#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Doing Things Legally >  >  Freelance Work Permit ! ( ? )

## KAPPA

I searched for prior threads but found none specific to " freelance.." that were current. 

 I'm told by the local foreigner work permit authority " freelance "  work permits are "permitted now _under a new law_, and are issued at discretion of the  indivdual  in charge of each office. " Such permits cost 3000. baht.  Anyone care to confirm or have any links to such a law ?
 This was in response to a Phuket Gazette_ Issues_  section question regarding working online but my question to the office pertained to teaching  a particular skill, like a yoga teacher, etc.

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## good2bhappy

heard you can get a 3 month one

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## papu0000

i'm here with my wife and got 2 months visa. now we want to stay here and work. How we can do it ? is there any company who can help us getting work permit? please advice...

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## steevee

I also saw the thread as indicated by the OP. I contacted the officer as named, Khun Boy, by phone and email, sent some photos of my work. He referred me to the Chiang Mai office of DOE. They new nothing of the permit at the time of my visit and I emailed the article and link to the officer later. I had a return phone call on Tuesday and she confirmed that, yes, there is new legislation allowing work permits for freelance artists. I am going back into the office early next week to complete the application and do whatever else is required. It will likely involve a visa change from O-A to O-B. I will report in full on the process when I have the work permit in my hands. I don't have the link handy but thanks goes to Teakdoor, as I had virtually given up hope of finding a legal way, short of setting up a business, to pursue my art openly. All the so called TV 'experts' replied in the negative to my inquiries on there. Anyone in Chiang Mai wanting the name of my contact at the DOE office please pm me.
updating with link to the original Teakdoor thread. https://teakdoor.com/doing-things-leg...-thailand.html

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## block2

Hi Steevee, Hi All,

1st time poster. Happened to come across this thread while doing a few google searches regarding freelance artists, visas and work permits for Thailand.

I am from the UK originally and have a BA Hons degree in Public Art And Design from the Royal Chelsea College Of Art & Design in London...specialision in Mosaics and Mural Painting....I have been approached by a couple of people in Bangkok and they are wanting me to set up a mosiac workshop for beginners....and have several students lined up ready to start the course.

Am I right in thinking if i contacted the DOE in Bangkok I should be able to get a 1 yr visa and work permit if I can show them proof of the above....also do you/anyone know what the cost would be for visa and work permit.

Regards In Advance

Jeff

PS..Thanks TeakDoor

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## Johannes

Could this really be true.. And there is a law like this have anyone ever got a artist visa? Do you have to show some sort of paper that you went to art school?
Very interested

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## steevee

Not much of an update yet. I was at Chiang Mai Dept. of Emp. again last week. It seems the new regulations are 'on the books' but not really 'in effect'. Apparently it is true that you can obtain such a work permit at the officer's discretion. I showed her numerous photos of my past work and also took along my diploma from art college and several newspaper articles from when I had an operating studio. You will have to prove your skill, that you have some qualifications. She told me it will take 1-2 months of further waiting until she can issue a work permit and that she accepts my 'qualifications'. You will need an O-B visa, I didn't discuss cost or length of validity of the visa. Good luck to all who try to get one. This really does represent a loosening of the restrictions on foreigners and an acceptance that we really can contribute to their society!

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## dirtydog

*"Freelance" Work Permits Not Available in Pattaya*

Recent reports of "Freelance" work permits being issued in Phuket may well be accurate. However, according to the Chonburi Labor Department contacted by PAPPA Co., Ltd. Law Office today there is no provision of a classification for issuing a work permit to a freelance person.  

The Chonburi office regulates workers in Pattaya as well and the chief officer said they are not issuing these type work permits, but here is and has been in place provisions allowing temporary employment with a work permit issued for 30-days for temporary work. 

As most national policies go, not all of the 78 provinces are ramped up at the same speed to get new policies on line and approved.  It may be true in Phuket and Bangkok and not allowed in Pattaya or Chiang Mai. 

T.I.T. (This Is Thailand)!

Drew Noyes of PAPPA Law explains, "The government is not as strict on enforcing work permit regulations as it was back in the days on 8 - 10% Thai unemployment now that the unemployment rate is below 1%. For most people working via internet at home they don't have anything to worry about. But if they collect money for work in Thailand they should still file a Thai tax return and pay the low tax rate for income. They won't get on any list for paying taxes."

"Anyone, Thai or foreign, who is self-employed or works in any capacity, including on the internet, as a magician or performer or sales agent and earns over 100,000 baht a year in income must file tax payments using thePhor Ngor Dor 90 form and pay on time or be fined," Drew Noyes added.

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## KAPPA

> heard you can get a 3 month one


  I was told it is initially for 3 months , until  proof of taxes is paid?

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## KAPPA

> I had a return phone call


 That's impressive, I've never had a Thai authority return any query by phone or  e mail.

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## keekwai

> "Anyone, Thai or foreign, who is self-employed or works in any capacity, including on the internet, as a magician or performer or sales agent and earns over 100,000 baht a year in income must file tax payments using thePhor Ngor Dor 90 form and pay on time or be fined," Drew Noyes added.


If I was working freelance and they don't give me a work permit. I won't give them any tax.

Fuck 'em.

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## Krumble

Can any one give the reference to this new legislation that is supposed to allow freelance work permits?  If it exists, it would be a ministerial regulation from the Labour Ministry.  It is possible that there is a new regulation that DOE offices are choosing to ignore and it would be helpful if the law firms quoted here could reference it, rather than giving out unverified and irrelevant statistics about Thai unemployment.

There are already regulations allowing temporary work permits for performers.  In addition, Americans are entitled to register with the Business Development Department as sole proprietors under the Treaty of Amity and Economic Cooperation and engage in any business that is not prohibited under the treaty.  In practice I don't know how easy it is to register but it is relatively easy for Americans to register "treaty companies" that are 100% owned by Americans.   Otherwise, a foreign sole proprietorship is normally viewed as prohibited by the Foreign Business Act because it is 100% foreign.

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## BigBaBoo

:Smile:  I read through the posts on this topic...and as far as I can see...nobody really knows much about it for sure yet.
But everyone ought to remember that new laws often have to reviewed and/or signed by the King or his representative here in Thaialnd before they are promulgated and become law.
Can't be sure, but if there is such a law, it may now be in that process. If so, we will just have to wait and see.
 :mid:

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## KAPPA

Phuket Issue and Answer: Do I need a work permit to teach horse riding?

“In  general, foreigners who want to work without forming their own company  can apply for a freelance work permit, but I cannot say exactly which  types of work will be approved and which will not.

However, just  for example, artists, artisans, singers, musicians, technicians,  reporters, among others, are some of the types of workers who are  usually allowed to work on a self-employed basis.

They need to file the application form and show us “relevant documents” and we will consider approval case-by-case.

If  your request is approved, it would be only temporarily, until we can  check your tax payment history when you renew your work permit.

For  a work permit for horse riding lessons, prepare whatever relevant  documents you have, such as any licenses or permits proving you own the  horse, photos and details of where the horse is stabled, a plan of which  customers you intend to serve, details of the location where you will  conduct your lessons and so on. Come in to the office in person to talk  with us.

And, if you find any foreigners working without a permit, please let us know by letter or fax.

We will investigate and prosecute any person found breaking the law.

Please call our work permit division for more information at 076-219660-1 ext13 and ask specifically for Khun Boy.

He is the officer who can offer basic information in English and Chinese.”
                         Friday,  March 25,  2011                        *                       Noppadol Ployudee, Phuket Provincial Employment Office chief* 
“Anyone, Thai or foreign, who is self-employed and earns over 100,000 baht a year in income must file tax payments using the _Phor Ngor Dor_ 90 form.

Anyone found not paying tax on their income will be ordered to pay outstanding tax as back taxes and they will be fined.”
                         Friday,  March 25,  2011

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## dirtydog

> In practice I don't know how easy it is to register but it is relatively easy for Americans to register "treaty companies" that are 100% owned by Americans.


They stopped new registrations a couple of years ago.





> Can any one give the reference to this new legislation that is supposed to allow freelance work permits?


Chonburi Labour Dept know nothing about it, I assume thats who PAPPA co.ltd contacted as their offices are in Pattaya in the Chonburi Province, not much point in them contacting other labour depts in other provinces.

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## Hannohan

Hi Steevee

Have you any news about the possibilities of getting a freelance work permit in Chiang Mai?

Thanks a lot,
Hannohan

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## dirtydog

> the possibilities of getting a freelance work permit in Chiang Mai?


This weeks Chiang Mai Mail.


Working legally in Thailand

By Shana Kongmun

The Helping Hands radio program from NBT radio station 93.25 was established in 2001 and started English language programming for the expat residents of Chiang Mai. In conjunction with this idea of offering local expats as much knowledge and information as possible, they organized a seminar with head of the Work Permit Department at the Labor Office Rhuchuchai Potha and Immigration Investigative Division officer Witthaya Singmanee at the Imperial Mae Ping on Wednesday, June 7, 2011.

The evening saw over 60 people attend dinner and a further 40 fill the room to hear their questions answered. Since it was a live broadcast on the radio, host Wouter Van der Stichel read the submitted questions aloud in English which were then translated into Thai by the Thai announcer.

Some time was spent offering up descriptions of the duties of their offices and the legal definition of work that is used by the Labor Department; "to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits". Additionally Khun Rhuchuchai pointed out that beyond the application, is the intent. If its clear there is intent to work with a goal to profit from that labor, either on the part of the foreigner or of the business, then that is also illegal.

A key question that was asked was in regard to performers who wish to perform a one off show for charity or otherwise. He said there is a temporary permit to work for not longer than 15 days, free from his office and considered on a case by case basis. But, he pointed out several times, you must apply for it. He reiterated that he supports those who wish to perform legally, and will be happy to approve such applications for these kinds of shows once applied for and considered on a case by case basis. Anything over the 15 days requires a legal work permit, which requires a sponsoring business or charitable organization. 

Volunteer work, he pointed out, requires a work permit, however, many charities are looking for volunteers and are willing to sponsor people and he suggested that he could offer guidance to those interested in such a work permit. For those who wish to work at multiple organizations, he pointed out that that initial work permit is required but it is possible to add an employer or job to the work permit once its issued. This would also apply to musicians who wish to play at different venues.

He noted that the office offers different periods of work permits, from a year for 3,100 baht to 6 months for 1,550 baht and 1-3 months for 750 baht. 

*He added that there is no freelance work permit*, that one must be sponsored by a company. However, when asked about specialists offering advice for overseas clients in overseas markets, he felt that so long as they did not offer that advice to Thais or foreigners in Thailand that would be acceptable.

A company started by a Thai person and employing and paying social security for 4 Thai employees can offer one work permit for a foreigner without needing the required 2 million baht in registered capital.

The Immigration officer, Khun Witthaya, addressed the issues of overcrowding at the Immigration office noting that they have requested budget for expansion but the money must come from the Ministry of Interior in order to expand the premises, or parking. He added, he knows there are problems and that queueing can be very long and recommended to people that until any funds are granted, they avoid visiting after a holiday. He pointed out that the ratio of officers to foreigners resident in Chiang Mai is quite high and that the officers work as fast as they can but, especially on busy days, they reach capacity and go no further. When asked if there were plans to allow a fast track service for longer term resident foreigners, Khun Witthaya said that he had asked the main office this question and the answer was a clear no, there was going to be no fast track option.

Retirement visas were introduced and he reiterated the qualifications; must be age 50 or over, and must have either 800,000 baht in a Thai bank or a pension of 65,000 baht a month that must be certified by the Consulate or a combination of both. He added that the money must be in the bank for a minimum of 3 months on the first application. Permanent residency was introduced and while he said applications are taken usually once a year, he is not sure when the next announcement will be. He said a non-immigrant visa for 3 years is necessary, and either working in Thailand, having invested in Thailand or married to a Thai national will offer eligibility to apply for permanent residency. Khun Rhuchuchai pointed out that if you obtain PR you must still get a work permit to work.

The issue of musicians being arrested for performing at jam sessions was discussed and it was said that if a complaint is made then they must investigate. Venues that offer regularly and publicly advertised shows are clearly obtaining a benefit from the performance and that this shows the intent to profit from it. Khun Rhuchuchai said, there is no problem with a spontaneous jam session, and a work permit is not needed for that. But at a regularly advertised show, the intent is clearly to make a profit from performers. He added they didnt just swoop in and arrest people but investigated the venues and visited them regularly to ensure that this was a regular occurrence.

He reiterated to performers that for one off shows a free, 15 day permission can be applied for at the Work Permit office. He said, you must request it properly that you perform and he has no problem granting permission for that.

As one of the organizers pointed out later, while not all questions were answered as comprehensively as some may have hoped, the officers did seem to make an honest attempt to answer all questions to the best of their knowledge and ability.

Chiangmai Mail Vol. X No. -[at][at] June 8 - June 15, 2011NEWS

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## Thetyim

> Anything over the 15 days requires a legal work permit,


So are his work permits illegal then ?





> Retirement visas were introduced and he reiterated the qualifications; must be age 50 or over, and must have either 800,000 baht in a Thai bank or a pension of 65,000 baht a month that must be certified by the Consulate or a combination of both.


No, that's an extension isn't it ?





> He added that the money must be in the bank for a minimum of 3 months on the first application.


No, only two months for the first extension.


Does this guy really work for the Immigration Department ?

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## steevee

No update at this time, I sent an email to the officer who has verbally approved my application 'in principle' I am not expecting a response and will phone next week. Information given at the seminar in CM directly contradicts information, quoted on Teakdoor, from the Phuket Dept. of Emp. So who/what to believe? The 'officials' at the seminar seemed unwilling to say anything other than quote chapter and verse what the current laws are, as written. The specific questions asked were danced around and no specific answers were given. Go to the Dept. of Emp. nearest you and see what happens, take a copy of the quote from the Phuket director and get them to follow up as there seems to be a lack of inter-office communication. If you're in Phuket, find out everything you can as this is where the information originated from.

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## Hannohan

Hi Steevee

Where is the Chiang Mai labor office, that you have gone to?

Did you ever ask them about online work done for a company based overseas with no connection to Thailand whatsoever, apart from the fact that you are sitting in your house using internet?

Thanks again,
Hannohan

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## dirtydog

> Did you ever ask them about online work done for a company based overseas with no connection to Thailand whatsoever





> He added that there is no “freelance” work permit, that one must be sponsored by a company. However, when asked about specialists offering advice for overseas clients in overseas markets, he felt that so long as they did not offer that advice to Thais or foreigners in Thailand that would be acceptable.


Chiang Mai Provincial Office Of Labour and Social Welfare Administration Office


Provincial Hall Flr 3, Chotana Rd.
A. Muang
Chiang Mai 50300
Thailand
Telephone: 053-890494-5
Fax: 053-890495

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## Hannohan

Thanks for the quotes dirtydog

But I was thinking where exactly on Chotana Road the office is? I have wasted too many days of my life already wondering around places trying to find something I didn't know exactly where was.

And yes, I know about the quote from that interview with the labor office guy. But I wondered, if anybody has asked labor office staff in a real can-I-do-this-or-not situation. In the interview he was just giving a loose, non-specific and most likely non-enthusiastic answer to a hypothetical question.

Hannohan

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## steevee

The Dept of Employment office is at City Hall. Easy to find on any map. North off Canal Rd. (ring road hwy 121) or north just past Lanna Golf course on Chotana Rd.

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## KAPPA

> No update at this time, I sent an email to the officer who has verbally approved my application 'in principle' I am not expecting a response and will phone next week. Information given at the seminar in CM directly contradicts information, quoted on Teakdoor, from the Phuket Dept. of Emp. So who/what to believe? The 'officials' at the seminar seemed unwilling to say anything other than quote chapter and verse what the current laws are, as written. The specific questions asked were danced around and no specific answers were given. Go to the Dept. of Emp. nearest you and see what happens, take a copy of the quote from the Phuket director and get them to follow up as there seems to be a lack of inter-office communication. If you're in Phuket, find out everything you can as this is where the information originated from.


 And that same person as quoted  in PG article is now stalling my  approval  with things like " How we can make sure taxes are paid, " So Nope. I think it is not thought through or possibly maybe really not even a " new rule."

 I applied for permit to work online such as in writing for travel magazines.  I have  Propers B visa Called and been told supervisor is out of office, repeatedly and no one  knows anything, and yes the phone manner is pretty bad, other  phones ringing right  in the mouthpiece and banging   it around . It is 3 weeks now since application submitted. 
 This will be a 20,000 permit  fee if granted.

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## steevee

I just came back from consulting with an attorney in CM who specializes in foreigner/immigration/business issues. Sakda Silprasit, Thai Lanna Law Office. anyone have any dealings with him? His best recommendation is to set up a 'Foundation' which really operates as a 'dummy' type of cover organization. You can be 'president' and will require 3 Thai 'officials' (which he can provide and who are involved by name only). Then you can then get a 'volunteer' visa to work within your 'foundation'. All transactions are undertaken as 'donations' and as a 'volunteer' you have no 'income' and no taxes are paid. He showed me a couple of examples run by Japanese. They have a newsletter or booklet, given free of charge to Japanese ex-pats and tourists, which is funded by advertising and generates income. You need to have an initial 200,000B on deposit and annually for audit purposes. His fees; 100,000B for set up and 10,000B for monthly administration assistance. Annual audit is 15,000B. He takes care of all official inquiries, inspections etc. Sounds like a sweet deal for him. But it may just be a very workable solution providing you can generate adequate 'donations' to provide yourself with adequate 'operating capital'. You will have no 800,000B to show every year and no border runs on a 'volunteer' visa, according to him.
 He wasn't optimistic about obtaining a 'freelance artists work permit'.

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## KAPPA

^   Illegal advice and outrageously priced. Typical Thailand  lawyer.

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## plasticmonkey

Greetings. This thread is interesting.

I would be interested to hear more about the "freelance artist work permit" as things develop. Anyone know if the application form is available somewhere online? How detailed is the application form?

Steevee I am looking for something similar to you in Chiang Mai, so your experience is very informative. Thanks for posting.

The dummy foundation doesn't sound like a very good deal (except for the lawyer).

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## dirtydog

> outrageously priced. Typical Thailand lawyer.


Are you stupid? Last time I was in the UK an off the shelf company cost 4,000baht, we used to pay 60,000baht for our companies formations, do you know why? If you don't then its better you just shut your gob because you are just showing how dumb you really are.

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## dirtydog

We also used a chartered accountant, he cost at least 5 times more than an ordinary accountant, he saved us more than any ordinary accountant could though, the sad thing about life is you pay for what you get.

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## KAPPA

OK you paid  60,000 baht for a company formation , so how does that make  100,000 not over priced?  
  BTW  Sam Fauma  of International Law in Phuket will set up a  ( real )  foundation for free. 
 The rip off G A M  Alliance told me 72,000 for a company. A Thai woman I know  who already has a foundation told me she did it herself for about 2000 baht. 







> Originally Posted by KAPPA
> 
> outrageously priced. Typical Thailand lawyer.
> 
> 
> Are you stupid? Last time I was in the UK an off the shelf company cost *4,000baht, we used to pay 60,000baht* for our companies formations, do you know why? If you don't then its better you just shut your gob because you are just showing how dumb you really are.

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## KAPPA

Update:
 Ok  24  emails over 3 months  later, and 5  separate visits and I'm told they aren't sure  about my investor B visa Being OK to work on.  This was excuse number 12.

 (I went on over to Immigration to ask for a letter or a phone call assuring the DOE the visa was valid and proper to work on, as I was told by the head  woman there some months ago.  She was adamant it isn't her department and she could not get involved  and promptly forgot how to speak English.)

 Other excuses have been  are I don't have a "certificate" ( to write? ) 
  They are concerned about what  I might write about as the "Security of the Nation is paramount" so  made me insert I would only "write positive things  about Thailand " on the application.  
 Oh yeah, I feel a book gurgling up along the lines of .. Two-Faced Liar-Land 

The home I rent  isn't the proper title, so the landlord isn't permitted to give permission. ( BS !! ) 
 Oh and the syphilis test would expire before they could decide so I would have to get a new one. 



 That pretty much cinched it that no way am I getting the permit.
  So I really don't know why they are lying about it,  other than they are Thai and can't help but lie and they enjoy harassing foreigners? 

  Disgusting wal-eyed bastard, too. Picking his nose and then fingering my passport.

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## plasticmonkey

Kappa, at which office / town did you apply?

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## TaintSam

> Update:
>  Ok  24  emails over 3 months  later, and 5  separate visits and I'm told they aren't sure  about my investor B visa Being OK to work on.  This was excuse number 12.
> 
>  (I went on over to Immigration to ask for a letter or a phone call assuring the DOE the visa was valid and proper to work on, as I was told by the head  woman there some months ago.  She was adamant it isn't her department and she could not get involved  and promptly forgot how to speak English.)
> 
>  Other excuses have been  are I don't have a "certificate" ( to write? ) 
>   They are concerned about what  I might write about as the "Security of the Nation is paramount" so  made me insert I would only "write positive things  about Thailand " on the application.  
>  Oh yeah, I feel a book gurgling up along the lines of .. Two-Faced Liar-Land 
> 
> ...


Any update?

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