#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Farming & Gardening In Thailand >  >  > Thailands Zoos and Animals >  >  Spaying attempt failed

## Sumocakewalk

We took our dog Bonnie to the local vet today to have the spaying procedure done. It is the same vet that we've taken another dog and a cat to and everything went as expected before. Not so in today's attempt.

  After we dropped Bonnie off for the surgery, we headed out to do some shopping and returned an hour later expecting her to be stitched up and ready to take home. When we got there, the vet informed us that he could not complete the procedure, even though he had opened her up and attempted it. The vet said there was too much fat and he could not reach the vital bits to do the task.

  Bonnie is a little over 20 kilos / 45 pounds and from the looks of her, she could stand to be a few kilos lighter, but she does not look extremely obese. This is the same dog I recently posted about that has a 'junk' food habit that we are working on curbing.

  This vet has been in the business for a few decades and said he had only come across one other case where he could not complete the procedure. At first he told us he was able to do enough to keep her from becoming pregnant, but that she would still have periods. Then after he stitched her up, the story changed to not being sure that she can't become pregnant. He only charged us for the drugs and not the labor. His suggestion, if we wanted to pursue the spaying further, is to contact a veterinary hospital such as Kasitsart to see if they can complete it.

  We took Bonnie home in her drugged state and now 8 hours later she is still sleeping it off. It may take a few days before she's back to a normal level of activity. She has not lost any of her appetite though, as she's been eager to eat even though she's still in a stupor.

  We'll have to make a decision at some point on how we want proceed. I'm not keen on her having to go through another surgery procedure soon. One alternative, at least temporarily, would be to give her more periodic injections to keep her from going into heat.

  We'll keep working on her food intake to try and curb the 'junk' food habit and not over feed her at home to try to get her weight down to a healthier level.

Here's a photo of Bonnie wrestling with the muzzle on the first day I put it on her before the daily walk. The reason for the muzzle is to try to keep her from scavenging for food while out and about**:

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## Gravesend Dave

Sorry mate but that Vet sounds like an incompetent fool!,not surprising though is it. 

Its a third world country the mans last job was probably a butcher 

Do yourself a favour  mate just make a secure enclosure where you can house the bitch away from any other dogs.

By that I mean any dogs you own as I expect you already keep her away from the neglected local diseased strays.

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## rickschoppers

It sounds like the vet may be lacking in surgical skills. They may only be used to working on the rail thin soi dogs and not quite sure how to circumvent any extra fat tissue. Your dog is not obese, but definitely bigger than the average Thai dog.

I would also try another vet after getting some recommendations. Vets are like doctors, there are some good ones, and then there are some that are not so good..

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## Necron99

> It sounds like the vet may be lacking in surgical skills. They may only be used to working on the rail thin soi dogs .



I would hazard that vets rarely work on "rail thin soi dogs" at all.
Most of their work would be on pampered and fat dogs if at all.
It's possible your dog, though not fat had some morphology that made the surgery complicated. Take it to a hospital where there is a wider degree of talent.

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## FloridaBorn

Also she shouldn't be eating full meals after anesthesia she is going vomit and with her being stitched and also sleeping a lot she could either vomit in her sleep and suffocate on it or if she vomits standing she will be really uncomfortable and possibly break stitches too..

Our cats were unable to ingest solid food for at least 48 hours post and were given a very bland (I'm told) can of special anesthesia recovery food to eat..

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## Pragmatic

A similar thing happened with my dog(s). I have/had 2 Golden retreivers and a Spanial, all bitches. The vet spayed them but was reluctant to do so as Thai vets like to let the bitch have at least one season before spaying, so he told me. That doesn't happen back in the UK so I insisted he spayed them as I didn't want to take the chance of them getting caught.
Anyways, some time after the spayings I noticed soi dogs sniffing around at the gate. I then checked the dogs and found one bitch in season. I took her back to the vet who admitted that he couldn't find all her reproduction organs, as they were so small, at the time of the spaying. He told me not to worry as he'd made sure the dog couldn't get pregnant anyway. I was lost for words and didn't really know what to say. So I just accepted his word and left. 
The bitch that comes into season will not let dogs mount her but just sort of teases them by being submissive. Hopefully that's been explained right?

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## piwanoi

When some bitches are spayed they still come in to season ,but they are infertile .

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## rickschoppers

I have always been told to let a female go through her first heat before having them spayed.

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## piwanoi

> I have always been told to let a female go through her first heat before having them spayed.


  Yeah Rick that appears to be the consensus of opinion ,and as far as I am aware there is no scientific evidence to prove that this line of thought is incorrect  :Smile:

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## Pragmatic

> Yeah Rick that appears to be the consensus of opinion ,and as far as I am aware there is no scientific evidence to prove that this line of thought is incorrect


Sorry to disagree mate but 


> When it's time to spay your dog. She can be spayed any time after *eight weeks* of age, and preferably before her first heat for the best health benefits. The first heat cycle occurs somewhere around *six months* of age, depending on the breed.


 dogtime.com/spaying-your-female.html

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## Sumocakewalk

> Hopefully that's been explained right?


Not much explanation was provided beyond what I mentioned in the OP. I have to rely on my wife conveying my questions and her translation of what the vet replied. Unfortunately, as has been shown too many times to count, that is not an easy or reliable method of getting information.

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## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by piwanoi
> 
> Yeah Rick that appears to be the consensus of opinion ,and as far as I am aware there is no scientific evidence to prove that this line of thought is incorrect
> 
> 
> Sorry to disagree mate but 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


  Thanks for making me aware  :Smile:

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## Sumocakewalk

Bonnie is doing OK this morning. She is up and walking about some and her appetite is still strong. No problems with her getting ill from after effects of the anesthesia.

She is about 9 months old now and was given an injection to keep her from going into heat about 2 months ago. Because of that, I don't think she has experienced a normal period so far. I'm not sure if that may have had some bearing on the vet's inability to find the vital bits.

From the info provided in some of the posts, there are varying opinions on the best time to go for the procedure. I thought bringing them in relatively young and while not in heat was OK.

If we decide to go for another spaying attempt, we'll do more research up front to find a place that can handle the procedure properly.

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## toddaniels

Spaying a dog or a cat is a relatively simple procedure and I'd bet dollars to durian that's not the most surgically astute vet out there in Nakhon Nowhere. From the picture it sure ain't an overly fat dog. 

Also piwanoi is not completely correct, a properly spayed female animal NEVER comes into real estrus again.  If it is spayed after it's sexually matured (as in had at least one heat cycle) it can exhibit symptoms of estrus but it can't get pregnant. 

To stop that from happening always get cats/dogs spayed BEFORE they ever come into heat the first time. If they never came into heat, they never will show false heat symptoms after getting spayed.

"rickschopper" struck on a myth which is believed by EVERY frickin' thai in this country, where by dogs/cats should either have one litter or go thru their first season before being spayed. 

I worked in the veterinary field for a good number of years and when doing volunteer work for stray cats/dogs, they were routinely spayed when they were as young as 12 weeks old. Never seemed to affect them. 

Of course tellin' a thai that they're wrong about a hare-brained idea or b/s myth they believe in is like pushing a rope.  

Bummer about your dog, and the back pedaling answer you got from the vet. Doesn't exactly instill confidence in me...

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## piwanoi

May I draw your attention to my post 223 on this thread , I

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## piwanoi

> May I draw your attention to my post 223 on this thread , I


 have a little soi dog who has not been in season for nearly 3 years by just injecting her with a max dose of Depo M https://teakdoor.com/thailands-zoos-a...my-dogs-9.html (Why Did Someone Poison My Dogs??)

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## Sumocakewalk

> May I draw your attention to my post 223 on this thread.  I have a little soi dog who has not been in season for nearly 3 years by just injecting her with a max dose of Depo M.
> https://teakdoor.com/thailands-zoos-a...my-dogs-9.html (Why Did Someone Poison My Dogs??)


_"the local Vet in Town sells it ,and hypodermics too ,it costs 50 baht  for a little bottle of about 150 Mg's the trade name is "Depo M" It says  on the bottle inter muscle ,but the Vet says it works just as well  under the skin ,I shoot a whole bottle in ,3 times in two week intervals  which appears to stop them from forever coming in season again , I kept  and raced Greyhounds back home for over 40 years and won many big  trophy races so I have quite a bit of knowledge on how to take care of  Dogs ,if you go to the vets just say Maa, Mi pen men and make an  injecting motion with one hand the first time you go ,they soon get the  message..."_

Piwanoi, thanks for pointing me to your post. I had actually seen that some time ago when reading through Rickschoppers' thread. I was a bit worried about  potential effects of giving a large dose of the hormone and that is one reason I went for the spaying alternative. It sounds like you've had a lot of experience with doing this. Are there any long term effects that might effect longevity or other health aspects?

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## FloridaBorn

> Bonnie is doing OK this morning. She is up and walking about some and her appetite is still strong. No problems with her getting ill from after effects of the anesthesia.
> 
> She is about 9 months old now and was given an injection to keep her from going into heat about 2 months ago. Because of that, I don't think she has experienced a normal period so far. I'm not sure if that may have had some bearing on the vet's inability to find the vital bits.
> 
> From the info provided in some of the posts, there are varying opinions on the best time to go for the procedure. I thought bringing them in relatively young and while not in heat was OK.
> 
> If we decide to go for another spaying attempt, we'll do more research up front to find a place that can handle the procedure properly.


I think November Rain is well versed on this topic related to Thailand, as I recall she was deeply involved in the soi dog rescue & spaying field there. Maybe there is a way to contact her by PM maybe it is relayed to her email?

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## FloridaBorn

> Are there any long term effects that might effect longevity or other health aspects?


Hormones are never good, there are cancers that develop along with many other potential side effects down the road, best to avoid for long term use in any case.

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## piwanoi

Hi Sumo ,I used it for years with my greyhounds and with no ill effects ,many when retired as pets lived to a ripe old age ,the only thing I did notice is that they "beefed up" a little due to effects of the male hormone , also it is very widely used throughout the greyhound racing fraternity and is quite legal to use , if you do not fancy giving your pet a big dose just take her to the vet every 3 months or so and he will sort it out for you  :Smile:

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## galaxytrash

> It sounds like the vet may be lacking in surgical skills. They may only be used to working on the rail thin soi dogs and not quite sure how to circumvent any extra fat tissue. Your dog is not obese, but definitely bigger than the average Thai dog.
> 
> I would also try another vet after getting some recommendations. Vets are like doctors, there are some good ones, and then there are some that are not so good..


not arguing your post at all, but at least the guy owned up to the fact he didn't succeed in the job. he lost a bit of face there.....not a lot of thais would admit to failure like that guy did.

so it could have been worse, i suppose.....

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## rickschoppers

Tod, I only reiterate what all vets have told me in the past when I go to spay a female in the US. Whether the logic is true of false, I can not personally tell you, but if you were educated at the University of California, Davis vet school, who am I to argue.

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## bobo746

Shovel over the back of the head.

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## Sumocakewalk

> Shovel over the back of the head.


I realize the vet may be a bit incompetent, but isn't that a little harsh?   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## bobo746

Sorry mate but dogs are just dogs they keep wankers of my 
property and protect my kid i dont get attached to them
when they go get a new one
As for the vet shovel over the head still seems like a plan

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## Kurgen

Get him to dig a hole first and save some ag.

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## mingmong

Sumo my Bitch had 2 heats and pregnant twice at 1 year old! decided to have Her spaded, but  when I saw the spade Op I was shocked! 
No Keyhole surgery but major scar, the Minny is only 5kg!  they must do the Op old school style, Im sure theres better ways to [less invasive surgery ]  operate.

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## piwanoi

> Sumo my Bitch had 2 heats and pregnant twice at 1 year old! decided to have Her spaded, but  when I saw the spade Op I was shocked! 
> No Keyhole surgery but major scar, the Minny is only 5kg!  they must do the Op old school style, Im sure theres better ways to [less invasive surgery ]  operate.


  Please read my post #17  :Smile:

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## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by mingmong
> 
> 
> Sumo my Bitch had 2 heats and pregnant twice at 1 year old! decided to have Her spaded, but  when I saw the spade Op I was shocked! 
> No Keyhole surgery but major scar, the Minny is only 5kg!  they must do the Op old school style, Im sure theres better ways to [less invasive surgery ]  operate.
> 
> 
>   Please read my post #17


  And also post #20.

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## Pragmatic

> No Keyhole surgery but major scar


Fcuk sake MM she had a hysterecetomy.

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## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by bobo746
> 
> 
> Shovel over the back of the head.
> 
> 
> I realize the vet may be a bit incompetent, but isn't that a little harsh?


 :rofl:   :rofl:   :rofl:  Honestly not harsh enough... But as Galaxy said, it could have been worse and you may not have known until the first unexpected litter. Shame through all of this you may have to put your poor pup through it all again and also risk things like infection and the like too. I'd say that a large part of the veterinary profession there is not even a "profession" but people who did some reading,talked to the local medicine man and maybe an internet search or 2 before claiming their trade experience and hanging the shingle.

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