#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Thailand and Asia News >  >  > World News >  >  Greek PM concedes election defeat

## Neo

Greek Prime Minister Antonis Samaras has conceded defeat to the  anti-austerity Syriza party in general elections, and said he hoped the  new government would not endanger the country's EU and euro membership.

"I hand over a country that is part of the EU and the euro. For the  good of this country, I hope the next government will maintain what has  been achieved," Samaras said in a brief address to reporters on Sunday  after exit polls pointed to a victory for the left-wing Syriza party.

Official results with 60 percent of polling stations counted showed  Syriza with 36 percent, far ahead of Prime Minister Antonis Samaras'  conservatives, who had 28 percent.

It is unclear whether Syriza, led by 40-year-old Alexis Tsipras, will  have enough seats to form a government alone, or if he will need the  support of a smaller party. Al Jazeera's Barnaby Phillips said it seemed  unlikely, but that Syriza would have its pick of smaller parties to  form a coalition with.

"This is what five years of austerity have done to Greek politics," he said.

"Undoubtedly it will send shock waves throughout Europe. Many will be  celebrating - left wing parties have sent representatives from all over  Europe to this happy throng."

Right wing parties also have a reason to celebrate the blow against the EU consensus, he added.

The far-right Golden Dawn and pro-European To Potami are in a  neck-and-neck race for third place with percentages between 6.4 and  eight percent respectively, according to polls. 

Victory for Syriza, which has led opinion polls for months, would  produce the first government in the eurozone openly committed to  cancelling the austerity terms of its EU and IMF-backed bailout  programme.

Tsipras on Sunday said Greece is "leaving behind disastrous austerity" and the so-called troika of creditors "is finished".

"The verdict of our people means the troika is finished," he said  referring to the country's international lenders the European Union, the  International Monetary Fund and the European Central Bank.

The Syriza win could represent another turning point for Europe after  last week's announcement by the European Central Bank of a massive  injection of cash into the bloc's flagging economy after years of trying  to clamp down on budgets and pushing countries to pass structural  reforms.

Nearly 9.8 million Greeks were registered to vote in the election.
*
Syriza appeal*

Al Jazeera's Phillips said the elections went smoothly without any problems.

"Greeks are experienced with elections as this is the fifth general  election in recent years, displaying the crisis-hit country's political  instability," Phillips said.

Syriza's policies have appealed to many groups hit by the economic crisis facing Greece.

"The majority of Greeks believe that austerity measures are imposed  on them by well-off northern European countries, particularly Germany,"  Phillips added.

After its most severe crisis since the fall of its military  government in 1974, Greece's economy has shrunk by some 25 percent,  thousands of businesses have closed, wages and pensions have been  slashed and unemployment among young people is over 50 percent.

At the same time, its massive public debt has climbed from 146  percent of gross domestic product in 2010 to 175.5 percent last year,  the second highest in the world.

Greek PM concedes election defeat - Al Jazeera English

----------


## Pragmatic

At last people are waking up to the Euro shite.

----------


## Neverna

> At last people are waking up to the Euro shite.


It will only get worse for the Greeks from here as it looks like they want to deliberately default on their debt. That's not a good idea, IMHO. 




> "The verdict of our people means the troika is finished," he said referring to the country's international lenders the European Union, the International Monetary Fund and the European Central Bank.

----------


## zygote1

If Greece defaults on its debt, then it is bye bye EU for them. Greece needs the EU as it  allowed Greece to benefit from free access to the EU. If that is lost;
- the Greeks will see their maritime industry hurt as they will be treated as foreign entities
- no more working in  the EU  for all those Greek expats. They'll have fun applying for work permits
- no more easy access to social benefit payments from the EU.

The Greeks borrowed all the money to pay for their easy lifestyle, all the while the Greeks didn't pay their taxes. Let them suffer now.  If they think its hard now, they aint seen nothing yet. Back to  3rd world status for the  Greeks.

----------


## helge

The Greek bailout money went to banks.

The banks lent out money to Greece, greek buissines and individuals

Their fault, their risk, their interest rates

Now the debt is in the name of the greek people, and they can not´and will not pay that bill. 

Greece might leave the Euro.

EU ?  No

----------


## kingwilly

> Back to 3rd world status for the Greeks.


I think so. Sadly.

----------


## Kurgen

I lifted this line from Sky News, interesting. No wonder Spiros got the hump.

"Many in Greece feel slashed public spending has hit the most vulnerable hardest, while leaving the tax evasion and corruption of the apparent elites untouched."

----------


## taxexile

Give Greece What It Deserves: Communism

Comment Now Follow Comments



UPDATE – “10 Ways the Greek People Can Save Themselves”

Once in a great while an

Give Greece what it deserves, Communism.

 It is time to deliver justice to a people, giving them what they truly deserve. Greece’s time has come.

It must be dawning on all but the most obtuse member of the banking elite that they can’t possibly steal enough money from German taxpayers to save the Greek government from default. Put it off, maybe, but collapse is inevitable.

Once this happens, what is the purpose of casting Greece into some selective temporary financial purgatory where the irrelevant Greek economy can continue embarrassing anyone foolish enough to lend their dysfunctional government a dime? Why not go all the way and give the country what many of its people have been violently demanding for almost a century?

Let them have Communism.

Hard as it is for young people to believe, Communism was once a major historical force holding billions of people in thrall. Outside the halls of elite universities, who still takes it seriously? Sure we have Cuba, where the Castro deathwatch is the last thing standing between that benighted penal colony and an inevitable makeover by Club Med. Then there is Venezuela, though hope is fading that Hugo Chavez will carry the Bolivarian banner much longer now that he’s busy sucking down FOLFOX cocktails while checking for signs that his hair is falling out. And frankly, a psychopathic family dynasty ruling a nation of stunted zombies hardly makes North Korea a proper Communist exemplar.

What the world needs, lest we forget, is a contemporary example of Communism in action. What better candidate than Greece? They’ve been pining for it for years, exhibiting a level of anti-capitalist vitriol unmatched in any developed country. They are temperamentally attuned to it, having driven all hard working Greeks abroad in search of opportunity. They pose no military threat to their neighbors, unless you quake at the sight of soldiers marching around in white skirts. And they have all the trappings of a modern Western nation, making them an uncompromised test bed for Marxist theories. Just toss them out of the European Union, cut off the flow of free Euros, and hand them back the printing plates for their old drachmas. Then stand back for a generation and watch.

The land that invented democracy used it to perfect the art of living at the expense of others, an example all Western democracies appear intent on emulating. Being the first to run out of other people’s money makes Greece truly ripe to take the next logical step beyond socialism.

As wrenching as it will be we can take comfort in the fact that Greece doesn’t have much of an economy to disrupt. The only Greek industry that’s worth a damn is tourism, rapidly collapsing as travelers get tired of being stranded by strikes while dodging Molotov cocktails. The rest of us can find plenty of other sources of lamb chops, yogurt, and olive oil. They crushed the concept of private property long ago under the burden of environmental, cultural, and social regulations that govern land use. Wouldn’t it be instructive to let them have a go at building a workers’ paradise to remind us what state enforced equality looks like?

Unlike neighboring Balkan nations that got to experience the joys of Communism after the Second World War, Greece was brought back from the brink by massive western intervention as well as a Churchillian side deal that obliged Stalin to butt out. The nasty civil war between the Greek Communist Party (the KKE) and government forces backed by Britain and the U.S. set the stage for decades of struggle between communist sympathizers who never gave up the dream, and right wing juntas determined to rule by force. The uneasy peace that has existed since the colonels were booted merely masks underlying tensions as every Greek worries, is someone else working fewer hours than I am?

How Greece conned its way into the European Union while hard working Turkey was left begging is a testament to the astute diplomats in Brussels, no doubt consulting their playbook on what dodge they can conjure up next to stick someone else with the bill. Why the E.U. extended credit to a nation whose governments have been in a chronic state of default since the country gained independence from the Ottoman Empire in 1832 is a fitting subject for a News of the World expose. Perhaps they were being advised by Fannie Mae.

So despite the frantic meetings, the tragicomedy nears its final act. It’s time for the global financial industry to pull up stakes and go home before more innocent bank employees get immolated. If you don’t want the real contagion to spread, that is the disease of believing you can perpetually consume more than you produce, leave Greece to the Greeks and let the bankers take their lumps.

As difficult as it is for a Greek-American like myself to admit, resting on 2,000 year old laurels is a stale act. While few cultures can proudly look back on as many achievements in the arts, drama, athletics, philosophy, rhetoric, and architecture that were the glory of Greece, it’s time for modern Greeks to take a good hard look at themselves. What have they done for the world lately?  More importantly, what are they prepared to do to help themselves? If they can’t face that question then it’s time to sing the Internationale.

Give Greece What It Deserves: Communism - Forbes

----------


## helge

A bit old ?

----------


## kingwilly

from 2011. 

but topical nonetheless.

----------


## helge

> from 2011. 
> 
> but topical nonetheless.


Ofcourse it is topical, and Hugo is dead

Old

----------


## OhOh

> At last people are waking up to their global raping.


Extended it a little.


It had to happen. Many, "secure", political parties will be looking over their own shoulders. 

Sharpen up your guillotines.

----------


## helge

Spain is next

----------


## Bettyboo

> unemployment among young people is over 50 percent


That's terrible. Surely a federal style 'government' would target this problem specifically and look to create jobs for them???




> The Greeks borrowed all the money to pay for their easy lifestyle, all the while the Greeks didn't pay their taxes.


This is a framed discourse which is just untrue for the vast majority of Greeks. The idea that all Greeks were roaming around having a great lifestyle nonchalantly avoiding taxes is ridiculous.

Greece is an example of failed crony capitalism, corruption by the 'elites' and abuses by the EU who work for bankers and crony capitalists against the populous.

It'll be interesting to see where it goes from here, but the EU is: 1) totally corrupt; 2) a total failure, and it will fall to pieces, just a matter of when and how, imho...

----------


## Warrior

25% unemployment, 50% youth unemployment 
the economy shrunk 25% in the past years
average income is 600 euro a month
...

No wonder they voted extreme.

----------


## Norton

> Surely a federal style 'government' would target this problem specifically and look to create jobs for them???


Job creation takes money. Money the gov doesn't have and can't borrow. 

The average Greek is fed up. No wonder they booted a gov that has done nothing to make things better. They'll boot the new gov if they fail to deliver as well.

Good for them but decades of corrupt gov mismanagement has created a too broke to fix situation.

Greek recovery will take years. No quick fix in sight.

----------


## buriramboy

Iceland defaulted and is doing rather well now, Greece should have defaulted on their debt payments years ago and left the Euro and their people would only have been subjected to a year or 2 of shit as opposed to 6+ and ongoing.

----------


## Necron99

EU reaping what it has sown.
They should never have let all these 2nd world fiscal basket cases join in the first place.

When was the last time you picked up something that wasn't an olive and it said "Made in Greece"

----------


## Takeovers

> Iceland defaulted and is doing rather well now, Greece should have defaulted on their debt payments years ago and left the Euro and their people would only have been subjected to a year or 2 of shit as opposed to 6+ and ongoing.


Iceland had a functioning economy and ran into problems on a technicality. They do well. If Greece defaults and leaves the Euro they will be on a similar model as Haiti. Depending on food aid for decades to avoid hunger revolts.

----------


## Chittychangchang

On the plus side it means really cheap holidays to Greece! Sure i've still got a few Drachmas lying around..

----------


## thaimeme

> At last people are waking up to the Euro shite.


Might be a disguised blessing....

----------


## buriramboy

> Originally Posted by buriramboy
> 
> 
> Iceland defaulted and is doing rather well now, Greece should have defaulted on their debt payments years ago and left the Euro and their people would only have been subjected to a year or 2 of shit as opposed to 6+ and ongoing.
> 
> 
> Iceland had a functioning economy and ran into problems on a technicality. They do well. If Greece defaults and leaves the Euro they will be on a similar model as Haiti. Depending on food aid for decades to avoid hunger revolts.


That's what the scaremongers would like the Greek people to believe so they can convince them that the best option is to live their lives like slaves in poverty but thankfully a large number of the population has seen through the bullshit and voted for a different way. Everyone said at the time no one would lend to Iceland again, look at their credit rating now.

----------


## Bettyboo

I don't know Greece well, but find it hard to believe they have no economy.

I went to Athens once, it was a functioning city along with world acclaimed tourist sites. I went to Corfu another time, and it was great - lots of tourists helping the local community to make a living.

So, the tourism sector is large, 20% of GDP, employs a large % of the population (20% or so) and is valued at around 40billion euro per year.
SETE | The Importance of Tourism for Greece

Some general numbers and charts on this site, not the last few years, but I don't see why the numbers would be drastically different (could be wrong on that...).


macro.tragedy: How is Greek tourism holding up ?


Actually, looks healthy:

_Greek tourism revenues should rise 13 percent to a record 13 billion euros in 2014, the head of the main industry body said on Tuesday, boosting chances the country will finally emerge from its deep recession next year.

Tourism is the biggest cash earner for Greece's economy, accounting for about 17 percent of its 185 billion-euro economic output. It employs one in five Greeks.
_Record tourist receipts next year may help end Greece's long recession | Reuters


So, that's 20% of Greece's finances sorted, ok... What about the rest?

Agriculture, at about 5%, has a very high quantity of organic farming, that's good - but not a massive sector. Employs nearly 15% of the population. Not bad.

Industry at 15% is distinctly average, not very diversified and could be improved - certainly some innovation and direction needed here, to be supported by government policy...

Shipping is massive, obviously very corrupt and open to manipulation of international laws, etc, but employs 5% of the population and brings in about 15 billion euros per year - healthy, and that business isn't gonna dry up because (outside of Germany, hmmm...) there are no European fleets that can handle anything like the business of Greece.

Economy of Greece - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Seems to be some solid numbers and industries, obviously I've only scratched the surface. Looks to be massive corruption in shipping, and the entry to the EU was used to rape the nation (i.e. getting loans the people will pay, but that money being syphoned off by some obviously mega-rich shipping magnets and others.


With good management, that country could leave the EU, survive for a couple of years then be quickly back on its feet again. We're not talking about a country that war-torn or lacking investment over decades like a former soviet block country (there's clearly been massive investment, too big, during the last 10+ years...).

----------


## Neo

As has already been mentioned the bailout packages across Europe along with quantative easing have served only to make the rich richer while the burden of repayment has been on the general population, it's a giant ponzi scheme that's fraudulent in it's premise. Sure times are going to be tough for Greece, but with the repayments at 175% of GDP, zero investment and civil unrest it could not get much worse. It is austerity that has held the country back, as it continues to do across countries still under the unelected Troika regime.

----------


## helge

> EU reaping what it has sown.
> They should never have let all these 2nd world fiscal basket cases join in the first place.


You are right

Let's dump the Irish

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Troy

I quite liked the idea of the Greek ex finance minister to use a form of electronic cash as a means of keeping tabs on finances. Issue everyone in Greece with an electronic cash card and all income and payments within Greece use the system. Outsiders can buy credit within the country in a similar way to buying food cards in a Thai mall. 
Earnings and tax would be fully transparent as would foreign exchange/money going abroad. It would be easy to double check figures on anyone going over a pre defined threshold.
I imagine the middle classes and above would detest such transparency...

----------


## can123

> Issue everyone in Greece with an electronic cash card and all income and payments within Greece use the system. Outsiders can buy credit within the country in a similar way to buying food cards in a Thai mall.


Bloody marvellous idea ! And, an even better idea would be for the Germans to lend them the money to buy the cards.

----------


## stroller

What do you mean 'lend'?

The greedy Nazi foks want to get their money back eventually, do they?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Dapper

The IMF is majority owned and thus controlled by Nat Rothschild.

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Warrior

The IMF has yesterday released a statement saying that 


> Greeces public debt has become highly unsustainable.


It further says that 


> Greeces debt can now only be made sustainable through debt relief measures that go far beyond what Europe has been willing to consider so far.


http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/...15/cr15186.pdf

That's a real blow in the face of the Greek PM who needs to defend the deal in Greek Parliament - and also to any other EU country's parliaments where they have to vote on the deal.

----------


## panama hat

. . . imagine no-one would help the sleazeballs . . .

----------


## pseudolus

Greece should do the 2 following actions if they really want to stay inside the Eurozone. 

1 - 100% import tax on all German and French goods. 
2 - Nationalise all of the Greek Tycoons shipping lines and business who have never paid one cent of tax.

Job done.

----------


## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by stroller
> 
> Perhaps there are contemporary thinkers as well as the historical ones you've rejected?
> 
> 
> I hope that is the case. Strangely silent here, however. Not even a hint of an alternative to capitalism. Perhaps, I am not the stupid one after all ?


What form of capitalism do you refer to.
How many head of cattle you own, or state controlled capitalism [ communist China],
It's a word not a cast in stone political ideology and Greece is a capitalist society already.
If anything, the ECB intervention, as with the Fed, BofE interventions during the GFC, is anti free market and anti capitalism.

----------


## HermantheGerman

> Greece should do the 2 following actions if they really want to stay inside the Eurozone. 
> 
> 1 - 100% import tax on all German and French goods.
> 2 - Nationalise all of the Greek Tycoons shipping lines and business who have never paid one cent of tax. 
> 
> Job done.


*Especially Victor Restis & Co.*  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Bettyboo

*Greece debt crisis: IMF attacks EU over bailout*
Greece debt crisis: IMF attacks EU over bailout - BBC News

_Or to be tediously literal, the IMF has made it clear that it does not wish to participate in any further Greek bailout, unless Germany and the rest drop their vehement opposition to big write-offs of Greek debt._

As I've said all along, debt restructuring is a requirement. The private banks should be held responsible for their bad loans. 

_Its analysis released on Tuesday night pointed to Greek government debt reaching a peak of close to 200% of GDP or national income over the next two years, which it called "highly unsustainable"._

Exactly as I said, and exactly the number I used...


Now, for some propaganda followers to argue how wonderful the German form of 'capitalism' is and the IMF analysis is wrong. Ignoring the simple and basic facts that:

1) the same bailout measures have failed for the last few years and have had disastrous results.

2) When in debt and the economy being destroyed, debt at 175% of GDP, adding more debt to a tone of 200% GDP can only make the situation worse.

3) Repaying the loan and additionally privatizing your assets (in this case, selling your family silver to the Yermins, and paying the loan back too!) is criminal.


I have not seen any source or economist support James' notion. No debt is being written off here - it's being paid back doubly because the Greek PM has been bullied and petrified by the Germans. &, yes, it is the Germans at the heart of it, empire building.

----------


## pseudolus

> *Greece debt crisis: IMF attacks EU over bailout*
> Greece debt crisis: IMF attacks EU over bailout - BBC News
> 
> *Or to be tediously literal, the IMF has made it clear that it does not wish to participate in any further Greek bailout, unless Germany and the rest drop their vehement opposition to big write-offs of Greek debt.*
> 
> As I've said all along, debt restructuring is a requirement. The private banks should be held responsible for their bad loans. 
> 
> _Its analysis released on Tuesday night pointed to Greek government debt reaching a peak of close to 200% of GDP or national income over the next two years, which it called "highly unsustainable"._
> 
> ...


VEry nice of them, especially as they have no money, never lent money to anyone, and only put a few digits in a computer screen.

----------


## Bettyboo

> never lent money to anyone, and only put a few digits in a computer screen


Much of the global financial system is fake, as we know. Very nice for entities like the Federal Reserve to be able to have no money/gold per se, but push a button, create money and be paid real money in interest for doing so. Very nice for banks to create derivative and other deals at 10 times the worth/assets of their bank, etc. The system has been criminalized and is unsustainable which is why the cronies have developed a new way of making it work - pass private bank debts onto the tax payer...

----------


## Bettyboo

_"The schism between the IMF and the Eurozone has been brewing for some time, even during the referendum. Three days before the actual vote we heard the first signs that the IMF was pushing for debt relief, very much against the wishes of Angela Merkel. Obviously that view within the IMF is very, very public indeed," said Dominic Rossi, chief investment officer of Fidelity Investments on Wake Up to Money._


_Has the IMF blown up Greece's rescue, asks BBC economics editor, Robert Peston? He says "the IMF has made it clear that it does not wish to participate in any further Greek bailout, unless Germany and the rest drop their vehement opposition to big write-offs of Greek debt". Robert also points out that the questions raised by the IMF will "make it much harder for the government of Alexis Tsipras to persuade the Athens parliament to back painful austerity measures"._


_Late on Tuesday the International Monetary Fund, led by Christine Lagarde, released a report that said: "Greece's debt can now only be made sustainable through debt relief measures that go far beyond what Europe has been willing to consider so far." Also in the IMF report:

1. It doubts that Greece can achieve budget surplus targets.

2. It questions Greek growth forecasts.

3. It says root problems in the banking sector have not been tackled._
http://www.bbc.com/news/live/business-33480291

The Germans and others moved private bank debts to the taxpayer - illegally - and for the sake of their cronyism they have to face their tax payers. As per the corrupt bank bailouts in the UK a couple of years ago, private banks must be held accountable for their bad loans, not the taxpayer...

----------


## HermantheGerman

> *Greece debt crisis: IMF attacks EU over bailout*
> Greece debt crisis: IMF attacks EU over bailout - BBC News
> 
> _Or to be tediously literal, the IMF has made it clear that it does not wish to participate in any further Greek bailout, unless Germany and the rest drop their vehement opposition to big write-offs of Greek debt._
> 
> As I've said all along, debt restructuring is a requirement. The private banks should be held responsible for their bad loans. 
> 
> _Its analysis released on Tuesday night pointed to Greek government debt reaching a peak of close to 200% of GDP or national income over the next two years, which it called "highly unsustainable"._
> 
> ...


Wow Betty you're a genius !!! How did you figure that out ????
Does anybody here on TD have a loan to be paid off ?
Betty is going to pay it off for you! 
So you can continue your life and take up a new loan.

What's up your ass with these germans ? Why should the german tax payer have to pay for the loans of the greek people. The Brits already said they are not going to pay ! So why should the germans.

It's the greek system and years of greek lifestyle that have caused this. Stop with your kindergarten economics and get real !!!!

Like I said: "You're a bloody GENIUS".


Th

----------


## Bettyboo

> What's up your ass with these germans ? Why should the german tax payer have to pay for the loans of the greek people.


They shouldn't. The private German banks that made the bad loans should.




> The Brits already said they are not going to pay !


Quite right too. Who's the stupid one???




> It's the greek system and years of greek lifestyle that have caused this. Stop with your kindergarten economics and get real !!!!


Take it up with the IMF and their 'kindergarten economics'... In the mean time, keep following the propaganda as the Yermin banks and Yermin Euro-cronies keep bulding their trillions in their havens from your tax money...

----------


## pseudolus

> Does anybody here on TD have a loan to be paid off ?


The Greeks never received a penny. It was all sent to Bankers owned mostly by German French and American bankers. 





> Why should the german tax payer have to pay for the loans of the greek people.


Why should the Greek people have to die on the streets to protect German banks and the Nazi EU dream?

----------


## harrybarracuda



----------


## can123

> What form of capitalism do you refer to.


Capitalism is capitalism and will always be with us. Bettyboo's senseless comments blame the lenders for the Greek crisis. Nobody insisted that the Greeks borrowed and they did so in the knowledge that they could never repay. This is tantamount to theft and if there is any blame to be attributed it must be the Greeks who are the guilty party.

There is nothing which can excuse the behaviour of the Greeks and they have sponged off the rest of Europe.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> What form of capitalism do you refer to.
> 
> 
> Capitalism is capitalism and will always be with us. Bettyboo's senseless comments blame the lenders for the Greek crisis. Nobody insisted that the Greeks borrowed and they did so in the knowledge that they could never repay. This is tantamount to theft and if there is any blame to be attributed it must be the Greeks who are the guilty party.
> 
> There is nothing which can excuse the behaviour of the Greeks and they have sponged off the rest of Europe.


"The Greeks" did not do this. A handful of Greeks did it.




> Greek Debt Crisis: How Goldman Sachs Helped Greece to Mask its True Debt
> 
> By Beat Balzli
> 
> Goldman Sachs helped the Greek government to mask the true extent of its deficit with the help of a derivatives deal that legally circumvented the EU Maastricht deficit rules. At some point the so-called cross currency swaps will mature, and swell the country's already bloated deficit.


Greek Debt Crisis: How Goldman Sachs Helped Greece to Mask its True Debt - SPIEGEL ONLINE

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> What form of capitalism do you refer to.
> 
> 
> Capitalism is capitalism and will always be with us. Bettyboo's senseless comments blame the lenders for the Greek crisis. Nobody insisted that the Greeks borrowed and they did so in the knowledge that they could never repay. This is tantamount to theft and if there is any blame to be attributed it must be the Greeks who are the guilty party.
> 
> There is nothing which can excuse the behaviour of the Greeks and they have sponged off the rest of Europe.


"The Greeks" did not do this. A handful of Greeks did it.




> Greek Debt Crisis: How Goldman Sachs Helped Greece to Mask its True Debt
> 
> By Beat Balzli
> 
> Goldman Sachs helped the Greek government to mask the true extent of its deficit with the help of a derivatives deal that legally circumvented the EU Maastricht deficit rules. At some point the so-called cross currency swaps will mature, and swell the country's already bloated deficit.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> But in the Greek case *the US bankers devised a special kind of swap with fictional exchange rates*. That enabled Greece to receive a far higher sum than the actual euro market value of 10 billion dollars or yen. In that way Goldman Sachs secretly arranged additional credit of up to $1 billion for the Greeks.
> ...


Greek Debt Crisis: How Goldman Sachs Helped Greece to Mask its True Debt - SPIEGEL ONLINE

----------


## Bettyboo

The Greeks should never have been lent money, and they should not, NOT, be lent any more money.

The greedy banks and their crony politicians lent money knowing that if they made profit they'd keep that profit, but if they made a loss then the loss would be passed to the taxpayer. This is illegal. This is not capitalism, it is crony capitalism.

The current federalism, spearheaded by Germany has more to do with communism than capitalism. This dual insanity is both illegal and incredibly damaging to the people of Europe.

Let's get one point very clear for the 'challenged' folk on this thread: DO NOT LEND GREECE ANY MORE MONEY _ THEY CANNOT PAY IT BACK!!!

----------


## Warrior

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> What form of capitalism do you refer to.
> 
> 
> Capitalism is capitalism and will always be with us. Bettyboo's senseless comments blame the lenders for the Greek crisis. Nobody insisted that the Greeks borrowed and they did so in the knowledge that they could never repay. This is tantamount to theft and if there is any blame to be attributed it must be the Greeks who are the guilty party.
> 
> There is nothing which can excuse the behaviour of the Greeks and they have sponged off the rest of Europe.


You missed James' point in my opinion:

Red is red? You didn't know there are different shades of red?
Christianity is Christianity? You did't notice there are shades of Christianity, e.g. Protestants, Catholics?

Similar, there are different shades of capitalism.

----------


## can123

> The Greeks should never have been lent money, and they should not, NOT, be lent any more money.


I agree. They have proved that they are not trustworthy. Bankruptcy, Grexit and drachma is the only solution.

----------


## jamescollister

> Capitalism is capitalism and will always be with us. Bettyboo's senseless comments blame the lenders for the Greek crisis.


Is that not the nature of capitalism, you risk your capital for a return.
If you invest in a company and it goes broke, should the employees or the directors be held responsible.
Your way of thinking means the sub prime melt down was caused by poor people getting mortgages, not by banks trying to make massive profits.

----------


## can123

> Red is red? You didn't know there are different shades of red?
> Christianity is Christianity? You did't notice there are shades of Christianity, e.g. Protestants, Catholics?
> 
> Similar, there are different shades of capitalism.


Yes, there are different shades of red but capitalism is capitalism. Like a woman cannot be a little bit pregnant, capitalism is indivisible. I acknowledge that the mechanisms of a capitalist society are many and varied. Greece is an extreme example in which a nation "borrowed" money with no intention of paying it back and the fundamental issue of trust, as referred to by Merkel, has not been addressed.

----------


## can123

> Is that not the nature of capitalism, you risk your capital for a return.
> If you invest in a company and it goes broke, should the employees or the directors be held responsible.
> Your way of thinking means the sub prime melt down was caused by poor people getting mortgages, not by banks trying to make massive profits.


I understand what you are trying to say. Nevertheless, there has be a system of lending and by attributing blame to the banks you seem to be saying that there should be no such thing as lending. You offer no alternative to the present system and if we get rid of the banks we cannot exist. 

I just want a hint of realism here. There is absolutely no point in blaming anybody in the absence of a better way of managing the economy.

----------


## can123

This is a nice sensible article. I agree with Mr Carney and the IMF but feel angry that the Greeks will be allowed to get away with what is essentially theft. Progress has to be made and at least part of the debt written off or the whole of it by Grexit.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33527052

Greece should never have entered the EEU, they have been thoroughly bad members and the rest of Europe would be better off without them. Yes, the rest of Europe is important too. Other human beings count and this is not all about the Greeks.

----------


## pseudolus

> DO NOT LEND GREECE ANY MORE MONEY _ THEY CANNOT PAY IT BACK!!!


Funny how the Ukrainian nazi scum pushed into power by the US in their coup there were told by the IMF "heh, we know you can not pay it back, but no worries, have as much cash as you like".

----------


## Boon Mee

> Originally Posted by Bettyboo
> 
> DO NOT LEND GREECE ANY MORE MONEY _ THEY CANNOT PAY IT BACK!!!
> 
> 
> Funny how the Ukrainian nazi scum pushed into power by the US in their coup there were told by the IMF "heh, we know you can not pay it back, but no worries, have as much cash as you like".


Simply trying for that utopian socialist dream world where money grows on trees...dancing unicorns in the fields and campfire singing kumbaya dreamers in positions of 'responsibility'...

----------


## jamescollister

> Simply trying for that utopian socialist dream world where money grows on trees.


If your are a big bank money does grow on trees and if the trees catch fire, the taxpayers will cover your loses with interest.

Private banks are there for profit and should not be covered by taxpayers, the west is a private banking system, they should sink or swim on their own merits.

----------


## panama hat

> Quite right too. Who's the stupid one???


So, for the Brits to say no is ok . . . for the Germans to do the same is akin to a Fourth Reich taking over Europe while jackboot-stomping little, defenseless, blameless nations

Your anti-German rhetoric is making you sound the fool here, BB




> The Greeks should never have been lent money, and they should not, NOT, be lent any more money.


The country would have sunk, people would have starved to death and chaos would have occurred.

Nice world you propose




> If you invest in a company and it goes broke, should the employees or the directors be held responsible.


Of curse the directors should . . . and of they were directors voted in by the employees then they should as well - what on earth makes you think it should be otehrwise?

----------


## Bettyboo

> The country would have sunk, people would have starved to death and chaos would have occurred.


This is what the propaganda from the scaremongers would have you believe - they said the same about Iceland...

The British banks, for once, were sensible and didn't lend too much and won't be lending more. The German and French and Italian banks made crazy loans which could never be paid back then illegally passed that debt onto their taxpayers - crony capitalism at work.

I really can't see what's hard to understand.

The federalistas in German brought them into Europe to gain power over them and that is exactly what has happened. The British Empire did it for hundreds of years. The Americans have been at it for decades, and the Germans are at it too...

----------


## panama hat

> This is what the propaganda from the scaremongers would have you believe


Nope, this is reality.  Just explain to me how, on both macro and micro-economic levels, supermarket shelves would have filled up with goods . . . from where?  Paid for by what?




> they said the same about Iceland...


No, they didn't

----------


## Bettyboo

The economy is far worse off now than it was before the first bailout - economy shrinking, high unemployment, etc.

There is no end of explications and detailing of this on the internet; if you choose to stick your neck in the uber-sand that's your choice...

Loan repayments pilled up at rates that can NEVER be repaid (exactly as the IMF and the world's leading economists are and have been saying...) are what is destroying Greece. 

Here are some comments and links to get you started:

_An estimated 90 percent of bailout funds have gone to financial institutions – not to help Greek residents_

_So where did all that money from Greece’s first two rescue packages go? Back to creditors, mostly.
“This is a giant creditor-debtor standoff,” said Mark Blyth, a professor of political economy at Brown University and the author of “Austerity: The History of a Dangerous Idea.” “The creditors have been made whole.”_

_Greek economics writer Yannis Mouzakis calculated that close to 11 percent of the funds, or 27 billion euros, went to the government’s “operational needs,” significantly less than was spent on maturing debt obligations (81.3 billion euros) and recapitalizing Greek banks (48.2 billion euros)._
Greek Bailout Money Went to Banks, Not Greece | Al Jazeera America



_Only a small fraction of the €240bn (£170bn) total bailout money Greece received in 2010 and 2012 found its way into the government’s coffers to soften the blow of the 2008 financial crash and fund reform programmes. Most of the money went to the banks that lent Greece funds before the crash._

_The troika of lenders first stepped in during the spring of 2010 after Athens could no longer afford to finance €310bn borrowed from a wide range of major European banks._

_€140bn has been spent on paying the original debts and interest. Less than 10% of the bailout money was left to be used by the government for reforming its economy and safeguarding weaker members of society._
Where did the Greek bailout money go? | World news | The Guardian


_Greece's champions, including Nobel-winning economists Paul Krugman and Joseph Stiglitz, have said repeatedly that the Greek bailouts favored foreign lenders. "We should be clear: Almost none of the huge amount of money loaned to Greece has actually gone there," Stiglitz wrote in a recent column. "It has gone to pay out private-sector creditors – including German and French banks. Greece has gotten but a pittance, but it has paid a high price to preserve these countries' banking systems."_

_A lot of the money from the two Greek bailouts went to banks, including local ones and the subsidiaries of foreign banks operating in Greece. Yet lenders are now the weakest link in the Greek economy. The European Central Bank has only to reduce liquidity assistance or demand more collateral, and the country's financial system will run out of euros. So what happened to all that bailout money?_ 

_In reality, it's not hard to figure out how much money foreign banks pulled out, and how much they lost, in the course of the two bailouts. According to data from the Bank of International Settlements, at the end of 2009, total international claims on Greece stood at $177.9 billion, $96.6 billion of it on the public sector (those were investments in Greece's already swollen government debt). By the end of 2011, before the second bailout and Greece's big debt restructuring, international claims were down to $73.3 billion, $40.8 billion of it on the public sector. This means that the first bailout, agreed in May 2010 -- 110 billion euros ($120 billion) from the European Union and the International Monetary Fund -- did indeed help foreign banks reduce their exposure to Greek public-sector debt, by $55.8 billion._ 
How Greece's[at]Bank Bailout Benefited Greeks - Bloomberg View


It's not difficult to follow the money trail if you decide to stop slopping up the propaganda... The banks gave themselves money and are asking for the Greek taxpayer to pay it back. The same as happened in the UK and US.

----------


## Neo

> Simply trying for that utopian socialist dream world where money grows on trees...dancing unicorns in the fields and campfire singing kumbaya dreamers in positions of 'responsibility'...


It sounds like a Kochite paradise.  ::chitown::

----------


## Dapper

The IMF is a "global group"
 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Here's a list of world wide banks owned by the Rothschilds (many by proxy obviously)

 Afghanistan: Bank of Afghanistan
 Albania: Bank of Albania
 Algeria: Bank of Algeria
 Argentina: Central Bank of Argentina
 Armenia: Central Bank of Armenia
 Aruba: Central Bank of Aruba
 Australia: Reserve Bank of Australia
 Austria: Austrian National Bank
 Azerbaijan: Central Bank of Azerbaijan Republic
 Bahamas: Central Bank of The Bahamas
 Bahrain: Central Bank of Bahrain
 Bangladesh: Bangladesh Bank
 Barbados: Central Bank of Barbados
 Belarus: National Bank of the Republic of Belarus
 Belgium: National Bank of Belgium
 Belize: Central Bank of Belize
 Benin: Central Bank of West African States (BCEAO)
 Bermuda: Bermuda Monetary Authority
 Bhutan: Royal Monetary Authority of Bhutan
 Bolivia: Central Bank of Bolivia
 Bosnia: Central Bank of Bosnia and Herzegovina
 Botswana: Bank of Botswana
 Brazil: Central Bank of Brazil
 Bulgaria: Bulgarian National Bank
 Burkina Faso: Central Bank of West African States (BCEAO)
 Burundi: Bank of the Republic of Burundi
 Cambodia: National Bank of Cambodia
 Came Roon: Bank of Central African States
 Canada: Bank of Canada – Banque du Canada
 Cayman Islands: Cayman Islands Monetary Authority
 Central African Republic: Bank of Central African States
 Chad: Bank of Central African States
 Chile: Central Bank of Chile
 China: The People’s Bank of China
 Colombia: Bank of the Republic
 Comoros: Central Bank of Comoros
 Congo: Bank of Central African States
 Costa Rica: Central Bank of Costa Rica
 Côte d’Ivoire: Central Bank of West African States (BCEAO)
 Croatia: Croatian National Bank
 Cuba: Central Bank of Cuba
 Cyprus: Central Bank of Cyprus
 Czech Republic: Czech National Bank
 Denmark: National Bank of Denmark
 Dominican Republic: Central Bank of the Dominican Republic
 East Caribbean area: Eastern Caribbean Central Bank
 Ecuador: Central Bank of Ecuador
 Egypt: Central Bank of Egypt
 El Salvador: Central Reserve Bank of El Salvador
 Equatorial Guinea: Bank of Central African States
 Estonia: Bank of Estonia
 Ethiopia: National Bank of Ethiopia
 European Union: European Central Bank
 Fiji: Reserve Bank of Fiji
 Finland: Bank of Finland
 France: Bank of France
 Gabon: Bank of Central African States
 The Gambia: Central Bank of The Gambia
 Georgia: National Bank of Georgia
 Germany: Deutsche Bundesbank
 Ghana: Bank of Ghana
 Greece: Bank of Greece
 Guatemala: Bank of Guatemala
 Guinea Bissau: Central Bank of West African States (BCEAO)
 Guyana: Bank of Guyana
 Haiti: Central Bank of Haiti
 Honduras: Central Bank of Honduras
 Hong Kong: Hong Kong Monetary Authority
 Hungary: Magyar Nemzeti Bank
 Iceland: Central Bank of Iceland
 India: Reserve Bank of India
 Indonesia: Bank Indonesia
 Iran: The Central Bank of the Islamic Republic of Iran
 Iraq: Central Bank of Iraq
 Ireland: Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland
 Israel: Bank of Israel
 Italy: Bank of Italy
 Jamaica: Bank of Jamaica
 Japan: Bank of Japan
 Jordan: Central Bank of Jordan
 Kazakhstan: National Bank of Kazakhstan
 Kenya: Central Bank of Kenya
 Korea: Bank of Korea
 Kuwait: Central Bank of Kuwait
 Kyrgyzstan: National Bank of the Kyrgyz Republic
 Latvia: Bank of Latvia
 Lebanon: Central Bank of Lebanon
 Lesotho: Central Bank of Lesotho
 Libya: Central Bank of Libya
 Uruguay: Central Bank of Uruguay
 Lithuania: Bank of Lithuania
 Luxembourg: Central Bank of Luxembourg
 Macao: Monetary Authority of Macao
 Macedonia: National Bank of the Republic of Macedonia
 Madagascar: Central Bank of Madagascar
 Malawi: Reserve Bank of Malawi
 Malaysia: Central Bank of Malaysia
 Mali: Central Bank of West African States (BCEAO)
 Malta: Central Bank of Malta
 Mauritius: Bank of Mauritius
 Mexico: Bank of Mexico
 Moldova: National Bank of Moldova
 Mongolia: Bank of Mongolia
 Montenegro: Central Bank of Montenegro
 Morocco: Bank of Morocco
 Mozambique: Bank of Mozambique
 Namibia: Bank of Namibia
 Nepal: Central Bank of Nepal
 Netherlands: Netherlands Bank
 Netherlands Antilles: Bank of the Netherlands Antilles
 New Zealand: Reserve Bank of New Zealand
 Nicaragua: Central Bank of Nicaragua
 Niger: Central Bank of West African States (BCEAO)
 Nigeria: Central Bank of Nigeria
 Norway: Central Bank of Norway
 Oman: Central Bank of Oman
 Pakistan: State Bank of Pakistan
 Papua New Guinea: Bank of Papua New Guinea
 Paraguay: Central Bank of Paraguay
 Peru: Central Reserve Bank of Peru
 Philip Pines: Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas
 Poland: National Bank of Poland
 Portugal: Bank of Portugal
 Qatar: Qatar Central Bank
 Romania: National Bank of Romania
 Russia: Central Bank of Russia
 Rwanda: National Bank of Rwanda
 San Marino: Central Bank of the Republic of San Marino
 Samoa: Central Bank of Samoa
 Saudi Arabia: Saudi Arabian Monetary Agency
 Senegal: Central Bank of West African States (BCEAO)
 Serbia: National Bank of Serbia
 Seychelles: Central Bank of Seychelles
 Sierra Leone: Bank of Sierra Leone
 Singapore: Monetary Authority of Singapore
 Slovakia: National Bank of Slovakia
 Slovenia: Bank of Slovenia
 Solomon Islands: Central Bank of Solomon Islands
 South Africa: South African Reserve Bank
 Spain: Bank of Spain
 Sri Lanka: Central Bank of Sri Lanka
 Sudan: Bank of Sudan
 Surinam: Central Bank of Suriname
 Swaziland: The Central Bank of Swaziland
 Sweden: Sveriges Riksbank
 Switzerland: Swiss National Bank
 Tajikistan: National Bank of Tajikistan
 Tanzania: Bank of Tanzania
 Thailand: Bank of Thailand
 Togo: Central Bank of West African States (BCEAO)
 Tonga: National Reserve Bank of Tonga
 Trinidad and Tobago: Central Bank of Trinidad and Tobago
 Tunisia: Central Bank of Tunisia
 Turkey: Central Bank of the Republic of Turkey
 Uganda: Bank of Uganda
 Ukraine: National Bank of Ukraine
 United Arab Emirates: Central Bank of United Arab Emirates
 United Kingdom: Bank of England
 United States: Federal Reserve, Federal Reserve Bank of New York
 Vanuatu: Reserve Bank of Vanuatu
 Venezuela: Central Bank of Venezuela
 Vietnam: The State Bank of Vietnam
 Yemen: Central Bank of Yemen
 Zambia: Bank of Zambia
 Zimbabwe: Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe

----------


## Dapper

Greece should call bankruptcy and go back to the Drachma.

End of.

Tsipras would seem to be a turncoat.

----------


## pseudolus

> Greece should call bankruptcy and go back to the Drachma.
> 
> End of.
> 
> Tsipras would seem to be a turncoat.


Controlled opposition in just the same way that Suthep was in Thailand, coming out of the woodwork and coercing the genuine protests to the loving arms of the military.

----------


## OhOh

> So, for the Brits to say no is ok .


The UK is not part of the Euro Zone. It is a Euro Zone problem.




> The country would have sunk, people would have starved to death and chaos would have occurred.  Nice world you propose


As opposed to what has happened in the past few years. Starving, no access to many drugs, power cuts, .......




> Nope, this is reality. Just explain to me how, on both macro and micro-economic levels, supermarket shelves would have filled up with goods . . . from where?


The same way that the Eastern Ukrainians have been fed for a year or so, a friendly neighbour sends a truck or two.

But the ECB, IMF and unelected and unaccountable Euro Group need to blame the Greek population for decisions made by them selves and their financial advisers/masters. See the many posts/startling excuses by these groups which have been kept secret for years. 

Hence no aid just threats and bullying.

----------


## sabang

> The banks gave themselves money and are asking for the Greek taxpayer to pay it back. The same as happened in the UK and US.


Yup. Succinctly put. But do not underestimate the revenge of Shylock- and this is why the sober minded are reticent to incure their collective wrath. 

Yet, to the vast majority of the people of this world (outside of the US/Euro axis), the IMF represents little more than a punishment agency. It throws money at you when money is cheap, then ushers in foreign creditors to buy you up at a discount, after the shit inevitably hits the fan. And of course, the banks never take the loss for their own lending practises, at a macro level. In this modern era. It is pretty clear where the ultimate Power lies- namely with those that have the imprimatur to create their own money, print their own currency. And they are debasing the currency.

The IMF is no longer a monopoly folks. Born with noble intentions, it has recently only caused more damage than good. (if u don't believe Greece & Thailand, just wait for the Ukraine). It's current format belongs in the same grave as Milton Friedman. Get with the Chinese infrastructure bank, if you're sensible.

----------


## OhOh

> Get with the Chinese infrastructure bank, if you're sensible.


As one Chinese leader, nearly, said some time ago. "It's too early to judge if it will be a successful bank".

But yes, it seems increasingly hard to see it being any worse than what is now forced on people.

----------


## HermantheGerman

I guess we can all agree that "WE" are getting screwed by our brainless politicians.

----------


## OhOh

The EC is proposing to "use" an EU fund to "assist" the EZ. The UK is "furious" and doesn't agree on the use of the fund for this purpose. Is a "referendum" to be held by the UK population?

Brussels proposes using EU-wide rescue fund to help Greece - FT.com

"*The European Commission has submitted a formal proposal  to use an EU-wide rescue fund to rush aid to Greece to ensure Athens  does not default on €7bn it owes on Monday, a proposal that will require  Britain to rally allies if it wants to block it.*"

" 

_Even the formal attempt by Brussels to use this fund is a big political setback. Mr  Cameron has trumpeted securing a "black and white" promise in 2011 that  the fund would be mothballed so British taxpayers would not be part of  eurozone bailouts_ 
_The EU-wide EFSM was set up at the onset of the eurozone crisis  with €60bn in lending capacity. When the eurozone moved to set up a new,  permanent rescue fund for the currency union’s 19 members, Mr Cameron  won agreement at an EU summit that the EFSM would never be used again  for eurozone rescues._"

----------


## pseudolus

Camermon and Osbourne the crackhead don't give a flying fuck if the UK tax payer has to fork out a load of cash. Their only job is to asset strip what is left of the UK, and get the country in as much debt to private banks as possible. Same as Bliar, Brown etc.

----------


## Bettyboo

^ blimey, looks like after bailing out the British banks we're now gonna bail out the German and French banks - that's federalism for you...

----------


## pseudolus

> ^ blimey, looks like after bailing out the British banks we're now gonna bail out the German and French banks - that's federalism for you...


INdeed. If the greeks "default" on the loan that never existed of the money that never existed that was created by tapping the numbers into a computer screen..... Deutsche Bank would be dust. Well, it wouldn't be because everyone with a bank account in the UK and Europe with a balance under a few grand (because only the poor would have to pay) would have half their balance cut and given to them. 

James Brown wrote a song about it, no? 

This is a bankster's world
This is a bankster's world
But they would be nothing, nothing
Without the complicity of corrupt governments. 

[Verse 1:]
You see, man made the car
To take us over the road
Man made the train
To carry the heavy load
Man made the electrolight
To take us out of the dark
Then along came the Banksters
And stole the bloody lot with sleight of hand and pushing man into debt slavery. 

This is a bankster's world
This is a bankster's world
But they would be nothing, nothing
Without the complicity of corrupt governments. 


[Verse 2:]
Man thinks about a little bit of baby girls and a baby boys
Man make them happy
'Cause man make them toys
And after man make everything
Everything he can
But the banksters and politicians like to fiddle with them
And use corrupt courts and police to get away with it or blackmail the politicians with. 

This is a bankster's world
This is a bankster's world
But they would be nothing, nothing
Without the complicity of corrupt governments.

----------


## Bettyboo

Some snippets from the BBC website:
Greece vote: Reaction and updates - BBC News

_Gabriel Sterne, an economist and head of Global Macro Research at Oxford Economics, reminds us this deal still has to get through the German parliament. Even if it does get approval, it could still fail. Mr Sterne says points out that IMF analysis shows the plan "really wont work." Greek GDP could sink a further 5%, he thinks. "There will have to be outright transfers" of money to Greece, he says._


_Worrying quote from Tsipras: "The government does not believe in these measures."How on earth is he then going to implement them?_


_vote followed a surreal but swift process during which everyone who voted for the measures spoke against them, incl. the PM_

----------


## Bettyboo

This scumbag needs shooting. A typical example of the Euro-cronies who work for the banks, not the people of Europe. 

_The combative German finance minister, Wolfgang Schaeuble has been speaking to German radio. He says that debt forgiveness is "not possible" while inside the euro. But he also says that it is unclear how to restore Greece's finances without some kind of reduction in debt. That's reported by Bloomberg news this morning. Earlier this week the IMF said that Greece's debt was "highly unsustainable" and needed a reduction._
Greece vote: Reaction and updates - BBC News


We could look back at German history and see if there are any parallels...

----------


## OhOh

No problem for the UK taxpayers the Europeans have an answer. :Smile: 

"_In order to mitigate this, the EU will look to insure non-euro  nations against losses on the bridge loan by pledging certain collateral  as a guarantee. Here's FT again:_ _One compromise EU officials are discussing involves indemnifying non-euro countries from any losses from the loans to Greece. It  is not yet clear whether the move would be legally feasible and whether  pledging collateral would be politically acceptable to eurozone  countries.
__And here is the punchline:_  _As collateral, the eurozone could pledge the €3.6bn in profits from Greek bonds owned by the ECB.
__So Europe will pledge profits from the ECB's Greek debt  holdings as collateral for a loan to Greece that will be used to make a  payment to the ECB for the very same Greek debt holdings._"


Sounds like a good plan eh? :Smile:

----------


## pseudolus

> pledge the €3.6bn in profits from Greek bonds owned by the ECB.


LOL what profit? They will default sooner or later. Just a ruse to suck more cash into the pot.

----------


## Horatio Hornblower

Soma assets the Greeks may have to sell, seems they ain't got much as it is.

10 Assets Greece May Eventually Sell

Numerous articles have been published since Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras reached an agreement with creditors, on how the country will be able to pay back its bailout. TIME magazine and the Business Insider explored Greeces options in regards to the countrys islands, while the Washington Post looked into other Greek assets that may eventually be sold as part of the bailout deal.

Greece needs to raise 50 billion euros through the sale of public assets with the help of a new fund. However, the countrys state assets are not worth much these days, due to the risk of investment. This isnt the sort of opportunity where you say, Look its at the bottom of the market right now and you can buy it and be on the upswing,' said Thomas Wright, director of Brookings Institutions Project on International Order and Strategy, to the Washington Post.

Here are the 10 most interesting Greek public assets that may be put on sale, according to the Washington Post:

- See more at: 10 Assets Greece May Eventually Sell | GreekReporter.com

----------


## Seekingasylum

I'm actually quite astonished at how Messrs. Bootavros, Pseudouloupolis and Horny Blowoupolistopdelou have managed to get through life without ever taking out a loan, obtaining a mortgage or holding bank accounts. 

I wonder who supports them?

----------


## panama hat

> As opposed to what has happened in the past few years. Starving, no access to many drugs, power cuts, .......


Please cite articles about Greeks starving in the past few years




> The same way that the Eastern Ukrainians have been fed for a year or so, a friendly neighbour sends a truck or two.


It will take a bit more than a 'few trucks' to keep the population fed for years and years.

----------


## Horatio Hornblower

Schaeuble still thinks temporary Grexit a good idea

German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble said he would submit a request to Germany's parliament to reopen negotiations on Greece's third bailout with "full conviction", but still believes a temporary Grexit would perhaps be a better option.

"We are a step further," Schaeuble told Germany's Deutschlandfunk radio on Thursday, after the Greek parliament passed a sweeping package of austerity measures demanded by European partners.

"This is an important step," he said.

He added, however, that many economists doubt that Greece's problems can be solved without a debt haircut.

He said a haircut would be incompatible with a country's membership of the euro, meaning that a country would therefore have to leave the currency union temporarily.

"But this would perhaps be the better way for Greece," Schaeuble said.

Schaeuble still thinks temporary Grexit a good idea | Business | ekathimerini.com

----------


## pseudolus

> I'm actually quite astonished at how Messrs. Bootavros, Pseudouloupolis and Horny Blowoupolistopdelou have managed to get through life without ever taking out a loan, obtaining a mortgage or holding bank accounts. 
> 
> I wonder who supports them?


Cor blimey you are a thick one, or completly brain washed. 

Countries have the option of issuing money interest and debt free. Instead we in the world have been hoodwinked by corrupt official and Shylock bankers into letting them create money from think air, creating debt, never creating the interest, and then using that to asset strip the entire world. You seem to think this is the best and only way. 

What's done is done - can not be reversed. However with all the fake money and derivatives floating about, the world in bankrupt and the only route now is for all property and assets to be int he hands of the few controlling the central banks. So when eventually critical mass wake up to this fact, and you are on here whining about people in the street with pitchforks, you might like to ask why in gods name should some rich twat be able to create money out of thin air and charge you 3 times the price of a house for no other reason than a class of corrupt politicians are allowing them to. 

Oh and yes I have had loans. These days though if I want something I save up and buy it, including houses.

----------


## Seekingasylum

You really ought to get yourself an education rather than rely on gibberish you seem to be regurgitating all the time.

It's never too late.

----------


## melvin

> Soma assets the Greeks may have to sell, seems they ain't got much as it is.
> 
> 10 Assets Greece May Eventually Sell
> 
> Numerous articles have been published since Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras reached an agreement with creditors, on how the country will be able to pay back its bailout. TIME magazine and the Business Insider explored Greeces options in regards to the countrys islands, while the Washington Post looked into other Greek assets that may eventually be sold as part of the bailout deal.
> 
> Greece needs to raise 50 billion euros through the sale of public assets with the help of a new fund. However, the countrys state assets are not worth much these days, due to the risk of investment. This isnt the sort of opportunity where you say, Look its at the bottom of the market right now and you can buy it and be on the upswing,' said Thomas Wright, director of Brookings Institutions Project on International Order and Strategy, to the Washington Post.
> 
> Here are the 10 most interesting Greek public assets that may be put on sale, according to the Washington Post:
> ...



No mentioning of islands. Greece has islands in abundance. Could sell a few.

----------


## hazz

Some comments on what people have posted. 
Yes, the fiat money that we all use has not commodity backing, its a government IOU and can be described as illusionary... just ink on cotton paper, digits in a computer. But this is true of everything that our society the pleasant alternative to the likes of pakistans NWF and Somalia.
The money is an illusion, the laws are an illusion, copyright, intellectual property, the standards and regulations that bring you water, electricity and the internet... even this web page. these are all illusionary, ink on paper. But they do work don't they, and when they don't things fall apart very quickly.... hence the need for care and discipline when fiddling.

One of the problems with money with a fixed supply, physical coinage money, gold standard. is what do you do when everyone is scared, holding the money, so its all dropping out of circulation. Eventually the government the banks they run out of cash, nobody can pay anyone and the economy stalls. If one looks in history one can see this happening quite frequently... The new france colony comes to mind where they started using a fiat currency based upon cut up playing cards.

The nice thing about a fiat currency is that the government can magic up new money, representing new government debt. It keeps the wages paid, keeps cash in circulation, the devaluation discourages hording of currency as its costing you value, the devaluation and inflation this causes provides a devaluation that people fine more acceptable than taking a cut in their wage/pension/welfare/saving/investoments.

Obviously take this magicking of money too far and you have the hyper inflation germany and Zimbabwe come to mind. An experience that is burnt in the heart of german politics and fiscal policy, the deuchmark, the euro.... and it is that perceived stability that comes with the euro that's made it attractive to many peoples including the greek's despite the last 5 years.

But then the euro is a funny currency, for the eurozone it is a fiat currency, but for the individual members it behaves like a commodity currency. In greece the government and banks are almost out of euro's. those out of the banks are being horded and the greek government cannot find the problem by printing some more euros... they have to get them from the eurozone... rather like a gold standard currency.

And this is the point there are only two ways to restart greece, 

drop out of the euro, print their own money, devalue everything in the country and start rebuilding. Personally I think in the long term this would be the better option, as i do not think the greeks can live with the fiscal discipline that the norther europeans expect of the eurozone. in the short term without massive injections of euros for purchasing imports the greeks would be well and truly roggered.

if the geek people want to live in the eurozone, they are going to have to accept greece needs to change to fit in with the northern european expectations of the currency. That means things like reporting real data to eurostat, rather that the political white lies they have up to now.
That 5 years into the bailout, the greek electorate have failed to elect a government that is willing to do something as simple as make elstat independent, and finally agreed to do it under extreme pressure of mondays deal. says that buckets as to the commitment of the greek people and its politicians to do whats needed to become a sustainable member of the eurozone.

Saying that all sides have decided that greece stays in, that means that as greece cannot print its money and devalue it. the eurozone is going to have to pump the necessary cash to get the economy going. Its going to have to accept its not going to get the cash back... and its going to be loans because the Finnish, the germans and a few others have to persuade  their parliaments to agree and these institutions are not in the mood for giving money away.

A right mess and a small one too. I dread to think what will happen if spain, ireland or italy decided that greek deal is better than the one they have now.... german exit from the euro? The eurozone needs to find a better way of either handling or preventing this mess from occurring again. Perhaps eurozone governments should have to ask each other for permission to issue bonds etc.

One thing does come to mind. everyone is talking about the evil banks for lending the money. The reality is the greek government asked to borrow the money and the banks believed the deal was good.  Greek governments put there by a democratic vote of the greek electorate.
To what degree should the greek electorate take responsibility for the actions of multiple governments that they elected? Because personally I see a long term failure in their duty to act as gate keepers to political power in greece.

BTW a rather interesting and well researched  book about money called "Debt: The First 5000 Years" is a very good start. if you read it and check a selection of its references and quotes... they actually prove correct unlike the made up quotes about the rothchilds we have had on this thread.

----------


## pseudolus

> The nice thing about a fiat currency is that the government can magic up new money


Here is where you drift slightly away from reality. The Government does not conjure up new money. The privately owned banks do. If it were only the government doing it, at least the money would be debt and interest free and the only impact would be inflation. The problem with allowing private banks to do it, even at the request of the government is; 

1) They only create the principal amount. Never the interest. So for every Euro in circulation, there is say, for ease, 2 euros that needs to pay back them. Impossible to pay to them what has not been created. 

2) The only way to pay back the interest eventually is with assets. 

3) There is still inflation, but the with private banks creating the money, there is inflation and debt. 





> evil banks


Its not so much about evil banks. The banksters are scum, and they manipulate the world through corrupt politicians to make sure this keeps happening. 





> To what degree should the greek electorate take responsibility for the actions of multiple governments that they elected?


They have no choice. They do not know that it is all a false left right paradigm with all politicians working for the bankster elite. Every western country in the world has a population who thinks they can vote in or out parties without realising that all they are doing is voting in the left or right hand of the same monster who increases the debt. Even with the new mob, voted in to end austerity, they simply play the same game, continuing the debt slavery.

Take the UK for example - recent budget, loads of crooning from cradckhead osbourne, but the details of his little speech is more money for banksters and the rich, more tax breaks for them, more austerity for the more, huge attack on the middle classes especially small business people, and a pledge to borrow even more money from the private banksters. Treason.

----------


## Troy

> I'm actually quite astonished at how Messrs. Bootavros, Pseudouloupolis and Horny Blowoupolistopdelou have managed to get through life without ever taking out a loan, obtaining a mortgage or holding bank accounts.  I wonder who supports them?


Oddly enough. people of my generation had to pay extortionate interest rates on loans required for education. So much so that many who had the ability to obtain doctorates decided against it. As a result the generation I speak of do not trust a banker further than the mattress, let alone one supplying money to Greece.

Never a borrower nor lender be...

I may go without from time to time but I never have to worry about some twat deciding my pension is worthless or my mortgage won't do what it said on the can 25 years ago,

Lost another baht in the Baht exchange rate this week so I guess I'm going to have to work a few more week-ends before I can live my dreams....

----------


## OhOh

A certain Senior EU MP appears to be on a gray train due to his voting/lobbying for a Greece acceptance of the "Agreement".

https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2015/07...rivatisations/

_"Boël family links show how Verhofstadt’s energy lobbying triggered régime change in Ukraine

__Guy  Verhofstadt, the senior MEP who lambasted Alexis Tsipras in Brussels  last week, is on the Board of two companies due to gain from Greek  energy privatisation…and is paid €190,000 a year by billionaire Nicolas  Boël to lobby to that end. He has also been hawkishly anti-Putin over  the Ukraine issue, where the Boël dynasty plotted régime change as a  means of gaining valuable fracking contracts."_

All in a days work to the prostitute politicians.

----------


## pseudolus

> where the Boël dynasty plotted régime change as a means of gaining valuable fracking contracts."
> 
> All in a days work to the prostitute politicians.


Joe Bidens kid and John Kerry's mate the same



> The younger Mr Biden isn't the only American with political ties to have recently joined Burisma's board. Devon Archer, a former senior advisor to current Secretary of State John Kerry's 2004 presidential campaign and a college roommate of Mr Kerry's stepson HJ Heinz, signed on in April.


Vice President Joe Biden's son joins Ukraine gas company - BBC News

----------


## Warrior

> In counting our billions instead of using them to build, in refusing to accept an albeit obvious loss by constantly postponing any commitment on reducing the debt, in preferring to humiliate a people because they are unable to reform, and putting resentments  however justified  before projects for the future, we are turning our backs on what Europe should be, we are turning our backs on Habermas citizen solidarity. We are expending all our energies on infighting and running the risk of triggering a break-up. This is where we are. A eurozone, in which you, my German friends, would lay down your law with a few Baltic and Nordic states in tow, is unacceptable for all the the rest.


To my German friends

----------


## Black Heart

_I generally don't like Krugman, especially his high-school level OP-Eds in the NY Times as he is an admitted shill for the Dems.

But here is an article that's decent on Greece and the Euro. I have no opinion on his position. 

What do posters think?_
*
Fantasy economics fails in Europe*

July 20, 2015

Paul Krugman

There's a bit of a lull in the news from Europe, but the underlying situation is as terrible as ever. Greece is experiencing a slump worse than the Great Depression, and nothing happening now offers hope of recovery.* Spain has been hailed as a success story, because its economy is finally growing - but it still has 22 per cent unemployment.*

*And there is an arc of stagnation across the continent's top: Finland is experiencing a depression comparable to that in southern Europe, and Denmark and the Netherlands are also doing very badly.*

How did things go so wrong? The answer is that this is what happens when self-indulgent politicians ignore arithmetic and the lessons of history.

*The only big mistake of the eurosceptics was underestimating just how much damage the single currency would do.*

The only big mistake of the eurosceptics was underestimating just how much damage the single currency would do. 

And no, I'm not talking about leftists in Greece or elsewhere; I'm talking about ultra-respectable men in Berlin, Paris, and Brussels, who have spent a quarter-century trying to run Europe on the basis of fantasy economics.
*
To someone who didn't know much economics, or chose to ignore awkward questions, establishing a unified European currency sounded like a great idea.
*
It would make doing business across national borders easier, while serving as a powerful symbol of unity. Who could have foreseen the huge problems the euro would eventually cause?
*
What should Europe do now? There are no good answers.
*
Actually, lots of people. *In January 2010 two European economists published an article titled "It Can't Happen, It's a Bad Idea, It Won't Last," mocking American economists who had warned that the euro would cause big problems. As it turned out, the article was an accidental classic: at the very moment it was being written, all those dire warnings were in the process of being vindicated.
*
And the article's intended hall of shame - the long list of economists it cites for wrong-headed pessimism - has instead become a sort of honour roll, a who's who of those who got it more or less right.

The only big mistake of the eurosceptics was underestimating just how much damage the single currency would do.

*The point is that it wasn't at all hard to see, right from the beginning, that currency union without political union was a very dubious project. So why did Europe go ahead with it?*

Mainly, I'd say, because the idea of the euro sounded so good. That is, it sounded forward-looking, European-minded, exactly the kind of thing that appeals to the kind of people who give speeches at Davos. Such people didn't want nerdy economists telling them that their glamorous vision was a bad idea.

Indeed, within Europe's elite it quickly became very hard to raise objections to the currency project.* I remember the atmosphere of the early 1990s very well: anyone who questioned the desirability of the euro was effectively shut out of the discussion.
*
Furthermore, if you were an American expressing doubts you were invariably accused of ulterior motives - of being hostile to Europe, or wanting to preserve the dollar's "exorbitant privilege."

And the euro came. For a decade after its introduction a huge financial bubble masked its underlying problems. But now, as I said, all of the sceptics' fears have been vindicated.

Furthermore, the story doesn't end there. When the predicted and predictable strains on the euro began, Europe's policy response was to impose draconian austerity on debtor nations - and to deny the simple logic and historical evidence indicating that such policies would inflict terrible economic damage while failing to achieve the promised debt reduction.

It's astonishing even now how blithely top European officials dismissed warnings that slashing government spending and raising taxes would cause deep recessions, how they insisted that all would be well because fiscal discipline would inspire confidence. (It didn't.) The truth is that trying to deal with large debts through austerity alone - in particular, while simultaneously pursuing a hard-money policy - has never worked. It didn't work for Britain after World War I, despite immense sacrifices; why would anyone expect it to work for Greece?

*What should Europe do now? There are no good answers - but the reason there are no good answers is because the euro has turned into a Roach Motel, a trap that's hard to escape.* If Greece still had its own currency, the case for devaluing that currency, improving Greek competitiveness and ending deflation, would be overwhelming.

The fact that Greece no longer has a currency, that it would have to create one from scratch, vastly raises the stakes.* My guess is that euro exit will still prove necessary. And in any case it will be essential to write down much of Greece's debt.
*
But we're not having a clear discussion of these options, because European discourse is still dominated by ideas the continent's elite would like to be true, but aren't. And Europe is paying a terrible price for this monstrous self-indulgence.



Read more: Fantasy economics fails in Europe

----------


## HermantheGerman

^ 
Not one country got forced into the EURO.
The problem is not the EURO, the problem is that the countries are not going by the rules that where laid down from the start. Including Germany.

----------


## Neo

Well if it's the rules that are a problem.. why not change them.?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Takeovers

> Well if it's the rules that are a problem.. why not change them.?



It is not the rules that are the problem. It is those that break them and then demand to be bailed out by those who did follow them.

----------


## panama hat

> Originally Posted by Neo
> 
> 
> Well if it's the rules that are a problem.. why not change them.? 
> 
> 
> 
> It is not the rules that are the problem. It is those that break them and then demand to be bailed out by those who did follow them.


I wonder why that is too difficult to understand . . .

----------


## HermantheGerman

> Well if it's the rules that are a problem.. why not change them.?


Tsipras is already doing it. He breaking promises to the EU that he just made last week. Are you surprised ???
Is that maybe the problem of the greek people ? Making agreements and not living up to them ? Naaaa, that would be too simple. There's got to be some germans, banks, the EU or some other things to put the blame on.

----------


## Neo

Welcome to last week Herman  :Wave:

----------


## Neo

> Originally Posted by Neo
> 
> 
> Well if it's the rules that are a problem.. why not change them.? 
> 
> 
> 
> It is not the rules that are the problem. It is those that break them and then demand to be bailed out by those who did follow them.


Millions of people are breaking them or on the verge of it, you might think the rules might be a part of the problem... 




What do you think all those zeros really add up to ?  ::chitown::

----------


## OhOh

> It is not the rules that are the problem. It is those that  broke some rules themselves which allowed Greec's entry to the club. Followed by unelected and unaccountable officials, the secret Euro group, demanding with threats of violence, some members states follow different rules.


Modified it to assist the facts to be understood by all. :Smile: 





> I wonder why that is too difficult to understand


Perception is a gift that few understand and fewer still, wish to acquire.

----------


## OhOh

I am so happy that the Greek's problems has been resolved so amicably.

Or has it. Some, the St. Louis Federal Reserve (FRED) and Bloomberg, have their doubts.Is this just "exceptional" foresight from an "exceptional" countries financial regulator amd MSM, or propaganda?Only time or more foresight will tell._



_More at:

_Michael Lebowitz Blog | The Simple Math Behind Greece?s Complicated Situation | Talkmarkets - Page 2
_

----------


## Black Heart

> ^ 
> Not one country got forced into the EURO.
> The problem is not the EURO, the problem is that the countries are not going by the rules that where laid down from the start. Including Germany.


Cheers, Herman.

What is Germany doing against the rules?

(I admit my ignorance but promise to learn.)

----------


## pseudolus

Tsipras will be working for Goldman Sachs or JP MOrgan in 3 years time. Huge salary and benefits as a reward for his subterfuge.

----------


## Bettyboo

*Why it's time for Germany to leave the eurozone*
_Influential figures including Ben Bernanke have called on Germany pull its weight to end the eurozone's dysfunction. The only alternative is a German exit from the euro_
Why it's time for Germany to leave the eurozone - Telegraph

----------


## Horatio Hornblower

Greece crisis: Tsipras takes on Syriza critics before vote

Greece's prime minister has taken on critics in his Syriza party ahead of another crucial vote on reforms.
Alexis Tsipras attacked rebel MPs who opposed an agreement with creditors, accusing them of "hiding behind the safety of my signature".
MPs need to back the reforms for talks to start on a new €86bn bailout.
The vote is expected to pass with the support of opposition parties, but Mr Tsipras hopes to avoid a rebellion from within the ranks of Syriza.
Some 32 of the radical-left party's 149 MPs - including former Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis - voted against the first tranche of bailout measures last week. Another six abstained.
Jump media playerMedia player helpOut of media player. Press enter to return or tab to continue.
Media caption
Reforms include changes to the Greek banking system and an overhaul of the judicial system
The rebellion reduced Mr Tsipras's support within his own ruling coalition to 123 MPs, barely more than the minimum 120 required to sustain a minority government.
He said the Greek people had "pinned their hopes" on the government's ability to find a solution to the debt crisis, addressing Syriza MPs on Tuesday night.
line
Tsipras strengthens position - by Chris Morris, BBC News, Athens
For a man who was forced into a fairly abrupt U-turn, Alexis Tsipras remains extraordinarily popular.
If he calls an early election in the coming months - and that still feels like the most likely option - it would be a huge surprise if he didn't win comfortably and emerge stronger.
That's partly because the opposition is in disarray. But also because many Greeks like the fact that he appeared to stand up for national pride.
For the moment Mr Tsipras is trying to put pressure on dissenters within his own party. He had heard plenty of heroic speeches, the prime minister said, but not seen any alternative proposals.
It's partly a reminder that he could move to exclude those who are disloyal if another election is just around the corner.
But he has to get the bailout approved first - and that's not yet a done deal.
Battle over eurozone's future
line
Finance Minister Euclid Tsakalotos said it was "extremely important" for the vote on financial and judicial reforms to pass so that talks on the bailout could begin on Friday.
Last week's vote was on the austerity measures imposed by Greece's creditors - a mix of economic reforms and budget cuts demanded by the eurozone countries and institutions before bailout talks could continue.
The measures due to be presented to parliament on Wednesday are of a more structural nature, including:
a code of civil protection aimed at speeding up court cases
the adoption of an EU directive to bolster banks and protect savers' deposits of less than €100,000
the introduction of rules that would see bank shareholders and creditors - not taxpayers - cover costs of a failed bank
More contentious measures - phasing out early retirement and tax rises for farmers - have been pushed back to August.
his picture taken on March 15, 2014 show Nourie Chasan Sali, producer carving the fields of mountain tea in Pilima, a village near Xanthi, Northern Greece
The issue of tax rises for Greek farmers has been put back until August
Greece's public sector union has called for a protest during the emergency debate in parliament on Wednesday evening.
Asked if the threat of a Greek exit from the euro - or Grexit - had passed, EU Economic Affairs Commissioner Pierre Moscovici said on Tuesday: "I think we've made a big step in that direction."
The International Monetary Fund (IMF) confirmed on Monday that Greece had cleared its overdue debt repayments of €2.05bn (£1.4bn) and was no longer in arrears.

Greece crisis: Tsipras takes on Syriza critics before vote - BBC News

----------


## Bettyboo

> radical-left


Not supporting crony capitalism, banking extremism is 'radical-left'?

----------


## Horatio Hornblower

Seems Tsipras has gone from left to right. :Smile:

----------


## Bettyboo

Basically, the German's scared him shitless and we now have exactly the same situation as a couple of months ago, but worse: more debts, more to be passed onto German, French and other taxpayers quite soon, a worsening crisis in Greece itself.

Nothing has been addressed at the root, just more debt has been accrued. But, on the upside, the German, French and other private banks have passed even more debt onto the taxpayers of Europe while making more profits from this debacle for many years to come, and they get to own Greece's assets too - a total raping for Greece and European taxpayers...

----------


## Neo

> *Why it's time for Germany to leave the eurozone*
> _Influential figures including Ben Bernanke have called on Germany pull its weight to end the eurozone's dysfunction. The only alternative is a German exit from the euro_
> Why it's time for Germany to leave the eurozone - Telegraph


It's been mooted before. The German economy would do better standing alone alongside that of Russia and China. Only German obstinance will stand in the way, and we all know how that's worked out for them before. 

 :Flush:

----------


## jamescollister

> It's been mooted before. The German economy would do better standing alone alongside that of Russia and China. Only German obstinance will stand in the way, and we all know how that's worked out for them before.


Think it's the other way around, poorer Euro zone countries keep the Euro down, good for German exports.
If the likes of Greece and other EZ countries were out, the rich norther EZ countries stayed in, the Euro would be way above the US dollar, Russian Rubles, toilet paper.
Any western country running on a surplus will have a strong currency, look at Australia during the mining boom.

----------


## HermantheGerman

> Seems Tsipras has gone from left to right.


Seems Tsipras has gone from left to right and bend over position :bananasexy:

----------


## HermantheGerman

> Originally Posted by HermantheGerman
> 
> 
> ^ 
> Not one country got forced into the EURO.
> The problem is not the EURO, the problem is that the countries are not going by the rules that where laid down from the start. Including Germany.
> 
> 
> Cheers, Herman.
> ...



Germany and France first broke the rule that deficits should not  go above 3 per cent of GDP in 2003.

----------


## OhOh

> Is that maybe the problem of the greek people ?  Making agreements and not living up to them ? Naaaa, that would be too  simple. There's got to be some germans, banks, the EU or some other  things to put the blame on.





> What is Germany doing against the rules?  (I admit my ignorance but promise to learn.)



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Treaty

_"The Maastricht Treaty (formally, the Treaty on European Union or TEU) undertaken to integrate Europe was signed on 7 February 1992 by the members of the European Community in Maastricht, Netherlands.[1] On 9–10 December 1991

"The treaty led to the creation of the euro. One of the obligations of the treaty for the members was to keep "sound fiscal policies, with debt limited to 60% of GDP and annual deficits no greater than 3% of GDP."[4]"


_Just take a look at the GDP/Debt Ratios and it will become apparent, to those who care to engage their brain cells, that excluding the UK and Sweden, because they aren't in the EURO Zone (EZ)_,_ veryfew are even close to the 60" requirement._




_They are also required to  "_be approaching the reference value at a satisfactory pace."_ As posted yesterday, the agreement to "assist" Greece imposed on them by the secret and unaccountable "Euro Group" cabal will not get Greece anywhere near these agreed criteria. Another illegal decsion taken by the cabal.
If this graph, below, is true they don't appear to be approaching, rather they are increasingly distancing themselves, for over 8 years from the criteria._




_Stop blaming one countries citizens. There are clear rules. The EZ  institutions (elected, unelected and secret), the ECB, the IMF and Greece's financial advisers are the  ones for your misplaced anger.

Will the previous Greek administrations, who lied to the Greek citizens, be bankrupted, will the other institutions who took or advised illegal procedures, be bankrupted.

----------


## Bettyboo

^ good clear explication.

But, as we've seen on here, people prefer to believe propaganda and follow nationalism blindly... Thus, they will just simply ignore those facts and be spouting hatespeech against Greek pensioners within a post or two...

It comes down to the same thing time after time:

Banks are enabled by crony politicians; their profits are privatized; their losses are socialized - the EU banking system is corrupt to the core (as is the global banking system).

----------


## chassamui

> secret and unaccountable


This little phrase nicely sums up the bottom line for the whole of the EU/Euro zone. From CAP to unsigned audits and a parliament that moves every 6 months.
A basket case sucking money from one cock country to another by various unseen political manouverings.

----------


## Takeovers

> As posted yesterday, the agreement to "assist" Greece imposed on them by the secret and unaccountable "Euro Group" cabal will not get Greece anywhere near these agreed criteria.


It is not anyones job to "get them there" but Greece itself. Others can only assist which they are doing. It is still Greeces job to change their country or get the fuck out of the Euro and deal with their problems themselves. I am all for sending food aid to Greece in that case.

This said, I was never a supporter of the Euro. It should never have been introduced IMO. But seeing how many countries and their people are willing to sacrifice to be part of it I may be wrong.

----------


## HermantheGerman

> ^ good clear explication.
> 
> But, as we've seen on here, people prefer to believe propaganda and follow nationalism blindly... Thus, they will just simply ignore those facts and be spouting hatespeech against Greek pensioners within a post or two...
> 
> It comes down to the same thing time after time:
> 
> Banks are enabled by crony politicians; their profits are privatized; their losses are socialized - the EU banking system is corrupt to the core (as is the global banking system).


GDP vs Debt

Greece has 177.10 % and has to offer:  Olives, Olives, Olives, Olives, Olives, Olives, Olives etc.

Japan has 230% and has to offer:  Fujitsu, Toyota, Hitachi, Honda, Isuzu, JVC, Komatsu, Mitsubishi, Nikon and the list goes on and on and on.

Can you understand the difference ?
Now; that is what I call a clear "good clear explication". 
And I don't think you have to be a financial expert to understand what I'am trying to tell you.

I give you a hint...one is called natural disaster the other a man made disaster.
Japan had a Tsunami that cost "BILLIONS". 
Greece has a Tsunami of early retired pensioners and crooks.





P.S. did'nt want to take Germany as an example because........ I'am.........modest   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## HermantheGerman

> Stop blaming one countries citizens.


Why ? 




> *Tax evasion and corruption* is a problem *in Greece*.Tax evasion has been described by Greek politicians as "a national sport"with up to 30 billion per year going uncollected.





> In a democracy people get the leaders they deserve.

----------


## Bettyboo

> But, as we've seen on here, people prefer to believe propaganda and follow nationalism blindly... Thus, they will just simply ignore those facts and be spouting hatespeech against Greek pensioners within a post or two...





> Greece has a Tsunami of early retired pensioners and crooks.



Took 3 posts...

----------


## jamescollister

[QUOTE="HermantheGerman"]Japan has 230% and has to offer: 
Just goes to show how screwed the worlds economy is, Japan 230% of GDP, taxes pay off debt, not GDP.
So how many years of taxpayers money and what percentage of it per year, cut say 50% of tax revenue to pay the bill, kill off pensions, health care the military, schools and non cost effective government programs.
Keep taxing everyone, but don't provide garbage collection or police, 10 or 20 years later you may have repaid the debt.

It's magic money, never excited in the first place, created from thin air and can never be repaid.

Coccos islands, owned by a family, paid the workers in plastic tokens, family owned everything, could print as many tokens as needed, worked well for the ruling family.

----------


## chassamui

*Beppe Grillo calls for nationalisation of Italian banks and exit from euro* 



Beppe Grillo calls for nationalisation of Italian banks and exit from euro | World news | The Guardian


         Five Star Movement’s populist leader compares Greek bailout talks to  ‘explicit nazism’ and says Italy must use its €2tn debt as leverage  against Germany





  
  Beppe Grillo, the former comedian-turned-politician, has long been a bombastic critic of the euro. Photograph: Fotogramma/Splash News/Corbis     Stephanie Kirchgaessner in Rome
   Thursday 23 July 2015 14.35 BST   Last modified on Thursday 23 July 2015 14.40 BST  











  The populist leader of Italy’s second largest political party has  called for the nationalisation of Italian banks and exit from the euro,  and said the country should prepare to use its “enormous debt” as a  weapon against Germany.
Former comedian-turned-politician Beppe Grillo, who transformed Italian politics when he launched his anti-establishment Five Star Movement in 2009, has long been a bombastic critic of the euro.
*How Beppe Grillo's social media politics took Italy by storm*

                               Jamie Bartlett 


                              Read more             



  But his stance hardened significantly in a blogpost on Thursday in which he compared the Greek bailout negotiations to “explicit nazism”.
 Grillo constructed what he called a “Plan B” for Italy, which he said needed to heed the lessons of Greece so that it was ready “when the debtors come round”.

----------


## OhOh



----------


## HermantheGerman

It ain't over until its over ! It looks like the U.S. (IMF) is pressuring the Europeans to relief greek debts. Or should I say: give money to the greeks, or stuff up their ass, or support their way of life. 
The scary thing about this is that it didn't hit the 8 o'clock news. Are our politicians already on summer vacation?  Are they tired of Sirtaki ? Or ran out of answers ?




> Greece crisis escalates as IMF witholds support for a new bail-out dealTalks over new rescue package are derailed after less than a week as IMF seeks    explicit assurances over debt relief from the Europeans





> The IMF said it cant reach a staff level agreement on Greeces 86  billion bailout at this stage and will make the decision on further  involvement in the deal only after Athens agrees on a comprehensive set  of reforms and creditors on debt relief.


 "Comprehensive set of reforms" maybe Betty has some good advice  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Bettyboo

Herman, you're a blinkered nationalistic fool of the type propagandamongerers love, no offence...

We all know that Greek cannot service the debt. It is that simple. Throwing more money at them when they cannot pay the existing debt and will not be able to pay additional debts is ridiculous.

We all know that. The IMF have stated it, and they want this fundamental issue addressed, and rightly so.

Answers are:

1) No more loans for Greece.
2) No blackmailing of Greece by controlling their money; the best place for Greece to ensure this would be outside of the Euro.
3) The private banks who made the loans suffering the consequences, not European taxpayers.
4) Support for the Greek economy, and payment of existing loans when the economy is able to pay without destroying jobs and industries (that's not now...).

----------


## HermantheGerman

> Herman, you're a blinkered nationalistic fool of the type propagandamongerers love, no offence...
> 
> We all know that Greek cannot service the debt. It is that simple. Throwing more money at them when they cannot pay the existing debt and will not be able to pay additional debts is ridiculous.
> 
> We all know that. The IMF have stated it, and they want this fundamental issue addressed, and rightly so.
> 
> Answers are:
> 
> 1) No more loans for Greece. *Will you be sending Bananas instead ?*
> ...


Please, I'am not offended. There are a few here on TD that I take serious. But you are not one of them. 
No offence taken.

----------


## Bettyboo

> No more loans for Greece. Will you be sending Bananas instead ?


Typical racist comments from a propaganda follower. If Greece was not paying back their loans (at 175% of GDP) then they would be functioning just fine and growing their economy.

They're are currently fuked because:

1) Their loan repayments are 175% of GDP - you do understand that anything higher than 100% cannot be paid, right, Hermann??? You also understand that loan repayments need to be very very much lower than 100% of GDP for any country to function.

I looked at a few banking sites, at domestic, family, national level, etc, and this is the kinda number we're needing for longterm sustainability:

_When I was in the commercial banking industry, I learned a central underwriting principle, which stated that a borrower’s total debt-servicing payments (principal, interest, taxes, and insurance on all debts) should be no more than 36% of the borrower’s income._
https://blogs.wellsfargo.com/advanta...-debt-is-sust/

36%

Currently, Greece are at 175%, but if these additional loans go through then Greece will be at over 200%.

Obviously, to any person with a functioning brain, this position is just impossible; hence why the IMF are looking for a big change in the debt structuring and repayments.




> the best place for Greece to ensure this would be outside of the Euro. They don't have any money, they are bankrupt. Haven't you heard ??


They are not bankrupt, per se, they are blackmailed by the Euro monetary system. 

They have a GDP which if it was not spent on loans could be spent on stuff like paying wages, healthcare, etc. Greece's problem is:

1) The loan repayments are physically impossible to repay.
2) The austerity measures forced on them by the creditors are shrinking the economy and making 1) even worse because GDP gets smaller, so the ration of GDP gets even high in favour of the loan repayments.

This isn't rocket science, you should be able to understand this simple idea, Hermann...




> Private banks ??? That was all the way in the beginning and at that time the debt was peanuts compared to now.


Total debt=360Bn

ECB debt=20Bn
IMF debt=32Bn

The rest is to idiots who invested for profits or political power, such as Germany, 56Bn. You'll notice that the US and UK 'invested' very little...
How much Greece owes to international creditors | Reuters

There's still today more bonds/debt held by private banks than the ECB/IMF combined, here's some of that:

_Private investors hold 38.7 billion euros of Greek government bonds following a major write-down and debt swap in 2012 that reduced the Greek debt stock by 107 billion euros and the value of private holdings by an estimated 75 percent.

The Greek government has also issued 15 billion euros in short-term Treasury bills, mostly to Greek banks._
How much Greece owes to international creditors | Reuters

More numbers:

_Beyond a default on Greece's national debt, any exit of Greece from the euro zone would lumber the European Central Bank with a huge bill for lost credit. ECB President Mario Draghi recently said that Greek banks had tapped 118 billion euros of central bank liquidity. That includes 89 billion in what is known as Emergency Liquidity Assistance (ELA). That remains the responsibility of the country's central bank but only if Greece stays in the euro. Were it to leave, the bill would rebound on other euro countries, including Germany._

_Of the biggest euro zone members, Germany's exposure for the two bailouts totals 57.23 billion euros, France's is 42.98 billion, Italy's is 37.76 billion and Spain's 25.1 billion._ 
How much Greece owes to international creditors | Reuters

Basically, *Germany's empire building has them in debt here to 100+Bn...*




> Support for the Greek economy, and payment of existing loans when the economy is able to pay without destroying jobs and industries (that's not now...). An economy can only be supported when the structural government is working. Would you invest in Greece ?


There are two questions here:

1) Greece's government is functioning just fine. Their problems are related to their monetary system which is not controlled within their own borders thus the Germans can shut them down, just as they did a couple of weeks ago. Greece need to get themselves out of the Euro because they cannot function under this system of blackmail.

2) No, I would not loan Greece money. I have said this over and over. Investment is something else... &, Greece has an economy with a variety of sectors, so that's not the issue per se, the loan repayments are. If Greece left the Euro and focused on their economy then they could do just fine. 

But, the stupid Germans would be 100Bn euros down, deservedly so, imho...

----------


## panama hat

> Typical racist comments





> the stupid Germans


 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 


(Btw, same race . . . can't be racist)

----------


## Bettyboo

I have been consistently against the Yermins in this thread because they thoroughly deserve it, but I have not been dehumanizing - you know like giving folks a number before you put them in a gas chamber, or suggesting you throw bananas to them...

The basic point is that the German behaviour in this Greek issue has been disgraceful. &, that's because they've fuked up really really badly; their liability is massive and their tax payers (once they get over their ignorant nationalism) will turn on their politicians, euro-politicians and bankers if Greece leave the Euro. Greece should leave the Euro because the longer they stay in it the worse things will become for them.

Either the likes of Germany write off the debts or Greece's situation will continue to get worse. You cannot have a nation at 175%+ of debt when other nations have illegal surpluses, and they are all supposed to co-exist nicely - it's just impossible...


Back to your point, PH: Germany are empire building and I hope that get what's coming to them, just as I hope the same folks in the US, UK and elsewhere around the globe get what's coming to them...

----------


## panama hat

> you know like giving folks a number before you put them in a gas chamber, or suggesting you throw bananas to them...


That's about as low and dumb a comment you have made yet, BB . . . you shouldn't wonder if you aren't taken seriously with rubbish like that.  It's not only dumb but also crude and simply  . . . well . . . idiotic




> Back to your point, PH: Germany are empire building


I don't believe Germany is Empire building - if you knew the German psyche you'd know that what they want is safety and security - the generation of those who believed in 'Ein Platz an der Sonne' has been replaced by those who go to the above a few weeks a year.
Economically Germany relies on its own wits and work-ethic . . . they strive to succeed . . . to ensure safety and security.

You say 'Germans' and 'Germany' like they are a homogenous group and ALL have the minds of bankers . . . but then tell me where bankers are any different at their jobs

If you'd get rid of your bigoted vitriol you'd actually make some valid points, but you lose that by your obvious hatred - which is your attitude reflecting your opinion

----------


## Bettyboo

> That's about as low and dumb a comment you have made yet, BB


It's a clear indication of dehumanizing which the Germans on this thread have done endless times, as has been pointed out many many times. You can talk about throwing somebody a banana one minute then deny dehumanizing history and it's language the next. You don't get to cherrypick what terms you feel comfortable with...

In this case, considering all the parallels, you know like Greece writing off the massive debt Germany owed them, are totally relevant. 




> If you'd get rid of your bigoted vitriol you'd actually make some valid points, but you lose that by your obvious hatred


Of bankers, greedy politicians, dehumanizing language and nationalism, you are quite right.

We know for a fact, that Nazi war criminals laid down some of the fundamental European charter. We also know that these war criminals were funded by American and British bankers. You don't get to ignore history when and where you fancy because these people are integrated and still making massive profits.

& don't worry, I have as much vitriol for American and British bankers as I do the German ones; as much vitriol for the British and American crony politicians as I do the German ones; and as much vitriol for the idiotic nationalists from Britain and America as I do the German ones...

In this case, in this context, the German's are federalizing Europe and bankrupting Greece to suit their political agenda. They are not the only ones doing it, but they are the dominant group in this case. So, I won't be using polite language and considering words taboo just to suit some posters 'sensitivities', because these types of discoursal hegemonies are nothing more than politically motivated conventions to hide people that committed atrocities. In the federal sense here, we have a parallel play on discourse with endless committees with similar sounding names, changes in names of entities that control money, etc - thus it's often very difficult to actually see who owes money to whom and who is making profit from it; which is of course the intent...

----------


## Horatio Hornblower

Some can't see Betty




> Originally Posted by panama hat
> 
> That's about as low and dumb a comment you have made yet, BB
> 
> 
> It's a clear indication of dehumanizing which the Germans on this thread have done endless times, as has been pointed out many many times. You can talk about throwing somebody a banana one minute then deny dehumanizing history and it's language the next. You don't get to cherrypick what terms you feel comfortable with...
> 
> In this case, considering all the parallels, you know like Greece writing off the massive debt Germany owed them, are totally relevant. 
> 
> ...

----------


## can123

> You can talk about throwing somebody a banana one minute then deny dehumanizing history and it's language the next. You don't get to cherrypick what terms you feel comfortable with...


This is just sour grapes.

----------


## Exit Strategy

> They are not bankrupt, per se, they are blackmailed by the Euro monetary system.


I rather think you and Herman are on the same side. You are both correct or incorrect depending from where you look.

My take is that Greeks are both guilty and led to become criminal. Euro system made them to borrow up to the hilt with unnatural low rates all backed by euro, so there is at least moral responsibility that Eurozone should face. But then, taxpayers of rich and efficient countries like Germany, Finland and the Netherlands should not pay for free ride of southern Europe. Because it does not end with Greece. You see Hollande? France is bankrupt. Italy is bankrupt. About all of southern Europe is bankrupt. They want transfer union. It means Northern Europe is to pay forever for sick euro 'bros'. Socialist dream come true.

----------


## Exit Strategy

And while Obama is apparently in love with Hollande and "European Project", I watch with interest how good folks in Texas react to kissing euro socialist a**

----------


## panama hat

> I watch with interest how good folks in Texas react to kissing euro socialist a**


 . . . and why would anyone give a flying fuck what Texans think about anything?

The good folks in New Hampshire clearly approve.  FACT

----------


## Exit Strategy

I can say with certainty good folks in New Hampshire do not approve. That is only your euro dream world.

I mentioned Texas for a reason, you would understand if you were American or had some minor knowledge about US - more than your euro leftie tabloids tell. To cut it short, Texas would likely be first to exit the Union. And they would not be joining euro.

----------


## Bettyboo

Terms like leftist and socialist are not really of any value in this discussion. 

Caring for your community is not a 'socialist' or 'leftist' agenda, it's a human agenda. Having the wealthy pair their taxes rather than hide it in tax havens is not a 'socialist' or 'leftist' agenda. Knowing that paying for something with 175% of your income is impossible is not a 'socialist' or 'leftist' agenda either.




> Because it does not end with Greece. You see Hollande? France is bankrupt. Italy is bankrupt. About all of southern Europe is bankrupt. They want transfer union. It means Northern Europe is to pay forever for sick euro 'bros'. Socialist dream come true.


You forgot Spain, Portugal and a few more...

There are two points here:

1) If so many countries are failing within the Euro then this must be a fundamental failing of the Euro. 

2) Follow the money... While the taxpayers pay for these Euro errors, many people (bankers, Euro politicians and some big businesses) make huge profits. 22+ trillion in tax havens, remember - not all from the Euro of course, but a large amount from bankers and politicians while next to none from the average Joe.

Thus, what is the Euro about? It is a cronyists paradise - that's not socialism or leftist, it's not even capitalism, it's cronyism, fraud, corruption and mafia style politking.

----------


## HermantheGerman

> Typical racist comments from a propaganda follower.


I think you have greek blood in your veins. Or why are you acting like a Varoukakis?





> Currently, Greece are at 175%, but if these additional loans go through then Greece will be at over 200%.
> Obviously, to any person with a functioning brain, this position is just impossible; hence why the IMF are looking for a big change in the debt structuring and repayments. 
> 1) Their loan repayments are 175% of GDP - you do understand that  anything higher than 100% cannot be paid, right, Hermann??? You also  understand that loan repayments need to be very very much lower than  100% of GDP for any country to function.


My Goodness, how can I continue this without insulting you....???
Before the EURO Greece already had about 120% According to your rocket science Greece never existed  :smiley laughing: 






> They are not bankrupt, per se, they are blackmailed by the Euro monetary system.


They where bankrupt before the Euro and actually never existed. So how can they be blackmailed?  :smiley laughing: 





> This isn't rocket science, you should be able to understand this simple idea, Hermann...


I have stated facts Bettyboo. Your rocket is not leaving ground just like the greek economy.




> 1) Greece's government is functioning just fine.


Now either you are a complete fool or a Greek.  :smiley laughing:

----------


## panama hat

> I can say with certainty good folks in New Hampshire do not approve.


Prove it.  You waffle on and on, make all sorts of statements without backing them up . . . so go on, show me where your certainty stems from.

----------


## Bettyboo

> Before the EURO Greece already had about 120%





> Currently, Greece are at 175%,





> if these additional loans go through then Greece will be at over 200%.


Do you notice a trend here?

----------


## HermantheGerman

> Originally Posted by HermantheGerman
> 
> Before the EURO Greece already had about 120%
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That greeks are dumb ?

----------


## Bettyboo

As dumb as the folks lending them money?

----------


## Exit Strategy

> Caring for your community is not a 'socialist' or 'leftist' agenda, it's a human agenda


I think caring about community is also about helping the community to survive on its own, perhaps forcing them to do it. 

My sympathy is with Greek people but they chose their direction. It was massive fraud by Euros but Greeks chose to go with it. 





> 1) If so many countries are failing within the Euro then this must be a fundamental failing of the Euro.


Yes. Euro is a political dream, "European Project" was never based on any sound economic model, it is ruining Europe. Not ending there, Fortress Europe wants to kick US and Canada and UK out of the NATO. Ha! Who are you going to call then? Ghostbusters?

----------


## Exit Strategy

> Prove it.  You waffle on and on, make all sorts of statements without backing them up . . . so go on, show me where your certainty stems from.


I have posted research and statistics on this site while I'm yet to see you prove anything. I gladly accept and discuss if and when you post peer-reviewed research to prove your point. For now, I think you are a bad loser. Don't speak to me. End of

----------


## panama hat

> I have posted research and statistics on this site


So, show some proof of your current assertions . . . what you think you may have done in the past is irrelevant to the nonsense you are spouting now (again)

----------


## hazz

well one has to say its a bit dumb to elect a populist who promises brinkmanship to get you a better deal. have him  carry out the promise, loose and stall the echonomy in the process.

Mind you one could also say its a bit dumb bitching about money thats going to greek retail banks, the IMF and ECB is money going to private banks in frnace and germany.

But then thats the thing half the planets a bit dumb and for a decent fraction of the rest. the truth is a matter of faith... like the water to wine thing.... evidence is unimportant, its wishing it was true that counts

----------


## HermantheGerman

> Originally Posted by Bettyboo
> 
> Caring for your community is not a 'socialist' or 'leftist' agenda, it's a human agenda
> 
> 
> I think caring about community is also about helping the community to survive on its own, perhaps forcing them to do it. 
> 
> My sympathy is with Greek people but they chose their direction. It was massive fraud by Euros but Greeks chose to go with it. 
> 
> ...


Didn't Puerto Rico go bankrupt this week ?
How many U.S. cities are already bankrupt ?
The United States IS bankrupt ! Who are you going to call now? Ghostbusters?






> According to Bloomberg,  Schaeuble said, "I offered my friend [US Treasury Secretary] Jack Lew  these days that we could take Puerto Rico into the euro zone if the U.S.  were willing to take Greece into the dollar union.

----------


## Exit Strategy

> The United States IS bankrupt !


US has no trouble finding finance. Because US is competitive economy. IRL Germany is closer to bankrupty. Huge and easy profits against uncompetitive euros have made German economy uncompetitive and led Germans to ignore real competition in the world market. Europe is sinking and shrinking and there is no future in selling to europe.. Greens and SPD of today - are different from SPD of the past who made great reforms and gave new life for German economy Go AfD!

----------


## Exit Strategy

I used to drive fast on German autobahns but now they are crumbling. 

Europe did that, like it did hurt the UK, however UK will survive and Brexit or total revaluation of the relationship with Europe is on the cards. Germans must consider their options too. Being ATM for the south does not really cut it with the electorate in North. It leads to far bigger problems.

----------


## HermantheGerman

> US has no trouble finding finance. Because US is competitive economy.


I thought in the U.S. everything is "Made in China"  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 
Slowly but surely the U.S. is reshoring, meaning "Made in U.S.A." is gaining ground  :Smile: 



P.S. gotta use the Autobahns up north, less traffic less damage.

----------


## Exit Strategy

> I thought in the U.S. everything is "Made in China"


And American companies reap the profits. That is market economy. Chinese companies reap the profits as well. Everyone reaps the profits, it is win-win situation for everyone except for euro socialists, who are left out to die. I'd say sorry but I'm not sorry

----------


## stroller

Where do you think most of the wares in Europe come from? lol

----------


## Exit Strategy

I don't care and world does not care about europe

----------


## stroller

For someone who doesn't care you post a lot about Europe, like in almost every comment you make! 

 :smiley laughing:

----------


## Exit Strategy

Yeah, life is a bitch. I hate it but Nigel was busy.

----------


## panama hat

> I don't care and world does not care about europe





> For someone who doesn't care you post a lot about Europe, like in almost every comment you make!


I was going to say the same thing - in another thread he compares Seattle to Europe and concludes Seattle is better (than a whole continent) because it has internet, electricity and shops are open. 

Something bad must have happened to the guy in Europe -too many asylum applications rejected . . . Serbs have a bad history

----------


## stroller

Probably escaped from an Eastern shithole and been surviving on social benefits in the EU.
A case of biting the hand which feeds...

----------


## panama hat

> Probably escaped from an Eastern shithole and been surviving on social benefits in the EU.
> A case of biting the hand which feeds...


But now has gud pasporte Yes?


Certainly sounds like it . . . even pretended to be Dutch before he was easily caught out.

----------


## hazz

Well lets be honest most countries are fucked, with varying degrees unsustainable economics, resource usage and environmental vandalism.  (which makes laa this us better the eu rubbish more than pointless) 

And whilst we are not going down the road as quickly as the greeks, we have the same challenges to make difficult decisions change our lives and our beaviours before we are so fucked we have no choice.
I'm not convinced we going to handle these changes better than the greeks.... which is depressing.

----------


## stroller

> (which makes laa this us better the eu rubbish more than pointless)


Translation please!  :Smile: 


And who is "we"?  :Confused:

----------


## hazz

which makes this USA better than the EU rubbish more than pointless

we as in all of us

----------


## panama hat

> which makes this USA better than the EU rubbish more than pointless
> 
> we as in all of us



Got it:

 . . . which makes this '_USA better than the EU_' rubbish more than pointless.

Whew, for a minute I though Exit Strategy had hacked hazz's account

----------


## Warrior

> Originally Posted by Bettyboo
> 
> 
> Typical racist comments from a propaganda follower.
> 
> 
> I think you have greek blood in your veins. Or why are you acting like a Varoukakis?
> 
> ...


Now what kind of a nationalist dumb remark is that?
One can only agree with Varoufakis if one has Greek blood?

I am European - norther European in fact - and from a distance I see this European drama developing. 
Varoufakis in general makes - and has made for many years - smarter remarks than most other players in the drama together.

Take a step back, Hermann - it is like art, one can only truly enjoy and appreciate it from a distance.

----------


## panama hat

> Varoufakis in general makes - and has made for many years - smarter remarks than most other players in the drama together.


Like . . . who?

If he is so brilliant why was he so ineffective?   It wasn't a matter of being the cool, buck-toothed biker in a leather coat figure that he pushed, rather than the obvious jump from theoretical, and theatrical, economics to the harsh reality of the real world that showed him to be completely inadequate. 

He reminds me of a prof at uni who acted completely cool and spent an inordinate amount of time with the students  . . . and thought he was simply . . . accepted.  He wasn't.  He made a fool of himself . . . like Varoufakis

----------


## Bettyboo

> If he is so brilliant why was he so ineffective?


Because he was trying to change a total corrupted system.

He talks sense, has done for many years, but these bankers and Euro-politicians are not interested; it is a gravy train for them, they are in it to secure the power mechanisms and get as much money for themselves as possible. Good, intelligent or socially focused decisions are not on the agenda for the powerbrokers.

It's not hard to work out, PH - look at the British Empire, how it was build from London (the City of London), in the name of the British people, but was just a massive power grab using guns, institutions, coercion, drugs, anything at all to empower a small group of bankers and investors. It's all documented, it's very clear, it's global mass murder, slavery and exploitation for profit; the federalization of Europe is the same thing...

----------


## panama hat

> Originally Posted by panama hat
> 
> If he is so brilliant why was he so ineffective?
> 
> 
> Because he was trying to change a total corrupted system.
> 
> I really don't believe that - not to be contrary to what you're saying, he just comes across as having is own smug agenda and screw everybody else . . . only he found the real establishment doesn't kowtow to people like him - a pure theoretician.
> I can (well, could 25 years ago when I still remembered this rubbish) set up theses and models etc . . . in theory very good . . . in practise . . . nada. 
> ...





> It's not hard to work out, PH - look at the British Empire, how it was build from London (the City of London), in the name of the British people, but was just a massive power grab using guns, institutions, coercion, drugs, anything at all to empower a small group of bankers and investors. It's all documented, it's very clear, it's global mass murder, slavery and exploitation for profit; the federalization of Europe is the same thing...


I don't disagree completely

----------


## hazz

> If he is so brilliant why was he so ineffective? It wasn't a matter of being the cool, buck-toothed biker in a leather coat figure that he pushed, rather than the obvious jump from theoretical, and theatrical, economics to the harsh reality of the real world that showed him to be completely inadequate.


Its the difference between the career advisor and the career decision maker. There's a long history of successful management consultants making poor business leaders. Personally I think it comes down advisors having rarely having to face the consequences  of poor advice allowing them to fall into the traps of ideology and dog. decision makers get to face these consequences and learn pragmatism.

And pragmatism is not something the current greek government started to use before they brinkmanship with the eurozone community stalled the greek economy.

----------


## HermantheGerman

> Now what kind of a nationalist dumb remark is that?
> One can only agree with Varoufakis if one has Greek blood?
> 
> I am European - norther European in fact - and from a distance I see this European drama developing. 
> Varoufakis in general makes - and has made for many years - smarter remarks than most other players in the drama together.
> 
> Take a step back, Hermann - it is like art, one can only truly enjoy and appreciate it from a distance.


Do you live in the urozone ? 
How far from a distance do you enjoy and appreciate this art and not having to (maybe) pay for it ?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## HermantheGerman

> ]
> Because he was trying to change a total corrupted system.


Now you are talking Betty. 
The system IS: the whole country, economy, government, churches,military,schools, hospitals, businesses, etc.

...and now this proud Varoufakis is part of this total corrupted system. Syriza had the chance to change it because they had the people behind them.

But now its time to blame the others again.

----------


## panama hat

> But now its time to blame the others again.


The Greek malaise . . .

----------


## Warrior

> Originally Posted by Warrior
> 
> 
> 
> Now what kind of a nationalist dumb remark is that?
> One can only agree with Varoufakis if one has Greek blood?
> 
> I am European - norther European in fact - and from a distance I see this European drama developing. 
> Varoufakis in general makes - and has made for many years - smarter remarks than most other players in the drama together.
> ...


It's about 10,000 km.

But I notice that you ignore my question - you just ask questions yourself.

----------


## OhOh

> I am European - norther European in fact - and from a distance I see this European drama developing. Varoufakis in general makes - and has made for many years - smarter remarks than most other players in the drama together.


I agree, the more he expresses himself the more my opinion of him increases. Not that other Greeks may or may not be equal or better. But he is getting the attention, now.

----------


## HermantheGerman

> It's about 10,000 km.
> 
> But I notice that you ignore my question - you just ask questions yourself.


You didn't answer my first  (important) question !
Do you live in the urozone ?

----------


## HermantheGerman

> I think you have greek blood in your veins. Or why are you acting like a Varoukakis?





> Now what kind of a nationalist dumb remark is that?
> One can only agree with Varoufakis if one has Greek blood?




_adj._ *va·rou·fa**·kis*
 1.Having  or  showing  a  strong  or  excessive  desire  to  acquire  money and not wanting to pay back,  especially  wishing  to  possess  more  than  what  one  deserves.


2. To  treat  with  gross  insensitivity,  insolence,  or  contemptuous  rudeness.


3. not wanting to fullfill an  obligation  or  liability  to  pay  or  render  something  to  someone  else




I hope I answered your two questions  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 






> In an interview with Bloomberg, the self-declared erratic Marxist said he would rather cut off his arm than accept another austerity bailout without any debt relief for Greece.



How many arms does this proud Greek still have  ::chitown:: 
He might have voted against it, but he is still sitting in parliament waiting for private contracts "Lectures for $$ ".

----------


## Warrior

> Originally Posted by Warrior
> 
> 
> 
> It's about 10,000 km.
> 
> But I notice that you ignore my question - you just ask questions yourself.
> 
> 
> ...


I thought I answered both your questions in one answer: no, I do not live in the Eurozone at the moment, I enjoy it from a 10,000 km distance.

----------


## buriramboy

Germany government gained from Greek crisis - IWH study

The Greek debt crisis has saved the German government some €100bn (£70bn; $109bn) in lower borrowing costs because investors have sought safety in German bonds, a study has found.

Even if Greece defaults on all its debt, Germany would still benefit, says the German IWH institute.

Greece is hoping to reach a third bailout agreement, worth up to €86bn, with its creditors this week.

Germany has funded €90bn so far and wants tough conditions for a new deal.

'Thoroughness before speed'

Greece missed two key payments to the International Monetary Fund in June and July, before a deal on a bridging loan was thrashed out by EU leaders.

The terms of the third bailout need to be reached by 20 August, when Greece's next debt repayment to the European Central Bank becomes due. 

Greek officials said negotiations were in the "final stretch", prompting shares in Athens to jump more than 2%. But leading figures in Berlin were cautious that a final deal was close.

Chancellor Angela Merkel's spokesman Steffen Seibert said "thoroughness comes before speed" and Christian Democrat MP Ralph Brinkhaus suggested that interim bridging finance would be better than "rushing into a bad agreement".

German officials are keen for Greece to sign up to credible pension reforms and privatisation plans, while the Athens government is looking for urgent funding to recapitalise the country's ailing banks.

Any deal will have to be ratified by German MPs, many of whom object to handing more funding to the left-wing Syriza government of Alexis Tsipras.

However, the study by Halle Institute for Economic Research said Germany had made interest savings of more than 3% of GDP between 2010 and 2015, and much of that was down to the Greek debt crisis.

Greece sought its first EU-IMF bailout in 2010 and Germany provided funding over the past five years either directly or through the IMF or the European Stability Mechanism.

The IWH study says every time this year there was a spike in the Greek debt crisis, which made Greece's exit from the euro appear more likely, German government bond yields fell. Whenever the news looked better, Germany's bond yields increased.

Even if the situation were to calm down suddenly, Germany would still be expected to profit from the situation, the IWH argues, because medium- and long-term bonds issued in recent years are still far away from maturing.

Germany government gained from Greek crisis - IWH study - BBC News

----------


## Neverna

..because investors have sought safety in German bonds rather than risking their money buying bonds from the Greek government that might not be repaid. Makes sense.  

For sure, other countries have also benefited.

----------


## panama hat

> ..because investors have sought safety in German bonds rather than risking their money buying bonds from the Greek government that might not be repaid. Makes sense.


It makes more than just sense ~ it is smart, innit

----------


## pompeysbroke

Angela Merkel arrives at Athens airport

Immigration officer asks "nationality"?

"German" she replies

"occupation"? he enquires

"yes, of course"

----------


## Neverna

Is this a clever ploy by Tsipras? Will the "new" government refuse to carry out what was agreed with the creditors and just keep the money anyway? (Money but no reform by the back door?) 


Greece crisis: PM Alexis Tsipras quits and calls early polls - BBC News


*Greece crisis: PM Alexis Tsipras quits and calls early polls*

Greece's Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras has announced he is resigning and has called an early election.

Mr Tsipras, who was only elected in January, said he had a moral duty to go to the polls now a third bailout had been secured with European creditors.

The election date is yet to be set but earlier reports suggested 20 September.
Mr Tsipras will lead his leftist Syriza party into the polls, but he has faced a rebellion by some members angry at the bailout's austerity measures.

He had to agree to painful state sector cuts, including far-reaching pension reforms, in exchange for the bailout - and keeping Greece in the eurozone.

Greece received the first €13bn ($14.5bn) tranche of the bailout on Thursday after it was approved by relevant European parliaments.

It allowed Greece to repay a €3.2bn debt to the European Central Bank and avoid a messy default.

The overall bailout package is worth about €86bn over three years.

*Lost majority*

Alexis Tsipras made the announcement in a televised state address on Thursday.

"The political mandate of the 25 January elections has exhausted its limits and now the Greek people have to have their say," he said.

"I want to be honest with you. We did not achieve the agreement we expected before the January elections."

Mr Tsipras said he would seek the Greek people's approval to continue his government's programme.

Chair of the eurozone finance ministers, Jeroen Dijsselbloem, said he hoped the resignation would not affect the bailout conditions.

"It is crucial that Greece maintains its commitments to the eurozone," he said.

----------


## Bettyboo

> Is this a clever ploy by Tsipras? Will the "new" government refuse to carry out what was agreed with the creditors and just keep the money anyway? (Money but no reform by the back door?)


I doubt it, but I hope so - their only chance is to get out of Europe a.s.a.p.

----------


## pseudolus

> Tsipras quits


Well he want to crack on and get his extremely high paying job with Goldmans, DB or JP MOrgan as promised to him.

----------


## panama hat

> Originally Posted by Neverna
> 
> Is this a clever ploy by Tsipras? Will the "new" government refuse to carry out what was agreed with the creditors and just keep the money anyway? (Money but no reform by the back door?)
> 
> 
> I doubt it, but I hope so - their only chance is to get out of Europe a.s.a.p.


How many more chances do they want . . . who, exactly, is stopping them?

----------


## Bettyboo

^ fear? 

Obviously, various Euro groups/institutions have put the Greeks under all sorts of pressure; the former finance minister stood up to it, the PM didn't.

Taking this new loan, things have just got a whole load worse, they should have left the Euro before - at least they'd get control over their central bank; some privatizations, promote tourism like never before, and starting building an economy that will support the nation...

----------


## panama hat

> ^ fear?


Just passing the buck again . . . blame the Germans, Merkel, the EU, Lagarde, the Aegean Sea, Turkey, Germans, Guinness  . . .  Blame everyone and everything aside from themselves

----------


## HermantheGerman

> ^ fear? 
> 
> Obviously, various Euro groups/institutions have put the Greeks under all sorts of pressure; the former finance minister stood up to it, the PM didn't.
> 
> Taking this new loan, things have just got a whole load worse, they should have left the Euro before - at least they'd get control over their central bank; some privatizations, promote tourism like never before, and starting building an economy that will support the nation...


Fear of being stupid ! Yes !
Did you know that the Greeks are soooo dumb and incompent that they can't  leave the EURO even if they wanted. Yes you heard me right ! THEY CAN'T !
They are too incompent to print up new money and logistically spread it arround and make it function.
And this fact are like so many other thing that I been trying to teach you now for months and months. The only stupid answer you keep bringing up here is some piss up about germans/krauts/nazis etc.

----------


## HermantheGerman

> ..because investors have sought safety in German bonds rather than risking their money buying bonds from the Greek government that might not be repaid. Makes sense.  
> 
> For sure, other countries have also benefited.


I knew we could agree on something  :Smile: .

----------


## Neverna

> Originally Posted by Neverna
> 
> 
> ..because investors have sought safety in German bonds rather than risking their money buying bonds from the Greek government that might not be repaid. Makes sense.  
> 
> For sure, other countries have also benefited.
> 
> 
> I knew we could agree on something .


On the Greek issue, my views are mostly the same as yours.   :Smile:   Amazing!

----------


## HermantheGerman

> Originally Posted by HermantheGerman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Neverna
> ...


Religion divides us money reunites us.  :Smile:

----------


## Neverna

> Originally Posted by Neverna
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by HermantheGerman
> ...


I'm not religious, Herman. I don't know about you.

----------


## panama hat

> Originally Posted by HermantheGerman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Neverna
> ...


Indeed . . . strange bedfellows

----------


## Bettyboo

> Did you know that the Greeks are soooo dumb and incompent that they can't leave the EURO even if they wanted. Yes you heard me right ! THEY CAN'T !
> They are too incompent to print up new money and logistically spread it arround and make it function.


Ignoring the blatant racism, you German bastard, this may well be true. 

My point being that Europeans are being federalized. 

My second point being that this is terrible because a good form of governance is local where people (that means everyone) are able to be involved and have a say in these issues that affect them. A bad form of governance is one that's very far away, one where people have no visibility or say in what's going on. The latter, which is happening now with the federalization of Europe is also the best form of governance for those who want to dominate, steal, deceive and generally be an elitist - not working, per se, but raking in all the coin. It's very communist actually. It also, coincidentally?, was what the Third Reich were trying to achieve... Did you know, that German bastard banker Schroder is now the richest man in England - fuk me, the Fourth Reich are getting closer to their plans of world domination!

----------


## HermantheGerman

> Originally Posted by HermantheGerman
> 
> Did you know that the Greeks are soooo dumb and incompent that they can't leave the EURO even if they wanted. Yes you heard me right ! THEY CAN'T !
> They are too incompent to print up new money and logistically spread it arround and make it function.
> 
> 
> Ignoring the blatant racism, you German bastard, this may well be true. 
> 
> My point being that Europeans are being federalized. 
> ...



Uppps, a perfect description of Greece




> ...not working, per se, but raking in all the coin. It's very communist actually


Your are just not listening and I can see the spit running from your mouth again.
Calling someone dumb and incompent isn't racism. 
 F = Failed ! History & Vocabulary & Economics...please sit down.
 :Sorry1: 

Try next semester and in the mean time enjoy your vacation in Greece. Maybe you can get a job as a teacher there  :smiley laughing:

----------


## HermantheGerman

> I'm not religious, Herman. I don't know about you.


I am a Greek Orthodox !
They are known for their verbal attacks on Muslims, leftists and gays. 

 :smiley laughing: 

Just kidding, not religious.

----------


## Bettyboo

Yes, Herman the non German, Greece haven't shown their best side in this, but there are other issues too, much greater issues of federalization and cronyism on a massive scale that you continually ignore.

BTW, calling somebody dumb and incompetent is not racist, but blanket quotes such as:




> the Greeks are soooo dumb and incompent


and




> you German bastard


are racist.

----------


## panama hat

> Greece haven't shown their best side in this, but there are other issues too, much greater issues of federalization and cronyism on a massive scale that you continually ignore.


But this is about Greeks continuously getting into trouble, receiving aid, bailouts, PMs resigning because they make massive promises, loudmouth finance ministers who are only there to further their own agenda and then resign - preaching austerity while living in multi-million dollar villas (plural) etc . . . 

You want Bilderberg then start a Bilderberg or other conspiracy theories.




> racist


Sorry to burst your bubble but Greeks and Germans are one and the same race, as are the English, French etc...

----------


## CaptainNemo

There's no such thing as "race" (unless you're posting from 1915); "Greek" and "German" are ethnicities; and "Human" is a species.

----------


## panama hat

1917?  Rubbish. 

Please look up 'race' in Merriam-Webster and other sources.

Ethnicities yes . . . so, Greeks and Germans and English (Germans by and large anyway), French etc....  same same

----------


## Bettyboo

I don't care about race or pedantic nonsense, in this context there is clear racism; to say anything else would be inane, just ask any nigger you know...

The Greeks have made lots of errors - yes. But, corrupt bankers and politicians in Greece and the Fatherland are benefiting time after time at the expense of the taxpayers (across all of Europe). That is the rather large elephant in the room that you propaganda believers are failing to see...

----------


## hazz

> Is this a clever ploy by Tsipras? Will the "new" government refuse to carry out what was agreed with the creditors and just keep the money anyway? (Money but no reform by the back door?)


unlikely, all thats likely to happen is that he gets elected, sans rebels, to form a new coalition to carry on as is. to vote for a party promising to break the deal, would see greece loosing the eurozone and quite possibly the european union.

Its a free choice to the greek people to make, free of any responsibility for any consequences resulting from that vote.... aparentally.

----------


## HermantheGerman

Here we go again.
Ground Hog Day ! Part 42

* Greece awaits outcome of Alexis Tsipras gamble: ‘We have all aged’* 

         Polls suggest the embattled Syriza leader might just squeak home in  Sunday’s snap election. But whatever the outcome, exhausted Greeks fear  fresh turmoil ahead

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...yriza-election

----------


## OhOh

The Greeks, hopefully have now given the elected politicians a very clear statement of what they want. Unfortunately, if the result is less than overwhelming, the possibility of violence is a lit match away.

----------


## billy the kid

Syriza voted back in.

----------


## OhOh

> Syriza voted back in.


Plus another party to make a majority. But in reality a hung parliament. Not the best of results, but who can blame the electorate!

----------


## HermantheGerman

HEY ! Look who's back. What a surprise  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 




> *Tear gas, Molotov cocktails deployed during general strike in Greece* 
> 
> 
> 
>           Tear gas and Molotov cocktails have been deployed during a  demonstration in Syntagma Square, Athens, where around 50,000 Greeks  marched on parliament during a general strike.      
> Groups of youths then  broke away from the crowd and began hurling stones and petrol bombs at  police on Thursday. Officers responded with rounds of tear gas and stun  grenades, witnesses told Reuters. 
> 
> The protesters are demonstrating against pension reforms that are part of Greece's third international bailout.
> _"They [government] should be strung up here, in Syntagma Square,"_ pensioner Nikos Ghinis said as he marched in central Athens.
> ...


https://www.rt.com/news/331265-greece-tear-gas-protet/

----------


## HermantheGerman



----------


## OhOh

This will not help German Politicians or Deutsche Bank.

----------


## panama hat

It's about Tsipris and austerity, why not keep it there for this discussion - segueing to Germany and its politicians is just too easy all the time

----------


## OhOh

> It's about Tsipris and austerity, why not keep it there for this discussion - segueing to Germany and its politicians is just too easy all the time


Which country demanded the "austerity"? It's cause and effect, imposed on a sovereign nation and it's population.

----------


## HermantheGerman

> This will not help German Politicians or Deutsche Bank.



That's why they kept it off the headlines. The evening news reported it yesterday at the end. Newspaper take little notice. Unthinkable about a year ago. 

Refugees-Greece-U.K. will bring the EU to fall. GOOD !!

----------


## panama hat

> Which country demanded the "austerity"?





> It's cause and effect, imposed on a sovereign nation and it's population.


So mention all EU states - and Greece requested the bailout

----------


## OhOh

^EuroZone (EZ), not European Union (EU). 

I, for one, believe it was a decision made for financial reasons and to indicate to any other EZ state that there would be no exit available. The EZ is a German Institution because the funds for the EZ are to a large extent provided by the German people. The German banks are heavily indebted, to many organisations, and will " ssist" the "many organisations" fulfill their interests.

----------

