#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Farming & Gardening In Thailand >  >  Self-sufficiency

## Bruno

My question goes out to those who live in a rural community, living on plots of land who lead self-sufficient lifestyles. 

The MIL is getting on a bit now, and Mrs. Bruno and I have recently been mulling over the idea about re-locating to Chiyaphum once she becomes too old to work.

I know nothing about farming, apart from they stink and they take lots of work. 

It is not a large plot, as some here have previously declared to 'owning' 100s of rai, but a modest 5 rai that yields a harvest of Thai fruits and vegetables. I must admit that part of me does like the idea of becoming self-sufficient, whilst the other side of me is not so sure that the pastoral comforts of Isaan life is for me, quite yet. 

Needless to say, if the MIL was to drop down dead (god forbid that would ever happen as I would be beside myself) then something ought to be done about the land and house that exists there. She has a number of teak trees growing there that are still in their juvenile years. 

So, should I make some sort of concerted effort now by putting some money into the place? I read lots of interesting ideas here about growing lime trees and even a small mushroom farm as a way of subsidising a lifestyle there, but as I said, I know nothing about farming. 

The outcome I guess would be to grow enough fruit and vegetables to sustain ourselves whilst yielding enough for Mrs. Bruno to take to the local market and sell. Giving her enough of an income to save a little for herself and take care of her mother. I guess if she could earn an average of around 10 - 12,000 baht this would then be enough for her to get by. 

I have divided opinions about this, so it would be great if others living in the country who grow and farm their own land, covertly of course, could pass on some information about living a self-sufficient life, in an otherwise beautiful part of the world.

----------


## isanmick

I doubt 5 rai would be enough to support you. Sorry to say.

----------


## Yasojack

Bruno you say 10-12000 a month/year?

most isaan farmers struggle each year on there rice crop a year.

five rai is a not a lot, though saying that,depending on what you do, in the heat of the summer, its ball breaking work.

Saying that when i first went to live in the country, i hated it with a passion,anything i wanted to do always had negative comments.

One thing  i have learnt from the country and i enjoy it now, never listen to the locals, if they are pointing out the negatives, find out yourself through your own research.

when i return we are going back to livestock, pigs chickens ducks and turkeys.

Pigs can be a good earner,as  your local, when one of the locals die or having Tamboon its mostly pig they buy,you will be the first they come see,plus if you already have fruit on the land the pigs can eat the fallen crop.

chickens and ducks are also good if there fed properly, we used to have buyers coming from 40kms to buy are ducks.

turkeys could be good for the local farangs that live in the area.

if you plan on planting herbs salads, veg, be sure you land is fenced off, as most locals in the night time help themselves, if its on farm land.

Farming is not easy but if you do decide to become self sufficent its enjoyable to wake in the morning at dawn and just to spend and watch the crops and livestcok progress.

----------


## ENT

Five rai is about 2 acres of land.
Properly handled, that's enough to keep a family and have a small house on it.

Depending on quality of soil, and sufficient water, there is no reason why you can not sustain yourself on that land.
I mean that you can create a subsistence from that area of land sufficient for a small family.
You won't make a lot of money.

Judiciously planted fruit trees that you can harvest the fruit off and sell can be a small part of your cash crop.
Running stock between the trees is desirable, as they manure the ground, so pigs are a good idea,too.

You can run chickens with the pigs, free range, just keep them penned up at night until the first lay is over in the morning, 10 am.
Kakhi Campbell ducks lay in set places, and they travel around in lines, funny to watch, very predictable.
Ducks lay an average of 300 eggs a year per female, while chickens lay only about 200 a year.

Ducks'll eat all your grubs and insects in the vege gardens and won't eat the crops, while chooks will eat the lot, so either fence them off in high fenced3metre high areas or keep them in mobile chiken runs hich you can set up once a week, or clip their wings so they can't fly higher than two to three ft.

Grow as much as you can hydroponically, saves space and can triple the yield off the acreage.

Get a dozen or two bee hives and use them to pollinate your crops and the neighbours fruit trees, they'll be happy and so will you as the bees will give you honey, up to 20 kilos per hive per year.

Grow some trees such as papaya, banana, citrus and any other close to the house for food.
Keep the kitchen garden close to the house too.
Fence it off from the rest of the land if you have stock.

A set of two or three fish ponds will provide another cash crop, and act as a water reservoir. 
The water will have to be cleaned out from time to time, use it to fertilise the trees or vegetable gardens.

These are all stock that you don't have to tend to and feed on a strict daily basis, lets you take off for a few days at a time and not worry about them dying and stuff.

The ONLY big problem you'll have is the thieving Thai neighbours who think that they can walk all over you and nick whatever they like with the excuse that it's their right.

Had a neighbour in Pai who would casually walk into my garden whenever he felt like it and take veges.
I went round to his place in return and helped myself to his papayas, coconuts and ganja. 
I was going to help myself to his missus too, but stopped short of that.

He squawked a bit, but soon shut up, all the three women were on my side.
If you've got a fierce MIL, it's a blessing.

I also got a dog.

Good luck.

----------


## ltnt

Just returned from a visit to the rural farm community.  Just how isolated do you want to be?

What are your current interests?

Do you speak Thai?

Many farmers work in a sort of co-op with each other.  Shared labor when planting and or harvesting.

Crop prices are always fluctuating.  No guarantee on prices.

You have alternate income so you can survive the down periods?

I think you will not like the isolation from your normal routine, but why not give it a try.  Go there and stay a month?

Good luck with your solution.

----------


## ENT

PS.
Make another income from craft or handywork, women love that sort of thing.
You won't be toiling competitively with neighbours if you keep the crops place diversified

----------


## Yasojack

Ent like the way you went around your neighbours home and took his fruit, i did the same, he never came back  to our home again :Smile: wife went ballistic with me as they were having dinner at the time and i sat down and ate there food as well.

----------


## ENT

Ha ha! You can get away with it sometimes, but you can't shout and yell, just do it as if it's your right and see the puzzled look on his face!
Definitely network, co-operate with the locals, go to the war, get well in with the Abbot, make donations publicly.

Above all smile, and don't be slow in throwing the odd party.

It all serves to keep the wolves away.

----------


## Yasojack

wheres the Co-op you know of? be interested i tried to get our village to do the same,they looked at me if i was from a different planet, the only time they help each other where we live is when theres money to be made.




> Just returned from a visit to the rural farm community.  Just how isolated do you want to be?
> 
> What are your current interests?
> 
> Do you speak Thai?
> 
> Many farmers work in a sort of co-op with each other.  Shared labor when planting and or harvesting.
> 
> Crop prices are always fluctuating.  No guarantee on prices.
> ...

----------


## Yasojack

Ye thats the fun of it, the Puzzled face on them.




> Ha ha! You can get away with it sometimes, but you can't shout and yell, just do itas if it's your right and see the puzzled look on his face!

----------


## ENT

Thais are as tricky as a cart load of monkeys, always attempting to pull a fast one on you with a look of total innocence!

----------


## Yasojack

ye agree with that 100%, though i see most things now before they happen, so makes it all the more amusing when i turn it around on them.

been there got stunk before, anything regarding money these days is Chanote up front and only 50% of the value, with down payment of 3 months taken out of the loan, stops them everytime LOL

----------


## ENT

All finances I leave up to my ladies, similarly networking with the locals, the wat, workers etc.
The mia luang is brilliant, finds work for me if I like it, fields all the awkward questions.

----------


## Bruno

> Bruno you say 10-12000 a month/year?


Per month, hopefully. I do understand that farmers out that way do not earn a gret deal, so I wonder, is this figure realistic if you diversify the 5 rai well enough?




> chickens and ducks are also good if there fed properly, we used to have buyers coming from 40kms to buy are ducks.


That is really interesting. Currently she has around 12 ducks and the same number of chickens. Fortunately there is also a large pond with plenty of fish so lots of room for them to run around. Also, how much do duck eggs sell for in Isaan?




> Ducks'll eat all your grubs and insects in the vege gardens and won't eat the crops, while chooks will eat the lot, so either fence them off in high fenced3metre high areas or keep them in mobile chiken runs hich you can set up once a week, or clip their wings so they can't fly higher than two to three ft.
> 
> Grow as much as you can hydroponically, saves space and can triple the yield off the acreage.
> 
> Get a dozen or two bee hives and use them to pollinate your crops and the neighbours fruit trees, they'll be happy and so will you as the bees will give you honey, up to 20 kilos per hive per year.
> 
> Grow some trees such as papaya, banana, citrus and any other close to the house for food.
> Keep the kitchen garden close to the house too.
> Fence it off from the rest of the land if you have stock.


Really good information, thank you. I wonder, did you ever consider about writing a book with all this knowledge 'farang farmers'?

Ducks might be an idea, so too might a bee hive, although keeping them might prove slightly difficult as I have never done anything like this before.

----------


## Ceburat1

Bruno, the most profitable way to farm is; first to feed yourself and family; second to feed the animals so you don't have to buy expensive feed, and 3rd if you do have anything left over to sell the extra money is nice.  I prefer to feed myself and family and the animals without laying out any cash and then to work a part time job for the cash.  That was the way I was living in the States after I retired.  Living here in LOS is grown crops only to feed the family, for the fun of it.  Animals  are a no go if you must buy the feed.  I raise Tilapia for our meat since we like mostly fish. Tilapia  eat algae and very little feed plus they give me free fertilizer with the  water for my garden.

----------


## ENT

Thanks Bruno.
Write a book about it?
Could do. I'm trying to get my biography together no, but got so much on my plate all i can do so far is arrange all the notes and ideas together in case i suddenly pop my clogs without an explanation!

Definitely crop diversification as a basis and get a little racket going that doesn't involve a lot of capital input and space and labour, don't be greedy and think of expanding businesses etc.

Think of ways to add extra saleable quality to what you've allready got.
For instance what can you make from the bees wax?
Corn husks, bamboo, any casual resources there.
Do you like wood turning, leatherworking, carving?Can you paint or draw?
Has your wife a sewing machine? Lots of scope for good Thai fashion!


Bees are not a problem to care for, if you're not allergic to their stings.
It'll only take you a week to learn the ropes of harvesting the honey and one year to see the whole cycle through, you'll know a lot by then. If there's anyone around who's done apiary in your district they'll be happy to show you the ropes.

----------


## ENT

Mushroom and worm farming is another angle, using rice husk and straw for compost.

----------


## Yasojack

Your ladies meaning you have a Mia noi as well LOL




> All finances I leave up to my ladies, similarly networking with the locals, the wat, workers etc.
> The mia luang is brilliant, finds work for me if I like it, fields all the awkward questions.

----------


## Yasojack

A good alternative to buying feed for livestock is rice meal can be bought from the millers very cheaply, i used to alternate from day to day with feed then meal, helps licestock become healthy and better for selling, the more healthy your animals the more they produce.

----------


## ENT

Thai marital relationships are interesting.
It was Mia luang who introduced me to my Mia noi!  :Smile:

----------


## Bruno

> the most profitable way to farm is; first to feed yourself and family; second to feed the animals so you don't have to buy expensive feed, and 3rd if you do have anything left over to sell the extra money is nice.


Totally agree with you. 

Whilst it would be too easy to let this thread run into one of those 'how much money can you make from........', the fact that being self-sufficient on 5 rai in indeed possible is the first step. 

Lots of quality and useful information here so far that I'm sure many, many of us have considered before. I mean, how many of us are married or with a partner from Isaan who has interests back in their home communities, such as land. I think it will be inevitable that, if we are still together, I would find myself moving there at some point. 

The whole concept of being self-sufficient does appeal to me greatly though, I must admit. That is why I wanted to see if anybody here is doing it, and if so, what kind of set-up do you have out in Isaan to feed yourselves?

----------


## Yasojack

Lucky man, wife keeps telling me i should find a mia noi or Gik but i knew what would happen, i would have a Katoey op whilst asleep :Smile: 





> Thai marital relationships are interesting.
> It was Mia luang who introduced me to my Mia noi!

----------


## ENT

Mixed feed and grains is the best for livestock, but green feed is the best of all.

Running pigs free range among trees is  a good method, but a good pen system will fatten them faster and can be very cost effective.
With a good slatted floor V-trough waste system built in, with pens above that, the collected pig-shit can be turned into methane and used to drive your car or for cooking.

The manure can then be spread onto the fields after the fermentation process is over, you can grow a grain crop on that, corn is the best, takes less water to grow than rice.
The corn can be put through a hammer mill and fed to the pigs, mixed with other grains, say peas or beans or rice.
One pint mug of meal per pig per day is enough to feed them as well as water, if kept in pens of 4-5 pigs per pen.

Little exercise, will see you making money out of the weaners at 2 months old and pork at a 6 months to 1 year old, keep a few breeding sows and one boar and you've got a viable financial system going for yourself.

The pigs can pop off like flies in a frost if you get swine fever or some such hit them, but if you keep the numbers down and clean them twice a day you'll have no problems, as the muck is washed into the V-troughs below and all that ends in a sewage tank fermenter. You have to of those, turn and turn about.

It used to take me about half an hour every morning and evening to feed and clean 100 pigs every day, and we never lost one.
This was in Queensland, so comparable temperatures to Thailand.

----------


## Yasojack

Something to remember if you wished to go native, it could be done very very cheaply, a lot of isaan find  there food, and theres a lot that can be ate by them, as long as you have fish and rice, theres always something the villagers can find.

differnet seasons bring different wild foods.




> Originally Posted by Ceburat1
> 
> the most profitable way to farm is; first to feed yourself and family; second to feed the animals so you don't have to buy expensive feed, and 3rd if you do have anything left over to sell the extra money is nice.
> 
> 
> Totally agree with you. 
> 
> Whilst it would be too easy to let this thread run into one of those 'how much money can you make from........', the fact that being self-sufficient on 5 rai in indeed possible is the first step. 
> 
> ...

----------


## ENT

Yeh, neve fall asleep on the job!   :Smile: 

The gik was also sanctioned by Mia luang and Mia noi, as they both worked making lotsa money for themselves and were too busy to talk with me during the day.

The gik is basically my friend who I get to **** sometimes.   :mid: 

They all know each other and are really polite to each other too.

----------


## Bruno

> Little exercise, will see you making money out of the weaners at 2 months old and pork at a 6 months to 1 year old, keep a few breeding sows and one boar and you've got a viable financial system going for yourself.


Mrs.Bruno has a friend who is from Surin. Her family are pig farmers also. She says that she does quite well from this business and sees a good return every month or so. Basically, she funds the project and her parents run the operation (not sure how large a brood she has going). But what I do know is that financially she does quite well out of it.

As you say, keeping a few pigs does create a very viable system ticking over. I'll have to enquire about the cost of some piglets now and see about making an area where a pen can be made.

----------


## ENT

Good luck Bruno.

I need a kip so will be back for a yack later.

You've got good prospects.

----------


## Yasojack

Nice set up LOL, your own little harem.




> Yeh, neve fall asleep on the job!  
> 
> The gik was also sanctioned by Mia luang and Mia noi, as they both worked making lotsa money for themselves and were too busy to talk with me during the day.
> 
> The gik is basically my friend who I get to **** sometimes.  
> 
> They all know each other and are really polite to each other too.

----------


## TizMe

Mrs Tiz is convinced that we'll buy a few rai and grow some fruit & veges.

Not as a money earner, but just to live healthier, without too much chemicals used to produce at least some of our food.

----------


## Rural Surin

> I doubt 5 rai would be enough to support you. Sorry to say.


It could, if one manged well.

What is astounding to me is that the OP is inquiring amongst his brethren and _peers,_ as nearly all contemporary Westerners wouldn't know how to be truly self-sufficient if it were given to them and then wouldn't be able to recognize independency and self-sufficiency if it came up and bit them in the nose.

----------


## tsicar

> Originally Posted by isanmick
> 
> 
> I doubt 5 rai would be enough to support you. Sorry to say.
> 
> 
> It could, if one manged well.
> 
> What is astounding to me is that the OP is inquiring amongst his brethren and _peers,_ as nearly all contemporary Westerners wouldn't know how to be truly self-sufficient if it were given to them and then wouldn't be able to recognize independency and self-sufficiency if it came up and bit them in the nose.


quite correct.
a thai family could possibly sustain themselves on 5 rai, but their idea of self sufficiency and a farang's are probably quite different.
if you were able to live on a diet of snakes, lizards, snails, rats, ants and beetles like many of them do, then it is not a plomplem.
most farang would not have a clue how to survive this way.
the "self sufficient" thai lives this way; does not make enough on his 5 rai to be able to trade what he farms for the kind of diet a westerner (even trying to be frugal), would consider calling food/decent food.
the single flourescent tube which lights up the wooden shack is only switched on when absolutely necessary, and most will not even make use of the very inexpensive "nam papa" , prefering rain and well water because it is cheaper.
every baht is turned over two or three times, and although the lao kao is classified as an essential, it is dirt cheap and does not take much to get them legless.
i managed three years of self sufficiency in thailand, and although i was never reduced to eating rats etc, simply because i did things differently than the thais did, it is still not much of a life for a farang.
forget the dream of some veggies growing in the backyard, a couple of pigs and chickens running about,etc and a decent stress free life, self sufficient in every way.
can't happen unless you are prepared for a serious and shocking drop in living standards.
having posted this, i must say that if self sufficiency was possible on a small patch of land, then thailand is probably the best choice to give it a bash, coz many thais manage it, albeit with the odd handout from the farang who "rescued' their daughter from the whorehouse etc etc.

on 5 rai you are not talking about self sufficiency: you are talking about survival only if you work bloody hard and get lucky.
thais can do it.
farang can't

----------


## Bruno



----------


## AUSSIE EXPAT

Bruno, I have survived in Thai for 5 years on 70 rai which includes rubber and lumyai trees but that's Chanthaburi area.

I think you would need to have some horticultural knowledge if you are having a go on 5 rai. As I tell my wife there is a difference between farmers and those who live on the land.

From what I've seen, most farmers here can survive but you might like to do better than that. 

Depending on where you live now, moving to a rural area means your conversations in your native language will be between you and your other half unless you speak reasonable Thai. There will be the odd farang around and that's about it.

As they say here....Up to you

----------


## Bruno

> i managed three years of self sufficiency in thailand, and although i was never reduced to eating rats etc, simply because i did things differently than the thais did, it is still not much of a life for a farang.
> forget the dream of some veggies growing in the backyard, a couple of pigs and chickens running about,etc and a decent stress free life, self sufficient in every way.


Taking advice from somebody who has done this, and for a long period of time, I ought to take note, quite seriously, about what you are saying. 

I guess maybe you are right, to an extent. It can be all too easy to fall in love with the ideal and romance of living an organic, cleaner, healthier lifesyle out in the country. However, reality ultimately kicks in and the dream doesn't turn out quite as you had planned it. 

Did you document this 3 years that you were self-sufficient in anyway, tiscar? It would be a fascinating read if you did? 

Nevertheless, making a complete lead into total self-sufficiency (with no prior knowledge) might be somewhat foolish. The 5 rai, as I said, was also an issue, but it could be big enough to yield the start of something.  

A friend of mine even suggested starting an eco-farm. Apparently there is a market for this that westerners' are willing to come over and try a sustained life-style experience in rural Thailand for a few weeks. Any thoughts on this?

----------


## Bruno

> I think you would need to have some horticultural knowledge if you are having a go on 5 rai.


Agreed. This is where I find myself at a major disadvantage to those who come for agricultural backgrounds like yourself.

----------


## Bruno

Eco-farming though as a travel industry?

I am not saying this from my point of view only here, but for those of you who already have large plots of land and can offer something different than the traditional get pissed, get stoned, experience the over commercialised islands of phi phi and samui, type tourists. 

Imagine all the facebook updates all over the world? If marketed well, this could be a fantastic way to give something back, whilst making money at the same time?

----------


## AUSSIE EXPAT

Another problem you will face is people in the area will help themselves to your produce, it is a normal thing here it seems.

There may be clever Thais around but most don't live in the rural areas so the farmers are mostly uneducated and continue to do what they have done for the last million generations. If you do the same as them you will get the same money as them, virtually nothing.

I am going to try aquaponics / hydroponics with a view to growing organic foods which is still in it's infancy here but getting started is going to take a while. 

As the Thai middle class grows (pardon the pun) a bigger market is developing for better quality foods etc and I have already done some homework on potential markets for organic produce and I'm surprised at the number of responses I had to buy anything I've got and I haven't even started yet.

There is no doubt growing your own food is the healthier way to travel and if you can sell the excess at the local market then you will make a bit of money but you probably wont be jetting to London or Paris every 3 or 4 weeks to replentish the wine racks.

----------


## AUSSIE EXPAT

Eco farming etc would not be a phrase that many Thais could get their head around so anyone with a larger plot of land would be doing it themselves.

I've always found it amusing here that we foreigners can't work without visas etc cos we will take jobs off the Thais. Where I am most of the Thais don't want to work, they get Cambodians to do it.

----------


## ENT

> or clean up pig shit twice a day,there has to be a better way?


The shed system we used then was super efficient, still is.
It involved loading a wheel barrow up with grain meal and taking it along an alleyway between two rows of 3x3m pens containing up to five pigs each.
I'd turn on the water tap at the first pen, grab the hose and sluice the shit etc across the slightly sloping pen floor towards the slatted floor far side, under which a v-trough drain led the shit to one of the outside fermenting tanks.                                     I'd then pour the required measures of meal into the feed trough, the drinking water was provided in another trough automatically.  This process took a minute or so per pen.

At the end of the first row of ten pens to my left, I'd head back with the half empty barrow of feed down the next set of ten pens, repeating the process at each.
After half an hour or so the whole job of cleaning and feeding the pigs was done.
The process was repeated in the evening. 

Then I'd switch on the hammer mill, pour more corn and peas and a few added vitamins and minerals into the hammer mill which used to take about 20 mins to crush and mix the feed ready for the next morning and evening's feed.

Total time was about 1 1/2 hours per day to clean and feed 100 pigs.
Not a drop of pig shit on me, and the place didn't smell.
Contrary to popular belief, pigs are very clean animals.

We had 10 sows and a boar. they provided us with 10 piglets each on average per sow.
They were housed separately from the fateners in 10 similar pens, taking about 10 mins a feed time to clean and feed twice a day.

Total time to prepare the meal and to feed and clean the lot was 2 1/2 hours a day
Maintenance on the pig shit digesters, was about half an hour per day on average.
All our cooking gas came from that and the rest went to supplement the tobacco kiln heaters.

Once a week or thereabouts we'd pump the digested pig shit into a tanker and spread it over the paddocks. We grew corn there for the pigs.
Took about a couple of hours or so each time.

Looking after the pigs was the easiest perk job on the farm.

When we set it up, we got the sows in first, and each got a number, sometimes a name if they were aq bit different.            Then we bought the boar.
He cost a bit, he had a good lineage.

He arrived on Prince Charles' birthday.

You can guess what we named him.  :Smile:

----------


## johpam

camilla?

----------


## Jesus Jones

5 rai is more than enough to survive depending on what you want to grow.  If you have the opportunity to be SS providing your own food rather than the shit that's available in the market these days, i'd grab it while you have the chance.

----------


## baldrick

> I am going to try aquaponics / hydroponics with a view to growing organic foods which is still in it's infancy here but getting started is going to take a while.


you may find this thread from a couple of years ago interesting

https://teakdoor.com/farming-and-gard...droponics.html (Hydroponics)

----------


## Rural Surin

And then, after all that toil, you're children will have stayed in the area having gathered the same lifestyle and property looking after Mom and Pop.

Utopia.

----------


## ltnt

> wheres the Co-op you know of? be interested i tried to get our village to do the same,they looked at me if i was from a different planet, the only time they help each other where we live is when theres money to be made.
> 
> Chiang Saen.  They also trade work for food, building trade and use of farm machinery.  I suspect that since they are all generally related through marriages over the past two thousand years it helps in the relationships.  Northern Thais are different kind of people.  More Lao/Thai/Burma/Lana influence as well as animist belief system.  A good day for anything important is always preceded by a visit to the local Wat and the head Monk for advice on when to take action.  Unfortunately as with all Thai men, drinking is a problem.  The females are the real backbone of the community.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The location is in the "Golden Triangle area.  North of Chiang Rai, south of Mai Sai and adjacent to the Mekong River.

----------


## AUSSIE EXPAT

Thank you Baldrick. I see I'm invisible, no idea what that means. Computer genius as you can see.

----------


## tsicar

it is not impossible to make a decent living on 5 rai in thailand, but it IS difficult, if not impossible to make what a normal farang would call decent living, if one was to do it thai style.
if you invested some money and say, covered the entire 5 rai in plastic and farmed veggies hydroponically, and had the market or could export the stuff, then i suppose you could do quite well.
the key is to do things differently to what the thais do, i.e. use your head, not your hands.
i ended up listening to the thais and started farming catfish (thai style)
...took me about a year and a few hundred thou to realize i was on the road to ruin, and so i did a lot of research and studied up on how to do the thing correctly.
that cost an whole lot more, and took another year or so to before i got to the point where i no longer had to throw money into it, and although i could live and pay expenses, it was still a hard life (although i enjoyed it)
i guess it's all up to what you are prepared to be happy with.
i subsisted, and when i say i was self sufficient, i mean that what i sold paid for what i needed. (almost)
kept a few chickens and had plenty mature fruit trees-veggies were a flop coz the neighbours' chickens would scratch them outta the ground as they emerged and about two minutes before they themselves became catfish food and veggies are so cheap that you can't actually grow them decently for what you pay for them at the talaat.
i don't like pigs, and wasn't about to keep and feed one for long enough then go saw the poor bugger's head off just for the few cuts of pork that i am prepared to eat anyway, so i stuck to catfish, because i could do it on a very limited space.

what i am trying to say is that unless you have an angle; an advantage or are doing something differently/better than your thai counterparts, you will have to live like a thai who has 5 rai of land, and i don't know a single farang who could do that for a sustained period.

----------


## Rural Surin

> it is not impossible to make a decent living on 5 rai in thailand, but it IS difficult, if not impossible to make what a normal farang would call decent living, if one was to do it thai style.
> if you invested some money and say, covered the entire 5 rai in plastic and farmed veggies hydroponically, and had the market or could export the stuff, then i suppose you could do quite well.
> the key is to do things differently to what the thais do, i.e. use your head, not your hands.
> i ended up listening to the thais and started farming catfish (thai style)
> ...took me about a year and a few hundred thou to realize i was on the road to ruin, and so i did a lot of research and studied up on how to do the thing correctly.
> that cost an whole lot more, and took another year or so to before i got to the point where i no longer had to throw money into it, and although i could live and pay expenses, it was still a hard life (although i enjoyed it)
> i guess it's all up to what you are prepared to be happy with.
> i subsisted, and when i say i was self sufficient, i mean that what i sold paid for what i needed. (almost)
> kept a few chickens and had plenty mature fruit trees-veggies were a flop coz the neighbours' chickens would scratch them outta the ground as they emerged and about two minutes before they themselves became catfish food and veggies are so cheap that you can't actually grow them decently for what you pay for them at the talaat.
> ...


So, there you go.
You've already touched upon the key to sustaining along the lines with nominal secured land....living like _Thais_ with the model of 5 rai. As most Thais that I know that have at least the 5-7 rai minimum, do quite well and know how work with the little space that they might have. Simply because they know what the fuck they're doing - understand all the tricks and alternatives to maintain. It's life....not looked upon as a novelty or hobby.

----------


## Necron99

I think on 5 rai you could manage a fairly low maintanace diverse diet to feed yourself quite easily, with the exception of rice.
Making a living off of it is something else entirely.
1 rai fishpond (green, tilapia, cats, prawns).
1 rai greenhouse for veggies (hydro)
1/2  a rai given over to chickens, ducks and general workspace/ deadspace
1/2 rai house/garden
2 rai of various fruit trees.
Pigs in the orchard would be good just to keep it clean. Don't know if I would want the trouble though.

----------


## Itchy

We have a 4.7 Rai plot which we are currently renting out to locals to run as a cooperative, they pay Bht1/year for an allotment on the land and the only rules are no chemicals, no glass, no burning stuff. 
I put a pump and water system in for them and they do all the rest themselves - pay the bills, keep the place tidy, plough, plant, harvest and sell the produce.

We plan to move onto the land in the future but for now we are very happy with the fact that the land it getting very well looked after, we're building a good relationship with the neighbours and we return home with a car full of fresh organic vegetables every time we visit. 

I don't think this land will ever provide us with full self sufficiency but it I think it can very easily provide all our fruit and vegetable needs. 

One thing of note: The people who farm our land are just local people, the rule in them getting a plot off land to farm was that they must not have land of their own, or be too old/infirm to get to their land. 
So really just ordinary people who you might expect are not up to speed on the whole organic thing. 

To the contrary they all of them fully understand the benefits of organic food as do many of the people in the surrounding area who call by to buy vegetables straight out of the ground. 

I think an option for the OP is to consider producing Organic Dried Spices and Herbs - Low Volume, Low Weight with a high sale price. Brand these and ship them.

----------


## ENT

You're doing a good thing man, green on the way.   :Smile:

----------


## ENT

The mods are asleep again.

 :Spam:

----------


## ENT

5 rai each is enough to support a lot of Asian families.
The UN did a feasibility study of that years ago, concluding that 2 acres (about 5 rai) was sufficient to support a family of four and one cow.

----------


## Smithson

Some good info here, especially from ENT, what he's describing sounds like permaculture, which is what we're trying to do. First thing is to try to get as much for as little effort/energy and money. This means having everything integrated, so it works together.

We have a lined pond, with a vegie patch on a slightly lower elevation. When water is pumped into the pond, an overflow pipe draws the dirty water from the bottom and drains it into channels in the vegie patch. So we only have to turn on the pump once to add clean water to the pond and water/fertilize our vegie patch.

We also have several lime trees, I'm thinking about fencing them off and having chooks, which would then fertilize the lime trees and give us eggs. The fence would be a trellis, on the outside we would plant things like sweet potato that chooks could eat when the grew inside the pen.

It's best to try to make sure everything has three uses, for example chooks give you poo, eggs and meat, while sweet potatoes give you food, living mulch and are nitrogen fixing.

Changing the ways of the Thais is difficult, the worst one is burning leaves instead of mulching. This leaves you with poor soil that needs to be watered often. We've put down drip lines with really thick layers of rice husks around trees, then planted sweet potato into the rice husks. Now we only need to turn on the pump once a week.

----------


## IsaanAussie

My wife and I have 16 rai and are far from self sufficient. Our pig farm is the centre point of our integrated farming plans and slowly things are falling into place for us. We compost all the manures which we sell a good percentage of, and have started produced organic fertilisers. We have worm beds and produce worm castings and compost. The range of organic products is growing. Fish, rice and vegetables and a new start to chickens and ducks soon. You can do it all here, the emphasis is YOU can do it all! It is mostly hard physical work.
Organic sustainable farming is not what rural Thais do. There are some very good organic farms in Thailand as well as many that are part of the Royal projects. But not run by your Isaan farmer. 
Many of the real challenges havent been mentioned here such as the degraded soils and weed seed loads that have to be overcome. The current total dependance on chemical fertilisers in ever increasing amounts, the misuse and overuse of herbicides and pesticides are factors that will continue to exist right beside your land. 
In reading some of the experiences shared here I assume that these efforts were only possible with the sustained physical input by the authors. I am the same. If I stopped doing it myself, it would all grind to a halt.
One of the largest differences is most Thais know nothing but selling to a passing middle man in a pickup truck. Developing markets for your products or products you can find a market for is a major challenge here that many people like us tend to overlook. 
I built my pigsty so it is easy for one man to handle the work. I spent a lot more than just enough to house pigs as village Thais would do. It is just as well I did, as I would hate to have to operate under those conditions. 
Farming here is not different to anywhere else. Monocropping involves periods of intense work at planting and harvesting and relatively little to do during the growing phases. Self sufficient integrated farming where everything is linked and dependant is a whole new game. It is a constant workload.

----------


## Covertjay

keep pigs away from bamboo. snakes like it too much and they wont buy one that died from a snake bite.

----------


## ENT

Good advice.

----------


## Rural Surin

> keep pigs away from bamboo. snakes like it too much and they wont buy one that died from a snake bite.


Depends on the bamboo, as there are thousands of varieties.

----------


## zeusbheld

> I think an option for the OP is to consider producing Organic Dried Spices and Herbs - Low Volume, Low Weight with a high sale price. Brand these and ship them.


i really, really like that idea. would quite likely cut down on neighbors' tendency to help themselves, if you grew stuff like Italian basil, Italian parsley, etc. and imagine how good your home would cooking be.

----------


## zeusbheld

we may at some point build a house up north (Phrae area) on family land that the family says the kids can build for free on. since My Intended's one of the kids (adopted but still counts), we're considering that longer-term. i think with the amount of sunlight here you could generate a considerable amount of your power with solar panels, and use one of those cheap rooftop solar water tanks to heat your water. an earth house, partially underground, should in principle be well insulated and thus maintain a nice even temperature. 

i can't really see myself having enough ambition to undertake this before i retire though so unless i get a job that's not geography dependent it wouldn't happen soon. also, i would just be looking to set it up so that we always have good things to eat, not as the major source of income necessarily.  

at the other extreme, we're planning on growing herbs and stuff on the apartment balcony. i've started reading up on this sort of gardening.

----------


## Covertjay

> Originally Posted by Covertjay
> 
> 
> keep pigs away from bamboo. snakes like it too much and they wont buy one that died from a snake bite.
> 
> 
> Depends on the bamboo, as there are thousands of varieties.


True, they seem to like the Khorat type that can go without rain for 6 months. That I'm sure of. If you have a pig worth up to 10K that you can't sell coz a snake bit it, well, that's a big hit.

----------


## nevets

> Originally Posted by Rural Surin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by isanmick
> ...


Take a drive around Phetchaburi you won't find maney  living like that most make a good living from the land , but the land is rich and makes good crop and plenty of water from klongs.

----------


## nevets

I have just noticed that most plots of land in my area are 5 rai , is this something that was intended .
We have to plots close together with electric and water from the klong and i have installed bore holes on both aswel .
So the 9 rai we farm is some fruit trees and mostley down to banana and one large lime tree  :Smile:  that grew and on its own , brobly  from the 5rai next door of lime .

As has been said people do take from your land for their own consumtion but not to steal and sell.
But this is mainly herbs and spice and beans or lime  and would mostly take the less salable items .

I would love to be totaly dependant on the land but sadley at the moment i still work anywhere in Electrical Engineering although my home is here , but will retire in 5 yrs and will look at doing it and make better money from the land.

Reeding these posts i hope to find the ansswer to how to do it. :Smile:

----------


## Yasojack

Be interested in seeing, anyones self build pics of Pig sty, if any pics available, i am thinking of going into organic pig breeding in a few months.

----------


## Rural Surin

> Be interested in seeing, anyones self build pics of Pig sty, if any pics available, i am thinking of going into organic pig breeding in a few months.


Best of luck with that, Jack.

Do a good favour for yourself and the immediate community by securing a decent decorum pertaining to pig raising....

Most important are the "daily" hygientic practices that most locals miss.
Making for rather foul smelling neighborhood.

----------


## Yasojack

RS

My intentions are as you have already mentioned, though saying that, i can only blame, the locals for the state of there own breeding grounds and not having consideration for the livestock, i have never encountered a pig farm here in Thailand where they have given the pig, space and a mud pit etc.

As already mentioned by some members, only do something if you have the intention of doing things yourself.

----------


## Winstonthedarkone

> My question goes out to those who live in a rural community, living on plots of land who lead self-sufficient lifestyles. 
> 
> The MIL is getting on a bit now, and Mrs. Bruno and I have recently been mulling over the idea about re-locating to Chiyaphum once she becomes too old to work.
> 
> I know nothing about farming, apart from they stink and they take lots of work. 
> 
> It is not a large plot, as some here have previously declared to 'owning' 100s of rai, but a modest 5 rai that yields a harvest of Thai fruits and vegetables. I must admit that part of me does like the idea of becoming self-sufficient, whilst the other side of me is not so sure that the pastoral comforts of Isaan life is for me, quite yet. 
> 
> Needless to say, if the MIL was to drop down dead (god forbid that would ever happen as I would be beside myself) then something ought to be done about the land and house that exists there. She has a number of teak trees growing there that are still in their juvenile years. 
> ...


If you are anywhere warm, I would forget mushrooms, we are in chiang mai and tried them a while back - complete disaster. They just rotted or failed to grow.

Lime trees - yes they grow OK but you won't make enough from 5 rai.

If I was looking back, I think I would have had a tractor in and had the land tilled, planted some Chili, some Pak Chee, some tomatoes, some potatoes in the shade, a few mangoes, those ladies fingers, and a few cauliflowers, carrots and cabbages.

Stupidly, I have filled the damn place with Lam Yai, which are very tempremental, Mangoes that no one wants to water, Teak trees that take a lifetime to grow!

I think at the end of the year I will kill the wife and bury her very deep in the ground where she will provide the many needed nutrients for my sadly lame trees!

----------


## Winstonthedarkone

> keep pigs away from bamboo. snakes like it too much and they wont buy one that died from a snake bite.


Oh but they will, believe me, nothing goes to waste!

We had a pig bitten from one of those giant poisonous bastard centipedes, the pig turned blue, almost purple, but the wife got 500 Baht for it - and I bet a few people ended up with a hearty meal from mister poisoned porker!

----------


## Winstonthedarkone

> RS
> 
> My intentions are as you have already mentioned, though saying that, i can only blame, the locals for the state of there own breeding grounds and not having consideration for the livestock, i have never encountered a pig farm here in Thailand where they have given the pig, space and a mud pit etc.
> 
> As already mentioned by some members, only do something if you have the intention of doing things yourself.


You also need to be very careful where you locate a pig farm here. Most villages where I am , it is illegal to keep pigs inside the village boundaries - that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but you could find yourself neck deep in pig shit if they turned the tables. They may tolerate it for locals, but you could become an easy target.

----------


## david44

River Cottage viewing has encouraged rasher eating habits

----------


## 9999

> I mean, how many of us are married or with a partner from Isaan who has interests back in their home communities, such as land.


That would be me. I have a few hundred acres back home in Australia I intend to build and eventually retire on. I don't know how you'd do it on 5 rai but hey it's completely different country. Half my plot is acidic eroded hillside and the other half is scrubland. Right now I maintain a herd of no more than 20 cattle and between them and the roos they pick the pasture dry.

To grow fruit, vegies etc will involve using manure as fertilizer. They don't just pop out of the ground like over here.

----------


## BillyBobThai

I just bought 6kg tomatoes here in Chiang Mai for 30 baht. At that price, why grow them.

----------


## 9999

^ Because you don't know how those cheap tomatoes were grown, or if they even contain any real nutrients. They could well also have been sprayed with formaldyhyde or the like. It worries me how long some of these market veges last in the fridge.

----------


## ENT

Most crops grown for market are loaded with pesticides.

The Hilltribe folk who grow tomatoes and strawberries for the local market don't eat them!!
They grow a small patch for home consumption that is fed with buffalo/cow shit and no pesticide.
Smaller (not water swollen) fruit, with a bit of blemish, much tastier and as hard to get hold of as hens' teeth.   :Smile: 

There's an organic food market in Chiangmai where you get some reasonably priced clean product, well worth the extra price.

----------


## 9999

There's also an organic lunch buffet (khun churn) vegetarian restaurant. Great cook and the vegies and herbs and ingredients in general are superb.

----------


## ENT

Where's that?

----------


## 9999

Nimmin heeman soi 17

----------


## ENT

Thanks, I'll check it out.   :Smile:

----------


## Max105

Had a friend who had 9 rai. He tried everything including mushrooms but couldn't make a go of it. The income he wanted to make from the cash crob was to pay the hired hand who gets 6000 bts/month. He never ones raised enough to pay the hired hand.

----------


## poorfalang

> I doubt 5 rai would be enough to support you. Sorry to say.


I believe the OP means self sufficiency(as in Food probably)
and i would say that it is more than enough 5rai
you can grow lots of fruit, veg, swine, chicken, a bit of rice, make your own fertilizer to save cash( maybe even sell extra veg or just use it a feed to animals,(forgot to mention fish too
i think support mean something else but then and again im not engrish

----------


## Rural Surin

> Originally Posted by isanmick
> 
> 
> I doubt 5 rai would be enough to support you. Sorry to say.
> 
> 
> I believe the OP means self sufficiency(as in Food probably)
> and i would say that it is more than enough 5rai
> you can grow lots of fruit, veg, swine, chicken, a bit of rice, make your own fertilizer to save cash( maybe even sell extra veg or just use it a feed to animals,(forgot to mention fish too
> i think support mean something else but then and again im not engrish


Those whom have never experienced or acted upon any such self-sufficiency and independent measures, surely would never come close to understanding.

----------


## Makmak456

we plan on just growing stuff to eat, if we grow enough to trade or sell, a bonus. I would not in a million years try to subsist like a Thai. With my pension we will never have to either.
That said great ideas here that we will use. Mango trees already planted, same with 4 lime trees.

----------


## IsaanAussie

There have been two terms used here. Sustainable and self sufficient. There are differences but together you are talking about being completely self contained needing to buy nothing. That is practically impossible but by minimising waste you get close on a small farm. Integrate everything. Manures and crop residue produce compost and fertiliser. Manures also fertilise ponds that then produce algae and pond life which fish eat so you do not need to buy fish food. Some of the compost is used to feed the worm farm to produce castings and compost. Chickens turn your compost piles. It is not enough to have a bit of a lot of things happening, they all have to fit together.

----------

