#  >  > Computers Can Be Fun >  >  > Computer News >  >  Laptop/Notebook or Netbook

## Missismiggins

I have a young niece who is currently at uni in Chiang Mai, and she is looking for a laptop/Notebook/ Netbbok - I have never had much to do with any of this stuff -99% desktop PC.

She only has around 20K Baht to spend, and is looking for something that do video editing - she has a DVD Camcorder - Sony with a RAM Drive - large fast processor -she needs to edit and process large photo files with something like photoshop.

She wants wireless g or n, a DVD burner and reader that can cope with DVD RAM and the rest, and a firewire port and bluetooth.

The OS is not really important = XP or whatever - but obviously it needs a good sized hard drive, a fair ammount of memory and probably a fair sized processor and a firewire port - do you think buying new that you can get something in this range for 20K?

Personally I think she doesn't have much chance an 2nd hand is the way to go....but...any ideas?

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## melvbot

I dont know of many Windows laptops that have Firewire ports as standard, might need an expansion card. If shes doing video editing she'll need a heftier processor than the netbook ones which tend to be lower powered.

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## BobR

Both Big C and Tesco both  have laptops well under 20,000 baht.  The best part is that they are new and come with a manufacturers warranty.  Anything used in Thailand is always  incredibly overpriced (I don't understand why, but used stuff here costs almost as much as new). Personally I bought mine from Big C because unlike the small shops, it was still  in a factory sealed box and had not been used as a display or anything else.  Every time I've looked at anything in the small shops they've always been opened then shrink wrapped, as if that makes them new again.

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## mediamanbkk

She could get a Dell or an Acer for around 20k and get on site warranty included but a netbook is not only underpowered but the screen is way too small to do anything much in photoshop. Why the necessity of Firewire?

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## Butterfly

ASUS seems to have interesting Netbook and Netops

you can get them for less than 15,000 with WinXP in Europe, could be cheaper in Thailand

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## Gunslinger

Miggins, 

I wouldn't go for a netbook as they don't have an optical drive and are too small for regular use (cute but impractical). Also, I wouldn't buy a notebook PC with anything less than a 15" screen. (I have a Samsung with a 13" screen and whilst it looks good a bigger screen would be more practical). 

As a previous poster said both Asus and Acer do budget priced laptops which I think would be ideal for a first computer or for everyday use. Given the strength of the Baht and the Thai unwillingness to honour guarantees I would also consider purchasing from overseas if that is a possibility.

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## DaffyDuck

> The OS is not really important = XP or whatever - but obviously it needs a good sized hard drive, a fair ammount of memory and probably a fair sized processor and a firewire port - do you think buying new that you can get something in this range for 20K?


No, she won't find it new.

All platform zealotry aside, for what she wants to do with it, she would be best served with a portable Mac - the iLife suite of applications would offer her iMovie, iDVD, iPhoto, etc... all of which lets her do what she needs to do - plus, with the right one, she'd have firewire.

You will be very hard pressed to find firewire on PC laptops. You can find good second hand MacBook systems on eBay for around $500. 

It would be the best choice - as a cheap PC will just end up sitting around, and not being used, resulting in having wasted the money.

I have to agree with the ixnay on the netbooks - they are fun toys, and great for travel, but lacking any sort of optical drive, being limited with memory, and powered by sub-par processors, they are not really useful for much beyond generic tasks.

I'll be flying into town in September - I could bring one along, if you want to go that route.

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## Missismiggins

> Originally Posted by Missismiggins
> 
> 
> The OS is not really important = XP or whatever - but obviously it needs a good sized hard drive, a fair ammount of memory and probably a fair sized processor and a firewire port - do you think buying new that you can get something in this range for 20K?
> 
> 
> No, she won't find it new.
> 
> All platform zealotry aside, for what she wants to do with it, she would be best served with a portable Mac - the iLife suite of applications would offer her iMovie, iDVD, iPhoto, etc... all of which lets her do what she needs to do - plus, with the right one, she'd have firewire.
> ...


I've never even set eyes on a Mac "in the flesh" but from what you and others are saying, a netbook is out of the question, and maybe I need to get looking at Macs instead of Windows based PC's.

I think it's just the fact that all I have used is windows - maybe a time for a change. I will have a look at some Macs if possible, and you reckon a good 2nd hand one can be got for 500 or so?

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## DaffyDuck

Go find a local iStudio Mac store, or so, and just take a look what they have -- or perform some preliminary research by just going to Apple.

Look at the sections under MacBook.

I've assisted friends in scoring MacBooks and the likes from eBay for around $500. Not sure what the local Thai prices are. I'll let you know when I know my itinerary dates, if you want to go that route.

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## slackula

For Apple prices in Thailand this place shows what to expect, from what I've seen all the iStudio places use the same prices:

::: ShoppingMac.com ::: Macintosh for You ::: Macintosh for You

I bought a demo computer from the store here in Phuket for a pretty good discount. When we got it home we realised that it had been registered previously with Apple and so the 1 year warranty had expired.

On the Apple support site there is a section to query this, so we did. They asked us to fax a copy of the receipt to the US, which we did and the next day we got an email saying they had given us another 12 months of warranty. Good thing too because 5 months later my Mrs dropped it and crashed the hard drive. Apple replaced it free, no questions asked and returned it 2 days later all cleaned up and wrapped like new.

Not often you can get decent after-sales service in Phuket, we were astonished!

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## Butterfly

again why spend 500 USD on an old machine when you can have a new one for 250 USD,

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## DaffyDuck

Hmmmm....

New piece of crap that can't edit video vs. old system with the capabilities needed?

That's a tough one.

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## Butterfly

TESCO has very decent machine that would beat any of those old Macs in terms of performance, for half the price, so I am not sure what's your point is, Quack Quack  :Smile:

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## slackula

> TESCO has very decent machine that would beat any of those old Macs in terms of performance


Highly doubtful they'd have Firewire port, and USB adapters look pretty expensive. Do they have bluetooth, I haven't looked at them for years? 

Also I'd hate to be returning a computer to the spazzes who work at Lotus IT departments, I recently bought 4 desktops from Lotus and it was a painful experience - they seem to have the same employment standards as 7-11.

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## Butterfly

^ they are just distributing the PC, not doing any support, so when you have a problem you need to go the manufacturer service center, they are usually very efficient, was pleasantly surprised by the speed of their service

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## Butterfly

> Highly doubtful they'd have Firewire port, and USB adapters look pretty expensive. Do they have bluetooth, I haven't looked at them for years?


yes they do, like most PC laptops these days

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## Missismiggins

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> TESCO has very decent machine that would beat any of those old Macs in terms of performance
> 
> 
> Highly doubtful they'd have Firewire port, and USB adapters look pretty expensive. Do they have bluetooth, I haven't looked at them for years? 
> 
> Also I'd hate to be returning a computer to the spazzes who work at Lotus IT departments, I recently bought 4 desktops from Lotus and it was a painful experience - they seem to have the same employment standards as 7-11.


You must have just been unlucky - I returned 3KG of green rancid pork to my Tesco - they refunded everything without a word - I even had the manager almost crying down his cellphone as I threatened to report him for selling unfit meat!

I also returned a DVD player that the remote would not work - no questions other than -" Do you want a replacement"  to which I replied "NO" and was given a full refund!

Some of the SPAZZES - are the ones whose job it is to follow you persistently wherever you go trying to sell you things you don't need in the first place - For some reason they employ people (but it's not the staffs fault) who cannot even understand which way to put batteries into a remote, or how to connect a USB cable - they really are not SPAZZES - the real Spazzes are the managment for not training them! How on earth do they expect to take someone that may not even have more than two sockets in their homes and expect them to immediately become "Tech Savvy" on 250 Baht a day....the fault lies higher up the chain! (I would defend the 7/11 and Tesco staff around my place - they are at least friendly - and do try - Home Pro - well they are like leeches - they are probably on commision - but BIG C - they are the most ignorant of the lot!

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## Missismiggins

> TESCO has very decent machine that would beat any of those old Macs in terms of performance, for half the price, so I am not sure what's your point is, Quack Quack


Butterfly - do you have any more info? 
Thanks!

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## Missismiggins

The only other thing I would like to ask you about is the Apple OS - is it similar to Windows at all?

Can you sort out problems in the MAC OS similarly to Windows? 

The problem I find, is that in past experience here - they get on the internet - no Antivirus nothing, then download loads of shit till the thing is stuffed full of garbage and hangs - then ask me to try and sort it out - I can generally get Windows machines going, but would I be able to do the same with a MAC?

My Niece who wants the laptop, had her dad buy a new P4  Windows machine about a year ago - her younger brother (12) got onto it - loaded it full of pirate games viruses and anything else - within a month it wouldn't even boot up  - I won't say SPAZZES - (Although I often think it - but again it is down to teaching)

Any thoughts on whether a MAC can be "recovered" in a similar way to Windows, or is the OS totally different?

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## Butterfly

> Butterfly - do you have any more info?


go to the computer section at TESCO, they have different brands for 16,000 or complete desktop solution for 12,000 or even less now




> The only other thing I would like to ask you about is the Apple OS - is it similar to Windows at all?


yes and no, it might looks similar but underneath it's very different




> Can you sort out problems in the MAC OS similarly to Windows?


no, everything is much more sophisticated with a lot of non-sense typical of Apple. The good news is that you are less likely to fuck it up, but the interface can be annoying and inefficient to use, though very pretty.

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## slackula

> I returned 3KG of green rancid pork to my Tesco


Why would you buy 3kg of rancid pork?




> Home Pro


lol, I know (and used to work for) the owning family of Home Pro, if you knew them, and the family dynamics,  you wouldn't be in the least surprised how crap their stores are.




> The only other thing I would like to ask you about is the Apple OS - is it similar to Windows at all?


I'm not touching that one other than to suggest that you read up on OS X and Unix compared to the origins of Windows.

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## Missismiggins

> Originally Posted by Missismiggins
> 
> Butterfly - do you have any more info?
> 
> 
> go to the computer section at TESCO, they have different brands for 16,000 or complete desktop solution for 12,000 or even less now
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cheers for the info - I don't want to get in too deep! I wil check out what you say though - thanks!

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## DaffyDuck

> TESCO has very decent machine that would beat any of those old Macs in terms of performance, for half the price, so I am not sure what's your point is, Quack Quack


I notice you're not actually providing any specific details on the specs of said magical 20,000 Baht box.

Why is that?




> yes they do, like most PC laptops these days


Most PC laptops do not have FireWire -- and thus the interaction stops, as Butterfly has once again resorted to lying and making stuff up, in a quest for attention (you should hang out with Scampy)... unless you can cough up brand, model and specs.

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## DaffyDuck

> The problem I find, is that in past experience here - they get on the internet - no Antivirus nothing, then download loads of shit till the thing is stuffed full of garbage and hangs - then ask me to try and sort it out - I can generally get Windows machines going, but would I be able to do the same with a MAC?
> 
> My Niece who wants the laptop, had her dad buy a new P4  Windows machine about a year ago - her younger brother (12) got onto it - loaded it full of pirate games viruses and anything else - within a month it wouldn't even boot up  - I won't say SPAZZES - (Although I often think it - but again it is down to teaching)
> 
> Any thoughts on whether a MAC can be "recovered" in a similar way to Windows, or is the OS totally different?


You won't have the same problem on the Mac, at all. Macs don't get virus' or malware or spyware, and aren't affected by these issues.

Seriously - virus free. By design.

One of the main reasons why people switch.

I had a friend who perpetually surfed to all kind of porn sites, and weekly undid all the cleaning of his PC that I did -- until I stopped fixing his PC, and told him to get a Mac.

He did.

He never had another problem of the sort, and he kept happily surfing his porn sites.

'nuff said.

Oh, and don't bother listening to Butterfly, as he doesn't know what he's talking about.

I work with the Mac professionally, and I support hundreds of users a day. 

Butterfly doesn't understand the Mac, and sits in his hovel bitching about something he doesn't use.

Do the math. :-)

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## mrsquirrel

> Seriously - virus free. By design


Utter bollocks.

Virus free because there is such a small portion of the world using them

If there no virus's why are there antivirus programes?

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## melvbot

If you want a rough idea of what 20k gets you try here

tohome.com: Shopping Online - Computer Notebook PDA à¸[at]à¸¸à¸à¸à¸£à¸à¹à¸à¸[at]à¸¡à¸à¸´à¸§à¹à¸à¸[at]à¸  £à¹ à¸£à¸²à¸à¸² à¸«à¸¡à¸¶à¸à¸à¸´à¸¡à¸à¹ Expansion Card à¸à¸£à¸´à¸à¸²à¸£à¸ªà¹à¸ à¸à¹à¸[at]à¸ 0%

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## DaffyDuck

> Originally Posted by DaffyDuck
> 
> Seriously - virus free. By design
> 
> 
> Utter bollocks.
> 
> Virus free because there is such a small portion of the world using them
> 
> If there no virus's why are there antivirus programes?


To make money for Symantec and MacAffee.

Please site widespread, or even isolated, Mac OS X virus'

Even if your argument about 'small portion of the world using them' were correct for the reason of lack of virus' on the Mac (it is not, by the way), then that still confirms that there is a lack of virus' on the Mac - maybe you should stick to what you know.

http://movies.apple.com/media/us/mac...19_480x272.mov

http://movies.apple.com/movies/us/ap...es_480x376.mov

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## Butterfly

there are plenty of virus and worms for the Mac, they are not immune, they are not just as publicized as PC are, mostly because nobody cares

there are also enormous security bugs on MacOS X, which force Apple to do massive updates every other months, think of having to install a MS Service Pack every 10 weeks, they are probably now to their Service Pack 12 on MacOS X 10.5

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## Butterfly

> If you want a rough idea of what 20k gets you try here


TESCO carry those brands for a bit less, and as you can see they are not low powered machine, most have FireWire and have everything you need an expensive second hand Mac couldn't do

Only a Quack living under a rock and never exposed to anything outside his little world would have missed that most low priced laptops these days come with FireWire. Of course, in a certain world, only a certain manufacturer could get away with no FireWire on expensive laptops.

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## mrsquirrel

> To make money for Symantec and MacAffee.


ClamXav

Never knew that CLAM was commerical software. Amazing that they have made the decision after all these years to go commercial on the mac.

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## slackula

> Amazing that they have made the decision after all these years to go commercial on the mac.


I hate to nit-pick, but I don't think they could charge for it even if they wanted to, it is based on GPL code.

I have used it since I got my first mac, so far it has only ever picked up on Windows issues at some sites and in some emails.

The only serious Mac security issues affect dolts who download cracked warez from Russian torrent sites (photoshop, iWork) and then enter the admin password during installation, giving the app and anything else in the installer system-wide access. This is nothing to do with OS X security, you can take over any system if you can get some idiot to give root access to your software.

At least OS X asks for a password, Windows can let rogue ActiveX controls run rampant without the user even noticing or ever entering a password.

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## DaffyDuck

> Originally Posted by DaffyDuck
> 
> To make money for Symantec and MacAffee.
> 
> 
> ClamXav
> 
> Never knew that CLAM was commerical software. Amazing that they have made the decision after all these years to go commercial on the mac.


Since you ask so nicely -- the main function of virus software on the Mac is to detect and remove Windows virus' that carried as payloads on emails received from Windows users -- none of those virus' of course have any effect on the Mac, but it's nice to clean up crap before sending it on to others.

Some might argue about 'lots of virus' on the Mac', but I am still waiting for a list of these.

You know, slackula, don't bother -- leave these WinIdiots dealing with their own virus infected world. These are the same guys who believe that having to spend hours every week running 'regular maintenance' on their PCs is 'the way things ought to be', and that reinstalling your Windows operating every couple of months just makes sense to keep their system 'humming along'. Not really much can be argued with people that don't bother actually informing themselves and who's lives are based on cognitive dissonance.

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## slackula

> You know, slackula, don't bother -- leave these WinIdiots dealing with their own virus infected world.


If they choose to use Windows then I wish them good luck, they'll need it! Personally I don't consider them idiots (generally), just brainwashed. That is not the user's fault - the blame for the current state of computer (in)security rests solely with Microsoft via their moronic practices and feeble operating systems with multi-user functionality bolted on as an after-thought.

Anyhow, my post was directed at the OP's questions and the follow ups. There are OS X trojans out there, as I am sure you well know, but you have to be a complete idiot to get one imho.

I have to go to Lotus tomorrow so I'll take a look and see how many of the machines on sale have a Firewire port, I am guessing it will be zero.

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## Butterfly

> Personally I don't consider them idiots (generally), just brainwashed.


coming from a Mac user, that takes the cake. Remember "Think Different ?"  :rofl: 




> I have to go to Lotus tomorrow so I'll take a look and see how many of the machines on sale have a Firewire port, I am guessing it will be zero.


hehe since I bought a few, and they all have FireWire, I can't wait for your report  :Razz:

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## slackula

> hehe since I bought a few, and they all have FireWire, I can't wait for your report


And I am quite OK with being proven wrong  :Smile:  If the PC world is finally catching up to useful technology that is a good thing imho  :Smile: 




> coming from a Mac user, that takes the cake. Remember "Think Different ?"


Not really, but it must have been an effective marketing strategy if you do. I do remember "Where do you want to go today?", the answer was definitely not Windows then (except for the cute chick singing that song, I guess that was around Win 95, maybe XP?), and it sure as hell isn't now.

We have 4 Macs, 2 Slackware boxes and also 6 XP boxes at another site used by 12+ users. The XP boxes are without doubt the most work due to the fact that any user can do almost anything and plugging in a thumbdrive can compromise the entire system as far as I can tell. Setting user permissions is stupidly complicated ie trying to give one user access to the network printer, but not the rest (groups anybody?), they are all going to get migrated to KDE (which I hate) on Slackware sooner rather than later, well until that business can afford to replace all the boxes with Macs that is  :Wink:

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## Missismiggins

Let's not start a WAR here, I was only trying to find out what was the best solution.

After we went through the various posts - I fancied having a go with a MAC, however, she is a bit worried she won't be able to understand how to use it (correct - Mr. Gates has everyone well indoctrinated)

Anyway - the firewire port has been sacrificed, and the main concerns seem to be Processor/Ram/ Harddrive....talk me into the MAC...please...I fancy a change too!

Seriously though, if we forgot about all the fancy bits, what would be a good buy for maximum processing power, hard drive capacity and RAM. (oh and WIFI)

I appologise for posting my "requirements" here, but really, I have no idea what is good, bad or ugly regarding compact PC's - the specs seem totally alien when comparing to a desktop.

I use an old P4 at 2.4 GHZ - but current laptops seem to be at 1.6....it makes no sense to me, how can you tell what is acceptable?

Fo9r instance, I have a P4, 2.XX GHZ processor on a socket 370 Intel GC or CG  cannot remember  - 101D motherboard, with the expensive RAM (1GB) that cannot run in dual channel mode...sold a dud there!

How would an up to date (2nd hand) Laptop compare with speed ?

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## Missismiggins

> Originally Posted by Missismiggins
> 
> I returned 3KG of green rancid pork to my Tesco
> 
> 
> Why would you buy 3kg of rancid pork?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can only answer your first point.

When I bought the pork - it wasn't rancid - and even at the worst markets around here, you have a 24 hour period of non rancidity - to get into the freezer before it becomes like Zombie flesh.

The Tesco pork - or reconstituted human flesh, reclaimed from a local funeral, had, turned a rather unnapetising shade of green in the freezer overnight! (and the stink)

So, being a person of high morals and principals, decided to complain....they don't like that here apparently...it causes a lack of face!

Anyway, to cut a long story short, I got the mobile number of the Tesco manager and gave him a piece of my mind.

The sad bastard asked me to return his rotten pork and wanted to apologise.

After driving about 45 KM to the store, the piece of shit would not even come out of his office to even acknowledge me, however he had preciously instructed his kow towing henchmen to provide me with a refund!

I hung around for a while pestering people who obviously had no influence at all, and ended up returning home.

After a few beers that seemed to clear my mind, I realised I had spent nigh on 400 baht on diesel to return around 300 hundred bahts worth of rotting pork.

So, now I was out of pocket, because Tesco sold me SHIT!

Later that evening ( I think he was getting a blowjob in a Karaoke) I gave him a call - and I layed it on REALLY thick, sex lies and video tape - to the point I had him thinking I was a principal shareholder in TESCO stock.

20 minutes later I was getting phone calls where he was in tears wanting my home address to bring me "GIFTS" and "PRESENTS" the next day.

Needless to say, I refused all the offers and threatened to call my "good friends" Mr Cohen from Tescos and report him...I haven't heard if he did the honourable thing and sacrificed his body to the minced pork counter.

Who knows....but he was eating the carpet, so if I ever get booted out of here 1 NIL! to me.

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## Missismiggins

Hurray!
I just got an e mail from my brother in the UK, tonight, they have been knocking down a piece of HISTORY (the old wooden shed my dad built when we were kids) and guess what was recovered from the debris - the BBC B MICRO! - Time for my son to learn "LOAD THE ACCUMULATOR" "LDA".. " FFEE" 
or whatever

I think I will donate it to my mother so she can send me  E mails, video conferencing and live Chat!

All she needs is a web cam (BBC B compatible) a microphone...didn't those streaming servers (cassette players support this?) maybe someone out there in geekland can tell me how to rig up "super 8 " celluloid film with no audio, to a cassete tape (not MP3)  and have it streamed across the web onto my mpeg 4 platform...surely this is possible - subtitles too...anyone know the bit rate for an 8mm video?

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## Wallalai

> Originally Posted by DaffyDuck
> 
> To make money for Symantec and MacAffee.
> 
> 
> ClamXav
> 
> Never knew that CLAM was commerical software. Amazing that they have made the decision after all these years to go commercial on the mac.


Commercial ?


Click for full size - Uploaded with plasq's Skitch

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## DaffyDuck

> After we went through the various posts - I fancied having a go with a MAC, however, she is a bit worried she won't be able to understand how to use it


I've bought MacBooks at various times to bargirls / friends of mine, and each one of them has had no problems using them after a day of playing with it. They are all quite happily using their Macs now, and I haven't had to do any maintenance, emergency recoveries, virus removals, or what have you, for any of them. Ever.

Draw your own conclusions.

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## DaffyDuck

> Later that evening ( I think he was getting a blowjob in a Karaoke) I gave him a call - and I layed it on REALLY thick, sex lies and video tape - to the point I had him thinking I was a principal shareholder in TESCO stock.
> 
> 20 minutes later I was getting phone calls where he was in tears wanting my home address to bring me "GIFTS" and "PRESENTS" the next day.
> 
> Needless to say, I refused all the offers and threatened to call my "good friends" Mr Cohen from Tescos and report him...I haven't heard if he did the honourable thing and sacrificed his body to the minced pork counter.
> 
> Who knows....but he was eating the carpet, so if I ever get booted out of here 1 NIL! to me.


Crazy Farang!! I buy amulet now.

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## DaffyDuck

> Originally Posted by mrsquirrel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by DaffyDuck
> ...


He was trying on sarcasm.

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## DaffyDuck

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> hehe since I bought a few, and they all have FireWire, I can't wait for your report
> 
> 
> And I am quite OK with being proven wrong  If the PC world is finally catching up to useful technology that is a good thing imho


Notice how Butterfly continues to refuse, I mean, forget, to provide brand names or models.

Yeah, can't wait for your report as well..

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## slackula

OK, back from the chaos that is Phuket Lotus on a Saturday morning..

They had 12 laptops on display, 4 of them (3 Compaqs, 1 HP) did indeed have a Firewire port, but only one of those was under 20K Baht. The most expensive (the HP, approx 29K) was quite well specced though, it looked roughly equivalent to a MacBook.


They all came with Linpus, which I think is based on some older version of RedHat, and after a little bit of looking it seemed that two of them didn't even know they had a Firewire port, so I think some fiddling would be needed to get it recognised.

So, credit where credit is due; Butterfly was right, Lotus do indeed sell Firewire enabled laptops. The cheaper ones probably aren't enough for video editing though (unless you are very patient!) and the supplied OS is somewhat lacking.

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## slackula

> You must have just been unlucky - I returned 3KG of green rancid pork to my Tesco - they refunded everything *without a word*







> I can only answer your first point.  When I bought the pork - it wasn't rancid - and even at the worst markets around here, you have a 24 hour period of non rancidity - to get into the freezer before it becomes like Zombie flesh.  The Tesco pork - or reconstituted human flesh, reclaimed from a local funeral, had, turned a rather unnapetising shade of green in the freezer overnight! (and the stink)  So, being a person of high morals and principals, decided to complain....they don't like that here apparently...it causes a lack of face!  Anyway, to cut a long story short, I got the mobile number of the Tesco manager and gave him a piece of my mind.  The sad bastard asked me to return his rotten pork and wanted to apologise.  After driving about 45 KM to the store, the piece of shit would not even come out of his office to even acknowledge me, however he had preciously instructed his kow towing henchmen to provide me with a refund!  I hung around for a while pestering people who obviously had no influence at all, and ended up returning home.  After a few beers that seemed to clear my mind, I realised I had spent nigh on 400 baht on diesel to return around 300 hundred bahts worth of rotting pork.  So, now I was out of pocket, because Tesco sold me SHIT!  Later that evening ( I think he was getting a blowjob in a Karaoke) I gave him a call - and I layed it on REALLY thick, sex lies and video tape - to the point I had him thinking I was a principal shareholder in TESCO stock.  20 minutes later I was getting phone calls where he was in tears wanting my home address to bring me "GIFTS" and "PRESENTS" the next day.  Needless to say, I refused all the offers and threatened to call my "good friends" Mr Cohen from Tescos and report him...I haven't heard if he did the honourable thing and sacrificed his body to the minced pork counter.  Who knows....but he was eating the carpet, so if I ever get booted out of here 1 NIL! to me.


Let's just say that we have differing opinions on the meaning of "without a word"!  :Smile:

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## DaffyDuck

> So, credit where credit is due; Butterfly was right, Lotus do indeed sell Firewire enabled laptops.


Indeed, I'll give him props, albeit his claims of a lot of them having FireWire fizzled out in light of the evidence of your intel gathering...




> The cheaper ones probably aren't enough for video editing though (unless you are very patient!) and the supplied OS is somewhat lacking.


The question then becomes, how hackintoshable are they?

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## Butterfly

> And I am quite OK with being proven wrong If the PC world is finally catching up to useful technology that is a good thing imho


I will hate to break it to you, but PCs and laptop PCs have been at the top of the game for the last 10 years, leading Apple in all regards. This is what happens when you get stuck with one manufacturer who gets away with lower specs and silly pricing, it gets you brainwash. Time to free yourself from Apple, slackula, "Think Different"  :Wink:

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## Butterfly

> They had 12 laptops on display, 4 of them (3 Compaqs, 1 HP) did indeed have a Firewire port, but only one of those was under 20K Baht.


I have seen at least 2 or 3 below 20,000 THB (ASUS and COMPAQ), different TESCO, different inventory ?




> They all came with Linpus,


You can ask the friendly staff of TESCO to install XP for you, with all the drivers, for a small tip  :Wink: 




> after a little bit of looking it seemed that two of them didn't even know they had a Firewire port, so I think some fiddling would be needed to get it recognised.


Linux distro will recognize FireWire, could be an incomplete install by the local staff, Demos are often software broken

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## DaffyDuck

^ ^ Excuses, excuses.

From the guy who bought a Mac mini and keeps using it....

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## slackula

> I have seen at least 2 or 3 below 20,000 THB (ASUS and COMPAQ), different TESCO, different inventory ?


Absolutely possible, no argument from me there.




> You can ask the friendly staff of TESCO to install XP for you, with all the drivers, for a small tip


Again, I am sure you can, although it'll probably be one of those horrible cracked TrueFaster versions or something.




> Linux distro will recognize FireWire, could be an incomplete install by the local staff, Demos are often software broken


And, I agree again!  :Smile:  My Slacktop has no problem with the IEEE1394 stuff, but as I said a bit of fiddling might be needed on those machines to get it working. I only had a quick look but lsmod, lspci and dmesg didn't seem to have anything related. I'm not good on RedHat based distros so I suppose it might be somewhere else.




> time to free yourself from Apple, slackula, "Think Different"


 I *am* free, I support OS X, Slackware and even XP when I have to on Apple, Lenovo, Asus, Acer, HP and no-name boxes. They all serve a purpose for me, but the Apples have become my "go to" machines over the last year or so.

Anyhow, kudos again, Firewire is available on crappy laptops from Lotus  :Very Happy: 

I am failing here in my effort not to threadjack MM's thread, feel free to PM or start a new thread if you want to know why I like OS X over other OSs

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## Butterfly

> Again, I am sure you can, although it'll probably be one of those horrible cracked TrueFaster versions or something.


actually they use the original XP from the manufacturer  :Razz: 

all those laptops offer an official XP version, but you must pay an extra 15,000 THB, so instead the staff use the official CD and install it for you for a small tip

isn't Thailand great ?  :Smile:

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## Butterfly

> From the guy who bought a Mac mini and keeps using it....


only because it looks pretty next to the TV,

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## slackula

> all those laptops offer an official XP version, but you must pay an extra 15,000 THB, so instead the staff use the official CD and install it for you for a small tip


So if you want a legal, licensed version of XP on one of those cheapo laptops you can count on roughly doubling the cost of the original machine?

That puts them in a similar price bracket with a white MacBook here (but with lower spec hardware), laptop=AMD or Celeron, 1 GB, on-board Intel graphics, ~140 GB HD, XP, total ~32K Baht. White MacBook=Core 2 Duo, 2 GB, nVidia 9400, 160 GB, OS X, one year warranty with support in HKT, ~37K

and OS X comes with a lot more stuff included than XP.

I can see the niche/place for the cheap laptops, indeed we have one somewhere, but if you want a fully functional machine with OS support and with all the specs in the OP then a MacBook looks the better option.

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## Butterfly

^ but you get XP, an OS far more superior than OSX. Why would anyone pay 10,000 THB for OSX ? nobody, that's why they are bundled with the mac laptop  :Smile:

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## Butterfly

the mac laptop as a standalone machine would be very competitive, if they could run XP, I am sure they would sell for less than 20,000 THB

but Steve Job being an idiot, don't want to exit the software business (where they are seriously lagging), he should concentrate instead in the gadget business and the stylish laptops  :Smile:

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## Missismiggins

So,
next best suggestions - the Niece does not want to go with a MAC - ?
She is willing to forget about DVD RAM and fancy sound system.

So any ideas what laptop (yes she too does not want the netbook) would be a pretty good all rounder?

Large hard drive - plenty of RAM - (for some reason she also does NOT want ACER)

What are the basics to look for - as I said in previous posts, I have NO IDEA about laptop specs - so your help is invaluable - (I quite fancied the idea of the MAC - but it's a no go - apperently she reckons they are a bit incompatible with certain printers???? That I cannot understand.

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## Wallalai

> the mac laptop as a standalone machine would be very competitive, if they could run XP, I am sure they would sell for less than 20,000 THB


They can. Never heard about Bootcamp ?

And about the idiot ... he is quite successfull in the business, how about yourself ?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## baldrick

get the cheapest asus or lenovo with a dual core processor

ram is cheap and external HDs are cheap - can always get a pcexpress to firewire card later - though usb2 with a dual core is probably fast enough

just don't get vista




> and guess what was recovered from the debris - the BBC B MICRO!


what do they go for on ebay now ? sell it and buy your mum a netbook with 3g and cam and she can video chat to you via skype.

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## Butterfly

> So,
> next best suggestions - the Niece does not want to go with a MAC - ?
> She is willing to forget about DVD RAM and fancy sound system.
> 
> So any ideas what laptop (yes she too does not want the netbook) would be a pretty good all rounder?
> 
> Large hard drive - plenty of RAM - (for some reason she also does NOT want ACER)
> 
> What are the basics to look for - as I said in previous posts, I have NO IDEA about laptop specs - so your help is invaluable - (I quite fancied the idea of the MAC - but it's a no go - apperently she reckons they are a bit incompatible with certain printers???? That I cannot understand.


She is doing the right thing, taking a Mac would be a dead end

we told you the solution already, go to TESCO, the specs are all about the same, no need to worry, plenty of RAM and have DVD-RW etc... included all for less than 20,000 THB

try ASUS or another brand, it doesn't really matter, they all share about the same specs

Buying a laptop these days have never been so easy, it's a brain dead job

make sure it has FireWire, DVD-RW, Intel Core 2 Duo or similar, avoid AMD like the plague and that's about it, the rest doesn't really matter, they are all equivalent in terms of specs (160 GB HD SATA or non-SATA, 1GB RAM, GeFORCE etc...)

your most important specs is price,

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## Butterfly

> And about the idiot ... he is quite successfull in the business, how about yourself ?


young man, you will find in this world that a lot of idiots are successful and rich, and yet it doesn't stop them for being idiots. Steve Jobs happens to be one of them, but he is not alone  :Wink: 




> They can. Never heard about Bootcamp ?


 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  yes install MacOS first so you can run BootCamp and then switch to XP. You are a wonderful genius, aren't you ?

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## Wallalai

No need to install MacOS X as it is already installed on every new Mac you buy.  :Smile:  Am I not a genius ?   :Smile:

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## Wallalai

> make sure it has FireWire, DVD-RW, Intel Core 2 Duo or similar, avoid AMD like the plague and that's about it, the rest doesn't really matter, they are all equivalent in terms of specs (160 GB HD SATA or non-SATA, 1GB RAM, GeFORCE etc...)


Ok about avoiding AMD.

It's really unlikely you'll get a non-SATA harddrive in a recent laptop.

And 1GB RAM is not enough to smoothly run Windows and Photoshop for example. I would say 2GB is the minimum. Even the actual Linux DE need a lot of RAM. (I don't speak about light WM)

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## DaffyDuck

> And about the idiot ... he is quite successfull in the business, how about yourself ?


It would be so fun to speculate how a business run by Butterfly would do, and how fast (not if) it will collapse. He's the typical turd who thinks it's all about hardware and specs, and fails to comprehend that it's about software.




> yes install MacOS first so you can run BootCamp and then switch to XP. You are a wonderful genius, aren't you ?


It's obvious you don't even know what BootCamp is - why do we waste our time on a piece of trolling shit like yourself -- who is giving bad advice every step of the way in this thread? Why?

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## DaffyDuck

> White MacBook=Core 2 Duo, 2 GB, nVidia 9400, 160 GB, OS X, one year warranty with support in HKT, ~37K


Plus, it turns out the CPUs Apple uses all are Virtualization capable, while even the claimed 'Core2Duo' CPUs on cheap laptops by other manufacturers have the VTx Virtualization Technology disabled (because they are a cheaper part).

Again, most consumers will only find out too late that the cheap Windows laptop they bought suddenly can't run VTx technology (meaning, under Windows 7, they can't run XP mode). I bet we won't be hearing from Butters when he finds out how his great deals don't let him do that..

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## DaffyDuck

> apperently she reckons they are a bit incompatible with certain printers???? That I cannot understand.


She's wrong - Mac OS X will support nearly every printer - but, hey, not my problem, if that's her criteria.

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## daveboy

I just got myself one of these HP HDX X16-1315EA Premium Notebook PC (NW732EA) specifications - HP Home & Home Office products  its not a Mac but its a beauty

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## DaffyDuck

> And 1GB RAM is not enough to smoothly run Windows and Photoshop for example. I would say 2GB is the minimum. Even the actual Linux DE need a lot of RAM. (I don't speak about light WM)


Bear in mind that PC laptops top out at 3GB of addressable RAM -- they might be able to shove more in there, and they will even display claiming to recognize it, but firmware restrictions (in some) and OS restrictions (Win XP) will not allow it to use more than 3GB of RAM - regardless of how much is installed physically.

Current Macs will use, of course, however much you install in it.

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## baldrick

> cheap laptops by other manufacturers have the VTx Virtualization Technology disabled (because they are a cheaper part).


what , like the cheap sony laptops?    

whats with the FUD elmer ?  the virtualisation has been disabled apparently for security reasons. and most can be re enabled in BIOS - if you know enough about VMs to want to be using one , surely you will know enough to enable it in BIOS.

next you will be saying that running a rootkit via hypervisor is impossible on a mac   :Very Happy: 





> Bear in mind that PC laptops top out at 3GB of addressable RAM


only if you run a 32bit OS

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## DaffyDuck

> whats with the FUD elmer ?  the virtualisation has been disabled apparently for security reasons. and most can be re enabled in BIOS


I'm talking about the CPUs that have Virtualization disabled, or actually not even included.

It seems that many current intel cpus even dating back to the Pentium D series cannot run XP mode in Windows 7. This is because Intel decided to not include Virtualization Technology(VT for short) into most of their conroe based cpus, to keep cost down of the processors. Without this VT planted inside the processors, Windows 7 cannot address the program in the correct manner. Here is a list of some cpus that do not support Intel VT.

Q8XXX, E8190, E7XXX, E5XXX, E4XXX, E2XXX, E1XXX, 9X5, 8XX

There are some intel cpus which supports it - all of the e6, i7, atom, and pentium d 9X0 series support VT. However, due to restrictions of the pentium D series, VT is almost useless in an environment like 7. In contrast, all modern AMD cpus dating back almost to most 939 processors and even some 754 processors support VT in their own fashion. 

Furthermore:

A Concrete Reason Macs Beat PCs: Intel VT – Stephen Foskett, Pack Rat




> The latest machines wont run increasingly-popular virtualization software. But there is a very good reason that buyers of the latest Apple machines arent up in arms. It seems that Apple made a deal with Intel to get a special version of the Penryn-3M Core 2 Duo CPUs that do support Intel VT!
> 
> Apples latest Mac Mini, MacBook, and MacBook Pro all sport P7350 and P7450 CPUs, just like competing Dell, Sony, and HP machines. But the Apple CPUs have VT and the PCs lack it. The VT support is gone, and cannot be enabled in the PC BIOS.
> 
> So even a PC and Mac sporting the exact same CPU part numbers arent equal: Every recent Mac will run 64-bit Windows and XP mode in Windows 7 and many PCs wont. And I can run anything I want on my Mac Mini





> Let me be very, very clear on the facts here:
> 
> Most hypervisors now require Intel VT or AMD-V in order to virtualize 64-bit operating systems
> 
> Microsoft requires this technology to use XP mode in Windows 7
> 
> All current Apple Macs (including those that use P7350 and P7450 CPUs) have Intel VT support in their CPUs regardless of what Intel says on the model spec sheets
> 
> Many PCs use high-end Intel and AMD CPUs that support VT or AMD-V, though some have this turned off in the BIOS
> ...

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## Butterfly

^ Typical Mac propaganda, 25 years of tech hype, argument manipulation and distraction to finish at the end with the Intel architecture and a Unix system. You have to wonder when they started to get it wrong, probably from the beginning  :Smile: 




> I just got myself one of these HP HDX X16-1315EA Premium Notebook PC (NW732EA) specifications - HP Home & Home Office products its not a Mac but its a beauty


a beauty, and actually better looking than a mac. I am sure VT is enabled  :Razz:  not that 99% of users would need it anyway  :rofl:

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## baldrick

> You have to wonder when they started to get it wrong


when Woz was sidelined and the marketing droids took over  :Very Happy:

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## Butterfly

^ he is teaching computers to kids in some local high school, the real genius behind it all

he saw quickly that Jobs was a megalomaniac and completely hopeless, he alienated everyone around him,

Steve Jobs became successful too quickly and that went over his head, he went from poor student hippie to billionaire almost over night and was at the front of Time magazine in a matter of months, and made Bill Gates a sore loser in comparison, can you imagine that ? he is still the biggest Silicon Valley Legend and can put to shame most of those dotcom billionaires of the 1990s. Unfortunately, he had no work experience of any kind since he never had any real job in his life, which explains his condescending attitude with everyone working around him, in particular with those who have more experience than him. He is basically a student full of naive ideals who was given a pet project to run at school.

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## Missismiggins

So, if a Mac isn't an option - point me in the right direction!

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## mrsquirrel

> So, next best suggestions - the Niece does not want to go with a MAC - ? She is willing to forget about DVD RAM and fancy sound system.  So any ideas what laptop (yes she too does not want the netbook) would be a pretty good all rounder?  Large hard drive - plenty of RAM - (for some reason she also does NOT want ACER)  What are the basics to look for - as I said in previous posts, I have NO IDEA about laptop specs - so your help is invaluable - (I quite fancied the idea of the MAC - but it's a no go - apperently she reckons they are a bit incompatible with certain printers???? That I cannot understand.


Tell her to be happy with what you give her and pray to Buddha everyday for a year

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## baldrick

> point me in the right direction!


miggins - we posted it before

Asus / Lenovo
dual core
discrete graphics card - nvidia ( can raise the price a bit )
at least 2 gig ram
sata hard drive
720p display if possible
as many ports as possible - firewire , USB , pcexpress , SDHC etc
wireless a/b/g , draft n

tell the wench to get off her arse and look what is available and give us the specs and we can vote on it from there  :Very Happy:

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## slackula

If the Mac is out then my next suggestion would be a Lenovo. I've had three Thinkpads over the years, one when they were still IBM and two Lenovos.

All have been rock solid, not the prettiest laptops to look at but very sturdy and capable. The Land Rover of laptops if you will..

Lenovo laptops with prices in Baht:

Lenovo - Notebook computers

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## DaffyDuck

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> You have to wonder when they started to get it wrong
> 
> 
> when Woz was sidelined and the marketing droids took over


It's unfortunate that neither of you understand what's actually went on...

Woz was out of the picture with the Apple II, and while he's a really nice guy, his amnesia since he's had that airplane accident makes him also rather useless these days. Nice guy, and a decent analog engineer. That's about it.

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## Missismiggins

OK, I have "told the bitch to get off her ass" and posted your reccomendations - now I shall "await a reply from the bitch whose ass I hope has been got off"

Once we get some idea of the Bitches preference - then we can move on!

Thanks again for your help!

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## Butterfly

the only specs you need is price, how much you are willing to spend

the market for laptop is pretty efficient and they usually all match for a certain price range, the OS being the only difference. Of course, avoid VISTA at all cost.

so ask yourself how much you want to put, like 20,000 THB and from there you can make your comparison very easy between the different brands (ASUS, Lenovo etc...)

minimum should be the following:

- FireWire + USB2
- Core 2 Duo
- 160GB SATA
- 14'' or 15'' Screen
- Wifi
- 1GB RAM is more than enough, even for PS, unless you are a professional photo editor or have no clue how to run PS

and again, avoid VISTA !!!  :Smile:

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## Wallalai

> - 1GB RAM is more than enough, even for PS, unless you are a professional photo editor or have no clue how to run PS


Butterfly is right, buy a laptop with 1GB RAM only and then post again in 2 weeks to know how to add RAM to your PC. What a genius this guy.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## DaffyDuck

> the only specs you need is price


Tells you about all you need to know about Butterfly, his background, and his personality.




> Butterfly is right, buy a laptop with 1GB RAM only and then post again in 2 weeks to know how to add RAM to your PC. What a genius this guy.


Haven't we established a long time ago that he's a wannabe french moron? The only issue really is that he passes out blatantly wrong information that might be picked up by newbies who don't know what a cretin he is - though usually after 2-3 posts, it ought to be clear to even the densest newbie...

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## Butterfly

> buy a laptop with 1GB RAM only and then post again in 2 weeks to know how to add RAM to your PC


gee, I wonder how most users managed to run PS for doing basic things for so many years years when their PC could only take 256MB of RAM  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

of course, if you are using a Mac, you need to have 2 GB of RAM just to run that over bloated Finder  :Wink:

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## Butterfly

> Haven't we established a long time ago that he's a wannabe french moron? The only issue really is that he passes out blatantly wrong information that might be picked up by newbies who don't know what a cretin he is - though usually after 2-3 posts, it ought to be clear to even the densest newbie...


 :rofl:  Quack !!! Quack !!!

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## baldrick

> gee, I wonder how most users managed to run PS for doing basic things for so many years years when their PC could only take 256MB of RAM


win98 and 2k ??

1 gig is minimum ok as long as it does not have to share with the graphics chip.

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## DaffyDuck

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> gee, I wonder how most users managed to run PS for doing basic things for so many years years when their PC could only take 256MB of RAM
> 
> 
> win98 and 2k ??
> 
> 1 gig is minimum ok as long as it does not have to share with the graphics chip.


Not a problem if you plan on running Photoshop v1.0 - works on vintage 1990 configurations, which is, I'd guess, what Butterfly uses and recommends -- which I can understand, after all considering that he's unemployed, and (shall we say) lacking 'means', he doesn't really have to be concerned about being either productive, or efficient (reading his building threads drives that point home further).

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## slackula

^ *snicker*

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