#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Construction in Thailand >  >  Thailand - Electric Showers - Water Heaters

## dirtydog

Water and Electric for some reason don't mix too well, actually quite a few Thais in Pattaya have died from badly installed shower heaters, not sure if any farangs have but wouldn't be suprised, now generally these accidents are caused by really crap wiring, ie no earth and stuff like that, so this shower is quite a classic example of what not to allow when you get your water heaters fitted.

In the picture you can see the shower head is actually above the water heating unit, it is about 15 cms away from it, the heater doesn't contain an earth leakage breaker as it is a cheap 3.5kw 2,000baht jobby, although 3.5kw is enough for most of the year and when it gets really cold just let it run for a couple of minutes or turn down the tap a little bit so less water passes through the heating element, also there are only 2 cables going into the unit, neither of these are green  :Sad:  they goto a normal breaker which is by the door on the inside of the bathroom, its a wet floor bathroom  :Sad: 

Obviously the shower heaters are splash proof to a certain degree, but this is just way too close even if it was earthed, when the shower is on the water is going over the casing all the time  :Sad: 



Here is a better shower unit, it is 3.5kw but does have an earth leakage breaker, costs less than 3,000baht and you stand a greater chance of coming out of your shower alive, which is always quite handy.



Also the mains breaker is just outside the bathroom door.

This picture shows that the water heater is well away from the shower head and will rarely if ever get splashes on it.



With the earth leakage breakers you are supposed to check them periodically, doubt many people do, so make sure it has a hard wired earth aswell.

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## BobR

Good post Dirtydog on a much overlooked hazard here.    I was badly shocked at a Jomtien Massage place last year by one of these when my forehead brushed against a metal pipe leading into the unit while I was showering.  Was lucky, ended up on the floor on the other side of the bathroom more angry than hurt.   How can someone tell if theirs is earth grounded? Thank you.

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## tuktukdriver

What do you look for? More than two wires leaving the unit?

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## S Landreth

Good thread! 

The first time I saw one of these water heaters was when I visited Thailand and thought to myself,..What the F! This isnt safe!

Never been shocked, thank goodness. But every time I flip the switch on to one of these heaters,I wonder.

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## watterinja

Excellent thread.

I wonder if Thailand covers the installation & operation of these devices in some sort of building code? If not, are there suitable alternative standards that could be used?

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## robuzo

Really good thread containing important info, nice going, DD.

I wonder if the deaths of American soldiers in showers in Iraq due to faulty wiring installed by that most patriotic of companies, KBR, were caused by these kinds of heaters:
Wonk Room » The KBR Disaster In Iraq
The sad story of Staff Sgt. Ryan Maseth, a Green Beret, really tells it all. He was electrocuted as he showered in a shower stall on a U.S. military base. His mother was told he was electrocuted because he carried an electrical appliance into the shower. She refused to accept that explanation and forced an investigation which determined that the real cause of Sgt. Maseths electrocution was faulty electrical wiring.

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## DrAndy

> What do you look for? More than two wires leaving the unit?


no dead body on the floor is good

I remember a guest house in Laos where the shower unit was a little old, and the wiring was totally exposed with a breaker that a museum would pay a fortune for

It even sparked and arced during use, eventually giving off a slight burning aroma

I only used it once

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## dirtydog

Actually another thing which I have seen quite often is the valves on the cheap ones similar to the first picture are installed on the wrong side of the shower unit, these shower units work on pressure, ie when there is water pressure it flips a pressure switch to turn on the heating element, there should only be pressure when the valve is turned on, so this needs to be on the feed side of the shower, not the outlet side, normally if it is on the outlet side the heating element stays on and eventually the whole unit becomes a molten mass of burnt plastic.

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## TizMe

> building code


 :smiley laughing:

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## isdatu

Is there a standard 'feed in side' of the unit? right or left? I had a new one installed and it wasn't working that well so got the landlord to send someone back to look at it. Chap said it was back to front (the water inlet) the guy that put it in was the plumber, electrician, carpenter, jack of all trades master of none. Now the light comes on the unit when I turn the water on, so seems O.K. I'm a sparky by trade and I am constantly amazed by 'who gives a fek, it's sorta working' LABOURERS.
We know when they have messed up the plumbing as you will see the water leaking, but with electricity?????????

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## DrAndy

> We know when they have messed up the plumbing as you will see the water leaking, but with electricity?????????


even easier, but it hurts more

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## Loy Toy

They are all shite DD and I only use Solar Panel heated water to service my houses. 

These wall mounted electric heating units burn out regularly and are a fvcking eye-sore apart from the fact they are dangerous when not fitted correctly.

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## dirtydog

Sadly most farangs coming to Thailand don't get to stay at your houses loytoy, they stay in hotels with shower units just like these  :Smile: 
Actually I use these in my place, they are all over 7 years old and work fine.

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## BobR

Attention to detail, like polarity and grounding is not one of the Thai's good qualities.  The first time I saw one of these was when I went to London in the 1990's, but I was not as concerned there about whether it was properly installed.

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## DrAndy

> They are all shite DD and I only use Solar Panel heated water to service my houses. These wall mounted electric heating units burn out regularly and are a fvcking eye-sore apart from the fact they are dangerous when not fitted correctly.


I would definitely agree Solar heating is better but the electric heaters I have used previously all worked fine for a long time, still do. I did need a service engineer round one time, and it cost B200 to fix 

However, they are Japanese. The Thai made ones are as bad as their cheap kettles etc, dangerous and break down quickly

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## watterinja

Use the Steibel-Eltron brand - they are well-made.

.:Welcome to Stiebel Eltron :. The water heater Germans love most

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## Loy Toy

> However, they are Japanese. The Thai made ones are as bad as their cheap kettles etc, dangerous and break down quickly


Exactly and when you start adding up 5 or 6 imported or top quality Japanese water heaters, and although they do a good job and are mostly reliable there is not a lot of investment difference when considering one medium sized solar panel.

Not to mention the savings in electricity you will find the payback is very quick. 

Just the look of them hanging on the walls in a nicely tiled bathroom makes me want to vomit.

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## DrAndy

> Just the look of them hanging on the walls in a nicely tiled bathroom makes me want to vomit.


luckily it is tiled then

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## dirtydog

Would one medium sized solar panel be enough for a 5 or 6 bathroom place?

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## Loy Toy

^ I run a medium sized unit which from memory cost me 60 odd thousand baht fitted and we ran 3/4/5 bathrooms, the kitchen and laundry and never had a problem.

Always had boiling hot water and the savings re; electricity is noticeable.

I have also purchased wall mounted water heaters that cost up too and over 10,000 Baht each fitted in other houses.

On the larger house we have 5 bedrooms, 2 kitchens and large laundrey and have 2 Thai made solar units which cost 80k and have operated without problem for the last 6 years. One services upstairs and the other downstairs.

Really there is no comparison as far as I am concerned regarding intitial investment and later on return on investment as well we get hot water we could boil an egg in.

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## dirtydog

This thread really isn't about different ways to get hot water, it is about electric shower heaters and thats about it, most expats rent or lease properties that are already built so don't have the option of getting solar water heaters installed, ie smashing out everything to run copper pipes from the roofs to the bathrooms and that.

Next thread will be about electric bath water heaters and sink water heaters  :Smile:

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## Loy Toy

Fairly nuff mate!

It's your show, carry on and I can't wait for the kitchen sink water heater thread!  :Smile:

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## dirtydog

Bath and sink water heaters are generally one and the same beast, ie they work on water flow where as shower units turn on when there is water pressue, can't find any exciting pictures of bath water heaters at the moment on my hard drives  :Smile:

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## mikehunt

> What do you look for? More than two wires leaving the unit?


It doesn't matter how many wires you see. In Thailand, a third wire may well connect to nothing or connect to a rawl plug in concrete. This is NOT an earth.




> Excellent thread.
> 
> I wonder if Thailand covers the installation & operation of these devices in some sort of building code? If not, are there suitable alternative standards that could be used?


No. Thai Standards do not have any installation requirements regarding domestic electrical items (I've searched them high & low) & as well as that, there are no standards for domestic installations. There are standards on certain products but these standards do not relate to the installation of such products.

In a country such as Thailand, it bewilders me why people bother to buy hot water heaters when solar power is not only abundant but also incredibly cheap. I have a friend in Klaeng (between Rayong & Chantaburi) & he lazily insists upon using hot water heaters. Why? Because he thinks that he won't save much at all. I've tried explaining to him that he will pay NOTHING for hot water (& I mean HOT water...60 degrees plus), if he goes solar.

The "built-in" earth leakage breaker for these hot water units cannot be seen. What type of RCB is it? What is it's trip time? What is the trip current?
I would never trust a "built-in" RCD. On the other hand, I would spend the money & have a proper RCD unit installed just for that particular heating unit. This device needs to have the following;

a] a trip time of no more than 20mS (20 milli seconds).
b] a maximum trip current of 30 mA (30 milli amps).

These things should NOT be adjustable.

An earth wire is good but an RCD is better.

Just remember, an RCD (an earth leakage device) is NOT the ultimate protection. The ULTIMATE protection is to have your whole installation properly earthed AND use RCD's.

I'll post some pictures of things soon.

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## dirtydog

I don't like the earth leakage breakers in the shower units, nobody ever checks them to see if they will work, they are in an area of soap and shampoo, it wouldn't take much build up of soap or shampoo to block the breaker from being able to trip, only got to look how much congealed soap collects in your soap dish each week and what a pain it is to clean out, shower unit up for 10 years is gonna collect some.

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## mikehunt

I've just taken some photos of my heater etc. I'll post them in a bout 30 minutes & explain a few things. Sang Som comes first  :Smile:

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## americanmade

fact...these are Outlawed in many country's ..not due too the faulty wiring but their actual bombs that temps can expand water til the small water holding reservoir explodes ...(if a thermostat sticks and bring water to certain levels)...theirs no temp release valve on such units shown in photo above. In all hopes this is connected to a GFI breaker of some sort to protect from shocking..

But again its Thailand ..nothing is a surprise

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## dirtydog

I never ever saw them in the UK, but I have bought some units here in Thailand that were supposedly made in the UK, so they were either fake or they do use them in the UK, or maybe manufacture there for export, can't imagine these would be allowed in the UK.

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## mikehunt

Here's my instantaneous hot water heater. It's a Mazuma MIS-45 (4.5kW). The web address is »ÃÐÇÑµÔ¤ÇÒÁà»ç¹ÁÒ¢Í§ºÃÔÉÑ· MAZUMA

The first 2 pics are of my water heater.





The below pic is about the "ELCB".

Sorry about the poor quality pics but the writing says, "Warranty 2 years. Heater made in UK. ELCB Breaker."

This pic below shows the "earth" wire, which is black.



The pic below is of the cables going into/out of the Distribution Board (DB) in the Electrical Riser on my floor (12th floor). There are no signs of an earth cable/earth cables. There is, however, one cable that is sheathed in green sleeving. I don't know where this goes & no other cables seem to connect to it inside the DB. Therefore, there is not an effective earth for my hot water unit.



In Thailand, which has a disastrous mixture of both American & European electrical standards, the wiring colour code can be confusing.
In some cases, it follows the American method...black = hot (live/active), white/grey = neutral. For the European standards, an active/live/hot can be red, white, yellow, blue, or brown. Earth is always green or green with a yellow stripe.

One of the biggest problems (with single phase installations) in Thailand is that live/neutral polarity is not checked & in many cases not observed. If these 2 wires are incorrectly connected, someone can die very easily.


BTW, "ELCB" stands for Earth Leakage Circuit Breaker. Technically, these devices were voltage dependant & were to a great degree, unreliable. They have since been replaced with RCD's (Residual Current Devices), which act in a totally different manner to ELCB's. The problem is that many people still incorrectly describe RCD's as being ELCB's.

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## DrAndy

> fact...these are Outlawed in many country's ..not due too the faulty wiring but their actual bombs that temps can expand water til the small water holding reservoir explodes ...(if a thermostat sticks and bring water to certain levels)...theirs no temp release valve on such units shown in photo above. In all hopes this is connected to a GFI breaker of some sort to protect from shocking..


that would be strange, as the thermostat would not need to work if the water was not flowing. It is only when the water flows that the heater switches on, then the thermostat operates to control the temperature. So both of those controls would need to fail at the same time. i.e. the pressure switch would need to tell the heater to switch on, even though the water is not flowing, then the thermostat would need to fail. Even then, there is an overheating switch that would cut the electrics, and a breaker for bad earthing

hmmmm




> Sorry about the poor quality pics but the writing says, "Warranty 2 years. Heater made in UK. ELCB Breaker."


yes, the ELCB is made in the UK, not the whole heater

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## dirtydog

I don't think these shower heaters have a thermostat as such, ie working on certain temps, if I press the pressure switch on one it will boil the water regardless of whether it is on 1 or 6, min or max.

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## Marmite the Dog

> I did need a service engineer round one time, and it cost B200 to fix


So did I. Some grumpy English bloke turned up and botched a repair...

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## Fabian

> Use the Steibel-Eltron brand - they are well-made.
> 
> .:Welcome to Stiebel Eltron :. The water heater Germans love most


I used to have one of those in my old apartment. It wasn't even installed in the bathroom but under the kitchen sink.
So why even install them in the bathroom if you want to be safe?

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## DrAndy

> Originally Posted by DrAndy
> 
> I did need a service engineer round one time, and it cost B200 to fix
> 
> 
> So did I. Some grumpy English bloke turned up and botched a repair...


no, he couldn't fix it, so he then called the expert

grumpy, maybe


anyway, in my CM house I have a multipoint heater which serves two showers and the kitchen. It operates on a pressure switch, so when the hot tap is turned on, the heater starts too

unfortunately it does not provide enough hot water for two showers at once, but is a lot safer as it is nowhere near the water splashing areas

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## Spin

> but is a lot safer as it is nowhere near the water splashing areas


Maybe, but if there is an internal problem the water in the pipe will conduct the shock to the person showering.
I would know, i got an electric shock the other day, I was cooking using one of these electric woks which i had washed earlier and must have got some water inside which had shorted and made the cooking area live.
I actually got the shock through a stream of coconut milk i was pouring from a box into the wok.

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## dirtydog

> It operates on a pressure switch,


The odds are it operates on flow not pressure, the taps are after the heater so there is always pressure in the heater.

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## HINO

> Originally Posted by DrAndy
> 
> It operates on a pressure switch,
> 
> 
> The odds are it operates on flow not pressure, the taps are after the heater so there is always pressure in the heater.


Dirtydog, is that the major difference between the 2 types of heaters? The single point use a pressure switch to turn on the heater and the multi-points use a flow switch?

I have been trying to get an answer to this on another forum but so far no one seems to know.

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## dirtydog

The single point shower heaters work on pressure, there is a small diaphragm that when you turn the tap on the water then goes into the shower creating pressure which pushes the diaphragm out which then trips the switch to power up the heater, ie if your tap was after a shower water there would be pressure in the heater all the time so the heater would be on all the time boiling up what little water there is held in the tank.

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## Mr R Sole

> She refused to accept that explanation and forced an investigation which determined that the real cause of Sgt. Maseths electrocution was faulty electrical wiring.


Tight bastards just didn't wanna pay the compo' 'land of the free' my rectum!!! 

As for the showers..just ask a Thai about a band called 'Potato' one of their guys died in a shower BUUUUUZZZZZZ

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## Humbert

Always, I repeat always let the retailer you buy the unit from install it. Home Pro usually has a unit on promotion that includes installation. Or you can contract the installation with them for a moderate fee. The installers always install a ground fault interrupter. 
Do not let Somchai or some local poo lap mau
install it or there will certainly be problems.

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## dirtydog

^Funny you should say that, Somchai works for Home Pro in Pattaya, should I warn Home Pro?

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## DrAndy

> Originally Posted by DrAndy
> 
> It operates on a pressure switch,
> 
> 
> The odds are it operates on flow not pressure, the taps are after the heater so there is always pressure in the heater.


 
probably true DD, unless it is a drop in pressure (unlikely!)  when a tap is opened

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## dirtydog

That would be an extremely dangerous way for a water heater to work in a country where mains pressure can vary from zilch to trickle at any moment  :Smile:

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## DrAndy

yep, all the more fun

so flow it is

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## mikehunt

Almost all single point instantaneous water heaters use a pressure switch (not a flow switch), which is by far, a very good idea.

Take a look at the specs of a heater made by the manufacturer of my current heater. It looks different but it's the same animal. I copied this info directly from the site so grammatical errors do not belong to me. My comments are in yellow.
Link: Water Heater FRESH 4.5



1. Heater Properties.
The heater is made of a combinations of Nylon66 and Fiber, rust resistant, can withstand high temperature (< 200 C) and pressure (< 6 bar), and a good insulator.

2. Rated Power.
FRESH 4.5 rated power = 4500 Watts.

3. Safety System.
ELCB - prevents electric shock. It is installed within the machine and can cut the electricity at 0.1 second at both lines (line and natural) after the electricity starts leaking. This has been tested with EMC magnetic under UL (IEC Standard). This way you can be sure of your safety while machine is operating.

I don't know which IEC Standard this company is referring to but it is a requirement that any earth leakage device is able to operate within 20 milliseconds (0.02 seconds).

4. Points of Use.
For single of use.

5. Temperature Control.
The temperature is adjusted by electronic system.

6. Shower.1 function shower head to suit your need and relaxation during shower.

7. Installation.
Installed by MAZUMA experienced staffs.

8. Guarantee.
Heater - 2 year warrantee. Unit - 1 year warrantee.

9. Other Properties.
8 level of safety system;
1. *Pressure Valve with Micro Switch* - tool for controlloing and testing water pressure at water inlet. It sends electrical signal to the heater via micro switrch. The system will be cut off automatically once no water is coming in.
2. Linear Control and Adjustment; control temperature by using the button to adjust the electricity given to heater.
3. The heater is made of a combinations of Nylon66 and Fiber, rust resistant, can withstand high temperature (< 200 C) and pressure (< 6 bar), and a good insulator.
4. Thermostat is the device which prevents the temperature from exceeding 57C. It operates by controlling the point where electric current is being distributed to the heater. Thus you can be assure of no scalding.
5. ELCB - prevents electric shock. It is installed within the machine and can cut the electricity at 0.1 second after the electricity starts leaking, even if the current is < 15 milliamps.

The minimum requirement is 30 milliamps for domestic purposes. This 15 mA rating is useless without a fast trip time (i.e. less than 20mS).

6. Wires are covered with PVC which can withstand temperature as high as 105 C, withstand electrical current as high as 600 V without getting burnt.
7. Inlet and outlet pipe - made of a combinations of Nylon66 and Fiber, rust resistant, can withstand high temperature (< 200 C) and pressure (< 6 bar). It is a good insulator so you can be 100% sure of no electrical leakage. It also has filter at inlet pipe to filter out dirt from water before running into the machine.
8. The lid is made of grade ABS plastic which is very durable, high temperature resistant (up to 120C) and fire resistant. These properties make the lid to be a good insulator when there is electricity leakage.

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## DrAndy

> Almost all single point instantaneous water heaters use a pressure switch (not a flow switch), which is by far, a very good idea.


DD already said that

then we were talking about multipoints, which are flow switched

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## Mr R Sole

Somtamslap called me last night to inform me that he had just been shocked in his shower!!!!! the new proud father could've been wiped out!!!! 

I had also watched not more than 10 or so mins before my extension lead with bank of plugs in my lounge started to smoke and the wires melt before my eyes whilst my 7mth old was playing not 3mtrs from the damn thing.....

Thailand is a very unfunny joke when it comes to electrics.....incompetant fools..they really are....and makers of crap I might add...the extension socket/bank was made here....Made in China I always expect to be faulty....but this is beyond a joke!!! 

That could've been to TD'ers lost in the space of 30mins!!!!! 

LOShit'e

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## DrAndy

> I had also watched not more than 10 or so mins before my extension lead with bank of plugs in my lounge started to smoke and the wires melt before my eyes whilst my 7mth old was playing not 3mtrs from the damn thing.....


no doubt you checked the max capacity for the extension before plugging in your bank of plugs

they do sell cheap rubbish, but you can choose to pay a little more

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## granite

I would like to answer watterinjas question, I wonder if Thailand covers the installation & operation of these devices in some sort of building code?, as well as address some of the basics of wiring an instantaneous water heater.

  There are two Thai regulations that I am familiar with that cover instantaneous water heaters. The first, Thai Industrial Standard (TIS) 1693-2547, _Industrial Standard for Electric Instantaneous Water Heaters: Safety Requirements_, addresses the construction and characteristics of the appliance, but generally not the electrical installation requirements. The electrical installation requirements are governed by Engineering Institute of Thailand (EIT) Standard 2001-51, _Standard for Electrical Wire Installation for Thailand 2545 (with Revision 1 2551)_. This is the Thai electrical code and it governs, among other things, all electrical wiring in the home. The points below are based on these two regulations.


*Grounding* Whether an appliance must be grounded (earthed) depends on its class, not on the type of appliance. Class 1 appliances must be grounded, whereas class 2 (double-insulated) appliances do not need to be. I know that many electric instantaneous water heaters are class 1 and therefore must be grounded; I do not know whether all instantaneous water heaters are class 1. Regardless, it is easy to determine the appliance class once the water heater is on hand. A class 1 appliance will have a grounding terminal to connect the grounding wire. A class 2 appliance will not have a grounding terminal, and it will be clearly marked with either the words class 2, double-insulated, or with the double-insulation symbol (a square within a squarelook on a cell phone charger or battery charger to see an example of these markings). If you ever see a water heater that has no grounding terminal and is not marked as being a class 2 appliance, throw it away.

  What is the proper way to ground a class 1 water heater? There are many elements required to properly ground any appliance. To start, the grounding wire (called the equipment grounding conductor in the regulation, but Ill keep calling it the grounding wire here) must be connected to the grounding terminal on the water heater. The grounding wire must run back to the consumer unit (the box housing the circuit breaker for the water heater) along with the other two wires from the water heater (the phase and neutral wires). Inside the consumer unit, the grounding wire must be connected to the ground busbar.

  What size must the grounding wire be? Depends on the ampere rating of the circuit breaker for the water heater. If the circuit breaker is 16 amperes, the grounding wire must be 1.5 mm2 or larger. For a 20-ampere circuit breaker, 2.5 mm2 or larger. For 25 and 32-ampere circuit breakers, 4 mm2 or larger. (If the wire type is VAF-GRD, which is a flat multi-core cable with a white sheath, then you dont get to choose the grounding wire size independently of the phase and neutral wire sizes. For this wire type, you size the phase and neutral wires first and accept the size of the grounding wire in that cable.)

  Now we have the water heater grounding wire properly connected to the ground busbar in the consumer unit. But this does not necessarily properly ground the water heater. For the water heater to be properly grounded (and in fact for anything in the house to be properly grounded), the consumer unit itself must be properly grounded. So how must the consumer unit be grounded? I will give a short overview below for a single-phase consumer unit. Dont try to wire according to this descriptionits not detailed enough and there are exceptions (for example if the consumer unit housing the water heater circuit breaker is a subpanel, then proper grounding is more complicated than described below). With the following information, Im only trying to convey that simply connecting an appliance grounding wire to something (a ground busbar, a ground rod) does not properly ground the appliance.

  To ground the consumer unit, the ground busbar must be connected to a ground rod (other grounding electrodes are allowed by regulation, but theyre almost never used in domestic installations). Regulation requires that the ground rod be at least 2.4 meters long, 5/8-inches in diameter (which is about 15 mm), and made of solid copper or copper-clad steel (electroplated, not a copper sheath pressed onto a steel rod). The size of the wire that connects the ground rod to the ground busbar in the consumer unit depends on the size of the service conductors (the mains), but for almost all domestic installations it must be not smaller than 10 mm2.

  The last element for a properly-grounded appliance is this: the neutral service conductor (the neutral wire running from the meter to the consumer unit) must be grounded at the consumer unit. How? The neutral service conductor must connect to the ground busbar in the consumer unit. Then, a short wire the same size as the neutral service conductor must be run from the ground busbar to the neutral terminal of the main breaker. This is called the main bonding jumper in Thai- and USA-regulation parlance, and you can look it up on the internet to read more about its importance in grounding.

  All of the above are necessary, and required by regulation, for proper grounding. In Thailand, most installations do not have an adequate ground rod and the neutral service conductor is not usually grounded at the consumer unit. These two failings render the grounding system for the house ineffective and the electrical system can be significantly more dangerous as a result. Note that grounding a water heater (or any appliance) by connecting it to its own ground rod, as is sometimes seen in Thailand, is dangerous and prohibited by regulation. All grounding wires for appliances, luminaires,  and receptacle outlets must run back to the consumer unit and connect to the ground busbar.

*Earth Leakage Breaker* Instantaneous water heaters have a built-in earth leakage breaker (ELB), also referred to on some units as an earth leakage circuit breaker (ELCB) or residual current device (RCD). Ill use the term RCD because thats the term used in the Thai electrical code. The built-in RCD was required by the 2545 version of the electrical code. Revision 1 to the code, which is now in force, has a more a stringent requirement. It is no longer enough to have an RCD built into the water heaternow, the entire branch circuit must be protected by an RCD. This requirement pertains to whirlpool tubs also, incidentally. There are a few ways to do this. First, the entire consumer unit can be protected by an RCD either with an external RCD, an RCD built into the consumer unit, or an RCD main breaker. Second, an RCD circuit breaker can be installed for the water heater branch circuit. Third, an RCD can be installed in the water heater branch circuit wires outside the consumer unit.

  By regulation, the RCD must have a trip current not greater than 30 milliamperes (mA). All RCDs marketed for domestic use in Thailand meet this requirement. However, better to use an RCD with a lower trip current if one is available. RCDs with lower trip currents are available from some manufacturers. Square D markets RCD circuit breakers with a 10 mA trip current, and Safe-T-Cut has RCD-protected consumer units with trip currents adjustable down to 5 mA, for example.

*Wire Size* One widespread problem with wiring in Thailand is undersize wires. What size wires (the phase and neutral wiresthe grounding wire was covered above) are required by regulation for a water heater? The required wire size depends on the ampere rating of the circuit breaker for the water heater. It also depends on the type of wire used and the wiring method, which complicates things. I will give the required wire sizes for one common wire type and wiring methodwire type VAF-GRD run on the surface of the wall or embedded in the wall plaster. For a circuit breaker of 20 amperes or less, the wire must be 2.5 mm2 or larger. For a 25-ampere circuit breaker, 4 mm2 or larger. And for a 32-ampere circuit breaker, 6 mm2 or larger.

*Safety Breaker* It is customary in Thailand to install a switch for the water heater outside the bathroom. The switch is usually a so-called safety breaker. This switch is not required by regulation.

*Recommendations for Fixing an Installation* In a house with significant wiring deficiencies, what can be done to make instantaneous water heaters more safe? The easiest way to reduce the electrical shock hazard from a water heater is to install an RCD to protect the water heater branch circuit. If there is currently a safety breaker installed outside the bathroom for the water heater, it will be easiest and cheapest just to swap it out for an RCD safety breaker. Haco markets RCD safety breakers under the name Earth Leakage Breakers. Use a 16-ampere circuit breaker for a 3500-watt water heater, a 25-ampere breaker for a 4500-watt heater, and a 32-ampere breaker for a 6000-watt heater. Alternatively, if you have a Square D consumer unit, you can replace the circuit breaker for the water heater with a Square D RCD circuit breaker with a 10 mA trip current. Use the circuit breaker ampere ratings given above for the different sizes of water heaters, except that for a 4500-watt heater you may use a 20-ampere breaker (as of last year, Square D did not market a 25-ampere RCD circuit breaker). Note that replacing a circuit breaker involves opening the consumer unit and working close to live wires. The service conductors (mains) remain live even when the main breaker is switched off. Dont attempt to replace a circuit breaker unless you understand the hazards and how to avoid them, as well as having the equipment you need to be safe. And the final alternative for providing RCD protection for the water heater branch circuit is to install an RCD main breaker (they all have 30 mA trip currents). This is the most expensive option and the most trouble, as it entails working with live wires. Replacing the main breaker should only be done by an electrician.

  Test all RCDs monthly. RCDs can go bad or be damaged by electrical surges from, for example, nearby lightning strikes.

  Repairing the grounding system can be difficult or almost impossible (for one who lives in an apartment building, for example). It requires some expertise to assess the current state of the grounding system and to effect any repairs. But also doing these things can be dangerous because it requires opening and working within the consumer unit. Its frankly beyond the scope of this post. Anyone who is serious about installing a proper grounding system probably needs to hire an electrician or engineer who knows what theyre doing to help. Not sure how to find a knowledgeable electrician or engineer in Thailand. And on that discouraging note, Ill end this post.

----------


## wernerfreitag

I think nobody really cares in Thailand.
Good description for new and old installations.

----------


## mikehunt

> *Standard for Electrical Wire Installation for Thailand 2545 (with Revision 1 2551). This is the Thai electrical code and it governs, among other things, all electrical wiring in the home.* 
> 
> If you, or anybody else, has ever seen this code or has a copy of it, please let me know.
> 
>      To ground the (consumer unit) entire installation, the ground busbar must be connected to a ground rod (other grounding electrodes are allowed by regulation, but theyre almost never used in domestic installations). Regulation requires that the ground rod be at least 2.4 meters long, 5/8-inches in diameter (which is about 15 mm), and made of solid copper or copper-clad steel (electroplated, not a copper sheath pressed onto a steel rod). Electroplated earth electrodes are not recommended. A copper sheathed steel rod is recommended (copper sheath is at least 1mm thick). The size of the wire that connects the ground rod to the ground busbar in the consumer unit depends on the size of the service conductors (the mains), but for almost all domestic installations it must be not smaller than 10 mm2.
> 
>   The last element for a properly-grounded appliance is this: the neutral service conductor (the neutral wire running from the meter to the consumer unit) must be grounded at the consumer unit. How? *The neutral service conductor must connect to the ground busbar in the consumer unit.* Then, a short wire the same size as the neutral service conductor must be run from the ground busbar to the neutral terminal of the main breaker. This is called the main bonding jumper in Thai- and USA-regulation parlance, and you can look it up on the internet to read more about its importance in grounding.
> 
> This is not always the case in Thailand. Many areas DO NOT have the "star point" (neutral) of the supply transformer solidly earthed. For example, in many locations around Pattaya, it is eveident that an M.E.N. (Multiple Earthed Neutral) connection is required whereas in other locations, the M.E.N. system doesn't exist & if an M.E.N. connection is made, it will be a safety hazard.
> ...


The worst thing about Thailand is that it has a horrible mixture of the European system & the American system. Essentially, Thailand uses the European system of electricity. Unfortunately, it also uses the awful American colour code, which exists in only a few countries.
 
Last but not least, you now have learnt that people on Teakdoor don't give 2 hoots about electrical. Perhaps that's why the membership is not increasing? Everybody is getting electrocuted.

----------


## globin

After doing many renovations and rewires here,  I would like to add a warning to anyone tinkering with an existing installation.

DO NOT assume that the water heater breaker is connected to the mains after the main switch.  Quite often wire strippers here will connect the live side of the breaker directly to the mains wiring coming into the house to save a bit of copper.  This means the next protective device between you and electrocution is the pole fuse and they are much less sensitive than even the most basic circuit breaker.

----------


## Humbert

_The worst thing about Thailand is that it has a horrible mixture of the European system & the American system. Essentially, Thailand uses the European system of electricity. Unfortunately, it also uses the awful American colour code, which exists in only a few countries._

You obviously have a lot of expertise in this area. Why is the European colour system better?

----------


## Mr R Sole

> they do sell cheap rubbish, but you can choose to pay a little more


Try telling that to tesco's but mostly my local shop...they only generally have one type...they also state that they have a circuit breaker on it...so it wasn't that cheap...but that didn't seem to work..

I have recently complained to the owner of the house and she stated that the prevoius owners had Air-'con'-- (ain't that the truth...paying for air!!! cold or not..no way for me...some like it hot)-- and when it was removed the electrics went up the spout..(not her words of course)-- I asked the neighbours..they said there electric's were just the same!!! Lying little bitch...

She also stated that the house and street were quiet..well I'm sure we've all heard that one before????

Sounds like Battersea dogs home...when the bitches are in season....needless to say I'm looking for another house to stay in!!! 

I'm sure that place will be "nee up" as well...

----------


## dirtydog

> Why is the European colour system better?


Thats an easy one to answer, in America they use black and white cables, both black and white are not colours, in Europe we use brown, blue and green with yellow bits? These are colours  :Smile:

----------


## lom

> Thats an easy one to answer, in America they use black and white cables, both black and white are not colours


They are races aren't they? 
And the white has all the power while the black has zero.

----------


## Humbert

Make sure your electrician isn't colour blind.

----------


## WhiteLotusLane

> They are races aren't they? 
> And the white has all the power while the black has zero.

See, that's counter-intuitive.   In Europe, my electrical installations teacher explained it to me why the live one is brown.   He started by asking if anyone knew why Negroes have brown skin...  well that's because they touched the live wire, which is therefore colored brown.   

That raised a few eyebrows, but nobody in that class ever forgot, especially not the black guys in that class.  :Wink:

----------


## DrAndy

> > They are races aren't they? 
> > And the white has all the power while the black has zero.
> 
> See, that's counter-intuitive. In Europe, my electrical installations teacher explained it to me why the live one is brown. He started by asking if anyone knew why Negroes have brown skin... well that's because they touched the live wire, which is therefore colored brown. 
> 
> That raised a few eyebrows, but nobody in that class ever forgot, especially not the black guys in that class.


 
were they waiting outside later?

----------


## dirtydog

Its probably a good learning technique, bit like b*l*ue to the *left* and b*r*own to the *right* on plugs.

----------


## mikehunt

> _The worst thing about Thailand is that it has a horrible mixture of the European system & the American system. Essentially, Thailand uses the European system of electricity. Unfortunately, it also uses the awful American colour code, which exists in only a few countries._
> 
> You obviously have a lot of expertise in this area. Why is the European colour system better?


I don't have a lot of expertise...I have a huge amount of expertise!!!

It is not about one system being better than the other. It more about which system is more predominant than the other. Also, it is about mixing certain power distribution systems with the Thai system (the Thai system is predominately European & not American). 
Everyday, more & more products are imported to this country. This country has no official "electrical import" standard. The internet is the enemy here.
Each item that is NOT manufactured in the USA, may have IEC colours as the active, neutral & earth. Mind you, the USA has adapted to European standards a long time ago.
IEC colours as follows;

1] Protective earth - Green/yellow
2] Equipotential bonding - Green/yellow
3] Neutral - Black or light blue
4] Active - Any colour other than green, yellow,
green/yellow, black or light blue

Please be aware that the USA is not the "be all" & "end all" of everything. In this case, it is the minority. The NEC (National Electrical Code) is testimony to this. It won't be long before the USA must change to Metric as well as adopt a "universal" way of thinking, which includes the electrical world.

----------


## baldrick

> Please be aware that the USA is not the "be all" & "end all" of everything. In this case, it is the minority. The NEC (National Electrical Code) is testimony to this. It won't be long before the USA must change to Metric as well as adopt a "universal" way of thinking, which includes the electrical world.


I know he has flounced - but I only just read this

I wonder if his sweeping statement has taken into account the way the Chinese do their electrical ?
has he with his "huge" amount of experience encountered Chinese electrical installations ?

----------


## dirtydog

I had to do some plumbing work today, one of the jobs was sorting out a water heater, had a quick look at it and there was nothing wrong with it visually so I took it down to the shop to be repaired, turns out one of the circuit boards and the water sensor needed replacing.

So I take it back to the house to refit it, this is a nice water heater by the way, big old 6kw jobby with a nice big red wire, nice big blue wire and a nice big green and yellow wire, go into the bathroom and there is only 2 wires  :Sad:  a blue one and a black one  :Sad:  now logic would dictate that the blue is nuetral and they need to be connected, I was a bit shocked to find it was live, seems Thai logic is slightly different to normal logic, so I had a look in the circuit breaker unit, they had breakers in there with red, white, black and blue wires spurring off of them, the nuetral bar was just as colorful, turns out my wire starts off white coming out the breaker and is then joined to a blue bit of wire for the run, probably best to turn down any electrical jobs on this building  :Sad:

----------


## nikitatolstoy

Nice post with wonderful product description. But I can't trust on these because I am afraid of electric shocks. Thanks for sharing with us.

----------


## DrAndy

yeah, DD knows which side his bread is buttered

the yellow side

----------


## Happy Dave

> Here's my instantaneous hot water heater. It's a Mazuma MIS-45 (4.5kW). The web address is »ÃÐÇÑµÔ¤ÇÒÁà»ç¹ÁÒ¢Í§ºÃÔÉÑ· MAZUMA
> 
> The first 2 pics are of my water heater.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The below pic is about the "ELCB".
> ...


My heater is a RINNAI......... Japan and has a button which says ELCB test.  What does this mean, what if i press the button ?...........Hell, scared now, think i will have to wash in the toilet bowl .

----------


## Thetyim

> what if i press the button ?


It will trip the cut-out and stop power to the shower unit.

You can reset it by pushing the knob back in again.

----------


## BKKdreaming

How can I check if what I am grounding to is actually a good ground ?

and why is it bad to have multiple grounding points ?

When I was in Guatemala they sold shower heads that heated the water, these were made in Brazil and were very popular since they only cost $10 US in the local Home Pro type shop,
like this one on ebay
Electric 220V Tankless Water Heater SHOWER HEAD 10105P1 - eBay (item 300456907558 end time Aug-22-10 18 :12: 11 PDT)

I bought a 110v one to use here in the USA and want to install it out by the pool,

thanks for your help

BK

----------


## Nostradamus

I am going to fit a proper 'rain' shower in the bathroom.

What I need to know is will it require an electric pump and how do I get both the hot and cold water to the taps? 

I have no knowledge about this kind of stuff. Water pressure in the bathroom is pretty decent, but I am not sure that is enough. I would also like the system to run to the kitchen sink, just a few feet away.

Advice?

----------


## terry57

> How can I check if what I am grounding to is actually a good ground ?


In Aus one can buy a testing light that shins bright when the earth is correct and strongly earthed.  I've had one for years.

If I was you I would hunt out a reliable electrician to test your gear specially if you know shite about electrics.

----------


## terry57

> I am going to fit a proper 'rain' shower in the bathroom.
> 
> What I need to know is will it require an electric pump and how do I get both the hot and cold water to the taps? 
> 
> Water pressure in the bathroom is pretty decent, but I am not sure that is enough. I would also like the system to run to the kitchen sink, just a few feet away.
> 
> Advice?


If you have decent water pressure just connect it up and check it out. If there's not enough pressure you will need to get a plumber to add an electric booster pump fitted to a pressure switch, then a spark to wire it.

No big deal in Thailand as things are piss cheap, the trouble being getting someone you can rely on to do a proper job.

As far your taps you will need to fit a mixer as its know in the trade, the plumber just reroutes the pipes into the mixer ( Tap ) Piece of piss.

Maybe not a piece of piss, will more than likely have to cut your wall to make hot and cold water meet the mixer.

----------


## Nostradamus

Cheers Tel. So a mixer is needed. The wall is likely being rebuilt anyway so not an issue. I want to get the proper equipment installed while the walls are getting built so there's no mucking about afterwards.

----------


## Nostradamus

Got a Fagor multi-point water heater and an electric booster pump plus mixer taps which I reckon will do the job and on the advice of the people in the store can send hot water to the shower and the sinks. Maximum three outlets/points. 

Unfortunately our electrician says "it will be too hot" and reckons it isn't good for the shower which I say is bollocks.

I may need to jettison this spark and find another that knows his stuff when it comes to fitting and plumbing these systems.

----------


## DrAndy

> Unfortunately our electrician says "it will be too hot" and reckons it isn't good for the shower which I say is bollocks.


judging by the amount of water going through a shower rainhead, it will not be hot enough on cold evenings

no problem anyway, if you have a mixer just adjust it

----------


## Nostradamus

The problem appears to be he just doesn't know how to install it. I have drawn a diagram, but he is still not confident...

----------


## lom

> Unfortunately our electrician says "it will be too hot" and reckons it isn't good for the shower which I say is bollocks.


He may be thinking of too hot for standard pvc piping, in which case he is right.
Otherwise I wouldn't bother too much when a Thai says "too hot", they are used to cold water and anything warmer is "too hot".

You ought to get a plumber for doing the piping, the sparkys job is only to connect a few wires and a sparky is usually not familiar with hot water plumbing.
Speak to the aircon installer/serviceman, he usually does hot water plumbing as well.

----------


## DrAndy

I suppose you should not use the blue pipe for hot water, although I have used it for years in some places without problem

it all depends on how hot the water gets

----------


## Nostradamus

> Speak to the aircon installer/serviceman, he usually does hot water plumbing as well.


Thanks for the advice. Our spark is an air-con serviceman!

He specifically meant the water in the shower would be too hot. I have explained to him that there should be an ajustable valve both in the cold water inlet to the heater ( a tap is fine) and also there is one in the mixer tap itself (aside from the taps which can alter the heat) so the flow of the hot water can be adjusted to suit.

The excuses are now that he doesn't know how to plumb it so we have contacted another guy who does these types of installations. Fingers crossed. No problem to use copper piping at extra cost. If necessary that's what we will do.

I specifically wanted a more powerful shower than the electric one we currently use with a hotter temperature. The added benefit is to have hot water in the kitchen sink for doing the dishes.

----------


## lom

> it all depends on how hot the water gets


Sure and it is not the pvc you have to worry about, it is the glued joints that goes first.

----------


## lom

> No problem to use copper piping at extra cost. If necessary that's what we will do.


That is what you shall use for hot water and that is also the reason why the aircon guy usually does these kinds of jobs.
Same copper pipes, same gas soldering method, same isolation around the pipe.

----------


## Norton

> Fagor multi-point water heater


All the Fagor water heaters I have seen have a temperature setting control. If the model you bought does then you'll want it set so when the mixer is at a half way point the water is the temp you like. 

Forget the copper pipe. Use the hot water PVC (normally yellow in Thailand). As Lom notes, it uses a different glue that doesn't break down with hot water as does cold water PVC glue.

Piping is done same as with any PVC. The most critical part of the plumbing will be in shower or tub where you have the output of the cold and hot water supply.  If the distance between cold and hot water outlets is not the same as distance between mixer hot/cold in, you will not be able to mate the mixer to the pipes.

Although there is  a "standard" suggest you pick the mixer you want and look at spec for distance between hot/cold so piping will perfectly match.

----------


## dirtydog

> Although there is a "standard" suggest you pick the mixer you want and look at spec for distance between hot/cold so piping will perfectly match.


13.5cm if I remember correctly, but always get the mixer first and mark it out on the wall.

----------


## BKKBILL

> 13.5cm if I remember correctly, but always get the mixer first and mark it out on the wall.


15cm on mine.

----------


## dirtydog

Center to center, 13.5cm.
Also the joiner is offset so can have upto around 2cm of play.

----------


## DrAndy

> Use the hot water PVC (normally yellow in Thailand).


the only yellow pipe I have seen has been electrical conduit

Is this a new product in Thailand as I have not heard of it being sold here - I used copper for my last place and it cost!!

----------


## oldgit

Where do you buy the 15mm copper pipe and fittings in Chiang Mai Dr A? brought the odd pieces and copper elbows  and compression fittings from the UK to do my shower.

----------


## SEA Traveler

> Originally Posted by Norton
> 
> Use the hot water PVC (normally yellow in Thailand).
> 
> 
> the only yellow pipe I have seen has been electrical conduit
> 
> Is this a new product in Thailand as I have not heard of it being sold here - I used copper for my last place and it cost!!


the one used in my place is "orange" and is marked on the outside of the tubing that it is for hot water use.  only somewhat flexible.

----------


## DrAndy

There are a couple of shops within the moat area, oldgit, almost opposite each other, near the moat and on the road from Chedi Luang to CM gate

they sell mainly aircon but have racks of copper pipes of all sizes and lots of fittings inside

sorry, I cannot remember exactly where they are located but ask around

when I get back I will have to remember!

----------


## oldgit

Thanks Dr A, will take a look next time we visit CNX.

----------


## Norton

> the only yellow pipe I have seen has been electrical conduit


I'm a bit color blind. Wife tells me it's more green than yellow. Buy it at Home Mart.

----------


## DrAndy

I will have alook next time in HomeMart (sure, not Globalls)

----------


## BKKBILL

> Center to center, 13.5cm.
> Also the joiner is offset so can have upto around 2cm of play.


Yep seems to be a fair amount of adjustment with 150cm the center.

----------


## Norton

> I will have alook next time in HomeMart (sure, not Globalls)


Just checked with a builder friend. He says, Home Shop not Home Mart.  Global House doesn't have. Doubt you have a Home Shop in CM only in Roiet as far as I know. Owned by the brother of Global House.

Suggest you try Home Pro in CM. Ask for PPR.

PPR Composite Pipe - 20-63, China PPR Composite Pipe Manufacturer and Supplier

----------


## DrAndy

thanks Norton, they have all sorts of shops with similar names




> Yep seems to be a fair amount of adjustment with 150cm the center.


yes, the shower fittings are usually on slightly eccentric moveable swivels, so the pipes do not have to be exactly in position

you just have to make sure they are equally moved so the tap unit is level

----------


## fremmel

I bought my PPR at a HomeMart in Udon. It doesn't use glue. There's a heater tool that heats both the inside of the fitting and the outside of the pipe until they begin to flow a little and then the pieces are just shoved together. My HomeMart has the heaters available for rent.  I used this system for the hot water when I built my house 2 years ago. I have a Grundfos pump at 50 PSI and haven't had any problems.

----------


## DrAndy

they have neat clikfit systems in the UK

haven't seen anything like it in Thaialnd

----------


## Nostradamus

We had real trouble getting someone to fit the shower, mixer tap and the water heater as no local Thais were familiar with similar systems.

Luckily we asked where we bought the bathroom tiles in Hualamphong (near the train station in Bangkok) and they knew of someone and he has done a fairly good job. 

We went for a 250w electric pump to provide the water pressure, the Fagor multi-point instantaneous water heater and a combination of Starmark, Karat and Modona for the fittings including the shower heads, stem and mixer taps. The pressure is great but when the temperature is adjusted using the taps the hot water doesn't seem to be constant. 

Overall I am fairly happy; pressure and power are fine, heat is fine but there's no consistency in the temperature when the taps are adjusted.

They also used steel pipe for the hot water, with steel fittings and the normal blue pvc for everything else.

----------


## phomsanuk

Has anyone died in the shower?

----------


## Nostradamus

This is our shower area with the rain shower. Floor tiles are going in today. We went with a slate grey colour for both the walls and the floor. The floor tiles are anti-slip and have a rough surface but will feel nice under the feet (hopefully!). They are 12"x12" by Cotto. The wall tiles are Vertigo Slate 8"x8" also by Cotto. They are being grouted tomorrow. 

Floor tiles.



Shower attachment. Rain head is Modona, stem is Star Mark and the hand attachment is Globo by Karat Faucet. 



The mixer is Modona with modern cross style taps. Valve is Star Mark.



The multi point water heater installation.



Electric pump providing the pressure.

----------


## juehoe

> The multi point water heater installation.


Is this a heater which can provide hot water for multiple showers? Can you give us more information about brand and specifications?

Many thanks in advance!

----------


## Nostradamus

^ it is a multi-point heater for up to three hot water outlets. Brand is Fagor.

They have loads of these instantaneous multi-point water heaters in HomePro and similar shops, just don't confuse them with the electric showers as they look the same.

----------


## juehoe

> ^ it is a multi-point heater for up to three hot water outlets. Brand is Fagor.
> 
> They have loads of these instantaneous multi-point water heaters in HomePro and similar shops, just don't confuse them with the electric showers as they look the same.


Thank you very much!

----------


## DrAndy

you can actually connect as many outlets as you like to those, but if you use more than one at a time you will not get very hot water

----------


## siam

Hello to you (all the experts)
For a four bathrooms with tub, what would be a better heating system.
especially  if guests decide to enjoy the bath two or three at the same time.
Thank you for your advice.

----------


## Nostradamus

^ Depends on how many hot water outlets you are planning on. You don't need hot water in bathrooms with no shower/bathtub. You can just install a normal cold water tap in bathroom sinks. 

If you have tubs in all the bathrooms as you indicate you will need a large tanked electric or gas system so you can store heated water as well as supply. It will also require a powerful electric pump so all the rooms have decent water pressure. You will also have to factor in a hot water inlet for the kitchen and anywhere else you want hot water.

You could install more than one water heater as many have a limited ability and a maximum amount of recommended outlets.

It is going to cost a lot in Thailand for this kind of installation as most Thais go for cheap fittings and cheaper electric showers even in newer houses. Proper hot water is a relatively new phenomenon here. Our bathroom renovation has run close to 70,000thb and that is just a shower, toilet and sink in a 1.5m x 4m room.

----------


## DrAndy

get a decent solar water heater and there will be no problem supplying all of them

----------


## siam

> ^ Depends on how many hot water outlets you are planning on. You don't need hot water in bathrooms with no shower/bathtub. You can just install a normal cold water tap in bathroom sinks.
> 
> If you have tubs in all the bathrooms as you indicate you will need a large tanked electric or gas system so you can store heated water as well as supply. It will also require a powerful electric pump so all the rooms have decent water pressure. You will also have to factor in a hot water inlet for the kitchen and anywhere else you want hot water.
> 
> You could install more than one water heater as many have a limited ability and a maximum amount of recommended outlets.
> 
> It is going to cost a lot in Thailand for this kind of installation as most Thais go for cheap fittings and cheaper electric showers even in newer houses. Proper hot water is a relatively new phenomenon here. Our bathroom renovation has run close to 70,000thb and that is just a shower, toilet and sink in a 1.5m x 4m room.


Thank you Khun Nostradamus for your insight, 
do you have an idea of market price for a good heater system?
I would need a good one with multi-outlet for this house with 4 Bed rooms, 
but then another building with the kitchen...! I am quiet spoiled with european way of using hot-water to clean any grease!





> get a decent solar water heater and there will be no problem supplying all of them


Thank you DrAndy, 
will a good solar system, cover and could provide adequate hot water for all I mentioned? any idea of recent pricing ? Thank you again

----------


## fridgemagnet

Can anyone tell me if electricity used in Thailand is generated with the star, or the delta system. This has vital quincequonces for safe earthing.
In my condo, it seems that all earths (such as they are) are tied down to the neutral.
We had the same system in Ireland, & I get the same problems - a voltage sits on the neutral, so my desktop computer tickles me if I touch it.
How will this effect the ELCB of my shower - there is already a voltage on the earth/neutral.
I do not use the shower, but winter approaches.

----------


## DrAndy

> Thank you DrAndy, will a good solar system, cover and could provide adequate hot water for all I mentioned? any idea of recent pricing ? Thank you again


sorry, missed this

anyway, yes, a solar system can cover any demands as they come in different sizes and can be linked

mine, which is 170l of scalding water, was about B40k plus around B10k for fitting, delivery and things
quite cheap compared to some systems out there

----------


## DrAndy

> In my condo, it seems that all earths (such as they are) are tied down to the neutral.


if not very recent, there is probably no earth system

there is a safety cut-out which is meant to save your life if anything misconnects

----------


## fridgemagnet

No safety cut-out here, and with only 2 wires going to the main switch, I'm not sure what type of device would offer good protection.

----------


## lom

> Can anyone tell me if electricity used in Thailand is generated with the star, or the delta system.


It is 3-phase Wye (Star)

----------


## EssEffBee

> Can anyone tell me if electricity used in Thailand is generated with the star, or the delta system. This has vital quincequonces for safe earthing.


Star (Wye)/Delta has little to do with safety & more to do with voltage.

See the following info: Earthing system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The info in the above link is very rough but it does provide an insight into earthing systems & the differences between them.

In Thailand, the most predominant system is IT. Some areas may be TN C+S.
I have never seen a TT system in Thailand.

The earthing system MUST be realised before any kind of protection can be appropriately used.

----------


## fridgemagnet

Thanks for the info.
I will now search to try & see what earthing system this old condo uses.

----------


## king of uranus

A Residual Current Device (RCD) might be handy there. Residual-current device - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It senses imbalance, meaning YOU are a conductor to ground -earth.

Wye or Delta makes no difference, you can ground either. In fact, the secondary side is considered a separately derived system and needs to be bonded to ground. When you derive a neutral on a Delta transformer, you pin one secondary leg to ground and squint when you throw the switch!

I was always taught that a country needs to ground everything, or nothing. I'm no engineer but I would want a GFCI on each leg, an RCD, and would want a water tight electrical compartment on my water heater. I'd run a wire to a driven rod, or metal pipe that is known to run down into the earth to derive a ground reference. 
That's just me, YMMV.

No surprise that people are dead from this. Seems all I see in Thailand is type IT but without the user-end ground. In the states we ground all metal with a grounding conductor. The neutral is called the grounded conductor.

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## lom

> In Thailand, the most predominant system is IT. Some areas may be TN C+S. I have never seen a TT system in Thailand.


Take a look again at the wiki link you provided.
An IT system has no Neutral from the transformer to the consumer!
The most common system in Thailand is the TT system.

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## EssEffBee

> Originally Posted by EssEffBee
> 
> In Thailand, the most predominant system is IT. Some areas may be TN C+S. I have never seen a TT system in Thailand.
> 
> 
> Take a look again at the wiki link you provided.
> An IT system has no Neutral from the transformer to the consumer!
> The most common system in Thailand is the TT system.


The wiki link does not expose the true extent of IT connections.
Try this link, if you are technically minded;
Earthing Systems

Page 56 is enlightening.

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## fridgemagnet

> Use the Steibel-Eltron brand - they are well-made.
> 
> .:Welcome to Stiebel Eltron :. The water heater Germans love most


  Are they completely made in Germany?

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## gammelnok

Currently we are having a house built in the north part of Thailand, near CM.

I too do not love theese heating things in the bath rooms.

Searching for alternatives bring the solar panels up. 

So far i do not manage to find prices near the range you mention, to be more
specific more than twice is quoated for a small household system with 4 outlets, all
at the same end of the house. 3 bath + kitchen on 2 stores.

Can you provide some information on companies to contact please?

Thank you.

Rasmus




> ^ I run a medium sized unit which from memory cost me 60 odd thousand baht fitted and we ran 3/4/5 bathrooms, the kitchen and laundry and never had a problem.
> 
> Always had boiling hot water and the savings re; electricity is noticeable.
> 
> I have also purchased wall mounted water heaters that cost up too and over 10,000 Baht each fitted in other houses.
> 
> On the larger house we have 5 bedrooms, 2 kitchens and large laundrey and have 2 Thai made solar units which cost 80k and have operated without problem for the last 6 years. One services upstairs and the other downstairs.
> 
> Really there is no comparison as far as I am concerned regarding intitial investment and later on return on investment as well we get hot water we could boil an egg in.

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