#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Farming & Gardening In Thailand >  >  How much land would you need to be self-sufficient for food?

## WhiteLotusLane

I googled around on this question but of course there are large differences between different places on Earth.. some places you're not doing a whole lot of agriculture between November and March for example.

So for Thailand, assuming there's plenty water available, how many rai would you need per person to grow pretty much all your food yourself?   (So including some chickens/ducks and fish, but not necessarily including larger livestock.)  In addition you'd have rice or other grains/corn and/or potatoes, fruit, a vegetable and herb garden, etc.

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## sabang

If it's got permanent water, ie two annual rice crop type country, i'd say you could do it with 25 rai- but with the small cash you extract after eating your own stuff, you'll be drinking lao khao and Archa. Insects, frogs and paddy rats will also be additions to your diet.

If you have the capital to buy a Kubota or two, and do some local ploughing and earthworks too you'll have a much better disposable income.

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## somtamslap

Not alot a should imagine..although separating the livestock from the crops could be a pain, especially the chickens. I'd say 2 rai.

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## somtamslap

> rice


 Forgot about that...yeh you'd need abit more then.

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## Norton

> how many rai would you need per person to grow pretty much all your food yourself?


Productivity/rai varies greatly depending on location but you can figure about 350kg/rai.  As I recall average rice consumption per person in Thailand about 100kg/year.  

Throw in a few fruit trees, veggies and fish ponds and I would say 2 rai could "theoretically" support a family of 3.  Life style/diet would have to be extremely local though.  Bugs, frogs, rats and the like would definitely be on the menu.

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## Happyman

Don't know about Thailand but in Tanzania our work camp - 8 expats and 12 locals was just about totally self sufficient with 9 acres (dunno the Rai conversion ) of lakeside land .
Veggies, fish , maize, goat and fruit . It was constant cropping - no specific growing season ( except for the mangos!)
Only shipped in booze,  ciggies,wheat flour for the bread, sugar and coffee. 
Basic catering but did us OK!

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## Norton

> 9 acres


23 rai.

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## Happyman

^

Thanks Mr Norts !  :Smile:

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## Thetyim

Crofters in Scotland could survive on 2 acres.
Thats about 5 rai and of course a winter which is bloody cold.

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## sabang

I'd like to see someone support a family on 5 rai or less.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 
Even the locals with smallish 15 rai farms are doing casual labouring to supplement their income.
Figure in a bit of spending cash for booze, kids education, run a car or even a motosai- nope, I think you'll need 20 rai at least or an outside source of income.

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## Jesus Jones

If it's just to supply your own food, and not for an additional income then 2 to 5 rai would be enough.  My GF and I have just done the same thing purely to grow most of our own produce.  (Veg/fruit)

Family of four, but no doubt it will get spread around.

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## Happyman

> I'd like to see someone support a family on 5 rai or less. 
> Even the locals with smallish 15 rai farms are doing casual labouring to supplement their income.
> Figure in a bit of spending cash for booze, kids education, run a car or even a motosai- nope, I think you'll need 20 rai at least or an outside source of income.


Undoubtedly right ! 
 I know less than f*ckall about subsistence farming in Thailand - our outside source was the ex-pat salaries !!!!

On the other hand  -before I retired -  I handled insurance problems for farms in the region but they were for multinational - multi sq Km palm oil, fish farms  and other plantations and your comments certainly give food for thought - Thanks

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## Norton

> how many rai would you need per person to *grow pretty much all your food yourself*?





> I'd like to see someone *support a family* on 5 rai or less.


Apples and Hondas, mate! :Wink:

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## tuktukdriver

How about the air you breathe? Takes alot of green stuff tp produce your O2. I think it takes a bit more land to sustain a human.

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## Rural Surin

I would think that every sitiation would be different and therefore the requirements {amount of rai needed} would vary. Some could be quite comfortable with a handful of rai, where others couldn't function without substantial land....

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## sabang

If you can pay cash for stuff like rice, transport, electricity and booze then yeh- you can grow quite a bit of food on even two rai, and run a few chooks and a fishpond too. We're getting that going up here actually- nothing like home grown veges.  :Smile: 

If you mean true self sufficiency- as in to trade or barter excess produce for cash and other goods you'll need a good deal more land.

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## Marmite the Dog

I wouldn't waste land growing rice or other grains. You don't need them and they are extremely inefficient crops when compared against vegetables and fruits.

I'd say you could easily survive with 2 or 3 rai as long as you have a permanent water source for watering the crops as well as fish. 

I would only have cattle for milk and my meat would come from pigs, chickens and ducks.

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## Norton

> I'd say you could easily survive with 2 or 3 rai as long as you have a permanent water source for watering the crops as well as fish.


There are several here in the village I live in who do just that.  But, the word survive should be noted.  As Sabang points out, if one needs motosi, pickups, TV and the like, farming as a profitable venture requires far more land.  Even with substantial land, farming is at best not the best way to make a living.  Buying from the farmers and reselling is far more profitable.

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## somtamslap

Any brits here remember 'The Good life"? They were self sufficient on about 50 talang wah!

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## blackgang

Just to live, you can do it on 2 or 3 rai, but it would be boring.
Got a sister in law that did just that for awhile, if she didn't grow it or catch it out of our pond they didn't eat it, but we do have a 6 or 7 rai pond.

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## Rural Surin

> If you can pay cash for stuff like rice, transport, electricity and booze then yeh- you can grow quite a bit of food on even two rai, and run a few chooks and a fishpond too. We're getting that going up here actually- nothing like home grown veges. 
> 
> If you mean true self sufficiency- as in to trade or barter excess produce for cash and other goods you'll need a good deal more land.


Could you imagine what an expanding trade/bater/co-op practice would do to the systems of suppressive control? At least such interaction is real, as opposed to the monetary system of fakery....

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## Norton

> Could you imagine what an expanding trade/bater/co-op practice would do to the systems of suppressive control?


Barter done on a small scale all over Isaan.  All in all barter for many things is a superior form of economics.  Governments don't care much for it.  No way to get their tax piece of flesh.

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## Rural Surin

> Originally Posted by Rural Surin
> 
> Could you imagine what an expanding trade/bater/co-op practice would do to the systems of suppressive control?
> 
> 
> Barter done on a small scale all over Isaan. All in all barter for many things is a superior form of economics. Governments don't care much for it. No way to get their tax piece of flesh.


Yes, yes. Very common way of doing things thoughout Isaan {and other regions}.

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## WhiteLotusLane

Thanks so far for all the replies!!  

I guess realistically it makes more sense to specialize in one or two cash crops rather than try to grow vegetables that cost about 2 baht in any market..

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## sabang

Sure. The other thing is that the price of the cash crops is so volatile year on year it's difficult to make an informed investment decision, just pot luck. Rice is paying pretty well now, but taro has gone right down, palm oil was good for a while, last thing I knew right down. Tobaccy might be OK to look in to, but you need the right land. A smart operator can run two different crops a year on the same land, but no one seems to around here. There is said to be OK opportunities in certain woods- but you have to wait a number of years for your pay off.

Personally, if I was looking at a cash in cash out business up here in Isaan I'd prolly go fish ponds- readily saleable and don't need big investment or upkeep for a basic operation. Maybe some forestry as a longer term proposition- but you have to wait for your money. And/or tobacco to round it off- but clearly we've gone beyond a few rai self-sufficiency operation.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

I don't want to sound negative, but if you're in a situation where you 'need' to make some sort of return off Thai land, keep working and saving for a few more years. You can always buy land and share farm it for a while- Somchai does the work, you split the profits, and see how it goes- you'll learn as you go along.

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## chassamui

Is there anyone on this forum who has not at least considered it. Is there anyone who has done it/is doing it?
It's a great idea and one which will gain in popularity. Reduce our needs to the simplest form and make more happy people.
Pity is that greed and avarice still abound, so if you succeed, (and i hope you do), someone will be jealous enough to want to take it from you.
I think sabang is probably closest to reality. You will still ahve to live half in the real world whatever you do.
Bon chance

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## sabang

^ Well I'm going along that route, but as an amateur hobby really. We've got a smallish plot of cleared land, around 1,5 rai, which was put to taro last season- the payoff was abysmal, so we might as well have some fun with it, grow a few veggies & fruits and I also will run some chooks- not those rangy bush chickens, but decent plump ones. We've dug out a fish pond too.

At the end of the day, we'll just see what takes. Some things you can just stick in the ground and leave- unsurprisingly they are the cheapest at the markets too. Some things I'm gonna try as a 'folly'- a couple of types of tomato and a few avocado trees, some oregano & Italian basil. I will take great pleasure in depriving the government of tax revenue by growing some baccy.

It's nice to grow your own stuff, and barter a bit locally. Family will no doubt come and plunder some- I don't mind as long as we get first pickings. But just to put it in perspective, we've also got 12 rai which is forested. We're not going to clear it, and the locals are free to forage there- we like it as is.

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## chassamui

I have followed your thread on build for dummys and thats what gave me confidence in your suggestions.
The tobacco bit is interesting. Do you have to have drying and rolling, cutting facilities or is it more primitive than that?
Tomatoes are great because you can do stuff with them if you have too much or they are the wrong shape or colour for market.
Would grapes, (wine/brandy) work out here?
I like the idae of keeping the woodland. Plenty of scope for mushrooms and herbs/other herbal/medicinal stuff. (Legal of course). :Smile:  It's also ideal for keeping pigs and they maintain the woodland for you.

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## sabang

^ They're growing grapes in Rayong of all places, which seems totally the wrong climate to me, and The Silverlake Winery & vineyards is not a small operation either- so I assume they've done their homework. There are other wineries in Thailand, but in elevated country like Loei, inland from Hua Hin & around Khao Yai. You've got to pick a forgiving variety- Shiraz seems the main grape grown, and it can make a great wine too. Might even give it a shot. Grapes don't like 'wet feet'- the soil has to be decently drained, so you might want to raise furrows. Mildly sloping land is ideal, apart from that they can get by with pretty much any soil, except heavy clay. Grape mould during rainy season might possibly be an issue.




> Do you have to have drying and rolling, cutting facilities or is it more primitive than that?


You've certainly got to dry it, but I think thats all they do around here. It's a dry season only crop. I'm happy to admit I'm flying by the seat of my pants- I'll just get advice from a local lad who grows his own when he next comes by to drink some lao khao.




> It's also ideal for keeping pigs and they maintain the woodland for you.


Pigs are a great 'sufficiency' resource if you've got a bit of land, problem is if we let them rut around in the forest the same locals that help themselves to whatever they can forage there will help themselves to our porkers! So that won't fly.  :Sad:

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## BugginOut

Growing rice is labor intensive. Would you be planting it? And replanting it? And harvesting it? And drying it? And de-hulling it?  How will you store it to keep pests and vermin out? How many people are you planning to work this parcel? How much seed will you need? How much fertilizer? Pesticide to keep the insects away? Are you planning on keeping a buffalo to pull a plow or is a Kubota in the plans? What will you feed the Kubota? How much in fuel costs for the buffalo? Are you planning to have a Little House on the Prairie? Kids working the farm? Weaving your own clothes?

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## Nawty

We have 7 rai on the river, water all year. it is plenty big enough to put everything on you require and live off. But it has to be doen with care and planning.

Thais are not the ones to rely on for care and planning.

It can be done, but it is a difficult slog.

The main reason for me to attempt it is the supply of food that is fresh and free of toxins for me and my children and we know where it is coming from and what has been put into it. Not to sell any of it for cash, but the possibility to trade some itmes for others that we do not or cannot grow etc.

it is a hard slog

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## Rural Surin

> ^ Well I'm going along that route, but as an amateur hobby really. We've got a smallish plot of cleared land, around 1,5 rai, which was put to taro last season- the payoff was abysmal, so we might as well have some fun with it, grow a few veggies & fruits and I also will run some chooks- not those rangy bush chickens, but decent plump ones. We've dug out a fish pond too.
> 
> At the end of the day, we'll just see what takes. Some things you can just stick in the ground and leave- unsurprisingly they are the cheapest at the markets too. Some things I'm gonna try as a 'folly'- a couple of types of tomato and a few avocado trees, some oregano & Italian basil. I will take great pleasure in depriving the government of tax revenue by growing some baccy.
> 
> It's nice to grow your own stuff, and barter a bit locally. Family will no doubt come and plunder some- I don't mind as long as we get first pickings. But just to put it in perspective, we've also got 12 rai which is forested. We're not going to clear it, and the locals are free to forage there- we like it as is.


We need to get together some day Sabang - you should see what we're doing. :Smile:

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## killerbees

^Why not post some pictures and/or info? Sorry, maybe you have and I missed it.

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## Smithson

If you only want to feed a few ppl, then a few rai is all that's needed. The best way is thru agro forestry or 'forest gardening'. This is the easiest way and gives a good variety of foods. 

If you want to eat pork and beef, it'll mean a heap more land and work than if your happy with fish and vegies. Chickens don't require that much input, but fish are still way ahead.

I'm not very impressed with Thai tradional organic farming, they rarely use mulch, don't compost and dig around at the base of trees destroying all the fine roots.

Permaculture is a scientific approach to organic gardening and is worth reading up on.

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## chassamui

> Pigs are a great 'sufficiency' resource if you've got a bit of land, problem is if we let them rut around in the forest the same locals that help themselves to whatever they can forage there will help themselves to our porkers! So that won't fly.


Thanks for such a detailed response Sabang. I think i need a little more experience and practical research before jumping in the deep end. Good luck with all your ongoing projects.

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## good2bhappy

I reckon you need a few if you want a few animals, fish(water), rice, fruit trees and some barter/marketable crops for power and fuel.
25 would be ok with me
by the way isn't there another thread where people posted some figures

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## Wayne Kerr

> The main reason for me to attempt it is the supply of food that is fresh and free of toxins for me and my children and we know where it is coming from and what has been put into it. Not to sell any of it for cash, but the possibility to trade some itmes for others that we do not or cannot grow etc.  it is a hard slog


Sounds great mate. I would love to give that a go one day.

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## Smithson

> I reckon you need a few if you want a few animals, fish(water), rice, fruit trees and some barter/marketable crops for power and fuel.
> 25 would be ok with me
> by the way isn't there another thread where people posted some figures


If you put in the work I reckon a family of four could get by with 2 rai to be self sufficient if veggies. 

The thing is if you want to grow organically the fertilizers (manures etc.) are quite expensive, so you need good management to ensure your not buying too much.

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## WhiteLotusLane

> I have followed your thread on build for dummys and Tomatoes are great because you can do stuff with them if you have too much or they are the wrong shape or colour for market.


Tomato are pest-prone and really low value.   Peppers of various kinds would already be better.   I've been trying some weird ones you don't see a lot but with limited success (hot season killed most of my test plants, I'll avoid that going forward..  :Smile:   Too bad though, had interesting ones like chocolate habeneros. 




> Would grapes, (wine/brandy) work out here?


I think the short answer to that is 'no'.  The long answer is that people with loads of time and bigger loads of money are doing it, but I doubt it makes sense other than as an expensive extended hobby.  On the bright side though, you could make wine and brandy out of anything sweet... Think Lychee, mangosteen, etc.  The legal aspects of that would make it less feasible other than as a hobby of course.

Same applies to marijuana.. Now there's something easy to grow.  :Wink:

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## WhiteLotusLane

> Growing rice is labor intensive. Would you be planting it? And replanting it? And harvesting it? And drying it? And de-hulling it?  How will you store it to keep pests and vermin out? How many people are you planning to work this parcel? How much seed will you need? How much fertilizer? Pesticide to keep the insects away? Are you planning on keeping a buffalo to pull a plow or is a Kubota in the plans? What will you feed the Kubota? How much in fuel costs for the buffalo? Are you planning to have a Little House on the Prairie? Kids working the farm? Weaving your own clothes?


Good questions.. I kind of like the idea of having a rice paddy but it be more for aesthetics & hobby than anything else. The land has a slight slope to it, I could probably do 2-3 small terraces with water ending up in a fish pond..

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## mtone9317

How much land you need depends on your expertise at growing food. One year on 1/2 here in Nor. Cal I grew almost all my own food. Don't drink booze, smoke, Meat was chiken, pork,and fish (on trade from trout farm) for my vegs. Main cost was transport: pick up truck, gas and insurance. I make my own compost. The soil here is volcanic, very rich and the oak tree leaves have calcium needed to break up the clay base. Organic farm the John Jeavons method.

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## xpat

The King is/was trying to promote a program where a [Thai] family could be self sufficient on 7 rai......1/3 for rice, 1/3 for fruit trees and veges, and remaining 1/3 for lake/fishpond/resivoir.  Housing fits in there somewhere.  I think it is doable especially if you grow unnusual and hard to get produce and can find a market.

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## Rigger

> Is there anyone on this forum who has not at least considered it. Is there anyone who has done it/is doing it?


The wife has 7 ria that the MIL and FIL farm, Half is rice with a couple of dams for fish, goverment just gave us 2000 cat fish for free but normaly put 5000 in at a time. There is also Bananas/Mangos/peanuts/cucumber/water mellon/chillies/corn
Not self-sufficient but worth doing for fresh food

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## Dan

If you look at :: Path to Feedom :: The Urban Homestead you'll see what can be done on a limited plot:




> Their homestead supports four adults, who live and work full time on a 66 x 132 city lot (1/5 acre).    The homestead's productive garden now grows over 6,000 lbs of organic produce annually. The yard has over 350 varieties of edible and useful plants. The homestead's productive 1/10 acre organic garden now grows over 6,000 pounds (3 tons) of produce annually. This provides fresh vegetables and fruit for the familys vegetarian diet and a source of income.

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## sabang

> goverment just gave us 2000 cat fish for free


Now thats a good deal  :Smile: 
Any idea how to get on to this Rigger- we're establishing a fish pond ourselves.

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## Norton

> One year on 1/2 here in Nor. Cal I grew almost all my own food.


Northern CA is very fertile.  Can grow just about anything.

Did you grow any herbs. :Smile:

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## Katana

I think I could get away with 5m x 10m ... should be able to grow a 7-11 on that :0

Mark :smiley laughing:

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## Rigger

> Now thats a good deal Any idea how to get on to this Rigger- we're establishing a fish pond ourselves.


You will need to go and see your local Obitor or Pooyaiban, in years passed we have also had some free fish food

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## Norton

> Any idea how to get on to this Rigger


Contact your local Thai Department of Fisheries (don't know Thai name).  Should be one nearby.

They have been doing this for some time under Village Fishpond Development Program.

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## Norton

> You will need to go and see your local Obitor or Pooyaiban


Even better than going directly to Fisheries if the Pooyaiban can be trusted.  It is the Pooyaiban's responsibility to coordinate with Fisheries.

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## Rigger

> Even better than going directly to Fisheries if the Pooyaiban can be trusted.


Yeh i would say alot of the stuff goes to the wrong people or sold off

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## sabang

I'll follow up on this. Cheers guys.

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## Smithson

If your not to fussy I think it's pretty easy, my missus can find all sorts of stuff growing wild on our block that can be eaten - such as a variety of Pak Boong that grows as a ground cover. We've also got a small pond, with surprisingly large fish.

A lot of veggies require work and are suscecptible to insects and diseases. Pumpkins are easy and a lot of Asian veggies are pretty resilient. Papayas are also great because they don't have to be ripe to eat and will fruit year round. You should also share with neighbours, for example you'd be unlikely to eat a whole bunch of bananas, so give some away and your neighbors will likely return the favor.

Bamboo shoots are edible, large ones are a couple of kilos each. The bamboo poles have heaps of uses on a farm - everything from fencing/trellising to tool handles.

To do things organically, you could find yourself spending quite a bit on manures. Cow manure is expensive, chook poo is cheaper, transporting it is another cost. 

Nitrogen (legumes) fixing plants and trees take nitrogen from the air, as well as being edible, they can be used as mulch, composted or added to the soil. When you cut them back the roots die off a little, further releasing nitrogen.

It's a good idea to try and return everything to the soil to 'close the loop'. A composting toilet is a good idea. The simplest ones use worms.  To play it safe, the finished 'product' is best used on trees rather than vegies.

In NZ officials were concerned that worms would be traumatised by the experience of eating shit, so the inventor had to consult a worm export. The full stories here

For meat, the best return for input is fish, chickens comes second but are a long way off.

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## Rigger

> Cow manure is expensive


Not in our village  :Smile:

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## Panda

> I'd like to see someone support a family on 5 rai or less. 
> Even the locals with smallish 15 rai farms are doing casual labouring to supplement their income.
> Figure in a bit of spending cash for booze, kids education, run a car or even a motosai- nope, I think you'll need 20 rai at least or an outside source of income.


Do a google on "Permaculture".

2.5 rai or one acre in western terms should be plenty if the ground is fertile and freshwater is plentiful.

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## Panda

> The King is/was trying to promote a program where a [Thai] family could be self sufficient on 7 rai......1/3 for rice, 1/3 for fruit trees and veges, and remaining 1/3 for lake/fishpond/resivoir. Housing fits in there somewhere. I think it is doable especially if you grow unnusual and hard to get produce and can find a market.


Trouble is that most of the land up in Issarn is infertile and subject to drought and flood. Problems with ground water salinity too. Keep em poor and begging.

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## Smithson

> Originally Posted by Smithson
> 
> Cow manure is expensive
> 
> 
> Not in our village


It all depends, but compared to chem fertilizers it's expensive. The nutrient content in cow manure is low.




> Quote:
>  					Originally Posted by *sabang*  (How much land would you need to be self-sufficient for food?) 
> _I'd like to see someone support a family on 5 rai or less. 
> Even the locals with smallish 15 rai farms are doing casual labouring to supplement their income.
> Figure in a bit of spending cash for booze, kids education, run a car or even a motosai- nope, I think you'll need 20 rai at least or an outside source of income._


If you thinking of generating income, then it's very hard, but providing enough to eat is a different matter.




> Do a google on "Permaculture".
> 
> 2.5 rai or one acre in western terms should be plenty if the ground is fertile and freshwater is plentiful.


 

Good advice, the permaculture system of forest gardening is pretty simple, very productive and doesn't require much labor.




> Trouble is that most of the land up in Issarn is infertile and subject to drought and flood. Problems with ground water salinity too.


This is due to using too much chems, deforestation and burning rather than mulching/composting. The traditional Thai organic methods aren't much good either. Notice the way they sweep the ground till it's bare and rock hard? Then the burn all the leaves - crazy.

Permaculture is a scientific approach to organic farming, definetely the way to go.

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## stutter

Im in the process of trying to be self sufficient. I have been on my farm in Nakhon Si Thammarat now for 2 months and have planted heaps of vegetables and 2 rai of rice.
I have 7 rai all up with about 4 Rai being taken up mainly with palm trees (sell the oil), with water trences / fish farms between the rows. I just added 3000 fish to them.
I also have chickens that are doing nicely...
Im hoping that I can live (me and the wife) off of 7 Rai. It look doable at the moment.. Im counting the monthly money from the palm oil also in that.. They are only 3 years old at the moment, so they are only producing about 2000 baht a month now..
anyway.. hope this is some insight into farming... Best thing I ever did was leave major cities (Phuket and Bangkok) and after 13 years here, Im the happiest I have ever been.

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## Nawty

Nice innit....after 6 years in Bkk and back into the mountains and we love it.

We have 7 rai of fruit and vegeis, but fruit is long way off of producing any real results.

Vegies are another thing, we are having good and bad experiences with it.

We also have 8 rai of rice, so self sufficient in rice at least.

We have chickens, letting them hatch for now to raise chooks to eat and then collect enough egss each day. Water we are on the river, so no problem.

Biggest problem is getting the shit to grow properly, not a green thumb me have.

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## Norton

> Nice innit....after 6 years in Bkk and back into the mountains and we love it.


Ditto except much longer in Bangers and Phuket.

Something very fulfilling in working the earth.  Not for everyone though.

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## DrAndy

never mind the economics, it is a great feeling to eat a nice meal all from your own land and labour

The rice tastes better, as does the fish, tomatoes, herbs, rats, snakes, chicken eggs, fruits etc etc

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## Rural Surin

> never mind the economics, it is a great feeling to eat a nice meal all from your own land and labour
> 
> The rice tastes better, as does the fish, tomatoes, herbs, rats, snakes, chicken eggs, fruits etc etc


Spot on Andy. And one can't trade this sense of independent spirit for...

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## Texpat

Interesting thread.
Cheers, WLL.

We have almost 100 fruit trees and a vegetable patch. Never sell anything. I want to get some chickens but wifey ain't keen on that. Might get a few pigs instead. That'll teach her.

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## DrAndy

> Might get a few pigs instead. That'll teach her.


bring one over when it is about a year old and FF can BBQ it

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## sabang

> I have 7 rai all up with about 4 Rai being taken up mainly with palm trees (sell the oil), with water trences / fish farms between the rows. I just added 3000 fish to them.


Best of luck with it stutter- I  hope you keep us updated with your progress.

Do you think you can achieve total sufficiency with 7 rai- ie generate enough cash for bills, car etc- or partial?

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## Smithson

> never mind the economics, it is a great feeling to eat a nice meal all from your own land and labour
> 
> The rice tastes better, as does the fish, tomatoes, herbs, rats, snakes, chicken eggs, fruits etc etc


Besides the taste, it's also better for you because food starts to loose vitamins as soon as it's harvested.

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## THORZEN

> We have 7 rai on the river, water all year. it is plenty big enough to put everything on you require and live off. But it has to be doen with care and planning.
> 
> Thais are not the ones to rely on for care and planning.
> 
> It can be done, but it is a difficult slog.
> 
> The main reason for me to attempt it is the supply of food that is fresh and free of toxins for me and my children and we know where it is coming from and what has been put into it. Not to sell any of it for cash, but the possibility to trade some itmes for others that we do not or cannot grow etc.
> 
> it is a hard slog


If it would help: we are a group of retired people who have looked for an easier way to live off our land, with returns for an easier life in the long run. We have a nursery and farm growing "Tung Trees". The tung, will take 3 years to bear flowers & Fruits, which is shorter than rubber, and it is an easier plant than many others, as it only needs natural fertilizer, i.e. cow dun, etc. Once their roots are firmly planted, they would only need water about twice a week. They can be left along if planted along the paddy feilds, as the roots will find their own way to water. But they do not like to have their roots constantly soaked in water! The Tung would grow to the height of +20 m and would outlive all of us, as their lifespan is +150 years. They would be able to produce up to 150-200 kgs of fruits by the 5th year. We have started this project because we feel that it is time for us to give back to the community/society and try ot do our part for our children, before there is no place left on earth for all of us due to the Global Warming and Climate Change situation that is so worrisome now. 

We would like to invite all of you who have some un-use land to join us in our quest and grow as many trees as possible. It need not be the Tung, but anything that will help to make the earth a better place for us to live in. We are of the opinion that we should invest into something that will bring us some return, so that we cna live off the income in our old age. We are working on our project on our own with +50 rai now, with the little budget we have, we have tested and built our oil extraction machine and is ready to do some selling. 

If you would do some research on google, you will find that "Tung Oil" is a sort-after product in the US. We have received enquiries for our oil in bulk, but as we have just started our project last year, we can only supply by 2011. To sell and export in big quantity, we would need thousands or Rai and a lot more people to help grow this plant, we will buy back the seeds from you, as we already have our extraction machines and would be building a warehouse to produce and store both the seeds and the oil, which are in our plans. 

So, should there be anyone who would like to join us in our project, you all are most welcome.

Cheers!

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## Panda

^ Doesn't sound terribly well suited to the wet/dry, drought/flood  seasons in Issarn.

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## THORZEN

> ^ Doesn't sound terribly well suited to the wet/dry, drought/flood seasons in Issarn.


The plant does ok as it is able to adapt to the enviroment it is planted in. We have many groups already planted in Nakorn Panom, Nong Khai, Khon Kaen, Korat, Kalasin, even Nakorn Nayok and Kanchanaburi. We would like to encourage some people start growin in more areas to see how the plant would fair. In the US, they can grow in Florida. In Asia, they grow in Indonesia, but not in great volume, so they are not able to do much. As we only started this project late last year and the plant will only bear flowers and fruits by their 3rd year, I am not able to let you how well it will do until next year.

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## WhiteLotusLane

> Interesting thread.
> Cheers, WLL.
> 
> We have almost 100 fruit trees and a vegetable patch. Never sell anything. I want to get some chickens but wifey ain't keen on that. Might get a few pigs instead. That'll teach her.


The pigs will LOVE the vegetable patch.  :Smile:    I kind of liked the idea of a couple free-range mountain pigs (those beasts they have in hill villages), but they'd need to be in a pen of some sort or they'll tear everything apart.

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## MustavaMond

> Originally Posted by sabang
> 
> 
> I'd like to see someone support a family on 5 rai or less. 
> Even the locals with smallish 15 rai farms are doing casual labouring to supplement their income.
> Figure in a bit of spending cash for booze, kids education, run a car or even a motosai- nope, I think you'll need 20 rai at least or an outside source of income.
> 
> 
> Do a google on "Permaculture".
> ...



 If land is cheap, why not have a couple of acres  ( 5-6 rai ) for  a few cows to graze, providing  milk and manure.
 If European  breed in tropics , might need calcium supplements,  ground up chicken egg shells provide  calcium but must make sure magnesium, phosphorous are in right proportion. Are there  tropical bred  dairy cows? 
Maybe goats would be better..


  Things can get complicated, but self sustaining has an appeal, those who are doing it now, learning to  get set up-  might be the only ones around not starving  but surviving in the not to distant future.

 A farm near enough to the sea  to harvest fish would be ideal ( assuming the  oceans survive the carnage I feel sure is approaching critical no turn back levels  ..)
Ok so a pond is better.

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## MustavaMond

> Nice innit....after 6 years in Bkk and back into the mountains and we love it.
> 
> We have 7 rai of fruit and vegeis, but fruit is long way off of producing any real results.
> 
> Vegies are another thing, we are having good and bad experiences with it.
> 
> We also have 8 rai of rice, so self sufficient in rice at least.
> 
> We have chickens, letting them hatch for now to raise chooks to eat and then collect enough egss each day. Water we are on the river, so no problem.
> ...


 Yes now you have water, but  China puts in polluting factory upstream,  Viet Nam or Burma  build a dam or Thailand adds another  filthy factory...

Capturing rainwater should  be a priority for true sustainability,  how to compensate for  increasing acidity, I wonder

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## Marmite the Dog

> how to compensate for increasing acidity, I wonder


A handful of lime?

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## Nawty

I piss on my loime tree every morning....

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## THORZEN

so how is it doing?

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## Nawty

Very well....I only pee on the runt of the little and it has since caught up to the others and is producing 1 single lime.....just the one.......wonder how it will taste

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## somtamslap

Put my lime trees in a few weeks ago, and they are KICKING ARSE, got dozens of small limes on each and the actual trees are growing rapidly. Haven't watered them once since I put them in, but I cunningly entwined the planting with the rainy season..long may it continue. 
Planted the the trees in a red clayie soil I was talking about, so they're retaianing the moisture quite nicely. All the other trees on the plot are doing nicely too apart from one of trhe guavas which is looking a bit sorry for itself. 
Gonna stick in 100 dragon fruit over the next few months..reliable as anything around here.

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## Nawty

Damn.....my lime trees are still small and no fruit yet.....apart from the one I piss on

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## johpam

Nawty, you better drink more liquids or get your family involved so they can do somemore "sprinkling" :Smile:  :Smile:

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## THORZEN

We planted young 50 lime stocks ( can't call them trees as they are only knee high) on our farm with red clay soil sokme 2 months back. Would like to compare and see if the ones planted by somtamslap would do better than ours up in Nakorn Panom. We have a mixture of different plants on our farm, hoping that we won't have to go to the nearby market everyday.

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## somtamslap

> Would like to compare and see if the ones planted by somtamslap would do better than ours up in Nakorn Panom.


I'll take some pics over the weekend, don't tend to get down to the land much during the week. I've really done nothing to them at all apart from dig very wide and deep holes for them and added some fertiliser..the rain is doing the rest.

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## THORZEN

Will be looking forward to see how your crops do as our entire farm sits on red clay, but we would like to grow our own vegetables and other fruits so that we won't need to buy everything. Mangos do well as there were about 20 trees left over by the previous owner and they produced so much mangos a few months back, we gave them away to all our neighbours.

We planted limes, coconuts, passion fruits, lemon grass and other thai herbs 2 months ago. Thought everything sould do better if planted during the rainy season, so that we won't have to water them so much, the rain will take care of that.

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