#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Doing Things Legally >  >  3+3 lease

## yankee99

I am considering purchasing  a established business here in thailand. The business property is not freehold. My understanding is landlords use a 3 year term to avoid registration with the land office. 

My questions are how strong are these leases?

Are the terms for years 4-6 usually pre-argreed?

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## Prem

Leases without registration at the landoffice are officiall not valid.

My experience is that Thai landlords prefer 1-2 yr leases.
-After 1-2 year the landlord can increase the leaseprice big time.

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## Prem

When your landlord regiser at the landoffice, tax have to be paid.
Yearly +/- 2x the montly rent, by he landlord,he will pass that on to you for sure.

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## chingching

if the business becomes a success he will raise then rent and hijack the business and squeeze you out

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## yankee99

> if the business becomes a success he will raise then rent and hijack the business and squeeze you out


Thank you but i dont really need conjecture.

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## nedwalk

you asked for input..you have recieved it...conjecture or otherwise, heed the words, good luck

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## rickschoppers

Not conjecture, but true possibility that will likely happen. You say you want to buy a business in Thailand? How long have you lived in Thailand and how much do you know about owning a business?

Personally, I would never own a business in Thailand. Having owned three in the US, it has always been a temptation but the odds are definately not with you. If you are successful, like already stated, you will be run out one way or another. Either the BIB will ask for lots of money, the locals will start exactly the same business right next to you or your landlord will jack prices to the point of not allowing you to make a profit. 

You have to be Chinese to have a successful business in Thailand. Not conhecture, but fact.

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## Lorenzo

> Originally Posted by chingching
> 
> 
> if the business becomes a success he will raise then rent and hijack the business and squeeze you out
> 
> 
> Thank you but i dont really need conjecture.


Only a Douchbag would purchase such a business.

The only question is, are you that Douchbag?

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## Tom Sawyer

> Originally Posted by chingching
> 
> 
> if the business becomes a success he will raise then rent and hijack the business and squeeze you out
> 
> 
> Thank you but i dont really need conjecture.


You were asking for advice and you're getting the real deal. If you want to feel good about yourself and doing business in Thailand I suggest you go to ThaiVisa dot com where you'll get nothing but cheerleader replies.

What you've been told above is not conjecture but pure fact. Are you aware of business ownership laws regarding foreigners? The lease is the least of your concerns.

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## liveinlos

Always those that think they know it all and end up flat on their arse. 

Anyone with any sense at all knows if a business is making money, it is never, never, never sold in Thailand. 

But always those foolish enough to buy businesses with grandiose ideas of earning a huge income to live in Thailand. 

This is as far from the truth as it gets. 

When they see you as a foreigner owner of the business, the Thai's will open up the same exact business right across the street and charge 1/2 as much. 

There is more to business in Thailand than any sane person can reasonable understand.

1. There has to be a need that Thai people can afford
2. There has to be a service NO ONE else can provide

# 1 the big problem is the profit margin earned from things Thai people can afford, you would realistically have to have 1,000+ customers a day to make enough money for a westerner to live on

Tourist related business ideas, well we all see what is happening to the Russian owned businesses now in Phuket? 

Bet they never ever planned for the Thai people uprising and wanting to kick the foreigners out of Thailand, but that is exactly what happened and now the businesses are all closed.

If you think anyone will be happy if you start making money, you haven't been in Thailand long enough

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## Tom Sawyer

Most can't seem to do simple math(s). 

Rent + utilities + any staff costs = break even 
(this is simple and of course there are more costs than this - but for sake of argument let's say just this) 

Let's say you open a stall to sell T-shirts and your 'tilac' will sit there all day trying to sell them. You buy the t-shirts for 39 baht each and try to sell them for double, so let's say 79 baht each. Monthly rent of 10,000 baht and 1,000 for electricity = 11,000/mo divide by 30 days = 367 baht per day. You must sell 10 t-shirts to cover the costs. If you sell a further 20 t-shirts you'll have earned the princely profit of 780 baht. If you share that evenly with tilac you'll have pocketed the grand sum of 390 Baht - or slightly more than the daily minimum wage.  Can you sell more than 30 t-shirts a day?

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## the dogcatcher

> Most can't seem to do simple math(s). 
> 
> Rent + utilities + any staff costs = break even 
> (this is simple and of course there are more costs than this - but for sake of argument let's say just this) 
> 
> Let's say you open a stall to sell T-shirts and your 'tilac' will sit there all day trying to sell them. You buy the t-shirts for 39 baht each and try to sell them for double, so let's say 79 baht each. Monthly rent of 10,000 baht and 1,000 for electricity = 11,000/mo divide by 30 days = 367 baht per day. You must sell 10 t-shirts to cover the costs. If you sell a further 20 t-shirts you'll have earned the princely profit of 780 baht. If you share that evenly with tilac you'll have pocketed the grand sum of 390 Baht - or slightly more than the daily minimum wage. Can you sell more than 30 t-shirts a day?


Oddly enough a mate did just that.
Selling at 150 baht though.
Did ok.
Good pitch outside Tescos in Ban Phe... 5000 a month.

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## yankee99

> Not conjecture, but true possibility that will likely happen. You say you want to buy a business in Thailand? How long have you lived in Thailand and how much do you know about owning a business?
> 
> Personally, I would never own a business in Thailand. Having owned three in the US, it has always been a temptation but the odds are definately not with you. If you are successful, like already stated, you will be run out one way or another. Either the BIB will ask for lots of money, the locals will start exactly the same business right next to you or your landlord will jack prices to the point of not allowing you to make a profit. 
> 
> You have to be Chinese to have a successful business in Thailand. Not conhecture, but fact.


Yes conjecture. I am not asking if buying a business is a good idea. I am not concerned if another business opens next door. Etc etc.

These are all the same problems i had in business in the USA. I only want to know if anyone has first hand experience with a 3+3 lease.  I do appreciate the warning and i am aware of the risks.

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## yankee99

> if the business becomes a success he will raise then rent and hijack the business and squeeze you out



Landlords do this all over the world why would Thailand be different?

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## yankee99

> Originally Posted by yankee99
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by chingching
> ...


Yes i am if that's what it takes.

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## yankee99

> Always those that think they know it all and end up flat on their arse. 
> 
> why do presume i know it all?
> 
> Anyone with any sense at all knows if a business is making money, it is never, never, never sold in Thailand. 
> 
> So you are saying every business ever sold in thailand is a loser? No one sell for a profit? No one sells because of death? No one sells for health reasons? No one sells to retire?
> 
> But always those foolish enough to buy businesses with grandiose ideas of earning a huge income to live in Thailand. 
> ...


 if you any info on a 3+3 i would love to read it.

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## yankee99

> Most can't seem to do simple math(s). 
> 
> Rent + utilities + any staff costs = break even 
> (this is simple and of course there are more costs than this - but for sake of argument let's say just this) 
> 
> Let's say you open a stall to sell T-shirts and your 'tilac' will sit there all day trying to sell them. You buy the t-shirts for 39 baht each and try to sell them for double, so let's say 79 baht each. Monthly rent of 10,000 baht and 1,000 for electricity = 11,000/mo divide by 30 days = 367 baht per day. You must sell 10 t-shirts to cover the costs. If you sell a further 20 t-shirts you'll have earned the princely profit of 780 baht. If you share that evenly with tilac you'll have pocketed the grand sum of 390 Baht - or slightly more than the daily minimum wage.  Can you sell more than 30 t-shirts a day?


Lets say the business averages 150 customers a day averaging 300baht = 45000 this is sales of 1,350,000 a month plus room rent income of 80,000 (per month). for a total of 1430000 = 17,160,000 a year. Now rent 80,000 x 12 = 960,000 salary 15 at 12,000= 180,000 = 2,160,000 a year. Supplies 6,864,000. Some other small expenses (utilities license and others)not worth writing. You can do the math...

Of course i am not selling t-shirts and dont know that business

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## 9999

> There is more to business in Thailand than any sane person can reasonable understand.
> 
> 1. There has to be a need that Thai people can afford
> 2. There has to be a service NO ONE else can provide


Not so, at least for number 1, if it's something like out-sourcing or factory for export. Number 2 is important, you need to make yourself as the falang, indespensible. Then sit back and laugh as they try and fail to copy you.

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## 9999

> I only want to know if anyone has first hand experience with a 3+3 lease.


If being at the end of the bar stool and palsy with the (former) owner counts then yes first hand experience. In this example, the landlords waited for the falang to build a tidy business, cancelled the lease (the falang bought the business off another falang not long before) with no recourse, as continue to run the bar themselves to this day, somewhat poorly and no one goes there any more but that don't mean you'll almost invariably get fucked over on one of these dodgy leases you asked for info on, and people gave you, OP.

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## Smug Farang Bore

Well the Thais don't exactly play Marquis of Queensury when it comes to business 

Even if you've had success elsewhere, things are done different in Thailand.

"the Thai way" 

As was pointed out, if you make a success they will want a slice n if you don't they will leave you alone happy with the rent you pay.

Many things will effect the answer to your question ie location, amount of money involved, type of business and who ya land lord is.

Taking a business in Bangkok is different to Samui n Sakhon Nakon . . . Well!

I rented in Bangkok for 10 years and they made the rules up as they went along especially when they found out Jonny falang was involved.

As for lawyers involved . . You probably die of old age or go skint before you sort it.

If you get stubborn with them, be sure to check your wiring as fires seem to start easy here - even in the rainy season and look both ways when crossing the road.

Good luck..

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## yankee99

> Well the Thais don't exactly play Marquis of Queensury when it comes to business 
> 
> Even if you've had success elsewhere, things are done different in Thailand.
> 
> "the Thai way" 
> 
> As was pointed out, if you make a success they will want a slice n if you don't they will leave you alone happy with the rent you pay.
> 
> Many things will effect the answer to your question ie location, amount of money involved, type of business and who ya land lord is.
> ...


I never said the landlord was thai. But since you asked the landlord is not thai or chinese or asian for that matter.

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## 9999

> the landlord is not thai or chinese or asian for that matter.


They have foreign landlords in Thailand? Are you sure about this?

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## Mid

> you asked for input..you have recieved it...conjecture or otherwise, heed the words, good luck


wot he said .

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## ltnt

^Why not?  Many ferangs have property leased or owned by companies and wives?  Why not rent it out like hundreds already do in Thailand?

Here's a Thai business:  work at the airport for security.

Steal from the baggage and shippers.

Take the stolen goods out and sell off the street or have other family members sell it off for you?

No license required, no over head to speak of and little or no risk involved since you are the law.

Free enterprise at its very best in Thailand.

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## Mid

> Originally Posted by yankee99
> 
> the landlord is not thai or chinese or asian for that matter.
> 
> 
> They have foreign landlords in Thailand? Are you sure about this?


pounds to peanuts the trail ends with a Thai , even if the go between isn't .   :mid:

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## 9999

Well it must be tough to lord over property you don't own, but sure why not eh  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## pickel

I have quite a few friends who have successful businesses in Thailand, and the landlord doesn't come after them for more money other than what is stipulated in the lease they signed. 3+3 year leases are used for the landlord to avoid taxes, and the rent increases are stated in the lease. If people get cheated then they either broke a clause in the contract, or didn't inspect the wording enough and there was a clause that allowed the landlord to do it.

There's a lot of people talking bollocks in this thread.

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## Tom Sawyer

I guess the answer to your question then sums up like this: regardless of 3 +3 if the owner wants to move you out he will find a way. It's really how decent the landlord is. I've rented a home (not a biz) for a dozen years and never faced a rent rise.

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## toslti

You are quite the arrogant knob aren't you. 

Just remember....Pride comes before a fall.

If you are such an expert on business why are you asking others opinions on the  3 + 3 ? Surely you must know the answer.

You're not in Kansas any more Dorothy.

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## the dogcatcher

> I have quite a few friends who have successful businesses in Thailand, and the landlord doesn't come after them for more money other than what is stipulated in the lease they signed. 3+3 year leases are used for the landlord to avoid taxes, and the rent increases are stated in the lease. If people get cheated then they either broke a clause in the contract, or didn't inspect the wording enough and there was a clause that allowed the landlord to do it.
> 
> There's a lot of people talking bollocks in this thread.


Not sure about 3+3 leases but I know alot about 30 year leases.
Lots of people believe that 30+30 are legal.... they are not!
It's down to the landlord if he wants to sign a new lease.
If he won't, then you're screwed.
Still better off pimping your wife.

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## liveinlos

> Originally Posted by liveinlos
> 
> 
> Always those that think they know it all and end up flat on their arse. 
> 
> why do presume i know it all?
> 
> Anyone with any sense at all knows if a business is making money, it is never, never, never sold in Thailand. 
> 
> ...


Name one place in Thailand that you could consistently get 100 farang customers, 30 days each month? You cannot. Not the mall in KK, not Siam Paragon, no where. There is too much competition and people eat at the brand name food places because it is cool to them. If you are going in the restaurant business get ready to lose it all on a grand scale.

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## Eliminator

Yankee, if you want a Million dollars after a year of being here and doing biz in Thailand, you better come with 2 million. Listen to some of the people here. It's a REALLY HARD place to do ANY kind of BIZ. Best to do some RESEARCH on some that have had their business stolen or just been FORCED out by Thais.

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## sunsetter

> After 1-2 year the landlord can increase the leaseprice big time


can and will




> if the business becomes a success he will raise then rent and hijack the business and squeeze you out


can and normally will




> Thank you but i dont really need conjecture.


then fcuk off elsewhere and ask your stupido questions then

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## sunsetter

> 1,000+ customers


strange figure to quote  :Very Happy: 

righto, i had maybe 30 a day on a good day,  taking 10-15k baht plus

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## sunsetter

> Name one place in Thailand that you could consistently get 100 farang customers, 30 days each month?


can.

any of the 2 big resturant bars in the middle of kaosan road, any of the beer bars on soi 4, sure many of the farang pubs across thailand pull 100 plus, like pickle said, lots of bollix being floated here, the OP wont listen either so this threads worthless.

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## Tom Sawyer

Maybe he's renting a factory. I agree with most the above particularly the issue about why he needs to ask that here

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## ltnt

^He's never experienced a 3+3 contract or ever heard of one before I think?  Not found in the USA. Commercial contracts are different there, but I dare say filled with the same possibility of owner neglect, deceit or downright fraud.

If you're in business for your self then be flexible.

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## liveinlos

> Originally Posted by liveinlos
> 
> Name one place in Thailand that you could consistently get 100 farang customers, 30 days each month?
> 
> 
> can.
> 
> any of the 2 big resturant bars in the middle of kaosan road, any of the beer bars on soi 4, sure many of the farang pubs across thailand pull 100 plus, like pickle said, lots of bollix being floated here, the OP wont listen either so this threads worthless.


Think about what you just said and then think about the location? Don't you think the rent cost of these locations is so high that 100 customers there isn't enough either?

I have been to Soi 4 many times and many beer bars never have any customers in them so to say each one gets a minimum of 100 each day is a real stretch. Visit Soi 4 from April to October and all you find is the locals. There sure aren't 100 of them in each beer bar every day either

Now ask the op where is his location is and probably far, far away from downtown tourist ville

One thing any one that has lived in Thailand a long time understands?

If there was a way to make money, every single farang in Thailand would be doing the same business

I think the smart ones realize making money is more of a challenge than they think

And for all of those posters about to pipe off, show some facts like tax receipts or don't bother telling us how many millions you make each month unless you happen to be Thaksin's illegitimate brother (white of course)!

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## Smug Farang Bore

Dunno why he bothered asking as he seems to have everything covered.

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## ltnt

^




> If there was a way to make money, every single farang in Thailand would be doing the same business


I suppose we're limited to those individuals who run small business not those who open corporate type businesses?  You know Honda, Toyota, Samsung, etc.?

There's this one Ferang who is owner and operator of Subway franchises, Pizza Hut and Sizzler restaurants. I think he has a few connections with a hotel chain as well.  He seems to be doing quite well.

The past owner of California Wow or gyms was doing quite well and listed on the S.E.T., recently went tits up due to corrupt book keeping and poor sales.

There's probably more ferangs doing well in business here than as advertised.  Joint venture corporations straw companies are abundant here.  Most financed by foreign capital.

If you want a bar or cell phone shop noodle shop etc then perhaps you're not going to make much of an impact, but if you have a good business plan, good product and capital backing I'm certain you can enter the Thai market place with ease and make some money.

Why Thailand?  Because you like it here?  Cheap labor, low taxes, and pretty much corruptible infrastructure in business dealings.

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## rickschoppers

^
I still say the ones doing very well in big business in Thailand are the Chinese. The number of other nationalities in this arena is very small. Chinese money pretty much runs Thailand as well as many other countries throughout the world (including the US).

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## sunsetter

> I have been to Soi 4 many times and many beer bars never have any customers


was there yesterday, and golden bar easily pulled 100, as did many of the others, numbers game, those bars do a lot better than you think,easy to say that golden bar would pull 1000 dollars per day,no sweat.

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## Smug Farang Bore

^Its had a few of mine over the years.

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## Smug Farang Bore

Recon Tescos opened here because the boss came on holiday here and then needed an excuse to come back alone...



Bet a few are here coz of that.. :sexy:

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## ltnt

> I still say the ones doing very well in big business in Thailand are the Chinese.


Perhaps if you look at import/export business?  Currently the biggest single investor is Japan.  Remember 68,000 Japanese call Thailand "home."

With the new roads and bridges being built across the Mekong the place is about to go ballistic with Chinese imports.  The 2015 Asian open door is about to corrupt any sign of order in business enterprise anywhere in Asia.

Already Singapore is backing up against the invasion of "foreign labor and business enterprises on the horizon."

As usual the open free trade agreements in Asia are about to implode an entire continent.  Looking for a real trade war to break out in the coming months and increasing in negative reactions by Asian members as the date gets closer.

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## Tom Sawyer

> Originally Posted by rickschoppers
> 
> I still say the ones doing very well in big business in Thailand are the Chinese.
> 
> 
> Already Singapore is backing up against the invasion of "foreign labor and business enterprises on the horizon."
> 
> closer.


Yes it will be interesting to see how this works. Does this mean rich thai families can come to Singapore and open a big business without a Singaporean partner and vice versa? Talk about upsetting the elite apple cart

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## rickschoppers

> Originally Posted by rickschoppers
> 
> I still say the ones doing very well in big business in Thailand are the Chinese.
> 
> 
> Perhaps if you look at import/export business?  Currently the biggest single investor is Japan.  Remember 68,000 Japanese call Thailand "home."
> 
> With the new roads and bridges being built across the Mekong the place is about to go ballistic with Chinese imports.  The 2015 Asian open door is about to corrupt any sign of order in business enterprise anywhere in Asia.
> 
> ...


I am not talking about imports/exports, I am talking about who owns the most large businesses in Thailand and who is holding the most money in national debt.

Foreign governments hold about 46 percent of all U.S. debt held by the public, more than $4.5 trillion. The largest foreign holder of U.S. debt is China, which owns more about  $1.2 trillion in bills, notes and bonds, according to the Treasury.

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## DrAndy

> I only want to know if anyone has first hand experience with a 3+3 lease. I do appreciate the warning and i am aware of the risks.


a three year lease is perfectly legal, all you need is a properly drafted lease (a lawyer could do that) and witnesses when both parties sign it and date it

If a clause is put in that then allows you the option of a further three years at the same cost, or more, then that too will be legal enforceable

I have just done exactly that, with a 3+2 years

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## jamescollister

OP you register a lease on the charnote title if 3 years or over, after that the rent can be re negotiated. no bit of paper signed outside of that counts. It does not come under the civil code, it's just a piece of paper.
There are ways of doing things if you are talking real business stuff, not bars etc.
You need to look, if what you are doing is viable long term.
People from the west do do business here, but it's not normally from selling beer or food. Jim

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## the dogcatcher

This subject has come up on a number of occations on TD.
Still don't have a definate answer.
Can anyone nail it down, properly with some proper Thai legalese.
I see what you're saying D.Randy.... but my understanding is that there is no true basis in Thai law that supports what you are saying.
Therefore I'm going with Jimmy Collender's coments.
That's more along the lines of the 30+30 deal which I still don't thimk is legal.

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## DrAndy

up to you

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## jamescollister

> This subject has come up on a number of occations on TD.
> Still don't have a definate answer.
> Can anyone nail it down, properly with some proper Thai legalese.
> I see what you're saying D.Randy.... but my understanding is that there is no true basis in Thai law that supports what you are saying.
> Therefore I'm going with Jimmy Collender's coments.
> That's more along the lines of the 30+30 deal which I still don't thimk is legal.


Longest lease in Thailand is 30 years, any option for an extra 30 is not enforceable.

Anyone talking a 30 lease should do so by yearly rent, not pay up front 30 years. That way if the land owner wants you gone, you won't lose all your money in one hit. Jim

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## Tom Sawyer

Which raises the most obvious question "why sign a 30 year lease for (residential) at all?" stick to year on year - for business lease the question is whether drandy's lease is enforceable if so then it sounds like the OP is good to go

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## ltnt

Actually, holding a 30 year lease is quite common if the Ferang has it in the Company name as is required by law.  30-30 &30 are doable with the right paperwork and Thai seller.  Land is rented, house is owned outright by the ferang.

Point to remember.  In this man's case he wants to rent a shop it appears so dealing directly with the land/property owners is best done face to face with proper legal paper and or attorney in place.  99 has intimated that he's not dealing with a Thai owner/renter and that his business plans are more than a mom and pop store.  He's looking for a stipulated amount of time where he can reliably rent without difficulties from the owners.

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## jamescollister

> Actually, holding a 30 year lease is quite common if the Ferang has it in the Company name as is required by law.  30-30 &30 are doable with the right paperwork and Thai seller.  Land is rented, house is owned outright by the ferang.
> 
> Point to remember.  In this man's case he wants to rent a shop it appears so dealing directly with the land/property owners is best done face to face with proper legal paper and or attorney in place.  99 has intimated that he's not dealing with a Thai owner/renter and that his business plans are more than a mom and pop store.  He's looking for a stipulated amount of time where he can reliably rent without difficulties from the owners.


No such thing as the right paper work, only thing that counts is the lease under the civil code, any other bits of paper are just that, bits of paper.

All these home owning schemes can see the alleged home owner out when ever  Government wants.  Nominee companies are illegal, DSI has begun checking 27,000 foreign companies, those found to be fronts for home ownership may be deported, house and land confiscated. Jim

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## Tom Sawyer

I wonder if they will ever do the latter. It has been talked about for years on TVs property thread. Has any shell company for home ownership ever been annulled, land taken, deportation? I do agree it's a risk and one I'd just avoid with many other possibilities, besides if Thais really don't want foreigners here other than fortnight vacationers then why tempt fate..

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## jamescollister

> I wonder if they will ever do the latter. It has been talked about for years on TVs property thread. Has any shell company for home ownership ever been annulled, land taken, deportation? I do agree it's a risk and one I'd just avoid with many other possibilities, besides if Thais really don't want foreigners here other than fortnight vacationers then why tempt fate..


Ombudsman drew up new laws last year, before parliament now. Jail time for farang a Thais involved, DSI was to investigate farang nominee companies under new powers last year. They are even talking 20% of the confiscate land when sold as a reward to informants.

             Been a long time coming, but I think the crack down has started. Jim

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## ltnt

> checking 27,000 foreign companies,


Yea, yea, yea...same old stuff.  No bite in the bark.  20 years and no problems for ferangs with 30-30 and 30.  Mostly 'Hotels are the target anyway."  BTW, paper does matter.

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## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> checking 27,000 foreign companies,
> 
> 
> Yea, yea, yea...same old stuff.  No bite in the bark.  20 years and no problems for ferangs with 30-30 and 30.  Mostly 'Hotels are the target anyway."  BTW, paper does matter.


Don't know, DSI  are big police and they were only tasked with the enforcement , end of last year. 
Some posters on Samui have been interviewed by local cops, who will have sent the reports off to the DSI. 

                       Think it will gather speed if the money starts to roll in from confiscated property. 


As to the extra bits of paper, where would to take them to get them enforced, not the courts they deal with the civil law and 30 years is the max under the civil code. Can post the act if you want. Jim

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## Tom Sawyer

Whilst I actually think they get what they deserve, such a move could kill off the retiree and longstay tourist market, so let's see, but I doubt it. Maybe the move just gives cops and bureaucrats another avenue to shake down the farang money tree? "want to keep your house/business? Here is the price without an invoice or receipt of course

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## jamescollister

> Whilst I actually think they get what they deserve, such a move could kill off the retiree and longstay tourist market, so let's see, but I doubt it. Maybe the move just gives cops and bureaucrats another avenue to shake down the farang money tree? "want to keep your house/business? Here is the price without an invoice or receipt of course


Think that's why the enforcement was hand over to the DSI, sort of like the Thai FBI. Everyone else was taking back handers or turning a blind eye.

Times are a changing, computers are being linked and too much land has come under alien control. In the Ombudsman's report, he said, if we don't act there will be nothing left for the children of Thailand.

As to retirees and long stayers, they will be fine if they play by the legal rules. I live here, in a house,  over 100 rai of land and a LTD Partnership company. All legal, wife and kids own it all. I may own the toilet seat. jim

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## Tom Sawyer

Well Jim, that's all well and good (thanks for the Ombudsman's report - missed that), I assume that you haven't placed all eggs in one basket? For the majority of posters though, to own a place in Thailand would likely indeed mean moving all or most of their cash here to make the purchase. Not smart - but people continue to do it - and use the Co method. Let's wish them well. Personally, although I could buy, I prefer to rent. Better value and lots to choose from

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## ltnt

> Personally, although I could buy, I prefer to rent. Better value and lots to choose from


I always get a laugh out of this line.  How many years have you been paying rent?

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## jamescollister

> Well Jim, that's all well and good (thanks for the Ombudsman's report - missed that), I assume that you haven't placed all eggs in one basket? For the majority of posters though, to own a place in Thailand would likely indeed mean moving all or most of their cash here to make the purchase. Not smart - but people continue to do it - and use the Co method. Let's wish them well. Personally, although I could buy, I prefer to rent. Better value and lots to choose from


Thailand is my home, no difference if I was in the west, wife 2 kids they would get it all if things went bad.
                   If you are here to make a life and living, different story from being here to retire. Rent is best if you haven't got family to leave it to.
                   Sometimes think farangs think they are just too smart and don't believe the laws will ever be enforced, but Governments like control and more and more laws will get enforced over time. Jim

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## Tom Sawyer

> Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer
> 
> Personally, although I could buy, I prefer to rent. Better value and lots to choose from
> 
> 
> I always get a laugh out of this line.  How many years have you been paying rent?


A long time. My view is it's better for me to invest in propety in my home country where I know the laws (real laws), which I have done, than to roll the dice in a country like this for the very reasons outlined above by you too actually. That's just me and others feel it's better to buy. Depends on ones view and situation. I agree that other than fear of divorce farang married to Thai and who wantto remain here all their lived probably should buy rather than rent (via wife)

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## jamescollister

Little story, posted on  TV already.

Had a farang round, for a few or more beers. He had build a new big farang house on his wife's land, 10 rai, farm land. Telling me all about how smart he was in getting this big house cheap.

BIL , who's wife was expecting was staying with us [ family ] BIL is what you may call the county clerk. Ask him about the farangs kouse and title. Answer no problem, no one cares.

I say what if I care and complain to you and want it knocked down. BIL thinks for a moment and says, 4 week for the demolition order and it's gone.

Didn't complain of cause, guy died shortly after, cancer of the liver.

Nearest town from me Buntarik, Tesco's came, 30 shops and houses bulldozer down.

When the authorities want to act they  can act fast. Jim

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## Tom Sawyer

Yes and it's not just farangs, Thais do it to other Thais too. A 7/11 near my place was built from scratch on a busy corner market Soi. Someone complained about the way it was built ( don't know concern ) anyway the owner was forced to tear it down to foundation get proper approval which he did and built it exactly as before which he did

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## jamescollister

> Yes and it's not just farangs, Thais do it to other Thais too. A 7/11 near my place was built from scratch on a busy corner market Soi. Someone complained about the way it was built ( don't know concern ) anyway the owner was forced to tear it down to foundation get proper approval which he did and built it exactly as before which he did


Those shops and houses in Buntharik were all Thai. Some well connected locally, big Government and big business can have the laws enforced fast when they want to.
If you are out side the rules, not much you can do. 
Play by the rules and be safe, as said have too much to lose by playing games with the law. 
I am a quest in this country and they can say go home at anytime. Jim

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## ltnt

^How many "guests," in Thailand have actually been asked to "go Home?"  As for the government taking away you're property, the case is only for those who break the property laws not by whim or fancy as you suggest.

If you believe such then you need to leave now before the big brother sits on you.  Crazy stipulations.

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## jamescollister

> ^How many "guests," in Thailand have actually been asked to "go Home?"  As for the government taking away you're property, the case is only for those who break the property laws not by whim or fancy as you suggest.
> 
> If you believe such then you need to leave now before the big brother sits on you.  Crazy stipulations.


I'm totally legal, don't skirt laws or play legal games.
Immigration law is plan, anyone convict of even a minor crime should be deported. Not enforced often, but can be enforced at any time.
Not worth the trouble, stay legal stay safe.  Jim

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## Tom Sawyer

^
agree with that

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## DrAndy

> Which raises the most obvious question "why sign a 30 year lease for (residential) at all?" stick to year on year


because you can get tossed out after your year is up, or the cost raised each year

with a 30 year lease, you should be safe for the period

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## DrAndy

> As for the government taking away you're property, the case is only for those who break the property laws not by whim or fancy as you suggest


if they change the law wrt shell companies, those formed before the law is passed (if it is)  should not be affected

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## ltnt

^Agree, they're not likely to kill the golden goose just yet.

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## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by ltnt
> 
>  As for the government taking away you're property, the case is only for those who break the property laws not by whim or fancy as you suggest
> 
> 
> if they change the law wrt shell companies, those formed before the law is passed (if it is)  should not be affected


Problem with that is that nominee companies have never been legal, the laws were just not enforced by the land department and the business department or the labor department for that matter [ run a company, need a W/P ]

The new laws are just increasing the penalties, Jim

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## rickschoppers

^
Have to chuckle whenever anyone talks about enforcing law in Thailand. It seems many have not learned that laws are never really enforced unless a lot of money is passed under the table.

At the same time, laws in Thailand are often not enforced when large sums of money are also paid under the table.

Moral of the story, everything boils down to money.

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## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer
> 
> Which raises the most obvious question "why sign a 30 year lease for (residential) at all?" stick to year on year
> 
> 
> because you can get tossed out after your year is up, or the cost raised each year
> 
> with a 30 year lease, you should be safe for the period


Lease is just a long term rental, nothing to say you can not take a lease for X years and pay the rental yearly at a set price.

Paying up front would be silly, leases can be broken legally and otherwise.

Know a guy on Samui who had a 5 year lease on a bar, was doing OK. Owner wanted him out after 2 years, owner sent an negotiation team around. Negotiation last 10 minutes, farang spent 2 weeks in hospital. Jim

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## ltnt

^I have to go with a fellow poster here, "you just can't argue with idiots."

I personally have had a 30+30 and house ownership. I have sold it and also transferred it through the Thailand Government property offices.

Can and is done all the time in Thailand.  Perfectly legal and promoted by those who want to sell property to foreigners.

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## jamescollister

> ^I have to go with a fellow poster here, "you just can't argue with idiots."
> 
> I personally have had a 30+30 and house ownership. I have sold it and also transferred it through the Thailand Government property offices.
> 
> Can and is done all the time in Thailand.  Perfectly legal and promoted by those who want to sell property to foreigners.


Quwstion did you do the lease through builder or some 3 rd person. Many do them through wives or G/F.
Leases come under the civil an commercial code, giving money to a Thai national by an alien to buy land for the aliens use, is a crime under the land code.
Many people who set up these deals for money are aware if things go bad, it's the alien who loses everything not them.

Some schemes that farangs use carry jail time, be careful what you sign. Just because a law has not been enforced doesn't mean it can't or will not be enforced.

In Thailand if a complain is made in writing [by a Thai ] will be acted on, unless you have friends in very high places and not local, but BKK. Jim

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## Tom Sawyer

^
I want to reinforce that point. A lease is just that - a lease. Yet many suckers end up paying the whole 5.5 million baht or whatever up front for 30 years. Why do they do that? Pay year to year - which of course is simply rent, and then month to month. At the end of the day what some people can't seem to get into their heads is that a lease is a LEASE it isn't their property. Not now, not ever.

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## ltnt

^^Through the owner/builder.  Directly.  Land is in my company name and house in my name.  This is the way it works.  Better to put it all in your Thai wife's name and save on transfer fees when you sell.  Costs for foreign company transfers are higher than Thai on Thai.

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## DrAndy

> Lease is just a long term rental, nothing to say you can not take a lease for X years and pay the rental yearly at a set price.


If the seller agrees to that, no problem

the seller may want to sell the lease with all the money paid upfront

up to you, find somewhere else if you are worried

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## the dogcatcher

" and promoted by those who want to sell property to foreigners."
There's your problem.

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## jamescollister

> ^^Through the owner/builder.  Directly.  Land is in my company name and house in my name.  This is the way it works.  Better to put it all in your Thai wife's name and save on transfer fees when you sell.  Costs for foreign company transfers are higher than Thai on Thai.


That sounds a bit more legal than some off these home owning schemes.
I have a LTD partnership company, wife owns all the land, I own the toilet. Only place my name appears is in the company name.
As said if you upset the wrong person or someone wants to put you out of business or get you off your land, you as a non Thai are in a bad spot.

When we started I got the no problem, no one cares. Went through the National SME department and there is a lot off people who care and they can all make things hard for a farang if they want or someone wants them to. Jim

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## ltnt

^I fail to share your concern.

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## jamescollister

> ^I fail to share your concern.


I may be just a belt and braces man. Jim

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## DrAndy

I think you see ghosts Jim where none exist

unless of course you own a fantastic piece of land in a place where a new casino could be built

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## jamescollister

> I think you see ghosts Jim where none exist
> 
> unless of course you own a fantastic piece of land in a place where a new casino could be built


No I own a small rubber processing factory [LTD Partnership ] and if we hadn't done everything by the book we could be closed down by many Government Departments, from EPA to the rubber board.

Thing I have leaned over the years, be a farang who brings money from overseas, no one seems to care. Start making money here and people get jealous, if you are clean and all above board, totally legal nothing they can do. 

BIL today sold 7 rai of mature rubber trees 1 .4 Mil Baht, no title, we have around 100 rai of rubber. Factory has an open rubber license, Government stopped issuing them about 4 years ago, fear of the open trade agreements with ASEAN.

Laws are there and can be enforced, most farangs just don't understand the system and most shyster lawyers are just there to take your money.

Most live their lives out without a problem, but if a problem comes you have a real problem. TIT. Jim

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## rickschoppers

^
.......and how much money are you paying out to said "government agencies?"

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## DrAndy

> No I own a small rubber processing factory [LTD Partnership ] and if we hadn't done everything by the book we could be closed down by many Government Departments, from EPA to the rubber board.


obviously if you are running a business, then the law becomes much more significant

most people here are not in that situation

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## jamescollister

> ^
> .......and how much money are you paying out to said "government agencies?"


Taxes and VAT, as said legal all the way. Jim

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## Tom Sawyer

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> No I own a small rubber processing factory [LTD Partnership ] and if we hadn't done everything by the book we could be closed down by many Government Departments, from EPA to the rubber board.
> 
> 
> obviously if you are running a business, then the law becomes much more significant
> 
> most people here are not in that situation


True. But his original point was that "anyone" who says they're "Running a business" when all they're doing is owning a piece of land with a house is open to the same kind of scrutiny. The government has repeatedly warned it will act against these, and the rhetoric has gained greater pitch over successive government (Thaksin, Military, Patsy-Proxy and Yingluck). There is reason that this may come to fruition - given as he points that anyone can complain about you and then the authorities must investigate. You want to take the piss out of everyone with a cautionary view, well up to you. As you well know, this thread is called "Doing Things Legally" which I have laughed at before, but it is what it is. Should we not be talking about doing things legally then?

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## Mozz

Thanks Jim,

 Your posts are much appreciated reading.
Not every farang is ducking and weaving :Smile: 

Nic

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## jamescollister

> Thanks Jim,
> 
>  Your posts are much appreciated reading.
> Not every farang is ducking and weaving
> 
> Nic


Thanks for that, think there are many like me, totally on the up and up.
Problem as I see it, is westerners just have an overpowering need to posses and own things. When in reality they are probably safer by not trying to own. Jim

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## DrAndy

> There is reason that this may come to fruition - given as he points that anyone can complain about you and then the authorities must investigate. You want to take the piss out of everyone with a cautionary view, well up to you. As you well know, this thread is called "Doing Things Legally" which I have laughed at before, but it is what it is. Should we not be talking about doing things legally then?


sorry, do you have a point?

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## billy the kid

> you asked for input..you have received it...conjecture or otherwise, heed the words, good luck


agree also 100%, but keep us posted Yankie.

maybe you can warn others of the pitfalls of doing business in the land of smiles.
though most of us on ere have heard the dark stories.
perhaps you'll be a breath of fresh air.

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