#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Teaching In Thailand >  >  > Resources for Teachers >  >  Chiang Mai Noon's grammar clinic.

## ChiangMai noon

This thread was rudely disrupted on the teacher's forum.
Not taken seriously at all.

Fire away, I'll be more than happy to help.

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## slimboyfat

She's having some trouble with her hip.

And policemen are looking too young these days.

Can you help?

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## Thetyim

What's the difference between Continually and continuously?

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## ChiangMai noon

I don't think so, no.

i was kind of hoping to impress with a question about the different uses of the present perfect and past simple tenses.
the second and third conditionals would do.

Certainly, if you are the kind of pillock that thinks that the adjective "loose" is the same thing as the verb "lose".
I'm your man.
 :Smile:

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## Begbie

Does inventory have a silent o ?

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## slimboyfat

what is the difference between inquire and enquire?

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## ChiangMai noon

^^
it does, yes.

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## Begbie

Which is correct ?

1.Go into the drawer

2.Open the drawer

Note: this is a trick question as i already know the answer.

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## ChiangMai noon

the difference between continually and continuously is non existent. these days at least.
i guess there are exceptions in usage.

"He types continuously" sounds better than the alternative.
But...........

I believe that modern language has accepted that the pair are the same.
That is a good thing in my opinion.

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## Spin

My friend you, I see she go house you.

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## Marmite the Dog

Let's not ruin this thread with the UK vs US English.

CMN is our authority on ENGLISH grammar, not Simplified English. Hillbilly should run that thread.

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## barbaro

> Let's not ruin this thread with the UK vs US English.


Agree.  If a new topic comes up such as above, someone can start a thread about it.  There can be good in this section.  I always need new ideas and I'll be in the classroom again soon.

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## Sir Burr

> What's the difference between Continually and continuously?


Continual implies that there are short gaps in whatever activity you are describing. ie being continually interupted by a person.
Continuous there are no gaps.

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## kingwilly

> I don't think so, no.
> 
> i was kind of hoping to impress with a question about the different uses of the present perfect and past simple tenses.
> the second and third conditionals would do.
> 
> Certainly, if you are the kind of pillock that thinks that the adjective "loose" is the same thing as the verb "lose".
> I'm your man.


Lose your loose balls!

is that rite?

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## klongmaster

> "Pontypridd are playing Llanelli" is correct.


not exactly a grammar Q but can you please explain why the double "ll" at the start of the word Llanelli is pronounced "kl" while the double "ll" in the middle of the word is pronounced "ll"...

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## ChiangMai noon

^
the double l at the beginning of llanelli and the middele one are pronounced exactly the same as a Welsh 'll' which sounds nothing like l.
only english people pronounce it 'kl'.

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## ChiangMai noon

I see Benbaaa lurking.
perhaps he could enlighten us on the varied uses of 'there is..... there are' in no less than 3000 words.
 :Smile:

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## keda

> ^^
> it does, yes.


 Not referring to the inventory enquiry, I hope.

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## Marmite the Dog

> We ARE getting hamered.
> or the team is getting hammered.
> While the team is a single unit made up of many parts is is still a single unit.  But if we are to use the plural 'they' or 'we' then "are" is certainly proper.  BUT if we are to use the singular as in 'the team,' "is" shuo;ld be used.  Fuckin guys got a country named afer a language they are havng a hard time speaking properly.
> Now.
> There *are* many parts in a car..
> OR
> A car *is* made up of many parts?
> as you said 
> 
> ...


Being lectured on English by a non-native speaker; whatever next?!  :La:

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## Thetyim

> Continual implies that there are short gaps in whatever activity you are describing. ie being continually interupted by a person.
> Continuous there are no gaps.


That's the answer I was expecting

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## ChiangMai noon

> That's the answer I was expecting


I disagree however.
There is no difference in modern usage.
None whatsoever, use either one as you please.

For me it is more natural to use coninuously after the verb and continually before it.

i.e, she moans continuously.
     she is continually moaning.

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## Sir Burr

^
Modern usage = euphemism for being lazy.

A fan belt is a continuous strip of rubber. You can't say it is a continual strip of rubber.

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## ChiangMai noon

^
bollux.
It's my grammar clinic and while your input is welcomed, I have the final say on the matter.
 :wales:

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## Sir Burr

^
Bah! Humbug sir. You can't even spell bollocks correctly!

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## keda

This is a gramar thred, not spelink.

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## Sir Burr

^troo.

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## NickA

> while your input is welcomed


Welcomed or welcome???

This grammer stuff ain't not half difficult, ain't it

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## ChiangMai noon

^
in the case of welcomed, I am using the passive verb.
It is, you see, welcomed by me.

A simple subject object swap, sounds far more natural than "I welcome your opinion."

"Your opinion is welcome" is also fine.
the adjective is used rather than the verb and alludes to the opinion being a welcome one, though not necessarily by the recipient and owner of the proud clinic.
Ergo, the choice of 'welcomed' is the better option in this circumstance at least.

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## NickA

Sorry, but I have to agree with CMN on both points :Sad:

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## NickA

^although I think there MAY be a difference of usage, I think the average person understands both in exactly the same way, hence the difference is lost in translation

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## Lily

> The other one has already been answered to my satisfaction by me. there is no difference in usage these days whatever you or Burr believe


You are wrong and it has become quite fashionable for British people who must not have learnt correct grammar to call all incorrect speech either 'common usage' or 'American English'.

Did they teach grammar in British schools in the seventies, eighties and nineties?

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## ChiangMai noon

> Did they teach grammar in British schools in the seventies, eighties and nineties?


They did in Wales.
Not in England.

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## ChiangMai noon

Interestingly enough, we have tenses in Welsh that mirror the English tense system.
A bastardisation through translation I believe.

A green to anyone that can tell me what tense I'm writing this in 

"Rydw i wedi bod yn chwarae........"

 :wales:

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## Begbie

future imperative.

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## ChiangMai noon

^
And a red for anyone that gets it wrong.
 :Smile:

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## ChiangMai noon

^^
were you in the pub over the last couple of evenings at any point begbie?
me and Marmite and Elsie were playing spot the TD poster.

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## Frankenstein

'Continually' vs. 'continuously' is a question of semantics, not grammar.

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## ChiangMai noon

^
Amen.

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## Begbie

^^^No no and no, I'm back in K.L.

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## Marmite the Dog

I think this thread needs a serious clean-up already.

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## ChiangMai noon

^
why?
This isn't ajarn.

they moved my clinic into the pub over there.
It was deemed trollish in nature.

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## Begbie

> I think this thread needs a serious clean-up already.


Is this grammatically correct ?

A number of cultures seem to add redundant words to sentences.

Canadian ...eh

Jewish .... already

Singapore ...lah

Glaswegian....so it is.

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## ChiangMai noon

^
it's very American.
they have disposed of the use of the perfect tense.

"I have done it already"
becomes
"I did it already"

It's twisted and utterly wrong.

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## kingwilly

> ^
> why?
> This isn't ajarn.
> 
> they moved my clinic into the pub over there.
> It was deemed trollish in nature.


no idea why either.....  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Marmite the Dog

> Jewish .... already


I didn't mean it like that. More an emphasis on the short time frame, eh.

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## Lily

^Then you should have said  'This thread is only three pages long, and it already needs a clean up.'

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## NickA

I thought the original statement made perfect sense... maybe it could have been written better, but most posters on here are as thick as two short planks, so who cares?

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## Marmite the Dog

> Then you should have said 'This thread is only three pages long, and it already needs a clean up.'


I could've said that, but there was nothing wrong with what I wrote, so I'll stick with that.

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## Begbie

alright already, but it wasn't grammatically correct.

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## shehiredahitman

The Star Trek phrase 'to boldly go where no man, etc' is grammatically incorrect. 

It should be 'to go boldly'.

Grates on me that does.

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## Lily

^Split infinitive.

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## bradthai

so now we're into physics????????? :Smile:

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## ChiangMai noon

nothing wrong with split infinitives.
especially in sci-fi shows.
lily appears to be somewhat of a pedant.
i believe she should open her own clinic, not free of charge.

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## friscofrankie

> The split infinitive has been present in English ever since the 14th century, but it was not until the 19th century that grammarians labeled and condemned the usage. The only rationale for condemning the construction is based on a false analogy with Latin. The thinking is that because the Latin infinitive is a single word, the equivalent English construction should be treated as if it were a single unit.


While I had no fuckin' idea what it was called, I have always thought it is just bad writing to use therms such as the example:



> I decided to quickly and directly go home


For some reason just sounds wrong; whereas,
"I decided to go home, quickly and directly."  has much more literate, even melodious, sound and appearance.  

The other example on this page:



> To really learn a language...


again sounds immature and trite.  I would prefer to see or use;
"To learn a language well." (note the absence of the word "really").
I guess that's just my personal preference, though.

There are time I will want to use the word "But" to begin a sentence this being a cursed no-no when I was going to school.  When, O Great Wise Ones, do you think this is appropriate? When is it not?  What are the rules!?!?  

Are there any real, hard and fast rules in English Grammar?  Or are they all just guidelines?  When are these guidelines applied and when can they be ignored?

*How do I know???
*
But that's a subject for another thread.

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## Gallowspole

What are the past forms of 'to shit'?

I prefer shat - as in _the cat shat on the mat -_ it's got a certain je ne sais quoi about it.
But I've heard _the_ _cat shit on the mat.

_And even_ the cat shitted all over the mat.

_What form of shit is the best? 

Is there a difference between American shit and British shit?

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## ChiangMai noon

shit, shat, shit.

definitively.

"i shit daily."

"i shat yesterday"

"i have shit thrice today, my belly hurts like a tractor"

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## Gallowspole

Isn't that final shit a noun?

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## Gallowspole

Perhaps, I had shit my pants by the time the 30th Chang was put in front of me.

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## ChiangMai noon

^^



i have no idea what you talk of.
 :Smile:

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## obsidian

merkan shit rules!

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## NickA

crapped, turded, arse-puked,

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## ChiangMai noon

^
mods are welcomed.

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## NickA

> ^
> mods are welcome.


ah, that's better

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## shazbut

Book 'em Dano or Dano, book 'em.

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## Frankenstein

Is Danbo grammatically correct?

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## robin

> Book 'em Dano or Dano, book 'em.


^
Vocative case.

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## slimboyfat

CMN is a grammar god.

i just felt like typing that before i pass out

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## robin

So can you tell me, CMN, what's the difference between historic and historical and why is historical often pronounced with a mute H by well spoken people?

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## Sir Burr

Can you make a sentence that has in it, "and and and and and" and make perfect sense?

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## keda

There should be spaces between the and and and and and and...

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## Lily

> "i have shit thrice today, my belly hurts like a tractor"





> Isn't that final shit a noun?


No. It is the present perfect verb tense.

It is still a current issue because the effects of having shit three times is still relevant to the time of speaking.

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## Gallowspole

> Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon
> 
> "i have shit thrice today, my belly hurts like a tractor"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


CMN has edited his third sentence.

He initially had written- I had a shit.

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## Gallowspole

Hence




> ^^
> 
> 
> 
> i have no idea what you talk of.

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## Thetyim

> There should be spaces between the and and and and and and...


I can remember that one
Something about signwriting a pub sign was it ?

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## lom

RolandandAndrew

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## Sir Burr

> Originally Posted by keda
> 
> There should be spaces between the and and and and and and...
> 
> 
> I can remember that one
> Something about signwriting a pub sign was it ?


Yeah.....that's the one.

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## benbaaa

What is the difference between time, tense, aspect and mood?
Does the past simple refer only to past time?
Does the present simple only refer to present time?

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## ChiangMai noon

^
Good questions benbaaa, though I suspect you know the answers already.

I'll answer the obvious one first...





> Does the present simple only refer to present time?


No it doesn't.
It can be used to talk about future time, especially with regard to timetables.

"the plane takes off at 3.00 tomorrow."

in joke narrative also.

"I am in this pub right, when this bird walks in yeah...."

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## Marmite the Dog

> Does the present simple only refer to present time?


I always call it the 'usual tense', because it refers to what usually happens.

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## ChiangMai noon

> Does the past simple refer only to past time?


I'll have to give this one some thought.

I had assumed it did.
I suspect from your question that it doesn't.

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## ChiangMai noon

> Does the past simple refer only to past time?


still not sure, but how about in the case of formal, polite enquiries.

"I wonder if you could open the window."

is this actually the past simple or not?

or reported speech.

"He told me he was Welsh."

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## benbaaa

I'd tell you the answer if I *knew*.   :Smile:

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## benbaaa

He knows.
I guess he knows.
I would imagine that he knows.
I would think that he knew.

Any help?

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## ChiangMai noon

> I'd tell you the answer if I *knew*.


I know that we use the past simple form of the verb in the second conditional, but it's not strictly speaking the past simple tense is it?

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## benbaaa

> I know that we use the past simple form of the verb in the second conditional, but it's not strictly speaking the past simple tense is it?


What tense is it, then?  :Smile:

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## ChiangMai noon

^
the second conditional tense.
 :Smile:

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## benbaaa

No such animal.  :Smile:

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## Smeg

A language consistency question. 

Which is correct, "Chiang Mai Noon" or "ChiangMai noon"?

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## Hootad Binky

> Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog
> 
> 
> Let's not ruin this thread with the UK vs US English.
> 
> 
> Agree.  If a new topic comes up such as above, someone can start a thread about it.  There can be good in this section.  I always need new ideas and I'll be in the classroom again soon.


They are both valid and both part of the English language. To suggest one is better than the other is simple bigotry.

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## Hootad Binky

> Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon
> 
> The other one has already been answered to my satisfaction by me. there is no difference in usage these days whatever you or Burr believe
> 
> 
> You are wrong and it has become quite fashionable for British people who must not have learnt correct grammar to call all incorrect speech either 'common usage' or 'American English'.
> 
> Did they teach grammar in British schools in the seventies, eighties and nineties?


English is what is spoken by native English speakers in everyday life. It's dynamic and slowly changes over time.

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## Hootad Binky

> ^
> it's very American.
> they have disposed of the use of the perfect tense.
> 
> "I have done it already"
> becomes
> "I did it already"
> 
> It's twisted and utterly wrong.


To suggest Americans don't use the present perfect is "twisted and utterly wrong." How long have you lived in the U.S., by the way, to come up with such an informed observation?

Similarly, Americans say "I've gotten over it" and the British say 'I've got over it," which is correct?

Neither. It makes no difference to meaning, which is paramount. The rest is chauvinism

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## Hootad Binky

> There are time I will want to use the word "But" to begin a sentence this being a cursed no-no when I was going to school. When, O Great Wise Ones, do you think this is appropriate? When is it not? What are the rules!?!?


It's a difference of register (formality). "But" is fine at the beginning of an informal written sentence. Otherwise "however" or "on the other hand" or "conversely," followed by a comma, will suffice.

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## Gallowspole

removed

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## Hootad Binky

> shit, shat, shit.
> 
> definitively.
> 
> "i shit daily."
> 
> "i shat yesterday"
> 
> "i have shit thrice today, my belly hurts like a tractor"





> Isn't that final shit a noun?


Past-participle! In old days they probably said shat, though.

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## Hootad Binky

> Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon
> 
> I know that we use the past simple form of the verb in the second conditional, but it's not strictly speaking the past simple tense is it?
> 
> 
> What tense is it, then?


The second conditional is not actually a tense, since it refers to hypothetical or unreal situations.

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## ChiangMai noon

^
Thanks for boosting the thread so hootad.
it is meant to be light hearted.

I base my observations on the lack of perfect usage on teahers that strugle with it more than students especially in regard to the yets and already's.
also movies and HBO series.
 :Smile:

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## Frankenstein

> Originally Posted by benbaaa
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon
> ...


Subjunctive, innit?

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## a. boozer

> What's the difference between Continually and continuously?


One vowel.

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## buad hai

> One vowel.


And one more post for yet another century....

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## ChiangMai noon

Excellent work me.

that's number 48 up.
 :Smile:

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## buad hai

USAGE In precise usage, continual means 'frequent, repeating at intervals' and continuous means 'going on without pause or interruption':: we suffered from the continual attacks of mosquitoes; | the waterfall’s continuous flow creates an endless roar. The most common error is the use of continuous where continual is meant: | continual (that is, 'intermittent') rain or tantrums can be tolerated; continuous (that is, 'uninterrupted') rain or tantrums cannot be tolerated. To prevent misunderstanding, some careful writers use | intermittent instead of continual, and | uninterrupted in place of continuous. Continuous is the word to use in describing spatial relationships, as in | a continuous series of rooms or | a continuous plain of arable land. Avoid using continuous or continuously as a way of describing something that occurs at regular or seasonal intervals: in the sentence, | our synagogue’s Hanukkah candle-lighting ceremony has been held continuously since 1925, the word continuously should be replaced with annually.

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## lom

> Excellent work me.  that's number 48 up.


Don't forget to report it in your century thread thread so you get one post more there as well.  :Smile:

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## Jet Gorgon

I like constantly. Perpetually. Non-stop. Unending. Always. All the f*ing time.

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## The Gentleman Scamp

When I tickle Sandra, she says _"You are so flirt"_ which makes me stop and wince with my eyes screwed up tight and my mouth like I have bitten into a lemon.

Then she tells me to shut up and that I know nothing about English.

She also pronounces 'anus', 'anoose' - do you have any words of wisdom that could improve our communications?

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## Frankenstein

Just say 'anal' instead and you'll avoid that problem altogether.

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## kingwilly

> ^
> Thanks for boosting the thread so hootad.
> it is meant to be light hearted.
> 
> I base my observations on the lack of perfect usage on teahers that strugle with it more than students especially in regard to the yets and already's.
> also movies and HBO series.


i think ur credibility as a language consultant is somewhat lacking....

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## benbaaa

Michael Lewis says in _The English Verb_ that the use of the past simple denotes *remoteness*.  Usually it's remoteness in *time* (as in I shat a big one yesterday morning), but it can also be *social* remoteness (which is where overly polite hotel receptionists ask you "What name was it, sir?") or remoteness from *reality* (which is why it's used in unreal conditionals, such as "If I were you..."). In the other example ("I would imagine he knew by now"), the speaker is distancing himself from the possibility of being wrong - another form of remoteness.

*do not under any circumstances attempt to explain this to Thai learners*

 :Smile:

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## klongmaster

> *do not under any circumstances attempt to explain this to Thai learners*


or the Welsh I suspect...

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## benbaaa

^ Quite.   :Smile:

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## shehiredahitman

A grammar question :

When writing what somebody is saying, does the punctuation go inside or outside of the quotation marks & should a capital letter be used?

He said, "What day is it?"?

Also, is the use of a comma before the words 'because' or after 'and' right or wrong?

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## keda

He said, "What day is it?"

Did he say, "What day is it?"?

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## buad hai

> He said, "What day is it?"


Somehow this always bothers me. I realize it's a typographical convention, but as a logic guy, I want tags to be balanced. Sentences begin with a capital letter and end with a period or question mark. The sentence above ends with neither. To me, that sentence is the equivalent of something like:


[........(........])

It just doesn't look right....

How can you end the sentence (with the question mark) before you end the quote that is embedded in the sentence?

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## keda

He said, "What day is it?"

The quotation marks enclose the quote, which in this case is issued as a question. 

Now, is, "He said, "What day is it""? grammatically correct?

Or, is, "He said, "What day is it.""? more precise?

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## sabang

It's stuff like this that makes me realise I was never cut out to teach.  :Sad:

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## Mister Fixit

> The Star Trek phrase 'to boldly go where no man, etc' is grammatically incorrect. 
> 
> It should be 'to go boldly'.
> 
> Grates on me that does.


Split infinitive

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## Breny

> Michael Lewis says in _The English Verb_ that the use of the past simple denotes *remoteness*. Usually it's remoteness in *time* (as in I shat a big one yesterday morning), but it can also be *social* remoteness (which is where overly polite hotel receptionists ask you "What name was it, sir?") or remoteness from *reality* (which is why it's used in unreal conditionals, such as "If I were you..."). In the other example ("I would imagine he knew by now"), the speaker is distancing himself from the possibility of being wrong - another form of remoteness.
> 
> *do not under any circumstances attempt to explain this to Thai learners*


Or you could just say that it is a "preposition" , Either adjectival or adverbial. It depends on what the context is within the sentence  :Smile:

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## Breny

> A grammar question :
> 
> When writing what somebody is saying, does the punctuation go inside or outside of the quotation marks & should a capital letter be used?
> 
> He said, "What day is it?"?
> 
> Also, is the use of a comma before the words 'because' or after 'and' right or wrong?


It depends whether it is direct or reported speech. Direct is as if someone is asking a question to you or an other. Reported is when it is written as in a newspaper. Direct speech has the syntax inside the quotation marks as you have correctly written in your post. I think,

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