#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Thailand and Asia News >  >  > World News >  >  Malaysian  Airliner shot down over Ukraine

## Dillinger

BBC News - Malaysia airliner crashes in east Ukraine

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## Dandyhole

295 on board

BBC News - Malaysia airliner crashes in east Ukraine

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## nigelandjan

Think this was downed by a surface to air missile from early reports ,, Jeez who is in charge of these bastard things on the ground as we fly over them ??

BTW  God R I P all those poor souls on board .

Surely this must spell the end of this airline for good ?  why oh why  tf was it doing flying this close to a known war zone ??

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## Gipsy

Live airliner crash updates on the BBC now.... Link

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## Roobarb

^^ Agreed Nige, RIP all those on board.

In fairness to Malaysian Airlines I don't think any other airline was diverting flights to avoid the area.  Virgin and Lufthansa have only just now announced that they will be re-routing flights to avoid Eastern Ukraine and I expect the others will follow suit.

It's certainly not been a good year for MH...

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## kingwilly

Holy shit..

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## helge

Poor bastards

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## kingwilly

It was also reportedly hit at 10,000 feet.

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## helge

> It was also reportedly hit at 10,000 feet.


Meters

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## OhOh

TG 911 just entering Ukrainian airspace - this afternoons flight from LHR to BKK

Thai Airways (TG) #911

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## kingwilly

> Originally Posted by kingwilly
> 
> 
> It was also reportedly hit at 10,000 feet.
> 
> 
> Meters


Thank you for the correction.

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## nigelandjan

Think there was over 20 Americans on board ,,, watch this space

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## Mr Lick

Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 is thought to have crashed near the settlement of Grabovo, as the Ukrainian government and rebels traded allegations it was shot down.







The ill-fated aircraft taking off







BBC News - In pictures: Malaysia Airlines plane crash in Ukraine

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## helge

Looks like MH 17 was shot down by the separatists, who mistook it for an AN 26.

We shall see

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## helge

Airlines were warned in april about using the Ukraine corridor

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## Chittychangchang

I've decided to treat the wife and her mother to a surprise holiday in LOS... 

They fly out on Saturday with Malaysian Airlines.

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## harrybarracuda

There would not have been a conflict if that arrogant, thieving prick Putin had not started this row.

I hope the c u n t rots in hell.

I actually feels sorry for the Malaysian transport minister, he must have just about thought he was in the clear.

Now ENT and Shaggy will be blaming the Yids or something.

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## OhOh

> Looks like MH 17 was shot down by the separatists, who mistook it for an AN 26.  We shall see


Most keyboards have one of these buttons, have you not found it yet?



The West Coast have a "Blame China" button.

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## helge

Mine says "Blame the Soviets"  :Smile: 

I was referring to the " Facebook Incident" earlier today, when the separatist leader announced the successful downing of an Antonov

The announcement was later removed

The Russians have more info

We shall see

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## blue

An official with Malaysia Airlines says at least one Canadian was among the 295 people aboard a passenger plane that was downed Thursday over Ukraine.

Huib Gorter, the airlines senior senior vice-president, says 154 people were Dutch, 27 were Australians, 23 were Malaysians, 11 were Indonesian, six were from the United Kingdom, four were from Germany, four were from Belgium, and three were from the Philippines.


Gorter says authorities are still trying to determine the nationalities of the rest of the passengers.


Malaysian passenger plane was shot down by rebels, intercepted phone calls prove: Ukraine’s president says | National Post

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## Ronin

Jesus, as if MAS and the colleagues of the ill-fated crew on MH370 needed this not to mention the passengers and their families RIP to all who perished.  Let's hope something some good can happen for MAS sometime soon although I can't imagine what.

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## bsnub

> Originally Posted by helge
> 
> Looks like MH 17 was shot down by the separatists, who mistook it for an AN 26.  We shall see
> 
> 
> Most keyboards have one of these buttons, have you not found it yet?
> 
> 
> 
> The West Coast have a "Blame China" button.


Of course, it couldn't be Russia's fault. They are the saint of the world. You and I know that it was the evil US. Obama shot it down himself from the oval office using a Playstation 4 and some tinfoil. 

Derp

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## thaimeme

Can you imagine all the spare GTAMs around the world and the thousands of daily flights criss-crossing the globe.

Do the math.

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## bsnub

^ This plane was cruising at 33,000 feet out of the range of all but the most sophisticated of GTAMs. The kind that is only possessed by nation states.

More then likely this is what was used;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

27 Aussies on board
9 UK
4 Germans
4 Belgians

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## zygote1

> ^ This plane was cruising at 33,000 feet out of the range of all but the most sophisticated of GTAMs. The kind that is only possessed by nation states.
> 
> More then likely this is what was used;
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system


Multiple Ukrainian airplanes and helicopters were shot down in the previous weeks by forces using a Buk missile system. It seems that Russian trained or more likely, Russian operatives were operating the missile systems. More damning are the intercepts of social media and phonecalls of the  rebels celebrating the downing of  a presumed Ukrainian military transport aircraft. The rebels quickly moved to  remove all messages once the  error was realized.

All signs point to the Russians. Putin now has  the blood of a lot of Europeans on his hands. It will be interesting to see what Merkel and the other EU addicts of  Russian gas  have to say over the loss of Dutch and UK lives.

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## Kurgen

FUKK!

RIP

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## thaimeme

> ^ This plane was cruising at 33,000 feet out of the range of all but the most sophisticated of GTAMs. The kind that is only possessed by nation states.
> 
> More then likely this is what was used;
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system


You might surprised as to the weaponry that is secured by groups and individuals of every sort....

And it is out there - in wealth.
Governments don't have a market cornered by any means.

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## koman

> Multiple Ukrainian airplanes and helicopters were shot down in the previous weeks by forces using a Buk missile system



There have been AC's shot down recently, but they were all low level and brought down by shoulder fire type missiles.    It takes a much more sophisticated piece of kit to down a big plane at 33000 ft.    The BUK is the early suspect because it's known that such missiles have been supplied to the separatist forces in Ukraine, by that well know peace broker Vlad Putin.  The BUK is an advanced SAM and well capable of doing the job.

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## taxexile

Air passengers and their luggage spend hours lining up to be probed, x-rayed and searched, all in the name of safety and security, before being shoved onto planes that are then cheerfully sent to fly through war zones.

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## koman

> Air passengers and their luggage spend hours lining up to be probed, x-rayed and searched, all in the name of safety and security, before being shoved onto planes that are then cheerfully sent to fly through war zones.


ICAO had cleared the flight path over Ukraine, as it was not viewed as unusually dangerous for civil aircraft at high altitude.   Many airlines continued to fly the route.  Only the USA told it's pilots to avoid it.   Clearly a bad decision by ICAO as it turns out..

The way the world is shaping up, it will become increasing difficult to fly over a lot of places on normal flight corridors....especially with the ready supply of modern SAM's to "freedom fighters" here and there.

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## Lancelot

Watching ABC (Australian) and a former Australian official (Paul Dob?) is saying that he believes the evidence points to pro Russian rebels firing a Russian made rocket. 

Also some voice clips of the pro Russian rebels asking "Were there weapons on board? Any civilian casualties?

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## koman

> Watching ABC (Australian) and a former Australian official (Paul Dob?) is saying that he believes the evidence points to pro Russian rebels firing a Russian made rocket. 
> 
> Also some voice clips of the pro Russian rebels asking "Were there weapons on board? Any civilian casualties?


The early theory seems to be that pro-Russian separatists shot the plane down thinking it was another transport AC...several of which they have shot down recently, with significant loss of life.

How they could possibly mistake a civil airliner at 33000 ft in a well defined civil aviation corridor, for a military transporter,  is going to take some explanation....as well as the question of Russian supplied high level SAM's capable of such  things.    This could raise the bar significantly in the conflict.

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## Lancelot

> Originally Posted by Lancelot
> 
> 
> Watching ABC (Australian) and a former Australian official (Paul Dob?) is saying that he believes the evidence points to pro Russian rebels firing a Russian made rocket. 
> 
> Also some voice clips of the pro Russian rebels asking "Were there weapons on board? Any civilian casualties?
> 
> 
> The early theory seems to be that pro-Russian separatists shot the plane down thinking it was another transport AC...several of which they have shot down recently, with significant loss of life.
> ...


Yep, the West's response to Russian meddling in Ukraine has been minimal. More importantly, I wonder how the EU will react, its their back yard...

Reports of 150 Dutch on the flight?

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## koman

> I wonder how the EU will react


The way the EU always reacts.  Strongly worded letter to Moscow condemning the shooting down of civil aircraft.  

Over in the US, Obama is out fundraising....but he did mention the event as tragic... not yet confirmed  if there were Americans on board.   Once American casualties are confirmed he may raise it to outrageous, or something of the sort.

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## harrybarracuda



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## Loy Toy

What A FUCKED UP WORLD WE LIVE IN.

Innocent people die for obviously a Government sponsored attack and a poke in the eye for the US.

So fucking sad.

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## Sumocakewalk

Some news reports now indicating 23 Americans were aboard the flight.

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## koman

It would surely have been known right from the start how many Americans were on board; in exactly the same way that the other nationalities and numbers were known.   The flight manifest would show the name and passport ID of everyone who boarded the AC in Amsterdam.

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## zygote1

> Originally Posted by zygote1
> 
> Multiple Ukrainian airplanes and helicopters were shot down in the previous weeks by forces using a Buk missile system
> 
> 
> 
> There have been AC's shot down recently, but they were all low level and brought down by shoulder fire type missiles.    It takes a much more sophisticated piece of kit to down a big plane at 33000 ft.    The BUK is the early suspect because it's known that such missiles have been supplied to the separatist forces in Ukraine, by that well know peace broker Vlad Putin.  The BUK is an advanced SAM and well capable of doing the job.


Guardian reports differently;
_In a series of incidents over the last week, a Ukrainian Sukhoi Su-25 jet was shot down by an air-to-air missile on Wednesday evening. Pro-Russian rebels claimed they had downed a second Su-25 the same day; Ukrainian defence force said it had been hit by a ground-launched missile. On Monday, a Ukrainian military transport was hit by a missile supposedly from Russia; the plane was beyond the range of a MANPAD.

On Thursday, an Associated Press reporter reported seeing a Buk in the east Ukrainian town of Snizhne._
Malaysia Airlines crash: analysts point towards Soviet-era Buk missile system | World news | The Guardian

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## zygote1

> It would surely have been known right from the start how many Americans were on board; in exactly the same way that the other nationalities and numbers were known.   The flight manifest would show the name and passport ID of everyone who boarded the AC in Amsterdam.


_a Ukrainian transport plane had been flying overhead close to the time that the missile was fired at the Malaysia Airlines plane, suggesting that may have been the original target. The transport plane had been trying to relieve a beleaguered Ukraine garrison._

As per Guardian source above.

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## zygote1

> What A FUCKED UP WORLD WE LIVE IN.
> 
> Innocent people die for obviously a Government sponsored attack and a poke in the eye for the US.
> 
> So fucking sad.


I doubt the Americans were targeted. The Dutch and the UK have been  just as   tough on the Russians.  Not that I disagree with you that this was most likely a (Russian) government sponsored attack through its proxy rebel militia and Russian special forces.

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## zygote1

> 


Nice to know that his tyrannical regime will be hosting the 2018 FIFA World Cup.

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## taxexile

If a plane breaks up mid-air at 30000 ft. and passengers are thrown out, do they die whilst still in the air through lack of oxygen, or when they hit the ground?

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## pickel

> If a plane breaks up mid-air at 30000 ft. and passengers are thrown out, do they die whilst still in the air through lack of oxygen, or when they hit the ground?


Considering it is about minus 55 celsius when they are ejected from the aircraft doing 600 mph, they are probably popsicles by the time they hit the ground.

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## pseudolus

Hmm. Two Malaysian planes shot out of the sky. Both bearing a striking resemblance to Vlad the Impalers private plane. 




> “I can say that Putin’s plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100 meters. The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft - 15:44 Moscow time,” a source told the news agency on condition of anonymity.

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## Mr Earl

> If a plane breaks up mid-air at 30000 ft. and passengers are thrown out, do they die whilst still in the air through lack of oxygen, or when they hit the ground?


From the look of the debris I'd guess the plane didn't break up in the air and was more or less whole when it hit the ground. 
Those missiles are guided by a thermal optical lens so most likely one of the engines was hit possibly breaking the wing causing the plane to go more or less straight down depending on how much control the pilots still had.
Most likely everyone was still alive all the way down. It probably took about 2-3 minutes for the plane to hit the ground. Pretty horrible to contemplate.

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## Warrior

Mr Earl, according the BBC, the debris is in a 15 square kilometer area... that sounds like a very BIG plane if it didnt break up, wouldnt you think?

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## Mr Earl

> Mr Earl, according the BBC, the debris is in a 15 square kilometer area... that sounds like a very BIG plane if it didnt break up, wouldnt you think?


 Just looking at the pictures tells me that was a big chunk of the plane right there and the fire indicates there was fuel so some parts of the plane remained intact all the way to the ground. A Boeing 777 isn't some fragile egg shell. The engine/wing which was hit could well be 15 km from the main wreckage. That means the pilots were likely still trying to fly the airplane all the way down to the ground, the way they are trained to.

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## JetsetBkk

And where is the response from the US? Where is the POTUS?

Hint: Busy on a New York fund raiser.

POTUS? More like POS.

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## Lancelot

> Originally Posted by Lancelot
> 
> I wonder how the EU will react
> 
> 
> The way the EU always reacts.  Strongly worded letter to Moscow condemning the shooting down of civil aircraft.  
> 
> Over in the US, Obama is out fundraising....but he did mention the event as tragic... not yet confirmed  if there were Americans on board.   Once American casualties are confirmed he may raise it to outrageous, or something of the sort.


Yeah O was raising money... But my point is that why is this only the US's problem and why aren't the Europeans taking the lead? If the EU isn't willing to make a stand, why should the US be bothered?

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## pseudolus

> And where is the response from the US? Where is the POTUS?


He has his replacement in waiting, Shillery, making the comments. 

MH17: Hillary Clinton says Russian-backed rebels likely shot down plane | World news | theguardian.com




> But Hillary Clinton, the former US secretary of state, was more potent in her statements, saying in a television interview that indications pointed at the Russian-backed side and action was needed to "put [Vladimir] Putin on notice that he has gone too far and we are not going to stand idly by".
> 
> Clinton said in an interview with Charlie Rose on the American PBS network: "The questions I'd be asking is, number one, who could have shot it down? Who had the equipment? It's obviously an anti-aircraft missile. Who could have had the expertise to do that? Because commercial airlines are big targets, but by the time they got over that part of Ukraine they should have been high, so it takes some planning [to target such a plane].
> 
> "And the Ukrainian government has been quick to blame it on terrorists, which is their name for the Russian insurgents. And there does seem to be some growing awareness that it probably had to be Russian insurgents.
> 
> "Now, how we determine that will require some forensics, but then if there is evidence pointing in that direction, the equipment had to have come from Russia. What more the Russians may or may not have done, we don't know.
> 
> "Europeans have to be the ones to take the lead on this. It was a flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur over European territory. There should be outrage in European capitals."


Yup - exactly what was wanted. Coerce Europe into a stand off with Russia, which due to Gas, Europe has no appetite for.

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## harrybarracuda

Good old Sky. "Coming up, more on the missing MH17 flight".

I don't think it's missing you chumps.

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## pickel



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## Necron99

> Originally Posted by taxexile
> 
> 
> If a plane breaks up mid-air at 30000 ft. and passengers are thrown out, do they die whilst still in the air through lack of oxygen, or when they hit the ground?
> 
> 
> From the look of the debris I'd guess the plane didn't break up in the air and was more or less whole when it hit the ground. 
> Those missiles are guided by a thermal optical lens so most likely one of the engines was hit possibly breaking the wing causing the plane to go more or less straight down depending on how much control the pilots still had.
> Most likely everyone was still alive all the way down. It probably took about 2-3 minutes for the plane to hit the ground. Pretty horrible to contemplate.



The Buk, or SA-11 missile system is not guided by a "thermo optic lens" that flies into engines......

It is a radar guided missile that detonates with a radar proximity fuse, it doesn't aim for a particular part of it's target. It's 70 kilo warhead creates a ball of flak which just shreds what it hits.

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## Mr Earl

> Originally Posted by Mr Earl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by taxexile
> ...





> its current design can be fitted with a combined optical tracking system with a thermal camera and a laser range-finder for passive tracking of the target


Buk missile system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And the BBC quotes an eyewitness saying that the airplane hit the ground, broke in two then caught fire.

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## Necron99

> Originally Posted by Necron99
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Mr Earl
> ...


The passive tracking system is for the operators in the ground station, it's not on the missile, it's not a heat seeker.

The fuselage likely broke up in the air, a big chunk of it may have landed and exploded, but the naked bodies raining down on the nearby village suggest it was well in pieces before it hit the ground.

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## pickel

*WARNING* Don't watch it if you are squeamish. 

LiveLeak.com - Ukraine: *VERY GRAPHIC* MH17 crash site- charred bodies lie among burning debris

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## Ronin

> Mr Earl, according the BBC, the debris is in a 15 square kilometer area... that sounds like a very BIG plane if it didnt break up, wouldnt you think?


BBC news last night showed plane exploding on impact with the ground - most likely was largely intact.

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## Ronin

> but the naked bodies raining down on the nearby village suggest it was well in pieces before it hit the ground.


Can you quote you source for this as that, as far as I know, wasn't mentioned on the BBC news - acknowledging I haven't seen all items?

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## Mr Earl

Apparently some village reported it was raining people, pretty horrible!

But a big piece still attached to a wing and fuel tank must have been together to cause the smoking grease spot in published pics.

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## Necron99

> Originally Posted by Necron99
> 
> 
> but the naked bodies raining down on the nearby village suggest it was well in pieces before it hit the ground.
> 
> 
> Can you quote you source for this as that, as far as I know, wasn't mentioned on the BBC news - acknowledging I haven't seen all items?


MH17: Ukraine residents describe seeing bodies and wreckage fall from the sky | Latest News | Latest Breaking News | Daily Star. Simply The Best 7 Days A Week

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## thaimeme

> And where is the response from the US? Where is the POTUS?
> 
> Hint: Busy on a New York fund raiser *for the Israeli/Jewish Lobby* that so encases the American political scene.


 
Yep.....

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## pseudolus

^^ War above everything else. 

Sort of sums it up.

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## OhOh

> Derp


The plane was following directions from the air traffic control. Who runs the Ukrainian air traffic control, the Ukrainians. Do civil airplanes follow air traffic control directions or ignore them?

Why did the Malay plane diverge from previously flown routes yesterday which went around the war zone?  Allegedly for the past 10 flights they had flown around the war zone.



Who authorized the shadowing of the Malay plane by the Ukrainian military plane? 

Who has the capability to shoot down the airplane - The Ukrainian military, the Russian military, the mecenaries on both sides, NATO, the israelis and of course the Iranians (according to NATO the Iranians have the capability to fire their missiles world wide).

Why is their a war going on in the Ukraine at the moment and who is to blame for that?

Who wins from the success of this operation?

With all the fighting, air patrols, by all sides, 24hr radar coverage by ground and airborne systems why hasn't anyone come out with their recordings. I admit there may be various versions of this critical information. 

For the 


> Derp


 please press this button.

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## OhOh

> And where is the response from the US? Where is the POTUS?  Hint: Busy on a New York fund raiser.  POTUS? More like POS.


Last night on channel 4 news at 7pm, their flagship news spot, the main presenter was talking live to a Ukrainian minister. He was told the USPOS was live on a US channel and would be commenting on the situation. The presenter told the Ukranian minister that the USPOS was on TV. The channel cut to the live US station to see the USPOS introducing the local celebrities to the audience.

You could see the channel 4 news presenter shaking his head in disbelief. They cut back to the Ukrainian minister and carried on. 

You wonder why the world ignores the US.

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## jamescollister

Sure there will be lots of press speculation and unnamed people, close to the investigation, giving stories.

Few things seem strange already, witness said, missile went straight up, smoke trail, then bang. 
Why was the system placed under a civil air corridor in the first place.
Does the tracking radar [ another truck ] only pick up primary radar, not secondary radar, transponders.

Sure we have eyes, satellite, watching, a hot spot where NATO may have taken action. How long has the missile[s] been there.

Who gains most from this, US says it was a missile, others probably a missile. Jim

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## Necron99

> Originally Posted by JetsetBkk
> 
> And where is the response from the US? Where is the POTUS?  Hint: Busy on a New York fund raiser.  POTUS? More like POS.
> 
> 
> Last night on channel 4 news at 7pm, their flagship news spot, the main presenter was talking live to a Ukrainian minister. He was told the USPOS was live on a US channel and would be commenting on the situation. The presenter told the Ukranian minister that the USPOS was on TV. The channel cut to the live US station to see the USPOS introducing the local celebrities to the audience.
> 
> You could see the channel 4 news presenter shaking his head in disbelief. They cut back to the Ukrainian minister and carried on. 
> 
> You wonder why the world ignores the US.



What does a Malaysian jet being shot down in the Ukraine have to do with the US?

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## Ronin

> Originally Posted by Ronin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Necron99
> ...


Further reading does seem to confirm that said but I wouldn't put too much faith in the Daily Star - a notorious rag or was.  Not sure of the quality now but still looks rather sensational.

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## OhOh

> What does a Malaysian jet being shot down in the Ukraine have to do with the US?


Absolutely nothing :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## thaimeme

> Originally Posted by OhOh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by JetsetBkk
> ...


American weaponry?
Largest arms dealer in the world - no one even close.

Following the trail. :Smile:

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## OhOh

> What does a Malaysian jet being shot down in the Ukraine have to do with the US?



If you are aware of the catastrophic position of the Ukrainian  military in the SE corner of the Ukraine a great deal. But hey no  mention of the NATO handlers to stand down, no mention of the  reinforcement of the Ukrainian and mercenary armies and air forces and no mention of the government forces to "return to their barracks" a la Libya.

_"Statement by the Press Secretary on Malaysian Airlines Flight 17_ 
_The United States is shocked by the downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17, and we offer our deep condolences to all those who lost loved ones on board. We continue to seek information to determine whether there were any American citizens on board._

_It is critical that there be a full, credible, and unimpeded international investigation as quickly as possible._

_ We urge all concerned – Russia, the pro-Russian separatists, and Ukraine – to support an immediate cease-fire  in order to ensure safe and unfettered access to the crash site for  international investigators and in order to facilitate the recovery of  remains. "_

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## Chittychangchang

This will be the main news story for the next week while taking the attention of another part of the globe.
This happens a lot over recent years.
tin foil hat time.

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## Albert Shagnastier

Fascinating that with the first crash nobody has a clue what happened... but immediately after this one the US is 100% sure that it was Russian sympathisers using a missile.

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Yeah ok.
 :Smile:

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## thaimeme

> This will be the main news story for the next week while taking the attention of another part of the globe.
> This happens a lot over recent years.
> tin foil hat time.


Wagging the dog works better......always has.

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## Necron99

> Fascinating that with the first crash nobody has a clue what happened... but immediately after this one the US is 100% sure that it was Russian sympathisers using a missile.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah ok.



Probably because they have satellites looking at the Ukraine where there is a conflict going on and don't have any looking at Malaysia and the southern pacific where fuck all is going on.

Why do you guys always go for the most convoluted and complex answers to simple issues?

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## Albert Shagnastier

> Probably because they have satellites looking at the Ukraine where there is a conflict going on and don't have any looking at Malaysia and the southern pacific where fuck all is going on.


er.. ok.
 :Smile: 

So they're watching dangerous and volatile hotspots? - makes sense.

Then why the fvck are they flying commercial routes through war torn hot spots?

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## harrybarracuda

> Fascinating that with the first crash nobody has a clue what happened... but immediately after this one the US is 100% sure that it was Russian sympathisers using a missile.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah ok.


If you followed what has been happening in Ukraine instead of reading conspiracy websites about invisible planes you might actually understand why most sensible people drew that conclusion based on the facts available.

Instead you'll be off with your bumboy friend looking for lunatic theories blaming the US or Israel.

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Albert Shagnastier

> sensible people


Harry - you're a sellout.

A sensible sellout

 :Smile:

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## Takeovers

> Then why the fvck are they flying commercial routes through war torn hot spots?


Because up to now planes at common commercial flight cruising altitudes of 10km were quite safe. It took a well trained army squad to shoot it down.

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## Albert Shagnastier

> It took a well trained army squad to shoot it down.


Do you think it was intentional or a case of mistaken identity?

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## Cujo

> Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier
> 
> Then why the fvck are they flying commercial routes through war torn hot spots?
> 
> 
> Because up to now planes at common commercial flight cruising altitudes of 10km were quite safe. It took a well trained army squad to shoot it down.


Also 'they' aren't, it's up to the airlines.

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## Albert Shagnastier

> Also 'they' aren't, it's up to the airlines.


Any idea what percent of them (airlines) have deemed it too dangerous and are re-routing around the area currently?

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## Cujo

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> Also 'they' aren't, it's up to the airlines.
> 
> 
> Any idea what percent of them (airlines) have deemed it too dangerous and are re-routing around the area currently?


At a guess I would say 100%.

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## Albert Shagnastier

> At a guess I would say 100%.


Fair point  :Smile: 

And what about before the plane was shot down?

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## Sumocakewalk

"Ripped our guts again": Family that lost relatives in Flight 370 loses another in Ukraine crash
July 18, 2014

Relatives, friends and colleagues paid tribute Friday to Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 crash victims even before the airline released their names as it scrambled to contact the next of kin of the victims. For one Australian family, the crash represented an almost unbelievable double tragedy.

  Kaylene Mann's brother Rod Burrows and sister-in-law Mary Burrows were on board Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 when it vanished in March. On Friday, Mann found out that her stepdaughter, Maree Rizk, was killed on Flight 17.

Full story here:
Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 victims: Family that lost relatives in MH370 loses another in Ukraine crash - CBS News

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## thaimeme

> Originally Posted by Takeovers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier
> ...


I believe all commercial carriers are governed by IATA, ICAO, Int'l Air Space Laws or other associated bodies.

Commercial or private plans are restricted to fly willy-nilly wherever......this certainly includes obvious restricted zones [ie known war stricken regions].

----------


## Takeovers

> Originally Posted by Takeovers
> 
> It took a well trained army squad to shoot it down.
> 
> 
> Do you think it was intentional or a case of mistaken identity?



Assuming the communication intercepted by Ukraine is correct, they thought they shot down an Antonov of the Ukraine airforce. Seems they even posted it on the net but deleted it after learning they shot down a passenger plane.

So likely a blunder but a major one.

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> I believe all commercial carriers are governed by IATA, ICAO, Int'l Air Space Laws or other associated bodies.  Commercial or private plans are restricted to fly willy-nilly wherever......*this certainly includes obvious restricted zones [ie known war stricken regions]*.


Would the area not currently be classed a "War stricken region"?

----------


## Takeovers

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> Also 'they' aren't, it's up to the airlines.
> 
> 
> Any idea what percent of them (airlines) have deemed it too dangerous and are re-routing around the area currently?



I heard the US airlines did not fly the route because the FAA did not allow it, but the others did. They won't now of course.

----------


## Sumocakewalk

U.S. intelligence confirms pro-Russian rebels shot down Malaysian plane
July 18, 2014

KIEV, Ukraine  A preliminary U.S. intelligence assessment indicates that a Malaysia Airlines plane that crashed Thursday in eastern Ukraine was shot down by an antiaircraft missile fired by pro-Russian separatists, a U.S. official said Friday in Washington.

The attack was likely carried out using an SA-11 surface-to-air missile system, or a similar class of weapon, according to the assessment, the official said. The SA-11 is an early version of the Buk antiaircraft system that has been identified by Ukrainian authorities as the weapon used to bring down the airliner.

The U.S. official cautioned that the assessment is not final and that U.S. analysts are still investigating.

Our assessment is that Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 . . . was likely downed by an SA-11 missile, operated from a separatist-held location in eastern Ukraine, U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Samantha Power told the U.N. Security Council on Friday. 

She added that because of the technical complexity of the SA-11, it was unlikely that the separatists could have effectively operated it on their own. We cannot rule out Russian technical assistance, Power said.

Full story here:
U.S. intelligence confirms pro-Russian rebels shot down Malaysian plane - The Washington Post

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> Assuming the communication intercepted by Ukraine is correct,


Just playing devil's advocate, why would you "assume" it was true?

One source, no face, no banners - no corroboration? - A little fishy maybe?

----------


## thaimeme

> Originally Posted by thaimeme
> 
> I believe all commercial carriers are governed by IATA, ICAO, Int'l Air Space Laws or other associated bodies. Commercial or private plans are restricted to fly willy-nilly wherever......*this certainly includes obvious restricted zones [ie known war stricken regions]*.
> 
> 
> Would the area not currently be classed a "War stricken region"?


Of course it is....

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> U.S. intelligence confirms pro-Russian rebels shot down Malaysian plane
> July 18, 2014
> 
> KIEV, Ukraine  A preliminary U.S. intelligence assessment indicates that a Malaysia Airlines plane that crashed Thursday in eastern Ukraine was shot down by an antiaircraft missile fired by pro-Russian separatists, a U.S. official said Friday in Washington.
> 
> The attack was likely carried out using an SA-11 surface-to-air missile system, or a similar class of weapon, according to the assessment, the official said. The SA-11 is an early version of the Buk antiaircraft system that has been identified by Ukrainian authorities as the weapon used to bring down the airliner.
> 
> The U.S. official cautioned that the assessment is not final and that U.S. analysts are still investigating.
> 
> ...


Oh look - here we go again

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

No logic, no proof and no evidence (at least shown)

Sumo cakewalk - got your number mate  :Smile:

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by thaimeme
> ...


I know mate, just trying to help people get to Logic Lake.

 :Smile:

----------


## Sumocakewalk

> Sumo cakewalk - got your number mate


no problemo, had yours for a while mate  :Smile:

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Takeovers
> ...


What are you babbling about?
Apparently they have not been restricted from flying 'willy nilly' over this zone, apparently it is not a 'restricted' zone.

----------


## Neverna

> U.S. intelligence confirms pro-Russian rebels shot down Malaysian plane
> July 18, 2014
> 
> KIEV, Ukraine — A preliminary U.S. intelligence assessment indicates that a Malaysia Airlines plane that crashed Thursday in eastern Ukraine was shot down by an antiaircraft missile fired by pro-Russian separatists, a U.S. official said Friday in Washington.
> 
> The attack was likely carried out using an SA-11 surface-to-air missile system, or a similar class of weapon, according to the assessment, the official said. The SA-11 is an early version of the Buk antiaircraft system that has been identified by Ukrainian authorities as the weapon used to bring down the airliner.
> 
> The U.S. official cautioned that the assessment is not final and that U.S. analysts are still investigating.
> 
> ...


A preliminary U.S. intelligence assessment 

The attack was likely carried out using an SA-11 surface-to-air missile system, or a similar class of weapon

Our assessment is that Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 . . . was likely ... 


Hardly confirmation

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> I heard the US airlines did not fly the route because the FAA did not allow it, but the others did







> Apparently they have not been restricted from flying 'willy nilly' over this zone, apparently it is not a 'restricted' zone.


Sources gents?

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> The attack was likely carried out using an SA-11 surface-to-air missile system, or a similar class of weapon



"How do you know that?"

"We looked at the receipt"

Bill Hicks - Prodigy.

 :Smile:

----------


## baldrick

they shot it down thinking it was an supply aeroplane

a designated international air corridor should not have passed over an area where high altitude air defense systems are being used to shoot down aircraft

I hope no corridors pass over syria

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by Takeovers
> 
> I heard the US airlines did not fly the route because the FAA did not allow it, but the others did
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're shitting me right?
Either it isn't a restricted Zone or the Malaysian Airlines flight was flying in a restricted zone.

 Frome Roobarbs post #5 


> Virgin and Lufthansa have only just now announced that they will be re-routing flights to avoid Eastern Ukraine and I expect the others will follow suit.


And Helge post #15 


> Airlines were warned in april about using the Ukraine corridor


Assuming these are correct, it is not (or at least wasn't at the time) a 'restricted ' zone.

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> they shot it down thinking it was an supply aeroplane  a designated international air corridor should not have passed over an area where high altitude air defense systems are being used to shoot down aircraft


Indeed - strange oversight to make eh?  :Smile:

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> Assuming these are correct, it is not (or at least wasn't at the time) a 'restricted ' zone.


Thanks.

----------


## OhOh

> Either it isn't a restricted Zone or the Malaysian Airlines flight was flying in a restricted zone.





> Assuming these are correct, it is not (or at least wasn't at the time) a 'restricted ' zone.


The authorities issue warnings or suggestions. it's up to the airlines to instruct their pilots. In addition there are numerous air traffic controllers who would suggest where to fly, again it's up to the pilots of the planes.

Malaysian airways, along with most others, have been in the past ignoring any suggestions and flown the shortest routes -great circle routes between the tow points.

What the Ukrainian air traffic control suggested to the pilots is, at the moment, unknown or not public knowledge. As of last night, after the incident, Thai airways were following their normal, through the war zone, great circle route.

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by baldrick
> 
> they shot it down thinking it was an supply aeroplane  a designated international air corridor should not have passed over an area where high altitude air defense systems are being used to shoot down aircraft
> 
> 
> Indeed - strange oversight to make eh?


Not really, when it was declared an air corridor it was peacetime.

----------


## blue

> they shot it down thinking it was an supply aeroplane


supply what to whom?
it was right at the edge of Ukraine heading to  Russia

----------


## OhOh

> Probably because they have satellites looking at the Ukraine where there is a conflict going on


Most spy satellites travel aroung the earth, hence there are lots of black holes not covered 24hrs a day. However I would suggest the "neutral" belligerents will have plenty of AWACs flying around and to think that the "neutrals" aren't aware of the culprit is laughable.

----------


## OhOh

> supply what to whom? it was right at the edge of Ukraine heading to Russia


There is a hot war going on on that border. Not that anyone has declared it as a war otherwise many countries would have to stop their "assistance".

----------


## Troy

> Would the area not currently be classed a "War stricken region"?


It was, up to 32,000 ft. Now it is for all altitudes. 

It takes a fair bit of military might to take out a plane at altitudes in excess of 30,000 feet and militants were thought not to be in the hands of anything sophisticated enough to be a threat. That assumption has since been revised.

It should be easy to get cheap tickets on MAS at the moment.....

----------


## OhOh

> If you followed what has been happening in Ukraine instead of reading conspiracy websites about invisible planes you might actually understand why most sensible people drew that conclusion based on the facts available.


Any suggestions as to the where the "sensible people" should "read the truth"?




> It should be easy to get cheap tickets on MAS at the moment.....


Thai Airways now flying over Bulgarian Airspace as opposed to Ukrainian.

----------


## OhOh

> militants were thought not to be in the hands of anything sophisticated enough to be a threat.


You are assuming the "militants" did it? it would be nice to understand your logic/evidence.

----------


## thaimeme

> Originally Posted by Troy
> 
> militants were thought not to be in the hands of anything sophisticated enough to be a threat.
> 
> 
> You are assuming the "militants" did it? it would be nice to understand your logic/evidence.


Militants are associated with _bad guys_, naturally - bad activity. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Where, the official establishment are rich with goodness and light, naturally.

Can hardly get around manufactured convention and standard thought process, can we?

----------


## Troy

> Militants are associated with bad guys, naturally - bad activity





> You are assuming the "militants" did it? it would be nice to understand your logic/evidence.


I am not really assuming anything. Officially the Ukraine Government say it wasn't them and ditto the Russians so "militants" it is.

Air corridor was open for flight plans and so there was nothing wrong with MAS being there at the time. Ukraine ATC could have closed air space if they thought it warranted.

Problem is that the Black Sea route is also a danger zone so what do you want them to do...fly westabout?

----------


## OhOh

Allegedly a video of the crash. Not a plane I would want to be in.

----------


## Neverna

^^ Yes. 


*U.S. intelligence confirms pro-Russian rebels shot down Malaysian plane - how the headline was made.* 

Well guys. What brought down the plane?
Don't know boss. Still looking for evidence. 
Listen up guys. The world needs and answer. We will give it to them. Let's start with what we know. A plane came down.
Right boss.
It came down over a war zone. 
Correct boss.
So it must have been a missile 'cuz Saddam Bin Laden hasn't claimed responsibility for a bomb.
Err. OK boss.
Now who are the good guys in the war?
Good guys, boss?
Yes. Who are our allies? 
Oh, Ukraine.
Right. Our allies never do any wrong so it's the bad guys we want. Now who are the bad guys?
Err, well technically ..
The bad guys, friends of China or Russia. You know. Bogey men. 
Oh, right boss. There are some friends of Russia nearby, sir. Rebels.
Right, so now we have the proof. The bad rebel guys did it with a missile. Write up your report and have it on my desk in 5 minutes.

----------


## thaimeme

That surely would be my trusted and objective info source.....the U.S. intelligence community. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Sumocakewalk

> Allegedly a video of the crash. Not a plane I would want to be in.


Looks like it's missing the right wing outboard of the engine, and what remains of the attached portion of the wing and engine is on fire.

----------


## KEVIN2008

Kill two birds with one stone. ..Eliminate some of the worlds top AIDS scientists and make it look like it was Russias fault. pathetic

----------


## Cujo

> Kill two birds with one stone. ..Eliminate some of the worlds top AIDS scientists and make it look like it was Russias fault. pathetic


Christ almighty, here we go.

----------


## patsycat

> Kill two birds with one stone. ..Eliminate some of the worlds top AIDS scientists and make it look like it was Russias fault. pathetic


That is a sick thing to say.  There were kids, families, etc. on there.  Not just the AIDS people.

Reading the press and seeing the photos of the people is just heartbreaking.  RIP to them all.

----------


## OhOh

It appears the flight took a more easterly course through Ukraine and then continued on the great circle route from there. This was unusual for the Malay flights as most previous flights exited Ukraine to the west of this course. This divergence created a flight plan straight over the now hot war zone. AA batteries on all sides therefore saw an unusual flight heading towards them and one allegedly fired.

Why did the pilot take this unusual course or who "advised" him/her to take it?

----------


## KEVIN2008

> Originally Posted by KEVIN2008
> 
> 
> Kill two birds with one stone. ..Eliminate some of the worlds top AIDS scientists and make it look like it was Russias fault. pathetic
> 
> 
> That is a sick thing to say.  There were kids, families, etc. on there.  Not just the AIDS people.
> 
> Reading the press and seeing the photos of the people is just heartbreaking.  RIP to them all.


You have misunderstood the post, calm down...think outside the box.

----------


## pickel

> Why did the Malay plane diverge from previously flown routes yesterday which went around the war zone? Allegedly for the past 10 flights they had flown around the war zone.


They diverted due to bad weather, and since above 30,000 feet was not considered a no fly zone, the pilots would have thought nothing of it.




> You are assuming the "militants" did it? it would be nice to understand your logic/evidence.


Considering that it has only been the "militants" knocking planes out of the sky lately, it seems a logical assumption. 

Why is it so hard to believe that some gung ho rebel with a new weapon mistakens a civilian plane for a military one? In the recording I posted earlier you can hear a rebel ask "what the fuck is a commercial airliner doing flying in a war zone?" They wouldn't have even thought to check.

----------


## rickschoppers

It really doesn't matter what flight pattern the pilot took over the Ukraine. As mentioned before the "no-fly" zone was supposedly set between 30,000-32,000 feet, depending on what source you believe. The airliner was supposed to be at 33,000 feet when shot down. This may become a bone of contention during the investigation since there was not a lot of space between the "no-fly" zone and the path of the Malaysian plane.

Either way, the plane was supposedly shot down by a Russian supplied missile since they were the only ones with that kind of capability. This will also become another talking point during the upcoming investigation. Russia claims it was the Ukraine who shot them down. Has another country supplied the Ukraine with this capability since they did not previously have it? Time will tell.

It is very difficult sorting the truth from all the news stories since some are pro-Russin while others are anti-Russian. It is times like this that I wonder if the public will every know the real truth. I feel very very bad for the families involved.

----------


## rickschoppers

Then there is the intercepted conversation between a rebel and the Russian military officer discussing the passenger plane they shot down. Real, not real, your guess is as good as mine.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukra...pt-356545.html

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Allegedly a video of the crash. Not a plane I would want to be in.


Oh feck! What a horror for those people, I felt/hoped it may have taken out the entire airplane in one shot without anyone even knowing what hit them but it obviously flew some time before crashing and destruction.. Turns my stomach, what a horrid way to go..  :Sad:

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by OhOh
> 
> 
> Allegedly a video of the crash. Not a plane I would want to be in.
> 
> 
> Looks like it's missing the right wing outboard of the engine, and what remains of the attached portion of the wing and engine is on fire.


I don't see that, I see outlines of the right wing outboard of the engine, it seems just the engine (point of impact) is on fire and probably missing, it seems the plane is incredibly in tact, in this case that is not a good thing..  :Sad:

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by patsycat
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by KEVIN2008
> ...


Still, the delivery was poor form..

----------


## helge

> Problem is that the Black Sea route is also a danger zone so what do you want them to do...fly westabout?


A bit to the north ?

I read that Asiana, KAL and Qantas opted out of the warned against corridor some time ago

----------


## KEVIN2008

Sadly over the coming weeks and months the dead will be ignored in the rush to blame.

The Ukrainians will blame the rebels or Russia
The Russians will blame Ukraine
The rebels will say and do what Russia tells them.

No matter how compelling the evidence ....even if it had Vladimir Putin Riding the Missile the other side will claim conspiracy and it will be a big long blame game with none of us being the wiser.

The Shills on both sides are already going into overdrive.

----------


## Mr Earl

> Oh feck! What a horror for those people, I felt/hoped it may have taken out the entire airplane in one shot without anyone even knowing what hit them but it obviously flew some time before crashing and destruction.. Turns my stomach, what a horrid way to go..


It looks like the pilots are still trying to fly the airplane, pretty damn scary stuff.

----------


## sabang

Deja Vu? 26 years ago, to the month.

_USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian civilian passenger jetliner, Iran Air Flight 655, over the Persian Gulf on 3 July 1988, killing all 290 civilians on board (including 38 non-Iranians and 66 children), sparking an international incident between the Islamic Republic of Iran and the United States of America._
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Vincennes_(CG-49) 

Young Vladimir-

Critics will never forget what George Bush, Sr. said in 1988 while running for President: "I will never apologize for the United States — I don't care what the facts are."

----------


## bsnub

I can see the usual tinfoil fuckwits have poisoned this thread with their nonsense. Jumping right on their knees to suck off the Russian bear. Russia the poor victim everyone blames. Even though, the evidence that Russia is involved in every aspect of this conflict continues to grow the nutters still refuse to see it.

It really is useless to have a conversation with such deluded morons.

----------


## leemo

> Think there was over 20 Americans on board ,,, watch this space


Oh yeah, nothing to see, Bambi never wets himself in public.

----------


## leemo

> Airlines were warned in april about using the Ukraine corridor


I didn't know that. But avoiding the corridor means using extra fuel, and MA is already crippled financially in no small part through its own SEA understanding of frugality.

----------


## leemo

> Can you imagine all the spare GTAMs around the world and the thousands of daily flights criss-crossing the globe.
> 
> Do the math.


Takes a while, but in time the world will learn that a rogue state when ignored or appeased can evolve into far worse than a tantrum throwing nuisance. 

They need to be addressed, all of them and ruthlessly, but this will not happen until one comes up with something to make 911 seem like a schoolyard prank. Then perhaps enough people in the civilised world will wake up from their decades long snooze, to elect strong leaders.

----------


## leemo

> Originally Posted by bsnub
> 
> 
> ^ This plane was cruising at 33,000 feet out of the range of all but the most sophisticated of GTAMs. The kind that is only possessed by nation states.
> 
> More then likely this is what was used;
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system
> 
> ...


Not a lot will happen. Assuming it was Russia as the evidence stands, Putin has plausible deniability on his side, and by the time it is conclusively proven that his people fcuked up a whole slew of new stuff will be on the front pages.

----------


## koman

After watching that video of the AC on fire, it looks like it came all the way down from 33000 ft with the port wing on fire. (big fire). 

   The earliest video on the net showed a big explosion on the ground and then a big plume of black smoke rising.....which would indicate that the plane exploded and burned when it hit the ground. 

  Looks like the fuselage was completely intact on the way down, so the passengers and crew may well have lived through that horror for quite some time.

----------


## leemo

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Lancelot
> ...


For the West's (America's) response, there may be a clue in Obama's pre-election whispered assurance of 'flexibility' to Medvedev.

----------


## leemo

> If a plane breaks up mid-air at 30000 ft. and passengers are thrown out, do they die whilst still in the air through lack of oxygen, or when they hit the ground?


Page 2 of 7 so probably answered already, but I believe from that height they'll hit the ground unconscious or dead.

----------


## peterpan

> Deja Vu? 26 years ago, to the month.
> 
> _USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian civilian passenger jetliner, Iran Air Flight 655, over the Persian Gulf on 3 July 1988, killing all 290 civilians on board (including 38 non-Iranians and 66 children), sparking an international incident between the Islamic Republic of Iran and the United States of America._
> USS Vincennes (CG-49) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
> 
> Young Vladimir-
> 
> Critics will never forget what George Bush, Sr. said in 1988 while running for President: "I will never apologize for the United States  I don't care what the facts are."


 you won't win many (right wingers) with that post sab, thanks for pointing out, that, there is no right or wrong, only winners and losers, sadly generally only the innocents in the public are ALWAYS  the real losers.

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> Deja Vu? 26 years ago, to the month.
> 
> _USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian civilian passenger jetliner, Iran Air Flight 655, over the Persian Gulf on 3 July 1988, killing all 290 civilians on board (including 38 non-Iranians and 66 children), sparking an international incident between the Islamic Republic of Iran and the United States of America._
> USS Vincennes (CG-49) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
> 
> Young Vladimir-
> 
> Critics will never forget what George Bush, Sr. said in 1988 while running for President: "I will never apologize for the United States  I don't care what the facts are."


Why did the US do that?

----------


## leemo

> 


Says it all at 2.05: What was it doing over the territory of Ukraine? 

Response: Well then it was bringing spies. Why the hell were they flying. This is war going on.

*If* as a previous poster said airlines were warned in April to avoid that corridor, and *if* the warning has not since been revoked, that plane had no right being where it was. 

Could be the West still need to learn that people can get hurt running the gauntlet through a war zone.

----------


## rickschoppers

^^
Nobody will every know, so to try and explain, is a waste of time.

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> "Why the hell were they flying. This is war going on?"


So obviously no other commercial flights were flying through the corridor - if that's what the guy says AND the video is legit.

So if no one else was flying through there due to the warning - why did Malaysia Airlines (ESPECIALLY AS IT LOST A PLANE A FEW MONTHS AGO)?

Stinks.

----------


## leemo

> *WARNING* Don't watch it if you are squeamish. 
> 
> LiveLeak.com - Ukraine: *VERY GRAPHIC* MH17 crash site- charred bodies lie among burning debris


Gruesome and tragic, but Obama and Europe both know it doesn't change the game plan.

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> Nobody will every know so to try and explain is a waster of time.


So no one ever asked?

Bizarre.

----------


## rickschoppers

> Originally Posted by leemo
> 
> "Why the hell were they flying. This is war going on?"
> 
> 
> So obviously no other commercial flights were flying through the corridor - if that's what the guy says AND the video is legit.
> 
> So if no one else was flying through there due to the warning - why did Malaysia Airlines (ESPECIALLY AS IT LOST A PLANE A FEW MONTHS AGO)?
> 
> Stinks.


Decide for yourself.

BBC News - Who, what, why: How often do planes fly over conflict zones?

----------


## leemo

> Originally Posted by Takeovers
> 
> It took a well trained army squad to shoot it down.
> 
> 
> Do you think it was intentional or a case of mistaken identity?


Both. It was obviously shot down intentionally, and according to the audio at 2.05 on the video posted earlier it was clearly a case of mistaken identity.

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

^^404 - dead link.

----------


## rickschoppers

^
Sorry, missed one digit. Try it now...

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Takeovers
> ...


Would seem the sensible answer at this point.

But again, as the soldier points out "Why is it flying over a war zone FFS?" leads us to believe that this was not a regular occurrence does it not?

If lots of planes were flying over - he would not of said that would he?

Malaysia Airlines is finished - 100%

----------


## leemo

> U.S. intelligence confirms pro-Russian rebels shot down Malaysian plane
> July 18, 2014
> 
> KIEV, Ukraine  A preliminary U.S. intelligence assessment indicates that a Malaysia Airlines plane that crashed Thursday in eastern Ukraine was shot down by an antiaircraft missile fired by pro-Russian separatists, a U.S. official said Friday in Washington.
> 
> The attack was likely carried out using an SA-11 surface-to-air missile system, or a similar class of weapon, according to the assessment, the official said. The SA-11 is an early version of the Buk antiaircraft system that has been identified by Ukrainian authorities as the weapon used to bring down the airliner.
> 
> The U.S. official cautioned that the assessment is not final and that U.S. analysts are still investigating.
> 
> ...


No doubt national security rears its ugly head, and the US admin cannot reveal all it knows because that might give away intel sources/capability.

----------


## peterpan

Don't get your knickers in a twist rick, some on the ball mod deleted it

----------


## rickschoppers

^^^

You obviously did not read the link did you?

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> Decide for yourself.  BBC News - Who, what, why: How often do planes fly over conflict zones?


Ok - got it, cheers.

----------


## leemo

> Originally Posted by Takeovers
> 
> Assuming the communication intercepted by Ukraine is correct,
> 
> 
> Just playing devil's advocate, why would you "assume" it was true?
> 
> One source, no face, no banners - no corroboration? - A little fishy maybe?


Assuming, in the used context, is the equivalent of IF. 

Early on in any situation there is a certain amount of confusion as info is pumped out by media and official sources that may or may not reflect actual events. But surely you know that already.

----------


## leemo

> Originally Posted by thaimeme
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier
> ...


No such thing as Logic Lake, Shagmeister, logic doesn't always apply in real life situations. So, if we were waiting to wade into your Logic Lake there would be no thread. 

But you already knew that, didn't you?

----------


## leemo

> Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier
> 
> Would the area not currently be classed a "War stricken region"?
> 
> 
> It was, up to 32,000 ft. Now it is for all altitudes. 
> 
> It takes a fair bit of military might to take out a plane at altitudes in excess of 30,000 feet and militants were thought not to be in the hands of anything sophisticated enough to be a threat. That assumption has since been revised.
> 
> It should be easy to get cheap tickets on MAS at the moment.....


Stay safe, stay domestic.

----------


## baldrick

> it's just that gays are well known to be unlucky ....


with your expertise in this area , which are the least lucky - the givers or the takers ?

and at what age did you first find that you were a lover of cock ?

----------


## leemo

> It really doesn't matter what flight pattern the pilot took over the Ukraine. As mentioned before the "no-fly" zone was supposedly set between 30,000-32,000 feet, depending on what source you believe. The airliner was supposed to be at 33,000 feet when shot down. This may become a bone of contention during the investigation since there was not a lot of space between the "no-fly" zone and the path of the Malaysian plane.
> 
> Either way, the plane was supposedly shot down by a Russian supplied missile since they were the only ones with that kind of capability. This will also become another talking point during the upcoming investigation. Russia claims it was the Ukraine who shot them down. Has another country supplied the Ukraine with this capability since they did not previously have it? Time will tell.
> 
> It is very difficult sorting the truth from all the news stories since some are pro-Russin while others are anti-Russian. It is times like this that I wonder if the public will every know the real truth. I feel very very bad for the families involved.


Fair points, but I can't see the supplier of weapons being responsible for their use or even the end user, which may well be unintended and a contractual breach. 

If that were the case, US, EU, Russia, China and Israel would have a virtual monopoly of all crimes involving weapons, and even car manufacturers would have some explaining to do.

----------


## koman

The only authority that had issued "no fly" instructions was the US FAA.  

  ICAO  had not declared it a no fly zone....and lots of flights were still using the corridor, although some airlines had decided not to use it. 

  The route was considered safe enough because it's a heavily travelled air corridor...notwithstanding the fact that military aircraft have been shot down in East Ukraine recently, high altitude civil airliners were thought to be OK. 

   Bad call as it turns out...but it's not easy to assess the degree of trigger happiness and sheer fucking stupidity amongst the local militiamen who have been  given some serious military grade weapons by their Russian sponsor,   

   The stipulation was that flights should maintain an altitude of 32000 ft or higher.   MA17 was operating within the guidelines.  Pilots routinely deviate from their precise course to avoid an area of turbulence so there is nothing sinister about this flight being where it was.    The whole incident may just be a result of a series of tragic mistakes...both in the air and on the ground.

   It is yet to be determined how and why it was mistaken for an arms carrying cargo plane  (which seems to be the case) ...but in due course it probably will come to light, although we have folks on this board who would not believe that crows are black, or that water is composed of Hydrogen and Oxygen..... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 


Already we have this thread degenerating into doghouse material,  because  people just jump in and post bollocks without even bothering to read back a bit to see that what they are writing has been said before, over and over.  We are just going around in circles, and  ENT has not even joined in yet.

----------


## patsycat

All you lot seem to think about is who shot the plane down.  You have no simpathy at all about the familes who, now at this minute, are grieving for their loved ones.  There were 295 people on that plane.  that means lots and lots of grieving people.  

Let's do the maths - 295 x 2 x 4 etc. equals lots of people.  Get those people home to be able to be put to rest and then get the who did it or who dunnit sorted out.

If a family member of mine was on that plane, i would want to have peace that he or she was home.  

The looting of the suitcases etc, is horrible.

Sorry, seeing the happy family photos of kids and people that i now know are dead really gets to me.  There were 80 children on that plane.  Never to have a life.  I have a candle lit on my windowsill, as have a lot of other people in Europe.  

RIP.

----------


## rickschoppers

I guess it is just logic. If Russia had not supplied the missiles to the rebels, then allegedly this would not have happened. This is not the only reason to point the finger at Russia. I would think there are some Russian advisers assisting the rebels and may have even ordered them to fire the missile or even fired it themselves.

We still are not certain of what missile type brought down the plane, so it is still conjecture at this point.

----------


## leemo

> Originally Posted by leemo
> 
> "Why the hell were they flying. This is war going on?"
> 
> 
> So obviously no other commercial flights were flying through the corridor - if that's what the guy says AND the video is legit.
> 
> So if no one else was flying through there due to the warning - why did Malaysia Airlines (ESPECIALLY AS IT LOST A PLANE A FEW MONTHS AGO)?
> 
> Stinks.


There's no obvious about it, nastyfcuker, if you I are both speeding and one of us ends up in a wreck does that 'obviously' mean the other was not speeding?

----------


## Lancelot

From The Guardian:

_Around 200-300 of the daily flights on the route had diverted elsewhere in recent months, according to FlightRadar24 data. However, about 100 aircraft a day from more than 60 different airlines were seen in the region over the past week. A Singapore Airlines jet from Copenhagen to Singapore was flying within 20 miles of flight MH17 at the time of the crash, according to the FlightRadar24 data. Philip Plantholt, of FlightRadar24, said: "There were for sure commercial aircraft within a 25km radius."_

----------


## Seekingasylum

I think it evident, even to the most pusillanimous of febrile governments anywhere in the world, that Russia is entirely responsible for this murderous attack.

The eastern Ukraine insurrection by indigenous Russians has been orchestrated, funded and supplied by Putin. Their so-called militias which invaded the Crimea were Russian forces. The weaponry supplied to the " secessionists " is Russian. Russia has now supplied their proxy forces in eastern Ukraine with a military anti- aircraft missile capability which could only be operated by trained personnel since such hardware is entirely directed by complex guidance systems. Someone has screwed up badly but that is irrelevant. The eastern Ukraine is effectively Russian and they must now pay.

The Malaysian government will be aware of this since western intelligence has now established there is no doubt it was the Russians who were responsible - Putin's attempts to blame Ukraine verges upon the cynical Communist deceit of the 1960s and has been roundly condemned for the puerile rubbish it is.

One hopes the Malaysians will now act decisively and with it drag along their ASEAN colleagues. Razak must withdraw his ambassador from Moscow immediately and boot the Russkies out of Malaysia, deny any Russian entry to his country, ban all trade with them and prevail upon ASEAN to act similarly. 

The EU must also introduce immediate sanctions. The US, finally after the absurd nonsense about the " axis of evil " have re-awakened to the real threat that is Russia, is already cranking the pressure up. Indeed, they should now advise the Cubans that the day the Russians open their spy base there will be the day Cuba goes back to the Stone Age.

Putin wants to take Russia back to the glory days when their wretched communism overshadowed half the world. 

The world must act now and not dither. Russians only understand brute strength and will perceive dilatory politicking as weakness.

Russians are scum. 

I shall impose my own sanctions upon the swine in Pattaya where I shall refuse to speak to them or go to their restaurants. I may even say that Putin is an irredeemably deficient, uncouth latent deviant with close set eyes. That'll tell the buggers.

----------


## koman

> From The Guardian:
> 
> _Around 200-300 of the daily flights on the route had diverted elsewhere in recent months, according to FlightRadar24 data. However, about 100 aircraft a day from more than 60 different airlines were seen in the region over the past week. A Singapore Airlines jet from Copenhagen to Singapore was flying within 20 miles of flight MH17 at the time of the crash, according to the FlightRadar24 data. Philip Plantholt, of FlightRadar24, said: "There were for sure commercial aircraft within a 25km radius."_


Exactly what I've said in post 164, and previously way back near the start of the thread....and still people keep going on and on.   These threads would run a lot better if more people spend time reading and paying attention,  instead of just posting bullshit.... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## koman

> Putin wants to take Russia back to the glory days when their wretched communism overshadowed half the world.


Putin is and always has been an ultra-nationalist.  I think however he would be more inclined to reconstituting the old Tsarist style empire rather than the Soviet version. 

Once Thailand calls in the Russian ambassador and threatens to refuse entry to the St. Petersburg working class tourists, I'm sure Putin will back down quickly.    This could cause a shortage of quality whores in some places if it goes badly.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> 
> 
> Oh feck! What a horror for those people, I felt/hoped it may have taken out the entire airplane in one shot without anyone even knowing what hit them but it obviously flew some time before crashing and destruction.. Turns my stomach, what a horrid way to go.. 
> 
> 
> It looks like the pilots are still trying to fly the airplane, pretty damn scary stuff.


Yeah that's what I see too.. When you think about it what would you do? Dive it straight into the ground after shutting off all oxygen to lessen the horror and time of suffrage? Possibly the dive _MIGHT_ put out the flames though not likely and even if it did what chance of recovery after the fact needing a strong wing structure to level off again and to fly to the nearest destination?

----------


## taxexile

> The EU must also introduce immediate sanctions.


We all know the Europeans would never do such a thing, they love Russian gas too much, and the French are building 2 huge warships for Boris, at a value to the French economy of nearly 2 billion euros. Cant see the French reneging on that deal, can you? 

Only America has the balls to confront the scumbag Putin, and these days with that weakling Obama at the helm, they dont much care what happens to duplicitous Europe so long as they are OK.

The weaker America becomes, the stronger the worlds schoolyard bullies become.

----------


## baldrick

> A Singapore Airlines jet from Copenhagen to Singapore was flying within 20 miles of flight MH17 at the time of the crash, according to the FlightRadar24 data. Philip Plantholt, of FlightRadar24, said: "There were for sure commercial aircraft within a 25km radius."


and if I was an Ukranian military Antonov pilot who had to fly in the area I would be mingling with them for cover

----------


## sabang

> The EU must also introduce immediate sanctions.


Then they can look forward to a very cold winter.

----------


## zygote1

> Originally Posted by Troy
> 
> militants were thought not to be in the hands of anything sophisticated enough to be a threat.
> 
> 
> You are assuming the "militants" did it? it would be nice to understand your logic/evidence.


Well, let's look at  some established facts that apply to the situation right now;
1. The Russian allied rebels/militia, or for those who want to cling to simplistic  descriptions, "freedom fighters" control the area.
2. This heavily armed group  refused to allow The Ukrainian civil aviation authority access. They have also  blocked access to international observers. As reported by Deutsche Weekly, _A team of 25 observers tried on Friday to gain access to the crash site, which stretches over several kilometers. The area is controlled by pro-Russian separatists who had previously agreed to allow access. The OSCE said there were indications that debris and material had been moved and the site had not been sealed off._
3. The Russians have refused to ask/order their rebel friends to  co-operate and have instead launched  a tangent of rhetoric.

The very fact that the rebels are disrupting the investigation speaks volumes. It is entirely up to the Europeans now. This is primarily a European mass murder. The USA really doesn't have much of an obligation to act first as its dual national was traveling on a Dutch passport, and did not identify as an American on the flight manifest, so technically no American victims.(Although, that's a minor  issue.) However,  2/3rd were Dutch with Belgian, UK and German  adding to the EU  murder victim list. It is up to the EU to  speak out and to do something. Let's see if the  European MPs can tear themselves away from their social events and grow a set of   balls.
After the  Russians  shot  down the KAL 007, Aeroflot  lost access to the USA for three years. Will the EU now ban Russians from their airspace? Will the Europeans  avoid Russian airspace and not pay the fees to Russia that go with such transit?
The Australians, Indonesians and Malaysians who have lost many of their nationals can now complain to the UN and watch see what happens. Russia has its veto, and its voting supporters  in Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia, Somalia and  Syria will rally around their benefactor.

----------


## taxexile

European politicians are small minded and pompous cowards,  interested only in feathering their nests and trade, taking a moral stance, especially if will cost money, is out of the question.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> European politicians are small minded and pompous cowards,  interested only in feathering their nests and trade, taking a moral stance, especially if will cost money, is out of the question.


Don't be so gullible.

ALL politicians are small minded and pompous cowards.

You also forget self-serving and eminently corruptible.

----------


## zygote1

> Originally Posted by thegent
> 
> The EU must also introduce immediate sanctions.
> 
> 
> Then they can look forward to a very cold winter.


It might be the Russians looking forward to a very cold winter if sanctions are imposed. It is  quite likely that many countries may say nyet to Russians. Although, I'm sure that Thailand won't  join in. The mobsters who sojourn in Pattaya and  Phuket have enough dosh to convince  our erstwhile army leaders of the benefits of Russian visitors.

In any case, only some Europeans, mostly the former east bloc members including the Baltic states. Finland, Greece and Poland are  very dependent.  Germany, Austria, and Italy and to a lesser extent France & Belgium, also rely on Russian energy. However, for  Scandinavia, Netherlands,  and UK, they are free of the Russian petro opium. 
Interesting enough, Poland has had the hardest line on the Russian expansionist  policies. Brave Poland who suffered at the hands of the Stalinist invaders and who was betrayed by  Germany,  gets to watch Germany cosy up to Russia again. No wonder the Polish are so angry. Once again, the defense of freedom will again require the heroic leadership of western Europe to rein in the barbaric savagery of bullies.

----------


## zygote1

> Originally Posted by taxexile
> 
> 
> European politicians are small minded and pompous cowards,  interested only in feathering their nests and trade, taking a moral stance, especially if will cost money, is out of the question.
> 
> 
> Don't be so gullible.
> 
> ALL politicians are small minded and pompous cowards.
> ...


Those politicians are often a good reflection of the electorate.

----------


## titan

> Russians awoke on Friday to news reports that bumbling Ukrainian troops had shot down a Malaysia Airlines (MAS:MK)  jet after mistaking it for President Vladimir Putins official plane.  
> 
> Another theory: The Ukrainians intentionally shot down the jet at close  range as a planned provocation. Or maybe there wasnt a crash at all,  and the bodies were those of passengers from Malaysia Air flight M370,  which disappeared in March.


Malaysian Air Shooting: Russian News Media Tries Crazy Theories - Businessweek

----------


## Seekingasylum

Essentially, most Russians are just white Africans.

----------


## Seekingasylum

Indeed, Zygote, the Poles I know detest the Russians more than Fritzie. Absolutely hate the fuckers and it seems this detestation has passed onto younger generations. 

Can't blame them, I suppose. Forty years of occupation and exploitation by Russian scumbags would piss off most folk. 

It's their lumpen, misery soaked crudeness and bovine clodhoppiness I hate. The young women can look drop dead gorgeous but then they all morph into ghastly babushkas with arses the size of Gibraltar. 

Ghastly folk.

----------


## patsycat

Light a candle in your home for those poor people who died, please.

It doesn't take much, it is not religious. Everybody has a candle lying around.  I did it for the lost plane, i have done it for friends etc.  Just a little touch.

Here in Geneva, last evening i went for a wee walk.  There were so many candles lit on windowsills.  Nothing religious, nothing nasty, nothing said, just to have a thought for those lost and those grieving.

Just ordinary people who watch the news and have feelings.

----------


## titan

> Former Cuban President Fidel Castro says the Ukrainian government is  at fault for Thursday’s Malaysia Airlines passenger plane crash.
> 
>  In a short statement published Friday in Cuban state media, Castro  says the jet was flying over territory controlled by “the warmongering  government” of Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko.


http://asiancorrespondent.com/124896...etliner-crash/

----------


## VocalNeal

> European politicians are small minded and pompous cowards,  interested only in feathering their nests and trade, taking a moral stance, especially if will cost money, is out of the question.


Isn't that why they get voted in? To increase the quality of living for their electorate? Not to solve the world's problem.

----------


## Takeovers

> Former Cuban President Fidel Castro says the Ukrainian government is  at fault for Thursdays Malaysia Airlines passenger plane crash.
> 
>  In a short statement published Friday in Cuban state media, Castro  says the jet was flying over territory controlled by the warmongering  government of Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko.
> 			
> 		
> 
> http://asiancorrespondent.com/124896...etliner-crash/



Surely this is unrelated to the cancellation of old debt from Soviet Era by Putin a few days ago.

----------


## patsycat

Have you lit your candle? Even if its during the day.

----------


## Cujo

> Light a candle in your home for those poor people who died, please.
> 
> It doesn't take much, it is not religious. Everybody has a candle lying around.  I did it for the lost plane, i have done it for friends etc.  Just a little touch.


To what end?
Sentimental twaddle that achieves nothing.
Do you light candles every time a plane/boat/train crashes?

----------


## taxexile

> Not to solve the world's problem.


the worlds problems can soon become your problems unless steps are taken to reign in the rogues.

----------


## Sumocakewalk

> Have you lit your candle? Even if its during the day.


Done. Had to dig around the house to find one as the wife is away at the moment.

It's a nice gesture in remembrance of the poor souls who lost their lives in this tragedy.

----------


## Troy

> and if I was an Ukranian military Antonov pilot who had to fly in the area I would be mingling with them for cover


Not easy since they don't fly high enough or fast enough....

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by patsycat
> 
> 
> Have you lit your candle? Even if its during the day.
> 
> 
> Done. Had to dig around the house to find one as the wife is away at the moment.
> 
> It's a nice gesture in remembrance of the poor souls who lost their lives in this tragedy.


 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  FFS.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Deja Vu? 26 years ago, to the month.
> 
> _USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian civilian passenger jetliner, Iran Air Flight 655, over the Persian Gulf on 3 July 1988, killing all 290 civilians on board (including 38 non-Iranians and 66 children), sparking an international incident between the Islamic Republic of Iran and the United States of America._
> USS Vincennes (CG-49) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
> 
> Young Vladimir-
> 
> Critics will never forget what George Bush, Sr. said in 1988 while running for President: "I will never apologize for the United States  I don't care what the facts are."


I knew it was only a matter of time, so since it's come up now the US can no longer be vilified as the worst civilian disaster in recent record.. The thing is the technology of today is so far ahead of that time, there no longer really is any reasoning for it happening, so the current feck up trumps that accident by a long stretch.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by taxexile
> 
> 
> If a plane breaks up mid-air at 30000 ft. and passengers are thrown out, do they die whilst still in the air through lack of oxygen, or when they hit the ground?
> 
> 
> Page 2 of 7 so probably answered already, but I believe from that height they'll hit the ground unconscious or dead.


Unfortunately no reason to think that unless the cabin was heavily infiltrated with smoke. The space shuttle Challenger exploded and broke up on launch and it was later determined that the speculation that the astronauts had died during the explosion but it turned out they drowned and were alive upon impact (water in the lungs). Also divers dive from heights that high and though not in an aircraft land just fine. One would hope the pilots shut off the oxygen to cause them to pass out if there was time to think that deeply. Seems there was plenty of time but no doubt they were a bit occupied, I'd like to think they had the chance to do so though for my own piece of mind..

----------


## FloridaBorn

> All you lot seem to think about is who shot the plane down.  You have no simpathy at all about the familes who, now at this minute, are grieving for their loved ones.  There were 295 people on that plane.  that means lots and lots of grieving people.  
> 
> Let's do the maths - 295 x 2 x 4 etc. equals lots of people.  Get those people home to be able to be put to rest and then get the who did it or who dunnit sorted out.
> 
> If a family member of mine was on that plane, i would want to have peace that he or she was home.  
> 
> The looting of the suitcases etc, is horrible.
> 
> Sorry, seeing the happy family photos of kids and people that i now know are dead really gets to me.  There were 80 children on that plane.  Never to have a life.  I have a candle lit on my windowsill, as have a lot of other people in Europe.  
> ...


Sorry Patsy but now I don't see your cause. The only thing ANYONE here can do now or even prior to the tragedy was to talk about it.. Or if this were TV we could all get in line, bow in remorse and post our redundant condolences for 50 pages and all die of boredom without a single important piece of conversation possibly leading to a conclusion.

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> Originally Posted by Albert Nastyfcuker
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by leemo
> ...


What bit don't you get?

----------


## leemo

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by taxexile
> ...


Voters are generally uninformed, fickle, gullible and simple minded, while their leaders are those that best exploit these traits.

----------


## Necron99

> Originally Posted by leemo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by taxexile
> ...


Skydivers don't jump from 10,000 meters unless they are in a pressure suit. It's -40 degrees c and there is basically no air.
It's likely flak would have punctured the airframe and depressurized it, but a few minutes is not a long time for them to pass out.
A terrible end that most would have endured I suspect.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by leemo
> ...


I know that but it is done and it is outside of an aircraft the point is valid.. Airplanes have oxygen masks that fall to breath with in case of depressurization remember? And they would not be at 30,000 feet long enough to freeze. Whether anyone would use them is another point but I suspect that many would think they may still have a chance to survive as long as the craft was flying, damaged or not so they'd likely still try to survive. Once at 10,000 feet they'd no longer need the masks, but at any rate by that point it was likely unrecoverable by any measure.

My speculation is that the pilot was diving in an attempt to help blow out the flames, hoping he would be able to recover not knowing exactly how much damage there was, nearly to the end the plane looked in control for the most part, no spinning, level, in terms if right side up and flying straight, nothing but a steep dive and when he tried to recover is when it crashed given the severe wing structure damage, and apparently only one engine, it probably failed in that process. Again all speculation and theory but plausible none the less.

----------


## Lancelot

How about it, can Tony wup Vlad's ass? I'd like to see this one  :Smile: 

*Mr. Abbott refused to rule out banning Russian President Vladimir Putin from G20 talks in Australia in November if he failed to cooperate with the investigation.*

Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak’s step-grandmother killed on Flight MH17 | News.com.au

----------


## Lancelot

According to the Russian Media:

*Another theory: The Ukrainians intentionally shot down the jet at close range as a planned provocation. Or maybe there wasnt a crash at all, and the bodies were those of passengers from Malaysia Air flight M370, which disappeared in March.*

You couldn't make this stuff up.

The Netherlands, Malaysia and Australia lost the most citizens on this avoidable tragedy. NATO should support those countries sending in their respective Special Forces to secure the crash site and allow teams of International Investigators to determine what happened.

If the Russians are culpable, then heavily sanction their economy -and if Russia continues to assist the rebels- assist the Ukraine with advanced military weapons systems to the degree that Russia stops supporting the rebels.

It happened in Europe and the Europeans can handle it if they choose to. Russia needs Europe's cash as much as Europe needs Russia's gas.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Or maybe there wasn’t a crash at all, and the bodies were those of passengers from Malaysia Air flight M370, which disappeared in March.


 Oh boy! This ones going to light up the conspiracy theorists..  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  MH17 was just a black shadow drone and they just burned up and added the bodies to the crash site and dumped debris and bodies from a plane to spread them across the terrain. Yep, it's all there. After all the US government managed 3 planes and multiple buildings in the middle of the largest city in the US, certainly a single plane by whomever? Is a piece of cake..  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## thaimeme

> It happened in Europe and the Europeans can handle it if they choose to.


But they won't.
The Russians know that the EU [and other Euro dependencies] is a weak unworthy hand-sitting collective. Charlatans.

Russian natural resources and trade are far more important to Europe/EU than the talk that is conveniently spewed.

----------


## Troy

> My speculation is that the pilot was diving in an attempt to help blow out the flames, hoping he would be able to recover not knowing exactly how much damage there was, nearly to the end the plane looked in control for the most part, no spinning, level, in terms if right side up and flying straight, nothing but a steep dive and when he tried to recover is when it crashed given the severe wing structure damage, and apparently only one engine, it probably failed in that process. Again all speculation and theory but plausible none the less.


I think the tail was blown off and those in the aft section rained upon the earth. The rest were passengers in a flying brick who would have suffered in a way that I do not even wish to contemplate. The reports from the Lockerbie incident suggest some passengers were alive until impact with the ground. I think this plane may have been even more intact, albeit uncontrollable.

Incidentally, the vids that have been circulating have been rumoured to be fakes....

----------


## Necron99

THE Russian government has allegedly been busted editing a Wikipedia entry on the Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 disaster to blame Ukraine.

A Twitter bot which monitors edits made on the site by Russian government IP addresses picked up the changes which were made on a page listing civil aviation accidents, the UKs Telegraph reported.

The original entry stated that the plane was shot down by terrorists of the self-proclaimed Donetsk Peoples Republic with Buk system missiles, which the terrorists received from the Russian Federation.

It was changed to read: the plane [flight MH17] was shot down by Ukrainian soldiers.

The Twitter bot issued this alert:

Статья в Википедии Список авиационных катастроф в гражданской авиации была отредактирована ВГТРК Ð¡Ð¿Ð¸ÑÐ¾Ðº Ð°Ð²Ð¸Ð°ÑÐ¸Ð¾Ð½Ð½ÑÑ ÐºÐ°ÑÐ°ÑÑÑÐ¾Ñ Ð² Ð³ÑÐ°Ð¶Ð´Ð°Ð½ÑÐºÐ¾Ð¹ Ð°Ð²Ð¸Ð°ÑÐ¸Ð¸ â ÑÐ°Ð·Ð»Ð¸ÑÐ¸Ñ Ð¼ÐµÐ¶Ð´Ñ Ð²ÐµÑÑÐ¸ÑÐ¼Ð¸ â ÐÐ¸ÐºÐ¸Ð¿ÐµÐ´Ð¸Ñ

 Госправки (@RuGovEdits) July 18, 2014
It translates to: Wikipedia article List of aircraft accidents in civil aviation has been edited by RTR [another name for VGTRK].
Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 ‘shot down’ on Ukraine-Russia border | News.com.au



FOOTAGE has emerged that reportedly shows the BUK rocket launcher that blasted Flight MH17 out of the sky  killing 298 people  two hours after the disaster.

Ukraines defence ministry has posted a video to its YouTube account which officials say shows the UK missile system being smuggled by pro-Russian separatists to the Russian border  with at least one missile missing.



The grainy footage, allegedly filmed by a Ukrainian intelligence agent, purportedly shows the rocket launcher being driven towards the Russian border after the attack, which killed 28 Australians on board MH17.
The video has not been independently verified. Ukrainian officials have said they believe Russian separatists near the town of Torez shot the airliner down with the Soviet-era BUK mobile anti-aircraft missile system.

Is this the BUK M2 rocket launcher that blasted Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 out of the sky? | News.com.au

----------


## Ronin

An interesting debate; 

Who shot down Flight MH17? - Inside Story - Al Jazeera English

----------


## bsnub

^^ The mountain of evidence continues to grow against Russia however the tin foil brigade will never be swayed. 

It has already been reported that the Russian got their hands on the black boxes. If this is true another piece of damning evidence that they were involved. I sure hope some Ukrainian farmer or firefighter has one hidden away just waiting to hand it over to anyone but the Russians.

----------


## leemo

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by leemo
> ...


No science that if they were alive after the initial explosion when the plane started to drop they would have experienced utter hopelessness, whether or not they accepted imminent and certain death. But many if not all, once engulfed by the fact that they were soon going to be dead, would have been preoccupied with their life 'flashing before their eyes', which those who have had near death or death and recovery experiences commonly recount. 


OT and interesting speculation or fact, as you wish, but briefly as I understand it from a clinical psychologist years back, the brain is the most efficient database we could imagine, far superior to anything technology has given us, files every event and experience almost if not from birth, gathers further masses of data all the time, and constantly accesses itself to allow us to make the optimum decision in minor to major situations. Note that optimum refers to the situation as well as other variables including personality and unique human factors/functions. 

We may not know why we decide on a certain course, from simple to complex, but setting aside the obvious (wall/fence denotes a boundary, arrow points left to our destination, so we turn left) our decisions are influenced by what the brain sends back from current knowledge and experiences. 

So when fex a person is on their deathbed and their organs start to malfunction or close down, or finds himself in a life threatening situation they have never before experienced, as the brain has never come across such a thing and cannot cope with what is happening it goes into hyper mode flashing through its data and life people/events in search for anything comparable it could offer as a 'solution', and this is why people 'see' their lives flash before their eyes. 

Fire away, but makes lay sense.

----------


## Cujo

I don't think Russia can be directly blamed. maybe Russian backed separatists, but not Russia directly.

----------


## Waid

Looks like poor judgement by the missile crew. 

My main concern is why aircraft fly over war zones at all?

----------


## Necron99

> I don't think Russia can be directly blamed. maybe Russian backed separatists, but not Russia directly.



The missile system is quite a complex bit of kit, it's not something you could operate after just reading the manual.
It would have needed properly trained and experienced (Russian) troops to deploy it successfully.

----------


## Seekingasylum

Just been watching the Malaysian transport minister on Newsasia.

What is wrong with these people? They'll do anything to avoid the truth. Quite pathetic how this spineless government is going along with the idiotic notion that there is still doubt the Russians are responsible. Their stance? We are asking all international agencies to investigate this incident.

Useless, gutless Asians incapable of doing anything for themselves except to make money.

Given the out and out drivel being churned out by Putin's PR machine it is quite extraordinary just how weak the Malaysians are in indulging that creep Putin.

There is no frigging way those anti aircraft missile systems are operated by anyone other than trained military Russian personnel.

Christ, just what on earth does Razak need?

These Asians are only good for shitting on their own people, evidently.

----------


## Seekingasylum

> I don't think Russia can be directly blamed. maybe Russian backed separatists, but not Russia directly.


Err, the so called separatists occupying eastern Ukraine are ethnic Russians supported by Russian armed forces who invaded Ukraine and occupied the Crimea. They have tanks and sophisticated anti aircraft missile systems. I suppose you think they're manned by Igor the pig farmer from Donetsk and his mate Ivan whose potato farming has taken a back seat for a while. FFS, how stupid can you be.

----------


## Lancelot

> Originally Posted by Lancelot
> 
> 
>  
> It happened in Europe and the Europeans can handle it if they choose to.
> 
> 
> But they won't.
> The Russians know that the EU [and other Euro dependencies] is a weak unworthy hand-sitting collective. Charlatans.
> ...


Unfortunately you might be correct. In that case dissolve NATO and just accept what ever Vlad dishes out.

The Dutch PM is purportedly taking it personal- good on him. 

*"Let me be crystal-clear about this," a visibly angry Rutte told reporters in The Hague. 

 "Should it emerge that it was an attack, I will personally see to it that the perpetrators are brought to justice." 
*

Read more at:
Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash: Dutch PM Mark Rutte vows justice for dead 'if Malaysia plane attacked' - The Economic Times

Vlads just a cunning bully- and they always back down when met with equal resolve...

----------


## Lancelot

> Originally Posted by Lancelot
> 
> Or maybe there wasn’t a crash at all, and the bodies were those of passengers from Malaysia Air flight M370, which disappeared in March.
> 
> 
>  Oh boy! This ones going to light up the conspiracy theorists..  MH17 was just a black shadow drone and they just burned up and added the bodies to the crash site and dumped debris and bodies from a plane to spread them across the terrain. Yep, it's all there. After all the US government managed 3 planes and multiple buildings in the middle of the largest city in the US, certainly a single plane by whomever? Is a piece of cake..


Exactly, just like 911 was an inside job. Maybe Vlad made a secret deal with the Dutch to participate in the hoax in exchange for free gas and natural resources? Pin the blame on those uppity Ukrainians that do not wish to re-join the Russian Empire. 

Or the pilots of MH17 were actually CIA agents who bombed and strafed the innocent rebels until they were forced to defend them selves. Perhaps the tin foils can implicate Israel as well, the opportunities for spin are limitless  :Smile:

----------


## leemo

> According to the Russian Media:
> 
> *Another theory: The Ukrainians intentionally shot down the jet at close range as a “planned provocation.” Or maybe there wasn’t a crash at all, and the bodies were those of passengers from Malaysia Air flight M370, which disappeared in March.*
> 
> You couldn't make this stuff up.
> 
> The Netherlands, Malaysia and Australia lost the most citizens on this avoidable tragedy. NATO should support those countries sending in their respective Special Forces to secure the crash site and allow teams of International Investigators to determine what happened.
> 
> If the Russians are culpable, then heavily sanction their economy -and if Russia continues to assist the rebels- assist the Ukraine with advanced military weapons systems to the degree that Russia stops supporting the rebels.
> ...


Problem with invading Russia or any rogue nation, is that the results are unpredictable but guaranteed to be industrially adverse. 

If Bambi ran into a corner when Russia moved against the Ukraine, does anyone really expect him to face off or even send a toy F16 in the general direction of Russia or the Ukraine? Create a global panic over a plane of dead that the Russians possibly did not kill even if they were culpable?

As for sanctions, I can't see Europe blockading Russia with or without the US. Quite aside from one side being prepared to up the ante while the other is frightened of its own shadow, if Russia simply threatens to switch off the gas we have an instant global market swoon.

Rogue nations keep the civilised world on its toes because there is no effective response to anything they do. Not long ago NK sank a SK boat, lots of noise, then deafening silence as the righteous noise makers looked down and saw no balls.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Incidentally, the vids that have been circulating have been rumoured to be fakes....


Well if that's the case then it's well done on an instant and it sheds a different light on the topic but if not? Well it tells a different story and that all remains to be seen as it's certain in that video the fuselage including both wings and tail are still intact..

----------


## leemo

> ^^ The mountain of evidence continues to grow against Russia however the tin foil brigade will never be swayed. 
> 
> It has already been reported that the Russian got their hands on the black boxes. If this is true another piece of damning evidence that they were involved. I sure hope some Ukrainian farmer or firefighter has one hidden away just waiting to hand it over to anyone but the Russians.


I don't see the Russians recovering a black box as proof that they were directly involved. 

Could be wrong but I doubt that audio from the flight data recorder might point to more than an incoming missile, and especially not who fired it.

----------


## leemo

> Looks like poor judgement by the missile crew. 
> 
> My main concern is why aircraft fly over war zones at all?


Lesson hopefully learned. And as missile tech improves, it's only a matter of time before several rogue and war torn countries will become no-fly zones.

----------


## leemo

> Originally Posted by thaimeme
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Lancelot
> ...


Sure he will, no more Gouda till Russia hands them over.

----------


## FloridaBorn

So far it seems that most of the bodies have stayed close to the crash site, suggesting the plane was mostly intact upon impact. 

Official: 181 bodies found at Malaysian plane site

KIEV, Ukraine (AP)  Emergency workers, police officers and even off-duty coal miners  dressed in overalls and covered in soot  spread out Friday across the sunflower fields and villages of eastern Ukraine, searching the wreckage of the Malaysian plane shot down as it flew miles above the country's battlefield.

Official: 181 bodies found at Malaysian plane site

----------


## Ronin

> The missile system is quite a complex bit of kit, it's not something you could operate after just reading the manual.
> It would have needed properly trained and experienced (Russian) troops to deploy it successfully.


This is possibly the most relevant point which is too often being missed.  According to a BBC report and the link I posted above the insurgents should it turn out they had these advanced missiles would probably not have had sufficient training or expertise.   Although they could use the radar they would not have had the ability to distinguish military aircraft from civilian.  Given your statement above, would properly trained Russian troops make such a mistake since they would know military aircraft never fly as high as civilian?

----------


## Lancelot

You've misquoted me. My contention is for the west to sanction Russia and support Ukraine. Supporting Ukraine is not invading Russia. Proxy wars are a nasty business but what is the alternative? Roll over and accept any thing Vlad dishes out?

The clever boys in charge of North Korea, China and Iran are taking notes.

PS- I am in no way suggesting unilateral US action; this is an European problem and if they don't care, why should the US?

----------


## Seekingasylum

Ronin, the ceiling for a fighter bomber is anything up to 45,000 ft plus. 

I agree wholeheartedly, and have done throughout my posts herein, that this act could only have been perpetrated by Russian personnel. Evidently, the gormless tosser who decided to take a potshot at what he thought was a Ukrainian aircraft stupidly ignored the fact that it was also an international air corridor for civil aircraft.

Stupid is as stupid does. 

But watch and enjoy the way governments will to varying degrees shirk from fronting Putin for this atrocity until it's blindingly obvious to even the most pusillanimous that they must tell the guy he's a cvunt.

The world has become full of little men.

----------


## thaimeme

> You've misquoted me. My contention is for the west to sanction Russia and support Ukraine. Supporting Ukraine is not invading Russia. Proxy wars are a nasty business but what is the alternative? Roll over and accept any thing Vlad dishes out?
> 
> The clever boys in charge of North Korea, China and Iran are taking notes.
> 
> PS- I am in no way suggesting unilateral US action; this is an European problem and if they don't care, why should the US?


Ok. Case closed....

Now run off in search of another convenient boogeyman.

----------


## Lancelot

*Sure he will, no more Gouda till Russia hands them over.* (Dutch PM reference)

Yeah I know. But how about targeted assassinations of those responsible? The Netherlands could handle that if the West decides to lube up and allow Vlad his way. 

IMHO a far better response to 911 would have been black ops, sending the Faithful responsible to an early date with the Virgins...

----------


## Lancelot

> Originally Posted by Lancelot
> 
> 
> You've misquoted me. My contention is for the west to sanction Russia and support Ukraine. Supporting Ukraine is not invading Russia. Proxy wars are a nasty business but what is the alternative? Roll over and accept any thing Vlad dishes out?
> 
> The clever boys in charge of North Korea, China and Iran are taking notes.
> 
> PS- I am in no way suggesting unilateral US action; this is an European problem and if they don't care, why should the US?
> 
> ...


OK, the West caves to Vlad and The Boogeymen suddenly become more cooperative and willing to reason- after all they saw the "down side" for complicity in shooting down a civilian air liner. 

I don't understand your logic but maybe after I drink the Kool Aide I will  :Smile:

----------


## taxexile

> But watch and enjoy the way governments will to varying degrees shirk from fronting Putin for this atrocity until it's blindingly obvious to even the most pusillanimous that they must tell the guy he's a cvunt.
> 
> The world has become full of little men.



.... and right on cue is the power hungry, play both sides for all they are worth, broad beamed hausfrau, Merkel






> Speaking earlier in Berlin, the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, said the tragedy underscored, once again, that Russia should be held responsible for the instability in Ukraine, but she responded cautiously to suggestions that Europe should follow Washington’s lead by expanding sanctions.
> 
> “Regarding sanctions, I'd like to point out that the events with the plane, as far as I remember, were not even 24 hours ago and at the moment we need to sort out an independent investigation,” she told reporters.
> 
> "So it's perhaps premature to draw conclusions before we have access to the remains of the plane." EU ministers will meet on Tuesday to discuss a possible package of new punitive measures against Russia, amid continued wariness in European capitals about the economic consequences of more stringent sanctions.

----------


## Ronin

> Ronin, the ceiling for a fighter bomber is anything up to 45,000 ft plus.


I have no reason to disagree, not having been in the military myself but the statement was made my an ex-military pilot in the clip on Aljazeera.  In case you missed it, here it is again Who shot down Flight MH17? - Inside Story - Al Jazeera English  does go on for some time.

----------


## leemo

> *Sure he will, no more Gouda till Russia hands them over.* (Dutch PM reference)
> 
> Yeah I know. But how about targeted assassinations of those responsible? The Netherlands could handle that if the West decides to lube up and allow Vlad his way. 
> 
> IMHO a far better response to 911 would have been black ops, sending the Faithful responsible to an early date with the Virgins...


Who is included in those responsible? Is it the bloke that pressed the trigger, the commander of that particular crew, the whole team, even those that weren't anywhere near the launcher and knew nothing about it, Putin, all Russians...? 

Next, how should the assassination targets be identified? Will Putin send Holland a list in exchange for a whacking great ball of gouda?

Then after we realise Holland is part of NATO, and Bambi would rather stay in his corner sobbing over being seen as impotent, we can have a chuckle over Holland sending the lads in to pick off an unknown number of unidentified individuals.

There will be lots of noise, always is. Meanwhile, the EU-US are busy developing new fangled weapons systems so that rogue nations will respect their might, but still haven't realised that their balls have gone AWOL.

----------


## Lancelot

> Originally Posted by Lancelot
> 
> 
> *Sure he will, no more Gouda till Russia hands them over.* (Dutch PM reference)
> 
> Yeah I know. But how about targeted assassinations of those responsible? The Netherlands could handle that if the West decides to lube up and allow Vlad his way. 
> 
> IMHO a far better response to 911 would have been black ops, sending the Faithful responsible to an early date with the Virgins...
> 
> ...


Yeah the pro Russian rebels can murder 300 civilians on a civilian air plane but the West "Might Get it Wrong" so better to do nothing. Considering that Europe wants Bambi to fights its battles, maybe Bambi's caution is wise after all. He is smart enough to see that the over whelming percentage of those murdered were Europeans. Since the Europeans don't care -might be bad for business- why should Bambi care?

----------


## sabang

The largest foreign investor in russia, is europe. The dominant supplier of europe's energy resources, is russia. The main destination of russia's often nefariously obtained foreign investment funds, europe- be that  premier league teams, high priced real estate, or swiss bank accounts. Furthermore, they are joined by land- neighbours. In contrast, the financial engagement between the US and Russia is fairly modest.

You can talk about big hairy balls and testosterone all you like, armchair hawks, but if instead of Canada on your doorstep it was Russia (or China), and you too had substantial (indeed vital) mutual investment and trade links, you too might have a somewhat more sober assessment of the potential fallout from aggravating matters. This is without even considering the lessons of history, which are considerably more painful and real on one side of the atlantic than t'other. 

So I'm afraid the transatlantic allies will not be as hawkish in europe as some of the nonsense being spouted on the other side of the atlantic. And they are right.

----------


## Troy

> Well if that's the case then it's well done on an instant and it sheds a different light on the topic but if not? Well it tells a different story and that all remains to be seen as it's certain in that video the fuselage including both wings and tail are still intact..


Yet the tail landed 10km away from the main wreckage....

MH17: Photos from crash site show a bucolic Ukrainian field transformed into a smouldering mass grave | National Post

----------


## Lancelot

> The largest foreign investor in russia, is europe. The dominant supplier of europe's energy resources, is russia. The main destination of russia's often nefariously obtained foreign investment funds, europe- be that  premier league teams, high priced real estate, or swiss bank accounts. Furthermore, they are joined by land- neighbours. In contrast, the financial engagement between the US and Russia is fairly modest.
> 
> You can talk about big hairy balls and testosterone all you like, armchair hawks, but if instead of Canada on your doorstep it was Russia (or China), and you too had substantial (indeed vital) mutual investment and trade links, you too might have a somewhat more sober assessment of the potential fallout from aggravating matters. This is without even considering the lessons of history, which are considerably more painful and real on one side of the atlantic than t'other. 
> 
> So I'm afraid the transatlantic allies will not be as hawkish in europe as some of the nonsense being spouted on the other side of the atlantic. And they are right.


No argument from me, so lets dissolve NATO, the US troops depart and every one is happy. Worked well in 1914, 1939 so it'll work now too. 

I agree that the US has less skin in the game in terms of trade and Vlad will certainly not be encouraged by Europe's restraint, so  let the Europeans deal with it- or not  :Smile: 

Vlad might be thinking about some pay back for how the Germans behaved in the previous WWs. Three hundred people murdered- oh well wasn't me  :Smile:

----------


## patsycat

That image of a gun toting, un washed unshaven man holding up a teddy bear sickens me.  Someone will recognise that as the favourite of a child that has died.

----------


## Seekingasylum

> But watch and enjoy the way governments will to varying degrees shirk from fronting Putin for this atrocity until it's blindingly obvious to even the most pusillanimous that they must tell the guy he's a cvunt.
> 
> The world has become full of little men.
> 			
> 		
> 
> 
> .... and right on cue is the power hungry, play both sides for all they are worth, broad beamed hausfrau, Merkel
> 
> ...


Yep, well spotted Tax. You can take the girl out of the DDR but you can't take the DDR out of the girl.

Like all cloned proto nazi bitches Merkel joined the commie party with as much relish as her forbears goose stepped for the Third Reich. Quite a star she was in the Hun version of Comintern and sucked on Erich Honecker's cock as if her career depended on it, evidently a good grounding for politics in the new Bundeswehr. 

She can't help herself and is attracted to Putin as a whore is to the smell of a moneyed John. Old habits die hard and Putin's KGB cologne must drive her crazy for the old times, like a bitch on heat.

Actually, Tax, a pox on both their houses. Come happy Taleban and bomb the shits to their own oblivion. I couldn't give a flying toss if they all fried in some Stalinist oven.

I wonder how the Dutch must be feeling now that Merkel has fucked them over?

Fucking krauts. The Russkies raped over 2 million kraut women. I suppose when Merkel meets Putin she gets a little moist.....

----------


## rickschoppers

This is the latest I can find on the downed Malaysian plane.

Ukraine, rebels argue over wreckage, Germany says Putin has "last chance"

----------


## KEVIN2008



----------


## RangsitRiot

Something needs to be done about Russia. Bunch of trigger happy wronguns with a cabbage fixation. Although what can one do about Russia? It would be like me strolling up to a champion boxer, slapping him and asking if he wanted a 'bunch of fives'. The next few weeks could be interesting

----------


## S Landreth

> This is the latest I can find on the downed Malaysian plane.
> 
> Ukraine, rebels argue over wreckage, Germany says Putin has "last chance"


from your link:




> The Ukrainian security council in Kiev said staff of the emergencies ministry had found 186 bodies and had checked some 18 sq.km (7 square miles) of the scattered 25-sq.km crash site. But the workers were not free to conduct a normal investigation.


yet some demented rebel commander says,...

Malaysia Plane Filled with Already Dead Bodies

A top pro-Russia rebel commander in eastern Ukraine has given a bizarre version of events surrounding the Malaysian jetliner crash  suggesting many of the victims may have died days before the plane took off.

The pro-rebel website Russkaya Vesna on Friday quoted Igor Girkin as saying he was told by people at the crash site that "a significant number of the bodies weren't fresh," adding that he was told they were drained of blood and reeked of decomposition.

from ricks link:




> Midday temperatures are around 30 Celsius (85 Fahrenheit).

----------


## bsnub

HRABOVE, Ukraine  A muted sun baked golden fields of hay and sunflowers. Bloated and mangled bodies gave off a fetid stench. A burly gunman who called himself Grumpy stepped into the road as a convoy of international observers snaked along the bumpy country road to the crash site of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17.
I will let none of you pass! I have an order! he shouted. Motley gunmen in ragtag uniforms flanked out alongside him. A lanky rebel in a beekeeping suit who reeked of alcohol folded his automatic rifle in his arms. The observers wandered out, then meekly retreated.
Two days after MH17 was shot down over east Ukraine  turning a simmering separatist conflict into a crisis of global proportions  the crash site remains a hideous mess that will make it harder for investigators to establish what happened  and for relatives to get peace. As Ukraine, Russia, and Moscow-backed rebels trade barbs over which side fired the missile that brought the Boeing 777 jet down, the bodies of the 298 passengers and crew killed instantaneously were still strewn across a field, decomposing in the 85-degree heat.
Nobody seemed to know where the bodies would be taken. Ukraine wants them stored 185 miles north in Kharkiv, the only nearby city with the facilities to take them, but claims that rebels have already spirited 38 corpses to their nearby stronghold in Donetsk and conducted their own autopsies. With the wreckage from the crash spread out over a 10-square-mile radius, the many bodies still at the scene may fare worse. Ukraine claims to have found 186, and BuzzFeed counted 82 in Hrabove alone, many of them unmoved since the crash. Local firemen and police officers, some of whom had clearly spent the night drinking moonshine, listlessly shoveled body parts into black garbage bags and left them to broil at the roadside.



Determining what exactly downed the plane from 33,000 feet up in the air looks all the more difficult. Independent investigators were nowhere to be seen. Ragtag militiamen with no obvious leadership barred observers and reporters from the field. The planes black boxes have vanished. Ukraine claims rebels are forcing rescuers to hand over all evidence with the intention of transferring it to Russia, which has blamed Kiev for the disaster. The rebels claim not to have found them.
Observers from the OSCE, a European security agency whose 57 member states include Russia, were denied full access to the site for the second day running when they drove up on Saturday. Rebels, led by Grumpy, said they had orders not to let them pass that came straight from the so-called prime minister of the self-proclaimed Donetsk Peoples Republic, a Russian named Alexander Borodai. Though the men eventually relented and let the observers walk as far as the remains of one of the planes two engines, they did not allow them onto the field where the wreckage lay.
There, about two dozen workers from local branches of Ukraines emergency services ministry wandered amidst the debris, tagging bodies with white ribbons on sticks. Some were placed into body bags and carried to the side of the road. Many others lay out to rot in the sun. Ukraine says that the rebels are forcing the rescuers to work for them under gunpoint, but the men seemed unperturbed by their presence. The numerous ambulances shuttling to and from the scene transported several gunmen, but did not remove any bodies. About 10 experts from local police wandered nearby making marks on clipboards. A group of pro-rebel miners, still caked in soot from their shift, stood by, awaiting instructions to help find more bodies. No cordon was set up. Many cameramen stood amid wreckage from the fuselage to get shots, nearly stepping on a hand that plaintively stretched out from under it.



The crash has starkly brought to life the realities of the Donetsk Peoples Republic, which says it is an independent Russian candidate state but seems to actually be made up of myriad armed groups with no obvious order or command structure. Grumpy, the armed mens leader, said no investigators or observers would be allowed until the experts  who, as provincial police officers, would have no training in handling air disasters or other crime scenes of such magnitude  had completed their work.
He said that the men were employees of the armed wing of the Donetsk Peoples Republics prosecutors office, which the self-proclaimed prime minister has said is investigating the crime. None of the men, however, even knew what the prosecutors name was offhand. One rebel in a safari hat who routinely made casual threats to shoot reporters in the knees eventually looked at the back of his Donetsk Prosecutors Office badge and found the prosecutors name, Ramil Khalikov. Khalikov was nowhere to be seen. The man, who declined to give his name, admitted that he had only joined the prosecutors office very, very recently.
Ukraine and the rebels accuse each other of holding up the removal of the bodies. Prime Minister Arseny Yatsenyuk claims that international aviation experts who arrived to collect evidence were threatened by the armed men and fled the scene. Borodai, the rebel prime minister, said at a briefing on Saturday that Kiev was to blame for holding up their arrival after the United Nations Security Council authorized their mission a day earlier.



Theres a grandmother. A body landed right in her bed. She says please take this body away. But we cannot tamper with the site, Borodai said, according to Reuters. Bodies of innocent people are lying out in the heat.
Ukraines security service released detailed photographs on Saturday that it said suggested separatists fired the rocket near the rebel-controlled town of Snezhnoe, having mistaken the Malaysian flight for a Ukrainian cargo plane. Kiev says that Igor Bezler, a rebel commander it claims is a Russian agent, fired the rocket with the help of Russian military specialists. The rebels deny that they have the sophisticated equipment required to down aircraft at such heights, despite boasting of acquiring it only weeks earlier.
The longer it takes for an investigation to occur, the more difficult that investigation will be  and the easier it is for wild rumors and conspiracies to spread. Kremlin media has suggested that Ukraine was attempting to shoot down Russian President Vladimir Putins plane as it flew nearby at the same time. Numerous pro-Russian websites  including a page on Russian Facebook clone VK written in the name of militia commander Igor Strelkov that has never been proven to actually be his  have even suggested that the plane was full of unfresh corpses and the downing was planted to frame the rebels.
None of this will go any way to assuaging the agony of the 298 victims relatives, powerless as their loved ones bodies lie for a third day in a far-flung field, baked into the asphalt and rotting into the ground. Rebels have gone through their things and piled them in a corner at the edge of the site. Ukraine claims that some of them looted the victims credit cards and attempted to make purchases with them.
But the real losses are still by the side of the road. A stuffed toy monkey. Books about 1990s English soccer coaches. A Malaysian familys holiday photos. A childs diary, in Dutch. A Macbook Pro with its screen smashed, opened in an apparent attempt to see if it still worked. A toddlers white onesie, embossed with I HEART AMSTERDAM.
Nearer to the village, a cross bears a sign, HEAVEN HELP US. An empty plastic two-liter bottle lies by the engine wreckage. Amid the stench of death all around, you can smell the alcohol. The bottle looks new.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/ch...victims-by-the

----------


## zygote1

[QUOTE=taxexile;2822905[/QUOTE]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to taxexile  /gent again
grrr. Well, I green you all the same.

Merkel is protecting German business interests.
I don't think the Dutch and British are going to accept it.

----------


## zygote1

> Originally Posted by sabang
> 
> 
> The largest foreign investor in russia, is europe. The dominant supplier of europe's energy resources, is russia. The main destination of russia's often nefariously obtained foreign investment funds, europe- be that  premier league teams, high priced real estate, or swiss bank accounts. Furthermore, they are joined by land- neighbours. In contrast, the financial engagement between the US and Russia is fairly modest.
> 
> You can talk about big hairy balls and testosterone all you like, armchair hawks, but if instead of Canada on your doorstep it was Russia (or China), and you too had substantial (indeed vital) mutual investment and trade links, you too might have a somewhat more sober assessment of the potential fallout from aggravating matters. This is without even considering the lessons of history, which are considerably more painful and real on one side of the atlantic than t'other. 
> 
> So I'm afraid the transatlantic allies will not be as hawkish in europe as some of the nonsense being spouted on the other side of the atlantic. And they are right.
> 
> ...


Unfair to the Dutch and British. Neither country is addicted to Russian energy. To be blunt, the Dutch can be rather stubborn when it comes to matters involving mass murders by foreign states and I don't think the land of the  giants is easily intimidated by Boris and his band of barbaric bullies. Australia, New Zealand and Canada have lost nationals,  with Australia, suffering most.  The international dynamic is going to be interesting.   Canadian PM Harper took a lot of heat for adopting a tough line  on the Ukraine from the start of the Russian expansionism and it looks like he's vindicated. He  adopted his tough approach after dialogue with Polish PM  Tusk. Meanwhile Australia has influence with Canada, especially now that PMs Abbott and Harper are best buddies on carbon emissions and foreign policy. Canada also owes Australia  a favour after the Australians helped stop a surge in Sri Lankan  refugees from Thailand. I think they will all send a message to Mrs. Merkel that they aren't in the mood for another Von Ribbentrop- Moltov style of European policy making.

----------


## leemo

> 


Yeah, poor thing looks terrified.

----------


## leemo

> Originally Posted by rickschoppers
> 
> 
> This is the latest I can find on the downed Malaysian plane.
> 
> Ukraine, rebels argue over wreckage, Germany says Putin has "last chance"
> 
> 
> from your link:
> ...


Here we go, dust off the tinfoil hats...

----------


## taxexile

> I will let none of you pass! I have an order! he shouted. Motley gunmen in ragtag uniforms flanked out alongside him. A lanky rebel in a beekeeping suit who reeked of alcohol folded his automatic rifle in his arms.





> Local firemen and police officers, some of whom had clearly spent the night drinking moonshine, listlessly shoveled body parts into black garbage bags and left them to broil at the roadside.





> Ragtag militiamen with no obvious leadership barred observers and reporters from the field. The planes black boxes have vanished.





> One rebel in a safari hat who routinely made casual threats to shoot reporters in the knees





> Rebels have gone through their things and piled them in a corner at the edge of the site. Ukraine claims that some of them looted the victims credit cards and attempted to make purchases with them.






> None of this will go any way to assuaging the agony of the 298 victims relatives, powerless as their loved ones bodies lie for a third day in a far-flung field, baked into the asphalt and rotting into the ground.


Its amazing and quite frightening to realise that a bunch of brain dead alcohol fuelled gorillas armed with rifles can literally render Europe, Malaysia, Australia the UN and Nato powerless and completely impotent in the matter of the investigation of this accident and respectful treatment of the bodies of the victims.

----------


## Little Chuchok

It's fucking simple.Stop all visas being issued to Russian passport holders traveling overseas.

The end.

----------


## koman

> It's fucking simple.Stop all visas being issued to Russian passport holders traveling overseas.
> 
> The end.


Except for females under 40.  The world needs a good supply of quality whores.

----------


## rickschoppers

Let's just start with kicking all the Russians out of Thailand.

----------


## Little Chuchok

> Originally Posted by Little Chuchok
> 
> 
> It's fucking simple.Stop all visas being issued to Russian passport holders traveling overseas.
> 
> The end.
> 
> 
> Except for very good looking females under 40.  The world needs a good supply of quality whores.


Changed that for you, but 100% behind your post.  :Smile:

----------


## cyrille

> Yeah, poor thing looks terrified.


Annoying Canada will do that to ya.

----------


## Smug Farang Bore

Malaysian airlines have opened the route again and they are going the same way.

Let's hope the idiots on the ground have run out of rockets

----------


## jamescollister

All is not what it seems, lots of tough talk, but little action.
Can't watch video [nets to slow] looks like a rag tag milita, not seen tanks, gunships, artillary , bunch of farmers with AKs. 
Ukraine has an army, gunships, tanks, APCs etc, they could have taken the area, little problem.
Why didn't they, afraid of Putin, a maybe, but doubt the Russians would get involved over this.
Seems to me, both sides want the scene degraded, evidence removed etc.
Putins going to be blamed by the west, Russia will blame the Ukraine, so why don't just go in.
It's about a plane, allegedly shot down, not politics and sanctions, yet. Jim

----------


## Bettyboo

^ I'm not sure about that, Jim.

The Russians massively outpower the Ukranians, and the Russians are very heavily involved; Russians on the ground, Russian trained insurgents, Russian weapons and air support; the list goes on...

----------


## jamescollister

> ^ I'm not sure about that, Jim.
> 
> The Russians massively outpower the Ukranians, and the Russians are very heavily involved; Russians on the ground, Russian trained insurgents, Russian weapons and air support; the list goes on...


 A phone call to ask Putin for his response and help, too much to ask of our leaders.

Or did he threaten us and we cower in fear, if he is in control, he could tell the militia to put out.

Everyone seems more intent on scoring political brownie points, what happened to the plane is secondary. Jim

----------


## Seekingasylum

James I don't think anyone with even the most challenged of intellects is not aware of what happened to the aircraft. It was shot down by a Russian missile fired by Russian personnel from eastern Ukraine.

The world is simply grappling with how to respond. 

The initiative is with the Dutch and Malaysians. Unless Putin accepts full responsibility and makes reparations, they should both sever all ties with Russia, impose full trade sanctions, prohibit Russian aircraft from entering their airspace, exclude all Russian registered vessels and those owned by Russian companies operating under flags of convenience from entering their territorial waters, withdraw all diplomatic representation and impose a full visa regime on all Russian nationals but suspend any visa issue until diplomatic ties have been restored, and, finally, seize all Russian assets and funds held in their respective countries.

Quite simple really. But as Hamlet already observed " oh how the native hue of resolution is sicklied o'er by the pale cast of thought ".

----------


## Lancelot

> Let's just start with kicking all the Russians out of Thailand.


Would Pattaya still exist?  :Smile:

----------


## Lancelot

> Originally Posted by Lancelot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by sabang
> ...


That's exactly my point, if the West is firm and says "This will not stand" Vlad would back off. Germany is thinking about gas and exports, France- where are they, no comments. They are just a large European nation after all. If the countries you mentioned took a stand, then the US should lend support, not run the show but respectfully lend all the assistance at its disposal.

Stick together or hang separately. Pretty easy choice as I see it...

----------


## Mr Earl

Two words;  Delta Force, now that sort these bozos out quickly.

----------


## Necron99

I'm surprised the Malay PM isn't being more vocal on the issue given his Grandma was on the flight.
Shame Malaysia buys all it's military kit form the Russkis.

CORRECTED-Malaysia PM confirms step-grandmother aboard doomed Flight MH17 | Reuters

----------


## Lancelot

> Two words;  Delta Force, now that sort these bozos out quickly.


Special forces from the countries involved could have secured the crash site, treated the deceased with some dignity and allowed International inspectors to collect evidence. 

Now we are seeing how the pro Russian rebels behave- like common criminals, looting the dead and not tending to their bodies.

----------


## Seekingasylum

They're Russians, what do you expect? Charm, discretion, sang froid.

As I said, they're lumpen savages and the ones in the boonies are scarcely human. 

Ghastly folk. 

But yes, it's pitiful to see just how inept the Malaysian PM truly is. Out of his depth and looks like a bumbling old bumiputra just retired from a middling successful career as a paper clip salesman.

----------


## koman

> They're Russians, what do you expect? Charm, discretion, sang froid.    As I said, they're lumpen savages and the ones in the boonies are scarcely human.






They do know how to treat their women right though...... :Smile:

----------


## bsnub

> Now we are seeing how the pro Russian rebels behave- like common criminals


That's because they are common criminals. Look from the top down. The are all of a bunch of losers who failed at life. Take Denis Pushilin the self-proclaimed Chairman of the Donetsk People's Republic he ran for Ukrainian Parliament as recent as December of last year garnering a pitiful .08% percent of the vote in Donetsk oblast. He last worked for a recent successor of the 1990s Russian Ponzi scheme company MMM, which cost its customers millions of dollars before it was disbanded in 1994. He then decided to try politics where he was once again a failure.

----------


## OhOh

> I don't think anyone with even the most challenged of intellects


Most here seem a little "challanged" about the simplest of topics.




> Two words; Delta Force, now that sort these bozos out quickly.


Yeh sure, send some of them closer to the front and cause more genocide. A real good idea.




> That's because they are common criminals. Look from the top down. The are all of a bunch of losers who failed at life. Take Denis Pushilin the self-proclaimed Chairman of the Donetsk People's Republic he ran for Ukrainian Parliament as recent as December of last year garnering a pitiful .08% percent of the vote in Donetsk oblast. He last worked for a recent successor of the 1990s Russian Ponzi scheme company MMM, which cost its customers millions of dollars before it was disbanded in 1994. He then decided to try politics where he was once again a failure.


Not like the western politicians then  :Confused:

----------


## OhOh

> If the countries you mentioned took a stand, then the US should lend support, not run the show but respectfully lend all the assistance at its disposal.


Lately the Europeans have taken a stance, they have not followed the "respectful" US lead  :smiley laughing:  

 When was the last time the US "lent" anything and allowed any country to utilise US "assitance" without a US leader in charge?

----------


## harrybarracuda

Putin won't do anything to control the scum in Eastern Ukraine. If he does, it will prove that he has complete control over them.

So he'll stick to the story that they are acting independently and deny ever supplying them with sophisticated SAMs.

----------


## bsnub

> Not like the western politicians then


Apples to oranges. If you can not see the difference then there is no point explaining.

----------


## Takeovers

> Putin won't do anything to control the  scum in Eastern Ukraine. If he does, it will prove that he has complete  control over them.
> 
> So he'll stick to the story that they are acting independently and deny ever supplying them with sophisticated SAMs.


You are right. They may however start acting slightly less irresposible - without his intervention of course.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Lancelot

> Originally Posted by Lancelot
> 
> If the countries you mentioned took a stand, then the US should lend support, not run the show but respectfully lend all the assistance at its disposal.
> 
> 
> Lately the Europeans have taken a stance, they have not followed the "respectful" US lead  
> 
>  When was the last time the US "lent" anything and allowed any country to utilise US "assitance" without a US leader in charge?


Off the top of my head:

The US asked South Korea for years to assume over all military command during an attack by North Korea. Only recently did the Koreans accept.

Since it is often un economical to transport equipment home, the US has often left military hardware in the host country for their use.

Pretty obvious that you dislike the US and I won't try to change your mind. Russia certainly treats others with respect- maybe you can find a buddy there  :Smile:

----------


## OhOh

> Pretty obvious that you dislike the US and I won't try to change your mind. Russia certainly treats others with respect- maybe you can find a buddy there


I dislike their lying and two sided arguments portrayed by their subservient media. The US has some very good things unfortunately relationships with it's allies and foreign policy is in my opinion misguided to say the least. 

If you look at the reports from the Russian media and elsewhere generally I agree with their positions on more things.

"Buddies" are here today and gone tomorrow. The same with all politicians. Promising the heavens and delivering the shit.

As of today there is still no concrete evidence but the masses here and in most western media have already pressed this button



As I posted in post No. 17. They are just regurgitating their own prejudices.

----------


## koman

> As of today there is still no concrete evidence but the masses here and in most western media have already pressed this button


So, are you saying you don't think it was Russia, or Russians that shot down MH17?

Given the location and circumstances iff not the Russians. (as in ethnic Russian rebels)...who do you think did it?.

----------


## Lancelot

> Originally Posted by OhOh
> 
> As of today there is still no concrete evidence but the masses here and in most western media have already pressed this button
> 
> 
> So, are you saying you don't think it was Russia, or Russians that shot down MH17?
> 
> Given the location and circumstances iff not the Russians. (as in ethnic Russian rebels)...who do you think did it?.


It was Hillary. The poor girl's in love with Vlad and she'll do any thing to unleash massive US  power, conquer Russia and have Vlad as her boy toy.

Mark my words gentlemen...

----------


## OhOh

> Originally Posted by OhOh
> 
> As of today there is still no concrete evidence but the masses here and in most western media have already pressed this button
> 
> 
> So, are you saying you don't think it was Russia, or Russians that shot down MH17?
> 
> Given the location and circumstances iff not the Russians. (as in ethnic Russian rebels)...who do you think did it?.


Currently there are too many loose ends which will probably never be answered. My only thought is, "Who gains anything from this disaster?" and "Who has shown recent total disregard for collateral damage and the rules of international law?"

As for the location question, are you aware of the locations of all sides in this conflict, are you aware of their military forces available to the different sides?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by OhOh
> ...


The "concrete evidence" (or rather metal) is lying in a field, and Pro-Russian separatists are doing their best to make sure no-one gets a good look at it until they've cleaned up.

I wonder what goes through your head sometimes OhOh.

----------


## koman

> "Who gains anything from this disaster?" and "Who has shown recent total disregard for collateral damage and the rules of international law?"


My guess..nobody benefits from shooting down a civilian airliner from a country on the other side of the world that has no connection whatsoever to the conflict.  





> As for the location question, are you aware of the locations of all sides in this conflict, are you aware of their military forces available to the different sides?


There really are only two sides (or three if you want to count the ethic Russian goons in East Ukraine) 

...... One being Russia (and it's proxy military establishment in East Ukraine) ; and the other being Ukraine itself.  The military forces of both would have the capability to shoot down a high flying aircraft.  

  There are of course many other parties who have an interest in the situation but none of them are in a position to be shooting down airplanes on the Ukraine/Russian border.... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): .....but wait, I get it; you think it was the Americans.....what a surprise.... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## OhOh

> The "concrete evidence" (or rather metal) is lying in a field, and Pro-Russian separatists are doing their best to make sure no-one gets a good look at it until they've cleaned up.


For sure there are pieces of plane, bodies of last week happy people etc. unfortunately there is nobody anyone is pointing at with, in my mind "concrete evidence" as to how it happened.




> I wonder what goes through your head sometimes OhOh.


Dispair, at the ignorant sheep around the world.

----------


## OhOh

> There are of course many other parties who have an interest in the situation but none of them are in a position to be shooting down airplanes on the Ukraine/Russian border.........but wait, I get it; you think it was the Americans.....what a surprise....


Follow the money and hey presto it becomes clearer.

Which country has sent money to the Ukraine - The US yes (prior and after the coup overthrowing a democratically elected government), The EU no, Russia No

Which international finance organisation has given the Ukraine money - The IMF (controlled by the US)

Which countries rating agency has come out with a positive AAA rating on the Ukraine government debt - S&P (a US controlled agency).

Which countries have made political promises - the US, we will let you in NATO, the EU we will let you in the EU, the Russians - no.

Which country is pressing for the EU to be less dependent on Russian gas, The US wants the EU to start accepting US fracked gas because they have so much and have recently passed laws to allow this. Even though it is 5 times as expensive and wont be deliverable for 5 years.

Which country is currently wanting the Europe to sign up for a trade agreement, excluding Russia - The US

Which country is currently wanting ALL the Pacific rim countries to sign for a trade agreement excluding China - the US.

Which country as some have said here would like the Russian land and resources - The US (via Clinton et al)

Which country is supporting the Asian countries to take China to the international court of the Seas convention over boundary disputes, even though they have not joined the organisation themselves and wont accept their rulings - the US

Some reasons to consider or not.

..........

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> There are of course many other parties who have an interest in the situation but none of them are in a position to be shooting down airplanes on the Ukraine/Russian border.........but wait, I get it; you think it was the Americans.....what a surprise....
> 
> 
> Follow the money and hey presto it becomes clearer.


Well Ohho it can't have been Russians then.  We all know that Mr.Putin and the new Russian imperialists are not interested in money..... :Smile: ....although quite frankly I don't see any connection between shooting down a Malaysian plane and the money trail;  regardless of who did it.  Maybe you could enlighten those of us who are disconnected from such intrigues.... :Smile:

----------


## koman

Here's an interesting little tidbit form the world of civil aviation.   The Ruskies want to bully and grab everything they can get their hands on it seems.  

[B]ICAO backs Ukraine’s rights over Black Sea
[/B
]April 14, 2014
UN aviation agency ICAO is insisting that the right to provide air navigation services in international airspace over the Black Sea within Simferopol flight information region belongs exclusively to Ukraine.

In a statement, UkSATSE, the Ukrainian national provider of air navigation services said Russia has no legal grounds to seize this airspace and interfere with the work of air traffic services in Ukraine.

It said ICAO’s position was confirmed during negotiations between representatives of Ukraine and Russian Federation on the issue of safety in the airspace over the Crimea and the open seas, which is under the jurisdiction of Ukraine.

The first round of negotiations took place on April 8 in the European and North Atlantic Office of ICAO in Paris.

UKSATSE cited instances of Russia’s unlawful seizure of radiofrequencies spectrum that belongs to Ukraine, misuse of 121.5 MHz emergency frequency and unauthorised use by third parties of operational radio frequencies used at Odessa and Dnipropetrovsk Area Control Centres (ACC) are the major threats to the safety of flights.

Ukraine has also officially condemned Russian Federation for the violation of a number of international, multilateral and bilateral agreements and also of the provisions of the European Air Navigation Plan and the Chicago Convention.

----------


## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by OhOh
> ...


With you on that OhOh, Ukraine has missiles, Russia has missiles, seems a porous border, just as easy for a renegade Ukraine unit, as Russians.

Asked before, do these missile systems have secondary radar, criminal or act of war, big difference.
If Russia fired on purpose, knowing it was ML17, that's an act of war, if a Ukraine missile launcher, crew could have been pro separatist, or not.

Sure, Russia and the west have been keeping close tabs on military movements, you don't move missile systems, even at night without being seen. It's a hot spot, spies in the sky are watching.

Could be enough blame to go around both sides. Jim

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> The "concrete evidence" (or rather metal) is lying in a field, and Pro-Russian separatists are doing their best to make sure no-one gets a good look at it until they've cleaned up.
> 
> 
> For sure there are pieces of plane, bodies of last week happy people etc. unfortunately there is nobody anyone is pointing at with, in my mind "concrete evidence" as to how it happened.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why don't you ask yourself who benefits from taking the bodies from the site and removing any traces of the weapons that killed them. Wouldn't be the people taking the bodies from the site would it?

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## jamescollister

Harry, CNN reporting bodies taken in refrigerated trucks to a train station. Don't think they have a lot of infrastructure, never mind police, fireman, ambos. 

Can only work with what you got, can't believe a bunch of farmers with AKs, could be organized in a short time to do a cover up.  Too busy looting, it's not an army, with command and control, just a bunch of guys with guns. Jim

----------


## Lancelot

'Every single day we're lying': Russia Today reporter resigns over coverage of Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash

'Every single day we're lying': Russia Today reporter resigns over coverage of Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash - NY Daily News

----------


## Necron99

The launcher alone only has targeting radar.
It would require the presence of the command vehicle for them to have positively identified the jet and there is no suggestion that one was present.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Harry, CNN reporting bodies taken in refrigerated trucks to a train station. Don't think they have a lot of infrastructure, never mind police, fireman, ambos. 
> 
> Can only work with what you got, can't believe a bunch of farmers with AKs, could be organized in a short time to do a cover up.  Too busy looting, it's not an army, with command and control, just a bunch of guys with guns. Jim


Seriously, do they look like farmers to you?

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Pragmatic

> it's not an army, with command and control, just a bunch of guys with guns. Jim


Them guns just happen to be _sophisticated surface to air missiles with a command and control set up.
_

----------


## koman

> 'Every single day we're lying': Russia Today reporter resigns over coverage of Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash
> 
> 'Every single day we're lying': Russia Today reporter resigns over coverage of Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash - NY Daily News


Oh dear, that story is  going to upset a few or our devoted RT posters....being as they view RT as the last word in truth and accurate reporting....... :Smile:

----------


## Cujo

Farmers with guns, right.

----------


## patsycat

That was a well loved child's teddy, his/her family will see that photo and die a little bit more inside.

Those guys have no respect at all.

----------


## harrybarracuda

That fat turd on the right is in charge, but takes his orders from elsewhere.

----------


## jamescollister

N99 , missile system they say was used, needs a command and radar vehicle.
Harry and Koojo look closely at the pics, not Russian special forces, different boots, different uniforms, can't see proper body armor. Nor other gear a real soldier would carry.
I looked better playing paint ball, guy holding the teddy, looks like he could lose a few pounds.
Uniforms and weapons looted from reserve bases, if they are Russian S/F, Russia has a problem.
2 nd pic, guy with the balaclava, no 20 to 30 years old, hitting 40, eyes tell.

Get a pic up of US, UK, OZ, marines, Para or just grunts, in combat, do they look like that. Jim

----------


## Cujo

They're seperatist rebels, not a national army. Maybe Farmers in a different life, but not now.

----------


## Chittychangchang

^ Looters!

----------


## jamescollister

> They're seperatist rebels, not a national army. Maybe Farmers in a different life, but not now.


 That's not the story, Russians shot the plane down, if the Ukraine went in to secure the site, they would have been met by Russian forces.  Don't care what aid the Russians gave to a bunch of farmers, press is there, no Russian military force, advisers, perhaps.
This bunch couldn't stop boy scouts, as said, a phone call to Putin, asking for assistance.
Putin didn't order a civie plane shot down, politics, money and a blame game.
No side on this has high ground, people died and our leaders pay games. Jim

----------


## Cujo

> ^ Looters!


Yes, lowlife scumbag criminals.

----------


## jamescollister

My net and computer are bad, guy on the second photo has an insignia on his left collar, right for him. looks like a k or 7 k to me. Anybody read it, just curious. Jim

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> 
> They're seperatist rebels, not a national army. Maybe Farmers in a different life, but not now.
> 
> 
>  That's not the story, Russians shot the plane down, if the Ukraine went in to secure the site, they would have been met by Russian forces.  Don't care what aid the Russians gave to a bunch of farmers, press is there, no Russian military force, advisers, perhaps.
> This bunch couldn't stop boy scouts, as said, a phone call to Putin, asking for assistance.
> Putin didn't order a civie plane shot down, politics, money and a blame game.
> No side on this has high ground, people died and our leaders pay games. Jim


No-one said Putin ordered a plane shot down. Just that he is responsible for arming separatists who don't care what they do with anti-aircraft weapons with this capability. Bear in mind they have already shot down at least one Ukrainian transport plane.

If Russian forces openly move into Ukraine, Ukraine will no doubt turn to Europe and NATO and the whole game changes - I doubt even Putin is that mental.

There is no high ground on this, people want an open investigation and they are not getting it because the (Russian trained and equipped) perpetrators are blocking them, and by the sounds of it removing evidence.

As I said, Putin could stop this nonsense in one phone call, but that would prove what everyone already knows and he wants to continue to deny: That the separatists are acting on behalf of the Russians.

----------


## OhOh

> Originally Posted by Lancelot
> 
> 
> 'Every single day we're lying': Russia Today reporter resigns over coverage of Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash
> 
> 'Every single day we're lying': Russia Today reporter resigns over coverage of Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash - NY Daily News
> 
> 
> Oh dear, that story is  going to upset a few or our devoted RT posters....being as they view RT as the last word in truth and accurate reporting.......


Do you watch/listen to the news to see the boobs/arses or to hear/see world leaders saying or doing things. I know it's a stupid question but to you it seems the PRESENTERS morals are more important to you than the news.

The fact that a news PRESENTER was upset enough to leave his/her job is a personal issue to that person or possibly the news companies medical team.

----------


## helge

> My guess..nobody benefits from shooting down a civilian airliner from a country on the other side of the world that has no connection whatsoever to the conflict.  
> 
>   :


Probably the most naive post I have ever seen on Teakdoor

----------


## OhOh

> Just that he is responsible for arming separatists who don't care what they do with anti-aircraft weapons with this capability.


One could equally say that the Russians or the USSR were responsible for arming and training the Ukrainian military as the USSR/Russia sold them the arms/training. The only problem is that if the Russian weapons suppliers were responsible for that then the "worlds largest weapons supplier" is guilty of the same crime, or a greater crime as they sell more.

Do you really believe weapons suppliers care a fig for the outcome of their usage. :Confused: 




> Bear in mind they have already shot down at least one Ukrainian transport plane.


The same weapons system or manpads?

----------


## thaimeme

> That was a well loved child's teddy, his/her family will see that photo and die a little bit more inside.
> 
> Those guys have no respect at all.


It's all about the children.
European children.

----------


## OhOh

> As I said, Obama could stop this nonsense in one phone call, but that would prove what everyone already knows and he wants to continue to deny: That the Ukrainian coup leaders are acting on behalf of the USA.


Fixed it for you Harry. See how easy it is to twist peoples words, put them on the internet and it becomes fact - for some. 

Next time post a video of you saying these things and we can see how authentic the fake can appear. :Smile: 




> There is no high ground on this, people want an open investigation and they are not getting it because the (Russian trained and equipped) perpetrators are blocking them, and by the sounds of it removing evidence.


Which group of trustworthy citizens are your favourites, the Malays, the Ukranians or maybe the Russians ? 

One moment the separatists are alleged to be drunken oafs the next they are a highly trained army capable of stopping a sovereign countries arm/air force/intelligence units/special forces/mercenaries/Investigators.  :Confused: 

I don't believe many leaders of the free world   :Smile:  have actually accused the Russians military forces of invading this part of the Ukraine but then I might have missed it.

----------


## zygote1

OHOH, you have posted  multiple false and misleading statements.
Your comments are an excellent example of the  psychological state of denial. When a person is confronted with facts that are so overwhelming contrary to a  core set of beliefs/opinions, the person will go to great lengths to deny the facts and to offer fantastic  explanations that defy reason, so that the core set of beliefs/opinions can remain intact. They will even lie and  attempt to pass off false statements as the "truth"  Let's look at some of the  erroneous claims made;

_Which countries rating agency has come out with a positive AAA rating on the Ukraine government debt - S&P (a US controlled agency)._

None. The S&P rating for the Ukraine is CCC, which is the lowest published rating on the S&P country rating chart at this time. S&P is not a US controlled agency. It is a publicly traded company, meaning that it is controlled by the public and is not a US agency. This is the same rating company that lowered the USA rating of the USA.  Why, would you post such a blatant lie?
Ukraine | Credit Rating

_Which international finance organisation has given the Ukraine money - The IMF (controlled by the US)_

The USA does not control the IMF. In fact the  executive director of the IMF has historically been a European. Each of the 188  member countries appoints 2 governors, one of which votes. It is the governors who set the overall direction of the IMF. The 24 member  executive board oversees the daily operations. Are you even aware that Russia sits on the executive board, along with China? Are your aware that the most recent IMF loan is to be used to pay the Gazprom inflated debt to Russia? One of the reasons why the Ukraine needed an IMF loan was to pay the Russian debt. Talk about a bigger country bullying a smaller country and the Russian treatment of the Ukraine over the Gazprom bills comes to mind.

_Which country is pressing for the EU to be less dependent on Russian gas, The US wants the EU to start accepting US fracked gas because they have so much and have recently passed laws to allow this. Even though it is 5 times as expensive and wont be deliverable for 5 years_.

That's quite a stretch. Did you know that the USA has historically forbidden the export of gas to  countries with which it does not have an FTA? No laws have "recently been passed".   The US department of energy gave conditional approval for the possible construction of an LNG facility in Texas.  The decision  still needs approval from the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. The facility might be built by 2017-2018  and  is intended to serve the Asian market.  It is currently not feasible nor cost efficient  to  ship that LNG to the EU.  The USA would be delighted if it  could sell LNG to the EU. Unfortunately, the USA has neither the LNG nor the facilities  to do so. The USA  primary export markets are Canada and Mexico and the USA has been trying to expand its sales to Canada first. 


_Which countries have made political promises - the US, we will let you in NATO, the EU we will let you in the EU, the Russians - no.
_
The USA  has never said it would "let" the Ukraine  join NATO. It is not the USA's decision to make and requires agreement from other NATO members. It was the Ukraine that proposed joining, and not the USA. Both France and Germany said no. The USA response was lukewarm at best, uttering politically expedient niceties, but hoping the issue went away.  In respect to the  joining  of the EU, that is primarily a social development issue. For backward countries, the EU offers tremendous benefits in terms of improving a country's quality of life. These benefits in terms of    markets, aid, healthcare support and infrastructure support were  not available from backwards Russia. In all the years that the Ukraine was a vassal state, the Russians offered none of the benefits that the EU could offer. That is why a majority of Ukrainians want to join the EU. On an immediate benefit basis, Ukrainians could travel anywhere in the EU without a visa. A weekend in Paris sure beats spending a weekend is swinging downtown Volgograd. Russia countered with threats. Join with Russia or else the price of gas would increase etc. Russia's position was one of blackmail and intimidation.

The rest of your claims are just absolute speculation, the product of a  distressed mind, that cannot accept the fact that mother Russia  is a barbaric bully. Your reaction is similar to the reactions of  European communists when Stalin's concentration/slave labour camps were publicized. Deny, deny, deny and try to redirect the attention away from the  horrific situation.

----------


## blue

> Farmers with guns, right.


and where is this photo from ?
a google image search just returns , twater and facebook references ?

----------


## OhOh

Thank you for your concern regarding my mental health. Thank you also for replying to 3 points.




> Which countries rating agency has come out with a positive AAA rating on the Ukraine government debt - S&P (a US controlled agency).


_"__The bailout floodgates are open and the US taxpayer is footing the bill  once again - whether through IMF loans or more directly. Today saw Ukraine issue $1 Billion 5-Year Notes at a stunningly low risk of only 28bps above US Treasuries  and dramatically cheaper than the cost of capital in the public markets  (and from the IMF) which yield over 10%. The reason for the 1) low  cost, and 2) actual ability to raise debt... the bond is guaranteed  by the US Agency for International Development and "assures full  repayment of principal and interest" based on the full faith and credit  of the US (Taxpayer). We assume Gazprom will be happy..."_

Which have been rated AAA by S&P (Due to the US taxpayer's gaurantee). 

http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/e...#ixzz32AqLrf1a

Ukraine Seeks to Raise $1 Billion Through Sale of U.S.-Backed Bonds - WSJ

What happened to S&P when they downrated the US credit rating?
I am surprised to hear that you believe any US company steps outside the hammer of the US government. But that is your view.




> Which international finance organisation has given the Ukraine money - The IMF (controlled by the US)


You may wish to view the voting shares assigned by countries from this document from the IMF. Currently the USA has 44% effectively a veto.

http://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/p.../quota_tbl.pdf




> Which country is pressing for the EU to be less dependent on Russian gas, The US wants the EU to start accepting US fracked gas because they have so much and have recently passed laws to allow this. Even though it is 5 times as expensive and wont be deliverable for 5 years.


_"__On March 6, 2014, Republican Cory Gardner and other members of the House  Committee on Energy and Commerce introduced bipartisan legislation to  help expedite the export of U.S. shale gas as liquefied natural gas  (LNG) to markets overseas. The bill, called H.R. 6, the Domestic  Prosperity and Global Freedom Act[1],  stated that all pending LNG export applications for which a notice had  been published in the Federal Register as of March 6, 2014, would be  granted a response without delay.[2] The  decision concurred with the letter issued by Ambassadors of the  Visegrad Group, Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic and Slovakia, urging  the U.S. Congress to help them buy American natural gas, this way  reducing their dependence on Russian gas imports"_

Obstructions from both EU and US mean that LNG exports to the Old Continent won't be happening anytime soon

----------


## OhOh

> people want an open investigation and they are not getting it


Which "people" Harry. I have missed the demonstrations in the street showing what the "people" want. Not that any government takes any notice of demonstrations. What we have seen is politicians calling for their latest bogey man. Not that the politicians, any of them, would ever agree on what to do or actually achieve doing it. What we have seen is news sources "sexing" up, remember Iraq, little factual evidence to scare the sheeple into agreeing a quick and necessary law to be passed to give the politicians more power.

----------


## OhOh

> The plane is in territory controlled by Russian separatists.  Do you acknowledge that?


I do.

Do you agree the plane may have been shot down by a missile launched anywhere in a 100 Km radius? Do you know if the Ukrainians or the separatists had had working launchers and trained personnel in that area? 

No valid evidence has been produced yet. I am quite sure the NATO and Russian military have this evidence but have both chosen not to release it.

This from wiki: Buk missile system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

_"__The most capable radar, assuming it has a line-of-sight (no terrain  between the radar and the target), can track targets (depending on size)  as low as 100 feet (30 meters) and a far as 85 miles (140 kilometers).  The most capable missile can hit targets as far as 30 miles (50  kilometers) and more than 80,000 feet (25,000 meters) in altitude"_




> (1) The rebels are stopping anyone performing a detailed investigation. (2) The rebels are overseeing the theft of artifacts from the crime scene. (3) The rebels have commandeered the bodies and taken them where they are not immediately accessible to the families.


1.Should the acting authority at the crash site, the separatists, allow anyone approaching in a war zone free access? Has anyone asked them?
2. Theft or moving to a secure area?
3, Should they leave the rapidly decaying bodies in the field to be decomposed by the summer sun, corrupted by the rain or eaten by roving foxes so that the families can view them in-situ? Or should they be moved to a secure cool house - if there is one available in a Ukrainian war zone?




> on the balance of evidence


I don't agree that any "evidence" has been produced and there is no "balance" in the reporting at all.





> Russian-armed separatists accidentally blew  this passenger aircraft out of the sky, and both them and Putin are  doing everything they can to try and cover it up.


That may well be true, but there has been no "evidence" released that proves it. The evidence may well never be released similar to the the other Malay plane disappearance.

----------


## Lostandfound

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> 
> Farmers with guns, right.
> 
> 
> 
> and where is this photo from ?
> a google image search just returns , twater and facebook references ?


Hitler called them Untermensch. Sub-humans, fit only to be treated and worked as animals and then disposed of. 

Seems he was right.

----------


## bsnub

We assess that Flight MH17 was likely downed by a SA-11 surface-to-air missile from separatist-controlled territory in eastern Ukraine. We base this judgment on several factors. 

Over the past month, we have detected an increasing amount of heavy weaponry to separatist fighters crossing the border from Russia into Ukraine. Last weekend, Russia sent a convoy of military equipment with up to 150 vehicles including tanks, armored personnel carriers, artillery, and multiple rocket launchers to the separatist. We also have information indicating that Russia is providing training to separatist fighters at a facility in southwest Russia, and this effort included training on air defense systems. 

Pro-Russian separatist fighters have demonstrated proficiency with surface-to-air missile systems and have downed more than a dozen aircraft over the past few months, including two large transport aircraft. 

At the time that flight MH17 dropped out of contact, we detected a surface-to-air missile (SAM) launch from a separatist-controlled area in southeastern Ukraine. We believe this missile was an SA-11. 

Intercepts of separatist communications posted on YouTube by the Ukrainian government indicate the separatists were in possession of a SA-11 system as early as Monday July 14th. In the intercepts, the separatists made repeated references to having and repositioning Buk (SA-11) systems. 

Social media postings on Thursday show an SA-11 system traveling through the separatist-controlled towns of Torez and Snizhne, near the crash site and assessed location of the SAM launch. From this location, the SA-11 has the range and altitude capability to have shot down flight MH17. 

Ukraine also operates SA-11 systems, but we are confident no Ukrainian air defense systems were within range of the crash. Ukrainian forces have also not fired a single surface-to-air missile during the conflict, despite often complaining about violations of their airspace by Russian military aircraft. 

Shortly after the crash, separatists  including the self-proclaimed Defense Minister of the Donetsk Peoples Republic Igor Strelkov  claimed responsibility for shooting down a military transport plane on social media. 

In an intercepted conversation that has been widely posted on the internet, a known-separatist leader tells another person that a separatist faction downed the aircraft. After it became evident that the plane was a civilian airliner, separatists deleted social media posts boasting about shooting down a plane and possessing a Buk (SA-11) SAM system. 

Audio data provided to the press by the Ukrainian security service was evaluated by Intelligence Community analysts who confirmed these were authentic conversations between known separatist leaders, based on comparing the Ukraine-released internet audio to recordings of known separatists. 

Video posted on social media yesterday show an SA-11 on a transporter traveling through the Krasnodon are back to Russia. The video indicated the system was missing at least one missile, suggesting it had conducted a launch. 

Events on the ground at the crash site clearly demonstrate that separatists are in full control of the area. 

Statements 2014 &#124; Embassy of the United States Kyiv, Ukraine

----------


## koman

^
Good post Bsnub.. This sums up the event very well, and kinda puts a damper on some of the strange notions about a few farmers with guns wandering about.

----------


## zygote1

[QUOTE=OhOh;2824013]

I give you  marks for consistency albeit, consistently incorrect.

You  stated _Which countries rating agency has come out with a positive AAA rating on the Ukraine government debt - S&P (a US controlled agency)._
When you were questioned, because S&P has assigned a CCC rating to the Ukraine, you come back with a convoluted conspiracy claim about 1 Eurobond securities issue.  Yes, the USA has offered a loan guarantee on this debt. That loan guarantee means that the Ukraine will obtain lower interest obligation, which makes the ability to service the debt easier and does not imprison the Ukraine to debt servitude, as is the case with Russia charging an exorbitant interest rate on the Gazprom debt.
There is nothing unusual with the  debt issue. Canada provided $200 million of direct aid, dependant upon the IMF following through with its aid package.

Do you remember all of those  Ukrainian nuclear weapons? The USA paid in large part to dispose of those nukes. Russia did not. I shudder to think of the consequences if the rebels had their hands on them now. You know that crappy Russian designed nuclear power station at Chernobyl that blew up? The  disaster which the Russians did not help with?  USAID contributed $200 million to the final decommissioning of the Chernobyl nuclear plant. The US Department of Energy spent more than $50 million in 2010 in support of closing and containing the nuclear disaster site. That's where US aid goes. The loan guarantees  the USA is providing will allow the Ukraine to pay  the Russian Gazprom "debt". The Ukraine is dependent upon Russian gas and the Russians won't supply unless their loanshark type debt is repaid first.

You claimed the USA  _"have recently passed laws to allow this"_ in reference to a forced supply of LNG to the EU.  W hen questioned on this, you reference proposed  House of Representatives Bill, H.R.6.  This Bill is not  law, and has not been passed by the Senate nor signed by the POTUS. Have you read the Bill?

H.R. 6 would expedite the decision making process for authorization to export natural gas under section 3 of the Natural Gas Act by requiring the Department of Energy (DOE) to issue a decision within 90 days after the later of the end of the comment period or the date of enactment of the Act. The legislation also would grant original and exclusive jurisdiction over certain civil actions to the United States court of appeals for the circuit in which the export facility will be located.

This is quite different than the intent of your original statement and you remain factually incorrect.

You are very wrong again on the IMF. Where do you get the 44% number?  The number of votes as a % are directly related to the funding of the IMF, and rightly so. The USA has 16.75% of the votes. That is hardly a veto, nor does it give the  USA control of the IMF. The USA must still build a consensus.

----------


## Lancelot

*Russian Billionaires ‘in Horror’ as Putin Risks Isolation*

_"The economic and business elite is just in horror," said Igor Bunin, who heads the Center for Political Technology in Moscow. Nobody will speak out because of the implicit threat of retribution, Bunin said by phone yesterday. "Any sign of rebellion and they'll be brought to their knees." 

The downing of the Malaysian airliner, which killed 298 people, led to renewed threats of deeper penalties by the U.S. and the European Union, who've already sanctioned Russian individuals and companies deemed complicit in fueling the pro-Russian insurgency in Ukraine. U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said yesterday the available evidence suggests Russia provided the missile used by the rebels to down the airliner. U.K. Defence Secretary Michael Fallon was cited by The Mail on Sunday of accusing Putin of "sponsored terrorism."_ 

_Putin's Circle 
While the EU has so far imposed less punitive measures against Russia than the U.S. because of opposition from countries such as Italy and Austria, the U.K. and the Netherlands are leading the push for bolder action at a meeting of foreign ministers tomorrow. Most of the victims aboard the plane, 193, were Dutch; 10 were British. 

The U.S. has already imposed penalties on state-run companies and members of Putin's inner circle, including billionaires Gennady Timchenko and Arkady Rotenberg. The latest sanctions, announced a day before the Malaysia Air (MAS) attack, barred OAO Novatek (NVTK), a gas producer partly owned by Timchenko, from using U.S. debt markets for new financing with maturities longer than 90 days. Novatek's London shares fell 8 percent over two days, cutting its market value by almost $3 billion. 
_
Putin is skilled in brinksmanship but he's not stupid either. Can a united West increase the pressure to find out Vlad's threshold of pain causing him to blink? 

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/russia...200001106.html

----------


## rickschoppers

There can definitely be enough pressure placed on Putin, by the west, to make him blink. 

The real question is will everyone have the balls to follow through with that pressure?

----------


## leemo

> We assess that Flight MH17 was likely downed by a SA-11 surface-to-air missile from separatist-controlled territory in eastern Ukraine. We base this judgment on several factors. 
> 
> Over the past month, we have detected an increasing amount of heavy weaponry to separatist fighters crossing the border from Russia into Ukraine. Last weekend, Russia sent a convoy of military equipment with up to 150 vehicles including tanks, armored personnel carriers, artillery, and multiple rocket launchers to the separatist. We also have information indicating that Russia is providing training to separatist fighters at a facility in southwest Russia, and this effort included training on air defense systems. 
> 
> Pro-Russian separatist fighters have demonstrated proficiency with surface-to-air missile systems and have downed more than a dozen aircraft over the past few months, including two large transport aircraft. 
> 
> At the time that flight MH17 dropped out of contact, we detected a surface-to-air missile (SAM) launch from a separatist-controlled area in southeastern Ukraine. We believe this missile was an SA-11. 
> 
> Intercepts of separatist communications posted on YouTube by the Ukrainian government indicate the separatists were in possession of a SA-11 system as early as Monday July 14th. In the intercepts, the separatists made repeated references to having and repositioning Buk (SA-11) systems. 
> ...


I hope they didn't draw blood scratching their asses while Russia consolidated by pouring heavy duty stuff into an already volatile region.

----------


## leemo

> There can definitely be enough pressure placed on Putin, by the west, to make him blink. 
> 
> The real question is will everyone have the balls to follow through with that pressure?


Strong men only blink when they see a pair of balls coming at them. 

Putin's well safe.

----------


## harrybarracuda

A fairly accurate opinion piece IMHO.

(CNN) -- The tragic fate of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17, believed shot down by a missile in eastern Ukraine, killing all 298 on board, has cast a new light on the series of gambles Russian President Vladimir Putin embarked on in late February.
At that time, Putin sent military intelligence troops in unmarked uniforms to take control of the southern Ukrainian peninsula of Crimea. Three weeks later, Russia annexed the region.

As Russian-speaking Ukrainians farther north in Donetsk and Luhansk stormed administrative buildings, demanding independence from Kiev, Russian intelligence officers started slipping across the border to help organize the militias. In subsequent months, Moscow supplied the separatist guerrillas with artillery, tanks and anti-aircraft weapons.

Putin's goal appeared to be to pressure Ukraine's leaders to negotiate with the Russia-backed rebels and offer constitutional autonomy to the country's eastern regions. Intimidated by the superiority of the Russian army, Kiev -- it seemed -- would have to buckle under.

This strategy was failing even before the Malaysia Airlines tragedy. Soon after his election last May, Ukraine's new President, Petro Poroshenko, launched a determined military campaign to crush the separatist guerrillas. Although he might have been willing to negotiate with Putin, he showed no inclination to talk to the swashbuckling Russian desperadoes on the ground.

The success Poroshenko's operation was having explains why recently Moscow reportedly supplied its proxies with at least one radar-guided Buk missile system that could destroy Ukrainian military planes flying at high altitudes. Such missiles also had the range to hit the commercial airliners that continued to cross the conflict zone.

While the facts about who shot down Flight MH-17 can only be settled by a full investigation, Ukraine's government has said it has "compelling evidence" that a Russian-supplied battery, manned by Russian operatives, fired the missile.
Suddenly, the risks inherent in Putin's gamble are glaringly obvious. By supplying weapons to the rebel militias, with their strange mix of intelligence agents, local thugs and trigger-happy Russian volunteers, Putin made himself a hostage to their brutish blundering. On Saturday, some of these "freedom fighters," apparently drunk, were said to be manhandling the corpses, while barring OSCE observers from the crash site.

All must now await the results of the international investigation. If it concludes that the plane was shot down by rebels using a Russian-supplied missile -- or, worse still, by Russians themselves -- the pressure on Putin will become intense. The West, led by President Barack Obama, will demand that he cut off support to the rebels once and for all and seal the border.

If Putin does not do so, tougher economic penalties are almost certain. Already, the latest round of U.S. sanctions, announced on July 17, surprised observers by their severity. They targeted the third and fourth largest Russian banks -- VEB and Gazprombank -- as well as the energy companies Rosneft and Novatek, which are associated with the Putin cronies Igor Sechin and Gennady Timchenko.

Putin will, thus, have two options, both dangerous for his regime.

He could reject the conclusions of the international investigation and stand by the separatists. This would result in serious damage to the Russian economy from sanctions that might now target whole sectors such as banking or energy. Such measures would send the economy -- already forecast by the IMF to grow just 0.2% this year -- into a painful recession.

At the same time, the Kremlin would find itself more internationally isolated than at any time since the end of the Cold War. Not just the U.S. and Britain, but many other countries that were previously friendly or neutral would start to treat Putin as a pariah. And Putin would have to worry that his protégés across the border might commit some new atrocity, provoking the world into even tougher countermeasures.

Putin's second option would be to accept the report's conclusions and cut off supply lines to the rebels. But that could create significant problems for him at home.
To those informed about the conflict by Russian state-controlled television, such a turnaround would be bewildering. A relentless barrage of propaganda has convinced many Russians that their co-ethnics in Donetsk and Luhansk are being massacred by troops commanded by a fascist regime in Kiev. For Putin to bow to international pressure and abandon his former charges would look like cowardice.

Such a betrayal could quickly squelch the post-Crimea euphoria. From the start, the Kremlin's strategy in Ukraine has aimed in part at consolidating domestic support. As the economy stagnates, Putin has sought to replace growth and prosperity as a basis for popularity with anti-Western nationalism and conservative values.
In the past, xenophobic nationalists have been among the least favorable toward Putin. His current astronomical ratings -- 86% in the latest Levada Center poll -- suggest at least some temporary success in winning them over.

Were he to abandon the anti-Kiev insurgents, Putin could kiss such support goodbye. Moreover, were he to admit that Russian-backed rebels fired the missile, the credibility of Russian state-controlled television would suffer. The main channels have pushed a variety of conspiracy theories, including one in which the Ukrainian military shot down the plane, mistaking it for the jet flying Putin home from the BRICS summit in Brazil. Should Putin disavow such theories and endorse the Western version, his propagandists would look like liars.

It remains possible that the investigation will fail to reach any strong conclusions, leaving Putin some wiggle room. But at this point interpretations completely exonerating Russia are few and far between.

"War," wrote Clausewitz, "is the province of chance." The danger that a covert military operation could get out of hand should have been clear all along. For 14 years, Putin proceeded cautiously in international affairs, weighing expected costs and benefits before taking action. His decision to invade Crimea was so uncharacteristically risky -- with such large potential costs and short-lived benefits -- that it took many observers by surprise.

Now, unless some new unexpected event turns up to rescue him, Putin faces an unappealing dilemma. Either way, the risks are high. Having gambled his way into trouble, he now has little choice but to roll the dice again.

Opinion: Vladimir Putin's big blunder - CNN.com

----------


## Lancelot

*Such a betrayal could quickly squelch the post-Crimea euphoria. From the start, the Kremlin's strategy in Ukraine has aimed in part at consolidating domestic support. As the economy stagnates, Putin has sought to replace growth and prosperity as a basis for popularity with anti-Western nationalism and conservative values.
 In the past, xenophobic nationalists have been among the least favorable toward Putin. His current astronomical ratings -- 86% in the latest Levada Center poll -- suggest at least some temporary success in winning them over.*

Poll rating usually do soar- when there is no down side. Vlad's Achilles heel is a decline in Russians standards of living. The Ruskies have had a taste of the good life and there's no putting that genie back in the bottle.

Amazing that Europe is so timid in its response when they really do hold the trump card- money. Vlad isn't going to blink unless the EU makes him. Witnessing the disrespect shown to the dead passengers is just the preview of things to come unless this evil prick is brought to heel

----------


## jamescollister

Thought the Ukraine said no missiles missing.

CNN today. {But on June 29, rebels raided the Ukrainian army's A-1402 missile facility near Donetsk. Photographs show them examining what they found.
The Russian website Vosti ran an article the same day titled "Skies of Donetsk will be defended by surface-to-air missile system Buk."]

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Thought the Ukraine said no missiles missing.


Jim,

When you come out with statements like this, can you please provide a link?

----------


## harrybarracuda

e.g.




> Direct supply of the BUK from Moscow to rebels would be a major escalation in the ongoing conflict. However, on June 29, Russia's official news agency, ITAR-TASS, reported that pro-Russian separatists took a BUK system under  their control. The report does not specify whether or not this was theft from the Russian or Ukrainian militaries, only that the rebels had seized control of the weapons system. An AP report , dated yesterday, noted that, “A launcher similar to the BUK missile system was seen by Associated Press journalists near the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne, which is held by pro-Russia rebels, earlier Thursday.”


Ukraine Rebels Allegedly Downed Malaysian Airlines With BUK Launcher | New Republic

or




> Could the pro-Russian rebels have acquired a serviceable Buk from a Ukrainian base and operated it? The evidence is circumstantial; a great deal of Ukrainian military hardware is in poor condition or redundant.
> But on June 29, rebels raided the Ukrainian army's A-1402 missile facility near Donetsk. Photographs show them examining what they found.
> The Russian website Vosti ran an article the same day titled "Skies of Donetsk will be defended by surface-to-air missile system Buk."
> The article claimed: "The anti-air defense point is one of the divisions of the missile corps and is equipped with motorized "Buk" anti-aircraft missile systems."
> Peter Felstead, an expert on former Soviet military hardware at Janes IHS, says that "the Buk is in both the Russian and Ukrainian inventories, but it's unclear whether the one suspected in the shoot-down was taken by rebels when they overran a Ukrainian base, or was supplied by Russia."


http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/20/wo...html?hpt=hp_t1

----------


## harrybarracuda

Even Itar-TASS are backing off trying to blame the Ukrainians now.




> KIEV, July 21. /ITAR-TASS/. As many as 251 bodies were retrieved at the crash site of Malaysia Airlines’ Boeing-777 passenger plane in eastern Ukraine. Ukrainian State Service for Emergency Situations reported this on Monday.
> “According to reports as of 7 a.m., July 21, 251 bodies and 66 fragments of bodies were found, delivered and loaded on refrigerated railroad cars at Torez railway station,” the Ukrainian emergencies service said.
> 
> The search area makes 120 square kilometers. “As many as 810 people, including 335 emergency staff and 35 units of machinery are involved in the search-and-rescue operation in the air disaster area and for special works in Kiev,” the press service noted.
> The Malaysia Airlines Boeing-777 airliner en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur crashed in the area of combat actions between local militias and Ukrainian governmental troops in east Ukraine’s Donetsk region on Thursday, July 17. All 298 people aboard the plane died in the air crash./END


ITAR-TASS: World - Over 250 bodies retrieved from Malaysian Boeing crash site in eastern Ukraine

----------


## Necron99

> N99 , missile system they say was used, needs a command and radar vehicle.


No, it does not.


"The Buk missile system was designed to surpass the 2K12 Kub in all parameters, and its designers, including its chief designer Ardalion Rastov, visited Egypt in 1971 to see Kub in operation.[8] Both the Kub and Buk used self-propelled launchers developed by Ardalion Rastov. *As a result of this visit, the developers came to the conclusion that each Buk transporter erector launcher (TEL) should have its own fire control radar, rather than being reliant on one central radar for the whole system as in Kub.[8]* The result of this move from TEL to transporter erector launcher and radar (TELAR) was a system able to shoot at multiple targets from multiple directions at the same time."

Buk missile system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



The command vehicle adds IFF and mulriple target modes but each launcher can operate independently without it.

----------


## Fozzy

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> Thought the Ukraine said no missiles missing.
> 
> 
> Jim,
> 
> When you come out with statements like this, can you please provide a link?


You want a link to his thoughts?

I'm flying out of Kiev airport in a couple of weeks. Should be fun.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> I'm flying out of Kiev airport in a couple of weeks. Should be fun.


Depends what direction.

 :Smile:

----------


## Necron99

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by jamescollister
> ...



Take responsibility for your actions and don't pass the Buk....

----------


## harrybarracuda

Yes, better find out if it's a smoking or non-smoking flight.

----------


## OhOh

Comments on the US Embassy released, but not created by, plane crash. Yellow highlights in the statement. Blue comments by myself.

*United States Assessment of the Downing of Flight MH17 and its Aftermath*  

We assess that Flight MH17 was likely downed by a SA-11  surface-to-air missile from separatist-controlled territory in eastern  Ukraine. We base this judgment on several factors.  

As of yet no definitive statement, just supposition. Enough to send one to prison or poison in some countries I know.

Over the past month, we have detected an increasing amount of heavy  weaponry to separatist fighters crossing the border from Russia into  Ukraine. Last weekend, Russia sent a convoy of military equipment with  up to 150 vehicles including tanks, armored personnel carriers,  artillery, and multiple rocket launchers to the separatist. We also have  information indicating that Russia is providing training to separatist  fighters at a facility in southwest Russia, and this effort included  training on air defense systems.  

No Russians around in this invasion force? No contact with the Ukrainian military forces? No outrage at this Russian invasion? Eerily quite on this major world event. Training on the specific BUK systems or manpads?

Pro-Russian separatist fighters have demonstrated proficiency with  surface-to-air missile systems and have downed more than a dozen  aircraft over the past few months, including two large transport  aircraft.  

With Manpads or BUK systems?

At the time that flight MH17 dropped out of contact, we detected a  surface-to-air missile (SAM) launch from a separatist-controlled area in  southeastern Ukraine. We believe this missile was an SA-11. 

How large is this area, how close to the dividing line between Ukrainian and separatists areas was it? How long had the separatists held this area? Has it been sterilised by whoever launched the missile from it? Have we seen and YouTube videos or the launch or the launch system arriving and leaving this area. Without these how can it be believed?

Lets hope this "detection" is a little better than the last one.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/...territory.html

Intercepts of separatist communications posted on YouTube by the  Ukrainian government indicate the separatists were in possession of a  SA-11 system as early as Monday July 14th. In the intercepts, the  separatists made repeated references to having and repositioning Buk  (SA-11) systems.  

A working system? Repositioning from where to where? Youtube and the UKranian Goverment are vetted sources?

Social media postings on Thursday show an SA-11 system traveling through  the separatist-controlled towns of Torez and Snizhne, near the crash  site and assessed location of the SAM launch. From this location, the  SA-11 has the range and altitude capability to have shot down flight  MH17.  

When was the video created, by whom and has the creator been "interviewed" to confirm authenticity?

Ukraine also operates SA-11 systems, but we are confident no Ukrainian  air defense systems were within range of the crash. Ukrainian forces  have also not fired a single surface-to-air missile during the conflict,  despite often complaining about violations of their airspace by Russian  military aircraft.  

The plane crash site possibly, but the more important missile launch site no "confident" statement ?

Shortly after the crash, separatists – including the self-proclaimed  “Defense Minister” of the Donetsk People’s Republic Igor Strelkov –  claimed responsibility for shooting down a military transport plane on  social media.  

In an intercepted conversation that has been widely posted on the  internet, a known-separatist leader tells another person that a  separatist faction downed the aircraft. After it became evident that the  plane was a civilian airliner, separatists deleted social media posts  boasting about shooting down a plane and possessing a Buk (SA-11) SAM  system.  

Assuming these are the same conversation who intercepted it and who has verified it for accuracy etc.? Who would have thought a web site could be hacked either with inserting anything or deleting it after it is copied by the media!

Audio data provided to the press by the Ukrainian security service was  evaluated by Intelligence Community analysts who confirmed these were  authentic conversations between known separatist leaders, based on  comparing the Ukraine-released internet audio to recordings of known  separatists. 

Good to hear of the Intelligence Community, no names no numbers just empty words. Let's hope the know what they are doing this time.

Video posted on social media yesterday show an SA-11 on a transporter  traveling through the Krasnodon are back to Russia. The video indicated  the system was missing at least one missile, suggesting it had conducted  a launch.  

Creator, validation or fake.  How long did the video follow it, right to the border post? Was it missing all it's missiles, did it originally have more?

Events on the ground at the crash site clearly demonstrate that separatists are in full control of the area.  

Full of control of the crash site, possibly, and for how long prior and in the future. Has the alleged missile launch site been similarly demonstrated to be in the control of the separatists?

----------


## OhOh

> Even Itar-TASS are backing off trying to blame the Ukrainians now.


No mention of guilt on either side, how quaint.

----------


## OhOh

> The command vehicle adds IFF and mulriple target modes but each launcher can operate independently without it.


Has anyone identified the launch system and confirmed it had this modification and it was working?

----------


## OhOh

A press conference by the alleged leader of the separatists on the plane crash. press the captions button for English subtitles.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> Even Itar-TASS are backing off trying to blame the Ukrainians now.
> 
> 
> No mention of guilt on either side, how quaint.


Notice how I said "backing off"?

I.e. They've changed their story now everyone knows the rebels are to blame. I wouldn't expect a Putin mouthpiece to admit fault.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by Necron99
> 
> The command vehicle adds IFF and mulriple target modes but each launcher can operate independently without it.
> 
> 
> Has anyone identified the launch system and confirmed it had this modification and it was working?


Bit difficult if it's now pissed off back to Russia eh?

What a surprise they didn't leave it there so everyone could have a good look at it.

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> I can only assume you have no television, choose not to watch any of the coverage from the scene, and ignore any reports from various journalists in place.  It seems fairly pointless discussing a World News story with someone who doesn't even watch or read it.  The sort of head-in-the-sand apologetic drivel put out by people like yourself is exactly what Putin wants.  You should be very proud of yourself.
> 
> 
> A statement from the US government not suitable eh. As opposed to your CNN links!
> 
> Putin has made some statements, wow. Where were they reported and analysed here, CNN, BBC, Fox,.......  As opposed to Obama and Camerons!
> 
> I've made a small number of mistakes during my life, but on the whole yes I am, thanks.


If you read what every government has said, they are stopping short of accusing Russia outright of committing this act, clearly in an attempt at getting Putin to man up and release the bodies and the crash site.

Personally I think they should stop pussyfooting around. He will just wait it out as long as he needs to, or engineer things so as to detach himself from any blame.

And it doesn't matter what source I use, 99% of them are REPORTING the same thing because they are there on the ground watching.

I'm sure everything is rosy in your little word. But it clearly isn't the real one.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> A press conference by the alleged leader of the separatists on the plane crash. press the captions button for English subtitles.


I got to the bit where he said they warned the OCSE off the crash site "for their own protection" and realised that you actually believe this shit.

----------


## OhOh

It's just one source of news from the horses mouth, that's all. Unlike 99% of the MSM. Believe it or not, it's your choice.

I thought he was implying it was a war zone and security cannot be guaranteed. But as you say we live in different worlds.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> It's just one source of news from the horses mouth, that's all. Unlike 99% of the MSM. Believe it or not, it's your choice.
> 
> I thought he was implying it was a war zone and security cannot be guaranteed. But as you say we live in different worlds.



Ask the people warned off the crime scene by armed thugs at gunpoint who they thought represented a threat to their security.

Duh.

----------


## OhOh

A video of a Russian Military illustrating and publishing their version of the shooting down of the plane. In Russian with English translation.




The Russian Ministry of Defence has accepted the US bet and upped the ante. Will the US respond?

The Russians will be sending their evidence to the Europeans and the Malaysian Governments along with the crash team investigators, will the US?

Is that the US cavalry riding of the hill or Sitting Bull with his Navajo warriors,  came back next week and watch the next episode.

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> I got to the bit where he said


and then..


 :Smile:

----------


## Troy

> Originally Posted by Necron99
> 
> The command vehicle adds IFF and mulriple target modes but each launcher can operate independently without it.
> 
> 
> Has anyone identified the launch system and confirmed it had this modification and it was working?



There is no modification required. The Buk, on its own, has an acquisition/tracking radar and weapon so it can work autonomously. However, in a fully functioning air defence system with several Buk it is desirable for them to have separate targets and this is where the command truck comes in. The Search radar truck is there for early detection before passing the targets to the correct/optimum acquisition/targeting Buk for the job.

It is more than likely that those that sat in the Buk that day were unaware of any aircraft flying apart from Ukrainian military. Civilian flights probably didn't even register in their thoughts. They had a weapon that could shoot down Ukrainian supply planes and troop carriers and that's all they were focussed on. 

The reports I have read in Western papers are a little OTT to say the least. One reporter damns the rebels for not touching the bodies and then damns them for moving them almost in the same breath. Yes the evidence points to looting with cash cards being used the next day but this is not the first time it has happened and certainly won't be the last time. Picking up body parts is not for the faint hearted and it looks as if there were a lot of non rebel volunteers from the local miners that did all they could to help. As with all things in this world there were good and bad playing their part. It all depends on how the media decide to put it across to the public.

Let's hope that this bread-basket of Russia doesn't escalate into a full fledged nightmare.

----------


## taxexile

> 


Looks like the gorilla went to poundland for his new suit.

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> A press conference by the alleged leader of the separatists on the plane crash. press the captions button for English subtitles.


Up to 10 minutes and there's a serious question.

This dude is saying the "international experts" haven't arrived.

Why?

----------


## OhOh

The OSCE international investigators arrived investigators on tha 18th according to the BBC. 

BBC News - MH17 crash: OSCE investigators reach east Ukraine site

When was the video made?

_"The OSCE team is yet to be supported by an international  investigation force. Many countries have gathered diplomatic officials  and forensic officers in the capital, Kiev, but have not sent them to  negotiate with the pro-Russian rebels for full access to the site.          _ _Australia has a 45-strong team in Kiev, including 20 from the  Department of Foreign Affairs, 20 AFP officers, three Defence officials  and two Australian Transport Safety Bureau investigators._
_It may take a resolution from the United Nations Security  Council to allow them to head east to the wreckage site, where  the OSCE has been working in dangerous conditions for days."_


Who is MH17 investigator Alexander Hug?

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

19th - (uploaded on the 20th)

 ::chitown::

----------


## harrybarracuda

:Latest:

The Russians have finally caved and are transporting the bodies by train from Torez to Kharkiv, where they will be flown to Amsterdam.

They said they are going to hand over the Black boxes at 9pm local tonight.

They have also said that they will allow full access to the site so that the rest of the remains can be recovered.

Live: Malaysian PM Speaks on MH17 - TIME

Added: There are 282 victims on the train reportedly.

The live feed link is closed. More here:

BBC News - LIVE: Live coverage: MH17 investigators in Ukraine

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> Originally Posted by OhOh
> 
> 
> A press conference by the alleged leader of the separatists on the plane crash. press the captions button for English subtitles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kepps talking about "Alexander Hug"

The person controlling shit on the ground.

Who is Alexander Hug?

Who is MH17 investigator Alexander Hug?

----------


## harrybarracuda

15 minutes. I wonder if the Black Boxes will be found to have been opened and tampered with?

----------


## wasabi

The cold storage train has left with the corpses bound for a Dutch Hercules transporter aircraft that will hopfully link up with the train.
Things are moving.

----------


## OhOh

> a Dutch Hercules transporter aircraft


Part of the resolution - no transportation on Malaysian Airways.

----------


## OhOh

> I wonder if the Black Boxes will be found to have been opened and tampered with?


Do they have to be opened to access the data? They must have a data port on the outside, I am sure on another thread it was determined that they all come with USB sockets now.  :Smile: 

Update ,,, Initial inspection of the newly released black boxes indicate that it was originally fitted in MH370.

----------


## OhOh

Some more "information" released from Russian sources including aerial/space photographs.

http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-p...ussia-ukraine/

Will the US or the Ukrainians release theirs or bury it for years in the International Investigation Report to be published in December 2016.

----------


## zygote1

Despite all the tangents and attempts to sidetrack the issue, the fact still remains that;
-  a missile was used against a passenger airliner. 
- the plane landed in a rebel controlled area and the rebels blocked initial efforts of investigators to reach the crash site
- during the delay, the locals and/or the militias  looted luggage and  contaminated the crash site
- Mr. Putin did not intervene on behalf of the  air crash investigators and has remained quite quiet, although his supporters have not.

The consensus is that the  Russian backed rebels and/or Russian agents fired the missile. Some will deny it all they want, but I marvel at the hypocrisy. Had this involved the USA, UK or Israel, these very same people would demand a lynching.


And on a note that beggers belief, yesterday MH's alternative route for LHR-KUL was over Syrian airspace. Way to go MH. Brilliant.

----------


## blue

Putin should have taken the eastern bit  of Ukraine just after he annexed the Crimean peninsula,
if he had this plane disaster would never have happened.

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> Despite all the tangents and attempts to sidetrack the issue, the fact still remains that;





> - a missile was used against a passenger airliner.


Ok



> - the plane landed in a rebel controlled area and the rebels blocked initial efforts of investigators to reach the crash site


blocked the initial efforts of what investigators - not their own (albeit basic)




> - during the delay, the locals and/or the militias looted luggage and contaminated the crash site


as the guy says - 10km radius bodies and luggage scattered everywhere, bound to happen - as they've been "ordered not to touch the crime scene"




> - Mr. Putin did not intervene on behalf of the air crash investigators and has remained quite quiet, although his supporters have not.


Ok




> The consensus is that the Russian backed rebels and/or Russian agents fired the missile.


Bollocks. The consensus amongst right wing Americans maybe - but not THE consensus.

----------


## Lancelot

> Putin should have taken the eastern bit  of Ukraine just after he annexed the Crimean peninsula,
> if he had this plane disaster would never have happened.


Putin is an old Cold Warrior. His play book is:

1 Destabilize Eastern Ukraine

2.Support the rebels

3 Eventually send Russian troops in to 'protect' ethnic Russians

4 Stand down for awhile, then repeat above steps.

----------


## rickschoppers

^^
OK, so what is the CONSENSUS?

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> OK, so what is the CONSENSUS?


There isn't one.

There's a huge amount of confusion and disagreement on the subject regarding to what/how/why so obviously there can be no consensus at this point.

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> Putin is an old Cold Warrior. His play book is:  1 Destabilize Eastern Ukraine  2.Support the rebels  3 Eventually send Russian troops in to 'protect' ethnic Russians  4 Stand down for awhile, then repeat above steps.


Are you trying to be ironic or does it come naturally?

----------


## Lancelot

> ^^
> OK, so what is the CONSENSUS?


That Al is still being Al  :ban him:

----------


## Lostandfound

> Putin should have taken the eastern bit  of Ukraine just after he annexed the Crimean peninsula,
> if he had this plane disaster would never have happened.


If Hitler had done the same it might be better still.

 "We will take the southern Ukraine, especially the Crimea, and make it an exclusively Germany colony. There will be no harm in pushing out the population there now.." July 1941.

----------


## bsnub

> There's a huge amount of confusion and disagreement on the subject regarding to what/how/why so obviously there can be no consensus at this point.


You and Ohoh are the only ones who seem to be confused.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier
> 
> There's a huge amount of confusion and disagreement on the subject regarding to what/how/why so obviously there can be no consensus at this point.
> 
> 
> You and Ohoh are the only ones who seem to be confused.


As per norm. I'm surprised ENT hasn't chimed in yet.

----------


## harrybarracuda

They may not have done anything wrong with MH17, but you seriously have to wonder about the intelligence of the people running Malaysia operations....




> Malaysia Airlines flew over Syria
> REUTERS
> JUL 22, 2014
> 
> KUALA LUMPUR – Malaysia Airlines rerouted a flight over Syria on Sunday after its usual path over Ukraine was closed, reflecting the challenges airlines face in finding conflict-free routes between Asia and Europe.
> 
> After Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 was shot down Thursday by a ground-to-air missile in eastern Ukraine, airlines began to avoid the airspace above where the Ukrainian military has been fighting Russian-backed rebels.
> 
> Swedish flight tracking service Flightradar24 AB posted a flight map on its Twitter account on Monday showing the change in the route of Malaysian Airlines flight MH4, which flies from Kuala Lumpur to London.
> ...


Malaysia Airlines flew over Syria | The Japan Times

----------


## harrybarracuda

A little background on how the Russians separatists have been caught lying.




> Perhaps no one knows that better than Igor Girkin, a pro-Russian separatist leader whose hyperactive profile on Vkontakte, Russia's Facebook clone, is regularly saved by the Wayback Machine. The administrators of Girkin's page post updates on the Ukrainian conflict from news sources, news conferences and from Girkin himself. In fact, if you check the page now, you'll see no fewer than a dozen updates on the crash, all blaming it squarely on the Ukrainian air force.
> 
> *But there was an earlier update, now deleted, made shortly before the crash went public:
> 
> "In the vicinity of Torez, we just downed a plane, an AN-26. It is lying somewhere in the Progress Mine. We have issued warnings not to fly in our airspace. We have video confirming. The bird fell on a waste heap. Residential areas were not hit. Civilians were not injured."*
> 
> *Page administrators later tried to scrub that message, deleting it, posting a disclaimer distancing the page from Girkin and quoting a number of news stories that implicated the Ukrainians. They could not, however, remove the screen grab from Internet Archive, where it now lives with 45 other versions of Girkin's page.*


Plus there is their sneaky Wiki edit that they didn't realise was broadcast on Twitter.

How Wayback Machine and other digital sleuths are unravelling the mystery of MH17

----------


## titan

some how the separatists got hold of a buk whatever and used it on what they thought was a military transport plane , resulting in a civilian airline being shot down .

----------


## Takeovers

> some how the separatists got hold of a buk whatever and used it on what they thought was a military transport plane , resulting in a civilian airline being shot down .


Nobody just gets hold of this kind of weapon system and uses it. It requires a well trained crew to launch a missile. According to a post in a space related forum it takes a trained crew of over 20.

But yes, they were not aware it is a civilian plane. They seem to have thought it is a military cargo plane. Quite stupid but that happens when you take a crew out if its normal command and control structure and send it to Ukraine without logistics support.

----------


## bobo746

Blame the Jews they deserve it.

----------


## Chittychangchang

> Originally Posted by rickschoppers
> 
> OK, so what is the CONSENSUS?
> 
> 
> There isn't one.
> 
> There's a huge amount of confusion and disagreement on the subject regarding to what/how/why so obviously there can be no consensus at this point.


The consensus could be that the Ukranians shot the plane down in order for a massive worldwide anti Russian surge/sanctions that will result in Russia withdrawing its support for the rebels.
Let's face it, the Russians have had it coming for a long time!
Also the downed plane takes the spotlight of the extermination of Gaza.
 ::spin::

----------


## Lancelot

> Blame the Jews they deserve it.


Nah, you deserve it more for the puke green hair  :Smile:

----------


## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by titan
> 
> some how the separatists got hold of a buk whatever and used it on what they thought was a military transport plane , resulting in a civilian airline being shot down .
> 
> 
> Nobody just gets hold of this kind of weapon system and uses it. It requires a well trained crew to launch a missile. According to a post in a space related forum it takes a trained crew of over 20.
> 
> But yes, they were not aware it is a civilian plane. They seem to have thought it is a military cargo plane. Quite stupid but that happens when you take a crew out if its normal command and control structure and send it to Ukraine without logistics support.


Why would they need a Russian crew,  the missile base allegedly taken, with ease, would have crews. Some would be pro separatist, instant crew. Jim

----------


## Chittychangchang

> Originally Posted by titan
> 
> some how the separatists got hold of a buk whatever and used it on what they thought was a military transport plane , resulting in a civilian airline being shot down .
> 
> 
> Nobody just gets hold of this kind of weapon system and uses it. It requires a well trained crew to launch a missile. According to a post in a space related forum it takes a trained crew of over 20.
> 
> But yes, they were not aware it is a civilian plane. They seem to have thought it is a military cargo plane. Quite stupid but that happens when you take a crew out if its normal command and control structure and send it to Ukraine without logistics support.


Throw a case of vodka into the mix as well.
According to the British PM they were pissed up.
It keeps getting worse

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> some how the separatists got hold of a buk whatever and used it on what they thought was a military transport plane , resulting in a civilian airline being shot down .







> The consensus could be that the Ukranians shot the plane down in order for a massive worldwide anti Russian surge/sanctions that will result in Russia withdrawing its support for the rebels.


So do we have a consensus?

 :Smile:

----------


## Mr Earl

> So do we have a consensus?


According to Russian media spin the CIA did it.

much like how the CIA armed the Mujahadeen with stinger missiles in Afghanistan which caused the Soviet defeat and withdrawal.

It was probably a CIA micro drone implanted in one of the Russians missile crews which signaled the missile launch.

----------


## harrybarracuda

The consensus in most of the world is that russian separatists did it.

In the Russian media it's all Ukraine's doing.

In the minds of the tin foil hat brigade, they pretty well follow anything Russia says because it's against the West.

----------


## jamescollister

> The consensus in most of the world is that russian separatists did it.
> 
> In the Russian media it's all Ukraine's doing.
> 
> In the minds of the tin foil hat brigade, they pretty well follow anything Russia says because it's against the West.


Not read anywhere western involvement [link]

By the way, separatist equates to self determination, we [west ] support that.
They want to be part off Russia, have a vote, don't bomb them.

If they were fighting the Russians, they'd be freedom fighters. Jim

----------


## thaimeme

There is an insightful opinion piece in the 21 July Washington Post by Eugene Robinson....associating American worldwide armament sells, wars, civil strife, etc.

Comes back to haunt.

----------


## Waid

Was present 'Eastern Ukraine' ever part of historic Russia? Not talking about USSR times.

What language is predominantly spoken in Eastern Ukraine?

What happened to the results of the referendum in terms of cession from Ukraine?

Why is the US still meddling in other country's internal affairs?

----------


## OhOh

> The consensus in most of the world is that russian separatists did it.


Can you let me know who counted the numbers on this, I presume CNN have a tally somewhere? Or do you count only the minutes of media coverage of the countries of the world for and against your statement - less of course the Teddy Bear conspirators.

Before you say it, yes I do live in a different world it seems to you. But mine is a peaceful and tolerant one.  We understand the difficulties of the "Other Worldies" and despair at their actions sometimes.

----------


## thaimeme

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> The consensus in most of the world is that russian separatists did it.
> 
> 
> Can you let me know who counted the numbers on this, I presume CNN have a tally somewhere? Or do you count only the minutes of media coverage of the countries of the world for and against your statement - less of course the Teddy Bear conspirators.
> 
> Before you say it, yes I do live in a different world it seems to you. But mine is a peaceful and tolerant one. We understand the difficulties of the "Other Worldies" and despair at their actions sometimes.


Never mind.
Some prefer to speak out of their ass to justify their perspective and agendas.
Using broad and irrelevant generalities.

----------


## OhOh

> The consensus in most of the world is that russian separatists did it.


The  consensus is flawed. I for my part have not announced my decision. 

I  await the evidence, as opposed to the others, who make up the vast majority  of the 

 

brigade here. 

No problem, many have broad shoulders here.

----------


## OhOh

> Tim Clark, president of Emirates Airlines, one of the world’s largest airlines, said it was difficult to avoid flying over conflict zones on main routes between East and West.


Any airlines or routes available from Europe to Asia that don't fly over a war zone?




> The consensus could be that


Get with the program, if harry says what the consensus is you accept it. Otherwise you can't stay in "Other Worldies" holiday camp. He will sanction you with non - effective sanctions and insinuate that you are automatically suffering from an undiagnosed illness.

----------


## thaimeme

So..if we are playing the blame game, I might get to the root - the acquisition of weapons and arms.

Who unconsciously is [far and away] the largest arms whore in the world?

All the while pounding the hypocrisy about such problems worldwide.
This contradictory is big business.

Ethics and morals don't enter.

----------


## blue

crass media as always
here's  sky news reporter going through a suitcase...

----------


## OhOh

^I call a fake. It has been reported that the separatists fired warning shots and chased away everyone.

----------


## Chittychangchang

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> Tim Clark, president of Emirates Airlines, one of the worlds largest airlines, said it was difficult to avoid flying over conflict zones on main routes between East and West.
> 
> 
> Any airlines or routes available from Europe to Asia that don't fly over a war zone?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So what is your consensus?
You must have a consensus!
Everybody has at least a speculative consensus of the facts thus far..

----------


## thaimeme

The consensus is that wars and militarism is big big business.

----------


## Chittychangchang

> The consensus is that wars and militarism is big big business.


Indeed never a truer consensus albeit slightly adrift of the topic.

What we need is a overall agreement, harmony, concord, like-mindedness, concurrence, consent, common consent, accord, unison, unity, unanimity, oneness, solidarity and consensus without the tautology.

CCC

----------


## wasabi

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
>  I wonder if the Black Boxes will be found to have been opened and tampered with?
> 
> 
> Do they have to be opened to access the data? They must have a data port on the outside, I am sure on another thread it was determined that they all come with USB sockets now. 
> 
> Update ,,, Initial inspection of the newly released black boxes indicate that it was originally fitted in MH370.


The Black ( red ) boxes are coming to England.

----------


## OhOh

CNN have released a photo from a US source showing the alleged missile launch.

Ukraine opens criminal cases against two Russians - CNN.com



I will await the CNN expert or someone versed in the use of Google Earth to comment on the accuracy and authenticity of the image. No news as the source of the data or whether anyone has sent it to the International Investigators to be verified.

Weather looks clear - no thunderstorms around.

The place of launch is allegedly Snizhne, which is 21Km (20 minutes -  outside rush hour) from the Russian border and allegedly in the hands of the separatists at the time.

----------


## rickschoppers

Looking at the picture of the proposed trajectory, I am still a little confused. Don't passenger aircraft have a different transponder signal than military aircraft? Aren't the weapons systems able to tell if what they are shooting at is military vs civilian?

----------


## rickschoppers

I just found the answer to my own question.

Rebel SAM System Lacked ID Capability | Military.com

----------


## OhOh

> Don't passenger aircraft have a different transponder signal than military aircraft?


Unfortunately the MH plane was using a different channel for it's transponder. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Similar to the Iranian plane shot down by the USA a few years ago. That explanation seemed to satisfy "World" opinion at the time. The captain of the ship who ordered the launch even got a medal for his efforts from the US President.

----------


## Thormaturge

That is so crass.

 How can the contents of a dead passenger's luggage be newsworthy?




> crass media as always
> here's  sky news reporter going through a suitcase...

----------


## OhOh

It takes more than two weeks "reporter training" to forget what he practiced when he worked on baggage handling at heathrow?

----------


## OhOh

A Times of India report from an Air India flight 90 seconds behind the MH flight who overheard conversations between Ukrainian ATC and MH ordering a new flight path.

_"__Minutes before the crash caused by a missile strike, the AI pilots had  also heard the controller give the Malaysian aircraft MH17 what is  called "a direct routing". This permits an aircraft to fly straight,  instead of tracking the regular route which is generally a zig-zag track  that goes from one ground-based navigation aid or way point to another.  "Direct routing saves fuel and time and is preferred by pilots. In this  case, it proved fatal," said an airline source. "_


Air India flight was 90 seconds away when missile struck Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 - The Times of India

----------


## steevee

I've been waiting for what, to me, seems an obvious question. If, as the rebels claim, they identified the plane as a transport aircraft, why is it flying at 33,000ft?. That altitude is cruising altitude for an international flight. A transport plane on a mission somewhere within this area of Ukraine would be much more likely to be at a lower altitude, having recently taken off or near to landing.

----------


## rickschoppers

They were trigger happy. Kids with a new toy. How else can you explain it other than total ignorance?

----------


## bsnub

> The consensus is that wars and militarism is big big business.


As usual you have contributed nothing to the thread other then dribble.




> Weather looks clear - no thunderstorms around.


That's because the image is timestamped from 2010. You really examined the image closely to have missed that.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

It doesn't take a genius to put the pieces together here. What is difficult to comprehend is how a rational human being can turn a blind eye to the mountain of evidence that had been splashed all over social media and the rest of the internet. 

Some people just chose to life in an alternate reality. Yes the world is flat.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Mr Earl

They're gonna sweep this under the rug I reckon. 
https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-no-evi...-politics.html

----------


## zygote1

The excuses offered up to exonerate Putin and  his militia thugs bring to mind the excuses western communists would make for  Stalin.  The weak kneed response of Europe in the face of an aggressor are a repeat of the appeasement  policies of the 1930's. France is still intent on selling its helicopter warships  to Russia and won't let anything get in its way. Mrs. Von Ribbentrop, aka Merkel has to protect her financial interests. Austria and Italy need their energy supply.  Is it any wonder the Baltic states who were savagely occupied by both Russia and Germany are apoplectic over this event? Is it any wonder why Poland betrayed by both Russia and Germany is lobbying the USA and Canada so hard?  It took the slaughter of its nationals to push the Netherlands away from its hesitation on Russian sanctions in response to the defacto Russian  invasion of the Ukraine. And now once again it falls upon the shoulders of the developed western world to bail Europe out of a mess of its own making. Unfortunately, this time around, neither the USA, nor Canada are going to send their youth to die so that the ungrateful Continental Europeans  can  maintain their freedom. France and Germany can  ask their soon to be majority muslim populations to help keep the barbarians out. We'll see how effective that is. In the meantime,  Mrs. Merkel can  pull her stasi uniform out of mothballs and get ready for the return of her Soviet masters.

----------


## Cujo

> They're gonna sweep this under the rug I reckon. 
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-no-evi...-politics.html





> WASHINGTON (AP)  Senior U.S. intelligence officials say they have no evidence of direct Russian government involvement in the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.
> They say the passenger jet was likely felled by an SA-11 surface-to-air missile fired by Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine and that Russia "created the conditions" for the downing by arming the separatists.
> The officials briefed reporters Tuesday under ground rules that their names not be used in discussing intelligence related to last week's air disaster, which killed 298 people.
> They said they did not know if any Russians were present at the missile launch, and they wouldn't say that the missile crew was trained in Russia.
> A senior official said the most likely explanation was the plane was shot down by mistake.


I concur.

----------


## leemo

> That is so crass.
> 
>  How can the contents of a dead passenger's luggage be newsworthy?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If the media make it so then it is.

----------


## pickel

> I call a fake. It has been reported that the separatists fired warning shots and chased away everyone.


Not a fake. The reporter issued an apology.

*



			
				'It was a serious error of judgement': Sky reporter Colin Brazier  apologises for rifling through suitcase of dead child - and reveals he  'lost it' when he saw pink flask identical to one belonging to his own  daughter
			
		

*

Sky News' Colin Brazier apologises for rifling through MH17 passenger's case | Mail Online

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by Mr Earl
> 
> 
> They're gonna sweep this under the rug I reckon. 
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-no-evi...-politics.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Masterful intel work....didn't we have all this figured out by about post number ten on this thread?    Did anybody think they were going to be able to pin in "directly" on Vlad or his government?   Tabloid hysteria aside,  it just does not work like that.

----------


## Bobcock

> That is so crass.
> 
> How can the contents of a dead passenger's luggage be newsworthy?


With all due respect, he apologised at the time and the news station apologised.

He has since written a long article explaining that he lost it, there was an item in the luggage that reminded him of his daughter and in a fit of emotion he picked it up....immediately realising what he had done he apologised and regrets it immensely.

A friend of mine who is a war correspondant has been in 30+ conflicts and 30+ disasters, Rwanda, Bosnia, Iraq, Tsunami Japan, Tsunami Sri Lanka, Earthquake Iran.... you name it, he was there.

His comment to me was "Wrong but understandable, anyone who has never been in a situation such as this has little right to judge him. Sometimes it is impossible not to get caught up in what surrounds you".

----------


## Troy

> It doesn't take a genius to put the pieces together here. What is difficult to comprehend is how a rational human being can turn a blind eye to the mountain of evidence that had been splashed all over social media and the rest of the internet.


So much evidence and yet the US cannot produce any that confirms Russian involvement apart from they have supplied weapons to Ukrainian rebels.

It seems that whatever John Kerry states, the opposite is true.....

UK jumping up and down about EU imposing sanctions but they haven't stopped their weapon supplies.

It was a mistake as was the air corridor being open.

Profit margin was the real crime and it will cost Malaysia its airline.

Anyway, suggestions are that the missile exploded below and forward of port wing, taking out the pilots and forward passenger section with shrapnel. Physics did the rest, with tail section coming away during the descent. Thank goodness the photos are now of aircraft bits minus the gruesome carnage...

----------


## bsnub

> So much evidence and yet the US cannot produce any that confirms Russian involvement apart from they have supplied weapons to Ukrainian rebels.


Just what do you need? They have stated that they did detect a missile launch in the rebel-controlled area at the time that the plane was shot down. There are photo's and video showing the Buk launcher going back across the Russian boarder minus one missile. The rebel commander posted on his social media page that they had shot down a plane right after MH17 went down only to scrub the post later but by then it was already too late. 

The Buk launcher is too complex for some drunk rebel to operate and it would have required a team of experienced technicians to operate it. Those technicians most likely came from Russia. 

There is more and more to post but when the tin foil brigade wants to close their eyes to reality making an effort becomes pointless.

----------


## thaimeme

Some still attach themselves to the traditional boogeyman...

----------


## VocalNeal

> I heard the US airlines did not fly the route because the FAA did not allow it, but the others did. They won't now of course.


Hyperbole. I doubt there are any US airlines flying any scheduled routes in that part of the world.

----------


## Bobcock

> Originally Posted by Troy
> 
> So much evidence and yet the US cannot produce any that confirms Russian involvement apart from they have supplied weapons to Ukrainian rebels.
> 
> 
> Just what do you need? They have stated that they did detect a missile launch in the rebel-controlled area at the time that the plane was shot down. There are photo's and video showing the Buk launcher going back across the Russian boarder minus one missile. The rebel commander posted on his social media page that they had shot down a plane right after MH17 went down only to scrub the post later but by then it was already too late. 
> 
> The Buk launcher is too complex for some drunk rebel to operate and it would have required a team of experienced technicians to operate it. Those technicians most likely came from Russia. 
> 
> There is more and more to post but when the tin foil brigade wants to close their eyes to reality making an effort becomes pointless.


bsnub....applying reasoned logic is not acceptable around the tin foil brigade....
 STOP IT!!!

----------


## Mr Earl

It's really hard to see this as anything other than an intentional act of fukwittery.

Airliner cruising 33000 on regular air route, missile launch from very sophisticated weapon system which requires sophisticated personel to operate. Missile launcher disappears back to Russia minus a missile.  It don't take rocket science to figure this one out.

----------


## jamescollister

Ukraine: Two military jets shot down - CNN.com

Lot's of 1/2 stories, don't think there would be any high altitude SAMs left in the area.
Story would mean ground attack fighters, not how I would welcome international investigates. Jim

----------


## thaimeme

> Ukraine: Two military jets shot down - CNN.com
> 
> Lot's of 1/2 stories, don't think there would be any high altitude SAMs left in the area.
> Story would mean ground attack fighters, not how I would welcome international investigates. Jim


I wouldn't become too excited about these prospects, Jim..
They're doing everything in their power to shield any type of investigation.

Obviously, it all reeks of cover-up.

----------


## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> Ukraine: Two military jets shot down - CNN.com
> 
> Lot's of 1/2 stories, don't think there would be any high altitude SAMs left in the area.
> Story would mean ground attack fighters, not how I would welcome international investigates. Jim
> 
> 
> ...


Have to agree, doesn't seem anyone wants the site properly investigated.
Too me, that means no ones sure, who did what. Jim

----------


## OhOh

Remember this guy? His "evidence" took the crusaders to war once before, to such a good ending.

----------


## thaimeme

> Remember this guy? His "evidence" took the crusaders to war once before, to such a good ending.


That's ok and quite accepted for the _"good guys"._ 

BS is their given name.

----------


## KEVIN2008

Two jet fighters shot down over Ukraine


23 JULY 2014

Ukraine's defence ministry says two of its military fighter jets have been shot down in the east of the country - just hours after black box flight recorders from the downed Malaysia Airlines plane arrived for analysis by UK crash investigators.

Two jet fighters shot down over Ukraine - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

----------


## OhOh

Don't they know it's a war zone?

----------


## OhOh

The US is sending more "advisers" to assist the Ukrainians in defending their country against the separatists. Sounds awfully similar to the US sending "advisers" to the South Vietnamese to help defend against the "separatists" of  what became North Vietnam._

Eerie.

Obama orders Pentagon advisers to Ukraine - Washington Times

__"A team of Pentagon officials is heading to Ukraine  to help the country rebuild its fractured military, a mission that  lawmakers and analysts expect will result in recommendations for greater  military assistance in the countrys fight against pro-Russia separatists amid international outrage over the downing of a commercial airplane._
_Within the next few weeks, a group of Defense Department  representatives who specialize in strategy and policy will head to Kiev  to evaluate specific programs that the United States may want to help  bolster, said Army Col. Steve Warren, a Pentagon spokesman._

_Their objective is to work with Ukrainians to shape and establish an enduring program for future U.S. efforts to support the Ukrainian military through subject-matter expert teams and long-term advisers, he said."_


Let's hope the program doesn't include sending US troops to die for another lost cause.

----------


## helge

They can bunk up with the CIA

And it seems fair that Obama does something to protect his substantial investment in the ukrainian "activists", whose "education" he funded, and who overthrew the legally elected government

----------


## blue

Ukraine is  big country ,Why don't they just let the Russian have a little bit of the East, maybe for some debt reduction ?
why do they want areas full of another nationality in their country
.
At the same time they are fighting  over losing land, they want to join the European union. and lose all sovereignty,, does not make sense...

Anyway i'm glad the cold war is back, I was getting bored with Al Qaida- who just didn't cut the mustard as a good foe recently.

----------


## helge

> Ukraine is  big country ,Why don't they just let the Russian have a little bit of the East, maybe for some debt reduction ?
> why do they want areas full of another nationality in their country
> .


Hello Blue

Hows the Israel thread going ? :Smile: 

Might be the solution

Dangerous precedence to set though

----------


## Troy

> Just what do you need? They have stated that they did detect a missile launch in the rebel-controlled area at the time that the plane was shot down. There are photo's and video showing the Buk launcher going back across the Russian boarder minus one missile. The rebel commander posted on his social media page that they had shot down a plane right after MH17 went down only to scrub the post later but by then it was already too late. 
> 
> The Buk launcher is too complex for some drunk rebel to operate and it would have required a team of experienced technicians to operate it. Those technicians most likely came from Russia. 
> 
> There is more and more to post but when the tin foil brigade wants to close their eyes to reality making an effort becomes pointless.







That's a little embarrassing don't you think....courtesy of pprune

----------


## helge

Gone downhill for the US propaganda wise since KAL 007 days

----------


## OhOh

Seems the Dutch are now acknowledging the excellent work of the separatists at the crash site.




The germans are also questioning the value of sanctions against the Russians.

_"MOSCOW, July 23 (RIA Novosti) - Further sanctions  against Moscow, targeting entire sectors of the Russian economy, are  not a justified tool for solving a political conflict and threaten the  global economic stability, German Chamber of Industry and Commerce  (DIHK) chief Martin Wansleben said in an interview with German Passau  Neue Presse on Wednesday._ _Further sanctions targeting entire sectors of the economy are not a justified tool to solve the political conflict, Wansleben said.  Russia is among the Germanys  top-10 trade partners. 300,000 jobs in Germany depend on the export of  German goods to Russia. Moreover, Russia is Germanys major supplier of  oil and gas, accounting for 35 percent of the deliveries. The previously  imposed sanctions have already negatively affected economic relations  between Russia and Germany, Wansleben told Passau Neue Presse."_


Further Sanctions Against Russia Unjustified, Threaten Global Economic Stability - Germany | Politics | RIA Novosti

----------


## zygote1

[QUOTE=bsnub;2825490.[/QUOTE]

The shooting down of 2 Ukrainian aircraft in the same area as the MH jet yesterday supports your statement.

----------


## zygote1

> Seems the Dutch are now acknowledging the excellent work of the separatists at the crash site.


What a crock of horse manure. That was  diplomatic doublespeak in order to get the bodies out and to allow  the investigators to do their work.
There are still bits and pieces of bodies  scattered  all over the  murder site. The genius Ukrainians took chain saws to the wreckage as they were looting anything they deemed valuable.  The  terrorists you seek to praise remain  violent thugs.

----------


## koman

> There are still bits and pieces of bodies  scattered  all over the  murder site.


90-100 apparently.  Ohho is a big supporter of thugs, terrorists, murderers etc.....anything that's anti-American, or even vaguely anti-Western qualifies for Ohho support.... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

I wonder if the "separatist" leadership received some kick-ass instructions from Moscow.  Like... " Stop  making us all look stupid...put down the Vodka, stop looting the baggage and acting like goons in front of all those cameras.   We have a PR campaign to win here....you dumb bastards."... :Smile:

----------


## leemo

> Originally Posted by OhOh
> 
> 
> Seems the Dutch are now acknowledging the excellent work of the separatists at the crash site.
> 
> 
> What a crock of horse manure. That was  diplomatic doublespeak in order to get the bodies out and to allow  the investigators to do their work.
> There are still bits and pieces of bodies  scattered  all over the  murder site. The genius Ukrainians took chain saws to the wreckage as they were looting anything they deemed valuable.  The  terrorists you seek to praise remain  violent thugs.


Some people praise the murderer for telling the authorities where his victims are buried. Ain't that so, ohfok?

----------


## Lancelot

^ Agreed. Putin has backed off a bit and called for 'those responsible' to take responsibility...

----------


## Bobcock

BBC reported that there are pieces of wreckage from other planes being dumped in the area to confuse the issue.

----------


## Seekingasylum

Clearly, the pusillanimous western leaders are offering an out to the Russian prick that if the Russian goons in Ukraine accept responsibility and some patsy is offered as a sacrificial lamb then all will be forgiven.

No country's politicians are prepared to prejudice their commercial relationship with the Russians and the families of those slaughtered can go hang. That's the sum of it. If I were Dutch I'd be manning the barricades and no member of their government would sleep safe in their bed. The gutless behaviour of the Malaysians is simply repulsive.

There is no integrity left anymore. The world is nothing more than a garbage tip infested by money grubbers and callow politicians feeding off the back of opportunity.

----------


## MeMock

Another jet plane has crashed. This time in Northern Africa.

----------


## thaimeme

> Clearly, the pusillanimous western leaders are offering an out to the Russian prick that if the Russian goons in Ukraine accept responsibility and some patsy is offered as a sacrificial lamb then all will be forgiven.
> 
> No country's politicians are prepared to prejudice their commercial relationship with the Russians and the families of those slaughtered can go hang. That's the sum of it. If I were Dutch I'd be manning the barricades and no member of their government would sleep safe in their bed. The gutless behaviour of the Malaysians is simply repulsive.
> 
> There is no integrity left anymore. The world is nothing more than a garbage tip infested by money grubbers and callow politicians feeding off the back of opportunity.


Just waking up to this?
And such will continue.

----------


## jamescollister

Think politicians should keep their mouth shut, or carry toilet paper when they speak.
Australia, cow named Bishop, foreign minister, Putin's fault for allowing the looting, ergo G Bush allowed looting, rape and murder in New Orleans {Katrina}.
Russkies are looking less and less responsible, blame shifting has begun, separatist may be responsible, but if the US and others, seen the missiles going, they saw them coming.
If the separatist took a missile base in June, with PUK  missiles, intel would have know of the threat. Why not tell the airlines to keep clear.
Areas Russian speaking Ukrainians, who would man such a base, blame game and cover up any responsibility.

I actually trust Putin more than our great leaders, he seems in-charge, unlike the stuffed suits in the west, who take orders. 

Question, what would Putin do, if he found a fcuk up and what would we do. Jim

----------


## Kurgen

A very valid point you have Jim.

----------


## OhOh

> Question, what would Putin do, if he found a fcuk up and what would we do. Jim


 From my post No. 391  The US response to a similar situation.   &quot;Similar to the Iranian plane shot down by the USA a few years ago. That explanation seemed to satisfy &quot;World&quot; opinion at the time. The captain of the ship who ordered the launch even got a medal for his efforts from the US President.&quot;    The Russian response to the situation where &quot;locals&quot; were shooting at Russians allegedly was a warning, &quot; one more shot from your village members and we will flatten your village&quot;. The shooting stopped.    The EU would form a committee and offer a referendum on the question in 3 years, if the present members had not be voted out. In the meantime calling for sanctions from other member state but excluding their own.    The Isrealis would bomb from 10,000 m until there were no &quot;fighters&quot; left. After offering to negotiate for 30 years and stealing the land , water, .............    The Thais would have a coup and the average Thai would ask &quot;Will you give me some money&quot;.    The Australians would have a beer at the beach or go and shoot a kangaroo.    The French would say, &quot;let us finish the cheese before I answer that&quot;.    Apologies if I have missed a nationality.

----------


## OhOh

[quote=Lancelot;2826045]^ Agreed. Putin has backed off a bit and called for 'those responsible' to take responsibility...
  It seems the guilty parties have resigned.  From Bloomberg : Ukraine Coalition Government Collapses as 2 Parties Quit - Bloomberg  &quot;Ukraines coalition collapsed after two parties quit during a months-long pro-Russian insurgency in the nations east that downed a Malaysian Air jet last week.  The UDAR and Svoboda parties said theyd leave the government and seek a snap parliamentary ballot, according to statements today on their websites. Under the constitution, the former Soviet republic has 30 days to form a new coalition or it must call early elections. The existing cabinet will remain in place in the meantime.  Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuks government, took over the country in February after pro-European street protests prompted Kremlin-backed President Viktor Yanukovych to flee to Russia. Yanukovychs successor, billionaire Petro Poroshenko, had pledged to call parliamentary elections this year.  We will probably have snap parliamentary elections at the end of October, Yuriy Yakymenko, the head of political research at the Razumkov Center, said by phone from Kiev today. This option was probably agreed on by political parties seeking elections and the president. &quot;

----------


## Cujo

[QUOTE=OhOh;2826376]


> ^ Agreed. Putin has backed off a bit and called for 'those responsible' to take responsibility...
>   It seems the guilty parties have resigned.  From Bloomberg : Ukraine Coalition Government Collapses as 2 Parties Quit - Bloomberg  &quot;Ukraines coalition collapsed after two parties quit during a months-long pro-Russian insurgency in the nations east that downed a Malaysian Air jet last week.  The UDAR and Svoboda parties said theyd leave the government and seek a snap parliamentary ballot, according to statements today on their websites. Under the constitution, the former Soviet republic has 30 days to form a new coalition or it must call early elections. The existing cabinet will remain in place in the meantime.  Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuks government, took over the country in February after pro-European street protests prompted Kremlin-backed President Viktor Yanukovych to flee to Russia. Yanukovychs successor, billionaire Petro Poroshenko, had pledged to call parliamentary elections this year.  We will probably have snap parliamentary elections at the end of October, Yuriy Yakymenko, the head of political research at the Razumkov Center, said by phone from Kiev today. This option was probably agreed on by political parties seeking elections and the president. &quot;


And you connect this to the downing of the aircraft how?

----------


## Seekingasylum

> Think politicians should keep their mouth shut, or carry toilet paper when they speak.
> Australia, cow named Bishop, foreign minister, Putin's fault for allowing the looting, ergo G Bush allowed looting, rape and murder in New Orleans {Katrina}.
> Russkies are looking less and less responsible, blame shifting has begun, separatist may be responsible, but if the US and others, seen the missiles going, they saw them coming.
> If the separatist took a missile base in June, with PUK  missiles, intel would have know of the threat. Why not tell the airlines to keep clear.
> Areas Russian speaking Ukrainians, who would man such a base, blame game and cover up any responsibility.
> 
> I actually trust Putin more than our great leaders, he seems in-charge, unlike the stuffed suits in the west, who take orders. 
> 
> Question, what would Putin do, if he found a fcuk up and what would we do. Jim


He's an unprincipled thuggish megalomaniac who wants to rebuild the Soviet empire with himself as a proto - Stalin. To state you trust him one assumes you mean he can be relied upon to act in a barbaric and duplicitous manner.

The SA -  11 Buk missile system is not one that falls into the wrong hands and you pick up its operation as you go along. It takes months to train personnel to operate it. For Chrissakes, what is wrong with people. It is Russian supplied weaponry operated by Russians who shot down the aircraft and then pissed off over the border.

Get a grip man. Stuck up in the boonies is clearly doing nothing for your perspective.

----------


## helge

> I actually trust Putin more than our great leaders,


So do I, Jim

That said; I think Putin is a lying, manipulative, cynical thieving [at][at][at][at]

----------


## OhOh

^^^ 1. a call was made for somebody to take responsibility 2. The Ukrainian parliament debated (clue 1) and took the blame (clue 2) and then, in utter shame, disbanded parliament (clue 3).  Cluedo 101.

----------


## OhOh

[quote=thegent;2826451]


> Think politicians should keep their mouth shut, or carry toilet paper when they speak.
> 
> Stuck up in the boonies is clearly doing nothing for your perspective.


 It does of course give one time a space to consider alternatives!

----------


## bsnub

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> Think politicians should keep their mouth shut, or carry toilet paper when they speak.
> Australia, cow named Bishop, foreign minister, Putin's fault for allowing the looting, ergo G Bush allowed looting, rape and murder in New Orleans {Katrina}.
> Russkies are looking less and less responsible, blame shifting has begun, separatist may be responsible, but if the US and others, seen the missiles going, they saw them coming.
> If the separatist took a missile base in June, with PUK  missiles, intel would have know of the threat. Why not tell the airlines to keep clear.
> Areas Russian speaking Ukrainians, who would man such a base, blame game and cover up any responsibility.
> 
> ...


Spot on but you will never sway the tin foil hat brigade.

----------


## Cujo

> ^^^ 1. a call was made for somebody to take responsibility 2. The Ukrainian parliament debated (clue 1) and took the blame (clue 2) and then, in utter shame, disbanded parliament (clue 3).  Cluedo 101.


I haven't seen it stated anywhere that the Ukraine government took the blame. Are you just assuming that? If not can you back that up with a link to a report from a reputable source which makes that claim?

----------


## zygote1

> ^^^ 1. a call was made for somebody to take responsibility 2. The Ukrainian parliament debated (clue 1) and took the blame (clue 2) and then, in utter shame, disbanded parliament (clue 3).  Cluedo 101.


Rubbish. You just make up your stories, albeit with help from the New Soviet Union propaganda outlets.

The PM had made clear months ago  that his tenure was to be short term. He was there to shepherd the IMF fiscal requirements through. The Ukraine has a coalition government and the intent was made clear long ago that there would be elections in  the fall. This was public knowledge months ago.

Associated Press provides this succinct summary;
_When he took office, Yatsenyuks administration was expected to be a brief one because it was taking over with the government almost broke and facing the likelihood of adopting unpopular measures to satisfy conditions for rescue loans from the International Monetary Fund. 
_
_He was put in office by a coalition of parties that took power after Yanukovych was driven from office by months of street protests. The protests began over Yanukovychs refusal to sign a sweeping trade deal with the European Union, but swelled over disgust with corruption and government attempts to suppress the protests.
_

----------


## OhOh

I agree a far fetched theory, not unlike many that are considered to be the "concensus"  based on other's propaganda.

----------


## bsnub

> I agree a far fetched theory,


So why beat a dead horse?

----------


## OhOh

> So why beat a dead horse?


Being an opera fan I always wait for  the fat lady to sing. Or when it disappears from page one the "world consensus" is complete?

The onsite inspectors are working.- Yes
The orange box is being downloaded.- Yes
The Russians have provided a snapshot of their evidence.- Yes
The US  has presented their "social media" evidence. Oh no all theirs plus NATOs evidence is still being "created"
The Ukrainians have presented their ATC evidence - Oh no that is still lost.

I am still waiting, the chorus has sung, the tenor is warming up, Callas is still in the bath tub. Act one of this three act production surely. Maybe you go for the three minute pop act.

Do you agree with the hounding out of Holland of Putins daughter is the way to treat this issue?

----------


## thaimeme

[quote=OhOh;2826486]


> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> Think politicians should keep their mouth shut, or carry toilet paper when they speak.
> 
> Stuck up in the boonies is clearly doing nothing for your perspective.
> 
> 
> It does of course give one time a space to consider alternatives!


Lack of exposure can certainly do wonders for one's soul, less perspective.
Inundation to overt stimulation [news, info, etc] creates a mindless and narrow dullard.

----------


## pseudolus

UKraine PM resigned. 

Well, he was never elected, just an appointed shill. 

I wonder if this might see an end to hostilities and perhaps an election? 

Doubt it. Wonder who washington will appoint as his successor?

----------


## Pragmatic

> to allow the investigators to do their work.


Investigate what? The seperatists acknowledge they shot the plane down.

----------


## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by zygote1
> 
>  to allow the investigators to do their work.
> 
> 
> Investigate what? The seperatists acknowledge they shot the plane down.


Couple of years ago, Thailand claimed they shot down a Cambodian spy plane, with a SAM. On TV and in western press, I posted some where, day after, explosion was very high altitude, shuck my  house and village, not a plane, nor missile.
Week or so after, Chinese space craft, blow up before it made orbit.

Sometimes people take credit for things they didn't do, facts get lost in a good story.
On this one, will await some facts, before I believe the story. Jim

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> On this one, will await some facts, before I believe the story. Jim


Me too mate.

----------


## thaimeme

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> On this one, will await some facts, before I believe the story. Jim
> 
> 
> Me too mate.


Yes...
Too many suspicious connections to come to any condemning conclusions.
The cover-ups might be extended and deeper than we are considering.

Naturally, throughout many circles, it is black and white. The bad guys.

Who are the bad guys, anyway?
Answers might be shocking and unbelievable.

----------


## billy the kid

someone mentioned Ukraine destroying some flight data concerning 2 of their jets in the air at the same time the MH17 went down.
at the mo we have a trial by the western media.
yet no facts emerging.

----------


## Necron99

*MH17 black box data tells of explosion*

Data retrieved from the ill-fated MH17 flight black box shows the plane was hit multiple times by shrapnel from a missile explosion.
As the clean-up of the wreckage site continues in Grabovo, Ukraine, European officials have described the finding as massive explosive decompression, CBS News reports.
On Saturday, a European air safety official told the news organisation that the missile did what it was designed to do - bring down airplanes.

Although Australian, Malaysian and Dutch investigators have been scouring the site for days, they are yet to unearth more solid evidence establishing the cause of the crash, such as the sort of blast holes than an exploding missile might make through a plane. 
Advertisement  
Personal belongings, passports and identification cards are still being found, along with human remains scattered around the site. 
As Australian and Dutch governments scramble to secure deals with key players to enable a safe and thorough investigation, Prime Minister Tony Abbott said on Friday he would deploy Australian Defence Force personnel as soon as security clearance was granted.


Read more: MH17 black box data tells of explosion

----------


## Neverna

> Prime Minister Tony Abbott said on Friday he would deploy Australian Defence Force personnel as soon as security clearance was granted.


In Ukraine? Provocative?

----------


## thaimeme

> Originally Posted by Necron99
> 
> 
> Prime Minister Tony Abbott said on Friday he would deploy Australian Defence Force personnel as soon as security clearance was granted.
> 
> 
> In Ukraine? Provocative?


That's how these things escalate - buttinskis.

I do wish that the greater Anglo-American community would fuk off.
Still the greatest instigator of evil.

Wonder how PM Abbott might approach this situation if he wasn't sucking on a US/UK hind teet?

----------


## OhOh

Another two days go by and still no evidence from the "I can read a newspaper from outer space satellite cameras" alleged that the NATO forces had over the missile launch site.

 ::chitown:: 

Stop press Google earth map provider, Digital Globe,  has published "evidence" of shell craters in Eastern Ukraine.

----------


## OhOh

No new evidence from the for another day. I wonder if they have any they would dare to release?

----------


## thaimeme

> No new evidence from the for another day. I wonder if they have any they would dare to release?


Mainstream news sources have gone elsewhere. The trend has faded.
Quick to forget.

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by OhOh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No new evidence from the for another day. I wonder if they have any they would dare to release?
> 
> 
> Mainstream news sources have gone elsewhere. The trend has faded.
> Quick to forget.


Deep, man, deep.

----------


## koman

What "evidence" would you guys like?   No amount of evidence is ever enough it seems.

  Do you seriously think that the US would release specific data from one of it's spy satellites?    The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming that the pro-Russian "freedom fighters" fired the missile, which had been recently supplied by Mother Russia....  What is sooooo difficult about that?

   If the Russians have any kind of real evidence that somebody else did it....where is it?....or do you always just automatically give the Russians the benefit of the doubt.....

----------


## OhOh

The new crusaders are doing just fine with a small pinch of salt occasionally from Russia.

----------


## OhOh

CNN announce that the US have told them they monitored 3 ground to ground missile launches from Ukrainian military in the last 35 hours. No  location or what damage the missiles caused or any details given.




US still has not released any evidence of the separatists alleged missile launch which allegedly caused the MH flight to crash.  :Confused: 

Some Germans disagree and claim an air to air missile or cannon fire from a fighter plane caused the MH plane to crash.

NEW MH17 SENSATION: German experts point finger at Ukrainian air-force jets. | InvestmentWatch

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

*Surface to air missile attack ruled out as calibre of cockpit bullet holes puts Ukraine pilots in the frame for MH17 murders*

This is what a German pilot-cum-air technology expert Peter Haisenko has just published on the subject of the MH17 disaster (my emphases):

‘The misfortune of the Malaysian MH 017 is known to all. The flight
recorder is in England and is being evaluated. What can come of this?
May be more than you want to accept….if you look at the image of
Cockpit-Fragments, this picture is certainly shocking.
Entry And Exit holes from bullets in the area of the Cockpit. This is not speculation, but analysis of clear facts: the cockpit
shows clear evidence of bullet holes. You can see the entry holes and
some exit points. The edges of the bullet holes are bent inwards,
these are much smaller and round in shape. A 30mm calibre. The exit
holes are less well formed and the edges are torn outwards.
Furthermore it is visible that the exit holes have torn the double
aluminium skin and bent them outwards. That is to say, splinters from
inside the cockpit blew through the outside of the cabin. The open
rivets have also been bent outwards….There is only one conclusion one can make, and that is that this: the
aircraft was not hit by a missile. The damage to the aircraft is
exclusively in the cockpit area….

Armour-Piercing Ammunition. Russia has published radar data that a
Ukranian SU 25 was close to MH 017. this corresponds with Spanish air
traffic control that two Ukranian fighter aircraft were in direct
contact with MH 017. Examine the weaponry of the SU 25: it is fitted
out with a 30mm cannon Type GSch-302 /AO-17A, with 250 rounds of
splintering exploding bullets on a belt – shrapnel rounds. The cockpit
of MH 017 was hit from TWO sides, as there are entry and exit holes on
the same side….’
Very compelling stuff, is it not?

Now read this (also German) article by defence expert Bernd Biederman, who offers equally sound reasons why the
shooting down could NOT have been from a surface to air missile:

‘ the shooting down of the Malaysian
Boeing on July 17 in the Eastern Ukraine “could not have been hit by a
surface to air defense missile” .

This is the assessment of retired Colonel Bernd Biedermann in an
article for the daily newspaper published in Berlin “new Germany”
(Thursday edition). Had splinters from a surface to air missile hit
the plane, it would have immediately caught fire, argues the NVA
anti-aircraft missile specialist. His reasoning is because of the
“enormous frictional heat that the splinters generate on penetrating
the fuselage. A single splinter contains the same kinetic energy as a
40-ton freight car hitting the buffers at 60 kilometers per hour.” In
the case of the Malaysian Boeing, scattered fires had broken out after
the impact with the ground, because hot debris from the aircraft had
come in contact with combustible materials.

Biedermann is familiar with Soviet and Russian air defense technology,
he led units in the duty officer system in East Germany and taught at
the Military Academy in the field of anti-aircraft missile troops.’

Articles are beginning to appear across the Web to the effect that Angela Merkel is disturbed by (and growing tired of) the incessant US propaganda being emitted in favour of its energy agenda….and so we must perhaps in turn view these articles in the light of her alleged new agenda concerning the creation of an alternative bloc to that of America. (More on this here in the near future).

But spin or not, these analyses make sense. The US State Dept has now shifted its position from ‘Russian atrocity’ to ‘tragic accident’. The above opinions suggest that neither are true: they suggest strongly that the Ukrainian air force took out MH17.

Read more at NEW MH17 SENSATION: German experts point finger at Ukrainian air-force jets. | InvestmentWatch

----------


## bsnub

The tinfoil nutters relentless attempts to absolve their beloved mother Russia of any blame. Laughable. 

Peter Haisenko a so-called expert who has no web presence, no papers or articles attributed to his name. He may as well be mickey mouse. 

Oh ya David Icke was quick to post this rubbish to his website. The latest word is the lizards did it.  :rofl:

----------


## koman

> Very compelling stuff, is it not?


It might be compelling if it turns out not to be more BS spouted by "experts" hell bent on deflecting responsibility from the pro-Russian rebels, and if one is prepared to just totally overlook the BUK missile launcher which was observed and photographed in the area just before the shoot-down.....and the fact that many SAM warheads also produce a large volume of shrapnel when they explode.  

Other "experts" who have been able to examine the wreckage have stated that the AC was hit by a shrapnel cloud, likely from a SAM warhead;  and that the fuselage suffered "explosive decompression" etc etc.

The next question would be "why would the Ukraine airforce shoot down a civilian airliner with full visual contact and no real chance of mistaken identity?....and knowing that they would be found out?   Does not make much sense, does it?

On the other hand; a herd of fairly drunk and stupid "freedom fighters" with a nifty new missile launcher on the ground.........

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

^^
^
 :rofl: 

So when your mafia government says "We know it was the Russians" you believe them.

But when you hear an independent specialist who's examined the wreckage you call "Tin Foil"

It is you lot that are the brainwashed myopic fools.

----------


## rickschoppers

Who can believe anything these days? Common sense has to enter into the conclusions that seem to get twisted and contorted by the "experts."

To reach any conclusion other than common sense in this case is going to be very difficult at this point.

----------


## koman

> So when your mafia government says "We know it was the Russians" you believe them.


What an extraordinarily stupid thing to say.   First of all which "mafia government" are you talking about?   Which "Russians" are we talking about?....the rebels in East Ukraine are ethnic Russians....supplied with armaments by Mother Russia...so how else should we refer to them....?  Do you have a better label for them?


Your "independent" experts are who exactly?.....Old GDR dyed in the wool communists with a lifelong axe to grind against all things Western.     Yes, very independent.   

How about all those other "experts" from places like the Netherlands, or Australia,  and other countries that have a direct interest in this event.   Are they all mafia too.....?

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> Your "independent" experts are who exactly?.....Old GDR dyed in the wool communists with a lifelong axe to grind against all things Western. Yes, very independent.


Do you know this or is this just your biased and blinkered knee-jerk reaction?

Who do you trust - the 9/11 commission?

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> Your "independent" experts are who exactly?.....Old GDR dyed in the wool communists with a lifelong axe to grind against all things Western. Yes, very independent.
> 
> 
> Do you know this or is this just your biased and blinkered knee-jerk reaction?
> 
> Who do you trust - the 9/11 commission?


Read your own article FFS.   It specifically states that:  

"Biedermann is familiar with Soviet and Russian air defense technology,
 he *led units in the duty officer system in East Germany*"   Yes, clearly an unbiased party in all this..... :rofl:  

  Have these dudes actually  "examined" the wreckage.....looks like it's been figured out from photos or something...?  ...and as always; just like everybody has an asshole, they can also have an opinion.... :Smile:

----------


## bsnub

> So when your mafia government says "We know it was the Russians" you believe them.


Your typical retort to anyone who doesn't blindly agree with you. I can assure you that I do not believe much that my government says nor do I trust them. In this case I have drawn my conclusion based on information from sources other than government ones.




> But when you hear an independent specialist who's examined the wreckage you call "Tin Foil"


He is not independent but a former pilot in the DDR air force. A pilot is by no means an "expert" in aircraft crash scene investigation. He is most likely a bitter old fool seeking his ten minutes of fame. 




> It is you lot that are the brainwashed myopic fools.


Another one of your typical responses when people disagree with your blinkered and often paranoid views. I for one agree with you on many topics, but I think you do go over the edge from time to time and this is one of those. 




> "Biedermann is familiar with Soviet and Russian air defense technology,
> he led units in the duty officer system in East Germany" Yes, clearly an unbiased party in all this.....


OOPS! Well on to the next tinfoil theory.  :rofl:

----------


## Bobcock

Do the holes in a colander reduce it's ray stopping properties?

Just asking like....

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> "Biedermann is familiar with Soviet and Russian air defense technology, he led units in the duty officer system in East Germany" Yes, clearly an unbiased party in all this....


So by your own reasoning we should trust nothing the US government comes out with as they are "Dyed in the wool capitalists who hate the commies"?




> Your typical retort to anyone who doesn't blindly agree with you. I can assure you that I do not believe much that my government says nor do I trust them. In this case I have drawn my conclusion based on information from sources other than government ones.


Well glad to hear you don't trust your government - it's a step in the right direction.




> He is not independent but a former pilot in the DDR air force. A pilot is by no means an "expert" in aircraft crash scene investigation. He is most likely a bitter old fool seeking his ten minutes of fame.


He's the representative the German government sent in first FFS. So you are saying Germany sends in a buffalo to have a look around?





> Another one of your typical responses when people disagree with your blinkered and often paranoid views. I for one agree with you on many topics, but I think you do go over the edge from time to time and this is one of those.


I don't see why you leap from one extreme to the other. What's so difficult to understand about the fact that the plane could have been downed by EITHER Russian separatists OR Ukrainian forces, and until there is (if ever) concrete proof of what happened - everything else is speculation.

However, with the form the US government has for inciting wars through nefarious means and false flags - I for one certainly don't believe a word that comes out of them.

Why is Ukraine bombing the fvck out of the site so no one can get near it.?
Destroying as much evidence as possible?

Let's hear what all the other crash investigators say first - but right now your guess is as good as mine.

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

Here's one for you Bsnub and Koman.

Maybe you will be open to listening to some Ex-US military operatives?

Posted with permission of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity.

MEMORANDUM FOR: The President

FROM: Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS)

SUBJECT: Intelligence on Shoot-Down of Malaysian Plane

Executive Summary

U.S.–Russian intensions are building in a precarious way over Ukraine, and we are far from certain that your advisers fully appreciate the danger of escalation. The New York Times and other media outlets are treating sensitive issues in dispute as flat-fact, taking their cue from U.S. government sources.

Twelve days after the shoot-down of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17, your administration still has issued no coordinated intelligence assessment summarizing what evidence exists to determine who was responsible – much less to convincingly support repeated claims that the plane was downed by a Russian-supplied missile in the hands of Ukrainian separatists.

Your administration has not provided any satellite imagery showing that the separatists had such weaponry, and there are several other “dogs that have not barked.” Washington’s credibility, and your own, will continue to erode, should you be unwilling – or unable – to present more tangible evidence behind administration claims. In what follows, we put this in the perspective of former intelligence professionals with a cumulative total of 260 years in various parts of U.S. intelligence:

We, the undersigned former intelligence officers want to share with you our concern about the evidence adduced so far to blame Russia for the July 17 downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17. We are retired from government service and none of us is on the payroll of CNN, Fox News, or any other outlet. We intend this memorandum to provide a fresh, different perspective.

As veteran intelligence analysts accustomed to waiting, except in emergency circumstances, for conclusive information before rushing to judgment, we believe that the charges against Russia should be rooted in solid, far more convincing evidence. And that goes in spades with respect to inflammatory incidents like the shoot-down of an airliner. We are also troubled by the amateurish manner in which fuzzy and flimsy evidence has been served up – some it via “social media.”

As intelligence professionals we are embarrassed by the unprofessional use of partial intelligence information. As Americans, we find ourselves hoping that, if you indeed have more conclusive evidence, you will find a way to make it public without further delay. In charging Russia with being directly or indirectly responsible, Secretary of State John Kerry has been particularly definitive. Not so the evidence. His statements seem premature and bear earmarks of an attempt to “poison the jury pool.”

Painting Russia Black

We see an eerie resemblance to an earlier exercise in U.S. “public diplomacy” from which valuable lessons can be learned by those more interested in the truth than in exploiting tragic incidents for propaganda advantage. We refer to the behavior of the Reagan administration in the immediate aftermath of the shoot-down of Korean Airlines Flight 007 over Siberia on August 30, 1983. We sketch out below a short summary of that tragic affair, since we suspect you have not been adequately briefed on it. The parallels will be obvious to you.

An advantage of our long tenure as intelligence officers is that we remember what we have witnessed first hand; seldom do we forget key events in which we played an analyst or other role. To put it another way, most of us “know exactly where we were” when a Soviet fighter aircraft shot down Korean Airlines passenger flight 007 over Siberia on August 30, 1983, over 30 years ago. At the time, we were intelligence officers on “active duty.” You were 21; many of those around you today were still younger.

Thus, it seems possible that you may be learning how the KAL007 affair went down, so to speak, for the first time; that you may now become more aware of the serious implications for U.S.-Russian relations regarding how the downing of Flight 17 goes down; and that you will come to see merit in preventing ties with Moscow from falling into a state of complete disrepair. In our view, the strategic danger here dwarfs all other considerations.

Hours after the tragic shoot-down on Aug. 30, 1983, the Reagan administration used its very accomplished propaganda machine to twist the available intelligence on Soviet culpability for the killing of all 269 people aboard KAL007. The airliner was shot down after it strayed hundreds of miles off course and penetrated Russia’s airspace over sensitive military facilities in Kamchatka and Sakhalin Island. The Soviet pilot tried to signal the plane to land, but the KAL pilots did not respond to the repeated warnings. Amid confusion about the plane’s identity – a U.S. spy plane had been in the vicinity hours earlier – Soviet ground control ordered the pilot to fire.

The Soviets soon realized they had made a horrendous mistake. U.S. intelligence also knew from sensitive intercepts that the tragedy had resulted from a blunder, not from a willful act of murder (much as on July 3, 1988, the USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian civilian airliner over the Persian Gulf, killing 290 people, an act which President Ronald Reagan dismissively explained as an “understandable accident”).

To make the very blackest case against Moscow for shooting down the KAL airliner, the Reagan administration suppressed exculpatory evidence from U.S. electronic intercepts. Washington’s mantra became “Moscow’s deliberate downing of a civilian passenger plane.” Newsweek ran a cover emblazoned with the headline “Murder in the Sky.” (Apparently, not much has changed; Time’s cover this week features “Cold War II” and “Putin’s dangerous game.” The cover story by Simon Shuster, “In Russia, Crime Without Punishment,” would merit an A-plus in William Randolph Hearst’s course “Yellow Journalism 101.”)

When KAL007 was shot down, Alvin A. Snyder, director of the U.S. Information Agency’s television and film division, was enlisted in a concerted effort to “heap as much abuse on the Soviet Union as possible,” as Snyder writes in his 1995 book, “Warriors of Disinformation.”

He and his colleagues also earned an A-plus for bringing the “mainstream media” along. For example, ABC’s Ted Koppel noted with patriotic pride, “This has been one of those occasions when there is very little difference between what is churned out by the U.S. government propaganda organs and by the commercial broadcasting networks.”

“Fixing” the Intelligence Around the Policy

“The perception we wanted to convey was that the Soviet Union had cold-bloodedly carried out a barbaric act,” wrote Snyder, adding that the Reagan administration went so far as to present a doctored transcript of the intercepts to the United Nations Security Council on September 6, 1983.

Only a decade later, when Snyder saw the complete transcripts — including the portions that the Reagan administration had hidden — would he fully realize how many of the central elements of the U.S. presentation were false.

The intercepts showed that the Soviet fighter pilot believed he was pursuing a U.S. spy aircraft and that he was having trouble in the dark identifying the plane. Per instructions from ground control, the pilot had circled the KAL airliner and tilted his wings to order the aircraft to land. The pilot said he fired warning shots, as well. This information “was not on the tape we were provided,” Snyder wrote.

It became abundantly clear to Snyder that, in smearing the Soviets, the Reagan administration had presented false accusations to the United Nations, as well as to the people of the United States and the world. In his book, Snyder acknowledged his own role in the deception, but drew a cynical conclusion. He wrote, “The moral of the story is that all governments, including our own, lie when it suits their purposes. The key is to lie first.”

The tortured attempts by your administration and stenographers in the media to blame Russia for the downing of Flight 17, together with John Kerry’s unenviable record for credibility, lead us to the reluctant conclusion that the syndrome Snyder describes may also be at work in your own administration; that is, that an ethos of “getting your own lie out first” has replaced “ye shall know the truth.” At a minimum, we believe Secretary Kerry displayed unseemly haste in his determination to be first out of the starting gate.

Both Sides Cannot Be Telling the Truth

We have always taken pride in not shooting from the hip, but rather in doing intelligence analysis that is evidence-based. The evidence released to date does not bear close scrutiny; it does not permit a judgment as to which side is lying about the shoot-down of Flight 17. Our entire professional experience would incline us to suspect the Russians – almost instinctively. Our more recent experience, particularly observing Secretary Kerry injudiciousness in latching onto one spurious report after another as “evidence,” has gone a long way toward balancing our earlier predispositions.

It seems that whenever Kerry does cite supposed “evidence” that can be checked – like the forged anti-Semitic fliers distributed in eastern Ukraine or the photos of alleged Russian special forces soldiers who allegedly slipped into Ukraine – the “proof” goes “poof” as Kerry once said in a different context. Still, these misrepresentations seem small peccadillos compared with bigger whoppers like the claim Kerry made on Aug. 30, 2013, no fewer than 35 times, that “we know” the government of Bashar al-Assad was responsible for the chemical incidents near Damascus nine days before.

On September 3, 2013 – following your decision to call off the attack on Syria in order to await Congressional authorization – Kerry was still pushing for an attack in testimony before a thoroughly sympathetic Senate Foreign Affairs Committee. On the following day Kerry drew highly unusual personal criticism from President Putin, who said: “He is lying, and he knows he is lying. It is sad.”

Equally serious, during the first week of September 2013, as you and President Vladimir Putin were putting the final touches to the deal whereby Syrian chemical weapons would be given up for destruction, John Kerry said something that puzzles us to this day. On September 9, 2013, Kerry was in London, still promoting a U.S. attack on Syria for having crossed the “Red Line” you had set against Syria’s using chemical weapons.

At a formal press conference, Kerry abruptly dismissed the possibility that Bashar al-Assad would ever give up his chemical weapons, saying, “He isn’t about to do that; it can’t be done.” Just a few hours later, the Russians and Syrians announced Syria’s agreement to do precisely what Kerry had ruled out as impossible. You sent him back to Geneva to sign the agreement, and it was formally concluded on September 14.

Regarding the Malaysia Airlines shoot-down of July 17, we believe Kerry has typically rushed to judgment and that his incredible record for credibility poses a huge disadvantage in the diplomatic and propaganda maneuvering vis-a-vis Russia. We suggest you call a halt to this misbegotten “public diplomacy” offensive. If, however, you decide to press on anyway, we suggest you try to find a less tarnished statesman or woman.

A Choice Between Two

If the intelligence on the shoot-down is as weak as it appears judging from the fuzzy scraps that have been released, we strongly suggest you call off the propaganda war and await the findings of those charged with investigating the shoot-down. If, on the other hand, your administration has more concrete, probative intelligence, we strongly suggest that you consider approving it for release, even if there may be some risk of damage to “sources and methods.” Too often this consideration is used to prevent information from entering the public domain where, as in this case, it belongs.

There have been critical junctures in the past in which presidents have recognized the need to waive secrecy in order to show what one might call “a decent respect for the opinions of mankind” or even to justify military action.

As senior CIA veteran Milton Bearden has put it, there are occasions when more damage is done to U.S. national security by “protecting” sources and methods than by revealing them. For instance, Bearden noted that Ronald Reagan exposed a sensitive intelligence source in showing a skeptical world the reason for the U.S. attack on Libya in retaliation for the April 5, 1986 bombing at the La Belle Disco in West Berlin. That bombing killed two U.S. servicemen and a Turkish woman, and injured over 200 people, including 79 U.S. servicemen.

Intercepted messages between Tripoli and agents in Europe made it clear that Libya was behind the attack. Here’s an excerpt: “At 1:30 in the morning one of the acts was carried out with success, without leaving a trace behind.”

Ten days after the bombing the U.S. retaliated, sending over 60 Air Force fighters to strike the Libyan capital of Tripoli and the city of Benghazi. The operation was widely seen as an attempt to kill Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, who survived, but his adopted 15-month-old daughter was killed in the bombing, along with at least 15 other civilians.

Three decades ago, there was more shame attached to the killing of children. As world abhorrence grew after the U.S. bombing strikes, the Reagan administration produced the intercepted, decoded message sent by the Libyan Peoples Bureau in East Berlin acknowledging the “success” of the attack on the disco, and adding the ironically inaccurate boast “without leaving a trace behind.”

The Reagan administration made the decision to give up a highly sensitive intelligence source, its ability to intercept and decipher Libyan communications. But once the rest of the world absorbed this evidence, international grumbling subsided and many considered the retaliation against Tripoli justified.

If You’ve Got the Goods…

If the U.S. has more convincing evidence than what has so far been adduced concerning responsibility for shooting down Flight 17, we believe it would be best to find a way to make that intelligence public – even at the risk of compromising “sources and methods.” Moreover, we suggest you instruct your subordinates not to cheapen U.S. credibility by releasing key information via social media like Twitter and Facebook.

The reputation of the messenger for credibility is also key in this area of “public diplomacy.” As is by now clear to you, in our view Secretary Kerry is more liability than asset in this regard. Similarly, with regard to Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, his March 12, 2013 Congressional testimony under oath to what he later admitted were “clearly erroneous” things regarding NSA collection should disqualify him. Clapper should be kept at far remove from the Flight 17 affair.

What is needed, if you’ve got the goods, is an Interagency Intelligence Assessment – the genre used in the past to lay out the intelligence. We are hearing indirectly from some of our former colleagues that what Secretary Kerry is peddling does not square with the real intelligence. Such was the case late last August, when Kerry created a unique vehicle he called a “Government (not Intelligence) Assessment” blaming, with no verifiable evidence, Bashar al-Assad for the chemical attacks near Damascus, as honest intelligence analysts refused to go along and, instead, held their noses.

We believe you need to seek out honest intelligence analysts now and hear them out. Then, you may be persuaded to take steps to curb the risk that relations with Russia might escalate from “Cold War II” into an armed confrontation. In all candor, we see little reason to believe that Secretary Kerry and your other advisers appreciate the enormity of that danger.

In our most recent (May 4) memorandum to you, Mr. President, we cautioned that if the U.S. wished “to stop a bloody civil war between east and west Ukraine and avert Russian military intervention in eastern Ukraine, you may be able to do so before the violence hurtles completely out of control.” On July 17, you joined the top leaders of Germany, France, and Russia in calling for a ceasefire. Most informed observers believe you have it in your power to get Ukrainian leaders to agree. The longer Kiev continues its offensive against separatists in eastern Ukraine, the more such U.S. statements appear hypocritical.

We reiterate our recommendations of May 4, that you remove the seeds of this confrontation by publicly disavowing any wish to incorporate Ukraine into NATO and that you make it clear that you are prepared to meet personally with Russian President Putin without delay to discuss ways to defuse the crisis and recognize the legitimate interests of the various parties. The suggestion of an early summit got extraordinary resonance in controlled and independent Russian media. Not so in “mainstream” media in the U.S. Nor did we hear back from you.

----------


## bsnub

> He's the representative the German government sent in first FFS. So you are saying Germany sends in a buffalo to have a look around?


Ohh my. Where did you come up with this gem? He is an old retired DDR air force officer he was never sent anywhere by the German government and most assuredly is not a representative of it. 





> Why is Ukraine bombing the fvck out of the site so no one can get near it.?
> Destroying as much evidence as possible?


Ukraine has not bombed the crash site, but the rebels have been doing there best to destroy it. Feel free to forward to 3:15 of this video to see some proof of that;

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> Ohh my. Where did you come up with this gem? He is an old retired DDR air force officer he was never sent anywhere by the German government and most assuredly is not a representative of it.


Right o - so he just wondered in there under the heavy bombardment and had a peek  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 






> Ukraine has not bombed the crash site, but the rebels have been doing there best to destroy it. Feel free to forward to 3:15 of this video to see some proof of that;  Searching Through the Debris of Flight MH17: Russian Roulette (Dispatch 61) - YouTube


So you won't accept information from people actually there and witnessing it (as well as your own intelligence analysts above)

... and you want to present news from a bunch of crack heads "Vice News"

Laughable mate.

----------


## bsnub

> Here's one for you Bsnub and Koman.
> 
> Maybe you will be open to listening to some Ex-US military operatives?
> 
> Posted with permission of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity.
> 
> MEMORANDUM FOR: The President
> 
> FROM: Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS)
> ...


This is really doesn't make any difference to me. Like I said before I drew my conclusion based on other evidence. While it would be nice if the Americans came forward with their evidence it would be just icing on the cake in my opinion. To me there is plenty of evidence already.

1. Video and pictures of the BUK launcher in the area with one missile missing.
2. Intercepted rebel cell phone conversations clearly stating that they shot down a civilian airliner.
3. Scrubbed twitter posts by the rebel commander that they shot down a Ukrainian transport plane at the exact time the jetliner was shot down. 



If youre a long-time reader of Open Culture, you know all about Archive.org  a non-profit that houses all kinds of fascinating texts, audio, moving images, and software. And dont forget archived web pages. Since 1996, Archives Wayback Machine has been taking snapshots of websites, producing a historical record of this still fairly new thing called the web. Right now, the Wayback Machine holds 417 billion snapshots of web sites, including one page showing that Igor Girkin, a Ukrainian separatist leader also known as Strelkov, claimed responsibility on a popular Russian social-networking site for the downing of what he thought was a Ukrainian military transport plane shortly before reports that Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 had crashed near the rebel held Ukrainian city of Donetsk. (This quote comes from The Christian Science Monitor, which has more on the story.) Girkins post was captured by the Wayback Machine at 15 :22: 22 on July 17. By 16:56, Girkins post was taken offline  but not before Archive.org had its copy.

You have to be so blinded by what you want to see as the truth, stupid or the worlds worst detective not to be able to put the pieces together.

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

Turn on the captions.

Eyewitnesses saying there was a military plane flying next to the airliner

----------


## bsnub

> Right o - so he just wondered in there under the heavy bombardment and had a peek


He never went there.  :rofl:  He looked at some pictures online and made his decision. He was then interviewed by some obscure newspaper called "New Germany". Gee I could only speculate what that newspapers bent could be.




> So you won't accept information from people actually there and witnessing it


Just who are those people? Rebel sympathisers or the rebels themselves? Bollocks the  international inspectors who are there have not reported Ukrainian jets bombing the crash site nor have other freelance journalists who are currently there (I follow several of them on twitter and they update frequently).

The reality is that the battle is moving closer to the crash site. The Ukrainian army is advancing and the rebels are retreating. The fact that the Ukrainian airforce would fly more planes into an area were they have already lost several aircraft is absurd.

----------


## koman

> So you won't accept information from people actually there and witnessing it (as well as your own intelligence analysts above)


Apparently you don't want to accept information from any source other than a few mystery "experts" and "analysts"  who pop up here and there looking for a bit of attention.    Such people always seem to materialize in droves when things like this happen....and of course the tin hatters will cling to everything they come up with, however ridiculous or improbable it may be..... :Smile:

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> Just who are those people


^^^ The locals.
 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> Apparently you don't want to accept information from any source other than a few mystery "experts" and "analysts" who pop up here and there looking for a bit of attention. Such people always seem to materialize in droves when things like this happen....and of course the tin hatters will cling to everything they come up with, however ridiculous or improbable it may be....


See post above.

----------


## bsnub

Early in Len Deighton's Funeral in Berlin, his nameless British agent (he was Harry Palmer in the movies) confronts his long-time adversary, Colonel Stok. The KGB man goes all sentimental and explains that his plan is to use the defection of a top scientist to fund his own escape and retirement. 

"What would you do in my position, Mr Dorf? What would you do?"

I let the sound of the lorry rumble away down Keibelstrasse. 

I said, "I'd stop telling lies to old liars for a start, Stok. Do you really think I came here without dusting off your file?  I know everything about you from the cubic capacity of your Westinghouse refrigerator to the size your mistress takes in diaphragms."

Which is just about my reaction to the Sovi... er, Russian explanations, official and otherwise, for the shootdown of MH17. Let's take two that have floated around the Internet. 

The first is that the Ukrainian air force shot the Boeing 777 down itself, using a Sukhoi Su-25 Frogfoot carrying an R-60 Aphid air-to-air missile (the only AAM normally carried by the Su-25). This would require some remarkable timing and a pilot immune to nose-bleeds, because the Su-25 can manage Mach 0.82 flat out, on a good day, and a 777 can do 0.89, and furthermore the Su-25 is unpressurized and has a normal service ceiling of 23,000 feet. No doubt coincidentally, on the day this claim was published, a Wikipedia editor with a Russian address was found trying to insert a 33,000-foot ceiling on the Su-25 page. As for the R-60, the 3 kg warhead's ability to assure a kill on a large aircraft with highly redundant systems is dubious at best. 

A second theory is that two Ukrainian Su-27 fighters trailed the Boeing and somehow drew the missile on to it. Aside from the fact that the Buk-M1 is about as discriminating as a Rottweiler with ADHD, and that it could be activated at such a short range that the Su-27s would be inside its no-escape zone, the weakness of this story is its extreme similarity to the KGB-disseminated excuse for the shootdown of KAL 007, 31 years ago. The story then was that an RC-135 was deliberately shadowing the civilian 747, possibly using it to "ring the fire alarm" and gather data on Soviet air defenses. 

Bears don't have spots, but if they did, they'd have a hard time changing them.

How An Su-25 Can Shoot Down A Faster, Higher-Flying Aircraft | Ares

Here is a link to the profile of the author of that article. He has far more experience and credibility then the so called experts you have pointed to. 

Bill Sweetman

Furthermore the after the fact "eyewitness" accounts posted up in your video seem to toe the line of the rebel supplied story. Sorry I will take the word of a real aviation expert over some rebel sympathising Russian speaking babushkas.

----------


## bsnub

Following the downing of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 over separatist-held eastern Ukraine, Russian state-owned media started focusing a lot on a strange little plane. The Sukhoi Su-25 "Frogfoot" is a jet fighter from the late Cold War, designed to support ground troops from closer overhead, and in the MH17 tragedy, what the Su-25 can and can't do is a centerpiece of Russian denials.

According to some theories, a Ukrainian Air Force Su-25 jet fighter fighter was armed with anti-air missiles and flew to an altitude of 33,000 feet, within 3 miles of MH17implying that the warplane shot down MH17. Primarily Russian media (including Russia's state-owned English language television network RT, Russian state-owned media news agency RIA Novosti, and Pravda.ru) are reporting this version of events. Russia is hardly an unbiased party in this conflict. But if there was going to be a rumor about the Ukrainian government shooting the airliner, it couldn't have fixated on a less ideal jet.

The Sukhoi Su-25 "Frogfoot" is not designed to destroy airplanes. Instead, it's a close air support or ground attack aircraft. First flown in 1979, it serves in the air forces of many post-Soviet states, including Ukraine. It's primarily used for destroying tanks, armored vehicles, trucks, and bunkers, where the Frogfoot's armor and 9,000 lbs of armaments make it a deadly force. Among those armaments can be AA-8 Aphid anti-air missiles, which are usually limited in range to under two miles. But there's an upper limit to the plane's performance: it can only fly up to 23,000 feet, well below MH17's reported 33,000 cruising distance. For an anti-tank plane, that's not a problem, but it poses a challenge to theories that Ukraine used one to down an airliner.

On Monday morning, someone from an IP address in Moscow edited the Su-25's Russian Wikipedia page to increase the maximum height the plane can reach by about 10,000 feet. 

On the website of the Su-25's manufacturer, the maximum service ceiling reflects the first version, and also the actual capabilities of the plane. It's not just absurd that a Ukrainian Su-25 shot down the airliner, it's almost technically impossible.

Instead, it looks like the Su-25 has a more somber connection to MH17. Earlier today, two Ukrainian Air Force Frogfeet were shot down in the same region of separatist-held eastern Ukraine where MH17 met its grim fate.

Could This Old Warplane Really Shoot Down MH17? | Popular Science

And yet more aviation experts saying guess what? Nope not likely. 

British Aviation Expert Says Russian MH17 Claims Highly Unlikely

Can the Su-25 intercept and shoot down a 777? | Locklin on science


I could post more links but I think I made my point. OH BTW your "expert" that old DDR Colonel he claimed that the fuselage of the aircraft showed that it was strafed by the gun of the SU-25 a claim even more far fetched then what the Russians are claiming because the fighter could only climb as high as 23,000 feet. So those thirty caliber guns must have set the all time record to be able to shoot another 10,000 feet up into the sky and miraculously hit the jetliner.  :smiley laughing:

----------


## koman

Good stuff there Bsnub.   Quite frightening that you and I seem to be on the same side in a TD debate..... :rofl:     Still we can see how thin the straws are that the tin hatters are clinging to.  

Apart from all the technical issues involving altitude capabilities and armament limitations, there is still that nagging question;  "why would a Ukrainian pilot with full visual contact shoot down a totally neutral aircraft...and a civil airliner to boot?    Nothing to be gained and a great deal to be lost.    Reports of _fighters_ by witnesses is hardly a big surprise in an area where rebel forces are known to be operating...especially a ground attack aircraft....maybe looking for SAM launchers.... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): . 

  Drunk rebels with a cool new SAM system on the ground are not likely weighing the pros and cons too much  when they have a hard on to try out the new hardware.

Most commentary on this incident seems to agree that it was most likely a mistake.    The thing is...who's mistake was it and who was in the best position with the right equipment to bring down a high altitude airliner?

----------


## bsnub

> Quite frightening that you and I seem to be on the same side in a TD debate....


I doubt that this will happen anytime again soon.  :Smile: 




> there is still that nagging question; "why would a Ukrainian pilot with full visual contact shoot down a totally neutral aircraft...and a civil airliner to boot? Nothing to be gained and a great deal to be lost.


Exactly it just makes no sense but the point is really not worth pondering because the aircraft just could not have done it with its limitations.

----------


## HermantheGerman

> On the other hand; a herd of fairly drunk and stupid "freedom fighters" with a nifty new missile launcher on the ground.........


Of course you have a valid point there. 

-But, what about the herd of fairly drunk and stupid politicians sitting in the Ukraine parliament ?

-And what about our western politicians supporting these drunk and stupid Ukraine politicians ? What excuse do they have ? Alcohol or drugs ?

Not much news arround about these animals (politicians). Why do you think it's like this ? 

*Why Ukraine's government, which just collapsed, is such a mess*  July 25, 2014, 7:30 a.m. ET



Why Ukraine's government, which just collapsed, is such a mess - Vox

----------


## koman

> -But, what about the herd of fairly drunk and stupid politicians sitting in the Ukraine parliament ?


No argument there....the Ukraine parliament has been a clusterfuck for a long time.     Nobody is really saying that it could not have been the Ukrainians who shot the plane down, but the preponderance of evidence and opportunity points strongly at the rebel forces.   It must be a really depressing place to live for all  the ordinary people who are caught up in all this crap.

----------


## Necron99

> Turn on the captions.
> 
> Eyewitnesses saying there was a military plane flying next to the airliner



These russian peasants must like their carrots to be able to see a 16 meter long jet flying at 33,000 feet........

----------


## HermantheGerman

By the way, these brawls in Ukraine parliament happen on a regular basis. For the past 15 YEARS.

----------


## Necron99

> By the way, these brawls in Ukraine parliament happen on a regular basis. For the past 15 YEARS.


Lot's of parliaments are dysfunctional. Ukraine got nothing on Taiwan.

----------


## HermantheGerman

> Originally Posted by HermantheGerman
> 
> -But, what about the herd of fairly drunk and stupid politicians sitting in the Ukraine parliament ?
> 
> 
> No argument there....the Ukraine parliament has been a clusterfuck for a long time.     Nobody is really saying that it could not have been the Ukrainians who shot the plane down, but the preponderance of evidence and opportunity points strongly at the rebel forces.   It must be a really depressing place to live for all  the ordinary people who are caught up in all this crap.


No argument there....

----------


## bsnub

> These russian peasants must like their carrots to be able to see a 16 meter long jet flying at 33,000 feet........


 :rofl:

----------


## HermantheGerman

> Originally Posted by HermantheGerman
> 
> 
> By the way, these brawls in Ukraine parliament happen on a regular basis. For the past 15 YEARS.
> 
> 
> Lot's of parliaments are dysfunctional. Ukraine got nothing on Taiwan.


Compare the Taiwan economy to the Ukraine. 
Compare the natural resources of Taiwan to the Ukraine.
I think the taiwanese parliament can afford a good brawl  :Buttkick:

----------


## Seekingasylum

Quite amusing the disinformation put out by the Russians designed to support the contention the aircraft was shot down by automatic weapons fire from a military fighter plane, seemingly on the basis that that would account for alleged bullet holes in the airframe and cockpit.

Stuff and nonsense but typical rubbish from idiot Russians who still believe western folk are as dumb as they consider their own doltish masses who are probably the target for such propaganda.

Modern missiles are designed to explode on proximity fuses at a closing speed of over 2500 feet per sec maximising the killing zone. The missile itself becomes a fragmented ball of shrapnel in addition to its own payload of armoured bolts etc. Thus on impact the target will be encompassed by a blast of red hot metal sufficient to bring anything down within its zone.

The aircraft remnants will bear witness to this and any metallurgical analysis will confirm evidence of damage commensurate with such an attack. Additionally, the corpses will show evidence of cauterised penetration wounds. Literally, the cadavers will testify to how they met their end.

Russians are cvunts and reading their utter shite simply confirms what everyone with a brain knows, the fuckers brought down this aircraft, and that is that.

The only doubt remaining is just how long it will take for the West to confront the Russians with their murderous incompetence.

----------


## Troy

> Originally Posted by Necron99
> 
> These russian peasants must like their carrots to be able to see a 16 meter long jet flying at 33,000 feet........


On an overcast day....

Cannon fire? How do the Russians account for those pieces of steel found amongst the wreckage?

Only problem is proving actual Russisan involvement in the firing of the buk.

----------


## bsnub

> Russians are cvunts and reading their utter shite simply confirms what everyone with a brain knows, the fuckers brought down this aircraft, and that is that.


The tinfoil morons on this forum will continue to deny facts and reality.




> The only doubt remaining is just how long it will take for the West to confront the Russians with their murderous incompetence.


Unfortunately the cowardly Euros will continue to be resistant to any type of manly confrontation.

----------


## OhOh

> Let's hear what all the other crash investigators say first - but right now your guess is as good as mine.


Yes, why don't we wait until the fat lady sings instead of prejudging, creating tension and issuing sanctions? 




> We are retired from government service and none of us is on the payroll of CNN, Fox News, or any other outlet.


Unfortunately what they don't say is "none of us is on the payroll of CNN, Fox News, RT, Russian Intelligence, or any other outlet". 

So let's just 




 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier
> 
> 
> Turn on the captions.
> 
> Eyewitnesses saying there was a military plane flying next to the airliner
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So you can see an airliner at this height - but not a jet?

Yeah ok mate  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Mr Earl

You can see the condensation trails but not really the jet from 33000 feet.

----------


## Troy

Ahem...you can't see either when there are are clouds inbetween as on this particular day.

BTW: The earlier video was of a different plane being shot down.

----------


## koman

The witnesses on the ground who claimed to have heard the "buzzing sound" made by fighter jets are hardly key witnesses. 

   You would not hear any "buzz" at 33,000 feet anyway, and the fighter jets that were airborne that day were ground attack aircraft that could not get anywhere near the altitude of the civil airliner. 

   A claim is even published of a jet fighter flying "close" to the airliner....as if any of these people could identify a jet fighter at 33,000 feet...through cloud cover... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

 A few ethnic Russian pig farmers daughters are not really the most reliable observers in this kind of situation,   and the whole thing would seem to be just another attempt to confuse,  and deflect attention away from the real source of the shoot down.    It has to be bullshit, plain and simple.

----------


## jamescollister

Believe nothing, lots of people keeping a close eye on this area, where's the ATC or Ukrainian military primary radar, where's the sat photo,s of military movements.
Find it hard to believe that missile launchers can drive around undetected, where were the missiles systems and who's were where.
Fighters planes, flying around and the west doesn't see, or refuses to tell.

Reasonable bet, if the separatist did it, we knew the missiles were there and didn't warn the airlines. If the Ukraine did then we are covering for a potential  partner.
Jim

----------


## Seekingasylum

What is of salient interest is the fact that so far the bodies recovered are really just bits bundled into plastic bags and delivered to the Dutch in that charnel house of a train. The remaining bodies are left at the crash site quickly decomposing in the heat of a Ukraine summer and not accessible because of the contrived fighting within the district.

The Russians are not stupid in their method and within the next week those bodies will have deteriorated into exploding envelopes of gases, decaying flesh and liquefying organs beyond any meaningful examination by the best of pathologists.

They know what they are doing the Russkies. Scum of course but we all know that.

----------


## pseudolus

> manly confrontation.


nothing manly about a war, created by the US intervention by ousting a legitimate government, installing a non elected right wing fascist group who immediately sell the countries heart and soul to the globalists in return for huge debt to the IMF.

Nothing manly about this at all. A whole heap of stupidity, but not manliness.

I would assume the passenger plane was shot out of the sky, accidently, by the rebels. They didn't target it - why the fuck would they? So it is a tragic accident being used now by the US to increase their pressure for anew cold war (not least to try and take peoples attention away from their other fuck ups in the region and in the middle east). 

The only people who would benefit from the plane being shot out of the sky intentionally would be the Ukrainian government and their US backers. 

Pointless thread buying into the Us and Them  divide and conquer bullshit.

----------


## OhOh

> CNN announce that the US have told them they monitored 3 ground to ground missile launches from Ukrainian military in the last 35 hours. No location or what damage the missiles caused or any details given.


Allegedly the Russians shot them down with their anti missile system from within the Russian Federation. Allegedly these missiles are capable of carrying a nuclear, biological or HE warhead. 

Location: Russian Radar Station - Crimea.

Ivan Radar Operator: : 3/4 ballistic missiles launched from Ukranian location, 50Km away, Sir.
Commander: Where are they going?
Ivan Radar Operator: Towards Russia Sir.
Commander: Take them out.
Ivan Radar Operator: Yes Sir.
Ivan Radar Operator: Missiles destroyed Sir.
Commander: Back to your screen Ivan.
Ivan Radar Operator: Yes Sir.
Commander: Do we know what the missiles were?
Ivan Radar Operator: Tochka missiles Sir. We sold them to Ukraine Sir.
Commander: Well Done. Watch the screens I have to phone Moscow.
Ivan Radar Operator: Yes Sir.

----------


## wasabi

> You can see the condensation trails but not really the jet from 33000 feet.


Exactly

----------


## bsnub

> created by the US intervention by ousting a legitimate government, installing a non elected right wing fascist group who immediately sell the countries heart and soul to the globalists in return for huge debt to the IMF.


Tin foil nonsense. They were going into debt either way it was the Russians or the IMF. They chose the IMF furthermore the US had nothing to do with the protests at the maiden that was all due to domestic discontent and you can not prove otherwise only speculate. Secondly there has been an election and the right wing party lost. Stop toeing the RT party line.

----------


## koman

> Stop toeing the RT party line.


Indeed....we get all this "don't believe anything you read/hear in the western media" routine all the time;  quickly  followed up by a load of total bollocks quoted right from RT.    RT is so bad they have journalists quitting because they are so fucking embarrassed by the litany of lies and BS that have to put out..... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## HermantheGerman

> RT is so bad they have journalists quitting because they are so fucking embarrassed by the litany of lies and BS that have to put out.....


Those Russians are quick learners  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): .

----------


## bsnub

> Those Russians are quick learners


The wrote the book buddy. They are the masters.

----------


## Seekingasylum

Actually, it was Goebbels who wrote the book in developing propaganda and disseminating disinformation but the Brits refined it into an art form.

Russian stuff is crap and a blunt instrument only credible to their own lumpen hordes, and a few here.

----------


## pseudolus

> Stop toeing the RT party line.


I don't read or watch RT. About as neutral and unbiased as the BBC / CNN. 

US invested 5.5b USD in regime change. They actually admitted this. Why would the US lie about it? 

You actually want a new cold war by the sound of it.

----------


## bsnub

> US invested 5.5b USD in regime change. They actually admitted this. Why would the US lie about it?


That would be the first I heard of it. I doubt you can provide a credible link to back that up.




> I don't read or watch RT. About as neutral and unbiased as the BBC / CNN.


If you dont read or watch how would you know? BTW I am not disputing that BBC/CNN are biased but RT goes far beyond bias.

----------


## koman

> Actually, it was Goebbels who wrote the book in developing propaganda and disseminating disinformation but the Brits refined it into an art form.
> 
> Russian stuff is crap and a blunt instrument only credible to their own lumpen hordes, and a few here.


Worth noting that RT's broadcast staff are virtually all Brits....likely staunch Labour party types...  The Russkies just feed them the bullshit and they dish it out with the proper accents.... :Smile:

----------


## OhOh

> Unfortunately the cowardly Euros will continue to be resistant to any type of manly confrontation.


What exactly has been the US "manly confrontation". 

The sanctions then US has called for will not effect their declining world trade, they are across an ocean and thus have a barrier to all military activity except for  SLBMs or  ICBMs. Whereas the EU has a much larger trade with Russia and is 5 minutes from Russia. So the net effect is minimal, to the US.

The evidence they and their lacky, the Ukrainian leaders, have produced have been shot through with evidence and analysis from the Russians.

Their only "evidence" so far released, and acknowledge by the US spokeswoman, has been "Social media reports". Embarrassing for a nation that purports to have full-spectrum dominance (terrestrial, aerial, maritime, subterranean, extraterrestrial, psychological, and bio- or cyber-technological warfare).
One would understand if say Mexico or South Korea stooped to these depths of lying but the worlds only superpower, what a joke.






> The tinfoil morons on this forum will continue to deny facts and reality.


Here is a link to the  Ministry of Defence of the Russian Federation report and analysis of the "claim" of Russian involvement in Ukraine.

Analytics : Ministry of Defence of the Russian Federation

It alleges the dates, locations and authenticity of Ukrainian "evidence" could not have come from them for a number of obvious reasons. Of course the analysis is from a Russian source, however we have still, after 10+ days, not seen any evidence or analysis from any one of the countries who had, and continue to have, equally intelligent analysts along with the necessary equipment. Any NATO countries parliaments put their name to evidence NO, any other country calling for sanctions NO. Because they have none.

But they continue to cling to "social media" evidence, sanction Russian companies and people and threaten further "consequences" if Russia doesn't run up the white flag.  These guys have called wolf once too often, the world is opening it's eyes. The world consist of more than a couple of dozen bought and paid for thieving politicians.

----------


## wasabi

> Originally Posted by thegent
> 
> 
> Actually, it was Goebbels who wrote the book in developing propaganda and disseminating disinformation but the Brits refined it into an art form.
> 
> Russian stuff is crap and a blunt instrument only credible to their own lumpen hordes, and a few here.
> 
> 
> Worth noting that RT's broadcast staff are virtually all Brits....likely staunch Labour party types...  The Russkies just feed them the bullshit and they dish it out with the proper accents....


I watch RT in awe, as a cold war victim on the American side, is it not amazing to have the freedom to hear the other guys side of the story. Russian News that I have a choice to watch, and form My own opinions.
Now you suggest that it is Brits running this news station,
you've ruined it for Me.

----------


## rickschoppers

Unfortunately, you can't believe even 50% of what any news source states. Most of it is biased BS and you have to read several sources to form your own opinion. Hopefully, you also do look at both sides before spouting crap, which it seems many do here.

I advocate hearing both sides to every argument before forming any kind of opinion. Unfortunately, both sides are not always readily available.

----------


## koman

> Now you suggest that it is Brits running this news station,
> you've ruined it for Me.


Relax and enjoy.  The Brits are not "running" the shop.  They just read the "news" which is provided by... ahem....completely unbiased and neutral Russian sources.  

I watch RT once in a while myself.  One needs a bit of comic relief after the serious and sombre experience of watching the FOX channel...... :Smile:

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> I watch RT once in a while myself. One needs a bit of comic relief after the serious and sombre experience of watching the FOX channel.


Ahhh.. a FOX viewer.... explains it all  :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by wasabi
> 
> Now you suggest that it is Brits running this news station,
> you've ruined it for Me.
> 
> 
> Relax and enjoy.  The Brits are not "running" the shop.  They just read the "news" which is provided by... ahem....completely unbiased and neutral Russian sources.  
> 
> I watch RT once in a while myself.  One needs a bit of comic relief after the serious and sombre experience of watching the FOX channel......


You obviously missed the seppo arse licker.

----------


## Necron99

I used to enjoy reading Pravda, which you could buy in newsagencies in Oz back in the 80's. It was a hoot.

----------


## Fozzy

Flew through kiev a couple of days ago. Thankfully  no problems. Either we weren't shot at or they missed. There was a moment half way through the in flight meal, I was thinking it might be a result if the plane suddenly burst in to flames and I didn't have to finish it.

----------


## wasabi

Lucky you weren't a grunt on the ground.
You where lucky enough to fly out, great feeling.

----------


## pseudolus

Meanwhile

Another 400 Ukrainian soldiers leave Ukraine, allegedly refusing to shoot their own people as instructed by the unelected western patsy government, brought about by foreign backed regime change. 




> * 400 Ukrainian soldiers cross into Russia*
> 
> 
> 
> MOSCOW — A Russian border security official said more than 400 Ukrainian soldiers crossed into Russia, according to a report from the Interfax news agency. It wasn’t immediately clear why the soldiers entered Russia, with both sides giving conflicting accounts.
> The Russian official said the soldiers deserted the Kiev government and the Russian side opened a safe corridor, while a Ukrainian military official said the soldiers, without giving a number, were forced into Russian territory by rebel fire after running out of ammunition.
> Vasily Malayev, head of the Federal Security Service’s border patrol in the Rostov region, told Interfax that 438 Ukrainian soldiers had reached Russia on Monday. He said the Russian side had allowed the soldiers to safely enter the country.
> Russia’s Defense Ministry couldn’t immediately be reached for comment.
> The Ukrainian military confirmed that part of a brigade had most likely crossed into Russian territory, although it disputed Russia’s version of events and wouldn’t say how many soldiers went over.
> A spokesman for the Ukrainian military operation in the east, Oleksiy Dmitrashkovsky, said troops from the army’s 72nd brigade were penned into their position and came under a sustained barrage of fire from separatist forces. Rebel fighters used tanks, mortars, artillery and Grad missile launchers over four hours, Dmitrashkovsky said, and eventually the brigade was forced to divide up into two sections.


400 Ukrainian soldiers cross into Russia | New York Post


I would make a point about the official "ukrainian" version of events. Would Russia allow 400 + Ukrainian soldiers to effectively invade their territory, if we are also to believe that Russia has amassed a huge force on their border to protect themselves? 

Maybe they would, and of course, we eagerly await their return to Ukraine and them telling the world how they were badly treated by the Russians.

----------


## bsnub

> Would Russia allow 400 + Ukrainian soldiers to effectively invade their territory


400 soldiers who happen to be out of ammo and most likely surrendering to the Russians hardly constitutes an invasion. 




> if we are also to believe that Russia has amassed a huge force on their border to protect themselves?


Russia has made no attempt to deny or hide the fact that they have a huge build up on the boarder. As a matter of fact it is holding massive war games there.

But you can believe whatever you want.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Russia waging massive war games as Ukraine recovers more territory - LA Times

----------


## pseudolus

^ War games indeed, but not the invasion force we are led to believe. 

So where are they? They simply run out of ammo fighting who they believe (apparently) proxy fighters for Russia, and they then simply walk into Russia, hands up, and Russia does what?

----------


## jamescollister

Have to say, hard to believe a mechanized unit runs out of bullets, then instead of an air drop of ammo, or return to base, goes in the wrong direction and enters Russia.

Think they could have thought up a better story, it was foggy, they got lost, GPS was faulty, happy hour in a bar on the Russian side. Jim

----------


## OhOh

Airdrop planes are being either shot down or the "supplies" are falling in the freedom fighters area.

The Russians of course offer humanitarian aid to the, now, refugees, food, water, medical and vodka!!! How many sign up for the Russian army, how many want to go back to Kiev and be shot for desertion is the important question.

----------


## jamescollister

> Airdrop planes are being either shot down or the "supplies" are falling in the freedom fighters area.
> 
> The Russians of course offer humanitarian aid to the, now, refugees, food, water, medical and vodka!!! How many sign up for the Russian army, how many want to go back to Kiev and be shot for desertion is the important question.


If free food and vodka, I'm sold, I don't have to go back to Kiev.
Jim

----------


## pseudolus

> shot for desertion is the important question.


They'd be welcomed as returning heroes, no? 




> If free food and vodka, I'm sold,


I'm all over that - served by the white hot ruskie ladies.

----------


## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by OhOh
> 
>  shot for desertion is the important question.
> 
> 
> They'd be welcomed as returning heroes, no? 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Goes with out saying, can't have food and vodka without the girls.

----------


## OhOh

> served by the white hot ruskie ladies.


How short your memory is. The "ladies" stopping the Ukrainian troop carriers were not what the "Russians Wifes" advertises. But hey a few vodkas later .......

----------


## bsnub

It looks like this will be over soon. Donetsk and Luhansk are basically encircled and the Ukrainian army is taking control. Sorry tinfoil brigade.. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## pseudolus

> The "ladies" stopping the Ukrainian troop carriers were not what the "Russians Wifes" advertises. But hey a few vodkas later


Got to be a few of these lovelies about









I'd take my chances....

----------


## pseudolus

> It looks like this will be over soon. Donetsk and Luhansk are basically encircled and the Ukrainian army is taking control. Sorry tinfoil brigade..


Sorry for what? A guided tour by some Ukrainian Soldiers (the ones who have not deserted to join Russia, that is) is supposed to prove what exactly? 

And out of interest, why would you side with an unelected fascist proxy government, there as the result of foreign backed regime change and all part of the plan to piss off Russia goading them into a confrontation? 

Weird.

----------


## Takeovers

> It looks like this will be over soon. Donetsk and Luhansk are basically encircled and the Ukrainian army is taking control. Sorry tinfoil brigade.


I don't see it that way. If, as it looks likely at the moment, the small group of special forces supported by local thugs are defeated, there comes the next step. Putin is already massing his troops at the border. And don't believe he will not use them if things don't go his way. Nothing short of the threat of allout war, with nuclear weapons if need be, will stop him now.

----------


## OhOh

> Donetsk and Luhansk are basically encircled and the Ukrainian army is taking control.


From the latest info, I have seen, the Ukrainian military in southern portion of the alleged "enciclement" is surrendering and walking, unarmed into Russia asking for refugee status. 

The remaining Poles and Mercenaries may fight, but with what? All the reinforcements are arriving on the northern front. The ballistic missiles capable of carrying nuclear, chemical or High explosives have already been taken down once by the "men in green". Any re-supply of food, water and munitions, by air, to the Southern areas is being thwarted by the revolutionaries shooting them out of the sky.

Or are you advocating the Fallujah/Gaza option. Indiscriminate bombardment of town, villages and cities to exterminate the civilians. I am sure the crusaders will drop leallets ordering the ethnic cleansing of the cities prior to taking the "morally indefensible" option the Israelis and the Americans have taken before.




Has the morals of these people not moved on from Dresden or Hiroshima? What a better way to celebrate  the dropping of Little Boy.

Will Russia take the bait and bombard the rocket launchers, artillery and massed armour of the crusaders from Russia if they do start the planned genocide? Will Russia shoot down any military plane or announce a No Fly Zone?

Edited:
To change the name of the Hiroshima bomb from Big Boy to Little Boy.

----------


## koman

> Has the morals of these people not moved on from Dresden or Hiroshima? What a better way to celebrate  the dropping of Big Boy.


The morals of "Dresden and Hiroshima were driven along by the morals of the Stukka bombing of Warsaw; the Nazi death camps.... the rapes and massacres across Asia by the Japanese Imperial army, the horrendous atrocities of the occupation of Korea and parts of China..  etc etc.

You seem to be very selective indeed when it comes to "morals" and the current situation in some of the old Soviet states is no exception.  

Have you ever actually seen military action.  Would you know an M16 from a Remington 12ga shotgun if somebody shoved one up your ass?  or do you just get all your strategic analysis from RT documentaries and the Iranian national propaganda station.

PS. It was not a big boy....it was a "Tall Boy".....at least get your bomb names right FFS... :Smile:   Designed by Barnes Wallace...along with many other fine instruments used to destroy Nazi Germany.

----------


## OhOh

> PS. It was not a big boy....it was a "Tall Boy".....at least get your bomb names right FFS... Designed by Barnes Wallace...along with many other fine instruments used to destroy Nazi Germany.


My apologies the Hiroshima bomb was "Little Boy". I have edited my previous post.

Little Boy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also a link to an analysis of the MH17 crash. It's long and technical but *maybe* the truth. For those that want to read it, it's here:

http://www.mediafire.com/view/61qa99yt6v3dq64/MH17Analysis_Parts_1_and_2.pdf




> Would you know an M16 from a Remington 12ga shotgun


My world does not require me to know the difference, thank god.

----------


## OhOh

The message from the Dutch is changing now they have been to the MH17 crash site. Praising the local separatists no less.Anyone seen a mention on the BBC, CNN, Fox ..........? Any announcement on the US evidence they were parroting on about any news on the crash recorders they have had for a week or so now?_



Search for MH17 victims 'too dangerous' to continue - World - NZ Herald News

"The Netherlands' prime minister has halted the search for remains of  victims of the Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 disaster in Ukraine"

"At a news conference in The Hague, Mark Rutte praised the effort of the international recovery mission so far"

"__ has been able to access the site and communicate with local  authorities, it has learned the recovery effort undertaken by local  authorities immediately after the crash was more thorough than initially  thought."

"__Rutte said that it now appears "fortunately that more was done after the disaster than we thought until now."_
_Local  Ukrainian authorities carried out "an intensive search in the area with  800 volunteers, and there were many bodies recovered in those (first)  days," he said.__"
_

----------


## OhOh

> do you just get all your strategic analysis from RT documentaries


RT News has some heartwarming topics. Don't fool around with the Anime Prosecutie' in Japan.

Japan?s darling Natalia Poklonskaya on Tokyo Russia sanctions list ? RT News

----------


## harrybarracuda

> The message from the Dutch is changing now they have been to the MH17 crash site. Praising the local separatists no less.Anyone seen a mention on the BBC, CNN, Fox ..........? Any announcement on the US evidence they were parroting on about any news on the crash recorders they have had for a week or so now?_
> 
> 
> 
> Search for MH17 victims 'too dangerous' to continue - World - NZ Herald News
> 
> "The Netherlands' prime minister has halted the search for remains of  victims of the Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 disaster in Ukraine"
> 
> "At a news conference in The Hague, Mark Rutte praised the effort of the international recovery mission so far"
> ...


They don't appear to be praising "local separatists". It says "local authorities" and in fact specifically "local Ukrainian authorities".

Why do you feel the need to manipulate the words to suit your narrative?

----------


## OhOh

> It says "local authorities" and in fact specifically "local Ukrainian authorities".


The local authorities whom these Dutch and others have been talking too/dealing with are the people are the crash site - the separatist, the ones who voted to separate from the puppet coup leaders. I believe it is still in the separatists hands hence the assumption that they in fact are the separatists.

I haven't heard of any Kiev "local authorities" being at the crash site have you?

Who else would they be praising? Are you suggesting the separatists at the crash site stepped back in the first few days and allowed Kiev "local Authorities" to take control of the crash site?

----------


## jamescollister

Strange how people can be manipulated to believe things, bunch of Russian speaking people fighting for independence from a country they don't want to be part off, bad guys.

My history may be lacking, but seem to remember a bunch of English speakers, not wanting to be part of a country, took up arms, Texas, the Alamo. Jim

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
>  It says "local authorities" and in fact specifically "local Ukrainian authorities".
> 
> 
> The local authorities whom these Dutch and others have been talking too/dealing with are the people are the crash site - the separatist, the ones who voted to separate from the puppet coup leaders. I believe it is still in the separatists hands hence the assumption that they in fact are the separatists.
> 
> I haven't heard of any Kiev "local authorities" being at the crash site have you?
> 
> Who else would they be praising? Are you suggesting the separatists at the crash site stepped back in the first few days and allowed Kiev "local Authorities" to take control of the crash site?


No, I'm suggesting that the search and retrieval people wearing uniforms were party of the Ukranian civil apparatus and not the self-appointed "Prime Minister"'s militia.

Same goes for the volunteers.

----------


## OhOh

What a strange world we live in.

The USA/NATO bombs and sends in military in Iraq and call it Humanitarian Aid.

The Russians send:
_
"__To the east of Ukraine on the morning of August 12 departed 280  wagons with Russian Ministry of Emergency Situations humanitarian  aid.   _ 
_The cargo was sent from Moscow Narofominsk. Total cargo weight - 2000  tons. This is the most necessary things for the civilian population  affected by the carrying out of the military operation in the south-east  of Ukraine, namely 400 tons of cereals, 100 tons of sugar, 62 tons of  baby food, 54 tons of medical equipment and medicines, as well as 12  thousand sleeping bags and 69 power generators."_


The USA and EU call it an invasion. :Confused: 


How long before it crosses the border or is picked up by the NATO intelligence?
What will the Ukrainian military do when it crosses the border?

----------


## Begbie



----------


## Mr Earl

> I'd take my chances....


Brave man... so many thighs could prove mortal.

----------


## OhOh

Do Malaysian Airways fly to St Lois. MO, USA?

NOTAM Text

_"__FDC 4/2599 ZKC MO..AIRSPACE FERGUSON, MO..TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS  WITHIN AN AREA DEFINED AS 3 NM RADIUS OF 384428N0901812W (ST LOUIS  VORTAC STL129011.0) SFC-3000FT TO PROVIDE A SAFE ENVIRONMENT FOR LAW  ENFORCEMENT ACTIVITIES. PURSUANT TO 14 CFR SECTION 91.137(A)(2)  TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS ARE IN EFFECT. ONLY RELIEF AIRCRAFT  OPERATIONS UNDER DIRECTION OF ST. LOUIS COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT ARE  AUTHORIZED IN THE AIRSPACE. AIRCRAFT LANDING AND DEPARTING ST. LOUIS  LAMBERT AIRPORT ARE EXEMPT FROM THIS TFR. ST. LOUIS COUNTY POLICE  DEPARTMENT, TELEPHONE 314-889-2360, IS IN CHARGE OF THE OPERATION.  KANSAS CITY /ZKC/ ARTCC, TELEPHONE 913-254-8500, IS THE FAA COORDINATION  FACILITY. 1408121315-1408182000         "_

It seems to be only up to 1,000m. Look out if St. Louis ATC send you lower.

----------


## Cujo

What the fucks going on in St. Louise?

----------


## harrybarracuda

Flight Restriction Issued After Rioters Shoot At Helicopter | The Daily Caller

----------


## Takeovers

> 


Of course a russian speaking majority does not automatically translate to a referendum outcome in favor of Russia. If that were the case Russia would have pressed for an internationally supervised referendum in Crimea instead of faking one and military occupation. BTW speaking russian is not the same as being of russian descent. Many grew up speaking russian in that area who were not russian by origin.

After everything that has transpired though I think many in Crimea would now vote for Russia fearing retribution.

----------


## OhOh

ITAR-TASS: World - Flight recorders data from Malaysian crashed Boeing sent to countries concerned

_"SINGAPORE, August 15. /ITAR-TASS/. A preliminary report on the data of  flight recorders from Boeing-777, which crashed in Ukraine’s Donetsk  region, was sent to governments of the countries, which citizens died in  the catastrophe, Malaysia’s Minister of Transport Liow Tiong Lai said  on Friday. _ _The minister said the Netherlands would publish a report on the tragedy in early September._

_The Malaysia Airlines plane crashed en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur on July 17. All the 298 people onboard died."_


Movement at last!

----------


## sabang

> Of course a russian speaking majority does not automatically translate to a referendum outcome in favor of Russia.


True- but it most certainly did in Crimea, b'waaaah.

Eastern Ukraine has a somewhat different status, because it is not (or in the case of Crimea, was not) an autonomous republic. But I would be entirely in favor of a Referendum being held there, given current events. And by all means, let in UN monitors, and so on. I claim no insight in terms of what the people's choice would be (unlike Crimea, where it was bleedin' obvious), but let the People speak.

----------


## Takeovers

> True- but it most certainly did in Crimea, b'waaaah.


You got to be kidding. There was no such thing as an open and fair referendum. That's my point. They did not have one as they fully expected to lose it if they let it happen.

----------


## sabang

> they fully expected to lose it if they let it happen


You must be plain nuts, or heavily blinkered. Even, y'know, 'western approved' foreign correspondents were saying that the outcome was a done deal, even those that were loudly whinging about the rush.

More to your ire, I think Putin did exactly the right thing. I daresay it would be worse there now than eastern Ukraine, had he not.

----------


## OhOh

Lets face it no country would lie to start a war. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Takeovers

> You must be plain nuts, or heavily blinkered. Even, y'know, 'western approved' foreign correspondents were saying that the outcome was a done deal, even those that were loudly whinging about the rush.


The way it was handled, yes it was a done deal. Drive every opposition underground first and then have a referendum.

I repeat. If they were reasonably sure they would win a referendum they could have pushed for one under international supervision. They have not done that. That's sufficient proof that they expect they would not win. Not even in Krimea, certainly not in the areas they are forcibly taking now.

----------


## OhOh

An interesting situation map , I think it's a Ukrainian biased one. I have no idea of it's accuracy. The sources are tweets it seems

15 tanks moving to the border with soldiers on

A second site which may be a Russian one.

http://militarymaps.info/

----------


## harrybarracuda

I expect that they will call him a very naughty boy and make him promise not to do it again.

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 




> Sky faces inquiry over MH17 report
> 
> 
> 
> Ofcom received more than 200 complaints over broadcast of reporter Colin Brazier picking through luggage at crash site
> 
> Mark Sweney
> The Guardian , Monday 18 August 2014 11.15 BST
> 
> ...


Sky faces inquiry over MH17 report | Media | The Guardian

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

They're all one family when it comes down to it. The western patsy ukrainian forces welcomed by their own people.

----------


## jamescollister

Not read what was on the black boxes yet, they've had them long enough.
Wonder why no release of the info, cockpit voice recording, etc.

----------


## billy the kid

^ would they be saving those boxes for the trial ?
evidence.

----------


## jamescollister

> ^ would they be saving those boxes for the trial ?
> evidence.


No real  need to, planes all over the ground, what the pilot said or did way up in the air has no bearing on what happened on the ground.
But may have bearing if the pilot said we are under attack from fighters.

----------


## harrybarracuda

I don't see what value they will get from the flight recorders other than the exact moment and thus perhaps a geographical fix of exactly when it was struck, but everyone's denying doing it anyway, especially the "separatists" that were filmed sneaking that missile launcher back across the border afterwards.

*taps nose*.

----------


## jamescollister

> I don't see what value they will get from the flight recorders other than the exact moment and thus perhaps a geographical fix of exactly when it was struck, but everyone's denying doing it anyway, especially the "separatists" that were filmed sneaking that missile launcher back across the border afterwards.
> 
> *taps nose*.


Then no reason not to release the data, they released the ATC tapes on MAL 370. 
Plane does't appear to have blown to pieces mid air, shot down yes, pilots could have got off a mayday.

----------


## OhOh

> I don't see what value they will get from the flight recorders other than the exact moment and thus perhaps a geographical fix of exactly when it was struck, but everyone's denying doing it anyway, especially the "separatists" that were filmed sneaking that missile launcher back across the border afterwards.


It would also show it's altitude and any reduction. The ATC records would record the discussion between the pilot and ATC. The cockpit voice recorder may also indicate any discussion between the crew. The radar recordings of the NATO planes, the Ukrainian ATC etc. would show other planes in the area.

All relevant to the crash. Some have published an appraisal which has cast doubt on the westen media's hysterical reaction.

The "filmed sneaking that missile launcher" has also been questioned.

----------


## OhOh

DutchNews.nl - Dutch researchers to publish initial MH17 crash report next week

"Dutch researchers to publish initial MH17 crash report next week_Thursday 04 September 2014_
_The first results of the official Dutch  investigation into the crash of Malaysia Airways flight MH17 in Ukraine  will be published next Tuesday._

_The Dutch safety research council is in charge of the international  team of investigators looking into the crash, which is though to have  been caused by a missile. 

The information in the report will be  based on the black boxes, satellite images and evidence from Ukranian  air traffic control. The investigation is ongoing.

The aim is to  get as complete a picture as possible into what brought down the plane  on July 17, killing all 283 people on board. Of them, 198 were Dutch._

_© DutchNews.nl"_


It will be interesting to see the "truth".

----------


## koman

> It will be interesting to see the "truth".


But, if the "truth" does not fit into your own version of things, it will not be "truthful" will it?     Anyway it's only an initial report so it may not tell us that much.

----------


## sabang

> the report will be based on the black boxes, satellite images and evidence from Ukranian air traffic control


The latter of those three- h'mmm. And absolutely no physical evidence being produced from the fusilage- that surely is a major omission? But I do look forward to this report.

----------


## OhOh

> But, if the "truth" does not fit into your own version of things, it will not be "truthful" will it?


I will await this initial report to post an opinion on the incident, like, I might add, many of the crusader coalition leaders/MSM should have done.




> And absolutely no physical evidence being produced from the fusilage- that surely is a major omission?


Yes there were some suspicious holes around the cockpit. Caused from what, a fighter jet cannon, missile debris or even hand held machine guns after the crash. I would have thought a sample had been taken and been put through tests.

Along of course with the Russian radar evidence - already displayed to all, albeit a sanatised version, the NATO radar/audio and the NSA recordings of every word said  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   throughout the world.

----------


## Norton

Some stuff here to follow what the Dutch investigation team is doing. 

Dutch Safety Board | Investigations & Publication | Investigation crash MH17, 17 July 2014

----------


## Necron99

*Dutch report into MH17 finds crash caused by 'high-energy objects' from outside plane*


London: A large number of high-energy objects smashed through flight MH17, causing it to break up in mid-air and crash in eastern Ukraine, a preliminary report from crash investigators has found.
There was no distress message and no sign of any technical fault or pilot error, according to the Dutch Safety Board.
This impact caused the plane to break up in mid-air, according to the Dutch Safety Board.
All 298 people on board MH17 died in the crash, including 27 Australian citizens.

"Multiple holes and indentations" were found in wreckage from the cockpit and forward section of the plane.
A part of the cockpit roof also showed holes indicating the plane was penetrated from the outside.
"Material around the holes was deformed in a manner consistent with being punctured by high-energy objects [which] originated from outside the fuselage.
"The pattern of damage observed in the forward fuselage and cockpit section of the aircraft was consistent with the damage that would be expected from a large number of high-energy objects that penetrated the aircraft from outside."
The aircraft broke up in the air, with some parts continuing down and forward before breaking up further.
The black box recording from the cockpit ended abruptly with no sign of alarm, the report found.
"No aural warnings or alerts of aircraft system malfunctions were heard on the cockpit voice recording, which ended at 13.20:03 hrs," the report said. "Crew communication gave no indication that there was anything abnormal with the flight."
The engines were running normally at cruise power until the data recording stopped.
According to the report, MH17's flight plan was approved by all the usual air-traffic control centres.

The plane changed course over Ukraine to avoid thunderstorms. 
The Dutch Safety Board is taking the lead in the investigation, assisted by experts from Australia, Britain, Germany, Malaysia, the US, Ukraine and Russia.
The investigation covers the cause of the crash, the decision-making around flight routes and the availability of passenger lists.
Experts looked at photographs from the crash site, satellite images and the data recorders (black boxes). The flight recorder was slightly damaged in the crash but the memory module was intact, all 30 minutes of data were recovered and there was no evidence it had been tampered with.
The investigation was hampered because the flight came down in separatists' territory in eastern Ukraine, close to areas of heavy fighting.
Investigators were only able to make a few short visits to the crash site in late July, to take photographs of the wreckage.
The safety board's investigation into MH17 will continue "unabated" after the preliminary report, the Dutch Safety Board said.
The investigation may also include a return to the crash site.
On Monday Malaysia's Defence Minister Hishamuddin Hussein said he had agreed "in principle" with Ukraine that an international team of personnel from Australia, the Netherlands and Malaysia "should gain early safe access into the MH17 crash site".
However Mr Hussein said he had received a briefing from the chief of Ukraine's army that the crash side is "currently volatile and inaccessible".
The Dutch Safety Board said the information in the preliminary report was "tentative" and could change with further evidence.
The board's final report is expected within a year.
Crash investigators are unlikely to identify the source of the "high-energy objects" that downed the plane.
However on Monday the BBC's Panorama program quoted eyewitnesses saying they saw Russians operating a BUK missile launcher in the area where MH17 was shot down.
BUK missiles are designed to explode near their target, sending shrapnel shredding through it.
The pro-Russian separatists in the area have denied they possessed a BUK.
However the BBC reported that photographs and videos cast doubt on this claim.
One eyewitness saw the missile-launcher being deployed from a truck at Snezhnoye, close to the crash site, just hours before MH17 came down.
The eyewitness told the BBC that the crew were "well-disciplined, unlike the rebels, and not wearing the standard Ukrainian camouflage uniform sported by government and rebel troops alike".
Russia is unlikely to accept the report if it suggests they were involved in shooting down the plane.
A recent editorial in Pravda said "Most likely the story of the downed plane will be hidden away carefully  it is clear that neither the [separatist] militia nor Russia were involved in the terrible disaster.
"The only question is whether Ukraine incidentally shot down the Boeing or it was a carefully planned but ineptly executed act of provocation."
The established narrative in Russian state-controlled media is that the plane was shot at by Ukrainian forces, either by a jet fighter or ground-based missile.


Read more: Dutch report into MH17 finds crash caused by 'high-energy objects' from outside plane

----------


## koman

> The pattern of damage observed in the forward fuselage and cockpit section of the aircraft was consistent with the damage that would be expected from a large number of high-energy objects that penetrated the aircraft from outside."


Sounds very much like what would be expected from an exploding SAM warhead of the type already discussed at great length on this thread.   If the holes were caused by cannon fire, you would think they would be able to confirm such a thing by this stage of the investigation.

----------


## OhOh

> you would think they would be able to confirm such a thing by


One would have thought so, indeed. One would have thought that missile fragments, cannon or machinegun  type  "high energy objects" would produce different types of damage.

The actual report is available here:

http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads...met_opmaak.pdf

None of these statements below are in the report published today, by the Dutch Authorities, and thus are speculative by the Sydney Morning Herald, not facts.

Edit: from a fuller report see post below both these statements are included in the longer report.




> The engines were running normally at cruise power until the data recording stopped. According to the report, MH17's flight plan was approved by all the usual air-traffic control centres.  The plane changed course over Ukraine to avoid thunderstorms.





> Experts  looked at photographs from the crash site, satellite images and the  data recorders (black boxes). The flight recorder was slightly damaged  in the crash but the memory module was intact, all 30 minutes of data  were recovered and there was no evidence it had been tampered  with.


It is also speculative of the BBC to publish yet more conspiracy theories/propaganda without publishing the many alternatives available..




> However on Monday the BBC's Panorama program  quoted eyewitnesses saying they saw Russians operating a BUK missile  launcher in the area where MH17 was shot down.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> It is also speculative of the BBC to publish yet more conspiracy theories/propaganda without publishing the many alternatives available.


There are no plausible alternatives, except the ones Vladimir's KGB buddys circulate for gullible folk such as yourself to gobble up.

----------


## koman

> Russia is unlikely to accept the report if it suggests they were involved in shooting down the plane.


Well they do say that the first and best defence is to deny deny deny... even you're caught red handed with a smoking gun standing over the body.

 :smiley laughing:

----------


## jamescollister

Don't know much about SAMs, but would have thought they detonated on proximity, not above their target. 
Just me may be, would think the missile would fly up to the target not over it.

----------


## Necron99

> Don't know much about SAMs, but would have thought they detonated on proximity, not above their target. 
> Just me may be, would think the missile would fly up to the target not over it.



Who said i flew over it??

----------


## OhOh

The BUK missiles allegedly fire small "darts" or steel balls. They allegedly explode in front/close too the planes so that the target flies into a exploding ball of the said darts. 



It is somewhat surprising that no "darts" , cannon or machine gun bullets were found embedded in the plane structure.

----------


## OhOh

> except the ones Vladimir's KGB buddys circulate for gullible folk such as yourself to gobble up.


As opposed to your "sources" eh?

----------


## Necron99

> The BUK missiles allegedly fire small "darts" or steel balls. They allegedly explode in front/close too the planes so that the target flies into a exploding ball of the said darts. 
> 
> 
> 
> It is somewhat surprising that no "darts" , cannon or machine gun bullets were found embedded in the plane structure.



How can it be surprising when there has been no forensic examination of the wreckage as of yet?

----------


## Takeovers

> How can it be surprising when there has been no forensic examination of the wreckage as of yet?


Oh there was. Remember the terrorists stopped experts for several days. Be sure they went over it with a fine comb in that time. Not that they could make all evidence disappear if a really good examination was possible. But probably good enough, that the deniers can close their eyes to the evidence and claim it is all fake.

----------


## jamescollister

> "Multiple holes and indentations" were found in wreckage from the cockpit and forward section of the plane.
> A part of the cockpit roof also showed holes indicating the plane was penetrated from the outside.


 To me that means detonation above and in front, planes flying fast and high, ground missile, to my way of thinking, would be under and chasing.
Missile people may know better.

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

> As opposed to your "handlers" eh?


Fixed that for you  :Smile:

----------


## Necron99

> Originally Posted by Necron99
> 
> "Multiple holes and indentations" were found in wreckage from the cockpit and forward section of the plane.
> A part of the cockpit roof also showed holes indicating the plane was penetrated from the outside.
> 
> 
>  To me that means detonation above and in front, planes flying fast and high, ground missile, to my way of thinking, would be under and chasing.
> Missile people may know better.



A SAM like that fired at an approaching plane would have gone off in front of the jet so it flies through the shrapnel cloud. There is nothing to suggest the SA was chasing the plane.
And let's keep in mind all they have at the moment is a cursory inspection of a few pieces with some photos to work with as the rebels have made recovery of the wreckage impossible.

----------


## OhOh

Here is a link to a 34p version of the crash report:

http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads...nteractief.pdf

----------


## wasabi

This will be turned into a political football.

----------


## zygote1

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> except the ones Vladimir's KGB buddys circulate for gullible folk such as yourself to gobble up.
> 
> 
> As opposed to your "sources" eh?


Unfortunately, it seems history has repeated itself.
Following the loss of KLA 007, the Soviet Union adamantly denied that it shot down the Korean airline. Following President Reagan's speech where he made clear that the USA and the world knew what the Soviets had done, the pressure grew. 5 days later, the Soviets admitted they shot down the passenger airliner. Then the Soviets had a new explanation, the Korean airliner was a special spy plane and  the Soviets were justified in  killing all aboard.  A thorough investigation ensued, and the truth came out after some time. The recordings of the Russian pilots were there, the facts were established and then the sh*t hit the fan.

In this catastrophe we have seen a poor response from the POTUS, probably the worst reaction imaginable. I have long been sympathetic to Obama and not a big fan of Reagan, but in this case, it is obvious that Obama lost the initiative and his team screwed the pooch badly. This will go down in history as one of Obama's biggest  political misjudgements. The Russians learnt from their experience of getting caught red handed on the KLA 007 fiasco and did their utmost to obfuscate, tamper with evidence and to sabotage the investigation. The EU and the non aligned countries are culpable too in their refusal to speak out, with the EU offering  nothing but empty slogans and crocodile tears. What did Germany, France, Italy care about the loss of the Dutch, Malaysians and Australians. Their energy security was more important.

The Russians have blood on their hands and they know it. Putin has cemented his legacy as a calculated violent  thug with this massacre. However, the EU and much of the world shares responsibility too because they have remained silent. And dear old Obama who will soon go off into the sunset to collect his speaking fees, will have left the legacy of not showing decisive leadership when it was most needed.

----------


## sabang

> The Russians have blood on their hands and they know it.


Are you specifically suggesting the Russian military shot down the flight, as opposed to Ukrainian seperatists (or a Ukrainian jet)? 



> Putin has cemented his legacy as a calculated violent thug with this massacre.


Are you suggesting a civilian airliner was deliberately targeted, on Putin's orders? Whoever the guilty party is, I rather doubt it was a case of a civilian airliner being deliberately targeted.

Waiting for some decent commentary on the ballistics report- thus far, can not say if the hull damage is consistent with cannon fire or HE-frag.

----------


## koman

Extracts from post 577 

The BBC's Panorama program quoted eyewitnesses saying they saw Russians operating a BUK missile launcher in the area where MH17 was shot down.

 BUK missiles are designed to explode near their target, sending shrapnel shredding through it.

 The pro-Russian separatists in the area have denied they possessed a BUK.
 However the BBC reported that photographs and videos cast doubt on this claim.

 One eyewitness saw the missile-launcher being deployed from a truck at Snezhnoye, close to the crash site, just hours before MH17 came down.

 The eyewitness told the BBC that the crew were "well-disciplined, unlike the rebels, and not wearing the standard Ukrainian camouflage uniform sported by government and rebel troops alike".

There ya go Sabang. All in a nice neat package for you..... :Smile:

----------


## zygote1

> Originally Posted by zygote1
> 
> The Russians have blood on their hands and they know it.
> 
> 
> Are you specifically suggesting the Russian military shot down the flight, as opposed to Ukrainian seperatists (or a Ukrainian jet)? 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I believe that;
-  Russians brought down the civilian airliner.
-  It was a local initiative and that they most likely did not realize it was a Malaysian civilian aircraft. I don't think that the people who fired the missile cared much if it was a civilian airliner. 
- Putin did not specifically order the downing of the civilian aircraft and the resulting massacre. However, his decision to put Russian troops on the ground and to deploy such lethal anti aircraft equipment coupled with the classic ineptitude of  his senior officers failure to anticipate such a potential catastrophe indicates a callous disregard for collateral damage. I suppose they were equally as surprised that civilian airlines were still flying over a war zone where aircraft were being shot down. The resulting attempts to cover up suggest a Russian realization that there was a major screw-up. Hence, the inevitable culpability.

The truth will eventually come out. Sooner or later some of the people involved will crack.  It won't be easy living with the knowledge that they murdered civilians including children. They will have the images of the dismembered bodies and the debris imprinted on their brains. No amount of pills or booze will make it go away. The scene will eat at them over the years and they'll talk. The demons of their minds will haunt them until they confess.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> And dear old Obama who will soon go off into the sunset to collect his speaking fees, will have left the legacy of not showing decisive leadership when it was most needed.


And what exactly do you think he should do? Start a war with Russia?

----------


## Neverna

> The truth will eventually come out. Sooner or later some of the people involved will crack.  It won't be easy living with the knowledge that they murdered civilians including children. They will have the images of the dismembered bodies and the debris imprinted on their brains. No amount of pills or booze will make it go away. The scene will eat at them over the years and they'll talk. The demons of their minds will haunt them until they confess.


 :rofl: 

Good one. 

Talking from experience, are you?

----------


## zygote1

> Originally Posted by zygote1
> 
> 
> And dear old Obama who will soon go off into the sunset to collect his speaking fees, will have left the legacy of not showing decisive leadership when it was most needed.
> 
> 
> And what exactly do you think he should do? Start a war with Russia?


Here was how it's done, courtesy of Ronald Reagan, President of the USA.
It was to the point and succinct. I suggest you give it a watch. Obama could have  added his usual restrained  sober  thoughts, but he didn't say much.





I not a Republican, nor am I a US national and it pains me to praise someone from a party I usually loathe. There was enough evidence for President Obama to do similar.

----------


## zygote1

> Originally Posted by zygote1
> 
> 
> The truth will eventually come out. Sooner or later some of the people involved will crack.  It won't be easy living with the knowledge that they murdered civilians including children. They will have the images of the dismembered bodies and the debris imprinted on their brains. No amount of pills or booze will make it go away. The scene will eat at them over the years and they'll talk. The demons of their minds will haunt them until they confess.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good one. 
> ...


Yes.
And no I never murdered anyone.  However, I hope you never have to experience the after effects of state sanctioned violence.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by zygote1
> ...


Are you serious? You think Russia gave a monkey's flying fuck about some senile B-actor reading lines off an autocue?

 :rofl:

----------


## OhOh

It's not just one crusader coalition leader who needs to apologies to the world. The rest do along with the MSM. 






For harry bsnub.

The Daily Mirror on page 17, yes not the front page has a report: 

_"MH17 "broke up in mid air"

Flight MH17 was brought down by "multiple high energy objects", an official report indicated yesterday.

Investigators said that the Malaysian Airlines plane - carrying 298 people - broke up in mid air over Ukraine.
In the preliminary report  the Dutch Safety board said the wreckage of the Boeing 777 had shown  multiple holes and indentations".
It is widely believed a ground - to - air missile caused the crash on July 17th over an area in the east where pro-Russian rebels are fighting."_

Backtracking to say the least. :Smile:

----------


## wasabi

Quote
Your are correct, but Russians know this, and no doubt the Russians who actually pulled the trigger, will be whisked away to a Gulag camp. 
They will disappear from the Radar.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> I never posted the fucking Regan video in the first place.


My apology, since you jumped into the conversation straight after I assumed it was in response to that post. I now accept that you in fact did not post the irrelevant Ronnie video, and shall cover myself in sackcloth and ashes and wail and gnash my teeth.

I still want to know how a pensioner bleating on TV brought down the iron curtain.

----------


## koman

> shall cover myself in sackcloth and ashes and wail and gnash my teeth.


We will need a video of that; if you please......... :Smile: 





> I still want to know how a pensioner bleating on TV brought down the iron curtain.


I can't believe that this is a serious question.  Nobody that I can see has suggested that Regan alone brought down the iron curtain, but he did, along with a number of other notable leaders of the day, oversee it's demise and final death throes.   He, being the president of Gods appointed super power... :Smile:  played a prominent leadership role...that's all.   Were you incommunicado back in those days or what?... :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> shall cover myself in sackcloth and ashes and wail and gnash my teeth.
> 
> 
> We will need a video of that; if you please.........
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Rubbish, he was a talking head, even Nancy had to whisper his lines in his ear.

Now going back to my original question which still has not been answered: What would you rather Obama (and/or his military and advisors) actually do?

Send troops into Ukraine to kick out the Russians? Bomb the separatists?

Or stick to speeches where he calls them naughty boys and threatens to take away their toys?

----------


## OhOh

> Send troops into Ukraine to kick out the Russians? Bomb the separatists?


Already there and already bombing. Unfortunately not an ounce of Russian flesh has been found rotting on the ground since the start of yet another illegal war.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
>  Send troops into Ukraine to kick out the Russians? Bomb the separatists?
> 
> 
> Already there and already bombing. Unfortunately not an ounce of Russian flesh has been found rotting on the ground since the start of yet another illegal war.


That's complete rubbish.

They might be arming the Ukranians but that's no more than Putin is doing to the separatists, and there is no doubt Russian troops have been there as well.

----------


## bsnub

> Originally Posted by OhOh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> ...


I wouldn't bother responding to this lemming. He is an official Russian/ISIS propagandist.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by OhOh
> ...


I know, but people with confirmation bias have to read it so they can get indignant.

 :Smile:

----------


## OhOh

^,^^^

Thanks Harry.




> That's complete rubbish.  They might be arming the Ukranians but that's no more than Putin is doing to the separatists, and there is no doubt Russian troops have been there as well.


You have "evidence" of the Russian arms supply?
You have "evidence" that Russian troops are actively involved within Ukraine?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^,^^^
> 
> Thanks Harry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Of course.

BBC News - Captured Russian troops &#039;in Ukraine by accident&#039;

But you probably believe Russia's story that they were there "accidentally".

And these Russian APC's "accidentally" drove into Ukraine.



 :Smile:

----------


## OhOh

> But you probably believe Russia's story that they were there "accidentally".


Not at all mate, you think I'm an idiot? :Smile: 

As I have already posted. They were on holiday, traveling to their new time share beach front villa in Mariupol. They bought it on the internet from Mariupol Time Share. A recently formed Crimean company specalising in up and coming adventure holidays. Their wives were allowed to continue and are appearing in a revue bar as comedians.

According to Mariupol Time Share, there is a property boom this year

----------


## koman

*A review by Germany's foreign intelligence agency has found that MH17 was brought down by a missile fired by separatists.* Russia and Ukraine have blamed each other for the plane's downing. 

A detailed analysis conducted by Germany's federal intelligence service (BND) concluded that separatists near Donetsk were responsible for bringing down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, the news magazine Spiegel reported on Sunday. 

The Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 crashed in eastern Ukraine on July 17 while on route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. All 298 passengers on board were killed, most of them Dutch nationals.

BND President Gerhard Schindler presented the agency's findings, including satellite images and diverse photo evidence, to members of the parliamentary control committee responsible for monitoring the work of German intelligence on October 8.

According to Spiegel, the BND has intelligence suggesting that pro-Russian separatists captured a BUK air-defense missile system at a Ukrainian military base, and fired a missile on July 17 that exploded in the vicinity of the Malaysian aircraft.

International leaders and Ukraine's government have accused the separatists of firing at the commercial airliner with weapons supplied by Russia. Moscow has blamed Ukraine's military.

*"It was pro-Russian separatists," Spiegel quoted Schindler as saying. According to the magazine, he also told the panel that the BND's review had come up with unambiguous findings - for example, that claims from Russia that the missile had been fired by Ukrainian soldiers and that a fighter jet had been flying close to the Malaysian airliner were false.
*
A spokesman for the German Federal Prosecutor's Office in Karlsruhe told Spiegel that an investigation has been opened into unknown perpetrators because of the possibility that the downing constituted a war crime.

In September, a preliminary report by a Dutch investigative commission analyzed satellite and radar information, as well as the flight's black boxes. It concluded that the aircraft had likely been hit "by a large number of high-energy objects," but did not assign blame. A full report is expected in mid-2015.

nm/mkg (AFP, Reuters, dpa)

----------


## zygote1

Oh my. Looks like out the former East Germany's doyenne of the elites may have a bit of a problem on her hands. Perhaps a quick call to her friends in the  former stasi will help her muddle through.

----------


## OhOh

> According to Spiegel, the BND has intelligence suggesting that pro-Russian separatists


Well, if Gulf War II can start with "positive proof of weapons of mass destruction", suggestions that the BND has Intelligence is enough for me.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> According to Spiegel, the BND has intelligence suggesting that pro-Russian separatists
> 
> 
> Well, if Gulf War II can start with "positive proof of weapons of mass destruction", suggestions that the BND has Intelligence is enough for me.


It's OK OhOh....we all understand that you really can only believe RT and Pravda....both being so well known for truth and unfailing accuracy..... :Smile: ....well other that that English broadcast station in Teheran of course.... :rofl: .

----------


## OhOh

^Have you seen the evidence produced by the German Spy Agency? Are you convinced by the said evidence that the separatists are to blame? Did you believe Colin Powells evidence, shown to the world and used as a reason to start a war, at the UN many years ago?

----------


## koman

> ^Have you seen the evidence produced by the German Spy Agency? Are you convinced by the said evidence that the separatists are to blame? Did you believe Colin Powells evidence, shown to the world and used as a reason to start a war, at the UN many years ago?


No, the BND does not send me copies of their files as a rule. 

 I was just posting a news report that they claimed to have evidence?    Do you get files from the Russian intelligence people, or any of your other favorite sources?..

 No doubt, if the very same  BND said they had solid evidence that the plane was shot down by a CIA sponsored Ukrainian fighter while the lily white Russians were busy distributing powdered milk and Tampax...you would be posting it in brightly coloured oversized fonts, and the story would be irrefutable.... That's the kind of thing you WANT to believe so it would have to be true........ :smiley laughing: 

In the meantime, I'm happy to wait for the full report sometime next year...which you won't believe either;   unless it fits in with your own pre-judged version of events.

----------


## OhOh

So you report a "news story" but do not accept the printed evidence from them, why bother. If you have accepted that any new "evidence" will not be produced for at least a year, if ever, why post?

I have, from page five, suggested we await the evidence. So far I have seen no credible evidence from the crusader coalition except blurred images from google earth/digiglobe. The crusader coaliton from hours after the crash have told anyone who would listen that they new who did it - the Russians. Either directly or through their proxies, separatists. They have yet to prove anything.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> So you report a "news story" but do not accept the printed evidence from them, why bother. If you have accepted that any new "evidence" will not be produced for at least a year, if ever, why post?
> 
> I have, from page five, suggested we await the evidence. So far I have seen no credible evidence from the crusader coalition except blurred images from google earth/digiglobe. The crusader coaliton from hours after the crash have told anyone who would listen that they new who did it - the Russians. Either directly or through their proxies, separatists. They have yet to prove anything.


Weren't you the one denying that there were every Russians in Ukraine?

You are pitifully gullible.

----------


## koman

> *So you report a "news story*" but do not accept the printed evidence from them, why bother. If you have accepted that any new "evidence" will not be produced for at least a year, if ever, why post?


This thread is in World News...??  What do you expect people to post in a news thread???

----------


## OhOh

> Weren't you the one denying that there were every Russians in Ukraine?  You are pitifully gullible.


You have credible evidence of Russian military involvement in Ukrainian sovereign territory other than 4 or 5 bewildered soldiers on there way to their new holiday home in Russia?




> This thread is in World News...?? What do you expect people to post in a news thread???


When one posts onto a thread one usually puts some opinion of the "news" one posts. You obviously just post without realising the inadequacy of your posts or the infantile sheeps guaranteed reactions to them.

But carry on, point the way to the cliff edge, jump off and the lemmings will follow you.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> Weren't you the one denying that there were every Russians in Ukraine?  You are pitifully gullible.
> 
> 
> You have credible evidence of Russian military involvement in Ukrainian sovereign territory other than 4 or 5 bewildered soldiers on there way to their new holiday home in Russia?


"Their new holiday home"?

In a fucking APC?

You moron.

 :rofl:

----------


## OhOh

> In a fucking APC?


Plenty of room for the holiday clothes and shoes for the "ladies".  :Smile:

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## OhOh

Alleged satellite photos of a fighter plane shooting down the MH plane..

A pinch of salt or the truth? 

1. The fields beneath the Boeing don't seem to match the fields beneath the fighter too well!!
2. Who is Mr Beatle?
3. Why now?

TASS: World - Russia?s Channel One show satellite photo evidencing MH17 was downed by fighter jet

_"_ _                             © VESTI.RU_  
_MOSCOW, November 14. /TASS/. Russia’s  television Channel One said on Friday it had a photo presumably made by  a foreign spy satellite in the last seconds of Malaysia’s MH17 flight  over Ukraine._
_Channel One showed Ivan Andriyevsky, the first vice president of the  Russian Union of Engineers, demonstrating a photo sent by a George  Beatle, who had introduced himself as an air traffic controller with a  20-year working record."_

----------


## harrybarracuda

Equally credible is the possibility that Godzilla brought the plane down, as proven by this secret photograph taken on the day by controller Ringo McCartney.

----------


## Necron99

Has been debunked already.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2014...eing-attacked/

----------


## bsnub

Another crap post by Ohoh blown out of the water.  :rofl:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Another crap post by Ohoh blown out of the water.


Yes, but notice no-one has yet been able to debunk the Godzilla theory.

Wait till ENT finds out!

 :rofl:

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## koman

Wait for it.....  This fabrication will be attributed to the Americans;  who set it all up to look like it was done by the Russians.   It was done badly enough to be quite easily debunked.  The whole idea being to discredit the Russians and destroy whatever bit of credibility they might have....as well as cover up their own lack of real evidence that the plane was downed by the Russian separatist group using a Russian supplied missile battery........ :Smile: 

Just though I'd get that in before OhOh and ENT came along...... :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Wait for it.....  This fabrication will be attributed to the Americans;  who set it all up to look like it was done by the Russians.   It was done badly enough to be quite easily debunked.  The whole idea being to discredit the Russians and destroy whatever bit of credibility they might have....as well as cover up their own lack of real evidence that the plane was downed by the Russian separatist group using a Russian supplied missile battery........
> 
> Just though I'd get that in before OhOh and ENT came along......


But what if the Russians faked it to make it look like the US were faking it to make it look like the Russians did it?

Ahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

You'll never win with these arseholes, you know that don't you. All you can do is hold up the mirror and hope that they eventually realise how stupid they are.

Not that Albert Shagnever will, he's terminal I'm afraid.


 :Smile:

----------


## Neverna

You are being unfair to OhOh. He didn't post it as fact or as his own opinion. He said it was "Alleged satellite photos of a fighter plane shooting down the MH plane". He also asked the question, "A pinch of salt or the truth?".

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## harrybarracuda

> You are being unfair to OhOh. He didn't post it as fact or as his own opinion. He said it was "Alleged satellite photos of a fighter plane shooting down the MH plane". He also asked the question, "A pinch of salt or the truth?".


Why post it at all, it's obviously bollocks.

----------


## bsnub

> You are being unfair to OhOh. He didn't post it as fact or as his own opinion.


Umm no. Ohoh has made his opinions in this thread very clear. He is a tinfoil nutter who has his head buried up the Russian bears ass.

----------


## OhOh

Looks like "Pinch of salt" for this "News" item won then, except of course very personal and hurtful comments by the resident non believers which will make me sooooooooooooo sad. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## harrybarracuda

I notice no-one is commenting on the elephant in the room: Godzilla did it.

----------


## OhOh

Not many hot japanese babes here harry just some crusties from a colony.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Well here are a couple of Japanese babes with the new Godzilla. Notice how he's had plastic surgery in an attempt at covering up his heinous act.

----------


## OhOh

RedHot Tokyo has less use of ladies clothing.

----------


## pseudolus

'Ukrainian military worker' claims one of his country's fighter jets shot down MH17 | Daily Mail Online

Ahh so the merkins shot one Malaysia plane down, and the US sponsored fascists running Ukraine's airforce shot the other one down. 

What has the US got against Malaysian Airlines? Did they cancel a load of boeing orders and went with Airbus instead? 

 :Smile:

----------


## Neo

Perhaps Malaysia Airlines were thinking of not using Dollars to buy their fuel..

that'll learn 'em  :Wink:

----------


## harrybarracuda

As if we didn't know.....




> A metal fragment from the crash site of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 matches a surface-to-air BUK rocket, a Dutch broadcaster said Thursday, supporting a theory that the plane was downed by pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine.
> 
> The fragment was recovered by a Dutch journalist from the village of Hrabove several months ago near to where the plane was brought down last July, killing all 298 passengers and crew.
> 
> Dutch broadcaster RTL said it had had the shrapnel tested by international forensic experts, including defense analysts IHS Jane's in London, who said it matched the explosive charge of a BUK, a Russian-made anti-aircraft missile system.


Dutch TV Says Fragment From MH17 Crash Site Supports BUK Missile Theory | News | The Moscow Times

----------


## Cujo

> 'Ukrainian military worker' claims one of his country's fighter jets shot down MH17 | Daily Mail Online
> 
> Ahh so the merkins shot one Malaysia plane down, and the US sponsored fascists running Ukraine's airforce shot the other one down. 
> 
> What has the US got against Malaysian Airlines? Did they cancel a load of boeing orders and went with Airbus instead?


FFS I hope you're not serious.
If you are you are certifiable.

----------


## Markus

> As if we didn't know.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				A metal fragment from the crash site of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 matches a surface-to-air BUK rocket, a Dutch broadcaster said Thursday, supporting a theory that the plane was downed by pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine.
> 
> ...


  Ukrainianor Russian buk ?

----------


## harrybarracuda

Let's solve one conspiracy at a time eh?

 :Smile:

----------


## bsnub

Investigators from the Office of the National Prosecutor (OM) of the  Netherlands have completed the first phase of their work in definitely  determining the cause of the mid-aid explosion and crash of Malaysian  Airlines Flight 17 (MH17). Preliminary information leaked to the Dutch  media has concluded that a Russian unit is responsible for the  shootdown.
 Most of the collected debris from the aircraft, a Boeing 777 that  crashed on 17 July 2014 while en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur  with the loss of all 298 on board, is now spread out in hangers at the  Royal Netherlands Air Force's Gilze-Rijen airbase where investigators  have been probing the wreckage for evidence.
 The OM is part of a Joint International Team (JIT) conducting a  criminal investigation charged with initially identifying what brought  the aircraft down and from where. A second phase of the investigation is  to then identify those responsible and bring them before a court with  the proper jurisdiction.
 According to all of the evidence the JIT has reviewed, which has  included more than one million documents, photos and videos, the  conclusions to date are that the MH17 was downed by a Buk-M1-2  surface-to-air missile (SAM) launched from a Russian-owned battery that  was most likely manned by a Russian crew. Photos and video evidence, as  well as interviews with witnesses, prove that the battery was brought  across the border from Russia into Ukraine shortly before the shootdown.
 In order to fulfill the second half of its mission the investigation  team will now have to collect facts that would provide the basis for a  conviction in court. Chief prosecutor Fred Westerbeke told local news  outlets: "The investigation is fully ongoing, with more than a hundred  internationals involved. We are looking at forensic evidence, phone tap  analyses from the time around the crash, witness accounts, and many  different scenarios."
 The head of the prosecuting team then explained that central  questions that the investigation is trying to answer are: first, who  controlled the radar that provided the Buk battery with targeting  information; second, who commanded the crew; and, lastly, who gave the  order to fire? Radio and mobile telephone intercepts that have been  provided by the Ukrainian Security Service (SBU) are being used in this  effort.


Dutch investigation concludes MH17 downed by Buk missile from Russian battery - IHS Jane's 360

----------


## BobR

Regardless of which side did it or how it was done, the immediate decision to shoot the plane down was almost certainly made by a low ranking officer in the middle of a combat situation. Countries rarely admit mistakes such as this, and the fact someone screwed up on the battlefield does not implicate an entire government. 

The real question is why Malaysian Airlines was stupid enough to route their plane over a battle zone in the first place, several other airlines had already re-routed theirs.

----------


## Necron99

> Regardless of which side did it or how it was done, the immediate decision to shoot the plane down was almost certainly made by a low ranking officer in the middle of a combat situation. Countries rarely admit mistakes such as this, and the fact someone screwed up on the battlefield does not implicate an entire government. 
> 
> The real question is why Malaysian Airlines was stupid enough to route their plane over a battle zone in the first place, several other airlines had already re-routed theirs.



The EU Air traffic authorities had not closed the space and many other airlines were still flying over it.

----------


## BobR

> Originally Posted by BobR
> 
> 
> Regardless of which side did it or how it was done, the immediate decision to shoot the plane down was almost certainly made by a low ranking officer in the middle of a combat situation. Countries rarely admit mistakes such as this, and the fact someone screwed up on the battlefield does not implicate an entire government. 
> 
> The real question is why Malaysian Airlines was stupid enough to route their plane over a battle zone in the first place, several other airlines had already re-routed theirs.
> 
> 
> 
> The EU Air traffic authorities had not closed the space and many other airlines were still flying over it.


Then it just goes to the next level, why was the EU so stupid they did order planes re-routed?  That does not let Malaysian off the hook either, other airlines had re-routed on their own, Malaysian could have done the same.
Maybe the EU is trying to divert attention from their own incompetence?  Not flying over a battle zone where a "mistake" by any low ranking officer could cause disaster should have been a no-brainer, *to the smartest people in the industry it apparently was a no brainer.* 

_"The Malaysian airliner apparently shot down over rebel-held eastern Ukraine was flying over airspace that a number of other Asian carriers and Australia's Qantas abandoned months ago because of security concerns.
South Korea's two main airlines, Korean Air and Asiana, as well as Qantas and Taiwan's China Airlines said they had all re-routed flights from as early as the beginning of March when Russian troops moved into Crimea.........Hong Kong's Cathay Pacific said it had not been using Ukrainian airspace 'for quite some time'." 
_
Flight MH17 took abandoned flight path

----------


## PeeCoffee

> 'Ukrainian military worker' claims one of his country's fighter jets shot down MH17 | Daily Mail Online
> 
> Ahh so the merkins shot one Malaysia plane down, and the US sponsored fascists running Ukraine's airforce shot the other one down. 
> 
> What has the US got against Malaysian Airlines? *Did they cancel a load of boeing orders and went with Airbus instead?*


Exactly what happened ! (I apologize as I'm three months after your post.)

Actually , Boeing Marketing forces will casually remind customers for orders in this manner. That's why they've got such a backlog on the books.

Actually, CT# 15905 states that the Engine Maintenace was overdue and Rolls-Royce Trent sent a reminder message to the 777-200 ER. The intercept of that message was deciphered incorrectly.
C'mon pseu, weren't you clued in advance ? 

A former agent told me you have the makings to become the Chosen One.
Sincerely the agency likes your schtick...'talented' was the precise word.  

RIP to those unfortunate souls and their families. So sad and unfortunate for all indeed.

----------


## OhOh

> Dutch investigation concludes MH17 downed by Buk missile from Russian battery Investigators from the Office of the National Prosecutor (OM) of the Netherlands have completed the first phase of their work in definitely determining the cause of the mid-aid explosion and crash of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 (MH17). Preliminary information leaked to the Dutch media has concluded that a Russian unit is responsible for the shootdown.


I am glad to hear that the investigation team appears, at last, to have agreed on an opinion. I await the full report along with their evidence. As usual.

Maybe others will arrive at a different conclusion, or maybe not. The 100% agreement that nobody was to "talk" seems to have been broken, so easily. 

Or is the release of the "leak" designed to become "fact" in the general publics mind?

----------


## Sumocakewalk

Almaz-Antey chief engineer Mikhail Malisevskiy says the missile was out of production in Russia but the
Ukraine army had 991 at the time of the attack. Photo: AP

The Sydney Morning Herald
June 3, 2015
By Nick Miller

Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was brought down by a 'Buk' ground-to-air missile, which exploded near the Boeing's cockpit then peppered the plane with shrapnel, a state-run Russian weapons manufacturer says. The claim confounds previous Kremlin claims that the flight was shot down by a Ukrainian fighter jet.

Moscow-headquartered Almaz-Antey  which has manufactured Buk missile systems since 2002  said it conducted its own analysis of the pattern of damage seen on pieces of MH17 wreckage recovered from the fields of eastern Ukraine.

That analysis showed that a Buk-M1 missile exploded 3-4 metres from the plane, close to the left side of the cockpit. Fragments from the warhead then hit the left wing and the left engine.

There was a distinctive 'double-T shape' to the damage which narrowed down the type of missile used, Mikhail Malisevskiy, chief engineer at the company, said at a news conference in Moscow on Tuesday, according to reports.

"If the Boeing was downed with an air defence missile, it could be only Buk-M1 and this type of missile," the company's director Yan Novikov told reporters. Mr Malisevskiy said that type of missile was out of production in Russia but the Ukraine army had 991 such missiles at the time of the attack.

The company also claimed it could prove the missile was shot from a region controlled by Kiev's forces, not separatists. The Russian military has previously made similar claims.

Almaz-Antey held the press conference to try to persuade the EU to lift sanctions against it, by showing it could not have manufactured the missile that brought down MH17.

All 298 people on board MH17 died in the crash on July 17 last year, including 27 Australian citizens.

Eliot Higgins, a British citizen journalist who has co-ordinated a 'crowd-sourced', international effort to investigate the MH17 crash, said the Almaz-Antey press conference marked a significant back-down by Russia. "This is probably as close as we are going to get to Russia admitting that a Buk missile was used to shoot down MH17," he said.

The prevailing counter-narrative, promoted by Kremlin's so-called "troll army" of patriotic bloggers, had been that a Ukrainian SU-25 plane shot down MH17. However the story was forced to change in the face of mounting evidence, including that gathered by Higgins' "Bellingcat" group.

Higgins said the company's theory as to the launch site of the missile did not match available evidence  and in any case still pointed to an area controlled by Russia-supported separatists. "All the evidence points in one direction," he said. "If they want to stick with this (alternative) launch site they have to explain why it is in separatist territory, and why no-one saw it there."

His group had persuasive evidence, including satellite photographs, eyewitness reports and video, that the Buk missile launcher had arrived from Russia a few weeks before, was fired from separatist-controlled territory, and then returned to Russia, he said.

MH17 plane was shot down by a Buk missile, Russian weapons manufacturer says

----------


## baldrick

> *Satellite images provided by the Russian  government as "proof" that Ukraine shot down Malaysia Airlines Flight  MH17, which resulted in the death of 298 passengers, were digitally  altered and the dates faked, according to a forensic analysis report.* 
> 
> 
> You’d think in the digital age that no country would dare Photoshop  satellite images and then use those images to blame a different country  for shooting down a plane that resulted in all 298 passengers being  killed. Yet that’s exactly what Russia did to point the finger of blame  at Ukraine for downing Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17, according to  forensic analysis of publicly available satellite images.
> On July  17, 2014, MH17, a Boeing 777, was shot down over eastern Ukraine; days  later, the Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) held a press conference,  blaming Ukraine for shooting down MH17 and releasing six satellite  images as proof.
> Bellingcat, a group of independent journalists, launched an investigation; on May 31 the group reported  that the Russian’s claims “are a clear attempt by the Russian  government to deceive the public, global community, and the families of  the Flight MH17 victims.” Bellingcat released a report covering forensic  analysis of satellite images (pdf). The group analyzed public images available through Google Earth before concluding:
>  On 21 July 2014, the Russian Ministry of Defense presented digitally  modified and falsely dated satellite images to the international public  in order to implicate the Ukrainian army in the downing of MH17. Later,  on 1 August 2014, the MoD again published digitally altered and falsely  dated satellite imagery with the release of Picture 5-analytics.


Russia Photoshopped satellite images to blame Ukraine for shooting down MH17: report | Computerworld

----------


## OhOh

^So, we have a version produced by the Russian military. We have a version produced by a UK based, could or could not be honest, 10 month old, resourced by who knows, blogging company using Google photos as thier comparative reference benchmark. 

Yes the same Google who has admitted working for the crusader coalition governments.


If you care to look at body of the report that in the linked pdf file of their? analysis includes phrases such as:

"Therefore, *it is highly likely* that the cloud in Picture 4 is not part of the original image and was added later."

are accepted by the report writers as proof.

From their Summary page, which lets face it, is the most many read.
_
"The forensic analysis conducted by the Bellingcat investigation team clearly and undoubtedly demonstrates that the dates of the satellite photos have been falsified"_

From, in the report body, *it is highly likely*, to in the summary, _clearly and undoubtedly demonstrates_ .

Would you go to war over something "highly likely", or maybe wait for real proof?

The crusader coalition has history of genocide using "highly likely" intelligence/propaganda/sexed up analysis  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  which later turned out to be total proven fabrication. Are they at it again?

----------


## Norton

> Would you go to war over something "highly likely", or maybe wait for real proof?


I wouldn't  but some would.  :Wink: 

 :gw bush:

----------


## harrybarracuda

Anyone with half a brain cell knows that the Russian-backed separatists took this down using Russian-supplied missiles, which were then spirited away over the border.

If they'd just admitted they shot down a civilian aircraft thinking it was a military one, this would be done and dusted by now.

Unfortunately those that suck on the Putin cock will always have plenty of bullshit to nestle in.

----------


## Neo

If you were to take the track record of oligarch dictator Putin and compare it against that of the US puppet corporatocracy and still decide that Putin is Satan, you really are one dumb ass dipshit motherfucker... I mean, in general... not just you harry  :Yup:

----------


## OhOh

> not just you harry


Only sometimes  :Smile:  eh

----------


## baldrick

> Would you go to war


no .  but then again I don't think I suggested I would

----------


## eceg

Must see.
A 45 min docu on MH 17 on German TV channel DW or DW.com
Sunday 5th July. English version at 02.15 + 08.15 + 14.15 +22.15

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Must see.
> A 45 min docu on MH 17 on German TV channel DW or DW.com
> Sunday 5th July. English version at 02.15 + 08.15 + 14.15 +22.15


What's the title?

----------


## klong toey

^Fatal Flight MH 17 | Documentaries and Reports | DW | 04.07.15 | DW.COM

----------


## Klondyke

MH17 Eyewitness, but nobody wants to listen

Lev Aleksandrovich ? MH17 eyewitness ? 7mei.nl

----------


## harrybarracuda

> MH17 Eyewitness, but nobody wants to listen
> 
> Lev Aleksandrovich ? MH17 eyewitness ? 7mei.nl


What good fortune that a retired miner just happened to have a militarygrade  monocular laying around and knows the difference between an airbus and a boeing.

 ::chitown::

----------


## OhOh

If the Chinese/Taiwanese can conclude the crash reason from an aircraft crash in a month or two why are "exceptional" countries taking years?

----------


## OhOh

> just happened to have a militarygrade monocular laying around


He normally uses it around the village in the darker hours as his wife was killed by the explosive hailstones that have recently become extremely frequent.

Must be global warming. :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> If the Chinese/Taiwanese can conclude the crash reason from an aircraft crash in a month or two why are "exceptional" countries taking years?


Yes, why didn't the cockpit voice recorder have "Fuck me, we're being attacked by fighters!" on it?

----------


## OhOh

A British pilot, Roger, would say, 

"Take over for a while will you, Dickie, I have a few tracers in the old wrigleys gum, there's a chap".

Hi Co-pilot Dickie replies, " Roger, Roger. I say, old bean, is that a our engine dropping off?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> A British pilot, Roger, would say, 
> 
> "Take over for a while will you, Dickie, I have a few tracers in the old wrigleys gum, there's a chap".
> 
> Hi Co-pilot Dickie replies, " Roger, Roger. I say, old bean, is that a our engine dropping off?


No, he'd say "Cripes, we've got bandits at 12 o'clock high!".

 :Smile:

----------


## Troy

^ Joking aside, our man with the super duper 7x50s said the Su was climbing and going North which would put it at around 2 O'clock low relative to the 777. I say super duper because they had enough magnification to see the tail numbers and a FOV of over a 1000m to see the attacker close in....

Still you can't believe everything you read on the tin...

----------


## OhOh

Is the Dutch crash report due, there are stories attributed to US Government Officials appearing in the press. The "draft" report is allegedly currently being reviewed/approved/amended by many government agencies around the world. I assume the Dutch are strong enough to ignore the "pressure".  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Sources: MH17 report blames Russian missile - CNNPolitics.com

_"U.S. officials concluded Malaysia Airlines  flight MH17 was struck by a missile and shot out of the sky. A final  report from investigators has yet to be released but CNN has learned new  details from the draft investigative report for the July 17, 2014  incident.Dutch accident investigators  say that evidence points to pro-Russian rebels as being  responsible for  shooting down MH-17, according to a source who has seen the report.

__According  to the source, the report says it was a Buk missile -- a Russian  surface-to-air missile -- that was used, launched from a village in  Russian rebel controlled territory._

_The  Malaysian Airlines flight went down in the Donetsk area of Ukraine.  According to two sources with knowledge of the investigation, a draft of  an investigative report authored by the Dutch Safety Board, the lead  agency in the investigation, has been distributed for review to numerous  agencies around the world including the National Transportation Safety  Board, Federal Aviation Administration and Boeing._
_The draft investigative report is several hundred pages long._ 

_Another  source with knowledge of the report's details says it gives a minute by  minute timeline of flight MH17.  This source also says not only does  the draft report pinpoint where the missile was fired from it identifies  who was in control of the territory and pins the downing of MH17 on the  pro-Russian rebels."

" a draft of an investigative report  authored by the Dutch Safety Board, the lead agency in the  investigation, has been distributed for review to numerous agencies  around the world including the National Transportation Safety Board,  Federal Aviation Administration and Boeing.__The draft investigative report is several hundred pages long."_


I wonder when comments will be made public from the Russian authorities. That is presuming Russia received the report, if it is a member of the worldwide safety of civilian airlines, organistation





Unexpectedly another source of "news" has offered a second opinion.  :Smile: 

http://rt.com/news/273943-mh17-crash-missile-ukraine/

_"The version that the Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was downed by an  air-to-air missile nearly a year ago is the one in priority, said  Russia’s Investigative Committee head Vladimir Markin. He added that the  rocket was not Russian made._

_   Russia’s IC has been conducting its own investigation into the   crash that saw 298 people killed in a plane crash in eastern   Ukraine. Markin said that he considers the version of the MH17   downing on July 17, 2014 over eastern Ukraine by an air-to-air   missile to be in priority. 
_

_   “Moreover, experts suppose that the rocket type established   was not manufactured in Russia,” he told TASS on Wednesday"_

----------


## BobR

> "U.S. officials concluded Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was struck by a missile and shot out of the sky. A final report from investigators has yet to be released but CNN has learned new details from the draft investigative report for the July 17, 2014 incident.Dutch accident investigators say that evidence points to pro-Russian rebels as being responsible for shooting down MH-17, according to a source who has seen the report


Politics have gone way too far in this sad event.  Whoever did it, it was almost certainly a accident of war, not a deliberate effort to kill civilians, and the airline deserves at least half the blame for knowingly flying over a war zone.  

If the US wants to make an issue of this, maybe it's appropriate to bring up the shooting down of Iran Air Flight 655 in which the plane was exactly where it should have been but the Americans were meddling in the neighborhood. Why was there no criminal trial or court martial over that?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

----------


## harrybarracuda

> If the US wants to make an issue of this, maybe it's appropriate to bring up the shooting down of Iran Air Flight 655 in which the plane was exactly where it should have been but the Americans were meddling in the neighborhood. Why was there no criminal trial or court martial over that?
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655



But the Americans accepted an ICJ judgement and paid compensation.

Can you imagine Putin doing that?

----------


## hazz

^Two very similar events. the tragic and expected consequence of handing a dangerous weapon to a monkey in a uniform.

Fortunately for the Scotts and Russians the Americans are unlikely to sort this out by having a bomb put on a Russian civilian airliner.

----------


## OhOh

> Whoever did it, it was almost certainly a accident of war, not a deliberate effort to kill civilians,


So not the Russians then  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): . As we know everything they do is a dastardly, premeditated act of pure evil.

Of course if it was crusader coalition backed, armed terrorists it was a ACCIDENT/MISTAKE.

You know like accidentally forgetting to buy some milk on the way home.  :Smile:  

I recognise your nuances now.






> Fortunately for the Scotts and Russians the  Americans are unlikely to sort this out by having a bomb put on a  Russian civilian airliner.


No need for the messy bomb in plane jolly, the Americans have that wonderful new "disappearing" over the ocean weapon, unfortunately it only works with Malaysian Airlines planes.

The Russians also monitor how many "Americans/bankers" suddenly cancel their plane tickets. It's just a hint that something is about to "disappear" over the ocean.

----------


## BobR

> Originally Posted by BobR
> 
> 
> If the US wants to make an issue of this, maybe it's appropriate to bring up the shooting down of Iran Air Flight 655 in which the plane was exactly where it should have been but the Americans were meddling in the neighborhood. Why was there no criminal trial or court martial over that?
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
> 
> 
> 
> But the Americans accepted an ICJ judgement and paid compensation.
> ...


OK  Good point Harry.

----------


## Klondyke

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by BobR
> ...


 
??? "Accepted the ICJ judgement"??? However, "...did not admit legal liability..."
Is it the same what the wiki says?

The United States government did not formally apologize to Iran.[14] In 1996, the United States and Iran reached a settlement at the International Court of Justice which included the statement "...the United States recognized the aerial incident of 3 July 1988 as a terrible human tragedy and expressed deep regret over the loss of lives caused by the incident...".[15] As part of the settlement, the United States did not admit legal liability but agreed to pay on an _ex gratia_ basis US$61.8 million, amounting to $213,103.45 per passenger, in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims.

----------


## klong toey

I have not seen this video clip before,a year on who ever did this hope one day you will pay for your crime.

The Moment Militias Realise The Downed Plane Is A Passenger Jet

----------


## wasabi

I heard on the news today that Russia used its veto at the U.N to stop a formal investigation into this shooting.
Russia doesn't want an enquiry, simple.

----------


## OhOh

> I heard on the news today that Russia used its veto at the U.N to stop a formal investigation into this shooting. Russia doesn't want an enquiry, simple.


Is their any requirement from yet another one? Shall we ever see the results of the "official" crash investigation?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by wasabi
> 
> I heard on the news today that Russia used its veto at the U.N to stop a formal investigation into this shooting. Russia doesn't want an enquiry, simple.
> 
> 
> Is their any requirement from yet another one? Shall we ever see the results of the "official" crash investigation?


Russia should just admit it happened, refuse to accept any blame and pay compensation.

That's what those damned yanquis did over Iran Air 655.

----------


## Takeovers

It was quite obvious from the beginning, what happened. Initially the pro russian militia even bragged about the shootdown on social media. They deleted it when they realized they had shot down a civilian airliner. Actually quite a gross misjudgement as the plane was flying very high at normal cruising altitude, but a misjudgement, not intention. It was the first time ever that a civilian airliner on an internationally recognized flight path at cruising altitude was shot down.

To my knowledge the flight altitude separates it from the US forces shooting down an iranian airliner. The iranian plane flew much lower. Correct me if I am wrong.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> It was quite obvious from the beginning, what happened. Initially the pro russian militia even bragged about the shootdown on social media. They deleted it when they realized they had shot down a civilian airliner. Actually quite a gross misjudgement as the plane was flying very high at normal cruising altitude, but a misjudgement, not intention. It was the first time ever that a civilian airliner on an internationally recognized flight path at cruising altitude was shot down.
> 
> To my knowledge the flight altitude separates it from the US forces shooting down an iranian airliner. The iranian plane flew much lower. Correct me if I am wrong.


It was still a fuck-up and one would hope they've learned their lesson.

Nothing is going to bring the dead back, but the Russians should at least cough up some cash to the poor families.

That Putin is a miserable, tight-arsed c u n t.

----------


## pseudolus

> It was quite obvious from the beginning, what happened. Initially the pro russian militia even bragged about the shootdown on social media. They deleted it when they realized they had shot down a civilian airliner. Actually quite a gross misjudgement as the plane was flying very high at normal cruising altitude, but a misjudgement, not intention. It was the first time ever that a civilian airliner on an internationally recognized flight path at cruising altitude was shot down.
> 
> To my knowledge the flight altitude separates it from the US forces shooting down an iranian airliner. The iranian plane flew much lower. Correct me if I am wrong.


ANy idea who ordered the flight to change its flight path from its traditional one, the one it always took, every single day, 200 miles away to the flight path it actually took? Any ideas on this?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by Takeovers
> 
> 
> It was quite obvious from the beginning, what happened. Initially the pro russian militia even bragged about the shootdown on social media. They deleted it when they realized they had shot down a civilian airliner. Actually quite a gross misjudgement as the plane was flying very high at normal cruising altitude, but a misjudgement, not intention. It was the first time ever that a civilian airliner on an internationally recognized flight path at cruising altitude was shot down.
> 
> To my knowledge the flight altitude separates it from the US forces shooting down an iranian airliner. The iranian plane flew much lower. Correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> 
> ANy idea who ordered the flight to change its flight path from its traditional one, the one it always took, every single day, 200 miles away to the flight path it actually took? Any ideas on this?


Any idea what meds you should take to stop your OCD like necessity to keep posting bullshit like this?

Obviously not.

----------


## hazz

> Originally Posted by Takeovers
> 
> 
> It was quite obvious from the beginning, what happened. Initially the pro russian militia even bragged about the shootdown on social media. They deleted it when they realized they had shot down a civilian airliner. Actually quite a gross misjudgement as the plane was flying very high at normal cruising altitude, but a misjudgement, not intention. It was the first time ever that a civilian airliner on an internationally recognized flight path at cruising altitude was shot down.
> 
> To my knowledge the flight altitude separates it from the US forces shooting down an iranian airliner. The iranian plane flew much lower. Correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> 
> ANy idea who ordered the flight to change its flight path from its traditional one, the one it always took, every single day, 200 miles away to the flight path it actually took? Any ideas on this?


Thats a rather extraordinary claim, care to demonstrate that this flight never varied its flight plan... after all the information is in the public domain, or is this your usual problem of deciding something is true simply because you want it to be true.

. Ive fown between europe and asia quite a few times often using the same fight codes and well I've seem them use different flight plans... after all apart from air france most pilots like to fly around bad weather rather than though it.

----------


## OhOh

Supposition is one thing but to Accuse, Blame and Forget is scandalous. A few proven facts from the belated Dutch investigation may yet throw up some real clues backed with auditable evidence.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Supposition is one thing but to Accuse, Blame and Forget is scandalous. A few proven facts from the belated Dutch investigation may yet throw up some real clues backed with auditable evidence.


The investigation has shown that the plane was torn apart in mid air by metal fragments.

It's not their job to show that the Russians provided them.

----------


## pseudolus

> Originally Posted by pseudolus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Takeovers
> ...


Yeah you are right. It was 300 miles. MH17 listed as flying an alternative route on every flight for weeks before... and yet.... on one tragic day.... ahh well carry on. Hope you have packed your bags to go and fight in the front line against Russia.

----------


## OhOh

> The investigation has shown that the plane was torn apart in mid air by metal fragments.


A link to the Final Published Investigation report,  by the Dutch team, would be much appreciated.  :Smile:

----------


## pseudolus

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> The investigation has shown that the plane was torn apart in mid air by metal fragments.
> 
> 
> A link to the Final Published Investigation report,  by the Dutch team, would be much appreciated.


IS this the report that says at the start "well, he don't know, have no evidence, but being part of NATO here is what we think might have happened" ? That one?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> The investigation has shown that the plane was torn apart in mid air by metal fragments.
> 
> 
> A link to the Final Published Investigation report,  by the Dutch team, would be much appreciated.


Do you seriously think the final report will say something different?

If you do you're battier than pseudopuss.

http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads...nteractief.pdf

----------


## OhOh

> Do you seriously think the final report will say something different?  If you do you're battier than pseudopuss.


I would hope that this statement from the provisional report will be greatly expanded.

_"Noting that the investigation team has not yet had the opportunity to recover these_ _components for forensic examination, photographs from the wreckage indicated that the_ _material around the holes was deformed in a manner consistent with being punctured by_ _high-energy objects. The characteristics of the material deformation around the puncture_ 
_holes appear to indicate that the objects originated from outside the fuselage."

_Possibly to include the findings on the size and structure of the "objects". 

I would hope that some of the "objects" would be found embedded within the plane structures and thus clarify whether they were cannon shells or missile rods, flechettes or whatever. I hope that *all* radar recordings from all sides would be made available. To prove the possibility of other aircraft either being, or not being, in the area. I would hope that any missile launch track would be available from those monitoring the area are made available. A war zone in Europe not being covered from all angles by radar I believe is unbelievable.

So let's not, again, "Accuse Blame Punish and Forget the Facts". Let's await the full report.  publication - again. Then we can have a clear decision on who the "battier" posters are. :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> Do you seriously think the final report will say something different?  If you do you're battier than pseudopuss.
> 
> 
> I would hope that this statement from the provisional report will be greatly expanded.
> 
> _"Noting that the investigation team has not yet had the opportunity to recover these_ _components for forensic examination, photographs from the wreckage indicated that the_ _material around the holes was deformed in a manner consistent with being punctured by_ _high-energy objects. The characteristics of the material deformation around the puncture_ 
> _holes appear to indicate that the objects originated from outside the fuselage."
> ...


To save you fretting, you can keep your nonsensical "The Ukrainians shot it down" by simply saying it was an air-to-air missile.

It was a Buk and everyone knows it.

Stop protecting your fucking KGB dictator you silly fucker.

 :rofl:

----------


## Takeovers

This whole denial of the obvious is beyond ridiculous. They would have been much better off just admitting to the error. It would have been one of those errors in conflict that should not happen but do happen and would be long forgotten by now, except by the families of the dead.

----------


## OhOh

> Stop protecting your fucking KGB dictator you silly fucker.


 A silly fucker I am undoubtedly, to blame anybody is premature.




> This whole denial of the obvious is beyond ridiculous


Denial by whom? Or are you yet another, "Accuse, Blame, Sanction and Forget to actually produce evidence, sheep?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> Stop protecting your fucking KGB dictator you silly fucker.
> 
> 
>  A silly fucker I am undoubtedly, to blame anybody is premature.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As soon as any evidence is produced, you deny it anyway, so what's the fucking point?

----------


## OhOh

> As soon as any evidence is produced, you deny it anyway, so what's the fucking point?


I suppose my "credible level" may be higher than some. It's a dilemma I have with many facets of my life. Oh, the burdens that are thrust upon me. Woe is me.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> As soon as any evidence is produced, you deny it anyway, so what's the fucking point?
> 
> 
> I suppose my "credible level" may be higher than some. It's a dilemma I have with many facets of my life. Oh, the burdens that are thrust upon me. Woe is me.


It's not a "credible level" (whatever that is), it's just good old fashioned confirmation bias.

In other words you'll believe any old shit if it supports your position, and deny anything that doesn't.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Prosecutors: Possible BUK Missile Parts Found at MH17 Site

THE HAGUE, Netherlands — Aug 11, 2015, 7:47 AM ET
Associated Press

Dutch prosecutors have said for the first time that they have found possible parts of a BUK missile system at the site in eastern Ukraine where Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was brought down last year, killing all 298 people on board.

Prosecutors say in a statement Tuesday the parts "are of particular interest to the criminal investigation as they can possibly provide more information about who was involved in the crash of MH17."

Prosecutors have previously said they are treating a missile strike as the most likely scenario, but Tuesday's announcement was the first time they have described possible physical evidence of a missile.

However, they cautioned that the conclusion cannot yet be drawn "that there is a causal connection between the discovered parts and the crash of flight MH17."

Prosecutors: Possible BUK Missile Parts Found at MH17 Site - ABC News

----------


## OhOh

> Dutch prosecutors


Are these part of the official crash investigation, or a separate body. Do they have they their own investigation team or have they received copies of the final report?

If a separate team should they not hand over this, now of course from an unknown source, polluted evidence to the official team. The ABC report implies that the "prosecutor team" have collected evidence outside the official crash inquiry team.

Or are they trying to slowly announce the BUK missiles were from the Ukrainian army supply, controlled and used by Ukrainian army forces and produced in Ukrainian factories? :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> Dutch prosecutors
> 
> 
> Are these part of the official crash investigation, or a separate body. Do they have they their own investigation team or have they received copies of the final report?
> 
> If a separate team should they not hand over this, now of course from an unknown source, polluted evidence to the official team. The ABC report implies that the "prosecutor team" have collected evidence outside the official crash inquiry team.
> 
> Or are they trying to slowly announce the BUK missiles were from the Ukrainian army supply, controlled and used by Ukrainian army forces and produced in Ukrainian factories?


You really are a dick, aren't you?




> Cause and investigation of the air disaster
> 
> At the request of Ukraine, the Netherlands has been put in charge of investigating the cause of the disaster. The investigation will be conducted by the Dutch Safety Board (OvV).
> 
> MH17 incident | Issue | Government.nl

----------


## OhOh

Probably, but thank you anyway.

----------


## OhOh

A well put together scenario of the ill fated Malaysian plane crash.


MH17 ? THE LIE TO END ALL TRUTHS, AND THE NEW EVIDENCE | Dances With Bears

----------


## harrybarracuda

> A well put together scenario of the ill fated Malaysian plane crash.
> 
> 
> MH17 ? THE LIE TO END ALL TRUTHS, AND THE NEW EVIDENCE | Dances With Bears


You mean another carefully constructed fairy story?

----------


## OhOh

> carefully constructed fairy story


from Italian: that which is pinned to the scenery

Read it and let me have an opinion of the story, fairy or otherwise. I could be you life changing moment, take a peek.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> carefully constructed fairy story
> 
> 
> from Italian: that which is pinned to the scenery
> 
> Read it and let me have an opinion of the story, fairy or otherwise. I could be you life changing moment, take a peek.


I did and it's the usual, sly, pro-Russian innuendo, lacking in substantiated fact and therefore just another bollocks looney tunes piece that fits your tin foil hat conspiracy theory.

The author has his own news bureau in Russia. How the fuck do you think he gets away with that?

 :rofl:

----------


## harrybarracuda

The official report is released on October 13th.

It is expected to state that Buk missile fragments were found in at least one body.

You might be able to watch our tin foil hat merchants suddenly switch from the "an aircraft shot it down" conspiracy to an "It was a Ukrainian Buk" conspiracy.

----------


## OhOh

> It is expected to state that Buk missile fragments were found in at least one body


It was always about the perpetrators, not the methodology, for me Harry.

You need to look at whether it is "missile fragments" or "metal fragments", but you will continue with the exception propaganda to the end.

It will probably say "metal fragments". The source or the "metal fragments" may be the same as BUK missile projectiles metal. BUK missiles have been sold to many countries and are probably available to many armies if they choose to want one to use.

The issue here harry, and always has been, the demonisation of Russia without proof. Even if the only proof is the occurrence of "metal fragments" that doesn't pin the blame on Russia.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> It is expected to state that Buk missile fragments were found in at least one body
> 
> 
> It was always about the perpetrators, not the methodology, for me Harry.
> 
> You need to look at whether it is "missile fragments" or "metal fragments", but you will continue with the exception propaganda to the end.
> 
> ...


I think Russia was blamed in this instance because it is the aggressor in Ukraine.

But your attitude mirrors Putin's: Outright denial.

Plus throwing in some bollocks about "fighters being spotted" and "it's obviously bullet holes in the wreckage" to try and create doubt.

Utterly predictable propaganda, and frankly if there is a need to resort to such lies then it just demonstrates that Russia has something to cover up.

Funnily enough the USSR did exactly the same when it shot down KAL007:

First it was outright denial.

Then it was a "spy mission".

Then eight years after the USSR broke up they found out the Russians had found the flight data recorders very early on and hidden the fact.

Why can't you just accept that Russia has previous form when it comes to lying about things like this? 

It's in their nature, Putin is a Cold War relic.

----------


## OhOh

> Why can't you just accept that Russia has previous form when it comes to lying about things like this?


Many countries have previous form harry. What is unexceptional is the sheeple who suck it all up.

I still await the final report and will discuss with you when it is published, I promise.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
>  Why can't you just accept that Russia has previous form when it comes to lying about things like this?
> 
> 
> Many countries have previous form harry. What is unexceptional is the sheeple who suck it all up.
> 
> I still await the final report and will discuss with you when it is published, I promise.


Many countries have not shot down commercial airliners and then lied about it.

Be honest.

----------


## harrybarracuda

MH17 airliner destroyed by Buk missile fired from eastern Ukraine, Dutch report confirms - live

12.53
For the last few minutes, Tjibbe Joustra, Dutch Safety Board chairman, was giving journalists a brief overview of the report's main findings.

At the start of the conference, reporters were shown a partial reconstruction of the plane. Real wreckage from the plane was used.



Mr Joustra said a BUK missile was fired: "Flight MH17 crashed as a result of the detonation of a warhead outside the airplane against the left-hand side of the cockpit. This warhead fits the kind of missile that is installed in the BUK surface-to-air missile system."

He told journalists that "there was sufficient reason to close airspace above eastern Ukraine as a precaution at the time". He added that Ukrainian authorities did not do this.

The chairman said the missile was launched somewhere in an area of 320 square kilometres in eastern Ukraine. Three other flight operators were in the area as well, he added.

An air-to-air attack was excluded as a possible cause.



Arseny Yatseniuk said before the launch of the report that "there is no doubt that drunken separatists are not able to operate BUK systems and this means these systems were operated solely by professional Russian soldiers".
12.39

At the same time as MH17, three other flight operators were in the area, BBC reports.

MH17 was destroyed by a 9M314M war head carried by a BUK missile, which detonated outside the airplane above the left hand side of the cockpit.

The explosion occurred less than one metre from the aircraft, and instantly killed the three crew members in the cockpit at the time.

The position of the blast was partly confirmed by a “noise peak” in the final milliseconds of the inflight voice-recorder. By assessing the different timings of the sounds surge in four different

Thousands of bow-tie shaped and cubic elements made of ferrous metal were sent out by the detonation. Hundreds of them hit the aircraft and several were recovered from the bodies of the three crew members in the cockpit.

As a result of the explosion, the cockpit section broke off. The tail section probably crashed before the centre section, which landed upside down and caught fire. The crash site covered a total of 50 square kilometres.

12.36
The Dutch Safety Board says MH17 was destroyed by a 9M34M warhead carried on a Buk missile.

12.35
Relatives of the victims who attended a closed briefing before the publication of the Dutch report have told reporters that MH17 was hit by a BUK missile, and that the passengers were unconscious when they died.

Relatives said safety board officials did not mention the direction from which the missile was supposedly launched. The angle of impact is a contentious issue because Russian missile maker Almaz Antey insists the aircraft cannot have been shot down from the area of Snizhne, where a Buk missile system was seen under separatist control on the day of the disaster.

MH17 airliner destroyed by Buk missile fired from eastern Ukraine, Dutch report confirms - live - Telegraph

----------


## harrybarracuda

Animation here.

MH17 crash: Dutch Safety Board animation 'shows path of missile' - BBC News

----------


## Neverna

> Arseny Yatseniuk said before the launch of the report that "there is no doubt that drunken separatists are not able to operate BUK systems and this means these systems were operated solely by professional Russian soldiers".


Binary thinking by the Prime Minister of Ukraine. (aka Logical fallacy/False dilemma / Bifurcation fallacy?)

----------


## Seekingasylum

It is as if the entire civilised world is frightened to deal with the inescapable fact - this commercial airliner was attacked by Russian regular army personnel operating their SAM system on the border with the Ukraine.

Quite why is mystifying. Russia is responsible and sanctions must be applied immediately. The immediate cessation of commercial Russian flights permitted entry into the EU airspace would be reasonable start and the embargo by the Dutch of any Russian registered vessels into Rotterdam until Putin admits fill culpability and compensates the families for the murder of those passengers.

Putin is a lumpen thug and only understands brute force. About time NATO, the US and the EU kicked his sorry little gay ass.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> It is as if the entire civilised world is frightened to deal with the inescapable fact - this commercial airliner was attacked by Russian regular army personnel operating their SAM system on the border with the Ukraine.
> 
> Quite why is mystifying. Russia is responsible and sanctions must be applied immediately. The immediate cessation of commercial Russian flights permitted entry into the EU airspace would be reasonable start and the embargo by the Dutch of any Russian registered vessels into Rotterdam until Putin admits fill culpability and compensates the families for the murder of those passengers.
> 
> Putin is a lumpen thug and only understands brute force. About time NATO, the US and the EU kicked his sorry little gay ass.


But (at the moment) they need his gas.

----------


## OhOh

> Arseny Yatseniuk said before the launch of the report that "there is no doubt that drunken separatists are not able to operate BUK systems and this means these systems were operated solely by professional Russian soldiers".


He doesn't happen to be a somebody who  if the blame fell on Ukrainian involvement, might be prosecuted by any chance does he?




> MH17 was destroyed by a 9M314M war head carried by a BUK missile, which detonated outside the airplane above the left hand side of the cockpit.


A fact at last. Good. Now:
1. Now many of these missiles were created?
2. Who bought them?
3. Who had them in their arsenal at the time of the explosion?
4. Who had the ability to use them, i.e. experienced troops, in the 320 sq Km box where the missile, presumably because of its range, could have been fired from?




> angle of impact is a contentious issue because Russian missile maker Almaz Antey insists the aircraft cannot have been shot down from the area of Snizhne, where a Buk missile system was seen under separatist control on the day of the disaster.


One source, presumably because they designed the missiles, has commented, their comment was on the model of BUK missile and the shape of the metal fragments, sphers, cubes, bowties......., it would have carried. The Russians have produced their evidence and handed it over to the Dutch. The NATO countries has not produced any evidence or handed it over to the Dutch. One observer might wonder why not? 




> It is as if the entire civilised world is frightened to deal with the inescapable fact - this commercial airliner was attacked by Russian regular army personnel operating their SAM system on the border with the Ukraine.  Quite why is mystifying


Simple, for any unemotional person to understand, no facts have been produced pointing the finger, exclusively, at any one organisation just "opinions". The ravings of the monsters claiming "It was the Russians" now will eat humble pie, apologise to  the the LORD and pay compensation to the LORD for the costs involved by their illegal sanctions.  :Smile: 

The Dutch have also stressed that they have produced a report with technical/operational conclusions. They have also stated that they have no remit to apportion blame. *Which they haven't*.

----------


## OhOh

I've read the document now.

A very professional report on the issues which caused the crash in my opinion. Some observations:

1. The Ukrainians were aware of planes being shot down above the notified announcement. As the report suggests their inability to raise the flight level was not good. Not that it would have made any difference as the identified air to surface missile, the BUK, had a much greater capability than that which commercial planes fly. The only way of protecting civil flights is to make the area a no fly zone, which the Ukrainians failed to do. Alternately the airlines decide themselves to risk flying over a war zone and consequently accept blame of an accidents.

2. The Ukrainians "reported" a number of their planes being shot down at high altitudes only days before the accident, did anyone else confirm these incidents. The closeness of the "reported incidents" to the accident  could suggest a possible plan to woo in possible attacks from the freedom fighters or cover a Ukrainian false flag.

3. The flight plan indicated a planned height adjustment just prior entering the war zone, halfway across Ukraine. The Ukrainian ATC suggested a flight level change to the Malaysian plan but they declined the offer. Six minutes later the Malaysian pilot requested the flight level change but was refused by Ukrainian ATC. The flight level suggested by both would have put the plane on an even flight level which is normally used by westward bound planes, good practice?

4. The Malaysian plane did diverge from the planned route slightly, to the north, to miss bad weather. This was agreed with the Ukrainian ATC. Once past the bad weather the plane was advised to return to the flight path to the next way point. This new heading, was led the pilot to change to a more southerly heading. The Ukrainian ATC then informed the Malaysian aircraft "to expect" a routing directly to the way point after the one they were currently aiming for. This way point was markedly to the south of the current way point. This may be why as the Malaysian plane was flying on a more southerly heading over the target area. If the "direction of the line of flight" indicated on one of their maps is correct. Maybe the pilot who knew he was going to be asked to fly in the more southerly route continued on his southerly route rather than correcting his flight path westwards to this current way point. Or maybe the Ukrainian ATC wanted the plane over a certain piece of Ukrainian territory.

4. The Russian Federation had different data storage rules. These were published by their own organisation and presumably known by the world body. This led, allegedly by the Russians, to the raw data being "not available". The non availability of the raw data raised some concern to the authenticity of the video recordings which Russia sent to the Dutch. Who has access to the Russian rules, everybody it's a publicly available document. Did the Russians believe they had made a relaxation request? Who has access to the, world body for airline movements, database of request by states, to "relax" data storage rules? The world, are they only available to the member states requesting a relaxation or any "interested party", either formally or  with hacking capabilities? 

5. The Ukrainian air space is divided into a number of areas. These areas are controlled by different ATC "groups" although they appear to all answer to the same ATC name. The last Ukrainian ATC "telephoned" the Russian ATC to presumably make them aware that a plane was on it's way to them. Why did he telephone? All other forms of contact to the flight are required to be stored by the world body. Radar, voice, etc, all clearly defined in the regulations. Was that standard practice or "unusual"?

6. A section of the report indicates a request for any Airborne radar data form any countries AEWS. NATO replied they had no data, as the area was outside the range of their AWEWs. A war zone in Europe outside it's range, dubious! When requested a second time NATO replied "We have checked our data and confirm we have no data". NATO checked it's self. One would think the Dutch would highlight this and suggest a more formal "checking of data" other than a self check. No mention of any AWES data from the Russian, again a war right next door and no coverage, dubious again.

7. Lots of checking of the facts regarding flight plans, airplane maintenance records, air crew licenses and health. Surprisingly no checking of the ATC controllers competence or licenses, nor of who was present in the Ukrainian and Russian ATC centres that night. A large space which could be filled with "dubious" characters. Surprising omission in my opinion.

The report also indicates a separate investigation being pursued to establish the link between a BUK missile and the person behind the BUK missile being fired. Maybe some of my comments might be answered in that "investigation  :Smile: 

A few more months then to await who the finger of blame is pointed at.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> I've read the document now.
> 
> A very professional report on the issues which caused the crash in my opinion. Some observations:
> 
> 1. The Ukrainians were aware of planes being shot down above the notified announcement. As the report suggests their inability to raise the flight level was not good. Not that it would have made any difference as the identified air to surface missile, the BUK, had a much greater capability than that which commercial planes fly. The only way of protecting civil flights is to make the area a no fly zone, which the Ukrainians failed to do. Alternately the airlines decide themselves to risk flying over a war zone and consequently accept blame of an accidents.


I blame the airlines. Putting profit before safety. 




> 2. The Ukrainians "reported" a number of their planes being shot down at high altitudes only days before the accident, did anyone else confirm these incidents. The closeness of the "reported incidents" to the accident  could suggest a possible plan to woo in possible attacks from the freedom fighters or cover a Ukrainian false flag.


Or more likely it suggests a pattern of planned behaviour.

_Ukraine should have closed its airspace to commercial traffic, while Malaysia Airlines and third party bodies such as the International Civil Aviation Organization did not adequately consider the risks involved in flying over an area of conflict. The report found that about 16 military planes and helicopters had been shot down in eastern Ukraine in the weeks before flight MH17 was downed. On the day of the crash, 160 flights flew over the area in question. The report concludes that the current system for safeguarding civil aviation is insufficient to adequately assess the risks associated with flying over conflict areas._




> 3. The flight plan indicated a planned height adjustment just prior entering the war zone, halfway across Ukraine. The Ukrainian ATC suggested a flight level change to the Malaysian plan but they declined the offer. Six minutes later the Malaysian pilot requested the flight level change but was refused by Ukrainian ATC. The flight level suggested by both would have put the plane on an even flight level which is normally used by westward bound planes, good practice?


To quote Hillary Clinton, at this stage, what difference does it make?  Whether they didn't realise that 30,000feet+ would almost certainly be commercial traffic or they decided without checking that it was a Ukrainian plane sneaking through commercial lanes to avoid detection is frankly irrelevant.





> 4. The Malaysian plane did diverge from the planned route slightly, to the north, to miss bad weather. This was agreed with the Ukrainian ATC. Once past the bad weather the plane was advised to return to the flight path to the next way point. This new heading, was led the pilot to change to a more southerly heading. The Ukrainian ATC then informed the Malaysian aircraft "to expect" a routing directly to the way point after the one they were currently aiming for. This way point was markedly to the south of the current way point. This may be why as the Malaysian plane was flying on a more southerly heading over the target area. If the "direction of the line of flight" indicated on one of their maps is correct. Maybe the pilot who knew he was going to be asked to fly in the more southerly route continued on his southerly route rather than correcting his flight path westwards to this current way point. Or maybe the Ukrainian ATC wanted the plane over a certain piece of Ukrainian territory.


Dnipro ATC directed the pilots to head for waypoint RND which is in Russian territory. I don't think there is anything abnormal about that.

The statement to expect a routing to waypoint TIKNA would also have been logical, but they never responded to it anyway, presumably because they were busy falling out of the sky.




> 4. The Russian Federation had different data storage rules. These were published by their own organisation and presumably known by the world body. This led, allegedly by the Russians, to the raw data being "not available". The non availability of the raw data raised some concern to the authenticity of the video recordings which Russia sent to the Dutch. Who has access to the Russian rules, everybody it's a publicly available document. Did the Russians believe they had made a relaxation request? Who has access to the, world body for airline movements, database of request by states, to "relax" data storage rules? The world, are they only available to the member states requesting a relaxation or any "interested party", either formally or  with hacking capabilities?


Very convenient, eh?




> 5. The Ukrainian air space is divided into a number of areas. These areas are controlled by different ATC "groups" although they appear to all answer to the same ATC name. The last Ukrainian ATC "telephoned" the Russian ATC to presumably make them aware that a plane was on it's way to them. Why did he telephone? All other forms of contact to the flight are required to be stored by the world body. Radar, voice, etc, all clearly defined in the regulations. Was that standard practice or "unusual"?


I can't find that bit in the report. What page is it on?




> 6. A section of the report indicates a request for any Airborne radar data form any countries AEWS. NATO replied they had no data, as the area was outside the range of their AWEWs. A war zone in Europe outside it's range, dubious! When requested a second time NATO replied "We have checked our data and confirm we have no data". NATO checked it's self. One would think the Dutch would highlight this and suggest a more formal "checking of data" other than a self check. No mention of any AWES data from the Russian, again a war right next door and no coverage, dubious again.


I don't think NATO would want Russia to know the capabilities of their radar, so that doesn't surprise me.

And since Ukraine is not a NATO member, I don't see how they'd have radar installed even in the West of the country. That would require an implementing agreement which has to be signed with a NATO member, so not possible.

I'm pretty sure both NATO and the US have other eyes on (Russia probably has too), but they are not going to reveal their surveillance capabilities to each other.




> 7. Lots of checking of the facts regarding flight plans, airplane maintenance records, air crew licenses and health. Surprisingly no checking of the ATC controllers competence or licenses, nor of who was present in the Ukrainian and Russian ATC centres that night. A large space which could be filled with "dubious" characters. Surprising omission in my opinion.


I don't think it's remotely relevant. There was nothing unusual about this flight path, nor nothing unusual about the routing conversations or the waypoints being used.




> The report also indicates a separate investigation being pursued to establish the link between a BUK missile and the person behind the BUK missile being fired. Maybe some of my comments might be answered in that "investigation 
> 
> A few more months then to await who the finger of blame is pointed at.


Yes, that would be the criminal investigation.

Considering Russia's insistence that Ukraine did it, do you not find it strange that they were the only country to veto this being investigated by an International Criminal Tribunal?




> Russia has vetoed proposals for an international criminal tribunal into the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17.
> 
> It was the only nation to vote against the measure, using its veto power as a permanent member of UN Security Council to prevent the draft resolution from passing.


It's pretty obvious why they would do that. I know who my finger of blame is pointed at, and they should just 'fess up to the error, pay the compensation and consign this to the history books.

Look at KAL007. How many people have even heard of it, let alone remember it?

----------


## BobR

> Look at KAL007. How many people have even heard of it, let alone remember it?


When the Challenger space shuttle was above monitoring the Soviet response to an "accidental" intrusion?  Yep another story that makes me proud to be American, ranks right with there with the recent hospital/Doctors Without Borders bombing.   At least the shuttle blowing up a few years later added some ironic justice to the story.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> Look at KAL007. How many people have even heard of it, let alone remember it?
> 
> 
> When the Challenger space shuttle was above monitoring the Soviet response to an "accidental" intrusion?  Yep another story that makes me proud to be American, ranks right with there with the recent hospital/Doctors Without Borders bombing.   At least the shuttle blowing up a few years later added some ironic justice to the story.


The what?

----------


## OhOh

> I can't find that bit in the report. What page is it on?


Section 2.9.6





> I don't think it's remotely relevant. There was nothing unusual about this flight path, nor nothing unusual about the routing conversations or the waypoints being used.


It is not relevant that the ATC voice was from an unspecified/possibly unanswerable now - due to an unfortunate accident/a possibly "agent" of the Ukrainian state. There are many scenarios harry. As they delved deeply into the airplane and airplane crew backgrounds there are only two other proven contacts with the plane. The Ukrainian ATCs and the Russian ATC. Is it to difficult to elicit there "memories" of the night.

As the investigators have only released a "summary" which allegedly is amplified in Appendix G, which has not been released, one could envisage many possibilities. 




> do you not find it strange that they were the only country to veto this being investigated by an International Criminal Tribunal?


Sorry I have been told not to repeat conversations with the LORD.  So it's no comment, as I am a person who is unauthorised to speak offically.  :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> I can't find that bit in the report. What page is it on?
> 
> 
> Section 2.9.6
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But there is nothing unusual about them talking to the ATCs of the countries they are traversing.

There are many possibly scenarios, voices in their heads, but Occam's Razor is rarely wrong.

A Russian Buk shot this plane down.

Russia should just 'fess up and pay the money.

KAL007 all over again, they're lying through their teeth as usual.

----------


## OhOh

> But there is nothing unusual about them talking to the ATCs of the countries they are traversing.


The method of "talking" to the Russian ATC was outside the regulated area. Hence no records were required to be "stored". Whether this is commonplace or not the regs need to be changed to include all forms of ATC comms.




> There are many possibly scenarios, voices in their heads, but Occam's Razor is rarely wrong.  A Russian Buk shot this plane down.


Not sure I understand the first sentence.

A Russian designed missile? A Russian manufactured missile? A Russian deployed missile? The first one seems to be true, the second and third are still not proven as facts. Your Honour.  :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> But there is nothing unusual about them talking to the ATCs of the countries they are traversing.
> 
> 
> The method of "talking" to the Russian ATC was outside the regulated area. Hence no records were required to be "stored". Whether this is commonplace or not the regs need to be changed to include all forms of ATC comms.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The preponderance of evidence supporting the  scenario that the Russians shot it down by mistake and then hightailed it out of Ukraine with the offending missile system, along with their efforts to stymie the investigation and their previous track record in covering up their shooting down of a commercial aircraft leads this juror to the only conclusion:

Guilty M'lud!

 :Smile:

----------


## Hans Mann

Source: AFP

----------


## Hans Mann

Dutch prosecutors said they would "seriously study" claims by citizen journalists to have identified Russian soldiers implicated in the crash of flight MH17, shot down over eastern Ukraine in July 2014.

The claims are made by a British-based group of "citizen investigative journalists" called Bellingcat, which specialises in trawling through data on social media and other open sources.

"We received the report just after Christmas," Wim de Bruin, a spokesman for the Dutch prosecutor's office, told AFP.

"We will seriously study it and determine whether it can be used for the criminal inquiry," de Bruin said.

Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was downed over war-torn eastern Ukraine on July 17 2014 by a BUK surface-to-air missile, killing all 298 onboard, air crash investigators said last October.

Western nations and Ukraine say the missile was fired from pro-Russian separatist-held territory, but Moscow denies the claim, pointing the finger instead at the Ukrainian military.

The Netherlands have launched a criminal probe into those responsible for the shooting, but many experts doubt whether it will succeed.

In 2014, Bellingcat reported that a BUK mobile launcher, spotted on July 17 in an area controlled by pro-Russian rebels, came from a military convoy from Russia's 53rd anti-aircraft brigade -- a unit based in Kursk but sent on manoeuvres near the Ukrainian border.

The launcher was later filmed again, but at least one of its missiles was missing.

In an interview with the Dutch TV channel NOS on Sunday, Bellingcat founder Eliot Higgins said his organisation had now identified 20 soldiers in this brigade.

This is "probably" the group that either knows who fired or has that individual among its number, Higgins said.

The sources for this include photos posted on the Internet and army data about personnel deployment that was available online, NOS said.

It added that a redacted version of the report should be published "shortly."

De Bruin said Dutch prosecutors had "already been in contact" with Bellingcat in the past.

Dutch investigators to study citizen journalism probe into MH17

----------


## OhOh

The report may make interesting reading or be full of holes, lets await yet another "investigation". 

The first one showed no proof of Russian involvement, the second may show proof of Russian involvement but for sure numbers 3, 4 and 5 will definitely show proof of Russian involvement.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

The sheeple already have swallow the bait, they have been reeled in, processed and are now in cold storage. What will a few more "investigations" prove to them?

----------


## harrybarracuda

Results:

The plane was not shot down by another plane.

And then Sky decided to cut the feed because they are quoting the Russians speaking verbatim and they said "Fuck" a lot.

What a bunch of fucking kids!

Anyway, the results of the investigation are live. Maybe you can find it on another station.

On RT on Youtube.

Confirmed that the missile parts came from a 9M38 Buk missile.

----------


## Norton

Watching on BBC World.

----------


## Norton

Or was. Now they've switched to report on Perez death.

----------


## Norton

CNN has it live.

----------


## Pragmatic

BBC news says the Buk came from Russia but doesn't say who fired it.   :Confused: 




> *MH17 missile 'came from Russia'*
> 
> International  prosecutors investigating the downing of flight MH17 over eastern  Ukraine in 2014 say the Buk missile that hit the plane was transported  from Russia. 
> All 298 people on board the Boeing 777 died when it broke apart in midair flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.
> Robby  Oehler, whose niece was killed in the crash, told the BBC that  prosecutors told relatives they will investigate about 100 people over  the incident.
> "They told us how the Buk was transported [and] how  they came to that evidence from phone taps, photo, film material,  video," he said.
> He said prosecutors said the missile was fired from territory controlled by pro-Russian rebels. 
> The  Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team (JIT) consists of prosecutors from  the Netherlands, Australia, Belgium, Malaysia and Ukraine.
> An  inquiry by the Dutch Safety Board last year found that a Russian-made  Buk missile hit the plane but did not say where it was fired from.
> The JIT investigation's findings are meant to prepare the ground for a criminal trial.

----------


## Norton

Dutch guy doing the talking. Plenty of evidence. Plane shot down by SA11 launched from territory controlled by Russian backed rebels. Launcher and missile delivered to the site from Russian Federation and returned after fired.

----------


## harrybarracuda

"In no doubt" that MH17 was shot down by a Buk launcher brought in from Russia and returned to Russia one missile short.

Wow, they have identified 100 people who were involved in either the transport, escort or use of the missile. They are not automatically suspects.

I'm sure Vlad will happily send them to Holland to give evidence.



C U N T.

----------


## Seekingasylum

> I think it evident, even to the most pusillanimous of febrile governments anywhere in the world, that Russia is entirely responsible for this murderous attack.
> 
> The eastern Ukraine insurrection by indigenous Russians has been orchestrated, funded and supplied by Putin. Their so-called militias which invaded the Crimea were Russian forces. The weaponry supplied to the " secessionists " is Russian. Russia has now supplied their proxy forces in eastern Ukraine with a military anti- aircraft missile capability which could only be operated by trained personnel since such hardware is entirely directed by complex guidance systems. Someone has screwed up badly but that is irrelevant. The eastern Ukraine is effectively Russian and they must now pay.
> 
> The Malaysian government will be aware of this since western intelligence has now established there is no doubt it was the Russians who were responsible - Putin's attempts to blame Ukraine verges upon the cynical Communist deceit of the 1960s and has been roundly condemned for the puerile rubbish it is.
> 
> One hopes the Malaysians will now act decisively and with it drag along their ASEAN colleagues. Razak must withdraw his ambassador from Moscow immediately and boot the Russkies out of Malaysia, deny any Russian entry to his country, ban all trade with them and prevail upon ASEAN to act similarly. 
> 
> The EU must also introduce immediate sanctions. The US, finally after the absurd nonsense about the " axis of evil " have re-awakened to the real threat that is Russia, is already cranking the pressure up. Indeed, they should now advise the Cubans that the day the Russians open their spy base there will be the day Cuba goes back to the Stone Age.
> ...


I told them what happened two years ago. Honestly, one wonders just what these folk have been doing.

----------


## bsnub

OhDOH will be along soon to tell us that it is all a fabrication.  :Smile:

----------


## Pragmatic

> I shall impose my own sanctions upon the swine in Pattaya where I shall refuse to speak to them or go to their restaurants. I may even say that Putin is an irredeemably deficient, uncouth latent deviant with close set eyes. That'll tell the buggers.


My hero. A true activist. The Russians can't say they weren't warned.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Lostandfound

Russia's intervention in Syria to uphold the Assad regime and prevent it becoming another Iraq or Libya is seriously pissing off the US and its poodles. 

A fucked up world where Putin washes whiter than the cnuts in Washington.

----------


## BobR

Someone's milking this for all the propaganda value they can get out of it.  Regardless of who made the missile or who fired it, the decision to fire was done on a battlefeld by a low ranking officer........a battlefield the plane had no business flying over.

----------


## Norton

> a battlefield the plane had no business flying over


Agree. Negligence in the first degree.




> the decision to fire was done on a battlefeld by a low ranking officer


Jury is still out. The investigation is a criminal investigation to determine who done it and who ordered it done. How high up in the chain of command is yet to be determined. Evidence the launcher came from and returned to Russia certainly indicates the order to fire or rules of engagement came from far above the battery commander, a low ranking officer. 

Crash investigations normally are focused on the cause of a crash and what measures need be taken to prevent another. In this case it has been known since shortly after the crash it was shot down by a Russian made missile over a war zone. 

Regardless, whoever is charged as a result of this investigation, they won't be brought to trial. All an expensive exercise in futility.

----------


## harrybarracuda

^^^ Or to be more accurate, Russia's intervention in Syria to keep in power the reviled Assad regime and prevent it becoming another Tunisia has caused more than 100,000 deaths and created a shitstorm.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Someone's milking this for all the propaganda value they can get out of it.  Regardless of who made the missile or who fired it, the decision to fire was done on a battlefeld by a low ranking officer........a battlefield the plane had no business flying over.


Then it shouldn't have been such a big deal to admit the error and pay compensation then, should it?

----------


## HermantheGerman

> Someone's milking this for all the propaganda value they can get out of it.  Regardless of who made the missile or who fired it, the decision to fire was done on a battlefeld by a low ranking officer........a battlefield the plane had no business flying over.


Those Russiaholics are real smart people. They still can't build a decent car for their people. But every low ranking officer knows how to get and operate a Buk system an shoot down a plane.

Boy, do we have i..... here on this forum  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## harrybarracuda

> A Dutch-led criminal investigation into the Malaysian jet crash, is "biased and politically motivated", according to Russian officials.


Yeah right, of course it is you useless wankers.

----------


## BobR

> Originally Posted by BobR
> 
> 
> Someone's milking this for all the propaganda value they can get out of it.  Regardless of who made the missile or who fired it, the decision to fire was done on a battlefeld by a low ranking officer........a battlefield the plane had no business flying over.
> 
> 
> Those Russiaholics are real smart people. They still can't build a decent car for their people. But every low ranking officer knows how to get and operate a Buk system an shoot down a plane.
> 
> Boy, do we have i..... here on this forum


Yea, every time a missile is launched a General cones to personally push the launch button.  You're right we do have some idiots.

----------


## HermantheGerman

> Originally Posted by HermantheGerman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by BobR
> ...


Yeah right, every low ranking soldier can give permission to drive & fire a Buk missile system arround town. Its as easy as pushing an idiot in a wheelchair  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## OhOh

Evening All,

Good to see that the "evidence" is not being manipulated to form the conclusion, eh? 

It's a good job the Russian designed missile was never sold to or utilised by any other country. 

Sort of limits the possibilities.  :Smile: 

I wonder who could create a few false phone calls over a two or three year period. 

I wonder who could create a a few photo shopped images over a two or three year period.

Only one person gains anything from this, it certainly isn't a certain political leader living in eastern Europe.




> Russia's intervention in Syria to uphold the Assad regime and prevent it becoming another Iraq or Libya is seriously pissing off the US and its poodles.  A fucked up world where Putin washes whiter than the cnuts in Washington.


One of the LORD'S disciples. It's a difficult road but carry the flag for freedom or bend over for a g or two. Some here are beyond redemption  A sign will come from the skies one clear morning and all will be revealed.

----------


## OhOh

> prevent it becoming another Tunisia has caused more than 100,000 deaths and created a shitstorm.


Maybe they should have left it to the American female who suggested deaths of a large number Iraqi babies/children were worth it . Whatever the "it" was , she is and was very wrong.




> OhDOH will be along soon to tell us that it is all a fabrication


Do you have a link to the published report, one can never be too happy with "some" news sites. Or "reporters" who post fairy tales.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Do you have a link to the published report, one can never be too happy with "some" news sites. Or "reporters" who post fairy tales.


Actually I watched the press conference live. All you've probably done is gone to RT and Pravda so you can find out what Putin wants you to say.

Of course the easy solution is for Putin to allow the 100 or so people of interest to be questioned by the Investigating team.

But the c u n t won't do that, because he knows what he did.

----------


## birding

Came across this today :




> While on the subject, we learned today from the Dutch MH17 investigators that Russia was directly involved in the passenger jet's downing since a Buk missile launcher had just arrived from Russia in Ukraine's pro-Russia East. How did the rebels know MH17 would be overhead the next day?
> 
> 	What's ignored by the Dutch is evidence from M Bociurkiw, a Canadian-Ukrainian who, with his team, were the first OSEC investigators to arrive at the crash site. Video presented shows the still smouldering wreckage and a single large hole exactly where the pilot sits that appears to have been made a single air-to-air missile. That area is pockmarked with holes that look like damage from 30mm machine-gunfire. The metal is bent in and out, as if jet fighters were on either side firing. There are photos at GlobalResearch.ca.
> 
> 	In a BBC video, eyewitnesses all claimed that one jet fighter jet was tucked under the Malaysian airliner and another just behind it when they heard explosions. The BBC deleted the video but it can be viewed at http://slavyangrad.org.


What the Western press ignores on Syria - The Nation

----------


## Cujo

http://slavyangrad.org.

Wow, now THAT'S an interesting site.
Just goes to show we don't know what the fuck is going on really.
(well most of us)

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Came across this today :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				While on the subject, we learned today from the Dutch MH17 investigators that Russia was directly involved in the passenger jet's downing since a Buk missile launcher had just arrived from Russia in Ukraine's pro-Russia East. How did the rebels know MH17 would be overhead the next day?
> 
> ...


I take you didn't watch the extremely lengthy press conference where they outlined every detail of the investigation.

Otherwise you wouldn't post utter bollocks like this.

----------


## birding

> Originally Posted by birding
> 
> 
> Came across this today :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Investigations all have a start point and I wonder if the start point in this investigation was that it was the doing of Russia and the Dutch set out to prove just that. Right from immediately after the incident the western press blamed the Russians and continued to blame them.

When someone is out to prove something they may just "accidentally" miss or leave out something that could question their conclusion.

An example of being out to prove a start point is the Khao Tao murder where the investigation and trial  started with the premise that the two Burmese boys were guilty.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by birding
> ...


Still bullshitting. You can't help yourself, can you?

----------


## OhOh

Let me know when the report is published and a link to it so that I might be educated.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Let me know when the report is published and a link to it so that I might be educated.


It's already been published.

Probably not on your whackjob websites though.

Maybe you should try Googling it.

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by OhOh
> 
> 
> Let me know when the report is published and a link to it so that I might be educated.
> 
> 
> It's already been published.
> 
> Probably not on your whackjob websites though.
> ...


You forgot the link for him.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by OhOh
> ...


Fuck him, if he wants it he'll find it.

He'll ignore it all anyway, he's a Putin whore.

----------


## OhOh

> It's already been published.





> You forgot the link for him.





> Fuck him, if he wants it he'll find it.


Such helpful comments.

I have found this published 28th September 2016:

https://www.om.nl/onderwerpen/mh17-c...ght-mh17-shot/

_"Today, the interim results of the criminal investigation which included  the findings regarding the weapon and launch location were presented.  The investigation into those responsible for the crash will take more  time."

_Are there others........ I was going to ask but what's the point. All the evidence has not been investigated, an interim report (one that wouldn't stand up in any court) has been published. More hard work required  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  to actually produce an answer, but maybe in the week or so from when it was published all has become crystal clear.

I will read this "interim report" and see if there is any actual evidence or just biased supposition. Unless of course either of you have a link to the full, completed, stand up in court M'lud, no questions left unturned, we stand to every accusation under punishment of castration report.

Or is it only available to those who already have taken the oath?  :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda



----------


## OhOh

^As the title of your video suggests and as I have found by reading the web page the "First Results" are not results but supposition based on untested "witnesses" statements, untested phone communications and as such confirm a word of proof.

I'm sure the presentation by video to all the world will be seen in the future as the false dawn it is.

I am, as I have said many times, open to a complete 180 if and when the evidence is delivered that supports either alleged event. 

Until then.

----------


## bsnub

> I am, as I have said many times, open to a complete 180 if and when the evidence is delivered that supports either alleged event.


You are full of shit there has already been a mountain of evidence posted on this thread. There is video of the local donbass commander basically admitting to giving the order to shoot down the plane. I posted it up long ago. You just don't care because it does not fit your narrative so it can't be true. I have said it before you have so much in common with Trump supporters.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by OhOh
> 
> I am, as I have said many times, open to a complete 180 if and when the evidence is delivered that supports either alleged event.
> 
> 
> You are full of shit there has already been a mountain of evidence posted on this thread. There is video of the local donbass commander basically admitting to giving the order to shoot down the plane. I posted it up long ago. You just don't care because it does not fit your narrative so it can't be true. I have said it before you have so much in common with Trump supporters.


Thick as fuck and suffering from Dunning Kruger?

Agreed.

Of course when Vlad happily sends the 100 witnesses to testify it will all be cleared up.

 :rofl:

----------


## OhOh

> there has already been a mountain of evidence posted on this thread


Evidence, suitable for a court to pass judgement on? I suggest there would be no reason for the current/multi year investigation if it was that clear cut. But carry on. 

Simpler times.

"I'm a Believer"








> Of course when Vlad happily sends the 100 witnesses to testify it will all be cleared up.


One presumes that the majority of the "witnesses" and recoded telephone conversations were of Ukrainians. 

Otherwise somebody has been hacking the Russian military comms and leaving incriminating evidence behind. You know like the "Russian" hackers alleged to have infiltrated some closet servers in Ameristan.  :Smile: 

Oh Oh, it's one of those Boomerang events.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> One presumes that the majority of the "witnesses" and recoded telephone conversations were of Ukrainians. 
> 
> Otherwise somebody has been hacking the Russian military comms and leaving incriminating evidence behind. You know like the "Russian" hackers alleged to have infiltrated some closet servers in Ameristan. 
> 
> Oh Oh, it's one of those Boomerang events.


Maybe one shouldn't presume but should actually watch the fucking video rather than reading whackjobconspiracytheories.com

----------


## OhOh

Presumably the wackajobcriminalinvestigation.com is a more trustworthy site?

Maybe you should read the published "report", English and Dutch, pure supposition no facts and no conclusion supported by facts.

Ah, a video, which took "somebody" many hours/weeks/months/years of hard work to concoct. 

Is that your proof?

 :rofl:

----------


## HermantheGerman

^

Let me bring back some good ole USSR memories for you. 

The practice of focusing on disasters elsewhere when one occurs in the  Soviet Union is so common that after watching a report on Soviet  television about a catastrophe abroad, Russians often call Western  friends to find out whether something has happened in the Soviet Union.

The good ole days have returned. You must be proud and happy.

----------


## OhOh

But, but we have t'internet now, where all the "truth" can be explained away and falsehoods accepted.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Depending of course if harry agrees.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> But, but we have t'internet now, where all the "truth" can be explained away and falsehoods accepted. 
> 
> Depending of course if harry agrees.


Whatever obfuscation you attempt means nothing.

The fact is that Putin has a history of keeping witnesses/perpetrators out of the reach of the law.

And he'll do no different here, because he's a murderous fucking crook.

----------


## OhOh

> The fact is that Putin has a history of keeping witnesses/perpetrators out of the reach of the law.  And he'll do no different here, because he's a murderous fucking crook.


If he was the only world leader to do such a thing harry it might be relevant. As he's not, it's irrelevant to try and belittle one and not all the others.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> The fact is that Putin has a history of keeping witnesses/perpetrators out of the reach of the law.  And he'll do no different here, because he's a murderous fucking crook.
> 
> 
> If he was the only world leader to do such a thing harry it might be relevant. As he's not, it's irrelevant to try and belittle one and not all the others.


Well done, you're absolutely right. He belongs in the company of Mugabe and Kim Jong-il.

----------


## Klondyke

*Ex-Ukranian air force fighter pilot blamed by Moscow for shooting down flight MH17 is found dead from a gunshot wound at his home
*
Moscow blamed Captain Vladislav Voloshin for shooting down MH17 in July 2014
But the 29-year-old pilot always insisted he was the victim of a Russian smear
He was found dead from a gunshot wound at his home in Mykolayiv, Ukraine
298 people were killed when Boeing 777 was blasted out of the sky over Ukraine
Voloshin was a Su-25 pilot in Ukrainian Air Force when the aircraft was downed


Read more: Pilot blamed by Moscow for shooting down Flight MH17 is found dead | Daily Mail Online

----------


## harrybarracuda

Now cough up some compensation you cowardly, murdering Russian scum.




> The surface-to-air missile that shot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, a Boeing 777, belonged to the Russian armed forces,  the Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team (JIT) said May 24.
> 
> 
> In an update to its long-running investigation into the shooting down of the 777-200ER over Eastern Ukraine in July 2014, the JIT said that the Buk (SA-11 ‘Gadfly’) missile transporter erector launcher and radar (TELAR) vehicle which fired the missile belonged to the 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile brigade, based at Kursk.
> 
> The JIT was able to track the TELAR vehicle’s route from Kursk to a city near the Ukrainian borders before the shoot-down, as well as its return back across the border post-engagement, using imagery and video posted online.
> 
> The JIT said that several key characteristics of the Buk used in the shoot-down were unique based on imagery of numerous different Buk TELARs it had analyzed.
> 
> ...

----------


## Klondyke

^Highly likely...

----------


## OhOh

Only a "probably" from me. I'll wait until "Julia" is interviewed by Reuters. Doesn't Hezbollah have some BUKS from Iran? Or even Yemeni terrorists?

So many "probables" and not enough fairy tales.

----------


## OhOh

A fact filled response, of a differing viewpoint.

*Were Not Ready Yet: What MH17 Investigation Wont Discuss*

Military & Intelligence00:56 25.05.2018



_"The joint  investigation team (JIT) that is working on the mystery of downed flight  MH17, a Boeing passenger jet, has accused the Russian military of being  behind the catastrophe. However, the team once again has avoided the  most sensitive questions regarding the investigation.

_

_We know, but we won't tell

__"The investigation team examined all  images available and determined that the Buk' unit has a number or  unique features," Wilbert Paulissen, head of the Dutch Police's National  Crime Squad, said Thursday.
_
_"It is determined that the system that shot down the Boeing  originated from the 53rd anti-aircraft missile brigade from Kursk  in the Russian Federation."

The investigation team said it compared dozens of images and came to the  conclusion that those "unique features" point towards a Buk missile  system owned by a Russian army brigade.
_
_However, they have never shared any of those pictures, nor elaborated what "unique features" they were talking about.
_
_The investigation also says it suspects some 100 people  were involved in the launch preparation, but have never published their  names.

__The investigation team head, the Netherlands' chief  prosecutor Fred Westerbeke, said he cannot say who is responsible  for this atrocity. Instead, he underscored that the investigation is  continuing.
_
_"We have a lot of proof and a lot of evidence, but we are not ready yet," said Westerbeke. "There is still a lot of work to do."
_
_The missile from the past
_
_Another area of extremely muddy waters has to do with the age and model of the missile alleged to have taken down the plane.
_
_One of the pieces of evidence the investigation team  invoked was the missile's serial number. According to the JIT, this  serial number says this missile "was made in Moscow in 1986."
_
_It should be noted here that 1986 was the last year  of production of the original 9М38, according to a 2015 interview  with the manufacturer, Almaz-Antey. The company said at the time that  the missile was taken out of service in Russia in 2011, replaced by a  newer M1 modification, the 9M38M1.
_
_The original 9M38 missile, however, is still being used in Ukraine, Georgia and Egypt.

Curiously enough, H-shaped submunitions typical of the newer 9M38M1  version of the missile were discovered near the crash area  but there  are no marks from H-shaped munitions on the plane's fuselage. According  to Almaz-Antey, which conducted a simulated experiment in October 2015,  the holes on MH17's fuselage were made by cube-shaped submunitions, a  dead giveaway for the old 9M38 missile.
_
_The company's simulated explosion experiment resulted  in different conclusions than the JIT investigation: it found that the  missile that shot down the plane was not a 9M38M1 and that the missile  was not fired from the town of Snezhnoye.
_
_According to Almaz-Antey, the JIT also twisted or ignored  of information presented by the the company during the investigation,  including the report on the test fire experiment  this, despite the  fact that technical documentation regarding the 9M38 and its 9M38M1  modification was declassified specifically for this investigation.

"We were ready to present both the  program and the method of the experiment, but were told thank you very  much,' and that was the end of it," Mikhail Malyshevsky, an adviser  to the company's head engineer, said in a 2015 interview.
_
_According to the JIT's version of the events, a Russian Buk  system was covertly transported to Ukrainian territory just before the  event. This was previously shown in a documentary published by the team.
_
_The film refers to a recording of a phone conversation. On  the tape, someone says that a Buk is needed to counteract enemy  aviation. The JIT has never said whose voice this is, nor has it  provided proof that the tape is genuine, nor has it explained how it  proves that the Buk was relocated across the Ukrainian border."
_

https://sputniknews.com/military/201...ation-strange/

----------


## harrybarracuda

Feeble Putin apologist posts more shit from Putin propaganda site.

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## harrybarracuda

*MH17: Russia 'liable' for downing airliner over Ukraine*


Australia and the Netherlands have formally accused Russia of being responsible for downing a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet in 2014.

All 298 people on board MH17, which was en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, died when it was shot down over rebel-held territory in Ukraine.


On Thursday, Dutch-led international investigators concluded that the missile belonged to a Russian brigade.

Russia has denied any involvement in the plane's destruction.

It says none of its weapons were used to bring down the plane.

The decision of both the Netherlands and Australia was announced in a statement from the Dutch cabinet.

"On the basis of the [joint international team's] conclusions, the Netherlands and Australia are now convinced that Russia is responsible for the deployment of the Buk installation that was used to down MH17," Dutch foreign minister Stef Blok said.

"The government is now taking the next step by formally holding Russia accountable."


The statement added, however, that holding a nation state responsible for a breach of international law would involve "a complex legal process", the statement said,

Australia and the Netherlands have asked Russia to enter talks as a first step, but held out the prospect of taking the case to an international court.
"We call on Russia to accept its responsibility and cooperate fully with the process to establish the truth and achieve justice for the victims of flight MH17 and their next of kin," Mr Blok said.

MH17: Russia 'liable' for downing airliner over Ukraine - BBC News

----------


## OhOh

My apologies for doubting your original source. If the BBC have endorsed the claim we can all accept it as fact

 :smiley laughing: 




> "On the basis of the [joint international team's] conclusions, the Netherlands and Australia are now convinced that Russia is responsible for the deployment of the Buk installation that was used to down MH17," Dutch foreign minister Stef Blok said.
> 
> "The government is now taking the next step by formally holding Russia accountable."
> 
> The statement added, however, that holding a nation state responsible for a breach of international law would involve "a complex legal process", the statement said,
> 
> Australia and the Netherlands have asked Russia to enter talks as a first step, but held out the prospect of taking the case to an international court.
> "We call on Russia to accept its responsibility and cooperate fully with the process to establish the truth and achieve justice for the victims of flight MH17 and their next of kin," Mr Blok said.


1. I note the absence of "probably"

2. Show us your evidence or shut up.

3. Which they would lose, so Russia admit blame and crawl back into your icy cage.

4. Why want to talk now, after all the facts have been decided by a selected investigation team? They have no case.

5. Which their evidence will be ridiculed and their case thrown out.

6. Russia admit blame and crawl back into your icy cage plus See 4.

Seems the BBC has eaten to many of those Pattaya pork pies again.



You may want to read this article, but as it contradicts your Dutch selective investigation and the UK government run BBC, "probably" not.


*Russian MoD: Missiles Shown By MH17 Investigators Were Decommissioned After 2011*



_According to the Russian Defense Ministry, it's analyzing videos provided by Dutch investigators on the MH17 downing.

__"The  Russian Defense Ministry is analyzing video materials presented on May  24 at a press conference of the Dutch Joint Investigation Team, which is  engaged in the investigation of the passenger Boeing's crash in the  Ukrainian skies in 2014," the ministry said.
_
_All missiles, whose engines were demonstrated by the Dutch team, were disposed of after 2011.
_
_"After 25 years of operation, all missiles  of the Buk systems are subject to decommissioning and disposal, and  further use of these products… poses a direct threat to the life  of servicemen. The maximum lifetime of the missile, the engine  from which was demonstrated by the Dutch commission last Thursday was  2011 (1986 + 25), after which all the missiles produced that year were  seized, decommissioned and sent for disposal," the ministry said.
_
_No new anti-aircraft missiles were supplied to Ukraine, which has  about 20 battalions of BUK missiles systems since 1991, the ministry  said, adding that a special number of the missile allegedly used to down  the aircraft shows that it was produced in the Soviet Union in 1986.
_
_The ministry further says that the Dutch commission has hushed  up information about where and when the engine of the Buk missile was  found, as well as about those who handed it over to the investigators.
_
_The ministry noted that the Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team (JIT)  used the remained casing of a Buk missile engine, which was showcased  during Thursday's press conference, as one of the proofs of the Russian  armed forces' alleged involvement in the tragedy.
_
_"However, the speakers preferred not to mention  when and where the engine was found, who handed this item to the  investigative commission," the ministry's statement read.
_
_The document stressed that the Dutch investigators could have glossed  over the source of origin of the missile engine because it could belong  to Ukraine's armed forces.
_
_"The only reason for the deliberate silencing  of the source of origin of the showcased rocket engine, produced  in 1986, by the Dutch investigative commission is that it probably  belongs to the Ukrainian armed forces," the statement read.
_
_Kremlin's Reaction on Accusations
_
_Russia categorically rejects accusations of involvement in the MH17  crash, Kremlin spokesman said, commenting on the statements issued  by the Dutch and the Australian embassies earlier on Friday, in which  the countries accused Russian of downing plane.
_
_"The investigation conducted in the Netherlands  by the investigative team did not include the Russian side, although  the Ukrainian side was represented. Of course, not being able to be a  full-fledged participant in the work of that investigation team, Russia  does not know to what extent it may trust the results of this work,"  Peskov said.
_
_On Thursday, head of the Dutch National Police's Central Crime Investigation department Wilbert Paulissen said that the missile was launched by the Buk TELAR belonging to the Russian Armed Forces.
_
_At the same time, Dutch Chief Prosecutor Fred Westerbeke stated that  the investigation team would not disclose the evidence allegedly  uncovered."

Back in 2016, the Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team already presented  the initial results of the criminal investigation into the crash,  claiming that the airliner was downed by a Buk surface-to-air missile  launcher which was delivered from the "territory of the Russian  Federation to Ukraine." 

_However, Russia's Almaz-Antey company, which developed the Buk  missile system, rejected the findings, saying that three simulations  showed that the missile was launched from the Zaroshchenske area, which was controlled by the Ukrainian army at the time of the downing.


MH17 was  en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, carrying 298 passengers, all  of whom — including the crew — were killed when the plane crashed  in Ukraine's region of Donetsk on July 17, 2014. Following the  catastrophe, Ukraine delegated the investigation, announced the same year, to the Dutch Safety Board (DSB).

https://sputniknews.com/europe/20180...mh17-ministry/

Alleged secret evidence and secret numbers on the missile, now after concluding Russia did it, they demand Russia to admit it and want to talk. 

Unfortunately as shown in the article there are many factual points which indicates Russia, probably, has a strongly defendable position. It also shows that the Dutch evidence is doubtful, but wish Russia to admit guilt, to save a costly, time consuming court case, which they may, possibly, lose. 

All wrapped up the super cuddly, *"the need to establish the truth and achieve justice for the victims of flight MH17 and their next of kin". 

*No mention of their 4 year investigation which has meant the bodies still cannot be buried because they are evidence, possibly. 

Also of note is the badly used English language. One suggests they need to employ people like 'Julia" to utilise the correct grammatical terms and useful English phrases, only a native English person would use. 

The Russians did use the word "probably" which suggests they are at last learning the western ways. :Smile: 


Fire away TD's BBC correspondent, 'arry, if you have any ammunition left and a target to aim at.

----------


## harrybarracuda

You do know the Russians make shit up right?

You do know Putin controls the Russian media right?

You do know you look like a gullible fool right?

And sorry to piss on your strawberries, but the BBC are simply reporting the same story everyone else is.

Unless you think Australia and Holland aren't doing anything.

Only your Russian puppet media are trying to convince fools that they are innocent.

----------


## Klondyke

The case is solved similarly as the Skripal's case (or vice versa): Russians have not been admitted to the investigation but the Ukraines with a veto vote. 
(Same procedure as in the UN SC by the sheriff in town)

----------


## Klondyke

Just speaking about it live on St. Petersburg economic forum with Putin, Macron, Abe, and others
https://www.rt.com/on-air/

----------


## OhOh

> You do know the Russians make shit up right?


Everybody lies 'arry. I cross my fingers behind my back, what about you?

The Russians have some valid points allegedly. Did the Dutch or Ozzies rebut them, not so far. Let innuendo rule OK. Pitiful.

If they were so confident they would take them to a court. If they have evidence, put it up or shut it up. When they show theirs, probably, THE LORD will show his.  :Smile: 




> You do know Putin controls the Russian media right?
> 
> You do know you look like a gullible fool right?
> 
> And sorry to piss on your strawberries, but the BBC are simply reporting the same story everyone else is.
> 
> Unless you think Australia and Holland aren't doing anything.
> 
> Only you Russian puppet media are trying to convince fools that they are innocent.


Possibilities:

1. Such strange behaviour, only his own countries? One wonders if he did before anyone else.

2. Am I bovvered with an internet warriors opinion of me? Next doors guard dog, yes, but he knows an alpha male when he sniffs one, there's no cocking of legs on my patch. But as an allegedly uneducated, gullible fool, an admitted drug addict and a probable deviant Casanova? Nah.

3. That doesn't make it any more truthful. 

4. It takes, as much work to write a good fairytale, as a well researched, thesis.

5. Nobody is innocent. Except possibly, those who still believe in Father Christmas. Let's just say I have not yet, been convinced that THE LORD, is as evil as some others. On this planet and those probably, up there, watching down on their creations.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> If they were so confident they would take them to a court.


You're fucking hopeless.

When are you actually going to read other peoples posts before you spout your brainless drone shite?




> "The government is now taking the next step by formally holding Russia accountable."
> 
> The statement added, however, that holding a nation state responsible for a breach of international law would involve "a complex legal process".

----------


## Klondyke

^Highly likely...

----------


## TizMe

Surely the airline is still responsible.

They tried to save a few ringgit in fuel costs by flying over a war zone, rather than around it.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Surely the airline is still responsible.
> 
> They tried to save a few ringgit in fuel costs by flying over a war zone, rather than around it.


There were no restrictions in place but an advisory had suggested airlines look at alternatives. If there was an American lawyer involved, I'd expect this to be tested in court.

----------


## OhOh

> however, that holding a nation state responsible for a breach of international law would involve "a complex legal process


I read the posts and observe the weasel words i.e. , we are not going down that route, but lets pander to the oiks. We prefer naming and shaming. with no proven in a court evidence, displayed. 

Did they name the court with jurisdiction, no. 

Did they announce the date of the trial, no. 

Did they describe the charges laid, no.

Did they ................

Similar, in fact, with the UK failed attempt in Salisbury. 

Connect the dots 'arry, rather than continuing to swallow the microdots.  :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> I read the posts and observe the weasel words i.e. , we are not going down that route, but lets pander to the oiks. We prefer naming and shaming. with no proven in a court evidence, displayed. 
> 
> Did they name the court with jurisdiction, no. 
> 
> Did they announce the date of the trial, no. 
> 
> Did they describe the charges laid, no.
> 
> Did they ................
> ...


They said they are formally accusing Russia and it involves a complex legal process.

Only you could try and fabricate some absurd scenario out of such simple English.

What a desperate little straw clutcher you are.

----------


## Klondyke

> Surely the airline is still responsible.
> 
> They tried to save a few ringgit in fuel costs by flying over a war zone, rather than around it.


This surely cannot be true. Flying thru the war zone? How many others did it that time?
And why the records are not available - and the operators either?

----------


## TuskegeeBen

Interestingly, with all the brilliant authoritarian probability analogies, re: who's to blame, no one has considered just how the tragedy could have been *prevented,* in the first instance.

Does anyone know the reasoning behind the *2004* decision to discontinue the Newark, NJ (USA)_Dubai_Kuala Lumpur route? Who's to blame doesn't matter. 298 people lost their their lives, 

mainly because the block-headed, arrogant high-so *MAS* executives, refused to "see" the clearly-stated hand-writing *emblem* on the wall. All previous forewarnings considered; the chief pilot's probable decision 

to save on fuel costs, coupled with his own "mentality"-based decision, to fly a heavy aircraft, across a currently known War_Zone, was arrogant, and totally asinine, to say the least; 
as per 

Three generations of the same family members lost their lives, as a result. Again, the "who" did it, is a moot-point, at this stage! 

The facts of the matter that Russians have a prior history of shooting-down commercial passenger planes. In 1983 a Korean Airlines - Flight 007, that was shot down by a *MIG*-21 launched air-to-air missile, when *not* 

crossing over an active war zone. Does anyone get *the clue*, re: MH-17, yet?  :Cool2: 

Conclusively, according to a Malaysian acquaintance of mine,......"*wisdom* dictated that fore-warned avoidance measures be taken, by MAS mgmt, a *looong* time before the MH17 tragedy ever happened". *Duh!*  :27:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> The Russians have a history of shooting-down commercial airliners, and not even in a war zone.


The seppos have done it too, but at least they had the decency to cough up $132 million by way of compensation.

If Putin had the balls to do that, he would go up in my esteem, but ultimately he is classless little thief and murderer.

----------


## Klondyke

> The seppos have done it too, but at least they had the decency to cough up $132 million by way of compensation.
> 
> If Putin had the balls to do that, he would go up in my esteem, but ultimately he is classless little thief and murderer.


apples and patatoes..

----------


## OhOh

> How many others did it that time?


If my memory serves me accurately, I believe Thai Airways were doing the same thing at the time.




> The facts of the matter that Russians have a prior history of shooting-down commercial passenger planes. In 1983 a Korean Airlines - Flight 007, that was shot down by a MIG-21 launched air-to-air missile, when not crossing over an active war zone


Some have suggested the plane was off course, due to somebodies orders, over a area considered by Russia as sensitive, with unusual cargo in it's underbelly hold. probably a conspiracy.  :Smile:

----------


## TuskegeeBen

> If my memory serves me accurately, I believe Thai Airways were doing the same thing at the time.
> 
> 
> 
> Some have suggested the plane was off course, due to somebodies orders, over a area considered by Russia as sensitive, with unusual cargo in it's underbelly hold. probably a conspiracy.


No surprise about *that,* on both counts. However, unless control of the aircraft is seized by some "remote" entity  :Cool2: , the *Pilot-In-Command* always has the first, last and final word of responsibility, 
*especially*, re: all *AIF-*mode/operations. No exceptions! ::chitown::

----------


## Seekingasylum

> I think it evident, even to the most pusillanimous of febrile governments anywhere in the world, that Russia is entirely responsible for this murderous attack.
> 
> The eastern Ukraine insurrection by indigenous Russians has been orchestrated, funded and supplied by Putin. Their so-called militias which invaded the Crimea were Russian forces. The weaponry supplied to the " secessionists " is Russian. Russia has now supplied their proxy forces in eastern Ukraine with a military anti- aircraft missile capability which could only be operated by trained personnel since such hardware is entirely directed by complex guidance systems. Someone has screwed up badly but that is irrelevant. The eastern Ukraine is effectively Russian and they must now pay.
> 
> The Malaysian government will be aware of this since western intelligence has now established there is no doubt it was the Russians who were responsible - Putin's attempts to blame Ukraine verges upon the cynical Communist deceit of the 1960s and has been roundly condemned for the puerile rubbish it is.
> 
> One hopes the Malaysians will now act decisively and with it drag along their ASEAN colleagues. Razak must withdraw his ambassador from Moscow immediately and boot the Russkies out of Malaysia, deny any Russian entry to his country, ban all trade with them and prevail upon ASEAN to act similarly. 
> 
> The EU must also introduce immediate sanctions. The US, finally after the absurd nonsense about the " axis of evil " have re-awakened to the real threat that is Russia, is already cranking the pressure up. Indeed, they should now advise the Cubans that the day the Russians open their spy base there will be the day Cuba goes back to the Stone Age.
> ...


So, four years later after fuck knows how many investigations, they end up with confirming what I said four fucking years ago. 

Russians are just Americans but with less credit cards they're that dumb.

----------


## OhOh

> they end up with confirming what


So what have the investigation team been spending their hours and somebody's money on. No evidence a court would accept? But you guess/prejudice has been confirmed. 

Either excellent ignorance or your pills need adjusting, which is it?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> So what have the investigation team been spending their hours and somebody's money on.


I'd try reading the investigation reports.

Then again reading before opening your trap is not something you're good at, is it?

----------


## TuskegeeBen

> So what have the investigation team been spending their hours and somebody's money on. No evidence a court would accept? But you guess/prejudice has been confirmed. 
> 
> Either excellent ignorance or your pills need adjusting, which is it?


Indeed, I was so completely *astonished* by contextual content of post # 799, that I could not even muster a *basic* berating reply, to the absurdity of it. Thanks *OhOh*.  :smilie_clap:  Cheers!

----------


## harrybarracuda

Nailed it.




> _Putin's attempts to blame Ukraine verges upon the cynical Communist deceit of the 1960s and has been roundly condemned for the puerile rubbish it is._

----------


## Klondyke

*No conclusive evidence Russia behind MH17 downing: Malaysia transport minist*er

KUALA LUMPUR: There is no conclusive evidence to confirm that Russia was responsible for the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, Malaysian transport minister Anthony Loke said on Wednesday (May 30).

Investigators probing the 2014 downing of flight MH17 said last Thursday for the first time that the missile which brought down the plane over eastern Ukraine originated from a Russian military brigade. All 298 people onboard died.

Speaking to Channel NewsAsia on Wednesday, Mr Loke said: "There is no conclusive evidence to point at Russia under the JIT (Joint Investigative Team) evidence."

Moscow has rejected JIT's accusation, saying no such weapon had ever crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border and that it was an attempt to "discredit Russia in the eyes of the international community".

"But who's responsible - you can't just pinpoint at Russia," said Mr Loke, when asked about the findings. 

"Of course we have to take into consideration diplomatic relations," he said, adding that "any further actions will be based on conclusive evidence".

Australia and the Netherlands, whose citizens were also onboard the plane, have informed Russia that they hold the country responsible under international law for its role in bringing down MH17.

On Tuesday, Russia rejected calls from the Dutch to accept responsibility at a UN Security Council meeting in Ukraine.


*FINAL MH370 REPORT OUT IN JULY*

Meanwhile, Mr Loke also told Channel NewsAsia that the final report on MH370, the Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 that disappeared in March 2014 with 239 people onboard, will be released in July. 

"What we are deciding right now is the final report of the investigation team, (which) will be released in July. This is what I've committed - we will give full disclosure without any hiding or editing of the contents," he said. 

Mr Loke also reiterated that the government will consider another search if new evidence resurfaces.

"If there's any credible lead or evidence, of course I'll bring it back to the Cabinet to reopen the search but as of now, the team has briefed me that they've done everything possible," he said.

"If there are any offers (like that from Ocean Infinity), they can come to us and we can make a decision later."

Read more at https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news...aysia-10290266

----------


## sabang

Why is this recent flurry of nonsense considered 'News'? Yes, MH17 was downed by a Russian manufactured Buk missile. We have known that for years. Buk's are carried by the Russian & Ukrainian defence forces, and the Ukrainian 'rebels'. The question is, who fired it? The second question is, was it a deliberate strike (seems unlikely) or a case of mistaken identity?

So, Yawwwn.

----------


## TizMe

> This surely cannot be true. Flying thru the war zone? How many others did it that time?
> And why the records are not available - and the operators either?


There were other flights at that time in this particular airspace, but notably some airlines were already avoiding the area.
I know that both BA & Qantas were already diverting their flights.

----------


## TizMe

FlightRadar24 just before MH17 went down

----------


## TizMe

Same area just now.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Why is this recent flurry of nonsense considered 'News'? Yes, MH17 was downed by a Russian manufactured Buk missile. We have known that for years. Buk's are carried by the Russian & Ukrainian defence forces, and the Ukrainian 'rebels'. The question is, who fired it? The second question is, was it a deliberate strike (seems unlikely) or a case of mistaken identity?
> 
> So, Yawwwn.


Maybe if you read some of the recent news, you'd have a fucking clue to at least one of your questions, wouldn't you?

----------


## sabang

^ If you actually have something 'new' that I failed to notice, then cease your incessant babbling and cut n' paste it here (with link, of course).

Until such time, we know what downed the airliner, but still don't know who fired it- even the Malaysian government agrees, ffs.

----------


## OhOh

> we know what downed the airliner,


Not so fast.

Some believe it may be different models of SAM (surface to air) missile. Depending on the model,  the countries who had that missile type in their active military arsenal would be capable of firing it and bring down the passenger plane. Those that didn't would not. 

Evidence of the damage the different missile models would produce were provided by the missile types manufacturers. There is no indication as to whether that evidence has been incorporated in the current inquiries findings. The evidence displayed at the recent announcement of Russia's guilt indicated that Russia did not have the actual model in their arsenal at the time of the incident.

There are questions as to whether the missile displayed and the unused missiles, on the back of a launcher allegedly photographed at the time 'rushing back to Russia", are the same model.

Other are still suggesting a military plane brought the passenger plane down with an AAM (air to Air) missiles. Depending on what weapon was used determines who had the capability/opportunity to fire the cannon, missile or missiles that brought down the aircraft. 

There is also the missing radar data problem. The current inquiry has not shown evidence from all parties with proven capability. This might suggest those who have failed to provide evidence may be hiding something.

So, currently, we do not know who or what brought down the passenger jet. What we do know is one country is being asked to admit it did it. Russia.

Is this another 'Kiev Based Russian Reporter Murdered by Russia", moment?

*‘Certainly not’: Putin denies Russian missile shot down flight MH17*

Published time: 25 May, 2018 16:11 Edited time: 26 May, 2018 16:02 


The missile manufacturers have identified discrepancy in the alleged missile produced, what type of ordinance the displayed missile carried and who had them in their arsenals at th time of the incident etc.

https://www.rt.com/news/427799-mh17-...e-not-russian/

----------


## Klondyke

In such cases when it can always be used against Russia (or was it as such planted), no facts/evidents are necessery - just "highly likely" is enough for the powers that be...

Sadly, not only for "powers that be" (they follow their promising agenda), but also for some who cannot admit they have bet on a wrong horse (please no names here).

Who will have the guts to tell them: "How dare you, stop the nonsence"?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Not so fast.


No - We know what downed it.

Stop waffling.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^ If you actually have something 'new' that I failed to notice, then cease your incessant babbling and cut n' paste it here (with link, of course).
> 
> Until such time, we know what downed the airliner, but still don't know who fired it- even the Malaysian government agrees, ffs.


Post #776:




> _The surface-to-air missile that shot down Malaysia Airlines flight_ MH17_, a Boeing 777, belonged to the Russian armed forces, the Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team (JIT) said May 24.
> _



Post #781




> Australia and the Netherlands have formally accused Russia of being responsible for downing a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet in 2014.


So perhaps you should read the fucking news before you actually start spouting bollocks about it, eh?

 :Smile:

----------


## OhOh

> We


The royal "we", take credit but no responsibility.




> If you actually have something


The question was directed to you, not some imaginary, "we".

----------


## harrybarracuda

> The royal "we", take credit but no responsibility.
> 
> 
> 
> The question was directed to you, not some imaginary, "we".


Oh stop waffling.

----------


## OhOh

Oh dear,

It appears the Russians have a complete paper trail of the missile and video analysis the JIT allege was used to bring down MH17.

Serial numbers of missile that downed MH17 show it was produced in 1986, owned by Ukraine - Russia 

The serial numbers found on debris of the Buk missile which  downed Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 over eastern Ukraine show it was  produced in 1986, the Russian military said. The projectile was owned by  Ukraine, they added.      

There are two serial  numbers found on fragments of the missile, which shot down the passenger  airliner in June 2014 according to an international team of  investigators led by the Netherlands. The numbers were marked on the  engine and the nozzle of the missile.

The Russian military on Monday said they had traced them to a missile which had the producer serial number 8868720.

peaking to journalists, Gen. Nikolay Parshin showed a document trail of  the Buk missile. According to the documents, some of which have been  declassified for the presentation, it was produced at a military plant  in Dolgoprudny in the Moscow region in 1986.

The missile was shipped from the plant on December 29, 1986 and  delivered to military unit 20152 located in what is now Ukraine. It is  now called 223rd anti-aircraft defense regiment of the Ukrainian armed  forces, the report said. The unit took part in Kiev's crackdown on  rebels in eastern Ukraine in June 2014, the general said.
The  evidence disproves the accusations by Ukraine and some other parties,  which claim that a missile fired by a launcher, secretly delivered from  Russia, was responsible for the downing of MH17, the Ministry of Defense  report said. All the materials have been sent to the Dutch  investigators, the Russian military added.

The Russian military also challenges video footage used by the UK-based group Bellingcat,  which calls itself a citizen journalism organization, to back its  allegations about the delivery of the Buk launcher from Russia. The  Defense Ministry showed a video clip with some of the footage,  highlighting inconsistencies, which it said proved that the footage had  been manipulated to place images of the launcher into background which  were not in the original.
The Bellingcat investigation was  featured in the latest update by Dutch prosecutors involved in the MH17  investigation, prompting the Russian military to study it in detail,  they said. The Russian video showed an example of how an Abrams tank can  be shown to be carried by a trailer in the streets of Ukraine in the  same way.

Video, photos and more here:

https://www.rt.com/news/438596-mh17-...sian-briefing/

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Oh dear,
> 
> It appears the Russians have a complete paper trail of the missile and video analysis the JIT allege was used to bring down MH17.


Of course they have. RT said so.


 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## OhOh

> Of course they have. RT said so.


Dutch prosecutors investigating the downing of flight MH17 have said  they will study any information that Russia provides, after its  officials said they had proof the missile that hit the plane was in  Ukrainian hands


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45546611


 :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Dutch prosecutors investigating the downing of flight MH17 have said  they will study any information that Russia provides, after its  officials said they had proof the missile that hit the plane was in  Ukrainian hands
> 
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45546611


Of course they will study it. But they already know it's horseshit.

----------


## misskit

*Russia's Defense Ministry unveils its latest MH17 denial*On September 17, the Russian Defense Ministry presented more claims that it wasn’t responsible for supplying the weapon that destroyed Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over eastern Ukraine in 2014. Based on “declassified archives,” Russian officials once again said the missile that downed the plane was fired from territory controlled by the Ukrainian military. The Defense Ministry also played an excerpt from an audio tape where a man identified as a colonel in the Ukrainian army discusses bringing down “another Malaysian Boeing.” 


Finally, Russian military officials accused foreign investigators on the Joint Investigation Team of doctoring video footage to produce evidence that the “Buk” missile system responsible for the MH17 disaster was delivered from Russia and then snuck back across the border.


Eliot Higgins, the founder of the open-source intelligence group Bellingcat, responded to the Defense Minstry’s new claims, tweeting, “I expect some very stupid people will be very excited about the Russian Defense Ministry’s MH17 press conference.” In subsequent tweets, he explained that Moscow was merely “misinterpreting the shadows and objects” in video footage, and concluded that “Russia’s ‘experts’ don’t have a clue what they’re talking to, and don’t have access to the same original source material we have.”


In an official reaction, the Joint Intelligence Team said it would review Moscow’s new materials, but pointed out that information supplied by Russian officials in the past “was factually inaccurate on several points.” The JIT also restated its conclusion that the missile that downed MH17 was brought from Russia, returned to Russia, and fired from an area controlled by pro-Russian separatists.


https://meduza.io/en/news/2018/09/18...st-mh17-denial

----------


## harrybarracuda

> an official reaction, the Joint Intelligence Team said it would review Moscow’s new materials, but pointed out that information supplied by Russian officials in the past “was factually inaccurate on several points.”


Translation: Vlad is a terrible liar.

----------


## Klondyke

> Translation: Vlad is a terrible liar.


Who should bother with evidence for liars?


*Evidence Is No Longer A Western Value*

Russia Provides Conclusive Proof That Ukraine Downed Malaysia Airlines MH17

Of course, proof, facts, evidence are no longer of any consequence in the Western World. Transparently false accusations can be leveled without any evidence provided, and the lie becomes a fact. “Russiagate” is a perfect example.

Feminist students in Western universities, who find themselves “offended” by scientific fact, denounce scientists for speaking truth that contradicts feminist ideology, and the university administrations, obedient to feminish ideology, haul the scientists before hearings ideologically prepared to declare the scientist, if male, a misogynist. https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/201...-with-science/

History is rewritten into fantasy because the historical facts are “offensive” to one “victim group” or the other. Identity politics has birthed a new world: history is whatever serves agendas. Nothing else counts. Truth least of all.

Justice no longer exists in America as 97% of felony convictions result from self-incrimination—plea bargains in which the defendant, innocent or guilty, advised by his attorney that a fair trial is impossible, admits to some offense in exchange for a watered-down sentence. See Roberts and Stratton, The Tyranny of Good Intentions: https://www.amazon.com/Tyranny-Good-...+Craig+Roberts 

Decades ago when there was still some semblance of justice in the American justice system, police had to provide sound evidence for their case in order for the prosecutor to take up the case. The reason was that prosecutorial budgets were limited, and the career interests of prosecutors was to get as many convictions out of their budget as possible. Today, however, when even the innocent prefer to admit a crime rather than run the risk of a trial, prosecutors have endless strings of “convictions” without having to spend days or weeks in trial.

Today prosecutors no longer have to prove a case before a jury. They only negotiate with the defendant’s attorney a crime, whether committed or not, that settles the case.

Read more
https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/201...western-value/

----------


## OhOh

^Your pulling the curtain to quickly, slowly, slowly, so they can absorb and adjust to this new world. Otherwise fear turns to rage, turns to anger, against the exposer.

----------


## Klondyke

> Serial numbers of missile that downed MH17 show it was produced in 1986, owned by Ukraine - Russia


A deafening silence from the JIT and Bellingcat. Or did we miss something?

----------


## Klondyke

*Ukrainian Security Official Says Ukraine Shot Down MH-17 

*Paul Craig Roberts

298 Passengers and crew were murdered by Ukraine in order to create a propaganda attack on Russia.  The filth that comprise the Western media and governments hid the truth for the sake of Washington’s anti-Russian propaganda.  

The security official says that his suspicions were aroused by “the amazingly prompt reaction of the Ukrainian leadership,” which “indicated prior knowledge of the affair.”  Perhaps readers will remember that at the time I pointed out that the event was clearly staged as the same propagandistic accusation against Russia appeared everywhere instantly long before any investigation.  Indeed, the investigation was stillborn as it could not be concocted to indicate Russia’s guilt.

Don’t be surprised. Western governments and media only lie.  Never do they tell the truth.  Remember:  Russiagate.  Weapons of mass destruction.  Iranian nukes.  Assad’s use of chemical weapons.  Gulf of Tonkin.  9/11. Russian invasion of Ukraine.  JFK assassination. MLK assassination.  Bobby Kennedy assassination.  Skripal poisoning. Maduro starving his own people.  An endless list of lies.  The entirety of the West is nothing but a lie factory.  

https://www.fort-russ.com/2019/03/br...de-in-donbass/ 

https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/201...ot-down-mh-17/

----------


## OhOh

It appears the Asians are becoming restless.

*Netherlands took note of Malaysian PM’s statement on MH17 crash, media report*



_"THE HAGUE, May 31. /TASS/. The government of Netherlands has taken note of the statement by Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Bin Mohamad concerning the MH17 plane crash in Ukraine in July 2014, the RTL channel informed on Friday, citing the Dutch Foreign Ministry.
_
_"We have taken note of these statements," the ministry noted, adding that Malaysia "has always supported the investigation both from the angle of bilateral relations and as a member of the Joint Investigation Team."
_
_Earlier, Mohamad claimed that the investigation of the MH17 crash had been politicized, noting that the plane may have been shot down by Ukraine._
_The Boeing-777 passenger plane operated by Malaysian Airlines crashed on July 17, 2014, en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur in the east of the Donetsk Region. As a result, 298 people, citizens of 10 states, were killed in the crash. The parties to the armed conflict in Donbass accused each other of being complicit in the tragedy.
_
_On May 24, 2018, the Joint Investigation Team (JIT), consisting of representatives from Australia, Belgium, Malaysia, the Netherlands and Ukraine, released its update on the criminal investigation into the MH17 crash. According to the JIT, "the BUK-TELAR that was used to down MH17 originates from the 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile brigade (hereinafter 53rd brigade), a unit of the Russian army from Kursk in the Russian Federation."_
_Russia’s Defense Ministry rejected all the accusations saying that none of the Russian Army’s air defense missile systems had ever crossed the border between Russia and Ukraine."_



More:
TASS: World - Netherlands took note of Malaysian PM?s statement on MH17 crash, media report

----------


## Klondyke

*MH17 SURVIVORS SHOCKED BY DUTCH NATIONALIST’S CRASH CONSPIRACY THEORIES*
May 24, 2019

The relatives of the victims killed in the MH17 disaster were shocked by statements made by FvD leader Thierry Baudet in his debate with VVD leader Mark Rutte on Wednesday. Baudet questioned the independence of the Joint Investigation Team's investigation into the downing of the plane. He also said that Ukraine may be behind the attack.

"I have my doubts about the investigation by the JIT. Ukraine is also one of the possible perpetrators of this attack." Baudet said.  Almost every time the JIT published some of its findings, Russia quickly responded by questioning the independence of the investigation and pointing the finger to Ukraine. According to Baudet, it is up to the judge to decide who was responsible for the MH17 disaster, and not to politicians to anticipate a verdict and blame Russia.

These statements shocked Stichting Vliegramp MH17, the foundation set up to support the relatives of the MH17 victims. "To be honest, I thought they were scandalous. Mr. Baudet is a representative of the people and apparently excludes a group of many thousands of relatives", Piet Ploeg of the foundation said to RTL Nieuws. "He certainly has not supported us with his story. He said things that are incorrect, without any knowledge about the things he is saying. And what he has done with his comments about the Joint Investigation Team is that he in fact discredited the independence of the JIT."

"We also know that the results presented so far by the JIT enjoy worldwide support. What Mr. Baudet does is soiling his own nest. He makes the Netherlands unbelievable and that does not suit him a s chairman of a large party", Ploeg said. 

Flight MH17 was shot down over eastern Ukraine on July 17th, 2014. All 298 people on board, including 196 Dutch, were killed. Investigation by the Dutch Safety Board and the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) so far revealed that the Malaysian Airlines flight was shot down by a BUK missile system from the 53rd Anti-aircraft Brigade of the Russian Armed Forces, fired from a field in Ukraine that was under the control of pro-Russian separatists at the time.

The JIT tracked a convoy of nearly 50 military vehicles, including the BUK that shot down MH17, from a 53rd Brigade parking area in Kursk to the border of Ukraine between June 23rd and 25th, 2014 - a few weeks before MH17 was shot down. Australia and the Netherlands officially held Russia accountable for its role in the MH17 disaster - providing the missile that shot down the plane - in May last year. 

In September Russia held a press conference in which the country said that the BUK missile was indeed made in Russia, but was in Ukrainian hands at the time of the disaster. Russia has been pointing the finger to Ukraine since the disaster happened. In October the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs said that it is willing to discuss MH17 liability with the Netherlands, "partly with the goal of looking professionally at the responsibility of Ukraine". The first meetings happened in March. 

https://nltimes.nl/2019/05/24/mh17-s...iracy-theories




> Thierry Henri Philippe Baudet (born 28 January 1983) is a Dutch politician. He is the founder and the current political leader of the right wing political party Forum for Democracy (FvD, Dutch: Forum voor Democratie). He has been a member of the House of Representatives since 23 March 2017.

----------


## OhOh

> The JIT tracked a convoy of nearly 50 military vehicles, including the BUK that shot down MH17, from a 53rd Brigade parking area in Kursk to the border of Ukraine between June 23rd and 25th, 2014 - a few weeks before MH17 was shot down.


That evidence shows a distinct lack of proof of any entry into Ukraine, of the Russian forces. One hopes they have "secret evidence" rather than just a "highly likely" opinion.

One assumes that any citizen of UK, heading towards the GLA could be charged, tried and imprisoned for any of the burglaries, muggings, rapes and assaults which occur within London, similarly

----------


## HermantheGerman

> *Netherlands took note of Malaysian PMs statement on MH17 crash, media report*


I think they "took note" because the ole 94 year old geezer hasn't accomplished anything yet in his country and everyone is surpised that he can still talk.

----------


## HermantheGerman

> Flight MH17 was shot down over eastern Ukraine on July 17th, 2014.....
> In September Russia held a press conference in which the country said that the BUK missile was indeed made in Russia,


It took them 5 years to find out that the missile was indeed made in Russia  :rofl: 

It will take them another 100 years to find out "Indeed Putin was a shithead".

----------


## baldrick

> lack of proof of any entry into Ukraine, of the Russian forces


maybe to you - tell us a story about crimea

----------


## OhOh

> maybe to you


Please tell your version of factual truth.




> tell us a story about crimea


It has a long history, which century/decade did you have in mind?

----------


## Klondyke

> It took them 5 years to find out that the missile was indeed made in Russia


Unlike to others, it took just 5 minutes them to know who did it... (same as May about Skripals)

----------


## OhOh

> (same as May about Skripals)


To be fair she only suggested it was "highly likely", which unfortunately to some regimes these days is regarded as factual proof.

----------


## baldrick

> It has a long history, which century/decade did you have in mind?


you said russian forces which means after the breakup of the USSR





> Please tell your version of factual truth.


MH17 was obviously shot down by the same fcukers using the BUK missile system to shoot down other Ukrainian air force jets - and they thought it was an AN-26

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...rainian_crisis

----------


## OhOh

> you said russian forces which means after the breakup of the USSR


Or prior to it's creation.  :Smile: 




> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...rainian_crisis


My apologies if wiki has it on one of it's pages then we must believe it.  :Smile:

----------


## Hugh Cow

> Unlike to others, it took just 5 minutes them to know who did it... (same as May about Skripals)


Of course those Russian ex agents just wanted to see a cathedral while they had a spare day. Makes perfect sense to me. Coincidentally its only anti Putin journalists or opposition politicians that get murdered.

----------


## baldrick

> My apologies if wiki has it on one of it's pages then we must believe it


it is a list of ukrainian aircraft that have been shot down - you may believe that it is strategically advantageous to go around shooting down your own aircraft , that is up to you

----------


## Klondyke

> Coincidentally its only anti Putin journalists or opposition politicians that get murdered.


Ever heard (read) something like (please no name here) "...body count"? All of those bodies "anti Putin" journalists?

(didn't know that Kashoggi was anti-Putin...)

And what about these lists:
https://cpj.org/data/killed/?status=...&group_by=year

https://rsf.org/en/journalists-killed

https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...-panama-papers

----------


## harrybarracuda

> you said russian forces which means after the breakup of the USSR
> 
> MH17 was obviously shot down by the same fcukers using the BUK missile system to shoot down other Ukrainian air force jets - and they thought it was an AN-26
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...rainian_crisis



There is no point presenting facts to OhOh, he will only ever peddle the Putin or Winnie the Pooh line, the snivelling sycophant.

----------


## OhOh

> There is no point presenting facts


That aircraft were shot down prior to MH17 appears to be factual.

Have you factual evidence, you can produce, that Russian military forces under the control and direction of the Russian government did the dastardly act for these prior successfully completed attacks?

 ::chitown::

----------


## baldrick

> Have you factual evidence, you can produce, that Russian military forces under the control and direction of the Russian government did the dastardly act for these prior successfully completed attacks?


who has said that ?  are you moving goalposts ?

the seperatists are being supported by the russian military or their preferred private contractor - the wagner group

they were given the BUK system which they used to shoot down several aircraft and ultimately the airliner

if you do not believe that happened - that is up to you

it is the highest on the list of probablilties , so likely is the most probable explanation of events

----------


## harrybarracuda

> who has said that ?  are you moving goalposts ?
> 
> the seperatists are being supported by the russian military or their preferred private contractor - the wagner group
> 
> they were given the BUK system which they used to shoot down several aircraft and ultimately the airliner
> 
> if you do not believe that happened - that is up to you
> 
> it is the highest on the list of probablilties , so likely is the most probable explanation of events


Just remember that we had lots of silly HoHo fairy tales before the Buk was proven.

Ukrainian fighters, bombs on board, etc. etc.

He'll spout any old bollocks to support the Putin line.

----------


## HermantheGerman

> That aircraft were shot down prior to MH17 appears to be factual.
> 
> Have you factual evidence, you can produce, that Russian military forces under the control and direction of the Russian government did the dastardly act for these prior successfully completed attacks?



Russia is a dictatorship and uses a weapon called censors.
Your BS with factual evidence can not be applied to this country.
Maybe one day you will figure it out.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

In the meantime you have the "Freedom" to inform yourself which most russian don't. That's the factual evidence my son.

----------


## Klondyke

^
"Freedom"?

To that is what I posted yesterday what John Swinton - a prominent journalist, also in the New York Times - said on a press banquet in 1883:

_
There is no such a thing in America as an independent press, unless it is out in country towns. You are all slaves. You know it, and I know it. There is not one of you who dares to express an honest opinion. If you expressed it, you would know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid $150 for keeping honest opinions out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for doing similar things. If I should allow honest opinions to be printed in one issue of my paper, I would be like Othello before twenty-four hours: my occupation would be gone. The man who would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the street hunting for another job. The business of a New York journalist is to distort the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to villify, to fawn at the feet of Mammon, and to sell his country and his race for his daily bread, or for what is about the same  his salary. You know this, and I know it; and what foolery to be toasting an "Independent Press"! We are the tools and vassals of rich men behind the scenes. We are jumping-jacks. They pull the string and we dance. Our time, our talents, our lives, our possibilities, are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes.
_

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Russia is a dictatorship and uses a weapon called censors.
> Your BS with factual evidence can not be applied to this country.
> Maybe one day you will figure it out. 
> 
> In the meantime you have the "Freedom" to inform yourself which most russian don't. That's the factual evidence my son.


You also have the freedom to inform other people without being fed a glowing cup of tea.

----------


## OhOh

> they were given the BUK system


Are you suggesting the Russians supplied BUK systems and others AA systems? No other sources are possible, none of the eastern Ukrainians had the skills, from being in the Ukrainian military prior to the MH17 attack? No Ukrainian arms were located in the eastern area prior to the illgal regime change?




> so likely is the most probable explanation of events


But obviously not the only possibility available to answer the MH17 attack question.




> Ukrainian fighters, bombs on board, etc. etc.


As the "evidence" has not been publicly tested or even confirmed their, currently, is no conclusive evidence to confirm any cause of the MH17 crash. The old "highly likely" suggestion again.




> He'll spout any old bollocks to support the Putin line.


As opposed to your wiki version of the truth.




> Russia is a dictatorship and uses a weapon called censors.


THE LORD won a democratically arrived at position. You may disagree with the election system, but then other, alleged, election systems are questioned. 

Many countries censor "free speech", aint you noticed




> That's the factual evidence my son.


My, you must be very old. Your "factual evidence" in unproven and tragically, along with a plane full of innocent passengers, has been shot to pieces.




> without being fed a glowing cup of tea.


Or late one night be bundled into a car, hooded, drugged and wake up with a dozen other naked prisoners, being filmed for the "folks back home" safe and sound in their cardboard box, surrounded by last weeks shit under a bridge.

But I digress from the thread topic.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> THE LORD won a democratically arrived at position.


Stop being so fucking silly.

----------


## baldrick

> Are you suggesting the Russians supplied BUK systems


of course they did

----------


## OhOh

You are aware they are/were part of the Ukrainian weapons armoury at the time and now.

----------


## baldrick

^ yes - where were they manufactured ?  Ekaterinburg

----------


## harrybarracuda

Everyone knows Russia is to blame but Putin is a c u n t and will never let the murderers face justice.

----------


## Hugh Cow

> maybe to you - tell us a story about crimea


Or possibly South Ossetia

----------


## Klondyke

(At last, after 5 years, we will be told the truth?)

*Next week, the perpetrators of the collapse of the MH17 in the Donbas will be called - media*
June 14, 2019

The joint investigation team for the investigation of the disaster MH17 (JIT) intends to hold a press conference on June 19, at which progress in the investigation will be presented. Reports about it "European truth" .

Dutch prosecutors did not disclose the details, but reports that the investigators will announce the names of those responsible for knocking down the airliner.

Earlier, the international team of investigators Bellingcat discovered the names of various Russian soldiers who may be involved in the release of the Russian Buka missile.

JIT is the international Joint Investigation Team for the investigation of the MH17 disaster consisting of the Netherlands, Australia, Belgium, Malaysia and Ukraine. It was created more than a month after the Malaysian Airlines plane was shot down in the sky over the Donbass in July 2014. There were 298 people on board - they all died.

The preliminary results of the accident investigation were presented by the JIT investigators in May last year. The investigation established that the MH17 aircraft was shot down over the Donbas from the “Buka” of the Russian brigade from Kursk.

Australia and the Netherlands have called on Russia to assume state responsibility and cooperate with them to ensure justice. Russia denies accusations of involvement in the collapse of the Malaysian "Boeing" over the Donetsk region in 2014.

Earlier, Strana wrote that the  Netherlands demanded an explanation from the Malaysian prime minister, who doubted Rossi’s involvement in the crash of MH17 . 

We also reported that the  SBU is looking for a Russian officer - possibly involved in the Boeing MH17 crash .

https://strana.ua/news/206446-mezhdu...-donbasse.html

----------


## OhOh

> We also reported that the SBU is looking for a Russian officer


Good luck with finding that particular officer.

----------


## misskit

*MH17: Four charged with shooting down plane over Ukraine*For the first time since Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down in July 2014, prosecutors have announced charges against suspects in the case.


Three Russians and a Ukrainian have been charged with transporting a missile into the area and with murdering 298 passengers and crew.


Passenger flight MH17 was en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur when it was shot down over conflict-hit Ukraine.
A court case will begin in the Netherlands on 9 March 2020. 


International arrest warrants have been issued for the four men. 


The Dutch-led joint investigation team (JIT) named the men as Igor Girkin, Sergey Dubinskiy and Oleg Pulatov from Russia, as well as Ukrainian Leonid Kharchenko of involvement.


The JIT, which seeks to try the suspects under Dutch law, previously said it had a "long list" of persons of interest and appealed again for witnesses as the investigation continues.
p
*Who are the four suspects?*Igor Girkin (also known as Strelkov) is a former colonel of the FSB - Russia's intelligence service, prosecutors say. He was given the minister of defence title in the rebel-held eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk. He is believed to be the highest military officer in the area who was in direct contact with the Russian Federation. In a statement Mr Girkin said: "I can only say that militia did not shoot down the Boeing."


Sergei Dubinskiy (known as Khmuriy), who was employed by Russia's GRU military intelligence agency, was a deputy of Mr Girkin and also in regular contact with Russia, according to prosecutors.


Oleg Pulatov, known as Giurza, is a former soldier of the Spetznaz GRU - the special forces of Russia military intelligence - and was deputy head of the intelligence service in Donetsk, the JIT said.


Ukrainian Leonid Kharchenko has no military background but led a combat unit as a commander in Eastern Ukraine, prosecutors said.



https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48691488

----------


## Norton

> International arrest warrants have been issued for the four men.


Sure they will be immediately arrested and turned over wherever they may be.  :Wink:

----------


## Klondyke

What a surprise. 
Similarly surprisingly, however much faster, in less than one year, the UN discovered who is behind the Kashoggi murder:

*‘Credible evidence’ Saudi crown prince liable for Khashoggi killing – UN report*
Mohammed bin Salman should be investigated over journalist’s murder, says report

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ence-un-report

----------


## OhOh

Some may thing that it is "highly likely" the evidences was concocted by an MI6 agent.. 

It wouldn't be the first time. Maybe they are safe for a couple of years before the "evidence" is denounced as fraudulent.

I suspect their planned ski trip to Canada's Lake Louise is off for the time being.

----------


## Klondyke

Who is so naive to think that after five years of "investigation" they will say sorry we have made mistake, it's not so as we have claimed from the beginning...

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Sure they will be immediately arrested and turned over wherever they may be.


Vlad will protect his fellow murderers as usual.

----------


## OhOh

> fellow murderers


Yet to be proven.

Amnesty will be offered and the charge modified to, "Crushing baby green shoots, by parking a vehicle in a cornfield". 

 If they reveal how to create a "Klingon Cloaking Device" to enable launchers to disappear at on location and appear 100s km/lys away.

----------


## Klondyke

*MH17 Evidence-Tampering Exposed: Cover-Ups, Hiding Records, Witness Misreporting, & FBI Seizures

*A new documentary from Max van der Werff, the leading independent investigator of the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 disaster, has revealed breakthrough evidence of tampering and forging of prosecution materials;  suppression of Ukrainian Air Force radar tapes;  and lying by the Dutch, Ukrainian, US and Australian governments. An attempt by agents of the US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to take possession of the black boxes of the downed aircraft is also revealed by a Malaysian National Security Council official for the first time.

The sources of the breakthrough are Malaysian - Prime Minister of Malaysia Mohamad Mahathir; Colonel Mohamad Sakri, the officer in charge of the MH17 investigation for the Prime Minister’s Department and Malaysia’s National Security Council following the crash on July 17, 2014; and a forensic analysis by Malaysia’s OG IT Forensic Services of Ukrainian Secret Service (SBU) telephone tapes which Dutch prosecutors have announced as genuine.

The 298 casualties of MH17 included 192 Dutch; 44 Malaysians; 27 Australians; 15 Indonesians.  The nationality counts vary because the airline manifest does not identify dual nationals of Australia, the UK, and the US. 

The new film throws the full weight of the Malaysian Government, one of the five members of the Joint Investigation Team (JIT), against the published findings and the recent indictment of Russian suspects reported by the Dutch officials in charge of the JIT; in addition to Malaysia and The Netherlands, the members of the JIT are Australia, Ukraine and Belgium. Malaysia’s exclusion from the JIT at the outset, and Belgium’s inclusion (4 Belgian nationals were listed on the MH17 passenger manifest), have never been explained. 

The film reveals the Malaysian Government’s evidence for judging the JIT’s witness testimony, photographs, video clips, and telephone tapes to have been manipulated by the Ukrainian Security Service (SBU), and to be inadmissible in a criminal prosecution in a Malaysian or other national or international court.

For the first time also, the Malaysian Government reveals how it got in the way of attempts the US was organizing during the first week after the crash to launch a NATO military attack on eastern Ukraine. The cover story for that was to rescue the plane, passenger bodies, and evidence of what had caused the crash. In fact, the operation was aimed at defeating the separatist  movements in the Donbass, and to move against Russian-held Crimea.

The new film reveals that a secret Malaysian military operation took custody of the MH17 black boxes on July 22, preventing the US and Ukraine from seizing them.  The Malaysian operation, revealed in the film by the Malaysian Army colonel who led it, eliminated the evidence for the camouflage story, reinforcing the German Government’s opposition to the armed attack, and forcing the Dutch to call off the invasion on July 27.  

The 28-minute documentary by Max van der Werff and Yana Yerlashova has just been released. Yerlashova was the film director and co-producer with van der Werff and Ahmed Rifazal. Vitaly Biryaukov directed the photography. Watch it in full here. 

MH17 - CALL FOR JUSTICE




Read more
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-...N620FFbPF1BIZw

----------


## Klondyke

*Russia and the Netherlands quietly discussed the downed Boeing*

Moscow and Amsterdam are in contact with each other over the crash of the Boeing in the Donbass in 2014. About this, the Ambassador of the Netherlands to Russia Rene Jones-Bos told Interfax .

According to her, the parties are currently interacting and deciding the issue of holding full-fledged consultations on the downed aircraft. Jones-Bos noted that the Netherlands "is in contact with Russian stakeholders who are also addressing this issue." At the same time, “the parties do not share information with the outside world,” she added.

In July, a private investigator from Germany Josef Resch said that the Netherlands had refused to take into account new information about the crash "Boeing".

The Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777, flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, crashed in the Donetsk region on July 17, 2014. All 298 people on board died. An international investigation concluded that the plane was shot down by a Buk missile, and announced the names of four suspects, including three Russians and a Ukrainian. A trial in this case is expected in the spring of 2020.

The Russian Foreign Ministry called the accusations “absolutely unfounded” and emphasized that the investigation team did not provide any concrete evidence of Russian involvement in the disaster.

There are examples in history of compensating victims without a guilty plea. This order is called ex gratia (literally “out of grace”).

https://lenta.ru/news/2019/08/15/contacts

----------


## Klondyke

*Better later, than never: Members of Dutch Parliament urge to investigate Ukraine's role in #MH17 disaster. (Ukrainian source)
*https://twitter.com/VeraVanHorne/sta...09199747436544

----------


## Klondyke

*DUTCH PARLIAMENT CALLS FOR INVESTIGATION INTO UKRAINE’S INVOLVEMENT IN MH17 INCIDENT
*After years of lies and propaganda, European officials finally started asking obvious and logical questions about the MH17 tragedy.

The Dutch parliament requests an investigation into the role Ukraine played in the MH17 incident in 2014. The Tweede Kamer, the lower house of Parliament, specifically wants a look into why the airspace above eastern Ukraine wasn’t closed despite there being fighting in the area.

A motion filed by CDA and SP to that extent received the support of all parties that attended a debate on the matter.

According to CDA parliamentarian Chris van Dam, this investigation must be launched as soon as possible.

“Memories are fading, data is being lost”, he said. “It’s about insight for the bereaved, knowing if something could have been prevented, understanding what happened.”

Minister of Foreign Affairs Stef Blok showed reluctance towards an investigation, possibly because it would go counter to the narrative of simply blaming Russia and the Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics.

“We don’t see any reason for it legally”, he said in the Kamer. An investigation will not be easy, because it will also need Russian cooperation, he said. “It is also about their airspace.”
He ultimately agreed in making a fact-finding investigation.

In 2015 the Dutch Safety Board ruled that Ukraine should have closed the airspace above the conflict zone in the east of the country.

If the airspace above eastern Ukraine had been closed, the flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur would’ve taken a different route and the 298 people on board would’ve been saved. Despite that, no investigation had been launched into why Ukraine had not undertaken any steps.

The parliament further discussed why Ukraine released a eye-witness in the MH17 investigation – Vladimir Tsemach in the framework of the prisoner exchange. The parliament was actually astonished that it turned out Foreign Minister Stef Blok hadn’t spoken to the Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov at all regarding Tsemach. It was assumed that the Dutch government would take this up at the highest level, but in reality, only the Russian ambassador had been called and told that Tsemach needed to be available for questioning.

Blok did not contact Moscow, or speak to his Russian counterpart at the annual UN meeting in New York. He said that “he was waiting for the right moment.” And the meeting would be held in consultation with the Public Prosecution Service and the Joint Investigation Team.

Ahead of the prosoner swap, the Netherlands urged Ukraine to not hand over Vladimir Tsemakh to Russia. Tsemah, a citizen of Ukraine (as well as many others people handed to Russia) and a former member of an air defense unit of self-defense forces of the Donetsk People’s Republic.

Ukrainian special forces kidnapped Tsemakh from the DPR and moved him to Kiev in June. According to initial claims by Ukraine’s State Security Service (SBU), they detained the driver of a towing truck that transported Buk missile involved in the incident with Boeing 777 of Malaysian Airlines (flight MH17) over eastern Ukraine in July 2014. However, later, the SBU was forced to denounce its own claims. Tsemakh’s air defense unit consisted of one vehicle with Zu-23 anti-aircraft gun and was not deployed near the incident site when the tragedy took place.

Months of torturing and pressure by Ukrainian intelligence did not force Tsemakh to participate in the slapstick comedy show called ‘international investigation of the MH17 crash’. In fact, Ukraine obtained no real evidence confirming any Tsemakh links to the MH17 case because if it had, Kiev would never hand over him to Russia.

Therefore, the official mainstream propaganda turned Tsemakh into a ‘witness’ of the MH17 tragedy.

…

By this move, the Netherlands admitted that it is not a neutral side and is not interested in an objective investigation of the MH17 tragedy. The Dutch side had a lot of time to question the supposed witness. However, this was not enough and it wanted the person to remain in Ukraine, where Tsemakh would be subjected to constant physical and psychological pressure.

Essentially, it is showing how disoriented the Dutch government is in the MH17 investigation at this point, since it’s becoming more and more of a farce. Even the Malaysian government continues asking for evidence that Russia or the Donetsk/Luhansk People’s Republics are to blame for the incident. Almost no effort is being put to propagate the narrative at this point.

https://southfront.org/dutch-parliam...mh17-incident/

----------


## misskit

*MH17 Probe Releases New Phone Calls Linking Suspects to Top Russians**Investigators said they were making a 'new witness appeal' based on 'recorded telephone calls between the leaders of the Donetsk People's Republic, a separatist group and high-ranking Russian officials.*The Hague: A Dutch-led probe into the shooting-down of flight MH17 over Ukraine in 2014 released new intercepted phone calls on Thursday between high-ranking Russian officials and suspects facing trial over the crash.


Investigators said they were making a "new witness appeal" based on "recorded telephone calls between the leaders of the DPR (Donetsk People's Republic, a separatist group) and high-ranking Russian officials."





"Ties between Russian officials and DPR leaders appear to have been much closer" than originally believed, Andy Kraag, the head of Dutch police's Criminal Investigations Division, said in a video statement.


Investigators said in June that they were going to put three Russian nationals and one Ukrainian on trial in the Netherlands in March 2020 over the downing of the Malaysia Airlines jet, although they will likely be tried in absentia.


The Boeing passenger plane travelling from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur was shot down by a Russian-made BUK missile in 2014 over eastern Ukraine. All 298 people on board were killed.


Investigators said on Thursday they had now established that Russian officials and the Ukrainian rebels used secure communications that "appear to be provided by the Russian security service FSB".


The special phones were "used by Russian top officials in their contact with the fighters", said David Nelson, senior investigations officer with the Australian Federal Police.


"We have released recorded conversations they had about administrative, financial and military business," Nelson added.

https://www.news18.com/news/world/mh...s-2387171.html

----------


## harrybarracuda

Why are they bothering.

We know the Russians did it.

And they'll never admit to it.

----------


## Klondyke

Without a strong help from Bellingcat it would take much longer - to the intercepted telephones...


*From Stasi To Bellingcat: Former East German Agent Turns Investigative Reporter  

*Bellingcat researcher Timmi Allen zooms in on Google Earth to a Berlin police station where he once worked for East Germany's feared secret police -- the Stasi.

"Under this [station] there is a deep bunker that was supposed to be able to withstand a nuclear bomb," he says.

Allen's manner is calm and unemotional. But this conversation at his modest Berlin home is a big deal.

This is the first time he has given a media interview revealing details of his past working for the Stasi, which was notorious for its brutality and repressive methods.

Speaking to RFE/RL, Allen describes pursuing “enemies of the state” from a drab office in the East German capital using index cards and a typewriter.

It’s a stark contrast to his role at the independent investigative organization Bellingcat, in which he used cutting-edge 3D computer graphics to help expose a Russian role in shooting down Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 over Ukraine in 2014, killing 298 people.

“I would not like to return [to the time in the Stasi]. I was glad when it was finished,” says Allen, who graduated with a criminology degree from East Berlin’s Humboldt University before joining the state security service.

“These are all things which are useful today -- but that is not what brought me to Bellingcat,” he says.

“Rather, it was my personal circumstances: My daughter is badly disabled and her twin sister died," the 57-year-old continued. "And when I heard about MH17 it affected me greatly because so many children were killed. This is how I came into contact with [Bellingcat founder] Eliot [Higgins]."

Read more
https://www.rferl.org/a/from-stasi-t.../30240232.html

----------


## Klondyke

*Russia will transfer data on the MH17 case to Malaysian experts*
November 21, 2019 12:39

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, following talks with his Malaysian counterpart Sayfuddin Abdullah, said that Russia was ready to provide Malaysia with its data on the crash in the Donbass of a Malaysian Boeing that was flying on MH17.

“Malaysia, as a country directly involved in the MH17 flight, participated at some point in the work of the Joint Investigation Team. But, unfortunately, our accession to this process was belated. Secondly, we hope that independent evidence from those who have some kind of evidence, materials should be made public, ”said the Malaysian minister, answering a question from RT.

He added that in Malaysia, “they are ready to listen to all the people, all those who have any information regarding this disaster.” 

In turn, Lavrov said that while Malaysia did not participate in the Joint Investigative Group, and the remaining participants in the investigation concluded an agreement among themselves that "they will coordinate any information to the public among themselves, that is, including with Ukraine."

Lavrov noted that the record of talks by Ukrainian air traffic controllers, primary data from radars and data from satellites that the United States promised to submit has not yet been published. 

He also said that the Joint Investigative Group ignores information on the investigation, which was transmitted by the Russian side. According to him, Malaysia was not informed about what data was transmitted by Russia.

“Therefore, we invited our Malaysian friends to send relevant experts to us, to whom our experts will reproduce everything that they showed and transferred to the Netherlands for the Joint Investigation Group. I hope that this will help our Malaysian colleagues to be more informed than other members of the investigation team would like, ”he said. 

RT led a live broadcast of the press conference . 

https://russian.rt.com/world/news/68...malaiziya-mh17

----------


## misskit

Dutch prosecutors: Russia wants to thwart MH17 investigation


SCHIPHOL, Netherlands -- A Dutch prosecutor said Tuesday that there are “strong indications” Russia wants to undermine investigations into the downing of Malaysia Flight 17 and told judges at the trial of four suspects that many witnesses fear for their safety.


Prosecutor Thijs Berger made the statement on the second day of the trial of three Russians and a Ukrainian charged with the murder of all 298 passengers and crew killed when a missile shot down the Amsterdam-to-Kuala Lumpur flight on July 17, 2014. The suspects weren't present.


Prosecutors allege that a Russian Buk missile shot down the flight from an agricultural field in a region of eastern Ukraine controlled by pro-Moscow rebel forces. Russia denies any involvement in the downing.


Prosecutors revealed that one witness in their case is a Russian volunteer with a separatist rebel group who was close to a crossroads in eastern Ukraine near where a Buk missile was fired on the day flight MH17 was downed.


The witness, identified only as M58, said that people present at the launch site were “initially pleased because they were told that a military transport plane had been shot down. However, when the first people returned from the crash site they said that it was a civilian aircraft," prosecutor Dedy Woei-a-Tsoi said.

MORE Dutch prosecutors: Russia wants to thwart MH17 investigation - ABC News

----------


## Klondyke

*Ukraine did not provide primary data from radars on the MH17 disaster*


MOSCOW, Jun 9 - RIA News.  

Ukraine did not provide primary radar data on the crash of the Malaysian Boeing (flight MH17) in 2014, said Dutch prosecutor Theis Berger during a court hearing.

"Ukraine practically did not provide primary radar data. Ukraine explained to the Dutch Security Council that no primary radar data were recorded, since the radar was not working at that moment," the prosecutor said.

The MH17 crash trial began in the Netherlands on March 9, 2020. Four persons involved in it - Russians Girkin, Dubinsky, Pulatov and Ukrainian Kharchenko. Pulatov at trial is represented by an international group consisting of two Dutch and one Russian lawyer. The remaining suspects are tried in absentia.

Malaysian Boeing, flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur by flight MH17, crashed on July 17, 2014 near Donetsk. Onboard were 298 people, all of them died. Kiev accused the militias of the disaster, they said they did not have the means to bring down the aircraft at such a height.

The Joint Investigative Group (SSG), which, under the leadership of the Netherlands Prosecutor General’s Office without investigating Russia, is investigating the circumstances of the crash, previously presented interim results. The investigation claims that Boeing was shot down from the Buk anti-aircraft missile system , which belonged to the 53rd Russian anti-aircraft missile brigade from Kursk.

According to RIA Novosti, Deputy Prosecutor General of Russia Nikolai Vinnichenko, the Russian side handed over to the Netherlands not only Russian radar data, but also documentation indicating that the Buk air defense missile that hit the Boeing belonged to Ukraine, and it was launched from the territory controlled by Kiev, however, the investigators ignored this information. At the same time, on the first day of the court hearing, the prosecution acknowledged that it had received and is studying the data of the Russian prosecutor's office.

The Russian Foreign Ministry said that the SSG’s allegations of Russia's involvement in the crash of the Malaysian Boeing are unfounded and unfortunate, the investigation is biased and one-sided. President Vladimir Putin noted that Russia is not allowed to investigate the crash of the liner in eastern Ukraine, and Moscow can recognize the results of the investigation if it takes part in it fully. All missiles, the engine of which the Dutch commission for the investigation of the crash of MH17 demonstrated, were disposed of after 2011, the Russian Defense Ministry said. Russian presidential spokesman Dmitry Peskov has repeatedly stated that Moscow categorically rejects allegations of involvement in the crash of the Malaysian Boeing.

Украина не предоставила первичные данные с радаров по катастрофе MH17 - РИА Новости, 09.06.2020

----------


## harrybarracuda

*Trial in MH17 crash to start hearing evidence

BADHOEVEDORP, Netherlands: Dutch judges will on Monday start hearing evidence against three Russian suspects and a Ukrainian in the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 over war-torn Ukraine in 2014.

The trial formally began in March 2020 but has so far been dealing with legal arguments, mainly about the admissibility of evidence in the crash in which 298 passengers and crew were killed.

The four suspects -- Russian nationals Oleg Pulatov, Igor Girkin and Sergei Dubinsky, and Ukrainian citizen Leonid Kharchenko -- are all being tried in absentia. Only Pulatov has legal representation.

"The court will open the MH17 criminal trial proper and, through examining and discussing the content of the prosecution file, elucidate the key questions which it has already begun to address," the court said in a statement.

"Was flight MH17 shot down by a BUK missile? Was a BUK missile fired from an agricultural field near Pervomaiskyi? Did the accused play a role in this?" the statement added.

The Boeing 777 jet was travelling from Amsterdam's Schiphol airport to Kuala Lumpur when it was shot down over part of eastern Ukraine controlled by pro-Russian rebels.

An international investigation concluded that a BUK missile that had originally come from the Russian army's 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade based in the city of Kursk was responsible.

All four suspects are accused of being key figures among the separatist rebels battling Kiev.

The trial is being held in the Netherlands, in a secure courtroom near Schiphol airport, because it was the point of departure for the doomed plane, and because 196 of the victims were Dutch.

The court said that the "hearing on the merits" will begin Monday with general topics including the investigation by the examining magistrate, followed by three more days of discussion from Tuesday to Thursday.

The prosecution and defence will then have the chance to raise issues during hearings lasting until July 9.
Relatives of the victims will be able to address the court in September, it said.

The judges visited the shrapnel-pierced wreckage for the first time in May in what they described as an "emotionally loaded" day.

Torn shreds of the front of the plane have been reconstructed on a wire cage at Gilze-Rijen air base in the Netherlands.

"We realise that this visit to the reconstruction of MH17 as part of the official criminal process will be very emotionally loaded for relatives," presiding judge Hendrik Steenhuis said at the time.

"This is a reconstruction of an aircraft in which their loved ones were underway to a destination that they never reached because the aircraft crashed during the flight and all on board perished."

Pulatov, the only suspect to be represented at the trial by lawyers, said in a video played to the court in November that he had seen no sign of any missile.

Trial in MH17 crash to start hearing evidence
*

----------


## OhOh

*MH17 TRIAL – DUTCH JUDGE HENDRIK STEENHUIS DISCREDITS HIMSELF AND  THE TRIAL WITH FIRST MENTION IN COURT OF INADMISSIBLE AUTOPSY EVIDENCE  PROVING, NONETHELESS, NO RUSSIAN BUK MISSILE*

June 8, 2021 @ 10:42 pm

_"For the first time since the Dutch Government began its prosecution  of the Russian Government for the destruction of Malaysia Airlines  Flight MH17, and the killing of the  298 passengers and crew on board,  the court has heard what the presiding judge, Hendrik Steenhuis (lead  image), has described as autopsy and post-mortem evidence from the  bodies recovered from the aircraft crash scene in eastern Ukraine.   _ _For the first time, Steenhuis has read out a scripted version of what  he declares to be admissible evidence from the bodies, although the  trial of this evidence has only just begun._ 
_
And for the first time – without showing he has comprehended what he  has revealed —  Steenhuis confirms that only one piece of shrapnel  identifiable with the alleged murder weapon, a Russian-made BUK missile,  was discovered by the Dutch forensic teams, pathologists, policemen,  prosecutors, and investigating judges who have been working on this  evidence since the crash on July 17, 2014. If Steenhuis is telling the  truth about this one bow-tie shaped piece of shrapnel from a missile  warhead, another cube-shaped piece of shrapnel has disappeared from the  cockpit bodies, plus one additional bow-tie and a cube reportedly found  in the cockpit frame and photographed by the Dutch Safety Board in  October 2015. 
_
_This one piece of metal has been admitted in evidence by Steenhuis  without any chain of custody protecting it from the Ukrainian Security  Service (SBU) since the SBU supervised autopsies of the same bodies in  Kharkiv in July 2014, before sending them to The Netherlands. That is  one piece of metal out of 2,600 bow-tie shapes and another 2,600 cube  shapes in the BUK missile warhead Steenhuis has now ruled to have  committed the crime.
_
_For the Dutch judge this is beyond reasonable doubt._
_
Steenhuis commenced the second day of what he is calling the trial on  the merits of the Dutch indictments against three Russian officers and  one Ukrainian with a detailed summary of evidence he accepts in the  proceeding._ 
_
Anglo-American practice is the reverse. 

In a British or American  court of law, the judge presents his summary of the evidence he accepts  at the conclusion of the trial – after the evidence has been presented,  then tested by prosecutors and defence lawyers in direct and  cross-examination of witnesses, experts, and the accused._ 
_
In the MH17 trial yesterday, June 8, Steenhuis began with a 10-minute  recital of autopsy and post-mortem evidence collected, he says, from  the bodies of passengers and cockpit crew at a Dutch military bae after  they had been flown from the Ukraine.  

Steenhuis listed the autopsy and post-mortem technologies the Dutch  used, including the non-invasive CT scan and the X-ray. Invasive  dissection was also employed for selected bodies of the crew, according  to the judge. 
_
_At Min 42:16 Steenhuis makes the crucial admission that the bodies had been tampered with by the Ukrainian authorities._ 
_
According to Steenhuis, a number of bodies were subjected by the  Dutch to “inspection via closer invasive investigations inter alia with  those bodies that had had post-mortem examinations in Ukraine”.  Steenhuis did not say how many bodies these were; what their names were  and their places in the aircraft; what the Ukrainians had done in their  “post-mortem examinations”; and what the special Dutch police  purportedly guarding the bodies before and after the Ukrainian  “post-mortems” had done to prevent the introduction of metal and the  faking of forensic records. 
_
_    Liane Theurkauf has provided the only catalogue and review available  in print of all autopsy and post-mortem evidence in the MH17 case,  focusing particularly on the pilot, first officer and purser in the  cockpit, and two crew members, including the Team B pilot captain seated  in the first-class cabinet behind the cockpit.
__
On June 8 Steenhuis read out his ruling that at the Hilversum  military base “autopsy was [sic] performed on five members of the crew –  two captains, one first officer, and two members of the cabin crew”  [Min 44:38]. Steenhuis’s use of the singular tense was misleading. He  implied the Hilversum autopsy on the five crew was the first autopsy for  these crew members, and thus the only source of the evidence now  available to the court. This is false – Steenhuis either knows it to be  false, or is incapable of knowing what evidence from the bodies of the  crew is available.
_
_In Theuerkauf’s record,  a detailed log of body wounds for the  cockpit crew, including shrapnel evidence, was first prepared at the  Kalinin mortuary in Donetsk, which was run by officials of the Donetsk  People’s Republic (DPR), including the chief of the Donetsk morgue,  Dmitry Kalashnikov. Suspecting that the evidence of the cockpit crew  might be falsified later, this log has been preserved and also reported  publicly. It has been ignored by the Dutch prosecutors; by Steenhuis;   and also by the Dutch lawyers representing the Russian defendant in  court, Lieutenant Colonel (retired) Oleg Pulatov. Kalashnikov has not  been interviewed by the Dutch investigating judges, nor by the defence  lawyers. 
_
_After a team of Malaysian officials met with DPR officials, and Dutch  and other European  officials followed, the bodies were taken by train  out of the DPR and into Kiev-controlled territory. The bodies were then  unloaded;  removed from their body bags and identifying tags prepared by  the DPR;  and new procedures carried out by Ukrainian pathologists  under observation by Dutch and Australian special forces. X-rays and  other autopsy procedures took place before the bodies were sealed again.  A Kiev government spokesman announced:  “We have everything in Kharkiv, experts from international  organisations and from Ukraine. They have all the facilities ready for  all the forensic investigation and examination.”  
_
_Death certificates were signed by Ukrainian officials, and later  handed to the Dutch, some accompanying the bodies when they were flown  from Kharkiv to Hilversum; some later._ 
_Theuerkauf concluded: 

“There has been no mention in the MH17 trial of  the X-rays of the cockpit crew bodies taken at Kharkiv."

This detail is  crucial for two reasons. Either the X-ray pictures have been preserved  by the Ukrainians and Dutch, but they fail to show the characteristic  shrapnel of the alleged weapon for  the attack on the aircraft, and the  X-rays are being suppressed for that reason. Or else the X-ray evidence  is missing, and the chain of custody for the evidence of the cockpit  crew was broken at Kharkiv – a second break in the same chain. 

If the  first is the truth, the Dutch prosecutors have been lying about what the  evidence proves.”
_
_“If the second is the truth, the prosecution claims about the shrapnel evidence are legally inadmissible.”
_
_In his June 8 ruling Steenhuis admitted the inadmissible. He  concealed the chain of custody broken in Donetsk and  Kharkiv; and by  Kiev pathologists, Dutch and Australian police.  

Steenhuis also endorsed  evidence of one piece of bow-tie shrapnel from a warhead whose alleged  detonation released 2,599 more bow-tie pieces which have disappeared  entirely."_

Dances With Bears >> MH17 TRIAL – DUTCH JUDGE HENDRIK STEENHUIS DISCREDITS HIMSELF AND THE TRIAL WITH FIRST MENTION IN COURT OF INADMISSIBLE AUTOPSY EVIDENCE PROVING, NONETHELESS, NO RUSSIAN BUK MISSILE

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## harrybarracuda

Gosh, Russian kiss-arse blog tries to discredit trial.

What a fucking surprise.

I wonder how much he got paid for writing this shit or is he a salaried Russian employee?

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