#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Farming & Gardening In Thailand >  >  Buying another rice farm - drawbacks?

## Lobster

My wife's parents are not rice farmers, but they do own 12 rai of rice land which they rent out to the tune of a little over 100k a year.

Recently a neighboring farm has come up for sale - 14 rai for 800k Baht.

The bank wants 200k deposit and a yearly payment of 50k.

The dad says he thinks the land is good, and it would add another 120k to their annual income (minus the 50k to the bank)

Since i have no interest in supporting them "fully" when they are old and unable to work, I figure this is a pretty good way to ensure a stable income for the rest of their years.

Thoughts?

Naturally there are good and bad growing seaons, but if that is the renter's problem then...

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## shaggersback

Rent out at 100k per year for 12 rai ?

  Thats good money for not having to work it.
 My wife and I bought only 5 Rai for 200k last year and returns on that are about 30-40k per yield after labour , fertliser ,seed and pesticide. 
Three yields in a good year they say.
   So it would seem that at 100k rent it is is a good investment at 800k for more farm.
  If you have that  cash to spend and are feeling all jai deed up i could think of lots worse ways to spend it.
  Have a green.   :Smile:

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## somtamslap

> 12 rai of rice land which they rent out to the tune of a little over 100k a year.


 Don't know much about rice farming but I'd say thats damn good money as land is normally rented out for a third of what the growers make..
Be a tidy little investment for the inlaws.

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## Lobster

I don't know my ass from my elbow as far as rice farming goes, but I've been to their land and it seems to be pretty fertile.

Perhaps it is just in a good location?

Everything sounds great on paper. Wondering if anyone else is out there with a rented out rice farm on their hands?

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## johpam

For investing 200K and getting a return of 70 K (120k minus 50K) is very good. That is more than 30% interest and after 12 years you get 60%. Even if you have to pay for land and other taxes the return is great.
(BUY IT and put it in your wifes name and tell her the 70K will be a present to your parents-in-law)

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## Dan

I know sod all about farming but 120k a year on 800k is a 15% return, which seems amazingly high.

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## Lobster

> I know sod all about farming but 120k a year on 800k is a 15% return, which seems amazingly high.


 
This is why I'm asking for advice. There _has_ to be a catch. (not with the inlaws, they are quite solid and trustworthy) otherwise why shouldn't we pick up 14 rai EVERY year and retire as rice land barons?

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## BillyBobThai

I live in Phichit provience and my wifw tells me that land here rents for about 
500 baht per rai a yaer.  Sounds like somebody is trying to blow smoke up your ass.  Before investing money, ask plenty of questions.

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## BillyBobThai

Lobster

There is a person on another Thai forum, where they like to censor peoples comments, who is an American college trained farmer who has farmed here in Thailand for the last 20 yr as a dairy farmer.  If there is any one who can honestly answer this question, he is the one. He goes by the name of Maizefarmer.  PM me if you would like details.

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## Lobster

> I live in Phichit provience and my wife tells me that land here rents for about 
> 500 baht per rai a yaer. Sounds like somebody is trying to blow smoke up your ass. Before investing money, ask plenty of questions.


 
If rai rented for 500b a year it would take 114 years to pay back the purchase price of each rai (57k). 


Not to mention, 500b a rai..for a year??? You could rent that to a backpacker to set up a tent for 5000b a year easy.

Maybe Chiang Rai is differently priced than Phichit, but i can't imagine it is twenty fold.

Questions have been asked...the 100k has been coming in steadly for the last 5 years so... what am I supposed to think?

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## BillyBobThai

Lobster

I am not one who wants to see it rain on your parade, but,  dark clouds are forming.  As Dan pointed out in another post, you are talking about a 15% return on your investment each year.  Sounds like Barney Madoff is around there somewhere.  All joking aside,  I can not see rice farmers paying 8000+ per rai per year.  From what I have read, at that price they would be in the hole.  
Contact Maizefarmer, he will be happy to answer in detail what the truth is.

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## Michael

Rubber plantations down here currently generate about 600 baht per rai ( after subtracting 50% cutter's costs ) But you try buying any land. No-one sells. And then it is at minimum 150,000 b per rai. If you can find it. That was from my brother-in-law because he had an accident with one of his buses which wasn't covered by insurance.

If you are secure with your wife, buy land.

It isn't a direct return, but an investment. It won't go anywhere.

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## crazy dog

> My wife's parents are not rice farmers, but they do own 12 rai of rice land which they rent out to the tune of a little over 100k a year.


Impossible to make a profit growing anything (legal) on this amount of land renting at that price. !0k rent would be more like it, growing rice on 12 rai would bring in less than half this rental amount in profit, maybe they are not in Issan and can grow two crops a year? even them they would be hard pressed to make anything after the rent was paid.

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## Lobster

After talking to my wife again I got a clearer picture of what is actually going on.


The parents do NOT rent the land, what they do is let someone else farm it in exchange for 50% of the crop.

The dad says that if he does the whole thing himself he can make 100k a year (two seasons) - but the family business is more profitable, so he decides to let someone else do the farming and take half instead.

I'm going to estimate that he is getting 30-40k a year after water and chemical costs.

Not the gold mine that I had originally envisioned!


So...with these figures we would actually be losing 10-20k a year on the new land until the bank is paid back.


I still think it is a pretty decent thing to do though. A rai that costs 60k now will probably be 100k+ in 10 years...

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## Carnwadrick

> The bank wants 200k deposit and a yearly payment of 50k.


Have you talked with the bank yourself or just believing someone elses opinion? Banks are not in the habit of making loans without knowing all the facts, market conditions and return on investments etc.

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## Lobster

> Originally Posted by Lobster
> 
> The bank wants 200k deposit and a yearly payment of 50k.
> 
> 
> Have you talked with the bank yourself or just believing someone elses opinion? Banks are not in the habit of making loans without knowing all the facts, market conditions and return on investments etc.


 
At this stage I am just believing what I am hearing.


However, I do know that the new land is right next to a main road and a water source, so I would imagine the bank would think it was a good idea.

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## hillbilly

I am in the same boat as shaggersback. Here is what 23 rai look like. Now I have to admit I know very little about rice farming. But as retirement is nearing I am learning.  :Smile:

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## ricefarmer

y'all explain what 23 rai is to Arkansas rice farmer in acres.  Enjoyed the thread, sounds like I need to buy land in Thailand.

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## isanmick

Aprox. 1,600sq m = 1 rai.

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## jamescollister

> Aprox. 1,600sq m = 1 rai.


As he is from the States probably no idea about meters. 2 and1/2 Rai 1 acre. Jim

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## ricefarmer

I was just trying to relate that to my rice acres here in Arkansas. I farm 2050 acres of long and medium grain in the se corner of Arkansas.

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## jamescollister

> I was just trying to relate that to my rice acres here in Arkansas. I farm 2050 acres of long and medium grain in the se corner of Arkansas.


 You must get a big laugh out of these people trying to make money on 5 or 10 acres. Jim

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## Norton

> At this stage I am just believing what I am hearing.


Never a good idea. We farm 50 rai in Issan.

Yield per rai averages 350kg. We only do one crop per year as no irrigation available in dry season. Yield in central and north regions higher. 450 - 500 kg per rai.

Sell price about 12 baht (unmilled) per kilo. So one rai brings in 4,200 baht before costs. 

Cost vary but include, fertilizer, plowing and harvesting.

Fertilizer - 800 baht per rai
Tractor rental for plowing - 500 baht per rai
Harvestor rental - 500 baht per rai
Plus some incidental costs not included.

Total cost - 1,800 per rai.
Sell price - 4,200
Margin - 2400

50% share - 1200 per rai.

If you buy additional 14 rai then, about 16,800 per crop additional income for the in laws.

So some rough numbers for you to consider.

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## Norton

> You must get a big laugh out of these people trying to make money on 5 or 10 acres.


Indeed. Rice farming in Thailand is not going to bring riches.

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## ricefarmer

Rice farming isn't going to bring riches anywhere I don't think. As far as the farm size goes, that all relates back to the differences in production practices. I wish I didn't have to farm that much, I'd get to see my kids more. 

How does a baht relate to the dollar?

I'll give u some of my numbers and I'll convert when I can. 

Average yield per acre - 8000 pounds or 3628.7 kg. We have cut 10000 before. 

Sell price yesterday for rough - 11 cents per pound $4.95 per 45 pounds or bushel

Urea fertilizer. 450 dollars per ton. Around 120 dollars an acre for total N. 

Hybrid clearfield seed XL 729 around 5 dollars per pound. 125 dollars per acre

Water can vary. Anywhere from 50 to 200 dollars per acre. 

We paid 185,000 dollars for new tractor last year

Buying a combine this year over 250,000 dollars

There are labor, flying, chemicals and a bunch of other stuff in there too. Not to mention a huge debt load so I don't have a whole lot of extra money. I just enjoy farming rice. 

We also farm 3000 acres of soybeans 500 acres of corn 500 acres of Milo and some wheat.

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## Rural Surin

> I live in Phichit provience and my wifw tells me that land here rents for about 
> 500 baht per rai a yaer.  Sounds like somebody is trying to blow smoke up your ass.  Before investing money, ask plenty of questions.


I'm truly surprised that no one has really questioned these figures. I'd be suspicious. Best he scout around the immediate region and compare...

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## MakingALife

> Originally Posted by Lobster
> 
> At this stage I am just believing what I am hearing.
> 
> 
> Never a good idea. We farm 50 rai in Issan.
> 
> Yield per rai averages 350kg. We only do one crop per year as no irrigation available in dry season. Yield in central and north regions higher. 450 - 500 kg per rai.
> 
> ...


]

Norton,

Your approximate numbers look to be pretty real world to me.  Last season was - the second year - we are cropping rice.  I had made some numerical errors in an earlier post - on an other thread.  This years yeild was about 560 Kg / Rai.  Planted in 6 large paddies that are around 22 to 23 Rai - after re-measuring.  But we have a pond and pump watered during the season to keep the crop from experiencing any drought stress - as can happen with some dry spells during the wet season. 

A promise was made by the local Taugasar looking for farmers to make crop pledges (prior to harvest), and willing promise to buy all that was pledged at 20 B/ kg.  This was to get "seed"rice to be resold to farmers who lost all their seed, due to the heavy floods that impacted a lot of Thailand.   

That would have been a great price,  but That promise never materialized - so we hope to market the rice after Songhran.  We may get lucky for a small price rise, due to complications in Japan that may impact their level of rice imports as the Nuclear situation sorts out and land contamination issues are properly mapped there.  We are sitting on about 11.5 M Tons.

We have ventured to try 2nd crop on two of the larger paddies, and have exhausted most of our pond water for that purpose.   After the pumping costs are removed - It looks to be a very low profit or break even venture.  So next year we will likely diversify and do something different on the 6 paddies outside of the main season. 

The numbers by the OP seem unrealistic, based on our own experience.   We were fortunate to have gotten a piece of land (that measured out to 43 Rai for just over 500 KB.) and located .7 Km from the house.   But the land required a lot of work to make it fit and get a pond in.    

It also seems like the price seems low - for good rice land, on a major highway, with irrigation access as well.   Those kind of parcels - do not come up for sale often,  not in that price range.   We spent a year looking for land and did not see any "ready" fit parcel with all those qualities - without fat price tags involved. 

What do you do with your rice land in the dry season?

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## ozthai

Can anyone tell me the value of a Rice farm if I were to sell it? I have 27 Rai in Kong district, Korat about 140 k/m North of Nakon Ratchasima and about the same South of Kon Kaen, right next to a small village. It is situated at the end of a concrete road about 150 metres from the village. It is bordered by the main Klong. I was offered $20,000.00 USD but that seemed a little cheap as I paid nearly that much for it 10 years ago. It has a title which has been oficially surveyed by the government with surveyor marks. I think it is called a channote title. Excuse my ignorance but I have left most of this to my Thai wife. I asked the local bank but they said they could not help me. Can one get an official valuation of the properties' worth? Any help would be apreciated

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## jamescollister

> Can anyone tell me the value of a Rice farm if I were to sell it? I have 27 Rai in Kong district, Korat about 140 k/m North of Nakon Ratchasima and about the same South of Kon Kaen, right next to a small village. It is situated at the end of a concrete road about 150 metres from the village. It is bordered by the main Klong. I was offered $20,000.00 USD but that seemed a little cheap as I paid nearly that much for it 10 years ago. It has a title which has been oficially surveyed by the government with surveyor marks. I think it is called a channote title. Excuse my ignorance but I have left most of this to my Thai wife. I asked the local bank but they said they could not help me. Can one get an official valuation of the properties' worth? Any help would be apreciated


Try the tax office or land office, they will charge transfer and land sale tax, stamp duty or what ever they call it. They will assest the value and tax it at their rate even if you sell for less. That is of course ,  if you paid the taxes in the first place. Thais hate tax and more often than not get the village head or sub district Governer to do a reciept for the sale. Then you own the land, but according to the land office the original owner is still on the title. That is if it really has charnote, Thais call any land with a piece of paper charnote. The little pegs only mean that the land has been surveyed. Jim

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## hillbilly

> Can anyone tell me the value of a Rice farm if I were to sell it? I have 27 Rai in Kong district, Korat..


How long is a piece of string? Some great advice has already been given. The only other suggestion that I might add is to visit the area and inquire what other rice farms are bringing.

Good luck and please let us know what happens.

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## Norton

> What do you do with your rice land in the dry season?


Mostly watch it turn brown. Trying a bit of tobacco this year to see how it does. Will let you know if worth the effort.

Sorry for late reply. Missed your question.

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## ozthai

Thanks for your help guys but i am not currently in Thailand so I cannot go to the land office. I have tried phone calls but that has only caused frustration. Has anyone else bought or sold a farm in that general area half way between Nakon Ratchasima and Kon Kaen?

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## hillbilly

Once again your best bet is to come to Thailand with your wife and ask around. Doing land deals concerning Thailand rice farms over the internet is risky at best. What I mean by this is that regardless of any official quote (which in reality there is none) prices can vary greatly.

Sorry, I realize that this is not what you wanted to hear, but in my experience this is the way to go.

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## grasshopper

Surely there are real estate agents who deal in this sort of thing. Look up rice and other farms for sale in Thailand on the net, take a few names and numbers of the agents offering and call them. Dont take advice from just one, take a few and suss it out from there.

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## MakingALife

> Originally Posted by MakingALife
> 
> What do you do with your rice land in the dry season?
> 
> 
> Mostly watch it turn brown. Trying a bit of tobacco this year to see how it does. Will let you know if worth the effort.
> 
> Sorry for late reply. Missed your question.


 Hey Norton,  No problem about any late reply.  I have been away from the board for a while, and have just checked in...  After selling a big block of last seasons Jasmine (Homily) crop.  

My posting (# 27) was all wet as far as yeild went.  It was based on what every said the bags were holding when the rice was bagged up after processing the rice from the plant.    My original yeild was 225 bags. (told they were 50 Kg bags).   Selling off 140 bags the other day,  after truck weights before and after the bags only held about 36 Kg.   Thus my yeild for the fields was closer to 340 Kg / Rai.... Not the 560 Kg I has assumed,  based on many folks involved in the processing to seperate the rice out,  saying the bags were 50 Kg.   Even the wife agreed they were 50 Kg bags...

At any rate.  This changes that yeild from 11. 5 MTons to 8 metric tons.  Its a shock to reset the actual crop recovery to that value, with 11.5 metric tons was the expected yeild.  

About three weeks,  before this sale happened..... We are embarking on a strategy change for some of our field crops.   We are entering into a contract fish farm arrangement with a very large conglomerate food producer.    We also sunk (2) deep wells on our farm in April 2011.  And recently upgraded the size of our water storage pond,  so we have the water resources in place to follow through on the (10) fish ponds going in.   

The conglomerate is the technology partner as well, and provides all the training and mentoring, vet inspections, and program manager for this endeavor.   My scheduling looks to be loading fish beginning in late August, spread out over ponds grouped in cycles,  3, 3, 2, and 2, staggered a week apart.  This will spread out the harvests.  We have people who will assist as needed and have bought in (3) Cambodia workers who we just got all the labor documents completed for.   

I will let you know how this alternative works out, over time.   How did your tobacco work out ??

The original poster was searching for feed back on rice cropping and determining land values.    As I said before, Your numbers seemed to be good for Issan, now I am finding my yeild number matches yours as well.    

I remain hopeful that the rice price, receives good supports moving forward in time, for the sake of many farmers in the game,  and that Thailand doesnt end up in a price war with Vietnam or Cambodian production pricing on rice.   

As far as land valuations for the OP.   I think 10 to 12,000 Bhat is the typical pricing for rural unimproved land,  if and when it can be found.   Closer to larger cities, or on paved roads, and near water sources the pricing can really accelerate upward from those values.    Our land was purchased from a land speculator who collected the pieces, in collecting debts owed against the land.  He held the property for about a decade, and leased out the bottom land to folks who cropped rice there.   Looking at the stack of old document that came with the land...  He made back about 4 times his investment,  because he bought the property at distressed pricing (taking it when debt wasnt paid).   The guy was Thai Chinese and at one time was holding a lot of blocks in the small town.   In 2007 he started rolling out of them, and we were lucky to have found the parcel we purchased (around 45 Rai, although the documents said 53, it was short on the walking survey of the boundaries done at property transfer.     I have talked to folks who paid 3 x the raw land price we paid, and others (close to Korat) who paid 8 times the land price for a small 2 rai farm plot.   As many in real estate say..  Price is based on location...

All the best.   ::chitown::  ::chitown::  ::chitown::

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## who

> y'all explain what 23 rai is to Arkansas rice farmer in acres.  Enjoyed the thread, sounds like I need to buy land in Thailand.


.
---- a rai is 40% of an acre ----
.
and no you don't want to buy land in Thailand as an INVESTMENT.  Like elsewhere in the world, the return on farmland is not good.  Including Alabama.
.

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## who

> Can anyone tell me the value of a Rice farm if I were to sell it? I have 27 Rai in Kong district, Korat about 140 k/m North of Nakon Ratchasima and about the same South of Kon Kaen, right next to a small village. It is situated at the end of a concrete road about 150 metres from the village. It is bordered by the main Klong. I was offered $20,000.00 USD but that seemed a little cheap as I paid nearly that much for it 10 years ago. It has a title which has been oficially surveyed by the government with surveyor marks. I think it is called a channote title. Excuse my ignorance but I have left most of this to my Thai wife. I asked the local bank but they said they could not help me. Can one get an official valuation of the properties' worth? Any help would be apreciated


.
---- 2 or 3 years ago I bought 25 rai of good rice land outside of dan khun todt for 800,000 baht.  It was considered a good buy at the time.
.

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## rickschoppers

Ricefarmer, if I am not mistaken, there are different grades of rice. I do not think the rice you are growing is the same they are growing in Thailand. Prices vary according to those grades from what my Thai lady tells me.If we have any southeast asia rice experts in the crowd, am I wrong or am I right?

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## MakingALife

> Originally Posted by ozthai
> 
> 
> Can anyone tell me the value of a Rice farm if I were to sell it? I have 27 Rai in Kong district, Korat about 140 k/m North of Nakon Ratchasima and about the same South of Kon Kaen, right next to a small village. It is situated at the end of a concrete road about 150 metres from the village. It is bordered by the main Klong. I was offered $20,000.00 USD but that seemed a little cheap as I paid nearly that much for it 10 years ago. It has a title which has been oficially surveyed by the government with surveyor marks. I think it is called a channote title. Excuse my ignorance but I have left most of this to my Thai wife. I asked the local bank but they said they could not help me. Can one get an official valuation of the properties' worth? Any help would be apreciated
> 
> 
> .
> ---- 2 or 3 years ago I bought 25 rai of good rice land outside of dan khun todt for 800,000 baht.  It was considered a good buy at the time.
> .


Pricing is a difficult call.  I will interject that the parcel we purchased was supposed to be 53 Rai,  but as we walked the property line with the mayor, the selling owner, and adjacent land owners,  It appeared to be less.   The correct size was around 43 or 44 Rai.   We have now been waiting 1.5 years for the land office surveyors to survey the property.   We could have obtained the updated property deed, if all adjacent owners appeared and signed off that the property lines (as shown on the old documents) were correct.  But some owners live 300 Km away so our path to a the new style land document can only be done by completing a survey.   

You have that already in hand,  so your property is ahead of the curve by being surveyed and certified on record.   To me the price of 20,000 seems cheap.     We paid the USD equivalent of about 17,000 USD for our piece that 43 Rai piece which is  .7 Km outside a small village.    This land only had about 8 Rai of what I would call bottom land that was suitable for rice.   The balance had too much slope to be feasible for rice.   One portion was 15 to 18 meters higher and was a jungle...

My guess at valuation, being near a village and concrete road, and all usable as rice land (if that assumption is correct)...  It would be capable of generating 150,000 to 200,000 in rice revenues before expenses, or close to 5,000 USD per year.  
My guess is that the land should be worth 6 to 8 times its earning potential.   This may seem expensive to some, but Thailand Ag land has very low carrying costs for taxation, or any other costs.  So anyone who buys it, will recover their investment within a decade.   My guess would be a fair value in the range of 1,200,000 to 1,600,000 Bhat.  The difficulty is that this amount is a lot of money for anyone local to consider.   

As an example the parcel we paid 17,000 USD, cost the former owner about 1/4 that price,  but he owned it for about 10 years and loan sharked local people to took their land, when they could not pay.    At one time he owned 50 parcels around this small hamlet, and it took him about 4 years to liquidate those holding.   Almost all the buyers,  had family who worked outside Thailand to have the cash ability to make those purchases.

So your challenge is to find a buyer with the green to sell it for a reasonable valued price, approaching double what your paid,  or you price it at the offer provided and recover your investment.  So your time line and overall comfort in waiting will drive your decision.    My suggestion is to hold and sell for a fair value.

In my town, even small parcels with very traditional economy built homes, are out there with 1 M pricing,  because locals tell themselves the land and village location will command this price.  I dont really agree with that analysis.   People with the financial ability to make a 1 M Bhat purchase are not going to flock to a small backwater village in Issan..

good luck and make the call that fits your needs best.   Recycling your money invested as well is a good call, as 20 K can be harnesses for a lot of things in TL as well...

 :bananaman:

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## mikeR

Nice thread this,

Having some cash saved up for the future, I am speculating using them on some land in Surin.

Fertilizer (800) and harvesting prices (500) mentioned earlier in this post seems to still be about right according to my mother in law, but she is saying they harvest bestween 700 and 1000 kg per rai (selling weight).

Does that seem right?

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## jamescollister

> Nice thread this,
> 
> Having some cash saved up for the future, I am speculating using them on some land in Surin.
> 
> Fertilizer (800) and harvesting prices (500) mentioned earlier in this post seems to still be about right according to my mother in law, but she is saying they harvest bestween 700 and 1000 kg per rai (selling weight).
> 
> Does that seem right?


If you live here an idea, if not forget about it. You can't be an absentee farmer, not the way it works. Jim

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## Prem

[quote=Lobster;1124115]My wife's parents are not rice farmers, but they do own 12 rai of rice land which they rent out to the tune of a little over 100k a year.
 ======================
Most farming areas in Thailand would go for max 36,000 THB/year for 12 rai. 
They must grow very special rice, for that kind of rent there is no profit to make with regular rice.

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## crepitas

> Originally Posted by mikeR
> 
> 
> Nice thread this,
> 
> Having some cash saved up for the future, I am speculating using them on some land in Surin.
> 
> Fertilizer (800) and harvesting prices (500) mentioned earlier in this post seems to still be about right according to my mother in law, but she is saying they harvest bestween 700 and 1000 kg per rai (selling weight).
> 
> ...


555 ..guess it's the Walter Mitty in all of us, still I guess if nobody ever did seemingly stupid,irrational stuff be a bit of a dull world.
Seems as if farming is the same category as _buy a beach bar_ et al .... ie loads of money coming in, pour a few drinks, free beer, loads of women,living in paradise & voila heaven on earth.
Ex  dabbled in restaurants,bars and retail stores heavily subsidised by my career. Now I've somehow become a _ euphemistic_ rubber farmer by default...okay it has and continues to pay for itself..pretty nice life style although a bit boring at times....not sure would have done it if I had gone into a an analysis  paralysis mode. In hindsight would/should have I done it? Will never know.......

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## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by mikeR
> ...


Nothing ventured nothing gained, I live on rubber money, nothing else. I took the chance, but it's an all or nothing game farming. If you just want to play absentee farmer, buy shares in a farming company. Jim

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## Boon Mee

> Ricefarmer, if I am not mistaken, *there are different grades of rice*. I do not think the rice you are growing is the same they are growing in Thailand. Prices vary according to those grades from what my Thai lady tells me.If we have any southeast asia rice experts in the crowd, am I wrong or am I right?


Indeed there are and the stuff they grow here in the province of Suphanburi usually ends up in Ethopia or some poverty-stricken country as it's an inferior grain.

The wife was at Big C one day mulling over all the different varieties of rice for sale and the rice gal suggested a particular Jasmine Rice from Issan - like around Surin/Buriram/Roiet/Si Sa Ket etc since that variety is the best Thailand can grow.  This gal said she wouldn't feed Suphan rice to her dogs! :rofl: 

Having said all that though some of these farmers around me do make a tidy income but it's real hard work.

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## mikeR

First of all I just want to look at the numbers, and I was abit puzzled that this thread mentioned significantly lower outcome than my family-in-law supposedly has. I wonder if there are some misunderstandings here.

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## jamescollister

> First of all I just want to look at the numbers, and I was abit puzzled that this thread mentioned significantly lower outcome than my family-in-law supposedly has. I wonder if there are some misunderstandings here.


Don't think you will find any Thai farm or small business that is not making money, according to the owners. Same same farang bars etc all money winners. 
Ask to see the sales dockets for the last few crops and do the numbers from there.
Very few rich small time rice farmers, your money and up to you if you want to play .Jim

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## IsaanAussie

OK my numbers on average over the last four years of rice growing. 13 Rai each year. Net of all costs 65 to 79,000 baht retained currency. Fact!

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## jamescollister

> OK my numbers on average over the last four years of rice growing. 13 Rai each year. Net of all costs 65 to 79,000 baht retained currency. Fact!


And you are not only the best farmer I know, but as honest as you can get. 
Doing things out here are harder than most think. It takes a lot off dedication and sometimes hard work. Not for must, better to buy shares.

Will try and give you a call tomorrow AI . Jim

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## mikeR

> Net of all costs 65 to 79,000


Two crops?

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## sranchito

> y'all explain what 23 rai is to Arkansas rice farmer in acres.  Enjoyed the thread, sounds like I need to buy land in Thailand.


2.5 rai to the acre.

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## poorfalang

> Nice thread this,
> 
> Having some cash saved up for the future, I am speculating using them on some land in Surin.
> 
> Fertilizer (800) and harvesting prices (500) mentioned earlier in this post seems to still be about right according to my mother in law, but she is saying they harvest bestween 700 and 1000 kg per rai (selling weight).
> 
> Does that seem right?


ask them how many kilos in a ton and you see what they are talking about,

it can vary so much, do they do (nam na) do they throw the seed and plough the latter will give a smaller harvest,
but 700-1000 per rai
rubbish

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## sranchito

One ton per rai is about right.  We normally get about 3 ton to the acre.

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## Cobragold

> Originally Posted by rickschoppers
> 
> 
> Ricefarmer, if I am not mistaken, *there are different grades of rice*. I do not think the rice you are growing is the same they are growing in Thailand. Prices vary according to those grades from what my Thai lady tells me.If we have any southeast asia rice experts in the crowd, am I wrong or am I right?
> 
> 
> Indeed there are and the stuff they grow here in the province of Suphanburi usually ends up in Ethopia or some poverty-stricken country as it's an inferior grain.
> 
> The wife was at Big C one day mulling over all the different varieties of rice for sale and the rice gal suggested a particular Jasmine Rice from Issan - like around Surin/Buriram/Roiet/Si Sa Ket etc since that variety is the best Thailand can grow.  This gal said she wouldn't feed Suphan rice to her dogs!
> ...


Yes there are different grades of Thai rice, if you grow the cheaper grade you get less. Top grade Thai rice fetches around $2.50 per kilo in the richer asian rice eating countries, it is called Thai Hor Mali rice. If you can grow the Indian brasmati veriety you can get up to $3.50 per kilo. So if you do this for a living it makes more sense to grow the type that will make the most money.

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## rickschoppers

^
Makes sense, but I would think the higher grade rice requires a particular soil and nutrients or else everyone would only grow the high priced rice.

One thing I don't see discussed here is the fact that if you grow rice, you should not have to buy any from the store each year and is a savings. When I was thinking about buying some rice land, I was think more about supplying the family with their staple and less about profit. 

My BIL went in with a couple of other families and grew rice a few years. He needed my truck to haul the rice and paid me in about 10 bags. It lasted quite awhile and fed the family for months. Saved me some cash at the grocery store.

Has anyone calculated how much they spend on rice each year for your Thai family?

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## jamescollister

> ^
> Makes sense, but I would think the higher grade rice requires a particular soil and nutrients or else everyone would only grow the high priced rice.
> 
> One thing I don't see discussed here is the fact that if you grow rice, you should not have to buy any from the store each year and is a savings. When I was thinking about buying some rice land, I was think more about supplying the family with their staple and less about profit. 
> 
> My BIL went in with a couple of other families and grew rice a few years. He needed my truck to haul the rice and paid me in about 10 bags. It lasted quite awhile and fed the family for months. Saved me some cash at the grocery store.
> 
> Has anyone calculated how much they spend on rice each year for your Thai family?


Securing your rice supply can save a lot of money over the year, up until a few years ago never had to buy rice. Loaning the pick up truck, iron water buffalo and a few bags of fertilizer gave us a cut of the harvest from extended family.
Things have changed, lots of tractors and trucks around, so now make a deal with one of the cousins to buy direct at harvest price. Also told the family who live with us, FIL, MIL, BIL and his wife and 2 kids, it's a 1/3 deal, you pay or I will buy potatoes. They can afford to pay as they can afford the payments on new cars. Jim

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## IsaanAussie

This thread has intrigued me. It appears that little is known about rice farming Thai style as opposed to elsewhere. Here it has been more cultural than farming for profit. Rice in Isaan is a sign of status, your crop feeds you, supplies your seed and is exchanged to buy necessities. It is life's staple not just food. The straw feeds your animals and the animals fertilise the rice. The extended family works together to plant and harvest. The sheaths are stacked and dried, the rice threshed, bagged and stored in the small rice bahn. 
But that is all changing very quickly is rainfed Isaan. The driving factor is labour shortage. That has two effects, firstly forces mechanisation, secondly increases the cost of harvesting by hand in those paddies where machines cannot work. The harvestors started off filling bags with rice which then had to be spread out and sun dried before it rotted. Again a labour issue and one that had to be done quickly. The cost of spreading and drying wet rice makes it only just worth the effort with the alternative being to sell it "wet" straight from the field to the rice merchants at a baht or so less a kilogram. The merchants would then dry and sell the rice. The harvestors are now fitted with bulk tanks which are emptied straight into waiting trailers. This saves two bag fillers on the machine and a team of guys to hump the sacks out of the paddy.
Going right back to the start, most people hire the tractor to prepare the ground and employ a team to spread the seed with the tractor ploughing it in. Another few guys spread the two applications of fertiliser at a price. Then the harvest.
The future for rice farming here is to use a fully equipped contractor who has all the machines needed to farm the rice with minimal labour. You supply the land, he does the rest. We will see seedling planting machines and airblowers used to spread fertiliser. Anything to reduce the labour cost.
More machines has meant increased competition and has reduced costs, whereas farming labour continues to get more expensive and harder to find both numerically or in terms of skill. 
Remember this though if you see opportunities here to invest in the new way. It has been done, it has all been done before by people seeing a quick buck. But apart from the few very early adopters, no-one has or will make constant profits if at all.
The rice prices are set and the inputs are getting more expensive. Currently a net profit after costs of 4,500 baht per rai is as good as you will get as a grower. If you are thinking about a harvestor, then regardless of how hard you run it, the season is at best 6 to 8 weeks per year and assume the BS talked about rai cut per day without breakdown or bogging or.... you may cut 20 rai per day. So say 50 days running or 1,000 rai per year returning 800 baht per rai and the sales guy has you believing your million baht investment will return 800,000 per year. Bullshit!
IMHO and from personal observation, that is more like 400 to 500 rai maximum and the damage to the machine will limit its useful life to a few years. 
I will say it again to stress the point. Rice farming in Isaan returns a maximum of 4,500 baht per rai per annum if you sell the entire crop at the right moisture content. That is all there is regardless of what you invest! 
Of course if you don't sell but store it, then a lot will be given again, eaten by mice, and more than you can imagine eaten by the family, ducks, chickens and dogs. The midnight shoppers of the family will sell pickup's full to square debts and buy whiskey. You have to hold next years seed back, if you can. There won't be much left, it will be old season rice and possibly full of mouse shit anyway so will sell for less if at all.
Welcome to Rice Farming Utopia!

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## Nark

> Can anyone tell me the value of a Rice farm if I were to sell it? I have 27 Rai in Kong district, Korat about 140 k/m North of Nakon Ratchasima and about the same South of Kon Kaen, right next to a small village. It is situated at the end of a concrete road about 150 metres from the village. It is bordered by the main Klong. I was offered $20,000.00 USD but that seemed a little cheap as I paid nearly that much for it 10 years ago. It has a title which has been oficially surveyed by the government with surveyor marks. I think it is called a channote title. Excuse my ignorance but I have left most of this to my Thai wife. I asked the local bank but they said they could not help me. Can one get an official valuation of the properties' worth? Any help would be apreciated



Is your land still available? We will go up to Nakorn Ratchasima next week for family visit and like to scope out any available land while up there. Sorry can't PM you directly since I'm new here. Thank you.

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## thailazer

Lobster.... The land sounds cheap enough, but like the other posters have said, do your due diligence on the figures you are being told.    Getting 8300 baht a rai up here for a year's rental would be on the ultra high side.    Still doesn't sound like a lot of risk for a future investment.

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## Pragmatic

> Can one get an official valuation of the properties' worth?


Any bank would gladly loan you money if the land has 'Chanote' title. To give you that loan, on producing the papers, they will gladly give you a valuation. 'Chanote' titled land is as good as money in the bank.

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## donald36

All the figures on growing are very interesting but are all historic,what about the future ?
The rice market is completely screwed and the government suggest they will take 7 years to pay off the accumulated losses ,one thing for sure is there will be no huge populist handouts for rice farmers or for that matter any other subsidised farm produce --the Prime Minister was recently laughing at the rubber farmers trying to get subsidies by suggesting maybe they could sell all this excess rubber on Mars !
Having listened to my Thai relatives over the years i am amazed at the optimism and lack of real facts when it comes to growing/rearing anything ,lets face it farming was any good they wouldnt be dirt poor 
For anyones interest my wife is currently renting out poorish Cassava land for 300 baht a rai and hoping to get 500 baht a rai for some better land which a base when considering what the capital value of land  is

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## piwanoi

> All the figures on growing are very interesting but are all historic,what about the future ?
> The rice market is completely screwed and the government suggest they will take 7 years to pay off the accumulated losses ,one thing for sure is there will be no huge populist handouts for rice farmers or for that matter any other subsidised farm produce --the Prime Minister was recently laughing at the rubber farmers trying to get subsidies by suggesting maybe they could sell all this excess rubber on Mars !
> Having listened to my Thai relatives over the years i am amazed at the optimism and lack of real facts when it comes to growing/rearing anything ,lets face it farming was any good they wouldnt be dirt poor 
> For anyones interest my wife is currently renting out poorish Cassava land for 300 baht a rai and hoping to get 500 baht a rai for some better land which a base when considering what the capital value of land  is


Don , I suppose some may think you are some what of a pessimist , personally I think being a realist is nearer the mark ,this article which I posted in the other thread about Rice ,says it all ,the days of big bale outs for the Thai farmer are long gone ,  Rice farmers must help themselves | Bangkok Post: opinion

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## Hoops

Guys, this is an old thread.  Did the OP get sucked in to buy the land?

"12 rai of rice land which they rent out to the tune of a little over 100k a year."

You wouldn't get a quarter of that today!  Or back then.

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## piwanoi

^Hoop By "sucked in" I presume you mean Conned ?

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## fishlocker

I was going to reply with a long story about my fathers brothers living in North Dakota having being born of immigrants from the east. One uncle had many children to help farm the land.Looked to me he did not do too well.The other Uncle invested in the articulating tractors (DEER, CASE) Had forever expanded with more "sections" as others failed in farming.This was in the 1970's.How was land bought at a price worth paying at the time?Desperation? Winners,losers? Machines making the vast amount of land manageable? Can one establish sound security on borrowed money?Can one incorporate into land "ownership"in THAILAND? I personally would not invest in something (anything) that I could not afford to loose.Not too be too much of an ass but if it were me I might sell or rent my land out and travel in the cool months.  :ourrules:

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