#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Thailand and Asia News >  >  > World News >  >  Unarmed black teenager was shot by neighbourhood watch volunteer

## gwargamel

The US justice department has begun an investigation into the fatal shooting of an unarmed black teenager in Florida by a neighbourhood watch captain.

The announcement came after a day of protests calling for the arrest of the Florida volunteer, George Zimmerman.

Zimmerman, 28, claims he shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin last month in self-defence during a confrontation in a gated community in Sanford, Florida. 

Zimmerman spotted Martin as he was patrolling his neighbourhood on a rainy evening last month and called the police emergency dispatcher to report a suspicious person. Against the advice of the emergency dispatcher, Zimmerman then followed Martin, who was walking home from a convenience store with a bag of Skittles sweets in his pocket.

The justice department said in a statement late on Monday that the FBI and the US attorney's office will join in the agency's investigation.

"The department will conduct a thorough and independent review of all the evidence and take appropriate action at the conclusion of the investigation," the agency said.

The case has garnered national attention. Civil rights activist Al Sharpton is expected to join Sanford city leaders in a Tuesday evening town hall meeting to discuss how the investigation is being handled with residents. The justice department said its community relations service will also be in Sanford this week to meet with authorities, community officials and civil rights leaders "to address tension in the community".

Earlier on Monday, college students around Florida rallied to demand Zimmerman's arrest, though authorities may be hamstrung by a state law that allows people to defend themselves with deadly force.

Prosecutors may not be able to charge Zimmerman because of changes to state law in 2005. Under the old law, people could use deadly force in self-defence only if they had tried to run away or otherwise avoid the danger.

Under the new law, there is no duty to retreat and it gives a Floridian the right "to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force," if he feels threatened.

Students held rallies on the campus of Florida A&M University in Tallahassee and outside the Seminole county criminal justice centre, where prosecutors are reviewing the case to determine if charges should be filed. The students demanded Zimmerman's arrest.

"I don't think a man who exited his vehicle after the 911 dispatcher told him to stay inside the car can claim self-defence," Carl McPhail, a 28-year-old Barry University law school student, said at the Sanford rally.

The 70 protesters at the Sanford rally chanted "What if it was your son?" and held posters saying, "This is not a race issue." Many carried Skittles.
Martin's parents and other advocates have said the shooter would have been arrested had he been black.

"You would think that Sanford is still in the 1800s claiming that this man can call self-defence for shooting an unarmed boy," restaurant owner Linda Tillman said.

Florida congresswoman Corrine Brown along with members of the Congressional Black Caucus and the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, had asked the justice department to review the case, and White House spokesman Jay Carney said earlier on Monday during a briefing that officials there were aware of what happened.

"Our thoughts and prayers go out to Trayvon Martin's family," Carney said at the time. "But obviously we're not going to wade into a local law enforcement matter."

Florida Governor Rick Scott has directed the state department of law enforcement to help local authorities in their investigation. The governor said in a memo to department Commissioner Gerald Bradley that the circumstances surrounding the death "have caused significant concern within the Sanford community and the state".

Prosecutors can have a hard time making a case if there is no one else around to contradict a person who claims self-defence, said David Hill, a criminal defence attorney in Orlando. So far, Sanford police have said there is no evidence to contradict Zimmerman's claims.

"If there is nobody around and you pull a gun, you just say, 'Hey, I reasonably believed I was under imminent attack. Hey, sorry. Too bad. But you can't prosecute me,'" Hill said, somewhat tongue-in-cheek.

Gun control advocates said the case is emblematic of permissive gun laws in Florida, which was among the first states to allow residents to carry concealed weapons. Florida was the first state to pass a "Stand Your Ground" law, which has been dubbed a "Shoot First" law by gun control advocates.

Currently, about half of all US states have similar laws, said Brian Malte, legislative director of the Brady Campaign, which describes itself as the nation's largest organisation dedicated to the prevention of gun violence.

"It's coming to dangerous fruition," Malte said. "There are more states like Florida." 

The "Stand Your Ground" law's legislative sponsor, Florida Representative Dennis Baxley, said it was not written to give people the power to pursue and confront others.

"That's not what this legislation does," said Baxley, a Republican. 

"Unfortunately, every time there is an unfortunate incident involving a firearm, they think it's about this law, and it's not."

US justice department to investigate Trayvon Martin killing | World news | guardian.co.uk

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## kingwilly

> "I don't think a man who exited his vehicle after the 911 dispatcher told him to stay inside the car can claim self-defence,"


One would hope not. 

 :Sad:

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## blue

Useless news story 
hardly explains what happened 
just  bleats on and on
worlds gayest newspaper from the UK
The Guardian

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## gwargamel

This teens death is no useless news story it is all over the US. It will have major legal and political impact...

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## robuzo

Really awful. The dispatcher told the AWIG not to the follow the boy. Utterly senseless killing.

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## gwargamel

> Really awful. The dispatcher told the AWIG not to the follow the boy. Utterly senseless killing.


Then the man stalked him and shot the teen as he begged for help..

Yet according to Florida law if you "claim" self defense then you can not be arrested. I do support concealed carry and self defense in the US and I think that it is far better then the hell that exists in the UK where you can not even defend your property, however this is not justifiable on any level..

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## blue

> This teens death is no useless news story it is all over the US. It will have major legal and political impact...


Excuse me
I meant the quality of reporting 
it does not tell how he ended up getting shot in a gated estate
just that he was followed

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## robuzo

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
> Really awful. The dispatcher told the AWIG not to the follow the boy. Utterly senseless killing.
> 
> 
> Then the man stalked him and shot the teen as he begged for help..
> 
> Yet according to Florida law if you "claim" self defense then you can not be arrested. I do support concealed carry and self defense in the US and I think that it is far better then the hell that exists in the UK where you can not even defend your property, however this is not justifiable on any level..


How the hell can the cops say it was self-defense if he followed the boy? I think the "no retreat" law is generally good, but it shouldn't be usable to be an excuse to kill someone when there are no witnesses.

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## Jesus Jones

I very much doubt the response would have been the same if it was a white teenager!

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## ENT

I just feel sick.


RIP, kid.

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## gwargamel

> I very much doubt the response would have been the same if it was a white teenager!


Very true. the white teen would have never been a suspect and would have not been shot begging for help.

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## robuzo

> I very much doubt the response would have been the same if it was a white teenager!


Same story but a white guy in a black neighborhood, try that out as a thought experiment.

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## Mr Gribbs

Blacks kill blacks all day every day over the most frivolous of shit, but when the shooter is non black it's a big deal. I don't think race had anything to do with the shooting, the shooter isn't even white, his mother is a dark skinned "latino" from Central or South America, or some island. Martin is probably one of these innocent youths with a juvenile record as long as his arm. These neighborhood watch guys are usually a bunch of wannabe cops who can't seem to mind their own fucking business, I know a few.

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## Bettyboo

^ nice to see you supporting Mr Zimmerman, Mr Gibbs - here's for you, buddy.

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## Mr Gribbs

> ^ nice to see you supporting Mr Zimmerman, Mr Gibbs - here's for you, buddy.


Hey look, this idiot thinks you can tell a persons religion by their surname! I'm not supporting either side, I'm against the media (which is heavily controlled by the Jews, just ask Rick Sanchez) who were jizzing in their drawers at the thought of portraying this story as racially motivated. An innocent black kid getting shot by some white racist for no reason, when in reality the shooter isn't white, but hispanic.

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## alwarner

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
> Really awful. The dispatcher told the AWIG not to the follow the boy. Utterly senseless killing.
> 
> 
> Then the man stalked him and shot the teen as he begged for help..
> 
> Yet according to Florida law if you "claim" self defense then you can not be arrested. I do support concealed carry and self defense in the US and I think that it is far better then* the hell that exists in the UK where you can not even defend your property, however this is not justifiable on any level*..


Changed a lot recently.

Been a couple of home owners / business owners who have killed intruders over the last 6 months with no charges brought.

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## Bettyboo

> Hey look, this idiot thinks you can tell a persons religion by their surname!


I've never met or heard of a Zimmerman who wasn't Jewish.

So, you hate the Jews, hate the blacks, that's a lot of the World population done. Keep going, you'll get there...

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## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
> Really awful. The dispatcher told the AWIG not to the follow the boy. Utterly senseless killing.
> 
> 
> Then the man stalked him and shot the teen as he begged for help..
> 
> Yet according to Florida law if you "claim" self defense then you can not be arrested. I do support concealed carry and self defense in the US and I think that it is far better then the hell that exists in the UK where you can not even defend your property, however this is not justifiable on any level..



It is, however, an inevitable result of giving out guns like candy to irresponsible macho twats.

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## Mr Gribbs

> Originally Posted by Mr Gribbs
> 
> Hey look, this idiot thinks you can tell a persons religion by their surname!
> 
> 
> I've never met or heard of a Zimmerman who wasn't Jewish.
> 
> So, you hate the Jews, hate the blacks, that's a lot of the World population done. Keep going, you'll get there...


 
Where did you get that from? I said the media wants to make this out as racial. There is nothing racist about acknowleding a lot of black kids got records, and the media tries to portray them as saints. I see it every day on the local news, so and so was good boy, then you learn he has been convicted of half a dozen violent crimes.

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## ENT

> Originally Posted by Mr Gribbs
> 
> Hey look, this idiot thinks you can tell a persons religion by their surname!
> 
> 
> I've never met or heard of a Zimmerman who wasn't Jewish.


I have, it's quite a common name in Europe and the US.

Zimmermann is a German surname and the occupational name in German for a carpenter. As a surname, it is often confused with Zimmerman; the variance "nn" or "n" may have a number of implications: racial, ethnic and religious among them.[1] As an occupational name, it derives from the Middle High German zimbermann, a compound of zimber, zim(m) er timber, wood + mann man.

Zimmermann - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's also the name for a German guild of journeymen carpenters wearing distinctive black and white clothes.

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## Humbert

> I've never met or heard of a Zimmerman who wasn't Jewish.


I have, but never mind.
Zimmmerman will probably get off because of Florida's laws which make it practically impossible to convict someone if they say they acted in self defense.

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## robuzo

> Originally Posted by Bettyboo
> 
> I've never met or heard of a Zimmerman who wasn't Jewish.
> 
> 
> I have, but never mind.
> Zimmmerman will probably get off because of Florida's laws which make it practically impossible to convict someone if they say they acted in self defense.


Plenty of people in Pennsylvania named Zimmerman who are not Jewish. The most famous one, from Duluth, is.

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## fiddler

The gun carriers have a lot of rights in the US. 
Stupid laws. 
This man belongs out of society.
I wonder how he'll like being in prison with 80% blacks?

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## robuzo

I'm kind of wondering how he can live with himself after murdering an unarmed kid.

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## robuzo

> Martin is probably one of these innocent youths with a juvenile record as long as his arm.


Do you mean this Trayvon Martin?
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/21/us...n.html?_r=1&hp
". . .Trayvon, 17, a well-liked high school student from Miami with no criminal record. . ."

Keep trying. Racist much?

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## harrybarracuda

[quote=robuzo;2049720]


> Do you mean this Trayvon Martin?
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/21/us...n.html?_r=1&hp
> ". . .Trayvon, 17, a well-liked high school student from Miami with no criminal record. . ."
> 
> Keep trying. Racist much?


 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

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## harrybarracuda

I think this 28-year old failure really wanted to be a cop, but was obviously unstable.




> Mr. Zimmerman had reported a “suspicious” person to 911 a shortly before  the encounter, saying a black male was checking out the houses and  staring at him. Mr. Zimmerman, a criminal justice major, often patrolled  the neighborhood. He had placed 46 calls to 911 in 14 months, for  reports including open windows and suspicious persons.


Fucking curtain twitcher.

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## Mr Gribbs

> Originally Posted by Mr Gribbs
> 
> 
> Martin is probably one of these innocent youths with a juvenile record as long as his arm.
> 
> 
> Do you mean this Trayvon Martin?
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/21/us...n.html?_r=1&hp
> ". . .Trayvon, 17, a well-liked high school student from Miami with no criminal record. . ."
> ...


Brain dead lemming much?

No, I believe I read before the media masturbation really took off Martin had juvenile record that expunged, even if he didn't have a record that doesn't mean he was a thug. I like how the media tries to portray him as a child too with the picture that was probably taken when he was 13, he was 6'3 when he was killed. The media is making a big deal out of this because the shooter was non black. Just yesterday I read about three murders committed by blacks Martin's age in my local paper. One black kid killed a beautiful Bulgarian girl going to some dance school, an old Asia guy succumbed to his injuries a few weeks after being beaten by some black kid at his store, and a black and latino kids on a stolen atv's killed by another black kid. 

The story is being manipulaited by the media. The story is being heavily redacted to make Martin look like a saint. It is taboo in the media and public to be critical of blacks and not take their side, them and the Jews are basically untouchables, you don't play on their team kiss your ass good bye. They are basically trying to bully the courts into charging Zimmerman with a crime despite the police belief there wasn't one, just like the Jews did with the octogenarian living in Ohio.

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## robuzo

^Yes, you "believe" you read something. Was it in a dream? A fantasy that involved you avenging the crimes of "blacks Martin's age"? Basically, what you are saying is that it was OK to shoot that young man because he was black. I'd love to debate this with you further, but not in this format.

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## S Landreth

^Kendall Coffey was just on (MSNBC) and said he believed that this will be a hard case to prosecute, because of our Florida Law (Stand Your Ground: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/.../0776.013.html ).

Kendall does believe this man was a kind of a vigilante.

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## DrAndy

I haven't seen any information regarding the "self defence"

what happened?  did the black kid whip out his pack of skittles and wave them around?

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## robuzo

> I haven't seen any information regarding the "self defence"
> 
> what happened?  did the black kid whip out his pack of skittles and wave them around?


Right- how was Zimmerman concerned about "deadly force" or serious injury when he had the gun and is older and possibly a good bit stronger than than the 17-year-old? He was following the boy, which sort of implies that maybe the boy was the one with a possible assault (by an older armed male stranger) to worry about.

Judging by these photos, Zimmerman shouldn't have been too afraid of some wiry kid, unless he has a serious case of blackophobia. Maybe Zimmerman is a midget with a thick neck.

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## Dan

The Situationist had a post on this, reproducing the abstract of a paper published last year.




> African Americans face a significant and menacing threat,  but it is not the one that has preoccupied the press, pundits, and  policy makers in the wake of several bigoted murders and a resurgent  white supremacist movement. While hate crimes and hate groups demand  continued vigilance, if we are truly to protect our minority citizens,  we must shift our most urgent attention from neo-Nazis stockpiling  weapons to the seemingly benign gun owners among us  our friends,  family, and neighbors  who show no animus toward African Americans and  who profess genuine commitments to equality.
> 
> Our commonsense narratives about racism and guns  centered on a  conception of humans as autonomous, self-transparent, rational actors   are outdated and strongly contradicted by recent evidence from the mind  sciences.
> 
> Advances in implicit social cognition reveal that most people carry  biases against racial minorities beyond their conscious awareness. These  biases affect critical behavior, including the actions of individuals  performing shooting tasks. In simulations, Americans are faster and more  accurate when firing on armed blacks than when firing on armed whites,  and faster and more accurate in electing to hold their fire when  confronting unarmed whites than when confronting unarmed blacks. Yet,  studies suggest that people who carry implicit racial bias may be able  to counteract its effects through training.
> 
> Given recent expansions in gun rights and gun ownership  and the  hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of private citizens who already  use firearms in self-defense each year  this is reason for serious  concern. While police officers often receive substantial simulation  training in the use of weapons that, in laboratory experiments, appears  to help them control for implicit bias, members of the public who  purchase guns are under no similar practice duties.
> 
> In addressing this grave danger, states and local governments should  require ongoing training courses for all gun owners similar to other  existing licensing regimes. Such an approach is unlikely to run into  constitutional problems and is more politically tenable than alternative  solutions.


The paper can be found at Quick on the Draw: Implicit Bias and the Second Amendment by Adam Benforado :: SSRN

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## Mr Gribbs

> Originally Posted by DrAndy
> 
> 
> I haven't seen any information regarding the "self defence"
> 
> what happened? did the black kid whip out his pack of skittles and wave them around?
> 
> 
> Right- how was Zimmerman concerned about "deadly force" or serious injury when he had the gun and is older and possibly a good bit stronger than than the 17-year-old? He was following the boy, which sort of implies that maybe the boy was the one with a possible assault (by an older armed male stranger) to worry about.
> ...


 
That photo of Martin is probably outdated, he was 6'3 when he was killed, that is huge to most people, especially some little ass Cuban. Teenagers grow fast.

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## Mr Gribbs

> ^Yes, you "believe" you read something. Was it in a dream? A fantasy that involved you avenging the crimes of "blacks Martin's age"? Basically, what you are saying is that it was OK to shoot that young man because he was black. I'd love to debate this with you further, but not in this format.


I never said it was OK to shoot a young black man, but many, and I mean many young black men are involved in thugish behavior. The biggest issue has moved from the media trying to spin this as a racist murder, to blacks trying to bully the authorities into pressing charges against Zimmerman. This is a scary precedent, real fucking scary.

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## robuzo

^I was hoping you'd suggest a different format, say, some quiet place in South Florida with no witnesses. Feel free to wear your white hood, the one with the eye holes cut out.

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## ENT

George Zimmerman, the self-appointed neighbourhood watch captain who shot and killed Trayvon Martin, had previously been arrested in 2005 on a charge of assaulting a police officer, but the charges were eventually dropped.

Zimmerman had shown a previous propensity to violence, and his role as self appointed captain of a neighbourhood watch volunteer is laughable, considering his past.

This man defied the 911 dispatcher's directive to disengage with Trayvon Martin.
Instead, Zimmerman exited his vehicle and stalked Martin while the youth was talking to his girlfriend on his mobile phone, walking (not running away) home.

Neighbours heard Trayvon pleading with Zimmerman before being shot and killed at point blank range.

In other words, Zimmerman deliberately stalked, cornered and murdered Trayvon in cold blood.
There had been no other prior altercation or dispute, nor a warning given to Trayvon by Zimmerman that evening.

The local police chief has now stepped down and Zimmerman has gone into hiding over the matter, as the police have refused to arrest Zimmerman, nor charge him over the matter.
Given that Zimmerman had been arrested and arraigned in court over previously assaulting a policeman, one is led to wonder as to how Zimmerman is able to side-step legal procedure in now, two, separate assaults, the latest escalating into the death of an unarmed young black youth.

Zimmerman was heard on the 911 calls using words describing "coons" and how "they always get away with it" in reference to Trayvon's behaviour, which, in fact, was wholly  innocent.

US government departments, both State and Federal are now in a total tizz over this case.

I think more will emerge to show the level of police corruption involved in the smooth running of the land of the free.

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## benbaaa

Cluster fuck from start to finish.

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## Mr Gribbs

> ^I was hoping you'd suggest a different format, say, some quiet place in South Florida with no witnesses. Feel free to wear your white hood, the one with the eye holes cut out.


Another internet tought guy, who would most likely wouldn't dare say these things to my face. Most blacks are thugs, male and female, not all are thugs, but enough of them are to keep that im mind when dealing with them. Anyone who has lived in this country with them knows that, it has nothing to do with being a racist, it's just reality. I've heard the same from people who've just moved here from other parts of the world, including black Africans. If I had a gun to my head, and had to decide if Martin was a thug or not, you bet your ass I'm saying he was a thug.

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## ENT

Martin didn't have a gun to any one's head. You're in lala land Gribbs, the kid is dead because the wannabe cop thought just like you do.

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## Mr Gribbs

> Martin didn't have a gun to any one's head. You're in lala land Gribbs, the kid is dead because the wannabe cop thought just like you do.


I already said Zimmerman was a wannabe cop, as most people invovled in "town watch" are.

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## ENT

Not all wannabe cops think like you and Zimmerman, though, when it comes to blacks.

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## harrybarracuda

> The biggest issue has moved from the media trying to spin this as a racist murder, to blacks trying to bully the authorities into pressing charges against Zimmerman. This is a scary precedent, real fucking scary.


Do you think this curtain twitcher would have shot a white kid?

I doubt it.

Ironic that today the Florida trial starts of a black kid who shot two white tourists in cold blood.

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## alwarner

BBC News - Trayvon Martin: Obama says teenager&#039;s death a tragedy


US President Barack Obama  has said the "tragedy" of an unarmed black teenager shot dead in  Florida should prompt some national soul-searching.
         The death of Trayvon Martin, 17, gunned down by a  neighbourhood watchman, who was not charged as he claimed self-defence,  has sparked outrage.
         "If I had a son he would look like Trayvon," President Obama told reporters at the White House.
         Rallies have been held this week in Florida and New York to demand justice.
   .     	 		Read more from Mark 
      "I can only imagine what these  parents are going through and when I think about this boy I think about  my own kids," Mr Obama said on Friday.
         "I think they are right to expect that all of us as Americans  take this with the seriousness that it deserves and we're going to get  to the bottom of what happened.
         "Every parent in America should be able to understand why it  is absolutely imperative that we investigate every aspect of this and  everybody pulls together, federal state and local, to figure out exactly  how this tragedy happened," he added.
   'Turmoil' 	      In Florida, a law known as "stand your ground" can prevent  criminal or civil prosecution when deadly force is used in self-defence.
         But there have been mounting calls for the arrest of George  Zimmerman, 28, who opened fire on the teenager on 26 February in the  Orlando suburb of Sanford.
         A grand jury is considering whether to charge Mr Zimmerman and will hear evidence on the case on 10 April.
         The Department of Justice and FBI have launched a civil rights investigation into the conduct of the local police department.
   Looking suspicious 	      Mr Martin was carrying a bag of sweets and a can of iced tea when he was approached by Mr Zimmerman.
         The neighbourhood watchman had told a police dispatcher he thought Mr Martin looked suspicious. 
         It was raining and the teenager had his jacket hood pulled over his head. Mr Zimmerman shot Mr Martin following a confrontation.
         The Florida politician behind the state's 2005 "stand your ground" law has said in an opinion piece for Fox News that he did not believe the rule was applicable in the case of Mr Martin.
         The law "does not provide protection to individuals who seek  to pursue and confront others, as is allegedly the case in the Trayvon  Martin tragedy in Sanford", said Republican State Representative Dennis  Baxley.
         On Thursday, Florida Governor Rick Scott appointed a new prosecutor to handle the case.
         He also established a task force led by the the state's  lieutenant governor, an African-American woman, to conduct hearings on  the incident and recommend any changes to state law.
         Hours earlier, Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee temporarily  stepped down in a bid to defuse building anger that his department had  not arrested Mr Zimmerman.
         Thousands of people gathered at a rally in Sanford on  Thursday evening led by the civil rights leader Al Sharpton demanding  justice for the 17-year-old.
         More than 1.5 million signatures have been gathered for an online petition calling for justice for Mr Martin.


Continue reading the main story 
 		Analysis 	Mark Mardell	North America editor 	 
 	 	      These remarks are rare and deliberate, and some will find them  controversial. America's first black president rarely gets embroiled in  issues of race beyond anodyne comments about civil rights. Just talking  about race in the US is potentially politically explosive. 
         What is often accepted as obvious and common sense among  African-Americans can be treated as astonishing and provocative by some  whites. The president was roundly criticised in 2009 when he described  police as "stupid" for arresting a black Harvard professor outside his  own home. Then, as more subtly, now, he was voicing what many black  Americans feel: their colour alone makes some whites view them as  criminals.
         The president's powerful identification with the family of  Trayvon Martin will be warmly welcomed by many. But it would be  surprising if his opponents don't complain that he is sympathising with  people on the grounds of race alone

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## billy the kid

prick should get a life sentence.

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## hazz

> The story is being manipulaited by the media. The story is being heavily redacted to make Martin look like a saint. It is taboo in the media and public to be critical of blacks and not take their side, them and the Jews are basically untouchables, you don't play on their team kiss your ass good bye. They are basically trying to bully the courts into charging Zimmerman with a crime despite the police belief there wasn't one, just like the Jews did with the octogenarian living in Ohio.


You really do live in a fantasy world don't you. You really think that the US press would never say anything critical about anyone who is jewish or black?

A society that creates laws that allow and see's no moral crime in killing a fellow human being who is pleading for their lives is a society that has lost the right to respect at any level or even exist.

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## harrybarracuda

Come to Sunny Florida for a lovely holiday.

And get shot.




> *Two British men shot dead on holiday for 'refusing to pay mugger' 
> *
> 
> *Two British holidaymakers were shot dead after they lied to a teenage mugger that they had no money, a court heard yesterday.*
> 
> 
>        Lawyer: Carolyn Schlemmer and Shawn Tyson, who is accused of the murders (Picture: AP)    
> James Kouzaris,  24, and James Cooper, 25, were killed after a drunken night out – Mr  Cooper was shot four times and Mr Kouzaris twice in the back.
> They  were found without their shirts on, and with their trousers round their  thighs. The pair had been drinking after a meal in Sarasota, Florida  and were seen ‘staggering’ about. 
> ...

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## blue

I think there was a thread about that shooting here too.

This thread is useless 
its more issues than news,
what happened that caused the young fella to be shot ?

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## ENT

Read the thread.

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## blue

MKP the thread

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## ENT

Gays and blacks disturb you, don't they blue?

Maybe you could find a "cure" for that problem.

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## khmen

> Gays and blacks disturb you, don't they blue?
> 
> Maybe you could find a "cure" for that problem.


I'm sure this pair would 'cure' him good n proper!:



Top tip of the day: Don't google 'Gay black man' with your safesearch function turned off, it ain't pretty.
 :Smile:

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## ENT

Oooops!    :Smile:

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## Submaniac

FYI, if anyone cares, the chief of police who made the comments that there was not enough to prosecute Zimmerman has "temporarily stepped down" as chief.  So has the prosecutor.  The state of Florida is appointing a new prosecutor.   The lower level decision not to prosecute will probably get overruled by the higher level folks.

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## blue

yes interesting indeed
all i want to know is what happened between these 2 events 
 a -the hispanic guy follows the black guy

b- the black is shot dead 

did the killer report the shooting , and said its ok it was self defence 
did the cops reply oh ok- we don't need any more details then, you are covered  thanks ,bye.

----------


## Submaniac

The information is that the 17 year old's father lived in a guarded gate community.  He went to the convenience store and came back with "Skittles" candy.  The shooter (Zimmerman) was the neighborhood watch captain.  This is not an official position, but a community can have private citizens patrolling a private neighborhood.  When the 17 year old (Martin) was walking back to his father's house, he was on the phone with his girlfriend and allegedly told her that he was being followed by someone (turns out to be the Killer Zimmerman).  Zimmerman called the police that there was a suspicious black youth in the neighborhood.  The police told him to not do anything and they would send a patrol car over.   No one really knows what happened next (except Zimmerman). Zimmerman ended up shooting the 17 year old with a 9mm pistol.   Zimmerman claimed he went back to his truck and the 17 year old attacked him.   The police who arrived noted that his back was wet, as if rolling on the ground, and that there were abrasions on his head as if he were in a fight. They made the decision not to arrest Zimmerman. 

Between the (1) hispanic guy follows black guy and (2) black guy is shot dead is the mystery.   There seems to be two different stories: either black guy physically attacked hispanic guy (the shooter claims this) or the hispanic guy chased down and "hunted" the black guy.   

The police at the scene chose not to arrest the shooter based upon Florida's "Stand your ground" law which does not require that a shooter attempt to flee prior to using deadly force to prevent imminent death, bodily injury or trying to stop the commissioning of a felony.   Apparently the police (though I may disagree) believed there was sufficient evidence to demonstrate that the black guy was in a fight with the Hispanic guy to demonstrate "self defense".   The issue whether there was "self defense" is debated.

This, of course, is "in a nutshell".

----------


## billy the kid

the kid was shot down in cold blood
if you recognised a dog that had rabies
then everybody would say
hey well done man 
but to shoot down a kid for NO other reason than colour is psycho terrortory.
bet he was enjoying a few beers when the kid came onto his radar.
america is has some crazed people.

----------


## blue

well explained thanks

----------


## Boon Mee

The corollary of course is how can it help to have Al Sharpton leading protests and Louis Farrakhan threatening violence? The shooter is Latino, not white.

Al Sharpton | Sanford Florida | Trayvon Martin Rally | The Daily Caller

Louis Farrakhan Tweets Curious Messages About Peace & Justice | Trayvon Martin | TheBlaze.com

----------


## robuzo

It's entirely possible that the cops made the decision not to arrest Zimmerman because they thought that based on the "No Retreat" law they wouldn't have a case. If you take a look at some other cases in Florida in which someone not only didn't retreat, but pursued the person he killed prior to not retreating- two instances I read about involved a guy grabbing a knife and running out the door after someone who had broken into his car, and another shooting someone whom he had followed because he didn't like the way they were driving. Not being a forced to get away if possible prior to defending oneself seems fair to me, but there maybe should be a clause included that you had better not have instigated the incident in the first place. Racism may have got Trayvon killed, but more than anything else it is probably a vague, poorly-written law that kept the cops from running some vigilante wannabe in for the killing. Maybe the cops could have done more, but there is reason to believe they might think their hands are tied.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> It's entirely possible that the cops made the decision not to arrest Zimmerman because they thought that based on the "No Retreat" law they wouldn't have a case. If you take a look at some other cases in Florida in which someone not only didn't retreat, but pursued the person he killed prior to not retreating- two instances I read about involved a guy grabbing a knife and running out the door after someone who had broken into his car, and another shooting someone whom he had followed because he didn't like the way they were driving. Not being a forced to get away if possible prior to defending oneself seems fair to me, but there maybe should be a clause included that you had better not have instigated the incident in the first place. Racism may have got Trayvon killed, but more than anything else it is probably a vague, poorly-written law that kept the cops from running some vigilante wannabe in for the killing. Maybe the cops could have done more, but there is reason to believe they might think their hands are tied.


Florida is a white man's state, so they've enacted laws that allow white folk to kill blacks and get away with it.

Not really much of a surprise.

----------


## ltnt

We can close this stipulation out now.  Submaniac has noted all the particulars involved i this case as it has been reported both to the police and the public.

Can all the baiting now cease?  Good post Submaniac.  Tried to green ya, but your brim is full....

----------


## harrybarracuda

^ I think we'll close it when we fucking feel like it, cheers pal.

----------


## ltnt

More to ya Harry!  How's the job going?  Anyone review your working patterns on the computer?  You know those slippery little devils in IT like to follow their workers around the tube.

Why not close it Harry, the truth is out.  All you have to be able to do is read and understand like any reasonable person.  Of course you're not reasonable.  I forgot, more like Al Sharpton, like to hear yourself and be admired for your discourse no matter how foolish and garbled it is.

Have a nice day Harry.  kudos to ya...

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Rivera objected to any interpretations that he blames Martin. No, Siree, Rivera blames the way Martin _dressed_.  In fact, Rivera could hardly wait to make the point. The segment began  with a discussion of minorities being stopped and searched by New York  City police. Rather than question what is reasonable suspicion upon  which to base a search, Rivera suggested that dressing a certain way is a  legitimate reason to be searched.
> 
> *"I’m telling you, half of it is the way young men look. What is a reasonable suspicion?* It’s  based on a subjective judgment. If a cop looks at three kids on the  corner and they’ve got those hoodies up – and this is where I got in  trouble with the Trayvon Martin case. *If they’ve got those  hoodies up, and they’re hanging out on the corner, the cops look at them  and say, ‘Hmm, hoodies. Who else wears hoodies?’ Everybody that ever  stuck up a convenience store, D.B. Cooper, the guy that hijacked the  plane…the Unabomber – who wears these hoodies?"
> 
> 
> *

----------


## Mr Gribbs

> Rivera objected to any interpretations that he blames Martin. No, Siree, Rivera blames the way Martin _dressed_. In fact, Rivera could hardly wait to make the point. The segment began with a discussion of minorities being stopped and searched by New York City police. Rather than question what is reasonable suspicion upon which to base a search, Rivera suggested that dressing a certain way is a legitimate reason to be searched.
> 
> *"Im telling you, half of it is the way young men look. What is a reasonable suspicion?* Its based on a subjective judgment. If a cop looks at three kids on the corner and theyve got those hoodies up  and this is where I got in trouble with the Trayvon Martin case. *If theyve got those hoodies up, and theyre hanging out on the corner, the cops look at them and say, Hmm, hoodies. Who else wears hoodies? Everybody that ever stuck up a convenience store, D.B. Cooper, the guy that hijacked the planethe Unabomber  who wears these hoodies?"*


Little known fact: Geraldo Rivera is a NYC Jew. He don't have a "latino" agenda, but a Jewish agenda.

----------


## Mr Gribbs

> Originally Posted by Mr Gribbs
> 
> The story is being manipulaited by the media. The story is being heavily redacted to make Martin look like a saint. It is taboo in the media and public to be critical of blacks and not take their side, them and the Jews are basically untouchables, you don't play on their team kiss your ass good bye. They are basically trying to bully the courts into charging Zimmerman with a crime despite the police belief there wasn't one, just like the Jews did with the octogenarian living in Ohio.
> 
> 
> You really do live in a fantasy world don't you. You really think that the US press would never say anything critical about anyone who is jewish or black?
> 
> A society that creates laws that allow and see's no moral crime in killing a fellow human being who is pleading for their lives is a society that has lost the right to respect at any level or even exist.


You don't have a clue about the US media if your post is serious. You mean a society that allows people to protect themselves? How many people are killed every year by blacks that look just like Martin? I will tell you, it is in the thousands. You're another bigoted idiot who thinks the world should live by _your morals_ and not their own. Morals aren't set in stone, they are fluid, each society has different morals. If you want to be a sitting duck for some black youths, be my fucking guest.

----------


## ENT

*Back to the case.  *  

Santorum On Trayvon Martin Case: ‘Chilling Example’ Of ‘Horrible Decisions’ By Law Enforcement
by Meenal Vamburkar | 1:32 pm, March 23rd, 2012

Joining his fellow GOP candidates, and President Obama, Rick Santorum made a statement today about the Trayvon Martin case. Calling the incident “chilling,” Santorum also remarked on the reaction from law enforcement, saying it was an example “of horrible decisions made by people in this process.”

RELATED: Mitt Romney Releases Statement On Trayvon Martin Killing: ‘A Tragedy’

Santorum said:

“It’s a horrible case, and it’s chilling to hear what happened. And of course the fact that law enforcement didn’t immediately go after and prosecute this case is another chilling example of horrible decisions made by people in this process.
[...]
I think it’s pretty clear the problems we’re seeing in this case, and hopefully the state Attorney General and local community is reacting and responding. And hopefully this matter will be an example of what law enforcement has to do in a case like this.”
Romney, Gingrich and Obama have also asked for a thorough investigation of the case

Santorum On Trayvon Martin Case: ‘Chilling Example’ Of ‘Horrible Decisions’ By Law Enforcement | Mediaite


Earlier, Obama is reported to have said that if he had a son, the young man would have looked a lot like Trayvon.

----------


## ltnt

This case is over a month old.  The event occurred in February?  Why all the outrage now?  Chicago had its share of race related killings this and last month, unfortunately the majority were black on white, black on Hispanic and black on black.  As a matter of fact a young white couple were brutally tortured to death by 5 black men yet no public outcry over that?  No professions of "Tragedy," were expressed by anyone let alone that faker of a POTUS.  Prisons are filled with black offenders.  Its not racism that put them there.  Just ask Hearaldo, (Puerto Rican BTW) he knows the truth.  Its the hoods.  FFS, give me a break.

----------


## blue

is it cold in Florida and the moment ?
maybe the youth  are cold and need the hoodie

''Earlier, Obama is reported to have said that if he had a son, the young man would have looked a lot like Trayvon.''

he's a clown ,
so it does matter what someone looks like, before you decide how  much you care about them

----------


## Mr Gribbs

> This case is over a month old. The event occurred in February? Why all the outrage now? Chicago had its share of race related killings this and last month, unfortunately the majority were black on white, black on Hispanic and black on black. As a matter of fact a young white couple were brutally tortured to death by 5 black men yet no public outcry over that? No professions of "Tragedy," were expressed by anyone let alone that faker of a POTUS. Prisons are filled with black offenders. Its not racism that put them there. Just ask Hearaldo, (Puerto Rican BTW) he knows the truth. Its the hoods. FFS, give me a break.


Don't forget about the black "flash mobs" that exsclusively targeted white people. There were a couple old white people that got their heads bashed in by black teens here in Philadelphia. There was also the black kids beating the shit out of Asian kids at a local high school here in Philadelphia, that was buried by the meida too. Obama as the President, shouldn't be giving his opinion on every little matter out there, including this killing. Blacks are knocking off blacks all the time, a much bigger issue.

----------


## gwargamel

To think all this time I thought Gribbs was black. I was was way wrong..

----------


## alwarner

> *To think all this time I thought Gribbs was black*. I was was way wrong..


That's just his soul.

 :Smile:

----------


## gwargamel

> That's just his soul.


 :rofl:

----------


## ENT

> This case is over a month old.  The event occurred in February?  .


*Less than a month ago*, it was on 26th February that he was killed.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> More to ya Harry!  How's the job going?  Anyone review your working patterns on the computer?  You know those slippery little devils in IT like to follow their workers around the tube.
> 
> Why not close it Harry, the truth is out.  All you have to be able to do is read and understand like any reasonable person.  Of course you're not reasonable.  I forgot, more like Al Sharpton, like to hear yourself and be admired for your discourse no matter how foolish and garbled it is.
> 
> Have a nice day Harry.  kudos to ya...


Stop talking shit, mate, we have a subject to discuss. If you think you've seen enough in this thread, you can always fuck off and read something else.

Not difficult, is it?

----------


## hazz

> You don't have a clue about the US media if your post is serious. You mean a society that allows people to protect themselves? How many people are killed every year by blacks that look just like Martin? I will tell you, it is in the thousands. You're another bigoted idiot who thinks the world should live by _your morals_ and not their own. Morals aren't set in stone, they are fluid, each society has different morals. If you want to be a sitting duck for some black youths, be my fucking guest.


no i am not taking about a society that allows people to protect themselves, i am taking about a society that thinks its reasonable to

Stalk and hunt someone down for no other reason than you feel they dont belong
To execute them, whilst they beg for their lives

One of the most fundimental rights in this world is the right to life and its not unreasonable to expect people to have a bloody reason for taking one legally. It seems to me that this young man was killed ofr no other reason that, rather like yourself, mr zimmerman is shit scared of anyone with black skin. Because i am yet to hear any explanation as to why zimmerman had no choice but to kill the chap, beyond the veiw that black peolle are violent evil people who simly should be shot for existing.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Florida is a white man's state, so they've enacted laws that allow white folk to kill blacks and get away with it.


I thought we established the killer is not white but Hispanic mix.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> Florida is a white man's state, so they've enacted laws that allow white folk to kill blacks and get away with it.
> 
> 
> I thought we established the killer is not white but Hispanic mix.


Yes, and apparently gangs are using this law to great effect, also.

But that isn't what I said.

----------


## attaboy

> Because i am yet to hear any explanation as to why zimmerman had no choice but to kill the chap, beyond the veiw that black peolle are violent evil people who simly should be shot for existing.


Well, that's the problem.  We have no concrete news to determine much of anything yet.

From what I've gathered Zimmerman was out to murder someone and he finally talked himself into doing it, but I can't be sure of it. 


From the 911 tapes Zimmerman admits to following the young man (you can hear him out of breath as if he had been chasing Trayvon). The 911 dispatcher tells Zimmerman to stop following the boy and then the 911 dispatcher asks him to meet the police at the mailboxes for the apartments. Zimmerman agrees to the meeting place and then changes his mind saying, _have the police call me and I will tell them where I am at_.  The 911 dispatcher agrees to this. 

It leads me to believe that Zimmerman was stalking the boy.  He was the aggressor.  If the boy fought Zimmerman it was because Zimmerman was the aggressor.  The Florida 'stand your ground' law doesn't seem to apply as a defense.

----------


## Boon Mee

New witness in the Trayvon Martin case:

17-year-old was beating up gunman, according to anonymous witness.

Trayvon Martin: New witness tells police George Zimmerman was provoked | Mail Online

----------


## ENT

If there was a fight between the two, it was instigated by Zimmerman as he was the approaching illegal stalker who confronted Martin as he was phoning his girlfriend.

It appears to me that Martin was acting in self defence against an illegal harassment by Zimmerman.

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by guyinthailand
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> ...


HB, your characterization of Florida is hopelessly simplistic, which is why I haven't responded until now, but you seem to be clinging to it; perhaps you've confused Florida with Alabama. North and Central Florida are pretty much South Dixie, but the rest of the state, including the most densely populated areas, is not. Florida society, and the tensions within it, are a lot more complex than "white v black." White, often elderly, Floridians, many of them transplanted northerners, are paranoid about all sorts of people- blacks, Latinos, scary white kids, the poor (no shortage of those in Flawda), but the political power in Florida leans as Hispanic (who probably by and large supported the "no retreat" provision) and Jewish (who probably by a slight majority didn't) as much as it does cracker. 

Now, for crazed racism, check out Fox News. Some of these comments make Mr. Gribbs sound almost like the voice of tolerance:

Little Green Footballs - Fox News Commenters Spew Another Deluge of Racist Hatred at Trayvon Martin and President Obama
And once again, the racism and hatred is just pouring out of the Fox News audience, in the comments for their article about Obama’s remarks:

Perhaps Obama, Sharpton and Louis Eugene Wolcott (aka Louis Farrakhan) can hold a “Malt Liquour Summit.” Also, have you noticed the femininity of both Farrakhan and Rev. Wright? A natural attraction for B.O.

[…]

Trayvon = Like most Bl acks he’s illegitimate. Where’s his father?

[…]

A new low for obama.CNN ,its blaque anchor and blaque guest,has airtime to denounce this event.the killing is a tragedy,and our blaque president does not need to highlight it..enjoy your time in the spotlite all you minorities…I do not think america will ever elect a blaque,mexican,or any other ,,,thanx to this president,,,he has shown the world, favoritism to his race,,which was not supposed to exist..

[…]

Yes, his panic on Ne gro crime is an epidemic…sorry this did not fit the template you were soooo hoping for.

[…]

Obamanure should start wearing a hoodie so as to more closely identify with his kind.

[…]

Did the white side of him just use a racist joke saying all b l a c k s look alike?

[…]

I know one thing, if a n i g g e r is in my fenced in area he would meet my 12 gauge. N i g g e r s throughout history have been nothing but trouble everywhere they go!

[…]

Obowma is the most judgemental, racist POS on the face of the earth, BAR NONE.

[…]

You’re right, Barak, he DOES look Kenyan…..

[…]

moochelle is probably wondering where barry was 18 years ago…. gotta go check his calendar… im betting he was too busy on the down low to care about women

[…]

Obama is helping a b l a c k mob l y n c h an innocent H i s p a n i c for votes.

[…]

All I can say is that God Zimmerman (the alleged shooter) isn’t a white guy! Now I can walk around and not worry about the hommies beatin on my white-azz over this. Well, at least not over this issue. This whitey is off the hook on this one.

[…]

Breaking News! Last week, when Joe Biden heard that the lead Monkee had died, he ran down the hall of the White House yelling,”I’m the President!, I’m the President!” We can only imagine his disappointment …

[…]

The real question is, if B.O. Sr. is B.O. Jr’s daddy, why does Junior look like Frank Marshall Davis?

[…]

If he was a B l a c k teacher we would lower our flags at half mast—-why? because b l a c k s are semi-retarded—-so we feel sympathy for them.

[…]

Hey Obama, the French Muzzle-em terrorist could be Darryl, your twin brother.

[…]

Shizzle-Nizzle is such a BUFFOON! First, he orders the Holder’s corrupt Feds into a LOCAL law enforcement matter—now….

“SLAYV-VON BEE IZ ONE ‘O MAH LONG-LOST BASTUHD CHITLINS!

[…]

Hello!No, Trayvon does not have African chimpanzee ears so 0bama’s son would not look like Trayvon.

[…]

if they still lived in Africa, they would be living in huts and caves and eating one another.

[…]

Why? … cause Obama would have bought his son a hoody and baggy pants and let him roam the streets all hours of the night?

[…]

Any Obama offspring should be slaughtered including his two wh0re c, u n t daughters. Americans have payed a great price to beat back the communist and Americans will make sure it was not for nothing.

I had to stop at that last one, because I was starting to get physically ill at the thought that I’m sharing a country with these people. This is the right wing base; there is a huge number of comments in this vein, and many of them have numerous “likes” from other readers.
---
Yes, "This is the right wing base." I don't like sharing a country with them either, and I rather like the idea of a "no retreat" provision (written appropriately to prevent vigilantism, stalking and dueling) given that these racist cnuts are so damned hard to avoid nowadays.

----------


## Boon Mee

^
This case is red meat to the crazies on both sides.  You have the Black Panthers offering a $10K reward Dead or Alive for Zimerman and you have the folks quoted above.  My question is what was 62″ Trayvon Martin, wearing a hoodie, doing in a gated community without permission in the middle of the night?

----------


## DrAndy

I believe that an investigation is now underway, although it may turn out to be just another "whitewash"

----------


## Submaniac

> My question is what was 6’2″ Trayvon Martin, wearing a hoodie, doing in a gated community without permission in the middle of the night?


You mean the gated community in which he lived in with his father?

----------


## DrAndy

> How many people are killed every year by blacks that look just like Martin? I will tell you, it is in the thousands.


thank you

all those bloody clones, I blame the scientists

----------


## DrAndy

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> My question is what was 62″ Trayvon Martin, wearing a hoodie, doing in a gated community without permission in the middle of the night?
> 
> 
> You mean the gated community in which he lived in with his father?


 
yes, that one! how dare he live in a gated community?

all those blacks that look just like him should be in the slums

----------


## Boon Mee

The Race Pimps are out in force on this one...

----------


## ltnt

> Originally Posted by ltnt
> 
> 
> This case is over a month old.  The event occurred in February?  .
> 
> 
> *Less than a month ago*, it was on 26th February that he was killed.


JHC! Are you serious?

----------


## ltnt

> Not difficult, is it?


Not at all.  Absolute denial huh Harry?

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by ltnt
> ...


Yes.
Read the news reports.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> Not difficult, is it?
> 
> 
> Not at all.  Absolute denial huh Harry?


Simply trying to keep you on track, dear chap. You seem to want to shoot the messenger simply because you've run out of anything useful to say.

Or perhaps you'd care to explain what you added to the debate in post #64.

Or in fact what you added when you decided to graciously tell us the subject should be closed?

Are you one of those fired TV mods or something?

 :Smile:

----------


## ltnt

Absolutely .arry.
Actually the topic has run its course for most right thinking people.  It appears that those who wish to bait and switch care to stay on this tired and redundant topic to add to their reps.

What is in effect a media circus has grown into a international incident.  thanks to CNN and the numerous outraged posters globally that such a thing happened according to their interpretation of the event not actually those facts that have been released.

The racial profiling of the shooter by the CNN network executives has branded this man as "White Hispanic."  Like that makes him something other than what he actually is a Hispanic adopted by a white family.

Just who's getting the news story right here?  This is the ultimate snow job by black America and as we see many posters are ready willing and able to jump on the band wagon.

The story was posted as an event almost a month ago yet in the past month no outcry was heard over this incident.  Why now?  Its just not newsworthy, but Al Sharption is on the scene rabble rousing his minions of fools and idiots to the streets to proclaim yet again some conspiracy by Whitey to keep the black man down.  He was joined in this call by Obama who referred to this dead black boy as his very own spawn.

Tragic, perhaps, do we know or have all the facts no.  
The jury is still out.  

The topic is done IMO.  You do what you like -arry, but this subject has dropped to the level of housewife gossip.

----------


## robuzo

> Absolutely .arry.
> Actually the topic has run its course for most right thinking people.


Oh, do tell, Mr. Wrong Info Right Thinker!



> The racial profiling of the shooter by the CNN network executives has branded this man as "White Hispanic."  Like that makes him something other than what he actually is *a Hispanic adopted by a white family*. -snip- Just who's getting the news story right here?


Not you:
Who is George Zimmerman, and why did he shoot Trayvon Martin? - CSMonitor.com
Zimmerman grew up in Manassas, Va., the son of a white father and a Latina mother. He attended a Catholic church, where he was an altar boy.




> This is the ultimate snow job by black America and as we see many posters are ready willing and able to jump on the band wagon.


Ah, yes, monolithic "black America"- it's out to getcha, ltnt!




> Tragic, perhaps, do we know or have all the facts no.


You certainly don't even seem to have the facts that are easily accessible.

----------


## harrybarracuda

^ Yes ltnt, if this thread has run its course, why are you still posting in it, you dumb shit?

----------


## chitown

If the kid was grasping 4 balloons, then this case *is* closed. According to some TD members.  :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> If the kid was grasping 4 balloons, then this case *is* closed. According to some TD members.


Or perhaps an open and shut Skittles bag.

----------


## ltnt

> you dumb shit?


As always a positive reply.  Thanks 'arry.  As for Robo's comments we all know what to think of you from past experience.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> you dumb shit?
> 
> 
> As always a positive reply.  Thanks 'arry.  As for Robo's comments we all know what to think of you from past experience.


You don't appear to have a lot to offer but wind and piss.

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> you dumb shit?
> 
> 
> As always a positive reply.  Thanks 'arry.  As for Robo's comments we all know what to think of you from past experience.


Is that the royal "we" or do you have a turd in your pocket? Still think Zimmerman was adopted? You obviously are, as you said, finished discussing this because you don't have anything to say, but that doesn't stop you posting.

Here's Jeb Bush on the incident:
This law does not apply to this particular circumstance Stand your ground means stand your ground. It doesnt mean chase after somebody whos turned their back.. . [the lack of arrest] doesnt make sense to me Youve got to let the judicial process work. Hopefully its done at a pace that is respectful for people hurting.
---
Damned lefties, making determinations about a case before they have the facts.
Read more at Florida Gov. Jeb Bush Says ‘Stand Your Ground’ Law Doesn’t Apply to Trayvon Martin Shooting

----------


## sabang

> This case is red meat to the crazies on both sides.


Ain't that the truth. Home grown example-



> Most blacks are thugs, male and female,


The response to this 'what seems to be a' crime is of more interest to me than the crime itself. Plenty of racial tension in the US still, ain't there?

I look askance at this 'stand your ground' law in Florida. It is not to do with a persons right to defend himself- which is a given. It is because there is seemingly no thought given to the concept of 'reasonable force' or reciprocity.

Simplistic example- black guy turns around to white dude, and says "yo cracka, I'm gonna rape your momma."
White dude turns around to rearrange his dentures, rightfully so.
Black guy pulls his piece, and shoots him through the heart, stone dead.
But in self defence, 'stand your ground', thus no crime committed.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 
Well if that is the case (and correct me if I am wrong about this law), then what bullshit. There is reasonable force, and there is lethal force. There is reasonable response, and there is unreasonable response.
This 'law' could be used to set someone up for a Hit, basically, with no legal consequences for the shooter- unless prior motive could be established.

----------


## guyinthailand

"The" definitive text on this matter is the book by Massad Ayoob, "In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Self Defense"

There are many facets to it but here is a summary:

*THE JUDICIOUS USE OF      LETHAL FORCE* 
    Lethal or deadly force is the degree of force that a reasonable and prudent      person would consider capable of causing death or grave bodily harm.      Depending on the circumstance, a crippling injury can be considered grave      bodily harm. For example, if an attacker causes you an injury that would      render you incapable of defending yourself, so that they can continue their      attack unhindered, that would justify the use of lethal/deadly force.  

Deadly force is only warranted to protect      innocent life from immediate and otherwise unavoidable death or grave bodily      harm. You are not justified in pointing a gun at anyone unless the following      three circumstances apply right then and there: (1) the person you are      pointing a gun at possesses the ability (e.g., a gun, a knife, or is known      at the time to have lethal killing skills), (2) immediate opportunity of      causing your death or grave bodily harm, and (3) is acting in such a manner      that a reasonable and prudent person would assume he was using those powers      to place innocent life in jeopardy. Note that ability can also refer to a      notable disparity of force in favor of the attacker (e.g., size, force of      numbers, etc.). The legal system will judge you on the basis of what it      judges that a reasonable and prudent person would have done in the same      situation, knowing what you (the defendant) knew at the time, taking the      totality of the circumstances into account. If the prosecutor decides to      prosecute, he has to show malicious intent on the part of the defendant      (i.e., Mens Rea, the guilty mind), or that the defendant acted with such      gross negligence that the act of killing can be considered culpable      negligence. Ayoob repeatedly emphasized that if right and truth are on your      side, the truth will set you free; that is if you can articulate and      authenticate that truth to the triers of fact.


*Reality drill:*
    We performed and documented each students performance in the famous      Tueller Drill. This demonstrated first-hand that even the most physically      challenged members of our class could cover 21 feet in under two seconds!      Never again think that a guy aggressively brandishing a knife or baseball      bat 20 feet away is not a lethal threat!

----------


## guyinthailand

and:

----------


## Boon Mee

Black friend defends shooter of Florida teen.

“George Zimmerman is not a racist and cried for days after shooting dead a black Florida teenager, a black, longtime friend of Zimmerman said on Sunday in a sympathetic portrayal of a man maligned by critics as a trigger-happy bigot. Zimmerman, 28, a white Hispanic, shot Trayvon Martin, 17, in what he said was self defense during an altercation in the gated community Zimmerman was watching on February 26 in Sanford, Florida. After attracting little notice initially, the case gained widespread attention, sparking protests and renewing a national debate about race.”

Actually, it’s a national debate about press irresponsibility and political dishonesty. And the more information that comes out, the less there seems to be to debate. Obama made a huge mistake playing race hustler on this one too.

"Remember Obama saying about Major Hasan and we shouldn't jump to judgement and how that was hushed up in the media?  Anybody remember this mass murderer?"

Black friend defends shooter of Florida teen | Reuters

http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/25/is...ment-475856876

----------


## Humbert

> “George Zimmerman is not a racist


On the tape he calls the kid a 'coon'. Sounds racist to me.

----------


## Boon Mee

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> George Zimmerman is not a racist
> 
> 
> On the tape he calls the kid a 'coon'. Sounds racist to me.


And Blacks call each other Nigger...

----------


## Chairman Mao

> Originally Posted by Humbert
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> ...


You idiot.

----------


## Boon Mee

^
They don't?

----------


## Chairman Mao

*sigh*

What has blacks referring to themselves as 'niggers' got to do with this non-black fukwit calling one a 'coon'?

Do you think it isn't racist for a non-black to call one a 'coon'?

----------


## hazz

It seems to me that america is a land of fear and loathing.

The people are afraid of the government, blacks, Muslims, their own fucking children
The companies are afraid of their employees, their customers, everyone
The government is afraid of their citizens, hell they are afraid of the whole world

This fear turns to paranoia, hate and yet more fear. As a nation you really need to grow a pair, overcome your fear and see the world and particularly your own country for what it is. 

Perhaps then you can start treating each other with a little more respect and a little less violence at all levels. Hell maybe you will even notice your country as plutocracy it has become and how big business and the politicians they own are running the country to systematically remove you rights and divert your tax money, simply to enrich these businesses and the people who run and own them.

----------


## Boon Mee

> *sigh*
> 
> What has blacks referring to themselves as 'niggers' got to do with this non-black fukwit calling one a 'coon'?
> 
> Do you think it isn't racist for a non-black to call one a 'coon'?


If Zimmerman's black buddy says he's not racist, who are we to judge.

This whole racist PC thing has gotten out of hand.  The other day a Congressman was castigated for using the term 'niggerdly'.

Anyhow, looks like another case of rush to judgement and the race baiters are working overtime.

----------


## Chairman Mao

_Do you think it isn't racist for a non-black to call one a 'coon'?_

So that's a no answer then.

----------


## hazz

> If Zimmerman's black buddy says he's not racist, who are we to judge.


we would say the same thing about those terrorist who have mothers, siblings, friends and neighbours who say they were lovely sweet people and they cannot believe that this person just killed a pile people. 

Judging people by their actions is a far more reliable method of judgment, than purely relying on what friends and neighbours have to say. 
At the end of the day is credible that anyone in europe or america can claim ignorance of the fact that  black people find a non black person calling them coon and nigger offensive? and On that basis the use of these words if indicative of how someone feels about black people.

----------


## robuzo

The thing I'm most curious about is whether or not Zimmerman was emboldened by the "no retreat" provision. I suspect that a poorly written law was the single most important factor in this tragic case.

Zimmerman's friend also says the killer is devastated by the incident. If he has a conscience that is very likely true. He ended one young life and very likely seriously changed his own for the worse, even if he doesn't go to jail.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> The other day a Congressman was castigated for using the term 'niggerdly'.


Well if he spelt it that way, I'm not surprised.

----------


## kmart

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Humbert
> ...


I think "nigga" or "niggah" is more likely.

Such as Martin's actual Twitter name "NO_LIMIT_NIGGA"

Maybe his much-publicised photo may also need an update?

Was Trayvon Martin a Drug Dealer?

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by Chairman Mao
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> ...


What a crock of shit is that useless, uninformative hit piece you linked to- "Instead of that, we are seeing long suspensions from school, tattoos, racially-charged epitaphs, and violence." I doubt the young man's epitaph is going to have "nigga" in it.

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> George Zimmerman is not a racist
> 
> 
> On the tape he calls the kid a 'coon'. Sounds racist to me.


Nothing racist about calling a coon a coon.

----------


## sabang

> Zimmerman's friend also says the killer is devastated by the incident.


As well he might be- apart from the fact he shot an unarmed youth who was merely walking home from the local shop dead, it looks quite likely he will be arraigned for it and have to argue his case before the Court. Considering he was originally told 'no foul' under this stand your ground law, that is quiet a serious development from his pov.

The 'black mate' that spoke up on his behalf, well I'll reserve judgement. Zimmerman has already hired a high profile trial attorney and legal defence specialist- even though he has yet to be charged with anything, and I certainly can't discount the possibility this character reference is, y'know, a plant- maybe a vague acquaintance who was 'bought a drink' for his kind words. Or maybe he is a genuine friend, dunno.

Not much to do with anything really, although it has come up on quite a few posts here. Zimmerman is described as 'not white, but hispanic'. For the record, hispanic is white. Southern European or Latin descent, vs northern European or Teutonic descent are the two main sub-classifications of White. Actually, Zimmermans father is teutonic, his mother latino. So like Obama, he's a mixto, but in this case within the same race.

----------


## robuzo

If Zimmerman isn't emotionally devastated by what he has done he is a psycho, and based on what neighbors and others have said that doesn't seem to be the case. From what I have read so far he sounds like a delusional dumbass who dreamed of being a community hero. Confronted by the enormity of what he has done he is likely feeling overwhelmed. Maybe if other potential would-be heroes see the pain and difficulty that result from doing more than fantasizing about killing a "bad guy" it will give them pause, especially when the "bad guy" turns out to be somebody's kid.

I don't think it is really important (or so far justified by the evidence) to portray the shooter as a dogmatic, as opposed to casual, racist, anymore than it is realistic to view the victim as an angel in the eyes of any but his parents (but please let's not forget who the victims are, i.e., the dead guy and his family). Does the emulation of thug culture make young men look scary? That's kind of the point, isn't it, just like dressing like glam rock stars in the '70's, for example, was intended by some of us to make us look weird to older people. It's stupid to take young fashion victims too seriously (although tats are kind of permanent, but that's another issue). In any case, Trayvon's tats and baggy clothes are beside the point. If being stupid were enough to get you shot then we'd likely have had to say "good-bye" to generations of 17-year-olds long before now. I certainly wouldn't be here now. If you think being a young black male is grounds for being shot then you are beneath contempt as a human being.

If playing up the racial angle makes blacks in Florida feel some sort of solidarity from the community at large, not to mention the president, and keeps the issue from boiling over into something like the riots we saw in Florida in 1980 after white and Hispanic cops beat an innocent black man to death, it will be worth it; I was there, and it was awful. This is true even if the racial angle is not really the most important factor in the tragedy. It isn't really a race or a gun issue; it's about not having laws that encourage knuckleheads to pretend they're Dirty Harry.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> It isn't really a race or a gun issue; it's about not having laws that encourage knuckleheads to pretend they're Dirty Harry.


Well I think it is a gun issue as well. Knuckleheads and nutters should not be able to lay their hands on firearms so easily. There should be *some* kind of test.

But as long as the NRA are there preaching the "right to bear arms", then that ain't gonna change any time soon.

Still, I suppose as long as people are so busy getting frightened up about the 2nd amendment, they won't notice the fact that the 4th amendment and the Bill of Rights are basically getting buried in a big hole, eh?

 :Smile:

----------


## robuzo

If Zimmerman had got his gun out the kid probably wouldn't have come at him. If the fatal wound was inflicted when the kid was on top of Zimmerman a knife could as easily have done the job. Of course, had he not been carrying a gun Zimmerman might not have felt so brave. In any case, conceal and carry permit holders, as Zimmerman is, perpetrate an extremely low percentage of the killings committed in the US every year.





> Still, I suppose as long as people are so busy getting frightened up about the 2nd amendment, they won't notice the fact that the 4th amendment and the Bill of Rights are basically getting buried in a big hole, eh?


Fear can make you hurt yourself. Makes entire countries go nuts and do stupid things (Afghanistan, Iraq. . .)

----------


## Mr Gribbs

> Originally Posted by Mr Gribbs
> 
> 
>  
> You don't have a clue about the US media if your post is serious. You mean a society that allows people to protect themselves? How many people are killed every year by blacks that look just like Martin? I will tell you, it is in the thousands. You're another bigoted idiot who thinks the world should live by _your morals_ and not their own. Morals aren't set in stone, they are fluid, each society has different morals. If you want to be a sitting duck for some black youths, be my fucking guest.
> 
> 
> no i am not taking about a society that allows people to protect themselves, i am taking about a society that thinks its reasonable to
> 
> ...


Your post in this thread are embarassing, you have no idea about US laws, society, media, customs, etc. You come off as a caricature of the foreign know it all telling the native how they should live, but doesn't have a clue. You probably come from one of those countries that had a bunch of colonies a hundred years ago right? Then you come off with the psuedo psychologist, I'm afraid of black people. If that was true why would I live in a city with a black majority? I can't get around dealing with blacks. I say most blacks are thugish because I live around them, not because I made it up.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> I say most blacks are thugish because I live around them, not because I made it up.


I say they probably think you're a c*nt because you look down your stupid nose at them.

 :Smile:

----------


## BaitongBoy

^Heh...

----------


## Mr Gribbs

> I say most blacks are thugish because I live around them, not because I made it up.
> 			
> 		
> 
> I say they probably think you're a c*nt because you look down your stupid nose at them.


No, it is because most of them are assholes, being civil is a sign of weakness in their world. This is not to say all are like that, but enough of them are.

I also just found out that Martin was on school suspension on the night of the shooting. Notice it took weeks for this to become a big story, that is because they weren't finished jumbling the facts to make it seem like it was just some racist shooting for shits and giggles.

----------


## OhOh

Reluctant as I am to become involved in another MSM story, I have come across this posting.

Here is an " official police report" which may have some bearing on this unfortunate event.

It is implying that the "shooter" had been attacked. By whom is not evident. It also alleges the photograph of the "victim" was of when he was 13 years old, some four years ago.

It's Time To Stomp On The Left in [Market-Ticker]

_"There are times that blatant and outrageous pandering just go too far.

This is one of them.

Sen. Chuck Schumer is calling on the Justice Department to investigate so-called "Stand Your Ground" laws following the fatal shooting of an unarmed Florida teen.

The law, a version of which was enacted in Florida in 2005, allows for individuals to use deadly force -- even outside their home -- if they feel threatened.

Since the shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, Republican leaders have called the killing a tragedy but argue that the law in question did not actually apply to this case.

Still, Schumer wrote in a letter to Attorney General Eric Holder on Sunday that the laws themselves should be investigated.

"These laws seem to be encouraging vigilantism by allowing individuals to use deadly force as a first resort," Schumer, D-N.Y., said in a statement.

The Republicans are right -- Schumer is wrong.

Look, it sucks that Martin is dead, ok?  Let's get that out right up front.

But this is not as clear as some people would like you to believe. 

When the Sanford police department responded to the 911 calls they found Zimmerman with injuries and Martin apparently deceased.  This is from the original incident report which is able to be found with 30 seconds worth of effort on The Internet and is an official police public record:"_

 

The blog goes on to discuss the law.

One could argue on the reliability of the police report of course.

Keep up the racist rants brothers, let the reported facts not get in the way.

----------


## Boon Mee

Police: Trayvon Martin Slammed Zimmermans Head Into Sidewalk Several Times.

    With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times, leaving him bloody and battered, authorities have revealed to the Orlando Sentinel.

    That is the account Zimmerman gave police, *and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say.*

It seems as if people might have waited for more information before commencing the lynching, eh?

Trayvon Martin: George Zimmerman's account to police of the Trayvon Martin shooting. - Orlando Sentinel

Works and Days » Beware of the Mob

----------


## Just another BOF

> I think there was a thread about that shooting here too.
> 
> This thread is useless 
> its more issues than news,
> what happened that caused the young fella to be shot ?


 
He was born black.

----------


## Boon Mee



----------


## robuzo

Trayvon Martin: Rev. Jesse Jackson, other civil rights leaders expected to attend town hall meeting for Trayvon Martin case - Orlando Sentinel
"'You are risking going down as the Birmingham and Selma of the 21st century,' Sharpton said at the Sanford Civic Center, which was packed with nearly 500 people."

Huh?

----------


## bsnub

> Police: Trayvon Martin Slammed Zimmerman’s Head Into Sidewalk Several Times.


What a crock of shit. Martin weighed 140 pounds. Zimmerman weighs 250 pounds. I seriously doubt that. Also as someone who has from time to time carried a concealed firearm I can say that it is highly unlikely that Zimmerman would have ever let the kid get that close to him without drawing his pistol. 

This simply did not happen.

----------


## jingoist

Ahhh yes, the bread and circus American media again spinning the story to make4 this kid look like an angel!  :Yup: 




> Police: Trayvon Martin Slammed Zimmermans Head Into Sidewalk Several Times.
> 
>     With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times, leaving him bloody and battered, authorities have revealed to the Orlando Sentinel.
> 
>     That is the account Zimmerman gave police, *and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say.*
> 
> It seems as if people might have waited for more information before commencing the lynching, eh?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				I say most blacks are thugish because I live around them, not because I made it up.
> ...


You might also take the time to find out he was on school suspension for a non-violent infraction, namely being on a part of school campus that was out of bounds.

----------


## koman

> 


 
This was mentioned on a couple of news channels today.   Also the fact (previously not mentioned) that Zimmerman turns out to be actually a half Hispanic....and spend a good deal of time teaching and mentoring black kids.   This hardly fits the mould for a typical racist white guy.... :mid: 

Seems this case has been hijacked by the far left media and a handful of black activists without waiting for any of the evidence to come out.  (ie If a white guy shoots a black kid......it must be racist....what other possible explanation could there be?)  

 Well dear me....turns out the Kid was not quite what has been splashed all over the news,and the white racist turns out to be only half white..and we all know how the white half just disappears from people of mixed race... :mid:  

(no doubt in this case the Hispanic half will be made to disappear just so they can keep calling him a "white" racist)

It now appears that Zimmerman was indeed "attacked" and injured....including a broken nose.   Seems too there is at least one eye witness to this event.

If it turns out that Zimmerman was in fact defending himself and the "kid" was indeed the attacker.......how are the Rev's  Sharp and Jackson....and all the hyper-ventilating activists going to apologise.....it would certainly be expected if it was the other way around....

Then Zimmerman and his family can sue those loudmouth minipulators for defamation and anything else the lawyers can throw at them.  They scream racism at ever opportunity when they are themselves some of the biggest fucking racists in American.....notwithstanding a few aging and partially disabled Klansmen.

Speculation without data is always a mistake.....The speculation has been rampant since the incident happened, but the data is just starting to emerge now.

----------


## The Master Cool

> 


Current, eh.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## pickel

> If it turns out that Zimmerman was in fact defending himself and the "kid" was indeed the attacker.......how are the Rev's Sharp and Jackson....and all the hyper-ventilating activists going to apologise.....it would certainly be expected if it was the other way around....


Regardless of the backgrounds of either of the men involved, the facts are these:

-The black kid was walking in his own neighborhood, armed with a bag of skittles.
-Zimmerman was told by authorities to remain in his vehicle until police arrived.
-Zimmerman ignored that order and stalked the black kid.
-If Zimmerman had followed orders and stayed in his vehicle this event would not be used by extremists on both sides of the racial fence to further their agendas, as well as further divide the American people.
-Zimmerman fucked up.

----------


## The Master Cool

> Fear can make you hurt yourself. Makes entire countries go nuts and do stupid things (Afghanistan, Iraq. . .)


I would have given America as an example.

Look how the (created) fear had (and still has) made vast amounts of the population call for entire countries, that they couldn't locate on a map to be destroyed. To accept the torture and murder of those that are different as acceptable and just, because of the fear that has been implanted within.

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
> Fear can make you hurt yourself. Makes entire countries go nuts and do stupid things (Afghanistan, Iraq. . .)
> 
> 
> I would have given America as an example.
> 
> Look how the (created) fear had (and still has) made vast amounts of the population call for entire countries, that they couldn't locate on a map to be destroyed. To accept the torture and murder of those that are different as acceptable and just, because of the fear that has been implanted within.


Which is what I intended, although the ease with which the US was able to drag certain other countries along, especially the UK, is difficult to understand. I just didn't feel the need to explain the obvious.

----------


## FailSafe

This is a current pic from his Facebook page- the kid does look a bit 'gangsta' (with the gold teeth and everything), though that's not an excuse for what (may have) happened in this case:

----------


## The Master Cool

Fake Gold teeth.

Giving the finger.


Just as well he was executed by a civilian.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> If it turns out that Zimmerman was in fact defending himself and the "kid" was indeed the attacker.......how are the Rev's Sharp and Jackson....and all the hyper-ventilating activists going to apologise.....it would certainly be expected if it was the other way around....
> 
> 
> Regardless of the backgrounds of either of the men involved, the facts are these:
> 
> -The black kid was walking in his own neighborhood, armed with a bag of skittles.
> -Zimmerman was told by authorities to remain in his vehicle until police arrived.
> ...


Those were the original "facts" as reported by much of the news media, which makes them statements, but not necessarily the "facts; " which, in any case now appear to be changing quite rapidly.

At least one report is now saying that the call where the police dispatcher advised Zimmerman that they did not need him to follow the kid actually happened when Zimmerman was already out of his vehicle and following the kid.   (This could be established by the beeping sounds from the vehicle when he opened the door to exit.....before the "don't follow" instruction was issued)  This would have been recorded from what must have been an open line of communications.

 When he was told not to continue following, he responded "ok" and began to return to his vehicle.   (this single component of the conversation has been broadcast over and over...without the rest of the transmission...which may place is completely out of context)  

  It is now being stated that Zimmerman was attacked on his way back to his truck, when he was confronted by the kid and punched in the face.  After this "sucker punch" he fell and was attacked on the ground by the "kid". (who does appear to be somewhat different in his current photo, to what is being touted around the media outlets... :mid: )  Big difference between a fresh faced 11-12 year old and a 17 year old version of the same person.

It may well be true that Zimmerman "fucked up" in some respects...but if it can be established that he was indeed hit first and the _hunter became the hunted_.....that completely changes the complexion of the case and makes a pretty strong case for self defence....which is exactly what he has been claiming right from day one.

Much will depend on being able to establish the precise timing of his exit from the vehicle and the particular part of the communication which advises him not to pursue (follow) and his response.  

People getting killed on their way home from 7-11 is always a bad thing.....but when so many people jump the gun and make all kinds of assuptions about racial motivation and using it for political grandstanding before anything is really known other than that the victim is black, and the shooter is not.....that makes a bad situation a great deal worse.

----------


## pickel

> but if it can be established that he was indeed hit first and *the hunter became the hunted*.....that completely changes the complexion of the case and makes a pretty strong case for self defence....which is exactly what he has been claiming right from day one.


If Zimmerman was the hunter first, then that would make the black kid the "hunted" first. Wouldn't that be a pretty strong case for self defense from the black kid? According to your logic?

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> but if it can be established that he was indeed hit first and *the hunter became the hunted*.....that completely changes the complexion of the case and makes a pretty strong case for self defence....which is exactly what he has been claiming right from day one.
> 
> 
> If Zimmerman was the hunter first, then that would make the black kid the "hunted" first. Wouldn't that be a pretty strong case for self defense from the black kid? According to your logic?


Yep, that makes sense.

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> but if it can be established that he was indeed hit first and *the hunter became the hunted*.....that completely changes the complexion of the case and makes a pretty strong case for self defence....which is exactly what he has been claiming right from day one.
> 
> 
> If Zimmerman was the hunter first, then that would make the black kid the "hunted" first. Wouldn't that be a pretty strong case for self defense from the black kid? According to your logic?


Not *my* logic Pickle...(that was a statement made by a Florida defence lawyer of some note) ..Zimmerman was just following and observing, he did not do anything until after the person he was following punched him on the  nose.   The kid could hardly cite self defence just because he was followed,  unless Zimmerman attacked or threatened him... and there is no suggestion of anything like that happening.   It was the kid who turned and pursued Zimmerman...then hit him.

All this is just conjecture of course.....based on information currently being released.  I have no idea what _really_ happened, or why exactly... :mid: 

Anyhow the kid does not need a defence....he's the dead one.  Zimmerman is the one who needs a "defence"... especially when so many want to lynch him without waiting for the investigation and full evidence to be presented.   It's still early days, but my guess is that he will walk free when all the true facts are in.  Either way, folks like the Rev Sharp will continue to make political mileage out of it... 

If Zimmerman is guilty of cold blooded murder, then I hope he gets his just deserts...on the other hand, if he is not and really was defending himself......

What possible reason could he have had for shooting dead a 17 year old in cold blood regardless of race .....there is no obvious motive, and there is no suggestion of any past behavior that would lead anyone to believe he was racist or violent.  Quite the opposite in fact. 

   At least that is what is now being reported by some of the same sources that were ready to hang him from the nearest tree a few days ago.

----------


## robuzo

I'm not really sure that the primary motivating factor in Zimmerman's stalking, confrontation and shooting of Martin was racism, but it's pretty clear that it is the motivation behind the rather desperate and pathetic attempts to justify the young man's murder.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> I'm not really sure that the primary motivating factor in Zimmerman's stalking, confrontation and shooting of Martin was racism, but it's pretty clear that it is the motivation behind the rather desperate and pathetic attempts to justify the young man's murder.


I thought we'd already established from his frequent calls to the police to report such things as open windows, and his studying "criminal justice", that he was a curtain twitching nosey parker whose life was validated by being a wannabe cop.

That and having a gun is what led to this murder.

If he'd just shut up and watched he would have seen the kid with the skittles and the coke go into his Dad's house, he could have called the police, then there could have been an armed stand off with Fox News reporting a home invasion by a black gang.

----------


## robuzo

^He might just as well have shot a pierced, tattooed white boy. I wonder how many times he did one of these:


"he could have called the police, then there could have been an armed stand off with Fox News reporting a home invasion by a black gang"  :Smile:  That's when you call Steven Seagal!

----------


## sabang

> It may well be true that Zimmerman "fucked up" in some respects.


Certainly under UK or Australian law, this would be considered automatic- because lethal force was employed, beyond all proportion to the threat. Not like he was shot in the leg, or whatever- he was nailed through the heart. But in the US, where any gangbanga can buy a gun, dunno.

----------


## Boon Mee

Since it is becoming increasingly obvious that George Zimmerman is not a criminal but a hero, that Trayvon Martin was a drug-dealing, gang-banging punk, and that Martin was very much the aggressor, the Establishment Left might need to go back to Photoshop to keep the story spinning leftward. 



 :rofl:

----------


## koman

> I'm not really sure that the primary motivating factor in Zimmerman's stalking, confrontation and shooting of Martin was racism, but it's pretty clear that it is the motivation behind the rather desperate and pathetic attempts to justify the young man's murder.


I don't see anyone trying to "justify" the murder.  I see some people attempting to examine the various possibilities in this story instead of just convicting the shooter without bothering with the inconvenience of a proper investigation, charges, and a trial.  Forming a lynch mob.....simply because the victim was black and the accused is white....(well at least part white)  

  The media has even gone to the extent of publishing the most innocent looking version of the victim they could possibly come up with,  and at the same time a picture of Zimmerman that makes him look like a hardened criminal's mug shot.  
(Now why would they do that I wonder....)

 We don't really know what happened exactly....there are conflicting versions of the story, and as time goes on it is starting to appear that Zimmerman *may* be getting a bad rap from the media so far.    Trial by news media and internet seems to be the new norm.

 It hardly seems likely that he just decided to go out and shoot himself a black teenager for no particular reason...especially right after placing himself  at the scene and knowing that his actions would bring half the country down on his head.
(which is exactly what has happened)

   We have now reached a state of affairs apparently, where anyone willing to offer any words of doubt that this may not be the open and shut case it first appeared to be....must be a rabid racist.   I wonder if the kid had been a blond haired, blue eyed son of a Baptist minister.....would this story have gone further than the local radio station...?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> I wonder if the kid had been a blond haired, blue eyed son of a Baptist  minister.....would this story have gone further than the local radio  station...?


Guaranteed, mate. And they'd be asking if the shooter was an illegal alien. Fox would be wanking themselves silly.

 :Smile:

----------


## Mr Gribbs

CNN said Martin was caught with womens jewelry in his school bag, and burglary tool.

Here is a great picture showing the disception, trying to portray Martin as angelic pre teen and Zimmerman as homicidal maniac when reality is the opposite.

----------


## Mr Gribbs

This article sums up everything real nice.

According to the police report of his fatal shooting on the night of February 26, Trayvon Martin stood exactly six feet tall. In death, he has become a hundred times larger.
I believe thats because crass opportunists are using his corpse as a political Macys Parade balloon.
I could be wrong, you know. Unlike a lot of mouths spouting off about the events leading to Trayvons death at the hands of George Zimmerman on that rainy Sunday night in the seedy little gator-hunting town of Sanford, FL, I dont claim to know what happened. Thats because _I wasnt there_. More importantly, I dont claim to know WHY it happened. Thats because _I wasnt inside the killers mind_.
Sorry if that may strike you as an impudently objective approach. I realize that many people find even the feeblest attempt at non-partisan fairness to be off-putting at the very least. These days, any public display of open-mindedness makes a lot of people dizzy and has been known to induce _agita_ in readers with sensitive metabolisms.
Although modern journalism suffers no shortage of liars, most of the false impressions it creates are more due to a careful omission of facts. And in the Trayvon Martin case, Ive seen a whole lotta cherry-pickin goin on. Due to the way the saga is being framed, as well as the fact that its swollen into the top news story in America, a rancid little tug in the pit of my stomach tells me this could all get a lot more dangerous, and quickly.
The flames are being fanned by paid scribes and well-compensated activists whove been salivating for a good old-fashioned white-on-black hate crime, even though this isnt technically one of those.
Trayvon Martin stood exactly six feet tall. In death, he has become a hundred times larger.
But the torches are being carried by those who are acting like they know exactly what happenedeven though, like me, _they werent there, either_. They are gathering in mobs, donning hoods, and demanding blood vengeance just like people gathered in mobs, donned hoods, and demanded blood vengeance a hundred years ago. And just like the mobs from a hundred years ago, they seem to have the sympathy of the media and the president on their side.
Maybe that sounds a little hyperbolic. Well, then, lets go hyperbowling:
White boys who wear hoodies and eat Skittles dont routinely get shot to death, hyperbolized a black writer for the _Atlanta Journal-Constitution_. Black boys do. (Martin was returning to his fathers house with an iced tea and some Skittles when he was killed. To my knowledge, he is the only black male ever to be killed while simultaneously wearing a hoodie and carrying Skittles on his person.) 
It appears that Trayvon Martin was stalked and murderedthe nation must ensure that this pattern and practice of people attacking and killing black men with impunity is ended, says NAACP president Benjamin Todd Jealous, who, if anything, seems jealous that his skin isnt darker. 
Marc Morial, president of the National Urban League, reminded us all that the murder of innocent black men in the American South is nothing new. Fifty-seven years ago, the White murderers of 14-year-old Emmett Till in the Mississippi Delta were acquitted of the crime in a clear case of racial injustice.
I am tired of burying young black boys, Rep. Frederica Wilson (D-FL), said in Congress regarding Martins killing. I am tired of watching them suffer at the hands of those who fear and despise them.
After a while one gets tired of the same old script being played out again and again, said Bishop Donald Hilliard, a black church leader who recently met with US Attorney General Eric Holder to discuss the possibility of bringing federal hate-crime charges against George Zimmerman.
You know what? Im getting tired of all this, too. I think a lot of people are.

, reared his porpoise-shaped head to claim that if Zimmerman is not arrested, the protests will intensify and spill over into other dimensions, which sounds vaguely threatening. 

Taking it up a notch, three-foot-tall one-time filmmaker Spike Lee Tweeted George Zimmermans home address and asked for his followers to spread it far and wide.

Upping Spikes ante, the New Black Pantherssort of the New Coke of hate groupshave offered a million-dollar reward for Zimmermans capture. At a rally in Sanford, a New Black Panther who calls himself Mikhail Muhammadsomehow I suspect thats not what his mommy named himled a group in chants of Justice for Trayvon! and Black Power!


Celebrities and even Philadelphias District Attorney posed for pictures of themselves defiantly wearing hoodies in honor of Trayvon. On and on and on, from NBA teams posing in hoodies to surly protesters wearing boxes of Skittles around their necks in his memory, the meme sprouted like a hundred million nasty little mushroomsTrayvon Martin was murdered in cold blood for no other reason than walking the streets of racist America while black. That was the script, and there was to be no deviating from it.
The reason they know this is because Trayvon was black. That, and because George Zimmerman is white. OK, not reallyhe reportedly self-identifies as Hispanic, and to look at him, he seems to have picked up his mothers Mesoamerican genesbut hes white _enough_.
And thats all the evidence they need.
Well, that and the fact that Zimmerman identified Martin as black to a 911 dispatcher only minutes before the shooting. Then again, thats only because the dispatcher asked him to specify whether the person walking through his gated community in a hoodie was white, black, or Hispanic.
Well, theres the fact that Zimmerman muttered fucking coons on the 911 call. Or at least it _sounds_ like he did. Or at least 

 to isolate and sound-sweeten a segment of his 911 call before suggesting to listeners that he said coons and then played it ten times in a row in a dogged attempt to find hate where it might not actually have existed.
You know, if I had a son, hed look like Trayvon, Barack Obama said from the Rose Garden last week.
Yeah, we know, Mister President. We know _exactly_ what you mean.
This country is racially psychotic. Were at the point where the focus is what was in the killers _mind_ rather than the fact that he killed someone, and thats psychotic.
For days now weve been shown old pictures of a cherubic Trayvon and a brooding Zimmerman rather than much newer pictures of a gold-toothed Trayvon and a smiling Zimmerman.
Weve been told that Trayvon weighed a hundred or so pounds less than Zimmermanwhich is possibly untruebut not that he was at least three inches taller than Zimmerman.
Weve been told that Zimmerman was arrested in 2005 for an altercation with an undercover police officer, but not that Trayvon was visiting his father hundreds of miles from school on the night of his death because he had been suspendedpossibly for trespassing on unauthorized school grounds. (His parents were able to have his high-school records sealed.)
Weve witnessed surreal scenes where sound technicians try to determine whether Zimmerman said coons, but very little about a Facebook photo where someone reputed to be Trayvon Martin calls himself a MADE NIGGA.
Weve heard very little about George Zimmermans statement to police that Martin had jumped him from behind, nor that the police report said Zimmerman was bleeding from his nose and from the back of his head, nor that a neighbor told reporters he saw Martin standing over Zimmerman and beating him.
After all, why should we hear any of these things? _They dont fit the script_.
As I write this, the name Trayvon Martin yields over 15 million results on Google, up from about 11 million yesterday. In contrast, the name Allen Coon coughs up fewer than 8,000 hits. The unfortunately named Coon was the 13-year-old white kid in Kansas City who was doused in gasoline and set ablaze by two black teenagers as they told him, You get what you deserve, white boy.
This gruesome attack happened more than a week after the Trayvon Martin killing. Why havent you heard about it? Because it doesnt fit the script. Youve probably never heard of the Knoxville Five or the Wichita Massacre. Dont blame yourselfthey arent in the script, either.
When the media allow the usual race pimps to blow their rusty horns about how black males are under siege in America, theyll never tell you that statistically, the biggest danger to black males isnt the police or white males or even chubby Florida neighborhood-watch volunteers of vaguely Peruvian ancestryits other black males. But you wont find that in the script. Its actually a very small and tidy script.
When a story becomes this huge, its being exploited for political reasons. If the media were really all that concerned with verifiable racially motivated murders, three white males pled guilty to hate crimes only last week regarding the death of a black man in Mississippi who was targeted for his skin color.
Problem is, Mississippi only counts for six electoral votes and always swings Republican. Florida boasts 27 electoral votes and is considered a crucial swing state in the upcoming presidential election. That could be a huge reason why Obama made loud noises about Trayvon Martin but apparently not a peep about Mississippi murder victim James Craig Anderson.
With all this talk about hatred I must confess that at the moment, I feel filled with hatredat least up to my gills and possibly up to my sinuses. But I am willing to take a polygraph test to determine which group I hate moreAmerican blacks, American politicians, or mainstream American journalists. The boys in the hoodies wouldnt register a blip.




Please share this article by using the link below. When you cut and paste an article, Taki's Magazine misses out on traffic, and our writers don't get paid for their work. Email editors@takimag.com to buy additional rights. Trayvonnosaurus Rex - Taki's Magazine

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## harrybarracuda

> CNN said Martin was caught with womens jewelry in his school bag, and burglary tool.


The only person who could give an account of what happened is being assassinated over and over again by the white man.

I'm just waiting for Fox to allege he had an AK47 and a hand grenade on him.

Anyway, here's an opinion piece:




> *School Report: Trayvon Martin Found with 'Jewelry and Burglary Tool'* 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Submitted by Zach Lisabeth on Mar 26, 2012
>    	Recently divulged information about Trayvon Martin's checkered  academic history has added a new dimension to the very public discussion  about the deceased teenager's month-old shooting.
> ...

----------


## Mr Gribbs

> CNN said Martin was caught with womens jewelry in his school bag, and burglary tool.
> 			
> 		
> 
> The only person who could give an account of what happened is being assassinated over and over again by the white man.
> 
> I'm just waiting for Fox to allege he had an AK47 and a hand grenade on him.
> 
> Anyway, here's an opinion piece:
> ...


You're a real dip shit, FOX is not racist, they routinely fellate Martin Luther King Jr. The guy was a thug, all this shit coming out, ever think about what we don't know?

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## harrybarracuda

> FOX is not racist


 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

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## socal

> FOX is not racist


It's not u idiot.

Anyway I bet dozens of black teenagers have been killed across the country since this murder. I don't see what the big deal is.

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## hazz

^^I guess if you are more racist than fox, then fox is going to look like a bunch of dick sucking lefties. In which case mr gribbs is right, as much as he is so odious he makes fox look quite reasonable.

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## koman

> I wonder if the kid had been a blond haired, blue eyed son of a Baptist minister.....would this story have gone further than the local radio station...?
> 			
> 		
> 
> Guaranteed, mate. And they'd be asking if the shooter was an illegal alien. Fox would be wanking themselves silly.


Actually Harry, Fox has carried this story rather well. Compared to some of the other channels they really have been very "fair and balanced"..... :Smile:  

FOX has not yet tried and conviced Zimmerman however......so I guess they must be very racist after all.... :mid:  

The one blatently biased thing they did was to allow a long time friend of Zimmerman to speak openly on TV......and horror of horrors, he was a black man... :Confused:  

This friend told the world that the now larger than life racist Mr. Zimmerman was a really decent guy without a "racist" bone in his body and that he had often been involved in mentoring young black and Hispanic kids etc. Shocking I know.....can't possible be true....as Mr Gribbs excellent article says......it does not fit the script. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## FailSafe

Here's a video news report (from a major network) with some pretty damning evidence re: Trayvon Martin's actions:

Sanford Police Speak Out In Trayvon Martin Case - Yahoo! News

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## ENT

Separate the events of the night Martin was shot by Zimmerman from all reference to their individual past records and a clearer picture of the scenario emerges.

In most courts in the western world any reference to an accused's past is ruled by the presiding judge or magistrate not to be taken into consideration by a jury set to hear the case, as it would prejudice the defendant's and the plaintiffs rights to a fair trial.

Trial by media is not trial by law, it's only speculation.
Whether or not Martin or Zimmerman is seen as a "good" or "bad" guy is immaterial to the event itself.

So far, all we know of the night in question is that Zimmerman, against directive, wilfully stalked and eventually killed Martin.
That act was unlawful from the moment he stepped out of his car to follow Martin.

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## FailSafe

> So far, all we know of the night in question is that Zimmerman, against directive, wilfully stalked eventually killed Martin. That act was unlawful from the moment he stepped out of his car to follow Martin.


Actually, all we know is that a neighborhood-watch volunteer questioned someone who was from outside his gated community- he called 911 before approaching Martin, but was NOT given a lawful order not to approach him (listen to the tape- it was more of a suggestion, and 911 operators cannot give 'lawful orders' in any case)- there is zero proof that Zimmerman did anything 'unlawful'- in fact, it now appears that Martin was the aggressor (backed up by witnesses), and was slamming Zimmerman's head into the pavement (backed up by evidence) when he was shot.

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## ENT

Zimmerman was given a directive, advice not to follow Martin, by the 911 dispatcher.
He had no authority to act independently of his terms of office as a neighbourhood watch operative.

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## Boon Mee

With a single punch, the Orlando Sentinel, citing police sources, reported Monday, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer  climbed on top of [him] and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times, leaving him bloody and battered.

    That is the account Zimmerman gave police, the paper said, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say.

Martins use of social media provides insight into the true nature of the liberal elites darling little victim:

Correspondence with Martin on Twitter before he died alludes to an incident with a bus driver. Yu aint tell me you swung on a bus driver, Martins cousin wrote to him on Feb. 21.

    The same week, Martin was suspended for 10 days from Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School in North Miami-Dade.

That time it was for drugs. Last fall, he was suspended for vandalism. School officials also found him in possession of evidently stolen jewelry and burglary tools. His apparent penchant for burglary would explain his behaving in a way that attracted the attention of neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman.

Heres an example of what the angelic Trayvon, or NO_LIMIT_NIGGA as he liked to call himself, left behind on Twitter:

Trayvon's Tweets the Daily Caller

Trayvon Martin: George Zimmerman's account to police of the Trayvon Martin shooting. - Orlando Sentinel

Trayvon's parents paint portrait of typical teenager - KansasCity.com

One less thug punk... ::chitown::

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## FailSafe

> Zimmerman was given a directive, advice not to follow Martin, by the 911 dispatcher. He had no authority to act independently of his terms of office as a neighbourhood watch operative.


The exact quote from the 911 operator- 'We don't need you to do that.'  Advice, yes, but it was in no way a 'directive'.

As part of the neighborhood watch, he had every right to ask a non-resident (who was on private property- the general public does not have free access to gated communities- it is privately-owned land jointly held by the residents) what his business being there was.

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## robuzo

> Here's a video news report (from a major network) with some pretty damning evidence re: Trayvon Martin's actions:
> 
> Sanford Police Speak Out In Trayvon Martin Case - Yahoo! News


"pretty damning evidence  re: Trayvon Martin's actions"? Pretty damning evidence re your lack of intelligence, more like. What waste of time.

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## FailSafe

^

Yes, police reports and eyewitness accounts don't count as 'damning evidence'- your brainless liberal sensibilities are really funny. :Wink:

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## Boon Mee

And then there's this:

Hashim Nzinga, a New Black Panther Party leader who  gained attention when he announced a bounty on the shooter in the highly  publicized Trayvon Martin case, has been arrested, the DeKalb County  Sheriffs Office said.
 Nzinga, 49, was arrested for possession of a firearm by a convicted felon

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## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> Zimmerman was given a directive, advice not to follow Martin, by the 911 dispatcher. He had no authority to act independently of his terms of office as a neighbourhood watch operative.
> 
> 
> The exact quote from the 911 operator- 'We don't need you to do that.'  Advice, yes, but it was in no way a 'directive'.
> 
> As part of the neighborhood watch, he had every right to ask a non-resident (who was on private property- the general public does not have free access to gated communities- it is privately-owned land jointly held by the residents) what his business being there was.


Martin had every legal right to be there as a guest of his family.
Zimmerman exceeded his authority in stalking the youth.

Martin exercised his own right of self defence in avoiding being followed by a stranger, then confronting him, in his own legal locale.      It was up to Zimmermann to identify himself as a guardian of that locale.

That one point, of not either issuing a warning nor of identifying himself put Zimmerman in conflict with the law.

----------


## robuzo

> ^
> 
> Yes, police reports and eyewitness accounts don't count as 'damning evidence'- your brainless liberal sensibilities are really funny.


Quote something from that report that you think counts as evidence. The only thing I heard that I don't recall hearing elsewhere is that Martin's father said the crying for help was not his boy. Big fucking deal. Some wannabe vigilante pussy is crying for help one minute and blasting the guy he stalked the next. It had already been established that it was the killer who was crying for help after getting decked by a teenager.

Tell me this- had Martin thrown a punch and the fatassed armed loser fallen, cracked his head and died would you be defending the boy's right to defend himself?

----------


## bsnub

> And then there's this:
> 
> Hashim Nzinga, a New Black Panther Party leader who  gained attention when he announced a bounty on the shooter in the highly  publicized Trayvon Martin case, has been arrested, the DeKalb County  Sheriffs Office said.
>  Nzinga, 49, was arrested for possession of a firearm by a convicted felon


I will give you that one booners. Thats funny!  :Smile:

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## alwarner

Sounds like he took his "panther name" from his favourite bit of kit from KFC.

----------


## FailSafe

> Originally Posted by FailSafe
> 
> 
> ^
> 
> Yes, police reports and eyewitness accounts don't count as 'damning evidence'- your brainless liberal sensibilities are really funny.
> 
> 
> Quote something from that report that you think counts as evidence. The only thing I heard that I don't recall hearing elsewhere is that Martin's father said the crying for help was not his boy. Big fucking deal. Some wannabe vigilante pussy is crying for help one minute and blasting the guy he stalked the next. It had already been established that it was the killer who was crying for help after getting decked by a teenager.
> ...


The fact that it looks like it was Zimmerman who called for help and this was backed up by the parents is pretty big, considering how they said it was Martin at first (and went on national TV to proclaim this)- did you also hear on the link I provided that witnesses corroborated Zimmerman's account that Martin was the aggressor?  What do you think would be presented as evidence if there is ever a trial?

If eyewitness accounts said that Zimmerman attacked Martin and Martin defended himself, yes, I would defend Martin- however, it appears that isn't the case (which you should well know by now).

Here's what I believe happened- Zimmerman came across as a tough guy and possible rent-a-cop to Martin, who decided he wasn't going to take any shit from the guy- they got into a verbal altercation, which (it appears) advanced to a physical altercation due to Martin's actions (note that Zimmerman had already called the police and knew they were on their way)- Martin started slamming Zimmerman's head into the pavement (corroborated by witnesses and backed up by his injuries)- Zimmerman then shot Martin to prevent possibly being killed himself.

Let me ask you a question- if you were in a fight, even if you had started it and it was entirely your doing, would you let the other person kill you before you used deadly force to defend yourself?  If Martin was the one using deadly force, then Zimmerman was within his rights to defend himself using the same, even if he initiated the altercation.

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## bsnub

^ This case does appear to be swinging back in the other direction. At this point only time will tell what the outcome will be.

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## Boon Mee

In reality Saint Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman repeatedly bashing his head into the sidewalk according to multiple sources so it's clearly a case of self defense.  President B. Hussien Obama will probably give Zimmerman the Medal of Freedom at a White House ceremony soon.  :Smile:

----------


## Humbert

This has become one of those frenzied American lynch mob cases where supporters dig into positions before all the facts are known. Anderson Cooper gives the story 30 minutes every night followed by Piers Morgan covering the exact same ground for another 30 minutes. A total waste of time undeserving of this much media attention.

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## robuzo

^Have to disagree with you there. The issue is the "no retreat" provision, not this particular case. Look at the other cases in which people have walked after killing someone because they felt threatened- even after they gave pursuit. As much as given the history I understand the anger of black people in Florida, the conversation is being sidetracked. People on the left and right are talking about the problems with this law, which has been copied across the country.

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by FailSafe
> ...


Actually, there is nothing so far to suggest that Zimmerman initially got that close to Martin so he may not have _come ac_ross at all.    Zimmerman was following Martin after exiting his vehicle....that is when the call was recorded in which the dispatcher asked him if he was following.  When Zimmerman answered that he was....the dispatcher said "we don't need you to do that".  Zimmerman said "OK"

It would seem that Zimmerman broke off his contact at that time, and began walking back towards his vehicle......but Martin turned and came after him.   Zimmerman states that Martin approached *from behind* and asked "do you have a problem"  
Zimmerman answered "no".....Martin then says  "you do now" and punches him in the face......
Martin ends up on top of Zimmerman....pounding him into the pavement....Zimmerman is yelling for help....no help comes,  so he pulls out his 9mm in a state of panic and fires it into Martin.   (it has already been confirmed that Martin was shot in the chest from very close range..which would fit this description of the event)     Injuries on the face and the back of Zimmerman's head also fit this version of the event......not to mention at least one eye witness and several others who heard Zimmerman calling for help.

What is most disturbing about this case (apart from the life wasted)  is the speed and ease with which so many people jump on the racist bandwagon,  and now that they are on it, no amount of fresh information will make them get off....however much it may vindicate Zimmerman.    The power of those media images of the innocent black kid and the tough evil looking white bully just stick,  like shit to a blanket.  They are even reaching back to 1960's civil rights era for comparative supporting cases FFS.....cases which actually bear no resemblance at all to this one.....but in the world of race politics that won't matter I suppose.

----------


## Humbert

> ^Have to disagree with you there. The issue is the "no retreat" provision, not this particular case. Look at the other cases in which people have walked after killing someone because they felt threatened- even after they gave pursuit. As much as given the history I understand the anger of black people in Florida, the conversation is being sidetracked. People on the left and right are talking about the problems with this law, which has been copied across the country.


The first day it was about that and the legal issues were examined in depth but since then it has been all about whether or not racial epithets were uttered, conflicting eye-witness reports, school grades, testimonies by friends and familiy and accounts of previous behavior. If anything, the issue of the 'no retreat' provision has been marginalized.

----------


## FailSafe

> What is most disturbing about this case (apart from the life wasted) is the speed and ease with which so many people jump on the racist bandwagon, and now that they are on it, no amount of fresh information will make them get off....however much it may vindicate Zimmerman.


Very true- when I first heard about this case, I did think that Zimmerman was probably at fault- now it seems that it's not as clear (in fact, the new evidence- mostly the eyewitness reports, which I find credible- has really swayed my opinion) as it first appeared.

Did racism play a factor?  Most likely- a white kid would not have attracted as much attention in this particular gated community- however, while 'racial profiling' seems to have initiated the confrontation, that doesn't excuse Martin's reaction to being watched/questioned/followed by Zimmerman (who, as a resident of the community as well as part of the neighborhood watch, was perfectly justified in questioning anyone unfamiliar who happened to be there- Martin would also have been justified in telling him to 'Fuck off' rather than [allegedly] attacking him).

----------


## ENT

I was once involved in an almost similar situation where identifying who was the aggressor was a question.

On hearing a commotion, a woman and man arguing fiercely, yelling and a lot of bumping, outside,  I ran out to see a guy with a strangle hold on a woman struggling to break frree, so, I "clotheslined" him, and brought him down over my right knee with my right arm across his throat.
A simple move, as Failsafe might know.

When he hit the ground, I then sat on his chest, pinning his wrists to the ground and avoiding his kicks.
The cops arrived in minutes, as another neighbour had called them, and their squad car was in the immediate neighbourhood.

They arrived to see me holding the guy down, non violently.
I got up on their command and gently gave the assailant's wrist to them, which they declined to hold.
All witnesses to the event, the assailant, the victim, myself and a neighbour were separated and quizzed by the cops.

The assailant tried to charge me with assault, the police considered it.
The outcome was that the chap was finally deported in a straight jacket back to China.
He was a very bright bio chemist research scientist with mental health issues.

Now the point is, was I the assailant? For all six people present, the initial victim of the attempted strangulation,  the initial assailant, the neighbour who called the cops and the three cops, could say that I was on top of the guy on the floor, holding him down.

It took a week for the cops to decide not to press charges of assault against me.

----------


## FailSafe

> Now the point is, was I the assailant, for all six people present, the initial victim of the attempted strangulation, the initial assailant, the neighbour who called the cops and the three cops, could say that I was on top of the guy on the floor, holding him down.


The only relevant comparison would be whether the force you used in your particular incident was justified (and it sounds like it was)- if the guy had pulled a weapon or you felt your life was in imminent danger, would you have acted differently?  If you felt the only way to save your own life was to kill the guy, would you have done it?

I see the point you're making, but it's really not a question of who initiated the incident (Zimmerman or Martin)- it's whether one of them crossed the line to where it became a life-threatening situation.

----------


## ENT

Now, we're getting there!
Under normal circumstances, the initiator of the event is considered the prime assailant.

----------


## FailSafe

> Now, we're getting there!
> Under normal circumstances, the initiator of the event is considered the prime assailant.


So if I call you a nasty name, I'm the 'prime assailant' even if you kill me over it?

The person who initially used deadly force is to blame (and evidence points to Martin as having done so)- if Zimmerman was in fear for his life (even if he initiated contact with Martin) he was justified in defending himself.

I'm not saying Zimmerman doesn't bear any culpability here, but I do think he was within his rights.

----------


## ENT

I've never had to decide whether I must kill a man in combat yet.
I don't ever think that lethal force would ever be necessary using Aikido, but the situation could arise where, at close quarters, I could turn an assailant's weapon upon himself, very possible.

Not having served in the military, I have never had the unpleasant duty to end another person's life.

At long range, or in a surprise (blind) move at close quarters, sure, I could be easily targeted and killed.

----------


## FailSafe

^

If your head was being repeatedly slammed into the pavement by someone you believed was trying to kill you, and you were armed with a gun, would you have used it (and felt justified in doing so) to save your own life, even if you were the one who initiated contact?

I would have.

You could say that you would never have been in that position, but that's not the point- this guy was.

----------


## ENT

Name calling is not combat.
No evidence exists or is even suggested that Martin used lethal force!

Zimmerman did.

----------


## FailSafe

> No evidence exists or is even suggested that Martin used lethal force!


WHAT?  There are eyewitness accounts as well as Zimmerman's injuries to back up the claim that Martin used deadly force.

----------


## ENT

I've been smashed up pretty badly in the way you have just described and got out of it without using a gun.
I wasn't armed. Hard to say if I'd use a gun to kill my assailantif I had one on me.

I was instructed to shoot at non-life threatening points to stop a man, ie, first knees then points of shoulders.

I'm horrified to read of cops poking suspects out in the chest and head.
Apparently they are not now the marksmen that I once respected.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> No evidence exists or is even suggested that Martin used lethal force!
> 
> 
> WHAT?  There are eyewitness accounts as well as Zimmerman's injuries to back up the claim that Martin used deadly force.


There is not one single verified statement yet made to conclude who wsas the aggressor in the situation.
So far, it is all hearsay and conjecture.
The forensic report on the matter will finally be presented in court and no amount of public opinion is going to change that evidence.

Zimmerman refused to see the forensic doctor when requested at the time of the event.
That suggests something odd had occurred.

Trial by media or forum discussion will determine nothing, we don't have any evidence, on;y reports of reports and opinions that we can discuss.

No problem there, but this case will have some pretty serious knock on effects for the police and the law makers.

----------


## ENT

There were eye witnesses including cops who stated that they saw me on top of the guy who preferred caharges of assault against me in the situation I described a few posts back.
It didn't mean didly squat in the end.

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
> ^Have to disagree with you there. The issue is the "no retreat" provision, not this particular case. Look at the other cases in which people have walked after killing someone because they felt threatened- even after they gave pursuit. As much as given the history I understand the anger of black people in Florida, the conversation is being sidetracked. People on the left and right are talking about the problems with this law, which has been copied across the country.
> 
> 
> The first day it was about that and the legal issues were examined in depth but since then it has been all about whether or not racial epithets were uttered, conflicting eye-witness reports, school grades, testimonies by friends and familiy and accounts of previous behavior. If anything, the issue of the 'no retreat' provision has been marginalized.


Right, all I am saying is that doesn't make the incident unimportant, just that the national discussion, such as it is, misses the most salient point. I might not feel that way if I were black, but I might if I were able to step back and be objective. Blacks are killing blacks under dubious circumstances and getting away with it.

----------


## FailSafe

> There is not one single verified statement yet made to conclude who wsas the aggressor in the situation. So far, it is all hearsay and conjecture.


No- there are actual eyewitness accounts in the police report (eyewitness accounts are not 'hearsay' or 'conjecture'):

_The Orlando Sentinel is reporting  that police sources say Martin was the aggressor on Feb. 26, knocking  Zimmerman to the ground with a single punch and then climbing on top of  the 28-year-old neighborhood watch captain and slamming the back of his  head into the ground. Police say this account, given by Zimmerman, is  supported by eyewitnesses, according to the Sentinel's report.

One  such witness reportedly told police that he saw Martin on top of  Zimmerman, striking the man, while Zimmerman cried out for help. The  attack left Zimmerman bloodied, police sources told the Sentinel, and  led him to fire at Martin in self-defense._ 

Trayvon Martin case: Police release new details that help George Zimmerman's claim that he fired in self defense. - Orlando Sentinel

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> No evidence exists or is even suggested that Martin used lethal force!
> 
> 
> WHAT?  There are eyewitness accounts as well as Zimmerman's injuries to back up the claim that Martin used deadly force.


No, there aren't, and Zimmerman's injuries didn't require him to go to hospital.

Nonetheless, any physical encounter can turn out deadly. I personally know two guys who killed other men in fights by accident. That Martin was a willing, to some degree, participant means that this probably wouldn't hold up as even second-degree murder, but the fact that Zimmerman needlessly engaged in an encounter while carrying a deadly weapon and only needed to defend himself as a result of his own willing actions make this probably a case of reckless manslaughter- but for a stupid Florida legal provision, in the absence of which Zimmerman (and many others in similar cases in Florida) may not have been quite so bold in the first place.

----------


## FailSafe

> No, there aren't, and Zimmerman's injuries didn't require him to go to hospital.


Yes, there are, and he suffered a broken nose and injuries to the back of the head where it was slammed into the ground.






> but the *fact* that Zimmerman needlessly engaged in an encounter while carrying a deadly weapon and only needed to defend himself as a result of his own willing actions make this probably a case of reckless manslaughter


Talk about conjecture...

----------


## Humbert

I doubt whether the validity of the Florida law will ever come into question. No arrest was made based upon the judgment of the the investigating officers that Zimmerman, by his own account of the situation, was indeed acting in self-defense. Eye-witness accounts are often unreliable and contradictory so unless some solid evidence is presented that confirms that Zimmerman was assaulted we will continue to have a media orgy over this.

----------


## robuzo

> I doubt whether the validity of the Florida law will ever come into question. No arrest was made based upon the judgment of the the investigating officers that Zimmerman, by his own account of the situation, was indeed acting in self-defense. Eye-witness accounts are often unreliable and contradictory so unless some solid evidence is presented that confirms that Zimmerman was assaulted we will continue to have a media orgy over this.


By "validity of the Florida law" do you mean its application as it stands in this case or whether or not it is a valid law in the first place? The authors of the law and the governor who signed it (all R) are already saying it needs to be reexamined because it wasn't meant to apply in cases such as this. I'll have to look and see if anyone replied to the question I posed earlier- I think if Zimmerman had been killed the law might just as well have protected Martin, although whether the south Dixie cracker cops would have let him proceed to his dad's house with a dead white guy lying there is a matter of question.

----------


## Humbert

> The authors of the law and the governor who signed it (all R) are already saying it needs to be reexamined because it wasn't meant to apply in cases such as this


I had not heard that Robuzo. If so I withdraw my opinion.

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> but the *fact* that Zimmerman needlessly engaged in an encounter while carrying a deadly weapon and only needed to defend himself as a result of his own willing actions make this probably a case of reckless manslaughter
> 
> 
> Talk about conjecture...


Care to elaborate? Take as much as time as you need to think. Are you saying Zimmerman really needed to follow Martin or engage him in any way after he had called the cops and given his report? That he didn't put himself into that situation? Someone forced him to follow Martin- or was he told he didn't need to do that, but actually, he did?

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> The authors of the law and the governor who signed it (all R) are already saying it needs to be reexamined because it wasn't meant to apply in cases such as this
> 
> 
> I had not heard that Robuzo. If so I withdraw my opinion.


I quoted Jeb Bush, then-governor, above. The right-wingers around here didn't seem to notice. Lemme see. . .here's one link citing Dennis Baxley, one of the authors:
Op-Ed: Why I Wrote 'Stand Your Ground' Law : NPR
CONAN: And again, we don't know all the details of the confrontation. What makes you think that Stand Your Ground does not apply to George Zimmerman's defense?

BAXLEY: Well, simply because if you carefully read the statute, which most of the critics have not, and read the legislative analysis, there's nothing in this statute that authorizes you to pursue or confront other people. *If anything, this law would have protected the victim in this case; it could have.*
---
I take that last line as suggesting what I have- that Martin might have gotten off had he killed Zimmerman.

----------


## FailSafe

> Care to elaborate? Take as much as time as you need to think. Are you saying Zimmerman really needed to follow Martin or engage him in any way after he had called the cops and given his report? That he didn't put himself into that situation? Someone forced him to follow Martin- or was he told he didn't need to do that, but actually, he did?


According to some reports, he was indeed walking away from Martin when he was sucker-punched and pummeled- as a community watch volunteer and resident of the gated community, he was within his rights to question someone unfamiliar in the area (why do you think they have a 'community watch'?  Because they've had problems before)- Zimmerman isn't a policeman and isn't bound by the same restraints of probable cause when it comes to approaching someone (and Martin wasn't bound by having to obey Zimmerman's orders or questions- he could have just walked away).

Should Zimmerman have stayed away from Martin?  In retrospect, absolutely- was he wrong for asking him his reason for being within the gated community without being in the company of a resident?  No, I don't think so.

----------


## robuzo

^Representative Baxley disagrees with you.

----------


## ENT

Martin was talking with his girl friend on the phone and told her that someone was following him.
The call ended abruptly as Martin was interrupted by Zimmerman's approach and the tussle started 

Zimmerman had approached Martin with his gun drawn and Martin reportedly tried to grab the gun off him, a stranger stalking him in the darkness, which is what I would do if I had the opportunity in that situation, disarm the guy, who wasn't a cop, a stranger. 

Smacking a man  over would be par for the course if one could, when assaulted and threatened with a gun.

----------


## robuzo

^A sucker punch in the nose is a rare thing. A 17-year-old deciding to be a badass isn't.

----------


## FailSafe

> ^Representative Baxley disagrees with you.


I don't think this is a case where the 'stand your ground' law even applies- asking someone what their business is on private property isn't illegal, having harsh words with someone isn't illegal, and protecting yourself by any means necessary when attacked with deadly force isn't illegal.

Nothing I read showed Zimmerman doing anything to merit an attack of deadly force by Martin- if it turns out that Zimmerman was the aggressor (rather than just the initiator) that would change my opinion, but as it stands now I think Martin was the one who brought things to their end.

A community watch volunteer asked a stranger his business- personally, I would have just said, 'My dad lives here' and moved on, and I'd be happy that someone is keeping their eye on things.

----------


## ENT

How would you know if he was a community watch officer?

----------


## FailSafe

> How would you know if he was a community watch officer?


What's the difference?  He may not have identified himself as one, but he wouldn't have any particular powers in any case (he would have a duty to keep his eye on things like every other resident, but he might also have a night-shift every once in a while where he volunteers to sit out or ride around in his car- there are always a lot of volunteers for various committees in gated communities in the States)- any resident would still have the right to question a stranger on their private property- that stranger just wouldn't be compelled to answer (as if they were speaking to a policeman).

If, as you said, he approached Martin with his gun drawn, that would put things in a completely different light- do you have a reference for that?

----------


## FailSafe

I own a house in a gated community in the States (my mom lives there alone)- it's a very low-crime area and there's no 'community watch' in place (though it's full of old busy-bodies and you can't make a move in public without a dozen pairs of eyes on you :Wink: )- if I saw some hoodie-wearing, gold-tooth-sporting black kid walking around and I had never seen him before, I'd want to know what he was up to- if I was outside and within earshot, I would probably say 'Hello' and ask him (politely) if he was looking for someone- if he said anything other than 'I'm hear to see xxx or do xxx' I might watch him or follow him to make sure he's not a problem (I wouldn't be armed or call the cops without justification).

Now, this guy could tell me to go fuck myself and be well within his rights- I'm a white guy who's hassling a black guy just for being in his neighborhood- if he responds anywhere past that (physically), am I still in the wrong for having initiated the encounter?

Is that prejudicial or racial profiling? Yeah, I guess so- I'm no monument to social justice- I would, however, like to know who's walking around my neighborhood if they aren't residents- if it turned out he was there for a legitimate purpose (or he lived there) I would say, 'Sorry- I just didn't know you'- if he thought I was a racist for that, I could live with it.

----------


## ENT

If Martin tried to get the gun off Zimmerman, the implication is that Zimmerman had drawn the weapon for Martin to be able to see it.

If Zimmerman had not, how did he manage to draw the gun and shoot Martin?
At which point did he draw the gun?
While stalking him?

If he was stalking him, a suspicious character up to no good, as he thought he'd be stupid not to have the weapon ready

Did Zimmerman draw the gun while on his back struggling, with Martin on top?
If he could draw the gun in that position, he could have shot Martin from another, lower angle.

Martin though is reported to have been struggling to take the gun off Zimmerman.
Reportedly, Zimmerman shoots Martin twice.
Also, the gun was recovered with a full magazine, reportedly.

All a bit odd.

----------


## pickel

> Also, the gun was recovered with a full magazine, reportedly.


Only one bullet was fired, no? He may have chambered an extra one, as well as having a full clip.

----------


## ENT

At the center of the furor is George Zimmerman, the 28-year-old community watch man who has admitted to chasing Martin down and shooting him twice. Zimmerman has not been arrested by local authorities, on the grounds that he was acting in self-defense.

Read more: Meet The Man Who Killed Trayvon Martin ? And Hasn't Been Arrested For It - Business Insider

Regarding the full clip, he could have reloaded the clip after the event, also.

----------


## pickel

^
If he indeed fired two bullets, then he had to have reloaded.

----------


## robuzo

Could have been an accidental shooting, too; maybe had one in the chamber, meant to threaten but discharged the weapon by mistake in the heat of the action. The weapon was a Kel Tec 9, which from what I can find online is a double-action automatic, meaning even if the hammer was down if he squeezed the trigger it would fire.

----------


## ENT

Reloading the gun is not a natural thing to do after having just shot a guy dead, unless you wanted to change something,....

Martin's girlfriend
Benjamin Crump, the Martin family lawyer, says Martin's girlfriend's account of what happened connects the dots and destroys Zimmerman's claims of self-defense.
The girl, who did not want to be identified, said she was on the phone with the teen before the shooting.
When Zimmerman got closer to Martin, she told her boyfriend to run, but Martin told her that he was not going to run, she said.
"What are you stopping me for?" Martin asked Zimmerman, according to the girl.
"What are you doing around here?" Zimmerman asked in response.
The girl said she then got the impression that an altercation was taking place and that someone had pushed Martin, because the headset fell out of his ear, and the phone shut off.


http://edition.cnn.com/2012/03/27/ju...ses/index.html

Zimmerman's friend
Joe Oliver said he spoke with his friend Zimmerman on Monday. He filled Oliver in on what happened between the time Martin came face to face with him and when the gun was fired -- the part that's not all clear.
Oliver said he could not divulge what Zimmerman said, just that the gun went off.
Corey, the state attorney, was asked whether that meant the shooting might have been accidental.
"We look into that in every shooting case," Corey said.

----------


## jingoist

I in the chamber and a full clip. It is not rocket science.  :Smile:

----------


## ENT

Starting to look like an accidental shooting.                                                                                                                 But then two shots?
So Zimmerman reportedly admits.

----------


## robuzo

Two shots wouldn't likely be accidental. I haven't seen that report- link?

----------


## ENT

This is a messy case.
The main witness, Zimmerman is the only one who knows exactly what went on.

He looked like any other bloke that night, red jacket, blue jeans.
Drove a SUV.

Didn't look like a cop or security.
Martin didn't know who he was, just someone following him, *inside a gated community.*
He had no reason to run away, he was safe inside that gated community.

Why would he attack someone in there?
Completely illogical.
He'd be caught for sure, unless he ran out through the gates, then his Dad's girlfriend would know.
He'd have to be completely stupid to hassle anyone in there, suicidal, a no win, no brainer thing to do.

The fact that the whole story is full of contradictions and irregularities puts the spotlight on Zimmerman and the police department, especially since the local police chief had to resign over the deal for not investigating the crime appropriately and not even charging Zimmerman.

I don't like his prospects at all.

----------


## robuzo

Just saw this:
Trayvon Martin Investigator Wanted to Charge George Zimmerman With Manslaughter - ABC News
The lead homicide investigator in the shooting of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin recommended that neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter the night of the shooting, multiple sources told ABC News.

But Sanford, Fla., Investigator Chris Serino was instructed to not press charges against Zimmerman because the state attorney's office headed by Norman Wolfinger determined there wasn't enough evidence to lead to a conviction, the sources told ABC News.

Police brought Zimmerman into the station for questioning for a few hours on the night of the shooting, said Zimmerman's attorney, despite his request for medical attention first. Ultimately they had to accept Zimmerman's claim of self defense. He was never charged with a crime.

Serino filed an affidavit on Feb. 26, the night that Martin was shot and killed by Zimmerman, that stated he was unconvinced Zimmerman's version of events.

----------


## ENT

> Two shots wouldn't likely be accidental. I haven't seen that report- link?


See my post # 213 above.

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
> Two shots wouldn't likely be accidental. I haven't seen that report- link?
> 
> 
> See my post # 213 above.


Not seeing the "two shots" report corroborated anywhere. Mostly I am seeing "single gunshot wound" or "a gunshot wound."

----------


## ENT

Robuzo, the two links to the report.
                                                                                                                                                                   Zimmermann reportedly admitted firing his gun twice,


Zimmerman, 28, has not been charged in connection with the incident, claimed he shot Martin twice in self defense.

*Link*
Trayvon Martin 'Hoodie' Rallies Reach North Texas | NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth



*And*
At the center of the furor is George Zimmerman, the 28-year-old community watch man who has admitted to chasing Martin down and shooting him twice. Zimmerman has not been arrested by local authorities, on the grounds that he was acting in self-defense.

Read more: Meet The Man Who Killed Trayvon Martin ? And Hasn't Been Arrested For It - Business Insider

----------


## FailSafe

Only one shot was fired- the 'two shots' report was a rumor (based on the Martin family's lawyers claiming they could hear two shots on the 911 tape):

_SANFORD — The handgun that killed Trayvon Martin,  an unarmed black 17-year-old, was fired once — not twice — by a  neighborhood crime watch volunteer, according to information obtained by  the Orlando Sentinel._

_Police found a single shell casing at the  scene, and when they seized George Zimmerman's handgun, a Kel Tec 9 mm,  its magazine was full, according to a source close to the investigation.The only bullet missing was the one in the chamber, the source said._

_That  contrasts with the graphic interpretation that lawyers for the victim's  family made Friday night after listening to 911 calls from neighbors  who heard or saw a fight between Zimmerman and Trayvon._

_Lawyers Natalie Jackson and Benjamin Crump insisted then that they  could hear two shots on one 911 call, a warning shot and a kill shot,  and that that proved Zimmerman was a murderer._

_"You hear a shot, a clear shot then you hear a 17-year-old boy begging for his life then you hear a second shot," Jackson said._

_Those statements fueled a great deal of anger and frustration among those following the case in cyberspace. Twitter, Facebook and other social media exploded with news that two shots were fired._


Trayvon Martin shooting: College students to rally at courthouse for Trayvon - chicagotribune.com

----------


## S Landreth

Tough-minded prosecutor in spotlight on Trayvon Martin case

State attorney Angela Corey indicated that her office  not a grand jury  will decide whether to bring charges against George Zimmerman in the death of Trayvon Martin.

JACKSONVILLE -- The prosecutor at the center of the national firestorm over whether the man who killed Trayvon Martin should be charged in his death said Tuesday shes not likely to need a grand jury to make the decision for her.

More probable, she said, is that shell be the one to decide.

I always lean towards moving forward without needing the grand jury in a case like this, Angela Corey, the state attorney assigned to the case by Gov. Rick Scott, told The Herald/Times. I foresee us being able to make a decision, and move on it on our own.

Corey has built a reputation over the past three years as state attorney for Duval, Nassau and Clay counties as a hard-nosed, tough-minded and strong-willed prosecutor, and a move to decide on her own whether or not to charge George Zimmerman appears to be right in character.

In Florida, the decision on whether to indict someone in capital cases must be made by a grand jury. In all lesser cases the decision to file charges is routinely made by prosecutors. But in highly controversial or difficult cases, prosecutors often defer to a grand jury, leaving the politically charged decision to a panel of citizens.

snip

Corey disagrees. Its not about race, its about wrong, she said, flanked by black community leaders who have supported her over the years.

Since taking over the Trayvon case Thursday night, Corey has given her other cases a lower priority and spent most of her time working with a small team to dig into the details surrounding the teenagers death. The team took over the case after Wolfinger stepped aside to avoid the appearance of a conflict of interest.

Corey said her investigators are painstakingly examining all the evidence, from Zimmermans gun to his clothes to witness statements to the autopsy on Trayvons corpse. Once done, Corey said, she envisions her team will likely decide whether or not to bring charges, although she has not completely ruled out taking the case to a grand jury.

a lot more to the story and Corey here: Tough-minded prosecutor in spotlight on Trayvon Martin case - Florida - MiamiHerald.com

----------


## guyinthailand

> I can say that it is highly unlikely that Zimmerman would have ever let the kid get that close to him without drawing his pistol. This simply did not happen.


As Ayoob points out in my posts above a person* 21 feet away--7 meters--* from you with your concealed gun can get to you with his knife and stab you before you have a chance to lift your shirt, unsnap your holster, draw your weapon, take the safety off (if you remember under stress) and fire it accurately.

I know, because Ayoob had all of us 'role play' this scenario.  

It is frightening how very little time it takes someone to run at you from 7 meters away and be on top of you before you even have a chance to react. 

Ayoob has established beyond a doubt that most times a knife-weilding guy 7 meters from you can indeed get to you with your concealed gun and stab you before you can employ your weapon (or in some cases in my class the gun-guy was firing his gun as he was being stabbed).

----------


## guyinthailand

> Martin exercised his own right of self defence in avoiding being followed by a stranger, then confronting him, in his own legal locale.      It was up to Zimmermann to identify himself as a guardian of that locale.



You didn't listen to Ayoob in the videos above.

There is no right of self defence "in avoiding being followed by a stranger".

----------


## guyinthailand

> Let me ask you a question- if you were in a fight, even if you had started it and it was entirely your doing, would you let the other person kill you before you used deadly force to defend yourself?  If Martin was the one using deadly force, then Zimmerman was within his rights to defend himself using the same, even if he initiated the altercation.


If you are carrying a gun and you start the fight and/or (and this is important in the eyes of the law) ESCALATE the confrontation, then you can be held liable.

Example: you are carrying a concealed gun.  Thug spits in your girlfriend's face.  You push the thug.  The thug pulls out a knife.  You pull your gun and shoot the thug.

You could very well be looking at a long prison term.  You will almost certainly have a hundred thousand dollar legal bill.

----------


## FailSafe

^

If the reports are true, Martin made the first violent move- Zimmerman hasn't even been charged (yet).

Zimmerman initiated contact- I don't know how that will end up playing if it goes to court.  

I see your point, though.

----------


## guyinthailand

^True, but if the prosecutor can show Zimmerman ESCALATED the confrontation, then he did not simply employ self-defence. But 'initiating contact' is not escalation.

And if Martin really did try and grab a gun being held on him, then the person holding the gun (Zimmerman) could argue that he thought Martin was trying to wrestle the gun from him to use it on him (Zimmerman).

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> 
>  Martin exercised his own right of self defence in avoiding being followed by a stranger, then confronting him, in his own legal locale.      It was up to Zimmermann to identify himself as a guardian of that locale.
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't listen to Ayoob in the videos above.
> ...


Don't talk shit man.
Everyone has the right to self defence.
Which planet do you live on?

Martin walked away, did not run, if reports are correct.
If Zimmerman approached him, Martin also had the right to self defence through confronting his approach.

I don't know which discipline you practice, but in mine we turn to face the attacker, it is a confrontation, and part of self defence.
What would you do, turn your back upon your attacker?

By the way, Ayoob is not my sensei, he doesn't practice my form, and neither do you.
We learn to stand our ground and take the knife or gun off the assailant.

There is only one knife man I know that I would not do that with and he is identifiable by his stance as he's an expert and the only option there is to run like fwk away.

In Martin's case, the gun came out at close quarters. He had no Aikido skills so was unable to disarm Zimmerman.
Ayoob's lessons are not relevant to situation that Martin and Zimmerman were in, so what's your beef exactly?

----------


## robuzo

double post

----------


## FailSafe

Now some people are saying that Zimmerman is using his father's political clout (his old man is a retired Virginia State Supreme Court judge) to avoid having charges filed.

This story just keeps getting better.

----------


## robuzo

^Really? You find that interesting? 

I've posted two things that I thought you might find interesting- that the state rep who wrote the bill thinks Martin could have used the provision if the shoe had been on the other foot, so to speak, and that the lead investigator wants to charge Zimmerman with manslaughter. Nothing to say about that, but you find the BS speculation about why Zimmerman isn't being charged interesting. Strange priorities.

----------


## FailSafe

> ^Really? You find that interesting? 
> 
> I've posted two things that I thought you might find interesting- that the state rep who wrote the bill thinks Martin could have used the provision if the shoe had been on the other foot, so to speak, and that the lead investigator wants to charge Zimmerman with manslaughter. Nothing to say about that, but you find the BS speculation about why Zimmerman isn't being charged interesting. Strange priorities.


I read the story you posted (twice)- the lead detective initially wanted to charge Zimmerman within hours of the event- his superior over-ruled him- that was over a month ago and charges still haven't been filed (and a lot more evidence has been presented since then)- it sounds like the lead detective was in error in his initial assessment.

As far as what I find 'interesting', who are you to make any judgments?  I'm commenting on the topic-at-hand,and I think I've positively added to the discussion (without sinking into ad hominem)- try to be a bit less arrogant in your tone and you might be taken more seriously.

----------


## robuzo

Yes, OK, you are interested in the gossipy trivia that feeds your white guy persecution complex. Got it. 

Oh, and this "it sounds like the lead detective was in error in his initial assessment" is further evidence of your comprehension issues:
Trayvon Martin Case: Police Wanted Warrant To Arrest George Zimmerman, Prosecutor Says
Serino told MSNBC Tuesday night that he was not at liberty to discuss the case, but he feels very encouraged by the new investigation into the shooting, and he was "looking forward to the truth coming out."

----------


## FailSafe

> Yes, OK, you are interested in the gossipy trivia that feeds your white guy persecution complex. Got it. Oh, and this "it sounds like the lead detective was in error in his initial assessment" is further evidence of your comprehension issues: Trayvon Martin Case: Police Wanted Warrant To Arrest George Zimmerman, *Prosecutor Says Serino told MSNBC Tuesday night that he was not at liberty to discuss the case, but he feels very encouraged by the new investigation into the shooting, and he was "looking forward to the truth coming out.*"


My comprehension issues? That quote wasn't in the first article you posted (twice).

well, we'll see what happens- Zimmerman may very well be charged due to the furor over this case, but, going by the evidence I've read so far, I still feel Zimmerman was justified.

If Serino has something new to tell us, maybe I'll change my opinion- at this point in time I don't know what he's alluding to (and neither do you)- as I said before, his initial assessment was over-ruled by his boss- we'll see if that happens again.

My 'white guy persecution complex'- you really have problems having a discussion on a civil level- that says a lot more about you than it does about me.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Originally Posted by guyinthailand
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't listen to Ayoob in the videos above.
> 
> There is no right of self defence "in avoiding being followed by a stranger".
> 
> ...


Ayoob's lessons are absolutely relevant here, either for Martin OR Zimmerman.  If Martin's family can show Zimmerman was threatening Martin for no reason then Martin had a right of self-defence.    A guy with a gun from x feet away saying "I'm going to kill you, boy" is indeed a threat and deserving of self-defense.  Is this what happened?  Maybe we'll find out, maybe not.

Like I said, there is no "right to self defense through confronting his approach".

If, however, Martin's family can prove Zimmerman initiated the 'attack' then..ok.

But that's not what you said.  You said "approach". You said "in avoiding being followed by a stranger"

The law doesn't recognize harming another ONLY because that person is 'approaching' you or "following" you.

You can talk all you want about your sensei, etc.

But I'm talking about the law.  

And, yes, I believe in self-defense.  I've studied hand-to-hand, carry a glock (with no round in the chamber, by the way) and I carry a knife or two.

I suggest you not advise anyone on the right to use lethal force, because you got it all wrong.

Little Grasshopper, here it is in nutshell:

_You only have the right to lethal force when your life or the lives of other innocents is in IMMEDIATE and otherwise UNAVOIDABLE danger of grave bodily harm._

"Immediate" means the threat is happening right now.  "Unavoidable" means you can't run away from the danger.

----------


## Minnie Maugham

Pfft. After reading the comments here, my previous respect for the intelligence of robuzo & pickel has shrivelled to the size of a nit's diaper filling. Their (and other posters') calling judgement on a case with which only media hoopla was the evidence is ludicrous. I especially liked robuzo's post #83 where he says he had not commented until now, when in fact he had made several comments previously. You all jumped to racial sides before the facts were in. You believed the mass media press.
The leftie media skewed this story, with Sharpton et al firing it to a fevered pitch. 

WTF is a White Latino? Outdated photos of the black thug as a cute little kid, while Zimmerman's photo shows him as a fat swarthy f*k? The kid's mother patenting his name to make cash?

All you leftist posters making racial slurs and summations before the facts are in. FOR SHAME. 

I used to respect albeit disagree with most comments from the elite lefties like pickel & holier-than-thou robuzo (hey, my ex lives in Roca Baton, mebbe you're neighbours? Nah, he's a WAY-WEALTHY investment banker), but after this trash talk, I will look at these posters with the disdain they deserve.

----------


## ENT

*What I said,*
"Martin walked away, did not run, if reports are correct.
*If* Zimmerman approached him, Martin also had the right to self defence through confronting his approach."

*Because,* 
Zimmerman reportedly approached Martin in a suspicious manner, this reported in his telephone conversation with his girlfriend as the situation was developing.

*You said. *  


> Like I said, there is no "right to self defense through confronting his approach".
> 
> The law doesn't recognize harming another *ONLY because* that person is 'approaching' you or "following" you.
> 
> _You only have the right to lethal force when your life or the lives of other innocents is in IMMEDIATE and otherwise UNAVOIDABLE danger of grave bodily harm._
> 
> *"Immediate"* means the threat is happening right now.  *"Unavoidable"* means you can't run away from the danger
> 
> *And, yes, I believe in self-defense.  I've studied hand-to-hand, carry a glock (with no round in the chamber, by the way) and I carry a knife or two.*
> ...




As reported, *Martin felt that he was in immediate danger of threat*, as he told his girlfriend that an unidentifiable person was following him. His girlfriend advised him to run away, Martin negated the idea.

There is a very good reason for not running, as in most situations, to be seen doing so can imply guilt or fear and cause the stalker to re-double his efforts. The stalker if armed, might then shoot at his quarry, as occurs countless times, whether the stalker is an ordinary civilian or a cop.

So Martin had the right to avoid, hide from, or defend himself from the suspicious stalker who was dressed as an ordinary man. 
If Martin was trapped and could not walk or run away, his only remaining option would have been to turn and confront the perceived danger.

He did just that, and asked Zimmerman what did he want of him, as reported by Martin's girlfriend.
A struggle then ensued, the phone call terminated abruptly, and, during the struggle, a high pitched male voice was heard yelling for help, then it was cut short as a shot was fired.
Zimmerman had shot Martin dead.

Martin did not use any weapon, and did not use lethal force, as was evident from Zimmerman's physical condition.
A broken nose and a fat lip and a some superficial cuts to the back of the head don't indicate the use of lethal force in any way.
If Martin was a trained boxer or martial artist, or some one trained in unarmed combat, such as a soldier, a blow from him to Zimmerman's head could be construed as lethal force, far more than a broken nose would result in such force.

As for your carrying a Glock(presumably concealed) "and a knife or two " (also concealed), shows that your studies and practice of self defence are superficial and ineffective in reality.   :Smile: 

You obviously don't know how to defend yourself at close quarters without using a weapon. :mid: 

I suggest that you *never* offer *any* advice on self defence because of your propensity to carry concealed, an assortment of deadly weapons.

----------


## S Landreth

> Little Grasshopper, here it is in nutshell:
> 
> _You only have the right to lethal force when your life or the lives of other innocents is in IMMEDIATE and otherwise UNAVOIDABLE danger of grave bodily harm._
> 
> "Immediate" means the threat is happening right now.  "Unavoidable" means you can't run away from the danger.



Not necessary in the state of Floridah. You can run them down and kill 'em (then go home and go to sleep, wake up the next day and sell the radios you took from the guy you just stabbed to death). From yesterdays news here,.........


A man charged with murder had no choice but to defend himself with lethal force against a burglar he had chased down, a judge has ruled, citing the Stand Your Ground law.

A bag of stolen car radios  swung during a confrontation  amounted to a lethal threat to a Little Havana man who chased down a thief and stabbed him to death, a Miami-Dade judge said in her written ruling Tuesday in dismissing the murder charge against the man.

Circuit Judge Beth Bloom issued her written ruling six days after deciding that based on Floridas Stand Your Ground law, Greyston Garcia was immune from prosecution in the killing of Pedro Roteta, who swung the four- to six-pound bag at Garcia just before the stabbing.

Last weeks ruling drew widespread attention at a time when critics are assailing Floridas self-defense law in the wake of the fatal shooting of a Miami Gardens youth, Trayvon Martin, 17, by a self-appointed neighborhood watchman.

Strange: Bag of car radios ruled a deadly threat in Stand Your Ground decision - Miami-Dade - MiamiHerald.com

----------


## Boon Mee

Here We Go Black Rapper Calls For Race Riots Over Trayvon Martin Killing

Black rapper Zoeja released All Black in my Hoodie and calls for race riots.
ALL BLACK IN MY HOODIE BY ZOEJA FEAT BLACK PANTHER PARTY AND MALCOLM X TRAYVON MARTIN

ALL BLACK IN MY HOODIE BY ZOEJA FEAT BLACK PANTHER PARTY AND MALCOLM X TRAYVON MARTIN.wmv - YouTube

Burn the house and everybody in it.
Drive around in my Chevy
All black in my hoodie
Lets start a riot

Lets keep it real
Those crackers dont love us
If we dont do sh*t
at least that cracker
6 months later theyre gonna kill another brother

https://twitter.com/#!/zoejajean/sta...29795998511104

Lovely...just fvckin' lovely...

----------


## ENT

Almost anything can be tuned into a lethal weapon.                                                   

"She strikes Patrick in the back of the head with the frozen lamb leg, killing him."

Lamb to the Slaughter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pass me the mint sauce, Mary.

----------


## Minnie Maugham

^  :Eek:  :Eek:  :Eek:   :rofl:

----------


## S Landreth

Zimmerman on the night he killed Trayvon

No blood, on Zimmerman. No broken nose.

----------


## FailSafe

He certainly doesn't look as injured as the police report led me to believe- all I can see is a small mark on the back of his head-on his nose looks fine.

----------


## kingwilly

*US congressman thrown out for wearing hoodie*
                Posted            March 29, 2012 09:38:33            
  *         Photo:*        Bobby Rush wore the hood and sunglasses to demonstrate his outrage at the case (Reuters/Pool)       
*Related Story:*        Slain teen's parents take case to Washington
*Related Story:*        Obama urges 'soul-searching' after teen's killing
*Related Story:*        One million sign petition over teen's shooting
*Related Story:*        'Million-hoodie' march against teen's shooting
 *Map:*  United States  

   A US congressman has been escorted from the House of  Representatives for wearing a hooded sweatshirt to honour a black  teenager who was shot dead last month.
Protests have been held  across the US to demand justice for 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, who was  killed by neighbourhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman in Florida.
Mr  Zimmerman claims self-defence and has not been charged, but rights  groups say it was proof of racial profiling of blacks in America.
Bobby  Rush, an Illinois Democrat who was a prominent civil rights activist  during the 1960s, wore the hood and sunglasses to demonstrate his  outrage at the case.
Mr Martin was wearing a hooded jacket when he was shot.
 		       Just because someone wears a hoodie does not make them a hoodlum.

 		       Bobby Rush
 
"Too often this violent act which resulted in the  murder of Trayvon Martin is repeated in the streets of our nation," Mr  Rush said.
"Racial profiling has to stop ... Just because someone wears a hoodie does not make them a hoodlum."
Mr Rush was interrupted by Gregg Harper of Mississippi, who was the acting speaker of the House at the time.
After pounding his gavel to demand silence, Mr Harper told Mr Rush to remove his hood or leave the room.
"The  chair must remind members that clause five of rule 17 prohibits the  wearing of hats in the chamber when the House is in session," Mr Harper  said.
US president Barack Obama, the nation's first  African-American president, stepped into the highly charged debate last  week, calling for "national soul-searching" over the tragedy.
"If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon," he said in an unusually personal take on the case.
  *         Photo:*        Supporters of Trayvon Martin rally in New York (AFP: Mario Tama)       

*ABC/AFP*

----------


## ENT

Zimmerman refused medical assistance on the night of his arrest, not seeking it until the next day.

If he'd had a broken nose from that fight, it would have hurt and been obvious, the nose tip cartilage displaced to one side or bruising to the bridge of the nose or severe bruising around the eye sockets.

Having his head repeatedly slammed onto the (presumably) hard ground would result in repeated bruising and/or laceration.
He'd know about it, and would have had a sore head and a headache at least, and in severe trauma, would be disorientated.

The video clip shows nothing like any of those signs, nose looks fine, no displacement of the cartilage or bruising/
The cops would have picked up on those points of interest straight away if they were at all obvious.

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by guyinthailand
> 
> 
> Little Grasshopper, here it is in nutshell:
> 
> _You only have the right to lethal force when your life or the lives of other innocents is in IMMEDIATE and otherwise UNAVOIDABLE danger of grave bodily harm._
> 
> "Immediate" means the threat is happening right now.  "Unavoidable" means you can't run away from the danger.
> 
> ...


Honestly, I don't think the crackers who wrote the "Stand Your Ground" law- not to mention the dingbat Bush who signed it- really understood the implications. That's pretty obvious from their reaction to this incident. The case above is amazing- "After he swung the bag at me I had to get close enough to knife him." I had read about it before but thought they had been grappling. 

I don't think a lot of the posters here get how wacky things have become in Florida, SL. I'm having trouble getting my head around it myself.

----------


## robuzo

Well now, this is fucked up and totally wrong: Tweet gives wrong address for Trayvon's shooter
An elderly couple in Sanford, Fla., have temporarily fled their home after the address was erroneously tweeted as belonging to George Zimmerman, the man who shot and killed Trayvon Martin.
-snip-
The 70-year-old woman, a school cafeteria worker, and her 72-year-old husband have moved into a hotel after getting hate mail and unwanted visitors, their son, Chip Humble, tells the newspaper.

The Smoking Gun reports that the address was retweeted by director Spike Lee to his 240,000 followers. CNN reports that Lee has since taken it down from his Twitter site.
---
What an asshole. Vigilantism is wrong so let's have more vigilantes.

----------


## bsnub

This little video unravels Zimmermans account of events;

A police surveillance video taken the night that Trayvon Martin was shot dead shows no blood or bruises on George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch captain who says he shot Martin after he was punched in the nose, knocked down and had his head slammed into the ground. 

 The surveillance video, which was obtained exclusively by ABC News, shows Zimmerman arriving in a police cruiser. As he exits the car, his hands are cuffed behind his back. Zimmerman is frisked and then led down a series of hallways, still cuffed. 

 Zimmerman, 28, is wearing a red and black fleece and his face and head are cleanly shaven. He appears well built, hardly the portly young man depicted in a 2005 mug shot that until a two days ago was the single image the media had of Zimmerman. 

Police Video Surveillance of George Zimmerman 

 The initial police report noted that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of the head and nose, and after medical attention it was decided that he was in good enough condition to travel in a police cruiser to the Sanford, Fla., police station for questioning. 

 His lawyer later insisted that Zimmerman's nose had been broken in his scuffle with 17-year-old Martin. 

 In the video an officer is seen pausing to look at the back of Zimmerman's head, but no abrasions or blood can be seen in the video and he did not check into the emergency room following the police questioning. 

 Zimmerman was not arrested although ABC News has learned that the lead homicide investigator filed an affidavit urging Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter. The prosecutor, however, told the officer to not file the charge because there was not enough evidence for conviction. 

 Zimmerman said he was heading back to his car when Martin attacked him. His lawyer, Craig Sonner, said his client felt "one of them was going to die that night," when he pulled the trigger. 

Martin's girlfriend, who was on the phone with him in his final moments, told ABC News in an exclusive interview that she has not been interviewed by police, despite Martin telling her he was being followed. 

 The 16-year-old girl, who is only being identified as DeeDee, recounted the final moments of her conversation with Martin before the line went dead. 

 "When he saw the man behind him again he said this man is going to do something to him. And then he said this man is still behind him and I said run," she said. 

 Phone records obtained by ABC News show that the girl called Martin at 7:12 p.m., five minutes before police arrived, and remained on the phone with Martin until moments before he was shot. 

 DeeDee said Martin turned around and asked Zimmerman why he was following him. 

 "The man said what are you doing around here?" DeeDee recalled Zimmerman saying. 

 She said she heard someone pushed into the grass before the call was dropped. 

 Zimmerman, who had called 911, was asked by the dispatcher if he was following the teen. When Zimmerman replied that he was, the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that." 

 Martin's death has sparked protests across the country and prompted President Obama to say that if he had a son, he would look like Martin. 

 Over the past few days, leaks have emerged suggesting Martin was dogged by discipline problems. 

 Martin had been slapped with a 10 day school suspension after a bag with suspected marijuana was found in his backpack, Benjamin Crump, the family's attorney, said. 

 Last year the teen was suspended for spraying graffiti on school grounds. The Miami Herald reported that the school guard who stopped him searched his backpack and found 12 items of women's jewelry and a flathead screw driver that the guard believed to be a "burglary implement." But Martin was never charged or specifically disciplined for the incident. 

 Crump alleged that the Sanford police had leaked damaging information about Martin in order to muddy the case, calling it a "conspiracy." Crump called the school disciplinary problems "irrelevant" to the case that "an unarmed 17 year kid was killed."

Trayvon Martin Case: Exclusive Surveillance Video of George Zimmerman - ABC News

----------


## FailSafe

A commentator on AC360 make a pretty interesting point- if the police and attorney general are having this much difficulty gathering enough probable cause to levy a simple charge, how much trouble would the prosecution in a potential trial have proving anything 'beyond a reasonable doubt'?

He was one of Casey Anthony's lawyers, BTW- he knows what he's talking about.

----------


## Cujo

Didn't one asshole put a bounty on his head?

----------


## robuzo

^^^Zimmerman didn't have to be hurt for the law to work in his favor. All this does is damage one of the arguments of the "It was OK to kill Martin" crowd. They'll have to go back to traducing the character of the victim. That used to the province of rape defense counsel- "that boy was just asking to be shot."

^Nobody serious, some New Black Panther Party nutcases.

----------


## FailSafe

^

This is true- all he needs to do is convince a jury that he was actually in fear for his life- more serious injuries would have helped to back up his story, though.

----------


## robuzo

If you can knife someone fatally for swinging a bag of radios at you. . .

----------


## Cujo

Fucking idiot, old white guys like you probably aren't carrying illegal guns or drugs.

----------


## kingwilly

> Vigilantism is wrong so let's have more vigilantes.


yup.  sadly.

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> Vigilantism is wrong so let's have more vigilantes.
> 
> 
> yup.  sadly.


As a blogger I like put it, "Do the Wrong Thing, Spike."

----------


## koman

> A police surveillance video taken the night that Trayvon Martin was shot dead shows no blood or bruises on George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch captain who says he shot Martin after he was punched in the nose, knocked down and had his head slammed into the ground. The surveillance video, which was obtained exclusively by ABC News, shows Zimmerman arriving in a police cruiser. As he exits the car, his hands are cuffed behind his back. Zimmerman is frisked and then led down a series of hallways, still cuffed.


More trial by TV and internet!!

Zimmerman had "first aid" administerd in the back of the police cruiser---at the scene.   This video shows him arriving at the police station some time later.  If he had a broken nose it would necessarily not show up on such a video.  The blood would have been already cleaned up and bruising does not appear that quickly in most people.   Bruising could take quite a while...even the next day in some. 

The injury to the back of his head does not appear very serious----it likely was not very serious, but for all anybody could tell from that video he could have a fractured skull.  Even serious head injuries dont always look very dramatic.   Again he had been cleaned up a bit so who knows what he looked like before that?

Anyhow, WTF has the seriousness of HIS injuries have to do with it?   If he was attacked, punched and had his head banged on the pavement, as he claims, that is his self defence.....and the degree of injury would hardly be much of an argument against it.   

If any of us had a six foot three black guy ...in the dark...jumping on us banging our head on the ground.....would we be likely to react like Zimmerman if we had a loaded gun??  I'm sure a true liberal would beg for a heart to heart discussion about social injustice, black youth unemployment and various other civil rights issues......but most people would just shoot the fucker.

On one hand people are arguing that if you just feel yourself under threat, you are entitled to "defend" and then we have people suggesting that the degree of actual bodiily injury is not great enough to act in self defence..

All this; and still nobody knows WTF* really* happened.

----------


## robuzo

^Decries trial by Internet, then proceeds with trial by Internet:
"Anyhow, WTF has the seriousness of HIS injuries have to do with it? . . . his self defence.....and the degree of injury would hardly be much of an argument . . .six foot three black guy ...in the dark..." 

You know, you could make your argument a lot briefer and more to the point, counselor: "Shoot the darkie!" There was a time not too long ago when that would have worked quite well in that part of Florida.

----------


## bsnub

> All this; and still nobody knows WTF really happened.


This is the key point here. I am not opposed to self defense in anyway. I posses a concealed pistol license myself (although I chose not to carry). I am however very skeptical of Zimmermans story. It just doesn't wash with me. What this video does is create doubt as to Zimmermans story. It is not damning evidence of anything.

----------


## kingwilly

> If any of us had *a six foot three black guy ...in the dark*...jumping on us banging our head on the ground..


and here the boogey man doth lay....

----------


## koman

> ^Decries trial by Internet, then proceeds with trial by Internet:
> "Anyhow, WTF has the seriousness of HIS injuries have to do with it? . . . his self defence.....and the degree of injury would hardly be much of an argument . . .six foot three black guy ...in the dark..." 
> 
> You know, you could make your argument a lot briefer and more to the point, counselor: "Shoot the darkie!" There was a time not too long ago when that would have worked quite well in that part of Florida.


You really do have a one track mind don't you.   You made your mind up right from the first post and that's it.   Zimmerman just has to be a racist gunslinger and poor Matin just has to be a poor innocent little black boy......seems that's the ONLY way you can see anything.    Why don't you try answering the question above instead of making ridiculous hyperbolic statements?  I thought it was a reasonable question.....perhaps it would be better if we just said six foot three "guy" and left out the "black" bit...mmmm    Would that be better being as you'r so hypersensitive to the actual color of the assailant.

What would you do...  or don't you do questions?

----------


## guyinthailand

> *What I said,*
> "Martin walked away, did not run, if reports are correct.
> *If* Zimmerman approached him, Martin also had the right to self defence through confronting his approach."
> 
> *Because,* 
> Zimmerman reportedly approached Martin in a suspicious manner, this reported in his telephone conversation with his girlfriend as the situation was developing.
> 
> *You said. *  
> 
> ...


Actually, someone who has experience carrying concealed weapons who has been trained in the legal and moral aspects of said carry--not to mention how to use those weapons--is the ideal person to teach and clarify.

Again, you reveal your lack of discernment to make such a ridiculous remark.  That is like saying "I'll never take a driving class from someone who knows how to drive". 

You still don't get it, do you?  The law is clear : lethal force is allowed only in the circumstances I outlined.  Not because, as you say, there was a 'suspicious character' , 'acting suspiciously', 'following' a 'stranger'.

Why can't you just admit you made a mistake.

And, as for you judging my self-defense abilities Little Grasshopper, I assure you I know how to defend myself without a gun or a knife.

Carrying those tools doesn't mean I don't know how to use my knees, elbows, feet, fingers.

For you to suggest that continues to reveal your lack of logic and reasoning as does, of course, your banal, blind insistence that a 'suspicious' stranger following you gives you the right to use lethal force.

If Martin were trying to grab the pistol from Zimmerman then Martin could be constured to be attempting to use lethal force against Zimmerman.

If Martin were bashing Zimmerman's head on the sidewalk  then he was using lethal force.  

This is the kind of stuff you're talking about now. 

but it's not what you said before.  You blathered on about 'suspicious characters' 'following' Martin.  

Your assertion that Martin 'felt' in immediate danger is not enough, Little Grasshopper.

go back and read the wording of my post on when lethal force is allowed.  It doesn't involve 'feelings.'  The threat must be real, imminent and unavoidable. 

If Martin's prosecutor/family can prove Zimmerman was the threat, then Zimmerman is in trouble.   If Zimmerman can prove Martin was attempting to cause grave bodily harm to zimmerman, then Martin was at fault.

We shall see.

but your simplistic ideas on when lethal force is allowed are still wrong.  

No amount of blathering on about it will change the law.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Zimmerman refused medical assistance on the night of his arrest, not seeking it until the next day.
> 
> If he'd had a broken nose from that fight, it would have hurt and been obvious, the nose tip cartilage displaced to one side or bruising to the bridge of the nose or severe bruising around the eye sockets.
> 
> Having his head repeatedly slammed onto the (presumably) hard ground would result in repeated bruising and/or laceration.
> He'd know about it, and would have had a sore head and a headache at least, and in severe trauma, would be disorientated.


Bullshit.

Head trauma can come in all forms, from no visible signs to blood and gore.

I'm not 'standing up' for Zimmerman.  For all I know he instigated the altercation and wrongfully caused a death.

I'm just opposing more illogic from Ent.

----------


## ENT

*Another point of view*

Zimmerman, an overzealous (ignored 911 advice) self appointed neighbourhood watch captain with a history of alleged criminal violence and disregard for authority, stalked and shot dead an unarmed schoolboy who was innocently returning home with a bag of skittles and a can of iced tea.

Zimmerman's records show that he does have an aggressive personality.

George Zimmerman has been accused of domestic violence, tussling with a police officer and for over-speeding.

In 2005, Zimmerman was arrested and charged with "resisting officer with violence" and "battery of law enforcement officer." Both these felonies are considered third-degree. Due to his desperate attempts, the charges were reduced to "resisting officer without violence" and then the only remaining charge was also completely waived off when he entered an alcohol education program.

In the same year (2005), Zimmerman's ex-fiance, Veronica Zuazo, filed a civil motion for a restraining order, alleging domestic violence. In retaliation, Zimmerman filed for a restraining order against Zuazo and both these claims were resolved with both restraining orders granted.

The next year, in 2006, Zimmerman was charged with speeding. However, that case was dismissed because the officer who charged him failed to show up at the court.

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
> ^Decries trial by Internet, then proceeds with trial by Internet:
> "Anyhow, WTF has the seriousness of HIS injuries have to do with it? . . . his self defence.....and the degree of injury would hardly be much of an argument . . .six foot three black guy ...in the dark..." 
> 
> You know, you could make your argument a lot briefer and more to the point, counselor: "Shoot the darkie!" There was a time not too long ago when that would have worked quite well in that part of Florida.
> 
> 
> ...


You, uh, might want to go back and read my posts, or you might not, but don't ask me to rehash them here. I will say that I think it's pretty clear that I don't blame racism as a primary factor in this incident. I think the law as it stands in Florida is a problem for everyone.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> Zimmerman refused medical assistance on the night of his arrest, not seeking it until the next day.
> 
> If he'd had a broken nose from that fight, it would have hurt and been obvious, the nose tip cartilage displaced to one side or bruising to the bridge of the nose or severe bruising around the eye sockets.
> 
> Having his head repeatedly slammed onto the (presumably) hard ground would result in repeated bruising and/or laceration.
> He'd know about it, and would have had a sore head and a headache at least, and in severe trauma, would be disorientated.
> ...




As you have a propensity to carry a collection of concealed weapons, ("a Glock* and* a couple of knives") you are someone to avoid, and certainly not to be trusted with alone.

Such a person as you claiming to be an ideal instructor in self defence is as valid as any armed criminal's claim to such.
You are not a licenced firearms trainer either.

Most civilized countries do not permit the carrying of concealed weapons, if they do, it is not a permit to carry knives.

Your whole rant in your previous reply to my post is based on your interpretation of an apparently state law in USA, a law that is very much unclear, by all accounts.

Zimmerman had no obvious head trauma, not even a headache, otherwise he'd have complained of it, and refused a medical examination on the night, and simply went home after being cuffed, questioned and released.

The following day, Zimmerman went for a medical exam and found that he had a broken nose, that he was not aware of.

So stick your bullshit where it belongs, in a place where the sun never shines, it'll keep your head company.

----------


## jingoist

> Most civilized countries do not permit the carrying of *concealed* weapons,


What do they permit then? Wearing a pistol in a holster out in the open for all to see?  :Smile:

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> Most civilized countries do not permit the carrying of *concealed* weapons,
> 
> 
> What do they permit then? Wearing a pistol in a holster out in the open for all to see?


Vermont is considered by some people to be the most civilized state in the US. The people of Vermont regularly elect socialist representatives, including the only socialist senator, Bernie Sanders. The state has implemented universal healthcare coverage, and is ranked as the healthiest state in the union. Vermont also permits any adult without a felony record to "carry a firearm without getting permission . . . without paying a fee . . . or without going through any kind of government- imposed waiting period." Why Adopt a Vermont-style CCW Law? - Gun Owners Of America It has the second-lowest violent crime rate and the third-lowest murder rate in the US, despite high incidences of cabin fever. Basically, the most liberal, left-wing state in the US has the most liberal gun laws and an extremely low crime rate. Go figure.

----------


## Minnie Maugham

> Honestly, I don't think the crackers who wrote the "Stand Your Ground" law- not to mention the dingbat Bush who signed it...


erm, that law is from 1895...but, as usual, go ahead and blame Bush for it. :smiley laughing:

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
> Honestly, I don't think the crackers who wrote the "Stand Your Ground" law- not to mention the dingbat Bush who signed it...
> 
> 
> erm, that law is from 1895...but, as usual, go ahead and blame Bush for it.


Erm (?) the law was passed in 2005 and signed by Jeb Bush. You could look it up. There, I gave you the attention you crave. How about coming to Florida and stalking me there sometime rather than here? Before they change the law.

----------


## guyinthailand

> As you have a propensity to carry a collection of concealed weapons, ("a Glock* and* a couple of knives") you are someone to avoid, and certainly not to be trusted with alone.
> 
> Such a person as you claiming to be an ideal instructor in self defence is as valid as any armed criminal's claim to such.
> You are not a licenced firearms trainer either.
> 
> Most civilized countries do not permit the carrying of concealed weapons, if they do, it is not a permit to carry knives.
> 
> Your whole rant in your previous reply to my post is based on your interpretation of an apparently state law in USA, a law that is very much unclear, by all accounts.
> 
> ...


More brilliance from Ent: someone who carries a gun and a knife/knives is someone not to be trusted (makes a LOT of sense Ent.  Got any more pearls of wisdom like that? What are you: scared of the boogeyman? scared of someone with a gun and a knife just because they have a gun and a knife?  You're projecting, Ent, projecting your fears.)  And, P.S., did your akido instructor have a license to teach akido?   Didn't think so.   You don't need a license to teach firearm safety, Little Grasshopper.

It's not state law I was quoting, Ent, you missed the point yet again!  It was a principal of law dealing with lethal force that has been distilled from many years of case law.

I never said he did or didn't have head trauma.  I said your earlier post about head trauma was bullshit, which it was.

I have a license to carry my gun.  And in the state where I currently reside one doesn't need a license for a knife.  So...more bullshit from Ent.

Ooooh! Your 'sun never shines' rant is sooo...smart, now why didn't I think of something as 'witty' as that to say.

I'm waiting for you to say something...how shall I say...intelligent and consistent.

----------


## ENT

^^^^^Jingoist                                                                                                                                                                             You are permitted to carry an unloaded rifle or shotgun openly if you are licenced and have good reason to do so, ie, transporting the gun to a legal hunt or other legally designated place, such as a police arms office, or a  gun shop or, gunsmith or to be deposited at another permitted legal firearms holder's secure keeping ie. his legal gun safe.

When carrying a rifle in public, you are encouraged to keep it in a case to protect it and not to alarm the public.
The public may complain if you are perceived to be carrying a firearm in an offensive manner.
If you are deemed to present a firearm to any one (point it at them), in extreme cases the armed offenders squad can be called and if you persist you can be shot on sight.

Discharging a firearm in a public place is illegal.

Hand guns are normally carried openly only by a few of the police.

The general public are not encouraged to carry a hand gun openly, and can not easily acquire a licence for a concealed one.
You can keep a hand gun at home, but must have a good reason to take it outside to some other place.

Joining a pistol club for training and having a clean character reference and Category "A" gun licence allows you to get a permit to procure a hand gun.
All guns must be unloaded and sometimes disabled(bolt removed) as well as empty magazine while on public transport or in any vehicle

The USA has it's own laws concerning firearms.

----------


## guyinthailand

Ayoob teaches the following regarding using ones gun to stop lethal force from harming innocents:
*
"The highest power of the gun is not to use it".*

When confronted with a violent attack or the imminent potential for a violent attack (as I outlined above), one can stop the attack without having to pull the trigger by: pointing the gun at the attacker, yell in the loudest, deepest, fiercest voice "Don't Move!".

Most people, when seeing a gun pointed at them by a determined and very, very loud commanding voice told to "Don't Move!" are going to do exactly what the armed citizen is commanding, that is, not move.

If in the unfortunate event one is forced by circumstances to shoot the attacker then the only thing the police officer Ayoob says you should say to the arriving cops is "Officer, that man attacked me and I want to press charges if he survives".  

If the cops insist you tell them the story of how you defended yourself against the guy...all you do is repeat the above line "Officer, that man attacked me and I want to press charges if he survives".

And then get out your checkbook for the likely tens of thousands of dollars of legal bills you will now have, justified shooting or not.

----------


## guyinthailand

> ^^^^^Jingoist                                                                                                                                                                             You are permitted to carry an unloaded rifle or shotgun openly if you are licenced and have good reason to do so, ie, transporting the gun to a legal hunt or other legally designated place, such as a police arms office, or a  gun shop or, gunsmith or to be deposited at another permitted legal firearms holder's secure keeping ie. his legal gun safe.
> 
> When carrying a rifle in public, you are encouraged to keep it in a case to protect it and not to alarm the public.
> The public may complain if you are perceived to be carrying a firearm in an offensive manner.
> If you are deemed to present a firearm to any one (point it at them), in extreme cases the armed offenders squad can be called and if you persist you can be shot on sight.
> 
> Discharging a firearm in a public place is illegal.
> 
> Hand guns are normally carried openly only by a few of the police.
> ...


You're calling me a "Jingoist"?  

You are a pathetic name caller with nothing better to contribute than calling me a name!

Ent, do you realize you're meandering all over the road?  Here is what you just said:*  "blah blah blah blah blah"  
* 
What does anything you say above have to do with anything we're talking about?!  You sound like a boring teacher making the class listen to irellevant b.s.

And my license is for CONCEALED  carry of a loaded firearm.  It is called a 'concealed carry permit'. 

There are very few places where I cannot legally carry it.  When I do carry it, it is concealed and not seen by the public.

By the way, not all guns have 'bolts'.

And I hope your akido teacher--if you really had one--had a LICENSE to Teach.  Because, if he didn't, according to you, how could he possibly teach anyone anything?

And you're telling me the USA has its own laws regarding firearms?  

No shit, Shirlock!

The event we are supposed to be talking about here HAPPENED IN THE USA.

So why are you telling us some unrelated crud about another country's laws?  Who cares?!

----------


## bsnub

> erm, that law is from 1895


Once again you have proven that you know nothing About the US, its laws and its politics. You may be referring to the case Beard v. U.S. The ruling by the supreme court was as follows;

 "that a man who was "on his premises" when he came under attack and "...did not provoke the assault, and had at the time reasonable grounds to believe, and in good faith believed, that the deceased intended to take his life, or do him great bodily harm...was not obliged to retreat, nor to consider whether he could safely retreat, but was entitled to stand his ground"

This is a ruling NOT a law. The Castle doctrine and "stand your ground" laws passed by states happened decades later.

----------


## pickel

> Pfft. After reading the comments here, my previous respect for the intelligence of robuzo & pickel has shrivelled to the size of a nit's diaper filling. Their (and other posters') calling judgement on a case with which only media hoopla was the evidence is ludicrous. I especially liked robuzo's post #83 where he says he had not commented until now, when in fact he had made several comments previously. You all jumped to racial sides before the facts were in. You believed the mass media press.
> The leftie media skewed this story, with Sharpton et al firing it to a fevered pitch. 
> 
> WTF is a White Latino? Outdated photos of the black thug as a cute little kid, while Zimmerman's photo shows him as a fat swarthy f*k? The kid's mother patenting his name to make cash?
> 
> All you leftist posters making racial slurs and summations before the facts are in. FOR SHAME. 
> 
> I used to respect albeit disagree with most comments from the elite lefties like pickel & holier-than-thou robuzo (hey, my ex lives in Roca Baton, mebbe you're neighbours? Nah, he's a WAY-WEALTHY investment banker), but after this trash talk, I will look at these posters with the disdain they deserve.


There goes Jet Boredom making things up again in her rabid little head.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## ENT

Firearms instructors, all categories, are all licenced and trained in NZ.                                                                                                                                                                                 Maybe not in your neck of the woods seppo, but certainly in NZ.

Only inadequate show offs, pussies and girls carry knives, and guns around with them, or blokes with a challenged penis like you.
Where do you carry your knives, in a fag bag like Big Tim Sharky?   :rofl: 

Your hand gun is not going to be very accurate after 12 ft in a fast defence action, and at close quarters some of us are very capable of taking a gun or a knife off you or even help you to shoot yourself or cut you own throat.

I'm scared of nothing twat, least of all a wannabe like you.
An Aikido sensei is not licenced, he is graded, you dumb idiot.

What the frk is a "principal of law" that you claim to be?
Never heard of such a title, all bullshit from you again!

Best you remove your head out of that dark place ASAP. you're starting to show symptoms of oxygen starvation.


 :smiley laughing:

----------


## ENT

^^^^Like I said, you're showing symptoms of oxygen starvation.

Jingoist is the poster five posts above mine who I was replying to, shit for brains. :Smile:

----------


## bsnub

This is so going to get MKP'ed...

----------


## guyinthailand

> Firearms instructors, all categories, are all licenced and trained in NZ.                                                                                                                                                                                 Maybe not in your neck of the woods seppo, but certainly in NZ.
> 
> Only inadequate show offs, pussies and girls carry knives, and guns around with them, or blokes with a challenged penis like you.
> Where do you carry your knives, in a fag bag like Big Tim Sharky?  
> 
> Your hand gun is not going to be very accurate after 12 ft in a fast defence action, and at close quarters some of us are very capable of taking a gun or a knife off you or even help you to shoot yourself or cut you own throat.
> 
> I'm scared of nothing twat, least of all a wannabe like you.
> An Aikido sensei is not licenced, he is graded, you dumb idiot.
> ...


'Principal of law' that I claim to be?  WTF are you talking about?  I was referring to principles of law as laid down by case law, and if I mispelled principles, well, bfd, my discussion was clear.

I knew it!  I knew Ent would descend to talking about penises!  

Penis talk is always the last refuge of those incapable of rational thought.

I hope your akido skills are better than your reasoning ability!

Ent, you need to talk to your therapist about why you have this need to talk about penises.

I'm serious!

And look!  Ent has also now descended into 'my daddy can beat up your daddy' blather.

You do realize, deep down, what all your bluster means, right Ent?  (Ask your therapist if you don't get it.)

----------


## ENT

^^You hope.   :Smile:

----------


## guyinthailand

And, PS Ent, it was I who made the comments about lethal force from a, for ex, knife-weilder at short distances (7 meters) overcoming a person with a gun.  No need for you to repeat what I said and act as if you are being original.

----------


## jingoist

> Jingoist?  
> 
> You are a pathetic name caller with nothing better to contribute than calling me a name!


I am calling your either blind or illiterate now, because I never called you a name!  :Smile:

----------


## ENT

You said that you were* "a principal of law"*, a lot different from "*I studied principles of law*"

Childish excuse.

And who the Frk is "Little Grasshopper" that you keep fantasising over?
Your "little" gay buddy or something?

----------


## ENT

> And, PS Ent, it was I who made the comments about lethal force from a, for ex, knife-weilder at short distances (7 meters) overcoming a person with a gun.  No need for you to repeat what I said and act as if you are being original.


Nowhere did I repeat what you said, unless I indicated a quotation.
Read the post again oh oxygen starved one.  :Smile:

----------


## guyinthailand

Now you're talking, Ent!  You're getting to the good stuff now!  This forum I see is almost like therapy for you.  First penises, now your fears/hopes around gay-ness.

I was referring to your akido when I kept calling you Little Grasshopper.  That's what the kid's teacher called him in the movie, Karate Kid.

----------


## ENT

You watch that kind of stuff to learn your self defence tricks? :Smile:

----------


## guyinthailand

I never actually watched it.  Only saw the references.

But I couldn't help but think of you in relation to it.

----------


## BaitongBoy

^^^Why didn't 'they' call it Akido Kid, then?...

 :Smile: 

Just wondering, Grasshopper...

----------


## guyinthailand

> You said that you were* "a principal of law"*, a lot different from "*I studied principles of law*"
> 
> Childish excuse.
> 
> And who the Frk is "Little Grasshopper" that you keep fantasising over?
> Your "little" gay buddy or something?



I'm sorry you're having a hard time reading, Ent.  I never said I was  a 'principal of law'.

Nice try, though, to try once again to distract from the discussion at hand.  Pretty funny, though, I have to admit.

Anyway, we have YOU on record as being    
1) obsessed by penises and
2) obsessed by gay-ness 
3) your blustering 'your daddy can beat up my daddy' childishness

----------


## hazz

lads show a little respect for dead, and get on topic. you are both being more than childish

----------


## guyinthailand

> ^^^^Like I said, you're showing symptoms of oxygen starvation.
> 
> Jingoist is the poster five posts above mine who I was replying to, shit for brains.


If you were smart, Ent, you would politely ask me to trade you my little gaffe for all the idiotic and meandering things you've said in the last handful of posts! Besides, you've shown yourself to be a little name caller so my thinking you were calling me 'jingoist' is not far-fetched, especially since I didn't even know there was a teakdoor member named jingoist.   (And, by the way, your 'jingoist' post had arrows pointing to the post immediately above it, that is, my post, that is, it seemed you were referring to me.

 You can't even get your arrows right, Ent.)

----------


## FailSafe

Well, this thread has jumped the shark- nicely done, guys.

----------


## guyinthailand

here was my last 'relevant' post which I feel deserves thought or comment: especially in light of this discussion, which is this guy getting shot, when lethal force is justified, etc

Ayoob teaches the following regarding using ones gun to stop lethal force from harming innocents:
*
"The highest power of the gun is not to use it".*

When confronted with a violent attack or the imminent potential for a  violent attack (as I outlined above), one can stop the attack without  having to pull the trigger by: pointing the gun at the attacker, yell in  the loudest, deepest, fiercest voice "Don't Move!".

Most people, when seeing a gun pointed at them by a determined and very,  very loud commanding voice told to "Don't Move!" are going to do  exactly what the armed citizen is commanding, that is, not move.

If in the unfortunate event one is forced by circumstances to shoot the  attacker then the only thing the police officer Ayoob says you should  say to the arriving cops is "Officer, that man attacked me and I want to  press charges if he survives".  

If the cops insist you tell them the story of how you defended yourself  against the guy...all you do is repeat the above line "Officer, that man  attacked me and I want to press charges if he survives".

And then get out your checkbook for the likely tens of thousands of  dollars of legal bills you will now have, justified shooting or not.

----------


## ENT

Apparently Zimmerman had his gun drawn, and Martin didn't "step back" according to Zimmerman's spokesman.

7.10 pm Zimmerman talks to 911 dispatcher, asked if he was following Martin, then told "We don't need you to do that"

7.12 pm Martin is talking to his girlfriend on the phone, she hears the confrontation.

7-15 pm Zimmerman claims Martin attacked him at that point, then he shot Martin at a point blank range..

7.17 pm Police arrive.

Zimmerman says Martin approached  him from behind.
Initially, he said that he reached for his phone when Martin asked him what he wanted (overheard by Martin's girl friend)
Zimmerman drew, Martin reached for the gun, said Zimmerman
Who pulled the trigger? 

The stand your ground law is being discussed.

Trayvon Martin Investigator Wanted to Charge George Zimmerman With Manslaughter - ABC News

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> ^^^^Like I said, you're showing symptoms of oxygen starvation.
> 
> Jingoist is the poster five posts above mine who I was replying to, shit for brains.
> 
> 
>   (And, by the way, your 'jingoist' post had arrows pointing to the post immediately above it, that is, my post, that is, it seemed you were referring to me.
> ...


Five arrows up = five posts above addressed to jingoist, his post #176

Obvious to anybody.

----------


## BaitongBoy

> You can't even get your arrows right, Ent.)


His 'arrows' are correct...^^^^^means five(5) posts above his...just saying...

 :Smile: 

And how could you miss little ole jingoist waving the Stars 'n' Stripes?...

----------


## jingoist

I have been drawn into a fight where I have no dog!  :Smile:

----------


## guyinthailand

Back to the discussion:

Looks like Martin made a big mistake in grabbing for a gun pointed at him.

Ayoob's suggestion above for not having to pull the trigger didn't seem to work in this instance.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Originally Posted by guyinthailand
> 
> You can't even get your arrows right, Ent.)
> 
> 
> His 'arrows' are correct...^^^^^means five(5) posts above his...just saying...
> 
> 
> 
> And how could you miss little ole jingoist waving the Stars 'n' Stripes?...


Okay, now I know, 5 stars means 5 posts up.  

I don't see 'avatars', they aren't displayed on my screen.

----------


## guyinthailand

can't help but bring up (white) Bernhard Goetz here.  Did he really hit all four (black) targets with a--what--five shot revolver?  

Bernhard Goetz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

----------


## jingoist

You should have took it as a compliment!

----------


## ENT

> Back to the discussion:
> 
> Looks like Martin made a big mistake in grabbing for a gun pointed at him.
> 
> Ayoob's suggestion above for not having to pull the trigger didn't seem to work in this instance.


True
Ayoob's advice is questionable.

Martin wasn't skilled in disarming a gunman.

----------


## BaitongBoy

> I have been drawn into a fight where I have no dog!


Koojo should be around in a minute...but he's a bit ambivalent in nature...

 :mid:

----------


## Boon Mee

Acadamy Award winner for sure! :rofl:

----------


## bsnub

^ :rofl:

----------


## guyinthailand

I encourage you to read the wiki entry on Goetz I cite above.  Many interesting things there, besides his excellent shooting under stress.

For example, 
_"The New York Court of Appeals, in People v Goetz,  reversed Judge Crane's dismissal, affirming the prosecutor's charge to  the grand jury that a defendant's subjective belief that he is in  imminent danger does not by itself justify the use of deadly force. The  court agreed with the prosecutor that an objective belief, one that  would be shared by a hypothetical reasonable person, is also required."_

----------


## guyinthailand

> Originally Posted by guyinthailand
> 
> 
> Back to the discussion:
> 
> Looks like Martin made a big mistake in grabbing for a gun pointed at him.
> 
> Ayoob's suggestion above for not having to pull the trigger didn't seem to work in this instance.
> 
> ...


maybe it's going to turn out to be: the gunman Zimmerman was skilled at fighting off a deadly attack from Martin.

Let's try and keep an open mind, shall we?

----------


## Boon Mee

^
That was NYC.

This is Florida.

----------


## guyinthailand

> True
> Ayoob's advice is questionable.



How is advice that says 'do everything possible to avoid pulling the trigger' questionable?

----------


## guyinthailand

> ^
> That was NYC.
> 
> This is Florida.


A jury no matter where it is located is unlikely to allow someone to use deadly force based solely on SUBJECTIVE grounds, as Ent was implying was okay ('a stranger is following me so I can attack him').  that is why I excerpted the instructions to the New Yorkers trying the 'Subway Vigilante' (how Goetz was dubbed by the media).

----------


## BaitongBoy

> Ayoob's suggestion above for not having to pull the trigger didn't seem to work in this instance.


That's why it's questionable...

----------


## guyinthailand

I don't think that is what Ent meant.  But maybe Ent could answer since he made the comment.

----------


## BaitongBoy

^Seems he was agreeing with you...

----------


## ENT

Zimmerman was advised by the 911 dispatcher not to follow at 7.10 pm. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Martin's girlfriend's heard Martin and Zimmerman talking at 7-12 pm.

Zimmerman said the exchange of words, struggle and shot was at 7.15 pm.
A three minute time gap

Three minutes is a long time to exchange a few words, go for your phone, get punched in the face, fall and have a fight, then reach for a holstered gun, draw it, struggle to stop your opponent from taking the gun, and then shoot him dead at close range..
If the whole incident took 30-40 seconds, it would be believable.

Zimmerman's estimate of the time of the shooting seems inaccurate.

Then it only took only 2 minutes for the police to arrive at 7.17 pm. 

Also, if Zimmerman was reaching for his phone when he claimed he was attacked, how could he go for his gun at the same time?

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by guyinthailand
> ...



Zimmerman showed zero fighting skills, reportedly beaten up, on his back on the ground and only got out of it with a gun.

Martin had zero unarmed combat skills sufficient to take the gun off Zimmerman, which he tried to do.

"He didn't step back", is what Zimmerman's spokesperson/friend Joe Oliver said.

Were they standing at that moment? Before Martin tried to disarm Zimmerman? The punch up and struggle for the gun apparently started then.

Zimmerman then shot Martin at close range at that point.

Ayoob's advice was irrelevant.

----------


## bsnub

Will you stupid fucktards shut up already? Go to MKP and fist each other already.

----------


## ENT

Say something sensible about the case bsnub.

What do you think happened now that more info has been posted about it?

----------


## bsnub

> Say something sensible about the case bsnub.


I did and you little girls wanted to carry on..

----------


## ENT

Tut tut snubles.  :mid:

----------


## koman

> Will you stupid fucktards shut up already? Go to MKP and fist each other already.


Christ bsnub that's damned near worth a green... :Smile:   It really has gone from the sublime to the ridiculous....... it's gone from some reasonable speculation to pure fantasy land shit......and still no hard facts...WTF.....  
Deninitely an MKP event now.

----------


## ENT

That video posted earlier of Zimmerman being brought in has generated a bit of feed back.

The video, first broadcast Wednesday by ABCNews.com, shows an officer looking at the back of Zimmerman's head. The video did not provide a close-up of Zimmerman's head but some say it shows Zimmerman did not have significant injuries to his face.
"The injuries that made it sound as though he really should have been on a stretcher are not apparent in this tape at all," said Marcia Clark, the former prosecutor in the O.J. Simpson trial. "He moves freely. He moves fluidly, not like someone who has just been through a beating in anyway shape or form, someone's whose head has been pounded on the pavement as hard as described, someone who's nose was broken and bleeding. That tells you a great deal."

Zimmerman's father says Trayvon Martin threatened to kill his son - CNN.com

Zimmerman wasn't much of a fighter at all, he complained a lot, so does his dad, if you read the linked article.

Lots of dodgy staements coming out from his supporters as well as Zimmerman, not consistent at all, IMO

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by bsnub
> 
> 
> Will you stupid fucktards shut up already? Go to MKP and fist each other already.
> 
> 
> Christ bsnub that's damned near worth a green...  It really has gone from the sublime to the ridiculous....... it's gone from some reasonable speculation to pure fantasy land shit......and still no hard facts...WTF.....  
> Deninitely an MKP event now.


C'mon soldier, give us some expert insights. :mid:

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by bsnub
> ...


Well ENT, if we  can have some real credible evidence; some  facts....instead of all this fantasy shit.....and black vs white cheer leading stuff.....kinda like the Florida prosecuter was sayin like......

Many of us believe that evidence and proof is quite important before we execute the accused......believe it or not.   At the present time it appears they don't even have enough to charge the man, let alone convict him.....so the lethal injection will just have to stay in the fridge for now.....but it will give you more time to analyse grainy video shots of Zimmermans head and perhaps even try to come with some kind of motive that would make sense. 

If he was not attacked or threatened in some significant way, what possible cause would he have to shoot...at point blank range.    Sorry, but you and the Rev's Sharpton, Jackson et al....will just have to show a bit more patience... there is a burden of proof required here and we just can't go ahead and execute him based on your _feelings...._

----------


## Lorenzo

It appears Zimmerman is in the wrong here but who really knows or cares.  Any self respecting attorney would advise him to  plead guilty and pay a small fine.

NEXT CASE!!

----------


## BaitongBoy

> Any self respecting attorney


Now this is an interesting phrase...

----------


## ENT

^^^ Koman.
It's a little presumptuos to throw me into the same camp as Jackson, Sharpton and all and all on the matter, but never mind.
In fact, I don't think they've got the right end of the stick on the issue at all.

There's lots of social and racial prejudice showing over the issue, both black and white and khaki, from the start.
Zimmerman being labelled a white Hispanic, when he's simply Hispanic and then Martin being portrayed by some as a real bad arsed gangster, which I doubt he was.

I don't think that Zimmerman was out to on a coon hunt that night either, it was not a racially motivated murder, IMO, simply no evidence of it.

Nevertheless, Zimmerman did go OTT in his actions, but would you think he reacted, rather than acted in the situation?
He seems to be a nervous type.

I think he pulled the gun before the struggle, not half way through, it would simply be too awkward a move to make in a tussle.

That would imply that he felt either threatened by Martin's behaviour or that he was simply suspicious from the start and presented the firearm right at the onset of the confrontation, when Martin asked him what he wanted.

What puzzles me is why three minutes elapsed between Martin's last words with his girlfriend and his sudden death.

Who was in fact yelling for help in such apparent fear?

Look at it this way:
A guy with a gun in his hand facing another unarmed chap. Who's going to be most frightened for his life and yell for help? 
The guy with the gun or the other?

----------


## S Landreth

George Zimmermans dad: Trayvon Martin threatened to kill my son

I guess everybody would have preferred George be beaten to death, Robert Zimmerman tells a local TV station.

Sanford, FL -- Trayvon Martin threatened to kill George Zimmerman the moments before the neighborhood watch captain took out a handgun and shot him, Zimmermans father told a local television station.

Speaking out for the first time, Robert Zimmerman gave an interview to the Orlando Fox affiliate, telling the station that his son had no choice but to kill Trayvon or risk being beaten to death.

Things were not going to go well. One of them was not going to walk away, he said. I hope at one point everyone will go beyond the hate. At some point when all this settles, theyll say, George Zimmerman is a pretty nice guy.

George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Feb. 26 in a case that has triggered protests nationwide. The college criminal justice student was not charged, leading attorneys to believe that police and prosecutors conspired to protect him.

Robert Zimmerman, a retired Virginia magistrate, said the family is in hiding and cant go to the doctor or do anything that requires using their own names.

He said his son had just made dinner for his wife and was heading to Target the night of the NBA All Starts game when he spotted Trayvon, who he didnt recognize as a resident. He thought Trayvon looked suspicious, because there had been a rash of break-ins, and instead of walking on a main sidewalk, Trayvon was walking in a paved path that goes behind two sets of townhouses.

George Zimmerman called police, and started walking in the same general direction to see where the individual was going, and get an address for police.

At one point, he said, Trayvon approached him saying, Do you have an f-ing problem? George replied no and reached for his cell phone.

Trayvon punched him in the nose, his nose was broken, and he was knocked to the concrete. Robert Zimmerman said. Its my understanding Trayvon Martin got on top of him and just started beating him in the face, in his nose, hitting his head on the concrete.

After nearly a minute of being beaten, Robert Zimmerman said George tried  with Trayvon still on top of him  to move away from the concrete onto the grass. In doing so, the gun he kept in a holster on his waist was exposed.

Trayvon Martin said something to the effect of youre going to die now or youre gonna die tonight -- something to that effect, he said. He continued to beat George. At some point, George pulled his pistol and did what he did.

In other points, he said:

 He insisted that its George heard screaming in the 911 video.

 He believes that the girl who claims she was on the phone with Trayon in the minutes that led up to the encounter is not telling the truth.

 George had a broken nose and two cuts on his scalp.

 He had not seen the police department surveillance video showing Zimmerman some time after the incident, in which he does not appear to have any injuries. Maybe he was cleaned up by then, he said.

Hes not dealing with it well. I dont know if the injuries are physical or mental. Hes not in good shape, Robert Zimmerman said.

Asked if he had a message for Trayvons family, he said: Im sorry for all of the hate -- from the attorneys, from everyone involved. Theyre making up things that are not true about George. How hes being portrayed is an absolute lie.

 :mid:  : George Zimmermans dad: Trayvon Martin threatened to kill my son - Need To Map - MiamiHerald.com





another video of Zimmerman at police station

----------


## ENT

At one point, he said, Trayvon approached him saying, ‘Do you have an f-ing problem?’ George replied no and reached for his cell phone.

Trayvon “punched him in the nose, his nose was broken, and he was knocked to the concrete.” Robert Zimmerman said. “It’s my understanding Trayvon Martin got on top of him and just started beating him in the face, in his nose, hitting his head on the concrete.”



*“After nearly a minute of being beaten,” Robert Zimmerman said George tried – with Trayvon still on top of him – to move away from the concrete onto the grass. In doing so, the gun he kept in a holster on his waist was exposed.*

“After nearly a minute of being beaten,” Zimmerman had only a broken nose ( from the alleged first punch) and superficial cuts to the back of his head (from hitting his head on the concrete).
So where is the evidence of one minute's worth of being beaten? His face should have shown a lot more damage than that!
It takes only a second to punch a guy once to break his nose. Add another two or three seconds to fall and bang his head
That leaves 56 seconds for an assailant to beat his face to a pulp.
No sign of that though.
Any fighter will attest to the fact that a one minute bout is really tiring, you're knackered after such an effort.

George tried – with Trayvon still on top of him – to move away from the concrete onto the grass.

That took an effort! But why do that? Surely by then he should have been really smashed over and would want to stop the guy.
But he didn't, while Martin allegedly continued his assault while talking to him. Strange.

*“Trayvon Martin said something to the effect of ‘you’re going to die now’ or you’re gonna die tonight’ -- something to that effect,” he said. “He continued to beat George. At some point, George pulled his pistol and did what he did*


*At some point, George pulled his pistol and did what he did*

Allegedly, at that point Zimmerman pulled out his by now exposed hand gun and shot Martin.
He initially said that he shot Martin twice, reportedly.

The problem though, is that Zimmerman also said that Martin tried to take the gun off him at some point.

Also, if Martin had really been beating Zimmerman up for a full minute, his fists would have been sore and likely bruised or cut.

Martin's undertaker said that the youth's showed no sign of bruising at all! No evidence of a prolonged punching.
Neither did Zimmerman's face.

Zimmerman did not say that he was in terror and screaming for help either.

Excerpts from link below, with my added comments.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/2...#storylink=cpy

----------


## guyinthailand

> Zimmerman was advised by the 911 dispatcher not to follow at 7.10 pm. 
>                                                                                                                                                                                   Martin's girlfriend's heard Martin and Zimmerman talking at 7-12 pm.
> 
> Zimmerman said the exchange of words, struggle and shot was at 7.15 pm.
> A three minute time gap
> 
> Three minutes is a long time to exchange a few words, go for your phone, get punched in the face, fall and have a fight, then reach for a holstered gun, draw it, struggle to stop your opponent from taking the gun, and then shoot him dead at close range..
> If the whole incident took 30-40 seconds, it would be believable.
> 
> ...


Any good defense attorney will argue that when a person is under great stress as in a violent confrontation time is distorted, which is true.  Zimmerman getting details of times wrong, if he did get them 'wrong',  is no big deal. See the other excellent book by Ayoob, "Stressfire, Gunfighting for Police: Advanced Tactics and Techniques" which shows what really happens in   violent confrontations.

30 seconds, three minutes...those differences by themselves don't matter.  What matters is what happened between the two guys, not conjecture (unless someone can PROVE Zimmerman is lying, then getting a jury to believe him on other matters is difficult).  Arguments can take minutes to develop, as this one seems to have done.

How could Zimmerman reach for his phone and gun at same time?  He had two hands and arms didn't he?

My phone is in my left pocket.  My gun is on my right side.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Zimmerman showed zero fighting skills, reportedly beaten  up, on his back on the ground and only got out of it with a gun.  Martin  had zero unarmed combat skills sufficient to take the gun off  Zimmerman, which he tried to do.  "He didn't step back", is what  Zimmerman's spokesperson/friend Joe Oliver said.  Were they standing at  that moment? Before Martin tried to disarm Zimmerman? The punch up and  struggle for the gun apparently started then.  Zimmerman then shot  Martin at close range at that point.  Ayoob's advice was  irrelevant.


Zimmerman 'showed zero fighting skills'?  Who is alive and who is dead?  

You don't need to be "skilled in combat" to wrestle a gun away from someone, or to try and wrestle a gun away.  Approximately 25 percent of cops killed in the line of duty are killed with their own weapons, after having them wrestled away. And cops are trained to retain their weapons and yet they still have them wrestled away.

Ayoob's advice is relevant to the discussion for the proper way to deal with using deadly force.    Ayoob places great emphasis on ways to avoid pulling the trigger when the gun is drawn.  Of course this is relevant to the discussion because Zimmerman pulled the trigger.   

Zimmerman may later be shown to have caused a wrongful death if he is shown to have done the things 'wrong' which Ayoob emphasizes in the quotes & lecture videos I posted above.  All extremely relevant to this discussion.  But if you are trying to say Zimmerman didn't follow this advice--(and, yes, of course, zimmerman in all likelihood had not studied Ayoob) say that, but don't say that a discussion of judicious use of deadly force is irrelevant.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Also, if Martin had really been beating Zimmerman up for a full minute, his fists would have been sore and likely bruised or cut.
> 
> Martin's undertaker said that the youth's showed no sign of bruising at all! No evidence of a prolonged punching.
> Neither did Zimmerman's face.


Have you heard of a palm strike to the nose?  You strike that way and there is no 'bruise'. I doubt I'm going to have a 'bruise' even if I punch a guy on the nose with my fist.  My knuckles can 'take a punch'. How about an elbow strike to the temple? Or nose?  There are lots of ways to strike a person and not have 'bruises'. The 'tour de force' of 'strikes', in my opinion, isn't even a 'strike' in the conventional sense but rather stiff fingers poked in the eye(s)--guaranteed to stop just about any fight, cold--even better than hitting/etc balls.  Head injuries, as I already explained to you, can happen with no apparent external injuries.  In fact, a whiplash in a car crash, for example, can do permanent injury to the internal structure of the brain.  

  There are a number of ways Martin could have been trying to f*#king kill Zimmerman.  

Like I said, Zimmerman may later to be shown to have used deadly force when it wasn't warranted and he will go to jail.  But my intuition tells me he was justified.  We shall see.

----------


## Minnie Maugham

> Originally Posted by bsnub
> 
> 
> Will you stupid fucktards shut up already? Go to MKP and fist each other already.
> 
> 
> Christ bsnub that's damned near worth a green...  It really has gone from the sublime to the ridiculous....... it's gone from some reasonable speculation to pure fantasy land shit......and still no hard facts...WTF.....  
> Deninitely an MKP event now.


Great minds think alike.  :Smile:  I did try to green snubbos for that, but outta ammo.

----------


## Boon Mee

So what's new.  

Most divisive president ever...

----------


## Boon Mee

The liberal lynch mob  proclaims that George Zimmerman didnt look sufficiently bloody after  emergency crews had cleaned him up following his assault by Trayvon  Martin. They must have missed this:



As for what Zimmerman would have looked like afterward if he hadnt been armed, the regrettably unarmed Carter Strange provides a clue:



But then Strange lived. The medias little angel Trayvon allegedly stated his intent to kill Zimmerman.

----------


## ENT

[QUOTE=guyinthailand;2058694]


> 30 seconds, three minutes...those differences by themselves don't matter.  What matters is what happened between the two guys, not conjecture (unless someone can PROVE Zimmerman is lying, then getting a jury to believe him on other matters is difficult).  Arguments can take minutes to develop, as this one seems to have done.
> 
> How could Zimmerman reach for his phone and gun at same time?  He had two hands and arms didn't he?
> 
> My phone is in my left pocket.  My gun is on my right side.


"*30 seconds, three minutes...those differences by themselves don't matter.*"

By themselves no. In the context of this event, yes, those unaccounted for minutes are significant.
What happened between the guys happened within that reported time frame.

"*Arguments can take minutes to develop, as this one seems to have done.*"

This argument took only a few seconds to develop then abruptly cut short, according to the witness' account.
This is where the unaccounted for time frame starts. 

 "*How could Zimmerman reach for his phone and gun at same time?  He had two hands and arms didn't he?*"

Even with two hands, he only had one brain and could only_ concentrate_ on one action at a time, either using his phone or using his gun.

----------


## Boon Mee

*Obama: If I had a son, hed look like Trayvon*




Real Class.  Take 'em out of the Hood but you can't take the Hood out of them.

----------


## ENT

[QUOTE=guyinthailand;2058716]


> Zimmerman 'showed zero fighting skills'?  Who is alive and who is dead?  .


Martin's body showed no obvious signs of violence or trauma other than a bullet wound in the upper torso (chest).
This suggests that Zimmerman _did not_ land any punches in self defence on Martin.
He simply shot him.

Zimmerman, on the other hand, showed signs of physical trauma, a broken nose and a small laceration to the back of his head.
Here the suggestion is that he suffered blunt force trauma from an as yet _unestablished_ cause.

In unequal contest (a man armed with a gun versus an unarmed man), the odds favour the armed man, especially at very close range.

Martin's death is no indicator of Zimmerman's fighting skills, only that he shot Martin at close quarters within three minutes of meeting him.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> Also, if Martin had really been beating Zimmerman up for a full minute, his fists would have been sore and likely bruised or cut.
> 
> *Martin's undertaker said that the youth's body showed no sign of bruising at all! No evidence of a prolonged punching.
> Neither did Zimmerman's face.*
> 
> 
> ...


Martin's body showed no signs of any form of "tour de force" blows, neither did Zimmerman's head, even after medical examination.

Reportedly, Martin persistently_ pummelled_ Zimmerman's face and *repeatedly bashed* Zimmerman's head on the concrete.
So far there is no reported documented evidence of that assertion.

I am conversant with the many ways of death, dying and the disposal of the dead, and need no further instruction on that matter.

Martin _may or may not have_ had several options open to him in dealing to Zimmerman, but apparently could not use them.

----------


## Boon Mee

> George Zimmermans dad: Trayvon Martin threatened to kill my son
> I guess everybody would have preferred George be beaten to death, Robert Zimmerman tells a local TV station.


Yep...that's the narrative.  

More on the Irrelevance of Stand Your Ground to the Trayvon Martin Case.

 Pretty much everything under discussion is irrelevant here, right down to the political framing:  A Hispanic Democrat shoots a black guy and somehow its the fault of white conservatives.  Because, you know, _everything_ is.

----------


## ENT

> As for what Zimmerman would have looked like afterward if he hadn’t been armed, the regrettably unarmed Carter Strange provides a clue:
> 
> 
> 
> But then Strange lived. The media’s little angel Trayvon allegedly stated his intent to kill Zimmerman.


Clearly indicated above is the result of repeated blunt force trauma to the head.

They include a_ broken nose_and severe facial bruising as a result of _repeated blows_ to the face.

Zimmerman's face indicated no such injuries, although Zimmerman's father alleges that Martin persistently beat his son's face and nose, and bashed his son's head repeatedly into the concrete footpath simultaneously threatening to kill him.

There is so far no visible evidence to support that contention.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by bsnub
> ...



"Great minds think alike.  :Smile:  .....and fools seldom differ."

----------


## ENT

Post deleted, corrected below.

----------


## Boon Mee

> There is so far no visible evidence to support that contention.


Go back to Post #339 and check out the top pic...

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by S Landreth
> 
> 
> George Zimmermans dad: Trayvon Martin threatened to kill my son
> I guess everybody would have preferred George be beaten to death, Robert Zimmerman tells a local TV station.
> 
> 
> Yep...that's the narrative.  
> 
> ...



*Pretty much everything under discussion is irrelevant here*

What's the matter, is it getting too hot in the kitchen, BoonMee?

The _irrelevant points_ are the racial, social and political slurs heaped up on both sides of the discussion.

----------


## Boon Mee

^
You're repeating yourself.  What is meant by 'irrelevent' is it's all the fault of those wicked white conservatives anyway.

A tongue-in-cheek remark.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> There is so far no visible evidence to support that contention.
> 
> 
> Go back to Post #339 and check out the top pic...


I'm aware of what you're saying, but Zimmerman reportedly shot Martin *after* receiving an alleged severe beating to his face.

The top pic shows what appears to be a small laceration to the back of Zimmerman's head.
What is the relevance of your suggestion?

Please explain.

----------


## Boon Mee

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by ENT
> ...


Shouldn't need any explaination as that's wound is from Martin bashing Zim's head on the pavement, eh? :mid:

----------


## ENT

> ^
> You're repeating yourself.  What is meant by 'irrelevent' is it's all the fault of those wicked white conservatives anyway.
> 
> A tongue-in-cheek remark.


Don't be silly, that statement is  presumptuous of you.
I have not gone any where near politically, racially or socially slurring any of the parties concerned, nor their reported supporters.

There is a lot of that going on, and I'm attempting to avoid any of that.


_Now_ what am I supposedly repeating?

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> ...


The apparent wound _does_ need explaining, as so far, it's the _only_ *visible* sign of a wound, presented as evidence of a sustained assault upon Zimmerman, to be offered in his defence.

----------


## S Landreth

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by ENT
> ...



here's how it's explained: Moonbattery

where Boon got the picture  :Smile: 

the story at the site above: http://moonbattery.com/?p=9880

----------


## ENT

There's a lot of apparently biased reporting of the case and a hell of a lot more biased opinionating and drumming up of support by both sides.

The site Moonbattery offers it's own apparent pro-Zimmerman opinion in captioning the pic, also.

----------


## bsnub

Moonbattery is nothing more than a far right American propaganda website. It does not deal in fact or news. It is nothing more than a mouthpiece for the most extreme in the US.

----------


## Boon Mee

> The apparent wound _does_ need explaining, as so far, it's the _only_ *visible* sign of a wound, presented as evidence of a sustained assault upon Zimmerman, to be offered in his defence.


If it walks and talks like a duck...? :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## S Landreth

George Zimmerman Video: Killer of Trayvon Martin - Zoomed in by 600 Percent - Slow Motion




no blood, no broken nose, no cut

if it walks like a duck

----------


## guyinthailand

> Even with two hands, he only had one brain and could only_ concentrate_ on one action at a time, either using his phone or using his gun.


_"Your Honor, I offer the quote above as to the unreliability-- or mental derangement--of the defendant, Ent"

_(Hey, Ent, when you're talking about only being able to concentrate on one thing at a time...speak for yourself, okay?)

----------


## guyinthailand

> Zimmerman's face indicated no such injuries, although Zimmerman's father alleges that Martin persistently beat his son's face and nose, and bashed his son's head repeatedly into the concrete footpath simultaneously threatening to kill him.
> 
> There is so far no visible evidence to support that contention.


Is Your Honor only allowing visible evidence from sensational pictures?  Excuse me, Your Honor, what if Martin was trying to wrestle the gun away from Zimmerman (and use it against him)?  What if Martin tackled Zimmerman and 'took him to the ground', and jerked his neck side to side?  What if Martin kicked Zimmerman in the balls?  What if Martin poked his fingers in Zimmerman's eyes, rendering him effectively blind for a while?  What if Martin punched or kicked Zimmerman in the solar plexus?   These are not visible, Your Honor.  May we consider these possibilities, Your Honor, or will you only allow sensational photographs of bloodied faces?"

----------


## robuzo

^It doesn't matter. At issue is the fact that an armed man shot an unarmed man (a minor) and was not charged. The reason he wasn't charged is that, despite the misgivings of the local homicide investigator, based on current Florida law it was thought that there was insufficient cause to bring the shooter in, even for negligent homicide or manslaughter. Everything else is tangential. Interesting to speculate about, maybe, but not central.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> 
> The apparent wound _does_ need explaining, as so far, it's the _only_ *visible* sign of a wound, presented as evidence of a sustained assault upon Zimmerman, to be offered in his defence.
> 
> 
> If it walks and talks like a duck...?


Even a duck with no legs to stand on and a single feather popped up on it's head?
Well........ :Smile:   :mid:

----------


## guyinthailand

> ^It doesn't matter. At issue is the fact that an  armed man shot an unarmed man (a minor) and was not charged. The reason  he wasn't charged is that, despite the misgivings of the local homicide  investigator, based on current Florida law it was thought that there was  insufficient cause to bring the shooter in, even for negligent homicide  or manslaughter. Everything else is tangential. Interesting to  speculate about, maybe, but not central.


It may matter because Martin's crowd may try and say there is no VISIBLE evidence on Zimmerman of Martin's having attacked him.  But as I suggest there are many ways to hurt a person without leaving visible evidence, contrary to what Ent has been implying.

The entirety of Zimmerman's defense possibly rests upon his being able to demonstrate he shot Martin in self defense.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> Even with two hands, he only had one brain and could only_ concentrate_ on one action at a time, either using his phone or using his gun.
> 
> 
> _"Your Honor, I offer the quote above as to the unreliability-- or mental derangement--of the defendant, Ent"
> 
> _(Hey, Ent, when you're talking about only being able to concentrate on one thing at a time...speak for yourself, okay?)


You're losing it again, bro, just relax, chill.    ::chitown::

----------


## guyinthailand

> You're losing it again, bro, just relax, chill.


Looks like Ent can not only not do TWO things at once.  It appears he can't even do ONE thing at once (such as string together an intellgent sentence that relates to the discussion.)

the following is priceless:



> Even with two hands, he only had one brain and could only_ concentrate_ on one action at a time, either using his phone or using his gun.


Ent, you might think of applying as a source of gags for the Simpsons.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> Zimmerman's face indicated no such injuries, although Zimmerman's father alleges that Martin persistently beat his son's face and nose, and bashed his son's head repeatedly into the concrete footpath simultaneously threatening to kill him.
> 
> There is so far no visible evidence to support that contention.
> 
> 
> Is Your Honor only allowing visible evidence from sensational pictures?  Excuse me, Your Honor, what if Martin was trying to wrestle the gun away from Zimmerman (and use it against him)?  *What if Martin tackled Zimmerman and 'took him to the ground', and jerked his neck side to side?  What if Martin kicked Zimmerman in the balls?  What if Martin poked his fingers in Zimmerman's eyes, rendering him effectively blind for a while?  What if Martin punched or kicked Zimmerman in the solar plexus?*   These are not visible, Your Honor. _ May we consider these possibilities,_ Your Honor, or will you only allow sensational photographs of bloodied faces?"


It's nice to see you referring to me with such great respect and appropriate respect, young man.   :Smile: 

"_May we consider these possibilities, Your Honor?_"

The above highlighted in your quoted post?
Certainly not! Unless you have some evidence to support your contentions.

_All_ pertinent evidence may be considered in the light of legal argument only.

Now, get back in your cage!   :tieme:

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
> ^It doesn't matter. At issue is the fact that an  armed man shot an unarmed man (a minor) and was not charged. The reason  he wasn't charged is that, despite the misgivings of the local homicide  investigator, based on current Florida law it was thought that there was  insufficient cause to bring the shooter in, even for negligent homicide  or manslaughter. Everything else is tangential. Interesting to  speculate about, maybe, but not central.
> 
> 
> It may matter because Martin's crowd may try and say there is no VISIBLE evidence on Zimmerman of Martin's having attacked him.  But as I suggest there are many ways to hurt a person without leaving visible evidence, contrary to what Ent has been implying.
> 
> The entirety of Zimmerman's defense possibly rests upon his being able to demonstrate he shot Martin in self defense.


Just look at other cases in which the law was invoked. A 15-year-old (black) kid killed in a shootout between (black) gangbangers. Nobody does time, because it was self-defense.

Look at it this way. Zimmerman instigated the incident by stalking, which was noticed by Martin. There was some sort of tussle, indicating at least a degree of participation by Martin, who didn't run to his dad's house for cover (I seriously doubt Zimmerman could have outrun and caught a tall, healthy 17-year-old). Both participated in the scuffle to at least some degree willingly, and both likely were covered by the same "stand your ground" provision. Had Martin killed Zimmerman he would, in the opinion of the guy who wrote the law, have been entitled to the same defense.

What this law does is essentially tell people it's OK to settle differences with violence. That is not the same thing as permitting people to defend themselves. What it is is uncivilized, and frankly I think it is a society gone a bit mad.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
>  
> You're losing it again, bro, just relax, chill.
> 
> 
> Looks like Ent can not only not do TWO things at once.  It appears he can't even do ONE thing at once (such as string together an intellgent sentence that relates to the discussion.)
> 
> ...


Ad hominem attacks are uncalled for.

One thing though, if you're able to concentrate on more than one activity at a time, I suggest you apply for a job as a juggler.

You could always start at the Senate then the local court house and work your way up to a proper circus.   :mid:

----------


## guyinthailand

> .
> 
> _All_ pertinent evidence may be considered in the light of legal argument only.



Actually, it will come down to what a jury of 12 people believes.  If Zimmerman can convince them his head was shaken, eyes struck, etc etc--that is, he fired in self-defense--then he may not go to jail.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Ad hominem attacks are uncalled for.



Oh, come on, Ent, you should have thought this through BEFORE you made the  'one brain' quote.





> Even with two hands, he only had one brain and could only_ concentrate_ on one action at a time, either using his phone or using his gun.


Priceless.

----------


## ENT

[QUOTE=robuzo;2059045][QUOTE=guyinthailand;2059013]


> It may matter because Martin's crowd may try and say there is* no VISIBLE evidence* on Zimmerman of Martin's having attacked him.  But as I suggest there are many ways to hurt a person without leaving visible evidence, contrary to what Ent has been implying.
> 
> 
> Both participated in the scuffle to at least some degree willingly, and both likely were covered by the same "stand your ground" provision. Had Martin killed Zimmerman he would, *in the opinion of the guy who wrote the law, have been entitled to the same defense.*
> 
> What this law does is essentially tell people it's OK to settle differences with violence. That is not the same thing as permitting people to defend themselves. *What it is is uncivilized, and frankly I think it is a society gone a bit mad.*




* no VISIBLE evidence* 

Any medical evidence can be determined by an impartial forensic medical examiner and offered to the court by both defence and prosecution.


*in the opinion of the guy who wrote the law, have been entitled to the same defense.*

Very likely, from what I've read of that law so far, but it's interpretation is as yet not sufficiently clear


*What it is is uncivilized, and frankly I think it is a society gone a bit mad*

I wholeheartedly agree.

----------


## robuzo

[QUOTE=ENT;2059064][QUOTE=robuzo;2059045]


> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
> 
> It may matter because Martin's crowd may try and say there is* no VISIBLE evidence* on Zimmerman of Martin's having attacked him.  But as I suggest there are many ways to hurt a person without leaving visible evidence, contrary to what Ent has been implying.
> 
> 
> Both participated in the scuffle to at least some degree willingly, and both likely were covered by the same "stand your ground" provision. Had Martin killed Zimmerman he would, *in the opinion of the guy who wrote the law, have been entitled to the same defense.*
> 
> ...


How about editing your post and fixing the quotes?

----------


## robuzo

You're a mensch, Spike:
U.S. News - Spike Lee apologizes to Florida couple, agrees to pay for retweeting their address
Film director Spike Lee has apologized to a Florida couple and agreed to pay their expenses for fleeing their home after they were harassed when he retweeted an address that was described as the home of George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch captain who shot Trayvon Martin.
"Spike Lee did the right thing," the couple’s lawyer, Matt Morgan, tweeted. "The McClain’s claim is fully resolved. Thank you Spike!!!"

----------


## BaitongBoy

> I suggest you apply for a job as a juggler. You could always start at the Senate then the local court house and work your way up to a proper circus.


Send me the paperwork, please, Ent...I'm good with my hands...

 :Smile:

----------


## guyinthailand

> *What it is is uncivilized, and frankly I think it is a society gone a bit mad*
> 
> I wholeheartedly agree.


And if it turns out zimmerman was defending himself, and justified in shooting, who is mad then, eh?

----------


## BaitongBoy

> who is mad then, eh?


Every Black in America...

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> 
> Ad hominem attacks are uncalled for.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, come on, Ent, you should have thought this through BEFORE you made the  'one brain' quote.
> ...


It was once believed that the dinosaur had two brains, one in its head and the other near its arse.

Now we know that it was not the case.

*But,* if _you_ think it's _possible,_ maybe you could demonstrate the possibility by demonstrating to us _how_ you can think with your nether regions.

 ::chitown::

----------


## guyinthailand

If a black man shot a white man in self defense I would defend the black man.  Black people who automatically assume the 'white' man is guilty in this case are idiots. 

f*#k them.

But if it is proven Zimmerman went 'berserk' and wrongfully took a life, well, then f*#k him.

----------


## guyinthailand

> It was once believed that the dinosaur had two brains, one in its head and the other near its arse.
> 
> Now we know that it was not the case.
> 
> *But,* if _you_ think it's _possible,_ maybe you could demonstrate the possibility by demonstrating to us _how_ you can think with your nether regions.


Someone please make sure Ent is taking his meds.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *What it is is uncivilized, and frankly I think it is a society gone a bit mad*
> 
> I wholeheartedly agree.
> 
> ...


I don't think that that was the point that Robuzo raised.
Rather that the _intention_ of the law formulated was open to gross mis-application.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Even with two hands, he only had one brain and could only concentrate on one action at a time, either using his phone or using his gun.





> It was once believed that the dinosaur had two brains, one in its head and the other near its arse.
> 
> But, if you think it's possible, maybe you could demonstrate the possibility by demonstrating to us how you can think with your nether regions.


All I can think when I read the above quotes is I'm afraid to find out what part of the dinosaur  you came from.

----------


## koman

I just watched the Hannity show on FOX....(yea go ahead and shoot me... :Smile: )
The Martin family lawyer appeared to argue with Mr Hannity....and I have to say he sounded pretty lame.   

Apparently they now have a mysterious witness who is saying that Zimmerman was on top of Martin.   Hannity asks.....so where has this witness been for the last month.......glazed look from lawyer.    The witness who stated Martin was on top of Zimmerman came forward on the date of the event and made a formal statement.   The credibility of this latest "witness" will be quite a challenge I think.   Talk about clutching for straws... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

The "injuries" were discussed after the lawyer stated that Zimmerman showed no signs of injury etc after a violent struggle.  I have never heard of it being described by Zimmerman as such....but never mind.  It was a struggle plain and simple...which resulted in the discharge of a firearm.

   Again, Zimmerman had been attended by para-medics an hour or so before the controversial video was made when he eventually arrived at the police station.    He had been cleaned up by the medics so there would not be much in the way of visible injury.    There was however some lacerations on the back of his head, and grass stains on the back of his shirt....which would indicate that he had indeed been on his back......perhaps after getting hit on the nose????   It does seem to fit. 

  It was again repeated that his nose was in fact broken....but that would not be a visible injury.  At least not until the swelling appeared later on.

The amount of time he was involved in this stuggle seems to have become a big issue in the minds of some people.....3 mins...1 min....40 seconds....who knows
Do people involved in struggles concentrate on timing the event?   A one minute violent struggle probably seems like a lot longer to the people involved.....
Perhaps there will be some way to establish the duration.....but I'm not too clear on how revelant it will be.

If Zimmermans statements about his struggle and injuries are true, then there will be the testimony of the para-medics and others who were present at the actual scene.    It would seem pretty foolish to be making such claims if they are not true....because there will be plenty of witnesses  to either support (or refute) such statements.

In any case, the Martin lawyer had nothing much to offer, and seemed quite uncomfortable when confronted with some of the Zimmerman statements and other defence material.    While the Martin defenders continue to argue over the smoke and mirrors stuff, Zimmerman's position seems to be gaining credibility daily.  

The state finds itself in a tricky position.  If they can't come up with enough to charge and send Zimmerman to trial, all hell could break loose because the black community...or at least the black politicians, Panthers, activists and far left whites have already decided his guilt, regardless of the serious questions still unanswered,  about what really happened.

If they do try him and fail to convict, all hell could still break loose for the same reasons. 

This whole thing has become a political football and almost entirely because of the incredibly dishonest and slanted reporting by the major media networks.

NBC as an example aired a highly doctored version of the controversial 911 tape which edited out some really key parts to make Zimmerman look like a real vigilante.   A short example:  " He seems like he's up to no good.  He looks black. "  (which makes it seem like Zimmerman is racially charged and doing a bit of racial profile work)

They left out the bit before;  which is the 911 operation asking: " What does he look like?"    to which Zimmerman answers......"ah he looks black"    

This is a deliberate distortion of what was communicated between Zimmerman and the 911 operator....and it changes the listeners perception considerably depending on if they hear the full exchange or the carefully edited version.
.....and they call this shit journalism...

The Black Panthers have a "bounty" out on Zimmerman.....and Spike Lee is broadcasting addresses and phone numbers.......of the wrong people.....and so it goes on and on and on...... :mid:     The one good thing to come out of that is that Mr Lee is probably going to get relieved of a whole pile of cash after the innocent victims of this big mouth sue his sorry ass off.......the settlement could not be big enough for me....I hope they bankrupt the asshole.

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by guyinthailand
> 
> who is mad then, eh?
> 
> 
> Every Black in America...


Even if I think they might not be seeing the forest for the trees in this case, I can't really blame black Americans- or any Americans or other observers who know of the history of racism in America- for assuming that racism played a central role. Given that the majority of apologists for Zimmerman appear to be basing their argument for his remaining uncharged with any crime on smearing the character of the victim it would be hard to convince them otherwise. Is it any wonder black people in the US get the impression that their lives are not as valuable as whites' in the eyes of Florida justice? 

I'm still a bit flabbergasted that Zimmerman wasn't charged, and I suspected racism myself prior to taking a look at the precedent cases in Florida in which the "stand your ground" law was used to free people who killed in "self-defense" after instigating a conflict. Now I think the cops had some reason to think their hands were tied, although clearly there is at least one homicide cop in Sanford who thinks Zimmerman should be charged and at least face trial. Even if he faces trial and is absolved I think it would go a long way toward highlighting the problems with the law as it stands.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> Even with two hands, he only had one brain and could only concentrate on one action at a time, either using his phone or using his gun.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As you so ably demonstrate, thinking out of your arse is a no-no.    :Smile:

----------


## guyinthailand

> thinking out of your arse is a no-no.


Did you write  this line for Homer or for Bart?

----------


## ENT

Koman
Your post# 383, above.
You point out how this shooting and its effects on American society has ballooned out of all proportion, creating the possibility for extremely emotional reactions from both sides of the divide.
You point rightly, at the press hooplah that has caused a lot of this, however, the blame for whole issue is not to be placed upon the press and public alone.

The initial cause for this furore is in fact the intransigence of the initial police commander who blocked the primary investigation and refused to have Zimmerman charged in the beginning.
Had he not behaved in such a way, Zimmerman would have been charged and dealt ith and the matter would have been dealt to in a more or less routine manner.

Instead, due to more than simply police inaction, but also by behind the scenes influence (as indicated by Zimmerman's previous brushes with the law) an attempt was made to minimise the relevance of evidence seen as sufficient to charge Zimmerman. The evidence was arbitrarily dismissed as insufficient to launch a prosecution..
Now this is the result.

----------


## Boon Mee

Does New Sanford PD Video Show Zimmerman With Broken Nose? 

 Check it out

Stay tuned... ::chitown::

----------


## ENT

The broken nose Zimmerman received would have been easily and quickly sorted by a pinch and pull of the displaced cartilage if it was a minor break.
A plaster across the nose to hold the cartilage in place is standard, as is the pinch and pull technique. Very little bleeding occurs, maybe none.
This method used by rugby players often enough. Not a serious injury, usually a result of a sides-wipe across or against the nose.

A more serious direct pummelling or a severe blow directly to the bridge of the nose is far more traumatic will result in bruising around the eye sockets with severe swelling and pain across the nose and eyes, often "black eye(s)" and bleeding in the eyes.
Broken nasal bones can occur.
He did *not* receive that level of violence to his face at all. 

The cut to the back of his head is minimal, consistent with a knock or fall.
I can not tell enough from the video clips.
The examining doctor the next day could ascertain if concussion or other serious damage had been incurred.

----------


## OhOh

> If a black man shot a white man in self defense I would defend the black man. Black people who automatically assume the 'white' man is guilty in this case are idiots. 
> 
> f*#k them.
> 
> But if it is proven Zimmerman went 'berserk' and wrongfully took a life, well, then f*#k him.





> This whole thing has become a political football and almost entirely because of the incredibly dishonest and slanted reporting by the major media networks.


I am appalled at the lack of decisiveness based on the "facts" as reported by the "major media networks" and no immediate hanging by the posse, what is the US coming too. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

I blame Nixon kowtowing to Mao.

----------


## Minnie Maugham

> You're a mensch, Spike:
> U.S. News - Spike Lee apologizes to Florida couple, agrees to pay for retweeting their address
> Film director Spike Lee has apologized to a Florida couple and agreed to pay their expenses for fleeing their home after they were harassed when he retweeted an address that was described as the home of George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch captain who shot Trayvon Martin.
> "Spike Lee did the right thing," the couples lawyer, Matt Morgan, tweeted. "The McClains claim is fully resolved. Thank you Spike!!!"


Mensch, my a**. IMO, you, Spike & the rest of the race baiters are all a shande. For the self-opined Renaissance man you profess to be, robuzot, your showing here --  formed opinions and assertions all based on supposition and leftist gobble-gook -- proves you are anything but. I'm waiting for an altercation between a white and a Hispanic -- who you gonna back with no proof on that one?

----------


## guyinthailand

> The evidence was arbitrarily dismissed as insufficient to launch a prosecution..


You mean, to you and some others it was "arbitrarily dismissed".  But many others believe Zimmerman acted in self-defense and THAT is why he wasn't charged.

----------


## guyinthailand

> The examining doctor the next day could ascertain if concussion or other serious damage had been incurred.


*Wrong.*

_"Concussion may be under-diagnosed. The lack of the highly noticeable  signs and symptoms that are frequently present in other forms of head  injury could lead clinicians to miss the injury... A retrospective survey in 2005 found that more than 88% of concussions go unrecognized.__Diagnosis of concussion can be complicated ..." _ (Wiki)

----------


## pickel

> who you gonna back with no proof on that one?


The same question should be asked of you. I'm sure you're scouring your favorite rabid right blogs looking for the "truth", without even pondering the fact that they are just as hysterical as Al Sharpton.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
>   The evidence was arbitrarily dismissed as insufficient to launch a prosecution..
> 
> 
> You mean, to you and some others it was "arbitrarily dismissed".  But *many others believe Zimmerman acted in self-defense and THAT is why he wasn't charged.*



"many others believe Zimmerman acted in self-defense and THAT is why he wasn't charged."

That is why the case has become the disgraceful show and media circus it now is.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> The examining doctor the next day could ascertain if concussion or other serious damage had been incurred.
> 
> 
> *Wrong.*
> 
> _"Concussion may be under-diagnosed. The lack of the highly noticeable  signs and symptoms that are frequently present in other forms of head  injury could lead clinicians to miss the injury... A retrospective survey in 2005 found that more than 88% of concussions go unrecognized.__Diagnosis of concussion can be complicated ..." _ (Wiki)


*"Concussion may be under-diagnosed*

Very possible, but Zimmerman, a month later, has still not complained of, nor shown any symptoms of concussion or subdural haematoma or trauma linked to his injuries of that time.

----------


## sabang

I'm not going to bother hunting down the link, in this trial by media fiasco, but a video of Zimmerman at the Police station showed little (very little) visual evidence of physical injury, apparently.

Many people seem to be acting as if a legal trial itself is a verdict, which is manifestly not the case. A legal trial at it's root is a 'fact finding' exercise, and there are advocates for both the defence and prosecution, making their case before an impartial Judge and (perhaps) Jury. 

Frankly, because of the public uproar this has caused, the case should probably automatically go to trial- the thinking being, get everything out in the open before due, impartial legal process. To use the saying, the Law must not just be upheld, but must be seen to be upheld. And the Court system is where culpability or not should be decided- not the bloody media. Neither 'celebrity lawyers' (who in fact is only acting as a PR man at this stage, because there are no charges to address), nor black populists like Louis Farrakhan etc.

You've got blacks saying he's guilty, simply because the shooter is white and the victim is black. You've got white's saying he's innocent, because the victim is black and the shooter is white too. You've got the usual rabble getting involved on both sides, and saying the usual things- the black power populists, the right wing talking heads, blah blah- I mean we know exactly what they are both gonna say from the outset. None of them are legal practitioners, or involved with the case- they are media figures, and activists.

The real question, from a legal practitioners standpoint, is if there are credible grounds to try for murder, or 'merely' manslaughter (based on 'reasonable response'). This decision would also be based on existence, credibility and admissability of evidence- ie, if someone thinks he 'probably' murdered the guy, but there is no way to back that up by credible, admissible evidence, there is no point going for the first degree murder trial.

Of course in the US, everything is a media and money circus. You've got a "celebrity" (only in amerka :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): ) Defence lawyer involved, even though Zimmerman has not been charged with anything- and they don't come cheap. Predictably, he's playing the media, the PR spin- and that fact alone means the case should be tried in a Court in my books- I mean he's gone to the Law, so the Law it is then. You hire a lawyer to represent you in a court of law- not to court the populist media. I doubt there are grounds for first degree murder personally, but it's up to the legal beagles to decide that based on the _prima facie_ evidence at hand, not the rants of the media, celebrity lawyers, or populist bigots on both sides. Not sure if you use this term in the states, but the matter is currently undergoing the 'discovery' process, on the back of which the decision *if* to charge, and if so *what* to charge is made.

The cause celebre' this case has become says a lot more about the USA than the case itself. A table recently pasted by booner showed that actually homicide in the States is not really a race issue at all- because it's almost always people of the same bloody color that shoot each other!

In terms of a legally substantive issue, this 'stand your ground' law should probably be examined too. Self Defence is an admissible legal defence anywhere in the world actually- so what then is the point of this as a seperate Statute in itself? It already exists. Smells more of NRA lobbying than anything of legal merit, there is just no point to it.

----------


## Boon Mee

> The cause celebre' this case has become says a lot more about the USA than the case itself.


It certainly does and one of the main reasons the case is getting such attention is due to the race-baiting president it has.  He's no better than Al Sharpton and much like one of his heros - Malchom X.  Worst.  President.  Ever.

Not adding fuel to the fire, but in case you’re sick of being force-fed pictures from when he was 12 or the heavily photoshopped hoodie shot, here’s what Trayvon Martin really looked like:



He chose this to represent him on one of his Twitter feeds, where he called himself T33ZY_TAUGHT_M3 and encouraged one of his fellow thugs to commit murder with the tweet, “Plzz shoot da #mf dat lied 2 u!”

Just your average boy next door, eh?

----------


## guyinthailand

> Originally Posted by guyinthailand
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by ENT
> ...


So, what you're saying is either (or both) 
1) law enforcement officers, believing someone acted in self-defense, should go ahead anyway and charge that person with murder/manslaughter, etc  

2) You, Ent, know what the cops don't know, that Zimmerman wasn't acting in self-defense and should be charged with murde/manslaughter.

----------


## guyinthailand

> *"Concussion may be under-diagnosed*
> 
> Very possible, but Zimmerman, a month later, has still not complained of, nor shown any symptoms of concussion or subdural haematoma or trauma linked to his injuries of that time.


How the f*#k do you know what he has complained of or hasn't complained of?  Just because you haven't seen it in the media circus?

----------


## guyinthailand

> a video of Zimmerman at the Police station showed little (very little) visual evidence of physical injury, apparently.


Let's not forget one thing: Zimmerman doesn't have to show ANY injuries to have a jury believe Martin was trying to inflict grave bodily harm on Zimmerman.

There is no requirement in law that says someone claiming self-defense has to show injuries.

----------


## koman

Why are people bleating on and on about Zimmermans injuries....serious or not serious.    Where did he ever claim his injuries were "serious"?    He has some kind of injuries  (not highly visible on video clips or perhaps serious in nature)  in places that would seem consistent with what he claimed happened.  These injuries and marks add credibility to his story.....thats all.   Sounds like even the gunshot wound on Martin is also consistent with his version of things...

The Police did not change Zimmerman initially because they claim that there simply was enough evidence of self defence.  That (as ENT as others have pointed out) is the genesis of the current media and political fiasco.  

Overall, Zimmerman seems to have a few of the known facts on his side....not that the Martin camp is interested is such things when they can keep drumming up the race and white vigilante angle.

When we have black Senators making statements like "Trevon Martin was hunted down like a rabid dog"   you know that facts are of no importance to these people.

----------


## ENT

> So, what you're saying is either (or both) 
> 1) law enforcement officers, believing someone acted in self-defense, should go ahead anyway and charge that person with murder/manslaughter, etc  
> 
> 2) You, Ent, know what the cops don't know, that Zimmerman wasn't acting in self-defense and should be charged with murde/manslaughter.


Not at all.

Law enforcement officers are not the judge and jury nor the courts, simply *law enforcement*, a totally separate department.
The officer who decides to charge a person for a breach of law is also a law enforcement officer, not a judge or magistrate.
He can only prefer a charge to be laid.

It is up to the a state department of prosecutions (or it's US equivalent) to take the case to court.
Usually, the registrar of the court will advise the police and/or the public prosecutor if the case has sufficient merit to be heard.

In the US, I think the process sometimes goes through a grand jury hearing if there is any doubt as to the merit of a trial in some cases.
To the best of my knowledge, in this case, a senior judge or state attorney, has indicated that the case will go to trial, and not go through a grand jury process, which may be too politically and socially divisive, as emotions are running too high over the matter to guarantee a fair hearing there.

As for me knowing what the actual medical report on Zimmerman contains, or what the police evidence report contains, don't be ridiculous, of course I don't know.

Your interpretation of my words is laughable, as you flounder around trying to prove innocence or guilt, one side and another.

Don't be so pathetic.

I have merely questioned or speculated on the reported scenario, and I've avoided throwing my hat into one camp or another.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> *"Concussion may be under-diagnosed*
> 
> Very possible, but Zimmerman, a month later, has still *not complained of, nor shown* any symptoms of concussion or subdural haematoma or trauma linked to his injuries of that time.
> 
> 
> How the f*#k do you know what he has complained of or hasn't complained of?  Just because you haven't seen it in the media circus?



The operative words in my above quote are;

*not complained of, nor shown*

Implying that he has neither made a complaint of nor *shown* in any sense, word or deed, or by any report or indication that he has a complaint in the matter.

Now please stop trying to stir things up, it's showing your bias.

----------


## guyinthailand

> As for me knowing what the actual medical report on Zimmerman contains, or what the police evidence report contains, don't be ridiculous, of course I don't know.


But you've blathered on and on and on about the injuries you say are or are not there.  

I've shown repeatedly your blathering is baseless.




> Your interpretation of my words is laughable, as you flounder around trying to prove innocence or guilt, one side and another.


My "interpretation" of your words!

Pussy!  you can't even admit you already took a stand.   You're spineless! * How does it feel to be spineless?* 




> I have merely questioned or speculated on the reported scenario, and I've avoided throwing my hat into one camp or another.


bullshit!  You've made it clear in many posts you've already convicted Zimmerman.
Don't try and weasel out of it now.

P.s. I haven't tried to "prove" innocence or guilt. I've merely countered your lynching of Zimmerman with legitimate questions about the incident.

----------


## ENT

Which posts did I do that in?
Please quote.

Your accusations are totally nuts, pure* troll.*

----------


## guyinthailand

> Which posts did I do that in?
> Please quote.
> 
> Your accusations are totally nuts, pure* troll.*


Ent, all anyone has to do is to read this thread and read your posts to see how you 'feel' about this incident.

Don't be a wimp and back away from what you've said and implied:
you feel a 'vigilante' murdered the poor, oppressed Martin.

You're a charlatan if you now start to say otherwise.

----------


## ENT

I hope they do read this thread, _all_ of it.

Lots of good points raised about the pros and cons of several points raised.
The autopsy reports must be due to be released at some time soon.

The undertaker's take on Martin's body was interesting, he was somewhat disturbed by all that has gone on re. the police handling of the matter.

There's a video of his comments, on u-tube, I'll see if i can get it.

The interview of Zimmerman's supporters doesn't show them as very comfortable with the way things are goung so far, but. we'll wait and see how things develop next week.

----------


## ENT

Dry up, GinTh, you don't make sense, a stupid bitch-slapping is all you seem to want.
Now go away.

Would the moderators please sort this out?

I have reported your post.

----------


## Cujo

> Dry up, GinTh, you don't make sense, a stupid bitch-slapping is all you seem to want.
> Now go away.
> 
> Would the moderators please sort this out?
> 
> I have reported your post.


Reported his post for what exactly?



> Ent, all anyone has to do is to read this thread and read your posts to see how you 'feel' about this incident.
> 
> Don't be a wimp and back away from what you've said and implied:
> you feel a 'vigilante' murdered the poor, oppressed Martin.
> 
> You're a charlatan if you now start to say otherwise.


Calling you out on what he sees as backpedalling?

----------


## guyinthailand

> Dry up, GinTh, you don't make sense, a stupid bitch-slapping is all you seem to want.
> Now go away.
> 
> Would the moderators please sort this out?
> 
> I have reported your post.



*Ent: 'Waaaaaa!!!! Mommy, guyinthailand hit me!  Waaaaa!!*_'_




> Dry up, GinTh, you don't make sense, a stupid bitch-slapping is all you seem to want.


your posts questioning my penis... and now this one saying I want a " bitch slapping",
your earlier posts alledging my gay-ness 
your earlier posts about you can beat up whomever

AND YOU WANT TO REPORT ME?!

----------


## guyinthailand

> Dry up, GinTh, you don't make sense, a stupid bitch-slapping is all you seem to want.


Ahh, now yet another facet of the personality of Ent has been revealed!

He believes _'a stupid bitch slapping'_ is called for with anyone who questions his stance. 

Ent is so deluded he even thinks I *"seem to want"* a *"bitch slapping"*.

 Oh, Ent, I see, if you were to give me one of your "bitch slappings" you could then tell the judge "your Honor, it's okay, he wanted it".

Ent, you and people like you are the ones who should be on trial here.

*Ent*: *Fascist name-calling P.C. punk*.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> Dry up, GinTh, you don't make sense, a stupid bitch-slapping is all you seem to want.
> Now go away.
> 
> Would the moderators please sort this out?
> 
> I have reported your post.
> ...


Again you posted a pack of lies.
Tut tut little fellah.

No quotes or references to any of my posts to support your claims in your reply.
Only to be expected, there are none.

A well documented fact is that those with collections of knives or guns or have a propensity to carry them around on a daily basis are suffering from penis envy.
The same condition is often noted in owners of large bikes and souped up trophy cars.

Like "Big Tim Sharky", for example and his trophy cars and self promotion.
An obvious closet gay, with sex problems by all accounts.

I don't go around beating up anyone, nor boast of it, I leave that up to cowards like you. Do you go to a gym, by any chance?
Shape up with the boys a bit? Admire manly men? Get a twitch when see a katoey? Do you have a fag bag to carry your knives?  "Big Tim Sharky" did.

I'm not scared of anyone, I don't need to be, certainly not you.
You seem to be frightened of something, you carry knives and a gun, as you uselessly try to defend your fragile ego in real life as well as on this thread.

There'a lot of frightened, emotional posters on this thread literally freaking over the possibility of Zimmerman's being charged.
Yup, scared stiff in fact that if it all goes against Zimmerman that it'll be bad for them too.

You're not the average white middle class American that's wondering what the hell is going on, at all.

You're rants are just plain rabid, unintelligent and consistently abusive.
Maybe it's because no one wants to know about Ayoob and his "advice" that you think is top end stuff.

Carry on Seppo, you're powerless to do anything about the case, and it's really screwing you around, obviously
You'd be just as powerless if you met anyone, unarmed.

Just take a pill, a cup of tea and a good lie down, you silly little man.

----------


## ENT

The funeral director who prepared Trayvon Martin's body for burial told a TV anchor that Martin had no injuries to his hands or arms that would indicate a fight had occurred.
Richard Kurtz told CNN's Nancy Grace on Wednesday that Martin had a gunshot wound to his upper chest, but any other injury would have been difficult to detect because an autopsy was performed on the teen's body before he received it.
"As for his hands and knuckles, I don't see any evidence he had been fighting anybody," Kurtz said.
A Volusia County spokesman, Dave Byron, has confirmed that an autopsy was performed by them, but those results could take more than 30 days to be released. Results will not be unsealed until the investigation becomes "inactive."
A special prosecutor has been appointed to the case, and the Department of Justice is doing its own investigation. A Florida Grand Jury will meet on April 10 to determine if indictments should be issued.


Read more: Trayvon Martin's funeral director said body didn't have fight injuries - NYPOST.com

----------


## guyinthailand

> ]
> No quotes or references to any of my posts to support your claims in your reply.


It's not rocket science.  All anyone has to do is read your many earlier posts.  




> A well documented fact is that those with collections of knives or guns or have a propensity to carry them around on a daily basis are suffering from penis envy.


Ent, the Bully, tried but couldn't get guyinthailand 'in trouble' with the Mods for shooting down all Ents ridiculous and misguided posts. So now Ent is back at the penis thing again.  Just can't stop talking about penises, can you Ent?

You're downright fascinated with them.




> I don't go around beating up anyone, nor boast of it,


*Liar.*

(Ent's words from earlier posts: _"at close quarters some of us are very capable of taking a gun or a knife off you or even help you to shoot yourself or cut you own throat."_ and  "_Dry up, GinTh, you don't make sense, a stupid bitch-slapping is all you seem to want."_)

Ent, you're such a *weasel*: can't admit you've already convicted Zimmerman in your own mind and here on the forum and you can't admit you like to threaten people.  I can't decide: weasel...*or coward*.  




> An obvious closet gay, with sex problems by all accounts.


You're projecting your own stuff onto others , Ent.  And you sure are fascinated with talking about gays. And penises.




> I don't go around beating up anyone, nor boast of it, I leave that up to cowards like you. Do you go to a gym, by any chance?
> Shape up with the boys a bit? Admire manly men? Get a twitch when see a katoey? Do you have a fag bag to carry your knives?  "Big Tim Sharky" did.


Now you sound a bit...rabid...and a bit...deranged.  "Twitching", "katoeys", "fag bag" (I don't even know what that is, but I'm sure Ent does!)




> I'm not scared of anyone, I don't need to be, certainly not you.


Why do you feel the need to make statements like this if you're not beset by certain fears?  All your talk of penises, gays, katoeys, 'manly men', 'twitching', 'fag bags'.  You sound bursting with fears.  




> You seem to be frightened of something,


You're projecting yet again, Ent!    




> you carry knives and a gun, as you uselessly try to defend your fragile ego in real life as well as on this thread.


 I think it would help you to discuss your ideas of fragile egos, guns and knives with a therapist of some sort.  




> There'a lot of frightened, emotional posters on this thread literally freaking  blah blah, scared  too.blahblahblah  You're not the average white middle class American that's wondering blahblahblah.You're rants are just plain rabid, unintelligent and consistently abusive.Maybe it's because no one wants to know about Ayoob and his  "advice" that you think is top end stuff. Carry on Seppo, you're powerless to do anything about the case, and it's  really screwing you around, obviously.


You're ranting again, Ent.  "_plain, rabid, unitelligent & consistently abusive_" ? (actually if you read my posts you will see I clarified and countered your many misguided and erroneous assumptions and statements)  And _"no one wants to know about Ayoob"_ (of course they do, that's why his advice is sought by cops, attorneys, judges and citizens world-wide not to mention his clarification of lethal force laws may prove to be Zimmerman's undoing--or his salvation).  And you think I feel _"powerless to do anything about the case and it's really screwing you around" _ (Say what? Ent, you realize you're projecting your own insecurities onto me, right? I don't want to 'do anything' about the case.  I already said if Zimmerman is proven to have caused a wrongful death then I hope he goes to jail, but I've also said I don't want him lynched by the likes of you to satisfy some misguided PC liberal/black-power agenda).




> You'd be just as powerless if  you met anyone, unarmed.


Your therapist will tell you your statement above comes from a deep-seated insecurity.  Like so many of your posts and statements, you couldn't be more wrong.

----------


## ENT

::chitown::

----------


## ENT

*Witness: Zimmerman 'never ... tried to help' Trayvon Martin*

A woman who says she and her roommate witnessed the final moments of Trayvon Martin's life told Dateline NBC that George Zimmerman had *"his hands pressed on his back"* and "never turned him over or tried to help him."

Mary Cutcher told Dateline that she and her roommate both saw Zimmerman "straddling the body, basically a foot on both sides of Trayvon's body, and *his hands pressed on his back."*
Advertise | AdChoices

Cutcher added that Zimmerman told her and her roommate to call the police.
"Zimmerman never turned him over or tried to help him or CPR or anything," Cutcher said.




Zimmerman's lawyer, when shown part of the interview being aired Sunday night on Dateline, emphasized that his client would be claiming self-defense.
"I think there were efforts made to render aid to Trayvon," Craig Sonner told NBC's TODAY show.


U.S. News - Witness: Zimmerman 'never ... tried to help' Trayvon Martin




The act of *pressing down* with both hands on Martin's back, while he lay face down on the ground with a gunshot wound to his chest, would;
                                                                                                                                                                               (a) _restrict_ Martin's ability to breath freely, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                (b) _severely limit_ the already weakened heart's normal function, causing Martin to haemorrhage rapidly, *ensuring death.*


*Another observation;*

With Martin on top of Zimmerman, a gunshot wound to Martin's upper chest at very close range would cause blood from the entry wound to *leak downward towards Zimmerman.*

No such leakage was reported as evident on Zimmerman's clothing, chest, face or hands, which were proximal and below the area of the wound, as reported.

Was Zimmerman standing upright when the gun was fired at close range to avoid the blood flow?

Another question someone will have to answer.

----------


## ENT

* BANG!..... "You got me!" * 

According to the police, these were Trayvon Martin's last words

*Imagine.* You're in a life or death struggle with someone you are desperately trying to kill with your bare hands.  You have spent the last sixty seconds pummeling this person with your fists and bashing his head on the pavement. You notice he has a gun.  You smile your evil, golden-toothed smile and say, "You are going to die tonight."  The struggle continues, but this 250-lb. full grown, 28-year old man you have been grappling with for the last minute or so with your lanky, 17-year old, 160-lb. body, beating him with your fists, bashing his head over and over again, this intended murder victim you randomly chose to satisfy your mad, senseless, mindless, hatred of all White people, reaches into his holster, withdraws his 9mm and busts a cap in your chest.  Right in the pump.

You look at the blood gushing from your chest wound, doing your best to keep any of it from splashing all over the person who just shot you.  You make eye contact.

"You got me," you say, as you fall backwards.  Dead.


Continue reading on Examiner.com Bang! 'You got me!' Are they kidding? Trayvon's last words were 'You got me'? -     
 Baltimore liberal | Examiner.com Bang! 'You got me!' Are they kidding? Trayvon's last words were 'You got me'? - Baltimore liberal | Examiner.com

Then you have this:

Trayvon Martin Case: Leaked police report raises more questions than it answers.

5. According to Zimmerman, Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police. Trayvon then said, "Well, you do now" or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose, according to the account he gave police. That's not what Trayvon's girlfriend, who was on the cellphone with him at the time, remembers hearing.  She says she heard Trayvon ask Zimmerman, "Why are you following me," and Zimmerman responding, "What are you doing here?" She heard sounds of a scuffle and the phone went dead.  Recall that the fact Trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend has been verified by phone records. * Why the disparity in accounts?* _ How did Zimmerman answer to this disparity?  Was he asked?_


8. When the cops arrived on the scene, they took the gun and cuffed Zimmerman. They put him in the back of a police cruiser. The responding officer wrote, "At no time did I question Zimmerman about the incident."  Why not?  Would that not be the job of an officer arriving at the scene of a shooting with the shooter in custody?  Why does the "Partial Report Only" have a charge of "Homicide, Negligent Manslaughter, Unnecessary Killing to Prevent Unlawful Act" on it when no charges were filed? How did they know Trayvon was killed "to prevent an unlawful act"?

Continue reading on Examiner.com Trayvon Martin Case: Leaked police report raises more questions than it answers. - Baltimore liberal | Examiner.com Trayvon Martin Case: Leaked police report raises more questions than it answers. - Baltimore liberal | Examiner.com


*It doesn't look too good for Zimmerman.*



*Prosecutors even have Zimmerman’s confession that he intended to kill Martin.*  The only way that Zimmerman should be able to escape prison time, or perhaps worse, is if he can prove that this was a justifiable homicide.  However, as detailed below, there are a number of problems with Zimmerman’s self-defense claim.

Continue reading on Examiner.com Three problems with George Zimmerman’s self-defense claims - National Political Buzz | Examiner.com Three problems with George Zimmerman

----------


## guyinthailand

Massad Ayoob on the Martin killing (probably written on or around March 23, 2012)
Massad Ayoob » Blog Archive » GEORGE ZIMMERMAN AND TRAYVON MARTIN: WHAT WE DON

*GEORGE ZIMMERMAN AND TRAYVON MARTIN: WHAT WE DON’T KNOW*

_"The death almost a  month ago of 17-year old Trayvon Martin at the hands of appointed  neighborhood watch leader George Zimmerman has become a cause célèbre that  has even drawn the notice of our President, who notes that if he had a  son he would probably look like Trayvon.  I’m seeing some defending  Zimmerman, and most demanding his head on a platter, and a whole lot of  people who don’t understand how the justice system is geared to approach  these things.

"As I’ve said earlier in this blog, in answer to reader query, we don’t know enough about what happened to rush to judgment yet, whether  that judgment is justified self-defense, murder, or manslaughter.  The  police have made it clear that there is evidence that has not yet been  made public, and may not be put forth until the Grand Jury examines the  case next month.  

"Some issues:_ _
The autopsy results, including toxicology screen,  have not yet been released. If it turns out that the young man who died  was fueled by drugs known to cause violent behavior, could that change  our perceptions? That knowledge is not yet in our hands. (Reportedly,  Zimmerman was not tested, and police indicate that he showed no signs of  drug or alcohol impairment.) 

"My advice to YOU if YOU’RE ever involved  in a shooting: request to be taken to a hospital to have a blood sample  and toxicology screen taken. A “negative for everything” result will  prevent false allegations later that you were drunk or drugged-up when  you pulled the trigger._ _

"The death weapon was a Kel-Tec PF9 semiautomatic  9mm pistol. It has been reported that the gun was recovered with a full  magazine and that only the chambered round had been fired. This is a  condition we associate with something preventing the gun from cycling a  fresh round from the magazine into the chamber after the shot was  discharged. One thing that can cause that is another man’s hand wrapped  around the pistol, retarding its slide mechanism.  

"This would indicate,  as could certain gunshot residue patterns or cuts in certain places if  found on Trayvon Martin’s hand(s), that a struggle for a gun was taking  place when the fatal shot was fired. This would clearly change the shape  of the case. But – WE DON’T KNOW YET._ _

"Both men, according to initial reports, were  “squeaky clean” in terms of their background. We now know, meh, not so  much.  There were allegations of domestic abuse  against Zimmerman, and a conviction for resisting arrest, in his past.  Young Mr. Martin was in the complex in the first place so his dad could  straighten him out after being kicked out of school for a week…for what,  we don’t know._ _
 
"Pundits who don’t all seem to understand  the concept are tying this shooting in to Florida’s Stand Your Ground  law much more than they should. There is conflicting evidence/testimony  as to whether Martin approached Zimmerman or vice versa in the  penultimate moments before the physical fight that led to the fatal  shot.  There is, in short, not yet enough information for any of us  outside the investigation to formulate a solid opinion._ _

"Update: Turns out that the Trayvon Martin Facebook  page mentioned here last night was the wrong Trayvon Martin; that has  been deleted with my apologies, and thanks to those who flagged me to  the error.  Also, HuffPost reports that Trayvon had been suspended for  chronic truancy, but another source notes that his school’s posted rules  do not prescribe that length of suspension for that minor an offense.  Meanwhile, the college George Zimmerman had been attending has suspended  HIM, due to the current controversy._ _

"My advice? Let’s all “stand our ground,” not  participate in the rush to judgment, and wait for the facts and the  evidence to become available to us 300 million jurors in the Court of  Public Opinion."_

----------


## guyinthailand

> A woman who says she and her roommate witnessed the final moments of Trayvon Martin's life told Dateline NBC that George Zimmerman had *"his hands pressed on his back"* and "never turned him over or tried to help him."
> 
> Zimmerman's lawyer, when shown part of the interview being aired Sunday night on Dateline, emphasized that his client would be claiming self-defense.
> "I think there were efforts made to render aid to Trayvon," Craig Sonner told NBC's TODAY show.
> 
> The act of *pressing down* with both hands on Martin's back, while he lay face down on the ground with a gunshot wound to his chest, would;
>                                                                                                                                                                                (a) _restrict_ Martin's ability to breath freely, and  
>                                                                                                                                                                                 (b) _severely limit_ the already weakened heart's normal function, causing Martin to haemorrhage rapidly, *ensuring death.*


If Zimmerman can prove he (zimmerman) was fighting for his own life then he doesn't have a duty to "help" Martin.  Everything Zimmerman allegedly did in the above accounting could be shown to be justified.  The 'adrenaline dump' of a violent encounter is something most of us have never experienced, but it can cause distortions of time, perception and strength.

We shall see.

----------


## S Landreth

Funeral director: Trayvon Martins body showed no signs of scuffle

The funeral director who handled the body of Trayvon Martin in preparation for his burial has said that the young man showed no signs of the physical struggle alleged by George Zimmerman, who claims he shot the teenager in self defense. In an interview with CBS News, Florida funeral director Richard Kurtz said that Martin showed none of the signs normally associated with a fight.

In dressing the body, he said, we could see no physical signs that there had been a scuffle or there had been a fight. You know, on the hands, I didnt see any knuckles bruised, and that is something we would have covered up if it had been there.

While Kurtz is careful to point out that he is not a medical examiner, Trayvon Martins body, he said, looked perfectly normal to me, except for the gunshot wound that ended his life.

The funeral directors claims would appear to back up video evidence that came to light on Thursday of Zimmerman appearing unscathed less than an hour after Martins death, in spite of his claim that Martin broke his nose and bashed his head into a concrete sidewalk.

Link: Funeral director: Trayvon Martins body showed no signs of scuffle | The Raw Story

Video of funeral director Richard Kurtz: Funeral director on Trayvon Martin's lack of injuries - CBS News Video

----------


## attaboy

> Plenty of racial tension in the US still, ain't there?
> 
> I'm  not sure about that.  There is plenty of racial tension when it is inflamed and intensified by irresponsible media and camp followers who profit like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton as well as those who throw bottles from the safety of the sidelines like Spike Lee and Roseanne Barr.
> 
> I look askance at this 'stand your ground' law in Florida. It is not to do with a persons right to defend himself- which is a given. It is because there is seemingly no thought given to the concept of 'reasonable force' or reciprocity.
> 
> Simplistic example- black guy turns around to white dude, and says "yo cracka, I'm gonna rape your momma."
> White dude turns around to rearrange his dentures, rightfully so.
> Black guy pulls his piece, and shoots him through the heart, stone dead.
> ...


I don't think punching someone for making an outburst is use of reasonable force.  :Smile:    If that were the case in society then there would be justification for the aged and the disabled to carry an equalizer to secure their safety.   :Smile:   I see your point though. Provoking someone and then killing them because the provoker felt their life was in danger is neither civil or just. It's reckless. It takes barroom bravado and gamesmanship to an all new level of intricacy and sensitivity. 


The Florida stand-your-ground law does sound a bit wild west. Six years in existence without a sufficient number of stupid people abusing the law and thus causing it to be changed is surprising.  It gives me faith that overall people aren't the complete idiots and complete fkups I regard them to be

From wiki Florida statute:

*776.041 Use of force by aggressor.* The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
 (1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
 (2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
 (a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that  he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that  he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger  other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great  bodily harm to the assailant; or(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with  the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she  desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant  continues or resumes the use of force.

----------


## Lancelot

The over whelming majority of of black murder victims- are killed by other blacks...

"Almost one half of the nation's murder victims that year were black and a majority of them were between the ages of 17 and 29. Black people accounted for 13% of the total U.S. population in 2005. Yet they were the victims of 49% of all the nation's murders. And 93% of black murder victims were killed by other black people, according to the same report"

Juan Williams: The Trayvon Martin Tragedies - WSJ.com

----------


## attaboy

> The 'black mate' that spoke up on his behalf, well I'll reserve judgement.  Zimmerman has already hired a high profile trial attorney and legal defence specialist- even though he has yet to be charged with anything,


  I have seen 3 different attorneys representing the Martin family over a period of 2 days. I wonder which attorney chose the photograph from the family album of a smiling 13 year old Trayvon who was 17 at the time of his death. 


Why didn't they chose the family pic of a 6'3" Trayvon on the far right?


The photo probably doesn't represent the best interests of their clients.





> If playing up the racial angle makes blacks in Florida feel some sort of solidarity from the community at large, not to mention the president, and keeps the issue from boiling over into something like the riots we saw in Florida in 1980 after white and Hispanic cops beat an innocent black man to death, it will be worth it;


  I can understand if youre saying blacks and people in general need to feel some sort of acknowledgement from the community and from the government that this is indeed a tragedy, but making it a racial issue in the manner done by the media and members of the Congressional Black Caucus has not been helpful.  It has inflamed passions, encouraged ignorance and created contention.  What is needed is a leveled-headed search for the truth while acknowledging the parents pain. 



  Irresponsible and purposely inflammatory NBC News edited audio segment aired on NBC national news report:



> Zimmerman: This guy looks like hes up to no good. He looks black.


 The full version, though, unfolds like this:



> Zimmerman: This guy looks like hes up to no good,  or hes on drugs or something. Its raining and hes just walking  around, looking about.
> 
>  911 operator: Okay. And this guy, is he white black or Hispanic?
> 
>  Zimmerman: He looks black.



News update March 28, 2012:




> The special prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin case said she hopes to make a decision without a grand jury about whether to arrest the man who killed the unarmed black 17-year-old in Sanford, according to a Florida newspaper.
> 
>   Angela Corey, the state attorney in Duval, Clay and Nassau counties, took over the case Thursday when Gov. Rick Scott named her special prosecutor following growing protests and complaints by civil rights leaders that local authorities had botched the investigation.
> 
>   "I always lean towards moving forward without needing the grand jury in a case like this," the Miami Herald quoted her as saying. "I foresee us being able to make a decision and move on it on our own."


A community doesnt want to overuse the grand jury option but I think it would be appropriate in this case.  The family cannot trust the prosecutors office to act alone.

----------


## attaboy

MSNBC News contributor Toure Neblett or Touré says he believes Zimmermann is guilty of murder.  


> MORGAN: Do you believe that George Zimmerman murdered Trayvon Martin?
> 
>   TOURE: Yes.
> 
>   MORGAN: So you've already tried him? You've convicted him?
> 
>   TOURE: You asked me what I think.


Toure also tweeted on his account that Zimmermaning me means youre killing me. I dont think a serious journalist publicly jokes about a murder case while reporting on the case. 



More important Touré is saying Zimmerman can be heard saying "fucking coons"  during the 911 call.


See what you think:

----------


## OhOh

George Zimmerman Trayvon Al Sharpton: Rev. Al Sharpton will escalate efforts if George Zimmerman isn't arrested in Trayvon's death. - Orlando Sentinel

_"If George Zimmerman is not arrested in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin soon, the Rev. Al Sharpton will call for an escalation in peaceful civil disobedience and economic sanctions.

Sharpton would not say the efforts would be taken against the city of Sanford specifically, but he has been critical of the police department's handling of the case.

Saturday's scheduled 11 a.m. march from Crooms Academy of Information Technology to the Sanford Police Department headquarters was organized by National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. Coordinators said people will be bused in from other states to participate.

The civil rights activist and syndicated television show host said he will elaborate on this plan Saturday.

"I will speak about how the National Action Network will move to the next level if Zimmerman isn't arrested," said Sharpton, who founded the Network. He added that it was the Martin family and lawyers who first asked him to get involved and nationalize this story.

The Rev. Jesse Jackson is also expected to participate in the event.

The case has ignited ire and debate across the nation, galvanizing thousands of Trayvon supporters to the streets and social media, donning hoodies and toting Skittles.

Sanford police this week released a video of a handcuffed George Zimmerman apparently showing no visible signs of physical injury after he claimed that he shot the 17-year-old Miami teenager in self-defense.

Zimmerman's family have come to his defense on national news networks, releasing details about his version of what happened the night of Feb. 26 when police found the teen face down in wet grass.

Sharpton said the recent revelations only underscores the need for an immediate arrest and trial.

"Whether he [Zimmerman] had a swollen or broken nose, neither one means he had to take a 9mm and kill someone," he said. "It's not about saying Zimmerman is innocent or guilty, this is about whether there was probable cause to arrest him."

He criticized the way authorities have released information about the case and said they are setting a harmful precedent, he said.

Sanford city officials announced several road closures in anticipation of the march including 13th street, from U.S. Highway 17-92 to Lake Avenue; as well as, Persimmon Street from McCracken Road to 13th.

The demonstration is expected to end at 2 p.m., organizers said."_

----------


## ENT

Reported 911 Calls.

Several audios listed at this site.
Trayvon Martin 911 Calls [Audio] | Axiom Amnesia


*Zimmerman's call to 911.*(audio)
audio/http://www.axiomamnesia.com/Audio/George-Zimmerman-Treyvon-Martin-911-Call.mp3


*Recorded screams for help as neighbour calls 911*(audio)
http://www.axiomamnesia.com/Audio/Tr...hots-Heard.mp3

----------


## ENT

On the evening of February 26, 2012, George Zimmerman went out to patrol the gated neighborhood in his vehicle as he did every night because of several break-ins had been reported in recent weeks. While out patrolling his neighborhood, Zimmerman saw a young black teenager with a hood over his head so he started to follow him. Zimmerman called the police emergency dispatcher to report a suspicious person.

Zimmerman *violated the Neighborhood Watch manual* which states, “It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers. And they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles.”


The Justice Department released a statement saying, “The department will conduct a thorough and independent review of all of the evidence and take appropriate action and the conclusion of the investigation. The government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a person *acted intentionally and with the specific intent to do something which the law forbids.* Negligence, recklessness, mistakes and accidents are not prosecutable under the federal criminal civil rights laws.”

Trayvon Martin 911 Call From Neighbors and Zimmerman (Audio) | Z6Mag

----------


## Boon Mee

NBC News Charged With Misleading Editing in Zimmerman 911 Call.

    In the NBC segment, Zimmerman says: This guy looks like hes up to no good. He looks black.

    The full version, though, unfolds like this:

    Zimmerman: This guy looks like hes up to no good, or hes on drugs or something. Its raining and hes just walking around, looking about.

    911 operator: Okay. And this guy, is he white black or Hispanic?

    Zimmerman: He looks black.

Its as if theyre pushing a predetermined narrative regardless of the evidence or something.

NBC News Accused of Editing 911 Call in Trayvon Martin Controversy (Video) - The Hollywood Reporter

----------


## ENT

This particular link claims to gives the full unedited audio of Zimmerman's initial 911 call.
So far, I have no reason to discredit it.
It's worth listening to, as are all the others in the link I posted (post #427) earlier.

Trayvon Martin 911 Calls [Audio] | Axiom Amnesia

----------


## guyinthailand

I clicked on your link and do not seem to be able to see a link that I can click which will actually play the tape.  Can you provide a link which will DIRECTLY take one to the audio?

all is see is a written version where it is ALLEGED  Zimmerman says 'coon'. It is only written here, you can't hear it.   I say alleged because one of the other links above shows the sound engineers trying to 'extract' the word 'coon' and they cannot definitively do that.

Another reason to discredit the llink you provide is it shows the childhood photos of Martin.  What a bunch of B.S. to continue showing innocent looking childhood photos of this guy.  Any site which continues to do this are idiots and not to be trusted until proven otherwise.

----------


## Boon Mee

This is heavy!

Florida protesters today compared Trayvon Martin to Jesus Christ.



Wow!  JC with burgler's tools.   :rofl: 

    Leaders from the NAACP and other groups led a massive crowd through the streets of Sanford, Florida, today to demand the arrest of George Zimmermanand deny reports of an economic boycott, the Orlando Sentinel reports. We want an arrest, shot in the chest, chanted the crowd, which MSNBC estimated in the thousands. They stopped outside police headquarters for speeches and a benediction comparing Trayvon Martins death to that of Jesus Christ.

    Civil rights luminaries like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and NAACP President Benjamin Jealous were in attendance.

Sanford March Compares Trayvon to Jesus Christ - Zimmerman ordered to take anger management after brush with law

----------


## ENT

^^
Link;                                                                                                                                 http://www.axiomamnesia.com/Audio/Ge...n-911-Call.mp3

I've typed it below see if it works.
If not go to the above link and you'll see a link on the main page, just down the lead column. _I_ can get through to the link.
Index of /Audio

----------


## ENT

^^The kid is being well used and abused. Sick, very sick.

----------


## koman

> ^The kid is being well used and abused. Sick, very sick.


And Zimmerman is being touted as a stereotypical racist bigot and vigilante, when there is not the slightest evidence or history of anything like that. (at least not that we have heard about so far)  

Are people incapable of understanding that this whole thing may (likely was) a pretty ordinary minor event that for some reason spiralled out of control.....nothing more.

It's really too bad that these so called journalists at NBC and other networks can't be held accountable for the damage they do with their carefully edited and highly biased "news".......not to mention elected officials and so called celebs....who go around shooting their mouths off whithout knowing what the hell they are talking about.  

It's good to see that most ordinary people, black and white are just staying home, minding their own business and waiting for things to take their course....which is as it should be.....but I suppose the Senators, activists and celebs need to keep their names and faces in the supermarket tabloids no matter what it takes.

----------


## Cujo

Economic boycott of what?

----------


## BaitongBoy

Back in the sixties, the Blacks refused to ride the buses, for example, and the transportation system went broke, or nearly so, until they backed down and let them sit at the front of the bus...Rosa Parks started it all...

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> ^The kid is being well used and abused. Sick, very sick.
> 
> 
> And Zimmerman is being touted as a stereotypical racist bigot and vigilante
> 
> Are people incapable of understanding that this whole thing may (likely was) a pretty ordinary minor event that for some reason spiralled out of control.....nothing more.


People are making political and cultural capital out of him too.

It stared off ordinary enough, but .........................

----------


## guyinthailand

I can SEEM to hear Zimmerman saying 'f*#king coons' on one of those links Ent provided a few posts above, though it is not clear.  If he did say this, it sure won't help his defense.  However, it by itself won't prove lethal force wasn't necessary.

We shall see.

----------


## sabang

> The photo probably doesn't represent the best interests of their clients.


You've got it- the same game is being played by both sides, in a court of public opinion rather than law.

The racial question can probably be summarised in one sentence- If Trayvon Martin was a white kid walking back home from 711, would he now be dead?

----------


## sabang

> Just your average boy next door, eh?
> __________________


Yes, actually- just another internet tough guy. The reality is, he was no 'hoodie' or gangbanga, just an average suburban kid living a pretty average suburban life.

----------


## Boon Mee

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> Just your average boy next door, eh?
> __________________
> 
> 
> Yes, actually- just another internet tough guy. The reality is, he was no 'hoodie' or gangbanga, just an average suburban kid living a pretty average suburban life.


Yes indeed.  Just an average boy suspended from school for drugs walking around with burglar's tools living an average suburban life...

----------


## sabang

> walking around with burglar's tools


First I've heard of that?

----------


## Boon Mee

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> walking around with burglar's tools
> 
> 
> First I've heard of that?


_Trayvon Martin_ marchers to Sanford, Fla., police: 'We want an arrest. Shot in the chest'
msnbc.com‎ - 13 hours ago
However, there was no indication that _Trayvon Martin_ was a rapist. *......* when he was filling his school bag with women's gold jewelry and _burglary tools_, *...*http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...lary-tool.htmlhttp://www.opposingviews.com/i/socie...-burglary-tool

----------


## S Landreth

Myth and reality of stand your ground

MORE INFORMATION

Heres a breakdown by calendar year and whether the person acting in self-defense was a civilian or a law enforcement officer:

Justifiable homicide by civilian,	Justifiable homicide by police,	Total
2000	12,	20,	32
2001	12,	21,	33
2002	12,	23,	35
2003	16,	16,	32
2004	8,	23,	31
2005	18,	25,	43
2006	12,	21,	33
2007	42,	60,	102
2008	41,	52,	93
2009	45,	60,	105
2010	40,	56,	96
First half of 2011	16,	33	49

Source: Florida Department of Law Enforcement data


Since Florida passed the stand your ground law in 2005, deaths due to self-defense have jumped over 250 percent.

--State Sen. Christopher Smith, D-Fort Lauderdale

The fatal shooting of unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin by a neighborhood watch volunteer in Sanford, Fla., has reopened debate about the states stand your ground law.

One of the arguments weve heard from lawmakers wanting to change the 2005 law is that deaths due to self-defense are up dramatically since stand your ground passed. The law  approved overwhelmingly by the Legislature and signed by Gov. Jeb Bush in 2005  allows people to use deadly force when they believe their life is at risk.

Sen. Chris Smith, a Democrat who represents parts of Broward and Palm Beach counties, wants to rewrite the law because he fears its protections are too broad. Smith wants to change the law so that it only applies in cases that take place in a home, car or at work. He also wants to prohibit the use of stand your ground in cases where the shooter has provoked a confrontation, Smith said in a March 21 press release sent by the Senate Democratic office.

According to the press release, Smith noted that since the laws passage, deaths due to self defense have jumped over 250 percent.

Thats a significant increase worth checking out.

As we at PolitiFact do in cases like this, well first check the numbers and then check to see if stand your ground is to blame as Smith suggests.

THE STATISTIC

The stand your ground statute states that a person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

We contacted the Florida Department of Law Enforcement directly for data on justifiable homicides from 2000-10 and through the first half of 2011.

FDLE uses this definition of justifiable homicides when collecting data for the FBIs Uniform Crime Reporting: The killing of the perpetrator of a serious criminal offense either by a law enforcement officer in the line of duty or by a private citizen, during the commission of a serious criminal offense.

FDLEs manual explains that the label is based on an investigating officers findings  not on the actions by a prosecutor or court.

The FBIs UCR handbook explains that a storekeeper shooting a gunman attempting a robbery is a justifiable homicide. But if two men playing cards get into an argument in which the first man attacked the second with a broken bottle and the second man shot his attacker claiming self-defense, that should not be reported as justifiable homicide.

FDLEs data is based on information reported by police departments  that reporting is voluntary but nearly all the agencies comply, FDLE spokesman Keith Kameg said. From 2000-04  the five full years before stand your ground took effect  law enforcement agencies in Florida reported an average of 12 justifiable homicides a year committed by civilians. From 2006-10  the first five full years after stand your ground became law  law enforcement agencies reported an average of 36 justifiable homicides committed by civilians. Average to average, the number of justifiable homicides by civilians is now three times higher than it was in the years before 2005. Thats an increase of 200 percent. (We excluded 2005 from this calculation because the law went into effect part way through the year.)

So Smith is a little high in his estimate using FDLE data. Next, we wondered whether the 2005 law is the reason justifiable homicides among civilians are up.

Experts differed. Gary Kleck, a professor of criminology at Florida State University, has researched how the FBI and police departments define justifiable homicide.

Criminologists are suspicious of sharp swings in a short time frame, he said.

I dont believe anything triples.Increases that sharp are probably due to some artificial cause like a shift in how people are defining events, Kleck said. Bill Eddins, state attorney in Floridas 1st Circuit and president of the Florida Prosecuting Attorneys Association, said he couldnt conclude if there is a correlation between the stand your ground law and the increase in justifiable homicides.

Although the overall crime rate has trended downward, the random violence seems to be increasing to me, Eddins said.

To determine the effect of the stand your ground law would require examining how many times the statute was used, the result of the case and whether or not the stand your ground statute contributed to that resolution, he said.

There is no real measurement set up to do that at this point. I cannot reach the conclusion that there is a direct correlation in the increases of justifiable homicide as a result of stand your ground law. I know other people are saying you can, but I cant reach it.

Nancy Daniels, a public defender in the 2nd Circuit and president of the Florida Public Defender Association, said that she thinks there is a clear correlation between the stand your ground law and the increase in justifiable homicide cases.

The types of incidents involved in stand your ground cases have always been with us, but some now are found to be justifiable, she said in an email. And who knows how many people have been emboldened to think violence is justified just because of the new law?

OUR RULING

Smith said that since stand your ground passed in 2005, deaths due to self-defense have jumped over 250 percent. When we calculated the average for five years before the law passed and five years after it passed, we found an increase of 200 percent. Thats short of Smiths claim, though the numbers largely support the idea that self-defense deaths have increased since 2005. As for whether stand your ground is the reason self-defense deaths are up, experts either disagree or say its difficult to determine without closer examination.

We rate this statement Half True.


Read more here: Myth and reality of &#x2018;stand your ground&#x2019; - Opinion - MiamiHerald.com

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## sabang

Well, well- an interesting new 'racial' angle:-

_An African-American political activist has described the US establishment as “imperialistic, racist, capitalistic and oriented towards exploitation and genocide of people that they’ve conquered,” amid the controversy over the recent murder of a black teenager.

Dr. Short, let’s look at little bit closer at the Trayvon [Martin] case. Why has very little been reported about Zimmerman’s father, Robert Zimmerman, who is an influential retired Jewish magistrate judge in Florida? Do you think that the fact that his father is part of the legal system has anything to do with Zimmerman not being arrested? 

Short: I think that that has to play some role in as much as he’s had charges in the past dismissed against him. And I’m curious as to why the phone records for Mr. Zimmerman’s phone haven’t been made public? I’m wondering if he called his father and his father called [Florida State Attorney] Norman Wolfinger?_ 
PressTV - ?US ideology driven by exploitation, massacre of populations?


Interesting that I have not seen this reported, at all, until now. Why not? His father being Jewish is one thing (I have no idea if Zimmerman is or not), but also a retired Judge, and living in Florida? That should bring a few more conspiracy theories out of the closet.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  But really, the fact his Mum was from Peru has been widely reported, and the fact he is (half) Hispanic also. This omission does seem somewhat convenient. Perhaps we need to see those phone records- Martins phone records have been released, but not Zimmermans. Why not?.

The rest of the article is an anti-Anglo rant- apparently you Amerkins followed the fine genocidal example set by the Brits.  :Smile:

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## sabang

Turns out Dad has spoken out on behalf of his son. To Fox.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

_In an attempt to mitigate mounting evidence against his son in the murder case of Trayvon Martin, Robert Zimmerman wrote to the Orlando Sentinel last week, claiming George isn’t a racist and couldn’t possibly be, given his half-Peruvian heritage. The myopic premise of that argument aside, Zimmerman has since provided an interview to a Fox News affiliate news station in Orlando in which he blames President Barack Obama and other black leaders for inciting “hatred” by expressing concerns over the shooting of the teen.
“There is so much hate,” he said, lamenting media portrayals of his son. “I don’t feel good. I guess people would rather my son be beaten to death. I never foresaw so much hate coming from the president, the Congressional Black Caucus, the NAACP…every organization imaginable is trying to gain notoriety or profit from this. I’ve never been involved in hate,” he says. “George hasn’t. It is really is unbelievable…

... Absent concrete evidence that young Trayvon Martin attacked George Zimmerman without cause, his claim decrying “self-defense” has unraveled, and continues to appear more fallacious as each day passes and new details emerge.
George Zimmerman’s father has chosen to spin a tale he knows will garner dog whistle support from far-right conservatives, prone to be both anti-black, anti-Obama and indifferent to the death of any young black male._
Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman father speaks on his behalf. : ThyBlackMan.com

I don't think that was wise.

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## guyinthailand

unlikely he said 'coons'.  As article below points out, 'coons' is outdated vernacular.

'goons', or 'crooks' a more likely possibility.

this article deconstructs some of the misinformation about the incident.

the article below is highly recommended.

Misconceptions in the Trayvon Martin Case

*Misconceptions in the Trayvon Martin Case*

                     by Dan Linehan on March 28, 2012
                     in Editorial


 Despite the Trayvon Martin shooting being more than a month passed,  misinformation and fallacious arguments continue to appear with great  frequency.
 Let’s take a closer look at some of the top misconceptions regarding the Trayvon Martin case.*Trayvon was a normal, well-adjusted teenager.*Seventeen-year-olds don’t normally have gold teeth, multiple tattoos, multiple school suspensions, friends publicly asking them for “plant” on their Facebooks, issues with graffiti, school problems with “burglary tools,” and so on.

Trayvon might not have been an out-and-out criminal, but he certainly wasn’t an average teen either.
What we do see is an escalating pattern of illegal behavior.
Multiple tattoos may be regarded by some as nothing beyond popular fashion, but without parental consent minors cannot get them.
Trayvon seems to have had several when he was only sixteen.  Did he  lie about his age or did his parents go with him when he got them?
In the last 48 hours, we’ve found out that Martin’s 10-day suspension  (which was in effect at the time of his shooting) wasn’t the only time  he was suspended recently.
In a few short months during his junior year in high school, Trayvon  was suspended on three separate occasions, including one time when he  was caught with a “burglary tool” and a bunch of jewelry that didn’t  belong to him.The Miami Herald claims that in October, he was caught  with a ‘burglary tool’ – a flathead screwdriver – and 12 pieces of  women’s jewellery. Martin insisted that they did not belong to him.
 Earlier, he had been suspended for skipping school and showing up  late to class. And most recently, in February, he was suspended again  when officials found a ‘marijuana pipe’ and an empty baggie with traces  of the drug.Certain media outlets are still spinning the story.
NPR titled yesterday’s article, “Trayvon Martin’s Life Looking Much Like Many Teens.”
From that piece:According to the Herald, Martin was suspended from school  three times in recent months, for incidents ranging from tardiness to  writing graffiti on school property to having a plastic bag with  marijuana residue in his backpack. He had never been arrested.*Conveniently no mention of the jewelry or the screwdriver on NPR.**Discussing someone’s character is a smear campaign.*Trayvon’s character matters deeply in this case.
Since this shooting has become an extremely polarizing national news  item, everyone involved requires scrutiny.  That especially holds true  for Trayvon, since his actions on the night of the shooting are truly at  the heart of all of this.

We have to ask ourselves, “Was Trayvon the sort of person who would  viciously attack and beat Zimmerman, as Zimmerman claims?”  To answer  that question, we have to know as much as we can about Trayvon and how  he conducted himself.
The media has spent an inordinate amount of time looking into  Zimmerman’s background.  For a long while the same scrutiny was not  applied to Martin.  That has changed now somewhat.  As more facts are  coming out about who Martin was, the image many people had of him turned  out to be very inaccurate.
Trayvon no longer seems to be the innocent victim the media initially portrayed him as.
This is not a smear campaign.  It’s not blaming the victim. * In fact,  Martin wasn’t the victim if he unilaterally assaulted and viciously  beat Zimmerman*, as every piece of evidence currently seems to suggest.   More on that later.*George Zimmerman is racist.*There is no evidence to suggest that George Zimmerman is racist and quite a lot of evidence against it.
*Zimmerman and his wife were in the big brother / big sister program  and mentored two black children.*  That doesn’t sound like the actions of  a racist to me.

His friends and family have been extremely outspoken about Zimmerman  not being racist from the start.  Apparently, Zimmerman grew up in a  multi-cultural family and has always been anything but discriminatory.
Joe Oliver, a long-time friend of Zimmerman’s, has been conducting interviews all this week about the topic as well.

*George Zimmerman called Martin a “coon.”*This claim has been widely debunked.
Audio experts have attested that he said the word “punks” on the call.WFTV had an audio expert listen to the call, and determined that the word said was “punks.”Others think he may have said “crooks.”  Several have mentioned that  he could have even said “goons.”  I’ve never heard of that expression,  but apparently “goons” is actually part of the vernacular in Florida.
In any case, Zimmerman was highly unlikely to have said “coons” while  on the line with 911.  To begin with, “coons” is a fairly obscure,  outdated word.  Very few people under the age of sixty would use that  term as a racial slur, there are half-a-dozen other offensive words that  are much more commonly used.
Zimmerman has an extensive background in criminal justice.  He  probably wasn’t about to throw it away by littering his 911 calls with  racist rhetoric.  There is no record of him using any racial slurs like  this on any previous 911 call.
It seems highly unlikely he would start doing so all of the sudden, forty-some calls in.*George Zimmerman was chasing Trayvon.*George Zimmerman wasn’t “chasing” Trayvon.  Chasing someone implies  you are trying to catch up to them — there’s no evidence that was  Zimmerman’s intention.
Zimmerman was attempting to maintain visual contact.  That is what he  was supposed to do for his Neighborhood Watch, and that is what was  being asked of him by the 911 dispatcher at the time.
This is supported by the 911 transcript.Zimmerman: No you go in straight through the entrance and  then you make a left…uh you go straight in, don’t turn, and make a  left. Shit he’s running.
 Dispatcher: He’s running? Which way is he running?
 Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.
 Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he’s heading towards?The dispatcher was asking Zimmerman specific questions about where Martin was going, Zimmerman was answering as needed.
Every step of the way, Zimmerman complied with the 911 operator.
When he was asking for more information about the direction Martin  went, Zimmerman provided it.  When he said there was no need to pursue,  Zimmerman stopped immediately.Dispatcher: Are you following him?
 Zimmerman: Yeah
 Dispatcher: Ok, we don’t need you to do that.
 Zimmerman: Ok
 Dispatcher: Alright sir what is your name?
 Zimmerman: George…He ran.At this point, Zimmerman no longer has Trayvon within eyesight, and he’s no longer even attempting to look for him.*George Zimmerman should have stayed in his truck.*This is a baseless argument.
Zimmerman had no reason to think he should stay in his truck — he was  reporting someone suspicious in his neighborhood and wanted to maintain  visual contact with that person.  He drove after them for a few minutes  and the person ran away.
At this point, it makes perfect logical sense for Zimmerman to exit  the vehicle to see where the suspicious person went, because he had just  called them in to the police.  Otherwise, the police would get there  and Zimmerman would have no idea what direction to point them in.
If we listen to the 911 call it’s clear that Zimmerman was not  chasing Trayvon.  He was merely trying to see where he was going so he  could relay this information to the dispatcher.
This fact is actually crucial to the case.  Things would be different  had Zimmerman actually been in some sort of hot pursuit, chasing after  Martin, but he never was.  Zimmerman wasn’t ever close to Martin, until  Martin changed directions and confronted Zimmerman after the 911 call.*George Zimmerman started the fight.*There is absolutely no evidence of this.  It seems pretty clear that  Zimemrman’s goal was to report someone he didn’t recognize in his  community, not to pick a fight with them.
To believe that Zimmerman picked a fight with Martin, we first have  to ask ourselves why Zimmerman would want to start a fight that he would  almost certainly lose, against someone who was 10 years younger than  him, half a foot taller, and in excellent physical shape.
Take a look at this picture of Trayvon and decide for yourself whether you would instigate a physical confrontation with him.

If Zimmerman wanted to start a fight or harass some random teenager, why would he call 911 before doing so?
Calling in a suspicious person report does not make any sense if Zimmerman wanted to go out and start physical confrontations.
Had Zimmerman proceeded to attack Martin, the cops would have arrived  a few minutes later and Zimmerman would have been arrested for  assaulting a minor.  There would be no valid reason for him to do that  whatsoever.
The concept of Zimmerman initiating violence makes no sense in context with the rest of the evidence we have.*George Zimmerman was simply let go at the scene.*Zimmerman was not simply “released” at the scene by the Sanford police.
He was handcuffed and placed in the back of the squad car where he first received treatment for his injuries.

Police then questioned Zimmerman for *five hours* at police headquarters the night of February 26th.  All of that was without an attorney present.
A very risky move for Zimmerman, but he apparently felt he had nothing to hide.*Zimmerman just lost the fight.*There is a certain subset of people who continue to make derogatory statements about Zimmerman along the lines of:
- He’s a wimp who was mad because he lost a fist-fight and shot the kid afterward.
- He brought a gun to an otherwise fair fight.
- Getting beaten up doesn’t mean that you get to shoot the other guy afterward.
I would agree with all of those if they applied to this case in any way, but they don’t.
Zimmerman says he was unilaterally attacked by Martin.  He never  wanted to fight in the first place. It’s not as if he agreed to  something physical and then proceeded to shoot Martin at the end of it.
One minute he was on the phone with police, the next he was knocked down with one punch, and getting beaten incessantly.*George Zimmerman was bigger than Trayvon.*George Zimmerman weighed more than Trayvon.  That only matters when the extra weight in question is muscle.
By all accounts, Zimmerman was not in good shape.  He was out of breath on the 911 call after jogging for only a few seconds.
Trayvon had a six inch height advantage, as well as a ten year age advantage, and was generally much more fit overall.
*Update:* Surprise, the weight figures the media was pushing for Zimmerman were nowhere near accurate.
While he weighed 240 lbs. back in 2005, he has lost a considerable  amount of weight in the last seven years. Zimmerman is described by  friends as currently weighing only 170 lbs.
Zimmerman is currently 5’8 / 170 lbs.*George Zimmerman had no right to pursue Trayvon.*Zimmerman saw someone in his neighborhood who looked suspicious and  he had every right to follow-up with them and talk to them without being  assaulted.
In this case however, Zimmerman never even got the chance.  He never  got close enough to ask Martin anything before he lost visual contact,  then headed back towards his truck to meet police.*It was Trayvon’s voice screaming for help on the 911 call.*This is probably one of the most critical misconceptions of the case.   When the 911 tapes were released, nearly everyone assumed it was  Trayvon screaming for his life on the recording.  It was horrifying and  very emotional.
*But the evidence shows this terrified voice was actually Zimmerman’s,* not Trayvon’s.
The only witness to the assault  describes Zimmerman as being on the bottom in a “ground-and-pound”  position, screaming for help.  That witness told them, “I’m going to  call 911,” and ran inside to do so.
On the 911 recording we continue to hear Zimmerman’s screams for help.
There is a continuity there — between what the witness saw,  and what we hear on the tapes.  Zimmerman was screaming for help when  the witness first saw the fight, he was still pinned down and screaming  for help when the 911 call was recorded.
*Zimmerman was screaming for his life as Trayvon continued to beat  him,* even after a witness told them directly that he was calling 911.   This alone shows that Trayvon had no regard for any sort of fair fight.
Martin wasn’t pinning Zimmerman down and beating him for several  minutes because he “felt threatened.” * Martin was the aggressor, from  start to finish, not the victim*.*George Zimmerman is white.*For those who don’t already know, Zimmerman is hispanic.  Half-white on his Father’s side and half Peruvian.

This misconception is understandable, as Zimmerman was documented as being white in the original Sanford police report.*George Zimmerman disobeyed 911 orders.Zimmerman did not ever disobey 911 dispatcher orders*.  If you listen  to the tapes, the dispatcher says, “We don’t need you to [follow him.]”  And Zimmerman says, “Ok.”Dispatcher: Are you following him?
 Zimmerman: Yeah
 Dispatcher: Ok, we don’t need you to do that.
 Zimmerman: OkThe conversation continues, and it’s obvious from his tone of voice that Zimmerman is no longer actively pursuing Martin.
How exactly would Zimmerman have caught back up to Martin after the call, when he couldn’t keep up with him in the first place?*Trayvon was justified in punching Zimmerman.*The only way Trayvon would have been justified in punching Zimmerman  would have been if Zimmerman successfully chased Martin down until he  caught up with him.  Even then, it would have been questionable.
But that is not the scenario we are dealing with.  Martin initiated  the confrontation, and almost certainly didn’t feel threatened while he  was fighting Zimmerman.
Martin had him pinned to the ground and continued to beat him  incessantly while Zimmerman was screaming for help.  There is no  justification for that.*It has anything to do with hoodies.*For a few sentimental days, large groups of people were taking photos wearing hoodies to show solidarity with Trayvon Martin.
There’s nothing wrong with that per se, except that* this case has  nothing to do with hoodies*.  Trayvon was not shot because he was wearing  a hoodie or any other article of clothing.

*Trayvon was shot because he continued to viciously beat a man ten  years his senior, while that man was crying out desperately for help.  A  man who had done nothing to him except briefly follow him as part of  his Neighborhood Watch duties*.*George Zimmerman was remorseless after the shooting.*Multiple witnesses who arrived after the shooting saw Zimmerman  trying to stop Martin’s bleeding.  This alone signifies how much  Zimmerman didn’t want to shoot Martin.  He simply had no other choice  after being pinned down and beaten.
Friends report that Zimmerman cried for days after the shooting.  When you consider that Zimmerman was the victim of a violent crime he wanted no part of, this reaction makes sense.*George Zimmerman was a vigilante.*This is a misunderstanding of the word “vigilante.”
What Zimmerman was doing was absolutely routine, everyday,  neighborhood watch stuff.  Driving around and reporting anyone  suspicious that he didn’t recognize.  Being the “eyes and ears” of the  community.
*If anything, what Martin did to Zimmerman was vigilantism.*  Martin  assumed Zimmerman was up to no good when he saw him following him, and  took it upon himself to dish out his own brand of justice.*The Florida “Stand Your Ground” law applies.*As far as I can tell, it wouldn’t make any difference whether Florida had a “Stand Your Ground” law or not in this case.
Anywhere in America, if you are being pinned down and beaten in the  head, your life is in danger and you have a right to defend yourself  against bodily harm with deadly force.
*“Stand your Ground” doesn’t apply when you’re pinned to the ground and being beaten.**Trayvon was only standing his ground as well.*Trayvon had rights in this situation.  He had the right to confront  Zimmerman and ask why he was being followed.  He had the right to be  offended and upset about any racial profiling he perceived Zimmerman  engaging in.
And if he felt like Zimmerman was about to attack him for some  reason, he may have even had the right to initiate violence to defend  himself.
But Martin had no reason to feel threatened by Zimmerman when  Zimmerman never even came close to catching up to him, and was only  following from a distance.
And Martin certainly didn’t have the right to continue to beat  Zimmerman indefinitely, while Zimmerman desperately screamed and pleaded  for help.
There is simply no way that behavior can be justified by saying, “Trayvon felt threatened.”*George Zimmerman has no reason to be carrying a gun.*It should be obvious from this case that Zimmerman had _every_ reason to want to carry a gun.
When someone is willing to assault and beat you simply for  approaching them, and so many other people are willing to justify and  even rally behind their actions, it’s quite a dangerous society we live  in.*It’s about race.*I saved this for last because it’s the biggest misconception of them all.
*Very little of this case has to do with race.  Everything here is about violence and assault.*

George Zimmerman shot a black teenager.  That does not make him  racist, because that black teenager had decided to beat him to a pulp.
I’m fairly certain most gun owners who conceal/carry would shoot _anyone_ who was pinning them down and beating them mercilessly.  Race simply does not factor into that equation.
*If George Zimmerman had shot a white teenager who was viciously  attacking him, would anyone be saying he had racist motivations?*  It’s  highly doubtful.  The majority of people would say, “Of course he shot  him, he was being pinned down and being beaten in the head in his own  neighborhood.”
The only aspect of the case that truly relates to race is whether the  initial 911 call would have been made if Trayvon wasn’t black.
While we can’t answer that for certain, I believe the answer is yes.
George Zimmerman took his job as Neighborhood Watch very seriously,  he called in all sorts of stuff, I believe he called Trayvon in because  he didn’t recognize him, not because of his color.
There had been a massive string of burglaries in the area (pdf) in the preceding months.
Guess how most of the merchandise was recovered?  From reporting suspicious people in the neighborhood.
So this exact type of “suspicious activity” reporting was proven to  be effective only weeks earlier.  Of course Zimmerman is going to use  it.
Rpt Date: 2/7/2012 15:06 Reporter: B65567 Blake, James Clearance: 0 Open Narr. Type: S
Mod By: SANFORD\jhlake Mod Date: 2/7/2012 15:55 Related Case Number: 201250000751
 On 02/07/12 at approximately 1300 hours, I responded to area of 1540  Retreat view Cir in reference to a group of suspicious person(s).
 Sanford Dispatch advised that there were four males on bicycles in  the area, that one of them was possibly a suspect in this case.
 Upon arrival myself and Ofc. M. Hickley made contact with three black  males and one white male on bicycles in a cut through area of the  complex (a grass area were Retreat at Twin Lakes backs up to Colonial  Village Apts). The white male had on a white t-shirt and jeans (one  black male had on a black shirt and black beanie cap, the other black  male had on a red hat and red shorts and the last black male was wearing  a black shirt, black jacket and jean shorts and black shoes.)
 Ofc. L. Rivera then arrived on scene; while he and Ofc. Hickley were  checking the identifications of the subjects, I made contact with the  caller Arnold Arms and lain Beard. Arms and Beard both stated that the  black male wearing the black jacket, black shirt, jean shorts, and black  shoes was the same black male they saw in the area of 1540 Retreat View  Cir on 02/06/12. They also provided a sworn written statement advising  that Burgess was wearing the same cloths that he was wearing on  02I06f12.
 While Ofc. Rivera and Ofc. Hickley were trying to verify the identify Mme original gave a false name), I asked Ransburg if
I could look through his back pack that he was carrying. Ransburg gave  me permission to look through his back pack, to which I found two laptop  computers. One of the computers was an Apple Macbook Pro, I then asked  Ranshurg if the Apple computer belonged to him, to which he replied no.  It should be noted that with out any hesitation — told me that the Apple  laptop was his computer and that he had bought it last night.  l then  ran the serial number on the Apple computer (WQOZZRSPATM) through  FCIC/NCIC. The computer came hack stolen out of Sanford and came hack to  this case number. The other computer came back with negative results at  this time. If no one had been calling in suspicious people in the neighborhood, this mini-crime spree would never have been solved.
Twin Lakes is a small gated community, Zimmerman knew who lived there and who didn’t.  He didn’t recognize Trayvon.
That seems to be Zimmerman’s sole motive for calling Trayvon in,  nothing more.  He wanted to keep his neighborhood free from theft, and  reporting suspicious activity had worked well for the community in the  previous months.

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## S Landreth

The Miami Herald has a 4 page story about the event: What is known, what isn't about Trayvon Martins death - Miami-Dade - MiamiHerald.com

page 2,...........

Hey, weve had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and theres a real suspicious guy, he told the police operator. This guy looks like hes up to no good, or hes on drugs or something. Its raining, and hes just walking around looking about.

Trayvon spotted something suspicious, too: He was being followed.

A T-Mobile phone log provided by the familys attorney shows Trayvons girlfriend called him again at 7:12 p.m., just moments after having hung up with him. I think this dude is following me, Trayvon told her, according to her account to family attorney Benjamin Crump.

The girl says she offered Trayvon advice: Run!

When he say this man behind him again, he come and say, this look like he about to do something to him, the girl told ABC News. And then Trayvon come and said the man was still behind him, and then I come and say, Run! 

Trayvon did just that.

At 7:13, two minutes into Zimmermans call, he tells the police operator: S---, hes running.

A beeping sound is heard, indicating that he has opened his car door. Zimmerman went after Trayvon and, out of breath, muttered profanities. He lost sight of him.

Are you following him? the operator asked.

Yeah.

Ok, we dont need you to do that.

Zimmerman spent almost two more minutes offering directions to the operator. He said hed meet police by the mailboxes and then, just before hanging up, apparently thought better of it. Actually, could you have him call me, and Ill tell him where Im at? he said three minutes and 50 seconds into the call. At 7:15, he hung up .

Lawyers for Trayvons family say Zimmermans decision not to wait for police by the mailboxes and instead be reached by phone proves he planned to keep looking for the teen instead of simply waiting for a patrol car.

The two met up along a dark paved path that runs between the back of two rows of townhouses.

The girl on the phone told Crump that she heard the two exchange questions, like Why are you following me? and What are you doing here?

Zimmermans dad told an Orlando TV station that it went more like, Do you have a f---ing problem? to which George Zimmerman replied no and reached for his phone to call police a second time.

Zimmerman, a married insurance underwriter who studied criminal justice at Seminole State College, told police that Trayvon approached him from behind as he was returning to his car.

He told police, his family and his attorney that Trayvon decked him in the nose hard, causing him to hit the ground. Then, he says, Trayvon started punching him and slamming his head on the concrete.

Its my understanding Trayvon Martin got on top of him and just started beating him in the face, in his nose, hitting his head on the concrete, Zimmermans father, Robert, told Orlandos Fox35.

The girl who said she was talking to Trayvon told the attorney that she heard a scuffle until the line went dead. Her four-minute call ended at 7:16.

----------


## ENT

Quote guyinthailand.

"Twin Lakes is a small gated community, Zimmerman knew who lived there and who didn’t. He didn’t recognize Trayvon.
That seems to be Zimmerman’s sole motive for calling Trayvon in, nothing more. He wanted to keep his neighborhood free from theft, and reporting suspicious activity had worked well for the community in the previous months."




_That's_ how the whole deal started.

But, then, Zimmerman decided to *go against the rules* by;

a) Following Martin when advised not to by the 911 dispatcher, who said,

*"We don''t need you to do that".*

And;
b) Carrying a gun "on the job", a clear violation of;

The Neighborhood Watch manual states, “It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers. And *they shall not carry weapons* or pursue vehicles.”

This happened at the very start of the drama, before anything else took place.

----------


## ENT

^^S Landreth.

Very clearly and well put.

That's what I've read and heard, also.

----------


## guyinthailand

> _That's_ how the whole deal started.
> 
> But, then, Zimmerman decided to *go against the rules* by;
> 
> a) Following Martin when advised not to by the 911 dispatcher, who said,
> 
> *"We don''t need you to do that".*
> 
> And;
> ...





> The Miami Herald has a 4 page story about the event: What is known, what isn't about Trayvon Martins death - Miami-Dade - MiamiHerald.com
> 
> page 2,...........




*All of the above does not matter if Martin is believed to have initiated and continued the violent beating of Zimmerman, if in fact there was such a beating.  

You can't start pounding on someone just because they are following you.*

----------


## S Landreth

> *It was Trayvons voice screaming for help on the 911 call.*This is probably one of the most critical misconceptions of the case.   When the 911 tapes were released, nearly everyone assumed it was  Trayvon screaming for his life on the recording.  It was horrifying and  very emotional.
> *But the evidence shows this terrified voice was actually Zimmermans,* not Trayvons.


A leading expert in the field of forensic voice identification sought to answer that question by analyzing the recordings for the Orlando Sentinel.


His result: It was not George Zimmerman who called for help.

Tom Owen, forensic consultant for Owen Forensic Services LLC and chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence, used voice identification software to rule out Zimmerman. Another expert contacted by the Sentinel, utilizing different techniques, came to the same conclusion.

Zimmerman claims self-defense in the shooting and told police he was the one screaming for help. But these experts say the evidence tells a different story.

'Scientific certainty'

On a rainy night in late February, a woman called 911 to report someone crying out for help in her gated Sanford community, Retreat at Twin Lakes.

Though several of her neighbors eventually called authorities, she phoned early enough for dispatchers to hear the panicked cries and the gunshot that took Trayvon Martin's life.

George Zimmerman, a Neighborhood Watch volunteer, shot Trayvon, an unarmed 17-year-old, during a one-on-one confrontation Feb. 26.

Before the shot, one of them can be heard screaming for help.

Owen, a court-qualified expert witness and former chief engineer for the New York Public Library's Rodgers and Hammerstein Archives of Recorded Sound, is an authority on biometric voice analysis  a computerized process comparing attributes of voices to determine whether they match.

After the Sentinel contacted Owen, he used software called Easy Voice Biometrics to compare Zimmerman's voice to the 911 call screams.

"I took all of the screams and put those together, and cut out everything else," Owen says.

The software compared that audio to Zimmerman's voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he'd expect higher than 90 percent.

"As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen says, stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon's, because he didn't have a sample of the teen's voice to compare.

Forensic voice identification is not a new or novel concept; in fact, a recent U.S. Department of Justice committee report notes that federal interest in the technology "has a history of nearly 70 years."

In the post 9-11 world, Owen says, voice identification is "the main biometric tool" used to track international criminals, as well as terrorists.

"These people don't leave fingerprints, but they do still need to talk to one another," he says.

'The home run'

Though the term "biometric analysis" may sound futuristic, it basically just means using personal characteristics for identification. A fingerprint scanner is an example of a biometric device.

Much as the ridges of a human hand produce a fingerprint, each human voice has unique, distinguishable traits, Owen says. "They're all particular to the individual."

Another benefit of modern biometric analysis, Owen said, is it doesn't require an "in context" comparison. In other words, Owen didn't need a sample of Zimmerman screaming in order to compare his voice to the call. 

The technology Owen used to analyze the Zimmerman tape has a wide range of applications, including national security and international policing, he said. A recently as January, Owen used the same technology to identify accused murderer Sheila Davalloo in a 911 call made almost a decade ago.

Owen testified that it was Davalloo, accused of stabbing another woman nine times in a condo in Shippan, Conn., who reported the killing to police from a pay phone in November 2002.

Davalloo was convicted, according to news reports.

Owen says the audio from Zimmerman's call is much better quality than the 911 call in the Davalloo case. Voice identification experts judge the quality based on a signal-to-noise ratio; in other words, comparing the usable audio in a clip to the environmental noises that make a match difficult.

And the call on which the screams are heard is better quality than is necessary, Owen says.

"In our world, that's the home run," he says.

Not all experts rely on biometrics. Ed Primeau, a Michigan-based audio engineer and forensics expert, is not a believer in the technology's use in courtroom settings.

He relies instead on audio enhancement and human analysis based on forensic experience. After listening closely to the 911 tape on which the screams are heard, Primeau also has a strong opinion.

"I believe that's Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt," Primeau says, stressing that the tone of the voice is a giveaway. "That's a young man screaming."

entire story: Trayvon Martin George Zimmerman 911 call analysis: Two forensic experts say it's not George Zimmerman crying out for help - Orlando Sentinel

----------


## guyinthailand

> "As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen says, *stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon's*, because he didn't have a sample of the teen's voice to compare.


"*stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon's*,"

Where is the quote from Zimmerman or his family saying it is Zimmerman who is screaming for help?

If it is proven Zimmerman is/was lying about this, then that will make it that much harder for a jury to believe anything he says.

----------


## ENT

> .  You can't start pounding on someone just because they are following you.[/U][/B]


Agreed.

So far, no evidence has been determined to support the claim of a "pounding" on Zimmerman.

The autopsy and forensic reports concerning Martin's condition at death are due to be released later this month, along with other evidential forensic reports relating to this case.

No one can pre-judge the matter, although each one of us has an opinion of who did what and to whom, as well as their motives.

The truth of the matter can only come from factual evidence, not simply conjecture into the event.

The truth, will finally let us free of all the confusion so far observed.

What happens after is an entirely separate issue.

There's going to have to be another enquiry into the policing of the _whole_ issue.

----------


## ENT

> It was not George Zimmerman who called for help.
> 
> Owen, a court-qualified expert witness and former chief engineer for the New York Public Library's Rodgers and Hammerstein Archives of Recorded Sound, is an authority on biometric voice analysis — a computerized process comparing attributes of voices to determine whether they match......he used software called Easy Voice Biometrics to compare Zimmerman's voice to the 911 call screams.
> 
> Though the term "biometric analysis" may sound futuristic, it basically just means using personal characteristics for identification. A fingerprint scanner is an example of a biometric device.
> Much as the ridges of a human hand produce a fingerprint, each human voice has unique, distinguishable traits, Owen says. "They're all particular to the individual.
> 
>  Ed Primeau, a Michigan-based audio engineer and forensics expert, .....relies instead on audio enhancement and human analysis based on forensic experience. After listening closely to the 911 tape on which the screams are heard, Primeau also has a strong opinion....
> "I believe that's Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt," Primeau says, stressing that the tone of the voice is a giveaway. "That's a young man screaming."



Biometric analysis is also used in Linguistcs as an aid to identifying a language student's ability to pronounce words accurately.
I have been profiled this way, and can verify your explanation regarding the efficaciousness of this method of identification.

The technology is in use in voice operated computers as in dictation instead of typing into a computer as well as smart phone voice operated commands etc.

The technology is extremely precise in identifying tonal variations of speech patterns and is one of the most secure methods of ""password/ ID currently available.

I too, am of the opinion that the voice heard screaming for help on the 911 audio tapes was that of an adolescent, not a mature man.

It was not nice listening, at all.

----------


## guyinthailand

^ I think most people who had been shot and were still conscious would call for help.

If it was Martin calling for help it doesn't show, demonstrate or prove in any way shape or form that Zimmerman wasn't justified in shooting him.

I asked above if anyone has the confirmed quote where Zimmerman or his family claims it was Zimmerman calling for help.  Does anyone have this?  If Zimmerman lied about this, it is not good for him.  However, and this is a big 'but'--even if 'the' voice heard on the tape is Martin's it doesn't mean Zimmerman didn't call for help.  That tape didn't necessarily pick up EVERYthing.

And you know what they say about, for example, 9 witnesses to an accident/shooting/whatever:  there will be 9 different versions of the event.

----------


## ENT

The screaming for help is reported as having ocured _before_ a shot was heard by one reported witness,.(see list of 911 calls posted earlier in this thread.

There is no confirmed statement indicating that it was Zimmerman screaming for help, only opinions offered, so far as I have read.
There is no technology yet available that picks up every piece of information in a way that we can easily analise and understand the information detected accurately.

Sure, all witness accounts to an event differ, according to each witness's point of view. They are all usually evaluated collectively, as well as individually, to reach a conclusion as to what has occurred.

----------


## guyinthailand

Let's assume for the moment screaming was really heard prior to a shot and this report isn't just an erroneous account from an unreliable witness.  Then here is a scenario, assuming it really was Martin's voice:

I think some Treyvon Martin-types, intent on attacking  Zimmerman-types, might start to scream and yell and call for help once they realized the  tables had turned and they were now facing the barrel of a gun and possibly the end of their life.  

And of course I realize that maybe, somehow, Martin didn't instigate an  attack on Zimmerman and it was a rabid Zimmerman who, in the eyes of the  law, started an attack. 

Still, calling for help, before or after a fight, by either Martin or Zimmerman, proves nothing one way or the other.

----------


## ENT

As you point out, the likelihood is that the voice heard, is of one screaming into the barrel of a gun.

----------


## guyinthailand

Please note I didn't say it was likely.

I said 'assume it was Martin's voice' (for argument's sake).

It still could have been Zimmerman's voice.

And if it was Martin's voice that doesn't prove Martin didn't instigate a violent attack on Zimmerman.  In other words, maybe Martin deserved to be looking down the barrel of a gun.

----------


## sabang

> Misconceptions in the Trayvon Martin Case


That article comes across as a plant straight from the 'celebrity defence attorney'.
This has definitely got to be tried in a Court of law. All of this 'trial by media' is discrediting the US legal system.
A Court of Law is where guilt or innocence can be impartially established.

----------


## ENT

You said;

"I think some Treyvon Martin-types,...".    (OK, by me, for argument's sake),
"It could have been Zimmerman's voice".

The fact that it is (evidentially conjectured) to be Martin's voice does not prove anything other than that Martin was pleading for help, not that  Zimmerman was.
No way _at all_ was it Zimmerman calling for help.
So Zimmerman is thus evidenced as having an advantage over Martin's situation in that event.

Whether or not Zimmerman had a _right by law_ to execute Martin is not the point.

Zimmerman had _over extended_ his right to approach Martin in the fashion that he displayed.
(_Vis_) that he breached established protocol in carrying a weapon in his role as a neighbourhood watchman and refused to follow advice to _not_ pursue Martin, as directed by the 911 call operator.

----------


## guyinthailand

I thought from the expert's quote below (that was also posted above) that it has not yet been confirmed that it was (Trayvon) Martin's voice.

I'm not sure why you are talking about an 'advantage' you say Zimmerman had over Martin when a voice (maybe Martin's) is allegedly heard pleading for help.  Isn't the issue who attacked whom--if indeed there was an attack at all--and who was justified in using deadly force, if justified at all?  Unless...unless Martin's alleged words can somehow be used to prove Martin's attack (if there was one) had stopped and THEREFORE Zimmerman was no longer justified in using deadly force.  That indeed would be significant.  Then you could indeed use the word 'execute' (see below).




> "As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen says, *stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon's*, because he didn't have a sample of the teen's voice to compare.


"*stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon's*,"




> You said;
> 
> "I think some Treyvon Martin-types,...".    (OK, by me, for argument's sake),
> "It could have been Zimmerman's voice".
> 
> The fact that it is (evidentially conjectured) to be Martin's voice does  not prove anything other than that Martin was pleading for help, not  that  Zimmerman was.
> No way _at all_ was it Zimmerman calling for help.
> So Zimmerman is thus evidenced as having an advantage over Martin's situation in that event.
> 
> ...



If Zimmerman had a right by law to use deadly force then I think your choice of the word 'execute' is unfortunate.




> Whether or not Zimmerman had a _right by law_ to execute Martin is not the point.


I think the entire point is "whether or not Zimmerman had a right by law to" use deadly force.

It is only your opinion that Zimmerman "over extended his right to approach Martin in the fashion that he displayed".  There is no law specifying anything about "over extending ones right to approach".  Zimmerman wasn't doing anything illegal by either 1) carrying his gun or 2) "following"  Martin.   Also, The 911 operator had no legal authority to tell a citizen not to follow another person (I don't think so anyway) and the operator did not "order" Zimmerman to stop.  It may turn out that Martin stopped walking away from Zimmerman, turned around, stomped back to the 'honky' or 'cracker' following him, and instigated a fight.  

Also, I think I heard that Zimmerman wasn't 'on duty' as a watchman but was on his way to the store.  Not sure about that.  Besides, it won't matter in the end if the jury believes his life was in danger from Martin.

----------


## Boon Mee

Of course Zim had the right to use force.  Big Sis Warned Us About Suspicious Men in Hoodies.

Last March Homeland Security released the controversial video, If You See Something, Say Something (TM).  DHS | "If You See Something, Say Something" Campaign

In the video the bad guys planting bombs wear hoodies.

"If You See Something, Say Something (TM)" Public Awareness video. - YouTube!

The money quote:  "At the time Zimmerman shot Martin, was he or was he not pinned on the ground and being repeatedly assaulted by Martin such that he had a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily injury?"

That's all that matters in this case...

----------


## guyinthailand

> The money quote:  "At the time Zimmerman shot Martin, was he or was he not pinned on the ground and being repeatedly assaulted by Martin such that he had a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily injury?"
> 
> That's all that matters in this case...


Actually, one doesn't have to be pinned to the ground and be in the process of being beaten to convince a 'reasonable person' on a jury that one was in fear of imminent bodily harm.

As I showed in posts prior to this one, a person with a knife 21 feet away from you (with your gun) is a lethal threat.  You are justified in shooting a person with a knife 21 feet from you if he is threatening to use that knife on you (but it is doubtful, as I showed, that you will be able to get your gun out in time to defend yourself).

Martin may have had a screwdriver.  Wasn't Zimmerman heard saying something like "he's reaching in his waistband" or "he is reaching in his pocket"...something to that effect?

We shall see if Zimmerman claims Martin produced a weapon (screwdriver, for example).  There was also talk elsewhere of Martin having a can of soda.  Try getting hit just one time in the head with a (one pound?) can of soda.  That's more of a weapon than brass knuckles.  Did Martin threaten to use, or actually use, a heavy object to hit Zimmerman?

----------


## Kwang

> There was also talk elsewhere of Martin having a can of soda. Try getting hit just one time in the head with a (one pound?) can of soda. That's more of a weapon than brass knuckles


Is a can of Coke a deadly weapon in the US ? What about the packet of skittles he had. They're chewy in the middle, but have a kind of hard shell ?  :Smile:

----------


## ENT

At this point of the discussion of this case, anything and everything publicisised as either fact or possibility has been aired right down to whether a can of soda or a screw driver could kill a man.

Nearly every possible reason for either party concerned to act in the way they did has also been aired.

From now on in the discussion all anyone is going to achieve is to go over old ground dredging for items that have been missed in our collective search for evidence and motive.

It's been a very controversial discussion, and some great input too, but let's not forget that one young man is dead and another's life is in the balance.

The various permutations possible of US laws pertaining to this issue are as yet to be decided, before any trial for murder can even begin.

This is all up to the state's department of prosecution as to if even a trial will take place.

In my opinion, there is sufficient cause to further investigate all things associated with both Martin's death and Zimmerman's actions on that night.

It is also clear enough to me that the reported evidences discussed weigh largely against Zimmerman. This is my opinion.

He has yet to be tried, and that depends upon the verdict of either a grand jury or the decision of a senior state prosecutor or attorney.
I am not conversant with US law, but given that it is based upon the Magna Carta, as is UK law, I see no reason why Zimmerman can not be brought to face trial over the matter.
If he is found guilty, then he will be penalised according to US statutory guidelines.

He is innocent until proven guilty, and no amount of conjecture can affect the issue.

In my mind, Zimmerman has a case to answer.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Originally Posted by guyinthailand
> 
> There was also talk elsewhere of Martin having a can of soda. Try getting hit just one time in the head with a (one pound?) can of soda. That's more of a weapon than brass knuckles
> 
> 
> Is a can of Coke a deadly weapon in the US ? What about the packet of skittles he had. They're chewy in the middle, but have a kind of hard shell ?


A metal can of Coke is if you're hitting someone with it.

Just as a screwdriver is.

But for you to suggest the Skittles are a deadly weapon suggests it is your brain that is, to use your words, "chewy in the middle".

----------


## guyinthailand

> ...there is sufficient cause to further investigate all things associated with both Martin's death and Zimmerman's actions on that night.


Agree




> It is also clear enough to me that the reported evidences discussed weigh largely against Zimmerman.


Disagree. 

I place my bet now: I believe the evidence will show Zimmerman had a reasonable belief his life was in danger and that  Zimmerman was justified in using deadly force.   Fortunately for Zimmerman, this happened in Florida--not in L.A. as per O.J. Simpson--and there is less liklihood of a jury deciding in the black man's favor JUST BECAUSE HE IS BLACK (and fear of riots, etc), as was done in O.J. Simpson case.




> I see no reason why Zimmerman can not be brought to face trial over the matter.


Agree.




> If he is found guilty, then he will be penalised according to US statutory guidelines.  He is innocent until proven guilty, and no amount of conjecture can affect the issue.


Agree.




> ...Zimmerman has a case to answer.


Agree.

----------


## Thaihome

> ...
> The racial question can probably be summarised in one sentence- If Trayvon Martin was a white kid walking back home from 711, would he now be dead?


Im unclear what you are saying here.

Are you saying that Zimmerman would not have followed and called in to 911 when he spotted someone in hoodie  if he thought the person was white? 

Or are you saying that a white kid, with tattoos and gold capped teeth wearing a hoodie, would not have confronted Zimmerman and punched him in the face?

TH

----------


## Kwang

> But for you to suggest the Skittles are a deadly weapon suggests it is your brain that is, to use your words, "chewy in the middle".


 :Smile: 
Bare hands are a deadly weapon, There are people out there that are well capable of killing someone with a blow to the temple, nasion or fultrum

My guess is Zimmerman will walk free as well, due to the Shoot First Law

----------


## robuzo

> Or are you saying that a white kid, with tattoos and gold capped teeth wearing a hoodie, would not have confronted Zimmerman and punched him in the face?
> 
> TH


Oh, so _that's_ what happened! Except for the "white" part. Thanks for clearing that up for us, case dismissed.

----------


## guyinthailand

> ...
> The racial question can probably be summarised in one sentence- If Trayvon Martin was a white kid walking back home from 711, would he now be dead?


Depends on whether the 'white kid' had assaulted Zimmerman with deadly force, then sure, he'd be dead, too.

Maybe the racial question can be summed up this way: If Zimmerman had been black and the black Zimmerman had killed the black Martin would we be discussing this death?  Would all those 'black power' groups, congressmen and liberal media hangers-on be foaming at the mouth over a black death if the killer had been black?  They are the real racists.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by guyinthailand
> 
> But for you to suggest the Skittles are a deadly weapon suggests it is your brain that is, to use your words, "chewy in the middle".
> 
> 
> 
> Bare hands are a deadly weapon, There are people out there that are well capable of killing someone with a blow to the temple, nasion or fultrum
> 
> My guess is Zimmerman will walk free as well, due to the Shoot First Law


Almost anything can be turned into a deadly weapon.
Intent is what counts.

A plastic bag, a ball tipped pen, a piece of wood, or a bag of skittles forced down your throat.....Hmmm.

You're clutching at straws g/inth.
I shouldn't have mentioned straws, enough of them held the right way... :mid:

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by Kwang
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by guyinthailand
> ...




*MAN BUTTERED TO DEATH!*


Death by butter might sound like a delicious and decadent way to go, but for one couple in Sicily butter seemed like the perfect sinister murder weapon.

The Sicilian pair believed that they could get away with murder if butter was their weapon of choice. Their victim was the womans ex-husband. She and her new beau hatched a plan to asphyxiate her ex-lover with butter, which would then melt away, leaving no trace of the murder weapon.

Calogero Lo Cocco made the fatal mistake of visiting the home of his ex-wife in Campobello di Licata, in Southern Sicily. The wife and her boyfriend attacked Lo Cocco in their home, suffocating him with butter. When they turned the body over to police, they claimed that Lo Cocco had assaulted them so they had been forced to tie him up, when he suddenly collapsed and died.

Their evil but inventive plot was uncovered when an autopsy revealed butter in the victims airways.

Sicilian Couple Commits Murder with Butter | butter | ITALY Magazine


One of the many ways of death and dying.

----------


## ENT

SANFORD, Fla. — The people who could end up paying the financial price for the shooting death of Trayvon Martin are, ultimately, the homeowners of the Retreat at Twin Lakes development, say specialists who deal with homeowners associations.

If George Zimmerman, their crime watch program captain, is charged with and convicted of killing Martin, the community's association and property management company probably will be sued by the victim's family over the way the program was established and operated, said Donna Berger, a lawyer who specializes in homeowners association law.

"They may wind up getting sued and getting hit with hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees and damages," Berger said. "Who will pay is every member of the association, and they will have to make special assessments.... It's a cautionary tale for other associations."

Even if Zimmerman is never charged, the association could be sued. But the plaintiffs' case would be easier if he were convicted.




Zimmerman was the point person for the subdivision's neighborhood watch program. The September edition of the community's newsletter stated: "To receive Neighborhood Watch updates, safety tips and be noticed [sic] of any suspicious activity within your community, call George Zimmerman." It included his phone number, which has since been disconnected.

*It is unclear how much the community's watch program worked with Sanford police.* The department's crime prevention specialist, Wendy Dorival, did not return calls.



*Jan Bergemann of DeBary, Fla., who operates a homeowners association watchdog group called Cyber Citizens for Justice, said the Retreat at Twin Lakes association should have set rules that warned crime watch members against arming themselves when doing anything that might be considered the business of the watch program.*

*"They should have issued proper guidelines that disallowed members from running around with guns,"* Bergemann said. ".... If the Martin family brings a wrongful-death lawsuit, more or less I think the association will be on the hook.(Link below)@More.

..................................................  .................
*The guidelines were already there.*
The Neighborhood Watch manual states, “It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers. And they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles.”






More;
Homeowners could pay in Trayvon Martin killing - latimes.com

----------


## ENT

*The botched crime investigation.*

Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com

----------


## guyinthailand

> *MAN BUTTERED TO DEATH!*
> 
> One of the many ways of death and dying.


nice post, Ent.  Really adds to the discussion.   Keep 'em coming.

----------


## guyinthailand

> "They may wind up getting sued and getting hit with hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees and damages," Berger said. 
> 
> *"They should have issued proper guidelines that disallowed members from running around with guns,"* Bergemann said. ".... If the Martin family brings a wrongful-death lawsuit, more or less I think the association will be on the hook.(Link below)@More.
> 
> ..................................................  .................
> *The guidelines were already there.*
> The Neighborhood Watch manual states, “It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers. And they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles.”


I said many posts back that even if Zimmerman shot Martin in self-defense there would be humongous legal bills.  Ayoob's advice of "The highest power of the gun is not to use it" certainly is true here. If Zimmerman had been able to step back and hold Martin at gunpoint, rather than (as I feel) being forced to fire, lives would be a lot different.

It may be shown Zimmerman was on his way to the store rather than acting as a crime watch. More important, the 'guidelines' won't matter _if_ it is shown Zimmerman shot him in self-defense.

----------


## robuzo

> If Zimmerman had been able to step back and hold Martin at gunpoint, rather than (as I feel) being forced to fire, lives would be a lot different.


LOL, then the cops probably would have arrested Zimmerman. Or shot him.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Originally Posted by guyinthailand
> 
> 
>  If Zimmerman had been able to step back and hold Martin at gunpoint, rather than (as I feel) being forced to fire, lives would be a lot different.
> 
> 
> LOL, then the cops probably would have arrested Zimmerman. Or shot him.


Sure, those are possibilities, though if you've called the cops and explained you're holding someone at gunpoint, it is unlikely you'll be shot.

Pulling the trigger is not always or even often necessary to stop violent attacks.  Pointing the gun at the attacker as you step back yelling deeply and loudly "Don't move!" will cause most people to stop their attack and do what you say.  But if they lunge at you and/or your gun, then it is reasonable to assume they are trying to get the gun and use it against you.  In that case, pulling the trigger is the logical & reasonable thing to do.

----------


## robuzo

^Cops generally don't like to arrive on a scene where some civilian has his gun out and is pointing it at someone. That is just one reason Neighborhood Watch volunteers aren't supposed to carry guns (not that Zimmerman was actually registered with that organization, but never mind).
National Neighborhood Watch director criticizes Zimmerman&#039;s actions in Trayvon Martin shooting ...
Chris Tutko, director of Neighborhood Watch for the National Sheriffs' Association, elaborated on the rules that George Zimmerman broke. First, he approached a suspicious stranger. "If you see something suspicious, you report it, you step aside and you let law enforcement do their job," Tutko said. "This guy [Zimmerman] went way beyond the call of duty. At the least, he's overzealous."

Volunteers should resist the urge to intervene, Tutko said, even if they happen to see a crime in progress, because they may become victims themselves. He tells Neighborhood Watch trainees that "you do what you can, when you can, as much as you can, but if you cross the line, everybody loses."

In addition, although Zimmerman broke no laws because he has a concealed weapons permit, it's something that Neighborhood Watch strongly discourages. "There's no reason to carry a gun," Tutko said. "You do not carry a weapon during neighborhood watch. If you carry a weapon, you're going to pull it."

----------


## guyinthailand

> ^  (not that Zimmerman was actually registered with that organization, but never mind).


Is this correct?: he wasn't part of the neighborhood watch?  Then why are they talking above about suing the neighborhood watch group?





> Chris Tutko, director of Neighborhood Watch for the National Sheriffs' Association, elaborated on the rules that George Zimmerman broke. First, he approached a suspicious stranger. "If you see something suspicious, you report it, you step aside and you let law enforcement do their job," Tutko said. "This guy [Zimmerman] went way beyond the call of duty. At the least, he's overzealous."


Is it proven beyond all doubt that Zimmerman 'approached' Martin?  I thought he followed him while calling the cops.  I think it may be shown that Martin approached and attacked Zimmerman.

----------


## robuzo

^They are talking about suing the condo association.

Just FYI: http://abcnews.go.com/US/fbi-justice...5#.T3mBKTHxqpg
According to Chris Tutko, the director of the National Neighborhood Watch Program, there are about 22,000 registered watch groups nationwide, and Zimmerman was not part of a registered group -- another fact the police were not aware of at the time of the incident.

----------


## ENT

^^Zimmerman pursued and approached Martin all the way to their place and point of conflict, that has been recorded on the 911 tapes and witnessed by Martin's girlfriend by her phone.

----------


## guyinthailand

*
 “Plzz shoot da #mf dat lied 2 u!”*




> Not adding fuel to the fire, but in case you’re sick of being force-fed pictures from when he was 12 or the heavily photoshopped hoodie shot, here’s what Trayvon Martin really looked like:
> 
> 
> 
> He chose this to represent him on one of his Twitter feeds, where he called himself T33ZY_TAUGHT_M3 and encouraged one of his fellow thugs to commit murder with the tweet, “Plzz shoot da #mf dat lied 2 u!”
> 
> Just your average boy next door, eh?


 


> ^^Zimmerman pursued and approached Martin all the way to their place and point of conflict, that has been recorded on the 911 tapes and witnessed by Martin's girlfriend by her phone.


So are you saying you know for a fact that, while Zimmerman was following Martin and on the phone with the cops---you're saying you know with absolute certainty that Martin did not turn around then approach/confront/attack Zimmerman and that THAT is the reason Martin is dead: because he initiated the violent confrontation with Zimmerman who had called the cops on Martin?  

I call your attention to the tweet from Martin in which he exhorts a friend of his to “Plzz shoot da #mf dat lied 2 u!”  

  Now that is diplomacy!  To exhort someone to shoot another human being for lying.  Nice guy!  If he gets that violent with someone who lied how do you think he felt about a 'cracker/honky' following him while the 'cracker' called the cops?


  This is the same Martin caught with expensive women’s jewelry and burglary tools.

  Just a sweet child on his way to the store to get some Skittles.

*
 “Plzz shoot da #mf dat lied 2 u!”*

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> ^^*Zimmerman pursued and approached Martin all the way to their place and point of conflict, that has been recorded on the 911 tapes and witnessed by Martin's girlfriend by her phone.*
> 
> 
> So are you saying you know for a fact that, while Zimmerman was following Martin and on the phone with the cops---you're saying you know with absolute certainty that Martin did not turn around then approach/confront/attack Zimmerman and that THAT is the reason Martin is dead: because he initiated the violent confrontation with Zimmerman who had called the cops on Martin?


Your contentions are desperate.

I said that Zimmerman *pursued and approached Martin all the way* to their place and point of conflict. _That_ has been recorded on the 911 tapes and witnessed by Martin's girlfriend on her phone.

*Zimmerman initiated the pursuit and confrontation,* according to all reports so far.

The only reported following or confrontation to date, is of Zimmerman following Martin (on the 911 tapes and reported by Martin to his girlfriend on the phone) and of Martin asking Zimmerman why he was following him, before the phone went dead, (reported by Martin's girl friend).

*The "stand your ground" law applies to Martin's right to do so too.*
That's what it sounds as though Martin's doing when he asks Zimmerman what he wants.


Sanford police chief Bill Lee taught at the same college that Zimmerman attended. Zimmerman has since been dismissed from the college.
Police chief Bill Lee blocked all charges against Zimmerman, even after other officers saw grounds to charge him and had filled out a charge sheet based on the evidence they had at hand and Zimmerman's confession that_ he intended to kill Martin_.

*Prosecutors even have Zimmermans confession that he intended to kill Martin.*
Three problems with George Zimmerman

Bill Lee has now been forced to step down as Sanford's police chief and _his_ actions are_ also_ under investigation.

Zimmerman's father has publicly voiced  most of Zimmerman's account of the event.
Zimmerman's father is a retired judge in Sanford.

----------


## S Landreth

FBI agents on Monday were questioning potential witnesses in the Trayvon Martin shooting, confirming to NBC News that the agency had begun a "parallel investigation" that focuses on whether the teen's civil rights were violated.

entire story: U.S. News - FBI questions people in Trayvon Martin case, begins 'parallel investigation'

----------


## sabang

> “Plzz shoot da #mf dat lied 2 u


Internet tough guy- so what. I doubt you'd have real gangbanga's active on social media somehow. Walking while Black is not a crime, and the shooting of an unarmed youth walking home from a convenience store is almost as pathetic as implying that the kid deserved it because he was black and a typical youth.

----------


## Boon Mee

Fine examples of son & father, eh?

----------


## sabang

Yes, I'm sure Harvard summa cum laude graduate Obama was a mythical bangbanga, just like Trayvon. Grow up.

----------


## robuzo

It's good of these guys to protest that we can't really know what happened and then go out of their way to traduce the character of a dead teenager. How very transparent. And disgusting.

----------


## Boon Mee

> Yes, I'm sure Harvard summa cum laude graduate Obama was a mythical bangbanga, just like Trayvon. Grow up.


We don't have anyone's word other than his own he graduated summa cum laude since the records are sealed.

Wonder why?

And you are a 'grown up' Obamabot.... :Sad:

----------


## sabang

> Wonder why?


Aww, dunno- maybe because he was a gangbanga, drug dealing, nigga rapist? Grow up.

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> Wonder why?
> 
> 
> Aww, dunno- maybe because he was a gangbanga, drug dealing, nigga rapist? Grow up.


I don't think growing up has ever been a cure for actual insanity.

----------


## Boon Mee

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> Wonder why?
> 
> 
> Aww, dunno- maybe because he was a gangbanga, drug dealing, nigga rapist? Grow up.


Having a bad day today, sabang?

You take Obama's word that he graduated blah, blah, blah but why are his records sealed.  It's more than a fair question.

On topic:  The Trayvon Martin Walkbacks Threaten To Become A Stampede.

----------


## ENT

Keep raising the race issue and the blacks_ will_ go ape.

Ol' honky ouhta have more sense, or are all middle Americans dumb?

----------


## guyinthailand

> I said that Zimmerman *pursued and approached Martin all the way* to their place and point of conflict. _That_ has been recorded on the 911 tapes and witnessed by Martin's girlfriend on her phone.
> 
> *Zimmerman initiated the pursuit and confrontation,* according to all reports so far.
> 
> The only reported following or confrontation to date, is of Zimmerman following Martin (on the 911 tapes and reported by Martin to his girlfriend on the phone) and of Martin asking Zimmerman why he was following him, before the phone went dead, (reported by Martin's girl friend).


"before the phone went dead".  So after Martin supposedly asks Zimmerman why he was following him, the phone goes dead.

So you and nobody else (except Zimmerman) seems to know what happened then, in that crucial moment.  

You want to believe Zimmerman attacked Martin unprovoked.  But you and no one else can say beyond a reasonable doubt what REALLY happened.  *You have a BELIEF,* that's all.  *A prejudice, actually*.  Because the truth is* YOU DON'T KNOW* if the the guy who tweeted '*pls shoot da Mf*#cker dat lied 2U'*--you don't know if he first attacked Zimmerman, or if Zimmerman just decides to up and kill a black kid for no reason, even though Zimmerman and his wife mentor two black kids, and even though Zimmerman came from a culturally diverse background and grew up with people of color.  

Yep, Ent has it all figured out: case closed.  

Below is my question to you yet again, which above you failed to answer.  An honest answer is "I  don't know".   That's how I answer the question below, which is the answer everyone else should be giving until something is proven (if it ever is proven): "I don't know".

"So are you saying you know for a fact that, while Zimmerman was  following Martin and on the phone with the cops---you're saying you know  with absolute certainty that Martin did not turn around then  approach/confront/attack Zimmerman and that THAT is the reason Martin is  dead: because he initiated the violent confrontation with Zimmerman who  had called the cops on Martin?"

----------


## guyinthailand

> On topic:  The Trayvon Martin Walkbacks Threaten To Become A Stampede.


from link above I excerpt the following:
*April 2, 2012
*

*As The Trayvon Martin Walkbacks Threaten To Become A Stampede*_

                                The media walkbacks in the Trayvon Martin shooting case are piling up._ _
 ABC News has pulled the plug on its breakthrough video  showing an uninjured Zimmerman being taken to the police station.;  their new, enhanced video "Shows Injury".  Oops. 

In  related report, a  local news outlet had_  _reported  a chat with Zimmerman's neighbor, who said George was bandaged and  bruised.  Obviously, this supports Zimmerman's self-defense story.  Or,  if you prefer, it makes it harder for a prosecutor to overcome his  self-defense claim.


 NBC News is_  _investigating  their deplorable editing of a video in which they trimmed part of  Zimmerman's 911 call down to "This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He  looks black."  Oops.


 And the NY Times has_  _quashed  the "Large Scary Man Chasing Helpless Child" meme with the news that  Zimmerman weighed 170 pounds and Martin weighed 150.  Oops. 

Obviously,  this makes Zimmerman's self-defense story more plausible, as even_  _Charles Blow
_ should admit. _
 Heckuva job by the media.  We may have race riots in Florida so I  hope they enjoyed their time on the fashionable side of this story._

----------


## guyinthailand

> If George Zimmerman, their crime watch program captain,


Didn't Robuzo above state that Zimmerman did not even belong to this watch program? (not that it matters for his defense).




> Neighborhood Watch volunteers aren't supposed to  carry guns (not that Zimmerman was actually registered with that  organization, but never mind).

----------


## guyinthailand

here is an excerpt from an ABC piece. Would Zimmerman's lawyer jeopardize  his client's case by lying about a broken nose?


By  MATT GUTMAN (@mattgutmanABC)                      
                                                                        SANFORD, Fla. April 2, 2012


Trayvon Martin Case: Doctor Sees Little Evidence George Zimmerman Had Broken Nose - ABC News
_
A new enhanced version of the surveillance  video of George Zimmerman   in custody, may support neighborhood-watch  shooter's story in the   Trayvon Martin shooting.  (ABC NEWS)_

_ "The initial police report noted that Zimmerman was bleeding from the  back of the head and nose, and his lawyer later claimed that Zimmeran  suffered a broken nose."_

----------


## larvidchr

Many I fear on this thread are together with the media guilty of trying  to pervert the course of justice by fuelling empirical notions of what  happened during the Trayvon/Zimmerman incident, are and promoting their  wish for a certain outcome rather than posting by authorities  disclosed proven facts.

Media in these matters are like old dirty whores. very liberal with the  facts and only thinking of the bottom-line milking this for all it is  worth, more often than not media is shown to only have or promote half  the facts, I know because I have participated in enough events later  unrecognisable in the media, and/or turned around on it's head with  clever employed journalistic tools to fit with the Editorial line  decided upon.

Why don't you all just wait and see what the investigations and  subsequent prosecutors will decide, one thing is sure since the case now  is investigated by the FBI Zimmerman will have the dubious VIP honour  of getting convicted of something/anything if there is even a molecule  of a hint swirling in the air. That will be FBI's bound objective since a  not guilty of anything decision will make Obama look like a racial  biased total buffoon having interfered in this case.

So you can leave this thread and be sure that justice will be served one way or the other :mid:   and that in this case for the sake of racial harmony fear of riots and  bad press and public opinion - the lowest possible parameter, Zimmerman  will not have the benefit of Reasonable doubt, the usual legal safeguard  against getting convicted of a crime.

So our Young "Victim" and his distraught relatives, like his Mother that  I read somewhere have tastefully sought copyright on certain slogans  with her Son's name, will hold all the cards, and they will get  Zimmerman convicted, if the now uncharacteristic for a similar case,  special treatment super high resource law-enforcement investigation, can  create or find the slightest of a minuscule chink in Zimmermans  self-defence story.

And if he by US law is guilty then Zimmerman should be convicted no if's  or but's about it, then it is a terrible tragic crime, caused by  crossed signals in a society where there is little trust, way to much  violence and high racial tensions.

But please do not try to make the Black teen out like he was Jesus, he  was a wannabe Gang-banger, dressing like them, having the body  modifications to look like them, and talking the trash-can gang-banger  lingo, how you portray yourself do, no matter how wrong it might be  theoretically, have a profound impact on how people react towards you in  real life. If I put on a borrowed Bandidos vest and go to a Hells  Angeles party I have a pretty good notion of the risks I am running and the possible painful outcome, this no matter how nice I might really be under the vest, if  you get my point even if it is a crude and simple analogy.

Young people of today behave increasingly limitless, reckless,  unintelligent and narcissistic, and claim no responsibility when things  go wrong all the time, backed by hysteric incompetent parents and  different PC and rights groups, they are doing our young no favours.

----------


## Boon Mee

> Heckuva job by the media.  We may have race riots in Florida so I  hope they enjoyed their time on the fashionable side of this story.


The media cooks all these stories, and then acts arrogant and belligerent when we notice they're cooking these stories. That makes them angry...

----------


## Humbert

^both sides are putting out versions that are implausible. The kid's family and friends would have us believe that he was innocently strolling through the neighborhood when he was stalked, attacked and killed by Zimmerman. Zimmerman's family and friends would have us believe that in the course of carrying out his responsibility as neighborhood watch captain he was assaulted and shot the kid in self defense. Since there are no witnesses to the entire event it is likely that it will come down to a case of 'he said -  he said' if he is ever charged with a crime. None of the forensic evidence can unequivocally support either version. Given that, he will be exonerated. The tragedy is that this stupid Florida law allowed Zimmerman to go free without collecting evidence or arresting him as part of a proper investigation.

----------


## ENT

The last two posts #s 503 and 504, ^^ and ^^^go on about how the media have screwed all this up when in fact the posters involved are relying on the media for the info supplied by them to make their statements.
Now, _that's_ screwed up if anything is!

Sure, some of the media reports are totally sensationalist, but some are quite relevant items of pertinent factual reporting.

Talk about ad hominem attacks, FFS!

You two are as guilty as anyone for shooting the messenger , and indiscriminately at that!

The truth of this situation is that a hell of a lot of emotional rhetoric has entered the reportage of this shooting, and has clouded the whole issue in racism and rival class conflict.

The repercussions of this case are going to reverberate right through the whole social and legal fabric of middle American security issues.

Step back from personal bias and pre-judgements based on colour and class and a clearer picture of the drama can be seen.

Motives and character references aside, there are facts reported about this case that can_ not_ be ignored.

Opinions regarding what might have been, or supposed that was, and who's making money on the side lines and political capital, or any other conjecture, are all totally irrelevant in discerning what in fact occurred.

*What happened?*

An unarmed youth was shot dead by an armed man who _deliberately_ stalked him and by his own confession wanted to kill the youth.

*This is a reported and verified fact.*

Both Zimmerman and Martin had the right under law to "stand their ground" under threat.

There is evidence to support Zimmerman's rightful action and there is evidence to support Martin's also, that night.

*What happened next?*

The process of law stepped in and screwed up! That's obvious! Why the hell has it all come to this otherwise?

The legal screw up is _so_ bad that the FBI has had to go in and make an investigation of the matter, and even the POTUS is now embroiled in the mess!

It is better that all engaged in this controversy, public, press, president and police and all parties concerned simply step back from the issue, calm down and let the American judiciary process take it's inevitable course.

The matter will not go un-noticed, nor be swept under the carpet.

It's gonna shake the tree, man, it's gonna shake the tree.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Step back from personal bias and pre-judgements based on colour and class and a clearer picture of the drama can be seen.


This is funny coming from you, Ent.   You jumped on the 'racist-honky-murdered-the-innocent-sweet-black-boy' bandwagon a long time ago.




> An unarmed youth was shot dead by an armed man who _deliberately_ stalked him and by his own confession wanted to kill the youth.*This is a reported and verified fact.*


Your distortions know no bounds!  "Stalked" is a ridiculous word to use here.  Hyperbole as usual coming from Ent.  And Zimmerman "wanted to kill the youth" is more out-of-context BS coming from Ent.  

Zimmerman will argue--and we shall see if it is Rightfully argued--that of course he wanted to kill the guy who was trying to kill him.  How many times do I have to tell you, Ent, that it is legal to kill another human--even to WANT to kill another human--if your life is in immediate and unavoidable danger.  Zimmerman saying he wanted to exercise his right to self defense--to kill Martin--is no big deal if in the context of self defense.    Your harping on this shows you have little real evidence to stand on.  

But if it can be shown that Zimmerman set out that night to murder someone in cold blood and did murder someone in cold blood, then of course that is wrong and deserves punishment.

But, Ent, stop trying to make it out as if Zimmerman confessed to murdering Martin.

You're entire stance gets discredited everytime you make statements like this.  You are revealed for what you are: a biased, prejudiced reverse racist who has already made up his mind and who is distorting what happened.




> Both Zimmerman and Martin had the right under law to "stand their ground" under threat.


"Stand your ground" may not even apply here.  What will for sure apply here is an individuals right to self-defense.  Perhaps we will see if Zimmerman can show his own life was in danger enough to take anothers life--if indeed Zimmerman took Martin's life.  Martin could have tried to take the gun away from Zimmerman and Martin could have caused the firearm to discharge, that is, Martin could have caused himself to get shot.  And I wouldn't discount this scenario for a second...Martin was a punk who texted people to 'Pls shoot da MF dat lied 2U".  I can easily envision a scenario where Martin turned around to confront the guy following him, Martin attacked Zimmerman, Zimmerman pulls his gun, Martin grabs the gun causing it to go off.  But even if Zimmerman pulled the trigger by himself, he could very well have done it in self-defense.  




> There is evidence to support Zimmerman's rightful action and there is evidence to support Martin's also, that night.


We shall see if Martin's camp can produce any real evidence.  We shall see.  So far what has been produced has been a lot of hate and rush-to-judgement.  Spike Lee texting the Zimmerman's home address.  Obama standing up for Martin.  The media distorting everything.




> The process of law stepped in and screwed up! That's obvious! Why the hell has it all come to this otherwise?


You're just saying that because the police believed Zimmerman acted in self-defense and that upsets you.  The police don't charge people if they believe they acted in self-defense.  

Were the cops wrong not to charge Zimmerman?  I don't know for certain.  But I do know this: with people like you and all the others (including, in his own way, President Obama) screaming for Zimmerman's scalp, I doubt Zimmerman will get a fair trial.  




> The matter will not go un-noticed, nor be swept under the carpet. It's gonna shake the tree, man, it's gonna shake the tree.


Yeah, maybe just the way the O.J. Simpson trial 'shook the tree'.  In a ridiculously reverse-racist way.

----------


## ENT

^gayinthailand,
Your histrionic rant cuts no cheese.

Your obviously white racist stance glows in the dark.

*{Quote you}* "You jumped on the 'racist-honky-murdered-the-innocent-sweet-black-boy' bandwagon a long time ago."

A false accusation, as I did not refer to either a black or a rhite man in the case, only as "Martin" or "Zimmerman".
*You're a liar.*

*{Quote you}*"Your distortions know no bounds! "Stalked" is a ridiculous word to use here. Hyperbole as usual coming from Ent. And Zimmerman "wanted to kill the youth" is more out-of-context BS coming from Ent."
But if it can be shown that Zimmerman set out that night to murder someone in cold blood and did murder someone in cold blood, then of course that is wrong and deserves punishment.

*Zimmerman confesses,* *Prosecutors even have Zimmerman’s confession that he intended to kill Martin*. 
Reference here.
Continue reading on Examiner.com Three problems with George Zimmerman’s self-defense claims - National Political Buzz | Examiner.com Three problems with George Zimmerman

*Quote:
Originally Posted by ENT* 
The process of law stepped in and screwed up! That's obvious! Why the hell has it all come to this otherwise?

*You say*,"You're just saying that because the police believed Zimmerman acted in self-defense and that upsets you. The police don't charge people if they believe they acted in self-defense." 

*Sanford Police Originally Wanted To Charge Zimmerman*

SANFORD (CBSMiami) – New information now contradicts Sanford police chief’s initial claims that there wasn’t enough probable cause to arrest George Zimmerman in the murder of 17-year old Trayvon Martin.

Angela Corey, a special prosecutor assigned to case by Gov. Rick Scott, told CBS4 news partner The Miami Herald that early in the investigation* police requested an arrest warrant from the Seminole County State Attorney’s Office*.

*An incident report on the shooting classified it as “homicide/negligent manslaughter.*”

Corey said police did file a capias (a request that charges be filed) with the State Attorney’s Office.

http://independentvoter.newsvine.com...arge-zimmerman


Finally, of course this case is gonna shake the tree, and all the rotten apples are gonna fall first.

Your futile racist arguments aren't worth a pinch of goat shit.

Further, it is almost unbelievable how really stupid you are.

----------


## guyinthailand

Alas, you failed (as usual) to convincingly refute anything I said in my previous post.  And, as usual, when you get all flustered like this you start calling me names.

I all along have maintained that if Zimmerman wrongfully killed Martin then Zimmerman should be punished.

You, however, have always slanted everything you've posted to try and show Zimmerman wasn't justified in shooting Martin, even though everything is unclear at the moment except, well, words from the guy you represent: "Pls shoot da M*#therF*#ker dat lied 2 U!"

How does it feel, Ent, to be on the same  "racist-honky-murdered-the-innocent-sweet-black-boy" bandwagon as Spike Lee, Obama, Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson?  Ya'll havin' a good 'ol time up there as you string up the hanging noose?

----------


## ENT

I have reported, with supporting reference, all that is currently available in the media.

You, as a white, gun and knife carrying bigot, have done all you can to turn the issue into a racial conflict.

These two facts are evident throughout the whole thread.

Further, your desperate attempts to find any method available to interpret US law to promote your own paranoid agenda in life have made a total fool of yourself.

Now, take a pill, a good cup of tea, and a  little nap and you'll feel a lot better, boy.

----------


## guyinthailand

Your above post is typical of your other posts: inflammatory, inaccurate and misleading.

That's funny: I thought it was Ent, Spike Lee, Obama, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and the media who have turned it into a racial issue.  I myself am 'equal opportunity' when it comes to self-defense: white or black doesn't matter if the person is trying to harm me.  I have consistently said on this forum that I hope Zimmerman is punished if he is found guilty of having wrongfully taken a life.  You, on the other hand, have consistently distorted things to suit your reverse-racist 'blame the white boy' agenda. 




> Further, your desperate attempts to find any method available to interpret US law to promote your own paranoid agenda in life have made a total fool of yourself.



Ent, I along with Ayoob taught you the law as it relates to lethal force.  I didn't 'interpret it'. Show some respect for your teachers!  And now don't you see that it is you who is making a fool of yourself by making the outrageous claims in your post above?  

One of the great things about Teakdoor is people can read all your earlier posts and see the succession of errors you make and the fallacious 'thinking' you employ.

It's all there in the record.

----------


## ENT

Good.  ::chitown::

----------


## guyinthailand

By Dylan Stableford | The Lookout
april 3, 2012


A partially redacted police report  detailing the initial investigation in the Feb. 26 shooting death of  Trayvon Martin has surfaced.

Reuters reporter Matthew Keys first posted scanned copies of the report to his Twitter account. As the Chicago Tribune noted, the report contains details that conflict with several rumors surrounding the case.

The report states that George  Zimmerman's gun "was placed into evidence" and not returned to him, and  the scene of the shooting was secured with crime scene tape. This  directly conflicts with statements made by civil rights activists,  including Rev. Jesse Jackson, who had claimed the Sanford, Fla., police  department "didn't even bother to put yellow tape around the murder  scene when he died*—*that's how much the police did to find out what happened to this young boy."
*[ SEE THE POLICE REPORT ]*

After officers discovered Martin's body, the report states that they unsuccessfully attempted to revive him.

According to the report, Sanford  police spent more than seven hours at the scene. They interviewed six  witnesses, whose names were redacted from the report. The partial report  contains information from the first two officers to arrive at the  scene.

The first to arrive was officer Timothy Smith. From Smith's report: "While I was in such close contact  with Zimmerman, *I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and  was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the  ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of his head."*
 "Zimmerman was placed in the rear  of my police vehicle and was given first aid by the SFD. While the SF  was attending to Zimmerman, 


*I overheard him state, 'I was yelling for  someone to help me, but no one would help me.'* At no point did I  question Zimmerman about the incident that had taken place."From officer Ricardo Ayala, the second to arrive:"I attempted to get a response  from the black male, but was met with negative results. At that time,  Sgt. Raimondo arrived and attempted to get a pulse from the black male  but none was found. At that time, Sgt. Raimondo and I turned the black  male over and began CPR. Sgt. Raimondo did breaths and I did chest  compressions."
 "Sgt. McCoy arrived and relieved  me continuing compressions. Sanford Fire Rescue arrived on scene and  attempted to revive the subject but could not. Paramedic Brady  pronounced the subject deceased at 1930 hours."

"The scene was then secured with  crime scene tape by Ofc. Mead and Ofc. Wagner. Ofc. Robertson began a  crime scene contamination log. Lt. Taylor arrived on scene and notified  dispatch to have Major Crimes responds to the scene."

 "Ofc. Mead and Ofc. Wagner were  able to make contact with neighbors in the area. They were able to  obtain statements from all witnesses on scene."
 "The scene was turned over to SPD Major Crimes."

----------


## ENT

> Your above post is typical of your other posts: inflammatory, inaccurate and misleading.
> 
> That's funny: I thought it was Ent, Spike Lee, Obama, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and the media who have turned it into a racial issue.  I myself am 'equal opportunity' when it comes to self-defense: white or black doesn't matter if the person is trying to harm me.  I have consistently said on this forum that I hope Zimmerman is punished if he is found guilty of having wrongfully taken a life.  You, on the other hand, have consistently distorted things to suit your reverse-racist 'blame the white boy' agenda. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Funny boy. 
You are _again_ proving what a racist bigot and a liar you are in _this_ post.

What's even funnier is that you claim that you and Ayoob _taught_ me something about the law!    :rofl: 

_Then_ you demand that I show respect to you and your hero Ayoob as my teachers!
You two are no more my teachers than Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck, *you bumptious, egotistical, wannabe lawyer pest*!

 :smiley laughing:

----------


## guyinthailand

The more worked up you get, Ent, the more hysterical you become calling me names and flinging venom out your ignorant snout.  You sound just like Spike Lee and Jesse Jackson: calling me racist just because I question their (racist) version of events which says, in effect, Zimmerman killed Martin just because he was black.  The real racists here are you, Jesse, and Spike precisely because you ASSUMED Zimmerman was racist, rather than looking at the facts.  

By the way, why your total SILENCE on the following?  Have you forgotten your earlier posts in which you tell everyone that the all-knowing ENT just knew Zimmerman hadn't been injured and therefore it just couldn't have been self-defense. 

_"The first to arrive was officer Timothy Smith. From Smith's report: "While I was in such close contact  with Zimmerman, I  could observe that his back appeared to be wet and  was covered in  grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the  ground. Zimmerman  was also bleeding from the nose and back of his head."
 "Zimmerman was placed in the rear  of my police vehicle and was given  first aid by the SFD. While the SF  was attending to Zimmerman, 


"I overheard him state, 'I was yelling for  someone to help me, but no one would help me.' At no point did I  question Zimmerman about the incident that had taken place."_

----------


## ENT

The above reference to grass stains and Zimmerman's minor injuries have already been mentioned and remain unrefuted.

Zimmerman's claims to be the voice screaming for help have been dismissed by several US voice profilers engaged to analise the 9/11 tapes of that night.

----------


## guyinthailand

> The above reference to grass stains and Zimmerman's minor injuries have already been mentioned and remain unrefuted.
> 
> Zimmerman's claims to be the voice screaming for help have been dismissed by several US voice profilers engaged to analise the 9/11 tapes of that night.



Zimmerman never said his voice was THE voice heard on the tape.  All that the police officer said Zimmerman said is that he screamed for help. Quit distorting things, Ent. 

 Besides, as I've told you half a dozen times already, it doesn't matter if Martin was screaming for help.  What matters is if a jury believes Zimmerman when he says Martin was attacking him.

"Minor" injuries? Let's pound your head on the ground, smash your nose and make both head and nose bleed all the while trying to kill you and then tell you that your injuries are minor.

----------


## ENT

I've distorted nothing.

Your fascination with fantasies of violence are apparently quite disturbing.

Calm down, silly boy.

----------


## guyinthailand

Oh then you're saying you don't want your head pounded on the ground and your nose smashed, both made bloody?  And then have someone tell you that your injuries are minor?

yes?

Or no?

Just answer the question, Ent.

And, p.s., it's not a violent fantasy you silly Spike-wannabe, merely a reasonable rhetorical question disproving your statement that Zimmerman's injuries were 'minor'.  I call reader's attention to Ent's earlier posts in which he uses veiled threats of violence towards me.  Now there's some violent fantasy for you!

----------


## ENT

Ooooh, the wannabe law man wants an answer! Oh hell,.... :Smile: 

A hypothetical question irrelevant to the topic.

Zimmerman's false claims and minor injuries are all being reviewed

How about that, dumbo?

----------


## Boon Mee

Narrative -destroying or what?:

QUOTE OF THE DAY.   Do you know who waited for the church-goers to get out of church so  that he could hand them flyers in an attempt to organize the black  community against this horrible miscarriage of justice? Do you know who  helped organize the City Hall meeting on January 8, 2011 at Sanford City  Hall??

 That person was GEORGE ZIMMERMAN.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Ooooh, the wannabe law man wants an answer! Oh hell,....
> 
> A hypothetical question irrelevant to the topic.
> 
> Zimmerman's false claims and minor injuries are all being reviewed
> 
> How about that, dumbo?


"irrelevant to the topic". Hell, man, it was you who raised this 'topic', you who said the injuries are minor and now it is you who are too chickenshit to have his head bashed on the ground and nose smashed in to prove your point about 'minor' injuries. Jeesh, you're too chickenshit even to answer the question!

Your saying his claims are false prove you are delusional because you or I cannot know whether they are true or false.

This post of Ent's proves beyond a doubt that he is out of touch with reality.

Do you know the name they give to people out of touch with reality, Ent?

----------


## sabang

This thing is dragging out, and still no announcement that Zimmerman will have to account for his actions before a Court of Law. Well, they say the wheels of justice turn slowly- but given the racial sensitivity this whole media fiasco has exposed, I hope it doesn't take too long. The Watts riots spring to mind.

----------


## Thaihome

> ... The tragedy is that this stupid Florida law allowed Zimmerman to go free without collecting evidence or arresting him as part of a proper investigation.


I believe the police report shows the scene was secured and evidence was collected.

_"The scene was then secured with crime scene tape by Ofc. Mead and Ofc. Wagner. Ofc. Robertson began a crime scene contamination log. Lt. Taylor arrived on scene and notified dispatch to have Major Crimes responds to the scene."
_
_Zimmerman was handcuffed and transported to the station where he was questioned for several hours. The watch commander made the decison there was not evidence on hand to arrest Zimmerman at that time and he was allowed to go home._ 

_Normally a person is arrested as the result of an investigation not as part of it._
_TH

_

----------


## guyinthailand

*Quote of the Day: Narrative Destroying Edition*

                                               Posted on April 3, 2012 by Dan Zimmerman 

_“You will recall the incident of the beating of the black homeless  man Sherman Ware on December 4, 2010 by the son of a Sanford police  officer. The beating sparked outrage in the community but there were  very few that stepped up to do anything about it. I would presume the  inaction was because of the fact that he was homeless not because he was  black. Do you know the individual who stepped up when no one else in  the black community would? Do you know who spent tireless hours putting  flyers on the cars of persons parked in the churches of the black  community? Do you know who waited for the church-goers to get out of  church so that he could hand them flyers in an attempt to organize the  black community against this horrible miscarriage of justice? Do you  know who helped organize the City Hall meeting on January 8, 2011 at  Sanford City Hall?? That person was GEORGE ZIMMERMAN.”_ – from a letter to Turner Clayton of the Seminole County NAACP written by “a concerned Zimmerman family member”

----------


## sabang

The issue of whether Zimmerman is guilty of a crime or not is in no way addressed by competing agenda led media allegations of racism or non-racism. Whether he is in fact racist or not, the potential crime here is the same- unless it were to be tried under some 'Hate Crime' scenario, which I find both highly unlikely and highly inflammatory.

----------


## robuzo

^The racism angle shouldn't matter, the potential crime is the thing. Nevertheless, given the way a large swath of society (not to mention a dismaying number of posters on TD) are leaping to Zimmerman's defense and running down the dead lad, it isn't too hard to understand why racism might look like a factor.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> Ooooh, the wannabe law man wants an answer! Oh hell,....
> 
> A hypothetical question irrelevant to the topic.
> 
> Zimmerman's false claims and minor injuries are all being reviewed
> 
> ...




Hypothetical ifs and buts are irrelevant to the topic, little boy.

My statement that Zimmerman's_ false_ claims are being investigated, along with his more valid ones, of course, still stands.

The names they give to people that are out of touch with reality like "loopy in lalaland" and "guy in Thailand" are quite appropriate, IMO.

----------


## Boon Mee

*Black Teens Beat 50 Year-Old White Man With Hammer Near Sanford, FL Media Silent*

*Wheres the outrage? Where are the protesters? Where are Al and Jesse?*


**


Hammer time. Suspects Julius Bender, and Yahaziel Israel beat the victim  with a hammer then dragged him from his car and beat him some more. WFTV

----------


## guyinthailand

> ^The racism angle shouldn't matter, the potential crime is the thing. Nevertheless, given the way a large swath of society (not to mention a dismaying number of posters on TD) are leaping to Zimmerman's defense and running down the dead lad, it isn't too hard to understand why racism might look like a factor.


Zimmerman needs defending precisely because he has automatically been assumed to have been racist himself and to have killed Martin because Martin was black.

The true racists here are those who have already concluded Zimmerman was racist.  

The facts may show he was in fact racist.  But so far, nothing---nothing--indicates that.  In fact, the opposite: that he was the opposite of racist.  

But the gangbanger who texted "pls shoot da mF*#ker who lied 2 U"---we shall see if he turns out to be like Spike Lee and others who automatically---automatically--blame the white person. (which IS racist).

----------


## ENT

*Latest developments* *add more grist to the mill*, as controversy swirls over the police mis-handling of the investigation into the Trayvon Martintin case, and who was involved..

SANFORD -- 
The lawyers for Trayvon Martin's family want the US Justice Dept. to investigate the state attorney's office with relation to the case.
Attorneys sent a letter the Dept. of Justice asking for an investigation into the actions of the state attorney's office the night Trayvon Martin was shot and killed by George Zimmerman, who claimed self-defense for the shooting.

The letter says that on the night of the shooting, State Attorney Norm Wolfinger and Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee met and chose to overrule the lead homicide investigator, who said that Zimmerman should be arrested for manslaughter.

The letter claims the investigator filed an affidavit saying that he did not find Zimmerman's statements regarding the shooting to be credible. The letter also says that Zimmerman's family members were present at the police department when Wolfinger and Lee met regarding the case.

The attorneys want to know why Wolfinger and Lee made that decision.

Sanford Police Dept. has said that the state attorney's office told them they could not arrest Zimmerman because of his self-defense claims based on Florida's Stand Your Ground law.

State Attorney Norm Wolfinger issued the following statement in response to the letter:

"I am outraged by the outright lies contained in the letter by Benjamin Crump to Deputy Assistant Attorney General Roy Austin dated April 2, 2012.  I encourage the Justice Department to investigate and document that no such meeting or communication occurred. I have been encouraging those spreading the irresponsible rhetoric to stop and allow State Attorney Angela Corey to complete her work.  Another falsehood distributed to the media does nothing to forward that process."

Trayvon Martin: Family wants state attorney investigated

The tree is starting to get a good shaking, allright, rock-a-bye-baby!

----------


## guyinthailand

> *Black Teens Beat 50 Year-Old White Man With Hammer Near Sanford, FL Media Silent*
> 
> *Wheres the outrage? Where are the protesters? Where are Al and Jesse?*
> 
> 
> **
> 
> 
> Hammer time. Suspects Julius Bender, and Yahaziel Israel beat the victim  with a hammer then dragged him from his car and beat him some more. WFTV


*"Wheres the outrage? Where are the protesters? Where are Al and Jesse?"*
---------------------

Where's Ent?

----------


## guyinthailand

> Do you know the name they give to people out of touch with reality, Ent?





> "loopy in lalaland"


Nope, Ent, wrong answer.

Wanna try again?

----------


## sabang

What has an assault case got to do with this?  :Confused: 
The alleged perpetrators have been arrested, and will face justice.
Something we are still waiting for with the trayvon martin slaying.

----------


## ENT

*Gunman George Zimmerman hires a new attorney in Trayvon Martin case*

SEMINOLE COUNTY, Fla. — Gunman George Zimmerman has hired a new defense attorney out of Maitland in the case of slain teen Trayvon Martin.
WFTV learned that Hal Uhrig has joined attorney, Craig Sonner, who was preparing Zimmerman's defense. 
Sanford Chief Bill Lee placed himself on paid leave amid questions about why he didn't arrest Zimmerman for shooting and killing 17-year-old Martin.
That means he's collecting $102,000 a year to do nothing, and the city is paying a firm about $20,000 to find an interim chief to do his job.

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/...ttorney/nMJTN/

----------


## guyinthailand

> What has an assault case got to do with this? 
> The alleged perpetrators have been arrested, and will face justice.
> Something we are still waiting for with the trayvon martin slaying.


I must have missed the part about these two guys using the hammer in self-defense.

----------


## guyinthailand

> *Latest developments* *add more grist to the mill*, as controversy swirls ove 
> 
> Trayvon Martin: Family wants state attorney investigated
> 
> The tree is starting to get a good shaking, allright, rock-a-bye-baby!


Yawn, big yawn.  

Of course Martin's family will be suing them.  Martin's family is going to be suing anybody they can.  These kinds of lawsuits will become routine.

----------


## ENT

You obviously have not read the whole article posted.

----------


## guyinthailand

> My statement that Zimmerman's_ false_ claims are being investigated, along with his more valid ones, of course, still stands.


And which 'false claims' are you privvy to, Ent?  Tell us, so we can have you on record.  

And which are his 'valid claims'?

----------


## guyinthailand

> You obviously have not read the whole article posted.


I did read it.  It's irrelevant to what really happened that night.  It proves or disproves nothing. 

Of course she will file a lawsuit. * What do you expect from the mom who wants to trademark slogans for crass personal gain stemming from a tragic incident involving the death of her son?*

----------


## ENT

Read the rest of it.

----------


## guyinthailand

Read it.  Yawn.  But I'm willing to listen to what you think is important about it.

----------


## ENT

^Did you read State Attorney Wolfinger's response?
What do you make of that?

*Blackout on evidence*
The surveillance video may be the last piece of evidence the public sees in the Trayvon Martin case for some time.
The state prosecutor now handling the case, Angela Corey, has called for a "news blackout" on any further evidence.

Corey said recent leaks of information should not have been made public, and her office will no longer answer questions about the Trayvon Marin case until her investigation is over.

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news..._martin_opini/

----------


## guyinthailand

The 'blackout on evidence' doesn't strike me as earth-shattering.  Perhaps it will turn out to be.

However, this part from the link you provide is interesting:

_But officials confirmed paramedics treated Zimmerman at the scene of the shooting before police took him in for questioning.
_ 
_As for his brother, he said he stands by George's story:
_ 
_"I'm not at liberty to say that  particular piece of information about the video, or how he thinks his  appearance may or may not be. What I think I see is a swollen nose. Now,  I'm not a physician. You're not a physician. A lot of these injuries  take time, 24 hours to 36 hours, to show the bruising. Sometimes the  bone breaks and the blood is swallowed.

 "We're confident the medical records are going to explain all of  George's medical history, both how he was treated at the scene and how  he was not."
_ 
_Robert Zimmerman Jr. also said his brother has been suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder since the shooting._
_He described George as the kind of neighbor everyone would want to have, because he helped everyone.
_ 
_Robert admitted he has also received death threats. Because he looks like his brother, he said he has feared for his own life._

----------


## guyinthailand

I think what would interest readers more would be your filling us in on your claim to know what the valid vs false claims are. 




> My statement that Zimmerman's_ false_ claims are being investigated, along with his more valid ones, of course, still stands.


And which 'false claims' are you privvy to, Ent?  Tell us, so we can have you on record.  

And which are his 'valid claims'?

----------


## ENT

I neither know nor claimed to know which of his claims are valid or not.
Any conjecture is simply that.
So don't be so pathetically stupid.

----------


## guyinthailand

> I neither know nor claimed to know which of his claims are valid or not.  Any conjecture is simply that.  So don't be so pathetically stupid.




Ent, the fact that you don't seem to remember your 'false & valid'  quote below which was made just a short while ago is troubling, don't  you think?




> My statement that Zimmerman's_ false_ claims are being investigated, along with his more valid ones, of course, still stands.



*Which false claims were you referring to, Ent? 

Which 'more valid ones' were you referring to, Ent? * 

Come on, tell us.

----------


## guyinthailand

*George Zimmerman Head Wounds in Technicolor*

April 2, 2012

By Maggie

George  Zimmerman’s head wounds below, in technicolor. Remember the  police  officer who walked behind Zimmerman after he got of the police car? He  took Zimmerman’s left arm as he stepped to Zimmerman’s back and he  peered up at the back of Zimmerman’s head. 

The video made it obvious  there was something to look at, but no one talked about it, gave it any  credence. The New Black Panthers continued to hawk their $1.00 donations  for a bounty on the head that was obviously bashed into something more  than once. Once is enough. ABC released the original video we saw that  seemed to show no injury to Zimmerman. Today they’ve released the photo  below. Vile.

Breitbart:By Friday March 30, just two days after  ABC published its scoop, MSNBC ran a story contradicting ABC and showing  evidence of an injury on Zimmerman’s head.

Now, five days after their big scoop, ABC has posted new video under  the headline “George Zimmerman: Enhanced Video Shows Injury.” As you’ll  see, ABC makes no mention of the fact that their previous story was  wrong. And thus far, ABC does not appear to have published a print  version of the story. Keep in mind that the claim Zimmerman was injured  was widely known before ABC posted the video. In other words, they knew  what they should be looking for in the clip. And yet it seems they were  unable to find it for five days, even though other media outlets pointed  it out within 48 hours.

At this point, ABC needs to explain why it took them  until today to correct the record. Enhancing 4-5 minutes of video is not  a five day job. This is one of several missteps by major media in this  case. Earlier, NBC deliberately miscut George Zimmerman’s 911 call in a way that insinuated George Zimmerman was profiling Trayvon Martin because he was black.

NBC has now launched an internal investigation to find  out how the botched audio wound up on “The Today Show.” Notice that in  both instances the initial media error works against Zimmerman.Vile.


Related and Background:
NBC Alters 911 Call to Show Racial Slur and Incite Racism Against White-Hispanic George Zimmerman
George Zimmerman’s Neighborhood Saw Large Bumpy Bandages on Zimmerman’s Head
Posted by Maggie @ Maggie’s Notebook


George Zimmerman Head Wounds in Technicolor | Maggie's Notebook

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> I neither know nor claimed to know which of his claims are valid or not.  Any conjecture is simply that.  So don't be so pathetically stupid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ent, the fact that you don't seem to remember your 'false & valid'  quote below which was made just a short while ago is troubling, don't  you think?
> ...


Can't you read,?

----------


## guyinthailand

> Originally Posted by guyinthailand
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by ENT
> ...



I can read that you made statements that are unfounded and that you can't provide any evidence for.

----------


## ENT

Some of Zimmerman's reported statements are in conflict with other evidences reported so far about the shooting.
Both Zimmerman's father, brother and two family friends have also made conflicting statements about what Zimmerman purportedly told them about the shooting and hat led up to it.
Zimmerman made a statement to the police the night that he was arrested. Neither I nor any other member of thye public know what exactly he said. 

Reported police statements on the matter are also inconsistent with reported events and other evidence.

All claims and evidences are now being assessed to determine their veracity, and to determine if there is sufficient grounds for Zimmerman to be charged and brought to trial.
This is because neither Zimmerman's claims nor any other claims match up to give a clear picture of the events.
Someone's telling lies about the matter.

I'll repeat what I said;
My statement that *Zimmerman's false claims are being investigated, along with his more valid ones,* of course, still stands.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Some of Zimmerman's reported statements are in conflict with other evidences reported so far about the shooting.
> Both Zimmerman's father, brother and two family friends have also made conflicting statements about what Zimmerman purportedly told them about the shooting and hat led up to it.
> Zimmerman made a statement to the police the night that he was arrested. Neither I nor any other member of thye public know what exactly he said. 
> 
> Reported police statements on the matter are also inconsistent with reported events and other evidence.
> 
> All claims and evidences are now being assessed to determine their veracity, and to determine if there is sufficient grounds for Zimmerman to be charged and brought to trial.
> This is because neither Zimmerman's claims nor any other claims match up to give a clear picture of the events.
> Someone's telling lies about the matter.
> ...


*
His statements haven't been shown to be FALSE.*  They _may_ be conflicting, but they  have not so far been shown to be false._ 

You do understand the difference between the words 'false' and 'conflicting', right?_  There are always conflicting statements--6 different witnesses then 6 different versions.

 So you are blowing smoke out your ass when you repeat, over and over, this 'false claims' nonsense.  And all your talk of 'statements conflicting with other evidence': you didn't give one single solitary example of that, either--not that some conflicts would be a big deal, but, still, you failed utterly to provide one example. 

*Your entire post above is just a bunch of innuendo and generalizations and blahblahblah.
* 
You're still distorting things to fit your agenda of lynching Zimmerman.  You've already made up your mind he's guilty.

----------


## ENT

In conflicting statements the implication is that one or more of them are inaccurate, sufficient to create conflict, shit for brains.

----------


## guyinthailand

> In conflicting statements the implication is that one  or more of them are inaccurate, sufficient to create conflict, shit for  brains.



You said Zimmerman made '*false* claims'. 
*
 You couldn't back that statement up with any proof whatsoever.*
None
            ........Nada
                         ...................Zilch

Your 'ideas' on this shooting have, over and over again, been shown to be empty of logic, or consistency.  Every idiotic thing you've posted I've shot down, bam, *and now you're getting really 'testy'.*

empty. Yet you still, like a robot with a broken hard drive, make the  same nonsensical statements over and over again, as if that will make  them right.

*What do you think that says about your brains, Ent?*  Any ideas?  

(Ent, who is trying his best to string 'ol Zimmerman high up in that thar tree)

the last words Zimmerman would hear if you were sheriff:

_"False Claims, it's your time to die!"_

----------


## Kwang

Ooh, it's come down to insults now. If you two were in a bar, there would be a baying crowd forming now. 
Keep it up though, I'm enjoying this :Smile:

----------


## ENT

:smiley laughing:

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> In conflicting statements the implication is that one  or more of them are inaccurate, sufficient to create conflict, shit for  brains.
> 
> 
> 
> You said Zimmerman made '*false* claims'. 
> ]


Where did I say that, dumbo?

----------


## guyinthailand

first time post 520 here it is, and many other posts  after that.

 You need to get checked for Alzheimer's (I'm serious).  The fact that you don't remember this important thing we've been discussing needs to get checked out.




> Zimmerman's false claims and minor injuries are all being reviewed
> 
> How about that, dumbo?


and do you remember being asked to get smashed in the nose and have your head pounded on the ground to prove your 'minor injuries' theory?

----------


## ENT

> first time post 520 here it is, and many other posts  after that.
> 
>  You need to get checked for Alzheimer's (I'm serious).  The fact that you don't remember this important thing we've been discussing needs to get checked out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*You have obviously been drinking, or you're on some bad drugs or both.*


Zimmerman's false claims and minor injuries are all being reviewed, is correct.
He apparently admitted to shooting Martin twice, but only one gunshot wound was reported.

He also claimed that Martin said "Are you looking for trouble", or similar, but Martin's girl friend's evidence totally refutes that.
Her cell phone will also have been collected as evidence by now.

Zimmerman also reportedly said that he was being repeatedly pounded in the face and that his head was also repeatedly pounded into the concrete, the assault lasting for about a minute, also a physical impossibilty.

*{Quote you}*"and do you remember being asked to get smashed in the nose and have your head pounded on the ground to prove your 'minor injuries' theory?"

You are stark raving mad if you believe that I said that, go find that line, go look up your arse, it might be there.

*You are as loopy as a loon, crazy as a 'coon. Totally lost.*

*Along with** your great master and teacher, the one who inspires your bullshit so much, Massad Ayoob, the bullshitter.*
You two were made for each other, you ought to get a room together, soon.

Here below are a few excerpts from Shawn Dodson's

*Reply to Massad Ayoob's Kooky Screed*

My first experience with Massad Ayoob's writings, that I can recall, was in 1984, when I attended basic law enforcement training.  My instructors handed out photocopies of a three-part article he'd written about the California Highway Patrol's Newhall Massacre, which had been published in Police Product News.  Ayoob masterfully authored a gripping account, and the hook was set.  I found Ayoob's articles and books informative, instructive, and entertaining.

In the 1990s, I began my study of wound ballistics, and it was here where I discovered *troubling issues with Ayoob’s credibility,* specifically in articles that dealt with *shooting incident reports and “stopping power.*”  My distrust grew as I encountered questionable claims that I had reason to believe were untrue.  



*“I testified.  The court listened.”5*
As documented in Hansen v. Webster (p. 3), Ayoob never testified in “court.”  *Indeed a “court” never heard his testimony.*
In June 1980, Ayoob testified, as an expert witness for complainant Christine A. Hansen, against the FBI, in an administrative hearing conducted by a Complaints Examiner for the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.

ONE of the items claimed, which Ayoob supported, was that the FBI issue, medium-frame Smith & Wesson revolver was inappropriate for female agents because it was designed to fit the hand of an average male.  *FBI lawyer John Hall cross-examined Ayoob.*  Hall blind-sided Ayoob with a magazine article that Ayoob recently authored, in which he recommended the K-frame Smith & Wesson revolver as the ideal weapon for women.  This is the very gun Ayoob had just testified was unsuitable for women!  *Hall instructed Ayoob to read aloud from his own article that contradicted his earlier expert testimony.  Ayoob reluctantly complied in a subdued and* *hushed voice.*

*Ayoob is a master of self promotion - never overly constrained by consistency or fact.*  The FBI’s experience clearly proved the problem was not the fit of the gun, as Ayoob dishonestly hypothesized in his embellished “court” testimony; instead the problem was the "hard kicking" ammo he truthfully described in Guns magazine several months earlier.

*Stuck on Stupid: Ayoob and the FBI-Miami Shootout*
*Ayoob is offended by falsehood, which is how I describe his "FBI Miami Shootout"* reports.4, 7  It appears in two places, the title and conclusion.  Considering that he believes his only error – HIS ONLY ERROR – is to misspell Gilbert Orrantia's surname, I doubt he'd accept any word that suggests the slightest hint of inaccuracy.  His complaint, however, has not fallen on deaf ears.
*Ayoob compelled me to reconsider falsehood, and I concede it might be inappropriate.  I believe bullshit is more fitting
*

*Unfortunately for Ayoob, his phony moral condemnation is exposed by the very lawmen he tries to selfishly exploit.*  McNeill and Mireles personally reviewed Forensic Analysis; both endorse the report that Ayoob dismisses as “a speculative account.” Their written statements appear in Appendix III.  McNeill testifies (p. 112):      

*Despite a claim to have carefully studied Forensic Analysis, Ayoob seems oblivious to its content.*  In addition, it appears he's attempting to imply that he had privileged access to "official FBI materials."  If this is indeed the case, then why do FBI records disagree with his reports, as documented below?

*Anyone seeking Ayoob's expert testimony is well advised that he can be easily discredited by his history of contradictions and deceitful arguments* as exemplified in Hansen and the well documented evidence presented herein.

*All the above characteristics also fit you to a "T", guyinthailand*

You're such a perfect clone of Ayoob, your teacher, so similar in style, that you must have lived right up his arse. :cmn: 

Like to read more?
I hope everybody does to expose such *frauds* as *Massad Ayoob* and *guyinthailand.* 

Massad Ayoob, Shawn Dodson, Reply to Ayoob's Kooky Screed



 :kma:

----------


## ENT

PS.
I don't believe Zimmerman's version of events in the least.

----------


## GRUMPY

I don't believe NBC.

----------


## Kwang

> I don't believe NBC.


NBC ? No black cnut ??

----------


## guyinthailand

> [
> *{Quote you}*"and do you remember being asked to get smashed in the nose and have your head pounded on the ground to prove your 'minor injuries' theory?"





> You are stark raving mad if you believe that I said that, go find that line, go look up your arse, it might be there.


 


> He apparently admitted to shooting Martin twice, but only one gunshot wound was reported.  He also claimed that Martin said "Are you looking for trouble", or similar, but Martin's girl friend's evidence totally refutes that.  Zimmerman also reportedly said that he was being repeatedly pounded in the face and that his head was also repeatedly pounded into the concrete, the assault lasting for about a minute, also a physical impossibilty.
> 
> 
> My first experience with Massad Ayoob's writings, 
> 
> In the 1990s, I began my study of wound ballistics, and it was here where I discovered *troubling issues with Ayoob’s credibility,* specifically in articles that dealt with *shooting incident reports and “stopping power.*”


Did you get checked for Alzheimer's yet, Ent?  Amazing you couldn't remember making your 'false claims' statement about 5 minutes before you asked me "When did I ever make that statement?", you asked.

You still can't provide *one proof* of the FALSE CLAIMS you say Zimmerman made.  All you can yak about is stuff like the following: "reportedly" "his girlfriend said" "someone heard" “apparently admitted”.

*You're still yakking about conflicting testimony but you crazily think this somehow shows your 'false claims' statement was right.*   Do you know what name psychiatrists have for those who can’t see reality clearly, Ent?

And you also can’t remember that it was I—me, moi—who asked you if you wanted to get *smashed in the nose and have your head pounded* on the ground so you could prove your statement that Zimmerman’s injuries were “minor” (your words, ‘minor’).   I’m starting to wonder if having your head pounded on the ground might have the additional benefit of knocking some sense into you!   Or maybe somehow, through some miracle, through repeated blows to the head, counteract your Alzheimer’s.  At the very least you would shut up about Zimmerman’s injuries being “minor” when you know no such thing.*  Come on, big man, prove to us his injuries were minor* by having your head pounded and your nose punched!

*And, oooh, you found someone who questions Ayoob on specifics of an FBI shootout in Florida in 1986?*  And you think this silly article somehow calls into question Ayoob’s expertise in the legal aspects of deadly force?   And the person who wrote the piece you post wrote it because Ayoob’s ideas on ballistics conflict with his.  Ooooh.  Ya' got me, Ent.  I'm practically crushed with your abilities to refute the man Ayoob.  Oooh.  Ouch.  How long did it take you to find that ONE thing on the internet where someone was 'complaining' about Ayoob about ballistics, of all things.  In a separate post below I post Ayoob’s response to Dodson, wherein Ayoob calls Dodson “FOS” and “deserving of outright contempt”.  Ent’s posting this nonsense demonstrates what a fool Ent is.

*Ayoob on the Judicious Use of Deadly Force is a worldwide authority, period.  Ain’t nothing you can say or show that disproves that.* 

Meanwhile, you still continue to try and smear Zimmerman with your 'false claims' bullshit.  *Go ahead, Ent, get your hanging noose ready*.  I know you got a hard on to watch Zimmerman fall through the trap door.

*Once again, I’ve shot down all the nonsense you post.*

----------


## S Landreth

interesting article,..........

Does ABC video show Zimmerman told the truth?

We've all been litigating this entire case in the public, and people have been getting important facts wrong. :  US Politics | AMERICAblog News: Does ABC video show Zimmerman told the truth?

----------


## guyinthailand

*Massad Ayoob in his own words

Response to Dodson*
*The prolific gunwriter/instructor/lecturer addresses an old antagonist*
This was initially published on *TGZ* Forum, no longer operational.

Hey, folks, Mas Ayoob here. I promised some weeks ago to get more details on the _Hansen_ case and get back to you. Sorry it's taken so long.

Watching this thread unfold. I've communicated with *SeanMac45*, who began the thread; he has retracted his negative comments and graciously apologized. I respectfully accept that apology, and consider the matter closed. My door is always open to him for anything he wishes to discuss or clarify. *SeanMac45* is a man.

Dean Speir commented that one person on the thread disliked me, with reason. I inquired about that, and learned that I had unintentionally ignored a good man who had done good service to one of our people. I'm doing what I can to make that right.

*And then, there is Shawn Dodson.*

Mr. Dodson claims that I exaggerated or lied about my involvement in the _Christine Hansen, et al v. FBI_ case as regarded FBI firearms training and its disparate impact on female agents, back in 1980. He claims that I was impeached, had nothing to do with the outcome, and that the outcome was settled rather than decided. He cites a 1986 decision relevant to other discrimination claims as his proof.

*Mr. Dodson is FOS.*

Christine Hansen's battle with the FBI was a long chain of legal events. The firearms portion was decided early, circa 1980 and '81. Dodson knows or should know this. He cites my mention of the case in my book "*StressFire*." He knows or should know that "*StressFire*" was published in 1984 and bears that copyright date. It would be clear to anyone who reads the English language, has rudimentary math skills, and possesses an IQ in the high two-digit range that the litigation I wrote of in 1984 could not possibly be the same litigation that went on in 1986.

The _Hansen_ action in which I took part was on the administrative side of the house, not the judicial side, which is why Dodson apparently didn't know where to find it. John Townsend Rich, one of the attorneys who represented the female agents who, in my opinion, were wrongfully fired, has been kind enough to furnish an explanatory letter, which I will append to this statement.

You will note that it was not a settlement. The hearing judge decided in favor of the plaintiffs for whom I spoke; supported by the Department of Justice Complaint Adjudication Officer, and ultimately accepted by the Bureau.

Dodson shows here his typical cavalier attitude toward the truth. Note his use of the term "impeached." In a strict dictionary sense, this can be simply a questioning of someone's veracity or accuracy. However, as used in court, "to impeach" means to destroy someone's credibility to the point where they are not believed. This has never happened to me in court, and certainly didn't happen in this case, since the hearing judge's written decision was in lockstep with my testimony on the issues.

The use of weasel-words that mean one thing in a dictionary definition and another thing entirely in common parlance is something Shawn has in common with a fellow he took as his mentor some years ago. Both play the same game with the word "falsehood," which in a dictionary definition can simply be an inaccuracy of greater or lesser proportion, but which is heard and read by the American public to mean, "a lie." 

This sort of word game comes under the heading of "dirty debate tricks," the kind of ethical breach that would probably get a teenage kid kicked off a high school debate team. Dodson gets his false interpretation of _Hansen_ from the aforementioned mentor. I will not mention that man's name here, since he and I have had something of a détente since about 1993, when I called him to account for this sort of character assassination. He has kept his venomous little mouth off me ever since, at least in public. However, he still does not miss an opportunity to lie about me, or others he disagrees with, behind our backs, and he is generally smart enough to slip his delicate little hand up the backside of a puppet like Shawn and manipulate their mouths to speak his twisted truths for him.

I first encountered Shawn some years ago when he put on his website a ponderous poison pen concoction in which he spent thousands of words accusing me and others who dared disagree with his puppetmaster of "falsehoods." In my case, he tried to nitpick what I had written of the 4/11/86 FBI gunfight in Dade County in the pages of American Handgunner magazine, later reprinted in "*Ayoob Files: The Book*."

It was apparent to anyone who read that "falsehood" screed that he had never seen the FBI reconstruction of the incident, nor other critical documents from the actual investigation, or was deliberately ignoring them because the facts therein supported the person Dodson wanted to trash. It was equally apparent that it was written in exactly the same distinctive style as employed by Dodson's mentor. Did that person actually write it, allowing Shawn to "take credit" for it and thus keep himself out of the line of return fire, or did Dodson just slavishly copy the style of his puppetmaster? I suppose it doesn't matter: either is equally pathetic.

In any case, only two sources were cited in the attack on me: a BS TV show and the analysis of the incident written by Dr. French Anderson. I've read the latter in detail, and have met Dr. Anderson, and I think his heart was in the right place in this matter. Dr. Anderson himself was careful to note that some of what he had written was speculative in nature. This was pointedly left out of the attack on me, falsely implying that the Anderson analysis was the final documented word on the incident, a claim Dr. Anderson himself never made for his work.

By way of comparison, the sources upon which I relied to discuss the lessons of 4/11/86 included the following. Three weeks after the shooting, I was teaching at the Metro Dade Police Academy, and Dr. Joe Davis, the Chief Medical Examiner for Dade County, was kind enough to drop by and spend a couple of hours briefing our class on his end of the investigation in great detail. As time went on, I spent several hours listening to SA Edmundo Mireles, the unquestioned hero of the incident, both one on one and at the lectures he was kind enough to present at ASLET when I invited him there. I also spent hours poring over the equally detailed talk given at the New Hampshire Police Standards and Training Academy by Supervisory SA Gordon McNeill, who had returned the first fire of the encounter. I listened to Sgt. Dave Rivers of Metro Dade Homicide, who led the actual investigation. There was FBI's own reconstruction/training film, of course, and much other investigative documentation, as well as a massive clipping file of contemporary accounts.

Against this, Shawn Dodson put a bad TV show and a speculative account he falsely re-labeled as something other than speculation.

I have a great deal of respect for Dr. Anderson's work in this matter. However, in some areas his analysis differs from the official reports, and in those areas I had to go with the latter. After reviewing the Dodson attack, which accused me of sloppy research and falsehoods, I determined that I had only gotten one thing wrong: I had misspelled the surname of SA Gil Orrantia by one letter. If Shawn Dodson wants you to believe that a misspelling is a falsehood, I think that says more about him than it does about me.

In one sense, it is amusing to be accused of shoddy research and falsehoods by someone like Shawn. It's a bit like Bill Clinton accusing you of sexual harassment: so Kafka-esque that you have to laugh. However, when you get below the surface, there is a poison in Dodson's words that really cries out for an antidote.

As gun owners' rights activist Clayton Cramer wrote recently, those of us who speak or write for public consumption are targets for lies, and we have limited recourse in terms of libel suits. Evan Marshall, Edwin Sanow, and myself – the primary targets of Dodson's poison pen – knew what we were getting into when we entered public forums, and I suppose we have to put up with this sort of BS from people like Dodson.

Not so Ed Mireles and the late Gordon McNeill. They came into the limelight through no intention of their own, but because they were deservedly acclaimed for the great valor and spirit they showed on 4/11/86. When Dodson snidely accuses _them_ of falsehood by extention, he goes too far.

At one point in his strange screed, Dodson insists that McNeill's .357 S&W Combat Magnum was loaded with .38 Special ammunition. He may not have had access to the official FBI materials, but that's no excuse; Dodson makes frequent reference to my book "*The Ayoob Files*," so he has obviously read it. Therein, Mireles is quoted on his recollection of being able to distinguish between the "pops" of the .38s and 9mms, the louder reports of McNeill's Magnum rounds, and what he called "the psychologically devastating ka-boom" of cop-killer Michael Platt's .223 rifle.

Dodson calls it a "falsehood" that Platt's accomplice Edward Matix sustained ear damage from Platt firing the .223 in direct proximity to his unprotected face. Gordon McNeill, far closer to the investigation than Dodson or his puppetmaster, said otherwise and was so quoted in "Ayoob Files."

I may have to put up with Dodson's crap. But when he implicitly accuses these two genuine American heroes of "falsehoods," Dodson is contemptible and unforgivable.

Similarly, his out of context characterization of the cross examination of me by John Hall in _Hansen_ creates the false illusion that Hall was claiming to have impeached a witness he did not impeach. I am proud to say that I know John Hall. I've been an expert witness in court since the late '70s, and no attorney before or since has given me a tougher cross than he. I've seen him speak, toured the FBI Academy with Hall as my guide, sat in on class and watched him teach, and consider him one of the best that the Bureau has ever produced. Ironically, the sweeping changes made in FBI firearms training after the _Hansen_ decision helped pave the way for Hall to still further update the Bureau after he took over the firearms training unit in the late 1980s, bringing the Bureau to the highest standard of such training that it had enjoyed since J. Edgar Hoover hired Jelly Bryce in the 1930s. John went on to a stellar finish of his career as the nation's leading authority on Constitutional law for police, staying after scheduled retirement by special order of the Director, and the changes he had done so much to effect in FBI firearms training continued to advance to their excellent current state of the art.

When Dodson implies that this man falsely characterized the testimony in _Hansen_, he once again crosses the line from "deserving no respect" to "deserving of outright contempt."

The letter from John Townsend Rich, the attorney who _did_ the Hansen case, follows.
*Respectfully submitted by Massad Ayoob.*

----------


## guyinthailand

> PS.
> I don't believe Zimmerman's version of events in the least.



Like I said above, Ent, why don't you go ahead and get your hanging noose ready.  It has been apparent for a long time that you got a hard-on to hang Zimmerman.  You and Jesse Jackson, Spike Lee, Al Sharpton, the media--all up there on the wagon having a good 'ol time at the hangin'.

----------


## guyinthailand

> interesting article,..........
> 
> Does ABC video show Zimmerman told the truth?
> 
> We've all been litigating this entire case in the public, and people have been getting important facts wrong. :  US Politics | AMERICAblog News: Does ABC video show Zimmerman told the truth?


from above.  Is a picture worth a thousand words?

 Zimmerman's head enlarged 300%

----------


## ENT

:smiley laughing:  Massad Ayoob!

----------


## ENT

gayinthailand, loopy in lalaland!

 :smiley laughing: 


Check out all of Ayoob's references, his fan club are mid-American "carriers", wannabe gunslingers and semi literate dodgers all wanting to know how to kill a man legally with a gun!

WoooWooo to you  cuckooo!!

All your words are lifted straight out of his spiel! The guy who posted the bullshit evidence about Martin's face

book, the cop who got it wrong!!

.......then he back peddaled and withdrew his "detective" work!

Oh holy mudafugin sonofa bitch!

Your teacher!

 :smiley laughing:

----------


## guyinthailand

> gayinthailand, loopy in lalaland! Check out ..., his fan club are mid-American  "carriers", wannabe gunslingers and semi literate dodgers all wanting to  know how to kill a man legally with a gun!WoooWooo to you  cuckooo!!All your words are lifted straight out of his spiel! The guy who posted the bullshit evidence about Martin's facebook, the cop who got it wrong!!then he back peddaled and withdrew his "detective" work!Oh holy mudafugin sonofa bitch!Your teacher!



*^psychiatrist's note: April 4, 2012: ^"Alzheimer's has progressed to sheer lunacy".*

----------


## ENT

In one of his spiels Ayoob says that anyone with an *IQ in the higher two digits*, can understand him. 
Higher two digits? Less than three digits (100, average IQ level)? The same IQ level as an average Thai school kid?
Not an IQ of 110 or higher? (university entrance level)

I agree, it'd take a pretty low IQ level to fall for his line of bullshit!  

This is the web site that gayinthailand (aka loopy in lalaland) lifted his spiel from.
Here, Ayoob, the rodeo and gun club circuit tourist and wannabe teacher of all-things-guns and the law exhibits his high 90s IQ level brain skills

Massad Ayoob » 2012 » March 

 ::chitown::

----------


## guyinthailand

> In one of his spiels Ayoob says that anyone with an *IQ in the higher two digits*, can understand him.  Higher two digits? Less than three digits (100, average IQ level)? The same IQ level as an average Thai school kid? Not an IQ of 110 or...gayinthailand (aka loopy in lalaland) lifted his spiel from.rodeo and gun club circuit tourist and wannabe teacher  of all-things-guns and the law exhibits his high 90s IQ level brain  skills



*^psychiatrist's note: april 4, 2012: 'patient has deteriorated and is muttering incoherently'*

Ent, you can't even comprehend what Ayoob was saying.  I fear it is your IQ which is in the two digits.

And you continue to gay bash (calling me gayinthailand, even though I'm not gay, but no matter, you're still a bigot).

Plus you're a reverse racist for wanting to hang Zimmerman, a 'white' man, without a fair trial, all because you automatically (like Spike Lee and Jesse Jackson) take the black man's side--without any evidence whatsoever.

And what is even more transparent is you continue to post stuff which tries to avoid dealing with the tough questions thrown at you and tries to distract readers from the nonsense of your earlier posts.

Epic fail.

----------


## blue

nothing wrong with gay bashing
or being racist !

----------


## ENT

^^                                                                                                                                                                                      Ayoob is the most thoroughly discredited self styled expert in discipline of forensic science.

His error-ridden ramble over the Zimmerman/Martin case is a joke!
Your referencing him is totally stupid and your mid-American wanabe gunslinger lawyer views are totally off the wall.

USA has a totally frd-up gun law that's seen the death by firearms rate double since it came in.
That law is the one you and Ayoob are trying to interpret to justify Trayvon Martin's murder.
That law emphasises the right to use _reasonable_ force as a self defence, but interpreted by fools to mean lethal force.
Zimmerman stalked and confronted Martin and killed him deliberately.

Zimmerman _confessed_ to wanting to kill Martin. 

Not once did I call for Zimmerman's hanging, nor did I pit white against black in my posts, those are _your_ fears, not mine, *you liar!*

You're not capable of even _formulating_ a tough question let alone post one.
You and your "high two digit 1Q level" (Ayoob's words) associates have a long way to go to convince anyone of anything!

----------


## Camel Toe

The prosecution will have their day over the simple fact over-zealous Zimmerman lusts for putting down his Counter Strike SPS CD and becoming a real legalized killer a la Steven Seagal.  

But he's not a cop.  Why not?   Is he too phat, too stupid, can't see which way the Es are pointing on the vision chart?  Why is he one of the very few neighborhood watchmen who caries a gun?  Is ice tea a deadly weapon?  "They always get away with this shit, fuckin coons".   That alone is enough to show the kid was profiled.   He'll never win this case.  Murder in the second if he cops a plea. Should be murder in the first.  How long did he stalk the kid?  Long enough to get hold of himself?  Yep.

----------


## ENT

I agree. Pre-meditated murder is obviously the case.

----------


## Camel Toe

The only question left is how much time will he do.  Stand Your Ground needs to have a precedent set.   Zimmerman will have to be the dupe for that.  Not to mention the backlash if the sentence is a hand slap.  He's not a police officer.  He'll won't get the benefits of that.

----------


## ENT

A hand slap sentence doesn't bear thinking about.
Following up on by repealing or ammending that mis-interpreted "stand your ground" law may let the cops off the hook though.
I suppose it depends how far the FBI want to go in _their_ investigation of the case.

----------


## guyinthailand

Ent and Camel Toe just saved everyone a lot of money and time in their 3 posts 'judge-jury-and-prosecution' of Zimmerman.

_"String 'em up, boys!"_

----------


## guyinthailand

> ^^                                                                                                                                                                                      Ayoob is the most thoroughly discredited self styled expert in discipline of forensic science.


You moron, his expertise is the judicious use of deadly force not forensic science. Your stupid post above from some disgruntled idiot regarding ballistics on a 1980'2  FBI shootout is a pathetic post.  And he has never been discredited.  If he were 'discredited' then he wouldn't be paid $2,000 per day as an expert witness in self-defense shootings.




> That law is the one you and Ayoob are trying to interpret to justify Trayvon Martin's murder.... Pre-meditated murder is obviously the case.


I told you that, because of your low IQ, that you couldn't understand what Ayoob was saying and you just proved it.  Both Ayoob and I are on record as saying "Let's wait for Zimmerman to get a fair trial". As I've said all along the possibility exists that Zimmerman wrongfully took a life. But you've already convicted him in your pathetic peanut-brain of a mind. * Fascist*.




> Zimmerman stalked and confronted Martin and killed him deliberately.


*You don't know that.*  It is just what you want to believe so you can stay on the bandwagon with Jesse, Spike and Sharpton.  Zimmerman deserves a fair trial.




> Zimmerman _confessed_ to wanting to kill Martin.


Ent, how many times do I have to tell you it is okay to kill a person if it is done in self-defense, and it is okay to 'confessing' to want to kill a person if it is done in self-defense.  Try, for once, not being a stupid retard by trying to convince people this so-called alleged 'confession' means he confessed to murder.




> Not once did I call for Zimmerman's hanging, nor did I pit white against black in my posts, those are _your_ fears, not mine, *you liar!*


You've always implied you thought Zimmerman killed Martin because Martin was black.  This is precisely the reason you're all worked up over this killing and not worked up over blacks killing blacks or blacks killing whites.  Who's the liar, eh Ent? * You're worse than a liar:* you talk out of both sides of your mouth and then try and pretend you didn't.  *You're a phony and a pussy.*

And when you say someone committed premeditated murder--BEFORE THERE HAS BEEN A TRIAL--that is equivalent to hanging them.*  Move to North Korea where you can be adored for advocating the doing away with a fair trial.*

----------


## ENT

You have just approved of murder as a method of conflict resolution.
It's Americans like you that promote the negative image of Americans that we call Sepos, as poisonous and unhealthy as septic tanks.

You've once again demonstrated in your unintelligent posts the negative aspects of the American psyche and that you lie, constantly.
Your continual referencing of to racist views just shows how much of a white bigot you are, as balanced as a two legged stool.

----------


## Camel Toe

^ ^  Fox News logic  

The only people who know what social justice is really like in the US for a Black man is a Black man.   

Anyone who believes whatever shit is broadcast on Fox is the same who thinks Noah loaded 8.7 million species on his arc.

 :rofl:

----------


## guyinthailand

> You have just approved of murder as a method of conflict resolution.
> It's Americans like you that promote the negative image of Americans that we call Sepos, as poisonous and unhealthy as septic tanks.
> 
> You've once again demonstrated in your unintelligent posts the negative aspects of the American psyche and that you lie, constantly.
> Your continual referencing of to racist views just shows how much of a white bigot you are, as balanced as a two legged stool.


*Maybe you're IQ is not even in the double digits.*

I have always said "it is possible that Zimmerman is guilty of wrongfully taking a life".  

I never said he was innocent.  I never said he was guilty.  

 I said he deserves a fair trial.  

*If Zimmerman had been black and Martin white* and idiots like you were saying the black man was guilty of premeditated murder I would still be saying the same thing as now:  'give the guy a fair trial'.  

*All my posts have been to counter low-IQ FASCISTS like you who are calling it premeditated murder.*

----------


## Camel Toe

> Maybe you're IQ is not even in the double digits.


Philosophy 103: Introduction to Logic
Argumentum Ad Hominem

Please go on ..

----------


## guyinthailand

> Maybe you're IQ is not even in the double digits.
> 			
> 		
> 
> Philosophy 103: Introduction to Logic
> Argumentum Ad Hominem
> 
> Please go on ..


Camel Toe, I suggest you back up about a few pages and read Ent's posts if you want to see the first talk of low IQ.  

I'm just hittin the ball that he served back into his court.

----------


## ENT

^Zimmerman will get a fair trial once Attorney Corey decides if he has a case to answer, which I think he obviously has.
The relevant charge will also be approved by her.

Most of your posts have been Ayoob inspired nonsense, and as racially biased as possible.

----------


## ENT

Fek, it was Ayoob who said that an IQ level in the "high double digits" was what it took to understand _him_!   :Smile:

----------


## guyinthailand

Ayoob's quote, which refutes the idiot trying to call into question Ayoob's testimony about an FBI shootout: 
_" It would be clear to anyone who reads the English language, has rudimentary math skills, and possesses an IQ in the high two-digit range that the litigation I wrote of in 1984 could not possibly be the same litigation that went on in 1986._"

Then there's Ent's quote, where he personalizes the low IQ stuff.




> In one of his spiels Ayoob says that anyone with an *IQ in the higher two digits*, can understand him. 
> Higher two digits? Less than three digits (100, average IQ level)? The same IQ level as an average Thai school kid? Not an IQ of 110 or higher? (university entrance level)I agree, it'd take a pretty low IQ level to fall for his line of bullshit!  
> 
> This is the web site that gayinthailand (aka loopy in lalaland) lifted his spiel from.
> Here, Ayoob, the rodeo and gun club circuit tourist and wannabe teacher of all-things-guns and the law exhibits his high 90s IQ level brain skills

----------


## guyinthailand

> ^Zimmerman will get a fair trial once Attorney Corey decides if he has a case to answer, which I think he obviously has.
> The relevant charge will also be approved by her.
> 
> Most of your posts have been Ayoob inspired nonsense, and as racially biased as possible.


You're blabbering nonsense yet again ('Ayoob inspired... racially biased blahblahblah').

*You should say "he'll get a trial". * 

It remains to be seen if it is fair. 

It sure won't be if people of your ilk are lurking about.

 But then I wouldn't expect you to know the difference between a 'trial'  and a 'fair trial'. 

After all, you've already convicted him of premeditated  murder.

----------


## sabang

> You should say "he'll get a trial". 
> 
> It remains to be seen if it is fair.


You exhibit a dismaying lack of faith in your own countries legal system.

The real shame though is that, in the vacuum created by the legal authorities inaction and thumb twiddling, this has turned into a petty and vindictive media circus.

----------


## ENT

> After all, you've already convicted him of premeditated  murder.


You really do post garbage.

_I_ haven't convicted Zimmerman of _anything._ I have given my opinion about him, only.
It seems as though _you_ see him as convicted, even before trial.

A fair trial will decide that issue, and believe you me it's going to _have to be_ a fair trial for trust in the American system of justice to be established at all.
Angela Corey is a tough cookie, I don't think she's going to let a careless decision slip through, she's well capable of coming to the right decision about the evidence, and she's going to publish it too.

It might not be a popular decision, but it'll be possibly the most important one she's made in her career so far, as countless future lives hang in the balance based on firstly, her evaluation of the evidence, secondly her ruling as to what shall or shall not be allowed as evidence, and thirdly, which charge or charges she deems appropriate to the matter in hand.

Then, based on her findings and the result of the trial, the US leglature will have to ratify or amend the "stand your ground " law.
Failing that, all hell will break loose.

----------


## Camel Toe

> I haven't convicted Zimmerman of anything. I have given my opinion about him, only.
> It seems as though you see him as convicted, even before trial.


Something must be wrong with innocent speculation.    We're not on the jury.  We're not news anchorpersons.   We're just having fun.

----------


## guyinthailand

George Zimmerman 911 call: what the fallout is from botched editing - CSMonitor.com
* NBC has apologized for the editing, which suggests George Zimmerman  was racially motivated in his actions. Authorities need more time to  investigate the case thoroughly, media experts say.
*

                             By                                                      Daniel B. Wood, Staff writer /                         April 4, 2012
Los Angeles

The revelation that NBC News altered the recorded 911 call that George Zimmerman made to police before he fatally shot Trayvon Martin has brought down heavy criticism on NBC – and points up the dangers of a case being tried outside the legal system, say media and legal analysts.

“This guy looks like he’s up to no good.... He looks black,” is what the edited version of the tape presents Mr. Zimmerman as saying. It aired on the “Today” show last week. But it was edited in such a way that suggests Zimmerman was racially motivated. The actual conversation is: “This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about,” Zimmerman said.

The dispatcher asked, “OK, and this guy – is he black, white, or Hispanic?” Zimmerman replied, “He looks black.”


NBC has apologized for the editing and launched its own investigation into what happened. “During our investigation it became evident that there was an error made in the production process that we deeply regret,” says a statement released by NBC spokeswoman Lauren Kapp. “We will be taking the necessary steps to prevent this from happening in the future and apologize to our viewers.”

The full 911 recording doesn’t necessarily exonerate Zimmernan of any wrongdoing, media experts note. But they add that before conclusions can be reached, authorities need more time to carefully go through the details of the Trayvon Martin case.

“The NBC/‘Today’ show problem is just one example of the confusion and rush to judgment which has been at the forefront of this case,” says Richard Goedkoop, professor of communication at Philadelphia’s La Salle University, in an e-mail. “The larger problem here is that the news media as a whole and the punditry class, in large measure, feel that they need to analyze and ‘solve’ this case before the authorities have finished a full investigation.”

Professor Goedkoop adds, “It is time to give it time and to withhold our judgment, as difficult as that might be.”

Some media experts have taken direct aim at NBC.

“The incident serves as a reminder about some basics of journalism: check your facts, curb your preconceptions, and don't distort other people's words through selective editing,” says Jack Pitney, professor of government at Claremont McKenna College in California, in an e-mail. “The story undermines public confidence in the mainstream news media, which is already pretty low.”

In a recent Pew Research Center study, Professor Pitney notes, 77 percent of respondents perceived the press as lacking fairness. Seventy-two percent said the media were unwilling to admit mistakes, 66 percent cited inaccurate reporting, and 63 percent saw political bias.

Still, the potential legal case involving Zimmerman is not altered one whit, say legal analysts.

“Prosecution decisions are not made based on news clips; they’re made based on the evidence available to the prosecution, which undoubtedly included the original 911 recording,” says Caleb Mason, professor of law at Southwestern Law School in Los Angeles, in an e-mail. “If there’s a trial, it will be about what happened that night, as far as can be reconstructed from the recordings, eyewitnesses and forensics. Whether NBC got the story right or not means nothing for the trial.”

It isn’t unusual for a news organization to edit a tape, says Derede McAlpin, a vice president at Levick Strategic Communications.

“As quiet as it is kept, quite a few news organizations edit original content. It is a common practice,” she says by e-mail, adding, “It is also important to note that what you see in the media is not necessarily admitted in a court of law.”

Goedkoop of La Salle University sees parallels with the case of Rodney King, whose beating by Los Angeles police was videotaped.

“The nation felt quite certain it saw the truth of what happened to Rodney King. The public is similarly sure about this case,” he writes. “The [district attorney] in King's case tried it as if the images spoke for themselves. Yet ... the defense won by offering a more convincing explanation of the images, focusing on what is by definition invisible – the officers' motives, reasoning, judgment, and feelings.”

He continues, “The [acquittal of the police officers resulted in] one of the worst riots in our nation's history. You have to wonder if we are doomed to repeat a history we refuse to learn from.”

----------


## ENT

::chitown::

----------


## guyinthailand

*April  4, 2012   * 

*   
* 



*Why the Trayvon Martin Circus Could Derail Obama's Re-election 					*

Posted: 04/ 4/2012  2:37 pm

James Marshall Crotty: Why the Trayvon Martin Circus Could Derail Obama's Re-election

----------


## Camel Toe

> NBC has apologized for the editing


Does Fox ever apologize for the trash they sell?   Does Mitt ever recant?





> Why the Trayvon Martin Circus Could Derail Obama's Re-election


One of hundreds of opinions.  Do you also believe in Bible stories?  Posting these links means nothing.  Appeal to a higher authority:  Another logical fallacy.  That's two in the past 3 hours.   

If it turns out he's guilty you can defer to me.  If it turns out they have no case against him I'll defer to you.  Deal?

----------


## ENT

*Legislator calls for the "stand your ground" law to be investigated.*

Wednesday, April 4, 12:05 p.m. EDT: CBC introduces resolution calling for justice: Members of the Congressional Black Caucus, led by Chairman Emanuel Cleaver and Reps. Alcee Hastings, Corrine Brown and Frederica Wilson, introduced a congressional resolution today on the death of Trayvon Martin and the controversial gun laws surrounding his death. In comments on H. Res. 612, Cleaver said, "As the Department of Justice continues its thorough investigation into Trayvon Martin's untimely death, it is time for us as legislators to look at the troubling 'Stand your ground' law, which has enabled George Zimmerman to remain free. To honor Trayvon's life and protect others, it is imperative that we shine a light on this controversial, dangerous and sometimes deadly law that has been adopted in over 20 states, to protect our communities and the integrity of  our nation's legal system."

Trayvon Martin: Latest News

It's moving ahead faster than anticipated, but all in the right direction.

----------


## Camel Toe

A lot of minorities have their way in an election year innit?  Like the auto workers never go on strike in the off-season.   So happy to be a White man I am.  I could profile and shoot any Black or Hispanic I please and walk without ever hiring an attorney.   

I think it was about 15 years ago when Florida waved their gun sales regulations.  Jeez, millions were sold and crime went through the roof, if that's possible in Fla.  About a month or two later they put it back to where it was ... the 15-day waiting (cooling off actually) period.   Freakin wild west down there, here in Texas too.  You can go to a gun show and buy everything in sight .. no questions asked.   It's just certain states tho.  Watch your ass tooting a fire arm in New York.  I'm sure carrying permits are very very difficult to obtain.

----------


## robuzo

Anyone interested in this case would be advised to read this article:
'Stand your ground' law protects those who go far beyond that point - Tampa Bay Times
Excerpt:
Said Durell Peaden, the former Republican senator from Crestview who sponsored the bill: "The guy lost his defense right then. When he said, 'I'm following him,' he lost his defense."

Said Jeb Bush, the governor who signed the bill into law: "Stand your ground means stand your ground. It doesn't mean chase after somebody who's turned their back."

But they are wrong.

Since its passage in 2005, the "stand your ground'' law has protected people who have pursued another, initiated a confrontation and then used deadly force to defend themselves. Citing the law, judges have granted immunity to killers who put themselves in danger, so long as their pursuit was not criminal, so long as the person using force had a right to be there, and so long as he could convince the judge he was in fear of great danger or death.

The Tampa Bay Times has identified 140 cases across the state in which "stand your ground'' has been invoked, and many involve defendants whose lives were clearly in jeopardy. But at least a dozen share similarities with what we know about the Trayvon Martin case, and they show the law has not always worked as its sponsors say they intended.

----------


## guyinthailand

* George Zimmerman’s Father Tells Hannity Trayvon Martin Followed And Attacked His Son | Mediaite*

video
by Frances Martel | 10:06 pm, April 4th, 2012
 » 261 comments  *George Zimmerman*‘s father is still in hiding after the national media firestorm that began when his son shot Florida teenager *Trayvon Martin*, but he spoke out tonight on _Hannity_,  explaining behind a veil of anonymity his son’s side of the story and  insisting Zimmerman acted in self-defense. Zimmerman appeared alongside  his son’s lawyers, *Craig Sonner* and *Hal Uhrig*, and argued Zimmerman did not follow Martin and only shot after he found his life in imminent danger. 

Host *Sean Hannity*  asked the elder *Zimmerman* to relate the story of how his son ran into  Trayvon Martin. “He had been texting his sister and said *he was going to  the grocery store,*” Zimmerman narrated, “he saw somebody that did not  live in the community *wandering behind some town homes*,” explaining that  the town “has had a lot of problems with burglaries.” Zimmerman  confirmed to Hannity that his son tutored minority children and had  defended a minority child hit by a car in the neighborhood and accused  Martin of following Zimmerman to a street corner. “Trayvon came from  that area where the sidewalks meet, asked my son whether he had a  problem… he said no, and Martin said, ‘well, you do now.’” 
Zimmerman also insisted the screamed on the 911 tape were his son,  not Trayvon Martin. “*George was there yelling for help for at least 40  seconds… there is absolutely no doubt it’s him on the tape,” he argued.  “Neighbor said he was calling 911 and that’s what he went inside and  did,” he told Hannity, adding that “me, my family, friends, everyone  knows that’s absolutely George.”*
The interview via Fox News below:





*RELATED: George Zimmerman’s Lawyers In Intense Exchange With Piers Morgan: ‘The Media Has Destroyed Him’*
also see link below
read more

----------


## guyinthailand

*Lawyers: Zimmerman whispered 'punks' before shooting Trayvon Martin*

*Garbled word has raised controversy*

                                  Author:  By the CNN Wire Staff
                  Published On: Apr 05 2012 11:56:54 AM CDT              Updated On: Apr 05 2012 02:38:15 PM CDT                     

SANFORD, Florida (CNN) -                  George Zimmerman told his lawyers that he whispered  "punks," not a racial slur, in the moments before he shot Trayvon  Martin, his attorneys told CNN on Thursday.
Some people interpreted the police recording of Zimmerman's call to 911 as evidence the fatal shooting was racially motivated.
Zimmerman attorneys Hal Ulrig and Craig Sonner told CNN their client told them that he said, "F---ing punks."

Forensic audio expert Tom Owen, who analyzed 911 recordings,  agreed the garbled word that raised controversy was "punks," not the  racial slur some people said they heard

When Owen, chairman  emeritus of the American Board of Recorded Evidence, used a computer  application to remove cell phone interference, the word became clearer,  he said. After discussions with linguists, he said he became convinced  that Zimmerman said "punks."

He provided CNN with a copy of the newly processed audio. 
CNN  also enhanced the sound of the 911 call, and several members of CNN's  editorial staff repeatedly reviewed the tape but could reach no  consensus on whether Zimmerman used a slur.

Martin's family and  supporters say Zimmerman, who is Hispanic, profiled Martin, who was  black, as "suspicious" and ignored a police dispatcher's request not to  follow him. Martin did not live in Sanford, Florida, but he was there  with his father, whose fiancee lives in Zimmerman's neighborhood.

Zimmerman,  28, fatally shot Martin, 17, on February 26. The case has triggered a  nationwide debate about Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law, race and  racial profiling.
While Zimmerman's attorneys may welcome Owen's  analysis of their client's 911 call, they disagree with his conclusions  about what is heard on another 911 recording.
Zimmerman has said  he was yelling for help, according to his family members and his account  to authorities, as first reported by The Orlando Sentinel and later  confirmed by Sanford police.

But Martin's relatives, including his  cousin Ronquavis Fulton, have said they are certain the voice heard on  the 911 call is Martin's.

Owen and another audio expert, Ed  Primeau, analyzed the recording for the Sentinel using different  techniques, and they said they don't believe it is Zimmerman who is  heard yelling in the background of one 911 call. They compared the  screams with Zimmerman's voice, as recorded in a 911 call he made  minutes earlier describing a "suspicious" black male.
*
"There's a  huge chance that this is not Zimmerman's voice,"* said *Primeau,* a  longtime audio engineer who is listed as an expert in recorded evidence  by the American College of Forensic Examiners International.

"After 28 years of doing this, I would put my reputation on the line and say this is not George Zimmerman screaming."

Owen also said he does not believe the screams came from Zimmerman.

He does not have a sample of Martin's voice for comparison, he said.

He  cited software that is widely used in Europe and has become recently  accepted in the United States that examines characteristics such as  pitch and the space between spoken words to analyze voices.

Using  it, he found a *48% likelihood the voice is Zimmerman's*. At least 60% is  necessary to feel confident that two samples are from the same source,  he told CNN on Monday -- meaning it's unlikely it was Zimmerman who can  be heard yelling.

The experts, both of whom said they have  testified in cases involving audio analysis, stressed that they cannot  say who was screaming. _Copyright 2012 by CNN NewSource. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redis_

----------


## guyinthailand

The above two stories contradict each other over whether the voice screaming for help was Zimmerman's.

Zimmerman's father, a retired judge, says that he and his entire family know the voice to be George's.

A retired judge surely must know the consequences of lying when a trial may go to a jury.  If they are lying about this then it is very hard for a jury to believe anything else Zimmerman's may say.

*Is a retired judge lying about his son's voice and thereby jeopardize his son's chances at trial? * I doubt it. But we shall see.

Also, what can distinguish a voice better: a) the brains of a family members or b) computer voice analyzer?  We shall see.

----------


## Camel Toe

> A retired judge surely must know the consequences of lying when a trial may go to a jury.


Of course his being the father couldn't possibly sway his observations.  Or could it be the apple doesn't fall far from the tree?  That explains why the father reached the station of judge and the son reached his goal of being a volunteer security guard and thug.  Damn, I wish we could bring our family laurels into court with us.  Of course you can if you want to add a little comedy to your defense.

----------


## ENT

^^As you point out, Zimmerman's voice failed the required minimum criterium of a 60% match to be his voice recoded screaming for help.

The two experts who analysed the 911 tapes agree on this point. The two audio engineers, hired by the Orlando Sentinel analyzed the 911 tapes from the night of the shooting and said screams for help did not come from Zimmerman.
These two experts may testify at the trial, and other analysts may also be called to submit their findings.

Martin's conversation with his girl friend that night has _also_ been recorded by* ECHELON* which analyses all electronic communication data.
This information is passed on to *NSA,* which the *FBI* can then access if necessary, in it's investigation of this case.
Any evidence needed to ID Martin's phone conversation that night can be found in *NSA's data base*.

The state Attorney can request that this information be released as evidence in Zimmerman's trial.

----------


## ENT

Angela Corey is interviewed by Nancy Grace on her view of the Trayvon Martin shooting case.

The state attorney in the Martin case says *"every aspect of both the shooter and the victim will be looked at."
*
State attorney in Trayvon case speaks | HLNtv.com

----------


## ENT

Why wasn't Zimmerman arrested and charged that night?

In Session contributor Sunny Hostin says Zimmerman should have been arrested the night of the shooting.

Watch the video to see Hostin explain why she thinks the facts surrounding Martin's shooting are odd.

Martin family: Why was warrant request overruled? | HLNtv.com

----------


## guyinthailand

*Wyatt Troia*
Harvard University student, Crimson editorial writer
* 
 Justice for George Zimmerman Posted: 04/ 5/2012  2:00 pm*

"Justice for Trayvon" is the rallying cry for those demanding  George Zimmerman's immediate arrest in the shooting of Trayvon Martin.  Yet forgotten in the rush to punish Zimmerman are the components of true  justice: a presumption of innocence, dispassionate evaluation of the  evidence, due process and color-blindness. Justice means justice for  all, and that means both Martin and Zimmerman.

New evidence continues to complicate a case that the media initially  portrayed as clear-cut, turning many Americans against Zimmerman. Let's  survey the snags, not to discredit Martin's family's account but to  illustrate just how little we know with certainty about Martin's death.

Did Zimmerman racially profile Martin in judging him "suspicious"? Here the distinction between racial profiling and holistic profiling is relevant. Zimmerman's friend Frank Taaffe said young black males had committed a string of recent robberies in the diverse  neighborhood. Let's assume that is true. If Martin fit the profile of  these specific suspects, was unfamiliar in the neighborhood, and was  acting strangely in Zimmerman's mind by walking behind houses, then  Zimmerman's judgment was appropriate. It remains uncertain whether  Zimmerman,  mentor to two black children, uttered a racial slur in his 911 call.

Although Zimmerman made a poor judgment in following Martin, it isn't clear that he wanted a confrontation. Zimmerman's father said his son was only trying to follow Martin until he could locate an address to give police.
Who started the confrontation is also unclear. Martin's family says Zimmerman caught up with, confronted and attacked Martin. Zimmerman's family says  that after Zimmerman lost sight of Martin and turned back towards his  vehicle, Martin confronted and attacked Zimmerman, breaking his nose and  repeatedly smashing his head into the concrete. They say  that Zimmerman only drew his weapon and shot Martin after Martin saw  Zimmerman's gun in his waistband and verbally threatened Zimmerman's  life.

Many claimed police video of Zimmerman that night revealed no clear injuries. Zimmerman, however, had already received first aid and the police report shows that he was bleeding from the nose and the back of his head when police arrived. ABC News recently enhanced  the police video to reveal what ABC's Matt Gutman says appear to be "a  pair of gashes or welts" on the back of Zimmerman's head. The medical  records are not yet released.

There are three eyewitnesses in the case; two corroborate Zimmerman's account. One says he saw Zimmerman, below Martin, crying for help while Martin beat him. Austin Brown, a black teenager, says he saw Zimmerman on the ground "moaning and crying for help." Brown's mother has since said police pressured him into giving more information than he remembered, but he repeated the claim afterwards. She may simply be concerned that her son will suffer backlash like Joe Oliver, a black supporter of Zimmerman, who says he has a "target on my back."A third eyewitness says it was too dark to tell who was who.

Only non-eyewitnesses to the scuffle have corroborated Martin's family's account, but two voice identification experts said the screams in a 911 call during the incident are not Zimmerman's.

Media coverage has favored Martin through selective images, descriptions and context. Many simply reported that Zimmerman "confronted" and "gunned down"old photos  of a much younger, smiling Martin were shown beside a mug shot of a  much heavier, stony-faced Zimmerman. Few reported that Martin was several inches taller than Zimmerman. Zimmerman's reported weight is outdated; he actually only weighs 170 pounds to Martin's 160, according to Oliver. Zimmerman was labeled "white Hispanic," an unusual term helpful to the racial profiling narrative. Few corrected early reports that vastly overstated the frequency of Zimmerman's 911 calls. an unarmed black teenager. For weeks, Zimmerman's criminal history was reported quickly, but we only recently learned that Martin was repeatedly suspended from school, including for graffiti; was found with 12 pieces of women's jewelry  (which he said belonged to a friend he couldn't name) and a screwdriver  (a possible burglary tool) in his backpack; or that he might have punched a bus driver. The Martin family's attorney said Trayvon's past was "irrelevant," yet has highlighted Zimmerman's criminal history.

Most recently, NBC ran  an edited version of Zimmerman's 911 call that made it appear that  Zimmerman volunteered that Martin was black without being asked, when in  reality the 911 dispatcher asked Zimmerman to give the race of the  "suspicious person" he was calling about. NBC has since admitted it made  an error.

This is a very murky case and we still don't know all the facts. More  will be released to the upcoming grand jury that will decide whether or  not to indict Zimmerman. If the protests and media spotlight forced the Sanford police department to improve a possibly shoddy initial investigation, great. Now we need to be patient and let the judicial system work.


Wyatt Troia: Justice for George Zimmerman

----------


## sabang

> Media coverage has favored Martin through selective images, descriptions and context.


From what I can see, it's evenly slanted both ways according to the politics of the media mouthpiece. You know what tack Fox will take, much as you know what tack 'Black Power' will take.

Both are no substitute for a Court of Law.

----------


## guyinthailand

Thu Apr 05, 2012 at 02:59 PM PDT
*George Zimmerman's new lawyer says evidence will show Trayvon Martin caused his own death*

by Meteor Blades 

 A new lawyer for George Zimmerman says his current role is defending his  client's reputation while everyone awaits the decision of the special  prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin slaying.  Zimmerman has hired media  savvy Hal Uhrig, former police officer, former Florida assistant  attorney general and commentator on local Fox News stations to handle  his defense if he is charged in the shooting. At the same time, Joe  Oliver, the guy who unconvincingly said he was Zimmerman's friend in  several media interviews, has been jettisoned as "media consultant."  Uhrig said in an interview with WPTV that the shooting had nothing to do with the unarmed 17-year-old's being black:
"It's because that 6-foot-3 young man made a terrible  decision and a bad judgment *when he decided to smack somebody in the  face and break their nose,* jump on them and *smack their head into the  ground*, and in doing that, put him in reasonable fear for his safety,"  Uhrig said. "He was absolutely entitled to defend himself and that's why  Trayvon Martin is dead, not because of racial profiling." In a subsequent interview  conducted by NBC's Kerry Sanders and posted at the website of  NBC-affiliated theGrio, Uhrig expanded on his views. Once the facts  become known, he said, his client's behavior in the shooting will be  seen as reasonable:
*[Sanders:]* _In addition to the broken  nose and the lacerations that you suggest, if the police followed  protocol, and you are a former police officer, in the 7 hour[s 50  minutes] investigation they did, they would have [found] blood  splatter[ed] on his shirt._ *[Uhrig:]* Not necessarily.
*
[Sanders:]* _Could be microscopic depending on proximity, so the question is how close was George Zimmerman to..._
*
[Uhrig:]* You're going to find, the two of them were  closely engaged. It was a basic point blank shot, but there's going to  be evidence that the police have, and they don't do their investigation  by sharing it with you and I and having a crowd vote on what they think  about it as it goes along. They'll do an entire investigation. Now the  Florida Department of Law Enforcement -- [a] very well resourced,  credible law enforcement agency -- has taken over a lot of the  responsibility for that. The special prosecutor is investigating as  though it's a brand new start from the beginning. It's going to be very,  very thoroughly vetted and investigated and at that point in time a  very well respected prosecutor is going to make a determination as to  what they take to the grand jury. And whatever comes out is whatever is  going to come out. [...]
*
[Sanders:]* _And that evidence, the trace evidence, the forensic evidence you believe it covers..._
*
[Uhrig:]* I believe everything that you're going to  find that comes out from a forensic standpoint or a witness standpoint  is going to be consistent with the *explanation given by George Zimmerman*  and the way the law is written in Florida and about 23 other states, if  you are in fear for imminent injury, and *when you're getting your head  slammed in the ground after your nose has been broken* that's a pretty  good reason to have fear of imminent injury -- then you are entitled to  use force including deadly force to protect yourself.
*
[Sanders:]* _And you are suggesting that's exactly what happened here?_
*
[Uhrig:]* *That's exactly what happened.* [...]
*
[Sanders:]* _I'm listening to what you're saying  and I hear you without saying it—that you are prepared because you have  an indication that there are going to be charges._
*
[Uhrig:]* I'm not saying any such thing. I'm not  confident, but I am very hopeful there will not be any charges. I'm  never confident one way or the other. The grand jury is going to do what  the grand jury is going to do. If there are charges, we will  successfully defend them. If there are not, then justice will be done a  little earlier.


Daily Kos: George Zimmerman's new lawyer says evidence will show Trayvon Martin caused his own death

----------


## sabang

Here's a quote you will not read from an expensive hired defence lawyer- "George Zimmerman is guilty". He is naturally playing to the media, as are the Martin family lawyers, who will equally certainly not say "Zimmerman is innocent". Both are no substitute for a Court of Law.

----------


## Camel Toe

With his new lawyer that makes two attorneys he has yet to have a sit-down with, according to Maddow.

----------


## sabang

Who's paying for them- the NRA?  :mid:

----------


## ENT

*Two shots or one?*

The handgun that killed Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black 17-year-old, was *fired once* — not twice — by a neighborhood crime watch volunteer . . .
Police found a single shell casing at the scene, and when they seized George Zimmerman’s handgun, a Kel Tel [sic] 9 mm, its magazine was full, according to a source close to the investigation. The only bullet missing was the one in the chamber, the source said.
George Zimmerman Shot Trayvon Martin Once | The Truth About Guns 

Lawyers Natalie Jackson and Benjamin Crump insisted then that they could hear *two shot*s on one 911 call, a warning shot and a kill shot, and that that proved Zimmerman was a murderer.
“*You hear a shot, a clear shot* then you hear a 17-year-old boy begging for his life then *you hear a second shot*,” Jackson said.
Gun that killed Florida teen was fired once, not twice | Seattle Times Newspaper

Zimmerman, 28, has not been charged in connection with the incident, claimed he * shot Martin twice* in self defense.
Trayvon Martin 'Hoodie' Rallies Reach North Texas | NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth

In Florida, Trayvon Martin was* shot twice* and killed by George Zimmerman, a self-professed neighborhood watchdog.From the Daily: Stop the violence - The Michigan Daily.  

Another neighbor says, "There were *gunshots* right outside my house. There's someone screaming. I just heard a guy shot. Hurry up, they are right outside my house."
In another call, a woman begs the dispatchers to send help, saying someone is "screaming and hollering" for help. Moments later, she describes a light at the scene of the shooting. "Oh, my God," she says. "There's still somebody out there walking with a flashlight."
Timeline of events in Trayvon Martin case - CNN.com

The witness recalled hearing *more than one shot.* "It definitely was more than one pop noise, so I don't know if it was an echo or anything else. But it definitely made more than one pop."

The witness said *the shots were audible* as one man was on top of the other. But the witness recalled not having been able to see clearly which man was on top because it was dark.
Witness details Trayvon Martin's killing - CNN


In one of the eight calls, screaming can be heard in the background as a woman tries to get help. That call is punctuated by* two gunshots*
Witness details Trayvon Martin's killing - CNN

----------


## Camel Toe

> Who's paying for them- the NRA?


A guy by the name of High Profile Pro Bono.

----------


## Camel Toe

> its magazine was full, according to a source close to the investigation. The only bullet missing was the one in the chamber, the source said.


You see this too makes Zimmerman look more thugish.  A chambered round means the barer has put himself on red alert.   I doubt most cops walk around with chambered rounds.  Now if his magazine was full except for one bullet it would appear he sensed trouble and cocked it.  This is more reasonable.  Don't know what a mag holds, maybe 13 to 17 depending on the mag's capacity.   But whatever the capacity was George thought one more round was necessary, as do combat soldiers.  George is a cowboy.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by sabang
> 
> 
> Who's paying for them- the NRA? 
> 
> 
> A guy by the name of High Profile Pro Bono.


They must be as desperate as Zimmerman is.

----------


## guyinthailand

If the gun was found with a full magazine and and empty chamber, then that suggests 

1) the gun slide was being grabbed when it was fired (grabbed by Martin?) which prevented another round from the magazine from entering the chamber.  If the gun had functioned 'correctly' after being fired once, the round on the top of the magazine would have been 'thrown' into the chamber just after the initial chambered 'spent' (fired) shell was ejected after firing.  Functioning without being grabbed, the magazine would then have been found to contain one fewer round than before but with a 'fresh' round in the chamber.  

and it suggests 

2) there really was only one shot fired

----------


## FailSafe

> I doubt most cops walk around with chambered rounds.


Most (nearly all) cops walk around with a round chambered- you can't take the chance of possibly being in a struggle where one arm is hindered, preventing you from racking the slide.

----------


## ENT

> If the gun was found with a full magazine and and empty chamber, then that suggests 
> 
> 1) the gun slide was being grabbed when it was fired (grabbed by Martin?) which prevented another round from the magazine from entering the chamber.  If the gun had functioned 'correctly' after being fired once, the round on the top of the magazine would have been 'thrown' into the chamber just after the initial chambered 'spent' (fired) shell was ejected after firing.  Functioning without being grabbed, the magazine would then have been found to contain one fewer round than before but with a 'fresh' round in the chamber.  
> 
> and it suggests 
> 
> 2) there really was only one shot fired


No marks were evident on Martin's hands to indicate that he grabbed a gun.

----------


## Boon Mee

Heh...The walkbacks continue on CNN.  They Enhance Zimmerman's 911 Call Again  And Reporter Now Doubts Racial Slur Used.  Imagine that?

CNN Enhances Zimmerman 911 Again, Finds He May Have Not Used Racial Slur | Video | TheBlaze.com

It's almost like the Lamestream Media have an agenda or something?  :No: 

Yep, it's all falling apart:  » Zimmerman racial slur narrative falling apart - Le·gal In·sur·rec·tion

----------


## FailSafe

I have no doubt (provided the info re: the magazine being full is true) that he only fired one shot.

Had he fired two, he would either:

A. Have been carrying loose bullets to refill the magazine, which negates the point of carrying a semi-auto in the first place (nobody does this)

or

B. Have been carrying a second (full) magazine (very possible as many people who carry bring along an extra mag, but the police would have found it) and swapped them after the (supposed) second shot

----------


## sabang

^^ I think there may well be an insurrection if this matter doesn't go to Trial.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Boon Mee

> ^^ I think there may well be an insurrection if this matter doesn't go to Trial.


Insurrection?

Whew...it doesn't get heavier than this.  You mean like the Blacks will take over or sumpthin'?  

Maybe that's what the Left wants... :Eek13:

----------


## Camel Toe

If the gun fires the bolt has to travel rearward.  No hand can prevent that, it's a pretty powerful force. And it also has to return taking the next round with it.  The only way to prevent the reloading is to remove the mag.  That could have happened during a struggle with a pistol, as mentioned.  If the kid had hold of the gun he could have held it in such a way the slide wouldn't have returned ... that is until he lost involuntary muscle control.  Seems to be a fact about death.  I'd think most people except the super hardened wouldn't recall what happened during the 
intensity of a struggle.  They just make shit up.  The jury would be aware of that.

----------


## sabang

> You mean like the Blacks will take over or sumpthin'?


Well, places like Watts and the Bronx. There is indeed the possibility of civil disturbance, if the common perception is that the case has been whitewashed- for that reason alone, it has to go to Court.

----------


## Boon Mee

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> You mean like the Blacks will take over or sumpthin'?
> 
> 
> Well, places like Watts and the Bronx. There is indeed the possibility of civil disturbance, if the common perception is that the case has been whitewashed- for that reason alone, it has to go to Court.


You mean if Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton etc continue their race-baiting and incite riots?  Why should it remotely be seen as a whitewash when Zim was acting in self-defense anyhow?

----------


## guyinthailand

_"The death weapon was a Kel-Tec PF9 semiautomatic 9mm  pistol. It has been reported that the gun was recovered with a full  magazine and that only the chambered round had been fired. This is a  condition we associate with something preventing the gun from cycling a  fresh round from the magazine into the chamber after the shot was  discharged. One thing that can cause that is another man’s hand wrapped  around the pistol, retarding its slide mechanism.  This would indicate,  as could certain gunshot residue patterns or cuts in certain places if  found on Trayvon Martin’s hand(s), that a struggle for a gun was taking  place when the fatal shot was fired. This would clearly change the shape  of the case. But – WE DON’T KNOW YET."

march 23, 2012

_Massad Ayoob » Blog Archive » GEORGE ZIMMERMAN AND TRAYVON MARTIN: WHAT WE DON

*Has the autopsy report been released yet?*

----------


## sabang

> You mean if Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton etc continue their race-baiting


Yes, as well as some virulent race baiting on the other side too.



> Why should it remotely be seen as a whitewash when Zim was acting in self-defense anyhow?


You don't know that, and neither do I. Do you think we have a better chance of finding out in Court, or in the Media?

----------


## Boon Mee

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> You mean if Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton etc continue their race-baiting
> 
> 
> Yes, as well as some virulent race baiting on the other side too.


Example(s)? :Bigeyes2: 

This poster isn't aware of any of that...

----------


## ENT

One word is all? Punks, coons, or cold? Yet the police pictured in videos at the site of Martin's shooting are in shit sleeves.
Not exactly "frkn cold", then, was it?

*Zimmerman's lawyer walks out on TV interview*                                                                                                                                                                          According to O’Donnell, Sonner was scheduled to be on the show, but just minutes before he was set to be on, he walked out of the studio in Orlando. O’Donnell laced into him for it:

Craig Sonner has been the first guest in the history of this particular show, to get scared, to be terrified, so terrified of coming on this show that he has literally run away. He’s in our car right now, taking him home from our studio, afraid to face the questioning he would face on this show. Watch out for wherever Craig Sonner shows up next on television, because wherever he shows up next on television has an obligation to put him through serious questioning about what he’s doing and what he knows, and the contradictions in the things he’s already said on television.

George Sonner Reportedly Walks Out of Lawrence O’Donnell Interview | Video | TheBlaze.com

----------


## Boon Mee

Heh...so Zim actually said 'cold' instead of 'coon'. 

It sounded like "Cold" in the first tape.

Only a racist would automatically hear "coon"... :Fing02:

----------


## FailSafe

^^

Zimmerman's lawyer has one over-riding obligation, which is to protect and defend his client- if he saw that the interview was shaping up to be a 'witch-hunt' (which it seemed to be- they wanted to talk about incidents from Zimmerman's distant past, but had no intention of bringing up Martin's recent past) then he did the right thing by leaving rather than risk damaging Zimmerman's standing.

----------


## Camel Toe

Or maybe he doesn't know enough about Zimmerman to talk about him.

----------


## FailSafe

^

Either way, subjecting himself to an attacking interview would probably not be a good idea for his client.

----------


## koman

You guys are doing an amazing job with this case.   You have covered the strengths and weakness of the various versions of the story.  Argued extensively over who said what and when, who was on top of who, and which one of them was calling for help.... but of course we have that  great machine that tells us that the voice on the recording is about 48% Zimmerman or 52% not Zimmerman....pretty conclusive stuff ... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

There are some things which so far have not been taken into account, such as the barometric pressure,  humidity level,  phase of the moon, or the DOW index for that day? 

  At first you may feel that none of these things could possibly have anything to do with what happened, but they might help to distract attention away from pure rampant speculation and junk science,  at lease for a while..... :Smile:

----------


## robuzo

^If you read the article from the Tampa Bay Times, the minutiae of what took place have virtually no bearing on whether Zimmerman could be convicted of anything, even negligent homicide/manslaughter. Some of the other killings presented in the article are even on their face more egregious, and lack any racial element. It's a wonder that any of the cops thought they had a case at all.

----------


## Camel Toe

^^ Discussion without speculation.  Seems like something a Quaker on a bicycle would revel in.  Maybe we should all go check the battery in our smoke detectors for a day or two.

----------


## Camel Toe

> If you read the article from the Tampa Bay Times


Oh, so the FBI is reporting their progress exclusively to the local newspaper?

----------


## robuzo

> If you read the article from the Tampa Bay Times
> 			
> 		
> 
> Oh, so the FBI is reporting their progress exclusively to the local newspaper?


Did you read the article? That isn't the local newspaper, btw. Feeling a bit tendentious today?

----------


## Camel Toe

> Did you read the article?


This one?



SANFORD — Despite public claims that there wasn't enough probable cause to make a criminal case in the Trayvon Martin killing, early in the investigation the Sanford Police Department requested an arrest warrant from the Seminole County State Attorney's Office, the special prosecutor in the case told the Miami Herald on Tuesday.

A Sanford police incident report shows the case was categorized as "homicide/negligent manslaughter."

The State Attorney's Office held off pending further review, the Herald reported.

The Miami Gardens high school junior was killed Feb. 26 by George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer. The 28-year-old insurance underwriter and college student was never charged, triggering a nationwide crusade on the dead teenager's behalf.

Asked to confirm that the police recommended a manslaughter charge, special prosecutor Angela Corey said:

"I don't know about that, but as far as the process I can tell you that the police went to the state attorney with a capias request, meaning: 'We're through with our investigation and here it is for you.' The state attorney impaneled a grand jury, but before anything else could be done, the governor stepped in and asked us to pick it up in midstream."

A capias is a request for charges to be filed.

----------


## robuzo

^No, I posted that information earlier. That's what I am referring to when I write "It's a wonder that any of the cops thought they had a case at all." The local homicide investigator did think there was a case. I'm referring to the article I posted above in post #599.

----------


## ENT

> we have that  great machine that tells us that the voice on the recording is about 48% Zimmerman or 52% not Zimmerman....pretty conclusive stuff ...:


If it was Zimmermann on the tape yelling, you'd get more than double the reading he got, higher than 83%, closer to 93-4% reading.

The two audio experts were hired by a newspaper, and allthough well qualified in their work arre not _the_ top experts in their field.
The NSA database team and the linguistics department of any top American university are the real experts on voice analysis.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> 
> we have that  great machine that tells us that the voice on the recording is about 48% Zimmerman or 52% not Zimmerman....pretty conclusive stuff ...:
> 
> 
> If it was Zimmermann on the tape yelling, you'd get more than double the reading he got, higher than 83%, closer to 93-4% reading.
> 
> The two audio experts were hired by a newspaper, and allthough well qualified in their work arre not _the_ top experts in their field.
> The NSA database team and the linguistics department of any top American university are the real experts on voice analysis.


_
"NSA database team"_   I  always wondered what they are called, but Ent knows.
Okay, Ent, who are you, "Get Smart"?  Give us some links and citations to the "NSA database team", Ent, so we can see if you really know who the 'real experts' are and what the percentages are.  You're the guy who made the "one brain two hands" priceless quote earlier so I'm sure you can provide us with some links, right?

Hey, it doesen't matter who the f*#k it is yelling for help *UNLESS someone can PROVE* Zimmerman was lying (doubtful, but, as I've always maintained, "We'll see".)

What matters is this: If Zimmerman can demonstrate that he had a reasonable belief his life was in danger.  Remember, the 48% guy--and he only needs 60% not 83%---had a broken nose and bashed-in head from a guy who called himself '*no-limit-Nigga*' and who texted "*Pls shoot da MF*#ker dat lied 2U!*"

(P.s. 48%, 60%, 83%--none of that matters if Zimmerman can show his broken nose and bashed in skull came from 'no limit nigga' initiating  the attack.)

----------


## Boon Mee

Times Makes Another Major Error In Trayvon Case; Refuses To Correct

Was Zimmerman a paranoid constantly harassing the police with dozens of unfounded 911 calls in a year?

No.

    First, Times reporter Lizette Alvarez reported on March 16 and again on March 20 that Mr. Zimmerman "placed 46 calls to 911 in 14 months"; even NPR eventually noted that those 46 phone calls ran from January 2004 to the present, so "46 calls to 911 in eight years" is the phrase they seek. Yet no correction is appended to either story, nor was the error addressed in their big walkback/walk away piece. Is it relevant to the story? The Times thought so when they reported it, and some might find that it reveals a bit about Mr. Zimmerman's paranoia, or lack thereof.

Maguire notes a series of errors, including the Urban Legend of Zimmerman as a 250 pound bruiser. (He's 170.)

The Times does not acknowledge its new reporting serves as a correction to its old reporting.

Imagine that... ::chitown:: 

Go  here  for more.

----------


## Boon Mee

Are these people wrong or what?

----------


## guyinthailand

Ent, did you draw the crosshairs in the graphics for the poster?

or maybe it was Camel Toe




> Seems like  something a Quaker on a bicycle would revel in.  Maybe we should all go  check the battery in our smoke detectors for a day or two...
> You see this too makes Zimmerman look more thugish.    But whatever the capacity was George thought  one more round was necessary, as do combat soldiers.  George is a  cowboy.

----------


## robuzo

^^It's a bit foolish because now if the prosecutor does decide to move forward with charging Zimmerman- as I think they should have done at the outset even with little chance of making the charges stick when Sanford homicide made the request- it will look like they are bowing to pressure. If Zimmerman had been charged and even set free on bail there is no reason to expect that this kind of brouhaha would be going on. Now it's too late- unless somehow people lose interest over time if there is a trial it will be in the spotlight, and when the shooter walks, as he probably will, things will get ugly, maybe even post-Rodney King trial ugly.

Of course, there is every possibility that the organization that made the poster is complete outlier and of no consequence, but other groups applying pressure in this case should think twice about how they do so.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by koman
> ...


Since you know so little, this is for you, no brain two hand.



*EAVESDROPPING 101: WHAT CAN THE NSA DO?*
The recent revelations about illegal eavesdropping on American citizens by the U.S. National Security Agency have raised many questions about just what the agency is doing. Although the facts are just beginning to emerge, information that has come to light about the NSA's activities and capabilities over the years, as well as the recent reporting by the New York Times and others, allows us to discern the outlines of what they are likely doing and how they are doing it.

The NSA is not only the world's largest spy agency (far larger than the CIA, for example), but it possesses the most advanced technology for intercepting communications. We know it has long had the ability to focus powerful surveillance capabilities on particular individuals or communications. But the current scandal has indicated two new and significant elements of the agency's eavesdropping:

The NSA has gained direct access to the telecommunications infrastructure through some of America's largest companies
The agency appears to be not only targeting individuals, but also using broad "data mining" systems that allow them to intercept and evaluate the communications of millions of people within the United States.
The ACLU has prepared a map (see below) illustrating how all this is believed to work. It shows how the military spying agency has extended its tentacles into much of the U.S. civilian communications infrastructure, including, it appears, the "switches" through which international and some domestic communications are routed, Internet exchange points, individual telephone company central facilities, and ISPs. While we cannot be certain about these secretive links, this chart shows a representation of what is, according to recent reports, the most likely picture of what is going on.

*Other screening techniques.* There may be other techniques that the NSA could be using to pluck out potential targets. One example is *voice pattern analysis, in which computers listen for the sound of, say, Osama Bin Laden's voice. No one knows how accurate the NSA's computers may be at such tasks,* but if commercial attempts at analogous activities such as face recognition are any guide, they would also be likely to generate enormous numbers of false hits. 


NSA Watch | Scandal

----------


## guyinthailand

Hey, Get Smart,

If someone were to measure all the posts that are fluff, and cut and paste, that have absolutely no bearing on the question at hand, you would win the prize.

Your generalized post about the NSA doesn't speak about voice recognition, or the 86%, 93% whateverWhoCares figures you tossed out.

Stop posting bullshit, man!

----------


## ENT

*Apparently you can't read.*

"*Other screening techniques.*............. _One example is voice pattern analysis_, ......... *No one knows how accurate the NSA's computers may be at such tasks,* ..............................."

----------


## koman

I believe that if I were a judge and some dickhead appeared before me presenting "evidence" from his machine that suggested that it "could be Zimmerman at 48% probability" but "was not likely Zimmerman at 52% probability" I would first of all sit back and enjoy watching the defence rip him apart piece by piece, and then advise him to dump his machine in the trash can on the way out..... :Smile: 

Then I would sit back and listen to about a dozen people under oath stating that there was no doubt whatsoever that it was Zimmerman's voice on the recording.

But.. but ..but.. your honor....all the indicators point to the voice of a young man...we can tell from the frequency and amplitude of the secondary cycles.....

.....OH...and do you suppose that a 28 year man is "old"...and that the voice of a 28 year old might not change in pitch and tone a bit if his head was being banged into the ground? 

This is right up with with " cold, moon, soon, doom, gloom" and many other _possible_ things that he _migh_t have said, that have been conjured into "coon"....simply because it fits the racist vigilante profile better. Everybody is grasping a straws.

This is not a case where a man is considered innocent until proven guilty....it has, right from day one been guilty until proven innocent.....all because of a conjured up and sensationalized racist murder, instead of a completely random and unfortunate encounter which went horribly wrong...which seems far more likely, given the overall circumstances; the accuseds lack of history, and lack of motive. 

*Why* would Zimmerman have just shot Martin unless he felt that he was in danger...*what possible reason* would there be other than self defence.... Does anyone seriously think that he just decided to shoot this kid for no reason....knowing the cops were on the way....with his prints on the gun and knowing he was up to his neck in the whole thing? Possible, but highly unlikely surely?

While eveyone is busy trying to analyse the seriousness of Zimmermans head wounds (which are likely not that relevant....he did have wounds but nobody ever said they were serious, and they don't need to be) 

Then we have the "coon" word...and a very problematc voice analysis which ends up with an almost 50/50 split for and against it being Zimmerman. (yes we know it is supposed to be 60% to "prove" that it was him.... but really the analysis "proves" nothing....it just "indicates"...and with a high degree of uncertainty.

This thing is becoming a defence lawyers dream ....unless there is something as yet unknown or un-reported which could shift the advantage to the prosecution...(which as yet has not even decided to proceed)... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## sabang

> This thing is becoming a defence lawyers dream


Only in the Media-what the FBI etc are discovering should be not the least influenced by the tabloid press.

----------


## ENT

*Audio analysis and voice recognition* used in the Zimmerman case.
These two different methods of evaluation give two distinctly separate profiles, which if cross matched, identify a subject very accurately. A match of 60% certainty will result in a "fuzzier" profile than one of 95%
Zimmerman's voice profile did not meet up to the test protocol minimum, so *no match.*, not his voice.on the tape, at all.

*FBI Biometrics*
Speaker, or voice, recognition is a biometric modality that uses an individual’s voice for recognition purposes. 
A popular choice for remote authentication due to the availability of devices for collecting speech samples (e.g., telephone network 

Speaker verification has co-evolved with the technologies of speech recognition and speech synthesis because of similar characteristics and challenges associated with each. 
The physiological component of voice recognition is related to the physical shape of an individual’s vocal tract.
FBI Biometric Center of Excellence: Modalities - Voice

*Audio Experts: Cries For “Help” On 911 Tapes Not Zimmerman’s*
The test results seem to present another blow to Zimmerman’s credibility who claimed that it was his voice on the tape –  and not the African-American teen  — heard crying out for help mere seconds before the fatal gun shot.

It is likely that similar *audio testing is being conducted by the FBI’s Digital Evidence Laboratory’s Forensic Audio,* *Video,* *and Image Analysis Unit,* based in Quantico, Virginia. Should they reach the same conclusions as Owen and Primeau, *Zimmerman would almost* *certainly* *face charges in the death.* _An opposite result would go a long way in substantiating his claim of self-defense.
_
Audio Experts: Cries For “Help” On 911 Tapes Not Zimmerman’s « JONATHAN TURLEY

The FBI via NSA can access Martin's last words on the telephone, and depending on background "noise" can identify the speaker.
That phone call, if analysed, can be used to verify Martin's girlfriend's account of what Martin said to Zimmerman.
Together with the 911 "cries for help" tape analysis, the autopsy, the lack of defence wounds on Martin and eye witness reports of Zimmerman pressing down on Martin's back as he lay dying, Zimmerman's account and defence can be totally refuted.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Together with the 911 "cries for help" tape analysis, the autopsy, the lack of defence wounds on Martin and eye witness reports of Zimmerman pressing down on Martin's back as he lay dying, Zimmerman's account and defence can be totally refuted.



It doesn't matter who some computer program says was crying for help unless prosecutor can show Zimmerman lied about this (highly unlikely Zimmerman and his judge father are lying about that--they know better than anyone what a lie can do to a jury).

"lack of defense wounds on Martin"?  He had a bullet hole in him.  And he probably made the huge mistake of trying to grab Zimmerman's gun, causing it to fire, killing himself.  Oops.  Guess 'no-limit-nigga' (his name for himself)--the one who tweeted 'Pls Shoot da MF*#cker dat lied 2U!"-- found out he had some limits after all.

Has the autopsy report been released yet?  If not, then stop telling everyone what wounds Martin had or didn't have.

Besides, what REALLY counts is the broken nose and bashed in skull of the guy you want to hang.  Now THERE's some defensive wounds.  Why don't you talk about those 'defensive wounds', Ent?  You've been really, really quiet everytime a picture of those wounds is posted.

"Zimmerman pressing down on Martin's back as he lay dying"?  We'll see how reliable those witnesses are.  Plus Zimmerman was trying to either 1) stop the bleeding or 2) make sure Martin  didn't continue his attack on Zimmerman.  Either explanation works in Zimmerman's favor.  Poor Zimmerman, he was trying to be a good citizen, called the cops on a guy creeping around in the rain behind some houses, got attacked by said guy, skull bashed in, nose broken, and Mr Zimmerman was forced to take the life of another human being and even tried to administer first aid to the guy he was forced to shoot.  Or--had to hold the crazed attacker down after the crazed attacker was shot because the crazed attacker continued to try and bash his skull in even after he was shot.  Take your pick: either one is believable.

"Zimmerman's defense can be totally refuted"--Not by you, Ent.  Good thing you're not an attorney.

Oh, and you posted yet another fluff piece about the FBI/NSA without substantiating your claims of 83%, 92% whateverFiguresYouGaveBeforeWhoCaresWhatThePercent  agesAre.

Kind of like your statements earlier about Zimmerman's "false claims vs his valid claims"---remember that, Ent?  Eh?  *You never could back that up*, either.  You made the statement that Zimmerman made FALSE CLAIMS, kind of like Joe McCarthy waving his papers around accusing people of being communists, without having one shred of proof.

But, go ahead, get your lynching rope ready, because the great barrister *Ent is already on record as saying Zimmerman "committed premeditated murder".*

----------


## guyinthailand

> *Why* would Zimmerman have just shot Martin unless he felt that he was in danger...*what possible reason* would there be other than self defence.... Does anyone seriously think that he just decided to shoot this kid for no reason....knowing the cops were on the way....with his prints on the gun and knowing he was up to his neck in the whole thing? Possible, but highly unlikely surely?


Totally agree.

It's like saying Zimmerman was thinking_:

"Hmmm, there's a guy I don't know walking around in the rain behind some houses in our crime-ridden neighborhood, I think I'll call the cops and have them on their way, so as soon as I shoot and kill this poor innocent child the cops can be arriving to take me to jail whenceforth I'll have to hide because Spike Lee has organized a lynching mob and my family will have go into hiding from Spike's tweets and my family will have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on legal bills.  But, wait, before the cops get here, I think I'll bash my head and nose on the curb so it appears I was attacked by the poor innocent child"_

----------


## ENT

^^How long a piece of rope do you want?
Ya can have it as long as ya like.    :mid:

----------


## guyinthailand

> ^^How long a piece of rope do you want?
> Ya can have it as long as ya like.



I know you're salivating to string him up, Ent.  It's been obvious for a long time.

----------


## Camel Toe

I notice when walking my dog in the neighborhood we'll encounter other people walking dogs.  Some dogs will go after my dog for no apparent reason.  And then sometimes my dog will go after others.  Let's assume there is something about some people that puts us at ease, and some things that spark aggression.   

That might explain why I took to Martin and not to Zimmerman.  Might also explain why Zimmerman didn't take to Martin.  

When we're not logged on and in the real world we sense a lot more being there than reading here.  Since George was an authoritarian type no doubt he isn't attracted to signals given off my rebellious types, swagger, strut, half-steppin, hoodies, pants on the ground and on.

IMO Zimmer fooked with Martin for two factors, he didn't like his looks is one.  The other has to do with why a dog licks his balls.

----------


## guyinthailand

*Trayvon Martin shooting: George Zimmerman once protested treatment of homeless black man by police, his father says * 

*Florida neighborhood watch volunteer handed out flyers at black churches*

Comments (62) *                                                                                                                           By                                                                                             David Boroff                                                                                                                                          / NEW  YORK DAILY NEWS                                                                                         * 

*Friday, April 6, 2012, 12:22 AM*

George Zimmerman, the Florida neighborhood watch volunteer who killed Trayvon Martin, had once protested the unfair treatment of a homeless black man by the local police, his father says.

Robert Zimmerman told Sean Hannity  of Fox News on Wednesday night that his son handed out flyers at black  Sanford churches in December 2010, outraged that a police lieutenant's  son was not arrested on the spot after being caught on tape  sucker-punching Sherman Ware.

    Ware was standing on the sidewalk when the cops son, Justin Collison,  came out of a Sanford bar and punched him in the back of the head. The  incident was caught on tape by an observer with a cell phone, but  Collison was not immediately arrested, according to the Orlando  Sentinel.

      Once the video aired on local news stations, George Zimmerman and  others demanded that Collison be arrested and Sanford Police Chief Brian  Tooley be fired, according to the Sentinel.

Then one day after George Zimmerman went to black churches to urge action, Collison was arrested and Tooley was booted. Collison eventually was sentenced to one year of probation.

    In another twist, according to the Sentinel, the sister of Sherman  Ware, the man Collison attacked, took part in a Trayvon rally on March  19 at which protesters called for Zimmerman's arrest.

    "I stand for justice for Trayvon, for Sherman Ware," Tonetta Foster told the newspaper.

    While many believe that George Zimmerman should be arrested, he says he  acted in self-defense on the night of Feb. 26 when he killed the black  teen.

    During the interview with Hannity, Robert Zimmerman said it's  unfortunate that so many people are rushing to judgment against his son.  He would not appear on camera because his family has received death  threats.

    "I just believe it's very sad that so many people are not telling the  truth on purpose for their own agenda," he told Hannity. "I really  thought that we had gotten past a lot of racial problems."


Read more: Trayvon Martin shooting: George Zimmerman once protested treatment of homeless black man by police, his father says [at] - NY Daily News

----------


## guyinthailand

*Mississippi State Student Shot to Death, Obama Unavailable for Comment*



A Mississippi State student was shot and killed over the weekend.  Dont be surprised if you havent heard about this since at least one  of the victims identified is white and the three suspects are blacks,  and could look like Obama if they were his sons or something.


full story here:
Mississippi State Student Shot to Death, Obama Unavailable for Comment | Jammie Wearing Fools

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> ^^How long a piece of rope do you want?
> Ya can have it as long as ya like.   
> 
> 
> 
> I know you're salivating to string him up, Ent.  It's been obvious for a long time.


The rope is for you.

----------


## sabang

I once gave money to an aborigine, so therefore I should not have to account for my actions when I shoot an unarned man dead. Especially if he's black, because I once gave money to a black.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 
Some black dudes shot some whitebread in the same country I live in, so I should not have to account for my actions as a white dude that shoot a black.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 
Do they teach you guys basic Logic over there in the states? I'm thinking not.

----------


## Camel Toe

> Florida neighborhood watch volunteer handed out flyers at black churches


Means absolutely nothing.  Could have been part of his agenda.  Could have been due to his having a good hair day.  Funny how all the good we rack up in life can be erased in the nano second it take to pull a trigger, or slap a wife, or spew a nasty word.

----------


## Cujo

> *Mississippi State Student Shot to Death, Obama Unavailable for Comment*
> 
> 
> 
> A Mississippi State student was shot and killed over the weekend.  Dont be surprised if you havent heard about this since at least one  of the victims identified is white and the three suspects are blacks,  and could look like Obama if they were his sons or something.
> 
> 
> full story here:
> Mississippi State Student Shot to Death, Obama Unavailable for Comment | Jammie Wearing Fools


And I would guess this situation is more normal than whites/hispanics killing blacks.
Why doesn't someone ask these black activists what they intend to do about that?

----------


## ENT

Zimmerman seems to be a bit of a Jekyl and Hyde character.
Friendly and helpful on the one hand, community orientated and so on.
Then he snaps.

Another Zimmerman, authoritarian, impatient, wilful, stubborn and violent.

Although charges were dropped, he'd allready assaulted a police officer and twice assaulted his partner, three offences since 2005.
Then this one.

I get the picture that he likes to have some sort of control over his contacts and community, by being friendly and doing nice things for them, but just can't handle it if things don't go exactly his way and he suddenly gets violent.
No slow build up, but snap, he loses the plot.

That's what I think happened that night, he lost the plot when Martin asked him WTF.
It challenged his authority and what he saw as his orderly world.
Martin didn't conform to his idea of respect for status quo  when he got lippy by asking him what he wanted. 
Too cheeky for George, maybe.
So he flipped.

----------


## robuzo

^Why do you think that matters if true, ENT?

----------


## guyinthailand

Oh my god, Ent, you're right: Zimmerman is an odious human being!  Arrested as a 20 year old drunk when he was drunkenly *TUSSLING* with a cop and oh my god had a problem with his wife (do married people fight and call the cops?  Really?  I didn't know that!)

and he was caught speeding?

*Oh my god, Ent has uncovered some damning evidence that, if revealed at trial, will be devastating  !!!!*

1) 20 years old drunk and (oh no!) while drunk *TUSSLED* with a police officer !!!!
2) called cops on his wife and 
3) speeding.


Lock him up. 
 He's clearly a menace to society!!! 
This proves he murdered Martin!!!

------------

_"Court documents obtained by msnbc.com show that George Zimmerman, the  neighborhood watch volunteer accused of killing 17-year-old Trayvon Martin,  was previously accused of domestic violence, tussling with a police officer  and speeding._ 


_According to the documents, Zimmerman went to court in 2005 and 2006 for these  incidents._ 


_Msnbc.com reports that in 2005, Zimmerman was arrested and charged with  “resisting officer with violence” and “battery of law enforcement officer.”  He was 20 years old at the time and both charges are third-degree felonies._ 


_According to the report, the charges were reduced to “resisting officer  without violence” and then waived when he entered an alcohol education  program. Msnbc.com reports that accounts indicated Zimermann shoved an  officer who was questioning a friend for alleged underage drinking at a bar._ 


_Msnbc.com reports that in 2005, Zimmerman’s ex-fiancee, Veronica Zuazo, filed  a motion for a restraining order and alleged domestic violence. Zimmerman  counterfiled for a restraining order against Zuazo. Both restraining orders’  were granted._ 


_In December 2006, msnbc.com reports that Zimmerman was charged with speeding  -- but the case was later dismissed when the officer failed to show up in  court._ 



Zimmerman of Sanford has past arrest, charges

----------


## guyinthailand

> I once gave money to an aborigine, so therefore I should not have to account for my actions when I shoot an unarned man dead. Especially if he's black, because I once gave money to a black. 
> Some black dudes shot some whitebread in the same country I live in, so I should not have to account for my actions as a white dude that shoot a black. 
> Do they teach you guys basic Logic over there in the states? I'm thinking not.


Nobody is saying Zimmerman shouldn't account for his actions.  What *is* being implied is it is now harder to paint Zimmerman as a racist. Or have you forgotten Spike, Jesse, Al, and the media who have systematically painted Martin as the innocent victim of a racist murderer whose reason (motive) for killing this guy was because he was black?

----------


## ENT

> ^Why do you think that matters if true, ENT?


Because he's gonna do it again when in a similar situation of stress.

He's demonstrated that he's a recrdivist offender who's close to breaching the "3 strikes" policy of serial offending.

----------


## robuzo

^Maybe so. No bearing on this case. By the way, three strikes means three convictions.

----------


## guyinthailand

convicted of three or more _serious_ criminal offenses.

Zimmerman hasn't been convicted of even one.

As usual, Ent is wrong wrong wrong.  At least three times wrong.  

Lock him up.  He's gonna do it again.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Because he's gonna do it again.


Seeing the future is also among Ent's many talents.

----------


## FailSafe

This case is so fucked up- I just saw an interview of a witness on AC360- her face was in shadow and her voice was altered- fair enough (she was obviously in the Martin camp)- after that, they interviewed the _lawyer_ for the witness- the fucking _witness_ has a lawyer who's speaking for her on national TV (she'll no doubt soon be selling interviews to the highest bidder).

----------


## koman

> This case is so fucked up- I just saw an interview of a witness on AC360- her face was in shadow and her voice was altered- fair enough (she was obviously in the Martin camp)- after that, they interviewed the _lawyer_ for the witness- the fucking _witness_ has a lawyer who's speaking for her on national TV (she'll no doubt soon be selling interviews to the highest bidder).


Well at least it shows that America still has the spirit of free enterprise... :Smile: 
A real American can make money anywhere, doing whatever it takes.....and not just the Jews.... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):    Never let a good crisis go to waste....???

----------


## Camel Toe

> Well at least it shows that America still has the spirit of free enterprise


Not true.

All the pix I've seen on TV at various locations and not one som tam cart anywhere in sight.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> Because he's gonna do it again.
> 
> 
> Seeing the future is also among Ent's many talents.


True, to a degree.

----------


## DrAndy

> That's what I think happened that night


nearly 700 posts on this topic and you KNOW nothing

charge the guy, have a trial then you can make any conjectures you like based on evidence

----------


## ENT

^ :dont feed the troll:

----------


## ENT

*Zimmerman's latest cry.*
It's getting pathetic.

A newly hired defense lawyer for George Zimmerman suggested his client may have suffered injuries similar to Shaken Baby Syndrome following an alleged attack by Trayvon Martin.

“One of the points people have said, the force [used against Martin] was too much, even if he broke his nose and slammed his head into the ground,” attorney Hal Uhrig said during an appearance on “CBS This Morning.”

Read more: Trayvon Martin case: George Zimmerman

The two lawyers working to defend Zimmeman are _really_ trying to play the sympathy card this time.

The guy is an arsehole, that's pretty undeniable, but trying to get him off on a "my poor baby" card is pathetic.
What happened on the "stand your ground" and  "I'm a responsible adult" attitude?

The guy's got minor injuries, but shaken baby syndrome?
How smart are these lawyers really?

----------


## Camel Toe

> The guy's got minor injuries, but shaken baby syndrome?
> How smart are these lawyers really?


Oh they're smart enough.  But all it shows is they haven't a case .. do you know about the famous Twinky Defense?   Just in case you or a reader doesn't, it was a plea addressing the fact a steady diet of trashy junk foods can cause temporary insanity.

----------


## ENT

Crazy! I've always wondered about the American justice system and how some lawyers get away with the arguments they present before a judge. In some countries, notably UK, the lawyers would be held in contempt of court for insulting the judge's as well as the public intelligence with some of their antics, drama to the max!. 

I suppose everyone loves a circus and a constitution guaranteeing freedom of expression allows for that sort of thing, but oh, what a horse show at times!

Seeing that Corey is going to decide if there's a case to answer is definitely a step in the right direction to cut out all the waste of time and money.
Drama queen wannabe Hollywood star lawyers are another problem though, real hocus pocus merchants.

----------


## Camel Toe

Another famous case:  Santa Cruz, California:

A 400-pound woman applies for a job as a sales clerk in a health food store.  The owner turns her down.  She goes to court and claims she was discriminated.  The owner's defense is that she doesn't look healthy and that she couldn't even fit her phat arse between the aisles.  She won.  She got the job and the store had to widen the aisles and reenforce the shelf-stacking ladder.

----------


## ENT

Totally nuts! PC gone mad1
The laws of litigation re, defamation etc in USA are also bizarre, people seem to be forever running around suing each other for this and that and paying out heaps in insurance for near on everything.

I blame the senate and the millions of lawyers and insurance agencies for a lot of America's problems.
I also note that Zimmerman's job was in insurance and that he was studying for a criminal law degree, both occupations(law and insurance) seem to be attractive to criminal types wanting to roll someone over a barrel.

A combination of the two occupations plus a gun, with the "stand your ground" law behind it, is a recipe for a successful carreer as a loan shark, or a stand over swindler selling "protection".

----------


## guyinthailand

_"Shaken baby syndrome (SBS) is a triad of medical symptoms: subdural hematoma, retinal hemorrhage, and brain swelling from which doctors, consistent with current medical understanding ...caused by intentional shaking. In a majority of cases there is no visible sign of external trauma.

"SBS is often fatal and can cause severe brain damage, resulting in lifelong disability.... Nonfatal consequences of SBS include varying degrees of visual impairment (including blindness), motor impairment (e.g. cerebral palsy) and cognitive impairments"._

Shaken baby syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



*Yeah, you guys are right:* repeatedly smashing Zimmerman's head
 on the ground 
couldn't possibly cause any injuries.

----------


## Cujo

> *Shaken baby syndrome* (*SBS*) is a triad of medical symptoms: subdural hematoma, retinal hemorrhage, and brain swelling from which doctors, consistent with current medical understanding, infer child abuse caused by intentional shaking. In a majority of cases there is no visible sign of external trauma.
>  SBS is often fatal and can cause severe brain damage, resulting in lifelong disability. Estimated death rates (mortality)  among infants with SBS range from 15% to 38%; the median is 20%25%. Up  to half of deaths related to child abuse are reportedly due to shaken  baby syndrome.[1] Nonfatal consequences of SBS include varying degrees of visual impairment (including blindness), motor impairment (e.g. cerebral palsy) and cognitive impairments.
> 
> Shaken baby syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> *Yeah, you guys are right:* repeatedly smashing Zimmerman's head
>  on the ground 
> couldn't possibly cause any of the above injuries.


In an adult, unless it was extreme and prolonged, no.
My understanding is the visible injuries were minimal.

----------


## guyinthailand

> My understanding is the visible injuries were minimal.







> In an adult, unless it (shaking) was extreme and prolonged (could not cause injuries).


Even a 'whiplash' injury in a car crash can jar the brain enough to cause permanent injury in an adult or child.

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> 
> My understanding is the visible injuries were minimal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First of all note, I have corrected your amendment of my quote.
OK, but why do they call it 'whiplash' and not 'shaken baby syndrome'?
Why don't they use the term 'whiplash' in this case?
Why are the calling it 'Shaken baby syndrome'?
Ridiculous.
The lawyers are getting fat off this one.

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> 
> My understanding is the visible injuries were minimal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Also, we're not talking about 'whiplash' here, we're talking about 'shaken baby syndrome'.
Quite different injuries.

----------


## Camel Toe

> I blame the senate and the millions of lawyers and insurance agencies for a lot of America's problems.


The Supreme Court mate.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Also, we're not talking about 'whiplash' here, we're talking about 'shaken baby syndrome'.
> Quite different injuries.


Actually, what we're talking about is the many different ways the brain can be injured from being shaken or pounded, both of which it appears Martin did to Zimmerman.  Zimmerman's attorneys rightfully called attention to the huge body of medical literature on the dangers to the brain when shaken.  

*'Whiplash', 'shaken', 'pounded'...take your pick, they all can cause serious, life-threatening, lifelong injuries.

If someone were inflicting those injuries on you 
I think there is a good chance 
you would employ your right to self-defense.*


*Whiplash Causes Brain Damage in 23 % of Cases*

                                               "A new study published in the July issue of the journal _Brain Injury_, (“_Chiari and Whiplash Injury_,”  co-authored by Ezriel E. Kornel, M.D. F.A.C.S., Michael D. Freeman,  Ph.D., et al.) concludes that whiplash may also cause anatomical changes  that can result in* brain injury*.   Whiplash, or acceleration/deceleration forces on the head and neck,  commonly occurs following motor vehicle crashes.  

"There is little  dispute that a motor vehicle crash can cause injuries to the neck,  however, even though the same forces cause the brain to be thrust back  and forth within the skull, some docotors have been reluctant to  acknowledge an association between car crashes and brain damage.

"The study, one of the few to look at the connection between whiplash  and brain injury, examined the MRI scans of 1200 neck pain patients and  found that those patients suffering from whiplash were more likely to  have anatomical changes to the brain resulting in brain injury,  specifically, a herniation of the brain called Chiari malformation, in  which the bottom part of the brain (the cerebellum) dips through an  opening in the base of the skull after a whiplash injury. Preliminary  findings showed that brain injury occurred in 23% of the whiplash cases  studied. 

"One of the co-authors, Dr. Kornel, said that “[Chiari] can be quite  painful and endanger the patient’s health, with symptoms that may  include headaches, neck pain, upper extremity numbness and tingling, and  weakness. In a few cases, there can also be lower extremity weakness  and brain dysfunction.” Dr. Kornel advises anyone suffering from  whiplash to see a physician immediately.  Dr. Kornel is with the Brain  & Spine Surgeons of New York and serves on the board of directors of  the American Association of Neurological Surgeons".

Whiplash Causes Brain Damage in 23% of Cases | Richmond Personal Injury Lawyer

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> 
> Also, we're not talking about 'whiplash' here, we're talking about 'shaken baby syndrome'.
> Quite different injuries.
> 
> 
> Actually, what we're talking about is the many different ways the brain can be injured from being shaken or pounded, both of which it appears Martin did to Zimmerman.  Zimmerman's attorneys rightfully called attention to the huge body of medical literature on the dangers to the brain when shaken.  
> 
> ...


Well it's a fucking good job that wetback shot that nigger then isn't it.
I don't understand what all the fuss is about, it don't involve us white people.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Well it's a fucking good job that wetback shot that nigger then isn't it.
> I don't understand what all the fuss is about, it don't involve us white people.


This is the kind of intelligent discussion we need more of on Teakdoor.

----------


## blue

^
^^
it took us over 600 posts to hit the nail on the head.
perhaps we had better call it a day ..

----------


## attaboy

> Originally Posted by attaboy
> 
> The photo probably doesn't represent the best interests of their clients.
> 
> 
>  You've got it- the same game is being played by both sides, in a court of public opinion rather than law.
> 
>  The racial question can probably be summarised in one sentence- If  Trayvon Martin was a white kid walking back home from 711, would he now  be dead?


 If he got in a wrestling match over a gun he might well be dead.

 If he beat someone who had a gun he might well be dead. 





> _
> 
> Short:  And Im curious as to why the phone records for Mr. Zimmermans phone havent been made public? Im wondering if he called his father and his father called [Florida State Attorney] Norman Wolfinger?_ 
> PressTV - ?US ideology driven by exploitation, massacre of populations?


The story originating from Iranian national news, I'd discount the  Jewish conspiracy. The state prosecutor probably has a tight lid on all  information pertaining to the case.  A list of the father's calls would  be interesting to know. I watched the interview the father gave on Hannity.  I doubt he is a magistrate.  He doesn't sound well educated.





> The Miami Herald has a 4 page story about the event: What is known, what isn't about Trayvon Martins death - Miami-Dade - MiamiHerald.com
> 
> 
> 
> Zimmerman spent almost two more minutes offering directions to the operator. He said hed meet police by the mailboxes and then, just before hanging up, apparently thought better of it. Actually, could you have him call me, and Ill tell him where Im at? he said three minutes and 50 seconds into the call. At 7:15, he hung up .
> 
> Lawyers for Trayvons family say Zimmermans decision not to wait for police by the mailboxes and instead be reached by phone proves he planned to keep looking for the teen instead of simply waiting for a patrol car.


According to Zimmerman he continued on the path till he got to the street and the front of the townhouses so he could get a street address from one of them which he planned to relay to police as the last known whereabouts of the suspect.  While walking back to his vehicle Trayvon approached from a side path. 

this is a supposed map with a supposed key to sites:




*Key:*
 A  The Clubhouse for Retreat at Twin Lakes.
B  Community mailboxes.
C  Where George Zimmerman parked his truck.
D  Brandy Greens Townhouse, where Trayvon was staying.
E  Zimmerman stopped and completed his 911 call for approximately eighty seconds.
F  The fight and shooting took place in this area.
G  Eyewitness Johns townhouse.

What we don't know is where Trayvon's body was found.  Was it near Zimmerman's vehicle or was it down the side path as indicated on the map.  If it was down the path in between the townhouses then it would indicate Zimmerman was following after Trayvon.  If the body was on the path leading back to Zimmerman's vehicle then Zimmerman's version could be true.

----------


## attaboy

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> That's what I think happened that night
> 
> 
> nearly 700 posts on this topic and you KNOW nothing
> 
> charge the guy, have a trial then you can make any conjectures you like based on evidence


First, have a grand jury review the prosecutor's evidence. Let the GJ determine whether there is enough to charge Zimmerman with.  I see no reason why to charge Zimmerman if there is not enough evidence to go forward with. I think it would be unfair to charge Zimmerman and then expect him to spend the time and money to prove his innocence.  That's the French legal system isn't it?

----------


## attaboy

> Owen, a court-qualified expert witness and former chief engineer for the New York Public Library's Rodgers and Hammerstein Archives of Recorded Sound, is an authority on biometric voice analysis  a computerized process comparing attributes of voices to determine whether they match.
> 
> After the Sentinel contacted Owen, he used software called Easy Voice Biometrics to compare Zimmerman's voice to the 911 call screams.
> 
> "I took all of the screams and put those together, and cut out everything else," Owen says.
> 
> The software compared that audio to Zimmerman's voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he'd expect higher than 90 percent.
> 
> "As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen says, stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon's, because he didn't have a sample of the teen's voice to compare.
> ...


  Google search revealed:



> Jan 26, 2012 *Voice Biometrics Poised For a Comeback in Fraud Prevention*
> 
> 
> Voice biometrics has had its share of starts and stops as an anti-fraud and authentication tool in the past decade...
> 
> Opus Research, a San Francisco company working with ValidSoft on an  upcoming research report, says voice biometrics has not taken hold  because of past technology failures, product shortcomings and pricing  issues, as well as the security industry's failure to demonstrate past  successes...
> 
> "Providers were barking up the wrong tree in viewing voice biometrics as  a single-factor authentication mechanism because all single mechanisms  fall short in some manner," says Dan Miller, Opus Research senior  analyst and author of the report...
> 
> "If the voice is iffy for some reason, because of illness or a recent  surgery, the institution has the other levels of security that come into  play," Carroll says. "It shows again that voice is only one factor."


from Prisontalk forum



> 01-11-2011, 06:56 AM 			 			 			
>      Quote:
>                                                                       Originally Posted by *lovin_banks*  
> _well my boyfriend failed the voice  biometrics..does anyone know how long it will take for him to re record  his voice and get it done all over again? ugh..im so frustrated please  anyone please let me know if you have experienced this before_
> 
> That sucks!! Did he have a cold or not speaking clearly? I haven't  heard of anyone going through that. Perhaps someone who has will come  along and give you some advice. I wouldn't imagine that they would take  too long to let him redo it. I hope it happens soon for you girl!!

----------


## guyinthailand

> I see no reason why to charge Zimmerman if there is not enough evidence to go forward with. I think it would be unfair to charge Zimmerman and then expect him to spend the time and money to prove his innocence.


It doesn't matter what the evidence is because you got illuminaries like Ent, Spike, Sharpton, Jesse, who have already accused Zimmerman of "premeditated murder".

----------


## ENT

> I blame the senate and the millions of lawyers and insurance agencies for a lot of America's problems.
> 			
> 		
> 
> The Supreme Court mate.


Point taken, as that is where the drama of law is can be ultimately decided upon, but the legislature embodied in the Senate is where laws are formulated, hammered out and passed.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but the Senate, in my opinion, as the factory of US laws, is the source of the problem, while the interpretation of the law is finally adjudicated on and ratified in the Supreme court, which hasn't the authority to change the law itself.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by DrAndy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by ENT
> ...


All points that you raise in this post, I think are valid, except one.
 "I think it would be unfair to charge Zimmerman and then expect him to spend the time and money to prove his innocence,"

In French law, a person is presumed guilty until proven innocent, while in UK and US law he is presumed innocent until proven guilty.
The accused must be able to refute the accusations in the charge laid against him as decided by a GJ or a State Attorney.

In this particular case, whatever a GJ decides is going to have a negative effect on the populace, the case is too divisive.
Properly, the State Attorney should decide, as a jury of peers will be too emotionally driven to make a clearly logical decision.

In UK and other commonwealth countries, a defence lawyer is assigned to the accused, usually gratis, if he can not pay for one.
In America, the more money you have, the greater the chance you have of hiring a good court room lawyer to get you off.
That way the poor get done over completely in the US while in UK the accused has a fair chance of defence.
The circus gymnastics of high profile or fame seeking lawyers (which often over-sensationalise the evidences and arguments)are not so evident in UK courts as in US ones. 

Zimmerman is entitled to a fair trial and defence if this case goes to court and the charge(s) laid and evidence permitted are going to be interesting to find out when Attorney Angela Corey finally rules.

----------


## Boon Mee



----------


## ENT

That's what's clouding the issue.

----------


## guyinthailand

April 7, 2012 9:47 PM 
*Source: NBC producer fired over Zimmerman 911 call*

         NEW YORK — NBC News has fired a producer for editing a recording of  George Zimmerman's call to police the night he shot Trayvon Martin, a  person with direct knowledge of the matter said Saturday.

The  person was not authorized to talk about the situation publicly and spoke  on the condition of anonymity. The identity of the producer was not  disclosed.

An NBC spokeswoman declined to comment.

The producer's dismissal followed an internal investigation that led to NBC apologizing for having aired the misleading audio.

NBC's  "Today" show first aired the edited version of Zimmerman's call on  March 27. *The recording viewers heard* was trimmed to suggest that  Zimmerman volunteered to police, with no prompting, that Martin was  black: "This guy looks like he's up to no good. He looks black."
*
But  the portion of the tape that was deleted had the 911 dispatcher asking  Zimmerman if the person who had raised his suspicion was "black, white  or Hispanic,"* to which Zimmerman responded, "He looks black."

Later  that night of Feb. 26, the 17-year-old Martin was fatally shot by  Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer in Sanford, Fla. Though Martin  was unarmed, Zimmerman told police he fired in self-defense after  Martin attacked him.

Questions subsequently have arisen over  whether Zimmerman was racially profiling the teen, a theory the edited  version of the tape seemed to support.

On Tuesday, NBC said its  investigation turned up "an error made in the production process that we  deeply regret." It promised that "necessary steps" would be taken "to  prevent this from happening in the future" and apologized to viewers.

----------


## Boon Mee

Call Off the Race-Baiters George Zimmerman Passed Lie Detector Test Immediately After Shooting

George Zimmerman passed a voice stress test, a type of lie detector test, immediately following the Trayvon Martin shooting.

    George Zimmermans defense team is growing, suggesting that hes planning for a grand jury indictment and a subsequent criminal trial. Interestingly, his new attorney has begun releasing some previously unknown facts.

    Did you know that, on the night of Trayvon Martins death, Sanford police gave George Zimmerman a voice stress test?

    They did, and the results probably contributed to his release.

    A voice stress test is like a polygraph, but instead of measuring heart rate and blood pressure, it looks for changes in an individuals voice patterns that are thought to suggest psychological stress. With the help of software, investigators record a suspect answering baseline questions and then compare them to answers about the case.

    This technology is not unique to Sanford. The National Institute for Truth Verification, a manufacturer of the technology, claims that over 1,800 local, state and federal law enforcement agencies use their product. They also claim to have trained U.S. Military personnel.

    George Zimmermans voice stress test came out clean, according to attorney Hal Uhrig. 

Police Gave George Zimmerman Voice Stress Test | Reuters

Zimmerman Passed Lie Detector Test Immediately After Shooting « Pat Dollard

Maybe it's time the Obummer called off his race-baiters, eh?

----------


## ENT

All good stuff, bring it all on, for the truth releases us.

----------


## ENT

^^NBC is not the authority of the 911 call tapes. they simply published their spin.

The actual tape audios have already been posted on an earlier post by me.

----------


## guyinthailand

You miss the point yet again, Ent. 

No one is claiming NBC is 'the authority'.

What is being claimed is *NBC fanned the* flames of racial hatred (and got guys like you all worked up along with millions of others) when they *FALSELY, MALICIOUSLY* edited the 911 tape to make it *SOUND AS IF Zimmerman was a racist.*

----------


## ENT

*As worked up as this?*
If he had *the balls,* would he be able to use "the stand your ground" law in this case?

tape
*Talk about a ball buster*.
An Indiana man was rushed to the hospital Wednesday after his scrotum was the victim of a vicious attack by an ex-girlfriend, The *Smoking Gun* reports.
The victim told police that his former girlfriend, Christina Reber, stormed into his apartment as he was innocently sitting at his computer. Reber, who he had severed ties with a few days earlier, first struck him on the head and then grabbed his scrotum and began “squeezing as hard as she could.” Naturally, he told officers that he “was in incredible pain when [she] grabbed his scrotum and began digging in her fingers.”
The police report indicates that the scrotum area was “completely torn loose from his body.” Reber reportedly “refused to let go of his scrotum,” but that the victim was finally able to remove his balls from her vice-like grip.
As if the story isn’t already good enough, the victim, who has not been identified, was taken to *BALL MEMORIAL* HOSPITAL. As far as we know, the hospital is not only for scrotum-specific injuries.
In an interview two days after the incident, the man told police that after his ex was done breaking his balls, his family jewels are so swollen that he is unable to work, and *he isn’t sure if there will be permanent damage*.
Reber was charged with two felonies: aggravated battery and illegally entering the victim’s home. She was also charged with a misdemeanor domestic battery.

Balls.

----------


## ENT

*Or this?*

*Armed Neo-Nazis Patrolling Sanford*
The Huffington Post  |  
Posted: 04/ 6/2012 6:01 pm Updated: 04/ 6/2012 6:40 pm

Since the Trayvon Martin story has received national attention, Sanford, Fla. has gone from a virtually unknown city to the center of the spotlight. Now, a group of neo-Nazis are patrolling the area, saying they are "prepared" for violence in case a race riot ensues, the Miami New Times reports.

The Detroit-based group said they are not advocating violence, but instead are responding to white residents' fear of a race riot.

"Whenever there is one of these racially charged events, Al Sharpton goes wherever blacks need him," Commander Jeff Schoep of the National Socialist Movement told the news outlet. "We do similar things. We are a white civil rights organization."

Didn't take too long for this crowd to show up.

----------


## guyinthailand

a post about scrotum injuries in reply to my post that one of the biggest media companies in the world deliberately misled millions by character assassination when they made it appear Zimmerman was a racist when he wasn't.  Are you on amphetamines, Ent?  Your posts are totally irrelevant, off-topic and absurd.

NBC caused rabid dogs like you to get all worked up over a self-defense shooting.  NBC made people like you think this was a racist killing and you and others have subsequently said Zimmerman is guilty of "premeditated murder'--partly because of this NBC lie.

----------


## ENT

Both of my above posts were_ not_ in reply to yours.
Post #707 was a high flyer.
Post #708 is completely relevant to this thread. 
The polarising of opinions re. this case under discussion bears scrutiny.

----------


## guyinthailand

> The polarising of opinions re. this case under discussion bears scrutiny.


You mean like your accusing Zimmerman of being a premeditated racist murderer? And how you've thrown out FALSE ACCUSATIONS such as your baseless claim saying Zimmerman made 'false claims'? Like saying Zimmerman stalked Martin and attacked him without provocation?  Like your claim that Zimmerman had no right to self defense even though Martin pounded his head and broke his nose?  Like your many other statements trying to fan the flames of racial hatred by automatically assuming Zimmerman is at fault?

Is that what you're referring to?

Don't worry, Ent, your (polarizing) opinions--and that is all they are, opinions as you can't back up much of what you say--your opinions have been scrutinized.

----------


## ENT

Carry on, you're making a total fool of yourself as usual.

----------


## sabang

> Like your claim that Zimmerman had no right to self defense even though Martin pounded his head and broke his nose?


This 'broke his nose' claim is being thrown around like confetti, and whilst I am not going to pretend to know if it is the truth or not, a simple Xray will determine if Zimmerman did or didn't have his nose broken. So lets see it.

Of the two directly involved parties, one is dead. So you might say his right of free speech and ability to give testimony has been abrogated. A degree of scepticism about the claims of the surviving party, who fatally shot the other, unarmed party is certainly warranted- and there is absolutely nothing racist about that.

----------


## guyinthailand

The Zimmerman's continue, I think, to maintain George suffered a broken nose.  Would they lie about this and hurt his chances at trial?  Doubt it.  But we'll see: you never know.

And Martin lost his free speech?  I think free speech was the last thing on his mind as he tried to kill Zimmerman that night.

----------


## ENT

[QUOTE=guyinthailand;2067600]






Martin tried to run away and Zimmerman followed him, according to what Zimmerman told 911.

According to Martin’s girlfriend, who was on the phone with him moments before he was shot, Martin asked Zimmerman, “Why are you following me?” Zimmerman replied, “What are you doing around here?” Then the phone went dead.

A fight apparently started at that point.

In the above photo, Zimmerman has two obvious injuries high up on his head, just rear of the crown, not lower down at the occiput, the protuding part of the back of a human skull.

Those injuries, starting above the occiput,  proceed upwards towards the crown. Or conversely proceed from the rear of the crown downwards towards the occiput.                                                                                                                                         Thus not evidence of direct blows at near 90 degrees to the back of the head, but rather of blows downward or upwards towards the back of the head.

The injuries shown are not consistent with having his head smashed directly downwards onto the concrete path while lying flat on his back.

The angle of Zimmerman's head  would have had to be turned  from 25-30 degrees further down and backwards from horizontal for those injuries to have been the result of his head being smashed downwards onto the concrete.  
This is humanly impossible if he was on his back with Martin on top of him.

Zimmerman's wounds are more consistent with having been struck two glancing blows downwards from a point above and behind his head.

----------


## S Landreth

Prosecutor: No grand jury for Trayvon Martin case

A special prosecutor has ruled out the use of a grand jury in the Trayvon Martin case.

State Attorney Angela Coreys decision is not to be considered a factor in whether charges are eventually brought against George Zimmerman, Corey's office said in a statement. 

The grand jury, which was scheduled by a previous prosecutor, was set to convene on Tuesday in Sanford, Fla.  

That means the decision whether to prosecute Zimmerman, 28, for Martins death now rests with Coreys office. The case is also under investigation by the U.S. Justice Department and the FBI.

snip

"We are not surprised by this announcement and, in fact, are hopeful that a decision will be reached very soon to arrest George Zimmerman and give Trayvon Martin's family the simple justice they have been seeking all along," said a statement released by Martin's attorney.

"The family has been patient throughout this process and asks that those who support them do the same during this very important investigation."

link: U.S. News - Prosecutor: No grand jury for Trayvon Martin case

----------


## alwarner

[quote=ENT;2068711]


> Martin tried to run away and Zimmerman followed him, according to what Zimmerman told 911.
> 
> According to Martins girlfriend, who was on the phone with him moments before he was shot, Martin asked Zimmerman, Why are you following me? Zimmerman replied, What are you doing around here? Then the phone went dead.
> 
> A fight apparently started at that point.
> 
> In the above photo, Zimmerman has two obvious injuries high up on his head, just rear of the crown, not lower down at the occiput, the protuding part of the back of a human skull.
> 
> Those injuries, starting above the occiput,  proceed upwards towards the crown. Or conversely proceed from the rear of the crown downwards towards the occiput.                                                                                                                                         Thus not evidence of direct blows at near 90 degrees to the back of the head, but rather of blows downward or upwards towards the back of the head.
> ...


Into the ground, yes.  Impossible.  Imagine him fllat on his back in the gutter with the edge of a pavement behind him, then it is possible.

Not looking to get involved.

Just a thought.

 :Smile:

----------


## ENT

Agree, possible, although no gutter as such is evident in any of the pics.

----------


## ENT

> *Prosecutor: No grand jury for Trayvon Martin case*
> *"We are not surprised by this announcement* and, in fact, are hopeful that a decision will be reached very soon to arrest George Zimmerman and give Trayvon Martin's family the simple justice they have been seeking all along," said a statement released by Martin's attorney.


I'm not surprised either.

----------


## alwarner

> Agree, possible, although no gutter as such is evident in any of the pics.


Ah right.  I haven't been following it that closely.

Cheers.

----------


## S Landreth

> Originally Posted by S Landreth
> 
> 
> *Prosecutor: No grand jury for Trayvon Martin case*
> *"We are not surprised by this announcement* and, in fact, are hopeful that a decision will be reached very soon to arrest George Zimmerman and give Trayvon Martin's family the simple justice they have been seeking all along," said a statement released by Martin's attorney.
> 
> 
> I'm not surprised either.


Got a feeling he'll be charged this week. She doesn't need the help of a grand jury to make the decision.

----------


## ENT

True, she doesn't, she's a straight shooter judging by her track record.

----------


## S Landreth

story from the Herald,.........

The special prosecutor assigned to investigate the Trayvon Martin case will not be using a grand jury to determine whether to arrest George Zimmerman, her office confirmed Monday morning.

The former prosecutor on the case, Seminole County State Attorney Norm Wolfinger, had elected to use a grand jury, and had scheduled the group to meet on Tuesday.

Duval County State Attorney Angela Corey told The Miami Herald in an interview last month that she did not expect to need a grand jury, and would likely make the decision on whether or not to charge Zimmerman herself.

I always lean towards moving forward without needing the grand jury in a case like this, Corey said last month. I foresee us being able to make a decision, and move on it on our own.

On Monday, her office confirmed that no grand jury would be used in the case.

In Florida, the decision on whether to indict someone in capital cases must be made by a grand jury. In all lesser cases the decision to file charges are routinely made by prosecutors. But in highly controversial or difficult cases, prosecutors often defer to a grand jury, leaving the politically charged decision to a panel of citizens

Coreys office pointed out that the decision not to take the case to a grand jury should not be taken as an indication of which way shes going to decide.

The decision should not be considered a factor in the final determination of the case, her office said in a release.

Benjamin Crump, an attorney for Trayvons parents, issued a statement after Coreys decision Monday.

We are not surprised by this announcement and, in fact, are hopeful that a decision will be reached very soon to arrest George Zimmerman and give Trayvon Martin's family the simple justice they have been seeking all along, Crump said.

Trayvon, 17, was shot and killed by Zimmerman on Feb. 26 while walking through a Sanford neighborhood where he was visiting. Sanford police opted not to arrest Zimmerman, who claimed self-defense. After public outcry, Gov. Rick Scott assigned Corey, the state attorney for Duval, Nassau and Clay counties, to take over the case on March 22.

link: Prosecutor: No grand jury for Trayvon case - Trayvon Martin - MiamiHerald.com

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> Agree, possible, although no gutter as such is evident in any of the pics.
> 
> 
> Ah right.  I haven't been following it that closely.
> 
> Cheers.


Just to follow the point, (post #718 above);
The apparent lacerations shown, are aligned longitudinally to the head, so if the gutter kerb was also parallel with his head and torso, it would align with those lacerations shown.

This still does not indicate the angle of strike as coming from a directly downward thrust of Zimmerman's head, the angle is still wrong.

He would have to have been lying on the lawn, on his side, at an angle of approximately 25-30 degrees to the footpath for his head to be able to make contact with the (presumed) edge of the gutter to cause those wounds

----------


## sabang

I suspect this image has been 'enhanced' actually.



Straight from the police station CCTV-





Not that it matters. The judicial decision will not be made in the tabloid media, or by it's rabid adherents. Certainly, if there was scuffle prior to the shooting it will act in Zimmerman's favor against a charge of First degree murder. Some sort of manslaughter conviction is more likely, if the shooting is not considered justifiable self defence.

----------


## alwarner

^^Unlikely then, unless of course he lied in the first place about being supine and was in fact curling up like a baby because the bad black man was about to give him a whooping he hadn't counted on...

 :Wink: 

cheers...

----------


## ENT

If that was the case then _he_ would be yelling for help, not Martin.  :Smile:

----------


## ENT

^^^The reported scuffle won't necessarily act in Zimmerman's favour if he instigated it as is possibly indicated in Trayvon Martin's last words on the phone.

Martin's girlfriend reported Martin as saying that Zimmerman was following him and she told him to run, which he decided not to.                                                                                             She then said that she heard Martin say, ” What are you following me for?”                                                                            Zimmerman replied, ” What are you doing around here?”.                                                                                                        Then she heard Martin’s earpiece hit the ground and the line went dead.

Martin doesn't sound like the aggressor in that scenario.

----------


## Boon Mee

*Zimmerman Launches Website For Supporters, Solicits Donations For Legal Defense*




The site  is almost impossible to access because the host company didnt have him  on a server powerful enough to handle the traffic. It can be seen via Google cache


 The man at the center of a firestorm over his shooting of an unarmed  Florida teenager has launched a website, warning supporters about  groups that falsely claim to be raising funds for his defense and  soliciting donations for himself. 
I am the real George Zimmerman, declares the website, set up over the weekend.
 On Sunday February 26th, I was involved in a life altering event  which led me to become the subject of intense media coverage. As a  result of the incident and subsequent media coverage, I have been forced  to leave my home, my school, my employer, my family and ultimately, my  entire life. This websites sole purpose is to ensure my supporters they  are receiving my full attention without any intermediaries.
 The statement posted on therealgeorgezimmerman.com warns viewers that  some persons and/or entities have been collecting funds, thinly veiled  as my Defense Fund or Legal Fund. I cannot attest to the validity  of these other websites as I have not received any funds collected,  intended to support my family and I through this trying, tragic time.
 But the site includes a link through which viewers can donate money  to pay for Zimmermans lawyers and living expenses in lieu of my forced  inability to maintain employment. Zimmerman pledges to personally  maintain accountability of all funds received.
 I am grateful to my friends that have come to my aid, whether  publicly or personally, never questioning my integrity or actions,  understanding that I cannot discuss the details of the event on February  26th, and allowing law enforcement to proceed with their investigation  unhindered, the 28-year-old Zimmerman wrote on another of the sites  pages. Once again, I thank you for your patience and I assure you, the  facts will come to light.
 Until now, only friends and relatives have come forward to speak on  Zimmermans behalf. His attorneys have said he wants to share his story  but cant, because of threats to his safety and the possibility of  criminal charges.
 Zimmermans lawyers and a friend confirmed the authenticity of the  website. The friend, Frank Taaffe, told CNN sister network HLN that  while the site is being used to raise funds for a legal defense, it  doesnt mean Zimmerman expects to be charged in connection with Martins  death.


Zimmerman speaks, raises funds on new website - CNN.com

Any bets on whether or not he walks scot-free?

----------


## Boon Mee

*WaPo Blames Trayvon Martin Shooting On Dirty Harry Movies*

Liberals are indeed very deranged people


Of all the people to blame for the Trayvon Martin shooting, Dirty  Harry? On Sunday, Washington Post film critic Ann Hornaday had an  article splashed across the front of the Outlook section. Next to a  Dirty Harry photo were the words America loves a vigilante. Until we meet one. George Zimmerman has undercut the mythology of the lone avenger.
 Hornaday began her dismissal of America like this: Of the countless  stories we tell ourselves, the American myth of the solitary enforcer of  justice may be the most tenacious, beloved and  as the story of George  Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin has so grievously demonstrated   distorting.
 Bizarrely, Hornaday conflated action heroes from Dirty Harry to  Spiderman to Batman (and comedic characters like Ben Stiller in the  forthcoming comedy Neighborhood Watch) to the KKK.


WashPost Blames Trayvon Shooting On...Dirty Harry Movies? | NewsBusters.org

----------


## ENT

I see they're still using an old picture of Zimmerman when he was younger and plumper, probably from his college year book.

Recent shots of Zimmerman are of a much leaner man, solidly built and muscled.
Even the videos shows he's not plump at all, but well built, someone fit and strong.

So now his lawyers have cobbled together a smooth PR rave as a begging letter, not so much for Zimmerman's sake, but to feed _themselves_, as they are doing this case _pro bono_.

Does every defendant in America do this when they have to defend themselves in court?
What about poor people on welfare who have to answer criminal charges?                                                                            Do _they_ get fancy lawyers for free and then ask for more cash from the public?
Doesn't Zimmerman get welfare too?

----------


## alwarner

U.S. News - Zimmerman attorneys withdraw from Trayvon Martin case



The attorneys for George Zimmerman, Craig Sonner and Hal Uhrig,  said Tuesday they have lost touch with their client and are withdrawing  from the case.
Uhrig said in a news conference that the legal team  heard that Zimmerman on Tuesday had contacted a special prosecutor who  will decide whether or not to press charges against him, against their  advice.
They said they have not talked to Zimmerman, whose  location is not known, in person. “We can’t represent him unless he  comes forward and asks us,” Uhrig said.
"We have a pretty good idea where he (Zimmerman) is," Uhrig said, but added that Zimmerman is not answering the phone.
  The attorneys also expressed concern about Zimmerman's "emotional and  physical safety" and said they have reservations about a website  Zimmerman set up to solicit money for help in his defense.
Zimmerman is the neighborhood watch volunteer who has admitted to fatally shooting unarmed black teen Trayvon Martin in Florida.
Zimmerman is the focal point in two separate investigations into the death of Martin, 17.
Zimmerman,  whose  father is white and his mother Hispanic, says he shot Martin in  self-defense after following him in a gated community in Sanford on Feb.  26.
The lack of an arrest or charges in the case has sparked  protests nationwide with many claiming that Zimmerman pulled a gun on  Martin because of his race. Zimmerman's supporters deny that. 
Special  prosecutor Angela Corey is investigating the fatal shooting in Florida;  the U.S. Justice Department is also investigating the case.
_This is a breaking news story. Please check back for more details._

----------


## guyinthailand

> solidly built and muscled.
> Even the videos shows he's not plump at all, but well built, someone fit and strong.


Yet another of Ent's amazing superpowers: he has xray vision. (In an earlier post Ent claimed to be able to see the future). So now we know that   Ent can also see muscles through clothes and can also tell by looking at a picture if someone is 'fit and strong'.  

Please, Ent, post some pics of his muscles.

Or do his rippling muscles and 'solid' build exist only in the imagination of someone (you) who in this forum made 3 or 4 posts about penises?

----------


## ENT

Check out the videos. No pot belly, solidly built Zimmerman appears physically fit.

Your desire to see pictures of his "rippling muscles" as you put it, and your fascination with penises is questionable. 

Zimmerrman's past also shows that an all three previous occasions that he faced charges (all three charges mysteriously dropped, diversion given insisted), two were for his violent assault on others, a police officer and his wife/partner.

These do not indicate a physically challenged man, rather a man confident of his physical ability to fight.

----------


## ENT

Now that Zimmerman's lawyers are withdrawing from the case and have cast doubts upon Zimmerman's professionally written web site begging letter, ostensibly to fund his "lawyers and living expenses" it seems that Zimmerman was being somewhat economical with the truth.

The fact that he's not communicating with his pro bono lawyers shows his discomfort with them, so why the begging letter?
Living expenses or slush fund?

Zimmerman is apparently not in Florida any more.

"We have a pretty good idea where he (Zimmerman) is," Uhrig said, but added that Zimmerman is not answering the phone. The attorneys said they thought Zimmerman was still in the United States, but not likely in Florida.

Uhrig said Zimmerman had called Fox News talk show host Sean Hannity, which also worried them. "We believe he spoke directly to Sean," Uhrig said. Fox News representative Dana Klinghoffer declined to elaborate to NBC News on the nature of Zimmerman's relationship with Hannity, saying it would be addressed on the show.

Let's see what he says on the show, _if_ he turns up.                                                                                                               http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...on-martin-case

----------


## guyinthailand

> Check out the videos. No pot belly, solidly built Zimmerman appears physically fit.
> 
> Your desire to see pictures of his "rippling muscles" as you put it, and your fascination with penises is questionable. 
> 
> Zimmerrman's past also shows that an all three previous occasions that he faced charges (all three charges mysteriously dropped, diversion given insisted), were for his violent assault on others, a police officer and his wife/partner.
> 
> These do not indicate a physically challenged man, rather a man confident of his physical ability to fight.


Still waiting for you to post the pictures of his rippling muscles which you claim to have inside knowledge of. *Come on, Ent, just for once: back up something you said with some evidence.*

 Tell us how you know he is "solidly built".

_"a man confident of his physical ability to fight."   _ *Ent, your superpowers know no bounds!* *Now you maintain* you can see inside Zimmerman's head!  Not just through his clothes to his rippling muscles and not just into the future---but *you can see inside his head,* into his thoughts!, because you just know Zimmerman is "_confident of his physical ability to fight_".  

Ent, do I need to repost here all your earlier posts about penises and gay bashing which you initiated on this thread?  Have you forgotten those?  Now you're delusional: you think it is I who started talking about that subject.  It was you, Ent, you.   Here, maybe you should participate in this thread https://teakdoor.com/world-news/10603...le-likely.html (New study finds homophobic people are likely repressing same-sex attraction)

I already showed you how the three charges of Zimmerman were for inconsequential things that will, moreover, not be allowed into evidence (1) tussling with a police officer while drunk as a twenty year old 2) mutual restraining orders on both husband and wife and 3) speeding (charges dropped, cop didn't show for court).  None of which are a big deal. 

 All your posts just reveals the weakness of your 'case' in which you have already convicted him of 'premeditated murder' (your words).

----------


## ENT

As a verbal contortionist you ought to get a job in a sideshow.
Your "rippling muscles" and "penis" fantasies are weird.

All your conjecture on this case is lacking in reason, and peppered with misquotes as any one can read.

You don't deliberately look for trouble or get into a fight as Zimmerman does unless you're confident of winning.
The guy's a thug and a con man

----------


## guyinthailand

One of the great things about Teakdoor is you can scroll back through  the posts and see who said what, for example, your original posts  concerned with the penises of other people, your gay bashing and how you  know for certain Zimmerman is 'well muscled'.  Did you by any chance yet  visit the thread discussing how  'homophobia-demonstrates-you're-suppressing-same sex attraction'?  I  think you might be able to learn something about yourself there!

Now you're saying Zimmerman 'was looking for trouble'.  

It must feel good to have so many superpowers, Ent. You can see the  future ("he's going to do it again"), see that Zimmerman is 'well muscled', and you know what he was  thinking the night of the killing.

----------


## guyinthailand

duplicate post

----------


## ENT

I notice that you can't find or quote the posts you claim to exist.

----------


## guyinthailand

No need to.  All anyone has to do is read this thread.  All your wit and wisdom (and super powers!) are there for all to see.

----------


## Minnie Maugham

I'm still waiting for AG Holder to issue arrest warrants for the New Black Panthers who put a $10G bounty on Zimmerman. (I reckon I be waiting til Kingdom Come)  :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> I see they're still using an old picture of Zimmerman when he was younger and plumper, probably from his college year book.
> 
> Recent shots of Zimmerman are of a much leaner man, solidly built and muscled.
> Even the videos shows he's not plump at all, but well built, someone fit and strong.
> 
> So now his lawyers have cobbled together a smooth PR rave as a begging letter, not so much for Zimmerman's sake, but to feed _themselves_, as they are doing this case _pro bono_.
> 
> Does every defendant in America do this when they have to defend themselves in court?
> What about poor people on welfare who have to answer criminal charges?                                                                            Do _they_ get fancy lawyers for free and then ask for more cash from the public?
> Doesn't Zimmerman get welfare too?


He'll probably make a fortune out of this now, there will be pledges galore from "people who hate them damned niggers" and the usual bunch of "You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead, puffy, semen-stained fingers" brigade.

----------


## robuzo

^Apparently he has ditched his lawyers and is looking to become the next Fox News sideshow act. Good luck with that. He might want to consider skipping off to Peru.

----------


## ENT

I think that is what he wants to do.

----------


## ENT

*Zimmerman...PTSD?* That's what his now withdwawn lawyers have suggested, based on Zimmerman's recent behaviour.

*"George Zimmerman in our opinion...is not doing well emotionally, probably suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome,* we understand from others that he may have lost a lot of weight," Uhrig said. "Our concern is that for him to do this...to handle it this way suggests that* he may not be in complete control of what's going on.* We're concerned for his emotional and physical safety."

Sonner said that he did not believe that Zimmerman would harm himself or flee the country.

Uhrig said that last [B]Thursday[/B*], he and Sonner helped George Zimmerman's father, Robert Zimmerman, set up a website* to solicit donations for George's legal defense and living expenses. They said that they had not been able to reach Zimmerman on Sunday, the day before the site was to go live. 
*"On Sunday we lost track of George* in that he wouldn't return our phone calls, and we couldn't get hold of him," Uhrig said. "We had no reason at that time to believe that it was anything suspect."

*But Zimmerman set up a different website that was different from the one set up by his attorneys and his father.
*
"We were happy enough with that, but disturbed that he had not communicated with us," Uhrig said.

The attorneys said that *Zimmerman repeatedly ignored their legal advice.*

"We learned that he had called Sean Hannity of Fox News directly — not through us," Uhrig said. "We believe that he spoke directly with Sean off the record and [Hannity's] not even willing to tell us what our client told him."

Uhrig said the *"final straw"* was *Zimmerman's attempt to set up a meeting with the special prosecutor on the case, Angela Corey.* But Uhrig said that Zimmerman had contacted the special prosecutor directly to come in to speak with them, as well. *"We were a bit* *astonished* and had some conversation back and forth with the prosecutor's office," Uhrig said."*They told us what we expected, '[that they] were not going to talk to a criminal or [defendant] without counsel.'"*

Uhrig said that Zimmerman told officials at the prosecutors office that Uhrig and Sonner were not his lawyers, but "his legal advisers."

More;
Trayvon Martin Case: George Zimmerman's Attorneys Quit, Say *Client 'Disappeared'*

It sounds as if Zimmerman's behaving to type and ignoring the rules again.
Such stubborn and willfully desperate behaviour isn't going to help him.
Zimmerman's not going to change in a hurry, so we can exoect some more bizarre action from him in an already bizarre case.

----------


## ENT

And guyinthailand is behaving in an equally bizarre fashion with his futile ad hominem attacks.

More than pathetic, bizarre.

True to type, he's not going to change either.

----------


## alwarner

> *Zimmerman...PTSD?* That's what his now withdwawn lawyers have suggested, based on Zimmerman's recent behaviour.
> 
> .


Everyone in my house is suffering from PTSD after the rather too spicy curry I had last night purged itself from places unknown (along with a piece of my soul) this morning.

----------


## ENT

Hell, there must be a PTSD plague going on, what with Zimmerman and that soldier in the Afghanistan civilian massacre and now you!

Must be something in the _spicy food,_ it's the only common factor.   :Smile:

----------


## robuzo

> And guyinthailand is behaving in an equally bizarre fashion with his futile ad hominem attacks.
> 
> More than pathetic, bizarre.
> 
> True to type, he's not going to change either.


That's what the ignore function is for. 




> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> *Zimmerman...PTSD?* That's what his now withdwawn lawyers have suggested, based on Zimmerman's recent behaviour.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> Everyone in my house is suffering from PTSD after the rather too spicy curry I had last night purged itself from places unknown (along with a piece of my soul) this morning.


Are you suggesting a curry connection? *Where's your evidence in this case?* That's the problem, too many unfounded accusations!  :cmn:

----------


## alwarner

> Hell, there must be a PTSD plague going on, what with Zimmerman and that soldier in the Afghanistan civilian massacre and now you!
> 
> Must be something in the _spicy food,_ it's the only common factor.


Knowing my Mrs. it probably is depleted Uranium in the guise of "Chinese Medicine".

hrrmmph.

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> Hell, there must be a PTSD plague going on, what with Zimmerman and that soldier in the Afghanistan civilian massacre and now you!
> 
> Must be something in the _spicy food,_ it's the only common factor.  
> 
> 
> Knowing my Mrs. it probably is depleted Uranium in the guise of "Chinese Medicine".
> ...


Sounds like she's either trying to give you a permanent stiffy or turn you into a stiff.

----------


## ENT

:Cop:   :dogrun1: 

Somethings going on.

----------


## guyinthailand

> I'm still waiting for AG Holder to issue arrest warrants for the New Black Panthers who put a $10G bounty on Zimmerman. (I reckon I be waiting til Kingdom Come)


Excellent idea.

And why not Spike, too?  He endangered an entire family's life.  And sue NBC for maliciously editing 911 tape to make it appear Zimmerman is a racist and thereby fan the flames of racial hatred.

----------


## ENT

And sue Zimmerman's supporters for maliciously posting phony facebook images of Trayvon Martin and calling him a gangster and jail guyinthailand for character assassination and posting false information about me and continually being a prat and sue the same again for promoting racial hatred on the forum, and trolling like a stupid little brown nosed dweeb.

----------


## alwarner

> Originally Posted by alwarner
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by ENT
> ...


One by way of the other wouldnt be a bad way to go, i suppose.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> And sue Zimmerman's supporters for maliciously posting phony facebook images of Trayvon Martin and calling him a gangster and jail guyinthailand for character assassination and posting false information about me and continually being a prat and sue the same again for promoting racial hatred on the forum, and trolling like a stupid little brown nosed dweeb.


No, for that you just have to pm him with a place and time and go and give him a kicking.

If he bottles out, you've won.

 :Smile:

----------


## ENT

Good idea.

Hoy! Yoo der, gayinthailand!

Nex time ya back I'll smak ya one! Cool?

(Fek, I feel like Anty now.   :Confused: )

----------


## ENT

We'll wait for the diplomatic bit, PMs and all.

I'll just oil my zimmer frame while I wait.

----------


## alwarner

> We'll wait for the diplomatic bit, PMs and all.
> 
> I'll just oil my zimmer frame while I wait.


Zimmer (man) frame?

You are Illuminati!!!

----------


## ENT

:ssssh:  Don't tell him that, he'll go nuts!

----------


## S Landreth

Decision in Trayvon case expected by Friday, as Zimmerman goes AWOL from lawyers.  

Zimmermans lawyers quit the case, saying they havent been in touch with him for two days. Meantime, the special prosecutor said Tuesday evening she will announce a decision within 72 hours.

SANFORD -- With prosecutors saying they will announce a decision in the Trayvon Martin case by Friday, George Zimmerman appears to have struck out on his own.

snip

The FBI, the Florida Department of Law Enforcement and the U.S. Department of Justices Civil Rights division are investigating the case.

Now that the probe is in the hands of the Jacksonville-based special prosecutor, Trayvons family attorneys believe an arrest is imminent, but they were concerned by the defense lawyers decision to withdraw from the case.

The family is deeply concerned that George Zimmerman could pose a flight risk if he does indeed face charges in the murder of Trayvon Martin, family spokesman Ryan Julison said in a statement. All the family has asked for from the very beginning is simple justice. It is their hope that George Zimmerman will face his legal responsibilities if arrested and charged.


Miami Herald: Decision in Trayvon case expected by Friday, as Zimmerman goes AWOL from lawyers. - Trayvon Martin - MiamiHerald.com

----------


## Covertjay

> Originally Posted by Mr Gribbs
> 
> 
> Martin is probably one of these innocent youths with a juvenile record as long as his arm.
> 
> 
> Do you mean this Trayvon Martin?
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/21/us...n.html?_r=1&hp
> ". . .Trayvon, 17, a well-liked high school student from Miami with no criminal record. . ."
> ...


 :smiley laughing:  owned

----------


## S Landreth

George Zimmerman to be charged in Trayvon Martin shooting, official says: http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...oAT_story.html

Florida special prosecutor Angela Corey plans to announce as early as Wednesday afternoon that she is charging neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman in the shooting of Trayvon Martin, according to a law enforcement official close to the investigation.

More news from Corey's office at 6pm (EST)


in similar news today,..........

The so-called Stand Your Ground self-defense laws in Florida and some other states amount to “a license to murder” and an excuse for “vigilante justice,” New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg charged Wednesday.

“The laws are not the kind of laws a civilized society should have and the [National Rifle Association] should be ashamed of themselves,” Bloomberg, a leading gun-control advocate, said at the National Press Club in Washington, D.C. “This has nothing to do with gun-owners’ rights. This has nothing to do with the Second Amendment.”

“Plain and simple, this is just trying to give people a license to murder,” he added of the Stand Your Ground laws.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories...#ixzz1rlkQJ3xq

----------


## socal

Zimmerman gets a second degree murder charge.

Another miscarriage of justice in the US.

Hopefully the jury will have the brains to let him off. I think he will be acquitted

----------


## ENT

*Trayvon Martin*

Florida’s 2005 Stand Your Ground law protects shooters who claim self-defense in a wide range of places, including on the street or in a bar. According to the law, *a person who believes their life is in danger or could be seriously injured in any place they have a right to be* “has no duty to retreat” and *“has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force.”*

Read more: Michael Bloomberg on Florida: ?License to murder? - Darius Dixon - POLITICO.com

*Martin was exercising his rights under the law to stand his ground and meet force with force,* as outlined above.

Martin had every reason to fear for his safety when he saw Zimmerman following him on his home ground, 
He did not run as his girl friend advised him, but stopped to ask Zimmerman what _he_ wanted there.

_Then_ the fight started.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Good idea.
> 
> Hoy! Yoo der, gayinthailand!
> 
> Nex time ya back I'll smak ya one! Cool?
> 
> (Fek, I feel like Anty now.  )


Ent, any idiotic, misinformed and simplistic posts you've made to this  thread--you've made many--I have demolished with reason and logic.  In  short, I have kicked your ass on this forum.  *And now you want me to  kick your ass in person?*  You are a glutton for punishment.  Your  situation urgently requires therapy.

I am glad, though, that you took my advice to check out the thread--*"New study finds homophobic people are likely repressing same-sex attraction"*.   After you made your remarks about the penises of others on this  Zimmerman/Martin thread, I had a feeling the homophobic thread would be  'up' your alley.  I see that your knowledge of all things anal is  intimate indeed, to judge by your posts there.  Anyone wanting further  glimpses into the marvelous world of Ent is encouraged to visit that  thread where you can hear him expound on the correct number of bowel  movements per day, and many other pearls of wisdom on excrement, which seems to be the focus of his posts right here:  https://teakdoor.com/world-news/10603...le-likely.html  (New study finds homophobic people are likely repressing same-sex  attraction) (New study finds homophobic people are likely repressing same-sex attraction)

----------


## bsnub

George Zimmerman, who says he killed unarmed Florida teenager Trayvon Martin in self defense, has been arrested and will face a charge of second-degree murder, says State Attorney Angela Corey, the special prosecutor investigating Martin's death.

Corey said that Zimmerman turned himself in to the authorities Wednesday.

The arrest and charges come more than six weeks after Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer, shot Martin, an African-American who was 17 when he died. Zimmerman, 28, was not jailed or charged after the Feb. 26 shooting. Since then, the case has become a cause of both outrage and contention.

Update at 6:27 p.m. ET: 

Corey said she has spoken with Martin's parents, Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin, about the charges against Zimmerman.

"They now know that charges have been filed," Corey said of Martin's parents. "We're very proud of the job that law enforcement has done."

Asked by reporters about potential sentences that might be sought against Zimmerman, Corey refused to speculate. She would also not clarify his whereabouts, other than to say he is in custody and in Florida. And a location for the trial has not been set.

Our original post continues:

In addition to sparking a national discussion about race, the Trayvon Martin case has also brought new scrutiny to states that have a "stand your ground" law, which expands the circumstances under which people can make a claim of self defense.

The charge of second-degree murder is often made in cases in which prosecutors believe that a killing was intentional, but not premeditated.

On Monday, Corey announced that she would not be taking the case to a grand jury this week  a sign that many interpreted as meaning that Zimmerman would not be facing a charge of first-degree murder. As a state attorney, Corey is an elected official in Florida. She announced the charges in her home district of Jacksonville, which is more than 100 mile north of Sanford.

Zimmerman has not made any public appearances since the shooting; his whereabouts have been the subject of much speculation.

News of Zimmerman's arrest comes one day after his attorneys, Craig Sonner and Hal Uhrig, announced that they would no longer be representing him.

As we reported earlier today, Martin's parents said they had not confirmed any new developments as of early Wednesday afternoon.

"I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, justice will be served" in the case, Martin's mother, Sybrina Fulton, told the AP.

Zimmerman Arrested On Murder Charge In Trayvon Martin Case : The Two-Way : NPR

----------


## guyinthailand

> *Martin was exercising his rights under the law to stand his ground and meet force with force,* as outlined above.
> 
> Martin had every reason to fear for his safety when he saw Zimmerman following him on his home ground, 
> He did not run as his girl friend advised him, but stopped to ask Zimmerman what _he_ wanted there.
> 
> _Then_ the fight started.


Yes, then the fight started.

And the busted skull and broken nose of Zimmerman--maybe Ent thinks  Zimmerman got those when he hit his head and nose on his mobile phone as  he called the police for help that night.

Ent still hasn't figured out that it is Zimmerman who may be employing the 'stand your ground' law.  Confused, Ent, are you?

----------


## Gerbil

Any lawyers here?

I'd like to sue someone for emotional damages caused by all this crap on TD.  :bunny3:

----------


## ENT

PM me, gayinthailand is my PR agent, thinks I'm briliant.   :mid: 

(He doesn't read the news or anything clearly so can be relied upon as a totally independent reference)

----------


## Minnie Maugham

> Martin had every reason to fear for his safety when he saw Zimmerman following him on his home ground,


Erm, that area was NOT Martin's "home ground"; he was visiting -- banned from school wasn't he?
Anyhoo, bambam and his AG (WTF, this is a fed case now?) and the usual agitators (Sharpton et al) are involved, the New Black Panthers have a $10G bounty out on Mr Zimmerman (Isn't that illegal?), and the po blacks are out to get their fair share (how much for tv appearances?). When will the Latinos take a stance, or is Zimmerman not a member coz his Mom was Peruvian?
Pffft. Total sham.

----------


## Camel Toe

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> 
> Martin had every reason to fear for his safety when he saw Zimmerman following him on his home ground, 
> 
> 
> Erm, that area was NOT Martin's "home ground"; he was visiting -- banned from school wasn't he?
> Anyhoo, bambam and his AG (WTF, this is a fed case now?) and the usual agitators (Sharpton et al) are involved, the New Black Panthers have a $10G bounty out on Mr Zimmerman (Isn't that illegal?), and the po blacks are out to get their fair share (how much for tv appearances?). When will the Latinos take a stance, or is Zimmerman not a member coz his Mom was Peruvian?
> Pffft. Total sham.


banned from school?  damn, he's guilty as sin!  some of what you say is true but in reality it's all whining and pride after the fall.  the fall, you know, you lost.  he's being arrested.  oh boo hoo.  blacks 1, rednecks 0.

----------


## bsnub

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> 
> Martin had every reason to fear for his safety when he saw Zimmerman following him on his home ground, 
> 
> 
> Erm, that area was NOT Martin's "home ground"; he was visiting -- banned from school wasn't he?
> Anyhoo, bambam and his AG (WTF, this is a fed case now?) and the usual agitators (Sharpton et al) are involved, the New Black Panthers have a $10G bounty out on Mr Zimmerman (Isn't that illegal?), and the po blacks are out to get their fair share (how much for tv appearances?). When will the Latinos take a stance, or is Zimmerman not a member coz his Mom was Peruvian?
> Pffft. Total sham.


What a rambling, illiterate and garbled post. Oh and I should also add that it is mostly complete nonsense.  :smiley laughing:

----------


## Cujo

> banned from school?  damn, he's guilty as sin!  some of what you say is true but in reality it's all whining and pride after the fall.  the fall, you know, you lost.  he's being arrested.  oh boo hoo.  blacks 1, rednecks 0.


Um, he's not a redneck, he's a target for rednecks though, he's the Hispanic half breed son of an immigrant.
'Redneck' :smiley laughing:  :smiley laughing:

----------


## robuzo

Zimmerman might only be half a redneck (Pappy was a Virginny magistrate), but one thing he clearly isn't is Muslim. If he were there wouldn't be quite as much concern-trolling from the right-wing about rushing to judgement and the presumption of innocence.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> 
> Martin had every reason to fear for his safety when he saw Zimmerman following him on his home ground, 
> 
> 
> Erm, that area was NOT Martin's "home ground"; he was visiting -- banned from school wasn't he?
> Anyhoo, bambam and his AG (WTF, this is a fed case now?) and the usual agitators (Sharpton et al) are involved, the New Black Panthers have a $10G bounty out on Mr Zimmerman (Isn't that illegal?), and the po blacks are out to get their fair share (how much for tv appearances?). When will the Latinos take a stance, or is Zimmerman not a member coz his Mom was Peruvian?
> Pffft. Total sham.


This ain't a case of black versus white.
It's a case of whether or not a judicial killing occurred.

----------


## Camel Toe

> (Pappy was a Virginny magistrate),


Is that the state with 16 million population and 12 surnames?  Oh, that's WEST Virginny.  You ain't frum round hera are ya boy?



> This ain't a case of black versus white.
> It's a case of whether or not a judicial killing occurred.


Are you sure it isn't about the righteous right and those stupid libbies?

----------


## ENT

^MinnieM, As for your point of "home ground", that depends also on your definition of the term "visiting".
Is an advised domicile under parental supervision simply a visit?
Of course not. It's a home-stay for an agreed period of time.
At the time of the murder, Martin was staying with his family at a gated community where he was presumed safe and "at home".

That was not simply a "visit", as you propose it to have been.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
>  (Pappy was a Virginny magistrate),
> 
> 
> Is that the state with 16 million population and 12 surnames?  Oh, that's WEST Virginny.  You ain't frum round hera are ya boy?
> 
> 
> ...


Sure, though the social view points have coloured the issue.

----------


## Camel Toe

Koojo doesn't think a "spick" can be a redneck.  I guess he's stuck on last century's definition.  And what's a spick?  Haven't heard that for quite some time.  So Koojo, what race or nationality doesn't have one of your nasty names .. just regular ol' Presbyterian White folks like you?

----------


## Cujo

> Koojo doesn't think a "spick" can be a redneck.  I guess he's stuck on last century's definition.


Well, by definition, no.
Do you know how the term 'redneck' came about?

----------


## ENT

Rednecks are part and parcel of any culture, black, white, pink, purple or green, the arch conservatives paranoidly moving in a pack.

----------


## ENT

^^Tell us, oh wise one.

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
>  (Pappy was a Virginny magistrate),
> 
> 
> Is that the state with 16 million population and 12 surnames?  Oh, that's WEST Virginny.  You ain't frum round hera are ya boy?


West Virginia was mostly Union; seceded from Confederate Virginia.

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by Camel Toe
> 
> 
> Koojo doesn't think a "spick" can be a redneck.  I guess he's stuck on last century's definition.
> 
> 
> Well, by definition, no.
> Do you know how the term 'redneck' came about?


In Florida black people and urban/suburban whites refer to rural whites as "crackers." It has an interesting etymology that has nothing to do with Saltines, but rather with the way cattle were herded in Florida, which has a large cattle industry.

----------


## Boon Mee

It's On:  New Black Panther Leader Announces Formation of All Black Army to Kill Whitey.

Gee thanks, Obama.

 						 						  Malik Zulu Shabazz discussed his plans to build an all black army to kill whitey.

The National Chairman of the New Black Panther Party, Malik Zulu Shabazz, details his plans for an all black army in Florida. *Of course,* the Obama Administration will ignore this just like the $10,000 NBP bounty on George Zimmerman.
 But then again Obama and the panthers go back a few years.  They marched together in Alabama.



New Panther National Chief Malik Zulu Shabazz is seen speaking at a Selma rally in 2007 on the left. Then Obama speaks to the radical group at the same rally

No wonder Obama just came out yesterday saying he's not going to be talking about Martin anymore.

The damage is done...

----------


## koman

> It's On: New Black Panther Leader Announces Formation of All Black Army to Kill Whitey.


Are they planning to be selective?  Will they kill whiney, apologitic leftist liberals as readily as "rednecks".     Race wars are usually like that...  It's your race that gets you killed, not your opinions.   Maybe the bleeding heart liberals should think that one over...

It's interesting that not one black activist or politician seems to have come out against the kind of vicious hateful crap this (so far) very small minority preaches.....why would that be?    If any "white" group was making statements and threats like the "Black  Panthers"....the whole country would be in an uproar and they would be arrested pretty damn quick....as they should be.   

Would it hurt for that gutless wonder in the "White" house to make a statement here and there, condemning hate speech and threats of starting a race war.....??
That American icon Charlie Manson wanted to start a race war......so these fuckwits are in real good company....Oh and Charlie was just turned down for parole again.....  It's tough being an icon sometimes.
.

----------


## bsnub

The typical dumbfucks from the right have pitched in with their garbage on this thread. Lets see what happens when a jury of 12 makes a decision.

----------


## koman

> The typical dumbfucks from the right have pitched in with their garbage on this thread. Lets see what happens when a jury of 12 makes a decision.


WTF are you yapping about now.  Are you on side with the "Black Panthers"?
What right wing "garbage" are you referring to....  or do you mean anything than anyone writes that's not far left  garbage?   `You really should not be allowed to post on anything outside MKP......  on second thought MKP is too high a standard..... move to Thaivisa.... :rofl:

----------


## ENT

Back to rednecks. Originally it was a bloke with a red neck as a result of labouring out in the sun, so he'd end up with a red neck (and forearms).
In Liverpool Proddys would call Catholics rednecks, because some of their prelates wore a red sash around their necks

----------


## S Landreth

> It's interesting that not one black activist or politician seems to have come out against the kind of vicious hateful crap this (so far) very small minority preaches.....


Fuckin' bullshit!

Change the channel every once in a while. God damn,... some of you people are strange.

----------


## ENT

> It's On:  New Black Panther Leader Announces Formation of All Black Army to Kill Whitey.
> 
> Gee thanks, Obama.
> 
>  						 						                Malik Zulu Shabazz discussed his plans to build an all black army to kill whitey.


His name tells me he's a Muslim, a lot of black born again Muslims end up as extremists.

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> 
> It's interesting that not one black activist or politician seems to have come out against the kind of vicious hateful crap this (so far) very small minority preaches.....
> 
> 
> Fuckin' bullshit!
> 
> Change the channel every once in a while. God damn,... some of you people are strange.


Which people do you think are "strange" ...... what channel should we change to?   On which channel are all the black activists and politicians using to speak out against the hate speech and threats from the "New Black Panthers" and others?    Are you in favor of a race war?   Do you think that's a good way to deal with this "non event" which black activist political figures and loony left wing whites have turned into a powder keg.....

Are you another one who has Zimmerman tried, convicted and executed based on Martin's primary school photo, or do you think evidence and proof might be a reasonable approach?

----------


## ENT

^ You left out the WASPs, the biggest racial shit stirrers on this thread so far.

----------


## S Landreth

> Originally Posted by S Landreth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by koman
> ...



Al Sharpton came out against all the hate yesterday while at a podium with Trayvons family. 





> Are you another one who has Zimmerman tried, convicted and executed based on Martin's primary school photo, or do you think evidence and proof might be a reasonable approach?


Im waiting for the evidence, but I can tell you this now, the evidence is already out about these Shoot First/Stand Your Ground laws in the states. They are wrong and should be repealed.

----------


## pickel

> New Black Panther Leader Announces Formation of All Black Army to Kill Whitey.


Got a link for that statement?




> Are you on side with the "Black Panthers"?


It's not the "Black Panthers". It's the "New Black Panthers". The "Black Panthers" have actually denounced the other idiots.

----------


## alwarner

"Are you the New Black Panthers?"

"Faaaaaaaaaaack orf we're the Peoples Black Panthers of Mecca"

----------


## robuzo

> Are you another one who has Zimmerman tried, convicted and executed based on Martin's primary school photo, or do you think evidence and proof might be a reasonable approach?
> 			
> 		
> 
> I’m waiting for the evidence, but I can tell you this now, the evidence is already out about these Shoot First/Stand Your Ground laws in the states. They are wrong and should be repealed.


Did you read about the shootings of random black people in Oklahoma by the son of a white guy who was shot by a black burglar who got off because of OK's idiotic "Shoot First" law? Tulsa shootings evoke city's past racial violence | Reuters Given that OK is one of the most "conservative" (right-wing reactionary racist) states in the US, home to one of the most infamous racist incidents in the US in the 20th century, it is probably safe to say that it wasn't libruls on the jury who let the black shooter walk, but the result of a very stupid law. Hmm, now try to imagine the outrage on Fox News and among our resident Stormfront members (including the "But I'm so civil and reasonable" koman  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): ) if a black relative of Tray Martin went out and shot five random white people. I'm pretty sure they would display a notch or two more outrage than they are expressing over the race-based shootings in OK. In any case, at the bottom of both cases is a legal provision that must be changed.

----------


## S Landreth

> Originally Posted by S Landreth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				Are you another one who has Zimmerman tried, convicted and executed based on Martin's primary school photo, or do you think evidence and proof might be a reasonable approach?
> ...


I did hear about the awful Oklahoma shootings. It was all over the news channels, here.




> In any case, at the bottom of both cases is a legal provision that must be changed.


And why I believe Zimmerman might walk, even though the prosecuting attorney believes she has a good case against him (charging the man with second degree murder and in Florida its 16 ¾ years minimum and up to life in jail, if convicted).

----------


## ENT

A legal technicality is the only way he'll get off, as you point out, but I think that Corey's got her case worked out, otherwise she wouldn't support a charge against him, or have him arrested in the first place.
She's taking this matter very seriously, and I think that this case will either make or break her career and reputation as a competent State attorney, permanently.

----------


## robuzo

^^I don't think she does have a good case. If she had she might have opted for the grand jury. She is aiming high in attempt to gain a plea bargain down to manslaughter is my guess. I think it won't be hard for Zimmerman to attract some strong legal talent. Other defendants with shakier-looking cases than he have walked thanks to Florida's legalized dueling law.

The criminal charges might make it easier to win a civil suit against him, so Martin's family can maybe take some of the profits from whatever book deals lie down the road for Zimmerman.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Do you think that's a good way to deal with this "non event"


What a strange way to describe the murder of an unarmed teenager.

----------


## DrAndy

> and I think that this case will either make or break her career and reputation as a competent State attorney, permanently.


why do you think that?  I know it is high publicity but she has looked at the evidence presented and made a decison based on that

----------


## ENT

^^^If Corey had left it up to grand jury to decide if there was a case to answer, the jury selected could easily have loaded the decision made, simply through cultural bias.

By taking the responsibility of making the decision, she relied upon a team of experts in several fields, not only law, to assist her in mapping out a framework for the charge laid. That charge is based on the evidence that she's seen so far.

She has said that new evidence has been presented to her, but as yet I haven't seen any mention of it in the media.

Personally, I don't think that any great legal talent wants to handle this case, as whatever the result, there's going to be social and  political backlash for them as well as for the judiciary.

That's my opinion.

----------


## ENT

^^Simply on a technicality, Zimmerman could walk, although I don't think he will.

----------


## koman

> ^ You left out the WASPs, the biggest racial shit stirrers on this thread so far.


When you say WASPS, do you mean those few who did not accept that George Zimmerman was a racist vigilante and Martin was a sweet innocent little kid who was killed just because he happened to be black.....or that this event might not in fact have had anything to do with the racial profiles of the participants?   ....all based on the early surge of "information" provided by the highly objective and dedicated staff of MSNBC and other bastions of journalistic integrity....or the highly colored and inflamatory rhetoric of certain political figures. 

I have not seen anything that would qualify as real racial shit stirring by anyone on TD as a matter of fact.  I have seen some different opinions and interpretions of the few bits of information released.....but those on the "left" side of this discussion just can't seem to even consider the notion that Zimmerman might just be a victim of circumstance....and a convenient pawn in the race politics game.  

Actually I find the whole idea that this became a left/right,  or even  black/white issue,  quite bizarre.  I've never seen it as either.  It was a random incident which for reasons that remain unclear, went badly wrong.....but it appears that with some of our TD players, you are not allowed to hold any kind of middle ground on things like this.  It's hard to understand why people are so easily divided into competing camps without any real data or evidence to established what actually occured.

In the end, I doubt if the Martin "camp" will accept a _not guilty_ verdict regardless of what evidence is presented....and the Zimmerman "camp" will react likewise if a _guilty_ verdict comes in.    .....may as well just have that race war and get it over with.....

----------


## S Landreth

> A legal technicality is the only way he'll get off, as you point out, but I think that Corey's got her case worked out, otherwise she wouldn't support a charge against him, or have him arrested in the first place.
> She's taking this matter very seriously, and I think that this case will either make or break her career and reputation as a competent State attorney, permanently.


I dont know about this one case making or breaking her. She doesnt know (ya never know) what a jury might find/do.

But I am with you on her having this case worked out, with the evidence she must have or like you say she wouldnt have charged Zimmerman in the first place (with second degree murder).

In the end hopefully this case will shine more light on our (Florida and nations) Stand Your Ground law and our law makers will repeal it and of course bring a just end to this case.

----------


## ENT

The make or break factor comes in on the strength of her evaluation of the evidence and the way that the "stand your ground" law is interpreted in this case.

As I pointed out in an earlier post, Martin had the right to stand his ground that night. This is a point that the prosecutor may raise.
Many assume that only Zimmerman could use that law in his defence.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> ^ You left out the WASPs, the biggest racial shit stirrers on this thread so far.
> 
> 
> When you say *WASPS*, do you mean those few who did not accept that George Zimmerman was a racist vigilante and Martin was a sweet innocent little kid who was killed just because he happened to be black.....or that this event might not in fact have had anything to do with the racial profiles of the participants?   ....all based on the early surge of "information" provided by the highly objective and dedicated staff of MSNBC and other bastions of journalistic integrity....or the highly colored and inflamatory rhetoric of certain political figures. 
> 
> *I have not seen anything that would qualify as real racial shit stirring by anyone on TD as a matter of fact.* 
> ...



*WASPs,* White Anglo Saxon Protestants, are the larger mass of middle America. The so called "right wing" evident in this discussion.

There have been several posts on this thread that have stoked anti-black sympathies, mainly type casting Martin as a black wannabe gangsta or sarcastic reference to Martin as a "sweet innocent little kid who was killed just because he happened to be black....".

Or, ...may as well just have that race war and get it over with....[/B].

Also a false facebook reference along with comments, slurring and type casting Martin as a typical black problem kid of today.

The other racially charged posts placed more emphasis upon sensationalising black reactions to the situation.
One such posted comment was, *"It's On: New Black Panther Leader Announces Formation of All Black Army to Kill Whitey."*
I couldn't find that statement in the link given for it.

The strange part, is that only one anti Hispanic reference has surfaced, as Zimmerman is a "white" Catholic Hispanic, not a WASP.
Maybe the S American Hispanics have immunity from criticism by both sides of the racial divide, for some reason?

Zimmerman is by no means a victim of circumstances, the guy is a thug and a conman, as anyone can read.

----------


## ENT

*Mark Omara to defend Zimmerman.*

The hearing, currently set for 1.30pm EDT, will be the first appearance by Zimmerman, 28, since he became a national and highly divisive figure by shooting and killing Martin, 17, in a quiet gated community in the central Florida town of Sanford.

The incident has set off a firestorm of debate about race relations and self-defense laws, punctuated by a series of demonstrations across the country. Even President Barack Obama commented on the case, saying, ''If I had a son, he would look like Trayvon.''

*Mark O'Mara, the Orlando criminal defense attorney Zimmerman hired* Wednesday afternoon after his first defense team dropped him as a client the previous day, said it was not immediately clear whether bail would be discussed during Zimmerman's initial appearance before a judge.
Trayvon Martin death | George Zimmerman faces court... | Stuff.co.nz


*Mark Omara*

Mark M. O'Mara has been practicing Criminal and Family Law in Central Florida for 28 years, and is presently Board Certified as a Criminal Trial Specialist and a Marital and Family Law Specialist. Mark is a former felony prosecutor and Division Chief and has handled all types of criminal cases, including traffic, property crimes, DUI, drug cases and Death Penalty cases.

Mark M. O'Mara | O?Mara Law Group | Orlando Florida


*George Zimmerman: Former WKMG analyst Mark O’Mara is his new lawyer* 
Mark O'Mara was a legal analyst for WKMG-Channel 6 during the Casey Anthony trial.

George Zimmerman had a lawyer who was a TV analyst in the Casey Anthony case, but Hal Uhrig bowed out Tuesday.
Now Zimmerman has a new lawyer who also was a TV analyst in the Anthony case: Mark O’Mara who served in that role for WKMG-Channel In an interview tonight on CNN, O’Mara said he was surprised that Special Prosecutor Angela Corey would charge Zimmerman with second-degree murder in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin.

*“But she knows the evidence. I don’t know yet,” O’Mara said.*

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/ent...ew-lawyer.html


Not your average lawyer, but probably a good spin doctor for Zimmerman, being an ex-tv personality.
Past Employment Positions
Seminole County State Attorney Office, Assistant State Attorney, 1982 - 1984
Languages
Spanish

----------


## guyinthailand

> Zimmerman is by no means a victim of circumstances, the guy is a thug and a conman, as anyone can read.


*Actually, Ent, it is you who is a thug and a conman*.  Here's why:

Ent, for some reason I thought you had been reading the posts here.  If you had, you would know that not everyone automatically assumes he is a "thug and a conman".

In fact, there are those on this forum who judge him innocent until proven guilty.

It is a good thing the American justice system isn't run by true 'thugs' like you, who have already convicted Zimmerman in your mind.

"Innocent until proven guilty"  Say that over and over and over and just maybe it will seep into that 'thugish' head of yours which is, in reality, that of a 'conman' because you are trying to 'con' people into believing your twisted 'guilty until proven innocent' version.

----------


## S Landreth

from the Orlando Sentinel :George Zimmerman court affidavit: 'Zimmerman confronted Martin' - Orlando Sentinel

George Zimmerman court affidavit: 'Zimmerman confronted Martin'

George Zimmerman, the Neighborhood Watch volunteer arrested yesterday in the fatal shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, faced a judge for the first time this afternoon.

Meanwhile, a probable cause affidavit has been filed in the second-degree murder case. In the two-page document, prosecutors offer little new information about the shooting.


However, they said in the affidavit that "Zimmerman confronted Martin," an apparent contradiction of Zimmerman's version of the events that led to the shooting.

The document says Trayvon's mother identified the screams for help heard in a 911 call as those of her son. It also reveals that investigators interviewed a "friend" of Trayvon's who was talking to him in the leadup to the shooting.

Based on the description, it appears the friend was the girl described by Martin family attorneys as his girlfriend.

"During this time, Martin was on the phone with a friend and described to her what was happening," the affidavit said. "The witness advised that Martin was scared because he was being followed through the complex by an unknown male and didn't know why."

Martin tried to run home, the affidavit says, but was followed by Zimmerman. "Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and followed Martin."

The affidavit goes on to say that "Zimmerman disregarded the police dispatcher" who told him to stop, and "continued to follow Martin who was trying to return to his home."

Zimmerman, the affidavit says, "confronted Martin and a struggle ensued."

According to the affidavit: "Trayvon Martin's mother has reviewed the 911 calls and identified the voice crying for help as Trayvon Martin's. Zimmerman shot Martin in the chest."

Zimmerman's first appearance began just after 1:30 p.m. He faces a second-degree murder charge in the Feb. 26 shooting, which sparked international outcry.

Zimmerman appeared in a jumpsuit and handcuffs. He was joined by his new attorney, Mark O'Mara. A first-appearance judge found probable cause for the murder charge.

The judge set Zimmerman's next court date for May 29 at 1:30 p.m. Zimmerman spoke only once during the hearing, responding "yes sir" to a question.

No bond hearing was held. Zimmerman will remain in jail for the time being.

After Zimmerman exited, O'Mara asked the judge to seal documents in the court file containing other information -- including witness statements and information.

"I am seeking on my clients behalf... that we do a complete sealing of that record," O'Mara said, adding that the sealing would be temporary. The judge agreed.

After the hearing, prosecutor Bernie De La Rionda asked reporters gathered outside for patience.

"In the rule of law, we have jury trials for a purpose," De La Rionda said. O'Mara echoed that sentiment.

"It really, truly, it works," O'Mara said of the judicial system, telling reporters that in a case of this profile, if it doesn't work, "you'll tell us."

O'Mara said it made more sense to forgo a bond hearing at this point, electing to give time to allow the fervor surrounding the case to die down. He said his client is in protective custody.

The case has been assigned to Circuit Court Judge Jessica Recksiedler.

Zimmerman court affidavit: http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/im....pdf?hpt=hp_t1

Read charges against Zimmerman: http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/im...an.charges.pdf

----------


## DrAndy

> The make or break factor comes in on the strength of her evaluation of the evidence and the way that the "stand your ground" law is interpreted in this case.


what nonsense, that would not "make or break" her career as you so solemnly opined

in addition, what you seem to ignore is the pressure that has been put on her to bring this case forward; that pressure has come all the way from the top down

----------


## ENT

The appointment of *Bernie de la Rionda* as the State Prosecutor in the case of State v George Zimmerman, a good choice, in my opinion, pits a powerful speaker against the defending attorney Mark O'mara. Both counsels have held a position as assistant State Attorney in their careers.
De la Rionda's appointment is favoured by State Attorney Corey, whom she regards highly as an attorney.
Highly motivated, Bernie de la Rionda is not going to let legal technicalities or emotional rhetoric get in the way of his case arguments. 

*Jacksonville	Bernie de la Rionda*

Mr. Bernie de la Rionda serves as an Assistant State’s Attorney in the Fourth Judicial Circuit of Florida. In Florida, Mr. de la Rionda’s reputation as an exceptional prosecutor is legendary. In his 27 years of service, he has had more than 250 jury trials, 67 of which were homicide cases.  During the last two years, from 2009 to 2010, Mr. de la Rionda was the lead counsel in five homicide trials, all of which were first-degree murder cases. Furthermore, in 22 cases he was successful in obtaining a death penalty recommendation and sentence.
FBI — Jacksonville, FL

Mark O'Mara, for the defence, is going to be put through his paces by de la Rionda, and this case is set to become a great learning curve for American criminal lawyers and may set the precedent for further legal determinations arising from the contentious "stand your ground" law.

Both attorneys will be expected to present their arguments well in the trial before *Judge Jessica Recksiedler*, a young and highly intelligent member of the judiciary is an 18th Judicial Circuit Court judge in Orlando, Fla.

The latest image of Zimmerman appears in this article below, showing a much leaner man than the one in circulation.
Bearded and tense looking, he appeared at the court for his hearing before Judge Recksiedler.

Prosecutors: Zimmerman &#039;profiled&#039; Trayvon Martin | National News - WLKY Home

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> The make or break factor comes in on the strength of her evaluation of the evidence and the way that the "stand your ground" law is interpreted in this case.
> 
> 
> what nonsense, that would not "make or break" her career as you so solemnly opined
> 
> in addition, what you seem to ignore is the pressure that has been put on her to bring this case forward; that pressure has come all the way from the top down


Not at all nonsense, this case will become a turning point in law.
The appointments of the prosecution, defence and judge have been carefully designed, no matter from which direction Corey has been "pressured".

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> 
> Zimmerman is by no means a victim of circumstances, the guy is a thug and a conman, as anyone can read.
> 
> 
> *Actually, Ent, it is you who is a thug and a conman*.  Here's why:
> 
> ...


Your post is nothing more than *a troll and an ad hominem attack* with nothing to support it, as is usual in your *diatribes* against me.
We're all entitled to our opinions on the topic, as this is not a trial, simply a discussion, with banter acceptable within limits.
*Your vindictiveness* is due to being shown as a fool in your right wing rants, proving that you lack any common sense.

----------


## sabang

Trial for second degree murder, fair enough. Nothing to see here, move right along.

----------


## ENT

This doesn't look like the Zimmerman previously portrayed in this thread.

----------


## ENT

Was that Angela Corey shown seated, in the bottom right of the video?

If so, she looks pleased with progress.

----------


## ENT

Trayvon Martin's parents speak after Zimmerman's arrest.





SYBRINA FULTON, MOTHER OF TRAYVON MARTIN: 

First of all, I want to say thank God.

We simply wanted an arrest. We wanted nothing more, nothing less. We just wanted an arrest and we got it. And I say thank you. Thank you, Lord. Thank you, Jesus.
Secondly, I just want to speak from my heart to your heart because* a heart has no color. It's not black, it's not white. It's red.* And I want to say thank you from my heart to your heart.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannit...#ixzz1rsDD6H2f

----------


## ENT

> in addition, what you seem to ignore is *the pressure* that has been put on her to bring this case forward; that pressure has come all the way from the top down


*The pressure* you erroneously refer to is denied by Angela Corey.



ANGELA COREY, PROSECUTOR: *Let me emphasize that we do not prosecute by public pressure or by petition.* We prosecute based on the facts of any given case, as well as the laws of the state of Florida. Today we filed an information charging George Zimmerman with murder in the second degree. A capias has been issued for his arrest. With the filing of that information and the issuance of the capias, he will have the right to appear in front of the magistrate in Seminole County within 24 hours of his arrest and thus formal prosecution will begin.

Read more: The case against George Zimmerman: What's next after charges? - Interviews - Hannity - Fox News

The video in the above linked article is worth listening to as well.

----------


## S Landreth

> Was that Angela Corey shown seated, in the bottom right of the video?


It was

----------


## ENT

Interviews with AngelaCorey, Martin's parents and Zimmerman's attorney O'Mara, followed by an opinion on the charge laid on Zimmerman and its possible outcome, in that order.
The commentary brings up several questions as to the prosecution's chances of proving Zimmerman's guilt.

----------


## koman

> If Corey had left it up to grand jury to decide if there was a case to answer, the jury selected could easily have loaded the decision made, simply through cultural bias.


If that be true....and well it might; how are they going to find a trial jury that will not do the same. At this point we still have a distinct prospect of no trial....but if it does go that far, we have the propsect of a hung jury. This case has already been tried by the national media.....and here on TD.....and all the juries are "hung"

. We can argue till the cows come home about good law vs bad law.....but Zimmerman will be subject to the protection of the existing law regardless of what any of us might thing of it. The very fact that it required such a long time to even come up with a charge must say something about the "evidence" surely. 
.....political pressure may have much more to do with the decision than evidence despite the assertions of the prosecutor...but time will tell.

I've said it before....this is a defence lawyers dream....and a very steep uphill climb for a prosecutor when you look at the actual wording of the "stand your ground" statute.

----------


## ENT

The jury selection process will be a drama in itself, as I predict a long line up of potential jurors, many of whom will not only be ruled out as un-impartial by both prosecution and defence counsels, but many will, I think attempt have themselves exempted from jury duty.

As you say, our opinions can't affect Zimmerman's rights to protection _and_ a fair trial for his actions,

If the case goes to trial, and I think it will, the prosecution has the opportunity to present the law as it stands in the spirit that it was intended, not as it has been applied so far.

From what I gather, according to the law as it stands, the prosecution must prove that Zimmerman had an "unhealthy" (for want of a more accurate term) interest in pursuing Martin that night to get a conviction.

There are two attorneys set to debate this case in an open forum, both of whom are well read in court procedure as both have served as assistant state attorneys.

The new evidence offered to Corey, the day before she announced that Zimmerman would be charged with 2nd degree murder, will I think, prove crucial to the prosecution's ability to win the case.

De la Rossiera has a strong track record in securing prosecutions for murder, he just may well show true to form.

O'Mara, though, has no such record in defending murder cases.

We'll see what evolves.

----------


## chitown

Even the judge says he did not recognize Zimmerman. Now he is being described as a white Hispanic in every news article.  ::chitown:: 






> This doesn't look like the Zimmerman previously portrayed in this thread.

----------


## Boon Mee

The Judge should throw the case out as having no merit.

For fuk's sake, Zim was defending himself!

----------


## ENT

That's not what the court thinks.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Zimmerman is by no means a victim of circumstances, the guy is a thug and a conman, as anyone can read.





> *Actually, Ent, it is you who is a thug and a conman*.  Here's why:
> 
> Ent, for some reason I thought you had been reading the posts here.  If you had, you would know that not everyone automatically assumes he is a "thug and a conman".
> 
> In fact, there are those on this forum who judge him innocent until proven guilty.
> 
> It is a good thing the American justice system isn't run by true 'thugs' like you, who have already convicted Zimmerman in your mind.
> 
> "Innocent until proven guilty"  Say that over and over and over and just maybe it will seep into that 'thugish' head of yours which is, in reality, that of a 'conman' because you are trying to 'con' people into believing your twisted 'guilty until proven innocent' version.





> Your post is nothing more than *a troll and an ad hominem attack* with nothing to support it, as is usual in your *diatribes* against me.
> We're all entitled to our opinions on the topic, as this is not a trial, simply a discussion, with banter acceptable within limits.
> *Your vindictiveness* is due to being shown as a fool in your right wing rants, proving that you lack any common sense.


Ent, *you* called Zimmerman a thug and a conman---without any proof whatsoever.  And you lecture me about ad hominem!

I hit the ball back in your court by pointing out the fact that it is *you* who is the thug and conman by virtue of the FACT that you have already convicted him of 'premeditated murder' (your words) and you continue to make unfounded allegations ("Zimmerman made false claims", "he's a thug & a conman", etc).  

Nowhere on this forum have I engaged in 'right wing rants'.  I always have maintained if Zimmerman is found guilty of wrongfully taking a life then he should be punished.  Rule of law, Ent, rule of law. 

You, on the other hand, are ready to convict him before a trial.  Your behavior is worse than right wing--it is fascist.

If you do believe in a fair trial, Ent, then let me see you say it in print:  "*Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty".*

come on, Ent, say it.  I dare you!

Like I said before, Ent, thank God the American justice system isn't run by true 'thugs' and conmen  like you, who have already convicted Zimmerman in your mind and who repeat over and over on this forum things such as "Zimmerman is a thug and a conman" and who twist the facts to suit their agenda.   

come on, Ent, say it: "Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty".

----------


## Cujo

> The Judge should throw the case out as having no merit.
> 
> For fuk's sake, Zim was defending himself!


The way I see it, he saw Martin, called it in, they told him to leave it alone, he followed martin, martin confronted him, "What are you doing following me?"
Zimmerman asks what he's up to, Martin, quite rightly, tells him to fuck off and mind his own business, Z pulls a gun and asks again, now we have a wannabe badass nigga, but really a 17 year old kid with a bad attitude (what 17 year old kid doesn't).
"whaddaya gonna do? Shhot me?" he challenges Zim. 
He walks toward Zim, who doesn't WANT to shoot him, he jumps Zim(which never would have happened if zim hadn't followed him and challenged him, contrary to police wishes.
He tries to grab the gun from zim, there's a struggle. then I cant guess.
But from the minute Martin set of for his skittles and the minute Zim stepped out on his unofficial neighbourhood watch round packing heat it was a done deal.
Zimmerman should have just minded his own fucking business.
A 17 year old kid goes down the road to get a packet of skittles to nibble on while he plays playstation or something and ends up dead?
Fuck that. Zimmerman didn't set out to kill anyone that night, but it was his actions that initiated the sequence of events that lead to the shooting. 
He needs to pay.

----------


## ENT

^^In an American court of law, Zimmerman, charged with 2nd degree murder, will be treated as innocent until proven guilty, and so he should be.

----------


## Cujo

> In an American court of law, Zimmerman, charged with 2nd degree murder, will be treated as innocent until proven guilty, and so he should be.


Well yes, but that fact is there were two live people.
Now there is one.
One of them died from gunshot.
The othe rone had a gun.
There is no doubt Zim shot Martin. The only question is did he do it within the bounds of the law?

----------


## robuzo

^Beyond that, there is a difference between 2nd degree murder and manslaughter (mens rea issues, etc.) Manslaughter with a firearm carries a stiff sentence in Flawda, but in any case I still think he'll probably go free.

----------


## ENT

^^That's been the whole point that this discussion has revolved around, largely

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> In an American court of law, Zimmerman, charged with 2nd degree murder, will be treated as innocent until proven guilty, and so he should be.
> 
> 
> Well yes, but that fact is there were two live people.
> Now there is one.
> One of them died from gunshot.
> ...


I didn't say he was innocent.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> The Judge should throw the case out as having no merit.
> 
> For fuk's sake, Zim was defending himself!


Yes, I'd shit myself if someone I was stalking came at me with a packet of skittles, a coke and a mobile phone. Clearly the only solution is to execute them.

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> 
> The Judge should throw the case out as having no merit.
> 
> For fuk's sake, Zim was defending himself!
> 
> 
> Yes, I'd shit myself if someone I was stalking came at me with a packet of skittles, a coke and a mobile phone.


Especially if all you had was a gun.

Do we know what kind of gun it was?

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> ...


 Barely a real gun at all....just a lightweight 9mm.....In the USA thats just a toy these days.....the gangsta rappers carry 44 mags.....which can look very much like a bag of Skittles in the dark...especially with rain falling an all.....

----------


## ENT

^Wet point.
It did the trick, didn't it? A 6mm can kill a man, too.

An officer found his weapon, a black* Kel-Tec PF-9 9mm semi-automatic pistol*, in a holster placed on his waistband.

Read more: http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/03/28/...#ixzz1rtrgh8Tr


Same calibre as the police issue Glock a 9mm handgun, not a toy.

----------


## koman

> ^Wet point.
> It did the trick, didn't it? A 6mm can kill a man, too.
> 
> An officer found his weapon, a black* Kel-Tec PF-9 9mm semi-automatic pistol*, in a holster placed on his waistband.
> 
> Read more: George Zimmerman's Gun: A Popular Choice for Concealed Carry | NewsFeed | TIME.com
> 
> 
> Same calibre as the police issue Glock a 9mm handgun, not a toy.


 
Christ almighty ENT,  I though someone with your vastly superior IQ  would have realized that a statement like that was pretty "tongue in cheek"......at least I thought the confusion with a bag of skittles bit might give it away.... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## ENT

The gun in question the Kel-Tec PF-9.

----------


## larvidchr

Before people make to much of this just try to remember that this is essentially a freebie for the prosecutor, she passes the hot potato on to the courts, if she lose all she have to do is say this case needed to be tested by the courts and we did our duty to the public trying this case in a court of law, end off!!

Much harder for her to decide not to prosecute, then she will stand alone with the whole responsibility and be a target for attacks, But with Obama essentially having laid it on the line for his imaginary Son :mid:  and consequently FBI joining in, no one really could believe that they would not come up with some charge or other.

Did TM get a fair shake when the case was first dismissed and Zimmerman allowed to walk, probably not since a charge has been put forward this second time around, is Zimmerman getting a fair shake now, hell no, much more nitpicking scrutiny and investigative resources has been put into this case spurned on by media and public outcry than normally would have been the case, Zimmerman has become a hot potato and is being made a test-case for a controversial law, and he is already guilty and convicted by many in the media and blog-osphere, just as we can see some self appointed experts and super detectives on TD has done, we even have one who already knows what the courts think even though the case has not even started yet :mid: 

Now it is up to the courts and "dream teams" on both sides and we all know how that can swing in the wind over there, there will be no winners in this case, no matter the outcome now it will leave a lot of people certain that it's a miscarriage of Justice.

Criminal cases should never be tried by mainstream media and lowlife public feeding frenzy.

But much more importantly our Political leaders should absolutely not comment on specific cases before the Judicial system is finished and sentences given or not. It is an unwavering principle in a proper modern Democracy, the separation of power that ensures an independent Judiciary, that principle is already broken in this case and like it or not Zimmerman is the victim of that regardless of him being a murderer or not a murderer.

----------


## Boon Mee

> That's not what the court thinks.


And that's not what the vaunted legal brain Alan Dershowitz thinks:

Charges Against Zimmerman Won’t Hold Up. 

“It’s irresponsible and unethical. . . .  This affidavit doesn’t even  make it to probable cause.  Everything in this affidavit is consistent  with a defense of self-defense"

----------


## ENT

Again, another opinion, we all have one.
He could be absolutely correct, I'm not versed in American law, so I can't argue about it, but I'm sure that the two attorneys appointed to this case will relish _this_ debate that's going to see it's sequel in a higher forum.

I'll read Dershowitz's argument though.

----------


## ENT

{Quote larvidchr} "Criminal cases should never be tried by mainstream media and lowlife public feeding frenzy"

They aren't and can't be. We can argue and comment about it until the cows come home but it will be up to the US courts in the end.

----------


## ENT

> .....a statement like that was pretty "tongue in cheek"......at least I thought the confusion with a bag of skittles bit might give it away....


OK I'll laugh  :Smile:

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> That's not what the court thinks.
> 
> 
> And that's not what the vaunted legal brain Alan Dershowitz thinks:
> 
> Charges Against Zimmerman Wont Hold Up. 
> ...


To a considerable extent this suggests (again)  that the whole thing is purely political....pressure from the WH on down.  Prosecutor who needs votes to keep her job etc etc..

  Quite impressive little gun that Kal Tec 9mm....and only about $250 ...designed and sold as a light and inexpensive _defensive_ weapon....Hope the defence lawyer remembers to say that faced with a hoodied 6ft plus person; regardless of race or ethnic origin; with or without Skittles,  on a dark and rainy night in Florida,  it might seem a bit on the light side...  I'm sure if he's a really great lawyer he will bring it up at some point.... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  

  Not a case winner by any means, but one more small thing that eats into the vigilante out hunting black folks image that some have tried to create.

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> 
> The Judge should throw the case out as having no merit.
> 
> For fuk's sake, Zim was defending himself!
> 
> 
> Yes, I'd shit myself if someone I was stalking came at me with a packet of skittles, a coke and a mobile phone. Clearly the only solution is to execute them.


You forgot the hoodie. And the blackitude. Off with his head.

----------


## ENT

Watched the video of Dershowitz's analysis.
He's not in full possession of the facts either, as he says, and simply tears a strip off Cory's handling of the case and the system of public election to appoint a judge in the US.
More a political view than a legal appraisement of the affidavit, in my opinion.

He did point out that he was somewhat puzzled as to why all the information pertaining to the charge had not been made public.
I think that Corey exercised her right to withhold any information from the public that _she_ deemed necessary, to allow for both the prosecution and the defence to negotiate in _the judge's chambers_ ,as to how that information will be used in the case.

This could result in a plea bargain, as Dershowitz points out.

----------


## sabang

Dershowitz is a world class jerkwad anyway, and his 'analysis' is worth nothing- he's just been reading the media, like us.
I daresay the Trial is a few months away, and then we will see the real circumstances, what is real and what isn't.

----------


## guyinthailand

_




 Originally Posted by Boon Mee







 Originally Posted by ENT


That's not what the court thinks.


And that's not what the vaunted legal brain Alan Dershowitz thinks:

Charges Against Zimmerman Won’t Hold Up.


_


> _ 
> 
> “It’s irresponsible and unethical. . . .  This affidavit doesn’t even  make it to probable cause.  Everything in this affidavit is consistent  with a defense of self-defense"_


 _

Harvard Law Professor, Alan Dershowitz, from the above link:_ _

"It won't make it past a judge on a 2nd degree murder charge.  There is simply nothing in there that would justify 2nd degree murder.  The elements of the crime aren't established...There's nothing in there of course either about the stains on the back of Zimmerman's shirt, the blood on the back of his head, the bloody nose.  It's not only thin, it's irresponsible.  

"I think what you have here is an elected public official who made a campaign speech last night for reelection when she gave her presentation and way overcharged (Zimmerman).  

"This case will--if the evidence is no stronger than what appears in the probable cause affidavit--result in an acquittal....It's worse than that:  It's irresponsible and unethical in not including the material that favors the defendant.  The affidavit doesn't even make it to probable cause.  Everything in the affidavit is completely consistent with a defense of self-defense. 

"Even if he (Zimmerman) was the provocateur you still have traditional self-defense under Florida law, if in fact Zimmerman provoked it.  But then Martin got on top and was banging his head against the ground, he still has a traditional right of self-defense.  There is nothing in this affidavit that suggests a  crime.  A good judge will throw this out.

"It's unethical to charge 2nd degree murder in order to get a plea of manslaughter, so I think this prosecutor has a lot of questions to answer.  She'll win a lot of popularity contests. 

"Nobody seems to be rooting for the truth...except Martin's parents...I have nothing but praise for the way they are handling this."
_

----------


## guyinthailand

> Dershowitz is a world class jerkwad anyway, and his 'analysis' is worth nothing- he's just been reading the media, like us.
> I daresay the Trial is a few months away, and then we will see the real circumstances, what is real and what isn't.


If you listen to Professor Dershowitz at the link provided you will see he has read very carefully the affidavit, something I doubt you or I have done.  

A Harvard Law Professor's analysis is worth nothing?  (the youngest full professor of law in Harvard's history at 28 years old.  He is 73 now and currently advising Julian Assange's legal team).

What you mean is you don't like what he is saying.

----------


## ENT

*Conflict of Interest*
State v Zimmerman
A conflict of interest in a case may derail the whole of a judicial process, so a rigorous examination of potential jurors is maintained
This can be seen as many potential jurors either voluntarily declare that conflict or are discovered to have such, then discharged.
Similarly a conflict of interest arose during the initial arrest and police interview of Zimmerman, when charges against him did not proceed.

[The lead homicide investigator in the shooting of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin recommended that neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter the night of the shooting.

But Sanford, Fla., Investigator Chris Serino was instructed to not press charges against Zimmerman because the state attorney's office headed by Norman Wolfinger determined there wasn't enough evidence to lead to a conviction.
*Wolfinger has since removed himself from the case*.
Was Wolfinger doing a favor for a retired judge? 

It should be noted that George Zimmerman may have received favorable treatment from the police because of his family.According to court records, *his father is retired Supreme Court Magistrate Judge Robert Zimmerman and his mother Gladys Zimmerman was a court clerk.* Connections in the legal community run deep and go far.

*Might this also explain the younger Zimmerman's record that includes three "closed arrests"?*]
(Excerpts from;- BREAKING NEWS: Connection with Judge Zimmerman and State Attorney - Topix)

A similar situation arises in the case of Judge Jessica Rechsiedler.

*Judge in Zimmerman Case Reveals Potential Conflict of Interest*
(NewsCore) - The judge overseeing the George Zimmerman case revealed Friday she had a* potential conflict-of-interest* link to a TV analyst hired to provide commentary on the trial.

Seminole Circuit *Judge Jessica Recksiedler voluntarily disclosed* to attorneys Friday that her husband is a law partner in the same firm as Mark NeJame, who has a contract with CNN to provide on-air analysis of Zimmerman's trial.

Neither side immediately asked Recksiedler to recuse herself, but Mark O'Mara, Zimmerman's attorney, indicated he was troubled by the news and *may ask for a new judge* next week.

NeJame has also said that* Zimmerman's family had asked him to take on the case.* NeJame turned down the opportunity and referred the family to O'Mara.
Judge in Zimmerman Case Reveals Potential Conflict of Interest

When leading figures and others in society honestly declare such conflicts of interest, situations which require a hidden agenda may be circumvented as those undisclosed interests invariably operate according to an undisclosed agenda where some conspire for personal advantage to the detriment of the public good.

*Justice will only be served when transparency in procedure is evident, and governance is publicly accountable.*

----------


## Boon Mee

> To a considerable extent this suggests (again)  that the whole thing is purely political....pressure from the WH on down.  Prosecutor who needs votes to keep her job etc etc..


It is _purely political_ as evidenced by the race-baiters from Obama on down.

The Prosecutor of course wants to keep her job but as Lav previously mentioned, this case is a freebie for her - on the surface.  Although, any Judge with a brain, will toss the case into the rubbish bin as having 'no merit'.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> 
>  To a considerable extent this suggests (again)  that the whole thing is purely political....pressure from the WH on down.  Prosecutor who needs votes to keep her job etc etc..
> 
> 
> It is _purely political_ as evidenced by the race-baiters from Obama on down.
> 
> The Prosecutor of course wants to keep her job but as Lav previously mentioned, this case is a freebie for her - on the surface.  Although, any Judge with a brain, will toss the case into the rubbish bin as having 'no merit'.


Harvard Professor of Law Dershowitz agrees.

*"There is nothing in this affidavit that suggests a  crime.  A good judge will throw this out."*

----------


## sabang

> What you mean is you don't like what he is saying.


No, what I mean is he is a world class jerkwad. I certainly haven't read the Affidavit, and neither do I propose to. The matter is headed for Trial, and that is where points of evidence will be discussed. There is little point pulling some right or left wing rent-a-scholar from the closet at this juncture.

----------


## guyinthailand

Oh, come on, it is evident from your previous posts on this thread that you think an injustice was done to poor innocent Trayvon Martin.

If Professor Dershowitz was supporting your views you would be cheering him on.

----------


## sabang

> If Dershowitz was supporting your views you would be cheering about it.


Utter Bullshit. As I said-



> There is little point pulling some right or left wing rent-a-scholar from the closet at this juncture.


And as I've repeatedly said, the matter should head to a properly constituted Court of Law- not this puerile Trial by Media, where we know exactly what each outlets 'spin' will be without even reading it.

As I also mentioned, an arraignment on Second- rather than First- degree murder charges seems fair to me. For the non-Amerkins here, that means a manslaughter rather than murder charge. A Trial is not a verdict of guilt.

Have some faith in your own countries Legal system, ffs.

----------


## ENT

The Affidavit.
State v Zimmerman

Read here:
State of Florida vs. George Zimmerman | Affidavit of Probable Cause - Document - NYTimes.com

----------


## ENT

> Oh, come on, it is evident from your previous posts on this thread that you think an injustice was done to poor innocent Trayvon Martin.
> 
> If Professor Dershowitz was supporting your views you would be cheering him on.


It's obvious from _all_ your posts that you're a rednecked jerk and a no-brainer.

----------


## Cujo

> Oh, come on, it is evident from your previous posts on this thread that you think an injustice was done to poor innocent Trayvon Martin.


It was.
He was a 17 year old unarmed kid walking back to his dads house with a soda and a packet of skittles when he was stalked (followed?) and shot by a gun toting self appointed vigilante.
Simple.

----------


## guyinthailand

> It's obvious from _all_ your posts that you're a rednecked jerk and a no-brainer.




Yes, I wish I were as smart as Ent, who made posts such as "he had only one brain and two hands" (and so couldn't possibly have used his mobile phone and gun simultaneously--say what Ent?!) and then your lie about Zimmerman's "false claims"; and you claimed that I needed a 'bitch slapping' and your gay bashing and all your other misleading, unnecessary, unhelpful posts many of which just state the obvious and contribute nothing of value (like the one above).

Yeah, I wish I were _that_ smart to have made perceptive posts like Ent's.  I'm so jealous!

----------


## guyinthailand

> Originally Posted by guyinthailand
> 
> 
> Oh, come on, it is evident from your previous posts on this thread that you think an injustice was done to poor innocent Trayvon Martin.
> 
> 
> It was.
> He was a 17 year old unarmed kid walking back to his dads house with a soda and a packet of skittles when he was stalked (followed?) and shot by a gun toting self appointed vigilante.
> Simple.


So Zimmerman's nose was broken and head bashed in from the skittles?  Is that what you're saying, Sherlock?

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by guyinthailand
> ...


Was his nose broken?
Head 'bashed in'?
Really?
What I'm saying is if he had minded his own business this would never have happened.
The police dispatcher already advised him not to follow Trayvon, if he'd followed that advice this never would have happened.
If he hadn't confronted

----------


## sabang

> He was a 17 year old unarmed kid


fact



> walking back to his dads house


falsehood- it was his dads girlfriends house



> with a soda and a packet of skittles


fact



> when he was stalked (followed?)


conjecture



> and shot


fact



> by a gun toting


fact



> self appointed vigilante.


conjecture, potentially hyperbole


It's going to Trial by Law, as is right and proper.


Wider legal implications may revolve around these 'Stand your Ground' laws and their legality, impartiality, and Constitutionality- but that will have no effect on this particular Trial, because they were the laws in place at the time of this shooting incident.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Originally Posted by guyinthailand
> 
> If Dershowitz was supporting your views you would be cheering about it.
> 
> 
> Utter Bullshit.


Nah, come on Sabang: admit you think Zimmerman is guilty. You're doing yourself a disservice to pretend otherwise, to pretend that what Dershowitz says doesn't piss you off cause it flies in the face of your preconceptions.





> As I also mentioned, an arraignment on Second- rather than First- degree murder charges seems fair to me. For the non-Amerkins here, that means a manslaughter rather than murder charge. A Trial is not a verdict of guilt.


Oops, murder of any kind is not manslaughter.  He is being charged with murder.  Don't confuse the two.

And you say "_A trial is not a verdict of guilt._"  

Really? I didn't know that.




> Have some faith in your own countries Legal system, ffs.


What led you to believe I didn't have any faith in it?  

No matter what you think of Dershowitz and Zimmerman, Dershowitz's allegations are noteworthy.

_"This case will--if the evidence is no stronger than what appears in  the probable cause affidavit--result in an acquittal....It's worse than  that:  It's irresponsible and unethical in not including the material  that favors the defendant.  The affidavit doesn't even make it to  probable cause.  Everything in the affidavit is completely consistent  with a defense of self-defense. 

"Even if he (Zimmerman) was the provocateur you still have traditional  self-defense under Florida law, if in fact Zimmerman provoked it.  But  then Martin got on top and was banging his head against the ground, he  still has a traditional right of self-defense.  There is nothing in this  affidavit that suggests a  crime.  A good judge will throw this out.
 
"It's unethical to charge 2nd degree murder in order to get a plea of  manslaughter, so I think this prosecutor has a lot of questions to  answer._

----------


## guyinthailand

> Was his nose broken?
> Head 'bashed in'?
> Really?
> What I'm saying is if he had minded his own business this would never have happened.
> The police dispatcher already advised him not to follow Trayvon, if he'd followed that advice this never would have happened.
> If he hadn't confronted


It is not clear who really did the 'confronting'.  True, if Zimmerman had not been there or had left early it wouldn't have happened. But that doesn't mean or prove Zimmerman is at fault, or that Martin didn't initiate the attack.  You can't fault a person for merely checking out what he thought was a suspicious person in the neighborhood.

Zimmerman, his family and his lawyers have all claimed his nose was broken.  His head was clearly bashed in.  There was stains on his shirt, blood on his head and nose, according to Professor of Law Alan Dershowitz.

Of course Zimmerman's version is Martin attacked him.  It remains to be seen if that is true--if we ever learn that--and it remains to be seen if a jury believes Zimmerman.

There is some merit to the idea that if you are carrying a gun you must do all in your power not to use it, certainly not to start or even escalate a violent confrontation.  If you do then you can be found guilty.  (For example, a guy spits in your girlfriends face, you push the guy, the guy pulls a knife, you pull your gun and kill him.  In that case, you could be found guilty of escalating the situation--you should have just left the scene.

The question is did something like the following happen:  Zimmerman was following Martin, Martin turned around confronted Zimmerman, attacked Zimmerman.  For some reason, Zimmerman's head and nose were smashed in.  Or did Zimmerman do something where Martin had to defend himself, did Zimmerman just pull his concealed gun on Martin without having first been attacked by Martin?

----------


## sabang

^^ Seriously, you have displayed to this forum a rather limited intellect, because of your utter inability to think objectively or impartially.

Wait for the Trial, and let the matter be decided by due Legal process. You have no choice in the matter anyway, you are merely spouting your own impotence. Did you honestly think left or right wing media posturing and lobbying would effect the legal deliberations? Do you really think it will effect the Judges decision? Then you have no faith in your own countries legal system. It's going to tried before a Court of Law, and that is that. No point in wasting any more time on yourself, or the matter at hand- because the decision to Try has already been made, and I have already stated I agree with it.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> 
> It's obvious from _all_ your posts that you're a rednecked jerk and a no-brainer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You wish, dumbo.

The video demonstrating the use of the  Kel-TecPF 9 shows it being used with two hands and one brain, focused on the target. 
You insist that this is somehow stupid

You think that you can focus on your cell phone and concentrate on a fight, meanwhile going for your gun at the same time.
You'd likely end up shooting yourself in the foot. A no-brainer. Only in your dreams. You're conjecture is stupid, really stupid. 

As a I pointed out, a bitch slapping session is not what I want, but you're insisting on one, repeatedly, bitch, which you obviously are, whining on the way you do. You deserve one.
I don't gay bash, I called you gay, I think you are a closet gay, likely worse, like Sharky, a thug, carrying concealed knives and a gun.

Non of my posts have been misleading, they've been as to the point as possible, presenting all available information in a balanced way, along with my opinions, which you object to. Too bad. Go away and cry about it.

----------


## guyinthailand

I'll make a deal with you, Ent.  I promise to 'go cry' if you stop making your standard useless posts. (I'll be crying for joy!)

And you proved my point yet again about all your useless posts with the one above.  

Uh, did it occur to you that the video you saw isn't the only way to use a handgun.  Believe it or not, Ent, there are people who can hold a gun in one hand and a phone in the other.  It's not difficult.  Maybe for you, especially since you have a terribly hard time grasping this little fact. Not that this gun in one/two hands even matters.  It doesn't!  But somehow you've sidetracked the discussion yet again.

didn't you read the other thread on homophobia: people (like you) who constantly gay bash are the true closeted gays.

And P.S. the 'whining' you say you hear is really me kicking your ass all over this thread.  You don't deserve a bitch slapping.  What you do deserve, and what I repeatedly hand out to you, is a metaphorical ass thumping every time you make yet another idiotic post.

I should say "whining idiotic post"

You whiner...You can't compete intellectually so you call me names, gay this and bitch slapping that and dumbo.

Now that's what I call whining!

You whiner, you.

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by guyinthailand
> ...


It's a bit odd how those marks and injuries seem to have disappeared from the discussion....even though they seem to be real, factual and would clearly be critical parts of the defence case.

Again there is no suggestion of motive....not even a remote suggestion of why Zimmerman would have shot Martin....unless he was trying to defend himself.

To question why some stranger" is wandering through your neighborhood and---"acting a bit strange"  is hardly "profiling"     To follow this person a bit to see what they might be up to, or where they go....is hardly "stalking"..  These actions would seem to be *reasonable, under the circumstances*....there had been a rash of break ins and other crimes in the area, so suspicion is hardly unusual.

It has been repeated over and over (including in the affidivid) that the police dispatcher "instructed" Zimmerman not to continue following.......but that is not quite what was said.   "We don't _need_ you to do that"   is not quite the same as "do not do that"  The first is more like advise.  The second is an instruction.

Zimmerman could very easily have read what was said to mean....OK they don't *need* me to keep up my observation....but what they hell...I want to know what this dude is up to....and the cops will appreciate it when they get here......

(does a "stalker" who has "profiled" a target with intent to kill....call the cops first??   That is so fucking illogical it's almost funny.  

Zimmerman has already explained what occured after this call.... but again his explanation (which seems reasonable and credible)  has been dismissed by those who have him convicted from day one.   

Now we are getting hints of additional witnesses never previously mentioned.  The original eye witness seems to have been shelved.  This witness stated that they saw Martin on top of Zimmerman......who has cuts on the back of his head and stains on the back of his clothes....  I wonder what these mysterious new witnesses are saying and why have they just emerged after all this time?

----------


## guyinthailand

> ^^ Seriously, you have displayed to this forum a rather limited intellect, because of your utter inability to think objectively or impartially.
> 
> Wait for the Trial, and let the matter be decided by due Legal process. You have no choice in the matter anyway, you are merely spouting your own impotence.



Okay, Sabang, oh almighty arbiter of all things intellectual.  I defer to your infinite wisdom, oh wise one.

"_Spouting your own impotence"?_ 

I've never heard that much brilliance before! 
  Dershowitz really got you two (Ent and Sabang) worked into a tizzy, didnt it?  Truly, it is you who is spouting...a virtual fountain of invective and sputtering nonsense ("spouting your own impotence"--what kind of idiot makes statements like this? Answer: the village idiot!)




> your utter inability to think objectively or impartially.


Really?  I thought what I just posted was a pretty impartial look at it.  

Here it is again.



> It is not clear who really did the 'confronting'. True, if Zimmerman had not been there or had left early it wouldn't have happened. But that doesn't mean or prove Zimmerman is at fault, or that Martin didn't initiate the attack. You can't fault a person for merely checking out what he thought was a suspicious person in the neighborhood.
> 
> Zimmerman, his family and his lawyers have all claimed his nose was broken. His head was clearly bashed in. There was stains on his shirt, blood on his head and nose, according to Professor of Law Alan Dershowitz.
> 
> Of course Zimmerman's version is Martin attacked him. It remains to be seen if that is true--if we ever learn that--and it remains to be seen if a jury believes Zimmerman.
> 
> There is some merit to the idea that if you are carrying a gun you must do all in your power not to use it, certainly not to start or even escalate a violent confrontation. If you do then you can be found guilty. (For example, a guy spits in your girlfriends face, you push the guy, the guy pulls a knife, you pull your gun and kill him. In that case, you could be found guilty of escalating the situation--you should have just left the scene.
> 
> The question is did something like the following happen: Zimmerman was following Martin, Martin turned around confronted Zimmerman, attacked Zimmerman. For some reason, Zimmerman's head and nose were smashed in. Or did Zimmerman do something where Martin had to defend himself, did Zimmerman just pull his concealed gun on Martin without having first been attacked by Martin?

----------


## sabang

> Dershowitz


The reason I dislike dirty Dershowitz has _nothing_ to do with Trayvon Martin. Hint- Google is your Friend.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

And how many more words you wish to waste between now and when the Court is finally in session is entirely up to you, and utterly irrelevant to the Legal proceedings that have now been instigated.

----------


## robuzo

^So, we Google for the reasons and try to guess which one is yours? Or maybe there is more than one? How about a clue? Does it begin with "I"?

----------


## chitown

Post 876 - mark it down. Zimmerman will walk with a justified self defense homicide acquittal. *If* they can find a jury that has not been prejudiced by the media guilty before trial conviction or he does not cave and takes a plea bargain.

----------


## robuzo

> Post 876 - mark it down. Zimmerman will walk with a justified self defense homicide acquittal. *If* they can find a jury that has not been prejudiced by the media guilty before trial conviction or he does not cave and takes a plea bargain.


No reason to think otherwise. His counsel would be derelict to enter a plea at this point, based upon what is known publicly, at least. The jury selection problem cuts both ways.

----------


## guyinthailand

> It's a bit odd how those marks and injuries seem to have disappeared from the discussion....even though they seem to be real, factual and would clearly be critical parts of the defence case.
> 
> Again there is no suggestion of motive....not even a remote suggestion of why Zimmerman would have shot Martin....unless he was trying to defend himself.
> 
> To question why some stranger" is wandering through your neighborhood and---"acting a bit strange"  is hardly "profiling"     To follow this person a bit to see what they might be up to, or where they go....is hardly "stalking"..  These actions would seem to be *reasonable, under the circumstances*....there had been a rash of break ins and other crimes in the area, so suspicion is hardly unusual.
> 
> It has been repeated over and over (including in the affidivid) that the police dispatcher "instructed" Zimmerman not to continue following.......but that is not quite what was said.   "We don't _need_ you to do that"   is not quite the same as "do not do that"  The first is more like advise.  The second is an instruction.
> 
> Zimmerman could very easily have read what was said to mean....OK they don't *need* me to keep up my observation....but what they hell...I want to know what this dude is up to....and the cops will appreciate it when they get here......
> ...


_koman: "(does a "stalker" who has "profiled" a target with intent to  kill....call the cops first??   That is so fucking illogical it's almost  funny." _ 
_
and

"Zimmerman has already explained what occured after this call.... but  again his explanation (which seems reasonable and credible)  has been  dismissed by those who have him convicted from day one".  _ 

Here here!

----------


## ENT

> I'll make a deal with you, Ent.  I promise to 'go cry'
> You whiner...You can't compete intellectually so you call me names, gay this and bitch slapping that and dumbo.
> 
> Now that's what I call whining!
> 
> You whiner, you.


Oooooh!   


 :smiley laughing:

----------


## chitown

> Originally Posted by chitown
> 
> 
> Post 876 - mark it down. Zimmerman will walk with a justified self defense homicide acquittal. *If* they can find a jury that has not been prejudiced by the media guilty before trial conviction or he does not cave and takes a plea bargain.
> 
> 
> No reason to think otherwise. His counsel would be derelict to enter a plea at this point, based upon what is known publicly, at least. The jury selection problem cuts both ways.


From what I read, Zimmerman rang the prosecutor. That was stupid. He and his family and friends have been talking...a lot. He needs to shut up. They need to shut up.

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by chitown
> ...


Yes, that's what his original counsel said when they dropped him, and hearing that it was little wonder that they did. Also, too, calling Hannity.  Still, there are a lot of ways a good attorney will be able to win this case. There is a lot of talk about how the Sanford PD botched the investigation. It seems pretty obvious they did, but that also cuts both ways. Just ask OJ.

----------


## sabang

> Does it begin with "I"?


And F

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> Does it begin with "I"?
> 
> 
> And F


So you are not upset about Claus von Bulow  :Smile: . I liked "Reversal of Fortune." The actor who played Dershowitz was also a crazed Likudnik.

----------


## ENT

O'Mara's already said that he's going try to get Zimmerman out on bail as he wants greater access to his client to prepare his defence.
O'mara has since made an application for a bond hearing.

The result of his application being;

An April 20 bond hearing was set for George Zimmerman, the neighborhood-watch volunteer charged in the shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.

Mr. Zimmerman's attorney, Mark O'Mara, has said he plans to seek Mr. Zimmerman's release from a correctional facility in Sanford, Fla., while legal proceedings are under way. Mr. Zimmerman, 28 years old, has been charged with second-degree murder in the fatal shooting of Mr. Martin, following a confrontation that prosecutors allege was provoked when Mr. Zimmerman aggressively pursued Mr. Martin.

George Zimmerman Bond Hearing Set in Trayvon Martin Case - WSJ.com

In a week's time, Zimmerman may _again_ have to live life as a recluse, as before his arrest "he couldn't even go to a 7/11 for a soda", as one report said or "visit a psychologist" as his previous attorneys stated, for fear of being recognised and attacked.

Doubts concerning his present mental state have been voiced, and I think he's naturally stressed out and confused by what's developed into a 2nd degree murder charge, which he didn't expect at all.

So where's he going to stay when and if he's bailed?
At home? With his parents? Obviously not, as both addresses have become known.

Will the state provide him with a "safe house"? Unusual if they did, it would be extraordinary for Zimmerman to be so guarded this way.

It's going to be tough for him outside, unless of course he has some benefactors and guardians willing to care for him.
He's going to need a lot to just keep his act together before another hearing then a trial.

----------


## guyinthailand

Would be interesting if the 'New Black Panthers' do locate him.  

I wouldn't place any bets on the Panthers winning _that_ confrontation.

----------


## Boon Mee

George Zimmerman is a neighborhood watch captain; Alfred Dreyfus was a  French artillery captain. Similarities between the politically and  racially motivated railroadings are striking. From Wikipedia:The Dreyfus affair was a political scandal that divided  France in the 1890s and the early 1900s. It involved the conviction for  treason in November 1894 of Captain Alfred Dreyfus, a young French  artillery officer of Alsatian Jewish descent. Sentenced to life  imprisonment for allegedly having communicated French military secrets  to the German Embassy in Paris,  Dreyfus was sent to the penal colony at Devils Island in French Guiana  and placed in solitary confinement, where he was to spend almost 5  years.
 Two years later, in 1896, evidence came to light identifying a French  Army major named Ferdinand Walsin Esterhazy as the real culprit. After  high-ranking military officials suppressed the new evidence, a military  court unanimously acquitted Esterhazy after the second day of his trial.  The Army accused Dreyfus of additional charges based on false documents  fabricated by a French counter-intelligence officer, Hubert-Joseph  Henry, who was seeking to re-confirm Dreyfuss conviction. Henrys  superiors accepted his documents without full examination.
 Word of the military courts framing of Alfred Dreyfus and of an attendant cover-up began to spread, chiefly owing to _Jaccuse_, a vehement public open letter published in a Paris newspaper in January 1898 by the notable writer Émile Zola. 
 Eventually, all the accusations against Alfred Dreyfus were  demonstrated to be baseless. In 1906 Dreyfus was exonerated and  reinstated as a major in the French Army. He served during the whole of  World War I, ending his service with the rank of Lieutenant-Colonel.Lets hope it turns out as well in the end for Zimmerman...

----------


## ENT

> Lets hope it turns out as well in the end for Zimmerman...


Like fwk. He blew it.

----------


## attaboy

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> That's not what the court thinks.
> 
> 
> And that's not what the vaunted legal brain Alan Dershowitz thinks:
> 
> Charges Against Zimmerman Wont Hold Up. 
> ...







Trayvon's mother, Sybrina Fulton was on the O'Reilley Factor. 



> *O'REILLY:* All right, if at the end of that trial  Zimmerman is found not guilty because of this quirky law, this "Stand  Your Ground" and you see that it was a fair trial, do you think with all  the emotion running through you that you could come out and say, hey,  he got a fair trial? Is that possible?
> 
> 
> *FULTON:* It's part -- it's quite possible. I believe in the judicial system and I believe that he can get a fair trial.


Zimmerman's arrest the path to justice? - Interviews - The O'Reilly Factor - Fox News

----------


## ENT

I've read the affidavit and the  proposed grounds for a charge of 2nd degree murder based on Zimmerman's 911 calls and his subsequent behaviour.

All other informations pertaining to that charge are held by law in the confidence of State Attorney Corey.

My opinion is that Zimmerman will receive a fair trial based on evidence, not conjecture.
State Attorney Corey has stated that not all evidence pertaining to the fact of the matter has been disclosed, as is due process under US law.

We will have to wait for matters to eventuate before jumping to conclusions about this case.

Zimmerman's bond application is due in a few days, and that will be another source of alarm and discussion.

----------


## sabang

> Everything in this affidavit is consistent with a defense of self-defense


Hardly requires a Dershowitz to nut out the fact that will be the likely defence case.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

B'waaah. Everyones picking on me- 'cus I'm white.
B'waaah. Everyones picking on me- 'cus I'm black.
Pffft. Jeez guys, try growing a set.

----------


## guyinthailand

Harvard Professor of Law Alan Dershowitz's demonstrating the lack of merit in the charges against Zimmerman has really thrown Sabang and Ent for a loop.

Sabang and Ent won't get to use their hanging rope as soon as they had hoped (or at all).
*
It's like when they were told Santa doesn't exist.*  B'waaah.

----------


## koman

> Harvard Professor of Law Alan Dershowitz's demonstrating the lack of merit in the charges against Zimmerman has really thrown Sabang and Ent for a loop.
> 
> It's like when they were told Santa doesn't exist. B'waaah.


 
The thing with Law Professors is that they are always morons when their expert opinions conflict with your own thinking,  but they are always brilliant when they argee with you...... :Smile:

----------


## Boon Mee

Dershowitz has been right more often than wrong.  If memory serves, he was on the 'wrong' side with OJ.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Originally Posted by guyinthailand
> 
> 
> Harvard Professor of Law Alan Dershowitz's demonstrating the lack of merit in the charges against Zimmerman has really thrown Sabang and Ent for a loop.
> 
> It's like when they were told Santa doesn't exist. B'waaah.
> 
> 
>  
> The thing with Law Professors is that they are always morons when their expert opinions conflict with your own thinking,  but they are always brilliant when they argee with you......



that's what I told sabang above: the reason I thought he was ranting at Dershowitz was because Sabang didn't like what Dershowitz was saying.

----------


## ENT

A professor in law simply professes his opinion, whether in an interview or a lecture.
His views are always subject to debate, and in this case are evidently substantially debatable.

I don't agree with his views, primarily because of his objections to lack of full disclosure of evidence pertaining to the charge.

Dershowitz is attempting to ridicule the justice system as applied by SA Corey's information, published, relevant to the charge.

A red herring.

----------


## robuzo

Dershowitz is an attention-whore. Oddly enough, this case seems to be attracting them.

----------


## ENT

It does and it will.

----------


## sabang

Curious to see how long the Press can milk this thing out- has a Trial date even been set yet? I daresay it will be several months away.

----------


## Boon Mee

> Curious to see how long the Press can milk this thing out- has a Trial date even been set yet? I daresay it will be several months away.


It's not the press that's milking it out but the race-baiters like Obama, Farrakan, Sharpton & Jesse Jackson.  The press wouldn't have anything to report if those assholes would shut their gobs...

----------


## sabang

Of course- they're all picking on you 'cus you're White.  :Smile:

----------


## chitown

> Curious to see how long the Press can milk this thing out- has a Trial date even been set yet? I daresay it will be several months away.


The judge will bounce this before it gets to a jury trial.

----------


## Boon Mee

> Originally Posted by sabang
> 
> 
> Curious to see how long the Press can milk this thing out- has a Trial date even been set yet? I daresay it will be several months away.
> 
> 
> The judge will bounce this before it gets to a jury trial.


If 'They' haven't gotten to the beforehand...

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by sabang
> 
> 
> Curious to see how long the Press can milk this thing out- has a Trial date even been set yet? I daresay it will be several months away.
> 
> 
> The judge will bounce this before it gets to a jury trial.


Supposedly the trial starts next month. Hard to believe.

----------


## sabang

I suppose the most blatant media milking will now switch to rentalheads speculating on the outcome of the Trial. Of course, even dimwits will know what the rentalheads 'educated guess' will be, according to the media outlet and it's established bias. Yawwn.

----------


## Cujo

Videos: News, Sports, Entertainment, Technology & More - USATODAY.com
Zimmerman in court.

----------


## guyinthailand

> I suppose the most blatant media milking will now switch to rentalheads speculating on the outcome of the Trial. Of course, even dimwits will know what the rentalheads 'educated guess' will be, according to the media outlet and it's established bias. Yawwn.


You can tell from the above that Sabang is preparing himself for not getting to see Zimmerman hang.

Good coping mechanism, Sabang.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> I suppose the most blatant media milking will now switch to rentalheads speculating on the outcome of the Trial. Of course, even dimwits will know what the rentalheads 'educated guess' will be, according to the media outlet and it's established bias. Yawwn.



Cue 24/7 coverage and analysis by Fox "We hate darkies" News.

----------


## DrAndy

> Originally Posted by DrAndy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by ENT
> ...


you totally miss the point, either deliberately or otherwise

you stated it would * "make or break" her career* 

it may enhance her status if the case is handled well, but if she loses, and it is not due to her incompetence, then it will not break her career, no way

the fact that the various lawyers and judges have been chosen carefully has no bearing on anything; pressure was brought so that the charges were made

----------


## DrAndy

> Originally Posted by chitown
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by sabang
> ...


 
they may "start" the trial but it will be postponed unless a plea bargain is agreed beforehand

----------


## ENT

There's no doubt that Zimmerman will get a fair trial.
Judge Recksiedler has given notice of a conflict of interest in the case, as her husband works with a lawyer from the same firm as Zimmerman's lawyer. Mark O'Mara. 
Recksiedler has been a judge for only 16 months
The potential for bias favouring Zimmerman is recognised and O'Mara, not the prosecution will file a motion to have Reckseidler removed from the case.

SEMINOLE COUNTY, Fla. — The attorney for George Zimmerman is expected to file a motion to try to get the judge in the second-degree murder case removed on Monday.
Prosecutors say Zimmerman fatally shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in the chest during a confrontation on Feb. 26. Zimmerman said he shot Martin in self-defense and has pleaded not guilty.

Mark O'Mara told WFTV he will file a motion first thing Monday morning at the Seminole County courthouse. 

It stems from a potential conflict of interest with Seminole County Judge Jessica Recksiedler. 

"Mr. Zimmerman had contacted Mark NeJame to represent him prior to you, Mr. O'Mara. As I have disclosed previously, my husband works with Mark NeJame," said Recksiedler during a status hearing last week. 

O'Mara told WFTV that he does believe Recksiedler would give Zimmerman a fair trial, but under the circumstance he is not taking any chances. 
George Zimmerman&#39;s attorney to file motion to remove judge... | www.wftv.com

----------


## Thaihome

> Originally Posted by chitown
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by sabang
> ...


 
No. You can plainly hear in the video of the first appearance the arraignment is scheduled for May 29th. The first appearance was nothing more than that judge saying the affidavit was probable cause to hold Zimmerman for the arraignment.  

 At the arraignment, he will enter his plea to the charges.  At that point a trial date will be set.  It must be held within 175 days unless Zimmerman files a speedy trial motion which can require a trial within 60 days of the arraignment.

 Pre-Trial motions and hearings could drag this on for well over year before it goes to trial, unless part of the defense strategy is to get it over quickly.  
Florida Rules of Criminal Procedure | Chapter 8, Florida Statutes 2010
TH

----------


## ENT

Good info, Thaihome.
US court procedures seem are more complex than in UK and Commonwealth law.

I don't think Zimmerman would want to see this drag out too long, being basically in solitary confinement, in protective custody, not a pleasant experience.

At the arraignment, apart from being asked to plead, and a date for trial set, is there anything else that can be decided?

----------


## ENT

It gets even more complex as now the media pile in!


Media Companies Ask Judge to Open Florida Defendant’s File
April 16, 2012
Lawyers representing more than 20 media companies on Monday asked the Florida judge overseeing the trial of George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch organizer who killed the teenager Trayvon Martin, to unseal the court file.

The Seminole County judge who presided over Mr. Zimmerman’s brief court appearance on Thursday agreed to a request by Mark M. O’Mara, Mr. Zimmerman’s lawyer, to keep documents related to the case private. State Attorney Angela B. Corey did not object to Mr. O’Mara’s request during the hearing.

In *an eight-page motion,* the lawyers for the media companies, which included The New York Times Company, argued that the records were improperly sealed because Mr. O’Mara did not submit evidence showing that closing them was necessary to prevent a “serious and imminent” threat to the administration of justice.

George Freeman, assistant general counsel and vice president of the Times Company, said that the judge, Jessica J. Recksiedler, did not go through the procedural steps required before a file can be sealed. “Just because a case gets a lot of publicity does not mean that papers should be sealed,” Mr. Freeman said.

Mr. O’Mara had no comment on the motion because he was still reviewing it, said Jimmy Woods, a spokesman.
In an interview, Ms. Corey said that she was also reviewing the motion and the concerns outlined by the media companies. “We are doing our best to balance everyone’s rights,” she said.  
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/17/us...file.html?_r=1


A court date to hear the records motion has yet to be set. Zimmerman’s lawyer was set to return to court in front of Recksiedler on Friday for a bond hearing.

But the scheduling is still in flux. Miami Herald attorney Scott Ponce said Monday that the records hearing could not be set because the judge had just received the motion to recuse herself and “the hearing date would have to be worked out with the new judge.”

Read more here: Miami Herald, other media outlets sue to unseal George Zimmerman court documents - Trayvon Martin - MiamiHerald.com
Miami Herald, other media outlets sue to unseal George Zimmerman court documents - Trayvon Martin - MiamiHerald.com

The information sealed must be pretty controversial for the media to try and get their hands on it.
The judge in question Jessica Recksiedler, has only been a judge for 16 months, publicly elected into the position.

Here's another difference between US and UK procedures, where the public elect a judge in the US.
In other words, a judge has to be a politician to win a seat on the bench, it's not up to their skill in legal matters that is of prime concern.

So if someone young and good looking enough with the right connections and cash to back a campaign, as Recksiedler had, and the public are won over by her charm, she automatically becomes someone deemed responsible enough to decide a person's fate in court.
Apparently she was picked out of a pool of judges by lottery! Someone with far more experience than her is needed in this case.

Remember, it was Zimmerman's lawyer O'Mara, a friend of a friend of Judge Recksiedler's husband who asked her to seal the records.
It was O'Mara who motioned that *Judge Recksiedler be recused from the case, also, but only after, she'd sealed the documents.
*
*Why did he not do so before?* Both Judge Recksiedler and O'Mara knew there was a conflict of interest before O'Mara was even asked to represent Zimmerman, yet* he still was able to persuade Recksiedler to seal the records against proper procedure.*

Judge Recksiedler should have refused the appointment due to conflict of interest when State Attorney Angela Corey first appointed her as judge in the case.

So the media's assertion that proper procedure had not been followed is quite correct, in my view.
The records should be unsealed.
This procedure is going to drag on.

I don't think that the media are going to leave this issue alone, it smacks of cronyism at the outset.

----------


## Cujo

Media companies need a good slapdown methinks.

----------


## harrybarracuda

I think it's going to be hard enough to get a fair trial as it is, without the media playing judge, jury and possibly executioner.

----------


## ENT

*Media's motion to unseal the documents*.

Motion to Unseal Judicial and Public Records in Zimmerman Case

Closure is warranted only when the party seeking closure establishes:

1) Closure is necessary to prevent a serious and imminent threat to the administration of justice.

2) No alternatives are available, other than a change of venue, which ould protect a defendant's right to a fair trial; and

3) Closure would be effective in protecting the rights of the accused, without being broader than necessary to accomplish this purpose.

According to the motion, Zimmerman made no representation or offer any evidence why the documents should be sealed, as was his duty under court procedure.
Instead, his lawyer, O'Mara simply made a request which was granted by Judge Recksiedler without any grounds given, and no examination made of Zimmerman that any of the three above conditions had been met to grant such a closure of evidence.

----------


## ENT

> I think it's going to be hard enough to get a fair trial as it is, without the media playing judge, jury and possibly executioner.


Without the media this case wouldn't have even been investigated.

----------


## ENT

> Media companies need a good slapdown methinks.


Judge Recksiedler and attorney O'Mara are ones that deserve a slap down for side-stepping lawful procedure.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> I think it's going to be hard enough to get a fair trial as it is, without the media playing judge, jury and possibly executioner.
> 
> 
> Without the media this case wouldn't have even been investigated.


There is a huge black community that are enraged by this, and thanks to t'interwebnet it was never not going national.

So I think your statement is only partly accurate - sooner or later the Feds were going to notice this snowballing anger.

----------


## ENT

The FBI only move in where State problems jump out of the woodwork.
They didn't even start their investigation into the deal until after State Attorney Corey was landed with the problem when the previous SA jumped due to personal interference in mishandling the case in the beginning.

Left to the Feds the situation would have been investigated as a race issue after it had snowballed.

That SA, threatened to sue the media for disclosing his connection to Zimmerman's dad and that he'd personally intervened for Zimmerman to get the initial charge dropped.

----------


## ENT

The media are a necessary part of justice, reporting shit like this, otherwise who will?

----------


## Thaihome

> *Media's motion to unseal the documents*.
> 
> Motion to Unseal Judicial and Public Records in Zimmerman Case
> 
> Closure is warranted only when the party seeking closure establishes:
> 
> 1) Closure is necessary to prevent a serious and imminent threat to the administration of justice.
> 
> 2) No alternatives are available, other than a change of venue, which ould protect a defendant's right to a fair trial; and
> ...


The prosecutors did not dispute the sealing nor did the judge. The intense media coverage made the reasons for doing so obvious to everyone except of course the media who need it to sell newspapers and TV ad time.   

The media could care less if the coverage would prejudice a future jury.  In fact, they would likely consider it a sign of what a good job they have done of making it a sensation.

TH

----------


## ENT

I understand your point about the media being hungry for a story, that's normal.
What strikes me as odd is that normal procedure in sealing the evidence wasn't followed in such a high profile case as this.
To who's advantage was that? The defence, the prosecution or both? 
Or was it simply to curtail further speculation and possible distortion of the evidence.
We'll just have to wait and see on that one.
Unless someone springs a leak!

----------


## harrybarracuda

> The prosecutors did not dispute the sealing nor did the judge. The intense media coverage made the reasons for doing so obvious to everyone except of course the media who need it to sell newspapers and TV ad time.   
> 
> The media could care less if the coverage would prejudice a future jury.  In fact, they would likely consider it a sign of what a good job they have done of making it a sensation.
> 
> TH


Nail --> head.

----------


## ENT

I agree entirely that the media are in for the money on the deal.
Then again, would you rather have freedom of the press and information or its suppression by state imposed censorship?.

----------


## harrybarracuda

I'd rather have a free, responsible press, but that dream died a long time ago.

 :Smile:

----------


## ENT

I know what you mean.
One of my nephews was a journalist for a British paper, had his own column for a few years.
He got out of the game and became a cop!   :mid:

----------


## Thaihome

> I agree entirely that the media are in for the money on the deal.
> Then again, would you rather have freedom of the press and information or its suppression by state imposed censorship?.


 
Should censorship have been used to prevent NBC from doctoring the 911 call?  

Or how about the use of the 3 year old photo of Trayvon rather the his current Twitter gangsta self potrait and then use a 5 year old mug shot of Zimmerman? 

Should that have been censored?

TH

----------


## ENT

NBC committed a fraud. Censorship could not have prevented that.
Martin was falsely portrayed as a gangsta, wrong facebook account. That was withdrawn.
Unless you've got some other info.
Zimmerman was repeatedly shown as a plump smiling chap in a shirt and tie mostly, as well as his mug shot.
Totally different from his image in the arrest videos and the court appearance one

----------


## ENT

*Recksiedler steps down*

Judge Recksiedler stepped down yesterday ,prior to tomorrows hearing in the Zimmerman case.

Zimmerman is scheduled to return to court Friday for a bail hearing.

The Florida judge Wednesday approved a motion to disqualify herself from the criminal case involving a neighborhood watch volunteer who fatally shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, according to the court.

The defense team for George Zimmerman requested Monday that Seminole Circuit Judge Jessica Recksiedler, who was assigned to Zimmerman’s case, be removed after she revealed that her husband works with a CNN legal analyst.

Zimmerman’s defense attorney, Mark O’Mara, had said Monday he was confident the motion would be granted.

Recksiedler said in her decision that while the findings on each basis were “legally insufficient” for disqualification, “the cumulative effect of the events and the totality of the circumstances provides a legally sufficient basis for this court to grant the motion to disqualify,” a statement from the court saiurl=http://www.stylemagazine.com/jud]Judge Al Bennett Fundraising Reception | Houston Style Magazine - Urban Weekly Newspaper publication website[/url]

The rest of the article tells how O'Mara is a little concerned with progress, not too happy, I think.

----------


## Thaihome

> ... Martin was falsely portrayed as a gangsta, wrong facebook account. That was withdrawn.
> Unless you've got some other info.


Indeed the the picture from facebook was somebody else, but the I said Tweeter, Ent, not facebook. Nice try.

Not new, some 2 weeks old now. No retraction on this one.


All his tweets are here. You make up your mind.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/th...artins-tweets/
TH

*Second Trayvon Martin Twitter feed identified*

Published: 1:59 AM 03/29/2012 

By David Martosko - The Daily Caller Executive Editor


 
This image is the photograph the late Trayvon Martin used to represent his Twitter identity in late 2011, under the screen name "T33ZY_TAUGHT_M3." Although the Twitter account was deleted, The Daily Caller retrieved it from the social analytics website PeopleBrowsr. The upper-arm tattoo in the image matches one in a close-up photograph on Martin's MySpace page. (Image: Twitter)

 

This image from the late Trayvon Martin's MySpace page shows an upper-arm tattoo that matches one seen during late 2011 on the youth's Twitter account. The Daily Caller has brightened this image to show greater detail. (Image: MySpace)

 
This tweet, retrieved via the social analytics website PeopleBrowsr.com, shows the late Trayvon Martin tweeting a message that read, “Plzz shoot da #mf dat lied 2 u!” He was using the handle “T33ZY TAUGHT M3” near the end of 2011. (PeopleBrowsr/Twitter)

The Daily Caller has identified a second Twitter handle that was used by the late Trayvon Martin during the last weeks of 2011. Tweeting in December under the name “T33ZY_TAUGHT_M3,” Martin sent a message that read, “Plzz shoot da #mf dat lied 2 u!”

 
It’s unclear who Martin intended the message for, or whether he intended it to be taken literally. 
The photo Martin chose to represent himself on Twitter as “T33ZY_TAUGHT_M3″ depicts him in a black Polo cap, looking into the camera and extending his middle finger. The photo’s file name on Twitter’s server indicates that it was taken on the afternoon of June 17, 2010. 
At least one website issued a retraction this week after mistakenly linking Martin to a middle-finger-salute image on a Facebook account corresponding to a Georgia teenager who shares Martin’s name. This image, however, was uploaded to Twitter by the teen himself. 
On Tuesday TheDC published 152 pages of Martin’s Twitter activity that were retrieved using the social analytics product PeopleBrowsr.
Additional searches via the same website yielded the Twitter handle “T33ZY TAUGHT M3,” whose activity spanned just one month and ended shortly before Martin began tweeting as “NO_LIMIT_NIGGA.” His Twitter activity under that newer screen name began with the tweet: “NEW NAME, NEW BACKGROUND, NEW TWEETCON, I MAKE CHANGS B4 NEW YEARS!” 

Although The Daily Caller has not confirmed with Martin’s family that the earlier Twitter handle belonged to the 17-year-old, there is significant evidence for the conclusion. 
A basic Google search for “@T33ZY_TAUGHT_M3″ on Wednesday indicated that corresponds to a defunct Twitter account once used by someone named “Tray.” The same name, entered into the Google Images search engine, generated the photo of Martin flipping off the camera. 
Upper-arm tattoos visible in that photo match those depicted in the Trayvon Martin’s MySpace page, which TheDC has also identified. That account includes numerous features, including photos of family members, indicating that it belonged to the slain teen. 
_Update #1: By noon EDT Thursday, a new Twitter account appeared using the handle “T33ZY_TAUGHT_M3.” It features a photo lifted from this article, complete with The Daily Caller’s logo. It’s unclear who has control of the account, but it’s likely that the name became available when Martin switched his handle to “NO_LIMIT_NIGGA” in December. Twitter did not immediately reply to a request for comment._ 
_Update #2, Thursday, 5:25 p.m. EDT: The Daily Caller has received a tip that the image above, showing Martin with his middle finger extended, also exists in a different form without the hand in the foreground. It’s likely that the two images were successive photos shot from the same camera at roughly the same time. It’s also remotely possible, but less likely, that Martin himself added the hand before posting the image to his Twitter account in 2011. In any event, the version of the image with the hand is the one that Martin used when his Twitter handle was “T33ZY_TAUGHT_M3.” That image, with the hand, was archived in 2011 both by Twitter and by PeopleBrowsr, the social analytics website whose database was the source for the material described in this article._  
*Update #3:*_ As of 6 p.m. EDT, the new account described in Update #1 (above) was no longer available on Twitter._

----------


## guyinthailand

> NBC committed a fraud. Censorship could not have prevented that.
> Martin was falsely portrayed as a gangsta, wrong facebook account. That was withdrawn.
> Unless you've got some other info.
> Zimmerman was repeatedly shown as a plump smiling chap in a shirt and tie mostly, as well as his mug shot.
> Totally different from his image in the arrest videos and the court appearance one



You've got it backwards, Ent.  Martin was shown as a young innocent kid from a years-old picture when in fact he was a tall dude and went by the name 'no limit nigga' and texted a friend "Shoot da Mf*#ker dat lied 2 U!" while Zimmerman was repeatedly shown as the mugshot from years ago, rather than his smiling self.  Showing these two guys in this way is no different than what NBC did when it doctored the tape to make it seem as if Zimmerman was a racist.

----------


## ENT

All the tweets etc are unconfirmed by Twitter and Martin's parents.
So many facebook, twitters and whatever accounts all purporting to be Martins, some before he died and some after he died leads me to think it's all part of a smear campaign, just a desperate attempt to take the flack off Zimmerman.

The tattoo picks don't show they're Martins, there's even one on a wrist, supposedly his mother's name and another account says it's his girl friend's mother's name. The wrist is on is not that of a 17 year old boy though, it's an wrinkly old man's wrist.

Anyway, big deal if he's got tats and gold teeth and wears baggy pants and a hoody, that's bloody normal for kids these days.
So's smoking some weed.

Get off your racist rants you two. ^ and ^^. Pair of idiots.

----------


## ENT

*New Judge appointed in time for Zimmerman's  bond hearing tomorrow.*

Recksiedler was none too happy about it all either, as she says that she "found the individual reasons "legally insufficient" but nevertheless removed herself from the case because of "the cumulative effect of the events and the totality of the circumstances."

Seminole County Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester Jr. will replace Circuit Judge Jessica Recksiedler, who recused herself from the case Wednesday after defense attorney Mark O'Mara raised conflict of interest questions last week.

The defense lawyer's exact reasons in asking for the judge's disqualification remain unknown to the public — the court file has been sealed by court order.

Another judge,* John D. Galluzo, could not be appointed* because of his own potential conflict of interest:* O'Mara has been his business partner.* Instead, Lester was appointed.

Chief Judge Alan Dickey, who appointed Lester, said in a statement: "Even though Judge Recksiedler had to grant the motion for disqualification in this case, she is very capable of presiding over this or any other criminal case and I have complete confidence in Judge Lester as well."
week.New judge will preside over George Zimmerman case - Tampa Bay Times

It'r a small world in the legal profession!
Apparently *Mark O'Mara is godfather to Judge J.D. Galluzo's son.*, let alone being his business partner.

----------


## Thaihome

> All the tweets etc are unconfirmed by Twitter and Martin's parents.
> So many facebook, twitters and whatever accounts all purporting to be Martins, some before he died and some after he died leads me to think it's all part of a smear campaign, just a desperate attempt to take the flack off Zimmerman.
> 
> The tattoo picks don't show they're Martins, there's even one on a wrist, supposedly his mother's name and another account says it's his girl friend's mother's name. The wrist is on is not that of a 17 year old boy though, it's an wrinkly old man's wrist.
> 
> Anyway, big deal if he's got tats and gold teeth and wears baggy pants and a hoody, that's bloody normal for kids these days.
> So's smoking some weed.
> 
> Get off your racist rants you two. ^ and ^^. Pair of idiots.


 
Explain how correcting the portrayal from a innocent looking 14 year old to current 17 year wannbe gangsta is racist? 

I have made no comment anywhere near that Trayvon deserved to die because of how he choose to look or even behave. 

My comments have only been how this has been presented in media. Something that you have defended.
TH

----------


## ENT

I certainly _haven't_ defended the way either Marti or Zimmerman have been presented by  the media.
The media have a role to play in society and by and large try to present some reasonable reporting.
There's no doubt at all that the lies and truths game called the press is often a total circus and a sham.

Your referencing Martin by innuendo as a potential criminal, is the same game that the media that you disparage play.

Anyway, who accused you of saying that Martin deserved to die?
That's an odd thing to say.

----------


## attaboy

> Originally Posted by attaboy
> 
> Everything in this affidavit is consistent with a defense of self-defense
> 
> 
> Hardly requires a Dershowitz to nut out the fact that will be the likely defence case.


Except that the affidavit Dershowitz is addressing is the one submitted by the prosecutor.  Dershowitz is saying the prosecutor while attempting to indict Zimmermann has actually outlined a self-defense case normally presented by a defense attorney.

No one wants any part of this case because it is weak.  If it weren't weak we'd see more from the prosecutor.  The prosecutor is dumping the responsibility for a dismissal onto the judge who will look at the evidence and declare it insufficient.  Only the present judge has an out and she has taken it.  She has recused herself. 

No one wants anywhere near this because they will be blamed for not satisfying the call for justice.

----------


## Camel Toe

I don't think a guy giving the finger, or one with tattoos, or one who has chosen an aggressive nic will make or break or even influence a case.  Americans are used to all that rapper-idol shit.  Since the witness testimonials seem a bit unclear the case's strong points will be  . . what?  Did Zimmer act in self defense?  What's the criteria there .. who was the better wrestler?  I think about the only piece of this that is poisonous is that the police asked him to back off and he didn't.  I don't know Florida law but every state I know of says there's nothing you can say to a person that gives them the right to assault you. So for some reason Zimmer went after him.  If he was inspired my something verbal he loses.

----------


## attaboy

> Martin was falsely portrayed as a gangsta, wrong facebook account. That was withdrawn.
> Unless you've got some other info.





> All the tweets etc are unconfirmed by Twitter and Martin's parents.
> So many facebook, twitters and whatever accounts all purporting to be Martins, some before he died and some after he died leads me to think it's all part of a smear campaign, just a desperate attempt to take the flack off Zimmerman.
> 
> Get off your racist rants you two. ^ and ^^. Pair of idiots.






> SANFORD, Fla. (AP/The Blaze)  Womens jewelry and a watch found in  Trayvon Martins school backpack last fall could not be tied to any  reported thefts, the Miami-Dade Police Department said Tuesday.
> 
> 
>  The Miami Herald in its Tuesday editions reported that it had  obtained a Miami-Dade Schools Police Department report that showed the  slain teenager was suspended in October for writing obscene graffiti on a  door at his high school. During a search of his backpack, the report  said, campus security officers found 12 pieces of womens jewelry, a  watch and a screwdriver that they felt could be used as a burglary tool.
> 
> *The Herald reported that when campus security confronted Martin with the  jewelry, he told them that a friend had given it to him, but he  wouldnt give a name.* The report said the jewelry was confiscated and a  photo of it was sent to Miami-Dade Police burglary detectives.  Miami-Dade school officials declined Tuesday to confirm the report when  contacted by The Associated Press, citing federal privacy laws regarding  students.
> 
> Martin had previously been suspended for excessive absences and  tardiness and, at the time of his death, was serving a 10-day suspension  after school officials found an empty plastic bag with marijuana traces  in his backpack.
> 
> ...


The parent's lawyer is correct Trayvon's past offenses are not admissible.  But at the same time he is hardly the 12 year old kid in the photograph shown in the media to influence people's opinion.  He's hardly a kid whose preoccupation at this stage in his life is Skittles and iced tea. He very well could have been dealing marijuana and accepting stolen property as payment.

If the media are going to use a pic of Trayvon as a 12 year old kid and use a pic of Zimmermann's mug shot from a 2005 domestic violence case (where both Zimmermann and the woman filed a petition against one another), then why not divulge that Trayvon is not a 12 year old innocent?  Zimmermannn has the right to defend himself.

----------


## attaboy

I guess the forensics will help to determine how weak the case is; angle of bullet entry for example.  His knuckles could be examined for bruises and abrasions.  Has he been exhumed? 

If Trayvon's clothing were not taken as evidence they can't be tested for powder burns at this time. 




> So for some reason Zimmer went after him.


Except that Zimmermann says he broke off the pursuit.  That's why it's important to know which pathway was Trayvon's body found near, the one leading to Zimmermann's vehicle or the one leading to Trayvon's residence? If Trayvon's body was found on the path that splits off and leads to his residence then Zimmermann's story doesn't wash that he was no longer pursuing Trayvon. If Trayvon's body was found on the path that leads from Zimmermann's vehicle to a street outside the community then Zimmermann's story could be true.

----------


## ENT

> this is a supposed map with a supposed key to sites:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Key:*
>  A – The Clubhouse for Retreat at Twin Lakes.
> B – Community mailboxes.
> C – Where George Zimmerman parked his truck.
> ...


According to this map the fight was on the path leding down to where Martin was staying.

Link to pics of Trayvon Martin 9 days before he died.

http://globalgrind.com/news/Trayvon-...re-Death-Photo

----------


## sabang

A quick reminder of the skewed priorities of the US media in particular, and the western media in general.


Around 5.20 am (Thai time) I did a Google News search "Trayvon Martin", asking for results in the last 24 hours only:-
_



			
				About 184,000 results (0.37 seconds)
			
		

_

Followed by a Google News search "Robert Bales", asking for results in the last 24 hours only:-
_



			
				About 1,950 results (0.33 seconds)
			
		

_

Bales stands charged with slaughtering 17 Afghani civilians, on March 11 2012. The slaying of 17 yo Trayvon Martin occurred Feb 26 2012. 

Interesting.  :deadhorsebig:

----------


## attaboy

^^An internet map needs to be accompanied with a police report and an ambulance report.

----------


## attaboy

The Martin case wouldn't have so many hits if it weren't for the media fueling the flames with the doctored NBC audio tape and with the New York Times struggling to call Zimmermann white. Trolling the image of Zimmermann being your typical white racist gains interest from people who enjoy that stereotyping and it also generates pushback from people who dont appreciate the white racist stereotype being raised.  The media in this case gained interest from many angles from its trolling of the public. Butterfly or Noodles could not have trolled any better than NBC and the NYTs has.


  They cant troll the same for the Bales story.  People may understand why or how Bales cracked, they may be empathetic but they dont condone it.  Only a tiny minority would say Bales did nothing wrong.  There arent even enough of them to stir a controversy.  There arent issues for the media to exploit that will generate sides or camps for the media to then provoke like in the Trayvon case.


  They have clearly trolled and inflamed the Trayvon story.  Its shameful.

----------


## robuzo

Paul Theroux has an interesting take on the racial aspects of the case and attitudes toward police. I was stopped by a cop when I was in Florida with my son last November, a cop even more abusive and prone to screaming obscenities than the one Theroux describes. The odd thing was I didn't get a ticket, probably because another cop showed up and heard the first cop screaming at me (with my five-year-old next to me), took him aside and sent us on our way. 
If I Had a Son, He
‘The implication of looks equating to innocence (or guilt) is illogical and emotive and divisive, and indeed racially charged.’

----------


## Camel Toe

Yeah, the cops are tuff wherever the folks are tuff .. look at LA.

Whatever the outcome it'll be old news quickly.  Odd, during the times of Rodney King, OJ and the rest you always have some weird feeling the story will never die.  Seems Tiger Woods is still in the news more often than any of the murderous bastards people have chosen to forget, or maybe it's more like the media have chosen to forget.

----------


## S Landreth

Zimmerman granted bail after wife claims no prior violence: Zimmerman granted bail after wife claims no prior violence | The Raw Story

Zimmermans bail set at 150k, says in court hes sorry for death of Trayvon Martin: Zimmerman&#x2019;s bail set at 150k, says in court he&#x2019;s sorry for death of Trayvon Martin - Florida - MiamiHerald.com

SANFORD -- -- George Zimmernman will be eligible for release from jail on $150,000 bail and a host of conditions including electronic monitoring, Seminole County Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester announced Friday.

It was unclear when Zimmerman, the volunteer watch captain accused of second-degree murder in the shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, would actually be released, assuming he can meet the conditions. State prosecutors had asked for bail to be set at $1 million.

Zimmerman also unexpectedly took the stand in court Friday during his bond hearing, causing gasps in the courtroom, and told Trayvons parents he is sorry for their loss. He spoke, almost two hours into the hearing in Sanford, telling the court that his statement was for the mother and the father.

I wanted to say I am sorry for the loss of your son. I did not know how old he was. I thought he was a little bit younger than I am. And I did not know if he was armed or not.

Trayvons parents, Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin, were in court today. Zimmermans family members, including his father, mother and wife testified by phone, apparently fearful for their safety.

His attorney, Mark OMara, successfully argued for bond for Zimmerman, who has spent the past nine days as an inmate in Seminole Countys John E. Polk Correctional Facility. OMara emphasized that Zimmerman has ties to the area.

He faces a possible life sentence. Assistant State Attorney Bernardo de la Rionda, who handled the hearing for Special Prosecutor Angela Corey, contended in court that Trayvon had been minding his own business and was not commiting a crime.

In a television interview Thursday, OMara said several safe locations have been secured for Zimmerman if he is released.

On Friday, ABC News also published what it said was an exclusive photo taken three minutes after Zimmerman shot Trayvon, showing the back of Zimmermans head with blood trickling down. Zimmerman has claimed self-defense in the case.

Sanford, which for weeks has worked to keep calm in a racially volatile case, is prepared for Zimmermans potential release, according to City Manager Norton Bonaparte Jr., though he declined to offer any details. He said the city is equally prepared for the wave of media and others expected to be in Sanford for the bond hearing along with a Saturday rally in support of Zimmerman led by controversial Pastor Terry Jones. The church leader made headlines when he threatened to, and later burned a Quran.

Zimmerman, 28, fatally shot the Miami Gardens teenager in a gated townhouse community on Feb. 26. Trayvon, who was on a 10-day suspension from his Miami-Dade high school, was spending time with his father and the fathers girlfriend at her home at the time of the shooting.

As Trayvon walked back to the home from a convenience store, Zimmerman spotted him. He told police the teen look suspicious and followed him. Minutes later, they had a physical altercation and Zimmerman shot Trayvon. Zimmerman was not initially charged by Sanford police, who cited the states Stand Your Ground law.

Story will be updated in the link above

----------


## guyinthailand

> On Friday, ABC News also published what it said was an exclusive photo taken three minutes after Zimmerman shot Trayvon, showing the back of Zimmerman’s head with blood trickling down. Zimmerman has claimed self-defense in the case.


Interesting.  Can someone post this photo?

----------


## guyinthailand

> Zimmerman also unexpectedly took the stand in court Friday during his bond hearing, causing gasps in the courtroom, and told Trayvons parents he is sorry for their loss. He spoke, almost two hours into the hearing in Sanford, telling the court that his statement was for the mother and the father.
> 
> *I wanted to say I am sorry for the loss of your son. I did not know how old he was. I thought he was a little bit younger than I am. And I did not know if he was armed or not.*
> 
> Trayvons parents, Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin, were in court today. Zimmermans family members, including his father, mother and wife testified by phone, apparently fearful for their safety.


Also interesting

----------


## S Landreth

> Originally Posted by S Landreth
> 
> 
> On Friday, ABC News also published what it said was an exclusive photo taken three minutes after Zimmerman shot Trayvon, showing the back of Zimmermans head with blood trickling down. Zimmerman has claimed self-defense in the case.
> 
> 
> Interesting.  Can someone post this photo?





link: George Zimmerman Tells Trayvon Martin's Parents 'I Am Sorry' - ABC News

----------


## guyinthailand

Wonder if that is blood continuing to flow AFTER being treated by the paramedics who are said to have treated him.

----------


## guyinthailand

> (see link under picture of bleeding head above)


The link S Landreth post with bloody head has an ABC video worth watching.
You have to go to S Landreth's post with the picture of Zimmerman's bleeding head above and click on the link under the picture to see the ABC video.  I tried copying and pasting it again but it wouldn't work.

----------


## Hampsha

> 



Looking back at the clothes this guy was wearing that night, I would probably have felt threatened by him. I know a lot of people complained about the hoodie but this guy's garb doesn't say security guard to me. If you walked onto his property and he came out the front door you would know its his land but if this guy were to follow you, would you really think he had some role as a security person? I would feel as threatened by him as much as anyone in a hoodie. JMHO.

----------


## ENT

Zimmerman's dad said his son had two _vertical gashes_ to the back of his head.
The latest pic of Zimmerman's head wounds show a_ lateral_ cut on the left of the back his head, with blood running _down_ from it.
This indicates that he was_ upright_, not laying down, when that cut occurred.

If he was laying down with his head on the ground, the blood from the wounds wound not have run down his head.
The blood would have spread around left and right and around the wound before running down when upright.

The cut on the left looks like a clean cut _across_ the back of his head, caused while his head was in an upright position.

That's my opinion.    :mid:

----------


## robuzo

More and more Zimmerman is looking like a hapless dimwit floundering his way through life with dreams of a career in law enforcement (like his father), just a dimwit who wanted to be seen as the defender of the neighborhood. Without that gun would he have been so bold? Wouldn't be surprised at all if Zimmerman were having trouble sleeping, not just because of what he  is in for but also what he has done. It's possible that in this case a particularly stupid law reflective of an idiotic state of mind all too common in the US has been the cause of one life ended and another ruined, not to mention plenty of heartbreak on both sides.

As Bogart as Marlowe says in The Big Sleep, "My, my, my! Such a lot of guns around town and so few brains! You know, you're the second guy I've met today that seems to think a gat in the hand means the world by the tail. "

----------


## ENT

The blood from the wounds is all running _downwards_ and _then_ to the left, as if his head was first upright when cut, then turned to the right, still upright afterwards, allowing the blood flow to continue _downwards and left_, as if his head leaned forward to face downwards and right.

The whole event looks as if it happened while he was facing forward and then downward for the blood to take the course shown.
The picture doesn't support the idea that he was on his back underneath Martin at the time.

----------


## guyinthailand

What really matters is who initiated the violent encounter.  If Zimmerman initiated the violent encounter (and please shut up about him 'following' Martin--that is NOT initiating a violent encounter)--but if Zimmerman initiated the violence, then the blood on his head won't matter, it won't help him, ultimately, in his defense.  The blood could be there, as so many have pointed out, because Martin was defending himself from Zimmerman.

----------


## ENT

The angle and direction of the blood flow shown are not consistent with Zimmerman's claim that he was on his back on the ground while Martin was on top of him smashing his head into the concrete footpath.

The blood flow shows that the reverse is more likely.

The photograph shows the result 3 minutes after he shot Martin.

So the wounds were inflicted almost immediately before the shooting, during or after Martin was heard yelling for help.

They were not inflicted during a one minute long bashing.

----------


## Thaihome

> The angle and direction of the blood flow shown are not consistent with Zimmerman's claim that he was on his back on the ground while Martin was on top of him smashing his head into the concrete footpath.
> 
> The blood flow shows that the reverse is more likely.
> 
> The photograph shows the result 3 minutes after he shot Martin.
> 
> So the wounds were inflicted almost immediately before the shooting, during or after Martin was heard yelling for help.
> 
> They were not inflicted during a one minute long bashing.


 
I believe it is an eyewitness that said Maritn was on top bouncing Zimmermans head on the ground.   
Would probably be best to wait for such testimony in court rather than idle speculation and supposition based on photo on how blood flows from cut.
Same would go about who was calling for help.  Nothing has been proven on that either (though you have stated it as if was a fact).

TH

----------


## ENT

No eyewitness saw Martin bouncing Zimmerman's head on the ground.
Zimmerman's father claimed that.

One eyewitness said he saw a guy with a red jacket on the ground and another guy on top of him.

Someone else took a picture reputedly of the cuts on Zimmerman's head.

*Another eyewitness gave this account*.

The anonymous man said he reported to police details of what he saw on the evening of 26 February, which included watching the gunman *walking away from the fight apparently uninjured.*

*The eyewitness says he saw no blood and that the entire confrontation took place only on grass.*

"I saw two men on the ground, one on top of the other. I felt they were scuffling and *I heard gunshots which to me were more like pops,*" he said in an interview broadcast on CNN's Anderson Cooper 360, his voice disguised to protect his identity.

*"I don't know if was an echo but it definitely made more than one pop.*
*"After the larger man got off* there was a boy, obviously now dead, on the ground facing down.

"It was dark. I can't say I watched him get up, but in a couple of seconds or so he was walking towards where I was watching and I could see him a little bit clearer. It was a Hispanic man.* He didn't appear hurt or anything else.* He just kind of seemed very worried with *his hand up to his forehead."*

The man said that before opening his window and looking out, *he had heard angry voices outside*. "There was a loud, predominant voice. I couldn't hear the words but this is not a regular conversation," he said. "This is someone aggressively yelling at someone."

He said *there was a lull but the argument resumed* and that was when he decided to see what was going on.

"I'm thinking something horrible is happening. *I heard the yell for help and another excruciating kind of a yell,* it didn't even sound like a yell, it sounded so painful," he said.

More:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...erman-uninjure.

*Three different versions of what occurred* 

There are several witness reports, we haven't heard them all yet.

----------


## ENT

A taped interview of another witness who states that the scuffle was on the grass, about four feet away from the footpath.

The witness also tells of the lead police investigator's attitude to collecting further information, and their attitude to witnesses.

The police didn't even want the witness to show them where the scuffle took place.

The whole of Zimmerman's story is starting to look like a crock of shit.
Eyewitness to the Trayvon Martin shooting speaks out – Anderson Cooper 360 - CNN.com Blogs

----------


## koman

Things are looking up. Now we have a whole fucking army of witnesses. Half of Florida seems to have been hiding in the bushes watching this whole thing unfold.

Can we expect one to attest that Zimmerman got down and banged the back of his head on the pavemnt, after going to great lengths to shoot Martin down in cold blood, for no apparent reason. I'm sure that what most people would do right after shooting somebody.

We now see a pretty clear photo showing all that blood and stuff....which many of our contributers were assuring us never existed because it did not appear in a 2 second video clip shot at the police station an hour after the shooting......but wait.....the the blood flow is going in the wrong direction....maybe he remained standing and perhaps banged his head against a brick wall.....

We still have to explain the grass stains on the back of Zimmer's clothes, which would likely be caused by him laying on his back......but I'm sure we can get around a silly thing like that.

The trump card apparently is that Zimmerman's various statements show some minor "inconsistency" as to exactly what happened. Imagine that......a man who has just gone through what would be a hugely traumatic event for anybody, can't line up every detail in perfect order the first time round......and has to correct something which he may have recalled incorrectly at first. How weird is that? If that does not make him guilty I don't know what the world is coming to.

This trial should be a slam-dunk ..... with the sudden surge of eye witnesses and irefutable forensic input from TD.....makes you wonder if it's even worth wasting time with a jury trial ... Zimmermans lawyers should just throw in the towel... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Thaihome

> A taped interview of another witness who states that the scuffle was on the grass, about four feet away from the footpath.


Actually the witness says is what she saw of the scuffle took place on the grass. At no point does she say she saw the whole thing.





> The witness also tells of the lead police investigator's attitude to collecting further information, and their attitude to witnesses.
> 
> 
> The police didn't even want the witness to show them where the scuffle took place.


No, after explaining to the police where she was standing when she witnessed the event, the police declined to get up and walk over the window.





> The whole of Zimmerman's story is starting to look like a crock of shit.
> Eyewitness to the Trayvon Martin shooting speaks out  Anderson Cooper 360 - CNN.com Blogs


 

Wait for the trial Ent. If you really listen to what she says, that witness actually neither saw or heard anything. 

Maybe that is why they have declined to call her anymore, so she called CNN and told them she saw everything. 

TH

----------


## sabang

I daresay the actual witness testimony being gathered by the defence & prosecution teams is not what you are reading about in the rag media.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  Then there are forensics, and so forth. Not much of interest will happen before the Trial, so I am bemused by the lucrative gravy train that the commercial media (and blogosphere) is still able to milk from this.

Strangely though, I am reading no eyewitness accounts, or survivors accounts from SSGT Bales murder spree, which occurred more recently than the killing of Trayvon Martin. No demonstrations either.

----------


## robuzo

Funny how some of the people who seemed to think the reds deserved to get shot and killed in Bangkok two years ago also seem inclined to think that the black kid in Florida did, too. It's almost as if there is a habit of mind on display. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## ENT

Sure, it'll all come out in the trial, all the witnesses' accounts, the autopsy report on Martin, and the forensic reports on both Martin and Zimmerman.

There will also be the FBI investigation report on what the police department was up to.
The actions of the lead investigator, his close aids, the SA Wolfinger and Zimmerman senior are going to make interesting reading.

It was a cosmetic police investigation from the start, not looking at all the evidence and witness accounts, even going to the length of suppressing them.

No way is Zimmerman telling the truth.
He even contradicted himself in the space of two sentences at his bail hearing, when asked if he had expressed regret over the killing to the police on the night of his arrest.
He wasn't very clear about what went on the night of his arrest either.

Zimmerman's dad was caught out lying at the bail hearing too. He said earlier that Zimmerman had vertical cuts to his head, while the picture showed a horizontal cut to Zimmerman's head as well, all blood running downwards, as it does.
The judge asked him what picture had he seen, to which Zimmerman senior replied that it was the latest one, showing the blood

To cap it all, Zimmerman was seen by at least two witnesses pressing down on Martin's back with his hands, as Martin lay face downward into the ground. The two witnesses called out to him three times before Zimmerman stopped.

He wasn't trying to help Martin. On the contrary.                                                                                                                  The pressing downwards was a sustained pressure, sufficient to limit any heart or lung action.

That definitely made sure Martin was dead. 

Martin wasn't going to testify against him after that.

There's a lot of talk about Martin being some sort of terrifying "gangsta", potentially violent.
No proof to it all.

The only one with a violent past is Zimmerman.
Proven.

----------


## S Landreth

> Sure, it'll all come out in the trial


Another thing that might seem to bit puzzling is the statement Zimmerman made in court yesterday,.

_"I am sorry for the loss of your son. I did not know how old he was. I thought he was a little bit younger than I am. I did not know if he was armed or not," Zimmerman said addressing Martin's family directly._

Yet on the 911 tapes we have heard that Zimmerman told the 911 operator that he looked like he was a teen.

----------


## robuzo

That was a pretty ridiculous, self-serving statement by Zimmerman. One could almost get the idea he was trying to sway prospective jurors. "The loss of your son" is an interesting way of putting it- "shit happens" rather than "I'm sorry for killing your son." "I did not know if he was armed or not" (but I thought I'd follow him anyway, because I was, even though Neighborhood Watch volunteers aren't supposed to be armed and the dispatcher told me not to. . .) By the way, had Zimmerman known Trayvon was a minor, does that mean he wouldn't have shot the boy?

----------


## S Landreth

> It's possible that in this case a particularly stupid law reflective of an idiotic state of mind all too common in the US has been the cause of one life ended and another ruined, not to mention plenty of heartbreak on both sides.
> 
> As Bogart as Marlowe says in The Big Sleep, "My, my, my! Such a lot of guns around town and so few brains! You know, you're the second guy I've met today that seems to think a gat in the hand means the world by the tail. "



Good thing is that Florida is going to look at the Stand your Ground law starting May 1, but with the cast of players involved, I doubt anything will come of it: Gov. Scott names 17-member task force to review Stand Your Ground law | Naked Politics

Gov. Scott names 17-member task force to review Stand Your Ground law

Gov. Rick Scott named 17 members of the state’s new Task Force on Citizen Safety and Protection, announcing that the group will begin looking at Florida’s controversial Stand Your Ground law in two weeks. The first meeting will be May 1.

The group includes four lawmakers—including the representative that sponsored Stand Your Ground in 2005 and one who says he helped write it—and several legal and law enforcement professionals.

“We have tapped a diverse and qualified group to carefully review our laws and our policies,” said Scott, standing next to Lt. Gov. Jennifer Carroll, who will chair the task force. (give us a fuckin' break Scott)

In addition to Rep. Dennis Baxley, R-Ocala, who sponsored the law, Sen. David Simmons, R-Maitland, Sen. Gary Siplin, D-Orlando and Rep. Jason Brodeur, R-Sanford, will serve on the task force.

Looking at the records of those lawmakers and other elected officials involved, there appears to be a pro-Stand-Your-Ground, pro-gun-rights slant among the elected officials involved in the task force.

Consider:

Simmons told the Herald/Times bureau that he helped draft the final language of the Stand Your Ground law as the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, and was Baxley's roommate at the time. 

Siplin was part of the Senate that passed the law unanimously.

Brodeur was not in the Legislature when the bill passed, but he is listed as a member of the American Legislative Exchange Council, which helped spread the law across the nation. He also sponsored a 2011 so called "docs-vs-Glocks" law that prevents doctors from asking patients about gun ownership, with harsh penalties including the loss of medical license for those who don't comply.

House Speaker Dean Cannon, R-Winter Park, Senate President Mike Haridopolos, R-Merritt Island, and Carroll all played a role in choosing the task force members. Each of them co-sponsored and voted for the Stand Your Ground law.

Incoming House Speaker Will Weatherford, R-Wesley Chapel, also was involved in the selection process. He was not in the House for the vote, but is also listed as a member of ALEC.

Carroll said the task force will show her whether her vote in favor of the law was a mistake.

Several Democratic lawmakers who expressed interest in being involved in the task force were not included. Many of them have less gun-friendly voting records than the lawmakers who were selected. Carroll said there was an application process, and only those who applied were considered.

Rick Scott is a dick!

----------


## ENT

True, he did say that.
The more he opens his mouth the deeper he gets in it.

O'Mara didn't like Zimmerman wanting to use the court to speak to Martin's parents, as he knew that the posecutor could wind him up, as he did.

Zimmerman's a wannabe, he'll look for the attention he can get, in a strange way.
he also loses the plot, spits the dummy when blocked, so the trial could be quite dramatic, when it comes up.

Meanwhile, he'll "read his Bible and pray".
Cunning as a shit-house rat, that guy, but dumb.

I reckon between now and the trial date he'll be hard put to hold his neck in.
He could just breach his bail conditions, he's that pig headed.

I don't envy O'Mara's position, but, they're all in the same club, Catholics and law connections will be used to make it as easy as possible for Zimmerman.
Which is how he got bail in the first place.

----------


## robuzo

^^Scott is a criminal. No two ways about it.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> The angle and direction of the blood flow BlahBlaBlahBlah
> 
> The blood flow shows *BlahBlaBlahBlah*
> 
> The photograph shows *BlahBlaBlahBlah*
> 
> ...


Ent is freaking out because,* remember, it was Ent who went on and on and on about Zimmerman's "minor injuries" for post after post.* And now he's frantically trying to show how, now, well, the injuries may not look or be minor, but, er, uh...well, blood flow this way that way, blahblahblah

Now that there seems to have been a fight with Zimmerman on the receiving end of it, and the injuries don't seem 'minor' Ent is freaking out that he may not be able to hang Zimmerman on the 'ol tree over yonder.

Ent will deny it till the cows come home but it's plain to me he's been wanting to hang Zimmerman from day one.  
*
Remember your post saying Zimmerman made "false claims",* Ent?  Remember that?  Yeah, you never could back that up, but you were slinging shit just to get a conviction.

I suggest you take what Detective Columbo--er, I mean Ent--that you take anything our 'detective' says with a half kilo of salt.

----------


## guyinthailand

> We still have to explain the grass stains on the back of Zimmer's clothes, which would likely be caused by him laying on his back......but I'm sure we can get around a silly thing like that.
> 
> The trump card apparently is that Zimmerman's various statements show some minor "inconsistency" as to exactly what happened. Imagine that......a man who has just gone through what would be a hugely traumatic event for anybody, can't line up every detail in perfect order the first time round......and has to correct something which he may have recalled incorrectly at first. How weird is that? If that does not make him guilty I don't know what the world is coming to.
> 
> This trial should be a slam-dunk ..... with the sudden surge of eye witnesses and irefutable forensic input from TD.....makes you wonder if it's even worth wasting time with a jury trial ... Zimmermans lawyers should just throw in the towel...


Can't wait to see what Ent has to say about your good take on it.

----------


## guyinthailand

> The only one with a violent past is Zimmerman.
> Proven.



Ent exaggerating and lying yet again.  He sows confusion like this all over Teakdoor and then posters spend post after post cleaning up his messes.

Both Zimmerman and his wife took out restraining orders on each other years ago. Wow.  Husband and wife having marital difficulties!  Imagine that!  In Ent's eyes, makes him violent.

And, oh, wait, as a 20 year old kid drunk in a bar, Zimmerman scuffles with a police officer.  Wow.  Scuffles.  Yeah, Ent, he's SOOOOO violent.  String him up!

----------


## guyinthailand

> No eyewitness saw Martin bouncing Zimmerman's head on the ground.



In Detective Ent's eyes, Zimmerman bounced his own head on the ground!

----------


## guyinthailand

> The whole of Zimmerman's story is starting to look like a crock of shit.


Ent is going to have eat his words once again.  Just wait

----------


## attaboy

> More and more Zimmerman is looking like a hapless dimwit floundering his way through life with dreams of a career in law enforcement (like his father), just a dimwit who wanted to be seen as the defender of the neighborhood.


A wannabe cop that a police academy would be wary of because they could sense he was the type that would wind up shooting somebody while still in the academy.

Is there any proof about the broken nose? If he gets caught in any lie it will allow the jury to doubt anything else he testifies to and that is how he could get convicted. Barring any obvious lie a self defense plea is looking good.

----------


## guyinthailand

Doubtful Zimmerman and his family lied about the broken nose.  His dad a judge who is aware of the effect of a lie on a jury.

But, I'll repeat it here: even if Zimmerman had gashes on his head and a broken nose, it won't matter IF it is shown that Zimmerman initiated the violent confrontation and therefore wasn't defending himself.  If he did this then he wrongfully took a life.

----------


## ENT

[QUOTE=guyinthailand;2081644]


> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> The angle and direction of the blood flow BlahBlaBlahBlah
> 
> The blood flow shows *BlahBlaBlahBlah*
> 
> The photograph shows *BlahBlaBlahBlah*
> 
> ...


The only one who's freaking out is you!

Six posts in a row freaking out about what _you think_ I said!

Oh dear!

Your "blah blah blah" comments only show how you're losing the plot as the blood rushes to your head.
Relax, or your high blood pressure will get the better of you.

Yup, pictures of Zimmerman's head and reports so far indicate superficial injuries only.

The false claims have been noted by several members and the prosecution, all recorded.

The prosecution have all the time in the world to analyse every scrap of information available, and mark my words, they have a very strong case against Zimmerman.
How they will use their evidence in court is entirely up to them.

Zimmerman though, can not gain any more information to assist his case.

Meanwhile, the gun lobby will try to reform the 'Stand your ground" law to cast a better light on the situation, but I think that any changes in that law will not be used retrospectively in this case.

Tough shit, mate.

----------


## guyinthailand

Typical Ent reply.  

Excuse me, I mean "Mr-Ent-Who-said-Zimmerman-Made-False-Claims-and-Who-Had-Only-Minor-Injuries" and who also said getting your head slammed in the ground and nose broken is no big deal and that it was clear Zimmerman initiated the violence because he was "Following" Martin.

Yeah, 'following' equals 'initiating violence' in the brilliant legal mind of Ent.

Got any more pearls for us, Ent?

----------


## guyinthailand

> Yup, pictures of Zimmerman's head and reports so far indicate superficial injuries only.


What 'reports', Ent?  *Cite one*.

Hey, Ent, the guy you're trying to hang--you know, Zimmerman--looks like he was getting pounded by your sweet angel of a human being, Martin.  

But thanks for enlightening us on the nature and nuances of head trauma.  Always good to hear from someone who knows SO much about what happens when the skull is smashed into the ground over and over. 

Detective Doctor Ent: has amazing powers and can look at a bloody head and tell us with certainty that the wounds inflicted were....nice wounds...wounds from a friendly soul who just wanted to...'touch' Zimmerman with love.

----------


## sabang

Eyewitness and medical reports at the actual, y'know, Trial  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): , will show the true extent of Zim's injuries- broken nose or not, trauma injuries to cranium etc.

Somehow I do not think that evidence from, shall we say, 'motivated' armchair experts on the Internet will be ruled as admissable.  ::chitown::

----------


## guyinthailand

And it doesn't even matter if the injuries were 'serious' or not.  The point is Martin was pounding Zimmerman's head and his nose.

The question is: was Martin doing it in self-defense against an enraged, maniacal Zimmerman who was intent on 'murdering' Martin?   Or did the self-proclaimed tough 'gangsta' Martin attack Zimmerman first?

----------


## ENT

> Eyewitness and medical reports at the actual, y'know, Trial , will show the true extent of Zim's injuries- broken nose or not, trauma injuries to cranium etc.
> 
> Somehow I do not think that evidence from, shall we say, 'motivated' armchair experts on the Internet will be ruled as admissable.


Yup, it'll all come out in the trial, that's for sure.
Both prosecution and defence are entitled to access any evidence in the case.

It doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks about it.

My opinion is simply that, an opinion drawn from available information.
I'll stand by that, so far.
If new information arrives that I can speculate on, I'll do that.
If I see fit to change my opinion, I'll do that too.

So far, in my opinion, Zimmerman's account of events, as reported by him and his supporters, doesn't seem credible as it conflicts with other recorded accounts from multiple sources.

All the available pics of Zimmermann's head wounds are not consistent with his claim of having his head pounded into the concrete side walk while lying on his back.

At least three witnesses reported that the fight was happening on the grass, and that Zimmerman kept pressing Martin face down down with his hands after shooting him.

That was a really dumb thing to do with people watching him.

----------


## leemo

[QUOTE=ENT;2082111]


> So far, in my opinion, Zimmerman's account of events, as reported by him and his supporters, doesn't seem credible as it conflicts with other recorded accounts from multiple sources.
> 
> All the available pics of Zimmermann's head wounds are not consistent with his claim of having his head pounded into the concrete side walk while lying on his back.


Doesn't matter if Zimmerman's head wounds were consistent with his story, Corey still needs to prove malevolent intent. As others have said we don't know the facts and can only speculate, but keep in mind that the police released him early on despite owning a body with a hole in it, which fairly supposes they had reason to believe his account of events. Or of course they are racists, which fits the preferred narrative in some quarters.

But onto pure politics where this incident belongs, and the circus to distract 
a bankrupt and divided nation from the criminal folly of its leaders; the race card is always good for that, and so this Hispanic has been assigned to the White team, though he would be considered a Black if it was a White that had shot him. Does that sound bizarre? Sure it is, but no more bizarre than dozens of other Kafkaesque narratives any of which makes this one seem perfectly logical.

And no surprise that Corey becomes a made woman after the trial regardless of the outcome. A conviction gives her glory and him a lynching as the honkeys breathe a sigh of relief, and if as likely he's acquitted she'll claim jury bias and cities start burning, which will please our Sharptons and Jacksons.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Unless there is an eyewitness to the whole sequence of events, the chances are that he'll get off. The prosecution have to prove their case "beyond reasonable doubt", and that won't be that difficult unless it's an all black jury.

----------


## ENT

There's a rack of evidence so far to show malevolent intent, if you read all the reports carefully.

The very act of pressing down on Martin's body by Zimmerman after shooting him ensured Martin's death without a doubt.

That act in itself shows malevolent intent.

----------


## robuzo

> Unless there is an eyewitness to the whole sequence of events, the chances are that he'll get off. The prosecution have to prove their case "beyond reasonable doubt", and that won't be that difficult unless it's an all black jury.


Grounds for self-defense are very minimal as the law stands in Florida. Check out some of the precedent cases. Some are even more egregious than this, in terms of chasing after people and then killing them in "self-defense," even involving the killer using more than one weapon or a knife when not being restrained in any way. Unless his lawyers allow him to slip up and say something incriminating he'll skate. He may face civil suits.

----------


## ENT

His lawyers can't stop him from flapping his lip.
He's already contradicted himself at the bail hearing.

----------


## S Landreth

> Unless his lawyers allow him to slip up and say something incriminating he'll skate.


Yeah I don't think he'll see a day in jail besides the little stint he did waiting for his bond hearing.




> He may face civil suits.


His wife might divorce him (just to save all/any assets he might have) so he might get away with the monetary problems a civil suit might bring him.

Isn't Florida wonderful.

----------


## ENT

He could walk based on a technicality, no doubt.

On the other hand, the defence are being very tight lipped about what evidence they have to convict him.

Note that the prosecution are basing their case on _all_ the events leading up to the point of his initial arrest that night.

They're not simply concentrating on a few selected minutes.

----------


## robuzo

> Isn't Florida wonderful.


That's the main thing for me- I want to see people discouraged from taking the law into their own hands. I don't think Zimmerman is a particular menace, but rather a fool emboldened by some bizarre notion of frontier justice people get from watching too much teevee. Self-defense is one thing, looking for trouble is another. There have been way too many cases of people getting cut loose after killing someone based on this asinine "shoot first" law. It's a shame it seems to take a kid getting killed for people to realize that.

----------


## guyinthailand

> At least three witnesses reported that the fight was happening on the grass, and that Zimmerman kept pressing Martin face down down with his hands after shooting him.
> 
> That was a really dumb thing to do with people watching him.


No, it wasn't a dumb thing to do if you are fighting for your life, if you assailant is trying to grab your gun and shoot you with it (Zimmerman's gun was found with a full clip and an empty chamber strongly suggesting gun was being grabbed as it was being fired).

What is dumb, are your conclusions and many of your posts.

----------


## guyinthailand

> There's a rack of evidence so far to show malevolent intent, if you read all the reports carefully.
> 
> The very act of pressing down on Martin's body by Zimmerman after shooting him ensured Martin's death without a doubt.
> 
> That act in itself shows malevolent intent.


Ent thinks he has super powers and can discern 'malevolent intent'.    Anyone would press down on an attacker to stop an attack.  Zimmerman could very well have been trying to defend himself against an enraged Martin who could have already been shot by then but still again repeatedly trying to grab Zimmerman's gun.  As explained earlier, Zimmerman's gun was probably grabbed by Martin.

Zimmerman was just defending himself, they will argue.

----------


## ENT

You don't need superpowers to know if someone is being malicious.
Your imagination is running riot trying to make excuses for Zimmerman's actions.
Then again, I don't expect much intelligence to come from your hysterical rants on the topic.

                                                                                                                                                                                   They can argue as much as they like, but the act of Zimmerman pressing down on Martin who was lying immobile on the ground, shot, was not CPR.
It was the exact opposite.

It was a deliberate act of suppression on a defenceless victim of a gunshot wound.
That kind of pressure restricts the heart and lungs' normal function, and in a person shot in the upper chest would cause rapid expulsion of blood from the wound in his chest.
If Martin was not already dead, that act by Zimmerman ensured that Martin would die.

It remains to be seen from the autopsy report if either the gunshot alone, or a combination of gunshot and the pressure finally killed Martin.

----------


## robuzo

Article from WaPo about Flawda's ridiculous law, which apparently was inspired by fears of terrorists and looters (maybe not in that order  :Confused: ). Whatever you do, don't knock on the wrong door:
&lsquo;Stand Your Ground&rsquo; laws coincide with jump in justifiable-homicide cases - The Washington Post
Billy Kuch was a troubled kid. As an adolescent, he had bipolar disorder diagnosed and hed been arrested a couple of times for driving under the influence. He drank too much, and he knew it. So when he was out at a party that August night on Golden Eagle Drive near the intersection of Gun Smoke Drive, he decided he was too blitzed to drive home. He left the party to lock his keys inside his car so he couldnt get behind the wheel later that night. Kuch, then 23, stumbled back toward the party but forgot which beige stucco house was hosting the bash. 

He knocked on the wrong door, the one belonging to Gregory Stewart, a 32-year-old homeowner who did not appreciate having his wife and baby disturbed by a drunk kid after 4 in the morning. Kuch went away and texted his sister that he was totally confused about what was going on. Then Kuch found what he thought was the party house and tried the door. But hed landed at Stewarts place, again.

This time, after Kuch turned the doorknob, Stewart told his wife to call 911. Then he grabbed his Smith & Wesson semiautomatic and went into his front yard. Stewart said he kept asking Kuch to leave, but Kuch, thinking the guys at the party were playing a joke on him, stayed. Dont make me shoot you, warned the 6-foot-1 Stewart, according to police records. I dont want to shoot you. Kuch, who stands 5-foot-9, raised his hands, asked for a light and lurched toward the homeowner. Stewart fired.

Stewart broke down in tears when police arrived. I could have given him a light, he said. But he said he had felt threatened. Police asked Stewart why he hadnt just waited inside until officers arrived. I dont know, replied Stewart. His unwanted visitor, he said, was unarmed. If I had a crazy drunk guy at my door, said Jeanann Kuch, Billys mother, Id have locked my door and called 911. Kuch spent five weeks in a coma. He woke with no recollection of the incident. Before the shooting, Kuch had supported the Stand Your Ground law, his parents said. Stewarts view of the law is not known. He did not return repeated calls, and no court ever asked, because Stewart was never brought before a judge.

Stewart was arrested that night, but Assistant State Attorney Manny Garcia concluded that his actions were justified.
---
D'oh!

----------


## guyinthailand

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> Yup, pictures of Zimmerman's head and reports so far indicate superficial injuries only.
> 
> 
> What 'reports', Ent?  *Cite one*.
> 
> Hey, Ent, the guy you're trying to hang--you know, Zimmerman--looks like  he was getting pounded by your sweet angel of a human being, Martin.  
> ...


What 'reports', Ent?  *Cite one*.

----------


## ENT

News reports and published pictures. Go and look it all up yourself you lazy fucktard!

----------


## guyinthailand

You're no different than NBC which doctored the tapes to make it seem Zimmerman is racist.

You spout lies and innuendos and can never, ever back it up.  You go out of your way to smear Zimmerman and you don't have a f*#king clue what you are talking about.

----------


## ENT

Your pathetic attempts at conjecture, like;

Quote you; "*Anyone would press down on an attacker to stop an attack*. Zimmerman could very well have been trying to defend himself against an enraged Martin who could have already been shot by then but still again repeatedly trying to grab Zimmerman's gun. As explained earlier, Zimmerman's gun was probably grabbed by Martin."

What a dumb idea!
The guy was already face down and out, motionless!
Witnesses watching him, trying to interrupt, and Zimmerman _still_ persisted in squashing Martin!


No wounds or bruises were seen on Martin's hands _either_ to show he was grabbing Zimmerman's gun.
Can't you read?

Lies and innuendo?
FFS you are nothing _but_ lies and innuendo!

You keep blabbing on and on about Martin pounding Zimmerman's head into the concrete when the whole deal happened on the grass, you moron!

You watch too many shit violence movies and talk too much crap with your wannabe gunslinger mates that you hang out with, ya thug!

----------


## guyinthailand

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> Yup, pictures of Zimmerman's head and reports so far indicate superficial injuries only.
> 
> 
> What 'reports', Ent? *Cite one*.
> 
> Hey, Ent, the guy you're trying to hang--you know, Zimmerman--looks like he was getting pounded by your sweet angel of a human being, Martin. 
> ...


 
*Knew you couldnt cite a report.* 
 


And, by the way, a report is a factual document that proves what you are saying, not some dumbshit biased news article that is merely touting the kind of speculation that you know and love so much.

  Still waiting on that report.

----------


## guyinthailand

> The guy was already face down and out, motionless!
> Witnesses watching him, trying to interrupt, and Zimmerman _still_ persisted in squashing Martin!
> 
> 
> No wounds or bruises were seen on Martin's hands _either_ to show he was grabbing Zimmerman's gun.
> Can't you read?
> 
> 
> You keep blabbing on and on about Martin pounding Zimmerman's head into the concrete when the whole deal happened on the grass, you moron!
> ...


go back to 5th grade and learn to read, Ent.  I never said 'concrete'.  I always said "ground".

And many people, if under a murderous attack, would have adrenaline flowing causing incredible strength and fighting ability.  Zimmerman could just have been jacked up on adrenaline to be trying to hold the other guy down.

Who cares anyway? What matters is this:  Did Zimmerman initiated the violence or did Martin.  That's what matters.  You post meaningless bullshit and lies to buttress your pathetic attempt to hang Zimmerman without your having the slightest clue what really happened.

"Super Power Ent Man" can see the rippling muscles of Zimmerman through his clothes! (remember that, Ent!  Hahahahah.  You said you could see his rippling muscles!!! hahahah) (you're plain hilarious)

"Super Power Ent Man" Can read the thoughts and motivations of Zimmerman. (You're delusional)

"Super Power Ent Man" can tell the angles of blood flow on Zimmerman's head prove Zimmerman murdered Martin.   *Ridiculous!*

Super Power Ent Man: said Zimmerman made false claims. (*but you couldn't back that statement up)*

Super Power Ent Man": said Zimmerman's injuries were minor. (*but you couldn't back that claim up*)  





> you lazy fucktard!



I'd rather be a 'fucktard' than a buffoon like you.

----------


## Camel Toe

> Who cares anyway? What matters is this: Did Zimmerman initiated the violence or did Martin. That's what matters.


Do you really think it's that simple?

The first one to touch or make an aggressive move towards the other is at fault .... maybe.  Consider all the variables.  There's nothing one could say to the other that'd give him the right to show physical aggression.  I mean you can't kill a guy for trash-talkin yo mama.  Zimmer had the only gun at the OK Corral.  He just admitted at the bail hearing he thought the kid was near his own age.  What's his defense going to do about that?  They can always site some social study that proves Blacks look twice their age.   :Smile: 

The key is that Zimmer persisted after he was told to back off.  Now is it just me or does that look kinda thugish?

----------


## guyinthailand

> Who cares anyway? What matters is this: Did Zimmerman initiated the violence or did Martin. That's what matters.
> 			
> 		
> 
> Do you really think it's that simple?
> 
> The first one to touch or make an aggressive move towards the other is at fault .... maybe.  Consider all the variables.  There's nothing one could say to the other that'd give him the right to show physical aggression.  I mean you can't kill a guy for trash-talkin yo mama.  Zimmer had the only gun at the OK Corral.  He just admitted at the bail hearing he thought the kid was near his own age.  What's his defense going to do about that?  They can always site some social study that proves Blacks look twice their age.  
> 
> The key is that Zimmer persisted after he was told to back off.  Now is it just me or does that kinda look thugish?



He was never told to back off by the cops. What they said was "we don't need you to do that" (i.e. "we don't need you to" keep following him).  They didn 't 'order' him to stop.

There is nothing illegal with following a person.  It is not necessarily thuggish.  If someone is following you, call the cops, that's their job to deal with stuff like that.  But turn around as Martin probably did and confront big bad 'whitey' following him?  Not a good move.

Yes, it matters who initiated the violence. But even if Martin was the first to push, if Zimmerman pushed him back then that should be a problem for Zimmerman's defense, 'stand your ground' or not.   If you're carrying a gun you usually are judged partly to blame even if 'all' you do is help escalate the situation. 

I've said it before but it's worth repeating.  A guy spits a gob of thick mucous in your girlfriend's face.  You push the guy.  The guy pulls a knife. You pull your hidden gun and shoot the guy.

Most judges are gonna say you were partially wrong for pushing the guy--you helped escalate it.  You need to instead leave a situation like that. Push the guy back and then end up shooting him?  You're looking at a $100,000 legal bill, and probably jail.

It remains to be seen if we ever learn what really happened that night.

I can see the possibility that Martin attacked Zimmmerman just for following him. (Self-proclaimed 'gangsta' wants to show 'whitey' who's boss.)   I can see Martin then seeing the gun on Zimmerman's waist and trying to get the gun.  Or, Martin was beating his head on the ground and Zimmerman pulls the gun.  All bets are off then for Martin.  

But if Zimmerman helped escalate the confrontation--rather than simply defending himself--then Zimmmerman is partly or fully responsible for wrongly taking a life.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Article from WaPo about Flawda's ridiculous law, which apparently was inspired by fears of terrorists and looters (maybe not in that order ). Whatever you do, don't knock on the wrong door:
> &lsquo;Stand Your Ground&rsquo; laws coincide with jump in justifiable-homicide cases - The Washington Post
> Billy Kuch was a troubled kid. As an adolescent, he had bipolar disorder diagnosed and he’d been arrested a couple of times for driving under the influence. He drank too much, and he knew it. So when he was out at a party that August night on Golden Eagle Drive near the intersection of Gun Smoke Drive, he decided he was too blitzed to drive home. He left the party to lock his keys inside his car so he couldn’t get behind the wheel later that night. Kuch, then 23, stumbled back toward the party but forgot which beige stucco house was hosting the bash. 
> 
> He knocked on the wrong door, the one belonging to Gregory Stewart, a 32-year-old homeowner who did not appreciate having his wife and baby disturbed by a drunk kid after 4 in the morning. Kuch went away and texted his sister that he was totally confused about what was going on. Then Kuch found what he thought was the party house and tried the door. But he’d landed at Stewart’s place, again.
> 
> This time, after Kuch turned the doorknob, Stewart told his wife to call 911. Then he grabbed his Smith & Wesson semiautomatic and went into his front yard. Stewart said he kept asking Kuch to leave, but Kuch, thinking the guys at the party were playing a joke on him, stayed. “Don’t make me shoot you,” warned the 6-foot-1 Stewart, according to police records. “I don’t want to shoot you.” Kuch, who stands 5-foot-9, raised his hands, asked for a light and lurched toward the homeowner. Stewart fired.
> 
> Stewart broke down in tears when police arrived. “I could have given him a light,” he said. But he said he had felt threatened. Police asked Stewart why he hadn’t just waited inside until officers arrived. “I don’t know,” replied Stewart. His unwanted visitor, he said, was unarmed. “If I had a crazy drunk guy at my door,” said Jeanann Kuch, Billy’s mother, “I’d have locked my door and called 911.” Kuch spent five weeks in a coma. He woke with no recollection of the incident. Before the shooting, Kuch had supported the Stand Your Ground law, his parents said. Stewart’s view of the law is not known. He did not return repeated calls, and no court ever asked, because Stewart was never brought before a judge.
> ...


That's a sad and tragic story.  Homeowner should have stayed inside and called the cops.

But....but it also shows how getting shit-faced drunk can ruin your life, either by driving drunk, or lurching toward a person with a gun pointed at you after he's repeatedly asked you to leave while you're on their property.

D'oh!

----------


## Camel Toe

> But turn around as Martin probably did and confront big bad 'whitey' following him? Not a good move.


Say what?  He was perfectly within his rights to confront a clear or present danger.   I can see I'm talking to a log, bye.

----------


## guyinthailand

I'm sorry to break this news to you:  someone following another person is definitely not a sign of 'clear and present danger'.

But you're saying that is a sign of paranoia.

----------


## Camel Toe

Oh my Lord, give me strength.

----------


## robuzo

> But turn around as Martin probably did and confront big bad 'whitey' following him? Not a good move.
> 			
> 		
> 
> Say what?  He was perfectly within his rights to confront a clear or present danger.   I can see I'm talking to a log, bye.


I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect a 17-year-old boy to rise above the situation and not act impulsively, don't you? And it's perfectly reasonable to tuck a pistol in one's trousers and follow someone you don't know in a gated community- who knows what horrors a lone, unarmed _hoodie-wearing_teenager might have got up to before eluding police (who were on the way), gated communities being so easy to slip out of. Under Florida law, the latter action is reasonable, or at least not discouraged. 

Read the article I posted. Slip a pistol into your pocket before you go to tell some goddamned skateboarder to get off the basketball court, someone's dad tells you to leave the kid alone and, why, you've got the gun so why back down? And if turns into fight and you have to kill the guy in front of his little girl, well it was self-defense, dontcha know? Because in Florida everybody has to be extra polite now, and don't confront the scold unless you have a gun, too. 

Madness.

----------


## Camel Toe

,,,amen,,,

----------


## guyinthailand

> Oh my Lord, give me strength.


Now he's not just paranoid, he's a religious paranoid.

----------


## Camel Toe

Dood, you have some sort of chemical imbalance.  Nobody could be that stupid without it.

----------


## S Landreth

George Zimmerman released from Fla. jail: George Zimmerman released from Fla. jail - Nation Wires - MiamiHerald.com




SANFORD, Fla. -- George Zimmerman was released around midnight Sunday from a Florida county jail on $150,000 bail as he awaits his second-degree murder trial for fatally shooting Trayvon Martin.

The neighborhood watch volunteer was wearing a brown jacket and blue jeans and carrying a paper bag. He walked out following another man and didn't look over at photographers gathered outside. He then followed the man into a white BMW vehicle and drove away.

Moments before, two Seminole County sheriff's vehicles blocked access to the intake building parking lot where Zimmerman was being released. Zimmerman emerged after two public information officers confirmed the credentials of the photographers outside.

No questions were shouted at Zimmerman, and he gave no statement.

His ultimate destination is being kept secret for his safety and it could be outside Florida.

Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester said at a hearing Friday he cannot have any guns and must observe a 7 p.m.-to-6 a.m. curfew. Zimmerman also surrendered his passport.

Zimmerman had to put up 10 percent, or $15,000, to make bail. His father had indicated he might take out a second mortgage.

Zimmerman worked at a mortgage risk-management company at the time of the shooting and his wife is in nursing school. A website was set up to collect donations for Zimmerman's defense fund. It is unclear how much has been raised.

Bail is not unheard of in second-degree murder cases, and legal experts had predicted it would be granted for Zimmerman because of his ties to the community, because he turned himself in after he was charged last week, and because he has never been convicted of a serious crime.

Prosecutors had asked for $1 million bail, citing two previous scrapes Zimmerman had with the law, neither of which resulted in charges. In 2005, he had to take anger management courses after he was accused of attacking an undercover officer who was trying to arrest Zimmerman's friend. In another incident, a girlfriend accused him of attacking her.

Zimmerman, 28, fatally shot Martin, 17, Feb. 26 inside the gated community where Zimmerman lived during an altercation. Martin was unarmed and was walking back to the home of his father's fiancée when Zimmerman saw him, called 911 and began following him. A fight broke out - investigators say it is unknown who started it.

Zimmerman says Martin, who was visiting from Miami, attacked him. Zimmerman says he Martin in self-defense, citing Florida's "stand your ground" law, which gives broad legal protection to anyone who says they used deadly force because they feared death or great bodily harm.

Zimmerman was not charged for over six weeks, sparking national protests led by Martin's parents, civil rights groups and the Revs. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. Martin was black; Zimmerman's father is white and his mother is from Peru.

Earlier Sunday, Zimmerman's attorney was working to secure the money for bail and a safe place for Zimmerman to stay. But residents in Sanford, where Martin was killed, didn't expect a ruckus once Zimmerman was released.

City commissioners said they hadn't received calls from nervous residents. Protesters didn't show up outside the jail. And talk at one local coffee shop seldom focused on the case.

"It's just kind of a non-issue now," said Michele Church, a server at Mel's Family Diner. "That's pretty much all anybody in Sanford wanted, was an arrest, so it could be sorted out in the court system."

there's a page 2 in the link

----------


## guyinthailand

> Dood, you have some sort of chemical imbalance.  Nobody could be that stupid without it.



Ow!  Ya got me!

I've been killed by the piercing wit of Camel Toe.




> He (Martin) was perfectly within his rights to confront a clear or  present danger.


Camel Toe:  Quick! 

Look behind you! 

Someone's following you!  

You are facing a 'clear and present danger'! 




> Oh my Lord, give me strength.


Quick!  Pray to Jeezus!

 (Did Jeezus teach you how to spell 'Dood')?

----------


## Camel Toe

Gayinthailand .. i bet you're a busy boy.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Gayinthailand .. i bet you're a busy boy.



Ow! Ya got me again with your incredible intelligence! 

Hey, Camel Toe, haven't you been reading the thread right here on Teakdoor titled *New study finds homophobic people are likely repressing same-sex attraction*

  Calling me 'gay'inthailand proves ya got a homo bent to ya.

 Guys like you can never keep your mouths shut talking about gay this and gay that. 

Don't ya find that interesting how guys like you who can’t stop yapping about homos are really homos themselves, deep down.

Keep talking about it, Camel Toe, cause it's okay. 

We accept you for who you really are. 

I just hope you can learn to accept it.

----------


## guyinthailand

> George Zimmerman released from Fla. jail:


Bout time for Ent to chime in with comments such as "Zimmerman should be hanging from a tree instead of walking free!"

----------


## Camel Toe

> Guys like you can never keep your mouths shut talking about gay this and gay that.


I apologize.  Never meant to offend you.  I understand, my cousin Bruce is gay too.  It's a hard life.

----------


## Camel Toe

> Bout time for Ent to chime in with comments such as "Zimmerman should be hanging from a tree instead of walking free!"


Is Martin guilty cause he's Black?  Looks like it.  What do you have against Blacks?  Say, you don't play banjo by any chance ...

----------


## DrAndy

> it'll all come out in the trial, that's for sure. Both prosecution and defence are entitled to access any evidence in the case. It doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks about it.


so it took you and your fellow protagonists here 980 plus posts to get to that statement!!

just sit back and wait for the court hearings

----------


## guyinthailand

> Guys like you can never keep your mouths shut talking about gay this and gay that.
> 			
> 		
> 
> I apologize.  Never meant to offend you.  I understand, my cousin Bruce is gay too.  It's a hard life.


You're still talking about gays, Camel Toe, which, as is explained elsewhere on this forum, shows you are gay.    I just knew you wouldn't be able to shut up about gay this and gay that!

And we don't care if your cousin Bruce is gay.

But we accept you for who you are.  

But shut up about it already. You're starting to sound like a shrieking queen.

----------


## DrAndy

> The neighborhood watch volunteer was wearing a brown jacket and blue jeans and carrying a paper bag


well, that is a sign of guilty



> He then followed the man into a white BMW vehicle and drove away.


what, a white one!!  guilty as hell

----------


## guyinthailand

> Is Martin guilty cause he's Black? Looks like it.


Retard question and answer of the day.

courtesy of one 'Camel Toe'

----------


## guyinthailand

> You watch too many shit violence movies and talk too much crap with your wannabe gunslinger mates that you hang out with, ya thug!


Seems we gotta add to Ent's growing list of super powers:  now he can tell what movies I watch and what I talk about with...what do you call them, Ent...oh, yes, 'gunslinger mates'.  

And I thought the *definition of a 'thug' was....YOU!*  who has already judged Zimmerman quilty *and who has posted lies and innuendo about Zimmerman.*

----------


## ENT

Definition of *a gay thug* is someone like you *who yacks on about gays thread after thread* on one page, *carries a concealed weapon, a gun, plus a couple of knives,* as you say you do, also concealed and *hangs around with similar types,* sucking up *a diet of violent movies* and *think that Aboob Massage chap is the bees knees on gun protocol.*

----------


## guyinthailand

> Definition of *a gay thug* is someone like you *who yacks on about gays thread after thread* on one page, *carries a concealed weapon, a gun, plus a couple of knives,* as you say you do, also concealed and *hangs around with similar types,* sucking up *a diet of violent movies* and *think that Aboob Massage chap is the bees knees on gun protocol.*



You're babbling incoherently!  Seriously, man, I think you're going to stroke out right here on Teakdoor.

Ent, don't you remember it was you who started this whole gayinthailand thing?  You're the one who started the gay bashing.

Is your Alzheimer's acting up again?  If you admit to having Alzheimer's I will stop bugging you about the fact that it is you who CONTINUES to talk about gay shit.  

As soon as you stop, I will stop.  But as long as you open your yapper about it I will point out to you that you are still yapping about it...and all that constant yapping on your part probably means you are a closet homosexual.

For it is guys who just can't stop yapping about homosexuals who have a homo streak in them.

So shut up already.

You thug who posts lies and innuendo about Zimmerman and Never, Ever can back up your assertions.  

Where's the 'report', Ent, proving Zimmerman's injuries were minor? 

Where's the proof Zimmerman made false claims' as you said he did.

Where is any evidence proving Zimmerman had "malicious intent" as you said he did?

The only one proven to be malicious is.....Surprise!.....YOU!

Thug!

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> 
> At least three witnesses reported that the fight was happening on the grass, and that Zimmerman kept pressing Martin face down down with his hands after shooting him.
> 
> That was a really dumb thing to do with people watching him.
> 
> 
> ...


Zimmerman wasn't fighting for his life when he was squashing Martin.
Martin wasn't even moving, fuckhead!

The empty chamber in Zimmerman's gun shows that Zimmerman had tried to reload the mag. after shooting Martin.

Initially Zimmerman said he shot Martin twice. Remember?

Witnesses said they saw powder burns (plural) on Martin's hoodie that night, not a powder burn (singular).

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> Definition of *a gay thug* is someone like you *who yacks on about gays thread after thread* on one page, *carries a concealed weapon, a gun, plus a couple of knives,* as you say you do, also concealed and *hangs around with similar types,* sucking up *a diet of violent movies* and *think that Aboob Massage chap is the bees knees on gun protocol.*
> 
> 
> 
> You're babbling incoherently!  Seriously, man, I think you're going to stroke out right here on Teakdoor.
> 
> ...


It's all in the papers gayboy.

----------


## guyinthailand

> gayboy.


Ent, I think it's about time, at this point in your therapy, that you be made aware of what you have been doing.  

Let's introduce to Ent the concept of 'projection'.

*"Psychological projection* or *projection bias* is a psychological defense mechanism where a person subconsciously denies  his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then  ascribed to the outside world, usually to other people. Thus, projection  involves imagining or _projecting_ the belief that others originate those feelings.[1]

----------


## DrAndy

> It's all in the papers gayboy.


proof positive, esp with all the evidence sealed

----------


## guyinthailand

> It's all in the papers gayboy.


Ent...epic fail !

You didn't provide one shred of evidence to back up your thuggish claims.

You say something about 'papers' the way Senator Joseph McCarthy waved around some papers during the HUAC witch hunts.  There was never anything actually IN the papers then, just as there isn't anything to your bullshit thugish allegations now.

He was a thug.

You are a thug.

Hey, ...that word...'thug'...isn't that the word YOU used before?  You now realize, I hope, that you are projecting about that too!

----------


## pickel

What a bunch of internet Perry Mason's in this thread. Shoulda been MKP'd long ago.

----------


## ENT

Oh fwk, the born again psychologist, gayinthailand.
Come on, let's hear it, give us a run down on Zimmermans personality. Was he gay too?
Like Aboob Massage your hero?

----------


## guyinthailand

> Zimmerman wasn't fighting for his life when he was squashing Martin.
> Martin wasn't even moving, fuckhead!


Even if that is true--and it isn't certain that it is true, just what 'someone' said---who cares! Zimmerman was jacked on adrenaline.  Some gangsta Mo#*erF*#ker just tried to kill him.  F*#ing squash his head all the way into the dirt, for all I care!




> The empty chamber in Zimmerman's gun shows that Zimmerman had tried to reload the mag. after shooting Martin.


Where did he get the extra round(s)?  Who carries a bunch of loose rounds in their pocket in addition to 8 rounds already loaded?  Ridiculous.  Zimmerman called the cops.  He had nothing to hide.




> Initially Zimmerman said he shot Martin twice. Remember?


Anybody who has just come from a life and death struggle can get events and the sequence of events wrong. Every judge, lawyer, and jury knows this. And, no, I don't know what Zimmerman said.  All I heard was stuff from the media, who have gotten so much wrong already. 




> Witnesses said they saw powder burns (plural) on Martin's hoodie that night, not a powder burn (singular).


This means little or nothing. Powder is sprayed in a wide 'cone' from one round.

----------


## guyinthailand

> What a bunch of internet Perry Mason's in this thread. Shoulda been MKP'd long ago.



The only moronic post so far is the one above.

Besides, this shit sells papers!

----------


## guyinthailand

> Oh fwk, the born again psychologist, gayinthailand.
> Come on, let's hear it, give us a run down on Zimmermans personality. Was he gay too?
> Like Aboob Massage your hero?


Please, I beg you Ent: get some therapy!  (You're in the closet! Come out!) Try saying the following word, Ent.  Ready? ...here it comes....P-R-O-J-E-C-T-I-O-N

Can't you just post stuff about the Martin/Zimmerman issue this thread is supposed to be about instead of constantly talking about your favorite topic: homosexuality?

----------


## Cujo

> What a bunch of internet Perry Mason's in this thread. Shoulda been MKP'd long ago.


I envisiage a couple of effeminate wannabe intellectuals hitting each other with handbags when I read this thread.

----------


## guyinthailand

> I envisiage a couple of effeminate wannabe intellectuals hitting each other with handbags when I read this thread.



Koojo: go back up a couple posts and read the definition of 'projection'.

Ah, here it is again as it might really help you.

*"Psychological projection* or *projection bias* is a psychological defense mechanism where a person subconsciously denies   his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then   ascribed to the outside world, usually to other people. Thus, projection   involves imagining or _projecting_ the belief that others originate those feelings.[1]

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> 
> I envisiage a couple of effeminate wannabe intellectuals hitting each other with handbags when I read this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Koojo: go back up a couple posts and read the definition of 'projection'.
> 
> ...


Go back to your handbag fight with ent will you.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Go back to your handbag fight with ent will you.


Are you braindead? 

You picked a fight with me.  

You must be a glutton for punishment.

Try to stay on topic, little 'Koojo', and post something relevant to the substance of this thread.  Otherwise, you're in the same league with Ent and Camel Toe.  

Your 'handbag' bullshit above really shows the depths of your intelligence.

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> 
> Go back to your handbag fight with ent will you.
> 
> 
> Are you braindead?  You picked a fight with me.  You must be a glutton for punishment.
> 
> Try to stay on topic, little 'Koojo', and post something relevant to the substance of this thread.  Otherwise, you're in the same league with Ent and Camel Toe.  Your 'handbag' bullshit above really shows the depths of your intelligence.


Uh oh, I'm in trouble now.

 :smiley laughing:  :smiley laughing: 

Get back to bickering and handbags with Ent.
Now.

----------


## ENT

You wanna big kiss or something Koojo?   :mid:

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> Initially Zimmerman said he shot Martin twice. Remember?
> 
> 
>  Witnesses said they saw powder burns (plural) on Martin's hoodie that night, not a powder burn (singular).


This means little or nothing. Powder is sprayed in a wide 'cone' from one round.[/QUOTE]

*The powder doesn't shoot off in two different directions!*
The shot was described as "very close", by a friend of Zimmerman's, so powder burn was limited to very close to the entry point of the bullet.
A contact shot will spray very little or no powder at all far from the wound, depending on the angle of the gun muzzle to the contact point.
The powder burn will show in one localised area.

Powder "burns" on Martin's hoodie indicates more than one area of contact, thus multiple discharges.

There is one recording aired of _two shots_ fired and *several witnesses including Zimmerman said that two shots were fired.*

Only one bullet case was retrieved by the police that night along with the gun used which had an empty chamber.
This could have been due to quickly reloading the mag with one extra round before police arrived.
Zimmerman could quite easily have carried one or more loose rounds in his pocket

----------


## guyinthailand

> [ 
> 
>  Witnesses said they saw powder burns (plural) on Martin's hoodie that night, not a powder burn (singular).
> 
> *The powder doesn't shoot off in two different directions!*
> The shot was described as "very close", by a friend of Zimmerman's, so powder burn was limited to very close to the entry point of the bullet.
> A contact shot will spray very little or no powder at all far from the wound, depending on the angle of the gun muzzle to the contact point.
> The powder burn will show in one localised area.
> 
> ...


Ent, they often say powder "burnS" even if only one shot was fired. That's because there's a bunch of hot gasses coming out of the gun.  Not one speck or precise stream.  So don't think you know there were two separate areas of powder burns on the hoodie just because you heard the phrase "powder burns".

If Zimmerman said two shots were fired--IF he said that--then 1) either he fired one shot and thought he fired two or 2) he really fired two.  

One shot, two shots, powder burns upDownFrontBack Doesn't matter and it doesn't show, indicate or prove he is lying or trying to hide anything.  What matters is if Zimmerman can show he had a reasonable fear his life was in danger.

Most people who carry semi-autos don't carry loose rounds.  It's not like loose change in the pocket, Ent.

----------


## ENT

I beg to differ on three points.

1) I've often carried spare ammo in my jacket pocket, either single rounds or multiple in a box or mag.

2) "they always say powder "burnS" even if only one shot was fired."

Not so, in a forensic report powder burn refers to gun discharge residue around one point while powder burns refer to more than one burnt point.

3) The witnesses who saw the body described Martin as lying face down. So did the cops.

Same as the guy who took the pic of Zimmerman's (wet and bleeding) head, he said Martin was face down too.
The witness supposedly took the picture 3 minutes after Martin was shot, after Zimmerman asked him to call his wife, supposedly after police and medics arrived, who administered CPR on Martin.

The only way to see those burns in the dark was close up, so the witness was either a cop or a medic, then the burns to the hoodie are explainable as being visible in _the font_ of Martin's hoodie, as CPR was being given.

The only persons likely to be close enough to Zimmerman to take the pic at that time were the police and medics, also.

----------


## guyinthailand

Ent, who cares if you say you carried loose rounds in your pocket. Even if that were true, most people don’t do it. Besides, whatever you say cannot be believed at face value because you have posted so many falsifications and bullshit that you are like the little boy who cried wolf. 

It doesn’t matter if they can show Zimmerman reloaded—which is highly, highly unlikely; what is more likely is the gun was grabbed by Martin retarding the slide preventing the top round in the magazine from being pushed into chamber. For all we know, *Martin* caused the gun to fire when he grabbed it as Zimmerman was holding it. 

But if in the unlikely event Zimmerman reloaded, do you really ‘blame’ him? It is possible he was just attacked by Martin and Zimmerman was freaking out wondering if there were going to be ‘friends’ of Martin showing up. But, like I said, most likely scenario is Martin made the incredibly dumb mistake of grabbing Zimmerman’s pistol either in Zimmerman’s hand or from his waist band causing the gun to shoot himself but Martin’s hand over gun prevented slide from pushing new round into chamber.

So, it doesn’t matter if he reloaded or not. *What matters is who started the violence and who escalated the violence.* If Zimmerman did either then he should be found guilty of wrongfully taking a life.

Most references talk about ‘powder burn*S*” in reference to the burns caused by hot gasses. But this one here shows the term may be inappropriate for anything other than black powder. Whatever. The term is plural, burn*S*, in most instances. But it doesn’t matter anyway now especially since you are just conjecturing from some imprecise thing you heard in the news.
Evaluation of Gunshot Wounds
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedi...es/gunshot.pdf
Forensic Pathology

----------


## Camel Toe

> Try to stay on topic, little 'Koojo', and post something relevant to the substance of this thread.


I thought this was gwargamel's thread.

May I post a comment, gay?  I'd ask the ex owner but he's offline.

----------


## Camel Toe

> highly unlikely; what is more likely is the gun was grabbed by Martin retarding the slide preventing the top round in the magazine from being pushed into chamber.


I saw that happen in one of those Philippine B movies once, way cool .. then this three headed mutant chicken can running by and pecked the gunman's head off and all this blood was shooting into the air as if there was a pump under his trousers with a tube heading to his shirt's collar, then a snake crawled by and ate the finger the guy lost holding the pistol's slid back, like it was waaay far out dood!

----------


## S Landreth

a side note,..........

Police Chief in Trayvon Martin Case Expected to Resign: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/24/us...rtin-case.html

SANFORD, Fla. — The police chief who temporarily stepped aside last month over his department’s handling of the shooting death of Trayvon Martin is expected to resign Monday, according to city officials.

Chief Bill Lee Jr. of the Sanford police department dismissed earlier calls for his resignation after questions were raised about why his department did not immediately arrest George Zimmerman, the 28-year-old neighborhood watch volunteer who was released early Monday on bail while he awaits trial on second-degree murder charges.

City commissioners in Sanford were scheduled to hold a special meeting at Monday at 4 p.m. to consider Mr. Lee’s expected departure and his severance agreement.

“They have a separation agreement and we have to approve it later on,” said Mark McCarty, a city commissioner who has been critical of Mr. Lee’s handling of the case. “I am pleased that they have come to agreement for Mr. Lee to leave the chief’s job.”

After the local state attorney stepped aside in the wake of criticism that the case had been moving too slowly, Gov. Rick Scott appointed Angela B. Corey as special prosecutor. Ms. Corey then brought second-degree murder charges against Mr. Zimmerman on April 11, charging that Mr. Zimmerman had profiled Mr. Martin and followed him as he walked through the gated community where Mr. Zimmerman lived.

Patty Mahany, who is also a city commissioner in Sanford and a supporter of Mr. Lee, said she would have liked for Norton N. Bonaparte Jr., the city manager, to have kept Mr. Lee in his job. “I am so disappointed in Norton for not standing by this man,” she said.

and

A source within the Sanford Police Department said one of the acting chiefs may also tenure his resignation today as well: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-...cially-resign/

----------


## Camel Toe

> a side note,..........


 :Smile: 
.....

----------


## ENT

> Most references talk about ‘powder burn*S*” in reference to the burns caused by hot gasses. But this one here shows the term may be inappropriate for anything other than black powder. Whatever. The term is plural, burn*S*, in most instances. But it doesn’t matter anyway now especially since you are just conjecturing from some imprecise thing you heard in the news.


When referring to a *close contact* firing, burnt powder marks appear around the entry wound.
The closer the muzzle to point of contact gives a smaller diameter of scattered burning and burnt particles of powder.
This is called a* burn pattern,* which can indicate the distance the gun was fired from, and can also determine whether a rifle or a pistol shot caused the wound.
*Powder residue* may also be found at a considerable distance from the muzzle also, on the hands, face, clothing etc. of both the gun user and the victim.
There is* only one burn mark*, discerned  around a single close contact shot, not multiple marks.
A wide scatter of hot powder obviously leaves a larger* burn mark pattern*.
Point blank contact gunshot entry wounds typically have a a more distinctive burn mark at point of entry of the projectile as hot gases char the the rim and surrounding surface to the wound.

Under the poor light conditions that night,a visually evident powder burn on Martin's hoody indicates to me that the muzzle of the gun was approximately 3 < 12 inches distance in front of his chest, at close contact, but not point blank range, to be a large enough an area of burn to be visible from a few feet away.

Therefore, adding another 8 inches for gun length, Zimmerman's hand was a minimum of 11 < 20 inches away from Martin's hoody when fired.
If Zimmerman's forearm was extended, elbow at his side, by another 12 inches, that places Zimmerman's chest 23 < 32 inches away from Martin when he shot him.
Thus they could not be  in close physical contact or grappling at that point.

At closer contact than that, the gun muzzle would have to be at almost point blank range, Zimmerman's forearm drawn back, or to one side. thus causing the angle of trajectory to change from directly in front and almost horizontal, to pointing upward and /or from one side.

Another possibility is that Zimmerman was standing upright, holding the gun with extended arms to fire, thus there needed to be a distance of approximately 3ft between Zimmerman and Martin, with the muzzle at 3<12 inches away from Martin.

A gunshot burn mark would be almost indiscernible or identifiable as such at any more than 6 feet away in the semi darkness, ,at that time.
Martin was shot in the upper chest, the bullet therefore missed the heart, so death was not instantaneous.

The following few minutes after the shot was fired were critical to Martin's survival as he slowly hemorraged to death.
Then, Zimmerman, deliberately hastened Martin's hemorrage by pressing down on his back, squeezing the life blood out of him..
So Martin then died.

----------


## guyinthailand

Nothing but pure conjecture on Ent's part.  And none of it matters.

What matters is if Martin initiated violence and if Zimmerman was fighting for his life.  If so, then Zimmerman walks.  If not, and if Zimmerman is shown with proof (not with conjecture)--if Zimmerman is shown to have initiated or even escalated unneccesarily the conflict, then Zimmerman should be convicted of at least manslaughter.

----------


## Camel Toe

> should be convicted of at least manslaughter.


Cutting edge reporting!  How could it be anything but 2nd degree?  Third degree is an accident caused by negligence.  Was Zimmer cleaning his pistol when it suddenly went off?

----------


## ENT

^^guyinthailand;*You got it all wrong* as you ignore the obvious.

It was *unarmed Martin fighting for his life* against an *armed Zimmerman who stalked him into a confrontation* against police advice.
After shooting Martin, *Zimmerman then squashed him dead* as he lay hemorraging and fighting for his life.

----------


## guyinthailand

I've ALWAYS maintained Zimmerman could be at fault.

I've only proposed self-defense for him to counter your wanting to string him up without a fair trial as you're doing now: pretending to know what the F*#k happened, and spouting all kinds of theories and innuendo and talking about "following"  as if Zimmerman committed a crime 'following' Martin--ridiculous Ent!  An 'unarmed martin"---yeah, right, Ent--the unarmed Martin who was trying to kill Zimmerman by pounding his head into the ground and possibly grabbing for Zimmerman's gun so he could shoot Zimmerman with it.

One of two things happened: either
Zimmerman attacked Martin and Martin was fighting for his life or
Martin attacked Zimmerman and Zimmerman shot him deliberately (or Martin pulled on the gun causing gun to fire).

And, P.S., if someone attacked me with deadly force and they ended up getting shot I might still very well be found trying to 'squash his head into the ground as he lay hemorrhaging'.  Adrenaline released during a fight to the death can have that effect on you.

----------


## ENT

> I've ALWAYS maintained Zimmerman could be at fault.
> 
> I've only proposed self-defense for him to counter your wanting to string him up without a fair trial as you're doing now: pretending to know what the F*#k happened, and spouting all kinds of theories and innuendo and talking about "following"  as if Zimmerman committed a crime 'following' Martin who was trying to kill Zimmerman by pounding his head into the ground anllowing' Martin ridiculous-- Ent!  An 'unarmed martin"---yeah, right, Ent--the unarmed Martind possibly grabbing for Zimmerman's gun so he could shoot Zimmerman with it.
> 
> One of two things happened: either
> Zimmerman attacked Martin and Martin was fighting for his life or
> Martin attacked Zimmerman and Zimmerman shot him deliberately (or Martin pulled on the gun causing gun to fire).
> 
> And, P.S., if someone attacked me with deadly force and they ended up getting shot I might still very well be found trying to 'squash his head into the ground as he lay hemorrhaging'.  Adrenaline released during a fight to the death can have that effect on you.


OK. Now we're starting to reach common ground in our discussion.
You indicate. that it might be possible that Zimmerman was the guilty party
Our points of difference are;

*1)You say,"I've ALWAYS maintained Zimmerman could be at fault."*
Not so. You have *often proposed* that Zimmerman was _innocent_ of wrong doing, all in several of your previous posts.

*2)You say,"your wanting to string him up without a fair trial as you're doing now:"*
Not so. *I have never proposed that Zimmerman be strung up,* nor described a suitable sentence for him if he's found guilty.

*3)You say," pretending to know what the F*#k happened, and spouting all kinds of theories"*
I don't pretend to know what I say. *I post my opinions and conjecture and give references as much as possible.* I know some things relative to published information or certain procedures in forensics and legal process.

*4)You say,"talking about "following"  as if Zimmerman committed a crime 'following' Martin"*
Zimmerman, a self-appointed neighbourhood watch captain, armed. against the law in in his self appointed role as such, *followed Martin against police advice.A deliberate act of defiance of established protocol.Thus Zimmerman broke the rules in following and in fact stalking* Martin.This is characteristic of a narcissistic personality. A classic stalker.

*5)You say,"Martin who was trying to kill Zimmerman by pounding his head into the ground"*
No evidence of that exists. Angle of head to ground for such was impossible and  photograph shows blood running down Zimmermans head and neck, *Zimmerman being in an upright position when wounds were inflicted,* not running or spread across back of head consistent with being pounded downwards while on his back.

*6)You say,"unarmed Martin possibly grabbing for Zimmerman's gun so he could shoot Zimmerman with it"*
Again, no evidence, only hearsay on the part of Zimmerman, his father and supporters.
Martin's undertaker stated that there were* no visible signs of assault or defence injuries on Martin's hands.*
The slide action of Zimmerman's gun would have at least nicked or bruised Martin's hands if he attempted to grasp Zimmerman's  gun during reload, as proposed by some.Zimmerman's father stated that Martin "went for" Zimmerman's gun, but said no more than that about it.
Again, hearsay.

*7)You say." Martin pulled on the gun causing gun to fire"*
Again, if so, the slide action would clip his palm or fingers causing *visible blood blisters or bruising or cuts. None were found.* 

*8)You say,"One of two things happened: either Zimmerman attacked Martin and Martin was fighting for his life or
Martin attacked Zimmerman and Zimmerman shot him deliberately"*
Now we're back to square one. Was it him or him?
The evidence reported so far indicates that *Martin was fighting for his life, twice.*
Once, before he was shot, and then again afterwards when Zimmerman finished him off by *squashing him face down while hemorraging.* 

*9)You say,"squash his head into the ground as he lay hemorrhaging'.*
Zimmerman was not squashing Martin's head down. *He was squashing Martin's back, pushing the life blood out of him.*
A second and deliberate act of pre-meditated murder.

----------


## guyinthailand

> You have *often proposed* that Zimmerman was _innocent_ of wrong doing, all in several of your previous posts.


1) Of course I've proposed that.  It is a distinct possibility.  but not to you, who accuses him of 'premeditated murder'.

2 -8) blah blah blah




> *9)You say,"squash his head into the ground as he lay hemorrhaging'.*
> Zimmerman was not squashing Martin's head down. *He was squashing Martin's back, pushing the life blood out of him.*


It's all conjecture, Ent.  All 'accounts' from 'witnesses'.  You don't know what was going on and neither do I.  I was responding to your post where you implied Zimmerman's alleged "pushing" Martin into the ground somehow indicates Zimmerman is a murderer. Head, back, whatever.  Doesn't matter.  Not one bit.  As usual in your posts, what you post is not germane to the discussion: which is: Was Zimmerman defending his life from a murderous attack by Martin, or was it the other way around.




> A second and deliberate act of pre-meditated murder.


For once, Ent, stop sounding like a berserk fascist who sees 'guilty until proven innocent'

Adrenaline would make the normal person 'push' a person's back/head/whatever into the ground during a fight to the death.  I would. I'd plant the guys head as a f*#king tree right there in the ground.  And his back, too.

----------


## guyinthailand

ent quote 1025



> Definition of *a gay thug* is someone like you *who yacks on about gays thread after thread* on one page, *carries a concealed weapon, a gun, plus a couple of knives,* as you say you do, also concealed and *hangs around with similar types,* sucking up *a diet of violent movies*  and *think that Aboob Massage chap is the bees knees on gun protocol.*


Ent post 1045 



> 1) I've often carried spare ammo in my jacket pocket, either single rounds or multiple in a box or mag.


Post 1025 Ent criticizes me for carrying a gun and knife.

Post 1045 Ent says he's carried loose rounds in his pocket presumably for his gun.

Hey, Ent, do you realize what these two posts make you?

They make you either a liar or a hypocrite.

Which one is it, Ent?

----------


## ENT

Hey kid, you've _never_ been in a fight to the death, that's for sure.
You wouldn't know how to punch your way out of a wet paper bag.

As for carrying a few spare rounds in the pocket, normal in the old days or places when guns weren't as regulated. Standard practice if you were a hunter, or if not sure about possible outcomes. We'd wear a bush jacket then, with individual ammo sockets sewn in the front.
Easy to use a a side pocket with loose ammo, also.
Mine was right side.

But, these days, carrying an extra round under a concealed weapons licence is a no-no,
Too easy to use!!!
That's why, dumbfuck.

Yeh, right, you carry concealed weapons, I don't, that's the difference between us.

You're a new boy in the game.

Now why don't you post some sense, eh?

It'd save a lot of stupid arguing, and folks could get closer to the truth of things.

----------


## guyinthailand

> As for carrying a few spare rounds in the pocket, normal in the old days  or places when guns weren't as regulated. Standard practice if you were  a hunter, or if not sure about possible outcomes. We'd wear a bush  jacket then, with individual ammo sockets sewn in the front.
> Easy to use a a side pocket with loose ammo, also.
> Mine was right side.


Okay, so you admit you're a hypocrite.

----------


## robuzo

> should be convicted of at least manslaughter.
> 			
> 		
> 
> Cutting edge reporting!  How could it be anything but 2nd degree?  Third degree is an accident caused by negligence.  Was Zimmer cleaning his pistol when it suddenly went off?


I think you misunderstand what constitutes manslaughter. Conviction of manslaughter is no field of buttercups. 2nd degree requires mens rea whereby the murder is not premeditated or a crime of passion but is the result of assault that could lead to death. On the other hand:
Orlando Murder Defense Attorney | Homicide Case Lawyer: Attempted Murder Manslaughter
Manslaughter is the killing of a human being by culpable negligence without lawful justification. Culpable negligence is an act beyond normal negligence that is so gross and flagrant that it evinces a reckless disregard for human life and the consequences of ones own actions. It can also be used when prosecuting the use of excessive force that caused the death of another. Manslaughter is covered pursuant to Florida Statute 782.07. It will generally be either a second degree or first degree felony, and will carry a *mandatory minimum sentence if a firearm was involved*. Like a murder case, these are expensive cases for a client, and intense cases for an attorney. It is rare that a conviction will not involve a lengthy jail sentence.

----------


## DrAndy

> As soon as you stop, I will stop. But as long as you open your yapper about it I will point out to you that you are still yapping about it...and all that constant yapping on your part probably means you are a closet homosexual.





> So shut up already.


fascinating

----------


## DrAndy

so, has anyone heard any real evidence yet?

thought not

carry on

----------


## S Landreth

> Police Chief in Trayvon Martin Case Expected to Resign: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/24/us...rtin-case.html


an update

Sanford’s city commission refuses police chief’s resignation: Sanford's city commission refuses police chief's resignation - Trayvon Martin - MiamiHerald.com


The Sanford City Commission refused to accept the resignation of its embattled police chief Monday, saying the law enforcement leader has a spotless record and deserves more time for the city to determine whether he bungled the Trayvon Martin probe.

A month after handing down a no-confidence vote against Chief Bill Lee, the same commission voted 3-2 to keep him on. Lee took a paid leave of absence last month after coming under fire for his handling of the investigation into Trayvon’s killing.

“I’m physically sick about what’s happening to Chief Lee,” said City Commissioner Patty Mahany. “I’m physically sick about the attack on this community. I’m absolutely disgusted. … This city was invaded by people who have their own personal agenda.”

----------


## ENT

Lee is bound to have his supporters, and they'll still try to keep him on as police chief, but he's blown his reputation as an impartial cop, not necessarily on a race issue but on the matter of appropriate evaluation and investigation of a crime.

From several witness reports, he and his investigation team conducting enquiries into Martin's death refused to take evidence or record some witness statements when they attempted to volunteer information.

He decided that he had all he wanted to know about the matter and refused to charge Zimmerman for reasons known only to himself.
They were not based on facts in the matter.

If he stays on as police chief there'll be trouble, not just from the black community but from a very large segment of the white community too.

Wasn't it Patty Mahany who over-rode the police departments decision not to release the 911 recodings of the night of the murder?
She's either good at shooting herself in the foot or about to go too, IMO.

----------


## ENT

Well, surprise! The courts released the sealed documents on the Zimmerman case!
This'll be a bit of a chew!

*Documents released in George Zimmerman case*
Updated: Monday, 23 Apr 2012, 9:05 PM EDT
Just hours after George Zimmerman walked out of the Seminole County jail $150,000 bail, the court unsealed several documents.

Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester issued an order to unseal several documents. According to one of the documents released Monday, *Zimmerman's arraignment was pushed forward from May 29 to May 8.*
Zimmerman's location is being kept a secret for his safety and could be outside the state of Florida.
View documents here >>>

Read more: Documents released in George Zimmerman case

Alternative link to documents
http://www.flcourts18.org/presspublic.html

So things are speeding up, must be necessary as civic business is being de-railed as repercussions flip around Sanford.
What with Lee's resignation then Hanny's hand wringing and all the other step downs and stand ups the circus has really come to town!

The city commissioners have now voted 3 to 2 to keep Lee on!

*Sanford Rejects Police Chief's Official Resignation Over Trayvon Martin Shooting [Updated]*

Bill Lee, who removed himself from the Trayvon Martin investigation amid widespread criticism of his department's failure to arrest George Zimmerman in the wake of the incident, is expected to officially resign today. According to an announcement made by Sanford officials, the city commission will hold a 4 p.m. meeting to "approve" Lee's separation agreement, which will become effective at midnight. Meanwhile, while City Manager Norton Bonaparte said in a statement that he was "confident" that Lee's temporary replacement, Darren Scott, would remain on board, CBS is reporting that a source within the department said "one of" the acting chiefs might depart, as well. Update: Apparently, the outcome of that meeting was less predetermined than observers assumed. Sanford's commissioners have voted 3-2 to reject Lee's resignation, with one saying he "needs to be reinstated immediately."

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/04...step-down.html

----------


## attaboy

> And it doesn't even matter if the injuries were 'serious' or not.  The point is Martin was pounding Zimmerman's head and his nose.
> 
> The question is: was Martin doing it in self-defense against an enraged, maniacal Zimmerman who was intent on 'murdering' Martin?   Or did the self-proclaimed tough 'gangsta' Martin attack Zimmerman first?


It may be Martin was pounding Zimmermann because Zimmermann pulled his gun on Martin.  Zimmermann's father says George went for his cell phone when confronted by Martin.  How do we know that George wasn't actually flashing his gun when he says he was going for his cell phone?

----------


## attaboy

> The empty chamber in Zimmerman's gun shows that Zimmerman had tried to reload the mag. after shooting Martin.
> 
> Witnesses said they saw powder burns (plural) on Martin's hoodie that night, not a powder burn (singular).


Why wouldn't there be a round in the chamber? If he ejected the magazine clip there would still be a round in the chamber.  If he replaced the magazine clip to reload and pulled back on the slide a round would be ejected from the chamber and when the slide moved forward a new round would be chambered. 

My guess is after he ascertained Martin was dead he removed the round from the chamber so the gun would be safe for inspection by authorities.  He sounds like the kind of guy who would be thinking of gun safety after shooting someone.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

What do witnesses know about powder burns?  Are you saying police testimony?  Where are you getting this information?

----------


## attaboy

> Powder "burns" on Martin's hoodie indicates more than one area of contact, thus multiple discharges.


What do the powder burns indicate if the clothing was not immediately booked into evidence?  What do the powder burns indicate if the clothing sat in a paper bag at the funeral parlor before being retrieved by police?  Where are you getting this information?  Can you provide a link? Otherwise this is not news but conjecture.

----------


## bsnub

As has been stated before a lot of Perry Masons on this thread. None of it matters at this point. It will wind up in the hands of a jury of his peers and they will decide. All of this is just bluster.

----------


## attaboy

^^^^^lol.  re the first link to the court documents, the last document posted says "Page 5 of 7" at the bottom of the page.  Lol. 

I read the Affidavit for Probable Cause - Second Degree Murder.  There isn't any more "information" there than what has been specualted on television.  What sort of additional investigating did they do?


Unfortunately Martin's run ins with campus police aren't recorded with the 18th Circuit Court or the campus police records and the campus police records on file with the local police could be included with the 18th Circuit Court Media Advisories.  I say this because the court saw fit to release previous Zimmermann records filed with the court.




> It is the goal of the Eighteenth Judicial Circuit to ensure that the  media and public are accommodated to the best of the Court's abilities  during special interest/high profile proceedings. Below you will find  media advisories *and public record documents pertaining to State v.  Zimmerman* (2012-CF-001083-A). Please continue to check this website for  updates. Documents will be posted as they are made available for public  distribution.


How does Zimmermann's previous arrest record and a restraining order pertain to this case?

----------


## sabang

> How does Zimmermann's previous arrest record and a restraining order pertain to this case?


It doesn't, and neither does Martin's. Only of media interest, although a previous record would likely lead to a more severe sentence if guilt is established. In this case though, the 'previous record' is trivial- certainly when he is facing a second degree murder charge.

----------


## Butterfly

> After shooting Martin, Zimmerman then squashed him dead as he lay hemorraging and fighting for his life.


jesus, what a courageous hero

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> 
> The empty chamber in Zimmerman's gun shows that Zimmerman had tried to reload the mag. after shooting Martin.
> 
> Witnesses said they saw powder burns (plural) on Martin's hoodie that night, not a powder burn (singular).
> 
> 
> ...


*Why wouldn't there be a round in the chamber?* 

Apparently the gun had a spent cartridge case in the chamber, on reading other reports
This could indicate that the slide was impeded in some way to stop the cartridge being ejected after firing.
Martin's hand on the gun, holing the slide and the gun frame could cause that.
Powder residue and cuts on Martin's hand would confirm this.

Another possibility is that the gun could have been pressed up against Zimmerman's body, peventing the slide action.
Again, powder residue on Zimmerman's clothes would confirm this.

The other option is that Zimmerman tried to reload the gun manually because of the un-ejected cartridge case.
The police recovered one empty cartridge case at the scene.
In the gun or on the ground?
I don't know.

*What do witnesses know about powder burns?  Are you saying police testimony?  Where are you getting this information*
The witness who photographed Zimmerman's head *(3 minutes after the shooting)* and who saw Martin lying face down on the ground. said that the powder burns were clearly visible on Martin's hoody.
He also said that* he heard the fight*, but did not see it.
The police and medics *arrived 1 minute* after the shooting, then turned Martin's body face up to give CPR.

If this was the case, then the witness, if he was close enough, could "clearly see" the powder burns on the hoody. 

Being there 3 minutes after the shooting indicates that the pic was taken 2 minutes after the cops arrived, and that Zimmerman, for some unknown reason was still free to wander around after the cops arrived, to ask the guy to phone his wife and then pose for a pic.

Isn't that a little unusual?

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> Powder "burns" on Martin's hoodie indicates more than one area of contact, thus multiple discharges.
> 
> 
> What do the powder burns indicate if the clothing was not immediately booked into evidence?  What do the powder burns indicate if the clothing sat in a paper bag at the funeral parlor before being retrieved by police?  Where are you getting this information?  Can you provide a link? Otherwise this is not news but conjecture.


Powder burns don't disappear off clothing or tissue unless they are deliberately physically removed by scraping off.

A link to this article of a witness seeing gun powder on Martin's hoody is below.

The person who took the photograph at the scene says a dazed Zimmerman asked him to call his wife and tell her hed just shot someone. The photographer also claims to have seen gun powder on Martins hoodie, an indication that the shooting allegedly occurred at close range.

Alleged George Zimmerman Photo Shows Bloody Head | Trayvon Martin | TheBlaze.com


Another article on that point.

The photographer told ABC News exclusively that they did not see the scuffle that night, but did hear it. The source saw Martin's prostrate body on the wet grass and claims the gunpowder burns on Martin's gray hoodie were clearly visible; the gunpowder marks could show that Martin was shot at very close range.

Warning Graphic Photo: Possible New Evidence Shows George Zimmerman's Bloodied Head - Yahoo!

----------


## Cujo

> A link to this article of a witness seeing gun powder on Martin's hoody is below.


This is the kind of thing people need to be careful about.
The witness saw gunpowder on the hoodie???
Really??
Did he take a sample and have it analyzed to determine it was gunpowder?
Or has he seen gunpowder on hoodies that many times it was unmistakable.
Or did he see something he ASSUMED was gunpowder on the hoodie?
To say categorically he saw gunpowder on the hoodie is wrong.
To accept that someone said that and accept it as truth is wrong.
What is correct is he saw something that for some reason he assumed was gunpowder on the hoodie.
Has the witness ever seen gunpowder on a hoodie before?

----------


## ENT

I wouldn't know mate.
The same witness was the one who conveniently turned up to photograph Zimmerman's bloody head.
There appears to be some question as to what he did or didn't see or do at the time.

I think thee's another report somerhere of the Sanford PD stating that powder burn was found on the hoody.

It'd be damned hard to see those burns at night unless he was close up.
As I pointed out in my previous post, WTF was he doing there and WTF was Zimmerman still running around bleating for a call to his wife two minutes after the cops arrived?

Something out of line was going on there.

----------


## OhOh

Interesting video/interview with someone who actually knows a little about US law.

Dershowitz: Prosecutor in Trayvon Martin case overreached with murder charge | Fox News

----------


## Camel Toe

Wow, you gotta listen to Alan.  I think I just did a one eighty.  "The prosecuter was hired to prevent a riot.  And now the expectations are too high."

----------


## ENT

The records show that less than ten minutes passed from Zimmerman’s first sighting of Trayvon, to Zimmerman’s shooting of Trayvon as they wrestled in a neighborhood walkway between houses. Where possible, I’ve included the times of events down to the second, but some events and phone calls were only recorded by the minute, making some guess work necessary.

Timeline of Events

7.04pm: Trayvon receives a call from “DeeDee,” a minor female that has been reported as his girlfriend. He is using a headset, walking home on his way back from the store after grabbing a snack and a drink, and he has been on the phone with DeeDee since he left there. According to DeeDee, it begins to rain, and he takes shelter at one of the buildings in the townhouse complex, while the two continue to chat. The referenced building is possibly the awning marked in purple on the above image. DeeDee ends her phone call with Trayvon before 7:09pm, but will then call him back a couple minutes later.

7;09;34 pm: Zimmerman, in his truck, spots Trayvon. He calls the non-emergency dispatch number for the police, and the call log [PDF] records his call as connecting with dispatch at 7;09;4pm. [Note: Relevant log begins on page 46.] He reports a suspicious black male in neighborhood. An recording of Zimmerman’s police call can be found here. Zimmerman states “The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.” Zimmerman meant to say 1111 Retreat View Circle. It appears that Trayvon is around the clubhouse when Zimmerman’s call to police begins, at the intersection of Retreat View and Twin Trees. This is consistent with DeeDee’s claims that Trayvon was hanging out under a complex building to take shelter from the rain.

7;10;16pm: Forty-five seconds after the phone call begins, Zimmerman reports that Trayvon is “here now,” indicating possibly that Trayvon was moving while Zimmerman was not. It’s possible Zimmerman’s car was parked at all times during his phone call to the police.

Zimmerman: “He’s here now … he’s just staring.”
7;10;20pm: Zimmerman’s phone call to police indicates that at this time, Trayvon becomes aware of the fact that Zimmerman is watching him. The two stare at one another, and Trayvon keeps walking.

Zimmerman: “Now he’s staring at me.”
7;1;22 – 7;10;35 pm:

Dispatch: “OK, you said that’s 1111 Retreat View or 111?”
Zimmerman: “That’s the clubhouse.”
Dispatch: “He’s near the clubhouse now?”
Zimmerman: “Yeah, now he’s coming toward me. He’s got his hands in his waist band.”
It seems almost certain that Zimmerman was on Twin Trees Ln. at this point, since Trayvon’s path started at the clubhouse at the intersection of Retreat View and Twin Trees, and was heading towards the cut-through (circled in blue, above). It seems plausible that Zimmerman has been sitting in his parked truck, somewhere at the area marked in green in the image below, for the entire first half of his call to police. While watching from his truck, he sees Trayvon leaving the awning (marked in purple) and walking towards the cut-through, which means Trayvon’s path would’ve gone right past the car. Trayvon apparently noticed Zimmerman as he approaches, and keeps on walking.

This possible scenario, however, doesn’t completely fit with the timing from the call with DeeDee, which seems to indicate that Trayvon felt that he was being followed by someone at a time that would seem to be before Zimmerman exits the car — implying that Zimmerman may have been slowly following Trayvon while driving. My guess, though, is that the time stamps for T-Mobile’s call records and for the 911 logs are slightly off from one another, which explains any discrepancy between the two time lines.

7;11;14 pm: At this point, Trayvon appears to have walked past Zimmerman truck, possibly heading towards the cut through, where he would shortly be out of sight of Zimmerman.

Zimmerman: “These assholes. They always get away. … When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in and you go left. Actually, you would go past the clubhouse.”
Dispatcher: “OK, so it’s on the left hand side of the clubhouse?”
Zimmerman: “Yeah. You go in straight through the entrance and then you would go left. You go straight in, don’t turn and make a left.
7;11;42 – 7;11;48pm: There is the sound of a car door opening at this point, immediately after Zimmerman says “he’s running,” and Zimmerman starts huffing; wind noises can be heard, and Zimmerman sounds slightly breathless. Zimmerman is able to see Trayvon plainly enough at this point to determine his direction, and believes he is going for the back entrance:

Zimmerman: ”Shit, he’s running.”
Dispatcher: ”He’s running? Which way is he running?”
Zimmerman: ”Down toward the other [back] entrance of the neighborhood.”
The house where Trayvon is staying is directly between Trayvon’s approximate location at this time and the back entrance to the complex; Trayvon is probably actually running for his house. However, because both the house and the back entrance are to the southeast corner, there are two possible routes that Zimmerman could have seen Trayvon take off towards: (1) Trayvon stays on Twin Trees Ln., bolting south down the road; or (2) Trayvon runs for the cut-through, heading east, so that he can then turn and head south either on Retreat View or through the sidewalk between the rows of houses. Because Zimmerman’s reaction to Trayvon running is to get out of his car, it seems that scenario 2 is more likely — Zimmerman can’t follow in his car, he has to go on foot.

Approx. 7;12pm [+ or - 30 seconds off of 7:12pm, from the time as recorded by Zimmerman's call to police. Exact time unknown]: DeeDee makes another call to Trayvon. He answers, and DeeDee reports that he says to her, “I think this dude is following me.” She says that she tells him “Run!” and that Trayvon responded that he’s not going to run, he’s just going to walk fast.

The timing is close enough to suggest, but not perfect enough to say for sure, that when Zimmerman reports that “[Trayvon's] running,” it’s at the same time as when DeeDee advised him to do just that. If so, it’s possible Trayvon was not telling the complete truth when he told her was just going to “walk fast,” perhaps to seem braver, but in reality had started running. Alternatively, Trayvon really did only start to “walk fast,” but Zimmerman, clearly worried about yet another asshole getting away, interprets this as “running” in his call to dispatch.

7'12;08 pm: After conversation about Zimmerman’s contact details, Zimmerman states to the dispatcher, “he ran.” From the general context, it seems that Zimmerman has now lost sight of Trayvon. The running/wind noises on the recording also cease abruptly at this point, and Zimmerman’s voice evens out. If this is the case, then Zimmerman has stopped his on-foot, running pursuit of Trayvon approximately 20 seconds after he began.

7;12;44pm:

Dispatcher: “Alright, where are you going to meet with [police] at?”
Zimmerman: “Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and, uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left and then go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck.”
I’m unclear where the mailboxes Zimmerman refers to are, but it appears from Google street view that they could be in the awning that Trayvon’s girlfriend says he took shelter in from the rain. If so, however, it’s hard to understand why police would “make a left and then go past the mailboxes.” But it makes more sense than anything else I can find, so it’s possible Zimmerman just misspoke again.

7;12;59: Zimmerman states that his truck is parked at “a cut-through” so he doesn’t know the address. The cut-through is the blue-circled area in the image, so Zimmerman’s truck is presumably in the vicinity of the green circled area. It may have been parked here from the very beginning of his call to police.

7;13;14pm: Zimmerman has lost Trayvon. He doesn’t want to say his address out loud because “I don’t know where this kid is.” Nine seconds later, Zimmerman tells dispatcher to have police call him when they arrive rather than meet at specific place, indicating that Zimmerman plans to keep moving, and doesn’t know where exactly he’ll be when police arrive.

7;13;41pm: Zimmerman’s phone call with dispatch ends.

7.14pm: There is approximately a one minute, thirty second period for which we have very little information about what occurred, from.around 17;14;00 until 17;15;30. Zimmerman apparently keeps searching for Trayvon during this time period, and phone records show that Trayvon is still on the phone with DeeDee. Also during this period of time, neither party moves particularly far from their estimated locations at 7;13;00pm; it appears that they were either (1) walking extremely slowly, (2) had stopped somewhere before resuming movement, or (3) were taking non-direct paths. It’s possible that Trayvon, like Zimmerman when he refused to give his house number out, was worried about the stalker following him home and figuring out where he lived, so Trayvon did not run straight back, instead feinting one way before looping back around. Another possibility is that Trayvon, thinking he’d lost Zimmerman, was dawdling on his walk back home in order to finish his phone call with DeeDee — possibly because Trayvon, like most 17 year olds, generally prefers to have his phone calls with his significant other out of ear shot of his parents. The other two possibilities are that (1) Trayvon bolted on a pathway in the wrong direction from his house, in order to escape Zimmerman, after Trayvon initially started running/walked fast; he was then making his way back to his correct route when he encountered Zimmerman again; or (2) Trayvon, still on the phone with DeeDee, had in fact managed to start running on a direct path towards home, but decides to loop back to find Zimmerman again, in order to start a fight with the guy who dared to follow him.

Some small, extremely circumstantial evidence to suggest why Zimmerman may have been expecting Trayvon to run out the back entrance, and why Zimmerman may have tried to cut Trayvon off from going in that direction, comes from the police call logs. We know from Zimmerman’s previous calls to police that he had on at least two prior occasions called in to report that suspicious black males were hanging around the “back entrance” of the housing complex. (See pgs. 39-40 of the police dispatch logs.) On both those occasions, as with the call he made about Trayvon, Zimmerman stated that he believed the person he was watching had committed recent break ins in the neighborhood. On the two prior occasions, Zimmerman reported that the suspicious persons were at or headings towards the back entrance, and on one occasion, Zimmerman advised dispatch that the “subjects will run into the subdivision next to this complex,” and advised that law enforcement enter through the back entrance to meet him. It seems possible that if Zimmerman was going to follow Trayvon and lost him, his assumption would be Trayvon would be heading in that direction.

Approx. 7;15;30 – 7;15;45pm: Zimmerman and Trayvon encounter each other for the final time, in the area circled in red in the diagram above. At this point, all evidence from eye witnesses and police reports indicates that a fight between the two began and ended there, and that the parties did not substantially change position during the course of the struggle. Reports on the exact location of Trayvon’s body have varied, but it has been established it was somewhere in the grass in the row between the houses, closer to the north side than the south. For purposes of establishing how far and in which direction the fight may have migrated during the course of the encounter, it would be interesting to know where Trayvon’s headset was found (as well as the skittles and iced tea bottle!), but so far I have not seen any reliable reports about its location.

7.15 – 7.16pm, DeeDee’s version of events: Trayvon tells DeeDee that he thinks he has lost the dude that was following him. DeeDee then hears voices, as if Trayvon and his pursuer have run into each other again. She says something like the following exchanged occurred between the two individuals:

Trayvon: “Why are you following me?”
Zimmerman: “What are you doing here?”
At that point, it sounds to DeeDee as if one party shoves the other. DeeDee thinks she hears Trayvon’s headset fall off, and the phone call cuts out at approximately 7:16pm, four minutes after it starts. It is my suspicion that the T-Mobile records are about 30 seconds slower than the time kept by the police dispatch’s clock– which would mean that the phone call started at 7;11;30, and ended at 7;15;30 pm.

Further analysis of events:
Minute-by-Minute Timeline of Trayvon Martin’s Death | The View From LL2

----------


## ENT

*"Stand Your Ground" law.*
An interpretation.


SANFORD, FL -- 
George Zimmerman, the accused killer of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in Sanford Florida, was released from jail on bail Monday.
It appears that Florida’s "stand your ground" law will feature heavily in the upcoming trial.

“The key issue in the Trayvon Martin case will be what force did Trayvon exert that caused George Zimmerman to react that way? And I’ve said to several media outlets my gut feeling is that at some point in time I think George Zimmerman is going to make a statement that Trayvon was reaching for his gun, that he was under duress and once that gun comes into play, then *we have deadly force being applied against deadly force."*
FL. &#39;Stand your Ground&#39; law expert speaks on Zimmerman case : News : MySouthwestGA.com

----------


## guyinthailand

Ent, did you bother listening to the video OhOh posted (above and below)?  Don't you have anything to say about what Professor Dershowitz is saying?   He says there's no way 2nd degree murder can come of this,  and probably not manslaughter, either. And he accuses the prosecutor of a crime.

Your long meandering posts are irrelevant to the case and to the issues Dershowitz discusses. ("apparently" this, "circumstantial" that, "he said she said" "as if")

I think your long posts about timelines, etc are evidence of your denial of what's going down.




> Interesting video/interview with someone who actually knows a little about US law.
> 
> Dershowitz: Prosecutor in Trayvon Martin case overreached with murder charge | Fox News

----------


## ENT

> Ent, did you bother listening to the video OhOh posted (above and below)?  Don't you have anything to say about what Professor Dershowitz is saying?   He says there's no way 2nd degree murder can come of this,  and probably not manslaughter, either. And he accuses the prosecutor of a crime.
> 
> Your long meandering posts are irrelevant to the case and to the issues Dershowitz discusses. ("apparently" this, "circumstantial" that, "he said she said" "as if")
> 
> I think your long posts about timelines, etc are evidence of your denial of what's going down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wasn't replying to Ohoh's post, simply posting an article that I read, and I think that you ought to read it in it's entirety.
I have read Dershowitz's comments and theory in the article.

The Dershowitz comments are an argument proposing the invalidity of SA Corby's affidavit for prosecution.

His argument may be refuted on the grounds that his reference to the "bloody photographs", that he cited as a point against her application, were not even published at the time in question. They did not exist in the public knowledge for SA Corby to consider.

Thus his argument is void of fact to pertinent reason in his postulation that SA Corby perjured herself in establishing just cause for prosecution against Zimmerman.

Dershowitz is fishing.

----------


## S Landreth

Zimmermans lawyer: Donations to website totaled $200,000

The defense lawyer for George Zimmerman said Thursday night that his client had received about $200,000 through donations to his website.

Zimmerman, a 28-year-old neighborhood watch volunteer in Sanford, near Orlando, fatally shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin of Miami Gardens on Feb. 26, after confronting the teen, whom he believed to be suspicious. Trayvon was not armed.

Sanford police cited Floridas Stand Your Ground self-defense law in not initially charging Zimmerman with killing Trayvon. Angela Corey, a special prosecutor appointed by Gov. Rick Scott, earlier this month charged Zimmerman with second-degree murder.

Thursday night, Zimmermans attorney, Mark OMara, told CNNs Anderson Cooper that at first he had been told that Zimmerman had two accounts: one with $700, another with about $2,000.

But while trying to shut down all of Zimmermans Internet presence, his client asked him what to do with his PayPal accounts.

Days before Corey filed her charges, a website called TheRealGeorgeZimmerman.com sprang up. The website, since removed, said visitors could use a PayPal link to donate money to Zimmerman.

OMara told Cooper that the account contained $200,000 and $204,000.

Asked by Cooper whether a higher bond might have been set for Zimmerman if that amount had been known, OMara said maybe. He added that he would let the court know officially about the money.

But, OMara added, that hes not sure that Zimmerman even realized the money was available to him. After Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester set bond at $150,000, it was Zimmermans family who cobbled together the money for his release.

OMara said he does intend to create a legal defense fund for Zimmerman, and has already received checks from people who want to help.

His client will need the money. OMara estimated his legal expenses could add up to $1 million.

You can really go through a lot of money on a case like this, he said.

guyinthailand, did you?: Zimmerman's lawyer: Donations to website totaled $200,000 - Trayvon Martin - MiamiHerald.com

----------


## ENT

That's a lot of loot to have hanging aound "unknown" by Zimmerman and O'Mara.
If O'Mara was half competent he would have kept track of everything pertaining to the case.

He was quick to jump on Zimmerman's ex-lawyers and their references to their former client, but was able to be conveniently "unaware" of the money in Zimmerman's appeal fund. 

Zimmerman would have known the money was there, but didn't disclose the fact when bail was applied for, which is in fact why it was set at a very low $150,000, because he claimed that he was unemployed, had no income, neither did his family.
This was not the case, as he was holding close to a quarter of a million dollars in loose cash!

Slippery chap, this O'Mara.
So is Zimmerman.

----------


## DrAndy

> As has been stated before a lot of Perry Masons on this thread. None of it matters at this point. It will wind up in the hands of a jury of his peers and they will decide. All of this is just bluster.


 
exactly


but some of the posters here like a nice gossip

----------


## OhOh

Unfortunately the ramifications of this trial, as some have accepted, will not stop at the jury's determination. The media and the prosecution have whipped this story way above it's real place.

They will both fully exploit the events, for financial or career status, which will unfold after the trial and should be held accountable now before it grows larger.

But hey, c'est la vie.

----------


## OhOh

> They did not exist in the public knowledge for SA Corby to consider.


They may not have been in public knowledge but somebody took them, presumably at the scene of the incident and the injuries commented on in the medical reports of both the suspect and the victim. They would have been "evidence" that the prosecutors would have been aware of prior to making a go/no go press charge decision along with the severity of the charge.

Or are you suggesting that the press withheld these photos, if they took them, from the prosecution or that the medical reports have been doctored  :Smile: ?

----------


## ENT

SA Corey made her decision to charge Zimmerman before 12th April.
He appeared on 13th April to face charges.

The pics emerged after that date, but before 20th April when Zimmerman appeared for his bail hearing where the pic was mentioned in court by his father.
The whole process was out of Corby's hands by the time it had gone to trial.

If the press had them long before,why didn't they release them then?
According to them, the witness had only just decided to release the pic himself, and he most likely was a cop or a medic attending the Martin murder scene..

The medical reports haven't surfaced either, only in reference by Zimmerman's lawyer at his bail hearing.
Zimmerman's brother claimed that the report would prove Zimmerman's claims of a battering, but so far as I know nothing has been published about it, and Galbraith, the prosecutor said he'd not seen them either, so the defence volunteered to hand them to the court.

They'll make interesting reading.

----------


## OhOh

You are surely not implying that the prosecutor decided to charge without reading the medical reports of both the victim and the suspect.

If she didn't read the reports how did she know the victim was dead? she obviously, to me anyway, read a report stating, as a fact, that a body with a bullet hole had been found. But not a report on the suspect stating, as a fact, and maybe photographed, of head wounds?

Or maybe she decided to prosecute based on TV news reports :Confused:

----------


## ENT

Don't be daft.

What gives you the idea that SA Corby didn't read any reports?
I don't know what she read or did not read.

She obviously read and discussed enough information to decide to lay a charge of murder.

----------


## OhOh

> Don't be daft.
> 
> What gives you the idea that SA Corby didn't read any reports?
> I don't know what she read or did not read.
> 
> She obviously read and discussed enough information to decide to lay a charge of murder.


Yet you state:

"SA Corey made her decision to charge Zimmerman before 12th April.
He appeared on 13th April to face charges. The pics emerged after that date, but before 20th April"

and 

" to the "bloody photographs", that he cited as a point against her application, were not even published at the time in question. They did not exist in the public knowledge for SA Corby to consider."

----------


## guyinthailand

> Zimmerman’s lawyer: Donations to website totaled $200,000
> 
>   guyinthailand, did you?:


Now why would I want to donate any money to someone the media, Spike Lee, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and the New Black Panthers  have already presumed is guilty because he is not black?  

Yeah, I think I'll donate to Spike Lee so he has enough mobile phone minutes to keep tweeting Zimmerman's address so the lynch mob can find him.

Or, I could donate to the New Black Panthers so they can increase their reward to anyone who can be the first to lynch Zimmerman.

----------


## robuzo

This is totally unfair. A black man in America could never raise $200K+ just by shooting an unarmed 17-year-old white boy. 

My thoughts run pretty much parallel to John Cole's:
Balloon Juice » Blog Archive » Wingnut Welfare is the Shit
The story is over whether he deceived the judge by claiming he had no money, thus getting himself really low bail, when he actually had 200k in his paypal account. Talk about that if you want, but what I find shocking is that there are enough sociopaths out there that would donate 200 grand to a killer.

Shoot a black kid, set up a blog, make a quarter million. Our society is sick.
---
The only thing I don't get is why Cole finds that "shocking." He lives in West Va., which I would have expected in itself would expose one to level of racism at least approximate to that found on, for example, this thread, albeit maybe not quite as concentrated.

----------


## leemo

> Don't be daft.
> 
> What gives you the idea that SA Corby didn't read any reports?
> I don't know what she read or did not read.
> 
> She obviously read and discussed enough information to decide to lay a charge of murder.


...after 6 weeks of being harangued by the Sharptons and Jacksons demanding "justice" (but we'll settle for blood), Panthers offering a bounty, an MSNBC anchor referring to the gangsta as the poor murdered baby, and the usual rush of black advocacy groups howling for the racist Zimmerman's head. Got the picture yet?


Meanwhile some interesting background from Reuters {George Zimmerman: Prelude to a shooting}, though I guess it can be brushed aside as irrelevant by those that feel uncomfortable with harsh truths.  

George Zimmerman: Prelude to a shooting | Reuters

----------


## ENT

Mark O'Mara's as slippery as an eel!
He earlier claimed that Zimmerman hadn't a clue about the $200,000 (+) in donations made to his client's defence fund.
Now the judge is raising his eyebrows after details of how much the family _really_ had to cover the bond came to light.

SANFORD, Fla. (AP) — *Calling it an "oversight,"* George Zimmerman's attorney said Friday the neighborhood watch volunteer did not disclose that a website had raised more than $200,000 for his defense, even though his family told the judge they would have trouble coming up with his bond.

"Quite honestly, with everything he is going through over the past several weeks, if that is the only oversight committed, then we'll deal with it," said Zimmerman's attorney, Mark O'Mara.

O'Mara claimed the family was not trying to be deceptive, but Florida Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester said he wanted to know more about the money. O'Mara doesn't think the judge will change Zimmerman's bond in light of the new information.
Judge wants to know more about Zimmerman finances - Yahoo! News

So the Zimmerman's et al lied to the court again, first saying that they'd have trouble coming up with the bond, when in fact they had $50,000 surplus to the whole sum, then O'Mara claiming that this was an oversight!

How the hell do you *not notice close on a quarter million bucks* sitting in an account that you monitor every day?

Unless of course they were all telling lies to eachother as well as to the courts and the public.

They're a dodgy crew allright.

I wonder how the judge is going to deal with this.
Is he going to say "OK, it was an oversight, you couldn't possibly have known about the money until after bond was set".  

Or is he going to say something like, "Right ya bunch of sharks, since ya didn't know about the loot, ya won't miss it, so I'll fine ya $150,000.
Easy comes, easy goes boys, ya won't even know it's gone!"

----------


## guyinthailand

> Meanwhile some interesting background from Reuters {George Zimmerman: Prelude to a shooting}, though I guess it can be brushed aside as irrelevant by those that feel uncomfortable with harsh truths.  
> 
> George Zimmerman: Prelude to a shooting | Reuters


Leemo is right.

Read this.

click here: George Zimmerman: Prelude to a shooting | Reuters

----------


## ENT

Read it.
Now read this.

A history of Zimmerman's calls to the cops from 2004 onwards.

http://www.politicalforum.com/curren...plete-log.html

What sort of a nutter is he?
He pestered the cops continually, once over a pot-hole on the road, another time about people at a house party he "didn't like", several about suspicious folks wandering around, particulaly black males, another time about someone's open garage door.

The fruitloop makes ya wanna weep!

And his ambition was to become a judge!

He was also a part time bouncer at house parties, happy enough to intimidate anyone he "didn't like".

----------


## guyinthailand

Ent, you're a fascist: because you exaggerate and mislead in order to inflame hatred where it isn't called for and you never have any proof to back up your claims

Zimmerman didn't 'pester' the cops.  He was trying to address the incredible crime in his neighborhood where even the blacks admitted (see article link in my post above), even they admitted it was blacks committing the crimes.

If he 'intimidated' people , ent, then show your proof.  Otherwise you're just being a fascistic idiot waving papers around as if they are 'proof'.

Like all your other statements that have been shown to be false, this one is, too. (You said Zimmerman made 'false claims". Wrong.  You said his injuries were 'minor'.  Wrong.  You said Zimmerman following Martin was equivalent to 'attacking'.  Wrong.)

Your saying look at his call record to the cops..  Wow, Ent, you've just  blown this case wide open!   Yes, Ent has proven beyond all doubt that  zimmerman is a murderer.  Yeah, someone trying to deal with incredible  crime right there in his neighborhood  by calling the cops is 'pestering' them.   

Why on earth would Zimmerman want to call the cops if he sees some suspicious people in his neighborhood?  

He should call Ent instead!

Ent: wrong, wrong, wrong...time after time after time.

Your credibility is next to zero.

----------


## ENT

Utter tripe.

I don't know why you want to make such a public fool of yourself.
Yup, not only I, but many others consider Zimmerman's injuries as minor, just read the references posted.
Zimmerman's calls to the cops were about trifling matters freaking him out, totally neurotic.
You reckon he was dealing with incredible crime, like a pot-hole in the road, someone else wearing a t-shirt, garbage on the dtreet, what an incredible crime wave!
The idiot even called the cops when his landlord came to ask him for the rent!
Intimidation? You bet he intimidated!
He intimidated his ex-girl friend, two cops and Martin, then the arsehole ended up killing him.
Nice guy.

You're a stupid little whiner, gayinthailand.
As the facts slowly piece together and Zimmerman and his lawyer get shown up to be no more than a couple of slime balls, you start screeching again. 

Go boil your arse, ya little redneck.

You and any one else can read my posts just to see how stupid you really are.

----------


## ENT

*More about the rip off bond deal that Zimmerman and his cohort O'Mara perpetrated*

SANFORD, Fla. (AP) — A judge is considering whether to raise or revoke the bond for George Zimmerman after his lawyer told the judge a website raised $200,000 for the defense.

Mark O'Mara told the judge Friday that Zimmerman's family hadn't told him about the money before his client was given $150,000 bond.

Florida Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester says he wants to know more about the money before he decides whether to adjust the bond. The judge will make a decision on the bond at a later date.

Judge considers adjusting Zimmerman's bond - Yahoo! News

Let's hope that justice takes its course and the bond is raised, while O'Mara is censured by the court and someone in the law society sees grounds to investigate him for unprofessional conduct, the slime ball.

----------


## guyinthailand

Ent, everytime you open your mouth you stick your fascist foot in it further.

You continue to spout unsubstantiated bullshit, such as he 'intimidated' his girlfriend and the cops (restraining orders by husband and wife; a tussle with cops as a drunken 20 year old in a bar--wow, how horrible)

Ya got nothin, Ent.  Ya got nothin.  That's why you continue spouting your fascist allegations which are unsubstantiated.

the entire thread you been doing this.

 "zimmerman made false  claims"  *A lie by Ent*.

"Zimmerman's injuries were minor". * A lie by Ent.*

"Zimmerman is a racist"  *A lie by Ent.*

"zimmerman has rippling muscles" *A lie by Ent*.

"Zimmerman's acts were premeditated".  *A lie by Ent.*

"Powder burns on Martin prove Zimmerman is a bad man" *A lie by Ent.*

Your trying to get me upset by calling me 'gay' about a hundred times, which only revealed you projecting your closeted feelings.  

Your saying Zimmerman's "following" Martin gives Martin the right to attack Zimmerman.  *A lie by Ent*.

Your posting the NBC smear campaign to make it appear as if Zimmerman was racist. *a lie by Ent. 
* 
Now you're posting "timelines" and gossip about his website raising money for his defense.

Who cares? !!  What matters is: was it self-defense on Zimmerman's part or on Martin's.

You're grasping at straws, Ent.

Keep grasping, Ent.  Keep posting this IRRELEVANT B.S.

It's amusing to watch you squirm like this.

----------


## ENT

Every single line in your shoolgirly rant above is just laughable!
If you gave the links to my posts to back up your claims, someone might believe you, but you can't, because they don't exist.

Ah well, you're obviously losing the plot again 
You are some poor sick lizard, take a pill and a cup of tea and get some sleep.
You'll feel better in the morning.

----------


## guyinthailand

Sigh...bEnt, don't you remember I already did that?  Your Alzheimer's is showing.  I posted all your ridiculous claims directly from your quotes.  And now, all of a sudden, you can't remember!  How convenient!    A great thing about Teakdoor is all anyone has to do is look back through the written record to see who has said what.  

You've said all the things I said you said.  Everything is there in the record for all to see.

You are still a fascist liar.

Keep squirming and...I know you'll keep trying to hang Zimmerman without a fair trial.  After all, that is what fascists like you do.

----------


## ENT

Quote the refs, even quote the post you gave the refs in, take your pick.
You can't remember them either, because they don't exist.

Now go and have a little lie down.   :Smile: 
After you've looked up the definition of the word "fascist".

----------


## ENT

^^ and ^^^^     :smiley laughing: 

The worse it gets for Zimmerman, the crazier your posts!

----------


## ENT

*Prosecutors want George Zimmerman's lawyer to stop talking to the press.*

Prosecutor Bernie De La Rionda said, “There’s been too much talking to the media.”
Defense attorney Mark O’Mara has had an active presence in the media since taking over the case, most recently appearing on CNN’s AC360 Thursday night. 
O’Mara responded, saying he has only discussed the facts of the case one time..... Zimmerman’s trial is one of the biggest media events in the world, and that he thinks it is almost impossible to not discuss certain matters with the media. 
"........there is extraordinary amount of discussion by other people..... and it is difficult, because we don't have a lot of control. We cannot deny this case is the most significant media event in the country and world. So we cannot stand mute about those matters outside the courtroom that need to be addressed," said O’Mara.
Lester said he believes attorneys on both sides have conducted themselves appropriately so far, and decided not to issue a gag order.

*Discovery documents*
During Friday’s hearing, attorneys also talked about unsealing discovery documents that include witness interviews, the autopsy, or other forensic evidence.  O’Mara says he's concerned about releasing names of witnesses to the public, because some of them are afraid for their safety. *Lester refused to issue a blanket order on that,* saying....deal with documents and names on a case-by-case basis.... He also said that *he was more worried about the witnesses who want to be on the TV all the time than the witnesses who wanted to hide.*

*The money*
O’Mara also brought up the fact that Zimmerman has raised a little more than $200,000 through his website. *Zimmerman shut down the website under O’Mara’s direction.* Prosecutors argued that *Zimmerman’s bond should be increased,* because these *funds weren’t disclosed at the bond hearing.* Lester said that before he made a ruling on this issue, he wanted *O’Mara to provide the court more information* about the creation of the site and the funds raised.
Gag order denied in Zimmerman case | HLNtv.com

* Mark O'Mara told CNN...that George Zimmerman told him Wednesday of the donations*
"He asked me what to do with his PayPal accounts and I asked him what he was talking about," O'Mara told Anderson Cooper. "And he said those were the accounts that had the money from the website he had. And there was about 200, $204,000 that had come in to date."
O'Mara had said earlier this month that he believed Zimmerman had no money.                                                                                              Donations pour in to Trayvon Martin's killer - CNN.com

George Zimmerman's lawyer to attend court hearing (Friday) about $200K raised by website for defense fund
...... said his client's bail might have been set higher if a judge had known about $200,000 raised by a website. 

Friday's hearing was initially scheduled to deal with several media organizations, including The Associated Press, asking the judge to unseal documents from Zimmerman's court file, but *the donations have now overshadowed that issue.*

The attorney for Trayvon Martin's family says Zimmerman should be back in jail because during a recent bond hearing he did not report to a judge that he had $204,000.
"They tried to portray themselves as indigent that they did not have any money," said Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump. "We think the court should revoke his bond immediately and he should be held accountable for misleading the court."

The website, created almost two weeks ago .... has since been shut down but O'Mara said he'll likely start a new defense fund for Zimmerman.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57422849-504083/trayvon-martin-case-george-zimmermans-lawyer-to-attend-court-hearing-about-$200k-raised-by-website-for-defense-fund/

O'Mara's claim that he wasn't aware of the funds entering Zimmerman's pay pal account show that he's either blatantly lying or that Zimmerman deliberately withheld the information in applying for bail.

"What are you talking about?" says O'Mara to Zimmerman when he's told about the money!
As if he hadn't heard of the appeal fund splashed all over the media, and him a "media personality" lawyer and commentator?
O'Mara's a real slippery spin doctor, but I think he's shown his hand on this little wriggle.

Either way, Judge Lester is going to have to moderate his decision concerning Zimmerman's bail.
He's also going to have to at least censure O'Mara as well.
If he does nothing, he'll be seen as weak and potentially biased.

Re-arresting Zimmerman, raising the bond, fining Zimmerman and censuring O'Mara ae some of his options.

----------


## guyinthailand

I realize it may be beyond your capabilities, but maybe you could put a line underneath where the article ends and where your peanut gallery comments begin.. otherwise you make it seem as if your peanut gallery comments are part of the article.

typical bEnt distortion.

----------


## ENT

My comments follow _after_ the referenced article excerpts.

The only distortion evidenced is your mind and its comments.

----------


## ENT

* Judge: Zimmerman Can Keep $200K*
A Florida judge ruled Friday that George Zimmerman, charged with second-degree murder in the death of Trayvon Martin, could keep his $200,000 raised by supporters—despite having not disclosed it previously. Zimmerman’s attorney Mark O’Mara said that Zimmerman had experienced issues with his Twitter and Facebook accounts and may shut down his donation setup for fear of copycats making money off his cause. Prosecutors had asked that Zimmerman's $150,000 bond be increased, but *Judge Kenneth Lester said he is worried about revealing the donors’ names—and is not sure he has the authority to increase the bond.*

Cheat Sheet - The Daily Beast

An appropriate reference above, "cheat sheet".

Judge Lester's showing a definite bias towards Zimmerman's position.

After giving him bail on a surprisingly small bond of $150,000, where normally someone on a charge of murder wouldn't even get bail, he now admits that he doesn't even know if he has the authority to increase the bond.

His lame excuse that he's worried about revealing donors' names is an obvious red herring.

What level of patent and admitted incompetence does he have to display before he is asked to step down?
A judge not sure of his authority?
I've never heard of such a thing, except in soap operas.
Why claim the title of judge if he doesn't even know the extent to which he can rule in a case?

What his statement really means is that he can't grasp the import of the matter due to some unspoken consideration and that he's literally abnegating his responsibility.

----------


## ENT

*Judge Kenneth Lester.*


*He is consistent* and a tough sentencer, .....*very in control of his courtroom,* very straightforward."

In court, Lester is *very by-the-book*. He calls defendants "sir," and expects people to be on time. On Jan. 18, 2005, he had at least three defendants taken into custody when they showed up for court late.

The judge's daughter, Alexandra Lester, 26, a member of the Florida Bar, said she has *never saw her father agonize over a ruling*.

*"He basically told me it should not be hard to make the right decision if you follow the law,"* she said.

George Zimmerman new judge: Ken Lester named new judge in Zimmerman murder case - Orlando Sentinel


Just in the last week or so Judge Lester has shown that he is neither *consistent or very by the book,* and_ shows his agonising_ over making a _right decision,_ also by the book.

How can he be in control of his courtroom when he admits that he's unsure of his authority?
Consistent?  Obviously not, except in his bias.
So much for his public profile.

----------


## Boon Mee

It's not like some folks really _want_ to lynch Zimmerman or what?

Miami TV Reporter Fired For Separate But Similar Edit Of Zimmermans 911 Call.

----------


## ENT

I don't know of anyone calling for Zimmerman to be lynched for killing Trayvon Martin.

That emotionally charged description of how he'll possibly be punished if found guilty is widely used by the pro-Zimmerman camp to whip up support for him.

When was the last time anyone got lynched in the US?
Probably when the KKK hung a black man.

The media distortion of this case has occurred, but then, O'Mara is defending his own actions in distorting the facts by continuing with media profiling to support Zimmerman's case, and by setting up a new fund collecting campaign.
His continuing public appearances on the news and at interviews to explain his actions and make excuses for "oversights" that both he, Zimmerman and his wife have made over undeclared funds is becoming pathetic.

In court, the family claimed to be broke, when in fact they had not only been living off donations from the pay pal account which stood at $150,000 at the bond hearing, then increased by a further $54,000 in less than a week, but Zimmerman apparently had other accounts holding donations the contents of which have not yet been revealed!

O'Mara said that he'd hardly discussed those accounts or the money with Zimmerman.
A lawyer not knowing his client's financial status before taking on his case? Tell me another one, that claim's laughable!
Yet O'Mara seems overly concerned in handling his client's public image as he insists on monitoring Zimmerman's internet, facebook and twitter accounts as well as his appeal fund, closing the old one and setting up a new one.
He's starting to show his talents as a PR manager rather than a lawyer.

His excuse for this bizarre behaviour is the bad press going down for Zimmerman and he simply wants to balance"" it.
O'Mara's a commensurate TV spin doctor, and as such he is no more reliable than any of the media attempting to get publicity and sell a story for some big bucks.

So who's distorting the truth in this case, putting a nice spin on some glaring inconsistencies?
None other than Mark O'Mara.

----------


## guyinthailand

> I don't know of anyone calling for Zimmerman to be lynched for killing Trayvon Martin.  When was the last time anyone got lynched in the US?




bENT, the term 'lynch' is a metaphor.  Do you even know what that is?  The fact that you think people meant this literally is a reflection of your cognitive abilities, or lack thereof.

The term 'lynch' is being used in reference to people such as yourself who have, in their minds, already convicted Zimmerman without a fair trial.

But what people like you do is worse than just convicting in your own mind.  *You post lies, misinformation and innuendo* in your quest to 'lynch' Zimmerman.

----------


## ENT

^ You iz a very sick lizard, gayinthailand, you are in denial of reality.
Just read carefully and don't be such a girl.

----------


## leemo

> I don't know of anyone calling for Zimmerman to be lynched for killing Trayvon Martin.


Not even the Panthers? You obviously have selective reading habits, but don't worry about it.




> That emotionally charged description of how he'll possibly be punished if found guilty is widely used by the pro-Zimmerman camp to whip up support for him.


Get real. In the unlikely event of conviction Zimmerman will almost certainly be cleared on appeal, but either way his best move to avoid being killed is to disappear and preferably outside the country before, after or as the cities burn. 




> When was the last time anyone got lynched in the US?
> Probably when the KKK hung a black man.


Wrong again. Aside from incitement to murder and civil disorder from the Panthers and other righteous quarters, Zimmerman has been lynched daily from day zero by the media, blacks and black advocacy groups, the rabid Left and even some forum nuts. What's more he should think himself lucky to be a minority member and just white enough to be given that evil tag for political aims, otherwise all right thinking white folks would be expected to stand in line with heads bowed for collective redress.




> In court, the family claimed to be broke, when in fact they had not only been living off donations from the pay pal account which stood at $150,000 at the bond hearing, then increased by a further $54,000 in less than a week, but Zimmerman apparently had other accounts holding donations the contents of which have not yet been revealed!


The judge is aware of this and has made no changes to bail conditions. Take it up with him.




> O'Mara said that he'd hardly discussed those accounts or the money with Zimmerman.
> A lawyer not knowing his client's financial status before taking on his case? Tell me another one, that claim's laughable!


Lawyers know how these things work, probably better than you. He gets paid by the client, and or from the public purse, and or contributions from what's left of a mad world going proudly madder, or a mix. And regardless of payment, such a case is priceless on any CV.

----------


## ENT

You're using an emotionally charged word "lynch" to whip up support for Zimmerman, simply an exaggeration to express your fear.

"Lynching is the illegal execution of an accused person by a mob. The term lynching probably derived from the name Charles Lynch (1736-96), a justice of the peace who administered rough justice in Virginia. Lynching was originally a system of punishment used by whites against African American slaves."

Is there some sort of a pose out to kill the guy, or something?
First I've heard of it, if there is one.

What makes you think he won't get convicted?
Got something we don't know about, like some proof that Zimmerman acted in self defence, or any info about his head injuries?

----------


## leemo

> You're using an emotionally charged word "lynch" to whip up support for Zimmerman, simply an exaggeration to express your fear.





> I don't know of anyone calling for Zimmerman to be lynched for killing Trayvon Martin.


I see...anything more to add, or shall we leave it at that?





> "Lynching is the illegal execution of an accused person by a mob. The term lynching probably derived from the name Charles Lynch (1736-96), a justice of the peace who administered rough justice in Virginia. Lynching was originally a system of punishment used by whites against African American slaves."


Thanks, now I know it's only a myth that the media and public opinion and forum nuts routinely lynch those that upset the preferred narrative.




> Is there some sort of a pose out to kill the guy, or something?
> First I've heard of it, if there is one.


Not a posse, just a bounty, but that seems to be ok with you. The trial is not about justice but politics and either result leaves Zimmerman as a marked man, but this may sink in with you only after he is killed. Is that too harsh a claim for you to cope with? 

Try to set aside for a moment everything you think you know about the actual incident, and ask yourself why investigators found nothing with which to charge Zimmerman for 6 weeks. Then consider why the machine suddenly came alive only after prominent individuals and pressure groups (blacks, black leaders, black advocacy groups etc) demanded 'justice'? 




> What makes you think he won't get convicted?
> Got something we don't know about, like some proof that Zimmerman acted in self defence, or any info about his head injuries?


Who is the 'we' you refer to? I have no insider info, just something that tells me it won't be easy to prove what was in Zimmerman's head when he pulled the trigger. You seem to have already decided, so all the prosecution needs is another 11 ENTs to shorten the trial and send Zimmerman to prison until his appeal is heard. 

But in our mad world both prosecution and defence could enjoy their moments of glory. A conviction would have one preening till it is overturned, while an acquittal makes the prosecution the innocent victim of jury bias and our friendly Jacksons and Sharptons plead for calm whilst nodding their mindless warriors into frenzy.

Forget justice, read politics.

----------


## sabang

> Forget justice, read politics.


If you are an American, shame on you.

----------


## ENT

What sort of stupid place do you keep your brains, leemo?

You and others like you are trying to turn the whole issue into a racist debate.
Your  use of Zimmerman as an icon for white supremacist bigotry is as unfair and unjust as the use of Martin for black racist bigotry.

attemting to discuss this issue with people like you means having to plough through a heap of emotional rhetoric about race or social differences.
From the tone of your collective voices it's easy to tell that you're all a bunch of really screwed up Sepos!

You see ghosts where none exist and turn opposing views into lynchings.
I honestly think that you've been raised on a diet of cheap Hollywood movies and macho crap.

Grow up will you and try to be rational and give your views in a more reasonable form.

----------


## S Landreth

George Zimmermans crude Myspace page from 2005 uncovered: George Zimmerman's crude Myspace page from 2005 uncovered - Trayvon Martin - MiamiHerald.com

While it includes photos of an ethically diverse group of friends, the murder defendants 2005 web presence includes disparaging remarks about Mexicans.

SANFORD -- Just as George Zimmermans attorney pushes the envelope of accepted legal practices by launching a social media operation for his client, another site has popped up that belonged to the controversial former neighborhood watch volunteer who now faces a murder charge.

This one is a 7-year old Myspace page called only to be king again that makes disparaging comments about Mexicans. The Web page, which his attorney confirmed Tuesday is legitimate, makes reference to 2005 criminal cases and a brush in court with a woman who Zimmerman called his ex-hoe.

There are several photos of Zimmerman on the page, and in one of them he appears to be wearing the same orange polo shirt that he donned in his 2005 police mug shot. Zimmerman used the name Joe G. on the site, and posted a biography that mentions he grew up in Manassas, Va., had recently opened an insurance business and missed all his friends.

Last month, a Zimmerman Myspace page under the username datniggytb was taken down.

The Joe G page includes a missive written in street slang.

I dont miss driving around scared to hit mexicans walkin on the side of the street, soft ass wanna be thugs messin with peoples cars when they aint around (what are you provin, that you can dent a car when no ones watchin) dont make you a man in my book, the 2005 Myspace page said. Workin 96 hours to get a decent pay check, gettin knifes pulled on you by every mexican you run into!

Another line suggested his friends went to jail and did not rat him out. They do a year and dont ever open thier [sic] mouth to get my ass pinched.

The pictures posted on the page including several with an ethnically diverse group of friends. The blog section boasts about having two felonies knocked down to misdemeanors and describes a court battle with an ex-girlfriend. Zimmerman faced two felonies in 2005 for obstructing justice and battery on a law enforcement officer, but the cases were reduced to misdemeanor simple battery, and he was left with no criminal conviction on his record.

Zimmermans attorney, Mark OMara, confirmed the page was his clients, and that it was abandoned in 2005.

The site was the latest discovery in an ongoing social media battle in the Zimmerman case. The Feb. 26 shooting of Miami Gardens teen Trayvon Martin received its first groundswell of attention on social media platforms, which were later used to portray the victim in a negative light. Now the defense is embracing Twitter, Facebook and a blog to provide forums for discussion  and to raise money.

the entire story in the link above

----------


## ENT

^ Your post only adds to my opinion  that O'Mara's a spin doctor for Zimmerman.

If you've got no logic behind you, then yelling loud enough is sure to get the attention.
That is exactly what O'Mara's doing. He's trying to get as much attention as possible, his way, to start influencing public opinion ahead of the trial.
By doing so, O'Mara hopes that enough people will become sympathetic towards Zimmerman and if the case goes to trial, a jury selection is going to become difficult.

A golden rule amongst court lawyers is that if you have no case to stand on, then use drama to sway the jury.
There's bound to be a few in the jury who'll want to go along with what the neighbour thinks rather than come to their own decision on the innocence or guilt of a person.

So far, O'Mara is showing himself weak on the defence but strong on the publicity stakes.
If he was quietly confident of Zimmerman's innocence, he wouldn't be making such a loud noise on the media.
He's already told Zimmerman to cool it as he stage manages the affair.

O'Mara ought to cool it too. I'm surprised that the judge didn't order a non publication ruling in the case.
Usually in a fair trial all matters pertaining to it are _sub judice_, thus can _not_ be discussed openly before trial.
O'Mara's conduct is totally unprofessional as a lawyer. The US Law Society (if there is such a thing there)ought to look into this matter.

The prosecution is keeping really quiet about things. This tells me that they have something, they don't need to make a song and dance about it to nail Zimmerman.

O'Mara et al, on the other hand, are not quietly confident, preferring to pre-empt opinion over the deal in an attempt to sway public opinion.

----------


## ENT

*THE TWO EDGED SWORD OF JUSTICE*

*Georgie's past comes back to haunt him*.
A MySpace page kept by George Zimmerman in 2005 has emerged, revealing the neighborhood watch volunteer made slurs against Mexicans and admitted to being homesick after moving to Florida.
The page shows Zimmerman had black friends as a young man and missed the people he left back in Manassas, Virginia, where he grew up. 
He also discusses his legal problems that came after he was arrested in a college bar in Orlando in 2005. 

'I dont miss driving around scared to hit mexicans walkin on the side of the street, soft a** wanna be thugs messin with peoples cars when they aint around (what are you provin, that you can dent a car when no ones watchin),' he writes.
Zimmerman himself is half-Hispanic; his mother is Peruvian and his father is white.
*
The new MySpace page gives an unfettered glimpse into Zimmerman's life as a young man.* 
He makes reference to his 2005 run-in with the law, in which he was charged with obstructing justice and battery on a law enforcement officer.
'2 felonies dropped to 1 misdemeanor!!!!!!!!!!! The man knows he was wrong but still got this hump, Thanks to everyone friends and fam, G baby you know your my rock!'
He was later ordered to take an anger management class. 

Zimmerman also talks about the domestic dispute with *an ex-fiance, whom he called his 'ex-hoe,'* that led to her filing court documents alleging he pushed her in August 2005. 
*'Im still free! The ex hoe tried her hardest, but the judge saw through it! Big Mike, reppin the Dverse security makin me look a million bucks, broke her down!* Thanks to everyone for checkin up on me! .....,' he writes.
Read more: Travon Martin case: George Zimmerman's unseen 2005 MySpace page includes slurs against Mexicans | Mail Online


*Trial by Media, online defence advocated by Mark O'Mara.*


*The new Zimmerman PR cash collection website, the (O'Mara Fees Fund), Pro Bono?*
On the blog, GZLegalCase.com, O'Mara's firm acknowledges it is "unusual" to "maintain a social media presence on behalf of a defendant."
 The Twitter account, @GzlegalCase, has been used to tweet links to blog posts and discredit imitators. On Facebook, Zimmerman's defense solicited reader input on the subject of $200,000 in donations Zimmerman gathered through his original website. More than 300 people have responded.

O'Mara did not respond to numerous requests for comment.

However, late Monday, Zimmerman's defense posted an update on its blog in response to "a lot of press today regarding* the online presence we have put in place for the defense of George Zimmerman*." In the post, Zimmerman's legal team acknowledges that its use of social media is "relatively unprecedented."

*That "online...defence" comment by O'Mara shows quite plainly that je is advocating trial by public media.*


George Zimmerman: Defense team creates gzlegalcase.com to discuss George Zimmerman's case - Orlando Sentinel


Since O'Mara wants the social media presence in defending his client, the two edged swod cuts both ways.
O'Mara's move, rather than reducing social tension over the case has increased the tempo, as now, anything goes with any information on the case, the media have no monopoly on info any more and Judge Lester has refused to put a gagging order on any info on the airwaves.

Nothing is _sub judice,_ as normally required in any court case.

The end result of all this is that the jury pool is going to be totally polluted.

As a consequence of that, trial by media has won the day.

So much for the US system of justice.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> You're using an emotionally  charged word "lynch" to whip up support for Zimmerman, simply an  exaggeration to express your fear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Leemo made more sense in his one or two posts than you, bEnt, have made in this entire thread.

----------


## guyinthailand

> *Georgie's past comes back to blahblahblah*.
> A MySpace page kept by George Zimmerman in 2005 has blah blah blah
> The page shows Zimmerman had black friends as a *blah blah blah blah*
> 
> 'I dont miss driving around scared to hit mexicans walkin *blah 
> 
>              blah
> 
>                              blah                      blah blah* 
> ...


bEnt, you wouldn't know justice if it bit you on the ass.

You are so lame grasping at 2005 facebook blatherings allegedly from Zimmerman about blah blah blah who cares totally irrelevant to whether this was self-defense or not.

Oh my God!  bEnt has broken the case wide open yet again!

Not!

As usual, ya got nothin' bEnt.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
>  *Georgie's past comes back to blahblahblah*.
> A MySpace page kept by George Zimmerman in 2005 has blah blah blah
> The page shows Zimmerman had black friends as a *blah blah blah blah*
> 'I dont miss driving around scared to hit mexicans walkin *blah 
>              blah
> 
> ...


Your ability to enunciate clearly has obviously deteriorated dramatically.    :Smile: 

Just to correct the record, my post referred to Zimmerman's gangster image that he projected when he was a 22 yo man (not a 17yo kid), in his Myspace page, not facebook.
There is nothing "alleged" about the account. On the contrary, his lawyer, Mark O'Mara, confirmed that the reported Myspace account was indeed Zimmerman's, not a fake.

JoeG (_aka_ Georgie), George Zimmerman certainly displays his misogyny and ambivalent racial attitude along with his contempt for the law, in his Myspace posts.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^ You iz a very sick lizard, gayinthailand, you are in denial of reality.
> Just read carefully and don't be such a girl.


I'm trying to remember which abject, bleating tosser was only recently whinging at me for "ad hominem" attacks.

Fucking hell, can't think, it will come to me in a moment.

 :smiley laughing:

----------


## ENT

Stalking again harry?

----------


## DrAndy

from the Reuters link



> "Let's talk about the elephant in the room. I'm black, OK?" the woman said


I thought a lot of white folks were fat too!

----------


## DrAndy

> JoeG (aka Georgie), George Zimmerman certainly displays his misogyny and ambivalent racial attitude along with his contempt for the law, in his Myspace posts.


well, bENT, you had better not get involved in any crime

think what they would say about you on your Teakdoor postings

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Stalking again harry?


Actually no, I'm playing a new game, it's called "Spot the hypocritical, lying twat".

2 points on the board already.

 :mid:

----------


## S Landreth

Trayvon Martin's social media posts may come up at trial - Trayvon Martin - MiamiHerald.com

George Zimmermans controversial Myspace account shows a pattern of profiling, Trayvons familys lawyer says.

SANFORD -- George Zimmermans defense attorney says he will not comment on a Myspace page that portrays his client in a less-than-favorable light, because the racially charged social-media postings could come up at his murder trial.

But he hinted that if Zimmermans postings will be scrutinized in court, Trayvon Martins would be too.

The Miami Herald reported that Zimmerman had a Myspace social media account in 2005 in which he wrote insulting remarks about Mexicans. He referred to an ex-girlfriend as a hoe, talked about beating a felony rap and complained that every Mexican he ran into pulled a knife on him. One line suggested that friends went to jail rather than snitch on him.

Workin 96 hours to get a decent pay check, gettin knifes pulled on you by every mexican you run into! Zimmerman wrote.

Defense attorney Mark OMara said Zimmermans account had been hacked and abandoned  but acknowledged that the posts cited by The Herald were written by his client.

A crucial element in Zimmermans criminal case is whether he racially profiled Trayvon Martin when he followed him Feb. 26, got into a fight with him and then shot him. Zimmerman denies profiling Trayvon and claims he shot him to save his own life.

Trayvons familys attorney, Benjamin Crump, told The Herald that the Myspace posting was disturbing because it demonstrates Zimmermans pattern of profiling.

Its one thing to think something like that, but to type it? Crump said. You really gotta be racist. You really have to have ill will and malice.

In a statement posted on his website Wednesday, OMara published one of Crumps Miami Herald quotes, and noted: We believe that inviting public scrutiny of the contents of this social media account invites scrutiny of the social media accounts of all parties involved. While these social media accounts may be public, we will not comment on them publicly, as they may be part of the evidence produced at trial.

OMara appeared to suggest that Trayvons social media accounts would be brought up at trial as well.

I always assume they are going to attack the victim, Crump said when told of OMaras statement Wednesday. What part of what I said wasnt true? You dont have to be a rocket scientist to see the behavior pattern. Zimmerman is on trial for murder: His credibility is at issue, his mentality is at issue.

In March, conservative bloggers discovered Trayvon had a Twitter account, where he looked older and wore gold covers on his teeth. He often retweeted crude jokes riddled with foul language and posted offensive lyrics to popular rap songs.

His email was hacked by white supremacists, although most of the material found there was related to plans for college. Several other widely circulated photos that appeared to show Trayvon looking like a thug were proven to be fakes. Other sites posted screen grabs of a few comments Trayvons friends made on Facebook and Twitter that they interpreted to suggest that the dead teen sold marijuana and was violent.

The social media accounts were considered damaging to Trayvons family, because they gave the appearance that his parents had deliberately distributed photos that showed him looking angelic and considerably younger.

Crump wondered whether OMaras unwillingness to discuss Zimmermans social media account means he is backing off the digital social network strategy the defense attorney launched last week that included Twitter, a Facebook page and a blog.

OMara said he began his foray into social media in part to respond to the avalanche of emails and phone calls that were overwhelming his office. He also said it would be irresponsible to ignore the robust debate taking place online about his client.

Within an hour of posting his statement on Zimmermans Myspace account on Facebook, 20 people had replied.

People dont want Trayvons past looked into, but its OK to do it to Zimmerman? wrote Dave Brown.

----------


## harrybarracuda

*Stiller Film Renamed Following Trayvon Killing*



_Last Updated: 6:58PM 06/05/2012_



*A new Hollywood film starring Ben Stiller and Vince Vaughn  has had its name changed to distance it from the deadly US shooting of  unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin.*

 Twentieth Century Fox said forthcoming summer comedy "Neighbourhood Watch" would now be called "The Watch".
  The US studio also launched a new promotional trailer for the movie about suburban fathers hunting aliens.
  It said: "As the subject matter of this alien invasion comedy bears  no relation whatsoever to the recent tragic events in Florida, the  studio altered the title to avoid any accidental or unintended  impression that it might."
  In March, Fox removed posters in cinemas showing a shadowy figure and a trailer for "Neighbourhood Watch".
  The move followed a national uproar over the killing of Martin in Florida by neighbourhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman.
  Zimmerman was not initially charged because of a state law that  allows people to use deadly force if they feel their life is in danger.
  However, he was later arrested and charged with second-degree murder.
  He was released on bail last month and is now awaiting trial.
  The film, which also stars Jonah Hill, is set to be released in US cinemas on July 27.

----------


## ENT

*Zimmerman's not guilty plea accepted in Martin case arraignment*

George Zimmerman’s not-guilty plea on a second-degree murder charge in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin was accepted Tuesday afternoon at his Sanford, Fla., court arraignment, which the defendant did not attend.

Judge Kenneth R. Lester set a date for a so-called docket sounding 8:30 a.m., Aug. 8. That’s when a trial date will be set unless Zimmerman’s attorney, Mark  O'Mara, asks for a continuance.
Also on Tuesday, O'Mara in two filings waived Zimmerman's right to a speedy trial and said he needed more time to prepare his defense for trial. Zimmerman otherwise is guaranteed under Florida law the right to a trial within 175 days of his arrest.
U.S. News - Zimmerman's not guilty plea accepted in Martin case arraignment



*At the bond hearing;*
*(Defence)* O'Mara asked for $15,000 bond for Zimmerman, and asked that his location be confidential if he's released.

*(Prosecution)* De la Rionda said Zimmerman's arrest showed a "lack of adhering to authority" and request he be held without bond, or that if it was granted that it be set at $1 million.

*(Judge)* Lester called the arrest a *"run-of-the-mill-type run-in with the law,"* and granted the bail.

He "... shows no need to agonise over a decision.....just follow the law...", Judge Lester described by his daughter.

----------


## harrybarracuda

I wasn't sure whether to post it here on in the "Ridiculous headlines" thread (see below):




> *Medical records 'back' Zimmerman's self-defence claims* 
> 
> 
>                     New evidence suggests Trayvon Martin fought the neighbourhood watchman before he was gunned down
>                        16/05/2012 11:18 AM       
> 
>  
> 
> CONTROVERSIAL: Medical records back Zimmerman's self-defence claims -  New evidence suggests Trayvon Martin fought the neighbourhood watchman  before he was gunned down
> ...

----------


## ENT

I doubt that Martin's raw knuckles directly resulted from his punching Zimmerman's face.

----------


## ENT

Apparently, Zimmerman was seeing a shrink and on medication for ADHD at the time of the shooting.  

                                                                                                                                                                           Zimmerman, 28, told his doctor he was troubled by what happened the night before, saying he experienced ‘occasional nausea when thinking about the violence.

*The doctor said it was ‘imperative’ that Zimmerman go to a psychologist he had been seeing to be examined.* It’s unknown what Zimmerman had sought counseling for in the past. 

Before the shooting, *Zimmerman had been prescribed Adderall, a common psycho-stimulant used treat ADHD, and Temazepam, a sleeping medication.*
Both drugs cause agitation and mood swings as side effects, though they occur in fewer than 10 percent of patients.

Zimmerman claims he followed Trayvon, who was wearing a hoody, when he saw him walking through the gated community when Zimmerman lives. 
Medical report shows George Zimmerman was treated for a broken nose and cuts on his head after shooting Trayvon Martin | Busted In Acadiana

----------


## Minnie Maugham

The lefties are reaching (again). Zimmerman's medical records show he had black eyes, broken nose and lacerations to the back of the head on the night he shot Trayvon. Cmon, aren't you lefties supporting Zimmerman coz he's Latino?

----------


## OhOh

> I doubt that Martin's raw knuckles directly resulted from his punching Zimmerman's face.


What is your basis for doubting evidence recorded at the scene of the crime or soon afterwards?

----------


## ENT

The evidence is doubtless, the (implied) cause is questionable.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> MEDICAL RECORDS have allegedly shown that George Zimmerman *sustained  several injuries after he fatally shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.*


I was assuming it was a proof reading error, but I suppose it's also possible that they're absolutely correct.

----------


## ENT

More of the jigsaw,

More details are emerging on the autopsy results for Trayvon Martin, and earlier reports that his knuckles were skinned (as if from a fight) seem to have been inaccurate. The autopsy reported *only a tiny abrasion about a quarter-inch long on his left ring finger.*

And possibly even more interesting: the autopsy report says Martin* died from a gunshot at “intermediate range.*”

Little Green Footballs - Trayvon Martin Autopsy: Knuckle Injury Was Tiny, but Gunshot Was at 'Intermediate Range'



A tiny abrasion on Martin's left little finger is not consistent with his punching Zimmerman in the face, especially if he was right handed.

The cut on Martin's finger could be a defence wound from protecting himself from Zimmerman's gun, especially if Zimmerman was right handed as indicated by the shot hitting Martin's left upper chest.

There'd have to be at least 2-3 ft between Martin and Zimmerman for that to happen.

Or at least, Martin's chest had to be at least 1-2 ft away from the muzzle of the gun.
Not easy if Martin was on top of Zimmerman.

An intermediate range for the gunshot wound can be from about 2-6ft.

----------


## guyinthailand

You do realize, don't you, that Zimmerman's injuries could have easily come from Martin holding his head and pounding it into the ground, nose first, then back of head?

And this is what is alleged to have happened. 

Why all this fascination with knuckles?  Is there a report that claims categorically that Zimmerman said it was Martin's knuckles that hit him?  Besides, you can punch someone in the nose with your knuckles, break their nose, and not have a scratch on your knuckles.  Noses aren't hard to break.  A nose can also easily be broken by the smashing of a palm--or an elbow (or the ground)--into said nose.

The knuckles didn't cause the head injuries, did they?

----------


## S Landreth

interesting read,.......

Forensic Firearm Evidence May Solve Zimmerman Case « Frederick Leatherman Law Blog

and this,.........

Open Channel - Court docs: Trayvon Martin shooting 'ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman'

----------


## ENT

[QUOTE=guyinthailand;2103276]You do realize, don't you, that Zimmerman's injuries could have easily come from *Martin holding his head and pounding it into the ground, nose first, then back of head?*

And this is what is alleged to have happened. 

The knuckles didn't cause the head injuries, did they?[/QUOTE

Nose first, then the back of the head on the concrete? How did Martin manage to turn him over to do that?
Got a reference for that?

Maybe Zimmerman scratched his head against the tree, next to where Martin's body was found. His head would have been closer to that than the concrete sidewalk, by all accounts, as Martin was found on the grass with his feet pointed _towards_ the sdewalk.

----------


## Humbert

The prosecution will argue that Zimmerman, despite clear directives from the police dispatch officer, placed himself in a situation that led to a physical confrontation. The whole mess could have been avoided if Zimmerman had stayed in his car. However, it is likely that he will be found not guilty because of Florida's absurd stand your ground law.

----------


## guyinthailand

> The prosecution will argue that Zimmerman, despite clear directives from the police dispatch officer, placed himself in a situation that led to a physical confrontation. The whole mess could have been avoided if Zimmerman had stayed in his car. However, it is likely that he will be found not guilty because of Florida's absurd stand your ground law.


The defense will argue that the "whole mess could have been avoided" if Martin had not attacked Zimmerman.

There were no 'clear directives' from police.  All they said after they learned Zimmerman was following Martin was "we don't need you to do that".

And as far as we know it was Martin who turned around and confronted Zimmerman, thereby placing HIMself (Martin) in a "situation that led to a physical confrontation".

You want Zimmerman to fry, which is why you see things this way. 

Same goes for bEnt.

----------


## guyinthailand

> interesting read,.......
> 
> Forensic Firearm Evidence May Solve Zimmerman Case « Frederick Leatherman Law Blog


interesting but mostly rehashing stuff and a lot of  speculation.  





> Open Channel - Court docs: Trayvon Martin shooting 'ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman'



Yes, interesting read but, again, nothing new.

the question still remains "was Zimmerman defending himself and justifed in shooting Martin.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Maybe Zimmerman scratched his head against the tree, next to where Martin's body was found. His head would have been closer to that than the concrete sidewalk, by all accounts, as Martin was found on the grass with his feet pointed _towards_ the sdewalk.


Ah, more brilliant detective work by bEnt.  He scratched his head against a tree?  

Maybe ....if...welll...then...coulda....woulda...shoulda

bEnt: again i ask you: since you raised the knuckle issue: Where is the report of knuckles?   you raise these bogus issues and make like they mean something.  That's what knuckleheads do.

----------


## larvidchr

From the BBC online news 18/5 - 2012.

_"The file includes autopsy evidence that traces of a cannabis ingredient were found in Trayvon Martin's system."

__"Several officers who arrived at the scene noted that Mr Zimmerman had injuries._
_      Police photos show injuries to George Zimmerman's face and head

_ 
_Officer Timothy Smith said: "I could observe that [Mr  Zimmerman's] back appeared to be wet and he was covered in grass, as if  he had been laying on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also  bleeding from the nose and the back of the head."_
_Another officer, Jonathan Mead, said in his report that the  neighbourhood watchman "appeared to have a broken and bloody nose and  swelling of his face"."_

_"The report includes a number of witness statements, including one from  a resident who said she saw two men chasing each other, followed by a  fistfight. Then she heard a gunshot._

_Another resident told police he saw "the black male mounted  on the white or Hispanic male and throwing punches 'MMA (mixed martial  arts) style'"._ 
_The resident said he shouted to the struggling pair that he  was going to call the police, before he heard the "pop" of a gunshot._

_Another resident is quoted by police as saying: "I opened  door and saw a guy on the ground getting hit by another man on top of  him… (guy getting hit on ground was wearing red [an apparent reference  to Mr Zimmerman] calling out for help)"._





Should end any strange speculations that Zimmerman somehow have inflicted injuries on himself after being released and before visiting his own physician.


Also should end some-ones claim that the voice crying for help was the little black kid armed only with snacks (cannabis laced snacks perhaps :mid: ) Well not to worry completely normal for a nice well adjusted sweet Kid who's only picture his family and the press initially could find and still tout is from he was 12 years old missing quite a bit of the real 170 odd pounds tat's and gangbanger gold-teeth.     

 :mid:  

Looks increasingly like this case is a travesty of justice towards Zimmerman love or hate the "Stand your ground" and brought on by the sick US climate of racial tension and fearful pressure susceptible authorities when anti black motives is alleged. 

Whole news piece here -

BBC News - George Zimmerman was 'bleeding from the nose and head'

----------


## Humbert

> You want Zimmerman to fry, which is why you see things this way.


I have stated before in this thread that I think Zimmerman will go free so how you can come to that conclusion is mystifying.

----------


## ENT

How _gayinthailand_ reaches his conclusions_ is_ a mystery, he's got all excited again.    :Smile:

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe Zimmerman scratched his head against the tree, next to where Martin's body was found. His head would have been closer to that than the concrete sidewalk, by all accounts, as Martin was found on the grass with his feet pointed _towards_ the sdewalk.
> 
> 
> Ah, more brilliant detective work by bEnt.  He scratched his head against a tree?  
> 
> ...



*guyinthailand	 "You do realize, don't you, that Zimmerman's injuries could have easily come from Martin holding his head and pounding it into the ground, nose first, then back of head?

And this is what is alleged to have happened."* 

For the second time, where is the reference to the above?

There isn't one, so* more bullshit from you.*


The reference to a tiny cut below the knuckle on Martin's  left little finger was posted here.
Little Green Footballs - Trayvon Martin Autopsy: Knuckle Injury Was Tiny, but Gunshot Was at 'Intermediate Range'

The only frying going on around here is your brains.

----------


## Mr Lick

> Apparently, Zimmerman was seeing a shrink and on medication for ADHD at the time of the shooting.


'Apparently' may not be good enough but if Zimmerman was on medication or under professional phychiatic care then he would/should have been duty bound to report such to his supervisors if he intended to carry a firearm in a professional capacity.

'If' he failed to declare his mental state to his supervisors then i suspect the prosecution will make much of it.

----------


## ENT

According to Zimmerman's doctor:
"The doctor said it was ‘imperative’ that Zimmerman go to a psychologist he had been seeing to be examined. It’s unknown what Zimmerman had sought counseling for in the past. 
Before the shooting, Zimmerman had been prescribed Adderall, a common psycho-stimulant used treat ADHD, and Temazepam, a sleeping medication.

http://www.bustedinacadiana.com/2012.../#.T7ZCltxo2Sp

GZ refused to get checked out by an ear, nose and throat specialist, return for follow up treatment or talk with his psychologist, as recommended by his doctor.

Why? Too many medicos checking too much to make him comfortable?

----------


## ENT

*From George Zimmerman's medical report*.


Apparently, no photograph was taken of the injuries noted in the medical report, no Xray was taken of his head and the cuts on the back of his head did not require stitching. The only recommended after-care, according to ABC, was a recommendation to obtain counseling.

Since the report mentioned that *Zimmerman was taking Adderall and Temazepam, he probably was seeing a psychiatrist for ADHD* and, if he followed-up with that aftercare recommendation, he likely would have done so by informing his psychiatrist regarding the event.

There was no reference to a psychiatric report.

I also did not see any indication that the doctor at the family clinic prescribed any pain medication.

Zimmerman Medical Report Released « Frederick Leatherman Law Blog

What was that bit on the charge sheet about being of a "depraved mind" (or intent)?

----------


## ENT

> 'If' he failed to declare his mental state to his supervisors then i suspect the prosecution will make much of it.


I think so.    :mid:

----------


## larvidchr

That is all a load of bollocks, it has nothing to do with the incident itself, people on medication have a right to defend themselves aswell ENT or do you think special rules apply for them ? 

And how many punches do you have to take and do you have to wait until the injury in the back of your head, that you cant see :mid: , requires stiches before you say enough, or wait until you her your own scull crack, it is all just rubbish and this stuff is desperately grabbing for straws as the evidence in defence of Zimmermans actions comes forward.

Finally did I not just post Police evidence photos of Zimmerman's injuries, nothing more is really required photo wise unless you suggest the Police falsified those photos.

And no physchological evaluations was neccecary nor mandatory, unless it was to record his distressed emotional state after the incident so he could claim damages, most responsible Doctors would probably suggest some kind of counseling/ crisis management after such an incident.

Zimmerman was on neighbourhood watch an unofficial voluntary thing as I have understood it ??, so in that case there would be no supervisor with authority to denie Zimmerman to do his rounds because he had taken an "aspirin" or whatever medication ENT jugdes to have profound impact on peoples minds, in fact if he did need medication it would be more of a problem if he had not taken it ENT  :mid:  since medication usually is to alleviate a problem right!!!

Zimmerman had a valid carry permit and it was issued and not revoked because of any mental health problems, we must assume Police have looked into the legality of Zimmermans permit.

----------


## ENT

The report showed traces of THC - an ingredient found in marijuana - in Martin's blood plus a positive test for cannabis in his urine.
Earlier this year it was revealed that Martin had been briefly suspended from school for marijuana use but family contend that it was irrelevant to his death.

*The documents also include a photocopy of a camera phone photograph of Zimmerman taken at the scene before he received medical attention.*
Trayvon Martin had marijuana in his system at time of death - Telegraph

Interesting pics.

Not much more than a scratch to GZ's nose. From what? A knuckle?
The black eyes don't look severe either.
The fractured nose is a "suspected" fractured nose only.

What was Zimmerman doing lying still enough on his_ left_ elbow, facing downwards to his left, long enough for the blood to flow in an uninterrupted path and direction, after he shot Martin?

In that position, he would have been facing north, towards the T-junction in the sidewalk.

His right arm and hand would have been free to use the gun.

The muzzle was aprox. 2-4 inches or so away from Martin

----------


## ENT

Radio interview


"I can tell you there was no fighting going on at the time that the gun went off."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/18/us...ager.html?_r=1

According to these witnesses, the fight started at _the other end_ of the row of houses from where Martin was shot.
The fighting had stopped by the time both Martin and Zimmerman had reached the spot where the shot occurred. 

What was Zimmerman doing to cause Martin to walk away from his home?
Had he tried to arrest him?

----------


## harrybarracuda

Shot at intermediate range, so another possible fit is that Martin kicked his arse and he responded by executing him.

----------


## larvidchr

^ There is easy a couple of feet from a gun drawn from the hip and fired at ground-level against the upper chest region of a man sitting on top of you assuming you are trying to keep the gun out of his reach while you try to get a shot off, it is all just pure speculation and I am sure the Police have been into all that very thoroughly, the by Zimmerman alleged body positions - distance, gunpowder residue, and angle of bullet impact etc. etc.

----------


## ENT

> That is all a load of bollocks, it has nothing to do with the incident itself, people on medication have a right to defend themselves aswell ENT or do you think special rules apply for them ? 
> 
> And how many punches do you have to take and do you have to wait until the injury in the back of your head, that you cant see, requires stiches before you say enough, or wait until you her your own scull crack, it is all just rubbish and this stuff is desperately grabbing for straws as the evidence in defence of Zimmermans actions comes forward.
> 
> Finally did I not just post Police evidence photos of Zimmerman's injuries, nothing more is really required photo wise unless you suggest the Police falsified those photos.
> 
> And no physchological evaluations was neccecary nor mandatory, unless it was to record his distressed emotional state after the incident so he could claim damages, most responsible Doctors would probably suggest some kind of counseling/ crisis management after such an incident.
> 
> Zimmerman was on neighbourhood watch an unofficial voluntary thing as I have understood it ??, so in that case there would be no supervisor with authority to denie Zimmerman to do his rounds because he had taken an "aspirin" or whatever medication ENT jugdes to have profound impact on peoples minds, in fact if he did need medication it would be more of a problem if he had not taken it ENT  since medication usually is to alleviate a problem right!!!
> ...




Apparently Zimmerman was _appointed_ as a neighbouhood watch captain, and even if a volunteer, he was not permitted to patrol armed, as a watchman.

The police pics you posted are from the same time and one is the same as in the ones in the link that I posted.
No sign of any great beating that Zimmerman claimed.
Blood, like water, runs downwards, so you can gauge for yourself the position Zimmerman was in when he got his head cuts.
*He was not lying on his back*.
_Immediately_* before(or after)* the fatal shot, Zimmerman was wounded, evidenced by the blood flow downwards towards the front and side of his head.
Zimmerman was in an at least a semi-upright position *facing downwards* towards the ground during or _immediately_ after being wounded.

We may assume many things, but first(local) police enquiry was conflicted and dropped, then a second one instigated by the newly appointed SA, then an FBI enquiry launched into the whole matter. FBI are now also deliberating charges against Zimmerman.

The Sanford police dept. at the time either ignored Zimmerman's psychiatric problems, (on medication, and seeing a psychologist according to O'Mara), or were not aware of them because Zimmerman refused to disclose his condition, as he was legally required to.

ADHD, which Zimmerman was reportedly suffering from, can cause unpredictable bizarre behaviour in an individual, ranging from suspiciousness to paranoia and pre-emptive defence against perceived threat.
Suspiciousness bordering on paranoia is one of the main symptoms, as instinct, "gut feelings" and fear dominate the subject's thought processes, not logic.

If the medication regime was altered by irregular doses of the prescribed medications, mood swings and irrational  thought patterns and behaviour become more evident.

----------


## billy the kid

zimmerman a djooooo ?  they're trying make out that he could be the victim.  wtf.

----------


## ENT

*Several George Zimmerman witnesses change their accounts*
Three changed their stories in ways that may damage Zimmerman. A fourth abandoned her initial story, that she saw one person chasing another. Now, she says, she saw a single figure running.

*Witness 2*
A young woman who lives in the Retreat at Twin Lakes community, where Trayvon was shot, was interviewed twice by Sanford police and once by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.

She told authorities that she had taken out her contact lenses just before the incident. In her first recorded interview with Sanford police four days after the shooting, she told lead Investigator Chris Serino, "I saw two guys running. Couldn't tell you who was in front, who was behind."

She stepped away from her window, and when she looked again, she "saw a fistfight. Just fists. I don't know who was hitting who."

A week later, she added a detail when talking again to Serino: During the chase, the two figures had been 10 feet apart.

That all changed when she was reinterviewed March 20 by an FDLE agent. That time, she recalled catching a glimpse of just one running figure, she told FDLE Investigator John Batchelor, and she heard the person more than saw him.

"I couldn't tell you if it was a man, a woman, a kid, black or white. I couldn't tell you because it was dark and because I didn't have my contacts on or glasses. … I just know I saw a person out there."

*Witness 12*
A young mother who is also a neighbor in the town-home community never gave a recorded interview to Sanford police, according to prosecution records released last week. She first sat down for an audio-recorded interview with an FDLE agent March 20, more than three weeks after the shooting.

During that session, she said she saw two people on the ground immediately after the shooting and was not sure who was on top, Zimmerman or Trayvon.

"I don't know which one. … All I saw when they were on the ground was dark colors," she said.

Six days later, however, she was sure: It was Zimmerman on top, she told trial prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda during a 21/2-minute recorded session.

"I know after seeing the TV of what's happening, comparing their sizes, I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size," she said.

*Witness 6*
This witness lived a few feet from where Trayvon and Zimmerman had their fight. On the night of the shooting, he told Serino he saw a black man on top of a lighter-skinned man "just throwing down blows on the guy, MMA-style," a reference to mixed martial arts.

He also said the one calling for help was "the one being beat up," a reference to Zimmerman.

But three weeks later, when he was interviewed by an FDLE agent, the man said he was no longer sure which one called for help.

*"I truly can't tell who, after thinking about it, was yelling for help* just because it was so dark out on that sidewalk," he said.

*He also said he was no longer sure Trayvon was throwing punches. The teenager may have simply been keeping Zimmerman pinned to the ground, he said.*

He did not equivocate, though, about who was on top.

"The black guy was on top," he said.

*Witness 13*
He is important because he talked with Zimmerman and watched the way he behaved immediately after the shooting, before police arrived.

After this neighbor heard gunfire, he went outside and spotted Zimmerman standing there with"blood on the back of his head," he told Sanford police the night of the shooting.

Zimmerman told him that *Trayvon "was beating up on me, so I had to shoot him,"* the witness told Serino. The Neighborhood Watch captain then asked the witness to call his wife, Shellie Zimmerman, and tell her what happened.

In two subsequent interviews about a month later — one with an FDLE investigator and one with de la Rionda — the witness described Zimmerman's demeanor in greater detail, adding that he spoke as if the shooting were no big deal.

Zimmerman's tone, the witness said, was "not like 'I can't believe I just shot someone!' — it was more like, 'Just tell my wife I shot somebody …,' like it was nothing."

George Zimmerman witnesses: Several George Zimmerman witnesses change their accounts in Trayvon Martin case - Orlando Sentinel

Strange stuff, is memory.
It's a bit like food, it goes "off" after a while, which is why it's so important to get info immediately after an event when it's all fresh in the mind. We're lucky to retain 20% of a once clear memory of an event a couple of months later.

Hindsight is another interesting thing, as it can qualify one's memory of an event, stuff that was too uncomfortable to deal with at the time comes up to the surface later.

The prosecution and defence teams in this case are going to have a ball.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Out of interest, how's the trial going?

Is there even going to be one?

----------


## ENT

In the US system you never know, at least I don't, as it seems quite a convoluted process.
Seems like a 50-50 chance, according to most punters.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Obviously hasn't got the lawyers Strauss-Kahn had.

 :Smile:

----------


## ENT

Strauss-Kahn has a lot more than a few hundred grand in his slush fund too. 

The 2nd degree murder charge might stick though, as GZ was under the influence (whether he'd just ingested or arbitrarily discontinued use of) Temazepam and Adderal, a downer and an upper, a nice mix if you want to space out.

The come down effect is nasty, but a touch of Adderal (speed) can get you twitching again, while the Temazepam will just slow you down, but you've got to sleep on it or you just end up seeing things and day dreaming, quite stoned.
GZ seems to have had either a bit too much Adderal, or skipped a dose of his Temazepam that night.


How will this affect the case? According Newsone who spoke with Steven J. Topazio, Attorney-at-Law, voluntary drug use does not excuse criminal acts: 

"Defendants who commit crimes under the influence of drugs sometimes argue that their mental functioning was so impaired that they should not be held accountable for their conduct.

Generally, however, voluntary impairment does not excuse criminal conduct, since people know or should know that drugs affect mental functioning, and they should therefore be held legally responsible if they commit crimes as a result of their voluntary use.
Read more: George Zimmerman Took Drugs With Violent Side Effects When He Killed Trayvon (DETAILS) | Global Grind

----------


## ENT

Further items of legal and forensic analysis reports indicate that Zimmerman's defence is being blown to bits.

Half of the evidence has not even been released yet.

One item in the forensic report states that Martin had none of GZs DNA on his sleeve cuffs as he should have if he'd been up close and punching GZ out.

Another thing;
No way was the voice heard screaming coming from GZ, the audio analysis refutes that claim. The fact that the frantic screaming stopped with a bang, then GZ is acting as cool as a cucumber, showed no signs of emotion or agitation after the event. This would be out of the ordinary if he was indeed facing a life threatening situation and screaming for help.

Can you imagine that?
A guy is screaming for help, so shoots his assailant and immediately stops yelling and calmly turns the body over, presses on it and walks away, doesn't try to help the victim, then just as calmly asks someone to call the police and someone else to call his wife to tell her he'd shot someone.
No sign of remorse, nothing.

You'd expect the guy to be at least shocked or shaking or sick after doing that.
He'd never shot a man before, let alone kill one.

But not GZ. He was quite relaxed and calm, even the medics who checked him out in the car stated that.

Sorry people, but GZ is a nutter, was of a depraved mind at the time.

----------


## guyinthailand

> In the US system you never know, at least I don't, as it seems quite a convoluted process.
> Seems like a 50-50 chance, according to most punters.


Please provide a citation regarding "most punters".  Is there an online gambling site and odds-makers we should be aware of?

----------


## ENT

Stick your citation up ya tuchus.

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## guyinthailand

> Maybe Zimmerman scratched his head against the tree, next to where Martin's body was found. 
> 
> *guyinthailand:    "You do realize, don't you, that Zimmerman's injuries could have easily come from Martin holding his head and pounding it into the ground, nose first, then back of head?
> *
> For the second time, where is the reference to the above?
> 
> There isn't one, so* more bullshit from you.*


bEnt: you're joking right?  _'Maybe Zimmerman scratched his head against a tree_'?  To make such a statement I think you  took my advice and banged your head over and over again into the pavement.  No, I retract that: you've made ridiculous statements like this all along, ever since this thread started.

Here is the LA Times article with a 'reference' to Zimmerman getting his head pounded by Martin.

George Zimmerman was bloody after confrontation with Trayvon Martin, evidence shows - latimes.com

----------


## guyinthailand

> Stick your citation up ya tuchus.


this is bEnt's way of admitting he's full of s*#t.

It was  you who made the claims, dunce, so it wouldn't me 'my' citation, it would be 'yours'.

bEnt, for the hundredth time on this thread your statements and claims have been discredited.  Why don't you throw in the towel, and take some time off.

----------


## ENT

Oh fuck off gaybo.
You and the rest of the pro-Zimmerman camp keep harping on about the few cuts and knocks on your pet wanabe's head.
Of course he's got some scratches and bangs!
What d'ya expect from a scrap? Kisses?
I'd have given him far more than a kid would have, the frkin bully!
The bloke had no business following Martin with a gun and Martin had every right to stand his ground against Zimmerman, idiot.

The forensic evidence spells it out clearly, that no DNA from Zimmerman was found on Martin's clothes to indicate that Martin was punching or grabbing or sitting on Zimmerman, none, so get that into your thick head.
If he'd been holding GZs head to bash it around or had his hands over GZs mouth to "suffocate" the cwnt, there would be GZs DNA all over his cuffs and sleeves of his hoody.
There was none, zero, zilch! Got it dumbo?

I've never had to argue with such a stupid prat as you.
You're totally in denial of all that suggests that GZ was the aggressor in the murder.

Go read the forensic report and the latest witness statements and the first responders' reports after they checked him out in the car.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Go read the forensic report and the latest witness  statements and the fist responders' reports after they checked him out  in the car.


We've been over this dozens of times, bEnt: there is every indication  Martin attacked Zimmerman first.  Do you think Zimmerman got his bloody  head, etc AFTER Martin died?  (Oh, right, you think he scratched his  head on a tree).  As someone else tried to point out to your dim-bulb of  a brain in a post above, it makes no sense Zimmerman would call the  cops and then murder someone.




> The bloke had no business following Martin with a gun and Martin had every right to stand his ground against Zimmerman, idiot. The forensic evidence spells it out clearly, that no DNA from Zimmerman  was found on Martin's clothes to indicate that Martin was punching or  grabbing or sitting on Zimmerman,


Poor bEnt: can't get even the basics right.  Zimmerman had a concealed carry permit and was trying to do something about the horrendous crime in their neighborhood.  And neither you nor I know for certain who initiated the attack.  And DNA not found or found on Martin is of no consequence except in your twisted brain. So all three of your statements above are wrong.   Which all makes for delightful reading throughout the many pages of this thread: bEnt wrong time and time again, as he twists himself into contradictory knots that he can't extricate himself from.  Keep floundering, bEnt, you are a source of never-ending amusement.

----------


## DrAndy

> The report showed traces of THC - an ingredient found in marijuana - in Martin's blood plus a positive test for cannabis in his urine. Earlier this year it was revealed that Martin had been briefly suspended from school for marijuana use but family contend that it was irrelevant to his death.


Marijuana would make you less aggressive, if anything

----------


## ENT

That's a fact.
If GZ had just had a joint instead of playing uppers and downers with his ADHD meds he wouldn't have been so twitchy as to shoot a kid.

----------


## ENT

*Quote guyinthailand post #1176 above.*

 "there is every indication Martin attacked Zimmerman first"

and;
"And neither you nor I know for certain who initiated the attack."

There you go contradicting yourself again!    :mid: 

and;
"And DNA not found or found on Martin is of no consequence except in your twisted brain. "

Tell that to the judge and jury.    


 :smiley laughing:

----------


## ENT

Zimmerman's relationship with the Sanford PD has been a subject of contention, claims and counter-claims as to preferential treatment that Zimmerman received the night he shot Martin have raised doubts as to the impartiality of the Sanford PD's handling of the case, especially Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee's account of his relationship with Zimmerman.
Below is an article outlining some details of how GZ was on personal terms with the Sanford PD, and how the "thin blue line" served to shield him from normal procedure.

*Zimmerman rode with cops, ripped department* 
 In a City Hall forum in 2011, George Zimmerman criticized Sanford police as lazy, saying he knew because he had ridden along with cops.
A year before George Zimmerman killed a Miami Gardens teenager, he stood before a City Hall community forum with a grievance: Sanford cops are lazy, he told the then-mayor elect.
And he should know: Zimmerman, a community college criminal justice major, said he went on ride-alongs with the Sanford Police.

"*Zimmerman’s public lambasting of the police department and its outgoing chief is rich with irony:* A year later, the new chief took a national beating over how the department handled Zimmerman’s shooting of high school junior Trayvon Martin. The recording raises new questions about whether *the neighborhood watch volunteer might have received preferential treatment the night of the shooting because he was familiar to officers in the department* ....."

The department was widely condemned for letting Zimmerman go home after being questioned. 

*Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee denied at the time knowing Zimmerman, saying he had no relationship with the police department.* City records show *Lee exchanged emails with Zimmerman* last year, when the neighborhood watch volunteer wrote to the chief to praise the department’s volunteer program coordinator.

A video released last week by the State Attorney prosecuting the case shows Zimmerman *freely walked about the police station unescorted* *three days after the shooting.*

Sanford Police said they have no records showing who Zimmerman rode along with, or if it ever even happened. Zimmerman applied to the ride-along in March 2010.* His application was approved by the top brass of the department, records show, even though a background check showed Zimmerman had a criminal history, though no convictions.*

The community forum Zimmerman spoke at ...... took place in the wake of a scandal involving the son of a police lieutenant, Justin Collison, who was captured on video punching a homeless man named Sherman Ware.
A month went by after the December 2010 attack before any arrests were made. On the same day 21-year-old Collison turned himself in, Police Chief Brian Tooley was forced out.

At the community meeting, Zimmerman also raised concerns about whether Tooley should receive his pension.
*“I would like to state that the law is written in black and white and it should not and cannot be enforced in the gray for those who are in the thin blue line,” Zimmerman said.*

Read more;
Read more here: Zimmerman rode with cops, ripped department - Trayvon Martin - MiamiHerald.com

In the above link are a video of Zimmerman strolling around the Sanford PD unescorted and an audio of him speaking at the community forum.

I* don't think that a lynch mob is going to deal to Zimmerman at all, he's doing a fine job hanging himself, hoist by his own petard!*

----------


## guyinthailand

oh my god! bEnt just  proved by the above article that Zimmerman wasn't justified in shooting Martin!

(not!)

----------


## guyinthailand

> *Quote guyinthailand post #1176 above.*
> 
>  "there is every indication Martin attacked Zimmerman first"
> 
> and;
> "And neither you nor I know for certain who initiated the attack."
> 
> There you go contradicting yourself again!


It's only a contradiction to someone who can't perceive the nuances of a complicated situation.  (did you note the words _'for certain'_ above, bENT)?

----------


## ENT

Next?   :Smile:

----------


## ENT

*Witness protection*

ORLANDO, Fla. -- If George Zimmerman goes to trial in the shooting of Trayvon Martin, a jury will be asked to determine whether the teen's death was a result of self-defense or murder. Anyone who saw or heard part of the deadly conflict could prove vital as jurors seek to piece together who was responsible.

But attorneys on both sides of the case have said they're concerned about what could happen if important civilian witnesses are identified publicly before trial. When a large portion of the evidence in the case was released last week, 22 witnesses were identified only by number.

That includes a South Florida girl who says she was on the phone with Trayvon in the moments before his death and a man who says he saw the teenager on top of Zimmerman as they struggled on the ground.

Media companies are expected to intervene, seeking to force the state to release the names, in what boils down to a struggle between the public's right to know and the defendant's right to a fair trial.

Ultimately, it will be up to Judge Kenneth Lester to decide what the public should see. On June 1, Lester will hear arguments on a motion to seal witness information and other evidence.

Read more:
Identifying witnesses in Trayvon Martin case could lead to legal dispute



In any court case, witnesses are open to manipulation and influence by other members of the public, including the media.
Threats and intimidation often enough, cause witnesses to suffer sudden "amnesia" before the case goes to trial, as they are identified by (generally) the accused's supporters.

The press, in this case, are demanding a right to access the witness IDs
In all fairness, the witnesses also have a ight, to privacy.

Why the hell the evidential reporting was not banned as the matter was _sub judice_ is beyond me to explain.
The risk of jury-pool tainting in the case is now massive, so what kind of sanity allowed this situation to arise?

----------


## ENT

*George Zimmerman made self-incriminating statements to police*

Neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman made statements to police that *help establish his guilt* in the second-degree murder case against him for killing unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin, according to prosecutors. 
The claim in a court filing on Thursday said a number of *Zimmerman's statements were 'contradictory' and 'inconsistent' with other evidence* gathered in the Sanford, Florida case where the 28-year-old is accused of killing the boy, 17, on February 26.
The filing was revealed in a motion to keep some of Zimmerman's statements under seal pending his trial in a case that triggered civil rights protests across the United States, while sparking widespread debate over guns, self-defense laws and U.S. race relations.

*'Defendant (Zimmerman) has provided law enforcement with numerous statements, some of which are contradictory,* and are inconsistent with the physical evidence and statements of witnesses,' the prosecutors said in their court filing.
They said the statements by Zimmerman were admissible in court and 'in conjunction with other statements and evidence help to establish defendant's guilt in this case.'

The court filing offered no details about the statements Zimmerman made to police or other law enforcement officials. It said Florida's public records law had no provision requiring 'the disclosure of a confession' of a defendant.
'The state asserts that this provision* includes an admission of a defendant that could be used against him at trial,*' the filing said.


Read more: George Zimmerman made self-incriminating statements to police | Mail Online

Conflicting reports have been made over GZ's statements about the shooting, some suggesting that he'd admitted his intention to lill Matin.
Another, reputedly made by him, was that he fired two shots, and yet another report that the gun's slide mechanism for reloading was not correctly operating.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Talking of witness protection, if he gets off he's going to need it (or something like), I'm sure.

The Brothers will want to pop a cap into his bottom.

----------


## ENT

I don't think you're wrong at all.

It doesn't matter which way the case pans out, he's in shit.

Maybe he'll become a monk.    :Smile:

----------


## ENT

*SANFORD -- 
How much evidence in the case against George Zimmerman should be released to the public?*

That's the question Judge Kenneth Lester will consider Friday afternoon, when the case heads back into a Seminole County courtroom.
Friday's hearing is scheduled to begin at 1:30 p.m.
Lester has somewhat steered clear of the issue in the past. He has left a lot of the decision-making up to the attorneys, and has said he would step in only if counsel could not come to some sort of agreement.
More than a dozen news outlets are seeking the names and addresses of witnesses, crime scene photos, statements made by George Zimmerman and phone records as it relates to the Feb. 26 shooting death of Trayvon Martin.

News 13 and Bay News 9 are not participating in these motions.
Both prosecutors and the defense are trying to keep much of that evidence out of the public eye, and are asking the judge to keep that evidence sealed.
Zimmerman's attorney, Mark O'Mara, said he is trying to preserve the judicial process by keeping potentially inflammatory information under wraps until Zimmerman's eventual trial.
The Florida state Attorney's Office argued the release of the information would potentially poison the jury pool in Seminole County, much like we saw argued during the Casey Anthony murder trial. The jury in that case was ultimately selected in Pinellas County instead of Orange County.

———————————————

*New attorney joining Zimmerman's defense?
George Zimmerman's defense team may be growing.*

According to published reports, longtime Orlando-area defense attorney Don West will be formally announced Friday as the newest legal ace for the defense.

West is reportedly friends with O'Mara. His latest job was with the federal public defender's office in Orlando, but he has apparently left there to take on the Zimmerman case.
West recently represented political consultant Doug Guetzloe, who was sentenced to 15 months in prison in May for failing to file his taxes two years in a row.


It must be getting tough for O'Mara for him to get his old pal to help him out with GZ's defence.                                                    The info about to be released will most likely be edited sufficiently to avoid endangering witnesses, but not enough to avoid tainting the potential jury pool, that's for sure.
The amount of evidence already released about the case has reportedly caused some jurors to change their accounts of events of the night of the shooting, so more evidence in the public domain is obviously going to influence public opinion again.

----------


## S Landreth

Zimmerman must surrender; bond revoked: Zimmerman must surrender; bond revoked - Nation Wires - MiamiHerald.com

A judge has revoked the bond of the neighborhood watch volunteer charged with killing 17-year-old Trayvon Martin and ordered him returned to jail within 48 hours.

Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester said Friday that George Zimmerman misled the court about how much money he had available when his bond was set for $150,000 in April. Prosecutors claim Zimmerman had $135,000 available that had been raised by a website he set up.

Prosecutors also say he failed to surrender a second passport.

The defense says the finances are an innocent misunderstanding.

Zimmerman has pleaded not guilty to second-degree murder and is claiming self-defense.

----------


## ENT

Good news and about time too!

This proves that the US justice dept. is taking the issue seriously and not bowing to partisan views.
GZ's holding of a second, undeclared passport, as well as substantial slush funds was certainly a matter of concern, until now.
With GZ re-incarcerated, a trial is likely to be set for a date sooner than later, as was previously the case.

Judge Lester has taken his time deliberating this, longer than expected.
I could not see how he could ignore the obvious in the matter, as GZ was spending on a large scale, about $50,000 in the first month after his appeal fund started, compared to his previous expenditure level where he reportedly drew welfare payments at one point.

O'Mara's attempts at controlling the donations GZ collected was almost tantamount to money laundering,  or a game of "chase the lady", IMO, setting up new bank accounts to transferr the cash to and using a smokescreen of social media accounts to divert attention from the evidences of GZ's bizarre behaviour.

Well, the damage was done a long time ago, and O'Mara's attempts at damage control have proven a disastrous failure.
Anticipating this, he called in Don West to help out.

The courts have been lenient with GZ so far, vascilating between the demands of both the public and press and  legal niceties, as pressure mounted for a just decision and answers regarding both the evidence and procedural problems. 

                                                                                                                                                                              Now, the straight edge is being applied to rule this case.

----------


## sabang

He lied about his finances, second passport (flight risk) and thus was in violation of his parole conditions from the outset. Fair call, and a Darwin award for George.

----------


## S Landreth

the problem: Stand your ground: a get-out-of-jail-free card - MiamiHerald.com


Florida is seeing a rise in stand your ground defenses, as lawyers use it in ways legislators never imagined.

Floridas stand your ground law has allowed drug dealers to avoid murder charges and gang members to walk free. It has stymied prosecutors and confused judges.

It has also served its intended purpose, exonerating dozens of people who were deemed to be legitimately acting in self-defense. Among them: a woman who was choked and beaten by an irate tenant and a man who was threatened in his driveway by a convicted felon.

Seven years since it was passed, Floridas stand your ground law is being invoked with unexpected frequency, in ways no one imagined, to free killers and violent attackers whose self-defense claims seem questionable at best.

The shooting death of Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black teen, by a Hispanic neighborhood watch captain has prompted a renewed look at Floridas controversial law.

In the most comprehensive effort of its kind, The Tampa Bay Times has identified nearly 200 stand your ground cases and their outcomes. Among the findings:

 Those who invoke stand your ground to avoid prosecution have been extremely successful. Nearly 70 percent have gone free.

 Defendants claiming stand your ground are more likely to prevail if the victim is black. Seventy-three percent of those who killed a black person faced no penalty compared to 59 percent of those who killed a white.

 The number of cases is increasing, largely because defense attorneys are using stand your ground in ways state legislators never envisioned. It has been used by a self-described vampire in Pinellas County, a Miami man arrested with a single marijuana cigarette, a Fort Myers homeowner who shot a bear and a West Palm Beach jogger who beat a Jack Russell terrier.

 People often go free under stand your ground in cases that seem to make a mockery of what lawmakers intended. One man killed two unarmed people and walked out of jail. Another shot a man as he lay on the ground. Others went free after shooting their victims in the back.

 Similar cases can have opposite outcomes.

Claiming stand your ground, people have used force to meet force outside an ice cream parlor, on a racquetball court and at a school bus stop. Two-thirds of the defendants used guns, though weapons have included an ice pick, shovel and chair leg.

The oldest defendant was an 81-year-old man; the youngest, a 14-year-old Miami youth who shot someone trying to steal his Jet Ski.

Ed Griffith, a spokesman for the Miami-Dade state attorneys office, describes stand your ground as a malleable law being stretched to new limits daily.

If youre a defense counsel, youd be crazy not to use it in any case where it could apply, said Zachary Weaver, a West Palm Beach lawyer.

MATT DILLON

People have had the right to defend themselves from a threat as far back as English common law. The key in Florida and many other states was that they could not use deadly force if it was reasonably possible to retreat.

That changed in 2005 when Gov. Jeb Bush signed into law Florida Statute 776.013. It says a person has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground if he or she thinks deadly force is necessary to prevent death, great bodily harm or commission of a forcible felony like robbery.

Now its lawful to stand there like Matt Dillon at high noon, pull the gun and shoot back, said Bob Dekle, a University of Florida law professor and former prosecutor in North Florida.

Durell Peaden, the former Republican senator from Crestview who sponsored the bill, said the law was never intended for people who put themselves in harms way before they started firing. But the criminal justice system has been blind to that intent.

The new law only requires law enforcement and the justice system to ask three questions in self-defense cases: Did the defendant have the right to be there? Was he engaged in a lawful activity? Could he reasonably have been in fear of death or great bodily harm?

Without convincing evidence to the contrary, stand your ground protection prevails.

If prosecutors press charges, any defendant claiming self-defense is now entitled to a hearing before a judge. At the immunity hearing, a judge must decide based on the preponderance of the evidence whether to grant immunity. Thats a far lower burden than beyond a reasonable doubt, the threshold prosecutors must meet at trial.

Its a very low standard to prove preponderance, said Weaver, the West Palm Beach lawyer. If 51 percent of the evidence supports your claim, you get off.

The outcome of a stand your ground case can turn on many factors: the location of blood spatters, the credibility of witnesses, the relative size and age of the parties involved. But The Times found similar incidents handled in dramatically different ways.

Derrick Hansberry thought John Webster was having an affair with his estranged wife, so he confronted Webster on a basketball court in Dade City in 2005. A fight broke out and Hansberry shot his unarmed rival at least five times, putting him in the hospital for three weeks.

Ultimately, a jury acquitted Hansberry, but not before police and prosecutors weighed in. Neither thought Hansberry could reasonably argue self-defense because he took the gun with him and initiated the confrontation.

A judge agreed, denying him immunity at a hearing.

Compare that case to Deounce Hardens. In 2006, he showed up at Steven Deon Mitchells Jacksonville car wash business and started arguing over a woman. When the fight escalated, Harden shot and killed Mitchell, who was unarmed.

Prosecutors filed no charges.

Similar inconsistencies can be found across the state:

Discrepancies among cases cannot all be explained by small differences in the circumstances. Some are clearly caused by different interpretations of the law.

When Gerald Terrell Jones shot his marijuana dealer in the face in Brandon this year, he was charged with attempted murder and aggravated assault. A jury later acquitted him. But a judge had rejected Jones stand your ground motion, in part, because he was committing a crime at the time.

Elsewhere in the state, drug dealers have successfully invoked stand your ground even though they were in the middle of a deal when the shooting started.

In Daytona Beach, for example, Chief of Police Mike Chitwood used the stand your ground law as the rationale for not filing charges in two drug deals that ended in deaths. He said he was prevented from going forward because the accused shooters had permits to carry concealed weapons and they claimed they were defending themselves at the time.

Were seeing a good law thats being abused, Chitwood told a local paper.

VAGUE WORDING

Disparities have been driven in part by vague wording in the 2005 law that has left police, prosecutors and judges struggling to interpret it.

It took five years for the Florida Supreme Court to decide that judges should base immunity decisions on the preponderance of evidence.

Still unresolved is whether a defendant can get immunity if he illegally has a gun. And courts are divided on what the law is when a victim is retreating.

David Heckman of Tampa lost his bid for stand your ground protection because his victim was walking away when Heckman shot him.

We conclude that immunity does not apply because the victim was retreating, the court said.

But Jimmy Hair, who was sitting in a car when he was attacked, was treated differently. He shot his victim as the man was being pulled from the vehicle. An appeals court gave him immunity.

While many have argued the law does not allow someone to pick a fight and claim immunity, it has been used to do just that. It is broad enough that one judge complained that in a Wild West-type shootout, where everybody is armed, everyone might go free.

MIAMI-DADE CASE

Anthony Gonzalez Jr. was part of a 2010 drug deal that went sour when someone threatened him with a gun. Gonzalez chased the man down and killed him during a high-speed gun battle through Miami streets.

Before the stand your ground law, Miami-Dade prosecutors would have had a strong murder case because Gonzalez could have retreated instead of chasing the other vehicle.

But Gonzalezs lawyer argued he had a right to be in his car, was licensed to carry a gun and thought his life was in danger.

Soon after the filing of a stand your ground motion, prosecutors agreed to a deal in which Gonzalez pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of manslaughter and got three years in prison.

This is certainly a very difficult thing to tell a grieving family member, said Griffith of the Miami-Dade state attorneys office.

Donald Day is a Naples defense lawyer who has handled three stand your ground cases and believes the law is working remarkably well.

Day said the immunity hearings are a critical backstop in self-defense cases that should never go to a jury. Of the cases in The Times database that have been resolved, 23 percent were dismissed by a judge after an immunity hearing. That means 38 defendants facing the prospect of a jury trial were set free by a judge who ruled the evidence leaned in their favor.

A prime example:

The case of Jorge Saavedra a 14-year-old charged with aggravated manslaughter last year in the death of Dylan Nuno. Saavadra, Days client, was in special education classes at Palmetto Ridge High School in Collier County and was often the target of taunts. Nuno, 16, went to the same school.

On Jan. 24, 2011, the two boys were riding the bus home. Saavedra was warned repeatedly that Nuno intended to fight with him when he got off at his regular stop.

Saavedra replied each time that he did not want to fight, but he also pulled out a pocketknife to show friends.

Saavedra got off the bus early with a friend to try to avoid a confrontation. But Nuno and his friends followed, and Nuno punched the younger boy in the back of the head.

For a while, Saavedra kept walking as he was being punched. Then he turned, reached in his pocket for the knife and stabbed Nuno 12 times.

Prosecutors pursued charges despite evidence that Saavedra tried to get away and felt cornered by an older boy and a crowd of teens shouting for a fight. They argued that because he brought a knife to a fistfight, he should be tried for murder.

Without stand your ground, Saavedra would likely have gone to trial. But the law required a hearing before a judge and that judge granted him immunity.

Nunos mother, Kim Maxwell, said her son made a bad decision to throw the first punch, but shes incredulous that it led to his death and even more stunned that his killer went free.

Said Day: You dont have to wait until youre dead before you use deadly force.

----------


## harrybarracuda

As the wife and him testified in court and lied, how come they aren't being charged with perjury?

----------


## ENT

That charge may be added later.

----------


## S Landreth

^^I agree but I think the state has much more on its plate to worry about than a charge of perjury.




> That charge may be added later.


What he said and it might be used in court later to show character.


Less than an hour before his deadline, George Zimmerman surrendered on Sunday to authorities in Sanford just two days after a judge revoked his bond in the Trayvon Martin case for allegedly lying about his finances to the court.

Clad in checkered shirt and jeans, Zimmerman bounded out of a Seminole County sheriff's van at about 1:43 p.m. and was escorted in handcuffs into the Polk Correctional Facility, where he will be confined by himself in a cell.

"He's solemn. He's worried," his lawyer, Mark O'Mara said after Zimmerman turned himself over to authorities in a parking lot near the Hugh Thomas Parkway. "He's worried about himself. He's worried about his wife. He's worried about his family.": A 'contrite' Zimmerman surrenders in Sanford - MiamiHerald.com

----------


## ENT

GZ must be in bits by now.  

Wondering about;

His missus, what's she doing now?.......... His money,who's got it?...... His lawyer,......... what does he want?..... the gay screws in solitary,......he won't want to stay there long,......unless he likes it.     :Smile: 

He's got his meds and his Bible.

----------


## Cujo

> GZ must be in bits by now.  
> 
> Wondering about;
> 
> His missus, what's she doing now?.......... His money,who's got it?...... His lawyer,......... what does he want?..... the gay screws in solitary,......he won't want to stay there long,......unless he likes it.    
> 
> He's got his meds and his Bible.


Not to mention all the brothers looking to get revenge for what was done to one of their own.

----------


## ENT

I reckon they'll try to bribe the screws to give him laxatives and stuff in his tea.

----------


## ENT

*That second passport of GZ's moves around a bit.*

Reportedly "found" when GZ and his Wife are clearing out their house, before his arrest 11th April.

Later, on remand, he asks his wife about it, thinks it's in a bag
She tells him "I have one for you, it's in a safety deposit box".

Bail hearing,12th-20th April, Judge Lester sets terms, including surrender of passport(s), 20th April.
GZ applied for and received a new passport two weeks before his arrest, reportedly.
One passport was surrendered to satisfy the terms of bail.

The other passport (in a security box) that both GZ and his wife knew about more than a week before, was not surrendered.
O'Mara held the passport for at least 30 days before surrendering it last week when GZ's bail was revoked.

So far, O'Mara has "overlooked" two things, the first was the money in GZ'z accounts and next he overlooked a second passport, kept in a safety deposit box.

Was the "overlooked" passport in the safety deposit box at O'Mara's office since _before_ the first bail hearing, was that the one GZ's wife was referring to?



*Reuters*
When Zimmerman surrendered his passport at his April 20 bond hearing, he did so knowing that he had a second unexpired passport, the prosecution also alleged.

In one recorded phone call from jail, the motion said *Zimmerman told his wife he thought the passport was in a bag and she replied, "I have one for you in a safety deposit box."*

"OK, you hold onto that," Zimmerman allegedly told her.

Florida shooter George Zimmerman returns to jail | Reuters




*More questions being asked about O'Mara.*

We are currently investigating claims that Orlando Attorney, CNN Legal Analyst & Commentator, and dedicated Obama supporter Mark Nejame may have actively sought to have George Zimmerman drop his initial legal team Craig Sonner and Hal Uhrig for current Attorney Mark O’Mara.
                                                                                                                                                                                      We have contacted Attorney O’Mara and asked for an interview with him and noted the *claims that O’Mara took George  Zimmerman as a client in order to see to it that Zimmerman is convicted/or pleads guilty to some criminal charge* in the death of Trayvon Martin. If these claims turn out to be true, such acts would be a violation of ethics but worse, would set up a possible “Lincoln Lawyer” type scenario where* the defendants own attorney would be responsible for getting his client convicted.*

As of the writing of this article, despite multiple email requests sent Mr. O’Mara seeking comment, O’Mara has refused to respond. In addition requests were sent to Mr. Sonner, Mr. Uhrig and Mr. NeJame seeking comment on the allegations and as of this date none have chosen to respond.

*O’Mara told the Court that he has been in possession of the second Passport found by Zimmerman and his wife for more than 30 days before* he turned it in and notified the prosecutor’s office.

However, O’Mara argued that the second passport was found while Zimmerman and his wife were cleaning out their house. *The document was immediately given to O’Mara, who accidentally let a month pass before revealing he had the document.*   In addition, O’Mara said that “*Zimmerman has no authority over those [fundraising] funds.*”

Sharpton NAN and I Asked Judge To Review Zimmerman Bond

----------


## alwarner

LOL

This thread was the last place I expected to see a spoiler for Lincoln Lawyer!

for fucks sake

 :Smile:   :Smile:

----------


## ENT

Interesting angle,eh?   :Smile:

----------


## ENT

*The Primrose Path*

(Excerpts from);
*Attorney: Zimmerman's Bail Request Delayed*
5th June 2012 

(CNN) -- Although George Zimmerman's lawyers plan to file a motion asking for a new bail hearing for the murder suspect, the filing has been delayed, defense attorneys said Tuesday.

"Mr. Zimmerman's legal defense team has decided to delay filing a motion for bond," the defense team said Tuesday on its website, GZLegalcase.com. "A hearing will not be scheduled for a couple of weeks, and we will file a motion well in advance of the hearing."

*The filing was delayed for several reasons, lead defense attorney Mark O'Mara said but did not elaborate.* 



*But on Friday, Seminole County Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester Jr. ordered* Zimmerman back to jail, accusing him of being untruthful about how much money he had access to when his bail was set months earlier.

His wife had told the court under oath that the family was indigent. But prosecutors alleged Zimmerman had $135,000.

Citing recorded jailhouse conversations between Zimmerman and his wife, prosecutors alleged the two spoke in code when discussing the money in a credit union account, according to court documents filed Friday by State Attorney Angela B. Corey. The prosecutor filed a document in court Friday indicating that Zimmerman made 151 calls while incarcerated between April 12 and April 22.

Zimmerman "fully controlled and participated in the transfer of money from the PayPal account to defendant and his wife's credit union accounts," Corey said in court records. "This occurred prior to the time defendant was arguing to the court that he was indigent and his wife had no money."

The judge "relied on false representations and statements" by Zimmerman and his wife when the court set his bail at $150,000, Corey said. Zimmerman was required to post only 10% of that.



*Lester appeared angry that the court wasn't told about the money.*

"Does *your client* get to sit there like a potted palm and *let you lead me* *down the primrose path*?" he asked Zimmerman's lawyer. "That's the issue."



"The audio recordings of Mr. Zimmerman's phone conversation while in jail make it clear that Mr. Zimmerman knew a significant sum had been raised by his original fund-raising website," defense attorneys said Monday. "We feel the failure to disclose these funds was caused by fear, mistrust and confusion. ... Mr. Zimmerman understands that this mistake has undermined his credibility, which he will have to work to repair."

The attorneys said Zimmerman did tell his lawyers about the funds five days after the bail hearing, during his first conversation about the fund. "When the defense team learned of the funds, we disclosed this to the court and to the state attorney's office, and the money was transferred to the Legal Defense Fund, which is now independently managed," the defense said.

Of the $204,000 raised by the website, about $150,000 is now in the defense fund, and $30,000 was used "to make the complicated transition from private life in Sanford, Florida, to a life in hiding as a defendant in a high-profile court case," the defense said. The rest -- about $20,000 -- "was kept liquid to provide living expenses for the first several months as the legal process unfolds."

Since the Legal Defense Fund was established last month, another $37,000 has been contributed, defense attorneys said. Of that, about $2,000 went toward household expenses and "less than $300" for the fund management and fees associated with maintaining the bail conditions.

"None of the funds have yet to be allocated to legal expenses," the lawyers said on the website.

More;
Attorney: Zimmerman's Bail Request Delayed



Zimmerman's credibility has been questioned from the beginning of the case. The issue has been the cause of much of the argument on internet and media between  the believers of GZ and the others.

The believers base their credo on GZ's words and the evidential relics, including icons of GZ's martyrdom, the bloody pics.

The others, non-believers, base their dis-belief of GZ's account upon other relics of evidences, almost blasphemy to believers.

Judge Lester is clearly not wearing rose tinted glasses as he views Zimmerman's antics.

----------


## ENT

A "by the book" judge with a sense of humour like Judge Lester's has got to be a mix to avoid.   

O'Mara must have felt sick when Judge Lester accused him and GZ of leading him "down the primrose path".    :Smile:  

{To be "led down the primrose path" is an idiom suggesting that one is being deceived or led astray, often by a hypocrite. The primrose path also refers to someone living a life of luxury apparently linking primroses to libertine indulgence.} Wikipedia.

There won't be a next time.

----------


## ENT

Predictably, GZ continues in his style, nicely described by Judge Lester as "the primrose path".

Declarations of funds in GZ's various accounts, now manipulated by O'Mara into trust funds for "defence", have not been at all transparent.

Sums held by GZ and co. are reported to be between US$135,000 and $241,000 +, increasing at an average of $1,000 a day, spiking again after GZs second remand.

In the first month after GZs appeal fund efforts hit the net, GZ's expenses hit $50,000.
That's more than $1,000 a week.

How much is O'Mara banking on getting from the fund?


*George Zimmerman spends $100 in jail on snack food, 
underwear and toiletries in ONE DAY as he balloons bigger than February figure*
By DAILY MAIL REPORTER
PUBLISHED: 01:38 GMT, 7 June 2012 | UPDATED: 01:41 GMT, 7 June 2012
Comments (0)
Share

The man accused of murdering Florida teen Trayvon Martin has a few things on his mind and apparently, strawberry Pop-Tarts are on the top of his list.
According to an inventory obtained by NBC, George Zimmerman has been spending dozens of dollars on snack food, pens, toiletries and underwear; stocking his cell to the brim.
Since his arrest earlier this year for the hotly debated shooting death, Zimmerman's weight has yo-yoed from gaunt to heavy,...


Read more: George Zimmerman spends $100 in jail on snack food, underwear and toiletries in ONE DAY as he balloons bigger than February figure | Mail Online

----------


## ENT

*George knew he was lying!*

SANFORD, Fla. — *George Zimmerman*, the man charged with second-degree murder in the shooting death of Florida teenager Trayvon Martin,* knew his finances had been misrepresented to the court when he sought to be freed on bond i*n April, his attorney said Monday.


In a statement posted to the official website for the Zimmerman legal case, Mark O'Mara said he would file a motion for a second bond hearing later Monday. (He had not done so by 5 p.m. ET, clerks told NBC News.)
In the statement,* O'Mara said Zimmerman acknowledges that he "allowed his financial situation to be misstated in court.*
Lawyer says George Zimmerman knew judge was misinformed about his finances - U.S. News

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## harrybarracuda

He "allowed his financial situation to be misstated in court"

Is that a really posh way of saying "He lied"*?


*

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## ENT

You could say that.

Worse, he colluded to perjure.

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## harrybarracuda

^ You mean he lied and so did his missus?

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## ENT

And his lawyer.

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## jamescollister

> You could say that.
> 
> Worse, he colluded to perjure.


Don't know much about Florida law, are bail hearings done under oath. If not no perjury. Lying to the court would  not help your case though. Think at best contempt. Imagine if the lawyers were put under oath, a lot more truth would be spoken. Jim

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## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> You could say that.
> 
> Worse, he colluded to perjure.
> 
> 
> Don't know much about Florida law, are bail hearings done under oath. If not no perjury. Lying to the court would  not help your case though. Think at best contempt. Imagine if the lawyers were put under oath, a lot more truth would be spoken. Jim


Lawyers speaking the truth? That's entering the realm of pure fantasy, that is.

 :Smile:

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## ENT

Zimmerman's bond hearing was under oath.

----------


## ENT

Only another three weeks away before GZ gets a crack at getting out again. How's he going to handle the time?                             Spending $100 a day on necessities which include a  high quantity of junk foods plus more Isobrufen along with his Temazepam and Adderall should see an even fatter GZ emerge from the cells in three weeks.
Unless of course he mis-handles his meds and skinny's down as his metabolism rate increases.

Adderall (speed) combined with sugar addiction that GZ seems to have can really make a mess of one.
So, two types of downers (Isobrufen and Temazepam) to handle the speed (Adderall) and the sugar.
That's loading both polar opposites a bit! 



*Zimmerman Could Get Released from Jail June 29*
Thu Jun 7, 2012 6:28pm EDT
George Zimmerman's new bail hearing is set for June 29, when his lawyer will again argue for his client's release from jail before trial.. 

Zimmerman had been free after posting 10% of his original bail, set at $150,000 in April. But a judge revoked Zimmerman's bail last week, after finding Zimmerman and his wife lied about their finances to get a lower bail at the April hearing. Zimmerman returned to jail Sunday.

The June 29 bail hearing will be similar to the April hearing, but this time, Zimmerman will have a lot to prove to the court.

In asking to revoke George Zimmerman's bail, prosecutors alleged he and his wife spoke in code during jail phone calls to conceal their true finances.
Zimmerman's defense team acknowledged the "gravity of this mistake" in a website entry June 4. "Mr. Zimmerman understands that this mistake has undermined his credibility, which he will have to work to repair."
Zimmerman Could Get Released from Jail June 29 | Reuters

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## guyinthailand

> So, two types of downers (Isobrufen and Temazepam)


 'Isobrufen'

Dr. bENT has just invented an entirely new drug!  'Isobrufen'

bENT, not only can you not spell Ibuprofen, but it is certainly not a 'downer'. And where is a report he was taking Ibuprofen?  (like it really matters: Ibuprofen is an NSAID, non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug)

_"Your Honor, the teakdoor poster, bENT, has perjured himself yet again.  Bail denied!"_

----------


## ENT

You're right, ya git, it's Ibuprofen, I miss-read _and_ miss-spelled the news copy, embarrassing    :Smile: 

It's a central nervous system depressant, a pain killer, thus a downer, too many will put you to sleep.
Combining it with temazepam causes increased anxiety and stress.

GZ's medication order, aside from his prescribed *Adderall* and *Temazepam* are;

".... two orders of *ibuprofen,* five orders of multivitamin pills, two orders of *decongestant* and *antacid* tabs, '....

So, fiour types of drugs in his body, an interesting mix, with antacids and vitamins on top.

De-congestant? These often contain *pseudoephedrine,* more speed. Combined with Adderall it will get him pretty high.

The antacid tabs probably for the side effects of ibuprofen.
Vitamins to be on the safe side as I'm sure he's burning up all the Vit Band C in his system.

According to the commissary reports, Zimmerman’s snacks included, among other food, two orders of White Cheddar Cheez-Its, two orders of Fritos, two orders of Cheetos, four orders of Big Grandma’s chocolate chip cookies, one order of Animal Snackers cookies, two packages of Twix, one package of Peanut M&M’s, and five packages of Strawberry Pop-Tarts.
Read more: George Zimmerman Jailhouse Commissary Revealed (DETAILS) | Global Grind

Lots of carbs and sugar in that list! Sugar addiction?

GZ's speedballing his way through.    :mid:

----------


## guyinthailand

Hats off to ya, bENT, for admitting you made a mistake in spelling.  This may be the first time on this forum you've done this.  Admitting a spelling mistake is a small step in the right direction.  Just keep taking those baby steps and you'll learn to walk fully upright someday.

Ibuprofen isn't a 'downer' because it doesn't work the way, for example, opiods work.  It may cause mild drowsiness but not incoordination or loss of consciousness and it doesn't suppress the Central Nervous System (CNS) the way opiods do, interfering with breathing, etc.   

But it does have other risks including erectile dysfunction if used on a long-term basis.  It also can cause severe neutopenia, which is a drastically lowered neutrophil count.  Neutrophils are white blood cells that are essential for health.  Some people taking certain NSAIDs have seen latent Tuberculosis (TB) that they didn't know they had all of a sudden 'come out of hiding' and cause major problems.

And Wikipedia says:

_"Along with several other NSAIDs, ibuprofen has been implicated in elevating the risk of myocardial infarction (heart attack), in particular, among those chronically using high doses.

__Common adverse effects include: nausea, dyspepsia, gastrointestinal ulceration/bleeding, raised liver enzymes, diarrhea, constipation, epistaxis, headache, dizziness, priapism, rash, salt and fluid retention, and hypertension.[15]   A study from 2010 has shown regular use of NSAIDs was associated with an increase in hearing loss.[16]_

_Infrequent adverse effects include: esophageal ulceration, heart failure, hyperkalemia, renal impairment, confusion, and bronchospasm.[15] Ibuprofen can exacerbate asthma sometimes fatally"._

----------


## ENT

Any drug that effects a slowing down is a downer, it doesn't have to be an opiate or its derivatives.

The point is that GZ is wired a lot of the time, and the different uppers and downers in his mix allow for quite a "menu" of effects.
As all four of his main drugs, Adderall, Tamezapam, Ibuprofen and pseudoephedrine(de-congestant) are potentially addictive, one wonders how long GZ has had this habit.

Being diagnosed with ADHD, the reason for his use of Adderall (an upper) and Temazepam (a downer), an added booster of more  speed in the decongestant and the drowsy downer of the pain killer Ibuprofen would certainly be scrambling his brains.
No amount of carbs, vitamins and antacid pills are going to sort his head out or keep him healthy.
At that rate he's just going to burn out.

GZ's in a stressy situation, and his metabolism is working overtime, as he seems to gain and lose weight rapidly.
He needs to chill out, straight.

----------


## S Landreth

some other news related to Zimmerman,........

Orlando man given George Zimmermans cellphone number, gets death threats: Orlando man given George Zimmerman

Talk about an unlucky draw.

An Orlando, Fla., man says his life has been turned upside down since May 7, when T-Mobile reportedly assigned him the cellphone number formerly used by accused Florida murderer George Zimmerman.

It's the same mobile number Zimmerman gave police dispatchers during the notorious 911 call moments before he shot and killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin three months ago.

The 911 call (with Zimmerman heard spelling out the number) has since been widely circulated by the media and on the Internet.

The Orlando Sentinel reports that Junior Alexander Guy, the man who inherited Zimmerman's old number, immediately started getting weird calls at all hours of the night.

"You murderer!"

"You deserve to die!"

Guy, who works at an Orlando wastewater plant, told the newspaper he got an estimated 70 threatening calls. He and his mother were forced to move out of their home.

"I was not only afraid for my life, I was afraid for my mother's," said Guy, a 49-year-old man who the newspaper reported has himself served prison time for drug trafficking.

By the ninth day (9 days?, what was he waiting for?), Guy said he'd had enough and turned the phone over to an attorney. His lawyer has reportedly been unsuccessful in seeking damages for his client, but T-Mobile did credit Guy's account and waived the early termination fee.

The old Zimmerman number, T-Mobile told the Sentinel, has now been retired.

yeah now they do it. ya think they would have better sense  :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

Why were they forced to move from their home, or was that part of the law suit?

 :Smile:

----------


## jamescollister

> Why were they forced to move from their home, or was that part of the law suit?


Maybe he was still involve din his old trade and he didn't wants cops keeping an eye on him for safety. Jim

----------


## ENT

> Why were they forced to move from their home, or was that part of the law suit?


GZ got hassled as soon as his address and phone # got known.

----------


## harrybarracuda

It was a mobile phone, do they just give addresses out to anyone these days?

----------


## ENT

I think it was some of the new BPs that spread GZ's and his parents' house and phone numbers around just after SA Angela Corey started action for GZ's arrest.

----------


## ENT

This could turn the case into a real cliff hanger.


*Will jury, or judge, decide George Zimmerman's fate?*
Zimmerman's lawyers can request a hearing under Florida's controversial 'stand your ground' law.
June 10, 2012

The nation's fixation on the shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin has led many to question whether an impartial jury could be found for the trial of his killer, George Zimmerman.

*But it's possible a judge, not a jury, will decide Zimmerman's fate.* He says he fired in self-defense, and many expect his lawyers will eventually ask for an immunity hearing under Florida's controversial "stand your ground" law.

Often described as a "minitrial" in which the burden of proof is on the defense and the judge serves as jury, such hearings are unlike other criminal-justice proceedings.

*The lawyers' roles are reversed, the burden of proof is low, and the stakes couldn't be higher.*

"If the judge dismisses the case, it's game over," says Eric Schwartzreich, a Fort Lauderdale attorney who has represented multiple "stand your ground" defendants since the law was passed in 2005.
The law gives defense lawyers "two bites at the apple," Schwartzreich said. "You can ask the judge for immunity, and you can argue the 'stand your ground' law with the jury."

*The verdict is up to the judge.* And because the burden to prove "stand your ground" is on the defense, the lawyers' traditional roles are flipped, with the defense on the offensive.

At least in theory, the defense doesn't have much to prove. In a criminal trial, the state must prove the crime "beyond a reasonable doubt." In an immunity hearing, defense lawyers need only "a preponderance of the evidence" to win the case.

Excerpts from;
George Zimmerman stand your ground: In Trayvon Martin shooting case, stand-your-ground hearing likely looms - OrlandoSentinel.com

----------


## pickel

> It was a mobile phone, do they just give addresses out to anyone these days?


His name and address were probably in the local phone book.

----------


## ENT

The phone number and address came from GZ's call to the 911 dispatcher.

GZ gives his house number, 1950, as well as saying that he lived in the area.




Then;
March 26, 2012
*City of Sanford Publishes George Zimmerman Info*

It has come to our attention while working on this article that the *City of Sanford, Florida is responsible for disclosing the personal phone number of George Zimmerman* to the very individuals who are calling for violence against Zimmerman. We have just contacted the City of Sanford, City Manager Office to notify them they published Mr. Zimmerman’s personal phone number on the 911 Call History put on the City’s web page regarding the Trayvon Martin shooting. It appears that Zimmerman has since publication of his phone number had the number changed.

Why on earth the City of Sanford would publish Zimmerman’s phone number knowing the threats and calls for violence made towards him simply cannot be explained. The number appears on page 2 of the 911 call history. HERE

*In addition we have included links to the 911 calls received by the Sanford Police on Feb 26, 2012 on the Trayvon Martin shooting.*
City of Sanford Florida Publishes George Zimmerman Info

Later;
Spike Lee tweeted a wrong address. .

*Spike Lee retweets George Zimmerman’s address*
Posted at 8:10 am on March 24, 2012 by Twitchy Staff | View Comments
Here are screencaps of filmmaker Spike Lee’s two retweets:
Spike Lee retweets George Zimmerman’s address | Twitchy

He apologises then;
"I Deeply Apologize To The McClain Family For Retweeting Their Address," wrote Lee on his Twitter feed. "It Was A Mistake. Please Leave The McClain's In Peace. Justice in Court."
Spike Lee sorry for retweeting false George Zimmerman address | Film | guardian.co.uk

----------


## harrybarracuda

Ah, Spike Lee. Utter dickhead, so no surprise there. I hope they sue the nads off him, he can afford it.

----------


## ENT

A born again black Muslim, follower of Malcolm X's philosophy.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Ibuprofen, 
> 
> It's a central nervous system depressant, a pain killer, thus a downer, too many will put you to sleep.


Ibuprofen is in no way, shape or form a 'depressant' or a 'downer'.  It is a Non Steroidal Anti Inflammatory Drug (NSAID).

If you want to learn what drugs are considered depressants or 'downers' then read here
Depressant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Because of the constant confusion he sows, bENT, however, could be considered a 'downer'.

----------


## ENT

Ibuprofen is a pain killer and amplifies the effect of temazepam, a "downer".

It is not a stimulant or "upper", having its opposite effect, it can make you sleepy.

Taking the two together is not recommended.

The same applies to taking adderall and psdeoedoephedrine decongestant, they interact, boosting the speed effect.

So he's loaded.

No wonder he needs antacids and vitamins and lots of sugar.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Ibuprofen is a pain killer and amplifies the effect of temazepam, a "downer".


Ibuprofen is an analgesic only primarily when there is inflammation involved, hence the term for Ibuprofen, NSAID.

Ibuprofen does *not* amplify the effects of tamazepam.

bENT, a majority of your posts contain bullshit, lies and misinformation.  You just make stuff up as you go along.

----------


## jamescollister

Makes no difference what dope GZ war on in the long term, he is charged vwith murder 2. They have to prove intent and that means he went out with the intention to kill someone. . What are they going to say anyone taking these medis should be arrested for attempted murder. Think they powers that be just over reacted and a manslaughter charge may have been viable, maybe. Still a lot to come out yet. Jim

----------


## S Landreth

Shellie Zimmerman, wife of Trayvon Martin killer, arrested on perjury charge - U.S. News




Shellie Zimmerman, wife of George Zimmerman, who killed Trayvon Martin, was arrested Tuesday on one count of perjury, the Seminole County, Fla., Sheriff’s Department said.

Deputies arrested Shellie Zimmerman, 25,  about 3:30 p.m. ET, after they were advised by the office of State Attorney Angela Corey that a warrant had been issued.

She was booked into John E. Polk Correctional Facility and released on $1,000 bond, officials said.

more in the Herald: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/06/1...h-perjury.html

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> Ibuprofen is a pain killer and amplifies the effect of temazepam, a "downer".
> 
> 
> Ibuprofen is an analgesic only primarily when there is inflammation involved, hence the term for Ibuprofen, NSAID.
> 
> Ibuprofen does *not* amplify the effects of tamazepam.


Zimmerman was diagnosed with ADHD.
Prescribed;
Adderall a day time drug for ADHD to help him stay alert. It is *addictive.*
Using it in the evening will cause sleeplessness.
And;
Temazepam is to be taken in the evening before sleep. It is* addictive.*
Taking it too early and staying awake will cause anxiety and irritability.
Also used;
Ibuprofen, for pain relief, to be used spariingly. It is *addictive*.
Too much causes stomach ulcers and bleeding, dwowsiness, irritability.
And;
Decongestant for breathing problem to be used sparingly.
Over use acts as a stimulant and is *addictive*
Antacid to counter acid stomach, a likely result from over use of Ibuprofen.

A combination of Adderall (speed), decongestant (speed) and Temazepam (opiate) and Isubrofen is a *speedball.*

GZ left his house in his truck that night on a short errand. Why was he sitting a while in his truck 10 minutes later in the rain instead?
Why was he so paranoid about Martin?

Was he having a sneaky speedball and it kicked in just before Martin arrrived?

If GZ was speedballing and/or had taken his Temazepam too early that night, no wonder he got stuck into Martin.

Whichever way you look at it, GZ's drug combination and its physical and psychological effects will impact negatively on his ADHD.

----------


## ENT

Records show Shellie Zimmerman in *the days before the hearing transferred $74,000* in eight smaller amounts ranging from $7,500 to $9,990, *from her husband's credit union account to hers,* according to an arrest affidavit. It also shows that $47,000 was transferred from George Zimmerman's account to his sister's in the days before the bond hearing.
*Four days after he was released* on bond, Shellie Zimmerman *transferred more than $85,500 from her account into her husband's account,* the affidavit said. The affidavit also said that jail call records show that George Zimmerman instructed her to "pay off all the bills," including an American Express and Sam's Club card.

A state attorney investigator met with credit union officials and learned that she had transfer control of her husband's account.
Jeffrey Neiman, a former federal prosecutor now in private practice, said cash transactions in excess of $10,000 usually trigger a reporting requirement by the bank to multiple government agencies - including the IRS.

"If Mrs Zimmerman intentionally structured the financial transactions in a manner to keep the offense under $10,000, not only may she have committed perjury in the state case, but she also may have run afoul of several federal statutes and could face serious federal criminal charges," Neiman wrote in an email to The Associated Press.


Read more: George Zimmerman's wife charged with perjury - Story - World - 3 News


GZ didn't lie under oath about the money as he was not asked about it, his wife was, so she carries the can for that "mistake".

Looks like more coming her way from the FBI on the issue.

"Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.", Shakespeare.

----------


## harrybarracuda

No such charge as conspiracy to commit perjury then? It's obvious he knew she was lying.

----------


## ENT

I'm not sure about that, but I'm sure the Feds will have that angle sorted out as they're not restricted by state political squabbling.

If there is such a possible charge, they'll probably suggest that the state deal with it before proceeding on it separately later.

----------


## harrybarracuda

^^^^ Are you inventing new drugs again? You should copyright some of these names, they sound well handy.

Nurse, 50mg of Isubrofen stat!


 :Smile:

----------


## ENT

Typo, sorry Isobrufen.    :Rolleyes:

----------


## harrybarracuda

Have you got any Narcopeptin. Or Paradequadin.

Hey look, I can do it too!

 :smiley laughing:

----------


## ENT

Do you wear glasses too?   :Smile:

----------


## S Landreth

Judge: Zimmerman statements can be released - MiamiHerald.com

ORLANDO, Fla. -- Statements a former neighborhood watch leader made to detectives after he fatally shot Trayvon Martin can be released to the public, a judge ruled Wednesday.

But Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester said that the identities of witnesses who observed the fatal confrontation in February between George Zimmerman and the 17-year-old Martin can stay private, provided the witnesses haven't been identified previously.

"The innocent witnesses who have performed their civic or moral duty by reporting what they observed to law enforcement should not have their lives turned upside-down for having done so," Lester wrote.

Lester's ruling was in response to a challenge news media groups, including The Associated Press, filed against efforts to seal some records.

Prosecutors and Zimmerman's defense attorney had wanted to keep both Zimmerman's statements and the witnesses' identities private. They had argued that their public release would jeopardize Zimmerman's chance of getting a fair hearing when he is tried for second-degree murder. Zimmerman claims the shooting was in self-defense.

The judge said disclosing Zimmerman's statements to police detectives wouldn't jeopardize his ability to get a fair trial. He also ruled that tests given to Zimmerman after the shooting could be released, as well as some crime-scene photos and Zimmerman's recorded telephone calls from jail.

Some of those jailhouse calls involve Zimmerman directing his wife, Shellie, to transfer funds raised on a website to different bank accounts. Those jailhouse calls were cited by prosecutors, who successfully asked the judge to revoke Zimmerman's $150,000 bond earlier this month. Prosecutors accuse Zimmerman and his wife of misleading the judge about how much money they had available for his bond at a bail hearing in April. Shellie Zimmerman was arrested Tuesday on a charge of making a false statement under oath.

Zimmerman has a second bond hearing scheduled for the end of the month.

----------


## robuzo

^Obviously, as a retarded man Zimmerman should be given some slack.

----------


## S Landreth

> ^Obviously, as a retarded man Zimmerman should be given some slack.


Im thinking, where are they going to find a jury for his trail in Florida? 

Everyone knows about it and if you havent been following it or the Stand Your Ground debate, you might be so far out of touch, no one (either side) would want you sitting as a juror.

----------


## ENT

Getting an uncontaminated jury pool together was going to be problem almost from the beginning, which is why I questioned the US system where all evidences for a trial are not treated as _sub judice_, but as free information.

Very possibly, Judge Lester may hear and rule on this case without a jury

Not a pleasant option for him.

Another possibility, he may even call for an anonymous jury as well as anonymity for the witnesses.

----------


## harrybarracuda

^ They should get the one that did the OJ trial.

 :smiley laughing:

----------


## ENT

USA has had a few of those anonymous jury trials since OJ's time.

Maybe it's time to drop jury trials and settle for a panel of judges instead.

Probably safer.

----------


## jamescollister

Trouble with judge only trails is judges uphold the laws as set in statute. As we all know Governments make lots of laws, but seldom repeal old laws. If a law states that you should be lynched from the nearest tree for wearing a loud shirt, a jury would find not guilty, but a judge would be honour bound to say the law is the law and he must enforce the statutes. Take him to the nearest tree. You would need to change the way the judicary hears the law, not just guilty because the law says so . but guilty because it was wrong. Why have law makes in the first place if the Judges decide right and wrong. Jim

----------


## ENT

That is why I think a panel of judges is better than one, they can turn the whole matter over thoroughly and base on a balance of precedent and reasonable plea of circumstance.
One judge on his own can not share the burden of decision making to appear impartial and fair, very difficult.

Judge Lester is, I think, going to throw the book at both prosecution and defence, as he has so far shown an inclination to.

From all accounts, Zimmerman is not going to walk easily unless there is some sort of mis-trial.

At the same time the SYG debate is raging, there's a lot of pressure on Lester, which is why he fired off at O'Mara about the "primrose path".

----------


## jamescollister

> That is why I think a panel of judges is better than one, they can turn the whole matter over thoroughly and base on a balance of precedent and reasonable plea of circumstance.
> One judge on his own can not share the burden of decision making to appear impartial and fair, very difficult.
> 
> Judge Lester is, I think, going to throw the book at both prosecution and defence, as he has so far shown an inclination to.
> 
> From all accounts, Zimmerman is not going to walk easily unless there is some sort of mis-trial.
> 
> At the same time the SYG debate is raging, there's a lot of pressure on Lester, which is why he fired off at O'Mara about the "primrose path".


One Judge or 20, just spreads the responsibility. They are there to decide on points of law, not to decide right or wrong. Not from the US, but have seen juries find people innocent when clearly they have broken a law. While a jury of your peers sits a person has a chance to prove that he/she was justified in there actions, even when the law says no. In this case a fair trail my not be possible, due to the press, then there will be appeals on appeals if a guilty verdict, or if innocent is returned the Feds may go for a race hate crime. Just a big TV ratings game, no winner all round. Jim

----------


## ENT

Usually, trial by judge alone is the prerogative of the defendant, in this case Zimmerman, if he thinks that a trial by jury is inadvisable.
A defendant may be charged to a magistrate's court presided by a judge, but opt for a jury trial as the best option also.

Judge Lester, it seems, so far has no option but to continue with a jury trial in this case, IMO

The purpose of jury trials is to ensure that the populace has a voice in the judicial process, and have the freedom to decide a person's guilt or innocence, and that a defendant does not fall under the often inflexible interpretations of existing laws.

Any argument presented for consideration may be questioned by the judge, and it is up to the defendant to seek precedence in law to support his plea.

In a judge only trial, the judge will in fact ask the defendant to show cause for the case to be discharged or decided in his favour.
The judge must then abide by the precedent shown, he can not arbitrarily decide the case based on political or social prejudice.

This is where a lawyer with extensive experience in search of historical precedence in some rather odd cases is a decided asset, sas precedence in law invariably over rules a decision based on current practice alone.

The judge, in fact is ruled by law.

THis is also why one does not simply study law, one must read law (extensively) to follow the reasoning for a judges decision to attain a degree in law.

----------


## Thaihome

> USA has had a few of those anonymous jury trials since OJ's time.
> 
> Maybe it's time to drop jury trials and settle for a panel of judges instead.
> 
> Probably safer.


 
You actually have a good point though they don't have to be judges. Simple IQ test would likely be enough.

TH


_Trial by Jury of Your Peers_




_In our United States of America if you are accused of a crime and taken to court, you have the Constitutional right to a trial by a jury of your peers. True, you would be tried by a jury of your peers, but what the Constitution actually says is this: In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed. . . (Amendment 6.) Note that nothing at all is said or implied about a jury of peers. The kind of impartial jury the Founding Fathers had in mind was not one randomly made up of average folks like your neighbors down the street. Rather, it was to be judiciously selected from the better-informed, if not educated, and fair-minded members of the community, an English Common Law practice harking back to the 12th century. In modern-day America, that tradition has taken a different twist. Jurors selected for criminal trials nowadays are not just our peers in the common sense of the word, but also, by design, the lesser informed and more gullible of the lot. For a recent rape trial in my town, three of the jurors selected were acquaintances of mine: a middle-aged video game aficionado, an auto-parts store clerk whom Ive never seen without his NASCAR cap, and an assistant pre-school teacher who records and saves her favorite TV show, American Idol, for repeated viewing. The other nine, I am told, were of a similar ilk. All law-abiding, hard-working folk, your ideal peers. Whether a democratic trial by a jury of our peers is an improvement over the impartial jury favored by our elitist Founding Fathers is open to question. You judge._

----------


## ENT

Yes, IQ tests or personality profiling could weed out those unfit for jury service.

Also, in the quote you give, the emphasis is upon a _fair_ trial, not one of your peers, as that may see a guilty person walk free, or an innocent condemned by his peers through social prejudice.

----------


## Thaihome

^ All a moot point anyway. The trial by Judge that is being considered is not a trial, but the hearing on the Stand Your Ground Defense, right or wrong, that will likely give Zimmerman immunity to prosecution once it is held.
TH

----------


## ENT

As I'm unfamiliar with procedures under US law, I can not comment much on how things will go re. one form of hearing or another. The complexities arise, I assume, from amendments to the Ameircan constitution , and the fact that the US has both federal and state laws to cover any case arising.

I simply must read more to understand such, but right now, time to do so is in short supply. :Smile:

----------


## ENT

George Zimmerman’s wife becomes focus of attention

SANFORD, Fla. — George and Shellie Zimmerman struggled with money problems. The year they married, he was sued, accused of failing to pay a credit card bill. Three years later, she was sued for the same thing.

Both were in and out of community college, records show, and spent their first years together in a home owned by her parents.
Then their lives were turned upside down — George Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin, an unarmed 17-year-old, in February — and the money began pouring in.

What is known about her?
She is a 25-year-old Longwood native who wants to be a nurse and, when pressed, aggressively defends her husband. Although George Zimmerman has been vilified, especially on the Internet, for killing Martin, she testified at his bond hearing in April that she had never seen him angry.

"Do you believe he’s a danger to the community?" asked his attorney, Mark O’Mara.
"No, I do not," she said.

She and family members did not respond to phone calls and email from the Orlando Sentinel, but acquaintances described her as respectful, polite and a good match for Zimmerman.

George Michael Zimmerman married Shellie Nicole Dean in November 2007 in Daytona Beach, according to public records. He was 24. She was 20 and a cosmetologist who specialized in facials.
She enrolled at Seminole State College — formerly Seminole Community College — in the fall of 2008 and left the school in the fall of 2010, their records show.

Olivia Bertalan, a neighbor the couple helped after a burglary, described Shellie Zimmerman as a "stay-at-home student."
George Zimmerman&rsquo;s wife becomes focus of attention - BostonHerald.com

Nothing really newsworthy in this excerpt from the link above here, just a bit of background fill-in.

----------


## koman

^
Well regardless if he is found guility of murdering Martin or not.....he should be put to death for not paying his credit card balance FFS.....  wife too....

----------


## ENT

I feel sorry for her, actually, she seems to be the patsy, being goffer for GZ.

One rainy evening she was sitting at home, maybe studying, maybe watching TV, waiting for George to come home for dinner.......

----------


## ENT

*SYG Law, a precedent established.*

Raul Rodriguez has been convicted of murder of a neighbour, after pleading his right to "defend" himself under the  SYG law.
How this case will impact on Zimmerman's is yet to be seen. By the time GZ has spent two years in solitary waiting for a trial, the SYG law will have been seriously amended as to avoid further misinterpretations of the controversial SYG  law.

Judge Lester will draw upon such preceding cases as reference to support his final judgement in Zimmerman's case, as will the prosecution.


*HOUSTON (AP) — A retired Houston-area firefighter faces up to life in prison after a jury convicted him of murder for gunning down his unarmed neighbor during a dispute over a noisy house party.*

Raul Rodriguez, 47, argued he was within his rights under Texas' version of a stand-your-ground law when he killed Kelly Danaher in 2010. The trial's punishment phase, which will include further testimony, was scheduled to begin Thursday.

Rodriguez was angry about the noise coming from Danaher's home, where the family was having a birthday party for Danaher's wife and young daughter. Rodriguez went to the home and got into an argument with Danaher, a 36-year-old elementary school teacher, and two other men who were at the party.

In a 22-minute video he recorded the night of the shooting, Rodriguez can be heard telling a police dispatcher "my life is in danger now" and "these people are going to go try and kill me." He then said "I'm standing my ground here," and shot Danaher after somebody appeared to grab his camera. The two other men were wounded.

*The law also says a person using force can't provoke the attacker or be involved in criminal activity at the time.*

Johnson said Rodriguez can't hide behind the stand-your-ground law because* he provoked the confrontation and then brandished his weapon against an unarmed individual, which is a crime.*

But defense attorney Neal Davis said he doesn't believe Rodriguez did anything illegal. He said Rodriguez went to complain and was confronted by Danaher and the two other partygoers, and that he didn't pull out his gun until he was standing in the street and Danaher approached him in a threatening manner.
Texas man in stand-your-ground case could get life - US News and World Report


There are some similarities here to Zimmerman's contentions, as he initiated the confrontation by pursuing and approaching Trayvon Martin while armed, mistakenly convinced that the "suspicious" looking teenager was "up to no good". When challenged by Martin, Zimmerman killed him.

The victim in the Texas case was_ also_ approached, by an armed Rodriguez, who, when confronted by the victim, shot him in "self defence" under the SYG law. 


*GZ's bail and bond hearing.*

Later this month on 29th June, Zimmerman's new bond application will be heard by Judge Lester.
At GZ's first application for bail on bond, where he, his wife and O'Mara colluded to lie about the money available for the bond, the prosecution asked for the bond to be set at $1,000,000, as they deemed that GZ had the 10% deposit, $100,000 for that amount, which, of course he had, and more, $204,000  having been donated to GZ by that time. The prosecution, in their leniency and probably knowing that he had far more than he needed, were snubbed and lied to by Shellie Zimmerman, assisted by GZ and O'Mara.

In GZ's next application for bail, it's more than likely that the original prosecution demand for $1,000,000 bond may be repeated, if Judge Lester grants Zimmerman bail.

O'Mara will of course be spitting nails, as the GZ defence fund is used appropriately to cover the bond deposit, leaving only $100,000 or so to cover his expenses over two years. O'Mara has said that the cost of defending GZ will be around one million dollars.

I'm afraid that he is going to have to pay for that himself.
He _did_ state at the outset that he was handling GZ's defence _pro bono_.    :Smile: 


*Shellie Zimmerman.*

If convicted of perjury, Shellie Zimmerman will face up to five years in jail.
She didn't know what she was getting into when following GZ's twisted little plan to deceive the authorities.
Her misplaced loyalties are going to be tested over the coming years as she and George could potentially not see the light of freedom over the time it takes for the case to go to trial.

George in his cell of enforced involuntary celibacy, while Shellie will be in a women's prison with all the other bad girls. :mid:  

*Mark O'Mara.*
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, O'Mara will be frantically trying to earn an income to cover his expenses.
It's a funny old world, the unexpected is the only thing that can be safely expected.

----------


## S Landreth

George Zimmerman's jail calls made public - MiamiHerald.com

George Zimmerman’s wife, Shellie, is facing perjury charges for lying under oath about money he raised online, but bank records and jail phone calls released Monday show her husband called the shots behind an elaborate, if sloppy, scheme to hide money.

The records also show the second-degree murder charge was a big money-maker for Zimmerman: The day after his arrest, he transferred more than $75,000 in donations to his account in a single day. He used at least $10,000 of it to pay off credit card and other bills, the bank records show.

“Ah man, that feels good,” he said to his wife in a recorded phone call the day after his arrest. “That there are people in America that care.”

His wife told him so many contributions arrived to his online PayPal site requesting donations on the day of his arrest that the site kept crashing.

“…People were just trying to give you, you know, words of support and kindness,” Shellie Zimmerman said.

“Good. Wow, that is awesome,” he said.

Later he tells her: “I’m so happy to know that you’re gonna be okay.”

His wife assures him, “After this, is all over, you’re gonna be able to just, have a great life.”

Zimmerman faces a second-degree murder charge for the Feb. 26 shooting of Trayvon Martin, an unarmed Miami Gardens teenager. Zimmerman claims that the teen punched him in an unprovoked attack. His nose broken and head slightly wounded, Zimmerman shot Trayvon once in the chest as the two wrestled on the grass.

For some, the case quickly became a symbol of the perils of racial profiling. For others, it epitomized the media’s rush to judgment. After six weeks of controversy, Zimmerman was arrested by a specially appointed prosecutor, and became a hero to gun-rights advocates nationwide.

His arrest came about three days after he set up a website that sought donations. Records show the American public (suckers) offered such an outpouring of support that his credit union account, which had a $5 balance on April 1, swelled 27 days later to $128,898. The balance ballooned even after the couple paid off credit cards and frantically transferred funds out of the account.

Zimmerman ultimately gave the balance to his defense attorney to create a trust in his name.

On six phone calls Zimmerman made to his wife from jail, he can be heard giving his wife repeated step-by-step instructions on changing the password and security questions to his online donations account. They talk in simple code, referring to PayPal as “Peter Pan.”

He repeatedly reminded her to use a password she could remember, to write it down several places and to set her phone alarm to remind her daily to call a friend helping administer the account. The friend was helping Shellie Zimmerman transfer money from PayPal to Zimmerman’s account. From there, it went to her account, and from her account to cash.

Shellie Zimmerman was arrested last week on a felony charge of lying on the stand during her husband’s bond hearing on April 20.

“It’s all about George Zimmerman’s credibility,” said Benjamin Crump, a Tallahassee attorney Trayvon’s parents hired to help push for criminal charges. “It is George Zimmerman who conspires and coaches others to execute a scheme to hide money and a passport ultimately deceiving the court.… He is the one telling everybody what to do.”

Zimmerman’s defense attorney said he filed a motion in court Monday objecting to the planned release of 145 other jail phone calls that are unrelated to Zimmerman’s bond.

“We are compiling a list of other potentially relevant phone calls and we will present them when appropriate,” Mark O’Mara wrote on his website.

His motion to hold off on the 145 other calls will be discussed at a June 29 bond hearing.

Zimmerman had been granted a $150,000 bond but it was revoked June 1 when prosecutors presented evidence of the ploy to hide money.

This article will be updated as more information becomes available.

----------


## ENT

Georgie boy is being revealed as the twister he really is, a con man, a fraud, a liar , a manipulator, one who can not be relied upon to give an honest account of his actions, including that which transpired the night he killed Trayvon Martin, on the outrageous pretext that the act was in self defence.
The thug GZ, deserves the heaviest hand of the law to descend upon him.

----------


## Cujo

> Georgie boy is being revealed as the twister he really is, a con man, a fraud, a liar , a manipulator, one who can not be relied upon to give an honest account of his actions, including that which transpired the night he killed Trayvon Martin, on the outrageous pretext that the act was in self defence.
> The thug GZ, deserves the heaviest hand of the law to descend upon him.


He popped a cap in that negros bottom.
Give a guy a break.

----------


## ENT

^  :Trolling:   Sick troll.

----------


## ENT

*More insights into George and Shellie Zimmermann's scamming.*

*Zimmer is a liar he evn lied on his website* 
"I have created a Paypal account solely linked on this website as I would like to provide an avenue to thank my supporters personally and ensure that any funds provided are used only for living expenses and legal defense, in lieu of my forced inability to maintain employment. I will also personally, maintain accountability of all funds received. I reassure you, every donation is appreciated."


*"in lieu of my forced inability to maintain employment"..* 

He lied again, he wasn't working the day of the incident..and was not employed for awhile and got fired from his last job as well for his aggressive bullying character.

George Zimmerman jailhouse calls show he told wife to buy bulletproof vest - Crimesider - CBS News



*Zimmerman's calls from jail to Shellie, his wife.*

*Pay everything totally off,* the Sam's Club card, everything except for those two," referring to a car insurance bill and a water bill that could not be paid online.

In a call the following day, Shellie Zimmerman confirms she paid the credit cards. "I called all those companies to see the balances and I paid them all off," she said.

"I even paid, like, your mom, 'cause you knew you were paying her monthly. I, uh, I even paid my school."

Elsewhere in the conversations, the couple is heard making arrangements for regular transfers from Zimmerman's bank accounts into those of his wife and one set up by his sister Susie. Prosecutors say Shellie Zimmerman received $74,000 and his sister $47,000.
George Zimmerman's prison calls show plans with wife Shellie to pay off bills | World news | guardian.co.uk



“After this is all over, you’re going to be able to just have a great life,” Shellie Zimmerman said.

“We will,” George Zimmerman replied. “I’m excited.”

“Yeah, you should be. You should be excited,” Shellie Zimmerman said.

“I wish you were here, of course,” she said.

“I will be,” he said.

“Isn’t it crazy how something like this just makes you put everything in perspective in life?” Shellie Zimmerman said. “It’s amazing how insignificant the things we stress out over are.”

“I agree,” he said.
What do you think of Zimmerman&#039;s conversation with his wife about the donations (and bulletproof vests)? - Yahoo!7 Answers

----------


## S Landreth

Sanford police chief is terminated over the Trayvon Martin case - MiamiHerald.com




The Sanford police chief who made the decision not arrest George Zimmerman immediately following his fatal shooting of Miami-Dade teen Trayvon Martin four months ago has been terminated.

Sanford City Manager Norton Bonaparte confirmed in a news release Wednesday night that Police Chief Bill Lee has been relieved of his duties effective immediately.

I have come to this decision in light of the escalating divisiveness that has taken hold of the city, the manager said in the statement. The decision was made following a meeting earlier in the day.

The shooting of the 17-year-old has sparked a national outrage and movement and has painted the Central Florida city in an unfavorable light across the country.

After much thoughtful discussion and deep consideration for the issues facing the city of Sanford, I have determined the police chief needs to have the trust and respect of the elected officials and the confidence of the entire community, Bonaparte said in the statement. . We need to move forward with a police chief that all the citizens of Sanford can support..

A nationwide search will begin for a replacement.

According to Lees employment agreement, he will receive a severance of three months and one weeks salary, in addition to any earned time off.

----------


## jamescollister

> Sanford police chief is terminated over the Trayvon Martin case - MiamiHerald.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Sanford police chief who made the decision not arrest George Zimmerman immediately following his fatal shooting of Miami-Dade teen Trayvon Martin four months ago has been terminated.
> 
> Sanford City Manager Norton Bonaparte confirmed in a news release Wednesday night that Police Chief Bill Lee has been relieved of his duties effective immediately.
> 
> ...


Jumping the gun on the guy. If GZ walks the cop made the right call at the beginning and would have saved the tax payers millions, if GZ is convicted different story, Wonder if the people who pushed the case, spending millions of tax payers dollars will lose their jobs if the cop was right in the first place. Jim

----------


## ENT

I think the city managers can see that GZ is in fact gonna fry.

Judge Lester has had enough of the bullshit and GZ and his missus have not changed their attitude from the beginning, and it's all out in the public.

Who the hell will want to associate themselves with GZ and his likes, such as Bill Lee now?

----------


## leemo

IF what you say is true about GZ's attitude it doesn't make him guilty of murder or the prosecutor's job any easier to convict. 

I expect him to walk and parts of the US to burn.

----------


## jamescollister

> I think the city managers can see that GZ is in fact gonna fry.
> 
> Judge Lester has had enough of the bullshit and GZ and his missus have not changed their attitude from the beginning, and it's all out in the public.
> 
> Who the hell will want to associate themselves with GZ and his likes, such as Bill Lee now?


Trail hasn't even begun yet and being a shit head is not a crime that I  knew of. Innocent til proven guilty, the prosecution has to prove he  went out to kill, not that he moved money or said this or that about  other things. Doubt the jail phone recording will even be allowed on the  money things, not relevant to the case. Whether he had 2 passports and  lied at the bail hearing is again of no relevance to the case.
The prosecution may try to get some of it into evidence in an attempt to  discredit GZ, but GZ does not even have to take the stand, if he does  not give evidence they can not discredit the truthfulness of it.
Lots of playing the public / media game, that's for the good of the lawyers who want their names know for personal reasons.
If the judge is as fair as they say much of the information made public  will not be allowed as it has no bearing on the events on the night.  What occurred is what the  case is about, there appears to be no phone  recordings where CZ says yep I blow the lad away because I don't want  blacks in the area. Jim

----------


## S Landreth

Zimmerman told police Trayvon Martin's last words were: You got me. - MiamiHerald.com

tapes have been released and are in link

George Zimmerman told police the day after he shot the teen.

Zimmerman was charged with second-degree murder in the unarmed teens killing. His attorney, Mark OMara, on Thursday posted a series of audios, videos and a written statement Zimmerman gave to police after the Feb. 26 killing.

In them, the neighborhood watch volunteer described to police the events on the rainy night when he said a suspect emerged from the darkness and attacked him in an unprovoked manner. Zimmerman explained both in writing and during interviews that he started the neighborhood watch program because his wife was afraid because of rising crime, and described a frightful night when a stranger wailed on his head and made him feel like he was being hit with bricks.

Among the first things he said to police was that a complaint that every time he calls in a suspicious person, These guys always get away, he said.

On the evening of Feb. 27, the day after the shooting, the bandaged Zimmerman made detailed statements to police on video by re-enacting the incident at the Sanford gated community. He later sat for a longer interview with another police official who used voice-analyzing software to help determine the veracity of Zimmermans statements.

The videos are the first time the public can see and hear Zimmerman describing the events leading up to his confrontation with Trayvon and what led him to shoot the Miami Gardens teen.

Just before the longer interview with police, Zimmermans demeanor seemed cool and a little dazed. There are two mid-sized bandages on his head. He tried to make small talk at one point, asking a female officer:

Have you ever had to shoot anybody?

No, she said.

Good for you, he answered. They then made small talk about their families and he noted, my wifes a mess.

Asked if he had any children, he said no. Thank goodness. He asked her about the rigors of the job and how well she sleeps.

I sleep fine, she said. Now if I were you, I wouldnt.

Later, when he gave his statement, Zimmerman described how he was planning to go on his weekly grocery-store run at Target when I saw this guy walking slowly in front of a house, looking towards the house. And I knew he didnt live there. So it made me a little suspicious and he kept staring around him, at me and behind.

Zimmerman said: It arose my suspicion. He said Trayvon didnt look like he was in a rush to get out of the rain. And he didnt look like he was jogging.

Zimmerman called police. He said he struggled to find an address to help describe where Trayvon was.

At this point the guy walked around my car. He had his hand in his waistband. I didnt hear anything. I had my windows up and it was raining. And I was on the phone with the nonemergency dispatcher, Zimmerman said. And then he disappeared back through a cut through between the houses.

Zimmerman said he followed Trayvons path, partly to make it to his home street so he could tell police where the teen was.

Are you following him? Zimmerman recalled the dispatcher asking him

And I said yes, Zimmerman said.

We dont need you to do that, Zimmerman said the dispatcher told him.

And I said OK, Zimmerman responded. Hes not here anymore. Hes gone.

Zimmerman said he started to walk back to his car in a darkened area between townhouses.

I was about halfway through, he appeared out of nowhere, Zimmerman said of Trayvon.

You got a problem? Zimmerman said Trayvon asked him.

I said no, I dont have a problem, Zimmerman said he responded. He said he fumbled for his phone and thought it was in his pants. But it was in his jacket pocket.

You got a problem now, Zimmerman said Trayvon told him.

He just punched me in the nose. And I fell backwards and to the side, and somehow I wound up on my back. He ended up on top of me. And he just kept punching my face. And my head. And I was screaming for help, Zimmerman said.

Shut the f--- up, Trayvon said as he kept punching, Zimmerman recounted.

He slammed my head into the concrete, Zimmerman said. Each time it felt like my head was going to explode. And then he covered my nose with one hand and my mouth with the other one. And he told me shut the f--- up. And I couldnt breathe. I was suffocating. And all I could think about was I didnt want him to keep slamming my head against the concrete.

Zimmerman said he was losing the fight. I didnt hit him at all, he said. I was trying to defend myself. But every time he punched me in the nose, I felt like my head was going to explode.

Zimmerman said he shifted and wiggled to get his head off the concrete and onto the grass.

But when I shifted, my jacket came up and my shirt came up and it exposed my firearm, Zimmerman said.

Trayvon paused for a moment, he said, realizing Zimmerman had a firearm.

Youre going to die tonight, motherf<hr>, Trayvon said, according to Zimmerman

Trayvon removed one of his hands from Zimmermans mouth and reached for the gun, Zimmerman said. But Zimmerman just pinched his arm and I grabbed my gun and I aimed it at him, and I fired one shot.

Trayvon kind of sat back at this point, Zimmerman said.

You got me. You got it, Trayvon said.

Zimmerman indicated that he didnt realize Trayvon was shot at this point, though it was point-blank range.

I didnt think I hit him, Zimmerman told police when he re-enacted the shooting. I thought he was just saying: I know you have a gun now. I heard it. I give up.

Zimmerman said he pushed Trayvon off him and straddled the teen. He said he thought Trayvon was still a threat and was armed with something.

Just dont move, Zimmerman recalled saying. And he was saying something like Ahhhh. Ahhhh. And cursing.

A neighbor came out and offered to call police. Zimmerman said he already had phoned them. He said he got off Trayvon because he stopped struggling.

Zimmerman said he then holstered my weapon and then I saw another flashlight and I said Are you the police? I had blood all over my face and my eyes. It was dark where I was and the flashlight was really bright.

The officer told him to put or keep his hands in the air and handcuffed him. When the investigator who later interviewed Zimmerman commented how quick everything happened, Zimmerman had a different description.

It felt like an eternity, he said. It felt like it took forever.

In a written statement and an audio-taped interview with Det. Doris Singleton, Zimmerman offered a similar account. In writing, Zimmerman said Trayvon called him, Homey.

Trayvons familys attorney, Benjamin Crump, said Thursday he was struck by what he said are inconsistencies in Zimmermans written statements and the account everyone heard on the recording of Zimmermans call to police.

Its important we know the written statement is before he has spoken to any lawyers or any judges, Crump said. If you take the written statement into consideration and vet it against the audio tapes and interviews, its clear to us and should be clear to everyone why Angela Corey charged him with second-degree murder.

Crump said the written statement fails to mention that he got out of the car to follow Trayvon.

Zimmerman wrote he first saw Trayvon when the teen circled the neighborhood watch volunteers vehicle. Then, the suspect emerged from the darkness, Zimmerman wrote.

Zimmerman frequently uses police jargon, such as calling Trayvon a suspect, and saying things like, I lost visual of him. He acknowledged that he had called police at least six other times to report suspicious people.

Theres been times where I have seen a suspicious person in the neighborhood. We call the non- emergency line and these guys always get away, he told Singleton.

She asked what made Trayvon suspicious, and if he had ever seen Trayvon before.

I had never seen him in the neighborhood. I know all the residents. It was raining out, and he was leisurely walking, taking his time looking at all the houses, he said. When I drove by, he stopped, looked at me. It was raining and he was walking casually, not like he was trying to get out of the rain.

OMara had initially sought to keep the information sealed from the public, but a judge ruled against it. Prosecutors also wanted the information sealed, because confessions are not considered public record. But because Zimmerman was not confessing to a crime, the judge ruled the information had to be released.

----------


## ENT

George Zimmerman re-enacts the night he shot Trayvon Martin.

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## ENT

Next bit.

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## jamescollister

GZ will walk, unless the prosecution has some really damning hard evidence to contradict the statements. A difference between a written and taped statement is to be expected unless the statements were concocted prior to them beingmade. Statements taken at scene or as soon after the event are given more credence then ones take at later times. Don't think GZ is that smart or cool to have come up with the story on the run.
      If there is no other damning evidence against him, he doesn't even need the stand your ground defense. It is plain self defense. Take out all the other suppositions as to state of mind, what Martin was thinking or what GZ was thinking or the rain was falling in the wrong direction and what do you have.
A guy is walking through a dark lane and another guy jumps out and attacks him. Motive of assailant unknown, victim has a legal carry permit and fearing for his life, that the assailant would kill him with his own weapon, draws and fires one shot. 
      If the State does not have more then has been released so far, GZ's lawyer will be licking his lips at the thought of damages for wrongful prosecution. Bet even the ex police chief will be filing against the city.
      More to come yet, but not looking good for the prosecution. 
Internet to slow to watch the vid so have only read the report. Jim

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## ENT

Interview

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## ENT

His story doesn't add up does it?

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## ENT

He had to look for a street sign and this was his neighbourhood watch "patch"?

How many streets were there in that gated community? Three? Four? Five?

And he didn't know which one he was on?

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## jamescollister

> He had to look for a street sign and this was his neighbourhood watch "patch"?
> 
> How many streets were there in that gated community? Three? Four? Five?
> 
> And he didn't know which one he was on?


Not relevant, proves only that he was not good on street names and locations. If that was a crime I would be serving life.
Know you have it in for the guy and nothing I or others can say will change your mind.
Did this type of work and  so far yet, I have read nothing or saw evidence that can contradict his story. Where are the eye witness to the shooting, not persons who came after. The  forensic evidence neither proves  nor disproves any of his story. Remember GZ does not have to prove his innocents, the State has to prove his guilt. Can they prove that Martin was in the dark lane way for a reason, other then to lay in wait for GZ. 
This is shaping up to be a political show trial, take out the race side and would there have been charges brought if both persons where of the same race. Or if GZ had been an off duty cop, still the same chaine of events, different result. Jim

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## ENT

According to the interviews he can't remember quite a lot of relevant bits, he says.

Maybe he's got a touch of the Ronnie Reagans, ("I can't recall..")

The prosecution are quite confident of their case, O'Mara's not.
GZ's credibility is a big factor in this case.

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## jamescollister

> According to the interviews he can't remember quite a lot of relevant bits, he says.
> 
> Maybe he's got a touch of the Ronnie Reagans, ("I can't recall..")
> 
> The prosecution are quite confident of their case, O'Mara's not.
> GZ's credibility is a big factor in this case.


Can't blame or condemn him for not remembering. During life threatening incidents a person goes into the flight or fight response. Blood moves from the extremities to the core motor functions, endorphins and  adrenaline are pumped in the the body. Peripheral vision shuts down and the body runs on learned or reflex motor response. It's a survival response in men and animals and the brain is fully concentrating on keeping the body alive. it is not worried about remembering details. Jim

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## ENT

He wasn't in that state in the police station the next day.


"But as for the simple mechanics of building collapse, it really _IS_ Popular Mechanics stuff" latindancer re. WTC 911.

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## jamescollister

> He wasn't in that state in the police station the next day.
> 
> 
> "But as for the simple mechanics of building collapse, it really _IS_ Popular Mechanics stuff" latindancer re. WTC 911.


If you don't form the memories at the time you are not likely to have the memory. That's why in police interviews they try and walk you through the event, very slowly in order to get as much detail as possible. Then with what info they have they try to put the events in a time line to see what happened. You can get 10 witness to and incident and all will have seen different things. Unless the witness is a trained observer their evidence is always selective. Just the way people are made. Jim

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## ENT

If GZ keeps behaving like a scrambled egg, it's gonna be easy to convict him on the 2nd degree murder charge as "being of depraved mind"

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## jamescollister

> If GZ keeps behaving like a scrambled egg, it's gonna be easy to convict him on the 2nd degree murder charge as "being of depraved mind"


Again he does not have to get on the stand, all he has to do is sit there at the defense table and never say a word or prove anything. It's the prosecutor [State ] that has the burden of proof and as of yet I have seen no evidence from the State that disproves that GZ was not attacked. There may be witness who's statement are not public yet, but the defense is entitled to full disclosure of the evidence. Jim

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## ENT

They're not gonna show their hand till the fat lady sings, mate.

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## jamescollister

> They're not gonna show their hand till the fat lady sings, mate.


ENT think you are missing the point, anything that the prosecutor fails to disclose to the defense in a timely manner before the trial can't not be used in the trial. All witness statements, police reports, everything must be given to the accused. Would have to believe the police investigation is long over, very little if any thing new is likely to be found. All the facts will have been handed to GZs lawyers, if there is nothing there, that's it. No trial at all by the look of the available evidence. Will just have to wait and see. Jim

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## ENT

I understand that disclosure of all evidence must occur, but how it's used by both sides is up to the skill of the lawyers, co-operation of witnesses and how the accused responds to that evidence at trial. 
The public doesn't know all the evidence yet, but judging by O'Mara's behaviour recently, I don't think he's feeling very comfortable.

If GZ doesn't take the stand, and a good lawyer wouldn't want his client to do that, then I agree, there's a chance GZ will walk, not because he's innocent though, IMO.

SA Corey made the move to charge him, and in an early post I thought that her decision to do so could influence her future status greatly, one way or another.
The state, I think, is holding the trumps at this time, and fresh evidence _may_ come to light.

On balance, so far, my opinion is that GZ has lied about how events unfolded and his lack of remorse indicated by his behaviour from the start will cause questions to arise  in the public mind, thus the jury's also.
Judge Lester will hold a hard line on all this, I don't think he's biased, but GZ, Shellie and O'Mara's seeming tacit collusion to lie over finances will certainly not help GZ.

GZ's a maverick, and could easily react instead of behaving as directed by O'Mara, but then, It's up to the client to instruct counsel, not vice versa.
It's gonna be interesting.

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## guyinthailand

> If GZ keeps behaving like a scrambled egg, it's gonna be easy to convict him on the 2nd degree murder charge as "being of depraved mind"


The U.S. justice system doesn't work on the 'scrambled egg' theory, bENT.  It works on evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.

It is probably your mind that is 'depraved' because you think Zimmerman is guilty until proven innocent.

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## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> If GZ keeps behaving like a scrambled egg, it's gonna be easy to convict him on the 2nd degree murder charge as "being of depraved mind"
> 
> 
> The U.S. justice system doesn't work on the 'scrambled egg' theory, bENT.  It works on evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.
> 
> It is probably your mind that is 'depraved' because you think Zimmerman is guilty until proven innocent.


You're wrong again, git.

Being of a "depraved mind" is being a scrambled egg, spooked out on drugs for his ADHD, paranoidly stalking a kid in the dark while armed, as he was at the time he shot Trayvon Martin.

His first defence team said that they were worried about his mental health, right at the beginning of the circus.

I'm not the only one who thinks GZ's guilty, the SA thinks so too, as do the FBI, which is why they're chasing him.

GZ believed Martin was guilty, without any proof whatsoever, just his depraved scrambled mind working OT, so he executed the kid 'cause he didn't want him to "get away all the time".

Weird.

I reckon GZ'd be better off pleading insanity, going by what his behaviour.

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## jamescollister

ENT GZ believed Martin was guilty, without any proof whatsoever, just his  depraved scrambled mind working OT, so he executed the kid 'cause he  didn't want him to "get away all the time".
       Where is the evidence, I have read nothing in the way of facts that supports this theory. So far GZs statements seem to follow the time line of events and unless there is an unknown eye witness, or some other evidence to the contrary [real evidence ] The state has no case. Jim

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## ENT

The evidence is in the police records of his calls, testimony and behaviour afterwards, both in court, in jail and on bail.

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## jamescollister

> The evidence is in the police records of his calls, testimony and behaviour afterwards, both in court, in jail and on bail.


 Nowhere in the police calls does GZ say I am, or have shot Martin so he can't get away, nor does he say anywhere in the interview tapes or statements that he executed Martin to stop him leaving the scene, So far the only I witness statement is GZs and he states Martin attacked in in a dark lane way. There is nothing to contradict this, that I have seen. 
He is going to walk and I have doubts it will even get to trial. Jim

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## S Landreth

Something to ponder,……..

Could Trayvon Martin’s Cellphone be the Key to Solving the Zimmerman Case? « Frederick Leatherman Law Blog

I have suspected all along that Trayvon Martin’s cell phone would turn out to be the smoking gun in the Zimmerman case and I offer the following evidence for consideration and comment.

At the 4:47 mark during Detective Serino’s interview of George Zimmerman, after Zimmerman admits that he shot Trayvon Martin with a hollow point bullet, Zimmerman suddenly volunteers,

When he was hitting me, I don’t know what he was hitting me with. I thought he had something in his hands, so I grabbed his hands when I was on top of him and I spread his hands away from his body because he was still talking and I was on top of him. And that’s when somebody came and they had a flashlight too and I thought it was a police officer, so I got off him.

In addition to claiming that Trayvon had banged his head against pavement, Zimmerman also told the EMT at the crime scene, when the EMT was cleaning his wounds with peroxide, that he had been struck with an unknown blunt instrument.

The report concludes:

Cause of injury: Struck by blunt/thrown object (9640) Mechanism of Injury: Blunt.

We know that Trayvon Martin was not armed and the police recovered only one thing near Trayvon’s body that could have served as a blunt instrument: His cell phone, which was lying in the grass next to his body.

The cell phone is Exhibit DMS 7.

The police submitted Exhibit DMS 7 to the Crime Lab with a request for a latent print examination. See Lab Report dated March 12, 2012 (see page 119)

The results:

No latent print examinations were performed per information received from Special Agent Supervisor David Lee.

Exhibit DMS-7 was returned to the agency.

The use of fingerprint powder to dust an object for possible prints (the fine powder adheres to the oil ridges left by the print making it possible to see the print and “lift” it from the object using special tape) can interfere with a DNA analysis and make it impossible to obtain a result. For this reason, one must always do a DNA analysis first.

According to Trayvon’s girlfriend, just before the connection terminated, she heard Trayvon ask,

Why are you following me?

Then she heard a male voice respond,

What are you doing here?

Then she heard what sounded like Trayvon’s headset being yanked out of the phone.

She tried calling him back, but he never answered.

I suspect the phone was resubmitted to the DNA lab for analysis, and if it was not submitted, it should be because it may have George Zimmerman’s DNA on it.

I don’t know about y’all, but I do not believe Trayvon would have confronted George Zimmerman while he was talking to his girlfriend and suddenly started wailing on Zimmerman with his cell phone.

I can easily imagine, however, Trayvon hitting Zimmerman in self-defense with the cell phone because he had it in his hand and it was the only thing he had to use as a weapon when Zimmerman attacked him.

Do y’all think that the prosecutors know they have the trump card and they have not released the lab report to prove it because they want to hold it back as long as possible?

I want to see that report.

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## jamescollister

> Something to ponder,..
> 
> Could Trayvon Martins Cellphone be the Key to Solving the Zimmerman Case? « Frederick Leatherman Law Blog
> 
> I have suspected all along that Trayvon Martins cell phone would turn out to be the smoking gun in the Zimmerman case and I offer the following evidence for consideration and comment.
> 
> At the 4:47 mark during Detective Serinos interview of George Zimmerman, after Zimmerman admits that he shot Trayvon Martin with a hollow point bullet, Zimmerman suddenly volunteers,
> 
> When he was hitting me, I dont know what he was hitting me with. I thought he had something in his hands, so I grabbed his hands when I was on top of him and I spread his hands away from his body because he was still talking and I was on top of him. And thats when somebody came and they had a flashlight too and I thought it was a police officer, so I got off him.
> ...


 All guess work, any DNA evidence should have been handed over to the defense by now, withholding it may make it unusable as evidence. If GZ DNA is on the phone, only proves he was hit with the phone, not that it was used as a defensive weapon or an aggressive weapon. GZ could have attacked Martin or Martin could have attacked GZ. Either way as to who attacked who the premeditation for the murder is gone. Street fight turns to a killing, not premeditated murder. Martin according to GF said Martin said are you following me, not don't shoot or are you a cop, because GZ had his weapon drawn. Headline charge to make some people look good in the press, in the end may make those people look very stupid. More to come. Jim

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## ENT

Trayvon Martin's phone did not automatically switch off when the earpiece fell from his ear, it continued to record and transmit, and whatever sound it picked up was transmitted via ECHELON to NSA which the FBI has access to.

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## jamescollister

> Trayvon Martin's phone did not automatically switch off when the earpiece fell from his ear, it continued to record and transmit, and whatever sound it picked up was transmitted via ECHELON to NSA which the FBI has access to.


Oh come on now, no one is going to open that pandora's box. Think what you are saying, to allow that evidence in would be the biggest can of worms ever. Every law enforcement agency would want recordings of anyone suspected of a crime, No warrent needed. Big brother listening to everything, every tap of a key board on the net open to some local, state or Fed agency, from cops to tax. Never going to happen ,no matter if it proves GZ guilty or innocent. Jim

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## ENT

Wake up mate, every tap I'm making now is being transmitted via my ISP and being picked up by ECHELON in real time.
Every law enforcement agency can get data from ECHELON by agreement and under warrant from in the US's case, NSA.
This has been going on since the 1970's. Just Google to read.

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## Cujo

> Trayvon Martin's phone did not automatically switch off when the earpiece fell from his ear, it continued to record and transmit, and whatever sound it picked up was transmitted via ECHELON to NSA which the FBI has access to.


Are you REALLY under the impression that EVERY call made in the US is monitored and recorded by the NSA?
Let's not start that, ok, I have a busy week ahead.

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## jamescollister

> Wake up mate, every tap I'm making now is being transmitted via my ISP and being picked up by ECHELON in real time.
> Every law enforcement agency can get data from ECHELON by agreement and under warrant from in the US's case, NSA.
> This has been going on since the 1970's. Just Google to read.


 Show one case  where Intel  from a National security agency has been used in a criminal offense.  Mafia trials, international drug smuggling etc. Not going to happen, what next the local dog catcher using NASA spy satellites to prove you dog took a crap.
I know that big brother is watching, but he does not care about the comings and goings of the peons, whether it be killing each other or selling drugs or ripping billions from the banks or stock exchanges.  You need a court order to tap phones to use them as evidence, Jim

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## Cujo

> Originally Posted by ENT 
> Wake up mate, every tap I'm making now is being transmitted via my ISP and being picked up by ECHELON in real time.


 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl: 
Somehow I think ENT overestimates his value to the intelligence community.
 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

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## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> Trayvon Martin's phone did not automatically switch off when the earpiece fell from his ear, it continued to record and transmit, and whatever sound it picked up was transmitted via ECHELON to NSA which the FBI has access to.
> 
> 
> Are you REALLY under the impression that EVERY call made in the US is monitored and recorded by the NSA?
> Let's not start that, ok, I have a busy week ahead.


Well to be fair every call is in fact imonitored in a way. Not by millions of people with head phones listening, but by computers that use key word recognition. Many phones that are of suspect use or users, will be recorded and some where down the line a human may listen to them. You would need to be pretty high up the not liked list before they really took any notice of your phone or computer usage. Jim

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## larvidchr

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> Wake up mate, every tap I'm making now is being transmitted via my ISP and being picked up by ECHELON in real time.
> Every law enforcement agency can get data from ECHELON by agreement and under warrant from in the US's case, NSA.
> This has been going on since the 1970's. Just Google to read.
> 
> 
>  Show one case  where Intel  from a National security agency has been used in a criminal offense.  Mafia trials, international drug smuggling etc. Not going to happen, what next the local dog catcher using NASA spy satellites to prove you dog took a crap.
> I know that big brother is watching, but he does not care about the comings and goings of the peons, whether it be killing each other or selling drugs or ripping billions from the banks or stock exchanges.  You need a court order to tap phones to use them as evidence, Jim


This is a bit of topic but-

They do actually listen in on all they can get at, and that means most of it,... although I doubt they listen to ENT  :rofl:  - they listen to sattelite, cables, optic cables, phone conversations, text messages, mails, facebook etc. etc. all kinds of communication in fact, they have back-doors/key codes for most of the encryption out there, some is known and some is not but still secretly supplied by the developers or Governments.

Due to volume though, it is controlled by a worldwide network of listening stations and supercomputers and actual recording for analyses is mostly automated and triggered by keywords, voice recognition and a whole host of other classified stuff.

It is a known fact that NSA and 'Echelon" have had a very hard time keeping up with the drastic increase in electronic communication in the INTERNET and computer age, they are behind and constantly trying to catch up with better supercomputers and bigger facilities + much better selection processes from the enormous volume of world wide electronic/sat cyberspace communication.

Communication tapping and the legality is a sensitive issue since com/phone-calls from overseas and foreign com/phone-calls don't require a US court order, but since Canada, Australia, Britain, NZ etc. is part of the original "Echelon" (real name UKUSA or AUSCANNZUKUS) it does not require to much imagination to figure out how US phone-calls/communication can be/are monitored quite legally :mid:  and by request any necessary intelligence shared. 

Some of the known electronic intelligence gathering bases is here -Australian Defence Satellite Communications Station (Geraldton, Western Australia)Menwith Hill (Yorkshire, UK) Map (reportedly the largest Echelon facility)[17]Misawa Air Base (Japan) MapGCHQ Bude, formerly known as GCHQ CSO Morwenstow, (Cornwall, UK) MapPine Gap (Northern Territory, Australia - close to Alice Springs) MapSugar Grove (West Virginia, US) MapYakima Training Center (Washington, US) MapGCSB Waihopai (New Zealand)GCSB Tangimoana (New Zealand)CFS Leitrim (Ontario, Canada)* Other potentially related stations*

 The following stations are listed in the EP report (p. 57 ff) as ones whose roles "cannot be clearly established":Ayios Nikolaos (Cyprus - UK)Bad Aibling Station (Bad Aibling, Germany - US)- relocated to Griesheim in 2004,[18] deactivated in 2008.[19]Buckley Air Force Base (Aurora, Colorado, US)Fort Gordon (Georgia, US)Gander (Newfoundland & Labrador, Canada)Guam (Pacific Ocean, US)Kunia (Hawaii, US)Lackland Air Force Base, Medina Annex (San Antonio, Texas, US)Several Terrorist/criminal/war on drugs cases, drone bombings and intelligence operations have been directly from or have benefited large or small from information collected by NSA and their partners around the world.

Nothing new in this and not especially controversial, it would be far more controversial and dangerous if our intelligence services where not doing their job.

Back to thread subject, Zimmerman will walk  :Smile:

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## ENT

Cheers for that larvidchr.

Agreed, it's better to have the watchers than not, but who watches the watchmen? (Plato)

I'll punt a pint on him not walking.   :Smile: 

Catch ya in CM or Bkk when I get back.

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## guyinthailand

> The evidence is in the police records of his calls, testimony and behaviour afterwards, both in court, in jail and on bail.


Bunch of horse hockey, there bENT.  That stuff don't matter none.  Nope. 

The 'evidence' is in bENTs hyper-active, 'string-em-up-and-hang-em' brain.

Get bENT on the stand. He'll enlighten 'em.

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## guyinthailand

> *Wake up mate, every tap I'm making now is being transmitted via my ISP and being picked up by ECHELON in real time.*


He could be right.  I mean, bENT is strange enough for the NSA to want to try and figure him out.  *Maybe use him as a weapon of mass confusion.*

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## ENT

Poor old git, ya can't accept the facts can ya?

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## ENT

*Statements reveal George Zimmerman’s mind-set before Trayvon Martin shootin*g

Sunday, June 24, 2012 - Added 21 hours ago
ORLANDO, Fla. - In the months since the death of Trayvon Martin, the public has seen a steady stream of evidence and analysis. But most of that revealed little about the mind-set of his shooter, George Zimmerman.

For the first time last week, we heard Zimmerman, in his own words, explain to police what he said was going through his mind after he spotted the teen in his Sanford, Fla., neighborhood Feb. 26.

One thing is clear: To Zimmerman, it was not an isolated incident. It was the culmination of mounting concern and frustration about crime in the subdivision where he was Neighborhood Watch captain.

*The teen was in the grass, not on the sidewalk,* Zimmerman told officers.
"He was just leisurely looking at the house," Zimmerman said. "That’s what threw me off. It’s raining. I didn’t understand why somebody would be just stopping in the rain."

*Zimmerman drove past, he said, then parked a few feet away* while he talked to a dispatcher on a police nonemergency line.

"I said, you know, it’s better to just call," he said.

*Trayvon walked past Zimmerman’s pickup, looked at him then disappeared, Zimmerman said.*

*During the re-enactment, Zimmerman told officers the dispatcher asked whether he could re-establish eye contact with the teenager. A review of his call shows that’s not true.*

*Zimmerman drove a short distance down the street and again spotted Trayvon, he said.*
*
Trayvon "came down and circled my car. ... He had his hand in his waistband," Zimmerman said during the re-enactment. Then Trayvon disappeared again, Zimmerman said.*

One of the most debated questions about that night is:* Why did Zimmerman get out of his pickup?*

*Zimmerman blames a question from the dispatcher and a bad memory. The dispatcher asked where Trayvon was and what direction he was headed, "and I could not remember the name of that street," Zimmerman said, "... then I thought to get out to look at a street sign, so I got out and started walking."*

Among the recordings released Thursday was an interview conducted three days after the shooting in which detectives asked Zimmerman what he was thinking and doing moment by moment during the call.

In it, Zimmerman said Trayvon looked like he’s "on drugs or something."
"On drugs. Why?" asked Sanford police investigator Chris Serino, after playing that portion of the call.
"Oh, becuse he just kept looking around, looking behind and looking, just kept shifting where he was looking," he told Serino.

*When the dispatcher asked whether he was following Trayvon, Zimmerman answered that he was. But when questioned later by detectives, he said he was trying to get a better address for police.*

*"I was just going in the same direction he was*," Zimmerman said.

Serino grilled Zimmerman on the discrepancy.
*"It sounds like you’re looking for him," Serino said. "You wanted to catch him. You wanted to catch the bad guy."*

Detectives also played a 911 call, in which cries for help are audible. The issue of who was crying - Zimmerman or Trayvon - has been hotly debated.

*"That doesn’t even sound like me,"* Zimmerman said. It’s unclear whether he was indicating that the voice might not be his, or just that his tone was so frightened he didn’t recognize it.

"I’m just going to keep quiet, and you tell me the story," investigator Doris Singleton told Zimmerman, in an interview hours after the shooting.* "You tell me what happened tonight."*
*Zimmerman’s reply: "Just tonight?"*

Zimmerman’s account of the death of Trayvon Martin begins long before he ever encountered the teen.
In fact, he spent the first several minutes of the interview talking about a string of earlier events that he says led to the fatal encounter.

"The neighborhood has had a lot of crimes," Zimmerman said. "My wife saw our neighbors get broken into, and she was scared ... so I decided to start a Neighborhood Watch program in my neighborhood."

Zimmerman told Singleton that he had called police to report suspicious people multiple times, but "these guys always get away."
"I had called before, and the police had come out," he said later in the interview, "but these guys know the neighborhood very well, and they would cut in between buildings and lose ..."

Singleton interrupted: "You’re saying these guys, who are these guys?"
"The people committing the burglaries," Zimmerman replied.

Zimmerman told Singleton that he knew every Retreat at Twin Lakes resident and had never seen Trayvon before Feb. 26.

Statements reveal George Zimmerman&rsquo;s mind-set before Trayvon Martin shooting - BostonHerald.com


GZ first says he knows all the residents in his patch, then says he didn't know where he was?

As predicted, George Zimmerman is slowly hanging himself.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> You need a court order to tap phones to use them as evidence


Doesn't stop the illegal taps used to point people in the right direction though, does it?

The security services are a law unto themselves these days.

----------


## jamescollister

> You need a court order to tap phones to use them as evidence
> 			
> 		
> 
> Doesn't stop the illegal taps used to point people in the right direction though, does it?
> 
> The security services are a law unto themselves these days.


 Nothing wrong with gathering intel on the bad guys, just don't mention it when you are in the box. If you bust a drug deal that you leaned about by dubious methods. You just say you happened to be driving by and saw suspisious behaviour.  Jim

----------


## ENT

> You need a court order to tap phones to use them as evidence
> 			
> 		
> 
> Doesn't stop the illegal taps used to point people in the right direction though, does it?
> 
> The security services are a law unto themselves these days.


They have been for years, mate, at least since the early eighties.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				You need a court order to tap phones to use them as evidence
> ...


Have you ever heard the expression ,"I had a hunch." ?   :Smile:

----------


## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				You need a court order to tap phones to use them as evidence
> ...


Think I would go back to the 40s maybe earlier. Knowledge is power, but still can't use it in court. Jim

----------


## ENT

Yes, it was about then that sleuths stopped using hose pipes slipped through open windows and home made periscopes and mirrors to eavesdrop.
The war made a big difference, all those bits of military tech got carried through by ex-military into civilian occupations. Sleuthing's an art, IMO, a real talent, takes a lot of patience.

Following this GZ case has been really interesting as all the tiny bits of info are noticed and picked up, put together and layed out. A bit like picture puzzles.

The minute I heard that GZ and Martin were being audio recorded  I knew something was going to be defined.

Loose lips sink ships. Legally obtained or not, conversations bust more people than so called "hard" evidence.

----------


## guyinthailand

> Poor old git, ya can't accept the facts can ya?


  I can accept that you've made the top-ten list of gargantuan bullshit, misquotes, and outright lies right here on this thread.  I've cataloged most of them for all to see.  All in the record.

And I can accept the fact that in the record are your death threats to me, you unbalanced, unhinged crazy f*#king lunatic.

----------


## Panty Hamster

Why would anyone get bent out of shape over some lowlife thug house criminal getting shot for putting a beatdown on a community patrolman? 

I think it's well deserved.

Q: What does Trayvon Martin and an old vinyl record have in common? 
A: They're both black and they both have a hole in them.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> Poor old git, ya can't accept the facts can ya?
> 
> 
>   I can accept that you've made the top-ten list of gargantuan bullshit, misquotes, and outright lies right here on this thread.  I've cataloged most of them for all to see.  All in the record.
> 
> And I can accept the fact that in the record are your death threats to me, you unbalanced, unhinged crazy f*#king lunatic.


You're deluded and fishing again.  :Smile: 
Quote the post where I made death threats to ya, ya paranoid geriatric little git.

The only record you've got is the old cracked one in yer head, with yer needle stuck in in the groove.     :rofl:

----------


## ENT

^^You are one hell of a sick bastard.

----------


## guyinthailand

> And I can accept the fact that in the record are your death threats to me, you unbalanced, unhinged crazy f*#king lunatic.





> You're deluded and fishing again. 
> Quote the post where I made death threats to ya, ya paranoid geriatric little git.


 


> You're a sad sack ya git, too bad you can't come around for a fish dinner, as that would put an end to your pathetic whining and howling
> Howl away as much as you likeMy family doesn't like stalkers like you, so we do in fact eliminate them from our presence.Nothing fishy about it, there's more than one way to skin a catWe and the fish look forward to welcoming you and the wombat, git shit. I repeat, if you are noted to be in my or my family's vicinity, your presence there will be eliminated.That is not a threat, it is a warning and a promise.


  Youre such a pussy, bENT!

  You did threaten me with death.  But youre such a pussy now you try and hide it with your interminable bullshit.  But you cant hide, pussy!  There it is above..See it now, you f*#king chickenshit pussy!

and you just proved you are a first-rate moron because 1) you invite me to your house and then 2) say I'll be a stalker if I show up and eliminate me for showing up after having invited me.

What kind of a moron says shit like this? a bENT moron, that's who!

way to go, bENT, you just proved you're a low-life liar, a moron

and a loser.

You do know, don't you, that it is impotent individuals who issue threats while ('whilst') they hide behind a screen name.

bENT: impotent loser liar.

----------


## S Landreth

Sanford detective: Trayvon Martin never used deadly force - MiamiHerald.com

Prosecutors released another batch of evidence in the George Zimmerman murder trial Tuesday, including a statement from the lead detective that shows the investigator doubted the shooters story, even though he passed two lie detector tests.

The State Attorneys Office released several videos and audio tapes, most of which had already been made public last week by Zimmermans attorney, Mark OMara. One video released Tuesday shows new footage of Zimmerman discussing his injuries with detectives.

Prosecutors released a statement by Sanford Police Det. Chris Serino, in which he detailed the events the night of the shooting of Trayvon Martin and explained why he believed a manslaughter charge was appropriate. The police department announced Tuesday that Serino has been assigned to night patrol, but that the transfer was not a demotion.

A shorter statement had been released last month, with large sections blacked out.

Trayvon died Feb. 26 after a fight with Zimmerman. Zimmerman claims the unarmed teenager attacked him and he had no choice but to shoot, because Trayvon had reached for Zimmermans weapon.

But the records released Tuesday show Serino said Zimmermans injuries were only marginally consistent with a life threatening violent episode described by him, during which neither a deadly weapon nor deadly force was deployed by Trayvon Martin.

Serino said the relative sizes of the two fighters, coupled with the fact that neither had specialized training in hand-to-hand combat, meant Zimmerman was not at any exceptional disadvantage.

Zimmerman, by his statements made to the call taker and recorded for review and his statements made to investigators following the shooting death of Martin, make it clear that he had already reached a faulty conclusion as to Martins purpose for being in the neighborhood.

His actions are inconsistent with those of a person who has stated he was in fear of another subject, Serino wrote. Investigative findings show that George Michael Zimmerman had at least two opportunities to speak with Trayvon Benjamin Martin in order to defuse the circumstances surrounding the encounter. On at least two occasions, George Michael Zimmerman failed to identify himself as a concerned resident or a neighborhood watch member to Trayvon Benjamin Martin.

At one point in the new video shot the day after the killing, Sanford Det. Doris Singleton notes that the swelling of injuries to Zimmermans head had already died down after just a day.

Zimmerman said his nose was broken and he probably needed stitches for his head injuries, but that the wounds had already begun to heal so he did not get sutures. His hands showed no scrapes, although his head had bruising.

He was just focused on my head, Zimmerman said of Trayvon. Zimmerman said his wife, Shellie, attended to his injuries.

My wife is an RN student, so she went to work, Zimmerman said. Good to keep her busy, I guess.

----------


## guyinthailand

Here's a couple of reactions by random posters on some blogs.

_"Serino is just another scumbag who instead  of doing his job, is lookling at this as an oppurtunity to advance his  career.  Ive encountered many of his type here in south Florida.  He is  disgusting.  In his interogation on the 29th, he says to Zimmerman I  answer to this kids parents.  Really Serino?  You answer to the kids  parents?  I would think as an investigator in the Sanford PD you would  answer to the people of Seminole county.  The only answer the kids  parents deserved at the time was this:_
_Im sorry Mr. and Mrs Martin, but all the evidence available shows  that your child was killed because he was commiting a felony assault and  battery against an innocent citizen of Seminole county._
_These people really piss me off."_


**
**

_"O/T but something needs to be said:
Be prepared for a fresh onslaught of negative Zimmerman turds to wash  down the the left-wing media colon chute in the event of negative  renderings by the Supreme Court.on Obama care   you will see a tsunami  of fresh revelations and explosive allegations regarding this  contrived fable of racism, if Obamacare fails  that is about all Obama  has going for him.
Why? you ask? Because George Zimmerman is nothing but a pawn in a high  stakes-political game stretching all the way from Florida back to  Washington D.C.
and that is a real shame.
You wont see any positive .moves or news for George Zimmerman until  after election day when his usefulness to the Party Goal. is over.  Be  forewarned, be ready._"
_**
**
__"The fact that Serinos police report  contains a section talking about GZ only ever calling 911 on young black  males was unnecessary and very telling.  There was no reason to write  that GZs call records were checked, obviously for the purpose of seeing  if he had called young black males suspicious in the past, and the  writing that all of his calls were about blacks serves only one  purpose,  to make him appear to be a racist.  The 4 calls Serino lists  in his report were calls where others called police and reported black  males as suspicious also.  The first two dates were when the young  mother hid in her upstairs bathroom as she watched 2 young black males  break in her sliding door.  They were seen leaving the scene when police  arrived.  I see no purpose for adding that information in his  investigation report of the GZ/TM incident.  It was also very untrue.   He also asked GZ in the interrogation if TM was white would he still  have considered him suspicious._
_Why ever would Serino add the racial elements right from the start,  especially when he undoubtedly knew that GZ advocated for a black  homeless man. In order for this case to move up to the DOJ, it had to be  determined to be a hate crime.  The DOJ cannot just walk in and take  over a local case for no reason."_

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> You're a sad sack ya git, too bad you can't come around for a fish dinner, as that would put an end to your pathetic whining and howling…
> Howl away as much as you like…*My family doesn't like stalkers like you*, so we do in fact eliminate them from our presence….Nothing fishy about it, there's more than one way to skin a cat…We and the fish look forward to welcoming you and the wombat, git shit. …*I repeat, if you are noted to be in my or my family's vicinity, your presence there will be eliminated…*.That is not a threat, it is a warning and a promise.
> 
> 
>   You did threaten me with death.


Your slanderous statement above has been copied and filed, as is this post, for
your arrogance and presumptuousness is beyond any tolerance.

Your obviously unhealthy state of mind needs attending to.

I have never invited you to my house nor threatened you in any way.

_Never_ in my life have I threatened _anyone_ with death.

Now go away.

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by guyinthailand
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by guyinthailand
> ...


Maybe you should clarify what you mean by 'eliminate'
in this sentence then.



> My family doesn't like stalkers like you, so we do in fact *eliminate them* from our presence


Just for LDs peace of mind.

----------


## robuzo

"Trayvon died Feb. 26 after a fight with Zimmerman. Zimmerman claims the unarmed teenager attacked him and he had no choice but to shoot, because Trayvon had reached for Zimmerman’s weapon."

Great excuse: I brought a gun, therefore I had to kill him when he reached for it. No, I'm not a cop and have no power of arrest, I'm just a dickhead with an inferiority complex. I wouldn't have had the balls to follow some kid in the dark without my trusty shootin' iron, because like so many Americans I think "a gat in the hand means the world by the tail."*

*Chandler, The Big Sleep

----------


## ENT

^^I wouldn't give LD a kind look, let alone peace of mind,

Think of the many forms of elimination.    :Smile:

----------


## guyinthailand

> You're a sad sack ya git, too bad you can't* come around for a fish dinner,* as that would put an end to your pathetic whining and howling…
> Howl away as much as you like…*My family doesn't like stalkers like you*, so *we do in fact eliminate them* from our presence….Nothing fishy about it, there's more than one way to skin a cat…We and the fish look forward to welcoming you and the wombat, git shit. …*I repeat, if you are noted to be in my or my family's vicinity, your presence there will be eliminated…*.That is not a threat,* it is a warning and a promise*.






> Your slanderous statement above has been copied and filed, as is this post, foryour arrogance and presumptuousness is beyond any tolerance.Your obviously unhealthy state of mind needs attending to.
> I have never invited you to my house nor threatened you in any way.
> _Never_ in my life have I threatened _anyone_ with death. Now go away.


bENT, you are a pathetic piece of fish scum.  Liar, Wimp, pussy, who did all the things I said he did, there it is in writing for the world to see, and you, teakdoor's resident moron, is still lying through his teeth and denying it.

Here's some advice for you bENT: don't start fights you can't finish.

----------


## ENT

Interesting reaction, just like a dog on speed.

You show a tendency to stalk and to take any easily available opportunity to have a bite at whatever you disagree with or upsets your definition of the rules as your perception of other's intentions dictate.

Being as paranoidly  over-defensive as your responses suggest, it seems difficult for you to behave in an appropriate manner.

Apparently, you are under the misguided impression that I had invited you to my house.
You are also deluded enough to think and behave as though I was a threat to you. 

Such behaviour on your part encourages me to avoid you, both on this forum and in real life, but if you persist in your behaviour I have no choice but to stand my ground against you.

I've got my eye on you,

----------


## ENT

Crazy George Zimmerman video presentation of interview.







Latindancer : As a mattter of fact, I studied Okinawan Karate before Bruce Lee became famous. Then continued with other styles.But as for the simple mechanics of building collapse, it really _IS_ Popular Mechanics stuff" latindancer re. WTC 911

----------


## ENT

The full voice analysis test and interview.

----------


## guyinthailand

> I have no choice but to stand my ground against you.


bENT, the imbecile who says George Zimmerman wasn't allowed to 'stand his ground' by using self defense now...hahahahahah...claims this as HIS right.




> I've got my eye on you,


How could you have your eye on me, bENT?  You can't find your butt with both hands.

----------


## ENT

A good example of what others perceive of your attitude.




> WTF?
> 
> Are you illiterate? I didn't mention how I'd react, I don't have a dead daughter so I can't tell you. And you don't have one, so how the fuck can you know?
> 
> What I said is that people react differently to the grieving process, not necessarily to your witless, ill-informed version of it.
> 
> Once again you are have an unmoveable version of what should happen despite having absolutely no experience whatsoever.
> 
> Fucking hell, armchair expert is starting to sound like an understatement.

----------


## guyinthailand

> A good example of what others perceive of your attitude.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> ...



Resident moron bENT, can't even post something relevant to this thread.  He's extracting other on-the-rag posters from unrelated threads on TD, and pasting them here.

Whats a matter, bENT, can't stand up for yourself?  Gotta run to mommy?

----------


## ENT

You just prove my point, thanks   :Smile:

----------


## ENT

GZ's personality problems are chronic and acute.
The behaviour described below is that of the classic schoolyard, office and social bully,that of a psychopath, or a gangser or one of criminal mentality. It is intimidating and designed to destroy all credibility of a rival.

*'Lying, manipulating' George Zimmerman 'bullied his colleague with racial comments'* 

George Zimmerman bullied and aimed racist comments at an Arab-American co-worker, mocking him as a terrorist and making fun of his accent.
That is the claim from Zimmerman's 28-year-old former colleague, who worked together with him at CarMax in Sanford, Florida, in 2008 and alleges remorseless bullying.
Speaking anonymously because of fears of getting his family involved with the furore surrounding the Trayvon Martin case, the former car-salesman labelled Zimmerman a 'manipulator' and a liar with a 'great poker face'
Scroll Down for Video

The unidentified man used to work with George Zimmerman at CarMax in Sanford, Florida and claimed persistent bullying by Zimmerman
Speaking to ABC News, the man said that upon joining CarMax four years ago, he quickly became recognised as one of the top salesmen at the car retailership, which invoked the jealously of Zimmerman, who was 24 at the time.
Claiming that Zimmerman would do anything to gain the approval of his colleagues, the unidentified man said that although he does not believe that Zimmerman is racist, he certainly made racially motivated comments towards him.

'He wasn't joking around,' said the man.
'He was choosing his words. He was making fun of my accent, or pretending that I have a thick accent.

The CarMax in Sanford, Florida, where George Zimmerman used to work in 2008 (left) and where it is alleged he bullied a former colleague, 
Alleging that Zimmerman was repeatedly 'impersonating me in a terrorist character,' the man told ABC News that the bullying became so intense that he complained to his superiors in a letter.

'Since I started working in CarMax Sanford, George has been dealing with me in an unprofessional manner and has mastered the art of emerging as the nice guy to others in order to make me look like the unsocial type and out of place,' read the letter.
However, following the complaint, Zimmerman denied all of the accusations.
'The guy was so convincing when he was confronted by management to the point where I doubted my own self,' said the unnamed man.

*'I would not be surprised if he got away with it (the Martin murder charge*).
'He's got, like you say, a good poker face. Great poker face.
'That pretty much summarises this guy's personality.
'Great poker face.'
The man who spoke to ABC with his face blurred, told the interviewer of Zimmerman's childish attitude towards him.

He alleged that Zimmerman gave him 'wrong directions about how to perform my job, and then later made jokes to other employees and manages of how 'stupid' I was to listen'.

The former colleague said that Zimmerman, who is now 28, called him a 'f***ing moron' on numerous occasions and that *it was his success at his job which Zimmerman manipulated against him.*

'Zimmerman noticed the gap, or the unwelcome from some of the other employees and he took that opportunity to pretty much put me as a target, and to make fun of me, bully me around, pretty much harass me 24/7,' alleged the man.
'Just make it difficult for me to work there.'

However, the man did claim that other sympathetic colleagues noticed.
'Other sales people would come and approach me and say, don't worry about this guy, he's a bully, he's an idiot, he's young, he doesn't know what he's doing.'

Read more: Trayvon Martin case: George Zimmerman 'bullied his colleague with racial comments' | Mail Online

----------


## guyinthailand

> GZ's personality problems are chronic and acute.


Pot calling the kettle black.

----------


## ENT

Another O'Mara flash of inspiration!   :Smile: 

GZ's being allowed a make-over to improve his battered image.

*Zimmerman to appear in civilian clothes during Friday b*ond hearing
George Zimmerman, the man charged with second degree murder in the death of Trayvon Martin, will be able to shed the prison garb he has worn for the past several weeks and appear in civilian clothes when he goes before a judge Friday to ask for a second chance at bond.
The decision came late Thursday.

Mark O’Mara, filed a petition with the court this week asking that Zimmerman not be forced to appear Friday in restraints and a prison jumpsuit, which O’Mara worried would color the public’s view of his client. At the time, O’Mara said “the manner in which Mr. Zimmerman is portrayed by the media will have a tremendous impact on his ability to receive a fair trial,” and that showing him in shackles and a prison jumpsuit could prejudice the outcome of his trial. At the April 19 hearing, Zimmerman appeared in a suit, but his hands and ankles were shackled.

*The new bond hearing will take place Friday morning in Sanford, Florida,* where Zimmerman is currently being held in jail. His wife Shellie is charged with perjury for her misleading statements to the court regarding the six-figure sums raised through a website George Zimmerman created before O’Mara became his attorney, and is free on bond. O’Mara admitted to the court previously that Zimmerman had allowed his wife to misrepresent how much money the two had in their bank accounts prior to his April 19 bond hearing, at which a $150,000 bail was set.

The news that Zimmerman will be permitted to appear without shackles and prison garb comes as a Miami Herald report reveals that *Zimmerman previously failed to appear before a court in a 2005 lawsuit he filed over overtime he claimed to be owed* by an employer. In that case, Zimmerman was fined $10,000 for failure to appear, which he reportedly never paid.

Zimmerman to appear in civilian clothes during Friday bond hearing | theGrio


I don't kno how that's going to help him, you can't dress mutton to look like lamb and hope that Judge Lester is going to swallow it.
It's going to take a lot of sauce.   :Smile:

----------


## guyinthailand

> I don't kno how that's going to help him, you can't dress mutton to look like lamb and hope that Judge Lester is going to swallow it.
> It's going to take a lot of sauce.


bENT, where do you come from?  Obviously not somewhere where you might be familiar with the rule of law.  

The rules of evidence don't allow for 'dressing or undressing mutton to look like/unlike lamb" nor does it work on your 'sauce' theory.

If the EVIDENCE can show Zimmerman was not justified in shooting Martin, then he will go to jail.  Otherwise, he won't.

----------


## Panty Hamster

GZ's going to be famous! This will be great. No OJ Simpson here, cause GZ didn't do anything wrong. He will write a book, make a movie maybe, buy a house with all his donation money.

You go GZ.  :AR15firing:  :Masked:

----------


## ENT

GZ's not out on bail yet, and it's likely that the new bail bond will be set at a much higher figure than the first.
Prosecution are keen to see a $1.5 million bail set. based on GZ's actual cash assets.

O'Mara mounted a robust plea fo Zimmerman to be released on the same surety as previously set, but that is highly unlikely.

Judge Lester must weigh all the possible scenarios if GZ is allowed out on bail, including self harm.
That would include being in an environment where others may be induced to attack GZ.

O'Mara must be looking at the possibility of the defence fund shrinking, or even disappearing altogether if GZ does a runner. or ,akes another stupid move.

GZ didn't take the stand at Friday's hearing, O'Mara's got him held back this time, unlike the first bond hearing where GZ foolishly stuck his neck out to apologise to Trayvon's parents, inadvertently contradicting his own earlier words describing Trayvon as a kid.

Zimmerman Snr. spoke at the hearing, another silly move, claiming that the voice heard calling for help was his son's.



*George Zimmerman Bond Hearing Ends Without Decision*
June 29, 2012
George Zimmerman was back in court today with a request that he again be granted bail in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin. 

The hearing, which lasted almost three hours, often better resembled a trial than a typical bond hearing. Judge Kenneth Lester didn't immediately issue a ruling. 

Zimmerman's defense introduced a wide-array of evidence and testimony, including medical records and Zimmerman's own statements, in an apparent attempt to underscore weaknesses in the state's case. 

Defense lawyer Mark O'Mara then began his argument, telling the judge that the evidence doesn't show a "grand conspiracy" to hide money in advance of Zimmerman's first bond hearing. 

He said Zimmerman "should have done something" when his wife testified falsely about the couple's finances. However, he said his client has never missed a court date, isn't a danger to the community, and should be granted bond. 

"I would ask that you let him out on the same $150,00 bond," O'Mara said. He went on to call the second-degree murder charge in the case "improper" and "very weak." Zimmerman, he said, has a "very strong argument of self defense." 

Prosecutor Bernie De La Rionda countered that, if anyone was acting in self-defense, it was Trayvon Martin. De La Rionda described the teen as an "innocent victim" who was profiled. 
"What you have here is basically a defendant who perceives himself as the police out there," De La Rionda said. 

After the hearing, O'Mara said he didn't expect a ruling today. The judge, he said, has eight to 10 hours of evidence to review. 

Zimmerman's bond was revoked by the judge recently after prosecutors alleged that his wife, Shellie Zimmerman, misled the court about the couple's finances at her husband's first bond hearing. 

During the hearing today, George Zimmerman's father took the stand to testify that the voice heard screaming for help in a 911 call moments before the shooting was his son's. 

The prosecution pointed out that George Zimmerman has also said Trayvon Martin was suffocating him before the shooting. Robert Zimmerman said that's not inconsistent with his son being the one yelling for help. 
"From the looks of my son's injuries, Trayvon Martin's hands were not just on his nose and mouth," Robert Zimmerman said. 

O'Mara asked the court to allow George Zimmerman to testify without being cross-examined, but that request was denied. He did not take the stand. 

Earlier in the hearing, the Seminole County probation officer who monitored Zimmerman during his initial release on bond described him as "polite and courteous," a "model client." A Sanford firefighter testified about the injuries Zimmerman suffered the night of the shooting. 



Zimmerman's defense also played a video for the court of the reenactment that Zimmerman conducted with police. Defense lawyer Mark O'Mara also called a forensic financial specialist to testify on his client's finances. 

Adam Magill testified that he performed an evaluation of the Zimmermans' finances, including the PayPal account George Zimmerman set up to solicit donations. 

He testified to the grand total gathered by the fund: Just more than $205,000, minus fees. The Zimmermans used that money for a variety of expenses, including to pay off credit cards. Much of the money has since been transferred in the legal trust set up by his attorneys. 
"There was a lot of money transferred back and forth but ultimately it was all accounted for," said Magill. 

The state then grilled Magill on his testimony. De La Rionda questioned him as to the balance of the Zimmermans' accounts on key dates, demonstrating they had large undisclosed sums in their accounts in the lead-up to Zimmerman's first bond hearing. 
De La Rionda also questioned Magill on why the Zimmermans kept their transfers under $10,000. 

Magill said that was a result of a PayPal rule, not an attempt to avoid reporting requirements, but De La Rionda noted that bank transfers between the Zimmermans' accounts were also kept small and the bank had no such rule. 

Today's hearing began with discussion of motions by Zimmerman's defense to restrict public access to calls he made from jail. About 145 calls were set to be released before the motion. 

"I do think that there is a privacy issue that needs to be addressed," O'Mara said. 
O'Mara also wants to seal the statement of "witness 9". 

She's believed to be Zimmerman's former girlfriend who told Sanford police that Zimmerman has "racist ideologies", according to a police report. O'Mara argues that the release of that statement would be prejudicial to his client. 

Excerpts from
George Zimmerman Bond Hearing Ends Without Decision - HispanicBusiness.com

----------


## S Landreth

Medical records: George Zimmerman had black eyes, painful broken nose but no head trauma - MiamiHerald.com

The morning after he killed Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman went to a clinic with what appeared to be a broken nose, two black eyes and two cuts on the back of his head. But the physicians assistant who treated him determined he neither needed X-rays nor had he suffered head trauma, newly released medical records show.

Zimmerman declined to go to an ear, nose and throat specialist even though it was recommended, noted the physicians assistant, who attended him twice. She also suggested he see a psychologist because of what he had just gone through.

On Tuesday, Zimmermans defense attorney used his website to share the evidence he presented last week in court at his clients bail hearing. He posted statements and recordings from witnesses who saw Zimmerman getting beaten, copies of his interviews with police as well as his medical record from the office visit the morning after he shot Trayvon.

Defense attorney Mark OMara believes the evidence demonstrates that Zimmerman received repeated blows from the unarmed teen and was in reasonable fear for his life when he shot him Feb. 26 in Sanford. He offered the documents to Seminole County Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester, who is expected to rule Thursday on whether to release Zimmerman on bail. OMaras argument: Is it fair for Zimmerman to spend a year in jail before trial for a killing he may never be convicted of?

At the June 29 bond hearing, the defense submitted a number of exhibits into evidence in an effort to demonstrate the weaknesses of the States case against George Zimmerman and illustrate the strength of Mr. Zimmermans claim of self defense, OMara wrote on his site Tuesday.

The medical records document several injuries, but also state that the only reason Zimmerman sought medical attention was because he needed a doctors note to return to work, Duval County Assistant State Attorney Bernie de la Rionda said in court last week.

Prosecutors say Zimmermans injuries are not severe enough for the thrashing he claims to have endured. Zimmerman is charged with second-degree murder and, if convicted, faces a possible life sentence.

De la Rionda had kept the report sealed, citing medical exemptions to public records laws.

The medical report details an overweight man who at 28 suffered from a variety of ailments including tonsil stones and irritable bowel syndrome. His mood was appropriate, and he showed no acute distress.

At 5 feet 7½ inches and 204 lbs, the physician assistant at Altamonte Family Practice described Zimmerman as obese. Zimmermans size compared to Trayvons has been a heated topic of discussion both in court and the blogosphere, as people on opposite sides of the controversial issue debate who had the upper hand during the altercation. Zimmerman was much shorter than the nearly six-foot Trayvon, but was 45 pounds heavier.

The report also said although Zimmerman did not have any blurry vision or dizziness, he said he got nauseous every time he thought of the nights violence.

The report detailed two open wounds on the back of Zimmermans head, one two centimeters and one half a centimeter, which did not require stitches. She described his head as normocephalic and atraumatic  normal and without injuries.

His nose was fractured, hurt, and he suffered joint pain likely because of the assault, the physicians assistant, Lindzee E. Folgate wrote. We discussed that it is likely broken, but does not appear to have septal deviation, the report said. The swelling and black eyes are typical of this injury. I recommended that he be evaluated by ENT but he refused.

His wounds were cleaned by paramedics at the scene, but he did not go to a hospital immediately after the shooting.

Zimmerman claims the Miami Gardens teenager attacked him and slammed his head on concrete. Prosecutors believe Zimmerman profiled the unarmed teenager, because he assumed Trayvon was a criminal.The records show Zimmerman takes a variety of medications, including pills that both elevate your mood and calm it. He suffers from sacroiliitis, inflammation of the joints in the lower spine.

----------


## ENT

“We discussed that it is likely broken, but does not appear to have septal deviation,”

In other words, GZ didn't show signs of any more than a direct bump on the nose higher than the septum. likely just between the eyes.

A sideways punch to the nose could easily have displaced that piece of cartilage

Why did GZ refuse to get that checked out with an X-ray if he thought it was broken?

Was it because he didn't want proof that his nose was _not broken_? After all, the physician onely said that GZ's nose was "likely broken". which is why she told him to get it checked out to confirm if it was or not.

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## S Landreth

Judge: George Zimmerman appeared ready to flee with online donations - MiamiHerald.com

George Zimmermans bond was set at $1 million, and he was ordered to remain in Seminole County while he awaits his murder trial, a judge ruled Thursday.

Zimmerman, Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester said, flouted the system, and appeared to be getting ready to flee with the found money he raised through online donations.

It appears to this court that .. the money only had to be hidden for a short time for him to leave, if the defendant made a quick decision to flee, Lester wrote. The defense attorney Mark OMara presented no evidence to negate the courts impression that the movement of funds and false testimony was to aid and assist the defendant in fleeing the jurisdiction.

He said it looked to him that the only reason Zimmerman didnt make a run for it, was because he was tethered to an electronic monitoring device. His plans, Lester said, were thwarted.

The increased bond is not a punishment, Lester added. It is meant to allay the courts concern that the defendant intended to flee the jurisdiction and a lesser amount would not ensure his presence in court.

Zimmerman had been free on $150,000 bail, but he was sent back to jail last month after his attorney revealed that the defendant had misinformed the court about how much money he had. That misrepresentation, the judge said, could be interpreted as a third-degree felony but he has not been charged.

The state would more accurately describe it as  lied to, Assistant State Attorney Bernie de la Rionda wrote in a motion last week to judge Lester.

Prosecutors provided bank records that showed that on April 20, the day of Zimmermans original bond hearing, he had $135,000 cash at his disposal, even as his family professed to be broke. Taped jailhouse phone calls between him and his wife showed he had instructed her to transfer money he had raised online out of his bank account into hers.

Even though the defendant was in jail at the time, he was intimately involved in the deposit and transfer of money into various accounts, de la Rionda wrote. Defendant was directing the show and used his wife who willingly participated to complete the transfers. The state would argue the defendant didnt just play a part. He was in control at all times and used his wife as a conduit to deceive the court.

At the April 20 hearing, Shellie Zimmerman said under oath that she did not know how much money they had raised and had no assets. She has since been charted with perjury.

Prosecutors also said the taped calls show the couple talking about the whereabouts of Zimmermans second passport.

Lester revoked Zimmermans bond on June 1, and then the defense attorney requested another hearing.

In a three-hour hearing June 29, Zimmermans attorney argued that his client allowed the lie because he was confused and scared.

OMara presented videos, statements, a paramedic and medical records to show that his client will likely be exonerated of the second-degree murder charge. If Zimmerman never gets convicted of murder, OMara argued, it is unfair for him to spend a year in jail pending trial.

He had asked the court to again set bond at $150,000.

As part of the defense teams presentation on the Motion to Set Reasonable Bond, evidence was introduced to the court to show the weaknesses in the States murder case against Mr. Zimmerman and to support Mr. Zimmermans consistently maintained position that he acted in self defense, OMara wrote on his website. Further, we submitted evidence through the testimony of a forensic expert verifying that all the money in question has been properly accounted for.

In his ruling, Lester dismissed OMaras presentation as largely irrelevant. The three hours of testimony from a forensic accountant, a paramedic and others failed to explain why Zimmerman shifted funds around, the judge said.

He added that he could no longer consider Zimmermans family ties as a positive factor, as his family now showed it was willing to lie in court or allow a lie to stand without reporting the fraud. The bond needed to be set high, he said, because Zimmermans loss of money he never earned or saved would be of little consequence to him.

Zimmerman is charged with the Feb. 26 killing of Miami Gardens teenager Trayvon Martin.

Trayvon and Zimmerman got into a physical altercation after the former neighborhood watch volunteer tailed the teen to see where he was headed. Zimmerman maintains that Trayvon broke his nose and slammed his head on the concrete, and that he was forced to shoot to save his life.

Prosecutors believe Zimmerman recklessly hunted the boy down because he had wrongly profiled Trayvon as a criminal.

----------


## ENT

Judge Lester's ruling proves that he's no fool.

George Zimmerman has consistently behaved in an anti-social manner, believing that he is beyond normal convention and that he may say and do with total disregard of acceptable behaviour whatever he wishes to do to achieve his goals.

This is evident in his past history and the prolonged saga of his confrontation with Trayvon Martin and ultimately the law and society at large.

Now that his movements upon release on bail have been further restricted to Seminole county, GZ has little choice but to conform and adhere to the rule of law to which so far, he has shown not much more than blatant disregard.

As the voice analysis test indicates, he believes that his account of events are the truth, when in fact they are a fabrication that he needs to avoid facing a painful reality.

Such defences are used by inadequate personality types as a form of rationalisation, and they will defend themselves in this way to the end.

GZ is supposedly being counselled by a psychologist for diagnosed ADHD. It appears that the psychologist will need the co-operation of a psychiatrist to assist GZ in handling his affairs.

The trial date is not expected to occur until next year. So there's plenty of time for GZ to reflect and to modify his behaviour in preparation for his inevitable public prosecution for his crime.

A question remains though. How will George Zimmerman bear up to the pressure to conform to acceptable standards of behaviour? Cosseted by his family, friends and supporters it is likely that GZ will not be able to face reality in the near or distant future.

Under the circumstances, I don't expect to see GZ's social attitude improving markedly.

Judge Lester's ruling reflects this prognosis, and explains the need to confine George  Zimmerman to Seminole county on electronic bail.

----------


## S Landreth

Zimmerman released on bail - MiamiHerald.com 

George Zimmerman will live in a Seminole County safehouse while awaiting trial, his lawyer said.

George Zimmerman posted bail and walked out of jail Friday, a day after the judge in his second-degree murder case set his new bond at $1 million.

Records show Zimmerman paid $100,000 cash and his parents, Robert and Gladys Zimmerman, put up their home for a bondmans collateral. He will be required to wear an electronic monitoring device and remain in Seminole County. Hell be charged $9.50 a day for the device.

Wearing a suit jacket and dress shirt, he left jail at about 2:50 p.m. He was accompanied by two men and left in a Suburban.

News of Zimmermans high bail caused a bonanza of donations to his legal defense fund, defense attorney Mark OMara announced Friday. Donations increased nearly 20-fold.

Seminole County Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester announced Thursday that Zimmerman could leave jail pending trial if he posted a $1 million bond. OMara said the bond cost Zimmerman $85,000 cash, because he already spent $15,000 on a bondsman fee when he was first released in April.

Zimmermans earlier bond, set at $150,000 on April 20, had been revoked because he misled the court about the amount of money he raised online. The online legal defense site that normally gets about $1,000 in donations a day received an outpouring of support in the past 24 hours.

Since the $1,000,000 bond was made public on July 5, supporters have donated approximately $20,000, OMara said. In the two months prior to the Courts Order Setting Bail, the George Zimmerman Defense Fund had received approximately $55,000.

A temporary safe house has been located where Zimmerman will stay until a more secure location is identified, OMara said.

Zimmerman faces one count of second degree murder for the Feb. 26 killing of Trayvon Martin, a 17-year-old from Miami Gardens. Zimmemran steadfastly maintains that hes innocent of the charge, and had to shoot the unarmed teen to save his own life. The boy, he said, attacked him and broke his nose.

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## ENT

Judge Lester sets terms for GZ's release on $1,000,000 bond.

George Zimmerman: Judge Sends Message with One Million Dollar Bond - YouTube

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## harrybarracuda

^^ "Online legal defense site" ==

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## ENT

Judge Lester's words

Zimmerman&#39;s Fantasy Meets Reality - YouTube

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## ENT

> ^^ "Online legal defense site" ==



Quite an apt picture really.

To add a little grist to the mill, GZ has a collection of body art he'd been "improving" on while he was in jail

How the hell the "improvements" are gonna help him I just don't know, but they certainly give an insight into GZ's mind.
All I see is a guy trying to cover up some past stuff that's spooking him out.    :Smile: 

*Zimmerman Gets New Jail Tattoos*

SANFORD, FL  George Zimmerman, the recently jailed killer of Trayvon Martin, has recently added new tattoos to his body while incarcerated.
Along with his two brand new additions, he also further elaborated upon already existing ones, claiming, I was in the process of having them done before I accidentally committed a murder.
His established collection already featured standout selections such as; *a burning cross* decorating his chest; a detailed illustration of a Confederate flag across his belly; and two separately worded thoughts on the back of either shoulder, reading *stupid coons, and I hate black people,* respectively, and written in black ink.

All of these however were only partially completed at the time of Zimmermans incarceration.  Since being locked up, however, he has found time to finish work on them, finally bringing to fruition his true visions for body art.

Next to the burning cross adorning his chest is now a crudely-drawn stick figure throwing what appears to be a bucket of water on the flames, though to some it may appear as though the figure is dousing said flames with gasoline.  Putting the finishing touches on *the Confederate flag tattoo on his belly, Zimmerman appears to have surrounded it with a thick red circle and diagonal line slashing through it, reminiscent of a no smoking sign.*

Apparently the words stupid coons were only the beginning of a desired sentence, as Zimmerman now sports the logo *Stupid coons, always getting into my trash. * The now complete sentence is also joined now by a clarifying and cute rendering of a raccoon, sifting mischievously through an overturned trash can.

Zimmermans second prominent tattoo, which formerly read *I hate black people,* slogan, was inked incorrectly by his former tattoo artist; now, however, it conveys exactly what Zimmerman initially intended. Clearly, someone in the clink was skilled enough to masterfully change the letter I into the letter t and add more letters in front of it, so that it now reads *I dont hate black people.*

Joining Zimmermans recently completed tattoos are two new ones, both in keeping with his obvious demeanor.  An old hippie peace symbol now rests directly over his heart, and on his lower back is the sole word kumbaya.  *Good thing Zimmerman added these two to his preexisting collection, or people might have prematurely labeled him a racist of sorts  a grievous error for sure.*  :Smile: 

Zimmerman Gets New Jail Tattoos | The Washington Fancy

He has another on his left upper arm, a laughing/crying  "drama" two faced tat, with a few words I can't read.

Laugh now, cry later, eh.    :mid:

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## harrybarracuda

> I was in the process of having them done before I accidentally committed a murder.


Hmmmm, how do you "accidentally commit a murder", when a murder is:




> *mur·der/ˈmərdər/*
> 
> Noun:The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.


Does that count as a confession then?

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## ENT

Virtually. 

The FBI investigation into GZ's case isn't over yet.

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## jamescollister

> Virtually. 
> 
> The FBI investigation into GZ's case isn't over yet.


 The investigation is over, the FBI can sit on what it has and  they have the same as the locals.Maybe re arrest GZ on a Fed race hate crime if he walks. They will be standing on very slippy ground as he will have been found not guilty by the state. The only time I have heard of Federal laws being used is when the state has been unable to bring a charge. If the Feds had anything they can charge him now. You can't just sit around when a crime is committed and see what others do. If he committed a Federal crime then he has to be arrested  Jim

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## Panty Hamster

Nigra smashed his head in the pavement, neighborhood watchman put a fukkin hole in his heart.

Seems pretty open-and shut-to me.

Cheep-cheep on the Nigger-watch. What's left to argue? I'da shot that fukker 20x before he approached me.

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## ENT

I don't think we've heard everything about George yet.
He's as cunning as a shithouse rat.

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## harrybarracuda



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## ENT

Well,what an interesting read, it fleshes out the story a bit more. Relying on this account alone, one would think that GZ had absolutely no racial prejudice, yet another witness claimed that he was harassed and bullied by GZ at work.

There's more to come, IMO.

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## S Landreth

George Zimmerman wants a new judge

A Florida neighborhood watch volunteer who shot an unarmed black teen to death on Friday requested that a new judge preside over his murder trial, accusing the current judge of bias against him.

The State Attorneys Office quickly objected to the motion filed by attorneys for George Zimmerman, and said it would file a formal response early next week.

The 28-year-old has pleaded not guilty to second-degree murder, claiming that he acted in self-defense when he shot dead Trayvon Martin, 17, during a confrontation in the Florida town of Sanford in February.

Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester revoked Zimmermans initial $150,000 bail after the defendant and his wife Shellie were accused of lying about funds they had raised through a website and set a higher bail at $1 million.

Zimmerman posted bail and is currently living in a safe house in Florida.

The court has created a reasonable fear in Mr Zimmerman that this court is biased against him and because of this prejudice, he cannot receive a fair and impartial trial or hearing by this court, Zimmermans attorney Mark OMara wrote in his motion to disqualify the judge.

The court makes gratuitous, disparaging remarks about Mr Zimmermans character; advocates for Mr Zimmerman to be prosecuted for additional crimes; offers a personal opinion about the evidence for said prosecution and continues to hold over Mr Zimmermans head the threat of future contempt proceedings.

On its website, Zimmermans legal team said it had filed the motion after lengthy discussions among the defense team and with George.

The motion marked the second time Zimmerman has asked for a new judge in the racially charged case that has sparked nationwide protests.

His lawyers had asked for Judge Jessica Recksiedler, who was initially assigned to the case, to be disqualified, citing a potential conflict of interest with her. The request was granted and the case was turned over to Lester.

OMara said Zimmerman fears that the court has already decided that he is not worthy of belief regardless of the type of proceeding or the corroborating evidence that would support his testimony.

Zimmerman told police he had been tracking Martin, whom he had viewed as suspicious, and shot and killed the teenager after being assaulted by him.

Witnesses reported seeing a scuffle but it is not clear who threw the first punch or what ensued.

The case caused nationwide consternation, mainly over authorities initial reluctance to press charges against Zimmerman, who insists that he acted within his rights in self-defense under Floridas controversial Stand Your Ground law.

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## ENT

O'Mara's losing the plot! He must be desperate to try that trick of dismissing the judge.

Sounds as though GZ's not feeling very confident either, to get O'Mara jumping like that after the latest round of evidence divulgence.

This line in O'Mara's petition tickles me;

“The court has created a reasonable fear in Mr Zimmerman that this court is biased against him".

I thought the court was being very reasonable in allowing GZ out on bail again and at a normal bail bond rate based on his assets.
Similarly with Shellie Zimmerman, her bond rate was miniscule compared to others in the same position.

GZ and O"Mara are pushing their luck.

Zimmerman's deluded, and i think always has been after having read more on his background.

There's a lot of speculation pro and con the man, but taking all the information together, he doesn't present a very savoury self image.

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## S Landreth

Witness 9 accused Zimmerman of sexually molesting her - MiamiHerald.com

A statement from a witness who said Zimmerman molested her over a period of 10 years was made public Monday, despite a last-minute effort from the defense to keep the statement from being released.

Despite a last-minute rush to the courthouse by the defense to keep a witness story out of public view, the Duval County State Attorney on Monday released a recorded statement from a woman who said George Zimmerman molested her when they were both children, beginning when she just six years old.

The families lived in different states, but the incidents took place during annual visits for as long as 10 years, she said.

The woman, whose name was not released, called investigators just days after the shooting of Trayvon Martin to say that Zimmerman and his family were racists who disliked blacks. As investigators probed weeks later, she made even more damaging allegations.

The recordings, taped March 20, make clear that the woman called the Seminole County State Attorneys Office on March 19 with information she wanted to share. She was interviewed by investigators Jim Rick and Jim Post from the state attorneys office.

The woman said she is two years younger than Zimmerman. From the statement, its clear their families were close. When she was 6 and her family was in the process of moving from Louisiana to Orlando, she and her sister were sent to stay with the Zimmermans at their home in Virginia, she said.

The children would hang out on sofas under blankets watching TV, and Zimmerman, she claims, would use the opportunity to fondle her and penetrate her with his fingers.

Thats my earliest memory of him trying to do things. He would reach under the blankets, she said. He was bigger, and stronger and older. I was a kid. I didnt know any better.

Zimmermans defense attorney, Mark OMara, filed a motion Monday to put a stop to a judges ruling that ordered the release of hundreds of his clients jailhouse phone calls and the statement from the witness, known in court records as witness 9. But his motion apparently did not reach the Duval County state attorney in time, because the statements were posted shortly after 11 a.m. Monday as scheduled.

OMara had been in a furious quest to seal statements from witness 9, saying her allegations were incendiary, irrelevant and would ruin his clients chance at a fair trial.

The portion of witness 9s statement that the Zimmerman family disliked blacks was made public weeks ago, but the defense urged the judge to seal the rest of it. After Seminole Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester ruled to make the statement public, OMara asked the judge to reconsider. A second hearing on the matter was held last month, and on Friday the judge ruled again to make the statement public.

The judge also ordered the release of about 150 of Zimmermans jailhouse phone calls, which OMara wanted sealed.

The judge said in his ruling that nothing in Floridas public-records law allows for such information to be kept secret. By law, evidence the prosecution turns over to the defense  called discovery  is public record. There are exceptions for things such as telecommunications records and confessions.

Lawyers for The Miami Herald, the Orlando Sentinel and other media argued for the release of the calls and the witness statement. At the June 29 hearing, the media attorneys argued against sealing the statements, and Assistant State Attorney Bernie de la Rionda said he may call witness 9 as a rebuttal witness at trial.

there's a page two at the Herald,........

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## ENT

This makes me think that the prosecution's got something pretty heavy to deal GZ with later.
I can't see them disclosing every piece of information they have until they decide it's going to be deemed as evidence, thus discoverable to the defence attorneys. 

The prosecution is calling the shots in a very calculated and measured strategy that they consider essential to successfully prosecute Zimmerman.

The question arises though, will Zimmerman be able to take the pessure while waiting for the case to be resolved?

Or will he negotiate a plea bargain?

Interesting developments.

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## harrybarracuda

Nahhh. They are just trying to paint him as an unstable person, so that they can argue his actions were that of a paranoid racist, not an innocent neighbourhood watch volunteer brutally assaulted whilst out watering the garden.

Reckon it will backfire on appeal, how can he be seen to get a fair trial with all this public slagging going on?

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## jamescollister

> Well,what an interesting read, it fleshes out the story a bit more. Relying on this account alone, one would think that GZ had absolutely no racial prejudice, yet another witness claimed that he was harassed and bullied by GZ at work.
> 
> There's more to come, IMO.


Makes not the slightest difference if GZ was a Neo Nazi, or a full member of the KKK.  Read the above statement, GZ remembers 3 witnesses come out and look. What their statements say has not been released, but they were from homes at the scene. If they have not fled the country they will have been interviewed. If they put Martin on top and GZ screaming for help, self defense, or GZ is so smart he killed Martin, put the body on top of himself to set the scene. Think not, he should not have been arrested in the first place. Jim

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## harrybarracuda

Interesting point. What if he'd already drawn the gun and Martin had dived on him to stop him getting a shot off? Isn't that self defence as well?

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## jamescollister

> Interesting point. What if he'd already drawn the gun and Martin had dived on him to stop him getting a shot off? Isn't that self defence as well?


No one has put the firearm in GZs hand prior to the struggle, if he had drawn it before the fight a different story, he would then have been the aggressor.
      Trouble I see with the whole case, is the time line, Martin was walking home and had passed GZ, why did he not just go to his G/fs house. So how did Martin get between GZ and his car if he did not double back  or hide in the bushes. Remember at this point the only contact between Martin and GZ is eye contact while GZ was in his car. The G/F makes no mention of why Martin decided not to continue home. This begs the question as to why, did he drop his skittles and back track to find them, or did he go back to teach a fat short white boy not to disrespect him by eyeballing him. 
Odds are he told the G/F and she has not been as upfront as she should have been.
The State seems to be putting out a lot of info on GZs life, but very little about the case it's self. Where are the eye witness statements, where is the case that disproves GZs account of the night. Doesn't seem to be anything to justify laying charges of murder 2, except to appease the black community.
Think of the uproar if a black was charged without any real evidence because the whites threatened to riot if they didn't. Jim

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## Panty Hamster

I'd have shot him too, but probably in the face first.
Most likely a head, heart double-tap. You hit the head first because that really stops someone whose punching you in the face. A chest shot might allow him to get one more punch in. Unacceptable.

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## ENT

> Nahhh. They are just trying to paint him as an unstable person, so that they can argue his actions were that of a paranoid racist, not an innocent neighbourhood watch volunteer brutally assaulted whilst out watering the garden.
> 
> Reckon it will backfire on appeal, how can he be seen to get a fair trial with all this public slagging going on?


It was O'Mara who wanted the issue on the internet as he thought Zimmerman needed the publicity.

It looks as though the deal's backfiring on him, as he's no starting to say it's not fair.

Judge Lester seems a pretty shrewd sort of bloke and I think he's handled the case well so far.

I still think that a plea bargain might result out of this, for GZ to do a short stretch rather than for Lester to have to go through a really crazy jury selection for the 2nd degree murder charge then, whichever way the verdict goes the judge is going to cop the flack.
This is only my opinion,

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## harrybarracuda

Like the OJ trial, it's going to make millions for the TV companies and achieve that well known stately home: Fuck Hall.

Added: I forgot the phrases "Show trial", "Kangaroo court" and "Americans have the attention spat of a gnat these days".

 :Smile:

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## ENT

That's how I see it too. US is in a sad state of mind. The larger part of the population knee-jerking to the leaders of whichever group or party they're affiliated to, while a minority get on with the business of life. Calling Americans reactionary would be an understatement.

This case does indeed reflect the hullabaloo of the OJ trial, public opinion and highly profiled lawyers on a personality cult trip featuring self promotion and drama rather than skilled and well crafted argument to in a case.
It's very much a  kangaroo court system, whether in the public arena of the media or in the court.
The term _pro bono_ has a different meaning in America, it seems, as O'Mara milks the situation for all it's worth

This may have something to do with the way the film industry have ruled US opinions for decades, egged on and promoted by the media, the two in an unholy mix with the government in dissemination of propaganda rather than the truth.

I'm still banking on Lester to put a straight edge to the case, though, so far, even if he does seem overbearing at times, he appears to be the sanest party to have come under the spotlight  in the case.

----------


## jamescollister

One thing I don't understand about the whole thing. All the evidence is in, the prosecution can't have more witnesses or forensic not yet dealt with. Don't know Florida law, but a defended in normally entitled to a speedy trial.
If all parties are prepared why the wait, they could go to trial next week. Or is it a delaying tactic in the hope that everyone will forget about it and when GZ walks no one will notice.  Both parties would need to be involved, which would mean some deal has already been made. Maybe someone who understands Florida can explain why the long wait and if the evidence is so thing, as it appears to be, why no grand jury for the indictment. Jim

----------


## harrybarracuda

Have they even decided if there is going to be a trial by the way? Or is this all for the benefit of a grand jury?

----------


## ENT

A trial date is expected to be set after full disclosure process is over and the trial is not expected to be until next year.

Zimmerman had waived his rights to a speedy trial, and O'Mara is hoping that a trial by media will benefit GZ.

So far, I think his plan has beckfired, but he's got to keep the GZ fund appeal going lo garner some cash to pay his expenses.

----------


## harrybarracuda

No grand jury then?

----------


## jamescollister

> Have they even decided if there is going to be a trial by the way? Or is this all for the benefit of a grand jury?


He on bail/bond for murder 2 , too late for a grand jury. As I said don't know much about Florida or the US legal system, but it would appear they went straight to a murder indictment, so may be ,not enough evidence to get a grand jury indictment. Politics playing around in the legal system, remember the State brought in a special prosecutor, why because the locals didn't see a charge. 
Special prosecuters seem to be used for hard to convict mafia type trials, not run of the mill murder cases. Jim

----------


## harrybarracuda

Thanks for the clarification.

----------


## S Landreth

FOX NEWS CHANNELS HANNITY TO PRESENT EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH GEORGE ZIMMERMAN

FOX News Channels (FNC) Sean Hannity has secured the first interview with George Zimmerman, the suspect accused of killing Florida teenager Trayvon Martin, which will be presented exclusively during Hannity tonight at 9PM/ET for the entire hour .

Zimmerman will open up about what happened the night of Trayvon Martins death and his experience in the aftermath of the fatal shooting. Additionally, Zimmermans defense attorney Mark OMara will answer questions regarding his clients case and rumors circulating about the bail donations and hidden money.

how to: pitching softballs

----------


## ENT

That'll be fun for anyone with any knowledge of kinesics.    :Smile:

----------


## sabang

> Zimmerman will open up about what happened the night of Trayvon Martin’s death


I'm pretty sure this would be illegal in Australia and the UK. Zimmerman is facing charges, his guilt or innocence is yet to be established- and as per the law, it will be decided by due legal process, not populist media. He remains 'innocent until proven guilty', but the matter is _sub judicae_ and it is at his trial that culpability or otherwise will be established. Will we be seeing media interviews with witnesses too?

----------


## ENT

It certainly isn't allowed under Crown Law, as the matter is currently being argued in a court of law and thus by jurisprudence all evidences are privy to counsel only, to avoid tainting the jury pool.

----------


## Panty Hamster

Yes, only the president and his herd of negro race-baiterrs along with the prosecution are the only ones who should be permitted a voice.
Silence those who disagree. NOW!

Quick! Where is the delete button on GZ's defense? He's not allowed to have a say in this! Where are the moderators?

Do you imbeciles realize how ignorant you appear? Nah, didn't think so.

Not everybody subscribes to the laughingstock jurisprudence systems the UK and her commonwealth lackeys employ. Twats in wigs!

----------


## S Landreth

Zimmerman granting an interview to his base to come out and support him. He needs your money FOX news watchers: GEORGE ZIMMERMAN LEGAL DEFENSE FUND

George Zimmerman, in an interview Wednesday with Fox News' Sean Hannity, called the shooting death of unarmed teen Trayvon Martin a "tragic situation" and "the most difficult thing I'll ever go through in my life."

But Zimmerman, a volunteer neighborhood watch leader, also spoke in detail about what happened that fateful night in February, saying he had followed Martin because he looked suspicious running between houses in the rain.

Martin soon turned to confront Zimmerman and "asked me what my problem was" before the exchange escalated into violence, Zimmerman told Hannity in his first TV interview, conducted in an undisclosed location in Florida. The 28-year-old, with his attorney sitting by his side, said he reached into his pocket to find his phone to call 911 for a second time, and "I looked up and he punched me and broke my nose."

At one point Zimmerman said he heard Martin "telling me he’s going to kill me."
Zimmerman is charged with second-degree murder for shooting and killing 17-year-old Martin on Feb. 26 in Sanford, Fla., though he says he acted in self-defense. At first, "I didn't think I hit him," Zimmerman said, adding he only found out later that Martin had died.

Now he is in hiding and said he feels his life is in jeopardy, based on death threats he has received. He told Fox News that on the night of the shooting he had gone out to shop at Target -- "that's the last time I've been home."

The case drew intense national attention as speculation grew about the motives for the shooting, especially given that Martin was black. Zimmerman has white and Hispanic heritage.

He dismissed suggestions by some that he acted out of racism.


OK: Zimmerman needs your money | Fox News


For some of you who don’t know about the criminal court system in Florida,……

When you’re asked to sit on a jury (I have been asked more than a couple times) you are first requested to fill out a form with some general questions.

For example (there are many more),….

Your name
Your address
Have you ever been convicted of a felony
Have you ever been a juror before
Have you ever been named in a case that has gone into litigation.

Yada yada yada

If I was the prosecuting attorney, I would ask the judge if one more question could be added to the list of questions.

What (top two) news organizations do you get your news from?

I think because of the interview they would have every right to ask the question. And if any prospective juror said they received their news from FOX, I would (if a prosecuting attorney) release them from the jury pool. It would also weed out the retards.  :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

Ah fuck it was cringeworthy. He gave this well-coached apology, threw in a bit of lip trembling and fake welling up.

If they can't convict him they should nominate him for a soap award.

His eyes are too close together, he's a shifty little fucker like that Ricky Ponting.

George Zimmerman



Ricky Ponting

----------


## S Landreth

More twists as Zimmerman takes his case public -  MiamiHerald.com

The George Zimmerman case took an unexpected turn Thursday when the murder suspect tried calling ABC to go on the air live and then posted videos of himself on the web.

Has George Zimmerman gone rogue?

He launched his own Internet site Wednesday night (TheRealGeorgeZimmerman.com), saying his lawyers web page had failed in three key missions: disputing information, fund-raising and providing a voice for him.

And a voice hes offering: late Thursday, he posted a bilingual video of himself on YouTube, reaching out to supporters as news spread that his legal defense fund had been virtually depleted.

The new website went up just hours after he backed out of an interview with television personality Barbara Walters, because the network refused to pay for a month of hotel and security for Zimmermans wife. Then he called Walters to apologize  during her live TV show The View.

He is desperate for money, Walters said on the air. He is very worried about his family and his wife and parents and has gotten death threats. Its hardly a good situation for anyone.

A flurry of bizarre turns the past two days suggest Zimmerman has begun to break away from the advice of his lawyer and take matters into his own hands. Legal experts say its a risky move for him to go so public, when he still faces the prospect of life in prison. Some question his attorneys judgment in allowing him to continue that behavior.

The client always calls the shots, his lawyer, Mark OMara said Thursday. If youre on the streets or about to be hungry and worried for the wife you love, maybe you have to make decisions along the way.

Walters flew to Central Florida Wednesday in the hopes of securing a sit-down interview with Zimmerman, who gained national notoriety for the Feb. 26 shooting of an unarmed Miami Gardens teenager named Trayvon Martin. She said despite advice from his attorney to do the interview, Zimmerman showed up in a T-shirt and made a deal-breaking last-minute demand.

She and her crew packed up and went back to New York, only to get a call from him and OMara the next morning during her live show. She politely declined to take the call.

He just wanted to thank her for being gracious and to apologize, OMara said. We werent expecting to do an interview live on her show.OMara said the former neighborhood watch volunteer made the request for hotel and security because he is frantically worried over finances. He fears he will get arrested for misleading the court about his finances, and is upset about the perjury charge his wife was slapped with.

Zimmerman also has been hammered by another spate of negative publicity. This month alone, a judge accused him of trying to abscond with contributions from the public, a childhood sexual molestation accusation was revealed Monday, and at least two witnesses told authorities that his mom dislikes blacks.

Zimmerman appears to be exhibiting similar behavior that led to his break with his first set of attorneys, who quit the case in a nationally televised press conference. Back then, they said Zimmerman was not taking their calls, had reached out to the prosecutor and to conservative talk show host Sean Hannity, and launched a legal defense fund that rivaled one they had set up with Zimmermans dad.

OMara is not in control over the situation and has got to pull the reins in, said Miami Beach criminal defense lawyer Michael Grieco, who has been following the case. Zimmerman is a loose cannon...he cant see past his nose.




STFU, stoopid! There is a second page in the link

----------


## robuzo

Zimmerman said he regretted nothing because he believed “it was all God’s plan.” Therefore, I think would be good of God to look after the finances of the instrument of His earthly will.

Teh crazee.

----------


## ENT

Predictably, GZ is hanging himself as his desperation grows. He might yet be judged criminally insane if he continues in the direction he's heading.

In the Hannity interview he clearly lied twice.

Once by saying that he'd not been home since the shooting, when he in fact had apparently, and talked about it on the phone with his wife as she told him where the second passport was, while he was jailed after his arrest.

The second bald faced lie was when he said that he didn't know anything about the SYG law. 

To be able to get a concealed carry permit which he obviously must have had, it is necessary under Florida law that he is aware of the legal aspects of carrying a gun for self defence. 

If I remember correctly, this point is referred to under a "section 208" of a Florida statute pertaining to gun laws in that state.

He would have also known about such a law as it was such a controversial topic well before he shot Martin, and he immediately claimed to shoot him in self defence because he felt he had reasonable fear of Martin's actions.

As a law school student at the time studying to join either the police or to become a judge, knowledge of that law was essential to graduate.

He was a couple of courses shy of graduating, but he still had a graduation party along with students who had graduated, but no one saw his diploma, he was just a phony wannabe in search of attention.

And Trayvon Martin's death was God's plan?

The guy's a nutter.

----------


## alwarner

C'mon guys, look at him with his dog.  Must be innocent.



FFS!

----------


## ENT

A roll over called for?   :Smile:

----------


## alwarner

It could have only been topped if there was a snap shot of him kissing a black baby, or rescuing orphans in Congo.

----------


## ENT

What are we in for in the next exciting instalment of the Zimbomara show?

We've just seen a surprising disappearing money trick to cap his god's plan sermon, so I reckon he's gonna try a tightrope act next.    :Smile:

----------


## ENT

*Next Instalment.*

 Friday, July 20, 2012
*George Zimmerman re-launches website to raise funds*

SANFORD, Fla. — George Zimmerman *re-launched his website* on Friday. *He took down the site,* "the real Zimmerman.com" for a few hours Thursday night, after posting a brand new video of himself rallying support and donations.

He said the site is to communicate with his supporters, set the facts straight and to try to raise money.
"My goal is to personally, and individually, thank you all," wrote Zimmerman.

The 28-year-old *posted video just hours after his interview* with Sean Hannity.  In the video, he speaks directly to his core supporters who are confident he killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in self-defense.
"It's our website where you can personally communicate with me. And I hope to be your website to provide facts," Zimmerman said.

Several months ago, when Mark O'Mara agreed to represent Zimmerman, the attorney forced his client to take the website down. However, *O'Mara said he approved the re-launch and the video.*

WFTV learned that the *$211,000 that Zimmerman had in his defense fund last week was wiped out* by miscellaneous expenses, security and the second bond he paid to get out of jail.

Zimmerman has *only raised a few thousand dollars since the Hannity interview*, but O'Mara said that's because Hannity did not keep his promise to promote the new website.
George Zimmerman re-launches website to raise funds | www.wftv.com



Zimbo's spent well over $100,000 in security and "expenses" since the bucks started rolling in.

He's been looked after in safe houses, so why the need for extra security? He's reportedly bought more guns and body armour and has a yen for hired SUVs with blacked out windows, sometimes two hire cars at a time when travelling.

Now he's got an electronic monitor on him and he's confined to the state, maybe his expenses are going not to be as high as before, just heaps of snack foods and pills this time. Should save a few bucks, unless of course he lashes out on a new Bible, so's he can talk better with God and get instructions on the next move in "God's plan" in the deal.

Hell, he might become a deacon, yet.    :mid:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Yes, only the president and his herd of negro race-baiterrs along with the prosecution are the only ones who should be permitted a voice.
> Silence those who disagree. NOW!
> 
> Quick! Where is the delete button on GZ's defense? He's not allowed to have a say in this! Where are the moderators?
> 
> Do you imbeciles realize how ignorant you appear? Nah, didn't think so.
> 
> Not everybody subscribes to the laughingstock jurisprudence systems the UK and her commonwealth lackeys employ. Twats in wigs!


You sound like you still haven't forgiven us for abolishing slavery.

----------


## robuzo

And then supporting the Confederacy during the US Civil War. Thanks.

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## harrybarracuda

I still don't know why they called it a Civil war. Sounds like it was extremely rude if you ask me.

----------


## ENT

*Role reversal.*

*
Trayvon Martin killing: what if George Zimmerman were black?*
*Would Trayvon Martin’s killer be given a primetime platform to raise money if their races were swapped?*                        Allison Samuels on Fox News’s baffling decision to give George Zimmerman a chance to gain sympathy
19 Jul 2012

Making his first television network appearance last night on Fox News, a perfectly coifed George Zimmerman apologized for killing 17-year-old Trayvon Martin—while in the same breath admitted he’d do nothing different if he had the chance. As Zimmerman, who appeared dazed during parts of the interview, discussed the events that led to the death of an unarmed high-school student simply walking home from the 7-Eleven, it was difficult to imagine a similar chain of events occurring if the tables were turned.

Just prior to yesterday’s interview, Zimmerman’s lawyer Mark O’Mara released a statement boldly admitting that part of the reason for the appearance on Fox was to raise money for his client’s defense. Zimmerman has already received a pretty staggering amount of donations since his arrest this past April. So much so that in June, his bail was revoked due to the fact he failed to report at least $150,000in an online account donated from his many supporters. What if every criminal was allowed a prime time interview in order to raise money for his or her defense?

Let’s take it further. Imagine for just a moment if Zimmerman were a black man (Zimmerman is the product of a white father and Hispanic mother). He shoots and kills an unarmed white teenager because said teenager “appeared” to be acting suspicious in his neighborhood community one night. Though the now dead teenager has only a cell phone, Skittles, and iced tea on him, the black man who pulled the trigger not only gets to go home that very night, but he remains free for another 44 days, reportedly because of a self-defense law called “stand your ground.” Only marches and public outcry by white leaders lead to his arrest, but he isn’t in jail long. Even after it’s revealed that he wasn’t truthful with the courtabout his finances and ability to flee the country, he’s freed once again and then given an extended Hollywood-style interview on a top-rated news program to tell his ever changing story.

*And Zimmerman’s story does change.* The night of the shooting, he told the police dispatcher that Martin was running away in the rain, causing him to become concerned. Last night he told Fox News that the teen was not running but skipping in the rain. That’s a big difference.

Zimmerman and his lawyer also explained to Fox News that he didn’t ignore a Sanford police dispatcher’s clear instructions to stay in his car and not follow the young man with the hoodie running/skipping in the rain. Zimmerman, who lived in the community, said he got out of his vehicle not to follow Martin but to check the street name for the dispatcher. *Shouldn’t a person so staunchly committed to safety, order, and the neighborhood watch know the street names in his own community?*

*Would anyone honestly give a 28-year-old black man the benefit of the doubt telling the same story* when a Sanford police officer filed a report that night stating clearly that this tragedy was avoidable had Zimmerman just followed instructions and stayed in his car? Would Fox or any other major news channel dare give him 40 minutes to explain away the senseless death of someone’s child who’d done nothing but walk home from the store with a hoodie on while being black? *What network would offer a black man a chance to “humanize” himself in an effort to raise more money for his defense for murdering someone* whom he deemed “unfit” for his neighborhood but had committed no crime?    

*And would thousands of strangers send money to support a black man* who instead of showing real remorse to the parents of the teenager killed by saying he’d do anything to avoid their child dying at his hands, actually had the gall to say on TV that it was God’s will that the events of that night happened? As Trayvon Martin’s father Tracy said in a statement late last night, “We must worship a different God.’’

Imagine anyone being truly sympathetic to a black man who admitted he never once identified himself to the teenager as a member of the neighborhood watch, which may have given the teenager a very real reason to be afraid for his own life. It’s difficult to believe anyone would be so sympathetic if the tables were indeed turned, and the faces of the accused and the deceased were reversed. But sadly, George Zimmerman is and will continue to be a hero to far too many willing and ready to believe that an unarmed young black teenager minding his own business got exactly what he deserved when he was shot to death that February night.

Trayvon Martin killing: what if George Zimmerman were black? - Telegraph

----------


## harrybarracuda

> *Would Trayvon Martins killer be given a primetime platform to raise money if their races were swapped?*


Of course not. Fox and its drooling viewers can barely conceal the fact that they hate blacks.

----------


## Panty Hamster

Of course he would. Petty house burglars turned into aggravated assault criminals deserve to get shot through the heart irrespective of race.

Again. This case isn't about race.

Everyone should think twice before they decide to attack someone. You might well end up getting _Trayvonned_.

----------


## harrybarracuda

^ Case in point.

----------


## ENT

Agreed.

----------


## ENT

*The show must go on, another GZ website.*

George Zimmerman: Zimmerman's parents launch fundraising website
11:26 a.m. EST, July 27, 2012

George Zimmerman's parents, Robert and Gladys, appear to have recently launched a fundraising website in the wake of the Trayvon Martin shooting to help with their living expenses.

The website's purpose is three-fold, according to a lengthy message attributed to Zimmerman's father on the homepage.

Robert Zimmerman wants to give the public a "brief and honest" description of their son who has been "portrayed savagely" in the media; explain what life has been like for the family since the Feb 26 shooting; and to ask for monetary support.

"My wife and I have only requested prayers thus far and we have refused to accept any donations or payments whatsoever for any purpose," Robert Zimmerman wrote on the website. "However, we fully realize that the peaceful, secure life we once knew is now just a memory."

Robert Zimmerman's wrote a long message about his family, how the couple raised their children and why they relocated to Central Florida.

It also describes phone calls and letters from people who threatened to "kill anyone with George's DNA."

After that note was left on the door to their Lake Mary home, Robert Zimmerman decided to relocate his wife and mother-in-law, according to the website. Since then, the family has had to relocate several times.

George Zimmerman recently reactivated his own website, TheRealGeorgeZimmerman.com, with the stated hope of attracting his own donations to bolster his legal defense fund, which he says was largely depleted so he could post the $1 million bond recently ordered by the judge in his second-degree murder case.

Zimmerman's defense team also has its own website, as well as Facebook and Twitter accounts.

Zimmerman, a Neighborhood Watch volunteer, told police he shot Trayvon after the teenager knocked him to the ground, got on top of him and began pounding his head onto a sidewalk.

Prosecutors say Zimmerman profiled, pursued and killed the teen.

Read more:
George Zimmerman parents website: George Zimmerman's parents launched a fundraising website - Orlando Sentinel

----------


## ENT

*Shellie Zimmerman's big day out.*  :Smile: 


SANFORD (AP) - The wife of former neighborhood watch leader George Zimmerman is being arraigned.
But the court hearing Tuesday in Sanford, Fla., is expected to be uneventful since Shellie Zimmerman already has entered a plea of not guilty to a perjury charge.

She waived her requirement to attend and wasn't going to be present during the hearing. Because of that, the judge won't call her name although it remains on the docket.

Prosecutors allege Shellie Zimmerman misled a judge about how much money she and her husband had at his April bond hearing. She testified that they had meager resources even though they had raised at least $135,000 in donations from a Web site set up for Zimmerman's defense.

Zimmerman is charged with fatally shooting Trayvon Martin. He is pleading not guilty.

Read more: Arraignment for Shellie Zimmerman - FOX 35 News Orlando

----------


## ENT

O'Mara's desperate attempt to have Judge Lester removed from the Trayvon Martin murder case has been soundly rejected by the judge on the grounds that O'Mara's motion was legally insufficient, as it is.

Zimmerman's approach towards this case is nothing short of bizarre as he moves from one desperate excuse to another in his attempt tp wriggle away from justice.

Three web sites are now running in appeals to  the gullible public for more financial aid as GZ ploughs his way through more than a quarter of a million dollars so far donated.

Trying to buy time and a new judge favourable to his defence shows the real desperation GZ is feeling as the public starts to grow sick of his endless attempts at painting himself as a God fearing good guy, his self promotion now falling on deaf ears.

----

Zimmerman judge: No, I won't step aside
9:04 p.m. EST, August 1, 2012


SANFORD — The ball is back in Mark O'Mara's court.

Weeks after O'Mara and co-counsel Don West asked Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester Jr. to remove himself from the second-degree murder case against George Zimmerman, Lester on Wednesday rejected their request.


The defense now has two choices: Appeal Lester's ruling to a higher court or move forward with a judge who once wrote that Zimmerman had "flouted" the criminal justice system.

It was statements like those, used by Lester in a bond order, that led Zimmerman's defense to request his recusal, fearing that their client could no longer get a fair trial with this judge.

O'Mara hasn't said whether he will appeal, but Shawn Vincent, who manages Zimmerman's legal defense fund website, said once the defense has a "thoughtful response" they will post it online.

"I'm surprised he didn't excuse himself," said Orlando defense lawyer Richard Hornsby after Lester's ruling. He said O'Mara should absolutely challenge the ruling.

"My opinion is that he has no choice," Hornsby said. "His motion [to recuse Lester] was so extensive. I think they are all in."

An appeal would go to the Fifth District Court of Appeal. Hornsby said O'Mara has 10 days to decide. If he appeals and loses, "then O'Mara has to deal with it and move forward," he said.

In a bond order, Lester described Zimmerman as a manipulator who was gaming the criminal justice system by hiding $130,000 and keeping a secret passport. The judge wrote that, if not for court-ordered satellite monitoring, Zimmerman might well have fled.

He also suggested Zimmerman could face a contempt charge, something the judge himself would be required to level – not prosecutors. Winter Spring attorney Randy McClean said Lester may have gone too far with that last assertion.

"That one statement is one that Mr. O'Mara could hang his hat on," McClean said.

In his ruling Wednesday, the judge made no comment about the allegations of unfairness. He merely wrote that the motion was legally "insufficient."
George Zimmerman judge: George Zimmerman judge: No, I won't step aside - Orlando Sentinel

----------


## ENT

That guy GZ just can't stop himself. No he want's more priviledges, feeling paranoid and broke.

SEMINOLE COUNTY, Fla. — The attorney for George Zimmerman, who is  accused of killing 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, plans to file a motion to ask a judge to allow Zimmerman to be able to travel anywhere in the United States for his own safety.
 When Zimmerman bonded out of jail earlier this month, a Seminole County judge added some tough restrictions to his $1 million bond.

Zimmerman currently has to stay in Seminole County, be monitored around the clock with a GPS bracelet, and check in every 48 hours. He’s not allowed to have a bank account, a passport, or even go to the Orlando-Sanford International Airport for any reason.
But now his attorney wants to drastically change those conditions.

When WFTV showed up at his office on Tuesday night, Zimmerman's attorney Mark O'Mara, was still finalizing the paperwork and said he could file a motion as early as Wednesday. 

O'Mara said keeping Zimmerman in the county is costing thousands of dollars a week in security. 

And with a dwindling defense fund, O'Mara said he can no longer afford it. 

"Even though the defense fund is running very low, we have increased security costs because the closer he is, the easier he is to find, the more security he has to have," said O'Mara. 

*O'Mara said he plans to file a motion asking a judge to let Zimmerman leave Seminole County. 
*
*But he's not just asking to allow Zimmerman to leave the county. He wants him to be able to go anywhere in the U.S. 
*
"Seminole County is the most dangerous county for him to be in, and there are still a lot of security concerns," said O'Mara. 

Zimmerman has been charged with second-degree murder for killing an unarmed teenager, Trayvon Martin. 

His lawyer said Zimmerman's fund right now only has about $50,000 in it. 

*And despite efforts to generate more through an interview with Fox News, the money's running out. 
*
More.
Attorney to file motion asking judge to allow George Zimmerman... | www.wftv.com

----------


## S Landreth

The reason I am posting this is because like others believe, it might be difficult to find an impartial jury for this trial. 


There are 4 pages to this article: The Trayvon Martin truth squad: a Web phenomenon - MiamiHerald.com

Everybody needs a hobby. For these folks, it’s obsessively digging through evidence and theorizing what really happened.

While other people watch reality shows, a marketing specialist in Michigan who goes by the name “Bcclist” spends time in his yard, calculating Trayvon Martin’s last steps with a tape measure and smartphone stop watch.

He is joined on the Internet by Dave Turner, an Illinois man who had his sons yell in the dark from a distance of 30 feet to see whether he could tell which one cried for help.

Both men are often guided by the work of “Tchoupi,” an engineer with a Ph.D. in physics who has spent countless hours making maps, analyzing witness statements and fleeting headlight patterns in surveillance videos to compute George Zimmerman’s moves the night he killed Trayvon.

The three are among a growing group of people on the Internet so fascinated by the mystery of the killing that captivated the nation that they are out to crack the case themselves. They listen to jailhouse calls, pore over witness statements, study evidentiary documents and measure walking speeds.

After hundreds of hours going through the records, some believe they have debunked Zimmerman’s account of what happened that rainy Feb. 26 night in a gated community in Sanford, when the former neighborhood watch volunteer says he was jumped by Trayvon and was forced to kill him during a struggle. Others say the same evidence points a finger at Trayvon, the 17-year-old Miami Gardens high school junior who they believe contributed to his own death. Zimmerman has been charged with second-degree murder.

Experts say the amateur sleuths may very well be the new-media reality for high-profile criminal cases in Florida, where extraordinary public records laws make evidence widely available before trial. In a big case such as this one, prosecutors provide information electronically, meaning anyone with Internet access can comb through the evidence. The bloggers say their intense interest in the case underscores a deep-seated distrust in both law enforcement and the mainstream media, who they blame for shoddy coverage and poor analysis of the facts.

Florida’s “trials of the century” take place so publicly that the exposure of evidence raises profound questions about whether the public’s right to know has trumped a defendant’s constitutional right to a fair trial. With such a serious risk of jury pool contamination, Zimmerman’s attorney jumped into the fray to be sure that the evidence favorable to the defense was reviewed on the blogosphere, too.

----------


## robuzo

^"The reason I am posting this is because like others believe, it might be difficult to find an impartial jury for this trial." OK. I thought maybe you were just trying to remind us what a strange world we now live in.

----------


## harrybarracuda

^ Import 12 BNP members from the UK. They hate anyone who isn't white in equal measure, and they don't give a fuck about the guns.

----------


## ENT

:smiley laughing:

----------


## robuzo

'Stand your ground' protects criminals - Tampa Bay Times
The most recent analysis of more than 100 fatal "stand your ground" cases by Tampa Bay Times staff writers Kameel Stanley and Connie Humburg found that nearly 60 percent of people claiming the self-defense legal protection had been previously arrested, and one in three were accused of a violent crime. . .
<snip>
They are people like Maurice Moorer, who landed in jail multiple times and allegedly threatened his then-wife with violence and guns before he killed his ex-wife's boyfriend in 2008. Moorer shot into his victim's car 14 times, but he wasn't prosecuted after he claimed his victim was going to the car for a gun, and a gun was later found in the car.

They also are people like Manatee County drug dealer Tavarious China Smith, who walked away from two homicides more than two years apart under "stand your ground."
---
I'm off to look up the killer adjective "tavarious." An article about Tavarious:
Drug dealer used 'stand your ground' to avoid charges in two killings - Tampa Bay Times
"Although Smith was shot at initially, he did take possession of a firearm and 'chase' Breon (Mitchell) so that he could shoot him," the police report said. "Chasing a subject in order to shoot and kill them goes beyond defending one's self."

But less than a month later, the State Attorney's Office dropped the murder charges against Smith. The prosecutor said the state was unable to disprove that Smith had acted in self-defense.

"There's no question that Smith was shot at first, that his ride had taken off so his most likely means of escape was gone and that the pistol Breon was firing at him has 10 rounds," Brown said of the gunfight, which took less than a minute. "A reasonable person could see that danger was still present when he (Smith) was firing back."
---
So, dueling must also be more or less legal in Flawda, amirite?

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## harrybarracuda

^ This is old news. I saw interviews very early on with gang bangers who said they loved it.

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## robuzo

Yes, there were such stories. Those are what's referred to as "anecdotal," Harry. Now a newspaper has conducted an analysis of reports of the law being used. More studies will likely follow.

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## ENT

I'll bet the Twin Lakes community are now cursing the day GZ set foot in the place. Trayvon Martin's mother is suing for compensation after the community took out insurance for crimes committed there.
*
Trayvon Martin family's HOA insurance claim lands in federal court*
9:25 p.m. EST, August 6, 2012

Recent court filings show Trayvon Martin's mother, Sybrina Fulton, has filed a claim for monetary damages against an insurance company for the Retreat at Twin Lakes homeowners association in her 17-year-old son's death.

The insurance claim was revealed in paperwork filed last week by Travelers Casualty and Surety Company of America. In those documents, the insurer seeks clarification of its responsibilities in the teen's death and asks a federal judge to absolve Travelers of liability.

The teen, who was staying at Retreat at Twin Lakes with his father's girlfriend, was shot by neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman Feb. 26 while returning from a local 7-Eleven store, authorities say.

About a month after the shooting, the federal filings show, Travelers issued an insurance policy to the homeowners association. "After the inception of the claims-made policy, Fulton made a claim for monetary damages ..." Travelers says "... as a result of the fatal shooting of Martin."

Travelers writes in its filing that the company "is in doubt of its rights" under the policy and "seeks a declaration of its rights and obligations with respect to the claim" made by Fulton.

The insurer has asked the court to rule that Travelers "has no duty to defend The Retreat at Twin Lakes" against Fulton's claim. The amount of Fulton's claim is not explicitly stated in the court filings, but the insurance company writes that the "amount in controversy exceeds the sum of $75,000."

Benjamin Crump, an attorney for the teen's family, said that the Martins are investigating possible claims with "all the insurance companies that might be applicable" and was seeking to determine "whatever the insurance limits were."

"It's our job, as lawyers, to make sure that we protect our client's interest," Crump said.

Meanwhile, records released by the Florida Attorney General's office show Fulton also filed a claim with the state's Bureau of Victim Compensation for emergency crime-victim assistance. The records show Fulton's claim was approved March 29.

Crump said the Martin family has not completed all the paperwork needed to get the funds, but if they do, they plan to donate the money to the foundation they created in their son's name to prevent gun violence.
Trayvon Martin insurance claim - Orlando Sentinel

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## ENT

Just a snip to get a further look into GZ's bizarre behaviour. The guy's on a hell of a  mix of chemicals, no wonder he acts crazy.

•Zimmerman was worried early on that the jail staff was not providing him access to anxiety medication. He listed his medication: *Zithromax,* an antibiotic; *Celexa*, an anti-depressant; *Tylenol*, a pain-killer and fever reducer;* Bentyl,* which treats irritable bowel syndrome;* Remeron,* another anti-depressant; and *Adderall*, which treats attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.

Plus *Ibuprofen* .

Scrambled eggs anybody?

----------


## S Landreth

Self-defense ruling sought in Trayvon Martin case

A man charged with the murder of unarmed black teen Trayvon Martin will seek a judges ruling on his claim to have acted in self defense under Floridas Stand Your Ground law, his lawyer said Thursday.

Mark OMara said that if, after a hearing, the judge decides neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman had acted within the controversial state law, the case against his client would be dismissed.

Now that the state has released the majority of their discovery, the defense asserts that there is clear support for a strong claim of self-defense, OMara said in a statement posted on his website.

snip

OMara likened the hearing to a mini-trial, with most of the arguments, witnesses, experts and evidence that a defense would present at trial being set before the judge.

Unlike a trial, however, the burden would be on the defendant to show he acted within the law.

If the court rules in favor of the defendant in a Stand Your Ground hearing, not only are criminal charges dismissed, the defendant is also immune from civil actions related to the shooting, OMara said.

It was unclear when such a hearing might be held. The next pre-trial hearing is not scheduled until October 3.

________________________

stooopid: Records show George Zimmerman got D's in criminal justice classes - MiamiHerald.com

He got Ds in Introduction to Criminal Justice and Juvenile Delinquency, and a C in a course called Evil Minds -Violent Predators. He failed algebra and astronomy and had been placed on academic probation in 2011.

At one point, his grade-point average dropped to a .5. His As in English, criminal litigation and a Marriage and Family class boosted his overall G.P.A. to 2.3.

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## ENT

Yes well, only to be expected from a wannabe.

Getting As in English, Marriage and Family and Litigation papers doesn't surprise me as he'd had plenty of practical "education" in those fields due to the restraining orders issued after altercations with his former partner.

His best buddy the ex-cop fired from the Sanford PD hosted a party at the club house at Twin Lakes for graduates fom GZ's law school.

GZ asked to attend as a graduate, even though he hadn't made the grade, being a course shy of completing the course.

The guy's a conman, a sort of Walter Mitty ambitiously inventing himself as some sort of guardian of public morals and behaviour. Basically, a control freak.

----------


## S Landreth

Zimmerman defense appeals judge's refusal to step down - MiamiHerald.com

Defense attorney Mark OMara asked the Fifth District Court of Appeal to review the trial judges refusal to remove himself from the case, after the defense requested it citing what it considers bias against their client.

George Zimmermans defense attorney asked a higher court Monday to reconsider the judges refusal to step down from the case.

Mark OMara filed a motion last month asking Seminole County Circuit Judge Kenneth R. Lester to recuse himself. Citing the judges scathing order setting bond at $1 million  in which the judge accused Zimmerman of getting read to skip town with a cache of donations  the defense said it has lost faith in the judges objectivity.

Judge Lester flatly rejected the request to step down, saying it had no legal merit.

Now OMara wants the Fifth District Court of Appeal to reconsider Lesters ruling. He filed a 27-page motion at the Daytona Beach courthouse Monday afternoon.

The issue is critical for the defense. Under Floridas controversial Stand Your Ground law, a judge decides on whether a defendant should be granted immunity based on a claim of self defense. Many legal experts believe that Zimmerman is on weak footing with Lester, who offered Zimmerman special perks at the start of the case, and then accused him of disrespecting the criminal justice system.

Lester was clearly angered when lawyers revealed that Zimmerman and his wife misled the court about how much money they had raised online. Believing the couple was broke, Lester at first granted Zimmerman a $150,000 bond. He later found out that Zimmerman was sitting on a pot of money and had gone to great lengths to keep it secret.

Lester revoked the bond, put Zimmerman back in jail for several weeks and then released him on a $1 million bond that nearly wiped out his defense fund.

The judges ruling was so strongly worded that Zimmermans defense lawyers believe Lester demonstrated bias toward their client.

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## S Landreth

Appeal court removes judge in Zimmerman case -  MiamiHerald.com

George Zimmermans attorneys got a second judge kicked off his murder trial Wednesday, when the Fifth District Court of Appeal ordered the sitting jurist to step down from the controversial case.

In a 2-1 ruling that the appellate court acknowledged was a close call, Seminole County Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester was ordered to recuse himself and ask the chief circuit judge to name a replacement.

The decision came after Zimmermans attorney, Mark OMara, accused Lester of being so biased against his client that the former neighborhood watch volunteer had lost faith in the court.

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## S Landreth

Zimmerman trial date set for June

George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watchman charged with the murder of teenager Trayvon Martin, will go on trial on 10 June, a judge ruled on Wednesday.

The trial date was set by judge Debra Nelson in a Florida court, but the court noted that there are still several unresolved matters to complete. As such the start of the trial may be pushed back further.

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## S Landreth

more news: Judge rules Zimmerman lawyers can access Trayvon Martin's school records - U.S. News

A judge ruled on Friday that attorneys for George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch leader charged with second-degree murder in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, can have access to the dead teen's school records and social media accounts.

Circuit Judge Debra Nelson, who is the new presiding judge in this highly publicized and emotional case, said that Zimmerman's attorneys can subpoena Trayvon Martin's schools for his discipline records but must keep anything they obtain private.

"I think that you're entitled to those records," Nelson said during the hearing at the Seminole County Courthouse in Sanford, Fla.

The judge also granted Zimmerman's request to subpoena Trayvon's social media records, which were removed from the Internet after his death, as well as those of a girl who says she was on the phone with him before the shooting.

Before the proceedings started, Martin's family held a news conference that took a preemptive strike against the subpoena of those records.

"We think its a terrible precedent to set," said attorney Ben Crump, who held a press conference with Trayvon Martins parents, Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton. "Why is it relevant about his school records or his Facebook page? George Zimmerman knew none of that on Feb. 26 when he claimed Trayvon's life."

The shooting took place when Zimmerman encountered Martin, 17, who was unarmed and walking through the Sanford neighborhood where his father lives.
Zimmerman, 29, has pleaded not guilty and is set to face trial June 10, 2013. He remains out on bail and is in seclusion.

Zimmerman appeared in court wearing a suit and tie, and he sat quietly while his attorney Mark OMara made his case for access to the records.

OMara said the defense was the Twitter and Facebook accounts "in their entirety" of Martin as well as a witness  a girl who was on the phone with him when he encountered Zimmerman. The girl was not named because she is a juvenile.

OMara conceded that it "sounds horrible" to evaluate the reputation of the shooting victim, but he said that the records were crucial to showing that his client did not act with "ill will or hatred" of Martin.

"The issue in this case is who did what during those couple of minutes that we dont know what happened," O'Mara said. 

Zimmerman maintains that Martin attacked him and beat him.

OMara told the judge that although the Facebook and Twitter accounts had been removed from the Internet, he has been able to access  though not authenticate  enough of the social media accounts to demonstrate that "that information could be very, very relevant to my defense."

Benjamin Crump, attorney for Trayvon Martin's parents, speaks to reporters prior to a hearing on whether the court will allow the teen's school records to be included in a trial of his shooter George Zimmerman. Crump is flanked by Trayvon's father Tracy Martin, left, and his mother Sybrina Fulton.

Crump, the attorney for Martin's family, said that if the court calls for the release of Martin's school records and social media postings, the family would demand the release of Zimmermans medical records, which he argued were far more relevant to finding out what happened on the night of Martin's killing.

"If this was your child who was shot and killed, wouldn't you want to know  if there were drugs that influenced (the shooters) judgment or decision making?" he said.
On Friday, Judge Nelson did grant a prosecution request for Zimmerman's medical records, though she said she will review the medical records first to decide whether anything should be withheld.

This was the first hearing in the highly publicized case to come before Nelson, who replaced the previous judge, Kenneth Lester, in August after a judicial panel found that Lester had begun to form opinions about Zimmerman that could affect his impartiality.

Martin's family also announced the establishment of a Change for Trayvon committee that will press for a change in Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law, which could be used in Zimmermans defense. That law allows use of force in self-defense when there is a reasonable belief of an unlawful threat.

Martin's parents said they want the wording of the law to state that someone cannot instigate a fight and then claim self-defense.

----------


## ENT

Bring out Georgy boy's medical and criminal background too, as well as all of his social media accounts, fair's fair.

----------


## jamescollister

> Bring out Georgy boy's medical and criminal background too, as well as all of his social media accounts, fair's fair.


Not the way the system works, juries can not hear prior convictions of defendants. If they did they would convict on character, not evidence. 
Doubt GZ would have much of a criminal history, think a felony conviction would prohibit you getting a carry permit for a gun. 
As for the other stuff, yes if it is relevant, but I doubt again he posted of hunting black to kill. 
The law has to prove him guilty of the crime, not that he played on line games or watched porn. Jim

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## Mr Lick

The defense team for George Zimmerman on Monday posted a high-resolution color photo of the Florida neighborhood watch leader taken by police the night 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was fatally shot.

Zimmerman's lawyers posted the following statement about the photo:
"This is a photo of George Zimmerman taken by a police officer on the night of February 26, 2012. A black and white photocopy of this image was provided by the State in the first Discovery. This high-resolution digital file was finally provided to the defense on October 29, 2012. This image was disclosed in the State's 9th Supplemental Discovery. In accordance with the updates to our media policy that we published on November 13, we will be making all public documents related to the case available on our website, including the rest of the State's 9th Supplemental Discovery as soon as we are sure it has been properly redacted according the the Court's stipulations on protecting information regarding specific witnesses."A spokesperson for the office of Special Prosecutor Angela Corey did not immediately respond to an email request for comment Monday.

Benjamin Crump, an attorney for the Martin family, told NBC News the photo is not new evidence –- just a color version of a photograph that has already been seen.

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## piwanoi

Of Course its new evidence HTF can you see blood when the photo is in black and white ,?, new photo, new evidence !

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## S Landreth

George Zimmerman told a judge on Tuesday that he freely and voluntarily waived his right to seek immunity from prosecution for the murder of Trayvon Martin under Floridas controversial stand-your-ground law.

The decision marked a point of no return for the former neighbourhood watch leader, who must now face a trial in June for the second-degree murder of the teenager he shot during a confrontation at a Florida housing estate in February 2012.

Zimmerman waives stand your ground defense in pre-trial hearing

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## S Landreth

Self-defense  No
Stand your ground  No
Murder  yes
Percent of a chance to seat a jury in this part of Florida where one isnt a racist FOX news watching holdout  0%

The trial is scheduled to start here tomorrow (Monday) and with what I have read and heard from the 9-1-1 tapes it doesnt look good for Zimmerman.

_The state called two witnesses today who said it was Martin pleading.

Alan Reich, who said he spent hundreds of hours listening to the audio, said he could hear two voices. He said Martin could be heard yelling "Im begging you" and "stop." He says Zimmerman could also be heard, but he was not pleading for help.

Reich said he used voice samples from both Zimmerman and Martin to help him with his findings._

George Zimmerman Not Screaming for Help, Two Experts Testify Today - ABC News

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## socal

> Self-defense  No
> Stand your ground  No
> Murder  yes
> Percent of a chance to seat a jury in this part of Florida where one isnt a racist FOX news watching holdout  0%
> 
> The trial is scheduled to start here tomorrow (Monday) and with what I have read and heard from the 9-1-1 tapes it doesnt look good for Zimmerman.
> 
> _The state called two witnesses today who said it was Martin pleading.
> 
> ...


Its a bullshit murder charge. 

Everyone knows it.

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## Thormaturge

^
Except for Trayvon Martin who is in no condition to form an opinion.

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## jamescollister

> Self-defense  No
> Stand your ground  No
> Murder  yes
> Percent of a chance to seat a jury in this part of Florida where one isnt a racist FOX news watching holdout  0%
> 
> The trial is scheduled to start here tomorrow (Monday) and with what I have read and heard from the 9-1-1 tapes it doesnt look good for Zimmerman.
> 
> _The state called two witnesses today who said it was Martin pleading.
> 
> ...


Read the article, think the tapes will be thrown out, or of little use to the prosecution.
A Reich says in his opinion, it's Martins voice, but he has not used computer voice analogizing software, just his ears. FBI say, impossible to tell and another expert witness used computer voice recognition soft ware and says  probability is high that it's Zimmerman's voice.

If you were on the jury who would you believe. Some guy's ears, the FBI or a load of computer graphs.  
Put that down as a win for the defense. Jim

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## harrybarracuda

Sad state of affairs when some wannabe cop can shoot someone dead and walk away. America, I suppose.

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## jamescollister

> Sad state of affairs when some wannabe cop can shoot someone dead and walk away. America, I suppose.


That's the system, you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt guilt. Same in many countries, imperfect as it may be, no one has come up with a better system. Jim

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## socal

> ^
> Except for Trayvon Martin who is in no condition to form an opinion.


I know its trendy for the socialist lowlife to side with the thug but that doesn't change the facts of the case.

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## socal

> Sad state of affairs when some wannabe cop can shoot someone dead and walk away. America, I suppose.


So you would just let a hooded thug beat you to death or at least punch your teeth out and break your nose while you have a gun in your pocket ? That is sad

But I suppose that is the way of Europe. As we can see with that British citizen decapitated in the street :mid:

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## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> Sad state of affairs when some wannabe cop can shoot someone dead and walk away. America, I suppose.
> 
> 
> So you would just let a hooded thug beat you to death or at least punch your teeth out and break your nose while you have a gun in your pocket ? That is sad
> 
> But I suppose that is the way of Europe. As we can see with that British citizen decapitated in the street


I can only say thank goodness there are no racist, judgmental pricks on the jury.

----------


## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by socal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> ...


Take race out of it, a white guy was the attacker and another white guy put a bullet in him.  Would the same story have come out. Jim

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## RickThai

Just as all the objective, legal evidence supported OJ Simpson's guilt, all the objective, legal evidence supports the innocence of the defendant, but just as OJ walked on his murder charges, so will the defendant be found guilty of something.  The "black horde" will have its blood thirst satisfied to some degree or another, which unfortunately will drive another wedge into racial harmony within the USA.

RickThai

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by socal
> ...


Yes, it still would have been a story of an armed, testosterone-fueled, curtain twitching police wannabe poking his nose in where it wasn't warranted and killing an innocent man because he bit off more than he could chew.

Shame the other guy wasn't armed and killed him first.

You do know who started the events leading to this murder, don't you?

----------


## harrybarracuda

Ironic how racist profiling led to this unarmed mans shooting death, yet the elitist white pricks criticise it as being turned into an incident of racism.

Give me fucking strength, there's no arguing with the circular logic of the KKK is there?

Personally I think this jumped up little twat is seeking justice in the white man's system because he knows it's better than the biblical justice he faces on the street.

----------


## friscofrankie

> I can only say thank goodness there are no racist, judgmental pricks on the jury.


Given that you have only hyped media coverage to base your opinion on, and have (seemingly) already convicted the shooter, how is it you think you can lay claim to be any less of a "racist,  judgmental prick?"

I think the man may have a legitimate defense.  It may be bullshit.  But there is a trial going on, evidence will be presented.  We will see.  




> racist profiling led to this unarmed mans shooting death


Again, how do you know that?  Have you formed an opinion simply based on your own (leftist?) political beliefs?  We can see you would definitely be allowed on the jury with your pre-conceived perception of the man's guilt.  

Are3 we ignoring the fact that the dead dude was wearing a "hoody?"  Very difficult to tell race under a hood from a short distance in daylight, let alone dusk to dark conditions.    Some nice shots of the upstanding kid in a white hoody full face-on with flash or near-perfect lighting have been circulated.  Just because the kid was black a huge media push to canonize the dead boy was  implemented.  these people could care less for justice.  It's just another opportunity where we can make it look like a poor black man (boy) has been victimized regardless of the facts.

Perhaps if you lived in a small community with 50,000 residents and your crime statistic read four murders, 23 rapes,  159 robberies, 945 burglaries 146 assaults, 2,143 car thefts; a city where your crime index level is 166% of the national average; you might want to ask some one what they are doing wandering around your neighborhood.  Just maybe you might want to join a neighborhood watch group.

Remember; it was raining, it was after 7:00 PM in the winter (dark).  The bulk of the BS in this thread seems to be convicting the guy based soley on the race of the victim.  If that is not Judgmental or Racist, I do not know what the fuck is.

Regarding the accused wanting "White Man's Justice," you're probably right.  Some trumped up little shit with black skin and a gun in his hand most probably will try and find "biblical justice" because the man killed another black man, no matter what the facts of the case will reveal.

----------


## robuzo

^"it was raining, it was after 7:00 PM in the winter (dark)." The weather is irrelevant. He didn't need to follow Martin, period. Zimmerman called the cops when he saw someone he thought looked suspicious. Fair enough. The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following Martin. When Zimmerman answered, "yeah," the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman followed him anyway. If he had listened to the police dispatcher Martin would still be alive. Period. Instead Zimmerman decided to play cowboy and has been paying the price ever since, although not as heavy a price as 17-year-old child and his parents. The significance of this case is, if Zimmerman is acquitted it is basically a green light to all the other mutts who, as Raymond Chandler put it, "think a gat in the hand means a world by the tail." Self-defense is one thing, looking for trouble is another.

----------


## jamescollister

Yep if found guilty, that will be justice. If not guilty it will be a racist jury, the fact are irrelevant. 
Fact, whether Zimmer followed Martin or not, that does not give Martin a right to attack someone. For all Martin knew Zimmer was looking for his dog. 

The whole thing reeks of politics and pressure groups, not justice.  There are lesser charges, that may have held water, but murder 2, they must be joking.

Even the loony lefties on here can not believe that Zimmerman went out that night, not to go to the shop, but to shoot someone. If that were the case he could have shoot Martin from the warm dry seat of the car. Jim

----------


## robuzo

You don't know what happened exactly between Zimmerman and Martin. It is known that Zimmerman followed Martin, to the extent that Martin was aware he was being followed (stalked), after Zimmerman was asked explicitly by a police representative not to follow. Whether "Zimmerman went out that night. . .to shoot someone" is also something we can't know. What is known is that Zimmerman did not need to follow Martin and had been asked not to. Otherwise- "Yep if found guilty, that will be justice. If not guilty it will be a racist jury"/"There are lesser charges, that may have held water"- you are mixing up your arguments, and as usual seem a bit confused.

There are plenty other cases in which Florida's ill-conceived and poorly-written "stand your ground" law have allowed people- including criminals- to go free after killing someone in situations that were completely avoidable. The Zimmerman case may appear to many to be a litmus test for racism, and while it may function that way in a certain sense, race really isn't the core issue.

----------


## jamescollister

> You don't know what happened exactly between Zimmerman and Martin. It is known that Zimmerman followed Martin, to the extent that Martin was aware he was being followed (stalked), after Zimmerman was asked explicitly by a police representative not to follow. Whether "Zimmerman went out that night. . .to shoot someone" is also something we can't know. What is known is that Zimmerman did not need to follow Martin and had been asked not to. Otherwise- "Yep if found guilty, that will be justice. If not guilty it will be a racist jury"/"There are lesser charges, that may have held water"- you are mixing up your arguments, and as usual seem a bit confused.
> 
> There are plenty other cases in which Florida's ill-conceived and poorly-written "stand your ground" law have allowed people- including criminals- to go free after killing someone in situations that were completely avoidable. The Zimmerman case may appear to many to be a litmus test for racism, and while it may function that way in a certain sense, race really isn't the core issue.


Murder 2, premeditated murder, would think that phoning the police before the shooting shows a lack of premeditation. Jim

----------


## Lancelot

Some guys going ape shit on here because one black guy dies. But nobody wants to talk about the thousands of black men murdered by other blacks. Now lets all get back to condeming all whites as racists thugs and ignore what really goes on- blacks killing other blacks  :Smile:  

_Overwhelmingly, the victims are black men like Mr. Gibbs, who was shot in the back of the head in his car in Louisiana. Or Rahiem Bailey, 29, who was killed during an apparent robbery in Norfolk, Va. He died the evening of Feb. 26, an hour before Mr. Martin, the Florida teenager, was killed by George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watchman. Lecarlos Todd, a 19-year-old college student, was shot to death earlier that same day in Jackson, Tenn., one of numerous people hurt during a melee at a local night spot. Jackson police said he was an innocent bystander._ 

_In each of these cases, the victims were African Americans younger than 30, and the people charged also were young black men._

Grim Cycle: Black Men Killing Black Men - WSJ.com

----------


## robuzo

Here's some brothers standing their ground, blackity-black-n*clack-on-black for you (with photos at the link): Stand your ground law, Trayvon Martin and a shocking legacy: Defendant Jeffrey Brown, Defendant Jamal Taylor, Defendant Andrae Tyler and victim Michael Jackson | Tampa Bay Times
Location details: On the street in front of an apartment complex in the early morning hours in Tallahassee, Leon County, on Feb. 17, 2008
What happened: A street shootout in Tallahassee between two groups of men left a suspected gang member, 15-year-old Michael Jackson, dead. Prosecutors charged the man who brought Jackson to the shootout, 20-year-old Jamal Taylor, with manslaughter. Also charged with manslaughter were two members of the rival group, Jeffrey Brown, 23, and Andrae Tyler, 23. The person who shot Jackson was not identified. Both groups said the other side fired first in the gun battle which was in retaliation for an earlier argument and shooting. Police said more than 30 shots were fired during the Holton Street incident.
The outcome: The two members of the rival group, Brown and Tyler, filed a "stand your ground" immunity motion which was allowed by the judge. The judge cited independent witnesses and forensic evidence which supported their claim that Jackson and his allies fired on them first. (The same judge had denied an immunity filing for Brown and Tyler related to the shootout between the same groups that occurred earlier in the evening, citing lack of independent support for that claim of self-defense.) The 20-year-old who brought the victim to the gunfight, Jamal Taylor, pleaded no contest to the manslaughter charge and was sentenced to three years in state prison.

----------


## jamescollister

> Here's some brothers standing their ground, blackity-black-n*clack-on-black for you (with photos at the link): Stand your ground law, Trayvon Martin and a shocking legacy: Defendant Jeffrey Brown, Defendant Jamal Taylor, Defendant Andrae Tyler and victim Michael Jackson | Tampa Bay Times
> Location details: On the street in front of an apartment complex in the early morning hours in Tallahassee, Leon County, on Feb. 17, 2008
> What happened: A street shootout in Tallahassee between two groups of men left a suspected gang member, 15-year-old Michael Jackson, dead. Prosecutors charged the man who brought Jackson to the shootout, 20-year-old Jamal Taylor, with manslaughter. Also charged with manslaughter were two members of the rival group, Jeffrey Brown, 23, and Andrae Tyler, 23. The person who shot Jackson was not identified. Both groups said the other side fired first in the gun battle which was in retaliation for an earlier argument and shooting. Police said more than 30 shots were fired during the Holton Street incident.
> The outcome: The two members of the rival group, Brown and Tyler, filed a "stand your ground" immunity motion which was allowed by the judge. The judge cited independent witnesses and forensic evidence which supported their claim that Jackson and his allies fired on them first. (The same judge had denied an immunity filing for Brown and Tyler related to the shootout between the same groups that occurred earlier in the evening, citing lack of independent support for that claim of self-defense.) The 20-year-old who brought the victim to the gunfight, Jamal Taylor, pleaded no contest to the manslaughter charge and was sentenced to three years in state prison.


What does that post mean, that a bunch of black guys with guns went out on a revenge attack, none charged with premeditated murder.
Yet you are saying that Georgie boy on his way to a store, should be chaged with murder 2, not manslaughter.
Where's the intent that your above post has. They went there to settle a score, they could not prove intend to murder and were  charged manslaughter. Jim

----------


## mao say dung

> Now lets all get back to condeming all whites as racists thugs


You could do that if it tickles your fancy; I couldn't possibly.

There's only one racist thug in the case at hand. Try concentrating on that.

----------


## Rainfall

Zimmerman isn't white but hispanic, is he? I don't know if he shares the opinion of this Mexican gentleman,



which the American right wing certainly can't embrace. Seems you have a bigger problem at hand than a Latino killing a negroe.  :bananaman:

----------


## RickThai

There is an interesting book just out "Mugged" by Ann Coulter.  It gives some interesting perspectives on the politics of race in the USA.

Worth a read, if you are truly interested in learning something.

RickThai

----------


## Lancelot

> Originally Posted by Lancelot
> 
> Now lets all get back to condeming all whites as racists thugs
> 
> 
> You could do that if it tickles your fancy; I couldn't possibly.
> 
> There's only one racist thug in the case at hand. Try concentrating on that.


I can do that if you will concentrate on the thousands of blacks- that are murdered by other blacks.

----------


## Boon Mee

> There is an interesting book just out "Mugged" by Ann Coulter.  It gives some interesting perspectives on the politics of race in the USA.
> 
> Worth a read, if you are truly interested in learning something.
> 
> RickThai


Well, it's too bad Ann Coulter is an anathema to these Libs.  Maybe they'd learn something if the blinkers were taken off - Kool-Aid put aside... ::chitown::

----------


## harrybarracuda

Jury selection is underway, and reasonable opinion piece from this CNN reporter:




> (CNN) -- On February 26, 2012, George Zimmerman, a Hispanic Neighborhood Watch volunteer at the Retreat at Twin Lakes housing complex in Sanford, Florida, shot and killed Trayvon Martin, an unarmed African-American 17-year-old.
> Initially, Zimmerman was not arrested, and no charges were brought against him. Rallies, protests and a media firestorm followed, even eliciting a comment from President Obama that "If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon."
> The Rev. Al Sharpton came to Sanford and admonished residents that they were "risking going down as the Birmingham and Selma of the 21st century" if nothing was done.
> 
> Benjamin Crump, one of the attorneys representing Martin's parents and an instrumental advocate for bringing charges against Zimmerman after they were initially declined, maintains that the case is about civil rights.
> Whether the killing turns out to have been racially motivated, responded to in self-defense, the act of a resident concerned about the safety of his neighborhood or the act of a trigger-happy cop wannabe, race is an inescapable issue.
> 
> Sanford is the county seat of Seminole County, Florida. Although it experienced explosive growth during the economic boom and has several large, modern upscale subdivisions, it remains relatively poor.
> With approximately 54,000 residents, it has a per capita income of only about $21,000, with about 18.5% of the city below the poverty line, according to the 2010 census. It is approximately 30% African-American and 20% Hispanic. It has a documented history of racial tensions between its police and its black residents.
> ...


Opinion: Zimmerman jury selection all about race - CNN.com

----------


## jamescollister

> Jury selection is underway, and reasonable opinion piece from this CNN reporter:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				(CNN) -- On February 26, 2012, George Zimmerman, a Hispanic Neighborhood Watch volunteer at the Retreat at Twin Lakes housing complex in Sanford, Florida, shot and killed Trayvon Martin, an unarmed African-American 17-year-old.
> Initially, Zimmerman was not arrested, and no charges were brought against him. Rallies, protests and a media firestorm followed, even eliciting a comment from President Obama that "If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon."
> ...


Strange enough he may do better with some parts of the black community who have been victims of crime and the police response was slow. 
All black people don't draw a line on color as all white people don't. Some just see right and wrong. Jim

----------


## RickThai

> Originally Posted by RickThai
> 
> 
> There is an interesting book just out "Mugged" by Ann Coulter.  It gives some interesting perspectives on the politics of race in the USA.
> 
> Worth a read, if you are truly interested in learning something.
> 
> RickThai
> 
> ...


You certainly make a point.  

In "Mugged" she presents case after case, of how, over the last 25 years, "liberal" mainstream media distorts facts in order to "stir up" the Hispanic and Negro races. 

In the Zimmerman case, the media deliberately published old pictures of Martin in order to portray him as a younger, smaller, and less threatening person.  

It is a shame how the emotions of Negro and Hispanic people are so easily manipulated by the liberal media in order to stir up racism.

RickThai

----------


## S Landreth

SANFORD -- Lawyers in the George Zimmerman trial interviewed four more potential jurors Wednesday, dismissing one young man after he suggested he couldnt be fair toward the defendant.

Murder is murder, even in self-defense. Still doesnt make it right, the man told a prosecutor, saying Zimmermans story was one-sided. Dead men tell no tales.

The young bearded man, a young man in his 20s, was dismissed without questioning from defense attorneys. As jury selection entered its third day, he was the first potential juror brought into court and dismissed without questioning from both sides.

snip (some history)

The man dismissed Wednesday joins 71 other potential jurors dismissed during the first three days of jury selection in the high-profile case. He is only one of two potential jurors who were dismissed after being questioned individually in court by the lawyers.

From hundreds of citizens summoned to the Seminole County courthouse, lawyers are seeking an initial pool of 30 jurors who have not been unduly swayed by the unprecedented publicity surrounding the case.

Once the lawyers agree on the 30, theyll be questioned as a group. From that pool, lawyers will try to select six jurors, plus four alternates.

So far, lawyers overall have questioned 18 potential jurors to learn whether press coverage, social media and debates with family and friends have swayed them and made them unable to serve fairly.

Among the potential jurors questioned Wednesday: an older white woman who said she did not own a gun and found the concept of an unarmed person getting fatally shot a tough concept, a young black woman who gets most of her news from Facebook and a younger white woman who said she knew about Zimmermans unique website aimed at raising money for his legal defense.

All three agreed the media pushed the racial angle of the case.

SANFORD: Potential juror dismissed as lawyers move forward in Trayvon Martin shooting case - Trayvon Martin - MiamiHerald.com

----------


## Boon Mee

The circus continues:

Left-Leaning Would-Be Juror Who Wants "JUSTICE!" for Trayvon  Attempts to Get on to Zimmerman Jury, Claiming to be Apolitical and a  Fox News Watcher             *And Zimmerman's lawyers caught him.*

Imagine that... ::chitown:: 

Zim's going down anyway just like OJ got off...

----------


## robuzo

Pulled this from an archived Harper's article, not available without subscription: Fear of a black jury | Harper&#039;s Magazine 
---
From "How to Pick a Jury,” a training tape made by Jack McMahon, a former Philadelphia assistant district attorney:

Another factor in selecting blacks is, you don't want the real educated ones, This goes across the board, all races, If you're gonna take blacks, you want older blacks. Older black men are very good. A well-dressed seventy-twoyear-old black man is a great juror. I've seen DAs who'll strike him, because it's like, "Ooooohh, he's black, I've gotta get rid of him," but these people, in my experience, are very good jurors. They're from a different era, and they have a different respect for the law, The other thing is, blacks from the South are excellent. I don't think you'll ever lose with blacks from South Carolina. They're dynamite. They just have a different way of living down there, a different philosophy. They're law and order, and they're on the cop's side.
Black women are very bad. There's an antagonism. I guess maybe because they're downtrodden in two respects-they're women and they're blacks-and they want to take it out on somebody, and you don't want it to be you. Some people say, "Well, the best jury is an all-white jury." I don't buy that, Because you can have a reverse reaction there. Particularly with a black defendant; most of the time your witnesses are going to be black. You don't want your all-white jury to say to themselves, "Aaah, who gives a shit?" You know what I mean? A jury of eight whites and four blacks is a great jury, or nine and three. Because then a white guy is not going to say, "How do people live like this?" in front of the three black people in the room.

----------


## Lancelot

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by RickThai
> ...


Yes the first photos I saw of Mr. Martin he looked like a grade school student, not even a remote resemblence to his appearance at the time of his death. As I recall the Black Panthers were offering a reward for Mr. Zimmerman's extrajudical murder.

INHO Mr. Zimmerman was probably an overzealous volunteer watchman, a cop wanna be AND Mr. Martin was perhaps some one with a short fuse and decided to take thr initial verbal discussion to a higher level.

But it doesn't matter what I think, we have courts of law to hear the evidence and a jusry will decide guit or innocence.

----------


## RickThai

> Originally Posted by RickThai
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> ...


Unfortunately when it comes to emotionally-charged "black" vs. "white" trials , evidence has very little to due with the outcome.  Think "Rodney King", "OJ Simpson", and the list goes on.


RickThai

----------


## Pound Hound

my take...

dude chased down a black kid. the kid kicked his ass. instead of taking his beating like a man he pulls out a gun and shoots an unarmed person.

he is a pussy and last I checked if a man is unarmed its not ok to shoot him. If he had a knife then yes... I thought self defense had to be matched equal or greater force (that's what the NRA teaches) fists to gunplay is a big stretch

Unarmed man shot dead = murder
even if you are being pummeled with fists

he could of pulled his gun and told the kid to back the fuck up (again NRA guidelines say "announce you are armed") but he pulled the trigger first

He is a pussy....

he also was told not to follow the kid by the police department. He approached the kid anyway, which makes him the aggressor.

he is going to prison

on to the next American side show......

----------


## friscofrankie

If your head is being pounded into the pavement, that is "deadly force."  
A gun is also a "deadly force."  

Replying to  deadly force with deadly force is self defense.  

You don't know what happened.   Your assumption that some poor innocent black kid got chased and gunned down is based on what, exactly?  That Trayvon was black?

----------


## S Landreth

> Your assumption that some poor innocent black kid got chased and gunned down is based on what, exactly?


911 call

----------


## Pound Hound

"Your assumption that some poor innocent black kid got chased and gunned down is based on what, exactly? That Trayvon was black?"

as opposed to what? *YOUR* assumptions that the pussy boy was just defending himself?

First... what crime did the kid commit to assume he was guilty or innocent of anything? walking down the street? what crime did he commit to even be bothered by that dude? can you tell me? If you say "nothing" then you are talking out of your ass! he was then indeed was chassed and gunned down by some fucking jackass!

secondly...  this black/white crap... WGAF? a black dude got shot by a spic! I don't see the angle. I don't give a shit if he was black/white/yellow or green man.... The dude was a pussy who was getting his ass kicked after hassling some person the police told him to leave alone! He pulled a gun on an unarmed man. If you can place a knife or any weapon on the kid then this debate is moot.

and no.... getting your ass kicked is not deadly force. If he were able to get up (yes he was standing up at the time the shot was fired) and then get his gun out and shoot him in the chest he was no longer on the ground getting his head "pounded into the pavement", hence he was no longer in danger of being killed. am I right? So at the time he shot him he was no longer in danger of the pavement being a "deadly weapon". He could of fled if he were that afraid of losing his life. He could of told the kid to get on the fucking ground until the cops showed up. He shot the kid cause he got his ass kicked.... he is a PUSSY who could not take the ass kicking he deserved!

"head pounded into the pavement"
those pictures look like fucking scratches from the pavement! if his head was being "pounded" into the pavement he would of needed some serious medical attention and more than likely suffered serious brain damage! you ever seen anybody hit the pavement hard? it does not leave scratches brah.... it fucking smashes shit flat! It looks to me as if his head was on the pavement and this kid was punching him in the face/head. That would leave scratches as seen on pussy boys head.



this melon above would look a lot different if you and pussy boys account were true!

the "pavement" is not considered a "deadly weapon"! If he was carrying a chunk of concrete in his hand to be used a weapon then yes, but the ground under your feet is not a weapon.

If he would of listened to the police or if he took his ass whooping like a man and just let the kid walk away while he laid on there ground and cried like a pussy none of this would of happened.

and... what makes this guy so full of shit is the recording of himself and 911 operator. If that did not exist this would not even be an issue and he would be a free man right now! He was looking for trouble and he found it. Treyvon Martin not so much... walking to the corner 7/11 to get some skittles...

The guy will get his day in court.... 
that's all there is to it.

----------


## socal

> my take...
> 
> dude chased down a black kid. the kid kicked his ass. instead of taking his beating like a man he pulls out a gun and shoots an unarmed person.
> 
> he is a pussy and last I checked if a man is unarmed its not ok to shoot him. If he had a knife then yes... I thought self defense had to be matched equal or greater force (that's what the NRA teaches) fists to gunplay is a big stretch
> 
> Unarmed man shot dead = murder
> even if you are being pummeled with fists
> 
> ...


That's the dumbest take yet. Congrats

Cops blow people away with their guns who are beating them up all the time.

People die and get bad head injuries from fights all the time

You have a legal right to defend yourself with a gun. Nigger head should have realized that if he continues his beating, he could very well get shot. But Nigger head was too stupid to realize that so he paid for it..

----------


## socal

1. He was suspended for spray painting lockers  at his High School   here the campus police discovered 12 pieces of stolen jewelry that they  turned over to the local PD
 2. He was suspended for excessive tardies and skipping school
 3. He was last suspended for 5 days for drug paraphernalia, which  landed him at this dads for the week while he served out said suspension

----------


## Pound Hound

socal... what *YOU* just posted is the dumbest thing ever posted on any board at any time in the history of the internet! Congrats to you Brahdah!

"Cops blow people away with their guns who are beating them up all the time"

I think you watch to many movies..
its messy business when a police officer even fires a bullet let alone hitting someone with said bullet. Police are trained to keep their wits about them. They are subject to the penalty of law the same as everyone else, if not more! they also try to use overwhelming numbers. So they try very hard to never find themselves in a one on one situation.

"People die and get bad head injuries from fights all the time"

when did I ever say people did not die in fights? I said pussy boy has some scratches on the back of his head from being punched while on the ground. not bashed into the pavement as he says. That's whole different look than some scratches that's fractured skill.... brain trauma.... concussion.

"You have a legal right to defend yourself with a gun"

do you know anything about the American legal system? You do understand that you cannot shoot an unarmed person.... right? In most states & cases you can only use deadly force when you are 
1) absolutely in fear for your life, which has to be proved. The way most courts determine your level of fear is if you empty your whole clip into somebody. one shot in the chest is going to be hard to show what level of fear he experienced. especially after being let up from the ground.

2) meeting deadly force with the same level of deadly force. The kid was unarmed so this will not apply. the other guy above is saying the pavement was a deadly weapon. I don't think it's going to pass.

"Nigger head should have realized that if he continues his beating, he could very well get shot. But Nigger head was too stupid to realize that so he paid for it.."

maybe if I speak in your own language

Nigger had stopped the beating and let the spic up! and the spic shot the nigger after he was let up. the spic was not smart enough to just let the nigger walk away after his ass beating.

If I punch you, you are not allowed to shoot me with a gun i's called manslaughter.

----------


## Pound Hound

> 1. He was suspended for spray painting lockers at his High School  here the campus police discovered 12 pieces of stolen jewelry that they turned over to the local PD
> 2. He was suspended for excessive tardies and skipping school
> 3. He was last suspended for 5 days for drug paraphernalia, which landed him at this dads for the week while he served out said suspension


 
all that means jack shit.... this is not about if he smoked pot or was suspended for school... or like to fuck puppies every Wednesday before he pissed on the Alamo.

its going to come down to what happened on one rainy night between him and Zimmerman

----------


## jamescollister

Pound Hound, you seem to have all the facts, perhaps you can share them. 
Georgie said he fired while Martin was on top of him, you say this is untrue. Have they released the forensic and I missed.

Cops often shoot unarmed criminals, at around the same time as this an unarmed face eater was shoot dead in LA. 

Level of response is set by the aggressor, if Zimmer was on the ground getting a beating and he believe Martin was a serios threat to him and may have got the gun then that's justifiable.

Following someone or asking a question does not give  the right to attack that person.

Lets see the evidence, before they get the lynch mob out. Jim

----------


## Pound Hound

> Pound Hound, you seem to have all the facts, perhaps you can share them. 
> Georgie said he fired while Martin was on top of him, you say this is untrue. Have they released the forensic and I missed.
> 
> Cops often shoot unarmed criminals, at around the same time as this an unarmed face eater was shoot dead in LA. 
> 
> Level of response is set by the aggressor, if Zimmer was on the ground getting a beating and he believe Martin was a serios threat to him and may have got the gun then that's justifiable.
> 
> Following someone or asking a question does not give the right to attack that person.
> 
> Lets see the evidence, before they get the lynch mob out. Jim


 
ya man...  lets see the evidence, before we let the guy go free... Jim... 

#1 - I do not claim to have all the facts. I am just forming an opinion from what I have read. The same as you... My opinion just differs on justified force and I think the law is clear.

#2- did I say cops don't shoot people unarmed? I said they get in some serious trouble and get sent home for a month or 2 while its being reviewed by their own internal investigation. They know its a hard road if they do actually fire their weapon. And, we are not talking about a cop we are talking about a self appointed neighborhood watch guy. Who was not part of the organization of "neighborhood watch". They don't want you carrying guns because of this very reason.

you are using the point of a man eating someone's face and a the cops say "knock that shit off"! then shoot him when he does not comply? that's a bad analogy. HE WAS EATING SOMEBODY ALIVE!!!!!!

if you had an analogy where an unarmed man is walking in an aggressive manner at a policeman... I would say 99.9% of the time the cop will use non lethal force to subdue the person. pepper spray, tazer or a good old fashioned 16 ounce piece of fine Indiana hickory!

#3 like I said... getting your ass kicked is not a reason to shoot someone. force can only be met with equal force. This is not some wild west or dirty harry movie! If I punch you, you are not allowed to pull out a gun and shoot me. Why is that so hard for to understand? 

and those scratches on the back of his head are consistent with one's head being on the pavement and being punched and wrestling not getting your "head pounded into the pavement". HIs skull would crack like fucking egg! He did not even go to the hospital that night! So I don't buy it.

#4 he went looking for a young man and the young man kicked his ass for being a pushy little nosy fucker. If Zimmerman walked up to me and asked "what are you doing here" I would of told him to fuck off too! Zimmerman had had no authority to chase down somebody and question his actions. He was committing no crime. Not to mention the police (who do have legal authority) told him to stay in his car!

I don't think Zimmerman was looking to kill anyone, so 1st degree/premeditated murder is not applicable. I do think the charge of 2nd degree is applicable.

this is a messy thing. there are no winners here.

But the fact still remains.... you cannot kill an unarmed person or even an unarmed person who is punching you. please refer to your NRA handbook, its very clear on these subjects.

"Level of response is set by the aggressor, if Zimmer was on the ground getting a beating and he believe Martin was a serios threat to him and may have got the gun then that's justifiable."

just because he was losing a fight, does that make treyvon now the aggressor? He believed treyvon "may" have gotten "his" gun? he can only use deadly force if treyvon "HAD" the gun! Not "THOUGHT" he "MAY OF" gotten his gun. The law is clearer than you think it is. 

"He may get my gun so I have to shoot him first" again... legally.... that will not fly..... I was sitting at this bar and a guy next to me called me an asshole and made a motion towards me and I had to shoot him before he got my gun and shot me!

if any of you own hand guns please go though a NRA class they will help you understand your rights as a gun owner. Believe it or not the NRA teaches you NOT to use your gun unless it is the absolute last resort to saving your life... None of your property is worth a criminals life. As long as you are safe let the guy steal your stereo. That's the kind of stuff they teach. Put yourself in a defensive stance and announce you are armed and that the police have been called. these are things George should of known. approaching the kid was the last thing he should of done as someone who is carrying a concealed weapon.

this case is more open and shut than many of you think.

----------


## Pound Hound

> Following someone or asking a question does not give the right to attack that person.


georgie was fucking stalking him! kid ran and he followed him. I think the kid has every right to "stand his ground". I could say something sensational like "the dude hunted him down like an animal" but I won't go that far!  :Smile:  I can actually picture zimermann bending over to look at the shoe tracks in the wet grass... touching the grass and smelling his fingers..... like a mighty hunter tracking his prey.

"Leave me alone you crazy fucker or I am going to kick your ass" - that's the phrase I hear in my head if it were me.

If George had not made a series of bad decisions The kid would be alive today and George would still be living the simple life. I think he should be held to a higher standard because he had a conceal & carry permit. He was reckless with the rights afforded him and broke every recommendation of the NRA & all state/federal law enforcement agencies.

again... these are all just opinions. Yours, mine & the other.

The man will have his day in court and justice will be served one way or the other.

----------


## leemo

> ...The man will have his day in court and justice will be served one way or the other.


Nothing to do with justice, all to do with presentation, and the riots will begin a few minutes after he is acquitted though the dispensers of 'justice' might agree an attempt to lower their intensity by having him convicted on some minor charge.

Either way his life in the US is over.

----------


## jamescollister

PH do you just make stuff up as you go along.
1st degree murder is a capital crime in Florida.

*Second degree murder* 

 The statute also punishes as second degree murder the killing of  another human being during the commission of a felony that is imminently  dangerous to human life. Also, if the defendant was involved in the  commission of a predicate felony, but the homicide was perpetrated by  another co-felon, the defendant can be charged with second degree  murder.[


So was Georgie boy felony walking on the cracks in the pavement.

Your use of force understanding, has nothing to do with the real world. Most places in the world say things like reasonable force to obtain the objective. 
Now if Zim is on the ground taking a beating and fears for his life. His objective is to stay alive, what other force option did he have.

We don't know what the evidence is yet, but proving the 2nd degree felony murder is a long shot to me.  Jim

----------


## Mr Lick

It's not only loss of life that be be considered sufficient cause to use a deadly weapon in response, sustaining a serious injury would also be seen as justification.

If someone was thumping my skull against the pavement and i had no defence other than a firearm to hand then i simply wouldn't be hanging around to show that person that i meant business. 
Unfortunately, in a close quarter conflict, shoving the weapon in someones face as a warning (with no intention of pulling the trigger) won't always achieve the desired result of the assailant backing off. You could now find your firearm in the hands of the attacker with his desire to use his fists against you having now lost some of it's importance.

Zimmerman certainly made a few errors of judgement on the evening but did he deserve to be physically attacked and suffer serious injury as a consequence of those actions?

Btw, you meet force with superior force. e.g. if someone has a hammer, you don't look around for a hammer, you draw your gun. If someone has a knife, don't get a knife, draw your gun.  :Smile:

----------


## piwanoi

In todays politically correct world the very fact that the deceased is Black means only one thing to the left on these boards ,the Whitey/Hispanic guy is Guilty ,and anything other than a guilty verdict of even a lesser charge will lead to the Rev Al Sharpton and Co screaming from the roof tops of Racism and the usual wholesale burning down and destruction of Public property which of course the TD left wing brigade  will most likely agree with as "justice" has not been served :rofl:

----------


## jamescollister

> In todays politically correct world the very fact that the deceased is Black means only one thing to the left on these boards ,the Whitey/Hispanic guy is Guilty ,and anything other than a guilty verdict of even a lesser charge will lead to the Rev Al Sharpton and Co screaming from the roof tops of Racism and the usual wholesale burning down and destruction of Public property which of course the TD left wing brigade  will most likely agree with as "justice" has not been served


Personally the whole thing is just a show trail, the prosecution may have evidence, not shown to the public yet, but they have to disclose it to the defense before trail.
Murder 2 means that Zimmerman was in the commission of a felony before the killing. Is it a felony crime in Florida to ask someone what they are doing or get out of a car and look at what someone is doing. 

The Judge seems to have reserved judgement on the admissibility of some evidence. 

As of yet I have not heard or read anything that even warrants charges of felony murder. Even if an all black jury convicted, the case would be thrown out on appeal.

There was not enough evidence at the beginning to even pull Zimmerman's carry permit. Think he will sue for malicious prosecution and walk away a very rich man. Jim

----------


## Pragmatic

I'll wait for the movie to come out. Tom Hanks to be Zimmerman is my bet.

----------


## jamescollister

> I'll wait for the movie to come out. Tom Hanks to be Zimmerman is my bet.


Boring movie I would think. A nobody gets in his car to go to the store, sees something suspect. Gets out of his car to have a look, gets attacked and puts a round in the attacker. 
Short movie. Jim

----------


## Pound Hound

> PH do you just make stuff up as you go along.
> 1st degree murder is a capital crime in Florida.
> 
> *Second degree murder* 
> 
> The statute also punishes as second degree murder the killing of another human being during the commission of a felony that is imminently dangerous to human life. Also, if the defendant was involved in the commission of a predicate felony, but the homicide was perpetrated by another co-felon, the defendant can be charged with second degree murder.[
> 
> 
> So was Georgie boy felony walking on the cracks in the pavement.
> ...


I don't know brah... you seem to be making shit up too!

and what about my use of force understanding? are you saying its legal to shoot an unarmed person? because he punched you? if you believe that is true then you watch too many movies....

and..... I don't know where you got your definition of 2nd degree murder from...

Florida state law
section 782.04
_The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life imprisonment_

----------


## Pound Hound

> Btw, you meet force with superior force. e.g. if someone has a hammer, you don't look around for a hammer, you draw your gun. If someone has a knife, don't get a knife, draw your gun.


you have the right idea man.... but going from being punched to pulling a gun is a big stretch! If the kid pulled a hammer.... even a stick.... the justifications are there.

and you mentioned close quarter fighting. Any fool knows you don't try to go for your gun when someone is in your guard! He is lucky he did not shoot himself as well!

and its the law... no matter how much you guys dislike it or don't understand it. Fist to guns is a huge jump in force.

and again.. I hold this guy more responsible because he has a conceal carry permit (as did I in Florida- no CC here if Hawaii) and was an NRA member (as am I still). He knew better than to even be in this position. He was overzealous and it caused him to make some bad decisions.

----------


## ENT

Right on.

----------


## jamescollister

*The 2012 Florida Statutes
*


* Title XLVI*
CRIMES * Chapter 782* 
HOMICIDE *View Entire Chapter* 782.04 Murder.—(1)(a) The unlawful killing of a human being:1. When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being;
2. When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:a. Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
b. Arson,
c. Sexual battery,
d. Robbery,
e. Burglary,
f. Kidnapping,
g. Escape,
h. Aggravated child abuse,
i. Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
j. Aircraft piracy,
k. Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
l. Carjacking,
m. Home-invasion robbery,
n. Aggravated stalking,
o. Murder of another human being,
p. Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person,
q. Aggravated fleeing or eluding with serious bodily injury or death,
r. Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism; or

3. Which resulted from the unlawful distribution of any substance controlled under s. 893.03(1), cocaine as described in s. 893.03(2)(a)4.,  opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or  preparation of opium, or methadone by a person 18 years of age or older,  when such drug is proven to be the proximate cause of the death of the  user,

There is always a bit more to it than you can't shoot people.

I come from a alleged civilized country, Australia and in my last job you could shoot people running away, prison service. 

If you read the old posts you will find Zimmerman's statement of events, as of yet the prosecution has not disproved any of the time line.
In that statement Martin had to have doubled back and waited in the shadows for Zimmer to return toward his car, at which time Martin attacked him. 


As said not seen anything that disproves that yet. Jim

----------


## Pragmatic

> Originally Posted by Pragmatic
> 
> 
> I'll wait for the movie to come out. Tom Hanks to be Zimmerman is my bet.
> 
> 
> Boring movie I would think. A nobody gets in his car to go to the store, sees something suspect. Gets out of his car to have a look, gets attacked and puts a round in the attacker. 
> Short movie. Jim


You forgot the flashbacks to his youth which show the reasons why he reacted so violently. Drugs, sex, child abuse it's all there.

----------


## RickThai

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
>  
> Following someone or asking a question does not give the right to attack that person.
> 
> 
> 
> georgie was fucking stalking him! kid ran and he followed him. I think the kid has every right to "stand his ground". I could say something sensational like "the dude hunted him down like an animal" but I won't go that far! :.
> ...


The kid ran in what direction?  Based on how quickly Zimmerman was attacked, it appears that the kid started running at Zimmerman not away from him.  Why would you run from someone and then turn around and attack them?  Doesn't make sense unless you were cornered.

It seems more logical that Martin wanted to break in and steal something, and he got pissed because Zimmerman was keeping tabs on him.  

Still believe what you want.  

However, Zimmerman will not be getting a fair trial.  The very fact that he was only charged after months of protests by the "black horde" proves that he is being tried only because of political attempts to pacify the Negroes.

With anyone else, the original decision based upon the evidence and testimony that it was "self-defense" would have been just and the end of the situation.

This is just another example of "racism" at its worst!

RickThai

----------


## S Landreth

Hopefully none of these prospective jurors have a hidden agenda.

George Zimmerman trial jury pool - OrlandoSentinel.com

Prosecutors and defense attorneys have settled on 40 prospective jurors to move on to the second round of questioning in the George Zimmerman second-degree murder trial, Circuit Judge Debra Nelson announced today. The prospective panel is made up of 16 men and 24 women. They were chosen after being questioned extensively about what they knew about the shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin last year in Sanford.

The descriptions below, including the age and race or ethnicity of potential jurors, are based on the observations of a reporter in the courtroom.

B-12: A middle-aged white woman who works the graveyard shift. She likes the crime-forensics show CSI and said she'd heard Zimmerman was following Trayvon.

B-29: A Hispanic nurse on an Alzheimer's ward who has seven children and lived in Chicago at time of shooting.

B-76: A white middle-aged woman who said Zimmerman had an "altercation with the young man. There was a struggle and the gun went off."

B-7: A middle-aged white man who listens to NPR. He remembered when Florida implemented its "stand your ground" law and the debate about whether it was needed.

B-35: A middle-aged black man who owns a vending business. He was critical of the Rev. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, and says this case is not racial.

B-37: A middle-aged white woman who works for a chiropractor and has many pets. She described protests in Sanford as "rioting."

B-51: A retired white woman from Oviedo who has a dog and 20-year-old cat. She knew a good deal about the case, but said "I'm not rigid in my thinking."

B-86: A middle-aged white woman who works at a middle school. She said if Trayvon had not been "expelled" from school in Dade County  he was actually suspended  "this could have been prevented."

E-6: A young white woman and mother who used to work in financial services. She used this case as an example to her adolescent children, warning them to not go out at night.

E-40: A white woman in her 60s who lived in Iowa at the time of the shooting. She heard national news reports and recalls the shooting was in a gated community and a teenager was killed.

E-54: A middle-aged white man with a teenage stepson who wears hoodies. He recalled seeing photos of Zimmerman's head and face that show injuries.

E-73: A middle-aged white woman active in Sanford's arts community, who is raising her late brother's 15- and 18-year-old children. The media interjected race in this case, she said.

M-75: A young African-American woman who says many of her friends have opinions on the case, but she doesn't.

B-61: A young white woman who remembered that "after the protesters, it seemed to turn more into a racial issue...I don't think it's a racial issue."

B-72: A young man who does maintenance at a school and competes in arm wrestling tournaments. He said he avoids the news because he does not want to be "brainwashed."

E-22: A middle-aged African-American woman who said that after the shooting Sanford police should have booked Zimmerman and asked him more questions.

E-13: A young white woman who goes to college and works two jobs. She heard the shooting was a "racial thing."

E-28: A middle-aged white woman who works as a nurse. She knew little about the case and has no opinion about Zimmerman's guilt.

K-80: A middle-aged white woman with children who has not followed the case. She considers the "racial undertones" in the case "disturbing."

K-95: A middle-aged woman who's a full-time student and "IT geek" with two children. She was critical of protests calling for Zimmerman's arrest.

P-67: A native of Mexico who seemed eager to serve on the jury, describing it as a civic duty. "Some people think it is a racist thing," he said of the shooting.

G-14: A middle-aged white woman. "I remember a lot of anger, a lot of people upset that Mr. Zimmerman was not arrested immediately."

G-29: A young black woman who has lived in Seminole County eight months. "There is a lot of racial tension built up," she said, but she "stayed away from it."

G-47: A young white man who works as assistant manager at restaurant. Zimmerman appears to be "stuck in the worst situation" possible, he said.

G-63: A young, unemployed man who described himself as "mixed race." He knew few details about the case but denounced stereotyping and said people sometimes interject race into cases.

G-66: A retired white woman who cares for her toddler grandson and moved to Central Florida in 2011. When she saw photos of Zimmerman's injuries, "I felt sorry for him."

G-81: A tall black man who lives less than a half mile from the scene of the shooting. There is a racial divide in Sanford, he said, but the media has misportrayed the city.

H-6: A young white man who heard the phone call Zimmerman made to police before the shooting. "He sounded like he was concerned for his neighborhood."

H-7: A red-haired man about age 50 in a business suit who recalled "a big brouhaha in Sanford," and said, "I still don't know why it became a high profile case."

H-18: A handsome, muscled, dark-skinned man in his 20s with an accent who's a mechanic and moved here from Kuwait. He said he avoids discussing certain topics. "When it's politics, religion or race, I just don't get involved."

H-29: A white-haired man who described national civil rights leaders who led protests in Sanford "a little circus come to town." It was "negative for the city," he said.

H-35: A young woman who said she knows little about the case. She "liked" a photo of Trayvon on Facebook. Needs to move by the end of June, which she said would be a hardship.

H-81: A middle aged man who described the shooting as an "incident" between Zimmerman and Trayvon. He called the shooting a "very tragic situation." He has two pending civil cases before Nelson.

H-69: A five-months-pregnant woman who said she saw news about the case on television at work. She mentioned several times that she recalled seeing pictures of Trayvon as "a young child" in the media.

H-86: A young white woman, who said she knows almost nothing about the case. She keeps up with current events, but "certain cases and things I don't follow."

I-5: A middle-aged African American man, he said he heard self-defense was involved with the case, at one point referring to Zimmerman as "the gentleman that was defending himself."

I-19: A young white woman who hasn't followed the case and knows only the basic details: "I don't watch the news, I don't read the news," she said.

I-24: An older white woman who said she followed the case at first, but then "I just kinda tuned out." Describe the case as "a young man lost his life and another man is fighting for his life."

I-33: An older white man, who said "the more I heard, the less I wanted to hear." Heard there was a 911 call involved in the case, and "some controversy as to who was doing the screaming."

I-44: A father of three who appeared to be in his 30s and said he's highly skeptical of the media and its "negativity." He called himself a "sports nut."

----------


## Pound Hound

> Originally Posted by Pound Hound
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by jamescollister
> ...


first... in the 911 recordings Zimmerman SAYS he ran away and the person tells him not to follow him... so the idea that he was running at georgie is hard to agree with

second... georgie never says he was committing any crime... just that he's staring at me (staring at him). it seems more likely to me he just wanted to walk and talk to his girlfriend on the phone (which he was doing when he was approached by georgie. HIs girlfriend was on the phone at the time) and eat his skittles that he just bought at the 7-11.

and again I personally don't give a shit what color these people are... hell georgie's fucking Mexican! but you are right people want to make this a racial thing on BOTH SIDES OF THE FENCE!

and because it took them months to charge georgie means little.. its florida for Christ sake (if you have never lived there you will not understand)... small town police like that don't really give 2 shits about a dead black person. That is not meant to be a racist statement... its just how it is...




> Doesn't make sense unless you were cornered


you said a mouthful there rick! so who was "standing there ground"? the kid or georgie with his concealed weapon?

----------


## Pound Hound

from his girlfriends interview with authorities


GIRLFRIEND: Real hard. And then he told me this guy was getting close! He told me the guy was getting real close to him. And the next I hear is, ‘Why are you following me for?’
PROSECUTOR: OK. Let me make sure I understand this so, Trayvon tells you the guy is getting closer to him and then you hear Trayvon saying something.
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.
PROSECUTOR: And what do you hear Trayvon saying?
GIRLFRIEND: ‘Why are you following me for?’
PROSECUTOR: ‘Why are you following me for?’
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.
PROSECUTOR: And then what happened?
GIRLFRIEND: I heard this man, like an old man say, ‘What are you doing around here?’
PROSECUTOR: OK, so you definitely could tell another voice that was not Trayvon and you heard this other voice say what?
GIRLFRIEND: ‘What are you doing around here?’
PROSECUTOR: ‘What are you doing around here?’ OK.

----------


## jamescollister

> from his girlfriends interview with authorities
> 
> 
> GIRLFRIEND: Real hard. And then he told me this guy was getting close! He told me the guy was getting real close to him. And the next I hear is, Why are you following me for?
> PROSECUTOR: OK. Let me make sure I understand this so, Trayvon tells you the guy is getting closer to him and then you hear Trayvon saying something.
> GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.
> PROSECUTOR: And what do you hear Trayvon saying?
> GIRLFRIEND: Why are you following me for?
> PROSECUTOR: Why are you following me for?
> ...


The girlfriend appears to be the prosecutions star witness and that alleged conversation is the only apparent evidenve they have, not much to convict on.

The prosecution didn't even have enough evidence to take to a Grand Jury. There are I think 7 other 911 tapes from neighbors and a possible eye witness, these are defense witnesses, not prosecution witnesses.

As it stands, unless the forensic evidence tells a different story, the only evidence the State has is the girlfriends statement, which is not a lot and may not even be allowed as it appears it was take with Martins family present  Jim

----------


## S Landreth

Mostly white, all-female jury selected for Zimmerman trial

A jury of six women was selected on Thursday to decide if George Zimmerman is guilty of murdering Trayvon Martin.

According to Fox News, none of the women chosen were African-American. Five of the women were white and one was Hispanic. The Hispanic juror was a churchgoer in her 30s. All of the white jurors were reportedly in their 50s, 60s and 70s.

Two men and two women were selected as alternates. All of the alternate jurors were white.

_______________________________

* B29: A lighter-skinned black woman, possibly Hispanic, who lived in Chicago at the time of Trayvons death. The woman, who works at a nursing home, told lawyers that she didnt watch much news and worried about her eight children.

* B76: A middle-aged white woman, married mother of two grown children, who remembered wondering why Trayvon was out late at night. Prosecutors sought, to no avail, to strike her from the panel.

* B37: A white mother of two who volunteers rescuing animals and made a point to note that she used newspapers only to line the bottom of her parrots cage. She remembered rioting in Sanford during the uproar over Trayvons death.

* B51: An older white woman who didnt keep up with the case in the news because she has been handling the estate of a deceased uncle. She recalled thinking the case was very sad. When asked by lawyers during questioning how she handled disputes, she offered: You have to listen to both sides and sometimes you have to make tough calls.

*E6: A church-going, unemployed, white woman in her 40s with two kids. She likes babysitting, gardening and volunteers at her childrens school. For a short stint, she worked in financial services.

* E40: A white woman in her 60s from Iowa who recently moved to Seminole County. She has a 28-year-old son, enjoys sports and served on a jury about 20 years ago.

The jurors will be sequestered for up to four weeks until the conclusion of the trial.

SANFORD: Jury of six women chosen in George Zimmerman trial - Trayvon Martin - MiamiHerald.com

________________________________

The jurors will be back in court Monday morning for opening statements.

B-29: A Hispanic nurse on an Alzheimer's ward who has several children and lived in Chicago at the time of shooting. Shes married. She said she doesn't watch the news, preferring reality television: Right when we got here, I got cable... I love my reality shows. During jury selection, she said she was arrested once in Chicago.

B-76: A white, middle-aged woman who said Zimmerman had an altercation with the young man. There was a struggle and the gun went off. Has been married 30 years, and is unemployed. She formerly worked with her husband in his construction company. Her 28-year-old son is an attorney in Seminole County. She also has a daughter, 26, has been a victim of non-violent crime and rescues a lot of pets. The state tried to strike her, but was denied.

B-37: A middle-aged white woman who has worked for a chiropractor for 16 years and has many pets. She described protests in Sanford as rioting. Her husband is an attorney. She has two daughters: A 24-year-old dog groomer and a 27-year-old who attends the University of Central Florida. She used to have concealed weapons permit, but let it lapse. Her husband also has one.

B-51: A retired white woman from Oviedo who has a dog and 20-year-old cat. She knew a good deal about the case, but said I'm not rigid in my thinking. She has been in Seminole County for nine years, is unmarried and has no kids. She previously lived in Atlanta, and used to work in real estate. She also ran a call center in Brevard County which she said had 1,200 employees.

E-6: A young white woman and mother who used to work in financial services. She used this case as an example to her two adolescent children, warning them to not go out at night. She has lived in Seminole County for eight years, and is married to an engineer. She was arrested in Brevard County, but said she was treated completely fairly. Her husband has guns. The state tried to strike her from the jury, but was denied.

E-40: A white woman in her 60s who lived in Iowa at the time of the shooting. She heard national news reports and recalls the shooting was in a gated community and a teenager was killed. She described herself as a safety officer, is married to a chemical engineer and loves football. She has a 28-year-old son whos out of work. She said shes very well versed in cell phone technology, and has been a victim of crime.

These are the alternates:

E-54: A middle-aged white man with a teenage stepson who wears hoodies. He recalled seeing photos of Zimmerman's head and face that show injuries. He loves golf and genealogy, and said hes been married for five years to a technical engineer. He grew up in Seminole County and has a teenage stepson.

B-72: A young, possibly Hispanic man who does maintenance at a school and competes in arm wrestling tournaments. He said he avoids the news because he does not want to be brainwashed. He grew up in Chicago, is single and an alumni of Phi Beta Kappa. He is very physically active, having participated in high school football, track and weightlifting. Of arm-wrestling he said, I could talk about it all day.

E-13: A young white woman who goes to college and works two jobs, one of them as a surgical assistant. She heard the shooting was a racial thing. She said she could be a fair juror just because I don't really know that much. She is single, has lived in Seminole County for 17 years and attends church. She also owns and rides horses.

E-28: A middle-aged white woman who has worked as a nurse for 26 years. She knew little about the case and has no opinion about Zimmerman's guilt. She has lived in Seminole County since 1985, and has been married for 28 years; her husband is a teacher. She has two adult children: 27 and 23.

George Zimmerman trial: Jury seated for Trayvon Martin shooting - OrlandoSentinel.com

----------


## Pound Hound

> Originally Posted by Pound Hound
> 
> 
> from his girlfriends interview with authorities
> 
> 
> GIRLFRIEND: Real hard. And then he told me this guy was getting close! He told me the guy was getting real close to him. And the next I hear is, Why are you following me for?
> PROSECUTOR: OK. Let me make sure I understand this so, Trayvon tells you the guy is getting closer to him and then you hear Trayvon saying something.
> GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.
> ...


well we shall see... her account differs quite a bit from georgie's... 

I will not lose one minute sleep over this whole thing.

and who cares who was in the room when she was interviewed? also there are other witnesses from the condos that are not on the defense witness list!

the fact is it is a live man story vs. a dead man story... only one gets to tell his account of events.

----------


## RickThai

> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by RickThai
> 
> 
> ...


The alternative is that Zimmerman attacked the kid, the kid kicked his butt and then Zimmerman shot him.  That doesn't make much sense, because if you are armed and you try to fight someone, they could easily get your gun and shoot you.

That's one reason why cops are trained to shoot so quickly.

If I had a gun, I don't think I would have let the kid beat my head against the pavement before shooting him.  I would probably have shot him as soon as he attacked me.  That seems to indicate that the kid attacked Zimmerman, who was trying to keep the thing from escalating, not the other way around.

Zimmerman is probably screwed, no matter what.

RickThai

----------


## S Landreth

When opening arguments begin in the trial of George Zimmerman, prosecutors will be able to tell the jury that Trayvon Martin was profiled and Zimmerman was a "wannabe cop," the judge in the case ruled today.

Circuit Judge Debra Nelson ruled on a defense motion this morning seeking to block those phrases from trial. The state can also say "vigilante" if they choose, and can say that Zimmerman confronted Trayvon, Nelson ruled.

However, she said prosecutors should avoid saying Trayvon was racially profiled.

Prosecutor John Guy said this morning that the state didn't plan to say the teen was profiled "solely" by race: "There are a number of ways" someone could be profiled, he said.

Defense attorney Mark O'Mara countered that profiling and racial profiling are inseparable as concepts: "It's like peanut butter and jelly."

Nelson told O'Mara that if the state's case doesn't live up to its opening statement, the defense is free to point that out in closing arguments.

"If they don't prove it, they don't prove it," the judge said.

Another major ruling in the trial was expected today: whether state expert witnesses will be allowed to testify about who was screaming in the background of a 911 call before Trayvon's shooting.

But Nelson said in court this morning that she's still working on that ruling, which might not come until Monday.

George Zimmerman trial 911 screams experts - OrlandoSentinel.com

----------


## S Landreth

In a major victory for murder suspect George Zimmerman, a judge today ruled that prosecutors may not put on the witness stand two state audio experts who say the voice heard screaming for help on a 911 call was someone other than Zimmerman.

Those screams, recorded while Zimmerman was fighting with 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, are the most dramatic piece of evidence in the high-profile murder case.

Zimmerman, a Neighborhood Watch volunteer, says they came from him, that he was calling for help after Trayvon attacked him. Trayvon's parents say they are from their son and are his last words before Zimmerman shot him in the chest.

Circuit Judge Debra S. Nelson had heard three days of testimony about the science used by the state's experts to analyze them. Today she ruled that it failed to meet Florida's legal standard.

George Zimmerman 911 screams experts ruling - OrlandoSentinel.com

_______________________________

edit, more from the herald: Jury to decide whose voice on 911 call in Zimmerman case -  MiamiHerald.com

Jurors will listen to a recording of the chilling 911 call that captured the distant, fearful cries in the vicious outdoor fight between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin.

But the jury in the closely-watched case wont hear from two prosecution audio experts who suggested that the voice screaming out in fear belongs to Trayvon, a Seminole County judge ruled Saturday in a decision some legal observers called a significant blow to the prosecution two days before the trial opens.

Testimony from the experts, Tom Owen and Alan Reich, both of whom analyzed a 911 call made by a neighbor, could have been important evidence for state prosecutors because it would have helped portray Zimmerman as the aggressor.

The neighborhood watchman is accused of second-degree murder in killing Trayvon, an unarmed teen from Miami Gardens, during a confrontation inside a gated Sanford community in February 2012. The Sanford police departments delay in charging Zimmerman, who claimed self-defense, sparked large civil rights rallies in Sanford and drew worldwide headlines.

With a jury now sworn in after two weeks of jury selection, opening statements are scheduled to begin Monday morning.

Prosecutors, in charging Zimmerman, say the 29-year-old profiled 17-year-old Trayvon, who was visiting his father in Sanford and was returning from a convenience store that night.

The ruling by Seminole Circuit Judge Debra Nelson does not bar testimony of others who may be able to identify the voices on the recording. That could include testimony from Trayvons mother, Sybrina Fulton, who initially identified her sons voice on the recording and is listed as a witness in the case.

Benjamin Crump, the Martin family attorney, downplayed Saturdays ruling, pointing out that Zimmerman himself told a police detective that the screams on the recording did not sound like him.

This ruling is not a blow to the prosecution, Crump said, calling the evidence against Zimmerman overwhelming. The jury can use their common sense in this matter along with all the other evidence. I dont think it will affect the case.

Zimmerman defense attorney Mark OMara has long said he wants jurors to decide what they hear on the 911 call for themselves.

And in another last-minute legal twist, Zimmermans defense team - in an issue to be taken up Monday - is asking the judge not to ban hearsay statements Zimmerman allegedly made to people in the minutes after the shooting.

Mr. Zimmerman spontaneously stated that he had yelled for help and that no one helped him, a defense motion said Zimmerman told a Sanford patrol officer just after the shooting.

But on the ruling issued Saturday, some legal observers called it a considerable win for the defense and a good move by the judge because the issue could have been reversed by an appeals court if Zimmerman is convicted.

Its a big score for the defense, said Miami criminal defense lawyer Terry Lenamon. Why muddy up the waters with science that is new, novel and not generally accepted, especially in a high-profile case? It was a smart move by the judge.

Former Miami-Dade prosecutor Matthew Baldwin said that while the ruling is a setback for prosecutors, dueling experts at trial often cancel themselves out in the jurys view.

----------


## Boon Mee

Welcome to Barry Soetero's post-racial America!  :bananaman: 

Ima kill me a cracka: Death threats against George Zimmerman, random white people explode during trial.

This Zimmerman Trial is turning out to be a real circus...

----------


## Cujo



----------


## piwanoi

> 


  Hey Koojo this "show" trial is quickly descending into a farce as I figured it would do , this article shows just why Articles: Another Race-based Show Trial Turns Into Farce

----------


## leemo

Looks like lock up your daughters time. Can't see that the prosecution have reasonably proved anything at all against Zimmerman, so America's peaceloving black leaders will be quietly urging their livestock to tank up on bottles and high octane.

----------


## piwanoi

> Looks like lock up your daughters time. Can't see that the prosecution have reasonably proved anything at all against Zimmerman, so America's peaceloving black leaders will be quietly urging their livestock to tank up on bottles and high octane.


 Yeah Leemo ,the obvious innocent verdict will mean only one thing , the usual race riot ,and then they have the fucking neck to say they are not prejudiced  :rofl:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Pragmatic
> ...


Was he on Prozac as well?

 :Smile:

----------


## jamescollister

Just reading the last reports from the trial, don't think George needs to be paying for the defense team. The prosecution seem to be proving him innocent on there own. 
There witnesses are all backing Zimmerman's account, only the fat girlie had a different version and her evidence was less than credible to say the least.

The trial was over before it began. Jim

----------


## sabang

> Can't see that the prosecution have reasonably proved anything at all against Zimmerman


If you are right, he'll be found innocent. I'll wait for the trial verdict rather than being lead by the nose by biased media, from whichever side.

----------


## leemo

Might as well wait, I guess, because won't be any "anti-racist" riots by racist blacks anyway until he's acquitted.

----------


## Boon Mee

> Might as well wait, I guess, because won't be any "anti-racist" riots by racist blacks anyway until he's acquitted.


The jury could do a reverse OJ on Zim's ass too just for spite.

More of the White Liberal Guilt thing...

----------


## Storekeeper

> More of the White Liberal Guilt thing...


Personally I hold the views of conservative white males who believe this in contempt ... despicable even ... 

IMHO ... Zimmerman is  a COWARD ...

----------


## Boon Mee

Check this out.

A Maryland teacher offers a Trayvon Martin Course.  Shockingly, Zimmerman is portrayed as a racist killer!

 "In the days following the Trayvon Martin incident, leftists were  quick to spin it to their advantage: it was racially motivated, it was  ALEC’s fault because that organization supposedly pushed “stand your  ground” laws, it was proof that rampant white-on-black violence still  exists. The narrative pushed by the left was that Trayvon Martin was an  innocent kid walking through a neighborhood and was targeted because of  the color of his skin. One member of Congress even said he was “hunted  down like a dog.” [...]

 It was the opportune time for activist teachers to push their own  political beliefs in the classroom under the guise of current affairs  lesson plans.
 One such lesson plan, posted on the internet by Hassan Adeeb, a teacher in Waldorf, Maryland, *compared  the killing of Martin to that of Emmett Till, a 14-year old  African-American who was killed in 1955 because he allegedly flirted  with a white girl.*

 Adeeb produced a lesson that had students considering information  from Think Progress, a leftist group, as well as commentary from Ed  Shultz, a super-liberal MSNBC opinion hack.

 “As many people have stated and what MSNBC television host and  political commentator Ed Shultz acknowledged is that ‘the Trayvon Martin  killing could be the Emmett Till moment of our time,’” Adeeb wrote.

 Was it? Who knows? Regardless of the facts, activist teachers moved  quickly to spin the narrative in their direction to score political  points.
 Adeeb told NPR in  March 2012 that his “students are extremely curious about the Trayvon  Martin case. Yesterday, many of them basically engaged in silent  solidarity by wearing hoodies.”

 That sounds more like an activist’s agenda than an educator’s agenda.


Trayvon Martin lesson plans more about race-baiting than learning - EAGnews.org powered by Education Action Group Foundation, Inc.

It’s _almost_ like teachers have an agenda to push...

----------


## Boon Mee



----------


## Storekeeper

> 


You know what the tells me BM? IMHO if you had been in Zimmerman's shoes the results would have been the same, and if I had been in Zimmerman's shoes the kid would still be alive. You see somebody to be afraid of. I see a 17 year old kid who needed an adult to act like an adult.

----------


## Pound Hound

exactly storekeeper.... exactly.....

and y'all are too quick to judge this case...

and moon bee...

that picture thing you have says "captain of neighborhood watch" & "license to carry & conceal" each of those 2 comments show he showed a complete lack of good judgment...

Zimmerman initiated contact with this kid.... he was told not to by police AND was told not to by his license to conceal & carry training AND by all protocol of any neighborhood watch program. Treyvon was "standing his ground"! I would of kicked his ass too!

I still think they will find him guilty and if not he will be found liable for the kids death in civil court.

----------


## Boon Mee

> that picture thing you have says "captain of neighborhood watch" & "license to carry & conceal" each of those 2 comments show he showed a complete lack of good judgment...


Zim was getting the shit pounded out of him and feared for his life.  If y'all haven't forgotten, Florida has the "Stand Your Ground" law so he was justified in capping that creep.

----------


## leemo

I don't think the Stand Your Ground law was intend to allow people the right to randomly attack and murder sweet smiling blacks.

----------


## Boon Mee

> I don't think the Stand Your Ground law was intend to allow people the right to randomly attack and murder sweet smiling blacks.


Indeed... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## baldrick

> the "Stand Your Ground" law


america has cutesy nicknamed laws so stupid fcuks can pretend they understand by mouthing the facile drivel

----------


## Boon Mee

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> the "Stand Your Ground" law
> 
> 
> america has cutesy nicknamed laws so stupid fcuks can pretend they understand by mouthing the facile drivel


Facile drivel is it?  :mid: 

"In the United States of America, *stand-your-ground law* states that a person may justifiably use force in self-defense when there is reasonable belief of an unlawful threat, without an obligation to retreat first. The concept sometimes exists in statutory law and sometimes through common law  precedents. One key distinction is whether the concept only applies to  defending a home or vehicle, or whether it applies to all lawfully  occupied locations...'

Looks like common sense to this poster... ::chitown::

----------


## baldrick

even your wikipedia cut and paste is rather ambiguous

but most seppos will believe the law means they can shoot some one for looking at them funny

----------


## Boon Mee

^
Rubbish

----------


## jamescollister

> exactly storekeeper.... exactly.....
> 
> and y'all are too quick to judge this case...
> 
> and moon bee...
> 
> that picture thing you have says "captain of neighborhood watch" & "license to carry & conceal" each of those 2 comments show he showed a complete lack of good judgment...
> 
> Zimmerman initiated contact with this kid.... he was told not to by police AND was told not to by his license to conceal & carry training AND by all protocol of any neighborhood watch program. Treyvon was "standing his ground"! I would of kicked his ass too!
> ...


You are not reading any of the testimony from the trail, Zimmerman did not chase Martin or follow him. Except for eye contact from the car, first contact was initiated by Martin and Zim was returning to his car after the dispatcher said we don't need you to follow.

Take out all the other crap and what do you have, white guy parks car on street, gets out and is jumped by black guy, called street robbery, mugging etc. Martin new nothing other than a creepy assed cracker looked at him from a parked car.

What all the anti Zims are saying is if your white don't look at a black, or leave your car if there are blacks about. Jim

----------


## Storekeeper

BM,

Zimmerman will be judged by a jury of his peers ... and he will be found guilty.

If Zimmerman were black and the kid had been white you would be screaming bloody murder ... 

So far you have done nothing but post links and memes ... Very little attempt at articulating your position.

Kinda remind me of your nemesis TonyBKK.

SK

----------


## Storekeeper

> If y'all haven't forgotten, Florida has the "Stand Your Ground" law so he was justified in capping that creep.


 :smiley laughing:  ... God you're a sick bastard ... And I can tell you really believe in that shit.

----------


## ltnt

Storekeeper, where's your fact book coming from?  This isn't a take a free shot at the messenger time, its actual reported experiences of the criminals at the crime scene, by both the on lookers as well as the participants.  Evidently from testimony from the investigating cops, the event is a non-event according to Florida's laws of self protection. 

I seriously doubt that any jury using the testimony so far introduced by the "prosecutor," will find Z guilty of anything other than self defense under physical attack with intent to do bodily harm or worse.

All the racial overtones are far and away not part of this case.  It is an incident in a neighborhood that has a self protection group to help insure their safety from criminal elements.  If that's racial then I suppose we need to disband the entire police force in every state.

----------


## jamescollister

This case has nothing to do with stand your ground, Zimmerman waved his right to use that defense. It's plain and simple self defense he is claiming.
The prosecution has charged him with felony murder, meaning some form of premeditation to commit a felony crime, which resulted in death. 
That's a hard one to prove, he wasn't selling drugs, breaking in to homes or committing a crime. 
BS charge for short term political gain. Jim

----------


## Storekeeper

> Storekeeper, where's your fact book coming from?  This isn't a take a free shot at the messenger time, its actual reported experiences of the criminals at the crime scene, by both the on lookers as well as the participants.  Evidently from testimony from the investigating cops, the event is a non-event according to Florida's laws of self protection. 
> 
> I seriously doubt that any jury using the testimony so far introduced by the "prosecutor," will find Z guilty of anything other than self defense under physical attack with intent to do bodily harm or worse.
> 
> All the racial overtones are far and away not part of this case.  It is an incident in a neighborhood that has a self protection group to help insure their safety from criminal elements.  If that's racial then I suppose we need to disband the entire police force in every state.


We probably have read the same reports and we could probably find more everyday. I do not doubt that I have read even close to all the articles available and don't have any more time than anybody else to completely research the event. Here is my bottom line ... This event would not have happened had Zimmerman taken the proper precautions of a neighborhood watch ... This would not have happened had Zimmerman acted like an adult.  Most of the time we tend to hold adults to higher standards but for some reason in this case some people want to crucify a young kid for making the simple mistake of taking a short cut through the wrong neighborhood. Has this kid been arrested instead of killed where would he have been sent? Fact is he would have been sent to a JUVENILE detention facility. At the very WORST ... This kid was no more than a PETTY criminal. I don't give a damn if Zimmerman was legal to carry a concealed weapon ... His weapon is what gave him the balls to get out of his vehicle in the first place ... I trust the jury will be disgusted by the defense attorney's attempt to smear the kid ... The jury is going to see the case for what it really is ... A day Zimmerman made a big mistake ...

----------


## jamescollister

said Zim was telling the truthStorekeeper, makes no difference if Zimmerman is a  fool, acted stupidly or is in fact a gun totting cracker and could have driven off. 
They could of ,may be made a case for some form of manslaughter, but they went for murder 2.
Zimmerman could have over reacted, yes, he could be a piss ass wimp afraid of the dark, makes no difference. 
If Martin attacked him there is no murder 2, I posted the Florida statute a few pages back. It gives the grounds for murder 2 and this case does not fall under it.

Even the investigating cop [prosecution witness] said Zim was telling the truth. Jim

----------


## mao say dung

^^Nice post SK... now I have almost have an opinion on the case.  :Smile:

----------


## ltnt

> This would not have happened had Zimmerman acted like an adult. Most of the time we tend to hold adults to higher standards but for some reason in


That again is your opinion, not the case at hand.  Its too late for what if's and far to early to be calling in the riot squads.  The charge of Murder was more or less forced upon the Prosecutors in this case.  

Prior to all the media hype, racially tinged outrage, threats and support from Mr. Obama and company, this was a simple case  under Florida statutes nothing more.

The "kid," as you like to call him was in a location that he had no business being in.  You have a neighborhood watch and one member see's this "kid," 6'-3" and thinks, "Whats this guy up to?"  If I see someone lurking around my neighbor hood I question their reason for being there?  Wouldn't you?  

Would you be prepared for an ass whipping or possible murder of yourself? Would you lay there docile and let the "kid," beat the life out of you?  Or would you try to defend yourself?  

I think Z was in over his head for sure.  I think he defended himself.  My plea is "Self Defense."  Has nothing to do with "race."

----------


## leemo

Had Z been the polite lib we are all supposed to admire, he could well be dead with Martin on a misdemeanour. 

Or possibly no charge at all, since he would plead self defence and the Left would queue up to promote Stand Your Ground.

----------


## Rainfall

> The "kid," as you like to call him was in a location that he had no business being in.  You have a neighborhood watch and one member see's this "kid," 6'-3" and thinks, "Whats this guy up to?"  If I see someone lurking around my neighbor hood I question their reason for being there?  Wouldn't you?


I wouldn't. I wouldn't even ask a question this stupid, because the black kid wasn't shot in a restricted government facility, or on private property, but on a public street. He had every right to walk along there. Up and down, all night long. What's wrong with you nazis? Do you believe the street is your property when you own a small plot of land along it, and you are the law there?

----------


## piwanoi

> This case has nothing to do with stand your ground, Zimmerman waved his right to use that defense. It's plain and simple self defense he is claiming.
> The prosecution has charged him with felony murder, meaning some form of premeditation to commit a felony crime, which resulted in death. 
> That's a hard one to prove, he wasn't selling drugs, breaking in to homes or committing a crime. 
> BS charge for short term political gain. Jim


 Jim, no doubt about it , Eventually Zim will walk , HTF can they make murder 2 stick ?, its a bloody joke  :rofl:

----------


## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> This case has nothing to do with stand your ground, Zimmerman waved his right to use that defense. It's plain and simple self defense he is claiming.
> The prosecution has charged him with felony murder, meaning some form of premeditation to commit a felony crime, which resulted in death. 
> That's a hard one to prove, he wasn't selling drugs, breaking in to homes or committing a crime. 
> BS charge for short term political gain. Jim
> 
> 
>  Jim, no doubt about it , Eventually Zim will walk , HTF can they make murder 2 stick ?, its a bloody joke


No one cares about Martin or Zimmerman, it;s all about getting your face on TV and in newspapers, winning votes or making money. 
Would you see all these high fliers, special prosecutors, lawyers out defending the rights of a non press crime. Plenty of miscarriages of justice out there, but no one cares unless they can make a buck out of it.
Think Dickens said the law is equal to all if they sleep under bridges and steal bread. Jim

----------


## barbaro

Do we really know what happened that day?

We know some of the facts, but not all.

Zimm seems to have acted foolishly, yes. 

But was he defending himself?  Perhaps; perhaps not.

I am not sure a guilty verdict is a shoe-in. 

We are discussing this case because the MEDIA made it into a 'race case.'

There is a case similar to this everyday in the US or almost every day.  It is usually _intraracial_ and therefore does not make the news.

----------


## Storekeeper

> Originally Posted by ltnt
> 
> 
> 
> The "kid," as you like to call him was in a location that he had no business being in.  You have a neighborhood watch and one member see's this "kid," 6'-3" and thinks, "Whats this guy up to?"  If I see someone lurking around my neighbor hood I question their reason for being there?  Wouldn't you?  
> 
> 
> I wouldn't. I wouldn't even ask a question this stupid, because the black kid wasn't shot in a restricted government facility, or on private property, but on a public street. He had every right to walk along there. Up and down, all night long. What's wrong with you nazis? Do you believe the street is your property when you own a small plot of land along it, and you are the law there?


One article I read claimed he was in the neighborhood because he was with his Dad visiting his Dad's girlfriend and was killed less than 70 yards from her house.

Another article I read claimed his high school GPA was something above 3.00 and that he had accepted a full ride scholarship to university to play football.

----------


## Boon Mee

> Had Z been the polite lib we are all supposed to admire, he could well be dead with Martin on a misdemeanour. 
> 
> Or possibly no charge at all, since he would plead self defence and the Left would queue up to promote Stand Your Ground.


Got that right.

Zim doesn't fit the low fat soy latte liberal's ideal.  He kinda goes against their agenda... :mid:

----------


## Storekeeper

> Would you be prepared for an ass whipping or possible murder of yourself? Would you lay there docile and let the "kid," beat the life out of you?  Or would you try to defend yourself?


That's part of the point I'm trying to make. I would have followed the directions of 911 and not exited my vehicle. I would not have attempted to confront or apprehend the kid. I would have stayed in contact with dispatch and reported findings to law enforcement. I'm not qualified to profile somebody based on their height, color or whereabouts.

I would not have shot the kid because I wouldn't have been armed. Had I taken the same actions as Zimmerman ... Maybe I would have ended up dead.

----------


## Boon Mee

> ... Maybe I would have ended up dead.


The preferable option for dealing with a gang-banger who is pummeling you to death is "I deserve it 'cause I'm white with all those white privilages and I'm steeped in White Guilt"?  :rofl:

----------


## piwanoi

As yet theres too many maybes in this case  ,when all the evidence comes out then it will be a bit better to form an opinion, and not until.

----------


## Pound Hound

there are no absolutes in this case... a live persons story vs. a dead mans story.... and there are no winners here... NONE...

I have said it before I believe ZIM should be held to a higher standard for his actions 
1 because he is an adult
2 he had a conceal carry permit
3 he had some training as a neighborhood watch participant

AND I personally believe treyvon was "standing his ground"! he does have the same rights as Zimmerman...

and the pussy could not take an ass whoopin'... grow up and take your lumps like man pussy boy...

I still think he is going to found guilty or should be in my belief system.. and if not he will be in a civil suit... as will the home owners association... because he was the "neighborhood watch captain"...

remember first rule of neighborhood watch.... no guns....

----------


## Storekeeper

> Do we really know what happened that day?


No, we don't ... And we probably never will.

----------


## ltnt

The media thinks they know?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Storekeeper

> The media thinks they know?


It's a stretch I know but, ... If I google "Zimmerman" it seems like I find links supporting him ... And if I google "Trayvon" I can find links supporting the kid.

Here's a Zimmerman comment I've seen a few times in the last couple of days:

"Fucking punks", Zimmerman said, "These assholes always get away". If that's on tape ... Zimmerman is lunch meat.

Probably true ... Still doesn't justify his actions.

----------


## Storekeeper

Just saw on another link that Zimmerman got a "D" in "Intro to Criminal Justice" ... Imagine that ...  :mid:

----------


## S Landreth

> "Fucking punks", Zimmerman said, "These assholes always get away". If that's on tape ... Zimmerman is lunch meat.





Chuck Todd with his 7 second delay comment at the end  :Smile: 

yeah now

----------


## Storekeeper

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> This case has nothing to do with stand your ground, Zimmerman waved his right to use that defense. It's plain and simple self defense he is claiming.
> The prosecution has charged him with felony murder, meaning some form of premeditation to commit a felony crime, which resulted in death. 
> That's a hard one to prove, he wasn't selling drugs, breaking in to homes or committing a crime. 
> BS charge for short term political gain. Jim
> 
> 
>  Jim, no doubt about it , Eventually Zim will walk , HTF can they make murder 2 stick ?, its a bloody joke


Uh oh ... See that video above Posted by Landreth? Do you hear that murder 2 train coming 'round the bend now?

----------


## leemo

> Just saw on another link that Zimmerman got a "D" in "Intro to Criminal Justice" ... Imagine that ...


Must be guilty.

----------


## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by piwanoi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by jamescollister
> ...


Can't download vid, nets too slow, but have read what was said. Where under the statute is bad language considered a felony crime.

Are you saying that a few guys sitting in a bar saying not nice things about blacks, criminals and punks should be arrested for conspiracy to commit murder.  Jim

----------


## Rainfall

It's not a crime, but I got the impression that Zimmerman was determined not to let this particular asshole get away.

----------


## jamescollister

Just for you Storekeeper, will re post the law, covering murder 2. Which one was Zim breaking at the time and don't say stalking, not even in the ball park for aggravated stalking.

*he 2012 Florida Statutes
*


* Title XLVI*
CRIMES * Chapter 782* 
HOMICIDE *View Entire Chapter* 782.04  Murder.—(1)(a) The unlawful killing of a human being:1. When  perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person  killed or any human being;
2. When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the  attempt to perpetrate, any:a. Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
b. Arson,
c. Sexual battery,
d. Robbery,
e. Burglary,
f. Kidnapping,
g. Escape,
h. Aggravated child abuse,
i. Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
j. Aircraft piracy,
k. Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
l. Carjacking,
m. Home-invasion robbery,
n. Aggravated stalking,
o. Murder of another human being,
p. Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person,
q. Aggravated fleeing or eluding with serious bodily injury or death,
r. Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism; or

3. Which resulted from the unlawful distribution of any substance controlled under s. 893.03(1), cocaine as described in s. 893.03(2)(a)4.,   opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or   preparation of opium, or methadone by a person 18 years of age or older,   when such drug is proven to be the proximate cause of the death of the   user,

----------


## harrybarracuda

> It's not a crime, but I got the impression that Zimmerman was determined not to let this particular asshole get away.


Well yes, Pinnochio wants to be a real cop.

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

I think he'll get off, and end up facing a bit of street justice down the line.

What goes around, comes around.

----------


## Storekeeper

> Originally Posted by Storekeeper
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by piwanoi
> ...


Reckless conduct ... His actions were the spark that resulted in an unnecessary death. His words display his contempt and his words display his emotional anger ... Whether the jury will believe his actions were premeditated I can't say ... 

By the way ... My understanding is there are 6 women on the jury ... Had you heard that? I think that could possibly play in favor of the prosecution ...

----------


## jamescollister

Where does it say reckless conduct above, or can they just make up laws in Florida at the trial. 
Prosecution has to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Zim was committing one of the above felony's for murder 2. Jim

----------


## Storekeeper

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know what the tells me BM? IMHO if you had been in Zimmerman's shoes the results would have been the same, and if I had been in Zimmerman's shoes the kid would still be alive. You see somebody to be afraid of. I see a 17 year old kid who needed an adult to act like an adult.


Apparently ... That kid flipping the double bird ... Isn't even the Trayvon Martin that was killed by Zimmerman ... According Snopes anyway.

If the jury determines "unlawful killing of a human being" ... Zimmerman is going to prison.

And it's my understanding that if the jury doesn't see murder 2 that Zimmerman can still go down for man slaughter ...

----------


## harrybarracuda

You have lack of credible witnesses to the actual event, and injuries to Zimmerman consistent with a fight (although minor, like he was losing a scrap with a 17 year old - what sort of policeman would he make!).

Take out the wannabe cop disregarding a police officer and I'd say the jury have no choice but to acquit. Everything else he did was not illegal.

But like I say, some gang banger will pop a cap in his arse in the future, and it won't even make a column inch on the "local news" page in the Miami Herald.

----------


## jamescollister

My understanding is the jury can only deliberate on the charge before them. Any manslaughter charge would have to be a plea bargain between the prosecution and the defense. 

As the prosecution seem to be defending George don't think that's likely. Seems the prosecution played Zimmernan's fox new interview, where he tells the events of the night. What's that all about, they allow Zim to testify by video recording, but don't have the right to question him. Jim

----------


## harrybarracuda

> My understanding is the jury can only deliberate on the charge before them. Any manslaughter charge would have to be a plea bargain between the prosecution and the defense. 
> 
> As the prosecution seem to be defending George don't think that's likely. Seems the prosecution played Zimmernan's fox new interview, where he tells the events of the night. What's that all about, they allow Zim to testify by video recording, but don't have the right to question him. Jim


He can choose not to take the witness stand, that's his legal right.

Obviously he didn't because the prosecution would trip him up all over the place.

So I suppose that lame arsed "interview" was second best.

----------


## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> My understanding is the jury can only deliberate on the charge before them. Any manslaughter charge would have to be a plea bargain between the prosecution and the defense. 
> 
> As the prosecution seem to be defending George don't think that's likely. Seems the prosecution played Zimmernan's fox new interview, where he tells the events of the night. What's that all about, they allow Zim to testify by video recording, but don't have the right to question him. Jim
> 
> 
> He can choose not to take the witness stand, that's his legal right.
> ...


He can still take the stand when it's the defenses turn, but there is no need to now, he's testified, but can't be cross examined. 
Haven't seen the interview so can't comment on what sort of picture it paints, but if it puts him in a good light, why would you want the jury to see it. Jim

----------


## alwarner

George Zimmerman complete coverage

Live stream if anyone's interested.

----------


## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by piwanoi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by jamescollister
> ...


 Sorry SK but the way I see it the "murder train"  hitting the buffers  :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by jamescollister
> ...


AFAIK Jim, if he opts to take the stand the Prosecution have the right to cross-examine ANY of his testimony.

----------


## jamescollister

HB realize if he takes the stand he can be cross examined, but if it's a good interview he has made his statement to the jury.
Nets too slow to down load, so don't know if good or bad, just seem silly to let George get a free address to the jury. Jim

----------


## harrybarracuda

> HB realize if he takes the stand he can be cross examined, but if it's a good interview he has made his statement to the jury.
> Nets too slow to down load, so don't know if good or bad, just seem silly to let George get a free address to the jury. Jim


You do know that it was the Prosecution that played the video, don't you?

----------


## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> HB realize if he takes the stand he can be cross examined, but if it's a good interview he has made his statement to the jury.
> Nets too slow to down load, so don't know if good or bad, just seem silly to let George get a free address to the jury. Jim
> 
> 
> You do know that it was the Prosecution that played the video, don't you?


That's what I posted prosecution, every thing is the prosecutions.
Defense gets go after the prosecution rests.

Have you watched the vid and is is for or against Zimmerman. Can see playing it if George comes across as a KKK member who wants to shoot baddies, but if he scrubs up well and puts on a good interview it's in his favor. Jim

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by jamescollister
> ...


I think they used it as a backdoor way of establishing that Zimmerman was a chronic curtain twitching nosey parker, something the judge had previously barred from the courtroom.

Of course, if you ask Fox News, it backfired on them.

But the only way the jury will convict him is if it looks like he was poking his nose in where it wasn't wanted and had a thing against the darker skinned members of American society.

From my viewing of the interview, they staged absolutely everything, down to the camera position, to try and make him look good, but it was obvious to me that he was lying through his teeth for large parts of it.

 :Smile:

----------


## piwanoi

I just wonder if Zimmerman is found Guilty that All the hundreds of thousands of Hispanics that live in the US who do not agree with the verdict  will start a nation wide riot ,burning down public property at the cost of hundreds of millions to the tax payer , cos sure as hell the blacks will start one if Zimmerman is found innocent  :rofl:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> I just wonder if Zimmerman is found Guilty that All the hundreds of thousands of Hispanics that live in the US who do not agree with the verdict  will start a nation wide riot ,burning down public property at the cost of hundreds of millions to the tax payer , cos sure as hell the blacks will start one if Zimmerman is found innocent


Depends where they are rioting I suppose, Detroit or East LA.

----------


## RickThai

[QUOTE=jamescollister;2499404Can see playing it if George comes across as a KKK member who wants to shoot baddies. Jim[/QUOTE]

Actually the KKK in its entire existence has suposedly killed less Negroes then what are normally killed on a good week by Negro gangbangers in many large cities in the USA.

Why decent Negro people don't do something about this, I don't know.  It's their children being shot up by these low-lifes.  Instead of attacking police who arrest and/or shoot Negro criminals they should support them, and try to figure out a way to install decent values in their neighborhoods.

RickThai

----------


## Storekeeper

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by jamescollister
> ...


I don't think he comes across on video or in pictures like KKK at all. His father has wrote a book about this already and they've been doing their damnedest to kill any accusations of racism ... But, there is one audio interview from a 1st cousin that is very clear and very articulate where the "she" in the audio basically says racial slurs were an everyday common occurrence in the family.

----------


## barbaro

[QUOTE=Storekeeper;2499160]


> And it's my understanding that if the jury doesn't see murder 2 that Zimmerman can still go down for *man* *slaughter* ...


It's often hard to predict jury decisions.

I will stick my neck out now, and say Zimmerman is convicted of *manslaughter.*

----------


## leemo

Considering how the prosecution has performed, the defence might as well rest its case instead of squandering more taxpayer money trying to acquit their client a second time.

But they'll convict him of something to try and keep the peace, even if it's littering.

----------


## piwanoi

I can't remember now, but if I'm not mistaken there was no "White riots" when OJ was found innocent of killing his white wife , maybe the blacks think its their civil rights and in no way racist to do so if a verdict is given out to one of "The Brothers" they do not agree with eh! :Smile:

----------


## jamescollister

[quote=barbaro;2499682]


> Originally Posted by Storekeeper
> 
> 
> And it's my understanding that if the jury doesn't see murder 2 that Zimmerman can still go down for *man* *slaughter* ...
> 
> 
> It's often hard to predict jury decisions.
> 
> I will stick my neck out now, and say Zimmerman is convicted of *manslaughter.*


Think you would be sticking your head out a fair way as he hasn't been charged with manslaughter or discharging a gun in a public place, being a nusiance or stealing Martins Skittles.

Jury can not make up it;s own charges and manslaughter is not on the table. How could any defense work if you don't know what charge you are defending against.

If the prosecution, through some way got the Judge to put M/S as an alternative verdict, that would be admitting they didn't have the evidence for murder 2 in the first place.
Defense would call for a miss trail, they have been defending a murder charge. Jim

----------


## Storekeeper

[QUOTE=jamescollister;2499882]


> Originally Posted by Storekeeper
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Storekeeper
> ...


Sorry dude ... I'm not a lawyer and can't explain it. But what I have read indicates the jury can come back with manslaughter even though the charge is second degree murder. And from what I've read the prosecution strategically charged him with 2nd degree murder knowing full well the jury could come back with the more lenient recommendation of manslaughter.

----------


## Storekeeper

This link has just about the simplest language I've found and it's still difficult ...

A Quick Guide to Florida Homicide for the Trayvon Martin Case

BoonMee should like this source ...  :Smile: 

"*The Trayvon Martin Case and Florida Law:*

The Florida State Attorney’s Office has charged George Zimmerman with second-degree murder. Therefore, the prosecutors must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman knowingly or recklessly killed Martin, and they can only prevail if Zimmerman does not successfully assert one of many defenses, the most likely being justifiable or excusable homicide. If, in fact, the prosecutors cannot prove second-degree murder, Florida law allows prosecutors to ask jurors to convict a defendant of a lesser degree killing such as third-degree murder or manslaughter. Either way, prosecutors will have to prove the elements of every offense beyond a reasonable doubt."

----------


## harrybarracuda

[QUOTE=jamescollister;2499882]


> Originally Posted by Storekeeper
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Storekeeper
> ...


It's there in black and white Jim.




> If, in fact, the prosecutors cannot prove second-degree murder, *Florida law allows prosecutors to ask jurors to convict a defendant of a lesser degree killing such as third-degree murder or manslaughter*.

----------


## jamescollister

SK read that too, but can't see how it can happen.
At the end of the trial the judge will instruct the jury on the law and what the prosecution must prove beyond reasonable doubt to convict on murder 2. She just reads from the standard one used in all murder 2 cases, add things if needed. [You can read it by goggling]
So how would they get M/S in, the jury will be unaware of what is needed to prove M/S and there are 3 grades of M/S in Florida .  The judge would need to instruct the jury on manslaughter, more or less the judge charging Zim off her own bat. Defense would jump up and say, how could we run a defense on a charge that we were unaware of until the end of the trial.
Jim

----------


## Necron99

^ maybe you can't see it because you're not a Florida lawyer or judge.
Either side can ask the judge to allow the jury to return a lesser verdict.
He can defend that on appeal.

----------


## leemo

> ^ maybe you can't see it because you're not a Florida lawyer or judge.
> Either side can ask the judge to allow the jury to return a lesser verdict.
> He can defend that on appeal.


I was only joking but it seems he could well be done for littering, then.

----------


## Necron99

Edit ^^ not my opinion.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/12/us...rida.html?_r=0



^ I'm pretty sure there was one where they came back with improper disposal of a human corpse.

----------


## jamescollister

Been reading up on this and it appears that the prosecution can ask for lessor charges to be considered by the jury, that's all lessor charges that fall under the statue, down to simple battery

What I can't find is when the prosecution need to bring this to the attention of the jury. If at the end of the trail or during the prosecution stage,. 
Opinion of most legal guys on the web is, if they ask for lessor charges, they are admitting they faied to prove murder 2, it's off the table in the juries eyes. 

Next they have to prove beyond reasonable doubt any or all the lessor charges, but they have been going for murder, have they covered the proofs for all of the other charges, say aggravated battery, or one of the manslaughter grades. 

Don't think it will go down well with the jury, if a the end of the trial the prosecution when summing up says. Well looks like Zim was telling the truth, but can you find him guilty of something else. 

We will see shortly as the prosecution is about finished and the defense has said it will be short, day or 2. Jim

----------


## barbaro

Here is a link to an article from the NY Times on the prosecution's decision to charge Zimmerman with 2nd degree murder. 

Note the definition of 2nd degree murder in Florida.  This may be very hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. 

If anyone wants to cut a paste a portion of the article, please go ahead. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/01/us..._ev=click&_r=0

----------


## barbaro

Here is some of the article from my post above. Link is above.  

Note the _legalities_:




> *In Zimmerman Trial, Prosecution Witnesses Bolster Self-Defense Claims*
> 
> By LIZETTE ALVAREZ
> Published: June 30, 2013
> 
> SANFORD, Fla. — As the trial of George Zimmerman enters its second week on Monday, *it appears that the prosecution is struggling to meet the burden of proving him guilty of second-degree murder, legal analysts said.*
> 
> 
> The first week of the trial featured* testimony from prosecution witnesses that in many instances bolstered Mr. Zimmerman’s argument of self-defense rather than the state’s case, the analysts said.*
> ...

----------


## Pound Hound

I am not sure what the jury will come back with. I think Murder 2 fits... but that's just my opinion. I think they will come back with manslaughter and
 pussy boy will do 2-5 years. will be out in less than 2

I am VERY sure there is enough to find him liable for wrongful death in a civil trial, which will start shortly after this one ends.

I hope Georgie has stashed all the money from the ishotaniggerdefensefund.com he has going on.

----------


## Boon Mee

Well, Zim's  attorney just called for the case to be thrown out.  It appears the prosecution hasn't met the burden of proof.

 Analysts agreed today the George Zimmerman prosecution was imploding.

----------


## Pound Hound

well stop the presses!!!! Pussy Boys attorney says we should throw out the case!!!!

Boon lets wait for the judge to deliver that headline....

----------


## Boon Mee

> well stop the presses!!!! Pussy Boys attorney says we should throw out the case!!!!
> 
> Boon lets wait for the judge to deliver that headline....


To avoid massive riots the Judge will probably impose some sort of jail sentence on Zim.

In the interest of Public Safety an all that... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## wasabi

Get the shopping list ready,for the free for all looting as the Riots start.

----------


## Boon Mee

Trayvon's Half-Brother: Like, I Know I Said I Wasn't Sure if That  Was Travyon Screaming on the 311 Call, But Like I'm Totally Sure Now  That We're At Trial.

You see, I just didn't want to _believe_ it was my brother screaming.

  "During cross-examination by the defense, Mark OMara brought  up the fact that Fulton was not always so certain that it was Trayvons  voice yelling on the 911 call. How do I explain it? Fulton wondered  aloud to OMara. I guess I didnt want to believe that it was him. So  thats why during that interview I said I wasnt sure. I guess listening  to it was clouded by shock and denial and sadness. I didnt really want  to believe that was him."

What a circus...

----------


## Pound Hound

> Get the shopping list ready,for the free for all looting as the Riots start.


man... its called Christmas shoppin'!

----------


## robuzo

> I am not sure what the jury will come back with. I think Murder 2 fits... but that's just my opinion. I think they will come back with manslaughter and
>  pussy boy will do 2-5 years. will be out in less than 2


Florida has a mandatory sentencing law for convictions involving use of a firearm, known as "10-20-life"- that could add a decade or two to his sentence; not sure if it is applicable to manslaughter (this lady got 20 years for firing a warning shot because she didn't want to be beaten by her shitheel husband again Florida woman sentenced to 20 years in controversial warning shot case - CNN.com). Also, felony manslaughter when the victim is a minor carries stiffer sentencing. If convicted I seriously doubt he'll get 2-5. A friend of mine killed someone accidentally in a streetfight in NJ and got 10 (overturned after NJ State Supremes reviewed and ruled mistrial).

I doubt Zimmerman will skate, but a conviction would obviously be appealed. A couple years in Flawda's barbaric penal system would be that much time in Hell, especially for a wimp like Zimmerman (who killed a brother? Not going to be spending much time in the yard).

----------


## Pound Hound

I am not sure how the 10-2-life thing works. I lived there for 10 years. I always thought it had to do with committing a felony with a gun. the commercial on tv was if you rob a store with a gun its 10-20-life.

this case is a little different.

florida is a fucked up place... if this story were the other way around TM would already be serving a 20 year sentence done in a plea bargain. I figure high profile... white dude... 5 years...

----------


## robuzo

> I am not sure how the 10-2-life thing works. I lived there for 10 years. I always thought it had to do with committing a felony with a gun. the commercial on tv was if you rob a store with a gun its 10-20-life.


It's applicable to everything from assault to murder. Manslaughter, which suggests killing was accidental, even if the result of negligence, might not be covered, although bizarrely if Zimmerman had been convicted of firing a warning shot and scaring the kid off he would likely be looking at more hard time.

And you are right, Flawda is a fucked-up place, which is a shame because it can also be a great place; if you lived there 10 years you likely experienced both sides of the state, and lots of in-between.

----------


## Pound Hound

I say florida has more bad than good... I am glad I do not live there anymore... Hawaii shits florida!

I would rather be called a Haole than a cracker!

but I do like calling Boon Mee a "crazy ass cracker"!

----------


## harrybarracuda

Well both mothers claimed that voice screaming for help was their son.

I'd say Martin's mother was a bit more convincing, and there was no hesitancy in her answer, unlike Zimmerman's.

But I didn't see their whole testimony, and to be honest if the jury can't decide who's right it makes that whole prosecution angle pointless.

----------


## jamescollister

Prosecution has rested it's case, anybody think they proved beyond reasonable doubt 2nd degree murder. Jim

----------


## Boon Mee

> Prosecution has rested it's case, anybody think they proved beyond reasonable doubt 2nd degree murder. Jim


There's a whole passel of gangbangers there in FL who are preparing to 'off' some creepy-ass white crackers as we speak.

----------


## barbaro

Obviously, Zimmerman will not take the stand, and how long will the defense present its case, if at all?

Oft-times, less is better by  defense.

----------


## Storekeeper

> Well both mothers claimed that voice screaming for help was their son.
> 
> I'd say Martin's mother was a bit more convincing, and there was no hesitancy in her answer, unlike Zimmerman's.
> 
> But I didn't see their whole testimony, and to be honest if the jury can't decide who's right it makes that whole prosecution angle pointless.


I've listened to it over and over and over ... Can't say for sure but if forced to guess I would say it sounded like an adult voice yelling not a kid.

----------


## jamescollister

Well SK there's your reasonable doubt. Jim

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> Well both mothers claimed that voice screaming for help was their son.
> 
> I'd say Martin's mother was a bit more convincing, and there was no hesitancy in her answer, unlike Zimmerman's.
> 
> But I didn't see their whole testimony, and to be honest if the jury can't decide who's right it makes that whole prosecution angle pointless.
> 
> ...


I take it you don't know too many 17 year olds then.

----------


## Necron99

Zimmerman is hardly a baritone..
Could bee him squealing.

----------


## jamescollister

> Zimmerman is hardly a baritone..
> Could bee him squealing.


Makes no difference who's screaming, there is a doubt, so it really doesn't count as evidence.

Prosecution tried to use the absence of evidence as evidence, no Zimmerman's DNA under Martins finger nails, none of Martins DNA on the pistol grip, not serious injuries or much blood loss from Zimmerman etc

Personally from what I have read, they didn't prove one thing contrary to Zimmerman's statement. There star witness the girl on the phone is all they had and I wouldn't believe her if she asked to borrow 2 dollars and she'll pay me back tomorrow. Jim

----------


## barbaro

> Well SK there's your reasonable doubt. Jim


Reasonable doubt will be what this is about.

And if we read the definition of 2nd degree murder n Florida posted above, I think  conviction on 2nd degree is unlikely.

----------


## Storekeeper

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> Well SK there's your reasonable doubt. Jim
> 
> 
> Reasonable doubt will be what this is about.
> 
> And if we read the definition of 2nd degree murder n Florida posted above, I think  conviction on 2nd degree is unlikely.


It's so easy to get misunderstood posting in forums so I'll try once more ...

I do not think Zimmerman intended to kill this kid ... I'm with the pound hound ... Zimmerman is a little punk ass bitch who got into something way over his head ... He wasn't big enough and he wasn't bad enough ... And unfortunately he was carrying the little men's equalizer and out of desperation and fear of getting his skull pounded in killed an unarmed teenager ... so it didn't surprise me to listen and come to the conclusion the yelling may have been coming from Zimmerman.

The dude should be going to prison for involuntary manslaughter or negligent homicide ... He was the spark behind this entire chain of events. He stalked and ultimately killed an unarmed teenager. A kid who was committing no crime ... Bottom line is Zimmerman profiled the kid 

Zimmerman is one of those dudes who likes to let their hummingbird mouth overrun their mockingbird ass ... and usually one of the pussies who likes to do it from a safe perch behind a gun ...

Also ... I don't know how the prosecution or defense presented their cases but out of all the YouTube videos out there .... If you separate the wheat from the chaff ... There is only one witness that is definitively saying Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman ... And one with two females that claim Zimmerman was doing the pounding and the Trayvon was the one screaming. All the others are pretty much ... Blah, blah, blah don't know what the hell they really saw or heard.

----------


## barbaro

[quote=Storekeeper;2501288]


> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> Well SK there's your reasonable doubt. Jim
> 
> 
> Reasonable doubt will be what this is about.
> 
> And if we read the definition of 2nd degree murder n Florida posted above, I think  conviction on 2nd degree is unlikely.





> It's so easy to get misunderstood posting in forums so I'll try once more ...


SK, my post was not referring to you in anyway.  You have stated your opinion on this - and I see it the way you do - your quote below about Zimmerman starting this whole thing.




> I do not think Zimmerman intended to kill this kid ... I'm with the pound hound ... Zimmerman is a little punk ass bitch who got into something way over his head ... He wasn't big enough and he wasn't bad enough ... And unfortunately he was carrying the little men's equalizer and out of desperation and fear of getting his skull pounded in killed an unarmed teenager ... so it didn't surprise me to listen and come to the conclusion the yelling may have been coming from Zimmerman.
> 
> The dude should be going to prison for involuntary manslaughter or negligent homicide ... He was the spark behind this entire chain of events. He stalked and ultimately killed an unarmed teenager. A kid who was committing no crime ... Bottom line is Zimmerman profiled the kid 
> 
> Zimmerman is one of those dudes who likes to let their hummingbird mouth overrun their mockingbird ass ... and usually one of the pussies who likes to do it from a safe perch behind a gun ...


I think you have hit it right on the head. 

Zimmerman is-was foolish, lacked common sense, and had no right to initiate this whole incident.  Yes, I think he did profile Martin.

I (sadly) am curious as the what the defense will do next week.

I see him getting convicted of Manslaughter, also.

----------


## leemo

I think the prosecution produced evidence in order to present what they could call evidence. They have proven nothing resembling murder, and reducing the charge (to littering) in the hope of saving face is an admission of defeat, incompetence and or abuse of authority for political expedience, which could lead to uncomfortable questions such as why the fcuk did you pursue the murder charge, then!

Hope the riots end before Xmas.

----------


## barbaro

> Hope the riots end before Xmas.


If there are riots - black riots - in this circumstantial case, the blacks will just force alienation an dislike towards them, including from me.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> Well both mothers claimed that voice screaming for help was their son.
> 
> I'd say Martin's mother was a bit more convincing, and there was no hesitancy in her answer, unlike Zimmerman's.
> 
> But I didn't see their whole testimony, and to be honest if the jury can't decide who's right it makes that whole prosecution angle pointless.
> 
> ...


It's a shame so many here have no clue about either Florida or much about this case.
Within 24 hours of being beaten, Zimmerman was with investigators at the scene bruised and battered, reliving the confrontation and specifically told the story that has been corroborated even by the supposed "star witness" who was on the phone with Martin at the time.

Doesn't it strike anyone strange that Trayvon had only 2 injuries when he was supposedly getting beaten but yet Zimmerman had numerous injuries in places that can only be described as due to being beaten? Trayvons were busted knuckles  :mid:  and a gun shot.. Zimmerman had 3 to 4 distinct lacerations on the back of his head (it is harder then people realize to bust someones scalp like that once let alone more than once unless it's against something hard), potentially broken and severely bloodied nose and severely blackened eyes.. 

He claimed he was ambushed and hit in the nose straight away, ever been hit in the nose? You lose vision immediately due to the pain and the bodies reactions like eyes tearing for example. Amazingly he had a severely injured nose? hmmmm.. he claimed Martin was smashing his head on the sidewalk, incredibly he had several lacerations on the back of his head, how much of a beating does a person have to take to feel their life is danger? Then Trayvon saw his jacket slide up and noticed his gun and no doubt tried to remove it and use it, end of story, the end result would have been the same had ANY cop been in the same position and they'd be justified too.

This guy was doing his job and doing a good job of it too and it's a thankless one, not to mention a dangerous one as a community crime watch captain and not once was his calls to police racist, insulting, disrespectful, panicked or out of control.

Nearly everything he said in his original claim has been corroborated by supposed prosecutorial witnesses and by the "star witnesses" own testimony the only one displaying any racism in this incident was Martin in his references to "crazy cracker" etc..

Zimmerman made these statements well before he was ever privy to any witness statements and prior to his even being charged. He is the victim here and his life is now ruined for merely defending himself, the cops had it correct from the beginning by not charging him and were forced to charge him due to Al & Jessie jumping to the wrong conclusion as per their usual and screaming foul when there was none. 

He clearly says he was the one calling for help and even speaks about the only true witness that came out in the middle of his being beaten and then went in to call police, he had all the defensive injuries while Trayvon had the only offensive ones.

Now we as tax payers have to pay for an expensive, unwarranted and invalid case against an innocent man and it even appears based on the seemingly intentional mistakes that the prosecutors are making that even they don't want him convicted and may be sabotaging the case. Rightfully so IMO and the conscionable thing to do as they too have been backed into a corner with no other way out. 

Even the cops have all said he is credible and basically innocent. His life is ruined and this trial has cost well over 1/2 a million just for him to defend his innocence and that's the REAL injustice here, that's worthy of repeating, over $500,000USD for his innocence.. Personally I think he ought to sue Jackson and Sharpton for defamation and recover his defense costs and more if possible once he's exonerated of the charges. He has a case for it and I would relish seeing it to shut up those loud mouthed, arrogant, nosy, b'stards..

This is a case that should have never been tried and would not have been were it not for the over-zealous black community that just can't accept that there are blacks here that are part of a lot of the crime.

After 40 years of life here in Florida and now back again after the worst 10 years of my life in various parts of Thailand those who say Florida is bad or sucks are nothing more then clueless dipshits out of touch with reality as it is so far beyond Thailand in weather, cleanliness, beauty, entertainment, quality of life as a whole etc. it is not even worth discussing  ::chitown:: ..

The 10-20-life penalties do not apply in this case..The poster that said it applies to armed robberies is correct, not self defense cases  :ourrules: ..

BTW greetings to all.... :bananaman:

----------


## S Landreth

> BTW greetings to all....


do you watch FOX news also?   :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

What a fucking load of old tosh. He was barely scratched. I've seen Thai birds inflict worse injuries.

Again: Zimmerman is a curtain-twitching police wannabe who ignored a police directive, made a snap and racist judgement about an unarmed teenager, probably tried to confront him, got his arse kicked and shot the bloke dead out of fear.

He'll probably get off, but don't try and paint it him as a hero, he's a worthless piece of shit and I personally hope he gets the same standard of justice as the one he meted out.

----------


## leemo

> Originally Posted by leemo
> 
> 
> Hope the riots end before Xmas.
> 
> 
> If there are riots - black riots - in this circumstantial case, the blacks will just force alienation an dislike towards them, including from me.


They and their liberal multikulti enablers will use it to further exploit white guilt. That's been working well for the past decades, so no reason to suspect the rank and file might suddenly clue up.

----------


## Boon Mee

> What a fucking load of old tosh. He was barely scratched. I've seen Thai birds inflict worse injuries.
> 
> Again: Zimmerman is a curtain-twitching police wannabe who ignored a police directive, made a snap and racist judgement about an unarmed teenager, probably tried to confront him, got his arse kicked and shot the bloke dead out of fear.
> 
> He'll probably get off, but don't try and paint it him as a hero, he's a worthless piece of shit and I personally hope he gets the same standard of justice as the one he meted out.


Wouldn't want to be around your kinda Thai chicks!  :rofl:

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> 
> BTW greetings to all....
> 
> 
> do you watch FOX news also?


Silly comment, as if.. I guess you get yours by osmosis? or some other unearthly source? surely it MUST be more credible? :mid:   ::chitown::

----------


## leemo

> Originally Posted by Storekeeper
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> ...


There you go again, drawing on sensible facts that are sometimes easily overlooked by the zeal in some types to "fairly and justly" convict. But the fact you failed to include is that Martin was black and the Liberal Alliance early on categorised the Hispanic Z as white because that's convenient for the anal retensive "anti-racists."

This trial is about race, not justice, as will be the riots if any, but lets not forget that other added incentive of a few looted freebies.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> What a fucking load of old tosh. He was barely scratched. I've seen Thai birds inflict worse injuries.
> 
> Again: Zimmerman is a curtain-twitching police wannabe who ignored a police directive, made a snap and racist judgement about an unarmed teenager, probably tried to confront him, got his arse kicked and shot the bloke dead out of fear.
> 
> He'll probably get off, but don't try and paint it him as a hero, he's a worthless piece of shit and I personally hope he gets the same standard of justice as the one he meted out.


hmm since you're so well connected (must be BBC) what police detective did he ignore??

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> What a fucking load of old tosh. He was barely scratched. I've seen Thai birds inflict worse injuries.
> 
> Again: Zimmerman is a curtain-twitching police wannabe who ignored a police directive, made a snap and racist judgement about an unarmed teenager, probably tried to confront him, got his arse kicked and shot the bloke dead out of fear.
> 
> He'll probably get off, but don't try and paint it him as a hero, he's a worthless piece of shit and I personally hope he gets the same standard of justice as the one he meted out.
> 
> ...


Well stated, but he's right to a point as I believe Zimmerman still has his manhood in tact, hadn't heard otherwise  ::spin:: ....

Weird, I couldn't quote your post in full I had to remove the photo?

----------


## robuzo

> The 10-20-life penalties do not apply in this case..The poster that said it applies to armed robberies is correct, not self defense cases ..


Definitely, the woman looking at 20 years under 10-20-life for shooting a warning shot instead of shooting her husband was also in the process of robbing him, in her own house. But it does appear that 10-20-life is not applied in manslaughter cases.

"After 40 years of life here in Florida and now back again after *the worst 10 years of my life in various parts of Thailand"*

Crybaby. Makes a lot of sense to post here, then. "FloridaBorn"- is that Floridian for "Smeg"?

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> 
> The 10-20-life penalties do not apply in this case..The poster that said it applies to armed robberies is correct, not self defense cases ..
> 
> 
> Definitely, the woman looking at 20 years under 10-20-life for shooting a warning shot instead of shooting her husband was also in the process of robbing him, in her own house. But it does appear that 10-20-life is not applied in manslaughter cases.
> 
> "After 40 years of life here in Florida and now back again after *the worst 10 years of my life in various parts of Thailand"*
> ...


Crybaby is it? Because I realized life was better here then there and planned for a way out when others have boxed themselves in??  :bananaman:  :smiley laughing: .. Sounds like sour grapes and regret on your part  :mid:  ..Personally I believe in to each his own, sadly just like this thread, that choice is disallowed, where some people are concerned..

JFYI I posted to set the record straight there was so much ignorance and blind perspective being posted from afar, I found this thread purely by accident searching something else..

----------


## Norton

> After 40 years of life here in Florida


Great a Florida resident. Clear the "media" has turned this whole trial into a racial thing. You live there so tell us what you believe the response will be 1) If Zimmerman is found not guilty and walks and 2) If he is convicted even though as many suggest prosecution has not presented evidence to convict.

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> ...


^I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. You must admit, nonetheless, that Zimmerman chose to follow Martin, after being told by the dispatcher that he didn't need to. Also, you wrote above, "This guy was doing his job and doing a good job of it too and it's a thankless one" Yes, a thankless, self-appointed task, those really are the worst kind, not to mention that Neighborhood Watch volunteers aren't supposed to go around packing heat (you could look it up).

----------


## Boon Mee

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> ...


Here it is again:

----------


## S Landreth

> Originally Posted by S Landreth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by FloridahBorn
> ...


As if? As if,...in that  you wouldn't watch anything else  :Smile: 

More than likely you haven't formed any real opinion on the case, you are (a FOX news watcher) more than likely a bigot/racist and have a preconceived opinion.

In Zimmerman/Martin case, some people see only what they want - OrlandoSentinel.com

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> 
> BTW greetings to all....
> 
> 
> do you watch FOX news also?


Curious? Why Fox news? Do they have other police investigative videos, evidence and live courtroom testimony that differs from other sources?? I must rush over and check them out...

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridahBorn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by S Landreth
> ...


Yes, I'm all of these and somehow you know me so well?? a complete stranger? I'm a bigot against bigots, racism, injustice and single mindedness. The bigots, racists and people with preconceived opinions here have only been in the black community from day one, you're one of them too no doubt?  :gw bush:

----------


## Noosa

When is a verdict due?

Another one, two, three weeks?

----------


## leemo

The inquest will come after the verdict.

----------


## Noosa

Thanks, but that still doesn't answer the question.  :Smile:

----------


## leemo

The verdict arrives when the jury have deliberated and voted, which comes after the judge's summing up at the end of the trial.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> What a fucking load of old tosh. He was barely scratched. I've seen Thai birds inflict worse injuries.
> 
> Again: Zimmerman is a curtain-twitching police wannabe who ignored a police directive, made a snap and racist judgement about an unarmed teenager, probably tried to confront him, got his arse kicked and shot the bloke dead out of fear.
> 
> He'll probably get off, but don't try and paint it him as a hero, he's a worthless piece of shit and I personally hope he gets the same standard of justice as the one he meted out.
> 
> ...


Er.... "*Directive*".

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 




> *George Zimmerman was told not to pursue suspects or act as vigilante police* during instruction to serve as Neighborhood Watch coordinator at the central Florida condominium complex where he fatally shot teenager Trayvon Martin, a prosecution witness told jurors.
> 
> During the second day of testimony in Zimmermans murder trial today in Florida state court, *Wendy Dorival of the Sanford Police* told jurors that she visited the Retreat at Twin Lakes condo community in September 2011 at Zimmermans request to explain Neighborhood Watch to about 25 residents.


George Zimmerman was warned not to be ‘vigilante police,’ court hears | World | News | National Post




> De la Rionda replayed a portion of the Feb. 29 interview tape in court, in which Zimmerman says, *"They told me not to follow him. I wasn't following him, I was just going in the same direction."*
> 
> *"That's following," Serino said on the tape.*
> 
> *O'Mara asked whether Serino had any evidence that Zimmerman continued to follow Trayvon Martin after a non-emergency dispatcher told him not to.*
> 
> "I would answer I have information, *yes*," Serino said. "Just based on where we located Trayvon and the fact that the altercation happened after the confrontation. That's my interpretation. There was some following."


George Zimmerman trial: Chris Serino, lead detective in case of Trayvon Martin killing, takes stand again Tuesday - Crimesider - CBS News

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## Noosa

> The verdict arrives when the jury have deliberated and voted, which comes after the judge's summing up at the end of the trial.


And when is that due to happen? (I haven't followed it at all)

Just looking for an approx time frame for knowing when the riots will start.  :Smile:

----------


## barbaro

> Originally Posted by leemo
> 
> 
> The verdict arrives when the jury have deliberated and voted, which comes after the judge's summing up at the end of the trial.
> 
> 
> And when is that due to happen? (I haven't followed it at all)


The defense will present its case Monday, tomorrow.  When the defense is finished (I think the prosecution can make another presentation after the defense is finished), then the jury will deliberate to reach a verdict.  




> Just looking for an approx time frame for knowing when the riots will start.


As I noted, if the blacks do stupid things because of this, they really are stupid.  Nobody even knows who started the physical confrontation.

I agree with the posts on this page, that this case is about race.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> After 40 years of life here in Florida
> 
> 
> Great a Florida resident. Clear the "media" has turned this whole trial into a racial thing. You live there so tell us what you believe the response will be 1) If Zimmerman is found not guilty and walks and 2) If he is convicted even though as many suggest prosecution has not presented evidence to convict.


Honestly wish I knew, so far it seems calm and not many comments either way. I think there is a realization and acceptance by many even in the black community that he is innocent and there are a lot of good black people in this community. It is more culturally diverse then any other I've ever lived in. If anything it will come from small numbers of frustrated, impressionable, delinquent youth lacking motivation who are looking for a fight anyways and just need an excuse, any excuse, so this one will do in Trayvons name, which IMO would not be the way to honor him either if everything being said is true and he was just an innocent teen who tragically got shot, on the contrary it would leave the opposite impression..

Don't forget when it first happened there were a number of black neighbors who came forward in Zimmermans defense and said that there had been plenty of recent burglaries and "black people doing bad things" and they knew him to be a good person and doing a job for the community to keep it safe so he has allies and if the outsiders like Al and Jessie who have no clue of what  they speak, no stake in this community and can refrain from firing up the riot squad I think for the community it'll blow over in short order, I hope I'm right with my impressions..

The other day when I pulled up to an intersection I noticed there was a sign put there, it was a temporary type construction sign on a trailer next to the road put there by the Sheriffs office asking people to report suspicious activities and so forth with a number so when someone does, (and it's been mentioned often by the Caucasian community in talk forums) that someone calls about suspicious people or other they are afraid of being immediately branded racist and accused of profiling so it can't work both ways..

It's a real feeling of repression and it's causing a lot of needless tensions as you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by robuzo
> ...


The CIVILIAN dispatcher was not on the scene and had no idea of the circumstances on the ground. Zimmerman was forced to follow Trayvon as he went in between buildings out of sight, down a path behind them and the police were on the way so it was necessary for him to have proper information and eyes on the suspicious person to aid the police, do his job and NOT waste their time by not knowing anything when they arrived.. 

It's like blaming the rape victim or the assault victim for being in the wrong place at the wrong time or wearing the wrong clothes instead of the actual criminal and his actions, this was Zimmermans home turf (for lack of a better term) NOT Trayvons and not in a public, but a purely residential area. He was patrolling and protecting himself and his neighbors on his time and without pay, a selfless act many are not familiar with these days..

Contrary to what you state, Florida residents have the right to carry licensed concealed firearms, openly too I might add, regardless of being community watch or otherwise, additionally he is not on trial for that, it's never even been a part of the charges or in question so obviously your point is specious and he was well within his rights to do so. Not to mention had he NOT had his firearm likely this case would be about Trayvons murder of an unarmed community watch captain and I guess that'd suit you and others of your ilk better or more likely in your minds that would just be another case of profiling and racism by even taking him to trial?

All the crap about his training and everything is senseless because of course it makes complete sense that he knows his rights and limits and how to protect himself and others, I'd be far more concerned if he had no clue about his responsibilities like the honorable Rev Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson do about the facts of this case..

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> ...


Ermm it wasn't a police "directive" either which is WHY you can't intelligently discuss this case as you have no clue of the facts. Unlike you and others, here we don't just get a few minutes blurbs on International news or some biased blog versions, here this case is, unfortunately, crammed down our throats live all day long whether we like or not. 

It was a recommendation by a CIVILIAN police dispatcher with no field training and a situation manual in front of him, sitting in a room behind a computer screen and with no police powers. I'd even venture to say that Zimmerman had/has more field training then this dispatcher does and certainly knew more about the situation on the ground then he did..

And yes he wasn't a vigilante, he was an assault victim defending himself.. Even by the words on both the phone and the star witness in every instance Trayvon was the aggressor, displayed the racism was also the one displaying aggression before the confrontation with comments on the phone like "this weird cracker is following me" and "I'm gonna go see what this nigga is doing" (paraphrasing of course) when he could have just kept on his way.. If that approach works for the defendant then surely it applies to the victim who was not in his own neighborhood anyways giving him less rights to be there in the first place..

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## sabang

> you have no clue of the facts


I doubt anyone does who just has the media to go by. You are Floridian, one of 19 million, congratulations. Just wondering, what insight to the actual facts of this case is available to you as a Floridian that is not available to, say, some black kid in Philly posting from Moms basement?

----------


## leemo

> Originally Posted by leemo
> 
> 
> The verdict arrives when the jury have deliberated and voted, which comes after the judge's summing up at the end of the trial.
> 
> 
> And when is that due to happen? (I haven't followed it at all)
> 
> Just looking for an approx time frame for knowing when the riots will start.


A date and time would be nice, then we can join the bleeding hearts to sit back and watch in feigned surprise as the underdog fights back against our 'racist' society. But might be worth stocking up on essentials from now, like foodstuffs or hoodie and baseball bat depending on how poor and deprived you are. 

Or of course it may be that Americas Sharptons and Jacksons and Barrys figure that the honkeys have had just about enough of their crybaby tactics and might start fighting back against black supremacy culture engendered by white guilt foisted upon us by the hate filled Liberal multikulti inbreds. I don't think they would want that because they are cowards at heart, and though it would cause industrial carnage and disruption for a while the end result is a foregone conclusion.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> you have no clue of the facts
> 
> 
> I doubt anyone does who just has the media to go by. You are Floridian, one of 19 million, congratulations. Just wondering, what insight to the actual facts of this case is available to you as a Floridian that is not available to, say, some black kid in Philly posting from Moms basement?


Well for one the fact that I don't believe I was discussing with some black kid in Philly but he would still have to understand what was going on here locally and the legalities of not only Florida but law in general, that is not likely to happen and also because Sanford is only miles from where I live and the details here have been more comprehensive then what is generally widely known as it's not summarized & opinionated by the media to the same level as national and International networks but rather it's live court room testimony to draw one's own conclusions but with some additional facts to draw on like the police investigation videos for example..

Look let's view it in this light. This watch captain made upwards of 40 calls over his tenure as watch captain regarding various suspicious persons and even previous identified suspects wanted for local break-ins. JFYI the prosecutors only choose 5 of those calls to even attempt (weakly) to show he had some racist agenda and yet they failed miserably as 3 of 4 of those calls were regarding the same suspects of a community break in that had already been identified by other witnesses and he was calling to have the police come and arrest them.. Again, in EVERY call he never even made voluntary comment regarding the races of the suspects until he was questioned by the dispatcher for identification purposes.

In all that time he was vetted repeatedly by the local police who's job is it to weed out nutters and potential problem watchers, I.E. vigilante's or over-zealous enforcer types, did they peg him for one? Rhetorical question as the answer is NO, in fact they respected him for his professionalism and then further demonstrated it during this entire investigation and their testimony thus far. Is the entire police department that incompetent really?? Well maybe but not in reality, he has not had a single detractor of official capacity testify against him, not one and they are the supposed prosecution witnesses..

This ain't Thailand you can't buy them like back there and the police here love to score points with arrests and maintain impartiality more so than most, meaning if they really suspected him they would not have hesitated for one nano second to arrest and charge him regardless of his relationship with them.

They did not, until outside pressure was unjustly imposed and instigated without any REAL knowledge of the facts of the case as that happened within days and the investigation was still ongoing and facts of the case were not yet public at that point..

One more final point, it was days before we even really knew Zimmermans actual race himself due to his last name and there was a lot of confusion surrounding that initially. That was the catalyst for the usual suspects to begin their parade of racist bigots to call for a trial as in their warped minds it had to be race related and then it finally came out that he was actually primarily Hispanic after the fact. All the marches had already been demonstrated and Al especially being the grade A ass that he is still hasn't backed down and continues to make a triple D cup boob out of himself in the press while even Jackson seems to have begun to see the light and has mostly dropped out of the limelight..

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## S Landreth

> and also because Sanford is only miles from where I live





> until outside pressure was unjustly imposed



you stay glued to FOX don't ya?   :Smile:

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## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridahBorn
> 
> 
> and also because Sanford is only miles from where I live
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What the hell are you on about? Have you not read or just chosen to ignore my previous answer to your simpleton question? I don't know? Is channel 13 fox news?? No, in fact it's local, it's only one of many, maybe, unlike you I'm capable of forming an educated opinion through numerous sources including live testimony and not just one..

It sounds like your suggesting that because I live in central Florida I'm a Xtian and you'd be way off base..

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## Storekeeper

> It's a shame so many here have no clue about either Florida or much about this case.
> 
> Doesn't it strike anyone strange that Trayvon had only 2 injuries when he was supposedly getting beaten but yet Zimmerman had numerous injuries in places that can only be described as due to being beaten? 
> 
> He claimed he was ambushed and hit in the nose straight away, ever been hit in the nose? 
> 
> This guy was doing his job and doing a good job of it too 
> 
> He clearly says he was the one calling for help and even speaks about the only true witness that came out in the middle of his being beaten 
> ...


Forgive me for deleting most of the chaff from your response but it made it easier for me to your points:

1. Not sure it has any bearing on an open forum where posters are simply sharing their opinions. Surely you don't mind this unless you just simply don't like that some don't "jive" with yours?

2 & 3. Not sure I would have responded any differently had I been the one being followed in an unmarked car by somebody not identified as either law enforcement or a neighborhood watch ... After all the great ole USA does have a problem from time to time with fake cops and Jeffery Dahmer types ...

4. Was Zimmerman acting in the capacity of a neighborhood watch at the time of his incident ? I ask because when read about Neighborhood Watches on wiki it climbed he wasn't. Not sure it matters under Florida law but it would reinforce my personal opinion that Zimmerman is a punk ass bitch. And he must not be that good since he did let Trayvon get the jump on him.

5. Maybe, maybe not ... Not sure.  Either way he put himself in a bad position. What about the two female roommates who vehemently claim it was Trayvon yelling for help?

6, 7 and 8 ... Yeah, Zimmerman is a great guy ... Been sucking up to the cops for who knows how long cause he was a wannabe ... Now I have a better understanding why he wasn't charged with anything in the first place. Love how you say Zimmerman is "basically" innocent.

Last point ... Sorry if my responses are out of order ...  Can't be arsed to go check them again ... Why in the hell did you stay in Thailand for 10 years if it sucked so bad? I'll leave that for you to elaborate on in another thread.

----------


## barbaro

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> you have no clue of the facts
> 
> 
> I doubt anyone does who just has the media to go by. You are Floridian, one of 19 million, congratulations. *Just wondering, what insight to the actual facts of this case is available to you as a Floridian that is not available to, say, some black kid in Philly posting from Moms basement?*


Seriously,

Blacks tend to have access to the same information if they want it, but choose to not research it.  Yes, this is a generalization. 

And this is apparent in this case.

Blacks tend to do stupid things on these matters. Many examples..

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## harrybarracuda

> The CIVILIAN dispatcher was not on the scene and had no idea of the circumstances on the ground. Zimmerman was forced to follow Trayvon as he went in between buildings out of sight, down a path behind them and the police were on the way so it was necessary for him to have proper information and eyes on the suspicious person to aid the police, do his job and NOT waste their time by not knowing anything when they arrived..


I told you only a few posts before this, Zimmerman was instructed by the police NOT to follow suspects when he was being trained in Neighbourhood watch; then he was instructed by a dispatcher on the night NOT to follow the suspect.

It was "not necessary" for him to do anything, especially as the victim wasn't actually doing anything other than walking home.

Again, just so you get it:

Zimmerman had been told TWICE - by the police - not to follow suspects.

His actions in ignoring police advice led to this needless killing. I think he should pay for it somehow.

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## leemo

I wonder if there would be such an interest and debate if Martin was a white bloke.

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## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by S Landreth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by FloridahBorn
> ...


  Now Now , calm down FB, you'll soon get to know that to many (not me) Fox News  on these boards is akin to Journalistic Bubonic plague  :rofl:

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## piwanoi

> I wonder if there would be such an interest and debate if Martin was a white bloke.


 Or Zimmerman was Black! :Smile:

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## harrybarracuda

> I wonder if there would be such an interest and debate if Martin was a white bloke.


There would be from me. Interfering little jobsworths are bad enough when they are not armed.

 :Smile:

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## leemo

> Originally Posted by leemo
> 
> 
> I wonder if there would be such an interest and debate if Martin was a white bloke.
> 
> 
>  Or Zimmerman was Black!


That was the point of my query. Z might have been classed as black by the liberal establishment if a white bloke had offed him, but in this instance he is conveniently white for the priceless racial angle by the same corrupt elites. 

True black on black would be a wash, family of victim and defendant both claim racism and it's added to the stats, but no threat of riots so with or without a trial it stays low profile.

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## harrybarracuda

I think the howls of racism are what has led to the prosecution seeking a seemingly unattainable conviction.

But I suppose if the judge and jury knock it down to a lesser charge and he gets *some* jail time, it may satisfy all parties except Martin's family.

It's all a bit of a show trial, isn't it?

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## robuzo

> I think the howls of racism are what has led to the prosecution seeking a seemingly unattainable conviction.
> 
> But I suppose if the judge and jury knock it down to a lesser charge and he gets *some* jail time, it may satisfy all parties except Martin's family.
> 
> It's all a bit of a show trial, isn't it?


It probably doesn't make a lot of sense, but the prosecutors were probably deliberately aiming high with a 2nd degree murder charge, demonstrating the gravity with which the state views the offense, etc., knowing that establishing the mens rea for homicide would be a stretch but the process might itself make the accused's negligence more obvious to the jury. A manslaughter conviction is still pretty damned serious.

As to being a "show trial," what's on trial is the ill-conceived "stand your ground" rule that allowed Zimmerman to walk in the first place (as he would not have in most US states) as well as the responsibilities of people who decide to carry firearms. If people who legally carry can view strapping on a gun as an excuse to be more aggressive than they otherwise would be, then society faces the prospect of becoming even more violent than it already is. It's not unreasonable to assume that had wimpy George not been packing he would not have been so bold; without the gat the neighborhood spaniel wouldn't have fancied himself a Doberman but could have been just as vigilant. If you think you need to carry a gun (or, let's face it, any weapon, although most Americans seem stupid enough to believe that "arms," from the Latin "arma," strictly means "guns," just as "well-regulated militia" means "anybody"), then as an American under the current idiotic interpretation of the 2nd A that's your right, but you'd better be damned careful about using it; don't spark unnecessary, potentially deadly confrontations because you are packing, and when one or both parties has a gun _any_ confrontation is potentially deadly. The cowboys need an excuse to have second thoughts.

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## barbaro

Just an update on today´s reports on this trial.

In court, at least one police officer (Serino) testified that Martin´s dad claimed the screaming was not his sons.

Also, the toxicology reort of marijuana in his system is allowed as well as the medical opinion of whether it could have affected Marting judgement.

And, the photos of Martin smoking pot, a gun, and marijuana plants.

Relevant to what happened that day?  I don´t know.  But it is all about.....reasonable doubt. 

In Reversal, Florida Judge Okays Testimony About Trayvon Martin

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## barbaro

*Handgun, Pot Plants Found On Trayvon Martin's Cell Phone*

Comments(230) Share  


 In a bid to muddy up Trayvon Martin in advance of trial, a lawyer for  George Zimmerman has released photos of a handgun and marijuana plants  that were found on the late teenager’s cell phone.
 In a court filing today, attorney Mark O’Mara




the 17-year-old. However,  during his testimony last week, Bao referenced Martin’s THC level,  noting that “Marijuana could have no effect or some effect.” 
 In Zimmerman’s call to a non-emergency police line, he told a  dispatcher that a person he was observing (who turned out to be Martin)  appeared to be “on drugs.”
 Zimmerman’s lawyers have previously argued that they should be  allowed to introduce evidence of Martin’s drug use, pointing to text  messages appearing to refer to his use of marijuana. Additionally, the  attorneys also unsuccessfully argued for the admittance of a pair of photos of pot plants that were found on Martin’s cell phone. Other recovered images showed a handgun and Martin blowing smoke from his mouth (as seen above).


Link for these photos and text is in the above post.

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## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> 
> The CIVILIAN dispatcher was not on the scene and had no idea of the circumstances on the ground. Zimmerman was forced to follow Trayvon as he went in between buildings out of sight, down a path behind them and the police were on the way so it was necessary for him to have proper information and eyes on the suspicious person to aid the police, do his job and NOT waste their time by not knowing anything when they arrived.. 
> 
> 
> I told you only a few posts before this, Zimmerman was instructed by the police NOT to follow suspects when he was being trained in Neighbourhood watch; then he was instructed by a dispatcher on the night NOT to follow the suspect.
> 
> It was "not necessary" for him to do anything, especially as the victim wasn't actually doing anything other than walking home.
> ...


First off since you were not there it's not up to you or the police to decide what he felt was necessary actions at the time obviously they felt (the investigators and police on the scene) that he was not acting outside of his bounds during then even as he was not charged with anything and that's the point here. No matter what you THINK was unnecessary actions on his part he violated no laws at the time (or police orders) in regards to his following the suspicious person in his neighborhood worth charging him for and he still hasn't been charged for anything else either.. 

It happened, he did it, it still does not justify the beating he took just for justifiably asking a complete stranger what he was doing in THEIR neighborhood?

And JFYI he has paid for it and will for the rest of his life..

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## FloridaBorn

> I think the howls of racism are what has led to the prosecution seeking a seemingly unattainable conviction.
> 
> But I suppose if the judge and jury knock it down to a lesser charge and he gets *some* jail time, it may satisfy all parties except Martin's family.
> 
> It's all a bit of a show trial, isn't it?


He's already gotten jail time, more than enough for merely defending himself..

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## leemo

> I think the howls of racism are what has led to the prosecution seeking a seemingly unattainable conviction.
> 
> But I suppose if the judge and jury knock it down to a lesser charge and he gets *some* jail time, it may satisfy all parties except Martin's family.
> 
> It's all a bit of a show trial, isn't it?


Absolutely, but forget trying to get the Leftist zealots to agree.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> *Handgun, Pot Plants Found On Trayvon Martin's Cell Phone*
> 
> Comments(230) Share  
> 
> 
>  In a bid to muddy up Trayvon Martin in advance of trial, a lawyer for  George Zimmerman has released photos of a handgun and marijuana plants  that were found on the late teenagers cell phone.
>  In a court filing today, attorney Mark OMara
> 
> 
> ...


7 witnesses today testified unequivocally that it WAS Zimmermans voice calling for help in the background on the 911 call..

----------


## leemo

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> I think the howls of racism are what has led to the prosecution seeking a seemingly unattainable conviction.
> 
> But I suppose if the judge and jury knock it down to a lesser charge and he gets *some* jail time, it may satisfy all parties except Martin's family.
> 
> It's all a bit of a show trial, isn't it?
> 
> ...


Can't say I know enough about US law to agree or disagree, but if based on the political angle you mention this makes it a show trial, with Z as the patsy.

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## Boon Mee

> Can't say I know enough about US law to agree or disagree, but if based on the political angle you mention this makes it a show trial, with* Z as the patsy.*


That's all it amounted to...

----------


## leemo

> Just an update on today´s reports on this trial.
> 
> In court, at least one police officer (Serino) testified that Martin´s dad claimed the screaming was not his sons.
> 
> Also, the toxicology reort of marijuana in his system is allowed as well as the medical opinion of whether it could have affected Marting judgement.
> 
> And, the photos of Martin smoking pot, a gun, and marijuana plants.
> 
> Relevant to what happened that day?  I don´t know.  But it is all about.....reasonable doubt. 
> ...


Hope it is, but might not be relevant to the murder charge. Still, such facts help to demolish the Leftist media's depraved instinct to fraudulently portray Martin immediately after the event as a much younger, cute, smiling, respectable, clean cut angelic black kid with ambitions to participate in the American dream.

Problem is, the masses tend to enjoy a goldfish memory and hate-filled Leftists have no capacity for shame, so it'll be washed over, rinsed and repeated the next time a "white" is attacked by a black and kills it.

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## Storekeeper

> Originally Posted by leemo
> 
> 
> 
> Can't say I know enough about US law to agree or disagree, but if based on the political angle you mention this makes it a show trial, with* Z as the patsy.*
> 
> 
> That's all it amounted to...


Apparently the parents of a Trayvon settled with the neighborhood homeowner's association a couple months back .. Can't find an exact amount but figures seem to range from $125,000 - $2,000,000 ... 

Maybe our BKK embassy friend in Florida has insider first hand information to this ...

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## leemo

I wouldn't have given them the time of day.

----------


## Pound Hound

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> What a fucking load of old tosh. He was barely scratched. I've seen Thai birds inflict worse injuries.
> 
> Again: Zimmerman is a curtain-twitching police wannabe who ignored a police directive, made a snap and racist judgement about an unarmed teenager, probably tried to confront him, got his arse kicked and shot the bloke dead out of fear.
> 
> He'll probably get off, but don't try and paint it him as a hero, he's a worthless piece of shit and I personally hope he gets the same standard of justice as the one he meted out.
> 
> ...


2 things boon...

once they cleaned it up the (3) lacerations smaller than 1/4" inch... so pussy boy is bleeder... and still does not jive with having your head "bashed" into the sidewalk... scraped while wrestling? absolutely...

and why is the blood running towards his face if he was on the bottom? pussy boys blood defy gravity?

I'd kick that fat smug bastards ass for 5 dollars  :Smile:  
oh... that's right he would shoot me if I punch him...

pussy boy....

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## Necron99

^ What legal right did Zimmerman have to question or confront anybody?

----------


## barbaro

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by leemo
> ...


SK,

I read (sorry no link) that it was for a million dollars.

Makes sense.  A death....$1,000,000.

I will do a search tomorrow.

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## leemo

$1m is more than he would have made dealing dope and stealing from honest and respectable people. But add a lifetime of benefits to make it about right, and they should be well pleased.

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## jamescollister

> ^ What legal right did Zimmerman have to question or confront anybody?


Same right as most people in the world have to ask a question. 
Live in Issan and strangers will often ask by nie, where are you going. Doesn't give me a right to punch them. 
Someone climbing on your neighbors roof, you ask him what are you doing up there. He can say putting up satellite dish, your not a cop and he then can come down and beat on you.
Scary world you must live in, if you are afraid to ask a stranger a question. Jim

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by Necron99
> 
> 
> ^ What legal right did Zimmerman have to question or confront anybody?
> 
> 
> Same right as most people in the world have to ask a question. 
> Live in Issan and strangers will often ask by nie, where are you going. Doesn't give me a right to punch them. 
> Someone climbing on your neighbors roof, you ask him what are you doing up there. He can say putting up satellite dish, your not a cop and he then can come down and beat on you.
> Scary world you must live in, if you are afraid to ask a stranger a question. Jim


Jim, if a stranger follows me and asks me where I'm going, the answer is going to contain the following words:  Business. None. Your. Fucking. Of.

----------


## robuzo

^Never mind, Harry, a middle-aged white guy gets a pass. A young man, especially a dark-skinned lad in a hoody eating Skittles and drinking iced tea, has to explain himself.

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## RickThai

> ^. A young man, especially a dark-skinned lad in a hoody eating Skittles and drinking iced tea, has to explain himself.


He doesn't have to explain himself, but if he hides in the bushes and then physcially attacks a person for asking him a question, then he should MAKE SURE THE PERSON IS NOT CARRYING A GUN!

RickThai

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## RickThai

> .
> I'd kick that fat smug bastards ass for 5 dollars  
> oh... that's right he would shoot me if I punch him...
> 
> pussy boy....


And you would have deserved it, same as martin.

RickThai

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## barbaro

> ^Never mind, Harry, a middle-aged white guy gets a pass. A young man, especially a dark-skinned lad in a hoody eating Skittles and drinking iced tea, has to explain himself.


As for Harry's post above, I would would respond rudely also if someone/stranger was following me an asking that.  But....if he/she was polite and explained there were burglaries and crimes committed, then I would be fine about it.

robuzo notes profiling based on race.  

I presume Martin was profiled for a couple reasons: male, "acting strange," "suspicious," black.

Martin did fit the profile of the burglars that had been burglarizing the neighborhood.  Some of these burglars were caught. 

So race, was a part of the profile.

(We can only assume what Zimmerman says is true, or we can be skeptical, obviously.)

A white kid wearing a polo shirt and khakis would likely not have aroused Zimmerman's suspicion.

Profile of the burglars in the neighborhood: fine.

Profiling him only for the reason he is black: bad.

Just MHO.

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## barbaro

Trial Day 9:

Forensic pathologist testifies Martin was on top of Z.

Injuries on the back of Z's head consistent with the head hitting the concrete more than once.

Z may have had a fractured nose.

George Zimmerman trial: Trayvon Martin was on top of Zimmerman when teen was shot, gunshot wound expert testifies - Crimesider - CBS News

Hard to predict juries, but me thinks 2nd degree is definitely and Zimmy may walk with no manslaughter.

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## Pound Hound

> Originally Posted by Pound Hound
> 
> 
> .
> I'd kick that fat smug bastards ass for 5 dollars  
> oh... that's right he would shoot me if I punch him...
> 
> pussy boy....
> 
> ...


 
dude... you are fucking crazy....

if you think you can shoot an unarmed person because he punches you!!! You are big of a pussy boy as GZ!

you are absolutely fucking bat shit craqzy and the problem with America today! You are the type of person who should NEVER EVER be allowed to own guns!!! you watched too many dirty harry movies! overhyped sense of security when you are packing huh rick?

guns are an absolute last resort!

by your logic every fight or any altercation should end in someone shot to death? 

THAT... without a doubt is one of the dumbest flows of logic I have ever heard regarding guns!

BTW... I am a NRA member and had a Conceal Carry Permit in Florida for years! You are just fucking crazy!!!!!

zim broke every rule and recommendation from the NRA, FDLE (C&C rules), FBI, neighborhood watch association, FTA etc... yet somehow you think he some kind of hero and did exactly what he was suppose to do.

fucking crazy ass shit....

and GZ was MMA trained and could not control a guy that weighed 50 less than him? he becomes a bigger pussy boy everyday!!

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## barbaro

> if you think you can shoot an unarmed person because he punches you!!! You are big of a pussy boy as GZ!
> 
> ....guns are an absolute last resort!
> 
> by your logic every fight or any altercation should end in someone shot to death?


Maybe to Zimm it was a last resort.  You're on the ground, unable to get away, getting punched, and having your head bashed against the concrete.

Maybe he perceived it as last resort.

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## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by Pound Hound
> 
> 
> if you think you can shoot an unarmed person because he punches you!!! You are big of a pussy boy as GZ!
> 
> ....guns are an absolute last resort!
> 
> by your logic every fight or any altercation should end in someone shot to death?
> 
> ...


  Barbaro, Your statement says it all, nothing more needs to be added  :Smile:

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## Pound Hound

you guys are missing the point. Being punched is not a reason to shoot somebody!

this whole idea that being beaten in a fist fight justifies shooting someone is bullshit. take your lumps and walk away. The law is clearer than most of you think. fists are not equal to guns.

and his head injuries are no way anything like "getting your head pounded in the pavement" you guys keep saying that but his head injuries do not even come close to supporting that.... not even close... looks like pussy boys head scraped on the pavement... utter bullshit... and screamed like a little pussy girl because he was losing a fight.

and just because GM "perceived" it to be his last resort does not make it legal or rational. He needed to exercise better judgment AND his actions directly resulted in an unarmed minor to be killed. He should of put a stick in his dead hand and we would not even be having this conversation!

did he shoot him because he was getting his "head smashed into the pavement" or because he was reaching for GM's gun? I can't see both. GM's story is just a little too perfect... you know best friend is an ex-cop... dad is a retired judge... took criminal justice classes... self defense classes... mmm hmm.... think his story was coached just a little?

I have been through NRA training and had the same C&C permit GM had. They tell you NEVER to confront people while carrying. NEVER!!!!!! The LAST thing you want to do is be close (within reach) of someone you perceive as a threat. That includes someone breaking into your house! You do not confront them! you place yourself in a defensive position and ANNOUNCE that your are armed and police have been called. That is a fucking break-in let alone approaching someone on the street that you "perceive" could be a threat!

I think the jury will look at his injuries and determine his life was not in danger, also he says TM saw his gun. lets take a look.

lets set the stage. GM on his back, TM is fully in his guard. How would he see or feel the gun? let alone reach under him with his left hand and grab it between the "grip and the hammer". when the grip is towards his spine. I think Pussy boy pulled it after he was punched in the nose and then the wrestling took place OR TM was letting him up and GZ pulled the gun and shot him, the shot could be from as far as 18" away. There are some serious holes in GZ story. 

 


I have grown bored with this....some of you people think you can soot an unarmed person because he punches you.. y'all watch too many movies and more than likely never had training to carry a concealed weapon.

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## piwanoi

> you guys are missing the point... being punched is not a reason to shoot somebody!
> 
> this whole idea that being beaten in a fist fight justifies shooting someone is bullshit. take your lumps and walk away.
> 
> The law is clearer than most of you think. fists are not equal to guns.
> 
> and his head injuries are no way anything like "getting your head pounded in the pavement" you guys keep saying that but his head injuries do not even come close to supporting that.... not even close... looks like pussy boys head scraped on the pavement... ohhhh I better kill him...
> 
> GM had some little dick complex.
> ...


  It all depends who's doing the punching ,have you any idea as to just how many people have been killed by a punch or a series punches to the head ?, many people carry lethal weapons in their fists , how did Zimmerman know that Martin was not one of them?

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## Boon Mee

> Originally Posted by Pound Hound
> 
> 
> you guys are missing the point... being punched is not a reason to shoot somebody!
> 
> this whole idea that being beaten in a fist fight justifies shooting someone is bullshit. take your lumps and walk away.
> 
> The law is clearer than most of you think. fists are not equal to guns.
> 
> ...


Exactly & witnesses told authorities that 'little Trayvon' was punching out Zim MMA style so if anyone was beat down like that and afraid for his life, pop that cap...

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## barbaro

> you guys are missing the point... being punched is not a reason to shoot somebody!
> 
> this whole idea that being beaten in a fist fight justifies shooting someone is bullshit. take your lumps and walk away.


1.  I agree being punched is not a reason to shoot somebody.

But under some circumstances, being on the ground, being straddled, and repeated punched can cause fear of serious injury.

2.  Zimm could not just walk away.  He was on his back, being straddled.  

He could not walk away.

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## piwanoi

Just one of the hundreds of cases over the years were some one has died as the result of a punch to the head, in this case the perpetrator of the crime was just 17 years oldSoccer referee's death shows how dangerous head blows can be - CBS News

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## robuzo

> He could not walk away.


Definitely, he had to follow the kid and challenge him, because after all, he was carrying a gun, what could wrong? Kid better not fuck with _him_.

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## Pound Hound

does the evidence show he was being punched repeatedly? he has one punch to the nose... that's all I see.

and MMA style? those were pussy boys words. you know the one who took MMA fighting training? But could not control  someone who weighs 50 pounds less than him?

and Jesus.... now everybody's fists are lethal weapons? that can be returned with gunfire? are all of you that big of pussies?

I am through with this debate.... 

all I ask is that if any of you actually own firearms... Please listen to my advice... so you don't wind up killing someone for punching you... its not legal guys... and PLEASE go get some training and actually listen to the instructor... unlike GZ... 

I am totally serious... and can't stress that enough....

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## piwanoi

All it takes is one single punch to kill some one ,as happened in the link with the 17 year kid doing the punching  :Smile:  and I can't stress that enough !

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## barbaro

> Originally Posted by barbaro
> 
> 
> He could not walk away.
> 
> 
> Definitely, he had to follow the kid and challenge him, because after all, he was carrying a gun, what could wrong? Kid better not fuck with _him_.


I have stated at least a couple of times in this thread that in my opinion Zimmerman initiated this whole incident.  

He should not have.  What he did in starting this was foolish and displayed a lack of common sense.

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## leemo

> you guys are missing the point. Being punched is not a reason to shoot somebody!
> 
> this whole idea that being beaten in a fist fight justifies shooting someone is bullshit. take your lumps and walk away. The law is clearer than most of you think. fists are not equal to guns.


A punch might not justify retaliating with a gun, but if Z perceived that the attack upon him endangered his life, this allows him full menu to respond.





> and his head injuries are no way anything like "getting your head pounded in the pavement" you guys keep saying that but his head injuries do not even come close to supporting that.... not even close... looks like pussy boys head scraped on the pavement... utter bullshit... and screamed like a little pussy girl because he was losing a fight.


Not to someone sitting behind a keyboard wearing an imaginary wig and holding a gavel. And even if you are able to boast that you were once being severely beaten up whilst carrying a gun, but decided calm and cool to disengage and leg it, if indeed you were afforded the opportunity, your actions have zero bearing on those of others except as an ego enhancement.





> and just because GM "perceived" it to be his last resort does not make it legal or rational. He needed to exercise better judgment AND his actions directly resulted in an unarmed minor to be killed. He should of put a stick in his dead hand and we would not even be having this conversation!


If he perceived it to be his last resort that makes it not only perfectly reasonable, rational *and* legal, but also expected. 

Your definition of better judgment could have lead to nobody ever hearing of Zimmerman, or a white bloke murdered by black street trash because Z would likely have been categorised as Hispanic by racist elites wishing they could find some reason to make him black for stat purposes. Yeah, yeah, go on, dutifully scour the www for exceptions. 





> did he shoot him because he was getting his "head smashed into the pavement" or because he was reaching for GM's gun? I can't see both.


I can.





> GM's story is just a little too perfect...


Then he must be guilty.





> you know best friend is an ex-cop... dad is a retired judge... took criminal justice classes... self defense classes... mmm hmm.... think his story was coached just a little?


We don't know. We includes you and me and everyone else. Not knowing is no grounds for conviction, yet it may be grounds for acquittal, which is one of the basic tenets of criminal justice, even if only to some when convenient. 

Criminals walk every day because their juries 'do not know' the real story.





> I have been through NRA training and had the same C&C permit GM had. They tell you NEVER to confront people while carrying. NEVER!!!!!! The LAST thing you want to do is be close (within reach) of someone you perceive as a threat. That includes someone breaking into your house! You do not confront them! you place yourself in a defensive position and ANNOUNCE that your are armed and police have been called. That is a fucking break-in let alone approaching someone on the street that you "perceive" could be a threat!


IF what you say is true, Z approaching M doesn't make him a murderer.





> I think the jury will look at his injuries and determine his life was not in danger, also he says TM saw his gun. lets take a look.


I think the jury will ask to look between the prosecutor's legs to see the size of the balls that allowed him to go to trial on murder. Then, perhaps, they might realise they are all patsies in this racist trial.





> lets set the stage. GM on his back, TM is fully in his guard. How would he see or feel the gun? let alone reach under him with his left hand and grab it between the "grip and the hammer". when the grip is towards his spine. I think Pussy boy pulled it after he was punched in the nose and then the wrestling took place OR TM was letting him up and GZ pulled the gun and shot him, the shot could be from as far as 18" away. There are some serious holes in GZ story.


Now you're waffling, and trying to create grounds for conviction.





> I have grown bored with this....


ditto

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## barbaro

> does the evidence show he was being punched repeatedly? he has one punch to the nose... that's all I see.


Pount Hound,

Fair comment. I'd like to find out how many punches (if more than one) Zimm claimed he received.  And I'd like to see testimony, if possible, if more than one punch to the nose was verifiable.

On a related note to Zimm shooting him, if I was being straddled and punched once in the nose, I migh feel the need to shot in defense.  I do not know how many more punches I will receive, or how many more head slams I'll receive. 

Could Zimm predict that he would only get hit with on punh, and then the beating is over? 

That is not the way it works.  Fights are fast, and there is little time to think.  Mostly reactions based on instinct, IMO.

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## barbaro

> I have grown bored with this....some of you people think you can soot an unarmed person because he punches you.. y'all watch too many movies and more than *likely never had training to carry a concealed weapon*.


I doubt you're referring to me PH, because I don't think a punch justifies a shooting and have said so.

But I have had a Concealed Carry Weapons Permit and I have taken handgun shooting classes.  Also a defense class.

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## robuzo

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by barbaro
> ...


So he bears responsibility, at least that's my take. Not for murder, but reckless homicide, like a drunk who kills somebody with his car. I don't really care who screamed, who was a racist or how many punches were thrown. It didn't have to happen. People who arm themselves need to face the consequences when they fuck up, and Zimmerman fucked up and a kid died. Everything else is just details.

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## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by barbaro
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by robuzo
> ...


 How do you know Zimmerman fucked up? maybe Martin attacked him First , or you you have irrefutable proof he did'nt , A straight yes or no will suffice :Smile:

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## piwanoi

Reading this leads me to one conclusion , there is no way on gods Earth they can convict Z of Murder 2  :Smile: Articles: Ten Aha! Moments in the Zimmerman Trial to Date

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## Necron99

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by barbaro
> ...





That the guy is dead is evidence he fucked up.
He initiated a confrontation and someone died. You can't claim self defense if you start the trouble.
If the bit was still alive, he would probably be claiming self defense as he thought the creepy spic who was stalking him was going to rob him...

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## jamescollister

Do some of you even bother to read what evidence has been produced at the trial.
What  stalking, what did Zim initiate, if Zimmerman had not called the police  prior to the shooting it would have been seen as a street robbery,  mugging. 
Big black lad jumps fat little spic to steal his wallet.
Martin didn't know George was neighborhood watch, he didn't know Zim had called the police or that he was armed. 
Martin  knew only that a fat spic parked his car, looked at him. Martin then  hid in the shadows and jumped the driver of the car when he walked by.
Could  be me or you, I have carried a hand gun for a living and the only thing  I would have done differently is I would have put 2 into Martin to  start, as per my training. Jim

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## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by piwanoi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by robuzo
> ...


 Z started the trouble? are you saying that he Psychically  attacked Martin first?, how do you come to that conclusion ?

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## leemo

Doesn't matter who initiated contact, or whether verbal or visual, or with what intent. The gap between Z and M wasn't race but aspiration. One wanted to be a cop, while his Leftist liberators recruited the career criminal to latch onto their nipple of freebies and victimhood from where they knew he would see no need to reform. 

And Z represents the lower half of white middle class, employed at the lower end of the economic scale without enough money to move somewhere safer, but not steeped enough in liberal ideology to accept that they deserve to live in the surrounding violence because they are somehow the cause of it. 

This is what allowed the real villains, the Liberal elites, to place him in both categories, white and middle class, and then choose him to play the evil white racist on their culture and politics reality TV.

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## barbaro

> does the evidence show he was being punched repeatedly? he has one punch to the nose... that's all I see.


Here is an article showing the forensic expert testifying that Zim had one punch to the nose an 7 lacerations to the head when his head was slammed into the concrete.

This means multiple hits.

News from The Associated Press

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## RickThai

Apparently evidence has absolutely no impact on the opinions of those who want to hang Zimmerman.  How sad.

RickThai

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## harrybarracuda

Yet a prosecution medical expert said his injuries were "insignificant" and in her opinion the result of a single punch.

I bet Martin knocked him on his arse and he shot him out of anger and embarrassment.

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## RickThai

> Originally Posted by RickThai
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Pound Hound
> ...


You logic is about on par with your language.  

Any time anyone attacks someone, the other person has the right to defend himself however he chooses IMO.  People have suffered serious, permanent injuries and have actually died from a single punch (I once broke a guy's jaw in the first second of a street fight with a quick right.)

The fact that you state you want to attack Zimmerman (a man you've never met and who has done nothing to you personally), leads me to believe that you are the one with emotional issues.  People need to carry guns to protect themselves from the crazies who think it is okay to attack strangers.

Not long ago, a man accidentally nicked a guy's car as he was getting into his car in a parking lot.  The guy jumped out, started cursing, popped open his trunk and came after the man with a baseball bat.  The man, who was legally packing, pulled his gun and fired two shots, just as the other guy swung on him with the bat.  

The attacker fell and dropped the bat.  The attacker's wife then jumped out and picked up the bat and proceeded to try and hit the man.  After yelling at her to stop, the man wound up shooting her as well.

After a thorough investigation, both shootings were deemed "justifiable self-defense" (the male attacker died at the scene, although the woman survived).

I concur.  

BTW: Cops are trained to shoot real quick if a suspect tries to go for a gun.  Zimmerman had the right to do no less.

So bottom line, never attack someone unless you are prepared to go to the mat!

RickThai

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## raycarey

who cares?

i can't understand why this is such a big story.

let's be honest...

if zimmerman didn't kill martin, martin probably would have ended up dead or in jail sooner or later.  if zimmerman didn't go over line as a rent a cop in this situation, he would have sooner or later.

they're both douchebags in one way or another.

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## Rainfall

> Yet a prosecution medical expert said his injuries were "insignificant" and in her opinion the result of a single punch.
> 
> I bet Martin knocked him on his arse and he shot him out of anger and embarrassment.


Certainly, what else could the fat wetback do but reach for the gun? Guns have been invented to overcompensate for the shortcomings of the lazy and weak. Real men use their fists to settle a violent issue.

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## barbaro

OK.  

Day 10 of the trial.

The Defense has rested. Z obviously did not take the stand.

I believe this now goes to the jury. 

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...the-stand?lite

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## BigRed

> Guns have been invented to overcompensate for the shortcomings of the lazy and weak. Real men use their fists to settle a violent issue.


Guns have been invented by the intellectual elite to protect themselves from the bonehead jocks who think that size and strength equals superiority, despite being relatively weak and small compared to the top dogs in the food chain.

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## piwanoi

If justice is seen to be done Z will walk no two ways about it , its all here in the article which most won't bother to read as their minds are made up already Articles: Zimmerman's Pointless Trial

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## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> Yet a prosecution medical expert said his injuries were "insignificant" and in her opinion the result of a single punch.
> 
> I bet Martin knocked him on his arse and he shot him out of anger and embarrassment.
> 
> 
> Certainly, what else could the fat wetback do but reach for the gun? Guns have been invented to overcompensate for the shortcomings of the lazy and weak. Real men use their fists to settle a violent issue.


  Wet back?, he's a Peruvian FFS  :smiley laughing:   and if a couple of Mike Tyson look alikes were gonna mug you you'de settle them with your fists eh , yeah sure!.

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## Boon Mee

Yeah, well, it turns out that the ex-Sanford Police Chief says he was pressured to arrest Zim even though he had cleared him of any wrong doing. _ Imagine that!_ 

"The George Zimmerman investigation was hijacked in a number of ways  by outside forces, said the former police chief of Sanford, Florida.

Bill Lee, who testified Monday in Zimmermans second-degree murder  trial, told CNNs George Howell in an exclusive interview that he felt  pressure from city officials to arrest Zimmerman to placate the public  rather than as a matter of justice.

It was (relayed) to me that they just wanted an arrest. They didnt  care if it got dismissed later, he said. You dont do that."
It's Called The Al Sharpton Effect  ::chitown::

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## leemo

> OK.  
> 
> Day 10 of the trial.
> 
> The Defense has rested. Z obviously did not take the stand.
> 
> I believe this now goes to the jury. 
> 
> Defense rests in Zimmerman trial; Zimmerman doesn't take the stand - U.S. News


I bet the defence team are praying for more easy cases like this, beats having to struggle for a living.

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## leemo

> Yeah, well, it turns out that the ex-Sanford Police Chief says he was pressured to arrest Zim even though he had cleared him of any wrong doing. _ Imagine that!_ 
> 
> "The George Zimmerman investigation was hijacked in a number of ways  by outside forces, said the former police chief of Sanford, Florida.
> 
> Bill Lee, who testified Monday in Zimmermans second-degree murder  trial, told CNNs George Howell in an exclusive interview that he felt  pressure from city officials to arrest Zimmerman to placate the public  rather than as a matter of justice.
> 
> It was (relayed) to me that they just wanted an arrest. They didnt  care if it got dismissed later, he said. You dont do that."
> It's Called The Al Sharpton Effect


I think most on this board attested to that before he spoke, even though some accredited liberals instinctively deny that a "white" guy could possibly be innocent of murdering a black thug.

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## Boon Mee

Nothing more than the latest Obama Scandal 17 months old now being called *TrayvonGate.*

He used the DOJ and media manipulation to gin up charges of racism and it turns out the only racism involved is with little Trayvon calling Zim a 'creepy ass cracker'

"If I Had A Son He Would Look Just Like Trayvon"  :rofl:

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## Storekeeper

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> 
> Yeah, well, it turns out that the ex-Sanford Police Chief says he was pressured to arrest Zim even though he had cleared him of any wrong doing. _ Imagine that!_ 
> 
> "The George Zimmerman investigation was hijacked in a number of ways  by outside forces, said the former police chief of Sanford, Florida.
> 
> Bill Lee, who testified Monday in Zimmermans second-degree murder  trial, told CNNs George Howell in an exclusive interview that he felt  pressure from city officials to arrest Zimmerman to placate the public  rather than as a matter of justice.
> 
> ...


"Guns don't kill people ... People kill people" ...  :mid:

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## Cujo

> Originally Posted by leemo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> ...


"Guns don't kill people ... people with guns kill people" ...  :mid:

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## leemo

> Originally Posted by leemo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> ...


But looks like it's racism that kills blacks.

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## Cujo

> Originally Posted by Storekeeper
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by leemo
> ...


Obviously it's racist people with guns that kill people.

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## Necron99

I've always though it was bullets that did the actual killing...

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## Boon Mee

> I've always though it was bullets that did the actual killing...


Something to do with lead poisoning...

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## jamescollister

Looks like the prosecution is going to try for lessor charges to be considered. 
Defense is opposing lessor charges being thrown in, on the grounds that there defense is self defense and either  Zimmerman was defending himself or he wasn't'.

Judge will give a ruling on Friday, but would guess murder 2 is a no go, if on summation the prosecutor  argues for manslaughter and apparently aggravated assault. Jim

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## piwanoi

> Looks like the prosecution is going to try for lessor charges to be considered. 
> Defense is opposing lessor charges being thrown in, on the grounds that there defense is self defense and either  Zimmerman was defending himself or he wasn't'.
> 
> Judge will give a ruling on Friday, but would guess murder 2 is a no go, if on summation the prosecutor  argues for manslaughter and apparently aggravated assault. Jim


 Jim , if you read the link in my post #1677 you'll plainly see that a  Murder 2 Guilty verdict is highly improbable , mind you having followed the trial closely I was of that opinion right from the start , this trial reeks of racist /political undertones as sure as night follows day  :Smile:

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## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> Looks like the prosecution is going to try for lessor charges to be considered. 
> Defense is opposing lessor charges being thrown in, on the grounds that there defense is self defense and either  Zimmerman was defending himself or he wasn't'.
> 
> Judge will give a ruling on Friday, but would guess murder 2 is a no go, if on summation the prosecutor  argues for manslaughter and apparently aggravated assault. Jim
> 
> 
>  Jim , if you read the link in my post #1677 you'll plainly see that a  Murder 2 Guilty verdict is highly improbable , mind you having followed the trial closely I was of that opinion right from the start , this trial reeks of racist /political undertones as sure as night follows day


I never believed in his guilt from the first time I read his original police statement.
People involved in violent confrontations generally are is some amount of shock, they can't think up things on the run. They may remember things later, but at the time they are in survival mode.
Fight or fight, blood leaves less vital parts of the body and goes to the major muscle groups, peripheral vision goes and thinking goes over to reflex action. 
What he said at the scene is what he remembered at the time. 
Cops know that and came to the conclusion, no case. Jim

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## piwanoi

Jim read the link and watch the vid , this is total bollocks , the prosecution fear they can't nail Z on the Murder 2 charge so want to move the goal posts for a lesser charge, obviously this is political , personally I agree with Z,s council , all or fuck all :Smile: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/11...mmerman-trial/

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## RickThai

> who cares?
> 
> i can't understand why this is such a big story.
> 
> let's be honest...
> 
> if zimmerman didn't kill martin, martin probably would have ended up dead or in jail sooner or later.  if zimmerman didn't go over line as a rent a cop in this situation, he would have sooner or later.
> 
> they're both douchebags in one way or another.


The reason responsible people should care, is that an innocent man, who was found in the initial investigation to be totally justified in the self-defense shooting, was charged with murder 44 days later, not because of new evidence, but solely because the government was cowed by the continuing protests of an emotionally-charged, racially-motivated mob, whose existence only came into play because of the biased reporting of a liberal media who continually depicted Martin as an innocent, youngster by showing pictures of him that were several years out of date.

The fact that the legal system of the USA can be so blatantly influenced by the "mob rule" of the black horde needs to make every citizen of the US wonder about where this country is heading.

What is even more telling is the fact that some judges excused themselves from participating in the trial, because apparently they had too much integrity to be a party to such a "kangaroo court".

RickThai

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## RickThai

> .
> Real men use their fists to settle a violent issue.


Real men only fight for a valid reason.  If some dirtbag jumps you without warning, why get your hands dirty or risk injury.  Just shoot the dirtbag.  In the long run you'll be doing the world a favor.

Back when I was younger I used to fight quite a bit.  Almost all these fights were consensual.  Only a fool would use only his fists.  Knees, elbows, head butts, kicks, and biting where all considered "normal" tools to use in a fight. Because a fight wasn't considered a game.  If needed, and available, pipes, bottles, and anything else was considered a likely tool.

RickThai

----------


## RickThai

I'm guessing the prosecution (and the government) are concerned about the potential for violence (by the black horde) if Z is found innocent of all charges.  I'm sure they will try to offer some kind of deal for a guilty plea.  I hope Zimmerman has the courage to tell them to shove it.

Any way you look at it, Zimmerman's life is permanently screwed up.  No one will ever hire him, and he will constantly have to look over his shoulder for misguided attempts at "street justice".


So in one way, the black horde will have won after all.

RickThai

----------


## barbaro

> The reason responsible people should care, is that an innocent man, who was found in the initial investigation to be totally justified in the self-defense shooting, was charged with murder 44 days later, not because of new evidence, but solely because the government was cowed by the continuing protests of an emotionally-charged, racially-motivated mob, whose existence only came into play because of the biased reporting of a liberal media who continually depicted Martin as an innocent, youngster by showing pictures of him that were several years out of date.


Now, this is what I have begun to think. 

I only started following this case more closely about 10-12 days ago.

The above post nails it, IMO.

The charge 44 days later was not because of any evidence.  Martin was protrayed as an innocent kid on a "candy run," to quote one newspaper.

Then the gatherings of blacks wearing hoods - they obviously did not know more facts than anyone else did. 

The feds starting sniffing around the case.

No case to prosecute for 2nd degree murder, but they charged him anyway.

Now, I think Zimmermann out to walk.

I cannot see manslaughter, although in other cases people have been convicted under similar circumstances.

----------


## Mr Lick

*Florida braces for George Zimmerman trial verdict*

 

George Zimmerman is worried about his safety in the future, his lawyers say 

Florida officials have appealed for calm as the trial of a neighbourhood watchman who shot dead an unarmed black 17-year-old enters its final phase.

After 12 days of evidence, closing arguments have begun in the trial of George Zimmerman, 29, who denies the second-degree murder of Trayvon Martin.

A judge told jurors on Thursday that they could convict him of manslaughter, but ruled out another lower charge.

The accused says he shot the teenager in self-defence in 2012 near Orlando.

Police took six weeks to arrest Mr Zimmerman after the killing, which stoked racial tensions and spawned mass, peaceful protests.


'Don't be violent' 

Community leaders in the town of Sanford, where the shooting occurred, say they have been working to smooth tensions in case Mr Zimmerman is acquitted.
Just when I thought this case couldn't get any more bizarre” - Don West Defence lawyer  
"It's all right to be vocal, but we don't want to be violent," said Rev Walter Richardson, a pastor and chairman of Miami-Dade County's Community Relations Board, according to the Associated Press.

"We've already lost one soul and we don't want to lose any more."

Trayvon Martin was walking to the home of his father's fiancee from a convenience shop when the fatal confrontation ensued with the neighbourhood watch volunteer in a gated community on a rainy evening in February last year.

Before the prosecution began its closing argument on Thursday, a judge gave instructions to the sequestered jury of six women.

Seminole County Judge Debra Nelson said they could also convict Mr Zimmerman for manslaughter.

But she ruled out another lesser charge of third-degree murder, amid strong objections from the defence team.


Debate over screams 

Lawyers argued the move was a "trick" from the prosecution, because the lesser charge of third-degree murder would be based on the argument that Mr Zimmerman committed child abuse against Martin, who was a minor.

"Oh my God," defence lawyer Don West told the judge. "Just when I thought this case couldn't get any more bizarre, the state is seeking third-degree murder based on child abuse."

 
Trayvon Martin shown in an undated family photo


The defence said the jury should consider only a second-degree murder conviction or acquittal. 

Mr Zimmerman could face life in prison if he is convicted on the initial charge of murder.

If convicted for manslaughter he could face a maximum sentence of 30 years in jail.

Earlier in the trial the jury heard from both the defendant's parents, who testified that screams heard in the background of an emergency call were those of Mr Zimmerman.

But Martin's mother told the court she was "absolutely" certain it was her son crying for help.

Prosecutors had said during opening statements that Mr Zimmerman shot Martin "because he wanted to", after profiling the teenager.

The trial has reportedly taken an emotional toll on both the defendant and the victim's family.

Defence lawyers said Mr Zimmerman was very worried about the verdict and feared for his personal safety in the future.

----------


## barbaro

> [B] 
> 'Don't be violent' 
> 
> Community leaders in the town of Sanford, where the shooting occurred, say they have been working to smooth tensions in case Mr Zimmerman is acquitted.
> 
> "It's all right to be vocal, but we don't want to be violent," said Rev Walter Richardson, a pastor and chairman of Miami-Dade County's Community Relations Board, according to the Associated Press.
> 
> "We've already lost one soul and we don't want to lose any more."


Beyond stupid.  

This is not a 'race case.'  I do not consider this a "race case" even though obviously the media an black "community" leaders have made it out to be one. 

Also, in the above post. There is only a 6 person jury?  I am no legal aficionado or follow but I thought murder trials had 12 members on a jury?  Different by state? 

In addition, note the 'undated' photo of a younger Trayvon Martin.  Ridiculous.

----------


## Boon Mee

Ever hear of the term "Railroaded"?
After convincing the judge presiding over George  Zimmermans second-degree murder trial to allow jurors to consider  manslaughter, prosecutors sent the neighborhood watch volunteers defense lawyer into a rage by asking the judge to also include felony murder  based on child abuse   in the jury instructions. 

Judge Debra Nelson did not rule on the prosecutions request that jurors be able to consider the felony murder charge  based on child abuse. Under felony murder statutes, a defendant can be  charged with murder if he or she causes someones death while committing  a felony, in this case, according to the prosecution, child abuse. At  17, Martin was a minor when he was killed."

Prosecution paints Zimmerman as angry vigilante in closing arguments | Fox News




Not letting this goon kill him was child abuse?

It's a Kangaroo Court for sure... :mid:

----------


## Storekeeper

> is not a 'race case.


Unfortunately it is. And no matter the verdict I will always think George Zimmerman fukced up.

----------


## leemo

> Jim read the link and watch the vid , this is total bollocks , the prosecution fear they can't nail Z on the Murder 2 charge so want to move the goal posts for a lesser charge, obviously this is political , personally I agree with Z,s council , all or fuck allProsecution paints Zimmerman as angry vigilante in closing arguments | Fox News


They beg for credulity with no shame.

----------


## leemo

> I'm guessing the prosecution (and the government) are concerned about the potential for violence (by the black horde) if Z is found innocent of all charges.  I'm sure they will try to offer some kind of deal for a guilty plea.  I hope Zimmerman has the courage to tell them to shove it.
> 
> Any way you look at it, Zimmerman's life is permanently screwed up.  No one will ever hire him, and he will constantly have to look over his shoulder for misguided attempts at "street justice".
> 
> 
> So in one way, the black horde will have won after all.
> 
> RickThai


The black horde won before the trial, when he was charged. And they keep winning, because the honkeys are suitably softened up and easily intimidated. 

I wonder if the black guy in DC will comment on why his son is dead while his murderer is walking free.

----------


## leemo

Z should sue the authorities for laying false charges leading to a political trial. It would be nice to have their white-hating liberal ideals defended in public.

----------


## barbaro

> Originally Posted by barbaro
> 
> 
>  is not a 'race case.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately it is.


It is a "race case" for the media and the feds and the black "community leaders."

Did Z profile Martin?  Yes.  Solely based on his race?  We don't know.  




> And no matter the verdict I will always think George Zimmerman fukced up.


I think Zimmeman was foolish and reckless, as he initiated this as we've both noted and agreed.

It is the media and "community" leaders that are playing the race card in this, where it should not be played.

----------


## leemo

> Originally Posted by Storekeeper
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by barbaro
> ...


The trial wasn't just a blind shot at gold by destroying an innocent white man for murdering a black thug. It was government intervention to indoctrinate the few participants, and critically the millions of readers and viewers - the real target - through the fond Leftist tool of racist hysteria.

For decades the Left have weaned us on fear and guilt, so that people have become afraid of voicing their thoughts. Whites should feel guilty of slavery, of religious warfare and persecution, and of course wealth and progress through discovery and innovation, because these are recent, eclipse the mistakes of their ancestors, and in real time places them several notches higher on every achievement list than those who are legislated to be equal with a hefty legup. 

And that guilt, to the Left, should translate into a conviction when a half-white, albeit white, kills a black, albeit an invasive black thug, in order for justice to be seen to be done. Wait for Leftist outrage and finger pointing when Z walks, it will come, and other Leftists will ignore it. 

Then the Left will retreat to congratulate each other for demonstrating true justice, whilst disregarding the injuries caused to an innocent man that they sent to the arena. These parasites have lowered the morals of an entire civilisation. They know no shame, they rejoice when their compadres behave in the ugliest possible ways for the greater good, and they cheer when someone is dragged out of a crowd for their evil sacrifice, whilst denouncing those around him. 

But their numbers will always be bolstered by the elites who give easily seduced dopes something with which to identify, if only victim status.

----------


## harrybarracuda

If Zimmerman had shot a white guy, the left would be defending him, and people like Leemo would be demanding justice.

 :Smile:

----------


## Necron99

I think the only fact the jury need consider, as there is so little,actual,evidence is that if Zimmerman had followed the instructions from the 911 operator and all his training, the black kid would have slept in his bed that night.

----------


## piwanoi

One has to wonder being that there are hundreds if not thousands of shootings resulting in death in America every year as to just WHY this case is SO high profile , one also has to wonder as to just why it took the police over a month to charge Z with Murder when at the night of the incident he was questioned for 5 hours and then released without charge!!!http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin   any answers anyone?

----------


## piwanoi

> If Zimmerman had shot a white guy, the left would be defending him, and people like Leemo would be demanding justice.


 People like Leemo would be demanding Justice??, I would think its safe to say that every one should demand Justice , Irrespective of political persuasion ,Colour or creed :Smile:

----------


## Storekeeper

> Originally Posted by barbaro
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Storekeeper
> ...


Maybe to you but to me it has fuck all to do with commie pinko liberals and their self loathing ... To me it's more about the obnoxious right wing types suffering from little dick syndrome ... In other words it's about guns and the stupid things stupid people do with them and the stupid situations they get themselves into.

IMHO it's disgusting to see how mature, responsible adults are waiving Zimmerman of the obligation to exercise his adult critical thinking skills on this ... It's clear cut irresponsible behavior on the part of George Zimmerman. It really does sound like some posters believe Zimmerman deserves a pass on this simply because now there is one less "thug" on the streets now. No proof whatsoever the kid was a "thug" ... Either that or it doesn't take much for some to perceive another as a thug. How many tattoos does it take to be considered a thug by the way? 

If ... The truth were told by Zimmerman ... Even he would admit he wished he hadn't gotten out of his car. But he can't be totally honest because he doesn't want to go to jail. I have no doubt Zimmerman feels remorse and wishes he had done the right thing.

I hope none of you ever have a 17 year old son or grandson get killed because somebody decides they don't look like they belong in some neighborhood ... Most of us teach our kids to beware of strangers ... Because there are lots of sick, weirdos all over the place ... as far as I'm concerned Zimmerman could easily be mistaken for kinda sorta looking like some kind of perv.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> If Zimmerman had shot a white guy, the left would be defending him, and people like Leemo would be demanding justice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  People like Leemo would be demanding Justice??, I would think its safe to say that every one should demand Justice , Irrespective of political persuasion ,Colour or creed


Yeah, no shit Sherlock, so do I.

And Zimmerman is definitely not facing any in this trial - he's facing the US legal system.

----------


## piwanoi

This video just shows that "political pressure" was applied to the arresting Police Officer to bring a charge on Z who eventually lost his job ,as for the peaceful protests with Al Sharpton  and Jesse Jackson at the  helm :rofl: Ex-Police Chief: 'Political Pressure' Got Me Fired over Zimmerman Case ,

----------


## piwanoi

Just thought I would add to my post #1725  and the Video were it shows the White ex Chief of Police giving his side of the Story ,of course no one would guess in a million years that the new Chief of police is Black , you could not make it up  :smiley laughing:

----------


## leemo

> If Zimmerman had shot a white guy, the left would be defending him, and people like Leemo would be demanding justice.


I would like to see justice dispensed either way, but not easy to find any in a show trial driven by racist hysteria.

----------


## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by piwanoi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> ...


 I'm Sherlock? I would have it was the other way round, as you've solved this case already,which is actually based on flimsy race based evidence plus political pressure coming from the very top  ,and on behalf of certain TD members, supposition to high degree without nothing to back it up whatsoever .

----------


## leemo

Irony is that many of the elitist libs pretending to yearn for justice as a precursor to their perfect world, have either already convicted Z or will go through the rest of their miserable hate-filled lives insisting he is guilty. The trial becomes irrelevant. 

As for those believing of his innocence at all stages, from the immediate aftermath of the event to release, delayed arrest, charge and prosecution, they have every right to believe in the man's innocence because he hasn't been proved guilty. As of course the libs might agree, if pressed hard enough.

----------


## ltnt

> Irony is that many of the elitist libs pretending to yearn for justice as a precursor to their perfect world, have either already convicted Z or will go through the rest of their miserable hate-filled lives insisting he is guilty. The trial becomes irrelevant.


Shades of O.J.?

----------


## piwanoi

Interesting link about the "innocent young boy" and the prosecution! Articles: Why the Zimmerman Prosecutors Should Be Disbarred

----------


## Necron99

^ I don't think anyone disputes that the fat guy got a hiding.
The issue, and the whole basis for assigning guilt is what led to the confrontation.
As no one saw this, the only impartial evidence is the call in the lead up.
Now, I only listened once, so I may be wrong, but Zimmerman didnt call 911 to say a scary black guy was stalking him did he?

----------


## jamescollister

> ^ I don't think anyone disputes that the fat guy got a hiding.
> The issue, and the whole basis for assigning guilt is what led to the confrontation.
> As no one saw this, the only impartial evidence is the call in the lead up.
> Now, I only listened once, so I may be wrong, but Zimmerman didnt call 911 to say a scary black guy was stalking him did he?


Martin didn't call 911 to say a scary white guy was following him. 
There was no stalking or disregarding the dispatchers advice that he didn't need to follow. It was all BS put out before the trial and disproved. There was no evidence against Zim, he was the victim, who defended himself from a violent attacker. Jim

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by Necron99
> 
> 
> ^ I don't think anyone disputes that the fat guy got a hiding.
> The issue, and the whole basis for assigning guilt is what led to the confrontation.
> As no one saw this, the only impartial evidence is the call in the lead up.
> Now, I only listened once, so I may be wrong, but Zimmerman didnt call 911 to say a scary black guy was stalking him did he?
> 
> 
> ...


There was no stalking or disregarding the dispatchers advice? Bullshit, Jim.

That is the problem here, there is too much background noise swamping the real evidence.

In Zimmerman's own words he heard the dispatcher tell him not to follow Martin. He even claimed he was returning to his car. This is one of several versions he's come out with. He's also claimed he never heard the dispatcher say that. When people change their story so drastically, it's fairly obvious to me that they are lying through their teeth.

George Zimmerman Written Statement

The bottom line is that they knew he'd followed Martin and that this action alone is what led to his death.

However, that is not going to be enough to get a conviction, so Zimmerman will probably walk. However, he will also be expecting some street justice to be headed his way, not a particularly nice situation to be in. However, he made his fucking bed, so he can lie in it.

----------


## Necron99

^ it's enough for manslaughter.
Here or on appeal.

----------


## RickThai

Fortunately it only takes one juror with enough integrity to find Z innocent.  Still, it is indicative of the lack of real evidence that the DA had to pull a shady trick to add in a lessor charge in hopes of getting a conviction.  I guess he was "grasping at staws" (or else this was part of his plan from the beginning).

If convicted on manslaughter, hopefully an appeals court will overturn the ruling since the Defense did not have time to put together a defense for a manslaughter charge.

RickThai

----------


## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Necron99
> ...


Can't open the link so have no idea what it says, on a aircard in the jungle, bad net at the best of times.
What you are saying is Zimmerman should have been charged with murder 1, capital crime Florida. Plus all the cops, including the Police Chief and local prosecutor should be charged with conspiricy to prevert the course of justice.
Don't think some hick cops are that good or fast.
There is no evidence that Zim saw Martin after he left the car, hard to follow someone you can't see. 
Stalking is hunting and no one saw or alleged that Zim pulled his weapon before the fight.
If it hadn't hit the press big time, it would have been a non event. Jim

----------


## jamescollister

> ^ it's enough for manslaughter.
> Here or on appeal.


No double jeoperty, unless the Feds get involved as a race crime. That's it, innocent he walks. 
I would be willing to bet there is a line of civil litigation lawyers, waiting to sue the state and others for a host of things.
We will see next week I guess. Jim

----------


## harrybarracuda

> What you are saying is Zimmerman should have been charged with murder 1, capital crime Florida. Plus all the cops, including the Police Chief and local prosecutor should be charged with conspiricy to prevert the course of justice.


I'm saying nothing of the kind. And Zimmerman is no longer denying that he heard the dispatcher tell him not to follow Martin, he's just changed the subsequent events.

However, there is still no hard evidence to support either his or the prosecutions theory, so it will be hard to convict him of anything.




> If it hadn't hit the press big time, it would have been a non event. Jim


I think that's called "stating the fucking obvious" isn't it?

----------


## Mr Lick

*George Zimmerman defence makes closing argument*

 

George Zimmerman could face life in prison if convicted of murder


The defence has rested its case in the murder trial of a Florida neighbourhood watchman who shot dead an unarmed black teenager last year.

Twenty-nine-year-old George Zimmerman's lawyer said they had proven his "pure, unadulterated innocence" in the killing of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.

But prosecutors said he had told a series of lies about the shooting.

A jury of six women will now decide if he should be acquitted, or convicted of second-degree murder or manslaughter.

They must decide who was at fault in the fatal confrontation on the night of 26 February 2012 as Martin walked from a shop to the home of his father's fiancee in a gated community in Sanford, Florida.


Dramatic pause 

As the nation awaits the outcome, police and city leaders in southern Florida say they are ready for any mass protests or even civil unrest if Mr Zimmerman walks free.


David Willis BBC News, Sanford 

Not far from the Magic Kingdom a spectacle almost as riveting as any Walt Disney himself could have put together is playing out. A six-woman jury stands ready to decide the outcome of a case that has divided not only this community but much of America. 

The shooting dead of an unarmed black teenager has brought to the fore issues which had previously been simmering beneath the surface - such as racial profiling, gun control and equal justice under the law for African Americans and Hispanics. Blanket coverage of the three-week trial on cable television in the US has only served to heighten the debate. 

Police and community leaders have appealed for calm in advance of the verdict, but if George Zimmerman is acquitted there's every chance of a repeat of the protests which preceded his arrest, and the concern that unlike last time such demonstrations may not be so peaceful.


Defence lawyer Mark O'Mara told the sequestered jury on Friday that Mr Zimmerman's guilt had not been proven beyond reasonable doubt. He said the shooting was in self-defence.

The prosecution's case was built on a series of "could've beens" and "maybes", he added.

He said the defendant had shown no ill will, hate or spite during his encounter with Martin.

Mr O'Mara also challenged the jury to think about what Martin was doing for four minutes - after a friend on the phone told him to start running, but before he came face to face with Mr Zimmerman. 

The defence lawyer fell silent for four minutes, and said the teenager had spent that amount of time planning his attack instead of returning home.

Mr O'Mara said the aggressor was Martin, "the guy who decided not to go home when he had a chance to".

Summing up, he used a slideshow, an animation of the fight, and cardboard cut-outs of Mr Zimmerman and Martin.


'Every child's nightmare' 

In rebuttal, prosecutor John Guy argued that Mr Zimmerman had repeatedly lied in his statements about the shooting. 

"Isn't that every child's worst nightmare, to be followed on the way home in the dark by a stranger?" Mr Guy said. "Isn't that every child's worst fear?"

 

Trayvon Martin's parents have attended the trial every day 

Mr Zimmerman's account of how he grabbed his gun from his holster at his waist as the teenager straddled him is physically impossible, the prosecutor said.

"The defendant didn't shoot Trayvon Martin because he had to, he shot him because he wanted to," Mr Guy said. "That's the bottom line."

Judge Debra Nelson will next give the jurors their instructions before they retire to consider a verdict. They have heard 12 days of testimony by dozens of witnesses.

Without explicitly discussing race, the prosecution has suggested Mr Zimmerman assumed the African-American teenager, who was wearing a hooded sweatshirt as he walked in the rain, was up to no good.

But the defence says Martin punched their client, slammed his head into the pavement and reached for Mr Zimmerman's gun. 

 


Sanford's new police chief has been reaching out to the community

The accused, who was legally armed with a pistol, had been sitting in his vehicle on a dark street when he saw Martin. 

The accused telephoned police to report a suspicious person, then left his vehicle in apparent pursuit of the teenager.

Moments later, Martin was dead of a gunshot wound to the chest.

Mr Zimmerman, who identifies himself as Hispanic, could face life in prison if convicted on the murder charge. If found guilty of manslaughter, he could face up to 30 years in prison.

Last year, the case prompted mass, peaceful protests across the US, with critics questioning why it took police six weeks to arrest Mr Zimmerman.

www.bbc.co.uk

----------


## hazz

At the end of the day Zimmerman by choosing to ignore advice and follow this young lad inititaed a chain of events whih lead to the death of a this lad for nothing more than going to the shops at night.

This lad has had his life stolen from him. he will never have a family, his parents no grand children. They will have to live with this for ever. Zimmerman freely made his choice to initiate this chain of events, he should be held accountable for these choices and pay the price.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Mr Zimmerman, who identifies himself as Hispanic


Interesting, and probably for the trial.




> He was raised Catholic, in a family that his father has described as "multiracial;" his father is a white American of German descent and his mother is Peruvian with some black ancestry through her Afro-Peruvian maternal grandfather. Zimmerman's voter registration record lists him as Hispanic and *a registered Democrat.*


That last bit might have a few of our resident Republicans spluttering to explain their rabid defence of him.

 :bananaman:

----------


## barbaro

^Harry,

Zim identified himself as a Hispanic long before on this voter registration in Virginia.

He is, Hispanic. He is not "white Hispanic."

----------


## barbaro

> As the nation awaits the outcome, police and city leaders in southern Florida say they are* ready for any mass protests or even civil unrest* if Mr Zimmerman walks free.


I am starting to question the media's constant reference to "potential protest / violence / disturbance" if Zim is acquitted.

Yes, there may some acts, but I only heard about this from the media and in particular, Drudge.

It's like a movie thriller.  The end is near.  We don't know what the outcome will be.

I do not see this case as triggering large acts of stupidity.  This is not a cut-and-dry case.  There is no explosive video, like in the Rodney King beating.  

(But of course, I've been wrong before.)

----------


## Boon Mee

The Most Accurate Portrayal of The Zim Trial:

----------


## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by leemo
> 
> Irony is that many of the elitist libs pretending to yearn for justice as a precursor to their perfect world, have either already convicted Z or will go through the rest of their miserable hate-filled lives insisting he is guilty. The trial becomes irrelevant.
> 
> 
> Shades of O.J.?


 Could be ,the difference being that when OJ was found  innocent no one thought that there would be a white back lash on hearing the verdict.

----------


## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by Mr Lick
> 
> 
> Mr Zimmerman, who identifies himself as Hispanic
> 
> 
> Interesting, and probably for the trial.
> 
> 
> ...


 Maybe you would like to point out the "rabid defense" given by members  , you could also point out why it took 6 weeks to charge Z ,and why the  ex Chief of police said he was pressured from "above" to bring one , the guy has now lost his job and has been replaced by a black Chief of Police , no doubt just a sheer coincidence eh  :Smile:

----------


## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> What you are saying is Zimmerman should have been charged with murder 1, capital crime Florida. Plus all the cops, including the Police Chief and local prosecutor should be charged with conspiricy to prevert the course of justice.
> 
> 
> I'm saying nothing of the kind. And Zimmerman is no longer denying that he heard the dispatcher tell him not to follow Martin, he's just changed the subsequent events.
> 
> However, there is still no hard evidence to support either his or the prosecutions theory, so it will be hard to convict him of anything.
> ...


  Yeah but one has to ask why did it hit the press "big time" what was so special about this shooting when there are dozens every week  ? any ideas on that score? ,and why the huge black protest marches headed by black Civil rights leaders Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton  shouting for "Justice"   weeks before they had heard the evidence or the verdict ? by "Justice" they meant a "guilty verdict" !!

----------


## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by Mr Lick
> 
> 
> Mr Zimmerman, who identifies himself as Hispanic
> 
> 
> Interesting, and probably for the trial.
> 
> 
> ...


 What I wanna know is WTF has happened  to " every one must be presumed innocent until proven guilty"  , with you lefties its "every one is guilty until they are proven innocent"  and you write about"rabid republicans" get a grip FFS :smiley laughing:  http://www.un.org/cyberschoolbus/hum...aration/11.asp  and I do like the last wording in the link, "was it a fair and impartial trial?" :rofl:

----------


## leemo

> Fortunately it only takes one juror with enough integrity to find Z innocent.  Still, it is indicative of the lack of real evidence that the DA had to pull a shady trick to add in a lessor charge in hopes of getting a conviction.  I guess he was "grasping at staws" (or else this was part of his plan from the beginning).
> 
> If convicted on manslaughter, hopefully an appeals court will overturn the ruling since the Defense did not have time to put together a defense for a manslaughter charge.
> 
> RickThai


Makes political sense to coerce or 'guide' the jury into a manslaughter or other reduced charge, or a deal, even knowing it will be overturned on appeal. Main thing is to save face and hopefully some careers, though the real villains of the peace are well protected. 

Main thing is to keep the serial victims at home and out of racist shop windows. And by the time the racist appeal comes through the blacks will mostly have forgotten who what when why, and by then will anyway be goaded by their masters to agitate for some more current racist cause.

----------


## leemo

> At the end of the day Zimmerman by choosing to ignore advice and follow this young lad inititaed a chain of events whih lead to the death of a this lad for nothing more than going to the shops at night.
> 
> This lad has had his life stolen from him. he will never have a family, his parents no grand children. They will have to live with this for ever. Zimmerman freely made his choice to initiate this chain of events, he should be held accountable for these choices and pay the price.


When Z is acquitted of murder that means he is not guilty, as innocent as anyone else that was acquitted by a jury. Even some of TDs uber Lefties will admit to that. 

This makes Z the main victim, not the Martin family that bred and spawned a street thug that would have likely ended up dead or in jail big time anyway. 

And Z should sue the corrupt white collar liberal thugs that destroyed his life for political gain. I find them guilty, pre-trial, to confuse the chameleons that demand due process when it suits them, and yet convicted Z before the jury didn't.

----------


## leemo

> Originally Posted by Mr Lick
> 
> 
> Mr Zimmerman, who identifies himself as Hispanic
> 
> 
> Interesting, and probably for the trial.
> 
> 
> ...


Not sure what you mean. Does that make him 'white'? - or guilty, or innocent?

Btw, I think you will find the most rabid defence of Z was made by the prosecution.

----------


## leemo

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by jamescollister
> ...


Blacks are allowed to pronounce guilt on whites before a trial, that's common enough, but only racists claim Z is innocent because the prosecution have failed their corrupt masters in this show trial.

----------


## Storekeeper

> Originally Posted by hazz
> 
> 
> At the end of the day Zimmerman by choosing to ignore advice and follow this young lad inititaed a chain of events whih lead to the death of a this lad for nothing more than going to the shops at night.
> 
> This lad has had his life stolen from him. he will never have a family, his parents no grand children. They will have to live with this for ever. Zimmerman freely made his choice to initiate this chain of events, he should be held accountable for these choices and pay the price.
> 
> 
> When Z is acquitted of murder that means he is not guilty, as innocent as anyone else that was acquitted by a jury. Even some of TDs uber Lefties will admit to that. 
> ...


Since his juvenile record would have been sealed ... He could have ended up in the military and overseas killing ... "sand nig$&@s" ...

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by Necron99
> 
> 
> ^ I don't think anyone disputes that the fat guy got a hiding.
> The issue, and the whole basis for assigning guilt is what led to the confrontation.
> As no one saw this, the only impartial evidence is the call in the lead up.
> Now, I only listened once, so I may be wrong, but Zimmerman didnt call 911 to say a scary black guy was stalking him did he?
> 
> 
> ...


Can't green anybody so I'll just have to give you a +10.. He couldn't he was too busy talking phone sex with his GF and decided to turn it into a display of his machismo to impress and look what it got him?

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by leemo
> 
> Irony is that many of the elitist libs pretending to yearn for justice as a precursor to their perfect world, have either already convicted Z or will go through the rest of their miserable hate-filled lives insisting he is guilty. The trial becomes irrelevant.
> 
> 
> Shades of O.J.?


Except in that case a guilty "black" man was set free in favor of avoiding another LA riot  ::chitown::  ..

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by Necron99
> 
> 
> ^ it's enough for manslaughter.
> Here or on appeal.
> 
> 
> No double jeoperty, unless the Feds get involved as a race crime. That's it, innocent he walks. 
> I would be willing to bet there is a line of civil litigation lawyers, waiting to sue the state and others for a host of things.
> We will see next week I guess. Jim


True but not hate crime, violating his civil rights.. Also not double jeopardy which is attempting to prosecute for the same crime twice after an acquittal but instead not guilty on second degree not guilty in any case.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> What you are saying is Zimmerman should have been charged with murder 1, capital crime Florida. Plus all the cops, including the Police Chief and local prosecutor should be charged with conspiricy to prevert the course of justice.
> 
> 
> I'm saying nothing of the kind. And Zimmerman is no longer denying that he heard the dispatcher tell him not to follow Martin, he's just changed the subsequent events.
> 
> However, there is still no hard evidence to support either his or the prosecutions theory, so it will be hard to convict him of anything.
> ...


You just don't get it, what the civilian dispatcher suggested to him is irrelevant in a free society, we're not speaking about GB here.. He was watch captain in HIS community which was not the neighborhood of the assailant.. Which BTW by Florida statute on self defense he does not even have to have any injuries to justify shooting someone, just the mere reasonable concern for his life.. Having your head smashed into concrete even once let alone numerous times goes way beyond that reasonable concern.

It's not lost on me that no one has answered the question I posed previously regarding the fact that after more then 40 311 calls and all of the police responses, this man was never categorized as a nutter and on the contrary was respected by the responding police officers? 

It's also a fact that to those who continue to throw around the prosecutions thin reference to his "police wannabe" aspirations he turned down all the trimmings offered for that position like a community watch vehicle with official police lettering, lights, uniforms etc..

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by ltnt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by leemo
> ...


Rubbish. He was set free because the defence did a great job of dismantling a completely flawed prosecution case. It's the system itself that's at fault.

As shown by the massive award against him in the civil trial.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> At the end of the day Zimmerman by choosing to ignore advice and follow this young lad inititaed a chain of events whih lead to the death of a this lad for nothing more than going to the shops at night.
> 
> *This lad has had his life stolen from him. he will never have a family, his parents no grand children. They will have to live with this for ever.* Zimmerman freely made his choice to initiate this chain of events, he should be held accountable for these choices and pay the price.


There is an upside to this case after all.....

JFYI Z is the one who has to live with this forever, in terms of Martins parents there's no escaping the end result of improper parenting, responsibility is a tough pill to swallow for those who fail at it by not taking it seriously...

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by ltnt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by leemo
> ...


Nail.......................................Head...  .............. Can't green so have to throw out +10.
It has sparked off some already as an innocent witness on behalf of Z that worked for a local company came to work to find all of the companies tires slashed in the parking lot yesterday. Don't recall any such things happening with OJ's trail and this trial hasn't even a verdict yet, the witness just did the right thing and testified on Z's behalf  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): ..

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by ltnt
> ...


Yes of course it is.. So by that logic no matter the result of this case either way the verdict will be irrelevant? Liberal catch 22? I agree as it would have worked as designed as Z should not have been charged in the first place as was the investigators intention barring unwarranted outside interference.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by Mr Lick
> 
> 
> As the nation awaits the outcome, police and city leaders in southern Florida say they are* ready for any mass protests or even civil unrest* if Mr Zimmerman walks free.
> 
> 
> I am starting to question the media's constant reference to "potential protest / violence / disturbance" if Zim is acquitted.
> 
> Yes, there may some acts, but I only heard about this from the media and in particular, Drudge.
> ...


Yep almost seems they are hoping for something sensational to report and will be disappointed if it becomes a slow news day  ::chitown:: ..

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Mr Lick
> ...


Stop that!! Entirely too much logic being used for this crowd of blinded defenders..

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by piwanoi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> ...


Huh? White police chief drags heels over investigation into murder of a black man. Gets replaced. Bleats about it.

That's a real fucking surprise, that one.

 :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

Just watching the highlights of the trial on Fox. Jesus, it's like a reality show.

"One of our jurors will be leaving the house tonight. Shamila, you were doing your make up in the jury room. It's time to collect your bags and leave the show".

And the defence lawyers and that dummy....

 :rofl:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Yep almost seems they are hoping for something sensational to report and will be disappointed if it becomes a slow news day ..


Fox are doing 24/7, Hannity even had his own mock courtroom.

And they are really taking shots at the judge just because she kept telling the defense lawyers to do what they were told. Perhaps they are going for a mistrial just in case.

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by piwanoi
> ...


Exactly... You obviously have no real experience or sense of modern Florida, this ain't LA and hasn't been for decades, the police chief's race had naught to do with the "heel dragging", there was no case which is their job to determine initially before bringing it to the state attorney for final determination and prosecution and JFYI it wasn't the chief's responsibility it was the investigators under him. Normally (key reference) unlike on TV, he'd not have a single thing to do with any case being investigated, the chief is primarily administrative being reported to directly only when absolutely necessary..

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## Storekeeper

Seems this witness didn't see the same thing as John Good:

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## Storekeeper

Guess the kid Trayvon was fetching the Skittles for was a thug too ...

----------


## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by piwanoi
> ...


 At the night of the incident Z was grilled for 5 hours and photographs taken of his injuries and at the scene of the shooting ,the police Chief decided in agreement  with his police colleagues  that there was no charge to answer for , of course if you had read all the links instead of completely ignoring them you may possibly be a little wiser ,and if you have evidence of "foot dragging" why not produce a link .

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## Storekeeper

This fiction is probably the closest we'll ever get to the truth:

----------


## Storekeeper

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> ...


Take a gander at the link in post 169 ... why wasn't she interviewed immediately instead of being left a piece of paper to turn in a statement at a later date?

Head injuries? What a crock of bollox ... wipe away the single trails of dried blood and you have nothing but superficial scratches ...

And it's not much of a stretch really to see the local Popo put very little effort into conducting a thorough investigation. Talk nice and respectful like and in the lingo of the cops and they love it. Authority figures eat that shit up ...

----------


## harrybarracuda

> At the night of the incident Z was grilled for 5 hours and photographs taken of his injuries and at the scene of the shooting ,the police Chief decided in agreement  with his police colleagues  that there was no charge to answer for , of course if you had read all the links instead of completely ignoring them you may possibly be a little wiser ,and if you have evidence of "foot dragging" why not produce a link .


Er...




> you could also point out why it took 6 weeks to charge Z


If an Hispanic male had shot a white kid I doubt it would have taken six weeks.

Then again, if it had been a white kid, I doubt Zimmerman would have followed him or referred to his ilk as "Fucking punks"?

 :mid:

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## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by piwanoi
> ...


 Maybe , just maybe you could take 5 minutes of your time and watch this video , and then tell me just how you formed your opinion that the Ex Police Chief was "heel dragging" in the investigation  :Smile: Ex-Police Chief: 'Political Pressure' Got Me Fired over Zimmerman Case

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## FloridaBorn

> Seems this witness didn't see the same thing as John Good:


Good "eye" witness, she can't even identify him even after the fact except for what she's seen in the media, everything else she says is further corroboration of Z's story  :Doh:  .

I have to say though she does have a certain sensuality about her that is rather appealing  :bananasexy: .

----------


## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by piwanoi
> 
> 
> At the night of the incident Z was grilled for 5 hours and photographs taken of his injuries and at the scene of the shooting ,the police Chief decided in agreement  with his police colleagues  that there was no charge to answer for , of course if you had read all the links instead of completely ignoring them you may possibly be a little wiser ,and if you have evidence of "foot dragging" why not produce a link .
> 
> 
> Er...
> 
> 
> ...


 If, I doubt , I doubt , the only fact you've produced is Z called him a fucking punk ,is that some how a crime ?, if so 95% of TD members would now be serving long terms  :smiley laughing:

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## leemo

> This fiction is probably the closest we'll ever get to the truth:


Don't need to watch it. The black kid says please sir I'm lost would you be so kind as to direct me to the nearest church and the white guy shoots him.

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## Storekeeper

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> ...


I watched it for you. And even though it's mentioned at the very beginning of the interview when the police chief states one of the investigators suggested it was *manslaughter* ... he believed it wasn't and there was,"nothing that GZ said to contradict that" ... 

Case was rightfully taken over by the state attorney, as it should be, when the police department failed to take the proper actions.

Honestly man the police chief really didn't address very well why a serious case like this wasn't more thoroughly investigated.

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## jamescollister

Slightly away from the incident, read some stuff from the Washington Post [don't know if they were anti or pro Zim ] but they are now anti prosecution.
Didn't go so far as to say they were lying, but misrepresenting facts and changed the words of one of the witnesses during summation.

Here an interview from a guy you would think knows hie stuff.
Harvard Law professor Alan Dershowitz says the prosecutors in the George  Zimmerman murder trial should be charged with "prosecutorial  misconduct" for suggesting the defendant planned the fatal shooting of  Trayvon Martin.

"That is something no prosecutor should be allowed to get away with … to  make up a story from whole cloth," Dershowitz told "The Steve Malzberg  Show" on Newsmax TV.

"These prosecutors should be disbarred. They have acted absolutely irresponsibly in an utterly un-American fashion."

Zimmerman, a 29-year-old neighborhood watch volunteer, is charged with  gunning down Martin, 17, as the two fought following a confrontation in  the gated Sanford, Fla., community where Zimmerman lives — an act the  defendant said was in self-defense.

In the prosecution's final argument on Friday, lawyer John Guy said  Zimmerman deliberately followed Martin and "shot him because he wanted  to."

Dershowitz called Guy's statement "such speculation. How does he get  into the mind of Zimmerman? He hasn't cross-examined him, he hasn't met  him.

"To ask the jury to believe that is to ask the jury to convict based on  complete and utter speculation and that's not the way the law operates."

A day earlier, prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda said Zimmerman — whom he  labeled a "wannabe cop" — "followed" and "tracked" Martin after  profiling him as a criminal.

Dershowitz said not only should Zimmerman have not been charged with  second-degree murder, but prosecutors should not have pushed to have  manslaughter and child abuse added to the list of possible jury  verdicts.

"[It's] utterly irresponsible. … The idea that the prosecution can try  the case on a murder theory and then, at the last minute, substitute  manslaughter, even though it seems to be permitted generally under  Florida law — it's a big mistake to allow it in a case like this,” he  said.

"And then the very idea of even suggesting child abuse in a case like this is so irresponsible."

Dershowitz praised the closing argument of defense lawyer Mark O'Mara.

"He did the right thing by being methodical and factual because this is a  case where the prosecution's case is all emotion and the defense case  is all factual," the famed civil-rights lawyer said.

"Emotionally, obviously everybody can identify with a young, unarmed  17-year-old who ends up dead, and emotionally, as President [Barack]  Obama said, he's all of our children."

Dershowitz — whose clients have included Claus von Bulow, Mike Tyson,  Patricia Hearst, and former televangelist Jim Bakker — said the case has  "reasonable doubt" written all over it.

"Nobody knows who started the initial physical encounter, who threw the  first blow — and if you don't know that you have to have a reasonable  doubt," he said.

"Nobody knows for sure who screamed, 'Help me, help me.' You have to  have a reasonable doubt about that. Nobody knows for sure who was on top  and who was on bottom, though the overwhelming forensic evidence  suggests that Zimmerman was on the bottom having his head banged by a  younger, stronger man. You have to have reasonable doubt there."

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## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by piwanoi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> ...


He had more than enough injuries to warrant self defense according to the statutes of Florida, especially since the statute requires none only a mere fear for ones life and safety..

It is simply mind boggling the way his injuries are minimized, not a forensic expert in the group. I'd even venture to say that not even well versed in medical or anatomy not considering the shape of the skull the uneven surfaces of the bone structure, contact points or position of the head while bleeding and then when you're having your head bashed into the concrete at what point do you fear for your life? I bang my head all the time as I know other people do to and it is always a very jarring and disorientating occurrence and never once has it opened up a laceration on my scalp. Through sports I've also suffered concussions and none of those opened up lacerations either.

For me the first swing at me or attempted head bashing displays intent to do me serious harm, let alone a single successful impact would be more than enough feeling it would eventually cause unconsciousness and possibly worse sparking whatever recourse I had at hand to defend myself, it surely isn't intended to endear me to em so at that point you get back everything I have at my disposal to defend myself..

And, truth be known and honestly stated, unless a complete coward, those here saying otherwise would react the very same way in a similar circumstance.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Slightly away from the incident, read some stuff from the Washington Post [don't know if they were anti or pro Zim ] but they are now anti prosecution.
> Didn't go so far as to say they were lying, but misrepresenting facts and changed the words of one of the witnesses during summation.
> 
> Here an interview from a guy you would think knows hie stuff.
> Harvard Law professor Alan Dershowitz says the prosecutors in the George  Zimmerman murder trial should be charged with "prosecutorial  misconduct" for suggesting the defendant planned the fatal shooting of  Trayvon Martin.
> 
> "That is something no prosecutor should be allowed to get away with  to  make up a story from whole cloth," Dershowitz told "The Steve Malzberg  Show" on Newsmax TV.
> 
> "These prosecutors should be disbarred. They have acted absolutely irresponsibly in an utterly un-American fashion."
> ...


Dershowitz is from Florida too, not originally, but now resides here and has practices here. I'm telling you, it's the black socks all over again  ::chitown::  but for the right reasons in this case..

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## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by piwanoi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> ...


 Failed to take the"proper actions"? they grilled Z for 5 hours FFS, and proper actions according to who? , Jesse Jackon, Al Sharpton and the black lynch mob , are you saying that every case the police fail to charge some one its taken over by the state Attorney ?, as the Chief of Police plainly said  it was pressure from "above" why the case was taken away from him ,  "If I had a son he'd be just like Trayvon"  :rofl: the whole fucking thing stinks to high heaven.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by Storekeeper
> 
> 
> This fiction is probably the closest we'll ever get to the truth:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't need to watch it. The black kid says please sir I'm lost would you be so kind as to direct me to the nearest church and the white guy shoots him.


It's HISPANIC guy Leemo, not white.

 :Smile:

----------


## Storekeeper

> Originally Posted by Storekeeper
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by piwanoi
> ...


What is simply mind boggling is how people come to the conclusion killing Trayvon Martin was justified. The only people who say otherwise are the cowards like George Zimmerman who stalked and killed an unarmed kid who was returning to the very same house he left from and was less than 70 yards away when he got cap'd by some dumb ass who could easily have been mistaken for a stalker ... some little fat pudgy dude who could have been trolling for juvenile black boys ... too damn bad we'll never get to hear the kid's side of the story.

You've shown you're very good at showing empathy for George Zimmerman ... try for a moment to imagine yourself as a young 17 year old boy diddy bopping down the road ... minding his own business ... and suddenly you notice you are being followed by some "creepy ass cracker" in an unmarked vehicle. If you can't possibly imagine that Trayvon Martin could have possibly viewed George Zimmerman as a potential threat ... I have no idea what to think.

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## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Storekeeper
> ...


Good God (if there is one) what a skewed perspective on life you have..

If he seemed to be a threat the prudent thing to do was get off the F'ing phone with his BJ buddy and call the police while hightailing it out of the neighborhood he didn't live in. Or conversely he could have just spoken politely and respectfully to a concerned resident and watch captain who merely questioned his presence and purpose for being there and waited for the police himself after notifying Z they were on their way. Did he do any of that or does he not have responsibility for his own life? Maybe if he knew Florida law as well as Z or wasn't so full of himself and his own MMA style he would have understood who was in the right from the beginning and would have simply cooperated better and would still be alive to enjoy his skittles.....









Well then again maybe not.................  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Instead he instigated a fight and assaulted the wrong person and now multiple peoples lives are forever altered and not for the better, while he knows no different..

In closing I'd like to mention that I was 17 once and honestly NEVER that stupid which is why I made it as far as I have without anything remotely close to that serious in my life..

Personally even the mere suggestion that he noticed Z following him from a distance is suspicious in and of itself if you want to get down to conjecture..

I've come across a lot of possible threats in my life and apparently handled it differently as I've never had a physical confrontation out of it so I think I have put myself in his place, only difference, I was smart enough to live & speak about it..

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## S Landreth

> NEVER that stupid which is why I made it as far as I have


Where are you again? Central Floridah, pushing paper?

Oh and nice to see you posting again during FOX commercial breaks  :Smile: 
_________

looks like it might be a manslaughter conviction

George Zimmerman trial: Deliberations continue - OrlandoSentinel.com

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## Boon Mee

> looks like it might be a manslaughter conviction


Gotta keep them brothers & sisters from rioting and burning the place down somehow...

----------


## piwanoi

^ Ain't that why Zimmermans on trial in the first place , to placate the  Brothers?

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## Boon Mee

> ^ Ain't that why Zimmermans on trial in the first place , to placate the  Brothers?


They'll never be placated until every creepy-ass cracker is put down.

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## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by piwanoi
> 
> 
> ^ Ain't that why Zimmermans on trial in the first place , to placate the  Brothers?
> 
> 
> They'll never be placated until every creepy-ass cracker is put down.


Even if they're not creepy ass'd but merely have the audacity to look in their direction  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): ..

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridahBorn
> 
> 
> NEVER that stupid which is why I made it as far as I have
> 
> 
> Where are you again? Central Floridah, pushing paper?
> 
> Oh and nice to see you posting again during FOX commercial breaks 
> ...


Yes pushing paper, where are you?....






Masturbating online to gay porn or is this trial and the prospect of an innocent man being convicted enough of a stimulant for you to suffice?  ::chitown::  

BTW I don't think it's an accident that you seem to know far more about Fox news and schedules then I do..

----------


## bsnub

Zimmerman found not guilty.

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## FloridaBorn

> Zimmerman found not guilty.


 :sexy:  :bananaman:  :Unitedstates:  :rock_dj:  :party43:  Time to party, shutter the windows I guess, lock down the house and shut in the children. 

Ironically I'm not that far from Disney and they set off fireworks every night at 10:00 and that happens to be right on cue as I hear them going off right now..

Concern for the jurors in my mind now, hope they and their families will find peace and safety..

Very generic press conference by the prosecutors, sounds very much like the result they were quietly hoping for..

----------


## koman

> Zimmerman found not guilty.


Just proves that today in American there are at least six smart women with some sense of justice.....

If Zimmerman had been found guilty it would be a disgrace....all the real evidence pointed to the accuracy and truth in his version of the event, and all the hype, manipulation and interference could not change that in the end.   

Good job by the defense and the jury......

Standby for sixty pages of whinging and crying foul from the TD leftist hoards...... :rofl:

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## Boon Mee

Common sense prevailed.

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## FloridaBorn

> Common sense prevailed.


Well, given the jury, that in and of itself is it's own unheralded story  :Sorry1: .. Good for them  :bananaman:  ..

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## piwanoi

IMHO the not guilty verdict is a victory for real Justice ,simply because you cannot convict any one on speculation ,you have to bring solid proof to bear and this was not forthcoming , this high profile trial was both political and racial and in that only one decision could be made as to Zimmermans guilt or innocence and in this case it was the right one ,whether the black community will accept it ,when Sharpton and Co start banging the drums remains to be seen  :Smile:

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## Boon Mee

> Standby for sixty pages of whinging and crying foul from the TD leftist hoards......


I predict that most of them will simply slink off to lick their wounds and fight another day - ineffectively I may add. :Very Happy:

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## harrybarracuda

People, People, come on, this is America here, we need to look at the important ramifications of this decision:

(1) How much do Zimmerman's lawyers jack up their rates?
(2) Which network gets the Zimmerman interview?
(3) Mini-series or Movie?
(4) How many octaves does Sharpton's voice rise?

 :mid: 


Added: I forgot:

(5) Who plays Zimmerman in the mini-series/movie?

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## leemo

> Zimmerman found not guilty.


Looks like the jury declined to sacrifice this patsy to the racist white-haters, or for that matter the rest of Obama' degenerates. 

Doesn't clear the sheet, though, because the trial itself was a travesty of justice and common decency.

Dead Man Walking!

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## bsnub

I dont care about the politics of it all I will leave that to the rest of you. I was unsure about whether Zimmerman was guilty or innocent until the last week or so. Then I began to realize that he was innocent. It wasn't the media or boon mee's pictures posted on the forum that convinced me it was the testimony and evidence that I watched presented in the court. It was self defense. 

So the real question now is when and where do the riots start first.  :Smile:

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## taxexile

the right verdict. 
common sense prevails.

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## piwanoi

Post #1800 ,Answer to question # 2 , Fox News, who else could it be!! :Smile:

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## koman

> I dont care about the politics of it all I will leave that to the rest of you. I was unsure about whether Zimmerman was guilty or innocent until the last week or so. Then I began to realize that he was innocent. It wasn't the media or boon mee's pictures posted on the forum that convinced me it was the testimony and evidence that I watched presented in the court. It was self defense. 
> 
> So the real question now is when and where do the riots start first.



You'r starting to come along nicely Bsnub......by God we'll make a conservative out of you yet.... we just have to get you over that "corporatist" nonsense and you'll be on your way..... :Smile:

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## ltnt

Harry, you left out the "Civil Suit," by Zimmerman against the police, the MSM, and the Federal Government.

Got to be "Big Bucks," in that lawsuit.

----------


## barbaro

I do not think Zim was guilty of 2nd murder.

That said, there is nothing to be happy about.

Sad incident, and and absolutely needless incident.

----------


## mao say dung

> by God we'll make a conservative out of you yet


Not so long as he forms his opinions based on information rather than pig-farmer dumb "principles" like racism.

----------


## barbaro

And to add this: 
*
IT director who alleged evidence withheld from Zimmerman defense fired*
By Tom Winter and Daniel Arkin, NBC News

*An employee of the Office of the State Attorney in Jacksonville, Fla., who testified that prosecutors withheld evidence from George Zimmerman’s defense team has been fired, his lawyer told NBC News.*

Ben Kruidbos, who testified for the defense before the trial began and identified himself as a "whistleblower," alleged that his former employer concealed or was slow to deliver discovery information obtained from Trayvon Martin’s cell phone – including pictures of a hand holding a gun and a gun on a bed.

Zimmerman’s defense team has filed a motion of judicial sanctions against state prosecutors, alleging discovery violations. The state has denied these violations.

Breaking News & Top Stories - World News, US & Local | NBC News

----------


## koman

> I do not think Zim was guilty of 2nd murder.
> 
> That said, there is nothing to be happy about.
> 
> Sad incident, and and absolutely needless incident.



Good comment and spot on.

  It was an unfortunate incident which should have/could have been prevented if Zimmerman had not bothered to follow Martin to see what he was "up to" and if Martin had just kept walking home instead of turning back to confront Zimmerman.

Accusations of "stalking" and "racially profiling" simply did not stand up to serious scrutiny and the waffling and story changing by Martins family members did nothing to add credibility to any of it. 

  Nobody wants to see kids killed...innocent or otherwise, but it would not be justice to sacrifice an inept neighborhood watchman who fired a shot under in self defence,  just to appease the howling mob of race baiters and political opportunists who hopped on this bandwagon right from the start.

    In the end the jury had to accept the physical and forensic evidence which suggests very strongly that Zimmerman was attacked by Martin and not the other way about.   The attack provoked a retaliation which resulted in a dead 17 year old and a political football for the likes of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson ....not to mention the POTUS....who showed a serious lack of judgement by even commenting on the case.  

All Zimmerman can really be accused of is some poor judgement...which is hardly a criminal offence.     A political show trial if ever there was one.    The conduct of the media, black activist leaders, the POTUS and even the judge were all a disgrace.....but Zimmer was fortunate to have a sensible jury and a good lawyer.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Harry, you left out the "Civil Suit," by Zimmerman against the police, the MSM, and the Federal Government.
> 
> Got to be "Big Bucks," in that lawsuit.


Unfortunately he can't sue the legal system if charges are brought in good faith and the Feds have not been involved to this point yet.

I wonder and seriously hope that is not the next chapter in that they (the Feds) attempt to bring civil rights violations against him and he is not facing a wrongful death civil suit by the family based on his following Trayvon & they may have sufficient cause for this action and winning too, but he can sue the outside, primary instigators of his trial for their parts and defamation of his character and that's where I'd start..

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by barbaro
> 
> 
> I do not think Zim was guilty of 2nd murder.
> 
> That said, there is nothing to be happy about.
> 
> Sad incident, and and absolutely needless incident.
> 
> ...


Can't green yet... +10.. and have one of these..  :sexy:

----------


## socal

:rock_dj:  :rock_dj:  :rock_dj: 
Just like I said a few hundred posts ago. Innocent 

The fucktard who wrote the headline of this thread should be shot.

----------


## jamescollister

Guess now the witch hunt will begin, heads will roll, blame for the loss will be a portioned.
Not the big guys of course, think the judge is gone, prosecution team may be looking for new jobs. Jim

----------


## grasshopper

Barracuda! Dat's a nasty crack. I put forward Ashton Agar for the role of the banger, right? Fits the bill. Tall, can wear a hoody and instant heart appeal.
Just a few questions for Floridaborn though, re post 1786:
1. Read your comments with interest Fb. Can we assume that you werent black when aged 17 years and therefore not dumb by definition?
2. If you were unfortunate enough to be dumb and black at 17 - would you have been in a gated white community, boy?
3. If you was dumb enough - would you then be smart enough to get off de phone to de bro and call the fuzz because a politely speaking little cracker mofo was  enquiring as to your reasons for being in dis community heah?
4. Would not a decision to hightail it outta there be an indication of some guilt on yore part? Maybe dat provoke de wrong reaction from the polite white guy who was packing?
5. As a dumb ass black 17 year old - would you then be familiar with the laws of the fine State of Floridee? Or, for that matter, as a white 17 year old vested with intelligence by birth alone?
6. How you know de bro was so full of shit himself. You see it run out of the hole when de daylight was let in?

Just asking these questions, like? Must concede that as a white 17 year old growing up I didnt have the advantages that you obviously possessed in Florida birthing. Maybe an offshoot of the Ponce de Leon elixir of life thing there?

Must admit though the jury had no choice but to acquit on the charge brought.


6.

----------


## leemo

> Just like I said a few hundred posts ago. Innocent 
> 
> The fucktard who wrote the headline of this thread should be shot.







> Then the man stalked him and shot the teen as he begged for help..


Not shot, ridiculed... :rofl:

----------


## leemo

> Guess now the witch hunt will begin, heads will roll, blame for the loss will be a portioned.
> Not the big guys of course, think the judge is gone, prosecution team may be looking for new jobs. Jim


You're assuming a sane world. 

My guess is a head or two will roll, those at the top will retire with a cup of wine to analyse what their underlings could've done more effectively, and their most blindly loyal footsoldiers will be quietly promoted. Z is a marked man even though he might receive substantial sums of money from official settlements and media, but this will also disqualify him from free legal assistance in his defence against of the Martin family civil suit, which will be supported and funded and promoted by unlimited government and black/Leftist troughs, and in which the burden of proof is decided on probability with emotions and political expedience often enjoying heavier weight than hard facts. 

In short, he's just overcome the first salvo in a long and heavily mismatched war of attrition. So much for justice.

----------


## Storekeeper

> Originally Posted by bsnub
> 
> 
> Zimmerman found not guilty.
> 
> 
>  Time to party, shutter the windows I guess, lock down the house and shut in the children. 
> 
> Ironically I'm not that far from Disney and they set off fireworks every night at 10:00 and that happens to be right on cue as I hear them going off right now..
> ...


Hopefully there will be no problems for the jurors. They made their decision and it's final. I don't have to agree with it but I can respect it. They sat there for hours and heard all the evidence ... First hand ... So be it ...  :France:

----------


## harrybarracuda

Well the money will roll in for Zimmerman, but by the same token he's going to need some personal protection.

How about a couple of big Afro-Americans?

That would really rub it in.

----------


## larvidchr

> "In the end the jury had to accept the physical and forensic evidence 
> 
>  The attack provoked a retaliation which resulted in a dead 17 year old and a political football for the likes of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson ....not to mention the POTUS....who showed a serious lack of judgement by even commenting on the case.  
> 
> All Zimmerman can really be accused of is some poor judgement...which is hardly a criminal offence.     A political show trial if ever there was one.    The conduct of the media, black activist leaders, the POTUS and even the judge were all a disgrace....."


Well the Sharptons, the Jacksons, the NAACP, the sick majority liberal media spinners who could only find old child photos of Trayvon :mid:  and throughout tried desperately to influence public opinion and the outcome of this trial.

And Obama and his administration who used all their political and Government machinery to force a trial through, it is time for some "soul" searching dumb-asses, You have now made Zimmerman the most innocent Man in the US :rofl: .

You lot tried it all, officials where fired, heavy political pressure brought to bear, dirty tricks, manipulation of the truth etc etc........ and You miserably failed to achieve your devious fraudulent goal. You fucking sick lot are the ones fuelling sustaining and creating racial tension where none need to be.

Trayvon is now by Your Trial and Jury :rofl: .... the brainnumb wannabe hardman "nigga" gangsta, who was dressed in all the trappings profiling him as such at a glance, and with an unhinged behaviour to match, his violent MMA style assault on a fellow innocent citizen ended up costing him his life,....... tough shit ::chitown:: 

Maybe Trayvons parents will have learned from this, not to encourage racial chips on the shoulders of their children, and not to allow minors to wear uniforms that identify them with the scum of society when they are out and about, no one has the time in a crisis to get to know your priceless offspring, the first impression is what people act on when given only seconds. 

And hopefully wannabe parents to a similar type of youth..... " eh Mr....Obama :mid: " will think twice and use a condom.

There should never have been a case and for that reason alone, I hope Zimmerman and his family will be able to move on from this politically motivated lynch trial attempt, and that the economic costs be recuperated some way.

And hopefully the Sandford Police chief the former prosecutor the initial investigating detectives and others who was branded no good racists will be vindicated, as the good public officials they are following the law as it stands. 

If the Florida "stand your ground law" needs changing, it is not done by lynching an individual in a hand-picked show-trial, fuelled by media bias, irresponsible unhinged hysterical madmen and their organisations, and a POTUS huge political fuck up, but by careful informed thorough Political work in the lawmaking processes of Florida.

A striking photo highlighting some of the media bias in the build up to this case, Zimmerman is the small guy in these life-size cardboard cut-outs!!!............

----------


## harrybarracuda

Justice was seen to be done.

I think the lynching will come later.

----------


## mao say dung

> If the Florida "stand your ground law" needs changing, it is not done by lynching an individual in a hand-picked show-trial, fuelled by media bias, irresponsible unhinged hysterical madmen and their organisations, and a POTUS huge political fuck up, but by careful informed thorough Political work in the lawmaking processes of Florida.


Yup...

----------


## bsnub

> You'r starting to come along nicely Bsnub......by God we'll make a conservative out of you yet


Never going to happen.




> The fucktard who wrote the headline of this thread should be shot.


Why? Those are facts.

Unarmed black teenager was shot by neighbourhood watch volunteer

What part of that sentence is untrue?

----------


## grasshopper

[QUOTE=larvidchr;2507515][quote=koman;2507395]

    "In the end the jury had to accept the physical and forensic evidence 

 A political show trial if ever there was one.   

You lot tried it all, officials where fired, heavy political pressure brought to bear, dirty tricks, manipulation of the truth etc etc........ and You miserably failed to achieve your devious fraudulent goal. "

Hellooooo! Wasnt the case Zimmerman versus the State of Floridee? 

And who runs the selfsame State? The Democrat/pinko/Commie ratfinks? Noooo! Its them upright citizens, the Republican government of Florida.

Sheesh!

----------


## piwanoi

This is pretty heavy shit, it starts to warm up half way through , one thing it does do is vindicate Booners when he said tax payers money was used to pay for pro Martin anti Zimmerman  black marches  :Smile: Articles: Impeach Attorney General Holder - for Justice's Sake ,

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> You'r starting to come along nicely Bsnub......by God we'll make a conservative out of you yet
> 
> 
> Never going to happen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He was armed with his two fists of black steel- actually, make that three based on Porky's account. That's enough to make soft old pussies like the racist expat assholes on this thread soil their Depends.

----------


## S Landreth

> People, People, come on, this is America here, we need to look at the important ramifications of this decision:
> 
> (1) How much do Zimmerman's lawyers jack up their rates?
> (2) Which network gets the Zimmerman interview?
> (3) Mini-series or Movie?
> (4) How many octaves does Sharpton's voice rise?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You forgot one. 

6) Will Zimmerman be the main speaker at CPAC next year?

----------


## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by bsnub
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by koman
> ...


  Of course Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson who was leading the baying black horde calling for Zimmermans head ,paid for with tax payers money are not Racists are they ? , justice has been done and the rest is just sour grapes at the rightfull result pure and simple . :Smile:

----------


## leemo

Headline from the world's most read online newspaper:

*'Dead man walking': America erupts as George Zimmerman is found NOT GUILTY of the murder or manslaughter of unarmed boy with bag of sweets he shot dead*

'Dead man walking': America erupts as George Zimmerman is found NOT GUILTY of the murder or manslaughter of Trayvon Martin in race case that divided a nation | Mail Online

Sick, sick, sick, but they have no capacity for shame.

----------


## bsnub

> Headline from the world's most read online newspaper:
> 
> *'Dead man walking': America erupts as George Zimmerman is found NOT GUILTY of the murder or manslaughter of unarmed boy with bag of sweets he shot dead*
> 
> 'Dead man walking': America erupts as George Zimmerman is found NOT GUILTY of the murder or manslaughter of Trayvon Martin in race case that divided a nation | Mail Online
> 
> Sick, sick, sick, but they have no capacity for shame.


WOW even the well known right wing rags in the UK are going after Zimmerman. A sad state for the UK.

----------


## Fluke

> Headline from the world's most read online newspaper:
> 
> *'Dead man walking': America erupts as George Zimmerman is found NOT GUILTY of the murder or manslaughter of unarmed boy with bag of sweets he shot dead*
> 
> 'Dead man walking': America erupts as George Zimmerman is found NOT GUILTY of the murder or manslaughter of Trayvon Martin in race case that divided a nation | Mail Online
> 
> Sick, sick, sick, but they have no capacity for shame.


  What do you find shameful and sick about the newspapers report ?

----------


## leemo

The Daily Mail:




> America erupts...





> The court was told that he (Z) had followed the unarmed youngster through a park because he looked like he was 'up to no good.'


No mention that this 'evidence' is untrue, unsubstantiated, contradicted and rejected, just the *fact* that it was told to the court. 





> Zimmerman, a volunteer neighbourhood watchman, *claims* he shot Martin in self-defence...


One 'fact', one 'claim', both deceitful. 





> The shooting of Martin, who is African-American, by Zimmerman, *who is not*, has fuelled new debates..."






> Zimmerman is said to have been in hiding and wears a bullet proof vest when outside, according to the New York Times.


Who is his life in perceived danger from, even before the verdict, if not the racist blacks and their Leftist cohorts?


And of course we should expect the black racists to join the fray:




> Trayvon's parents, along with civil rights leaders such as the Rev Jesse Jackson and Rev Al Sharpton, argued that Zimmerman, whose father is white and whose mother is Hispanic, had racially profiled their son.


Course he did, that's what 'white' folk do.




> They also accused investigators of dragging their feet because Trayvon was a black teenager.





> ...Even the black Socialist in the WH added to the case, saying that if he had a son, 'he'd look like Trayvon'.


Another white-hating scum batting for his livestock over justice. 




> That serial cnut Sharpton continued to campaign after the verdict, saying: 'The acquittal of George Zimmerman is a slap in the face to the American people but it is only the first round in the pursuit of justice.


Yes, we know what this peaceful rat means by justice.

And let's also get the kids involved for some more emotive racism. I recommend a cute black girl holding up a placard demanding justice for Trayvon.

----------


## Boon Mee

Bottom line boys, this was a trial that should never have happened in the first place.  Nothing but a political circus.  

Suck it up...

----------


## jamescollister

Seems that Anglia Cory the special prosecutor who got the arrest warrant has been indited by something called a citizens grand jury, for with holding information.

Not sure how true or what it means if any thing, nets very slow for searching, others may be able to dig a bit deeper. 
If true she was indited on the 1st of July. Jim

----------


## Begbie

Bottom line?

Zimmerman only approached the kid because he had a concealed weapon. The kid gave Zimmerman a beating because he was unaware of the gun. 

Take away the gun and the confrontation would never have happened. America is to blame as well as the coward wannabe cop.

----------


## leemo

Best the elites can do is call it a fair cop and have a quiet word with their top brass to stop them from pretending to call for peace whilst showing a fist.

Let it settle a while, and there are still good people out their that aren't queasy about digging up the slugs.

----------


## jamescollister

> Bottom line?
> 
> Zimmerman only approached the kid because he had a concealed weapon. The kid gave Zimmerman a beating because he was unaware of the gun. 
> 
> Take away the gun and the confrontation would never have happened. America is to blame as well as the coward wannabe cop.


What if Zim wasn't neighbor hood watch and was walking up the street to visit a friend. Martin still would have jumped him, or are you saying whites should not get out of cars when blacks are about. Jim

----------


## Boon Mee

^
Whites cannot look at Blacks either.

Constitutes racial profiling or _something_...

----------


## Fluke

> Originally Posted by Begbie
> 
> 
> Bottom line?
> 
> Zimmerman only approached the kid because he had a concealed weapon. The kid gave Zimmerman a beating because he was unaware of the gun. 
> 
> Take away the gun and the confrontation would never have happened. America is to blame as well as the coward wannabe cop.
> 
> ...


  LOL, Zimmerman has gone from Hispanic to White overnight .

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Headline from the world's most read online newspaper:
> 
> *'Dead man walking': America erupts as George Zimmerman is found NOT GUILTY of the murder or manslaughter of unarmed boy with bag of sweets he shot dead*
> 
> 'Dead man walking': America erupts as George Zimmerman is found NOT GUILTY of the murder or manslaughter of Trayvon Martin in race case that divided a nation | Mail Online
> 
> Sick, sick, sick, but they have no capacity for shame.


This paper is so funny. They have an ongoing campaign to stop the sexualisation of young children. It's normally illustrated by pictures of over-made up, bikini clad kids on page 12, 16, 24, 32.....

The only people that take it seriously are curtain twitching grannies from the Home Counties. They'll have to put their teeth in just so they can go "Tut tut".

----------


## Begbie

> Originally Posted by Begbie
> 
> 
> Bottom line?
> 
> Zimmerman only approached the kid because he had a concealed weapon. The kid gave Zimmerman a beating because he was unaware of the gun. 
> 
> Take away the gun and the confrontation would never have happened. America is to blame as well as the coward wannabe cop.
> 
> ...


What a crock. Forget colour for a moment if you can. In what situation would you approach someone who looks like they can handle themselves and ask them why they're on the street? 

Of course Jim if you had a gun in your elastic pants you might do something this dumb.

In a normal country this situation wouldn't occur and the kid would still be alive.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by Begbie
> 
> 
> Bottom line?
> 
> Zimmerman only approached the kid because he had a concealed weapon. The kid gave Zimmerman a beating because he was unaware of the gun. 
> 
> Take away the gun and the confrontation would never have happened. America is to blame as well as the coward wannabe cop.
> 
> ...


Oh Jim stop with the stupid bloody speculation. Zimmerman went out of his way to snoop, that much is glaringly fucking obvious.

----------


## Fluke

> and the kid would still be alive.



  Kid ? , IMO Kids stop being kids when they get to 13 years old , A 17 year old certainly isnt a kid

----------


## larvidchr

Lets have some more of the spin media and the Obama directed prosecution has put on this case.

Trayvons nice clean cut distraught Dad -




Oh  no, wrong this is just a "rented" prosecution disguise for court  appearances, here is how he really looks when he plays "Dad role model" -



Cleverly  tattoed from toe to neck, chain, cap and the attitude to match. Another  broken African American family, and with Trayvon visiting his Dad  because his mother had trouble managing him!! most of which was through  all these months suppressed and kept diligently from the public by a  media who choose to instead show only many year old kiddie photos of  Trayvon , and some of it also kept hidden by the prosecutors and only  released to the Zimmerman defence team at the last minute because a  whistleblower forced them too.

It creates this apprentice gang-banger attitude that ended up costing him his life - 


Trayvons  Parents carry a lot of the blame for their child's antisocial  aggressive attitude, and if something is to be gained from this, it is  to teach your kids that any violence is always bad and only have bad  outcomes no matter what side you are on, to always as a rule act  peacefully and friendly towards all races, and guide your children away  from the trappings that entrap you in the sick trenches of racial  animosity, like gangsta rap, baggy pants, hoodies, guns, drug use and  pimp jewellery around the neck, not to mention the wonderful fearsome "black fists of  steel" (post 1826) that he has very little use of now!!! :mid:  and none of which is conductive for a normal career in the sane parts of society 

All  I have heard today is the number 17 repeated over and over again  together with the word child, a child that did nothing wrong but buying  skittles, drowning in all this emotional rubbish was Zimmerman's lawyer  who dared to mention Trayvons adult male behaviour in his vicious and  unnecessary violent assault on Zimmerman that eventually cost him his  life, and the Zimmerman lawyer also slammed the media for their  behaviour covering this case.

And the blatant but not said  attempt to create affirmative action in criminal cases, so Blacks is  held to a more lenient standard of lawful behaviour than the rest of  society, and the rest of society to adhere to an obligation to accept  more criminal behaviour from African Americans.

Looking at the  photos the only affirmative action I really do find should be adopted is  in tattoo parlours, Blacks should get half price, tattooing Blacks  really is a futile endeavour right from the start.

Lets finish with Chicago stats. from the recent holiday weekend - 

_"At least 72 people were shot in Chicago–including 12 fatally–over the  July 4th holiday weekend, continuing a trend of weekend shootings in the  city, according to local media reports on Monday."_

_"NBC noted that many of the dozens of shootings in Chicago, sometimes called “Chiraq” by locals, were related to gang violence."_

Chicago Shootings: 72 Shot, 12 Dead in 'Chiraq' Over July 4 Weekend

Of  cause no one gives a shit, most of these are black on black, so no  racial advantages to be gained from million hoodie marches and the like :mid: .

----------


## Laphanphon

Well it's over. Or is it?

----------


## Mid

more guns for ALL Americans .

----------


## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Begbie
> ...


Obvious to who, Martin and again you are mixing the evidence, only contact Zim had was eye contact from the car and next when Martin jumped him. You can not follow some you can see.
Martins house was 100 yards away, from first Zim police call ,to gun shot, 4 minutes. Incident was 30 yards from the car. Martin either doubled back or hide in the shadows. Why, who know, but usually street robbery. 
Zimmerman's motives for getting out of the car have no relevance, as Martin did not know them.  

 Martins motives do have relevance, he could have strolled home, been in front of the TV eating his skittles, but he didn't.

In Martins eyes Zimmerman was a fat white guy [cracker not spic ] who looked at him and then walk up a lane.

It could have been anyone walking down that lane, Martin targeted him because he was white. Jim

----------


## hazz

> Martins motives do have relevance, he could have strolled home, been in front of the TV eating his skittles, but he didn't.


very good advice, which if Zimmerman had followed and left policing to the real police then Martins would still be alive, eating skittles. but then Zimmerman didn't and Martins is dead

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by jamescollister
> ...


It's evidence if you're dumb enough to believe at least one of Zimmerman's differing versions of events.

----------


## jamescollister

HB the jury believed after hearing all the evidence, the cops believed after their investigation. The forensics supported his story and the time line of events are in line with the evidence.
To believe otherwise you are saying that Zimmerman had planed this weeks before and was just waiting the opportunity and the local cops conspired to have Martin killed.
Does Zimmerman look that smart, as said anyone could have parked there that night and they would just be another street robbery or assault victim. Happens everyday in every  country,
Perhaps new laws that state rob or assault people not of your race ,should be race crimes. There would be a lot less whites and Asians mugged by blacks then. Jim

----------


## grasshopper

Sigh..... Still waiting for an answer ladies. Who runs the State of Floridee? POTUS or the grand old redneck Republicans?

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

Only this type of shit is even discussed in America. 

Some reprobate that is a product of his fucked up society gets shot by another reprobate who is a product of his fucked up society.

I see Americans here from all sides of the spectrum that get this.
I also see Americans from all sides of the spectrum that don't get this.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Guess now the witch hunt will begin, heads will roll, blame for the loss will be a portioned.
> Not the big guys of course, think the judge is gone, prosecution team may be looking for new jobs. Jim


That already started with the firing of the whistle blower mentioned in a post above, but the judge is elected in, not appointed, so she isn't too likely to be removed more likely hopefully to be promoted.

I also feel that prosecuting team did their jobs believe it or not, I feel very strongly that they threw this one...

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Barracuda! Dat's a nasty crack. I put forward Ashton Agar for the role of the banger, right? Fits the bill. Tall, can wear a hoody and instant heart appeal.
> Just a few questions for Floridaborn though, re post 1786:
> 1. Read your comments with interest Fb. Can we assume that you werent black when aged 17 years and therefore not dumb by definition?
> 2. If you were unfortunate enough to be dumb and black at 17 - would you have been in a gated white community, boy?
> 3. If you was dumb enough - would you then be smart enough to get off de phone to de bro and call the fuzz because a politely speaking little cracker mofo was  enquiring as to your reasons for being in dis community heah?
> 4. Would not a decision to hightail it outta there be an indication of some guilt on yore part? Maybe dat provoke de wrong reaction from the polite white guy who was packing?
> 5. As a dumb ass black 17 year old - would you then be familiar with the laws of the fine State of Floridee? Or, for that matter, as a white 17 year old vested with intelligence by birth alone?
> 6. How you know de bro was so full of shit himself. You see it run out of the hole when de daylight was let in?
> 
> ...


 :smiley laughing: 

As far as I know the community wasn't gated, might have avoided this entire situation..  ::chitown:: 

As for the rest of your post a bit hard to know what direction you're heading but the wording sounds more like Georgia, Tenneesse or South Carolina, we're a bit more cultured down this way and far more integrated with races and nationalities from all over the world even including those superficial and pompous Brits  :Smile: ..

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by bsnub
> ...


Again can't rep yet so +10....  :France:  they and their families have sacrificed for weeks, it's a tough job and big responsibility no doubt that will continue to weigh heavily on their shoulders, my fears is that won't be appreciated or accepted by those who've already convicted all parties concerned even before the trial and since the verdict....

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> 
> 
>     "In the end the jury had to accept the physical and forensic evidence 
> 
>  The attack provoked a retaliation which resulted in a dead 17 year old and a political football for the likes of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson ....not to mention the POTUS....who showed a serious lack of judgement by even commenting on the case.  
> 
> All Zimmerman can really be accused of is some poor judgement...which is hardly a criminal offence.     A political show trial if ever there was one.    The conduct of the media, black activist leaders, the POTUS and even the judge were all a disgrace....."
> ...


Unable to rep people sucks.. +10.. Unfortunately the racist label never subsides regardless of the righteousness of the position held or opinion given as evidenced by many of the opposing camp posting right here in this forum, it still remains as misguided and self righteous as always, they'll never accept that some, even "white" people can detach themselves from their race and make an impartial decision either way based on facts and evidence presented to them.. If the "white" defendant is favored it's never gonna be anything but "racist" by their point of view..

----------


## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> Guess now the witch hunt will begin, heads will roll, blame for the loss will be a portioned.
> Not the big guys of course, think the judge is gone, prosecution team may be looking for new jobs. Jim
> 
> 
> That already started with the firing of the whistle blower mentioned in a post above, but the judge is elected in, not appointed, so she isn't too likely to be removed more likely hopefully to be promoted.
> 
> I also feel that prosecuting team did their jobs believe it or not, I feel very strongly that they threw this one...


Prosecution seemed to be Zims best defense, whether they through  the case or just had nothing to start.
Hard to prosecute for murder when there is on real evidence and they appear to have bent a lot of rules. So setting up a lot off appeals, think they thought he was not guilty and went through the motions.
Nothing to do with justice, all to do with press .
It's not Just the USA, happens all over the western world, the law is not above the powers that be and they play a different game. Jim

----------


## FloridaBorn

[QUOTE=grasshopper;2507549][QUOTE=larvidchr;2507515]


> "In the end the jury had to accept the physical and forensic evidence 
> 
>  A political show trial if ever there was one.   
> 
> You lot tried it all, officials where fired, heavy political pressure brought to bear, dirty tricks, manipulation of the truth etc etc........ and You miserably failed to achieve your devious fraudulent goal. "
> 
> Hellooooo! Wasnt the case Zimmerman versus the State of Floridee? 
> 
> And who runs the selfsame State? The Democrat/pinko/Commie ratfinks? Noooo! Its them upright citizens, the Republican government of Florida.
> ...


You mean the admin that took over from the previous 2 or 3 failed democratic admins which opened the door for the Republicans to take over* in a predominantly democratic state*? That government?

The stand your ground law has been in effect much longer then they've been in office but this is kind of like that long standing POTUS debate, only recent convenient memory applies when discussing with those who have no past vision or perspective.

BTW point of fact, in states that have enacted this or similar laws have reported drops in violent crime of between 9 and 11 percent  :mid:  .. But let's not let facts cloud the hysteria..

----------


## Rainfall

That's a great success for freedom. We accept that police can check us without us providing any suspicious facts for controls, we accept that the NSA can penetrate the deepest layers of our privacy, that we have to take our shoes off on airports, our bodies violated by pat-downs by strangers, and the rectum and sexual organs inspected if they desire so. And now we have to accept private vigilantes who can challenge our right to go to our own homes unmolested at their whim as well. Right-wing utopia has become reality.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by jamescollister
> ...


They made such obvious blunders I just can't see them being THAT incompetent unintentionally and why not, if they never felt the case was valid and to avoid convicting an innocent man, in that case they did the right thing for appearances.. I just wish we, as tax payers and Z didn't have to endure such heavy costs and scarring to placate a loud minority of zealots and placation is probably not possible anyways.

Think about it, the continued appeals and the possibilty of his being wrongly convicted opening up the state to a possible law suit etc. this would have dragged on for years and now it can begin moving into the past so this really was their only option being backed into a corner..

----------


## FloridaBorn

> That's a great success for freedom. We accept that police can check us without us providing any suspicious facts for controls, we accept that the NSA can penetrate the deepest layers of our privacy, that we have to take our shoes off on airports, our bodies violated by pat-downs by strangers, and the rectum and sexual organs inspected if they desire so. And now we have to accept private vigilantes who can challenge our right to go to our own homes unmolested at their whim as well. Right-wing utopia has become reality.


What about one's freedom NOT to be a victim or live in fear of your life from thugs, thieves and assailants? Aren't we allowed the freedom granted us by the laws and constitution the right to protect ourselves from those who'd freely violate them?







Never mind, rhetorical question as it's easy to extrapolate from your post that the answer is NO...

BTW I'm not Republican nor conservative and about as centrist as anyone you'd ever know (of course I'd be accused of otherwise just because I can be so impartial) and this is how I feel on this topic..

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by leemo
> 
> 
> Headline from the world's most read online newspaper:
> 
> *'Dead man walking': America erupts as George Zimmerman is found NOT GUILTY of the murder or manslaughter of unarmed boy with bag of sweets he shot dead*
> 
> 'Dead man walking': America erupts as George Zimmerman is found NOT GUILTY of the murder or manslaughter of Trayvon Martin in race case that divided a nation | Mail Online
> 
> ...


But, but, but isn't that the same country that only recently finally deported a well known wanted terrorist to Jordan after decades and millions of pounds of his fighting extradition?

Says it all really  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  ....

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Bottom line boys, this was a trial that should never have happened in the first place.  Nothing but a political circus.  
> 
> Suck it up...


 ::chitown::  ............

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Bottom line?
> 
> Zimmerman only approached the kid because he had a concealed weapon. The kid gave Zimmerman a beating because he was unaware of the gun. 
> 
> Take away the gun and the confrontation would never have happened. America is to blame as well as the coward wannabe cop.


Yep, America's fault...




> NEW POLL SHOWS ENGLAND WANTS ITS GUNS BACK


New Poll Shows England Wants Its Guns Back | TheBlaze.com

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Begbie
> ...


He's been classified as "white" ever since, the opposing side wants to make absolutely certain he's not classified otherwise as the argument then losses credibility and steam otherwise..

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Begbie
> ...


Was he on the street? A public street outside a local 7/11 for example? Don't be silly at least use applicable examples, apples and apples maybe?..

I'd like to know what "normal" country you're speaking of too? That ought to be entertaining  ::chitown::   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): ....

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Begbie
> ...


Yes, the JOB of a community crime watch captain...What part of that is SOOOO hard to comprehend for some?

----------


## Cujo

Just saw on the HK news the authorities are calling for calm after Zimm found innocent.
A bunch of white women outside the courthouse protesting claiming the system has failed.
They showed a still of a (14?) year old Trayvon and pointedly mentioned he was killed with a packet of skittles in his pocket.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by Begbie
> 
> 
>  and the kid would still be alive.
> 
> 
> 
>   Kid ? , IMO Kids stop being kids when they get to 13 years old , A 17 year old certainly isnt a kid


Too much logic applied, check this out.. How many of you would trifle with any of these "kids" in their youth..



He was just 19 when he entered the NBA, Lebron James BTW for those who may not know..

and there's this:

Andrew Wiggins: Hype, Mix Tape Legend Or The Truth?

18 years old and 6-8 200 pounds, 
I found this example searching for another one I couldn't find at the mo which is a 6 foot something 200Lb 14 year old basketball player already recruited by a university..

Yes, kids??  :tieme:

----------


## FloridaBorn

> HB the jury believed after hearing all the evidence, the cops believed after their investigation. The forensics supported his story and the time line of events are in line with the evidence.
> To believe otherwise you are saying that Zimmerman had planed this weeks before and was just waiting the opportunity and the local cops conspired to have Martin killed.
> Does Zimmerman look that smart, as said anyone could have parked there that night and they would just be another street robbery or assault victim. Happens everyday in every  country,
> Perhaps new laws that state rob or assault people not of your race ,should be race crimes. There would be a lot less whites and Asians mugged by blacks then. Jim


Too sensible to be valid in the eyes of some..You're claiming the sky is blue, how silly of you!!  :Smile:

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Sigh..... Still waiting for an answer ladies. Who runs the State of Floridee? POTUS or the grand old redneck Republicans?


I gave you an answer albeit a bit late as I was checking my eyelids for holes..

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> HB the jury believed after hearing all the evidence, the cops believed after their investigation. The forensics supported his story and the time line of events are in line with the evidence.
> To believe otherwise you are saying that Zimmerman had planed this weeks before and was just waiting the opportunity and the local cops conspired to have Martin killed.
> Does Zimmerman look that smart, as said anyone could have parked there that night and they would just be another street robbery or assault victim. Happens everyday in every  country,
> Perhaps new laws that state rob or assault people not of your race ,should be race crimes. There would be a lot less whites and Asians mugged by blacks then. Jim
> 
> 
> Too sensible to be valid in the eyes of some..You're claiming the sky is blue, how silly of you!!


And he's obviously colour blind in more ways than one...

----------


## RickThai

Hopefully, people of all races will eventually learn that you just can't physically attack someone because you are PO'd about something and think you can win.  You never know who's carrying.

(Too bad we can't trust children with guns.  Life for pedophiles would certainly take a turn for the worst!)

I wonder if the HOA that was reportedly sued by Martin's family, can now file an appeal and get the award overturned?

I also wonder if the feds will try and come up with some bogus federal "civil rights" charges (after all that could have been Pres. Obama's son, right?)?

I'm sure the Negro leadership and clergy are having discussions on their next best move.

RickThai

----------


## robuzo

> That's a great success for freedom. We accept that police can check us without us providing any suspicious facts for controls, we accept that the NSA can penetrate the deepest layers of our privacy, that we have to take our shoes off on airports, our bodies violated by pat-downs by strangers, and the rectum and sexual organs inspected if they desire so. And now we have to accept private vigilantes who can challenge our right to go to our own homes unmolested at their whim as well. Right-wing utopia has become reality.


Think the police state was bad enough? Now we can also deal with the shadow (fake) police state. Gives new meaning to "busybody."

----------


## piwanoi

> That's a great success for freedom. We accept that police can check us without us providing any suspicious facts for controls, we accept that the NSA can penetrate the deepest layers of our privacy, that we have to take our shoes off on airports, our bodies violated by pat-downs by strangers, and the rectum and sexual organs inspected if they desire so. And now we have to accept private vigilantes who can challenge our right to go to our own homes unmolested at their whim as well. Right-wing utopia has become reality.


 So in essence what you are plainly saying that even though some one is strongly suspected of carrying explosives onto an aircraft body searches in most intimate parts of the body should be strictly forbidden !, so all one has to do then is stick a 1 kg sausage of semtex up ones arsehole and then blast off to oblivion taking 300 innocent people with you , all in the name of Allah of course  :Smile:

----------


## leemo

> That's a great success for freedom. We accept that police can check us without us providing any suspicious facts for controls, we accept that the NSA can penetrate the deepest layers of our privacy, that we have to take our shoes off on airports, our bodies violated by pat-downs by strangers, and the rectum and sexual organs inspected if they desire so. And now we have to accept private vigilantes who can challenge our right to go to our own homes unmolested at their whim as well. Right-wing utopia has become reality.


So true, just like the "right" wing trial, huh?

----------


## socal

> That's a great success for freedom. We accept that police can check us without us providing any suspicious facts for controls, we accept that the NSA can penetrate the deepest layers of our privacy, that we have to take our shoes off on airports, our bodies violated by pat-downs by strangers, and the rectum and sexual organs inspected if they desire so. And now we have to accept private vigilantes who can challenge our right to go to our own homes unmolested at their whim as well. Right-wing utopia has become reality.


 :rofl: 

Yeah. 

Maybe you should move into these hoods where criminals roam around and rob anything in sight. Then maybe you wouldn\t be complaining about the volunteer watch guy :mid:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by Begbie
> 
> 
> Bottom line?
> 
> Zimmerman only approached the kid because he had a concealed weapon. The kid gave Zimmerman a beating because he was unaware of the gun. 
> 
> Take away the gun and the confrontation would never have happened. America is to blame as well as the coward wannabe cop.
> 
> ...


That's not a poll, that's an online vote, and it's obviously been orchestrated by the gun lobby.

If you think the pressing issue for 88% of the British public is getting guns back, you are demented.

----------


## Ceburat1

Maybe we should just stop having programs like hood watches - then we would see who hollers first.

Both men were wrong.  It's very sad that one of them died

----------


## robuzo

If it's one-on-one and no witnesses are around, definitely shoot to kill: "The shooting brought attention to Floridas expansive self-defense laws. The laws allow someone with a reasonable fear of great bodily harm or death to use lethal force, even if retreating from danger is an option. In court, *the gunman is given the benefit of the doubt*." http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/15/us...agewanted=all& And yes, I know SYG per se wasn't part of GZ's defense. Nonetheless, FL's SYG law is the reason the cops didn't press charges in the first place (because absent witnesses cops, too, give the gunman the benefit of the doubt), and Florida's self-defense provisions are not limited to SYG.

----------


## leemo

> Maybe we should just stop having programs like hood watches - then we would see who hollers first.
> 
> Both men were wrong.  It's very sad that one of them died


We probably never would have heard of Zimmerman if he enjoyed an honourable Leftist death, by not resisting because he couldn't be absolutely sure that the hoodlum was going to kill him.

----------


## mao say dung

^^Friends of mine in Canada are just howling over this, I guess like a lot of "left-liberals" or whatever they call themselves these days. Talking about using a conviction to warn other would-be killers of black youth etc... They are really not interested in the purely legal aspects of the trial and neither are they interested in the relationship between rule of law, individual rights and NOT using criminal court as a form of social engineering.

From what I've read, the jury returned a reasonable verdict. 

If there is a problem with the law, then that should be the focus of anger and protest, not this particular case.

It's this sort of unreasoning moralizing that makes the "left" almost as unattractive as the right. Almost. 

At least their hearts are in the right place.

When do they learn the hard lesson that "hearts" can't run liberal-democratic systems with rule of law???

----------


## robuzo

> ^^Friends of mine in Canada are just howling over this, I guess like a lot of "left-liberals" or whatever they call themselves these days.


"This" being what, exactly? It's unfortunate that the killing devolved, as it were, into a civil rights case, unless the so-called civil right is to carry firearms in public and act the part of tinpot vigilante. The exoneration of Zimmerman serves as encouragement to armed douchebags to look for trouble, a development that doesn't serve the cause of public safety for people of any race.

----------


## leemo

It also instills upon the 'whites' a conscious understanding that should they find themselves in a similar situation of perceived threat to their life by a black, they risk denunciation by responding in a manner that threatens the life of their assailant, even if not doing so actively contributes to their own demise.

It creates uncertainty, insecurity and critical hesitation.

This is why I believe the liberal elites were in a no lose situation by forcing a trial which had little to do with justice *or even this case*. But it has much to do with the decades old social problems within the black community, and black leaders posturing as civil rights activists to shake more fruit from the money tree by using their 21st century multidenominational slaves to ensure the right levels of intimidation.

The Liberal elites in DC wanted Z's white head on a platter, and the prosecution did its best to deliver even though they knew they had no evidence to support a murder rap and that such a case would never be pursued by principled people. And should they have struck lucky with a blindly liberal jury and a conviction, everyone, including the DC righteous, knew that such a conviction would be overturned as a formality on appeal, since it would have been scored on emotion and ideology over anything that resembles evidence.

But the same black/Leftist elites also knew they were guaranteed victory, regardless of the trial outcome. Huh?

A conviction would allow them victorious headlines like, "Zimmerman guilty," and, "America saved from shame," while an acquittal would be polished up and promoted as proof by the black liberal coalition that America is indeed racist and needs more reeducation. Either way, they shake more public money from the tree, the slavemakers become richer and more powerful, and their livestock go home blissfully unaware that they have accomplished nothing to better their lot under the thumb of their own corrupt leaders.

This is not an indictment of Obama's America, but that of a loyal and determined Leftist elite that made it possible.

----------


## mao say dung

> The exoneration of Zimmerman serves as encouragement to armed douchebags to look for trouble, a development that doesn't serve the cause of public safety for people of any race.


The exoneration of Zimmerman seems to me to reflect the intention of the very bad law which serves to encourage armed douchebags to look for trouble.

It isn't up to a jury of 6 women in Florida to change the state law. The people who want to make this into nothing more or less than a civil rights case are so wrong-headed it isn't true. They should take their anger and their energy and fight this law and laws like it around the country.

Unfortunately, and this is true of my friends as well, most of these people are just responding to a TV show and getting all down and dirty with an actual functioning legal system ain't nearly as entertaining.

The American liberal mass blowing its load of anti-racist self-righteousness and demanding that rule of law be subverted in order not to encourage douche-bags obviously doesn't appreciate the difference between rule of law and moral outrage.

Dangerous. If they want to live somewhere where morality and social utility trump the law, they should all just move to Asia. And let them eat Confucian mooncakes.

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> The exoneration of Zimmerman serves as encouragement to armed douchebags to look for trouble, a development that doesn't serve the cause of public safety for people of any race.
> 
> 
> The exoneration of Zimmerman seems to me to reflect the intention of the very bad law which serves to encourage armed douchebags to look for trouble.
> 
> It isn't up to a jury of 6 women in Florida to change the state law.


I thought when the jury asked for clarification of instructions (about manslaughter) and received a less-than-clear answer to their question that they were probably going to exonerate. The US system is supposed to err on the side of caution and not lock people up unless beyond a reasonable doubt. "Couldn't get him for at least manslaughter. . .", etc., but manslaughter is nothing to sneeze at.

As a Florida attorney friend put it, Z was overcharged and undertried (amazingly short trial). It's a shame it allows people to say it wasn't about Stand Your Ground, because SYG is what allowed Z to skate and walk around free when he should have been out on bail. 

The travesty here is that the outcome of this trial might encourage more violence rather than deter it. If the burden of proof of self-defense was too severe in the past, the pendulum has apparently swung the other way. I disagree with activists who say that asserting this case isn't about race but weapons/self-defense laws is like saying lynching is about rope laws. If Z had come at Trayvon with a rope he would have received a thumping. Of course, if all he had was a rope El Gordo probably wouldn't have been quite so brave in the first place.

By the way, Dan White got away with shooting a mayor using the Twinkie defense. If Trayvon was a little to quick to violence why hasn't anybody blamed the Skittles/ice tea combination? Figures "conservatives" blame the pot, but if anything it was the snacks.

----------


## Warrior

So George Zimmerman is a free guy now. Well, not exactly free, as from now on he will be looking over his shoulder all the time, never feeling safe ever again. Whether self-defence or not killing an unarmed teenager shouldnt have the door to heaven swing open for you.

I was just wondering: what country needs _armed volunteer neighbourhood watches_?

Have a close look:

   Armed volunteer?
   Neighbourhood watch?
   Armed neighbourhood?

Why do you need that? Where has it gone wrong? Why do you think that is perfectly OK? 

What kind of life do you have? What kind of world did you create?

Why the feck do you need ARMED VOLUNTEERS  to watch your neighbourhood?

Where has it gone wrong that they think that is perfectly OK. My neighbourhood doesnt have that. Nor did any neighbourhood I ever lived in before had neighbourhood watches. Let alone armed watches.

Where has it gone wrong?

----------


## larvidchr

> The travesty here is that the outcome of this trial might encourage more violence rather than deter it. If the burden of proof of self-defense was too severe in the past, the pendulum has apparently swung the other way. I disagree with activists who say that asserting this case isn't about race but weapons/self-defense laws is like saying lynching is about rope laws. If Z had come at Trayvon with a rope he would have received a thumping. Of course, if all he had was a rope El Gordo probably wouldn't have been quite so brave in the first place.


And I guess that if Zimmerman had been 3-4 inches taller than Trayvon  instead of the opposite, the hotheaded potfueled teen-troubled gangsta  wannabe with gold teeth and tattoos calling himself "NO LIMIT  NIGGA" on social media, would have chosen to just run the last few yards  home to big Puff Daddy, instead he needlessly chose to stay and confront Zimmerman  and acted out his dreams of adult hard-man "fists of black steel" "no limit  nigga" gangsta, thinking in his youthful testosterone overconfident  dumbass ignorance, I'm bigger I can take this guy and physically hurt him, and that  is OK to do too  :mid:   :mid: 

Unfortunately  evolution favours brain from brawn, a lesson to late for - only all brawn  "fists of black steel" Trayvon to enjoy, but one his parents should have  taken care to instil upon him a long time ago. 

Parents like the  oh so caring and involved Big Daddy father of Trayvon, that did not  even report his oh so lovely well adjusted all American sweet little  bitty skittles munching baby child missing.......... until the fvucking  next morning!!!!

Child my ass, Trayvon behaved in ways like an  adult, was treated at home like an adult, and was the size of a big  adult, but with the racially brainwashed demeanour of a retard gangsta "hoe" (one of his favourite words on social media) fvucking  black ghetto dweller.

Trayvon the little sweet innocent child was  on his third suspension from school, one of which a bag was found in  his locker with burglar tools and several pieces of stolen jewellery  that was impounded by the Police, the last suspension for having been in  possession of drug-taking (Pot) paraphernalia. All very consistent of a  normal little innocent small boy child.... yes :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Fear  mongering about society getting more dangerous and refusing to accept that  justice was finally done in this case by  rightfully acquitting Zimmerman, is a travesty in itself, as was the  prosecution (unlawfully) letting political pressure influence the  decision process about charging an individual, that after all the sane people who refused with the law in hand, had been fired and replaced with political ambitious tossers.

No one need fear armed vigilantes  ready to move you down, unless you like Trayvon - start and engage in  an wholly unnecessary vicious criminal physical assault, but if you do cross that no go boundary regardless of the laws, you deserve and must expect to be stopped dead in your tracks by whatever means. 

The question can never be whether this verdict will endanger any  law-abiding Citizens, unless your aim is that Citizens should never  engage in perfectly legally checking their own local neighbourhoods, and  understand they would be free targets for any sycophant or maladjusted  punk, and never be allowed to defend themselves against unprovoked  criminal attacks.

That is thankfully not yet the case, so the  lesson must be for true responsible parents to teach their children and  lead by example - to act lawfully, responsibly and calmly in the  sometimes charged and dangerous environment the US can be.

And  for the African Americans, to ditch the African bit, and become just  Americans all the time and not only when it suits, to ditch the alienating  self-imposed self-contained homeland exile subculture, and all it's silly, I am different trimmings, trimmings that  holds them down and back, and to renounce the sick Sharpton/Jackson  etc. so-called Black community leader hate-mongers, who keep this shit  going because that is all they have to justify their damaging parasitic  existence.

Finally free the rest of the world from listening to the never ending constant drone of pathetic weak-assed race-whining.

----------


## Laphanphon

Do you remember how many whites rioted when OJ got aquitted? Me neither.

----------


## koman

^^
+10   Outstanding...can't green you but that was worth ten greens..... :Smile:

----------


## leemo

It gets dirtier...

Alan Dershowitz (Harvard Law Prof) vs. Angela Corey (Special Prosecutor) over misleading Affidavit of Probable Cause (July 14)

_There should be a special prosecutor appointed to investigate this special prosecution._

In early April 2012, Special Prosecutor Angela Corey decided not to take the George Zimmerman case to a Grand Jury, opting for the filing of a Criminal Information which then was presented along with an Affidavit of Probable Cause.  The Court found probable cause for the charges.

It turned out, once pre-trial discovery was exchanged, that the affidavit upon which probable cause was found had not disclosed a lot of significant exculpatory details.  There was no mention of the significant injuries to Zimmerman, or of John Good’s eyewitness account that Martin was on top of Zimmerman hitting him Mixed Martial Arts style.  All the Affidavit said on the subject of the physical confrontation was that there was “a struggle.”

The Affidavit identified the voice screaming for help as that of Martin based on an interview with his mother, but did not reveal what we now know, that Martin’s father initially denied it was his son.

The Affidavit also was inaccurate, such as alleging that the 911 operator “instructed Zimmerman not” to follow Martin — a false fact which lives on in the media mythology of the case.

Angela Corey | Alan Dershowitz | George Zimmerman

Certainly looks like at least one of the black guys in the WH sanctioned this political lynch mob.

Will there be a Special Prosecutor to investigate this Special Prosecution? Not in the lifetime of an Obama admin.

----------


## leemo

Ah yes, the Jews...

Black Panthers: Zimmerman is "a no good Jew!" - Virginia Beach Conservative | Examiner.com

----------


## leemo

Dateline:  July 1, 2013,  Cobb County, Georgia

Meet Joshua Heath Chellow, 36.  Like many others, he assumed the early hours of July 1st were going to be another regular day filled with the normal day-to-day activities of life in middle class America  a day that included stopping for gas at a Marbleton, GA gas station in the suburbs of Atlanta. <pic of white victim>

Unfortunately for Joshua, filling up his tank meant he had to exit his vehicle.  Joshua had the misfortune of the same condition that afflicted George Zimmerman that fateful and now infamous night of Feb 26th, 2012  REWW. (*)  Apparently that was sufficient for him to be Trayvonned.

The media is silent on what compelled the attackers, but what is known is that Joshua was set upon and mercilessly beaten in a life-threatening attack by a group of four unarmed black males.  In a desperate attempt at self-preservation, Joshua began backing away from his attackers  stumbling onto the parkway in front of the gas station where he was run over by a passing car.  The driver of the vehicle stopped, rendered aid and called 9-11 but Joshua died of his injuries.

Did any of you know about this attack? No. Because the media reported it as a hit and run fatality while deliberately refusing to discuss the events the preceded the fatal hit and run.

This is where you need to sit up and pay attention. In addition to deliberately suppressing the full, true story of what happened to Joshua, the corporate media made a deliberate and coordinated editorial effort to spin the story:

_MABLETON, Ga.  Cobb County police hope to catch the hit-and-run driver who fatally struck 36-year-old Joshua Heath Chellew of Mableton as he walked along Mableton Parkway early Sunday._

...Three of the four accused are 18 years of age  or in the venacular of John Guy, simply misguided youths a mere 24 mths past the tender age of 16. <pic of the poor intimidated dears>


Debatable, whether this was preempted revenge for the black hoodlum, or business as usual in the hood.

But quite understandable that the MSM took to ground on this 'difficult' one.



* = Running Errands While White

----------


## Warrior

^ Yes, where has it gone wrong?

----------


## piwanoi

> ^ Yes, where has it gone wrong?


 Yeah Warrior JUST WERE as it all gone wrong?, this link may answer your question , IMHO were its gone wrong is the left wing appeasers on this forum  will refuse to read it it  :Smile: Articles: Trayvon's Tragedy: Exploited in Death

----------


## piwanoi

> Ah yes, the Jews...
> 
> Black Panthers: Zimmerman is "a no good Jew!" - Virginia Beach Conservative | Examiner.com


  I wonder if he has a job?, and I do mean a REAL job? :Smile:

----------


## leemo

Panther no need job government give money.

Am I kidding? 
See: Jew link post *1892
"What is even more outrageous is the recently uncovered documents proving that the Obama administration has actually provided assistance in staging several so-called 'Justice for Trayvon' demonstrations, at the expense of U.S. taxpayers."

Doesn't matter, Obama has built up a mountain of free pass credits from the media, naturally not because of his colour or ideology.

----------


## Warrior

> Originally Posted by Warrior
> 
> 
> ^ Yes, where has it gone wrong?
> 
> 
>  Yeah Warrior JUST WERE as it all gone wrong?, this link may answer your question , IMHO were its gone wrong is the left wing appeasers on this forum will refuse to read it it Articles: Trayvon's Tragedy: Exploited in Death


I have lived in, in fact I am from, what you seem to call _socialist_ Europe. Lots of left wings there.
But... no armed volunteer neigbouroud watches there. None. Not armed, not un-armed. No volunteers. No one forced to watch either, by the way.
Where I live now... non either. 
Why do the US need them? Why is that the boy's parents fault? Why is that Obama's fault? Is it the left wing's fault?

This link doesnt answer that question. I have read the article, contrary to your prediction. But I didnt find the answers that you promissed.

----------


## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by piwanoi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Warrior
> ...


Another post that hasn't read the facts, Zim was going to the shop, not on neighborhood patrol. He was allowed by law to carry a firearm.
You sound like one of those people who drive by a crime and say, none of my business.
That's why we world wide have shit neighborhoods, people turn the other way. Most people, no matter color or race want to live a peaceful life, but when we turn and say it;s a police matter, not up to the community, you end up in a no go slum.

People need to stand up and when they do, crime goes away.
Zimmerman stood up, how many of you who condemn him would have stood up.
You would have driven by even if Martin had been breaking into a house, saying none of my business. Jim

----------


## RickThai

> .
> And  for the African Americans, to ditch the African bit, and become just  Americans all the time and not only when it suits, to ditch the alienating  self-imposed self-contained homeland exile subculture, and all it's silly, I am different trimmings, trimmings that  holds them down and back, and to renounce the sick Sharpton/Jackson  etc. so-called Black community leader hate-mongers, who keep this shit  going because that is all they have to justify their damaging parasitic  existence.


As long as people like Sharpton and Jackson can become rich and famous by being professional Negroes, it is not in their best interest to allow "African-Americans" to become just Americans.

The fact that the Justice Department is trying to find something to charge Zimmerman with shows just how racist US governments have become.

When has the federal government (or state governments for that matter) ever filed a "civil rights" charge against a Negro for killing a Caucasian?

The OJ murder case would have been a perfect opportunity for the US government to show "equal treatment" by charging OJ of violating the civil rights of the two people he killed, but the feds only play that card when a Negro or other minority is the victim    of a non-minority.

Also where was all the law enforcement when the "black horde" was rioting after the verdict?

It seems that the local, state, and federal governments policy is to now let minorities riot without any attempts at law enforcement or protection of people and property.

Another reasons why honest people need to own guns.  The police are not reliable when it comes to large groups of minorities on the rampage.

RickThai

----------


## Pound Hound

well... GZ was found not guilty because of a bad prosecution IMHO...

*NO matter what you guys think and have said it is not legal to shoot someone who punches you!*

I hope GZ stashes all that ishotanigger.com money... The Martins will get it real soon. Civil trials are far different from criminal trials. All they have to prove is what actions lead to the death of TM and GZ will have to take the stand....

I believe in our legal system. GZ got his day in court and was found Not Guilty. I accept that. All you who are talking shit about how it never should of gone to court, I don't understand.

The reason he did not want to use the "stand your ground" defense is that its one judge calls it and he would of had to take the stand and be questioned by prosecutors.

If he stays in Florida (hell anywhere except Iowa)... One day pussy boy will walk around the wrong corner... and it won't be a boy it will be 5 big black mother fuckers and they are going to give him the beat down of his life.

"we go down to the courthouse looking for justice... that's what we find just us" - Richard Pryor

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

I just read that zimmerframe was a community copper - VOLUNTARY

obviously most cvnts that apply to be police are wrong 'uns in the first place, plastic voluntary ones are care in the community.

No matter what a lary prick the black fella was, zimmerframe was obviously a travis bickle on a knife edge.

the court rulin is so out of place with current US policy that it even looks like a false flag propoganda scenario

----------


## bsnub

> NO matter what you guys think and have said it is not legal to shoot someone who punches you!


In some states it sure is and Florida is one of them. Also I know you lived in Washington state as well. Well guess what it is legal here as well. See here;

WPIC 17.05 Lawful Force—No Duty To Retreat

 It is lawful for a person who is in a place where that person has a right to be and who has reasonable grounds for believing that [he][she] is being attacked to stand [his][her] ground and defend against such attack by the use of lawful force.
[The law does not impose a duty to retreat.][Notwithstanding the requirement that lawful force be “not more than is necessary,” the law does not impose a duty to retreat. Retreat should not be considered by you as a “reasonably effective alternative.”]

Castle doctrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

----------


## Pound Hound

I said it before bsnub...

GZ's lawyers did not use "stand your ground" or "Castle doctrine" to defend their client. It opens up whole other can of worms!

IF GZ used the technical defense of stand your ground I believe he would of been convicted. He was never cross examined under oath and it would of been one judge deciding his fate.

tell you what... shoot an *unarmed person in a public place* who punches you and see if you go to jail.

Also... from the site you posted under "conditions of use"

The occupant(s) of the home must not have provoked or instigated an intrusion; or, provoked/instigated an intruder's threat or use of deadly force.

So if the castle doctrine is in play for GZ... then he is subject to these same conditions... as in "provoked/instigated"

Also note that it says "provoked/instigated an intruder's threat or use of deadly force" So for instance you have in intruder in your home... and you tell that intruder you are going to kill him... and he pulls a gun and shoots you first... will he be prosecuted for attempted murder? or will he be "justified" in defending his own life?

its like the people after a hurricane that put up signs announcing they are armed. "YOU LOOT WE SHOOT!" if indeed they shoot a looter it is viewed as pre-meditated murder!

legal mumbo jumbo is funny shit..... I suggest everyone who has a gun take a state approved NRA self defense course... They will help you all understand a lot better.

Put yourself in a defensive position tell the intruder you are armed and that the police are on their way. There is even a difference if you shoot an intruder more than once! If you shoot him twice and kill him... Was one bullet enough to stop the aggression? was two bullets over the line? 

you guys have to stop believing you can shoot unarmed people... GZ got lucky and that is all...

----------


## FloridaBorn

> If it's one-on-one and no witnesses are around, definitely shoot to kill: "The shooting brought attention to Florida’s expansive self-defense laws. The laws allow someone with a reasonable fear of great bodily harm or death to use lethal force, even if retreating from danger is an option. In court, *the gunman is given the benefit of the doubt*." http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/15/us...agewanted=all& And yes, I know SYG per se wasn't part of GZ's defense. Nonetheless, FL's SYG law is the reason the cops didn't press charges in the first place (because absent witnesses cops, too, give the gunman the benefit of the doubt), and Florida's self-defense provisions are not limited to SYG.


Hmm... In the middle of a townhouse community, on a walk in behind several units, well within ear shod and visual distance, at an evening hour and somehow Z knew there'd be no witnesses?? Very cleaver that guy, just based on that alone he should have been acquitted  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): ..

Lets not get any further off track then has already happened either as the police didn't bring charges against him because there was no case in their minds and oh look!!!! That decision was justified.. In the end it had naught to do with the SYG law...

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by mao say dung
> 
> 
> ^^Friends of mine in Canada are just howling over this, I guess like a lot of "left-liberals" or whatever they call themselves these days.
> 
> 
> "This" being what, exactly? It's unfortunate that the killing devolved, as it were, into a civil rights case, unless the so-called civil right is to carry firearms in public and act the part of tinpot vigilante. The exoneration of Zimmerman serves as encouragement to armed douchebags to look for trouble, a development that doesn't serve the cause of public safety for people of any race.


BTW he gets his gun back  :bananaman:  .........

----------


## FloridaBorn

> So George Zimmerman is a free guy now. Well, not exactly free, as from now on he will be looking over his shoulder all the time, never feeling safe ever again. Whether self-defence or not killing an unarmed teenager shouldnt have the door to heaven swing open for you.
> 
> I was just wondering: what country needs _armed volunteer neighbourhood watches_?
> 
> Have a close look:
> 
>    Armed volunteer?
>    Neighbourhood watch?
>    Armed neighbourhood?
> ...


Curious? How do you know they weren't/aren't armed? :Confused:

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
> 
> The travesty here is that the outcome of this trial might encourage more violence rather than deter it. If the burden of proof of self-defense was too severe in the past, the pendulum has apparently swung the other way. I disagree with activists who say that asserting this case isn't about race but weapons/self-defense laws is like saying lynching is about rope laws. If Z had come at Trayvon with a rope he would have received a thumping. Of course, if all he had was a rope El Gordo probably wouldn't have been quite so brave in the first place.
> 
> 
> And I guess that if Zimmerman had been 3-4 inches taller than Trayvon  instead of the opposite, the hotheaded potfueled teen-troubled gangsta  wannabe with gold teeth and tattoos calling himself "NO LIMIT  NIGGA" on social media, would have chosen to just run the last few yards  home to big Puff Daddy, instead he needlessly chose to stay and confront Zimmerman  and acted out his dreams of adult hard-man "fists of black steel" "no limit  nigga" gangsta, thinking in his youthful testosterone overconfident  dumbass ignorance, I'm bigger I can take this guy and physically hurt him, and that  is OK to do too  
> 
> ...


In your passionate fervor to write out your thoughts you forgot a few commas between some adjectives but otherwise spot on..  :Smile:  Another +10..

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Do you remember how many whites rioted when OJ got aquitted? Me neither.


No but i do remember vividly the beating one Reginold Denny took when he drove his truck through LA after the Rodney King trial.. I bring that up in spite of it being a bit apart (a police beating and the like) but what stands out to me is them repeatedly throwing bricks at him as hard as they could and hitting him squarely in the temple, celebrating like they just hit a 3 pointer in a pickup game of B ball and it's by the shear grace of some righteous black citizens saving his life by risking their own that he survived.

To the thugs and rioters who had no clue who he even was he was no better then a stray dog, probably even worse and yet this is supposed to be civilized? How is that excusable?? Not posed to you OP, just asking in general..

What is relevant  is that the brick was no different then the concrete sidewalk Mr. "T" was using to bash Z's head against..

----------


## Pound Hound

> by the shear grace of some righteous black citizens saving his life by risking their own that he survived.


THAT says more about the black people in LA than the ones rioting and doing the beating.




> What is relevant is that the brick was no different then the concrete sidewalk Mr. "T" was using to bash Z's head against..


again... Reginold Denny has severe brain trauma and a concussion... His fucking eyes are permanently crossed due to the blunt force trauma!

GZ needed 2 band-aides... I think you are not even in the same ballpark...

----------


## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by piwanoi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Warrior
> ...


 Firstly I did not label you as an appeaser otherwise I would not have wasted my time posting you the link , and two I said It MAY answer you question , not it will, bit of a difference I would suggest. :Smile:

----------


## robuzo

Some good points here, posted for the non-morons on TD, of which the number appears to be dwindling:
Law and Justice and George Zimmerman - Andrew Cohen - The Atlantic
What the verdict says, to the astonishment of tens of millions of us, is that you can go looking for trouble in Florida, with a gun and a great deal of racial bias, and you can find that trouble, and you can act upon that trouble in a way that leaves a young man dead, and none of it guarantees that you will be convicted of a crime. But this curious result says as much about Florida's judicial and legislative sensibilities as it does about Zimmerman's conduct that night. This verdict would not have occurred in every state. It might not even have occurred in any other state. But it occurred here, a tragic confluence that leaves a young man's untimely death unrequited under state law. Don't like it? Lobby to change Florida's laws.

If we understand and accept these legal limitations -- and perhaps only if we do -- the result here makes sense. Purely as a matter of law, you could say, it makes perfect sense. Florida's material, admissible, relevant proof against Zimmerman was not strong enough to overcome the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The eye-witnesses (and ear-witnesses) did not present a uniformly compelling case against the defendant. The police witnesses, normally chalk for prosecutors, did not help as much as they typically do. Nor was there compelling physical evidence establishing that Zimmerman had murderous intent and was not acting in self-defense.
---
Worth reading the whole thing at the link.

----------


## koman

^
What a complete load of bollocks.  How did George Zimmerman go looking for trouble?
He followed a suspicious "person" while on neighborhood watch to see what he was up to.  That's not looking for trouble, it's trying to prevent trouble in a development which had already experienced a whole series of burglaries....and he no doubt viewed is as part of the job. As it turned out it was an unwise move, but there is absolutely nothing to suggest that he was looking for trouble or had any intent to harm anyone.   He was confronted and physically assaulted by an alleged "child "who actually turned out to be a six foot three wannabe gangbanger with a track record and a really fucked up attitude.

All the physical evidence pointed to Zimmerman's version of events being accurate and truthful.  There were no "eye" witnesses or "ear" witnesses with an ounce of credibility.....  Physical and forensic evidence was there in abundance however and that's what compelled a jury to find him not guilty.   He defended himself and used a firearm to do so... period.  What he did was legal and proper under the circumstances no matter how much legal fine turning and race baiting bullshit you want to spin into the story.

You brainwashed, blinkered and guilt ridden saviours of the downtrodden and disadvantaged peoples of the world can never accept anything other than your own biased and usually pre-judged opinions....regardless of evidence.

First you spread a totally fabricated version of the occurrence complete with doctored photographs of the "child: and the "shooter:
Then you demanded an arrest....even though the police had no real evidence to hold the man.
Then you demanded a trial (justice)....and tried to manufacture evidence as well as supress the existing evidence in order to  get your "justice"
Then you managed to set up a judge who came within a heartbeat of creating a mistrial by bullying the accused and denying objections from the defence.     The same "unbiased" judge then went on to instruct the jury that it was basically OK to convict on something which Zimmerman had not actually been charged with.....fucking amazing.

When the jury finally came to the same conclusion every intelligent and unbiased person had already come to....you howl about the failure of the system.  Disregard all the known facts and evidence and just want to convict Zimmerman because the punk he shot happened to be black.  If the kid had been white we would not likely have ever heard about this event. 

In other words you all had Zimmerman convicted right from the opening salvo without access to any real evidence.....a fucking lynch mob calling for justice....when all they really wanted was to hang some white guy....who turned out not to be that white after all,  and at the same time create another martyr for the cause of African America.......

Now we have Obama sticking his nose into the mix calling for this case to be used as an example of how American needs his version of gun control...... even though the gun was legally owned and registered....and clearly used in self defence, as supported by evidence and upheld by the court.

----------


## Pound Hound

> What a complete load of bollocks. How did George Zimmerman go looking for trouble?


making sure he chambered a round and grabbed more clips before he left his truck... he was not going to pick some flowers....

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by Pound Hound
> 
> NO matter what you guys think and have said it is not legal to shoot someone who punches you!
> 
> 
> In some states it sure is and Florida is one of them. Also I know you lived in Washington state as well. Well guess what it is legal here as well. See here;
> 
> WPIC 17.05 Lawful ForceNo Duty To Retreat
> 
> ...


Ironically, just today, I had this exact same conversation with a client formerly from Washington. She was quite surprised after making some very critical comments directed towards Florida to find out this piece of enlightening information from me. It's amazing how many who have an opinion on this topic really have not the first clue of what they speak, education first would do them all a bit of good before posting or speaking of such rubbish..

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> by the shear grace of some righteous black citizens saving his life by risking their own that he survived.
> 
> 
> THAT says more about the black people in LA than the ones rioting and doing the beating.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gezz what utter nonsense, do you actually proof read the bollocks that comes out of your key board before posting it and does it actually still sound sensible to you?? I guess so since you press the post button..

Yeah! You're the one in another ball park!! You just don't get it!! He needed "2 band aids" (complete and utter bollocks understatement BTW) BECAUSE he shot the guy in self defense before he cracked his skull open!! What does it take for you to understand that??

You know? I have owned guns in the past for target shooting and the like, but I think it's time for me to buy one now to protect me and myself watching Al Simpleton opening his big mouth on TV again  :spam2: ..

----------


## FloridaBorn

Anyway I'm done with this topic, I came on to set some misinformation straight, and giver perspective from a local point of view and the trial is over with the proper outcome. I'm satisfied an innocent man was released and our rights to defend ourselves, our neighbors and homesteads are still in tact..

----------


## robuzo

Florida is a bloody mess. The case described below is in some ways more outrageous than the Martin killing. 6'4" 280-lb. Michael Dunn starts an argument with some black kids over excessively loud music, thinks he sees a gun and "fired 10 shots in a crowded shopping plaza because he felt threatened by the boys." He only managed to kill one (our resident white supremacists will surely be disappointed at the body count). He then returns to his hotel and orders a pizza, neglecting to call the cops. 

Read more: Stand Your Ground's Latest Victim: Jordan Davis | Culture News | Rolling Stone 
Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook

----------


## Albert Shagnastier

"Like, I was over in England. You    ever been to England, anyone, been to England? No one has handguns in England,    not even the cops. True or false? True. Now-in England last year, they had fourteen    deaths from handguns. FFFFFourteen. Now-the United States, and I think you know    how we feel about handguns-woooo, I'm getting a warm tingly feeling just saying    the fucking word, to be honest with you. I swear to you, I am hard. Twenty-three    thousand deaths from handguns. Now let's go through those numbers again, because    they're a little baffling at first glance. England, where no one has guns, fffffffourteen    deaths. United States, and I think you know how we feel about guns-woooo, I'm    getting a stiffy-twenty-three thousand deaths from handguns. But there's no    connection, and you'd be a fool and a Communist to make one. There's no connection    between having a gun and shooting someone with it, and not having a gun and    not shooting someone. There have been studies made and there is no connection    at all there."

Bill Hicks was spot on here.

----------


## Pound Hound

yup.. spent 10 years in Florida... 

Florida is a shit hole.... I would never go back. even to visit.

there is something in the water.....

you ever notice pieces on like stupid news almost all events happen in Florida? Its not a coincidence...

----------


## FloridaBorn

> ^
> What a complete load of bollocks.  How did George Zimmerman go looking for trouble?
> He followed a suspicious "person" while on neighborhood watch to see what he was up to.  That's not looking for trouble, it's trying to prevent trouble in a development which had already experienced a whole series of burglaries....and he no doubt viewed is as part of the job. As it turned out it was an unwise move, but there is absolutely nothing to suggest that he was looking for trouble or had any intent to harm anyone.   He was confronted and physically assaulted by an alleged "child "who actually turned out to be a six foot three wannabe gangbanger with a track record and a really fucked up attitude.
> 
> All the physical evidence pointed to Zimmerman's version of events being accurate and truthful.  There were no "eye" witnesses or "ear" witnesses with an ounce of credibility.....  Physical and forensic evidence was there in abundance however and that's what compelled a jury to find him not guilty.   He defended himself and used a firearm to do so... period.  What he did was legal and proper under the circumstances no matter how much legal fine turning and race baiting bullshit you want to spin into the story.
> 
> You brainwashed, blinkered and guilt ridden saviours of the downtrodden and disadvantaged peoples of the world can never accept anything other than your own biased and usually pre-judged opinions....regardless of evidence.
> 
> First you spread a totally fabricated version of the occurrence complete with doctored photographs of the "child: and the "shooter:
> ...


Yeah it's really easy for people to sit here and Monday morning quarterback saying in hind sight he should have stayed in the car, blah, blah, blah but in the end, bottom line may be that he may have made a misjudgment in not staying still but that wasn't illegal, wasn't what he was charged with and it didn't warrant him getting a beating for not doing so.. Once the  :shtf:  from that point on is the only relative pieces of this case that pertain to his legal responsibility and his reaction accordingly..

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Florida is a bloody mess. The case described below is in some ways more outrageous than the Martin killing. 6'4" 280-lb. Michael Dunn starts an argument with some black kids over excessively loud music, thinks he sees a gun and "fired 10 shots in a crowded shopping plaza because he felt threatened by the boys." He only managed to kill one (our resident white supremacists will surely be disappointed at the body count). He then returns to his hotel and orders a pizza, neglecting to call the cops. 
> 
> Read more: Stand Your Ground's Latest Victim: Jordan Davis | Culture News | Rolling Stone 
> Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook


Yes and I guess you know this from decades of actually living here?? Or more likely spoon fed through the media  ::chitown::  ....

Your focus if off base again,  I guess this is the result you'd rather have heard about? 



http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/Man-Sho...172624421.html

----------


## leemo

> ^
> What a complete load of bollocks.  How did George Zimmerman go looking for trouble?
> He followed a suspicious "person" while on neighborhood watch to see what he was up to.  That's not looking for trouble, it's trying to prevent trouble in a development which had already experienced a whole series of burglaries....and he no doubt viewed is as part of the job. As it turned out it was an unwise move, but there is absolutely nothing to suggest that he was looking for trouble or had any intent to harm anyone.   He was confronted and physically assaulted by an alleged "child "who actually turned out to be a six foot three wannabe gangbanger with a track record and a really fucked up attitude.
> 
> All the physical evidence pointed to Zimmerman's version of events being accurate and truthful.  There were no "eye" witnesses or "ear" witnesses with an ounce of credibility.....  Physical and forensic evidence was there in abundance however and that's what compelled a jury to find him not guilty.   He defended himself and used a firearm to do so... period.  What he did was legal and proper under the circumstances no matter how much legal fine turning and race baiting bullshit you want to spin into the story.
> 
> You brainwashed, blinkered and guilt ridden saviours of the downtrodden and disadvantaged peoples of the world can never accept anything other than your own biased and usually pre-judged opinions....regardless of evidence.
> 
> First you spread a totally fabricated version of the occurrence complete with doctored photographs of the "child: and the "shooter:
> ...


Someone green this lad for me, please.

----------


## leemo

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> What a complete load of bollocks. How did George Zimmerman go looking for trouble?
> 
> 
> making sure he chambered a round and grabbed more clips before he left his truck... he was not going to pick some flowers....


If I were an armed guard of an empty field I would still make sure I had enough ammo in the event it didn't stay that way. 

But I confess if I were fine tuned into the same bitter ideology of many posters here, I might make sure my clips were far away from me just in case they were ever needed.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> 
> ^
> What a complete load of bollocks.  How did George Zimmerman go looking for trouble?
> He followed a suspicious "person" while on neighborhood watch to see what he was up to.  That's not looking for trouble, it's trying to prevent trouble in a development which had already experienced a whole series of burglaries....and he no doubt viewed is as part of the job. As it turned out it was an unwise move, but there is absolutely nothing to suggest that he was looking for trouble or had any intent to harm anyone.   He was confronted and physically assaulted by an alleged "child "who actually turned out to be a six foot three wannabe gangbanger with a track record and a really fucked up attitude.
> 
> All the physical evidence pointed to Zimmerman's version of events being accurate and truthful.  There were no "eye" witnesses or "ear" witnesses with an ounce of credibility.....  Physical and forensic evidence was there in abundance however and that's what compelled a jury to find him not guilty.   He defended himself and used a firearm to do so... period.  What he did was legal and proper under the circumstances no matter how much legal fine turning and race baiting bullshit you want to spin into the story.
> 
> ...


Can't green anyone yet  :17:   :ssssh:  have to give one of these instead..  :goldcup:

----------


## Pound Hound

> Yeah! You're the one in another ball park!! You just don't get it!! He needed "2 band aids" (complete and utter bollocks understatement BTW) BECAUSE he shot the guy in self defense before he cracked his skull open!! What does it take for you to understand that??


the attending nurse who testified in the trial... said pussy boy needed 2 band aides for his life threatening injuries... the largest one a 1/4 inch scrape... its a fact and on record...

----------


## Pound Hound

> It's amazing how many who have an opinion on this topic really have not the first clue of what they speak, education first would do them all a bit of good before posting or speaking of such rubbish..


starting with you!!!!

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> Yeah! You're the one in another ball park!! You just don't get it!! He needed "2 band aids" (complete and utter bollocks understatement BTW) BECAUSE he shot the guy in self defense before he cracked his skull open!! What does it take for you to understand that??
> 
> 
> the attending nurse who testified in the trial... said pussy boy needed 2 band aides for his life threatening injuries... the largest one a 1/4 inch scrape... its a fact and on record...


Did somebody actually write "cracked his skull open"? The drunk idiot banker who went on a tirade about n-clangs to the black guy trying to help him stand up and wound up knocked out by a punch cracked his skull (photo here- Goldman Sachs: White Guy Punched For Yelling N-Word Never Worked For Us: Gothamist). By the way, as much as the asshole may have deserved a smack the brother who laid him out is up on charges, correctly IMO. 

Zimmerman was barely injured. If the young man actually had had any real boxing experience GZ would have been knocked out cold, but instead he got the "punch in the nose" famous at playgrounds everywhere. By the way, gun fetishists, the gat is usually effective only if you get it out before the other guy gets his out, cracks you over the head, stabs you, punches you in the throat, etc. Otherwise it is just going to be taken away from you, tough guy (unless you tangle with a skinny 17-year-old kid, maybe). Funny thing about Flawda is, you can conceal carry but you can't open carry- I suppose the lawmakers wanted to preserve the "surprise, I have a gun!" factor (they very well may have, since they are clearly insane), but had George showed off his weapon to Trayvon before the altercation he would have been breaking the law. Of course, we'll never know if he did or not.

----------


## Storekeeper

Anybody read juror B 37's comments yet on Yahoo? She said two jurors initially wanted manslaughter and one wanted second degree murder. And she also said she would be hesitant to have GZ as a neighborhood watch. There's more bollocks she said but, Fukc it ...

----------


## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> What a complete load of bollocks. How did George Zimmerman go looking for trouble?
> 
> 
> making sure he chambered a round and grabbed more clips before he left his truck... he was not going to pick some flowers....


Chambered a round, really.
Take it you know little about semi auto hand guns. You always chamber around pointing the weapon in a safe direction before you holster it. 
Ain't the movies where you get out of the car and pull the slide back for dramatic effect. Jim

----------


## koman

> Zimmerman was barely injured. If the young man actually had had any real boxing experience GZ would have been knocked out cold, but instead he got the "punch in the nose


The photographs clearly show his nose and lip bruised and bleeding as well as significant lacerations on the back of his head.   Those kinds of injuries are hardly a threat to life but add in the additional factors like being on the ground (pavement) on a dark and damp night,  with a six foot three hooded person of any race or color on top of you showing some serious signs of wanting to beat the life out of you......

Just what degree of injury are you supposed to absorb before you use whatever means available to prevent further injury and possibly save your life.   Just when does the act of self defence start?  

Armchair warriors on internet boards always find it so easy to belittle the pain, fear and survival instincts that are inherent in such a situation because they mostly never have to face anything more serious than getting a bad grade from their civic studies teacher. 

  Life behind the keyboard is full of machismo and great acts of courage....and one can drone on endlessly about all the "if's" "but's" and what might have been, if only.....

    Bottom line.....if the "child" had done what a "child" is supposed to do and just ran on home with his skittles instead of turning back to challenge and physically assault his alleged "stalker" there would be no story here.....end of.

----------


## HermantheGerman

> well... GZ was found not guilty because of a bad prosecution IMHO...
> 
> *NO matter what you guys think and have said it is not legal to shoot someone who punches you!*
> 
> I hope GZ stashes all that ishotanigger.com money... The Martins will get it real soon. Civil trials are far different from criminal trials. All they have to prove is what actions lead to the death of TM and GZ will have to take the stand....


Bad prosecution ?
Stashed all his money ?
Well........

(Reuters) - George  Zimmerman's chief defense lawyer on Monday called Florida prosecutors "a  disgrace to my profession" for holding back evidence for months and  pledged a new effort to impose sanctions against them.
............
Her office confirmed last week that it had  fired its information technology director, Ben Kruidbos, who had  testified in a pre-trial hearing that files he created with text  messages and images he retrieved from Martin's phone were not handed to  the defense.
Kruidbos testified  last month that he found embarrassing photos on Martin's phone that  included pictures of _a clump of jewelry on a bed, underage nude females,  marijuana plants and a hand holding a semi-automatic pistol._


Zimmerman's lawyer calls prosecutors 'disgrace' to profession | Reuters

----------


## Boon Mee

*Photo of Zimmerman's great-grandfather raises questions about racial profiling*



               An Orlando lawyer said he does not believe George Zimmerman's shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was racially motivated.
 CNN analyst Mark NeJame pointed to a black-and-white picture of a  family of three, including a dark-skinned man he claims was Zimmerman's  great-grandfather.

He also identified a woman pictured standing above the man as  Zimmerman's grandmother, and a small child in the man's arms as  Zimmerman's mother.
 Speaking to News 13 Friday, NeJame said the photo was just one piece  among many that led him to change his mind about whether Zimmerman was  racially profiling Trayvon Martin.

"If President Obama says his son would have looked like Trayvon  Martin, then if you look at these pictures, his grandparents and  great-grandparents would have looked like George Zimmerman's  grandparents and great-grandparents," NeJame said during an appearance  Thursday on CNN's "Piers Morgan Tonight."
 Before Zimmerman was arrested, President Barack Obama briefly commented on the case, calling the Trayvon Martin's death a tragedy, and adding that if he had a son, he might have looked like Martin.

Photo of Zimmerman's great-grandfather raises questions about racial profiling | News 13

----------


## Necron99

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> Zimmerman was barely injured. If the young man actually had had any real boxing experience GZ would have been knocked out cold, but instead he got the "punch in the nose
> 
> 
> The photographs clearly show his nose and lip bruised and bleeding as well as significant lacerations on the back of his head.   Those kinds of injuries are hardly a threat to life but add in the additional factors like being on the ground (pavement) on a dark and damp night,  with a six foot three hooded person of any race or color on top of you showing some serious signs of wanting to beat the life out of you......
> 
> Just what degree of injury are you supposed to absorb before you use whatever means available to prevent further injury and possibly save your life.   Just when does the act of self defence start?  
> 
> ...




Bottom line: Losing a fight is not a reason to kill someone in self defense (legally)
The whole question of self defense is determined by who initiated the confrontation.
While from what was offered we can surmise that the fat guy did so, it can't be proven in law.
There is only one person who knows who started the physical contact and he ain't talking.

FACT.

You can surmise that the kid just decided to beat on some skin head a few hundred feet from where he was saying, but it seems unlikely to any neutral observer that someone who do that.

You could also surmise that the fat guy went looking for a hero moment and tried to make a citizens arrest, he'll maybe even grabbed the guy to stop him walking away..
This is a much more likely scenario, but as we saw, he ain't talking.

----------


## leemo

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> Yeah! You're the one in another ball park!! You just don't get it!! He needed "2 band aids" (complete and utter bollocks understatement BTW) BECAUSE he shot the guy in self defense before he cracked his skull open!! What does it take for you to understand that??
> 
> 
> the attending nurse who testified in the trial... said pussy boy needed 2 band aides for his life threatening injuries... the largest one a 1/4 inch scrape... its a fact and on record...


Several "facts on record" in this case have turned out on closer scrutiny to be knowing, willful and deliberate lies, statements and manipulations, from DC and Corey on through pious white-hating black leaders and down to the gutter media.

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by robuzo
> ...


You can surmise anything you like......but in a murder trial it's facts and the preponderance of evidence that counts....not conjecture and what if's

----------


## leemo

> Originally Posted by Pound Hound
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by koman
> ...


You mean it's not real when the baddie has the hero at gunpoint and explains the entire plot before clicking off the safety catch to shoot but is attacked in the nick of time and ends up firing into the roof?

----------


## Fluke

> the attending nurse who testified in the trial... said pussy boy needed 2 band aides for his life threatening injuries... the largest one a 1/4 inch scrape... its a fact and on record...

----------


## harrybarracuda

Yeah, the defence's favourite photo. Now lets see what EMS said.





You might believe the tosh the defence trotted out, but the facts don't support it.

He lost a fight and shot the kid in anger and embarrassment, end of.

The only evidence of who attacked who is from Zimmerman's lying mouth.

----------


## leemo

> Bottom line: Losing a fight is not a reason to kill someone in self defense (legally)


Not if you're under Queensberry rules. Other influencing factors might be that in those critical moments Zimmerman a) thought he was in danger of ending up in need of more than a couple of plasters, and b) Z's understandable panic and perhaps outrage, knowing in his own mind that the physical side of the confrontation was kicked off by his assailant's attitude rather than any physical threat or posture on his part. 

It's not what happened that matters as much as what he believed, or perceived.





> The whole question of self defense is determined by who initiated the confrontation.


Is it, really? If I initiate a confrontation by calling you a ho, or even threatening to do you in with an iron bar, does that give you the right to shoot me? 

Of course not. But when I pick up that iron bar and come at you, then your response is out of my control and with any sense at all I should be hoping you don't have a gun.





> While from what was offered we can surmise that the fat guy did so, it can't be proven in law. There is only one person who knows who started the physical contact and he ain't talking.


Surmise away, but that's the law. Was a case some time back, sounds like a movie plot, of a twin that murdered someone in front of several witnesses. Both twins remained silent, case dismissed and both walked.





> You could also surmise that the fat guy went looking for a hero moment and tried to make a citizens arrest, he'll maybe even grabbed the guy to stop him walking away..
> 
> This is a much more likely scenario, but as we saw, he ain't talking.


Ok, let's entertain your 'likely scenario' that the fat guy decided to become a hero with a citizens' arrest, but for what? - being in possession of Skittles whilst Black isn't usually a crime. But just for you, let's surmise it is, in which case doesn't Z's desire for that 'hero moment' with a citizens' arrest suggest that he intended to take a rightful, peaceful and legal course?

----------


## Fluke

> Yeah, the defence's favourite photo. Now lets see what EMS said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You might believe the tosh the defence trotted out, but the facts don't support it.
> 
> He lost a fight and shot the kid in anger and embarrassment, end of.
> ...


  Are you saying that Zimmerman  didnt get injured or that Zimmerman  lost a fight ?
  Or that Zimmerman lost a fight wothout getting injured ?

----------


## piwanoi

I thought the fight was still in progress when Martin got shot and there was no way anyone know's how it would have finished up if Z had,nt have shot him ,, it was then and only then that there was a winner and a loser !

----------


## Necron99

[QUOTE=koman;2509257][QUOTE=Necron99;2509246]


> The whole question of self defense is determined by who initiated the confrontation.
> 
> Yes and all the evidence points to Zimmerman being attacked and having to react....which he did.



No evidence at all indicates that Zimmerman was attacked. It indicates that he got his ass handed to him, that's all.
It says nothing about who initiated the fight.

----------


## piwanoi

[QUOTE=Necron99;2509303][QUOTE=koman;2509257]


> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> 
> 
> The whole question of self defense is determined by who initiated the confrontation.
> 
> Yes and all the evidence points to Zimmerman being attacked and having to react....which he did.
> 
> 
> ...


 Why would Z attack him when he was carrying a sidearm and  risk having it taken off him or accidentally discharged ? , all Z had to do was pull his gun on him and there would have been no fight in the first place  :Smile:

----------


## Fluke

> The only evidence of who attacked who is from Zimmerman's lying mouth.


  If only one person knows what happened, as you say, then you cannot logically claim that he is lying .
  If two people give to differing accounts , then you can logically claim one of them is lying .

----------


## Necron99

^ that's about the stupidest thing I have ever read.
The world is dumber for you having posted it.

----------


## robuzo

The emotional investment the white supremacists have in this case seems to have completely destroyed their capacity for logical reasoning.

----------


## Necron99

[QUOTE=piwanoi;2509307][QUOTE=Necron99;2509303]


> Originally Posted by Necron99
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by koman
> ...



Why would the kid attack a complete stranger a few hundred feet from where he was staying, on his way back from buying skittles and iced tea?

Someone provoked a fight. We don't know who, how or why. But actual evidence suggests Zim did. If the fat fuck had obeyed training and instruction from 911, none of this would have happened.

The kid had no training in how to walk on the sidewalk without getting shot by a cop wannabe. He also wasn't told by 911 to behave in a certain way.

----------


## Necron99

Just an aside.
I'm pro gun rights.
I'm pro the use of lethal force in defense of my life.

He WAS NOT FOUND INNOCENT.
He was found not guilty.
If you don't know the difference between those two concepts then you should not be commenting.

----------


## koman

[QUOTE=Necron99;2509303][QUOTE=koman;2509257]


> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> 
> 
> The whole question of self defense is determined by who initiated the confrontation.
> 
> Yes and all the evidence points to Zimmerman being attacked and having to react....which he did.
> 
> 
> ...



How did he "get his ass handed to him"?    Why was the gunshot at point blank range according to the forensic results?    How can anyone continue to think Zimmerman attacked Martin when he was the only one with any bodily injuries   Martin had only a gunshot wound,  whereas Zimmerman had the marks of an attack all over his face and head FFS....  

Here we have a group of people on TD who blindly refuse to accept forensic evidence, police statements, sworn testimony, and the findings of a jury (who listened and weighed all the evidence presented)  and continue to harp on about this event as if they had been there.  

  Even the evidence concerning someone calling for help and the question of which one of them was doing the calling was pretty much dealt with by forensics.......the powder marks and entry wound indicated that the shot had come from below and that the recipient of the shot was leaning over the shooter with some of his clothing hanging downwards.....exactly as Zimmerman had described.    That from a forensic pathologist and expert in ballistics.....it's all in the trial transcript.....but lets keep pretending the "child" was just stalked and murdered regardless.....makes the average guilt ridden left-wing fuckwit feel more comfortable.... :mid: 

Next ya all will be telling us it was a rigged jury.. hand picked by the tea party..... :smiley laughing:

----------


## piwanoi

^^^Oh I see , every one who gets mugged with violence the attacker and victim are well acquainted with each other :rofl:  , all the more reason to attack some one if they do not know who you are ,and as stated earlier why should Z attack him when he;s he's carrying a sidearm? It just  does not  make any sense

----------


## Necron99

^^ yeah, all that indicates Zim got his ass handed to him. Are you simple?

Lets game it out.
If a guy looking like Zim with no legal authority or ID grabbed you or otherwise tried to physically restrain you from going about your lawful business, when you were in a strange neighborhood what would your reaction be Koman?

I know what mine would be if you touched or grabbed me.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Are you saying that Zimmerman  didnt get injured or that Zimmerman  lost a fight ?
>   Or that Zimmerman lost a fight wothout getting injured ?


Sorry, I didn't realise English wasn't your first language.

Zimmerman's injuries were insignificant. The medical report is there for you read.

Unless you think he injured himself, you can assume Martin gave him a slap or two and he went down.

You can also assume this is the point at which he shot Martin. There is no evidence to suggest that Martin "went for his gun".

And I am still interested in the following unanswered question: "Zimmerman’s account that he had placed Martin’s arms out to his sides after the shooting contradicts a photo taken after the shooting that shows Martin’s arms under his body."

Actually I think I've just solved the question of who was shouting "Help!": Both of them.

What's the betting Zimmerman was squealing "Help Help" while this 17 year old was bitch slapping him. Then Martin did a pisstake "Help Help" and Zimmerman shot him out of rage.

It would explain why both mothers claimed they heard their respective sons squealing.

I should be a lawyer, I'm good at this shit.

 :rofl:

----------


## robuzo

^Under Florida law if you bag a teenager legally you are allowed to pose him as you like.

----------


## piwanoi

> ^^ yeah, all that indicates Zim got his ass handed to him. Are you simple?
> 
> Lets game it out.
> If a guy looking like Zim with no legal authority or ID grabbed you or otherwise tried to physically restrain you from going about your lawful business, when you were in a strange neighborhood what would your reaction be Koman?
> 
> I know what mine would be if you touched or grabbed me.


 For the third time why should Z want to physically restrain him and start a fight when he's carrying a sidearm ? .

----------


## Fluke

> Originally Posted by Fluke
> 
> 
>   Are you saying that Zimmerman  didnt get injured or that Zimmerman  lost a fight ?
>   Or that Zimmerman lost a fight wothout getting injured ?
> 
> 
> Sorry, I didn't realise English wasn't your first language.
> 
> ...


  If you were any good at "this shit" , then you would indeed be a Lawyer , But as you arent any good at "this shit" is the reason why you are NOT a Lawyer

----------


## Fluke

> ^ that's about the stupidest thing I have ever read.
> The world is dumber for you having posted it.


  Just saying that you cannot logically dispute what a person says was said during  an incident when they are the only living person left who  heard what was said .

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by Necron99
> 
> 
> ^ that's about the stupidest thing I have ever read.
> The world is dumber for you having posted it.
> 
> 
>   Just saying that you cannot logically dispute what a person says was said during  an incident when they are the only living person left who  heard what was said .


WTF? Of course you can.

If I said to you I just saw a glowing purple spacecraft from Neptune get eaten by a T-Rex, you wouldn't dispute it?

Duh.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> If you were any good at "this shit" , then you would indeed be a Lawyer , But as you arent any good at "this shit" is the reason why you are NOT a Lawyer


Well I'm better at it than that shit prosecution team, that's for sure.

If I'd been on the case, Zimmerman's cellmates would already be lighting up the post-coital lucky strikes.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Zimmerman Verdict: The Slave Patrol Is Alive and Well in Florida
Monday, 15 July 2013 13:26
By The Daily Take, The Thom Hartmann Program | Op-Ed

George Zimmerman kept close watch over his neighborhood.
When Black men walked or even drove through the area, he alerted the police, over and over and over again.
Finally, exasperated that “they always” got away, he went out on a rainy night armed with a loaded gun and the Stand Your Ground law, looking for anybody who should not be in his largely White neighborhood.

The South has a long history of this sort of thing. Today they’re called Neighborhood Watches. They used to be called Slave Patrols.
Prior to the Civil War and Reconstruction, the main way Southern states maintained the institution of slavery was through local and statewide militias, also known as “Slave Patrols.”  These Patrols were, in many states, required monthly duty for southern white men between the ages of 17 and 47, be they slave-owners or not.

Slave patrollers traveled, usually on horseback [the modern equivalent would be in a car], through the countryside looking for African-Americans who were “not where they belong.” When the patrollers found Black people in places where they “did not belong,” punishment ranged from beatings, to repatriation to their slave owners, to death by being whipped, hung or shot.

Some of the most comprehensive reports on the nature and extent of the Slave Patrols came from interviews done by the WPA (the Works Progress Administration, a New Deal program created by FDR) during the Great Depression. At that time, former slaves and the children of former slaves were still alive and had stories to tell, and the WPA put people to work in the American South gathering and documenting those stories.
 The WPA’s Georgia Writers Project, Savannah Unit, produced a brilliant summary of stories taken from people who were alive (most as children) during the time of slavery, about their and their families interactions with slave patrollers. The report’s title was “Drums and Shadows: survival stories among the Georgia coastal Negroes,”

 Many other oral and written histories compiled by the WPA Writers Project are now maintained by the library of Congress.
Dozens of other similar reports, as well as detailed state-by-state studies of slave patrols, even including membership rosters, are published in Sally E. Hadden’s brilliant book “Slave Patrols: Law and Violence in Virginia and the Carolinas.”

 Hadden cites numerous stories and scores of sources about how the slave patrollers would beat, whip, or otherwise abuse African-Americans who were found off the plantation. Women were routinely subjected to rape, and men were usually beaten with sticks or whips.  Hadden writes of the stories compiled by the WPA:

“Slaves might beg to be left out of a whipping from the patrol, hoping that mercy or caprice might avert a beating. Patrollers sometimes toyed with a slave, threatening a whipping, then let the slaves go free. The inherent arbitrariness of punishment added to the fear most slaves felt when they encountered slave patrols.”

“One former bondsmen [slave], Alex Woods, recalled how a patrol reacted to a begging slave. He said that the patrollers ‘wouldn't allow [slaves] to call on de Lord when dey were wippin’ ‘em but they let ‘em say, “Oh! pray, Oh! pray, marster.”’
“The harsh punishment a patrol could administer caused one former slave to like meeting the patrol with being sold to a new master – a slave would seek to avoid both fates at any cost. Few things compared to the agony a slave endured from a patroller beating. One ex-slave from South Carolina recalled what people heard when she was born: her mother ‘screamed as if she were being beaten by patrollers.’”  
The National Humanities Center reprinted an 1857 account by Austin Steward, who escaped slavery in 1813. Titled “Slaves and Slave Patrol,” Steward opens the account with this summary:  

“Slaves are never allowed to leave the plantation to which they belong, without a written pass. Should anyone venture to disobey this law, he will most likely be caught by the patrol and given thirty-nine lashes. This patrol is always on duty every Sunday, going to each plantation under their supervision, entering every slave cabin, and examining closely the conduct of the slaves; and if they find one slave from another plantation without a pass, he is immediately punished with a severe flogging.”

He then goes on to tell several harrowing stories of personal encounters with the slave patrol, including one that led to the death of six slaves, and reprints the North Carolina Slave Patrol regulations as follows:

SLAVE PATROL REGULATIONS, ROWAN COUNTY, NORTH CAROLINA, 1825
1st. Patrols shall be appointed, at least four in each Captain's district.
2d. It shall be their duty, for two of their number, at least, to patrol their respective districts once in every week; in failure thereof, they shall be subject to the penalties prescribed by law.
3d. They shall have power to inflict corporal punishment, if two be present agreeing thereto.
4th. One patroller shall have power to seize any negro slave who behaves insolently to a patroller, or otherwise unlawfully or suspiciously; and hold such slave in custody until he can bring together a requisite number of Patrollers to act in the business.
5th. Previous to entering on their duties, Patrols shall call on some acting magistrate, and take the following oath, to wit: "I, A. B. appointed one of the Patrol by the County Court of Rowan, for Captain B's company, do hereby swear, that I will faithfully execute the duties of a Patroller, to the best of my ability, according to law and the regulations of the County Court.”

The National Humanities Center has many other similar reports in its archives.

Slave Patrols were a regular feature of the South, from its first settlement by slave-owning Europeans until the decades after Reconstruction.
When slavery was abolished, but Whites in the South still wanted to keep Blacks “in their place,” the Slave Patrols were largely replaced by (or simply renamed as) the KKK, small-town sheriffs, stop-and-frisk policies, and, apparently, “Neighborhood Watch.”

Slave Patrollers rarely stopped or molested white people. But when Blacks were found in unexpected places, they could expect a swift and severe punishment.
And the legal systems of the South, largely without exception, backed up the Slave Patrollers and their post-reconstruction heirs.
It appears that the more things change - at least in the deep South - the more they stay the same.

Zimmerman Verdict: The Slave Patrol Is Alive and Well in Florida

----------


## Boon Mee

^^
 :WeAreNotWorthy:

----------


## Boon Mee

> Zimmerman's injuries were insignificant. The medical report is there for you read.




And that's what a jury of his peers did!  :Very Happy:

----------


## Fluke

> Zimmerman Verdict: The Slave Patrol Is Alive and Well in Florida
> Monday, 15 July 2013 13:26
> By The Daily Take, The Thom Hartmann Program | Op-Ed
> 
> George Zimmerman kept close watch over his neighborhood.
> When Black men walked or even drove through the area, he alerted the police, over and over and over again.
> Finally, exasperated that they always got away, he went out on a rainy night armed with a loaded gun and the Stand Your Ground law, looking for anybody who should not be in his largely White neighborhood.
> 
> The South has a long history of this sort of thing. Today theyre called Neighborhood Watches. They used to be called Slave Patrols.
> ...


  Damn.......if only Zimmerman was White .

----------


## robuzo

Z is white Hispanic, numbskull.

----------


## leemo

Not if a white man kills one, then it's black.

----------


## jamescollister

Round and round it goes, Zimmerman was indited for murder because. On a dark rainy night he got in his car saw a black child. He got out and stalked his victim like a deer. When in position Zim fired from 2 meters away, killing an angelic black kid off 11 years old. A kid the President of the USA would have liked as a son.

A right wing bigoted  jury acquitted him, these are the facts, all that stuff called evidence don't count, Zimmernan should fry. Jim

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> Zimmerman's injuries were insignificant. The medical report is there for you read.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And that's what a jury of his peers did!


I think it was the sight of O'Mara gently laying down the black dummy for a bit of man love that did it.

----------


## Fluke

> Z is white Hispanic, numbskull.


  No it isnt , The USA has two different racial categorys, one is White American and the other is  Hispanic White , White and Hispanic White are two different things .

----------


## piwanoi

> Round and round it goes, Zimmerman was indited for murder because. On a dark rainy night he got in his car saw a black child. He got out and stalked his victim like a deer. When in position Zim fired from 2 meters away, killing an angelic black kid off 11 years old. A kid the President of the USA would have liked as a son.
> 
> A right wing bigoted  jury acquitted him, these are the facts, all that stuff called evidence don't count, Zimmernan should fry. Jim


 Yeah quite true Jim obviously a cold blooded murder with racist undertones and although Zimmerman was packing a piece of hardware, he chose to attack a guy far bigger than himself of which he had his head smashed into the concrete and his face pummeled to make it more convincing to the jury of Ultra right wing sympathizers that he acted in self defense , totally ridiculous and I agree with Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson plus the baying black mob who was paid for by the tax payer that Zimmerman should (in the interests of justice) :rofl:   have been  found Guilty and burn  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## chingching

florida 'stand your ground' laws exonerate him on all counts . theyre playing the black card as usual ,such as the Michael Jackson case when he in fact killed himself .
and the doc was put away .
he is a spic so why the racism charge .

----------


## piwanoi

Yeah its true  ya know according to the left wing intelligentsia only whites are capable of racism and the thousands of black on white murders in the US are for some other reason ,anything but brand them as racists as they do not comprehend what the word means , and "cracker" , "Whitey" and "honky" are just words to describe us and are certainly not racist in any shape or form  :rofl:   Interesting link and video which of course cannot be correct as it points out a few home truths  :Smile: Black Kills Whites to

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> Zimmerman Verdict: The Slave Patrol Is Alive and Well in Florida
> Monday, 15 July 2013 13:26
> By The Daily Take, The Thom Hartmann Program | Op-Ed
> 
> George Zimmerman kept close watch over his neighborhood.
> When Black men walked or even drove through the area, he alerted the police, over and over and over again.
> ...


Exactly.  :smiley laughing:

----------


## Cujo

> Yeah its true  ya know according to the left wing intelligentsia only whites are capable of racism and the thousands of black on white murders in the US are for some other reason ,anything but brand them as racists as they do not comprehend what the word means , and "cracker" , "Whitey" and "honky" are just words to describe us and are certainly not racist in any shape or form   Interesting link and video which of course cannot be correct as it points out a few home truths Black Kills Whites to


Maybe it's time to use this thread for examples of black on white crimes where the perp was acquited.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> he had his head smashed into the concrete and his face pummeled


Again: Look at the EMS report. His injuries were minor and not representative of either having his head "smashed into the concrete" or "his face pummeled".

Your argument is somewhat weakened by the drama queen exaggerations.

----------


## RickThai

> Originally Posted by piwanoi
> 
> 
> he had his head smashed into the concrete and his face pummeled
> 
> 
> Again: Look at the EMS report. His injuries were minor and not representative of either having his head "smashed into the concrete" or "his face pummeled".
> 
> Your argument is somewhat weakened by the drama queen exaggerations.


So are you suggesting that Zimmerman should have waited until his "slight concussion" turned into permanent brain injury?

(Perhaps thats would you did in the past, which might explain your distorted logic?)

Good Grief!

RickThai

----------


## Teflon Don

Between the minute this black criminal got shot and the verdict was handed down, 10,000 black men were murdered across the USA. Most of them black against black.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> Yeah! You're the one in another ball park!! You just don't get it!! He needed "2 band aids" (complete and utter bollocks understatement BTW) BECAUSE he shot the guy in self defense before he cracked his skull open!! What does it take for you to understand that??
> 
> 
> the attending nurse who testified in the trial... said pussy boy needed 2 band aides for his life threatening injuries... the largest one a 1/4 inch scrape... its a fact and on record...


You really are a fecking idiot aren't you? Do you have the first clue about human anatomy? Cuts are created on a human scalp where pressure points of the impact happen and because the skull is round and the bone uneven that creates small contact points and therefore small cuts it has not a single thing to do with how hard his head was slammed against it  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  .. It's just by mere fortune that his skull wasn't cracked but that certainly was the thugs intent..

BTW she's a NURSE not a doctor and your an idiot not a forensic scientist obviously.. the idiocy here wears me out, time to leave it to those with more patience for savants..

----------


## Cujo

> Between the minute this black criminal got shot and the verdict was handed down, 10,000 black men were murdered across the USA. Most of them black against black.


He wasn't a criminal.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by Pound Hound
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by koman
> ...


He's really showing himself to be an idiot savant on more than one occasion here, as are several others..

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by robuzo
> ...


It is if the fight is still taking place since it is unknown to the victim being attacked the extent of the beating, if he came back after it was definitely over and all parties involved left the scene (or one did at least)and one came back like that pussy Brit did there in Thailand then that's a different situation entirely..

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by Necron99
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by koman
> ...


 :goldcup: ...

----------


## Pound Hound

> Originally Posted by Pound Hound
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> ...


and you are neither a doctor or a nurse... but still an idiot... and he only needed 2 band-aides for his scrape on the pavement.. she does not have to be a forensics expert to put on 2 band aides, give him kiss on the head and a lollipop on his way out the door...

btw... Do you have one of those great bumper stickers that say "Proud Florida Cracker" on your car? For some reason I bet your do...

----------


## Pound Hound

and FB... your comment yesterday about me not being able to "afford to live in Florida"

you do realize I live in Honolulu? You know one of the most expensive places on earth? A place *you* could not afford to pitch a tent on a beach!

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Yeah, the defence's favourite photo. Now lets see what EMS said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You might believe the tosh the defence trotted out, but the facts don't support it.
> 
> He lost a fight and shot the kid in anger and embarrassment, end of.
> ...






Here's real contextual photos the day after the confrontation instead of weeks after he healed like most of the others displayed and Z's explanation which is corroborated by even the prosecution witnesses. 

Notice both of his severely blackened eyes, the "band aids" on the back of his head are actually butterfly closures which are used in place of stitches when the wound is not as deep and it is in a difficult location, of course if it were any deeper on the scalp it'd be into his skull and brain tissue..

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by Necron99
> 
> 
> Bottom line: Losing a fight is not a reason to kill someone in self defense (legally)
> 
> 
> Not if you're under Queensberry rules. Other influencing factors might be that in those critical moments Zimmerman a) thought he was in danger of ending up in need of more than a couple of plasters, and b) Z's understandable panic and perhaps outrage, knowing in his own mind that the physical side of the confrontation was kicked off by his assailant's attitude rather than any physical threat or posture on his part. 
> 
> It's not what happened that matters as much as what he believed, or perceived.
> ...


Glad someone has the time, patience and energy to address the senselessness of these posts line by line  :Smile: .. It's not me  ::chitown:: ....

----------


## FloridaBorn

> I thought the fight was still in progress when Martin got shot and there was no way anyone know's how it would have finished up if Z had,nt have shot him ,, it was then and only then that there was a winner and a loser !


 :goldcup:

----------


## Pound Hound

> the "band aids" on the back of his head are actually butterfly closures which are used in place of stitches when the wound is not as deep and it is in a difficult location, of course if it were any deeper on the scalp it'd be into his skull and brain tissue..


where do your see butterfly closures on the back of his head? 

the attending nurse said 2 band aides in court. FACT and undisputed!! except by you...

we all know stitches on the head will poke into your brain...

you sir are a fucking riot!!!!

----------


## FloridaBorn

[QUOTE=piwanoi;2509307][QUOTE=Necron99;2509303]


> Originally Posted by Necron99
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by koman
> ...


Gosh too much sensibility and logic is going to make their heads explode.......................................















.......................................Never mind they still won't get it................

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> the "band aids" on the back of his head are actually butterfly closures which are used in place of stitches when the wound is not as deep and it is in a difficult location, of course if it were any deeper on the scalp it'd be into his skull and brain tissue..
> 
> 
> where do your see butterfly closures on the back of his head? 
> 
> the attending nurse said 2 band aides in court. FACT and undisputed!! except by you...
> 
> ...


What are these, dumb ass!!  :kma: 



Rather large ones at that...

I guess you haven't had the brain power to view the reenactment 24 hours after the confrontation, when you do maybe then you'll be able to have an educated opinion on the topic. doubtful though  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): ....


Give up, you can't keep up..
Stitches on the head poke into the brain?? Are you serious right now???  :rofl:  :smiley laughing:

----------


## FloridaBorn

> and FB... your comment yesterday about me not being able to "afford to live in Florida"
> 
> you do realize I live in Honolulu? You know one of the most expensive places on earth? A place *you* could not afford to pitch a tent on a beach!


Honolulu eh? Plenty of broke, uneducated surfers live in Hawaii without a pot to piss in, given your list of locations of homestead by the surf more likely you're one of those.  :Smile:

----------


## Pound Hound

> Originally Posted by Pound Hound
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by koman
> ...


always chamber a round? really? really?

you *do not have to* chamber a round before it goes in your holster... you can load the clip and place it your holster... walking around ready to fire is not exactly safe. Nor is it standard procedure for law enforcement. We live in a civilized society... its not the old west Jim...

let me ask you Jim... do you always chamber a round before you put in your holster? Do you have a C&C permit?

all I can say is don't stand next to me at the grocery store... you live dangerously...

----------


## Pound Hound

> Originally Posted by Pound Hound
> 
> 
> and FB... your comment yesterday about me not being able to "afford to live in Florida"
> 
> you do realize I live in Honolulu? You know one of the most expensive places on earth? A place *you* could not afford to pitch a tent on a beach!
> 
> 
> Honolulu eh? Plenty of broke, uneducated surfers live in Hawaii without a pot to piss in, given your list of locations of homestead by the surf more likely you're one of those.


sure I am.... 

have you actually ever been to Honolulu?

----------


## FloridaBorn

[QUOTE=koman;2509323][QUOTE=Necron99;2509303]


> Originally Posted by Necron99
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by koman
> ...


Let's not forget the busted knuckles on Mr. T from either missing his punches thrown at Z on the concrete or holding his head while smashing into the concrete..

----------


## Pound Hound

> Originally Posted by Pound Hound
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> ...


 

they are still just band-aides... with a funny H shape... if they were huge gashes as you claim he would of received stiches...

you act like these bandages are replacing stiches... they are not...

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Pound Hound
> ...


Another post based on ignorance of the case. He was trained by the agent friend to chamber a round so he had a full clip plus one and this pistol which was also recommended to him by the same friend had no safety so it is immediately ready to use without delay..

Like I said give up, you can't keep up, your beer is getting warm..

----------


## Pound Hound

[quote=FloridaBorn;2509709][quote=koman;2509323]


> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Necron99
> ...


ok again... where were his busted knuckles entered into evidence? The coroner said they did not do any testing of his knuckles.. this requires cutting open his fingers and testing the bone. they did not do this.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Pound Hound
> ...


FFS not worth my time....

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Fluke
> ...


They've lost and now the insults and denials come out. Not to worry, in the end the real justice and righteousness was served and now they're licking their wounds as they have no other fall back position to maintain their dignity of choosing the wrong side.  :Smile:

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> Zimmerman's injuries were insignificant. The medical report is there for you read.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And that's what a jury of his peers did!


Well done!  :goldcup:

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by piwanoi
> 
> 
> he had his head smashed into the concrete and his face pummeled
> 
> 
> Again: Look at the EMS report. His injuries were minor and not representative of either having his head "smashed into the concrete" or "his face pummeled".
> 
> Your argument is somewhat weakened by the drama queen exaggerations.


Yeah too bad for Z they weren't on the scene to referee and call for periodic breaks in the fight to check if he had gray matter spilling out all over yet!!  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by piwanoi
> ...


 :smiley laughing:  :smiley laughing:

----------


## Begbie

> No stitches were needed to close the head cuts, which he was advised to clean with soap and water daily. Zimmerman reported no headaches, blurred vision or loss of hearing.


A couple of scrapes and those were plasters in the picture.

----------


## FloridaBorn

[QUOTE=Pound Hound;2509712][quote=FloridaBorn;2509709]


> Originally Posted by Necron99
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by koman
> ...


Not fractured, busted, you simpleton.......Busted skin on the surface, FFS I can't debate with...........................Ah never mind................ Again can't keep up, you should just give up.....

----------


## FloridaBorn

> No stitches were needed to close the head cuts, which he was advised to clean with soap and water daily. Zimmerman reported no headaches, blurred vision or loss of hearing.
> 			
> 		
> 
> A couple of scrapes and those were plasters in the picture.


The proper medical term and not the street corner term for them is "butterfly closures" as previously stated not plasters..

----------


## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by piwanoi
> 
> 
> Yeah its true  ya know according to the left wing intelligentsia only whites are capable of racism and the thousands of black on white murders in the US are for some other reason ,anything but brand them as racists as they do not comprehend what the word means , and "cracker" , "Whitey" and "honky" are just words to describe us and are certainly not racist in any shape or form   Interesting link and video which of course cannot be correct as it points out a few home truths Black Kills Whites to
> 
> 
> Maybe it's time to use this thread for examples of black on white crimes where the perp was acquited.


 OJ for openers :Smile:

----------


## Storekeeper

Book deal for juror B37 dropped by the publisher.

Is it true Zimmerman's Dad is a judge ... anybody know?

I'm still scratching my head over the juror's post trial statement.

----------


## FloridaBorn

So here ya go, bleeding hearts how about this perspective? A bit of food for you to gnaw on..

New Talking Point: Trayvon Was the Bigot, As He Thought Zimmerman Was Gay

New Talking Point: Trayvon Was the Bigot, As He Thought Zimmerman Was Gay - Elspeth Reeve - The Atlantic Wire

----------


## Storekeeper

> So here ya go, bleeding hearts how about this perspective? A bit of food for you to gnaw on..
> 
> New Talking Point: Trayvon Was the Bigot, As He Thought Zimmerman Was Gay
> 
> New Talking Point: Trayvon Was the Bigot, As He Thought Zimmerman Was Gay - Elspeth Reeve - The Atlantic Wire


Guess I'm not the only one with a "skewed perspective" ...  :Smile:

----------


## leemo

> Between the minute this black criminal got shot and the verdict was handed down, 10,000 black men were murdered across the USA. Most of them black against black.


Black on black and even black on white are only to be expected since these good citizens are still coming to terms with white culture, but this was half-white on black. 

Let's also preempt apologist squeals that whites also murder each other, with a reminder that the number of such atrocities should be considered in the light of local and national demography.

----------


## leemo

> So here ya go, bleeding hearts how about this perspective? A bit of food for you to gnaw on..
> 
> New Talking Point: Trayvon Was the Bigot, As He Thought Zimmerman Was Gay
> 
> New Talking Point: Trayvon Was the Bigot, As He Thought Zimmerman Was Gay - Elspeth Reeve - The Atlantic Wire


Next you'll be saying blacks can also be racist!

----------


## Teflon Don

> Originally Posted by Teflon Don
> 
> 
> Between the minute this black criminal got shot and the verdict was handed down, 10,000 black men were murdered across the USA. Most of them black against black.
> 
> 
> He wasn't a criminal.


I am aware that he was under 18. That does not mean he is not a criminal. He admitted to smoking marijunana which is illegal

----------


## Balance

I just wonder why Trayvon didn't have a gun. If he had one he could have shot Zimmerman and now he'd be free. There should be programs to supply handguns to the minority communities so that they can confront the white kids who are out at night. More guns among the poor would be a good thing at least for statistics.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> 
> So here ya go, bleeding hearts how about this perspective? A bit of food for you to gnaw on..
> 
> New Talking Point: Trayvon Was the Bigot, As He Thought Zimmerman Was Gay
> 
> New Talking Point: Trayvon Was the Bigot, As He Thought Zimmerman Was Gay - Elspeth Reeve - The Atlantic Wire
> 
> ...


Well.........................You know??  ::chitown::  I try to present a balanced perspective..

----------


## Teflon Don

> I just wonder why Trayvon didn't have a gun. If he had one he could have shot Zimmerman and now he'd be free. There should be programs to supply handguns to the minority communities so that they can confront the white kids who are out at night. More guns among the poor would be a good thing at least for statistics.


Zimmerman was not white.

----------


## koman

They demanded and got their arrest.

They demanded and got their trial.

Thet demanded justice.

The trial resulted in an "not guilty" verdict after all the evidence was presented.

Now they cry foul because what they really wanted was a lynching.

Logical conclusion:  Trials of whites who shoot blacks must end with guilty verdicts otherwise the system has failed.   How dare they confuse the jury with facts and cause them to make such a stupid mistake...... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Balance

> Originally Posted by Balance
> 
> 
> I just wonder why Trayvon didn't have a gun. If he had one he could have shot Zimmerman and now he'd be free. There should be programs to supply handguns to the minority communities so that they can confront the white kids who are out at night. More guns among the poor would be a good thing at least for statistics.
> 
> 
> Zimmerman was not white.


Maybe so but his mentality is that of the typical warped white people who live in a constant state of racist paranoia.



Meanwhile we get more and more of these killings by the paranoid.

Another trial involving a Florida man who fatally shot an unarmed black teen | The Raw Story

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> 
> So here ya go, bleeding hearts how about this perspective? A bit of food for you to gnaw on..
> 
> New Talking Point: Trayvon Was the Bigot, As He Thought Zimmerman Was Gay
> 
> New Talking Point: Trayvon Was the Bigot, As He Thought Zimmerman Was Gay - Elspeth Reeve - The Atlantic Wire
> 
> ...


Manly of you to admit yours  :Smile:  ....

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
> Z is white Hispanic, numbskull.
> 
> 
>   No it isnt , The USA has two different racial categorys, one is White American and the other is  Hispanic White , White and Hispanic White are two different things .


Really, only two racial categories in the US? Hispanic is not a race, it's an ethnicity. Your native language clearly isn't English, so go look it up.

----------


## Boon Mee

*Department of Justice Now Soliciting Tips About Any Possible Derogatory Information Useful in a Prosecution of  George Zimmerman*

             Oh I wouldn't sweat it, Holder.  Thanks to you, your community agitator boss, and the media, he'll probably be murdered.  Problem solved.On Monday afternoon, the US Department of Justice appealed  to civil rights groups and the general public across the country for  “tips” on George Zimmerman in their pursuit of potential federal civil  rights charges against the just-acquitted defendant in the Trayvon  Martin killing. The DOJ actually went so far as to set up an e-mail  address to allow such tips: Sanford.florida@usdoj.gov. The email address  is slated to go operational by the end of the week.  Barbara Arnwine, president and executive director of the Lawyers’  Committee for Civil Rights Under Law told the Orlando Sentinel that the  DOJ had held a Monday conference call “calling on us to actively refer  anyone who had any information” that would help build a case against  Zimmerman. "They said they would very aggressively investigate this  case,” Arnwine stated.

Thomas Sowell asks "Is this still America?"

No shit.  There's something very, very wrong here. :Confused:

----------


## Pound Hound

> Another post based on ignorance of the case. He was trained by the agent friend to chamber a round so he had a full clip plus one and this pistol which was also recommended to him by the same friend had no safety so it is immediately ready to use without delay..


and your point is what? Your point is fucking stupid and proves my point He got out of the truck looking for something other than a street address.

was his friend a licensed firearms trainer? or is this the guy who was fired from FDLE for working as private bodyguard?

you think people with C&C should walk around with guns with *no safety* and one in the chamber? Is that recommended by the NRA or FDLE? or by any sane person with an ounce of common sense?

if you do this yourself.... you are a danger to people around you!

do law enforcement walk around with one in the chamber?

talk about ignorance!

pot meet kettle....

anything about bricks and glass houses mean anything to you.

----------


## robuzo

So many knuckleheads in the US with no sense, little training but plenty of guns is why we can enjoy the GunFail roundup every week: Daily Kos: GunFAIL XXV
Or, we could enjoy if it not for the fact the following is pretty much the same every week:
The 14 child victims of GunFAIL this week were 3, 6, 6, 7, 9, 11, 11, 15, 16, 16, 17, 17, and two kids of unspecified ages. Of particular note among them was one West Virginia 11-year-old shot to death in his sleep by his own grandmother. Grandma lived in a separate home some 200 yards away, and upon becoming convinced she heard prowlers outside, apparently fired wildly into the night, putting at least one round into her son and grandson's nearby home, killing the boy in his bed. No evidence of any prowlers was found. 
---

----------


## Boon Mee

Zim has now managed to get himself to the exalted level of Enemy of the State!

 Feds want Zimmerman, any way they can get him  This no  longer is about George Zimmerman, its about a Department of Justice  serving political interests.

Obama will get Zim killed anyway he can... ::chitown::

----------


## koman

> *Department of Justice Now Soliciting Tips About Any Possible Derogatory Information Useful in a Prosecution of  George Zimmerman*
> 
>              Oh I wouldn't sweat it, Holder.  Thanks to you, your community agitator boss, and the media, he'll probably be murdered.  Problem solved.On Monday afternoon, the US Department of Justice appealed  to civil rights groups and the general public across the country for  tips on George Zimmerman in their pursuit of potential federal civil  rights charges against the just-acquitted defendant in the Trayvon  Martin killing. The DOJ actually went so far as to set up an e-mail  address to allow such tips: Sanford.florida@usdoj.gov. The email address  is slated to go operational by the end of the week.  Barbara Arnwine, president and executive director of the Lawyers  Committee for Civil Rights Under Law told the Orlando Sentinel that the  DOJ had held a Monday conference call calling on us to actively refer  anyone who had any information that would help build a case against  Zimmerman. "They said they would very aggressively investigate this  case, Arnwine stated.
> 
> Thomas Sowell asks "Is this still America?"
> 
> No shit.  There's something very, very wrong here.


I believe your department of justice has been boning up on the methods of Joseph Stalin,  Joseph Goebbles,  Nicolae Ceausescu and other notable advocates of truth and justice over the years.    

Supress evidence that might get a man found not guilty in your staged political show trial.....when that fails because a jury was smart enough to distinguish between evidence and hype,  just start to concoct another case for a civil court, (cause you can't get a conviction in the criminal one)  and drag him in front of a judge who has been well briefed on the new evidence that you manufactured by using the tried and true method of "tip" collection.... :mid:     Will George have to make a run for it and seek sanctuary from persecution in Cuba, Yemen, Zimbabwe...or some other bastion of freedom and democracy...?

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> Another post based on ignorance of the case. He was trained by the agent friend to chamber a round so he had a full clip plus one and this pistol which was also recommended to him by the same friend had no safety so it is immediately ready to use without delay..
> 
> 
> and your point is what? Your point is fucking stupid and proves my point He got out of the truck looking for something other than a street address.
> 
> was his friend a licensed firearms trainer? or is this the guy who was fired from FDLE for working as private bodyguard?
> 
> ...


Still senselessly bleating on I see?  ::chitown::  Not surprising that you missed the point AGAIN.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> 
> *Department of Justice Now Soliciting Tips About Any Possible Derogatory Information Useful in a Prosecution of  George Zimmerman*
> 
>              Oh I wouldn't sweat it, Holder.  Thanks to you, your community agitator boss, and the media, he'll probably be murdered.  Problem solved.On Monday afternoon, the US Department of Justice appealed  to civil rights groups and the general public across the country for  tips on George Zimmerman in their pursuit of potential federal civil  rights charges against the just-acquitted defendant in the Trayvon  Martin killing. The DOJ actually went so far as to set up an e-mail  address to allow such tips: Sanford.florida@usdoj.gov. The email address  is slated to go operational by the end of the week.  Barbara Arnwine, president and executive director of the Lawyers  Committee for Civil Rights Under Law told the Orlando Sentinel that the  DOJ had held a Monday conference call calling on us to actively refer  anyone who had any information that would help build a case against  Zimmerman. "They said they would very aggressively investigate this  case, Arnwine stated.
> 
> Thomas Sowell asks "Is this still America?"
> 
> ...


Yes, but they are asking (and I quite think it's OTT but remember the cop who Obama said was out of line for detaining the black guy breaking into his own house) because they don't have a CIVIL rights case since this this was never determined to be anything about race..The jury has said that race NEVER even entered the deliberations.. Gonna be a bit difficult to pull that one out fortunately for Z...

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Zim has now managed to get himself to the exalted level of Enemy of the State!
> 
>  Feds want Zimmerman, any way they can get him  This no  longer is about George Zimmerman, its about a Department of Justice  serving political interests.
> 
> Obama will get Zim killed anyway he can...


Tragically not just Zim... Our Conspirator in Chief..

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by piwanoi
> ...


Perhaps you could explain to me why, if Zimmerman had a "broken nose" and his head had been pummeled into concrete "25-30" times, any physician would not usually order at the very least an X-Ray?

I'm sure you'll try, and it will be funny.

----------


## leemo

If I had a gun and my head was being banged onto concrete by a thug, I wouldn't start counting till it reached 25-30. 

Once would be enough for me to reach and with every intent to fire. But to be fair, I am not as pious as some on here to believe that by showing restraint he might decide to stop before I'm dead.

----------


## koman

^

Why do some of you people keep banging on and on about the seriousness or lack of seriousness concerning the injuries to Zimmerman.   The seriousness of the injuries was not really that important in the case. 

   What was important was that the injuries were pretty clear evidence that Zimmerman's version of the story was true.....in that Martin had assaulted him and he was on the ground fearing for his life.....which resulted in that single shot being fired.       There are pictures taken at the scene which show a fair amount of blood and serious enough looking injuries....then there are photos of him after he had received medical attention and been cleaned up.  Obviously the wounds are not going to look quite as dramatic after they have been cleaned up.    WTF is the point of all this BS about the severity of his wounds??

There were grass stains on the back of his clothing which also supported his story even without the injuries.   The case largely hinged on the question of who attacked who ....and the reason for Zimmerman using his weapon....which apparently a jury was able to understand but not the TD analysts who had their mind made up long before the evidence was even available.... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## jamescollister

PH you don't know anything about hand guns, you never load a weapon in the street, unless you are shooting and need a new clip. Modern hand guns don't have safety's.
No I don't have a carry permit, live in Thailand, but used to wear a blue suit. So next time you are in a shop don't stand near a cop, he has one in the chamber.

Koojo, Martin was a criminal, if he wasn't the judge would not have ordered his record sealed. Can't seal a criminal record unless there is one to seal. Jim

----------


## koman

> Martin was a criminal, if he wasn't the judge would not have ordered his record sealed. Can't seal a criminal record unless there is one to seal. Jim


Holy shit....be careful with all that logic...you are going to cause melt-downs all over the place with stuff like that... :rofl:

----------


## leemo

> ^
> ...There were grass stains on the back of his clothing which also supported his story even without the injuries.   The case largely hinged on the question of who attacked who ....and the reason for Zimmerman using his weapon....which apparently a jury was able to understand but not the TD analysts who had their mind made up long before the evidence was even available....


I wouldn't give the jury too much credit, three of the six thought Z was guilty, two of manslaughter and one on murder 2. 

Trayvon Martin: half of jury 'thought George Zimmerman was guilty' - Telegraph

----------


## leemo

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> Martin was a criminal, if he wasn't the judge would not have ordered his record sealed. Can't seal a criminal record unless there is one to seal. Jim
> 
> 
> Holy shit....be careful with all that logic...you are going to cause melt-downs all over the place with stuff like that...


 :rofl:

----------


## bsnub

> Koojo, Martin was a criminal, if he wasn't the judge would not have ordered his record sealed. Can't seal a criminal record unless there is one to seal.


Shows that you know jack shit about American law. A minors criminal record is always sealed and confidential unless said minor is to be tried as an adult.

This thread is filled with bullshit and inaccuracies. Most of you are not even American so please do not try to comment on law that you don't know or even understand.

----------


## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> Koojo, Martin was a criminal, if he wasn't the judge would not have ordered his record sealed. Can't seal a criminal record unless there is one to seal.
> 
> 
> Shows that you know jack shit about American law. A minors criminal record is always sealed and confidential unless said minor is to be tried as an adult.
> 
> This thread is filled with bullshit and inaccuracies. Most of you are not even American so please do not try to comment on law that you don't know or even understand.


Might want to do a bit of research on that one, you seem to have missed a little point.
Martin was not on trial, Zimmerman was. Jim

----------


## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by bsnub
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by jamescollister
> ...


 Nice one Jim , can't wait for the defenses reply to your little point! :rofl:

----------


## The Big Fella

Can anyone remember the riots when Oj was cleared by a jury ? hordes of white people rampaging through towns and cities burning and looting shops and cars and assaulting black people inretaliation because a black man had been found not guilty of hacking to death two white people in a fit of jealous rage ? 
NO ? 
Because it didn't happen but when a white, well he is not black so in this case makes him white is cleared of shooting dead a black man in self defence there is anarchy. 
it shows just how twisted and warped society is today regarding race and political correctness.

----------


## The Big Fella

I forgot to add but there was a black lawyer on Tv this morning that stated that around ninety one percent of black men are killed by other black men yet this fact is ignored and this case is being used to bring racial conflict to the USA. 
Talk of it being " Open season for young black men " Is all wrong as the figures show if it is open season on young black men it is other young black men doing the killing and not white people.

----------


## ltnt

Rawanda was "Racist."  Black on black, but the "White World," never intervened. 

Hundreds of thousands of blacks were murdered and not one White person came to the aid of those being murdered.  Hutu and Tutu slaughtered one another without any White intervention.  Now that's just down right "Racist."

----------


## piwanoi

> Rawanda was "Racist."  Black on black, but the "White World," never intervened. 
> 
> Hundreds of thousands of blacks were murdered and not one White person came to the aid of those being murdered.  Hutu and Tutu slaughtered one another without any White intervention.  Now that's just down right "Racist."


 And if America had intervened many would have said, there they go again interfering in another Country's affairs when its none of their fucking business! :Smile:  and are you saying that the US should go into Zimbabwe and get rid of the murdering dictator Mugabe? I would suggest before you write about slaughtering tens of thousands you read this link, and its still going on right now http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/bo...pagewanted=all

----------


## robuzo

> Can anyone remember the riots when Oj was cleared by a jury ? hordes of white people rampaging through towns and cities burning and looting shops and cars and assaulting black people inretaliation because a black man had been found not guilty of hacking to death two white people in a fit of jealous rage ? 
> NO ? 
> Because it didn't happen but when a white, well he is not black so in this case makes him white is cleared of shooting dead a black man in self defence there is anarchy.


Sorry, anarchy? Relatively small-scale rioting in LA after a protest, not quite on the order of, say, the Vancouver Stanley Cup riots. Otherwise, what are you talking about?

The disappointment on the part of the white supremacists (speaking here of Fox News, National Review, etc., not to mention the pasty old fat-assed racist expat blowhards on this board) that there hasn't been widespread rioting is palpable.

----------


## ltnt

Actually, Piwanoi, just pointing out the disparity of what is considered "Racism."  As far as I am concerned they are more than welcome to continue the slaughter.  Wish other countries like China and India would join the the rush to reduce populations.

Zimbabwe, just another African country doing the African thing...killing each other for nothing.  Looks like AID's isn't going to do the job, so they have to take matter's into their own hands.  Perhaps Jimmy Carter can save them?

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by bsnub
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by jamescollister
> ...



Such a point will be lost on Bsnub......he is so out there he is in  serious danger of falling off the edge.   

   In any case the previous record of Martin would not have been allowed in most jurisdictions anywhere that I know of.......it's was not material to the case,  and it might  have instilled prejudice in the jury by diminishing the "innocent child" image that the media and state tried so valiantly to project.   Problem was it fooled nobody but themselves and of course the defenders of all the world's underdogs here on TD..... :Smile:

----------


## bsnub

> Originally Posted by bsnub
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by jamescollister
> ...


You right wing dipshits are dumber then a three dollar bill. Juvenile records are sealed. Period. Lie on fox news drone...

As usual you right wing retards are fine with posting up nonsense.

----------


## bsnub

> Such a point will be lost on Bsnub


Stir the shit pot and lie some more old man.




> In any case the previous record of Martin would not have been allowed in most jurisdictions anywhere that I know of


End of story.

----------


## piwanoi

Two black teenagers shoot a white baby in the face killing it stone dead in front of its mother who got shot too but lived  earlier on this year and the African American media is silent ,how typical Black Teens Kill White Baby; Media Silent   WTF was Al Sharpton , Jesse Jackson and the black horde then? , one can just imagine what would have happened  if two white thugs had shot the black mother and killed the baby!!!

----------


## Boon Mee

Y'all heard about that Zimmerman Tip Line, right?

That's where you can go and report a rumor about what somebody said that was detrimental to Zim and you're a great Amerikan for doing so!

Well, Twitter is abuzz with #ZimmermanTipLine and Comedy Ensues!  :rofl:

----------


## Warrior

Loads of wisdom here.
82 pages of uncensored pure wisdom.
Humanity at its best.

5555

----------


## piwanoi

Just Imagine the furore if some white far right group said bomb black nurseries and kill black babys ,which is what the "New Black Panthers" advocate , just Imagine what Holder, Sharpton ,Jackson and all the "civil rights fruitcakes" would have to say ,and of course from Obama the silence is deafening!New Black Panther leader: Kill white babies by bombing nurseries - National Crime & Courts | Examiner.com

----------


## Warrior

> Just Imagine the furore if some white far right group said bomb black nurseries and kill black babys ,which is what the "New Black Panthers" advocate , just Imagine what Holder, Sharpton ,Jackson and all the "civil rights fruitcakes" would have to say ,and of course from Obama the silence is deafening!New Black Panther leader: Kill white babies by bombing nurseries - National Crime & Courts | Examiner.com


You actually read that stuff piwanoi? Better buy a good book or enjoy the sunset mate. Have a walk on the beach. Have a week of retreat in a local temple. Try growing avocados.
Imagine the joy. Its more pleasant and life enhancing than imagine the furore.

Go in peace. Enjoy the day.

----------


## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by piwanoi
> 
> 
> Just Imagine the furore if some white far right group said bomb black nurseries and kill black babys ,which is what the "New Black Panthers" advocate , just Imagine what Holder, Sharpton ,Jackson and all the "civil rights fruitcakes" would have to say ,and of course from Obama the silence is deafening!New Black Panther leader: Kill white babies by bombing nurseries - National Crime & Courts | Examiner.com
> 
> 
> You actually read that stuff piwanoi? Better buy a good book or enjoy the sunset mate. Have a walk on the beach. Have a week of retreat in a local temple. Try growing avocados.
> Imagine the joy. Its more pleasant and life enhancing than imagine the furore.
> 
> Go in peace. Enjoy the day.


 Any chance you can post an independent link to say its a load of bollocks That the Black Panthers are not an anti white racist group? ,and what about my post 2047 are you saying thats twaddle too?

----------


## Warrior

> Originally Posted by Warrior
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by piwanoi
> ...


Hahahaha, no, no chance, and no, I am not saying that - coz I havent read that post or at least cant remember what it says. 
I am saying its a better life to grow avocados than repost and re-link the bla bla that one can find on the internet.
Nuff said. I am done with it.

----------


## Fluke

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> ...



  The Physician needs to be struck off for incompetence .

----------


## koman

> Any chance you can post an independent link to say its a load of bollocks That the Black Panthers are not an anti white racist group? ,and what about my post 2047 are you saying thats twaddle too?


Edith Bunker (Archie's wife in "All in the family" 1975) sent the Black Panthers a donation because she thought they were a wild life preservation society.    She was a liberal too...... :smiley laughing:

----------


## jamescollister

Florida juvenile regs.



Page 9 
Who can see juvenile records?
As a general rule, public acce
ss to juvenile records is  
limited, but there are exceptions.  All traffic violations 
by youth are public record and are treated the same as 
adult traffic violations.  Until 1994, law enforcement 
agencies could only release the name of juveniles ages 16 
and older who had been charged with one of a few  
specific crimes.  In 1994, a change in laws governing the 
confidentiality of juvenile records eliminated the age  
restriction and expanded what 
juvenile records could be  
disclosed.  The law now allo
ws law enforcement agencies 
to disclose to the public the name, photograph, address, 
and the arrest report of any child arrested for a felony.  
This same information may be disclosed if a child has 
been found by a court to have  
committed three or more  
misdemeanors.  This information  
may also be disclosed for youth who 
are transferred to the adult system.  
Criminal justice agencies may have 
access to all FDLE juvenile criminal 
records for criminal justice purposes.  The general public 
may be provided access to criminal justice histories by 
FDLE for a fee, which can include any juvenile  
arrests that FDLE is authorized under statute to  
provide.

Ockerocker you have no idea, I have arrested people for possession of a screw driver without lawful excuse. Called going equipped.
Take it you are Australian, after your comment that cracker meant good at your job. You have a screw driver in you possession without reason you will get done for possession of an offense weapon.

The judge didn't excluded Martins character and history  because he was an honor student, he had priors. Jim

----------


## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by piwanoi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Warrior
> ...


 Well if you ain;t read my post or you can't remember what it says and have no way of knowing what I write is fact,  why do you think I would be better growing avocado's,?  or could it be that because you yourself do not  agree its best for you to just ignore it ,BTW hows the revolution coming along? you'll go far as a member of the TDMA :smiley laughing:

----------


## Warrior

> Originally Posted by Warrior
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by piwanoi
> ...


 
You will find out soon enough.

----------


## The Big Fella

Over thirty percent of the people using the Stand your ground defence in Florida were black. totally disproportionate to the black population of florida. Something that again is never heard on the biased media in the USA today. 
ninety two percent of black people are killed by blacks and yet over fourteen percent of white people are killed by blacks. 
Another statistic never voiced in the media. 
Nearly twice as many white people are killed by blacks as blacks killed by whites but the blacks are the ones being persecuted according to the media ? WTF ?

----------


## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by piwanoi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Warrior
> ...


 Hey Robespierre or is it Che? stick to growing avocado's, its far safer, cos you know what happened to them two plonkers don't you  :rofl:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> ...


Oh I don't think so.

 :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> ...


Or.......

----------


## RickThai

> Over thirty percent of the people using the Stand your ground defence in Florida were black. totally disproportionate to the black population of florida. Something that again is never heard on the biased media in the USA today. 
> ninety two percent of black people are killed by blacks and yet over fourteen percent of white people are killed by blacks. 
> Another statistic never voiced in the media. 
> Nearly twice as many white people are killed by blacks as blacks killed by whites but the blacks are the ones being persecuted according to the media ? WTF ?


The Big Fella,

You make some very strong points - points that the talking heads in TV land will never bring up.

When was the last time the US government charged a Negro with a civil rights violation for killing a Caucasian?  Never, because that is just business as usual.

Too bad so many people are "color blind" when it comes to the reality of shootings and crime in the US.

Santi,

RickThai

----------


## Boon Mee

More evidence of Racism in Amerika:

Black Man With Pistol Permit Shoots White Teen, Is Acquitted. 

Funny, didnt get much coverage  not politically useful.  Doesn't fit their agenda... ::chitown::

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> ...


Emergency room physicians are interns and not yet full fledged doctors thus they often make mistakes.

I went in for an Xray of my back once when I had suddenly felt something pop and had pain that made me pass out. In the ER the intern said nothing was wrong, but I distinctly saw in one side view that I had a bulging disk I questioned him and he insisted that he was a doctor and I was just an EMT so I went to a full fledged orthopedic specialist friend and guess what?? 

I also had another accident where the floor of the car was pushed upward by the front wheel being pushed underneath, bashing my heel upwards and my knee was forced up into the steering column. 

I told them I had heel pain and knee too, even suggested what it was, the doctor briefly examined my knee, asked me to walk around and said I was ok, I didn't believe him, sought out another opinion as my heel was quite painful and guess what?? It turned out to be fractured and a ruptured cartilage in my knee, both of which still bother me to this day years after the fact in spite of treatment.

Point of information, I was challenged by another poster regarding my medical expertise and forgot to mention that I am EMT trained, it was part of my required training with my embassy posting. EMT are generally regarded as more extensively trained then nurses..If I got that sort of responses just imagine what the average patient might get as an examination? ER's are too busy and you tend to get pushed through..

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Over thirty percent of the people using the Stand your ground defence in Florida were black. totally disproportionate to the black population of florida. Something that again is never heard on the biased media in the USA today. 
> ninety two percent of black people are killed by blacks and yet over fourteen percent of white people are killed by blacks. 
> Another statistic never voiced in the media. 
> Nearly twice as many white people are killed by blacks as blacks killed by whites but the blacks are the ones being persecuted according to the media ? WTF ?


I sure wish someone would notify dumb and dumber (Jessie and Al) who are here in Orlando ironically with the NAACP convention this week and of course they're teeing off all over the media and targeting the SYG law which was never even part of the trial..

----------


## Pound Hound

> EMT are generally regarded as more extensively trained then nurses


you are a funny, funny man

"regarded" by who per se?

from the UCLA EMT training course


The EMT Course is offered in three convenient formats: Accelerated (Weekdays), Weekend, and Evening courses.For the 3-week Accelerated course, classes meet for three from Monday through Friday, 8:00am to 5:00pm (with an hour for lunch). The course final exam is held the following Monday from 8:00am to 5:00pm (with an hour for lunch). The two 12-hour ride-alongs are scheduled separately.For the 8-week Weekend course, classes meet on Saturday and Sundays, from 8:00am to 5:00pm (with an hour for lunch). The two 12-hour ride-alongs are scheduled separately.For the 11-week Evening course, classes meet on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday evenings from 6:00pm to 10:00pm. The two 12-hour ride-alongs are scheduled separately.I'll bet there is sooooooo much more training there than a full 3 or 4 year nursing program & degree!!!

did you take the 3 week accelerated program? or the 8 weekend one?

----------


## RickThai

Just finished watching a talk show where a Negro Harvard Law professor stated that there was no way that the jurors could have found Z guilty according to the way the case was presented and Florida law.

He blamed the prosecutor for mishandling the case.

An ABC legal analyst (who is also a lawyer) stated that based upon the evidence produced, Z could not have been found guilty of either the murder or manslaughter charge.  He also doubted that Martin's family could win in a civil suit (and in Florida could wind up responsible for Z's legal fees).  He also went on to state that there is no legal way Z could be found guilty on a "civil rights" violation.

That makes me wonder if this entire trial was nothing more than a sham to pacify the black horde?

RickThai

----------


## S Landreth

> EMT are generally regarded as more extensively trained then nurses


you really have no idea, do ya paper pusher?

My daughter received her Nursing Degree from FSU (Florida State for those of you who haven't a clue) and was first licensed in Florida (RN).

No responsible hospital would let some EMT into the hospital where she works (NICU).

----------


## piwanoi

I thought I may have had a few more remarks to my posts 2047 and 250 ,maybe they are considered  not that important ,when its a black killing a white or a group of black racial extremists  issuing death threats based on race eh . :Smile:

----------


## Storekeeper

> Originally Posted by .[/QUOTE
> 
>  Any chance you can post an independent link to say its a load of bollocks That the Black Panthers are not an anti white racist group? ,and what about my post 2047 are you saying thats twaddle too?
> 
> 
> Edith Bunker (Archie's wife in "All in the family" 1975) sent the Black Panthers a donation because she thought they were a wild life preservation society.    She was a liberal too......


Nice catch. You should see the episode where Archie gets invited to the announcement of George Jefferson's son getting married and George found out his future daughter-in-law's Dad is white.

 :smiley laughing:

----------


## koman

> Just finished watching a talk show where a Negro Harvard Law professor stated that there was no way that the jurors could have found Z guilty according to the way the case was presented and Florida law.
> 
> He blamed the prosecutor for mishandling the case.
> 
> An ABC legal analyst (who is also a lawyer) stated that based upon the evidence produced, Z could not have been found guilty of either the murder or manslaughter charge.  He also doubted that Martin's family could win in a civil suit (and in Florida could wind up responsible for Z's legal fees).  He also went on to state that there is no legal way Z could be found guilty on a "civil rights" violation.
> 
> That makes me wonder if this entire trial was nothing more than a sham to pacify the black horde?
> 
> RickThai


Well, I for one would be very surprised if a Harvard law professor and a mere lawyer offering such opinions would have any effect on our in house TD legal team.... :Smile: 

I wonder how he thinks the prosecution mishandled the case.  How do you mishandle a case where there really is no case?  What did the prosecution really have;  to counter the pile of evidence on the defence side?   All they had was a bunch of people telling stories about what they though they saw...or what they thought they heard...and frequently having to amend their stories as more actual facts were introduced.   The whole case for the prosecution was a fiasco.

Against the physical evidence of Zimmerman's bodily injuries, grass stains on the back of his clothes and the expert testimony from a forensic pathologist that the shot was fired from below, at virtually point blank range......you have theories, random guess work, and the all important _innocent child_ approach...  emotion and hype versus real evidence. 

  It was a non-starter.  and you are probably right in believing that the whole thing was a bit of theater which was conducted to appease the howling mob and their ever loyal spokesmen;  the Reverends Sharpton and Jackson et al, with their anointed and untouchable leaders in Washington helping things along. 

  I suppose they could have selected a 12 man jury from the ranks of the Black Panthers....just to make it more fair and get the real_ justice_ they were clamouring for... :rofl:

----------


## piwanoi

^Maybe they should start a group called the "White Panthers" , have  White music awards ,have a  Miss White America contest, and the whites own Magazine called "Ivory"  :Smile:

----------


## Balance

-deleted-

----------


## koman

> Another white guy kills a 13-year old black kid.
> 
> 
> 
> Video shows Spooner shooting Darius Simmons - YouTube
> 
> 
> 
> Video shows white Milwaukee man shooting black teen as mother watches | The Raw Story



A bizarre case, but has nothing to do with the Zimmerman/Martin affair which is the subject of this thread.   If we start posting stories about every inter-racial attack in the USA...this thread is going to be very long..............

Somebody also posted about the black teens who shot and killed a white child  in  a baby carriage right in front of the Mother.......also nothing to do with the Zimmerman case..... :mid:

----------


## piwanoi

I was just making the point that it did not get Nation/World wide exposure same as the Martin Zimmerman case nor did they have the white hordes with white politicians parading shouting that the two black thugs be apprehended and brought to justice  nor did Obama get involved   ,also the white  Mother was shot twice too ,but survived . what I'm trying to say is why was the Zimmerman case so special? .

----------


## Balance

> More evidence of Racism in Amerika:
> 
> Black Man With Pistol Permit Shoots White Teen, Is Acquitted. 
> 
> Funny, didnt get much coverage  not politically useful.  Doesn't fit their agenda...


Gosh BM that was 2009. There's at least one a month for whites shooting blacks.

----------


## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> 
> More evidence of Racism in Amerika:
> 
> Black Man With Pistol Permit Shoots White Teen, Is Acquitted. 
> 
> Funny, didnt get much coverage  not politically useful.  Doesn't fit their agenda...
> 
> ...


 Yeah it makes one wonder as to just why the Zimmerman case was so important  :Smile:

----------


## Boon Mee

> Originally Posted by Balance
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> ...


Because The Messiah told the World if he had a son, he would look like Trayvon.  Obama is right up there with Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Malchom X and the rest of those low-life race-baiters... ::chitown::

----------


## ltnt

> Obama is right up there with Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Malchom X and the rest of those low-life race-baiters...


Over rated I think...

----------


## RickThai

I saw on the news yesterday a story about a woman whose little girl (both Caucasians) was sufferring from a severe, and life-threatening allergic reaction.  The woman and her mother, put the little girl in their car and headed to the hospital.

Along the way, their route was blocked by hundreds of "black horde" people protecting Z's not guilty verdict and blocking traffic.

Desperate to get to the hospital, the woman rolled down her car window (her mother was driving) and started pleading with the protesters to let her through, as her daughter was seriously ill.

Instead of readily complying, the crowd started beating on the car and one Negro man punched the woman in the face.  The woman's mother then forced her way through the crowd, making them give way.

How can anyone justify that kind of behavior?  If I were a Negro I would be so ashamed of the "black horde".

RickThai

----------


## Rainfall

I'm white, Rick, Aryan, and I am deeply ashamed of you. Please dear Africans, Asians, Nunawut, and remote Islanders, do not pigeonhole all whites just because Rick is a dimwit.

----------


## Fluke

> I'm white, Rick, Aryan, and I am deeply ashamed of you. Please dear Africans, Asians, Nunawut, and remote Islanders, do not pigeonhole all whites just because Rick is a dimwit.


  Do you support people blocking the road and not letting a car go through that is on its way to hospital  , a car that is carrying a Child who needs urgent medical treatment ?

----------


## khmen

> Over thirty percent of the people using the Stand your ground defence in Florida were black. totally disproportionate to the black population of florida. Something that again is never heard on the biased media in the USA today. 
> ninety two percent of black people are killed by blacks and yet over fourteen percent of white people are killed by blacks. 
> Another statistic never voiced in the media. 
> Nearly twice as many white people are killed by blacks as blacks killed by whites but the blacks are the ones being persecuted according to the media ? WTF ?


Hey BF, can you send me some links in PM for those stats mate? Not piss taking saying "got a link 4 that", I'm just taking the piss out of some left-wing nutters on another forum and it'd be nice to throw those stats at 'em  :Wink:

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by The Big Fella
> 
> 
> Over thirty percent of the people using the Stand your ground defence in Florida were black. totally disproportionate to the black population of florida. Something that again is never heard on the biased media in the USA today. 
> ninety two percent of black people are killed by blacks and yet over fourteen percent of white people are killed by blacks. 
> Another statistic never voiced in the media. 
> Nearly twice as many white people are killed by blacks as blacks killed by whites but the blacks are the ones being persecuted according to the media ? WTF ?
> 
> 
> Hey BF, can you send me some links in PM for those stats mate? Not piss taking saying "got a link 4 that", I'm just taking the piss out of some left-wing nutters on another forum and it'd be nice to throw those stats at 'em


Here's some percentages with a link for you:
Whites who kill blacks in Stand Your Ground states are far more likely to be found justified in their killings. In non-Stand Your Ground states, *whites are 250 percent more likely to be found justified in killing a black person than a white person who kills another white person*; in Stand Your Ground states, that number jumps to 354 percent.
Is There Racial Bias in “Stand Your Ground” Laws? | Criminal Justice | FRONTLINE | PBS

Texpig, Boob Mee and the rest might find that their dream of shooting a black kid is more easily reachable than they imagined in librul Merca.

----------


## ltnt

^Actually, I was thinking regarding the POTUS representing himself somehow as "Victim?"  I seriously doubt he ever felt the racism that was ever present in the black student body, yet crazy as it was they elected me student body president?
Cracker Assed White Guy...Obamas got no clue about racism.

I didn't enjoy those three years and feel forever resentful over the experience.  Not due to my experience, but because it wasn't a circumstance that was required.

----------


## hazz

> Originally Posted by The Big Fella
> 
> 
> Over thirty percent of the people using the Stand your ground defence in Florida were black. totally disproportionate to the black population of florida. Something that again is never heard on the biased media in the USA today. 
> ninety two percent of black people are killed by blacks and yet over fourteen percent of white people are killed by blacks. 
> Another statistic never voiced in the media. 
> Nearly twice as many white people are killed by blacks as blacks killed by whites but the blacks are the ones being persecuted according to the media ? WTF ?
> 
> 
> Hey BF, can you send me some links in PM for those stats mate? Not piss taking saying "got a link 4 that", I'm just taking the piss out of some left-wing nutters on another forum and it'd be nice to throw those stats at 'em


As you all know I have this rather like facts on the basis they are more than opinion and retoric.

Imagine there is a room with 1000 people, 12% are black and 88% are white.

someone goes into the room and randomly kills 100 people.

On average 12 of the victims will be black and 88 will be white.


Thus the victims of a black killer would be 88% white and 12% would be black
and the victims of a white killer would be 12% black and 88% white

and these are the ratios you would get if stranger attacks were killing people randomly. The reality as in what the DoJ report, is

Black killing whity   approx 18%, expected 88%... 60% lower than expected
whity killing black   approx 8%, expected 12%... 4% lower than expected 

Which does rather suggest that white and black strnger killers have a bias for killing victims from their own race, and that this bias is much stronger for black people.

what you cannot use these figures to say is that backs make up 12 % of a population and kill 18%... therefore they much be targeting white people. its the false logic of the spin doctor and crank.

----------


## Cujo

Can't believe the president of the U.S. coming on TV just now and saying "35 years ago that could have been me" " I used to cross the street and hear the sound of car doors locking".
FFS the fact that a President would wvwn involve himself to that level, let alone the question "why are people locking their doors?" Because people feel secure in the presense on strange black americans ot night?
Why don't people lock there dors when white people are aqpproaching?
What a complete fucking arsehole. ( and he seemed drunk)

----------


## Laphanphon

George Zimmerman isn't hispanic, he's a white hispanic, according to the media. I guess that makes Obama a white black American.

----------


## koman

^

They had to find enough white in him to make sure we had a proper "racist".....only people who are white or at lease predominately white can be considered racists..... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):    I think the Jewish name probably helped too....... :Smile:

----------


## koman

> On average 12 of the victims will be black and 88 will be white.


Bit of a flaw in your statistical analysis here surely?   If this is a singular event of 1000 people being "randomly" shot at.....you can't have an average.   If you had 20 separate events like this then you could produce an average....... :Smile:

----------


## Boon Mee

> Can't believe the president of the U.S. coming on TV just now and saying "35 years ago that could have been me" " I used to cross the street and hear the sound of car doors locking".
> FFS the fact that a President would wvwn involve himself to that level, let alone the question "why are people locking their doors?" Because people feel secure in the presense on strange black americans ot night?
> Why don't people lock there dors when white people are aqpproaching?
> What a complete fucking arsehole. ( and he seemed drunk)


But the money quote is still "I could have been Trayvon" which is out & out race-baiting.

Obama could have been anyone - let's say he could have been rapper Lil Wayne:

*Lil Wayne has been to rehab a few times for his Sizzurp addiction.* 

“Sizzurp” aka “Purple Drank,”  “Lean,” and “Texas Tea.” It’s a concoction of cough syrup - preferably  codeine but OTC will do in a pinch -, Arizona Tea or soda and Jolly  Ranchers or Skittles. 

It was a foolish speech.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> 
> Can't believe the president of the U.S. coming on TV just now and saying "35 years ago that could have been me" " I used to cross the street and hear the sound of car doors locking".
> FFS the fact that a President would wvwn involve himself to that level, let alone the question "why are people locking their doors?" Because people feel secure in the presense on strange black americans ot night?
> Why don't people lock there dors when white people are aqpproaching?
> What a complete fucking arsehole. ( and he seemed drunk)
> 
> 
> ...


From my point of view there has never been anything else from him, shame so few have seen through the hype and sales pitch..

----------


## RickThai

Some points to consider:

In retrospect the only crimes actually committed during the Zimmerman Martin episode were the assault and battery inflicted on Z, by Martin, and the hate crime where Martin referred to Z as a "cracker".

So, people should ask themselves:  If Zimmerman were a Negro, would Martin have attacked him?  My guess is probably not.

Martin's cellphone comments about Zimmerman being a "cracker", followed by an actual assault seems to meet the legal definition of a "hate crime" if I am not mistaken.

So "Justice for Trayvon" should consist of charging him with a "hate crime".

I wonder why Obama didn't bring up this aspect of the case?  Perhaps he is looking to a new career has a professional Negro (along the lines of Sharpton and Jackson) after he gets out of office?

RickThai

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Can't believe the president of the U.S. coming on TV just now and saying "35 years ago that could have been me" " I used to cross the street and hear the sound of car doors locking".
> FFS the fact that a President would wvwn involve himself to that level, let alone the question "why are people locking their doors?" Because people feel secure in the presense on strange black americans ot night?
> Why don't people lock there dors when white people are aqpproaching?
> What a complete fucking arsehole. ( and he seemed drunk)


Some of us saw that well before his first election but were drowned out by the falsified drone of "yes we can" when the reality was "no they can't"..

----------


## S Landreth

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> 
> Can't believe the president of the U.S. coming on TV just now and saying "35 years ago that could have been me" " I used to cross the street and hear the sound of car doors locking".
> FFS the fact that a President would wvwn involve himself to that level, let alone the question "why are people locking their doors?" Because people feel secure in the presense on strange black americans ot night?
> Why don't people lock there dors when white people are aqpproaching?
> What a complete fucking arsehole. ( and he seemed drunk)
> 
> 
> Some of us saw it on FOX news well before his first election but were drowned out by the falsified drone of "yes we can" when the reality was "no they can't"..


ever hear about the obstructionists that are presiding in the house?

you do put the Dah in Floridah, don't ya paper pusher?

----------


## Boon Mee

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> 
> Can't believe the president of the U.S. coming on TV just now and saying "35 years ago that could have been me" " I used to cross the street and hear the sound of car doors locking".
> FFS the fact that a President would wvwn involve himself to that level, let alone the question "why are people locking their doors?" Because people feel secure in the presense on strange black americans ot night?
> Why don't people lock there dors when white people are aqpproaching?
> What a complete fucking arsehole. ( and he seemed drunk)
> 
> 
> Some of us saw that well before his first election but were drowned out by the falsified drone of "yes we can" when the reality was "no they can't"..


Heh...and that was before the infamous statement:  "You Didn't Build That"

Saw something the other day that kinda sheds more light on how Obama is just as much of a race-baiter as Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson:

 The year is 1995. The president is Bill Clinton. After the double murderer OJ Simpson gets off on a not guilty verdict Clinton takes the bully pulpit and says,

  If I had a son hed look like Ronald Goldman.

----------


## ltnt

> “If I had a son he’d look like Ronald Goldman.”


Say it isn't so...

----------


## The Big Fella

I have just watched Obama's speech and have to say it is all so wrong. He talks of being followed round shops and of people generally being afraid of young black men yet fails to ask why this is. Instead of targeting those that profile people he needs to ask the question that has been ignored by black civil rights advocates. The reason people do this is due the the fact large numbers of crimes are committed by these young black men that make people profile people. More black people kill black people than whites by a huge factor but this is always ignored. 
There is a section of the black community that continues with propagating the " Poor hard done by and racially abused black people "  for their own agenda. 
The likes of Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson don't want an end to conflict. They have made careers of keeping the division going. 
Only when the culture of violence in America whether black, hispanic or white is tackled the country will never get any better.

----------


## Boon Mee

^
And folks wonder regarding Obama's sitting in that Black Racist's Church Sunday after Sunday listening to that garbage?  Both him and Mooch are hard-core Racists.

I've worked with American Blacks over the years and for every one of them w/out a racist bone in their bodies, there's 10 or more that continue to hate Whitey.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^
> And folks wonder regarding Obama's sitting in that Black Racist's Church Sunday after Sunday listening to that garbage?  Both him and Mooch are hard-core Racists.
> 
> I've worked with American Blacks over the years and for every one of them w/out a racist bone in their bodies, there's 10 or more that continue to hate Whitey.


If they've had to listen to your bullshit, I can understand why.

 :Smile:

----------


## The Big Fella

America is about to get it's own Stephen Lawrence. The tragic and needless death of this young black man twenty years ago caused so much trouble for the country as a whole. His death was no different to the many thousands before or many after yet the knee jerk reaction to it caused severe damage not just to the Metropolitan police but to every public sector body and it resulted in them all being petrified of being labelled racist that it allowed people to play the race card to great advantage and to even get away with rape and murder.
I dread to think what this is going to bring to America but whatever it brings it won't be good no matter which way you look at it.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridahBorn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Koojo
> ...


You just have an endless supply of witlesscisms don't ya? I do happen to recall that Obama had the house and senate when he was elected into office and still nothing happened, so without going off topic how do you explain that? 


Never mind, rhetorical question, not only do I not care to hear anymore mindless excuses or responses but bottom line is you can't explain it..Sore losers defend themselves any way they can..  ::chitown::

----------


## S Landreth

> Originally Posted by S Landreth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by FloridahBorn
> ...


WTF, paper pusher?

First two years? Nothing?

The accomplishments of the first two years of the Obama Administration: 

1) A $20 billion increase for the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP), formerly known as Food Stamps. 
2) A $1 billion in funding for the Community Services Block Grant (CSBG) that is intended to revitalize low-income communities via "Job training and placement assistance", "Financial literacy programs", et al, to helping families become self-sufficient. 
3) A $2 billion in new Neighborhood Stabilization Funds that will allow ailing neighborhoods be kept maintained. 
4) A $1.5 billion in Homelessness Prevention Funds to keep people in their homes and prevent homelessness. 
5) A $5 billion increase for the Weatherization Assistance Program to help low income families save on their residential energy expenditures by making their homes more energy efficient. 
6) A $4 Billion program, The Healthy, Hunger-Free Kids Act of 2010, "authorizes funding for federal school meal and child nutrition programs and increases access to healthy food for low-income children." 
7) As part of the HCR bill, subsidies will be available to the uninsured and families with income between the 133 percent and 400 percent of poverty level($14,404 for individuals and $29,326 for a family of four). 
8) Estabilished Open Doors to end the 640,000 men, women and children who are homeless in America by 2020. 
9) Increased the amount of federal Pell Grant awards so that funds are available to those with less access to have opportunity. 
10) Provided $510 Million for the rehabilitation of Native American housing. 
11) Expanded eligibility for Medicaid to all individuals under age 65 with incomes up to 133 percent of the federal poverty level ($14,400 per year for an individual). 
12) Providing assistance to low-income workers through the Earned Income Tax Credit giving millions of working families the break they need. 
13) Education being the way out of Poverty, kicked off the "Race to the Top", a $4.3 billion program, that rewards via grants to States that meet a few key benchmarks for reform, and states that outperform the rest. 

On Health Care Reform:

1) Coverage cant be denied to children with pre-existing conditions. 
2) Adults up to age 26 can stay on their parents health plans. 
3) Free preventive care. 
4) Rescinding coverage is now illegal. 
5) Eliminating lifetime limits on insurance coverage. 
6) Restricting annual limits on insurance coverage. 
7) More options to appeal coverage decisions. 
8) $5 billion in immediate federal support to affordable Coverage for the Uninsured with Pre-existing Conditions. 
9) $10 billion investment in Community Health Centers. 
10) Create immediate access to re-insurance for employer health plans providing coverage for early retirees. 
11) Made an $80 billion deal with the pharmaceutical industry to contribute to cut prescription drug costs for the nations seniors reduce the size of the "donut hole" in the Medicare (Part D) Drug Benefit. 
12) Provides a $250 rebate to 750,000 Medicare Beneficiaries who reach the Part D coverage gap in 2010. As of March 22, 2011, 3.8 million beneficiaries had received a $250 check to close the coverage gap, according to an HHS report. 
13) Businesses with fewer than 50 employees will get tax credits covering up to 
>35% of employee premiums effective 2011 and a 50% tax credit effective 2013. 14) Creates a state option to provide Medicaid coverage to childless adults with incomes up to 133% of the federal poverty level. By 2014, States are required to provide this coverage. 
15) Provides a 10% Medicare bonus payment for primary care services and also a 10% Medicare bonus payment to general surgeons practicing in health professional shortage areas. 
16) Medical Loss Ratio (MLR) requires that insurance companies spend at least 80 to 85 percent of the proportion of the premium dollars on clinical services. As an example, WellPoint's Anthem Blue Cross unit in California has reduced its proposed rate increase. 

On Jobs and the Economy:

1) The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (ARRA) has worked. The Economy Has Been Growing - take a look at the graph of GDP growth between 2007 thru 2010. 
2) The $787 billion economic stimulus package has created or saved nearly 2 million jobs slowing the bleeding 
3) Worker, Homeownership, and Business Assistance Act of 2009 that extended Unemployment benefits up to 20 weeks and more. 
4) Provided $14.7 billion in small business loans increasing minority access to capital. 
5) The $26 billion aid to states package preventing large-scale layoffs of teachers and public employees. 
6) As of March 31, 2011, created 1.8 million Private sector jobs since Jan 2010. 
7) US auto industry rescue plan saved at least 1 million jobs 
8) Helped make the Auto Industry start making huge profits again with Ford sales up 19% over last year. GM up 11%. Chrysler up a whopping 31%. 
9) Jobs for Main Street Act (2010)injected $27.5 Billion for Highways, $8.4 Billion for Transit into the countrys transportation system to create jobs and spur economic activity. 
10) A $33 Billion Jobs Package that will allow Small businesses to get $5,000 tax credit for new hires. 
11) A $26 billion State Aid Package Jobs Bill saving 300,000 teachers and public workers jobs from unemployment. 
12) As part of the 2010 tax extension, Unemployment Insurance was extended to 7 million Americans who would have been without income. 

On Banking and Financial Reform

1) Signed a sweeping bank-reform bill (the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act)into law 
2) Managed the $700 Billion Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) that Banks have repaid more than 100% of TARP funds ($251 of the $245 banks owed) as of March 2011 exceeding the original investment by $6 billion. 
3) Cuts Salaries of 65 Bailout Executives 
4) Closed offshore tax safe havens, tax credit loopholes on companies that use the tax laws to ship American Jobs oversees. HR 4213. 
5) Signed into law the Fraud Enforcement and Recovery Act to fight fraud in the use of TARP and recovery funds, and to increase accountability for corporate and mortgage frauds. 
6) Signed the Credit Card Accountability, Responsibility and Disclosure Act 

On Education

1) Health Care and Education Affordability Reconciliation Act of 2010 that increased the amount of federal Pell Grant awards and enabled the stripping of banks privileges as intermediaries for student loan servicing saving the US government about $68 billion dollars over 11 years. 
2) Created the Race to the Top Fund, a $4.35 billion program to reward States that submit the best proposals for change. 
3) As part of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, funded over $100 Billion for reforms to strengthen Elementary and Secondary education, early learning programs, college affordability and improve access to higher education, and to close the achievement gap. 

On Energy

1) Implemented renewable fuels mandate of 36 billion gallons by 2022, four times what we currently consume. 
2) Automakers will be required to meet a fleet-wide average of New Gas Mileage Standards at 35.5 MPH by 2016. 
3) A $60 billion investment in renewable and clean energy. 
4) developed a Biofuels Roadmap to determine the next steps in growing an advanced biofuels economy to meet the goal to use at least 36 billion gallons of bio-based transportation fuels by 2022 helping create more green energy jobs. 
5) established EPA regulations which require large U.S. ships to cut soot emissions by 85 percent. 
6) pledged via the Blueprint for a Secure Energy Future that in a decade from now to cut our oil dependency by one-third, and put America's energy future by producing more oil at home and reducing our dependence on oil by leveraging cleaner, alternative fuels and greater efficiency. 

On Housing

1) $275 billion dollar housing plan - $75 billion dollars to prevent at-risk mortgage debtors already fallen victim to foreclosures and $200 billion to bring about confidence to offer affordable mortgages and to stability the housing market. 
2) Established "Opening Doors" to end the homelessness of 640,000 men, women, and children in the United States in 10 years. 
3) Provided $510 Million for the rehabilitation of Native American housing. 
4) Provided $2 billion for Neighborhood Stabilization Program to rehab, resell, or demolish in order to stabilize neighborhoods. 
5) Provided $5 billion for Weatherization Assistance Program for low income families to weatherize 1 million homes per year for the next decade. 
6) Provided grants to encourage states and localities to take the first steps in implementing new building codes that prioritize energy efficiency.

On Medicaid/Medicare/Social Security

1) giving $250 economic stimulus check to 55 million Social Security and Supplemental Security Income (SSI) recipients in 2009. 
2) Cutting prescription drug costs for Medicare recipients by 50% and began eliminating the plans gap (donut hole) in coverage. 
3) Passing as part of H.R.3962 (Preservation of Access to Care for Medicare Beneficiaries and Pension Relief Act of 2010) a $6.4 billion measure reversing a 21 percent cut in physician payments that would have started a flood of rejections by some doctors of seniors covered by Medicare. 
4) Expanded eligibility for Medicaid to all individuals under age 65 with incomes up to 133 percent of the federal poverty level ($14,400 per year for an individual). 
5) Committed to ensuring that Social Security Budget Will Not Be Cut nor would change the retirement age. 

On Military Veterans and Families

1) A $112.8 billion VA budget, an increase of 15.5 percent over 2009, the largest percentage increase for VA requested by a president in more than 30 years. 
2) Implemented a strategic plan to increase the hiring of Veterans and Military spouses throughout the Federal civil service. 
3) Provided for the expenses of families of to be at Dover AFB when fallen soldiers arrive. 
4) Passed the Veterans' Compensation Cost-of-Living Adjustment Act of 2009 increasing the rates of compensation for veterans with service-connected disabilities and the rates of dependency and indemnity compensation for the survivors of certain disabled veterans. 
5) Declared the end of the war in Iraqi bringing back nearly 100,000 U.S. troops home to their families. 
6) Donated 250K of Nobel prize money to Fisher House, a group that helps provide housing for families of patients receiving medical care at military and Veterans Affairs medical centers 
7) Ended media blackout on war casualties; giving access to the return home of a dead US soldier for the first time since an 18-year ban on coverage was lifted. 
8) Create a 'Green Vet Initiative' to promote environmental jobs for veterans 
9) Signed into law the 2009 Military Spouses Residency Relief Act, that will allow military spouses to claim residency in the same state as their sponsor and retain that residency as long as the service member is in the military, in the process avoiding the states where they currently reside from taxing their earned income. 
10) Signed the Caregivers and Veterans Omnibus Health Services Act of 2010

On LBGTQ issues

1) Extended benefits to same-sex partners of federal employees 
2) Signed the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act 
3) Instructed HHS to require any hospital receiving Medicare or Medicaid funds (virtually all hospitals) to allow LGBT visitation rights. 
4) Banned job discrimination based on gender identity throughout the Federal government (the nation's largest employer) 
5) Signed the Ryan White HIV/AIDS Treatment Extension Act and while more funding is needed per the 2012 proposed budget, an increase of $80 million to domestic and global HIV/AIDS programs committed 
6) Extended the Family and Medical Leave Act to cover Gay employees taking unpaid leave to care for their children of same-sex partners 
7) Lifted the HIV Entry Ban. 
8) Implemented HUD Policies that Would Ban Discrimination Based On Gender Identity 
9) Appointed the first ever transgender DNC member 
10) Named open transgender appointees (the first President ever to do so) 
11) Eliminated the discriminatory Census Bureau policy that kept LGBT relationships from being counted
12) Extended domestic violence protections to LGBT victims 
13) Repealed the Don't Ask, Don't Tell (DADT) Discriminatory law. 
14) Declared DOMA (Defense of Marriage Act) unconstitutional and stopped Defending In Court 
15) Endorsed a U.N. declaration calling for the worldwide decriminalization of gays and lesbians around the world in an efforts to make it a worldwide policy. 

Tax deal extending Bush's tax cut for two years which often gets criticized will do the following:

Damn it, the TAX DEAL is not PERMANENT
1) Keep $3,000 in tax savings annually 
2) Unemployment Benefit for 7,000,000 Americans worth $56 Billion. 
3) $2,500 in tax savings to help pay for college tuition and other expenses 
4) A $2,000 payroll tax savings to someone making $100,000 or a $1,000 payroll tax savings at a 2% employee-side payroll tax cut for over 155 million workers 
5) Child tax credit of $1,000 per child with the $3,000 maximum credit threshold. 
6) Earned Income Tax Credit that will give on an average $600 in additional assistance to families with 3 or more children 
7) A 65 percent tax credit to help cover the cost of COBRA for those who lost their jobs in the recession
8) forecast to creating approximately 1.6 million jobs increasing the GDP for 2011 
9) extended the credit for adoption-related expenses that reduces families tax bill up to $13,170 in 2011 through 2012 with a maximum of $12,170 in credit. 

Other Notables

1) signed the Health Package For 9/11 Responders bill that puts $4.3 billion into a fund to assist folks that are suffering from problems caused by breathed-in dust and debris during the 9/11 clean up. 
2) signed into law a sweeping Food Safety Act bill that contains 18 major changes to food safety laws. 
3) made an excellent choice selecting a new Chief of Staff, William Daley, who Eric London has made a super case for why it was a smart choice. 
4) made a $78 billion spending cut to the U.S. military and defense department budget, including reducing the size of the Army and Marine Corps. 
5) signed in to law the START Treaty with Russia, a sweeping new arms reduction pact that will reduce the stockpile nuclear weapons in both countries adding new verification plan. 
6) The passage of the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act enabling the rights of workers to sue employers over wage discrimination claims. 
7) The expansion of SCHIP health-care program for children worth $33 Billion. 
8) The declaration of two million more acres of wilderness in one of the most omnibus Public Lands bill. 
9) Government Transparency as noted by Common Cause, Democracy 21, League of Women Voters and U.S. PIRG-- "The cumulative effect of the Administration's actions has been to adopt the strongest and most comprehensive lobbying, ethics and transparency rules and policies ever established by an Administration to govern its own activities". You can read full report in all of the seven areas the report is graded. 
10) signed the Tribal Law and Order Act -- an important step to help the Federal Government better address the unique public safety challenges that confront tribal communities. 

Isn't FOX on now?

----------


## Storekeeper

[/URL]

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by FloridahBorn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by S Landreth
> ...


What, you mean he was handed two wars and the worst financial crisis/economy since the Great Depression and that's all he accomplished? What's wrong with the guy? Typical lazy, shiftless n-clang.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridahBorn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by S Landreth
> ...


Can't be arsed to wade through that rubbish line by line but most of what I saw in that list was enacted and already well in progress by the previous administration BEFORE the "yes we can" group even took office..  Not surprised your liberal rag tried to give credit for it to the Obama admin though..

C- for effort on BS though.. That'll be all on that front for me it's all off topic.. I figured you being a liberal and all there's no way you could keep it real or brief and eventually it would get out of hand and once again predictably, you didn't disappoint..

----------


## Boon Mee

"Can't be arsed to wade through that rubbish line by line but most of what I saw in that list was enacted and already well in progress by the previous administration BEFORE the "yes we can" group even took office..  Not surprised your liberal rag tried to give credit for it to the Obama admin though..

C- for effort on BS though.. That'll be all on that front for me it's all off topic.. I figured you being a liberal and all there's no way you could keep it real or brief and eventually it would get out of hand and once again predictably, you didn't disappoint..[/quote] FloridaBorn

Plus that misinformation/disinformation and just plain BS was posted in the wrong thread.

"The Peoples View"?

Sounds like Pravda circa 1960's... :mid:

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## leemo

> [/URL]


What trial? 

Are you suggesting he may be guilty?

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## Boon Mee

Author of the Law of Self Defense.

Should be the final word on little Trayvon's demise but probably won't be... ::chitown::

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## harrybarracuda

The final word will come when a brother pops a cap in Zimmerman's ass.

 :Smile:

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## koman

^^

Chirst Booners you are going to get the Trevonites all confused again...by introducing a legal expert to repeat (once again)
that the evidence was virtually all on Zimmerman's side. 

The argument from the Trevonites seems to be  Zimmerman has to be guilty cause he's a white(ish) guy
Trevon the "child" could not possibly be a badass because he's just 17 and black enough to quality for immunity.....

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## Boon Mee

> The final word will come when a brother pops a cap in Zimmerman's ass.


Probably not as that would indeed start a full-on Race War.

There's a sizeable population living below the Mason Dixon Line that would - shall we say, have '_strong feeling's_ if this crap escalates further...  :mid:

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## Laphanphon

White Hispanic? What's next, white Asians, white Indians, white black Americans?

----------


## RickThai

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> The final word will come when a brother pops a cap in Zimmerman's ass.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably not as that would indeed start a full-on Race War.
> ...


I beg to differ.  The Caucasians would not want to risk giving up their lifestyle and hardwon accomplishments.  

Some people think the Race War has already started on the Negro side, but nobody told the Caucasians.

Only when Negroes start going into predominately Caucasian neighborhoods and start looting, ransacking, and killing will Caucasians take up arms.  And then it will only be to the extent to halt the rampaging.

Let us all hope that it never comes to that!

RickThai

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## FloridaBorn

> "Can't be arsed to wade through that rubbish line by line but most of what I saw in that list was enacted and already well in progress by the previous administration BEFORE the "yes we can" group even took office..  Not surprised your liberal rag tried to give credit for it to the Obama admin though..
> 
> C- for effort on BS though.. That'll be all on that front for me it's all off topic.. I figured you being a liberal and all there's no way you could keep it real or brief and eventually it would get out of hand and once again predictably, you didn't disappoint..


 FloridaBorn

Plus that misinformation/disinformation and just plain BS was posted in the wrong thread.

"The Peoples View"?

Sounds like Pravda circa 1960's... :mid: [/QUOTE]

In after thought I do have to give him the Fox references though as I do like my UFC and it's on Fox sports  :Smile: ..

----------


## Boon Mee

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> ...


Hope it never comes to that either although the Redneck Riviera is packed wall to wall with folks who are fed up...

----------


## leemo

> White Hispanic? What's next, white Asians, white Indians, white black Americans?


'White Hispanic' creates a subcategory with a none too subtle hint at how the recipient is expected to react, depending on the circumstances. 

Could be the vile prefix was added to remind true Leftists that their work is far from finished.

----------


## Boon Mee

> Originally Posted by Laphanphon
> 
> 
> White Hispanic? What's next, white Asians, white Indians, white black Americans?
> 
> 
> 'White Hispanic' creates a subcategory with a none too subtle hint at how the recipient is expected to react, depending on the circumstances. 
> 
> Could be the vile prefix was added to remind true *Leftists* that their work is far from finished.


_Compassionate_ American Liberals have killed directly or indirectly  more people than Hitler and Stalin combined.

How a Miami School Crime Cover-Up 
Policy Led to Trayvon Martins Death 

"The February 2012 shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martion might never have happened if school officials in Miami-Dade County had not instituted an unofficial policy of treating crimes as school disciplinary infractions. Revelations that emerged from an internal affairs investigation explain why Martin was not arrested when caught at school with stolen jewelry in October 2011 or with marijuana in February 2012. Instead, the teenager was suspended from school, the last time just days before he was shot dead by George Zimmerman."

"Trayvon Martin was not from Sanford, the town north of Orlando where he was shot in 2012 and where a jury acquitted Zimmerman of murder charges Saturday. Martin was from Miami Gardens, more than 200 miles away, and had come to Sanford to stay with his fathers girlfriend Brandy Green at her home in the townhouse community where Zimmerman was in charge of the neighborhood watch. Trayvon was staying with Green after he had been suspended for the second time in six months from Krop High School in Miami-Dade County, where both his father, Tracy Martin, and mother, Sybrina Fulton, lived."

The American Spectator : The Spectacle Blog : How a Miami School Crime Cover-Up Policy Led to Trayvon Martin's Death

Don't forget to channel your inner Trayvon now!  :rofl:

----------


## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by leemo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Laphanphon
> ...


 Yeah one of the reasons why "little" travon was living so far away from his home base was because his mother had flung him out of the house for fighting !!Articles: New Evidence Shows Trayvon's Life Unraveling

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## leemo

Just as well the shooter wasn't white or part white, otherwise the race baiters like Sharpton, Jackson and Obama would be out in force, with Leftist media in close support. 

Mind you, she was wearing a white top; I wonder what the fully paid up looneys could make of that. 

Woman killed stranger at a gas station with a RIFLE from car trunk before taking pictures of dead body on phone | Mail Online

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## koman

^

Good article and full of stuff many of us suspected all along.  Again there is no one bit of behavior that is especially unusual for an undisciplined and unruly 17 year old from a pretty dysfunctional family background. 

   The sum total however is a pretty strong indicator that he was the most likely aggressor in the confrontation that let to a 9mm slug in the chest......backed up by all the physical and forensic evidence, and Zimmerman's testimony,  which the Trevonites still can't acknowledge for reasons that are difficult to understand....other than being more of the leftist liberal blindness that has invaded the land..... :mid:

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## Necron99

*Zimmerman a Hero.*

OFFICIALS say George Zimmerman helped rescue four people from an overturned vehicle last week, just days after he was cleared of all charges in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin.
Sheriff's spokeswoman Kim Cannaday said in a statement on Monday that deputies responding to the wreck found Zimmerman and another man had already helped the couple and their two children out of the flipped sports utility vehicle.
The sheriff's office report says Zimmerman spoke with a deputy at the scene and then left. Zimmerman did not see the crash happen.
It is the first known sighting of Zimmerman since the 29-year-old former neighbourhood watch volunteer was acquitted last week of second-degree murder and manslaughter charges in the 2012 shooting of 17-year-old Martin.


Read more: George Zimmerman in Florida car crash rescue | News.com.au

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## leemo

Good story, black guy saves four whites in horror crash.

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> ...


It happened in England already.
Oh, and New Orleans, but no one shot tke looting negros because that would be racist.

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## Boon Mee

> Good story, black guy saves four whites in horror crash.


There's a Tweet gone viral re this story:

"The most famous white Hispanic helped rescue 4 Americans. The most  famous black Caucasian refused to rescue 4 Americans! Whos A HATER?"

Spot on... :mid:

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## leemo

Easy enough for the right wing bigots to stage a crash, but I think they should have used blacks for Zimmerman to rescue.

----------


## piwanoi

> ^
> 
> Good article and full of stuff many of us suspected all along.  Again there is no one bit of behavior that is especially unusual for an undisciplined and unruly 17 year old from a pretty dysfunctional family background. 
> 
>    The sum total however is a pretty strong indicator that he was the most likely aggressor in the confrontation that let to a 9mm slug in the chest......backed up by all the physical and forensic evidence, and Zimmerman's testimony,  which the Trevonites still can't acknowledge for reasons that are difficult to understand....other than being more of the leftist liberal blindness that has invaded the land.....


  And of course quite few TDF members too! :Smile:

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## Boon Mee

> Easy enough for the right wing bigots to stage a crash, but I think they should have used blacks for Zimmerman to rescue.


Indeed...

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## koman

> Originally Posted by leemo
> 
> 
> Easy enough for the right wing bigots to stage a crash, but I think they should have used blacks for Zimmerman to rescue.
> 
> 
> Indeed...


Maybe if the background checks are really thorough they can find a bit of black somewhere in their genes..... would make the story more compelling.....same as making Zimmerman white did the job for the Trevonites...... :rofl:

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## piwanoi

Racial profiling?, this often used word ,as if the word itself is some how racist ,personally I just think its statistics and the laws of probability which most white people are well aware of ,for instance blacks between the age of 14 to 24  make up only 1% of the population yet are responsible for 27% of the nations murders ,Blacks make up just 13% of the population and yet are responsible for 53% of the Countrys murders that is nation wide and IMHO in certain area's it will be far far more,also Blacks of any age are eight times more likely to commit murders than whites and that includes "white Hispanics"  the more I read about this case and Obama's say on the matter the more I think its become a three ring circus that is top heavy with clowns , maybe its somewhat overdue to write and speak the "crippling truth", this is quite an interesting article Articles: Obama's Dangerous Racial Hang-ups

----------


## Boon Mee

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by leemo
> ...


Trevonites have a lot in common with the TDMA... :mid:

----------


## piwanoi

Quite an interesting Article Articles: The Post-racial President's Profiling

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## Boon Mee

You know what's really pathetic?

Family rescued by George Zimmerman from car accident cancels press conference in fear of blowback

Family Rescued by George Zimmerman Fears 'Blow Back' - ABC News

They are rightly afraid of those lunatics out there.

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## harrybarracuda

You know what's really pathetic? Not one word of that comes from the family involved, it's virtually all from Zimmerman's lawyer.

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## RickThai

> You know what's really pathetic? Not one word of that comes from the family involved, it's virtually all from Zimmerman's lawyer.


They (the family) are probably afraid of repercussions from the black horde (and their apologists).

How dare you let Zimmerman, the killer of black children, save you!  You deserve to die!


RickThai

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## RickThai

On a related story, I saw where an old Caucasian man was sentenced to life in prison for shooting and killing a Negro teenage boy.

The old man thought the kid (who was his neighbor) broke into his house and stole some  kids.  The video shows the old man confronting and then shooting the kid in cold blood.  The kid turned around and ran off, collapsing and dying from loss of blood.

IMO, that old man should have been given the death penalty.  You don't shoot someone just because you think they committed a crime (you only shoot them if you catch them in the act).

RickThai

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## Storekeeper

Another juror speaks out:

&#039;Zimmerman Got Away With Murder&#039;: Juror B-29 Speaks Out | Vibe

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Another juror speaks out:
> 
> 'Zimmerman Got Away With Murder': Juror B-29 Speaks Out | Vibe


Yes, what ever happened to a hung jury? If you don't agree you can just hold out and declare a hung jury and the trial is null and void and must be retried.. My impression is she wasn't committed enough to her opinion, at least not until now so she can CHA (cover her backside) with this disclaimer..

----------


## Storekeeper

> Originally Posted by Storekeeper
> 
> 
> Another juror speaks out:
> 
> 'Zimmerman Got Away With Murder': Juror B-29 Speaks Out | Vibe
> 
> 
> Yes, what ever happened to a hung jury? If you don't agree you can just hold out and declare a hung jury and the trial is null and void and must be retried.. My impression is she wasn't committed enough to her opinion, at least not until now so she can CHA (cover her backside) with this disclaimer..


She did the right thing. The law is the law. And as you know I agree with her sentiments but the fact remains the law is the law and the evidence was in GZ's favor. One sided evidence but that's all the jury had to go on. I hate like hell that he just walked but even though some of us think he got away with murder you can't let emotion/intuition/gut feelings rule on what we "think" might have happened in a civilized society.

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## leemo

Nothing new there, 3 of the 6 wanted to convict.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Storekeeper
> ...


Yes but my point is she wasn't convicted enough to her beliefs and regardless of law if you truly believe he's guilty you don't HAVE to acquit, you can hold to those beliefs and force a hung jury, that's part of the law too.. Did that happen because she was swayed? Missed her family? Didn't want to be sequestered any longer? For whatever reason, her 'after the fact' sentiments seem disingenuous IMO ..

----------


## RickThai

I found this quote to be interesting, primarily because of the source:

“Be nice to white men.  One of the besetting sins of many in the progressive and liberal movements is that they have made white men the enemy.  In fact, no ethnic group in history gave up so much power so quickly and so peacefully.”
	From_ Post Empire Survival Guide_ by Sam Smith, editor of _Progressive Review_

Perhaps the 'black horde' should reflect and stop looking at everything as black vs. white.

RickThai

----------


## Storekeeper

> I found this quote to be interesting, primarily because of the source:
> 
> Be nice to white men.  One of the besetting sins of many in the progressive and liberal movements is that they have made white men the enemy.  In fact, no ethnic group in history gave up so much power so quickly and so peacefully.
> 	From_ Post Empire Survival Guide_ by Sam Smith, editor of _Progressive Review_
> 
> Perhaps the 'black horde' should reflect and stop looking at everything as black vs. white.
> 
> RickThai


Remember well the class I was taking many years ago where I realized white men aren't members of any of the "protected classes" in the USA. Don't remember much other than thinking at the time it must be nice for the ultra wealthy who could buy whatever they wanted while the rest of us had to deal with affirmative action. And then over time I just decided I'd have to work that much harder to get where I wanted to be. Still had to deal with things like women and their "glass ceilings" complaints. Ultimately the game is bigger than me ... Just another squirrel trying to get a nut ...  :Smile:

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## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> You know what's really pathetic? Not one word of that comes from the family involved, it's virtually all from Zimmerman's lawyer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They (the family) are probably afraid of repercussions from the black horde (and their apologists).
> ...


I was thinking more his tendency to exaggerate, e.g. an inch long scratch and a puffy nose being life threatening injuries.

 :rofl:

----------


## barbaro

Worth a browse.

Print the Legend
By:  Peter Schiff
Friday, July 19, 2013

The Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman tragedy has become one of those transcendent events that dominates the national discourse and throws light on dimly lit aspects of our society. Obviously, the case touches most closely on issues of race rela*tions, media culture, and the politicization of the justice system. It also reveals how preconceived emotional commitments to a narrative can consistently trump demonstrable facts.* These tendencies are also present in the polarized discussion about the persistent weakness of the U.S. economy. In both cases, the majority of observers have chosen to believe an emotionally comfortable narrative while ignoring a far more likely, ambiguous, and unsatisfying reality.

When the Trayvon Martin case first caught national attention, it confirmed the worst fears that many had about America. A sweet young African-American teenager (12 or 13 by the looks of the pictures we were presented) returning home from a convenience store with Skittles and ice tea is gunned down in cold blood by a racist white man who profiled him as a criminal simply because he was a black kid in a hooded sweatshirt. The fact that the killer had not been arrested by local authorities, simply reinforced the suspicions that the South (which apparently includes central Florida) remains locked in a Jim Crow era of institutionalized white supremacy. The gears of the media and the political establishment quickly fell in line to support this narrative. This resulted in the appointment of a special prosecutor and a murder trial for George Zimmerman.

*But then demonstrable facts started coming in that clashed significantly with this narrative. But the unwanted information was thoroughly ignored. The media and the public had become so invested in the story that no contrary facts could be tolerated. Rather than reconsidering initial assumptions, everyone just dug in their heels and stood firm.*

*As it turns out Trayvon himself was not the little boy that the pictures suggested. The most recent images of him as a 17-year old revealed a much more mature, masculine, and imposing figure. His behavior at home and in school objectively suggests a youth veering towards violence. He had gotten into trouble for fighting, had been suspended from school three times, once after having been caught with drugs and women's jewelry that may well have been stolen. His tweets and e-mails are replete with boasts of violence, drug use, and even suggestions of firearm procurement. In fact, the reason he was living in the housing community in which he was killed was that his mother sent him 200 miles north to live with his father after determining that she could no longer control her troubled son. (None of these facts were presented to the jury.)*

For his part, George Zimmerman did not fit the mold that had been prepared for him either. First off, he wasn't really white, but half Hispanic (English being his second language). And while he certainly had a few marital, personal and psychological skeletons in his closet, nothing in his background suggested that he had ever displayed racist tendencies towards blacks. In fact, he had many black friends, had once championed the cause of a black homeless person beaten by the son of a white policeman, mentored black children, and had even taken a black woman to his high school prom. In addition, he had no affiliation with any fringe groups with known racist tendencies. In fact he was a registered and politically active democrat -- one of the "good guys" when it comes to racial equality and social justice.  

The details of the encounter also failed to correspond to the narrative. The only thing that is known definitively is that Zimmerman referred to Martin as a "punk" expressed frustration that "they always get away" and that a 911 dispatcher suggested that he need not follow Martin. Despite these facts there is no solid evidence that Zimmerman actually sought a confrontation.

While some of Zimmerman's actions may have shown poor judgment, such behavior is not criminal, or even actionable. The evidence that does exist, the broken nose and other injuries sustained by Zimmerman and the small abrasion on Martin's hand, suggests that Martin was the aggressor in the physical encounter and that Zimmerman had cause to fear continued bodily harm when he decided to use deadly force. This physical evidence corresponds to the consistent story told by Zimmerman and is corroborated by the only other eyewitness testimony. Certainly this provides sufficient evidence to suggest that Zimmerman was acting in self- defense according to the legal definition of the term. One need have no sympathy for Zimmerman to conclude that the facts, as they exist, could not support a conviction on the charges he faced.

After what any objective observer would determine to be a fair and exhaustive trial (if not one overly skewed to the prosecution), a jury returned a verdict of "not guilty," even to the lesser included manslaughter charge that had been thrown in at the last minute.

But this outcome has not succeeded in changing the dominant and predetermined narrative one bit.  As far as the media is concerned, as well as those on the left side of the political spectrum, George Zimmerman has gotten away with the cold-blooded murder of an innocent child whose only crime was being black and wearing a hoodie. None of the facts presented in or out of trial have mattered in the slightest.

Those whose interests support a continuation of this controversy, allege bias in the system, even while failing to point to any overt errors in the proceedings. In the end, they conclude that the prosecution was simply incompetent and that the injustice must be in the minds of the racist, all female jury. As a result, they are seeking new Federal and civil venues to raise the same questions, which they will continue to ask until they get the answer they expect. 

Much of the same closed-mindedness is on display in our discussion about the economy. The vast majority of observers continue to subscribe to the dominant narrative that our economy is improving, the Fed's Quantitative Easing programs are responsible, and that the debt we are currently accumulating is not a long-term problem. The current administration, the media, Wall Street, and the Fed itself, are particularly committed to this narrative. After all, we have been pursuing these policies for more than five years, and many of these parties have a particular emotional and pecuniary investment in a positive outcome. It would be difficult for them now to admit that their preferred cures have not only been ineffective, but harmful. As a result, they will continue to advocate for the current policies until they get the answers they expect.

Not only do their underlying assumptions defy economic law and objective rationality, but they are also at odds with the evidence that continues to arrive. The data makes it clear that while asset prices (stocks, bonds, and real estate), are currently being inflated by an activist monetary policy, the real economy continues to stagnate. What supports do exist are based solely on government intervention. Yet they nevertheless discuss a potential Fed exit strategy as if the economy were in a position to make such a transition without bringing on an even more severe recession than the last. In this light, the failure of QEI to produce a real recovery led directly to QEII, and so on to QE Infinity. We are unwilling to challenge our initial assumptions about what is really wrong with our economy and how to fix it.

To get a sense of justice and emotional clarity over the death of Trayvon Martin, many cling to the image of a saintly youth and ignore the more difficult reality of a troubled teen picking a fight with an inept neighborhood watchman. Accepting this reality does not lead to a conclusion that Trayvon deserved to die, but it denies the self-justifying conclusions that keep race relations dysfunctional. It also allows us to ignore more troubling and far more common tragedies like the one that befell 18 year old Jett Higham, another African American youth who lost his life in a nighttime run to a local convenience store. The media decided that this tragedy was a non-story, as his killers were also African Americans teens. 

Similarly, we prefer to believe that the dynamic, entrepreneurial, 4% to 5% GDP growth economy that existed in the past is poised to return after a few more months of QE. To reach this conclusion one must ignore the ugly reality of what we have become. The staggering growth in government debt, the persistence of high unemployment, the stifling effects of new rounds of anti-business regulations, the existence of dangerous asset bubbles, and our dependence on zero percent interest rates and continuous Federal Reserve purchases of treasury and mortgage debt qualify our current economy as a walking zombie. 

We will never arrive at greater civic harmony until we are prepared to drop the addictive illusions supplied by the race baiters. Similarly, we will never abandon the current economic failures if we don't have the courage to look the brutal reality squarely in the face.

Peter Schiff is the CEO and Chief Global Strategist of Euro Pacific Capital, best-selling author and host of syndicated Peter Schiff Show. 

Print the Legend | Euro Pacific Capital

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## piwanoi

^ Good article Barboro, :Smile:  it just enforces my long held  opinion that this was a kangaroo court and it should never have gone to trial ,and of course would not have if it was Black against black , I have read quite a lot of Schiff's stuff in the past and obviously he's of the "right", so whatever he say's will be discounted and ignored by many, and in closing Schiff's description of the US economy is quite enlightening to say the least!.

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## koman

^^^

Outstanding article Barbaro.  It is saying once again much of what some of us have been saying on this thread for some time, but of course those who made their mind up the minute the photo of the barely out of the cradle Travon was splashed all over the media....usually followed by some suggestions about a "white" vigilante gun-slinger out hunting "African Americans" will not accept anything than what they chose to believe in the first place,  despite all the evidence.

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## piwanoi

^^ Great video  Lantern ,Thanks :Smile: , I said right from the start of this three 3 circus that Zimmerman was going to "walk" ,the whole  "trial"  was reduced to a joke when Obomber got involved with those by now immortal words, plus Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson stirring the crowd up their usual racist bullshit ,add to that the photo's of Martin when he was about 12 years old ,convinced me that to Convict Zimmerman would have been a travesty of justice , and your video convinces me even more now :Smile:

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## RickThai

> Originally Posted by RickThai
> 
> 
> I found this quote to be interesting, primarily because of the source:
> 
> Be nice to white men.  One of the besetting sins of many in the progressive and liberal movements is that they have made white men the enemy.  In fact, no ethnic group in history gave up so much power so quickly and so peacefully.
> 	From_ Post Empire Survival Guide_ by Sam Smith, editor of _Progressive Review_
> 
> Perhaps the 'black horde' should reflect and stop looking at everything as black vs. white.
> ...


You make a very real and valid point.  

In the USA, there are more poor Caucasians then there are poor Negroes.  The only way they can get ahead is through hard work and individual accomplishments.  There is no "hidden reason" to hire a male Caucasian.  In fact, there are very real reasons to hire a minority or a women, even if that individual is not as well qualified (no company ever had to pay millions of dollars for discriminating against a Caucasian male).

A Caucasian man generally gets hired in spite of his race and gender (unless he is a homosexual). 

RickThai

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## RickThai

> ^
> ^^
> wot they said


^^^
I agree.  Too bad the real "racists" will never acknowledge the evidence.

RickThai

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## Boon Mee

Facebook: 'Kill Zimmerman' Page is Okay but Bans Page on 'Chiggers'

  No word on riggers and giggers...

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## youneverknow

*George Zimmerman's Wife on 911 Tape: 'I Am Really, Really Scared' - Yahoo!*


 George Zimmerman was released without charges today after his wife called 911 to say Zimmerman punched his father-in-law in the nose and threatened to shoot him and his wife. 

  Zimmerman, acquitted in July of the murder of teenager Trayvon Martin,  claimed that he was acting in a "defensive manner" during the incident,  according to police.

  Zimmerman was handcuffed and questioned by police in Lake Mary, Fla., according to Lake Mary Police Chief Steve Bracknell. 

  He was later released without charges when his wife and father-in-law  refused to press charges or give police a sworn statement. Police said  they are reviewing surveillance video from the home and reserve the  right to file charges later based on the video. 

  Police said George Zimmerman volunteered the surveillance videos to investigators. 
  Shellie Zimmerman  called 911 shortly after 2 p.m. today and reported that her husband  assaulted her father, Colin Morgan, and was waving a gun around and  threatening her and her relatives, according to police in Lake Mary,  Fla. 
  Lake Mary police took the call "extremely seriously" and sent eight  units, including officers in tactical gear with ballistic shields, to  the home, according to Bracknell. 

  In the 911 call, Shellie Zimmerman tells a dispatcher that her husband  was in his car raging, adding "he continually has his hand on his gun  and he says step closer" When Shellie Zimmerman trails off the  dispatcher asks "step closer and what?" to which Shellie responds "a Step closer and he'd shoot us." 

  Zimmerman, who claimed self-defense after he shot and killed Martin,  told police in a statement that he was acting in "a defensive manner"  during the incident and did not have his hand on his gun, according to  Lake Mary police spokesman Zach Hudson. 

  Shellie Zimmerman and her father said they do not want to press charges,  Bracknell said. Both Shellie's lawyer, Kelly Sims, as well as George  Zimmerman's lawyer were at the home, ABC News has learned. 

  The 911 tapes describe a terrified Shellie Zimmerman. On the call to a  police dispatcher she told police that her husband punched her father in  the nose, smashed her iPad, cut it with a pocketknife and raged, "one  step closer and he'd shoot us." 

  "I don't know what he's capable of. I am really, really scared," she told the dispatcher. 

  When police arrived she could be heard on the phone saying, "Dad, get  behind a car or something. I don't know if he's going to start shooting  at us or not."
 The incident comes just days after Shellie gave an explosive interview  to ABC News in which she said that she's not sure she "ever really knew"  her husband through their seven years of marriage and felt she was the  victim of verbal abuse by him. She also said she believes the not guilty  verdict has left her husband feeling "invincible" and since then has  been "making some reckless decisions." 

  "I think I'm realizing that I have been married to a person for almost  seven years, and I don't think that I ever really knew him at all," she  said. 
  Shellie filed for divorce  earlier this month, just two months after her husband was acquitted on  murder charges related to the 2012 death of Florida teenager Trayvon  Martin. 

  Shellie said that she had stood by her husband throughout the ordeal  that began on Feb. 26, 2012, when he shot and killed the unarmed  teenager and came to an end when a Florida jury acquitted him of murder  this summer. 

  "I stood by my husband through everything and I kind of feel like he  left me with a bunch of broken glass that I'm supposed to now assemble  and make a life. ... It's just heartbreaking," Shellie said. 

  "I have a selfish husband. And I think George is all about George," she said. 
  George Zimmerman's legal team declined to comment on the divorce  proceedings. They did not immediately respond to requests for comment  today relating to the domestic incident.



-

* George Zimmerman Feels 'Invincible,' His Wife Tells ABC News 

*
*Shellie Zimmerman Tells Why She Filed for Divorce


*Listen to Shellie Zimmerman's 911 Call or Read the Transcript of Her Call to Police



-

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## youneverknow

Here's the audio of the 911 call. Worth a listen.







It's surprising that the Zimmerman supporters are not speaking up for their man.

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## billy the kid

how a guy that big and aggressive couldn't handle an unarmed 17 yr.old
and then a 107 yr old gets blasted to death by a swat team
or an 8 yr old gets shot by gun toting lunatic
it's still The Wild West.
Zimmerman is a fokin psycho.

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## harrybarracuda

So I wonder how the jury feel now that they know they acquitted someone who probably shot a teenager dead out of anger at being beaten in a fight rather than out of fear?

Like c*nts, probably.

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## ENT

The jury now knows as a result of that latest incident that a "self defence" claim by Zimmerman arose after he'd initiated a confrontation and a violent an assault on his wife and father in law. 
                                                                                                                They now also know that they acquitted a psycho capable of further violent assault upon anyone that he sees as a potential danger.

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## RickThai

> The jury now knows as a result of that latest incident that a "self defence" claim by Zimmerman arose after he'd initiated a confrontation and a violent an assault on his wife and father in law. 
>                                                                                                                 They now also know that they acquitted a psycho capable of further violent assault upon anyone that he sees as a potential danger.


How could you possibly "know" what the jury "now knows"?

You don't even appear to "know" how ridiculous this post make you sound.

RickThai

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## ENT

It's as plain as the nose on your face that Zimmerman is a nutter, and it's as plain as your post that you think the tw*t's an angel.

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## Albert Shagnastier

> how a guy that big and aggressive couldn't handle an unarmed 17 yr.old and then a 107 yr old gets blasted to death by a swat team


Tried to find it on youtube but its been 10-15 years and it's not there anymore.

A drunk with a knife in central park is threatening everyone. Police arrive (maybe 6-8), surround him and tell him to drop the gun.

The guy was so drunk you could have slapped the knife out of his hand blindfolded and on one leg.

They just executed him.

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## jamescollister

> Here's the audio of the 911 call. Worth a listen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's surprising that the Zimmerman supporters are not speaking up for their man.


I'll speak up for Zimmerman, he's been under a bit of stress lately, murder charges, people wanting to kill him, could make him a bit depressed.

We could introduce laws that say people involved in domestic disputes are crazed killers on the loose.

Can't watch the vid Internets too slow, but is she not going for divorce, not likely to want to paint a picture of a good husband. Jim

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## youneverknow

*Florida police chief: George Zimmerman is a Sandy Hook waiting to happen | The Raw Story
*
A series of indiscreet emails  by a Florida police chief has revealed his belief that Trayvon Martins  killer George Zimmerman is a volatile character who is a Sandy Hook  waiting to happen.

 Steve Bracknell is the chief of the Lake Mary police department,  which is investigating Zimmerman, 29, for allegedly threatening his  estranged wife, Shellie, and his father-in-law with a gun on Monday.

In an email exchange with a Lake Mary resident critical of the  departments initial decision not to arrest or charge Zimmerman,  Bracknell appears to agree with the writers description of Zimmerman,  acquitted in July of murdering Martin, an unarmed black teenager, as a  ticking time bomb.

Zimmerman is a Sandy Hook, Aurora waiting to happen, the resident,  Santiago Rodriguez, told Bracknell in his first email, seeking an  explanation for why Lake Mary officers did not charge Zimmerman.

Your reference to Sandy Hook  I agree, Bracknell replied.

 At the end of a follow-up email urging Bracknell not to give up on  the investigation, Rodriguez wrote: Sooner or later another mother and  father is going to be on CNN lashing out against the system due to this  man snapping.

Bracknell replied: As for your final thoughts, again, on a personal note, I agree.

Neither the police chief, nor his departments spokesman, Zach  Hudson, responded to a request from the Guardian for comment Friday, but  the political blog ThinkProgress, which published the email exchange on  Thursday night, said Bracknell confirmed the messages were authentic.

 It followed an off-the-cuff comment Bracknell made to a reporter from Los Angeles on Monday  in response to the massive media interest in the confrontation between  George and Shellie Zimmerman at her fathers house in Lake Mary.

Man, it would be fantastic if you had an apartment out there [in  California] for George Zimmerman. This guy is killing me, he said.

 And in one of the emails to Rodriguez, he insists: Rest assured, the  last thing on planet earth I want is any relationship with the  Zimmermans. Period.

 Police said on Wednesday that no decision would be made for many  weeks if Zimmerman should face charges over the incident, in which  Shellie Zimmerman called 911 to report he was threatening her and her  father with a gun.

 Hes just threatening all of us with his firearm, and hes gonna  shoot us. He punched my dad in the nose. My dad has a mark on his face,  she said in the recording of the call, made as the couple argued over  their belongings.

 Shellie Zimmerman filed for divorce last week and, according to the  police report, had gone to the house they once shared to pick up some of  her possessions when her husband also turned up.

 At some point during their confrontation, Shellie Zimmerman began  recording him on an iPad, which he then allegedly smashed on the floor  and cut with a pocket knife. Detectives say it could take months for  forensic investigators to establish if any of the footage is  retrievable.

 The investigation stalled when Shellie Zimmerman, after talking with  her lawyer, Kelly Sims, and her husbands attorney, Mark OMara, decided  she did not want to press charges. She and her father, David Dean, then  told police they had not seen George Zimmerman with a weapon,  apparently contradicting what she told police dispatchers.

 I do not know why she changed her story. I could only guess, and that would be improper, Bracknell said in his email.

However, Shellie Zimmerman is serving 12 months probation for  perjury stemming from a lie she told a judge about the couples finances  at her husbands bail hearing last year. George Zimmerman told police  that she hit him on the back with the iPad and that he smashed in to  stop her.

 Her backtracking left detectives relying on the iPad, which Hudson said was in really bad shape.

At this point, we do not have the tools available to effectively  look at the video. As it stands right now, there will not be any charges  anytime soon without that iPad, he said.

 Bracknell described Mondays incident as a very unusual occurrence  but denied there was any conspiracy or cover-up into why Zimmerman was  released without charge after only a brief period in investigative  custody.

 The 911 tapes needs [sic] to be supported by physical evidence of  the alleged physical violence. Since Shellie and her father refused to  prosecute, we were powerless to arrest anyone, he wrote.

Remember, we were the agency that wrote him a $256.00 [speeding] citation last week! No freebies here in Lake Mary.

*Originally from the Guardian.co.uk



-
*

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## harrybarracuda

It really would be as funny as fuck if this wannabe cop shot himself a white boy.

Imagine the spluttering from the gun-totin' cowboy freaks.

 :Smile:

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## gwargamel

Nothing in America has changed. They still kill epic levels of innocents. Fucking wankers. America the land of fools striped of all logic and reason,

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## Boon Mee

> It really would be as funny as fuck if this wannabe cop shot himself a white boy.
> 
> Imagine the spluttering from the gun-totin' cowboy freaks.


Yeah, that would be uproraringly hilarious...you sick fuck... :Yup:

----------

