#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Thailand and Asia News >  >  > Business, Finance & Economics in Thailand >  >  PFS-Platinum Financial Services: Ok?

## Scandinavian

Hi,
Has anybody had any savings scheme going with them? RL or Generali?
Any positive or negative reviews?
I just like to know more about PFS, as it seems I'll stay with them for a long time.

Thanks!

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## leemo

Might be a long time but best advice is to put no more than you can comfortably afford to lose.

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## Butterfly

> Hi,
> Has anybody had any savings scheme going with them? RL or Generali?
> Any positive or negative reviews?
> I just like to know more about PFS, as it seems I'll stay with them for a long time.
> 
> Thanks!


all those platforms are rip-off, all they do is milk you of service fees, hidden or not

if you read the fine prints, they don't really offer anything, except charge you all kind of administrative fees, some plans as much as 10% per year, and what for ? oh yeah, if you are British, you can avoid inheritance tax, but paying between 5% and 10% per year in administrative fees on your capital, not profit, for the next 10 years is surely more expensive that any government tax.

To make it worse, the "funds solution" they offer don't make any money, more likely will lose money, even if they lure you with big fund brand names. They are BETA funds, that is they simply "mirror" the market. You are better off buying a tracking fund or an ETF without any administrative fees.

Their "investment advice" is shit, it's basically worthless. It's so low level, it's embarrassing they could get away with such poor advices. Some advisors could be exceptions, but they are exceptions, and it's difficult to tell them apart.

btw, didn't you ask a similar question last year ? seems very familiar.

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## baldrick

Generali is who my company uses for its contributions to my "retirement" fund

nothing special - have a choice of a few different invest funds to point your contributions

its given about 10% a year - but I am not so concerned - it is just extra money in my package the company pays and I will shift it out when I leave - ( though I had been thinking to shift the majority out into a USD account early next year because of the implications of what I expect to be the choking off of the money printing by the us reserve )

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## Butterfly

> Generali is who my company uses for its contributions to my "retirement" fund


Generali is a better package, but also very expensive, but offers greater flexibility for adding new "fund solution". It's still 10% pear year in administrative fees.




> its given about 10% a year


I highly doubt that, I think you are confusing their administrative fee you are paying to them with income you are receiving  :Smile: 

after 10 years or some other non-sense, they do offer some kind of "payback", I think it's 5% of the initial fund, this is after they took from you 50% of your money  :Razz: 

it's fucking hilarious how people are so stupid, and give their life savings to those institutions without reading the fine prints, and get ass raped with a smile on their face.

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## Scandinavian

There is no way that 10% of paid in amount can go to Generali fees. I would have read it somewhere, as I read through everything before signing.

Generali is handling billions of $/e every year, and you say it's all shit and a scam? Not really the kind of proffessional advice I was looking for.

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## Butterfly

> I would have read it somewhere,


obviously it was in the fine print and you didn't read it, or you didn't understand their terms. Which plan do you have ? Professional Bond Portfolio ? it starts as low as 5%, up to 10%. The problem is the way their fees are worded in their agreement. Use Excel and do a simulation of their fees per their agreement and you will be amazed. I still have a copy of their agreement somewhere, and I will be happy to demonstrate here on TD.




> as I read through everything before signing.


don't think you understood what you signed up for, quite classic to be honest, 99% of individuals have no clue, and of course their "advisors" are there to make sure that the right questions are never answered.




> and you say it's all shit and a scam?


It's a business, nothing more, nothing less. It's the business of collecting funds and charging a fee for "storage" of funds. It's not a business for growing their client assets with risk adjusted income, they couldn't care less of your account performance, they get paid regardless  :Smile: 




> Not really the kind of proffessional advice I was looking for.


well, it's an honest one from one professional in the industry. What else could you expect from such companies ? they are not in the business for nothing. Is it a scam ? no, it's simply poor business practice providing poor value to their clients, that's why it's targeted mainly to individuals with dodgy characters presenting themselves as "advisors" (they could run a boiler room, it wouldn't be different for them). They are quite a few of those "advisors" in Thailand and they are the equivalent of TEFLErs for teaching at Thai universities in my opinion. 

At the end, it's all marketing, and that's what you pay for.

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## Butterfly

I will be happy to demonstrate to baldrick and Scandinavian the dodgy details of the Fund platform they signed up for, since I once contemplated such platform but was appalled by the ridiculous fees and the poor performance of their funds compared to a taxable comparable.

Because of the non-taxable nature of theirs solution, clients forget everything else and let themselves ass raped, just because they think they are going to make a fortune by saving on taxes, while in reality the burden of taxes is shifted to the marketing cost of the platform. It's an old trick, and that's how they get most of their client, by promoting the "tax shield" nature of their investment.

The FCCT had a couple of events with one of those platform promoting "tax shield" conferences on how to save on inheritance taxes for "expats", in particular British nationals, while all they do is promote their expensive service.

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## Albert Shagnastier

> PFS-Platinum Financial Services: Ok?


Heard it was a rip-off boiler room scam.

But hey, what the fvck do I know?  :Smile:

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## Happy As Larry

> Not really the kind of proffessional advice I was looking for.


You do realise that you posted this on Teakdoor.com - The Thailand expat forum for travel, lifestyle and fun.
Asking whether anyone has had experience of said company is one thing but with all due respect to Butterfly and others it is hardly the forum I would go to for 'professional' financial advice.

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## Butterfly

indeed, this is TD, and this kind of question is bound to be answered with brutal honesty

as for professional forums offering professional advice, not sure if they do exist. First we need to define professional. Professional sales people ? quite a few websites full of them trying to promote their services.

Professional Independent financial advisers ? don't think it's available publicly for a number of compliance reasons. It has been discussed by a number of Ethical bodies regulating Independent Financial Advisers, and "social networks" to get clients are frowned upon by regulators because they are too informal and prone to misunderstandings and regulatory violations.

The "offshore" Fund Platform as promoted here are not bound to any credible regulatory framework, they can basically get away with anything. I think ESMA is trying to address certain issues with European offshore platform being sold to European citizens, but we are years away from anything tangible. In the meantime, the abuse will continue.

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## Butterfly

another trick on the platform is the regular deposit. They charge you something like 2% everytime you deposit cash in your Life plan, and of course if you make substantial deposit per year, something like a regular lump sum, individuals will see their capital increase every year and think their account is growing but actually it's their deposit growing. Yes, some people are that dumb  :Smile: 

Example: lump sum over 5 years of 10,000 USD per year

year 1: 10,000 USD deposit, EoY balance=10,000 - 2%
year 2: 10,000 USD deposit, EoY balance=19,800
year 3: 10,000 USD deposit, EoY balance=29,600
year 4: 10,000 USD deposit, EoY balance=39,400
year 5: 10,000 USD deposit, EoY balance=49,200

Shit, I have been making about 10,000 per year on that account, I fucking rulez !!!  :Razz:

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## Scandinavian

It's not "Life", but "Royal London 360 Quantum" and "Generali International Vision". Sounds much better than "Life", so it must be good. :-)

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## BaitongBoy

> and get ass raped with a smile on their face.


Bonus for some, no doubt...

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## rebbu

Funnily enough I got an un-solicited email from them today. I binned it as spam as it sounded like a classic boiler room scam.

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## Albert Shagnastier

> Funnily enough I got an un-solicited email from them today. I binned it as spam as it sounded like a classic boiler room scam.


 :rofl: 

My Old Man looked me in the eyes with a serious face when I was about 10 and said
"Son, you need to start thinking about getting a pension"

I sighed, shook my head and said

"Dad, those fvckwits that sell you the idea (that you're now trying to pedal to me). You see those Porsche's they drive, flash clothes they wear and the way they seem to burn money in general?"

Dad looks blank

"Well where do you think they get the money for that?"

Dad looks blank (with a hint of pissed off ness)

 :Smile: 

No word of a lie - 20 years later Mofo's whingin about only getting 5k a year rather then the 20k promised (had to fight tooth and nail for the 5k too)

I told you so
Said I
 :Smile: 

Property/Gold/Real shit.

Never give a bean to these sharks - unless you're a mug  :Smile:

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## baldrick

> I highly doubt that, I think you are confusing their administrative fee you are paying to them with income you are receiving


I just look at the total of the contributions the company has made and the member valuation

I just did the calculation - it is 14%

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## Butterfly

yeah, as I suspected, you confuse contribution from your company with your account performance, classic  :rofl: 

calculating account performance requires a standard methodology that you probably don't know about. You need to remove contribution (that is deposit) and add back withdrawals to calculate a true rate of return. Your company adding 10% each year as deposit doesn't count as account performance.

Jesus, some people are really that dumb as demonstrated here by baldrick  :Smile:

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## Butterfly

> but "Royal London 360 Quantum" and "Generali International Vision".


gotta love their marketing names,

Oh yeah, Vision was the starting or medium range package, and there were 2 additional ones after that.

could you post the page with fees ? I don't have my copy here, maybe some of their terms have changed (I expect an increase in fees, what else)

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## baldrick

> that dumb


butters your explanation makes as much sense as using regedit to turn on your wifi

the total of company contributions is 14 percent less than what the fund will pay me out

seems very basic mathematics to me - so wtf are you sucking on ?

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## Scandinavian

> Generali is who my company uses for its contributions to my "retirement" fund
> 
> nothing special - have a choice of a few different invest funds to point your contributions
> 
> its given about 10% a year - but I am not so concerned - it is just extra money in my package the company pays and I will shift it out when I leave - ( though I had been thinking to shift the majority out into a USD account early next year because of the implications of what I expect to be the choking off of the money printing by the us reserve )


10% is nice.

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## Butterfly

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
>  that dumb
> 
> 
> butters your explanation makes as much sense as using regedit to turn on your wifi
> 
> the total of company contributions is 14 percent less than what the fund will pay me out
> 
> seems very basic mathematics to me - so wtf are you sucking on ?


except you don't have the basic mathematics to calculate the performance of your account. Those platforms are masters for hiding fees and misleading account reporting, and I think you fell for it.

What asset classes were the funds into ? and in what currency ? this could give me a hint how mislead you are about those non-existent 14%.

Regardless, baldrick is the classic case of an individual with no basic financial background being "played" by those platforms.

Post the asset class, and when they were invested into, and what you think the performance is, and I will demonstrate how you were mislead.

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## Butterfly

> 10% is nice.


nice, except it probably never happened. It's like asking a monkey how much peanuts he has in his bowl, he simply doesn't know.

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## baldrick

> Regardless, baldrick is the classic case of an individual with no basic financial background being "played" by those platforms.


no butters you are being retarded

the company has paid x dollars to date into the fund on my behalf
generali informs me that my value is x+14% which I can then have transferred to an account of my choosing when I desire

you do not make any sense

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## Butterfly

> the company has paid x dollars to date into the fund on my behalf
> generali informs me that my value is x+14% which I can then have transferred to an account of my choosing when I desire


14% over how many years then ? I understand you are being confused and it's difficult for you to grasp, but unless the funds you invested into were making 20% every year (which is possible for US Equities Mutual Funds this year, but not last year) and Generalli took their usual 5% to 10% administrative fees, I don't see how you can claim 10% per year, let alone 14% per year.

Yes, finance doesn't make sense for a lot of people, that's why they keep being ass raped by Banks and Brokers, thank god for that  :Smile:

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## Butterfly

send me privately your statements Baldrick, I will be happy to calculate your true rate of return on an annual basis, you will be amazed how poor they would be. 

I will be curious on what techniques Generalli is using to "hide" their fees. Probably kickbacks from Fund Management company.

Btw, Generalli was sanctioned by some European regulatory entity a few years ago for their aggressive and misleading sales techniques. It's a competitive market.

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## Butterfly

Those guys are currently promoting their platform to expats in Thailand, they do everything from legal, tax advisory, loan and mortgage, and Investment Funds.

https://www.devere-group.com/

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## baldrick

> let alone 14% per year.


I am not saying 14 % per year - it has been going about 3 1/2 years and the cash out amount is 14% higher than contributions

I don't really give too much of a fcuk as it is just a bonus

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## Butterfly

so what happened to your claim it was about 10% per year ? you were talking out of your ass again ?

14% over 3.5 year is quite poor, it's less than 4% per year compounded, and depending on the asset you were investing, you did worse than a basic Index Fund with no fees over the last 3 years. The rest of your performance was taken by Generalli administrative fees, so any gains are being taken out in fees, I guess for some it's still better than eating out directly into your capital. If next year proves to be bad for the asset class you are invested into, you bet that poor 14% over 3 years will turn to some negative numbers once Generalli gets all their fees. Watch out.

Conclusion = it's a free bonus from your company but it would be better invested in whores, beers or bars in Pattaya

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## Butterfly

> the cash out amount


also check the exit fees, any amount to be taken out definitely before the term of the plan will be charged some penalty fees. Basically, they lock you in all kind fees for the life of the plan. Even taxes wouldn't be that high in most countries.

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## baldrick

> also check the exit fees,


yes  , but I think it is acceptable




> Thank you for your email. 
> 
> -       Please be advised that there is _a withdrawal charge of $50_ which will be taken from your account.  
> -       If you wish to specify a certain percentage from your investment election please just write this on your form, for example 20% from JPM Pacific Securities.
> -       The payment of balance means where you would like the withdrawal amount to be paid. You can provide bank details or an address to send a cheque. 
> 
> Once you have completed the form, please email it to myself for processing. 
> 
> I hope this is of assistance, however if you have any queries please do not hesitate to contact me.






> Conclusion = it's a free bonus from your company  but it would be better invested in whores, beers or bars in  Pattaya


I am thinking that early next year as it is in USD I will place most of it in the bank in a USD account and wait for the cutting back of the stimulus and then convert to SGD

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## mrsquirrel

> Royal London 360 Quantum


Infinity Solutions, based in Bangkok, have spoken to me about one of the Quantum funds, Royal London was one of them and another one.

Initially it looked good, for a 30 year fund. Until I realised that ten years into it they were taking 10% of what I paid in. So for every $1000 US I paid in $900 made it to my account.

Didn't seem right so I spent my money on beer instead.

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## Kurgen

> Didn't seem right so I spent my money on beer instead.


A shrewd investment.

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## Butterfly

> Initially it looked good, for a 30 year fund. Until I realised that ten years into it they were taking 10% of what I paid in. So for every $1000 US I paid in $900 made it to my account.
> 
> Didn't seem right so I spent my money on beer instead.


here we go, the best part is their "investment professional" not even blinking when they tell you they will charge 10% on your money for doing fuck all. Like I said, they could be running boiler rooms with their poker face.

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## Butterfly

> yes , but I think it is acceptable


the 50 USD is nothing, but depending on your plan, they might still charge you the full 5% to 10% on the initial amount deposited, even if you take half of it out of the plan. Check the fine prints. 

So in short, they would still charge the "administration" fee on the amount you withdrew. Fucking priceless, isn't it ?  :rofl:

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## Albert Shagnastier

> Originally Posted by mrsquirrel
> 
> Didn't seem right so I spent my money on beer instead.
> 
> 
> A shrewd investment.


Amen.

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## mrsquirrel

> Originally Posted by mrsquirrel
> 
> Initially it looked good, for a 30 year fund. Until I realised that ten years into it they were taking 10% of what I paid in. So for every $1000 US I paid in $900 made it to my account.
> 
> Didn't seem right so I spent my money on beer instead.
> 
> 
> here we go, the best part is their "investment professional" not even blinking when they tell you they will charge 10% on your money for doing fuck all. Like I said, they could be running boiler rooms with their poker face.


He was.

I know some that have invested with him, it wouldn;t be my place to tell them not to however I wasn't confident with what was told me to.

I was shown a 'what i need by the time i retire' chart, even with what I planned to put away, I was still about 300k GBP under the target amount.

I will just keep paying my life insurance montyhly until I'm 65. If the missus is still alive, then she cann fuck off, if the kid hasn't managed to sort herself out by then, she can have the money and blow it on smack and whores.

64 years and 11 monthw look out for me in the Pattaya jumpers thread,

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## baldrick

butters , do me the mathematics on this

if 1000 USD is contributed per month to the fund , after 12 months they have contributed 12 000 USD

the fund advises you that your account is worth 13 800 USD 

that means it has increased 15 % in that year

I still fail to see all this trickery that you propose

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## Butterfly

^ your claim, not sure what you are reporting is even true since you get easily confused between contribution and returns as previously demonstrated.

anyway, what is the asset class they have invested into ? if we are to calculate returns and then annualized return over several periods, I need the asset value as the end of each period. You probably don't even know where to look on your statement for those.

first step to investment analysis: learn how to read a statement and locate the items needed to calculate returns

can you even locate the lines for the "administrative fees" ? probably not

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## baldrick

no butters

above is hyothetical , but similar

but I would like you to explain where is the problem - 12k is put in and after 12 months I could retrieve 13.8k ( less 50 USD )

forget this drivel about asset class , annualized blah blah - this is the snake oil of your average financial consultant

I can look at my statement - I see what has gone in and what I can retrieve.

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## Butterfly

> above is hyothetical , but similar


it's not similar, it's over simplification that doesn't exist in the real world. If you can't read your own fucking statements, then it's a pointless exercise.

The whole purpose of investment analysis is to do a comprehensive calculation and eventually do a comparison with other asset classes. For that, you need to understand statements and resolve the discrepancies between what is reported and what is actual. So, no, it's not similar. Only in a mickey mouse club for investment, it's very simple, but not in reality.

Hope that helps, but send me your actual statements etc... and I will "analyze" it for you as an exercise. Always happy to teach someone to be smarter about their investment.

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## Butterfly

> this is the snake oil of your average financial consultan


do you understand the concept of the time value of money ? it might be snake oil for you, but it's the pillar of modern finance and capitalism. Thais for example don't have that concept, that's why they have unrealistic expectations and ends up losing money most of the time.

nobody is interested with hypothetical, actual and accurate numbers is what you need to do investment analysis. You sound like a "boiler room" guy with his hypothetical 300% per year.

I want facts, not some BS story with a BS statement you probably can't even read properly.

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## baldrick

> but it's the pillar of modern finance and capitalism.


attempting to baffle with bullsh1t

all this waffle and trying to tell me I do not know is essentially your average boiler room pitch

I have told you - my statement says

the total that has been deposited by my company +14% - 50 USD is what I am entitled to cash out

the asset class that I care about is cash - the total fluctuates slightly with the price of the share bundle and I am only concerned about that as I think the stock market will have a good stumble when benake turns off the tap




> resolve the discrepancies between what is reported and what is actual


what discrepancies - are you telling me that what they have said in their email reply is a lie ?

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## Butterfly

> attempting to baffle with bullsh1t


bs ? you mean like you claiming you were making 15% per year when it was actually over 3 years ?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 




> I have told you - my statement says


you don't know what's on your statement, that's my point. Show your statements in details and I will call you on your BS.

I have read hundreds of those statements for dozens of individuals, it's always the same story, they think they understand their statements while in fact they always got it wrong with approximation. They think they make 15% but actually lost 15%  :rofl: 

You are no different,

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## baldrick

> you mean like you claiming you were making 15% per year when it was actually over 3 years


quote it then ?

I have stated many times that the total is ~15% more than the sum of what has been deposited




> you don't know what's on your statement, that's my point.


of course I fcuking know what is on my statement - english is my native language you Quebecois merkin 

not everyone needs a "low noise investment" , "time and space arbitraged" with "background corroboratory timeliness evacuation "

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## Butterfly

listen you uneducated British chav, you are barely literate in your native language, and at your age, reading is becoming a problem.

there is nothing sophisticated in analyzing properly your account, or maybe it is for you as some low level engineer

stop being a petty British chav for a minute, and get the proper education I am offering you. If you are too dumb and stubborn to understand that, then there is nothing I can do  :Smile:

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## Butterfly

> quote it then ?


see below, in the order of appearance in the thread




> its given about 10% a year





> I just look at the total of the contributions the company has made and the member valuation
> 
> I just did the calculation - it is 14%


you posted 14% per year, not 15%  :Razz:

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## Butterfly

> "low noise investment" , "time and space arbitraged" with "background corroboratory timeliness evacuation "


is that what it says on the Generalli brochure ?  :rofl:

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## baldrick

> there is nothing I can do


we are in agreement then

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## Butterfly

indeed, you are dumb as a rock and confuse annual returns with total multi-periods returns, 

and then get all minced up when called on it  :Smile: 

anyway, don't forget to spend it all on whores and bars when you are in Pattaya, annual returns won't matter then

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## baldrick

> annual returns won't matter then


recurring inflammations are surely a concern ?

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## Butterfly

> recurring inflammations are surely a concern ?


not annal returns, you devious dumb Aussie !!!

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## rebbu

*bump

I got cold called in work this evening by a co' called devere group. This bloke started going on about there financial services, pension and wealth services. 
I found their website
https://www.devere-group.com/

I dunno but they sounded very "boiler room" to me. There's a thread on TV but it's been closed. Any one got any info on them?

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## Albert Shagnastier

> I got cold called in work this evening by a co' called devere group





> they sounded very "boiler room" to me.


Sometimes, we answer our own questions within the same sentence  :Wink:

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## Scandinavian

I read some disturbing things about this Devere group online. I have a meeting with my fund advisor on Friday, I'll ask him what he knows about them.

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## rebbu

> I read some disturbing things about this Devere group online. I have a meeting with my fund advisor on Friday, I'll ask him what he knows about them.


Thanks mate. 
When they cold called me the other night I got a shock as to how much info they had on me. The had my office phone at work (unlisted), they knew what time I started work and where I was working. I reckon someone on the job is selling them the expat info. 
I had a similar problem in Russia with a boiler room.

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## Butterfly

> I read some disturbing things about this Devere group online. I have a meeting with my fund advisor on Friday, I'll ask him what he knows about them.


like what ? link ? and how is your fund advisor going to help ? 

he is in the same business as Devere, it's one of their competitor, and they use the same tools for their investment advice, so basically completely worthless advice for expats fools. I guess they are trying to catch that beer and pussy money before it reaches Nana or Cowboy.

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## Butterfly

> *bump
> 
> I got cold called in work this evening by a co' called devere group. This bloke started going on about there financial services, pension and wealth services. 
> I found their website
> https://www.devere-group.com/
> 
> I dunno but they sounded very "boiler room" to me. There's a thread on TV but it's been closed. Any one got any info on them?


they are regulars at the FCCT and often do "tax" presentation

heard one of their "consultant" pitching some old British Retiree dude who could have been a TD poster  :Smile: 

the "consultant" was obviously a TEFLEr, but he did a good job at presentation and being low key, polite and somewhat "professional" in the presentation. The retiree was obviously an easy mark and sounded desperate to invest his money anywhere so he could supplement his monthly income and finance his weekly trips to nana and cowboys. That's basically their market. Almost tempted to give a try for a laugh but I would be in violation of all my professional ethics. Must resist temptation of the easy mark. Easy money for sure.

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## Scandinavian

I'd be glad if you Mr Bbutterfly would refrain from commenting anything on my threads. Your input in my posts are not needed.

Is there a way to block this guy?

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## sabang

You can easily set up a savings plan invested in low or no load mutual funds, thus avoiding the costs and inflexibility associated with these insurance company vehicles.
Portfolio bonds were a great tax lurk for Brits for a while, but naturally they clamped down on that. Generally, these advisers (salesman really) want to sell you as long dated as possible a savings plan (the longer the duration, the greater the commission), or 'exotic' lump sum investments, that naturally pay higher commission than standard unit trusts.
Be wary of funds investing in things like long term forestry, legal loans, 'Fund of fund' Hedge funds (where you don't know what the heck is in there- I got caught by that), even student accomodation. The less plain vanilla, the less you should trust it.

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## Butterfly

> I'd be glad if you Mr Bbutterfly would refrain from commenting anything on my threads. Your input in my posts are not needed.
> 
> Is there a way to block this guy?


what are a pretentious little man you make,

this is why guys like you are the perfect mark, you can't face the reality and want to hear fairy tales in their investment opportunities, hence they get taken to the cleaner for it.

Post the links about Devere gossip, it could be useful for others. Or are you waiting for the right moment to pitch your own fund advisor company under the false pretense of asking for advice ?

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## Butterfly

> You can easily set up a savings plan invested in low or no load mutual funds, thus avoiding the costs and inflexibility associated with these insurance company vehicles.


exactly, but most people are lazy and don't want to do the research and go through the paper work




> Be wary of funds investing in things like long term forestry, legal loans, 'Fund of fund' Hedge funds (where you don't know what the heck is in there- I got caught by that), even student accomodation. The less plain vanilla, the less you should trust it.


amen to that,

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## Scandinavian

> Originally Posted by Scandinavian
> 
> 
> I'd be glad if you Mr Bbutterfly would refrain from commenting anything on my threads. Your input in my posts are not needed.
> 
> Is there a way to block this guy?
> 
> 
> what are a pretentious little man you make,
> ...


^ I won't post any more replies here, since I can't stand arrogant s.o.b's like you. Other's will get information in PM's though.

Class act f-ing idiot.

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## Butterfly

> I won't post any more replies here, since I can't stand arrogant s.o.b's like you. Other's will get information in PM's though.


Oh I see now, so you were pitching for your Fund Advisor. 

Are you one of those boiler room type consultant too ? and you are going to use TeakDoor PM to do your pitches ? very smooth approach dude

let me guess, your fund advisor platform is ...  :Razz:

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## Butterfly

here I have found the links on Devere. This one is about their recruiting of agents, it's quite funny to read. The problem is Devere is not alone, they are all mostly like that, even the big names like AXA.

Devere Group scam I went on the rip off course Review 285053 Jul 26, Temple, Texas, Devere Group @ Pissed Consumer

apparently the new hires have to pay for their own costs etc...  :rofl: 

it seems to be the perfect jobs for TEFLErs  :Razz: 




> Next I had an interview was with a guy who said he was the former coordinator for XXXXX. He was a real *** and I was a bit miffed as I had travelled a long way to Birmingham for what was in essence a 10 minute chat and a *** aptitude test for 10 yr olds, he was really only interested in whether I had the money to fund myself while abroad and that I was breathing.
> Next I went on the course. It was mainly based on learning a sales pitch. *I was stunned at the lack of financial training given.* It was just a comedy sales course about learning a sales pitch to lead a customer into saying "˜yes' .
> It would be almost impossible to fail the course. My trainer gave everyone the answers to the final day tests. The trainer on my last day sat down and he called the manager of my office and confirmed I had passed the course and that I would have a coordinator on arrival.

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## Butterfly

jesus, this is brutal




> I started as an IFA not a coordinator. I arrived at my office a couple of weeks later. There were terrible morale issues from the start. Staff were coming and going all over the show, arguing and shouting. There was unbelievable racial abuse towards one black and one asian coordinator by the managers. I was told on the training course I would get help with finding accommodation but when I arrived I was simply chucked a couple of rental website links and told to get on with it. Contrary to what I was told at the presentation, interview and by the trainers, I was told by my office manager I would only get a coordinator after a couple of months and in the meantime, I was handed a list of 100 or so people to cold call and get some appointments for myself.


This could be interesting to read for Harry, confirming what I have been telling him all along



> The final straw was watching as the manager and a so-called IFA laughed came back from an appointment having taken some guy for 10K in commission for a plan he didn't need and (as they pointed out with more laughs) was *underperforming* anyway. I didn't think there were really people like that but devere had plenty of them.
> Now don't get me wrong, there were one or two guys in that office earning good money but in all honestly, even they agreed with me that within devere there was *a culture of lies and deception* and you had to put your conscience away in a locked room because *you were taking clients for a commission rollercoaster ride*.

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## Butterfly

another link below, again they are not alone, it's a general practice in the "Life Insurance" industry

http://www.complaintsboard.com/compl...s-c335163.html




> If you have ever purchased a product through this company then I STRONGLY advise you to check the advise you were given with the product provider.
> 
> *In particular check the fee structure is as advised and the terms and conditions.*
> 
> If you havent purchased through them then my advise is don't. Avoid them like the plague.
> 
> I purchased an international plan and asked in depth questions about their fee structure and terms and conditions. I have since found out that documentation that I should have been given was not provided.
> 
> These documents would have answered all the questions I had, I therefore had to rely on information they provided verbally. This turned out to be incorrect which benifited them at my expense.

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## Butterfly

interesting how they do it, didn't know that




> A single £500pm savings plan over 25years will earn devere (not the salesman) £6, 300 in commission and not only that, the first 23 months payments that the client makes NEVER gets invested (it’s a front loaded policy) so all the clients premiums, that’s £11, 500 in total, goes in commission and charges!!!

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## Butterfly

isn't this our bkkandrew resident down there in that picture ? he seems to have changed name, but face is the same  :Razz: 

EXCLUSIVE -Top Financial Advisor - Now Laundering in Pattaya - Andrew Drummond




> But that’s a strange letter from one of the top bosses of ‘an international company’.
> 
> But nobody in this business says ‘We screwed up’  - and they earn money whether you win or lose.
> 
> That’s of course just one example, and Barclay Spencer International or PFS, or whatever, will no doubt claim many successes.
> 
> *The thing is both Barclay Spencer – PFS and the biggest of all DeVere’s  have two strands of worker – the haves or have nots.*
> 
> The haves are loaded and driving about in big cars. The have-nots hang out in cheap snooker bars in Bangkok because they are on commission only and still awaiting the expected earning ‘in excess of £100,000 a year’.
> ...

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## mrsquirrel

As I said on my previous post, on paper initially and through the BS it looked good. Once I had looked properly and asked for the paperwork showing Net it wasn't so good.

How they can justify taking 10% of the payments every month + the other charges. Fucking extortionate.

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## Butterfly

I have a copy of Generalli Fees with me, I will post the details here

those fees do sound a bit like extortion,

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## Butterfly

ok here we go for the "Professional Portfolio"

- Establishment charge of 2% on each deposit
- Admin Charge of 1.5% per year on your capital or investment value whichever is higher 
- Service Charge of 800 USD per year
- Fund Service: 1.5% annual charge + 50 USD per trade + Spread of 1% or 2%
- Termination Fees: 8% early termination decreased by 1.2% per year

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## Butterfly

so in short for 100,000 USD over 10 years, you will have the following charges:

you will have to pay 2,000 USD in deposit charge + 15,000 in Admin charge + 15,000 in Fund Service charge + 8,000 in Service Charge

Total to be paid in their contract terms: 40,000 USD ++

So actually you are starting with 60,000 USD to be invested in Funds, not 100,000 USD and you need to double that 60,000 USD in 10 years if you want to pay back those fees and have a small return that is at par with a 2% interest rates savings account. 

It's mission impossible, above all when the Funds they offer are performing poorly (with a few exceptions, but you need to catch them at the right time, like a stock) or don't beat their mandated index. It's basically a fee making machine targeting expats with too much beer money.

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## Butterfly

For "Vision", it's similar but the establishment charge are lower and the administrative fee higher.

- Establishment charges of 1.5%
- Administrative fee of 2% per year for first 10 years, then 0.3% per year
- if early termination, all administrative fees have to be paid until the term of the contract
- 1.5% for Fund units allocated

For a contract of 100,000 USD over 10 years, this means:

1,500 USD in deposit charge + 20,000 in Admin charge + 15,000 in Fund Service charge + Service charge + Trades charges

Total to be paid in their contract terms: 36,500 USD ++

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## Butterfly

something to review here for the CM Expat Club

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## bowie

> Originally Posted by baldrick
> 
> recurring inflammations are surely a concern ?
> 
> 
> not annal returns, you devious dumb Aussie !!!


Devious or is it deviant?

Butterfly; On another note, thanks for the financial breakdown/analysis, if nothing else it will get a lot of wheels turning in many heads, you posted a link to the CM Expats club? What were/are you flagging?

Thanks.

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## baldrick

> Total to be paid in their contract terms: 40,000 USD ++


no

in my statment I do not see any of your 40k or less fees

just the addition of the companies contribution each month and the total of what I would get if I cashed it out - which is approx 10 % higher than the total of what the company has contributed over the years

so in essence I don't think you have a fcukin clue as to what you are talking about

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## lob

> I'd be glad if you Mr Bbutterfly would refrain from commenting anything on my threads. Your input in my posts are not needed.
> 
> Is there a way to block this guy?


i'm perturbed. u ask for advice.  u get said advice.  very good advice. the adviser tells u, u don't understand, and even thats too complicated for u.  u need to listen and learn.  the first thing u need to learn is respect for the teacher. listen to me.....  the man is 100% correct. given a little license.

 what is scarier, is the fact that u get to vote.  so much for democracy.  god help us all cos the electorate certainly cant.

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## lob

exactly, but most people are lazy and don't want to do the research and go through the paper work

   not necessarily lazy,  uneducated, ..  that's not their fault, its the fault of the education system.  after all the elite's don't want the plebs to catch on to the scams.

  info for the uninitiated. if its got small print,,,, leave it alone,, a broad statement but generally so.  if ur trying to sell a product why the need to cover certain info.  and they all do.  that's all financial services.

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## Seekingasylum

Essentially, to become a financial adviser in Bangkok one needs to be equipped with the same level of skills as a painter and decorator i.e. if you can stand up and take a piss you can do it.

Well done Butterfly for your sterling work in highlighting these fuckwits and their fraud. Just pop along to the Black Swan any Friday evening and you'll see these tossers lagering themselves before their sleaze time  - they're the ones who wear white shirts and affect a feral arrogant air. 

I occasionally would let on to some that I was approaching retirement and wondered how I could QROPS and invest the dosh. Silly fuckers and easy to con not least because they are greedy pricks.

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## lob

> Essentially, to become a financial adviser in Bangkok one needs to be equipped with the same level of skills as a painter and decorator i.e. if you can stand up and take a piss you can do it.
> 
> Well done Butterfly for your sterling work in highlighting these fuckwits and their fraud. Just pop along to the Black Swan any Friday evening and you'll see these tossers lagering themselves before their sleaze time  - they're the ones who wear white shirts and affect a feral arrogant air. 
> 
> I occasionally would let on to some that I was approaching retirement and wondered how I could QROPS and invest the dosh. Silly fuckers and easy to con not least because they are greedy pricks.


   i'll endorse that.

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