#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Thai Visas and Visa Runs >  >  Amendments to Police Order 138/2257 (using monthly income)

## toddaniels

Okay you wing-nutz

Here are the amendments to ONE of the two police orders that are in effect concerning extensions of stays

This is 138/2557 and covers the supporting documents and provisos for extensions and 327/2557 is the criteria and conditions. You really use them in conjunction with each other but all I have is the first one.

For countries that still issue the income affidavit they will still be accepted like normal.For countries that don't issue them any more you need to show 40K baht (for marriage/raising kids) per month (every month). This can be in the form of tax statements based on employment here in thailand OR in transfers to a thai bank account from overseas for 12 months before you apply for your extension and for retirement you need to show 65K baht a month per month (every month) for 12 months before you apply for your extension. 

There is a post on the thai visa forum where someone says the immigration office is going to "work" with people this first year and allow less than a full year's worth of transfers to be shown

BUT

Unfortunately that's not how I'm reading the thai version.  :Sad: 

It says for the first year when someone retires they are not obligated to show the 12 months of deposits via bank transfers. They use an example of IF you retire in Oct you only need to show the deposits from Nov on. It doesn't make any reference to an allowance for the first year THIS new amendment takes effect.

I am hoping that in the other police order 327/2557 they will address this because it's the one that lists seasoning of funds etc. Until I get my hands on that one you know as much as I do.

I am sorry if this raises more questions than it answers..

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## Luigi

> OR in transfers to a thai bank account* from overseas* for 12 months before you apply for your extension


Finer details may be required for some. Does this have to be from your home country (passport) or can it be from any country? For example oil workers or sandpit fellas, getting paid from the Middle East, Columbia or wherever, can that be sent directly to Thailand and used without having to first go through their passport country? 

Could a drug dealer from Holland have money transferred from Ibiza every month and that be used simply by showing monthly transfers from Spain to Bangkok Bank?




> For countries that still issue the income affidavit they will still be accepted like normal.


What if their embassy still does offer the affidavit, do they have to use that or could they use the proof of income sent directly from Bongobongoland to a Thai bank?


It sounds like a step back in security if so. It was often the case that it had to come from their home country.

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## toddaniels

> Finer details may be required for some. Does this have to be from your home country (passport) or can it be from any country? For example oil workers or sandpit fellas, getting paid from wherever in the Middle East, Columbia or wherever, can that be sent directly to Thailand and used without having to first go through their passport country?


There is no mention of the funds originating in country of passport origin, only "from abroad". It would just have to show on their bank book as an international transfer in. 





> What if their embassy still does offer the affidavit, do they have to use that or could they use the proof of income sent directly from Bongobongoland?


IF the country still issues the affidavit of income from abroad notary letter and you want to use monthly income to meet the financial requirements it appears you have two choices; use the consulate notary letter as proof (like everyone has been doing) OR transfer in 65K baht a month for the previous 12 months before you apply for your extension .

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## Luigi

> only "from abroad"


That will open up a lot of options for people. Those working online or those being paid by non-Thai, non-home country companies, or those with multiple clients in different countries. 

To further it, I presume it doesn't mention that the xx,xxxthb has to be transferred as one sum each month, but if someone has numerous overseas clients that pay bit by bit from different countries, totaling more than the monthly amount than that could be used.


If so, it will probably help quite a few people that previously had to go the Multi-Entry Non-O route as they couldn't get extensions without a lot of ballache.

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## Maanaam

> For countries that don't issue them any more you need to show 40K baht (for marriage/raising kids) per month (every month). This can be in the form of tax statements based on employment here in thailand OR in transfers to a thai bank account from overseas for 12 months before you apply for your extension and for retirement you need to show 65K baht a month per month (every month) for 12 months before you apply for your extension.


So what's to stop a person with less than that simply revolving the money in and back out every month? The Thai bank book will show 40/65 k coming in monthly, and obviously that money is for spending so will be withdrawn, but could be withdrawn to send back home and once again be transferred to Thailand.
Obviously there's a cost, but I'm just looking at it academically. It might just suit some. Say the GBP dropped drastically and a retiree's pension was now 50k baht. The retiree could transfer his pension plus a revolving 15k each month.

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## rickschoppers

Ok, here's a question. I have transferred funds from my US bank to my wife's Bank of Bangkok account for the past 13 years. What are the chances of the Thai government accepting these funds as a monthly income? Zero to none? The reason I ask is because I would have to make a trip back to the US to change everything to my Thai bank account.

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## Maanaam

> Zero to none?


I would say zero. I've read that even funds to a joint account are not accepted. You may find it cheaper and quicker rather than go to the US, slip over to Malaysia, open an account there, and have your wife's account send money to the Malay account, and the Malay account send the money to your Thai account.
To save costs, I'd assume 120/195k per 3 months would satisfy Thai requirements of 40/65 per month?

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## jabir

In the old days I used my own account for the requirement, switched it for convenience to a joint account which was rejected, then changed it back to what was working. 

Glorious Thai leaders constantly fantasise about shedding their 3rd World status, in true Thai fashion without acknowledging that part of this involves growing up to become friendly and welcoming toward significant income sources, rather than instituting vanity projects that create new hoops for its expats. 
/daily moan

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## Maanaam

> Glorious Thai leaders constantly fantasise about shedding their 3rd World status, in true Thai fashion without acknowledging that part of this involves growing up to become friendly and welcoming toward significant income sources, rather than instituting vanity projects that create new hoops for its expats.


This.

I have a German neighbour. He's in his 70's and has been here for 12 years. The other day he went to "renew his visa" (as he put it) as he has done for the last 12 years at the Immigration office. He was handed a new form which his landlord has to fill out and the landlord has to personally take the form in to Immigration. The guy lives in an apartment block and the owner is always busy, but apparently if the landlord doesn't go in with the form, he will be fined.
How to ingratiate yourself with your landlord. It's just another hoop, this time one that landlords have to jump through.
Big Joke's idea on how to catch the bad farang.

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## nidhogg

> This.
> 
> I have a German neighbour. He's in his 70's and has been here for 12 years. The other day he went to "renew his visa" (as he put it) as he has done for the last 12 years at the Immigration office. He was handed a new form which his landlord has to fill out and the landlord has to personally take the form in to Immigration. The guy lives in an apartment block and the owner is always busy, but apparently if the landlord doesn't go in with the form, he will be fined.
> How to ingratiate yourself with your landlord. It's just another hoop, this time one that landlords have to jump through.
> Big Joke's idea on how to catch the bad farang.


Personally?  Strange.  They started issuing a new form 2 or 3 years ago - that gets passed to the landlord who fills it in, and attaches a signed copy of her ID - but its part of my submission package.  If we start needing landlords to go - a lot of farangs going to be homeless!

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## Humbert

> This can be in the form of tax statements based on employment here in thailand


I guess this would apply to visa for marriage to a Thai national but I don't understand why someone who is employed in Thailand and presumably has a work permit which allows them to obtain a one year non-immigrant B visa, would want a visa based on marriage?

Other than that it seems pretty straight forward and simpler than using an embassy letter.

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## Luigi

Landlords have always had to register any aliens staying in their property within 24 hours of their arrival. 

Getting a new extension sorta resets the clock, so not surprised they tie it into getting an extension as it's killing 2 birds with 1 stone. Also get a multiple re-entry permit while there. 3 birds with 1 stone. 

It wasn't enforced until around 3 years ago, when the immigration rozzers started going around to various condos fining the Westerners that hadn't been registered there. Even though it is legally up to the landlord to register them, and them that should be fined.


One of my agents rang in a a bit of a tizzy around 2 years ago, when a Canadian tenant got on to her that he had the rozzers on him about it. Anyway, he paid up as directed to by the coppers, probably not knowing the landlord was a Westerner or they'd probably have tried to fine both of us.  :Smile:

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## Maanaam

> Personally?  Strange.  They started issuing a new form 2 or 3 years ago - that gets passed to the landlord who fills it in, and attaches a signed copy of her ID - but its part of my submission package.  If we start needing landlords to go - a lot of farangs going to be homeless!


That's what he said, personally. He may be mistaken, but he was worried in case the apartment block owner was late. Yes, it will be a kerfuffle and I suspect will be dropped soon. All I have had to do is get my landlords blue book and my tenancy agreement.

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## Luigi

That's odd. 

If you're neighbours, you (would) go to the same Immigration Office as him, if you've ever been.

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## OhOh

What is the effective date of this revised police order? I suspect that may be an area to haggle.




> To save costs, I'd assume 120/195k per 3 months  would satisfy Thai requirements of 40/65 per month?


I would like to assume one payment of THB 800K per year   would satisfy Thai requirements of 40/65 per month. 

I would like the exchange rate to go back to THB 50/GBP.

I would like to win the lottery. 

I would like to get into Noi's pants more often.

Maybe it's my lucky year.

 :Smile:

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## rickschoppers

Any thoughts on this translation?

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic..._campaign=news

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## rickschoppers

> I would say zero. I've read that even funds to a joint account are not accepted. You may find it cheaper and quicker rather than go to the US, slip over to Malaysia, open an account there, and have your wife's account send money to the Malay account, and the Malay account send the money to your Thai account.
> To save costs, I'd assume 120/195k per 3 months would satisfy Thai requirements of 40/65 per month?


Something to look into and I would need to look into the fees and requirements to open a Malay bank account.

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## Norton

> I am sorry if this raises more questions than it answers


Good info. Moves things to more clarity. In my case, showing 65k+ per month over year prior to extension is straight forward.

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## lom

> To save costs, I'd assume 120/195k per 3 months would satisfy Thai requirements of 40/65 per month?


I wouldn't assume that since the amendment says monthly transfer. 
You can of course, as before, transfer the whole amount 400k/800k  in one go but they must have been in the bank for the last three month when you do your extension renewal. After that you are free to do whatever you want with them for 9 month, rinse and repeat.

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## OhOh

As many have implied this appears to be an amendment, dated 26th December 2018, to existing orders. Announcing some changes or additions but not rescinding many existing alternative methods of compliance.


That will allow your local TI officer ample "leeway" in their decision making. Wonderful.  :Smile:

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## Maanaam

> That's odd.


Your obsession with me is what's odd.
The old German is on a retirement visa and has money stashed away in a Thai bank account. Neither of those things apply to me.
I go to that same office once a year to report where I'm living. Will have to wait until June/July before I find out if my landlord has to present himself, as the German guy claims.
As I said, blue book and tenancy agreement is all I've had to show in the past.
Do keep up. Your desperation to find a flaw is making you overlook things, as usual.

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## nidhogg

> I go to that same office once a year to report where I'm living.


No 90 day reporting then.

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## Maanaam

> No 90 day reporting then.


No. Border runs.
Cue Lu and his WP tirade  :Smile:

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## stroller

> Does this have to be from your home country (passport) or can it be from any country?


Do your bank statements show the country of origin or is there just a short for overseas remission?

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## Luigi

^^ Hello.




> No 90 day reporting then.


Works illegally without a WP, licensing etc.

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## Luigi

> Do your bank statements show the country of origin or is there just a short for overseas remission?


I keep the money in a Thai bank account (BAY Mee Tae Dai).

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## stroller

> I keep the money in a Thai bank account


Yeah, me too.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 
But how does it get there, do the mules bring in cash on their return trip?

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## OhOh

> I keep the money in a Thai bank account (BAY Mee Tae Dai).


Presumably "the money" arrived from a foreign source sometime , possibly years, ago. As the current "amendments to the "Pension" or "marriage" visa extension" stipulates, currently:




> you need to show 40K baht (for  marriage/raising kids) *per month (every month)*. This can be in the form  of tax statements based on employment here in thailand OR in transfers  to a thai bank account* from overseas for 12 months before you apply for  your extension* and for retirement* you need to show 65K baht a month per  month (every month) for 12 months before you apply for your extension.*


I am presuming the phrase "your extension" refers to new annual extension required this upcoming year. 

Are you planning to send a months worth of "the money" back to your home country or another foreign bank account and then back to your Thai bank account, so that it becomes noted/described in, your Thai bank account, that it originates from a "foreign source"?

Or are you hoping that TIO will continue to accept that, possibly years ago, you imported "the foreign sourced money" and the source of income, untouched lump sum/pension/investments/dividend, continues to be classed at being "foreign income", received the year prior, to the upcoming extension? Or in fact the "foreign sourced every month" requirement will be ignored?

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## Airportwo

> I would say zero. I've read that even funds to a joint account are not accepted. 
> To save costs, I'd assume 120/195k per 3 months would satisfy Thai requirements of 40/65 per month?


Correct, they will not accept funds in a joint account, tried that, they had zero interest in even considering!

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## stroller

^^
Just need 400/800k in the bank, doesn't need to be monthly income.

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## OhOh

> I keep the money in a Thai bank account (BAY Mee Tae Dai).


You, like many others, have "the money", the required sums inside Thailand. In various bank accounts, investments, assets etc.

Presuming:

1. "The money" arrived and has been noted, from a "foreign source" sometime , possibly years, ago. 
2. The phrase "your extension" refers to a new annual extension required this upcoming year.
3. The current "amendments to the "Pension" or "marriage" visa extension" have been in place legally from Dec 2018 and they stipulate the following, currently:




> you need to show 40K baht (for  marriage/raising kids) *per month (every month)*. This can be in the form  of tax statements based on employment here in Thailand OR in transfers  to a thai bank account* from overseas for 12 months before you apply for  your extension* and for retirement* you need to show 65K baht a month per  month (every month) for 12 months before you apply for your extension.*


Are you planning to send a months worth of "the money" back to your home country or another foreign bank account and then back to your Thai bank account, so that it becomes noted/described in, your Thai bank account, that it originates from a "foreign source" in the current year?

Or are you hoping that TIO will continue to accept that, possibly years ago, you imported "the foreign sourced money" and the source of income, the untouched lump sum/pension/investments/dividend, continues to be classed at being "foreign income", received the year prior, to the upcoming extension? Or in fact the "foreign sourced every month" requirement will be ignored?

In my dealings with TIOs, their concern was only the appropriate sum had been "seasoned" sufficiently, in the current year .

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## Luigi

Phew. That's a relief.




> the "Pension" or "marriage" visa extension


I'm neither retired nor married.

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## Maanaam

> Cue Lu and his WP tirade


Bingo.

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## OhOh

> But how does it get there, do the mules bring in cash on their return trip?


The how does it "get" there, the when does it "get" there and under what Thai bank accounting column/Prefix, ATM, BTB, FXF is it credited too, are all equally important. Does walking into a Thai bank with wads of foreign notes count as a "foreign source"?

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## buriramboy

How easy is it to open a bank account these days without a non imm visa? Any banks in Bangkok you can just roll up and open one?

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## jabir

> The how does it "get" there, the when does it "get" there and under what Thai bank accounting column/Prefix, ATM, BTB, FXF is it credited too, are all equally important. Does walking into a Thai bank with wads of foreign notes count as a "foreign source"?


If you enter the country with a wad of cash, before going through customs you can make a declaration, show the cash, get a docket with a bunch of pretty stamps on it, and the money is thereafter treated as though it was transferred from abroad for official purposes such as immigration or property purchase.

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## jabir

> How easy is it to open a bank account these days without a non imm visa? Any banks in Bangkok you can just roll up and open one?


I suspect it depends how much you stack on the counter.

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## HuangLao

> The how does it "get" there, the when does it "get" there and under what Thai bank accounting column/Prefix, ATM, BTB, FXF is it credited too, are all equally important. Does walking into a Thai bank with wads of foreign notes count as a "foreign source"?



It's considered all the same - electronic mysterious dividends or wads of physical cash. 
Traditionally, no questions asked. 

Doesn't matter. 
A win-win for them.

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## OhOh

> Just need 400/800k in the bank, doesn't need to be monthly income.


Historically I agree. 

However the 400/800k appears, to my understanding, to be the amount of annual "income" accrued and sourced from foreign lands annually. To be deposited in a Thai bank, from a foreign source .

Not the, same one lump sum, deposited possibly years ago and utilised every year.

But I have been known to be wrong.  :Smile:

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## OhOh

> I'm neither retired nor married.


Possibly not "retired", who ever is, but over 50 years old then?

As you posted you kept the money in the bank within a thread discussing the ins and outs of renewing ones marriage or retirement visa extension, I assumed you fitted one or the other categorises. 

My apologies.

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## Luigi

> My apologies.


Accepted.


And no, still in my 30's.

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## Norton

:deadhorsebig: 

Jesus suffering Christ! Nothing has changed except some Embassies will no longer issue monthly income verification statements.

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## stroller

> And no, still in my 30's.


Type "D" (dodgy) visa then.  :Very Happy:

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## NamPikToot

TBF if some don't have the lump sum in a fall back position, which should make any propose change of this sort irrelevant, then perhaps they either haven't made correct provision for living in a foreign country or wouldn't be able to cope anyway if VISA requirements or a major life event hits them

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## Luigi

> Type "D" (dodgy) visa then.


No way Jose.

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## buriramboy

I lived in Thailand for 10 years on a combo of multi entry non O and B, meant a border hop every 3 months but never saw that as a hassle and no financial requirements. Always a way to stay if that's your desire and a weekend out the country every 3 months is hardly a great hardship.

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## HuangLao

> I lived in Thailand for 10 years on a combo of multi entry non O and B, meant a border hop every 3 months but never saw that as a hassle and no financial requirements. Always a way to stay if that's your desire and a weekend out the country every 3 months is hardly a great hardship.



Still seems the way among a handful of wiser old hands.

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## Luigi

Fok that. Border runs get old real fast.


Unless you're the likes of Dill spending a week in the Maldives or Hong Kong with a fine selection of fillies every 90 days. The poor fookers spending a day or two in cramped minivans or doing fly-in/outs must be fookin' shit sick of it by the end of the 2nd year, never mind the 5th or 6th.

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## bowie

Gearing up for the inevitable multitude of whining’s ‘bout extensions being refused; missed by a day, missed by a few Baht, averaging out too far more… 

Subjective: The police order is read and interpreted by the individual Immigration Officer. The police orders provisions are enforced by the individual Immigration Officer on the basis of his/her interpretation and an extension is issued at the *discretion*of the individual Immigration Officer.

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## Luigi

As Sir Norts said, much ado about nothing,

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## tomcat

> As Sir Norts said, much ado about nothing,


...thus endeth the lesson...for now...

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## bowie

“much ado about nothing”

Well, yes, it is, but, about 95% of “stuff” posted on forums fit into that category. These internet forums though do provide some actually specific and important clues, hints, opinions and leads.  The problem with anonymous internet forums is all you need is a computer and access to the internet to join. 

The real problem as Abe Lincoln once said, is, “you just can’t trust the information you receive on the internet”.

Enjoyable pastime for many. Problematic for a few folk.

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## tomcat

> Problematic for a few folk.


...such problems include a maddening lack of specifics and precise interpretations from Immigration authorities...on purpose, I suspect...

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## nidhogg

> ...such problems include a maddening lack of specifics and precise interpretations from Immigration authorities...on purpose, I suspect...


Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.

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## tomcat

...never say never...

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## headhunter

reading behind the lines as bowie puts it,"problematic for a few folk".
since BJ came to power we have seen a big improvement in him trying to stamp out agents,backhanders and those that are getting away with the law.
was it not? the british government the first to rock the boat regarding the proof needed to receive yrly.extensions via a letter of funds.
I read elsewhere that the BRITISH GOVERMENT will work with any international bank in the uk.that sends money to Thailand.
if they share this info there might be a few expats bums twitching of them claiming that they still live in the uk.so that they can claim their yearly pension increase.
immigration might want to know where the funds come from,eg.a bank statement showing from the uk.stateing it is a uk.pension.already we have to send a completed life certificate back to them.so this could be in the pipeline.

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## tomcat

...^remarkably similar to English...

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## Pragmatic

Copied from another forum.




> However, from 2020 applicants will need to make sure they are able to show a full 12 months worth of income coming to a Thai bank account.


 Does that still allow me, and others, to have their monies in a fixed term account. Or do we now have to show 800,000 being transferred annually??

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## Norton

> Copied from another forum.
> 
>  Does that still allow me, and others, to have their monies in a fixed term account. Or do we now have to show 800,000 being transferred annually??


The requiement:
"Security deposit of THB 800,000 in a Thai bank account for 2 months prior to the visa application.
Letter from bank or updated passbook to verify."

A fixed term account meets requirement.

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## stroller

> so this could be in the pipeline.


Could be, in your opinion.  :Smile: 






> However, from 2020 applicants will need to make sure they are able to show a full 12 months worth of income coming to a Thai bank account.


Only applies to those going the monthly income route.
It will be more difficult to cheat, a no-no with false affidavits and short-term transfers.

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## Pragmatic

> Only applies to those going the monthly income route.


 Sigh of relief, thanks.

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## bowie

> since BJ came to power we have seen a big improvement in him trying to stamp out agents,backhanders and those that are getting away with the law.


some of Hakparn's words as reported in the newspapers 

Selected excerpts from: 

https://www.chiangraitimes.com/thail...e-to-stay.html

Chiang Rai Times By Editor on December 16, 2018 

Thailand’s Immigration Bureau Chief Says “X-Ray Outlaw Foreigner” Here to Stay

BANGKOK – Thailand’s Immigration Bureau chief Pol Lt Gen.Surachate Hakparn told a press briefing yesterday that *Visa crackdowns in Thailand are here to stay.*

Frequent crackdowns on suspects who live in Thailand illegally have made other foreigners feel uncomfortable, but the bureau’s success in carrying out the campaign outweighs this concern.

Pol Lt Gen Surachate is aware that attempts to separate good and bad foreigners may have some unpleasant impacts, especially on those who live and work in Thailand legally.

In October alone this year, police arrested more than 40,000 suspects. Many of them were blacklisted and prohibited from re-entering Thailand.

The visa issue is also a problem when foreigners are lured into renewing their visas via brokers. Checks by police found their services involve many irregularities, involving forging documents that certify applicants’ financial status and false claims of their money records.

A law stipulates that foreigners who want to prolong their stay in Thailand need to have at least 800,000 baht in their bank accounts.

This is exploited by brokers who resort to trickery to make officers believe that the visa renewal applicants have enough money to pay for their living expenses.

They transfer money to their clients’ bank accounts in the morning to have the balance checked by officers and quickly withdraw it in the evening once the financial “proof” has been provided, Pol Lt Gen Surachate said.

It is not such a serious matter if their clients are decent people, but some might be criminals, he said. He recommended foreigners who need help to contact his agency directly.

By Wassayos Ngamkham The Bangkok Post

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## Norton

> Visa crackdowns in Thailand are here to stay.


Good. I welcome it.

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## lom

> "Security deposit of THB 800,000 in a Thai bank account for 2 months prior to the visa application.


2 month before the first time application, 3 months for applications made thereafter.





> A fixed term account meets requirement.


A fixed term account does tie up your money, money which should be available in case of an accident etc.
Fixed term account is rejected by some offices, they want to see the money in a plain Savings Account.

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## Norton

Yes, correct as related to 1st vs subsequent extensions. Don't know if Prag has used his fixed term account before but if so and accepted at his office then should be ok.

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## Norton

> A fixed term account does tie up your money, money which should be available in case of an accident etc.


I have 2 in Thailand. Money can be withdrawn early with an interest penalty.

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## Pragmatic

> Fixed term account is rejected by some offices, they want to see the money in a plain Savings Account.


 Nah, what they want is to see movement in an ordinary account on top of the fixed term account. Which really isn't in the rules. 





> Good. I welcome it.


 I too welcome the crackdown. But it's not the farangs that are abusing the system. It's the Imm officers that are the real culprits who need cracking down on.

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## headhunter

> Yes, correct as related to 1st vs subsequent extensions. Don't know if Prag has used his fixed term account before but if so and accepted at his office then should be ok.


I have had my retirement 800k.in a fixed acc.for 7yrs.and never touched it.they have asked me a few times what I live on,i then show them a savings acc.with a yearly trans.from the uk.never had a problem. [korat immigration]

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## Pragmatic

Just as an aside thing. My missus just phoned me and asked if it is correct that all farangs now have to have medical insurance? She was asked when renewing our car insurance. I told her it was being talked about. Is that still correct?

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## lom

> I have 2 in Thailand. Money can be withdrawn early with an interest penalty.


Is not accepted in Samui, I had one where the money could be withdrawn the day after you requested them.
Was denied the yearly extension but it could be fixed with a 20K baht "penalty" payment. 
I said I'll go with that, will be back later and so I was - 1417 days later I showed up at the airport immigration  two hour before flight departure and with an envelope containing the 20K  :Smile:   Fookin idiots never learn..

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## Pragmatic

I turned up at Kap Choeng immigration with my 800,000 in 2 separate bank accounts books. Same bank. Officer shouted at my missus asking why we were trying to mess him about. He threw the books on the officers desk next to him and walked off. The other officer gave me my extension, never a word said.

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## stroller

> A law stipulates that foreigners who want to prolong their stay in Thailand need to have at least 800,000 baht in their bank accounts.
> 
> This is exploited by brokers who resort to trickery to make officers believe that the visa renewal applicants have *enough money to pay for their living expenses*.


I don't need 800k in the bank nor 65/month to pay for my living expenses, neither in Germany nor in Thailand.

Hardly surprising people cheat with those unrealistic regulations. Now, health insurance is a different matter...

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## headhunter

yes as stroller puts it,health ins.is a different matter.that is what worries me,they know farang have TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much money.even if you show them plenty,immigration will want a cut off the ins.co's.and that with my health record will be ROBBERY.

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## stroller

Wasn't 400k for inpatient treatment the proposed minimum cover required (re. the insurance thread)?

I would have thought 800k in the bank would cover that... but let's not look for logic or reason where there is none.

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## jabir

> Good. I welcome it.


I quite like the theory, but as so often happens in Thailand it tends to collide with reality. 

An admirable anti-corruption drive, which will almost certainly result in visa firms and corrupt IOs pocketing more money than before on account of the 'more rigorous' requirements.

Fex, 


> They transfer money to their clients’ bank accounts in the morning to have the balance checked by officers and quickly withdraw it in the evening once the financial “proof” has been provided, Pol Lt Gen Surachate said.


Morning to afternoon is a bit short of 3 months in matters of financial 'proof'. Not sure if I mentioned it earlier, IO goes in with 804k to deposit in mate's account, he receives the confirmation sms, and a couple of minutes later another to say 804k was withdrawn, from his account, by somebody else. Have the RTIP also infected bank staff?

----------


## Maanaam

> Wasn't 400k for inpatient treatment the proposed minimum cover required (re. the insurance thread)?
> 
> I would have thought 800k in the bank would cover that... but let's not look for logic or reason where there is none.


Side issue: If the visitor's credit card has $xxxxx available, shouldn't that be considered as available funds?
I don't have 400k in a Thai bank, but I do have more than twice that available on my cc. If I landed in hospital tomorrow, and if my insurance didn't cover me, I would still be able to pay costs to the limit of my cc, which is much more than the stipulated minimum funds.

----------


## nidhogg

> Side issue: If the visitor's credit card has $xxxxx available, shouldn't that be considered as available funds?


I think that is considered available credit, not available funds.  And I would bet a fair bit that immigration would not accept it.

----------


## Maanaam

> I think that is considered available credit, not available funds.  And I would bet a fair bit that immigration would not accept it.


I agree it would not be accepted. My question is "why not?", if the rationale behind requiring funds is to be able to pay for medical costs etc?

----------


## HuangLao

> Jesus suffering Christ! Nothing has changed except some Embassies will no longer issue monthly income verification statements.



Indeed. 
And shouldn't be an issue for those who never felt the need, nor required, official verified documentation of [suspected] income from one's respected embassy. 
The base process remains the same.

----------


## Norton

A gentle reminder, "Amendments to Police Order 138/2257 (using monthly income)."

----------


## bowie

FYI

TV posted the official translation of the police order under 

CONFIRMED: Here is exactly what’s needed for retirement & marriage extensions (income method) from 2019

----------


## OhOh

> Here is exactly


Where?

----------


## Luigi

> official translation


Officially translated by the Department of Immigration??

----------


## bowie

Where?

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1076820-confirmed-here-is-exactly-what’s-needed-for-retirement-marriage-extensions-income-method-from-2019/


Officially translated by the Department of Immigration??  appears to be

----------


## OhOh

^Thanks.

Having read through the above thread I have concluded that the only  changes are regarding the issuance of an extension based on family  relationship or retirement. (Clauses 2.18 and 2.22) Both when utilising the annual income/pension/combination options.

The *lump sum or combination* options *are not* included. Both clauses 2.18 and 2.22 require evidence of *monthly payments* into a Thai bank,* from overseas*.

The "Family member" (2.18) states the monthly transfer to be *an average income* of not less than 40,000 THB monthly.

The "Retirement" (2.22) states the monthly transfer income to be not less than 65,000 THB monthly.
Effective from:

_"The requirements detailed here are in effect from 1st January 2019."_






Both are amendments to the original police order from Aug 2014.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwN...NHV1pXdWs/view

----------


## Luigi

> Officially translated by the Department of Immigration?? appears to be


Translated by Siam Translation for thaivisa.com. The translation of this document is for information purposes only.

----------


## OhOh

> Translated by Siam Translation for thaivisa.com. The translation of this document is for information purposes onl


I suspect the TIOs will consider the info pretty solid.

----------


## bowie

> The translation of this document is for information purposes only.


Yea, but that statement fits virtually all translations. Extensions are granted at the discretion of the IO. On that basis, only the IO's interpretation, and enforcement of, the police order (written in the Thai language) matters. 

I wonder if any foreigner has ever challenged (successfully or not) an IO's decision in a court of law?

----------


## tomcat

> I wonder if any foreigner has ever challenged (successfully or not) an IO's decision in a court of law?


...such action strikes me as a spectacular waste of time and money...using the services of a lawyer to offer a bribe might be more efficient...

----------


## Stumpy

> I wouldn't assume that since the amendment says monthly transfer. 
> You can of course, as before, transfer the whole amount 400k/800k  in one go but they must have been in the bank for the last three month when you do your extension renewal. After that you are free to do whatever you want with them for 9 month, rinse and repeat.


Exactly.  No change to that. I use the 400k baht in bank and live off it, then replenish 3.5 months prior. Way easier and far less complicated.

----------


## bowie

> waste of time and money


Well, yes. But, I'm not looking for a solution to a specific problem. Plenty of visa services exist with established back doors. Interesting to see if Hakparn will manage to close them all. 

But, if a Thai Court was tasked with a valid "translation" or "enforcement" task/case, would the courts rule in favor of "justice" deciding to enforce the law as written, or, would they side with the IO's decision, even if the IO's decision was against the "intent of the law"? 

Knowing, of course, the case would be tried far after the courts decision having any bearing at all on the principals involved. Concerning how long it takes for a case to be heard, and or decided, perhaps the complainant and the IO would both have died of old age before a docket number was assigned. 

The real question in this is; Do you, I, or another, foreigner have any recourse should an IO decide they just don't like you, or, want to screw you over, and decide to deny your extension even though you meet ALL the legal criteria, rules and regulations?

What would you do if your extension was "unreasonably" denied?

----------


## Stumpy

> What would you do if your extension was "unreasonably" denied?


Honestly Bowie I'd pack my shit and leave.  However my wife is tenacious and she would be in someone's face in no time about it.   :Smile: 

I wanted to add on edit that I know not all expats live here with Thai wives and not all have homes. My decisions and actions are based on my personal circumstances. While I enjoy living here in Thailand I will not be held hostage by some IO. I am here on the up and up and will not pay bribe or tea money to stay. My wife is adamant and refuses to pay any extortion type fees and that includes police money. Her belief is the way you stop it, is do not pay it.

----------


## headhunter

this surely is a blatent way of the ins.co's printing MONEY.never mind my history are they going to refuse ANYBODY,not on your nelly,never mind if you at deaths door they come up with a PLAN to keep immigration well blessed.have they who proposed this scam have any idea how many expats on O-A long term visa's that do their extensions every yr.what imm.told me I am not in their system as I entered before 2013,that is why I cant do my 90day report on line,i must leave and come back in with a new stamp.
this scam if it is passed by the cabinets next meeting will drive expats not to do their 90day and yearly ext.
one of the main gov.spokesman who voted for this to go to the next level was,the minister for TOURISM AND SPORT whats he got to do with those holing an O-A VISA.
not one of them at the meeting,was it 6 didn't come up with any case's of those on long term visa's being a burden on private hospital,and they said the public will BENEFIT

----------


## Stumpy

^ @headhunter,

Your posts would make more sense and be far easier to read and understand if you would start sentences with capital letters and end sentences with periods. Paragraphs also help. Your posts are like one big long run on sentence.

----------


## tomcat

> The real question in this is; Do you, I, or another, foreigner have any recourse should an IO decide they just don't like you, or, want to screw you over, and decide to deny your extension even though you meet ALL the legal criteria, rules and regulations?


...if the rejection is purely personal, I would suggest moving to another province and starting again...



> What would you do if your extension was "unreasonably" denied?


...move to another province and start again...

----------


## jabir

> I wonder if any foreigner has ever challenged (successfully or not) an IO's decision in a court of law?


 :smiley laughing: 

No, but seriously... :smiley laughing:

----------


## bowie

> I am here on the up and up and will not pay bribe or tea money to stay.


Yup, ditto, legit as the day is long, personal trait and training demand compliance. Never paid a bribe although I do tip (and frequently). Difference being a bribe is paid in advance while a tip is paid after the fact. Also, a bribe tends to be considerably larger. 

Your wife is on target; "the way you stop it, is do not pay it."

----------


## headhunter

> ^ @headhunter,
> 
> Your posts would make more sense and be far easier to read and understand if you would start sentences with capital letters and end sentences with periods. Paragraphs also help. Your posts are like one big long run on sentence.


I am welsh you know,never went to school much. :cmn:

----------


## bowie

> Honestly Bowie I'd pack my shit and leave.





> ...move to another province and start again...


Nope, not for me, cost prohibitive and in my opinion - "losing". 

Not expected, but, if I was refused an extension as I am 100% legit, I'd be documenting every single detail, then appealing to the highest level at the Immigration Office, then consulting with an attorney considering my "options".

I've just got far too much time, money, effort, sweat and blood invested in this country to walk away and/or fold. I would fight the system, any and all avenues, to the very best of my ability. Win, place or show I would "not go gentle into that good night".

----------


## Stumpy

> I am welsh you know,never went to school much.


Hey all good.  Just would be easier to understand the point you are trying to make.

----------


## bowie

First my apologies -thread is drifting off topic, Thai Immigration legalities may warrant it's own thread, but, probably not. 





> this surely is a blatent way of the ins.co's printing MONEY


HH, different thread, but, your points are well taken. The "insurance requirement issue" well, a very large can of worms that'll be if carried further - can only hope that competition will impact premiums.

----------


## Stumpy

> Not expected, but, if I was refused an extension as I am 100% legit, I'd be documenting every single detail, then appealing to the highest level at the Immigration Office, then consulting with an attorney considering my "options".


Well my approach would be the same I however will not stay if long term harrassment commences. I did not move here to fight govt agencies, that to me is costly and counterproductive. Packing my stuff in a cargo container back to the states is far cheaper then spending countless hours and dollars fighting it here. 

As we both stated. I am here with no hidden activities and have done all my due diligence. I doubt I would ever have a problem. I am thorough in all my docs and comply with the stated mandates.  I am not looking for loopholes and work around, those always bite you in the ass at some point.

I support the actions and intentions the Govt is attempting to do. Albeit the execution and communication needs some help.

----------


## Hugh Cow

Being a rather simple soul who prefers the least amount of paperwork possible and as I am currently only doing  LOS in 3 months stints then back to the sunburnt country for 3, I have been toying with the idea of living close but outside of LOS and just popping in and out for a month or 2 at a time but doing more often. Friends tell me it is doable from Penang or Philli as I have friends and support in both. Anyone had experience actually doing it? I suppose it might also be possible from Cambo or Vietnam or maybe Laos.

----------


## jabir

> Well my approach would be the same I however will not stay if long term harrassment commences. I did not move here to fight govt agencies, that to me is costly and counterproductive. Packing my stuff in a cargo container back to the states is far cheaper then spending countless hours and dollars fighting it here. 
> 
> As we both stated. I am here with no hidden activities and have done all my due diligence. I doubt I would ever have a problem. I am thorough in all my docs and comply with the stated mandates.  I am not looking for loopholes and work around, those always bite you in the ass at some point.
> 
> I support the actions and intentions the Govt is attempting to do. Albeit the execution and communication needs some help.


If the new anti-corruption and health concern extortions go through you will be in fine company as collateral damage.

----------


## bowie

Hugh Cow - 

Ex-military and well traveled. I hate travel (naught but work, work and more work), it gets very old, very fast... to each their own, if constant travel doesn't bother you, try it. If the plan goes sour on you, change the plan. Flexibility.

----------


## headhunter

i will be with you bowie,if they reject my self cover,i have a honest attorney of law who would surely be interested as she is married to a farang and is highly recommended.

----------


## Hugh Cow

> Hugh Cow - 
> 
> Ex-military and well traveled. I hate travel (naught but work, work and more work), it gets very old, very fast... to each their own, if constant travel doesn't bother you, try it. If the plan goes sour on you, change the plan. Flexibility.


My thoughts. nothing cast in stone. Just wondered if anyone else was doing it.

----------


## Stumpy

> As Sir Norts said, much ado about nothing,


Yep.  I will say though it's amazing the panic, chaos etc about it all.  I suspect only the ones not here legit are wound up.

----------


## Seekingasylum

There still is no mention of the combination method of qualification for retirement i.e lump sum held of, say, X which added to monthly income of y makes a total of 800,000. The new order simply refers to a monthly transfer of not less than 65,000 being the requirement.
Will this be covered in the awaited Order, Tod? 
Given the 20% reduction in £ exchange rate I should imagine many Brits without Thai spouses on retirement visas will be very worried if the combination route is cancelled. 

Any views or thoughts Tod?

----------


## headhunter

> Yep.  I will say though it's amazing the panic, chaos etc about it all.  I suspect only the ones not here legit are wound up.


yep its only the ones that are here legit have to worry as we know what could be in GREEDY SCAMING MINDS.
FARANG HE TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH MONEY.
I WANT.

----------


## OhOh

> I suspect only the ones not here legit are wound up.


What, prior to the amendments adopted on 1st January, was "legitimate" has now been made illegitimate. The requirements have been backdated which makes it legally impossible to meet the now required monthly income input in December 2018.

It's the failure of the Thai Immigration to clarify the new amendments prior to the start date and the failure of the four countries embassies to ensure the change over affects are nullified. 

If what has been published is the new norm all can modify their actions and comply. Wound up or not.




> the combination method of qualification for retirement


The reference to the combination option included in the previous, up to December 2018 guidlines, was in the clause 2.22. Currently, from the translation in English posted here from TV, it is missing.

Either the option is;

1. No longer available, 
2. The translation is incomplete, 
3. It may appear in a separate clause.

Plan for 1. and be relieved if either of the other two are adopted.

 :Smile:

----------


## tomcat

> Yep, it's only the ones that are not legit here that have to worry


...ftfy...

----------


## bowie

Legit: yes, legitimate... many are by definition legitimate yet riding a razors edge of "adequate" money coming in and meeting the specific criteria. It was easy for them to get the Embassy income verification letter/affidavit. 

Now, their income will "scrutinized". It will happen where, folks who have more than adequate income coming into Thailand to support themselves and their families quite easily, yet, will run afoul of this new required scrutiny. Pity the folk who will, and there will be several, who can easily afford to live here on their income but, will NOT meet the income requirements. 

Some of the IO's I have dealt with would fail a THB 399,999 deposit where the THB 400,000 is required or fail a two month 29 day aging. 'Tis the letter of the law and it is inarguable.  

These folk are NOT the criminal bad guys out - they are no harm folk living their lives, taking care of their families who will be hurt by the latest stringent regulations.

Yup, "collateral damage" - so be it. *However: Exceptions Should Be Made.*

 In his "X-ray" press conference, concerning falsification of financial records by visa brokers, Pol Lt Gen Surachate Hakparn said.

"It is not such a serious matter if their clients are decent people, but some might be criminals, he said. He recommended foreigners who need help to contact his agency directly."

It certainly would be nice if a year down the road a few stories of folk who have established their family life here, who do support themselves and their families yet do not "burden" Thailand, report that they did receive an "exception" to the financial requirements...

Don't hold your breath.

----------


## Stumpy

> If what has been published is the new norm all can modify their actions and comply. Wound up or not.


My statement was probably unfair.  I responded to this thread after I read (skimmed) over 10 or so pages on another site where people just don't seem to understand the updates and changes.  I apologize to those I may have offended with my Legit crack albeit there are probably a few. But  FFS can't people just comprehend what has been written? No matter what is said on this or any other site  the final release is out there documented and yet people are still apparently total confused and posting "What about this" "What about that" "Can I do this" Can I do that"

----------


## OhOh

^No apology needed to me.

My beef is with the written/translated/highly likely to be accurate, document and the impossible requirements. The requirement for a full 12 months validated deposit may or may not be understood by my TIO next November. Not my fault, it's the Thai stipulated timetable and revised options. If they had published this document and given all the info 6 months ago and everyone ignored it I can sympathise with those who say be prepared or face the consequences.

And of course my wonderful UK Embassy in Bangkok, who have shown their contempt for those who pay their wages, once again. 

I'll try a Canadian Passport.

----------


## stroller

> responded to this thread after I read (skimmed) over 10 or so pages on another site where people just don't seem to understand the updates and changes


They're dumb mofos on TV.
One would have to be to be a regular there.

----------


## Norton

> my wonderful UK Embassy in Bangkok, who have shown their contempt for those who pay their wages


Along with the US embassy, the culprits in this circle jerk. It is the embassy that should be devising a process to "verify" income not Thai immigration who are happy to accept an embassy income statement.




> full 12 months validated deposit may or may not be understood by my TIO next November


I socialize with my IO folks so by the time my extension is due, which coincidentally is also November, what is required will be well defined.

----------


## Humbert

> The requirement for a full 12 months validated deposit may or may not be understood by my TIO next November.


Why not? They look at direct deposit bank books every day. Seems pretty straight forward to me. Unless you are trying to grift the system somehow why the anxiety? Maybe time to move to a country that's more accomodating like Russia. You'd  probably feel at home.

----------


## bowie

> Along with the US embassy, the culprits in this circle jerk.


Interesting spin there doc… seems to me the Brits were the first lemming jumping off the cliff, or, perhaps it’s just a manifestation of the brit standard answer number one “just blame it all on the Yanks.” 





> what is required will be well defined.


What is required has always been deferred to this (from the ministry of foreign affairs):

Thailand Visa Information : Issuance of Visa - Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Kingdom of Thailand

The extension of stay as well as the change of certain type of visa is *solely at the discretion of the Immigration officer.*

Those qualified persons can obtain an additional one year stay permit counting from the date of entry in the Kingdom pertaining to the Office of the Immigration Bureau's regulations on extension of stay. The extension of stay is *at the discretion of the Immigration officer.*

Thailand Visa Information : Non-Immigrant Visa "O-A" (Long Stay) - Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Kingdom of Thailand

5.4  Foreigner who wishes to extend his or her stay shall submit a request for extension of stay at the Office of the Immigration Bureau with documented evidence of money transfer or a deposit account in Thailand or an income certificate showing an amount of not less than 800,000 Baht *or* an income certificate plus a deposit account showing a total amount of not less than 800,000 Baht.  A one-year extension of stay shall be granted *at the discretion of the immigration officer* to the foreigner as long as he or she meets the above requirements.


So, until these statements are modified, you, we, and every other Tom, Dick and Harry, are at the mercy of the IO. (Nice if you can socialize with them - mine present a formidable wall of scowling "unfriendliness" less one smiling' lass) 

We will do what we have to do.

----------


## OhOh

> Unless you are trying to grift the system somehow why the anxiety?


Not at all. Over the past six years I determined the best scenario for myself, have that scenario agreed with my TIO and plan accordingly. 

As you may be aware, until Jan 2019 there was a combination scenario. Which I utilised. That scenario appears not to be available currently. In addition there is a new requirement, for the retirement extension, that the income portion is required to be deposited monthly and be from a foreign source for 12 months prior to ones extension application, explicitly stated. 

The marriage extension can be an average monthly deposit, from a foreign source. No mention of the seasoning requirement, so far, for that foreign income. Potentially that appears to be the best route in terms of money movement fees and exposure to the Thai banking system.

I am due a 90 day report trip soon, I will discuss what rules will be applied in November and have them written down for my records when I report. I will also share the results here.




> Seems pretty straight forward to me


Introducing a legal requirement in Jan 2019, backdated to November 2018 in my case. Some maybe asked to provide evidence of the foreign, monthly, income deposit, into a Thai bank account, from July 2018.

Sure it seems quite legal and straight forward. You are relying on a sensible TIO's interpretation. 

 :rofl:  




> a country that's more accomodating like Russia.


I have already lived and worked in many countries; a damp overcast drizzly country, a very cold country,  a hot sandy ME country, a warm sophisticated southern European country.......... been there, done those lifestyles. It's a tropical country's turn currently.  :Smile: 

How about you?

----------


## tomcat

> I will also share the results here


...such action would be a wonderful and unexpected turn...assuming the information you post is presented in a straightforward and accurate manner...

----------


## toddaniels

> I wouldn't assume that since the amendment says monthly transfer. 
> You can of course, as before, transfer the whole amount 400k/800k  in one go but they must have been in the bank for the last three month when you do your extension renewal. After that you are free to do whatever you want with them for 9 month, rinse and repeat.


there you go assuming things again lom.

It specifically states a minimum monthly transfer (40K marriage raising kids / 65K retirement) into a thai bank account from abroad EVERY month for 12 months BEFORE you apply for your extension. I asked at the immigration office and she pointed out how the clause was written stating you couldn'd do 130 one month and then skip a month, It's written as EVERY MONTH for the previous 12 months

----------


## toddaniels

Okay to be honest I didn't read the previous 5 pages of responses because some of those posts had NOTHING to do with these changes at all
As far as the TM.30 <- that's the form with the oh-so long name of Notification From For House-Master, Owner Or The Possessor Of The Residence Where Alien Has Stayed.
This has been a law since 1979 but only recently started being enforced. In some places they're saying you need to file a new TM.30 within 24 hours of coming back 'home' even if you were only traveling domestically in thailand BUT most immigration offices go under the within 24 hours of returning home after being out of the country. All you do is go back give them your new departure card number arrival date, they update the system and stamp your receipt with the date.
People (EVEN private residences) can sign up to use the online TM.30 program.
Here's the link to it (it's in thai because this IS thailand and in theory it's the landlord that has to file the TM.30) Unfortunately IF your land lord doesn't file one it's YOU who can't get anything done at the immigration office not him. Some offices won't let you do a 90 day report, get an extension, get a residence certificate or a re-entry permit UNTIL you have done a TM.30.
Bangkok seems to be the exception AND if you're using the same address for your yearly extension you won't be asked for one. They also don't ask for them for people doing 30 day visa exempt entry or tourist visa extensions either.

Here's the website for the online TM.30 program <- you sign up make a user name and the immigration office sends you a temp password, you log in change the password and then you can file TM.30's online. There is no print receipt function so you have to do a 'print screen' of the page showing your data to carry with you.
https://extranet.immigration.go.th/fn24online/

Also here's the thai language video to show to thais who think they don't have to do it.

----------


## Dragonfly

> there you go assuming things again lom.
> 
> It specifically states a minimum monthly transfer (40K marriage raising kids / 65K retirement) into a thai bank account from abroad EVERY month for 12 months BEFORE you apply for your extension. I asked at the immigration office and she pointed out how the clause was written stating you couldn'd do 130 one month and then skip a month, It's written as EVERY MONTH for the previous 12 months


bullshit, they accept one lump sum in the bank even if it was tranfered 2 months before

----------


## Dragonfly

you can't assume IO will follow the law to the letter, most don't even understand their own orders to follow the law, and Thai language can be very fuzy (like all primitive language) in explaining things, in particular laws where legislators will give general meanings to certain principles

----------


## toddaniels

Just so we're totally clear IF it was not mentioned in this police order it means the rules didn't change for the extension or method to get the extension 

Just to summarize the new Police Order:

 NO changes for application of a VISA at a Thai Consulate or Embassy

 NO changes for foreign women married to Thai men

  NO changes for people using the banked money, 800K baht for being over 50 years of age or 400K baht for foreign  men married to Thai women.

 NO changes if you Embassy still hand out the Income affidavit.

  Changes for as far as we know for citizens of 4 countries, these are  UK, USA, Australia and Denmark, just because these people can not get an  income affidavit of their Embassy.
NO changes if used banked money method for proof of funds 
BUT 
Using monthly income method you MUST show:
 Minimum 65K baht deposits from foreign country into their Thai bank account if over 50 years of age
 Minimum 40K baht deposits from foreign country into their Thai bank account if married to a thai 
 These deposits have to be done 12 months, every month prior the application date.

----------


## lom

> there you go assuming things again lom.


Again? And can you read?
 I said I *don't* assume that you can transfer the money once each 3 month.

----------


## OhOh

> NO changes for people using the banked money


Are you suggesting that if one has at least 400k/800k in a Thai bank for 3 months prior to application, your "banked money", the TIO will accept that as proof of income?

----------


## nidhogg

> Are you suggesting that if one has at least 400k/800k in a Thai bank for 3 months prior to application, your "banked money", the TIO will accept that as proof of income?


My understanding, FWIW, is that you have two options.  Proof of funds (800/400k in a bank) OR  proof of income ( 65/40 k per month).

----------


## bowie

Kinda round in circles on this, but, the question was;

if you cant get an embassy income letter/affidavit, what will immigration accept as evidence of income? 

the answer is; monthly deposits in your bank book.

----------


## stroller

> Are you suggesting that if one has at least 400k/800k in a Thai bank for 3 months prior to application, your "banked money", the TIO will accept that as proof of income?


Can't you read?
_No_ changes if you use the money-in-the-bank option.

----------


## OhOh

> Can't you read?
> No changes if you use the money-in-the-bank option.



I will await my visit to my local TIO for and determine what they will accept.

If I am in error I will admit it.

----------


## nidhogg

^ jeeze.  Hard work.  That document is a clarification of a single clause in the original document, which still has validity.  It ONLY addresses the documentation required for proof of income.

----------


## OhOh

Yes, TMI, it's been simplified. :Smile:

----------


## Seekingasylum

> Kinda round in circles on this, but, the question was;
> 
> “if you can’t get an embassy income letter/affidavit, what will immigration accept as evidence of income?” 
> 
> the answer is; monthly deposits in your bank book.


Indeed, but the point is, in these times when western currencies have devalued significantly since the financial criteria were increased by Thaksin,  who in their right fucking mind who owns their property and car, and uses a global credit card from their originating country, and who lives alone in retirement would want to transfer every fucking month 65,000 baht from their own country to a Thai bank account. It's just plain fucking stupid and unnecessary in a third world country. Christ, an old guy living alone up in the boonies simply couldn't spend that on himself even if he wanted to and what the fuck is a guy who has his beach condo in Hua Hin and content to take his pleasures quietly and soberly going to do if he hates golf and prefers onanism to commercial sex?
As I said before, quite a few singleton Brits who retired 10 - 15 years ago on reasonable pensions will now be screwed and I suspect a few owners will have to sell their condos to qualify via the lump sum route.

----------


## Seekingasylum

> Just so we're totally clear IF it was not mentioned in this police order it means the rules didn't change for the extension or method to get the extension 
> 
> Just to summarize the new Police Order:
> 
>  NO changes for application of a VISA at a Thai Consulate or Embassy
> 
>  NO changes for foreign women married to Thai men
> 
>   NO changes for people using the banked money, 800K baht for being over 50 years of age or 400K baht for foreign  men married to Thai women.
> ...


Tod, you have not responded to my earlier query and it is one that will affect many Brits who live alone and are on retirement extensions obtained by qualifying under the combination route using income and lump sum. There has been no mention of this anywhere - there are no doubt many who have an annual pensionable income of, say, £12,000 per annum but only £8,000 in a lump sum. Have you canvassed this scenario with your immigration contacts? 

It is quite a valid point, I think.

----------


## toddaniels

> Tod, you have not responded to my earlier query and it is one that will affect many Brits who live alone and are on retirement extensions obtained by qualifying under the combination route using income and lump sum. There has been no mention of this anywhere - there are no doubt many who have an annual pensionable income of, say, £12,000 per annum but only £8,000 in a lump sum. Have you canvassed this scenario with your immigration contacts? 
> 
> It is quite a valid point, I think.


Sorry, I don't come on this forum all that much..
I did hash that out monday and the combination method CAN be used IF you have 12 months of previous incoming transfers from abroad AND money banked for the requisite period to total 800K baht for the year.

----------


## Seekingasylum

Thank you for your reply. I shall pass this on. Although we are yet to see anything official from the Thai it is useful to know from the horse's mouth, so to speak, the combination route is still available.

----------


## Luigi

> Indeed, but the point is, in these times when western currencies have devalued significantly since the financial criteria were increased by Thaksin, who in their right fucking mind who owns their property and car, and uses a global credit card from their originating country, and who lives alone in retirement would want to transfer every fucking month 65,000 baht from their own country to a Thai bank account. It's just plain fucking stupid and unnecessary in a third world country. Christ, an old guy living alone up in the boonies simply couldn't spend that on himself even if he wanted to and what the fuck is a guy who has his beach condo in Hua Hin and content to take his pleasures quietly and soberly going to do if he hates golf and prefers onanism to commercial sex?
> As I said before, quite a few singleton Brits who retired 10 - 15 years ago on reasonable pensions will now be screwed and I suspect a few owners will have to sell their condos to qualify via the lump sum route.


Drama Queen Alert.

----------


## tomcat

> Drama Queen Alert.


... :rofl: ...my thought, too: an onanistic loner up in the hills somewhere...

----------


## pseudolus

> Thank you for your reply. I shall pass this on. Although we are yet to see anything official from the Thai it is useful to know from the horse's mouth, so to speak, the combination route is still available.


... ahh the old "asking for a friend" routine heh?

----------


## OhOh

> Sorry, I don't come on this forum all that much..
> I did hash that out monday and the combination method CAN be used IF you have 12 months of previous incoming transfers from abroad AND money banked for the requisite period to total 800K baht for the year.


 
Thanks for that positive reply.

As the revised order was announced to be effective from Jan 1st 2019did you discuss if any leeway in the twelve months rule would be available?

----------


## Humbert

> Drama Queen Alert.


I'm surprised he cares at all about such mundane issues. I always suspected him of living on an 150' yacht, lounging around in a caftan, surrounded by oiled bodied male servants.

----------


## NamPikToot

> I'm surprised he cares at all about such mundane issues. I always suspected him of being 150lbs overweight,  lounging around in a caftan, surrounded by oiled bodied male servants.


Humbert i think you got it :Smile:  just missing a Sausage entree

----------


## toddaniels

> Thanks for that positive reply.
> 
> As the revised order was announced to be effective from Jan 1st 2019did you discuss if any leeway in the twelve months rule would be available?


That was the primary topic under discussion. The answer I got was no leeway at all. The immigration office said they didn't stop accepting the notary letters 4 consulates that stopped issuing them. And that is true because if your consulate still issues the letter you can use it like normal.

----------


## toddaniels

> Although we are yet to see anything official from the Thai it is useful to know from the horse's mouth, so to speak, the combination route is still available.


You aren't going to see anything from the thai officials about the combination method just like you didn't see anything in these changes about the banked money method. The order put out ONLY addressed people whose consulates stopped issuing the affidavit of income from abroad notary letters in case they wanted to use monthly income to show proof of funds.

IF a method wasn't changed OR affected by the order, it was not mentioned. The combination method is still a viable choice and if you get the income letter from your notarly you use it on the combo method to show 800K baht over the year. BUT if your consulate no longer issues the income affidavit you need to show 12 months of deposits (and in case they are not exactly the same amount every month they take the lowest month and use it for the monthly amount over 12 months) <- meaning if you had 50K transferred in for 11 months BUT one month you only brought in 40K, they would use 40K times 12 for the monthly amount and you'd need to bank the rest that would total 800K for the seasoning period    

OR that is how the process was explained to me ...

----------


## toddaniels

It appears that the immigration office was actually preacting to an issue rather than them pulling a knee jerk reaction.

They posted that now for this first year transition the officers will grant leniency. <- Now it's anyone's guess what that really means BUT at least they are aware that people who were using the affidavit of income from abroad might not have a full 12 months of international transfers to get their yearly extension seeing as those 4 consulates just stopped issuing the notary statements.

----------


## toddaniels

Oh, and here's the thai version of the memo in case you want to show your immigration officer..

----------


## Maanaam

"Then record the evidence that the officer has informed the applicant".
I can easily imagine that for the more officious officers this will involve signed affidavits in triplicate, photos, and corroborating witness statements. Seems redundant, though. Come 2020 and the applicant hasn't got his 12 months bank records, it would be his bad, and his bad luck.

One question that arises; the memo states specifically "monthly transfers". To the letter of the ruling, this precludes transfers of twice as much every two months or other longer equivalents (to save on fees, perhaps, or because that his how the applicant's income is structured.)


Great stuff Todd.

----------


## OhOh

^^^

Good to see the self induced Statutory Illegality has been noted and TIOs have been officially informed. Presumably the requirement will be from Jan 4th 2019.

Thanks for the two versions.

----------


## jabir

> "Then record the evidence that the officer has informed the applicant".
> I can easily imagine that for the more officious officers this will involve signed affidavits in triplicate, photos, and corroborating witness statements. Seems redundant, though. Come 2020 and the applicant hasn't got his 12 months bank records, it would be his bad, and his bad luck.
> 
> One question that arises; the memo states specifically "monthly transfers". To the letter of the ruling, this precludes transfers of twice as much every two months or other longer equivalents (to save on fees, perhaps, or because that his how the applicant's income is structured.)
> 
> 
> Great stuff Todd.


My transfers and I'm sure others are quarterly, and wouldn't fit the 'word of the law'. 

Dumb, dumber and dumbest on the podium!

----------


## Maanaam

> My transfers and I'm sure others are quarterly, and wouldn't fit the 'word of the law'. 
> 
> Dumb, dumber and dumbest on the podium!


So it is a valid question that could affect people. Good to know. Hopefully someone will bring this point of order up with BJ.
First reaction is to have your quarterly transfers to one account, then once a month make a transfer to your "For immigration purposes" account once a month, thereby showing a once monthly sufficient amount.

----------


## rickschoppers

So does the memo mean someone seeking an extension gets a free ride until 2020? AFTER being informed that person must then comply 100% for further extensions to be granted?

----------


## lom

> So does the memo mean someone seeking an extension gets a free ride until 2020? AFTER being informed that person must then comply 100% for further extensions to be granted?


No it doesn't mean you get a full free ride, just that they are allowed to be lenient if you're missing part of the 12 monthly transfers.

----------


## OhOh

> So does the memo mean someone seeking an extension gets a free ride until 2020?





> they are allowed to be lenient if you're missing part of the 12 monthly transfers.


Having returned from the Laem Gnob TIO this afternoon, I will report my quest for clarification.

My 90 reporting was fine, my application for a re-entry stamp was approved.

My subsequent discussion with a very weary, late afternoon, officer was hardly reassuring. 

Initially I enquired whether or not the combination option was still available. She replied yes. The large poster describing the options for visa extension renewal has disappeard, to be replaced with another. No requirements are listed, except an, "all required documents are to be handed in".

Secondly I asked if the recent TI publication , Jan 4th, would mean that anybody who renewed their extension after last July would only need to show a foreign income monthly receipt, into their Thai bank account from Jan 2019 would be acceptable. 

Her actions at this point became firstly looking around in amazement, secondly asking the other TIOs if they knew. No replies were forthcoming. She then rummaged around and found a sheaf of papers. One sheet, in Thai, she showed me and pointed to, the 12 months foreign  income requirement. She also showed me a partial English Translation containing the same 12 months worth requirement.

I then showed her the two documents TD posted today (TD #147 (Amendments to Police Order 138/2257 (using monthly income))). The Thai one she dismissed, the English one I doubted she understood. After explaining the English translation implied that all those who received an extension between July 2018 and Jan 2019 would not have known of the revised regulations and thus would possibly not meet the "previous 12 months" requirement. Which TD here assumes would allow an applicant to be "granted leniency", requiring only foreign income receipts from Jan 2019.

Now, today, this is only one "end of a hard days" work TIO's opinion, which may or may not change. Unfortunately as she knew where to find the original TI paperwork and flourished it with glee, one should not believe her opinion will change. With her dismissal of the most recent TI order I thanked her and left. There is still 5 months for clarification reach the general TI officer, in the general TI office, in Thailand.   :Smile: 

Plan accordingly.

----------


## bowie

Post #119

From the MFA 


> solely at the discretion of the Immigration officer.


So, any guess' on just whose interpretation of the police orders they're gonna enforce?

----------


## bowie

The silver lining – 

When I did my expatriation retirement due diligence a few years ago I had a few options; non-o procurement: USA or Thailand?, marriage or retirement extensions?, monthly or lump sum qualification? Selected: USA, Retirement, Lump Sum.

So, THB 800k in a Thai bank account that I really cannot use as I must replenish it, why bother using it. So considered “off-limits”. 

Now, the silver lining. Change in requirements lets me get my “Letter” from the Bangkok Bank for the monthly income option. Embassy trip for income affidavit is NOT required, saves a full day commute and USD $50 fee. 

I get a letter from the Bangkok Bank for THB 100 and one hours time for the THB 800k Lump Sum Deposit that is “Off-Limits”. Now the Bank Letter can also be used for the monthly deposit. Before this amendment it had to be an Embassy Letter. 

So, I changed my monthly deposits (@ THB 90k/mo.) from our joint account to my solo account and implemented an automatic transfer from the solo account to the joint account. This way the wife still has access to the funds but, I now have a documented @ THB 90k/mo. transfer from a foreign account to my solo Bangkok Bank account. Started that this month Jan19. So, basically after a year I’ll be able to “qualify” my extension with the monthly deposit freeing up the “off-limits” THB 800k Lump Sum deposit. In 2020 that THB 800k will be my “Medical Emergency Fund”.

Works for me.

----------


## Maanaam

Bowie, if you've got 800k sitting there, why would you need to show evidence of any monthly income? You've already satisfied the financial requirement.

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## ootai

> Bowie, if you've got 800k sitting there, why would you need to show evidence of any monthly income? You've already satisfied the financial requirement.


Maanaam
I will answer for bowie and then he can correct me if I am wrong.
He is going to go the monthly transfer route now because he can and that will free up his 800K to do with as he pleases and saves him having to go to the US Embassy.
I thought it was quite obvious what and why he is doing it.

Just one comment though and that is, for people with enough money there are multiple solutions for those that struggle for money there are difficult times ahead.

----------


## Maanaam

> Maanaam
> I will answer for bowie and then he can correct me if I am wrong.
> He is going to go the monthly transfer route now because he can and that will free up his 800K to do with as he pleases and saves him having to go to the US Embassy.
> I thought it was quite obvious what and why he is doing it.


Gotcha. 



> for those that struggle for money there are difficult times ahead.


Actually this new monthly rule can help those whose income from home is less than what is required to be shown since they can now ping pong an amount, back and forth from home to Thailand and back again.
Lets say the requirement is 40k but the guy's income from home is 30k. He sends 40k, sends 10k back each month. He just has to have that extra 10k initially.
I wonder what the requirement is exactly: Does the 40k have to be deposited in his bank account monthly and there is no consideration from Immigration as to where it came from, or does it have to show that it all came from overseas? If the former, it makes it even easier for the scenario of a rotating top-up amount because the 30k comes from home into one account, which then transfers 40 to another local account (for Immigration to see) and the 10k is then sent back to the first local account. Almost no fee and done online.

----------


## bowie

> Just one comment though and that is, for people with enough money there are multiple solutions for those that struggle for money there are difficult times ahead.


Yup, right on both accounts - money talks, if you have it, no problems, if you don't "difficulties". The real problem is the con artists that feed off the folks with the difficulties. The roots of corruption run deep, and, corruption happens everywhere, it's not a Thai phenomena, Google bribes and just about any big cities name and you'll get a bunch of hits.  






> I wonder what the requirement is exactly


seems the real "requirement" is to satisfy the IO sitting behind the desk. From the MFA, extensions are granted at the "discretion" of the IO. So, up to the IO to "accept" or "reject" whether you, I, or the other guy, meets his/her interpretation of the financial requirements. 

Haven't seen any thread on any Thai forum about a foreigner challenging an IO's decision - I would like to know if anyone had success challenging or appealing an IO's decision.

----------


## jabir

> Bowie, if you've got 800k sitting there, why would you need to show evidence of any monthly income? You've already satisfied the financial requirement.


I think somebody posted that despite having 800k sit in a bank for the required period, he was questioned on how he manages day to day exes.

----------


## Maanaam

> I think somebody posted that despite having 800k sit in a bank for the required period, he was questioned on how he manages day to day exes.


The rules say it's one OR the other. A lump sum sitting there, or a monthly income. If someone has the lump sum (ostensibly to prove he can cover medical emergencies and not be a burden on the state), then they're allright. Otherwise, prove you have 40/65k as regular income.

----------


## stroller

First, there is the deposit/income combination as well.

Secondly, you'll find out what the requirements are once you apply for the visa extension. It's not unusual for them to inquire what you have lived on if the lumpsum remains untouched.
When you're in that position, good luck with waving your interpretation of the rule book at them.  :Very Happy:

----------


## Luigi

> Does the 40k have to be deposited in his bank account monthly and there is no consideration from Immigration as to where it came from, or does it have to show that it all came from overseas?


It needs to show that they are international transfers to a Thai bank account in your name.



You will need to submit a bank book (or depending on the IO, a print out of the account's transactions, as above) with copies showing monthly International Transfers. 


I'm sure you can work out something dodgy. Perhaps a Cambodian bank account for your wife.

Get your wife to transfer 40k from her Thai account to her Cambodian account, then from her Cambodian account to your Thai Account. If you can open one. Just get and bring your Work-Permit and passport to any bank and it's simple.


Update the bank book, which shows the Int. Transfer to your account. 
Withdraw it. 
Deposit it to your wife's Thai account. 
And do it again every month.


Or simply get a work-permit for one of your jobs, and get a simple annual extension from that.

----------


## stroller

> Actually this new monthly rule can help those whose income from home is less than what is required to be shown since they can now ping pong an amount, back and forth from home to Thailand and back again.


It's not a 'new' rule.



> Lets say the requirement is 40k but the guy's income from home is 30k. He sends 40k, sends 10k back each month. He just has to have that extra 10k initially.


International bank transfer fees + currency exchange losses would easily take 2k/month out of their meagre income. Not a good solution, IMO.

----------


## Maanaam

> International bank transfer fees + currency exchange losses would easily take 2k/month out of their meagre income. Not a good solution, IMO.


I agree, but it _is_ an option for some.

----------


## ootai

Today I had the good fortune to meet a Welshman whom I found to be a very nice chap, he even laughed when I called him an Englishman.
Anyway during the conversation he asked what I knew about these new rules regarding having pension payments i.e. verified by the British Embassy.
I told him all I knew I had learnt from the good folks here at TD so I told him I take no responsibility for the accuracy of anything I tell him.

Anyway my advice to him was to use the 400K (he's here on a marriage visa) method if he had the money. I explained to him about what people have said about there being some leeway (perhaps) on the monthly income route up until January 2020 but thereafter he had to show every month an International transfer the minimum transfer being multiplied by 12 had to meet the annual income criteria.

He told me that he usually gets his bank in the UK to transfer money every couple of months so my advice to him was to just make one transfer 4 months prior to applying for his extension so that he could then show the 400K and didn't need any calculations to be done. I said then in my opinion he could use money from there until the next year when he tops it up again. This solves the issue of monthly transfers which do cost (fees and exchange losses) and provides the explanation of what he lives on during the year.

This in my opinion is what people should do if they are fortunate enough to be able to i.e. have enough to put 400K in the Thai bank for 4 months and not touch it.

Please tell me if any of my assumptions are incorrect as I will then pass it onto him at a later date.

Cheers

----------


## bowie

> I told him all I knew I had learnt from the good folks here at TD so I told him I take no responsibility for the accuracy of anything I tell him.


 Yup - gotta say that.

But, in a nutshell, everyone and everyone's situation is "different". He has to do his own "due diligence" and select whatever is appropriate for his situation. Everything is subject to interpretation - and it is all: "at the discretion of the IO". The IO can be lenient, strict, nice, pissed off, generous, an angel or a devil, and it changes from day to day and in some situations hour to hour. 

He's like the rest of us, "at their mercy". I prepare to the best of my ability for all possible scenarios, and, as you know from surfing the sites - lots and lots of scenario's.    

For me - I went the THB 800k retirement route to avoid the marriage "under consideration" investigation rigmarole. This year I am starting the monthly deposit route. End of this year Dec19 I "should" be extension financially qualified two ways, monthly deposits and lump sum. But, it only takes one "hiccup" to disqualify the monthly deposit route, being a few baht short due to  exchange rate, missing a "months" deposit by a day, an erroneous bank deposit code ID, and, any one of a number of other glitches that can occur.





> Please tell me if any of my assumptions are incorrect as I will then pass it onto him at a later date.


I do not see anything wrong with your "assumptions". I would advise him to "ask" his Immigration Office exactly what they require (knowing it is subjective and will change with time).

----------


## lom

> It's not unusual for them to inquire what you have lived on if the lump sum remains untouched.


Yes that has happened but there is no requirement that you should live on the lump sum  and  it is really none of their business what you have lived on.
If they persist then show them your credit card  Job jobbed!

----------


## Luigi

> Yes that has happened but there is no requirement that you should live on the lump sum and it is really none of their business what you have lived on.


Kinda is. They are working for a branch of the RTP.

Many foreign criminals work with children illegally without work-permits/licences/police clearance certs etc, some are pedophiles, some are just well dodgy. If they are processing a foreigner's permission to stay and they don't show any means of income, it's good police work to ask and look into it. 

It may seem obtrusive, but it's just good police work aimed at protecting the public from such criminals/possible pedophiles.

----------


## stroller

^ Those crims typically don't bother with a proper visa, but are doing perpetual border runs and exploit loopholes in the system.

----------


## Luigi

^ Yeah, it's why the South have pain in the butt borders and restrictions. Rotating land/air border runs to continue on with their crimes.  


But it's also understandable why the IO (working for a branch of the RTP) will typically ask if there are no signs of income or expenditure while processing the permission to stay. Simple police work, really.

----------


## lom

> If they are processing a foreigner's permission to stay and they don't show any means of income, it's good police work to ask and look into it.


*Having* the required funds to be able to support yourself is what the immigration law requires. 
Do you also think they should check that a retiree uses all of his  65K baht every month?

----------


## bowie

> It may seem obtrusive, but it's just good police work aimed at protecting the public from such criminals/possible pedophiles.


logic




> But it's also understandable why the IO (working for a branch of the RTP) will typically ask if there are no signs of income or expenditure while processing the permission to stay. Simple police work, really.


'tis their job


The point is "you" a foreigner, is/are requesting permission to stay/live in THEIR country. For all the "rubbish" we promote about the massively large sums of money we supposedly spend in THEIR country, and, the open arms they, and any other third world country should be welcoming us with, Well, as I said "rubbish". They don't care how much money we spend in their country, although they do care about what we spend it on. Yes, they do have the right, and the responsibility, to verify we are legitimate A to Z. It Is Their Country and It Is Their Job - don't like their operations, well, there's the door.

Remember you being granted "permission" to stay is at the IO's "discretion". Yup, entirely up to him or her. Sucks, maybe, but thats just the way it is.

----------


## ootai

> Yup - gotta say that.
> 
> I do not see anything wrong with your "assumptions". I would advise him to "ask" his Immigration Office exactly what they require (knowing it is subjective and will change with time).



bowie
I did exactly that and in my discussion with him said that while in the Immigration office yesterday morning I had overheard one of them talking to someone about this exact issue.
I told him which guy he should try and speak to as he goes to the same office as I do.  I sort of got the impression he was well enough off that he could easily go either way same as you but I did say if he wants to go the monthly deposit route he needs to start ASAP as his anniversary is May each year.

Cheers

----------


## Luigi

> *Having* the required funds to be able to support yourself is what the immigration law requires. 
> Do you also think they should check that a retiree uses all of his  65K baht every month?


Having a certified overseas income is pretty indicative that they aren't likely to be working illegally. If the money is never withdrawn, and builds up, I think it's fair for the IO to ask about what money they are living on here, it would be suspicious and hint at possible illegal employment. A crime punishable by prison and deportation.  :Bigeyes:

----------


## misskit

^You think if I hold the required money in the bank, my finances should be checked? In addition, I would be receiving money every month from the US (though planning on a bit less than 65,000). I should be suspect because I don’t receive and spend 65,000 baht a month? Why on earth should I bring so much money here?

----------


## Luigi

Sure.

Can't be too careful when it comes to female retirees. 


Could be well dodgy like.

----------


## misskit

^ Yeah. Exactly.

----------


## Maanaam

> Many foreign criminals work with children illegally without work-permits/licences/police clearance certs etc, some are pedophiles, s


You're probably right that there are some like that. There are also those pedos that don't work because they have independant income. They're a real worry. Use their money to lure the unsuspecting into their tiny-handed dirty grasp.
Disgusting bastards.

----------


## cisco999

> Ok, here's a question. I have transferred funds from my US bank to my wife's Bank of Bangkok account for the past 13 years. What are the chances of the Thai government accepting these funds as a monthly income? Zero to none?



Looks like SOL.

----------


## Luigi

> Looks like SOL.


https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/SOL

I'll go with 'somewhat out of luck' or 'samurai of legend'.  :Smile: 


Edit:

^^ You still haven't said thanks for helping you with a way out of those damned dodgy border-runs you hate so much. Sheesh. Some blokes... Awfully ungrateful.  :Smile:

----------


## tomcat

> Use their money to lure the unsuspecting into their tiny-handed dirty grasp.


...leave tRump out of this...

----------


## Maanaam

> You still haven't said thanks for helping you with a way out of those damned dodgy border-runs you hate so much.


No thanks deserved. Nothing dodgy about my border runs and you have not helped at all.
Damned tedious you are.

----------


## Maanaam

> ...leave tRump out of this...


What about Trumplike dirty scoundrels?

----------


## Luigi

> you have not helped at all.


Certainly have.  :Yup: 

Great, correct, helpful information as always.  :tumbs: 


Just think of finally, _finally_ being done of those damned air-land-air-land border runs once and for all!!  :Bigeyes:  Wouldn't it be like a dream. 




Welcome bud.

----------


## Maanaam

> Certainly have. 
> 
> Great, correct, helpful information as always.


No Lu, not at all, and your incomplete knowledge only makes things confusing for newbies.

----------


## Luigi

Ear ya go buddy. 




> Originally Posted by Maanaam
> 
> 
> Does the 40k have to be deposited in his bank account monthly and there is no consideration from Immigration as to where it came from, or does it have to show that it all came from overseas?
> 
> 
> It needs to show that they are international transfers to a Thai bank account in your name.
> 
> 
> ...


Correct.

Helpful.


Me 2 middle names.  :Smile: 


Welcomez.

----------


## stroller

> I should be suspect because I don’t receive and spend 65,000 baht a month?


Nobody suggested such.

----------


## stroller

> Having a certified overseas income is pretty indicative that they aren't likely to be working illegally. If the money is never withdrawn, and builds up, I think it's fair for the IO to ask about what money they are living on here, it would be suspicious and hint at possible illegal employment. A crime punishable by prison and deportation.


^^Where does he suggest anybody who doesn't spend 65k+ per month is suspect?  :Dunno:

----------


## OhOh

> Having a certified overseas income is pretty indicative that they aren't likely to be working illegally.


Unfortunately as you have already suggested, round tripping, of the same " certified overseas income", is there for all.

----------


## Luigi

> Unfortunately as you have already suggested, round tripping, of the same " certified overseas income", is there for all.


It does look like a possible avenue for those that don't actually have an overseas income, to present documents that looks like they do.


Might take a year or so for Immigration to realize it and make amendments. Once the immigration offices are suddenly full of Mannies with their years of visa-runs suddenly showing bank books with monthly 40k deposits from a Cambodian bank account.  :Smile:

----------


## jabir

> ^You think if I hold the required money in the bank, my finances should be checked? In addition, I would be receiving money every month from the US (though planning on a bit less than 65,000). I should be suspect because I don’t receive and spend 65,000 baht a month? Why on earth should I bring so much money here?


Makes sense that if your income is more than 65k/m allowing you to tie up 800k in a bank account and still cover exes, you are comfortably within immigration requirement. Problem is, it makes more sense than questioning you for having more than enough to meet their needs and yours.

----------


## OhOh

> to present documents that looks like they do


Them's the rules laddie. Until another amendment, to the amendment .......... is published .

 :Smile:

----------


## Luigi

> Them's the rules


Absolutely.

It's handy knowing all the ins and outs, passing on and helping other members with their immigration issues.

----------


## Maanaam

Wooooosh.

----------


## OhOh

> for those that don't actually have an overseas income


It could be viewed as reducing ones exposure to unforeseen/unmanageable financial risk.

----------


## toddaniels

IF you are using the "monthly income method" to meet the proof of financial requirements for extensions that allow it (marriage, raising half-thai kids or being over 50) the money MUST be transferred in from overseas, and it MUST be at least the minimum amount required for that extension (40K baht per month marriage/kidz & 65K baht a month over 50), AND it must be deposited in the account EVERY month. <- Meaning you can't dump 130K in one month and skip a month..

The newest police amendment stated they will offer "leniency" for people whose consulates stopped issuing the affidavit of income from abroad this first year BUT no one knows what the term "leniency" actually means. 

I did talk to the head of section L out at Chaengwattana (retirement, raising kidz, marriage) and she said that IF you presented a bank book showing incoming overseas transfers AND out going overseas transfers to the same account she would not accept it AT ALL. <- meaning If you're going to transfer money in from overseas and then send it back you need TWO bank accounts do to that with. One that shows the incoming transfers that you use for your proof of funds for your extension and another one in which you deposit the money and then send it back to where ever it is you're getting it. 
So the cunning plan of "recycling" the money will work, but only if YOU work at it.

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## OhOh

^Your English amendment dated 26/12/119 does appear to allow some "leniency" by the TIO. 

The second point indicates the TIO may be able to "show leniency", this year only. This applying to a group of foreigners who received an extensions to remain, for the affected period, July 2019 to December 2019. The group of foreigners who were not informed of the new requirement until 26th Dec 2018. 

That group should be informed when applying for an extensions to remain from July 2019 to December 2019, that a full 12 months of incoming transfers must be shown for the next year and that the applicant's file be noted of the requirement being informed.

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## Seekingasylum

Truly stupid arrangement. Like I said, how many retirees spend 65000 every month if they own their property, don't frequent bars or whores and take their pleasures quietly. Really, most pensioners in Britain wouldn't spend that much every month, month in and month out. This place is truly fucking itself up. And demanding that the transfer is slavishly restricted to a monthly transfer from abroad?? WTF? Who wants to do that and incur a flat fee of nigh on 1200baht every time? Fucking stupid.

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## NamPikToot

> don't frequent bars or whores and take their pleasures quietly. 
> incur a flat fee of nigh on 1200baht every time? Fucking stupid.


Mmm dodgy shifter confirmation - gag and kidnaps .....

You need to find a better method of transfer that is double what you could pay.

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## buriramboy

> Truly stupid arrangement. Like I said, how many retirees spend 65000 every month if they own their property, don't frequent bars or whores and take their pleasures quietly. Really, most pensioners in Britain wouldn't spend that much every month, month in and month out. This place is truly fucking itself up. And demanding that the transfer is slavishly restricted to a monthly transfer from abroad?? WTF? Who wants to do that and incur a flat fee of nigh on 1200baht every time? Fucking stupid.


Thought you were married to your wingMAN surely you have 400k baht you can leave in the bank.

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## Seekingasylum

I arrange my financial affairs online with my British bank and fees are payable at both ends, in Blighty and here. The flat fee totals 1200 baht. I daresay there are other cheaper methods involving Western Union or some such outfit but this is not convenient for me and appears to be mostly aimed at coons and migrant workers or bottom feeders such as you.

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## tomcat

> appears to be mostly aimed at coons


...coons?...Are you referring to Negroes?...

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## buriramboy

> ...coons?...Are you referring to Negroes?...


Well he's not referring to raccoons if that helps.

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## Seekingasylum

> Thought you were married to your wingMAN surely you have 400k baht you can leave in the bank.


When I debate these matters on this thread, you knuckle-dragging throwback, it is in general terms. The wingman joined the squadron some 13 years ago but the current posting here in LoS is as a chap on the reserve list and no longer on active service.

As I have said before, my sympathies are with the johnnies who fly solo and are on basic rations which were sufficient for keeping themselves fit for duty under the old regime but who will now get pranged by these new orders.

The exchange rate was bad enough but this new wrinkle means for some a ticket back to Blighty or forced to sell up capitalising their asset so they can lodge the 800k.

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## tomcat

...coons?...

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## buriramboy

> ...coons?...


FFS, he's too polite to use nigger.

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## tomcat

> he's too polite


...quite an accusation...still, haven't heard that term in decades outside of Mississippi...I assumed most post-war racists had died off...

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## NamPikToot

> ......I assumed most post-war racists had died off...


Oh Tom, don't be polite and confine your description to one of his traits......

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## Maanaam

> ...quite an accusation...still, haven't heard that term in decades outside of Mississippi...I assumed most post-war racists had died off...


Oh, so you didn't read the same term applied to my Dad earlier today?

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## tomcat

> so you didn't read the same term applied to my Dad earlier today?


...no: I haven't read today's Police Gazette...

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## stroller

_"Thai visas and visa runs"_

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## Norton

> haven't heard that term in decades outside of Mississippi


Coons. Strange fruit.

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## Maanaam

> ...no: I haven't read today's Police Gazette...


Do you think that's funny? Immature people might, like Lu or Buriramboy, but I thought (emphasis on the past tense) you were a bit more enlightened.

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## buriramboy

> Do you think that's funny? Immature people might, like Lu or Buriramboy, but I thought (emphasis on the past tense) you were a bit more enlightened.


I bet you're a laugh a minute over a beer.

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## NamPikToot

Manny, just tweaking your key because every thread you post on becomes about you and your perceived slights, which really are just wind ups you can't either ignore or play along with.....

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## stroller

^^Because he likes to spend money on his lunch?

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## Maanaam

> which really are just wind ups you can't either ignore or play along with.....


More fool you. Lu's slights are more than wind ups. Don't you see he's severely butthurt at my responses to him? He is actually out to try to hurt, insecure little man that he is. Why should I ignore genuine attempts to belittle me or denigrate my wife? Why should I play along with childishness?
You do yourself no service by advocating for a narcissistic jerk.
And please learn how to punctuate properly to makes sentences that make sense.

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## Maanaam

> I bet you're a laugh a minute over a beer.


So you think someone's father being called a coon, and that the only way someone else would know about that is in the police gazette is funny.
You're nearly as big a jerk as Lu.

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## buriramboy

> So you think someone's father being called a coon, and that the only way someone else would know about that is in the police gazette is funny.
> You're nearly as big a jerk as Lu.


No I just think you are a pathetic drama queen as do many others so it seems.

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## NamPikToot

> You do yourself no service by advocating for a narcissistic jerk.
> And please learn how to punctuate properly to makes sentences that make sense.


Gawd.

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## HuangLao

The wiser of us [there's a few] play a different game than the usual bureaucratic standard infusion. 

There is an option or two that most won't seek......outta inconvenience. 

But it works, nonetheless.

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## OhOh

> others so it seems.



You are one of this clique? It must make you feel so exceptional.

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## tomcat

> but I thought (emphasis on the past tense) you were a bit more enlightened.


...if you feed me the straight lines, I have no choice...it's in my nature not to take myself too seriously...*hint*...I'll return the red when I'm done with it...

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## Norton

> There is an option or two that most won't seek......outta inconvenience


Depends on individual but yes several options to embassies which no longer issue income letter. In my case, aside from the bank letter and or 800k, border runs to Savannakhét or work permit from friends would be another two.

Letter from bank is my preferrence atm. Really not a big deal.

Will also schedule a meeting with embassy to discuss ways they can start reissuing income letters.

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## stroller

> Don't you see he's severely butthurt at my responses to him?


 :smiley laughing:  ...I don't think so.





> There is an option or two that most won't seek......outta inconvenience.


Perspectives may vary.  :Smile:

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