#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Farming & Gardening In Thailand >  >  income from rubber trees

## nigelandjan

Can anyone please give me a rough idea about the income per month // per rai we should achieve from growing rubber trees.??

        Also does anyone know the rough price of bare land in North issan to buy for growing them on ? I think about 190000 per rai ?

                 Thanks for any info as to how much to buy for the old retirement supplements

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## artist

Atfer 5 year maturity of the trees you should expect around bhat 2,000 per rai per month. Land price without tree around 60,000 bhat per rai

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## Peter Jordan

As a follow up question (unauthorized, but on behalf of "nigelandjan"...)

How do rubber trees do in the Northeast? 

It's a lot drier than the South.  You don't see a whole lot of rubber plantations in Isaan; didn't know if that was just tradition/culture or if there were sound agricultural reasons not to push a lot of rubber in the Northeast.

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## the dogcatcher

Thai gov figures suggest 271 kg per rai per year.
Today, Sunday rubber is 45 baht a kilo, or about a quid.
So 271 quid a year.
Trees are mature at 7 years and will produce rubber for 20 years.
He's the nice bit.
Say you have 100 rai, 72 trees per rai, that 7200 tree.
Each one in 25 years time will probably be worth 30 quid in timbre.
Nice little back end earner.
PJ is correct, yeilds are better in the south.
In Malaysia for instance they are nearly double
Also there are hybrid variaties of trees.
Most the boys round here grow RM 600, it's the most common.
The best type I think is RM6610 which again has nearly double the yeild of RM 600.
AND, if you employ people to cut the rubber they will be expecting about a 50 50 cut on the money, more in their favour if the trees are old or on a hill.
To continue, there will also be expenses like fertilizer. Don't think it's much though.
Don,t get muppets to cut the trees, an inexperience worker will mess them up and can half a trees yeild.

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## El Gibbon

^  AGREE!  tough road especially in Isaan I would think. Not as much water as the Southern Kra peninsular Thailand and in the Chantaburi region.

This subject was discussed extensively a couple of years ago here on TD.  Do a search and I'm sure you'll find the data useable.

E. G.

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## wefearourdespot

About making money with rubber....
I bought 10,000 Sri Trang (STA) shares during the crisis at 9 baht ... sold them at 14 during the King's death rumors ... now they quote over 60.
I had also bought 10,000 Thai Rubber (TRUBB) at 26 one year before the crash.
Saw them falling to 9 and sold when bounced to 28 . They too quote over 60 now.
 :Sad2:

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## the dogcatcher

Yep, wefearourpussspot.
Rubber went down to 5 baht a kg at one time last year.
About the time we were paying 18 baht a litre for diesel.
I had to pay to feed the family.
45 today, well this morning at Muaray Rubber in Rayong.

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## grasshopper

Rubber always bounces back! Right? :mid:

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## nigelandjan

Cheers for all replies everyone , most informative ,,,,,, some good news about the land price , although the missus informs me she was talking about 10 rai  price so were looking at about 20000 per rai here , its not main road land  but is accessed by various tracks 

            Oh also anyone reading this , the rest of the family are growing many many rai of trees in Issan , I know my brother and sister in law have enough trees to give an income of around £1000  per month , so yes the trees do grow ok here ,, mabe better in the south but its ok.
            My other brother in law is a partner in a rubber tree nursery so we will be getting the saplings at a good price .
             Again thanks for the info

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## the dogcatcher

600 saplings are about 12 baht here.
That may well be farang price.
10 rai 720 trees.
So hardly big potatoes.

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## El Gibbon

Panama Hat at one point was involved with system that increases each tree's production significantly. He tried to explain it to me over coffee one day but it was over my head I guess.   :Smile: 

As I recall it was a patch of some type that you attached to the tree. Payback was very short on producing rubber stands.

At the time it seemed a no brainer to me, but I wasn't directly involved in rubber (the family was) and you know how hard it is to change anything here.

Maybe send him a pm and check it out.??

E. G.

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## nigelandjan

Sorry Dogcatcher you missunderstood me ,,,,,, I was refering to the price in my original post about 190K for 10 rai      ,,,,,, I think in total she,e looking at 40 rai , so that will be a nice little supplement for us ,,,,,,were happy being comfortable in our lives ,,,,,,not interested in having the latest car or the biggest driveway

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## the dogcatcher

Nigel, a question.
If you have all this rubber know how in the family why are you asking us about it?
I know sometimes it is difficult to get to the bottom of shit in this country but with enough land and rubber in the family to create 12k a year then surely there are better places to ask.
Just a thought.

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## the dogcatcher

Ok, we are about to rent 47 rai, I recon 10k a year turnover.
Cost of rental, 50,000 baht for 1 year.
Maybe that is a better solution?
will see a profit of about 4K.

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## jamescollister

Hi all
      Just a few words of warning to potential rubber planters. It will cost much more than you think. A ball park figure think about $2000 US per rai before you start to get a return. There is alot more to setting up a profitable plantation than just sticking some trees in the ground. 
      This is my 7/8th year and we will make our first profit, but it was a long frustrating and expensive journey to get here.
      As I have  posted before I have placed some videos on youtube on the subject. Just type jamescollister in the seach. Jim

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## oldest swinger

There are a lot of farmers growing rubber in Isan, and the government is pushing for more to grow it. Presumably there must be some validity for growing it here

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## the dogcatcher

> Hi all
> Just a few words of warning to potential rubber planters. It will cost much more than you think. A ball park figure think about $2000 US per rai before you start to get a return. There is alot more to setting up a profitable plantation than just sticking some trees in the ground. 
> This is my 7/8th year and we will make our first profit, but it was a long frustrating and expensive journey to get here.
> As I have posted before I have placed some videos on youtube on the subject. Just type jamescollister in the seach. Jim


Like to see a breakdown of your 2000 a rai over 6 years.

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## good2bhappy

Great thread thanks

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## the dogcatcher

Say 50 rai.
50 rai x 250 dollar a year return per rai. Equals 12,500 dollar a year return.
You pay 6000 dollars in wages per year.
Total prof after other exes maybe 6000 dollar a year.
Setup 2000 x 50 rai is 100,000 dollar.
start turning a profit at 17 years in.
Wife doing the books?

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## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> Hi all
> Just a few words of warning to potential rubber planters. It will cost much more than you think. A ball park figure think about $2000 US per rai before you start to get a return. There is alot more to setting up a profitable plantation than just sticking some trees in the ground. 
> This is my 7/8th year and we will make our first profit, but it was a long frustrating and expensive journey to get here.
> As I have posted before I have placed some videos on youtube on the subject. Just type jamescollister in the seach. Jim
> 
> 
> Like to see a breakdown of your 2000 a rai over 6 years.


    In hindsight I should have keep a spread sheet on costs, but it never occured to me at the time. 
    Just some of the costs that most fail to take into account. Fertiliser 100 rai 80 bags twice a year. About 1000 baht per bag. 160,000 baht per year. People to spread it, cut the grass around the trees etc. workers to plant thousands of trees. Plus vehicles to transport all of the above. The plantations need to be ploughed twice a year for the first 2/3 years. so cost of a tractor or rental. Workers to cut the branches as they grow. Water pumps and tanks to water the young trees during the dry season. I could go on,but the list is long and nothing is free. Jim

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## the dogcatcher

Don't do none of that round here.
Also don't buy the fertilizer, my lot grow it.
Grow pineapples around the young trees, and occationally bananas.
Where are you?
I am in a commercial rubber growing area, I see none of this.

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## jamescollister

> Don't do none of that round here.
> Also don't buy the fertilizer, my lot grow it.
> Grow pineapples around the young trees, and occationally bananas.
> Where are you?
> I am in a commercial rubber growing area, I see none of this.


   I am near Buntharik, about 130 km southeast of Ubon and yes many Thais do it on the cheap. Thats why they get low rubber out put and lots of dead trees. If you are going to make money from rubber you need to do the hard yards first otherwise you end up with small under producing trees. I have seen locals lose 90% of there young trees. Thats no way to run a business. Jim

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## the dogcatcher

Agreed, I'm actually talking about the likes of Muaray Rubber and Thai tex.
Monster producers.
But seriously other than the fert they pretty much let the trees get on with it, even the saplings.
Weeding is taken care of by filling the space with other stuff.
Bananas cos they create shade and pineapples, not sure why.
My Thai lot won't get involved in virgin land, they rent only land witnh trees 10 years old or more, but never more than 20.
You are using a mineral fert? Probably a Gramafix thing.
My lot grow a plant that they mulch and use instead, although they do supplement it with a bought product.
Yeilds here are about 250 a rai, which is a bit lower than it should be in Issan I would expect a little less.
Never seen any watering going on, at all. Maybe it's the lye of the land here but the place is in a valley and holds moisture well.
What are your yeilds?
100,000 dollar is alot of money for the return you will get.

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## the dogcatcher

Sorry, not 100k. 200k if you have 100 rai.

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## jamescollister

> Agreed, I'm actually talking about the likes of Muaray Rubber and Thai tex.
> Monster producers.
> But seriously other than the fert they pretty much let the trees get on with it, even the saplings.
> Weeding is taken care of by filling the space with other stuff.
> Bananas cos they create shade and pineapples, not sure why.
> My Thai lot won't get involved in virgin land, they rent only land witnh trees 10 years old or more, but never more than 20.
> You are using a mineral fert? Probably a Gramafix thing.
> My lot grow a plant that they mulch and use instead, although they do supplement it with a bought product.
> Yeilds here are about 250 a rai, which is a bit lower than it should be in Issan I would expect a little less.
> ...


     Yes it is a lot of money, but when I decided to have a go at rubber I knew it was all or nothing. I still don't know if it will be a real winner or not. Started tapping the first 1000 trees last year and didn't make a cent. The trees take time to learn to produce latex and out put will continue to rise as the years go by. We opened another 1000 trees this year which are not producing much usable latex yet. Saying that yesterdays tap was 60 kilos and should be over 100 kilos by the end of the year. So I will not have an exact output picture untill about year 10 or 11.
      You are right about lower rain fall in Issan, but rain fall is higher where we are and this is where most of Issans rubber is gowing, along the Cambodia Lao border and along the Mekong. 
      The watering thing is only for young trees, we have a long hot dry season and the small trees root systems can not reach down to the wet ground for the first few years. After that they are fine.
       Have to say I am still learning how to do things and could have save lots of money ealier on if I knew then what I know now, Jim

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## the dogcatcher

You won't starve on 100 rai, but your investment does look quite big.
Still have 7200 trees to sell when they are done with, if you're still alive.
At present we have 70 rai in Laos just across the river and probably I think by next week about the same in Thailand.
We are going to try 6610 in Laos but only cos the land is low and water is plentifull.
BTW, oil will be going up in sept as usual cos it gets cold in Europe.
Recon we could see 58 a kilo by Novermber.

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## jamescollister

> You won't starve on 100 rai, but your investment does look quite big.
> Still have 7200 trees to sell when they are done with, if you're still alive.
> At present we have 70 rai in Laos just across the river and probably I think by next week about the same in Thailand.
> We are going to try 6610 in Laos but only cos the land is low and water is plentifull.
> BTW, oil will be going up in sept as usual cos it gets cold in Europe.
> Recon we could see 58 a kilo by Novermber.


   Dogcatcher, hope I am getting a lot more than 58 baht. We make RSS over 100 baht a kilo. We buy liquid latex off others for 75 to 80 baht. Maybe you could ship it to my factory. jim { have a look at the video may give you some ideas]

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## dirtydog



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## nigelandjan

> Nigel, a question.
> If you have all this rubber know how in the family why are you asking us about it?
> I know sometimes it is difficult to get to the bottom of shit in this country but with enough land and rubber in the family to create 12k a year then surely there are better places to ask.
> Just a thought.


Dogcatcher  I would rather ask people such as you on here because I trust your impartial views rather than figures ( mabe ) being bullshitted up also as I am quite sure you are aware of the Thai / western  ,,,,lost in translation ,,,,, anyway seems to be creating some interest and info for other members , 
   Again thanks all for the info

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## the dogcatcher

Interesting, Muaray pay 45 for raw latex, straight out the tree.

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## the dogcatcher

OK, RSS will be more but additional expense, wages, equipment and transport.

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## jamescollister

> OK, RSS will be more but additional expense, wages, equipment and transport.


        Everything costs. you just have to work the numbers. I don't pay the workers for making the sheets, it's all part of the tappers job to take the latex to the factory and process the rubber. They get more money that way as there share per kilo is more.
         Have to say the factory is another expensive gamble, as we built a place that can process much more rubber than I will ever produce. So far it only brakes even. This is more my fault due to the fact I have had to keep flyiny back to Oz to make money and as soon as I leave the factory grinds to a stop. Hopefully now that I am going to give it all my time  things should pick up. Jim

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## the dogcatcher

Good luck.
You definately don't have enough land to warrent a factory.
Maybe go large on buying in raw.

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## JaiYinYin

Hi 
James can i ask what you mean when you say the land where your trees are growing needs ploughing twice a year ?
Also is 72 trees per rai the norm because i have just had some of the family plant some rubber for us and im pretty sure they have put more than that down ?
Cheers.

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## the dogcatcher

72 gov recommended, I've seen alot more.
Depends on water.

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## jamescollister

> Hi 
> James can i ask what you mean when you say the land where your trees are growing needs ploughing twice a year ?
> Also is 72 trees per rai the norm because i have just had some of the family plant some rubber for us and im pretty sure they have put more than that down ?
> Cheers.


       Hi 
We ploughed for the first 2 years as it opens up the soil to let the rains soak in for the young trees. but more importantly to keep the weeds down. Fire is a big problem around here around here and a grass fire can wipe out a lot of trees. Not only did we plough, but poisoned grass. I don't like using grass poison ergo ploughing when possible.
       We planted 80 trees per rai, others go for 90 trees. A choice that may have more to do with the area. I went with 80 figuring that a larger canopy space would mean more rubber per tree. I may be wrong will just have to see. So far it would seem my trees are producing twice the amount of rubber compared to the locals trees of the same age. Again that may change overtime, my trees may have just had a better start in life. Jim

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## good2bhappy

I've seen many people growing cassava in with the rubber for the first 3 years

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## the dogcatcher

Yeilds per rai Jim?

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## Loy Toy

I was working in Malaysia on a project about 14 years ago and was asked by a professor from a local university to assist him and an Aussie guy on a new process which he claimed could increase the yield from a rubber tree by around 400%.

We went to a plantation and they showed me these trees which had a hand made modified respirator mouthpiece (clear overcover) mounted onto the tree trunk, covering the hole that had been opened to extract the rubber, some adjustable clamps around the trunk to secure the overcover and a silicon seal to create an airtight seal between the clear cover and the tree trunk.

The extraction process was started by pumping a gas, I think it was nitrogen into the cavity between the cover and the sealed tree trunk and this caused a reaction whereby the tree produced far more rubber.

Based upon the test models that they had set up it was clearly evident that the trees that had been set-up with the new technology was producing far more resin and when compared to the normal process of extraction. 

It was my responsiblity to come up with a specially designed cover plate whereby the underside could seal perfectly onto every tree trunk.

After considering the challenge I very soon realised that every tree trunk was different in shape and it would be almost impossible to fashion one in plastic which could fit every tree on a plantation.

Has anyone ever used this method as I never heard from these people again but I can truly say it looked a fantastic idea?

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## the dogcatcher

I've heard of it but never seen or know anyone that used it.

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## jamescollister

> Yeilds per rai Jim?


   As I said the yields go up over time, but will give you a number thursday as we will be selling about 3 weeks worth. Jim

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## the dogcatcher

Look forward to that.

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## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by the dogcatcher
> 
> 
> Yeilds per rai Jim?
> 
> 
> As I said the yields go up over time, but will give you a number thursday as we will be selling about 3 weeks worth. Jim


     Hi dogcatcher
Just give you some approx numbers. Last years 1000 trees averaged 0.5 kilos this month. The new one [ some of which are not producing latex yet put out about 0.20 kilos or there about. All up sold 70,000 Baht of rubber . Jim

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## the dogcatcher

Sorry, I don't understand.
Can you break down to kg per rai per year.
Just found another 50 rai to rent, has a road, water and lecky.
On a bloody hill though.

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## jamescollister

> Sorry, I don't understand.
> Can you break down to kg per rai per year.
> Just found another 50 rai to rent, has a road, water and lecky.
> On a bloody hill though.


   Dog catcher you just multiple 0.50 kilos by trees per Rai, say 80 gives you 40 kilos times the tapping season in your area say 9 months. Not hard. The hard part is getting trees that are good producers. 
    How are you going to rent land for 30 years or are you hoping the Thai you rent off won't get greedy in a few years time and throw you off. >Jim

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## SunTzu

> I was working in Malaysia on a project about 14 years ago and was asked by a professor from a local university to assist him and an Aussie guy on a new process which he claimed could increase the yield from a rubber tree by around 400%.
> 
> We went to a plantation and they showed me these trees which had a hand made modified respirator mouthpiece (clear overcover) mounted onto the tree trunk, covering the hole that had been opened to extract the rubber, some adjustable clamps around the trunk to secure the overcover and a silicon seal to create an airtight seal between the clear cover and the tree trunk.
> 
> The extraction process was started by pumping a gas, I think it was nitrogen into the cavity between the cover and the sealed tree trunk and this caused a reaction whereby the tree produced far more rubber.
> 
> Based upon the test models that they had set up it was clearly evident that the trees that had been set-up with the new technology was producing far more resin and when compared to the normal process of extraction. 
> 
> It was my responsiblity to come up with a specially designed cover plate whereby the underside could seal perfectly onto every tree trunk.
> ...


wouldn't forcing production this way damage/exhaust the tree to a point where it eventually becomes unproductive faster, thus diminishing latex production over long term ? (having to repeat cycle of replanting, tendering and waiting more often)

Don't know, just asking.

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## the dogcatcher

We don't either.
All the land to be rented has trees on it already.
1 year contract.
If he bungs us off it doesn't matter, plenty of land about.
Good figures BTW.

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## jamescollister

> We don't either.
> All the land to be rented has trees on it already.
> 1 year contract.
> If he bungs us off it doesn't matter, plenty of land about.
> Good figures BTW.


Have to say sounds a bit strange, what you are really doing is sub contracting labour,but that is the normal system for thais to hire tappers on a percentage basis. You need to be very good at the numbers if you are paying rent up front then payiny your tappers { who will run off with the rubber if you are not there} Best of luck im

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## jeff2258

Dear Rubber Plantation owners, have you heard of Vitex? It is a scientific formulated vitamin for the rubber trees, to increase yield from 50% - 200% and maintained the DRC at 38% and above. The trees gets healthier and dry bark is prevented. Breakthrough in Rubber trees research. Want to know more, email to: jeffrey.mankf[at]gmail.com. We will be in Thailand soon to market the product and you will be able to meet us soon.

I'm from Malaysia, I've seen this method before. Either using gas or stimulant, the method is to force the latex out from the tree and it is like injecting steroid to it. The tree will be exhausted and the tree will die of dehydration. How to proof this method is harmful to the tree is to check the DRC. After a few months using these method the tree will not produce latex anymore and you will also notice Dry bark appears. You can't have long term profit by forcing the tree to produce higher yield. If the tree is healthy, you can be assured that the trees have longer lifespan and be able to produce higher quality yield.




> Originally Posted by Loy Toy
> 
> 
> I was working in Malaysia on a project about 14 years ago and was asked by a professor from a local university to assist him and an Aussie guy on a new process which he claimed could increase the yield from a rubber tree by around 400%.
> 
> We went to a plantation and they showed me these trees which had a hand made modified respirator mouthpiece (clear overcover) mounted onto the tree trunk, covering the hole that had been opened to extract the rubber, some adjustable clamps around the trunk to secure the overcover and a silicon seal to create an airtight seal between the clear cover and the tree trunk.
> 
> The extraction process was started by pumping a gas, I think it was nitrogen into the cavity between the cover and the sealed tree trunk and this caused a reaction whereby the tree produced far more rubber.
> 
> ...

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## 12Call

Why not just buy direct from the Thai growers with a wad of cash and sell it on as a middleman ? No Trees , No Land , No Chance of the family stealing your investment and you can spend more time online dreaming.

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## the dogcatcher

Ermm....
Small producers already sell it to the big boys direct here.

The big boys now produce their own check bins for the small producer to sign.

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## the dogcatcher

Jeff 2258.
I'm not over involved but I would still like more info.

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## jeff2258

When you want to invest in anything, you need to put in money. In this world there are no free meal. If you want to make better profits, you need to do it profesionally. Do some research first and don't just ask around. A lot of people thought they knows all and start giving advise. You will find out latter that what they advised is just what they think is best for them. Want to know more, ask the research institute for rubber. You will get all the information you need, from planning and profits making. Good luck and God bless.

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## tsicar

> When you want to invest in anything, you need to put in money. In this world there are no free meal. If you want to make better profits, you need to do it profesionally. Do some research first and don't just ask around. A lot of people thought they knows all and start giving advise. You will find out latter that what they advised is just what they think is best for them. Want to know more, ask the research institute for rubber. You will get all the information you need, from planning and profits making. Good luck and God bless.


 
prezacterly!

do your homework extensively, and try to gain an advantage.
include all costs, risks and pitfalls into your calculation of the profit margin.

then halve what you came up with, and you should be just about on target.


....and NEVER, EVER listen to the local "experts" who have done it before or are presently doing it "successfully":
there is no such thing as a thai businessman/farmer who is failing/going bust! (the thai "face" thing doesn't allow for admitting to failure) 




.

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## kiwinev

Interesting thread, good to see some genuine numbers. Have got some trees in Isaan and waiting for them to be able to be tapped. Should be next year with a bit of luck.

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## jamescollister

> Interesting thread, good to see some genuine numbers. Have got some trees in Isaan and waiting for them to be able to be tapped. Should be next year with a bit of luck.


For those who maybe interested today is selling day for us. So later when we have sold I can give you this months take. Jim

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## jamescollister

Selling is all done and not a bad result. The price is down, but 1 month and 4 days of production netted 125000 Baht. After costs, wages etc we will be able to eat for another month. Jim

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## JaiYinYin

^Did you say that was from 1000 trees ?

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## jamescollister

> ^Did you say that was from 1000 trees ?


No about 2300 trees. The1000 number was what we opened this year. Jim

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## the dogcatcher

Jim.
 Can you give us a breakdown on the 125K.
Number of trees costs etc again.

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## jamescollister

> Jim.
> Can you give us a breakdown on the 125K.
> Number of trees costs etc again.


I already have, last month you asked the same question and the anwser is what I wrote last time. Jim

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## the dogcatcher

If I remember rightly that's twice odd what the Thai government state.
Actually let me go back and read again. I think that's alot more.
Hang on.
Would suggest output from 100 and a little bit more rai for a year.

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## jamescollister

> If I remember rightly that's twice odd what the Thai government state.
> Actually let me go back and read again. I think that's alot more.
> Hang on.
> Would suggest output from 100 and a little bit more rai for a year.


Can't really follow what you are asking.
Thai Gov state. I think you are refering to the Gov stats for rubber per rai, Take no notice of that. It is an averge of all land with rubber new/old, dead trees. As I said earlier if you don;t take care of the trees from the start you won't get the return.
Again 100 Rai of good clones that have been cared for or 100 Rai of lumber. There is no anwser. Jim

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## kiwinev

> Selling is all done and not a bad result. The price is down, but 1 month and 4 days of production netted 125000 Baht. After costs, wages etc we will be able to eat for another month. Jim


That's not bad, Jim. More than I was expecting. Look forward to more numbers. ::chitown::

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## cheetah

Hi everyone,

Ive recently been to Rayong and was told by my Thai GF that investing in rubber plantation is a good investment. I found this forum when searching online. THe numbers shes given are a little different than whats being passed around in the threads. Is this really a good investment?

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## the dogcatcher

It's a good investment for her as the land will be in her name.

Seriously it's 50 50.
The prob is that the rubber land in Rayong is expensive.

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## jamescollister

> Hi everyone,
> 
> Ive recently been to Rayong and was told by my Thai GF that investing in rubber plantation is a good investment. I found this forum when searching online. THe numbers shes given are a little different than whats being passed around in the threads. Is this really a good investment?


Hi the answer to your question is probably no, it is not a good investment. There are 2 ways to grow rubber the right way and the Thai way. If you spend the money and are there to make sure the work is done, you will make a good return, but if you leave it to the family etc when time comes to tap you will not get enough rubber from your half to by beer. Jim

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## the dogcatcher

Anyhow.
If you go for it in Rayong drop me a line.
The family have been doing this years.
JC is correct, if you invest big then returns will be better, as a percentage of your initial capital however, dunno.
DO NOT let your family do the work, you won,t see any money back.
Aside that if they have not got the experience they can mess up yout trees.

BTW JC.
The new land is yeilding as much as yours.

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## jamescollister

[quote=the dogcatcher;1555146]Anyhow.
If you go for it in Rayong drop me a line.
The family have been doing this years.
JC is correct, if you invest big then returns will be better, as a percentage of your initial capital however, dunno.
DO NOT let your family do the work, you won,t see any money back.
Aside that if they have not got the experience they can mess up yout trees.

BTW JC.
The new land is yeilding as much as yours.[/quoteGood to hear you are making a return, hope you are getting more than me at the moment. I was thinking of building an Ark if the rains don't stop. Losing about half of our tapping days due to rain. Jim

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## cheetah

Thanks for the heads up

what do you think about these figures:

70 trees per rai

For 30 rai 250kg/day!!?? for 20 days a month = 5,000kg/month for 30 rai


1 kilo raw rubber sells at 100Baht

these sound right?

----------


## the dogcatcher

[quote=jamescollister;1555188]


> Anyhow.
> If you go for it in Rayong drop me a line.
> The family have been doing this years.
> JC is correct, if you invest big then returns will be better, as a percentage of your initial capital however, dunno.
> DO NOT let your family do the work, you won,t see any money back.
> Aside that if they have not got the experience they can mess up yout trees.
> 
> BTW JC.
> The new land is yeilding as much as yours.[/quoteGood to hear you are making a return, hope you are getting more than me at the moment. I was thinking of building an Ark if the rains don't stop. Losing about half of our tapping days due to rain. Jim


I factored the rain in Jim.

Cheetah, these figure you are quoting come from where?

----------


## the dogcatcher

> Thanks for the heads up
> 
> what do you think about these figures:
> 
> 70 trees per rai
> 
> For 30 rai 250kg/day!!?? for 20 days a month = 5,000kg/month for 30 rai
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds like your gfs estimates.

----------


## cheetah

GF figures.  :Smile:

----------


## the dogcatcher

On those figs we would be turning over 200 K pounds sterling a year.
Ermm not.
Known this girl long?

----------


## jamescollister

> Thanks for the heads up
> 
> what do you think about these figures:
> 
> 70 trees per rai
> 
> For 30 rai 250kg/day!!?? for 20 days a month = 5,000kg/month for 30 rai
> 
> 
> ...


  They sound like dream world, think you are confusing liquid latex with solid rubber. RM600 trees will produce 5 kilos a year if they have been taken care of the right way and maybe 2 kilos a year if they have been taken care of the Thai way.Otherwise every small planter would be driving a brand new BMW. Jim

----------


## the dogcatcher

5 Kg sounds right for the new land.
Cheetah, think your GF is talking you into buying land her parents already own.
Seen it dozens of times.

----------


## superman

> Cheetah, think your GF is talking you into buying land her parents already own. Seen it dozens of times.


You're not alone on that score. If not the family then there's a good chance she's making money. Locally when Thai sell land it by word of mouth. To better their chances to sell, the seller will usually offer a 10,000 Baht per Rai reward to the person that introduces the buyer. You get my drift ?

----------


## cheetah

> Originally Posted by cheetah
> 
> 
> Thanks for the heads up
> 
> what do you think about these figures:
> 
> 70 trees per rai
> 
> ...



I think the difference may infact stem from the liquid/solid aspect. Are the figures more realistic if I say 250lt/30rai/day (which implies 0.12lt/tree/day)? 

Whats the selling price of liquid rubber? (for each lt)

BTW JC watched your videos on youtube-- GReat!! are your plantations up in the north? I'm thinking of investing in Rayong as I'll need the GF's help when getting started. I definetely will be there along with the GF and familiy (only uncle and aunt - no mum&dad as they are divorced) and I dont think she owns the land. she's given me a few figures on a couple of different plots which I've found way overpriced and asked her to find a few more. what price /rai is normal for rayong with trees ready to be tapped?

----------


## the dogcatcher

Oh god that question again.
It depends so much on locations, ease of access, topography.... etc etc.

Don't let anyone know you are involved and watch the family like a hawk for scamming and profeteering.

Max return before costs, ie wages etc 500 kg a rai a year.
About, roughly, approximately, sort of, kind of...........

Go to Chantaburi, land is much cheaper there.

----------


## the dogcatcher

If you do come to Rayong, drop me a line, drink beer and things.

----------


## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by cheetah
> ...


Forget all this tree per tap latex volume.If you try to work it out that way you would have to test each tree for rubber content every day. The only real way is how much rubber you get each month/year.
We buy latex at around 80 baht a kilo. Thats not the liquid weight, but the rubber content. There are so many variables that you can not work out your real return until the money is on the table, Jim

----------


## the dogcatcher

You buy raw latex straight out of the tree for 80?

Please clarify again James.

----------


## jamescollister

> You buy raw latex straight out of the tree for 80?
> 
> Please clarify again James.


 Pretty simple really, the man brings the latex to us we test it to find the rubber content say 32 percent. So if he has 100 kilos of latex it contains 32 kilos of rubber and we pay 80 baht for the 32 kilos of rubber. Jim

----------


## the dogcatcher

Ok, not the same here.
There is no testing here, they pay 49 for everything.
We are talking about Muaray and Thai Hua.
They probably buy 30 to 50 metric tons a day of more, so testing is not an opion.

----------


## jamescollister

> Ok, not the same here.
> There is no testing here, they pay 49 for everything.
> We are talking about Muaray and Thai Hua.
> They probably buy 30 to 50 metric tons a day of more, so testing is not an opion.


 Everyone has there own systems, but they must do some sort of test or the tappers would just water down the latex and they would be paying for water. Jim

----------


## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by the dogcatcher
> 
> 
> Ok, not the same here.
> There is no testing here, they pay 49 for everything.
> We are talking about Muaray and Thai Hua.
> They probably buy 30 to 50 metric tons a day of more, so testing is not an opion.
> 
> 
>  Everyone has there own systems, but they must do some sort of test or the tappers would just water down the latex and they would be paying for water. Jim


 Plus it takes about 3 litres of latex to make 1 kilo of rubber. That would mean they are paying 147 baht a kilo. If that were the case I will start trucking my rubber down.

----------


## the dogcatcher

Talking latex.
Raw straight from the tree into the back of my truck and down to Muaray within the hour.
49 a kilo.

----------


## jamescollister

> Talking latex.
> Raw straight from the tree into the back of my truck and down to Muaray within the hour.
> 49 a kilo.


  OK sounds too good to be true, but can you give me there phone number and I will give them a call. At those prices I could ship 10,000 litres  every few days and make a clear profit of over $10,000 US a trip. Jim

----------


## the dogcatcher

I'll get on it Jim.
To clarify.

We tap the trees.
Empty the bowls, each one contains about 0.5 kilo.
Goes into pick up and down to Muruay.
49 a kilo.
Was on Wednesday.
Let me absolutely check everything, but I think I'm right.

----------


## jamescollister

> I'll get on it Jim.
> To clarify.
> 
> We tap the trees.
> Empty the bowls, each one contains about 0.5 kilo.
> Goes into pick up and down to Muruay.
> 49 a kilo.
> Was on Wednesday.
> Let me absolutely check everything, but I think I'm right.


  Understand what you do, same as we do, but we process our own rubber. It;s just the price that is out of wack. It is a bad price if they are paying for rubber content, but if they pay that for latex with 30 to 40 percent rubber I will be out looking to buy a tanker truck tomorrow. Jim

----------


## good2bhappy

which are the best saplings and where do you get them from?
Have just purchased an additional 44 rai taking me up to 104 in Nakorn Sawan east
Mae Pern

----------


## jamescollister

> which are the best saplings and where do you get them from?
> Have just purchased an additional 44 rai taking me up to 104 in Nakorn Sawan east
> Mae Pern


 Different areas different needs. I have 251s and 600s, 251s are a better tree for rubber production, but they tend tio fall over in wind. As I learned a few years ago when 1000 fall in one night. We only lost 2 in the end, but it was a mad dash to get rope and the tractor to pull them up. See the local Agro man, he will tell you what works in your area. As for saplings you are really at the mercy of the local nurseries unless you do your own. Jim

----------


## zillionmax

Inoculate them with truffle mycelium and you're a billionaire after 5-10 years

----------


## the dogcatcher

Can't buy buggar all than 600 round here.
Bit stuck in their ways me thinks.

----------


## jamescollister

> Can't buy buggar all than 600 round here.
> Bit stuck in their ways me thinks.


 Maybe to windy in your area for 251s, they are no different to grow  just a different clone. Jim

----------


## cheetah

> I'll get on it Jim.
> To clarify.
> 
> We tap the trees.
> Empty the bowls, each one contains about 0.5 kilo.
> Goes into pick up and down to Muruay.
> 49 a kilo.
> Was on Wednesday.
> Let me absolutely check everything, but I think I'm right.



hi dogcatcher

tried PM'ing you about this but I havent got enough posts yet. Can you PM me your skype or msn so we can further the discussion in private?

----------


## the dogcatcher

JC knows more about it than me.
I'm the banker, money lender etc.
But I will if you really want.

----------


## jizzybloke

^^Pop into the games room and up your post count

----------


## the dogcatcher

> Originally Posted by the dogcatcher
> 
> 
> I'll get on it Jim.
> To clarify.
> 
> We tap the trees.
> Empty the bowls, each one contains about 0.5 kilo.
> Goes into pick up and down to Muruay.
> ...


Can't see how but I don't think we understand each other.
Figure don't tally.

----------


## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by the dogcatcher
> ...


 I will try and make it simple. Say you tap your trees and get a 25 litre barrel full, with rubber weighing more than water the barrel would weigh 30 kilos and you say they pay 49 baht a kilo or 1470 baht for the barrel. I on the other hand spend time and money processing the latex into Ribbed smoke sheet and get 10 kilos of rubber from that barrel at 100 baht a kilo or 1000 baht for the barrel. Ergo they pay 47 baht a kilo more and do the work for you. 
Buyers here work on a 1 baht a kilo profit margin, when buying and shipping rubber to the South. On your numbers it would be 46 baht a kilo or more. jim

----------


## the dogcatcher

You keep mentioning barrels and tankers.
Are you talking pre diluted latex here or absolutely raw.

----------


## jamescollister

> You keep mentioning barrels and tankers.
> Are you talking pre diluted latex here or absolutely raw.


 DG I have no idea what you are on about, the latex flows from a tree into a cup. You pour the cup into some kind of container and you say they pay 49 baht per kilo for that liquid. What does the sale docket say. I find it hard to understand that if you are selling rubber/latex that you don;t know the price structure for latex, cup, sundried and ribbed smoked sheet. Jim

----------


## the dogcatcher

No.
Erm... things seem different round here.
The latex is delivered to Maruay in balls, not liquid if you like.
Have'nt done RSS in a while.
As you said in an earlier post getting down to the real truth in Thailand can be difficult.
I asked a woman who has been farming rubber for 30 years about her yeilds etc..
Answer was "don't know". Like hell you don't, you're Thai.
It seems that you think we are getting too good a deal, that is why I'm pulling this subject to bits.
Just checking so to speak.
Also, no one, I mean no one speaks any English and my Thai is limited.

----------


## jamescollister

> No.
> Erm... things seem different round here.
> The latex is delivered to Maruay in balls, not liquid if you like.
> Have'nt done RSS in a while.
> As you said in an earlier post getting down to the real truth in Thailand can be difficult.
> I asked a woman who has been farming rubber for 30 years about her yeilds etc..
> Answer was "don't know". Like hell you don't, you're Thai.
> It seems that you think we are getting too good a deal, that is why I'm pulling this subject to bits.
> Just checking so to speak.
> Also, no one, I mean no one speaks any English and my Thai is limited.


Ok now I get it you are selling cup rubber not latex, different price all together. They weigh your cup rubber, deduct money for moisture content and pay the 49 baht. That is not a good price at all unless the cup rubber is driping wet. We pay over 60 baht for cup and sell it the same day to another buyer. You would do much better to dry the stuff or make sundried rubber. you are losing a lot of money doing it your way. Jim

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## good2bhappy

ok local agricultural dept
how much per sapling?

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## jamescollister

Just for those who are interested
 Liquid latex from the tree is sold by rubber content and is then processed into sheet or spun  and the water removed to leave 60 percent rubber solution. Used for rubber cloves etc.
Cup/klump rubber is what you get if you tap the tree and leave the liquid to dry in the cup [this may be many days of tapping]. That rubber is sold by weight, but the buyer will deduct water content. He does this by sight only. This is a lower grade and will be dried washed  and processed. This method of collecting rubber is usually done by small holdings as it needs the least amount of work.

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## jamescollister

> ok local agricultural dept
> how much per sapling?


 Order them this year and maybe 20 plus Baht. Wait to the start of the wet next year and no one plants, cheaper. If everyone plants 40 plus Baht. Make sure you get a good nursey and watch them or you may end up with trees grown from seed. Jim

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## the dogcatcher

I think pretty much it is assumed that the rubber is dripping wet all the time.

Getting to it now.
Keep in mind 60 odd rai is small spuds to Thai Hua etc.

Sorry about the confusion.
All rubber here is sold in the manner I described.
With a little bit of RSS, not much though.

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## jamescollister

> I think pretty much it is assumed that the rubber is dripping wet all the time.
> 
> Getting to it now.
> Keep in mind 60 odd rai is small spuds to Thai Hua etc.
> 
> Sorry about the confusion.
> All rubber here is sold in the manner I described.
> With a little bit of RSS, not much though.


 60 rai maybe small to them, but you could double the money you make by making pancakes. After all you don't do the work, the tappers do. Jim

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## the dogcatcher

I will look at it when I see some solid money off this 60.

ie, I will look at financing the change.

----------


## glennb6

In prep for sooner or later when wife and I hopefully move ourselves back to Issan to operate our 39 rai rubber farm, as we expect to make money from my/our (officially her) farm, does she need to officially register as a business ? Or is it all done upcountry style ?

How you guys doing it ?

----------


## jamescollister

> In prep for sooner or later when wife and I hopefully move ourselves back to Issan to operate our 39 rai rubber farm, as we expect to make money from my/our (officially her) farm, does she need to officially register as a business ? Or is it all done upcountry style ?
> 
> How you guys doing it ?


No need for business registration or anything for that matter. Just tap the trees. Tax is paid by the exporters, so what you get is yours [ your wifes ] but you do have to pay your land tax. Jim

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## Treelover

How long does the fresh treesap keep ,before it has to be processed?
Could one collect for a week and then sell to a dealer or start processing it ?

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## jamescollister

> How long does the fresh treesap keep ,before it has to be processed?
> Could one collect for a week and then sell to a dealer or start processing it ?


If you keep it sealed to stop it drying a week easy. Jim

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## msl3232

wow thanks for all the info Jim and DC,i've been thinking about growing trees for many years now in Ubon, from year one planting , as a bit of a retirement fund when i,m 65 only 53 at the moment and go back to Oz every six months for work.
i would like to speak with you both about the process later if possible. i'm hoping to look at some land in the next couple of weeks, any good nursries here DC or is it best to do your own seedlings?

Mark :Kiwi:

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## artist

My Mrs has 45 rai mature rubber trees in Kantaralak and is thinking of planting coffee trees in between the rubber trees. Has any one tried this or is all the goodness taken from the ground.

----------


## jamescollister

> My Mrs has 45 rai mature rubber trees in Kantaralak and is thinking of planting coffee trees in between the rubber trees. Has any one tried this or is all the goodness taken from the ground.


Nothing will grow under rubber no sun light Jim

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## kiwinev

Good to catch up with this thread and the details. Cool and dark under mature trees, nice in the hot season.

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## the dogcatcher

Nice to sit under. Carefull in the wind, large bits often fall off.
As for saplings... 20 bht a pop for RM600.
Maybe look at hybrids. Better yeild.

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## Crepitus

> Originally Posted by artist
> 
> 
> My Mrs has 45 rai mature rubber trees in Kantaralak and is thinking of planting coffee trees in between the rubber trees. Has any one tried this or is all the goodness taken from the ground.
> 
> 
> Nothing will grow under rubber no sun light Jim



except for the grasses and occasional delicious mushrooms...lol....

what on earth is happening on the pricing front!!! How's a guy supposed to keep his beer fridge full!...."not happy Jan" 
Thought IRCO et al were supposed to be setting a floor price?
Hope all well with you and yours Jim?
D

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## jamescollister

Crepitus You are right about the rubber price and seems the Government 90 Baht guarantee wasted away with the floods. As I have said the only money I make is from rubber. Between the rain and now the low prices, this year has been a bad one. We still make enough to live, but when the trees go dormant, don't know if we will have the cash to get us through. May have to look for a job. As for the long term price, looks like that's up to the EU. The world economy looks like it's on the road to hell. 
     Take care Jim

----------


## Crepitus

> Crepitus You are right about the rubber price and seems the Government 90 Baht guarantee wasted away with the floods. As I have said the only money I make is from rubber. Between the rain and now the low prices, this year has been a bad one. We still make enough to live, but when the trees go dormant, don't know if we will have the cash to get us through. May have to look for a job. As for the long term price, looks like that's up to the EU. The world economy looks like it's on the road to hell. 
>      Take care Jim


yes very depressing this world of ours ....yet hundreds of billions still spent on reducing the population.

Jim: 
Looks like price is recovering slightly now...couple of years back, when the price was lower still,  we managed to survive so guess we will get through this slump too one way or another. At least we ain't under water...
The latest _opened_ trees are steadily increasing yield now too so that helps.
Seems our trees are not all in sync re "leaf down" so we can usually still cut part of the farm at any one time ...lol maybe.
By the way, you may remember that we were adding the shavings to cup lump  
(my email)....working out well.. improving overall net return by some 10-15%. Now buying in shavings.
Last week price was 26bt /kilo no discounting. Bit of an ouch compared to last month at 35bt though.
chin up mate
cheers
d

----------


## Mid

*Prices of rubber have almost halved this year                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        * 
                                November 20, 2011

*BANGKOK:* The worlds top three  rubber-producing countries, Thailand, Indonesia and Malaysia, said on  Saturday they did not see any immediate need for price intervention as  they expected the rubber market to pick up soon for seasonal reasons.  

The three countries generally export around 6 million tonnes of rubber each year and account for 70 per cent of global output.  

Indonesias  natural rubber exports in the fourth quarter could drop to 500,000  tonnes from more than 600,000 tonnes per quarter so far this year  because of weaker demand from big consumers such as China, said Suharto  Honggokusumo, executive director, of Indonesias Gapkindo rubber  industry association. Zulkifli Hasan Minister of Forestry of Indonesia  recently spoke on the rubber industrys output.

They held a  two-day meeting in Bangkok after a slump in prices caused by worries  about a recession in Europe and a slowdown in other big markets.  

Thailands  benchmark smoked rubber sheet (RSS3) hit a record high of $6.40 per kg  in February but has almost halved since then and was offered at $3.45  per kg on Friday.  

In the coming months, rubber production will  be affected by heavy monsoon rains. The recent sharp price fall is  abnormal and unreasonable, the International Tripartite Rubber Council  (ITRC) said in a statement after the meeting, adding the countries stood  ready to adopt measures if necessary.  

Such measures could  include an Agreed Export Tonnage Scheme and Supply Management scheme,  the statement said, referring respectively to export cuts and possible  domestic supply measures such as uprooting trees.

gulftoday.ae

----------


## jamescollister

> *Prices of rubber have almost halved this year                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        * 
>                                 November 20, 2011
> 
> *BANGKOK:* The worlds top three  rubber-producing countries, Thailand, Indonesia and Malaysia, said on  Saturday they did not see any immediate need for price intervention as  they expected the rubber market to pick up soon for seasonal reasons.  
> 
> The three countries generally export around 6 million tonnes of rubber each year and account for 70 per cent of global output.  
> 
> Indonesias  natural rubber exports in the fourth quarter could drop to 500,000  tonnes from more than 600,000 tonnes per quarter so far this year  because of weaker demand from big consumers such as China, said Suharto  Honggokusumo, executive director, of Indonesias Gapkindo rubber  industry association. Zulkifli Hasan Minister of Forestry of Indonesia  recently spoke on the rubber industrys output.
> 
> ...


Think Thailand's out put is a wee bit down as 1/4 of the place is under water this year.. Jim

----------


## kiwinev

How much of the 'wet land' was producing rubber? Any guesses?

----------


## jamescollister

> How much of the 'wet land' was producing rubber? Any guesses?


 No idea, but I am in a non flood area, it rained for 5 months and at a guess the are out put for here is down 30 to40 percent. Jim

----------


## Rural Surin

A question for the rubber [and product] tree experts: Is it the market norm at B30 per kilo of raw product?

----------


## jamescollister

> A question for the rubber [and product] tree experts: Is it the market norm at B30 per kilo of raw product?


 No you are getting ripped off at 30 Baht. Prices for cup dropped right down last week, All this EU crises stuff, but the price is normally much higher. Jim

----------


## Rural Surin

> Originally Posted by Rural Surin
> 
> 
> A question for the rubber [and product] tree experts: Is it the market norm at B30 per kilo of raw product?
> 
> 
>  No you are getting ripped off at 30 Baht. Prices for cup dropped right down last week, All this EU crises stuff, but the price is normally much higher. Jim


I see..
Not me. Visiting friends in Sukhothai this last week and they've some 55 rai of rubber trees up in the higher ranges where P-lok and Petchabun border. This was the talk - I'm sure that they were talking speculative. I think they're getting ripped-off.

Thanks Jim.

----------


## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Rural Surin
> ...


Think they are getting ripped of either way. With 55 rai of rubber they should be doing sheet not cup, even at the low prices do to the world financial problems you still get about 85 Baht a kilo. Jim

----------


## Old Monkey

I have 3000 rubber trees, planted 4m apart and 7 m bertwwen rows, these have received compost every year. Last year, 500 (7 years old) were ready to tap in 2011, but circumstances made it impossible. We will do sheets, and keep them in a building until the price is right. My wife, her sister and two employees will be taking a course on rubber tapping.
1000+ more in May. We're in the mountains North of Chiang Dao, where we were told that the latex is of better quality. We give about 50 tons of compost a year, and I will be watering with pigs effluent in Jan-April.
I hope to get a better return and healthier trees (most of them were given to us on a King's Project), I will be buying 300 this year to fill the gaps.
In 3-4 years, I hope for 5 MB/year. In 2012, I hope for 1000-1500 B/day, 9 months.
Am I off, in your learned opinion?

----------


## nigelandjan

^ Is pigs piss any good mate ?  I would have thought such a high concentrate of ammonia would do more harm then good. ? 

    Sounds like your doing ok anyway so what do I know .

BTW we have access  to easy cow manure opposite from our little plantation is that any use ? instead of buying the more expensive chemical type ?

----------


## jamescollister

Nigel,manure is good for the soil, but the trees need the real stuff to grow strong and be good latex producers.

OM Don't really follow your numbers, there is no daily amount, you can only work it out over a season. Some years will be good some bad. This year for us bad, non stop rain and then low prices. If you work on 5 kilos per producing tree you should be safe. Good trees with good tappers well get more.
It takes about a year for a tapper to get it right, they can do the course, but it is a skill that is learned over time. Start slow while they build up their stills. Jim

----------


## nigelandjan

^ Jim if you don't mind can you give me a clue as to how much land ( rai ) you need to plant 800 young rubber trees from the nursery on  please ? just a rough idea please

----------


## jamescollister

> ^ Jim if you don't mind can you give me a clue as to how much land ( rai ) you need to plant 800 young rubber trees from the nursery on  please ? just a rough idea please


Some people have varying ideas on how many trees per rai and depending on the land make up and neighbors crops, I say best out put is 76 trees per rai. Jim PS sent ypu a PM

----------


## nigelandjan

^ Cheers Jim that would be about right then to fill in the outstanding 11 rai the wife has

----------


## good2bhappy

76 is good
heard 80

----------


## jamescollister

> 76 is good
> heard 80


It's not really about numbers, it;s about canopy size. If 76 trees cover the area in canopy 80 will only have the same amount of light. ergo the rubber out per rai will be about the same. If the next door has rubber they will steal some of the light, if he has rice you can plant right to the edge and fit in more. Jim

----------


## isanmick

Any advice on what tree would best suit conditions in Udon Thani, thanks ?

----------


## superman

^ A money tree. Every farang is one, in a Thai womans eye.

----------


## isanmick

^my wife is my money tree, she works 6 days a week in oz and saves money very well.
I want to know what rubber tree number is best suited for udon.

----------


## jamescollister

> ^my wife is my money tree, she works 6 days a week in oz and saves money very well.
> I want to know what rubber tree number is best suited for udon.


Lots of tree types [clones] generally round your area it will be RM 600 and some RM 251s. There are better trees out there, but you will have to import them from Malaysia and they may not be suited to where you are. Stick to the 600s and you will be safe.
Jim

----------


## isanmick

Thanks Jim Appreciate the reply

----------


## glennb6

just started cutting most of our trees for the first time, how long have other (you) done kee before converting to making mat?

and if anyone has answer rather than guesses, what is the baht spread between the local kee buyer and wherever/whatever factory he sells to ? wondering if it makes sense to sideline business middleman buying kee from the locals and selling to factory?

----------


## isanmick

What's a rough estimate price per tree I Should be paying for 
RM600  ? And how tall are they ?

----------


## jamescollister

Glen best to sell to the Government until you get an idea of how it all works. Selling to a factory is better if there is one near. Most middle men make very little profit, but have a large turnover. If you are near me I will buy the liquid latex. As for making mats, that's a guestion about the condition of your trees. Good trees will put out a lot of latex, bad trees may take years to get their output up.

Mick you may be out of luck this year, most of the good trees will already have been sold. You really want the trees in the ground after the first good rains. Most Thais pre order them. You may have to just drive round to nurserys and hope for the best. As for price somewhere between 30 and 90 Baht depending on demand and condition in your district. Grow your own for next year is the best idea. Jim

----------


## sabang

We're losing a lot of forest around here (NE of Ubon) to rubber. Hope it works out for them.

----------


## isanmick

Wife got a quote for 70฿ a tree about 2 to 3 foot tall they come
And plant the trees and garantee them for 3 months. Is this a fair price ?

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## glennb6

James, not but 2km from me is Rubberland (SriTrang Group) factory which specializes in block rubber so they buy kee. Daily there are dozens of lorries entering and leaving so they do very big business. FYI, I finally got the wife to go there and ask questions, something she's been to shy/obstinate to do for quite a while. 

They quote yesterday and today at 100b per kg for kee. That is the DRC. Don't know their method of checking but obviously they do. I nuked a couple of our initial little clumps as we just opened trees for first time, and from a neighbors already going trees. They cooked out to an avg 69 percent drc, and at the local 'auctions' the quoted buy price was 60 and 61 baht per kg (wet). That's 8 and 9 baht gross per kg. Now as to whether the factory legitimately and actually will pay the 69 baht dry weight or whether they say it's a lower number take it or leave, don't know yet. We may try this and load the pickup to see what really happens. My suspicion is that it has to me more than a couple baht margin as payments on new trucks, insurance, diesel, a few workers pay daily, all has to be covered plus a profit.

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## glennb6

ps, nuking rubber in the kitchen microwave makes an odd smell, not exactly like kee but similar. kids hate it, wife gives dirty looks. ymmv so use caution

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## RubberTay

We are new me and my wife need some advise, we bought 115 rai in between mountains with pineapples on it, now we want to plant rubber trees and they advised us RRIM KT331 witch should give 500 kg a year.
Now I would like to know howmuch money I could make after 5 or 6 years and what about the costs for every year and does and donts. Can I put 100/120 trees on 1 Rai, 3.5 meter x 4 meter distance.

Please advise

RubberTay

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## jamescollister

> We are new me and my wife need some advise, we bought 115 rai in between mountains with pineapples on it, now we want to plant rubber trees and they advised us RRIM KT331 witch should give 500 kg a year.
> Now I would like to know howmuch money I could make after 5 or 6 years and what about the costs for every year and does and donts. Can I put 100/120 trees on 1 Rai, 3.5 meter x 4 meter distance.
> 
> Please advise
> 
> RubberTay


 OK I am a rubber planter and live and make my living from rubber. First never heard of that tree clone in Thailand, maybe it's a newer Malaysian clone, if so it will cost. Where are you as that will decide the tree type, rain fall wind ,soil, some trees are better suited to different areas. 
                            100 rai is a lot of rubber and will cost you big bucks to plant and take care of. If you think or the Thais tell you no problem, no cost much. That means they will not take care of the trees and you will not get a good latex output, ergo you will make little money from a bunch of under preforming trees. 
                            Just as a sample for costs over the 6, 7 years before you get a return. You need to buy a tractor, no use renting as it will cost more over the years. Fertilizer, round 200 bags a year at over 1000 Baht a bag add labor, which will be ongoing. If the wife's family say they will do it, they won't, it's years of hard work and no one works for free, even if they say they will cut the trees at 50% in the end. If they wanted to tap rubber at 40 or 50% they could do it now, I had to get my last tappers from the south as I can not find workers.
                          Before you start sit down and get a calculator and start adding and adding, everything costs, from rope to rubber cups, wear and tear on your pickup truck, tyres, fuel, poison and the list goes on. 
                          As a word of warning, if you are not resident at or near your plantation, you will pay for everything and they will do nothing and the trees will be left to fend for them selves.
                          There is another forum and in the farming section, pinned rubbertrees I have a beginners guide to rubber growing on page one. I also have a blogg and a youtube channel just Google my name and issan rubber etc. Jim

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## AUSSIE EXPAT

Jim - before I cut my trees down I had a good Cambodian lad with me for 12 months and I had him on 20%. He thought he'd won lotto.

If you hunt around you can do better than 40 - 50%. Usual problems developed once he started talking to the Thais and decided he was worth more etc etc. Rubber started disappearing as you would know so I gave it away. 80% for me was great whilst it lasted!

I'm going to look at cocoa and coffee as alternatives when I get back from Aus.

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## jamescollister

> Jim - before I cut my trees down I had a good Cambodian lad with me for 12 months and I had him on 20%. He thought he'd won lotto.
> 
> If you hunt around you can do better than 40 - 50%. Usual problems developed once he started talking to the Thais and decided he was worth more etc etc. Rubber started disappearing as you would know so I gave it away. 80% for me was great whilst it lasted!
> 
> I'm going to look at cocoa and coffee as alternatives when I get back from Aus.


 Wish I could find skilled tappers for less, but it is the law of supply and demand. Tapping is a skill and takes years to be really good. Bozzo the clown may work for less, but he will hurt the trees and get less latex out per tap. There are a lot of trees out there and people poach good tappers. Another thing to remember, even though the tappers make good money in the season, they still have to work for free in dormant period.
Don't have a theft problem here as I am around 24/7 and the families that work for me are here for a life time job, if they want.
Have had to fire some over the years, but that was mostly for total stupidity. One guy got drunk took my tractor for a 30 km drive to his home village and stayed drunk for 3 days. 
Rubber is a good solid investment, as long as you have the time and money to do it right. It is no get rich scheme that's for sure and over the years I have seen many farangs who have handed over money and never seen a return at the end. Jim

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## AUSSIE EXPAT

^ I forgot to mention that one of the factories I used to sell to told me you can cut all year if you wish just cut one stop one. Make sure the trees were healthy which I supposed to mean fertilized and watered.  

I did this towards the end and although the take was down a bit didn't seem to affect the trees. They bounced back to their "normal" after a while.

The reduced or no leaves just meant the flow slowed because of the sun - trees still had latex dormant or not.

Anyway food for thought..... :Smile:

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## jamescollister

> ^ I forgot to mention that one of the factories I used to sell to told me you can cut all year if you wish just cut one stop one. Make sure the trees were healthy which I supposed to mean fertilized and watered. 
> 
> I did this towards the end and although the take was down a bit didn't seem to affect the trees. They bounced back to their "normal" after a while.
> 
> The reduced or no leaves just meant the flow slowed because of the sun - trees still had latex dormant or not.
> 
> Anyway food for thought.....


Won't work here, latex output falls like a rock after New Year. We go to 1 on 1 off, then 1 on 2 off. By the end of  Feb there is not enough out put to justify the labour. After the leaf drop stop, not doing the trees any good in the long term. Jim

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## franky

Well exactly I also don't know the price of rubber trees. I guess it will be little bit expensive. Anyways it is usually grown in the southern region. It is good if you plant commercial rubber tree as in output it will give large source of income.

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## rubberdiesel

hello can anyone explain to me how and what is different between rubber tree rimm 600 and RRIM KT331?. because i want to start my first new plantation.

thanks.

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## Norton

A bit off topic but I noticed the kitchen cabinets I purchased are made of rubber tree wood. Seems more and more furniture is using the wood. Is there money to be made selling rubber tree wood?

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## jamescollister

> A bit off topic but I noticed the kitchen cabinets I purchased are made of rubber tree wood. Seems more and more furniture is using the wood. Is there money to be made selling rubber tree wood?


 Some Malaysian rubber clones produce good large volume lumber. Sometimes sold as Malaysian oak.
As rubber is a plantation tree, no problem exporting, unlike teak etc which need permits from day one, Trouble with Thai rubber is the trees are for rubber production and don't have a big board foot lumber out put. So you get a lot less for the trees. 
In 20 years when mine have had there day, my kids may get a nice little earner, if real wood is rare. Jim

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## Norton

> In 20 years when mine have had there day


That's what I understood. Trees are worth more as wood when there yield rate is past peak. Thanks for the answer.

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## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> In 20 years when mine have had there day
> 
> 
> That's what I understood. Trees are worth more as wood when there yield rate is past peak. Thanks for the answer.


My pleasure to answer a sensible question on TD. On some other threats sensible questions and answers are few and far between. Jim

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