#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Farming & Gardening In Thailand >  >  What's rubber doing at the moment ?

## The Big Fella

Greetings people. Can anyone tell me how rubber is doing at the moment ? The wife has been offered some land with rubber so just testing the water so to speak. Her head is being filled as usual with tales of money flowing in by the seller    :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  so just looking for some help with putting my 2 satangs worth into the debate  :Smile: 
Cheers chaps ! :UK:

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## taxexile

Its low, but it should bounce back.

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## jamescollister

Rubber price is low and will stay that way until some good numbers start coming from China US and the EU.

More important to you is how good the trees are. Thais can live with poor under producing trees, as they tap themselves and all the money goes in their pocket. You can't, so the trees have to produce enough to pay tappers and still leave money as profit.
I have good high producing trees and can't get enough tappers, if you have poor trees you will not get anyone to work for you. Jim

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## nidhogg

> Its low, but it should bounce back.


Boom boom!!

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## The Big Fella

Thanks for the input James. Much appreciated. My wifes friends husband is from a rubber background and has looked at the land and says the trees are OK. 5 - 6 years old. he would be doing the work on a 60 40 split in our favour. The rubber wouldn't be bought as our main income so anything generated would be seen as a bonus but I would like eventually to see a return on the outlay for the initial land purchase. 
I did find this site for current rubber prices which others might find useful

Untitled Document

And also this blog here 

Rubber tree economics | BANDUNGLIFE

I can't honestly say what an unsmoked sheet is at the moment so can't say whether it is a good price but it sits at nearly 75 Baht a kilo 
As said it is something for the wife really I just don't want her to throw her money away for nothing. 
Myself I have found a farm where I can go and stay and learn how to grow mushrooms. Not on a commercial scale but just something to keep me busy and if it generates some beer tokens all the better 
Cheers again James

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## jamescollister

> Thanks for the input James. Much appreciated. My wifes friends husband is from a rubber background and has looked at the land and says the trees are OK. 5 - 6 years old. he would be doing the work on a 60 40 split in our favour. The rubber wouldn't be bought as our main income so anything generated would be seen as a bonus but I would like eventually to see a return on the outlay for the initial land purchase. 
> I did find this site for current rubber prices which others might find useful
> 
> Untitled Document
> 
> And also this blog here 
> 
> Rubber tree economics | BANDUNGLIFE
> 
> ...


If you put my name into a YouTube search or just Google me. I have lots of videos of rubber tapping and sheet making.

Word of warning, if you ask a Thai a question he will give you an answer, you could point out a teak tree plantation and ask is that a good rubber plantation and chances are he would say they are ok rubber trees. Jim

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## The Big Fella

Cheers again James. as said much appreciated. i will have to have a look on Youtube as I have often wondered how they make the sheets . 
Top man

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## Gravesend Dave

We have  5 rai (has Nor Sor Sam ) of rubber and the wife has a half share of her Fathers.
We had planned to buy 10 to 15 rai of rubber but was unable to find any more with Chanote or Nor Sor Sam.

We bought ours last year and am sure they were about 6 years old,the seller was already cutting.
We have left the trees for almost a year and plan to start getting them tapped after the rainy season. 

Personally I would not buy rubber land without a Chanote or Nor sor sam paper.

The price of rubber is low yet Thais are still clearing land were ever possible and planting trees, in the hope that some Falang will shell out average 1.5 million for about twenty odd rai with trees 1 or 2 years old.

Thais will fill you up with what ever crap to flog their land,but rubber trees is not rocket science.
If the tree are on poor land and not looked after you can expect little return,trees that have been fertilizer 3 to 4 times a year and tapped correctly and not damaged are what you want.

Take a trusted family friend who knows his stuff to give you his opinion.

The real winner with rubber will always be the Thais who got the land for nothing or cheap and of course the Tappers who get 40 percent cut.

Once you look at a few farms,see how they work you will soon realise there,s not much to learn.Tapping takes a bit of practice(hour or so on a non rubber tree ),but buy far the hardest bit about the game now is buying decent land to farm which your wife will legally own!

Good luck with it

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## ltnt

BIL just planted about 10 rai of rubber trees.  Seems to spend a great deal of time in care of these beginning shoots.  Watering, clearing weeds, fertilizing and generally nurturing the young trees.  So far he's only lost three plants, and has replaced same.

He has other land that is used for various crop rotations mainly rice and corn.  I've seen loads of rubber tree land with pineapples planted in-between rows of trees.  I presume alternate crop financial support is nice.

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## The Big Fella

Cheers Guys. The land in question has a chanote title and has around 1100 trees, around 6-6 years old I think. not sure of the land size and there is a house, Thai style for the tapper to use. the tapper is an old friend of my wifes so trusted. It is her money so  just trying to make sure she is just throwing it away. I get the impression it is more to give her friend some job security rather than anything else as is her personality. 
Cheers again chaps  :Smile:

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## jamescollister

I personally would not care what title the land has, charnote is best, but possession land with no title is cheaper. Use it or lose it land, if you plant rubber you are using it and no one will take the land off your wife. The charnote will be issued when they get round to that area. No charnote land out here, but good rubber land, BIL just sold a small plantation, 560 trees 9 year old for 1.4 mil Baht. They were good trees, high latex producers which had been taken care of properly from day one. Thai buyers, no farangs out here but me.

Where most farangs fall down, is you can't be an absentee planter, if you are not there things will be done the Thai way, not the right way. Good example, about 30 km from here an Aussie planted 25 rai and left the in laws to take care of them. He sent the money for fertilizer etc each year. The trees are 15 years old now and have never seen a tappers knife, they are in such poor shape that no percentage tapper would be interested.

For those looking at buying mature trees you need to go watch them tap for a few days to see how much rubber the trees produce. It's a fine line between profit and loss, you still have to pay for the fertilizer, fuel , machines, if you do sheet and electricity the same for good trees as bad. Also take in to consideration the difference in price between sheet and cup.

One way to get an idea of how well the trees were taken care of, is to look at the branch height from the ground. Trees when growing should have had all the small branches removed to the 3 meter mark. Tall trees with high branches show at least the grower did more than just stick them in the ground and leave them to grow. Jim

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## The Big Fella

All good advice James and gratefully accepted and taken on board. Planning on going to have a look next week sometime so may plan in a couple of days there to watch the tapping. cheers again TBF  :Smile:

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## jamescollister

> All good advice James and gratefully accepted and taken on board. Planning on going to have a look next week sometime so may plan in a couple of days there to watch the tapping. cheers again TBF


If you have any questions feel free to PM or e mail me.
Rubber is my game and how we make our living and not a bad living.
Have to run as they are gassing the village hut but hut, Dengue fever is about. Jim

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## ltnt

James, How long do rubber trees produce?  I had the impression it was shorter than what you've quoted, 15 years? :Smile:

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## Gravesend Dave

> Cheers Guys. The land in question has a chanote title and has around 1100 trees, around 6-6 years old I think. not sure of the land size and there is a house, Thai style for the tapper to use. the tapper is an old friend of my wifes so trusted. It is her money so  just trying to make sure she is just throwing it away. I get the impression it is more to give her friend some job security rather than anything else as is her personality. 
> Cheers again chaps


Chanote is the best start,1100 trees the land would be about 16 rai

How much are they asking,for the right price it sounds like a good buy.

In the area of Issan where our trees are about 80 percent of rubber farms are on land with Sor Bor Gor tittle.
You may or may not know that this land is basically family land which was allocated by government to poor farmers.They pay a small amount of tax per year and the name on the tittle can not be changed.
It can never be changed to Chanote or other tittle under current Thai law,also its illegal to sell.
The Thais do sell this land,as a falang  I would never put money into this land hence the reason we only managed to find 5 rai.

Good rubber farms with a tittle are hard to find and will be more expensive.

As we know rubber prices do go up and down,when their rock bottom the game aint worth two bob.

Putting money into land on the basis of use it or lose it would never be for me!

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## The Big Fella

Dave Hi. The land in question has chanote title and is in Surat Thani. Around 1100 mature trees with a house and they are asking 3.5 million Baht. Not sure how much land but going to go look next week. Rubber there at the moment is fetching just under 75 Baht a kilo for unsmoked sheets whatever that means  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 
As said I get the impression that this is more to give her friend and her husband some job security rather than a money spinning venture though if there is money to be made I could be persuaded to put some time and energy into the project  :Smile: 
Cheers again all

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## jamescollister

> James, How long do rubber trees produce?  I had the impression it was shorter than what you've quoted, 15 years?


Can't remember saying 15 years unless I was referring to one of the Malaysian super clones. Which are fast growing high latex yield and a very high lumber value. Your good old RIMM 600 trees if taken care of will produce for over 20 years. The first rubber tree planted in Thailand is still alive, think about 175 years, not tapped of course.

On the land subject, it's the Governments intent to issue charnote to all lands under an IMF project. The intention is to allow small farmers to be able to use the land as collateral with the banks so they can buy tractors etc. Reality is it will allow the rich to buy the land and make large more productive farms.
When we build our small rubber factory we had to buy land and you can't change the title on crown owned farm land, but with possession land, no title you can apply to have the usage changed. We through the National SME Department applied and got industrial zoning and the charnote followed a few years later. Jim

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## Gravesend Dave

> Dave Hi. The land in question has chanote title and is in Surat Thani. Around 1100 mature trees with a house and they are asking 3.5 million Baht. Not sure how much land but going to go look next week. Rubber there at the moment is fetching just under 75 Baht a kilo for unsmoked sheets whatever that means 
> As said I get the impression that this is more to give her friend and her husband some job security rather than a money spinning venture though if there is money to be made I could be persuaded to put some time and energy into the project 
> Cheers again all


Our mob just add acid and sell the rubber,a couple of the uncles do the sheets which is better money and worth doing.

If that is as I think about 16 rai and you can get lecky and water on site depending on the surrounding area it sounds like a bargain.

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## Rural Surin

> Rubber price is low and will stay that way until some good numbers start coming from China US and the EU.
> 
> More important to you is how good the trees are. Thais can live with poor under producing trees, as they tap themselves and all the money goes in their pocket. You can't, so the trees have to produce enough to pay tappers and still leave money as profit.
> I have good high producing trees and can't get enough tappers, if you have poor trees you will not get anyone to work for you. Jim


Decent and fair assessment, Jim.
Even in the best of times, sap producers don't receive a real value for their raw product. Less.....to considering selling land that might or might not future possibilities.

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## Seekingasylum

> Its low, but it should bounce back.


People have been shot for less.

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## Seekingasylum

When everyone is jumping in, it's time to get out.

The boom is over. China is heading for a collapse in their housing market and as everyone knows the world over this affects consumption in areas where there is choice. New cars are a luxury. 

Palm oil is the future but it takes effort, which probably explains why the Thai have never been too keen on it. Nevertheless, with the revolution in food processing abandoning trans fats the West is just realising the benefits of palm oil and its use, previously neglected, is increasing exponentially. 

To date Malaysia and Indonesia supply over 90 % with Thailand accounting for only 1-2%. 

If I were that interested that's what I'd be doing.

Hot climate, hundreds of sunshine hours and plenty of rain. Cultivation is straightforward but requires attention. Takes 4 years before the money starts rolling in.

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## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> Rubber price is low and will stay that way until some good numbers start coming from China US and the EU.
> 
> More important to you is how good the trees are. Thais can live with poor under producing trees, as they tap themselves and all the money goes in their pocket. You can't, so the trees have to produce enough to pay tappers and still leave money as profit.
> I have good high producing trees and can't get enough tappers, if you have poor trees you will not get anyone to work for you. Jim
> 
> 
> ...


We are all just slaves to the alleged free market, the big players set the rules and the small farmer just has to make the best of it they can. Rubber will go up again to it's highs, but the wages will rise. Would think Thailand has 10 to 15 years left before the cost of labor makes it non viable to do rubber without using foreign cheap labor, if there is any left. Malaysian is in that boat now, that's way most of their new clones are for lumber production, rubber is just an added extra.
                            SEA is booming in a world that's in stagnation, imagine what it will be like in the next global boom. If you own land your future will be safe. There is a big hungry monster to the north that needs fed. When the time of rubber is over the next need will be there and you can grow anything here if you have the land. Jim

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## DrAndy

> Palm oil is the future but it takes effort, which probably explains why the Thai have never been too keen on it. Nevertheless, with the revolution in food processing abandoning trans fats the West is just realising the benefits of palm oil and its use


I think you will find that Palm oil is now seen as unhealthy a food oil as any containing trans fats

lots of research on it, try Google

Palm oil plantations in Malaysia and Indonesia have decimated natural forests, and this is continuing, not for food oil but for biofuel production






> China is heading for a collapse in their housing market and as everyone knows the world over this affects consumption in areas where there is choice. New cars are a luxury.


that is your opinion and not that of many others

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## jamescollister

Agree Dr Andy, China may slow but it will not collapse, if you start from a low base the only way is up. There maybe bubbles in places, but overall the direction is up, bigger and better. It will be along time before they a billion plus people stop growing. Jim

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## ltnt

> Where most farangs fall down, is you can't be an absentee planter, if you are not there things will be done the Thai way, not the right way. Good example, about 30 km from here an Aussie planted 25 rai and left the in laws to take care of them. He sent the money for fertilizer etc each year. The trees are 15 years old now and have never seen a tappers knife, they are in such poor shape that no percentage tapper would be interested.


Jim,
Post #11 above is where I got the 15 years.  Interesting that there is a rubber tree 125 years old left standing.  Most would have thought it would have been cut down for cash by now.

Even though the rubber market price may be low at present, wouldn't you be better off and able to continue to collect sap and retain it until the market price advanced once again?  No need to sell at lower price is there?  If you're strapped for income then I suppose that would be a factor even if you take a loss?

Do you grow alternative crops to supplement your rubber income?

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## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> Where most farangs fall down, is you can't be an absentee planter, if you are not there things will be done the Thai way, not the right way. Good example, about 30 km from here an Aussie planted 25 rai and left the in laws to take care of them. He sent the money for fertilizer etc each year. The trees are 15 years old now and have never seen a tappers knife, they are in such poor shape that no percentage tapper would be interested.
> 
> 
> Jim,
> Post #11 above is where I got the 15 years.  Interesting that there is a rubber tree 125 years old left standing.  Most would have thought it would have been cut down for cash by now.
> 
> Even though the rubber market price may be low at present, wouldn't you be better off and able to continue to collect sap and retain it until the market price advanced once again?  No need to sell at lower price is there?  If you're strapped for income then I suppose that would be a factor even if you take a loss?
> ...


Just like in the west when I had a job, money comes in and goes out. 2 young kids, car payments, house still has work that needs done, always something that needs replaced and the beer bill. With the low price not enough cash left to try and play the market, last time I tried stock piling 2008/9 got burnt.

Have tried ducks, chickens, cassava, chilly and fish as side lines, none have turned a profit. With the rubber all I have to do is drive the pick up to collect the rubber every 2 or so weeks, watch the buyer weigh it, collect the cash pay the workers and get drunk.
Where I live the motto is who works if you have rice, if there was gold laying on the street they couldn't be bothered to pick it up if the rice shed was full. Jim

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## The Big Fella

Funny you should mention ducks James as I was only yesterday offered 500 egg laying ducks  :Smile: 
No money in ducks or just too much trouble for the money ?

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## jamescollister

> Funny you should mention ducks James as I was only yesterday offered 500 egg laying ducks 
> No money in ducks or just too much trouble for the money ?


You can make some money from ducks, but you need a good set up. My problem was, we have a river at the back of the house, where we build a duck shed. Now some off the ducks preferred to nest on the river bank, making them free range for the locals, so ducks and eggs would go missing on a regular basis. Now at 100 Baht a kilo you don't need to lose too many ducks before your profit margin is gone. Add to that dogs and snakes which take their share.

They take a lot of looking after and if you hire a Thai or relative to look after them and you are not there to supervise they will not be taken care of and the loss and death rate will increase. 

Always more to these things than just collecting the eggs to sell. Jim

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## ltnt

> watch the buyer weigh it, collect the cash pay


Did you sell to a "government agent?"  Most of my  inlaws and neighbors sell at an already agreed to price for their "produce, rice, beans, etc. to a government agent.  Price seldom varies over 1 or 2 baht from week to week per kilo.

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## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> watch the buyer weigh it, collect the cash pay
> 
> 
> Did you sell to a "government agent?"  Most of my  inlaws and neighbors sell at an already agreed to price for their "produce, rice, beans, etc. to a government agent.  Price seldom varies over 1 or 2 baht from week to week per kilo.


Sell to whoever is paying the most. This time of year we are doing cup and sell wet cup to private buyers, get a better price than the Gov buyers because the private buyers are buying for crepe rubber, where the Government buys dry cup for TSR.

When the rains slow or stop we will go back onto smoked sheet or move over to hot air dried [if I have the money to build the shed.] Then we sell to the Government or make deals with buyers from the south, who come up with a truck and a big load of cash. We put the word out that we are buying at over the Gov price. Locals don't trust black hearts from the south. Buyer pays 1,000 Baht to rent the factory for the day, wife does the grading and buying for the buyer. End of day tally up and we get 2 Baht for every kilo bought, plus our own rubber. 
Nice little earner. Jim

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## ltnt

> Locals don't trust black hearts from the south. Buyer pays 1,000 Baht to rent the factory for the day, wife does the grading and buying for the buyer. End of day tally up and we get 2 Baht for every kilo bought, plus our own rubber. Nice little earner. Jim


That's interesting.  By "factory," you mean the shed with the mill for flat sheet making?

Buyers from the South?  Yala or Malaysia?

When you don't go this route who are the non-governmet buyers representing?  Japanese interests?  

Crepe rubber? (liquid?)  Dry cup is the ball dry rubber?  TSR for tires?

Obviously rubber has many different grades and qualities...do the type of tree tapped differ on the type of rubber harvested?
Thanks Jim

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## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> Locals don't trust black hearts from the south. Buyer pays 1,000 Baht to rent the factory for the day, wife does the grading and buying for the buyer. End of day tally up and we get 2 Baht for every kilo bought, plus our own rubber. Nice little earner. Jim
> 
> 
> That's interesting.  By "factory," you mean the shed with the mill for flat sheet making?
> 
> Buyers from the South?  Yala or Malaysia?
> 
> ...


By factory, yes a shed with rollers, but we are a bit bigger than your average shed. When I first stared I was going to be a rubber tycoon and was on my way until the world took a financial dump 2008/9. It is a licensed rubber processing factory with all the permits etc. Makes no money, but we keep it legal as they will no longer issue open rubber licenses. On paper at least it's worth a bit.

Buyers from the south, Rayong, Phuket, just middlemen with a deal with one of the big rubber houses or supply contracts to factories. There are lots of private buyers around, competition is fierce. Could do the contract stuff my self, had plenty of Chinese inquiring, but you are taking big money up front to buy the amounts they want. 

Crepe rubber is just normal cup rubber,but clean and still wet. They take it and make sheet rubber with lots of air in it, used for running shoes etc.

Different trees and type of rubber, not that I am aware of, 251s produce a darker rubber than the 600s, but at least at this end of things they are all graded on the same scale [Green book ] Jim

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## ltnt

Good stuff Jim.  Very interesting.  Seems a shame your investment went south, but that's part of living.  Hopefully the marketplace will recover and you'll make it all back.  Thanks for all the good feedback and best of luck.

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## jamescollister

> Good stuff Jim.  Very interesting.  Seems a shame your investment went south, but that's part of living.  Hopefully the marketplace will recover and you'll make it all back.  Thanks for all the good feedback and best of luck.


Probably better I didn't get to be a rich rubber tycoon or I would be running around all stressed out trying to make my next million. Instead here I sit playing on the computer taking care of the kids and in 15 minutes it will be beer o'clock. Jim

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## ltnt

Next days all a surprise...spose?

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## piwanoi

> Greetings people. Can anyone tell me how rubber is doing at the moment ? The wife has been offered some land with rubber so just testing the water so to speak. Her head is being filled as usual with tales of money flowing in by the seller    so just looking for some help with putting my 2 satangs worth into the debate 
> Cheers chaps !


 Does you wife have a  name or do you call her "the wife?  I hear this Superior Male chauvinistic  crap all the time "the wife " and as Yasojack will confirm in spite of our many differences ,I always call her by her name which is Jan ,ain;t that right Jack :Smile:  BTW  rubber is crap and when the millions of seedlings come on stream supply is going to far exceed demand or in other words a downwards spiral  :Smile:

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## Pragmatic

> Jim


I haven't yet met a farang that says farming keeps his head above water. Or a Thai come to that. So if given the chance to start out again, in what field, excuse the pun, would you like to have tried?

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## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by The Big Fella
> 
> 
> Greetings people. Can anyone tell me how rubber is doing at the moment ? The wife has been offered some land with rubber so just testing the water so to speak. Her head is being filled as usual with tales of money flowing in by the seller    so just looking for some help with putting my 2 satangs worth into the debate 
> Cheers chaps !
> 
> 
>  Does you wife have a  name or do you call her "the wife?  I hear this Superior Male chauvinistic  crap all the time "the wife " and as Yasojack will confirm in spite of our many differences ,I always call her by her name which is Jan ,ain;t that right Jack BTW  rubber is crap and when the millions of seedlings come on stream supply is going to far exceed demand or in other words a downwards spiral


Hell millions of new saplings, maybe I should run out and sell my plantations now. Or maybe not, Thailand biggest producer of rubber in the world, average output per tree 5 kilos of solid rubber. How much rubber to make a tire and how many new cars were sold last year in say China, never mind the rest of the world. Think that would account for about 4 or 5 million trees alone, then of course you have your artificial rubber, made from oil. If rubber prices collapsed your plastics makers would move over to many rubber based produces, shutting down oil wells, don't think that will happen.
Rubber has been around for over 200 years and no one has found anything better. 
When that plane you are on hits the tarmac it could very well be my grade 1 rubber that takes the brunt of impact. Jim

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## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
>  Jim
> 
> 
> I haven't yet met a farang that says farming keeps his head above water. Or a Thai come to that. So if given the chance to start out again, in what field, excuse the pun, would you like to have tried?


Missed your post must have been when I was writing the other reply. Anyway if I was starting again I couldn't, land prices are just too high, I would have been a wage slave with the wife and kids in Australia for the rest of my life.

Took a chance and gambled the lot over here, not bothered to do the numbers last season, turning Issan /Thai, who cares as long as you live OK. Not done a days paid work in 4 years as of the coming of June. Have absolutely no income from the west and won't even get a old age pension [ if I live that long ] as I am deemed a non resident.

Season before last kept the books, made , [ don't know where you come from so will use US dollars ]. $36.000 profit.  No mortgage or rent, not rich by a long shot, but a hell of a better life for me, the wife and kids than we had in Australia.
Kids go to a Government invite only pre school, we drive a brand new Pajero sport, or it was when we bought it 2 years ago. Never owned a new car in my life before Thailand.

Have a blog Issan Thailand Life, It will tell you how I ended up here in a jungle village at the end of no where, if you are interested. Jim

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## sranchito

Sounds to be an interesting read, Jim.  Searched for it and didn't find it.  if you would be so kind as to list the url?

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## jamescollister

[quote=sranchito;2431660]Sounds to be an interesting read, Jim.  Searched for it and didn't find it.  if you would be so kind as to list the url?[/ Not too internet smart, but  try this.

Issan Thailand Life

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## Pragmatic

> if I was starting again I couldn't, land prices are just too high, I would have been a wage slave with the wife and kids in Australia for the rest of my life.


Thanks for the reply Jim, but all I wanted to know was, if you could start all over again with land prices as they were when you started, would you still go with rubber, or go with a different crop? Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Regarding land prices. Yes they've gone ridiculous but they're still selling. Quite obvious that Thais cannot work out that to get a return on their investment it may take them 25 years just to break even.

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## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> if I was starting again I couldn't, land prices are just too high, I would have been a wage slave with the wife and kids in Australia for the rest of my life.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the reply Jim, but all I wanted to know was, if you could start all over again with land prices as they were when you started, would you still go with rubber, or go with a different crop? Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
> Regarding land prices. Yes they've gone ridiculous but they're still selling. Quite obvious that Thais cannot work out that to get a return on their investment it may take them 25 years just to break even.


If I knew then what I know now, I would have hocked everything, got bank and credit card loans, done a runner and had more rubber and maybe some palm oil. Too late now.
As to land prices, it may be us that has it wrong and the Thais have it right. In the west how much would you pay for a business/farm that gave a life time income, place to live and food on the table. Think if you put most peoples pension schemes [private] against the return from 10 rai of rubber, palm oil, cashew nuts, the Thai is doing better. Jim

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## Pragmatic

> Think if you put most peoples pension schemes [private] against the return from 10 rai of rubber, palm oil, cashew nuts, the Thai is doing better. Jim


Not for me Jim. My father told me, when I left home, to join a pension scheme and stick with it. That I did even when there were times I really couldn't afford the bloody thing. I became unfit for work early and was made redundant. The pension fund agreed to pay, me with a 5 year enhancement on top. I get 55,000+ Baht per month, with annual increments (current exchange rate), and will do so until I die. My wife then gets a percentage, from my death, until she dies. So  pension schemes worked for me. but in saying that, like farming, it's all a gamble.

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## sranchito

[QUOTE=jamescollister;2431663]


> Sounds to be an interesting read, Jim.  Searched for it and didn't find it.  if you would be so kind as to list the url?[/ Not too internet smart, but  try this.
> 
> Issan Thailand Life


Thanks Jim.  Interesting reading.  Reminds me of some of what I have experienced as well regarding how the rural Isaan thinking.  Makes me somewhat home sick and wondering what my SIL is up to today.  Need to give her a ring.

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## sranchito

> Originally Posted by Pragmatic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by jamescollister
> ...


I am with ya on that.  We have 1000 acre/2500 rai rice farms and the farmers ain't living the high life.  Bank owns everything.  Know one farmer that quit rice farming and became a car salesman.

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## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Pragmatic
> ...


 And when the insane rice subsidy scheme finally Collapses which as sure as night follows day it undoubtedly will, what then for the others who are hanging on?, I live right in the "rice belt" and without exception every one in my little Village is up to the eye balls in debt ,I have also no doubt that with a little thought and expertise by "outsiders"  that there is much room for Improvement :Smile:

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## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by sranchito
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by jamescollister
> ...


sranchito, thanks for reading the blogg, hope you found it interesting.

piwanoi Thailand is a newly born industrialize nation and just like most of the west 100 or 200 years ago the people will be moved off the land to work in the factories. Just the way of the world, I see it in our little village, people selling rice land to buy cars. Little do they realize that the car will not fill the rice shed and when there is no rice they will move to the cities to find work.
One day someone will come and offer me [if I am still alive ] or my kids a deal for our land to good to refuse and we will be off the land.
Don't know where you are from, but how many small farms are the left compared to 50 years ago.
Rubber has one advantage over other type farming, it's labor intense, you can't buy a giant harvester and put 100 people out of work in one day. Think I am safe for a few years yet and by the way rubber prices are on the up. Jim

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## piwanoi

Hi Jim I live about 50kms South of Buri ram ,I've been here since April 04 ,and as you rightly say many Thai's appear to fritter their money away on  non essentials , many here only work at planting and harvesting time and appear to have a lot of time on their hands ,time were they could be doing other things ,this is why I said  earlier ,I am sure with the right approach their lives could Improve ,nice to hear that Rubbers going up too, many have give up on Rice ,and now on the higher ground thousands of rubber saplings have taken rices place ,Jans Aunt has 15 Rai chock full of 18 month old trees ,but she's a grafter and is down there almost every day doing something or other ,shame her bone idle husband is not the same way inclined ,theres a Dutch guy about 15 kms from me who comes in our local who's got 25 rai of 2 year old trees so he's confident enough in rubbers future ,I suppose its the same old adage you only get out what you put in innit :Smile:

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## Gravesend Dave

> Hi Jim I live about 50kms South of Buri ram ,I've been here since April 04 ,and as you rightly say many Thai's appear to fritter their money away on  non essentials , many here only work at planting and harvesting time and appear to have a lot of time on their hands ,time were they could be doing other things ,this is why I said  earlier ,I am sure with the right approach their lives could Improve ,nice to hear that Rubbers going up too, many have give up on Rice ,and now on the higher ground thousands of rubber saplings have taken rices place ,Jans Aunt has 15 Rai chock full of 18 month old trees ,but she's a grafter and is down there almost every day doing something or other ,shame her bone idle husband is not the same way inclined ,theres a Dutch guy about 15 kms from me who comes in our local who's got 25 rai of 2 year old trees so he's confident enough in rubbers future ,I suppose its the same old adage you only get out what you put in innit


Thats true of most things,but when the ass drops out of rubber its not worth two bob!

18 month old saplings,f me Feed once a quarter then keep the weeds down,tuth be know trying to find a falang buyer!,bet my bollocks its Sor Bor Gor tittle,reality worth S F A .

Its been a good game for the Thai from the start,cost them F.A !

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## ltnt

FYI, In my wife's moo ban nobody is allowed to sell their land to anyone outside the original families in the moo ban. The big shots from Bangkok already tried and failed to buy up properties with big money and were summarily turned down due to collective pressure by residents.  Same goes for the establishment of so called "Christian Churches."  When we bought our piece of land the biggest question was my wife's family background and her links to the ban.  The next question was what was her intentions for use of the land?  No factories or manufacturing allowed by moo ban residents.

Agree many can be bought out and will be bought out over time and as the general population decreases in the country. The children are steadily moving to the cities and seeking employment in something less tedious and so called reliable.

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## Pragmatic

> I live about 50kms South of Buri ram


Cant be too far from me. Give me a location and I may pop round.

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## piwanoi

^Hi Pragmatic sent you a PM  :Smile:

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## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by piwanoi
> 
> 
> Hi Jim I live about 50kms South of Buri ram ,I've been here since April 04 ,and as you rightly say many Thai's appear to fritter their money away on  non essentials , many here only work at planting and harvesting time and appear to have a lot of time on their hands ,time were they could be doing other things ,this is why I said  earlier ,I am sure with the right approach their lives could Improve ,nice to hear that Rubbers going up too, many have give up on Rice ,and now on the higher ground thousands of rubber saplings have taken rices place ,Jans Aunt has 15 Rai chock full of 18 month old trees ,but she's a grafter and is down there almost every day doing something or other ,shame her bone idle husband is not the same way inclined ,theres a Dutch guy about 15 kms from me who comes in our local who's got 25 rai of 2 year old trees so he's confident enough in rubbers future ,I suppose its the same old adage you only get out what you put in innit
> 
> 
> Thats true of most things,but when the ass drops out of rubber its not worth two bob!
> 
> 18 month old saplings,f me Feed once a quarter then keep the weeds down,tuth be know trying to find a falang buyer!,bet my bollocks its Sor Bor Gor tittle,reality worth S F A .
> ...


Perhaps you can enlighten me as to when the ass will drop out of rubber and not be worth 2 bob.
Got the same predictions 10, 11 years ago when I first started, Government was giving out free rubber trees and cheap land to plant. The nay Sayers on the other forum all predicted an over supply and rubber would be worthless, waste of money, time and effort doing anything in Thailand, it's all a scam etc.
Well I'm still here and even though the rubber price is not good, it will have to drop a lot lower before I will be handing in the keys to our big black SUV because I can't make the payments. Jim

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## piwanoi

^  IMHO The thing what saves rubber is that its not an artificially jacked up price like rice , which makes it far more expensive on the World market and at the mercy of its competitors ,there will always be highs and lows in any commodity but if all the producers are selling or buyng at the same price ,then as far as I can see if you can ride out the storm you should be OK enough , I am aware that land prices are on the up ,but how much would it be if Rubber was Sky high like it was a few years ago?  :Smile:

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## Gravesend Dave

What,s the currant price for cup rubber per kilo?

The family have sent the wife her share as they have just started to cut again.
Seems a bit to low to me as in the money they sent. Its not that I don,t trust them :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  but am curious to know average figures at present!.
Thanks

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## Mosha

Last time we sold
 Kee Yang (last week) 32 B/Kg

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## Gravesend Dave

> Last time we sold
>  Kee Yang (last week) 32 B/Kg


Cheers! Same as they are telling the wife.

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## Gravesend Dave

> Originally Posted by Gravesend Dave
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
>  Originally Posted by piwanoi
> ...


Good luck Jim hope you get to run that motor into the ground!,its always nice to hear that people are doing well

I know a couple of years back the price per kilo was down to about 14 bht.

It is a fact that when the price drops below a certain level being a rubber farmer is not worth two bob.

I did not invest heavily for reasons already stated.

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## jamescollister

Local price tomorrow, as we are selling, wet cup 37 Baht a kilo. As we are bigger suppliers we get 38 Baht a kilo. Not sure what the dry cup price will be. This is a crepe rubber price not a TSR price for cup.
RSS or air dried is back up to 80 Baht a kilo, but we haven't gone back to sheet yet, rain and lack of workers.
GD remember well 2008/9 had a shed full of RSS, 150 Baht a kilo, dropped to 36 Baht a kilo. Sent me broke to be honest, but not out of business, this year we will break the 5 tons a months RSS during the good few months. If prices get back to $5 US a kilo we will be living high on the hog, if not we will live. Jim

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## Gravesend Dave

Hope it goes up a fair bit,around 50 per kilo is alright as far as the money the wife pulls of the family is concerned.
The wife,s father averages about 500 kilo cup rubber every ten or so days, never worked that out in tons a month but they seem to do OK.
All the best Dave.

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## jamescollister

> Hope it goes up a fair bit,around 50 per kilo is alright as far as the money the wife pulls of the family is concerned.
> The wife,s father averages about 500 kilo cup rubber every ten or so days, never worked that out in tons a month but they seem to do OK.
> All the best Dave.


Think they would be doing alright, if they are tapping 2 on 1 off. If so and they went over to sheet, that would give then an income in the good months of around 80.000 Baht a month, minus costs. Don't know the exchange rates with the pound, but think it would be better than the dole in the UK. Jim

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## Gravesend Dave

> Originally Posted by Gravesend Dave
> 
> 
> Hope it goes up a fair bit,around 50 per kilo is alright as far as the money the wife pulls of the family is concerned.
> The wife,s father averages about 500 kilo cup rubber every ten or so days, never worked that out in tons a month but they seem to do OK.
> All the best Dave.
> 
> 
> Think they would be doing alright, if they are tapping 2 on 1 off. If so and they went over to sheet, that would give then an income in the good months of around 80.000 Baht a month, minus costs. Don't know the exchange rates with the pound, but think it would be better than the dole in the UK. Jim


Thanks Jim!
Not reached that dole point yet mate!
We have a small bit of rubber land that is not yet being tapped,agreed only to buy it as it had a title paper.
Saw that as an investment for my children!
The wife has a share of the family rubber land which is her business!
The money she gets from that paid our living expenses while we were in Issan but even in the good times don,t go far in other parts of Thailand. 
I'm only inquiring on the the price as personally I take most of what they say in the family with a pinch of salt!
Her Mother can not trust the Father so why my wife does is beyond me.
Dave

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## poorfalang

Could you guys help me?

we have about 10 rai, some 12 some 13 years old, me and the missus financed it but the in laws got it planted while we were shitting our selves working in the UK, we tapped the first time, well i did really badly, ugly cuts and so, 
anyway we have stopped for nearly two years, we just not sure what to do with it,

any way my question, 
since we were not here at the time, 
how can i identify the type of tree?
i know they are mixed, some tree look different, even the rubber seems to get a little black in the cup after adding the acid,(just the top of the rubber) must say those trees give a hell of a lot more that other, even they are same size,
cheers

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## Sabaitoo

Very nice Thread, my MIL is in the rubber business, actually it started some 15 years ago as she found a boyfriend from the south who convinced her to plant rubber on some family land. As the MIL in the process also got some additional land, they started up with 60000 trees and added 10 to 15000 trees each year....after 6 years the 10 year younger boyfriend left and she was alone with a mountain of trees.. she had some very good years 2008/9/10 where she used the profit to buy additional land and set up some sa-paper business and some orange plantations... the good years paid for her new house, car and some gold necklaces.. We hardly heard from her all these years in the traditional way, no request for the broken buffalo or the tilted motorbike ..guess the rubber business kept her occupied running up and down the hills doing checks on her tappers and trees..in all these years we never had any request for money or support..(well there was one time we had to bail her out as she got arrested for clearing an additional hillside that did not belong to her, but that she paid us back in full)
She is complaing a bit about rubber in the moment, but keeps the nose over water with all her other stuff...
Now my wife tells me that she may plan to cut the trees if prices dont gets better next year..and that explains me visiting this tread..trying to look at the future of rubber  :Wiggle:

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## jamescollister

PF by the sound of it you probably have 2 types of trees, 600s and 231s. The 251s will have a bigger canopy and produce more rubber, it's usually a darker brown than the 600s. Get the best tapper you can find to open the trees, the others can then follow the original cut.

Sab Think you have one too many zeros in there, if she has that many trees she a millionaire and not a Baht millionaire, but Dollars. 
The price goes up and down, but not one in their right mind cuts down producing trees, it's a meal ticket for life, If she has 6,000 trees she should be earning around 1 mill Baht a year. Jim

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## Sabaitoo

Jim, the figures are correct, though I am not sure if she is on 70 or 90000 in the moment, I was up at the land when they had their first 40000 planted and was waiting for next 20000 to arrive in the beginning of the project.. they bloody cleared a whole side of a mountain, well guess hillside (depending on where you are from) and you are right the MIL is pretty loaded, though after her southern boyfriend left she got 2 of her brother involved so they are 3 to share and feet their parents and whatever uncles too..but she is the primus-motor .her parents have lots of land ( or lots of right to use it..)I dont think she is in the millions of $, but some Baht she has for sure.. some 15 years back we called and told her that we wold be visiting for 3 months and she immediately had the bright idea that we needed a car for the vacation, I figured yeah right, MIL buy a car and let us use it 3 months and also let us pay it..no frigging way..told the wife just tell her no..we will rent a minibus when we need transportation...well as we arrived MIL showed up in the airport with a brand new minibus, let us use it for the 3 months and after gave it to an uncle in BKK, never cost us a bath..during the same vacation we made a visit to a Sa-paper factory in the Nan area where MIL is in on 50%, stayed there around a week..wife mentioned that land was cheap, so we figured we would look around for a little plot , 1 or 2 rai..we looked at several plots and had 3 in mind..in order not to get farang quotes we asked MIL to check out the 3 plots and prices and let us know when we returned some weeks later..end of story..as we returned she had bought all 3 and gave them to my wife... But as we do not visit Thailand often, I only have contact with her every 4-5 years, so is not involved in any of her projects, just get updates from the wife when they phone with each other, but after reading a bit about rubber I will let my wife tell her to leave the trees standing...I will try to dig out some pics of the hillside and trees, know I am curious of what kind of trees she has there

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## nidhogg

> even though the rubber price is not good, it will have to drop a lot lower before I will be handing in the keys to our big black SUV because I can't make the payments. Jim


Hmm.  And yet previously we had:





> Only money I earn comes from rubber trees and it is the end of the dormant season, don't have 20 Baht in my wallet. 
> 
> Only thing that keeps me from going even more insane, is the local shop gives me credit for beer, 6 bottles a night

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## poorfalang

> PF by the sound of it you probably have 2 types of trees, 600s and 231s. The 251s will have a bigger canopy and produce more rubber, it's usually a darker brown than the 600s. Get the best tapper you can find to open the trees, the others can then follow the original cut.


Jim, if i get some really decent pictures in could you have a look at it?

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## Mid

*Phuket News: Spotlight on Thailand's rubber industry*
Naraporn Tuarob
 Sunday 12 May 2013                                                

*PHUKET:* Later this month rubber growers  in Thailand plan to march on Bangkok to highlight the plummenting prices  of rubber despite government effort to shore them up.



To make their point they plan to dump 60,000 tons of state-supplied  fertiliser which they say was of such low quality it could almost be  considered a fake product.

 In contrast, in Phuket recently, big traders met at the three-day  Asean Rubber Conference held at the Hilton Phuket Arcadia Resort and  Spa, at which Thailand launched a bid to become the world centre of the  rubber industry.

 The meeting also heard some controversial proposals for the future of  the rubber industry when the Asean Economic Community (AEC) comes into  being in 2015.

 If the proposals can be made to work, however, they might shore up prices.
 The conference brought together delegates from the 10 Asean  member-countries and the worlds main rubber buyers  China, Japan, and  India.

 Thailands claim to be the hub of the industry is backed up by the  fact that it is the worlds number one rubber producer, with an annual  output of 3.1 million tons, of which as much as 78 per cent is exported.  Less than 12 per cent is used for value-added production in Thailand,  while 10 per cent goes into a government stockpile.

 At the opening of the conference, Yuttapong Charasatien, deputy  minister of Agriculture and Cooperatives told delegates, We are  encouraging government departments to use more products made from  rubber, and we will ask for cooperation among Asean rubber producers to  study the likely effects of the creation of the AEC, the benefits, and  any adjustments that need to be made.

 This year, we expect that the price of rubber will rise  continuously, thanks to the governments First-Car policy and the  improvement in the world economy generally, added to which, the  government has a policy to support domestic rubber and to add value to  raw rubber.

 Dr Pongsak Kerdvongbundit, honorary president of the Thai Rubber  Association and director of Thailands biggest rubber trader, Von Bundit  Co  which is based in Phuket  called for closer cooperation between  rubber producing countries over prices.

 This conference has received support from rubber producers in Asean countries as well as world producers and buyers, he noted.

 There are two reasons for this, he said. First, users expect to pay a  suitable price [without major fluctuations]. Second, Asean countries at  the moment are all competing on price.

 For example, the price of [similar qualities] of rubber grown in  Thailand is about B10 different from the Indonesian price. It is  unnecessary to sell rubber at different prices.

 He also noted that tyre-maker Bridgestone plans to build an aircraft  tyre plant in Thailand and that other companies will begin producing  premium car tyres in Thailand.

 However, the manager of another major Phuket rubber company, told The  Phuket News that any attempt to fix prices across Southeast Asia would  fail.

 Thailand, Malaysia and Indonesia have been doing this since last  October. The main factor in rubber prices is the world economy. Turnover  has dropped, because the Chinese economy is slowing.

 If the demand is not there, we cant sell. How can we set prices so  that they are similar in every country [in Asean]? The currencies are  different, the production costs are different, the costs of living are  different, and the quality of the rubber varies from one country to  another.

 What he would like to see, to make Thai rubber more competitive, is lower taxes.

The Thai government currently levies a sliding-rate tax on exports of rubber.

 Currently, with rubber export prices low, the rate is B0.9 per kilo.  But when the sale price rises above B100 a kilo, the government takes B5  a kilo.
 The manager says this is too high, especially when compared with  neighbouring Malaysia, where the maximum rate is equivalent to B1.4 per  kilo  which used to be the maximum rate in Thailand until the  government bumped up rates in October 2010.

 He also argues that the higher the rate of tax, the more vulnerable the system is to corruption.

 In an attempt to shore up rubber prices, the government buys 10 per  cent of all rubber produced in Thailand and stockpiles it. Yet despite  this, world rubber prices are now about B70 a kilo for rubber sheet,  less than half the price it fetched in February 2011.

 The manager said he felt the government should, instead, be  concentrating on reducing exports of raw rubber by promoting the making  of value-added products in Thailand, such as tyres, rubber gloves,  hoses, condoms and so on.

 He believes that 30 to 40 per cent of rubber produced in Thailand  should be used to this end, compared with the current 12 per cent.

thephuketnews.com

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## Norton

> It is unnecessary to sell rubber at different prices.”


Shades of OPEC. Sounds good until a non OPEC country producer sells and gains market share via lower than fixed price of a cartel.

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## Gravesend Dave

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
>  even though the rubber price is not good, it will have to drop a lot lower before I will be handing in the keys to our big black SUV because I can't make the payments. Jim
> 
> 
> Hmm.  And yet previously we had:
> 
> 
> ...


That a good point,one that had me wondering but let it lie as I don,t want to be seen as questioning almost everything he posts.

Sure he got an answer for that though hogg :Smile:

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## IsaanAussie

Well I have, or at least will offer one. Some few years ago things were different here. Few people had money, most had debts. A farang wallet was a prized catch. Many of us saw that a good strategic investment with family and local support was a wise thing to do. Today, that is all very nice but an asset that relies of labour input is of little value if no-one wants to do a days work!

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## Gravesend Dave

> Well I have, or at least will offer one. Some few years ago things were different here. Few people had money, most had debts. A farang wallet was a prized catch. Many of us saw that a good strategic investment with family and local support was a wise thing to do. Today, that is all very nice but an asset that relies of labour input is of little value if no-one wants to do a days work!


The village where I stayed can not be that much different to what you and Jim describe!

Granted there are many that want to sit on there arse and do SFA especially if poncing is in there blood :Smile: 

Rubber tapping is easy but boring graft which not many Thais turn their nose up at.
Truth be known many that would leave to find labour in the building game see rubber as by far the better work choice,if they can get it. 

How many business do you know that pay their workers 40% of the profit?
It sounds more like a walk in no out lay partnership to me.

The Thai workers are the winners and when they feel that the price is not worth their while tapping they just don,t bother,no big deal to them.

The falang however will have invested in the land to start,if that means planting saplings depending on his age he will be lucky to even see the money shelled out come back.

Its a shit job but if I had the choice I would chose to work for someone every time over being the falang boss!

So back to what Jim has quoted,one minute I have hardly a pot to piss in then all of a sudden there no way I need to hand them keys back.

Good luck to the man but needing a tab in a Issan shack of a shop,do me a favour!!!

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## jamescollister

OK lets see if I can clear up a few things about rubber, we have around  100 rai, how many trees I don't know, but over 6,000. Most on line now,  but opened another 400 this season. Last Novermber [best month ] we  produced 4,200 kilos of rubber, this season we should break the 5,000  month. Today's price is 85 Baht a kilo for sheet. we are not back to  sheet yet due to rain. So you can figure out for yourself return.

As to a tab at the corner shop, it's the way it's done here, no ATMs or  credit cards, cash or credit. We have no mortgage or rent, no water  bills or rates and pay no taxes on our rubber, factory is a different  matter. I think I earn more in expendable income here than when we lived  in OZ. Sure prices go up and down, but the world has been in a slump  since 2009 and the trend is up. Does anyone think that going to work in  the west for the man is a better choice. I definitely think being my own boss and a 24/7 dad is a better option. Not a life for most, but I like it.

I am on You Tube and have a blog, if anyone is interested. Jim

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## piwanoi

Jim , A guy who appears to know quite a bit about Rubber as he 60 rai of producing trees told me a couple of days ago  its takes 2 and a half Kilo's of raw latex to make 1 Kilo of sheet is this correct? :Smile:

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## jamescollister

> Jim , A guy who appears to know quite a bit about Rubber as he 60 rai of producing trees told me a couple of days ago  its takes 2 and a half Kilo's of raw latex to make 1 Kilo of sheet is this correct?


Different trees produce different rubber contain latex, ours run around 34%. so 3 liters of latex for a 1 kilo sheet. So Think the guy has his numbers a bit out as 3 liters of water would weigh 3 kilos. Jim

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## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by piwanoi
> 
> 
> Jim , A guy who appears to know quite a bit about Rubber as he 60 rai of producing trees told me a couple of days ago  its takes 2 and a half Kilo's of raw latex to make 1 Kilo of sheet is this correct?
> 
> 
> Different trees produce different rubber contain latex, ours run around 34%. so 3 liters of latex for a 1 kilo sheet. So Think the guy has his numbers a bit out as 3 liters of water would weigh 3 kilos. Jim


 Cheers for that Jim ,the guy appears to be doing OK enough with his rubber he informs me in spite of the depressed price .

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## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by piwanoi
> ...


If he's Thai he is doing better than alright, you have to remember most rural Thais can live on almost nothing in the form of cash. He would be making cash every week. Only payments will be the big pickup truck. Think of it this way, minimum wage here is 300 Baht and people can live, he will be making at least 10 times that. 
There are a lot of people in the west who earn less and still have to pay rent and bills. Jim

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## Pragmatic

I thought this a very informative read on getting a return on rubber trees.What is the financial return on a rubber tree farm in Thailand?

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## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by piwanoi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by jamescollister
> ...


 Nah Jim he's English .but lived here for donkeys years and got in when land was a hell of a lot cheaper than it is nowadays .

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## jamescollister

Same same here, I could never afford to be starting now, everything is just to expensive now. 
Good read the link, fairly accurate. Jim

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## Gravesend Dave

> Same same here, I could never afford to be starting now, everything is just to expensive now. 
> Good read the link, fairly accurate. Jim


So the bottom line is then Jim rubber is not worth two bob to be getting into now!

You forget to mention that those that have bought land which is Sor bor Gor Government land, where a little Tax is paid by a Thai national to farm it have bought no   more than a lease business!

Good luck to who ever throws money into this business and to those that are already there.

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## Pragmatic

> Good luck to who ever throws money into this business and to those that are already there.


I concur. I try to understand as to why a farang comes to Thailand and overnight becomes a farmer. Would he take up farming so easily in his own country? My take on this is that the farang has money in their homeland. The 'teelak' doesn't want this as it will prove difficult and costly to access in the event of his death. Therefore the teelak comes up with the great idea of buying land as a way of making money. She herself has never farmed before and has no business sense what so ever. But that doesn't matter. Making money isn't the major factor here. It's getting her partner to bring all his assets over here and put into her name. Job done. You die and she lives happy ever after. No problems.
Okay, there may be exceptions to the above but in general that's how I see things on the ground around where I live.  ::spin::

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## piwanoi

^ A very very shrewd assessment of how it really is ! ,My Compliments  :Smile:  I know quite a lot of elderly "Newcomers" who have suddenly become "farmers" ,sorry, but I could make a hell of a lot more in the UK than I ever could here, so being an "horny handed " son of the soil is just not for me , I have 3 grown up kids back there in the UK who have done well for themselves ,and if possible I would like them to have a bit of my estate when I finally croke , I am often asked If I am not bored ,of which I always reply the same better to be bored than on Valium worried to death about were all my hard eared dough has gone ,of course there are success story,s like Jim and a few others I know here in my area ,but I have heard a lot more that would bring tears to a glass eye  :Smile:

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## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> Same same here, I could never afford to be starting now, everything is just to expensive now. 
> Good read the link, fairly accurate. Jim
> 
> 
> So the bottom line is then Jim rubber is not worth two bob to be getting into now!
> 
> ...


No I am not saying that it is not worth getting into now, just that I couldn't afford to start up now. Like most farming the big players are moving in or trying to move in. Goodyear in Cambodia  10,000 hectares etc We get BKK Thai/ Chinese families out here looking to buy plantations and they are willing to pay big bucks. They look at things as long term investments, just as people in the west invest in pension schemes.
Where most go wrong, is they believe you can just send money and all will be good, you can't do that anywhere in this world. If you want to farm or run any business, you have to be all in and hands on, or it will crash.

On the land title thing, all land in Thailand is to become charnote. Part of a land reform project brought about by the IMF. The alleged reason is that small farmers will be able to use the land as collateral with the banks to by farm equipment etc. Real reason will be that big business can buy up all the small farms, just as has happened in many western countries. Get the people off their land and into the factories where they belong.

You can not do farming or any other business in Thailand unless you are committed, you have to go in boots and all, no jumping on a plane home at the first sign of trouble. If you have nothing to go back to, you have to make it work.

I know of only one other farang that lives here and makes his living from farming. All the others are hobby farmers and can just walk away, which often happens. Jim

----------


## Gravesend Dave

> Originally Posted by Gravesend Dave
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by jamescollister
> ...


Jim as far as I am aware if land has a Sor Bor Gor Title its government land where a yearly tax is paid.
My wife,s family has this land mostly,there is already a bank for farmers operating( Tor Gor Sor is the bank name,don,t quote the spelling )that loans farmer with this land.


I have no personal interest in this land so have not looked into any future government plans.
It would be a massive surprise to me to learn that the government is going to change this land to chanote titles.
Basically giving everyone concerned a big pay day should they chose to sell,and loosing all the yearly tax they claim.

I do know for sure that if a Thai has land with no title but the land is known to be theirs,they can go through the process to obtain Chanote title.

Land such as this can be a very good buy for your Thai partners
Dave :Smile:

----------


## jamescollister

GD, sure if you did a Google search you could find the land reform thing, the whole country is to be surveyed, big job. They haven't got this far out yet and it maybe 10 years before they get here, but they did the main road 2248 about 4 years ago and charnotes were issued. Didn't make any difference what the land title was prior, they only wanted to know who owned [used ] the land, confirmed by the village head or whoever was the boss of the area. 
You still have to pay the land tax, no escaping tax, and if you sell before a certain number of years you get hit with capital gains tax. Our factory was no title land and we applied and got it zoned national industrial title, the charnote was issued when the main road was done. Jim

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## ltnt

^In order to obtain the Chanote, the land in question must be surveyed, registered at the land office and then the village, heads must look at the property and approve its surveyed boundaries.  Meaning no other lands, personal or governmental are being encroached upon.

I have done mine and am waiting for the village heads to do the walk through process.  This can be months in the waiting as getting all parties together is a chore and they like to do more than one registration at a time.  Its not a "will call," visit.  Guys busy as heck.

My survey turned out that my land was greater than stated on the original title and therefore receives greater scrutiny.  I've been told by the government office in Chaing Rai that I can feel free to commence building regardless of not having the official Chanote title.  The visit is simply custom or part of the governments protocol.

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## Gravesend Dave

> GD, sure if you did a Google search you could find the land reform thing, the whole country is to be surveyed, big job. They haven't got this far out yet and it maybe 10 years before they get here, but they did the main road 2248 about 4 years ago and charnotes were issued. Didn't make any difference what the land title was prior, they only wanted to know who owned [used ] the land, confirmed by the village head or whoever was the boss of the area. 
> You still have to pay the land tax, no escaping tax, and if you sell before a certain number of years you get hit with capital gains tax. Our factory was no title land and we applied and got it zoned national industrial title, the charnote was issued when the main road was done. Jim


Like I have mentioned I have no interest in this type of land.
I am only quoting what I have learnt from the local government officials in Sang Khom 
However I did have a little look on google and was only able to find information about community titles.
It was only a five minute search so if you have a better link Jim rather than just say google I will take another look.
Dave

----------


## Gravesend Dave

> ^In order to obtain the Chanote, the land in question must be surveyed, registered at the land office and then the village, heads must look at the property and approve its surveyed boundaries.  Meaning no other lands, personal or governmental are being encroached upon.
> 
> I have done mine and am waiting for the village heads to do the walk through process.  This can be months in the waiting as getting all parties together is a chore and they like to do more than one registration at a time.  Its not a "will call," visit.  Guys busy as heck.
> 
> My survey turned out that my land was greater than stated on the original title and therefore receives greater scrutiny.  I've been told by the government office in Chaing Rai that I can feel free to commence building regardless of not having the official Chanote title.  The visit is simply custom or part of the governments protocol.


To obtain a Chanote on land it has to be either non title or have a title which can be changed,example would be Nor Sor Sam or land that has never been registered.


Yes the government people do come out and do the survey,and then you wait for the paperwork.
As far as the village head being involved he was not needed.He was needed to sign and witness the sale agreement only when the wife bought the land from the original owner as there was non title. 


To be honest I got pissed off with looking at land where the owners claimed it was easy to obtain a Chanote,or no problem with this and that.
The local land office gave me all the information needed to walk away from what looked like lovely plots.

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## jamescollister

GD not much of a computer person and have a dongle which only works some times. We have had no electricity for the last 2 nights after 2000 hours and stinking hot, but found this it may find what you are looking for.


info.worldbank.org/.../*Thai*%20*Land*%20Titling%20Full%20Case.pdf

Many charnotes are being issued on what was once crown land, it will take years to cover the whole country. I paid to have provincial title surveyed for charnote and was told it may be 10 years before it gets issued and that was with the help of the Governor of Ubon. Things just take time here, if you own it and use it, in the end you will own it. Jim

----------


## Gravesend Dave

> GD not much of a computer person and have a dongle which only works some times. We have had no electricity for the last 2 nights after 2000 hours and stinking hot, but found this it may find what you are looking for.
> 
> 
> info.worldbank.org/.../*Thai*%20*Land*%20Titling%20Full%20Case.pdf
> 
> Many charnotes are being issued on what was once crown land, it will take years to cover the whole country. I paid to have provincial title surveyed for charnote and was told it may be 10 years before it gets issued and that was with the help of the Governor of Ubon. Things just take time here, if you own it and use it, in the end you will own it. Jim


Jim I to am not much of a computer man!

I'm not actually trying to make myself wrong,what I know has come straight from the horses mouth.
I thought maybe you might just post a straight forward click on link.
Are you going to?

If you have paid to have survey,s done and have been told it take ten years!!! to get issued I smell a rat.

Listen sorry but you are sounding very naive now,how much did you pay?
We paid to speed up the process of getting a bod out to do the survey on our land,as it could of been years before they were in the area to do it.

Granted it can be anywhere from a couple to several months to get Chanote paperwork.
You saying you have shelled out and the survey has been done,just to be clear.

If you have paid out for land with the title of Sor Bor Gor you will never legally own that land.
At some point your wife might pass it on or sell for you to another Thai which is common with them,but the name on the title will not change.
Its complicated shit which does lead to many Thai fall outs.
Its not uncommon for land like this to pass hands only then to be disputed by other family members.
Dave

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## Pragmatic

> If you have paid out for land with the title of Sor Bor Gor you will never legally own that land.


Sor Por Gor (Kor) is only transferable in name upon the death of the title holder. Then it must be transferred into another family members name. This is causing much problems in Thailand in that land is being sold off. The new owner thinks they rightfully own the land. Upon the death of the original title holder, who's name still appears on the title paper, family members then come forward and contest the sale. It then ends up in a court of law taking years and many Bahts to sort out. 
As for Chanote title being issued to Sor Por Kor . I was told 7 years ago that all Sor Por Gor (Kor) land will be altered inside 10 years to Chanote. Thais are dreamers. Where I live they think that if they say they are communists they will get free land or 300,000 Baht. They've been flocking to pay to become registered members of the Communist Party. I'd say 95% don't even know what the Communist Party is. But that doesn't matter as long as they get the land or money. Dumb fcukers.

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## jamescollister

Think if you read my post I said Provincial title,                                                                                                                     *Nor Sor 3*



                          The difference between this  type of land title deed and the Nor Sor 3 Gor is that a land with Nor  Sor 3 title has never yet been measured by the Land Department; hence  the land has no exact boundaries. However, the Nor Sor 3 title may later  be switched to a Nor Sor 3 Gor, then furthermore, transform that title  to a freehold title deed (Chanote) in the future.Jim

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## Pragmatic

I was responding to Gravesend Dave. :Smile:

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## Gravesend Dave

> Originally Posted by Gravesend Dave
> 
> If you have paid out for land with the title of Sor Bor Gor you will never legally own that land.
> 
> 
> Sor Por Gor (Kor) is only transferable in name upon the death of the title holder. Then it must be transferred into another family members name. This is causing much problems in Thailand in that land is being sold off. The new owner thinks they rightfully own the land. Upon the death of the original title holder, who's name still appears on the title paper, family members then come forward and contest the sale. It then ends up in a court of law taking years and many Bahts to sort out. 
> As for Chanote title being issued to Sor Por Kor . I was told 7 years ago that all Sor Por Gor (Kor) land will be altered inside 10 years to Chanote. Thais are dreamers. Where I live they think that if they say they are communists they will get free land or 300,000 Baht. They've been flocking to pay to become registered members of the Communist Party. I'd say 95% don't even know what the Communist Party is. But that doesn't matter as long as they get the land or money. Dumb fcukers.


Yes that is a major problem a falang could encounter by buying this land,a family member claiming what is on paper his right.

They stitch each other up let right and center!

I have read something about community Titles being issued but don,t see how that is of benefit for the invester

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## jamescollister

> I was responding to Gravesend Dave.


 So was I. Jim

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## Gravesend Dave

> Think if you read my post I said Provincial title,                                                                                                                     *Nor Sor 3*
> 
> 
> 
>                           The difference between this  type of land title deed and the Nor Sor 3 Gor is that a land with Nor  Sor 3 title has never yet been measured by the Land Department; hence  the land has no exact boundaries. However, the Nor Sor 3 title may later  be switched to a Nor Sor 3 Gor, then furthermore, transform that title  to a freehold title deed (Chanote) in the future.Jim


Post 88 Jim did you not say it does not matter what title the land was prior!!!

I do like a bit of discussion and like to learn from others,but with post it seems to be just going round in circles.

Best of luck Jim

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## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by jamescollister
> 
> 
> Think if you read my post I said Provincial title,                                                                                                                     *Nor Sor 3*
> 
> 
> 
>                           The difference between this  type of land title deed and the Nor Sor 3 Gor is that a land with Nor  Sor 3 title has never yet been measured by the Land Department; hence  the land has no exact boundaries. However, the Nor Sor 3 title may later  be switched to a Nor Sor 3 Gor, then furthermore, transform that title  to a freehold title deed (Chanote) in the future.Jim
> 
> ...


OK will try and clear it up. All land in Thailand is to be surveyed and  charnotes issued, but you can't go and pay to get it done, they are  working area by area. As said they came down the 2248 road and surveyed  both sides and issued charnotes including the villages on the road. 

Now  with Nor Sor 3 land it is a freehold issued by the Province, but the  borders are draw on a map , not surveyed. You can pay for the survey and  submit the report to the charnote people, they will then up grade the  title to full charnote. There is no time set for the charnote to be  issued, you just have to wait and I was told you can wait up to 10  years. Makes little difference to the value as the land is already  freehold, the survey pegs are in, you just don't have the bit of paper  yet. Jim

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## Gravesend Dave

> Originally Posted by Gravesend Dave
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by jamescollister
> ...


Sorry Jim but I think you tend to get your information a bit mixed up!
It does get a bit inconsistent to say the least. 

My wife has taken a little interest in this thread.

She is 100% sure you have made a mistake as regards to having to wait up to ten years for Chanote paperwork after your survey has been done.
She thinks you may have been cheated if you have been told this.

Come on mate the Thais are notoriously slow but not to that extent!

Pay for the bods to come to our land was exactly what we done,not the official way but it can be done.
I know Jim I shelled out the dough,seemed the best way to go than wait 2 years which was the predicted time the land office told the wife they would be coming to the village.

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## jamescollister

No scam, there are no charnote titles out here except for the main highway, our land is miles away in the jungle and no charnote will be issued until the area becomes approved for charnote issuing. They are not saying it takes 10 years to do the paper work, they are saying the area has no been approved for charnote issue yet. When the area falls under the charnote people [ land dept ] control the charnote will be issued. At this time the land falls under Ubon province not the land department. The land department can not issue titles on land they do not control, yet. Jim

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## ltnt

> The difference between this type of land title deed and the Nor Sor 3 Gor is that a land with Nor Sor 3 title has never yet been measured by the Land Department; hence the land has no exact boundaries. However, the Nor Sor 3 title may later be switched to a Nor Sor 3 Gor, then furthermore, transform that title to a freehold title deed (Chanote) in the future.Jim


Which is exactly as I have done.  As noted the land was never surveyed for the original title and when the survey was finally performed the land turned out to be significantly larger than the 4 rai estimate.

All has been processed through the land title department, registered in my wife's name, put on the governments computer files and photo records of all titles surveyed and registered.

The village head men I am told will still need to visit the property and agree that the new owner is a qualified "local," and that the land does not infringe on government or other peoples land rights.  They also want to know your intentions with this land.  No commercial operations are allowed by this community.

I'm sure it differs from location and closeness of the local community members and leaders.

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## ltnt

> She is 100% sure you have made a mistake as regards to having to wait up to ten years for Chanote paperwork after your survey has been done. She thinks you may have been cheated if you have been told this.


As Jim says, "just a figure of speech 10 years."  I have all my paperwork completed, and now as I stated in the previous post, wait for the Chanote document.

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## jamescollister

GD have a Google search   Thailand world bank land reform    Lots of nice big PDF reports and files, hours of fun reading. Jim

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## Gravesend Dave

Jim I will give that a miss thanks,no disrespect but you change your posts to fit your answers!

You have been inconsistent in this thread with your information!  

I have just adding to this thread with my view of the rubber business as I have see it in Thailand.The land title has come into it and again I have quoted what I know,having gone through the Chanote process and educated myself about land titles I am happy with what I know.

Good luck with your business!

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## jamescollister

> Jim I will give that a miss thanks,no disrespect but you change your posts to fit your answers!
> 
> You have been inconsistent in this thread with your information!  
> 
> I have just adding to this thread with my view of the rubber business as I have see it in Thailand.The land title has come into it and again I have quoted what I know,having gone through the Chanote process and educated myself about land titles I am happy with what I know.
> 
> Good luck with your business!


What are you talking about, what inconsistency, I don't take advice from my wife, but one of the biggest business accountancy firms in Ubon. If you had bothered to have a look you would have found we have a Limited partnership rubber company, 10 rai of industrial nationally zoned land with an open rubber license [ no longer issued ] paper value over 1 mil US, 100 rai of rubber, which puts us in the top 3 percent of rubber producers in Thailand.

This is no game for me, I didn't come for a long holiday and think I know it all. I came to make a life for me the wife and kids. We live in a 6 bedroom house have 4 cars and travel to OZ once a year, all paid for by rubber. Think I know a bit more about the subject than most.

Which Uni did your wife attend to gain all this knowledge, mine knows nothing, but went to Uni near BKK and  Uni in Australia. 

Google is your friend, try looking, laws an protocols are all there, as am I. Jim

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## piwanoi

Well Jim  to be quite candid reading the exchanges between you and Dave ,plus the valued input from Pragmatic ,makes me kinda glad I made my pile long long before I came here to live the "easy life" in Thailand,and with the3 % interest on my substantial savings plus my pensions quite frankly whatever the price of commodities over here has very little bearing on my financial future ,but of course it goes without saying that those who choose to make their living here in spite of all the pitfalls , the very best of luck ,but sorry its just not for me cos I have no worry's, and  I have air con and can sleep even in the hottest night with a power cut being a rare occurrence   :Smile:

----------


## jamescollister

> Well Jim  to be quite candid reading the exchanges between you and Dave ,plus the valued input from Pragmatic ,makes me kinda glad I made my pile long long before I came here to live the "easy life" in Thailand,and with the3 % interest on my substantial savings plus my pensions quite frankly whatever the price of commodities over here has very little bearing on my financial future ,but of course it goes without saying that those who choose to make their living here in spite of all the pitfalls , the very best of luck ,but sorry its just not for me cos I have no worry's, and  I have air con and can sleep even in the hottest night with a power cut being a rare occurrence


I just like taking it to the limit, never lived a safe life always like pushing the boundary. Done and seen thinks most only dream  probably should have died years ago. Only thing that slows me down now is 2 small kids, don't want to leave them without a dad. Yet still I will go into the jungle were bandits, drug smuggles and poaches hide, all by myself. This year I hope to do a few rivers that have never been navigated. 

Wife and kids have enough  here that they will never be short, their future is secure, as well as can be in this world. If I died tomorrow, they would be sad no doubt, but I would rather die in the jungles of the Emerald Triangle or canoeing an unexplored river, or the moutains of Brtish Culombia or the outback of Australia, Than some hospital bed.

Just me and maybe I'm mad, take it to the limit one more time, before I am too old to push the envelope. Jim

----------


## Gravesend Dave

> Originally Posted by Gravesend Dave
> 
> 
> Jim I will give that a miss thanks,no disrespect but you change your posts to fit your answers!
> 
> You have been inconsistent in this thread with your information!  
> 
> I have just adding to this thread with my view of the rubber business as I have see it in Thailand.The land title has come into it and again I have quoted what I know,having gone through the Chanote process and educated myself about land titles I am happy with what I know.
> 
> ...


Jim I have been very diplomatic in my replies to you.

As I have said you seem to just change one post to suit the next!

My wife did not go to Uni and neither did I.
Sounds like a big boast from you which if its true was a waste of fucking time.
One minute you got a slate at the village shop for a six pack,now you have four motors and so on!

Rubber farming on the scale you talk about is the game of what where piss poor pheasants!!
Its very simple to set up and run a rubber farm with very limited skill needed.
Patients sitting around waiting for trees to grow,something Thais have no problem with.

I gained my knowledge from making injuries at the local land office through my wife.
You seem to know more than them,but I;m fucked if I would listen to what you say over their advice.
What she knows is based on family business which I guess goes back a bit further than your limited falang knowledge.

Her uncle was one of the first to plant rubber which was subsidized by the government as a viable crop to help impoverished farmers.

His success was soon followed by the rest of the family and any one in the village with spare land for trees.

They have made good money for sure but not one person in that village, has been told all their land is going to be made Chanote!!.
Not all but most plantation deals in that and the surrounding villages are signed deals on Sor Bor Gor title.
Deals that do and can go very pearshaped!


Your first view on land title and rubber business was,that as long as you used it no one would take it off you.
Title was not an issue for you,it was all about the business.

That started to change as the thread went on and continued to be changed. 

In a nut shell Jim I think you are either full of shit or very confused.

Every Thread you post on you usually add the I'm on You Tube take a look Rubber is how I earn my living in Issan.

How many hits do you need

When I first came here about a year and half ago I took a look!
I knew very little apart from wondering around her father rubber farm.

Thanks Jim you taught me S.F.A!

----------


## Aberlour

> Its very simple to set up and run a rubber farm with very limited skill needed.


Big difference between talking and doing. Come back to the thread when you have tried the latter.

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## Gravesend Dave

> Originally Posted by piwanoi
> 
> 
> Well Jim  to be quite candid reading the exchanges between you and Dave ,plus the valued input from Pragmatic ,makes me kinda glad I made my pile long long before I came here to live the "easy life" in Thailand,and with the3 % interest on my substantial savings plus my pensions quite frankly whatever the price of commodities over here has very little bearing on my financial future ,but of course it goes without saying that those who choose to make their living here in spite of all the pitfalls , the very best of luck ,but sorry its just not for me cos I have no worry's, and  I have air con and can sleep even in the hottest night with a power cut being a rare occurrence  
> 
> 
> I just like taking it to the limit, never lived a safe life always like pushing the boundary. Done and seen thinks most only dream  probably should have died years ago. Only thing that slows me down now is 2 small kids, don't want to leave them without a dad. Yet still I will go into the jungle were bandits, drug smuggles and poaches hide, all by myself. This year I hope to do a few rivers that have never been navigated. 
> 
> Wife and kids have enough  here that they will never be short, their future is secure, as well as can be in this world. If I died tomorrow, they would be sad no doubt, but I would rather die in the jungles of the Emerald Triangle or canoeing an unexplored river, or the moutains of Brtish Culombia or the outback of Australia, Than some hospital bed.
> ...


Jim you don,t look like you could push a fucking wheelbarrow!,push the envelope leave it out.
Are you not just another retied Australian Policeman,that must have been a safe enough life pay cheque every month.
So you have never lived a safe life!!

Bandits, Drug smuggles and you all alone in the jungle!

I did state that I think you are either full of shit or get confused,got to stick with the full of shit now!!!!!

I would give you poaches no problem,every cnvt and his cousin is at it!

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## Aberlour

^ Your rants wreak of jealousy Dave.

JC has made a huge success of his life, and you have done..................?

He has never been anything but helpful, informative and interesting when it comes to rubber IMO.

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## Gravesend Dave

> ^ Your rants wreak of jealousy Dave.
> 
> JC has made a huge success of his life, and you have done..................?
> 
> He has never been anything but helpful, informative and interesting when it comes to rubber IMO.


You are one  weird fucking clown!

Why are you adding anything to this thread after how many pages have passed.

Have you assigned yourself the job of my personal Mod in your sad world!
I am aware like most that you are not playing with a full deck so Fuck Off!!

----------


## Aberlour

^ I follow Jamescollister's posts with interest. I find it hilarious that of all people on here you could even manage to pick a fight with him.

He clearly knows a huge amount about rubber and you clearly know jack. You attack him personally, *"you don,t look like you could push a fucking wheelbarrow!"* for what reason?

If you had any hope of ever making a go of a rubber farm you needed to listen and learn from people like him. Never mind.

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## Gravesend Dave

> ^ I follow Jamescollister's posts with interest. I find it hilarious that of all people on here you could even manage to pick a fight with him.
> 
> He clearly knows a huge amount about rubber and you clearly know jack. You attack him personally, *"you don,t look like you could push a fucking wheelbarrow!"* for what reason?
> 
> If you had any hope of ever making a go of a rubber farm you needed to listen and learn from people like him. Never mind.


Your jumping on yet another band wagon like a friendless kid who ass licks to make friends.

You follow Jims Posts, well where has your input been, stupid question!!
Those that have been following( obvious you are not included ) the thread might agree that its been debatable,as in people seeking answers to questions.

I do not use the forum to pick fights,that is part of your child,s play and your way of thinking. 

If you read the whole thread or even fucking Google you might see there is not a great deal to learn about rubber.

The main point to start was if there is money in the game and then onto your title rights of the land!

Something I will bet my bollocks you could not quote on!.

We have a small rubber farm and the wife gets a bit from her fathers.
I could learn nothing from Jim.

The quote I made as in Jim you don,t look like you could push a fucking wheelbarrow,was made due to the fact I have seen the man on You Tube!

Unlike you Abertwat I only state what I know to be right or in this case based on the image I viewed.

Where,s your thread about Bandits and Drug Smugglers that bollocks sounds right up your street!!

You come across as a complete fucking moron on this forum to me!!
Sure in person your a nice mature feller,we should meet for a beer :Smile:

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## jamescollister

Dave, looks like you are having a bad time, what happened came to Thailand with big plans and failed, Had to return to a crap job, or the dole.

By the way I am not retired, no pension, too young when I came here, and what Thai farmers know about rubber wouldn't fill a tea cup.

You may want to have a look at the other forum, farming section, those in the Udon Thani area are having their lands converted to charnote now. 

All I have posted can be verified on the net, perhaps read before you post, my name and profile are there, I'm not hiding behind an avatar. Jim

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## jamescollister

Here Dave have a read of the Government policy.


*ASSETS CAPITALIZATION: BRIDGING LAND TO THE CAPITAL MARKETS 2*
  One of the main drivers of the assets capitalization policy is the recognition that a sizeable stock of assets, particularly those held by lower-income and the  poverty-stricken groups, cannot be capitalized. The combination of  constraints, ranging from the questionable legitimacy of claims, the risk factors and  the high costs for administering loans to large number of loan applicants, has resulted in differential costs of capital for  the marginalized social and economic groups, thereby placing them in even more disadvantaged positions. Moreover, the fact that those assets cannot be used to access capital amounts to saying that the value of assets in question is  limited to only its use value, thus restricting the ability to maximize  the potential economic rent.
  The launching of this policy is based on two basic assumptions. First, while the poor do  have assets, operational channels for the poor to access capital are  currently limited. Second, creating access to capital can be a modality for  unleashing the productive capacity of the poor, thereby helping them to escape the poverty trap. The policy intervention is designed to create that access to capital by  formalizing lesser forms of property rights used by the marginalized economic groups in the rural  sector, as well as their urban poor counterparts in the so-called informal  sector of the economy. A precondition for bridging these small and  informal economies to the capital markets will be the registration of those assets as a step towards creating values from them.
  The existence of accurate data and information, both in terms of registration records and maps, is of critical importance, and is seen as a precondition to gaining access to formal sources of credit. In launching the policy, many of the factors and basic information appear to be unknown, such as: what is the stock of land under public agencies; what are the legal properties and how do they affect price and the capitalization process; and what is the land value, and to what extent do such values determine access to the formal capital market?
  Regarding the first two objectives, in estimating the stock of public land that is under the responsibility  of various public agencies in Thailand, the five basic questions are:  (i) how much land is under the jurisdiction of the various public agencies; (ii) the size and the location of land; (iii) the current status of land use; (iv) whether land is legally occupied through formal  permission of the agencies responsible or leased out, or whether land is illegally occupied through encroachment; and (v) the market values of various types of land documents. One of the difficulties of estimating the total stock of public land is that although each public agency has been and still is  responsible for compiling and updating their land database, there is no  single agency that compiles and combines the data. In most cases, there is no established access to land data even among the public institutions themselves. Thus, more often than not,  there is heavy reliance on informal and personal channels.
  As the key agency at the policy level to oversee the implementation of this policy, the  immediate concern of the ACB is to expedite the process of registration of land rights, contracts and various types of permits on assets, as  well as verification of the authenticity of such documents.  To minimize  both time and expense by being able to focus efforts on what is really  essential, it was decided that it would be a more practical start for the agencies  in charge of the land assets covered by the policy and the financial institutions to work out what critical information would be needed. The agencies directly responsible, together with the public financial institutions, will be responsible for improving and converting the existing database into computerized information that can be shared. The ACB will work with the Ministry of Information Technology and Communication to design a central data System, which

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## Gravesend Dave

> Dave, looks like you are having a bad time, what happened came to Thailand with big plans and failed, Had to return to a crap job, or the dole.
> 
> By the way I am not retired, no pension, too young when I came here, and what Thai farmers know about rubber wouldn't fill a tea cup.
> 
> You may want to have a look at the other forum, farming section, those in the Udon Thani area are having their lands converted to charnote now. 
> 
> All I have posted can be verified on the net, perhaps read before you post, my name and profile are there, I'm not hiding behind an avatar. Jim


No Jim I came to Thailand to escape the Rat race with no big plan as such!
We did( or rather the wife ) plan to invest in between 15 to 20 rai of rubber.
As I mention after much advise from the land office we only bought 5 rais as that was the only land viewed with a legitimate title.
We did view one other plot which was not bad( 21 rai )but the mans price was twice that of what I valued it.

We have a stunning plot of land to live on,however I did make the mistake of buying to close to the wife,s family!.
Buying and selling land was never in my thoughts but is now.
Lets just say me ( Mainly her father ) and them have our differences.

Some might what to point a finger and say I have failed,in my eyes I made a mistake and moved on.

I did return to the U.K for a very short stay but not to a crap job or the dole!
I'm not a rich man but don,t need the dole,my job was their to walk back into but I never would.
For now I am back in Thailand what my future here will be I don,t know,but do know I have no intention of investing in more rubber land!.

What Thai farmers know about rubber wouldn't fill a tea cup!
You might have this view but my view there,s not a great deal to learn about the game!
Thais have been at it for far far longer than you and farming in their own country,sure you the falang have turned up educated every cnvt and are know now as the King Pin in Rubber. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

It would seem many things can be verified on the net!
It would be an easy world if everything you read on there married up with what is actually reality.
I have posted on personal experience of getting knowledge straight from the horses mouth!.

I gave a view and asked questions when facts where stated that appeared incorrect.
Like I said your posts have been inconsistent as far as I'm concerned.

Watch out for them Bandits Jim!! the real one,s I doubt you would spot!,most live in Udon only monkeies live in the jungle.
All the best Dave

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## Gravesend Dave

Thanks Jim yes interesting!

Sorry could not find the bit that says Land with the Title Sor Bor Gor will be changed to Chanote!

I have viewed some offer information which focuses on village community titles being issued,but again no specific information on changing existing title Sor Bor Gor.

That title is the one I would have no interest in and as far as I am aware at present is not legal to sell (Thais do of course ).
Its government land allocated to poor farmers which is passed down the family. 
Dave

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## Pragmatic

> Thanks Jim yes interesting!
> 
> 
> 
> That title is the one I would have no interest in and as far as I am aware at present is not legal to sell (Thais do of course ).
> Its government land allocated to poor farmers which is passed down the family. 
> Dave


I believe 20 Rai person, or 50 Rai per family, is all that can be owned legally.

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## Pragmatic

> JC has made a huge success of his life


It wasn't a few post back where he says he hadn't got 2 Baht to rub together, or words to that effect, I wouldn't count that as "a huge success".

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## Gravesend Dave

> Originally Posted by Gravesend Dave
> 
> 
> Thanks Jim yes interesting!
> 
> 
> 
> That title is the one I would have no interest in and as far as I am aware at present is not legal to sell (Thais do of course ).
> Its government land allocated to poor farmers which is passed down the family. 
> ...


I can,t really quote as I don,t know!

The wife,s Uncle from the fathers side has about 600 rai with his partner,just built a factory.
When I first came to live in Thailand he arrived back in the village about 5 months after.
Been grafting in New Zealand for thirteen years sending his dough back for the family to by rubber land.


The wife has just told me she thinks that you could partly be right as she did here about a law stating 20 to 30 rai per owner.

The uncle in question has put his land in various family names.

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## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by Gravesend Dave
> 
> 
> Thanks Jim yes interesting!
> 
> 
> 
> That title is the one I would have no interest in and as far as I am aware at present is not legal to sell (Thais do of course ).
> Its government land allocated to poor farmers which is passed down the family. 
> ...


That's correct for low title land,
Dave there are dozens of land titles here, that's what the whole land reform thing is about. You keep on about one type, issued under one Government department, titles are issued by villages, Amphores, tessabans, districts, provinces and maybe 4 or 5 National Government Departments and off course plain old possession land, no title at all.

This national survey started over 10 years ago, mainly in the BKK area, or how would the city be able to expand if most of the land was low title and couldn't be sold. Lots of Sor Por Gor land out here, most of the surrounding area of Ubon city was Sor Por Gor land, how could you build a home hub, Big C etc if the titles weren't changed.

All land in Thailand will be surveyed and all legal land no matter the title will be issued with a national charnote title. It's a big country and they started with the cities, main highways and places of importance, it may well take another 20 years to do the whole place. They want a modern computerized land registry.

I will try and find something that mentions Sor Por Gor, but no where does it say all land except Sor Por Gor, it's just another title. Jim

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## Gravesend Dave

> Originally Posted by Pragmatic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Gravesend Dave
> ...


Jim I am all for being educated although I can,t see this affecting me in the future.

I mention one title as that was the one that almost all rubber farms I viewed had.I did the research and was made aware that its not wise for falang to invest in this land.

I think you will find that almost all rubber land with that title is within land which still boarders jungle and other protected areas.
The bottom line is a lot of Thais have the right to farm basically cleared jungle for a yearly government tax.

Rubber made many want that land with all sorts of deals between thais,with sometime Thais looking for falang buyers with a over inflated price attached.

Don,t think tesco or big c will be popping up in those places.

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## Pragmatic

> Sor Por Kor land ownership papers are not *transferrable* under the present system, but  they can be *mortgaged* with the *Bank for Agriculture and Agricultural  Cooperatives*.


 Possible flaws in Sor Por Kor land reform | Bangkok Post: learning
Just to confirm that what I said about Sor Por Kor papers as being none tranferable.

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## Pragmatic

> I believe 20 Rai person, or 50 Rai per family, is all that can be owned legally.


Sorry it's 25 Rai per person. Sor Por Gor Land

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## jamescollister

Now this is not part of the national land survey scheme, but a stop gap measure to try and move things along because of the amount of land of all title that need surveyed.
By the way only about 10% of land has charnote.


BKK post 2010

A  source said the government was moving to amend a related land law in  the process of changing the Sor Por Kor papers to title deeds. The  change was expected to be done in phases, starting with the Sor Por Kor  papers in provinces where there are no problems with land distribution.
 Some political analysts believe the  proposed land paper upgrade could prove another time bomb for the ruling  Democrat Party if it is not handled properly.
 Land reform has remained a sore point  for the Democrats. A debate in the House in 1995 exposed alleged  irregularities in the Sor Por Kor 4-01 land reform scheme in Phuket that  eventually led to the collapse of the first Chuan Leekpai government.
 Campaign for Popular Democracy  secretary-general Suriyant Thongnoo-iad said the conversion appeared to  be a cosmetic measure that was unlikely to deter land grabs.
 He said the land reform abuse was left  unchecked because there were not enough surveyors at the Agricultural  Land Reform Office. Each surveyor oversees about 30,000 rai of reform  land.
 The reform land covers 31 million rai,  or about 10% of the country's land area, in 679 districts across 69  provinces, Mr Suriyant said.
 Print this page   |    Email this page In the newsBDO EventsPress Releases

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## ltnt

Jim,

Got a call today from the land office in Chaing Rai.  Our Chanote title is complete and ready for our pick up.  1 year to the day from original filing. 

Good news, now I can start the build without looking over my shoulder.  Property is East of Chaing Saen about 30 kilometers along the Mae Kong.  Land is high and about 5 miles south of the river.  No flooding in this area.

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## jamescollister

> Jim,
> 
> Got a call today from the land office in Chaing Rai.  Our Chanote title is complete and ready for our pick up.  1 year to the day from original filing. 
> 
> Good news, now I can start the build without looking over my shoulder.  Property is East of Chaing Saen about 30 kilometers along the Mae Kong.  Land is high and about 5 miles south of the river.  No flooding in this area.


Good for you, make sure you get the planning permission first, usually a piece of cake, but planning permission can't be back dated. 

Enjoy the headaches from watching the build, good luck. Jim

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## ltnt

^Will do, thanks.

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## Mosha

> Hi Jim I live about 50kms South of Buri ram ,I've been here since April 04 ,and as you rightly say many Thai's appear to fritter their money away on  non essentials , many here only work at planting and harvesting time and appear to have a lot of time on their hands ,time were they could be doing other things ,this is why I said  earlier ,I am sure with the right approach their lives could Improve ,nice to hear that Rubbers going up too, many have give up on Rice ,and now on the higher ground thousands of rubber saplings have taken rices place ,Jans Aunt has 15 Rai chock full of 18 month old trees ,but she's a grafter and is down there almost every day doing something or other ,shame her bone idle husband is not the same way inclined ,theres a Dutch guy about 15 kms from me who comes in our local who's got 25 rai of 2 year old trees so he's confident enough in rubbers future ,I suppose its the same old adage you only get out what you put in innit


We had a month on Kee Yang and now on USS. We've not sold any USS yet, but a Swiss mate tells me it's around 80 Baht.

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## jamescollister

Still on cup, rains everyday, could probably go over to sheet if I had the workers, about 7 short. 
Rubber RRS is back up around the 80 Baht  local price, hope for a bit higher later in the year, but who knows. The commodity markets are all over the shop. jim

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## crepitas

this land registry thing is all so flaky and confusing..
What is the benefit of Chanote at the end of the day? Okay the wife or can mortgage it and maybe building is maybe simplified.
We are on a 100+ rai of SBK and the villagers say all locale will be surveyed "soon" for Chanote. 
They have finally started _blacktop_ on our nearest road...headman told us "soon" about 6 years ago..lol
Yeah rubber price is all over the shop for sure...thought at one time it followed oil price..seems it really is actually manipulated by those who can based on some premise about world economy..buggered if I know. 
Hey it still pays the bills and has returned a healthy ROI over the years ..now over a and above original land and house investment...now it is just gravy or atleast beer. Still can't realistically _afford_ a new truck though ...according to her outdoors..maybe next year.

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## Mosha

> this land registry thing is all so flaky and confusing..
> What is the benefit of Chanote at the end of the day? Okay the wife or can mortgage it and maybe building is maybe simplified.
> We are on a 100+ rai of SBK and the villagers say all locale will be surveyed "soon" for Chanote. 
> They have finally started _blacktop_ on our nearest road...headman told us "soon" about 6 years ago..lol
> Yeah rubber price is all over the shop for sure...thought at one time it followed oil price..seems it really is actually manipulated by those who can based on some premise about world economy..buggered if I know. 
> Hey it still pays the bills and has returned a healthy ROI over the years ..now over a and above original land and house investment...now it is just gravy or atleast beer. Still can't realistically _afford_ a new truck though ...according to her outdoors..maybe next year.


Soon lol been there with the phone line and a bet with the ex BIL. I bet him 5000 Baht we would not get a line during a certain year. 2 months after the year passed, I got fed up and paid 10000 for a line oulling in. The cheeky sod then claimed I owed him 5000 Baht Ha Ha.

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## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by crepitas
> 
> 
> this land registry thing is all so flaky and confusing..
> What is the benefit of Chanote at the end of the day? Okay the wife or can mortgage it and maybe building is maybe simplified.
> We are on a 100+ rai of SBK and the villagers say all locale will be surveyed "soon" for Chanote. 
> They have finally started _blacktop_ on our nearest road...headman told us "soon" about 6 years ago..lol
> Yeah rubber price is all over the shop for sure...thought at one time it followed oil price..seems it really is actually manipulated by those who can based on some premise about world economy..buggered if I know. 
> Hey it still pays the bills and has returned a healthy ROI over the years ..now over a and above original land and house investment...now it is just gravy or atleast beer. Still can't realistically _afford_ a new truck though ...according to her outdoors..maybe next year.
> ...


About 6 years ago during some district election one of the candidates promised some villages telephone boxes. He won and true to his pledge those villages got telephone boxes, no phones or telephone lines, just the boxes. They still make me laugh when I see an empty phone box. Jim

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## Mosha

> Originally Posted by Mosha
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by crepitas
> ...


Bloody good one Jim. PMSL

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