#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Learn Thai Language >  >  Romanization of Falong/Farang/Farung

## RickThai

I always like to use “falong” as the English transliteration for the Thai word (slang) commonly used to refer to a Western foreigner.  A few posters repeatedly whine about my “incorrect” transliteration, since “farang” is commonly used by many.

Although I have patiently explained numerous times, that I prefer “falong” because it sounds (to me anyway) much closer to how Thais generally pronounce the word, my explanation is not enough for an obstinate few, who call me out for my use of that transliteration almost every time I use it (I suppose they live a rather unfulfilling life of low self-esteem and attempt to inflate their egos however they can).

Nonetheless, I decided to look into this transliteration (which is often transliterated as “farung” in many Thai-English dictionaries). 

In Thai script the word is  ฝรั่ง.  This maps to the following Thai alphabet (as taken from a Thai elementary school primer and transliterated as used in “Teach Yourself Thai” by David Smith):

First we will look at the three consonants:

ฝ ฝา – fo fan  A middle class consonant that has an “f” sound when used at the beginning of a Thai word.

ร เรือ – ro rua A middle class consonant that has an “r” sound (unless used at the end of a Thai word, then it has a “n” sound).  This is almost always pronounced “l” by the average Thais when speaking informally.

ง งู – ngo ngu A middle class consonant that has an “ng” sound.

Now for the interesting part, the vowel.

-ั	– sila u This is a short vowel and has a short “u” sound (although “short vowel” in Thai does not necessarily mean the same thing as a short vowel in English – in Thai it helps determine the tone).

The only other thing left is the tone mark.

'  – mai ack This is used to indicate that a low tone is to be used in this syllable for middle class and high class consonants and a falling tone is to be used for low class consonants.

So based upon the information above, you should be able to see why so many Thai-English dictionaries go with “farung”, and based upon actual variances in how Thais (and falongs) pronounce ฝรั่ง, "falong" is just as valid a Romanization as “farang” (and IMO gives the non-Thai a much better approximation to how the word is actually pronounced).  

Still, I'm sure there are a few closed-minded, individuals who will persist that their way is the only right way.

Santi,

RickThai

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## Aberlour

> (I suppose they live a rather unfulfilling life of low self-esteem and attempt to inflate their egos however they can).





> Still, I'm sure there are a few closed-minded, individuals who will persist that their way is the only right way.


You're a very strange person Rick. 

Who exactly is it that's obsessing about this again?

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## RickThai

> Originally Posted by RickThai
> 
> (I suppose they live a rather unfulfilling life of low self-esteem and attempt to inflate their egos however they can).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I prefer to think of myself as refreshingly unique.

Still I think it sad, that with all of the information provided in my post, you only chose to focus on my two comments concerning the posters who "nitpick" my use of the word "falong".  

What does that tell me about you?

Santi,

RickThai

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## Aberlour

I just asked my wife and she said it's pronounced Falung/Farung. So technically I was wrong as well as I always hear it more as Farang/Falang.

Doesn't change anything though. Falong is a completely different sounding word. Do the words Bung & Bong sound the same to you as well Rick?

Go ask your wife and see what she has to say.

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## RickThai

> I just asked my wife and she said it's pronounced Falung/Farung. So technically I was wrong as well as I always hear it more as Farang/Falang.
> 
> Doesn't change anything though. Falong is a completely different sounding word. Do the words Bung & Bong sound the same to you as well Rick?
> 
> Go ask your wife and see what she has to say.


I hear it as "fahlohng" and spell it as "falong", but that's just my preferences.  Not sure why it bothers you (or anybody else for that matter).  Many other posters use more diverse spellings than I, and it certainly doesn't bother me.

Does your wife pronounce it as "fahluhng" or "fa lung" (as in lung)?  Just curious.

And for the record, I do have some hearing loss due to a booby trap being tripped by a squad member when I was on point back in my US Army days. 

Santi,

RickThai

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## Aberlour

> Not sure why it bothers you


It doesn't bother me in the slightest. I've probably mentioned it twice and the second time was a tongue in cheek comment, in reference to the first time.

I just find it bizarre that you hear Ong instead of Ung/Ang.

Like I said, can you hear the difference between Bung, Bong & Bang?




> Does your wife pronounce it as "fahluhng" or "fa lung" (as in lung)? Just curious.


Farung/Falung. What about yours?




> And for the record, I do have some hearing loss due to a booby trap being tripped by a squad member when I was on point back in my US Army days.


Well that could be the answer right there mate.

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## pseudolus

I could understand Falang or Farang, but falong is simply not right unless you mix with Lloyd Grossman speaking Thai.

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## DrAndy

> I'm sure there are a few closed-minded, individuals who will persist that their way is the only right way.





> I always like to use “falong” as the English transliteration





> that I prefer “falong”


closed-minded individuals indeed

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## kingwilly

I didnt know that spelling was up to the individual.

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## Camel Toe

> I always like to use falong as the English transliteration for the Thai word (slang) commonly used to refer to a Western foreigner.


Thanks for clearing that up.  I've often wondered ..

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## Rural Surin

Regardless of the word or terminology, one simply cannot attach romanized characteristics to non-European languages.

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## benbaaa

In 12 years here I've heard falang or farang about a million times, and falong precisely zero times.

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## Camel Toe

> Regardless of the word or terminology, one simply cannot attach romanized characteristics to non-European languages.


Oh please don't ruin their fun.  FYI he's right.

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## taxexile

> -ั	– sila u This is a short vowel and has a short “u” sound (although “short vowel” in Thai does not necessarily mean the same thing as a short vowel in English – in Thai it helps determine the tone).


1.  its sara, not sila.

2.  its sara a, as in "jap". 

so your grossly mispronounced falung, becomes farang.

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## pseudolus

> gardless of the word or terminology, one simply cannot attach romanized characteristics to non-European languages.


Chai




> In 12 years here I've heard falang or farang about a million times, and falong precisely zero times.


Agree. Farang and  Falang a million times but never heard falong. Ever.

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## Bobcock

God help us.... it is neither sara u or sara a

It is Mai Hanakad ไม้หันอากาศ. (transliterate it however you like). It is a Monophthong vowel - a.

As for the original question the word when transliterated under the official rules of transliteration as introduced by King Rama V, the word is farang.

But Rick, you transliterate it however you feel comfortable. We know what you mean, I guess others bring it up when they cannot find a whole to pick in your argueement.

We all hear things differently, and if it helps you understand better then all the better for you.

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## poorfalang

truth in in the eyes (ears) of the beholder




> Agree. Farang and Falang a million times but never heard falong. Ever.


Correct.

So, Rick you are a falong trying to tell many other falangs (farangs) depending of location, Issan (Falang), central Thai (Farang) 
that they are wrong and you are right?
about this, come on, get a grip mate,

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## Bobcock

Really... well I think anyone who transliterates based on how peasants speak rather than on the actual spelling and correct transliteration as well off the mark, so whilst you are looking down at Rick, I'm on my high horse looking down on you..... falang....ha...who are you kidding.

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## pseudolus

> Llanddewi Brefi's Finest   Really... well I think anyone who transliterates based on how peasants speak rather than on the actual spelling and correct transliteration as well off the mark, so whilst you are looking down at Rick, I'm on my high horse looking down on you..... falang....ha...who are you kidding.



 :smiley laughing:   you. you. you're good.

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## taxexile

> God help us.... it is neither sara u or sara a
> It is Mai Hanakad ไม้หันอากาศ


well yes and no.

that is the name for the symbol that designates the short vowel sound "a" when there is a consonant after the vowel.

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## peterpan

"(I suppose they live a rather unfulfilling life of  low self-esteem and attempt to inflate their egos however they can)" 

That's precisely why  I looked down on people who didn't share the same preferences (sexual and ethnicity) as I do.

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## nidhogg

> But Rick, you transliterate it however you feel comfortable. We know what you mean, I guess others bring it up when they cannot find a whole to pick in your argueement.
> .


I bow to your far, far superior knowledge of the Thai language, but do disagree on this bit.

After more then 12 years in Thailand, I have yet to hear anyone (and I do mean anyone) pronounce the word even close to "Falong".  I have never met another foreigner who pronounces the term even close to "Falong".  The only differences I ever hear in the word are the "falang/farang" differences in intonation.

Rick can try and defend his "falong" as much as he wants, but like latindancer and his "valving windows" - it aint gonna fly and just marks him down as a bit daft.

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## charleyboy

Romanization (as someone else has already said) of Thai is utter rubbish.

Just a couple of stupid Romanisations for you to mull over...

'Koh' as in Island. Thai script เกาะ  Not a 'K' sound in sight.

'Kanchanaburi' Province. Thai script กาญจนบุรี No 'K' there either.

I'm sure that the 'resident expert on Thai' will be along shortly to explain as some of you already have(in my eyes) done.

C'mon Todd.

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## Bobcock

The rules of transliteration as put in place by King Rama V does not use a G at all.

a single k, is used for what we would use the g for. A k with a following h is used for an aspirated K or what we would use k for.

Rightly or wrongly that is the system in place. You can spend hours picking it apart, people picking on RickThai may just have had an additional agenda?

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## charleyboy

I'm not picking on anybody. When I first came to live here, I decided to learn Thai because I couldn't get my head around the romanisation of the language.


Oh! And because my wife doesn't speak English.

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## Bobcock

One thing that should be remembered......

When King Rama V came up with a system of transliteration he did not write it from the point of helping a Westerner to pronounce Thai words.

He did it to help a person who understood the different origins of the letters of the Thai alphabet to understand which of the two was being used in the Thai spelling.

A brief example is the tramsliteration of the word Suwarnabhumi and the unused vowel at the end. The vowel at the end of it helps the knowledgable person (of which I do not claim to be one) identify the actual consonants used in part of the word. Same with Shinawatra and many others.

The system is far more complicated that just phonetically spelling words to aid a Westerner.

When RickThai spells it a way that means something to him and his ears, what actual harm is he doing?

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## Bobcock

> I'm not picking on anybody. When I first came to live here, I decided to learn Thai because I couldn't get my head around the romanisation of the language.


I've added a word to my post so you don't think that I am referring to you when I say about people hounding RickThai.

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## nidhogg

> When RickThai spells it a way that means something to him and his ears, what actual harm is he doing?


Because, as you note in your previous posts, the system IS a mess.  Pointlessly adding to that just seems inane.

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## Bobcock

Fair enough although I didn't say it was a mess, I just said what it was. To me it generally seems logical when you read about why and how it was developed.

Just be aware......I'll be hot on your tails from now on........55555... you could say I'll be a pedantic bastard.

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## nidhogg

> Fair enough although I didn't say it was a mess, I just said what it was. To me it generally seems logical when you read about why and how it was developed.
> 
> Just be aware......I'll be hot on your tails from now on........55555... you could say I'll be a pedantic bastard.


 
But it IS a mess.  Go on any trip of any distance, and you will see the same city spelled multiple ways.  There are a dozen (if not more) ways of spelling my full work address - all used by different people.


For you being on my tail - no problem, you are more than welcome to pull me up if I ever use the term "falong".

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## Davis Knowlton

[quote=RickThai;2458227]I always like to use falong as the English transliteration for the Thai word (slang) commonly used to refer to a Western foreigner.

Is this a word you use frequently? Not being Thai, it's a word I don't recall using in the six years I lived there.

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## pseudolus

> people picking on RickThai may just have had an additional agenda?


Hmm so Bobcock has an agenda against nidhogg   then? Interesting.

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## Boon Mee

[quote=Davis Knowlton;2458756]


> I always like to use falong as the English transliteration for the Thai word (slang) commonly used to refer to a Western foreigner.
> 
> Is this a word you use frequently? Not being Thai, it's a word I don't recall using in the six years I lived there.


'Falong'?

Never heard that word before.

Lazy people tend to say 'falang' instead of the correct 'farang' as pronouncing the 'R' is difficult for them.  The word is spelled with a roo rua vs a lo ling.

Sorta like some in the States pronounce Florida "Florider"

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## Aberlour

> Rightly or wrongly that is the system in place. You can spend hours picking it apart, people picking on RickThai may just have had an additional agenda?


Nobodies been picking on him.  :Smile:  Some people simply said he was wrong, and he is.




> When King Rama V came up with a system of transliteration he did not write it from the point of helping a Westerner to pronounce Thai words.





> The system is far more complicated that just phonetically spelling words to aid a Westerner.


But that's what we use it for today is it not? I don't really see the importance of this constant reference to King Rama V and the system he devised. We use it to communicate what Thai words we are referring to as best we can. If Rick wrote Falong down for a first time traveller to Thailand, and told him that's how to say it, the traveller would be running around Thailand saying a word that not one single person understood. Where's the point in that?




> When RickThai spells it a way that means something to him and his ears, what actual harm is he doing?


No harm, unless as I just mentioned, he's trying to help somebody else understand how the word is spoken, but nobody gets hurt if that's what you mean. He is however, completely wrong as this thread proves somewhat conclusively, and no amount of saying other people have low self esteem, or are in need of inflating their egos will change that.

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## Bobcock

> We use it to communicate what Thai words we are referring to as best we can.


Are you referring to here on Teak Door?

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## Aberlour

^Anytime we are trying to communicate something by the written word, in an unofficial capacity. I'm sure there times when two people who both know king Rama's official method, may use that strictly,  but how often is that likely to be.

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## pseudolus

I remember the first time I landed at swampy I was rather concerned to hear the pilot say we were landing at Soowannapoom. Where the hell is that, I thought?

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## nidhogg

> ^Anytime we are trying to communicate something by the written word, in an unofficial capacity. I'm sure there times when two people who both know king Rama's official method, may use that strictly, but how often is that likely to be.


I suppose that communication is esentially an "agreement".  We agree that these sounds, characters or whatever mean certain things.

If everyone unilaterally decided to use their own system it would end in crambledosh.

(Funnily enough, crambledosh is pronounced exactly like "chaos").

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## Bobcock

> ^Anytime we are trying to communicate something by the written word, in an unofficial capacity. I'm sure there times when two people who both know king Rama's official method, may use that strictly, but how often is that likely to be.


Obviously not between us.....

Personally I don't know why people don't just speak English together..... always makes me cringe when people insert a Thai word into a sentence when typing on a forum when it has no purpose than to show they know the word.

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## Boon Mee

> Originally Posted by Aberlour
> 
> 
> ^Anytime we are trying to communicate something by the written word, in an unofficial capacity. I'm sure there times when two people who both know king Rama's official method, may use that strictly, but how often is that likely to be.
> 
> 
> Obviously not between us.....
> 
> Personally I don't know why people don't just speak English together..... always makes me cringe when people insert a Thai word into a sentence when typing on a forum when it has no purpose than to show they know the word.


I do that from time to time to posters whom I know have a 'handle' on the language (Thai) - like Tham Jai Khun.

Also, the German word Schandenfreude is a jolly good one to interject in the appropriate discussion as it does not have a direct English equivalent.  :Smile:

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## Aberlour

> If everyone unilaterally decided to use their own system it would end in crambledosh.
> 
> (Funnily enough, crambledosh is pronounced exactly like "chaos").


Excellent.   :Smile: 




> Originally Posted by Aberlour
> 
> 
> ^Anytime we are trying to communicate something by the written word, in an unofficial capacity. I'm sure there times when two people who both know king Rama's official method, may use that strictly, but how often is that likely to be.
> 
> 
> Obviously not between us.....
> 
> Personally I don't know why people don't just speak English together..... always makes me cringe when people insert a Thai word into a sentence when typing on a forum when it has no purpose than to show they know the word.


There are times it's a must. What if someone asks what it is someone posted in the dinner thread, and how to order it. What good would it do if you told them in such a way that when they tried to order it, nobody knew what they were talking about?

Two real life examples. If my wife wants me to buy her something while I'm out, and I don't want to just hand the person a piece of paper with it written in Thai as I once would have done, but practice my Thai by ordering it myself.  I would write it on a piece if paper so I could remind myself of how to say it just before I order. I need to read it exactly as it sounds.

Recently I had brief chat with someone via PM about the word pee-set, as in special sized portion. I needed to communicate with him the best I could so that when he tried to use it  himself, he was understood. What would have happened if I had decided to spell it pee-sot just because I wanted to be different? 

Nobody is picking on Rick, and nobody really cares how he spells it. He is, and will remain to be wrong though, everytime he writes the word Falong, because that simply isn't how the word sounds.

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## Bobcock

> Originally Posted by Bobcock
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Aberlour
> ...


Good example.... kreng jai is another.....

But when someone writes.... "so I said to my tilac we need to go kin khao".... I cringe.

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## Bobcock

> There are times it's a must. What if someone asks what it is someone posted in the dinner thread, and how to order it. What good would it do if you told them in such a way that when they tried to order it, nobody knew what they were talking about?


If that is the example you can come up with you obviously don't understand the words "when people insert a Thai word into a sentence when typing on a forum when it has no purpose"

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## kingwilly

> If everyone unilaterally decided to use their own system it would end in crambledosh.


or even a salmagundi ?





> Personally I don't know why people don't just speak English together..... always makes me cringe when people insert a Thai word into a sentence when typing on a forum when it has no purpose than to show they know the word.


yup.

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## Boon Mee

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Bobcock
> ...


Me too.

The other thing that makes me cringe as well is hearing a Farang speaking 'baby-talk' to pooying Thai.  Like if the guy can't speak normal English he resorts to some sort of communication that makes him look stupid and the gal's IQ isn't considered.

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## Bobcock

Exactly... don't get me started on baby talk

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## nidhogg

> Originally Posted by nidhogg
> 
> If everyone unilaterally decided to use their own system it would end in crambledosh.
> 
> 
> or even a salmagundi ?


That would be prandelish.





> Originally Posted by Bobcock
> 
> Personally I don't know why people don't just speak English together..... always makes me cringe when people insert a Thai word into a sentence when typing on a forum when it has no purpose than to show they know the word.
> 
> 
> yup.


 
Are we allowed any? I would probably use "soi" out of habit rather than "side street"......

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## kingwilly

> always makes me cringe when people insert a Thai word into a sentence when typing on a forum when it has no purpose than to show they know the word.





> Me too.





> hearing a *Farang* speaking 'baby-talk' to *pooying* Thai.


 :rofl:

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## kingwilly

> Are we allowed any? I would probably use "soi" out of habit rather than "side street"......


fair call. 





> prandelish


Did you mean:
prandelli
grandelash
pranglish
puredelish

No results containing all your search terms were found.

Your search - prandelish - did not match any documents.

Suggestions:

Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
Try different keywords.
Try more general keywords.

 :Sad:

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## Bobcock

> Are we allowed any? I would probably use "soi" out of habit rather than "side street"......


indeed....excepotions that always prove the rule....My Rule.

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## Boon Mee

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> always makes me cringe when people insert a Thai word into a sentence when typing on a forum when it has no purpose than to show they know the word.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Something you find humorous - please share... :mid: 

btw, get yer quotes correct next time, eh?  The top one ain't mine, bud...

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## kingwilly

quote fixed.

and yes it is funny.

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## Aberlour

> Originally Posted by Aberlour
> 
> There are times it's a must. What if someone asks what it is someone posted in the dinner thread, and how to order it. What good would it do if you told them in such a way that when they tried to order it, nobody knew what they were talking about?
> 
> 
> If that is the example you can come up with you obviously don't understand the words "when people insert a Thai word into a sentence when typing on a forum when it has no purpose"


Obviousy I was still talking about the main topic and implying that there are times when it's important to spell things how they sound. You couldn't deduce that?

I have given several logical examples why it is important to convey the correct sound when using the transliteration of the Thai language.

I doubt rick can give one logical benefit to spelling a word  that sounds like farang, as falong. You defended him so if you can think of one, please feel free to share it.

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## Boon Mee

> quote fixed.


Apparently not as that top quote is not mine...

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## kingwilly

post 48 looks fine to me mate. 

or are you asking me to _edit your_ post now too ?

 ::doglol::

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## Boon Mee

> post 48 looks fine to me mate. 
> 
> or are you asking me to _edit your_ post now too ?


Tham jai khun... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## kingwilly

> Heh...seems you missed post 51 now haven't you?


post 51 is your post.

are you asking me to edit your post ?

Only mods and you can edit your post. 

I cannot edit your post.

 ::doglol::

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## Boon Mee

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> Heh...seems you missed post 51 now haven't you?
> 
> 
> post 51 is your post.
> 
> are you asking me to edit your post ?
> 
> ...


Well, then don't edit my post, will ya!  :Smile:

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## RickThai

> Regardless of the word or terminology, one simply cannot attach romanized characteristics to non-European languages.


Someone has seen (or at least stated) the light!

RickThai

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## RickThai

> I just asked my wife and she said it's pronounced Falung/Farung. So technically I was wrong as well as I always hear it more as Farang/Falang.
> 
> Doesn't change anything though. Falong is a completely different sounding word. Do the words Bung & Bong sound the same to you as well Rick?


No. But do the words Bung and Bang (or to be fair - Bong) sound the same to you?

To my ears, the vowel as used in falong, sounds somewhere between "ohng" and "uhng".  Doesn't sound anywhere close to "ahng".  But then again, most of the Thai I hear spoken by Thais is around Central Thailand.  Maybe in Issan, Bangkok, or Southern Thailand the word sounds more like "uhng" or "lung".

(And I almost never hear the "r" pronounced in any Thai words.  I understand it is a quick rolling "r" similar to what you might hear in Scotland if the person was in a hurry.).

Santi,

RickThai

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## Aberlour

^ If reading this thread hasn't cleared it up for you mate, then what can I say?

If you tried to teach someone how to say that word, and you wrote it on a piece of paper for them. They then went and spoke it to 100 Thai people, not one of them would know what the fuck he was saying. It's as simple as that, so what point is there to spelling it that way?

There is nothing you have said or can say in the future, that will make those letters in that order, when spoken by an English speaking person, sound like the word Farang, when spoken by a Thai. It just simply doesn't and never will.

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## RickThai

> If Rick wrote Falong down for a first time traveller to Thailand, and told him that's how to say it, the traveller would be running around Thailand saying a word that not one single person understood..


So you honestly think any Thai would understand someone saying "fa rang" (as in rang the bell)?  Or for that matter "fa rang" as in Rangoon?

As long as the person understands the 'o' in "falong" is a short 'o', they would probably say it close enough for a Thai to understand IMO.

But bottom line, everyone has their preferences, and as stated by Bobcock, et. al. any English transliteration of the Thai language is only an approximation.

I'm happy spelling it my way and if others are happy spelling it "farang", no harm, no foul.  

RickThai

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## DrB0b

> When RickThai spells it a way that means something to him and his ears, what actual harm is he doing?


Nu horm it orl.  Kiract perunshiatiom unt spolleng as averuted. 

Regardless of all the twaddle about transliteration and correct spelling (much from the OP himself) the OP has already said that he pronounces it as he hears it, so it's got bugger all to do with either transliteration or spelling. As the OP has already stated that he has cloth ears from  his jolly green giant impersonation among the freedom-loving peoples of Asia we can safely assume that he's not hearing the word properly.

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## Hareeba

> Originally Posted by Aberlour
> 
> 
>  If Rick wrote Falong down for a first time traveller to Thailand, and told him that's how to say it, the traveller would be running around Thailand saying a word that not one single person understood..
> 
> 
> So you honestly think any Thai would understand someone saying "fa rang" (as in rang the bell)? Or for that matter "fa rang" as in Rangoon?
> 
> As long as the person understands the 'o' in "falong" is a short 'o', they would probably say it close enough for a Thai to understand IMO.
> ...


 
Falong would confuse them. Best to listen to Thais first then say what they say rather than invent your own pronunciations.

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## nidhogg

> Regardless of the word or terminology, one simply cannot attach romanized characteristics to non-European languages.


Malay was originally written in Jawi (an arabic based script) until it was replaced (with few exceptions) by the romanized Rumi script.

So, in fact you absolutely CAN attach romanized characteristics to non-European languages.......

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## nidhogg

> Originally Posted by Rural Surin
> 
> 
> Regardless of the word or terminology, one simply cannot attach romanized characteristics to non-European languages.
> 
> 
> Someone has seen (or at least stated) the light!
> 
> RickThai


You agree -because you are both wrong!

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## Rural Surin

> Originally Posted by Rural Surin
> 
> 
> Regardless of the word or terminology, one simply cannot attach romanized characteristics to non-European languages.
> 
> 
> Malay was originally written in Jawi (an arabic based script) until it was replaced (with few exceptions) by the romanized Rumi script.
> 
> So, in fact you absolutely CAN attach romanized characteristics to non-European languages.......


No.
It was forcibly introduced, so has no base in reality.
Except from a narrow Eurocentric perspective.

----------


## nidhogg

> Originally Posted by nidhogg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Rural Surin
> ...


You said you can't do it.  I showed a case where it had been done.  End of argument.

----------


## charleyboy

How would you 'romanize' tones?

Just asking.

----------


## Rural Surin

> How would you 'romanize' tones?
> 
> Just asking.


Phonetics.

And it still doesn't come true.

----------


## Spin

> So you honestly think any Thai would understand someone saying "fa rang" (as in rang the bell)? Or for that matter "fa rang" as in Rangoon?


Yes, all of them.

----------


## DrB0b

> Originally Posted by Rural Surin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by nidhogg
> ...


Vietnamese was also successfully romanised. Perhaps RS will also tell us that Vietnamese has no basis in reality either?




> Originally Posted by charleyboy
> 
> 
> How would you 'romanize' tones?
> 
> Just asking.
> 
> 
> Phonetics.
> ...



Ahem,

Có thể nói rằng chữ viết của tiếng Việt phản ánh phát âm tiết tiếng Việt  một cách tổng hợp, nghĩa là phản ánh những khu biệt âm tiết của tất cả  các phương ngữ. Về mặt này, chữ viết có tác dụng thể hiện và giữ gìn sự  thống nhất của tiếng Việt, vì nó tạo ra một tâm lí khá phổ biến cho rằng  phát âm phản ánh trên chữ viết, vốn không tồn tại một cách tự nhiên  trong thực tế, là phát âm chuẩn thống nhất của tiếng Việt. _Chính tả trở thành cơ sở của chính âm_.  Dần dần, ngày càng có thêm những người có ý thức dựa theo chính tả uốn  nắn phát âm phương ngữ của mình cho phù hợp với chữ viết.

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## kingwilly

Please Dr, dont embarrass yourself and argue with an expert like RS....

----------


## Jofrey

As the Thais all pronounce the word differently it is really a case of choose your spelling isn't it? 

I'd rather not use it all personally.

----------


## Rural Surin

> Please Dr, dont embarrass yourself and argue with an expert like RS....


I'm sure the good Doctor will also know that the Tonkin Kingdoms had their own ancient script.....

He surely does realize, even in his efforts to convince, modern French-imposed phonetic romanized script has little bearing on reality or historic matter.

Only really applies Euro-illusion, as they create historic realms for the world as they see fit - not how it might be.

----------


## DrAndy

^ and your post has little bearing on your original statement, which DrBob destroyed


the problem with Thai is that there is no real official method of transliteration

so depending on which textbook you pick up, you may get variations

but Farang is pretty clear!!  Falang is a possibility

----------


## Neverna

> Originally Posted by Rural Surin
> 
> 
> Regardless of the word or terminology, one simply cannot attach romanized characteristics to non-European languages.
> 
> 
> Malay was originally written in Jawi (an arabic based script) until it was replaced (with few exceptions) by the romanized Rumi script.
> 
> So, in fact you absolutely CAN attach romanized characteristics to non-European languages.......


And Vietnamese and Turkish.

----------


## Neverna

> How would you 'romanize' tones?
> 
> Just asking.


Look at how the Vietnamese do it. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_language

----------


## RickThai

> Originally Posted by charleyboy
> 
> 
> How would you 'romanize' tones?
> 
> Just asking.
> 
> 
> Phonetics.
> ...


RS,

Are you stating tones can be shown by phonetically spelling the words?

If so, could you show me how you would phonetically spelling the following Thai 
words which mean totally different things depending on tone? 

khao (enter)
khao (rice)
khao (mountain)
khao (he/she)
khao (white)

RickThai

----------


## PorYai

It's not that it is impossible to write Thai using phonetics, incl. tones (there already are several very good systems out there that are at times even better at representing how Thai sounds than the Thai script itself  :Very Happy:  ), the problem is that everyone uses their own "system" which makes it very hard to communicate.

The Thai government probably should have done something like the Chinese did with pinyin: come with an adequate system of phonetics and push it forward to make it the standard.

But they didn't, and now were left with a bit of a Babylonical mess  :Very Happy:  

And as long as were left with that mess it doesn't really matter to me if ฝรั่ง is written as farang, falang, farung, falung, falong, or whatever other way you choose to write it. 
To me it's pretty useless arguing which way is right or wrong, as long as I know you mean ฝรั่ง I'm already happy  :Very Happy:

----------


## Rural Surin

> Originally Posted by Rural Surin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by charleyboy
> ...


Yet. you'll continue to see these words through an English phonetic spelling which still has no relation towards how they are spelled [and pronouced] in Thai.

Your [et al] insistence that there is some sort of relationship between the rwo is simply astounding.

Thick.

----------


## RickThai

> Originally Posted by RickThai
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Rural Surin
> ...


That has to be the most NON ANSWER to a simple question that I have ever seen on any forum.  You stated that you can show tones (as used in Thai) phonetically, and yet when I asked you how, you replied with a totally evasive rambling about how they are spelled in Thai which has nothing to do with how you would phonetically show the tones with an English spelling.

If you know how to spell the word in Thai script and understand all the tone marks and tone rules; that still has absolutely nothing to do with the Engliah romantization of tones.

Most serious English transliterations of Thai include some kind of mark (or lack of) to indicate the tone of the word, not different phonetical spellings. 

I assume "Thick" is a word you are very familiar with and has no bearing on me or my post, or do you use the word "thick" whenever you do not understand something?

At any rate, you have answered my question by lack of a real answer.

RickThai

----------


## pescator

> If so, could you show me how you would phonetically spelling the following Thai 
> words which mean totally different things depending on tone? 
> 
> khao (enter)
> khao (rice)
> khao (mountain)
> khao (he/she)
> khao (white)
> 
> RickThai


Actually, the word for "mountain" and "he/she" is one and the same เขา.

Although "mountain" is usually referred to as "Poo Khao".

Just saying    :mid:

----------


## RickThai

> Originally Posted by RickThai
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If so, could you show me how you would phonetically spelling the following Thai 
> words which mean totally different things depending on tone? 
> 
> khao (enter)
> ...


I know the Thai words for mountain and he/she are spelled the same in Thai. 

However they have different tones (as does all the words in my list).  That is why I selected the "khao" words for RS to show me how he/she phonetically shows the tones when transliterating to English.

RickThai

----------


## pescator

They don`t have different tones. But it would take someone literate in thai to know this  :Wink:

----------


## benbaaa

If you wanted to Romanize (is that a real word, BTW?), you could do it very simply, I'd have thought.

'khao - high tone
,khao - low tone
khao - mid tone
/khao - rising tone
\khao -falling tone

Obviously, you wouldn't use a comma for low, but a short vertical line in low position. And for the falling and rising, you could use the two French accents (acute for rising and grave for falling) on the first or stressed vowel. Don't think my phone can do this, but it could easily be fixed.

----------


## Zooheekock

> However they have different tones (as does all the words in my list).


Not quite.

khao (enter) is เข้า. Falling with a short vowel.
khao (rice) ข้าว is ข้าว. Falling with a long vowel.
khao (mountain) is เขา. Rising with a short vowel.
khao (he/she) is เขา or เค้า. Either rising with a short vowel or, more normally, high with a short vowel.
khao (white) is ขาว. Rising with a long vowel.

I don't think you can get a full house with khao but you could have had news (ข่าว) to at least get a low tone.

And it's an unfortunate choice of words because you can give fully accurate IPA transcriptions of these which only use standard Roman letters. They will all be either [kʰaw] or [kʰaːw] (with the relevant IPA tone marks).

----

^ Or you could use numbers, as in pinyin.

----------


## RickThai

> If you wanted to Romanize (is that a real word, BTW?), you could do it very simply, I'd have thought.
> 
> 'khao - high tone
> ,khao - low tone
> khao - mid tone
> /khao - rising tone
> \khao -falling tone
> 
> Obviously, you wouldn't use a comma for low, but a short vertical line in low position. And for the falling and rising, you could use the two French accents (acute for rising and grave for falling) on the first or stressed vowel. Don't think my phone can do this, but it could easily be fixed.


There are plenty of ways to show Thai tones using various symbols (carots, etc), but Rural Surin stated he/she could show the tones using "phonetic spelling" (which I doubt).  


RickThai

----------


## RickThai

> However they have different tones (as does all the words in my list).
> 			
> 		
> 
> Not quite.
> 
> khao (enter) is เข้า. Falling with a short vowel.
> khao (rice) ข้าว is ข้าว. Falling with a long vowel.
> khao (mountain) is เขา. Rising with a short vowel.
> ...


See my above response.

RckThai

----------


## DrB0b

> Originally Posted by benbaaa
> 
> 
> If you wanted to Romanize (is that a real word, BTW?), you could do it very simply, I'd have thought.
> 
> 'khao - high tone
> ,khao - low tone
> khao - mid tone
> /khao - rising tone
> ...



I doubt that either of you have a clue what "phonetic spelling" actually means. If you did you would know that phonetics has symbols to cover all tones used in spoken languages.

Actually, as I'm damn sure neither of you know what the phonetic alphabet is, here's a helpful picture. Tones are bottom right;

----------


## RickThai

> .
> I doubt that either of you have a clue what "phonetic spelling" actually means. If you did you would know that phonetics has symbols to cover all tones used in spoken languages.
> 
> Actually, as I'm damn sure neither of you know what the phonetic alphabet is, here's a helpful picture. Tones are bottom right;


Apparently not every dictionary agrees with your definition of "phonetic spelling":

_Phonetic spelling is the representation of vocal sounds which express pronunciations of words. It is a system of spelling in which each letter represents invariably the same spoken sound. Some schools may use phonetic pronunciations to help children learn the spelling of difficult words, for instance, WEDNESDAY = Wed Nes Day. Phonetic spelling constitutes an alteration of ordinary spelling that better represents the spoken language, that employs only characters of the regular alphabet, and that is used in a context of conventional spelling._ 

That is an interesting chart of the "Phonetic Alphabet" though.

RickThai

----------


## DrB0b

^'juː ˈhæv ɔlˈrediː ˈʃoʊn 'juː ɑr ˈkluːləs ˈwen ˈɪt ˈkəmz tə prəˌnənsiːˈeɪʃən. ˈɪf  ˈjuː dɪˈsaɪd tə ˈkæriː ˈɔn ˈwɪð 'jər ˈɪgnrəns ðæt ɪz 'jər ˈlɔs, ˈnɑt  ˈmaɪn. aɪ wəl ˈnevər ˌəndərˈstænd ˈwaɪ ˈsəm ˈtʃuːz stʊˈpɪdətiː.




> Apparently not every dictionary agrees with your definition of "phonetic spelling":


That quote, even though it's from dictionary.com is not a dictionary definition, it's from a list of FAQs. If you had looked at the dictionary entry (there are many, even on that one site) you see that what I posted is the Phonetic Alphabet as used by linguists. As we are discussing languages and language tones then the standard linguistic Phonetic Alphabet is the appropriate one to use, it's what it was designed for.

You are really very, very bad at languages, aren't you?

----------


## charleyboy

^ Is that double Dutch?

----------


## DrB0b

> ^ Is that double Dutch?


Phonetic English,  I'm afraid.

----------


## nidhogg

Game, set and match to DrBob

----------


## kingwilly

Heck, my brain hurts just trying to read that, DrBob.

I'm not afraid to admit that's well outside my area of expertise (or even general knowledge)

----------


## nidhogg

> Heck, my brain hurts just trying to read that, DrBob.
> 
> I'm not afraid to admit that's well outside my area of expertise (or even general knowledge)


 
Yup, mine also.  I could pick out "stupidity" I think, which seems likely if he is posting in response to RickThai.

Must admit, it is not often you see a poster get demolished as frequently and comprehensively as RT, and yet he still keeps comming back......

----------


## Zooheekock

> Apparently not every dictionary agrees with your definition of "phonetic spelling":
> 
> Phonetic spelling is the representation of vocal sounds which express pronunciations of words. It is a system of spelling in which each letter represents invariably the same spoken sound. Some schools may use phonetic pronunciations to help children learn the spelling of difficult words, for instance, WEDNESDAY = Wed Nes Day.


Unfortunately, your quotation doesn't even agree with itself. <s> has two pronunciations: /s/ (as in sit) and /z/ (as in drives) and in the example given, it's voiced and hence comes out as /z/. In addition, writing out Wednesday as Wed Nes Day only helps you mispronounce it as /wɛd.nɛs.deɪ/ rather than the correct /ˈwɛnz.deɪ/. There's no particular reason why you should know any of this but if you don't (as with your rubbish about Thai and เขา, ข้าว, etc), don't start bollocking on about it as if you do.

----------


## nidhogg

> don't start bollocking on about it as if you do.


One of the things I do like about the board is the surprising degree of real expertise lurking in posters.  Anyone bullshitting is likely to get called on it, and its fun watching people walk into the meat grinder.....

----------


## kingwilly

> One of the things I do like about the board is the surprising degree of real expertise lurking in posters. Anyone bullshitting is likely to get called on it, and its fun watching people walk into the meat grinder.....


Quite true. 

Think Drivingtowank, think Ent and Latin Prancer, think Hasum man and that flouride nutter?

----------


## RickThai

> However they have different tones (as does all the words in my list).
> 			
> 		
> 
> Not quite.
> 
> khao (enter) is เข้า. Falling with a short vowel.
> khao (rice) ข้าว is ข้าว. Falling with a long vowel.
> khao (mountain) is เขา. Rising with a short vowel.
> ...


Actually here are the correct tones, Thai spelling, and tone rules for the words listed.

enter	เข้า  	falling tone due to mai toh with high class consonant

rice	ข้าว	falling tone due to mai toh with high class consonant


mountain  เขา	rising tone due to high class consonant with live syllable (ends with ao)	

he/she		เขา  rising tone due to high class consonant with live syllable (ends with 
ao)	

he/she (familiar) เค้า   high tone due to mai toh with low class consonant    

white	ขาว	rising tone due to high class consonant with live syllable (ends with long vowel)

Notice he/she has two different spellings (and tones) based upon how it is used.

There are also other "khao" Thai words that would give the "full house" (i.e. complete range of tones).  I just submitted these words to see how Rural Surin would phonetically spell them without using some type of tone marks.

RickThai

----------


## RickThai

> ^'juː ˈhæv ɔlˈrediː ˈʃoʊn 'juː ɑr ˈkluːləs ˈwen ˈɪt ˈkəmz tə prəˌnənsiːˈeɪʃən. ˈɪf  ˈjuː dɪˈsaɪd tə ˈkæriː ˈɔn ˈwɪð 'jər ˈɪgnrəns ðæt ɪz 'jər ˈlɔs, ˈnɑt  ˈmaɪn. aɪ wəl ˈnevər ˌəndərˈstænd ˈwaɪ ˈsəm ˈtʃuːz stʊˈpɪdətiː.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by RickThai
> 
> ...


DrBob,

If you think that the ONLY CORRECT WAY someone can phonetically spell Thai in English is by use of the chart (of which there are other systems and charts) you put in your post, then you are definitely not a professional linguist, and are probably a very narrow-minded person with an extremely limited view on life.

You might be able to fool some of the more gullible (and perhaps less intelligent) posters, but I know better.

Based upon the horsefeathers you post as absolute fact, f you really have a doctorate degree it must be in creative writing.


RickThai

----------


## RickThai

[QUOTE=nidhogg;2468406]


> Heck, my brain hurts just trying to read that, DrBob.
> 
> 
> Must admit, it is not often you see a poster get demolished as frequently and comprehensively as RT, and yet he still keeps comming back......


nidhogg,

You need to have more self-confidence in yourself and learn to think independently.  

All of my posted views are based upon personal knowledge, experience, education, and intelligence.

Like anyone I am occasionally wrong (at least on some aspects of my posts), but 98% of what you see posted in these forums is nothing but OPINION.  

There is no right or wrong answer.  I will repeat, there is no right or wrong answer. 

Once you understand that, then you will understand why I don't get upset when someone (or everyone) disagrees with me.  (It usually means that I am just smarter than most of the posters and they are limited in their ability to understand my views).

If I had an average intellect then I would think like the average poster, but I am not average.  Hence it doesn't bother me when "average" people call me stupid or thick or whatever, because I know better.

I know this sounds arrogant, but it is the truth.

Santi,

RickThai

----------


## nidhogg

Rick - obviously none of us are as smart as you - in your opinion of course.

But I will suggest that you pick up any reputable dictionary, and look up any word - and you will see, in brackets, immediately after the word the phonetic spelling of that word. And that spelling will be based exactly on the chart that DrBob posted.

Now, thats not opinion - thats fact.

----------


## Rural Surin

> Rick - obviously none of us are as smart as you - in your opinion of course.
> 
> But I will suggest that you pick up any reputable dictionary, and look up any word - and you will see, in brackets, immediately after the word the phonetic spelling of that word. And that spelling will be based exactly on the chart that DrBob posted.
> 
> Now, thats not opinion - thats fact.


Some of us aren't buying this "universal" phonetic spelling  based on a European standard.

Clowns.

----------


## Zooheekock

^ Perhaps you could supply a few examples of sounds found in natural languages which can't be transcribed using the IPA.

----------


## RickThai

There are many different systems (also known as romanization, transcription, or transliteration systems) available for phonetically spelling Thai words in English.

Here are three systems that are in fairly common use today. The Thai phrase คุณ เก็บ เสื้อ ไว้ ไหน "Where did you put the shirt?" is written in each system:

IPA - ˈkʰun ˈkèp̚ ˈsɯ̂ːa ˈwáj ˈnǎj

IPA (the International Phonetic Alphabet) is a world-wide standard system used by linguists to write the pronunciation of all the world's languages. Because it is such a broad and powerful pronunciation system, many people find it too complex and choose other systems. 

ALA-LC - khunM-kepL-sư̄aF-waiH-naiR

The ALA-LC system comes from the American Library Association and the US Library of Congress.  It does not normally indicate tones, but I have shown tones here for comparison.

Thai Govt+ - khun-kèp-sûea-wái-nǎi

Thai Govt+ is the pronunciation guide system that appears on Thai road signs and some official Thai Government documents and websites.  It does not normally indicate tones, but I have shown tones here for comparison.

In addition to these three systems, there are other systems in use by various educational and training organizations including the Haas System which is used (in some form) by the AUA Thai learning texts (by J. Marvin Brown) and the US Peace Corps Thai learning texts.

Although I am certainly not a linguist, I have four different Thai language books including: AUA Language Center Thai Course by J. Marvin Brown, A Programmed Course in Reading Thai Syllables by Edward M. Anthony, Teach Yourself Thai by David Smith, and Thai-English/English-Thai Talking Dictionary by Benjawan Poomsan Becker.

The first three books all used some variation of the Hass System, and the last one uses the Paiboon+ system (although the accompanying software supports 12 different systems).

So apparently DrBob’s IPA system is not the system of choice for many, professional Thai linguists, and it is certainly not the only valid system for Thai to English transliteration.

Some of the characters did not translate properly when I transferred them to the TeakDoor editor, but you still get the idea.

Santi,

RickThai

----------


## RickThai

> Rick - obviously none of us are as smart as you - in your opinion of course.
> 
> But I will suggest that you pick up any reputable dictionary, and look up any word - and you will see, in brackets, immediately after the word the phonetic spelling of that word. And that spelling will be based exactly on the chart that DrBob posted.
> 
> Now, thats not opinion - thats fact.


You might want to test your theory before you post it as fact!

RickThai

----------


## RickThai

> Originally Posted by nidhogg
> 
> 
> Rick - obviously none of us are as smart as you - in your opinion of course.
> 
> But I will suggest that you pick up any reputable dictionary, and look up any word - and you will see, in brackets, immediately after the word the phonetic spelling of that word. And that spelling will be based exactly on the chart that DrBob posted.
> 
> Now, thats not opinion - thats fact.
> 
> ...


You make a good point.  Any "standard" comes about through a committee of experts who meet and argue and fight until some "compromise" is finally reached.  This does not mean every expert is in agreement, or that the "standard" is the final word.  It is just one way to do something as agreed upon by that particular body at that particular time.  

Having worked in a regulated field (Medical devices) for 25 years, I have seen standards come and go.  You basically pick which standard you want your device to comply with and follow that edition of that standard.

Thinking any "standard" is gospel is a fools errand.

JMO, of course.

RickThai

----------


## DrB0b

> There are many different systems (also known as romanization, transcription, or transliteration systems) available for phonetically spelling Thai words in English.  Here are three systems that are in fairly common use today. The Thai phrase คุณ เก็บ เสื้อ ไว้ ไหน "Where did you put the shirt?" is written in each system:  IPA - ˈkʰun ˈkèp̚ ˈsɯ̂ːa ˈwáj ˈnǎj  IPA (the International Phonetic Alphabet) is a world-wide standard system used by linguists to write the pronunciation of all the world's languages. Because it is such a broad and powerful pronunciation system, many people find it too complex and choose other systems.  ALA-LC - khunM-kepL-sư̄aF-waiH-naiR  The ALA-LC system comes from the American Library Association and the US Library of Congress. It does not normally indicate tones, but I have shown tones here for comparison.  Thai Govt+ - khun-kèp-sûea-wái-nǎi  Thai Govt+ is the pronunciation guide system that appears on Thai road signs and some official Thai Government documents and websites. It does not normally indicate tones, but I have shown tones here for comparison.  In addition to these three systems, there are other systems in use by various educational and training organizations including the Haas System which is used (in some form) by the AUA Thai learning texts (by J. Marvin Brown) and the US Peace Corps Thai learning texts.  Although I am certainly not a linguist, I have four different Thai language books including: AUA Language Center Thai Course by J. Marvin Brown, A Programmed Course in Reading Thai Syllables by Edward M. Anthony, Teach Yourself Thai by David Smith, and Thai-English/English-Thai Talking Dictionary by Benjawan Poomsan Becker.  The first three books all used some variation of the Hass System, and the last one uses the Paiboon+ system (although the accompanying software supports 12 different systems).  So apparently DrBob’s IPA system is not the system of choice for many, professional Thai linguists, and it is certainly not the only valid system for Thai to English transliteration.  Some of the characters did not translate properly when I transferred them to the TeakDoor editor, but you still get the idea.


And exactly how many of them tell you that ฝรั่ง (fà ràŋ) is pronounced "falong"? :mid: 




> I always like to use “falong” as the English transliteration for the Thai word (slang)

----------


## Spin

^ Hold on a minute while Rick consults with his main advisor, Dan Quayle.

----------


## RickThai

> Originally Posted by RickThai
> 
> There are many different systems (also known as romanization, transcription, or transliteration systems) available for phonetically spelling Thai words in English.  Here are three systems that are in fairly common use today. The Thai phrase คุณ เก็บ เสื้อ ไว้ ไหน "Where did you put the shirt?" is written in each system:  IPA - ˈkʰun ˈkèp̚ ˈsɯ̂ːa ˈwáj ˈnǎj  IPA (the International Phonetic Alphabet) is a world-wide standard system used by linguists to write the pronunciation of all the world's languages. Because it is such a broad and powerful pronunciation system, many people find it too complex and choose other systems.  ALA-LC - khunM-kepL-sư̄aF-waiH-naiR  The ALA-LC system comes from the American Library Association and the US Library of Congress. It does not normally indicate tones, but I have shown tones here for comparison.  Thai Govt+ - khun-kèp-sûea-wái-nǎi  Thai Govt+ is the pronunciation guide system that appears on Thai road signs and some official Thai Government documents and websites. It does not normally indicate tones, but I have shown tones here for comparison.  In addition to these three systems, there are other systems in use by various educational and training organizations including the Haas System which is used (in some form) by the AUA Thai learning texts (by J. Marvin Brown) and the US Peace Corps Thai learning texts.  Although I am certainly not a linguist, I have four different Thai language books including: AUA Language Center Thai Course by J. Marvin Brown, A Programmed Course in Reading Thai Syllables by Edward M. Anthony, Teach Yourself Thai by David Smith, and Thai-English/English-Thai Talking Dictionary by Benjawan Poomsan Becker.  The first three books all used some variation of the Hass System, and the last one uses the Paiboon+ system (although the accompanying software supports 12 different systems).  So apparently DrBobs IPA system is not the system of choice for many, professional Thai linguists, and it is certainly not the only valid system for Thai to English transliteration.  Some of the characters did not translate properly when I transferred them to the TeakDoor editor, but you still get the idea.
> 
> 
> And exactly how many of them tell you that ฝรั่ง (fà ràŋ) is pronounced "falong"?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It doesn't matter.  That is the beauty of being an original, independent thinker.  I don't have to have some organization tell me how to transliterate a foreign word.

(Actually I have seen "falong" in other places, so its not exactly just me who uses that spelling).

Santi,

RickThai

----------


## kingwilly

> Once you understand that, then you will understand why I don't get upset when someone (or everyone) disagrees with me.  (It usually means that I am just smarter than most of the posters and they are limited in their ability to understand my views).


 :rofl: 





> If I had an average intellect then I would think like the average poster, but I am not average.  Hence it doesn't bother me when "average" people call me stupid or thick or whatever, because I know better.


 :rofl: 

 :tosser1:

----------


## nidhogg

> Originally Posted by nidhogg
> 
> 
> Rick - obviously none of us are as smart as you - in your opinion of course.
> 
> But I will suggest that you pick up any reputable dictionary, and look up any word - and you will see, in brackets, immediately after the word the phonetic spelling of that word. And that spelling will be based exactly on the chart that DrBob posted.
> 
> Now, thats not opinion - thats fact.
> 
> ...


...and you may want to check out the difference between a reputable dictionary and an : "AUA Language Center Thai Course"

----------


## kingwilly

> ...and you may want to check out the difference between a reputable dictionary and an : "AUA Language Center Thai Course"


 :rofl:

----------


## RickThai

For those interested, I checked 12 different pronunciation systems for "falang" and this is what I found.

One spelled it as "farung" (which happens to be the closest mapping to the Thai script).
Ten spelled it as "farang" (which is probably the most common phonetic spelling).
One (Dr Bob's IPA) spelled it as "faraᶇ" (which requires a special character).

As far as tones,

Three of the systems did not show tones or stress.
One used superscripts of H,M,L, F, and R.
Eight used some variation of `,',^,ᵛ  for low, high, falling, and rising respectively.

Also, out of the 4 Thai learning books I have, three of them stated that Thais commonly pronounce the "r" as an "l".

One of them also stated that the sila "u" sound is not pronounced as in English, but is similar to the "o" as in "house".

So you see, my preference for "falong" is not without merit, even though it is not commonly used.

Santi,

RickThai

----------


## RickThai

> As the Thais all pronounce the word differently it is really a case of choose your spelling isn't it? 
> 
> I'd rather not use it all personally.


You got a point about how Thais pronounce the word, but you lost me as to why you don't favor the word.

It is my understanding, that the French were the first Europeans to have an Embassy in Thailand, and the French people were referred to as "Falong-set" (probably because they are light-colored and "falong" is the word for guava  - a white-colored fruit).

I know that in today's society, some Thais occasionally use it in a derogatory fashion, but not all Thais.  To some, it is just a way to describe non-Asians; particularly the lightskinned variety.

I'm not sure if it is ever used to describe Negros, though.  Most Thais I know refer to Negroes as dom-dom (black).

Anyone know for sure?

RickThai

----------


## nidhogg

> Originally Posted by Jofrey
> 
> 
> As the Thais all pronounce the word differently it is really a case of choose your spelling isn't it? 
> 
> I'd rather not use it all personally.
> 
> 
> "Falong-set" 
> ...


You are having a laugh aren't you?

----------


## kingwilly

Sadly, like Gravey Davey I think he's 100% up front, he really means what he says.

----------


## Boon Mee

> I'm not sure if it is ever used to describe Negros, though.  Most Thais I know refer to Negroes as dom-dom (black).
> 
> Anyone know for sure?
> 
> RickThai


Negros are referred to as 'peau dum' by Thais or simply, Negros.

----------


## RickThai

> Originally Posted by RickThai
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if it is ever used to describe Negros, though.  Most Thais I know refer to Negroes as dom-dom (black).
> 
> Anyone know for sure?
> 
> RickThai
> ...


Thanks for the update.  

Back in the 1970s, I always heard Thais refer to them as "dom dom poo-chai", but I haven't heard any Thais make any reference to them at all in the last 40 years.

RickThai

----------


## RickThai

> Rick - obviously none of us are as smart as you - in your opinion of course.
> 
> But I will suggest that you pick up any reputable dictionary, and look up any word - and you will see, in brackets, immediately after the word the phonetic spelling of that word. And that spelling will be based exactly on the chart that DrBob posted.
> 
> Now, thats not opinion - thats fact.



nidgogg,

So are you going to use "faraᶇ" in all your posts from now on?

RickThai

----------


## RickThai

I found this on another forum and it was too funny (and true) not to share:

"I once asked my Thai girlfriend why it was that the Falang used the word ''Farang' and yet the Thai people always said Falang.

I thought her answer explained it perfectly as was her pronunciation:

"Because 'Farang' is the 'Falang' way to say 'Falang'.""

RickThai

----------


## DrAndy

oh good, LickThai

----------


## DrB0b

> oh good, LickThai


Do you think it's worth pointing out to him the difference between light L and dark L and that Thais don't really say falang? 
Nah, didn't think so.

----------


## RickThai

> Do you think it's worth pointing out to him the difference between light L and dark L and that Thais don't really say falang? 
> Nah, didn't think so.


DrB,

Have you ever been to Thailand?

RickThai

----------


## DrB0b

> Originally Posted by DrB0b
> 
> 
> Do you think it's worth pointing out to him the difference between light L and dark L and that Thais don't really say falang? 
> Nah, didn't think so.
> 
> 
> DrB,
> 
> ...


<sigh>


Have you ever bothered using the search function on the forum before asking stupid questions?

----------


## slackula

> You might be able to fool some of the more gullible (and perhaps less intelligent) posters, but I know better.





> You need to have more self-confidence in yourself and learn to think independently.





> All of my posted views are based upon personal knowledge, experience, education, and intelligence.





> It usually means that I am just smarter than most of the posters and they are limited in their ability to understand my views





> That is the beauty of being an original, independent thinker.


The last one is the best, I'll give you a 4.5/10

smeg does it better, but with some more practice you might be able to catch up.

----------


## RickThai

> Originally Posted by RickThai
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by DrB0b
> ...


Why would I waste my time going through a large number of threads looking for an answer that you could supply in a one word response?  

That would be stupid IMO, not asking you directly.

I am going to give up on you and all the other posters who "smugly" know the only correct way to spell ฝรั่ง in English as well as how it is pronounced in Thai.

Apparently the concept of variability in representing the sounds of one language in the script of another language is too subtle for you to grasp.  

I also suppose someone needs to teach all the Thais who mispronounce ฝรั่ง (according to your "farang" transliteration anyway) to pronounce the word properly with an "r" sound and an English A (short a as in father or long a as in rang- you don't specify in your 100% correct transliteration).

It must be interesting to go through life with such a narrow, regimented view of life.  Back in the 1400's I'm sure you would have argued vehemently that the world was flat.

Santi,

RickThai

----------


## DrB0b

> I also suppose someone needs to teach all the Thais who mispronounce ฝรั่ง (according to your "farang" transliteration) to pronounce the word properly.


 :mid: 



> It must be interesting to go through life with such a narrow, regimented view of life.


 :rofl: 



> Santi


 :kma:

----------


## Necron99

It doesn't really matter how you transliterate it Rick, the reality is it has only one correct pronounciation in Thai and it sounds nothing like Falong.

----------


## RickThai

> It doesn't really matter how you transliterate it Rick, the reality is it has only one correct pronounciation in Thai and it sounds nothing like Falong.


Actually, Thais (like native speakers if any language) have regional variances in how they pronounce words.  

For example, in the USA people in the south pronounce words differently than they do in the north.  Sometimes the pronunciation of local dialects is so different it can be difficult to understand.

So to make a blanket statement like "the reality is it has only one correct pronounciation in Thai and it sounds nothing like Falong" is totally inaccurate.

RickThai

----------


## taxexile

> Back in the 1970s, I always heard Thais refer to them as "dom dom poo-chai", but I haven't heard any Thais make any reference to them at all in the last 40 years.
> 
> RickThai


Shouldnt that be "dam" rather than "dom"?

----------


## nidhogg

^ :rofl:

----------


## Necron99

> Originally Posted by Necron99
> 
> 
> It doesn't really matter how you transliterate it Rick, the reality is it has only one correct pronounciation in Thai and it sounds nothing like Falong.
> 
> 
> Actually, Thais (like native speakers if any language) have regional variances in how they pronounce words.  
> 
> For example, in the USA people in the south pronounce words differently than they do in the north.  Sometimes the pronunciation of local dialects is so different it can be difficult to understand.
> ...


Some pla ra raised hillbilly on the Lao border might say it, but it is not correct.
There is a correct way to pronounce English, just as there is Thai. Regional accents are just that, accents, a deviation from the correct way to pronounce it.

----------


## RickThai

[QUOTE=Necron99;2486297.
Some pla ra raised hillbilly on the Lao border might say it, but it is not correct.
There is a correct way to pronounce English, just as there is Thai. Regional accents are just that, accents, a deviation from the correct way to pronounce it.[/QUOTE]

As determined by the "falongs" of Teakdoor?

RickThai

----------


## RickThai

> Back in the 1970s, I always heard Thais refer to them as "dom dom poo-chai", but I haven't heard any Thais make any reference to them at all in the last 40 years.
> 
> RickThai
> 			
> 		
> 
> Shouldnt that be "dam" rather than "dom"?


I've always heard it pronounced with a short (English short) 'o' but I suppose if you mixed English with Thai it could posssibly be "damn dom" depending upon the mood of the Thai person speaking.

Most English/Thai transliterations include a guide for pronouncing the English letters that quite often do not match the English grammar pronunnciation of the English letters.  I am surprised none of the linguistic "experts" haven't metioned this fact.

RickThai

----------


## taxexile

As i'm sure you know, dam means black, and according to the thai spelling, is pronounced exactly like that, dam.

Dom means something else entirely, the verb to smell something, to sniff or to inhale, and so the meaning of your phrase dom dom poochai would be quite different, unless they were suggesting that one should go and smell these folk, which I think is highly unlikely, even in 1970.

Perhaps the confusion in your interpretation has more to do with your hearing than anything else.

Maybe a hearing aid is required ??

----------


## PorYai

Apart from the romanization, since in Thai the adjective comes after the noun, shouldn't it be poo-chai dam dam?

----------


## taxexile

Yes, that also.

Perhaps a diagnosis of transliterational dyslexia should be added to that of  hard of hearing

----------


## Bobcock

If he cannot tell the difference between Dom and Dam I wonder if he constantly orders water and gets milk?

----------


## Boon Mee

> As i'm sure you know, dam means black, and according to the thai spelling, is pronounced exactly like that, dam.
> 
> Dom means something else entirely, the verb to smell something, to sniff or to inhale, and so the meaning of your phrase dom dom poochai would be quite different, unless they were suggesting that one should go and smell these folk, which I think is highly unlikely, even in 1970.
> 
> Perhaps the confusion in your interpretation has more to do with your hearing than anything else.
> 
> Maybe a hearing aid is required ??


I've never heard it pronounced 'dam'

The color black has always been vocalized to me as "dumb' not 'dam'?

Sii dumb = Black
Sii Keeeow = Green
Sii Leung = Yellow 
Sii Faa or Sii Nam neung = Blue

----------


## nidhogg

> Yes, that also.
> 
> Perhaps a diagnosis of transliterational dyslexia should be added to that of hard of hearing


Just terminial stupidity would be nearer the mark.  The whole thread was him justifying his spelling of "falong".  To me his use of the word "dom" (for black) was just him taking the piss.

If he is serious about hearing the words as "farong" and "dom", it would indicate some possible auditory/neurological damage.

However, despite the overwhelming evidence presented that the words are nearer to "farang/falang" and "dam", he will persist in his assertation that they are "falong" and "dom" - and thats a hallmark of bone deep stupidity.

----------


## Rural Surin

Dream
Teeth
Rain

In Thai....can you decipher the pronounciations?
It's all so slight to the untrained and conditioned ear - but in Thai, different from the next.

----------


## Boon Mee

> Dream
> Teeth
> Rain
> 
> In Thai....can you decipher the pronounciations?
> It's all so slight to the untrained and conditioned ear - but in Thai, different from the next.


The one I have trouble with is "Snow"

----------


## Spin

> Dream Teeth Rain





> In Thai....can you decipher the pronounciations?


Fun, Fan and fon. Not too difficult, unless you are a falong.

----------


## nidhogg

^I am sure RackThoi will be along shortly to dispute it.

----------


## taxexile

> Fun, Fan


The pronunciation of tooth and dream in thai is differentiated purely on tone, not on vowel.  both words use the same vowel, so they are both either fun or fan, depending on how you pronounce that vowel.

The hearing of those who use tonal languages seems to place more importance on the sound in the middle of the syllable, i.e. the most relevant part, the tone; whereas the important and relevant parts of non tonal languages are usually found at the beginning and end of the syllable, hence it is difficult for us to catch the tones and difficult for thais to catch the endings of english words.

Perhaps.

----------


## Spin

^ I bow to your superior understanding of the squiggles  :Smile:

----------


## Norton

> squiggles


Sometimes squiggles help. Sometimes only further confuse. :Smile: 
fà-ràng

----------


## RickThai

All of these "falong" experts on how to pronounce Thai words and the proper English transliteration, yet they all ignore how the Thais actually pronounce the words.

I have never heard a Thai say "see dam" with an 'a' (short dahm or long damn).  It always been with a short 'o' - dohm or a short 'u' duhm.

Unbelievable!

RickThai

----------


## Neverna

Rick, part of the probelm is that only you know what you hear. I think you've already said you have a hearing problem so you may hear things differently than other people. Another problem is usng transliteration and the fact that (unless I'm mistaken) you are American. Many members here are British and there are some differences between how Americans pronounce some vowels and how British people pronounce the same vowels. Take the word 'BOX'. To my ears, Americans pronounce that differently to Brits. The American sound is more like a drawn out version of "BARKS". My point is that your 'O' in 'falong' could well be the same sound (or a similar one) to a British A in 'farang'. 

Unfortunately Thais aren't consistent in their transliteration of Thai words. There is no "right way" but some ways are more common than others. 

Sonti

----------


## toddaniels

Man, you just won't give it a rest will you "RickThai"?? What you think (or imagine) you're hearing may NOT be anything remotely to what these people are actually saying. Your perception of the reality you exist in here diminishes exponentially the less Thai you happen to speak/understand.  

  As has been pointed out, these people have oh-so many regional accents even when speaking Central Thai..  I'd wager you're no more clued in than any other foreigner here is (myself included) as to how a word is really pronounced.  

  Go to one of the online dictionary sites like "thai-language dot com" or any of them which have "spoken sound files" of the words. 

Here I'll help you;
ฝรั่ง

  Listen to that sound file and tell me how it sounds to your foreign ears..    

  As far as what you think ดำ sounds like, here's the real pronunciation;
ดำ


    It could be you're hangin' around a bunch of hill-billy thais in a one buffalo village in Nakhon Nowhere, or you're oblivious to what's really being said. Dunno. 

  BTW; there is no "long "am" vowel in Thai, the vowel ำ is only a "short vowel". There is no corresponding "long vowel" for it.

  I gotta say for an alleged buddhist you're sure one bull-headed pr*ck.

----------


## RickThai

> Rick, part of the probelm is that only you know what you hear. I think you've already said you have a hearing problem so you may hear things differently than other people. Another problem is usng transliteration and the fact that (unless I'm mistaken) you are American. Many members here are British and there are some differences between how Americans pronounce some vowels and how British people pronounce the same vowels. Take the word 'BOX'. To my ears, Americans pronounce that differently to Brits. The American sound is more like a drawn out version of "BARKS". My point is that your 'O' in 'falong' could well be the same sound (or a similar one) to a British A in 'farang'. 
> 
> Unfortunately Thais aren't consistent in their transliteration of Thai words. There is no "right way" but some ways are more common than others. 
> 
> Sonti


I think you are quite right.  I am an American and I was actually thinking along the same lines this morning.  For example, Aussies tend to say, "Fahsters, Australian for bia" (at least according to the commercials in the USA). :Smile: 

One thing I have noticed is the tendency of many TD'ers to use an 'a' in place of the Thai 'u' and "um" (i.e. farang and dam).  That would certainly lend credence to your theory.

Perhaps that is why, many Thai schools seem to have a preference for American English speakers as opposed to Aussie or UK.

I have been trying to make the point of your last two statement ("Unfortunately Thais aren't consistent in their transliteration of Thai words. There is no "right way" but some ways are more common than others.") throughout this thread, but only a few seem to grasp the concept.

Cheers and Santi,

RickThai

----------


## RickThai

> Man, you just won't give it a rest will you "RickThai"?? What you think (or imagine) you're hearing may NOT be anything remotely to what these people are actually saying. Your perception of the reality you exist in here diminishes exponentially the less Thai you happen to speak/understand.  
> 
>   As has been pointed out, these people have oh-so many regional accents even when speaking Central Thai..  I'd wager you're no more clued in than any other foreigner here is (myself included) as to how a word is really pronounced.  
> 
>   Go to one of the online dictionary sites like "thai-language dot com" or any of them which have "spoken sound files" of the words. 
> 
> Here I'll help you;
> ฝรั่ง
> 
> ...


According to my wife (who is an educated Thai and speaks, reads, and writes Thai and English fluently), there is no 'a' sound in either dam or the last syllable in farang.  They use 'um' and 'u' respectively.

As for as "short" and "long" I was referring to short and long vowels as they apply to English grammar not Thai grammar (which, as you apparently know, means totally different things).

And, as a Buddhist I take absolutely no offense to your inappropriate comment about me.

Santi,

RickThai

----------


## Necron99

^ An Australian wouldn't say Fosters because we don't drink it.
If they did, it would be pronounced to rhyme with Lost. And beer would rhyme with deer.

Why don't you go listen to some speaking Thai audio dictionaries.

----------


## Necron99

> According to my wife (who is an educated Thai and speaks, reads, and writes Thai and English fluently), there is no 'a' sound in either dam or the last syllable in farang.  They use 'um' and 'u' respectively.
> 
> As for as "short" and "long" I was referring to short and long vowels as they apply to English grammar not Thai grammar (which, as you apparently know, means totally different things).
> 
> And, as a Buddhist I take absolutely no offense to your inappropriate comment about me.
> 
> Santi,
> 
> RickThai


So your wife who is fluent tells you it is farung, but you insist it is fahrong...?

----------


## RickThai

> .
> So your wife who is fluent tells you it is farung, but you insist it is fahrong...?


No I actually prefer "falong", but that is just my preference. (And anyone who has spent anytime at all in Thailand talking with Thai people, knows that they often use 'l' instead of 'r' in everyday speech for a number of Thai words.)

RickThai

----------


## taxexile

I think, rick thai, that the video linked to below should clarify your argument once and for all.

----------


## kingwilly

> Unbelievable!
> 
> RickThai


Yep.
.

----------


## toddaniels

I think this says it better;



What we think we hear and what the other person is saying doesn't always work out even when both people are speaking English...

----------


## kingwilly

> Rick, part of the probelm is that only you know what you hear. I think you've already said you have a hearing problem so you may hear things differently than other people. Another problem is usng transliteration and the fact that (unless I'm mistaken) you are American. Many members here are British and there are some differences between how Americans pronounce some vowels and how British people pronounce the same vowels. Take the word 'BOX'. To my ears, Americans pronounce that differently to Brits. The American sound is more like a drawn out version of "BARKS". My point is that your 'O' in 'falong' could well be the same sound (or a similar one) to a British A in 'farang'. 
> 
> Unfortunately Thais aren't consistent in their transliteration of Thai words. There is no "right way" but some ways are more common than others. 
> 
> Sonti


Fairly good point.

----------


## UpTheDownSpoutWetRat

> I always like to use falong as the English transliteration for the Thai word (slang) commonly used to refer to a Western foreigner.  A few posters repeatedly whine about my incorrect transliteration, since farang is commonly used by many.
> 
> Although I have patiently explained numerous times, that I prefer falong because it sounds (to me anyway) much closer to how Thais generally pronounce the word, my explanation is not enough for an obstinate few, who call me out for my use of that transliteration almost every time I use it (I suppose they live a rather unfulfilling life of low self-esteem and attempt to inflate their egos however they can).
> 
> Nonetheless, I decided to look into this transliteration (which is often transliterated as farung in many Thai-English dictionaries). 
> 
> In Thai script the word is  ฝรั่ง.  This maps to the following Thai alphabet (as taken from a Thai elementary school primer and transliterated as used in Teach Yourself Thai by David Smith):
> 
> First we will look at the three consonants:
> ...


FARANG IS N O T  SLANG!

But regarding romanization, the best system is the one you can see if you borrow the Paiboon dictionary.

This system is similar to others, and I don't think anyone should be CONGRATUALTED for devising it.  This was a collective effort.

The vowels are doubled for long, and single for short.

Paiboon probably has a website around here someplace, and you can compare that system with another.

If you want my opinion about what most of you are stating here regarding the advantages of one romanization system over another, and the way things sound to different foreigners, etc etc, I think this is obviously a huge pile of hogwash.

I don't think any of you have any background in Linguistics or Phonology, and it shows, BIG TIME.

The test of a good romanization system is that it can efficiently represent all the sounds in a langauge, and do it in a way so that nothing is ambiguous, and can eaily typed and printed.  There are probably a few other good considerations to consider, also, but you would need to refer to the scholarly literature, something which none of you have chosen to do yet.

----------


## chassamui

In the south of Thailand the common Thai phraseology is Farang. Occasionally you might hear Falang. Possibly a Chinese Thai influence, given the Chinese inability to get the tongue around the letter R.

Bottom line is Lick Thai is a dumbfuck  with learning difficulties and potentially special needs, so we should probably make allowances for him. Having said that, you might also wish to take into account his innate stupidity and backward thinking in general.

----------


## toddaniels

> First we will look at the three consonants:
> 
> ฝ ฝา  fo fan  A middle class consonant that has an f sound when used at the beginning of a Thai word. 
> 
> ร เรือ  ro rua A middle class consonant that has an r sound 
> 
> ง งู  ngo ngu A middle class consonant that has an ng sound.
> 
> Now for the interesting part, the vowel.
> ...


Not the sharpest tool in the shed there with Thai are you Rick? 
(BTW: all the thai words in this post are linked)

Just so we (as in everyone else but Rick) are clear on this; the vowel symbol in ฝรั่ง is ั.  The symbol is called a ไม้หันอากาศ Go read the meaning..

You will see that it's actually the exact same vowel sound as ะ. However ะ can only be used when it's the final sound in a syllable (known as an open syllable). For words which have that vowel sound and have a final consonant the vowel morphs into the ั, but carries the same sound.  

Here's a chart which compares the sounds of thai vowels roughly to English;
thai-language.com - Rules for Transliterating English Vowels (into Thai) 
The second listing shown as อะ is the one you want which they list as the "a" sound in aluminium.

I honestly gotta ask you Rick; what version of thai are you studying?  
Last time I checked;
ฝอ ฝา is a high class consonant; (you guessed wrong that it was mid class)

รอ เรีอ is a low class consonant; (you guessed wrong that it was a mid class)

งอ งู is a low class consonant too; (once again, wrong guess)

That means you got ALL three of the consonant classes in that word WRONG; so you're not quite batting 1000 with your language ability. I will give you some points for getting the tone mark rule right. But that's about it man..

I'm 100% sure that the vowel in the thai word ฝรั่ง ISN'T a "sila u" <sic> (by sila I suppose you mean สระ . 

If I were you, I'd go back and hit those thai text books again. I mean, keep at it, your determination is admirable even if you don't appear to know shit from Shinola when it comes to thai.

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## chassamui

In Ricks case, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Especially when you have such a small space to keep it in and you lack basic comprehension skills.

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## nidhogg

> In Ricks case, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Especially when you have such a small space to keep it in and you lack basic comprehension skills.


 
This is a person who sees no conflict between espousing "buddism", and shooting people in the head.

Got to be fairly _special_ for that...

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## SonOfGod

This whole debate here is very clear proof that having a formal education with an understanding of pedagogy is valuable if you wish to say anything about the study of Thai, which makes sense.
Some fools can be mislead into thinking they can study on their own and learn what they should know.  They never take any tests, quizzes or exams, and so they never find out if the level of learning they achieved is actually what they thought.

Why does this guy Rick have such a poor reputation around here?
Last time, one another thread, it was the same thing, just many people seeming to gang up on him.

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## Norton

> In Ricks case, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.


Here ya go Rick. Enjoy.

ศานติ

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## GeorgeWashingCarver

> All of these "falong" experts on how to pronounce Thai words and the proper English transliteration, yet they all ignore how the Thais actually pronounce the words.
> 
> I have never heard a Thai say "see dam" with an 'a' (short dahm or long damn).  It always been with a short 'o' - dohm or a short 'u' duhm.
> 
> Unbelievable!
> 
> RickThai


I came first to the language section hoping to find good Thai language advice.  But, what did I find but this, a copy of which I post.

The problem with this is that the romanization is not supposed to reflect the closest possible approximation to the actual spoken sound, as spoken by native speakers.

If Rick thinks this, then he is TOTALLY mistaken.

The romanization is supposed to be only a close APPROXIMATION of the actual sounds which they refer to.

Here is an example of this in the best romanization system for Mandarin CHinese:

Xin means "heart", or it refers to the spoken word in CHinese.  But no one would know from looking at the letters XIN what sound this might be.

When you learn a system of romanization, you need to first learn the phonology of the language, the sounds of the language, and then you map the sounds to the romanization.

The romanization normally used in for Thai has nothing to do with how the letter should sound to the English speaker.

The learner just learns the sound in Thai, Pom, meaning Hair, and that these sounds are represented by the letters Pom.  The success of a romanization system has nothing to do with how closely the romanization might help the English speaker to look at the romanization and then voice the correct sounds of Thai. 

How stupid would that be!

You learn the sounds of Thai, and then you devise some combination of letter to represent those sounds, but the successful romanization should be equally useful to native speakers of CHinese, English, French, Russion, or another language.

Does Rick actually know what a romanized alphabet is designed to do?

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## Bobcock

The system of transliteration that the Thai Government consider the official version is designed not to help Western speakers but to help the Thai reader see the difference between the consonants that came from Sanskrit and the consonants that came from Pali.

One example of this is the redundant vowels at the end of certain words that come from Pali.... e.g. Suwarnabhum_i_

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## GeorgeWashingCarver

> The system of transliteration that the Thai Government consider the official version is designed not to help Western speakers but to help the Thai reader see the difference between the consonants that can from Sanskrit and the consonants that came from Pali.
> 
> One example of this is the redundant vowels at the end of certain words that come from Pali.... e.g. Suwarnabhum_i_


I am very glad that at least someone besides myself understands this important function of romanization.

This same principle is used in Red CHina where the Gov uses PinYin to introduce Chinese students to their Chinese CHaracters.

Before that, you had WadeGiles, for example, which was designed for Farang to learn Chinese.  I think Wade Giles project was done at Yale, or some other school.

But right you are that the romanization is NOT for English speakers to use, it is for EVERYONE to use.

So, people such as Rick, who think that the romanized system should help English learners learn Thai pronunciation is just a load of crappola.

So much for formal learning....
Either you got it, or you don't, I guess.

And too many just don't got it.

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## toddaniels

One last thing to point out (although at this point I'm clearly beating a dead whore, err beating a dead horse); the book "Teach yourself Thai" is actually authored by Dr David Smyth NOT Smith.  I wonder if Rick even has the book or not?

As far as phonemic transcription (called erroneously romanization, transliteration) but what I call "karaoke thai" or thai represented in a combination of english and special characters to denote sounds not easily represented in the english alphabet. The best one going is clearly Benjawan Becker's version called Paiboon or Paiboon Plus. Once you understand what symbols make what sounds you're pretty good at getting close enough to thai so a native speaker can understand you. I know a LOT of people who learned to speak pretty clear thai yet can't read a character of thai via Benjawan's books and her karaoke system..   

Just so we're clear that "official Thai government version" of Karaoke is total crap; no difference in vowel length, no symbols for intonation, no symbol to show a silent letter. It's one reason why Suvarnabhumi is spelled so squirrelly. They are representing every character in the thai spelling สุวรรณภูมิ even if the character is silent..

Despite "Bobcock" saying so; NO the romanization of thai or the half assed way they spell thai on signage here wasn't designed to help frickin' thais, because thais already read thai!! Any thai who can read knows the orgin of the word by looking at the thai characters that make it up. NO thai in the country could look at the english rendition of a thai word and make the leap in logic to know whether it came from pali, sanskrit, ancient thai, cambodian, chinese, or was an imported american word. Unless I'm mistaken the system was designed solely so foreigners could read street signs here, when this country tried to modernize.

Well, when it comes to the thai language, I must fall into that category of "some fools can be mislead into thinking they can study on their own".

Almost 100% of my thai language knowledge is self taught, via books, language learning c/d's, etc. A couple years ago I had a thai teacher friend who teaches thai in a public school here give me every test in the Thai language that's given to thai students attending school. I took the reading, writing and multiple choice tests.  I started at kindergarten and managed to make it all the way up to ป.๕ (that's thai fifth grade) before I crapped out; as in didn't get a passing mark.  

Mostly that was because I didn't really learn a lotta words with irregular spelling unless I was gonna use them when I spoke or wrote thai. I'm funny that way, but I believe my brain has limited hard drive space so I don't wanna clog it up learning bullshit words I'm never gonna say or write.  Granted, I've probably gotten a little better now,  but it's been a tough 6+ year slog acquiring enough language proficiency to talk to these people day in day out. 

Honestly, I dunno why Rick has a poor reputation around here
ซานตาคลอส 

Sorry for the off-topic post...   :mid:

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## Bobcock

> Despite "Bobcock" saying so; NO the romanization of thai or the half assed way they spell thai on signage here wasn't designed to help frickin' thais


Dear Todd, 

Your rather faux outrage has been noted but you are wrong and I shall explain some more. I was on a phone yesterday so kept it short.

Now these are facts whether you like them or not, I have no opinion as to the user friendliness of the system, but it is the one I try to use.

The system of Romanisation of Thai words was devised by King Vajiravudh or King Rama IV who updated a system that was in place since 1893 to become the official system as used today.

The Thai language was influenced from both Sanskrit and Pali but also gained from both Burmese and Khmer.

This system aims to differentiate the Thai words borrowed from Sanskrit and Pali (and the consonants used, remember Thai has many consonants that sound the same to us and seem redundant) Borrowed words are transliterated with the original spelling of the source word, nothing to do with the sound. This makes the source word easy to recognise for the Thai language speaker, or in truth, one might say expert as I'm sure many native Thai speakers don't know or understand this either.

Like most systems developed, they are produced by scholars for scholars and the ordinary folk of the day would not have a clue.

The system was developed when King Vajiravudh bestowed about 6,500 family names to members of the Royal Family, military, government officials, i.e. the great and the good of the day. People who needed Romanisations of their names.
This had nothing to do with how westerners needed to learn to speak the language, in fact it is recognised that many bear skant relation to the way they are pronounced, however understand the system and you will benefit from it.

It is reckoned that in about 75% of the words that end in a vowel, that vowel is redundant.

Suwarnabhumi
Shinawatra
Vajrodaya

As for Rikc Thai, myself I have no problem that he or any other people transliterate the way they do. I have words that I would spell differently. People should do what they are comfortable with. When he writes falong, I know what he means. I think people just don't like him.

For me it's farang, there cannot be an l in the official spelling as the consonant is 'ro rua' it doesn't matter that ones girlfriend cannot pronounce her r's, it is an r each and every time it is written, but if someone wants to write falang, what's the big deal.

Now isn't that a bit more informative that your crass dismissal of what I said?

_Edit: References: I have no direct source for this that I can link, I wrote this with information gained from several pieces but I can reference Prof Wirote Aroonmamakun PhD, Dept of Linguistics at Chulalongkorn University, Prof Dr Sidtha Pinitpouvadal, Doctorat (Lettres) d'Universitie de Paris (Sorbonne) and Sunee Siidao, a writer who's qualifications I do not know._

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## Bobcock

Oh and yes I do realise that when I touched on this earlier in the thread I said it was devised by King Chulalongkorn. He did have a lot to do with the system of Romanisation, but the final definitive version was By King Vajiravudh. So I made an error at that time.

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## toddaniels

I didn't mean to crassly dismiss your opinion, nor was I outraged even fauxly by your post.  I just disagree with the premise of why, who and what it was developed for; no matter what the approved version of the story is, or what initials your sources have in front of or after their names. (That stuff just doesn't impress me in the least, sorry)..  

That's okay, because we both agree on the fact that the system is totally worthless looking at words from a non-native speakers perspective.  That was the primary point I was trying to make. 

Honestly, it's as worthless as a three balled billy goat (which other than the novelty factor, ain't all that useful).. It's also pretty worthless for Somchai the average thai on the street too, but that's for them to hash out not me.  

We do agree on the fact that this language has 6-T's (ฐ, ฑ, ฒ, ถ, ท, ธ), 5-K's (ข, ฃ, ค, ฅ, ฆ) and 4-S's (ซ, ศ, ษ, ส) and on the fact that those different characters almost always show where the word originated.  My question is; how would a Thai know which of the 6 T characters in Thai was represented with the English T in a romanized Thai word?  Short answer; I think they wouldn't have a clue..

Still your post was interesting and another tidbit of useless information I'll file away in my brain in case someone asks me about it..

Again, I meant no outright disrespect to you, your opinions or your sources, I just don't buy it. But that's just me, I'm a hard sell. 

Thanx

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## taxexile

interesting stuff.

i had thought that romanisation of thai was developed when thais were considering abandoning their alphabet in order to change over to using the latin alphabet.

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## Bobcock

Todd

You faux toughness is noted......

we disagree on one thing.....




> we both agree on the fact that the system is totally worthless looking at words from a non-native speakers perspective.


I don't think it is worthless... I said




> understand the system and you will benefit from it.


but it is wasted on most of you........

That's me being faux pompous again.

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## sabang

Santi.

falang/ farang/ falong is Arabic, anyway.


Santi. Shukran. Shalom.

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## Bobcock

Persian according to the above soources, although I think we can all agree the Thais have made it very much their own....

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## sabang

Then the rabs prolly borrowed it off the persians (heck, our word 'paradise' we stole form them)- the word was spread through SE asia by arab traders, coming down the malayan peninsula and on to Indonesia. they were the first 'farangs'- or ferringhi, as the say in malaysia. it just means foreigner in original language, as i understand it, and 'farang' & 'foreigner' may well be linguistically related too.

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## Bobcock

they weren't Arabs, they were Persians, the Farsi word for foeigner was farangi.

they also spread a similar version down Ethiopia way.....

Funny cos i have a mate who is Ethiopean and he looks cleary Persian....ish

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## toddaniels

There is no reason to waste the slightest bit of time learning to understand their (as in the thais) government approved version of karaoke. Understanding the system won't make you even marginally better in speaking, reading or understanding Thai.. 

As I have pointed out, there's no difference in long short vowels, no intonation, and no silent character marker. 

I stand by my assertion that it's totally worthless!

Alas, that means we must agree to disagree on everything but the pronunciation of what I call "the F word" here.. (which BTW is ฝรั่ง).

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## Bobcock

> I stand by my assertion that it's totally worthless!


Keep standing.... matters not a jot to me

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## DrB0b

> It is reckoned that in about 75% of the words that end in a vowel, that vowel is redundant.


It's not redundant. It modifies the tone.



> matters not a jot to me


With you there. Still, it's fun stirring up the wanklets.

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## Bobcock

Agreed, sorry I meant to the Western reader with no knowledge of the system.

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## Neverna

> Originally Posted by Bobcock
> 
> It is reckoned that in about 75% of the words that end in a vowel, that vowel is redundant.
> 
> 
> It's not redundant. It modifies the tone.


Hi DrBob
Really? Can you give some examples, please?

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## toddaniels

Sorry this is long, stick with it, if you can;

Well, there Bobcock; feel free to keep your oh-so dark rose colored glasses on and make sure your blinders are tightened down to the degree you can't see the big picture. It seems to work for  you.. I mean who am I to piss in your iced Chang beer?  

As far as DrBob's post saying that the silent character is not redundant and modifies the tone.. After a quick perusal thru a Thai dictionary, I must disagree;

Actually the "silent vowel" over usually a final consonant doesn't affect the tone of the word one iota (or not any word I could find which wasn't a compound word where the final consonant comes "alive" when it's combined with another word). It mostly shows Thais that the word came from Sanskrit or Pali origin..

The intonation of Thai words are primarily governed by 4 things; 
1 - class of the beginning consonant 
2 - short or long vowel 
3 - "live" (open) or "dead" (closed) endings 
4 - tone mark (if any)

Examples; 
ชาติ (the word for "national; of a nation; race; of a country") but the ิ above the last character is totally silent, and plays NO role in the tone of the word.  In phonemic Thai (the thai used in thai dictionaries) it's; ชาด, in Benjawan Becker's Paiboon it's; châat, and in RTGS; the government's official system (NOT the version they use on signage) it's; chat 

สุวรรณภูมิ (the name of the airport); again the ิ over the ม, plays NO role in the tone of the last syllable; ภูมิ. Phonemic Thai shows it as; สุ-วัน-นะ-พูม, Benjawan's Paiboon shows it as; sù wan ná puum, RTGS shows it as; suwannaphum, yet all the signage scattered around the city shows it as Suvarnabhumi (even though Thai doesn't even have a fricking "V" in their alphabetic system! The closest they can get it it is ว which is a "W" and is actually the character used in the word)

ประพฤติ (the word for "behave, act, conduct oneself) in Phonemic Thai is; ปฺระ-พฺรึด, in Paiboon it's; bprà prʉ́t and RTGS it's; praphruet..

ประวัติ the word for "history; record; story; account; chronicle" in Phonemic Thai is; ปฺระ-หฺวัด, Paiboon; bprà wàt and RTGS; prawat. However the tone of the second syllable is วัติ is governed by the first syllable of this word as it follows a some what obscure rule; 


> "In some disyllabic words, when the first syllable has mid- or high-class initial and the second is dead with a low-class initial, the tone of the second syllable is determined from the first syllable."


It is interesting to note that leaving off the silent ิ on the 4 words I listed wouldn't change the intonation of the syllables in the least. ชาติ spelled as ชาต would still be pronounced with a falling tone. The last syllable of สุวรรณภูมิ if spelled as ภูม would still be a mid tone. The second syllable of ประพฤติ if spelled as พฤต would still be high toned and finally the second syllable of ประวัติ if spelled as วัต would still follow the sometimes used rule I quoted and be a low tone. So you see; having a silent vowel above the last character didn't change the tone rule for ANY of those syllables.

IF there are examples where the tone is affected by a silent vowel over the last character (where the word doesn't have ไม้ทัณฑฆาต; the mark ์ silencing a letter called a การันต์) I'd like to see it.  I'm totally open to the concept, I just couldn't think of any where this actually happens..

Again, sorry this was a long post..

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## sabang

> ชาติ spelled as ชาต would still be pronounced with a falling tone.


wow, ya don't say :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): . impressed by your knowledge of thai script though tod.

impressed by the list of English words from Persian/Farsi, as well- to bring this rather convoluted thread back to the farang thing.

Words as diverse as balcony, serendibity, paradise, alfalfa, carafe, tulip, peach, india, and seersucker.
List of English words of Persian origin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We should study Persian history more.  :Smile:

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## Bobcock

I started reading Todd's long post, but after a few lines I realised he was talking about the Thai script and not what we were talking about which was the Romanization of the Thai script according to the official system.

So I stopped reading.

What I will say is this, I don't have any belief that it is a great system, sure certain language courses designed to teach foreigners how to speak are far better, I used the Linguaphone system when I started and Tood quotes Paiboon.

I also stated that subject of the OP (RickThai?) as far as I am concerned can use what he likes, I understand what he is trying to say as to most of the people who want to drag with over the coals. I also stated that I have my own particular way of spelling things as does anyone else.

All I have stated is that there (whether Todd likes it or not) is an official system and what it's true purpose was when it was developed......

So Todd, I ain't wearing specs, I am in fact wearing contact lenses and I certainly do not drink Chang beer under any circumstances, iced or not. I'm sure there was some smarmy veiled insult in that reference but sadly I don't know what it is........

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## toddaniels

Sorry I was answering Dr Bob's post about final ending consonants with superscript yet silent vowels changing the tone..  

I have noticed on this forum that topics can wind their way off the O/P's post with little or no restraint... I knew it'd be too much for most people to wade thru.. 

No harm no foul.. 

OFF TOPIC (but marginally of interest);
The whacky pronunciation versus spelling that English suffers from results from only one reason! 

English speakers ain't afraid to "steal" (borrow) ANY word from ANY language if we think we have a use for it.

Thai is getting better at "stealing" words than they used to be. They're called "loan words" in Thai; ทับศัพท์. That means taking a word from another language and spelling it in Thai like; ซูชี sushi, การันตี guarantee, เก็ท get, เคลียร์ clear, ดริ๊งค์ drink, โคโยตี้ coyote (like the dancers), เพนท์ paint, เวิก work, เมคเซ้นส์ make sense, เมคเลิฟ make love, ออกัสซั่ม orgasm, ออรัลเซ็กส์ oral sex, ดิลโด้ dildo, ดูเร็กซ์ Durex, along with most words which are related to the IT field.. 

The powers that be (as in the dinosaurs who try to control which words officially are adopted into Thai) are pulling out their hair, because the thai kids of today are "borrowing" words as fast as they can. Forums where thais post in thai are over flowing with english words (spelled in thai)...

Thais are also famous for taking an English word (usually a word with two or more syllables); then cutting it down to just a single syllable. 
แป๊ก back; the first syllable in "backfire" 
เมนท์ ment; the last syllable in "comment" 
เฟิร์ม firm; the last syllable in "confirm" 
โอ oh; the first syllable in "okay"
โป๊ po; the first syllable in porn (racy, sexy, etc)
เอ็กซ์ X; the fist word in x-rated (xxx), 

To me, it's quite interesting to hear English words creeping into the newscasts on Thai t/v. I heard มันไม่เวิก, มันไม่เมคเซ้นส์ which is "it doesn't work, it doesn't make sense" on this morning's news about something or other..

Anyway I know it was way OFF TOPIC, sorry.. pary on dudes  ::chitown:: 

Oh BTW: I ain't picking on anyone in particular.. I'm an "equal opportunity disparager"... That's just how I roll...

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## Marmite the Dog

> To me, it's quite interesting to hear English words creeping into the newscasts on Thai t/v.


Not a great shock seeing as up tp 25% of everyday Thai is derived from English.

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## toddaniels

Even as little as 9 years ago I almost NEVER heard English words spoken by thais who were speaking thai like I hear now.  Except perhaps by that limited demographic of thai women who make their living in the seedier foreign patronized areas (by that I mean thai whores).

I dunno if I agree with "Marmite the Dog" and the statement that 25% of everyday thai is derived from English.. But there is a lot more english being mixed in with thai nowadays.

Still, the topic of the O/P was how to romanize the word ฝรั่ง or what I call "the F word".. 

Personally, I go outta my way to never use it speaking thai when referring to myself or other foreigners. On rare occasions, I'll use บักสีดา (the Isaan word for guava) in jest. However, when I tell thais I speak thai with a foreign accent, I always use ชาวต่างชาติ/คนต่างชาติ, ชาวต่างประเทศ or informally มะกัน (what thais call americans).. 

Write it in engrish however you wanna, and in fact go ahead and pronounce it with an L instead of an R if that's how your significant thai other does, I don't care and I'd wager neither will the thais. 

For christ sakes; if you're gonna argue how it's spelled/pronounced in thai at least try to get your ducks in a row and quacking in time before you quote totally wrong facts about it's pronunciation like RickThai.

ซานตาคลอส <- Santa Claus

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## nidhogg

> Write it in engrish however you wanna, and in fact go ahead and pronounce it with an L instead of an R if that's how your significant thai other does, I don't care and I'd wager neither will the thais. 
> 
> For christ sakes; if you're gonna argue how it's spelled/pronounced in thai at least try to get your ducks in a row and quacking in time before you quote totally wrong facts about it's pronunciation like RickThai.


Todd, you know a million times more thai than I, and so I am not really throwing my hat in the ring - except to say (!) the thread was not about whether the word has a r or an l sound, it was about the second vowel sound which for every other person in the world seems to be an "a" or a "u" sound, but for rickthai it is an "o" sound:





> I always like to use falong as the English transliteration for the Thai word (slang) commonly used to refer to a Western foreigner. A few posters repeatedly whine about my incorrect transliteration, since farang is commonly used by many.
> 
> Although I have patiently explained numerous times, that I prefer falong because it sounds (to me anyway) much closer to how Thais generally pronounce the word,

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## toddaniels

You are correct "nidhogg"; the the R/L switch so common here was not a topic of this pronunciation debacle err debate :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): .

I stand humbly erected  :mid: ... errr humbly corrected... :Smile: 

Sorry about that.. . . .

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## robuzo

> Even as little as 9 years ago I almost NEVER heard English words spoken by thais who were speaking thai like I hear now.  Except perhaps by that limited demographic of thai women who make their living in the seedier foreign patronized areas (by that I mean thai whores).


The more the general run of Thais see knowledge of English as indicative of education and worldliness, the more we'll be hearing not just English loan words but entire loan phrases used not just among the intelligentsia but in the mass media, etc. as well. If the Japanese (and Russian) experience is any indication a great many of these will take on meanings of their own and become opaque not only to native English speakers but to non-native speakers of Thai as well, not to mention that since such words are often employed as jargon or slang, native Thai speakers who are not part of the "in" group will also often be flummoxed. The Japanese use of English words is the number one cause of consternation for this J to E translator, but since I've decided not to be too _serious_ about Thai (in an attempt to preserve what remains of my sanity) when it comes to the transliteration free-for-all that is romanized Thai orthography, _I mai care_. 

By the way, toddd, "fricking 'V'"- nice one.

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