#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Doing Things Legally >  >  Loaning money to a Thai secured against a Channote...

## Listerman

I would appreciate some advice regarding this (presently hypothetical) situation.......

My wife who lives with me in the UK, has a younger brother presently studying for a law degree at Tamesat University, upon completion of this degree and final grades permitting. He wants to come to the UK to study for a one year MSc in International Law (I myself fail to see how this qualification is relevant to Thai law  :mid: ).

My wife (and to a lesser degree her family) are pressing me for a loan to cover his stay in the UK, which will cover: course fees, traveling expenses, study materials, and any other incidental costs. I live quite close to the intended place of study, so he will live rent free in my house.

On prevoius occasions I have lent my wife money interest free (to bridge the gap) when buying land in her village, the money has always been repaid in full by the agreed date. This time however the amount involved takes it to a whole new level.

The brother is the youngest of a family of five siblings, the rest are elder sisters. 
He is by Thai standards very intelligent, however he also exhibits most of the well known and typical Thai male traits, mainly due to his familly all doting on him, with new clothes, new phone, new laptop, new tablet computer, new moped, etc, etc, all been provided on tap courtesy of his sisters. From what I hear and see, now that he is a student they also give him a monthly allowance, which from his Facebook page seems to fund quite a hectic social life.

My wife has a number of part time jobs, the income from which she is proposing to repay his loan herself, which will place her under considerable financial strain when taken with other financial commitments she is already honouring, and will take her some considerable time to repay. I am also concerned it will become a cause of friction between us.

My proposal is to loan the brother the money, interest will be charged for the loan duration (at a competitive rate and lower than say Thai Farmer bank), the loan will be secured against a Channote (the channote is worth approx 4 x the loan value, the land is the property of two of the sisters, and until the loan is repaid the channote will reside with me in the UK). It is my intention that the brother will repay me the loan (and not my wife) this will teach him the true value of money, and also it will introduce for him to a degree of financial responsibility he has previously not experienced to date.

My wife works tirelessly for the benefit of her familly back in Thailand, and has on numerous occasions given over money which she knows will never be repaid. This is one more financial burden she does not need, but Thai thinking is at present preventing her from seeing this.

As you can well imagine my proposal has not been well recieved, however as far as I am concerned this is a take it or leave it offer.

Do you think I am been fair ? how would I go about tieing the debt to the channote ? and is this practical ?

Thanks in anticipation of your carefully considered responses.

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## chassamui

I think Failsafe knows all about this. He's sort of unofficial head of TD farang mafia.  :Wink:

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## Mid

ffs it is a loan that will never be repaid .

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## liveinlos

Loaning money that is never repaid is always the beginning of the end. To think you will teach a young Thai male to be responsible with money? You already lost that one. If he was responsible he wouldn't have all those expensive things at the expense of someone else working and paying for them.

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## Gerbil

The debt has to be recorded on the back of the chanote and registered at the land office. You also have to pay stamp duty on the value of the loan.

Practically although as a foreigner, because you cannot take possession of the land in the event of a default, most land department offices will refuse to allow this. 

You will need to use a lawyer who will draw up a contract which will enforce the sale of the land if necessary.

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## Thetyim

Holding the Chanote is not much security.
It is possible to report it lost and get another one issued.
You can never sell the land because you can't sign the sale agreement.

Unless there is a way to get the Chanote legally stamped as being subject to a loan then I wouldn't go down that road.

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## superman

You're getting confused as to what 'Chanote's are. Anything regarding title papers and loans, stay clear of. That's the job for lawyers and banks.

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## can123

Don't lend the money. He just wants to continue his student life at your expense. The qualification would not be worth much anyway and, as you say, of no use in Thailand. 

Another point to consider is the fact that a British university is willing to accept a Thai student with a first degree. I wouldn't have thought that any Thai degree would have been adequate preparation for a real Masters course. Is the university running "Mickey Mouse" courses just to earn money ? A lot of that sort of thing has happened, the University of Cardiff being a prime example. It blagged itself out of existence.

Convince the family that he would be better of with a Thai second degree, which he could do part time and pay for himself.

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## Orroz

> ffs it is a loan that will never be repaid .


True, but he does have the channote. The question is how can he legally keep it and what turmoil will it cause in the family if he does.

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## helge

> I am also concerned it will become a cause of friction between us.


Seems it already have

You are in a lose-lose situation

Suggest to the family to sell some land

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## superman

> the land is the property of two of the sisters, and until the loan is repaid the channote will reside with me in the UK).


And what will that achieve? I'll tell you, Jack Shit. The only difficulty it will impose on the sisters is they can't sell it. But they can still farm it. A bit of advice from a person who got shit on through a land paper loan.

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## FailSafe

> I think Failsafe knows all about this. He's sort of unofficial head of TD farang mafia.


I wouldn't say that, but I know a little bit.

After doing your due diligence and making sure the property doesn't have any loans or liens against it, there's a power-of-attorney form you can get from the land office which will give the lender (in this case you) the right to take over and/or sell the land on a certain date- the land owners(s) have to sign it- EVERYBODY needs to sign if there is more than one owner- if one refuses, you can't do the deal- you'll also need signed copies of ID cards, tambien baan, etc.  Obviously you will hold the original chanote.

Since you will be charging less than current interest rates, you can also set up a legally binding contract with the exact details of the loan, payment schedule, and interest rate (there's a way to do also do it 'legally' if you're charging a higher rate, but that's not an issue here).

Essentially, if the land owner defaults on the loan, you can present your contract to the land office as an agreed-upon paid bill-of-sale after a certain date- obviously most of the trust and risk is on the part of the borrower, and an unscrupulous lender could cause problems- most of these contracts are done between people who know each other fairly well or with a lender that has a good reputation.

If you're lending money at 50% or less of the land valuation, you're in a very good position, but dealing with family comes with its own set of problems...

This would all need to be in your wife's or some other Thais name- you can't do it in your name as a foreigner.

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## superman

> Obviously you will hold the original chanote.


You, along with others, need to understand what Chanote means. It doesn't mean title papers. 


> Land title deeds in Thailand are divided into 4 categories as follows:
> 
> 1.         Freehold Title Deed (Chanote or Nor Sor 4)
> 
> This  type of title grants the holder of this document the full right over  the land. The holder has absolute authority over the land. Thus, if you  are planning to buy land in Thailand, this type of title deed is the  best option.
> 
> 2.         Nor Sor 3 Gor 
> 
> A  land awaiting a full title deed is granted the document Nor Sor 3 Kor.  The land is measured by the Land Department; therefore, it has its exact  boundaries. The owner knows exactly what he owns. This type of land may  be sold, transferred, or mortgaged, as a land with freehold title deed  (Chanote). The owner of the land may file a petition to the Land  Department demanding to change it to a full title deed (Chanote), and  the Land Department may do so if there is no opposition made against the  petition.
> ...


https://teakdoor.com/doing-things-leg...te-or-not.html

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## ChrisM

the sisters will never let you call in the loan.

either pay or tell them to fok off... in a polite Thai way. IE say yes with a smile but always have an excuse for not fronting the cash.

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## nidhogg

> I would appreciate some advice regarding this (presently hypothetical) situation.......
> 
> My wife who lives with me in the UK, has a younger brother presently studying for a law degree at Tamesat University, upon completion of this degree and final grades permitting. He wants to come to the UK to study for a one year MSc in International Law (I myself fail to see how this qualification is relevant to Thai law ).


Of course it is relevent.  Even Thai companies have contracts etc with international companies.  Such a qualification would be a definate "edge" in the employment market.







> On prevoius occasions I have lent my wife money interest free (to bridge the gap) when buying land in her village, the money has always been repaid in full by the agreed date.


Every marriage is different.  Personally, I find the notion of lending my wife money strange, but different folks different for different folks, and what works for you......







> This time however the amount involved takes it to a whole new level.
> 
> 
> My proposal is to loan the brother the money,
> 
> 
> 
> My wife works tirelessly for the benefit of her familly back in Thailand, and has on numerous occasions given over money which she knows will never be repaid.


Your wife knows the scene - between family, "loans" are often (not always) written off - even before the money is handed over.  





> This is one more financial burden she does not need, but Thai thinking is at present preventing her from seeing this.


Family places enormous burdens on Thais, especially the "responsible" ones....





> As you can well imagine my proposal has not been well recieved, however as far as I am concerned this is a take it or leave it offer.


"take it or leave it" seldoms works well - its your marriage, but I would look for an acceptable solution, rather than take it or leave it.

Personally (note, personally) - I would look at what I could "throw into the pot" so to speak - you are talking free board and lodging - maybe a contribution to tuition fee etc - then be clear - this is what we can afford and I am giving it as a gift.  You say your wife works etc, what she throws in is up to her.

There is a saying along the lines of:  If some one asks you for 1,000 dollars as a loan, give them 100 dollars as a gift - you will be much happier in the long run.

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## FailSafe

^^^

I know what it is- you still need to keep the original chanote (assuming that's the level of the deed- I think you're making an issue of the terminology- chanote, nor sor sam, etc- pretty much anything except tor bor ha will work- 'chanote' is a catch-all phrase referring to the land title paper- this is what the Thais call it, mostly because the deeds upon which loans are made are usually at the chanote level)- the point is to have the signed power of attorney- the land owner stipulates in the agreement that it was given over freely- it's illegal for the land owner to get a new chanote in this case- it takes 30 days from the initial report of a lost or stolen chanote to be reissued- after that, the land owner would lose (and face fraud charges) if it goes to court- it wouldn't be an issue with proper documentation- this goes on all the time in LOS- it's not just a matter of handing over the chanote itself, and too many people think it's all you need- it's not, but you still need to hold the current copy if you make this sort of loan- it's part of the required documentation.

Did you have a power-of-attorney form when you got screwed?  I bet you didn't.

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## taxexile

You will get screwed here.

Play willing for a while and then break the news that one of your close family members needs urgent financial help and that you cant fund the student loan, or any other credible story to explain why you just dont have the funds.  

Then suggest that the thai family take out a loan to cover einsteins expenses in the uk from a thai bank using the land deeds as security, which is what they should have done in the first place rather than come begging from you via your wife, who seems to be something of a cash cow anyway.

Good luck.

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## Rural Surin

> ffs it is a loan that will never be repaid .


This becomes troublesome, universally, today.

The access to "easy" loans.

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## FailSafe

I agree that you will very likely have a problem as family is involved- you're not charging enough interest to make much money, and if the guy defaults, will your wife actually keep and/or sell the land?  Probably not.

These deals shouldn't be done with friends or family as there's too much guilt if things go south (which they usually do).  A lender has to be devoid of emotion and keep it on a business level- that's the opposite of how a family works. :Wink: 

I know someone who recently lost a 40mil piece of land to a 20mil loan (I wasn't involved)- I told the borrower not to do it, but he wouldn't listen (he paid some interest too- it all is lost if the full balance isn't paid)- usually you can see how it will end from the time it starts.

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## Listerman

Thanks folks for your speedy and considered responses, plenty of sage advice to consider, in reply here are my initial thoughts:




> The qualification would not be worth much anyway and, as you say, of no use in Thailand.


Thats exactly what I thought all along, this qualification has little or no relevance in Thailand. In fact when I think of all the comments on here how incompetent and shady most Thai Lawyers are, I wonder why the brother is interested in studying for a qualification such as this, but what do I know as a Farang, when confronted with the superior Thai interlect. 




> Another point to consider is the fact that a British university is willing to accept a Thai student with a first degree. I wouldn't have thought that any Thai degree would have been adequate preparation for a real Masters course. Is the university running "Mickey Mouse" courses just to earn money ?


This is a reputable UK university, I am myself also VERY doubtful he can achieve the entry requirements, as a typical Thai first degree seems no more challenging than UK 'A levels'. The real test will be if he can meet the IELTS and GPA scores neccesary for enrolment. I am of the opinion this is at best a pipe dream, but whatever happens I want to be in a position where I have the answers to hand if and when the time comes, hence this post.




> Convince the family that he would be better of with a Thai second degree, which he could do part time and pay for himself.


That is a suggestion that makes a great deal of sense, for everyone concerned.




> Holding the Chanote is not much security.
> It is possible to report it lost and get another one issued.


That is a concern of mine, however as failsafe eludes to, it would appear there are steps that can be taken to eliminate this risk.





> After doing your due diligence and making sure the property doesn't have any loans or liens against it, there's a power-of-attorney form you can get from the land office which will give the lender (in this case you) the right to take over and/or sell the land on a certain date- the land owners(s) have to sign it- EVERYBODY needs to sign if there is more than one owner- if one refuses, you can't do the deal- you'll also need signed copies of ID cards, tambien baan, etc. Obviously you will hold the original chanote.


I know that no loans are outstanding on the land, but can you explain what a lien is?

If either of the sisters refuse to sign. From my perspective this would be ideal, as I would be able to walk away from the problem (financialy speaking).




> Obviously most of the trust and risk is on the part of the borrower, and an unscrupulous lender could cause problems- most of these contracts are done between people who know each other fairly well or with a lender that has a good reputation.


I have no desire to shaft them on this, but at the same time I have no desire to be on the receiving end of a shafting myself, hence if the risk is mostly on the borrower it will learn the brother a valuable lesson in money management.




> If you're lending money at 50% or less of the land valuation, you're in a very good position, but dealing with family comes with its own set of problems...


Been as the loan is approx 1/4 of the land price when it was bought, that is what I thought as well. I am not overly concerned what her familly thinks, because I dont live amongst them (apart from brief holidays) and am never likely to, if I ever decide to retire to Thailand. They also know when it comes to loaning money I am doing my best to try and become there least prefered option. 




> This would all need to be in your wife's or some other Thais name- you can't do it in your name as a foreigner.


That I did not know, but it does not surprise me, fortunately I have someone in mind.

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## nidhogg

> The access to "easy" loans.


 
I have to agree on this one.  It is a recurring discussion with my missus.  ""XYZ has a new car, house, whatever"  Yes, and XYZ is in debt upto their eyeballs.  You and me owe nothing to nobody, you have land plus money in savings and my money is safely outside the country.  You want to swap places?  "Mai kha.  But the new car is nice........"

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## FailSafe

^^

By 'lien' I meant you need to make sure another person (private party- not a bank) hasn't lent money on the land as well- of course they'd be holding the deed, but there are fake ones out there as well as other scams a lender can employ- it's a potentially tricky situation, especially if you're new to it.

Just think very hard before committing- loans like this can turn very sour, and the farang often gets the short end of the stick here (as I'm sure you already know :Wink: ).

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## pseudolus

typical Thai family BS. The conversation they will be having is; 

"AAhhh poor little somchai. All he wants to do is get good education in farang university. Gain great face for his mother and family. Will send her lots of money and be pride of village. Farang man very rich. He will pay. Sister farang already send us so much money. They must be rich like Thaksin"

If you pay up; 

"Ahh Farang rich man sticky poo. Not give Somchai enough money to have own car and house there. Shame on our house, sister marry sticky poo like him. Poor somchai"

If you don't

"Ahh Farang richman not pay up. Lucky sister pay up and Somchai go Australia" 

You're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. I doubt you will ever be able to call in the loan as others say, and if you have the Chanote there they will chuck a bung at the land registry and get a new one. Just say no, and thank your lucky stars you will not have a spoilt brat somchai living in your house for a year asking you to wipe his arse for him and tell the Mrs that you just lost a bundle on shares and your skint and ask her to ask them for a loan. Then she might see their value.

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## Thetyim

> Then suggest that the thai family take out a loan to cover einsteins expenses in the uk from a thai bank using the land deeds as security,


Now that idea might have some mileage if you add a sweetener that you will pay the first years interest

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## Rural Surin

> Originally Posted by Rural Surin
> 
> 
>  
> The access to "easy" loans.
> 
> 
>  
> I have to agree on this one. It is a recurring discussion with my missus. ""XYZ has a new car, house, whatever" Yes, and XYZ is in debt upto their eyeballs. You and me owe nothing to nobody, you have land plus money in savings and my money is safely outside the country. You want to swap places? "Mai kha. But the new car is nice........"


Yep. The dangerous ideals of living beyond your and obsessed consumption.

Credit. Loans.

That's what it's all about.

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## hazz

The issue is simple, if the loan goes bad and you want to recover your security... irrespective of the legalities the pressure on your wife to just let the money go will be massive compared to the pressure you are under now.  security or not this is an unsecured loan and you have to ask yourself if you can afford  and are willing to loose that money if it all goes tits up.

As for the course, i am under the impression that lawyers in commerical law at the top of their game and qualified in multiple legal systems are very sought after. but how useful it would be for this chap really does depend on just how clever he is and the usefulnenss of the anglo-thai combination. Due diligence rather than wishful thinking would be the orer of the day. has he approched potential employers to scope out their opinions? And in all seriousness would he be better off working for a firm for a few years and then going to the course, mba's straight of on university are not worth much.

my suggestion for what its worth

make an islamic style loan. wife buys the land and agrees a buy back price and a period of time for that buy back to be valid. deals with the ecurity issue as they lands in the wifes name until its paid back. but really its still going to be seen as family land and you will never be able to sell it.

a better option is to go back with the offer of free bed and board, which in reality will half the cost of the degree (assuming its the uk). and as a gift to cover the cost of the loan repayments during the course and for 1 year after he as finished or he gets a job... which ever comes first. They can then go and get a commercial loan against the the land. 
from what I have seen Thai banks are very predatory and to be honest giving a 25% loan against land is something I would thought they would be very keen on even if they don't think the loan will be repaid.
This put yours better half to be offering to give the lad half of the costs, rest of the family to put up their half and take the risks of failure.

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## FailSafe

^

It's not unlikely they're listed as NPL in the Thai banking system, or they might just appear unable to pay back the loan in a timely manner- banks actually don't want to take over your assets and would rather get reimbursed with interest- they might also have outstanding loans on other assets, which would make them unattractive to banks.

If time is an issue, getting a loan in a month from the start of the application process would be pretty quick- three months before approval isn't uncommon, especially if you don't have prior (or have poor) credit history (if you're approved at all).

There's a reason why so many dummies lose their land for a fraction of what it's worth- it's because they have no other alternatives for a loan than to go with a private lender/broker at a higher rate- in the OP's case, the fact he's willing to do _better_ than the bank's rate makes his potential offer look especially attractive.

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## Listerman

> Then suggest that the thai family take out a loan to cover einsteins expenses in the uk from a thai bank using the land deeds as security, which is what they should have done in the first place rather than come begging from you via your wife, who seems to be something of a cash cow anyway.


Agreed, they only tried to tap me up as they saw it as an interest free loan, however when the wife explained I was looking for the brother to pay off the loan, together with interest, and security against the loan, I understand it was a bit of a shocker for them, so I await there next move.

Einstien? from what I have seen of his latest grade scores, he is some way off. By the very nature of Degree courses they get harder in the final years, so he needs to get his arse in gear.




> the sisters will never let you call in the loan.


Of this I am under no illusion, as it would be mega loss of face for them. However my wife has a fair idea of my business dealings in the UK, hence she knows I have no emotional qualms when it comes to money. She has communicated this to the two sisters, if this happens they now know they would be better off ensuring the younger brother honours his debt, rather than trying it on with me.

I understand how Thai's interact and the principle of face, and the need not to upset there delicate senses, indeed I have tried the softly softly Thai approach in the past, and me being Jonny Farang they walk all over you, hence this time a change of attitude is in order.





> Originally Posted by taxexile
> 
> Then suggest that the thai family take out a loan to cover einsteins expenses in the uk from a Thai bank using the land deeds as security,
> 
> 
> Now that idea might have some mileage if you add a sweetener that you will pay the first years interest


Taken together with the free board and lodging, this would be a good middle ground solution, that way he does not have to have the debt hanging over him whilst studying. He could consider the first years interest payment as a non returnable gift, and upon obtaining employment back in Thailand he can commence paying down the debt.
Who knows if successful, it could be useful to have a tame Thai Lawyer just a phone call away :Smile:

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## taxexile

If you are not already aware, thais have no regard for a "soft touch ", they see them not as generous, but as weak and unworthy of sympathy or respect and a legitimate target to gleefully exploit  for all they are worth. 

Family, friend, neighbour, it matters not. The soft touch is no more than an atm.

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## Kurgen

You're fukked, give hime the money and wipe your mouth. 

Maybe hope for a couple of weeks of good sex.,

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## Lorenzo

Never Loan Money To A Thai

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## TizMe

> Originally Posted by taxexile
> 
> Then suggest that the thai family take out a loan to cover einsteins expenses in the uk from a thai bank using the land deeds as security,
> 
> 
> Now that idea might have some mileage if you add a sweetener that you will pay the first years interest


Or the last year... Then if they have already defaulted and lost the land deeds you are in the clear.

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## Mr Lick

Divorce your wife, move away. Case closed.  :Smile:

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## Listerman

> If you are not already aware, thais have no regard for a "soft touch ", they see them not as generous, but as weak and unworthy of sympathy or respect and a legitimate target to gleefully exploit for all they are worth. 
> 
> Family, friend, neighbour, it matters not. The soft touch is no more than an atm.


I realised that within the first day of coming to Thailand for my first holiday. Hence I quickly reverted to my usual take no prisoners approach, when having to interact with the locals. On the whole they are reasonable people to deal with, but as always there are those who try and take advantage.

As you say they seem to have a begrudging respect for someone who stands there ground.

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## Latindancer

> You will get screwed here.
> 
> Play willing for a while and then break the news that one of your close family members needs urgent financial help and that you cant fund the student loan, or any other credible story to explain why you just dont have the funds.  
> 
> Then suggest that the thai family take out a loan to cover einsteins expenses in the uk from a thai bank using the land deeds as security, which is what they should have done in the first place rather than come begging from you via your wife, who seems to be something of a cash cow anyway.
> 
> Good luck.


To my mind this is good advice. It also saves you face.

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## jingjoke

^ taxexile's advice is spot on; but Listerman's wife will let the cat out of the bag. 

^^ Listerman seems bent on going through with lending the money to party boy despite all the advice to the contrary. His Thai extended family realizes that, despite his claims to the contrary, Listerman is not 'someone who stands there ground'. 

The family can, should they choose, get a loan from Thais or Thai banks if the land deed is on the up and up; but more importantly they realize this loan must be repaid to Thais for fear of very serious repercussions  if they do not. 

The family wants to 'borrow' from Listerman because he is 'family' and both he and especially his wife are proven easy marks.

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## Dillinger

If you cant get your wife to explain you dont have that kind of money, then take Kurgens advice



> You're fukked, give hime the money and wipe your mouth. Maybe hope for a couple of weeks of good sex.,

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## roger77

A lot of times I read forums and think I am in a different Thailand.
However, this is one area that I know you are going to get burned, if you loan to anyones SON  or dont.
I have loaned to wife's sisters and nieces and always got the money back- just small amounts.  However loaning to a male is going to hurt you and cause problems between you and your wife. In married life I have always thought that you share and I tried to explain that to a son, I told him in effect he was stealing from his mother but it doesnt matter women are there to wipe up after him and pay his way.

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## pseudolus

Another point worth remembering is that as soon as he is there, he will tap your missus up remorselessly for money all the time, and she will give it to him whether you know it or not. He will get in with other Thais there who no doubt will be HiSo knobbers, and be quaffing champagne with them all night whilst your wife is working her third job for the day or getting another credit card. Do not do it. As soon as he is there, your wife is toast and will be bled dry and as her husband, you need to protect her from this.

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## Rural Surin

> Never Loan Money To A Thai


As a gift....no problem.

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## Yemen

Listerman-- not a great position you are in, but the best choice I think would be is no loan and stand your ground with wife. Hopefully she will back you up.l

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## superman

I would do it this way Listerman. Everyone seems to have gold stashed away for a rainy day, so give a loan on that. It's more easier than going through courts to get your monies back. Any default and you automatically get the goods, provided you get the gold before releasing the loan.

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## Mid

> The question is how can he legally keep it and what turmoil will it cause in the family if he does.


zero , zilch , zip ....farang v's Thai  :mid: 

they'll just report it missing and have another issued .

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## superman

> they'll just report it missing and have another issued .


Not an easy thing to do. First a visit to the local Ampur to do some paperwork. Then a trip to the land registry with the paperwork, along with 2 witnesses. Usually a policeman and the headman who have to certify that the papers have been genuinely lost and are not being held by a third party.  Big trouble if falsehoods are used to obtain duplicate papers.

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## Mid

> Big trouble if falsehoods are used to obtain duplicate papers.


nothing some tea money can't fix , especially when the 3rd party is a farang .

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## Listerman

> Listerman seems bent on going through with lending the money to party boy despite all the advice to the contrary. His Thai extended family realizes that, despite his claims to the contrary, Listerman is not 'someone who stands there ground'. 
> 
> The family wants to 'borrow' from Listerman because he is 'family' and both he and especially his wife are proven easy marks.


Not so!, there have been further developments, in light of advice I have read on this thread.

Spoke to wifey last night, and made the offer of free board and accomodation together with making a gift payment on the interest for a loan, for the time he is the UK for.

Also mentioned her brother should be investigating what potential employers are looking for qualification wise, and further suggested consider studying for a second degree in Thailand, and obtaining a couple of years work experience prior to commencing a higher degree qualification.

As you can imagine, all of the above went down like a Lead balloon and thereafter I got the silent treatment all of last night, but at least I could watch the TV in peace  :Smile: 

As of this morning some degree of normality has returned.





> The family can, should they choose, get a loan from Thais or Thai banks if the land deed is on the up and up; but more importantly they realize this loan must be repaid to Thais for fear of very serious repercussions if they do not.


Either that or some land will have to be sold. Whatever happens now my exposure to this situation is minimal.

As always thanks for the excellent advice chaps, its much appreciated.

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## nidhogg

^ Unless your wife is unique - I would bet this subject is not dead and buried......

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## superman

^ I have to agree.

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## corvettelover

thats assuming the degree he gets is worth more than the piece of toilet paper it is written on.
not worth a pinch of shit outside thailand not accepted in australia any degree at all until they sit for an exam and they normally fail.

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## Jesus Jones

"however as far as I am concerned this is a take it or leave it offer".

You said it here.

Make it clear they are your rules if you allow him to.

I was in a similar situation back in Manchester where I housed and sent my English niece to university.  She was at loggerheads with her mother for years; the pair never got on.  However, she was a cheeky, rude and disrespectful little shit.  I knew what I was taking on but my wife and I at the time made the rules clear, there were no second chances.  After enrolling at Uni when things seemed to be straightening out for her, it didn't take long before she brought some kid back without me knowing about it.  We saw the runt leaving early in the morning.  She knew the rules and was sent packing the day after.  Harsh I know, but some people cannot be helped!

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## pseudolus

Listerman - I assume you realise that a lot of things might be agreed by them and all concerned but as soon as he arrives, that is a different story. It seems that your wife is set on you funding the whole thing so this will happen regardless of what you think has been arranged, if you let him get on a plane to England. It is likely that she has already told the family that you will pay for everything, so she now loses face with anything you  try to get her to do, and the result will be the same; 12 months with a feckless spoilt brat leaching off of your wife. Best course of action is to make a concerted effort to make her understand that it is not in the best interests of the kid, her family, and her for him to study abroad. I have seen this work in the past and takes some cunning above and beyond what they are capable of, but you need her to believe that he should not go. Other wise, you will be funding his life of luxury for a year (most likely 2-3 years because he will spin it out).

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## Sampattaya

Don't do it! I can't even add up all the loans--and I use that term loosely, that I've made to my wife's friends/family in the past. They've always said they would pay them back, but so far, hasn't happened. I know you think your Thai family is different--so did I. There's a saying over here: you don't loan money to an Asian, you give it to them. I've found this out the hard way, hope you don't do the same. Good luck as I know it puts you in a hard position with your Thai, family, especially your wife. I finally just had to tell my wife, "enough is enough, I don't make enough money to support all your family". Once again, I wish you luck in this matter.

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## DrAndy

tell them you can't afford a loan as you have no spare cash, everything is in land and other stuff that cannot be accessed

then say that you would be happy to look after him when he comes to the Uk, no problem

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## Listerman

> Unless your wife is unique - I would bet this subject is not dead and buried......


Of that I am sure, but she now knows a line in the sand has been drawn which will not be crossed.

Her Thai thinking is now preventing her from even accepting my offer of paying for the 1st years interest on the loan. I am of the opinion that her stratergy is to try to pressurise me into changing my mind at a later date, and paying for the whole lot. Which I have told her is not going to happen.





> Thats assuming the degree he gets is worth more than the piece of toilet paper it is written on. Not worth a pinch of shit outside thailand not accepted in australia any degree at all until they sit for an exam and they normally fail.


For him obtaining the required GPA and IELTS scores will be the big test, and from what I have seen and heard to date. I am not optimistic of him meeting these key requirements. 





> I was in a similar situation back in Manchester where I housed and sent my English niece to university. She knew the rules and was sent packing the day after. Harsh I know, but some people cannot be helped!


I have also explained to the wife, that if and when he comes here, there will be some house rules. He will be here to study and nothing else.





> It is likely that she has already told the family that you will pay for everything, so she now loses face with anything you try to get her to do, and the result will be the same; 12 months with a feckless spoilt brat leaching off of your wife. Best course of action is to make a concerted effort to make her understand that it is not in the best interests of the kid, her family, and her for him to study abroad.


She knows me well enough, to know that my decision is final, this is not the first time she has had a knock back from me, so if she decides to bring him to the UK, she will be in no doubt that financially it will be at her famillys risk, not mine.

I have mentioned to the wife, the essence of what Hazz said in his post "research the situation in more detail. Due diligence rather than wishful thinking would be the order of the day. has he approched potential employers to scope out their opinions? And in all seriousness would he be better off working for a firm for a few years and then going to the course, mba's straight of on university are not worth much."

As yet this has been dismissed as typical farang thinking, as I firmly believe this is a pipe dream of the family, which is been entered into with little or no prior research, which would give them big face by having there son coming to study in the UK.





> Don't do it! I can't even add up all the loans, that I've made to my wife's friends/family in the past. They've always said they would pay them back, but so far, hasn't happened. Good luck as I know it puts you in a hard position with your Thai, family, especially your wife.


I dont intend to! However to be fair to the wife on the two prevoius occasions I have lent her money. It has alway been repaid in full and on time, the difference this time is its not for her, and its a serious amount of money.

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## Loy Toy

> You're getting confused as to what 'Chanote's are. Anything regarding title papers and loans, stay clear of. That's the job for lawyers and banks.


What superman said and if you have to enforce the takeover of the land because of non-settlement of the loan expect a long, nasty and costly court battle.

Never loan any money you cannot afford to lose.

In fact if your financially able sponsor the lad and make sure your wife and her family know this is the last funding they will receive.

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## Norton

> These deals shouldn't be done with friends or family


All the other reason aside, this is fundamental and will lead to conflict with your wife and you.

I sense it already is.

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## Yasojack

Anyone know the name for the land papers, that your have to wait ten years until you get the channote.

My wifes mother got some of these papers when Thaksin was in power, and seems she has three years to wait, wife says its Channote but i not think it is.

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## pseudolus

> Anyone know the name for the land papers, that your have to wait ten years until you get the channote.
> 
> My wifes mother got some of these papers when Thaksin was in power, and seems she has three years to wait, wife says its Channote but i not think it is.


https://teakdoor.com/doing-things-leg...te-or-not.html

This seems to hold all the info out there.

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## Noknoi

I don't know what to advise on this as I, too, have had the same problems. Best to tell your wife's family that you cannot afford. It is best not to get involved. 

Good luck :Smile:

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## Albert Shagnastier

Unfortunately, as many have said - you're being done over.

If it makes you feel better - you're not alone - you're one of many.

9 out of 10 Farang/Thai relationships are based on the sponsorship scenario whether they see it or not. This is the category (going by what you have said in your post) that you fall into.

Give them nothing. If they want to borrow money against land - do it with a Thai bank. If they were honest they would have done this already before coming to you.

When your wife gets upset - give her one chance only to shut up and not mention it again. If she doesn't take this chance - divorce her and get a younger model (ffs check her out PROPERLY before you commit again)

Sorry to say it mate but it's your only option - unless you just want to get fucked over.

Plenty of pussy about, and before you say "But we love each other" bollocks - if she loved you she would never have put you into this situation.

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## superman

> If they want to borrow money against land -  do it with a Thai bank. If they were honest they would have done this  already before coming to you.


I doubt they'd have gone to a Thai  bank for 2 reasons. Firstly, borrowing against land is a very long  winded process in Thailand, and the outcome cannot be guaranteed.  Secondly, if the bank does lend them the money and they default then  it's goodbye land for sure. Whereas, a farang is the easiest option with  nearly instant money access, and definitely no chance of obtaining the  land by default.

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## Chairman Mao

Another sucker getting taken for the foolish mark that he is.

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## Lorenzo

> Listerman-- not a great position you are in, but the best choice I think would be is no loan and stand your ground with wife. Hopefully she will back you up.l


A good opportunity to flush out what the wife is really about.

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## superman

> Originally Posted by Yemen
> 
> 
> Listerman-- not a great position you are in, but the best choice I think would be is no loan and stand your ground with wife. Hopefully she will back you up.l
> 
> 
> A good opportunity to flush out what the wife is really about.


We all know now that she'll be family first. I think the OP is a looser which ever option he chooses and I think he knows this also. 
The only thing he can do is find a course of action that will limit his loses, financially and personal, and go with that. But loose he will.

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## Chairman Mao

A loan based on something that the person cannot own or claim ownership of!

Genius!  :Smile: 


Can my wife also have a loan, her land is worth about 5 mill, we only want 200k and will pay back at 20% interest, I'll send you the channote tomorrow.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Lorenzo

> Originally Posted by Lorenzo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Yemen
> ...


You are likely correct. 

However, in any relationship, to be elevated to the status of wife the husband must become #1, otherwise she retains the title of whore.

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## DrAndy

> if she loved you she would never have put you into this situation.


that is true, to a point

the wife should always put the husband before her family

if she doesn't, then she needs her priorities changing

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## superman

> the wife should always put the husband before her family  if she doesn't, then she needs her priorities changing


Or her address.

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## Hypatia

> but can you explain what a lien is?


Oh dear, 
Please do not loan  the money or  even make  a gift,  why? He's already spoiled  and seeks to have a disreputable  career, by some  accounts -and you already are offering free   board.

Be prepared  to be the bad guy.  Maybe good a time to wean the wife from her unfair commitments, or... yes,  see what it's made of and maybe an unpleasant outcome .

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## expattaffy

A simple solution here with no risks. HE has the chanute for the land so just tell him to go to a bank in Thailand and put the chanute on the counter and ask for a loan with the chanute being the security. He wont fail to get a loan. Here is what my wife done in Korat last week. MY wife had one million baht, I had one and a half million baht, she wanted to buy thisnhouse for one and a half million baht. I didnt want to dip into mine so she was half a million baht short. She went into her bank and said, I have a house worth one and a half million baht, can I have a half million baht loan, the manager said yes as long asmyou bring in the chanute. SHe and the seller then went to the land office and for a part payment of one million they done the deal and put the chanute in my wifes name. SHe then went to the bank and put the chanute on the counter and the bank put the cash on the counter, which she then gave to the seller. JOb done.

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## melvin

Gosh, I am pleased I don't have a Thai family.

This looks pretty much as a lose lose scenario.

Don't try anything clever with the title deed.
Also keep in mind that lives are cheap cheap in LoS, also in fam circles.

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## wasabi

Don't do it.
They must go to a Thai bank and borrow the money,then transfer the money into your account.

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## superman

> A simple solution here with no risks. HE has the chanute for the land so just tell him to go to a bank in Thailand and put the chanute on the counter and ask for a loan with the chanute being the security. He wont fail to get a loan. Here is what my wife done in Korat last week. MY wife had one million baht, I had one and a half million baht, she wanted to buy thisnhouse for one and a half million baht. I didnt want to dip into mine so she was half a million baht short. She went into her bank and said, I have a house worth one and a half million baht, can I have a half million baht loan, the manager said yes as long asmyou bring in the chanute. SHe and the seller then went to the land office and for a part payment of one million they done the deal and put the chanute in my wifes name. SHe then went to the bank and put the chanute on the counter and the bank put the cash on the counter, which she then gave to the seller. JOb done.


This for me doesn't seem correct. Having been to a Land Registration office a few times I know things ain't as easy as you make out. Secondly, to get a loan from a bank using land papers as security isn't as easy as plonking the land paper on the counter and getting a loan straight away. Like all loan agents they need to do background checks. Plus they have evaluators that go out, measure the actual land and decide it's value. It's only after all this that a loan can be agreed and it takes months to go through the system and isn't guaranteed. This is why Thais will only use banks as a last resort, to get loans from.

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## Seekingasylum

Another way to avoid family pressures arising out of this proposed arrangement, which will cost you at least £15,000 in fees and expenses, is to agree to support him etc and to act as sponsor when he applies for the visa.

But, at the same time, write to the UK Border Agency visa section Bkk under the terms of the strictest of confidentiality and disclose that you have been pressured into this and that it is your understanding the primary purpose of the applicant is to gain entry in to the UK in order to work and to stay as long as possible by delaying the submission of his thesis. That should do it. Refusal will come hard, you can make a show of indignation and the whole thing will be forgotten about in no time.

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## nidhogg

> Another way to avoid family pressures arising out of this proposed arrangement, which will cost you at least £15,000 in fees and expenses, is to agree to support him etc and to act as sponsor when he applies for the visa.
> 
> But, at the same time, write to the UK Border Agency visa section Bkk under the terms of the strictest of confidentiality and disclose that you have been pressured into this and that it is your understanding the primary purpose of the applicant is to gain entry in to the UK in order to work and to stay as long as possible by delaying the submission of his thesis. That should do it. Refusal will come hard, you can make a show of indignation and the whole thing will be forgotten about in no time.


...and then he can enjoy the next how long doing time at her majestys pleasure for making a false declaration on an official document.

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## DrAndy

TheGents makes a good point, if you are up for a bit of skullduggery

he will never make it past the first post

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## hillbilly

In Thailand one never really knows the rules. A case in point.

The wife loaned B200,000 to a good friend in the construction business about five years ago. The payments were made until about two years ago.Then all communication stopped. The wife got mad.The deal maker was the Chanote (which we had in our back pocket).

Contacted a lawyer friend who had access to the database of where people stated they lived.

After a few letters, we are now recieving payments from the rentee of the condo where the original loan was taken from.

Weird yes, but TIT...

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## Seekingasylum

> ...and then he can enjoy the next how long doing time at her majestys pleasure for making a false declaration on an official document.


What???

Don't be silly. What false declaration on what official document? 

Pray tell, just what offence was committed under English law and how is it provable? If the UKBA were to conclude it was a malicious denunciation then there only recourse would be to discount it and consider the application on its own merits.

In any event, it is on balance the lad's likely motives for several reasons not least because he has on the face of it none of the academic abilities necessary to pursue such a course of study nor the linguistic proficiency.

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## superman

> The deal maker was the Chanote (which we had in our back pocket).


Having someones land papers counts for fcuk all. I loaned someone money based on that my wife held the land papers as security. The person defaulted. I/we went to see a lawyer who basically told us they were worthless unless the defaulter willingly allows transfer to my wife's name. Something the defaulter wouldn't do. On top of that I found out that even though I/we had the land paper the legal owner still had the right to farm/access. I/we had no rights other than to pursue our claim in court. The lawyer advised against this due to the sum involved and the costs and time involved.
As I've said before in this thread 'if your going to lend money then get liquid assets from the person, IE in the form of gold'. Most Thais will have some stashed away.

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## hillbilly

> Originally Posted by hillbilly
> 
> The deal maker was the Chanote (which we had in our back pocket).
> 
> 
> Having someones land papers counts for fcuk all. I loaned someone money based on that my wife held the land papers as security. The person defaulted. I/we went to see a lawyer who basically told us they were worthless unless the defaulter willingly allows transfer to my wife's name. Something the defaulter wouldn't do.


Our defaulter did sign beforehand. No signature, no loan...

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## FailSafe

> Originally Posted by hillbilly
> 
> The deal maker was the Chanote (which we had in our back pocket).
> 
> 
> Having someones land papers counts for fcuk all. I loaned someone money based on that my wife held the land papers as security. The person defaulted. I/we went to see a lawyer who basically told us they were worthless unless the defaulter willingly allows transfer to my wife's name. Something the defaulter wouldn't do. On top of that I found out that even though I/we had the land paper the legal owner still had the right to farm/access. I/we had no rights other than to pursue our claim in court. The lawyer advised against this due to the sum involved and the costs and time involved.
> As I've said before in this thread 'if your going to lend money then get liquid assets from the person, IE in the form of gold'. Most Thais will have some stashed away.


Which is exactly why I said earlier that you need a signed power-of-attorney that gives you the rights to the land- just holding the chanote paperwork isn't enough- it's a huge advantage for the lender, and you should never make a loan without it- if you have the signed power-of-attorney, you are the land owner until/unless you transfer it back- it's the only way a piece of land can be held as actual security- if the borrower defaults, he loses his land- you would not have had a problem if you had gotten the proper paperwork at the outset.

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## Yasojack

I must admit this loan with channote has at times tempted me to go into the loan business, of course through the wife.

The sharks around where we live give  a 1/3 of what the land is worth at 5% per month, the amount of people who end up losing there land is pretty amazing.

Does anyone do the loans and if so how much do you charge?

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## Yasojack

Well i am surprised No dodgy expats in Thailand making money  :smiley laughing:

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## superman

> you would not have had a problem if you had gotten the proper paperwork at the outset.


Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I was naive and too trusting having not yet realized how deceitful the locals could be. I in fact loaned money to a few others and everyone defaulted one way or other. Never again, not even if I had "power of attorney".

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## Norton

> not even if I had "power of attorney"


You need the "power of two big guys on a motorsi". They're all over Isaan collecting debts. Very effective.

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## FailSafe

> Originally Posted by FailSafe
> 
> you would not have had a problem if you had gotten the proper paperwork at the outset.
> 
> 
> Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I was naive and too trusting having not yet realized how deceitful the locals could be. I in fact loaned money to a few others and everyone defaulted one way or other. Never again, not even if I had "power of attorney".


It's not 'hindsight'- it's 'due diligence'- you've made a few posts re: using land as security against a loan that were incorrect- your failure to protect yourself was your fault, and no one else's, and your bad experience is not indicative of how the process can go if it's set up properly from the beginning- you set yourself up to fail, and that's what ended up happening.  Borrowers can be deceitful and downright dishonest all over the world- it's not endemic to Thailand- this is why the lender has to set the conditions in such a way that he can't lose even if the borrower disappears five minutes after he receives his money- if the borrower doesn't agree with the lender's conditions from the outset, the loan isn't made.

Most of us have been burned on loans at some point (I certainly have)- I used those events as learning experiences rather than condemning the entire process based on them.

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## FailSafe

> Originally Posted by superman
> 
> not even if I had "power of attorney"
> 
> 
> You need the "power of two big guys on a motorsi". They're all over Isaan collecting debts. Very effective.


Those leg breakers are involved with relatively small unsecured loans, not loans based on some sort of collateral- there's no reason to threaten someone into paying when you already hold an asset worth considerably more than the initial amount of their loan. :Wink:

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## Lorenzo

The thread is long and many good ideas are exchanged here.

 Nevertheless, "Never lend money to a Thai" is all you need to know.

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## InKorat

When you go to the land office with the brother's title deed they will compare it to the duplicate copy that they have on file. If you look on the back of the document, it is easy to see if there is any recorded liens on the property, since the mortgagor's name will be clearly shown on the back of the title deed. A recorded lien take precedence over any unrecorded liens on fixed property. 

 I believe they still charge 1% of the loan valve as a fee for recording the mortgage, plus some other small processing fees.

 If the brother defaults you will need to go to court and if the court finds in your favor they will arrange a public auction of the property. The proceeds from the sale first go to pay the court/administrator and then to pay you and any amount left over will be paid to the brother.  

 Mortgaged property does not default into your name as a foreigner, it will be titled to the highest bidder of the auction, who may be a nominee. 

 If you are structuring it as a sale with the right of redemption, this will need to be in a Thai name and its expensive for the brother.

 Personally, I would duck and dive and give it a miss. 

 Either way they will forget about it in time and you will still have your money and a lot less aggravation with the wife & family.

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