#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Learn Thai Language >  >  Would the language be diminished if they dropped the krab ka stuff

## Immigrunt

I know its purpose, but it's not essential. What would be the effect of dropping it other than the loss of superficial politeness?

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## Neverna

There would be many more headaches in Thailand as people try to think of how to speak or be polite or give simple affirmations without using kaa/krap etc.

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## David48atTD

> I know its purpose, but it's not essential. What would be the effect of dropping it other than the loss of superficial politeness?


I would actually contend that you really don't know 'it's real purpose'.

But, I'm not a Thai Language expert ... others here have a much more proficient use and understanding of Thai.


Before we go examining and exploring and criticizing others native language, if you consider that 'Language' or 'the spoken work' is simply the most effective way to communicate then consider the English Language.

_Grunter, I'm going to the Shop_ ... factual statement in English.

_Grunter, I go shop_ ... factual statement in English without all those 'glueing' words which the English Language has.


Both communications deliver the information that I'm going to the Shop.

The parred down version is more effective, therefore, because it's more efficient, it must be considered the superior English Statement?

But no ... 


It's the subtle nuances in Language that make it live, make it sing and nice to listen to.

You can transfer that perspective to your OP.
.

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## ShrewedPunter

Sawadee jaaaaaaa

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## Hugh Cow

> It's the subtle nuances in Language that make it live, make it sing and nice to listen to.


I agree I am not proficient enough with Thai to know the subtle nuances but am a great lover of the English language.

But soft! What light through yonder window breaks? It is the east and Juliet is the sun!
Paired down: Light in window. Juliet bright.

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## DrB0b

> Originally Posted by Immigrunt
> 
> 
> I know its purpose, but it's not essential. What would be the effect of dropping it other than the loss of superficial politeness?
> 
> 
> I would actually contend that you really don't know 'it's real purpose'.
> 
> But, I'm not a Thai Language expert ... others here have a much more proficient use and understanding of Thai.
> ...


Like so much of what is believed to be "traditional" Thainess the "krab, ka" usages were invented by the Dictator Plaek Phibunsongkram, Marshall P, in the 1940s. He also invented, among many other things now believed to be ancient and authentic, Thai National dress, the Sawasdi greeting, Pad Thai, the Ramwong dance, and the name "Thailand". So, in answer to Smeg's question, the language would not be depleted if this recently invented and widely disliked usage was dropped, it would merely revert to the usages of 7 decades ago.

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## hick

My first boss in Thailand was a Californian, all 225 kilos of him (500 lbs).

He was a bit of an oddball in other ways but his language ability was truly impressive.

However, not once (and I mean never) did anyone witness him (in all the many times of his sorting out taxis, on the phone for biz, ordering food, etc.) utter the word "kap," "krap," or otherwise.

Made sense since he was an utter cock most of the time.

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## Immigrunt

> Sawadee jaaaaaaa


That just sounds gay, whoever says it.

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## Davis Knowlton

Well, for one thing, conversations would be greatly shortened.

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## nidhogg

Its always fun listing to my secretary on the phone when she is having a "conversation" with someone...

Preamble where she ask for the information she is after, followed by 10 minutes of....kah...............kah............kah........  .......kah...............kah...............kah....  ....kah..........kah........

Think she would be lost without it.  Maybe we would get something like "ok" or "uh"  in its place.  Lets leave Kah and Khrap alone eh.

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## Immigrunt

^ That's exactly what it means in that context.

It's the adding it to the end of x% of sentences depending on how arse licky you want to be that I think could be dropped with no major loss of anything other than superficial bull.

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## nidhogg

> ^ That's exactly what it means in that context.
> 
> It's the adding it to the end of x% of sentences depending on how arse licky you want to be that I think could be dropped with no major loss of anything.


Of course.  But it still sounds better than "uh huh".

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## Auroria

Give me Kaaa and Krap before the diminished language of Scouse, Brummie or Geordie anyday.  :Smile:

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## Crestofawave

khrab and kha serve 2 functions as mentioned- one to show politeness as a speaker to the listener and secondly to show as a listener you're taking in the points the speaker is making.
We do the first in English all the time- '_Good morning Mr Jones'_ '_Hello sir/teacher '_etc or by the tones in our voice- simply good manners so what's wrong with keeping that?
Secondly with no khrap or kha, replies on the phone deteriorate to _uh_ or a very short _er._ Of course there's the a_rai wah!?_ variety too
kha has its own tone too- short and falling, very relaxing imo.

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## taxexile

> ^ That's exactly what it means in that context.
> 
> It's the adding it to the end of x% of sentences depending on how arse licky you want to be that I think could be dropped with no major loss of anything other than superficial bull.


By incorrectly assuming that these words are a sign of weakness, subservience and indecision and removing them from your thai language usage you are likely to be seen as ignorant and become culturally lost very quickly.

The english equivalent would be to converse in a gruff, bad tempered, disrespectful and ill mannered aggressive manner using a loud tone of voice with a facial expression showing impatience and anger and you wouldnt get very far in your day to day dealings. social exclusion would result very quickly.

Using the thai particles kha and khrap and other polite particles  in a soft and undemonstrative manner is a mark of  both politeness, reflecting the speakers unwillingness to appear too assertive, and a sign of authority, reflecting the speakers lack of need to be assertive.

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## DrB0b

> Originally Posted by Immigrunt
> 
> 
> ^ That's exactly what it means in that context.
> 
> It's the adding it to the end of x% of sentences depending on how arse licky you want to be that I think could be dropped with no major loss of anything other than superficial bull.
> 
> 
> By incorrectly assuming that these words are a sign of weakness, subservience and indecision and removing them from your thai language usage you are likely to be seen as ignorant and become culturally lost very quickly.
> ...


So how exactly do they do it before those words were added to the language in the 1940s?

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## Digby Fantona

> So how exactly do they do it before those words were added to the language in the 1940s?


They stuck their tongues out at each other or thumbed their noses depending on status.

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## DrB0b

> kha has its own tone too- short and falling, very relaxing imo.


Short is not a tone. Falling tone ค่ะ means yes I agree, for a female. Rising tone คะ is the polite particle for a female.

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## taxexile

i have no idea.

maybe before, ones status in society resulted in either complete subservience and bowing and scraping was the norm when dealing with superiors, whilst those of high status had no need to be polite to inferiors and just hurled abuse and contempt.

the adding of kha and khrap might have been an attempt at evening out the playing field a little and bringing a smidgin of equality into social intercourse.

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## Crestofawave

> Originally Posted by Crestofawave
> 
> kha has its own tone too- short and falling, very relaxing imo.
> 
> 
> Short is not a tone. Falling tone ค่ะ means yes I agree, for a female. Rising tone คะ is the polite particle for a female.


 ค ควาย doesn't have a rising tone surely, only middle, falling or high.
If you write คะ it must be a high tone which is why it's often written with mai aek to make it fall ie ค่ะ for assenting.

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## Immigrunt

Agree with Bob, and these words have now become self-sustaining because every member of society is too scared of losing face by ending or even reducing their use.

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## DrB0b

> Originally Posted by DrB0b
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Crestofawave
> ...


Ah right, high tone for คะ. Still, there are two forms of the female partickle Kha and only one has a falling tone. 



> Agree with Bob, and these words have now become self-sustaining because everyone is too scared of losing face by ending their use.


There was some pop star a few years ago, Luk Krung, who refused to use Kha in her speech, the media wrote about her as if she was advocating forced buggery of the King.

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## Immigrunt

Sometimes the kaaaaaaaa is ridiculously long, for example when they say please come again in 7-11, and it sounds completely insincere (which of course it is, because they couldn't care less if you return and have to say it to keep their job).

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## Immigrunt

> i have no idea.
> 
> maybe before, ones status in society resulted in either complete subservience and bowing and scraping was the norm when dealing with superiors, whilst those of high status had no need to be polite to inferiors and just hurled abuse and contempt.
> 
> the adding of kha and khrap might have been an attempt at evening out the playing field a little and bringing a smidgin of equality into social intercourse.


I'd say it had the exact opposite effect, and introduced a social caste system of grovelling into the language, with those who wish to demonstrate their superiority or contempt avoiding its use whilst knowing the lesser party has no choice but to use it.

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## taxexile

> Sometimes the kaaaaaaaa is ridiculously long, for example when they say please come again in 7-11, and it sounds completely insincere (which of course it is, because they couldn't care less if you return and have to say it to keep their job).


thats no different to the "have a nice day"  one hears in shops back in the west.

but have a nice day and other niceties can have meaning  when said friend to friend or even during social intercourse.

the thais know how read  the nuances of their language and pronunciations and will detect politeness or disrespect and insincerity where it arises.
we as foreigners, even the fluent speakers amongst us, are mostly unable to do that, or may misread those subtle signals that would be unmistakable in our own language. chai mai khraaaaap?

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## taxexile

> I'd say it had the exact opposite effect, and introduced a social caste system of grovelling via its use into the language, with those who wish to demonstrate their superiority or contempt avoiding its use.


well he failed, because thais of all ranks seem to use those words unfailingly.

i would opine that the caste system was infinitely worse before he, fascist that he was, tried to introduce some civilized behaviour into what was mostly a medieval society.

i find that those polite participles to be a great leveller when dealing with either those with power over me, such as the police or immigration officials, or with societies lower orders such as taxi drivers, beggars, waitresses and security guards.

the nature of your original and subsequent post here suggest that you cannot speak thai, so their usage shouldnt really bother you one way or another.

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## Immigrunt

> We do the first in English all the time- '_Good morning Mr Jones'_ '_Hello sir/teacher '_etc or by the tones in our voice- simply good manners so what's wrong with keeping that?.


 But it wouldn't be natural to say sir or madam at the end of x% of sentences if you were talking to a neighbour for example, but this is the exact type of scenario when krab and ka will be used, endlessly and IMO superfluously.

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## DrB0b

> Originally Posted by taxexile
> 
> 
> i have no idea.
> 
> maybe before, ones status in society resulted in either complete subservience and bowing and scraping was the norm when dealing with superiors, whilst those of high status had no need to be polite to inferiors and just hurled abuse and contempt.
> 
> the adding of kha and khrap might have been an attempt at evening out the playing field a little and bringing a smidgin of equality into social intercourse.
> 
> ...


I agree with immigrunt. All the Thais I know who dislike using the polite particles dislike them because it forces them into a position of subservience when talking with certain people.

I believe the usage of these particles was promulgated in Plaek's Cultural Mandates, "advisories" published in the Royal Gazette which were, in reality, compulsory.

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## taxexile

natural for an english speaker maybe, but why impose your culture on the thai.
they do it differently.

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## Immigrunt

Not imposing, opining and discussing. They do many things differently, and none are above critical analysis from the vantage point of being an alien on the wall.

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## DrB0b

> tried to introduce some civilized behaviour into what was mostly a medieval society


 You clearly have little knowledge of Thai history. Whatever Thai society may have been like in the 19030s and 1940s it was most definitely not "medieval".

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## taxexile

> I agree with immigrunt. All the Thais I know who dislike using the polite particles dislike them because it forces them into a position of subservience when talking with certain people.



the only obvious subservience i see in thai social intercourse is the abhorrent wai.

a high ranker will use those particles to a low ranker just as the low ranker will use them to the high ranker. its probably all done subconsciously anyway. better don tink too mat

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## taxexile

> Originally Posted by taxexile
> 
>  tried to introduce some civilized behaviour into what was mostly a medieval society
> 
> 
>  You clearly have little knowledge of Thai history. Whatever Thai society may have been like in the 19030s and 1940s it was most definitely not "medieval".


cue long lecture on thai history with links and references.


oh do stop it bob.

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## taxexile

his cultural revolution attempted to

...... uplift the national spirit and moral code of the nation and instilling progressive tendencies and a newness into Thai life", a series of Cultural Mandates were issued by the government. 

These mandates encouraged that all Thais were to salute the flag in public places, know the new national anthem, and use the Thai language, not regional dialects. People were encouraged to adopt Western, as opposed to traditional, attire. Similarly, people were encouraged to eat with a fork and spoon, rather than with their hands as was customary. 

Phibunsongkhram saw these policies as necessary, in the interest of progressivism, to change Thailand in the minds of foreigners from an undeveloped and barbaric country into a civilised and modernised one.......

to the outside world, thai society was undeveloped and barbaric, and he sought to change that.

undeveloped and barbaric = medieval

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## DrB0b

> Originally Posted by DrB0b
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by taxexile
> ...


Why? You "opine" based on nothing but ignorance. Do you think that you have a free pass to fictionalise? You may believe in the ignorant nonsense you spew but the facts show you up for an empty-headed loudmouth.

Given that, it's hardly surprising you dislike links and references so much, I imagine that they are a constant source of embarrassment for you.


If you post nonsense on a subject I know about then you can damn well count on the fact that I will call you out for being an ignorant poseur.


Here's a link, for those that are interested. It's to the Royal Gazette. 

:: ÃÒª¡Ô¨¨Ò¹Øàº¡ÉÒ :: ¤é¹ËÒÃÒª¡Ô¨¨Ò¹Øàº¡ÉÒ

If people would like to read Plaek's Cultural Mandates for themselves they can be found by typing  รัฐนิยม into the "Title" search field.




> These mandates encouraged that all Thais were to salute the flag in public places, know the new national anthem, and use the Thai language, not regional dialects. People were encouraged to adopt Western, as opposed to traditional, attire. Similarly, people were encouraged to eat with a fork and spoon, rather than with their hands as was customary. 
> 
> Phibunsongkhram saw these policies as necessary, in the interest of progressivism, to change Thailand in the minds of foreigners from an undeveloped and barbaric country into a civilised and modernised one.......
> 
> to the outside world, thai society was undeveloped and barbaric, and he sought to change that.


The mandates sought to consolidate power to a certain group and to divert the profits of Thai produce and industry to the same group. If you weren't so proudly ignorant you would be aware of the historical, cultural, and social context in which these mandates were devised.

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## Passing Through

> the only obvious subservience i see in thai social intercourse is the abhorrent wai.


There's an awful lot of it encoded in the language, especially in pronouns (you can pack galaxies in the space between ข้าพเจ้า and กู) and particles.

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## DrB0b

> undeveloped and barbaric = medieval


What an odd definition of medieval. I certainly wouldn't consider Chartres Cathedral or Geoffrey Chaucer as either undeveloped or barbaric. How sad that you are so divorced from history, lacking any cultural moorings it's no wonder you are so bitter.

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## Neverna

> Originally Posted by Crestofawave
> 
> 
> We do the first in English all the time- '_Good morning Mr Jones'_ '_Hello sir/teacher '_etc or by the tones in our voice- simply good manners so what's wrong with keeping that?.
> 
> 
>  But it wouldn't be natural to say sir or madam at the end of x% of sentences if you were talking to a neighbour for example, but this is the exact type of scenario when krab and ka will be used, endlessly and IMO superfluously.


Not really.

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## Passing Through

> But it wouldn't be natural to say sir or madam at the end of x% of sentences if you were talking to a neighbour for example,


In English it wouldn't, in Thai it would. It's surprising that somebody who possess the minimal intelligence necessary to turn on and operate a computer struggles with this, but then Smeg is a constant source of amazement.

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## Neverna

> Originally Posted by Immigrunt
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
>  Originally Posted by taxexile
> ...


Surely P' and Nong etc, and the whole social hierarchy of age and status do that.

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## nidhogg

> the only obvious subservience i see in thai social intercourse is the abhorrent wai.
> 			
> 		
> 
> There's an awful lot of it encoded in the language, especially in pronouns (you can pack galaxies in the space between ข้าพเจ้า and กู) and particles.


Most thais i know have never expressed any dislike of kha or khrap.  Never come up in conversation.

But most of the ones i know would cut their nuts off to have our pronouns.

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## DrB0b

> Originally Posted by DrB0b
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Immigrunt
> ...



That too. The whole damn language is designed to keep people in their place. It's all a load of บังคน.

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## Immigrunt

I can understand tax's romantic attraction to it. Perhaps he only discovered it later in life, but to a young (not so these days but was when I started learning the lingo in 2002) the krab and ka stuff is tedious, and like Bob says, part of the 'system' of suppression.

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## Crestofawave

> Originally Posted by Crestofawave
> 
> 
> We do the first in English all the time- '_Good morning Mr Jones'_ '_Hello sir/teacher '_etc or by the tones in our voice- simply good manners so what's wrong with keeping that?.
> 
> 
>  But it wouldn't be natural to say sir or madam at the end of x% of sentences if you were talking to a neighbour for example, but this is the exact type of scenario when krab and ka will be used, endlessly and IMO superfluously.


Talking to neighbours,  after the first greeting, Thais would only be saying khrap or kha at the end of sentences to acknowledge they have heard the neighbour's comments- no different to English's 'yes' 'no' 'ah ha' 'quite' 'yup'  etc.
'A lot of rain last night,'
'Khrap'(right, yup)

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## Immigrunt

^ Incorrect.

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## Neverna

It depends on the relationship between the speakers ... and perhaps how polite they want to sound.

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## armstrong

my wife told me to fuck off today but put kha on the end.   kinda softened the blow a tad.

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## DrB0b

> my wife told me to fuck off today but put kha on the end.   kinda softened the blow a tad.



It was probably this one ฆ่า, or this one ข้า

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## Immigrunt

> my wife told me to fuck off today but put kha on the end.   kinda softened the blow a tad.


Arai wa na krab?

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## Mandaloopy

In Myanmar we say 'ba' to make a sentence polite. Crazy,eh?

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## Pragmatic

> In Myanmar we say 'ba' to make a sentence polite. Crazy,eh?


Nice play on words.

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## Mandaloopy

I like the whole krab/ka thing- good manners seem to be lacking around the world of late. Started to take learning Myanmar a bit more seriously this year and have learned more in a week of lessons than I did last year. Compared to Thai reading and writing is considerably easier. Speaking much less so, the tones seem so more subtle to my ear for some reason.

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## taxexile

> Originally Posted by taxexile
> 
> undeveloped and barbaric = medieval
> 
> 
> What an odd definition of medieval. I certainly wouldn't consider Chartres Cathedral or Geoffrey Chaucer as either undeveloped or barbaric. How sad that you are so divorced from history, lacking any cultural moorings it's no wonder you are so bitter.


does the presence of skyscrapers in riyadh equate with saudi arabia being a modern developed society?

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## Immigrunt

> In Myanmar we say 'ba' to make a sentence polite. Crazy,eh?


With exactly the same function as krab and ka?

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## Crestofawave

> Originally Posted by armstrong
> 
> 
> my wife told me to fuck off today but put kha on the end.   kinda softened the blow a tad.
> 
> 
> 
> It was probably this one ฆ่า, or this one ข้า


That's funny.

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## EMB

Although this thread is rather an old one I read it with much interest. I see that Dr.Bob says that “krap” and “ka” were introduced by Plaek Phibunsonkram. I must confess that this statement came as a surprise to me. 

  I see from dictionaries that ครับ is a corrupted form of ขอรับ.

  For instance, in the time of Rama V, a male person speaking to an equal of higher person would add ขอรับ or sometimes use ขอรับผม.
  And in McFarlands Thai-English dictionary we find that when speaking to somebody with the rank of a Mom Chao you had to add ขอรับกระหม่อม, and when speaking to a “Royal Highness” (Somdet Chao Phaya or higher) you had to add ขอรับใส่เกล้าใส่กระหม่อม.

  I would like to understand what Plaek Phibunsongkram exactly did. Did he really invent the word “krab” (and “ka”)? Or was there a situation that before Phibunsonkhram only people of higher rank spoke politely by using these phrases and Phibunsonkram advised the normal people to use these expression(s) too? In order to get civilized?

  If anybody knows please tell me. Thank you.

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## DrB0b

> I see that Dr.Bob says that “krap” and “ka” were introduced by Plaek Phibunsonkram. I must confess that this statement came as a surprise to me.


He didn't invent it but he did make it universal. 




> I would like to understand what Plaek Phibunsongkram exactly did


Search up on Plaek's "Cultural Mandates", fascinating stuff and the foundation of much of modern Thailand, particularly the parts that people think are ancient Thailand /Siam.

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## Hugh Cow

There seems to be many cultural similarities between India and Thailand such as wyeing and different positions of the hands according to status. I wonder if some of these differentiations are the Thai equivalent of or were influenced by the Indian caste system. Has anyone yet done a thread on this? My knowledge of both systems is insufficient to start one.

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## DrB0b

> There seems to be many cultural similarities between India and Thailand such as wyeing and different positions of the hands according to status. I wonder if some of these differentiations are the Thai equivalent of or were influenced by the Indian caste system. Has anyone yet done a thread on this? My knowledge of both systems is insufficient to start one.


Not the caste system but hinduism has been a massive influence in SE Asia with Hindu Empires controlling much of it at times. The Thai national epic is the ramayana, Royalty have Brahmin priests, the influence of India is pervasive. It’s a huge subject and there’s a lot of information out there about this. I wrote some stuff on here about the subject over ten years ago, doubt it’s still around.

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## RiciAris

Thats true. Indeed, there would be many more headaches in Thailand as people try to think of how to speak or be polite or give simple affirmations without using kaa/krap etc.

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