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## crippen

Has Osama Bin Laden been dead for seven years - and are the U.S. and Britain covering it up to continue war on terror?
By SUE REID
Last updated at 10:59 PM on 11th September 2009

The last time we heard a squeak from him was on June 3 this year.
The world's most notorious terrorist outsmarted America by releasing a menacing message as Air Force One touched down on Saudi Arabian soil at the start of Barack Obama's first and much vaunted Middle East tour.
Even before the new President alighted at Riyadh airport to shake hands with Prince Abdullah, Bin Laden's words were being aired on TV, radio and the internet across every continent.
It was yet another propaganda coup for the 52-year-old Al Qaeda leader. In the audiotape delivered to the Arab news network Al Jazeera, Bin Laden said that America and her Western allies were sowing seeds of hatred in the Muslim world and deserved dire consequences.
It was the kind of rant we have heard from him before, and the response from British and U.S. intelligence services was equally predictable.
They insisted that the details on the tape, of the President's visit and other contemporary events, proved that the mastermind of 9/11, America's worst ever terrorist atrocity, was still alive - and that the hunt for him must go on.
Bin Laden has always been blamed for orchestrating the horrific attack - in which nearly 3,000 people perished - eight years ago this week. President George W. Bush made his capture a national priority, infamously promising with a Wild West flourish to take him 'dead or alive'.
The U.S. State Department offered a reward of $50million for his whereabouts. The FBI named him one of their ten 'most wanted' fugitives, telling the public to watch out for a left-handed, grey-bearded gentleman who walks with a stick.
Yet this master terrorist remains elusive. He has escaped the most extensive and expensive man-hunt in history, stretching across Waziristan, the 1,500 miles of mountainous badlands on the borders of Pakistan and Afghanistan.
Undeterred, Barack Obama has launched a fresh operation to find him. Working with the Pakistani Army, elite squads of U.S. and British special forces were sent into Waziristan this summer to 'hunt and kill' the shadowy figure intelligence officers still call 'the principal target' of the war on terror.
This new offensive is, of course, based on the premise that the 9/11 terrorist is alive. After all, there are the plethora of 'Bin Laden tapes' to prove it.
Yet what if he isn't? What if he has been dead for years, and the British and U.S. intelligence services are actually playing a game of double bluff?
What if everything we have seen or heard of him on video and audio tapes since the early days after 9/11 is a fake - and that he is being kept 'alive' by the Western allies to stir up support for the war on terror?
Incredibly, this is the breathtaking theory that is gaining credence among political commentators, respected academics and even terror experts.
Of course, there have been any number of conspiracy theories concerning 9/11, and it could be this is just another one.
But the weight of opinion now swinging behind the possibility that Bin Laden is dead - and the accumulating evidence that supports it - makes the notion, at the very least, worthy of examination.
The theory first received an airing in the American Spectator magazine earlier this year when former U.S. foreign intelligence officer and senior editor Angelo M. Codevilla, a professor of international relations at Boston University, stated bluntly: 'All the evidence suggests Elvis Presley is more alive today than Osama Bin Laden.'

9/11: Bin Laden originally insisted in official press statements that he had played no role in the atrocity
Prof Codevilla pointed to inconsistencies in the videos and claimed there have been no reputable sightings of Bin Laden for years (for instance, all interceptions by the West of communications made by the Al Qaeda leader suddenly ceased in late 2001).
Prof Codevilla asserted: 'The video and audio tapes alleged to be Osama's never convince the impartial observer,' he asserted. 'The guy just does not look like Osama. Some videos show him with a Semitic, aquiline nose, while others show him with a shorter, broader one. Next to that, differences between the colours and styles of his beard are small stuff.'
There are other doubters, too. Professor Bruce Lawrence, head of Duke University's religious studies' department and the foremost Bin Laden expert, argues that the increasingly secular language in the video and audio tapes of Osama (his earliest ones are littered with references to God and the Prophet Mohammed) are inconsistent with his strict Islamic religion, Wahhabism. 
He notes that, on one video, Bin Laden wears golden rings on his fingers, an adornment banned among Wahhab.
This week, still more questions have been raised with the publication in America and Britain of a book called Osama Bin Laden: Dead or Alive?
Written by political analyst and philosopher Professor David Ray Griffin, former emeritus professor at California's Claremont School of Theology, it is provoking shock waves - for it goes into far more detail about his supposed death and suggests there has been a cover-up by the West.
The book claims that Bin Laden died of kidney failure, or a linked complaint, on December 13, 2001, while living in Afghanistan's Tora Bora mountains close to the border with Waziristan.
His burial took place within 24 hours, in line with Muslim religious rules, and in an unmarked grave, which is a Wahhabi custom.
The author insists that the many Bin Laden tapes made since that date have been concocted by the West to make the world believe Bin Laden is alive. The purpose? To stoke up waning support for the war on terror in Iraq and Afghanistan.
To understand Griffin's thesis, we must remember the West's reaction to 9/11, that fateful sunny September day in 2001. Within a month, on Sunday, October 7, the U.S. and Britain launched massive retaliatory air strikes in the Tora Bora region where they said 'prime suspect' Bin Laden was living 'as a guest of Afghanistan'.
This military offensive ignored the fact that Bin Laden had already insisted four times in official Al Qaeda statements made to the Arab press that he played no role in 9/11.
Indeed, on the fourth occasion, on September 28 and a fortnight after the atrocity, he declared emphatically: 'I have already said I am not involved. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge... nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act.'
Within hours of the October 7 strikes by the U.S. on Tora Bora, Bin Laden made his first ever appearance on video tape. Dressed in Army fatigues, and with an Islamic head-dress, he had an assault rifle propped behind him in a broadly lit mountain hideout. Significantly, he looked pale and gaunt.
Although he called President George W. Bush 'head of the infidels' and poured scorn on the U.S., he once again rejected responsibility for 9/11.
'America was hit by God in one of its softest spots. America is full of fear, from its north to its south, from its west to its east. Thank God for that.'
Then came a second videotape on November 3, 2001. Once again, an ailing Bin Laden lashed out at the United States. He urged true Muslims to celebrate the attacks - but did not at any time acknowledge he had been involved in the atrocity.
And then there was silence until December 13, 2001 - the date Griffin claims Bin Laden died. That very day, the U.S. Government released a new video of the terror chief. In this tape, Bin Laden contradicted all his previous denials, and suddenly admitted to his involvement in the atrocity of 9/11.
The tape had reportedly been found by U.S. troops in a private home in Jalalabad, Afghanistan, after anti-Taliban forces took over the city. A label attached to it claimed that it had been made on November 9, 2001.

Bush made Bin Laden's capture a national priority, claiming he could get his man - dead or alive
The tape shows Bin Laden talking with a visiting sheik. In it, he clearly states that he not only knew about the 9/11 atrocities in advance, but had planned every detail personally.
What manna for the Western authorities! This put the terrorist back in the frame over 9/11. The Washington Post quoted U.S. officials saying that the video 'offers the most convincing evidence of a connection between Bin Laden and the September 11 attacks'.
A euphoric President Bush added: 'For those who see this tape, they realise that not only is he guilty of incredible murder, but he has no conscience and no soul.'
In London, Downing Street said that the video was 'conclusive proof of his involvement'. The then Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, added: 'There is no doubt it is the real thing. People can see Bin Laden there, making those utterly chilling words of admission about his guilt for organising the atrocities of September 11.'
Yet Professor Griffin claims this 'confessional' video provokes more questions than answers. For a start, the Bin Laden in this vital film testimony looks different. 
He is a weighty man with a black beard, not a grey one. His pale skin had suddenly become darker, and he had a different shaped nose. His artistic hands with slender fingers had transformed into those of a pugilist. He looked in exceedingly good health.
Furthermore, Bin Laden can be seen writing a note with his right hand, although he is left-handed. Bizarrely, too, he makes statements about 9/11 which Griffin claims would never have come from the mouth of the real Bin Laden - a man with a civil engineering degree who had made his fortune (before moving into terrorism) from building construction in the Middle East.
For example, the Al Qaeda leader trumpets that far more people died in 9/11 than he had expected. He goes on: 'Due to my experience in this field, I was thinking that the explosion from the gas in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only. That is all we had hoped for.' (In reality the Twin Towers' completely fell down).
The words of the true Bin Laden? No, says Griffin, because of the obvious mistakes. 'Given his experience as a contractor, he would have known the Twin Towers were framed with steel, not iron,' he says.
'He would also known that steel and iron do not begin to melt until they reach 2,800 deg F. Yet a building fire fed by jet fuel is a hydrocarbon fire, and could not have reached above 1,800 deg F.'
Griffin, in his explosive book, says this tape is fake, and he goes further.
'A reason to suspect that all of the post-2001 Bin Laden tapes are fabrications is that they often appeared at times that boosted the Bush presidency or supported a claim by its chief 'war on terror' ally, British Prime Minister Tony Blair.
'The confession tape came exactly when Bush and Blair had failed to prove Bin Laden's responsibility for 9/11 and both men were trying to win international public support, particularly in the Islamic world, for the anti-terrorist campaign.'
Griffin suggests that Western governments used highly sophisticated, special effects film technology to morph together images and vocal recordings of Bin Laden.
So if they are fakes, why has Al Qaeda kept quiet about it? And what exactly happened to the real Bin Laden?
The answer to the first question may be that the amorphous terrorist organisation is happy to wage its own propaganda battle in the face of waning support - and goes along with the myth that its charismatic figurehead is still alive to encourage recruitment to its cause. 
As for the matter of what happened to him, hints of Bin Laden's kidney failure, or that he might be dead, first appeared on January 19, 2002, four months after 9/11.
This was when Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf told America's news show CNN: 'I think now, frankly, he is dead for the reason he is a kidney patient. The images of him show he is extremely weak.'
In his book, Professor Griffin also endorses this theory. He says Bin Laden was treated for a urinary infection, often linked to kidney disease, at the American Hospital in Dubai in July 2001, two months before 9/11. At the same time, he ordered a mobile dialysis machine to be delivered to Afghanistan.
How could Bin Laden, on the run in snowy mountain caves, have used the machine that many believe was essential to keep him alive? Doctors whom Griffin cites on the subject think it would have been impossible.
He would have needed to stay in one spot with a team of medics, hygienic conditions, and a regular maintenance programme for the dialysis unit itself.
And what of the telling, small news item that broke on December 26, 2001 in the Egyptian newspaper Al-Wafd? It said a prominent official of the Afghan Taliban had announced that Osama Bin Laden had been buried on or about December 13.
'He suffered serious complications and died a natural, quiet death. He was buried in Tora Bora, a funeral attended by 30 Al Qaeda fighters, close members of his family and friends from the Taliban. By the Wahhabi tradition, no mark was left on the grave,' said the report.
The Taliban official, who was not named, said triumphantly that he had seen Bin Laden's face in his shroud. 'He looked pale, but calm, relaxed and confident.'
It was Christmas in Washington DC and London and the report hardly got a mention. Since then, the Bin Laden tapes have emerged with clockwork regularity as billions have been spent and much blood spilt on the hunt for him.
Bin Laden has been the central plank of the West's 'war on terror'. Could it be that, for years, he's just been smoke and mirrors

Read more: Has Osama Bin Laden been dead for seven years - and are the U.S. and Britain covering it up to continue war on terror? | Mail Online

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## Marmite the Dog

> Has Osama Bin Laden been dead for seven years - and are the U.S. and Britain covering it up to continue war on terror?


It wouldn't be a big surprise. Both countries' governments are a disgrace.

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## Muadib

I have to remind myself every now and then just why we are in Afghanistan...

War in Afghanistan (2001âpresent) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The *War in Afghanistan*, which began on October 7, 2001 as the U.S. military operation Operation Enduring Freedom, was launched by the United States with the United Kingdom in response to the September 11 attacks.


The stated aim of the invasion was to find Osama bin Laden and other high-ranking Al-Qaeda members and put them on trial, to destroy the whole organization of Al-Qaeda, and to remove the Taliban regime which supported and gave safe harbor to Al-Qaeda. The United States' Bush Doctrine stated that, as policy, it would not distinguish between terrorist organisations and nations or governments that harbor them.


Two military operations in Afghanistan are fighting for control over the country. Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF) is a United States combat operation involving some coalition partners and currently operating primarily in the eastern and southern parts of the country along the Pakistan border. Approximately 28,300 U.S. troops are in OEF.[2][4][5]


The second operation is the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF), which was established by the UN Security Council at the end of December 2001 to secure Kabul and the surrounding areas. NATO assumed control of ISAF in 2003. By July 23, 2009, ISAF had around 64,500 troops from 42 countries, with NATO members providing the core of the force. The United States has approximately 29,950 troops in ISAF.[2]


The U.S. and the UK led the aerial bombing campaign, with ground forces supplied primarily by the Afghan Northern Alliance. In 2002, American, British and Canadian infantry were committed, along with special forces from several allied nations including Australia. Later, NATO troops were added.


The initial attack removed the Taliban from power, but Taliban forces have since regained some strength.[23] The war has been less successful in achieving the goal of restricting al-Qaeda's movement than anticipated.[24] Since 2006, Afghanistan has seen threats to its stability from increased Taliban-led insurgent activity, record-high levels of illegal drug production,[25][26] and a fragile government with limited control outside of Kabul.[27]

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## mtone9317

Probably 99% of Americans don't care whether he is alive or dead. If he is alive, he is living in a cave full of constant fear that even his friends might betray him, and as far as we know in poor health. Radical Islam is responsible for most of the world's conflicts: Middle East, Africa, South East Asia, Phillipines, Indoniesia...
If the world is going to have peace, the Islamists have to give up the idea that it is their right to kill someone who doesn't believe in their particular brand of Islam.

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## Marmite the Dog

> Radical Islam is responsible for most of the world's conflicts: Middle East


I think you'll find it is the radical Christian governments of the US and the UK who are responsible for those conflicts.

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## BobR

Christianity is every bit as silly, damaging and mind numbing as the Muslims are.  Both are extreme examples of the incredible levels human stupidity can reach.

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## sabang

The OP makes interesting reading, but I doubt it. For a start, OBL would be just as potent a symbol for radical Islam as a dead Martyr, than as a living icon cowering in a cave.

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## dirtydog

Hasn't he got something wrong with his kidneys and needs dialysis every few days?
So for the last few years they have been doing that in his cave?

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## BugginOut

> USAMA BIN LADEN IS WANTED IN CONNECTION WITH THE AUGUST 7, 1998, BOMBINGS OF THE UNITED STATES EMBASSIES IN DAR ES SALAAM, TANZANIA, AND NAIROBI, KENYA. THESE ATTACKS KILLED OVER 200 PEOPLE. IN ADDITION, BIN LADEN IS A SUSPECT IN OTHER TERRORIST ATTACKS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.


This is from the FBI's Top 10 List of Fugitives. Notice it says nothing about 9/11. It also states that he is left-handed. He is also in a video firing a rifle left-handed as well.




> Two military operations in Afghanistan are fighting for control over the country. Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF) is a United States combat operation involving some coalition partners and currently operating primarily in the eastern and southern parts of the country along the Pakistan border. Approximately 28,300 U.S. troops are in OEF.[2][4][5]
> --Muadib


Does anybody else here find it ironic that the US would be engaging in a military campaign of retribution to "spread freedom"  to the people of Afghanistan and call it Operation Enduring Freedom? To endure meansto suffer a hardship, especially without giving in.




> Christianity is every bit as silly, damaging and mind numbing as the Muslims are. Both are extreme examples of the incredible levels human stupidity can reach.
> --Sabang


So is Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and the rest of the lot. Ban it all, I say!

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## zubber

he is prolly living in edgware road London ,thats the best place to hide ,and he follows Arsenal football team so he may even be attending the matches .
no need for all that cave hiding when he is safer in Londonistan amongst his mates . :smiley laughing:

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## zubber

amongst his mates 

Pervez Musharraf: £25,000 to protect him at London dinners - Times Online

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## StrontiumDog

Well, I hope he is dead. If not, then it just proves how hundred of billions on war achieves nothing.

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## genghis61

_"The FBI named him one of their ten 'most wanted' fugitives, telling the public to watch out for a left-handed, grey-bearded gentleman who walks with a stick._"

I've met this guy, buys his water, a Singha and a Bangkok Post and sits at a table near the entrance to the temple at Karon. Has a bad Swedish accent and calls hinself Knut . . . I knew there was somehting suspect about him.

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## blackgang

Hell no he is not dead, I just saw him 3 days ago on Aljazeera news and he looked healthy to me,, coarse it might have been somone else too as they all look alike to me anyway.
But if I knew where he was I would damn sure drop a dime on him for the $25 million.

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## DrivingForce

Damn! I was just thinking something similar today only I was thinking is he worth more dead or alive?? I think he's worth more alive both strategically, politically and economically..
1) If they kill him instead of letting his kidneys do it for them he becomes a martyr.
2) If his kidneys get him they've lost some influence but not as much as if they kill him..
3) Politically he is a pawn to help the worlds politicians gain ground on their foes..
4) Economically there is ton of money being made in his name to do away with him and fight the wars and this will be let down if he is finally done away with and they'll lose ground on the economic politics of fighting on..

So the answer for me is more like; can they afford to kill him even if they know where he is and would they do it?? There is much at stake..

But I don't beleive he is dead or has been as the martyrdom might be worth more to the cause then his living so if he was dead it seems they would have used that pawn when it was more optimum to do so which was back 7 years ago..

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## DrivingForce

> he is prolly living in edgware road London ,thats the best place to hide ,and he follows Arsenal football team so he may even be attending the matches .
> no need for all that cave hiding when he is safer in Londonistan amongst his mates .


It's said that the best place to hide is in plain sight..  ::chitown::

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## dirtydog

^I've always found the best place is up on roofs  :Smile:

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## pickel

> Damn! I was just thinking something similar today only I was thinking is he worth more dead or alive?? I think he's worth more alive both strategically, politically and economically.. 
> 1) If they kill him instead of letting his kidneys do it for them he becomes a martyr.
> 2) If his kidneys get him they've lost some influence but not as much as if they kill him.. 
> 3) Politically he is a pawn to help the worlds politicians gain ground on their foes.. 
> 4) Economically there is ton of money being made in his name to do away with him and fight the wars and this will be let down if he is finally done away with and they'll lose ground on the economic politics of fighting on..  So the answer for me is more like; can they afford to kill him even if they know where he is and would they do it?? There is much at stake..  But I don't beleive he is dead or has been as the martyrdom might be worth more to the cause then his living so if he was dead it seems they would have used that pawn when it was more optimum to do so which was back 7 years ago..


Sometimes, though it is extremely rare, you have a lucid post. If you weren't such an idiot most of the time, I would have enough ammo to green you.

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## dirtydog

> so if he was dead it seems they would have used that pawn when it was more optimum to do so which was back 7 years ago


They can use that pawn whenever they wish regardless of whether he is dead or not.

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## crazy dog

> Originally Posted by mtone9317
> 
> Radical Islam is responsible for most of the world's conflicts: Middle East
> 
> 
> I think you'll find it is the radical Christian governments of the US and the UK who are responsible for those conflicts.



I thought it was Islamic armies who have attacked Israel several times since 1947 not Christian ones. The poor old Palestinian 'victims' could have had their homeland several times, but they would have to give up their hatred and accept the existence of Israel and they just cannot bring themselves to. This particular conflict has never really been about land but religion.

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## blackgang

> This particular conflict has never really been about land but religion.


What are you doing with that NIC, fuck man you ain't crazy at all, I was wondering how long it would take someone to figutre that out, I can remembner when it started, few hundred jews wanting a place to live and a few million Arabs saying NO Fucking Way we giving our land to Jews, we will run them into the sea, and next day the jews got up, the Arabs got shit in their necks and ran away, 5 million of em and 200k Jews on their ass like a short overcoat.

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## crazy dog

Welcome back, whatever people say they missed you when you were in prison.

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## DrivingForce

> Originally Posted by DrivingForce
> 
> so if he was dead it seems they would have used that pawn when it was more optimum to do so which was back 7 years ago
> 
> 
> They can use that pawn whenever they wish regardless of whether he is dead or not.


True they can, but where strategy for more impact is concerned it seems that they have waited too long as the open window for maximum impact has passed IMO, they would get a boost but not significantly and short lived. 

The numbers are dropping more rapidly as they have shown their true colors by attacking so many of their own, the politics would have played out better if they had played that card earlier.. If they do it now it's tantamount to jumping the shark..

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## dirtydog

Of course, we seem to be forgetting that the majority of people involved with the attacks on America were Saudi nationals, Saudi nationals if you don't know come from or are nationals of a country called Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran and even North Korea are different countries from Saudi Arabia, whilst we are on this subject I would like to point out that Thai people generally do not speak Taiwanese.

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## DrivingForce

Eh?? Who's forgetting that??  :Confused:  And since when is radical Islam an exclusive Saudi manifestation??..

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## dirtydog

^Whats that on your shoulder? Can you brush it off?

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## Muadib

> Of course, we seem to be forgetting that the majority of people involved with the attacks on America were Saudi nationals, Saudi nationals if you don't know come from or are nationals of a country called Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran and even North Korea are different countries from Saudi Arabia, whilst we are on this subject I would like to point out that Thai people generally do not speak Taiwanese.


Let's not confuse the issue with facts DD... After all, the Saudi's are 'friends' to Merika...  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## DrivingForce

^^Speaking in tongues already? It's only 11:00Pm....

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## zubber

*  New Message Reported From bin Laden * 
 



   By MARK McDONALD
  Published: September 14, 2009 
           A new audiotape, reportedly from Osama bin Laden, denounced President Obama on Monday as no different from his predecessor and warned that anti-American attacks would not stop unless the United States ended the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
      The 11-minute, 20-second taped message, distributed online two days after the eighth anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks, also said American support for Israel was the main underlying reason for anger in the Muslim world. 
It was the first time in three months that a voice recording attributed to Mr. bin Laden had surfaced. Whether the voice was really that of Mr. bin Laden, the leader of Al Qaeda who is believed to be hiding somewhere in the Pakistan-Afghanistan border region, was not immediately clear.
The tape appeared on As-Sahab, the Arabic-language Web site used by Al Qaeda to deliver its messages. The recording was reported and translated by the SITE Intelligence Group and IntelCenter, two groups in the United States that monitor jihadist Web sites.
SITE said the message, which was released on Sept. 13, offered reasons for Al Qaeda’s attacks in New York and Washington on Sept. 11, 2001 and advised how the conflict between Al Qaeda and the United States might come to a close.
 “The time has come for you to liberate yourselves from fear and the ideological terrorism of neoconservatives and the Israeli lobby,” the voice attributed to Mr. bin Laden said. “The reason for our dispute with you is your support for your ally Israel, occupying our land in Palestine.”
The voice on the tape also said that the White House had shown no real shift in policy under the Obama administration because it is “occupied by pressure groups” that control it. And it warned that unless the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were ended, “we will have no choice but to continue our war of attrition on every front.”
 SITE said the message consisted of a still image of Mr. bin Laden with a voice track underneath. It was not possible to verify that the recording was actually made by Mr. bin Laden.
The last tape attributed to Mr. bin Laden was issued June 3. That message, which came as President Obama was embarking on a tour of Muslim countries, warned the United States about its policies in Pakistan. 
It said the new American administration had sowed new seeds of hatred among Muslims. 
“I think the reports we’ve seen are consistent with messages we’ve seen in the past from Al Qaeda threatening the U.S. and other countries that are involved in counterterrorism efforts,” the White House spokesman, Robert Gibbs, said at the time. “But I don’t think it’s surprising that Al Qaeda would want to shift attention away from the president’s historic efforts and continued efforts to reach out and have an open dialogue with the Muslim world.”

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## English Noodles

*Fidel Castro has said Osama bin Laden is in the pay of the CIA and  was summoned up whenever George W Bush needed to scare the world.*


 
Mr Castro believes Osama bin Laden is a bought and paid for American spy


"Any time Bush would stir up fear and make a big speech, bin  Laden would appear threatening people with a story about what he was  going to do," Mr Castro said.
  "Bush never lacked for bin Laden's support. He was a subordinate."
*Mr Castro*  made his remarks during a meeting with Lithuanian-born writer Daniel  Estulin known for advancing conspiracy theories about world domination.
  He said documents posted on WikiLeaks.org, the website that released  thousands of classified US documents about the war in Afghanistan,  "effectively proved he was a CIA agent".
  However, the former Cuban president - who himself became America's  enemy no.1 and survived multiple assassination attempts by the CIA - did  not further elaborate.
  During the meeting, Mr Estulin told Mr Castro that the real voice of  bin Laden was last heard in late 2001, not long after the September 11  attacks.
  He said the person heard making warnings about terror attacks after that was a "bad actor".


 
Mr Castro cited the whistleblower website WikiLeaks as his source

   Mr Castro did take exception with one of Mr Estulin's major theses -  that the human race must move to another habitable planet or face  extinction.
  The 84-year-old revolutionary said it would be better to fix things on Earth then abandon the planet altogether.
  "Humanity ought to take care of itself if it wants to live thousands more years," Mr Castro told the writer.
  Mr Castro stepped down due to ill health in 2006 - first temporarily,  then permanently - and handed power over to his younger brother Raul.
  He has remained head of the Cuban Communist party but stayed out of  view for four years after falling sick before returning to the spotlight  in July.
  His comments about the al Qeada leader are the latest in a series of provocative statements.
  Recently he warned that the planet is on the brink of nuclear war.
  Mr Castro even predicted the threat of global conflict would mean  that the final rounds of the World Cup would be cancelled last month.
  He later apologised for jumping the gun.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Wor...care_The_World

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## superman

Sorry to say Mr Noodles, but the thread's already in production.

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## good2bhappy

Fidel (sticks)

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## Ripley

Maybe not on the payroll but employed as current Boogey-Man to justify shredding of the Constitution and  grotesque  " defense" expenditures ... yeah.

 And he was trained by CIA in Afghanistan to fight  the Russian Army.

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## dirtydog

> The 84-year-old revolutionary said it would be better to fix things on Earth then abandon the planet altogether.


I'm all for abandoning the planet, send off all the men first and I will stay here and look after the women, I will need some male helpers to help me repopulate the world and there will be a small fee.

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## Mid

วันจันทร์ ที่ 18 ต.ค. 2553 

Al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden is living comfortably in house  in northwest Pakistan close to his deputy Ayman al-Zawahiri: CNN

mcot.net

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## Agent_Smith

Wouldn't surprise me one bit if in the future we discover that 9/11 was some elaborate Gulf of Tonkin type incident cooked up to re-invigorate a waning military-industrial complex here in the US.  Bin Laden will be discovered to have been a convenient antagonist chosen by the plotters to focus the public's attention.  

Certainly wouldn't be the first time we've been lied to about this sort of shit.

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## Pol the Pot

It's still not true that Islam is responsible for *most* of the world's conflicts.

But generalizations make arguing so much easier.

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## Thaihome

> Wouldn't surprise me one bit if in the future we discover that 9/11 was some elaborate Gulf of Tonkin type incident cooked up to re-invigorate a waning military-industrial complex here in the US. Bin Laden will be discovered to have been a convenient antagonist chosen by the plotters to focus the public's attention. 
> 
> Certainly wouldn't be the first time we've been lied to about this sort of shit.


I fail to see the parallel with the Gulf of Tonkin incident. I think the more appropriate comparison for what you seem to be suggesting would be what is referred to as Operation Himmler in which Germany staged a series of events, which included murdering several concentration camps prisoners and leaving the bodies in Polish uniforms, in order to justify the eventual invasion of Poland in September 1939.
TH

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## Thormaturge

I thought it was George Bush who had been dead for seven years, five of which were during his presidency.

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## harrybarracuda

> It's still not true that Islam is responsible for *most* of the world's conflicts.
> 
> But generalizations make arguing so much easier.


Exaggeration also helps, and I've told you that a million times.

----------


## Mid

*Bin Laden's hideout still a mystery*
Oct. 20, 2010

 _
This picture of al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden was a  government exhibit for the sentencing trial of Zacarias Moussaoui, who  took the stand in his own defense on April 13, 2006.  Moussaoui is a  confessed al-Qaida conspirator for the 9/11 attacks on the World Trade  Center and Pentagon._ 
(UPI Photo/files)  

*BEIRUT*, Lebanon, Oct. 20 (UPI) -- A senior NATO  official says Osama bin Laden is living  comfortably in northwestern Pakistan protected by loyal tribesmen and  Pakistani intelligence officials.

 The unnamed official, who is involved in the war in Afghanistan and  reportedly has access to sensitive intelligence material, said the  al-Qaida chief and his Egyptian deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri, are moving  separately between houses in the Chitral district and the Kurram Valley.

 That means they've pretty much come full circle since they fled  Afghanistan during the battle for the mountain hideout at Tora Bora near  the Pakistan border in December 2001. The area where they are reported  to be holed up neighbors Tora Bora.

 Bin Laden's whereabouts have been something of a mystery since he  escaped from U.S. Special Forces at Tora Bora. Recent U.S. reports have  placed him in the tribal lands of Pakistan's North Waziristan region,  which is much further south than the location given by the NATO  official.

 U.S. intelligence claimed that bin Laden has to be constantly on the  move to evade his pursuers, particularly the ever-increasing airstrikes  by missile-armed U.S. drones that reportedly have killed a score of his  lieutenants over the last 18 months.

 The elusive al-Qaida warlord has often been portrayed as living rough  in caves, out of contact with his jihadist network.

 But, the NATO official told CNN, "Nobody in al-Qaida is living in a  cave."

 Michael Scheuer, a former CI officer who ran the unit charged with  tracking bin Laden, observed that the official's report "exposes the lie  that Bush and Obama have been telling us since 9/11 that he was running  from rock to rock and cave to cave."

 But Scheuer, who has been highly critical of U.S. operations against  al-Qaida, also doubts that the official's observations reflect any  significant intelligence breakthrough.

 "If there was genuine intel," he told The Upshot Web site, "they'd  not go public with it. They would try to kill him."

 He said he believes that shooting down the myth bin Laden is on the  run, cut off from his forces, means "we're just facing reality at last.  Bin Laden lives among people who a) regard him as an Islamic hero and,  b) whose tribal mores require them to protect a guest with their own  lives."

 Pakistani officials deny bin Laden is holed up in their country.

 Although the NATO official provided no evidence to support his  contention that bin Laden is protected by Pakistani intelligence, the  Americans have long claimed the principal agency, the Inter-Services  Intelligence directorate, or at least elements within it, have close  links to the Islamist militants.

 But wherever bin Laden may be, the contention that since 9/11 he's  been isolated by the U.S.-led manhunt for him and thus marginalized with  little or no power has spurred questions about whether he is relevant  any more.
 In January, bin Laden released an audio tape praising a young  Nigerian who allegedly tried to blow up a U.S. airliner over Detroit on  Christmas Day 2009.

 The tape "raised the question of whether he's now only an irrelevant  militant seeking to associate himself with even failed attacks  originated by groups he doesn't control," observed al-Qaida specialist  Peter Bergen who interviewed bin Laden in Afghanistan before 9/11.

 He argues that although bin Laden is supposedly holed up in  Pakistan's badlands, his ideas and strategy remain a powerful tool for  global jihad and has inspired repeated attacks on the West.

 While the jihadists have been unable to repeat the catastrophic 2001  attack on the United States, they still pose a grave threat because  their network is so diffuse and increasingly able to penetrate the West.

 "According to Spanish prosecutors, the late leader of the Pakistani  Taliban, Baitullah Mehsud, sent a team of would-be suicide bombers to  attack Barcelona's public transport system in January 2008," Bergen  said.

 "Luckily, the alleged plotters were arrested before the plan was  carried out …
 "Bin Laden has fallen relatively silent, seemingly more worried about  staying alive than staying relevant," Bergen noted.

 "Still, as he enters late middle age -- family members say he turned  53 in February -- he may take some satisfaction that his message  continues to resonate with all too many disaffected men, from  Connecticut to Kandahar."

upi.com

----------


## raycarey

> WASHINGTON--Osama bin Laden has  been killed, a United States official said Sunday night.        
>  President Obama is  expected to make an announcement on Sunday night,  almost ten years after the  September 11 attacks on the World Trade  Center and the  Pentagon.


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/02/wo...killed.html?hp

----------


## hillbilly

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Al-Qaida mastermind Osama bin Laden is dead and the United States has his body, a person familiar with the developments says.

President Barack Obama is expected to make that announcement from the White House late Sunday night.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...MPLATE=DEFAULT

----------


## sabang

Why is this in MKP??
Looks like it's true.

----------


## raycarey

official details as yet unreleased, but apparently it was US military action and they have his body....and can match it to his confirmed DNA.

----------


## sabang

CNN says it has been told by several administration and Congressional sources that Osama bin Laden — the architect of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks — is dead and that the U.S. has his body.
President Obama was expected to make an unprecedented statement at the White House late Sunday night to confirm the reports.
http://www.wfaa.com/news/national/BR...tml:bananaman:

----------


## sabang

There goes the faintest hope for the GOP in 2012.  :mid:

----------


## koman

Killed a week ago.  They were just waiting on DNA reports to confirm that it really was him.

----------


## socal

> WASHINGTON--Osama bin Laden has  been killed, a United States official said Sunday night.        
>  President Obama is  expected to make an announcement on Sunday night,  almost ten years after the  September 11 attacks on the World Trade  Center and the  Pentagon.        
> 			
> 		
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/02/wo...killed.html?hp


Are you going to cry ? :Smile:

----------


## Norton

He was killed in a mansion in Islamabad.

----------


## socal

> There goes the faintest hope for the GOP in 2012.


No. Obama is done regardless what the US military is up to

----------


## Carrabow

> Killed a week ago. They were just waiting on DNA reports to confirm that it really was him.


 They better not announce who did it, that will be a very dreadful situation for that group.

----------


## robuzo

In Pakistan? Figures. Good. Hope it hurt.

----------


## raycarey

anyone remember what happened 8 years ago today (EST)?

----------


## Chico the Fox

That's a shame. What excuses will America have for invading Arab countries to loot oil now?

----------


## socal

The USA has the body. 

It was a human operation, no drones used.

A dark moment for all the mulsim apologists :Smile:

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> 
> Killed a week ago. They were just waiting on DNA reports to confirm that it really was him.
> 
> 
>  They better not announce who did it, that will be a very dreadful situation for that group.


!0 mins ago they were reporting that he was killed by a US bomb, now they are saying he was shot?  Killed in a mansion in Islamabad....kind of takes away the  romantic idea of a bearded freedom fighter living out in caves and totin an AK47... :Confused:

----------


## sabang

A bright moment for mankind.  :Smile:

----------


## rickschoppers

Good riddens......I am watching CNN right now and they are stating that Osama bin Laden was killed while hiding in a mansion in Islamabad, the capital of Pakistan. It was from a result of a highly secret operation that was carried out by humans and not a drone. There is also talk about Pakistan cooperation. President Obama will be making a statement shortly.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

Guess we'll never know the truth about 9/11 now. Dead men tell no tales.
 ::chitown::

----------


## Butterfly

doesn't change a thing, he has fathered thousands of leaders now

----------


## raycarey

> A bright moment for mankind


also...

a moment of justice for the families of 9/11 victims

a proud moment for the US military

a fantastic political moment for the obama administration.

----------


## socal

> Guess we'll never know the truth about 9/11 now. Dead men tell no tales.


so i guess wikileaks is part of the conspiracy now...because they came up with nothing. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## shadow role

well the troops can come home now....right!

----------


## FailSafe

They've had his body for a week, and they waited until they could pre-empt 'The Apprentice' to make the announcement- coincidence?  I think not.

----------


## Butterfly

> anyone remember what happened 8 years ago today (EST)?


how many times have they killed him ? didn't they claim before to have his DNA to prove he was dead ?

the US government is one big joke,

at least GW Bush was a natural comedian, Obama is just plain sad

----------


## The Muffinman

Copied and pasted from the BBC website...

*Al-Qaeda leader Bin Laden 'dead'*

 Bin Laden is top of the US most wanted list 
Al-Qaeda founder and leader Osama Bin Laden is dead, US officials say.
The US is said to be in possession of Bin Laden's body. President Barack Obama is due to speak shortly.
The al-Qaeda leader was killed in a ground operation in a mansion outside Islamabad in an operation based on US intelligence, reports said.
Bin Laden is accused of being behind a number of atrocities, including the attacks on New York and Washington on 11 September 2001.
He is top of the US most wanted list.
*Crowds gathered outside the White House in Washington DC, chanting "USA, USA" after the news emerged.*

Some things never change...Idiot yanks. ::spin::

----------


## koman

> doesn't change a thing, he has fathered thousands of leaders now


And we have lots of drones.....and CIA ops.... :Smile:

----------


## Boon Mee

I wonder who's going to collect the reward?

----------


## Butterfly

> He was killed in a mansion in Islamabad.


he probably died in his sleep, peacefully

mission accomplished,

----------


## raycarey

> Originally Posted by raycarey
> 
> 
> anyone remember what happened 8 years ago today (EST)?
> 
> 
> how many times have they killed him ? didn't they claim before to have his DNA to prove he was dead ?


not that i'm aware of....and that's not what i'm referring to.

eight years ago today (EST)

----------


## Boon Mee

> doesn't change a thing, he has fathered thousands of leaders now


Yeah, right.  Like who?

----------


## Butterfly

^ Mission Accomplished in Iraq ?

----------


## rickschoppers

Just watched the statement by President Obama and he makes it official that Osama Bin Laden is, in fact, dead. We will see what happens now and true there are lots of other leaders, but this is a big psychological blow to their movement. President Obama stated that this came from a lead from last August. He authorized a targeted operation by a small team of Americans who killed Osama bin Laden and then took possession of the body.

----------


## Butterfly

are they going to put the body in Area 51 where they hide all the aliens body ?

----------


## Sakeopete

> That's a shame. What excuses will America have for invading Arab countries to loot oil now?


Don't worry they are after Ghadafi's oil now.

----------


## Attilla the Hen

The shit is going to hit the fan between the US and Pakistani intelligence agencies.
No way OBL was sitting in a nice mansion without the knowledge of the ISI

----------


## xanax

God Bless America And Thank You!

----------


## Boon Mee

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by raycarey
> ...


The only dates that matter are 9/11 and last week's where that POS finally expired.

----------


## superman

Why does his death improve the $ ? 



> The US dollar has risen sharply against the euro and yen amid reports of bin Laden's death.


 BIN LADEN DEAD - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

----------


## rickschoppers

Just watched the statement by President Obama and he makes it official that Osama Bin Laden is, in fact, dead. We will see what happens now and true there are lots of other leaders, but this is a big psychological blow to their movement. President Obama stated that this came from a lead from last August. He authorized a targeted operation by a small team of Americans who killed Osama bin Laden and then took possession of the body.

----------


## sabang

> doesn't change a thing, he has fathered thousands of leaders now


Like Qadaffi?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by raycarey
> ...


Mission Accomplished! That's one in Bush's eye.

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by Carrabow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by koman
> ...


 The news is the news, the US needs to stay vigil in case of a retalitory attack.

----------


## Bower

Good job USA, hold onto your hat and wait for the backlash !

----------


## Boon Mee

> Good job USA, hold onto your hat and wait for the backlash !


From whom...? :mid:

----------


## rickschoppers

Could just be the backlash that Osama bin Laden was in Pakistan even though that country said they had no proof of that. Guess they were wrong, or telling lies. Either way, there will be some backlash with Pakistan.

----------


## robuzo

^B-b-b-but Pakistan is an ally in the War on Terra!

----------


## Boon Mee

*George Bush Releases Statement On Bin Ladens Death*



Seven-time Tour de France winner Lance Armstrong has joined former  President George W. Bush on the last leg of a three-day, 62-mile  mountain bike ride with 15 American soldiers who lost limbs or suffered  serious injuries in Iraq or Afghanistan.

 (Chron.com)

*George W. Bush* released this statement earlier:
Earlier this evening, President Obama called to inform me  that American forces killed Osama bin Laden, the leader of the al Qaeda  network that attacked America on September 11, 2001.  I congratulated  him and the men and women of our military and intelligence communities  who devoted their lives to this mission.  They have our everlasting  gratitude.  This momentous achievement marks a victory for America, for  people who seek peace around the world, and for all those who lost loved  ones on September 11, 2001.  The fight against terror goes on, but  tonight America has sent an unmistakable message:  No matter how long it  takes, justice will be done.


Good on ya George!  The killers you sent after OBL might have taken a little longer than anticipated to accomplish the mission but indeed, the mission is now complete! :Smile:

----------


## Bower

> Originally Posted by Bower
> 
> 
> Good job USA, hold onto your hat and wait for the backlash !
> 
> 
> From whom...?


I very much doubt that the thugs of Al Qadea that have followed him will just put their weapons away.

As i said, good job USA but be vigilant for reprisals.

----------


## Boon Mee

Did y'all know that  Hitlers death was confirmed on May 1, 1945?

----------


## larvidchr

Really good news on a Monday "morning"  :Smile:  :bananaman: 

Good job US, and thank you, it needed to be done.

Calls for a real good coffee and a Monte Cristo on the porch.

----------


## Sailing into trouble

Let's hope the intelligence agencies have a better idea of the new leaders are. The news services are bragging that Pakistan helped, wonder how long before the bombs start killing more innocent people. 

What a screwed up world, 9ll and the London and Spanish bombings. The war in Afghanistan will still go on. Unless this is the excuse to call it a day and leave them to their own fate. I hope that this may weaken the resolve of those with hate in their hearts. But at best, I feel that we can expect a short reprieve, before the next hate monger grabs the headlines.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...74107920110502
*
*Al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden dead, Obama says*

 

             By Mark Hosenball and Jeff Mason
                  WASHINGTON |          Mon May 2, 2011 12:00am EDT         

  (Reuters) - Al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden was killed Sunday in a firefight with U.S. forces in Pakistan and his body was recovered, President Barack Obama announced Sunday.

  "Justice has been done," Obama  said in a dramatic, late-night White  House speech announcing the death  of the elusive mastermind of the  September 11, 2001, attacks on the New  York and Washington.

Obama said  U.S. forces led the operation that killed bin Laden. No  Americans were  killed in the operation and they took care to avoid  civilian casualties,  he said.

"The United States has  conducted an operation that killed Osama bin  Laden, the leader of al  Qaeda and a terrorist who is responsible for  the murder of thousands of  men, women and children," Obama said.

It  is a major accomplishment for Obama and his national security team,   after many Americans had given up hope of ever finding bin Laden.

A crowd gathered outside the White House to celebrate, chanting, "USA, USA."


Obama's  predecessor, George W. Bush, had repeatedly vowed to bring bin  Laden to  justice "dead or alive" for the September 11, 2001, attacks on  New York  and Washington that killed nearly 3,000 people, but never did  before  leaving office in early 2009.

U.S. officials said that after searching in vain for the al Qaeda leader since he disappeared in Afghanistan in late 2001, the Saudi-born extremist was killed in the Pakistani town of Abbotabad and his body recovered.

Having the body may help convince any doubters that bin Laden is really dead.

He  had been the subject of a search since he eluded U.S. soldiers and   Afghan militia forces in a large-scale assault on the Tora Bora   mountains of Afghanistan in 2001.

The trail quickly went cold after he disappeared and many intelligence officials believed he had been hiding in Pakistan.

While  in hiding, bin Laden had taunted the West and advocated his  militant  Islamist views in videotapes spirited from his hideaway.

Besides  September 11, Washington has also linked bin Laden to a string  of  attacks -- including the 1998 bombings of American embassies in  Kenya  and Tanzania and the 2000 bombing of the warship USS Cole in Yemen.

----------


## Butterfly

> Earlier this evening, President Obama called to inform me that American forces killed Osama bin Laden, the leader of the al Qaeda network that attacked America on September 11, 2001. I congratulated him and the men and women of our military and intelligence communities who devoted their lives to this mission. They have our everlasting gratitude. This momentous achievement marks a victory for America, for people who seek peace around the world, and for all those who lost loved ones on September 11, 2001. The fight against terror goes on, but tonight America has sent an unmistakable message: No matter how long it takes, justice will be done.


what about Iraq ?

----------


## socal

> Did y'all know that  Hitlers death was confirmed on May 1, 1945?


No thats cool.

But why not pick that date if you could.

----------


## StrontiumDog

Crowds celebrate outside the White House after President  Obama  announced that Osama Bin Laden was killed in a special op in  Pakistan  today. Photo by Ramy Yaacoub. (Taken with instagram)

http://abcworldnews.tumblr.com/post/...he-white-house

----------


## Boon Mee

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> Earlier this evening, President Obama called to inform me that American forces killed Osama bin Laden, the leader of the al Qaeda network that attacked America on September 11, 2001. I congratulated him and the men and women of our military and intelligence communities who devoted their lives to this mission. They have our everlasting gratitude. This momentous achievement marks a victory for America, for people who seek peace around the world, and for all those who lost loved ones on September 11, 2001. The fight against terror goes on, but tonight America has sent an unmistakable message: No matter how long it takes, justice will be done.
> 
> 
> what about Iraq ?


Yes, well, that's what they call a 'gray area'...

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Bush calls bin laden death momentous achievement | Reuters
*
*Bush calls bin laden death "momentous achievement"*

                      WASHINGTON |          Mon May 2, 2011 12:00am EDT         

  (Reuters) - Former President George W.  Bush, who was in office at the time of the September 11 attacks and  famously said he wanted Osama bin Laden dead or alive, said on Sunday  the death of the al Qaeda leader was a "momentous achievement."

  "The fight against terror goes  on, but tonight America has sent an unmistakable message: No matter how  long it takes, justice will be done," Bush said in a statement.

----------


## rickschoppers

> ^B-b-b-but Pakistan is an ally in the War on Terra!


Backlash is a broad term and could come in many different forms whether you are considered an ally or enemy. Pakistan has not done any big favors for the US lately even though President Obama said this was done with their cooperation. I have a feeling Pakistan is a little embarassed at the moment about where this all went down.

----------


## Thormaturge

I bet we don't get to know who collects the $ 25,000,000 reward.

----------


## Butterfly

> Yes, well, that's what they call a 'gray area'...


gray area in a black and white world ? don't think so,

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Statement by New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg on Bin laden’s death
*
*Statement by New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg on Bin laden’s death*

  Mon May  2 10:58:55 2011 by BNO News 

DALLAS  (BNO NEWS) — New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg on early Monday  morning released the following statement on the death of al-Qaeda leader  Osama bin Laden.

“After September 11, 2001, we gave our word as  Americans that we would stop at nothing to capture or kill Osama bin  Laden. After the contribution of millions, including so many who made  the ultimate sacrifice for our nation, we have kept that word.

“The  killing of Osama bin Laden does not lessen the suffering that New  Yorkers and Americans experienced at his hands, but it is a critically  important victory for our nation - and a tribute to the millions of men  and women in our armed forces and elsewhere who have fought so hard for  our nation.

“New Yorkers have waited nearly ten years for this  news. It is my hope that it will bring some closure and comfort to all  those who lost loved ones on September 11, 2001.”

----------


## Boon Mee

> Crowds celebrate outside the White House after President  Obama  announced that Osama Bin Laden was killed in a special op in  Pakistan  today. Photo by Ramy Yaacoub. (Taken with instagram)
> 
> http://abcworldnews.tumblr.com/post/...he-white-house


Heh...a little payback for that 'shower' in Pali-land and elsewhere who were celebrating on 9/11, eh?

----------


## taxexile

photo of the body anyone ??

----------


## StrontiumDog

Special Op forces carried out attack in Pak; in firefight, bin Laden was shot in the head; body returned to Afghanistan - NBC

----------


## Davis Knowlton

The reward won't go to the CIA or the military, so my guess is it will go to the unnamed person who provided the intelligence that led them to the site. And Thorm is correct, he certainly won't be named - more likely relocated with his family immediately, if not already.

----------


## rickschoppers

> Special Op forces carried out attack in Pak; in firefight, bin Laden was shot in the head; body returned to Afghanistan - NBC


Did he shoot himself or was he shot??

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Statement by U.S. Senator John McCain on Bin Laden’s death*

  Mon May  2 10:59:38 2011 by BNO News  ( Leave a comment ) 

PHOENIX  (BNO NEWS) — U.S. Senator John McCain, a former presidential candidate,  on early Monday morning released the following statement on the death  of al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.

“I am overjoyed that we  finally got the world’s top terrorist. The world is a better and more  just place now that Osama bin Laden is no longer in it. I hope the  families of the victims of the September 11th attacks will sleep easier  tonight and every night hence knowing that justice has been done. I  commend the President and his team, as well as our men and women in  uniform and our intelligence professionals, for this superb achievement.

“But  while we take heart in the news that Osama bin Laden is dead, we must  be mindful that al-Qaeda and its terrorist allies are still lethal and  determined enemies, and we must remain vigilant to defeat them.”


More at :  Statement by U.S. Senator John McCain on Bin Laden’s death

----------


## StrontiumDog

*[at] PeterThorneNews* : I'm in nyc at ground zero - cheering honking of horns strangers hugging singing god bless america

----------


## Boon Mee

I wonder when we'll get to see the long-form Death Certificate?  :rofl:

----------


## socal

He was living in a compound with 12 to 18 foot walls. The property was valued at 1 million and had no phone or internet access.

It was built is 2005.

----------


## superman

This is the last known photo of the man.

----------


## rickschoppers

Great photo, but they are saying he was shot in the head. Like the humor though.
 :rofl:  :rofl:

----------


## StrontiumDog

*http://asiancorrespondent.com/53572/...ear-islamabad/
*
*US official: Bin Laden killed near Islamabad*

_By AP News May 02, 2011 12:11PM UTC_ 

ISLAMABAD (AP) — An American official says Osama bin Laden was killed in a mansion close to the Pakistani capital.

  A Pakistani intelligence official confirmed that the al-Qaida leader had been killed in Pakistan.

 Both officials spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the information.

----------


## Dick

Was Bin Laden a Hassidic Jew ?

----------


## StrontiumDog

gracecaudle's photos - At WTC with a couple hundred others! Singing and cheering! "God Bless America!" | Plixi



At WTC with a couple hundred others! Singing and cheering! "God Bless America!"

----------


## rickschoppers

How long before someone makes a movie about the events of Osama's death?

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Reaction to bin Laden's death flows in - World news - South and Central Asia - Pakistan - msnbc.com

Bonnie McEneaney, 57, wife of Eamon McEneaney, who died in the 9/11 attacks 

*"It doesn't bring back all the wonderful people who were  killed 10 years ago. It's long overdue.""I'm completely numb. I'm  stunned," she told msnbc.com.*Jack Lynch, 75, who lost his son, New York City firefighter Michael Francis Lynch 

*"The first thought I had in my mind was that it didn't  bring my son back. You cut the head off a snake, you'd think it would  kill the snake. But someone will take his place. People like him still  exist. The fact that he's gone is not going to stop terrorism." "I  understand that bin Laden was an evil person. He may have believed in  what he was doing. I'm not going to judge him. I'm sure some people will  look at this and they'll be gratified that he's dead, but me  personally, I'm going to leave his fate in God's hands."

----------


## Dick

> How long before someone makes a movie about the events of Osama's death?


Can Jeff Goldblum play Binny ?

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
> ^B-b-b-but Pakistan is an ally in the War on Terra!
> 
> 
> Backlash is a broad term and could come in many different forms whether you are considered an ally or enemy. Pakistan has not done any big favors for the US lately even though President Obama said this was done with their cooperation. I have a feeling Pakistan is a little embarassed at the moment about where this all went down.


That assumes the ISI Sunni fanatics and militarists running Pakistan have any sense of shame, but yeah, they should be. The majority of Pakistanis are Sufis, and they, along with the Shias, have been victimized by the Sunni extremists as well, and so are probably happy with this.

----------


## StrontiumDog

ComfortablySmug's photos - TIMES SQ RIGHT NOW | Plixi



TIMES SQ RIGHT NOW

----------


## StrontiumDog

jimformanKING5   jimforman                                                  _by BreakingNews_ 

            9/11 widow on my flight. In tears. Comforted by entire cabin. Life altering event to see.

----------


## tuktukdriver

> Did y'all know that Hitlers death was confirmed on May 1, 1945?


Which just so happens to be the start of Holocaust Remembrence Day in Israel. Coincidence?

----------


## StrontiumDog

BreakingNews   Breaking News                                             

            US official, asked about bin Laden's body: 'We are assuring it is handled in accordance with Islamic practice and tradition.'

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Bin Laden killed in Pakistan, Obama says – This Just In - CNN.com Blogs
*
*[Updated, 12:35 a.m. ET]* The U.S. State Department  warned Americans living abroad of "enhanced potential for anti-American  violence" following the death of terrorist leader Osama bin Laden.  The  announcement was made in a worldwide travel alert issued early Monday.

*[Updated, 12:24 a.m. ET] * A team of U.S. Navy SEALs  carried out the operation in Pakistan that ended in the death of al  Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, CNN's Chris Lawrence reported.  The  operation lasted about 40 minutes, and the team had practiced the raid a  few times.

 Earlier, CNN's Nick Paton Walsh, citing  a senior Pakistani  intelligence official, reported that members of Pakistan's intelligence  service - the ISI - were on site in Abbotabad, Pakistan, during the  operation that killed  bin Laden. The official said he did not know who  fired the shot that actually killed Bin Laden.

----------


## koman

The SOB was living in a secure compound, surrounded by the Pakistan military establishment and just 60k from the capital.  Pretty impressive work by the Paki "intelligence" guys who are supposed to be on our side.... of course the Pakis have always been a reliable ally, well worth the billions we give them.... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Thetyim

> Did he shoot himself or was he shot??


Are you a thai policeman ?

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Transcript of President Obama’s Speech - Washington Wire - WSJ
*
*Transcript of President Obama’s Speech*

THE WHITE HOUSE
 Office of the Press Secretary
 __________________________________________________  ______________
 For Immediate Release                              May 1, 2011
 REMARKS BY THE PRESIDENT
 ON OSAMA BIN LADEN
 East Room
 11:35 P.M. EDT

 THE PRESIDENT:  Good evening.  Tonight, I can report to the American  people and to the world that the United States has conducted an  operation that killed Osama bin Laden, the leader of al Qaeda, and a  terrorist who’s responsible for the murder of thousands of innocent men,  women, and children.

 It was nearly 10 years ago that a bright September day was darkened  by the worst attack on the American people in our history.  The images  of 9/11 are seared into our national memory — hijacked planes cutting  through a cloudless September sky; the Twin Towers collapsing to the  ground; black smoke billowing up from the Pentagon; the wreckage of  Flight 93 in Shanksville, Pennsylvania, where the actions of heroic  citizens saved even more heartbreak and destruction.

 And yet we know that the worst images are those that were unseen to  the world.  The empty seat at the dinner table.  Children who were  forced to grow up without their mother or their father.  Parents who  would never know the feeling of their child’s embrace.  Nearly 3,000  citizens taken from us, leaving a gaping hole in our hearts.

 On September 11, 2001, in our time of grief, the American people came  together.  We offered our neighbors a hand, and we offered the wounded  our blood.  We reaffirmed our ties to each other, and our love of  community and country.  On that day, no matter where we came from, what  God we prayed to, or what race or ethnicity we were, we were united as  one American family.

 We were also united in our resolve to protect our nation and to bring  those who committed this vicious attack to justice.  We quickly learned  that the 9/11 attacks were carried out by al Qaeda — an organization  headed by Osama bin Laden, which had openly declared war on the United  States and was committed to killing innocents in our country and around  the globe.  And so we went to war against al Qaeda to protect our  citizens, our friends, and our allies.

 Over the last 10 years, thanks to the tireless and heroic work of our  military and our counterterrorism professionals, we’ve made great  strides in that effort.  We’ve disrupted terrorist attacks and  strengthened our homeland defense.  In Afghanistan, we removed the  Taliban government, which had given bin Laden and al Qaeda safe haven  and support.  And around the globe, we worked with our friends and  allies to capture or kill scores of al Qaeda terrorists, including  several who were a part of the 9/11 plot.

 Yet Osama bin Laden avoided capture and escaped across the Afghan  border into Pakistan.  Meanwhile, al Qaeda continued to operate from  along that border and operate through its affiliates across the world.

 And so shortly after taking office, I directed Leon Panetta, the  director of the CIA, to make the killing or capture of bin Laden the top  priority of our war against al Qaeda, even as we continued our broader  efforts to disrupt, dismantle, and defeat his network.

 Then, last August, after years of painstaking work by our  intelligence community, I was briefed on a possible lead to bin Laden.   It was far from certain, and it took many months to run this thread to  ground.  I met repeatedly with my national security team as we developed  more information about the possibility that we had located bin Laden  hiding within a compound deep inside of Pakistan.  And finally, last  week, I determined that we had enough intelligence to take action, and  authorized an operation to get Osama bin Laden and bring him to justice.

 Today, at my direction, the United  States launched a targeted  operation against that compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan.  A small team  of Americans carried out the operation with extraordinary courage and  capability.  No Americans were harmed.  They took care to avoid civilian  casualties.  After a firefight, they killed Osama bin Laden and took  custody of his body.

 For over two decades, bin Laden has been al Qaeda’s leader and  symbol, and has continued to plot attacks against our country and our  friends and allies.  The death of bin Laden marks the most significant  achievement to date in our nation’s effort to defeat al Qaeda.

 Yet his death does not mark the end of our effort.  There’s no doubt  that al Qaeda will continue to pursue attacks against us.  We must –-  and we will — remain vigilant at home and abroad.

 As we do, we must also reaffirm that the United States is not –- and  never will be -– at war with Islam.  I’ve made clear, just as President  Bush did shortly after 9/11, that our war is not against Islam.  Bin  Laden was not a Muslim leader; he was a mass murderer of Muslims.   Indeed, al Qaeda has slaughtered scores of Muslims in many countries,  including our own.  So his demise should be welcomed by all who believe  in peace and human dignity.

 Over the years, I’ve repeatedly made clear that we would take action  within Pakistan if we knew where bin Laden was.  That is what we’ve  done.  But it’s important to note that our counterterrorism cooperation  with Pakistan helped lead us to bin Laden and the compound where he was  hiding.  Indeed, bin Laden had declared war against Pakistan as well,  and ordered attacks against the Pakistani people.

 Tonight, I called President Zardari, and my team has also spoken with  their Pakistani counterparts.  They agree that this is a good and  historic day for both of our nations.  And going forward, it is  essential that Pakistan continue to join us in the fight against al  Qaeda and its affiliates.

 The American people did not choose this fight.  It came to our  shores, and started with the senseless slaughter of our citizens.  After  nearly 10 years of service, struggle, and sacrifice, we know well the  costs of war.  
These efforts weigh on me every time I, as  Commander-in-Chief, have to sign a letter to a family that has lost a  loved one, or look into the eyes of a service member who’s been gravely  wounded.

 So Americans understand the costs of war.  Yet as a country, we will  never tolerate our security being threatened, nor stand idly by when our  people have been killed.  We will be relentless in defense of our  citizens and our friends and allies.  We will be true to the values that  make us who we are. And on nights like this one, we can say to those  families who have lost loved ones to al Qaeda’s terror:  Justice has  been done.

 Tonight, we give thanks to the countless intelligence and  counterterrorism professionals who’ve worked tirelessly to achieve this  outcome.  The American people do not see their work, nor know their  names.  But tonight, they feel the satisfaction of their work and the  result of their pursuit of justice.

 We give thanks for the men who carried out this operation, for they  exemplify the professionalism, patriotism, and unparalleled courage of  those who serve our country.  And they are part of a generation that has  borne the heaviest share of the burden since that September day.

 Finally, let me say to the families who lost loved ones on 9/11 that  we have never forgotten your loss, nor wavered in our commitment to see  that we do whatever it takes to prevent another attack on our shores.

 And tonight, let us think back to the sense of unity that prevailed  on 9/11.  I know that it has, at times, frayed.  Yet today’s achievement  is a testament to the greatness of our country and the determination of  the American people.

 The cause of securing our country is not complete.  But tonight, we  are once again reminded that America can do whatever we set our mind  to.  That is the story of our history, whether it’s the pursuit of  prosperity for our people, or the struggle for equality for all our  citizens; our commitment to stand up for our values abroad, and our  sacrifices to make the world a safer place.

 Let us remember that we can do these things not just because of  wealth or power, but because of who we are:  one nation, under God,  indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

 Thank you.  May God bless you.  And may God bless the United States of America.

----------


## HermantheGerman

The show must go on !





P.S. he laid in bed for the last weeks because of cancer...and thats how they FINALLY got him.

----------


## koman

> BreakingNews   Breaking News                                             
> 
>             US official, asked about bin Laden's body: 'We are assuring it is handled in accordance with Islamic practice and tradition.'


Thank goodness for that; we owe him that much for all the respect he has shown for the practice and traditions of others.... :Confused:

----------


## sabang

> I'm going to leave his fate in God's hands


Well, it's great that the appointment has finally been set.

----------


## rickschoppers

> Originally Posted by rickschoppers
> 
> Did he shoot himself or was he shot??
> 
> 
> Are you a thai policeman ?


They still have not claimed who fired the shot that killed Osama. Until that time, anything is possible, no?

----------


## Dick

> The show must go on !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. he laid in bed for the last weeks because of cancer...and thats how they FINALLY got him.



Of course  - no more payout for the Paki wallah filth , plus Obama is looking to reelect and the war is pulling out , so what better timing ?

----------


## StrontiumDog

_A senior administration official told reporters early Monday morning  that intelligence officials had learned from detainees that Bin Laden  used a particularly trusted courier, who was a protege of Khalid Sheikh  Mohammad, the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks. Four years ago the  officials were able to identify the courier’s real name, but not his  location._ _

Last August, the U.S. got a lead on the courier’s location–a  high-walled, $1 million compound in an affluent neighborhood on the  outskirts of Islamabad. Eight times larger than other houses in the  area, the compound had two security gates, no telephone or internet  connections and its residents burned their garbage rather than putting  it out for collection, as others in the neighborhood did, the senior  administration official said. “The physical security measures of the  compound are extraordinary,” the official said, and U.S. officials  concluded that it had been built for the purpose of hiding Bin Laden._

Read more: Osama Bin Laden Killed, Obama Hails Moment of “Justice” | Swampland

----------


## StrontiumDog

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/am...132275789.html

_According to Al Jazeeera's Rosalind Jordan in Washington, the operation had been in the making for the last 9 or 10 months. 

 "The fact that it happened inside Pakistan, there have been  suggestions that Pakistani intelligence may have been protecting them,"  she said. 

 Reporting from Pakistan, Al Jazeera's Kamal Hyder said the development had caught a lot of people by surprise .

 "He was considered by many as a hero, but not to the extent that  people would come out on the streets. The reaction so far not likely to  be strong on the streets, perhaps a protest here or there by the  religious parties,." he said.

'Symbolic victory'_ _

 Qais Azimy, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Kabul, said Afghan  officials described bin Laden's killing as a "symbolic victory", since  he was no longer directly connected to the group's field operations. 

     Mark Kimmit, a US military analyst, said bin Laden's death "was not the end of terrorism, but an end of a chapter."

 "Capturing or killing bin Laden has more iconic value. It will have  symbolic value, because it has been a number of years since Bin Laden  has exercised day to day control over operations. We still have an Al  Qaeda threat out there and that will be there for a number of years. 

 "This organisation (Al Qaeda) is more than Bin Laden, it may be  symbolised by Bin Laden, but it definitely is more than Bin Laden," he  said. 

 It is, however, a major accomplishment for Obama and his national  security team. Obama's predecessor, George Bush, had repeatedly vowed to  bring to justice the mastermind of the September 11, 2001, attacks on  New York and Washington, but never did before leaving office in early  2009.

 He had been the subject of a search since he eluded US soldiers and  Afghan militia forces in a large-scale assault on the Tora Bora  mountains in 2001. The trail quickly went cold after he disappeared and  many intelligence officials believed he had been hiding in Pakistan.

While in hiding, bin Laden had taunted the West and advocated his views in videotapes spirited from his hideaway._ _

Besides  September 11, Washington has also linked bin Laden to a string of  attacks -- including the 1998 bombings of American embassies in Kenya  and Tanzania and the 2000 bombing of the warship USS Cole in Yemen._ _

 Having the body may help convince any doubters that bin Laden is really dead._

----------


## robuzo

^^So it was totally inconspicuous. No wonder they had trouble finding him.

----------


## StrontiumDog

Updates on the Global Reaction to the Announcement of bin Laden's Death - NYTimes.com

_My colleague Salman Masood reports from Islamabad, the Pakistani capital:__ There has been no public official confirmation by Pakistani authorities  yet on the killing of Osama bin Laden but a spokesperson of the  Inter-Services Intelligence agency confirmed that Osama bin Laden is  dead but did not provide any further details and did not say where._

_"He is dead", the ISI spokesperson said Monday morning. "It was a  joint intelligence operation. Beyond that I am not able to comment right  now."_

_Express News, a local Urdu television channel, reported that around  midnight on Sunday, three helicopters attacked a house in the Bilal Town  neighborhood of Abbottabad, a city in northwestern Khyber Pakhtunkwa  province, located just 150 kilometers from the capital Islamabad.  Local  residents were reported to have said that the inhabitants of the huge  compound had been living there for the past six years and did not  interact with the neighbors._

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by Chico the Fox
> 
> 
> That's a shame. What excuses will America have for invading Arab countries to loot oil now?
> 
> 
> Don't worry they are after Ghadafi's oil now.


The US paid them US$750 billion last year for their oil....who is looting who?
..and you may not have noticed in the midst of all the noise, but Afghanistan is not
providing a lot of oil...maybe they invaded _them_ for the goats milk cheese... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## good2bhappy

I doubt whether this event will make for a safer world

----------


## HermantheGerman

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> 
> The SOB was living in a secure compound, surrounded by the Pakistan military establishment and just 60k from the capital.  Pretty impressive work by the Paki "intelligence" guys who are supposed to be on our side.... of course the Pakis have always been a reliable ally, well worth the billions we give them....
> 
> 
> yeah its kinda sick. Muslims can never be trusted. I heard it is an area were allot of retired generals live



He was living in Mansion. Meaning he was sick and tired of hiding.

----------


## sabaii sabaii

Great time to lift morale in the US right now

----------


## Strongarm

This is a good day for the free world.

----------


## thehighlander959

Maybe a good idea to wait for the facts to come out. Theres a lot of speculation on here at present. 
The ISI says its a joint operation (my ass) If anyone has been responsible for keeping him under wraps its been the ISI.

I think that there is a lot more to this operation than meets the eye, and I have never heard of US Navy Seals or any other special forces SAS, Delta Force etc. carrying out *joint operations* when conducting High Value Target acquisition for target termination. 
This will be a single team operation where each of the team knows each other and how they operate.
No *Hamiton Accies* involved in this operation I am afraid......

----------


## HermantheGerman

> I doubt whether this event will make for a safer world



The U.S. has now two dates that they have to be on a high alert 9/11 and 5/1.


(Could maybe make that three 4 July)

----------


## robuzo



----------


## Mid

_Government said the killing of Osama bin Laden in Pakistan underlined  its "concern that terrorists belonging to different organisations find  sanctuary in Pakistan," according to a statement from the home ministry  on Monday .

_Osama death proves Pakistan sanctuary for terrorists: Govt - Hindustan Times

----------


## Seekingasylum

I quite like the recent revelations about the folk who were kidnapped and taken to Gitmo a few years back. They included 14 year old children and one man in his 80s suffering from senile dementia. Apparently, the "authorities" concluded they represented no discernible danger but, nevertheless, they spent a further 2 years in unlawful captivity before being finally released.

God bless America, indeed.

Whilst I applaud the death of one barking mad heathen scumbag it's too early to celebrate whilst Messrs. Blair, Bush, Cheney and Herr Obergruppenfuhrer Rumsfeld still crawl the planet.

----------


## good2bhappy

It seems he forgot the maxim
"Put not your faith in Princes"

----------


## Thetyim

> This will be a single team operation


Maybe they meant that local forces watched the neighbourhood whilst the US forces did the business inside the compound

----------


## raycarey

> Obama chaired five national security meetings since March to discuss  intelligence on Osama bin Laden. Those meetings, the official said, were  on March 14, March 19, April 12, April 19 and April 28. Obama  authorized the attack on bin Laden on Friday, April 29, the official  said.


Obama called Bush before statment | POLITICO 44

from a purely political perspective, this is a HUGE win for obama and the effectiveness of his policies.

----------


## Norton

> This will be a single team operation


Agree. It was a Seal team under CIA command. Who and where intelligence came from is still unknown and probably never will be. There was no "cooperation" by any Pakistani government organization. No way would the CIA share intelligence or plan with anyone in Pakistan. IMO, this was a completely unilateral action on the part of the US.

----------


## thehighlander959

<LI class=type-9999>*0617:* And according to Pakistan's Express TV, American forces arrived first at the big residence on the outskirts of Abbottabad where the operation took place, and Pakistani forces came later.


<LI class=type-9999>*0614:* Pakistani TV says the government there is mulling a response to Bin Laden's death.


<LI class=type-9999>*0612:* US officials say the compound in which Bin Laden was killed appeared to have been custom-built to harbour a major fugitive.


<LI class=type-9999>*0610:* A BBC reporter in Pakistan says the Afghan Taliban have confirmed the death of Osama Bin Laden.


<LI class=type-9999>*0608:* This from the Associated Press: "Based on statements given by US detainees, intelligence officials have known for years that Bin Laden trusted one al-Qaida courier in particular and they believed he might be living with him in hiding. In November, intelligence officials found out where he was living, a huge fortified compound in an affluent suburb of Islamabad. It was surrounded by walls as high as 18 feet high, topped with barbed wire. There were two security gates and no phone or internet running into the house."


<LI class=type-3>*0604:* Richard in Ontario, Canada writes: "A great day for all. Justice finally delivered for those who have lost loves ones over the years at the orders of Osama Bin Laden. Our thoughts and prayers still with those."* Have Your Say*


<LI class=type-9999>*0603:* A member of the Taliban Haqqani group - a network of insurgents broadly loyal to the Afghan Taliban - has told a BBC correspondent that he met Osama bin Laden three months ago in Abbottabad.


<LI class=type-9999>*0601:* Here's the statement from the British government: "The news that Osama Bin Laden is dead will bring great relief to people across the world. Osama Bin Laden was responsible for the worst terrorist atrocities the world has seen - for 9/11 and for so many attacks, which have cost thousands of lives, many of them British. It is a great success that he has been found and will no longer be able to pursue his campaign of global terror. This is a time to remember all those murdered by Osama Bin Laden, and all those who lost loved ones. It is also a time too to thank all those who work round the clock to keep us safe from terrorism. Their work will continue. I congratulate President Obama and those responsible for carrying out this operation."


<LI class=type-9999>*0558:* More on the three other people killed along with Bin Laden; officials are saying that one of them was a son of the al-Qaeda leader.


<LI class=type-9999>*0556:* Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says Bin Laden's death is a "resounding triumph for democratic nations fighting terrorism" - Reuters.


<LI class=type-3>*0554:* Arif Siddiqui in Dhaka, Bangladesh writes: "A victory of peace over terror."* Have Your Say*


<LI class=type-3>*0553:* Carolyn Shawgo in Washington, US writes: "First tears and then a wave of relief. Such a sad event to celebrate. I feel as if President Obama handled this with dignity and calm clarity with no sort of boasting."* Have Your Say*


<LI class=type-9999>*0543:* Here's a *link to a full transcript* of President Obama's statement.


<LI class=type-3>*0548:* Neokin in Bangalore, India writes: "It is a significant achievement for the people of the US and people all over the world who want peace and justice. Great operation led by US intelligence and troops who have dedicated their lives particularly to this operation."* Have Your Say*


<LI class=type-2>*0546:* *CBS News White House correspondent Mark Knoller* tweets: "Official says US believes compound in Abottabad built about 5 years ago specifically for the purpose of harboring bin-Laden."


<LI class=type-9999>*0544:* The BBC's Haroon Rashid in Islamabad said that last night there were rumours that an operation was going on in an area close to Abbottabad. There were unconfirmed reports of a military helicopter crashing in the area as well. Witnesses said the whole area was cordoned off and nobody was allowed close although they did hear gunshots and firearms. But nobody had any inkling that this was an operation to get Osama bin Laden.


<LI class=type-9999>*0542:* Tim Sumner, from the group called 9/11 Families for a Safe&Strong America, lost a friend, and his brother-in-law in the 9/11 attacks. He gave his reaction to the BBC: "I'm very happy to see that our nation has scored this victory. I say it's a victory for America and for all those engaged in this war -- and it is a war. On a personal level, I woke my wife up just not long ago to tell her and this has been long coming... I would say we are exhilarated, that would be a good word to use. It is a just ending to a mass murderer."


<LI class=type-9999>*0539:* Four people including Bin Laden were killed in the operation - AFP.


<LI class=type-9999>*0538:* US official says Bin Laden's body is being handled according to Islamic practice and tradition, Reuters reports.


<LI class=type-9999>*0537:* UK Prime Minister David Cameron says Bin Laden's death "will bring great relief" around the world - Reuters.


<LI class=type-9999>*0536:* US state department warns Americans of "enhanced potential for anti-American violence" following Bin Laden's death.


<LI class=type-9999>*0534:* AP citing Pakistani official: Four helicopters launched the attack in the Bilal area of Abbottabad, about 100km north of Islamabad; women and children were taken into custody during the raid, according to the report.


<LI class=type-3>*0531:* Justin King in New York, US writes: "Good news, bad reaction. While I am very pleased to hear that Bin Laden is no longer living and I understand that many may feel that this symbolises a sort of closure to 9/11 and the war in Afghanistan, I can't help but feel a little disgusted by the cheering mob jumping around outside the White House. As the world celebrates this occasion let's not forget that even killing a killer is an ugly business and we could be recognising Bin Laden's demise in a more dignified way."* Have Your Say*


<LI class=type-2>*0530:* *CNN anchor Rosemary Church* tweets: "Ed Henry reporting thousands out the front of the WH, celebrating the news that the world is taking in: #OsamabinLaden is dead!#CNN"


<LI class=type-9999>*0524:* Former US President George W Bush has called the death of Bin Laden a "momentous achievement". He said in a statement: "The fight against terror goes on, but tonight America has sent an unmistakable message: No matter how long it takes, justice will be done."


<LI class=type-9999>*0522:* The American president stressed that the US is not at war with Islam - Bin Laden's demise should be welcomed by all who value peace and dignity, he said.


<LI class=type-9999>*0519:* Obama's verdict towards the end of his statement: "Justice has been done." He said Bin Laden's death marks most significant achievement in struggle against al-Qaeda - and paid tribute to intelligence officials - but he also said there's still more to be done.


<LI class=type-9999>*0516:* President Obama said there was a firefight, after which US forces took possession of Bin Laden's body.


<LI class=type-9999>*0514:* President Obama said Bin Laden was killed after the US launched a targeted operation at a compound in Pakistan.


<LI class=type-9999>*0500:* We're starting up live coverage shortly after US President Barack Obama announced that al-Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden has been killed in a US-led operation. Stay with us for the latest updates - reports from our correspondents on the ground, expert analysis, and your reaction from around the world. You can contact us via e-mail, text or twitter. We'll publish what we can.



Advertisement

*Live video*

*Now*

*Coverage of Osama Bin Laden's death* Live
*Key points*

----------


## HermantheGerman

> There was no "cooperation" by any Pakistani government organization.


You mean it took them five years to figure that he was living in a mansion? And they figured that out all by themselves?
Should I laugh or applaud ?

----------


## thehighlander959

Soory about the post above guys it was only supposed to show the fact that this was a US Navy Seals OPERATION and that the Pakistani Armed Forces were their for the clear -up.

----------


## raycarey

> Originally Posted by raycarey
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Butterfly
> ...


you are correct, sir.

may 1st 2003







may 1st 2011

----------


## Chairman Mao

Amazing how they've convinced people he was behind the 9/11 attacks  (virtually immediately after they happened  :33:  ) yet the FBI couldn't find any evidence to accuse him of, and could only accuse him of US Embassy bombings in Africa.  :Confused: 

FBI — USAMA BIN LADEN

All his CIA training while fighting commies really paid off though, as they couldn't find him for a decade.  :rofl:

----------


## superman

Someone isn't telling the other side what it's doing.



> Last night The Mail on Sunday was given astonishing details of how SAS units are silently closing in on Bin Laden.


Read more: SAS heroes to win VCs | Mail Online

----------


## redbaron

pretty convenient time to have killed him, given the low popularity rate of the current US government... same same GWB claiming victory... not being political, just sayin'

----------


## khmen

Quite surprised the US's prize bogeyman has been killed, must have outlived his usefulness as the figurehead of their _current_ ideological enemy...wonder who the next "bad guy" the "good guy's" will be after to justify their international interference/war crimes. 

This means nothing, the real insiduous threat to stability and peace, the conquistadors of the US, still have their military and agents throughout the world causing destruction and death whereever they go. Theyve killed more innocents than Al qaeda ever have or will. 

(Oh, and by "Al Qaeda" I mean a varied non-network/non-organisation of people who just hate the US, not an organised network.)

Ahh...dont you just love the smell of propaganda in the morning? Smells like...bullshit.

----------


## good2bhappy

*0714:* Syed Riaz Hussain in Abbottabad, writes: "Last night, at around 0100, there was heavy gunfire about 300 metres from our house, which was followed by a huge blast. There was little in terms of military activity during the day to suggest something even remotely close to what happened. The exact spot where this incident took place, is a stone's throw from the Pakistan Military Academy, Pakistan's equivalent of West Point."
Maybe OBL was training them in covert Ops?

----------


## harrybarracuda

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

I was more upset over the death of Our 'Enry.

----------


## Norton

> Last night The Mail on Sunday was given astonishing details of how SAS units are silently closing in on Bin Laden.


Closing in? Suppose one could make the case Tora Bora is close to Islamabad.

"Plans to make the award, which is given only for acts of valour in action, reflect the level of high-risk, close-combat fighting in the *Tora Bora caves in eastern Afghanistan* between the elite regiment and the Arab terrorists loyal to Bin Laden."

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## dirtydog

I reckon that the bombing of US embassies world wide will be so common this year that some won't even make the news.

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## Mid

thepeoplesvoice.org

----------


## Mid

*Pakistan media shows images of dead Osama*
May 2, 2011

*Islamabad -* Pakistani televisions Monday released pictures  of slain  al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden, showing a slightly damaged  left eye and  marks of blood on the forehead.  

  Bin Laden is clearly  recognizable in the photos, his bare head  revealing short hair. The  front teeth are also visible through lips  that are not tightly closed.   

  The chin and sides of the face are covered in thick, black   whiskers but the full length of his trademark flowing beard is not   visible.  

  Pakistan's intelligence chief confirmed the killing  of bin Laden  and one of his sons in a joint operation by US and  Pakistani forces.  

  Lieutenant General Ahmad Shuja Pasha, the  director general of  Inter-Services Intelligence, told Duniya television  that he was  killed in Abbottabad, about 60 kilometers north-east of  the capital  Islamabad.  

  Pakistan has not officially said  anything about the death of bin  Laden but the Foreign Ministry was  planning to issue a statement in  the afternoon.

monstersandcritics.com

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## harrybarracuda

> I reckon that the bombing of US embassies world wide will be so common this year that some won't even make the news.


I think the ones that will suffer will be the local boys manning the first layer of perimeter security at each one.

----------


## Mid

_Uploaded by mitulaksh on  1 May 2011        

coverage of osama death_

youtube.com

----------


## larvidchr

Our good "Nobel peace price" winner :rofl:  Obama, has been doing a hell of a job these last few days slaugthering scumbags like Gadhafis Son - Seif al-Arab Gadhafi - and now Osama Bin Laden, all in the name of "peace on earth" of cause  :Smile:

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## koman

> Originally Posted by superman
> 
> Last night The Mail on Sunday was given astonishing details of how SAS units are silently closing in on Bin Laden.
> 
> 
> Closing in? Suppose one could make the case Tora Bora is close to Islamabad.
> 
> "Plans to make the award, which is given only for acts of valour in action, reflect the level of high-risk, close-combat fighting in the *Tora Bora caves in eastern Afghanistan* between the elite regiment and the Arab terrorists loyal to Bin Laden."


The operation in Tora Bora was years ago, and we came very close to catching him.
It is not connected in any way with the current situation....other than Bin Laden being the target.

----------


## Mid

_he was killed in a dramatic CIA-led operation involving helicopters and ground troops on Sunday night.

_snip     _

"After midnight, a large number of commandos encircled the compound.  Three helicopters were hovering overhead. All of a sudden there was  firing towards the helicopters from the ground," said Nasir Khan, a  resident of the town._

_     "There was intense firing and then I saw one of the helicopters  falling down," said Khan, who had watched the dramatic scene unfold from  his rooftop._

_     Senior Pakistani security officials said the operation, carried out  at around 1:30 a.m., involved both helicopters and ground troops._

_     A Pakistani military helicopter crashed near Abbotabad on Sunday  night, killing one and wounding two, according to local media. It was  unclear if the crash was related to bin Laden's death, but witnesses  reported gunshots and heavy firing before one of two low-flying  helicopters crashed near the military academy._

_     Express 24/7 television showed an image of what it said was bin Laden shot in the head, his mouth pulled back in a grimace._

Osama killed in dramatic night-time raid not far from Islamabad - Yahoo! News

----------


## Little Chuchok

Who gets the reward?

----------


## larvidchr

> thepeoplesvoice.org


Looks like him alright, he will know by now that the hoax he has been selling to all his suicide nutter comrades  "70 Virgins" in Allahs paradise was all pure crap, dancing with the worms is more like it.

----------


## jandajoy

This is weird.....

----------


## Butterfly

I am questioning the time of all this,

another PR stunt in the middle of another ME crisis ?

----------


## aging one

from cnn, long enough after to be close to the truth.
*How U.S. forces killed Osama bin Laden*

  By  *the CNN Wire Staff*
May 2, 2011 -- Updated 0541 GMT (1341 HKT)

 
U.S. forces killed Osama bin Laden in a mansion in Pakistan.


*STORY HIGHLIGHTS*
*NEW:* Source says bin Laden was shot in the headPakistani official: Members of Pakistan's intelligence service were on site during the operationThree other men and a woman who was used as a human shield were also killed, officials saySources: Osama bin Laden resisted the assault and was killed in a firefight

*(CNN)*  -- The mission that killed one of the world's most notorious terrorist  leaders was carried out by U.S. forces with the cooperation of Pakistan,  U.S. President Barack Obama said Sunday night.
 Osama bin Laden  -- the longtime leader of al Qaeda -- was killed by U.S. forces in a  mansion about 100 kilometers, or 62 miles, north of the Pakistani  capital of Islamabad along with other family members, a senior U.S.  official told CNN.
 Members of Pakistan's intelligence service,  the ISI, were on site in Abbottabad during the operation, a senior  Pakistani intelligence official said.
 Bin Laden resisted the assault and was killed in a firefight, senior administration officials said.
 The Pakistani intelligence official said he did not know who fired the shot that actually killed the terror mastermind.
 U.S.  sources including a senior official and a congressional source familiar  with the operation said bin Laden was shot in the head.
 Three  other men were also killed in raid, as was a woman who was being used as  a human shield,  senior administration officials said.
 The U.S.  team was at the compound for about 40 minutes, the officials said. There  were no casualties on the American side, although a U.S. helicopter  crashed during the raid due to mechanical problems.  The helicopter was  then destroyed for security reasons, senior administration officials  said.
 A senior administration official told reporters that  Obama's administration did not share intelligence gathered beforehand  with any other country -- including Pakistan -- for security reasons.
 The  official said only a small group of people inside the U.S. government  knew about this operation ahead of time.  Another official said a "small  U.S. team" was involved in the operation;  but the official would not  confirm any U.S. military involvement.
 However, a senior defense official said U.S. Navy SEALs were involved.

----------


## Butterfly

again the public has a short memory, the Pentagon declared a few years ago he was dead and they had DNA to prove it

and now this,

for all we know, it could be his body double

----------


## aging one

butterfly mate, this is who you remind me of Younger Bear from Little Big Man, almost an exact duplicate in reality.  But somehow he too fit in with the rest of the tribe.  :Smile:

----------


## Dan

> At WTC with a couple hundred others! Singing and cheering! "God Bless America!"


FFS

Anyway, I'm not sure how this helps Obama's plot to impose Shaira law on the good Christians of America.

----------


## aging one

> FFS  Anyway, I'm not sure how this helps Obama's plot to impose Shaira law on the good Christians of America.


FFS, keep your dribble off of a good thread. Start your own if you want to spout this shit.

----------


## Mid

> for all we know, it could be his body double


_Numerous media outlets say the U.S. confirmed bin Laden's remains with DNA testing._

President Obama: Bin Laden is Dead, 'Justice has Been Done' - WBAY-TV Green Bay-Fox Cities-Northeast Wisconsin News

next  :mid:

----------


## Dan

> Originally Posted by Dan
> 
> FFS  Anyway, I'm not sure how this helps Obama's plot to impose Shaira law on the good Christians of America.
> 
> 
> FFS, keep your dribble off of a good thread. Start your own if you want to spout this shit.


It was a joke.

Edit: I see from your red that it was my FFS that you objected to. My apologies. I forgot that in the land of the free the only permitted response to a terrrrsts death is to  invoke a fictitous paki-hating dad in the sky.

----------


## raycarey

> Our good "Nobel peace price" winner Obama, has  been doing a hell of a job these last few days slaugthering scumbags  like Gadhafis Son - Seif al-Arab Gadhafi


we know facts aren't exactly your strong suit, but this is just embarrassing.

ever heard of NATO, lardy?

----------


## aging one

> It was a joke.


Cool and apologies from a proud yank. :Smile: 

Boy oh boy.... I spoke too fast Lick my balls, you stupid [at][at][at][at].

----------


## khmen

WTF!!!!!!!! Reports on BBC now that Osama Bin Laden ALREADY been buried at sea! 
Bin Ladin buried at sea (Breaking News)

*Bin Ladin buried at sea Breaking News* 
By KJ Mullins. 
 
There will be no grave for the followers of Osama bin Ladin to visit. Official reports say that the man called the Face of Global Terrorism by CNN has been buried at sea. 

U.S. officials used facial imagining and other techniques to identify the body of Bin Ladin. During the fire fight in which he was killed Bin Ladin is said to have fought back and was shot in the head. 
According to ABC News it is Muslim tradition for the body to be washed by Muslim men and then buried as quickly as possible. Burials are generally simple with a ground burials performed with a simple white sheet or sea burials. 
A senior administration official told Jake Tapper this about the body: "We are ensuring it is handled in accordance with Islamic practice and tradition. It's something we take seriously and therefore it's being handled in an appropriate manner.‬" 
CNN reports that a U.S. official said that Osama bin Laden has been buried at sea 


Read more: Bin Ladin buried at sea (Breaking News)

----------


## Dan

Well that certainly won't fuel any conspiracy theories, will it. T

----------


## Butterfly

but they confirmed the same DNA and death only a few years ago,

can we actually believe any of this is true ?

----------


## larvidchr

> Originally Posted by larvidchr
> 
> Our good "Nobel peace price" winner Obama, has  been doing a hell of a job these last few days slaugthering scumbags  like Gadhafis Son - Seif al-Arab Gadhafi
> 
> 
> we know facts aren't exactly your strong suit, but this is just embarrassing.
> 
> ever heard of NATO, lardy?


Yes US is (the dominant) member state correct  :mid:

----------


## TafkaB

Buried at sea! Dare I say, sounds quite unbelievable.

There will lots of questions about this.

----------


## jandajoy

> Reports on BBC


BBC ?

Ah, OK, BBC reporting AP.

----------


## good2bhappy

what else could they do?
If he was buried on land it could become a shrine

----------


## jandajoy

*"0902:* Col Richard Kemp, the former commander of British forces in Afghanistan, tells BBC News: "This is not just symbolic - this is a major setback to al-Qaeda. It shows that the US is strong and al-Qaeda is weak. It is the third major high point of the war on terror. The first was the removal of the Taliban from power. The second was the defeat of Saddam Hussein. "

Do you think these people really believe this? Martyrdom is remarkably potent.

----------


## TafkaB

I wonder if any photos of the body will be released?

Just reading according to Islamic law the body needs to be washed and buried before next prayer ideally.

So did they bury him at sea before the DNA results proved his identity?

----------


## jandajoy

*0752:* US General Jack Keane told the BBC's Today programme that it was "appropriate" that Bin Laden was killed by US forces. *"I'm glad we're bringing a body back [to the US] as to opposed to him walking back,"* he said.

----------


## TafkaB

> what else could they do?
> If he was buried on land it could be come a shrine


Well I see that's the reason that they have gave, but maybe there were other options? It all seems a convenient sweeping under the rug to me, and it will to a lot of other people too. The US govt. is hardly the most trusted in the world, and more proof that they indeed killed Bin Laden will be needed by many.

----------


## sabang

> "Nobel peace price" winner


He's finally deserved it!  :Smile: 



> now Osama Bin Laden

----------


## sunsetter

Bin Laden: Reconstruction of how terror chief was killed | Mail Online

heres how it works

from the daily mail

----------


## sunsetter

pic of osama dead

Osama bin Laden dead: 'photo of al-Qaeda leader's body' - mirror.co.uk


daily mirror  :Smile:

----------


## good2bhappy

"One of my strongest memories from 9/11 is people celebrating around the world. I remember being disgusted. Now I have just seen Americans celebrating the death of Bin Laden outside the White House, I am again disgusted. I believe this scene may even incite more hatred and terror against in America and Europe." 
interesting comment

----------


## sunsetter

great day for obama though eh, very defining moment in his presidency

----------


## robuzo

> "One of my strongest memories from 9/11 is people celebrating around the world. I remember being disgusted. Now I have just seen Americans celebrating the death of Bin Laden outside the White House, I am again disgusted. I believe this scene may even incite more hatred and terror against in America and Europe." 
> interesting comment


I don't think it is appropriate, either. Seems very immature. It isn't as if our side just won the World Cup or similar. This is serious business. Then again, in a country where someone like Donald Trump can be taken seriously as a presidential candidate, a lack of seriousness is to be expected.

Perhaps I should elaborate just a bit more. Celebrations at the end of a war, like the parties on VJ day, are understandable. The death of this criminal doesn't mark the end of anything, it is just another milestone in a complex, ongoing situation.

----------


## buriramboy

I thought Osama was supposed to be living in poverty in a cave somewhere not living the life of riley in a multi million $ mansion???

----------


## Thormaturge

> Well that certainly won't fuel any conspiracy theories, will it. T


My thoughts entirely.

----------


## BobR

> Buried at sea! Dare I say, sounds quite unbelievable.
> 
> There will lots of questions about this.


That's where they lost me.  No celebration for this ex-American tonight.

----------


## TafkaB

> pic of osama dead
> 
> Osama bin Laden dead: 'photo of al-Qaeda leader's body' - mirror.co.uk
> 
> 
> daily mirror


First thought..

His prominent nose has been replaced with the nose of an isaan bargirl.

----------


## TafkaB

Better image here.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vT-MjRdeup...turedosama.jpg

It's started..

http://photoblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news...hoto-is-a-fake

----------


## Thormaturge

> First thought..
> 
> His prominent nose has been replaced with the nose of an isaan bargirl.


My thoughts too.



 It's beginning to smell....maybe he had rhinoplasty.

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by TafkaB
> 
> 
> Buried at sea! Dare I say, sounds quite unbelievable.
> 
> There will lots of questions about this.
> 
> 
> That's where they lost me.  No celebration for this ex-American tonight.


I don't get it, either.

----------


## genghis61

after one year and three weeks without television, we were connected up with cable on Thursday; since then on the one English-language news channel, we've had:

 -  flag waving for a wedding in England
 -  flag waving for a pope/saint in the Vatican
 -  flag waving for Osama Bin Laden. Not exactly *for* him, for his death

if this continues I won't renew next month.


A man who said he was dressed as Captain America cheers across the street from the White House in Washington

----------


## Hampsha

Got a couple of emails from US. Here's the gist...

*Warden Message: Travel Alert from the Department of State*





> The U.S. Department of State alerts U.S. citizens traveling and residing
> abroad to the enhanced potential for anti-American violence given recent
> counter-terrorism activity in Pakistan. Given the uncertainty and
> volatility of the current situation, U.S. citizens in areas where recent
> events could cause anti-American violence are strongly urged to limit
> their travel outside of their homes and hotels and avoid mass gatherings
> and demonstrations. U.S. citizens should stay current with media
> coverage of local events and be aware of their surroundings at all
> times. This Travel Alert expires August 1, 2011.

----------


## yaangcome

Look I think its a good thing. But true or not the shit is going to hit the fan, Travel warnings world  wide already.

----------


## BigBaBoo

:deadhorsebig:  U.S. inteligence has suspected for years that Osama was in fact living very comfortably in Paksistan. He obviously must have had some very high level "friends" in Pakistan. The compound he was killed in was only 800 yards from the most prestigious and well known Pakistani military acadamy...the funtional equivalnt (for you Brits) of having a top-rank IRA man living that close to Sandhurst. So somebody at a very high level had to be his protector in Pakistan.
In fact, Osama never was....and certainly hasn't been for some years the "leader" of Al Queda. That organization, which is only a loose organization anyhow, never had "leader". It always was not much more tha a group of people with a loose common objective... the opposition to what they percieved as "western" and "non-Islamic" interference in the Arab world. I can't remember the translation of the name Al Queda...but I think it means something like "the Group" or "the Association". It is NOT an organization with one person in charge, it never was...but more a group of different organizations with a common purpose...which was to oppose what they felt was the "non-Islamic" influence of western values in the Islamic Arab world.
I wouldn't be surprised if the first reaction to his death won't be in Pakistan itself. I suspect his death will be very unwelcome in Pakistan and could even bring down the current Pakistani government. That's just my half-educated guess...we will have to see what unfolds in the next few days or weeks.
Don't get me wrong...I don't think of him as a hero nor do I admire him. In his own way however, he did what he believed to be right (even though his methods were most certainky wrong) and he, in his own view, probably died for what he truely believed.
But then, the so did Adolph Hitler.
 :yerman:

----------


## Mid

_It is not permissible to bury a dead person in the sea  unless people fear that his corpse will get rotten. If so, it is  permissible for them to wash his body and offer funeral prayer for the  deceased, and put up something heavy with the corpse so that it will  plunge into the seabed. If there is some water in the grave, it should  be dried up or the deceased should be enshrouded in a water-proof cloth;  however, it is preferable not to bury the deceased in such places which can be figured out by experience._ 
Read more: Burying a Dead Body in the Sea - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar

----------


## Hampsha

I doubt much is going to happen other than possibly in the Pakistan region. A decade has passed. Usually when leaders die it seems word gets out of a newly appointed one. If there is any organization to the group that info should come out soon enough. At the same time the nutters with him could exploit his death keep him alive.

He's dead and the era of his organisation is over. Let's see if anything new develops. There will always be nutters out there that's for sure because half of America's enemies live in the US right now.

----------


## Hampsha

Putting him at sea gets rid of a 'scared place' for nutters who might want to worship him. God knows the muslim world is nuts about land and history.

----------


## genghis61

> It's started.. http://photoblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news...hoto-is-a-fake


real or not?


An image circulating on the Internet and displayed on some television news programs abroad purports to show Osama bin Laden’s bloody corpse. 

No U.S. or Pakistani officials have confirmed its authenticity, and two U.S. officials have warned NBC News that the image is a hoax.

Based on an initial look into the image file, we agree, and think it’s a fake. At first glance, the pixelation around the “wound” area and the odd lack of transition between different colored cloth and flesh indicate that the image has been manipulated.

Furthermore, the facial expression and beard are very reminiscent of a 1998 image of bin Laden, the first picture shown below. Next to it, we show the original resolution of the “corpse” image as we’ve seen it (197 by 263 pixels), “flopped” 180 degrees on the horizontal axis to conform to the original 1998 image’s beard orientation. The third image is a blended image of the two, with the “corpse” image at 100 percent opacity below the original image at 43 percent opacity. 

The way the images “lock” in place at the mouth, beard and nose indicate to us that the image circulating on the Web and some foreign television outlets is nothing but a clumsy fake:

----------


## Thormaturge

> after one year and three weeks without television, we were connected up with cable on Thursday; since then on the one English-language news channel, we've had:
> 
>  -  flag waving for a wedding in England
>  -  flag waving for a pope/saint in the Vatican
>  -  flag waving for Osama Bin Laden. Not exactly *for* him, for his death
> 
> if this continues I won't renew next month.


 Hang around another few weeks and we may hear that WMD have been found in Iraq.

----------


## harrybarracuda

News went round quick, I flew out of Larnaca this morning and they had one security check open doing everything and everybody; normally it's fairly relaxed.

----------


## genghis61

Celebrations

----------


## the dogcatcher

> News went round quick, I flew out of Larnaca this morning and they had one security check open doing everything and everybody; normally it's fairly relaxed.


I,m just North of London.
They've changed all the airline routes today.
Pic on right is photoshoped to buggary.

----------


## Dan

> Celebrations


What a horrible picture. Revenge is a perfectly understandable emotion and it's something that everyone feels but public wallowing in it is not an attractive spectacle. And of course, the fact that these chumps have almost certainly thought no further than the latest TV-bullshit explanation for why they're in 3 wars at the moment doesn't really add to the appeal.

----------


## good2bhappy

623. * If a person dies on a ship and if there is no fear of the decay of the dead body and if there is no problem in retaining it for sometime on the ship, it should be kept on it and buried in the ground after reaching the land. Otherwise, after giving Ghusl, Hunut, Kafan and Namaz-e-Mayyit it should be lowered into the sea in a vessel of clay or with a weight tied to its feet. And as far as possible it should not be lowered at a point where it is eaten up immediately by the sea predators. 
seems to me that what they did was wrong

----------


## billy the kid

and now cometh the fatwa.

----------


## hillbilly

> 


Considering all of the raid complications, it is still not a bad shot...

----------


## Butterfly

> very defining moment in his presidency


hardly, I would say the lowest point actually, using cheap PR to increase his chance next year and court right wing nutters is definitely not a high point

he did accomplish something in 2 years however than GW Bush the loser couldn't in 8 years

----------


## jandajoy

This is so sad.

The repercussions will be extreme.

The insane "reality TV" syndrome will prevail.

The media will cream their jeans, make fortunes and the idiots will believe.

Royal weddings, terrorist deaths, Trump for Pres. Wars, anarchy and bloodshed.

Stop the world, people, I'm getting off.

----------


## good2bhappy

624. If it is feared that an enemy may dig up the grave and exhume the dead body and amputate its ears or nose or other limbs, it should be lowered into sea, if possible, as stated in the foregoing rule. 
This might be their get out clause

----------


## FailSafe

I'm a New Yorker- I watched the Towers go up when I was a kid- I was in Thailand when they came down- I was acquainted with two people that died in them- they were both decent guys with young families.

I don't think I'd be dancing in the streets if I were back home, but I definitely feel pretty good that Bin Laden was finally taken out.

----------


## taxexile

> Ah. Recognise the same twat nik posting on TV. You get banned/bored then? Fckwit.


 

havent posted there for a long while. good of you to remember me though.

didnt get banned, but did get very bored there.

but with basket cases like you posting here, boredom is not likely to be an issue.
your comment on the 'last known photo of bin laden" was foot in the mouth stupidity of a calibre rarely seen these days,  even on teak door.

please keep posting.

----------


## S Landreth

> Good on ya George! The killers you sent after OBL might have taken a little longer than anticipated to accomplish the mission but indeed, the mission is now complete!


 
?

----------


## Airportwo

Am I the only one that thinks this is all a crock of hsit? and agree with below statement?

Obama’s propaganda stunt arrives as the Democrats kick off their  leader’s presidential reelection bid against a number of Republicans  contenders who have been highly critical of not only his perceived  handling of the economy, but also his management of the manufactured war  on terror.

----------


## Seekingasylum

The problem with AQ is that it has no realistic aim or purpose except to blow up a few people wherever it can, whether it be in London, New York or even in Karachi where they experience terrorism on a daily basis. When pressed on their manifesto their adherents witter on about establishing some sort of islamic utopian state where sharia law will cleanse the world from its vices. In truth, its much more mundane than that and actually translates to creating a political order not chosen through democracy but a theocracy imposed by talentless men who otherwise would achieve nothing. Getting stupid misguided younger men to do their bidding in the name of Allah is all part of the indoctrination and throughout the world there seems to be no end of fodder for the process.

Killing their leader is merely a start. We now have to break the cycle and to that end we should ban the religion in the West, destroy their mosques and shoot the mullahs. Let them pray at home but if they insist on wearing their offensive clothes outside they should be denied employment or the right to travel on public transport. Eventually, we should move to a discriminatory tax schedule and welfare system where not only would it be pointless for islamists to work but they would also be excluded from any benefits in lieu. Immigration should of course be denied to any islamist. 

The camps can come later..........

----------


## Thetyim

^
Don't forget to make them wear a badge distinguishing them from others

----------


## Butterfly

The Romans have killed Jesus again,

the wrath of God will be upon us soon,

2012 ?

----------


## Seekingasylum

^^^Excellent idea. But what would be appropriate?

----------


## CaptainNemo

> The Romans have killed Jesus again,
> 
> the wrath of God will be upon us soon,
> 
> 2012 ?


He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy.




...I still doubt that Osama (the fundamentalist's tooth fairy) ever existed; and I'm amused that so many people lap up anything that "news" organisations pump out.

----------


## Noggin the Nogg

This was not justice. It was summary execution without regard for due legal process. 
At the end of WW11, at Nuremberg, the allies meticulously pursued nazi war criminals. It was the right thing to do. The Israelis sought justice against those who had fled Europe for many years, notably the Eichmann case. The capture and trial of Slobodan Milosevic is a recent example of the way proper justice should be upheld. Revenge is not the most edifying human trait.
It seems from early reports that the Special Forces operation was against a fairly lightly defended compound with a kill-only brief. What message does this send the world about American justice? Together with scenes of jubilation from US cities (reminiscent of scenes from cities in the middle east on 9/11/2001) this is likely to enflame rather than mollify. 
I am not an apologist for Bin Laden or his cause, quite the contrary. However, it is my opinion that he should have been tried and only then, if found guilty, should he be executed. 
The United States has weakened its already weak claim to hold the moral high ground.

----------


## ENT

Them before and after pics of Bin Laden/corpse above( post #183, are all bollocks, photo-shopped, even the individual hairs in his whiskers and bits of food debris ion his beard are the same from day one, 10 years ago.

What a sad joke.
Goes to prove that Seppos got no artistic ability, I suppose.

----------


## Butterfly

> He's not the messiah,


his brother, Obama, killed him

it was a battle between good and evil,

----------


## khmen

> ^
> Don't forget to make them wear a badge distinguishing them from others


I think Muslims do a pretty good job of that all by themselves already. Y'know, the beards, the robes, the veils, the general air of embitterment and resentment...Hey, they just dare to be different! :Smile: 

Anyway,_ if_ it is true that OSB is brown bread there sure are going to be some miserable Muslims today. 
I mean, even more miserable than usual!

----------


## taxexile

> Together with scenes of jubilation from US cities (reminiscent of scenes from cities in the middle east on 9/11/2001) this is likely to enflame rather than mollify. 
> I am not an apologist for Bin Laden or his cause, quite the contrary. However, it is my opinion that should have been tried and only then, if found guilty, should he be executed.




jubilation at the death of the man responsible for the murder of 3000 civilians in new york is not to be equated with the hysterical jubilation of muslims on hearing of those murders.

----------


## ENT

Obm's just looking for election kudos.
Then dumping the body in the drink, just like 9/11 Bush's system of getting rid opf the evidence by dumping the forensics.

----------


## Noggin the Nogg

> Together with scenes of jubilation from US cities (reminiscent of scenes from cities in the middle east on 9/11/2001) this is likely to enflame rather than mollify. 
> I am not an apologist for Bin Laden or his cause, quite the contrary. However, it is my opinion that should have been tried and only then, if found guilty, should he be executed. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jubilation at the death of the man responsible for the murder of 3000 civilians in new york is not to be equated with the hysterical jubilation of muslims on hearing of those murders.


Party on Dude

----------


## Marmite the Dog

> jubilation at the death of the man responsible for the murder of 3000 civilians in new york is not to be equated with the hysterical jubilation of muslims on hearing of those murders.


What about the deaths of Bush & Blair. I'm sure they're responsible for a lot more than 3,000.

----------


## Butterfly

oh wait, this got to be a joke




> Obama Says Sept. 11 Attacks Avenged; Body Buried at Sea


they dumped the body into the sea ? what kind of BS is that ? it's clear they didn't kill him and this is a big PR op

can't wait for the next OBL tape to come up online, would be quite comical. Like I said, Jesus will raise from the dead in 3 days  :Razz:

----------


## FarangRed

The US Citizens funded the IRA for over 30 years, does this make them any better than the current terrorist funders,

----------


## Butterfly

the IRA was technically freedom fighters, weren't they ?

----------


## Cujo

All this dancing in the streets and flag waving celebration is fucking pathetic.
Then I heard the stirring nationalistic speech by Obama, appealing to national pride and militarism and revenge and I realized we are on the cusp of a new world.
This is not the end of anything or any kind of victory.
 I would suggest Americans hunker down for the long haul and inevitable decline into irrelevance.
The drain on resources the backlash will demand, combined with the fact that America doesn't actually create any wealth these days ensures the end. 
Very simple people your average Americans.

----------


## genghis61

*I welcome bin Laden's death: Gillard*
May 2, 2011 

Prime Minister Julia Gillard has welcomed the death of Al Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden.

In an echo of the US President's comments, Prime Minister Gillard said that "justice has been done."
"I welcome the death of Osama Bin Laden. I welcome this news" she said.
The Prime Minister also confirmed the government is updating travel advisories, warning Australians abroad to "exercise enhanced vigilance in terms of their personal security."

and (from AFP)

A fireman in uniform climbed onto a traffic sign to brandish a giant Stars and Stripes flag. The crowd started singing _Born In The USA*_ - the anthem of American rocker Bruce Springsteen.

******

*I'm guessing they only know the four title words of that song

----------


## rickschoppers

> "One of my strongest memories from 9/11 is people celebrating around the world. I remember being disgusted. Now I have just seen Americans celebrating the death of Bin Laden outside the White House, I am again disgusted. I believe this scene may even incite more hatred and terror against in America and Europe." 
> interesting comment


Get over yourself. The celebration comes from over 3,000 lives being lost on 9/11. What would other countries do in the same situation, nothing?

----------


## tamsin

> *Bush calls bin laden death momentous achievement | Reuters
> *
> *Bush calls bin laden death "momentous achievement"*
> 
>                       WASHINGTON |          Mon May 2, 2011 12:00am EDT         
> 
>   (Reuters) - Former President George W.  Bush, who was in office at the time of the September 11 attacks and  famously said he wanted Osama bin Laden dead or alive, said on Sunday  the death of the al Qaeda leader was a "momentous achievement."
> 
>   "The fight against terror goes  on, but tonight America has sent an unmistakable message: *No matter how  long it takes, justice will be done," Bush said in a statement.*


An' I hope he's raiiight ... an' the prick gets his. But from what i've been reading so far (not internet forums only ... ) that might just take a wile.

Same 9/11 and Kennedy, and 'non moon landing, and ...'

----------


## FarangRed

i do not believe he is dead, just because the reports say he got killed  and the morning after his body is buried at sea, how convenient that is, shouldn't his family be given the right to give him a funeral, all  smells a bit wrong to me, why not any pictures like they did with  saddam, all a big hoax

----------


## tamsin

> Originally Posted by good2bhappy
> 
> 
> "One of my strongest memories from 9/11 is people celebrating around the world. I remember being disgusted. Now I have just seen Americans celebrating the death of Bin Laden outside the White House, I am again disgusted. I believe this scene may even incite more hatred and terror against in America and Europe." 
> interesting comment
> 
> 
> Get over yourself. *The celebration comes from over 3,000 lives being lost on 9/11*. What would other countries do in the same situation, nothing?


Perpetrated by the US Government. Research boy, research ...

----------


## tamsin

> i do not believe he is dead, just because the reports say he got killed  and the morning after his body is buried at sea, how convenient that is, shouldn't his family be given the right to give him a funeral, all  smells a bit wrong to me, why not any pictures like they did with  saddam, all a big hoax


Well, your getting there. HE DIED YEARS AGO. Conveniently for the US Government lying propaganda machine. F.A.C.T.

----------


## Butterfly

of course it's a joke, it's like the fake passport at the bottom of the WTC

the bigger the lie, the more believable

it's nice to see Obama becoming a total sell out, he is losing the Democrats, so now he is switching to the right wing crowd

----------


## tamsin

> *I welcome bin Laden's death: Gillard*
> May 2, 2011 
> 
> Prime Minister Julia Gillard has welcomed the death of Al Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden.
> 
> In an echo of the US President's comments, Prime Minister Gillard said that "justice has been done."
> "I welcome the death of Osama Bin Laden. I welcome this news" she said.
> The Prime Minister also confirmed the government is updating travel advisories, warning Australians abroad to "exercise enhanced vigilance in terms of their personal security."
> 
> ...


and they call this country 'lalaland ... :Sorry1:

----------


## Phoenix

> the IRA was technically freedom fighters, weren't they ?


Killing innocent people having a drink in the pub does not a freedom fighter make.

As for Bin Liner.....good riddence to a misguided bastard.

----------


## rickschoppers

> of course it's a joke, it's like the fake passport at the bottom of the WTC
> 
> the bigger the lie, the more believable
> 
> it's nice to see Obama becoming a total sell out, he is losing the Democrats, so now he is switching to the right wing crowd


Amazing all the posters prefer to discard the possibility that Osama bin Laden was killed in this operation. Let's back up and wait and see what delvelopes over the next several months before bashing Obama and playing the conspiracy card.

----------


## rickschoppers

> Originally Posted by rickschoppers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by good2bhappy
> ...


And what country do you come from?

----------


## Butterfly

> Amazing all the posters prefer to discard the possibility that Osama bin Laden was killed in this operation


do we have evidence that he was killed ? oh wait, Pakistan security services and the US government say he was

very credible  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

was he hiding with Saddam WoMD ?

----------


## SteveCM

A couple of thoughts to consider.....

Some of you will recall some fuss over a photo uploaded to the internet last year. It purported to show a large crowd of multi-colour/no-colour (I forget which - doesn't matter) demonstrators gathered outside the 11th Infantry base in Bangkok to show support. Even moderately close examination by a non-expert quickly revealed that it was actually a not-badly montaged Photoshop job with sections of the foreground crowd repeated several times across the width and depth of the pic - thus making the crowd look very big. Here's the point: it was _designed_ to be spotted as a fake. That fake called into question genuine pictures that appeared in the media - pictures that showed about the same size of crowd as the fake did. So much so that The Nation ran a front page splash swearing blind that their pics were un-doctored and were published as taken. For the uploader of the doctored pic - disinformation job done..... the detectable fake made people question the real McCoy.

Second point. Does anyone seriously think Obama would commit certain political suicide by addressing the nation with this explicit announcement if there were even 0.01% doubt? I know that history is full of cock-ups (probably more so than conspiracies), but to believe one like this is really stretching things.

Edit to add:

A similar game was played with sightseeing-type pics of Thaksin in various very recognisable places a year or two back - I think it may have been when there was talk of him being at least seriously ill if not near death/actually dead. Some of the pics published were detectably fake - and clear evidence of how they'd been faked was presented. _Whose_ fakes they were we don't know - at least I don't. Some looked convincing/plausible enough - but because of the detectable fakes, _all_ the pics were then regarded as at least questionable and probably also fake (including one of Thaksin with Mandela.....even though Mandela's office confirmed - when someone bothered to ask - that yes, they _had_ met at the time claimed for the photo).

I'm sure there's some smart technical term for this kind of tactic, but double-bluff or "fake fake" comes close enough.

----------


## tamsin

> oh wait, this got to be a joke
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				Obama Says Sept. 11 Attacks Avenged; Body Buried at Sea
> 			
> ...


Their conviction that the world (ok - and this is only that which I have garnered from multifarious websites/newapapers - their own populace, oh, and bigoted idiots on 'expat forums') are idiots,  takes my breath away.

This is a guy they'd been a-huntin' down since they bombed THEMSELVES (whatever you may delude yourselves with otherwise) ... and THEY BURIED HIM AT SEA?!

C'MONNNNN!!!! LOL!

----------


## rickschoppers

> Originally Posted by rickschoppers
> 
> Amazing all the posters prefer to discard the possibility that Osama bin Laden was killed in this operation
> 
> 
> do we have evidence that he was killed ? oh wait, Pakistan security services and the US government say he was
> 
> very credible 
> 
> was he hiding with Saddam WoMD ?


Do you have any proof he wasn't killed other than your weak arguments?

----------


## OhOh

> the IRA was technically freedom fighters, weren't they ?


Protecting civilians is what the Irish say.

----------


## OhOh

We do not have body, we do not have anyone who knew him admitting to a body, we have a statement that a body has been buried "at sea". We have reports of a lightly guarded mansion attacked by "forces. A helicopter was brought down. A report that a body, with a head wound, was the wanted person. 

The reasoning for the sea burial is that a shrine would not be created. Are the "authorities" going to shoot all the "believers" who go to the site of his mansion?

Why was he not captured and put on trial. Was there insufficient evidence?

----------


## tamsin

> i do not believe he is dead, just because the reports say he got killed  and the morning after his body is buried at sea, how convenient that is, *shouldn't his family be given the right to give him a funeral*, all  smells a bit wrong to me, why not any pictures like they did with  saddam, all a big hoax


Is this the same Bin Laden family the Bush 'Administration' had flown out of the US IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE FALSE FLAG THAT WAS 9/11?

----------


## harrybarracuda

Let's assume the story is true for a minute.

There's no way they would want to take him alive, as they'd look a right bunch of cunts having blamed him for 9/11 and not being able to produce any evidence other than him talking about it on tape after the fact using the generic "we".

So top him, dump the body in the drink, and just like Hitler's remains, don't give the crazies somewhere to worship.

The only shame for me is that he was dead when they did it.

----------


## taxexile

*The death of Osama bin Laden is American rough justice, Wild West-style* 


By Tim Stanley World Last updated: May 2nd, 2011
66 Comments Comment on this article 

 Osama's death has the feel of a peculiarly American-style of justice.



Finally, America has her revenge. As crowds gather outside the White House to celebrate, even the anti-war Huffington Post finds oddly political cheer in the news that Osama is dead, while USA Todayleads with “Bin Laden Death Could Boost Markets”. 

Obama has prevailed; the patient, grisly War on Terror seems justified. 

And all of this has the feeling of a peculiarly American kind of justice, the kind that no other country in the world would probably either execute, or enjoy, quite so well.

America is a nation of laws, but beneath all that fine sentiment about procedure there is a stronger hunger for natural justice.

One is put in mind of the great, 19th-century historian Hubert Howe Bancroft, whose work on the Wild West discovered and defended an American tradition of personal, violent justice. 

Lynch law and vendettas, he wrote, were the informal exercise of a people’s will to obtain a verdict that the state was currently powerless to achieve. 
Europeans had been emasculated by their reliance upon formal law and bureaucracy. 
It was in the American wilderness that the individual was once again freed to pursue their own kind of rough justice. 
The assassination of Osama is as American as the shootout that killed Billy the Kid. It is a personal Wild West drama writ-large on the global stage.

In the past decade, some Americans have talked about “putting Osama on trial”. But those that did inevitably sounded slightly less desirous of justice than those who talked of personally putting a bullet between his eyes. 

For Osama must not just be caught, the public had decided, but be hunted down and killed. Even John Kerry, the figurehead for doubt and indecision in 2004, promised that much.

But this kind of raw justice has been hard to achieve. Ever since America’s war on Islamism began (and it’s been going in some form or other since the late 1970s), she has been defeated by her size. 
The USA is a big, lumbering whale; al-Qaeda is a small, persistent piranha, nibbling at her side. Actions like the bombing of Tripoli of 1986 or the strikes on Sudan in 1998 killed few, missed their actual targets and angered the Arab world. They had cathartic value, but made little strategic sense. Al-Qaeda escaped and prospered, too small and flexible to be caught by America’s gigantic military machine.

But today, justice has finally been had. The outlaw swings from the yardarm, the townspeople rejoice, the sheriff may get re-elected after all. And in this moment, all the suffering of the past ten years seem justified. The beast is dead. All the horrors of Hell await him.
daily telegraph


the world needs america, it needs a dirty harry to take on these rogue states, rogue operators and assorted scumbags that nobody else has got the balls to confront, it needs someone who is not afraid to play as dirty as its opponents, to operate outside the law on occasions in order to get the job done.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> 
> of course it's a joke, it's like the fake passport at the bottom of the WTC
> 
> the bigger the lie, the more believable
> 
> it's nice to see Obama becoming a total sell out, he is losing the Democrats, so now he is switching to the right wing crowd
> 
> ...


Why should we wait several months? Are you expecting his body to pop back up to the surface or get caught in a fishing net?

This has more classic psyop-spin bullshit written all over it. Body burried at sea.. WTF? But you may be right about waiting  -- for a few days -- as more will certainly be revealed, maybe even some more video and a photograph. I'm willing to wait for that.

----------


## taxexile

if he wasnt killed, dont you think he would have, or will in the next few hours produce and release one of his videos to show how alive he is.

hes as dead as dead can be, and feeding the fishes somewhere right now.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> if he wasnt killed, dont you think he would have, or will in the next few hours produce and release one of his videos to show how alive he is.
> 
> hes as dead as dead can be, and feeding the fishes somewhere right now.


The point is that maybe he's been feeding the fishies for quite some time already.

----------


## Gerbil

Simple really:

1: Killed and body destroyed in massive airstrike, etc.
    a) No one believes it.
    or
    b) Death site / 'burial place' becomes a shrine (especially in Pakistan)
2: Captured and brought to US
    a) executed = martyr.
    b) imprisoned = focus of protests, etc.
3. Killed and body delivered 'home' = martyr/shrine scenario again.
4. Killed, photographed & dumped at sea = no shrine, just conspiracy nutjobs to (not) worry about.
5. Not killed. He'll have to pop up live on CNN or Al Jazherra to disprove it.


However, the Pakis have some fucking questions to answer.........

----------


## DrAndy

> What about the deaths of Bush & Blair


they only died a political death, they are really still alive

----------


## SteveCM

There's one "conspiracy" type version (touched on by someone earlier) that I _could_ accept - which is that OBL was already dead for some period before. Doesn't matter how long - anytime since the last confirmable sighting alive will do. US intelligence finally confirms the fact he's dead - but it's not too sexy because it was from natural causes (say kidney failure).

Knowing he's not going to pop up in another video holding that day's newspaper, what better than to stage a movie-style special op and "take out" the already long-dead OBL? Big headlines:  check. No problem about no body - buried at sea to avoid "shrine" scenario: check.

Works for me..... until the carefully prepared evidence is produced to demonstrate that, yes, it _did_ go as now advertised - just as the South Korean warship sinking investigation pointed convincingly to a North Korean torpedo impact.

Of course, there will always be someone somewhere who will _still_ call it a set-up..... As James Cameron said after "Avatar" - "if you can imagine it, we can make it". Speaking of movies, welcome to the world of "Total Recall"..... it's all as real as you think it is.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

^
The story already has holes in it. The burriel at sea is the most obvious. But also the story about the "high' walls" etc. TV footage shows the walls are just average height for Asian houses and compounds of even just slightly better than average worth. The helicopter crash is still developing but is being overshaddowed by the bigger story about OBL's death. Also a bit weird.

Anyway, I'll wait for the stills and video that must have been shot.

----------


## Thetyim

^
Also if OBL had died of natural causes wouldn't there be a shrine to him somewhere already

----------


## taxexile

> The point is that maybe he's been feeding the fishies for quite some time already.


yes, its possible, but for me its very doubtful.

----------


## StrontiumDog

REUTERSFLASH   ReutersBreakingNews                                             

            Initial DNA results on bin Laden show 'very confident match' - U.S. official

----------


## Dick

Virginia Beach-based SEALs were tasked to kill bin Laden | HamptonRoads.com | PilotOnline.com

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

It seems ludicrous that the US would throw the hottest piece of forensic evidence they've ever had into the sea merely to satisfy Muslim burial rites.

----------


## scrapmetalband

He's dead.Moved him through here.Where to,don't know.

----------


## TafkaB

> It seems ludicrous that the US would throw the hottest piece of forensic evidence they've ever had into the sea merely to satisfy Muslim burial rites.


And that they seemed to have only taken 1 photo of him on 1 camera before the burial.

We'll see how many more photos turn up in the next few days.

----------


## OhOh

The markets have decided.

The initial surge of the FDI - 73.000 to 73.026

Followed by drop - 73.026 to 72.770 

-0.3% drop

Gold

US$1542.85 to US$1573 up 2% In one day

Silver

US$43.6 to US$47 up 7% in one day

The US is still fucked

----------


## blue

So how do the Muzzies rationalize that Allah let ,Osama Bin Lard Arse be killed by the infidels ?

----------


## CaptainNemo

Seems a bit like a hollow victory for the Yanks... so they shot up an old fart with a beard and a rag on his head about 10 years too late, there's plenty more about, and the war carries on... no Nagasaki moment for the good ol' boys... no happy ending.

----------


## amazon777

Considering how much the american poster-boys love to have their picture taken with murdered civilians or naked prisoners on dog leashes, I would get very, very suspicious, should we really not get to see more pics...

----------


## SteveCM

> It seems ludicrous that the US would throw the hottest piece of forensic evidence they've ever had into the sea merely to satisfy Muslim burial rites.


If they didn't, they'd be facing a tidal wave of criticism and backlash from even the majority non-jihadist Muslims.

----------


## MakingALife

While some lack of details, and questions about a lack of protocol in handling the body of this fugitive, are warranted.  I prefer to give the benefit of belief to president Obama, for having been satisfied that this killing has been confirmed.    Its a pretty big agenda item to fake.  

Burial at sea serves many purposes. I have done (2) burial at seas.  They are very simple affairs, one was a  weighted coffin, the other was scattering of ashes.  Disposing of OBL's  body in such a manor would be a good decision to minimized any memorials from taking place within the islamic world.  

In time More facts will unfold.  More evidence will be released.  There will likely be some real images related to this fire fight and OBL's death.   

If more details and images are not released and confirmed over time...  It will cast a shadow on the events.  Reuters releasing reports about a DNA match are some good evidence to confirm this OBL death.  I prefer to wait for more details, than attempt to churn a lot of energy into taking an immediately different posture and dispute that the death of OBL actually took place. 

This is a closure point for many who lost friends and family during the 9/11 attack, and with other sponsored terror incidents.  They deserve to believe that justice has been served, while it can never replace their loss - It's a validation that their loss was not left un punished or in vain.   Those are reason enough for me to accept this news as truth, and let the details that follow reinforce and confirm.

This item also allows some redrawing of US foreign policy positions on different fronts, against the war on terror.   These future changes are also going to be welcome to many in the public sector as well. 

Clearly the US Goverment is smart enough to recognize that the world will demand collaborated evidence to support this assertion.

----------


## SteveCM

> The markets have decided.
> 
> The initial surge of the FDI - 73.000 to 73.026
> 
> Followed by drop - 73.026 to 72.770 
> 
> -0.3% drop
> 
> Gold
> ...


From Bloomberg:

*Stocks Gain on Bin Laden*

*Stocks Gain on Bin Ladens Death, Silver Futures Sink

*<see article for much more detail>



From The Economist:*

Osama bin Laden: Markets react | The Economist

*     May 2nd 2011, 14:22 by R.A. | WASHINGTON 

           TODAY'S top (and more most intents and purposes only) news story is the death of Osama bin Laden. Markets are up today, inevitably, in the financial headlines,  on news of the terrorists death. That seems a bit of a stretch. One  can't begin to anticipate the impact of this development on the Arab  spring or on the stability of Pakistan's government, let alone the  effect that might have on economic activity down the road.

But one impact of the killing is fairly clear: President Obama's reelection has become more likely. Perhaps not _much_ more likely, but still, meaningfully more likely. Intrade contracts on Mr Obama's reelection chances spiked on the news.  If you're looking for a connection between this event and market moves  of any sort, the most obvious route is via the change in outlook for the  Obama presidency.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*http://www.poynter.org/latest-news/t...ptured-killed/
*
*Newspaper front pages capture elation, relief that Osama bin Laden was captured, killed*

        by Julie Moos *Published*           May 2, 2011           6:03 am                                         *Updated*             May 2, 2011             12:00 pm                          

                   In the 10th year since the September 11 attacks  planned by Osama bin Laden, the terrorist leader has been captured and  killed by American forces. The word first spread on Twitter, then on network and cable news.

 This morning, the news dominates most front pages, which would have  been redesigned starting around 11 p.m. eastern time after bin Laden’s  death was confirmed. Many of the front pages use the same photo of bin  Laden, but treat it differently with the use of color, bold headlines,  type size and placement.

 Below are about 20 of today’s front pages, with thanks to  [at]ronterrell, who shared links to many on Twitter, and to the Newseum. For perspective, here is a gallery of front pages from September 11, 2001 and another on the first anniversary of the attacks.

----------


## StrontiumDog

mpoppel   Michael van Poppel                                             

            Statement on al-Qaeda-affiliated website appears to call for a "battle of Manhattan." "Destroy. Destroy. Destroy."

----------


## Gerbil

> *http://www.poynter.org/latest-news/t...ptured-killed/
> *
> *Newspaper front pages capture elation, relief that Osama bin Laden was captured, killed*
> 
>         by Julie Moos *Published*           May 2, 2011           6:03 am                                         *Updated*             May 2, 2011             12:00 pm                          
> 
>                    In the 10th year since the September 11 attacks  planned by Osama bin Laden, the terrorist leader has been captured and  killed by American forces. The word first spread on Twitter, then on network and cable news.
> 
>  This morning, the news dominates most front pages, which would have  been redesigned starting around 11 p.m. eastern time after bin Ladens  death was confirmed. Many of the front pages use the same photo of bin  Laden, but treat it differently with the use of color, bold headlines,  type size and placement.
> ...



So.... Is he dead then?  :bunny3:

----------


## Dick

wonder if he is really dead , where is the proof ?

----------


## StrontiumDog

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...y.html#photo=7


                   The compound, within which  al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden was killed, is seen in flames after it  was attacked in Abbottabad in this still image taken from video footage  from a mobile phone.
 Reuters

 
                   This video frame grab obtained from ABC News shows a gaping hole in the wall of the mansion where Osama bin Laden was killed.
 ABC/Reuters


Pakistan army soldiers seen near the house where it is believed al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden lived in Abbottabad, Pakistan.
 Anjum Naveed/AP


Pakistan army soldiers seen near the house where it is believed al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden lived in Abbottabad, Pakistan.
 					 						Anjum Naveed 						/ 						AP


A military helicopter crashed near the hideout of  al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden after a ground operation by U.S. Special  Forces in Abbottabad.
 					 						 						 						AFP/Getty Images

----------


## Dick

All bullshit propaganda

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Failure to discover bin Laden&rsquo;s refuge stirs suspicion over Pakistan&rsquo;s role - The Washington Post
*
*Pakistan’s critics ask how bin Laden’s refuge went unnoticed*
*
By Karin Brulliard and Debbi Wilgoren,          
Updated: Monday, May 2, 11:15 PM    * 

 ISLAMABAD —Osama bin Laden’s slaying by U.S. forces in an easily  accessible Pakistani city ended years of speculation that he was hiding  in remote tribal areas and raised new questions about how his presence  could have gone undetected by Pakistan’s powerful military.

U.S. forces for months had watched the luxury compound in Abbottabad,  a city 65 miles from the capital that is home to two Pakistani army  regiments. Early Monday morning (Sunday afternoon in Washington), troops  stormed the compound via helicopter. 

 Video
 
_Four helicopters swooped in early Monday and  killed Osama bin Laden in a fiery American raid on his fortress-like  compound in a Pakistani town that is home to three army regiments. (May  2)_

 Video
 
_U.S. soldiers and civilians alike are  celebrating the U.S. military mission that killed Osama bin Laden in  Pakistan. Several soldiers from Joint Base Lewis McChord in Washington  state stood on an overpass and waved flags at passing motorists. (May 2)_

Bin Laden was shot dead inside a sprawling and heavily fortified  mansion within walking distance from a premiere military academy. He  joins a list of high-value terror suspects captured or killed in  populous mainland Pakistan, far from the wild borderlands where U.S.  intelligence officials had long believed bin Laden was sequestered.

The  Pakistani government’s failure to discover bin Laden’s whereabouts  quickly intensified suspicions in Washington and elsewhere that  Islamabad is either uncommitted to the U.S.-backed fight against  Islamist militancy or is playing a dangerous game by sheltering  terrorists even as it pledges to fight militant groups. Pakistan for  years had insisted that bin Laden was not on Pakistani soil.

“How  could [bin Laden] be in such a compound without being noticed?” Sen.  Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) said on Fox News Monday morning. A Senate  hearing on U.S.-Pakistan relations is scheduled for this week.

In  India, Home Minister Palaniappan Chidambaram noted “with grave concerns”  that “terrorists belonging to different organizations find sanctuary in  Pakistan.” He said India still believes the people behind the Mumbai  terror attacks in his country are being sheltered in Pakistan.

“It  is a bit embarrassing, that even if he was hiding there, [the Pakistani  army] would not know,” said Rahimullah Yusufzai, a Pakistani journalist  who is an expert on militancy in the country’s northwest. “It means  your intelligence is not good.”

Hussein Haqqani, Pakistan’s  ambassador to the United States, said his government “had no knowledge”  that the long-hunted bin Laden was, essentially, living in their midst.   

“If the Pakistani government had known that Osama bin Laden was  there, we would have got him....We are very glad that our American  partners did,” Haqqani said on CNN. “We did not know, we had no  knowledge. And if we had knowledge, we would have acted on it long ago.”

Haqqani also noted that Pakistan is a large country that includes many people  sympathetic to bin Laden and his cause.

President  Asif Ali Zardari learned of bin Laden’s death in a phone call from  President Obama, a foreign ministry statement said. The statement said  the raid was carried out “in accordance with declared U.S. policy that  Osama bin Laden will be eliminated in a direct action by the U.S.  forces, wherever found in the world.” 

The statement pointedly did not cite any Pakistani involvement in the operation, even though Obama, in an announcement from the White House,  mentioned Pakistani assistance.  The omission could reflect concern  within the government here about a possible backlash from Islamist  insurgents or Pakistan’s strongly anti-American public. 

Depending on whether Pakistan was helpful, the success of the  mission could ease growing tension between U.S. and Pakistani military  and intelligence officials, who have sparred recently over America’s  presence in Pakistan, CIA drone strikes, Pakistani reluctance to strike  terror hubs and U.S. assertions that Pakistani intelligence operatives  protect or assist insurgents.

Senior U.S. officials said no other government was informed of the raid ahead of time — including Pakistan’s.

Although one Pakistani intelligence official at first called the raid  a joint mission that “primarily” involved Pakistan’s top spy agency, he  later corrected himself to say the operation was “based on intelligence  input from us,” but Pakistan did not participate. 

The official  said the discovery that Bin Laden was living very close to Pakistani  military installations was embarrassing “to an extent, yes.”

“Had we known,” the official said, “we would have taken him out.” 

On  Monday, the Pakistani army cordoned off the neighborhood surrounding  the house where bin Laden was killed. The newly developed area is within  a military-residential zone where many officers live. But most houses  in the immediate vicinity were occupied by civilians, residents gathered  at the scene said.

Even by the standards of the relatively posh  neighborhood, the three-story house where bin Laden was killed stood  out, senior U.S. officials said. The structure was roughly eight times  larger than those nearby, and was surrounded by 12- to 18-foot walls  topped with barbed wire. Its occupants burned their trash, unlike their  neighbors. 

Though the six-year-old house was valued at $1  million, it had no connected phone or Internet service, the official  said — apparently an attempt to avoid surveillance. But photos of the  property appeared to show a satellite dish — a discrepancy that was not immediately explained.

A  U.S. official said the Obama administration was “very concerned” that  bin Laden was located in such a well-populated part of Pakistan. “This  is something that we’re going to continue to work with the Pakistani  government on,” the official said. 

Abbottabad, which is also  known for its high-quality schools and medical facilities, has become a  melting pot of sorts following Pakistani military operations in the  tribal areas and the nearby Swat Valley, said Gohar Ayub, a former  Pakistani foreign minister who is from the city. Refugees from those  conflicts, as well as from Afghanistan, have made it a city where few  people know their neighbors, he said.

“That’s one reason why he possibly went there,” Ayub said of bin Laden.

Gen.  Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, Pakistan’s military chief, visited the military  academy in Abbottabad just over a week ago and, in a speech, said his  troops had “broken the backs” of militants. His comment followed a White  House report that criticized the Pakistani military for lacking a clear  strategy to defeat insurgents. 

Pakistan’s cooperation with the  U.S. war on terror is extremely unpopular among the public, and its  powerful army has long been sensitive about U.S. military presence  inside its borders. While it has allowed U.S. Special Forces to offer  training, it publicly denies that it permits U.S. ground operations or  CIA drone strikes, calling both a violation of national sovereignty.

Following  the arrest in January of a CIA contractor who fatally shot two  Pakistanis, bilateral military and intelligence relations dropped to  what some officials in both countries called an all-time low. Pakistan  recently demanded that the United States scale back its military  presence and the number of drone strikes, and a Pakistani intelligence  official said not long ago that joint intelligence operations had been  halted.

On Monday, that official said the bin Laden killing symbolized that “sanity had prevailed and we continue to work together.”

Earlier  this year, Pakistani officials said they arrested Umar Patek, an  Indonesian militant with ties to al-Qaeda. Last year, a joint CIA-ISI  operation netted Abdul Ghani Baradar, a senior Afghan Taliban leader.   In 2002, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, an architect of the Sept. 11, 2001,  terror attacks, was arrested in Rawalpindi. Haqqani cited these  operations as proof that Pakistan is serious about fighting terror.

Yusufzai,  the journalist, said it was unlikely Pakistan had not assisted with or  approved of the bin Laden operation in some way. “Americans would be  hard-pressed and face difficulties operating in a place like Abbottabad  without the army’s help,” he said.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*NationalJournal.com - The Secret Team That Killed bin Laden - Monday, May 2, 2011
*
*The Secret Team That Killed bin Laden            * 

                                               By  Marc Ambinder
*             May  2, 2011 |  9:39 a.m.                                                                  
Updated: May  2, 2011 | 10:53 a.m.                                                * 

                                                                                  From Ghazi Air Base in Pakistan, the modified MH-60 helicopters made their way to the garrison suburb of Abbottabad, about 30 miles from the center of Islamabad.  Aboard were Navy SEALs, flown across the border from Afghanistan, along with tactical signals, intelligence collectors, and navigators using highly classified hyperspectral imagers.

 After bursts of fire over 40 minutes, 22 people were killed or captured.  One of the dead was Osama  bin Laden, done in by a double tap -- boom, boom -- to the left side of  his face.  His body was aboard the choppers that made the trip back.  One had experienced mechanical failure and was destroyed by U.S. forces, military and White House officials tell _National_ _Journal_.

 Were it not for this high-value target, it might have  been a routine mission for the specially trained and highly mythologized  SEAL Team Six, officially called the Naval Special Warfare Development Group, but known even to the locals at their home base Dam Neck in Virginia as just DevGru.

 This HVT was special, and the raids required practice, so they replicated the one-acre compound. Trial runs were held in early April.

 DevGru belongs to the Joint Special Operations Command, an extraordinary and unusual collection of classified standing task forces and special-missions units. They report to the president and operate worldwide based on the legal (or extra-legal) premises of classified presidential directives. Though the general public knows about the special SEALs  and their brothers in Delta Force, most JSOC missions never leak. We  only hear about JSOC when something goes bad (a British aid worker is  accidentally killed) or when something really big happens (a merchant  marine captain is rescued at sea), and even then, the military remains  especially sensitive about their existence.   Several dozen JSOC operatives have died in Pakistan over the past several years. Their names are released by the Defense Department in the usual manner, but with a cover story -- generally, they were killed in training accidents in eastern Afghanistan.  That’s the code.

 How did the helos  elude the Pakistani air defense network?  Did they spoof transponder  codes? Were they painted and tricked out with Pakistan Air Force  equipment? If so -- and we may never know -- two other JSOC units, the Technical  Application Programs Office and the Aviation Technology Evaluation  Group, were responsible.  These truly are the silent squirrels -- never  getting public credit and not caring one whit.  Since 9/11, the JSOC  units and their task forces have become the U.S. government’s most  effective and lethal weapon against  terrorists and their networks, drawing plenty of unwanted, and  occasionally unflattering, attention to themselves in the process.

 JSOC costs the country more than $1 billion annually.  The command  has its critics, but it has escaped significant congressional  scrutiny and has  operated largely with impunity since 9/11.  Some of  its interrogators  and operators were involved in torture and rendition,  and the line  between its intelligence-gathering activities and the CIA's has been  blurred.

 But Sunday’s operation provides strong evidence that the CIA  and  JSOC work well together.  Sometimes intelligence needs to be  developed  rapidly, to get inside the enemy’s operational loop.  And sometimes it  needs to be cultivated, grown as if it were delicate bacteria in a petri dish.

 In an interview at CIA headquarters two weeks ago, a senior  intelligence official said the two proud groups of American secret  warriors had been “deconflicted  and basically integrated” -- finally -- 10 years after 9/11. Indeed,  according to accounts given to journalists  by five senior  administration officials Sunday night, the CIA gathered  the  intelligence that led to bin Laden’s location.  A memo from CIA   Director Leon Panetta sent Sunday night provides some hints of how the  information was collected and analyzed.  In it, he thanked the National Security Agency and the National Geospatial-Intelligence  Agency for  their help. NSA figured out, somehow, that there was no  telephone or  Internet service in the compound.  How it did this without  Pakistan’s  knowledge is a secret. The NGIA makes the military’s maps  but  also develops their pattern recognition software -- no doubt used  to help  establish, by February of this year, that the CIA could say  with “high  probability” that bin Laden and his family were living  there.

 Recently, JSOC built a new Targeting and Analysis Center in Rosslyn, Va. Where the National Counterterrorism  Center tends to focus on threats to the homeland, TAAC, whose existence  was first disclosed by the Associated Press, focuses outward, on active  “kinetic” -- or lethal -- counterterrorism missions abroad. Its creation surprised the NCTC’s director, Michael Leiter, who was suspicious about its intent until he visited.

 That the center could be stood up under the nose of some of the  nation’s most senior intelligence officials without their full knowledge  testifies to the power and reach of JSOC, whose size has tripled since  9/11. The command now includes more than 4,000 soldiers and civilians.   It has its own intelligence division, which may or may not have been  involved in last night’s effort, and has gobbled up a number of  free-floating Defense Department entities that allowed it to rapidly  acquire, test, and field new technologies.

 Under a variety of standing orders, JSOC is involved in more than 50  current operations spanning a dozen countries, and its units, supported  by so-called "white," or acknowledged, special operations entities like  Rangers, Special Forces battalions, SEAL teams, and Air Force special  ops units from the larger Special Operations Command, are responsible  for most of the “kinetic” action in Afghanistan.

 Pentagon officials are conscious of the enormous stress that 10  years of war have placed on the command.  JSOC resources are heavily  taxed by the operational tempo in Afghanistan and Pakistan, officials have said. The current commander, Vice Adm. William McRaven, and Maj. Gen. Joseph Votel, McRaven’s  nominated replacement, have been pushing to add people and  intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance technology to areas  outside the war theater where al-Qaida and its affiliates continue to thrive.

 Earlier this year, it seemed that the elite units would  face the same budget pressures that the entire military was  experiencing.  Not anymore.  The military found a way, largely by  reducing contracting staff and borrowing others from the Special Operations Command, to add 50 positions to JSOC.  And Votel wants to add several squadrons to the “Tier One” units -- Delta and the SEALs.

           When Gen. Stanley McChrystal became JSOC’s  commanding general in 2004, he and his intelligence chief, Maj. Gen.  Michael Flynn, set about transforming the way the subordinate units  analyze and act on intelligence. Insurgents in Iraq were exploiting the  slow decision loop that coalition commanders used, and enhanced  interrogation techniques were frowned upon after the Abu Ghraib scandal.  But the hunger for actionable tactical intelligence on insurgents was  palpable.

 The way JSOC solved this problem remains a carefully guarded secret,  but people familiar with the unit suggest that McChrystal and Flynn  introduced hardened commandos to basic criminal forensic techniques and  then used highly advanced and still-classified technology to transform  bits of information into actionable intelligence. One way they did this  was to create forward-deployed fusion cells, where JSOC units were  paired with intelligence analysts from the NSA and the NGA.  Such  analysis helped the CIA to establish, with a high degree of probability,  that Osama bin Laden and his family were hiding in that particular  compound.

 These technicians could “exploit and analyze” data obtained from the  battlefield instantly, using their access to the government’s various  biometric, facial-recognition, and voice-print databases. These cells  also used highly advanced surveillance technology and computer-based  pattern analysis to layer predictive models of insurgent behavior onto  real-time observations.

 The military has begun to incorporate these techniques across the  services. And Flynn will soon be promoted to a job within the Office of  the Director of National Intelligence, where he’ll be tasked with  transforming the way intelligence is gathered, analyzed, and utilized.

----------


## buriramboy

They flew him to Afghanistan then gave him a sea burial, last time i checked Afghanistan was land locked.

----------


## dirtydog

> This is so sad.  The repercussions will be extreme.


Yep, seems only you and me realise that, glad I aint merikan



> I was in Thailand when they came down- I was acquainted with two people that died in them- they were both decent guys with young families.


So are you saying that bin laden the saudi national was responsible for that and that the invasion of saudi arabia was correct, erm, I mean bin laden the saudi and the invasion of iraq, so we get 20 saudi nationas fuk america so they invade saudi, erm well close to saudi, a country called iraq, ok, I can see the logic in that if I put on a tinfoil hat and dance round naked amongst used tampons.

----------


## OhOh

> Originally Posted by OhOh
> 
> 
> The markets have decided.
> 
> The initial surge of the FDI - 73.000 to 73.026
> 
> Followed by drop - 73.026 to 72.770 
> 
> ...


Your point is what?

As of 13.30 est the FDI is 72.80

Gold is US$1572

Silver is US$48.58

As for the US Stock market DOW, S&P etc. devalued dollars may mean something to you, or possibly not.

----------


## nevets

It was reported that he was killed in Abattsabad in Packistan not Islamabad .

----------


## OhOh

> as more will certainly be revealed, maybe even some more video and a photograph. I'm willing to wait for that


See next quote




> As James Cameron said after "Avatar" - "if you can imagine it, we can make it".





> It seems ludicrous that the US would throw the hottest piece of forensic evidence they've ever


Unless it does not stack up




> We'll see how many more photos turn up in the next few days


See the James Cameron view on reality.
.



> Reuters releasing reports about a DNA match are some good evidence to confirm this OBL death


The DNA test was independently verified?




> They deserve to believe that justice has been served


US Wild West justice maybe, but not as required in the "civilised" world




> Clearly the US Goverment is smart enough to recognize that the world will demand collaborated evidence to support this assertion


Dream on.




> Below are about 20 of today’s front pages


Unfortunately they are all US publications, and as such merit little factual relevance.

----------


## Gerbil

> They flew him to Afghanistan then gave him a sea burial, last time i checked Afghanistan was land locked.


Should have strapped him to a suitcase nuke and dropped him in the middle of Mecca.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*DNA test on bin Laden show 100 percent match to family | Reuters
*
*DNA test on bin Laden show 100 percent match to family*


 
7:29pm EDT

                      WASHINGTON |          Mon May 2, 2011 1:12pm EDT         

  (Reuters) - DNA tests on the body of  Osama bin Laden showed a virtual 100 percent match to relatives, and a  woman believed to be his wife also identified him by name, a senior U.S.  intelligence official told reporters on Monday.

  The United States was now reviewing a large cache of materials seized at the compound in Pakistan where U.S. forces killed bin Laden, the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity to reporters.

"Those  materials are currently being exploited and analyzed and a task force  is being set up at CIA ... given the volume of materials collected at  the raid site," the official said.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*PhotoBlog - Web's bin Laden 'death photo' (just the photo) is fake
*
*Web's bin Laden 'death photo' (just the photo) is fake*

Stokes Young writes

*Update from NBC News, 11:04 a.m. ET:*

From NBC's Courtney Kube: A senior U.S. official says that they are still deciding whether to release a still photo of dead bin Laden. 

 "It is really, really graphic," the official said, adding that U.S.  officials are trying to decide whether it is just too graphic to put  out.*New link, 10:50 a.m. ET:*

From The Guardian: (Linked page contains graphic image)*:* The bloodied image of a man with matted hair and a blank, half-opened   eye has been circulating on the internet for the past two years. It  was  used on the front pages of the Mail, Times, Telegraph, Sun and  Mirror  websites, though swiftly removed after the fake was exposed on  Twitter.

 It appears  the fake picture was initially published by the Middle East online newspaper themedialine.org on 29 April 2009, with a warning from the editor that it was "unable to ascertain whether the photo is genuine or not".

----------


## TafkaB

I knew that photo wasn't right from the start. 

So now we have no pics of his dead body.

----------


## S Landreth

Timeline,.


The mission to kill Osama bin Laden was years in the making, but began in earnest last fall with the discovery of a suspicious compound near Islamabad, and culminated with a helicopter based raid in the early morning hours in Pakistan Sunday. 

"Last August, after years of painstaking work by our intelligence community, I was briefed on a possible lead to bin Laden. It was far from certain, and it took many months to run this thread to ground," *President Obama* told the nation in a speech Sunday night. 

"Today, at my direction, the United States launched a targeted operation against that compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan. A small team of Americans carried out the operation with extraordinary courage and capability. No Americans were harmed. They took care to avoid civilian casualties. After a firefight, they killed Osama bin Laden and took custody of his body," he said. 

Sitting in a row of chairs beside the podium were National Security Advisor *Tom Donilon*, Director of National Intelligence *James Clapper*, CIA Director *Leon Panetta*, Joint Chiefs Chairman Adm. *Mike Mullin*, Secretary of State *Hillary Clinton*, and Vice President *Joe Biden*. White House Chief of Staff *Bill Daley* and Press Secretary *Jay Carney* stood in the back with about a dozen White House staffers. 

Since last August, Obama convened at least 9 meetings with national security principals about this operation and the principals met 5 times without the president, a senior administration official said. Their deputies met 7 times formally amid a flurry of other interagency communications and consultations. 

_ABC News_ *reported* that the principals' meetings were held on March 14, March 29, April 12, April 19 and April 28. 

Last week Obama finally had enough intelligence last to take action. The final decision to go forward with the operation was made at 8:20 AM on Friday, April 29 in the White House's Diplomatic Room. In the room at the time were Donilon, his deputy *Denis McDonough*, and counterterrorism advisor *John Brennan*. Donilon prepared the formal orders. 

On Sunday, Obama went to play golf in the morning at Andrews Air Force Base. He played 9 holes in chilly, rainy weather and spent a little time on the driving range, as well. Meanwhile, the principals were assembling in the situation room at the White House. They were there from 1:00 PM and stayed put for the rest of the day. 

At 2:00, Obama met with the principals back at the White House. At 3:32 he went to the situation room for another briefing. At 3:50 he was told that bin Laden was "tentatively identified." At 7:01 Obama was told there was a "high probability" the high value target at the compound was bin Laden. At 8:30 Obama got the final briefing. 

Before speaking to the nation, Obama called former presidents *Bill Clinton* and *George W. Bush*. 

Three senior administration officials briefed reporters late Sunday night on the surveillance, intelligence, and military operations that ended with bin Laden's death at the hands of U.S. operatives. 

"The operation was the culmination of years of careful and highly advanced intelligence work," a senior administration official said. 

The stream of information that led to Sunday's raid began over four years ago, when U.S. intelligence personnel were alerted about two couriers who were working with al Qaeda and had deep connections to top al Qaeda officials. Prisoners in U.S. custody flagged these two couriers as individuals who might have been helping bin Laden, one official said 

"One courier in particular had our constant attention," the official said. He declined to give that courier's name but said he was a protégé of *Khalid Sheikh Mohammed* and a "trusted assistant" of *Abu Faraj al-Libbi*, a former senior al Qaeda officer who was captured in 2005. 

"Detainees also identified this man as one of the few couriers trusted by bin Laden," the official said. The U.S. intelligence community uncovered the identity of this courier four years ago, and two years ago, the U.S. discovered the area of Pakistan this courier and his brother were working in. 

In August 2010, the intelligence agencies found the exact compound where this courier was living, in Abbottabad, Pakistan. The neighborhood is affluent and many retired Pakistani military officials live there. 

"When we saw the compound where the brothers lived, we were shocked by what we saw," one official said. 

The compound was 8 times larger than the other homes around it. It was built in 2005 in an area that was secluded at that time. There were extraordinary security measures at the compound, including 12 to 18 foot walls topped with barbed wire. 

There were other suspicious indicators at the compound. Internal sections were walled off from the rest of the compound. There were two security gates. The residents burned their trash. The main building had few windows. 

The compound, despite being worth over $1 million, had no telephone or internet service. There's no way the courier and his brother could have afforded it, the official said. 

"Intelligence officials concluded that this compound was custom built to hide someone of significance," the official said, adding that the size and makeup of one of the families living there matched the suspected makeup of bin Laden's entourage. 

The intelligence community had high confidence that the compound had a high value target, and the analysts concluded there was high probability that target was bin Laden, one official said. 

When the small team of U.S. operatives raided the compound in the early morning hours Sunday Pakistan time, they encountered resistance and killed three men besides bin Laden and one woman. The three men were the two couriers and one of bin Laden's sons. The woman was being used as a human shield, one official said. Two other women were injured. 

One U.S. helicopter was downed due to unspecified "maintenance" issues, one official said. The U.S. personnel blew up the helicopter before leaving the area. The team was on the ground for only 40 minutes. 

A senior defense official told CNN that US Navy SEALs were involved in the mission. 

No other governments were briefed on the operation before it occurred, including the host government Pakistan. 

"That was for one reason and one reason alone. That was essential to the security of the operation and our personnel," one official said. Only a "very small group of people" inside the U.S. government knew about the operation. Afterwards, calls were made to the Pakistani government and several other allied countries. 

"Since 9/11 the United States has made it clear to Pakistan that we would pursue bin Laden wherever he might be," one official said. "Pakistan has long understood we are at war with al Qaeda. The United States had a moral and legal obligation to act on the information it had." 

Americans abroad should stay indoors be aware of the increased threat of attacks following bin Laden's killing, the State Department said in a new travel warning issued Sunday night. State also issued a specific travel warning for Pakistan. 

"Al Qaeda operatives and sympathizers may try to respond violently to avenge bin Laden's death and other terrorist leaders may try to accelerate their efforts to attack the United States," one official said. "We have always understood that this fight would be a marathon and not a sprint." 



Link: http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/05/01/the_timeline_of_the_mission_to_kill_osama_bin_lade  n

----------


## harrybarracuda

It makes me puke that Blair and Cameron are talking about how happy people in Britain are about this, when the million+ Pakis, Banglas, Afghanis, Yemenis, etc. are already plotting their vengeance.

You cocksucking, arselicking, politician cunts. I hope you rot in hell with the beardy twat.

----------


## scrapmetalband

> It makes me puke that Blair and Cameron are talking about how happy people in Britain are about this, when the million+ Pakis, Banglas, Afghanis, Yemenis, etc. are already plotting their vengeance.
> 
> You cocksucking, arselicking, politician cunts. I hope you rot in hell with the beardy twat.


What would you have done?

----------


## blue

> the million+ Pakis, Banglas, Afghanis, Yemenis, etc. are already plotting their vengeance.


good , bring it on immigrant scum .

Tony Blair ,what a horror , he looks like a robot with some dead persons orange/brown  skin stretched across his face -
filth

Osama bin laden  ?  glad he's dead but   would feel more comfortable with American politicians cheering if they had not been giving him stinger surface to air missiles to kill many young Russian soldiers

----------


## redbaron

So now there will be a new enemy. A new leader of Al Quaeda or whatever this year's big bad terrorist organisation becomes.. 

 Even though he's dead, could Bin Laden be eligible to claim victory? 
Over 3,000 dead on 9/11, hundreds of thousands dead (military and  civilians) during this war, resources of the USA tied up for ten years  so far, financial troubles (to put it lightly) for OBL's enemy - the US  and the west.

 People are scared to fly, cost of everything gone up... did killing him really make "us" win anything??

 I don't have the answer, hopefully someone does. A fucking lot of  people are dead, millions homeless and living in appalling conditions..  it's all fucked

----------


## Boon Mee

> Originally Posted by buriramboy
> 
> They flew him to Afghanistan then gave him a sea burial, last time i checked Afghanistan was land locked.
> 
> 
> Should have strapped him to a suitcase nuke and dropped him in the middle of Mecca.


Got that right.   BTW, this is vindication for harsh interrogation methods too.  For all you bleeding hearts, it works... :mid: 

One Unwary Phone Call Led US to Bin Laden Doorstep - ABC News

----------


## Thormaturge

Fox News have their own unique take on this..

----------


## Hampsha

Nice catch Thorm


Hillary disapppeared over the past few weeks. She must have been involved with this and how it would play out afterwards.



Don't forget the Bush family would never have killed Osama bin Laden because he's a family member.

----------


## Boon Mee

Thank Bush not Obama for getting OBL:

Guess who spilled the beans that led to bin Laden and why:  Current and former U.S. officials say that Khalid Sheikh  Mohammed, the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks,  provided the nom de guerre of one of bin Laden's most trusted aides. The  CIA got similar information from Mohammed's successor, Abu Faraj  al-Libi. Both were subjected to harsh interrogation tactics inside CIA  prisons in Poland and Romania.The news is sure to reignite debate over whether the  now-closed interrogation and detention program was successful. Former  president George W. Bush authorized the CIA to use the harshest  interrogation tactics in U.S. history. President Barack Obama closed the  prison system.

That pussy Obama wouldn't have approved those so-called 'harsh interrogatrion methods'.  It took someone with balls (Dubya) to make that call...

----------


## Hampsha

Boonme, that's just plain pathetic. Your nazi party sure is desperate.

----------


## Boon Mee

As a reminder who gets the credit for double-tapping that Osama guy, it ain't Obama folks...

YouTube - Obama: U.S. `Will Not Torture&#39;

Obama promising to end the policies that led to finding bin Laden.

----------


## Butterfly

> Even though he's dead, could Bin Laden be eligible to claim victory?


of course it's not a victory, it's a petty victory when the world is crumbling around us

----------


## Hampsha

So Boonme you are saying even though the US has had the guy they tortured for years Osama wouldn't have found a new place to stay? Plenty of people were tortured and killed as well who did nothing wrong. In these cases, the US is in fact as evil as the terrorists. What's your reponse to that? There is none. You and Osama's supporters are one and the same. Terrorist supporter.

----------


## Hampsha

> of course it's not a victory, it's a petty victory when the world is crumbling around us


Yep. All the old welfare recipients in the US want their social security money and pensions at the cost of the nation. In the end what's left is a heap of a mess. Osama dead but the US on financial death row. All the work of old folks.

----------


## Butterfly

> We do not have body, we do not have anyone who knew him admitting to a body, we have a statement that a body has been buried "at sea". We have reports of a lightly guarded mansion attacked by "forces. A helicopter was brought down. A report that a body, with a head wound, was the wanted person. 
> 
> The reasoning for the sea burial is that a shrine would not be created. Are the "authorities" going to shoot all the "believers" who go to the site of his mansion?
> 
> Why was he not captured and put on trial. Was there insufficient evidence?


Obama could well be mislead by the same people who mislead the weaker GW Bush,

too many holes in the story, maybe he was already dead and they found out and had to make a spectacle of it

next time Americans are bombed 9/11 style, they shouldn't complained for "nutters" dancing in the streets, as they are themselves those nutters

----------


## superman

> Originally Posted by redbaron
> 
> Even though he's dead, could Bin Laden be eligible to claim victory?
> 
> 
> of course it's not a victory, it's a petty victory when the world is crumbling around us


Mr Butterfly think positive. 

 :bananaman:

----------


## oldracer

Good riddance. AMF (adios mother f****r)

----------


## Boon Mee

> So Boonme you are saying even though the US has had the guy they tortured for years Osama wouldn't have found a new place to stay? Plenty of people were tortured and killed as well who did nothing wrong. In these cases, the US is in fact as evil as the terrorists. What's your reponse to that? There is none. You and Osama's supporters are one and the same. Terrorist supporter.


You ain't following the plot too good there Hampsha...the courier that led to OBL's demise was discovered thru interrogations of captured Al Queda's.  The way it works is this courier would not have been known w/out a little sleep deprivation and mebe some Pet Shop Boys music played at 120db, OK?

----------


## Hampsha

TOo bad Bush couldn't do it. McCain said he would get him in six months after entering office. McCain is a failure for not getting him despite not being in office. Sometimes the success goes to those who were there at the right time. If Bush hadn't been such a fkwad Republicans would have stayed in office. But that failure is about much more than Osama. Without the war in the middle east I'm sure the US could have got him a bit sooner than 10 years. A million people die to get their leader? Thousands of Americans have died in the process too. We're happy but what a fucking waste of life, money and time. Most of that expense belongs in the hands fo the Republicans who bunged the whole thing from the beginning.

----------


## superman

Don't believe the propaganda the yanks are spewing out. Nobody in their right mind will tell the truth as to this story. Misinformation will be used to detract people away how they obtained their intelligence. 
I'll just wait for the movie to come out. May be it'll be called 'Bin Laden Down' ?

----------


## sabang

> How it did this without Pakistans knowledge is a secret.


Whether or not it received some information, surveillance, or any other form of assistance from entities within Pakistan- tacit or otherwise- is a secret too. Certainly a good portion of Pakistans security forces and citizenry would be happy to see OBL dead, others not.

----------


## Butterfly

Osama still won,

3,000 killed in the WTC, and another 5,000 killed in Afghanistan

----------


## Boon Mee

The Iranian regime today reported that Osama Bin Laden was killed out  of fear that he would leak information on joint US-Al Qaeda terror  operations.

Fars News reported:

"US has killed the Al-Qaeda leader, Osama Bin Laden, in a  bid to prevent any possible leakage of intelligence and information  about the US-Al-Qaeda joint terrorist operations, a senior Iranian  legislator underscored on Monday.
 “The West was fully satisfied with bin Laden’s performance during the  past years and today… it was obliged to kill him to prevent possible  leakage of the priceless intelligence that he had,” member of the  parliament’s National Security and Foreign Policy Commission Javad  Jahangirzadeh told FNA on Monday. 
 He mentioned that the West seeks to rebuild its damaged face in the  international community, and reiterated that Bin Laden’s survival could  endanger the interests of the western countries and disclose their past  and future clandestine operations. 
 Jahangirzadeh warned the world countries that the West has hatched a  new plot to find new pretexts for invading and occupying the Muslim  countries." 



Hampsha seen nodding in approval... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## rickschoppers

For all you skeptics and conspiracy freaks, it will be interesting to see what shakes out of the trees in a month or so. I have listed a few names below and since this thread will last quite awhile, I would like to see what each of you have to say once most of the facts (or nonfacts) come out. You all know my take on this event and I am hanging myself out there if I am wrong. So here is your chance:

socal
Butterfly
khmen
TafkaB
Thormaturge
Airportwo
ENT
FarangRed
OhOh
Tom Sawyer
Dick

If I am wrong about this, I am willing to take the heat. If I am right you will all loose some street cred which is not that painful. If you guys are right I will also ackowledge you all know more than I do about conspiracy and US political gain, but I don't think so. :mid:

----------


## Carrabow

> Don't believe the propaganda the yanks are spewing out. Nobody in their right mind will tell the truth as to this story. Misinformation will be used to detract people away how they obtained their intelligence. 
> I'll just wait for the movie to come out. May be it'll be called 'Bin Laden Down' ?


Agreed,

There are too many variables, even who they claimed did the task leaves one to scratching the old noggin. For instance, I know certain helicopters have refueling booms and can fly long distance. 

Something just don't add up with the published story. Some things are better left alone.

Job well done for the silent professionals and all who cooperated. Now it is time to watch out for the backlash.

----------


## PlanK

What happened to the bodies of the wife/son/brother?

----------


## FarangRed

At least they had the decency to wait until after the Royal Wedding.

----------


## FarangRed



----------


## FarangRed



----------


## Cujo

it ws inevitable that the conspiracy theorists would be on this like white on rice. it doesn't hurt to keep them guessing i suppose.
Of course the proof is in the pudding.
if he's alive I will expect in a couple of days a video of him dancing a jig and saying "look here, see, I'm not dead, americans are liars"
Untill then I can only assume he's dead.
Those that know for sure he's dead (seen the body) are few, and I'm sure they don't give a fuck what the whackjob brigade believes.

----------


## Butterfly

it was inevitable that the usual sheep will fall for any story fed to them by the government because asking too many questions is scaring them and they are afraid of big black helicopters flying over their head  :Smile: 

the mass is weak, and therefore they are slaughter materials for their masters

can't blame the masters for feeding such garbage to a gullible population, they probably don't deserve the truth anyhow

----------


## taxexile

^

just google "conspiracy theorists mental illness" for 50,000+ reality checks

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## Butterfly

> just google "conspiracy theorists mental illness" for 50,000+ reality checks


try googling "terrorists" for another reality check,

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## taxexile

^

see what i mean.

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## Butterfly

^ exactly, no shortage of suckers who fall for government propaganda and conspiracy theories

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## Carrabow

> it ws inevitable that the conspiracy theorists would be on this like white on rice. it doesn't hurt to keep them guessing i suppose.
> Of course the proof is in the pudding.
> if he's alive I will expect in a couple of days a video of him dancing a jig and saying "look here, see, I'm not dead, americans are liars"
> Untill then I can only assume he's dead.
> Those that know for sure he's dead (seen the body) are few, and I'm sure they don't give a fuck what the whackjob brigade believes.


 Get a distance shot of Mr. Bean with some lamb chops on his face and a turban on his head.

The Inquire would buy off on that  :rofl:

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## Jools

> doesn't change a thing, he has fathered thousands of leaders now


....and at least ONE (demented) follower. :Smile:

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## Dan

PZ Myers - as he usually does - summed it all up rather well:




> While it's necessary to stop terrorists, sometimes with violence, it is barbarous to gloat over the execution of an enemy. I find the chanting crowds cheering over the corpse disturbing, and the triumphal tone of our leaders is misplaced. We killed hundreds of thousands of civilians and threw away trillions of dollars, and our trophy is the bloody corpse of one old man? There's no victory in that.
> 
> I'm also cynical. What was the point? Nothing will change. We live in Idiot America, which is also Fearful America, which is also Paranoid America, which is also Solve-Our-Problems-With-A-Gun America. One figurehead is dead, now the focus of our country's fear will shift to some amorphous mass of generic Muslims, and the troops will continue their destruction, and we'll still flag our cowardice with pointless color changes at our airports, and we'll continue to sacrifice our civil liberties at the altar of national security. Nothing was accomplished, our purpose is as vague and tyrannical as ever, we'll need to continue to kill more to feed our illusion of safety.
> 
> Oh, there is one thing we've got now. A few more politicians will cloak themselves in the blood of our enemies in the next election, and victory will be achieved for Blowing Shit Up in the name of Getting Things Done. And we'll perpetuate the violence because it appeals to our citizen savages.

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## robuzo

> PZ Myers - as he usually does - summed it all up rather well:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				While it's necessary to stop terrorists, sometimes with violence, it is barbarous to gloat over the execution of an enemy. I find the chanting crowds cheering over the corpse disturbing, and the triumphal tone of our leaders is misplaced. We killed hundreds of thousands of civilians and threw away trillions of dollars, and our trophy is the bloody corpse of one old man? There's no victory in that.
> 
> ...


Clearly, he hates America. As to "A few more politicians will cloak themselves in the blood of our enemies in the next election," at least John McCain has already clearly stated he would not have taken such an action:
McCain Opposed Going Into Pakistan
"In July 2008, Larry King asked Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), If you were president and knew that bin Laden was in Pakistan, you know where, would you have U.S. forces go in after him?

McCain said he would not.

'Larry, Im not going to go there and heres why: because Pakistan is a sovereign nation.'"
---

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## rickschoppers

Wow Dan, if Paul Zachary (PZ) Myers is your idea of getting things right most of the time, you have issues. How did you get brainwashed by him?

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## Thormaturge

One for the Americans...

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## Humbert

> PZ Myers - as he usually does - summed it all up rather well:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				While it's necessary to stop terrorists, sometimes with violence, it is barbarous to gloat over the execution of an enemy. I find the chanting crowds cheering over the corpse disturbing, and the triumphal tone of our leaders is misplaced. We killed hundreds of thousands of civilians and threw away trillions of dollars, and our trophy is the bloody corpse of one old man? There's no victory in that.
> 
> ...


One of the most laughable bits of phony, self-rightous indignation I have ever read.

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## ceburat

> One for the Americans...


What is the reference over the word "SEALS" in the photo? I can't read it here.

I would like to get some posters like this one. Can you provide me with information.

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## Cujo

I'm very disappointed at the Americans lack of sensitivity to the Muslim religion.
Traditionally they should have hacked his head off in front of the video camera and held it up to the camera, that would also (maybe) have satisfied the tin hat brigade.

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## rickschoppers

^^

 :rofl:  :rofl: 

Good one Koojo.

----------


## Cujo

*Osama bin Laden killed: live coverage*




* Barack Obama says 'the world is a safer place' after al-Qaeda leader Osama bin    Laden is killed by US Special Forces in Abbottabad, Pakistan, just 800 yards    from the country's 'Sandhurst' military training college.  * 


                                                                                                                                                                President Obama, Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden watch the attack on bin Laden unfold via live video feed in the White House 






              By Heidi Blake                                  4:06AM BST 03 May 2011                                   406 Comments 


                                                                This page will automatically update every 90 secondsOn             Off         

*• Bin    Laden used his wife as a "human shield" before he was shot*
*• Bin    Laden's body given Islamic burial at sea off aircraft carrier*
*• Pakistan    called to prove it did not know bin Laden's location*
*• Debate at White House over whether to release photos* 
*• Bin Laden 'recorded propaganda tape shortly before his death'*
*• Bloody aftermath of attack on bin Laden's    compound* 

* Latest * 

*04:19 Toby Harden* has also *posted    a blog*: 10 questions, a day after Osama bin Laden's death. 

*04:06* *Toby Harden*, our US editor, has been watching Andy Card,    the Bush-era White House chief of staff, on CNN:  

* [at]tobyharnden* _Blimey.    Andy Card just said on CNN that killing of Osama bin Laden is for Americans    what the royal wedding was for Brits._ 

*03:55* *The    New York Times* has a gripping, detailed story on the events that led    up to the death of bin Laden.  

*03:43* A US official says bin Laden was far from alone when US forces    launched their assault on his compound in Pakistan.  
  The official told The Associated Press that 23 children and nine women were in    the compound that had served as bin Laden's secret home for six years. The    official said the women and children were turned over to Pakistani    authorities.  
*03:30* Preapre for Osama: the movie. Kathryn Bigelow, who won an Academy    Award in 2010 for "The Hurt Locker," was already working on a    movie about the al-Qaeda leader's death before he was killed.  
  According to* the Hollywood    Reporter,* Bigelow had been discussing a project provisionally    entitled "Kill Bin Laden," based on a previous failed attempt to    take out the world's most wanted man.  
  The website said the project could be quickly adapted to take in the recent    developments.  
*03:20* *The    Huffington Post* has an interesting story about how the death of bin    Laden will affect Mr Obama's re-election hopes. Political commentators in    the US think he will get a temporary bounce.  
*03:11* Arab and Muslim Americans have joined in celebrations over the    death of Osama bin Laden, saying justice had been served.  
  "We are very happy to hear the news that he has been eliminated,"    said Osama Siblani, publisher of The Arab American News.  
  "This man is not a Muslim. This man has killed more Muslims than    Americans - tens of thousands of people," he told AFP.  
  "People are very excited that this happened because they want this sad    chapter to be closed. They understand more than anyone else how much damage    this man has done to the Muslim world and to the Arab world."  
*03:08* CNN says the White House has "no plan" to release a    photograph of Osama Bin Laden taken after he had been killed, although it    has not been ruled out for some time in the future.  
*02:54* The Herald Sun, Australia's biggest selling newspaper, seems to    believe it had a first hand role in the killing of bin Laden. It's front    page headline reads: *How    we got him*.  
*02:45* China has broken its silence over the death of bin Laden.  
  "We have noted the announcement and believe that this is a major event    and a positive development in the international struggle against terrorism,"    a Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman said in a statement  
*02:32* The Associated Press is reporting an anonymous US official as    saying Bin Laden was shot above his left eye, "blowing away part of his    skull".  
*02:24* This is almost too bad to be true. Major James Abbott, the    British founder of Abbottabad, *wrote    a poem about the region*. It is awful. For example:  
_Oh Abbottabad we are leaving you now_  
_To your natural beauty do I bow_  
_Perhaps your winds sound will never reach my ear_  
_My gift for you is a few sad tears_ 
*02:13* *Writing    in the Washington Post*, Asif Ali Zardari, Pakistan's president, has    rejected suggestions that the government knew bin Laden was hiding within    its borders.  

_Pakistan had as much reason to despise al-Qaeda as any nation._  
_The war on terrorism is as much Pakistan's war as as it is America's. And    though it may have started with bin Laden, the forces of modernity and    moderation remain under serious threat._ 
*02:04 Susan    Piver,* the Huffington Post's resident Buddhist blogger, has asked if    it is appropriate to celebrate bin Laden's death.  

_Was there even a hint of vengefulness or gladness at Osama bin Laden's    death? If so, that is a real problem. Whatever suffering he may have    experienced cannot reverse even one moment of the suffering he caused. If    you believe his death is a form of compensation, you are deluded._ 
*02:00* Former US vice president Dick Cheney has praised President Barack    Obama over the killing of bin Laden, but warned it would be a "tragedy"    to become complacent.  
  "The administration clearly deserves credit for the success of the    operation," he told ABC News, as he offered rare praise of Mr Obama's    judgment in giving the green light for the commando raid.  
*01:52 Politico    is reporting* that during the raid on bin Laden's compound, US SEALS    snatched a trove of computer drives and disks that US officials have called "the    motherlode of intelligence".  
  “They cleaned it out,” one official said. “Can you imagine what’s on Osama bin    Laden’s hard drive?” 
*01:49* The White House has announced that Mr *Obama* will visit Ground Zero in New York on Thursday and meet relatives of    those killed in the al-Qaeda attacks on the twin towers.  
*01.45* Obama added: "I want again to thank the heroes who carried    out this incredibly difficult mission." 
*01.40* The President tells his assembled guests: "I think we    experienced the same sense of unity that prevailed on 9/11. We were reminded    again that there is a pride in what this nation stands for and what we can    achieve that runs far deeper than party, far deeper than politics." 
  "I know that the unity that we felt on 9/11 has frayed a little bit over    the years and I have no illusions about the difficulties of the debates that    will have to be engaged in over the coming months." 
  “But tonight it is my fervent hope that we can harness some of that unity and    some of that pride to rise to some of the challenges that we now face.” 
*01.36* Obama is addressing a bipartisan dinner for Congressional leaders    in the White House. He receives resounding applause and a standing ovation    when he says that the killing of Osama bin Laden shows what the American    people can achieve when they pull together.  
*01.32* Rudy Giuliani, the Mayor of New York during the 9/11 attacks,    tells ABC television that he felt "real satisfaction... relief and a    sense of revenge." when he heard of bin Laden's death.  
*01.25* Unnamed US officials in the White House are casting doubt on    claims that bin Laden used his wife as a human shield during the raid on his    compound.  
  A US official has told Reuters that the woman who died in the raid was not the    wife of the al-Qaeda leader and was not being used to shield him from    attack.  
  John Brennan, President Barack Obama's top counter- terrorism adviser, told    reporters earlier that the slain woman had been one of bin Laden's wives and    had been used - perhaps voluntarily - as a shield during the firefight.  
  However, a different White House official said that account had turned out not    to be the case. Bin Laden's wife was injured but not killed in the assault,    he said.  
*01.15* The* Economist    blog examines the impact of bin Laden's discovery in Pakistan* on the    international credibility of the nation's leaders.  
_Whichever way you cut it, Pakistan’s authorities are in a bind over the    discovery, and killing, of Osama bin Laden by American Navy Seals in    Abbottabad, a military town just north of Islamabad. The hollow claims made    for many years by Pakistani rulers, military chiefs and spooks that Mr bin    Laden, other al-Qaeda leaders and Taliban bosses were being allowed no    refuge inside Pakistan, have been spectacularly exposed. The fact that he    had last been holed up not in some wretched mountain cave but in a specially    built, fortress-like compound within a mile of a prestigious military    academy, in a town bristling with Pakistani military men, is a damning    detail to which Pakistan’s authorities are struggling to respond._ 
*01.09* Even the Even the Texas House of Representatives has passed a    motion praising President Obama in the wake of Bin Laden's death. The Dallas    Morning News reports that Rep Jim Keffer said that he hopes that every state    in the Union is commending the president today.  

*00.50* The _Telegraph_'s Steven Swinford reveals how *bin    Laden used his wife as a human shield* as US forces raided his    compound.  
__ Armed with an automatic weapon, the al-Qaeda leader's last act was to    force his young bride to sacrifice her life as he tried to fire back at the    US Navy Seals storming the compound.  
  Bin Laden was killed with a single shot to the head after being tracked down    to a million-dollar compound just 35 miles from the Pakistani capital,    Islamabad, where he is thought to have been living for six years.  
*00.35* Online chatter about the death of Osama bin Laden was so intense    on Monday morning that it *set    a new record on Twitter*.  
  The microblogging site has revealed that users *posted    messages at an average rate of 3,440 tweets per second* during    President Obama's address - the highest rate of sustained tweets ever.  
  At the peak of this online conversation, Twitter users posted 5,106 tweets per    second, according to the company.  
*00.22* The_ New York Times_ - that bastion of editorial propriety -    has dropped the "Mr" from bin Laden's name following his killing    by US forces.  
  The newspaper had previously drawn criticism for continuing to refer to the    al-Qaeda leader as Mr bin Laden, despite his role in the greatest terrorist    atrocity ever perpetrated on US soil. But staff at the publication were *ordered    to drop the honorific in an email from their editors* following    President Obama's announcement of his death on Monday morning.  
*00.15* Obama ordered the killing or capture of bin Laden at almost the    exact moment that the newly married Duke and Duchess of Cambridge were    kissing on the balcony of Buckingham Palace. In a darker coincidence, the    announcement of the al-Qaeda leader's demise comes on the same day that the    death of Adolph Hitler was made public in Berlin, notes Darris McNeely notes    in a *post    on the United Church of God website*.  
*00.10* Gordon Rayner has *all    the thrilling details* of an attack described by one British special    forces officer as “one of the great commando raids of all time”.  
 _At 8.30pm BST on Sunday four Black Hawk helicopters, carrying Navy Seal    Team Six, landed beside the compound, already under fire from bin Laden’s    guards._  
_As Mr Obama monitored the raid from the Situation Room, the operation    momentarily appeared to be headed for disaster, as one of the choppers    developed mechanical problems while hovering._  
_Aides feared a repeat of the infamous “Black Hawk Down” incident in Somalia    in 1993, but the pilot managed to land the helicopter safely. Initial    reports that it had been hit by gunfire, or even one of several    rocket-propelled grenades fired from the roof of the building, were denied    by US officials._  
_Knowing it would not take off again, the soldiers blew it up on the spot._  
_A full-scale firefight broke out as the Seals dashed into the compound,    picking off targets with surgical precision. Both the courier and his    brother, as well as an adult son of bin Laden, were killed, as well as a    woman being used as a human shield._  
_Within moments of going inside the main building, the Seals had sight of    bin Laden, who had grabbed an automatic weapon and was firing at them. He    was shot in the face by one of the Seals, who fired a second shot into his    head and one into his chest to make sure he was dead._  
_At 8.50BST, just 20 minutes after the team had entered the compound, the    commander on the ground told Washington that bin Laden had been located. The    Situation Room, and the CIA’s command centre, erupted with cheers._  
_Just 40 minutes after the Seals had touched down, they were airborne again,    having stripped the compound of every scrap of intelligence material they    could find, as well as bin Laden’s body._  
*00.02* Sky News reports that US officials say video footage of bin    Laden's burial at sea will "probably" be released soon.  
*23.50* A US national security official has confirmed to Reuters what the _Telegraph_'s    *Tim    Ross reported earlier* - that one of the key sources for information    about the al Qaeda "courier" who led US authorities to bin Laden's    Pakistani hide-out was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the 9/11 mastermind.  
*23.46* Pakistan is facing questions about the amount of aid it accepted    from the US while Osama bin Laden lived within its borders.  
  "The United States provides billions of dollars in aid to Pakistan,"    said Senator Frank Lautenberg, a fellow Democrat on the Senate    Appropriations Committee that apportions government spending. "Before    we send another dime, we need to know whether Pakistan truly stands with us    in the fight against terrorism."  
*23.40* Spoof posters like this one are now proliferating online,    highlighting a public surge of goodwill towards President Obama.  

*23.34* Bin Laden's death has caused a memorabillia explosion in New    York, with street vendors and online stores busily peddling trinkets to    commemorate the moment.  
  Hastily-designed mugs and T-shirts appeared for sale online, many featuring    bin Laden's face the word 'DEAD' scrawled in large letters, Reuters reports.  
  One t-shirt depicted bin Laden with a bloody gunshot wound in his forehead,    while another showed a soldier carrying an American flag and the words "We    Got Him".  
*23.32* _The Sun_ is the last British paper to replease tomorrow's    front page, predictably leading on a somewhat tortured pun.  

*23.28* Gordon Rayner, the _Telegraph_'s Chief Reporter, examines "bin    Laden’s almost supernatural ability to dodge the combined might of the    western world’s military and intelligence powers". *He    writes*:  
 _From the stone-age caves of Tora Bora to a luxury apartment in Tehran, the    CIA chased endless shadows and false leads in a hunt that seemed destined to    fail. Many analysts came to believe that bin Laden was already dead, having    succumbed, supposedly, to typhoid._  
_In the end, America’s unending obsession with Osama bin Laden led them to a    hideout that could hardly have been further removed from the mountains and    tunnels where most people pictured him being holed up: a million-dollar    purpose-built compound within walking distance of Pakistan’s main military    academy._  
*22.23* _The Guardian_'s front page questions why it took the US so    long to capture its most wanted man.  

*23.20* _The Times_ unveils a straightforward take on bin Laden's    death on tomorrow's front page.  

*23.18* The _Telegraph_'s *Catherine    Gee* is disturbed by images of jubilation on the streets of America.    She tweets:  
_ So when Muslims cheer about dead Westerners it's bad. But it's fine when we do    it? Bad taste much._ 
*23.14* *[at]jonswaine*,    The _Telegraph_'s New York Correspondent, tweets:  
_ Easy, today, to glide over the fact that via the UN Security Council, Russia    and China just welcomed a political assassination by the US_ 
*23.11* PJ Crowley, a former US State Department spokeswoman, tells BBC    Newsnight:  
__ A year-and-a-half ago, Secretary Clinton was in Islamabad. I was with her    and she mused out loud that it was hard for her to conceive that no-one in    the Pakistani government knew where Bin Laden was. And now that we see that    he's in a compound close to retired military officers or to a garrison and a    school, that question will come back up yet again.  
*23.09* The White House has now *released    a full photo gallery* charting the mounting tension in the days and    hours leading up to the attack on bin Laden.  
*22.55* Sir Christopher Meyer, Britain's ambassador to the US during the    9/11 attacks, warns of the possible ramifications of bin Laden's death on    the BBC's Newsnight.  
__ At this moment of triumph, I think there are two worms of doubt which we    must not ignore. One is whether his death will actually excite extremism in    certain quarters of the Islamic world among Jihadists. And secondly, we have    no idea yet, I don't think, what the impact is going to be in Pakistan.    Given that the Pakistanis get very, very irritated when they think that    their sovereignty is being abused by American military action which crosses    the border from Afghanistan.  
*22.43* The UN Security Council welcomes the death of Bin Laden,    describing it as a "critical development" in the fight against    terrorism, according to the AFP news agency.  
*22.39* Tomorrow's _Daily Mirror_ front page carries a photograph of    the blood on the carpeted floor of the al-Qarda compound where bin Laden was    killed. 

*22.33* The _Daily Mail_ has released its front page for tomorrow,    leading on the drama which unfolded in the White House as Obama and his    aides watched the attack on bin Laden via a live video feed.  

*22.24* The White House *has    released this picture of President Obama*, Hillary Clinton and Vice    President Joe Biden watching the mission against bin Laden unfold in the    Situation Room of the White House, along with members of the national    security team. The expressions on the faces of Obama and Clinton in    particular are worth a thousand words.  

*22.20* Wajid Hasan, Pakistan's High Commissioner to the UK, says his    government helped the Americans in tracking down Bin Laden. He tells BBC    Newsnight:  
_ The Pakistani government was throughout co-operating with the American    intelligence and they had been monitoring his (Bin Laden's) activities, so    did the Americans. And they kept a track of him from Afghanistan into    Waziristan and then into Afghanistan again and then again into north    Waziristan. But when he found that it was becoming difficult for him to keep    on his movements there he moved into this Abbottabad and that is where he    made his mistake._ 
*22.19* The _Telegraph_'s* Peter    Oborne asks*: was bin Laden sheltered by corrupt Pakistani    authorities or lured into a trap?  
_ This is a country where terrorist attacks on the armed forces are, sadly,    routine events. So the military would have been obliged to check out every    single house in the town, especially a big, slightly mysterious and heavily    fortified structure such as the one that hosted al-Qaeda's leader in his    final days. General David Petraeus visited Abbottabad as recently as last    November, when bin Laden was reportedly already present – an event in itself    that would have made a major security search inevitable. That is why so many    are coming to believe the theory that Pakistan's army was complicit in    hiding bin Laden._ 
_Last night, however, a well-placed source with strong links to Pakistan's    security establishment put to me an alternative analysis. He said that bin    Laden had been lured away from his mountain hideout with a promise of total    security – only to be betrayed. This is a very different kind of story,    because it suggests that the ISI and the Pakistani army may have played a    significant part in the operation which brought about bin Laden's death._ 
*22.13* The _Telegraph_'s Tim Ross has *uncovered    full details* of how the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks gave    the US the breakthrough that resulted in the killing of Osama bin Laden.  
__ Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (KSM), who was repeatedly subjected to methods    including “waterboarding” and stress positions, provided the CIA with the    name of bin Laden’s personal courier, according to US officials.  
  A second source – also an al-Qaeda “leader” held at Guantanamo Bay – then    confirmed the courier’s identity, sparking an intense manhunt that resulted    in the dramatic final raid.  
  Secret documents seen by The Daily Telegraph disclose that this second source    – the terrorist operations chief, Abu Faraj al-Libi – played a key role in    finding “safe havens” for bin Laden and lived in the military town where he    was finally found.  
*22.08* Downing Street has just issued a statement following a meeting of    the government's emergency committee, Cobra. It said:  
_ During the meeting the Prime Minister (David Cameron) updated those present on    the full details of the US security operation and reiterated his praise for    the professionalism of the US Special Forces team. The group welcomed the    (US) President's announcement and agreed it was an important step forward in    the fight against terror. The group also discussed the potential impacts of    the incident. They agreed to continue to make every effort to counter    terrorism and extremism._  
*22.02* The_ Daily Telegraph_'s front page also highlights the    ignominy of bin Laden's death as he cowered behind his wife.  

*21.58* The _Daily Express_ has released tomorrow's front page,    leading on bin Laden's cowardice in hiding behind his wife as US forces came    for him.  

*21.49* Reuters has conducted a snap survey to gauge public reaction to    bin Laden's death. Here's the analysis:  
_ The United States made the right decision to kill al Qaeda leader Osama bin    Laden, according to an online poll on Monday that also gives President    Barack Obama a boost._  
_U.S. special forces killed bin Laden in Pakistan Sunday, bringing a    dramatic end to the long manhunt for the man who was the most powerful    symbol of Islamist militancy._  
_Seventy-nine percent who participated in the poll said Washington made the    right decision to kill bin Laden, compared with 14 percent who said no and 7    percent who were not sure._  
_But only 25 percent said they felt safer after the death of the al Qaeda    leader, compared with 59 percent who said they did not._  
_A slim majority of respondents, or 51 percent, said bin Laden's killing had    not changed their perception of Obama's leadership. But 29 percent said it    made them feel more favorable to him and 13 percent said they now feel much    more favorable. Seven percent said the killing made them feel less so._  
*21.44* _The Independent_ is the first British newspaper to release    tomorrow's front page, with a montage of bin Laden's legacy of terror.  
 
*21.38 Nick Clegg, Theresa May* and *George Osborne* were among the    Cabinet ministers pulled into a meeting of the Cobra emergency meeting by *David    Cameron* this evening.  
*21.34* The successful mission to kill bin Laden means that Obama is a    dead cert for reelection in 2012, according to the Economist's *Democracy    in America blog*. The post, headed "What this means for 2012",    begins:  
_ It means Barack Obama is probably getting re-elected. Not just for overseeing    the strike that killed America's most public enemy, but for his unrivalled    poise over these last few weeks, and the moral clarity, confidence and    fairness he showed last night. That will be remembered as a great moment in    presidential leadership. And here we were thinking that the White House    Correspondent's Dinner was going to be the high point of his weekend. How    cool is this president?_  
*21.26* Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America have *released    the following statement* about bin Laden's death.  
_ This is a proud day for America, and especially for every member of IAVA who    has served in Iraq and Afghanistan since 9/11. The IAVA community    congratulates our brave brothers and sisters involved in this historic    operation._  
_We hope this news inspires renewed support and appreciation for the    continuing sacrifice of our troops and veterans. More than 2.2 million    service members have worked toward this day for almost 10 years and they all    deserve praise._ 
*21.17* More details are emerging about a propaganda tape which US    intelligence officials reportedly believe bin Laden recorded shortly before    his death.  
  It is unclear whether the tape is audio or video, but a US official has told    AP that intelligence indicates it is already working its way through    al-Qaida's media pipeline. The official said the timing was coincidental and    there is no indication bin Laden knew forces were bearing down on him.  
  The most recent videotape of bin Laden to date was recorded in October 2004.    The lack of video evidence since then has prompted many to speculate that he    could already be dead.  
  A new recording would provide a final word from the beyond grave for a    terrorist who taunted the US and its allies for years.  
*21.13* The _Telegraph_'s Peter Oborne is on the ground in    Abbottabad. He *sends    this report* on a peaceful garrison town which he calls "Pakistan’s    answer to Aldershot".  
_ Osama bin Laden met his death in the cleanest town I have ever seen in    Pakistan._  
_It was early evening but the time I arrived in Abbottabad after a slow,    winding journey north from Islamabad along the famous Kula Kula highway    which links Pakistan to China._  
_We discretely negotiated several army checkpoints along the way but the    town itself was peaceful._  
_The whole world may be alive with anticipation and excitement as it digests    the news that the biggest manhunt in history has reached its gory    conclusion, but the most important death of the 21st century so far seems to    have made little impact in Abbottabad._  

*21.04* Two Pentagon officials have told AP that bin Laden's burial at    sea was videotaped and that the footage will probably be publicly released    soon.  
  Speaking on condition of anonymity, the officials said photos of the body    prior to its disposal in the North Arabian Sea on Monday also may be    released.  
*20.58* The _Washington Post_'s *Ezra Klein* asks *how    much bin Laden cost the US*.  
_ Even a very partial, very haphazard, tallying of the costs from 9/11 reaches    swiftly into the trillions of dollars. The Afghanistan and Iraq wars,    neither of which would’ve been launched without bin Laden’s provocation,    will cost us a few trillion on their own, actually. But before such    reprisals were even on the table, there was the attack itself, which largely    shut down the American economy for a matter of days, and then slowed it for    weeks._  
*20.57* New York City authorities have determined that a "suspicious    package" found in Times Square is not dangerous after briefly shutting    down a street, Reuters reports.  
*20.56 BREAKING:* A US official has told AP that a new bin Laden tape,    recorded shortly before death, is expected to surface soon.  
*20.54 [at]nihal_gabr*,    in Egypt, is asking the big questions on Twitter.  
_ Now that Bin Laden is dead, can I finally travel with shampoo and hand cream    that is more than 125ml?_ 
*20.51* Facebook has deleted a page - called We are All Osama Bin Ladin -    created by people who hailed the al-Qaeda leader as a "hero" and a "freedom    fighter". The move has been *denounced    by the website Arab Crunch*.  
*20.42* Back here in Britain, *David Cameron* is chairing a meeting    of the government's Cobra emergencies committee.  
  He spoke earlier by telephone with Pakistan's President *Asif Ali Zadari*    and with Afghan President *Hamid Karzai*.  
  "The Prime Minister made clear in the conversations that Britain would    continue to work extremely closely with both Afghanistan and Pakistan to    tackle the terrorist threat from al Qaida and from the Taliban," a No    10 spokesman said.  
  "The Prime Minister also underlined the importance of effective    co-operation between Afghanistan and Pakistan against terrorism and    extremism." 
*20.41* *Carl Levi,* chair of the US Senate Armed Services    Committee, says he believes President Obama will be minded to execute a "robust    reduction" of US troops from Afghanistan this summer as a result of Bin    Laden's death, Reuters reports.  
*20.40 President Obama* will give further details of the mission to    capture or kill bin Laden on camera at 20.15 local time (01.15 GMT) on    Monday.  
*20.39* New York City authorities are investigating a suspicious package    in Times Square, Reuters reports. That is about three miles north of the    World Trade Center site.  
*20.35* The Al-Qaeda terror network is a "mortally wounded tiger"    but remains dangerous, Brennan said.  
_ I think there is always the potential for terrorist groups to try to strike    out and avenge an operation like this._  
_But also I think some of them are asking themselves, you know, 'Bin Laden's    dead.' The Al-Qaeda narrative is becoming increasingly bankrupt._  
_This is a strategic blow to Al-Qaeda. It is a necessary, but not    necessarily sufficient, blow to lead to its demise._  
_But we are determined to destroy it. I think we have a lot better    opportunity now that bin Laden is out of there, to destroy that    organization; create fractures within it._ 
*20.25* The details of bin Laden's capture will harm his credibility    among supporters, Brennan said.  
  “Living in this million dollar plus compound, in an area that is far away from    the front, hiding behind a woman: it really speaks to just how false his    narrative has been over the years,” the US counter-terrorism chief said.  
  He added that a woman “presumed to be bin Laden’s wife” was “positioned in a    way that indicated that she was being used as a human shield, whether bin    Laden or his son put her there, or she put herself there.”  
*20.20* Pakistani authorities scrambled military jets because they were    unaware of the planned raid on bin Laden's compound, but US forces got out    of the country before they engaged, Brennan revealed.  
*20.15* Brennan revealed that there were disagreements in the White House    over whether the raid on bin Laden's suspected compound should go ahead.  
  “The president goes round the room and he wants to hear people’s views. We had    a certain amount of circumstantial evidence and some people felt it was    insufficient to do something like this. There were differences of views, and    that’s what the president wants to know,” he said.  
  He added that by ordering bin Laden’s capture, based only on circumstantial    evidence, Obama had “made what I believe was one of the most gutsiest calls    by any president in living memory.” 

*20.04* The head of US counter-terrorism described unbearably tense    scenes in the White House as the President and his advisors followed the    operation to kill or capture bin Laden in real time.  
_ We were able to monitor in real time the live progress of the operation. It    was probably one of the most anxiety filled periods of time in the lives of    any of the people assembled._  
_The minutes felt like days and the President was very concerned about the    wellbeing of his personnel._  
_It was certainly very tense with a lot of people holding their breath and    there was a lot of silence was we waited for updates.”_ 
  Brennan said there was a “tremendous sense of relief” when the mission was    successfully accomplished. He also revealed that a replica of bin Laden's    compound had been built to allow US forces to conduct drills ahead of the    raid.  
*19.57* Brennan said it was "inconceivable" that bin Laden did    not have a support network in Pakistan.  
_ People are referring to it [bin Laden’s location] as hiding in plain sight.    Pakistan is a large country, but we are looking at how he was able to hide    there for so long._  
_We are talking with the Pakistanis on a regular basis and we are pursuing    all leads to determine what kind of support system and benefactors he may    have had._  
_It is inconceivable that bin Laden did not have a support system in the    country that allowed him to remain there for such a long period of time._  
_I’m not going to speculate on what sort of support he may have had on an    official basis._ 
  But he added that Pakistan is responsbile for killing more terrorists than any    other country and insisted that the US was committed to maintaining its "strategic    relationship" with the country.  
  In initial conversations, the Pakistani authorities appeared "as    surprised as we were" that the al-Qaeda leader was hiding out in    Abbottabad, Brennan said.  
*19.50* Brennan has finished addressing reporters in the White House. He    began by stressing that US forces would have taken bin Laden alive if they    could.  
_ Our goal was to prepare for all contingencies and if we had the opportunity to    take bin Laden alive, if he didn’t pose any threat, then the individuals    involved were ready and able to do that._  
_We had discussed that possibility in the White House, but the concern was    that bin Laden would attempt to evade any capture operation, and indeed he    did. There was a firefight._  
*19.36* The woman used by bin Laden as a human shield during the raid on    his compound was "presumed to be his wife," Brennan says.  
*19.20* More Brennan at briefing: President Obama made one of "the    most gutsiest calls" of any president in giving the go-ahead for the    bin Laden raid.  
  Mr Brennan said bin Laden was hiding behind women, who were used as a human    shield, when he was confronted by US special forces troops. One woman was    killed.  
*19.17* At a White House briefing, head of US counter-terrorism John    Brennan says the special forces would have picked up bin Laden alive if he    had surrendered and offered no threat.  
_ If there was an opportunity to take him alive, we would have done that, he    said._ 
  But Mr Brennan said President Obama was not prepared to risk US casualties.  
  Pressed over how it seems inconceivable that the Pakistani authorities could    not have known that bin Laden was living in their military midst, Mr Brennan    said that the US suspected bin Laden had some kind of support in Pakistan    that allowed him to stay there.  
  But he said the US government was now hoping that the rest of al-Qaeda could    now be buried along with bin Laden.  
*19.05 [at]David    Amber* a Canadian television presenter, reflects on the broadcasting    stumbling blocks that arise when a man called Obama orders the death of a    man called Osama.  
_ I've now heard 3 different network anchors say 'the death of Obama..." -    this is a broadcaster's nightmare_  
*18.53* The _New Yorker_'s *Steve Coll* writes that the *prima    facie evidence suggests that bin Laden was effectively being sheltered* by    the Pakistani state.  
 _It stretches credulity to think that a mansion of that scale could have    been built and occupied by bin Laden for six years without its coming to the    attention of anyone in the Pakistani Army._  
_The initial circumstantial evidence suggests that the opposite is more    likely—that bin Laden was effectively being housed under Pakistani state    control. Pakistan will deny this, it seems safe to predict, and perhaps no    convincing evidence will ever surface to prove the case. If I were a    prosecutor at the United States Department of Justice, however, I would be    tempted to call a grand jury._ 
*18.52* A White House press briefing on the mission to kill bin Laden is    about to begin. We will bring you all the details when it does.  
*18.50 John Kerry*, the Senate Foreign Relations Chair and a former    Democrat presidential candidate, said Mr Obama's decision to sign off on the    mission to kill bin Laden was "gutsy". He added: "A lot of    things could have gone wrong. They didn't." 

*18.46* Despite its location in the affluent suburb of Abbottabad, the* the    compound housing bin Laden was more of a fortress than a home*,    the _Telegraph_'s *Richard Alleyne* reports.  
 _Surrounded by 18ft walls topped by barbed wire, the only access was through    two security gates. Built around five years ago at an estimated cost of    £600,000, its accommodation block is three storey's tall._  
_Such is the emphasis on privacy that even the third-floor terrace is    shielded by a seven-foot wall. Inside officials said the house was sectioned    up – and may have even been designed to hide a secret home within a home._ 
*18.40 Michael Bloomberg*, the Mayor of New York, tells a press    conference that the city remains a top terror target and bin Laden's death    won't change that. "The forces of freedom and justice have once again    prevailed over those who use terror to pursue tyranny," he adds.  
*18.30* Pakistan's leaders are under growing pressure to dispel    allegations that they knew where bin Laden was hiding.* Joseph Lieberman*,    chairman of the US Senate Homeland Security Committee, said at a news    conference that Pakistan must "basically prove to us that they didn't    know that bin Laden was there".  
*18.20* *Benjamin Netanyahu*, the Israeli prime minister, personally    congratulated President Obama on the killing of bin Laden in a phone    conversation today. A statement from Netanyahu's office said he had "praised    the United States on behalf of Israeli citizens for the successful mission    and the killing of Osama bin Laden".  
*18.10 Hillary Clinton* has moved to quash accusations that Pakistani    authorities knew bin Laden's whereabouts, telling reporters that the    country's counter-terrorism officials helped lead the US to his compound.  
  Speaking at the State Department on Monday, the US Secretary of State thanked    Pakistan for its cooperation and said that country "has contributed    greatly to our efforts to dismantle al-Qaida." She said that "in    fact, cooperation with Pakistan helped lead us to bin Laden and the compound    in which he was hiding."  
*17.55* Osama bin Laden's former sister-in-law tells AP he would have    wanted to die "rather than face justice in an American court." 
  Swiss-born *Carmen Binladin*, who separated from Osama's older brother    Yeslam more than 20 years ago, says she believes believes the al-Qaeda    leader had powerful supporters who protected and funded him up until the    end, adding that his family in Saudi Arabia will have received the news of    his death with "a great sense of sadness." 
*17.45* The _Telegraph_'s *Tim Ross* is still trawling through    leaked US documents on Osama Bin Laden and has discovered *a    diplomatic cable* which alleges that Pakistani security forces helped    him evade American troops for almost 10 years.  
  American diplomats were told by the government of Tajikistan that *one    of the key reasons why they had failed to find bin Laden* was that    Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate tipped him off whenever    US troops approached.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...lled-live.html

----------


## CaptainNemo

> One for the Americans...


One for the Brits

SAS hit by recruitment crisis as chiefs warn of overstretched resources - The Daily Record

Perhaps the dumping at sea is a cover story for them feeding him to starving pigs on a pire of holy jazz mags?




> President Obama, Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden watch the attack on bin Laden unfold via live video feed in the White House


Looks more like they're watching Bill and Monica.  :Smile:

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## rickschoppers

> How long before someone makes a movie about the events of Osama's death?


Didn't take long at all...

Osama bin Laden: What does the killing of Osama bin Laden do to Hollywood's movie options? - latimes.com

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## FarangRed

*Just on the news now. Apparently, Bin Laden is still dead.*

----------


## superman

www.gopfun.com



> Originally Posted by Thormaturge
> 
> 
> One for the Americans...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is the reference over the word "SEALS" in the photo? I can't read it here.
> ...

----------


## Thormaturge

The latest confirmed sighting...

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## FarangRed

GhostOsama on Twitter:

"Well this sucks...I accidentally enabled location on my tweets."
"Obama is using my death to assure his re election."
"Was just granted my 72 virgins, YES!"

----------


## Cujo

* 				Osama bin Laden dead – but no body. Now for an explosion of conspiracy theories			*


  		 			 			 				 					By Damian Thompson World 					Last updated:  May 2nd, 2011
508 Comments Comment on this article 

Conspiracy theorists will say bin Laden is alive

 No body. No photograph or DNA evidence – at least, not yet. [*Update*: The White House now says there was a DNA match between the body and tissue taken from bin Laden's dead sister's brain.]  Conspiracy theorists are an ingenious bunch, but at the moment the  White House is making this ridiculously easy for them. Gideon Rachman  says he gives it 24 hours before conspiracy theories about Osama bin Laden begin circulating, but they are already flowing vigorously. The Taliban says he’s still alive, for example.
 The Islamic world is amazingly receptive to what I call “counterknowledge”. Let’s start by reminding ourselves that _most_  people in Muslim countries have their doubts about 9/11, and millions  them believe unquestioningly that it was plotted by the CIA. One of the  most important features of what sociologists call the cultic milieu is  that political and religious extremists happily exchange conspiracy  theories, irrespective of their origin. We’ve seen this in the  popularity of the far-Right Russian _Protocols of the Elders of Zion_  in the Arab world. We’ve also seen young, Left-wing disciples of Noam  Chomsky and Michael Moore happily draw on 9/11 “truther” theories  constructed in the American fascist underground.
 Sir Christopher Meyer, our former Ambassador to the Washington, said this in response today’s news: “I  can’t conceive the US president would go out to make a statement to the  world that Bin Laden is dead without being able to produce evidence  that he is dead. I think we will see some evidence – DNA or photographic  – to prove there is not still some phantom Osama bin Laden riding the  Tora Bora mountains.”
 Spot on. It’s inconceivable that America would announce the death of  its deadliest enemy without offering evidence that would convince any  reasonable person; I’m surprised that it hasn’t been produced already.  Moreover, why did it allow bin Laden’s body to be dropped into the sea? Is the US really so sensitive to Islamic burial practices that it is prepared to hand conspiracy theorists such a gift?
 The death of bin Laden is something in which President Barack Obama  can take pride, and I have no doubt that it will benefit him  politically. But the American Right is in a strange mood at the moment,  as its obsession with Obama’s birth certificate demonstrated. That  particular controversy boiled on for years, thanks to the President’s  odd reluctance to publish the relevant documents until last week. He can  afford no such delay when it comes to proof of the death of Osama bin  Laden.
Osama bin Laden dead – but no body. Now for an explosion of conspiracy theories – Telegraph Blogs








*Al-Qaeda: The next generation* 

* As America celebrates the death of its greatest foe, a younger cadre is ready    to direct jihad against the West – including one whose real name no one    knows. By our Diplomatic Editor Praveen Swami.  * 

 									 									 										 											An al-Qaeda training camp outside Mogadishu, Somalia. Jihadists are expected to wage a long war of attrition against the West  Photo: AP 








 	 		By Praveen Swami 				 				8:52PM BST 02 May 2011 		 		 				23 Comments 


 	 History," wrote Abdullah Azzam, Osama bin  Laden's mentor, "does not write its lines except with blood… Glory does  not build its lofty edifice except with skulls; honour and respect  cannot be established except on a foundation of cripples and corpses."  Osama bin Laden has become one of those corpses. But even as America  celebrates the death of the man who more than any other came to  represent evil in our time, there is little reason for jubilation.

The  stark truth is this: a decade after 9/11, the jihadist movement is more  powerful than at any time in the past. Bin Laden himself, the scholar  C. Christine Fair has noted, has emerged as a "kind of Che Guevara of  the jihadist movement" – an inspirational icon who could fire the  imagination of young recruits. Bin Laden's death – or, to the faithful,  his martyrdom – might prove to be his last service for his macabre  cause.

In 2001, on the eve of 9/11,  al-Qaeda had a core of just less than 200 cadre – 120 of them in a crack  fighting unit. Perhaps 1,000 men had graduated from its Afghan training  camps, but they were riven by ideological dissension. Now, jihadist  groups that associate themselves with al-Qaeda's project are asserting  influence from eastern China and central Asia to the furthest reaches of  North Africa. The war against terror has thus seen al-Qaeda flower, not  die.

For years before 9/11, bin  Laden had sought to become the principal leader of the jihadist movement  by developing loose alliances with ideologically affiliated  organisations – alliances that were built around personal relationships  and cemented with his own cash. Both ambition and pragmatism underpinned  this strategy. In 1996, when international pressure led Sudan to expel  the jihadist leader, his following numbered just 30. He had resources,  but had demonstrated little organisational genius, and nor had he  authored a corpus of original doctrinal thought that would draw  followers. He compensated for this by drawing media attention and  authorising spectacular attacks. In 1998, soon after declaring war  against the United States, he set up the World Islamic Front for Jihad  Against the Crusaders and the Jews. Soon after, al-Qaeda bombed the  United States embassies in Kenya and Tanzania.

Even  then, bin Laden did not acquire the status he craved: bar the Egyptian  Ayman al-Zawahiri, few proved willing to suborn themselves to his  authority. In Afghanistan, Ali Mohamed al-Fakheri and Zayn al-Abidin  Muhammad Husayn stonewalled his attempts to exercise control over  training camps set up for Arab Mujahideen. Syrian-born Spanish national  Mustafa Sett Mariam Nasar, considered by many to be the foremost  Islamist ideologue of his generation, also chose not to recognise bin  Laden's authority. The Iraqi jihadist Ahmad Fadeel al-Nazal – aka Abu  Musaab al-Zarqawi – was willing to use bin Laden's resources to train  men, but did not acknowledge his leadership. Even Mullah Muhammad Omar,  the Taliban's supreme leader, refused to give charge of all foreign  fighters in Afghanistan to bin Laden.
Al-Qaeda: The next generation - Telegraph

----------


## Lambik

Osama Bin Laden is not dead!!

Also :

"Elvis Presley is not dead"  Elvis Presley is not dead., page 1
and :
"Absolute fact that Adolf Hitler *DID NOT COMMIT SUICIDE!*"
The true facts surrounding the fake suicide of Adolf Hitler.

But :

Paul McCartney is dead :

*"Undeniable Proof that Paul McCartney was replaced with a Look-Alike"
Paul Really Is Dead: Part 1 of Facial Comparison: Getting A Reference.
*

----------


## Lantern

How long before we hear of Eltons song "Sandles in the Bin"

Seriously though, it all seems a bit suspect to me. Wonder if we will ever know the whole truth.

----------


## Seekingasylum

> the IRA was technically freedom fighters, weren't they ?


No Butterfly, they were not. Their propaganda would have you believe so but only fatuous Americans celebrating their bogus heritage and vapid Belgian transgenders fell for it.

The IRA was, and is, a sophisticated criminal terrorist organisation economically entrenched in the Irish body politic. Nobody, but nobody, sells contraband goods, illicit drugs, prostitutes, tenders for contracts or operates a public transport company in West Belfast or South Armagh or Londonderry without their say so.

----------


## HermantheGerman

American politicians love Conspiracy ! That's why they hate Wikileaks. Gives them NO room for propaganda.

The show must go on !

----------


## robuzo

I think it is clear what happened. Three years after successfully installing the Kenyan in Chief in the White House, the International Islamic Soshulist Conspiracy finally decided that OBL had outgrown his usefulness. Wake up people!

----------


## harrybarracuda

> www.gopfun.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by ceburat
> 
> 
> ...


Do you want the one where they balance a ball on their noses and clap their hands together?

Did anyone notice any of these Navy Seals missing from Pattaya over the weekend, surely one of them must have been involved.

----------


## robuzo

^A Navy Seal could swim to Pakistan on Friday morning and be back in time for happy hour on Soi 8 that night. It's a fact.

----------


## Seekingasylum

Anyone who actually believes OBL wasn't killed the other night may well be interested in my timeshare development down in Yala.

Get in now, on the ground floor so to speak, and not only will you realise a yoy appreciation of at least 30% in your asset value but I can personally guarantee a rental return of 18%, forever and forever. It's called Fool's Paradise and nestles between paradisial beaches and verdant tropical splendour - see our artful computer generated images at fuckwitzrus.co.lalaland.

Should you be in any doubt as to the credibility of these claims please do not hesitate to contact our consultant real estate brokers, Messrs Dewey, Cheetham & Howe. who will be only too happy to tell you anything you want to hear.

I'm sure you won't be disappointed.

----------


## shadow role

already retraction of the 'human shield' spin on one woman taken out.Who will be Americas new bogeyman...Saddam,Osama executed....next up?

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## superman

Something I don't understand and that is they said they'd checked his DNA and it was him. The quickest they can do the test is 3-5 days isn't it ?

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## robuzo

> already retraction of the 'human shield' spin on one woman taken out.Who will be Americas new bogeyman...Saddam,Osama executed....next up?


How to choose? If Trump's presidential bid doesn't work out he could inaugurate a new series: The Apprentice: Bogeyman Edition. Contestants compete to demonstrate their competence in a a variety of categories of un-Americanness, chosen of course by the most red-blooded, true-blue American of all, The Donald himself.

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## good2bhappy

> Something I don't understand and that is they said they'd checked his DNA and it was him. The quickest they can do the test is 3-5 days isn't it ?


I am reading this too

----------


## koman

CIA commander to Navy Seals unit;  "Your primary objective is to capture or kill Usama Bin Laden."

"Your secondary, but equally important objective is to provide absolute proof of his death or capture to the guys on Teakdoor.   If you fail to do this within 48 hours the mission will be considered a failure"

"Any questions?"        "Good let's go"

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Anyone who actually believes OBL wasn't killed the other night may well be interested in my timeshare development down in Yala.


It is possible to believe that he was killed, but not believe that they buried him at sea. 

(How long did the USSR keep Hitler's burnt corpse - 50 years its said.)

I don't think they would sling the corpse of the Century in the ocean, simply to avoid offending people. (As OBL would himself point out, he'd find that shooting him in the head in his pyjamas is more offensive than burying him at sea).

So if they lied about the burial at sea, (perhaps he's in a freezer in that Raiders of the Lost Ark warehouse), what else is not being revealed or spindoctored?

As for that helmet-cam. There is no way that this footage can stay under wraps.

----------


## superman

> How long did the USSR keep Hitler's burnt corpse - 50 years its said.)


They didn't. When it was tested recently, it was found to be that of a woman. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...-a-womans.html

----------


## buriramboy

> Originally Posted by The_Ghost_Of_The_Moog
> 
> How long did the USSR keep Hitler's burnt corpse - 50 years its said.)
> 
> 
> They didn't. When it was tested recently, it was found to be that of a woman. Adolf Hitler suicide story questioned after tests reveal skull is a woman's - Telegraph


Hitler was a woman?? What a bitch she turned out to be......

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by superman
> 
> Something I don't understand and that is they said they'd checked his DNA and it was him. The quickest they can do the test is 3-5 days isn't it ?
> 
> 
> I am reading this too


I think that's when there is billing, legal documentation and shipment involved....

 :mid:

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Originally Posted by The_Ghost_Of_The_Moog
> 
> How long did the USSR keep Hitler's burnt corpse - 50 years its said.)
> 
> 
> They didn't. When it was tested recently, it was found to be that of a woman.


Fine  - but that still shows they kept some charred steak that they thought was Adolph.

Ditto with Osama. I'm not saying you stuff him and put it on display at the Smithsonian, but you just don't bury the corpse in order not to offend people. Osama has forfeited that right, given how many people he has offended. 

You might say you have disposed of the body, and then keep the corpse up your sleeve, but in such a way that a backpedalling can be done when Donald Trump insists on seeing the body.

Harder to do that if he's in the Ocean.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by superman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by The_Ghost_Of_The_Moog
> ...


Let's face it, no-one wanted the corpse, especially Saudi Arabia. Dumping it in the world's biggest skip sends the right kind of message as far as I'm concerned.

By the way, here's the DNA procedure (edited by me):
DNA is extracted from the sample and purified.The  extracted DNA is added to a special chemical mix for the Polymerase  Chain Reaction (PCR), a process that targets 16 specific locations in  the DNA (called loci) and makes billions of copies of each location.The products of PCR are analyzed to create a DNA profile, a genetic equivalent of a fingerprint for each tested party.The subject’s DNA profile is compared with the comparison samples (in this case, the sister I believe), and  statistical analysis is performed to determine the familial relationship.Not more than a few hours of cooking there if you have all the other information handy.

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## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Let's face it, no-one wanted the corpse, especially Saudi Arabia. Dumping it in the world's biggest skip sends the right kind of message as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> .


They should stick it next to the alien body and the Holy Grail in that big Indiana Jones warehouse then.

Bureaucracies never chuck stuff away.

----------


## good2bhappy

I have an uneasy feeling that this sea burial may come back to haunt the US

----------


## Airportwo

Someone else's view:-

*Now children, are you sitting comfortably? Then your  government will begin. Once upon a time there were three little pigs and  they all sprouted wings. One little pig did not have a birth  certificate so they faked one very badly so he could say he was the Big  Pig and live with his snout in a trough in his little, well, not so  little, white house.*
*One day Big Pig, who was really only doing what he was told  to save his bacon, announced that a naughty man who had died a long time  ago had died again. The naughty man was very clever to do this, but he  was well known for his little tricks. For years after he died the first  time he still managed to speak on new videos and tell the people just  how naughty he was.*
*Then another little pig said that the naughty man had been  thrown into the sea and so the people could not see his face and know  that the Big Pig was telling the truth. But everyone with a brain knew  that the Big Pig never told the truth and so they knew that Big Pig was  telling more porkies.*
*Big Pig and the little pigs showed the people a picture that  was made up to fool lots of them, and, unfortunately, children, this was  usually not very difficult to do.*
*The End.*

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> I have an uneasy feeling that this sea burial may come back to haunt the US


They will need to 'retrieve it by submarine' (mindful that it really isn't in the sea), because nobody is ever going to shut up about this conspiracy theory. This will grow and grow. 

And obviously they can't admit it is in the freezer in the White House, because then the President is caught lying.

----------


## superman

Is burial at sea permissable for a muslim ? Some say not. Osama bin Laden buried at sea - was it proper? No, say Muslim scholars

----------


## Cujo

Has anyone discovered the google earth co-ordinates for the compaound yet?
I found the suburb but can't locate that compound yet.

----------


## superman

anyone know the coordinates of Bin Ladens compound ?_

----------


## TafkaB

So just catching up today, is there any pic of the body yet?

Seems like the only photo we have been offered so far is the one of Obama and his crew supposedly watching Osama die.

----------


## crippen



----------


## Butterfly

this is fucking hilarious, they should make a movie about the cover-up, far more interesting than the actual killing

----------


## Marmite the Dog

> A Navy Seal could swim to Pakistan on Friday morning and be back in time for happy hour on Soi 8 that night. It's a fact.


Just wannabe SAS, but they're too meat-headed to qualify.

----------


## Butterfly

> Seems like the only photo we have been offered so far is the one of Obama and his crew supposedly watching Osama die.


he was probably lying in his bed with all kind of medical equipment around,

quite cowardly of Americans to assassinate him like that when they could have brought him back alive and then shoot him in public on ground zero, now that would have been spectacular and they could have sold tickets for the events

----------


## Thormaturge

> Do you want the one where they balance a ball on their noses and clap their hands together?


How about a picture of their last meal before leaving for Pakistan?

----------


## Butterfly

> And obviously they can't admit it is in the freezer in the White House, because then the President is caught lying.


a more proper burial could have been Ground Zero, what an opportunity missed

----------


## good2bhappy

Who purchased the plot of land?
Who authorised the construction of the compound?

----------


## amazon777

And here comes the movie:

From SMH

Makers of Hurt Locker plan bin Laden film

----------


## OhOh

> For all you skeptics and conspiracy freaks, it will be interesting to see what shakes out of the trees in a month or so. I have listed a few names below and since this thread will last quite awhile, I would like to see what each of you have to say once most of the facts (or nonfacts) come out. You all know my take on this event and I am hanging myself out there if I am wrong. So here is your chance:
> 
> socal
> Butterfly
> khmen
> TafkaB
> Thormaturge
> Airportwo
> ENT
> ...


You don't need to wait.

The lynch mob and posse have already performed their "wild west" justice. The civilised world has moved on from this necessity. the human rights of an individual has been recognised for many decades.

"An eye for an Eye" was dismissed by civilised people some centuries ago, except it seems in the US

----------


## OhOh

> The Iranian regime today reported that Osama Bin Laden was killed out  of fear that he would leak information on joint US-Al Qaeda terror  operations.
> 
> Fars News reported:
> 
> "US has killed the Al-Qaeda leader, Osama Bin Laden, in a  bid to prevent any possible leakage of intelligence and information  about the US-Al-Qaeda joint terrorist operations, a senior Iranian  legislator underscored on Monday.
>  The West was fully satisfied with bin Ladens performance during the  past years and today it was obliged to kill him to prevent possible  leakage of the priceless intelligence that he had, member of the  parliaments National Security and Foreign Policy Commission Javad  Jahangirzadeh told FNA on Monday. 
>  He mentioned that the West seeks to rebuild its damaged face in the  international community, and reiterated that Bin Ladens survival could  endanger the interests of the western countries and disclose their past  and future clandestine operations. 
>  Jahangirzadeh warned the world countries that the West has hatched a  new plot to find new pretexts for invading and occupying the Muslim  countries." 
> 
> ...


You seem to think that there is not truth in the statement. Have you a court transcript where this view has been tested?

----------


## misskit

> Who purchased the plot of land? Who authorised the construction of the compound?



Would be interesting to find this information. Who was protecting Usama in Pakistan and why?

----------


## Seekingasylum

> Muslim scholars


Now there's an oxymoron for you.

----------


## good2bhappy

^ LOL
If it wasn't for Muslim scholars there would have been no renaissance

----------


## Seekingasylum

> Originally Posted by The_Ghost_Of_The_Moog
> 
> And obviously they can't admit it is in the freezer in the White House, because then the President is caught lying.
> 
> 
> a more proper burial could have been Ground Zero, what an opportunity missed


Mmm... and just how many jocks do you think would be queueing up at night to take a piss?

Or perhaps you mean he could have been deposited under the foundation stone of the new building bearing a plaque inscribed " here lies Usama Bin Laden who made all this possibe " ? Yeah, sure, I'd love to go up and down those elevators happy in the knowledge I was in the safest building in the world.......

Stick to your day job, Butterfly.

----------


## OhOh

If it is true that there was a Pakistani military compound very close why did the probable defence forces, of the compound, not attack the invasion force?

What do the Pakistani government have to say about the invasion of their country?

The only "external" evidence I have seen appears to be a "tweet" from a person. Has apple got the co-ordinates of the cell phone during the raid.

----------


## Hampsha

How will this change the world? Will it at all?

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Mmm... and just how many jocks do you think would be queueing up at night to take a piss?


You don't need a grave for that. A simple effigy or statue will work just as well. Some enterprising American sculptor will do just that, and charge a quarter to weewee on it.

Or transfers of his post mortem picture that you can stick on a urinal.

The person who thinks of Osama death-wee accessories is going to make a lot of money.

----------


## Seekingasylum

^^^Are you stupid?

The military compound was an officer training school. What defences do you think Sandhurst or Westpoint has? 

What do you mean invaded?? FFS, the Paki army et al is funded by the USofA.

Don't you read anything?

----------


## Thormaturge

i am always happy to subscribe to the concept of great things happening as a consequence of one person standing on the shoulders of giants, but to suggest Bush, who was clearly nonplussed...for a full seven minutes..when told of the first plane crashing into the WTC, had any idea what to do about binladen is an insut t othe current administration.

 Bush had several chances to kill binLaden and fluffed it.

 Obama's decision was huge.  All credit to him.  I'm actually beginning to see him as a leader.

----------


## Seekingasylum

> How will this change the world? Will it at all?


Certainly did for Bin Laden.

----------


## Thormaturge

> How will this change the world? Will it at all?


I can now grow a beard without having to worry about a drone attack.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Obama's decision was huge.  All credit to him.  I'm actually beginning to see him as a leader.


Listening to Obama's speech and his self-apportionment of credit, I think thats precisely how he would like us to see him.

----------


## superman

> How will this change the world?


You can now go on trecking holidays in the Tora Bora mountains again without getting carpet bombed.

----------


## Cujo

> "An eye for an Eye" was dismissed by civilised people some centuries ago,


What makes you think that?

----------


## misskit

> Obama's decision was huge. All credit to him. I'm actually beginning to see him as a leader.


Has changed my opinion of Obama as well. I was thinking he was some sort of a pacifist who got saddled with a war. Now I can see how capable he is.

----------


## Cujo

> What do the Pakistani government have to say about the invasion of their country?


Invasion? 3 helicopters, in and out in 40 minutes.
The operation was launched from within Pakistan.
And all else aside, who gives a fuck what the two faced paki assholes think.

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by Thormaturge
> 
> 
> Obama's decision was huge. All credit to him. I'm actually beginning to see him as a leader.
> 
> 
> Listening to Obama's speech and his self-apportionment of credit, I think thats precisely how he would like us to see him.


 A good leader does not take credit for the glory, but rather it is reflection of the combined efforts of the people beneath him.

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by Thormaturge
> 
> Obama's decision was huge. All credit to him. I'm actually beginning to see him as a leader.
> 
> 
> Has changed my opinion of Obama as well. I was thinking he was some sort of a pacifist who got saddled with a war. Now I can see how capable he is.


 All it took was a Yes or a No. The boys took care of the rest. What is so impressive about that?

----------


## misskit

> All it took was a Yes or a No. The boys took care of the rest. What is so impressive about that?


He is the Commander in Chief of the military and made a yes decision instead of a no.

How about if he were any one other than Obama? Would you poo poo his decision if he were, say, Bush? Or would you go out, wave a flag all gung-ho and praise his toughness?

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> He is the Commander in Chief of the military and made a yes decision instead of a no.


"Shall we try to catch him....no guarantees? But no downside if we don't"

_"Um, maybe, ......ok, yeah, go on then."_

"A brave decision Mr President. You're such a warrior."

_"USA USA USA"_

"Yes Mr President"

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by The_Ghost_Of_The_Moog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Thormaturge
> ...


One decision does not make a leader; although it's a start.   Obama was handed this on a plate. He made a very good decision but in many ways it was made for him...he just had to nod his head.  Jimmy Carter made a similar decision, it's just that the military operation ran into a bit of trouble.  He might have been a big national hero if it had not.  Sometimes you get unlucky with this kind of thing. 

Obama got lucky and everything went according to plan.  Listening to his speech after the event, I thought that he had planned and executed the whole thing by himself...with a bit of incidental help form the military and CIA.  What an ego tripper that guy is... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

The SEAL operation was awesome.....too bad about loosing the helicopter,  but I'm sure they will give them a new one.

----------


## misskit

> I thought that he had planned and executed the whole thing by himself


LOL. I didn't hear the speech.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> I thought that he had planned and executed the whole thing by himself
> 
> 
> LOL. I didn't hear the speech.


You should check it out. It really is remarkably immodest.

----------


## harrybarracuda

I don't wish to piss on the strawberries of our "U-S-A! U-S-A!" chanting chimps, but if you wanted a few weeks to extract meaningful information from a chief Al Qaeda leader without interruption, then saying he's pushing up the coral is a really fucking clever cover story, ennit?

My guess is he's in a cellar in Kabul with a bag over his head.

 :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by misskit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by koman
> ...


Why shouldn't he blow his own trumpet? He said that when he came in he asked them to make finding this muppet their number one target.

At least he makes his own decisions, unlike that feeble daddy's boy GW.

----------


## FailSafe

> My guess is he's in a cellar in Kabul with a bag over his head.


Maybe, but that would mean one of his wives was coerced to lie (she apparently identified his body, at least according to CNN)- that's pretty unlikely.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Why shouldn't he blow his own trumpet? He said that when he came in he asked them to make finding this muppet their number one target.


Because he is going to get caught and ententacled in conspiracy theories (such as the far-fetched  'burial at sea'), and his barging into the middle of the victory celebrations is going to make it accordingly a lot harder for him to claim plausible deniability if spindoctoring is present.

You yourself said he may not be dead, Harry.

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by Carrabow
> 
> All it took was a Yes or a No. The boys took care of the rest. What is so impressive about that?
> 
> 
> He is the Commander in Chief of the military and made a yes decision instead of a no.
> 
> How about if he were any one other than Obama? Would you poo poo his decision if he were, say, Bush? Or would you go out, wave a flag all gung-ho and praise his toughness?


I would like him to make more choices like this, but I have a feeling it is only when it makes HIM look good.

----------


## Mid

can any of you conspiracy theorists riddle me why America would willingly open it's self to the obvious threat of retaliation IF the death isn't true ?  :mid:

----------


## good2bhappy

Why did they shoot him twice 
surely alive would have been more useful vis a vis the war against terror
the info he had

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> can any of you conspiracy theorists riddle me why America would willingly open it's self to the obvious threat of retaliation IF the death isn't true ?


Retaliation is not a threat, surely its a presumption.

I personally think he is dead, but there are enough incongruous claims in the President's boastful speech as to mean that the only way there will be a resolution is to

a) Show the helmet-cam footage.
b) Dredge up the body.

Because every person who has been affected by the war on terrorism expects a proper denouement here, not just a DNA swab and the body quickly dropped under 100 fathoms - merely to keep Muslims happy. 

If the USA is interested in keeping Muslims happy there are many other ways ofd  doing so.

----------


## Boon Mee

*Texas Lawmakers Give Navy SEAL Team 6 Standing Ovation*



But Obama bravely played _only_ nine holes of golf on Sunday and told a bunch of jokes at the White House Corespondent Dinner, wheres his standing ovation?

Honoring Sundays U.S. military operation that killed terrorist  leader Osama Bin Laden with tears, words and applause, the Texas Senate  this morning gave a lengthy standing ovation to those who carried out  the successful strike in Pakistan.Applauding with the rest his  colleagues was state Sen. Brian Birdwell, R-Granbury, who was critically  injured when one of the terrorists planed crashed into the Pentagon in  Washington.
More than 3,000 people died in the Sept. 11, 2001  terrorist attacks, including strikes on the Pentagon and the World Trade  Center towers in New York.
Following a brief, emotional speech to  a silent and somber Senate Chamber, Birdwell led the Senate in the  Pledge of Allegiance. Several senators and spectators dabbed tears from  their eyes.

Austin news, sports, weather, Longhorns, business | Statesman.com

----------


## Marmite the Dog

> Several senators and spectators dabbed tears from their eyes.


Oh dear.

----------


## sabang

> the info he had


Actually they retrieved a potential gold mine of information from his computers, which were seized and are now being examined in Afghanistan. 

*Osama bin Laden raid yields trove of computer data*
Read more: Osama bin Laden raid yields trove of computer data - Mike Allen - POLITICO.com


Whilst nobody can rule out the possibility of 'retribution' killings & atrocities, personally I doubt we will see any beyond perhaps one or two small incidents. AQ had already largely been smashed actually, as a coherent organisation. It had also largely lost the battle of 'hearts and minds' in the Islamic world- witness how few demonstrations etc there have been since bin Liners slaying. So while the snaring of OBL was important, and a major morale booster, this was not for 'operational' reasons as such.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> Several senators and spectators dabbed tears from their eyes.
> 
> 
> Oh dear.


I am reminded of that woman watching the 2 inch tsunami stroll up a peaceful river behind her, who couldn't talk because she was "too emotional", dabbing the tears of anguish away.

*retch* *gag*

----------


## harrybarracuda

> “They cleaned it out,” one official said. “Can you imagine what’s on Osama bin Laden’s hard drive?”


- Kiddie porn
- Animal porn
- Justin Bieber photos (see above)
- Angry Birds for windows

to name but a few.

----------


## Thormaturge

> Osama bin Laden raid yields trove of computer data


Sadly it is mostly porn.

----------


## Lambik

It's a miracle,  not the DEVGRU

 "LIMA, Peru - Peruvian President Alan Garcia said Pope John Paul II should get credit for the death of Osama bin Laden.
The  late pope was beatified on Sunday and Garcia said: "His first miracle  was to remove from the world the incarnation of evil, the demonic  incarnation of crime and hatred, giving us the news that the person who  blew up towers and buildings is no longer."
Peru leader credits late pope for bin Laden death - CBS News

----------


## Thormaturge

^
Great idea, get the Catholics and the Muslims at each other's throats.

----------


## good2bhappy

The 12-year-old daughter of Bin Laden is now in Pakistani custody, says the BBC's Owen Bennett-Jones: "There were quite a few women and children in the compound who had their arms tied [during the raid] and they believe they would have been taken away by the US military had the second helicopter not gone down. The daughter who survived said she saw her father shot by the Americans."

----------


## Mid

> The 12-year-old daughter of Bin Laden is now in Pakistani custody


BBC News - LIVE: Osama Bin Laden dead

----------


## Butterfly

> Several senators and spectators dabbed tears from their eyes.


hilarious,

----------


## koman

> It's a miracle,  not the DEVGRU
> 
>  "LIMA, Peru - Peruvian President Alan Garcia said Pope John Paul II should get credit for the death of Osama bin Laden.
> The  late pope was beatified on Sunday and Garcia said: "His first miracle  was to remove from the world the incarnation of evil, the demonic  incarnation of crime and hatred, giving us the news that the person who  blew up towers and buildings is no longer."
> Peru leader credits late pope for bin Laden death - CBS News


They need another "miracle" to make him a full saint apparently.  If they can make a connection, he's gonna get promoted for sure... :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by Lambik
> 
> 
> It's a miracle,  not the DEVGRU
> 
>  "LIMA, Peru - Peruvian President Alan Garcia said Pope John Paul II should get credit for the death of Osama bin Laden.
> The  late pope was beatified on Sunday and Garcia said: "His first miracle  was to remove from the world the incarnation of evil, the demonic  incarnation of crime and hatred, giving us the news that the person who  blew up towers and buildings is no longer."
> Peru leader credits late pope for bin Laden death - CBS News
> 
> ...


Poor bastard, if they keep digging him up, he's going to wish he'd upset the merkins too. At least OBL is unlikely to be exhumed in a hurry.

----------


## Butterfly

Osama will walk again in 3 days, mark my words  :Razz:

----------


## xanax

> Why did they shoot him twice 
> surely alive would have been more useful vis a vis the war against terror
> the info he had


Unlikely he would have coughed up, and torture would not be possible due to all the bleeding hearts out there. Shooting twice is standard as I believe head wounds are not always fatal, far better to just get rid of and dump him in the sea, hopefully shark infested.

----------


## Johnny Longprong

I suppose all this puts paid to my theory that he was running a Kebab shop in Auburn, NSW Australia?

----------


## koman

> Osama will walk again in 3 days, mark my words


Float maybe, but I doubt if he will walk.  I hope they had the good sense to put some weights on him...can you imagine if he washed up on a beach somewhere.... :Smile:

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

One point that hasn't been mentioned yet is that Obama's speech cut into Donald Trump's Celebrity Apprentice show.

----------


## Mid

Trump is so far out of his depth it's ridiculous .

Handed Obama a  _Lay Down Misere_ on the birth certificate deal and wants to get his fingers on the button

 :rofl:

----------


## Carrabow

> Why did they shoot him twice 
> surely alive would have been more useful vis a vis the war against terror
> the info he had


The CIA could really use some much needed interrogation techniques training especially after all the attention Gitmo has been given.  :mid: 

I dont think they will get many complaints...

----------


## escaped

Ok,they are searching for the worlds number one enemy for 10 years.

Then when they claim to have found and killed him they dumb his body in the sea instead of showing their trophy to the world.
Give me a break   :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl: 

Even a 5 year old sees through this bullshit story

----------


## Seekingasylum

So says a 4 year old.

----------


## noelbino

> Ok,they are searching for the worlds number one enemy for 10 years.
> 
> Then when they claim to have found and killed him they dumb his body in the sea instead of showing their trophy to the world.
> Give me a break  
> 
> Even a 5 year old sees through this bullshit story


YEs!! And the world is flat, the sun spins around the earth and Thailand will win the next world cup.

----------


## escaped

> So says a 4 year old.


Think you should read the comments on the American news sites.

If you had a trophy which made you world famous,would you destroy all evidence in the shortest possible time?

----------


## Cujo

got to admit they did ditch the body pretty quickly and secretively.

----------


## raycarey

> Ok,they are searching for the worlds number one enemy for 10 years.  Then when they claim to have found and killed him they dumb his body in the sea instead of showing their trophy to the world. Give me a break  Even a 5 year old sees through this bullshit story





> If you had a trophy which made you world famous,would you destroy all evidence in the shortest possible time?


you conspiracy nuts just don't quit, do you?

have you forgotten what happened when the video surfaced of saddam's hanging? it inflamed an already tense situation and helped to make him more of a martyr in certain circles.

if photographs or video exists, i hope they don't release it.

btw, i think it's time to adjust your tinfoil hat.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> you conspiracy nuts just don't quit, do you?
> .


No conspiracy theory. Simply that they have the footage. So I demand to see it. 

I have been kept waiting at airports. My taxpayer money pays for all these shenanigans - like Abu Ghraib torturers.

So I'm afraid I must insist.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> have you forgotten what happened when the video surfaced of saddam's hanging? it inflamed an already tense situation and helped to make him more of a martyr in certain circles.


I don't think there's a comparison here. What did the damage was the filthy persians around him insulting him as he was hanged. This is what outraged his supporters.

I don't think proving you killed Osama would enrage his followers any more than it already has, or in fact any more than not giving him the traditional islamic burial has pissed a lot of people off.

No, something stinks in the state of Washington. Let's wait for the expected release of the video (that is when they've finished making it).

----------


## raycarey

> FOXNEWS Breaking news: 
> 
> Obama Administration Kills Religious Man with Kidney Disease!


.....

----------


## raycarey

> No, something stinks in the state of Washington. Let's wait for the expected release of the video (that is when they've finished making it).


of course, of course....

and bush organized 9/11..... obama was born in kenya.....and some other UFO nonsense too, right?

btw, we've got birthers and truthers......what are these nuts who don't believe osama is dead going to be called?

----------


## escaped

> FOXNEWS Breaking news: 
> 
> Obama Administration Kills Religious Man with Kidney Disease!
> 			
> 		
> 
> .....


How about**:

Obama administration claims to have killed terrorist who died several years earlier from a kidney disease.

----------


## escaped

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> No, something stinks in the state of Washington. Let's wait for the expected release of the video (that is when they've finished making it).
> 
> 
> of course, of course....
> 
> and bush organized 9/11..... obama was born in kenya.....and some other UFO nonsense too, right?
> 
> btw, we've got birthers and truthers......what are these nuts who don't believe osama is dead going to be called?


You forgot one fact..........Sokol isn't guilty of insider trading.

----------


## OhOh

> The military compound was an officer training school. What defences do you think Sandhurst or Westpoint has? 
> 
> What do you mean invaded?? FFS, the Paki army et al is funded by the USofA.


A country was invaded by another countries forces. They undertook a military action.




> What makes you think that?


Most civilised countries do not actually sentence the accused, after a fair trial, to the same fate as the accused's victim.




> Invasion? 3 helicopters, in and out in 40 minutes.
> The operation was launched from within Pakistan.
> And all else aside, who gives a fuck what the two faced paki assholes think.


Says whom, the rest of the world gives "a fuck" on what is demonstrated by a sheriff up for election

----------


## raycarey

> they have the footage. So I demand to see it.


note to self....don't mess with moog.




> Video of Osama bin Laden's  dead body being dropped into the North Arabian Sea from the USS Carl  Vinson early this morning could be made public, according to officials. 
>  The 40-minute ceremony, and perhaps photos of his corpse, will be  released "cautiously," according to The Associated Press, citing two  Pentagon officials.


Osama Bin Laden Sea Burial Video May Be Released - ABC News

----------


## OhOh

> Maybe, but that would mean one of his wives was coerced to lie (she apparently identified his body, at least according to CNN)- that's pretty unlikely.


The BBC is reporting that the "wife" did not identify Osama. The identification was performed by "one of the children, a 12 year old girl".

She is said to have said, " I saw him shot". She did not say whether he was shot at close range in execution style or from a distance. She did not say how long she was waterboarded, or confirm the amount of money she has been promised by the US government.

The attack, we are told, lasted 40 minutes yet no return fire has been alleged.

"Mr Brennan, a US counterterrorism adviser, told reporters that the commando team had been "able and prepared" to take Bin Laden alive "if he didn't present any threat".

"The concern was that Bin Laden would oppose any type of capture operation. Indeed, he did. It was a firefight. He, therefore, was killed in that firefight, and that's when the remains were removed," said Mr Brennan.

However other US officials who spoke to news agencies on condition of anonymity denied that Bin Laden had returned fire.

The al-Qaeda leader was in his bedroom when he was shot twice, officials said - once in the head and once in the chest."

Execution style? It appears that there were 15+ people in the house. Mostly women and children. 10+ were "captured" but Osama "needed" to be taken out. To keep the "wild west" posse and their sheriff on track.

----------


## koman

That's one ugly fucking house poor Usama was shacked up  in.  Looks like some farang houses in Thailand....no taste at all.... and now it's got blood all over the bedroom floors...   might sell pretty cheap.... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## baby maker

> got to admit they did ditch the body pretty quickly and secretively.


 
_The_ _longer you live...the stranger things seem to get..._

_for a well thought out strike, there seems to be precious little after the fact..._
_no confirmation....if we are to believe what we are being told...._

_Of one thing you can be sure....he is dead...whether years ago...or now..._
_otherwise you see Trump interviewing him on Fox News...._

_....the Romans would have Strangled him at a banquet..._
_....old England would have sent a quarter to furthest four corners of the Realm.._

_....The Mighty USA...just throws him overboard....after ten years....of looking..._
_and billions of dollars in the War On Terror..._

_.....bit of a hard swallow....Monty Python stuff...._

----------


## OhOh

> Originally Posted by good2bhappy
> 
> the info he had
> 
> 
> Actually they retrieved a potential gold mine of information from his computers, which were seized and are now being examined in Afghanistan. 
> 
> *Osama bin Laden raid yields trove of computer data*
> Read more: Osama bin Laden raid yields trove of computer data - Mike Allen - POLITICO.com
> ...


The "trove" of information would have course taken some time to "create" no doubt.

The "snaring" as you put it was a planned murder. From your link:

_"Officials described the reaction of the special operators when they were told a number of weeks ago that they had been chosen to train for the mission.

“They were told, ‘We think we found Osama bin Laden, and your job is to kill him,’” an official recalled.

The SEALs started to cheer."_

After they stopped grunting.

----------


## Butterfly

RC, I hate to agree with Faux nutters, but for once they might be right and onto something, just out of their hate for Obama (the world is indeed upside down in their world)

of course if it had been Bush, you bet your ass that Faux would have been all praise

basically the official story sounds more like another Saddam WMD and 911 Pentagon plane

----------


## OhOh

> Looks like some farang houses in Thailand


Anyone you want to mention?

----------


## Butterfly

a quick look at the compound, and it looks like a shithole

wasn't the official story about a luxury mansion of 1m USD ?

----------


## OhOh

> a quick look at the compound, and it looks like a shithole
> 
> wasn't the official story about a luxury mansion of 1m USD ?


It was meriken trailer trash who made the statement don't forget.

----------


## Buksida

Apparently Zawari was the main guy, but they let Osama take no. 1 position because he had the money and was more photgenic.

So what happens now? Can we all sleep well at night, no longer having to fear the terrorist boogeyman? Or will they find a new poster boy?

Does anyone know when the first time the term Al Quaeda was used?

----------


## FarangRed

Separately, Xinhua said the Urdu TV channel Geo News quoted Pakistani  intelligence officials as saying bin Laden was killed in a search  operation by the Pakistani forces after a Pakistani army helicopter was  shot down Monday morning in Abbotabad, a mountainous town north of  Islamabad.

----------


## sabang

> Osama will walk again in 3 days, mark my words


Saved for posterity.  :mid: 

If TD is a proxy for the World, it is full of nutters.

----------


## OhOh

> it is full of nutters.


Most of the TD members only look in amazement at the bullshit written here. 

We try to keep them amused and make them spit at their screens.

Anyway i have a field to plough, not like some lazy bastards I could name.

----------


## Butterfly

> If TD is a proxy for the World, it is full of nutters


says the red farang who see government snipers at every corner in Bangkok  :mid:

----------


## raycarey

> If TD is a proxy for the World, it is full of nutters.


it's almost impossible to believe that there are so many conspiracy theorists about.

hopefully most of them are just having a laugh.

----------


## escaped

> Originally Posted by sabang
> 
> If TD is a proxy for the World, it is full of nutters.
> 
> 
> it's almost impossible to believe that there are so many conspiracy theorists about.
> 
> hopefully most of them are just having a laugh.


Of course we have a laugh...............at those dumbers who believe anything the greatest ( at least that's what they think) in the world blows in their ears.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Originally Posted by sabang
> 
> If TD is a proxy for the World, it is full of nutters.
> 
> 
> it's almost impossible to believe that there are so many conspiracy theorists about.
> 
> hopefully most of them are just having a laugh.


The lunatic thesis is that America really did dispose of the body of their decade-long Public Enemy 1 by throwing it into the sea. Its defies rational belief.

----------


## rickschoppers

It is perfectly rational if you think about it a little. What is not rational are the rantings of the tin hat parade on this thread.

----------


## Butterfly

> The lunatic thesis is that America really did dispose of the body of their decade-long Public Enemy 1 by throwing it into the sea. Its defies rational belief.


of course it's a lie, they can't be dumb enough to do that,

but again you are dealing with seals, so not really the brightest of them all, and it's possible they thought it would be cute to dump the body into the sea, probably because it didn't smell too good

----------


## raycarey

moog,

did you see the link i posted on the previous page?

apparently video does exist and will be released.....although perhaps not as quickly as some here would like.

some nutter on here posted that this was a ruse which would allow the US govt to create a fake video.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Butterfly

> It is perfectly rational if you think about it a little. What is not rational are the rantings of the tin hat parade on this thread.


what is more hilarious is the amount of gullible people,

in some ways, the public doesn't deserve the truth, any truth, they are too dumb

throw them a bone, and they dance in the streets

reminds me of primitive tribes when they killed a member of an enemy tribe, or stole a bride

----------


## Butterfly

> apparently video does exist and will be released.....although perhaps not as quickly as some here would like.


you mean like the one from the Pentagon ?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## rickschoppers

^^
What size is your tin hat Butters? It must be a BIG one.

----------


## koman

[quote=Butterfly;1747711]a quick look at the compound, and it looks like a shithole

wasn't the official story about a luxury mansion of 1m USD ?[/quote

Early reports referred to it as a "mansion"....then it was a compound.  It  seems to be in fact a shithole of a mansion inside a compound. Why are we splitting hairs over his digs and  the estimated construction costs? 

  Many of the statements being touted around on here have just come from early media reports.   I happened to have the TV on when the news started to break and the first report stated that Bin Laden had been killed by a US bomb!!!  Then they said he had been killed a week ago, but they had been waiting on positive ID.  This was not updated for about half an hour, when more information became available.  The media goes apeshit when something like this happens and they keep things going with made up bullshit until actual facts become available.

There is a great deal of conflicting "information" still floating around, because people speculate and make shit up which gets out there in info land, and the conspiracy guys get all tuned up for another round.

I think our best source is the Pakistani officials. 
 I have never known them to lie.. or offer inaccurate information.  :mid: .

----------


## Butterfly

American Public dancing in the street == Primitive Tribe from Afghanistan or Pakistan

----------


## raycarey

> you mean like the one from the Pentagon ?


ok, fair point.

yes, the pentagon has a long history of lying about just about everything, but i'm just not seeing it in this case.

----------


## Butterfly

> What size is your tin hat Butters? It must be a BIG one


how big a sucker are you ? you must be quite the attraction here in Thailand  :Smile:

----------


## OhOh

> hopefully most of them are just having a laugh.


As long as you think this is OK:

_"An extrajudicial killing is the killing of a person by governmental authorities without the sanction of any judicial proceeding or legal process. Extrajudicial punishments are by their nature unlawful, since they bypass the due process of the legal jurisdiction in which they occur. Extrajudicial killings often target leading political, trade union, dissident, religious, and social figures and may be carried out by the state government or other state authorities like the armed forces and police."_

It's no laughing matter if you are on the wrong end of it.

_"The United States cannot conduct standard military operations in Pakistan, because a formal state of war between the two countries does not exist, and because Pakistan denies permission of U.S. combat operations there. The drone strikes, however, are permitted as covert operations (extrajudicial killings), run by the CIA."_

----------


## Jesus Jones

Perfect timing. Now Gadaffi can be the next patsy!

----------


## Butterfly

> It is perfectly rational if you think about it a little


yes please explain how it's rationale,

it's only rationale if you are a sheep and follow the crowd to the slaughter house,

----------


## OhOh

> I think our best source is the Pakistani officials.


Unless .........

----------


## Butterfly

> It's no laughing matter if you are on the wrong end of it.


what it means now is that our government leaders should be fair game for targets, and go to war over it, like we used to 300 years ago

oh wait !!!

"he tried to kill my father, that's why we should invade"

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> It seems ludicrous that the US would throw the hottest piece of forensic evidence they've ever had into the sea merely to satisfy Muslim burial rites.


It sure does. Unless they didn't have any forensic evidence in the first place. I nearly greened you.. Keep up the good work.

----------


## Butterfly

> yes, the pentagon has a long history of lying about just about everything, but i'm just not seeing it in this case.


only because your bias is toward Obama,

it would have been Bush, I can assure you you would have felt different

Obama has definitely sold out, he is done. His economic advisors are the old team from the pre-2008 crisis, nothing has changed, he came back on all his words. He is a fraud.

Fucking replicans were right,

----------


## buriramboy

I can't wait till they show a video of Osama being thrown into the sea for the simple reason it will show/prove nothing other than a body bag with no hard evidence of who if anyone is inside it. These dumb seppos do dig themselves into a hole at times.

----------


## raycarey

> it would have been Bush, I can assure you you would have felt different


i don't think so....i never bought any of that 9/11 'truther' stuff.

----------


## Butterfly

> i don't think so....i never bought any of that 9/11 'truther' stuff.


you should watch that documentary "Inside Job" narrated by Matt Damon,

it's about the financial crisis and how Obama sold out, he didn't do the necessary reforms at the end, complete wasted opportunity. The dream team from the Bush years are all back on board. Outrageous.

----------


## Butterfly

> never bought any of that 9/11 'truther' stuff.


911 is no different than Saddam WMD, you either believe it or you don't, despite all the facts

at this stage, we are dealing with political religions

----------


## raycarey

> you should watch that documentary "Inside Job"


seen it.

and yes, obama missed some opportunities to make things right.

wall st. is too powerful.

----------


## Butterfly

> seen it.
> 
> and yes, obama missed some opportunities to make things right.
> 
> wall st. is too powerful.


Reagan legacy, they created a monster they can't stop

Derivatives are needed and in some ways they can't be regulated, but nominating at key regulatory jobs WallStreet insiders and lobbyists is simply criminal.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> The lunatic thesis is that America really did dispose of the body of their decade-long Public Enemy 1 by throwing it into the sea. Its defies rational belief.


They'll believe it even if they never show clear images of him, the attack, the shark's bait. 

After all, a fully laden 757 jetliner performed aerial acrobatics over the middle of Washicngton DC in the middle of a work day morning, swooped down at 350 MPH just a few feet above the manicured lawn of the Pentagon and into the side of the building - and didn't leave any trace of its engines, eight-story high tailfin, wings (combined length of a football field.. Nope all just vanished into vapor inside the building.

Oh yes - and there's no video of that either at perhaps the most security conscious building in the US of A.

I mean people believe that story. So why wouldn't they believe an aging raghead was shot in the middle of the night in some small town in Pakistan with no witnesses and his body chucked into the sea?

Yes it's fuckin looney tunes for sure. But everyone's bought it.

----------


## raycarey

> After all, a fully laden 757 jetliner performed aerial acrobatics over the middle of Washicngton DC in the middle of a work day morning, swooped down at 350 MPH just a few feet above the manicured lawn of the Pentagon and into the side of the building - and didn't leave any trace of its engines, eight-story high tailfin, wings (combined length of a football field.. Nope all just vanished into vapor inside the building.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

^
Which part was inaccurate?

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> moog,
> 
> did you see the link i posted on the previous page?
> 
> apparently video does exist and will be released.....although perhaps not as quickly as some here would like.
> 
> some nutter on here posted that this was a ruse which would allow the US govt to create a fake video.


Yes, I see. And you know. I'm happy to wait and watch it, whilst remaining incredulous that what they proffered so far was a shot of Obama, Clinton and others apparently watching .....somethng or other...on the other side of the room......after which they ask us to believe that Obama gave the nod (and it would have been his call) to submerge the best piece of forensic evidence ever to fall into his lap.

It beggars belief, and it risks prejudicing everything else said if that episode actually unfolded differently.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

Maybe his body accidently fell out of the helicopter and into the sea. I hear the US nasties were pretty good at that trick. Even taught the Thais how to do it.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by raycarey
> 
> i don't think so....i never bought any of that 9/11 'truther' stuff.
> 
> 
> you should watch that documentary "Inside Job" narrated by Matt Damon,
> 
> it's about the financial crisis and how Obama sold out, he didn't do the necessary reforms at the end, complete wasted opportunity. The dream team from the Bush years are all back on board. Outrageous.


I can't see how Obama can do anything. The rest of the elected government are all on the take and would stop him anyway.

----------


## OhOh

> somethng or other...on the other side of the room


From Clintons face it may have been the "cigar" video.

----------


## rickschoppers

> Originally Posted by rickschoppers
> 
> It is perfectly rational if you think about it a little
> 
> 
> yes please explain how it's rationale,
> 
> it's only rationale if you are a sheep and follow the crowd to the slaughter house,


Can't you put a sentance together without the word sheep in it? One would think you have some sort of love for the animal, but maybe you do.

 :Aussie:

----------


## rickschoppers

> Originally Posted by rickschoppers
> 
> What size is your tin hat Butters? It must be a BIG one
> 
> 
> how big a sucker are you ? you must be quite the attraction here in Thailand


Do you even venture out into the world, or do you hide because everyone is out to get you? Paranoid comes to mind and you really need to up your medication.  :Smile:

----------


## Buksida

Both [the Islamists and Neoconservatives] were idealists who were born  out of the failure of the liberal dream to build a better world. And  both had a very similar explanation for what caused that failure. These  two groups have changed the world, but not in the way that either  intended. Together, they created today a nightmare vision of a  secret, organized evil that threatens the world. A fantasy that  politicians then found restored their power and authority in a  disillusioned age. And those with the darkest fears became the most  powerful.

----------


## OhOh

U.S. has adopted Israel's targeted killing strategy: former Israeli defense minister

_"JERUSALEM, May 3 (Xinhua) -- Israel's former defense minister and army chief of staff Shaul Mofaz told local media Tuesday that the United States, in killing Osama bin Laden after a decade-long search rather than trying him in a court of law, had essentially legitimized a past Israeli policy of "targeted assassinations" of the leaders of militant groups.

Mofaz, who heads the influential Knesset (Israel's parliament) Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee told Israel Radio in an interview that the U.S. decision justified the former policy that Israel implemented in its war against Palestinian militants, which included killing Hamas and other top-echelon Palestinian officials.

While many in the international community slammed the policy, calling it "extrajudicial killings," Israel strongly maintained that going after the heads of militant organizations involved in planning and carrying out attacks against civilians and soldiers was justified, and caused the least amount of harm to non- combatants.

Israel, Mofaz said, began implementing the policy in the wake of the murder of nine Israeli athletes at the 1972 Munich Olympics as a method of curtailing terror attacks locally and against Israeli citizens and interests abroad.

"This was a kill operation," a U.S. official said of the nighttime Navy SEAL raid on the compound, where bin Laden had reportedly lived for the last three years.

The remark ruled out previous speculation that the American government had planned to capture and try bin Laden for the Sept. 11 attacks which killed close to 4,000 citizens. "_

----------


## bobo746

World hide and seek champion 2001-2011

----------


## BobR

> Originally Posted by OhOh
> 
> It's no laughing matter if you are on the wrong end of it.
> 
> 
> what it means now is that our government leaders should be fair game for targets, and go to war over it, like we used to 300 years ago
> 
> oh wait !!!
> 
> "he tried to kill my father, that's why we should invade"




Sometimes you are too caustic even for me, but this time you are right.  Also what's wrong with my fellow Americans?

  When the American Government simply executes anyone accused of a crime 2 feet in front of his bed, without a trial or a lawyer or a chance to make a statement in a public forum,, is that really something for any intelligent American to be happy about?  Even in war, the enemy was supposed to be given a chance to surrender.

----------


## rickschoppers

^^
That was before the war on terror. All rules are out the window like ieds, using civilians as shields, flying planes into highrise buildings; do I need to go on? Conventional warfare and rules have not been relevant for a long time. Why should a country always do the "right" thing when everyone else is not?

----------


## Loy Toy

I have not been following this thread but it was mentioned to me that they could of had him on many previous occasions but it wasn't the right time.

Can someone explain to me why now was the right time to waste him?

----------


## Cujo

> I have not been following this thread but it was mentioned to me that they could of had him on many previous occasions but it wasn't the right time.
> 
> Can someone explain to me why now was the right time to waste him?


I don't believe for a moment they 
They could have had him on many previous occasions.
I think if they could have, they would have. 
You been listening to butters again LT?

----------


## Dan

> When the American Government simply executes anyone accused of a crime 2 feet in front of his bed, without a trial or a lawyer or a chance to make a statement in a public forum,, is that really something for any intelligent American to be happy about? Even in war, the enemy was supposed to be given a chance to surrender.


Quite. I'm just listening to the World Service which is reporting that he wasn't armed when he was shot but somehow he was still 'resisting'. There doesn't seem to be much way of avoiding the conclusion that he was assassinated, and though the Tom Clancy-reading types will no doubt find this all highly exciting, it's a sorry fucking day.

----------


## bobo746

I'm not pro american but what else could they do if they arrested him and took him back to the states that would just give his followers another reason to carry on and demand his release he's better of at the bottom of the ocean imo.

----------


## Butterfly

> From Clintons face it may have been the "cigar" video.


from her look, it could have been anything, maybe a naked picture of her husband in a room with a college student




> you really need to up your medication.


yes keep drinking the Kool Aid, you Americans are so cutely naive and keep asking for it  :Smile:

----------


## Butterfly

> he's better of at the bottom of the ocean


he is not even there, I am with Moog, he is either in Area 51 with the rest of the Aliens body or in a freezer at the White House

----------


## Butterfly

> After all, a fully laden 757 jetliner performed aerial acrobatics over the middle of Washicngton DC in the middle of a work day morning, swooped down at 350 MPH just a few feet above the manicured lawn of the Pentagon and into the side of the building


completely impossible, and the only thing that could do that is a missile

gotta love it how Rumsfield kept making those mistakes in public press conf

"when the missile hit the Pentagon, hum, I mean the plane"

----------


## rickschoppers

^^
Butters, you are definately one of a kind. There are just too many questions to be answered to even come close to exactly how this all went down. Osama bin Laden is dead and he was shot by Navy Seals that were ordered to carry out this operation by the President of the United States. The thought that there were plenty of opportunities to kill him before is pure bullshit and nobody can supply concrete proof otherwise. If there were other opportunities, the outcome would have been the same. To theorize anything else is dilusional thinking. I don't think anyone, uncluding British Special Ops would have shaken his hand and helped him onto the helicopter as they transported him off to England. They would have blown his brains out like the Navy Seals to make sure there was no chance of escape or rescue. Any military personnel would do the same if they had the chance and that is exactly what happened. To read more into the story, as many posters are doing, is a waste of effort.
To bury the body at sea is a great choice. Why would you risk his escape or worse yet, take him to trial in today's world? This way there is no way of knowing where he is and recovering the body, or starting a war for ownership of his pathetic carcass. The consipiracy freaks will not accept anything someone else states as truth and must always look for another angle to the story. I am not saying it all happened exactly as reported since the media likes to embelish and twist stories to gain listeners. However, as time goes by, I think it will be very evident that this scumbag is dead and was given a reasonalbe burial according to the muslim faith. Much more than what he gave to the thousands that were killed by his plans or actions. Quit trying to make this something it is not and sit back to see what is reported and then try to eliminate the fluff.

----------


## Butterfly

^ typical American Patriot nutter, love it  :rofl: 

what's your evidence again he was killed as described by the White House ? oh wait, none  :Razz:

----------


## baby maker

> Originally Posted by bobo746
> 
> he's better of at the bottom of the ocean
> 
> 
> he is not even there, I am with Moog, he is either in Area 51 with the rest of the Aliens body or in a freezer at the White House


 
.....next you be telling us....they will be having him for dinner....
a bit tribal....butters....

people and places....what do we know...

----------


## rickschoppers

^
What's your evidence he wasn't butthead?

----------


## Boon Mee

> it's a sorry fucking day.


Wot you mean, Dan?  Because Obama was playing SOCOM4 while the grownups were exterminating bin laden with extreme prejudice? :rofl:

----------


## sabang

If he had been taken alive, the uproar from both the 'true patriot' and islamoloonie brigade would have been deafening.

----------


## Butterfly

> they will be having him for dinner....


probably, some strange "obscure" fraternity sects like S&B will have him for diner  :Razz: 

Bush will have his head of course, he needs all the brain he can get

----------


## Humbert

The Teak Door Tin Hat Brigade is winding itself up into a spectacular spin now. Very enjoyable.

----------


## S Landreth

Someone brought up torture (and how it might have helped find OBL) in this thread. This post points to another direction,(it didnt help)

The debate is now manipulating the question at issue, suggesting that the fact Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Faraj al-Libi provided tidbits (or, according to several reports, unconvincing denials) that led to OBL equates to us needing torture to get that intelligence. Particularly given that CIA used the denials of KSM and al-Libi as indications they were hiding something, its unclear why a denial without coercion would have served differently.

But there are two points that seem key in assessing the torture question. First, both KSM and al-Libi had critical intelligence they withheld under torture. KSM knew of Abu Ahmeds trusted role and real name; al-Libi knew Abu Ahmed was OBLs trusted courier and may have known of what became OBLs compound.
And neither of them revealed that information to the CIA.

*They waterboarded KSM 183 times in a month, and he either never got asked about couriers guarding OBL, or he avoided answering the question honestly. Had KSM revealed that detail, Bush might have gotten OBL 8 years ago.*

*And just as importantly, the whole time KSM was shielding Abu Ahmeds true identity while being waterboarded, KSM was also lying to the CIA about where OBL was. When asked what things he lied about under torture at his 2007 CSRT hearing, KSM specifically said he first said he didnt know of OBLs whereabouts, and then confirmed false locations for him, in response to the torture.*

President [of the Tribunal]: What Im trying to get at is any statement that you made was it because of this treatment, to use your word, you claim torture. Do you make any statements because of that?

[snip]

KSM: I make up stories just location UBL. Where is he? I dont know. Then he torture me. Then I said yes, he is in this area or this is al Qaida which I dont him. I say no. They torture me.

*So at the time when KSM was guarding crucial information about Abu Ahmed and with it OBLs location, he was making shit up to get the torture to stop.*

As I understand the torture apologists arguments, the whole point of it (aside from generating propaganda and making chicken hawks excited) is to get crucial intelligence quickly, to skip the laborious process of acquiring a mosaic of information and developing deep knowledge of an organization over yearsthat is, to skip the process that has now resulted in the death of OBL. But instead of skipping that step, we got denials andin the case of KSMdisinformation. And only now, eight and six years later, were only now becoming aware of the intelligence these men had that would have led to OBL had our interrogation been more successful.

Link: http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2011/05/03/ksm-was-lying-about-obls-location-while-hiding-the-courier-who-could-locate-him/

----------


## sabang

> Originally Posted by Dan
> 
> 
>  it's a sorry fucking day.
> 
> 
> Wot you mean, Dan?  Because Obama was playing SOCOM4 while the grownups were exterminating bin laden with extreme prejudice?


Nah, because Obama achieved on his watch what Bush failed to do.  :Smile:

----------


## Butterfly

> If he had been taken alive, the uproar from both the 'true patriot' and islamoloonie brigade would have been deafening.


 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

sab, shouldn't this be correctly labeled a conspiracy ? with "if" you can make all kind of scenarios,

----------


## baby maker

> ^^
> Butters, you are definately one of a kind. There are just too many questions to be answered to even come close to exactly how this all went down. Osama bin Laden is dead and he was shot by Navy Seals that were ordered to carry out this operation by the President of the United States. The thought that there were plenty of opportunities to kill him before is pure bullshit and nobody can supply concrete proof otherwise. If there were other opportunities, the outcome would have been the same. To theorize anything else is dilusional thinking. I don't think anyone, uncluding British Special Ops would have shaken his hand and helped him onto the helicopter as they transported him off to England. They would have blown his brains out like the Navy Seals to make sure there was no chance of escape or rescue. Any military personnel would do the same if they had the chance and that is exactly what happened. To read more into the story, as many posters are doing, is a waste of effort.
> To bury the body at sea is a great choice. Why would you risk his escape or worse yet, take him to trial in today's world? This way there is no way of knowing where he is and recovering the body, or starting a war for ownership of his pathetic carcass. The consipiracy freaks will not accept anything someone else states as truth and must always look for another angle to the story. I am not saying it all happened exactly as reported since the media likes to embelish and twist stories to gain listeners. However, as time goes by, I think it will be very evident that this scumbag is dead and was given a reasonalbe burial according to the muslim faith. Much more than what he gave to the thousands that were killed by his plans or actions. Quit trying to make this something it is not and sit back to see what is reported and then try to eliminate the fluff.


 
Thats a fair call......

----------


## Butterfly

> The Teak Door Tin Hat Brigade is winding itself up into a spectacular spin now. Very enjoyable.


you are American Humbert, you are not trained to think independently outside your government propaganda, so shut up will you ?  :Smile:

----------


## Butterfly

> Thats a fair call......


it is if you are a brain dead American patriot loon,

----------


## rickschoppers

Butters, got to give you and A for the entertainment factor. Almost fell out of my chair laughing, but you also are not rowing with both oars in the water.
 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

----------


## Humbert

> Originally Posted by Humbert
> 
> The Teak Door Tin Hat Brigade is winding itself up into a spectacular spin now. Very enjoyable.
> 
> 
> you are American Humbert, you are not trained to think independently outside your government propaganda, so shut up will you ?


Apologies Einstein but you are just hilarious.

----------


## Butterfly

> Apologies Einstein but you are just hilarious.


not as much as you American patriot nutters  :Smile: 

how does Kool Aid taste ?  :Razz:

----------


## Boon Mee

> The Teak Door Tin Hat Brigade is winding itself up into a spectacular spin now. Very enjoyable.


This is true.  Too bad I haven't got time today to wind up the 'usual suspects'.  Although, from a quick glance, Butterfly has done wound himself up with no help from anyone! :rofl:

----------


## Humbert

^Pernod must accelerate brain atrophy. :Smile:

----------


## Carrabow

> ^^
> To bury the body at sea is a great choice. Why would you risk his escape or worse yet, take him to trial in today's world? .


He did not give the others he wasted a proper burial. What lovely poetic justice. All of his followers can now sit in the dark and just wonder...wonder they will.

Oh Butters... Why would the USA want a big ole slap in the face?

If the guy was as close to "Big Guy" as he thought he was, maybe he will be resurrected in a few days and prove them wrong. It's not gonna happen, you need your beauty rest so dont lose any sleep over this.  :Smile:

----------


## Cujo

Would there be any benefit to displaying an unrecognizable corpse?
It's possible that the reason they dumped the corpse in the ocean is that it is unrecognizable.
If they put 2 in his head it's quite possible they literally blew his face off. 
 They don't use .22 rounds these guys. 
And showing an unrecognizable, faceless corpse would be worse than dumping it in the ocean.
Just another possible explanation.
As someone already said, dumping the body in the ocean so quickly defies rational belief. There must be a reason.
We've heard a lot from the tin hat brigade except a plausibile alternative explanation. 
After all, we agree on one thing and that is that something happened.
If not as reported then what? And why?

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

A 'conspiracy theorist' looking at the first day lead yesterday would have questioned the image of him leaping out of bed firing an AK 47 and hiding behing his wife.

Many papers used that imagery.

By day 2 it was admitted to be wrong.

The US haven't really clarified their story. Yet they had sufficient time to do it. Puttng the body out of reach in the most extreme way is now only going to satisfy the most credulous. So they are going to have to lay out all their (gruesome) evidence now, which they wouldn't have had to do if they'd used common sense initially.

----------


## shadow role

lived in luxury,millionaires mansion?
woman used as a human shield?
mechanical failure of helicopter...then blown up?
OBL..shot in a 'firefight?
DNA'd then buried at sea with muslim protocol?
need a new PR team!

----------


## Carrabow

> Would there be any benefit to displaying an unrecognizable corpse?
> It's possible that the reason they dumped the corpse in the ocean is that it is unrecognizable.
> If they put t in his head it's quite possible they literally blew his face off. 
> They don't use .22 rounds these guys. 
> And showing an unrecognizable, faceless corpse would be worse than dumping it in the ocean.
> Just another possible explanation.
> As someone already said, dumping the body in the ocean so quickly defies rational belief. There must be a reason.
> We've heard a lot from the tin hat brigade except a plausibile alternative explanation. 
> After all, we agree on one thing and that is that something happened.
> If not as reported then what? And why?


Doubt is a powerful psychological weapon. Why Not?

----------


## FailSafe

> They don't use .22 rounds these guys.


Sure they do, depending on the circumstances- special forces teams aren't bound by the usual weapons choices.

That said, it was probably a .223 round shot from an M4 considering it was close-quarters.

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> They don't use .22 rounds these guys.
> 
> 
> Sure they do, depending on the circumstances- special forces teams aren't bound by the usual weapons choices.
> 
> That said, it was probably a .223 round shot from an M4 considering it was close-quarters.


 You forgot HK 41, 51 in a array of calibers  :Smile:

----------


## Thormaturge

> I'm not pro american but what else could they do if they arrested him and took him back to the states that would just give his followers another reason to carry on and demand his release he's better of at the bottom of the ocean imo.


I agree entirely.

The man was an admitted mass murderer with no remorse, who intended to continue.

If he had surrendered to the Seals then I can understand some criticism, but he didn't.  What were they supposed to do, read him his rights?  Make him a pot of tea?

Hopefully sufficient information has been obtained to identify other members of his organization, and the world has been made just a tad safer in the long term.

I expect we will still have to remove our shoes at airports though.....

It is interesting that information leading to this action was obtained through interrogating suspects at Guantanamo Bay.  Now we understand Obama's decision to keep the base open. 

As for that photo from inside the situation Room.  Obama looks angry and Clinton looks shocked.

I think they've just seen Dick Cheney's 2012 Republican nomination poster on the wall of Obama's house.

----------


## FailSafe

> You forgot HK 41, 51 in a array of calibers


I would take that bet. :Smile: 

It would have been an M4 (with a 30 round mag) or (though not likely) a 9mm or .45 round.

Edited- I did a search to try to find the info- there are at least 4 different rifles (and a couple of pistols) in the running.

----------


## Butterfly

> The US haven't really clarified their story. Yet they had sufficient time to do it. Puttng the body out of reach in the most extreme way is now only going to satisfy the most credulous. So they are going to have to lay out all their (gruesome) evidence now, which they wouldn't have had to do if they'd used common sense initially.


I think the story is highly misleading for several reasons. It distracts the attention from the truth and they must have known the story had holes,

in the meantime, in Libya and Syria  :mid:

----------


## shadow role

Saddam was captured and had a trial....Osama was unarmed ,why was he executed?

----------


## good2bhappy

^ a good question

----------


## Butterfly

> Osama was unarmed ,why was he executed?


because he wasn't executed,

my bet is that he died sleeping in his bed a few weeks ago, and the Pakistan and US put up that operation for show

they couldn't show the body as it was in advance decomposition, so the "sea story" suddenly became a good option

----------


## Carrabow

> Saddam was captured and had a trial....Osama was unarmed ,why was he executed?


 I am not picking on you...

How easily we forget what he did. Even if it was only by his word, he claimed the fame.

----------


## Cujo

> Saddam was captured and had a trial....Osama was unarmed ,why was he executed?


How do you know he was unarmed?

----------


## good2bhappy

^ White House spokesman

----------


## FailSafe

> Saddam was captured and had a trial....Osama was unarmed ,why was he executed?


He got caught up in a firefight- he could have surrendered but didn't (and, since the US is already saying he wasn't armed but resisted, he obviously made some sort of move- it would have been easiest to just say he was armed in the first place, regardless of the actual circumstances, but they let that piece of info go pretty quickly)- not complying with a special forces team's orders is never a good idea- they're not going to wait to see if you pull out a gun if you're standing when they enter a room- if he was anywhere but face-down on the floor, he was done.

The official word is on the link below:

Video: Osama bin Laden unarmed when shot dead - Telegraph

----------


## good2bhappy

shot in the head^
sounds like an assasination to me
not random fire

----------


## FailSafe

It wasn't 'random fire'- he was shot dead because he wasn't on the ground and resisted.

If a trained special forces operative is in the same room with you and wants to shoot you, do you really think a head-shot is out of the question?  

The first thing they teach you is not to shoot to wound, but to kill- this ain't the 'Old West'- you don't aim for the arm- it's the head or center-mass.

----------


## Butterfly

> He got caught up in a firefight- he could have surrendered but didn't (and, since the US is already saying he wasn't armed but resisted, he obviously made some sort of move- it would have been easiest to just say he was armed in the first place, regardless of the actual circumstances, but they let that piece of info go pretty quickly)- not complying with a special forces team's orders is never a good idea- they're not going to wait to see if you pull out a gun if you're standing when they enter a room- if he was anywhere but face-down on the floor, he was done.


and you can claim all this because you were there, right ?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

The American public is full of nutters, but we knew that already otherwise we wouldn't be in Iraq and Afghanistan,

----------


## Butterfly

> If a trained special forces operative is in the same room with you and wants to shoot you, do you really think a head-shot is out of the question?


if, if, if, if

you sound like a conspiracy nutter  :Smile: 




> The first thing they teach you is not to shoot to wound, but to kill- this ain't the 'Old West'- you don't aim for the arm.


oh wait, let me get this straight, you have trained with the seals, haven't you ?  :rofl:

----------


## FailSafe

> and you can claim all this because you were there, right ?


You seem to know quite a bit, and you weren't there either, BF (as far as I know). :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

When the Towers came down, did you dance in the streets, of just walk around for several days with a smug look of satisfaction on your face?

----------


## Cujo

> ^ White House spokesman


Repeat, how do you know he was unarmed?

----------


## Butterfly

> When the Towers came down, did you dance in the streets, of just walk around for several days with a smug look of satisfaction on your face?


yes, terrorists are everywhere, hiding under your bed etc...  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

what a funny nutter you make, so typically American  :Smile:

----------


## FailSafe

> you sound like a conspiracy nutter


That's really something, coming from the Conspiracy Nutter King.






> oh wait, let me get this straight, you have trained with the seals, haven't you ?


Even _you_ can't be that dumb- in a close-up firefight, do you really think they teach you to shoot to wound?  Even in civilian defense courses, you're taught that if you have to shoot, make it count.

----------


## FailSafe

> what a funny nutter you make, so typically American


Can you at least answer the question?  I'm going with the 'smug look'.

----------


## Butterfly

> That's really something, coming form the Conspiracy Nutter King


exactly, and I can tell a conspiracy nutter when I see one, and you are doing a pretty good job with all your gullible assumptions  :Smile: 




> do you really think they teach you to shoot to wound?


I don't train with seals, so I wouldn't know  :rofl: 




> Even in civilian defense courses, you're taught that if you have to shoot, make it count.


civilian defense courses advocating murders ? I highly doubt that, but again in nutter America everything is possible

----------


## good2bhappy

> The first thing they teach you is not to shoot to wound, but to kill-


they shot the wife in the leg when she rushed them
so they claim

----------


## FailSafe

> civilian defense courses advocating murders ? I highly doubt that,


It's not 'advocating murder'- the point is made that if you are in a life-threatening situation where you feel you need to defend yourself with deadly force, if you shoot, shoot to kill (you're always taught to go for center-mass)- you are NEVER taught to go for an arm or leg. 

I know your natural inclination would be to surrender, but that rarely works. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Cujo

Osama bin Laden killed: live - Telegraph


> The White House revealed that one issue preventing the release of    photos of bin Laden's body after the shooting was concern that they could be "inflammatory".    Mr Carney said: _There are sensitivities here in terms of the appropriateness of releasing    photographs of Osama bin Laden in the aftermath of this fire fight and we    are making an evaluation about the need to do that. Does it serve or in any    way harm our interests? That's not just domestic but globally._  
>   Mr Carney said that the "gruesome" nature of the photographs was an    issue, adding: "It could be inflammatory." 
> *
> 19.46* Here is the full text of the White House's latest narrative on    the raid in which Osama bin Laden was killed:  
> 
> On orders of the President, a small US team assaulted a secure compound in an    affluent suburb of Islamabad to capture or kill Osama bin Laden. The raid    was conducted with US military personnel assaulting on two helicopters. The    team methodically cleared the compound, moving from room to room in an    operation lasting nearly 40 minutes. They were engaged in a fire fight    throughout the operation and Osama bin Laden was killed by the assaulting    force. In addition to the bin Laden family, two other families resided in    the compound - one family on the first floor of the bin Laden building and    one family in a second building. One team began the operation on the first    floor of the bin Laden house and worked their way to the third floor. A    second team cleared the separate building. On the first floor of bin Laden's    building two al-Qaeda couriers were killed, along with a woman who was    killed in crossfire. Bin Laden and his family were found on the second and    third floor of the building. There was concern that bin Laden would oppose    the capture operation and indeed he did resist. In a room with bin Laden, a    woman - bin Laden's wife - rushed the US assaulter and was shot in the leg    but not killed. Bin Laden was then shot and killed. He was not armed.    Following the fire fight the non-combatants were moved to a safe location as    the damaged helicopter was detonated. The team departed the scene via    helicopter to USS Carl Vinson in the North Arabian Sea. Aboard the USS Carl    Vinson, the burial of bin Laden was done in accordance with Islamic precepts    and practices. The deceased's body was washed and then placed in a white    sheet. The body was placed in a weighted bag, a military officer read    prepared religious remarks, which were translated into Arabic by a native    speaker. After the words were complete, the body was placed on a prepared    flat board, tipped up and the deceased's body was eased into the sea.

----------


## FailSafe

> they shot the wife in the leg when she rushed them so they claim


That doesn't mean they hit her there on purpose- sometimes they even miss- in bin Laden's case, they got him in the head.

----------


## good2bhappy

^OK
but they are saying he was unarmed
Life threatening situation?
No, they executed him.

----------


## good2bhappy

> That doesn't mean they hit her there on purpose- sometimes they even miss- in bin Laden's case, they got him in the head.


you're having a laugh

----------


## FailSafe

The room was probably dark, and it was definitely filled with smoke from gunshots- if you're not down on the ground, you are a potential threat- special forces teams eliminate potential threats- they don't take the time to frisk you and read you your rights.

I think they would have been fine with taking him alive- I also think they were fine with killing him- no one in there was going to take the chance of risking their lives to wait and see if he pulled out a gun- he had a choice- he made it- he paid for it.

Hopefully the video comes out and puts some questions to rest.

----------


## Butterfly

> you're having a laugh


no he is American, they are natural comedians  :Smile:

----------


## FailSafe

> you're having a laugh


No- I'm starting to think that you are, though.

----------


## Butterfly

> The room was probably dark, and it was definitely filled with smoke from gunshots- if you're not down on the ground, you are a potential threat- special forces teams eliminate potential threats- they don't take the time to frisk you and read you your rights.


so you were there at the end ? please don't lie, we know you are Navy Seals

----------


## Humbert

The last thing the west wanted was a live, captive Osama Bin Laden standing trial. A living , breathing, mythic folk hero chained to a bed in some military prison? His incarceration would just throw fuel on the fire for the jihadists. Much better dead and sent to an ignominious watery grave.

----------


## Cujo

Osama bin Laden dead: how Barack Obama and the White House watched - Telegraph


> *Osama bin Laden dead: how Barack Obama and the White House watched*
> 
> * The latest developments in military technology allowed Barack Obama to watch    the moment Osama bin Laden was assassinated, with the American Navy Seals    using helmet-mounted cameras to provide video footage to the President’s    command centre in Washington.  * 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> ...

----------


## FailSafe

> no he is American, they are natural comedians


Second only to conspiracy-spouting Belgians (at least on this thread).

Come on, spill it- it was the 'smug look', right?

----------


## Butterfly

> The body was placed in a weighted bag,


 :rofl: 

nothing to see, move along

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Originally Posted by FailSafe
> 
> The room was probably dark, and it was definitely filled with smoke from gunshots- if you're not down on the ground, you are a potential threat- special forces teams eliminate potential threats- they don't take the time to frisk you and read you your rights.
> 
> 
> so you were there at the end ? please don't lie, we know you are Navy Seals


You better watch out Butterfly ! Failsafe put the mockers on/willies up Ant Robertson - and Ant's much harder than you are !

----------


## Butterfly

> The last thing the west wanted was a live, captive Osama Bin Laden standing trial


says who ? you and the other nutters ?




> Much better dead and sent to an ignominious watery grave.


hardly, he just became the new Christ. The romans tried and failed to kill such a famous terrorist, and look where we are now 2,000 years later.

----------


## FailSafe

> so you were there at the end ? please don't lie, we know you are Navy Seals


Did you see the video of the inside of the house?  It was as dim as a cave, and that was after everything had cleared- you didn't have to be there to actually get a sense of what went on (look at the assumptions you've made, which are based on absolutely nothing- at least I'm working from available evidence... if that evidence is later contradicted, OK, but it's not something I pulled out of my ass, which is _your_ specialty). :Smile:

----------


## Butterfly

> Failsafe put the mockers on/willies up Ant Robertson


what's the mockers ?

----------


## good2bhappy

> It was as dim as a cave


then how did they positively identify him to shoot him?

----------


## Cujo

*Osama Bin Laden dead:  White House backtracks on how bin Laden died*

* The White House admitted last night that its initial account of the way Osama    bin Laden died at the hands of US forces had been riddled with errors.  * 









Link to this video 

 
 				By Gordon Rayner, and Toby Harnden in Washington 				 				9:43PM BST 03 May 2011 		 		 				Comment 


 	  Claims that the al-Qaeda    leader had died while firing an automatic weapon at commandos were    withdrawn, with President Barack Obama’s spokesman admitting “he was    unarmed”. A dramatic description of bin Laden using his wife as a “human    shield” and forcing her to sacrifice her life also proved to be false. The    woman was still alive and was taken into custody with several of the    terrorist’s children.  

  In an embarrassing climb-down, Barack    Obama’s press secretary, Jay Carney, admitted that the previous version    of events — which came mostly from the chief US counter-terrorism adviser,    John Brennan — had been put out “with great haste”.  

  The about-turn left the US open to accusations of a cover-up and led to calls    for video footage of the raid in Abbottabad, Pakistan,    and images of bin Laden’s body to be released to end conspiracy theories.  

  However, the White House suggested that pictures of bin Laden’s body were too    “gruesome” to be made public because they could prove “inflammatory”.  

  Relations between the US and Pakistan, already strained by the fact that    Pakistan was not told in advance about the raid, were put under renewed    pressure by contradictory statements from Islamabad. It came as: 





Osama Bin Laden dead: White House backtracks on how bin Laden died - Telegraph

----------


## FailSafe

> what's the mockers ?


I have no idea either.

Moog is a bit of a nut-swinger and he gets aroused when he sees two men having an argument and likes to work his way into the periphery of it- he's best ignored.

----------


## Butterfly

> “We have a visual on Geronimo,” Mr Panetta added minutes later.


interesting choice of words,




> where facial recognition software gave a 95 per cent certainty that it was the al-Qaeda leader.


since they all look the same, that's quite weak evidence

----------


## FailSafe

> then how did they positively identify him to shoot him?


I didn't say they did- he was a man standing in a room in a house which was the site of an active firefight- anybody on their feet would have been a target.

----------


## Butterfly

> Did you see the video of the inside of the house? It was as dim as a cave, and that was after everything had cleared- you didn't have to be there to actually get a sense of what went on (look at the assumptions you've made, which are based on absolutely nothing- at least I'm working from available evidence... if that evidence is later contradicted, OK, but it's not something I pulled out of my ass, which is your specialty).


you must have missed the memo,




> They were told 'We think we found Osama bin Laden, and your job is to kill him’,

----------


## good2bhappy

beggining to sound like an American hit squad operating in another sovreign country contrary to American Legal Doctrine

----------


## Butterfly

> was taken into custody with several of the terrorist’s children


I think they should put the children in Gitmo and put them under torture, it's obvious they are valuable assets

that's the American way,

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Originally Posted by The_Ghost_Of_The_Moog
> 
> Failsafe put the mockers on/willies up Ant Robertson
> 
> 
> what's the mockers ?


O Yes, he put his mockers firmly on Ant, and laid down the smack when Ant mused about his warrior credentials. In fact  may or even may not have said that FS was a 'coward' then Ant refused to withdraw (nor confirm) the remark when FS said he was going possibly to beat up Ant if he didn't repeat the allegation, - as he does boxing or something, in some kind of upcountry hardman gymnasium with sweaty musky jockstraps and big punchbags and great massive deltoids and pecs heaving and grunting, ......or not, ...or maybe. 

So if thats as clear as the Osama assassination, then we're doing well.

So don't say FS is a coward, else you'll have to smell what he's cooking. It bugs him most totally.

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by FailSafe
> 
> It was as dim as a cave
> 
> 
> then how did they positively identify him to shoot him?


Who knows, but they did. 
I'm guessing they had torches (flashlights to you yanks) duct taped to their rifles.

----------


## FailSafe

> you must have missed the memo,  Quote: Originally Posted by Koojo They were told 'We think we found Osama bin Laden, and your job is to kill him,


So NOW you're prepared to believe what you read (a quote from an unnamed official) because it supports your argument- nice. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

I don't know- it could be true- I have no doubt they were ready to kill him with the slightest provocation, but I don't believe he was executed.

Again, we need to see the tape.

----------


## FailSafe

Christ, Moog, you're a fucking fag- are you STILL erect over that? It didn't involve you (though you seemed to do a fair bit of masturbating over it)- it ended last year- let it go. :Smile:

----------


## FailSafe

> Who knows, but they did. I'm guessing they had torches (flashlights to you yanks) duct taped to their rifles.


So in the second or two it takes to identify a target and shoot, they were supposed to shine a light on his face and know positively it was him?  Not very likely.

----------


## dirtydog

> President Barack Obama’s spokesman admitting “he was unarmed”


Those big brave merikans, they really do have a thing for killing unarmed people and innocent civilians don't they.

----------


## good2bhappy

It would be useful if they released the footage
However it might be embarrassing material

----------


## FailSafe

> It would be useful if they released the footage
> However it might be embarrassing material


Maybe- I think they're preparing to do so, though- I found the quick admission that bin Laden was unarmed to be very surprising- I'm guessing they're getting their comments straight in preparation for the official (or leaked) release.

----------


## robuzo

Noriega, Saddam, and Osama- all had stories to tell that certain people would not want heard, and not only in the US of A.

Very interesting take on likely cause of Osama's redundancy:
Asia Times Online :: South Asia news, business and economy from India and Pakistan

Osama a casualty of the Arab revolt
By Spengler 

More surprising than the death of Osama bin Laden on Monday was the fact that he lived unmolested in a mansion in Abbottabad, about 65 kilometers north of the Pakistani capital Islamabad. How many Pakistani officials and others must have known about this? "America can do whatever we set out mind to," President Barack Obama intoned in his May 1 announcement of Bin Laden's death at the hands during a strike by Pakistani and American special forces. 

Not, apparently, without a little help from its friends, and remarkably belated help at that. 

Normally I do not speculate on operational matters; to solicit information on secret matters even from very good sources is like telling Pinocchio, "Lie to me." Some considerations here are obvious, though, even without the usual disinformation. It is hard to conclude otherwise that Bin Laden died this week because people who knew his whereabouts chose this particular moment to inform the US authorities. What has changed? The simple answer is: everything has changed. Instability in the Muslim world has reached a level that makes Bin Laden redundant.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> So in the second or two it takes to identify a target and shoot, they were supposed to shine a light on his face and know positively it was him?  Not very likely.


Are assassins supposed to ID targets before blasting their heads off.

Um .....yeah. 

Its part of the hitman's job description. Else you might as well just take a bazooka in there.

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> Who knows, but they did. I'm guessing they had torches (flashlights to you yanks) duct taped to their rifles.
> 
> 
> So in the second or two it takes to identify a target and shoot, they were supposed to shine a light on his face and know positively it was him?  Not very likely.


Point is, whether they were supposed to or not, they did. 
Not to mention they were probably going to kill every adult male in there who didn't lie belly down flat on the floor anyway.
Are you pissed they didn't fill out the elfnsafety forms and wait for an inspector?
They probably don't have much time to mull things over in the heat of the moment.
I think it's a credit to them that despite there being a lot of women and Children in the compound none were killed (as far as we know so far).

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> civilian defense courses advocating murders ? I highly doubt that,
> 
> 
> It's not 'advocating murder'- the point is made that if you are in a life-threatening situation where you feel you need to defend yourself with deadly force, if you shoot, shoot to kill (you're always taught to go for center-mass)- you are NEVER taught to go for an arm or leg. 
> 
> I know your natural inclination would be to surrender, but that rarely works.


You only use the Knee-cap technique when you are trying to convey point to the individual or trying to get his attention  :Smile:

----------


## FailSafe

> Are assassins supposed to ID targets before blasting their heads off.


Better- if you've got something relevant to say, great- leave the useless old shit from different forums out of it.

Assassins?  I would imagine so.

There were (highly-trained) soldiers fighting in a _house_- the potential targets would have been anyone not on their team.

There were kids in the house- I didn't hear about any of them getting hurt- one of his wives was wounded but not killed- obviously there was some sort of target recognition.

A man standing in a room would absolutely have been a target- even if the assumption (or actual knowledge) was that it was bin Laden, the fact that he was on his feet (and possibly making some sort of move that was either aggressive or made in an attempt to escape) caused him to be shot.

That's the official word, at any rate- now hopefully the tape will show the truth.

----------


## Spin

> The White House revealed that one issue preventing the release of photos of bin Laden's body after the shooting was concern that they could be "inflammatory"


And the USA going into a sovereign nation unannounced and uninvited with the intention to murder somebody is not "inflammatory" in itself?

 :rofl:  They really believe their shit doesn't stink don't they.

----------


## Cujo

> Hi
> 
>   You can find this info by using search box in the top of website with some keywords related before posting questions.


What?

----------


## rickschoppers

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> President Barack Obamas spokesman admitting he was unarmed
> 
> 
> Those big brave merikans, they really do have a thing for killing unarmed people and innocent civilians don't they.


Whoa, back up DD. Are you calling OBL an innocent civilian?

----------


## FailSafe

> Originally Posted by FailSafe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Koojo
> ...



I agree with you- I think if bin Laden had gotten down on the floor, he would still be alive- I also think he would much rather have been shot than captured- if the reports are true, it seems he made a choice.

----------


## ceburat

I think the two runners of OBL should have been taken alive. They would  be full of information and willing to talk with a little push.

----------


## danno

wonder what us gov will use now to keep voters putting x in right box. sad that the death of one man is all they have to be proud. any one think it will change anything, or do american people have the wit to know better.

----------


## Thormaturge

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> President Barack Obamas spokesman admitting he was unarmed
> 
> 
> Those big brave merikans, they really do have a thing for killing unarmed people and innocent civilians don't they.


 2000 years ago the Romans nailed the good guy to a cross.  At least, on this occasion,  Americans seem to know the difference between hostile and friendly targets.  Who do you trust, Italians or Americans?

 Tough choice, I know, and anything has to e better than the French army who are probably preparing terms of their surrender to Gadhaffi.

----------


## Dan

It seems pretty clear, despite Captain America's protestations that the poor lambs of the American special forces faced a mortal threat when confronted by a lanky, unarmed geriatric with a renal condition, that this was a targeted assassination. The Americans certainly have the power and – sadly – the desire to kill named individuals around the world but that's utterly unrelated to the justice of exercising this power, the defence of which seems to be that he was a bad man so he deserved to get shot. Well, despite the weird, paint-by-numbers Manichean moral world which the American media, and large parts of the American public, inhabit, the reality is that the real world doesn't sit on a moral see-saw with big bad Osama on one end and the virtuous blue-eyed warriors for democracy on the other. Some say that he was at war with America but this wasn't a battlefield killing and if it's acceptable to blur the boundaries of conflict in this manner then surely it's fine for, for example, the Taliban to make targeted assassinations of American or British soldiers when they're off duty and in bed in Idaho or Basingstoke. Of course, if they did do this, you could write the completely predictable faked-up outrage about 'cowardly islamo-fascists' right now (from the same people who, incidentally, seem to think that the hallmark of bravery is fighting an enemy – and killing civilians – from an air-conditioned office thousands of miles away). Unless there's really compelling evidence that the soldiers on the scene faced an immediate threat to their lives and that that alone is why Osama was assassinated, this was a terrible mistake. Surely the virtue of liberal democracies against the theocratic horrors dreamt up by people like Osama is exactly that they don't go around killing people because it happens to be convenient to do so (and yes, putting Osama on trial would be difficult but the right road is usually not the same as the easy road); their virtue is that they respect the rule of law and the sanctity of life and if Osama's last act on earth is – yet again – to bring both the American state and the American people a little bit closer to his level...well, that's not something to cheer about.

----------


## dirtydog

> Whoa, back up DD. Are you calling OBL an innocent civilian?


Don't you read the news? The daily deaths of innocent civilians killed by _friendly_ fire.




> US drone attacks killed 18
> Two missiles fired by a suspected US drone near the Afghan border in north-west Pakistan hit a house of a local tribesman.

----------


## koman

I wonder if the Navy Seals get to read this forum.  It's very entertaining having US covert military operations explained and dissected by a bunch of retired bus drivers from Luton and a Belgian plumber...... :Smile:

----------


## Thormaturge

I look forward to the video footage, and especially the part from the American Humane Society certifying that no animals were harmed during the making of the film.

----------


## Cujo

> It seems pretty clear, despite Captain America's protestations that the poor lambs of the American special forces faced a mortal threat when confronted by a lanky, unarmed geriatric with a renal condition, that this was a targeted assassination. The Americans certainly have the power and  sadly  the desire to kill named individuals around the world but that's utterly unrelated to the justice of exercising this power, the defence of which seems to be that he was a bad man so he deserved to get shot. Well, despite the weird, paint-by-numbers Manichean moral world which the American media, and large parts of the American public, inhabit, the reality is that the real world doesn't sit on a moral see-saw with big bad Osama on one end and the virtuous blue-eyed warriors for democracy on the other. Some say that he was at war with America but this wasn't a battlefield killing and if it's acceptable to blur the boundaries of conflict in this manner then surely it's fine for, for example, the Taliban to make targeted assassinations of American or British soldiers when they're off duty and in bed in Idaho or Basingstoke. Of course, if they did do this, you could write the completely predictable faked-up outrage about 'cowardly islamo-fascists' right now (from the same people who, incidentally, seem to think that the hallmark of bravery is fighting an enemy  and killing civilians  from an air-conditioned office thousands of miles away). Unless there's really compelling evidence that the soldiers on the scene faced an immediate threat to their lives and that that alone is why Osama was assassinated, this was a terrible mistake. Surely the virtue of liberal democracies against the theocratic horrors dreamt up by people like Osama is exactly that they don't go around killing people because it happens to be convenient to do so (and yes, putting Osama on trial would be difficult but the right road is usually not the same as the easy road); their virtue is that they respect the rule of law and the sanctity of life and if Osama's last act on earth is  yet again  to bring both the American state and the American people a little bit closer to his level...well, that's not something to cheer about.


On the other hand, a very strong "don't fuck with us" message can be useful.
Is there any doubt he wasn't guilty? (or at least wouldn't have been found guilty).
This just saves a lot of time and money.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

OBL being shot has really upset the anti American on posters here for sure, great news as far as I and the majority of sane people in the world are concerned!  :rofl: 

Who gives a shit whether he was armed or not? were the innocents slaughtered in 9/11 armed?

So carry on crying in your beer it's not going to change the fact that one piece of human garbage isn't around anymore!  :St George: 

Some posters here haven't the wit to understand the intelligence information to be gleaned from finding his lair is a major step forward towards tracking other fanatical muzzie turds down!

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> I wonder if the Navy Seals get to read this forum.  It's very entertaining having US covert military operations explained and dissected by a bunch of retired bus drivers from Luton and a Belgian plumber......


Except it ceases to be covert when Obama pens such a self-referential speech that the worn-out "I" button must have fallen off his laptop.

If it was so covert , they would have chucked him in the sea and never spoken another word, simply happy that he was gone. If the Politicians want to create a media circus, - thats fine, but they must be prepared to be questioned and not just adored.

----------


## Dan

> This just saves a lot of time and money.


Exactly. As I said, America has killed because it's convenient to do so. I wish it weren't the case and America doesn't have to be this way but, as other have said, you may as well forget all talk of democracy and terrorists and talk simply of us and them. That's all this is.



> On the other hand, a very strong "don't fuck with us" message can be useful.


American policy seems to have been reduced to this, and this alone.

----------


## Cujo

> I look forward to the video footage, and especially the part from the American Humane Society certifying that no animals were harmed during the making of the film.


They killed at least one we know of.

----------


## dirtydog

> On the other hand, a very strong "don't fuck with us" message can be useful.


Yeah, the highly professional idiots crashed a helicopter and then shot unarmed people, real pros aint they  :Smile:

----------


## Cujo

> This just saves a lot of time and money.
> 			
> 		
> 
> Exactly. As I said, America kills because it's convenient to do so. I wish it weren't the case and America doesn't have to be this way but, as other have said, you may as well forget all talk of democracy and terrorists and talk simply of us and them. That's all this is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you think that if Obama had been bought to trial there is ANY chance he would have got off with a good lawyer?

----------


## rickschoppers

Dan, I find your comments so far off the mark, but there seems to be some individuals here that forget what happened on 9/11. How would everyone feel if someone thought up a plan to fly a plane into a Manchester United game killing over 3,000 innocent spectators? Or into any other venue that occurs in your homeland with a result of the mass murder of thousands of bystanders. What would all your flip comments and sympathetic tones sound like then? I would venture to say every one of you would have the same feeling the American public had when they watched two airliners plow into the twin towers of New York. With people leaping to their deaths so that they would not be burnt alive in a fire that could not be fought by firefighters. What would you all feel at that point? Would you think killing the person who planned this event deserved a trial, if caught and a funeral with all the tributes of a hero? Several of the posters understand a small amount of how that feels and they are not Americans. Good for them. 
Really, some of you tin heads really stoop pretty low by forgetting who we are all taking about. He was not a person that deserved any rights or even humane in our way of thinking. He was responsible for more deaths than most of us can even understand. I am glad he is dust and I am happy the earth is rid of him whether he was assasinated or not. Who cares, he is history and no longer able to plot to kill British, French, Belgian, American or any other humans on this earth. 
Before making a martyr out of this guy and giving him any kind of rights he does not deserve, think about what he has done first. I apologize for my ramble but I had to get this said.

----------


## good2bhappy

The Rule of Law is what makes us civilised

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> The Rule of Law is what makes us civilised


Correct. It is refraining from stooping to the level of wuffians and beasts that separates us from them.

----------


## Dan

Rick, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood my post so I suggest you read it again.

----------


## rickschoppers

Dan, it is not just your comments, but the ones of many others that set me off. Sorry if it appeared I was picking on only you.

----------


## Dan

> Do you think that if Obama had been bought to trial there is ANY chance he would have got off with a good lawyer?


Theoretically, yes but practically no. I think he should have been tried for the reasons the allies tried the Nazis - somewhat differently and incomparably worse - at the end of WW2. The Nuremberg trials were pretty dodgy but it was far, far better to have the trials than simply to shoot all the senior Nazis out of hand.

----------


## Dan

> Dan, it is not just your comments, but the ones of many others that set me off. Sorry if it appeared I was picking on only you.


I'm not worried about you 'picking on' me. I'm a big boy. I'm worried about the fact that you don't seem to have understood what I wrote.

----------


## good2bhappy

This affair is going to legally question Executive Order 11905

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> On the other hand, a very strong "don't fuck with us" message can be useful.
> 
> 
> Yeah, the highly professional idiots crashed a helicopter and then shot unarmed people, real pros aint they


I don't think we know for sure that everyone in the joint was unarmed, do we? It would be odd for a compound like that not to have armed security, including weapons capable of dropping a helicopter. It is described in some of the real-time twitter messages as having been shot down.

Just because Osama wasn't armed, and there may never have been any intention to take him alive, doesn't mean there was nobody else shooting back at the raiders.

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> On the other hand, a very strong "don't fuck with us" message can be useful.
> 
> 
> Yeah, the highly professional idiots crashed a helicopter and then shot unarmed people, real pros aint they


They went in, assassinated their target and got out with all his intelligence in 40 minutes with no casualities.
So it wasn't smooth sailing all the way, still, pretty well done I'd say.
No women or children were killed.
Do you think maybe they should have sat down for a nice cup of tea and chided him?
It was always going to be this.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Just because Osama wasn't armed, and there may never have been any intention to take him alive, doesn't mean there was nobody else shooting back at the raiders.


I'm not aware of any provision of international law that the US Army is allowed to invade a person's home, and then if they resist or attempt to defend themselves, the US Army is then allowed to open fire and kill everyone.

----------


## good2bhappy

This might help
Following the September 11. 2001, attacks, the White House said the presidential directive banning assassinations would not prevent the United States from acting in self-defense.
According to an October 21, 2001, Washington Post article, President Bush in September of last year signed an intelligence "finding" instructing the CIA to engage in "lethal covert operations" to destroy Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda organization.

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
> 
> Just because Osama wasn't armed, and there may never have been any intention to take him alive, doesn't mean there was nobody else shooting back at the raiders.
> 
> 
> I'm not aware of any provision of international law that the US Army is allowed to invade a person's home, and then if they resist or attempt to defend themselves, the US Army is then allowed to open fire and kill everyone.


Obviously. 
You need to be better informed.

----------


## robuzo

> Really, some of you tin heads really stoop pretty low by forgetting who we are all taking about. He was not a person that deserved any rights or even humane in our way of thinking. He was responsible for more deaths than most of us can even understand. I am glad he is dust and I am happy the earth is rid of him whether he was assasinated or not. Who cares, he is history and no longer able to plot to kill British, French, Belgian, American or any other humans on this earth. 
> Before making a martyr out of this guy and giving him any kind of rights he does not deserve, think about what he has done first. I apologize for my ramble but I had to get this said.


They wanted what was on his computer, so would it be strange to think they didn't want what was in his head? This doesn't have to boil down to human rights issues at all, but rather in what state a neutralized Osama would be of more value- or more of a liability. Their taking the first opportunity to kill him (if that is what happened) seems just as odd as availing themselves of the first chance to chain a brick to his feet and dump him into the drink. Why assassinate if capture is possible? Why dispose of the body when already in total possession of access to it?

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by Dan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				This just saves a lot of time and money.
> ...


*Osama* might have been found not guilty on some technicality--with a really good lawyer;  but* Obama*...no way they would fry him for sure... :Smile:

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> The Rule of Law is what makes us civilised


That fact didn't appear to occur for one second to OBL, so why introduce it here?

----------


## Dan

> Originally Posted by good2bhappy
> 
> The Rule of Law is what makes us civilised
> 
> 
> That fact didn't appear to occur for one second to OBL, so why introduce it here?


Well, I happen to think that the American state - despite its flaws - does not inhabit the same moral sphere as Osama Bin Laden. It seems that you do.

----------


## Carrabow

> I think the two runners of OBL should have been taken alive. They would be full of information and willing to talk with a little push.


 If enough intel was gathered, what is to say that there is not a list of individuals they are looking for? 

If I had to put money on it there are several individuals on the run!

----------


## koman

> The Rule of Law is what makes us civilised


Laws are for law abiding people.  Locks only keep out honest people.  Civilization  is a very thin veneer. Even the most civilized nations are willing and capable of ruthless behavior at times.

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
> 
> Just because Osama wasn't armed, and there may never have been any intention to take him alive, doesn't mean there was nobody else shooting back at the raiders.
> 
> 
> I'm not aware of any provision of international law that the US Army is allowed to invade a person's home, and then if they resist or attempt to defend themselves, the US Army is then allowed to open fire and kill everyone.


This happened in Pakistan with Pakistani cooperation. They are not complaining. Why invoke international law, such as it is?

----------


## Carrabow

> It seems pretty clear, despite Captain America's protestations that the poor lambs of the American special forces faced a mortal threat when confronted by a lanky, unarmed geriatric with a renal condition, that this was a targeted assassination. .


 Do you remeber Joseph Mengele? They were gonna do the same to him no matter how old he got. 

Certain actions are warranted.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Originally Posted by Dan
> 
> 
> It seems pretty clear, despite Captain America's protestations that the poor lambs of the American special forces faced a mortal threat when confronted by a lanky, unarmed geriatric with a renal condition, that this was a targeted assassination. .
> 
> 
>  Do you remeber Joseph Mengele? They were gonna do the same to him no matter how old he got. 
> 
> Certain actions are warranted.


Yes, they are symbolic. 

Symbols of evil.

And thats why when you finally nail them you don't just chuck them away in the sea. You make a big deal out of it, because it is a big deal.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Well, I happen to think that the American state - despite its flaws - does not inhabit the same moral sphere as Osama Bin Laden. It seems that you do.


Your reasoning is obviously flawed..."moral sphere" WTF are you spouting about and to be totally blunt nobody gives a FF about your pious thinking! 

To judge any nation as a whole by it's politicians / administration and to add that OBL occupied the moral high ground just shows how silly you really are.

OBL declared war on the USA and he was killed in that war, simple! 

As I said beore OBL was nothing more than a murdering piece of human garbage and he got what he deserved, unfortunately for the world it took far too long to give him what he so richly deserved.

----------


## dirtydog

> Do you think that if Obama had been bought to trial there is ANY chance he would have got off with a good lawyer?


This must be the dumbest post of the day, he wouldn't have had a trial, they would have just locked him up in some secret torture camp as they normally do  :Smile:

----------


## Carrabow

> I wonder if the Navy Seals get to read this forum. It's very entertaining having US covert military operations explained and dissected by a bunch of retired bus drivers from Luton and a Belgian plumber......


 
Why?

They would understand that the average civilian has no clue as to what it takes for their freedoms and way of life. They would shrug it off and go about their business.

Or comment to something of the effect of: "Put yourself in my shoes"

----------


## FarangRed

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> Do you think that if Obama had been bought to trial there is ANY chance he would have got off with a good lawyer?
> 
> 
> This must be the dumbest post of the day, he wouldn't have had a trial, they would have just locked him up in some secret torture camp as they normally do


Like the ones in Thailand?

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by Carrabow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Dan
> ...


You surely do not want a Martyr running around do you. Or should we stuff him like a prized trophy? Get real, now he is a memory.

----------


## Dan

> Your reasoning is obviously flawed..."moral sphere" WTF are you spouting about and to be totally blunt nobody gives a FF about your pious thinking!


You and I are both talking about morality..but how is my reasoning flawed? I can't see any obvious flaws in what I wrote.




> To judge any nation as a whole by it's politicians / administration and to add that OBL occupied the moral high ground just shows how silly you really are.


Where did I say that? 




> OBL declared war on the USA and he was killed in that war, simple!


Maybe but then don't complain about bombs in barrack towns in England or America.

----------


## Dan

> Originally Posted by Dan
> 
> 
> It seems pretty clear, despite Captain America's protestations that the poor lambs of the American special forces faced a mortal threat when confronted by a lanky, unarmed geriatric with a renal condition, that this was a targeted assassination. .
> 
> 
>  Do you remeber Joseph Mengele? They were gonna do the same to him no matter how old he got. 
> 
> Certain actions are warranted.


I'm not sure what your point is. Mengele was never caught, unlike, for example, Eichmann, who was and who was put on trial.

----------


## PlanK

> It wasn't 'random fire'- he was shot dead because he wasn't on the ground and resisted.
> 
> The first thing they teach you is not to shoot to wound, but to kill- this ain't the 'Old West'- you don't aim for the arm- it's the head or center-mass.


They also train special forces to do capture/abduct missions.  Taking down and restraining unarmed people is done everyday by police officers with a taser and a pair of handcuffs.  There's no reason why they couldn't have done it, unless they didn't want to, or care.

Whatever the team's orders were, they seem to have done a better job of it than the pollies are doing keeping their story straight.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> You surely do not want a Martyr running around do you. Or should we stuff him like a prized trophy? Get real, now he is a memory.


He isn't running anywhere. And wasn't apparently for 6 years, but they had to get him - mainly for symbolic reasons and to serve justice. 

However, as usual the politicians have cacked it up - by destroying the inconvenient evidence. Now, instead of showing a cleaned-up body, they'll have to show the death video and stills of him missing half his skull.

He can still be a martyr. No need for a body for that. The US has never reflected on its cosseting of the Saud dictatorship even though the 911 hijackers were mostly Saudi as was Osama. Their US support remains as inconrguous as ever

----------


## FailSafe

> They also train special forces to do capture/abduct missions. Taking down and restraining unarmed people is done everyday by police officers with a taser and a pair of handcuffs. There's no reason why they couldn't have done it, unless they didn't want to, or care.


Those missions may exist (and this may in fact have possibly been one- I wouldn't bet on it, but possibly), but even on those, if you have to fire your gun at someone, you shoot to kill, not wound.

Bin Laden was perceived as a threat (who knows if he was personally ID'd?), and he was shot- if he'd been down on the ground, he most likely would not have been.

Again, we need to see the tape.

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by The_Ghost_Of_The_Moog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Carrabow
> ...


How would he have been "running around" had he been captured? How demoralizing to his supporters had he started talking, not to mention the information he might have provided? 

Was the initial story of his fighting back told as an excuse for killing him when there were orders to try not to? Or was the story changed because the US is attempting to suppress the image of Osama going down fighting? The image of a heroic death burnishes the martyr's image. It's bad enough that in life the man achieved pretty much everything he set out to (inducing the US to engage in foreign policy folly at great cost in blood, treasure, and good will). His followers are people who profess to see glory in dying for a cause rather than living humbly for it. For the hero to surrender post-betrayal would have looked much worse to them than dying gun in hand.

----------


## FarangRed

At least he got to see the royal wedding before he went out.

----------


## escaped

> ^^
> To bury the body at sea is a great choice. Why would you risk his escape or worse yet, take him to trial in today's world? .


 
Uhmmm,...........he was dead already in case you hadn't noticed yet.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

Osama is far more powerful now he's dead.

A bit like Obi Wan Kenobi.

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by ceburat
> 
> 
> I think the two runners of OBL should have been taken alive. They would be full of information and willing to talk with a little push.
> 
> 
>  If enough intel was gathered, what is to say that there is not a list of individuals they are looking for? 
> 
> If I had to put money on it there are several individuals on the run!


Men in long dresses with beards, all over over the place, listening for the sound of helicopter blades, or the whine of an incoming missile......makes yer heart glow don't it... :Smile:

----------


## dirtydog

> listening for the sound of helicopter blades, or the whine of an incoming missile......makes yer heart glow don't it


More likely the sound of a helicopter crash landing due to ineptitude.

----------


## BobR

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> 
> I wonder if the Navy Seals get to read this forum. It's very entertaining having US covert military operations explained and dissected by a bunch of retired bus drivers from Luton and a Belgian plumber......
> 
> 
>  
> Why?
> 
> ...


They killed an unarmed man who was not convicted to die in a court of law after a fair and just trial.  I may catch hell for this, but fuck them, they are no better than he is.
We gave people trials as part of justice, that's why America used to be special.  If the Government gets away with this, targeting American citizens will be next.  Just open the door to Government and freedom runs out.

----------


## robuzo

> They killed an unarmed man


It's possible they are lying about the "unarmed" part, for reasons I suggest above. It may be a while before we learn what actually happened, if we ever do.

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by Carrabow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by ceburat
> ...


Let 'em eat Cake...

----------


## Tom Sawyer

*-- Another thought provoking piece by one of the world's greatest Middle East specialty journalists.*

*Robert Fisk: Was he betrayed? Of course. Pakistan knew Bin Laden's hiding place all along*

The Independent - Tuesday, 3 May 2011


A middle-aged nonentity, a political failure outstripped by history  by the millions of Arabs demanding freedom and democracy in the Middle East  died in Pakistan yesterday. And then the world went mad. 


Fresh from providing us with a copy of his birth certificate, the American President turned up in the middle of the night to provide us with a live-time death certificate for Osama bin Laden, killed in a town named after a major in the army of the old British Empire. A single shot to the head, we were told. But the body's secret flight to Afghanistan, an equally secret burial at sea? The weird and creepy disposal of the body  no shrines, please  was almost as creepy as the man and his vicious organisation. 

The Americans were drunk with joy. David Cameron thought it "a massive step forward". India described it as a "victorious milestone". "A resounding triumph," Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu boasted. But after 3,000 American dead on 9/11, countless more in the Middle East, up to half a million Muslims dead in Iraq and Afghanistan and 10 years trying to find Bin Laden, pray let us have no more "resounding triumphs". Revenge attacks? Perhaps they will come, by the little groupuscules in the West, who have no direct contact with al-Qa'ida. Be sure, someone is already dreaming up a "Brigade of the Martyr Osama bin Laden". Maybe in Afghanistan, among the Taliban. 

But the mass revolutions in the Arab world over the past four months mean that al-Qa'ida was already politically dead. Bin Laden told the world  indeed, he told me personally  that he wanted to destroy the pro-Western regimes in the Arab world, the dictatorships of the Mubaraks and the Ben Alis. He wanted to create a new Islamic Caliphate. But these past few months, millions of Arab Muslims rose up and were prepared for their own martyrdom  not for Islam but for freedom and liberty and democracy. Bin Laden didn't get rid of the tyrants. The people did. And they didn't want a caliph. 

I met the man three times and have only one question left unasked: what did he think as he watched those revolutions unfold this year  under the flags of nations rather than Islam, Christians and Muslims together, the kind of people his own al-Qa'ida men were happy to butcher? 

In his own eyes, his achievement was the creation of al-Qa'ida, the institution which had no card-carrying membership. You just woke up in the morning, wanted to be in al-Qa'ida  and you were. He was the founder. But he was never a hands-on warrior. There was no computer in his cave, no phone calls to set bombs off. While the Arab dictators ruled uncontested with our support, they largely avoided condemning American policy; only Bin Laden said these things. Arabs never wanted to fly planes into tall buildings, but they did admire a man who said what they wanted to say. But now, increasingly, they can say these things. They don't need Bin Laden. He had become a nonentity. 

But talking of caves, Bin Laden's demise does bring Pakistan into grim focus. For months, President Ali Zardari has been telling us that Bin Laden was living in a cave in Afghanistan. Now it turns out he was living in a mansion in Pakistan. Betrayed? Of course he was. By the Pakistan military or the Pakistan Inter-Services Intelligence? Quite possibly both. Pakistan knew where he was. 

Not only was Abbottabad the home of the country's military college  the town was founded by Major James Abbott of the British Army in 1853  but it is headquarters of Pakistan's Northern Army Corps' 2nd Division. Scarcely a year ago, I sought an interview with another "most wanted man"  the leader of the group believed responsible for the Mumbai massacres. I found him in the Pakistani city of Lahore  guarded by uniformed Pakistani policemen holding machine guns. 
Of course, there is one more obvious question unanswered: couldn't they have captured Bin Laden? Didn't the CIA or the Navy Seals or the US Special Forces or whatever American outfit killed him have the means to throw a net over the tiger? "Justice," Barack Obama called his death. In the old days, of course, "justice" meant due process, a court, a hearing, a defence, a trial. Like the sons of Saddam, Bin Laden was gunned down. Sure, he never wanted to be taken alive  and there were buckets of blood in the room in which he died. 

But a court would have worried more people than Bin Laden. After all, he might have talked about his contacts with the CIA during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, or about his cosy meetings in Islamabad with Prince Turki, Saudi Arabia's head of intelligence. Just as Saddam  who was tried for the murder of a mere 153 people rather than thousands of gassed Kurds  was hanged before he had the chance to tell us about the gas components that came from America, his friendship with Donald Rumsfeld, the US military assistance he received when he invaded Iran in 1980.(more>)
</EM>

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> You and I are both talking about morality..but how is my reasoning flawed? I can't see any obvious flaws in what I wrote.


I'm not talking about morality I'm talking about commonsense and your reasoning is flawed because you should never try to compare a nation as a whole or their democratic administration with and individual like OBL there's nothing to compare.




> Where did I say that?





> Originally Posted by Dan    "Well, I happen to think that the American state - despite its flaws - does not inhabit the same moral sphere as Osama Bin Laden. It seems that you do".


Maybe you would like to expand on what you posted? because after reading it again it's still ambigous and further explain why you said I thought the USA inhabited the same "moral sphere"?




> Maybe but then don't complain about bombs in barrack towns in England or America.


No "maybe" about it OBL declared war and you know he did. 

Quite WTF "bombs in barrack towns" has to do with what we're discussing God only knows? Anyone with using commonsense would agree (I hope) that killing innocent people for a political cause is unjust, morally wrong even obscene, OBL was all there and he wasn't an innocent and at the risk of repeating myself he declared a war and he was killed in that war, simple!

----------


## Tom Sawyer

^^ Great lead line:

*Fresh from providing us with a copy of his birth certificate, the American President turned up in the middle of the night to provide us with a live-time death certificate for Osama bin Laden*, killed in a town named after a major in the army of the old British Empire. A single shot to the head, we were told. But the body's secret flight to Afghanistan, an equally secret burial at sea? The weird and creepy disposal of the body – no shrines, please – was almost as creepy as the man and his vicious organisation.

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by Carrabow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Dan
> ...


There were several groups who wanted him exterminated at all costs and would have obliged if given the opportunity.

Point, what are we supposed to do? Spend money on senseless trial? Incarcerate him for life? He is lucky he got off they way he did. 

Watch some nut job say we need to rehabilitate him...

----------


## FailSafe

> Fresh from providing us with a copy of his birth certificate, the American President turned up in the middle of the night to provide us with a live-time death certificate for Osama bin Laden

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Osama is far more powerful now he's dead.


Disagree with you on that.  :Confused: 




> A bit like Obi Wan Kenobi.


Agree with you on this, he really was a Star!  :Smile:

----------


## robuzo

> ^^ Great lead line:
> 
> *Fresh from providing us with a copy of his birth certificate, the American President turned up in the middle of the night to provide us with a live-time death certificate for Osama bin Laden*, killed in a town named after a major in the army of the old British Empire. A single shot to the head, we were told. But the body's secret flight to Afghanistan, an equally secret burial at sea? The weird and creepy disposal of the body  no shrines, please  was almost as creepy as the man and his vicious organisation.


It's of a piece with Spengler's "redundancy" essay I linked above, less dry, and in some ways less deep in terms of foreign policy maneuverings but still good. Osama apparently had outlived his usefulness to the Saudis and the Pakistanis, at least, as well as perhaps to the oppressed masses in the Middle East, who have become well-sick of princes living in splendor and pursuing vanity projects while they struggle to survive. How a self-indulgent, spoiled princeling with Daddy issues ever became a hero to the common man is something of a mystery to me- and in this case I refer to Osama, not W, just to be clear.

----------


## TafkaB

There's only one man wise enough to judge the rights and wrongs of this situation.


Where are you Britmaveric?

----------


## Dan

> I'm not talking about morality.


You are. You're saying that killing Osama is justified. That's a moral claim. Really, whether or not you recognise it as that, it just is.



> Maybe you would like to expand on what you posted? because after reading  it again it's still ambigous and further explain why you said I thought  the USA inhabited the same "moral sphere"?


This was, I think, made in response to your comparison of Osama and the Americans. If Osama decided to act without regard to law, then if the Americans also act without regard to law, and if there's no justification for the Americans doing this (and, as most posts on here claim, it just happens to be more expedient), they are in the same moral sphere.  (And note that I didn't say that they are the same, in case that's how you read it.)



> No "maybe" about it OBL declared war and you know he did.


Not in any legal sense but if the American's accept this state of war and also accept that you can conduct it by off-site assassinations, then that works both ways. Or at least I can't see why it shouldn't, any claims to justice on the part of the Americans having worn out a long time ago.



> Anyone with using commonsense would agree (I hope) that killing innocent  people for a political cause is unjust, morally wrong even obscene.


Indeed, but that's war, whether or not it's fought by 'us' or 'them'. I'm happy to make those judgements about beardy-weirdos but I'm also happy to make them about our brave boys.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> there were several groups who wanted him exterminated at all costs and would have obliged if given the oppertunity.


Or even the "opportunity"!  :Smile: 




> Point, what are we supposed to do? Spend money on senseless trial? Incarcerate him for life? He is lucky he got off they way he did.


Agree with you and it's common sense and money well spent to get rid of him. Saying that....I do think feeding his body to pigs without ceremony might have been a better way to dispose of the trash.





> Watch some nut job say we need to rehabilitate him...


Had he been found anywhere in the UK, there would have been thousands of appeasers / liboturds lining up to ensure his human rights couldn't be violated!

Followed by the lawyers, social security staff and muzzie councillors to ensure he got what benefits he was entitled to under the European Human rights laws. After all his life was under threat and therefore arguably (from a liboturd point of view) he was entitle to safe haven.
Makes you SO proud to be British!  :rofl:

----------


## Cujo

For all the doubters it looks like the photos will be released soon.
*             CIA director: Bin Laden death photo to be released        * 

*             But Panetta says that the ultimate decision rests with the White House        * 
WASHINGTON — CIA director Leon Panetta  told NBC News Tuesday that a photo proving the death of Osama bin Laden  "would be presented to the public," but the comment quickly drew a  response from the White House saying no decision has yet been made.     
      "The bottom line is that, you know, we got bin Laden and I think we  have to reveal to the rest of the world the fact that we were able to  get him and kill him," Panetta said in an interview with Nightly News.Asked by Reuters about the remarks, a White House spokesman said no  decision had been made about releasing images of bin Laden dead. 
 The White House had earlier expressed concerns about making any death  images of bin Laden public, considering the nature of his fatal wounds.  U.S. officials say the still-secret photographic evidence shows a  precision kill shot above his left eye, which blew away part of his  skull. He was also shot in the chest, they said. 
 The White House said the photograph of a dead Osama bin Laden is "gruesome" and that "it could be inflammatory" if released. 
 White House press secretary Jay Carney said the White House is  mulling whether to make the photo public, but he said officials are  concerned about the "sensitivity" of doing so. Carney said there is a  discussion internally about the most appropriate way to handle but  "there is not some roiling debate here about this." 
         Story: Transcript of interview with CIA director Panetta       Asked if President Barack Obama is involved in the photo discussion,  Carney said the president is involved in every aspect of this issue. 

                    Panetta said the photos leave no question that bin Laden was killed.  "Obviously I've seen those photographs," he said. "We've analyzed them  and there's no question that it's bin Laden."
 The issue of what to do with the "death photos" of bin Laden has been  debated over the past several months, as officials planned the raid on  the terror chief's Pakistan compund, two U.S. officials told NBC News on  Tuesday.
 Neither official disclosed what the outcome of the discussions was  but noted that everyone knew the ultimate decision would rest with the  White House. The same official said he did not expect a decision  Tuesday, but said it would not surprise him that much, NBC News  reported.  
 Meanwhile, U.S. officials were balancing that skepticism with the  sensitivities that might be inflamed by showing images and video of his  burial at sea. 
 "We are going to do everything we can to make sure that nobody has  any basis to try to deny that we got Osama bin Laden," John Brennan,  Obama's counterterrorism adviser, said Monday. He said the U.S. will  "share what we can because we want to make sure that not only the  American people but the world understand exactly what happened." 
PhotoBlog: Bin Laden 'death photo' a fake? In July 2003, the U.S. took heat but also quieted most conspiracy  theorists by releasing graphic photos of the corpses of Iraqi leader  Saddam Hussein's two powerful sons to prove American forces had killed  them. 
 So far, the U.S. has cited evidence that satisfied the Navy SEAL  force, and at least most of the world, that they had the right man in  Abbottabad, Pakistan. 
 The helicopter-borne raiding squad that swarmed the luxury compound  identified bin Laden by appearance. A woman in the compound who was  identified as his wife was said to have called out bin Laden's name in  the melee. 
 Officials produced a quick DNA match from his remains that they said  established bin Laden's identity, even absent the other techniques, with  99.9 percent certainty. U.S. officials also said bin Laden was  identified through photo comparisons and other methods. 
         Story: DNA confirms bin Laden death       Tellingly, an al-Qaida spokesman, in vowing vengeance against  America, called him a martyr, offering no challenge to the U.S. account  of his death. The burial from an aircraft carrier in the North Arabian Sea was  videotaped aboard the ship, according to a senior defense official who  spoke on condition of anonymity because a decision on whether to release  the video was not final. The official said it was highly likely that  the video, along with photographs of bin Laden's body, would be made  public in coming days. 
         Story: Video of bin Laden's sea burial to be released?       Officials said bin Laden was buried at sea because it was the best  option, given tight time constraints. Under Islamic tradition, Muslims  must be buried within 24 hours. Transferring the body to another country  for interment could have taken too long, officials said. 

  "The burial of bin Laden's remains was done in strict conformance with Islamist precepts and practices," said Brennan. 
 The body was transported to the nuclear-powered aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson, which brought him to his final resting place. 
 The U.S. military said preparations for burial began at 1:10 a.m. ET and were completed at 2 a.m. ET.
 His body was washed before being covered. 
 His corpse was lowered toward the sea on one of the aircraft carrier's elevators. 
 "The body was placed in a weighted bag. A military officer read  prepared religious remarks which were translated into Arabic by a native  speaker," a U.S. official said. 
 "After the words were complete, the body was placed on a prepared  flat board, tipped up, whereupon the deceased's body eased into the  sea." 
                    Video: Bin Laden buried at sea       Islamic scholars, however, challenged U.S. assertions that a burial  at sea was an appropriate fate for a Muslim who had died on land. 
 The act denied al-Qaida any sort of burial shrine for their slain  leader. Once again, bin Laden had vanished, but this time at the hands  of the United States and in a way that ensures he is gone forever.
Panetta: Bin Laden death photo to be released - World news - Death of bin Laden - msnbc.com

----------


## BobR

My expectation(before this was announced) would have been if they possibly could have taken him alive they would have, and taken him to Guantanamo to be water borded .  

Think how much information was in his brain when that bullet went through it.

On the other hand, I could be right, the blood may be planted, and Osama may be in Cuba today????  Area 51??  Possible?

----------


## Butterfly

> On the other hand, a very strong "don't fuck with us" message can be useful.


what the fuck are you talking about ? everyone is fucking with you,

you are the laughing stock of the world these days,

----------


## robuzo

> My expectation(before this was announced) would have been if they possibly could have taken him alive they would have, and taken him to Guantanamo to be water borded .  
> 
> Think how much information was in his brain when that bullet went through it.
> 
> On the other hand, I could be right, the blood may be planted, and Osama may be in Cuba today????  Area 51??  Possible?


Not necessary- other scenarios are that they shot him dead in the confusion of battle, or he really was fighting back (along with others) and couldn't safely be taken alive. The initial report was that he fought back, then they walked that back. It makes sense that they would want him alive- they seem all too happy to have the contents of the computer HD(s) from the house, so naturally they would want what was in his head. It also makes sense that they don't want his followers thinking he went down fighting. There is no good reason to believe they are lying about him being dead- proving otherwise would be a PR disaster.

----------


## escaped

> For all the doubters it looks like the photos will be released soon.
> *CIA director: Bin Laden death photo to be released*


Our Photoshop specialists are working overtime to get it finished within the next few days,please be patient.

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## Butterfly

it's funny to see who is American and who is not in this thread,

the simplistic binary thinking and moral relativism speak volume about Americans interpretation of the world

they just don't get it,

you couldn't make that shit up  :rofl:

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## Butterfly

> Our Photoshop specialists are working overtime to get it finished within the next few days,please be patient


it's like the Pentagon video, they cut the shots when the missile hit the building

then you have the usual sheep who just rollover and give up and accept the "official" story because they are tired to think too much

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> On the other hand, a very strong "don't fuck with us" message can be useful.
> 
> 
> what the fuck are you talking about ? everyone is fucking with you,
> 
> you are the laughing stock of the world these days,


Who, me?
Maybe you mean Americans.
You really do have a problem don't you butterfuck, why don't you be a good little frog and go suck some ladyboy cock.
I think all that cum gargling has started to rot your brain.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> You are. You're saying that killing Osama is justified.


Indeed I am....NOT as any moral judgment (your interpreation not mine) as a clear fact of life! Killing OBL who plotted and financed his organisation to kill innocent people all over the world because he believed or thought they didn't fit in or agree with his personal interpretation of the way the world should be was obscene and he certainly didn't deserve the protection from the laws of the countries he strived so hard to destroy.





> This was, I think, made in response to your comparison of Osama and the Americans. If Osama decided to act without regard to law, then if the Americans also act without regard to law, and if there's no justification for the Americans doing this (and, as most posts on here claim, it just happens to be more expedient), they are in the same moral sphere. (And note that I didn't say that they are the same, in case that's how you read it.)


*Not me I'm afraid* but I will say this... sometimes expediency is justifiable and in OBL's case I believe it was. If they had captured him alive, try to imagine the security implications for the future and to use a simple analogy "you don't keep garbage, you simply dispose of it".





> Not in any legal sense but if the American's accept this state of war and also accept that you can conduct it by off-site assassinations, then that works both ways. Or at least I can't see why it shouldn't, any claims to 'justice' on the part of the Americans having worn out a long time ago.


I love the way liboturds fall back on "not in any legal sense" OBL declared a war against the USA and the West in general, he murdered thousands of people all over the world and you attempt to excuse that because his declaration of war wasn't in any legal sense! That's the problem with the world today there are too many legal restrictions supposed to protect us when they don't but they do make the lawyers a lot richer and the appeasers and liboturds argue longer and harder.




> Indeed, but that's war, whether or not it's fought by 'us' or 'them'. I'm happy to make those judgements about beardy-weirdos but I'm also happy to make them about our brave boys.


*Now is it a a war or isn't it?* Our so called intelligent politicians decide that of course but unfortunately there's too many of them who haven't either the backbone or the sense to let the military deal with military problems. 

Many (if not most) of our politicians are far too busy worrying about upsetting other politicians who are out and out riddled with corruption and couldn't be trusted at any time and yes I'm referring to the nuclear armed pakis as only one clear example of that.

We'll agree to differ in some ways, but I've made my personal opinion perfectly clear and that is... OBL being killed, murdered, assasanated or whatever term you wish to use was justified for the rest of the world and very expediently carried out despite DD harping on about the helicopter crashing (I wonder if the "Internet Tough Guy" could have done any better, I'll chew that over with with his mate Drummond when and if he's next back on here!  :Smile: )

----------


## dirtydog

> and very expediently carried out despite DD harping on about the helicopter crashing (I wonder if the "Internet Tough Guy" could have done any better,


What? Crash the helicopter? Pretty sure I could crash it as I can't fly one  :Smile:

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Who, me? Maybe you mean Americans. You really do have a problem don't you butterfuck, why don't you be a good little frog and go suck some ladyboy cock. I think all that cum gargling has started to rot your brain.


*Fucking Hell* "Koojo" that's a bit strong even for "pupa" I read it and almost spat my coffee into the keyboard here!  :rofl: 

However, I thought "pupa" was a cock loving queer Belgi (you know like the one's who put their hands up before the Germans actually arrived there in WW2?).  :St George: 

p.s. by the way "pupa" hasn't got a brain, well at least if he has it's pea sized and doesn't work.

----------


## Cujo

*             Bin Laden compound could yield big intelligence harvest        * 

*             US gathered 'an awful lot of information' in weekend raid, Panetta says        * 



 
                  Akhtar Soomro              /              Reuters          A policeman stands guard outside the compound where al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden was killed in Abbottabad on Monday.

                      NBC News and msnbc.com  
      updated      5/3/2011 3:58:28 PM ET      
                          "Thousands of documents" recovered from Osama bin Laden's  compound in Pakistan could help the U.S. "destroy al-Qaida," U.S.  officials told NBC News.     
      NBC News reported Monday afternoon that the documents — in both paper  and electronic form on computers and portable computer drives — were  recovered Sunday when a U.S. commando team raided the three-story  compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, and killed bin Laden, 54, the founder  of the Islamist network that killed more than 3,000 people in the Sept.  11, 2001, attacks in the United States. 
 U.S. officials confirmed Tuesday that 10 hard drives, five computers  and more than 100 storage devices were recovered from the compound. The  specific numbers were first reported Tuesday morning by CNN.
 U.S. officials would not discuss details of what might be in the  papers and on the computer drives, including whether the material was  encrypted. But in an interview with NBC News' Brian Williams, CIA  Director Leon Panetta said, "The reality is that we picked up an awful  lot of information there at the compound." 
  White House press secretary Jay Carney told reporters Tuesday that  the information was believed to break down into three categories: 
"Evidence of planned attacks.""Information that could lead to other high-value targets or networks that we don't know about.""The sustaining network for bin Laden himself in Pakistan — what allowed him to live in that compound as long as he did."John Brennan, President Barack Obama's chief counterterrorism  coordinator, said Tuesday that the material could specifically "give us  insights into al-Qaida's network — where other senior commanders and  officials might be."








  "We're moving with great dispatch to make sure that we're able to  mine that for whatever insights it gives us so that we can continue to  destroy al-Qaida," Brennan said in an interview on MSNBC TV's "Morning  Joe."
*Intelligence could be biggest win from raid 
*If that turns out to be true, the materials could turn out  to be "as important (as), if not more important than, the actual killing  of bin Laden," Richard Haass, president of the Council on Foreign  Relations, a Washington-based policy institute, said in an 
 What is learned from the compound will likely extend beyond the documents to include human intelligence. 
        	   Among those discovered in the compound was one of bin Laden's wives, who survived a gunshot wound in her leg, Carney said. 
 U.S. officials strongly denied reports that U.S. commandos may have  taken one of bin Laden's sons with them, but that doesn't mean he or  other family members still couldn't provide valuable material. 
 In his interview with NBC News, Panetta confirmed that relatives of  bin Laden were in Pakistani custody and said the U.S. had been assured  that it would "have access to those individuals." 
 Panetta said that combined with the computer data, "the ability to  continue questioning the family" could yield significant leads  "regarding threats, regarding the location of other high-value targets  and regarding the kind of operations that we need to conduct against  these terrorists." 
 The U.S. has profited in the past from extensive intelligence harvested from the computers of al-Qaida operatives. 
 The most notable previous bonanza that has publicly been revealed was  uncovered in July 2004, when al-Qaida computer expert Mohammed Naeem  Noor Khan was captured in Pakistan. His laptop computer provided a trove  of information and more than 1,000 compact disk drives that were found  in his apartment.
 U.S. officials said the materials included details of al-Qaida  surveillance of Heathrow Airport in London and financial institutions in  New York, Newark, N.J., and Washington, as well as details of possible  planned al-Qaida attacks in New York Harbor.


Compound could yield big intelligence harvest - World news - Death of bin Laden - msnbc.com

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> What? Crash the helicopter? Pretty sure I could crash it as I can't fly one


Nice one DD, good to see your keeping up to datenot to mention having a sense of humour! Where's AD lately is he barred from TD or is he labouring under some top secret assignment for the Pattaya Daily?  :Smile:

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Bin Laden compound could yield big intelligence harvest US gathered 'an awful lot of information' in weekend raid, Panetta says


I hope they've at least got his PayPal login details?

----------


## Humbert

> moral relativism


I think you meant 'moral absolutism' but hey it was a big word, sounded good and never mind that you didn't know what it meant. That is, of course, the funniest trait about you though, the way you reduce your adversaries to caricatures and then attempt to verbally spar with your own absurd invention. Very amusing, I'm sure it causes you to get taken avantage of quite a lot.

----------


## Seekingasylum

Americans do seem to have a problem in thinking through the consequences of their tactics. 
That OBL was shot deliberately through the head while he was unarmed and not posing any threat is now beyond doubt. Whereas any other organisation mindful of their place in the world would have fabricated and publicised a much more politically acceptable scenario the Americans have botched it, horribly. Not only do we have this unpalatable truth emerging but there is now within the public domain incontrovertible evidence that the operation was videotaped. In his haste to be seen as the architect and executor of the plan, Obama will now have to take full responsibility for what has demonstrably been an assassination.

No matter how you cut it, it's not a good thing for a President of a country, whose constitution and laws proscribe such activities, to be caught, literally, with smoking gun evidence.

His staff are clearly at fault for letting the man expose himself to the obvious consequences of this operation but I suppose none of them was keen to carry the can for it. It should have been made clear, at least to the public, that the President wanted OBL to be arrested. Any deviation to this in the execution could have been ascribed to operational exigencies and some Captain or other would have taken the rap. As it is dear old Obama has put himself fair and square into the frame for this and people thought him a good politician......

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Indeed I am....NOT as any moral judgment (your interpretation not mine) as a clear fact of life! Killing OBL who plotted and financed his organisation to kill innocent people all over the world because he believed or thought they didn't fit in or agree with his personal interpretation of the way the world should be was obscene and he certainly didn't deserve the protection from the laws of the countries he strived so hard to destroy.


But, who, or what authority, gets to arbitrarily decide who is the Outlaw and who is not?

If the answer is that if you've broken the Law you can't be protected by it, then thats one solution - but then that gets diluted and you end up with full concentration camps.

----------


## dirtydog

> But, who, or what authority, gets to arbitrarily decide who is the Outlaw and who is not?


Duhhhh, america of course, although in the future it will most likely be China.

----------


## Cujo

^^^ good post and quite right TheGent.

----------


## Carrabow

> His staff are clearly at fault for letting the man expose himself to the obvious consequences of this operation but I suppose none of them was keen to carry the can for it. 
> 
> As it is dear old Obama has put himself fair and square into the frame for this and people thought him a good politician......


Every Great Nation has a task force for just these type of scenario's. Many Great Officers have been the sacrificial lamb for a cause. 

He wanted the Glory...Let him live with it.   FFS, they threw Ollie under the Bus. You didn't see him crying about it. He took it like a Warrior would.

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by The_Ghost_Of_The_Moog
> 
> But, who, or what authority, gets to arbitrarily decide who is the Outlaw and who is not?
> 
> 
> Duhhhh, america of course, although in the future it will most likely be China.


 I would like to see what they would do if someone pissed in their rice bowl.

That could get really ugly...

----------


## Humbert

> His staff are clearly at fault for letting the man expose himself to the obvious consequences of this operation but I suppose none of them was keen to carry the can for it. It should have been made clear, at least to the public, that the President wanted OBL to be arrested. Any deviation to this in the execution could have been ascribed to operational exigencies and some Captain or other would have taken the rap. As it is dear old Obama has put himself fair and square into the frame for this and people thought him a good politician......


Baloney. This was a hit. Nobody wanted him taken alive.

----------


## koman

> That OBL was shot deliberately through the head while he was unarmed and not posing any threat is now beyond doubt.


Who decided that? Did the SEAL team have a sudden bout of remorse and make a joint statement or something?   Inside a big house in the middle of the night inside a foreign country hunting down OBL, every fucking thing is a  threat... Its' been well explained in previous posts that if a bunch of commandos crash into your room in the middle of the night; hit the floor, keep your head down and your hands where they can see them.  If you don't; they are going to shoot. Maybe poor Osama did not know this; what a shame......if he had just been briefed better he could be on his way to sunny Cuba after a fun filled helicopter ride up to Kandahar..... :mid:

----------


## dirtydog

^So it would have been acceptable if the Mussies did that to Salman Rushdie then?

He was their enemy afterall.

----------


## Butterfly

> I think you meant 'moral absolutism' but hey it was a big word,


again Humbert you got it wrong, must be that "American" education

it's called moral relativism, that is justifying immoral acts by implying justification by other moral acts

look it up big boy, never too late to learn something  :Smile:

----------


## Carrabow

> ^So it would have been acceptable if the Mussies did that to Salman Rushdie then?
> 
> He was their enemy afterall.


They got spooled up on a book.  :Confused:

----------


## Cujo

> ^So it would have been acceptable if the Mussies did that to Salman Rushdie then?
> 
> He was their enemy afterall.


They weren't his though, he never declared war on the Muzzies.
They were out to get him because they took offense at something he wrote, not because he murdered thousands of innocent people and declared war on them.
Imagine if the Yanks went around declaring war on everyone who wrote something critical about them, they'd be pretty busy.
You're grasping at straws today DD.

----------


## Humbert

> again Humbert you got it wrong, must be that "American" education it's called moral relativism, that is justifying immoral acts by implying justification by other moral acts look it up big boy, never too late to learn something


Try using it the right sense next time. I will always be here to school you when you err.

----------


## Butterfly

> Try using it the right sense next time. I will always be here to school you when you err.


you are an English teacher ? how I am not surprised,

----------


## Butterfly

> the simplistic binary thinking and moral relativism speak volume about Americans interpretation of the world


here for you Humbert, apparently you can't read either  :Smile:

----------


## Seekingasylum

> Originally Posted by thegent
> 
> His staff are clearly at fault for letting the man expose himself to the obvious consequences of this operation but I suppose none of them was keen to carry the can for it. It should have been made clear, at least to the public, that the President wanted OBL to be arrested. Any deviation to this in the execution could have been ascribed to operational exigencies and some Captain or other would have taken the rap. As it is dear old Obama has put himself fair and square into the frame for this and people thought him a good politician......
> 
> 
> Baloney. This was a hit. Nobody wanted him taken alive.


Err, I rather think you've missed the point of my post.

----------


## dirtydog

^Too many long words at thegent.

----------


## FailSafe

> Imagine if the Yanks went around declaring war on everyone who wrote something critical about them, they'd be pretty busy.


Hell, we'd be hunting down 75% of the posters on this thread, for a start... :Smile:

----------


## Dan

> ^So it would have been acceptable if the Mussies did that to Salman Rushdie then?
> 
> He was their enemy afterall.


Maybe not Rushdie but if a group of elite tribal-elders from Waziristan burst into the White House in the dead of night, then I guess it's fine for them to shoot whoever happens to be there. Somewhere between 1500 and 2000 civilians dead from the drone strikes and utter indifference from both the government and the public. You can bet that from where they stand, it looks like the Americans have declared war on them.

----------


## dirtydog

> You're grasping at straws today DD.


He is just an example, where is the line drawn when people can decide who they will execute without trial? Should Dans suggestion be allowed? Its a reasonably similar amount of dead.

----------


## Seekingasylum

> Originally Posted by thegent
> 
>  That OBL was shot deliberately through the head while he was unarmed and not posing any threat is now beyond doubt.
> 
> 
> Who decided that? Did the SEAL team have a sudden bout of remorse and make a joint statement or something? Inside a big house in the middle of the night inside a foreign country hunting down OBL, every fucking thing is a threat... Its' been well explained in previous posts that if a bunch of commandos crash into your room in the middle of the night; hit the floor, keep your head down and your hands where they can see them. If you don't; they are going to shoot. Maybe poor Osama did not know this; what a shame......if he had just been briefed better he could be on his way to sunny Cuba after a fun filled helicopter ride up to Kandahar.....


I rather think when one enters the bedroom of a 57 year old man,unannounced and in the early hours of the morning the chances of finding him sleeping or in the throes of arousing himself from the arms of Morpheus may just outweigh the possibility that he is practising the stripping down of his AK47 and watching reruns of his favourite video " The night the Towers came down ".

But by all means engage in whatever Hollywood inspired tosh may occupy that brain of yours.

This was an assassination and it was evidently ordered by Obama, personally. 

I express no moral view on this except to say that in my opinion it was extremely foolish of a President to identify himself so closely with such an operation.
Frankly, it's not the done thing for we chaps wearing the white hats.

----------


## Dan

^ But Americans - by and large - loved it. I don't know what it's done to his approval rating but I doubt it's gone down. Even that vile turd Glenn Beck said Obama had done a good job; it's not hurting him.

----------


## mobs00

I couldn't be bothered reading all 27 pages but I'd like to say that I am an American and I am disgusted at how the death of Osama is being celebrated. How barbaric has the US become when they throw celebrations and the president has a memorial at the site of the twin towers to celebrate the death of another human.

Kinda reminds me of when muslim extremists party in the street when infidels are killed  :Confused: 

Seems the USA shares more in common with "terrorism" (fckn stupid word IMO) than they think.

----------


## DrAndy

I thought it strange that they did not want to capture him alive, to extract information from him

keep him captive for years without trial, then kill him

maybe that is exactly what they are doing

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> But, who, or what authority, gets to arbitrarily decide who is the Outlaw and who is not? If the answer is that if you've broken the Law you can't be protected by it, then thats one solution - but then that gets diluted and you end up with full concentration camps.


I think murdering thousands of people could be considered to be breaking the law.

It's interesting how so many try to steer away from the subject in hand and the subject of this thead is a man with money killing thousands of people being shot in the head by trained army specialists. 

It's certainly not a case of applying one exception to the rule of law to everyone (if it was indeed an illegal act?). OBL abused his power, money, position even his religion to wage a war against anyone who didn't agree with his twisted interpretation of the holy book including many Muslims. 

To mention concentration camps as the next step is a ridiculous suggestion and your struggling as many liboturds do when they're being pressed to give clear answers about any subject in hand.

Read some of the posts and you'll see several famous war criminals mentioned who have absolutley nothing to do with what we're discussing here. 

Why? because as usual the people who criticise don't have any alternative answers and just want to knock and sneer at the American administration. OBL declared war on the States, the West and civilisation as we know it (not perfect I know) and he got exactly what he deserved and something he denied to many people, an expedient death!

----------


## Humbert

> Err, I rather think you've missed the point of my post.





> Whereas any other organisation mindful of their place in the world would have fabricated and publicised a much more politically acceptable scenario the Americans have botched it, horribly. Not only do we have this unpalatable truth emerging


No, I disagree that concocting a bullshit story to make it more acceptable would have been a good idea. I see no unpalatable truth emerging. I am quite happy that he was targeted for a hit and so do millions of others. No need to spin it as an arrest gone wrong.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Kinda reminds me of when muslim extremists party in the street when infidels are killed


Yes, i'd similarly felt they had parallels with the behaviour of savages elsewhere.

----------


## FailSafe

> I rather think when one enters the bedroom of a 57 year old man,unannounced and in the early hours of the morning the chances of finding him sleeping or in the throes of arousing himself from the arms of Morpheus may just outweigh the possibility that he is practising the stripping down of his AK47 and watching reruns of his favourite video " The night the Towers came down ".


You'd think the 37 minutes of helicopter landings and gunfire that preceded his bedroom entry would have roused him and given him a bit of a _head's up_ as to what to expect- he must have been one sound sleeper, that bin Laden.

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> You're grasping at straws today DD.
> 
> 
> He is just an example, where is the line drawn when people can decide who they will execute without trial? Should Dans suggestion be allowed? Its a reasonably similar amount of dead.


What about Hitler?
Musolini?
Would it be justifiable to shoot them if you caught them in a firefight?

----------


## Boon Mee

Vindication is sweet... :Smile: 

*CIA Chief Leon Panetta: Yes, Intelligence From Waterboarded Detainees Was Used to Track Down Bin Laden*

Intelligence  garnered from waterboarded detainees was used to track down al-Qaida  leader Osama bin Laden and kill him, CIA Chief Leon Panetta told NBC  News on Tuesday.“Enhanced interrogation techniques” were used to  extract information that led to the mission’s success, Panetta said  during an interview with anchor Brian Williams. Those techniques  included waterboarding, he acknowledged.
Panetta, who in a 2009  CIA confirmation hearing declared “waterboarding is torture and it’s  wrong,” said Tuesday that debate about its use will continue.
“Whether  we would have gotten the same information through other approaches I  think is always gonna be an open question,” Panetta said.
“In the  intelligence business you work from a lot of sources of information and  that was true here,” Panetta said. “We had a multiple source — a  multiple series of sources — that provided information with regards to  the situation. Clearly some of it came from detainees and the  interrogation of detainees but we also had information from other  sources as well.”
Panetta’s comments hours after Attorney General  Eric Holder defended as lawful Tuesday the intelligence gathering and  raid that resulted in the death of al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden.


CIA chief: Waterboarding aided bin Laden raid - TODAY News - TODAY.com

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Originally Posted by dirtydog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Koojo
> ...


What if its someone sexually abusing either yourself or your kids. Is it ok to kill them?

The lines of Vigilante-ism are blurry.

----------


## robuzo

Here's Declan Walsh in the Guarniad, not exactly a cheerleader for US foreign policy:
Osama bin Laden's last hours come into focus as White House revises its story | World news | The Guardian
The two brothers were killed in the opening moments of the assault, according to the CIA, along with Bin Laden and one of his sons, thought to be Khalid.

_Many details, however, remain blurred_. US officials amended their initial version to reveal that a woman who was killed during the raid on the compound was not Bin Laden's wife.

It is also _not clear_ how Bin Laden, who was cornered in a third-floor room now marked by a shattered windowpane, resisted as the US soldiers barged into his room.
---
It's amazing that an on-the-spot reporter doesn't profess to know exactly what happened, but some TD posters apparently do (OK, maybe not so amazing). What we do know is that the story of the raid as reported by the US has gone through a few permutations, and given that investigations into what actually happened during the raid it might be a good idea to resist making definitive statements about it.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> It's amazing that an on-the-spot reporter doesn't profess to know exactly what happened, .


Not amazing - given he wasn't on the spot.

Unless he was hiding under the bed.

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
> It's amazing that an on-the-spot reporter doesn't profess to know exactly what happened, .
> 
> 
> Not amazing - given he wasn't on the spot.
> 
> Unless he was hiding under the bed.


He's in Abbottabad. Which is pretty clearly what on-the-spot means in this context, prick.

----------


## Boon Mee

The credit in large measure for capping OBL belongs to Dubya for those 'horrible' intensive interrogation techniques.  Just a few gallons of dirty klong water down the nose of KSM did the trick! :Smile:

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

There's no reason why reporters in Abbotabad have any advantage with this story as it pertains to the assassination of OBL 

They're just picking up sub-tweet-worthy stuff about how the inhabitants didn't hand back cricket balls that landed in their garden.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Can I just say I don't actually care if he's dead, how he died, who died with him, etc.

It doesn't make the world a safer place, it probably won't get Obama re-elected because Wall St. want their own in, and it damned sure is not a "victory" in the "war on terrorism", despite what the bouncing, singing frat boys think.

A victory in that would be strip searching every traveller of muslim appearance, a bit more racial profiling, and allowing us caucasians to sail through with the bags of duty free we bought three stops before.

Perhaps if we made the lives of "moderate" muslims a little more miserable, they might be more tempted to root out the cunts in their midst.

Talking of which, did you see that the European Union wanted to lift the liquid ban across Europe after many countries said it was pretty pointless, but they've delayed the decision because of the few dickhead ones that oppose it?

----------


## robuzo

> There's no reason why reporters in Abbotabad have any advantage with this story as it pertains to the assassination of OBL 
> 
> They're just picking up sub-tweet-worthy stuff about how the inhabitants didn't hand back cricket balls that landed in their garden.


Oh, right, not to mention little details about Pakistani soldiers spiriting neighborhood men out of their homes in the middle of the night, obviously as part of the unilateral US operation:
---
Zain Muhammad, an elderly man perched on a rope bed on the porch, said Pakistani soldiers had come in the night and taken away his son, Shamraiz. He produced a photo of a smiling man with a moustache in his early 40s. "I've no idea where he is. The soldiers won't allow us to leave, not even to fetch water."
---
^By the way, Harry- "it probably won't get Obama re-elected because Wall St. want their own in"- you mean, the Republicans will find an even more Wall Street-friendly candidate? That's hard to imagine.

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by dirtydog
> ...


Answer the question before you start building straw horses.
We're talking about combatents here, suddenly you're talking about pedos, don't be a moron.
War.
You catch Musolini or Hitler in a firefight, is it ok to shoot them?

----------


## benbaaa

> I couldn't be bothered reading all 27 pages but I'd like to say that I am an American and I am disgusted at how the death of Osama is being celebrated. How barbaric has the US become when they throw celebrations and the president has a memorial at the site of the twin towers to celebrate the death of another human.  Kinda reminds me of when muslim extremists party in the street when infidels are killed


A clergyman said something similar on Fox this morning, but was shouted down by O'Reilly.  Mr O seems to be of the view that if Jesus were alive today he'd be dancing in Times Square wrapped in an American flag, chanting USA USA etc. Presumably he'd be chanting in Aramaic, though.

I don't know. I didn't lose a moment's sleep after I heard OBL had been shot (or *brought to justice*, according to Fox), but it's a little unseemly to dance around singing. A wry smile and a moment's reflection was all I permitted myself.

----------


## Humbert

> A clergyman said something similar on Fox this morning, but was shouted down by O'Reilly. Mr O seems to be of the view that if Jesus were alive today he'd be dancing in Times Square wrapped in an American flag, chanting USA USA etc. Presumably he'd be chanting in Aramaic, though.


Now don't go ruining the party by bring that twat O'Reily into it. :Smile:

----------


## yaangcome

Could you just amagin how may westerners world wide would be take as hostages in order to asure the release of Bin Laden if he had been taken alive ????.

----------


## Butterfly

> I couldn't be bothered reading all 27 pages but I'd like to say that I am an American and I am disgusted at how the death of Osama is being celebrated. How barbaric has the US become when they throw celebrations and the president has a memorial at the site of the twin towers to celebrate the death of another human.
> 
> Kinda reminds me of when muslim extremists party in the street when infidels are killed


you are obviously not American and a commie bastard traitor,

why do you hate America ?

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Originally Posted by The_Ghost_Of_The_Moog
> 
> 
> There's no reason why reporters in Abbotabad have any advantage with this story as it pertains to the assassination of OBL 
> 
> They're just picking up sub-tweet-worthy stuff about how the inhabitants didn't hand back cricket balls that landed in their garden.
> 
> 
> Oh, right, not to mention little details about Pakistani soldiers spiriting neighborhood men out of their homes in the middle of the night, obviously as part of the unilateral US operation:
> ...


I agree that this is quite good stuff, but it doesn't get me into Osama's bedroom at the time of his murder; which is the place I need to be in order to solve the mystery.

So this is why I demand to see the full helmet cam footage, and the slab shots, and I insist on seeing the body (which isn't in the sea, as we all know full well).

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by mobs00
> 
> I couldn't be bothered reading all 27 pages but I'd like to say that I am an American and I am disgusted at how the death of Osama is being celebrated. How barbaric has the US become when they throw celebrations and the president has a memorial at the site of the twin towers to celebrate the death of another human.  Kinda reminds me of when muslim extremists party in the street when infidels are killed
> 
> 
> A clergyman said something similar on Fox this morning, but was shouted down by O'Reilly.  Mr O seems to be of the view that if Jesus were alive today he'd be dancing in Times Square wrapped in an American flag, chanting USA USA etc. Presumably he'd be chanting in Aramaic, though.
> 
> I don't know. I didn't lose a moment's sleep after I heard OBL had been shot (or *brought to justice*, according to Fox), but it's a little unseemly to dance around singing. A wry smile and a moment's reflection was all I permitted myself.


Filmed and posted by the guy who tried it:
YouTube - "USA" Chant on NYC Subway FAIL

----------


## robuzo

This is very funny:
Scocca : Pakistan's Ambassador Might Want to Reconsider Comparing Osama bin Laden to Whitey Bulger
Pakistan's Ambassador Might Want to Reconsider Comparing Osama bin Laden to Whitey Bulger
Posted Tuesday, May 03, 2011 2:49 PM | By Tom Scocca
In a phone conversation with the Atlantic's Jeffrey Goldberg yesterday, Pakistani ambassador Husain Haqqani challenged the notion that his country should have been able to notice Osama bin Laden's hiding place: 
"If Whitey Bulger can live undetected by American police for so long, why can't Osama bin Laden live undetected by Pakistani authorities?" Haqqani asked.
It's cute of Haqqani to be reading the Most Wanted List for other examples of hard-to-apprehend fugitives. But Whitey Bulger probably isn't the one he wants to discuss. 

For the record, James "Whitey" Bulger was able to rule Boston's criminal underworld in large part because he was an informant protected by the FBI—even as he allegedly murdered people. It also didn't hurt that his brother, William Bulger, was the president of the Massachusetts State Senate. When the Justice Department finally moved to arrest Whitey Bulger anyway, he was tipped off by his corrupt contacts in the FBI and the Boston police. 

So: enmeshed with the government and protected by the agency that was supposed to be capturing him. If Haqqani really believes bin Laden was the Whitey Bulger of Pakistan, then the ISI has a lot to answer for.

----------


## Cujo

> This is very funny:
> Scocca : Pakistan's Ambassador Might Want to Reconsider Comparing Osama bin Laden to Whitey Bulger
> Pakistan's Ambassador Might Want to Reconsider Comparing Osama bin Laden to Whitey Bulger
> Posted Tuesday, May 03, 2011 2:49 PM | By Tom Scocca
> In a phone conversation with the Atlantic's Jeffrey Goldberg yesterday, Pakistani ambassador Husain Haqqani challenged the notion that his country should have been able to notice Osama bin Laden's hiding place: 
> "If Whitey Bulger can live undetected by American police for so long, why can't Osama bin Laden live undetected by Pakistani authorities?" Haqqani asked.
> It's cute of Haqqani to be reading the Most Wanted List for other examples of hard-to-apprehend fugitives. But Whitey Bulger probably isn't the one he wants to discuss. 
> 
> For the record, James "Whitey" Bulger was able to rule Boston's criminal underworld in large part because he was an informant protected by the FBIeven as he allegedly murdered people. It also didn't hurt that his brother, William Bulger, was the president of the Massachusetts State Senate. When the Justice Department finally moved to arrest Whitey Bulger anyway, he was tipped off by his corrupt contacts in the FBI and the Boston police. 
> ...


 :smiley laughing:  :smiley laughing:  :smiley laughing:

----------


## Dan

> You catch Musolini or Hitler in a firefight, is it ok to shoot them?


It's far from clear that Osama was caught in a firefight, or if it was a firefight it sounds like a distinctly one-sided firefight. But if you want to make a reductio ad absurdum, how about this: you catch a guy stealing your parking space in a firefight. Is it OK to shoot him? My intention in mentioning the Nuremburg trials (and again with Eichmann, tried in Israel FFS) was actually to make the opposite point: If, after the unbelievable horrors these people committed, they managed to get a trial, why is it so difficult to imagine it in the case of Osama? In comparison, his crimes don't even trigger the seismograph.

----------


## buriramboy

Sky News now saying that Bin Ladens daughter has said that the Americans captured her father alive then shot him.

----------


## buriramboy

They (the seppos) have the whole incident on video so just release it but they won't will they as the same people who watched it live have already changed their own stories so many times. And people wonder why conspiracy stories start.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Could you just amagin how may westerners world wide would be take as hostages in order to asure the release of Bin Laden if he had been taken alive ????.


Actually that's not a bad point, although those dumb enough to be taken hostage would be working in shithole countries for large amounts of dollars and therefore would be considered there at their own risk, and that includes being taken hostage by muslim militants.

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## good2bhappy

will any be taken in retribution?

----------


## good2bhappy

beginning to sound like they captured him
identified him
and executed him

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## genghis61

two letters from today's Bangkok Post

excerpts:

Along with all the people of the civilised world, I applaud the courage of the US special forces team which on Monday rid us of one of the most evil men to have ever walked the earth.

. . . .  mastermind behind the deaths of countless thousands . . . not just Christian Americans . . . 
_Ken Albertsen_
where is the civilised world these days? am I part of it? 
Christian Americans?


As an American and a world citizen, I commend the operation by US Navy Seals . . . He didn't surrender so they killed him . . . 
_David Brown_
More questionable, can an American also be a world citizen? I presume he'd only want to be a 'civilised world citizen' in reality.

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## Butterfly

the world is really upside down,

Americans have completely lost the plot,

all this for a small incident on 911, didn't take them long to jump the shark

----------


## robuzo

An opinion worthy of consideration:
Bin Laden's killing a 'perversion of justice' - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
[High-profile Australian QC and human rights lawyer Geoffrey Robertson] has told ABC News Breakfast bin Laden should have been brought to trial and his death has made him look like a martyr.

"The way to demystify this man is not to kill him and have the iconic picture of his body," he said.

"The way to demystify him, rather than to these soulful pictures of the tall man on the mountain, is to put him on trial, to see him as a hateful and hate-filled old man screaming from the dock or lying in the witness box.

"That way the true inhumanity of the man is exposed."

Mr Robertson says US president Barack Obama has been sloppy with his use of the word "justice" and questions need to be answered about whether there was an explicit order to kill bin Laden.

"It's not justice. It's a perversion of the term. Justice means taking someone to court, finding them guilty upon evidence and sentencing them," he said.

"This man has been subject to summary execution, and what is now appearing after a good deal of disinformation from the White House is it may well have been a cold-blooded assassination."

Mr Robertson says it is an irony that the US has given bin Laden what he craved.

"The last thing he wanted was to be put on trial, to be convicted and to end his life in a prison farm in upstate New York," he said.

"What he wanted was exactly what he got - to be shot in mid-jihad and get a fast track to paradise and the Americans have given him that."
---
Prison farm? Supermax, maybe, Guantanamo probably. I doubt he would have got better treatment than Private Manning.

I can't figure out why they would want to kill him even if they hadn't planned to put him on trial, which I don't see as a bad idea- when did we become such cowards? Oh, yeah, 9/11 changed everything, which is another way of saying OBL won.

----------


## Butterfly

> which is another way of saying OBL won.


of course he won, and he probably waited for that day to become the next Jesus

----------


## good2bhappy

^ that is going too far
I think he saw himself more as a Mahdi

----------


## larvidchr

> Originally Posted by thegent
> 
> I rather think when one enters the bedroom of a 57 year old man,unannounced and in the early hours of the morning the chances of finding him sleeping or in the throes of arousing himself from the arms of Morpheus may just outweigh the possibility that he is practising the stripping down of his AK47 and watching reruns of his favourite video " The night the Towers came down ".
> 
> 
> You'd think the 37 minutes of helicopter landings and gunfire that preceded his bedroom entry would have roused him and given him a bit of a _head's up_ as to what to expect- he must have been one sound sleeper, that bin Laden.


According to what is reported now the actual firefight lasted less than two min. the rest of the time was securing the compound/prisoners, gathering evidence and preparing to leave.

Osama was not needed alive, just dead. He was a legitimate military target and as such no warnings or special chances was warranted, even captured he would have continued to present a danger, he would have continued to be if not the active then the spiritual leader of further attacks and murders, he had deliberately and knowingly put himself in that position.

Cruise missiles or hellfires do not launch small parachutes with warnings to surrender before they hit, in this case IMO it was the right decision to go in with a Seal team "making sure :Wink: " and avoiding the many more civilian casualties from a missile strike.

None of the civilian innocent victims in the Twin Towers, London buses or the Madrid trains got a warning or a chance to surrender, terrorist actions Osama B. L. himself and his organisation openly and proudly have taken direct responsibility for, any prolonged court-case would in this case just have been a waste of time and an added danger, and given the creep publicity he did not warrant nor deserve.

Sure we have rule of law, but common sense does apply sometimes also in law, you don't need to pick it up and taste it to know you have taken a dump, it's enough to look at the evidence in the bowl (if in doubt) and then flush immediately.

He was allegedly shot in the chest and face, not in the back, no proper courtroom in the free world will ever deem this shooting illegal, even if some nutter terrorist sympathizer bleeding heart org's. will file such a case.

I guess he didn't practice the chorus on this one even if he was squealing like a stuck pig behind his wife.

http://youtu.be/knyH0JDwlYg

----------


## Pol the Pot

If OBL declared war on the USD and the US justifiably declared war on him and his organization, why are his captured men not treated as prisoners of war? Obviously not OBL himself, as he was shot unarmed resisting arrest.

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## FailSafe

> all this for a small incident on 911, didn't take them long to jump the shark


Yeah- it was hardly worth getting upset about...

You should try not to use quintessentially American expressions when you make such stupid statements, BF.

----------


## mobs00

^^^ Are you an American reporter working for Fox news?

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## good2bhappy

A TD member 



> He was allegedly shot in the chest and face, not in the back, no proper courtroom in the free world will ever deem this shooting illegal,


and then a renown International lawyer



> "It's not justice. It's a perversion of the term. Justice means taking someone to court, finding them guilty upon evidence and sentencing them," he said. "This man has been subject to summary execution, and what is now appearing after a good deal of disinformation from the White House is it may well have been a cold-blooded assassination."

----------


## FailSafe

> he was shot unarmed resisting arrest


Yeah, they probably shot him while he resisted having the cuffs put on his wrists.

Not complying during an active firefight is tantamount to committing suicide.

----------


## Dan

> you don't need to pick it up and taste it to know you have taken a  dump, it's enough to look at the evidence


Yes, you're right on this. You are a horrible little turd aren't you. I can smell the fucking stench of your posts through my monitor. But why no Pat Condell video? Surely he must have made something on this for small-minded fuckwits like you and I'm simply desperate to see it.

^ You seem remarkably well informed about all this. Are you are a trained special forces operative or does it come via playstation?

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

If he faced death bravely then we certainly won't be allowed to see the video. 

Like Hitler, he has to be dehumanised so that the vilification propaganda process is complete.

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## larvidchr

> A TD member 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by larvidchr
> 
> He was allegedly shot in the chest and face, not in the back, no proper courtroom in the free world will ever deem this shooting illegal,
> ...


You haven't searched very hard for other legal expert views have you? everything the state does is always a travesty of justice according to professional defense lawyers, the prostitutes of the legal profession.

Maybe you should read up on the SAS raid on the terrorists in the Iranian embassy in London, or the shootings of the IRA terrorists in Gibraltar, there happens to be legal precedence for hot military action cases like this.

----------


## FailSafe

> You seem remarkably well informed about all this. Are you are a trained special forces operative or does it come via playstation?


Xbox 360. :Smile:

----------


## Pol the Pot

> Originally Posted by Pol the Pot
> 
> he was shot unarmed resisting arrest
> 
> 
> Yeah, they probably shot him while he resisted having the cuffs put on his wrists.
> 
> Not complying during an active firefight is tantamount to committing suicide.


Well, we don't know that until we get more info.

Up to now there's been a fair amount of zig- zagging, that's strange if it was such a straightforward affair of going in and getting America's most wanted.

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by good2bhappy
> 
> 
> A TD member 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For the defense of the action by the SEALS:
Were Navy SEALs justified in shooting an unarmed Osama bin Laden? - CSMonitor.com
The fact that bin Laden was unarmed when he was shot and killed does not undermine the legality of the US military operation, according to legal experts.

Under the law of war, the commander of Al Qaeda was a legitimate military target. Members of the US assault team couldnt know what bin Laden might attempt when cornered in his home.

By way of contrast, the standard used by law enforcement officers in the United States differs from the law of war. It is unclear, from the details now released by the White House, whether bin Ladens actions would have posed a significant enough threat to justify the use of lethal force by arresting police officers.

But the raid on the bin Laden compound was not a law enforcement operation. It was a projection of US military force to kill or capture the worlds most wanted terrorist.

----------


## Seekingasylum

As I said before, on the basis of what has so far been disclosed this was demonstrably an assassination and in view of his address to the nation the President has evidently taken full personal responsibility for it with a relish that may well haunt him.

This is quite a step for a democratically elected head of state that regards itself as the true bastion of freedom and the rule of law. Quite why he has done this remains to be seen but as several pundits have opined he may well have thought there was nothing but plaudits to be gained by doing so hoping this would be reflected in the forthcoming elections. 

This may well be true of the lower end of American society, many of whom appear to be well represented on this board, but I feel once the euphoria has evaporated and the full import of what has transpired begins to seep into the country's consciousness others may well take a more reflective view of their head of state ordering what is tantamount to murder.

Personally, I think what they have done is a terrible mistake and one that reveals a lack of confidence some Americans seem to have in their institutions. To have captured Bin Laden and brought him to book by the process of the law in the USA would have shown a statesmanship and pride in the justice system that has hitherto been somewhat lacking. Now, all it seems they have done is to gleefully surrender to mere revenge cloaked in an orgy of self congratulatory militarism.

" Don't run, you'll only die tired " indeed.

----------


## FailSafe

> Well, we don't know that until we get more info.


You are absolutely right- we don't- that isn't stopping anyone here (including myself, and including Dan, who is being a bit hypocritical by calling me out, but whatever...) from expressing their opinion for the fun of it.

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## mobs00

I'm just glad now that Osama is dead they can get rid of the X-ray machines at the airports and scale back the TSA.

----------


## Dan

So is it lawful for the American military to kill anyone labelled a military target (presumably of sufficient importance) anywhere in the world? How does this work, I wonder. And why, as somebody else said, if this is governed by military laws, are the Americans not required to treat their captives as prisoners of war? It seems - to me, with no legal training - like a very one-sided interpretation. But that aside, it's important to remember that justice and the law are not always on speaking terms.

----------


## Dan

> including myself, and including Dan, who is being a bit hypocritical by calling me out, but whatever...


I beg your pardon? I'm expressing a view on the morality of what happened, based on the account given by American government, not speculating on what caliber bullets were used.



> Personally, I think what they have done is a terrible mistake and one  that reveals a lack of confidence some Americans seem to have in their  institutions. To have captured Bin Laden and brought him to book by the  process of the law in the USA would have shown a statesmanship and pride  in the justice system that has hitherto been somewhat lacking.


Exactly.

----------


## Carrabow

> This may well be true of the lower end of American society, many of whom appear to be well represented on this board, .


 Can you please elaborate on this comment? I just want to make sure I am not misunderstanding your intentions.

This would be greatly appreciated.

----------


## larvidchr

> you don't need to pick it up and taste it to know you have taken a  dump, it's enough to look at the evidence
> 			
> 		
> 
> Yes, you're right on this. You are a horrible little turd aren't you. I can smell the fucking stench of your posts through my monitor. But why no Pat Condell video? Surely he must have made something on this for small-minded fuckwits like you and I'm simply desperate to see it.
> 
> ^ You seem remarkably well informed about all this. Are you are a trained special forces operative or does it come via playstation?


Loosing your temper here Danny boy  :rofl:  the effin and blinding and lame repetitions firmly places You in the trailer park toilet bowl, not that it comes as a surprise though.

Your distasteful sympathies for the murdering lunatic shines through your bitter responses  ::chitown::

----------


## sabang

Do you reckon Obama the gunslinger will get the NRA nomination for 2012 ?  :mid:

----------


## Mid

> I'm just glad now that Osama is dead they can get rid of the X-ray machines at the airports and scale back the TSA.


that's probably the funniest comment in the entire thread .................

that'd be me crying ..............................

----------


## Carrabow

> Do you reckon Obama the gunslinger will get the NRA nomination for 2012 ?


 
No, but hell No. You should see what they use for paper targets at the range.

----------


## FailSafe

> I beg your pardon? I'm expressing a view on the morality of what happened, based on the account given by American government, not speculating on what caliber bullets were used.


You beg my pardon?  No need to stand on such formality here, Dan.

The type of weapon used is of peripheral interest (perhaps not to you, but of interest just the same).

You've been attempting to portray bin Laden as some helpless old man (a 'lanky, unarmed geriatric [at 57] with renal failure) and have him perceived as a victim, and claiming this was a 'targeted assassination ' (post #573)- I didn't see that reported by the American government, so that's an assumption on your part (or maybe it's not- you seem remarkably well-informed- where do you get your information?)

----------


## Dan

> Your distasteful sympathies for the murdering lunatic shines through your bitter response.


Either you haven't bothered to read my posts or you haven't understood them. Stupid or lazy? Or both, perhaps?

----------


## FailSafe

> Originally Posted by thegent
> 
> 
>  
> This may well be true of the lower end of American society, many of whom appear to be well represented on this board, .
> 
> 
>  Can you please elaborate on this comment? I just want to make sure I am not misunderstanding your intentions.
> 
> This would be greatly appreciated.


He must be referring to you- he can't mean me- I'm hi-so. :Smile:

----------


## robuzo

> So is it lawful for the American military to kill anyone labelled a military target (presumably of sufficient importance) anywhere in the world? How does this work, I wonder. And why, as somebody else said, if this is governed by military laws, are the Americans not required to treat their captives as prisoners of war? It seems - to me, with no legal training - like a very one-sided interpretation. But that aside, it's important to remember that justice and the law are not always on speaking terms.


I don't know. I'd like to read more elaborate commentary by the law professors quoted in the article. It seems a little dodgy to me, but I'm not a lawyer, I just work with the bastards.

Rachel Maddow pointed out on her show last night that commenting on an evolving story in order to make a point about one's ideological arguments is not a good idea. I tend to agree.

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by Carrabow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by thegent
> ...


There will be no comment until I hear it from the source. What would classify you as High Society? Do you belong to a boys club?

----------


## FailSafe

> There will be no comment until I hear it from the source. What would classify you as High Society? Do you belong to a boys club?


I used to be a cub scout, but they threw me out for eating a brownie in my tent. :mid: 

Hey, I wore a uniform.

----------


## TafkaB

> I'm just glad now that Osama is dead they can get rid of the X-ray machines at the airports and scale back the TSA.


You must be joking, the fear of retribution for this action will be enough to keep the sheep penned in for a while more yet.

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by Carrabow
> 
> There will be no comment until I hear it from the source. What would classify you as High Society? Do you belong to a boys club?
> 
> 
> I used to be a cub scout, but they threw me out for eating a brownie in my tent.
> 
> Hey, I wore a uniform.


 
Desti Vincere Del Mori

----------


## Mid

here 'tis mobs00 , ya dropped it

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by mobs00
> 
> 
> I'm just glad now that Osama is dead they can get rid of the X-ray machines at the airports and scale back the TSA.
> 
> 
> You must be joking, the fear of retribution for this action will be enough to keep the sheep penned in for a while more yet.


Pretty sure he's joking. And yes, it'll always be something. The Dept. of Heimat Security got $42 billion from taxpayers last year. It's just another part of the economy now, like the "defense" industry.

----------


## Seekingasylum

Oh dear, I don't mean to step on anyone's toes here but in truth several comments by members of the former subject race suggested an intellectual acuity possibly unhampered by intelligence or a decent education. This of course is not unusual among the lower end of any society so please don't think I'm just getting at Americans.  :Smile: 

I'm still getting my mind around the last argument that waterboarding didn't constitute torture but perhaps the next debate by the American military on what constitutes reasonable force during an arrest may provide some useful insights.

"Uuurggh, well, in a conflict resolution scenario predicated on what we know to be something we don't know, then we have to find out but we can't find out until we know what we don't know. If we still don't know then we can shoot 'em."

Obergruppenfuhrer Rumsfeld - Battle of the Bulge 1944

----------


## Dan

> have him perceived as a victim


I don't think that's fair. I think I've been pretty clear where I stand on his crimes.


> claiming this was a 'targeted assassination ' (post #573)- I didn't see that reported by the American government, so that's an assumption on your part


That is fair enough, but I'd rather think of it as a reasonable conclusion (certainly not an assumption, which is quite the opposite).


> Rachel Maddow pointed out on her show last night that commenting on an  evolving story in order to make a point about one's ideological  arguments is not a good idea. I tend to agree.


But that's no fun and I'm stuck in front of my computer with really, really tedious work to do.

----------


## Butterfly

anyway, we all agree that Osama has won at the end and the Americans have lost another battle, as always

he will get his 72 virgins for sure,

----------


## FailSafe

> Oh dear, I don't mean to step on anyone's toes here but in truth several comments by members of the former subject race suggested an intellectual acuity possibly unhampered by intelligence or a decent education. This of course is not unusual among the lower end of any society so please don't think I'm just getting at Americans.


See- he wasn't referring to me- I'm edumacated.

----------


## mobs00

> Originally Posted by TafkaB
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by mobs00
> ...


DHS budget in 2001 = $0.00

DHS budget in 2010 = $56,400,000,000

United States Department of Homeland Security - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You would think that there could be some savings there now.

----------


## FailSafe

> That is fair enough, but I'd rather think of it as a reasonable conclusion (certainly not an assumption, which is quite the opposite).


OK- that's a very gracious reply- we will have to agree to disagree, but I respect your opinion.

----------


## Dan

^^ Interesting reading the wiki page. I didn't know enforcing copyright laws came under 'homeland security'. What a very strange country America has become.

----------


## Carrabow

> Oh dear, I don't mean to step on anyone's toes here but in truth several comments by members of the former subject race suggested an intellectual acuity possibly unhampered by intelligence or a decent education. This of course is not unusual among the lower end of any society so please don't think I'm just getting at Americans. 
> 
> I'm still getting my mind around the last argument that waterboarding didn't constitute torture but perhaps the next debate by the American military on what constitutes reasonable force during an arrest may provide some useful insights.
> 
> "Uuurggh, well, in a conflict resolution scenario predicated on what we know to be something we don't know, then we have to find out but we can't find out until we know what we don't know. If we still don't know then we can shoot 'em."
> 
> Obergruppenfuhrer Rumsfeld - Battle of the Bulge 1944


No need to get shaken when you stirred. I took offense to it at first but logically it makes sense. I myself make offhanded comments that would construe me to fit in this category. Rest assured I am capable of a thorough retort.

You have a right to your opinion, Mericans as I have heard coined naturally are thick skinned and can take criticism (well some of us). But from the other side of the big blue Klong between us we see some of you guys as self righteous, self centered, pompous bastards. Hey...nobody's perfect  :Smile:

----------


## robuzo

> ^^ Interesting reading the wiki page. I didn't know defending copyright laws came under 'homeland security'. What a very strange country America has become.


They could just rename it the Department of If You Aren't Guilty You Have Nothing To Worry About.

----------


## FailSafe

^^

Don't forget the bad teeth...

----------


## dirtydog

^We like to think of it as "interesting teeth."

----------


## mobs00

> Originally Posted by Dan
> 
> 
> ^^ Interesting reading the wiki page. I didn't know defending copyright laws came under 'homeland security'. What a very strange country America has become.
> 
> 
> They could just rename it the Department of If You Aren't Guilty You Have Nothing To Worry About.


I think it should be called the "Department of Peace" seeing as how they keep everyone safe.

----------


## Carrabow

> anyway, we all agree that Osama has won at the end and the Americans have lost another battle, as always
> 
> he will get his 72 virgins for sure,


Why do think he wanted his women to wear burka's?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> 
> anyway, we all agree that Osama has won at the end and the Americans have lost another battle, as always
> 
> he will get his 72 virgins for sure,
> 
> 
> Why do think he wanted his women to wear burka's?


I know that bloke. His name is Derek.

----------


## Spin

> I didn't know enforcing copyright laws came under 'homeland security'. What a very strange country America has become.


Off topic I know but here is a good example, a Spanish website for streaming sport like Premier League footy from the uk.

Click here > This domain name has been seized by ICE - Homeland Security Investigations

----------


## Dan

^ I guess they need something to do between house-cleaning the concentration camps and polishing the black helicopters. I mean, you can only count and refold all those body-bags so many times.

----------


## Carrabow

I know that bloke. His name is Derek.[/quote]

Dont take it personal, I wanted to get BF spun up  :Smile:

----------


## Butterfly

> "Department of Peace"


I would prefer the "Department of Freedom"

----------


## OhOh

> ^^
> That was before the war on terror. All rules are out the window like ieds, using civilians as shields, flying planes into highrise buildings; do I need to go on? Conventional warfare and rules have not been relevant for a long time. Why should a country always do the "right" thing when everyone else is not?


The reason "some countries" should adhere to "rules" is because they purport to support the institutions which create the rules.

If "some countries" are not happy with the "rules" they should lower their flags and exit the world institutions which they "allegedly" follow.

That way they cannot be accused of hypocrisy as "some countries" are now being .

Simple "put up or shut up".

That way all countries which do not follow the "rules" are obvious to the world and will be treated by other countries as the lying, hypocritical bastards they are.

I am of course using the word country as to mean the "elected" leaders. If the countries electorate continue to elect these types of "leaders" they of course will unfortunately be tarred with the same brush.

----------


## S Landreth

> Why should a country always do the "right" thing when everyone else is not?


 
Because we are better than that and should rise above it.

----------


## OhOh

> probably don't have much time to mull things over in the heat of the moment.


The US have been planning the raid since last August - 9 months. According to some reports they have practised the attack many times. Videos were taken during the "practice attacks" primarily for training but of course also handy for the subsequent press release and Hollywood movie.




> the potential targets would have been anyone not on their team.
> 
> Including all women and children. They seem to have managed to capturel them alive. How difficult is it to subdue a geratric, bedbound man with a woman laying on top of him?
> 
> There were kids in the house- I didn't hear about any of them getting hurt- one of his wives was wounded but not killed- obviously there was some sort of target recognition.


See previous



> Are you calling OBL an innocent civilian?


When was he convicted, in a court of law, by 12 good citizens and sentanced?




> Who do you trust, Italians or Americans?


The Mafia or the Mafia, you choose.

----------


## OhOh

> Do you think that if Obama had been bought to trial there is ANY chance he would have got off with a good lawyer?


The point is to all of you who relish a free society that the "process" of civilisation demands the respect of ALL humans irrespective of the "crimes" allegedly committed.




> the person who planned this event deserved a tria


Even you deserve a fair trial.




> He was not a person that deserved any rights or even humane in our way of thinking


The US "Humane" way is the "wild west way" obviously.




> The Rule of Law is what makes us civilised


Correct




> but the ones of many others that set me off


Take a chill pill.




> President Bush in September of last year signed an intelligence "finding" instructing the CIA to engage in "lethal covert operations"


The US fortunately is not the sole arbiter of the world.

----------


## dirtydog

Obama may have been voted in as the merican president, but he wasn't voted in as god.

----------


## OhOh

> They are not complaining


They, the Pakistani government, accept the money each year, why would they complain. Some Pakistani people hold a different view.




> Laws are for law abiding people.


That puts the US administration outside the law.




> To judge any nation as a whole by it's politicians / administration and to add that OBL occupied the moral high ground just shows how silly you really are.


The "nation", in the US anyway, voted for this adminsitration. They dont seem to have got what they voted for.





> OBL declared war on the USA


Allegedly

----------


## OhOh

> Spend money on senseless trial


Thats what is done in "civilised" countries. But hey this is the "wild west".

----------


## koman

> Quote: Originally Posted by The Bold Rodney 
> 
> OBL declared war on the USA


[QUOTE="OhOh"]    Allegedly 

I though that bit where his guys flew the planes into the WTC was kind of "war like"   or would you just call it an act of vandalism?

----------


## OhOh

> Its' been well explained in previous posts that if a bunch of commandos crash into your room in the middle of the night; hit the floor, keep your head down and your hands where they can see them


Only in the US do they understand such a thing, happens every day in US cities. Other more civilised countries do not understand the concept.

----------


## OhOh

> What about Hitler?
> Musolini?
> Would it be justifiable to shoot them if you caught them in a firefight?


The Nazis actually "apprehended", by the military forces at the time, were put on trial. Whether it was fair or not the "processes" the allied countries were fighting for were followed.



> It's amazing that an on-the-spot reporter


On the spot  :rofl:

----------


## OhOh

> no proper courtroom in the free world will ever deem this shooting illegal


The "courtroom" of public opinion is being tested here at least.




> his may well be true of the lower end of American society, many of whom appear to be well represented on this board,


Dont be too hard on the TD posters, some do have relevant points if only to reinforce other posters opinions of them.

----------


## OhOh

> his guys flew the planes into the WTC


This of course is fact, or maybe propaganda maybe?

----------


## rickschoppers

> Originally Posted by rickschoppers
> 
> 
> ^^
> To bury the body at sea is a great choice. Why would you risk his escape or worse yet, take him to trial in today's world? .
> 
> 
>  
> Uhmmm,...........he was dead already in case you hadn't noticed yet.


Dahhh....your green print referred to if they took him alive.

----------


## sabang

I'm sure several of you will thoroughly enjoy this cringeworthy piece of adulatory backslapping-



_This was a huge moment for our military. This was a uniting moment for this country.

And most people put aside our political divisions. I have great respect for the way the president has done this, because some of the details that are coming out are so interesting. This guy that didn't have any military experience, had to make some pretty tough calls.

The president was offered several options here. He could have bombed the target. He didn't want to do that because that of course would have ruined all of the evidence and, of course, we've got to have proof that Osama bin Laden is dead. It would have killed a lot of innocent people, and this president was very concerned about that.

He could have joined in and done a joint operation with the Pakistanis. But the way things have been going, you know what? He just didn't want to outsource this one.

He turned to those great kids that you saw. He turned to those kinds of Americans to say, you know what? You got to do this job.

This is the time. This is the moment. This is the chance. And we're going to move forward and do it -- just like we said we were going to do it as Americans.

This is leadership at its finest hour.

I believe that this is an end of a chapter and we've all been reminded that we've got to keep up this fight and keep going.

President Obama has proved to the world he not only understands, but exemplifies the pure definition of American exceptionalism._
Ed Schultz: President Obama and American Exceptionalism



 :Smile:

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> _
> The president was offered several options here. He could have bombed the target. He didn't want to do that because that of course would have ruined all of the evidence and, of course, we've got to have proof that Osama bin Laden is dead._


That is true. They could have performed the mission in a way which compromised the evidence, and of course, if there is any mission that requires cast iron evidence to justify all the shit of the last decade - its this.

But they did do it in a way so as to preserve the vital evidence, so they can gainsay critics by turning round and show ........


.....hey where's the evidence gone?????!

----------


## dirtydog

I think the problem lies in that for the past decade or more American presidents have been caught out in too many lies, gives us a blow job Monica "Clinton", weapons of mass destruction "mentally retarded idiot" I wonder if this had been a British operation would there be so many demands for pictures etc.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

*The White House backtracks on Bin Laden*

Mark Mardell | 06:51 UK time, Wednesday, 4 May 2011 - BBC Reporters Blog


The White House has had to correct its facts about the killing of Bin Laden, and for some that has diminished the glow of success that has surrounded all those involved in the operation.
 

Bin Laden wasn't armed when he was shot. It raises suspicions that this was indeed a deliberate shoot-to-kill operation.

Here are the inaccuracies in the first version. The woman killed was not his wife. No woman was used as a human shield. And he was not armed.

The president's press secretary Jay Carney suggested this was the result of trying to provide a great deal of information in a great deal of haste.

I can largely accept that. There is no mileage in misleading people and then correcting yourself. But the president's assistant national security advisor John Brennan had used the facts he was giving out to add a moral message - this was the sort of man Bin Laden was, cowering behind his wife, using her as a shield. Nice narrative. Not true. In fact, according to Carney this unarmed woman tried to attack the heavily armed Navy Seal. In another circumstance that might even be described as brave.

Jay Carney said that Bin Laden didn't have to have a gun to be resisting. He said there was a great deal of resistance in general and a highly volatile fire fight. The latest version says Bin Laden's wife charged at the US commando and was shot in the leg, but not killed. The two brothers, the couriers and owners of the compound, and a woman were killed on the ground floor of the main building. This version doesn't mention Bin Laden's son, who also died.

By this count only three men, at the most, were armed. I do wonder how much fight they could put up against two helicopters' worth of Navy Seals.

Does any of this matter? Well, getting the fact right is always important. You can't make a judgment without them. We all make mistakes, and journalists hate doing so because it makes people trust us less. For those involved an operation like this, time must go past in a confused and noisy instant, and they aren't taking notes. Confusion is very understandable. But you start to wonder how much the facts are being massaged now, to gloss over the less appealing parts of the operation.

And of course there is the suspicion that the US never wanted to take Bin Laden alive. Here at least many see a trial as inconvenient, awkward - a chance for terrorists to grandstand. Look at all the fuss about the trial of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

In the confusion of a raid it's hard to see how the Seals could be sure that Bin Laden wasn't armed, didn't have his finger on the trigger of a bomb, wasn't about to pull a nasty surprise. If he had his hands in the air shouting "don't shoot" he might have lived, but anything short of that seems to have ensured his death.

I suspect there will be more worry about this in Britain and Europe than in the US. That doesn't mean we are right or wrong. It is a cultural difference. We are less comfortable about frontier justice, less forgiving about even police shooting people who turn out to be unarmed, perhaps less inculcated with the Dirty Harry message that arresting villains is for wimps, and real justice grows from the barrel of a gun. Many in America won't be in the slightest bit bothered that a mass murderer got what was coming to him swiftly, whether he was trying to kill anyone in that instant or not.

----------


## rickschoppers

> Originally Posted by mobs00
> 
> I couldn't be bothered reading all 27 pages but I'd like to say that I am an American and I am disgusted at how the death of Osama is being celebrated. How barbaric has the US become when they throw celebrations and the president has a memorial at the site of the twin towers to celebrate the death of another human.
> 
> Kinda reminds me of when muslim extremists party in the street when infidels are killed
> 
> 
> you are obviously not American and a commie bastard traitor,
> 
> why do you hate America ?


Why do you hate America and Americans Butters? You seem to be the number one voice around here thinking the US represents everything bad and sheeplike. Give us some insight.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> I think the problem lies in that for the past decade or more American presidents have been caught out in too many lies, gives us a blow job Monica "Clinton", weapons of mass destruction "mentally retarded idiot" I wonder if this had been a British operation would there be so many demands for pictures etc.


We all know what lies behind the fig leaf of a sweet young thing.

...a great big hairy cock.

----------


## OhOh

> I think the problem lies in that for the past decade or more American presidents have been caught out in too many lies, gives us a blow job Monica "Clinton", weapons of mass destruction "mentally retarded idiot" I wonder if this had been a British operation would there be so many demands for pictures etc.


There would have been an outcry if Bin Laden had been "executed" in this "wild west" fashion. By some anyway  If not "two hats willi" and the "Eton Rifles".

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

Well we'll know all when we see the video that Obama saw.

Except apparently it emerges he didn't. And so there may not even be a video of the shooting.

What a surprise.

----------


## rickschoppers

> anyway, we all agree that Osama has won at the end and the Americans have lost another battle, as always
> 
> he will get his 72 virgins for sure,


I don't agree with anything you say Butters, especially this infantile comment.

----------


## OhOh

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> 
> anyway, we all agree that Osama has won at the end and the Americans have lost another battle, as always
> 
> he will get his 72 virgins for sure,
> 
> 
> I don't agree with anything you say Butters, especially this infantile comment.


A List of recent US victories:

1. Haiti  :AR15firing:  
2. ...................

----------


## sabang

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> 
> anyway, we all agree that Osama has won at the end and the Americans have lost another battle, as always
> 
> he will get his 72 virgins for sure,
> 
> 
> I don't agree with anything you say Butters, especially this infantile comment.


It's totally the opposite of true- the democracy uprisings throughout the middle east have shown AQ to be irrelevant, yesterdays news.. even more so with the dispatching of OBL. It was great to get the bastard, but for symbolic & justice reasons really. His 'cause' of a pan Islamic theocracy was lost ages ago.

----------


## Butterfly

> It's totally the opposite of true- the democracy uprisings throughout the middle east have shown AQ to be irrelevant


OBL target was the overthrow of "western" government in the ME, so far he is succeeding in his targets, while putting the great satan on his knees and showing to the world that Americans are no better than retarded Pakistani tribes supporting AQ

Mission Accomplished, he can rest in peace

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by rickschoppers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Butterfly
> ...


As they are finding out in Egypt and Yemen, your uprising is shit if the Yanks haven't organized the new leader....

----------


## The Muffinman

> I'm sure several of you will thoroughly enjoy this cringeworthy piece of adulatory backslapping-
> 
> 
> 
> _This was a huge moment for our military. This was a uniting moment for this country._
> 
> _And most people put aside our political divisions. I have great respect for the way the president has done this, because some of the details that are coming out are so interesting. This guy that didn't have any military experience, had to make some pretty tough calls._
> 
> _The president was offered several options here. He could have bombed the target. He didn't want to do that because that of course would have ruined all of the evidence and, of course, we've got to have proof that Osama bin Laden is dead. It would have killed a lot of innocent people, and this president was very concerned about that._
> ...


Someone pass me a bucket please.

----------


## Seekingasylum

And so it begins...........

The Daily Telegraph has just reported that the assault team were ordered to kill Bin Laden if he was found to be wearing any clothes because of the assumption that he would be wearing " a suicide vest ". 

I suppose this was the best they could come up with now that the world knows he was unarmed, non violent and posed no risk before he was shot to death. Of course, it's obviously a ludicrous thing to say but it is nevertheless quite revealing in that somewhat belatedly they are beginning to comprehend most of the civilised world will be aghast at the summary execution of this old man.

I rather thought Obama had a bit more class than he evidently has but it seems in trying to satisfy the redneck demand for action he has blundered into a morass of his own making. Chap's just another fried chicken merchant sucking up to the whitey military/industrial combine that runs America.

Nice one Uncle Sam. 

OBL : Think I'll just pop off to bed now dear, feeling a bit tired after writing 
all those memoirs.
Wife : Ok honey, have you had your shower yet ?
OBL : Naah, can't be arsed to take off me suicide vest that what I've been 
wearing for the past 10 years.
Wife : Actually, I've been meaning to tell you this for sometime now but it is
beginning to whiff a bit.
OBL :You think so? Now when was the last time I had it changed. Was it when 
we had the Semtex put in, or was that before we changed to the C4? 
Bugger me if I can remember.
Wife : Now you will be careful with the remote detonation device attached to 
your thumb and forefinger, won't you dear? We don't want a repeat of the last
time you tried to twiddle me niblets, do we? Bleedin'hell, I thought we were 
gonners for sure. You're alright with the dancing with the 72 virgins bit but 
what's in bleedin' store for me?
OBL : Aww, stop fretting woman, but I tell you what. Why don't I forget about 
the technology and we have a bit of the old slap and tickle and if anyone 
comes ( not including me, har har ) that what shouldn't, I 'll just rely on me
backup toggle hanging next to me arse.
Wife : Oh Sammy, what can I say ......give us a kiss (_mounting him but careful_ 
_not to dislodge the 2 kilos of explosives straddling his abdomen)_

_Just another day in the life of a hunted fugitive as imagined by the combined collective might of the CIA,NSA,White House staff, Chiefs of Staff and Hilary Clinton whilst on the rag. God Bless America and Hail the Chief!_

----------


## dirtydog

> The Daily Telegraph has just reported that the assault team were ordered to kill Bin Laden if he was found to be wearing any clothes because of the assumption that he would be wearing " a suicide vest ".


I don't know about suicide vests but imagine they are more uncomfortable and harder to put on than a bullet proof vest, pretty sure if he was naked in bed his first move would be to get a gun.

----------


## Loy Toy

> Someone pass me a bucket please.


What colour?  :Smile:

----------


## larvidchr

^^
No need for a vest but it is not inconceivable that he could have had rigged a external emergency suicide bomb in the house and kept the trigger device nearby at all times.

Considering how many people Osama have been sending of to blow themselves up for the cause it was a real risk he might have contemplated that way out for himself as a last resort.

When you order people in where life's really are at risk you plan for all kinds of possible and also the least likely surprise scenarios, that is the Job of a good leader, to minimize the risks as much as possible in already very dangerous situations.

Why should they take even remote risks on behalf of this scumbag murderer, one more life lost to this asshole because of lacking due diligence would have been one life to many.

----------


## dirtydog

> but it is not inconceivable that he could have had rigged a external emergency suicide bomb in the house and kept the trigger device nearby at all times.


It may not be inconceivable, but even you know its extremely unlikely. He was living in his nice mansion in a nice town for gods sake, not some cave  :Smile:

----------


## dirtydog

People have guns for protection, not suicide vests.

----------


## larvidchr

> Originally Posted by larvidchr
> 
> but it is not inconceivable that he could have had rigged a external emergency suicide bomb in the house and kept the trigger device nearby at all times.
> 
> 
> It *may not be inconceivable,* but even you know its extremely unlikely. He was living in his nice mansion in a nice town for gods sake, not some cave


Is plenty reason enough not to chance anyones life on it  :Wink: , every single one of those seal team members life are worth more than hundreds of scumbag Bin ladens IMO.

This was not a computer game. To many people commenting here that never have had to go into real life threatening situations where decisions must be made in split seconds in extremely volatile changing hostile and chaotic environments with no room for error. 

This firefight lasted all but 2 min. going through 3 floors of that villa and the compound, speed shock and surprise was at the essence, and I'm pretty sure that Osamas wellbeing, as opposed to his demise, was way down on the priority list, just as it should be.

You can rightfully criticize the Americans for lot's of things, but not this one IMO, it's all good  :Smile:

----------


## Seekingasylum

> ^^
> 
> 
> Why should they take even remote risks on behalf of this scumbag murderer, one more life lost to this asshole because of lacking due diligence would have been one life to many.


I see, so slaughtering someone on the grounds of health and safety is the way to go?

" Hey, Mr.President we could say that the whole place was wired to go up and that we thought he had a high frequency transmitter located in every room throughout his compound and around his neck and all he had to do was to press the button and, hell, blow everyone up "

" Mmm.... so how much explosive would that take?"

" Hell, a heck of a lot "

" Would it be under the building or would it be kinda stuck in every room ?"

" Well, if it was under the foundations then it wouldn't, you know, maybe last that long what with the deterioration factor n'all.....maybe not, he was there for 6 years and heck I don't know if any detonator would last that long. Naw, it wouldn't make sense, come to think of it. Maybe we should  say we thought there was just a bomb in his room"

" But what if he got to him and he was, like, somewhere else in the building ..wouldn't he think of that?"

" Yeah, sure, OK let's say we thought there were bombs everywhere "

" What you mean in everywhere room, in the toilets, in the hallways, in the gardens, by the the walls and by the gates.....ain't that just a bit far fetched?"

" Hell, Mr President, it's no more fuckin' dumb than saying he wandered around with a suicide jacket for the past goddamned 6 years, fah Chrissakes!"

" Oh ".

_And then Larvidchr went to bed and dreamed again about how he abseiled down the yellow brick road with a navy walrus for company whistling dixie ,,,,,,_

----------


## DrAndy

> Why should they take even remote risks on behalf of this scumbag murderer,


dunno, but they seemed to have taken some pretty obvious ones invading Afghanistan looking for him

----------


## larvidchr

Quote the gent - _"I see, so slaughtering someone on the grounds of health and safety is the way to go?"_

You bet, if it was my health or safety or that of my colleges, you take calculated risks but dying is not one of them gent, this is the one health risk you do everything you possibly can to avoid.

We are talking about a dangerous criminal mass-murderer here, not a harmless pensioner in a retirement home.

Quote the gent -_ " Mmm.... so how much explosive would that take?"
 " Hell, a heck of a lot "_

You are rambling gent, have you ever seen an IED or any other military grade explosive for that matter, you make some good informed posts sometimes but this is just silly shit.  :Smile:

----------


## sabang

_US President Barack Obama has decided not to release a photograph showing the body of Osama Bin Laden after he was killed by US commandos, US television networks said Wednesday.

In an interview with CBS, Obama said "he won't release post-mortem images of Osama Bin Laden taken to prove his death," the network said in a statement._


 ::chitown::   :mid:

----------


## larvidchr

> _US President Barack Obama has decided not to release a photograph showing the body of Osama Bin Laden after he was killed by US commandos, US television networks said Wednesday.
> 
> In an interview with CBS, Obama said "he won't release post-mortem images of Osama Bin Laden taken to prove his death," the network said in a statement._


 :Sad:  that is a bad decision in my view, the rubbish will never end.

Maybe he is thinking about the economy and all the books movies and following turnover the conspiracy nutters can generate in years to come  :rofl:

----------


## larvidchr

> Originally Posted by larvidchr
> 
> Why should they take even remote risks on behalf of this scumbag murderer,
> 
> 
> dunno, but they seemed to have taken some pretty obvious ones invading Afghanistan looking for him


They certainly have, hopefully most of them absolutely necessary and unavoidable in the best assessments of the decision makers and planners. History will be the judge of that, but that will probably not be a one way street.

----------


## Dan

> I can largely accept that. There is no mileage in misleading people and then correcting yourself.


It's depressing to see BBC journalists make statements that are so obviously wrong. Abstract from a recent study in Psychological Science:



> Media coverage of the 2003 Iraq War frequently contained corrections and  retractions of earlier information. For example,                      claims that Iraqi forces executed coalition  prisoners of war after they surrendered were retracted the day after the  claims                      were made. Similarly, tentative initial reports  about the discovery of weapons of mass destruction were all later  disconfirmed.                      We investigated the effects of these retractions  and disconfirmations on people's memory for and beliefs about  war-related                      events in two coalition countries (Australia and  the United States) and one country that opposed the war (Germany).  Participants                      were queried about (a) true events, (b) events  initially presented as fact but subsequently retracted, and (c)  fictional events.                      Participants in the United States did not show  sensitivity to the correction of misinformation, whereas participants in  Australia                      and Germany discounted corrected misinformation.  Our results are consistent with previous findings in that the  differences                      between samples reflect greater suspicion about the  motives underlying the war among people in Australia and Germany than                      among people in the United States.

----------


## Butterfly

larv, stop sounding like a White House shill, it's embarrassing, even for you

----------


## Boon Mee

Rooters has released some pics:









None of them OBL.  Looks like them boys ^ got stitched up pretty good, eh?

----------


## koman

> To many people commenting here that never have had to go into real life


Now there is one of the most accurate observations in this entire thread.... :Smile: 

Why bother with real life when you have TD.... :Smile:

----------


## mobs00

FT.com / US / Politics & Foreign policy - Bin Laden cost US taxpayers over $2,000bn

Bin Laden cost US taxpayers over $2,000bn

By Alan Beattie in Washington

Published: May 4 2011 21:01 | Last updated: May 4 2011 21:01




> If the $5m price the US put on Osama bin Laden’s head in 1998 had led to his immediate capture and disabled al-Qaeda, it would have been the bargain of the millennium.
> 
> Assuming that the September 11 2001 attacks would not have happened without bin Laden, and that the Afghanistan and Iraq wars would not have happened without September 11, the al-Qaeda leader directly cost American taxpayers more than $2,000bn – and the indirect burden may be much higher.





> A paper by John Mueller at Ohio State university and Mark Stewart at Newcastle University in New South Wales, Australia, argues this response has been expensive and excessive. The authors say the direct cost of extra homeland security expenditure between 2002 and 2011, mainly by the federal government, was $690bn in today’s money, with passenger delays from extra screening and other indirect costs adding another $417bn. In 2009, the total burden came to nearly 1 per cent of gross domestic product.
> 
> Using conservative estimates for the costs of property and life saved, the authors say much of the money is wasted. To be cost-effective, the spending would have to prevent or deter four attacks a day of the type that was foiled last year in Times Square in New York.


-----

Let's take the $2 trillion and divide that by population of the USA which is about 310 million.

This has cost every man woman and child about $6,450.00

Surprise, surprise, the last time the USA balanced it's budget was in 2001 
United States federal budget - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

----------


## bobo746

> Why bother with real life when you have TD


Jesus this is not real life.  :Wink:

----------


## rickschoppers

(CNN) The senior us official also says the White House received 3 sets of photos yesterday. The photos included:
1. Photos of OBLs body at a hangar after he was brought back to Afghanistan. This is the most recognizable with a clear picture of his face. The picture is gruesome because he has a massive open head wound across both eyes. It’s very bloody and gory.
2. Photos from the burial at sea on the USS Carl Vinson. Photos of OBL before the shroud was put on and then wrapped in the shroud.
3. There are photos of the raid itself that include photos of the two dead brothers, one of OBLs dead son (adult adolescent, maybe approx 18 yrs old) and some of the inside scene of the compound.

No matter what is released from now on, there will always be those who do not believe it is real. No amount of evidence can convince a true tin head that this actually happened which is the problem with releasing any picures or videos. This is just a defense mechanism for profound paranoia (hint, hint Butters).

----------


## Butterfly

didn't they kill one of his son too ? what's the legal justification for that again ?

----------


## Butterfly

> Bin Laden cost US taxpayers over $2,000bn


do you think now he is dead that they will stop spending all that silly money ?

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> (CNN) The senior us official also says the White House received 3 sets of photos yesterday. The photos included:
> 1. Photos of OBLs body at a hangar after he was brought back to Afghanistan. This is the most recognizable with a clear picture of his face. The picture is gruesome because he has a massive open head wound across both eyes. It’s very bloody and gory.
> 2. Photos from the burial at sea on the USS Carl Vinson. Photos of OBL before the shroud was put on and then wrapped in the shroud.
> 3. There are photos of the raid itself that include photos of the two dead brothers, one of OBLs dead son (adult adolescent, maybe approx 18 yrs old) and some of the inside scene of the compound.
> 
> No matter what is released from now on, there will always be those who do not believe it is real. No amount of evidence can convince a true tin head that this actually happened which is the problem with releasing any picures of videos.


Or alternatively
_
'No matter what is not released from now on, there will always be those who  do believe it is real.'_

I hate conspiracy theories, from crop circles to alien abduction to faked moon landings, - but there are a number of elements about the management of this particular killing that appears extremely peculiar, and were so from the getgo.

And the ducks line up, as one component after another falls predictably into place.
-the swift burial in the most awkward way possible
-the disclosure he wasn't usng a human shield nor was armed
-video, then no video
-photo, then no photo


Basically I think people just like to use the term _'tin helmet'_ because it makes them feeel cool to think they are on the inside track and have some (taps nose authoritatively) knowledge and confidence. And the easiest way to win a debate is to maintain that the opposite point of view is obviously mad. Far easier than making a case.

Still, I shall be sure to use the term quite a lot when the next Thai election is underway, when people get suspicious that Puea Thai's chances are  being spiked deliberately.

----------


## rickschoppers

That may be your definition of "tin hat" Moog, but here is mine:

*Tin foil hat*

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search 
 
A man wearing a tin foil hat


A *tin foil hat* is a piece of headgear made from one or more sheets of aluminum foil or similar material. Alternatively it may be a conventional hat lined with foil. One may wear the hat in the belief that it acts to shield the brain from such influences as electromagnetic fields, or against mind control and/or mind reading; or attempt to limit the transmission of voices directly into the brain.
The concept of wearing a tin foil hat for protection from such threats has become a popular stereotype and term of derision; the phrase serves as a byword for paranoia and persecutory delusions, and is associated with conspiracy theorists.

----------


## Carrabow

> That may be your definition of "tin hat" Moog, but here is mine:
> 
> *Tin foil hat*
> 
>  the phrase serves as a byword for paranoia and persecutory delusions, and is associated with conspiracy theorists.


 RC, This is 85% of the members of TD  :Confused:  :mid:

----------


## Dan

Jesus, Rick, why don't you try reading and thinking about what people write before you respond. I think you can be quite confident that Moog is fully aware of what tin foil means; he's making a - probably quite correct - point about why you used it in that instance.

----------


## rickschoppers

Jesus, Dan, how could you possibly know how I was using the term "tin hat." I have read this thread from the beginning and take all comments into account before I respond. How I perceive what they write may be different than how you do and that is human behavior. Why are you being so defensive?

----------


## rickschoppers

* 

Laden's daughter says father was taken alive and shot

*

*08:15, May 05, 2011   * 

*Email | Print | Subscribe | Comments | Forum* 

Increases the bookmark
twitterfacebookdiggGoogleWindowsliveDeliciousbuzzfriendfeedLinkedindiigoredditstumbleuponQQ 



Osama bin Laden's daughter claimed yesterday that Laden was captured alive in his Pakistani hideout and then shot to death by US Navy special forces.

Arabic news network Al-Arabiya quoted "senior Pakistani security officials" who said the 12-year-old daughter saw her father was executed by bullets, and then, his body dragged to a waiting U.S. helicopter.

A Pakistani official rejected US accounts of a bloody firefight with bin Laden's bodyguards and associates, saying: 'Not a single bullet was fired from the compound at the United States forces. Their chopper developed a technical fault and crashed and the wreckage was left on the spot."

The channel said the surviving bin Laden relatives, including six children and one of his wives, had been taken to hospital in Rawalpindi. 

And, Amal Al-Sadah, bin Laden's 27-year-old wife and his youngest bride, was shot in the leg during the raid but survived the injury.

Local security officials said they did not find any arms in their search of the compound hiding bin Laden and his men and family members, during which they removed two buffaloes, a cow and 150 chickens.

An official with Pakistan's ISI told the BBC that 17 or 18 people were inside the compound at the time of the attack. They included a daughter of Bin Laden's who saw her father fatally shot by US forces, the official claimed.

The body of bin Laden's son Khalid is understood to have been flown out with the American Navy SEALs, and it is not clear what has happened to it. 

Pentagon sources confirmed the Navy SEALs intended to take Bin Laden's family with them, but abandoned the plan when one of their helicopters crash-landed. No SEAL member was injured.


So is everyone willing to call Osama bin Laden's daughter a liar? What say you Butters?

----------


## Dan

> how could you possibly know how I was using the term "tin hat."


The usual way with written material - by reading it. How do you normally determine what people mean? Telepathy?

----------


## rickschoppers

Dan, do yourself a favor and look up the definition of perception.

----------


## Butterfly

> This is just a defense mechanism for profound paranoia (hint, hint Butters).


says the American who see terrorists everywhere and under his bed  :mid:

----------


## sabang

> So is everyone willing to call Osama bin Laden's daughter a liar?





> Arabic news network Al-Arabiya quoted "senior Pakistani security officials"


Or Al-Arabiya, or unnamed senior Pakistani security officials.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

And what exactly is she alleged to have said? The article says she saw bin Laden shot. Well, we've gathered he was shot. Where though? In the bedroom, or is there some suggestion he was dragged outside, and executed there?

Basing a conspiracy theory on that is like the Birthers basing theirs on a mistranslated interview with one of Obama's auntie's in Kenya.

----------


## Butterfly

> Basically I think people just like to use the term 'tin helmet' because it makes them feeel cool to think they are on the inside track and have some (taps nose authoritatively) knowledge and confidence. And the easiest way to win a debate is to maintain that the opposite point of view is obviously mad. Far easier than making a case.


that's exactly it, rick is your typical American sheep, all he wants is comfort to shield him from the reality of the real world. Basically your typical reactionary conservative. I bet he voted GW Bush and he is an hard core Faux News fan. Probably thought that Saddam had WMD.

----------


## rickschoppers

> Originally Posted by rickschoppers
> 
> This is just a defense mechanism for profound paranoia (hint, hint Butters).
> 
> 
> says the American who see terrorists everywhere and under his bed


You still haven't answered my question about Osama's daughter watching him die.

----------


## sabang

> the reality of the real world.


Ok, heres some reality for ya- OBL was shot dead by Navy Seals. He sleeps with da fishes.

----------


## Butterfly

> You still haven't answered my question about Osama's daughter watching him die


glad you could interview her directly after you personally killed her father,

----------


## Butterfly

> Ok, heres some reality for ya- OBL was shot dead by Navy Seals. He sleeps with da fishes.


how is that reality ? a press release by the White House ?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

you are not so gullible when the Thai government is releasing certain info on your red friends  :Razz:

----------


## rickschoppers

> Originally Posted by rickschoppers
> 
> You still haven't answered my question about Osama's daughter watching him die
> 
> 
> glad you could interview her directly after you personally killed his father,


You really do like to deflect don't you Butthead.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> that's exactly it, rick is your typical American sheep, all he wants is comfort to shield him from the reality of the real world. Basically your typical reactionary conservative. I bet he voted GW Bush and he is an hard core Faux News fan. Probably thought that Saddam had WMD.


I'm aware that for Americans Osama is something of a special case, that for ten years they've been traumatised up the wazoo by his beatific smirk. 

None are ever going to be worried in the slightest by the circumstances of his death. Empathy with Osama is inevitably a taboo issue, and rightly so.

But thats not the point. It was a weird sort of death -  especially the post death actions - and its not a matter of opinion that there are cover ups, the President himself is flat out saying there are - on his orders. 

So for outsiders to say _'hey, set the record straight, don't let the mystique develop into something that people will pester you over for years to come'_ is pretty sound advice.

----------


## Butterfly

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by rickschoppers
> ...


no I was only assuming that you were personally there,

were you ?

----------


## Butterfly

> But thats not the point.


of course it's not the point, by killing the beast, they have become the beast

that's what the American loonies are not getting, the killing itself is not important, it's minor, like 911 was

it's the surrounding, what leads them to become what they became, and they have become their worst enemies, chanting in the streets like savage primitive tribes when an enemy is killed. Civilized and educated citizens don't do that. But after 8 years of Bush brainwashing, it seems that a large part of the US population has been seriously damaged psychologically.

----------


## Butterfly

let's see what God Chomsky have to say on this,

----------


## rickschoppers

> Originally Posted by rickschoppers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Butterfly
> ...


If I said I was, would you believe me?

----------


## Butterfly

apparently on other forums, the "Osama Bin Laden is dead" is bringing the exact same questions we have here,

it's clear that his body must have been in advance decomposition to throw him to the fish

it looks like they shot a dead man  :Razz:

----------


## rickschoppers

"that's what the American loonies are not getting, the killing itself is not important, it's minor, like 911 was"

I think you just stepped over the line Butthead. I don't think anyone in their right mind would agree with you that 9/11 was minor.

----------


## Butterfly

> If I said I was, would you believe me?


of course I would, like you do with anyone who "comfort" you in your bias  :Smile:

----------


## Butterfly

> I don't think anyone in their right mind would agree with you that 9/11 was minor.


of course it was, it lead to an illegal invasion and the killing of thousands more Americans and Iraqi civilians

how can't it be minor ? it was very impressive and spectacular though, it was basically a "shock and awe" campaign by the terrorists and it worked beautifully

----------


## Dan

> I think you just stepped over the line Butthead. I don't think anyone in  their right mind would agree with you that 9/11 was minor.


As atrocities go, it just wasn't that big. Of course, in the mental arithmetic of many Americans (and, weirdly, quite a few non-Americans), 1 dead American = (at least) 1,000 dead anyone-elses so it assumes a size it doesn't have.

----------


## rickschoppers

^^
I've been just playing with you in the past, but now I'm finished. Time to move on to more important folly. I think I will organized a special op at your house Butters. Can you hear the helicopters yet?

----------


## Butterfly

> I think you just stepped over the line


You stepped over the line of stupidity for quite a few posts, dumb American  :Smile:

----------


## rickschoppers

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

----------


## Butterfly

> I think I will organized a special op at your house Butters. Can you hear the helicopters yet?


go get your gear, and bring your black helicopters to the onNut beer garden, I will bring my toy tanks  :Smile:

----------


## Butterfly

> As atrocities go, it just wasn't that big.


it was nothing really, Americans have killed far more people overseas with their own terrorist organization

A lot of Europeans acknowledged after 911 that the Americans fully deserved it, it's a bit taboo to say it publicly, but never saw non-Americans disagree with the idea that America had it coming for a long time, and it was to be expected.

got to give it to AQ, it was very impressive, never seen before, and I think it wouldn't have been possible without the help of the live coverage by CNN

----------


## sabang

> a press release by the White House ?


It is not possible to make a coherent 'Conspiracy theory' out of questioning everything, or denying everything as a lie. Birther stuff again.

There is a crashed US helicopter at the scene- are you denying that?
Are you denying they were carrying a SEAL team? So, Why?
Are you denying they were there to shoot or apprehend OBL? Or perhaps buy candy?

If there is any remotely credible conspiracy to be concocted, it surely must revolve around the lack of _habeus corpus_. Might OBL's body be at Roswell or somewhere? Maybe, although I don't see why. What use is a corpse- you don't need the corpse to get DNA, and positively identify.
Otoh, the existence of a corpse brings many problems. Firstly, it would have involved breaking moslem burial rites- which the islamoloonies take very seriously, so a good pretext for them to stir up trouble. Secondly, his grave would become both a symbol and shrine to one set of nutters, and an object of defacement to another. So even 'If' they have the remains (which i seriously doubt), they ain't gonna admit it.
Taking him alive would have led to other problems. Yes, I believe they wanted him apprehended with, umm, maximum prejudice. No, I do not think they will openly admit that.

So be specific, BF and others. Where is the 'conspiracy' here, and Why?
Do you honestly think this is an elaborate hoax- a 'fake moon landing'?  :rofl:  Why?
Is OBL dead- Yes or No?
Was he shot by Seals? Yes or No.
Corpse taken by helicopter? Yes or No?
I don't give a sparrows fart about what happened to the wretched corpse, but why wouldn't they have disposed of him at sea? Saved a lot of trouble, and religious pot stirring if you ask me.
Releasing of the gruesome photoes would also be seized upon by loonies at both ends of the spectrum. Dead Osama T shirts being worn by Rednecks, or Redneck soldiers in Agfhanistan would not go down well. Neither would blown up photos of his grotesquely distended face (two head shots) at Islamoloonie rallies. I do think they should allow some 'noted people' of all faiths & perspectives to do a 'Visual' on them however.

Naturally the hardcore Loonies will still believe their OBL conspiracies just as we still have, and will always have, some remaining Birthers- and others that believe the Rothschilds are shape shifting reptiles.. only in the US however do they announce a run for President.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Butterfly

> Birther stuff again.


your obsession with birther is impairing your judgement,

because the system will control such things for presidential candidates, it's easy to dismiss that Obama was not born US citizen

if it was possible to cheat the system, you bet the Republicans would have done it a long time ago by pimping their boy, Governator, to the WH

so again your comparison is misplaced and oversimplified,

----------


## Butterfly

> There is a crashed US helicopter at the scene- are you denying that?
> Are you denying they were carrying a SEAL team? So, Why?
> Are you denying they were there to shoot or apprehend OBL? Or perhaps buy candy?


I am denying the story happened as we are told, it's that simple, it's all PR shit

we simply don't know what happened, and we simply don't know who was killed. For all we know, he could have been already dead and they raided an empty compound

once again, no need to go for conspiracy theories, but look how the WH made a story of the fake Jessica rescue in 2003, it was a fucking movie script made for the US military

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

^Fact is Sabang - you don't know either, so acceptance of the official line is conjecture on your part too !

There are no published photos, video or body, and the President admits he's covering it up.

Butterfly made a fair point - you aren't so credulous when it comes to Thai politicians being disingenous, but Thailand doesn't have the monopoly on those.

----------


## Butterfly

> If there is any remotely credible conspiracy to be concocted, it surely must revolve around the lack of habeus corpus. Might OBL's body be at Roswell or somewhere? Maybe, although I don't see why. What use is a corpse- you don't need the corpse to get DNA, and positively identify.
> Otoh, the existence of a corpse brings many problems. Firstly, it would have involved breaking moslem burial rites- which the islamoloonies take very seriously, so a good pretext for them to stir up trouble. Secondly, his grave would become both a symbol and shrine to one set of nutters, and an object of defacement to another. So even 'If' they have the remains (which i seriously doubt), they ain't gonna admit it.
> Taking him alive would have led to other problems. Yes, I believe they wanted him apprehended with, umm, maximum prejudice. No, I do not think they will openly admit that.


try to read yourself without bursting into laughing,

look at your bias, you are finding "justification" for a story that you intuitively know doesn't make sense, and by it you sound more like a nutter from the tea party and the bither gathering than any other conspiracy theory

"if, if, if, they had to, they had to"

JC, sab, wake up  :Smile:

----------


## Butterfly

> but Thailand doesn't have the monopoly on those.


definitely, European governments are very good at PR manipulation, look at the UK, and how Cameron is fucking everyone over with a smile and a Press Release

Communication is used as a weapon of Mass Destruction these days,

----------


## Butterfly

> So be specific, BF and others. Where is the 'conspiracy' here, and Why?
> Do you honestly think this is an elaborate hoax- a 'fake moon landing'? Why?
> Is OBL dead- Yes or No?
> Was he shot by Seals? Yes or No.
> Corpse taken by helicopter? Yes or No?


I am questioning what happened and how it happened, and who was killed exactly ?

OBL dead is not the issue per se, it's all the PR circus and excessive manipulation around it, and for that Osama should be ashamed along with the American public. Some Americans are actually mad over this, and rightly so, because they have a good sense of taste and righteous, and thank god, they aren't all the same.

The sea story doesn't make any logical sense. It only makes sense if you want to hide something, which they did. Personally I think they came too late and shot a dead corpse or maybe OBL was in the process of being mummified. You can't show a fucking mummy on TV, first that would look fake, and then WTF ? a dead mummy is a thing and therefore could be thrown overboard like it was supposedly for OBL  :mid:

----------


## Boon Mee

Don't know why you are getting so worked up there Butterfly, the POS is dead and sleeps with the fishes and that's that.  Al Quidea's #2 is not well-liked or respected by them so the fat lady has sung.  :Smile:

----------


## Butterfly

> Don't know why you are getting so worked up


simply quite surprised by the stupidity of the American public and Obama, that's all

you were right about Obama, he might be a fraud after all  :Smile:

----------


## Seekingasylum

> of course it's not the point, by killing the beast, they have become the beast


Oh dear, Butterfly's been reading " Lord of the Flies " again.

The beast is of course in us all and is as much a part of the human condition as it is to deny it. Cleaving to religion does help I suppose in the justification of actions that may drag us down into those murky depths of our savagery and it is not entirely insignificant that the Navy Seal senior officer was reported to have relayed the success of the assassination by yelling " For God and Country, Geronimo,Geronimo, Geronimo. 

Mom's apple pie never tasted sweeter, it seems.

Allah Akhbar!

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> the existence of a corpse brings many problems. Firstly, it would have involved breaking moslem burial rites- which the islamoloonies take very seriously,


I can assure you a Muslim takes being shot to death by a US soldier even more seriously.

For a killer to express a sensitivity about his victim's funeral is laughable.

----------


## good2bhappy

> Personally I think they came too late and shot a dead corpse or maybe OBL was in the process of being mummified.


Burial should happen within 24 hours
They wouldn't mumify the corpse
He was alive, he died at the hands of the "Power"
The US has their retribution
He has his martydom
both sides should be happy

----------


## Butterfly

you dispose of evidence when you want to hide something,

911 Pentagon video,

Osama corpse,

Roswell  :Razz:

----------


## Boon Mee

> I can assure you a Muslim takes being shot to death by a US soldier even more seriously.


Or a Brit soldier for that matter.  Especially if the round was wrapped as they were in bacon fat which ignited the Indian Mutiny.

----------


## good2bhappy

looking at the last few months in the Arab world , it can be seen that the people have rejected the concept of a universal Caliphate and have embrassed democracy and the will of the people.
The concept of Al-Qaeda is meaningless
The cancer was already in regression

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Originally Posted by The_Ghost_Of_The_Moog
> 
> 
> I can assure you a Muslim takes being shot to death by a US soldier even more seriously.
> 
> 
> Or a Brit soldier for that matter.  Especially if the round was wrapped as they were in bacon fat which ignited the Indian Mutiny.



...or a Brit soldier.

And to express a wish that their victim has a dignified and appropriate funeral in keeping with their beliefs (at the same time as boasting about slotting them), is utterly nonsensical.

----------


## Seekingasylum

Absolutely, we strapped the mutinous buggers across the muzzle of a 12 pounder and blew them across the Deccan. Now that's what I call a burial rite. Kept the sepoys honest for years afterwards.

----------


## Boon Mee

> Absolutely, we strapped the mutinous buggers across the muzzle of a 12 pounder and blew them across the Deccan. Now that's what I call a burial rite. Kept the sepoys honest for years afterwards.


Fitting payback for the Well at Crawnpore... :Confused:

----------


## sabang

Thats where the term 'blown away' originated.  :Smile:  True.

----------


## Boon Mee

Have y'all seen this report on the stealth helicopters used in OBL's demise?

Top Secret Stealth Helicopter Program Revealed in Osama Bin Laden Raid: Experts - ABC News

----------


## Boon Mee

Getting back to the topic of Obama's steely resolve and what a 'ballsy' leader he is, the following information is of some interest.

Presidential aides have given countless briefings presenting Barack  Obama as a decisive commander in chief with a studied calm and steely  resolve since Bin Laden was killed.
 But fresh details emerged last night that it actually took 16 hours for him to decide that the worlds most wanted terrorist should be taken out.
 Far from making his mind up quickly, Mr Obama kept his top military  officials waiting overnight before finally telling them: Its a go'

Osama bin Laden had cash totaling 500 Euros and two telephone numbers  sewn into his clothing when he was killed  sure signs that he was prepared to flee  his compound at a moments notice  top U.S. intelligence officials  told members of Congress at a classified briefing in the Capitol Tuesday.

George Bush was relentlessly mocked for waiting seven minutes  (actually waiting for his security detail to ready the exit and for his  vehicle to be readied) before leaving the school he was visiting. He  calmly finished reading My Pet Goat for the kids before going to his  now-ready helicopter.
 On the other hand, after Obama was told (most likely for the  fifteenth time) that the CIA was really, really, really quite confident  that Osama bin Ladin was at that compound in Abbottabad, he decided he  needed to sleep on it.
 Sixteen hours later (hours during which Osama might have fled bear  in mind, his couriers name had just been outed by WikiLeaks), he made  up his mind

----------


## Boon Mee

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by The_Ghost_Of_The_Moog
> ...


Got that right as the following graphically illustrates:

                      In explaining his choice not to release the Osama Bin Laden death photos, Mr. Obama said that, “We don’t need to spike the football.  Given the graphic nature of these photos it would create a national security risk.”CBS reported:

 We certainly wouldn’t want to “spike the football” and upset the Muslim radicals or they might disrespect and abuse our soldiers like they did to Private Kristian Menchaca (left) and Private Thomas Tucker in Iraq.



Private Kristian Menchaca (left) of Houston and Private Thomas Tucker of  Oregon were captured by terrorists in Iraq, hacked to death, their eyes  gouged, their bodies defiled. The bodies of the two soldiers were  apparently dragged behind utility vehicles before being mutilated.  It took the search team 12 hours  to reach Pfc. Kristian Menchaca of Houston and Pfc. Thomas L. Tucker of  Madras, Ore., because soldiers had to make their way through numerous  explosive devices set along the road and around the bodies themselves.



On March 31, 2004,  four men working for Blackwater USA as security guards — Scott  Helvenston, Wesley Batalona, Jerry Zovko and Michael Teague — were  ambushed by insurgents in Fallujah. They were killed, their bodies  burned and mutilated, and two were strung up on a bridge over the  Euphrates. The insurgents made their own video of the attack,  broadcasting the images around the world.  The Obama administration prosecuted the SEALs who captured and slapped the mastermind behind the Fallujah killings


the Al Qaeda-linked group led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi beheaded American contractor Eugene Armstrong in Iraq.  The posted the video online



The body of a dead US soldier being dragged through the streets of Mogadishu by Islamists

And, the one that gives Ray Carey wood!


Al-qaeda beheaded Nick Berg in Iraq.  The video was a big hit for the Islamists

Obama doesn't get it that these Islamists just plain want to kill us.  Rules of civility and so-called sparing their sensitivities? :rofl:

----------


## HermantheGerman

> I don't give a sparrows fart about what happened to the wretched corpse, but why wouldn't they have disposed of him at sea? Saved a lot of trouble, and religious pot stirring if you ask me.


Hope they didn't dumb his body near Japan. With all that radioactivity in the ocean Osama might be in the making of "Scream 5".
Butterfly take it from here...you got the best imagination to make this a top seller.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

Re Bastards post above....

Argue this you f*cking liboturds! Good post and a good reminder!

----------


## Norton

> Re Bastards post above....


Must have been a good one. Mods have trashed. Looked back a couple of pages and no post by a member named Bastard.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Re Bastards post above....
> 
> Argue this you f*cking liboturds! Good post and a good reminder!


Correct - they hate Americans. 

So how does America solve it,  crush them or try to work out how to fix it (the latter might make sense given a loss of an American soldier seems to hurt their sensibilities more than a death of an Muslim affects the other side).

Try to stop propping up the Sauds? Try to stop being quite so nice to Israel? Try to resist having idiots like General Janis running Abu Ghraib?

But it seems that the USA hasn't in the last 10 years tried to fix the  reasons why people don't like them. It just bulldozes forward yelling .....USA USA USA - with its fingers in its ears.

----------


## Boon Mee

Just in...doesn't look like we're going to see the video from Osamas funeral where they prayed for his soul to be spared from eternal hellfire... :mid:

----------


## MakingALife

OBL, regardless of his lack of details (which will eventually follow), was justified in execution.  

To those who say the rules of law are violated, and this was wild west vigilante justice... My answer is that Osama had the blood of many on his hands, and by that connection, He deserved his fate.

To those who say the US, by these actions has been reduced to an ethical position equal or below the Islamic terrorists - You are full of shit.   Everything about this strike against OBL - was a careful choice to minimize collateral damage in that neighborhood.   Terriorists who target - always act to maximized loss of life and collateral damage.   There are vast differences here.

Dont think for a moment that the big chase is over.  All of the intelligence information taken from the digital raid conducted, will be put through the mill and will generate a fast track campaign to capture or kill the many operatives and leadership remaining in the organization.    There will be more unilateral actions, till the many heads of this terriorist organization are taken down and neutralized.  I am  behind these future efforts, regardless of methods used, or the so called rule of law massaged by that process.  

Further the political connections exposed, if detailed in the digital raid,  will be used to redraw a part of the foreign policy between the US and some of these two faced regimes.   Regimes who receive a lot of US Aid but who dont dance to the expected tune, will see their funding cut and the will have to self support themselves against their own external threats.   That will be their fates, for showing a blind eye towards the stated goal of conducting a war on terrorism.  

The choice of words is very clear there...  A WAR ON TERROR....   Its not been called a judicial process designed to minimize terror...   

Terrorism, by its tactics and objective are strong on brutality, and ethic-less in that pursuit.   This kind of agenda, has inflicted a lot of casualties.  It's eradication requires equal or harsher methods to be effective.   That is the simple truth.   

There are no  ethics involved in a spontaneous street fight, only a defender and an aggressor.   The rules of law try to interpret the results, but have little influence on the process.   Terrorist operatives and planners - establish themselves in the aggressor role and will remain in that role as long as the adhere to their philosophical beliefs and actionable paths.   

People who argue, the rule of law questions, or who decry lack of justice or mercy...  Its pretty clear that vitims of terrorist acts  - neither are shown mercy, nor are they killed through any act of justice.  

What is very clear here is that the code of conduct that underpins those who engage in radicalized terrorism and those pursuits =  Is now being applied to them as well.     They want to live by the sword and kill innocents,  they will die by the sword, regardless of their postures in the end game.   AS IT SHOULD BE.    People can disagree all they want here,  but dont expect to alter my beliefs expressed here.   

Expect either that the US will use every bit of the latest intell to make another large dent in ALQ and those identified paths from the latest intell to mop up  key players.  They will be caught by leads, interrogated, prosecuted or disposed of as corpses. As the case may be....   Based on a protocol currently in formulation.   

There is much more to come from this story.   Whats left of ALQ in any organized form will be swept up to clear that garbage from humanity.   People are going to get dirty in that process, because that work is never clean.     

To those who say torture is not a viable method to supplement interrogation.   Its been used for many centuries to deal with prisoners in conflict, and its not going away any time soon.  The Geneva convention was built up on the idea that some measure of civil treatment and elimination of torture was relevant for most rank and file soldiers in armed combat...   

The soldier / conflict relationship does not really apply to terrorists - who engage innocent soft targets for the brunt of their destruction.   Its not the same relationship as a trained military soldier operating under a rules of engagement.   Its a very different from a terrorist / innocent  relationship.   Geneva shouldn't apply, neither should fair treatment apply against known acknowledged terrorist operatives and their leaders.   Offering them justice, when their effectiveness is based solely upon execution of unjust actions, is a cruel double standard.   

The newer torture methods are clearly less lethal, but still require high intelligence to be used effectively, sure it can be over done to a point of ineffectiveness.  That is part of the learning curve involved.  Better to use it against terrorists operatives to break the back of those deadly organizations, than wait for some admission to take place in a court of law - under cross exam under oath.   That will never happen....  

When it comes to its use in those suspected of terriorism actions or connections,  then there exists no logic or philosophy to suggest it is inappropriate.    

Same argument apply s to the execution of terrorists, particularly those who brag about their pursuits and acknowledge them  before the world......  There is no  logic or philosophy to suggest killing them for their chosen path of killing innocent civilians, is not warranted or justified.   Whether they are killed with guns in their hand, or kneeling in prayer before bed time - its a moot point.   

Yea my position may seem hard line, but Its one I freely take, base upon my own belief and sense of fairness - when stepping back far enough to see the picture.    Stay tuned because there will be a lot more to come from the pursuit of terrorist operatives, and as well to the story behind OBL demise.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Just in...doesn't look like we're going to see the video from Osamas funeral where they prayed for his soul to be spared from eternal hellfire...


Yep they can't let us see that video. 

If the Mullah got the prayers accurate, it humanises him, and the USA won't allow that.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> you dispose of evidence when you want to hide something,
> 
> 911 Pentagon video,
> 
> Osama corpse,
> 
> Roswell


Agree - well, maybe not Roswell..

----------


## Seekingasylum

Given the way Blackwater, specifically, and the Americans, generally, went about the occupation of Iraq it was scarcely surprising that butchery occurred.

There are consequences and if you don't like the heat why bother going into the kitchen? Invading a country, destabilising it to the point where only anarchy could reign and you bitch about a few dumb grunts getting some of their own medicine?

Try to see it from the point of view of the oppressed and maybe you might begin to understand. 

But please, kindly desist from the whining about atrocities committed by those nasty bogeymen Mussies. Anyone would think Vietnam had never happened and the daily butchery of poor innocent peasant villagers by cretinous 19 year old psycopaths from Fuckwitzville, Alabama led by gormless ROTC nerds hadn't taken place.

"For Gawd and Country, all Hail the Chief !"

About time you septics grew up and stopped thinking the world is an extension of your own pious wasteland. It's just so crude and, frankly, tedious.
You guys just have to accept the unpalatable fact that in reality there is little difference between yourselves and those legions of the antichrist you would wish to slaughter.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Sorry Obama, your whiny excuses don't cut it. Show the picture, the Mussies love this kind of shit.

----------


## sabang

Basically MAL (#865) , you've got the US right wing absolutely seething over the fact that Obama has mounted a successful and daring operation, spiked in popularity, and achieved in two years what Bush could not in the eight years following 911. You've got some people actually disappointed that OBL was despatched with such efficiency- no convenient 'bad guy' left now, no convenient thorn in Obama's side now. No 'weak President, libbie' left now either, no closet Muslim. No OBL left to blame the Arab democratic uprisings on- the Arab despots must be seething too. And of course you've got the the usual peanut gallery- waddya expect, it's the internet. They're disappointed at the lack of drama, it's all so anticlimatic. It's a game changer- more so on the US political front frankly, than in the 'War on Terror'.

Left are some questions- was it 'the right thing' to despatch rather than detain him, was it 'the right thing' to sleep him with the fishes rather than taking his vile corpse back to the US, or Gitmo or wherever. More the libby brigade here, and at least questions worth asking. It was the right thing, imho. No corpse, no trial, no shrine to make an object of martyrdom. Just ignominy, and anonymity. Underlying message- don't fuk with da Heat.

But you can't change one thing. Osama bin Laden is Dead! Yippeee!!!
Nothing can bring back his victims, and the loss suffered by many others.
But don't waste your time playing the sympathy card with me, or them.
Well done to the planners and executors of the mission.
Sympathy in the Muslim world is rather low on the ground too.  :Smile:

----------


## HermantheGerman

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> 
> you dispose of evidence when you want to hide something,
> 
> 911 Pentagon video,
> 
> Osama corpse,
> 
> ...


How about those airplane stripes. They are trying to slowly kill U.S. with biological/chemical weapons. I'am staying right here with my PC and not going out anymore.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Underlying message- don't fuk with da Heat.


I hope you're listening, red shirts !

----------


## Dan

> Underlying message- don't fuk with da Heat.


Do you really think that's how it'll be interpreted on the jihadi videos and in the back-street meetings? Or will it be - See their double standards. See the lies they tell. See how little their talk of law and justice and democracy really means. And I really don't think getting shot by the Americans - however macho it's made to sound - is going to put off the young men looking forward to martyrdom operations.

----------


## sabang

^^ I hope you're listening, Amart!

----------


## Norton

> I'am staying right here with my PC and not going out anymore.


Good thinking Herman. Stay put. Satthahip a bit dangerous though. Hun Sen is planning air strike on sitting duck Thai aircraft carrier.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> What is very clear here is that the code of conduct that underpins those who engage in radicalized terrorism and those pursuits = Is now being applied to them as well. They want to live by the sword and kill innocents, they will die by the sword, regardless of their postures in the end game. AS IT SHOULD BE. People can disagree all they want here, but dont expect to alter my beliefs expressed here


Agree with this and for far too long encouragement, appeasement, discussion, politics, turning the other cheek, negotiating simply hasn't worked so better late than never it's time for proactive action to be taken against these terrorists. OBL encouraged the kidnapping and slaughter of innocents across the globe and justly received exactly what he gave to so many others...death without mercy!

This "War on Terror" isn't solely an American war it's the civilised world that must to work togther against all islamic terrorists. It's certain that any of their own people don't want to be ruled by the likes of OBL or the teletubbies and that's been clearly illustrated.

In the past it's alwys been so easy to gain support from the uneducated ignorant muzzies as for generations they've been conditioned to blindly follow their elders and leaders, maybe that's beginning to change slowly? 

The corrupti paki officials knew more than they dare to admit and the anger they're showing now only goes to show what a backward nation they really are and of course the fact they've no conscience when it comes to facilitating safe havens for scum like OBL!

I'm not pro American but I have to say congratulations to the professionals who made this action work! "WELL DONE".

Now without doubt the liboturds around the globe are wailing and gnashing their teeth, tough titty you spineless arseholes sit back and watch the professionals repeat this action again soon, hopefully very soon!  :rofl:

----------


## tuktukdriver

25 people turn up in Gaza to denounce America for the killing. I think more people turned up on this thread to do the same.

----------


## sabang

^^ Sympathy in the Arab/ Islam world is very low on the ground, Dan. A 'sympathy' rally in Gaza attracted, like, 40 people. Even that made the press.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Truth be told, AQ had already lost. Few want their vision of a theocratic society. But eliminating OBL was nothing but good news, on several levels- not least symbolic..

----------


## BobR

_"Navy Seals feared he was reaching for a nearby weapon, U.S. officials said."_


This should be called the LAPD plan after the Los Angeles Police.  They've been shooting Black people for years and using this line to justify it.  Seems to work well.

----------


## HermantheGerman

> But you can't change one thing. Osama bin Laden is Dead! Yippeee!!!
> Nothing can bring back his victims, and the loss suffered by many others.
> But don't waste your time playing the sympathy card with me, or them.
> Well done to the planners and executors of the mission.
> Sympathy in the Muslim world is rather low on the ground too.


I agree !
Now is a good time to reshovel the cards.


For the conspiracy folks: 
Bin Laden is Alive ! He has been spotted in Jerusalem dressed as a Hasadic Jew.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Do you really think that's how it'll be interpreted on the jihadi videos and in the back-street meetings? Or will it be - See their double standards. See the lies they tell. See how little their talk of law and justice and democracy really means. And I really don't think getting shot by the Americans - however macho it's made to sound - is going to put off the young men looking forward to martyrdom operations.


Do you really believe they're capable of discussing "justice and democracy" let alone understanding it? Don't make me laugh!  :rofl: 

It's wasn't about about putting of the young muzzie scum, it was about cutting of the head of a major terrorist group (sorry blowing it off) and gaining intelligence that will help to further frustrate this murdering muzzie scum.  

And if you're so worried about muzzie scum carrying out increased martydom actions on basis of OBL being shot, stay in bed it's a dangerous world out there!  :Smile:

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> ^^ I hope you're listening, Amart!


But its the Amart who own the heat. 

i.e the tanks and weapons. 

They're the Establishment in the same way Barack Obama is. ....if there's a script parallel.

----------


## Butterfly

> Originally Posted by sabang
> 
> 
>  Underlying message- don't fuk with da Heat.
> 
> 
> I hope you're listening, red shirts !


indeed, and see sab go apeshit when that happens and start putting up all kind of conspiracy theories of his own  :bunny3:

----------


## Butterfly

> ^^ I hope you're listening, Amart!


oh oh, someone missed a clue  :rofl:

----------


## Butterfly

> Bin Laden is Alive ! He has been spotted in Jerusalem dressed as a Hasadic Jew.


he is probably reading this thread laughing too,

----------


## sabang

Well, they're certainly listening in the Arab world, aren't they?  :mid: 
To their own people that is. Including people that work for da heat.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 
Been a lot of change these last few months.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> "Navy Seals feared he was reaching for a nearby weapon, U.S. officials said."


Maybe there was confusion and it was his wife that was reaching for his weapon?  :Confused: 




> They've been shooting Black people for years and using this line to justify it.


Not sure about it working well against the blacks? 

They appear to have shot many of all colours and races, the policy of shoot first and maybe ask questions later seems to work well.

(for the police that is). :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Dan

> Sympathy in the Arab/ Islam world is very low on the ground, Dan. A  'sympathy' rally in Gaza attracted, like, 40 people. Even that made the  press.


I'm assuming that even the Americans don't want to stand up and announce to the Muslim world en masse "yer a bunch er kunts an eyell av the ferkin lot of yer", not least because I doubt there are many there over the age of 3 who need be reminded of America's extreme willingness to do exactly that. No. If there is a message I suspect it's from Obama to the American people and the message is, 'I'm not Jimmy Carter'.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> But its the Amart who own the heat. i.e the tanks and weapons. They're the Establishment in the same way Barack Obama is. ....if there's a script parallel.


That's right but they won't have their used subs before the next election (if there is one?) and that could put them at a distinct disadvantage should there be waterborne unrest?  :rofl:

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Must have been a good one. Mods have trashed. Looked back a couple of pages and no post by a member named Bastard.




Sorry for any confusion...written in haste, but most of the mods on here are wankers! 

Oooooooooppsss that's me being suspended now.  :rofl:

----------


## larvidchr

> Basically MAL (#865) , you've got the US right wing absolutely seething over the fact that Obama has mounted a successful and daring operation, spiked in popularity, and achieved in two years what Bush could not in the eight years following 911. You've got some people actually disappointed that OBL was despatched with such efficiency- no convenient 'bad guy' left now, no convenient thorn in Obama's side now. No 'weak President, libbie' left now either, no closet Muslim. No OBL left to blame the Arab democratic uprisings on- the Arab despots must be seething too. And of course you've got the the usual peanut gallery- waddya expect, it's the internet. They're disappointed at the lack of drama, it's all so anticlimatic. It's a game changer- more so on the US political front frankly, than in the 'War on Terror'.
> 
> Left are some questions- was it 'the right thing' to despatch rather than detain him, was it 'the right thing' to sleep him with the fishes rather than taking his vile corpse back to the US, or Gitmo or wherever. More the libby brigade here, and at least questions worth asking. It was the right thing, imho. No corpse, no trial, no shrine to make an object of martyrdom. Just ignominy, and anonymity. Underlying message- don't fuk with da Heat.
> 
> But you can't change one thing. Osama bin Laden is Dead! Yippeee!!!
> Nothing can bring back his victims, and the loss suffered by many others.
> But don't waste your time playing the sympathy card with me, or them.
> Well done to the planners and executors of the mission.
> Sympathy in the Muslim world is rather low on the ground too.


Good post Sab,

Yes a game changer alright, if it wasn't already secure this thing for sure bought Obama a second term, even if it is shallow this is the kind of stuff that moves/secures votes, especially in the US.

Dispatching Osama in a way that leaves very little room for Islamic radical hero worship, and the reactions so far from the Muslim world suggests that things are looking up, cautious optimism is allowed.

 :Smile:

----------


## robuzo

> Sympathy in the Arab/ Islam world is very low on the ground, Dan. A  'sympathy' rally in Gaza attracted, like, 40 people. Even that made the  press.
> 			
> 		
> 
> I'm assuming that even the Americans don't want to stand up and announce to the Muslim world en masse "yer a bunch er kunts an eyell av the ferkin lot of yer", not least because I doubt there are many there over the age of 3 who need be reminded of America's extreme willingness to do exactly that. No. If there is a message I suspect it's from Obama to the American people and the message is, 'I'm not Jimmy Carter'.


Carter did try a rescue mission which failed due to some very bad luck. There was no way the Iranians were going to release the hostages anyway until Reagan got elected- they kept their end of the "October Surprise" bargain (Reagan may not have known about the deal personally). It would turn out not to be the first time Reagan's team traded arms for hostages.

Had the mission Obama signed off on this time failed the Rethugs would have crucified him. Their patriotism is extremely shallow.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Yes a game changer alright, if it wasn't already secure this thing for  sure bought Obama a second term, even if it is shallow this is the kind  of stuff that moves/secures votes, especially in the US.


Well that ain't true, the average 'merkin voter has the attention span of a mosquito with Alzheimers.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> But please, kindly desist from the whining about atrocities committed by those nasty bogeymen Mussies. Anyone would think Vietnam had never happened and the daily butchery of poor innocent peasant villagers by cretinous 19 year old psycopaths from Fuckwitzville, Alabama led by gormless ROTC nerds hadn't taken place.


I'm sure everyone would "desist from the whining about atrocities" if you stop carping on about Vietnam and many other atrocities which have absolutely nothing to do with this thread, which in case you missed it... is the shooting / death of OBL. 




> About time you septics grew up and stopped thinking the world is an extension of your own pious wasteland. It's just so crude and, frankly, tedious.


Pious and tedious applies equally to your self-righteous judgments and strange thoughts not to mention the many pompous posts you've made.




> You guys just have to accept the unpalatable fact that in reality there is little difference between yourselves and those legions of the antichrist you would wish to slaughter.


By whos judgement yours? 

Yet again another fine example of your self-righteous, pompous, verbose, supercilious thinking! 

It appears you revel in using long winded and complicated wording when it's content is so often boring and completely irrelevant, do you stand in front of a mirror everyday practicing how to bore people with your arrogance? 

p.s. By the way it's "psychopaths". :rofl:

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Well that ain't true, the average merkin voter has the attention span of a mosquito with Alzheimers.


"arry" I understand what you mean BUT.... a "merkin" is a pubic wig and as far as I know they look good, but can't vote?


Nice insult "arry"..carry on regardless!

----------


## sabang

> If there is a message I suspect it's from Obama to the American people and the message is, 'I'm not Jimmy Carter'.


You have a point. Obama is the consummate politician- some risk involved in this meticulously planned operation, but he knew what he was doing and why. The lo risk approach would have been to bomb the shiite out of the compound.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> Well that ain't true, the average merkin voter has the attention span of a mosquito with Alzheimers.
> 
> 
> "arry" I understand what you mean BUT.... a "merkin" is a pubic wig and as far as I know they look good, but can't vote?
> 
> 
> Nice insult "arry"..carry on regardless!


Can't get nuffink past you, can I Rodders? Good spot old boy.

 :Smile:

----------


## Humbert

> a "merkin" is a pubic wig


Thanks for clearing that up. I was under the impression that a 'merkin' was a chest toupee. Mistaken knowledge gained by watching too much Johnny Carson who no doubt sanitized his version of the definition to appease the NBC censors. :Smile:

----------


## Mr R Sole

I want photo's Obama says he won't release them because they are gruesome...what a crock of shit that is....get em' online ya pussy

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> For the conspiracy folks: 
> Bin Laden is Alive ! He has been spotted in Jerusalem dressed as a Hasadic Jew.


Fuk some of you guys just don't get it do you? By covering up all the evidence the US leaves itself wide open to these claims.

You think you're funny? Well think about this.. Two weeks from now another Osama video pops up and he shows us a newspaper headline that he's dead. Then he taunts the USA for its childish trick - and one that will be believed by millions of Muslims. 

He may well be dead and gutted by now. But by trying to hide things (which will certainly be the truth - not the BS story of giving him a Muslim burial at sea) the US has been left wide open to a counter-trick by muslim extremists 

The US keeps changing its story which only makes it look even stupider by the hour. He was reaching for his gun, he was swinging like a chimp, he was lying in wait, he was hiding behind his wife, whatever.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> The US keeps changing its story which only makes it look even stupider by the hour. .


Yes precisely, changng the spin or 180 degree fact changes are the worst thing anyone can do. Especially if the Press is involved.

Same same if one finds oneself in a Police Station. Resist the temptation to tell your side and explain everything - such a human urge. You'll only muck it up and incriminate yourself.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer
> 
> 
> The US keeps changing its story which only makes it look even stupider by the hour. .
> 
> 
> Yes precisely, changng the spin or 180 degree fact changes are the worst thing anyone can do. Especially if the Press is involved.


The thing I find most incredible is that this is the US doing this - I mean these are really cartoon-like Thai-style statements and corrections being issued! If it was the White House or State Dept handling it, the spin would be near-perfect. Which further makes me believe this is some other agency responsible for this - and hence what they are telling us is bullshit - how much? I don't know. It's certainly not an exageration to say what was originally great news has turned into a farcical, yet more to the point, PR disater for the entire US administration and its elite forces.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> I want photo's Obama says he won't release them because they are gruesome...what a crock of shit that is....get em' online ya pussy


Maybe they're trying to work out which is OBL's best side to release, if indeed he ever had a best side that is?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## buriramboy

What's this bollox about burying him at sea so they don't create a shrine for people to worship, what do they think people will do at the house where he was executed?? They have created an ever lasting shrine at Abbotabad.

----------


## Humbert

> The thing I find most incredible is that this is the US doing this - I mean these are really cartoon-like Thai-style statements and corrections being issued! If it was the White House or State Dept handling it, the spin would be near-perfect


Why don't you post some of the stuff that has your panties in such a twist.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

Why don't you read in a bit yourself instead of always asking everyone to explain everything to you like some kind of knucklehead?

----------


## Humbert

Well Tommy, maybe what I read is not what you read or is that too fucking difficult for you to understand.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Originally Posted by The_Ghost_Of_The_Moog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer
> ...


Its a GroupThink conclusion. i.e a bad irrational decision from a group of experienced rational people.

Why? Abu Ghraib was a PR disaster for the USA. Those photos of abuse were so powerful and are counterpoint for all those comparable (worse) images of acts carried out. 

They don't want more iconic images emerging as rallying points.

But its too late, they've said they exist and out they must come. 


On the sea burial - well I still don't think he's down there, but now thats a problem, as there is a film of what might be a respectful oratory on deck - and thats nshowable too. 

So its a big mess really. In their haste to have shown off they will extract defeat from the jaws of PR victory.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> What's this bollox about burying him at sea


I'm waiting for Greenpeace to kick up about the Yanks throwing their trash into the ocean!

----------


## Seekingasylum

> Do you really believe they're capable of discussing "justice and democracy" let alone understanding it? Don't make me laugh!


They are probably as capable as you but, admittedly, that isn't saying much.

Americans have killed, injured and displaced more innocent folk in the name of their justice and democracy than any muslim jihadist organisation. 

To some in the US, and here I refer to the average citizen possessing several brain cells more than the rednecked inbred moron of Deliverance fame but who still has difficulty in reading anything more challenging than Rifle Weekly, this sad fact is nothing more than an inconvenient truth to be ignored. Quite how any American could possibly argue a moral supremacy about anything very much when they have that great big black V to remind them of this inconvenient truth is beyond me. But then, their country was established upon genocide so I suppose it's in their mongrel, immigrant blood.

E pluribus unum but presumably that excludes all those " nasty mussie scum ".

You stupid little feckwit.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> They are probably as capable as you but, admittedly, that isn't saying much.


As usual languishing in the belief of your superior intellect when the fact of the matter is you’re as bigoted as any one posting here. 
You’re continued sniping and sneering at the USA illustrates a deep routed inadequacy as does your ability to bore people with your pious, wordy and sanctimonious diatribe!
Resorting to personal insults shows a personal and basic weakness also your inability to accept any other peoples viewpoints.
Have a great day you conceited tosser!  :rofl: 




> E pluribus unum but presumably that excludes all those " nasty mussie scum ".

----------


## tuktukdriver

Here's some graphic ones for you....

http://www.calgarysun.com/2011/05/04...den-raid-house

----------


## Seekingasylum

Typical response but what else could you possibly offer? The truth is incontrovertible and rather speaks for itself as indeed does your inability to deal with it.

----------


## harrybarracuda



----------


## Humbert

> Typical response but what else could you possibly offer? My version of the truth is incontrovertible and rather speaks for itself as indeed does your inability to deal with it.


Fixed that for you.

----------


## sabang

This alleged 'PR disaster' appears quite at odds with the fact that Obama's popularity has surged by an amazing 11% since the good news. That said, I expect it to come down a bit as the initial euphoria inevitably fades.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Here's some graphic ones for you.... http://www.calgarysun.com/2011/05/04...den-raid-house


Good post thanks for that...not so much graphic but they sure are ugly f*ckers!

Obviously...and so true to form...

*"The official, who wished to remain anonymous, sold the pictures to Reuters".*

----------


## Dan

> Resorting  to personal insults shows a personal and basic weakness also your  inability to accept any other peoples viewpoints. Have a great day you conceited tosser!


It would have been better if you'd got all that in one sentence but good work anyway.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> As usual languishing in the belief of your superior intellect


I don't think thegent has ever made a claim that he believes himself to be of superior intellect.

Surely nobody believing themself to be, or being of superior intellect would stick around here for a millisecond.

----------


## good2bhappy

> This alleged 'PR disaster' appears quite at odds with the fact that Obama's popularity has surged by an amazing 11% since the good news. That said, I expect it to come down a bit as the initial euphoria inevitably fades.


or they reverse their statements again

----------


## Thormaturge

> I'm waiting for Greenpeace to kick up about the Yanks throwing their trash into the ocean!


 They will probably praise the seals for feeding the sharks.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> It would have been better if you'd got all that in one sentence but good work anyway.


You're right but to be honest I was falling asleep while writing that post, but God he's boring me to say the least!  :rofl:

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> They will probably praise the seals for feeding the sharks.


Nice one!  :smiley laughing:

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> This alleged 'PR disaster' appears quite at odds with the fact that Obama's popularity has surged by an amazing 11% since the good news. That said, I expect it to come down a bit as the initial euphoria inevitably fades.


I said Abu Ghraib was a PR disaster.

You're misquoting.

Whether Osama's expiry turns out to be a PR success or failure is too soon to say. Militarily it was a success.

Of course, if one prefers to close the book on it and simply declare it an unconditional US triumph without being privy to the evidence of the trigger being pulled on an unarmed man or his respectful interrment, ...both of which are unshowable, then thats understandable - as thats exactly what the US Government requires.

They just want us to rejoice, and be thankful for that.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> They just want us to rejoice, and be thankful for that.


I have a question...have any of us missed OBL to date?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Originally Posted by The_Ghost_Of_The_Moog
> 
> They just want us to rejoice, and be thankful for that.
> 
> 
> I have a question...have any of us missed OBL to date?


I do, he never repaid the twenty quid I lent him.

----------


## Norton

> I do, he never repaid the twenty quid I lent him.


The bastard. Had 500 Euro in has pocket when they offed him. Put in a claim.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

*10 ways Barack Obama botched the aftermath of the masterful  operation to kill Osama bin Laden			*



10 ways Barack Obama botched the aftermath of the masterful operation to kill Osama bin Laden – Telegraph Blogs

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> I do, he never repaid the twenty quid I lent him.


NEVER lend an arab money or advice in fact don't lend them anything, can't be trusted you see?




> The bastard. Had 500 Euro in has pocket when they offed him. Put in a claim.


I think you meant to say "tight bastard" anyway I agree "moog" should get on to the executors of OBL's will, tell them he was a very close and trusted friend then put in his claim. 

I suggest "moog" forgets the twenty and makes it £200,000, we won't say anything here!

----------


## Butterfly

the dumb seppos still clipped their expansive special stealth hi-tech helicopter on a fucking wall !!! for all we know he killed himself by swallowing a cyanure pill, like all the bad guys tend to do

I mean FFS, he couldn't hear the noises after it took them 20min to clear the way to find him, the story doesn't add up

he was probably blue from the poisoning, that's why they can't release the pics, which would prove that they didn't kill him, so instead they dumped the body into sea

case solved,

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> case solved,


Well done "inspector clueless" as usual pure "pupa" logic at it's very best!  :rofl:

----------


## harrybarracuda

I am reminded of the aborted Iran rescue, after which the persians made a big show of bombing the shit out of the helicopters abandoned in the desert.

After which someone pointed out that the Iranian Air Force had a whole fleet of them grounded for want of spare parts.

 :rofl:

----------


## sabang

The world desperately needs a new "Bad Guy". 
How else can we get amerkins to join the army?
Qaddafi ain't worth the trouble- he won't be there long enuff.
Assange is under watch. Wot about that other wicked webmaster, DD?  :mid:

----------


## sabang

> he was probably blue from the poisoning


Well he'd still be dead as a result of the operation, we'd have his body, and a simple filter would remove the blue tinge. He'd have done us a favor actually- then photo's would be no ploblem. Unfortunately, his daughter gives a different account.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> The world desperately needs a new "Bad Guy". How else can we get amerkins to join the army? Qaddafi ain't worth the trouble- he won't be there long enuff. Assange is under watch. Wot about that other wicked webmaster, DD?


What about Drummond?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Unfortunately, his daughter gives a different account.


That's of little concern to "pupa" he never lets logic or detail curtail his pea brain logic!  :rofl:

----------


## MakingALife

> Basically MAL (#865) , you've got the US right wing absolutely seething over the fact that Obama has mounted a successful and daring operation, spiked in popularity, and achieved in two years what Bush could not in the eight years following 911. You've got some people actually disappointed that OBL was dispatched with such efficiency- no convenient 'bad guy' left now, no convenient thorn in Obama's side now. No 'weak President, libbie' left now either, no closet Muslim. No OBL left to blame the Arab democratic uprisings on- the Arab despots must be seething too. And of course you've got the the usual peanut gallery- waddya expect, it's the internet. They're disappointed at the lack of drama, it's all so anticlimatic. It's a game changer- more so on the US political front frankly, than in the 'War on Terror'.
> 
> Left are some questions- was it 'the right thing' to despatch rather than detain him, was it 'the right thing' to sleep him with the fishes rather than taking his vile corpse back to the US, or Gitmo or wherever. More the libby brigade here, and at least questions worth asking. It was the right thing, imho. No corpse, no trial, no shrine to make an object of martyrdom. Just ignominy, and anonymity. Underlying message- don't fuk with da Heat.
> 
> But you can't change one thing. Osama bin Laden is Dead! Yippeee!!!
> Nothing can bring back his victims, and the loss suffered by many others.
> But don't waste your time playing the sympathy card with me, or them.
> Well done to the planners and executors of the mission.
> Sympathy in the Muslim world is rather low on the ground too.


My post was not an attempt to play any sympathy card.  My post was done to make a point, against the many weak handed arguments critical of the US actions against Osama.  And place the event in the correct context.    You have done a good job in your post (above) to cover some of the bases with some  US political factions and their typical responses over Obama's success in delivering this most wanted fugitive to justice, which in Osama's case is death without mercy.

About the general questions you point towards in your post.... I agree 100% with the sentiment you voiced there.  It was the right thing to do.  All operational outcomes took the correct decision tree path,  right down to the decision to bury Osama at sea.  It leaves little tangible, and as such serves many purposes.

Seeing the new emerging sentiment from the administration not to post pictures, or release video footage of any of it...  It smacks of an extension of belief - the less detail supplied, the lower the response level from what remains of the ALQ.   This strategy gives ALQ little to rally around, even if this low disclosure policy evokes a lot of challenges from others.   The US Government remains free to post details later, or leak them if it becomes desirable to do so.   For the moment they appear to be playing this low disclosure card for best advantage, as well.     

Obama's decision to slap down DOD and take full control over any image or video release, clearly establishes his position in the pecking order.   This conscious choice serves to portray him (before the public) as leading and controlling all aspects of the operation.   He did not allow DOD to pre-empt his decision, and his blocking move and transition to a low disclosure policy are politically calculated choices on his part.

While I dislike the earlier PR bungles, with evolving or changing stories, and low transparency,  There is little that can be done except to wait for additional information and respect the judgment involved in handling the public aspects of information release.   This track would not have been my choice,  but clearly these decisions are not up to ordinary citizens to make, or even demand accountability over....  

What happened with Osama - Is not like a questionable police fatality, taking place on some urban block in America.  Where the local population have the right to demand accountability.     Jurisdiction is different, its patently extrajudicial . It took place in Pakistan, with operatives originally self sequestered in Afghanistan, a wasteland known only for its lucrative drug trade and the birthplace of terrorist training and radicalized ideology .   That context places this event a lot closer to the the wild west connotations many people see this event framed by.       

In my opinion, other staffers who released incorrect hastily delivered information, has become a significant PR mistake under cutting overall credibility.  Those mistakes are in the record books as well.  There is little that can change the incorrect disclosures. 

With future engagement planned for the identified ALQ leadership and operatives, thanks to the new intelligence from this raid...   A low release of information probably keeps the administrations hand stronger for what is yet to play out.    It allows the US and its anti-terrorist specialist teams to remain active against the threats,  rather that being forced into defensive posture.  

The tide has turned and what is left of ALQ leaders and operatives, is about to be gutted by the turn of this unfriendly intel card.  My guess will be a progressive finishing the job, begun after 9/11.  It will be used for best political gain, and a unification of American resolve, as they reshape ME politics in light of present trajectories in political turmoil there,  and from the sell out of many older regimes which will become clear from the same intel taken at Osamas place.   

Critical momentum is at hand for turning the tables, and you can rest assured it will be executed with the same kind of precision, low drama, and directness that went into Osama's raid.   

To think these options can be passed on or ignored, given the state of the ME, and Obama's weaker political hand going in the 2012 election (prior to this game changing event on 1 May)...  To think these options can be passed upon (by the current administration), in favor of some other egalitarian pursuit, is to see the world through some naive delusion.   The world is not rose garden, but its going to be very certain that ALQ will be getting the railroading of their life...  And its beginner in a way that they will not grasp or rally against.   In my book this boarders on taking good luck and turning it into a master stroke.

----------


## Humbert

*10 ways Barack Obama botched the aftermath of the masterful operation to kill Osama bin Laden 

*10 ways Barack Obama botched the aftermath of the masterful operation to kill Osama bin Laden – Telegraph Blogs

After glowing praise for the operation and its objectives the author goes on to nitpick and offer his own opinions of how it should have been handled. Big deal.

----------


## Dan

Well, that is kind of how newspapers - and actually the media generally - work; individuals give their opinions on events and you agree or disagree with them.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> *10 ways Barack Obama botched the aftermath of the masterful operation to kill Osama bin Laden 
> 
> *10 ways Barack Obama botched the aftermath of the masterful operation to kill Osama bin Laden  Telegraph Blogs
> 
> After glowing praise for the operation and its objectives the author goes on to nitpick and offer his own opinions of how it should have been handled. Big deal.


Hardly contradicting himself, though, is he?

Most of the points are quite valid.

If they'd just said up front we will not be releasing pictures, the issue probably would have been dead by now.

And the "human shield" nonsense was just juvenile and pathetic.

I think he makes some fair comment there.

----------


## Humbert

> Well, that is kind of how newspapers - and actually the media generally - work; individuals give their opinions on events and you agree or disagree with them.


And then regurgitated on Teakdoor as absolute, unrefutable truths delivered with sanctimonious certainty.

----------


## Butterfly

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> case solved,
> 
> 
> Well done "inspector clueless" as usual pure "pupa" logic at it's very best!


right wing nutter alert,

tell us TBR, tea party or birther ?

----------


## Dan

^^ You seem to be reading a lot into a link with no comment.

----------


## Butterfly

> Unfortunately, his daughter gives a different account.


right, because you really think she was independently interviewed after the event

for all we know she was also killed,

----------


## good2bhappy

11. The burial at sea after dieing on land
Questionable Islamic rights and the question of a Christian country denigrating the dead of Islam

----------


## Seekingasylum

> Originally Posted by Dan
> 
> It would have been better if you'd got all that in one sentence but good work anyway.
> 
> 
> You're right but to be honest I was falling asleep while writing that post,


Judging by the tenor of your contributions I should imagine your incipient narcolepsy is probably entering a chronic phase, although the gratuitous guffawing icon suggests a more curious complication. Are you one of those loudmouthed boors who laugh at their own feeble jokes so as to inform anyone foolish enough to fall into your company?

----------


## Butterfly

if we had those pics of a dead Osama Bin Laden, we could make a fortune selling the T-shirt on Sukhumvit and eBay

a business opportunity lost,

----------


## harrybarracuda

> if we had those pics of a dead Osama Bin Laden, we could make a fortune selling the T-shirt on Sukhumvit and eBay
> 
> a business opportunity lost,


I'm sure someone's already printing them using the faked photo.

----------


## DrAndy

> Resorting to personal insults shows a personal and basic weakness





> you conceited tosser


here is a nice poster who makes theGents look intelligent

----------


## good2bhappy

> for all we know she was also killed,


they are supposed to be in a Rawalpindi hospital
if true her story will come out

----------


## Mid

> if we had those pics of a dead Osama Bin Laden, we could make a fortune selling the T-shirt on Sukhumvit and eBay



thepeoplesvoice.org

knock yourself out .

----------


## DrAndy

> Are you one of those loudmouthed boors who laugh at their own feeble jokes so as to inform anyone foolish enough to fall into your company?


must be

----------


## Seekingasylum

> Originally Posted by Dan
> 
> 
> Well, that is kind of how newspapers - and actually the media generally - work; individuals give their opinions on events and you agree or disagree with them.
> 
> 
> And then regurgitated on Teakdoor as absolute, unrefutable truths delivered with sanctimonious certainty.


Dubya would have been proud of that sentence. Well done.

----------


## Humbert

> Originally Posted by Humbert
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Dan
> ...


Better than your pompous and tortured writing style.

----------


## Norton

> The world desperately needs a new "Bad Guy".


*
Top Secret Dispatch. This message will self destruct in five minutes via mod action.*

A new front runner is emerging.




> the dumb seppos still clipped their expansive  special stealth hi-tech helicopter on a fucking wall !!!





> it's clear that his body must have been in advance decomposition to throw him to the fish





> it looks like they shot a dead man





> of  course it was, it lead to an illegal invasion and the killing of  thousands more Americans and Iraqi civilians





> it  was very impressive and spectacular though, it was basically a "shock  and awe" campaign by the terrorists and it worked beautifully





> dumb Americans





> Americans have killed far more people overseas with their own terrorist organization





> Europeans acknowledged after 911 that the Americans fully deserved it





> never  saw non-Americans disagree with the idea that America had it coming for  a long time, and it was to be expected.





> got to give it to AQ, it was very impressive





> I am denying the story happened as we are told,





> simply quite surprised by the stupidity of the American public and Obama





> you were right about Obama, he might be a fraud after all


Communications may be a problem if the evil one sees a bunch of studly  Seals. "Drop your weapon and raise your arms" could be interpreted as  "drop your pants and raise your weapon" by the evil one.  Therefore,  Sarkozy who has a few personal scores to settle with the evil one has  agreed Commandement des Opérations Spéciales will take the lead. 

 Intelligence sources have a firm lead on his location. On Nut Beer Garden. French Air Force will take out his tank escort. The rest should be easy. Even for the French.

----------


## Mid

JHC Norts that's an OD .   :Sad:

----------


## DrAndy

> Originally Posted by thegent
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Humbert
> ...


 
I think theGents is a Humbert double nik, there was an almost uncanny resembalnce

----------


## koman

*LIGHTS OUT IN PAKISTAN*

There I was, asleep in bed
the wives locked up, out in the shed
then I awoke; what did I see
a bunch of Seals surrounding me

I had to wipe my eyes and stare
now what are you guys doing there
are Seals not creatures of the strand
they don't belong in Pakistan

We've come for you, the big one said
Obama sent us for your head
another raised his MP5
not really much of a surprise

The next thing that I heard was bang
the lights went out,.... and then they sang...
"America the beautiful."...land that we love....da de da da de da da...........
Last time I piss these people off...I hate that fucking song....

----------


## harrybarracuda

A fascinating read for Osama followers.

http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/183/m183p139.pdf

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

The Archbishop of Canterbury is uncomfortable about this killing.

We don't know how God feels about it, though the latter is supposed to be on the side of the US of A, and he's always being asked to bless the place.

----------


## dirtydog

> We don't know how God feels about it,


Just get Bush to ask him, he's friends with him aint he?

----------


## Norton

> Just get Bush to ask him, he's friends with him aint he?


Bush was asked if he received advice from his father former President Bush. His response, "I seek advice from a higher authority" was thought to be a reference to god. It can now be revealed he was referring to Dick Chaney.

----------


## MakingALife

> *10 ways Barack Obama botched the aftermath of the masterful operation to kill Osama bin Laden 
> 
> *10 ways Barack Obama botched the aftermath of the masterful operation to kill Osama bin Laden  Telegraph Blogs
> 
> After glowing praise for the operation and its objectives the author goes on to nitpick and offer his own opinions of how it should have been handled. Big deal.


Its almost as if his editors said to that Articles Author....  give me 10 points and 1000 words on key things Obama mishandled.   

A smearing article, with one reporters point of view.   It was amateurish and opinionated at best. Nice try, mostly posture, with little understanding of substance behind actions / motivations.   It's written from point of view that is very different than the way a PR group and geopolitical strategists would view the same events.    He article is opinionated fluff at best.   
Reviewing his opinion on his 10 points...

1. *Three days to sort out releasing Osamas images...*  This seems to have been a decision that could have been made, well in advance of the strike... They were aware of the evidence that would be gathered if the mission was successful.  This delay and non disclosure likely is not random, It supports an objective and is probably scripted.  Obama's action is designed to give the world the impression that he takes their sensitives into account.  Theres a psych-op associated with this delayed choice and decision not to disclose.   Ít as well removes tangibles for ALQ to rally around. All leaders at this level deal several chess moves ahead on their strategy board.   This delay was not a mistake - Its calculated.    The reporter here gets this badly wrong to think nobody knew in advance how to handle this question.   The delay and action response was scripted.

*2 .  To say that bin Laden was armed and hiding behind a wife being used as a human shield was an unforgivable embellishment.*   Its not unforgivable embellishment (maybe to a journalist's point of view).  I believe this embellished story was added to paint OBL in a very bad posture.  Its a cheap shot, easy to make, easy to correct later.  But the first impressions and descriptions always resonate.  The impression cast of aura of cowardliness on OBL part,  strikes to many of their associations  to terrorism as  inherently cowardice acts.   Cementing such an image of OBL, to what the public holds in belief about the nature of terrorism was achieved by this early mis-statement.  Such an image will remain there in the minds of many, even after the correction.  The administration pre-emptively justified this embellishment by stating the information was hastily prepared, therefore not expected to be fully accurate.   Getting them off the hook.    Very clever, and a good pot shot at Obama, even after killing him.  Fuck the terrorist cause and any internal motivations their militants may grasp at.    They deserve to be discredited at every level and every opportunity.    That is the basis of this mis-statement.  The reporter claims this was a mistake,  I believe it was very intentional on the administrations part.   

3.* It was a kill mission and no one should have been afraid to admit that   * Amazing grasp of the obvious, however - The correct posture was taken by the administration, to reduce motivation for ALQ in mustering response.  Perhaps he may have come put alive, if the found him in a hospital bed unable to resist,  but that wasn't the case.  Osama appeared functional and capable of resistance - therefore a dead man under the raid circumstances.   He deserved nothing better.   This sentiment assigned to this raid wasn't a mistake, It was the correct posture to assume.   So I think this report is again all wet.

*4.  Too much information was given out too quickly much of it was wrong.*   Its a pretty big prize to deliver to the world, so perhaps they overdid it a bit.   I agree with the author on this one. 
*
5. Obama tried to claim too much credit.   * I dont buy that, I read the speech transcript.  He did a good job to explain his decision making to the American public.  Such commentary was worthy to share, because it undermined a careful long term strategy was in play.  A explanation of such a methodology sends a clear message to the rest of the world as well.  Obamas message in that area was not overly done, it was purposefully done.   I see no mistake here, so the Articles author is all wet on this one as well. 

*6. Proof of death was needed * I agree it had a lot of value here,  Its not for us to decide.  Obama plays a careful posture here to claim he is looking out for peoples sensibilities, when in fact he wants to reduce ALQ response and not disclose US Intel and field level capabilities.  Its spin, with a distinct purpose behind it.   I do agree with the Author some proof ought to be furnished,  In time it will come out.  For now not releasing visual proof of OBL's death is a gambit executed with purpose.

*7.  The mission should have been a "Capture" one.*  BS - that creates more problems than it solves, Osama doesnt deserve anything more than he got from this deal.  I disagree with the author here.  Obama in custody would serve one purpose - to be interrogated for maximum intelligence disclosure.   Perhaps this is ongoing now,  and another burial at sea will follow in a couple of months.  It seems unlikely considering the many pronouncements made of his death and concrete evidence (even if not yet disclosed).   If such a wrinkle as this is taking place, I could care less - obtain what ever intel they can from him and kill him when they are done.  Obama sealed his fate with his choices and actions.  He was a dead man after acknowledging his planning for the many successful ALQ terrorist plots he took credit for. 

*8.  Obama's rhetoric about Americas empowerment to achieve any outcome, and control the unpleasant pictures.  * Well its taken a decade to find one man. Despite spending billions, on the surface that's pretty weak.  Its an awful performance by any standard.    So the obvious choice is to take a different tack and spin it all as empowerment and manifested destiny.  It comes off much more positive.   Sure its spin control.   Coming off as the greatest of achievements, and saving the world from horrific photos - Obama plays a masterful PR card here.   Its not a mistake in handling as this Author claims it to be.  Far from that.  *

9. Triggering a torture discussion was an avoidable goal.*   Intel was a key role here,  Torture and interrogation were key to that development.  No administration can carry a complete discussion without raising this topic.   Its a mistake for this reporter to say it could have been avoided.  It was valuable for America and the world to hear and recognize the role intelligence played in this manhunt.   It sends a clear message of diligence and determination on the part of America to pursue public enemies.   A good message to send in what appears to be the beginning of many lawless times ahead.   Its not a mistake to discuss intelligence involved here with OBL.  It supports the actions of the administration in their pressing of this war on terror.  Not a mistake as the articles author frames it.

*10. The muddle over Pakistan.*   Pakistan with very high probability was paid well by Osama for his domain.  It will come out eventually from the intel scored.  Bin Ladens funding network will come out of this intel, chasing the money will make his political connections clear.    The administration did well not so shield Pakistan, they deserve to take heat for not turning over or informing the US about this secretive compound and unusual behaviors.   For the reporter to say it was avoidable is also naive.  The US will not protect an allay who shops them out in such a fashion.   The cost savings to WAR ON TERROR would have been greatly reduces if OBL were turned over 5 or 6 years ago.  Pakistan will pay a price for this action, if intel points clearly to official ties to Pakistan by Osama for providing him refuge.    Anyone who know's how shithole countries operate will quickly recognize a connection between OBL and Pakistan existed right up to this event. 

This articles author, seems to want to shoe horn Obama and his administration to live and work in a bubble ignoring the real world way the world processes and selects information.  Finding only 2 of the 10 Items from the author as credible is a pretty big divergence and suggests the author holds fantasy beliefs about how the world works.   

The article does little service to the understanding the complexities needed in reporting to the world such a game changer in what went down.

To those who dont recognize this event to be a game changer - My advice is keep you eyes open as it will be unfolding.   Geopolitical tides are turning in the ME and the terrorist mop up is taking shape as this is written.  Political capital in the US has been reshuffled as well, with momentum building for Obama going into 2012.  Obama will be scoring more ALQ successes in the months ahead and the run up to the election.  He will win the war on terror.  The only thing the GOP can play at this point is to refuse to expand the US Debt Ceiling and tie up budget progress till a debt default takes place.  Placing the economic recovery and USD currency value into deep question.  Attempting to tag the democrats with lack of compromise.   This is a risky scorched earth policy to play around with, and it remains to be seen how these events will play out.   For all these reasons - the raid and killing of OBL has become a game changer...

It effects US Politics, World Politics, and a significant impact to terrorism world wide - Its a triple header event.

----------


## OhOh

> The Archbishop of Canterbury is uncomfortable about this killing.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...lled-live.html

_"12.20 The Archbishop of Canterbury has said the killing of Osama bin Laden while he was not armed has left him with "a very uncomfortable feeling". In an unusual comment, Dr Rowan Williams said:
I think the killing of an unarmed man is always going to leave a very uncomfortable feeling because it doesn't look as if justice is seen to be done. In those circumstances I think it's also true that the different versions of events that have emerged in recent days have not done a great deal to help. I don't know the full details any more than anyone else does. But I do believe that in such circumstances when we are faced with someone who was manifestly a war criminal in terms of the atrocities inflicted it is important that justice is seen to be served."

We don't know how God feels about it, though the latter is supposed to be on the side of the US of A, and he's always being asked to bless the place._

It appears that a UK cleric, the archbishop of Canterbury, disagrees with two hats willy. 

He has stated that the extra-judicial killing carried out on Bin laden by the "wild west" US government has no legal or moral justification. The civilised world demands that "justice is seen" to be done. 

I presume with that statement he is implying that a legally constituted court appearance be created and a verdict be decided by a group of citizens. The verdict would then be carried out by reference to a judge and a defined scale of "punishment"

The "Bullingdon Bullies", Obama and Clinton are straying from the text even with the UK clergy now. What will the religious Americans make of this?
__________________
A tray full of money is not worth a mind full of knowledge.

----------


## mikediver

To those that return to their vomit when saying that "if only the US would deal with the honest objections the Muslim world has with US foreign policy the terrorists would go away", BS!  What is the stated and deeply held objective of the OBLs of the world?  To wipe out, or totally subjugate, anyone that does not follow their particular brand of Islam.  They hate the US not because of it's policies, but because the US is the biggest roadblock in their road to world domination.  This is not a matter of my opinion.  It is in all their manifestos.  

So if you want the US to just stand aside, what are you going to do to protect yourself from their taking over your corner of the world?  By the way, they are opposed to most of the Muslim governments of the world too.  85% of the victims of Al Quida have been muslims.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

^Get over yourself Captain America. Nobody gives a shit about your fading empire or the fanatical muslims' and OBL (when did we start calling him that anyway? Is that kinda like OBJ?).

Your country ain't that special - if it was pal, we'd all be living there - not just the Mexicans. It hurts, I know, but it's as true as tomorrow's sunrise. Get used to it because it's not going to get any better anytime soon. Your country is trying to distract you from the terminal cancer that is your consumer "me" society. If you don't believe me turn you TV back on and watch some American Idol or Fight Night blood sports. Immerse yourself in the spectacle.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> To those that return to their vomit when saying that "if only the US would deal with the honest objections the Muslim world has with US foreign policy the terrorists would go away", BS!


Well, why not just give it a try anyway? Have a decent, adult foreign policy that perceives other peoples as being more than just 1) providers of resources, 2) potential retail markets, or 3) enemies of freedom (if they don't fall into the first two categories).

Not to mollify Muslims, but simply because its the kind of foreign policy that a grown-up country should conduct.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

*Osama Bin Laden 'death film' goes viral*

BBC Newsbeat by Dan Whitworth

Online spammers using fake videos and photos of Osama Bin Laden's death have seen their phishing scam go viral.

Since the al-Qaeda leader was shot and killed by American special forces there's been speculation about exactly how he died.

This has meant the scam has quickly spread around the world, often through email and Facebook accounts.

In America the FBI has already warned internet users about the dangers of these scams.

Agents says viruses which are downloaded are often programmed to steal personal information like email addresses, passwords and dates of birth.
'Identity Theft' 

In a different type of scam people are also being tricked into handing over their personal details.

Another, known as clickjacking, works when people click on a fake video link and unwittingly give spammers access to their accounts.

Rik Ferguson is director of security research at Trend Micro and told Newsbeat: "The ultimate outcome for a victim is certainly going to be identity theft.
"That can have serious financial implications short term, longer term if your identity is sold on then it could affect your credit rating."

It's not the first time news events have given hackers the opportunity to spread malware attacks around the world.

Similar campaigns were launched to coincide with the Royal Wedding, the World Cup and Japanese Tsunami.

Ferguson added: "The fact that this is related to Osama Bin Laden is almost academic.

"Whenever anything newsworthy happens, anything at all, that is taken advantage of by criminals in order to make their attack more interesting, more credible."

----------


## Tom Sawyer

^
I'm sure the Subject heading of the email is Earnest Request for Help By Osama's Daughter. 

First sentence: 

Dearest, This may come as a total surprise and shock to your good self, but I as am a god fearing woman (not Nigerian - but writing like one) can tell you are someone to be trusted in this good light of the Lord's day

My father..Osama bin Laden or OBL as we now all know..left 54 million US dollars to me but....

----------


## Butterfly

any update on the world biggest PR stunt ?

----------


## Butterfly

looks like Pakistan wasn't warned after all  :mid: 




> Pakistan Rejects U.S. Criticism 
> A senior Pakistan official warned the U.S. would face "disastrous consequences" if it carried out any more unilateral raids similar to the one that killed Osama bin Laden.

----------


## Dan

According to the World Service - despite the initial tales of brave warriors battling through a hail of bullets - only one person actually shot at the two-dozen American soldiers, who then shot a bunch of people in response.

----------


## Butterfly

> only one person actually shot at the two-dozen American soldiers, who then shot a bunch of people in response.


typical response from insecure US service personnel, shoot first, ask questions later

looks like Pakistan is not giving them access for interrogation to the surviving children and women in the compound

----------


## Dan

A bit of a tangent but Crooked Timber this morning had this  (old) video:

YouTube - The Power of Nightmares Part 3 - The Shadows in the Cave

of Rumsfeld claiming that al-Qaeda had many of these in Tora Bora. 



which, as someone pointed out, has a striking resemblance to this:

----------


## Seekingasylum

Only what seems to be a more complete version of the " truth ". 

Transpires the assassination team, which attacked in two groups, took incoming fire from just one person shooting from the guest house adjacent to where Laden's family were sleeping. The group targeting Laden came under no fire.  

The helicopter was evidently pranged through pilot error.

Attempts to add some sort of legality to the murder, that Laden was a combatant in a declared war, seem to floundering ( no surprise there since there is no "war" within any definition of international law ) not least because Laden was indicted in the US in 1998 and therefore was a fugitive within the criminal justice system.

But hey ho, who cares about law. If Uncle Sam wants to kill anyone he don't much like then go ahead provided of course it is with the will of the people which of course makes everything alright. 

Unbelievable really.

----------


## Wally Dorian Raffles

i don't blame the yanks for not warning pakistan at all.

liars and cheats can't be trusted.

end of story..

----------


## Butterfly

> Unbelievable really


it is, isn't it ? most non-US citizens will understand the double standard, but the majority of the American public can't put 2+2 together so it will fly over their head completely

and then they wonder why 911 happens and they become themselves collateral damage

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by mikediver
> 
> 
> To those that return to their vomit when saying that "if only the US would deal with the honest objections the Muslim world has with US foreign policy the terrorists would go away", BS!
> 
> 
> Well, why not just give it a try anyway? Have a decent, adult foreign policy that perceives other peoples as being more than just 1) providers of resources, 2) potential retail markets, or 3) enemies of freedom (if they don't fall into the first two categories).
> 
> Not to mollify Muslims, but simply because its the kind of foreign policy that a grown-up country should conduct.


What foreign policy does the US have that is specific to Muslims?  Foreign policy is not a static entity. It changes almost daily depending on what is going on in the world.   The US has a foreign policy towards Canada--their next door neighbor.
Canada is a huge supplier or resources to the US. It is also a valuable retail market-considering the number of big box US retail outfits that operate there.

Disputes are common between these two countries; mostly over trade issues.
When disputes arise they sit down and hammer out a deal and then get on with it.
Once in a while they will take their dispute to the WTO and each side agrees to abide by the findings.

On matters of foreign policy there is sometimes disputes too.  They agree to disagree and each does what it believes is in its own interests. The US does not
launch attacks against Canada because they disagree on foreign policy...even important foreign policy.  

Canada has not launched a single terrorist attack against the US even when the disputes are quite contentious.  Canada even has a significant Muslim population, who for the most part integrate quite well and concern themselves with earning a living instead of finding reasons to hate Americans. They even run for public office and get elected. 

  Cross border trade and commerce constitutes the largest trading relationship in the world.  It is mutually beneficial.  They even visit each others countries in large numbers and nobody gets kidnapped, beheaded or anything.   It can be done.  For two hundred years these two countries had an 8000km undefended border.  The longest by far in the world.  There was no need to defend it from the dastardly Americans because they paid for everything they took.   They did steal a lot of good hockey players though... :mid: 

I think the difference for America is that Canada (even though it can be a pain in the ass at times) is not run by fanatics; religious or otherwise.  Canada is a country that you can negotiate with and they generally follow the rules of civilized conduct.  That does make a difference when you are setting out your foreign policy.

----------


## Dan

> I think the difference for America is that Canada (even though it can be a pain in the ass at times) is not run by fanatics.


Actually, it is but they're right-wing fanatics who sell oil to the Americans and who share many of their ideological prejudices so it's not really discussed but the obvious difference is that the Canadians haven't been dispossessed of their land and the Americans aren't arming and supporting those who dispossessed them and imposed instead an apartheid regime. Nor did America impose and maintain a mediaeval siege on Canada leading to the deaths of half a million Canadian children, destroying in the process its previously extremely good educational and health infrastructure. But I don't pay as close attention as I should to world news so perhaps I missed something.

----------


## bobo746

Proof of bin ladens burial at sea

----------


## koman

> I think the difference for America is that Canada (even though it can be a pain in the ass at times) is not run by fanatics.
> 			
> 		
> 
> Actually, it is but they're right-wing fanatics who sell oil to the Americans and who share many of their ideological prejudices so it's not really discussed but the obvious difference is that the Canadians haven't been dispossessed of their land and the Americans aren't arming and supporting those who dispossessed them and imposed instead an apartheid regime. Nor did America impose and maintain a mediaeval siege on Canada leading to the deaths of half a million Canadian children, destroying in the process its previously extremely good educational and health infrastructure. But I don't pay as close attention as I should to world news so perhaps I missed something.


That has to be be biggest load of horseshit posted on this entire forum in a while.
What the fuck are you talking about. Can you find Canada on a map???

----------


## Dan

> That has to be be biggest load of horseshit posted on this entire forum in a while. What the fuck are you talking about. Can you find Canada on a map???


Which bit are you confused by? Canada's right-wing government and their war on science or what the Americans haven't done to them?

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> That has to be be biggest load of horseshit posted on this entire forum in a while. What the fuck are you talking about. Can you find Canada on a map???
> 
> 
> Which bit are you confused by? Canada's right-wing government and their war on science or what the Americans haven't done to them?


 What should we do to them?

Bummer Eh?

----------


## Butterfly

> Can you find Canada on a map???


can you ?

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> Can you find Canada on a map???
> 
> 
> can you ?


Here you go WANKER!

----------


## Seekingasylum

Americans aren't comfortable with paradoxes, ambiguities or practically anything that isn't monochrome. 
Charitable folk like to think of them as nice, plain, hospitable and straight talking but in reality they are mostly just a little bit too stupid to act otherwise.
When in doubt, wrap yourself in the flag, grab a bible and ram another clip into the M16 and let's git some is generally about the level whether the enemy be commie bastards, slant eyed gooks or Jihadist ragheads. 
I wonder who will be next.

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> That has to be be biggest load of horseshit posted on this entire forum in a while. What the fuck are you talking about. Can you find Canada on a map???
> 
> 
> Which bit are you confused by? Canada's right-wing government and their war on science or what the Americans haven't done to them?


Confusing????    I try to make a valid point about how/why America structures it's foreign policy using Canada as an example of a country that enjoys a good and well balanced relationship with the US.   You don't  ever bother responding to any post in its full context do you?   

To suggest that Canada is governed by "fanatics" is just so fucking ludicrous that it hardly deserves a response, but what the hell, this is TD...

I lived in Canada for over 30 years....have known several MP's quite well,  including one who served as Prime Minister for a while.   There is nothing fanatical about any of them and anyone who shows the slightest sign of being a fanatic or who holds extreme views does get very far in politics there. 

 The" right wing" government has been in a "minority" parliament for years and has in fact just won it's first majority a few days ago.   There are a great many countries that enjoy good and well balanced relationships with the US....and there are quite a few that don't,  for all kinds of reasons that could be discussed intelligently, but not with spiteful, hateful zealots.....that is the biggest part of the problem.

----------


## Butterfly

> To suggest that Canada is governed by "fanatics" is just so fucking ludicrous that it hardly deserves a response,


oh oh someone forgot to put their clue hat  :rofl:

----------


## Boon Mee

> I wonder who will be next.


Mebe them toffs like yerself who believe they are 'better people' for having a public school education and use multi-syllable words on internet forums? :mid:

----------


## Dan

^^^ I made - I thought but for your benefit in future I'll try to make things simpler - a perfectly clear post about why comparing America's relations with Canada was completely beside the point as a response to Moog's post (which yours was). As for the fanatics part, the Canadian conservatives are ideologues who seem determined to stand against perfectly well-established science (and who are quite happy to destroy vast parts of their country in the process.) From whatever fringe it is that you stand on (and it's clearly one that's out beyond the asteroid belt), they may look like harmless centrists but they're not, though that's not really what this thread is about so I'm not particularly keen on pursuing it further.

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> To suggest that Canada is governed by "fanatics" is just so fucking ludicrous that it hardly deserves a response,
> 
> 
> oh oh someone forgot to put their clue hat



You really should try sniffing a better quality glue butters... :Smile:

----------


## koman

> ^^^ I made - I thought but for your benefit in future I'll try to make things simpler - a perfectly clear post about why comparing America's relations with Canada was completely beside the point as a response to Moog's post (which yours was). As for the fanatics part, the Canadian conservatives are ideologues who seem determined to stand against perfectly well-established science (and who are quite happy to destroy vast parts of their country in the process.) From whatever fringe it is that you stand on (and it's clearly one that's out beyond the asteroid belt), *they may look like harmless centrists but they're not,* though that's not really what this thread is about so I'm not particularly keen on pursuing it further.


I think for you dear Dan, anyone who is not an extreme left, anti-western, anti capitalist, anti-American, tree hugging, lunatic would be considered "right wing"
and a danger to all life on the planet. (beyond the asteroid belt even)   Never mind, you are correct in that we are drifting off topic...so let's get back to the poor terrorists and all the terrible things the big bad Yankees do to them.... :Smile:

----------


## Carrabow

> Americans aren't comfortable with paradoxes, ambiguities or practically anything that isn't monochrome. 
> Charitable folk like to think of them as nice, plain, hospitable and straight talking but in reality they are mostly just a little bit too stupid to act otherwise.
> When in doubt, wrap yourself in the flag, grab a bible and ram another clip into the M16 and let's git some is generally about the level whether the enemy be commie bastards, slant eyed gooks or Jihadist ragheads. 
> I wonder who will be next.


 You forgot to mention that we have no issues giving Military assistance to countries in need, of course the UK seems to have short term memory loss when it comes to topics of this nature.

A Nations pride is built on its ablity to overcome hardship and others who would oppress them (take a guess). Unlike other Nations in the world we have the ability to forgive as well but that takes cooperation from both sides and is not a one way street. Call us what you like and you are welcome to your opinion. But is getting to be old hat. Do we have issues now in this day and age? Sure, just give us a little time and the old Yanky resolve will see through it with the correct LEADERSHIP. But slags like you do not want that to happen. 

I fancy the thought of these 2 in office and far a Congress is concerned what do they do?

Colin PowellConnie RiceNow how can that be racist?

----------


## Seekingasylum

Rather think you are wasting your time, Dan.

I don't think he twigs the references to Iraq and, if he did, extrapolating them to Canada is possibly a parallel too far ( a northern parallel too far, har,har ).

They have a blind spot which I think my earlier post signals. Perhaps it's a lack of empathy that blinkers them although being a nation of immigrants one would have thought they would be more sensitised to the sufferings of others. You see, a paradox.

----------


## Seekingasylum

> A Nations pride is built on its ablity to overcome hardship and others who would oppress them


 Since you seem to value these ethics why do you think your country has failed to respect them in others?

----------


## machangezi

Glad he's gone.

----------


## koman

> Rather think you are wasting your time, Dan.
> 
> I don't think he twigs the references to Iraq and, if he did, extrapolating them to Canada is possibly a parallel too far ( a northern parallel too far, har,har ).
> 
> They have a blind spot which I think my earlier post signals. Perhaps it's a lack of empathy that blinkers them although being a nation of immigrants one would have thought they would be more sensitised to the sufferings of others. You see, a paradox.


No of course not, how could I ever figure out _anything_ that subtle.....it takes real fucking intellectuals like you and Dan to see things like that.  Everyone that disagrees with your particular fucked up distorted view of everything is either; stupid, crazy, blind, sheep,  wearing a tin hat....blah blah blah....

----------


## Seekingasylum

But Koman, the world isn't a simple place and trying to reduce things to terms a child might find comprehensible won't make it so.
Killing an old man of no consequence in his bed isn't a victory, it was simply an act of vengeance that has no purpose or significance likely to make the world any simpler for you and your ilk to understand. In truth, it places even more pressure upon Pakistan and that, my friend, is not a good thing for Uncle Sam or any of us for that matter.

----------


## sabang

> I wonder who will be next.


Limey's

----------


## Humbert

> Originally Posted by thegent
> 
> 
> Rather think you are wasting your time, Dan.
> 
> I don't think he twigs the references to Iraq and, if he did, extrapolating them to Canada is possibly a parallel too far ( a northern parallel too far, har,har ).
> 
> They have a blind spot which I think my earlier post signals. Perhaps it's a lack of empathy that blinkers them although being a nation of immigrants one would have thought they would be more sensitised to the sufferings of others. You see, a paradox.
> 
> ...


It really makes me wonder what kind of grip on reality this guy has? Who would be stupid enough to create the internet persona of a narcissistic, upper class, effete, British snob? Certainly this person doesn't exist except in some kind of parananoid fantasy world.
Why waste your time debating with someone who's every post is based upon insults, sterotyping and fallacies.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> What the fuck are you talking about. Can you find Canada on a map???


Why ask him? Most 'Merikens can't find their own fucking country on a map - never mind Canada

----------


## HermantheGerman

> Originally Posted by The Bold Rodney
> 
> 
>  
> Do you really believe they're capable of discussing "justice and democracy" let alone understanding it? Don't make me laugh! 
> 
> 
> 
> They are probably as capable as you but, admittedly, that isn't saying much.
> ...


If you can show me one islamic country where "E Pluribus Unum" works, we can continue the discussion. Until then...yes, some mussie will have to be excluded.

----------


## Anfield Road

What a tragic thread...bob stfu and get back to teaching~~twat

----------


## Seekingasylum

> Why waste your time debating with someone who's every post is based upon insults, sterotyping and fallacies.


Reach for that M16 pardner, it's what your people normally do when faced with an argument you don't like.

Incidentally, that should be _" whose_ " and not _" who's"._

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> What a tragic thread...bob stfu and get back to teaching~~twat


Who's bob?

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by Carrabow
> 
> 
>  
> 
> A Nations pride is built on its ablity to overcome hardship and others who would oppress them 
> 
> 
>  Since you seem to value these ethics why do you think your country has failed to respect them in others?


Seems your statement is opinionated, but I am sure you find some sort of reply. 

Oh... by the way, how many Countries have you colonized and made quite mess of? When India cut the umbilical cord they started rolling and now they are fairing quite well; kinda like what we did. 

Dont bring up Iraq until you have given them 30+ years to figure it out, they been around 5000 and still are behind the power curve.

----------


## HermantheGerman

> the dumb seppos still clipped their expansive special stealth hi-tech helicopter on a fucking wall !!! for all we know he killed himself by swallowing a cyanure pill, like all the bad guys tend to do
> 
> I mean FFS, he couldn't hear the noises after it took them 20min to clear the way to find him, the story doesn't add up
> 
> he was probably blue from the poisoning, that's why they can't release the pics, which would prove that they didn't kill him, so instead they dumped the body into sea
> 
> case solved,


Wrong ! Islamic law does not allow you to take a short cut and swallow a funny blue pill in order to get to Soi Jihad.

Unless you take at least 10 infidels with you.

----------


## Butterfly

I don't understand the American apologists here,

why can't they just admit that they are nasty fuckers like the rest of us ?

then we can welcome them in our little reserve club of murderous imperialists

quite ridiculous, if you are going to act like an empire, why not just say so instead of twisting facts and logic and looking like complete fools

Americans want respect from the rest of the world and the Islamist ? frankly they are not getting any now because they look and act like retards. Start admitting that you are a violent nation of invading nutters thirsty for oil and revenue, and then see how the world will respect you  :Razz:

----------


## sabang



----------


## koman

> But Koman, the world isn't a simple place and trying to reduce things to terms a child might find comprehensible won't make it so.
> Killing an old man of no consequence in his bed isn't a victory, it was simply an act of vengeance that has no purpose or significance likely to make the world any simpler for you and your ilk to understand. In truth, it places even more pressure upon Pakistan and that, my friend, is not a good thing for Uncle Sam or any of us for that matter.


I agree that killing "an old man in his bed" in itself is not really a victory in the usual sense. It is however symbolic, and it resonates with a great many people.  When the "old man" inspired his minions to go out and slaughter thousands of people in US embassies, the WTC, USS Cole etc etc....those were "symbolic" too....or do you consider those events to be real "victories"     A few posters here insist on repeating that the world is not a "simple place"...as if the rest of us don't know that.  (I say this knowing that you and some others are fully convinced that the whole thing was just a big CIA plot.. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): )

The fact that you and some others think  that snuffing OBL was "wrong" as opposed to "right" is being pretty simplistic....but it's not a simple world, is it??

As for pressure on Pakistan....I personally don't give a shit how much pressure is put on the back stabbing, double dealing slime bags, and if the Taliban or any other lunatic Islamic group managed to take control........there's about a billion folks just to the south of them that would just love an excuse to "pressure" them...
Cleaning out that sewer would be good for all of us quite frankly....and no it's not a simple world;  just so you know I know.

I would love to see the US pull out of the whole region..... just .sit back and wait for sewer to get cleaned out. In due course we might actually be able to deal with them again on some reasonable level.

----------


## Butterfly

> It is however symbolic,


it's when a war is reduced to a symbol than the real war is lost,

America is fucked !!! meet the new boss, China, same as the old boss

----------


## HermantheGerman

> Proof of bin ladens burial at sea



Best proof I seen so far. Good work Bobo

----------


## Carrabow

> But Koman, the world isn't a simple place and trying to reduce things to terms a child might find comprehensible won't make it so.
> Killing an old man of no consequence in his bed isn't a victory, it was simply an act of vengeance that has no purpose or significance likely to make the world any simpler for you and your ilk to understand. In truth, it places even more pressure upon Pakistan and that, my friend, is not a good thing for Uncle Sam or any of us for that matter.


 You are delusional and wrong, we denied him several things to include a proper burial. Now all his cronies are running scared 'cause if we can get the big guy the rest are easy prey. 

 If your family would have been affected by this maniac you would hold a different posture. Put yourself in their shoes just for one minute. You cant...your life has been too pleasant. 

Do you realize how much blood over the centuries has been spilled for your way of life in your country. Go preach to someone else that wants to listen.

----------


## Butterfly

> I would love to see the US pull out of the whole region


sadly it's not going to happen, sheep

they need your support (politically and financially) to steal the resources of that region

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> 
>  
> What the fuck are you talking about. Can you find Canada on a map???
> 
> 
> Why ask him? Most 'Merikens can't find their own fucking country on a map - never mind Canada


Why do you automatically assume that anyone who is not spitting out anti-American bullshit has to be "Merikin"?   I lived half my life in Canada...know the place very well and I'm pretty good with maps too...   On top of that....out of the top 50 rated universities in the world; 46 of them are in the US and Canada....and the US has by far the most Nobel Prize winners  of any country in the  world....nobody else comes close... probably 90% of the technology you take for granted in your everyday life was developed by Merikins.....yea stupid Merikins...

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> As for pressure on Pakistan....I personally don't give a shit how much pressure is put on the back stabbing, double dealing slime bags, and if the Taliban or any other lunatic Islamic group managed to take control........there's about a billion folks just to the south of them that would just love an excuse to "pressure" them...


Not easy being Pakistan though is it. 

-If you don't do as the USA says,..... = in the axis of evil.
-If you take sides on the basis of Islamic religious affiliation = you're accused of supporting terrorism.

What can Pakistan do, except do as its told by the USA, whilst try to keep its other constituencies from going bananas.

And that leaves aside their other thorny issue of India.

----------


## HermantheGerman

> I don't understand the American apologists here,
> 
> why can't they just admit that they are nasty fuckers like the rest of us ?
> 
> then we can welcome them in our little reserve club of murderous imperialists
> 
> quite ridiculous, if you are going to act like an empire, why not just say so instead of twisting facts and logic and looking like complete fools
> 
> Americans want respect from the rest of the world and the Islamist ? frankly they are not getting any now because they look and act like retards. Start admitting that you are a violent nation of invading nutters thirsty for oil and revenue, and then see how the world will respect you





Hey Butty, you seem to be involved in a bit of stock market and economics. Is this not how YOUR world works. 




> Start admitting that you are violent, invading nutters,  thirsty for oil and revenue, and then see how the world works


Don't point your finger too far...because like you said: "We are all nasty fuckers".

----------


## Dan

> out of the top 50 rated universities in the world; 46 of them are in the US and Canada


Says who?

----------


## Seekingasylum

Americans aren't keen on imperialism save the economic variety but then, what other kind is there?
Well, I suppose there is the best kind, the last great empire which was ours which we successfully administered for nigh on 200 years. True we used its resources for our own not entirely insignificant benefit but in developing those countries under our rule the primary aim was to establish sound commerce and not to impose our culture for our own aggrandisement. That, I think, we achieved in many places leaving a heritage of communications, a robust legal framework and an ethos of fairness tempered by the occasional cruelty.
The Americans of course, like many of the former subject races, do like to tweak history as and when it suits their own brand of nationalism. The cause celebre for their revolution was no taxation without representation but in truth tax levels at the time were significantly reduced so as to benefit the locals but heck, you wanted the whole pie to yourself. 

Contrast that history with what the Americans have achieved through their foreign policies as the world's greatest superpower since the end of WW2.

Pretty dismal isn't it, and the latest celebration of its strength, the murder of an old man in his bed in front of his wife and child, trumpeted by a lame President probably sets the tone quite neatly.

----------


## FailSafe

Bin Laden was 54 years old- why do you keep talking like he was 80?  I've got a ways to go to reach 54, but I think I'll still be able to lift myself off the toilet...

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Bin Laden was 54 years old- why do you keep talking like he was 80?  I've got a ways to go to reach 54, but I think I'll still be able to lift myself off the toilet...


He was in bad health, i'm sure one could have beaten him in a cage fight with mixed martial arts and punches to the solar plexus.

(and flying drop kicks off the ropes)

----------


## FailSafe

> Originally Posted by FailSafe
> 
> 
> Bin Laden was 54 years old- why do you keep talking like he was 80?  I've got a ways to go to reach 54, but I think I'll still be able to lift myself off the toilet...
> 
> 
> He was in bad health, i'm sure one could have beaten him in a cage fight with mixed martial arts and punches to the solar plexus.


You probably couldn't have...

So he wasn't a geriatric old man- now it's been reported that no dialysis equipment or specialized medication was found in the compound (heard it on CNN a few minutes ago)- what was his health condition?

----------


## good2bhappy

^ terminal

----------


## HermantheGerman

> Pretty dismal isn't it, and the latest celebration of its strength, the murder of an old man in his bed in front of his wife and child, trumpeted by a lame President probably sets the tone quite neatly.


Something is wrong with this sentence.

OBL : old man, women/wife, children.

Old Man: well aren't we all getting older...and nasty.
Women/wife: sex object or human shield (very islamic)
Children: cover up or excuse, sex object, human shield

Should OBL have changed his nature and become a caring old man, taking care of his family and trying to start a new life in a secluded spot. Then I apologize for the above statements

----------


## FailSafe

^^

True- a bullet in the head is a pretty serious health condition...

----------


## HermantheGerman

> Originally Posted by FailSafe
> 
> 
> Bin Laden was 54 years old- why do you keep talking like he was 80?  I've got a ways to go to reach 54, but I think I'll still be able to lift myself off the toilet...
> 
> 
> He was in bad health, i'm sure one could have beaten him in a cage fight with mixed martial arts and punches to the solar plexus.
> 
> (and flying drop kicks off the ropes)



...and so was Adolf Hitler. Sick body - Sick Head.








by the way, I'am healthy  :Smile:

----------


## shadow role

> Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by koman
> ...


as far as Nobel Prizes go...lets face it,they're handing them out like confetti these days...Gore,Obama...talk about...devaluation!

----------


## good2bhappy

Interesting question
2 helicopters went in
one came out
is it possible to get 25 Navy seals plus a body on one blackhawk?

----------


## FailSafe

> Interesting question
> 2 helicopters went in
> one came out
> is it possible to get 25 Navy seals plus a body on one blackhawk?


I saw an interview with a former Navy SEAL yesterday on CNN- he said they go into any mission that involves helicopters with the expectation that one might be lost- his quote was "Two is the same as one, one is the same as none"- they definitely had a contingency plan to make it out with one helicopter.

----------


## koman

> out of the top 50 rated universities in the world; 46 of them are in the US and Canada
> 			
> 		
> 
> Says who?


Ranking Web of World universities: Top 12000 World Ranking

One of many sources...not all the same order but close enough.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Originally Posted by The_Ghost_Of_The_Moog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by FailSafe
> ...


Thats true, Hitler was also poorly. But it's only front line cannon fodder that needs to be all huge and muscly. Being huge and muscly hasn't been a useful competitive evolutionary advantage for 500 years. Hitler and Bin Laden had the grey matter - and right until the very end, others died for them.

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by FailSafe
> 
> 
> Bin Laden was 54 years old- why do you keep talking like he was 80? I've got a ways to go to reach 54, but I think I'll still be able to lift myself off the toilet...
> 
> 
> He was in bad health, i'm sure one could have beaten him in a cage fight with mixed martial arts and punches to the solar plexus.
> 
> (and flying drop kicks off the ropes)


 
Theatrics, .45 between the eyes. I much prefer gut shot and a bleed out...that takes time.

----------


## Carrabow

> Interesting question
> 2 helicopters went in
> one came out
> is it possible to get 25 Navy seals plus a body on one blackhawk?


They come in teams of 8 depending on the mission. Every mission has a redundant back up plan unless you are planning it  :mid:

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Originally Posted by The_Ghost_Of_The_Moog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by FailSafe
> ...


Ya, definitely a gut shot and bleed out is the way I think most forum members would top someone. 
Either that, or take one's penis out and pistol-whip him with it.

----------


## Dan

> Originally Posted by Dan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				out of the top 50 rated universities in the world; 46 of them are in the US and Canada
> ...


Try again. That's some kind of ranking of web activity. The fact that it puts the University of Southampton above Princeton, Yale and Oxford ought to have tipped you off to the fact that it's bollocks. That and the fact that more than 4 of the universities on the list are outside North America so it's obviously not the source of your in-no-way-made-up statistics.

----------


## koman

> Interesting question
> 2 helicopters went in
> one came out
> is it possible to get 25 Navy seals plus a body on one blackhawk?


Where did the 2 helicopter info come from.  I've read reports that there were actually 4 helicopters.  2 Blackhawks and 2 CH47's   There was supposed to be a total of 40 guys.  24 to do the commando stuff (3 x 8 man teams)  and the rest covering the exit route and any "interference" outside.
One Blackhawk made a "hard landing" and was damaged so they destroyed it.
The CH47's would carry most of the soldiers and kit with the Blackhawk gunships giving cover.   Everybody seems to have their own pet version of this thing... :mid: 

Fucked how I can see 40 (or even 25) guys plus a 6ft 6in Arab jammed into one Blackhawk.   I like my version better...hope you do too.... :Smile:

----------


## good2bhappy

^ sounds plausible
4 aircraft must have been tracked
Pakistani denial is sounding less likely

----------


## Seekingasylum

> Originally Posted by Carrabow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by The_Ghost_Of_The_Moog
> ...


Goddam pussies. A .45 cross cut dum dum blue nosed mercury slug straight up the ass is the way to go. Max the pain and get to see him holler for his ma. Works for me every time.

----------


## Butterfly

they probably took him alive and then throw him alive into the sea,

that I could believe  :Razz:

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Dan
> ...


"_The Webometrics ranking has a larger coverage than other similar  rankings  The ranking is not only focused on research  results but also in other indicators which may reflect better the global  quality of the scholar and research institutions worldwide"_

Just don't give up do you.  How would you like them ranked?   If the rankings did not include a single US based school it would meet with your total approval no doubt.....you do after all have to keep trying to convince yourself and the other pseudo intellectuals on here that Merikins are all stupid.....   Count the Nobel prizes awarded in the US....and compare the numbers with the rest of the world.....ignore the ones awarded by Norway to Gore and Obama if you like....they count for nothing....but hey, we'r off topic again....

----------


## Dan

Do you really know so little about higher education that you think any ranking which puts Southampton above Oxford is worth quoting? Really. Don't be such a twat. If you want to have a look at something worthwhile, try, for example, the Times Higher Eduction rankings. But of course America has fantastic universities. Who is going to argue with that? (Other, of course, than large numbers of Americans who do so regularly when the universities say things they don't like.) You don't need to invent patently absurd statistics to prove this. And, likewise, I doubt even Butterfly will argue with the numbers of Nobel prizes Americans have won (though, again, this hardly seems to have had an impact on the know-nothing cretinism of much of American public life - Nascar, biblical literalism, and porn is more the order the day than valuing the life of the intellect).

----------


## Seekingasylum

Bur Koman, in your hubris, you're ignoring the quite salient fact that your country is an immigrant peopled land drawing folk from all over the world. That more Nobel prizes happened to have been awarded to more folk in the USA is really quite incidental and tells us nothing about the country per se.

Any index placing Soton above Oxford is evidently worthless unless proximity to the sea is judged to be an important factor.

----------


## DrAndy

> A .45 cross cut dum dum blue nosed mercury slug straight up the ass is the way to go. Max the pain and get to see him holler for his ma. Works for me every time.


glad you enjoy it, but how do you survive each time?

what does your "ma" say though?

----------


## DrAndy

> the Times Higher Eduction rankings


oh them, they can't even spell



> But of course America has fantastic universities. Who is going to argue with that?


it does have a couple out of the hundreds in existence

----------


## DrAndy

> Any index placing Soton above Oxford is evidently worthless unless proximity to the sea is judged to be an important factor.


amusing, have a green for your bin

----------


## Carrabow

> Goddam pussies. A .45 cross cut dum dum blue nosed mercury slug straight up the ass is the way to go. Max the pain and get to see him holler for his ma. Works for me every time.


!!!Congratulations!!!

That is the spirit! Have a *GREEN* 

*I was getting worried you were a Libroturd*

----------


## Jesus Jones

Just listened to an interview with Dr. Steve Pechenick who served under numerous administrations including, Nixon, Reagan, Bush Snr, Ford and Carter and still works as a military adviser  for the Ministry of Defense. Tom Clancy's novels are apparently based on this man's experiences and expertise.

In an interview some years back he said the US government would pull this stunt with Osama and was on air recently to talk about it.  

Regardless of what you believe he was an interesting bloke.

----------


## koman

> Do you really know so little about higher education that you think any ranking which puts Southampton above Oxford is worth quoting? Really. Don't be such a twat. If you want to have a look at something worthwhile, try, for example, the Times Higher Eduction rankings. But of course America has fantastic universities. Who is going to argue with that? (Other, of course, than large numbers of Americans who do so regularly when the universities say things they don't like.) You don't need to invent patently absurd statistics to prove this. And, likewise, I doubt even Butterfly will argue with the numbers of Nobel prizes Americans have won (though, again, this hardly seems to have had an impact on the know-nothing cretinism of much of American public life - Nascar, biblical literalism, and porn is more the order the day than valuing the life of the intellect).


The "stats" are not mine. They were produced by an organization in Spain.  I have seen other "stats" from other sources which are different, but still show that the great majority of top rated schools are in the US. That is the point.  Now you can bleat all you like about it, but that's the way it is.  Nobody is suggesting that the UK and other countries don't have great universities. 

All the fuckwith remarks about stupid, ignorant Americans and references to the hill billy characters, and religious zealots that some people think are such a big part of mainstream America is just bullshit and total nonsense.  There is a part of American that fits these descriptions just as there is part of the UK that fits the village idiot, or football hooligan image, but  it would  hardly be reasonable to brand the population at large with this image.   I'm referring to the real USA here, not the version that a lot of people who have never been near the place imagine---likely to help ease their total disillusionment with their own fucked up countries.

Good to see you don't disagree with the Nobel count....kind of hard to argue that one being as the list is publish by the Nobel Institute for all the world to see.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> they probably took him alive and then throw him alive into the sea, that I could believe


#

Unfortunately for all of us "pupa" we have to read what "you could believe"!  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Originally Posted by thegent Goddam pussies. A .45 cross cut dum dum blue nosed mercury slug straight up the ass is the way to go. Max the pain and get to see him holler for his ma. Works for me every time.





> glad you enjoy it, but how do you survive each time?


He's been lucky to survive for so long and to date he's showing only minor brain damage! 




> what does your "ma" say though?


His "Ma" say's "Darling, you're a stuck up conceited little prick, but I'm your Ma and Mummy loves you and I know I shouldn't have dressed you frilly dresses when you were growing up", it's all my fault you've turned out like you have!  :rofl:

----------


## Carrabow

[quote=The Bold Rodney;1750081]


> Goddam pussies. A .45 cross cut dum dum blue nosed mercury slug straight up the ass is the way to go. Max the pain and get to see him holler for his ma. Works for me every time.


I fix that for you...

Don't let me get the credit for that one, I am absolutely astonished and awestruck on his creativity. Why I never thought of that is beyond me?

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Don't let me get the credit for that one, I am absolutely astonished and awestruck by his creativity.



Thanks for that... although I readily admit "astonished and awestruck" weren't two of the words that immediately sprang to mind re "thebent". :Smile: 


However one or two other words beginning with the letter "a" have and which are now firmly imprinted in my mind.  :Smile:

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by Carrabow
> 
> Don't let me get the credit for that one, I am absolutely astonished and awestruck by his creativity.
> 
> 
>  
> Thanks for that... although I readily admit "astonished and awestruck" weren't two of the words that immediately sprang to mind re "thebent".
> 
> 
> However one or two other words beginning with the letter "a" have and which are now firmly imprinted in my mind.


 
It is amazing how some of the members say we were animals for killing OBL. I will save my thoughts of what I had in mind.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> It is amazing how some of the members say we were animals for killing OBL. I will save my thoughts of what I had in mind.


I agree with you and what really amazes me is the ludicrous historical events the liboturds /appeazers try and connect to this momentous event. They're so absurd I'm surprised they haven't tried to link it the sinking of the "Titanic".

Many of us who are here are here because of the way the liboturds have managed to completely f*ck up our home countries and as far as I'm concerned that's the UK. :St George: 

As far as OBL's demise is concerned he went out too quickly but I believe they did the right thing dumping his body at sea (personally I would have preferred it to be fed to the pigs) and despite what one poster wrote...that compound will eventually be levelled and quickly forgotten about. 

The intelligence find is the main matter as far as I'm concerned and OBL's death was the icing on the cake another piece of murdering mussie scum. Think of all the contacts, arms dealers, banks, cell members etc. etc. who are now thinking "am I going to be next" ? f*cking excellent news all round!  :rofl:

----------


## OhOh

Osama bin Laden: UN watchdogs demand mission details | World news | The Guardian

_"Two United Nations human rights watchdogs have asked the US to provide details about the operation that killed Osama bin Laden, in particular whether it ever included the possibility that he could be captured alive.

A series of questions have arisen about the potential legality of the mission after it emerged that four of the five people killed when US Navy Seals raided the house in Abbottabad, Pakistan, were unarmed, Bin Laden among them.

Pentagon officials initially talked of "a great deal of resistance" from inside the compound, but it was revealed that American forces only came under fire in the first few minutes of the operation.

In a statement released in Geneva, the UN's special rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions, Christof Heyns, and the special rapporteur on the promotion and protection of human rights and fundamental freedoms while countering terrorism, Martin Scheinin, said the US "should disclose the supporting facts to allow an assessment in terms of international human rights law standards".

They added: "For instance it will be particularly important to know if the planning of the mission allowed an effort to capture Bin Laden. It may well be that the questions that are being asked about the operation could be answered, but it is important to get this into the open."

Their call follows a demand by the UN's high commissioner for human rights, Navi Pillay, for "a full disclosure" of the facts connected to Bin Laden's death.

In their statement, Heyns and Scheinin acknowledged that such issues were difficult to gauge during anti-terrorism operations. "Acts of terrorism are the antithesis of human rights, in particular the right to life. In certain exceptional cases, use of deadly force may be permissible as a measure of last resort in accordance with international standards on the use of force, in order to protect life, including in operations against terrorists.

"However, the norm should be that terrorists be dealt with as criminals, through legal processes of arrest, trial and judicially decided punishment. Actions taken by states in combating terrorism, especially in high profile cases, set precedents for the way in which the right to life will be treated in future instances."

Both rapporteurs are law professors. Heyns specialises in human rights law at the University of Pretoria in South Africa and Scheinin is professor of public international law at the European University Institute in Florence."_


Obama, Clinton, the navy Seals commander, Sarkozy, the "Bullingdon Bandits", the Libya Contact Group leaders and Gadaffi all up before the ICC beak, should be interesting.

----------


## Butterfly

after what happened with OBL, it seems that Americans are fair game for another 911

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> I agree with you and what really amazes me is the ludicrous historical events the liboturds /appeazers try and connect to this momentous event. They're so absurd I'm surprised they haven't tried to link it the sinking of the "Titanic".



Can you give some examples? I haven't seen these parallels.

By the way, whats a 'liboturd' I haven't heard this term before.

----------


## Chairman Mao

America military murdering unarmed innocents.

How typical of the pussies.

----------


## Takeovers

Now that Al Qaeda has confirmed OBL's death where does that leave the Conspiracy Theorists? 
Well, probably Al Qaeda is in collusion with Obama too. :bananaman:

----------


## Hawaiian Cat

> Muslims murdering unarmed innocents.  How typical of the pussies.


Fixed it for you

----------


## Chairman Mao

> Originally Posted by Chairman Mao
> 
> Muslims murdering unarmed innocents.  How typical of the pussies.
> 
> 
> Fixed it for you


Not exactly up to date on matters, are you?

----------


## Chairman Mao

_Al Qaeda has confirmed the death of its leader Osama bin Laden and vowed to launch revenge attacks on the US and its allies._

 ::chitown:: 

Given the number of innocent women and children the US military have murdered over the last decade I'm sure AQ aren't low on recruits.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Now that Al Qaeda has confirmed OBL's death where does that leave the Conspiracy Theorists? 
> Well, probably Al Qaeda is in collusion with Obama too.


Yes, Al Qaeda should send the President an invoice. They are better media consultants than Obama has at his disposal. 

They do appear to have tied up the loose ends concerning the evidence that the USA either threw away or refused to publish.

----------


## dirtydog

> Al Qaeda has confirmed the death of its leader Osama bin Laden and vowed to launch revenge attacks on the US and its allies.


And now it starts  :Sad:

----------


## Seekingasylum

> By the way, whats a 'liboturd' I haven't heard this term before.


I rather think it is an inelegant contraction of ' liberal turd ' but I may be wrong.

Probably a derogatory term for someone with a functioning brain, more then a passing grasp of what may constitute a rule of law and an ethical code of behaviour. I suspect usage is restricted to those deficient in the aforesaid definition.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

^Are Liboturds then, for example, people who want to see the end to repressive far right regimes in Yemen, Bahrain, Syria, Libya ?

----------


## dirtydog

Liboturds are anyone who doesn't think America should be allowed to kill anyone they want without trial and whenever/where ever they want, I always thought I was right wing, seems I'm a liboturd  :Sad:

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

Yes Liboturds are the sort of wet lettuce types who win the Nobel Peace Prize

Yasser Arafat
Henry Kissinger
Barack Obama

Peace - bah !

However there have also been some hardline ultra-Liboturd  types like the Dalai Lama and Martin Luther King in that list too.

----------


## dirtydog

Yeah wondered about that, the nobel peace prize for Barack Obama for killing some old bloke in his bed, wonder if they can take it back, I mean just listing the countries that he is waging war against and in surely would make them take back his nobel PEACE prize.

----------


## Takeovers

> Al Qaeda has confirmed the death of its leader Osama bin Laden and vowed to launch revenge attacks on the US and its allies.


Yes they would say that. A reason to be particularly afraid right now? By no means.

They have people ready to kill, yes that is not new. Maybe they get going now. They would anyway some day. Maybe they go without the preparation they would usually and therefore probably less effective than at a time of their own chosing and at a time where security is on alert rather than at some other time.

A problem yes but not bigger because OBL is dead.

----------


## DrAndy

> Quote: Originally Posted by Carrabow It is amazing how some of the members say we were animals for killing OBL. I will save my thoughts of what I had in mind. 
> 
> ..
> 
> I agree with you and what really amazes me is the ludicrous historical events the liboturds /appeazers try and connect to this momentous event. They're so absurd I'm surprised they haven't tried to link it the sinking of the "Titanic".


which momentous event are you talking about?

this thread is about the killing of O b Laden

yes, that man who Pres Bush said he was going to get years ago

unfortunately, many years later, the death of bin Laden is hardly momentous, just fairly certain, and far too late to actually make any difference

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

_'The world is now a safer place after Bin Laden's death. Prepare for terrorist attacks.'_

American spokesman (who fails to appreciate his own irony)

----------


## English Noodles

When will we ever see the alleged majority of peace-loving, tolerant mohamedans launch protest-marches against Al-Quaeda's terrorist-campaigns?

----------


## OhOh

> Maybe they go without the preparation they would usually and therefore probably less effective


They could do with a few lessons, maybe the "contractors" will be available soon to rent.

----------


## Carrabow

> after what happened with OBL, it seems that Americans are fair game for another 911


That is cute, and then we will retaliate in which you will have some other anti-Merican slander campaign to go about. Just remember how we think: 

First time, shame on me

Second time, shame on you  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## sabang

> First time, shame on me
> 
> Second time, shame on you


It's the other way around actually-
"Fool me once, it's shame on You. Fool me twice, it's shame on Me."

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by Carrabow
> 
> First time, shame on me
> 
> Second time, shame on you
> 
> 
> It's the other way around actually-
> "Fool me once, it's shame on You. Fool me twice, it's shame on Me."


Thats what happens when I make a quick retort. Anyhoo, Butters kills me with his logical thinking. If thats what you want to call it.

Of course I could be scrutinized as well  :Smile:

----------


## Butterfly

> Originally Posted by Carrabow
> 
> First time, shame on me
> 
> Second time, shame on you
> 
> 
> It's the other way around actually-
> "Fool me once, it's shame on You. Fool me twice, it's shame on Me."


he couldn't even get it right, like his hero, GW Bush  :rofl: 

I note that Carrabow is a right wing nutter and also a supporter of terrorist organization like UDD and Tea Party

----------


## Butterfly

> _'The world is now a safer place after Bin Laden's death. Prepare for terrorist attacks.'_
> 
> American spokesman (who fails to appreciate his own irony)


you couldn't make this shit up, this is great

we are back in 2006 Bush fuckup mode again,

and with Obama not doing the necessary financial reform, we will soon get another crisis 2008 style ala Bush

----------


## Butterfly

> after what happened with OBL, it seems that Americans are fair game for another 911


 :mid: 




> 'The world is now a safer place after Bin Laden's death. Prepare for terrorist attacks.'
> 
> American spokesman (who fails to appreciate his own irony)

----------


## Butterfly

> When will we ever see the alleged majority of peace-loving, tolerant mohamedans launch protest-marches against Al-Quaeda's terrorist-campaigns?


how could it happen ? they live in oppressive regimes sponsored and supported by the west

----------


## Boon Mee



----------


## Butterfly

if stupid Bush wasn't distracted with the illegal Iraq invasion for his oil buddies, maybe he would have caught the guy first

but forward thinking wasn't his forte,

----------


## koman

Big news from the intelligence gathering ops.  Seems AQ was planning to derail trains in the US for the 10th anniversary of 9/11.    This outfit is really losing it's edge.  Don't they know the US already has an organization doing that. In America it's called Amtrack.  Be afraid.

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by sabang
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Carrabow
> ...


One up-manship for you is the Norm isn't it? I am certifiable Nutter material; what is your excuse?  :rofl:

----------


## Mid

*Burial at sea an insult to Muslims, says Minister*
วันศุกร์ ที่ 06 พ.ค. 2554 

*SEPANG* (Malaysia), May 6 (Bernama) -- The burial of Osama bin  Laden at sea is an insult to Muslims, Minister in the Prime Minister's  Department Jamil Khir Baharom said Friday.

 This kind of thing should not happen because the dead must be respected,  he said when asked to comment on the reports that bin Laden, believed  to have been the mastermind of the 9/11 attack, was shot dead and was  quickly buried at the northern Arabian sea last Monday.

 Jamil Khir's opinion is similar to the views expressed by Muslim  scholars around the world who regard the burial at sea as a violation of  Islamic tradition.

 Jamil Khir said:"If someone died at sea in a ship in those days, it was  right for burial at sea. But today, on land? So this (the sea burial of  bin Laden) is an insult to Muslims." 

mcot.net

----------


## sabang

It is most certainly an insult to that small minority of Muslims that would like to see his grave become a shrine.
We are not sorry to disappoint you, and neither are the vast majority of your religious brethren.
Oh, a recent demonstration in 'honor' of OBL in the worlds most populous Muslim nation attracted a mind boggling 200 people.

----------


## Carrabow

> *Burial at sea an insult to Muslims, says Minister*
> วันศุกร์ ที่ 06 พ.ค. 2554 
> 
> This kind of thing should not happen because the dead must be respected, he said when asked to comment on the reports that bin Laden, believed to have been the mastermind of the 9/11 attack, was shot dead and was quickly buried at the northern Arabian sea last Monday.
> 
> Jamil Khir said:"If someone died at sea in a ship in those days, it was right for burial at sea. But today, on land? So this (the sea burial of bin Laden) is an insult to Muslims." 
> 
> mcot.net


*The other option:* Fire his butt out of the chopper from max ceiling onto the ground. 

Thats proper...

----------


## S Landreth

Just a minor adjustment was needed to your post





> if stupid Bush wasn't distracted with the illegal Iraq invasion for his oil buddies, maybe he would have caught the guy first
> 
> but thinking wasn't his forte,

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by The_Ghost_Of_The_Moog
> 
> 
>  
> By the way, whats a 'liboturd' I haven't heard this term before.
> 
> 
> I rather think it is an inelegant contraction of ' liberal turd ' but I may be wrong.
> 
> Probably a derogatory term for someone with a functioning brain, more then a passing grasp of what may constitute a rule of law and an ethical code of behaviour. I suspect usage is restricted to those deficient in the aforesaid definition.


Goddam it thegent,  I though you were up to date on this kind of thing....
Rodney (The Bold) might have brought you up to date, but he seems to have left the thread for a while.

Libo turd:    A piece of shit with far left views 

Libo tard:    A mentally and emotionally challenged piece of shit with left wing 
                 views

Libe ral:      A more general and polite term used to describe all kinds of  shit with  
                far left wing views; often dedicated to the destruction of  the civilized 
                world, in favor of stone age, violent cultures.... :Smile:

----------


## Butterfly

> If someone died at sea in a ship in those days, it was right for burial at sea


I wouldn't be surprised if they actually properly shoot him with a firing squad on the ship

hence, they did follow Muslim protocol

----------


## Humbert

It would have been a nice touch to put GWB in the bag with OBL before dropping it overboard.
And that's coming from a liboturd, libtard or liberal and in the parlance of Butters AMERICAN NUTTER.

----------


## Mid

> thepeoplesvoice.org




*‘Osama bin Laden dead’ photo deemed a fake*
Eliot Sefton
  MAY 2, 2011


_Two big giveaways suggest a hoax as world awaits official proof of his death_

    A photo purporting to show Osama bin  Laden after he was killed by US special forces (above right), which has  been circulating online today and used by some newspapers   and TV stations, is most likely a fake, according to American security  officials. They have warned the media that it is a hoax. 

    There are two giveaways: 

    First is the position of the head. If you ignore the horrific wounds,  it is clear that is exactly the same as in a stock Reuters photo of  Osama bin Laden (above left), seen countless times in   recent years. 

    Second is the colour 'jump' between the bearded face and the skin tone. 
    Both suggest that the image has been Photoshopped, and not that well. 

    It is assumed the US authorities will release an official image  showing the al-Qaeda leader dead before too long – if only to lay to  rest any conspiracy theories that he was never killed at all in   the CIA-led attack on his compound near Islamabad, Pakistan.  

thefirstpost.co.uk



Look closely at the pic I posted and the pic that The First Post labels a fake . 

The pic I posted is a screen grab from Paki TV taken soon after the news hit.




> _Uploaded by mitulaksh on  1 May 2011        
> 
> coverage of osama death_
> 
> youtube.com



.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> ^Are Liboturds then, for example, people who want to see the end to repressive far right regimes in Yemen, Bahrain, Syria, Libya ?


Nope.

Bahrain is the only one that is far-right.

The rest are far-left.

Note which one America supports.

----------


## HermantheGerman

> *Burial at sea an insult to Muslims, says Minister*
> วันศุกร์ ที่ 06 พ.ค. 2554 
> 
> *SEPANG* (Malaysia), May 6 (Bernama) -- The burial of Osama bin  Laden at sea is an insult to Muslims, Minister in the Prime Minister's  Department Jamil Khir Baharom said Friday.
> 
>  This kind of thing should not happen because the dead must be respected,  he said when asked to comment on the reports that bin Laden, believed  to have been the mastermind of the 9/11 attack, was shot dead and was  quickly buried at the northern Arabian sea last Monday.
> 
>  Jamil Khir's opinion is similar to the views expressed by Muslim  scholars around the world who regard the burial at sea as a violation of  Islamic tradition.
> 
> ...


I think we should all pay our last respect to OBL. Never mind that he killed more muslim then infidels.

----------


## Dan

> Libe ral: A more general and polite term used to describe all kinds of shit with far left wing views; often dedicated to the destruction of the civilized world, in favor of stone age, violent cultures....


Like Nick Clegg, you mean? I always find it odd when British people decide to speak Americanese

----------


## Norton

The legality, circumstances and alleged conspiracy debate over the killing of OBL will go on for years but OBL is dead. Killed by a US special forces operation as now confirmed by AQ websites. 

His death removes an Icon used to recruit martyrs for the cause. His death has little to do with the end of AQ but not for the "grave continuing terrorist threat posed by AQ" reason as stated by our politicians. 

AQ was defeated when they started killing fellow Muslims a couple years ago. This exposed OBL as nothing more than a power hungry despot dedicated to imposing, through terror, radical Islamist governments upon even Muslim populations who have no desire to be governed in this way. 

What is left of a nearly nonexistent AQ may attempt to turn OBL into some sort of martyr but it will be an exercise in futility throughout mainstream Muslims. Muslims who kill Muslims are not martyrs but rather enemies of Islam. The idea of some huge spate of reprisals for his death are exaggerated. Had AQ the where with all to recruit folks willing to do so they would have done so long before his death. 

The final death blow for AQ and other extremists was the Arab Spring. Muslims of all the countries involved did not rise up and give their lives to remove dictatorial regimes with no regard to citizens rights, only to have it replaced by a more extreme form of dictatorship such as OBL philosophically and financially supported when Taliban governed Afghanistan.

Will OBL's death eliminate Islamic extremism? No. Hitlers death didn't eradicate the nutters who still revere him and his philosophy but by any stretch they are not a serious threat to the world. 

OBL, Satan himself is dead. AQ is near dead with no hope of recovery. The reality of Islamic extremists ruling the world is dead. Only thing left is for the sheeple of the west to reject government fear mongering propaganda claiming beyond any rationale the "threat" is so great that invasion, occupation and the costs in human and financial suffering it entails is justified.

----------


## larvidchr

^ Great post

----------


## sabang

Precisely Norton. It is sadly the norm these days, but while the manufactured stocking filler of the western media, & agenda politics, has been pushing out it's predictably lightweight bombastic nonsense, authoritative voices that actually have real knowledge of the region and it's trends have been saying this all along- particularly notably, Robert Fisk. Equally predictably, ignored by the mainstream western media except for his column in the smallish, London based Independent.
The Independent | Robert Fisk

Basically, at least 80% of the rest of the media you will read is trash. Al Jazeera has some decent stuff if you sift through the garbage, as does Nick Kristof of the NY Times. You guys that are opposing the elimination of OBL 'for oppositions sake' are just part of this manufactured noise machine- you just don't get it. Still, lets make noise and avoid the real issues and trends like good Westerners- if our Press & political system is to be believed, that is what we were surely designed for. 

911 turned Osama into a half decent T shirt salesman- but nowhere near as good as Che', or even Castro in his time. The Arab Spring despatched his long mouldering and ridiculous 'cause' to the graveyard of history some time before his welcome death. People in the know were telling you all along. His memory will linger for a while as a historical curio, because of one iconic event. Ironically, his influence was considerably more fundamental on the West- in particular the USA- than it ever was on the Moslem or Arab world. Ever get the feeling you've been Had, again?  ::chitown::

----------


## Mid

> Only thing left is for the sheeple of the west to reject government fear mongering propaganda claiming beyond any rationale the "threat" is so great that invasion, occupation and the costs in human and financial suffering it entails is justified.


And that will prove to be the hardest task  :Sad:

----------


## Butterfly

OBL dead is not the issue, and not what will make him even more popular

like the Romans who killed Jesus in a public spectacle, the Americans have created a myth

OBL is that myth, and will be worshiped like a God, thanks to his sacrifice. Did you know that the word "sacrifice" means "Holy" in different latin rooted languages ? his death didn't make him a saint, but the style of his execution will. That's his real legacy.

This is why it was so important to catch him alive and do a Nuremberg. What Obama did was to feed "instant noodles" to all the American and Islamic religions nutters. If I was a Faux News fan, I would go as far as saying it was a deliberate "religious" provocation to make Islam even more virulent by an America hating Muslim president.

----------


## meepho

We in the uk have things under control as you would expect.

Watching question time with jonathan bumblebee, and the libbies are asking foe a full investigation on wether his uman rights were neglected and surely he should have been taken alive.
If it wasn't for uman rights and thier activist what a terrible world we would live in.
This guy is dead and so he should be, and the next mad muller should get the same trearment, but without the media coverage and anouncements.

Did we really have to anounce to the world he was killed, surely better to just terminate him and say nothing.

----------


## Butterfly

> for uman rights and thier activist


let me guess, illiterate conservative nutter ?

----------


## koman

[QUOTE="meepho"]Did we really have to anounce to the world he was killed, surely better to just terminate him and say nothing.

Yes they will probably keep future eliminations below the radar.  Drone strikes in N. Pakistan earlier today.....quietly taking them out in small increments here and there.   Applications for involvement with the SEALS way up. . .... :Smile: 

There may be future plans to release information on successful strikes....but I would expect them to be saved up for release in the final stages of next years election campaign.   OBL was worth 11% increase in popularity for Obama so this stuff is awesome campaign material... just have to time it right..... :Smile:

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by meepho
> 
> for uman rights and thier activist
> 
> 
> let me guess, illiterate conservative nutter ?


No butters "uman" is just a bit of quaint British vernacular ....being a Belgian commie SOB could not be expected to understand this kind of thing... :Smile:

----------


## Dan

> Originally Posted by meepho
> 
> for uman rights and thier activist
> 
> 
> let me guess, illiterate conservative nutter ?


Not really much need for the illiterate bit - at least on this board, it's covered under conservative.

----------


## meepho

> Originally Posted by meepho
> 
> for uman rights and thier activist
> 
> 
> let me guess, illiterate conservative nutter ?


sorry butters, a bit of umour.

----------


## duffy12

is he dead no pics

----------


## larvidchr

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by meepho
> ...


I suppose "illiterate conservative nutter" is not much worse than "far left loons" who accumulated their limited (due to brain damage) and wrought with misconceptions basic knowledge through Hashish smog.  :rofl:

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Butterfly
> ...


We have to accept the fact that many (actually most) far left loons on TD are holders of TESOL certificates.   This, being one of the true pinnacles of academic excellence,  gives them license to ignore the point being made, and concentrate on  pointing out minor spelling mistakes, typos, and/or small grammatical errors.  

This gives chronic under achievers a sense of importance and accomplishment. We conservatives and realists should not be too hard on them for doing this.  They have really sad lives and should be given some latitude when they respond with their customary "holier than thou" attitude... :Smile:

----------


## Carrabow

> We have to accept the fact that many (actually most) far left loons on TD are holders of TESOL certificates. This, being one of the true pinnacles of academic excellence, gives them license to ignore the point being made, and concentrate on pointing out minor spelling mistakes, typos, and/or small grammatical errors.


I was under the impression with the right amount of Dough, you can buy a degree in this honest to goodness society  :Smile:

----------


## Butterfly

ah, isn't that sweet, conservative retards feeling threatened by educated people, so typical  :Smile:

----------


## Carrabow

> ah, isn't that sweet, conservative retards feeling threatened by educated people, so typical


It obviously has not given you any common sense  :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

I reckon he's in Gitmo with a hosepipe up his arse, squealing like a little pig.

----------


## Butterfly

> It obviously has not given you any common sense


because you think you do ? hello earth ?

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by Carrabow
> 
> It obviously has not given you any common sense
> 
> 
> because you think you do ? hello earth ?


Quit talking to your feet and get with the program!

----------


## Butterfly

> I reckon he's in Gitmo with a hosepipe up his arse, squealing like a little pig.


I reckon he is in the oval office with a cigar up his arse, giggling like a little girl with Obama

----------


## koman

> ah, isn't that sweet, conservative retards feeling threatened by educated people, so typical


Yea Butters, you are one definitely one huge threat..... :Smile:

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> We have to accept the fact that many (actually most) far left loons on TD are holders of TESOL certificates. This, being one of the true pinnacles of academic excellence, gives them license to ignore the point being made, and concentrate on pointing out minor spelling mistakes, typos, and/or small grammatical errors.


You missed out using their TESOL certificate to wipe their arse on, especially useful when they're so full of shit.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 




> This gives chronic under achievers a sense of importance and accomplishment. We conservatives and realists should not be too hard on them for doing this. They have really sad lives and should be given some latitude when they respond with their customary "holier than thou" attitude...


I agree with you and I see nothing wrong with showing compassion, being reasonable or charitable to all the chronic under achievers, liboturds, etc. even "pupa" in fact I paid "pupa" my first and last compliment only today.  :Smile:

----------


## koman

> I reckon he's in Gitmo with a hosepipe up his arse, squealing like a little pig.


Now that would be something worth watching on U-Tube....way more entertaining than some stupid execution pics..... :Smile:

----------


## koman

[QUOTE="The Bold Rodney"]I agree with you and I see nothing wrong with showing compassion, being reasonable or charitable to all the chronic under achievers, liboturds, etc. even "pupa" in fact I paid "pupa" my first and last compliment only today. 

Very impressive.  Have you been taking cultural sensitivity courses recently?

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> I reckon he's in Gitmo with a hosepipe up his arse, squealing like a little pig.
> 
> 
> Now that would be something worth watching on U-Tube....way more entertaining than some stupid execution pics.....


I still like *Thegents* wad cutter up the arse hollerin' for dear mom trick a lot better. The next best idea would be to use his stomach as a trampoline.  :Smile:

----------


## sabang

> like the Romans who killed Jesus in a public spectacle, the Americans have created a myth


No, you just did. it was the Jews.  :Smile:

----------


## Seekingasylum

[quote=koman;1750674]


> Did we really have to anounce to the world he was killed, surely better to just terminate him and say nothing.
> 
> Yes they will probably keep future eliminations below the radar. Drone strikes in N. Pakistan earlier today.....quietly taking them out in small increments here and there. Applications for involvement with the SEALS way up. . ....
> 
> There may be future plans to release information on successful strikes....but I would expect them to be saved up for release in the final stages of next years election campaign. OBL was worth 11% increase in popularity for Obama so this stuff is awesome campaign material... just have to time it right.....


Lest you get totally drunk on your own propaganda, clumsily expressed or otherwise ( we slightly more literate among the board members are well used to deciphering meaning obscured by solecism, half baked though it may be ), perhaps this may be the appropriate time to remind you of some recent history.

When the good and valiant Dubya revealed that 800 or so alleged combatants  had been kidnapped and detained in his various concentration camps he also announced in justification that they represented the " worst of the worst ". This of course was based on American garnered intelligence and must therefore, in your feebleminded view, be regarded as infallible. However, 9 years down the line of those 800 " worst of the worst " approximately 640 have been released without charge and declared to have represented no threat to Uncle Sam.

Now, with that conspicuous success tucked under their belts we are now expected to believe that the same infallible agents of truth, justice and retribution have targeted correctly all those nasty mussies killed by the drones.

But of course we won't know, will we? That's the whole point of the technology, it's cheap, it's effective and above all it's very quietly done. No pictures of those dismembered children or other ordinary civilians blown to smithereens and any reports that do drift into the public domain of the innocent slaughter can be conveniently tagged as uncorroborated or propaganda and ignored.

So please do crow about the wonders of Uncle Sam and how he is saving the world but the more sentient of us are as sceptical of that as we are of any claim you and the rabble  flocking to your bombastic banner have an intellect beyond that of a snuffling hedgehog.
Toodle pip.

( with acknowledgements to Ken MacDonald )

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

I don't have a problem with Osama being shot. He knew the game he was in.

However, I do have a problem with all the other people shot by the freedom-bringers, the allied forces, who were construed as being a threat simply because, say, they didn't stop their car in time. 

I saw a photo today by the (recently deceased) Tim Hetherington of a 5 year old boy weeping when orphaned when his parents were gunned down for not stopping quick enough at a roadblock.......

....just the most extreme brutishness. It corrupts them and it corrupts the western nations too.

----------


## Butterfly

> He knew the game he was in.


of course he knew the game, and if the reports are true, he didn't do much to protect himself

he was looking for a crucification to become the new prophet, and he got it as planned

Americans have just created a new religion,

----------


## baby maker

/\..........._reruns of the........"Twilight Zone"....._

_maybe the X Factor....._



_anyhow butters...who gives a fuck........._

----------


## Butterfly

> anyhow butters...who gives a fuck


well I am sure you will get a fuck when 911 part 2 will strike, but yes, in the meantime don't pay attention to anything and keep drinking the patriotic Kool Aid  :Smile:

----------


## Wally Dorian Raffles

http://www.politesociety.com/binlade...l10%5B1%5D.swf

----------


## koman

Lest you get totally drunk on your own propaganda, clumsily expressed or otherwise ( *we slightly more literate among the* *board members* are well used to deciphering meaning obscured by solecism, half baked though it may be [/quote]

Now, here we have a classic retort from the classic self appointed academic TD libotard (almost certainly a TESOL certificate holder)......._solecism_ no less....great word, all the other academics will be impressed with that... :Smile: 

[quote="thegent"]  But of course we won't know, will we? That's the whole point of the technology, it's cheap, i*t's effective* and above all it's very quietly done. No pictures of those dismembered children or other ordinary civilians blown to smithereens 

Well now; that works both ways.  You  would just _assume_ that children and "ordinary" civilians were "dismembered, " but you would not know that, would you? 
   If you were an AQ operative and therefore a prime target for drone attacks or visits from SEALS; would you surround yourself with women and children?  

Yes of course you would; that's what these miserable fuckers do...max out the number of kiddies killed.  It's great propaganda.....as if AQ or the Taliban give a shit about "ordinary civilians"     Look at their track record FFS.

The key word in there is "effective"  ..would you  like us to use things that are not effective....that would be pretty  silly, don't you think?  Effective is always the preferred method, in  just about every circumstance.




> have an[/b] *intellect beyond that of a snuffling hedgehog*.


There you go; more of the standard intellectual "holier than thou" BS.    You guys really take your TESOL certificates very seriously, don't you?... :rofl:

----------


## English Noodles

> Originally Posted by English Noodles
> 
> When will we ever see the alleged majority of peace-loving, tolerant mohamedans launch protest-marches against Al-Quaeda's terrorist-campaigns?
> 
> 
> how could it happen ? they live in oppressive regimes sponsored and supported by the west


Really? I thought they lived in Europe. :mid:

----------


## OhOh

> would you surround yourself with women and children


Don't most men/women "surround" themselves with their family members when they can. I am not sue as to how many of the children at the "mansion" were his though.

He may have been looking after his wife's sisters children whilst they worked in the "big city".

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> Originally Posted by Norton
> 
> Only thing left is for the sheeple of the west to reject government fear mongering propaganda claiming beyond any rationale the "threat" is so great that invasion, occupation and the costs in human and financial suffering it entails is justified.
> 
> 
> And that will prove to be the hardest task


Indeed. Because the c+nts will pull yet another, and then another rabbit out of their hats to keep the fear game going. The moment you challenge the fucked up system - out comes the grim reaper again.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Originally Posted by The_Ghost_Of_The_Moog
> 
> He knew the game he was in.
> 
> 
> of course he knew the game, and if the reports are true, he didn't do much to protect himself
> 
> he was looking for a crucification to become the new prophet, and he got it as planned
> 
> Americans have just created a new religion,


I dont think there will be a 911-2. 

If the Vinson Aircraft Carrier is in town next week i'll make some enquiries about the burial, but unfortunately i'm in Bkk some of the week. 


The new US religion is the 'Religion of Torture'  - because hey - it works.

.....But sorry it doesn't.

That corrupts your society too. You start torturing one person, - where do you stop? Political opponents? Criminals? Bankers?

It's a drug. 

And the information you get is tarnished too. If I was torturing Butterfly, I could get him to admit he doesn't like ladyboys (O right!) . I could get any of you to admit anything with a waterboard and some electrodes round your testicles.

----------


## Mr Gribbs

The Australians never got Abubakar Bashir, who was the architect and spirtual leader behind the bombings in Bali, Indonesia.

----------


## English Noodles

I'm just pleased the Yanks slotted him before the UK forces caught him, took him back to the UK to be then released by the government under EU human rights guidelines and then give him a house, benefits and passport. :UK:

----------


## scrapmetalband

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by The_Ghost_Of_The_Moog
> ...


For one thing,waterboarding is not torture.We use it as a training tool.Also,we are not trying to get these bastards to admit anything,we're trying to get information which can be verified as to whether or not it's accurate.Waterboarding works.It does not cause pain,it just makes you think your going to die.

----------


## English Noodles

:rofl:

----------


## scrapmetalband

Thought you might like that.

----------


## Mid

youtube.com

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> would you surround yourself with women and children
> 
> 
> Don't most men/women "surround" themselves with their family members when they can. I am not sue as to how many of the children at the "mansion" were his though.
> 
> He may have been looking after his wife's sisters children whilst they worked in the "big city".


Not fair ball there OhOh.....you are quoting completely out of context....try again....and next time make sure you include the bit about being a prime target for attacks;....so would YOU surround yourself with close family members under these circumstances, or might you keep yourself away from innocents so as not to include them in the payback for the fanatical campaign that made you a prime target in the first place?    THAT was the question.  

Anyway, I was referring to drone strikes where _very specific target_s are a bit tricky.  The kiddies at OBL's mansion (concrete shed..only FOX continues to call it a mansion.. :Smile: )  were not harmed.  SEALS like kids... drones are not quite as selective.. :Smile:  

You left wing guys play dirty....quoting out of context like that ...haruumph... :Smile:

----------


## Boon Mee

> For one thing,waterboarding is not torture.We use it as a training tool.Also,we are not trying to get these bastards to admit anything,we're trying to get information which can be verified as to whether or not it's accurate.Waterboarding works.*It does not* *cause pain*,it just makes you think your going to die.


Deserves repeating... :Smile:

----------


## Mid

^

doesn't matter how many times you repeat it , still BS .

_Waterboarding is torture. It causes severe physical suffering in the  form of reflexive choking, gagging, and the feeling of suffocation. It  may cause severe pain in some cases. If uninterrupted, waterboarding  will cause death by suffocation. It is also foreseeable that  waterboarding, by producing an experience of drowning, will cause severe  mental pain and suffering. The technique is a form of mock execution by  suffocation with water. The process incapacitates the victim from  drawing breath, and causes panic, distress, and terror of imminent  death. Many victims of waterboarding suffer prolonged mental harm for  years and even decades afterward._

Open Letter to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales | Human Rights Watch

 :Sad: 








youtube.com

----------


## Panda

So, Bin Laden is dead. Murdered in cold blood by some American heroes. The US public are ecstatic with patriotic fervor. A lot of chest thumping and self congratulation going on. 
Obama's popularity is making a big comeback. And he is milking the moment for everything its worth with photo op visits to the 9/11 site and visits to congratulate the SEALS.

An economy drowning in unsustainable debt has all but been forgotten for the moment.

But of course there is also a down side. The terror alert has been raised in fear of reprisals. More stringent anti-terror precautions will need to be taken. Not against the terrorists, but against the American people themselves. For the greatest threat to the financial elite who control the US government is not from foreign terrorists, but from the US population who are being bled dry to finance the exorbitant profits of a few. Bear in mind that USA has the greatest discrepancy in wealth distribution between the rich and the poor of any western democracy, and that gap is increasing exponentially.

The biggest threat to the US financial elite is a rebellion by the common folks who have had enough and demand a return to basic rule of law under their constitution. Oh, but under accepted, extraordinary security laws to protect US citizens against terrorism, protest leaders will be deemed to be enemies of the state and indeed terrorists. They will be kidnapped, detained without charge and perhaps tortured. All perfectly legal and all under anti-terror laws.

Thats the way USA is going for sure. Its a slippery slope when you start compromising the basic rule of law and justice to achieve and ends by a less than ethical means.

----------


## Butterfly

of course it's torture, right wing American nutters know it full well, they are just too hypocrite to admit it

----------


## Butterfly

"We might ask ourselves how we would be reacting if Iraqi commandos landed at George W. Bush’s compound, assassinated him, and dumped his body in the Atlantic." -- Noam Chomsky

actually, we would all applaud and dance in the streets  :Smile: 




> It’s increasingly clear that the operation was a planned assassination, multiply violating elementary norms of international law. There appears to have been no attempt to apprehend the unarmed victim, as presumably could have been done by 80 commandos facing virtually no opposition—except, they claim, from his wife, who lunged towards them. In societies that profess some respect for law, suspects are apprehended and brought to fair trial. I stress “suspects.” In April 2002, the head of the FBI, Robert Mueller, informed the press that after the most intensive investigation in history, the FBI could say no more than that it “believed” that the plot was hatched in Afghanistan, though implemented in the UAE and Germany. What they only believed in April 2002, they obviously didn’t know 8 months earlier, when Washington dismissed tentative offers by the Taliban (how serious, we do not know, because they were instantly dismissed) to extradite bin Laden if they were presented with evidence—which, as we soon learned, Washington didn’t have. Thus Obama was simply lying when he said, in his White House statement, that “we quickly learned that the 9/11 attacks were carried out by al Qaeda.”
> 
> Nothing serious has been provided since. There is much talk of bin Laden’s “confession,” but that is rather like my confession that I won the Boston Marathon. He boasted of what he regarded as a great achievement.
> 
> There is also much media discussion of Washington’s anger that Pakistan didn’t turn over bin Laden, though surely elements of the military and security forces were aware of his presence in Abbottabad. Less is said about Pakistani anger that the U.S. invaded their territory to carry out a political assassination. Anti-American fervor is already very high in Pakistan, and these events are likely to exacerbate it. The decision to dump the body at sea is already, predictably, provoking both anger and skepticism in much of the Muslim world.
> 
> We might ask ourselves how we would be reacting if Iraqi commandos landed at George W. Bush’s compound, assassinated him, and dumped his body in the Atlantic. Uncontroversially, his crimes vastly exceed bin Laden’s, and he is not a “suspect” but uncontroversially the “decider” who gave the orders to commit the “supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole” (quoting the Nuremberg Tribunal) for which Nazi criminals were hanged: the hundreds of thousands of deaths, millions of refugees, destruction of much of the country, the bitter sectarian conflict that has now spread to the rest of the region.
> 
> There’s more to say about [Cuban airline bomber Orlando] Bosch, who just died peacefully in Florida, including reference to the “Bush doctrine” that societies that harbor terrorists are as guilty as the terrorists themselves and should be treated accordingly. No one seemed to notice that Bush was calling for invasion and destruction of the U.S. and murder of its criminal president.
> ...


Guernica / Noam Chomsky: My Reaction to Osama bin Laden’s Death

credit to Boonme for finding the words of god on the subject  :Smile:

----------


## nostromo

> "We might ask ourselves how we would be reacting if Iraqi commandos landed at George W. Bush’s compound, assassinated him, and dumped his body in the Atlantic." -- Noam Chomsky
> 
> actually, we would all applaud and dance in the streets


While I did not like many of policies of George W. Bush and you can not call me supporter, I would not want him dead and as you say "applaud and dance in the streets". Is this the common feeling in Belgium, only saw this dancing thing (on tv) in palestine after 9/11.

----------


## scrapmetalband

> ^
> 
> doesn't matter how many times you repeat it , still BS .
> 
> _Waterboarding is torture. It causes severe physical suffering in the form of reflexive choking, gagging, and the feeling of suffocation. It may cause severe pain in some cases. If uninterrupted, waterboarding will cause death by suffocation. It is also foreseeable that waterboarding, by producing an experience of drowning, will cause severe mental pain and suffering. The technique is a form of mock execution by suffocation with water. The process incapacitates the victim from drawing breath, and causes panic, distress, and terror of imminent death. Many victims of waterboarding suffer prolonged mental harm for years and even decades afterward._
> 
> Open Letter to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales | Human Rights Watch
> 
> 
> ...


Suffer prolonged mental harm?What,are you kidding?This scum is so fucked up in the head you couldn't make them any worse.We're talking about people that murder there own children for wanting to marry someone that they don't approve of.That murder women that get raped.That blow up schools with kids in them.I guess maybe you don't understand what we're dealing with here.It's not aQ or the Taliban,it's Islam.Islam cannot co-exist with freedom.Freedom of thought,of speech,of worshiping God in your own way.Why can't you see this for what it really is?They are trying to kill everyone that doesn't believe as they do.Don't try to tell me that most Muslims are not this way.They are infiltrating our countries,out reproducing us,using the very thing they hate"freedom"to take over from within.It's happening more in the UK than in the US.Hell,in the UK if you just look at one with disgust you get arrested because they say were offended.Before I came here I didn't hate anybody,but I can tell you,I hate these motherfuckers.That's what happens when you see what true evil really is.We have to do what ever it takes to defeat this cancer.We can try to re-learn how to be nice later.

----------


## sabang

> Same with the name, Operation Geronimo. The imperial mentality is so profound, throughout western society, that no one can perceive that they are glorifying bin Laden by identifying him with courageous resistance against genocidal invaders. It’s like naming our murder weapons after victims of our crimes: Apache, Tomahawk… It’s as if the Luftwaffe were to call its fighter planes “Jew” and “Gypsy.”


Touche'!!  :Smile: 



> We might ask ourselves how we would be reacting if Iraqi commandos landed at George W. Bush’s compound, assassinated him, and dumped his body in the Atlantic.


What an animalistic thing to do. Waterboard a confession out of him first.  :mid:

----------


## koman

> So, Bin Laden is dead. Murdered in cold blood by some American heroes. The US public are ecstatic with patriotic fervor. A lot of chest thumping and self congratulation going on. 
> Obama's popularity is making a big comeback. And he is milking the moment for everything its worth with photo op visits to the 9/11 site and visits to congratulate the SEALS.
> 
> An economy drowning in unsustainable debt has all but been forgotten for the moment.
> 
> But of course there is also a down side. The terror alert has been raised in fear of reprisals. More stringent anti-terror precautions will need to be taken. Not against the terrorists, but against the American people themselves. For the greatest threat to the financial elite who control the US government is not from foreign terrorists, but from the US population who are being bled dry to finance the exorbitant profits of a few. Bear in mind that USA has the greatest discrepancy in wealth distribution between the rich and the poor of any western democracy, and that gap is increasing exponentially.
> 
> The biggest threat to the US financial elite is a rebellion by the common folks who have had enough and demand a return to basic rule of law under their constitution. Oh, but under accepted, extraordinary security laws to protect US citizens against terrorism, protest leaders will be deemed to be enemies of the state and indeed terrorists. They will be kidnapped, detained without charge and perhaps tortured. All perfectly legal and all under anti-terror laws.
> 
> Thats the way USA is going for sure. Its a slippery slope when you start compromising the basic rule of law and justice to achieve and ends by a less than ethical means.


It should not be much of a surprise that many politicians and mainstream media have turned this event into a circus. That was bound to happen.    There seems to be a widespread notion in the "against" camp that those of us in the "for" camp don't understand all this hype and propaganda, and that we are somehow "gullible" (Butters favorite word... :Smile: )   

For me, the hype and propaganda is just that.  Hot air, posturing, vote getting BS for the politicians and ratings for the networks.  We_ know_ that. It does not change anything, and it should not distract from the real significance of the excellence SEAL operation.  I have read some sneering comments about "brave boys"  "hero"s" and stuff like that.  Well it does take real balls to do what those guys did; like it or not. so disingenuous comments like these are not helpful. Just spiteful and full of envy actually.

What is important is that a very important symbol in the world of terrorist activity has been eliminated.  A very well planned and executed operation has been carried out.  It may well be more symbolic than anything else. I believe it is, but so was the attack on the WTC, and that turned out to be quite a game changer.

 "Murdered in cold blood" would be the expected hue and cry from the left...pretty much everything we do is viewed that way, so no big surprise there. 
We really don't know exactly what went down inside that "mansion" so the cold blood part is just speculation.  There have been so many versions of events that it's anybody's guess.  He might have been grabbing his AK47 for all we know. Whatever happened was probably pretty quick and intense...close quarters combat tends to be a bit like that.. :mid:  

 Symbols are important to a lot of people on both sides of this conflict. They had their symbols and we have ours. It was inevitable that there would be an outcry about ethics and legality etc.  For the Noam Chomsky addicts, there will never be a satisfactory answer to that one so I for one will not even  attempt to explain it.   It's a bit like when a reporter once asked Louis Armstrong "what's this Jazz stuff all about"   Armstrong replied "man, if you have to ask that question, you ain't never going to understand the answer"  Let me just say that I totally support the "rule of law", but also recognize that there are times when "law" as we understand it,  is set aside in favor of the more robust laws of the jungle. 

As far as the US economy and arguments over the distribution of wealth is concerned. That is the subject of a whole other thread.  When you see cheering crowds celebrating the killing of OBL, they are simply reacting to a moment of "success" in a time when success has been a rare commodity.  Many ordinary Americans are under stress,  so a bit of patriotic fervor and relief is not such a terrible thing. although it can seem a bit lacking in good taste at times, especially to the more sedate and frequently docile Europeans, who did not seem to bat an eyelid when such jubilation broke out after the WTC was destroyed.  Well, if the the fucking A-rabs can dance in the street so can the yanks. 

    I wonder if some other outfit (such as the SAS)  had caught up with him, would the response be different?  I feel sure it would. OBL would be filling in forms for benefits and moving into his new home in St.Albans by now....or there again they may well have just shot him too....decisions decisions...

----------


## Butterfly

> Well it does take real balls to do what those guys did;


not really, they were surrounded with expensive toys and attacking an old man on his death bed, surrounded by his family

they cowardly killed his son and brother, both unarmed

----------


## Butterfly

> Well, if the the fucking A-rabs can dance in the street so can the yanks.


exactly, you are both the same kind of nutters, I don't see any differences these days between primitive Pakistan Tribes and the American public, they share the same values and they have more in common than differences

glad we finally agree  :Smile:

----------


## Mid

> We can try to re-learn how to be nice later.


Sadly you can't , your approach simply lowers yourself to the same level as those you despise .

----------


## Butterfly

BBC News - Osama Bin Laden: Pentagon releases home videos

----------


## Butterfly

interesting comments




> There is nothing glamorous about his surroundings, which resemble an urban squat. Yet a senior but unnamed US intelligence official has told journalists in Washington they now believe the compound raided by US Navy Seals last Monday was an al-Qaeda command and control centre.
> 
> If they're right then the idea of Bin Laden being too busy evading capture to get involved in operations all this time will turn out to be badly wrong.
> 
> But Noman Benotman, who knew Bin Laden personally up til 2000, tells me this is wrong, that Bin Laden was a spiritual leader but in no way a military commander.

----------


## Seekingasylum

Scratch an American, cutting through the drivelling smaltz of their cheesy patriotism and grotesque, God inspired mawkish sentimentalism, one finds a creature not unlike the lumpen kraut of yesteryear.

Their need to have a " Fuhrer ", to be led and inspired by someone who embodies their values, is, like for any insecure adolescent lost in a bewildering world they cannot understand, as crucial to them as that daily dose of mom's apple pie,the Star Spangled Banner and Old Glory.

Trouble is, most of them are quite simply too stupid or ignorant to figure out for themselves what those values should be and for guidancecthey have to rely upon  whichever passing politician's creed piques their infantile interest. Of course, Dubya was the apotheosis of this and they lapped it up not least because at last here was a man they could all relate to: intellectually diminished, semi literate, inarticulate, a simpleton turned from a life of licentiousness by the will of God who told them that it was Ok to kill, maim and torture for their Country.

Poor old Obama was always going to be up against it in following that act but at last he's understood that his fortunes will depend upon tapping into the consciousness of the very people who would have quite happily strung him up 60 years ago. Evil is a broad church but at last the President is learning how to be a Nazi.

----------


## sabang

> I wonder if some other outfit (such as the SAS) had caught up with him, would the response be different?


They'd have probably had the good sense to put a piece in his hand immediately after cutting him down, and taking a happy snap for posterity.

----------


## good2bhappy

^^^ I am not sure one can believe anything that is coming out of the US at the moment

----------


## koman

> interesting comments
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by BBC
> 
> ...


That is not so much of a stretch.  Many believe that Ayman al Zawahiri was more of a strategist than OSL, but then OBL did do a stretch with the Mujahadeen in their spat with the soviets, so he had some front line experience.  "Spiritual" leaders can do more damage than any military strategist if they are "spiritual" enough..and OBL was definitely a very spiritual guy..... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Butterfly

he was their financier and their marketing manager,

technically the execution is going to make OBL what the current pope did to JP 2

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> youtube.com


FFS - that could be F'ing Santa Claus for all anyone can tell. 
 ::chitown::

----------


## koman

> Scratch an American, cutting through the drivelling smaltz of their cheesy patriotism and grotesque, God inspired mawkish sentimentalism, one finds a creature not unlike the lumpen kraut of yesteryear.
> 
> Their need to have a " Fuhrer ", to be led and inspired by someone who embodies their values, is, like for any insecure adolescent lost in a bewildering world they cannot understand, as crucial to them as that daily dose of mom's apple pie,the Star Spangled Banner and Old Glory.
> 
> Trouble is, most of them are quite simply too stupid or ignorant to figure out for themselves what those values should be and for guidancecthey have to rely upon  whichever passing politician's creed piques their infantile interest. Of course, Dubya was the apotheosis of this and they lapped it up not least because at last here was a man they could all relate to: intellectually diminished, semi literate, inarticulate, a simpleton turned from a life of licentiousness by the will of God who told them that it was Ok to kill, maim and torture for their Country.
> 
> Poor old Obama was always going to be up against it in following that act but at last he's understood that his fortunes will depend upon tapping into the consciousness of the very people who would have quite happily strung him up 60 years ago. Evil is a broad church but at last the President is learning how to be a Nazi.


Brilliant overview of American society and leadership.  You obviously know the country very well.... :rofl:   Spend a lot of time there do you?

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> he was their financier and their marketing manager,
> 
> technically the execution is going to make OBL what the current pope did to JP 2


Doubt they'll be beatifying him any time soon though

----------


## Humbert

> Scratch an American, cutting through the drivelling smaltz of their cheesy patriotism and grotesque, God inspired mawkish sentimentalism, one finds a creature not unlike the lumpen kraut of yesteryear.
> 
> Their need to have a " Fuhrer ", to be led and inspired by someone who embodies their values, is, like for any insecure adolescent lost in a bewildering world they cannot understand, as crucial to them as that daily dose of mom's apple pie,the Star Spangled Banner and Old Glory.
> 
> Trouble is, most of them are quite simply too stupid or ignorant to figure out for themselves what those values should be and for guidancecthey have to rely upon whichever passing politician's creed piques their infantile interest. Of course, Dubya was the apotheosis of this and they lapped it up not least because at last here was a man they could all relate to: intellectually diminished, semi literate, inarticulate, a simpleton turned from a life of licentiousness by the will of God who told them that it was Ok to kill, maim and torture for their Country.
> 
> Poor old Obama was always going to be up against it in following that act but at last he's understood that his fortunes will depend upon tapping into the consciousness of the very people who would have quite happily strung him up 60 years ago. Evil is a broad church but at last the President is learning how to be a Nazi.


Your last three PMs and military have been in lock step. I guess your race can't be too bright either.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> ^^^ I am not sure one can believe anything that is coming out of the US at the moment


Or "thespent" for that matter...

When speaking of insecure adolescents, lumpen people and simpletons he appears to so well informed, I can't think why, maybe he has a magic mirror on the wall?  :rofl:

----------


## Seekingasylum

> When speaking of insecure adolescents, lumpen people and simpletons he appears to so well informed, I can't think why


I read your posts. :Smile:

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Originally Posted by thegent Scratch an American, cutting through the drivelling smaltz of their cheesy patriotism and grotesque, God inspired mawkish sentimentalism, one finds a creature not unlike the lumpen kraut of yesteryear





> Brilliant overview of American society and leadership. You obviously know the country very well.... Spend a lot of time there do you?


It's difficult to ignore someone as irritating as "thegent" and Im sure hes not rational nor is he as intelligent as he would like us to believe.

However hes typical of the many liboturds who for some unknown reason have to demean others reputations with their inane and wordy diatribes! 

Treat him for what he is... a joke!  :smiley laughing:

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Quote: Originally Posted by The Bold Rodney When speaking of insecure adolescents, lumpen people and simpletons he appears to so well informed, I can't think why I read your posts.


It's comforting to know you read my posts and many other peoples I'm sure, but reading and understanding are very different!  :Smile: 

p.s. read my previous post above please.  :Smile: 
p.p.s. I note you've still not admitted to owning a large mirror on the wall?  :Smile:

----------


## Humbert

> Treat him for what he is... a joke!


or zircon encrusted troll

----------


## FailSafe

An enterprising man could make a fortune setting up a black arm-band (embroidered with 'OBL') dealership around here.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> For one thing,waterboarding is not torture.We use it as a training tool.Also,we are not trying to get these bastards to admit anything,we're trying to get information which can be verified as to whether or not it's accurate.Waterboarding works.It does not cause pain,it just makes you think your going to die.


Where is the line drawn though once you start getting into this modus operandi? 

If someone doesn't offer up information (maybe he really doesn't have any)

...is it ok to say, waterboard his children in front of him,....just a little bit

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> An enterprising man could make a fortune setting up a black arm-band (embroidered with 'OBL') dealership around here.


A better seller would have been a video of OBL being water boarded, I'm sure it would have made millions! 

Yet another golden opportunity squandered!

----------


## good2bhappy

> ,waterboarding is not torture.We use it as a training tool.


Training for what?



> ,it just makes you think your going to die.


LOL

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> ...is it ok to say, waterboard his children in front of him,....just a little bit


No a LOT!  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## good2bhappy

So are his children guilty?

Let me get this right Oh Bold One
A liboturd is someone who believes it is wrong to torture innocent children?

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> or zircon encrusted troll


or...a semen encrusted pork sword!

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> So are his children guilty?


Guilty or not they'd love a good water boarding session and would think it was some kind of new American game!

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Originally Posted by The_Ghost_Of_The_Moog
> 
> ,waterboarding is not torture.We use it as a training tool.
> 
> 
> Training for what?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not my quotes - the above quotes are from Scrapmetalband

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by good2bhappy
> 
> So are his children guilty?
> 
> 
> Guilty or not they'd love a good water boarding session and would think it was some kind of new American game!


Actually I'm sort of pissed off about this whole waterboarding thing.  Years ago I was waterboarded several times a week for a couple of months.  I had to pay good money for it too.  After they were finished they gave me my PADI open water diving card.  Then I went out and bought my own tank, regulator, mask fins.........and now I find out these pricks are gettin it free... :mid:

----------


## Seekingasylum

> It's difficult to ignore someone as irritating as "thegent" 
> 
> 
> Treat him for what he is... a joke!


I'm sure that's how you would wish to treat everything you don't understand and I do have some sympathy for you since it must be quite difficult to manage one's life with evidently only two brain cells, one of which appears to be fully engaged in supporting the other.

But, back to my theme. The reason you, and probably many Americans for that matter, might find me somewhat irritating is simply because deep down amidst all that blubber of nasty rhetoric and brute indifference a tiny seed of doubt festers away, germinating into an uncomfortable realisation that you are all terribly wrong and I am right. To most of we more civilised people this is termed our conscience but you and your brethren, children of your own darkness, have yet to come to terms with it. 

Maybe there's hope for you yet but I certainly won't be holding my breath.

----------


## good2bhappy

> Not my quotes - the above quotes are from Scrapmetalband


apologies for the way the quote button worked

----------


## MakingALife

> Scratch an American, cutting through the drivelling smaltz of their cheesy patriotism and grotesque, God inspired mawkish sentimentalism, one finds a creature not unlike the lumpen kraut of yesteryear.
> 
> Their need to have a " Fuhrer ", to be led and inspired by someone who embodies their values, is, like for any insecure adolescent lost in a bewildering world they cannot understand, as crucial to them as that daily dose of mom's apple pie,the Star Spangled Banner and Old Glory.
> 
> Trouble is, most of them are quite simply too stupid or ignorant to figure out for themselves what those values should be and for guidancecthey have to rely upon  whichever passing politician's creed piques their infantile interest. Of course, Dubya was the apotheosis of this and they lapped it up not least because at last here was a man they could all relate to: intellectually diminished, semi literate, inarticulate, a simpleton turned from a life of licentiousness by the will of God who told them that it was Ok to kill, maim and torture for their Country.
> 
> Poor old Obama was always going to be up against it in following that act but at last he's understood that his fortunes will depend upon tapping into the consciousness of the very people who would have quite happily strung him up 60 years ago. Evil is a broad church but at last the President is learning how to be a Nazi.


Your elitist psycho-babble analysis is very over simplistic and misplaced.  Its far from the thumb print relationship America holds with their leaders.  Truth is on many levels most citizens hold a measure of contempt for their leadership, because many of the larger challenges in their lives, which connect them adversely to the decisions their leaders propagate.

Your references to possessing a deep understanding of the German psyche of 70 years ago, all the way through to the present tense insight of all Americans down to their last two leaders.  Including knowing the private motivations and insight of Prez. Obama;  Its a pretty bold elitist pronunciation...  Full of self aggrandizement, by displaying implications of possessing a deeper intellect and higher level of functioning consciousness, on your part.

Who on this board do you think will take such a ego need driven posture and post SERIOUSLY ???  

How many TD readers do you think are capable of reading your derogatory stains, without seeing the big needs of a small individual  crying out in the wilderness ?

It shines pretty clearly to many, and as such your content credibility will always remain low.    No free thinking individuals subjugate themselves to elitism on the level you manifest.   You need a captive audience, such as that found by students en chained from the imprinting of a dominating ego-centric professor.  You dont posses such a relationship here on this board, perhaps you fail to see that clearly.

Before you dump your shit on the intellect of common men - You ought to take a long look in the mirror and sift how at peace you are inside your own skin, and wonder where you need to posture in such a self aggrandizing manor is coming from.   Its pretty far from an altruistic sentiment that is present from a keeper of truthful insight.

By all means, read this and dismiss it.  Continue on your own pathway and posture, for you represent pure entertainment value to many at this point.  You dont engender discussions, you condemn them from a superior elitist position almost universally.  That is neither engaging, nor it is satisfying to the reader.  It does however represent for many the errors that occur when one allows one's ego needs to dominate, speaking at higher volumes , than the elitist baggage they attempt pass out.  

You are a poster child of omnipotent elitism...   Those with critical thinking skills and insight will absolve you of your sins, because they can sense you are a product of an unloving environment.  Its not your fault that your youthful precocious nature, unsettled the weaker ones around you,  who became un-nurturing as the own coping mechanism towards you and your threat to their own adequacy.   

You write without compassion - and from unified high ego needs....  those acts at speaks volumes,  dont think this point escapes many on this board.... ROCK ON.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Originally Posted by The_Ghost_Of_The_Moog
> 
> ...is it ok to say, waterboard his children in front of him,....just a little bit
> 
> 
> No a LOT!


Rodders. What if he still wasn't talking? (and this was about an interrogation issue that really is big - to preserve society .....aka 'The American Way')

Would it be ok to fix electrodes to his children's penises?


What i'm trying to estblish of course, is the point at which a society's acceptance of brutality suggests that their 'Way' isn't really worth preserving.

----------


## Seekingasylum

^^Drink is a terrible thing.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Before you dump your shit on the intellect of common men - You ought to take a long look in the mirror and sift how at peace you are inside your own skin, and wonder where you need to posture in such a self aggrandizing manor is coming from. Its pretty far from an altruistic sentiment that is present from a keeper of truthful insight.


Exactly the point I've been making..... "thespent" uses a mirror for posturing and self aggrandizement, that's how he manges to bore everyone with his verbose posts, HE PRACTICES being boring everydayyyyyyyyyyyyy! :rofl:

----------


## Seekingasylum

That our Rodney should identify with Making a Life perhaps tells us all we need to know and it occurs to me I was being somewhat charitable in gauging the number of his brain cells.

----------


## good2bhappy

> Drink is a terrible thing.


only when you have got any or can't afford it

----------


## DrAndy

> ^^Drink is a terrible thing.


I know, awful

----------


## MakingALife

> Originally Posted by The Bold Rodney
> 
> 
>  
> It's difficult to ignore someone as irritating as "thegent" 
> 
> 
> Treat him for what he is... a joke! 
> 
> ...


Amazing -  Your deluded framework now attempts to decode what people dont like about your pronouncements.   AMAZING  that you try tie it completely and solely to you being right and everyone else being wrong.  

GIVE IT A REST....  GET OVER YOURSELF.....   GO HAVE AN INTIMATE EXPERIENCE - IF THAT IS POSSIBLE FOR YOU...  FIND A LITTLE RELIEF  FROM THIS GARBAGE STREAM OF CONSCIOUSNESS BS THAT FLOWS IN YOUR POSTS...   IT MIGHT JUST MAKE YOU FEEL A BIT BETTER.    

Dont lecture people on consciousness, your too ego-cenrtric to posses anything close to consciousness.  What you profess to lay claim to - is another logical ego construct, tossed out there to support your claim to superiority ?      

People who operate with a high level of consciousness behave considerably different, and speak considerably different than you do.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Rodders. What if he still wasn't talking? (and this was about an interrogation issue that really is big - to preserve society .....aka 'The American Way')


Well it's difficult to say (excuse the pun) but there should be some line of control but if they had captured him alive I'd like to think they could have used all and every method to extract information from him. Maybe that's not fair but war on society isn't fair or just and extreme cases need extreme measures to be taken. 




> Would it be ok to fix electrodes to his children's penises?


Certainly not his daughters!




> What i'm trying to establish of course, is the point at which a society's acceptance of brutality suggests that their 'Way' isn't really worth preserving.


I understand what you say and unfortunately for the world we live in I believe thing's are going to get worse not better. The reason I say that is...water shortages, Oil eventually running out and food shortages.

Depsite those concerns nobody is ever going to be able to reason with the Islamic fanatics, its their way or nothing and personally I believe every effort should be made to curtail their "WAY" and give them "NOTHING", using whatever means we have at our disposal, because as sure as hell they'd do the same to all of us if they ever have the chance!

----------


## Seekingasylum

^^Erm, hope you don't think I'm being a tad personal here but, are you getting therapy?

----------


## koman

> ^^Drink is a terrible thing.


I for one agree, you really should try to stop.  I hear AA can be helpful... :Smile:

----------


## good2bhappy

> Certainly not his daughters!


how about his niece?

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> That our Rodney should identify with Making a Life perhaps tells us all we need to know and it occurs to me I was being somewhat charitable in gauging the number of his brain cells.


Thank you for your charitable concerns, you must have shortened your mirror seesion today?

However, agreeing with someone in any discussion no matter who they are indicates I'm neither self opinionated or as biased as some are here.... eh gent?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## good2bhappy

> I hear AA can be helpful


when he wasn't repeating himself maybe

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Quote: Originally Posted by The Bold Rodney Certainly not his daughters! how about his niece?




I'm having a serious rethink here...I don't suppose you have anymore pictures, information, or maybe her address do you?   :Confused:  

p.s. Is she single / married? either way she's got my vote!  :Smile:

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> ^^Erm, hope you don't think I'm being a tad personal here but, are you getting therapy?


No I don't think you're being personal and no I'm not getting therapy, but your therapist whoever he or she is isn't doing well, so I respectfully suggest you switch to another!  :Smile:

----------


## sabang

> the big needs of a small individual





> Drink is a terrible thing.





> AA can be helpful





> thing's are going to get worse not better


 ::chitown::

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Quote: Originally Posted by GettingALife the big needs of a small individual Quote: Originally Posted by thecnut Drink is a terrible thing. Quote: Originally Posted by konman AA can be helpful Quote: Originally Posted by The Bold Rodney thing's are going to get worse not better


What's the matter sab...at a loss for words?  :Smile:

----------


## Seekingasylum

> Originally Posted by thegent
> 
> ^^Erm, hope you don't think I'm being a tad personal here but, are you getting therapy?
> 
> 
> No I don't think you're being personal and no I'm not getting therapy, but your therapist whoever he or she is isn't doing well, so I respectfully suggest you switch to another!


Rodney, my enquiry was directed at your new wing man.

Please pay attention.

----------


## baby maker

so this arab guy is dead.....or it would appear so after 48 pages.
as i remember it that what this was all about....but some how i am becoming confused....perhaps i am not gifted with a higher consciousness....

this seems like a mob leaving the stadium after a very unsatisfactory game away..

or in a historical sense the citizens leaving the Colosseum after a bloodless afternoon...


............well i guess it's back to ''Waltons Mountain" for me.......... :Slomo:  :Dance:

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> perhaps i am not gifted with a higher consciousness....


Suggest you PM "thegent", I'm sure he'll put you straight, either that or insomnia will never be a problem!  :Smile:

----------


## koman

[quote=baby maker;1751344]so this arab guy is dead.....or it would appear so after 48 pages.
as i remember it that what this was all about....but some how i am becoming confused....perhaps i am not gifted with a higher consciousness....

this seems like a mob leaving the stadium after a very unsatisfactory game away..

or in a historical sense the citizens leaving the Colosseum after a bloodless afternoon...


Yes the Arab guy is confirmed dead. What you are reading now is in-depth analysis of the event and it's implications... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Originally Posted by The_Ghost_Of_The_Moog
> 
> Rodders. What if he still wasn't talking? (and this was about an interrogation issue that really is big - to preserve society .....aka 'The American Way')
> 
> 
> Well it's difficult to say (excuse the pun) but there should be some line of control but if they had captured him alive I'd like to think they could have used all and every method to extract information from him. Maybe that's not fair but war on society isn't fair or just and extreme cases need extreme measures to be taken.


If a system sees itself as sacred (and they often do)

Then defending it - if you're not averse to violent means, becomes an incredibly slippery slope.

Hence you have 
Saddam gassing the Kurds.
Thailand's elites approving of live ammo to clear demonstrators.

And both would say they are protecting their beloved system from anarchy. 

So, torture and violence corrupts the person and society that wields it. It doesn't just hurt the prisoner.

----------


## Mid

> So, torture and violence corrupts the person and society that wields it. It doesn't just hurt the prisoner.


Concur .

----------


## English Noodles

BTW,  I killed Colonel Gaddafi last night. I didn't take any pictures  and threw his body into the sea. Just take my word for it; he's  definitely dead.

----------


## Mid

delusions of grandeur there EN  :mid:

----------


## Humbert

> BTW, I killed Colonel Gaddafi last night. I didn't take any pictures and threw his body into the sea. Just take my word for it; he's definitely dead.


Liar. Hannibal Lecter did him in and then ate his liver with a nice chianti.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> BTW,  I killed Colonel Gaddafi last night. I didn't take any pictures  and threw his body into the sea. Just take my word for it; he's  definitely dead.


Where's the videos of him watching telly trying to find American Idol then?

----------


## kmart

QUOTE=English Noodles;1751359]BTW,  I killed Colonel Gaddafi last night. I didn't take any pictures  and threw his body into the sea. Just take my word for it; he's  definitely dead.[/QUOTE]


It must true then. Hurrahi

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Saddam gassing the Kurds.


Mass murder carried out by a mass murdered, I wonder if anyone would have cried "foul" if Saddam had gone out the same way OBL did? And of course it was fine while he was gassing the Iranians because that suited the West and it suited the arms manufacturers.




> Thailand's elites approving of live ammo to clear demonstrators.


Comparing the mass shootings of unarmed protesters with OBL can't be taken in the same context. OBL didn't have a system he masterminded mass murder (as Saddam did) on the pretence of his own personal and twisted interpretation of the Koran, an interpretation that many muslims vehemently disagree with.




> So, torture and violence corrupts the person and society that wields it. It doesn't just hurt the prisoner.


That's why I said the should be a degree of control, but saying that...the sentence reads like a typical "liboturd" moral highground cliche which rolls off the tongue so easily. 

Accept a fact of life...the human race by nature and necessity is often greedy,violent, bigoted and corrupt and those traits have grown worse since the introduction of the global free market system we have today. 

Earlier some idiot inferred I was pessimistic, well I'm not I'm being realistic, as the natural rescources of the world deplete matters will deteriorate that's a fact, accept it and get on with your life.  





> Concur .


Yet another rivetting post from yet another rivetting "liboturd" as usual with little say or add of any consequence. :rofl:

----------


## English Noodles

> Mass murderer


Yeh, he really killed Sunday school too.

----------


## shadow role

does Mugabe get a turn at bogeyman of the year.He actually does live in a millionaires mansion,and has unleashed terror and torture on white zimbis and pillaged and plundered the Zimbabwe treasury.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> does Mugabe get a turn at bogeyman of the year.He actually does live in a millionaires mansion,and has unleashed terror and torture on white zimbis and pillaged and plundered the Zimbabwe treasury.


No Mugabe doesn't get his turn not least because... no attack on the USA and of course there's no Oil involved. 

All he did was throw out the Brit farming landowners whereupon he gave it to his ignorant blacks,who haven't managed to farm it since. So the bread basket of Africa is fucking empty and will remain that way until they can farm their land efficiently again, that is if they ever do?

Yes he's scared a few "whitey's" but he' killed many more blacks of which most of those killings are attributed to "tribal violence", some of course were political opponents and the odd black slapper.  

He's printed "loads of money" but he's of litle interest to the West other than making a few short documentaries, one of which I believe was titled...
 "*carry on plundering you black [at][at][at][at]*!". :St George:

----------


## Boon Mee

> so this arab guy is dead.....or it would appear so after 48 pages.
> as i remember it that what this was all about....but some how i am becoming confused....


As a reminder what all the fuss was about...

----------


## English Noodles

> No Mugabe doesn't get his turn not least because... no attack on the USA and of course there's no Oil involved.


No oil = No fight for freedom. However_ if_ they do find oil there we could probably pencil in the  despatch of an invasion force to remove Mugabe from office early next month. :Smile:

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> As a reminder what all the fuss was about...


Yes, good post and the "liboturd appeazers" here should show more sympathy for the people who were murdered by AQ and OBL and less sympathy for the murdering raghead scum who planned it and carried it out! 

If they weren't so wrapped up with their own self importance, arrogance and pathetic cliche's they might cast their minds back and wonder how it felt to be burned alive or having to jump out of the towers because they couldn't stand the heat anymore.

Shame on all those "liboturds" who post about justice, fair play and human rights for murdering arab scum like OBL.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Quote: Originally Posted by The Bold Rodney No Mugabe doesn't get his turn not least because... no attack on the USA and of course there's no Oil involved. No oil = No fight for freedom. However if they do find oil there we could probably pencil in the despatch of an invasion force to remove Mugabe from office early next month.


For once "noodless" you posted something that's got my vote...

or....

 maybe we could set up some sort of "fake oil find"? let's face it we could use another war / invasion right now, the more war the merrier!

----------


## scrapmetalband

> Originally Posted by baby maker
> 
> 
> so this arab guy is dead.....or it would appear so after 48 pages.
> as i remember it that what this was all about....but some how i am becoming confused....
> 
> 
> As a reminder what all the fuss was about...


Yes Boon,good post.

----------


## scrapmetalband

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> As a reminder what all the fuss was about...
> 
> 
> Yes, good post and the "liboturd appeazers" here should show more sympathy for the people who were murdered by AQ and OBL and less sympathy for the murdering raghead scum who planned it and carried it out! 
> 
> If they weren't so wrapped up with their own self importance, arrogance and pathetic cliche's they might cast their minds back and wonder how it felt to be burned alive or having to jump out of the towers because they couldn't stand the heat anymore.
> 
> Shame on all those "liboturds" who post about justice, fair play and human rights for murdering arab scum like OBL.


Yes BR,now we know where they sit and where they stand.

----------


## superman



----------


## dirtydog

Why are Americans such religious fanatics, if a high profile person in the UK said "God Bless the UK" he would become more high profile and if he wasn't a bishop or something he would be kicked out of his job, we don't put up with you christians/catholics etc in the UK you know, the general public doesn't want your religious fantasies rammed down our throats.


PS, for the idiots, there is no god so why the fuk do you ask some imaginary thing to bless a country.

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Comparing the mass shootings of unarmed protesters with OBL can't be taken in the same context. OBL didn't have a system he masterminded mass murder (as Saddam did) on the pretence of his own personal and twisted interpretation of the Koran, an interpretation that many muslims vehemently disagree with.


OBL is something of an peculiar case 

But tolerance of waterboarding people, whether criminals/dissidents or humiliating nude convicts with snarling dogs is just simply higher up the slippery slope than clearing demonstrators with tanks and heavy machine guns.

And to use my earlier analogy - if you give childrens' testicles mild electric shocks because you want their Dad to talk to prevent a terrorist crime - then what have you become? You love freedom so much that you can hotwire a kid's gonads. ..Nuff said ! 

So, the price you pay for fighting a war on terrorism is not just a financial one. An evolution towards Police Statism is arguably a price even higher than the lives you sacrifice in a terrorist event.

I.e - if you feel that way then you don't torture, but you take your human losses on the chin, - and you haven't sacrificed your ethics in the process. Mind you thats easier said than done to rise above it all. Its too tempting just to do the opposite.

----------


## koman

> Why are Americans such religious fanatics, if a high profile person in the UK said "God Bless the UK" he would become more high profile and if he wasn't a bishop or something he would be kicked out of his job, we don't put up with you christians/catholics etc in the UK you know, the general public doesn't want your religious fantasies rammed down our throats.
> 
> 
> PS, for the idiots, there is no god so why the fuk do you ask some imaginary thing to bless a country.


What the folks back in the old world can't seem to grasp is that the vast majority of Americans are not religious fanatics at all.  There are some for sure and they can be quite vocal and politically active,  but in a free country they can and should be allowed to be so.  That hardly means they control the country.

 Naturally the media will focus on any extreme groups because they are deemed newsworthy, and  so you get to hear and see them on a regular basis.  The vast and silent majority are simply not newsworthy so you will not hear ofrsee them on your TV.   The so called "religious right" has a certain amount of clout but so does the "black" "hispanic"  "jewish" and other groups when it comes to the vote. 

There are a lot of posters who rant and rave about America, but they actually know fuck all about the place, other than the highly filtered and sensational crap the news networks choose to broadcast.

----------


## Humbert

> Why are Americans such religious fanatics, if a high profile person in the UK said "God Bless the UK" he would become more high profile and if he wasn't a bishop or something he would be kicked out of his job, we don't put up with you christians/catholics etc in the UK you know, the general public doesn't want your religious fantasies rammed down our throats.
> 
> 
> PS, for the idiots, there is no god so why the fuk do you ask some imaginary thing to bless a country.


Religion is bunk for sure. And yet the UK is one of the few countries with an offical state religion. If you all feel that strongly why don't you boot the royals out?

----------


## harrybarracuda

So if you have no oil and you don't attack America you're safe indulging in a bit of genocide then.

Erm, hang on, where's Serbia's oil? And when did they attack America?

----------


## baby maker

> PS, for the idiots, there is no god so why the fuk do you ask some imaginary thing to bless a country.


 

*Well thank God.......that's settled....at the very least we now have it* 
*by a real live authority...critic....publisher....and owner...*

*so you fucking idiots.........you been told........*

**  :UK:   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   :tantrum:   :yourdummy:

----------


## Butterfly

don't try logic with Americans, it doesn't work on them  :Smile:

----------


## dirtydog

> Well thank God.......that's settled....at the very least we now have it 
> by a real live authority...critic....publisher....and owner...


May Father Christmas Bless You..... Just about as idiotic as the mericans i reckon.

----------


## Humbert

We just had a week of Kate and Baldy's marriage rammed down the world's throat culminating in a huge religious spectacle. Sounds pretty idiotic to me.

----------


## baby maker

*/\  /\....*

*A big........*

 :tumbs: *.....to that.........*

----------


## English Noodles

> We just had a week of Kate and Baldy's marriage rammed down the world's throat culminating in a huge religious spectacle. Sounds pretty idiotic to me.


I bet Bin laden watched it on tv.

----------


## baby maker

> Originally Posted by Humbert
> 
> We just had a week of Kate and Baldy's marriage rammed down the world's throat culminating in a huge religious spectacle. Sounds pretty idiotic to me.
> 
> 
> I bet Bin laden watched it on tv.


 
 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl: .....*Oh dear.......*

*from 40 fathoms ...*

----------


## Norton

> don't try logic with Americans, it doesn't work on them


Blasphemy! Honor the gods. :Smile:

----------


## Dan

> Religion is bunk for sure. And yet the UK is one of the few countries with an offical state religion. If you all feel that strongly why don't you boot the royals out?


Indeed. The British often forget, and more often never knew in the first place, that Britain and Iran are the only two countries in the world with unelected clerics in the legislature.



> What the folks back in the old world can't seem to grasp is that the  vast majority of Americans are not religious fanatics at all.


 Depending on how the question is asked, somewhere less than one in five agree that evolution and evolution alone accounts for why humans are here. Either this is because they're thick or it's because they think that they're under some religious obligation to believe this. Discounting the possibility that it could be both, I like to be generous and go for the religious explanation.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by dirtydog
> 
> 
> Why are Americans such religious fanatics, if a high profile person in the UK said "God Bless the UK" he would become more high profile and if he wasn't a bishop or something he would be kicked out of his job, we don't put up with you christians/catholics etc in the UK you know, the general public doesn't want your religious fantasies rammed down our throats.
> 
> 
> PS, for the idiots, there is no god so why the fuk do you ask some imaginary thing to bless a country.
> 
> 
> Religion is bunk for sure. And yet the UK is one of the few countries with an offical state religion. If you all feel that strongly why don't you boot the royals out?


Why would we do that? They don't impose any stupid, archaic laws on us. And they sucker in the plebs who want pictures of royal weddings, beefeaters, Princess Di mugs, etc.

----------


## harrybarracuda



----------


## koman

> less than one in five agree that evolution and evolution alone accounts for why humans are here. Either this is because they're thick or it's because they think that they're under some religious obligation to believe this. Discounting the possibility that it could be both, I like to be generous and go for the religious explanation.


Even if that were true and I serioulsy doubt if it is (because the vast majority of Americans I've had dealing with don't think that at all) but how would that in itself make them religious "nutters"  

Even if 80% of them believe there is a god,  (more likely just _want_ to believe in a God, or something, rather than nothing) most of them don't push it, are not regular church goers and really don't think about it all that much.  That is the point.   The extremist variety is quite a small minority, concentrated in some parts of the country., but almost invisible in most places.   Strange how you find religion so distasteful in Americans but at the same time seem to fully support  Muslim fanatics in the ME... :mid:

----------


## harrybarracuda



----------


## Humbert

^^^^I'm suggesting that if religion is such a big problem, better to do something about it one's own country than criticising it in other countries. Course some people love to snoop and comment about what's in other people's shopping carts.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^I'm suggesting that if religion is such a big problem, better to do something about it one's own country than criticising it in other countries. Course some people love to snoop and comment about what's in other people's shopping carts.


But Humbert, the only religious problems we have in Blighty are fucking immigrant muslims.

Churches these days are full of wrinkly people who fear death, or young couples planning their weddings because the bint wants a "traditional" wedding (i.e. big, stupid looking dress, "Here comes the bride" playing, church bells, all that shit.

They don't normally set foot in church again except for funerals or their own last desperate days of clinging on to life.



I've just heard about the new Bin Laden drink popular in many bars. Ask for it and you get two shots and a splash of water.

----------


## English Noodles

^^^^^Seal food. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Dan

> Even if that were true and I serioulsy doubt if it is (because the vast majority of Americans I've had dealing with don't think that at all) but how would that in itself make them religious "nutters"


Disbelieving one of the most soundly accepted theories in science because God doesn't like it makes you a nutter in my book. As for the numbers, look at some surveys. It varies but it's around the 20-30% who accept bare evolution.



> I'm suggesting that if religion is such a big problem, better to do  something about it one's own country than criticising it in other  countries.


It doesn't have to be an either-or.

----------


## koman

> We just had a week of Kate and Baldy's marriage rammed down the world's throat culminating in a huge religious spectacle. Sounds pretty idiotic to me.


How was it rammed down anybody's throat any more than other generally popular news items.  News networks broadcast stuff that people want to see in order to maintain their audience and ratings.  That's like saying sports are rammed down our throats, or more recently Usama Bin Laden's untimely execution.   I trust your TV does have a channel switch as well as an on/off function... :Smile:

----------


## Humbert

> But Humbert, the only religious problems we have in Blighty are fucking immigrant muslims. Churches these days are full of wrinkly people who fear death, or young couples planning their weddings because the bint wants a "traditional" wedding (i.e. big, stupid looking dress, "Here comes the bride" playing, church bells, all that shit. They don't normally set foot in church again except for funerals or their own last desperate days of clinging on to life.


Exactly the same in my experience. To each his own.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Ah, the best one yet:

Q: What do Kate Middleton and Bin Laden have in common?

A: Last week they both got their back doors smashed in and then copped a shot to the face by a bloke in the Navy.

 :rofl:

----------


## Humbert

> Originally Posted by Humbert
> 
> 
> We just had a week of Kate and Baldy's marriage rammed down the world's throat culminating in a huge religious spectacle. Sounds pretty idiotic to me.
> 
> 
> How was it rammed down anybody's throat any more than other generally popular news items. News networks broadcast stuff that people want to see in order to maintain their audience and ratings. That's like saying sports are rammed down our throats, or more recently Usama Bin Laden's untimely execution. I trust your TV does have a channel switch as well as an on/off function...


Hypocrisy was the point K. Actually, I couldn't care less.

----------


## dirtydog

> Strange how you find religion so distasteful in Americans





> but at the same time seem to fully support Muslim fanatics in the ME


One of these groups are supposed to be reasonably educated and evolved, anyway, may the green scaly volgans of Ursla Minus bless you.



> Course some people love to snoop and comment about what's in other people's shopping carts.


May the red slimy Zoltans of Marvulious bless you.

----------


## FlyFree

> We just had a week of Kate and Baldy's marriage rammed down the world's throat culminating in a huge religious spectacle. Sounds pretty idiotic to me.


Idiotic? It was highly offensive. Someone should declare a fuckin Jihad.

----------


## koman

> Disbelieving one of the most soundly accepted theories in science because God doesn't like it makes you a nutter in my book. As for the numbers, look at some surveys. *It varies but it's around the 20-30% who accept bare evolution.*




30% would be really pushing it but I'd go for 20%   That would mean 80% don't accept it, so what's the big deal?   You can get 20% or so of the people just about anywhere to believe in some nonsense or other.

"No matter what you say or do, at least 20% of the people will be against it 100% of the time: _ Robert Kennedy_

----------


## Humbert

> May the red slimy Zoltans of Marvulious bless you.


I reckon I'm getting a red.

----------


## MakingALife

> I've just heard about the new Bin Laden drink popular in many bars. Ask for it and you get two shots and a splash of water.





> Ah, the best one yet:  Q: What do Kate Middleton and Bin Laden have in common?  A: Last week they both got their back doors smashed in and then copped a shot to the face by a bloke in the Navy.


  :bananaman:  :bananaman:  :bananaman:   Nice touch of humor

----------


## baby maker

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> Strange how you find religion so distasteful in Americans
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
_There's only one thing for it...._

_a quick read with the "Oracle of Bangkok"...._

_sage of the tabloids.........Andrew Drummond...._

__

----------


## Dan

> That would mean 80% don't accept it, so what's the big deal?   You can  get 20% or so of the people just about anywhere to believe in some  nonsense or other.


Either you've misunderstood what I wrote or you're some kind of creationist dickhead. I hope it's just misunderstanding.

----------


## Seekingasylum

I think the smart money would be on the latter.

I checked a few stats from the many septic church organisations and it seems generally accepted as accurate that between 20 and  30 % of Americans attend church or whatever constitutes a place of worship at least weekly and over 80% polled admit to believing there is a God but of which persuasion was not specified.

Personally, I find that quite worrying but I suppose if one is going to slaughter the heathen savage and feel vaguely good about it it's probably consistent to believe some god is on your side.

I have several septic chums and they all agree that whole swathes of American society in the midwest regularly attend church and in their experience of living in numerous states the primary means of socialising within the community is in fact through the local church. Of course, in the British Isles we go to the local pub.

----------


## English Noodles

> I have several septic chums


So long as they aren't chubs.

----------


## Butterfly

actually 99% of the US population is religious,

you will find that number is close to SA and Pakistan,

before 911, Americans would speak highly of SA and Pakistan dedication to their religious beliefs and for that were respected

I suspect this is also the reason behind their unconditional support of the Israeli extreme right. They are good "religious people". Wait until they start to bomb 911 style. They might have already.

----------


## Butterfly

at the end of the day, OBL won the game and the USA lost the war, on several fronts

----------


## MakingALife

There has been a lot of debate, on this thread,  about the merit's of the successful raid against OBL,  The raid itself, use of special forces, PR handling about the raid, Consequences expected from the raid, the intelligence gathered in the raid,  Osamas role in ALQ, the role of effective / ineffective use of torture in gathering intelligence, across the world stage.  ,  A great variety of topics have been voiced here.   A lot of voices spoke out and were highly critical of America, and her tactics deployed, for which many  different reasons have been offered.  Even a few voices portrayed themselves as absolutely correct.  And certain nationals were stereotyped as bewildered sheep lost in their infantile disorientation.   

Make no mistake's about the obvious...

History has recorded Osama's death on 1 May 2011,  regardless of what ever other convincing details emerge.  Osamas epitaph defines his real life as being a far cry from the mythology he worked hard to cultivate.  Take away that mythology and his has little legend remaining to entice others to join his murderous lot.  Add in his murderous excesses on his islamic brothers and he's seen in his true light.   History will likely record the follow up of this event as the end game for the influence of ALQ and their terriorist ambitions.    

For the most part, The US will be perceived as intelligent and restrained in their pursuit of OBL.   Intelligence developed through interrogation and torture, in OBL's case and ALQ in general will be considered as acceptable behavior because of the heinous nature of OBL's cold blooded murder via his terrorist plots and organization.  Intelligence gathering against terrorism by any method, will remain an accepted practice where the Geneva convention mandates have no direct application.    These pronouncements - appear to be the way world sentiment and world politics will digest this information.   

Keep an eye out on current / potential tends:

The US will very likely use OBL's death and the waning of ALQ as a closure event to precipitate their remove the costly ground presence in IRAQ / Afghanistan.   Those in power in those countries, who profit from the US presence will have to step up their efforts to nation build and consensus build and stand up their regimes.   Time for their internal politics to meet their own challenges. Regardless of the mistakes made in those two countries, a good deal of effort has been put in place to stand up democracies there after strongmen regimes have removed.  History will judge the mistakes made.

Pakistan (in her fragile political state) will remain accountable for her sins of omission in this matter - whether genuine or fabricated. They may well become the next domino regime to tumble in the region.    Pakistans willingness to bite the hand that feeds them, and not support their alley in the war on terror.  

The eyes of the world are correctly upon the hand of cards IRAN chooses to play.   Dont expect America to step in to diffuse polarizing Muslim situation, It will be up to the UN to field a multilateral force to such aggression. Two gulf wars and Afghanistan have proven democracy struggles amid the regional landscape of corruption and tribal influence.   Nation building is too costly and unstable because of negative influence of transnational Islamic factions.  

These lessons cannot be dismissed, they benchmark  America's experience in the region.  Other than tactical air / sea strikes to keep the straights of Hormus open, you can well expect America will not spill her blood unilaterally to sort out Islamic based conflicts, or threats to regional stability.

So all of the Euro centric foreigners on this board who have made it your posture to point scathing critical fingers, you need to consider the next major conflict in the PG region will be carried and settled on the backs of your souvenir troops - under a UN command. Guaranteed Oil access thanks to America's willingness to commit forces, may have already become a passing phase.  There are enough US reserves and venues open that the US would get her crude fix elsewhere and develop her Nat gas potential.  (Alaska, GOM DW drilling, Shale oil extraction, Canada's tar sands, central / south America, Africa, and the strategic Petroleum reserve).  America would fair  better that many other nations / regions.  This give her an ability to take a side line position and let regional conflict (post ALQ) in the PG run its own course.   

While I am not strongly predicting such an event will come to pass -  It's potential should not be dismissed. America may have been willing to fight for cheap oil and corporate protection.  Its much less likely she will fight for obscenely priced oil, and most oil majors are seen purely as multinationals in this era of recognized globalization.

----------


## MakingALife

> at the end of the day, OBL won the game and the USA lost the war, on several fronts


There's been no clear cut, cost free victory here by any group.  

OBL's dead and the ALQ terror organization is a shadow  of its former operational capacity.  It has lost its influence, and with that its ability to recruit, train and sponsor terrorism has waned.   The rest of the figure heads and structure are about to be disfigured when the last of the raid intel is exploited.   

Its a pretty safe bet to characterize OBL and this group as having had their "15 minutes" and their game is over.   Same case could be argued for the Taliban.

The US as a nation has paid an expensive price to fight the war on terror,  some civil liberties and measures of freedom have been eroded as well by this war on terror.    While on the surface these costs appear heavy in the loss column,  with the gain limited mostly to the reduction in terrorist  influences and operations.   I think a majority of Americans see the price paid as unavoidable to keeps ones destiny out of the hands of terrorists.  Americas struggle in this pursuit has set precedents, and reshaped acceptable behaviors against the slaughter of innocents (who are terrors victims).   While the path has not been perfect, and without error - Its been accepted on the world stage without repercussion.  As such is stands as a validation that sovereign countries legitimately can hold terrorists accountable.  

That can be perceived as a victory of sorts, even if it rings with a tin costly sound.  At no time did the world condemn US driven actions to a point of developing an organized campaign to block actions or restrict scope.   In absence of such a world response it is pretty clear that the US actions were acceptable and the US is achieving the goals it set out  to gain control over terrorist operational abilities.   Killing OBL has become  a capstone to the process, and a symbol identified with triumph by bringing accountability right to his door step.  

Given these trade offs - there is no clear cut winner / loser.   But on most counts Osama won nothing (where are his spoils ?).   

Other than blowing some greenbacks - What has the US really lost ?    As a reserve currency the USD and the USA receive the equivalent of a favored nation status with the rest of the world.   We are the marketplace of choice, because business process is more transparent here, with lower corruption demands.  Having both of there advantages, blowing  few bucks to hang out a savage enemy, its a forgivable price - easily afforded.    So What exactly has the US Lost ?

A few green backs -  The world loves them, we'll just print a few more.

A loss of market place -  US consumers make the market, and clear and transparent trade rules keep the market place open.   Safe to say US remains a major consumer market to the world.   Whether that right or wrong - doesnt matter,  because we are only talking here about what OBL won from his gambit.

You frame it in the way a defeatist - terrorist sympathizer would see things.  If that's the crowd you want to place yourself among, who am I to attempt to correct you and this outlook.   Choosing to hold up  terrorist organizations as winners, in a battle that reveals them at the lowest point in their sphere of world influence...   Thats a poor pick, and most would not agree with you here.

----------


## baby maker

MakingALife your posts make a whole lot of sense....it's refreshing to see a view that is not driven by ignorance, malice and prejudice...

It may even drive us more jaded, flippant fence sitters into more critical contributions.

All in all sound comment....it is to be fervently hoped that things settle down and are worked out.

A big call considering the citizens...if i dare use that word...of failed states... rightly perceive the huge gulf in the standards of living between the West and their societies. With no possible way to achieve this quality of life...ambivalent in the experience...the pressure to assimilate while continuing to condemn will be manifestly evident in asylum seekers and extorting third world governments.

So if anything...we might have half time....but we are far from the end game...

Thanks for the opportunity to think a little.....if only a little.

----------


## Butterfly

> There's been no clear cut,


you can spin it as much as you want, but it's as clear cut as it is

OBL has become a worldwide hero, a saint

the US is a falling Roman Empire, embattled in an expansive pointless war it will never win

----------


## Humbert

> OBL has become a worldwide hero, a saint


I hope they fit you up properly for your suicide vest butters. Chaffed underarms can really be a bitch.

----------


## Butterfly

> You frame it in the way a defeatist - terrorist sympathizer would see things. If that's the crowd you want to place yourself among, who am I to attempt to correct you and this outlook.


again you are choosing to spin and characterize the current situation as to avoid addressing the real issues. That's exactly why the defeat is inevitable.

It's not about a choosing a crowd or a camp, it's simply recognizing reality and where it's heading. You have been defeated, you just don't know it yet.

----------


## Butterfly

> I hope they fit you up properly for your suicide vest butters. Chaffed thighs can really be a bitch.


again Humbert, you are characterized by your sense of reality disconnect  :Smile: 

you will be the one soon to fit a suicide vest to "save America" from terrorist sympathizers. You know it's going to happen, you nutters will follow the petty terrorist route eventually, you haven't found your case yet (abortion ? tea party ?) but once you do, you will become as fervent as your Pakistan tribe AQ headman.

----------


## Hampsha

This is becoming a historical thread with so many posts in such short time.

----------


## Thormaturge

Somewhere a camel grieves

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by Humbert
> 
> I hope they fit you up properly for your suicide vest butters. Chaffed thighs can really be a bitch.
> 
> 
> again Humbert, you are characterized by your sense of reality disconnect 
> 
> you will be the one soon to fit a suicide vest to "save America" from terrorist sympathizers. You know it's going to happen, you nutters will follow the petty terrorist route eventually, you haven't found your case yet (abortion ? tea party ?) but once you do, you will become as fervent as your Pakistan tribe AQ headman.


And there goes Butters last marble.
Had to happen sooner or later I suppose.

----------


## baby maker

/\......well he's certain legendary....who else could put out such a constant stream of dribble.......to the extent if there is anything of substance in the postings....nobody is really pay attention....


you horrible little man......quality not quantity

----------


## baldrick

for all the gung ho osama killers there is now a counter strike map for you  - where he wheely bin hidin - Osama bin Laden’s hideout recreated in CS:S

----------


## Boon Mee

> the US is a falling Roman Empire, embattled in an expansive pointless war it will never win


Well, at least America doesn't fall into the 'cheese-eating surrender monkey' domain as so much of Euroweenieland has done...



Meanwhile, somewhere in the Arabian Sea a grouper just hunked-up one of bin laden's eyeballs...

----------


## Humbert

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1383698/Osama-Bin-Laden-dead-Radical-Muslims-burial-location-Martyrs-Sea.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Now known as the 'Martyrs Sea'.

----------


## Panda

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> 
> at the end of the day, OBL won the game and the USA lost the war, on several fronts
> 
> 
> There's been no clear cut, cost free victory here by any group. 
> 
> OBL's dead and the ALQ terror organization is a shadow of its former operational capacity. It has lost its influence, and with that its ability to recruit, train and sponsor terrorism has waned. The rest of the figure heads and structure are about to be disfigured when the last of the raid intel is exploited. 
> ...


Briefly put I assume what you are saying is that the Middle East is in such a mess due to US military and political interference, and now the USA is in such a mess economically, that they might consider it cheaper to just walk away and leave it to someone else to sort out rather than to keep spending borrowed money to keep the price of oil down?

USA is the most oil dependent country in the world. USA also has among the cheapest gasoline at the pumps of any developed western nation. Yanks are paying only about half for gas that people in other countries are.

USA can not supply its own oil needs at the present rate of consumption. Alternatives such as shale gas and deep water drilling might meet the need, but at a much higher price both financially and environmentally. 

Canada supplies around 20% of USAs oil at present. They are not doing it just to be good neighbours. The Canadian oil companies are in it to make a profit. 
If the Middle East blows up into a prolonged conflict that reduces oil supplies, that will push the world price of oil through the roof. 2 or $300 a barrel oil is not inconceivable under such circumstances, especially with demand increasing from the developing Asian nations. Canada will sell its oil to the highest bidder when existing US contracts expire. So too will all other suppliers of oil to USA, including places like Venezuela. USA will be paying the world price for imported oil the same as other countries. 

Sure USA would be able to supplement their oil needs to some extent by increasing domestic production. But that reserve production capacity is expensive and only becomes viable when world oil prices get out of hand. Around $200 a barrel is my guess. You can make gasoline out of coal or animal waste. Its terribly expensive by todays oil prices though. Hitler made his own gasoline out of coal in WW2, so the technology is nothing new. And USA has plenty of coal.

If as you theorize the Middle East blew up into prolonged military conflict restricting oil supplies to the west, the biggest looser would be USA, followed closely by Europe. The biggest winner however would be Russia as their major export commodity doubles or even triples in price.

Prolonged 2 to $300 a barrel oil would totally cripple an already wounded US economy, but yea, the people would survive and the wheels would keep on turning, all be it a heck of a lot slower. It would be the last straw to break the back of the $US hegemony. The $US would plummet to almost worthless value. A prolonged deep economic depression for USA and somewhat lesser depression for most of the rest of the world would be the outcome. One only has to look at the transient 1974 oil crisis to see what the flow on effects would be.

So, my question to you MAL is;-- do you seriously believe that USA would simply walk away from the Middle East oil producing countries and stop meddling in their business if the place blew up into a state of political/military crisis?

Such scenarios are mere posturing. Nothing more than vacant threats intended to entice the Europeans into a more active role in controlling the Middle East oil producing countries.

USA has dug itself into a deep hole over the past few decades, firstly by establishing its fiat currency as a world trading hegemony. Secondly by supporting dictators in the Middle East through economic and military assistance, which of course has resulted in terrorist resistance movements such as Al Qaeda. 
Thirdly, by building up a military machine intended to support their foreign policy economic aims through "gun boat diplomacy" that they simply can not afford to maintain without borrowed money. A military machine equal to that of the whole rest of the world put together in $ terms, if not in terms of effectiveness.
And fourthly, by domestic economic policy via the Fed whereby the working class American population were lured into rampant consumerism and debt through easy money created out of nothing and negative interest rates on savings.

I could go on about China, but I better stop there as this post is already getting too long.

----------


## Dan

^^ Pure, solid-gold trolling by the Daily Mail.

----------


## Panda

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> 
> the US is a falling Roman Empire, embattled in an expansive pointless war it will never win
> 
> 
> Well, at least America doesn't fall into the 'cheese-eating surrender monkey' domain as so much of Euroweenieland has done...
> 
> 
> ...


A country that is broke, deep in debt and only able to continue basic services to its people through unsustainable borrowing from other nations.

Yet a country that continues to wage war on other nations at the expense of its own citizens. 

A country that is hated in those foreign nations it suppresses through military and economic domination. A country that is held in contempt by the majority of population in fellow western nations.

Yep, something to be really proud of there Booners.

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> 
> the US is a falling Roman Empire, embattled in an expansive pointless war it will never win
> 
> 
> Well, at least America doesn't fall into the 'cheese-eating surrender monkey' domain as so much of Euroweenieland has done...


What? France recently banned the burkha.
Has the U.S. had the balls to do that?
Still frisking white grannies because they're afraid of offending someone.
In the states if you even so much as mention that you think Muslims are a bunch of cunts  you'll be vilified as a racist and probably arrested for hate speech.
Get a grip BM.

----------


## koman

> Canada supplies around 20% of USAs oil at present. They are not doing it just to be good neighbours. The Canadian oil companies are in it to make a profit.


Shocking news Panda.   It should be stopped immediately....such an American attitude.. :Smile:   Mind you, with the kind of money they are paying those guys up in Fort McMurray I'm surprised anyone can make a profit.

----------


## good2bhappy

It seems that the US is trying to get access to Osama's widows who are being "held" by the ISI

----------


## Boon Mee

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Butterfly
> ...


Hey!  You didn't see on the news that Delta turffed-off two Imans from a flight the other day because other passengers were 'disturbed' by them being onboard?  Things might be changing. :Smile:

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Butterfly
> ...


France burkha ban was by popular demand not by the goverment.
French govt and officials are very much unreliable trying to play all the sides all the time.
You might think the French are your friends, but when it comes to it, they have changed sides. US and UK would never get any real help from France.

----------


## Butterfly

> US and UK would never get any real help from France


why should they ? nobody in the world like the UK and the US, two infamous bullies

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> ...


Besides the point. Do you think the U.S. would ban the burka and introduce racial profiling if the majority demanded it? I don't, they haven't the guts to offend the gay black muslim  league of americans against everything.
Let alone the ACLU.
The U.S. Needs to get back too its roots.

----------


## Butterfly

I think the USS Carl Vinson is now a legitimate target for an AQ attack or as a shrine for all muslims around the world if they can capture the ship and slit the throats of all on board as a "sacrifice" for the fallen god

----------


## Cujo

What a complete and utter piece of stinking dog turd you are Butterfly.

----------


## Cujo

What a complete and utter piece of stinking dog turd you are Butterfly.
At least you seem to think highly enough of the Yanks to believe they can slay gods.

----------


## Butterfly

^ what's wrong Koojo, you don't like sacrificial religions ?

----------


## Cujo

> I think the USS Carl Vinson is now a legitimate target for an AQ attack or as a shrine for all muslims around the world if they can capture the ship and slit the throats of all on board as a "sacrifice" for the fallen god


Hmm, so you consider Bin Laden a 'god', a fallen god.
Felled by the United States Navy Seals?
Careful there butterballs, you'll create a myth.

----------


## Butterfly

> Careful there butterballs, you'll create a myth.


I didn't, you guys did  :rofl: 

oh the irony !!! your worst enemy was a religion guru, not a terrorist combatant, and you just promoted him to god status

exactly like the Roman centurions did with Jesus,

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> Careful there butterballs, you'll create a myth.
> 
> 
> I didn't, you guys did 
> 
> oh the irony !!! your worst enemy was a religion guru, not a terrorist combatant, and you just promoted him to god status
> 
> exactly like the Roman centurions did with Jesus,


The myth I was referring to was that the Navy Seals Slay gods.
But otherwise yes, I agree.
It's almost as if someone intent on the destruction of the status quo in the US ordered it.

----------


## nostromo

You dont by any means mention Obama.




> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Koojo
> ...

----------


## nostromo

> I think the USS Carl Vinson is now a legitimate target for an AQ attack


Would you like a treatment? 
Your memory imprint is damaged.

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> Careful there butterballs, you'll create a myth.
> 
> 
> I didn't, you guys did 
> 
> oh the irony !!! your worst enemy was a religion guru, not a terrorist combatant, and you just promoted him to god status
> 
> exactly like the Roman centurions did with Jesus,


The myth I was referring to was that the Navy Seals Slay gods.
But otherwise yes, I agree.
It's almost as if someone intent on the destruction of the status quo in the US ordered it.

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Koojo
> ...


Butters knows only Belgian medals, or is it Belgian Kongo.
Other people know of honour and fight for their country.

----------


## Butterfly

> Other people know of honour and fight for their country


I am assuming you are currently posting from the front zone in Iraq ?

or are you another armchair hero like so many American conservative pussies ?

----------


## larvidchr

Ahh this is a beauty  :rofl: 

Obama said that as nervous as he was about the raid, he didn't lose  sleep over the possibility that bin Laden might be killed. *Anyone who  questions whether the terrorist mastermind didn't deserve his fate  "needs to have their head examined,"* he said.

Obama: Risky approach on bin Laden was the best - Yahoo! News

Your "libbie :Wink: " leader is sending those of you concerned to the shrink boys, start booking times with your local psychiatrists.

----------


## good2bhappy

He was no Prophet

----------


## Panda

> Originally Posted by Panda
> 
> Canada supplies around 20% of USAs oil at present. They are not doing it just to be good neighbours. The Canadian oil companies are in it to make a profit.
> 
> 
> Shocking news Panda. It should be stopped immediately....such an American attitude.. Mind you, with the kind of money they are paying those guys up in Fort McMurray I'm surprised anyone can make a profit.


Err... the Yanks will pay the going world price for Canadian oil sooner or later when current contracts run out. The Canucks aint in it for charity. Plus the US government/military dont prop up the Canadian government like they do with the Saudi royal dictators. One of the problems for the US when dealing wit a democracy. And before you start spruiking off about how the USA gets only a minute amount of oil from Saudi Arabia, let me point out that as the head of OPEC currently the worlds biggest producer of cheap to recover and good quality oil, the Saudi royals have the ability to keep the world oil price down for USA by increasing production. In return the Saudi royal dictators get protection against an internal movement for democracy from USA in the form of military arms. Did you know the Saudi royal dictators just signed up for the USA to supply $60 billion worth of the latest high tech weapons?

Pretty simple when you are dealing with a country ruled by oppressive dictators who can be bought off, but much harder when dealing with a democracy like Canada.

Problem is for USA though, is that the cheap to recover and good quality oil in Saudi is fast running out.  Surprise, surprise! Iraq just happens to have the next biggest reserves of good quality and cheap to recover oil. And Saddam was inviting the Russians and Chinese in to sign contracts for its development while the west had sanctions on his regime. And he also started selling Iraqs oil in Euros which could have , and was intended to undermine the $US hegemony.
But it all fell in a pile of shit for USA. The countries oil production is hardly any better than it was before the USA invaded the place due to the civil war they induced. And the pretence of democracy has only added to their problems. Now with the Shiites in control under a democratic government, not only are they allied with the Shites in Iran, but they have actually taken this democracy thing seriously and rather than just becoming a puppet government handing over the countries wealth to USA, have put the oil development contracts out to tender.
Not surprisingly the Chinese and Russians are back in there again.

Now about Iran. Which just happens to hold the worlds third biggest reserves of cheap to produce and good quality oil  :Smile: . But of course with a government unfriendly towards USA since the Yanks engineered a coup and installed a puppet dictator who was overthrown a few decades back. Saudi oil, or at least the cheap to recover and good quality stuff is running on low these days. Maybe only another decade of two left. But no one knows for sure since the Saudi royals wont allow any international audit of remaining supplies.

Iraq and Iran are the obvious next to goals of USA dominate politically and militarily. Well, we can say that they obviously stuffed it up big time in Iraq when they switched from being Saddam's allie against Iran to attacking him and imposing regime change with a democratic government. They should have just put in another ruthless dictator prepared to sell his soul to the USA than a democratic government. But at the the time the freedom and democracy thing was easier to sell to the American voters. Similar deal in Egypt. USA propped up a thieving oppressive dictator for decades because he was a paid off pawn and friendly towards USAs wishes re Israel. Then when the people rose up against him they changed sides. Not because they wanted Mucariff gone, but because it was politically expedient domestically in USA after all the freedom and democracy propaganda they had been fed. Now they got a government emerging in Egypt that is far less sympathetic to US and Israeli needs and far more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. Hey, the price of democracy I suppose if you want to pretend to go down that route. Sometimes it can backfire and a puppet dictator regime would be more profitable.

Which of course brings us to Iran. -- "the evil ones" :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  They have , or at least are thinking about producing WMDs, so we are repeatedly told. So of course they should be invaded, or at the very least have some kind of regime change.
Oh, and besides all that they are very pally with the Russians and Chinese regarding oil development, and pretty cool towards the Yanks since they organized a coup to put the non elected, non democratic Shah back in power a few decades back in power as a US puppet. Since that episode the Iranians have trusted the USA. And cant say I blame them.

Ar, but getting back to Canada and their supply of oil to USA. No doubt there might be some covert bribery and cohesion on Canadian politicians by USA to get the best oil deal, but it aint going to be like walking into a developing country and installing a new regime.

----------


## Seekingasylum

> The U.S. Needs to get back too its roots.


Mmmm, not sure that's a realistic option, me old fruit. I mean, OK, some of you obviously wouldn't take exception to returning to dear old Blighty or possibly your spiritual home in Der Vaterland but to Ireland, West Africa, the Middle East, Ukraine, Poland. Russia and all those funny little states around it, China, Korea, Laos, Vietnam, Thailand, OHMIGOD Mexico, Pakistan ( how the fuck did they get in !!?? ), India etc, etc, might not be so easy. Or do you mean a return to that frontier spirit when a man was a man, a woman was his chattel and the only good Indian was a dead'un?

Love talking to you guys, it's just soooooo folksy 'n all, know what I mean?

----------


## robuzo

^The OBL hit is the US getting back to its roots. "We are once again reminded that America can do whatever we set our mind to," said Obama, and that's true, especially when it involves killing. We've always been very good at that.

----------


## Little Chuchok



----------


## Humbert

^That's already been posted and it was boring the first time. :Smile:

----------


## Butterfly

> The OBL hit is the US getting back to its roots.


yes, and since the US was built from an independence seeking terrorist organization, you couldn't be more right  :Smile:

----------


## sabang

> Anyone who questions whether the terrorist mastermind didn't deserve his fate "needs to have their head examined,"


How true. Neither does he deserve a grave, to act as a shrine for both adulation and hate.

----------


## Panda

> ^The OBL hit is the US getting back to its roots. "We are once again reminded that America can do whatever we set our mind to," said Obama, and that's true, especially when it involves killing. We've always been very good at that.


Yes. Very good at killing. And a lot of people in a lot of countries dont like it. Especially if its their countrymen being killed.

Sow as ye shall reap etc, etc...

----------


## dirtydog

^^But what happens if the next president is a real jesus freak with a thing about sex before marriage, prostitution and stuff like that, when he starts sending his seal team execution squads into Pattaya to execute merican tourists that are found with bar girls will there be no public outcry?

----------


## good2bhappy

they should be OK if they are naked and screaming
"I surrender, enough"

----------


## dirtydog

^A dildo or other sex toys could easily be mistaken for a gun, think its going to have to be a shoot to kill policy and take no prisoners.....

----------


## Seekingasylum

> "We are once again reminded that America can do whatever we set our mind to," said Obama,


Presumably the attempted subjugation of Vietnam has slipped the President's mind, as indeed that other ludicrous folly, Somalia.

One must never forget that when he is speaking it is not to the intelligentsia but to the ordinary man in the street, a stupid ignoramus who can be counted on to believe what he's told as long as it sounds right and appeals to all those instincts of the thickheaded patriot.

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
>  
>  "We are once again reminded that America can do whatever we set our mind to," said Obama, 
> 
> 
> 
> Presumably the attempted subjugation of Vietnam has slipped the President's mind, as indeed that other ludicrous folly, Somalia.
> ...


I don't think the US ever set its mind to doing whatever it intended to do in Vietnam- in fact, I don't think it was ever entirely sure what it was trying to do there, and instead just half-assedly killed millions in SE Asia to no purpose. Thankfully the Chinese invaded just after the US and acted even worse during their short visit than the US had. The average American right-winger subscribes to the belief that success in Vietnam required "setting the military loose" from civilian control* and killing millions more people (as encapsulated in St. Ronnie's famous "We could pave the whole country and put parking strips on it, and still be home by Christmas"), but public didn't really have the stomach for that. If the president had forgotten something related to Vietnam in connection to the OBL killing it would likely have had to do with Ngo Dinh Diem's assassination, another victim of the "We made him, we get to kill him" policy, but in response he would probably point out that he inherited this mess.

Somalia is best viewed as a training mission, and I think the lesson of that mission was not lost on many in the US military.

*Interesting mention of that in this month's Harper's Owned by the army: Has the president lost control of his generals? in the context of today's military/civilian leadership relationship, anyone wanting the PDF can message me.

----------


## larvidchr

> ^A dildo or other sex toys could easily be mistaken for a gun, think its going to have to be a shoot to kill policy and take no prisoners.....


Who knows DD sex policies might change, if Sarah Palin gets elected, I bet there will be quite a few US politicians standing in line hoping for a BJ in the oval office, BJ's might even end up becoming part of accepted normal sexual activity over there  :Smile:  :Smile:

----------


## Humbert

> the ordinary man in the street, a stupid ignoramus who can be counted on to believe what he's told as long as it sounds right and appeals to all those instincts of the thickheaded patriot.


I seem to recall the streets filled with ordinary people protesting the war in Viet Nam. It is also true according to polls that the majority of Americans are totally fed up with the war in Afganistan.

----------


## baby maker

> Originally Posted by dirtydog
> 
> 
> ^A dildo or other sex toys could easily be mistaken for a gun, think its going to have to be a shoot to kill policy and take no prisoners.....
> 
> 
> Who knows DD sex policies might change, if Sarah Palin gets elected, I bet there will be quite a few US politicians standing in line hoping for a BJ in the oval office, BJ's might even end up becoming part of accepted normal sexual activity over there


 
_.....only if the Presidents give the lead..._

_Yep! move it out of the corridor......._

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> The OBL hit is the US getting back to its roots. "We are once again reminded that America can do whatever we set our mind to," said Obama, and that's true, especially when it involves killing. We've always been very good at that.


Obviously not "very good" or it wouldn't have taken 10 years to locate the c*nt!  :rofl:

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> OBL has become a worldwide hero, a saint


You've cut down on your medication again "pupa" haven't you?

----------


## dirtydog

> Obviously not "very good" or it wouldn't have taken 10 years to locate the c*nt!


Yeah, but he was living in some cave in the middle of nowhere most of the time, only spent the weekends at his MANSION  :Smile:

----------


## brettandlek

Stuff me the wog kunt appears to be dead, can we kill this thread?

----------


## good2bhappy

Gilhani to adress Pp shortly

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> The OBL hit is the US getting back to its roots. "We are once again reminded that America can do whatever we set our mind to," said Obama, and that's true, especially when it involves killing. We've always been very good at that.
> 
> 
> Obviously not "very good" or it wouldn't have taken 10 years to locate the c*nt!


It's not as if they don't know who knew.

----------


## Butterfly

I think AQ should target the Navy Seals team, after all they are fair game for that kind of justice

the best part is they are supposed to be secret, but they were grinning with Obama for a photo op !!! not really smart, isn't it ?

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> the best part is they are supposed to be secret, but they were grinning with Obama for a photo op


You have the picture? if you do then post it, but of course you don't have it you wanker!

As far as OBL being labelled a martyr or the North Arabian sea being named "martyrs sea" as the old saying goes "In the land of the blind the one eyed man is King"! 

Finally, I hope they do pilgrimage to the place of his burial, like Lemmings do with a bit of luck, the more the merrier! :rofl:

----------


## Butterfly

I think the Pentagon should rent the USS Carl Vinson to all the muslim nutters for their annual pilgrim, with a good chance they will blow themselves up with the ship into the sea. Vengeance for OBL and less terrorists in the world,

----------


## good2bhappy

gilhani claims the ISI gave the tip to washington with regard to the whereabouts of osama

----------


## Butterfly

^ what about waterboarding ?

----------


## MakingALife

> MakingALife your posts make a whole lot of sense....it's refreshing to see a view that is not driven by ignorance, malice and prejudice...
> 
> It may even drive us more jaded, flippant fence sitters into more critical contributions.
> 
> All in all sound comment....it is to be fervently hoped that things settle down and are worked out.
> 
> A big call considering the citizens...if i dare use that word...of failed states... rightly perceive the huge gulf in the standards of living between the West and their societies. With no possible way to achieve this quality of life...ambivalent in the experience...the pressure to assimilate while continuing to condemn will be manifestly evident in asylum seekers and extorting third world governments.
> 
> So if anything...we might have half time....but we are far from the end game...
> ...


You know -  I did my best to summarize perceptions I hold in that other post, but doing so requires a lot of generalization and glossing over details.    i consider myself to have a pro American bias, despite the mistakes and shit America has stepped into off on a periodic basis.  My view alone and which differs from many here.  Forums exist to debate difference and celebrate agreement.  People's stature prospers by the pervasiveness and intelligence of their arguments, despite the bias they hold in their opinions.  Thats the way the game works here, and everything is open to question.  Clearly the entertainment factor is a part of this picture as well.  

It would be a great path if ME tensions ramp down and many states there moderate their positions and become more inclusive of the desire of their citizens.  But there are not guarantees on that.   The US moderating its confrontational positions with states such as IRAN, after finishing the business with terrorists would help this become a possible reality.

While America has a good standard of living, It is well to recognize that has eroded significantly in the last 20+ years.  Practically all households now require dual income just to get by. Education levels have be higher to get a place at the table for decent earnings. 

I grew up in nuclear family who prospered well on a single income. My siblings represented the first generation to enter college from any side of the ancestral tree.  My parents provided a good start on that process.  That standard of single income living was becoming rare in my adolescence.  It was mostly a thing of the past when I completed college.   10 + years of stagnation in middle class wages, and a clear erosion of purchasing power are facts of life in the USA.   The recent global economic crisis has eroded retirement options because of investment loss and decline in principal anchor assets held by most middle class citizen homeowners.  Life in America is not the peaches and cream situation it used to be.   The real estate crisis continues, public / private retirement system crisis is at hand,  runaway national debt and balance of payment disorders, and an unwinding of social security programs  all are on the landscape to take a chunk out of Uncle Sam's derriere. America has to focus to manage these issues into the future.  Never mind energy sector issues and currency stability issues.

This true picture of Americas challenges, are hard things for the average 3rd world person to grasp.  Even US citizens are hard pressed to focus and understand these structural challenges its institutions must meet and master.  Don't expect citizens in developing countries to recognize this.    

America exports her culture of excess through all media outlets, and as such - those are the perceptions many in the world hold when the think of Life in America. Part of the world view of America is shaped by Hollywood, and as well by the tremendous success stories of many who have arrived on her shores and built fortunes and small empires.      So 3 rd world masses will most  likely perceive the gap in standard of living between them and Americans are higher than it actually is.    While the gap itself is likely to continue to shrink in the years ahead.     

What people in the developing world look for is a feeling of opportunity to be able to improve their situation, more than just a few trappings of prosperity.  

Advancement in that area is achieved through politics and national policies.  Its a higher level process than building cohesive tribal factions and homeostasis.  Enhancements required include:   Reduction in corruption, fairness in legal systems,  National resources harnessed to build infrastructure, Improvements in education, creating a climate for investment and industrial development, freedom and mobility for citizenry.  These are built on sovereign landscapes and lift opportunities for citizens.  These goals are what the developing world citizen expects from their own political leadership.  Its a form of economic power sharing, grounded in the belief that citizens will respond positively and rise to a position of empowerment, rather than develop an addiction to entitlements.  These societal enhancement establish and strengthen the social fabric and safety nets in place.  People in the developing world want these as the foundational stepping stones of a rising standard of living.  No question these are worthy aspirations.

These developments dont appear by any magic waving of a wand, and their shape and form must resonate with local culture.  Its not a one size fits all, and the US has been slow to learn these things take multiple years to develop, even when basic freedoms and representational government is in place. I think perhaps the US has discounted how long it has taken deliver these basic tenants across it's own society - never mind to see them spring to life in a much more abbreviated time line, from a much more primitive level of government  / tribal functioning.  A strong demonstrated desire for freedom alone, is not sufficient to guarantee outcomes.  The process unwinds in a crucible that is defined by sovereign borders, and what takes place within them does so principally on a national and local level,  with external interest expressed from an international arena.

Just as well - these underpinnings that lead to a good sovereign government and a rising standard of living -  They cannot be stolen, or taken by force, or strong armed into place.  They require a channeling of resources and a local consciousness seated in the political leadership - to honor and serve the will of the people.   Only territory, possessions, and freedom can be taken taken by force.   They are not really beneficial possessions if the cost to  acquire, hold, and manage them becomes too high. Or if they produce disruptions to sovereign nation functioning which become too great.  This is why the freedom to speak, assemble, protest, and fairness in the legal systems are serious cornerstones in a free society.  This is also why those items are always hard won as well.

People confuse that what is ideal and should happen on a sovereign basis to underpins a country's development path, as being equivalent to what should take place on an international basis.   

What underpins interactions and bolsters a successful trajectory on the international stage is completely separate chess board, with different and more highly competitive aspirations.  It contrasts what delivers strong sovereign national development.   

The two items are far from the same,  They hold loosely to the same ideals, but its more lip service than deliverable.   What international influences may benefit one country, is likely not going to be a benefit to every other country, because of the nature and structure of their specific leadership and  the sovereign governmental institutions in place and in power there.   

Strong men and strong religions play a vital role in providing stability to some nations, where the feudal evolution remains entrenched, political advancement, and solid economics developments are not fully in play.  

Its hard concept to accept - that universal politics cannot be projected out in like fashion (one shoe fits all mentality) across the world stage, most would love to wish away this fact of life, but it is an unalienable fact of life. This concept carry's more truth than the concept of one shoe fitting all, equal treatment will engender equal development. This is exactly why US policy and trajectory towards terrorism is vastly more predatory and at the fringe,   than say the USAID agenda to provide food aid and development aid.  

Many pot shot the differences in US policy across many spectrum's, applied differently to different governments, and black brush it all.  Its hardly fair,  because action on the world stage is more competitive, and in truth the interests for any given nation will often clash with others.   One cannot approach the world stage without understanding the state of all others on the chess board.  Everyone plays their strongest hands in forging a history that favors their trajectory.  To not see the complexity here is to admit one is living very naively within the world.   

The challenge to self regulate ones international political objective on the world stage, is to find pathway that achieves the most progress for the world with the least down side, while ensuring ones own national objectives are held in the first order.  This is the best intention well meaning nations bring to the stage.  This is the way international politics is played. It is ripe for error, and as well ripe for distortion.  Most often mistakes outnumber successes,  and participant nations recoil and shift policy adjustments to right the wrongs they perceive.

Others successfully argue the geopolitical agenda that its international interventionist policies, designed to manipulate regional powers into keenly balanced stand offs with adversaries, (or imbalances that lead to open conflict) - as a way to stand off potential threats by buffering them into local challenging region differences, with the lowest cost to their own national resources.   

I believe both agenda's apply to Americas international agenda and outlook.   The US promotes attempts to build democracy and enhance freedoms as a vector to promote nation building for some in the developing world,  while at the same time they engage in geopolitical aspirations.    As conflicted and error prone as this agenda can become, it still stands superior to many nations who only engage solely from a geopolitical agenda - with little care for the progress of others.    This is principally why I hold my pro American bias -  Its a more altruistic agenda than many other nations deploy on the world stage, or within their own backyard.   

Handling / thwarting terrorism will always require one get their hands dirty and operate on a level as stark and vicious as the opponent.  While it is temporarily degrading and potentially attractive for its efficiency,  I disagree with the notion tossed out that it is absolutely corruptive to all future international intentions or engagements.    Such a view held by many on this board - is a cheap shot a what is actually a short term dynamic.  

One has to look no further for concrete evidence of collective world progress in many areas such as: free trade, arms control, raising of environmental awareness, progress in agreements on conservation, agreements on research into global warming, progress in immunization and disease eradication, the cross sharing of technology and sciences,  and a long host of other international agreements to recognize that collectively many countries in the the world are  working for common ground for the betterment of mankind.  Many altruistic beliefs operate collectively to produce progress.   

People point to 2nd gulf war against Sadam Hussain for WMD's, as a fabricated agenda for transplanting of a democracy and regime change.  That critical voice ignores his actions in Kuwait and his genocide by gas to ethnically cleanse his Kurddist minority.  Those actions clearly deserve the black brush treatment.  Much more that the three principal powers (with the US as the lead) for their roles in Gulf War 2.  

The US received No benefits from this action of removing Sadam, and America is left with debts and responsibility for life support over that fledgling democracy.  Oil flow was never at stake in this equation either.  The region teeters on instability, thanks to the power vaccine that remains after IRAQ's military were kneecapped by the process.   People are quick to frame this as a windfall.  But without benefits that is a false claim.  

America supported the idea of freedom and democracy as the best alternative to a despot playing more and more accelerated cards on the world stage. 
America, the UK, and Austrialia aligned on the side of good outcomes to press this campaign and were fallible in some key areas,  but the decision was based upon noble intentions, not self serving pursuits. The black brush deserves to be applied to Sadam's actions, not that of the group of 3 nations who aligned to support freedom and delivered a response against  threatening behavior.  People can cloud this issue with as much posture and detail as they choose to level,  but essentially the action was taken for the benefit of the citizens of IRAQ and for the increasing stability to the region.   Unfortunately IRAQ is still slow to deliver a full functional government inspite of the assistance provided.   Their destiny still sits better in their hands than it did with Sadams regime.  At least they have a voice and can manifest destiny along their own pathway,  before that was not possible.  While errors have been committed along the way the intention behind the action was noble and in pursuit of what is right.   

My opinions are bound to draw a lot of different voices, feel free to speak up.

----------


## good2bhappy

Gilhani also pointed out that pakistan did not create Osama
and other countries should look in the mirror before blaming others

----------


## MakingALife

> Originally Posted by MakingALife
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Butterfly
> ...


I have annotated my comments in Yellow above. feel free to respond.

----------


## sabang

> People can cloud this issue with as much posture and detail as they choose to level, but essentially the action was taken for the benefit of the citizens of IRAQ and for the increasing stability to the region.


It wasn't- it was about oil. With the series of Iraq 'wikileaks', that is all but official now- specifically, the worlds largest undeveloped oil reserves in the western desert were a glittering prize, although as it ensued the coalition of the villains has had to share that with many more foreign oil companies than they had planned, and been led to believe by the Bush administration. As for stability in the region, it had the opposite effect by empowering Iran (which now has unprecedented influence in Iraq), which in turn makes the Sunni nations and Israel nervous. Domestically, Iraq was destabilised too, to state the bare minimum. Even now, infrastructure has not recovered to the level during the UN sanctions period, and substantial parts of the country still lack reliable electricity and running water. Life expectancy has plummeted.

Against this you have the allegation that Saddam was a despot- and he was, albeit ruling by the classic 'velvet glove, iron fist' principle. But Iraq was a secular state, with the highest standard of living and education in the Arab world, well developed infrastructure, and a high degree of social mobility and personal freedom- the limits of this however soon became apparent when it came to political dissent. 47% of Doctors were women, and a long serving Prime Minister under Saddam was a Christian. In this regard, the US led invasion sent Iraq back to the last century.

More concerning really was his military adventurism, specifically the invasions of Iran and Kuwait. We were his 'friend' for the invasion of Iran- in fact saved his arse when Iran started winning, and their troops were heading for Baghdad to depose him. We were not friends when he invaded Kuwait however, hence the first Gulf War, and the ensuing (and crippling) UN sanctions. If the deposing of Saddam is considered a 'Victory' in itself, then it was been the ultimate Pyrrhic victory. The more general attitude is that it was an expensive and bloody debacle.

----------


## Boon Mee

> Against this you have the allegation that Saddam was a despot


Who gassed the Kurds, put his own people thru plastic-shredding machines and had WMD's which were removed to Syria just before the colalition of the willing went in...

----------


## sabang

> Who gassed the Kurds


Aerial maps supplied by Don Rumsfeld. It is certainly known he gassed a Kurdish village, I don't know of the extent besides that.



> put his own people thru plastic-shredding machines


Never heard that one before. I do know the story of his Troops ripping Kuwaiti babies out of incubators, to send the machines back to Iraq was a lie however. So it may be true, but more likely black propaganda imo.



> had WMD's which were removed to Syria


Nonsense, as is well known. The sort of people that believe this still think Obama was born in Kenya.

Anyway, the fact that Saddam was not a nice guy is manifest. As is the fact the ill conceived invasion, and poorly executed occupation has been a disaster.

----------


## baby maker

> To not see the complexity here is to admit one is living very naively within the world.





> This is principally why I hold my pro American bias - Its a more altruistic agenda than many other nations deploy on the world stage, or within their own backyard.





> America supported the idea of freedom and democracy as the best alternative to a despot playing more and more accelerated cards on the world stage.





> My opinions are bound to draw a lot of different voices, feel free to speak up.





> A big call considering the citizens...if i dare use that word...of failed states... rightly perceive the huge gulf in the standards of living between the West and their societies. With no possible way to achieve this quality of life...ambivalent in the experience...the pressure to assimilate while continuing to condemn will be manifestly evident in asylum seekers and extorting third world governments


 
Can only commend you on a well thought view....i neither refute that view nor strangely enough am i as confident as your good self.

As i tried to express in my less articulate fashion and as you have readily confirmed the world players are only proxies...even if only loosely so...for their citizens.....

and nobody is on the same page.

....but you make a compelling point on Saddam Hussein's regime change...
the fledgling government...it would be hoped...is a better alternative. 

The key as always is self interest....and how that self interest is expressed.

There lies in this analysis the prime directive...nay the assumption....that the self interest expressed is for the better good.

An assumption which is at best opaque and at worst non existent....it is my fervent hope that you are right and i misunderstand mankind....the evidence of past ages of the perfidy of men is too numerous to recount....

but eventually...when enough blood is spilt...self interest will dictate a consensus of reason...

It is too early as yet....the time is not ripe....
it is an idea whose time has not yet come.........

and yet the arguments of members post are compelling...we live in hope...

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## Panda

[quote=MakingALife;1752713]

Whew. And I thought my post was a bit long. A lot of stuff to digest there. 
So much to respond to, so I will keep it to a few simple headings.

1. Its an oft trotted out excuse/myth that since USA imports only a small percentage of its oil from the Middle East, their military interest in the area is not related to economics or oil.

The Middle East is by far the largest producer of "cheap to recover and high quality" oil. Saudi Arabia being the biggest player at the moment as head of OPEC, but with Iraq and Iran set to take over that role as the Saudi reserves become depleted. It is no coincidence that USA invaded Iraq with the intent of creating regime change and has the same stated aim for Iran.

It is not the source of USAs oil imports that is in question. It is the world price that USA would have to pay for its imports if Middle East production was to decline. Hence the reason why USA was pleading with their Saudi friends to turn up production during the recent oil price spike. As the Saudi reserves deplete, Iraq and Iran with their second and third largest in the world reserves of cheap to recover and good quality oil will come to be in the drivers seat controlling the world price of oil that USA will be forced to pay. Its not really a question of supply for USA, very much more a question of price. USA needs friendly and pliable governments in those key countries to manage the world price.

2. Re USAs largest reserves of gold bullion in the world. Yes thats true. 8,000 tons of it supposedly. Worth about half a Trillion $s on todays market. Yet only enough to pay for about 4% of USAs current debt. The world price of gold would have to rise to around $US 40,000 and ounce to be any kind of a real hedge.
However, having said that, if (when) the $US hegemony falls apart as it surely must, and the tradable value of the $US drops substantially against other currencies as well as gold, then that gold in reserve will be a lot more valuable in repaying debt contracts written in $USs. 

3. Re the $US as a safe haven for investors in times of financial crisis. Yes thats been true in the past. Even as recently as the '07/'08 WFC investors flocked to the $US for safety. However the $US has been in gradual decline against other currencies over the past 30 plus year since they established their paper fiat currency as the worlds trading medium. That decline in purchasing power has increased over the past 10 years. The worlds faith in the value of the $US aint what it used to be when America was a producer nation rather than the debtor nation that it now has become. The $US hegemony is coming to an end. But not until the rest of the world figures out what to replace it with; -- which could be a few more years just yet. But when USA loses that position as the world hegemony trading currency, investors will seek a more reliable source of security.
US Dollar Index

4. Re the pump price of gasoline in countries around the world. USA has among the cheapest gasoline of any developed country in the world. Certainly, many developing countries like Thailand have relatively cheap gasoline due to low or absent taxes and government subsidizes. But most of the developed countries are paying twice as much or more than USA.
Gasoline and diesel usage and pricing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Its all about oil. Or rather controlling the price of oil for USA. 

USA is an economy in free fall. Government spending exceeding revenues by massive amounts. Debt to GDP approaching that of Greece. Negative balance of trade year after year. Among the lowest social benefits for its citizens of any developed country. The widest gap between the rich and the poor of any developed country. Massive military expenditure and high unemployment.

USA is an economy in desperate trouble today. A far cry from what it was 40 years ago. A sustained 100% or 200% rise in the world price of raw oil would totally cripple its already failing economy. Hence the reason USA is so keen to use its military prowess to control the governments of current and future Middle Eastern countries who have the ability to control the world price of oil through the simple law of supply and demand.

It aint where USA gets its oil from that counts, its what they pay for it that really matters.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Gilhani also pointed out that pakistan did not create Osama and other countries should look in the mirror before blaming others


Empty rhetoric from a leader who isn't in control, remind you of anyone in Thailand?

----------


## Seekingasylum

> and had WMD's which were removed to Syria just before the colalition of the willing went in...


Now here's a man who clearly would like to participate in my timeshare villa development down in Yala.
How many shall I put you down for? A man with your obvious perspicacity must surely want to jump in, feet first?

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by MakingALife
> 
> People can cloud this issue with as much posture and detail as they choose to level, but essentially the action was taken for the benefit of the citizens of IRAQ and for the increasing stability to the region.
> 
> 
> It wasn't- it was about oil. With the series of Iraq 'wikileaks', that is all but official now-


Or, to put it another way, the only reason anyone gives a damn about stability in the region was because there is oil there. It's like people who argue that the US Civil War wasn't "about" slavery- sure, there were a lot of other factors involved, but if there had been no slavery issue there would have been no war. Some of the more vocal proponents of the second Iraq war may have indeed considered other issues to be paramount, such as the safety of the Kurds, but absent the oil under Iraq no-one would have listened.

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## The Bold Rodney

> Who gassed the Kurds,


He did!




> put his own people thru plastic-shredding machines


Not heard that one but possibly as Saddam was inventive when it came to torturing people!




> and had WMD's which were removed to Syria just before the colalition of the willing went in...


You've just completely f*cked up your post, well done!  :Spam:

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## Johnclave

But US still didnt reveal Osama's body publically thats why it feels some thing fishy

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## The Bold Rodney

> But US still didnt reveal Osama's body publically thats why it feels some thing fishy


Almost as "fishy" as the martyrs sea?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Panda

> Originally Posted by Boon Mee
> 
> put his own people thru plastic-shredding machines
> 
> 
> Not heard that one but possibly as Saddam was inventive when it came to torturing people!


No problem. Torture has been given the green light by Booners and the like. You get the answers you prefer that way. 

Saddam's approach was indeed innovative. Torture em. Get the confessions, and get rid of the body all in one go!  :Smile: 

Saves all that stuff setting up military trials or having to go to the trouble of dumping the body in the ocean.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> People point to 2nd gulf war against Sadam Hussain for WMD's, as a  fabricated agenda for transplanting of a democracy and regime change.   That critical voice ignores his actions in Kuwait and his genocide by  gas to ethnically cleanse his Kurddist minority.  Those actions clearly  deserve the black brush treatment.  Much more that the three principal  powers (with the US as the lead) for their roles in Gulf War 2.


Given that the 'merkins sold him the materials for chemical weapons on the basis that he was to use them against Iran, and given their tacit approval to his actions against Kuwait (no doubt with a hidden agenda), I find this rather amusing. 




> The _US taxpayer_ received No benefits from this action of removing Sadam, and  the _US taxpayer_ is left with debts and responsibility for life support over that  fledgling democracy.


Fixed that for you.




> America supported the idea of freedom and democracy as the best  alternative to a despot playing more and more accelerated cards on the  world stage.


What cards? And if they're so quick to support freedom and democracy, why are they turning a virtual blind eye to what's happening in Bahrain? No, you don't need to answer that rather obvious question.




> America, the UK, and Austrialia aligned on the side of good outcomes to  press this campaign and were fallible in some key areas,  but the  decision was based upon noble intentions, not self serving pursuits.


American politicians and businessmen chose this path for their own, extremely lucrative purposes. The puppies in Britain and Australia just did their usual boot licking. 




> The  black brush deserves to be applied to Sadam's actions, not that of the  group of 3 nations who aligned to support freedom and delivered a  response against  threatening behavior.  People can cloud this issue  with as much posture and detail as they choose to level,  but  essentially the action was taken for the benefit of the citizens of IRAQ  and for the increasing stability to the region.   Unfortunately IRAQ is  still slow to deliver a full functional government inspite of the  assistance provided.   Their destiny still sits better in their hands  than it did with Sadams regime.  At least they have a voice and can  manifest destiny along their own pathway,  before that was not possible.   While errors have been committed along the way the intention behind  the action was noble and in pursuit of what is right.


What irks me is that the very behaviour encouraged by the USA was the stick with which they chose to beat Saddam. The Middle East was far more stable with him in charge of Iraq than it has been subsequently. Kuwait were basically stealing Iraq's oil from under them despite several warnings to cease, and as far as I'm concerned the snivelling little bedouins got what they deserved.

Your idealistic claim of a future stable government in Iraq is highly implausible, since it is pretty well in a civil - or rather sectarian - war, and will be as long as Iran is stoking the fire, and as long as Sunni hate Shia and vice versa.

In fact the nearest thing we can hope to a return to stability is the fall of Assad and the installation of a democracy in Syria, which will be very much Sunni, and which will rip the bollocks out of Hezbollah down south, and help curb Shia incitement to the east.

Gulf War One I do admit was reasonable given Saddam's intransigence - he should have given the Kuwaitis a kicking and then gone back over the border.

But everything since has been a pocket lining exercise at the US taxpayers expense, and anyone who believes the WMD horseshit should PM me re the purchase of a bridge.

I'll say it again: When asked how the US knew Iraq had WMDs, the honest response should have been "because we've got all the receipts".

----------


## harrybarracuda

And let's put this Osama mystery to bed, as the US have decided to release a burial picture at last.

----------


## Dan

Is that the third or forth appearance of that photo on this thread?

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> And let's put this Osama mystery to bed, as the US have decided to release a burial picture at last.


"arry" for Allah's sake keep up mate that's three times that pics been posted here and "umbert" didn't think it was funny the first time although I did!  :Smile:

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## The Bold Rodney

> I have annotated my comments in Yellow above


Great stuuf but any chance you can shorten your posts in future?

You see I'm not sure I'll live long enough to read them all!  :Smile:

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## Humbert

It was a good exchange between Panda and MakingALife. Dueling PHDs.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> And let's put this Osama mystery to bed, as the US have decided to release a burial picture at last.
> 
> 
> "arry" for Allah's sake keep up mate that's three times that pics been posted here and "umbert" didn't think it was funny the first time although I did!


Apologies everyone. The post count in this thread is rising faster than my early morning boner.

 :Smile:

----------


## OhOh

> It aint where USA gets its oil from that counts, its what they pay for it that really matters.


It is *very* important for the the US that the currency of exchange remains the US$. The move to accepting the Euro in the past and the RMB in the future is the conflict now.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Apologies everyone. The post count in this thread is rising faster than my early morning boner


That's almost as funny as OBL getting "two shots and a splash of water" !  :Smile:

----------


## MakingALife

> Originally Posted by MakingALife
> 
> People can cloud this issue with as much posture and detail as they choose to level, but essentially the action was taken for the benefit of the citizens of IRAQ and for the increasing stability to the region.
> 
> 
> It wasn't- it was about oil. With the series of Iraq 'wikileaks', that is all but official now- specifically, the worlds largest undeveloped oil reserves in the western desert were a glittering prize, although as it ensued the coalition of the villains has had to share that with many more foreign oil companies than they had planned, and been led to believe by the Bush administration. As for stability in the region, it had the opposite effect by empowering Iran (which now has unprecedented influence in Iraq), which in turn makes the Sunni nations and Israel nervous. Domestically, Iraq was destabilised too, to state the bare minimum. Even now, infrastructure has not recovered to the level during the UN sanctions period, and substantial parts of the country still lack reliable electricity and running water. Life expectancy has plummeted.
> 
> Against this you have the allegation that Saddam was a despot- and he was, albeit ruling by the classic 'velvet glove, iron fist' principle. But Iraq was a secular state, with the highest standard of living and education in the Arab world, well developed infrastructure, and a high degree of social mobility and personal freedom- the limits of this however soon became apparent when it came to political dissent. 47% of Doctors were women, and a long serving Prime Minister under Saddam was a Christian. In this regard, the US led invasion sent Iraq back to the last century.
> 
> More concerning really was his military adventurism, specifically the invasions of Iran and Kuwait. We were his 'friend' for the invasion of Iran- in fact saved his arse when Iran started winning, and their troops were heading for Baghdad to depose him. We were not friends when he invaded Kuwait however, hence the first Gulf War, and the ensuing (and crippling) UN sanctions. If the deposing of Saddam is considered a 'Victory' in itself, then it was been the ultimate Pyrrhic victory. The more general attitude is that it was an expensive and bloody debacle.


Sabang,

Your post here is excellent, It covers a lot of bases very well.   Very concise and articulate.....

I was not aware IRAQ is currently  considered to have the largest known reserves in the region.  Or that Wiki leaks put out a lot of information related to that.  I'm going to have to browse that and get a better picture.

So is that correct that the Kurds occupy those areas where these undeveloped reserves exist ?.   The Kurds had talked a bit about becoming separatist..   With a lot of oil under their feet, would be a motivation behind Sadams actions against them.  If this is the case, it explains some of those behaviors of Sadam.

I concur that IRAQ has been set back developmentally from GW 2..   I am surprised about the poor power infrustruce,  because  I believe it was Wartsila partneredd with Bechtel, who were awarded a contract to install and connect a redicular number of gen sets to their Grid  (on the order of about  600 sets).  I wonder what happend to this contract ???

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> So is that correct that the Kurds occupy those areas where these undeveloped reserves exist ?. The Kurds had talked a bit about becoming separatist.. With a lot of oil under their feet, would be a motivation behind Sadams actions against them. If this is the case, it explains some of those behaviors of Sadam.


Won't happen if the Turks have a say in it! 

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/natural_resources/article674076.ece

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## Dan

> I was not aware IRAQ is currently  considered to have the largest known reserves in the region


Actually, he said largest undeveloped, which isn't quite the same thing (though the Saudi stated reserves are so obviously bogus that it's anyone's guess how much is really there.)

----------


## MakingALife

> Originally Posted by MakingALife
> 
>  To not see the complexity here is to admit one is living very naively within the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your point is well taken, and focuses on the  important question.   A reflection that attempts to see into the hearts and minds of those who set policies on a national and who interact in international realms,  And compare that to history's records.    History reveals the savagery that is active in the world.   Attempts at achieving good despite errors, needs to be seen for its good intentions,  and as well accountable for errors.  
Accountibility for errors is very different thant total condemnation for making errors.    

I appreciate your point of view weighed in here,  It gives a more pragmatic view of humankind and leadership to sift.

----------


## Panda

> It was a good exchange between Panda and MakingALife. Dueling PHDs.


No PHD here mate. I just keep informed by doing my own research and taking the mainstream media with a degree of scepticism.

MAL does raise some interesting and often valid points. He is very articulate and obviously quite knowledgeable in world affairs. I welcome his input here as genuine debate rather than the name calling and insults that is so common with some other posters. 

War is an emotive subject. People should not trust the mainstream media, or indeed the carefully tailored statements by governments that they report under circumstances where the stakes for ordinary people are so high. In these days of Internet its not too hard for people to do their own research in order find the facts and make an informed opinion rather than simply swallowing their governments propaganda and blindly supporting them. In a democracy the people are supposed to tell the governments what to do, -- through their elected representatives of course; -- not the other way around with governments telling the people what to think. Unfortunately, government representatives can often be bought, thus transferring the political power of our elected representatives into the hands of those with financial power. People need to be vigilant in order to keep our politicans honest.

----------


## HermantheGerman

> Against this you have the allegation that Saddam was a despot- and he was, albeit ruling by the classic 'velvet glove, iron fist' principle. But Iraq was a secular state, with the highest standard of living and education in the Arab world, well developed infrastructure, and a high degree of social mobility and personal freedom- the limits of this however soon became apparent when it came to political dissent. 47% of Doctors were women, and a long serving Prime Minister under Saddam was a Christian. In this regard, the US led invasion sent Iraq back to the last century.





> 


 
Sounds very familiar. Libya next !

----------


## koman

> In these days of Internet its not too hard for people to do their own research in order find the facts and make an informed opinion rather than simply swallowing their governments propaganda


Don't disagree but how do we know what is "fact".   The internet is jammed full of conflicting information from all kinds of sources; most of which are promoting some agenda on another.  It becomes very apparent after a while that the "facts" are what each of us choose to believe. 

 It's not hard to find situations where two or more  supposedly  "independent" sources writing about the same issue with totally conflicting "facts" depending on their particular view of how the world should be.  Most people will naturally tend to follow those sources that report versions of things that fit in with their preconceived ideas, rather than what is necessarily the "facts."

Then, there are the situations when the facts are clear and undisputed; but here on TD they will be disputed anyway and made part of yet another American plot... :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

Hmmm.

Robert Gates landed in Bahrain on 11th March for a meeting with King Hamad, the ruler, and flew straight out.

Days later a "State of National Safety" was invoked, and troops from Saudi and the UAE arrived to help put down the Shia rebellion.




> Then, there are the situations when the facts are clear and undisputed;  but here on TD they will be disputed anyway and made part of yet another  American plot...


Yeah, right.

 :Smile:

----------


## SiLeakHunt

Apparently 6 Irish soldiers went missing after dancing on his grave !

----------


## OhOh

Strange New Enemies in an Ever-Changing War

_"Strange New Enemies in an Ever-Changing War
By Bill Bonner

05/09/11 Beijing, China – Times have changed. When governments sent out hit squads to kill someone, they used to keep quiet about it. But this time, Obama called a national press conference to claim credit. His poll ratings rose.

Rarely has a killing been such a crowd pleaser. There was dancing in the streets. It recalled the happy mob that kicked around Louis 16th’s head or the crowd that spat upon Mussolini’s corpse. Americans were jubilant. The newspapers were universally joyful and upbeat. “Mission accomplished,” said the editorials.

Arms maker Berretta took out a full-page ad in the weekend USA Today to applaud the Navy SEALS who pulled the trigger. Beretta and other handgun makers typically apologize when their products are used to kill unarmed civilians. This time, they were using it to gain market share.

And feeling their oats, US officials decided to try to make it two for two, with a drone attack on a “terror suspect,” in Yemen. The radical cleric Anwar al-Awlaqi survived, reported the Hong Kong paper.

Asked where in the Constitution the federal government was given the right to murder people, Eric Holder, US Attorney General, replied that this was certainly not murder. And not an assassination either. This was war! Osama bin Laden was an enemy combatant. US forces mounted an operation to kill him, as they might target an opposing general. Fair and square.

But if Osama bin Laden were an enemy general, his was a strange army. How many divisions did he have? Where were his warships? His aircraft carriers? His submarines? Where were his tanks? And his trained legions? He had no army. No navy. No marines. No air force. Not even a few praetorians guarding his headquarters. He was almost alone. No Swiss guards, no home guard; for there was no homeland to guard. And not a single troop carrier, for there were no troops and nowhere to take them. He had no tanks. No fighter planes. No bombers. No artillery. In fact, his most effective weapon was the lowly box cutter.

A fanatic with a box cutter can be dangerous; but he is no Grande Armée…no Wehrmacht…no Japanese Imperial Army. He is not a worthy opponent for the Pentagon, in other words; for there is no glory in picking on someone who’s not your own size.

As the week moved on, glory turned to embarrassment. The terrorist was not armed. He didn’t use his wife as a human shield. He didn’t live in a mansion surrounded by armed guards. Instead, it began to look like the SEALS had gunned down a sick, broken old invalid.

But what an opportunity! Forget the messy court trials. Who knows how they might turn out…or what information they might reveal? The government spends a fortune trying to convict mobsters and drug pushers, for example. Why not just declare war on them, and send in hit squads? And now the SEC is laboring hard to convict a fund manager in the Galleon case. It would be so much simpler to label SEC violators ‘financial terrorists’ – and let drones take care of them.

But wait, we’re missing the biggest opportunity of all. Other countries have done it for years; why shouldn’t we? Instead of defeating political enemies at the polls, why not just say you are at war with them and take them out? Take Donald Trump, for example. Here at The Daily Reckoning, we are warming up to Mr. Trump. He is our kind of politician. Too rich to steal. Too dumb to lie. But he is surely a threat to the Republic. So why not call in a drone attack?

Why waste drones on Osama bin Laden? He posed no real threat to the government of the United States of America. Even in his own backyard, he was a loser. He was unable to take over a single woebegone, Muslim-drenched country in the Mid-East. There was never any question that he would be able to defeat the US.

Nor was he a substantial threat to the American people. For all his box cutters and suicidal followers, statistically – according to The Financial Times – he did less damage to Americans than accidents caused by wild deer. In the 10 years following the announcement of the War on Terror, as far as we know, he was not responsible for a single North American casualty. As a general, he was worse than any we ever heard of; even Sir Douglas Haig was not that bad.

Osama bin Laden didn’t pose a threat to the US or its people; instead, the danger he posed was more like the danger of an interest-only, low-doc, automatically reset mortgage with a teaser rate. Bin Laden, in an early video address, announced his strategy. He could sucker the US into spending an enormous amount of money to combat him. He would not try to defeat the US on the field of battle; instead, he would lure the giant into expenses it could not afford.

And lo, it has come to pass just as the bearded one forecast. According to The Financial Times, the US has spent $2 trillion on the war against terror…or about a million times more than Osama bin Laden spent."_

----------


## harrybarracuda

I understand the pikies raided the top floor of Harrods, looking for "Bed Linen".

----------


## Panda

> Originally Posted by Panda
> 
>  In these days of Internet its not too hard for people to do their own research in order find the facts and make an informed opinion rather than simply swallowing their governments propaganda
> 
> 
> Don't disagree but how do we know what is "fact". The internet is jammed full of conflicting information from all kinds of sources; most of which are promoting some agenda on another. It becomes very apparent after a while that the "facts" are what each of us choose to believe. 
> 
> It's not hard to find situations where two or more supposedly "independent" sources writing about the same issue with totally conflicting "facts" depending on their particular view of how the world should be. Most people will naturally tend to follow those sources that report versions of things that fit in with their preconceived ideas, rather than what is necessarily the "facts."
> 
> Then, there are the situations when the facts are clear and undisputed; but here on TD they will be disputed anyway and made part of yet another American plot...


You seem to be putting forward the concept that anyone who comes out with other than a pro-US  mindset after doing their own research either has a preconceived agenda or has been deceived by information on the Internet.

Not all people are so gullible. Some have the ability to research all angles and form an objective opinion. 

Just because that opinion does not conform to your own does not make it any less objective or valid.

----------


## robuzo

> I was not aware IRAQ is currently  considered to have the largest known reserves in the region
> 			
> 		
> 
> Actually, he said largest undeveloped, which isn't quite the same thing (though the *Saudi stated reserves are so obviously bogus that it's anyone's guess how much is really there*.)


That's got to be one of the biggest current open secrets.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by Dan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				I was not aware IRAQ is currently  considered to have the largest known reserves in the region
> ...


Recoverable reserves change all the time anyway, especially as new technology evolves to allow recovery of oil previously unobtainable.

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Dan
> ...


It was already an open secret before Wikileaks http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_820641.html

----------


## harrybarracuda

There's still an awful lot of undiscovered country in the GCC.

----------


## Panda

> Strange New Enemies in an Ever-Changing War
> 
> _"Strange New Enemies in an Ever-Changing War_
> _By Bill Bonner_
> 
> _05/09/11 Beijing, China  Times have changed. When governments sent out hit squads to kill someone, they used to keep quiet about it. But this time, Obama called a national press conference to claim credit. His poll ratings rose._
> 
> _Rarely has a killing been such a crowd pleaser. There was dancing in the streets. It recalled the happy mob that kicked around Louis 16ths head or the crowd that spat upon Mussolinis corpse. Americans were jubilant. The newspapers were universally joyful and upbeat. Mission accomplished, said the editorials._
> 
> ...


Many times more people die in USA due to allergic reactions to bee stings than they do from terrorist attacks.

You got to wonder if there is not a hidden agenda behind the US governments promotion of hysteria about terrorism.

And then you have to ask the question is the US governments response to the threat of terrorism disproportionate  in relation to taking away personal liberties and freedoms compared to other threats to the populace such as attacks by wild deer or bees?

As the US economy goes into decline under the unsustainable financial policies of their government there is certain to be a degree of civil revolt at some point. 

One has to ask the question of whether these increasing security precautions are to combat terrorism or in preparation  to combat a potential civil uprising sometime down the line? This scenario is being put forward by some Americans now. Alex Jones among the most vocal of these. And though he may be regarded as a conspiracy theorist by many, his allegations do bear some serious consideration.

But conspiracy theories aside, I guess what the bottom line comes down to ultimately is ;-- how much personal liberties are Americans prepared to give up for cheap gasoline?

----------


## koman

> Just because that opinion does not conform to your own does not make it any less objective or valid.


Exactly... :Smile:   but this seems to be completely ignored by all the left wing, anti-western thinkers (I use the term loosely)  who can not even attempt to see the world any way other than through some kind of anti-American filter, and  then accuse anyone who does not agree with their view of things, of being gullible.  The same thing can be said of the right wing of course....it's just that they are more polite and reasonable about it.. :Smile:

----------


## sabang

> I was not aware IRAQ is currently considered to have the largest known reserves in the region.


Undeveloped reserves. Actually the Western desert is a part of the Sunni region of Iraq- the vast majority of existing extraction is in the Shiite south & Kurdish north. Won't labor the point in a thread about OBL, but certainly there was no shortage of 'salesmanship' from the Bush admin to the energy community in the lead up to the invasion. 'Public consumption' tended to harp more about despotic Saddam, & of course 'freedom and democracy'. From April 2007-

_Last week a Colorado energy consultancy firm, IHS, stunned some of Iraq's politicians and oil engineers by declaring that the country's oil reserves were about 215 billion barrels  about double the estimates that have held for Iraq for years. That would make Iraq a giant oil power, second only to Saudi Arabia. If the estimates prove true, Iraq's potential would outstrip its other neighbor Iran, which sits atop about 136 billion barrels of oil. The IHS engineers examined 438 undrilled fields and used new technology to recalculate old reservoirs.

"Iraq is probably one of the last remaining giant oil places yet to be tapped by the international community," says Lothian of Wood Mackenzie. "There will be huge competition among companies to go into Iraq once the law is enacted and security is established."_

Read more: Iraqi Oil: More Plentiful Than Thought - TIME

----------


## Panda

> Recoverable reserves change all the time anyway, especially as new technology evolves to allow recovery of oil previously unobtainable.


There's plenty of oil in the world to keep us all going for at least another 100 years or more.

Critical points though are cost of recovery and the quality of the product.

Saudi Arabia has the best supply of cheap to recover and good quality oil in the world at the moment. But their reserves are fast running out. 10 to 30 years supply left by most estimates, but the Saudis wont allow an independent audit of their reserves. So we dont know for sure what they have got. Next in line is Iraq with known huge reserves of the cheap to recover good stuff largely as yet unexploited. And closely followed by Iran. No other countries even come close to these two as far as quality, quantity and cost of extraction. Quality, quantity and cost of extraction equates to the price of gasoline at the pumps for the rest of the world. Hence the USAs interest in attaining friendly governments in these two countries in the not too distant future similar to the relationship they currently have with the Saudi royal dictators.

The world could produce enough gasoline from various sources to supply its needs even without Saudi Arabia, Iraq or Iran. But the thing is that we would be paying $10 to $20 a gallon for it at the pumps. Its not a supply issue for the long term. You can make oil out of coal. Just very expensive to do so based on current oil prices. And USA has plenty of coal. Its more about cost. Currently we rely on Saudi Arabia to keep the taps turned up to meet demand and keep the price reasonable. When the Saudi reserves are finished in a few years it will be Iraq and Iran we will be relying on to keep up supply and keep prices down.

Now you know why Bush was giving the Saudi king a big kiss on the lips. I dont believe he put the tongue in though.

----------


## mikediver

As to the electric power infrastructure in Iraq, the numbers posted recently show that power production capacity (and actual generation) exceed any pre-GW2 level ever reached.  However, as the Iraqi economy recovers the demand has skyrocketed.

----------


## mikediver

I do agree that American hegemony will decline. This is the inevitable way of history. Every Primary Player on the world stage has eventually stepped down. The cost of staying on top indefinitely is just too high for any country to bear. So, what comes next? Most of those that spout hate at the US are doing so out of bitterness and resentment that their time in the sun was over after WWII. A unique set of circumstances put the US as the economic power house of the world. Get over it, it too shall pass. 

The use of the US dollar as a world reserve currency has not been a universal benefit to US citizens. I for one will be glad to see it lose that status. As the world's the reserve currency, the cost of our goods went up and up. Hence our manufacturing jobs all went overseas. Lots of workers were displaced with, as stated above, very little social safety net. The number of jobs available that would pay enough to support a family went down. 

Now, as the world shifts away from the dollar, the US manufacturing base is making at least a small come back. The WSJ front page yesterday showed the first increase in US manufacturing employment in over 30 years. These are the jobs that can keep a family out of poverty. In the same WSJ front page they discussed the wage inflation going on in China, and that China is running out of cheap labor to compete in the world market for low wage manufacturing. This too is inevitable. The world will be increasingly flat. Change is inevitable (except from a vending machine). 

So, we are back to what will take the place of American hegemony? I really think that China as the dominant power is likely, and that you all will look back on the American hegemony with fondness and longing. These will be the good old days. Good luck to us all when the brutal, and totally racist, people running China (now and for the foreseeable future) are in charge of the world stage. Europeans will not be treated any better, and probably much worse. The Chinesse care little about Europe. At least the US has a shared culture, history, and ethnic background. When the Asians take over they will not give a fig about Europe, or the west.

----------


## MakingALife

[quote=Panda;1752914]


> Whew. And I thought my post was a bit long. A lot of stuff to digest there. 
> So much to respond to, so I will keep it to a few simple headings.
> 
> 1. Its an oft trotted out excuse/myth that since USA imports only a small percentage of its oil from the Middle East, their military interest in the area is not related to economics or oil.
> 
> The Middle East is by far the largest producer of "cheap to recover and high quality" oil. Saudi Arabia being the biggest player at the moment as head of OPEC, but with Iraq and Iran set to take over that role as the Saudi reserves become depleted. It is no coincidence that USA invaded Iraq with the intent of creating regime change and has the same stated aim for Iran.
> 
> It is not the source of USAs oil imports that is in question. It is the world price that USA would have to pay for its imports if Middle East production was to decline. Hence the reason why USA was pleading with their Saudi friends to turn up production during the recent oil price spike. As the Saudi reserves deplete, Iraq and Iran with their second and third largest in the world reserves of cheap to recover and good quality oil will come to be in the drivers seat controlling the world price of oil that USA will be forced to pay. Its not really a question of supply for USA, very much more a question of price. USA needs friendly and pliable governments in those key countries to manage the world price.
> 
> ...


Good post interesting comments. Will try to briefly reply to your nunbered points.
1.  The US imports 9 to 10 % of her total daily crude oil consumption from the PG region.  That is a small percentage of US crude consumption.  This challenges your earlier assertion that an oil interruption would hamstring the US energy sector, because of diminished supplies.   Now you state its a price issue, not a supply issue.  So you now believe the US controls oil prices (through various actions).  I dont buy this.  

Price is set by the relationship between the demand curve and the supply curve.  Reviewing the top 207 crude oil consumers,  US  ranks first at 19% of world consumption.  Only half is imported, so at best the US consumes 9% the available crude bought on the open market.   A 9 % player cannot alter demand curves enough to manipulate commodity pricing.   The supply side of the curve is set by OPEC 12 members and with voluntary cooperation of other producers - to meet world demands and hold a target price that sustains consumption levels.   Its fantasy to believe the US can manipulate OPEC production targets to achieve a goal of cheap oil.   The world doesnt work that way.  US influence by any tactics can achieve that.  

IF the US had that power, They should do something to reduce oil pricing below is triple digit threshold, when typical production cost range from  $2 to $20 per barrel.   The cheap oil days are over,  the demand curve is significantly higher now than 20 years ago, one can park gunboats all over the PG and this fact is not going to change.   Do you think this is not well understood by the US ?

2. Gold reserves dont support the dollars price, Its people willingness to invest in treasuries, and hold US currencie that underpins the value of the dollar.

3.  The US has been a historical safe haven during crisis style events.  Until that trend is broken, its not a wise one to bet against.   The Oil shock scenerio batted around represents such a crisis event.  In a economic down turn, all economies that depend on an export model suffer more that those with a balanced economic model.  That is another historical trend.  Calling the bust out off the cliff fall of the US dollar, by an oil shock - is equivalent demanding two historical trends becoming vaporized, by and event that would not impact the US as much as it would the rest of the world -  Is grabbing at straws.   Better to see one or both trends broken, before you condemn the US to suffer a grave impact from an oil shock.

4.  You are correct, even at $ 4 per gallon US gasoline prices are half the price of European counterparts.   I stand corrected.

No question there are challenges on the landscape for all developed economies US and EU.   The US has significant issues that need to be worked out.   The world is soon to pass "Peak Oil" production, oil will never become cheaper by military threats, political deals, or favoritism.   Long term supply side curve changes are impossible, and the shape of the supply curve is declining.   Cheaper oil pricing can only be achieved by changing the demand curve.  That requires conservation measures, life style changes,  reshufflingg the energy matrix to increased use of renewables.   This is the only bright side of the picture, the rest of you analysis of how the US controls OIL pricing - now and in the future... Is mostly fantasy pronouncements you make. 

Dont forget  OPEC looks out for OPEC - Just as you say CANADA looks out for CANADA as an energy exporter.   Shaping the demand side of the curve is difficult, because of challenges, such as the rapid industrialization taking place in China over the last decade, a trend that will likely continue.   So its pretty fair to say - no one can control or influence low oil pricing.   Without such a deliverable mechanism your predatory view of the US intentions to act in a way that fosters cheap oil falls on its face.

----------


## MakingALife

> Originally Posted by Humbert
> 
> 
> It was a good exchange between Panda and MakingALife. Dueling PHDs.
> 
> 
> No PHD here mate. I just keep informed by doing my own research and taking the mainstream media with a degree of scepticism.
> 
> War is an emotive subject. People should not trust the mainstream media, or indeed the carefully tailored statements by governments that they report under circumstances where the stakes for ordinary people are so high. In these days of Internet its not too hard for people to do their own research in order find the facts and make an informed opinion rather than simply swallowing their governments propaganda and blindly supporting them. In a democracy the people are supposed to tell the governments what to do, -- through their elected representatives of course; -- not the other way around with governments telling the people what to think. Unfortunately, government representatives can often be bought, thus transferring the political power of our elected representatives into the hands of those with financial power. People need to be vigilant in order to keep our politicans honest.


Very well said Panda, right on the money.  "Caveat emptor" -  Let the buyer beware.  It applys well too these modern times. 

 Like you I try to discriminate information, and like many here its only part time avocation at best.  No PHD her either...  Ive traveled to much of the world and hammered out a profession in engineering.  It served me well and connected me with many people in those travels.  There is always give and take in any discussion, holding an open mind and a willingness to learn - leaves the door always open to build a better understand and a clearer model of how the world works.   Discussing the many things that connect to OBL demise and his place and impact on the world touches many topics, all important in their own right.
These topics are good stuff to reflect upon.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> These topics are good stuff to reflect upon.


Simpy put depsite everyones experiences and emotinal feeelings in the heat of the moment ...is the world better off with or without OBN or not ? 

Of course we can speculate the future but what about our our feelings now? 

I would like to  know because personally I haven't missed missed him for one second! :Smile:

----------


## dirtydog

> For all his box cutters and suicidal followers, statistically  according to The Financial Times  he did less damage to Americans than accidents caused by wild deer.


Those wild deer are bastards, I say kill them all, send in the seals..

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> Yes the Arab guy is confirmed dead.


by whom?

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> Originally Posted by OhOh
> 
> For all his box cutters and suicidal followers, statistically  according to The Financial Times  he did less damage to Americans than accidents caused by wild deer.
> 
> 
> Those wild deer are bastards, I say kill them all, send in the seals..


Did one stick its antlers through your radiator after a night owt?

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Did one stick its antlers through your radiator after a night owt?


#

It mujst be his time of the year for Ruttting, if its not? personally I think he's emotionally disturbed!  :Confused:

----------


## OhOh

> Did one stick its antlers through your radiator after a night owt?


No, It did take out a headlight and the bumper though.

----------


## genghis61

*Bin Laden's son denounces killing, sea burial*
11/05/2011


SON OF: Omar bin Laden, son of Osama bin Laden.

*A statement purporting to come from a son of Osama bin Laden denounced the al Qaeda leader's killing as "criminal" and said his burial at sea had humiliated the family, an online monitoring service said.*

The statement, attributed to Omar bin Laden, bin Laden's fourth eldest son, said the al Qaeda chief's children reserved the right to take legal action in the United States and internationally to "determine the true fate of our vanished father," the SITE Intelligence Group said.

There was no independent confirmation of the authenticity of the letter, published on the website of Islamist ideologue Abu Walid al-Masri, although several specialists on militant propaganda said the text appeared genuine.

Omar bin Laden, who has been based in the Gulf in recent years, did not immediately respond to emailed and telephoned requests for comment.

The letter said, in part: 

"We hold the American President (Barack) Obama legally responsible to clarify the fate of our father, Osama bin Laden, for it is unacceptable, humanely and religiously, to dispose of a person with such importance and status among his people, by throwing his body into the sea in that way, which demeans and humiliates his family and his supporters and which challenges religious provisions and feelings of hundreds of millions of Muslims."
The letter said the US administration had offered no proof to back up its account of the mission. It alleged the goal of raid had been to kill and not arrest, adding that afterwards the American commandos had "rushed to dispose of the body."

Some Muslims have misgivings about how US forces killed bin Laden in a raid in Pakistan on May 2 and disposed of his body in the ocean.

Questions have multiplied since the White House said the al Qaeda leader was unarmed when US helicopter-borne commandos raided the villa where he was hiding in the city of Abbottabad.

Bin Laden's swift burial at sea, in what many Muslims say was a violation of Islamic custom, has also stirred anger.

- Reuters

----------


## Butterfly

OBL was a religious leader, not a terrorist

----------


## Butterfly

> Bin Laden's swift burial at sea, in what many Muslims say was a violation of Islamic custom, has also stirred anger


I think it was another of those US messages to say "fuck you" to all muslims, knowing full well it will pissed them off

----------


## Carrabow

> *Bin Laden's son denounces killing, sea burial*
> 11/05/2011
> *A statement purporting to come from a son of Osama bin Laden denounced the al Qaeda leader's killing as "criminal" and said his burial at sea had humiliated the family, an online monitoring service said.*
> 
> The statement, attributed to Omar bin Laden, bin Laden's fourth eldest son, said the al Qaeda chief's children reserved the right to take legal action in the United States and internationally to "determine the true fate of our vanished father," the SITE Intelligence Group said.
> 
> 
> The letter said, in part: 
> "We hold the American President (Barack) Obama legally responsible to clarify the fate of our father, Osama bin Laden, for it is unacceptable, humanely and religiously, to dispose of a person with such importance and status among his people, by throwing his body into the sea in that way, which demeans and humiliates his family and his supporters and which challenges religious provisions and feelings of hundreds of millions of Muslims."- Reuters


 
Wow,

If you asked the victims of 9/11 they really could care less what this guy thinks. His father committed atrocities in the name of what? So how does it challenge their provisions?

----------


## Cujo

> OBL was a religious leader, not a terrorist


Utter nonsense.
Where do you come up with this crap?

----------


## Hampsha

Osama bin Laden seems to live on on the net. TD is helping with this by this thread getting more and more posts. Why not start a new thread entitled something without OBL's name.

----------


## Buksida

[quote=Carrabow;1753647]


> Wow,
> 
> If you asked the victims of 9/11 they really could care less what this guy thinks. His father committed atrocities in the name of what? So how does it challenge their provisions?


We have been repeatedly told that OBL was the mastermind behind 9/11, but has it been proven?

Now there's the story about OBL, being killed and buried at sea by seals.

Maybe it's true, it would be good to see some evidence. Beleiving things simple becuase govts and the media keep repeating them is very dangerous.

----------


## Butterfly

yes, OBL is alive and will be among us, like Jesus is still today

----------


## koman

[quote=MakingALife;1753464]


> Originally Posted by MakingALife
> 
> 
>  
> Whew. And I thought my post was a bit long. A lot of stuff to digest there. 
> So much to respond to, so I will keep it to a few simple headings.
> 
> 1. Its an oft trotted out excuse/myth that since USA imports only a small percentage of its oil from the Middle East, their military interest in the area is not related to economics or oil.
> 
> ...


Excellent overview of the oil supply/pricing situation. Of course the US can not control the world oil price and only those who take it upon themselves to blame the Americans for everything insist that they do.  (this has already been explained very well  by MAL in the above text)

Gas at the pump in the UK and EU has_ always_ been much higher than in the US because the governments of those countries tax it to death to help pay for their social programs.  If you look at the oil market prices you will see that the London and New York prices are pretty close (within about 5% as a rule) but the pump prices are 200% of US pump prices.

The US will reduce demand for imported oil over the next 5-10 years and may even eliminate it completely in 20.  The world wide demand and resulting supply and price issues have finally motivated America to invest heavily in electric and hybrid vehicles.  Some estimates show as much as 50% of all vehicles will be hybrid or fully electric by 2020.   

Europe and the UK are far more likely to suffer from the future oil supply/price spikes.  They don't have many options.  The US has many,  and as always they will exercise those options that are in their best interests.

Even china is going to be seriously effected if oil were to hit say $300 a barrel and again they don't have a lot of options.  Together with the forced revaluation of their currency, their looming water shortages, and internal divisions and social upheaval, their soaring economy could bust just like any other.

Predicting the future realignment of the world order may seem clear to some people, but it was not that long ago that Japan was earmarked to be the  dominant economy in the 21st century.

----------


## Butterfly

> Maybe it's true, it would be good to see some evidence. Beleiving things simple becuase govts and the media keep repeating them is very dangerous.


you are dealing with American idiots and fools, so they will believe anything they are being fed, like goose

can't blame the US government really, blame the American public for being so stupid

----------


## Carrabow

[quote=Buksida;1753680]


> Originally Posted by genghis61
> 
> 
> Wow,
> 
> If you asked the victims of 9/11 they really could care less what this guy thinks. His father committed atrocities in the name of what? So how does it challenge their provisions?
> 
> 
> We have been repeatedly told that OBL was the mastermind behind 9/11, but has it been proven?
> ...


 
Evidence? He himself admitted to it on several video's, rubbed our noses in it and promised future attacks.  :Confused:

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by Buksida
> 
> Maybe it's true, it would be good to see some evidence. Beleiving things simple becuase govts and the media keep repeating them is very dangerous.
> 
> 
> you are dealing with American idiots and fools, so they will believe anything they are being fed, like goose
> 
> can't blame the US government really, blame the American public for being so stupid


  Butters, your going to need this again...

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by *OhOh* 
> _For  all his box cutters and suicidal followers, statistically  according  to The Financial Times  he did less damage to Americans than accidents  caused by wild deer._


I think the financial times is taking the piss.

----------


## Buksida

[quote=Carrabow;1753687]


> Originally Posted by Carrabow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by genghis61
> ...


People make false confessions all the time, considering that extremist cheered the attacks, he had a lot to gain by claiming responsibility.


 "To this day, the FBI page states: 			"Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings 			of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, 			Kenya. These attacks killed over 200 people. In addition, Bin Laden is a 			suspect in other terrorist attacks throughout the world." 


			In June 2006, when asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on the FBI's web 			page, Rex Tomb, the FBI's Chief of Investigative Publicity, is reported to 			have said, 			"The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden's Most Wanted page 			is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11."

----------


## Humbert

> Originally Posted by *OhOh* 
> _For all his box cutters and suicidal followers, statistically  according to The Financial Times  he did less damage to Americans than accidents caused by wild deer._
> 
> 
> I think the financial times is taking the piss.


It really is an idiotic comparison. Old age kills a lot of people too but it has no relevance to deaths caused by terrorism. Are we to simply throw up our arms and say that terrorism is just a naturally occuring phenomenon?

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## Buksida

> Originally Posted by Koojo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				                     Originally Posted by *OhOh* 
> ...


It helps put it in perspective, the fear generated by terrorism has been out of proportion and been used by govts. for nasty shit.

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## Carrabow

[quote=Buksida;1753699]


> Originally Posted by Buksida
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Carrabow
> ...


 
From what you have presented:

Whoops... we made a mistake! Damn, I hate when we do that. 

Bummer

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by Humbert
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Koojo
> ...


I dunno what the muzzies are worried about then, more Muslims die every  year from car accidents than from death by drone or navy seal attack, in fact deaths by drone or navy seal attack are negligible by comparison, they should worry about road and vehicle safety first.
Wish those whining muzzies would keep things in perspective.

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## Butterfly

it does help to put things in perspective and how the terrorism hysteria is being played

in that regard, terrorism works as advertised, it creates fear, and that's all you need, not necessarily the body count

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## genghis61

> "To this day, the FBI page states: "Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. These attacks killed over 200 people. In addition, Bin Laden is a suspect in other terrorist attacks throughout the world."


also note from FBI Top Ten

*USAMA BIN LADEN
He is left-handed and walks with a cane
Height: 6' 4" to 6' 6"
Build:	Thin
Occupation: Unknown
*

it's ok, we can stop looking now.

----------


## Butterfly

> He is left-handed and walks with a cane


was he holding his AK47 with his right hand or left hand when he was assaulted by the seals ? 

show us the video, and we will know if it's really him

----------


## Thaihome

> People make false confessions all the time, considering that extremist cheered the attacks, he had a lot to gain by claiming responsibility.
> 
> 
> "To this day, the FBI page states: "Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. These attacks killed over 200 people. In addition, Bin Laden is a suspect in other terrorist attacks throughout the world." 
> 
> 
> In June 2006, when asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on the FBI's web page, Rex Tomb, the FBI's Chief of Investigative Publicity, is reported to have said, "The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden's Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11."


The usual 9/11 conspiracy theorists half truths. 

_Connecting bin Laden to 9-11_

_In 2006 the Muckraker Report published a story quoting an FBI official saying there was "no hard evidence connecting bin Laden to 9/11"._
__
_Conclusion_
_At the core of Ed Haas original piece is Rex Tomb's comment that there's "no hard evidence connecting bin Laden to 9/11". As this lacks clarity - there's no explanation of what "hard evidence" means - and the FBI now say it "does not accurately explain the situation", we see little reason for it to overturn other public statements by the FBI, where they make it clear that they believe evidence linking al Qaeda to the attacks is "clear and irrefutable."_ 

_Elsewhere there's little here but rhetoric and speculation. The fact that bin Laden hasn't been indicted for 9/11 is often taken as some sign of doubt of his guilt, for example, but as we've seen, he's not been indicted for the USS Cole bombing, either, despite being named as a co-conspirator in an indictment of others. Not being personally indicted for a crime isn't always an indication that the authorities think you may be innocent._ 

_And the focus on bin Laden can't conceal the fact that there's plenty of evidence indicating al Qaeda's responsibility for the attacks, including the exhibits in the Moussaoui trial, and their own multiple admissions. We may get more when Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and others face trial, but even without that there's more than enough to connect al Qaeda, and bin Laden, to 9-11._

----------


## Carrabow

Well said and quoted!

----------


## Buksida

> The usual 9/11 conspiracy theorists half truths.


The conspiracy theorists seem reserve their skepticism for official explanations, I'm not one of them.

What I'm saying is that we should not accept seals killed OBL or that he masterminded 9/11 just because governments and media tell us so.

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## koman

[quote=Carrabow;1753687]


> Originally Posted by Carrabow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by genghis61
> ...


Come on Carrabow, what kind of evidence is that?   FFS we don't even have real evidence that Hitler ordered the invasion of the Soviet Union back in 1941.  We have no videos, no independent reporters were present when the orders were given.  Actually it would have been pretty hard to pin down Adolph on anything nasty.  Almost impossible to pin down Stalin on the mass executions of Russians---he was in his office most of the time and could not possibly have done it himself.  The burden of proof is very high on TD.... :Smile: 

I'm sure lessons have been learned.  Next time they send in the SEALs or any other outfit to top somebody, I'm sure they will invite the press corps and Amnesty International observers along, just to be sure that they can provide enough proof.

I know Butters would say they were all part of the plot, but we have to keep trying... :rofl:

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## The Bold Rodney

> I'm sure lessons have been learned. Next time they send in the SEALs or any other outfit to top somebody, I'm sure they will invite the press corps and Amnesty International observers along, just to be sure that they can provide enough proof.


Strange... but that thought hadn't actually crossed my mind and maybe add one professional film crew from Hollywood? 

What a spiffing good idea just to pacify all the doubting "liboturds" "Yank Bashers" "Muzzie Sympathisers" at the same time.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Buksida

To be honest I haven't really followed the reported death. When I first heard seals had dumped his body in the sea I thought it was a joke. I've read they've matched his DNA, seen pics of a crashed helicopter. 

Are the offering any evidence?

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## Tom Sawyer

> Originally Posted by Thaihome
> 
> 
>  
> The usual 9/11 conspiracy theorists half truths. 
> 
> 
> 
> The conspiracy theorists seem reserve their skepticism for official explanations, I'm not one of them.
> ...


Truth has been so distorted and twisted now that to even question any part of the "official" narrative relating to 9/11 or the "war on terror" means you are labled as a "conspiracy nut" and even a traitor!

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## The Bold Rodney

> Truth has been so distorted and twisted now that to even question any part of the "official" narrative relating to 9/11 or the "war on terror" means you are labled as a "conspiracy nut" and even a traitor!


I wouldn't disagree with you but maybe the wild accusations and vivid speculation by many "9/11 conspiracy nuts" hasn't helped matters?

As far as OBL's concerned I think Obama should release photographic proof of his death, not for morbid reasons but to silence the disbelievers and to hell with the muzzies that might upset!  

To date the whole matter has been badly handled from day one with confusing to outright misleading statements being made and that's neither professional or acceptable.

----------


## Buksida

> Originally Posted by Buksida
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Thaihome
> ...


The most widely acclaimed doco about 9/11 and terrorism is the BBC's The Power of Nightmares. It deals with historical facts comparing the rise of neo cons with Islamic fundamentalists.

Black listed in the US, no network will touch it. No crazy conspiracy theory is offered, which is what scares the neo cons so much.

----------


## Buksida

> Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer
> 
> Truth has been so distorted and twisted now that to even question any part of the "official" narrative relating to 9/11 or the "war on terror" means you are labled as a "conspiracy nut" and even a traitor!
> 
> 
> I wouldn't disagree with you but maybe the wild accusations and vivid speculation by many "9/11 conspiracy nuts" hasn't helped matters?


I would say the opposite, the crazy theories have made it easy to call anyone who questions anything about 9/11 or the WOR as a 'conspiracy nut'.




> As far as OBL's concerned I think Obama should release photographic proof of his death, not for morbid reasons but to silence the disbelievers and to hell with the muzzies that might upset!


The would be a good idea, they've released photos of others they've killed.




> To date the whole matter has been badly handled from day one with confusing to outright misleading statements being made and that's neither professional or acceptable.


Which is why I'm asking about things. I just don't believe seals can shoot people.

----------


## Takeovers

> What I'm saying is that we should not accept seals killed OBL or that he masterminded 9/11 just because governments and media tell us so.


That makes it quite difficult to form an opinion. Aside from the official version we have only crazy conspiracy theories.

I look at the official pronouncements and ask myself are they plausible?  They are because the risk of proof coming up otherwise is too high. And again: Al Qaeda has confirmed it, so why should one expect it to be wrong?

----------


## Takeovers

> I just don't believe seals can shoot people.


Agree.



No fingers to pull the trigger. :Smile:

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Buksida
> ...


Well by God if it's on the BBC, that's good enough for me.  The  BBC would never tamper with "historical facts"....or spin current facts just to make an attention grabbing documentary any more that the FOX network would.... :Smile:  

 No wonder so may Brits have such a distorted view of what American is really like.  I'm sure it was well made though. The BBC is quite well funded by the state. I think being anti-conservative,  and/or anti-American is a prerequisite for employment there.   BBC  "Better Broadcasting for Commies"... :rofl: 

PS and that black guy who does the weather for the world service is such a poof... :rofl:

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## Buksida

[quote=Takeovers;1753875]


> What I'm saying is that we should not accept seals killed OBL or that he masterminded 9/11 just because governments and media tell us so.





> That makes it quite difficult to form an opinion. Aside from the official version we have only crazy conspiracy theories.


Forming an opinion when no evidence is offered isn't rational.

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## Buksida

So did the just dump the body?




> Originally Posted by Buksida
> 
> I just don't believe seals can shoot people.
> 
> 
> Agree.
> 
> 
> 
> No fingers to pull the trigger.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> The BBC is quite well funded by the state. I think being anti-conservative,  and/or anti-American is a prerequisite for employment there.   BBC  "Better Broadcasting for Commies"...


Actually here in the sandpit it is colloquially referred to as the "Bombay Broadcasting Corporation".

----------


## Cujo

> Actually here in the sandpit it is colloquially referred to as the "Bombay Broadcasting Corporation".


So where exactly is 'here in the sandpit'?

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## The Bold Rodney

> I would say the opposite, the crazy theories have made it easy to call anyone who questions anything about 9/11 or the WOR as a 'conspiracy nut'.


Errrr....that's what I meant by my post maybe I didn't write it clearly enough?

The basic problem (as I see it) is that politicians from all walks of life haven't set honest examples to their electorate and many people simply distrust their politicians. 

The US poltical system has always been driven by money, how many poor Congressmen or for that matter Presidents have ever been elected? and the UK has followed the US model in that and many matters not just politics.

We sneer at corruption here and scoff at the double dealing when our governments do and have done the same sometimes on a much grander scale. 

The International Corporates are corrupt the Politics / Banking & Financial system is corrupt and all these are linked together often by greed and or nepotism, is it any wonder so many people are sick of reading and seeing what's happening around the world?  

Saying all that I can't see any clear answer as to how to improve the current situation. The BBC's "Power of Nightmares" has been quoted, the BBC is far from neutral it's been run and infiltrated by left wing liboturds from top to bottom for years and it's certainly not impartial and to be honest I wouldn't trust the BBC any more than I would Tony Blair or Gordon the Moron! 

Maybe there is an answer, maybe it's a limited "Neuclear War" I sincerely hope not, but having uneducated, unstable, inept and corrupt goverments with neuclear weapons and I refer specifically to Pakistan doesn't bode well for anyone let alone the future of our world! 

They (Pakistani Intelligence) aided and facilitated the Mumbai terror attacks and they've got away with that thanks to help from the US government dealing with India. 

On the other hand they've helped terrorists with safe haven from Afghanistan, it's fucked up because their government doesn't have full control over their military structure, another pseudo democracy at its best!

Much as I don't like Pakistani standards I understand that unfortunately for the rest of the world (not just America) we need them on side and not against the West! I'd lke to see a slowdown of financial aid to Pakistan or better control over how its spent, maybe that might make their politicians think harder about who their friends really are or at least who butters their bread for them?

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## The Bold Rodney

> No wonder so may Brits have such a distorted view of what American is really like. I'm sure it was well made though. The BBC is quite well funded by the state. I think being anti-conservative, and/or anti-American is a prerequisite for employment there. BBC "Better Broadcasting for Commies"...


No distorted views here matey...ribbons around old oak trees, flag waving, cheer leaders, apple pie, red necks, the Waltons you see I'm well informed re the land of the free!  :rofl: 

However I have to say the "Better Broadcasting for Commies" is so fucking true!  :St George:

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> So where exactly is 'here in the sandpit'?


"arry" don't tell him "arry" he might be an assassin "arry"  :Confused:

----------


## MakingALife

> Originally Posted by Panda
> 
> It aint where USA gets its oil from that counts, its what they pay for it that really matters.
> 
> 
> It is *very* important for the the US that the currency of exchange remains the US$. The move to accepting the Euro in the past and the RMB in the future is the conflict now.


Indeed. 

However - Its not clear if the strength of the EU political union will remain strong and focused enough to maintain their monetary union.  EU members own national interests and level of fiscal responsibility isnt equally distrubuted across that union.  How does one engender former competitors to pull together selflessly ?  The EURO will remain weak, until its clear all EU members are willing to sacrifice and support while weaker members get their fiscal house in order.   They are working hard to diffuse the contagion flairing in their midst.   But the mindset of living beyond ones means, is a cancer that has washed up on their shores. The chemo the pass out now may well cure them and make them stronger in the future.  But there are no guarantees, and the recover is yet to run its full course.   

The RMB is an option, based on the steady emerging high industrial growth.  As an economy China remains export driven - which is still a weak model.   They have the advantage of state structures, to prevent rabid unrestrained capitalism to disembowel national interest in favor of pure capitalist pursuits - So there is some balance there.  I spent three months there in 07 and 1 mont there in 08.  The evidence of a push to stimulate internal consumption and broaden their demand side was pretty obvious.    

That said China remains a large experiment, because of the rapid leap frogging of learning curve and depth of industrialization, while trying to lift all boats in the same process is a very tall order.   The picture of a good life and open door prosperity is there in the mindset of most rising chineese with the gray matter to act with ambition.  Its hard to temper the response to disappointment,  when the state and industry can not deliver that rising living standard in spades.   Prosperity and open freedom are like a drugs, to those who dont fully possess them.  A taste delivers exaltation, high experience, and meet needs on many levels.   The internet and China's own push to move consumption ahead only stoke those desires. China will be prone to the rants of many if this upward future comes with too much delay or set back.    

They have the state mechanisms as well,  to restrain those who lose patience.  Chinese business and entrepreneurs as well are quick to recognize politics and buying influence is their own short cut pathways to moving their own ventures forward.   So what shapes developments and progress is that balance between state objectives and private sector strategy.  The longer success rolls  forward the greater will be the influence of private strategies in their business sector - which will always place profit above all else. 

And for the most part China is delivering promise to her people.  The last Olympics was true coming out party for their National consciousness to take the world stage.   But there are a lot of growing pains, and it is critical they continue to deliver on that promise of expanding prosperity.  The people will expect nothing less.   Most of their state structural institutions and control mechanisms are still struggling to adapt to these changes on their landscape.    To their credit they see with vision some of the errors to be avoided

These interplays still make the RMB risky in terms of stability, because its buffered to the back of the economic experiment and socio-economic change ongoing there.   There is class tensions between rural and urban segments.  There are tensions between coastal economic and political power and internal cities left out of that track. China must balance all these things to preserve the social fabric and push growth and expanding prosperity ahead.   As I have said - very tall orders, and staking a currency on the back of that challenge remains risky.  

In truth, a new blended international currency, pinned to a basket valuation of the nations that encompass the value producers (Industrial and energy producers), and based upon free and open convertible between it an national currencies is a logical construct.   It offer's benefits, with lower risks.   Maintaining existing currencies and setting up an international currency -  Gives every participant a dual path to conduct their world trade.   

It is a possible solution to an alternative to the greenback.   It will take development of an international structure, but its feasible that the world is sorting through current events to find a common ground about.  The consciousness of many produces now recognized the malaise of a single reserve currency that they have little say so or control over.    Most nations are awakening to the imbalances that creates.  Changing that picture will diffuse the disadvantages many nations endure because they have no other trade settlement mechanisms that are as easy or convenient.

The idea of settling international transactions, by direct currency conversion with trading partners, such as the use of developed exchange cross rates.  While it is very egalitarian on the surface, it is complex to project and hedge business risks involved in managing cross rate fluctuation with every trading partner.   Its clumsy and add a level of complexity that raises business risk exposure.  Its a headache for large business, with hoops and complex currency risk management to overlay on top of there business model.     

Reserve currencies serve a real need because they simply transactions and make hedging exposure easy and transparent.   Much less complex. 

The issue of what will come next, beyond the green back, is based on this need to recognize the value of a reserve currency, but with a better model by allowing a shared control over the valuation of that currency.  

Pushing what people recognize as a better model - into reality will take a level of political cooperation and shared vision -  that as well is asking a lot to get large players all on the same page.    The recent G20 gambit where Russia unveiled a world coin as a symbol and synthesis of this idea - is an example of an attempt to raise consciousness and serve as a focus discussion point among groups.

Moving to a strong cross rate trading mechanism for international business settlements is one likely stop gap measure on the pathway towards an new reserve.  
It is likely to be in full play before a new reserve is birthed.  

It may well be EURO that succeeds the Greenback if they can get their house in order.   The argument against that is that its EURO centric and is not as likely go get the buy in from Asia who continues to flex her economic muscle.    Asia (particularly China) will not be left at the table, succeeding currency policy to the bastions who formerly practiced imperialism on the world stage in a cold blooded manor.    I dont see the EURO as future mechanism.  

  Until something gets enough buy in, and until the political cohesive cooperation levels push ahead to formulate an alternative -  The green back will still prove itself a vital reserve.   People can wish for alternatives,  but it will not appear on the world stage,  unless the USD blows up.   

There is too much imbalance in the current investment levels in this reserve currency to allow countries who hate implication, to cause its demise.   They take too big a haircut from that process.    

The US recognizes this bias, and understands this imbalance, it allows them to act with impunity.  The  FED had enough of a realization - that driving liquidity into the game (even at US Taxpayer exposure) was their only option to sustain the Greenbacks position and combat the ills in this last recession.   They correctly perceived, lack of their involvement in crisis management in that way would have had a very unpleasant consequence for the world, as credit markets froze and pieces of the financial economy skidded to a halt.   Lots of wealth vanished in that crisis,  but at this point everyone has a been delivered in that safety net cast.  Not perfectly done but functional even amid its imperfection.  

Its a toss up, whether the $ blows up (because of continued US policy),  or an alternative comes into play by world political cohesion on this matter.

The concept of a new reserve brokered and built by a new international mechanism, while holding all national currencies in full play -  it the lowest risk transition model that I can envision.    It is fairest to all, and provides lowest impact to their national economic functioning.     Annually adjusted conversion rates set by consensus -  keeps national fiscal prudence and policys grounded, while offering freedom of all to have a voice the direction this international currency appraised the worth and value of soverign nations economic actions.  Its fair and transparent, perhaps not easy.  Many would argue  such a dual system would prevent traction of the new reserve.  I dont buy it.  A reserve currency always eases international business settlements.  It offers benefits to the business community, which enhances national economic aspirations on the international arena... 

The question of an alternative reserve is coming to the forefront of current history, no doubt about it.  To think the USD will remain in that place is wishful at best, but the time line and methods for a alternative are anyones guess.   

When I reflect upon this question,  The alternative not spoke about as much is Russia's possible role.    I see the Russia with a strong energy economy, and a foot in the door in Europe and Asia and close to the ME as well - as having more clout than they currently get credit for.  While they have a long way to return to their industrial capacity - they have a energy sector that will underpin there growth into the future.  They have strong scientific, engineering, and a large industrial base than can be transformed with their petrol dollars.   The also have a strengthening state mechanism in play.  Its possible for them to build consensus as well or better than most, because they stood opposite in a  battle for dominance with the US for many decades.  They just busted out of the game first.   So the are as well capable of remerging in a different way, bouyed by their recources.

Its anyone's guess.  EU has issues and China is still an experiment in my book.  For now world adversity still favors the Greenback, it will take a strong establish new reserve currency to unseat that historical pattern.  

Bin Laden weighs in here.  His demise will allow a US pullback on the world stage of outward projected vigilance against terror threats.  That return to concept of a more self contained fortress America, buffered by her own national boarders and  focused on her own issues over interventions to foster her goals upon the world.  It becomes a very real future trajectory.  Its a cruicible for greatness the US has used successfully before.  While shes not the same kind of strong producer she was before,  Its an economy with resiliency, innovation, and a deeply established business tallent pool.   A return to retracement into that crucible and a focus to solve issues will bouy the USD, much in the way that corporate cost cutting always drive stock values upward.   

In such a future scenerio some of the imbalances in the current reserve currency can unwind in a more orderly fashion....   It will take a focused recognition by the US that such a pathway would be of benefit to the world.  And reduce conflicts at the same time....  

US businesses with strong international presences around the world will not welcome such a forward pathway. The military industrial complex gets its free hand source US goverment borrowing as the currency imbalance recycles investment into US debt obligations.      Too much US wealth and advantage are is invested on the status quo state of equilibrium of the GB as a reserve.  Those are two strong groups that will work against  the right thing being done.  So an orderly unwind in the greenback hegemony has strong opponents who will attempt to avoid that path. 

These are my thoughts on pathways and predicaments connected to the idea of a new reserve currency.  The pathways are not clear and options exist at every turn to make the process orderly or disorderly.

----------


## Buksida

> The BBC's "Power of Nightmares" has been quoted, the BBC is far from neutral it's been run and infiltrated by left wing liboturds from top to bottom for years and it's certainly not impartial and to be honest I wouldn't trust the BBC any more than I would Tony Blair or Gordon the Moron!


You don't have to trust anyone, I'm talking about making decisions based on facts and evidence. Just cause you don't like the BBC, doesn't mean the documentary (which has been critically acclaimed in the US) is BS.

Watch on youtube if you like, it's quite funny.

----------


## MakingALife

> Originally Posted by sabang
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by MakingALife
> ...


Very true post... Energy is a practical reason to have concerns for that region, because to the world - it the life blood for the productive engines of most producer economies.    I like to believe the US sees ideological side as equally important, since they are not as hand strapped over energy needs, and are very capable of  innovate a forward productive pathway in a lean fossil fuel future.    Your point about the worlds concern because of their own different positions is a very correct one to trumpet.    The analogy to civil war and the connection to salvery is a good one.    It is well to recognise it was a war about beliefs, and below the surface it was economic warfare as well.

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## Buksida

It was Charlie Sheen, that's why they're being so secretive

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## MakingALife

> People point to 2nd gulf war against Sadam Hussain for WMD's, as a  fabricated agenda for transplanting of a democracy and regime change.   That critical voice ignores his actions in Kuwait and his genocide by  gas to ethnically cleanse his Kurddist minority.  Those actions clearly  deserve the black brush treatment.  Much more that the three principal  powers (with the US as the lead) for their roles in Gulf War 2.
> 			
> 		
> 
> Given that the 'merkins sold him the materials for chemical weapons on the basis that he was to use them against Iran, and given their tacit approval to his actions against Kuwait (no doubt with a hidden agenda), I find this rather amusing. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great post ... Great rebuttal...  Well made points, a practical view that discounts some of the idealist in the motivaitions I view were part of the matrix of actions.

You are correct to point out the business influence bought and paid for shapes international action and bias.  Its turthful and sincinct.  It hard to accept the world is one big whorehouse....  I fight the urge to descend into that world view.

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## harrybarracuda

> Actually here in the sandpit it is colloquially referred to as the "Bombay Broadcasting Corporation".
> 			
> 		
> 
> So where exactly is 'here in the sandpit'?


Give you a clue, Koojo.... a place with lots of sand.

Maybe you can make an educated guess?

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## Butterfly

> The most widely acclaimed doco about 9/11 and terrorism is the BBC's The Power of Nightmares. It deals with historical facts comparing the rise of neo cons with Islamic fundamentalists.


indeed, that documentary is a must see and an eye opener

not for the american public though, pearls to swines, it will be lost on them

----------


## Carrabow

> When I first heard seals had dumped his body in the sea I thought it was a joke.


Too nice...
I was thinking more on the lines of industrial plastic shredder/wood chipper  :mid:

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## The Bold Rodney

> You don't have to trust anyone, I'm talking about making decisions based on facts and evidence. Just cause you don't like the BBC, doesn't mean the documentary (which has been critically acclaimed in the US) is BS.


It's not that I don't like the BBC in fact many of their programs are and have been excellent but political historical facts and evidence presented by any organization who shall we say might be considered to be biased isn't the source to form oppinions from.

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## Cujo

> Originally Posted by Buksida
> 
> 
>  When I first heard seals had dumped his body in the sea I thought it was a joke. 
> 
> 
> Too nice...
> I was thinking more on the lines of industrial plastic shredder/wood chipper


I can't understand why they WOULD do that.
It's just so totally bizzare a thing to do that i wonder if they aren't covering up something.
But then what would be their options.
Leave it there where it lay?
Take it home to the states?
Drop it in Saudi?
There is definitely something weird going on here.

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## The Bold Rodney

> Too nice... I was thinking more on the lines of industrial plastic shredder/wood chipper


Feeding his body to Pigs might have caused a bit of a stir?  :mid:

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## Buksida

> Originally Posted by Buksida
> 
> You don't have to trust anyone, I'm talking about making decisions based on facts and evidence. Just cause you don't like the BBC, doesn't mean the documentary (which has been critically acclaimed in the US) is BS.
> 
> 
> It's not that I don't like the BBC in fact many of their programs are and have been excellent but political historical facts and evidence presented by any organization who shall we say might be considered to be biased isn't the source to form oppinions from.


You can always check facts with other sources. 

Rumsfield had some good BS, claiming Al Queda was a massive network with 100s of caves like this (none were found):

----------


## OhOh

Osama bin Laden sons attack legitimacy of US assault | World news | guardian.co.uk

_Osama bin Laden sons attack legitimacy of US assault
In letter to New York Times, sons of al-Qaida leader call for UN inquiry into why their father was killed and not arrested_

_"Osama bin Laden's adult sons have attacked the legitimacy of the US assault that killed their father, calling for a UN inquiry to determine why he was not arrested and prosecuted.

In a joint letter the family said it wanted to know "why an unarmed man was not arrested and tried in a court of law so that truth is revealed to the people of the world".

"Arbitrary killing is not a solution to political problems," they said.

The letter was sent to the New York Times under the name of Omar bin Laden, the 30-year-old fourth son of Bin Laden who lived with the al-Qaida leader in Sudan and Afghanistan but has publicly denounced his attacks on civilians.

Drawing comparisons with Saddam Hussein and the former Serb leader Slobodan Milosevic, the statement said "international law has been blatantly violated" and, in a reference to the shooting of other people in the compound, said President Obama had ordered "the execution of unarmed men and women".

The letter contained some contradictions. Bin Laden called on the US to provide proof of his father's death – "we are not convinced" he said – while also condemning Osama bin Laden's sea burial as a deprivation of the family's religious rights.

Bin Laden also said it was "unworthy" of US special forces to kill an unarmed female family member and one of Osama bin Laden's sons, identified in news reports as 22-year-old Khalid. But the exact identities of those killed remains unclear.

Some reports last night suggested that another son, 20-year-old Hamza, had escaped the raid. A senior Pakistani intelligence official said he had no information about any escapees.

Bin Laden's family said it was calling on Pakistan to repatriate his three wives and several children, who are being held in military custody after surviving the dramatic US special forces raid on their Abbottabad home eight days ago.

Washington has publicly demanded access to the wives, one Yemeni and two Saudis, saying they may offer new intelligence on al-Qaida. Officials in Islamabad responded with conflicting statements but last night the interior minister, Rehman Malik, told CNN that access would be granted although he not specify when.

In 2007 Omar bin Laden married Jane Felix-Browne, a parish councillor from Cheshire whom he met during a holiday to Egypt. She later changed her name to Zaina Mohamed al-Sabah.

In the statement Bin Laden reiterated that he "always disagreed with our father regarding any violence and always sent messages to our father, that he must change his ways and that no civilians should be attacked under any circumstances".

"Despite the difficulty of publicly disagreeing with our father, he never hesitated to condemn any violent attacks made by anyone, and expressed sorrow for the victims of any and all attacks."

Bin Laden said he was assembling a "panel of eminent British and international lawyers" to help obtain answers. If the Obama administration did not respond within 30 days it would take "necessary action" including lodging cases with the international criminal court and the international court of justice."_

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> You can always check facts with other sources.


I agree with you and I do that in order to try and achieve a balance.




> Rumsfield had some good BS, claiming Al Queda was a massive network with 100s of caves like this (none were found):


I agree with you again and I'm not disputiing the fact that politicians use "spin" and "misinformation" to manipulate their electorate. 

In fact the term "spin" irritates me not least because it makes it appear to acceptable when it's nothing more than a political method used to manipulate voters!

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> In the statement Bin Laden reiterated that he "always disagreed with our father regarding any violence and always sent messages to our father, that he must change his ways and that no civilians should be attacked under any circumstances".






> "Despite the difficulty of publicly disagreeing with our father, he never hesitated to condemn any violent attacks made by anyone, and expressed sorrow for the victims of any and all attacks."


This reads like a direct contradiction to me?  :Confused:

----------


## good2bhappy

What do Americans mean by Human Rights?

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> What do Americans mean by Human Rights?


 
Doh...their human rights of course, come on "G"BH" try and keep up!

----------


## good2bhappy

Oh I see like critising the Chinese govt
They must be laughing their socks off in private at the US recent gaff

----------


## Panda

[quote=MakingALife;1753464][quote=Panda;1752914]


> Dont forget OPEC looks out for OPEC - Just as you say CANADA looks out for CANADA as an energy exporter. Shaping the demand side of the curve is difficult, because of challenges, such as the rapid industrialization taking place in China over the last decade, a trend that will likely continue. So its pretty fair to say - no one can control or influence low oil pricing. Without such a deliverable mechanism your predatory view of the US intentions to act in a way that fosters cheap oil falls on its face.


USA does not directly control the price of oil either domestically or on the world market. Never said it did. The world price of oil is basically set by OPEC based on supply and demand. Reason OPEC can set the price is that they as a group own virtually all the cheap to extract oil. 

It all comes down to supply and demand. Suppliers will generally ask the highest price that the demand will sustain. Thats what they are in business for. Oil, being a finite resource, it makes a lot of sense for OPEC countries not to go hell for leather flooding the market with cheap oil at the expense of future income. Though OPEC, mainly through its head, Saudi Arabia, does twig the world price occasionally at the request of USA by turning the taps up or down.

And of course investment speculators can also force up the price periodically as we saw a few years back. But their influence is only a temporary bubble that must eventually burst as we saw when oil went from $140 to around $40 a while back. After this huge rise and fall the Saudi Royals reassured USA that they would set the world price at around $70 to $80 a barrel by balancing off supply with demand. Which indeed they did for a while. But the tradable value of the $US has been in sharp decline over the past couple of years due to Bernanke's money printing. And since Saudi Arabia and most other OPEC countries have their own currencies locked rigidly to the $US, and since OPEC sells its oil exclusively in $USs, it meant that they were actually selling their oil at an ever decreasing price in real tradable value on the world market. So, Saudi turned the taps down to increase the price, at least in terms of $USs. Some say it was a political act of spite reflecting their alarm at USAs abandonment of Egypt's dictator. Maybe it was, but there is certainly some financial inducement there.
So, oil has gone up in some countries, especially USA with their falling $, and down in other countries.

The Saudi royals are certainly in the drivers seat when it comes to oil price control. But with their limited reserves of the cheap to extract good stuff starting to get low, that premier position is soon to pass to countries with the next biggest reserves. Namely Iraq and Iran. Does USAs determination for regime change in these two countries make any more sense to you now?

Now on to US domestic oil production. Sure USA has the capacity to produce its own oil if required. But they wont and cant because US oil producers sell their product at the "World Price", which is set by Saudi Arabia. US and international companies producing oil in USA aint in the business of subsidizing cheap gasoline for American consumers. They are in business to maximize profits for their shareholders. They will sell their oil to the highest bidder. Only way the USA could become self sufficient is to put an embargo on oil exports which would see gasoline prices spike dramatically. 
Right now with domestic US gasoline prices above $US 4 a gallon, its a huge political issue for the government. The US voters are outraged at the price hike, even though they dont know or care that most of the rest of the developed nations are paying double that. So, there is an awful lot of pressure on US governments to, not so much get their hands on Iraqi and Iranian oil, but to get control of those governments and thus control the world price by proxy as they currently do by propping up the dictator Saudi Royal regime. 

Thats where US foreign policy comes in. And of course military action. Support for despot dictators like the Saudi Royals and Bahrainian King, while invading Sadams Iraq and beating the war drums against current Iranian government. Its all about controlling the world price of oil for the US domestic market. All be it indirectly and by proxy puppet governments bought off with arms deals and a blind eye to any moral indiscretions they may have to comit to stay in power. Has worked quite well for USA in Saudi Arabia. But they made a big mistake in installing a democracy in Iraq. Iran is still a possibility though. Maybe try installing another Shar dictator there like they did a few decades ago. 

Its all about oil, or rather about controling the world price of oil through proxy governments. Why on earth would a bankrupt USA otherwise be interested in waging war on the other side of the earth who pose no military threat what so ever?

----------


## Butterfly

the US is the laughing stock of the world,

I miss GW Bush though,

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by OhOh
> 
> In the statement Bin Laden reiterated that he "always disagreed with our father regarding any violence and always sent messages to our father, that he must change his ways and that no civilians should be attacked under any circumstances".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The kid is just supporting Daddy FFS. What else would he say.  "Geez guys,  it's really great that you  topped my ol man"  I would probably have done the same for my Dad, even if _he_ had bombed the WTC.... :Confused:    Kids are supposed to be supportive of their parents.. even if they disagree with them, which most kids do... :Smile:

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by Carrabow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Buksida
> ...


Doubt is a very powerful psychological tool.

I can just see all the boys running around trying to debunk the US, calling each other every day to confirm something. To top it off they denied him his honorable death. If they are smart, all of his number 2's & 3's better start running for their lives.

----------


## Butterfly

it's not contradiction,

for you poor Americans with a comprehension problem, it means he doesn't have contact with his father, and like everyone else, he is doubting the validity of the killing.

Not sure why we have to explain everything to you retards,

----------


## patsycat

Is that the son who is a camel handler near the pyramids who married an English woman and they are trying to have a baby with a surrogate?

Yes, i do read the Sun...

----------


## good2bhappy

it is the small matter of desecrating the dead that probably upsets the son

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> for you poor Americans with a comprehension problem, it means he doesn't have contact with his father, and like everyone else, he is doubting the validity of the killing.


"pupa"...I've given up telling you I'm NOT American you stupid, ignorant, illiterate little poofy prick! 

LOOK AT THIS FLAG YOU FUCKING RETARD  :St George:  GIVEN YOU A CLUE HAS IT? 
JUST IN CASE YOU MISSED IT HERE IT IS AGAIN!  :St George: 

I'll not bother to reply to your silly anti American rant as it's a complete waste of my time!  :rofl: 

p.s. I'M ENGLISH YOU STUPID FRENCH / BELGIE FUCKING RETARD!  :St George:

----------


## Carrabow

> it's not contradiction,
> 
> for you poor Americans with a comprehension problem, it means he doesn't have contact with his father, and like everyone else, he is doubting the validity of the killing.
> 
> Not sure why we have to explain everything to you retards,


 
Well, 

Let me explain something to you

All the little tyke has to do is get on his Iphone and call one of Daddy's wives and ask them.

Or do the big bad Americans have them in Gitmo too?

Dumb ass

----------


## good2bhappy

^ Georgian?

----------


## Butterfly

> telling you I'm NOT American you stupid,


does it matter ? you think and speak like them, which makes sense since you come from the same family of retards, they are your cousins




> I'll not bother to reply to your silly anti American rant as it's a complete waste of my time!


and yet,

----------


## Carrabow

> ^ Georgian?


I think the red cross on the white flag represents *"shoot me please"*  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Norton

> which makes sense since you come from the same family of retards


Mon dieu! Obama is a Brit.

----------


## genghis61

a selection of t-shirts on sale in USA. 
Ideal conversation starters for backpackers in foreign lands . . .

----------


## genghis61

*Breaking News! Steven Seagal trains Seal Team Six* 



*Sources have confirmed that ALL of the members of Seal Team Six, the elite military unit that assassinated Osama Bin Laden, have been personally trained by actor and leading martial artist Steven Seagal. One of the Seal Team operators, responding to questions from a source (that we cannot reveal) said:
*
"Yes, it is true, Steven Seagal has revolutionized our training and influenced our style, taking us to the next level as special-ops warriors."

When asked for specifics and/or training details, the operator and Seal Team Six member said, "Well, just teaching us to wear yellow-tinted glasses has been a huge part of our success recently. Also, the fact that Steven Seagal invented Close-Quarter-Battle (CQB) technique, the modern helicopter assault, and the crane kick has been important."

The Seal Team Six member did confirm, however, that Steven Seagal was not actually involved in the take-down of Osama Bin Laden. "He is a very busy man and could not make it. However, we all were able to prepare for the hit on Osama by watching several re-runs of Out for Justice, Marked for Death, and our unit's favorite, Hard to Kill."

----------


## Butterfly

5/1/11 is the new 9/11/01

maybe an hidden message somewhere to all socialist harboring countries, since it's International Labor Day

----------


## Thormaturge

Apparently bin Laden kept a diary.

Can't wait to learn what he thought of Avatar.

----------


## Carrabow

> *leading martial artist Steven Seagal.* ."


 
What a Douche Bag

----------


## daveboy



----------


## harrybarracuda

> 


The phrase _non sequitur_ springs to mind....

----------


## good2bhappy

Attorney General Eric Holder has said that the killing was lawful and "an act of national self-defence".

Have they seen the video of the old man watching his sat tv?
Maybe they thought he was Gandalf

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Butters, your going to need this again...




That looks very much like the mirror "thegent" uses everyday?  :rofl:

----------


## koman

> Attorney General Eric Holder has said that the killing was lawful and "an act of national self-defence".
> 
> Have they seen the video of the old man watching his sat tv?
> Maybe they thought he was Gandalf


There are few things more foreboding than an old guy sitting alone, wrapped in a blanket watching himself on TV.  Scared the shit out of me when I saw it.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> The phrase non sequitur springs to mind....


Whilst I cannot disagree with you "arry" keep it simple mate (unlike "thegent") or "pupa's" going have even more problms understanding what's going on!  :rofl:

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> There are few things more foreboding than an old guy sitting alone, wrapped in a blanket watching himself on TV. Scared the shit out of me when I saw it.


Sorry to hear that "koman" but trust me he's never gonna bother you again!  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Thormaturge



----------


## shadow role

Just saw a doco of the trouble Mossad went to ,capturing Adolph Eichmann and getting him back to Israel for TRIAL.sURE HE WAS RESONSIBLE FOR A FEW MORE DEATHS THAN obl.

----------


## genghis61

*Members of Congress see bin Laden photos*
By the CNN Wire Staff
May 12, 2011 -- Updated 0358 GMT (1158 HKT)

*Washington (CNN) -- More members of Congress are seeing something cleared for only a select group of Americans: Photos of Osama bin Laden's corpse.*

Republican Sen. James Inhofe told CNN's Eliot Spitzer on Wednesday he saw about 15 photos of bin Laden's body, most taken at the al Qaeda leader's compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan. Three were taken on a naval vessel from which bin Laden was buried at sea after the May 2 U.S. commando raid.

"Pretty gruesome" is how Inhofe described photos of brains hanging out of bin Laden's eye socket. The wound either entered or exited an ear, the Oklahoma senator said.

Many people have demanded proof that bin Laden was killed.

"That was him," said Inhofe, a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee. "He is gone. He's history."

Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Florida, told CNN national correspondent Susan Candiotti he will see the images Thursday morning at the CIA's headquarters in Langley, Virginia.

Members of Senate and House committees that deal with intelligence and military matters have been invited to see the photos in the coming days, but they won't be allowed to take any copies of the photos.

Nelson is a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee.

Inhofe said at least some of the photos should be released, but not all his congressional colleagues, including Nelson, agree.

Rep. Steny Hoyer, the House minority whip, last week said he supported President Barack Obama's decision to keep them under wraps.

"In my opinion, there's no end served by releasing a picture of someone who's been killed, and I think there is absolute proof that Osama bin Laden was in fact the person ... killed," said Hoyer, D-Maryland.

"It is not in our national security interest ... to allow these images to become icons to rally opinion against the United States," White House spokesman Jay Carney told reporters at the time. "We have no need to publish those photographs to establish that Osama bin Laden was killed."
more

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> "That was him," said Inhofe, a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee. "He is gone. He's history."


He's directly contradicting "pupa" I hope he knows what he's doing? Just can't wait for his next diatribe! 

"pupa" that is not Inhofe!  :rofl:

----------


## Dan

^ Inhofe? They might have picked someone who hasn't spent his political career doing his best to convince the world that the American political system really is a charade run by cretins. On the other hand, as far as the conspiracy theory crew go, he's probably considered a credible source.

----------


## good2bhappy

> The wound either entered or exited an ear,


well if it entered it sounds like he was held down and shot!

----------


## Butterfly

hint for our American nutter above  :mid: 




> a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee

----------


## good2bhappy

and if that is the case then I wonder if the US has the right to call itself a member of the civilised world community
Mafia style execution

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> well if it entered it sounds like he was held down and shot!


WTF are you talking about?

It's bad enough having that French / Belgie idiot posting inane crap without adding to it!

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> and if that is the case then I wonder if the US has the right to call itself a member of the civilised world community Mafia style execution


WTF are you talking about?

It's bad enough having that French / Belgie idiot posting inane crap without adding to it!

----------


## Norton

> the US is the laughing stock of the world

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> hint for our American nutter above


"pupa" You're even are more stupid than I could possibly give you credit for!  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by good2bhappy
> 
> well if it entered it sounds like he was held down and shot!
> 
> 
> WTF are you talking about?
> 
> It's bad enough having that French / Belgie idiot posting inane crap without adding to it!


I was wondering too.  If he had been shot from a distance of 500m or any other distance for that matter, the bullet could still "enter"  or  "exit" from an ear.. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   Bullets do that sort of thing when fired.  You certainly would not have to hold down the target to get such a result.  Now, if he had been shot up the ass and it came out of the top of his nose, I would be thinking "they must have held him"

----------


## good2bhappy

^ not if he had been mooning them

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by The Bold Rodney
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by good2bhappy
> ...


Anything is possible if it is 5.56

----------


## The Bold Rodney

:kma: 


> not if he had been mooning them


 :kma:

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> You certainly would not have to hold down the target to get such a result.


Do you think we can get "pupa" to volunteer to prove this theory?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## koman

> Just saw a doco of the trouble Mossad went to ,capturing Adolph Eichmann and getting him back to Israel for TRIAL.sURE HE WAS RESONSIBLE FOR A FEW MORE DEATHS THAN obl.


Adolph was a big time Nazi war criminal who was the lead man in solving "the Jewish problem" for the Reich.  The Mossad would not have topped him because of the massive propaganda value of a trial in Israel.  Made Israel look cool and capable.
The PR was invaluable. If they had just quietly double tapped him in Argentina it would only have been news for a few days.  The trial and spinoff lasted for a whole year or more.  A Bin Laden trial would more likely have just resulted in a big propaganda opportunity for the extremist Islamic groups and a big grandstanding opportunity for OBL.

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> You certainly would not have to hold down the target to get such a result.
> 
> 
> Do you think we can get "pupa" to volunteer to prove this theory?


 
You might get him to agree if it was a battering ram  :Smile:

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by good2bhappy
> 
> not if he had been mooning them



Very good.  That did not occur to me.  Good2behappy must be a forensic scientist.... :Smile:

----------


## Butterfly

it's nice listening to american right wing nutter fascists for the evening aperitif  :Smile: 

you 3, are you sure you are not Navy Seals ? you sound like you were there and have everything under control

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> it's nice listening to american right wing nutter fascists


"pupa"....................... :St George:  remember?  :rofl:

----------


## Carrabow

> it's nice listening to american right wing nutter fascists for the evening aperitif 
> 
> you 3, are you sure you are not Navy Seals ? you sound like you were there and have everything under control


Naw Butters, I'm a Doughboy  :Smile:

----------


## koman

> it's nice listening to american right wing nutter fascists for the evening aperitif 
> 
> you 3, are you sure you are not Navy Seals ? you sound like you were there and have everything under control


Same as the other 2.   Dual nationality; neither of which is American.  Ex Air Force...
but I did own a pair of Sealskin slippers once... :Smile: 

Now, are you going to give us an opinion of this ballistics question or not.... :Smile:

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> A Bin Laden trial would more likely have just resulted in a big propaganda opportunity for the extremist Islamic groups and a big grandstanding opportunity for OBL.


Quite right not to mention all the leftwing "liboturds" "PC" and mentally confused individuals jumping on the bandwagon...maybe it's not the way OBL was killed that upsets "pupa" and other similar individuals? 

It's the loss of the Golden propaganda opportunity?

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> 
> it's nice listening to american right wing nutter fascists for the evening aperitif 
> 
> you 3, are you sure you are not Navy Seals ? you sound like you were there and have everything under control
> 
> 
> Same as the other 2. Dual nationality; neither of which is American. Ex Air Force...
> ...


Not to butt in, but if I had a choice it would be a .45 185-230 grain hydrashok for deeds of this nature.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Not to butt in, but if I had a choice it would be a .45 185-230 grain hydrashok for deeds of this nature


Absolutely no problem with you butting in...you're welcome...you do mean "a .45 185-230 grain hydrashok" for "pupa" don't you?  :rofl:

----------


## Butterfly

Right Wing retards, aren't they cute to watch ?  ::chitown::

----------


## Takeovers

> "pupa" You're even are more stupid than I could possibly give you credit for!


I guess you are wrong. 

There are different types on this forum. One type is like BoonMee. They receive their opinion from websites. To read those websites it is an absolute requirement to have shut down all higher brain functions.

And then there is BF. He has a brain and he uses - or rather abuses - its functions to come up with whatever crap he puts in here. That does not necessarily make him stupid.

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by Carrabow
> 
> Not to butt in, but if I had a choice it would be a .45 185-230 grain hydrashok for deeds of this nature
> 
> 
> Absolutely no problem with you butting in...you're welcome...you do mean "a .45 185-230 grain hydrashok" for "pupa" don't you?


No, I wouldn't think like that. Butters puts a little spice into the TD stew  :Smile: 

See Butter's, I give credit where it is due.

----------


## sabang

> He has a brain


Show me some evidence- or should I just take that on trust?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Boon Mee

> There are different types on this forum. One type is like BoonMee. They receive their opinion from websites. To read those websites it is an absolute requirement to have shut down all higher brain functions.


Heh...last time I checked 'websites' is where the news is these days... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## S Landreth

SENATOR JOHN McCAIN SPEAKS ON THE SENATE FLOOR ON THE DEBATE ON THE USE OF TORTURE

*It starts at 5:50*

*

*



Then there is this,..

Though it took a decade to find bin Laden, there is one consolation for his long evasion of justice: He lived long enough to witness what some are calling the Arab Spring, the complete repudiation of his violent ideology.

As we debate how the United States can best influence the course of the Arab Spring, cant we all agree that the most obvious thing we can do is stand as an example of a nation that holds an individuals human rights as superior to the will of the majority or the wishes of government? Individuals might forfeit their life as punishment for breaking laws, but even then, as recognized in our Constitutions prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment, they are still entitled to respect for their basic human dignity, even if they have denied that respect to others.

All of these arguments have the force of right, but they are beside the most important point. Ultimately, this is more than a utilitarian debate. This is a moral debate. It is about who we are.

----------


## bobo746

the blokes gone lets get the next lot. :Rocketwhore:

----------


## Butterfly

Those Navy Seals pussy now fear for their life,

typically American, without their big toys, they are just whining little bitches

Bin Laden death: Security fears for US Navy Seal team
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13379298

----------


## bobo746

The yanks should be chasing this bloke now.If they are serious he should be next on their hit parade.

----------


## Butterfly

look how BinLaden looks like Jesus,

I am sure he will get a few Christian converted eventually,

how long did it take for Christianity to shape after Jesus was sacrificed by the brutal Romans ?

----------


## koman

> look how BinLaden looks like Jesus,
> 
> I am sure he will get a few Christian converted eventually,
> 
> how long did it take for Christianity to shape after Jesus was sacrificed by the brutal Romans ?


Yea and the guy beside him looks just like John the Baptist.  The AK47 laying between them is a nice touch don't you think?... :Smile:

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> 
> look how BinLaden looks like Jesus,
> 
> I am sure he will get a few Christian converted eventually,
> 
> how long did it take for Christianity to shape after Jesus was sacrificed by the brutal Romans ?
> 
> ...


That is their symbol of peace and tool of the trade.

----------


## Butterfly

Jesus was also a terrorist btw, not the peaceful leader that the bible would like you to believe

----------


## shadow role

Mandela was a terrorist.

----------


## koman

> Jesus was also a terrorist btw, not the peaceful leader that the bible would like you to believe


me 

Very interesting. Can you give us some examples of his terrorist activities.  I seem to remember he was hard on loan sharks  (kicked them out of the Temple or something) ...but I don't think that would come under terrorist activity.  He disappeared from the scriptures at about age 12 and reappeared at about age 30...maybe in training camps somewhere up around Kandahar?

----------


## FailSafe

Just when I think BF can't get any nuttier, he turns it up a notch- on a scale of one to ten, he's on seventeen.

----------


## Cujo

> Jesus was also a terrorist btw, not the peaceful leader that the bible would like you to believe


Where's your evidence?
Jesus was worse than a terrorist, he was a fucking hippie.

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> 
> Jesus was also a terrorist btw, not the peaceful leader that the bible would like you to believe
> 
> 
> Where's your evidence?
> Jesus was worse than a terrorist, he was a fucking hippie.


 
Oh God, your killing me!  :rofl:

----------


## Butterfly

> Where's your evidence?


at the bottom of the sea,




> Mandela was a terrorist.


and he was black. All blacks are terrorists, well known facts, ask any Americans

----------


## Butterfly

> Very interesting. Can you give us some examples of his terrorist activities. I seem to remember he was hard on loan sharks (kicked them out of the Temple or something) ...but I don't think that would come under terrorist activity. He disappeared from the scriptures at about age 12 and reappeared at about age 30...maybe in training camps somewhere up around Kandahar?


actually Religion scholars, I mean the real ones, not the religious nutters, have uncovered significant evidence depicting him as some kind of agitated lunatic who would attack violently others for their religious beliefs (mostly jewish sects). Eventually the authority had to put him down, but it was his sacrifice and the way he died that made him a hero.

Poor jesus,

----------


## FailSafe

> and he was black. All blacks are terrorists, well known facts, ask any Americans


Eighteen...

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by koman
> 
> Very interesting. Can you give us some examples of his terrorist activities. I seem to remember he was hard on loan sharks (kicked them out of the Temple or something) ...but I don't think that would come under terrorist activity. He disappeared from the scriptures at about age 12 and reappeared at about age 30...maybe in training camps somewhere up around Kandahar?
> 
> 
> actually Religion scholars, I mean the real ones, not the religious nutters, have uncovered significant evidence


What evidence?
Did you read it on the interweb somewhere?
Well it MUST be true then.

----------


## koman

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> and he was black. All blacks are terrorists, well known facts, ask any Americans
> 
> 
> Eighteen...


and counting............. :smiley laughing:

----------


## MakingALife

> *Bin Laden's son denounces killing, sea burial*
> 11/05/2011
> 
> 
> SON OF: Omar bin Laden, son of Osama bin Laden.
> 
> *A statement purporting to come from a son of Osama bin Laden denounced the al Qaeda leader's killing as &quot;criminal&quot; and said his burial at sea had humiliated the family, an online monitoring service said.*
> 
> The statement, attributed to Omar bin Laden, bin Laden's fourth eldest son, said the al Qaeda chief's children reserved the right to take legal action in the United States and internationally to &quot;determine the true fate of our vanished father,&quot; the SITE Intelligence Group said.
> ...


Omar the tent maker, Favio look alike, potential heir to a piece of the Bin Laden family wealth, new heartthrob of the Islamic world.   Wants accountability for daddy gone missing, and in the same letter attempts to spank the US for a burial at sea.   Praising Osama as a very important person of high statue for his people... Attempting to tie it all to an offense of millions of Muslims sensibilities world wide.   Then he refuses to comment or authentic the letter.     Probably because the letter didnt move the masses, and in hindsight was judged as significantly conflicted in message.

I say...  Dont "reserve legal action " or threaten it... You've got the deep family pockets and "it's your daddies brains smeared on the stucco'd wall".  Get some fucking sack and get in the game - if you feel its really injustice.  Run it up the flag pole in the world court - Try a magicians slide of hand misdirection and focus on daddies end game, not his lifetime of deeds.  try to clear daddies name.. It wont pan out - surrounding facts will be daddies downfall. Omar's  handlers and those who hold Bin Laden family purse strings probably tell him its good money after bad.   

But if Omar believed the statements in his letter carried the full truth -  Only a Piece of Shit,  would frame their action so tentatively....  Truth is very likely that he does not believe all tenants in the letter.   Implications of Omars unwillingness to acknowledge the letter,  should be clear.... He is not 100% behind the letters contents ....    His willingness to not deny the letter means he's willing to get the free ride.  If the letter becomes a ground swell defining moment - he can ascend to greatness.  IF the letter flops he can distance himself.  The letter very likely Jihadist propaganda. Omar is spineless to not weight in on it, despite media inquires.    How else should this be READ ?  I'm all ears !!!  Lets hear it...

Just exactly who is Osama and his people ????   Recent 15 year history shows them to be an association of murdering radicalized muslin's -  who have hijacked that religion for Osama's own ambitious fantasy of restoring an Islamic Caliphate to the ME, and to expel all western influence in the region.  Before that he was a mercenary engaged in paramilitary operations - Not exactly imprinting for GOOD SEED is it ???  In the real world the concept of free will and demonstrated action is unalienable benchmark people are judged by.  History as well weights judgement for people's last mistake.  This is the way OSAMA will be judged  through the lens of history.    No external events can ever be responsible for the tumbling of Osama moral compass.  There is no idealist hero, or no true religious leader here in Osama..... No matter how often the mindless involve this hollow repeated ring. 

This letter smacks of a PR grab, to position Omar the tent maker, as a possible new voice shrieking about injustice.   Positioning him on the moral high ground.   Earlier Pr from Omar - imply he was aware of Osama's  sins and attempted to urge Osama to change his ways.  All posture... designed to show a human face -  engaged on the side of human justice,  pleading to Osama to stop is evil ways.   Now spun up into a diorama image of Osama death and burial as  injustice, which Omar attempts to  connect to millions of Muslims...    ITS BULLSHIT

Omar's model image includes .... A glassy Doe eyed look, fat dialated pupils, tight lipped expression, serious brow, strong jaw line chiseled features and &quot;Osama like&quot; shocking locks....   A real modernized leadership image for Islamic followers to connect to.....  Authority - with sensitive engaging eyes.   IT PURE IMAGE CRAFT PR DOSED OUT HERE.  Non-verbally influencing all the way, carefully selected from many possible images of Omar. 

Look closely folks...... And you'll see the mono-brow of third generation inbred genius poking through Omar's mystique.  

 :smiley laughing:    It shins pretty clearly there. 

Omar fails to understand Karma and its connection to  Daddies fate and Daddies true role in the world.   It's a pretty tall order to think Omar can be thrust into moral high ground with the real nature of terrorism's injustice and a retribution for the innocent blood spilled - as the root cause of Osama's outcome.    There is no moral high ground connected to any of it.  Its blood justice at work here

America, the west, and many moderate Muslims view the outcome as Justice done..... Quite Rightly so.    

Omar and the radicalized minority attempt to paint this as a victims injustice. Omar (if not the author of the letter) - has refused to deny or issue a press release related to this letter.  Despite contact from mainstream media. In effect Omar is  accepting authorship of the document  or approving it contents, by his silent response.  I dont buy Omars deniable positioning attempted here, nor do I buy the content of his message.  

Osama's outcome is justice done for a violent terrorist mastermind - who now appeared to have &quot;gone out&quot; as a slaughtered lamb.    That's only fitting for the innocent bloody deaths his terrorist operations served up to their intended innocent victims.      Anyone else marvel at the synchronicity of Karma at work, and the irony of a lion going out like a lamb ???

Those who call it a Mafia like hit, discount the sense of honor for blood justice that typify the mafia's mode of operation.     The mafia operate extra judicially, because 95% of their acts of retribution for injustices  can never be equalized in any court of law.    Same goes for the actions of Osama and his organization -   Justice for Osama was equally extra judicial as the carnage he caused.   

No monetary compensation award, or international pronouncement will ever adequately compensate any surviving victims loss.  Nor will it satisfy the very short live horrific injustice in the minds of those who lived out their last moments (like those on flight 93, or those on the upper floors in the towers) knowing they were dying at the hands of terrorists operations.  Expecting court to administer justice for these atroticies is an impossible task for any court to deliver upon.   

While the rule of law applys with efficiency to many things in life,  this is clear beyond question.    However, 
In its best possible form for it can never deliver justice for an innocent premeditated death.  People kid themselves when they think otherwise.   They decry the courts and law as being able to deliver justice in these pursuits.    

People can only make such statements about legal justice for innocent deaths, if they are far enough removed from the innocent deaths that they  do not  experience deep suffering, empathy or recognize abortion of fairness involved.   Being too far removed, it allows a disconnect.   It allows a framing of legal capacity that really does not exist in these particular cases.  

A legal system can only approximate justice in most of its pursuits.  In these particular cases of Osama Bin Laden and equivalent historical figures any legal system cannot deliver justice - when the harsh nature of significance of these figures and their actions are  full comprehended.    Blood justice fits - its equitable because its absolute and equal.   

Omar as a undenied mouth piece is playing both ends of the spectrum at the same time.  Trumpeting injustice to the muslins,  and engendering others by the nature of his plea and his position as the son of one of historys more notorious figures.  

I dont buy it.  I dont buy the letters contradictions.  I dont buy Omars tentative intentions, which should ring much loudly if it were driven by truth and full belief.   

Therefore a basic conclusions do draw... its managed propaganda, and Omar is POS for being unable to walk it and talk it like a true believer.   Reserving action instead of committing to take action.  He throws a small bone to Islam's need for righteous idnigation , but fails on any level a genuine heart felt emotional response - that people with honor could connect to.    

Does this posture suggest somehow Omar is more highly evolved than his islamic brethren  -  His mono-brow suggests otherwise.
 :smiley laughing:

----------


## good2bhappy

> He lived long enough to witness what some are calling the Arab Spring, the complete repudiation of his violent ideology.


And if the uprisings are crushed by oppresive govt action then his message will live again

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Jesus was also a terrorist btw, not the peaceful leader that the bible would like you to believe


Beautiful "pupa" just beautiful keep it up you're getting stranger by the day, you're not taking your medication anymore are you?  :rofl: 




> Just when I think BF can't get any nuttier


Oh yes he can! 




> at the bottom of the sea,


There you go!




> and he was black. All blacks are terrorists, well known facts, ask any Americans


There you go again! 

As far as applying any scale to "pupa" don't bother trying he's already well off any immaginable scale!  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## koman

Does this posture suggest somehow Omar is more highly evolved than his islamic brethren  -  His mono-brow suggests otherwise.
 :smiley laughing: [/quote]

I watched a documentary a few years ago about Omar and his wife.  The wife is a mid fifties 4 times married MILF from the UK.  Her previous husband before Omar was a postman I think.   Omar and she were seen riding fine Arabian horses with the great pyramid in the background, and basking by the pool in Sharmel Sheik...apparently her chosen lifestyle...Omar just wanted to stay home and groom his pet camels.

 Turns out poor Omar was getting maxed out on all his credit cards and things were looking a bit bleak financially.  Omar was interviewed, and he came across as a very weak, manipulated little boy  (think he was about 27 at the time)  The MILF was holding his hand and clearly running the show.  I think the Bin Laden clan back in Saudi Arabia were not giving full support to this union, and were cutting Omar's allowance off, or something like that.

I don't know what happened after that.  This is the first time I've seen him re-surface since that time.  If they need a strong voice to propagate this stuff, they need to recruit the MILF...not poor Omar.. :rofl:

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Omar just wanted to stay home and groom his pet camels.


Not sure "groom" was the appropriate word here "koman"?

Saying that I'd heard similar rumours about baby OBL and even more about the MILF's ex postie hubby...apparently he kept saying her cheque was in the post, he wouldn't cum in her mouth and the he loved her.

I'm sorry to say divorce was indeed inevitible!  :rofl:

----------


## koman

[quote=The Bold Rodney;1755749]


> Omar just wanted to stay home and groom his pet camels.


Not sure "groom" was the appropriate word here "koman"?

I was just trying to keep it clean and civil.  They did show some of his pet camels, and they were quite attractive... some might say more so than the wife.. :rofl:

----------


## MakingALife

> Does this posture suggest somehow Omar is more highly evolved than his islamic brethren  -  His mono-brow suggests otherwise.


I watched a documentary a few years ago about Omar and his wife.  The wife is a mid fifties 4 times married MILF from the UK.  Her previous husband before Omar was a postman I think.   Omar and she were seen riding fine Arabian horses with the great pyramid in the background, and basking by the pool in Sharmel Sheik...apparently her chosen lifestyle...Omar just wanted to stay home and groom his pet camels.

 Turns out poor Omar was getting maxed out on all his credit cards and things were looking a bit bleak financially.  Omar was interviewed, and he came across as a very weak, manipulated little boy  (think he was about 27 at the time)  The MILF was holding his hand and clearly running the show.  I think the Bin Laden clan back in Saudi Arabia were not giving full support to this union, and were cutting Omar's allowance off, or something like that.

I don't know what happened after that.  This is the first time I've seen him re-surface since that time.  If they need a strong voice to propagate this stuff, they need to recruit the MILF...not poor Omar.. :rofl: [/quote]

Interresting insight !!!!  A cash strapped Omar - gives him reason to play.   A fat international court damage award or last minute negotions between US Gov and Omars family lawyers, as a buy out,  serves Omar and his lifestyle cash hungry wife  well.   Perhaps this is the true reason behind "reserving legal action" instead of charging and absorbing the full expense of such action.    Once legal action begins - it hardens positions and reduces a chance to broker a settlement.   Mormar settled lockerby and his other atrocities, in a cash payout.   Perhaps Omar's wife is driving the same gambit.    For sure their best options exist between now and the next presidential election.  Beyond that time line there is little leverage open for that brood to collect

Glad to hear there is other clear evidence in support of my observation that Omar the tent maker was spineless - on my first read....    Now its a pretty good thumbnail - based on your view of how a (4 TIME) UK MILF can master Omars world and his judgement.    I dont care how much beauty a 4 time retread may potential posses  -  there is a historical usury of those spoils that make them dated like shelf goods past their expiration date.    Shame the momma and poppa Bin and Grand ma and Grand pa Bin - couldn't shape  Omar (Favio as I see him) a better deal for a wife.    Thats a pretty high level of family dysfunction - for as close a tie to privilege that Omar occupies.   

Your post makes the picture much clearer.

----------


## Butterfly

is this thread the convention for the American Nutters institute ?

----------


## Carrabow

> is this thread the convention for the American Nutters institute ?


 
Want to join? With your credentials you would fit right in  :bananaman:

----------


## DrAndy

> Beautiful "pupa" just beautiful keep it up you're getting stranger by the day, you're not taking your medication anymore are you?





> As far as applying any scale to "pupa"


why keep using your distorted nik for BF

it is boring and not clever

and your posts tend to match. as does your nik




> *Rodney*
> 
> *Definition*
> 
> noun British a foolish or stupid person. This use of the name (by schoolchildren since the 1980s) is inspired by the character of Rodney in the long-running British TV comedy _Only Fools and Horses_.

----------


## FailSafe

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> 
> is this thread the convention for the American Nutters institute ?
> 
> 
>  
> Want to join? With your credentials you would fit right in


Hey, come on now- we may all be a bit nuts, but BF is on a level to which we can only aspire- maybe we can have him in as a visiting professor or something (a role model at the very least), but he's too far our of our league to actually join. :Tongue2:

----------


## Seekingasylum

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> for you poor Americans with a comprehension problem, it means he doesn't have contact with his father, and like everyone else, he is doubting the validity of the killing.
> 
> 
> "pupa"...I've given up telling you I'm NOT American you stupid, ignorant, illiterate little poofy prick! 
> 
> LOOK AT THIS FLAG YOU FUCKING RETARD  GIVEN YOU A CLUE HAS IT? 
> JUST IN CASE YOU MISSED IT HERE IT IS AGAIN! 
> ...


Presumably you also sport a plethora of tattoos, are jug eared, fat and bald, have no neck, wear a pink vest scarcely containing your beer belly but nicely set off by the gold earrings in those jug ears and can be found slouched over any beer bar in Pattaya guzzling your bottled Leo whilst drooling over some bandy legged, pugnosed Isaan hooker admiring your simian aspect and tasteful gold chain? 

You certainly write as one who does.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Presumably you also sport a plethora of tattoos, are jug eared, fat and bald, have no neck, wear a pink vest scarcely containing your beer belly but nicely set off by the gold earrings in those jug ears and can be found slouched over any beer bar in Pattaya guzzling your bottled Leo whilst drooling over some bandy legged, pugnosed Isaan hooker admiring your simian aspect and tasteful gold chain?




Good to see you back "oldboy" after such a long hiatus...and I'm pleased to see you here again! There's nothing like a stuck up, wordy, pompous little prick like you to amuse and entertain me.

I'll answer the points you made honestly and candidly...

No tattoos, sorry not one!
Ears normal and no they haven't been pinned back!
Not fat or bald sorry about that!
Never owned a pink vest or worn one! 
No earings either!
No beer belly either!
Never set foot in Pattaya!
I already pointed out I drink Chang not Leo!
I've seen many "pug nosed" Isaan hookers but I've never fucked one!
Simian aspect...interesting...but wrong again...you've been using your mirror again haven't you "oldboy"!  :Smile: 
No gold chain either!

Now talking of writing styles...let's take a quick look at your style shall we?
Longwinded, rambling, meaningless, arrogant and pompous to name but very few, I could list many more but I won’t waste my time. 
You’re egotistical and that’s why self-centred idiots like you think you can outshine people with your pathetic posts and garrulous phraseology on TD. Well I assure you don’t shine, you’re suffering from childish delusions of grandeur and at best appear supercilious! 
To summarise you write like a weedy academic “liboturd” / politically correct idiot who loves the sound of their own voice whilst they bathe in their imagined self-importance!

Finally, do us all a favour stop boring us (specifically me) with your inane use of unnecessary flowery language, it’s neither impressive nor is it interesting!
Remember its the quality and content of the wording NOT quantity and complexity! 
 :St George:  bye bye for now!  :rofl:

----------


## S Landreth

Former Colin Powell Chief of Staff Lawrence Wilkerson told MSNBCs Ed Schultz Wednesday that President George W. Bush wasnt interested in bringing Osama bin Laden to justice.

I dont think they really wanted to get bin Laden, Wilkerson said.

*You could be very cynical and say he didnt want to get him because once they got him the war was over and that left all the political advantage gone, he added.* Or you could say that they knew that it was almost an impossibility to get him given what they had done to the intelligence and other aspects of the government that you needed to get him. They just about ruined it.

Video: http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/05/former-colin-powell-chief-of-staff-bush-didnt-want-to-get-bin-laden/

Fuck Bush!

----------


## Seekingasylum

> Originally Posted by thegent
> 
> Presumably you also sport a plethora of tattoos, are jug eared, fat and bald, have no neck, wear a pink vest scarcely containing your beer belly but nicely set off by the gold earrings in those jug ears and can be found slouched over any beer bar in Pattaya guzzling your bottled Leo whilst drooling over some bandy legged, pugnosed Isaan hooker admiring your simian aspect and tasteful gold chain?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good to see you back "oldboy" after such a long hiatus...and I'm pleased to see you here again! There's nothing like a stuck up, wordy, pompous little prick like you to amuse and entertain me.
> 
> ...


Can you actually read what you have written?

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Can you actually read what you have written?


I can but can you understand it?

Probably NOT because it's in your own inevitable style!  :rofl:

----------


## Albert Shagnasty

> Originally Posted by thegent
> 
> Presumably you also sport a plethora of tattoos, are jug eared, fat and bald, have no neck, wear a pink vest scarcely containing your beer belly but nicely set off by the gold earrings in those jug ears and can be found slouched over any beer bar in Pattaya guzzling your bottled Leo whilst drooling over some bandy legged, pugnosed Isaan hooker admiring your simian aspect and tasteful gold chain?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good to see you back "oldboy" after such a long hiatus...and I'm pleased to see you here again! There's nothing like a stuck up, wordy, pompous little prick like you to amuse and entertain me.
> 
> ...


i think i see the source of your stress fella - try the pugnosed hookers - they're delicious  :Wink:

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> i think i see the source of your stress fella - try the pugnosed hookers - they're delicious


Thanks very much for your kind advice  :Smile: ...and honestly I'm fully aware some of those hookers and I agree some indeed look truly delicious.

Unfortunately I was having to use an arrogant pricks "terminology" who's sexuality could be considered dubious!  :Wink: 

p.s. I'm not referring to "pupa" he's already out of the closet!

----------


## Carrabow

> Former Colin Powell Chief of Staff Lawrence Wilkerson told MSNBC’s Ed Schultz Wednesday that President George W. Bush wasn’t interested in bringing Osama bin Laden to justice.
> 
> “I don’t think they really wanted to get bin Laden,” Wilkerson said.
> 
> “*You could be very cynical and say he didn’t want to get him because once they got him the war was over and that left all the political advantage gone,” he added.* “Or you could say that they knew that it was almost an impossibility to get him given what they had done to the intelligence and other aspects of the government that you needed to get him. They just about ruined it.”
> 
> Video: http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/05/former-colin-powell-chief-of-staff-bush-didnt-want-to-get-bin-laden/
> 
> Fuck Bush!


Great point and work WAS a plenty when GWB was in office. Now the unemployment rate is rising like a Isaan brat with Dengue fever.

It seems our knight in shining armour has beat the hornets nest with an ugly stick. There are many compasionate groups that are stirring up the ME region and we will have to see what direction this leads.

In the mean time,  ::chitown::

----------


## Takeovers

> Great point and work WAS a plenty when GWB was in office. Now the unemployment rate is rising like a Isaan brat with Dengue fever.


You forgot to mention that the breakdown occured during the time of the Bush administration and Obama now has to deal with the aftermath.

----------


## good2bhappy

The US has gained access to the widows
Information was not forthcoming
what next?
Torture?

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Great point and work WAS a plenty when GWB was in office. Now the unemployment rate is rising like a Isaan brat with Dengue fever.


Unemployment rising might have something to do with the worlds financial crisis and crash which I believe happened after Georgie's administartion  held office and the fact that poor regulation, lack of understanding and ineptitude during Georgie's term may have contributed to that crash?

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> The US has gained access to the widows


Not by the back door I hope?  :rofl:

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by Carrabow
> 
> Great point and work WAS a plenty when GWB was in office. Now the unemployment rate is rising like a Isaan brat with Dengue fever.
> 
> 
> You forgot to mention that the breakdown occured during the time of the Bush administration and Obama now has to deal with the aftermath.


 
Yeah...Maybe he will handle it like he did OBL and kill it  :rofl:

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by Carrabow
> 
> Great point and work WAS a plenty when GWB was in office. Now the unemployment rate is rising like a Isaan brat with Dengue fever.
> 
> 
> Unemployment rising might have something to do with the worlds financial crisis and crash which I believe happened after Georgie's administartion held office and the fact that poor regulation, lack of understanding and ineptitude during Georgie's term may have contributed to that crash?


 
Just like *ALL* politicians, great at handling issues away from home but can not take care of what is on the front door step  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Just like ALL politicians, great at handling issues away from home but can not take care of what is on the front door step


I would say the "majority of politicians" and there's a good reason for it...it's greed, power and corruption to name but a few. The corporates are the "tail wagging the dog" and I don't refer to the politicians I mean the so called "free market".

It would have been more accurate to name it "a free for all" market!

----------


## Takeovers

> Yeah...Maybe he will handle it like he did OBL and kill it


Good on you to point out that Bush left a lot more than just the economic crisis to clean up for Obama.

----------


## Mid

*Pornography found in Osama hideout*
May 14, 2011

 
_A stash of pornography was found in the hideout of Osama bin Laden by the US commandos who killed him._
PHOTO: AP

*WASHINGTON* - A STASH of pornography was found in the  hideout of Osama bin Laden by the US commandos who killed him, current  and former US officials said on Friday. 

The pornography recovered in Osama's compound in Abbottabad,  Pakistan, consists of modern, electronically recorded video and is  fairly extensive, according to the officials, who discussed the  discovery with Reuters on condition of anonymity. 

The officials said they were not yet sure precisely where in  the compound the pornography was discovered or who had been viewing it.  Specifically, the officials said they did not know if Osama himself had  acquired or viewed the materials. 

Reports from Abbottabad have said that Osama's compound was  cut off from the Internet or other hard-wired communications networks.  It is unclear how compound residents would have acquired the  pornography.

But a video released by the Obama administration confiscated  from the compound showed Osama watching pictures of himself on a TV  screen, indicating that the compound was equipped with video playback  equipment.

Materials carted away from the compound by the US commandos  included digital thumb drives, which US officials believe may have been a  principal means by which couriers carried electronic messages to and  from the late Al-Qaeda leader. Three other US officials familiar with  evidence gathered during investigations of other Islamic militants said  the discovery of pornography is not uncommon in such cases.

straitstimes.com

----------


## misskit

> Unemployment rising might have something to do with the worlds financial crisis and crash which I believe happened after Georgie's administartion held office and the fact that poor regulation, lack of understanding and ineptitude during Georgie's term may have contributed to that crash?


Watch out Rodney! You will soon be called a liboturd by some of the Republicans on TD. :Smile:

----------


## FailSafe

> A STASH of pornography was found in the hideout of Osama bin Laden by the US commandos who killed him, current and former US officials said on Friday.


I bet the other person killed in the raid was Osama's 'porn buddy' (that's the guy who comes to your house and destroys all your porn in the event of your untimely death so it isn't discovered by outsiders)- tough break.

Urban Dictionary: porn buddy

----------


## koman

> The pornography recovered in Osama's compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, consists of modern, electronically recorded video and is fairly extensive, according to the officials, who discussed the discovery with Reuters on condition of anonymity.


Oh dear.  This could be a bit of a PR problem for AQ if the "spiritual leader" turns out to be just another monger........ :rofl: .   Wonder if we can expect a release??

----------


## Butterfly

of course, we have to take the words of US officials for that  :mid: 

like everything else, they are always upfront and truthful  :mid: 

never a spin or create a story for the clueless public  :mid:

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by Mid
> 
>  The pornography recovered in Osama's compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, consists of modern, electronically recorded video and is fairly extensive, according to the officials, who discussed the discovery with Reuters on condition of anonymity.
> 
> 
> Oh dear. This could be a bit of a PR problem for AQ if the "spiritual leader" turns out to be just another monger......... Wonder if we can expect a release??


I am not a techie, but with todays day and age what is to say there isn't any data encrypted in with the video data?

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by The Bold Rodney
> 
> Unemployment rising might have something to do with the worlds financial crisis and crash which I believe happened after Georgie's administartion held office and the fact that poor regulation, lack of understanding and ineptitude during Georgie's term may have contributed to that crash?
> 
> 
> Watch out Rodney! You will soon be called a liboturd by some of the Republicans on TD.


 :rofl:  Hey TBR! You know Butter's is going to eat that one up!  :rofl:

----------


## Mid

_U.S. authorities are using interviews with Osama bin Laden's wives  and video of the assault on his Pakistan compound to piece together  details of the raid that killed the terrorist leader.

_ _After days of wrangling with Pakistani leaders, U.S. intelligence  officials were finally given access to bin Laden's three wives and were  allowed to question them in an effort to gather more information about  life in the compound, Pentagon officials said._

Pentagon: US Has Questioned bin Laden Widows


_THE chief of Pakistan's powerful intelligence agency offered to resign  in parliament following the US raid by US commandos who shot dead Osama  bin Laden, sources said on Saturday._ 

Pakistan intel chief offered to resign: sources


_Pakistan's second-highest ranking military official has cancelled a five-day visit to the US against the backdrop of heightened tensions between the two countries over the American raid that killed Osama bin Laden last week.   _ 

Pak 2nd highest ranking military officer cancels visit to US, IBN Live News

----------


## harrybarracuda

Who cares what Pakistan thinks anyway? They're only in it to trouser a couple of billion dollars in return for letting this kind of thing go on.

Their "parliament" is probably only snivelling because they aren't getting their share.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> Originally Posted by Mid
> 
>  The pornography recovered in Osama's compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, consists of modern, electronically recorded video and is fairly extensive, according to the officials, who discussed the discovery with Reuters on condition of anonymity.
> 
> 
> Oh dear. This could be a bit of a PR problem for AQ if the "spiritual leader" turns out to be just another monger......... Wonder if we can expect a release??


Sure pal - next you'll hear it was kiddie porn. Stoopid fuckin people will believe whatever they're told. 

I wonder if they'll release the videos of the CIA slapping Obama's wives around? What do you think? A Kink Production?

----------


## The Ghost Of The Moog

> Originally Posted by Mid
> 
> A STASH of pornography was found in the hideout of Osama bin Laden by the US commandos who killed him, current and former US officials said on Friday.
> 
> 
> I bet the other person killed in the raid was Osama's 'porn buddy' (that's the guy who comes to your house and destroys all your porn in the event of your untimely death so it isn't discovered by outsiders)- tough break.
> 
> Urban Dictionary: porn buddy


I believe this was originally a military custom. 

A friend would go through a deceased comrade's personal effects before they were despatched back to his grieving family, and, yes, remove unsavoury things like porn.

----------


## Carrabow

Is there anyone who is knowledgable with CD/DVD data storage and reproduction?

*"I am not a techie, but with todays day and age what is to say there isn't any other data encrypted in with the video data"?*

Someone will say I am reaching but it is plausible.

----------


## woodenshoe

^
Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer:



> Sure pal - next you'll hear it was kiddie porn. Stoopid fuckin people will believe whatever they're told.


and if that is not enough... they make up their own...

----------


## Boon Mee

Love it!

----------


## Carrabow

That didn't take long B.M  :rofl:

----------


## S Landreth

Whats Osama watchin?

I dont know if anyone has posted the link yet. But here it is:

http://www.tomscott.com/osama/#-f1cwycSWq0

----------


## MakingALife

Porngraphy found in Osama's compound -  Not surprising.   

Islamic religion and culture make it very clear that men dominate, they can take as many wifes as feel capable of supporting.  With a wife being any woman who reaches the age of menstruation.   Women's role in Islam is subservience, right down to being unable to display her face in public... Never mind displaying anything else.   

Some would argue ALQ was strongly against any western values -  In particular the values that treated women with equality and defended womans  rights to personal expression, including sexual expression.  This is as well why the practice of genital mutilation against woman is alive and well...  Stoning for adultery and many other primitive practices exist among their cultural norms.     All designed to reduces woman's sex drive and keeps the faithful and in line.  Keep women out of touch with their flawed base nature - becoming unstable and going into heat when their hormones race.   Its a biased view that is coupled with Islamic male insecurity which shines like a beacon.    Its part of the dark side of the Islamic family tree.   

Of course Islamic male virtue is considered superior as well - this is why they appoint themselves in a role cited as protective to women, by saving women and society at large - from the harm women would do - if they were allowed full expression and freedom.     Islamic men are the gate keepers of their culture and ideology, and it covers all the bases right down to the fundamental views and control they exert over their women. Islamic males cannot openly embrace the display and viewing of  pornography - they lose the foundation for their moral high ground and  supremacy.      

Traditionally pornographic content and story line is composed to display the male as dominant and the woman as a commodity object.   It fits right into the womans roles as seen by many the dominant Islamic male view.  Clearly women and their rights are secondary in Islam, clearly they are viewed as needing containment and to be kept under a mans control - for the good of society.  

The dislike of western influence  in the Arab world has as much to do with a dislike for the western view of women in society.   Sexual expression by women, and other public freedoms are something considered wholely unacceptable to Islamic culture.   A culture that is based on male dominant.    Traditional pornography is just another form of dominance, which Islam cannot openly support.... However - in private  - its a shoe that fits well for their own cultural bias.   

Doubtful the US will release bibliography of the titles found,  but If I were a betting man -  I would expect that their content included sub titles or dubbed in Arabic voice overs as part of the cache.   

In any case, this discovery was not unexpected.    To those who say this disclosure is pure fiction and planted bad PR...  Better get a grip on the Islamic view of women - before you write this disclosure off as pure fiction.

In an ideological sense - disclosing pornography was found on the compound, is pretty damaging to ideological veil that islamic men choose to warp themselves in, and stake out their claim as superior.   So its a master stroke to against the Osama mythology

I believe porno was found at the compound -  It fits the islamic male view which is best summed up as being dominant and superior.   It may not be Osama's porno - thats splitting hairs.   His moral authority is tainted by  this accusation.     End of story.

----------


## scrapmetalband

> Porngraphy found in Osama's compound - Not surprising. 
> 
> Islamic religion and culture make it very clear that men dominate, they can take as many wifes as feel capable of supporting. With a wife being any woman who reaches the age of menstruation. Women's role in Islam is subservience, right down to being unable to display her face in public... Never mind displaying anything else. 
> 
> Some would argue ALQ was strongly against any western values - In particular the values that treated women with equality and defended womans rights to personal expression, including sexual expression. This is as well why the practice of genital mutilation against woman is alive and well... Stoning for adultery and many other primitive practices exist among their cultural norms. All designed to reduces woman's sex drive and keeps the faithful and in line. Keep women out of touch with their flawed base nature - becoming unstable and going into heat when their hormones race. Its a biased view that is coupled with Islamic male insecurity which shines like a beacon. Its part of the dark side of the Islamic family tree. 
> 
> Of course Islamic male virtue is considered superior as well - this is why they appoint themselves in a role cited as protective to women, by saving women and society at large - from the harm women would do - if they were allowed full expression and freedom. Islamic men are the gate keepers of their culture and ideology, and it covers all the bases right down to the fundamental views and control they exert over their women. Islamic males cannot openly embrace the display and viewing of pornography - they lose the foundation for their moral high ground and supremacy. 
> 
> Traditionally pornographic content and story line is composed to display the male as dominant and the woman as a commodity object. It fits right into the womans roles as seen by many the dominant Islamic male view. Clearly women and their rights are secondary in Islam, clearly they are viewed as needing containment and to be kept under a mans control - for the good of society. 
> ...


Well said.I have believed for some time now that the ultimate solution to this scourge lies with there women.The Islamic male is scared to death of them becoming empowered.The insecurity of these men is something else.I believe that they detest women.I would love to see what a good team of psychiatrist's findings would be after studying these freaks.

----------


## shadow role

Osama sub human-coward using wife as human shield!!shock horror!
Osama lorded it up living in a millionaires mansion!OMG!
Osama watched porn..not,not hard core surely!!!
What next,Osama had a stash of cocaine,and used to snort it off the bodies of nubile virgins!
and he was cruel to animals and hardly ever changed his underwear.

----------


## sabang

> using wife as human shield


Nope



> living in a millionaires mansion


Nope



> watched porn


Yep.



> hardly ever changed his underwear


Have you met?



> sub human-coward


Definitely.

----------


## Butterfly

^^ waiting for those headlines in the news in the next few days,

anyway, he has become the new Jesus now, it doesn't really matter

and Jesus was also a whore monger btw,

----------


## koman

> What next,Osama had a stash of cocaine,and used to snort it off the bodies of nubile virgins!


Don't be ridiculous. He just snorted it of the top of the table... while watching porn, and he table was not too clean.  That goddam house was dingy looking.




> and hardly ever changed his underwear.


Probably did not wear any.... :Smile: 

Joking aside, you need to read MAL's post number 1555 over about 20-30 times until it sinks in, because he has it right on.  It's not an anti-Muslim rant as some will attempt to portray. It's just a healthy dose of reality, so instead of smart ass comments and sniping, try to make a reasoned argument to the contrary and see how you do. 

   We can as usual disregard Butters who just wants to have the highest post count on TD for some strange reason... :mid:

----------


## good2bhappy

No mention of this revelation on the BBC

----------


## sabang

Michael Moore makes a good point-

_If we really want to send bin Laden not just to his death, but also to his defeat, may I suggest that we reverse all of that right now. End the wars, bring the troops home, make the rich pay for this mess, and restore our privacy and due process rights that used to distinguish us from any other country. Right now, our democracy looks like Singapore and our economy has gone desperately Greek.

I know it will be hard to turn the clock back to before 9/11 when all we had to worry about were candidates stealing elections. A multi-billion dollar industry has grown up around "homeland security" and the terror wars. These war profiteers will not want to give up their booty so easily. They will want to keep us in fear so they can keep raking it in. We will have to stop them. But first we must stop believing them._

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michae..._b_861071.html

----------


## shadow role

> Originally Posted by shadow role
> 
> What next,Osama had a stash of cocaine,and used to snort it off the bodies of nubile virgins!
> 
> 
> Don't be ridiculous. He just snorted it of the top of the table... while watching porn, and he table was not too clean. That goddam house was dingy looking.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


have read it and no doubt there are Muslim extremists that live and practice as described...but it aint a perfect world..plenty of bizzare beliefs,cults in the West too.Mormons are allowed more than 1 wife too.Nuns are covered up ,etc,etc...The assasination and subsequent PR spin has been a disaster,internationally anyway imo.

----------


## koman

[quote=sabang;1757918]Michael Moore makes a good point-

_If we really want to send bin Laden not just to his death, but also to his defeat, may I suggest that we reverse all of that right now. End the wars, bring the troops home, make the rich pay for this mess, and restore our privacy and due process rights that used to distinguish us from any other country. Right now, our democracy looks like Singapore and our economy has gone desperately Greek.

I know it will be hard to turn the clock back to before 9/11 when all we had to worry about were candidates stealing elections. A multi-billion dollar industry has grown up around "homeland security" and the terror wars. These war profiteers will not want to give up their booty so easily. They will want to keep us in fear so they can keep raking it in. We will have to stop them. But first we must stop believing them._

Ahh  good ol Michael.  The biggest fucking hyprocrite of them all.  Makes millions out of his own particular brand of propaganda and fear mongering  (he  is also part of a multi-billion dollar industry) and then complains about all the other "rich" manipulators.  A bit like his friend Al Gore who expounds on green energy and saving the planet but builds himself an oceanfront mansion that uses more electricity than a small town....two consumate liborturds.

----------


## shadow role

but only one of them has a Nobel Prize....the other is 'unamerican'!

----------


## Butterfly

> Michael Moore makes a good point-
> 
> _If we really want to send bin Laden not just to his death, but also to his defeat, may I suggest that we reverse all of that right now. End the wars, bring the troops home, make the rich pay for this mess, and restore our privacy and due process rights that used to distinguish us from any other country. Right now, our democracy looks like Singapore and our economy has gone desperately Greek.
> 
> I know it will be hard to turn the clock back to before 9/11 when all we had to worry about were candidates stealing elections. A multi-billion dollar industry has grown up around "homeland security" and the terror wars. These war profiteers will not want to give up their booty so easily. They will want to keep us in fear so they can keep raking it in. We will have to stop them. But first we must stop believing them._
> 
> Michael Moore: Some Final Thoughts on the Death of Osama bin Laden


indeed, very well put, and full of common sense

all will probably lost on conservative fascist scums, may they be British or American

----------


## Boon Mee

> _make the rich pay for this mess
> _


M/M lives in a dreamworld.  'Make the rich pay' sounds slightly 'pink' to me! :rofl:

----------


## shadow role

someone will pay....raise the debt limit...AGAIN...just ask Geithner and co.

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by sabang
> 
> 
> _make the rich pay for this mess_
> 
> 
> M/M lives in a dreamworld. 'Make the rich pay' sounds slightly 'pink' to me!


Yeah...I believe in Michael Moore   :rofl: 

Fat sausage titty dribble

----------


## Boon Mee

> Whats Osama watchin?

----------


## scrapmetalband

Boon,that's just simply hilarious. :smiley laughing:

----------


## shadow role

> Osama sub human-coward using wife as human shield!!shock horror!
> Osama lorded it up living in a millionaires mansion!OMG!
> Osama watched porn..not,not hard core surely!!!
> What next,Osama had a stash of cocaine,and used to snort it off the bodies of nubile virgins!
> and he was cruel to animals and hardly ever changed his underwear.


close had a stash of 'coke' and a plot of marijuana 'discovered ' at his pad!

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> No mention of this revelation on the BBC


No mention of medication for "pupa" either although it's needed. 




> all will probably lost on conservative fascist scums, may they be British or American





> anyway, OBL has become the new Jesus now, it doesn't really matter





> and Jesus was also a whore monger btw,


I rest my case and agree with "koman" below.




> We can as usual disregard Butters who just wants to have the highest post count on TD for some strange reason...

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> all will probably lost on conservative fascist scums, may they be British or American


At least the British and American take care of our victims!  :rofl:

----------


## good2bhappy

^ he looks totally at sea in the ICU

----------


## good2bhappy

New OBL recording released

"I think that the winds of change will blow over the entire Muslim world, with permission from Allah," he says.
"There is a serious crossroads before you, and a great and rare historic opportunity to rise up with the Ummah (Muslim community) and to free yourselves from servitude to the desires of the rulers, man-made law, and Western dominance," he also says.

----------


## Mid

*Pakistan returns helicopter used in Bin Laden operation* 
28 May BB*C* 

Pakistan has returned the wreckage of a US helicopter destroyed         during the raid that killed al-Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden, the         Pentagon has said.

A spokesman said the remains of the aircraft were back on US soil         having been returned "over the weekend".

It is believed the helicopter was a UH-60 Blackhawk, heavily modified         to make it quieter and less visible to radar.

After developing problems, the helicopter - one of up to four used         during the 2 May raid - was blown up.

The team of Navy Seals did not want sensitive technology falling into         enemy hands.

"The wreckage of the helicopter destroyed in the Bin Laden operation         was returned over the weekend and is now back in the United States," said Pentagon spokesman Col Dave Lapan.

Its delivery meets a key US demand of Pakistan following the mission         to kill the al-Qaeda leader, which Islamabad called a violation of its         sovereignty.

Pakistani officials were not told of the raid before it took place in         Abbottabad, only 30 miles (50km) from Pakistan's capital, Islamabad.

sundayobserver.lk

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> "The wreckage of the helicopter destroyed in the Bin Laden operation was returned over the weekend and is now back in the United States," said Pentagon spokesman Col Dave Lapan.


Minus a few samples of stealth material pieces sent / sold to the Chinese no doubt. :mid:

----------


## Pol the Pot

Of course.

Where do you think they got the technology for their stealth fighter from?

*U.S. F-117 Stealth Fighter Is Downed in Yugoslavia*

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Of course.
> 
> Where do you think they got the technology for their stealth fighter from?
> 
> *U.S. F-117 Stealth Fighter Is Downed in Yugoslavia*


Don't forget the surveillance technology they got off the EP-3 that went down on Hainan island.

Well up to date on US technology, the chinks.

 :Smile:

----------


## good2bhappy

"Personally, I won't lose sleep that Bin Laden is with the fishes. But Christians ought not to think his assassination was just. Just war ought to make as much sense to Christians as just adultery."
Interesting quote

----------


## Butterfly

Bin Laden will now live a thousand lives

----------


## gbt71fa

> There goes the faintest hope for the GOP in 2012.


Really, well Obama has dropped below 47% approval rating again.... :mid: ....jackwaggon.

----------


## gbt71fa

> Copied and pasted from the BBC website...
> 
> *Al-Qaeda leader Bin Laden 'dead'*
> 
>  Bin Laden is top of the US most wanted list 
> Al-Qaeda founder and leader Osama Bin Laden is dead, US officials say.
> The US is said to be in possession of Bin Laden's body. President Barack Obama is due to speak shortly.
> The al-Qaeda leader was killed in a ground operation in a mansion outside Islamabad in an operation based on US intelligence, reports said.
> Bin Laden is accused of being behind a number of atrocities, including the attacks on New York and Washington on 11 September 2001.
> ...


you euros are pathetic...

----------


## escaped

> Originally Posted by The Muffinman
> 
> 
> Copied and pasted from the BBC website...
> 
> *Al-Qaeda leader Bin Laden 'dead'*
> 
>  Bin Laden is top of the US most wanted list 
> Al-Qaeda founder and leader Osama Bin Laden is dead, US officials say.
> ...


 you are completely right.May I ask which country you're from?

Edit : Oh, don't bother answering,I just looked at the picture in your avatar

----------


## OhOh

> May I ask which country you're from?


He could of course be an roo boy, he finishes his words with the obligatory "os".

----------


## Boon Mee

*Gun That Killed Bin Laden: The Heckler & Koch HK416*



 Heads turn eagerly as painfully bright sunlight pours through an  opening door of a dark New York City warehouse. Smiles mix with the  winces; a celebrity has arrived.Two men in black T-shirts step  into the shadowy building, carrying opposite ends of a large green case;  they place it carefully on a table. One unlocks the clasps and cracks  open the case, revealing two disassembled Heckler & Koch 416 carbine  rifles.
The HK416 is, as of May 2011, the worlds newest  celebrity weapon. Enough off-the-record sources have told reporters that  it is the gun that killed Osama bin Laden that this detail has become  accepted history, even though the Pentagon and HK wont admit it. It is  undoubtedly true that U.S. special forces helped create and use this  weapon, making it a logical choice for the Naval Special Warfare  Development Group operators who swept bin Ladens compound in  Abbottabad, Pakistan.
German weaponmakers designed the HK416  specifically for, and with input from, U.S. Army special forces. Ten  years ago, they wanted a better gun than the M4, which has a reputation  for jamming. (There are those who defend the rifle, but U.S. special  forces wanted something different.) The M16 and M4 both use gas tubes to  launch their projectiles, and keep these gases (along with burned  carbon particles) inside the gun, fouling the receiver. The HK416 uses a  gas piston instead of a gas tube to launch projectiles. This method  allows the weapon to vent hot gas and burned carbon from the rifle with  each shot.
This is the key to the HK416′s reliability, says HK  spokesman Steve Galloway. The reputation for reliability is opening new  doors for the company, too. The U.S. Marine Corps is currently in the  final stages of testing a version of the HK416 as a candidate to replace  some belt-fed light machine guns. Galloway says the company is also  eyeing an even bigger prize for the HK416 in the pending Individual  Carbine Competition, a contest to find a possible replacement for the  U.S. Armys M4 carbines and M16 rifles.

Face Time With the HK416 - The Gun That Killed Bin Laden - Popular Mechanics

I want one! :Smile:

----------


## The Bold Rodney

^^^ Sounds like an excellent piece of kit...and obviously does the job well.




> I want one!


Me too..wonder how much they cost?  :Smile:

----------


## Butterfly

> I want one!


small penis complex ?

----------


## Panda

Interesting thing is that Bin Laden was NEVER wanted by the USA over the 9/11 attacks. There was no evidence to link him to 9/11 according to USAs premier crime investigation authority, the FBI. Bin Laden was however wanted in USA over some US embassy bombings in Africa some years earlier.

A simple search of the US FBI most wanted site or Wikipedia will confirm this.

FBI

Yet I am certain that 99% of the US public and indeed the majority of members here have been lead to believe that Osama Bin Laden was the primary conspirator behind the 9/11 attacks. Something the US Federal Bureau of Investigation does not agree with. 

The point I am making of course, is that the mainstream media and politicans generally have lied to the public in order to create a larger than life bogeyman to justify otherwise unjustifiable wars in far off places.

----------


## ENT

Panda, you are correct in your assumption re bogeyman.
Takes the heat off Bush.

Obama only following Bush's agenda of destroying evidence without any public examination of informations.
Why don't Sepos wake up?

Because most of them(56%) are Creationist believers who think the world, universe and all that only started 4,500 years ago, that evolution is a devil's lie and that the president is the smartest thing since sliced bread, when he's obviously not, judging by his behaviour. He can't even tell a lie without twitching, and his growing arrogance is becoming an embarrassment to the concept of democracy.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> small penis complex ?


Speaking of a "smal penis complex" how is yours "pupa"?

I don't suppose the medication you're taking helps?  :rofl: 

p.s. Having an advance drinks party at home tonight to celebrate tomorrows result, shame you can't make it!  :bananaman:

----------


## Butterfly

> Speaking of a "smal penis complex" how is yours "pupa"?


it's nice to have an online stalker obsessed with my penis ? I assume you are a swallower you little princess queen, 

of course you are  :Smile:

----------


## koman

> *Gun That Killed Bin Laden: The Heckler & Koch HK416*
> 
> 
> 
>  Heads turn eagerly as painfully bright sunlight pours through an opening door of a dark New York City warehouse. Smiles mix with the winces; a celebrity has arrived.Two men in black T-shirts step into the shadowy building, carrying opposite ends of a large green case; they place it carefully on a table. One unlocks the clasps and cracks open the case, revealing two disassembled Heckler & Koch 416 carbine rifles.
> The HK416 is, as of May 2011, the worlds newest celebrity weapon. Enough off-the-record sources have told reporters that it is the gun that killed Osama bin Laden that this detail has become accepted history, even though the Pentagon and HK wont admit it. It is undoubtedly true that U.S. special forces helped create and use this weapon, making it a logical choice for the Naval Special Warfare Development Group operators who swept bin Ladens compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan.
> German weaponmakers designed the HK416 specifically for, and with input from, U.S. Army special forces. Ten years ago, they wanted a better gun than the M4, which has a reputation for jamming. (There are those who defend the rifle, but U.S. special forces wanted something different.) The M16 and M4 both use gas tubes to launch their projectiles, and keep these gases (along with burned carbon particles) inside the gun, fouling the receiver. The HK416 uses a gas piston instead of a gas tube to launch projectiles. This method allows the weapon to vent hot gas and burned carbon from the rifle with each shot.
> This is the key to the HK416′s reliability, says HK spokesman Steve Galloway. The reputation for reliability is opening new doors for the company, too. The U.S. Marine Corps is currently in the final stages of testing a version of the HK416 as a candidate to replace some belt-fed light machine guns. Galloway says the company is also eyeing an even bigger prize for the HK416 in the pending Individual Carbine Competition, a contest to find a possible replacement for the U.S. Armys M4 carbines and M16 rifles.
> 
> ...


German counterbalance to all their "green" technology... :Smile:   Looks and sounds like a new and improved version of the HK MP5 which has been around for years and used extensively by the SAS and other off the radar outfits.  Bit of overkill for the average homeowner and probably a bit pricey too, but I'm sure every drug dealer in Mexico will have one soon enough...

----------


## harrybarracuda

It would seem America's desire to avoid Bin Laden's grave being a focal point for Al Qaeda sympathisers has failed.

----------


## ENT

Big guns, deadly knives, baseball bats and clubs are the status symbols and TOOLS of power deprived fuckwits without an effective outlet for their assertive drives.

I own and am licensed to hold and carry 3 categories of firearms.
A rifle, a shotgun and a hand gun.
I may buy and sell and hold in safe keeping these firearms.

Any twat who wants to use any of these very useful tools for the purpose of self agrandisement is just that, a twat, and a bully.

When I do occasionally meet up with such a person, I have no hesitation in reporting the c**t to the nearest firearms officer I can muster.

Frequently, these ahberant  individuals show psychopathic traits bordering upon the homicidal.

Army do not accept such individuals for conscription or combat, because they are "rambos".

Firearm control is only given to non ego driven personalities, these days.

The desire to express psychopathic disorder is usually limited to gun clubs and paintball games, which are a huge load of fun, where one can express one's megalomania in excelcis, without actually killing anyone.

The police and some gang clubs do in fact engage in such contests, as has been known in NZ.
Takes the heat off.

----------


## harrybarracuda

A gentle reminder as to why the American gentlemen did not notify the Pakistani gentlemen of their impending social visit to Abbottabad.




> US officials  believe Pakistan's spy agency was behind the killing of a Pakistani  journalist who reported that Islamist militants had infiltrated the  military, the New York Times reported.
>  The newspaper quoted two senior officials as saying that intelligence  showed that senior members of Pakistan's powerful Inter-Services  Intelligence (ISI) agency ordered the killing of Saleem Shahzad, 40, to  muzzle criticism.
>  The report was likely to further raise tensions between the uneasy  allies following the US commando raid north of Islamabad in May that  killed Al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden and was carried out without  Pakistan's knowledge.
>  One of the US officials quoted by the Times described the actions of  the ISI -- which has historic ties to Islamist militants in neighboring  Afghanistan and disputed Kashmir -- as "barbaric and unacceptable."
>  It quoted another senior official as saying: "Every indication is  that this was a deliberate, targeted killing that was most likely meant  to send shock waves through Pakistan?s journalist community and civil  society."
>  The ISI has denied as "baseless" allegations that it was involved in the murder of Shahzad.
>  The reporter, who worked for an Italian news agency and a Hong  Kong-registered news site, went missing en route to a television talk  show and his body was found last week south of the capital, bearing  marks of torture.
>  A senior South Asia researcher at Human Rights Watch, Ali Dayan  Hasan, said that the 40-year-old had recently complained of threats from  the ISI, adding: "In the past the ISI has been involved in similar  incidents."
>  Shahzad disappeared two days after writing an investigative report in  Asia Times Online saying Al-Qaeda carried out a recent attack on a  naval air base to avenge the arrest of naval officials held on suspicion  of Al-Qaeda links.
> ...

----------


## Chairman Mao

> *Gun That Killed Bin Laden: The Heckler & Koch HK416*


How many Yankerikkkan soldiers has it killed?  :mid:

----------


## S Landreth

Bin Laden Turned in by Informant  Courier Was Cover Story

Forget the cover story of waterboarding-leads-to-courier-leads-to bin Laden. Sources in the intelligence community tell me that after years of trying and one bureaucratically insane near-miss in Yemen, the US government killed OBL because a Pakistani intelligence officer came forward to collect the approximately $25 million reward from the State Departments Rewards for Justice program.

The informant was a walk-in.

link: Bin Laden Turned in by Informant -- Courier Was Cover Story | MyFDL

----------


## OhOh

Also reports that the helicopter which left behind it's tail rotor was shot down by the ISI killing some of the "seals", reportedly the bodies of those killed were frozen and on board this week in the Chinook taken out by a Super RPG.

----------


## Butterfly

more likely it was Bin Laden that was frozen

I bet he is resting in a freezer somewhere,

----------


## OhOh

He had been frozen many years ago. He had to warmed up prior to the sea burial otherwise he would have been washed ashore.

It's all going to be in the film Carrabow is co producing with me. He has yet to sign up to the deal but he keeps making noises like "your fucking drowning me"

----------


## OhOh

> more likely it was Bin Laden that was frozen
> 
> I bet he is resting in a freezer somewhere,


You mean like the "queen" in The Alien, so they can clone more of him to keep the war/film series going? "Alien VI and the 22 Virgins", snappy title eh?

----------


## Neo

Yeah I can just imagine... 

An Oh Oh Carrabow Production
In Association With 
TEAKDOOR
Presents



Osama Bin Laden
-
My Part In His Downfall

----------


## Butterfly

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> 
> more likely it was Bin Laden that was frozen
> 
> I bet he is resting in a freezer somewhere,
> 
> 
> You mean like the "queen" in The Alien, so they can clone more of him to keep the war/film series going? "Alien VI and the 22 Virgins", snappy title eh?


I am glad you mention Aliens, because Osama is in the freezer right next to the ones we found in Roswell

----------


## OhOh

^^At least you got the billing right. As I said carrabow has yet to sign the agreement, he has to wait for his fingers to become usable. It's known problem with extracting fingernails




> I am glad you mention Aliens


Not so hot on the 22 Virgins then, no matter we have time for a rethink on the title. I may need some assistance in finding the certified 22 virgins though.

----------


## OhOh

Osama bin Laden 'protected by Pakistan in return for Saudi cash' - Telegraph

_"Raelynn Hillhouse, an American security analyst, claims his whereabouts were finally revealed when a Pakistani intelligence officer came forward to claim the $25m (15 million) bounty on the al-Qaeda leader's head. Her version, based on evidence from sources in what she calls the "intelligence community", contradicts the official account that bin Laden was tracked down through his trusted courier.
Pakistani officials have always denied that bin Laden was sheltered or that Islamabad had any knowledge of the secret mission that killed him.
But Dr Hillhouse, who is known for her links to private military contractors that work extensively with the CIA, says Pakistan gave permission for a covert mission which would then be covered up by claiming bin Laden had been killed in a drone strike.
"The [Inter-Services Intelligence] officer came forward to claim the substantial reward and to broker US citizenship for his family," she writes on her intelligence blog, The Spy Who Billed Me.

"My sources tell me that the informant claimed that the Saudis were paying off the Pakistani military and intelligence (ISI) to essentially shelter and keep bin Laden under house arrest in Abbottabad, a city with such a high concentration of military that I'm told there's no equivalent in the US." After confirming bin Laden's presence in the military town, the US approached Pakistan's military leaders securing their co-operation in return for cash and a chance to avoid public humiliation.
The theory, if true, would explain how American black hawk helicopters were then able to fly deep into Pakistan territory in May without encountering resistance. The plan only unravelled when one of the helicopters crash-landed, blowing the cover story.
"The co-operation was why there were no troops in Abottabad," writes Dr Hillhouse. "It had always seemed very far-fetched to me that a helicopter could crash and later be destroyed in an area with such high military concentration without the Pakistanis noticing." In the immediate aftermath of the raid, some residents of Abbottabad, where bin Laden had lived for five years, said they had received mysterious visits a night earlier warning them to stay inside with their lights off.
However, a senior Pakistani security official denied that the ISI had sheltered bin Laden.
"We don't use toilet paper – we wash," he said. "But toilet paper is all this theory is good for."
A spokesman for the US department of defense said: "We have no additional operational details, or comments on operational details, to make at this time."_

----------


## Butterfly

> I may need some assistance in finding the certified 22 virgins though.


in LA ? that might be Mission Impossible

go for the virgin porn stars, aka first timers as they are called on the Internet, next best choice  :Smile:

----------


## Carrabow

> Yeah I can just imagine... 
> 
> An Oh Oh Carrabow Production
> In Association With 
> TEAKDOOR
> Presents 
>  
> Osama Bin Laden
> -
> My Part In His Downfall


  :rofl:   You just bought yourself a GREEN

Very Creative ! Cheers....

----------


## Carrabow

> ^^At least you got the billing right. As I said carrabow has yet to sign the agreement, he has to wait for his fingers to become usable. It's known problem with extracting fingernails
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> ...


 
That was my DOWNFALL  :rofl:

----------


## Tom Sawyer

Osama bin Laden is dead! Long live Osama bin laden!

Really.. sea buriel, etc. Pentagon 757 jet crash, It's all bullshit - always has been. But it has worked a charm hasn't it? Thousands of zealots, both muslim and christian, now believe it and are willing to die for the cause. A self-fulfilling prophecy - as simplistic in design as it is evil in its outcomes.

The winner is of course the system that is 'blameless' - "who me?" said the corporate-state that displaced the nation-state. "You must protect me frm the hordes! It's in your best interest!" he added - as he handed army recruitment application forms to those who'd just recently lost their homes in the credit "downturn"

----------


## rickschoppers

How much longer is everyone going to rehash yesterday's news? I think it is time to move on to more recent events and bury this thread as Osama was buried at sea. What say you? :deadhorsebig:

----------


## Carrabow

> How much longer is everyone going to rehash yesterday's news? I think it is time to move on to more recent events and bury this thread as Osama was buried at sea. What say you?


Haven't you heard? Sources say he is in Baghdad, providing assistance to Muqtada al-Sadr. The new alliance is now referred to as the Tali-whacked.  :Smile:  They are in the process of resurrecting Saddam.

----------


## rickschoppers

> Originally Posted by rickschoppers
> 
> 
> How much longer is everyone going to rehash yesterday's news? I think it is time to move on to more recent events and bury this thread as Osama was buried at sea. What say you?
> 
> 
> Haven't you heard? Sources say he is in Baghdad, providing assistance to Muqtada al-Sadr. The new alliance is now referred to as the Tali-whacked.  They are in the process of resurrecting Saddam.


 :smiley laughing:  :smiley laughing:  :smiley laughing:  Must be a slow day Carrabow.

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by Carrabow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by rickschoppers
> ...


Yep slow day, hello brother the foot is much better. Thank you

----------


## rickschoppers

^
Good news.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Bless, they're as mad as a box of frogs, but they are a hoot:






> A 9/11 children’s colouring book featuring pictures of the execution of a cowering Osama bin Laden and the burning twin towers has sparked outrage among Muslims in America.
> 
> We Shall Never Forget 9/11: The Kids’ Book Of Freedom has been launched by Missouri publisher Really Big Coloring Books, which says it is ‘designed to be a tool that parents can use to help teach children about the facts surrounding 9/11’. 
> 9/11 colouring book The colouring book depicts the execution of Osama bin Laden (Picture: Big Coloring Books)
> 
> One page of the book, which costs $6.99, shows bin Laden hiding behind a woman wearing a hijab as he is shot by a Navy SEAL. Text accompanying the picture reads: 'Being the elusive character that he was, and after hiding out with his terrorist buddies in Pakistan and Afghanistan, American soldiers finally locate the terrorist leader Osama bin Laden.
> 
> 'Children, the truth is, these terrorist acts were done by freedom-hating radical Islamic Muslim extremists. These crazy people hate the American way of life because we are FREE and our society is FREE.'
> 
> ...


Link

----------


## Chairman Mao

Ex-American admin are lucky they were never caught for setting up 9/11.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Ex-American admin are lucky they were never caught for setting up 9/11.


And as for that dodgy Moon landing....

----------


## Jools

Once again, the Muslims are attempting to set the agenda. Will America and the West cave in once again??? Probably. These stone age rejects would be radioactive for the next thousand years in any sane world. ::spin::

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> One page of the book, which costs $6.99, shows bin Laden hiding behind a woman wearing a hijab as he is shot by a Navy SEAL.


Funny or what!  :rofl:

----------


## bourbonstreet

Collector's item for sure. I'm ordering a case right now!

----------


## billy the kid

he will need to watch out tho.

----------


## Cujo

A bit gruesome for a kids colouring book, really. 
What the fuck is the matter with these people.

----------


## Chairman Mao

Condition 'em young.

They're more likely to believe.  :Sad:

----------


## Neo

I want one!  :Yup:

----------


## pickel

If right wing nutters can't see anything wrong with that being in a kids coloring book, that country is truly fucked.

----------


## ENT

The meso American blok is still anxiously running around in circles barking and bighting against anything unorthodox.
Deary me.

Don't rehash yesterday's news cos we got the good oil, da truth from our glorious leader, the Pres, da commandah!
Hoo iz yoo ta dare question da commandah!!You iz un American, un PATRIOTIC!!
Wow.

One day they will wake up to the fact that Santa Clause doesn't exist, that the Easter Bunny is a myth, that pretty girls are good and kind, that the world is older than 4,500 years and that there is is no life after death in a heaven according to ^$78 and his offsider the prophet%43^+..
If not, ya'll go ta hell, purgatory and damnation and all that.

Nothing else exists outside of the Bible/Koran/Baghavad Ghita/&,  (Believe me or be damned).

Other groups believe only their lot get to some sort of just reward in an afterlife.
Nothing else exists outside of their holy book, believe them.
And so on.

Funny lot.
Yesterday gave rise to today.

----------


## Jools

> If right wing nutters can't see anything wrong with that being in a kids coloring book, that country is truly fucked.


There is nothing remotely "right wing" about outrage over being attacked without provocation by insane religious types. To a Muslim..."provocation" can mean ANYTHING. These people do NOT think like most of humanity and should be separated from it by any means necessary. Western countries are bending over and letting these scum bugger us and many are beginning to question that arrangement. It's a simple enough concept: If you shoot at me, I will shoot back....with deadly intent.

----------


## Neo

> Western countries are bending over and letting these scum bugger us and many are beginning to question that arrangement.


Where? How? Who? 

If anyone is getting buggered it is the ME by the West (US) or are being helped out by the West (EU)..

Where exactly are you getting buggered by these 'scum' Jools?

----------


## Albert Shagnasty

> Condition 'em young.
> 
> They're more likely to believe.


Aye.. there's the rub  :gw bush:

----------


## Takeovers

> There is nothing remotely "right wing" about outrage over being attacked without provocation by insane religious types.


There is everything wrong with a sick coloring book like this, or with persons who design or like it.

----------


## Marmite the Dog

Backward fucking monkeys.

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by pickel
> 
> 
> If right wing nutters can't see anything wrong with that being in a kids coloring book, that country is truly fucked.
> 
> 
> There is nothing remotely "right wing" about outrage over being attacked without provocation by insane religious types. To a Muslim..."provocation" can mean ANYTHING. These people do NOT think like most of humanity and should be separated from it by any means necessary. Western countries are bending over and letting these scum bugger us and many are beginning to question that arrangement. It's a simple enough concept: If you shoot at me, I will shoot back....with deadly intent.


That's not the point dipstick.
The point is who the fuck gives kids colouring books depicting people being shot and killed.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> The point is who the fuck gives kids colouring books depicting people being shot and killed.


Hamas. And they do kid's cartoon shows with a big giant white rabbit who "eats all the jews".

----------


## Cujo

> The point is who the fuck gives kids colouring books depicting people being shot and killed.
> 			
> 		
> 
> Hamas. And they do kid's cartoon shows with a big giant white rabbit who "eats all the jews".


Great, so you're happy we sink to that level are you?

----------


## Jools

> Originally Posted by Jools
> 
> 
> Western countries are bending over and letting these scum bugger us and many are beginning to question that arrangement.
> 
> 
> Where? How? Who? 
> 
> If anyone is getting buggered it is the ME by the West (US) or are being helped out by the West (EU)..
> ...


The same way YOU are being buggered by them. We ALL have to show "sensitivity" to insane Muslim beliefs. We are required to cower and backtrack every time they become "offended" (which is every day of the week and for any reason) the social deck has been stacked against non-Muslims by those who want to destroy us. I don't recall any recent suicide bomb attacks on the ME by western countries. That's a Muslim tactic. One which the West needs to make them pay DEARLY for. :tieme:

----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by Neo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Jools
> ...


I'M offended by this claptrap and I'm only a little bit muslim.
Really, you can't justify this, this is putting 'us' on the same level as 'them'.
  Ifwe're not better than that then we have lost the plot.

----------


## rickschoppers

^
about as funny as the London riots, eh?

----------


## Chairman Mao

> It's a simple enough concept: If you shoot at me, I will shoot back....with deadly intent.


So that why the muzzies did it.  :ourrules: 

About time america was really hit then eh.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				The point is who the fuck gives kids colouring books depicting people being shot and killed.
> ...


Where the fuck did I say that?

----------


## Neo

> Originally Posted by Neo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Jools
> ...


So fucking deluded that you could only be an American.. 

I'm not cowering, backtracking or being buggered in reality or in my imagination. Who is this 'us' that the cards are stacked against? Not me or anyone I support or subscribe to.. then I can at least say I support and subscribe to rational thinking. 

800,000 civilian deaths in Iraq a conservative estimate that only covers the invasion and period of occupation.. how many hundreds of thousands died in the 10 years of sanctions...? How many millions have had their lives ruined by the losses, by injury or destruction..? 

An entire village wiped out at wedding party by precision guided bombs in Afghanistan.. a Mai Lai massacre at the touch of a button...

Oh poor you Jools, are you feeling buggered..?  :Crying: 
Switch off the 24hr news-feed and get a life.

----------


## Jools

> Originally Posted by Jools
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Neo
> ...


Ha ha ha...This is certainly not the FIRST time I've been accused of being an American based on having sane beliefs in regards to Muslims. I'm British, although I'm VERY temporarily living in the USA, whilst I recover from a business failure.
Muslims have ruined Britain, or  more accurately we ALLOWED them to ruin it by sitting on our collective arses while the barstewards infested every facet of British society. However, if it will grant you some much-needed ammunition, you can count me as an honorary Merkan. :bananaman:

----------


## Neo

> Muslims have ruined Britain


 :Dance:

----------


## who

> Originally Posted by Chairman Mao
> 
> 
> Ex-American admin are lucky they were never caught for setting up 9/11.
> 
> 
> And as for that dodgy Moon landing....


---- Good on yuh cudda ----
.

----------


## who

> If right wing nutters can't see anything wrong with that being in a kids coloring book, that country is truly fucked.



---- You are truly dim ----

----------


## WujouMao

[quote=harrybarracuda;1862381]




> These crazy people hate the American way of life because we are FREE and our society is FREE.'


No. more like americans are a real pain in the neck and like to think they are better than anyone else.




> I want one!


Found it for you, http://www.amazon.com/Shall-Never-Fo...5182614&sr=8-3

Main site, and the americans even spell colour in brackets! http://www.coloringbook.com/

Click the book on the main page to find the sample pages from the book. George bush looks as dull as John Major

----------


## GRUMPY

Novel About Bali Bombings Spreads Graphic Message of Peace and Regret

*Jakarta. * “From the time I was instructed to bring the  bomb to the US Consulate in Renon, Paddy’s Cafe and Sari Club, there was  already doubt in my heart. Is this really jihad?” 

This  statement uttered in court by Ali Imron, the sole surviving bomber  behind the deadly Bali attacks in 2002 who is serving a life sentence,  will soon be read by thousands of teenagers in a graphic novel that aims  to show the country’s youth the devastating effects of radicalization  and extremism, and that the way of Islam is peace. 

“Ketika  Nurani Bicara” (“When the Conscience Speaks”) will be published next  month by Lazuardi Birru, a nongovernmental organization focused on  deradicalizing youth. 

“Each one of us needs to learn from  history. People, particularly children and young teens, love comics,”  Dhyah Madya Ruth, chairwoman of Lazuardi Birru, told the Jakarta Globe  on Tuesday. 

“By using a graphic novel as the medium, the message  we are trying to convey will be so much easier for young people to  digest.” 

The comic will have an initial print run of 10,000 copies. 

“At  least 8,000 copies will be distributed nationally free of charge, with  four copies going to places such as schools and public libraries” Dhyah  said. 

“The remaining 2,000 will be made available in bookstores such as Gramedia for Rp 35,000 [$4],” she said. 

The graphic novel will also be made available in an e-book format for download. 

It  starts with how the Oct. 12, 2002, attacks were planned, chronicling  Ali’s journey into terrorism. It recounts the horrific car bombs that  hit two prominent night spots in Bali, killing 202 people, including 88  Australians and 38 Indonesians. 

It follows the investigation and Ali’s eventual arrest, trial and conviction. 

The  story also features Haji Agus Bambang, a Balinese Muslim who helped  evacuate victims; Hayati Eka Laksmi, a Muslim woman whose husband was  killed; and Ustad Reza, a fictional Islamic cleric who counters dogmas  used by radical Muslim organizations to justify their acts. 

“We  took the Bali bombing incident as the inspiration to create this book  because we know there are so many sides to the story of the 2002 Bali  bombing,” Dhyah explained. 

“We portray Ali as a man who later  bitterly regrets his actions. Haji Agus, meanwhile, is a Muslim and the  humanist in the story because he went out of his way to help victims. 

“Then  there is the difficult struggle of Hayati to explain to her children  why their father had to die, even though they were Muslims themselves.” 

The  novel took a year of research, she said, including interviews with  victims, terrorism experts and officials related to the chain of events  that led to the bombings. 

“We have no intention to turn a profit out of this,” Dhyah said. “The goal is to spread the message as wide as possible. 

“Aside  from having the novel in an e-book format so that it is easier for  people to download, we are also open to other publishers who would like  to help us with distribution of these books.” 

The graphic novel will also be translated into Sundanese, Javanese and Malay. 

“We are not looking to distribute this outside Indonesia yet. Our main concern is still the youth in Indonesia,” Dhyah said. 

The novel is mainly aimed at Muslim youths aged 14 to 20. 

“Our target is the group that is also being targeted by radicals,” she said. 

Aside from the novel, Lazuardi Birru is also using online media and TV, including a documentary, to reach out. 

“A  15-episode documentary and a daily Islamic sermon that will convey  messages of peaceful Islam will be aired during Ramadan on TVOne,” Dhyah  said. 

“The strategy for our media campaign is to use all media  that the radicals have been using, so this includes television, online  and print.”

Novel About Bali Bombings Spreads Graphic Message of Peace and Regret | The Jakarta Globe

----------


## pickel

> Originally Posted by pickel
> 
> 
> If right wing nutters can't see anything wrong with that being in a kids coloring book, that country is truly fucked.
> 
> 
> 
> ---- You are truly dim ----



So you think it's ok to put that shit in kids coloring books then? Twat.

----------


## billy the kid

maybe an updated version of the Big Bad Wolf
who huffed and puffed.

----------


## FlyFree

> Really, you can't justify this, this is putting 'us' on the same level as 'them'.
>   Ifwe're not better than that then we have lost the plot.


It's OK. The spineless libtard turds have taught us we are all the same and on the same level, so we can stone, behead and go crazy with whatever kiddie-indoctrination we may feel like.

Chill man, it's all good. Go slap a chick around.

----------


## Moonraker

> A 9/11 childrens colouring book featuring pictures of the execution of a cowering Osama bin Laden


Not quite sure what to say.

----------


## FailSafe

Do you really think a lot of Americans are going to run out and buy this book for their kids?  Are you fucking kidding me?  Yeah, a few nuts might do it, but for the most part this is a publicity stunt and a chance for a hater to try and make some sort of point, and some adults might pick it up for themselves for a novelty or a collectible.

This guy has the right to publish pretty much anything he wants, but that doesn't mean it's going to be a best-seller- people in the US buy their kids stuff featuring 'Dora the Explorer' and 'Thomas the Tank Engine', not coloring books featuring graphic violence and hate.

----------


## FlyFree

WTF is Dora and what does she explore.... Maybe I shouldn't ask....

----------


## FailSafe

> WTF is Dora and what does she explore.... Maybe I shouldn't ask....


Beats the hell out of me, but she's all over my niece's room in the form of books, dolls, posters, etc.

----------


## Takeovers

> Originally Posted by FlyFree
> 
> 
> WTF is Dora and what does she explore.... Maybe I shouldn't ask....
> 
> 
> Beats the hell out of me, but she's all over my niece's room in the form of books, dolls, posters, etc.


Am I completely off the mark when I say Dora is SesameStreet for the simple minded?

No offence intended.

----------


## FailSafe

> Originally Posted by FailSafe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by FlyFree
> ...


Perhaps, but my niece is four years old- she's not quite ready for Stephen Hawking and string theory. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## FlyFree

> Originally Posted by FailSafe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by FlyFree
> ...



Sesame Street isn't for the simple minded?

----------


## FlyFree

> my niece is four years old- she's not quite ready for Stephen Hawking and string theory.



Does she have her own gun yet?

----------


## FailSafe

> Originally Posted by FailSafe
> 
> 
> 
> my niece is four years old- she's not quite ready for Stephen Hawking and string theory.
> 
> 
> 
> Does she own her own gun yet?


No, but she does have her own iPad, and she's better with it than I am.

----------


## Takeovers

> Sesame Street isn't for the simple minded?


It is high brow intellectual. Compared to Dora.

Actually I believe SesameStreet is a good thing. At least miles better than thos standard cartoons.

----------


## Morden

I don't know what's more sad, the blatant capitalisation on the 9/11 tragedy, the distortion of the truth or the naive jingoistic responses of some posters.

If anyone wants to read serious and properly researched work on the subject of 9/11, read the two books by David Ray Griffin - The New Pearl Harbor and The New People Harbor Revisited.

Perhaps, though, it's OK for a publisher to cash in. Bush and Cheney did. But offering this stuff to children is immoral and aimed to inflame rather than seek peace for future generations.

Perhaps the reality is that it's written for gullible and poorly educated adult Americans. They will be the ones who shout, 'We should stop being the World's policemen' while the rest of the World cries, 'Yes, please'.

----------


## Neo

> Perhaps the reality is that it's written for gullible and poorly  educated adult Americans. They will be the ones who shout, 'We should  stop being the World's policemen' while the rest of the World cries,  'Yes, please'.



The 'readers' will be more concerned about keeping the color inside the lines I think.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Hamas. And they do kid's cartoon shows with a big giant white rabbit who "eats all the jews".


Just goes to show you how fucked up the muzzies are "arry" everyone knows (or should do) that rabbits are vegetarians! :smiley laughing:

----------


## ENT

About as funny.

----------


## Hampsha

Hes back: Film raises Zombie bin Laden from the dead | The Raw Story

----------


## Tom Sawyer

..funny how there is NO evidence OBL was burried at sea. It's bullshit - he's always been the bogeyman - he's Ronald McDonald - the character that did/didn't exist. Some just can't see that cause they've bought the media story from the very inception.

----------


## HansuMan

> Hes back: Film raises Zombie bin Laden from the dead | The Raw Story


_ the situation has since deteriorated,_


*UPDATE: Giant Bin Laden Destroys New York, Washington*

*500-Foot Terrorist Emerges From Sea To Wreak Havoc On U.S.*


 _
Citizens look on in terror as the massive bin Laden destroys New York City with ease._


         NEW YORKJust weeks after his body was buried at sea, Osama  bin Laden burst forth from the ocean depths early this morning, rising  to the monstrous height of 500 feet and rapidly making his way down the  East Coast of the United States in a rampage expected to leave hundreds  of thousands dead and easily eclipse 9/11 as the worst terrorist attack  in U.S. history.




_The towering, furious al-Qaeda leader 
__emerges from the ocean._


 Currently, much of New York City and Washington, D.C., including the  Empire State Building, the White House, and the Capitol Building, lay in  ruins, with overwhelmed rescue crews struggling to assist a country  ravaged by the gigantic, irate al-Qaeda leader.


 "Our nation faces its gravest challenge yet," a visibly shaken  President Obama said, interrupting his prepared remarks to both houses  of British Parliament in London. "I cannot say that we will prevail,  only that we will fight to the last."


 "May God help us all," Obama added as the walls and ceiling shook around him.
 The first stirrings of bin Laden were felt in the form of early  morning tremors off the Atlantic Coast that reportedly rattled windows  as far inland as Ohio. Shortly thereafter, stunned witnesses from a  nearby fishing vessel reported that bin Laden, in full robes and with a  beard described as "at least 100 feet long," suddenly rose from beneath  the water.




_The gigantic bin Laden, seconds before pulverizing 
__the person who took this photograph._ 


 Within an hour, a formidable assembly of U.S. fighter jets and  battleships began engaging bin Laden approximately 25 miles off the  Atlantic Coast, an encounter officials conceded has so far done nothing  to slow the progress of the colossal terrorist mastermind. On the  contrary, sources are reporting that bin Laden seems to be absorbing the  bombardment and growing both angrier and, shockingly, larger with each  strike.


 By the time the unscathed bin Laden entered New York Harbor and flung the
 Statue of Liberty into Lower Manhattan, some estimates put his height at 800 feet.
 "He seemed to feed off our weaponry," Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Mike Mullen said.


"Everything we did to hurt him only seemed to nourish him. We  pounded him with enough shells to destroy a small country, and it just  made him stronger."


 "I don't know how we stop him," Mullen continued. "I just don't know."
 When Bin Laden reached land, he reportedly headed straight for Ground  Zero, where witnesses said he seemed to emit a low gurgling chuckle  before howling "Death to the infidels!" and tearing apart the steel  superstructure of the partially built tower at One World Trade Center.  After crushing nearby Trinity Church, which had inspired many by  surviving 9/11 relatively undamaged, bin Laden made his way north, his  gargantuan sandaled feet trampling buildings and growing slick with  blood as he stomped upon the many residents who were unable to evacuate  in time.


 Maria Kushner, one of the lucky few to escape via the Coast Guard  vessels arrayed along the East River, told reporters she looked back to  land and saw bin Laden using the Empire State Building as a club to  pulverize the U.N.'s headquarters.


 "There were all these soldiers shooting at him, but he was  relentless," Kushner said. "Just smashing and smashing. It's like he  killed 3,000 people on 9/11 and finally came back for everyone else."


 "Isn't that fucker supposed to be dead?" added Kushner, who told  reporters she would never forget looking out her office window on the  72nd story of a Midtown skyscraper and seeing nothing but bin Laden's  enormous eye looking back at her. "Why isn't he dead?"


 Shortly before noon, bin Laden had left a trail of carnage through  most of the Mid-Atlantic states, often scooping up helpless motorists  from jammed highways and devouring them by the handful. As he entered  Washington, D.C., sources said the terrifying giant, who had been  pounded by combat forces all morning, had grown to twice his original  height and stood close to 1,000 feet tall.


 Although prime targets in the nation's capital had been evacuated by  the time bin Laden arrived, military forces could do nothing but watch  as bin Laden flipped the Pentagon 50 feet in the air, swatted the  Capitol dome into the Potomac, and, with eerie deliberateness and  precision, held his palm over the White House and slowly flattened it.


 In a statement posted on a militant website, al-Qaeda celebrated the  devastation and said the United States was paying the price for not  heeding its warning.
 "We have said that Osama bin Laden, may God have mercy on him, would  be far mightier dead than alive," the statement read. "Did you fools  really think we were talking about martyrdom or something? Really, how  could you not see this coming?"


 At press time, bin Laden had reduced most of Charlottesville, VA to  rubble as he headed southeast, presumably toward SEAL Team Six  headquarters near Virginia Beach.


***

Incidentally, *Emanuel bin Goldstein had been dead since Dec 2001*; and the SEAL team who participated in last year's farcical _"bin Goldstein assassination"_ charade, were *permanently silenced* a short time after.  :Wink: 

Don't fret though, the War On Terror Hoax for Israel will go on,  ::chitown:: 


*Architects & Engineers:* 
* * 
* Solving the Mystery of* 
* World Trade Center Building 7*

----------


## Cujo

You've got to be shitting me.
Those Americans are really fucked up.

----------


## Sailing into trouble

SO what is a terror attack?

London madrid bombings?Yip no problem innocent people killed at random for political, religious  motivation. 9-11 certainly. But then how many innocents have been killed in " raghead land" by us lot. I wonder what our reaction if these deaths had been in our western countries. 

Dead or Alive he has sown the seeds of not only hate but also the reality that us westerners are not unbeatable and are vulnerable. His legacy will last far beyound our lives.

----------


## Mid

* Bin Laden's family arrive in Saudi Arabi* 
Saturday, April 28, 2012

 
_Three widows, nine children and two grandchildren of Osama bin Laden have been deported from Pakistan._

  Three widows, nine children and two grandchildren of Osama bin Laden  have arrived in Saudi Arabia after being deported from Pakistan.

Three widows, nine children and two grandchildren were deported on a chartered plane. 

'All  members first go to Saudi Arabia, where Osama's youngest, Yemeni widow,  Amal al-Sadeh, and her five children will stay for some days to deal  with some family inheritance matters and commitments, then move to  Yemen,' the lawyer said. 

A court jailed three widows and two  adult daughters of bin Laden for 45 days on April 2 for illegally  entering Pakistan. They completed their sentences on April 17 because of  time they had already spent in detention, but their deportation was  delayed due to documentation problems. 

The family members were  detained by Pakistani personnel after Osama bin Laden was killed by US  forces on May 2 in Abbottabad, 61 kilometres north-east of the capital  Islamabad. 

The family members were driven amid heavy security  from Islamabad to the nearby garrison city of Rawalpindi, where they  were put on the plane to Saudi Arabia.

bigpondnews.com

----------


## Boon Mee

Additional news on the OBL front, we now see how Hope & Change really work!   :Smile: 

President who tried to prosecute the men who waterboarded KSM to find Bin Laden now spiking the football over killing Bin Laden. 

Shouldn't be too hard on him.  He doesnt have anything else to brag about.

And,  who can forget but those with Revisionist History agenda,  eh?

FLASHBACK: Obama Campaign Accused Clinton Of Using Bin Laden To Score Political Points In 2008.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

Have any of OBL's wives, children, etc, ever been interviewed since the alleged 'capture/killing' of him?

----------


## harrybarracuda

^ That might reveal just how many of America's "friends" actually contributed money to the OBL great satan fighting fund. 

It's never going to happen.

However, if the military and the CIA have access to the appropriate documentation, it should guarantee their budgets through this and the next one or two administrations, right?

 :Smile:

----------


## Butterfly

he is still alive, don't listen to US propaganda

----------


## ENT

How friendships and alliances change over time,eh?

Once a trusted ally of USA and the Bush family and administration, even part of a CIA programme in the Afghan war against the former USSR, Bin Laden is conveniently "disappeared" in a clandestine SEALS op. in Pakistan.
No proof, no body, no pics, nothing, just spin from Obama and the US war machine.

One damn good reason that publishing the evidences to support the claim of Bin Laden's death would "endanger national security", as they so euphemistically call the risk, means that if the info were released it would expose the Pentagon/Obama/Bush lie about 9/11.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

International relations at state to state level were never too naive I guess. But the average person is now aware that they can trust no one including their own leaders in the most 'free' countries. The future is much darker because of it.

----------


## Butterfly

about OBL death,

BBC News - White House in first detailed comments on drone strikes

----------


## Butterfly

looks like a new job for the OBL team, to revenge their master

BBC News - One World Trade Center becomes New York&#039;s tallest building

----------


## Boon Mee

> looks like a new job for the OBL team, to revenge their master


Well, as George W. Bush so well stated:  "Bring It On"!  :Smile:

----------


## TizMe

about as effective as "mission accomplished"

----------


## ENT

> looks like a new job for the OBL team, to revenge their master
> 
> BBC News - One World Trade Center becomes New York's tallest building


Likely they'll use drones this time.
The last time they couldn't even fly a Cessna.

----------


## harrybarracuda

^ Funnily enough they do have a spare one at the moment.

 :smiley laughing:

----------


## ENT

Yes, read about that one, they've made a copy of the one that landed in Iran  :Smile:

----------


## PlanK

> looks like a new job for the OBL team, to revenge their master
> 
> BBC News - One World Trade Center becomes New York's tallest building



This time they can pre-build the explosives into it rather than having to do it the weekend before.

 :mid:

----------


## Tom Sawyer

Well it's been ten years or more since 9/11 when three buildings collapsed within their own shadows' perimeters from 'fire'. Any others  - anywhere in the world - done the same since then? Twenty years from now questioning the story of 9/11 will be like questioning the Holocaust (the US will need to make 9/11 - Nine-Eleven) with capital letters - for importance of legend - just like the Hollow-Cost.
 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## socal

> Well it's been ten years or more since 9/11 when three buildings collapsed within their own shadows' perimeters from 'fire'. Any others  - anywhere in the world - done the same since then? Twenty years from now questioning the story of 9/11 will be like questioning the Holocaust (the US will need to make 9/11 - Nine-Eleven) with capital letters - for importance of legend - just like the Hollow-Cost.


Nice pin you have... How many bulidings the size of the WTC have been hit by 600mhp cruise missiles ?

----------


## Bazzy

This guy reckons he has found his body. I am sceptical.

This Treasure Hunter Says He Has Located Bin Laden’s Body | Gizmodo Australia

----------


## harrybarracuda

^ I've got some diaries written by Hitler if he's in the market.

----------


## Sailing into trouble

So which sick bastard would want to dig up a body from the Ocean. Free enterprise knows no end!

----------


## good2bhappy

> Have any of OBL's wives, children, etc, ever been interviewed since the alleged 'capture/killing' of him?


By Pakistan

----------


## Boon Mee



----------


## Cujo

> Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer
> 
> Have any of OBL's wives, children, etc, ever been interviewed since the alleged 'capture/killing' of him?
> 
> 
> By Pakistan


The Paki's have recently deported them to their country of choice, Saudi Arabia.

----------


## Mid

*Bin Laden raid nets one intel employee big bonus*
Arielle Hawkins
May 18th, 2012

 

The identities of the Navy SEALs who raided Osama bin Laden's compound remain a mystery, but one man who helped get them there is getting his due financially.

 An employee with the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency, has won  a Presidential Distinguished Rank Award for analysis of satellite  imagery of the terrorist's compound in Pakistan.

 The staffer "oversaw and validated trade craft and methodologies  applied in the final pursuit of and successful raid on the Osama bin  Laden compound in Abbottabad," according to an announcement about the  financial reward from the Senior Executives Association, a non-profit  group which runs the award ceremony.

 The satellite imagery interpretation was used to create a built-to-scale model of the al Qaeda leader's hide out. This model was then used in White House senior strategy briefings, helping the Navy SEALs to map out their May 2011 attack, according to the the president of the association.

 The "singular accomplishment is probably the most stunning and the  one that will produce shock and awe for most Americans" said Carol  Bonosaro, President of the SEA.

 The employee was nominated for the award by the NGA, Bonosaro told Security Clearance.

 The award recipients, each earned a lump sum bonus equaling 35  percent of their normal annual salaries. They received their honors at  an event last month at the State Department.

 The Presidential Rank Awards, established by Congress in 1978, are  given out annually. The number of awardees is capped by Congress but in  2011 the Obama administration further reduced the number of awardees  citing economy.

security.blogs.cnn.com

----------


## Tom Sawyer

He forgot to place Ronald McDonald in the garden and a Starbucks at the entrance.

----------


## ENT

Brilliant piece of work!

Too bad the SEALs fwkd up with their chopper and plopped it on the perimeter wall, eh.

With a pic like that to go by how could they go wrong?

Might have been a Paki driver though.   :Smile:

----------


## Lantern

Too bad the SEALs fwkd up with their chopper and plopped it on the perimeter wall, eh.

Read somewhere that this was because, when they practised on a life size model of the compound, the one they used was made from chain-link fencing. Whereas the real one had solid walls. This difference in the dissipation of the down forces created by the rotor caused unpredictable/unexpected behaviour to the handling of the chopper.

Well it sounded plausible to me anyway.

----------


## ENT

Sounds reasonable.
The planners may not have waited for the final image definitions to build the practice model.
The pilot would have known of the different responses to downdraught over various terrain conditions and would descend appropriately as you point out.
I wonder if it was in fact members of the same SEAL team that got wiped in a later chopper crash.
Do you or anybody else know anything about that?

----------


## Mid

*Bin Laden movie to premiere on Nov 4* 
*
A  big-name Hollywood fundraiser for Barack Obama is releasing the first  feature film about the raid that killed Osama bin Laden, days before the  US presidential election.*

SEAL Team Six: The Raid on Osama bin Laden is distributed by Harvey  Weinstein, the respected movie mogul who hosted the president at a  celebrity-studded fundraising event in New England last month.

In a press release, the National Geographic Channel said it would  premiere SEAL Team Six on November 4 after its president Howard Owens  and Weinstein discussed the insight the film is sure to evoke in all  Americans.

The film  directed by John Stockwell and produced for theatrical  release by Nicholas Chartier, who produced the Oscar-winning war film  The Hurt Locker  will then go onto Netflix movie screening website.

In a trailer posted online yesterday, characters are heard saying Were  going to be the team that takes out Osama and the president of the  United States is going to be staking his presidency on this call.

Obama personally gave the green light for US Navy SEAL commandos to  target bin Ladens hideout in Pakistan on May 2, 2011 in a daring  night-time raid that killed the Al Qaeda leader responsible for the 9/11  attacks.

Weinstein, executive producer of films as diverse as The English  Patient, The Artist and the most recent Rambo movie in a career dating  back to the 1970s, is a well-known supporter of the Democratic party. 

AFP

gulf-times.com

----------


## Butterfly

OBL was another victim of American oppression,

----------


## Mid

OBL and victim in the same sentence , that narrows the field  :mid:

----------


## alitongkat

whatever he was, he was definitely wrong in killing thousands of people... and has been ever since on the waiting list... he knew in advance...

----------


## Butterfly

I am sure Jesus and his followers have killed far more people than OBL could, and yet he is worshiped by most Americans

quite ironic, isn't it ?

----------


## alitongkat

jesus and the disciples havent killed anyone...

and the "evangelists" distance themselves from the catholic/protestant churches... they do have absolutely NOTHING to do with them, nor with their history... they would have never done anything like that... just that most of them now support nuke-the-muslims...

----------


## Tom Sawyer

Osama bin Laden was a cartoon character. A Ronald McDonald, a Colonel Sanders (or was it "Saunders" - who knows since it's now just "KFC") -- "OBL" - "KFC" -- "WMD" -- etc. Fiction and reality, brought to you from the Evil Empire and it's Hollywood chums..

----------


## Butterfly

OBL will rise from the dead, and like Jesus, will be a new icon for millions of followers

he is a martyr, and will be revered as such

----------


## SiLeakHunt

I live in a small town in Lancashire and have only just noticed this new item, that will set the cat amongst the pigeons

----------


## Carrabow

> I am sure Jesus and his followers have killed far more people than OBL could, and yet he is worshiped by most Americans
> 
> quite ironic, isn't it ?


 
I thought you went to school? Well, it is not too late to take a history class. Quit choosing sides BF. Many people have been slain by others agenda.

----------


## Mid

*US judges reluctant to order release of bin Laden photos*
Jan 11, 2013

_
A man watches a TV broadcast on the death of Osama bin Laden at Seoul train station in Seoul, South Korea in May 2011._ 
Pic: AP.

*WASHINGTON* (AP) — U.S. appeals court judges seemed sceptical Thursday  about forcing the government to release photos and video taken of Osama  bin Laden during and after a raid in which the terrorist leader was  killed by U.S. commandos.

 Judicial Watch, a conservative watchdog group, is seeking the images  through the Freedom of Information Act. The Defence Department said it  didn’t turn up anything responsive to the FOIA request, while the CIA  found 52 responsive records. The intelligence agency withheld all of  them, citing exemptions for classified materials and information  specifically exempted by other laws.

 Judicial Watch lawyer Michael Bekesha told the appeals court panel in  arguments Thursday that the government didn’t provide a specific enough  basis for denying the request. But Judge Merrick Garland said the  government cited specific concerns that the images could be used by the  al-Qaida terrorist network for propaganda and to incite anti-American  sentiment.

 “Why aren’t those specific?” asked Garland, an appointee of Democratic President Bill Clinton.

 Bekesha said that the government didn’t provide the justification for  each of the 52 records, and how each one of them would cause harm. He  suggested that graphic photos of bin Laden’s corpse should be  distinguished from somber images of bin Laden’s burial at sea, for  example.

 Judith W. Rogers, also a Clinton appointee, said this wasn’t a typical case, because bin Laden was the al-Qaida founder.

 “What about concerns that images could be used for propaganda?” she asked.

 Bekesha replied that the judges are capable of making those kinds of  determinations and that the images sought are not like records of secret  conversations or secret U.S. security locations overseas.

 “Isn’t this worse?” Garland asked, because the government says the release could lead to deaths.

 The court, Bekesha, said should “not just rubber-stamp” the government’s findings of what might cause harm.

 The third judge on the panel, Harry T. Edwards, did not ask any  questions. Edwards was appointed by Democratic President Jimmy Carter.

 John Bennett, director of the CIA’s National Clandestine Service,  said in a declaration filed with the court that many of the photos and  video recordings are “quite graphic, as they depict the fatal bullet  wound to and other similarly gruesome images of his corpse.” Images were  taken of bin Laden’s body at the Abbottabad compound, where he was  killed by a Navy commando team, and during his burial at sea from the  USS Carl Vinson, Bennett said.

 Justice Department lawyer Robert Loeb said that Bennett’s declaration  explained why all of the records would harm national security.  Bennett’s declaration, for example, reported that al-Qaida attacked the  U.S. assertions that bin Laden had received an appropriate Islamic  burial at sea. 

Bennett argued that releasing images of the burial, as  well as of bin Laden that showed the “gruesome nature of his fatal  injuries,” could enhance the group’s efforts “to use these events to  further attack” the security interests of the U.S. He said such images  could also be interpreted as a deliberate attempt by the U.S. to  humiliate the late al-Qaida leader.

 Judicial Watch is appealing a district court judge’s ruling last year denying the group’s lawsuit over the information request.

 “The court declines plaintiff’s invitation to substitute its own  judgment about the national-security risks inherent in releasing these  records for that of the executive-branch officials who determined that  they should be classified,” Judge James E. Boasberg wrote in that  decision.

 Separately, The Associated Press asked for files about the bin Laden  raid in more than 20 separate information requests, mostly submitted the  day after bin Laden’s death in 2011. The Pentagon told the AP in March  2012 that it could not locate any photographs or video taken during the  raid or showing bin Laden’s body. It also said it could not find any  images of bin Laden on the Navy aircraft carrier where his body was  taken after he was killed. The AP is appealing the Defense Department’s  decision administratively.

 The CIA, which ran the bin Laden raid and has special legal authority  to keep information from ever being made public, still has not  responded to AP’s May 2011 request for photographs and video of bin  Laden’s body as well as other records about the mission.

asiancorrespondent.com

----------


## wasabi

The man Bin Laden may be dead. The myth and his phylosophy will live on by many more followers. U.S.A needs a hate fiqure,needs a fiqure and group to scare the simple peasants,in the U.S.A and for the worlds puppet leaders to sell the scare story to their dumb arsed peasants.
How many more lies are going to be pedaled.
What will replace the Bin Laden scare story?

----------


## khmen

^Make no mistake, there will be another bogeyman already lined up to get the majority of the propagandised US populace frothing at the mouth. They need a hate figure to justify their unjustifiable actions around the globe.

After all, without a "bad guy" to their "good guy", what would happen? They may just begin to realise who the real threat to their security and stability is and the whole house of cards may begin to crumble.

----------


## Chico the Fox

Anwar al-Awlaki: The Next Bin Laden

----------


## Butterfly

America needs a new terrorist to cover up the fact that they are the biggest terrorist out there

----------


## socal

> ^Make no mistake, there will be another bogeyman already lined up to get the majority of the propagandised US populace frothing at the mouth. They need a hate figure to justify their unjustifiable actions around the globe.
> 
> After all, without a "bad guy" to their "good guy", what would happen? They may just begin to realise who the real threat to their security and stability is and the whole house of cards may begin to crumble.


So the US has no real enemies ? They have to create fake ones ?

----------


## Rural Surin

> America needs a new terrorist to cover up the fact that they are the biggest terrorist out there


They're gonna need a huge blanket....

----------


## piwanoi

> America needs a new terrorist to cover up the fact that they are the biggest terrorist out there


 Yeah quite true BF, but for Russia ,China, East Germany, Cuba ,and North Korea keeping the yanks in check  there,s no knowing what acts of human enslavement and lack of free speech and democracy  evil America would have got up to under crackpot  dictator  Presidents such as Roosevelt , Kennedy and Reagan  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## wasabi

Just finished this book. Interesting how his account of OBL being shot was a lot simpler than the Media lies. Interesting that they where doing the grunt work and they knew Obama would claim credit for their work.

----------


## sabang

_bin Laden knew about the influence of America's Military-Industrial Complex. He was well aware of its political connections and power.

Driving the US further into debt showed "that al Qaeda has gained. But on the other hand it shows that the Bush administration has also gained, something that anyone who looks at the size of the contracts acquired by the shady Bush administration-linked mega-corporations, like Halliburton and its kind, will be convinced.

"And it all shows that the real loser is you," he said. "It is the American people and their economy."_
The Independent Report: Osama bin Laden's Ultimate Goal: Bankrupt America

Osamas stated goal was to bankrupt America. The above is from a tape OBL released in 2004, three years after 911. The national debt was already more than $7 trillion, the federal Deficit $413 billion. Look at it now- plus there's the 'Patriot' Act, and I dunno about you but I avoid flying internationally now because of the security bullshit.

Evil does not mean dumb, and Osama was spot on the money. The real loser was you. 911 cost al qaeda around $500,000.

----------


## Mid

*Michigan businessman seeks $25 million reward for revealing bin Ladens hiding place*
Jeff Karoub
Sat Nov 02 2013

*A Michigan man claims he tipped federal  investigators to the location of Osama bin Ladens compound in Pakistan  eight years before his killing and has hired attorneys to help him  collect the $25-million reward.*

*DETROIT*A Michigan man  claims he tipped federal investigators to the location of Osama bin  Ladens compound in Pakistan eight years before his killing and has  hired attorneys to help him collect the $25-million reward.

 The Al Qaeda leader  was killed in May 2011 during a Navy SEAL raid on the three-storey  compound. U.S. officials have said the house wasnt built until 2005,  and Pakistani officials have said they believe he moved there in the  summer of that year.

 A letter from a  Chicago-based law firm representing Grand Rapids resident Tom Lee says  the 63-year-old gem merchant reported the location of bin Ladens  compound in Abbottabad in 2003. The letter sent by the Loevy & Loevy  law firm to FBI director James Comey in August says a Pakistani  intelligence agent told Lee that he escorted bin Laden and his family  from Peshawar to Abbottabad.

  According  to the letter, Lee, a U.S. citizen of Egyptian heritage, shared the  information with customs and FBI agents. Lee reported that the Pakistani  agent was a member of a family that Mr. Lee had done business with for  decades, the letter said, and the agent and his family opposed bin  Laden.

 The letter said Lee, who lives in Grand Rapids, made numerous attempts to claim his reward but received no responses.

 Mr. Lee precisely  identified the whereabouts of the most notorious terrorist of our era, a  man responsible for the World Trade Center attacks, the most  devastating act of terror committed on American soil, and numerous other  assaults on Americans, the letter said.

 Lee told The Grand Rapids Press in an email Friday that he couldnt understand why the government waited to act.

 It disturbs me, and  it should disturb every American, that I told them exactly where bin  Laden was in 2003, and they let him live another eight years, he said  in the email.

thestar.com

----------


## sabang

Join the queue, and start hummin' dixie. Join the Vietnamese, seeking their unpaid war reparations, the UN over various unresolved squabbles, etc- but heck, don't hold yer breath. They haven't even got around to restoring the confiscated property of Redcoat sympathising Americans yet, as ordered by President Washington, and that were three centuries ago.  :Smile:

----------


## Rainfall

Let alone the property of the first Americans. A dear American tradition was born, kill someone and take his wealth, and call it freedom. Why did the Indians do so much better in Canada under the English rule?

----------


## importford

just luck,..... :Smile:

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Let alone the property of the first Americans. A dear American tradition was born, kill someone and take his wealth, and call it freedom. Why did the Indians do so much better in Canada under the English rule?


Gawd here we go again!! FFS yes the English have a stellar record of human rights and treatment of their 'subjects' and past colonial conquests.. What convenient memories your historians must have..Just ask any Aborigine for example?  :mid:   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  The Native Americans of Australia. More to the point it was English that first colonized the new world in large numbers wasn't it? I guess that makes them even more responsible then any nationality for the disenfranchisement of native American peoples..

----------


## leemo

Wasn't scalping a Brit invention?

----------


## raycarey

> Join the queue, and start hummin' dixie. Join the Vietnamese, seeking their unpaid war reparations, the UN over various unresolved squabbles, etc- but heck, don't hold yer breath. They haven't even got around to restoring the confiscated property of Redcoat sympathising Americans yet, as ordered by President Washington, and that were three centuries ago.


40 acres and a mule

----------


## Rainfall

> Originally Posted by Rainfall
> 
> 
> Let alone the property of the first Americans. A dear American tradition was born, kill someone and take his wealth, and call it freedom. Why did the Indians do so much better in Canada under the English rule?
> 
> 
> Gawd here we go again!! FFS yes the English have a stellar record of human rights and treatment of their 'subjects' and past colonial conquests.. What convenient memories your historians must have..Just ask any Aborigine for example?   The Native Americans of Australia. More to the point it was English that first colonized the new world in large numbers wasn't it? I guess that makes them even more responsible then any nationality for the disenfranchisement of native American peoples..


I know you kid yourselves that your revolution was all about taxation w/o representation, freedom, pursuit of happiness, and singing Kumbaja. In reality, England had banned American settlers from invading any more Indian land, and was abolishing slavery all over the world. In particular that Washington character could not go along with that, just imagining he would have had to work himself instead of slaves making him rich was beyond him. I suggest you read up what the early writings of your republic say about the red and black man. Dehumanising is the first step to justify genocide and slavery.

The comparison with Australia is flawed. In the US the genocide of the Indians was a matter of the state, the UK put the Aborigines on equal footing with the white settlers early on. Easy to elude government laws and control in a place as vast as this, so sparsely populated, and on the other side of the world. This week I watched a documentary about the first lawsuit against white settlers for killing Aborigines, early in the 19th century. They accused were hanged. From 1901, Australia was independent. What's it like in the US now? Maybe my neighbour who is from Montana gave me an idea. She said that if you shoot an Indian, you have to drag him to your door, and claim he tried to burgle. Sounds easy.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Join the queue, and start hummin' dixie. Join the Vietnamese, seeking their unpaid war reparations, the UN over various unresolved squabbles, etc- but heck, don't hold yer breath. They haven't even got around to restoring the confiscated property of Redcoat sympathising Americans yet, as ordered by President Washington, and that were three centuries ago.


You forgot to mention nuclear vets and their families...

----------


## FloridaBorn

> the UK put the Aborigines on equal footing with the white settlers early on.


And yet they don't see it that way... Guess it is relative to one's point of view..

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by Rainfall
> 
> 
> Let alone the property of the first Americans. A dear American tradition was born, kill someone and take his wealth, and call it freedom. Why did the Indians do so much better in Canada under the English rule?
> 
> 
> Gawd here we go again!! FFS yes the English have a stellar record of human rights and treatment of their 'subjects' and past colonial conquests.. What convenient memories your historians must have..Just ask any Aborigine for example?   The Native Americans of Australia. *More to the point it was English that first colonized the new world in large numbers wasn't it? I* guess that makes them even more responsible then any nationality for the disenfranchisement of native American peoples..


Your knowledge of history's definitely myopic.

Portugal and Spain colonized South America followed by the Dutch, English and French, all of whom colonised or tried to colonize North America, the English being the most successful there.

Along with Germany and Belgium, that group of nations colonized most of the globe, including Africa, Oz and NZ..



But you're ignoring something......

What about US's colonisation of Philippines, Puerto Rico, Mexico, Hawaii, Kiribati, Trust Territories Of the Pacific Islands, 

Marshall Islands, Palau, Micronesia, Northern Mariana Islands, American Samoa, Grenada, Japan, Guam, Iraq and parts of 

Africa, like Liberia,....it's failed attempt at colonizing Cuba?

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Rainfall
> ...


Nothing wrong with my knowledge of the origins of MY country you pompous twat.. My point was made and it was accurate and it spoke to NORTH AMERICA you ignorant fool, go back to your conspiracy thread this thread is out of your league even more so then that one is.. We didn't gain our independence from any of those other countries they were not our colonizers, they merely had immigrant communities who BTW fought with us to gain independence.. :bananaman: 

All of those countries better off for it too.. And we never attempted to colonize Cuba what a load of ill informed, off topic, revisionist, rubbish..

----------


## ENT

^ As usual, the patriotic American blindworm stooge in denial of his own mongrel past.

America has been colonized by more varieties than Heinz 57 ever had, and Cuba was the only country that successfully resisted US attempts to colonize it. Did ya forget the Bay of Pigs, falure?


I guess by the tone of your brainwashed rhetoric that the Amerinds who occupied your continent a few hundred years ago onwards share the same views as you do,..that the land wasn't colonized by French, Dutch, Spanish,...as well as the English,....hmmmmm?

And to add insult to the injury you sepos caused to your colonies, you reckon all those countries are "better off for it too.."

You have to be one of the most fascistic posters on the board,... CIA man.

----------


## bsnub

> England had banned American settlers from invading any more Indian land


Complete and utter bullshit. The history is not that simple the British always had the intention of conquest. You clearly know nothing about US history.




> and was abolishing slavery all over the world.


Just because the coolies that built the since collapsed and short lived British empire were not in chains does not mean they were not slaves. 

You British just love to pontificate about how others have a naive world view when in fact it is you that lives in a fantasy world. Lets see ENPEE believes that drinking fluorided water causes mind control and Rainfall actually thinks that England was dancing around the globe freeing the enslaved savages. Twats.

----------


## FloridaBorn

> America has been colonized by more varieties than Heinz 57 ever had, and Cuba was the only country that successfully resisted US attempts to colonize it. Did ya forget the Bay of Pigs, falure?


Once again displaying your complete lack of intellect. While not proud of saying so, we never showed up for that party, it was strictly a Cuban uprising, we promised support but due to politics never provided it which is why it failed.. So, sorry to say but another epic fail from the conspiracy nutter..

----------


## FloridaBorn

> I guess by the tone of your brainwashed rhetoric that the Amerinds who occupied your continent a few hundred years ago onwards share the same views as you do,..that the land wasn't colonized by French, Dutch, Spanish,...as well as the English,....hmmmmm?


Colonization consists of a government being installed and governs, none of those countries ever governed the new world, only the English, thus only the English colonized the territory of what became the States..

----------


## FloridaBorn

> Just because the coolies that built the since collapsed and short lived British empire were not in chains does not mean they were not slaves.


Of course it's being completely overlooked here but the English had their own fair share of slaves long before we did.

----------


## ENT

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> I guess by the tone of your brainwashed rhetoric that the Amerinds who occupied your continent a few hundred years ago onwards share the same views as you do,..that the land wasn't colonized by French, Dutch, Spanish,...as well as the English,....hmmmmm?
> 
> 
> Colonization consists of a government being installed and governs, none of those countries ever governed the new world, only the English, thus only the English colonized the territory of what became the States..


Poppycock.

Both the French and Spanish governed their territorial claims (colonies) in America.

A colony doesn't necessitate "a government being installed and governs.." as you claim, governs what? A bunch of tents, where from...from the new embassy? Set up by an otherwise unemployable civil servant?

Government may creep in sometime after, if at all, and I doubt that any French or Spanish versions of their history of American occupation would disregard their early colonies there, governed or not.

Until any colony was established somewhere, there could be nothing to govern there,.... so colonists arrived, set themselves up, and only if the place proved profitable did it flourish.... so attracting revenue collectors in the form of unemployed clerks and book-keepers.

Many colonies did well without government.

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## ENT

> Originally Posted by bsnub
> 
> Just because the coolies that built the since collapsed and short lived British empire were not in chains does not mean they were not slaves.
> 
> 
> Of course it's being completely overlooked here but the English had their own fair share of slaves long before we did.


Who's this anonymous "we" you're on about?

Dy'a mean Americans?

America had black African slavery introduced there by De Soto in 1500s, and Spanish America, (including Florida  :Smile:  ) saw many slaves imported there then.


Hey, you're from New Spain. ain't ya,.....Florida?


Florida became United States territory in 1821. Up until then, the Spanish had ruled the land for almost three hundred years. When Florida achieved statehood, the total population was twelve thousand, the majority consisting of free blacks, fugitive slaves, or Seminole, Creek or Mikasuki Indians. Some blacks found the more relaxed racial climate to their liking. By the 1730s, Spanish Florida existed as a haven for runaway slaves from Georgia and the Carolinas. While the life of a slave in colonial Florida was not necessarily better than the life of a British slave in Virginia, the institutions of government and church offered them better legal protection and far greater opportunity for freedom.

By 1830, Middle Florida had emerged as the state’s “black belt”. The vast majority of slaves lived in this region, consisting of Jackson, Gadsden, Leon, Jefferson and Madison Counties. Although cotton would come to be the main cash crop of Middle Florida, most slaveholders owning large areas grew sugarcane only for their own consumption. Planters often cultivated a variety of other crops other than their staple, such as corn, sweet potatoes, greens, squash, and okra.
http://historyengine.richmond.edu/episodes/view/4861






*Well, wadya know, the American colony of New Spain (including Florida) existed for 300 years before it became incorporated into the USA!!*
https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=ne...h=909#imgdii=_

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## bsnub

^ Nice cut and paste job and further evidence that you truly are completely ignorant with regards to American history. That post of yours is inaccurate and incomplete. The Spanish never ruled or governed Florida in fact there presence there was limited to some cattle ranches and a handful of weak garrisons. The British controlled Florida from 1763 to 1783 when Spain reclaimed it. Yet all of the Spanish had left in 1763 to Cuba. 

Do not post on things you know nothing about you only make yourself look like an idiot.

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## ENT

^ Great post, and indubitable evidence of your myopic one eyed view of American history as rammed down your throat at high school.

There's nothing inaccurate about my post, at all, snubs.

It's just that you sepos aren't very well educated.

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## bsnub

^ You are truely clueless I have a history degree from University. How about you?

Your post is not even your own words it is a cut and paste from some shitty website. Spain ceded Florida to the British in 1763 after they signed the Treaty of Paris.  My post is not close to being myopic it is simply pointing out that your post is inaccurate. I didn't have to run to some website to correct you I already know the history. 

When it comes to education you are clearly lacking and your posts over time clearly show it.

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## ENT

> ^ You are truely clueless I have a history degree from University. How about you?
> 
> Your post is not even your own words it is a cut and paste from some shitty website. Spain ceded Florida to the British in 1763 after they signed the Treaty of Paris.  My post is not close to being myopic it is simply pointing out that your post is inaccurate. I didn't have to run to some website to correct you I already know the history. 
> 
> When it comes to education you are clearly lacking and your posts over time clearly show it.




Now I know you're a myopic clone, " I know it all already.." you say...... :rofl: 

You attack me for  posting established refs only because you don't know how to find one, so you've got no university training, as you claim to have.

I posted a ref. to Florida becoming US territory in 1831, a US historical fact which you don't seem to know about.


So let's look at what the Treaty of Paris *1763* was all about;

*The Treaty of Paris,* also known as the Peace of Paris and *the Treaty of 1763, was signed on 10 February 1763 by the kingdoms of* *Great Britain, France and Spain, with Portugal in agreement,* after Britain's victory over France and Spain during the Seven Years' War.
Treaty of Paris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia_(1763)_

So, the Treaty of Paris wasn't signed by America, but was between GB, France and Spain.


But, *after* American independence in *1783,* another treaty was drawn up in *1819*;

*"The Adams–Onís Treaty of 1819,*[1] also known as the *Transcontinental Treaty* or the *Purchase of Florida,[*2] or the* Florida Treaty,*[3] was a treaty *between the United States and Spain in 1819 that gave Florida to the U.S.* and set out a boundary between the *U.S. and New Spain (now Mexico).* 

*It settled a standing border dispute between the two countries* and was considered a triumph of American diplomacy. It came in the midst of increasing tensions related to Spain's territorial boundaries in North America vs. the United States and United Kingdom in the aftermath of the American Revolution; and also, during a period of weakening in Spanish power.

*In addition to ceding Florida to the United States, the treaty settled (as between Spain and the national Government of the US) a boundary dispute along the Sabine River in Texas;* it firmly established the boundary of U.S. territory and claims through the Rocky Mountains and west to the Pacific Ocean, in exchange for the U.S. paying residents' claims against the Spanish government up to a total of $5,000,000 and relinquishing the US claims on parts of Spanish Texas west of the Sabine River and other Spanish areas, under the terms of the* Louisiana Purchase.*

*This latter territorial “settlement” was never accepted by American Southerners in general or Louisianans in particular.* They later migrated from Louisiana territory and crossed into Spanish Texas (later the Mexican State of Texas)--firm in the belief that the original Louisiana Territory (which had been purchased nearly two decades earlier from France) included substantial tracts of land in what is now Colorado and New Mexico. They thought the western and northern borders of Texas should include what is now the eastern third of all New Mexico and the southeastern third of Colorado.[citation needed]

Pursuant to the *Treaty of Friendship and General Relations between the United States of America and Spain of 1902,*[4] Article XXIX, "All treaties, agreements, conventions and contracts between the United States and Spain prior to the *Treaty of Paris* shall be expressly abrogated and annulled, [B]with the exception of the *[I]Adams-Onis Treaty[/I] signed the seventeenth of February 1834".*

*After independence, there was the question of* .......

*Spanish Rule.*                                                                                                                                    For more than two hundred years the Spanish flag had waved over East and West Florida, then the English flag, and then the Spanish again. You have learned how St. Augustine, the first lasting settlement in what is now the United States, was established. Later Pensacola on the western coast was founded, the fort of St. Marks was built, and there were a few settlements in other parts of the country. Except in the neighborhood of the few towns, the Indians were the real owners and rulers of the land. They roamed at will through the great forests, hunting and fishing, clearing land and raising their crops, undisturbed by the Spaniards.

Necessity of annexing Florida. But there was still trouble between these Indians and their American neighbors, and Spain could not or would not end these troubles; it was believed that for the sake of peace and safety the United States must acquire possession of Florida. *So it was proposed that Spain should exchange Florida for a part of Louisiana next to Texas, but nothing came of this plan.*



*How long had Florida been occupied? Why was it important for America to annex Florida?*



*Treaty of Acquisition.* However, Jackson's rapid marches and the punishment he dealt the Indians and their allies for injuries to American settlements, proved to Spain that she could not rule her territory or keep the Indians under control without a large army and heavy expense.                                                                                                                                                         

*Finally, after much discussion, a treaty was signed on Feb. 22, 1819, by which Spain agreed to transfer Florida to the United States for the sum of five million dollars, and the payment of certain claims*.                                                                                  

*This treaty was ratified by Spain, Oct. 24, 1820, but ratifications were not exchanged at Washington till Feb. 22, 1821*. This was the second great land purchase made by our government. General Jackson was appointed military governor of the two Floridas until a regular government should be formed.

*Jackson receives the Territory*. The exchange of flags took place on *July 10, 1821,* at St. Augustine, and *on* *July 17, 1821, at Pensacola. General Jackson was appointed military governor,* and went *to receive the new Territory* and arrange for the exchange of flags at Pensacola the same ceremony at St. Augustine being conducted by Adjutant General Butler.

Floripedia: Florida Becomes a Territory




That lot above is for your personal education and edification snubsy.    :bananaman: 

As you can read, some of what was left of New Spain's southern states was alive and well in Florida for a long time after American Independence, final accord only being reached in 1902.

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