#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Farming & Gardening In Thailand >  >  Are Thais poisoning their land

## Pragmatic

I regularly go out cycling and came across this. It's an excavation down to the water table. The water is then used for irrigation. I've never seen this before and it's not an isolated case as there are a fair few other ponds(?) in the area. The water is opal looking in appearance and isn't the normal brackish colour of the surrounding water courses. The plastic container floating in the middle is a float to hold up the pipe for pumping out. Have any of you farmers seen similar? 
I personally think it's the Thai over use of Pesticides.

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## Pragmatic

Another pond(?) about 1km away.

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## Mr Earl

Are there any fish in it?

Mighty flat looking country yonder!

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## palexxxx

> Mighty flat looking country yonder!



Isaan is like that.

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## Latindancer

It's some mineral leaching out of the soil. Absolutely not pesticide.

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## ltnt

I've not seen that color here in the North East.  Perhaps alkali content?  BIL uses Chicken Shit for fertilizer, but most use chemical fertilizer and chemical weed killers. No Industrial Waste plants in your area Pragmatic?  I'd be more concerned if I lived in or near Bangkok and its spreading industrial community or in Pattaya.

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## ENT

Looks like arsenic polluted ground water.

We have a similar problem near Lamphun.

Other elements that can give that colour to water are dissolved copper sulphate, some chalks and greenstone, or serpentines, asbestos and soapstone, in the right concentration.

I think it's more likely arsenic, at a guess.

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## thaimeme

> It's some mineral leaching out of the soil. Absolutely not pesticide.


Yep. Not a result of chemical or pesticide agents.

The loamy clayish soils/minerals will reveal a number of odd hues to ground water - common leaching in these parts.

Brackish browns, greens, blues, etc.

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## ENT

> Originally Posted by Latindancer
> 
> 
> It's some mineral leaching out of the soil. Absolutely not pesticide.
> 
> 
> Yep. Not a result of chemical or pesticide agents.
> 
> The loamy clayish soils/minerals will reveal a number of odd hues to ground water - common leaching in these parts.
> ...


True.

Arsenates and fluorides contaminate a lot of Northern Thai groundwaters.

Thais often say that rain water's dirty, so prefer well water.

Several of my Thai extended family show symptoms of fluorosis, abnormal bone growth at various joints, particularly first phalanges of toes.

That's one reason I've been so keen to get them drinking rain water or filtered then distilled water here.

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## S Landreth

Water Management: Clearing Cloudy and Muddy Water in Ponds and Lakes: http://soiltesting.tamu.edu/publicat...CS-2013-02.pdf

Maybe? Turbidity.(from the link) The most common cause of pond turbidity is the presence of suspended particles, mainly clay, in ponds. The extremely small size of the clay particles results in continual re-suspension due to changes in water temperature, wind, and/or water movement.

Because of the pumping/dewatering and the groundwater working its way back into the pond? Small ponds (because its extremely dry in the Isan region now) and a lot of water being pumped out.

Just a guess.

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## ENT

Exactly. It's groundwater working up and will contain all subsurface elements dissolved in it, including those fine silts and micro-particles, some of them from sources way upstream from the pond.

Evaporation will cause the water to increase in density and the colour to increase in intensity and opacity.

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## Gipsy

Look like rather new ponds, they've probably added lime. There are three main purposes for liming ponds: 
1 | To increase the  availability of nutrients 
2 | to increase pH and to buffer against daily  pH fluctuations
3 | to sterilize ponds prior to stocking fish

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## ENT

That's a strong possibility, but doesn't account for the opalesque colour.

The pond's deep enough for fish, but liming the water makes fish run out of oxygen, so must be done weeks before introducing smelt.

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## thaimeme

> Originally Posted by thaimeme
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Latindancer
> ...


You might be pleasantly surprised [or not] to know that still to this day numerous individuals, families, communities, etc take/store rain water for everyday consumption as a matter course - without ill effect. They've been practicing this forever.

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## ENT

Too true, many still do collect rain water, but sadly less so than 30 yrs ago, so reliance on technology (pumps etc) caused many communities to rely on pumped groundwater.

If you look around, there aren't many of those big ceramic/concrete water pots around Thai houses any more.

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## Hans Mann

That's where they release the drain water from the soapies, yes.

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## ENT

> I think it's more likely arsenic, at a guess.


I guessed wrong.                                                                                           

Next guess, it's more likely nitrogen phosphates, over-use of fertilizers leached into the water table.

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## Pragmatic

Sorry for the late comeback. Yes they look like new ponds but aren't. They've just been revamped after the Cassava harvest and are being replanted. My concern about the colouring was because I'd never seen it this colour in the 9 years of observing local farming practices. This is the colour I usually see. 

This is a freshly dug pond. And they contain no fish, as far as I could tell. This water is crystal clear except for the turquoise bottom.

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## Bettyboo

I used to be friends with the top stomach doctor at Sirirat, and he said that stomach cancer rates in Thailand were some of the highest in the world due to the pesticide use here, seeping into crap and shrimp farms which are eaten up by the little critters than whacked into somtam. He also said that he never eats Thai grown vegetables unless he has thoroughly washed them himself.

But, some of the folks on here will know better... So, I don't know about the pics in the OP and what they are, but an expert, one of the top experts in this area who deals with this issue everyday, says that Thailand has a massive problem with farming chemicals getting into the water cycle/system then causing diseases such as cancer.

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## Pragmatic

I have to agree Bettyboo. There is no control of chemicals being used on the land. On top of that the poor contractors who spray the stuff never wear any masks. Many chemicals used here that are banned in western countries.

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## ENT

Best veges I can get are either home grown by me, or bought at the (hopefully) organic market, or bought from hill tribe folks house gardens.

Their commercial crops for sale at the fresh produce markets in CM are chemically laden, as are the veges imported from China.

There's a massive chemical pollution problem in Asia, farmers looking for a quick fix and instant bumper crops from added chemicals in their soil.

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## ltnt

I buy most of my mainstay vegetables at O'Top...no chemicals used.  Otherwise we wash all vegetables and fruit.

Simply does no good to warn Thais about their diet being poison, they ain't gonna change...then they wonder why they're sick most of the time.

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## thaimeme

> I have to agree Bettyboo. There is no control of chemicals being used on the land. On top of that the poor contractors who spray the stuff never wear any masks. Many chemicals used here that are banned in western countries.


The same chemicals introduced from the advance and developed sides.

Thanks Farang.....for nothing.

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## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by Pragmatic
> 
> 
> I have to agree Bettyboo. There is no control of chemicals being used on the land. On top of that the poor contractors who spray the stuff never wear any masks. Many chemicals used here that are banned in western countries.
> 
> 
> The same chemicals introduced from the advance and developed sides.
> 
> Thanks Farang.....for nothing.


  More BS , there is nothing wrong whatsoever with chemical fertilizer ,its the amount used that is the problem ,one can drink a glass of whiskey with no harm done ,try dropping a litre bottle straight off and theres a good chance you could finish up dead .

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## thaimeme

So....what of the highly developed practice of Western lands?

Are they poisoned or pristine?

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## beazalbob69

> Of course they are.
> Profit trumps the right thing to do for most people here.
> Couple that with the education level.
> It is what it is.
> Maybe the next generation of Thais or the one after that will know enough.


Couldn't that be said of just about everywhere?
Profit trumps everything, everywhere.

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## piwanoi

Not only are Thai's poisoning the land they are poisoning themselves, cos every year many die as a direct results of spraying crops with pesticides such as Paraquat without wearing a mask and protective clothing .

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## piwanoi

Here is the lowdown on Paraquat which is widely used here in Thailand and can be purchased in any Agricultural supplies shop the length and breadth of the C

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## piwanoi

> Here is the lowdown on Paraquat which is widely used here in Thailand and can be purchased in any Agricultural supplies shop the length and breadth of the C


 Country , the fatalitys of using this devils brew is plain to see in the link https://www.bernedeclaration.ch/file...1_mb_print.pdf

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## ENT

> there is nothing wrong whatsoever with chemical fertilizer ,its the amount used that is the problem ,one can drink a glass of whiskey with no harm done ,try dropping a litre bottle straight off and theres a good chance you could finish up dead .


Nonesense.

Fertilizers contain fluorides.                                                                              

It's been known since the 1800s when phosphate and super-phosphate fertilizers were first mass produced that fluorides were unstably bound with the resulting fertilizer and on release quickly poisoned the process plant's and farmers in its production and use.

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## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by piwanoi
> 
> 
>  
>  there is nothing wrong whatsoever with chemical fertilizer ,its the amount used that is the problem ,one can drink a glass of whiskey with no harm done ,try dropping a litre bottle straight off and theres a good chance you could finish up dead .
> 
> 
> Nonesense.
> 
> ...


  Maybe they should cease using them in the West Eh ,were a kilo of potatoes would cost 2 quid and a loaf of bread a fiver :smiley laughing: , unfortunatly with the ever growing World population Organic farming can no longer feed us  ,as in anything moderation is the secret .

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## ENT

It's cheaper to grow spuds than rice.                                                                         Rice takes 5 times as much water and as much  superphosphate to grow, as spuds need.

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## piwanoi

> It's cheaper to grow spuds than rice.                                                                         Rice takes 5 times as much water and as much  superphosphate to grow, than spuds need.


  Just in case you had not comprehended my post I was writing about the West and its ever increasing mouths to feed where the use of chemical fertilizers is a must ,but then again most westerners if not all can read and understand the simple instructions on the bag  as to its use ,so unlike many elderly Farmers here in Issan  who cannot even spell their own name with often disastrous results  :Smile:  .

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## ENT

Sorry to differ, but population growth, thus more mouths to feed is a greater problem in developing countries rather than Europe.

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## piwanoi

> Sorry to differ, but population growth, thus more mouths to feed is a greater problem in developing countries rather than Europe.


  I wonder how long it will take Thailand to "develop" ? :Smile:

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## ENT

A while yet.

Some moves are being made towards organic food production, but still slow.

Rice farmers are starting to grow rice without added fertilizers other than composted rice straw and husks along with buffalo and pig shit etc.

Vege production here relies heavily on fluoride based pesticides and inorganic fertilizers, competition with Chinese mass production (again chemical loaded) drives local organically produced crops off the market.

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## thaimeme

> Originally Posted by ENT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by piwanoi
> ...


It's the quality of food stuffs, not the quantity.
You've seem to be missing much within your blind extreme fervor.

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## nevets

> Here is the lowdown on Paraquat which is widely used here in Thailand and can be purchased in any Agricultural supplies shop the length and breadth of the C


This is used to kill grass everywhere which grows very fast on the land, we use it sadly on our land .
I do try to limit it by useing the bush waker but the wife likes to kill the grass.

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## ENT

Paraquat killed my dog, not nice.

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## Troy

Looks like lime has been added to me; in order to reduce the mineral and oxygen content as well as prevent algae, fish and other living organisms. This pond is being used to provide drinking water rather than cultivating fish, hence the colour difference.

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## Pragmatic

> This pond is being used to provide drinking water rather than cultivating fish, hence the colour difference.


 The pictures I published were taken well away from anybodies property. No way was the water being used for drinking. The ones I've come across are located in the cassava fields and appear to be used for drip feed irrigation in the lower levels of the land ie surrounding the rice fields.

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## ENT

Sounds increasingly like nitrates (blue, possibly copper nitrate residue), calcium (opalescent opacity) and the yellowish/red local soil (feldspar, possibly) in the water.

Just my opinion.

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## Bower

It maybe due to the Cassava ? Cytotoxic waste water, cyanide ?
I'm no farmer or chemist but i have seen this in Africa

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## ENT

Copper nitrate fertilizer and calcium nitrate can be used in cassava production, maybe that's what's producing that colour.

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## Iaminsiam

Since there seems to be such  an eclectic range of expertise on the pond could it be possible for our intrepid cyclist to grab a sample for testing or would that start another possibly more interesting thread on the vagaries corruption and idiosyncrasies of Thai chemical analysis. Entertaining if not informative post though.  
 Water looks quite pretty really

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## Pragmatic

> Water looks quite pretty really


What's your definition of water? I live someways out in the sticks and I doubt I could find a lab that could test it. What I thought it may well be is that the farmer pours his fertilizer, weedkiller, insecticide, whatever, directly into his water source then pumps it onto his crops via a drip irrigation system. I now reject this theory being as the idiot would not know his mixing ratio to the capacity of the water in the pond.

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## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by piwanoi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by ENT
> ...


  The simple fact is I have truly lost count as to just how many members
  have told you to "fuck off Jeff" because of your extremist  nonsensical views ,BTW how's the PM's coming along to your thread that Thailand should have a revolution? ,after all Russia under Lenin ,China under  Mao and Cambodia under Pol Pot went from strength to strength did'nt they ,your stupid idea that to make the poor rich that first and foremost we have to make the rich poor , what a fucking dreamer  :smiley laughing:

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## Seekingasylum

Had to have a giggle at some comments here concerning OTOP and other certified foods as if they were some unimpeachable endorsement as to quality. 

Have you forgotten the leaf vegetables and herbs from Thailand banned in the EU during 2013 when they were found to contain traces of chemicals found in prohibited fertilisers and insecticides? Also, did you overlook last year's admission in the press that the Thai HAACP certificated produce  was subsequently found to contain traces of the same chemicals.

Essentially, anything and everything in this country is suspect. You can suspend disbelief or just ignore the phenomenon but the facts remain, Thailand has no functioning rule of law or any administration which could be regarded as beyond reproach.

If you want to hedge your bets, best to eat stuff grown through hydroponics and rely on imported produce, either fresh from Australia/NZ or frozen from there and the EU. Tinned vegetables from the West are also more comforting albeit less nutritious. 

Thai lie pretty much about everything so why do folk here think food production is going to be any different?

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## ENT

^ True. Some organic suppliers around, but pricey.                                                                                                                                    

Grow/gather yer own, anything, sprouts ,mushrooms, lettuce, shallots, wild garlic, morning glory, fern fiddles, water cress, sea weed, wild berries, fruits etc, 100 metres away (at least) from exhaust pollution.

I keep three containers of sprouts going, wheat, alfalfa and mung beans. Add to those some lettuce and carrots, a quarter avocado, a spoonful of fetta, a small baked fish, a tomato, two cloves of garlic and a small onion, dribbled olive oil and brewers yeast with chili....a piece of sour black rye bread...a glass of home brewed stout ale.....a.aaaahhh.

About 800 calories, including 30% of my daily protein requirements.

Organic.

Largely raw and unprocessed.

So packed with vitamins and enzymes, too.

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## Pragmatic

I can't but help laughing at my missus when she prepares vegitables/fruit etc. She won't drink the water from the tap but prepares and cleans(?) food under the tap in the belief she's washing off any chemicals. Waste of time telling her it's the chemicals within that will cause the problems.

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## thaimeme

> I can't but help laughing at my missus when she prepares vegitables/fruit etc. She won't drink the water from the tap but prepares and cleans(?) food under the tap in the belief she's washing off any chemicals. Waste of time telling her it's the chemicals within that will cause the problems.


As you consume the supposed chemically enriched vegies too?

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## Pascha

It is not only the chemicals Thais put on soil that poison us. If you live in a cemented house, you should be aware of radioactivity. Wood or steel houses are much healthier.

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## rickschoppers

> I've not seen that color here in the North East.  Perhaps alkali content?  BIL uses Chicken Shit for fertilizer, but most use chemical fertilizer and chemical weed killers. No Industrial Waste plants in your area Pragmatic?  I'd be more concerned if I lived in or near Bangkok and its spreading industrial community or in Pattaya.


Are you really living in the northeast, or did you mean the northwest?

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## rickschoppers

> So....what of the highly developed practice of Western lands?
> 
> Are they poisoned or pristine?


It depends on your definition of poisoned and pristine. Anything sprayed on plants has the potential of being a poison. Our knowledge of long term exposure to chemicals, toxins and even unpurified water is limited. If you ask most researchers, they will tell you it is best to eat fruit or vegetables that have never been sprayed with anything other than water and even then it depends on the quality of the water.

There have been many cases of vegetables causing salmonella because farms are too close to ranches that have cattle or other livestock. Crops have been contaminated by fecal matter washed into the fields and subsequent contamination occurs. Thorough washing will decrease this possibility, but is not always 100% effective in preventing illnesses.

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## ltnt

> or did you mean the northwest?


Thanks, momentary madness, some folks are on top of everything...not me.

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## rickschoppers

That is OK. If you did mean the northeast, I was going to come pay you a visit, so you lucked out. :Smile:

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## ltnt

O.K., but if in the neighborhood... :Smile:

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## rickschoppers

ditto..

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## Jesus Jones

> Best veges I can get are either home grown by me, or bought at the (hopefully) organic market, or bought from hill tribe folks house gardens.
> 
> Their commercial crops for sale at the fresh produce markets in CM are chemically laden, as are the veges imported from China.
> 
> There's a massive chemical pollution problem in Asia, farmers looking for a quick fix and instant bumper crops from added chemicals in their soil.


Organic is the way to go.  However, and unfortunately, Organic Thailand is single batch tested which is a piss take.  In other words only one batch has to pass the test to be certified organic.  Organic Thailand is also required to pass 150 -200 chemical test, yet chachawan farm passes over 700, doesn't carry the organic label and is one of only a few farms that passes EU standards.

Their brand is Madam Veggie I believe.

Oh, you won't find it in the shops as they only deal with the EU.  You can buy direct though as a do.

https://m.facebook.com/profile.php?i...07144322861641

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## rickschoppers

Do you call them JJ, or do they have an online order form?

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## Pragmatic

> No Industrial Waste plants in your area Pragmatic?


Not at all. Agriculteral land as far as the horizan all around.

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## Jesus Jones

> Do you call them JJ, or do they have an online order form?


I order a veg set plus coconuts.  If you want the list of veg I can post it later as I am out at the moment. You can call or order on line.  

The coconuts, although a little more expensive than villa are like nothing I have tasted!

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## Jesus Jones

Posted the info here:
https://teakdoor.com/food-and-drink/1...ver-found.html (Best Veg I have ever found in Thailand.)

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## rickschoppers

All good information JJ. What is your typical order like(cost) and how do you rate their taste? I am definitely interested in contacting them and was wondering how their English speaking skills are? Do you have a contact person you would recommend?

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## thaimeme

> Originally Posted by thaimeme
> 
> 
> So....what of the highly developed practice of Western lands?
> 
> Are they poisoned or pristine?
> 
> 
> It depends on your definition of poisoned and pristine. Anything sprayed on plants has the potential of being a poison. Our knowledge of long term exposure to chemicals, toxins and even unpurified water is limited. If you ask most researchers, they will tell you it is best to eat fruit or vegetables that have never been sprayed with anything other than water and even then it depends on the quality of the water.
> ...


Rather moot...
As any "fresh" food stuffs are hybrid and GMOed beyond real consumption - making Western produce and proteins quite irrelevant.

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## Jesus Jones

> All good information JJ. What is your typical order like(cost) and how do you rate their taste? I am definitely interested in contacting them and was wondering how their English speaking skills are? Do you have a contact person you would recommend?


Taste is much better than anything In the markets.  The only other veg worthy is from lemon farm.  Same applies to the coconuts.  I usually order the box set at 500bht which is a mixed lot.  The only downside is you can't pick and choose.  I order 15 - 20 coconuts a month.

English is very good.

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## ENT

> It is not only the chemicals Thais put on soil that poison us. If you live in a cemented house, you should be aware of radioactivity. Wood or steel houses are much healthier.


Radon gas.

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## rickschoppers

If a building is well ventilated, the levels of Radon Gas are much lower than found in basements and poorly ventilated buildings.

I would think most homes built by westerners in Thailand fall into the well ventilated category because of heat factors. I know mine does.

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## ENT

Ventilation's the trick.

Radon's continually being given off from just about all materials as they degrade.

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## Pascha

Does wood give off radon? I think the background radiation just applies to anything made of earthen materials.

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## Latindancer

Correct. And here's something many don't know :  As radon itself decays, it produces new radioactive elements called  radon daughters or decay products. Unlike the gaseous radon itself,  radon daughters are solids and stick to surfaces, such as dust particles  in the air. If such contaminated dust is inhaled, these particles can  stick to the airways of the lung and increase the risk of developing  lung cancer.


Radon is produced by the radioactive decay of radium-226, which is found  in uranium ores; phosphate rock; shales; igneous and metamorphic rocks  such as granite, gneiss, and schist; and, to a lesser degree, in common  rocks such as limestone.[60] Every square mile of surface soil, to a depth of 6 inches (2.6 km2 to a depth of 15 cm), contains approximately 1 gram of radium, which releases radon in small amounts to the atmosphere[3] On a global scale, it is estimated that 2,400 million curies (90 TBq) of radon are released from soil annually.[61]


Radon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Pascha

Wooden houses on stilts are best for health.

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## ENT

Agreed.

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## thaimeme

> Wooden houses on stilts are best for health.


Steal my heart...
The romantic notion of a traditional and practical abode doesn't go over well in today's image dwelling cultures.

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## Pragmatic

Anyone that says 'Thailand is a beautiful country' has his eyes shut. I've put pictures like this up on other threads, so please don't see it as a one off. Get yourself off the main road and see how Thais treat their country-side. Similar can be found off the main roads but not as much in my opinion.

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## rickschoppers

I have to agree with you Prag. The amount of plastic bags and trash around the county is truely a disgrace. It is one of the facts of Thailand that I hate. Just think how the country would look if the population took some pride and cleaned up after themselves. Too lazy I guess.

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## Pragmatic

Brings a tear to my eye when I see the above shit dumped willie nillie in the country-side.

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## pompeysbroke

That looks like the Nang Rong-Buriram road...Itchycock-Buriram bus conductors gather all peasant plastics into a bin bag just before arrival into Bollocksram and hurl it out of the door just before arrival, blinkless.

"Singwadlom mai dee" I'd utter, and got that customary inane grin response

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## Pragmatic

> That looks like the Nang Rong-Buriram road...Itchycock-Buriram bus conductors gather all peasant plastics into a bin bag just before arrival into Bollocksram and hurl it out of the door just before arrival, blinkless.


The actual photo's are in the Nang Rong area approx 25km SW of the the town. So you didn't do too bad Pompey.

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## ltnt

According to one of the latest news reports Thai's don't generate enough trash to operate "Co-Gen," Power plants.  Go figure?

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## rickschoppers

That's because they just throw it on the ground instead of a proper receptacle.

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## ltnt

^You mean the ground you stand on isn't a "proper receptacle?"

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## rickschoppers

Maybe for the Thais it is.

In California it is a $1000 dollar fine for littering the road.

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## ltnt

We ain't in California I hate to let you know?  Fuck all this worldly shit!  Why are you folks here, to fuck it up with rules and regualtions laws that fucked up you're country so badly that you've fucked off to Thailand now and are pretty much on your way to fucking it up as well...shit I just get pissed off all this rules shit spouting about this place.  Fuck rules and rulers!!!!!

Thanks for listening to me, now on with your rules in California FFS....Shit fire!!!

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## rickschoppers

OK, Itnt. I was not saying Thailand had to adopt what is done elsewhere. I was just showing what it would cost you if you littered in California. Ontario has the same fine BTW.

So take a deep breath and just ignore what I write that sets you off. I, like you, am living in Thailand so we tend to get a little crazy at times, especially in the village.

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## cnx37

And fuhrk you too.

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## ltnt

> So take a deep breath and just ignore what I write that sets you off. I, like you, am living in Thailand so we tend to get a little crazy at times, especially in the village.


All good Rick, meltdown 101, fuck this conformity crap. If I wanted conformity I'd have stayed in the fucking Army like Davis...sorry for that Davis.  True on my part however.





> And fuhrk you too.


Thanks for the support cnx37, someone's got to say it!  Chinese food tonight?

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## rickschoppers

Understood and I hate conformity as well which is why I first looked at Mexico to retire and then changed to Thailand. If the Thais want to poison their country, who am I to stop them?

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## ltnt

I really believe you can get "too much Teak Door."  All the negative shit here and conflict mismanagement is pretty serious stuff to one mentally.  Pretenders hating everything on a daily basis is just to much.  Then there's those with overwhelming save the world issues, agenda's of every kind, and clueless mutts who never set foot anywhere as an ex-pat...Whew...fuck me silly...

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## rickschoppers

A truer statement has not been made, at least on this site. I enjoy the banter, but there is a limit to what one can take. I read more travel threads at that point and try to stay away from those topics that cry negativity.

Yes, I will join in from time to time, at that point it is more for entertainment than anything else. I have taken TD vacations as long as 6 months, but I keep coming back to see what foolishness everyone has been up to.

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## Latindancer

> I really believe you can get "too much Teak Door."  All the negative shit here and conflict mismanagement is pretty serious stuff to one mentally.  Pretenders hating everything on a daily basis is just to much.  Then there's those with overwhelming save the world issues, agenda's of every kind, and clueless mutts who never set foot anywhere as an ex-pat...Whew...fuck me silly...


Yes....this is why I hate trolls. We just don't need em. 


Hi Willy !  :kma:

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