#  >  > Computers Can Be Fun >  >  > Computer News >  >  Windows 8

## barbaro

Windows 8 will be officially released on October 26th (next week) and here is some feedback from the previewers.  I've read some other things on techrader and what not.

As a casual user with simple needs I suppose this won't affect me much.

I am skeptical of the part on *bold* below.  I mean, it can't be that difficult.




> Originally published Friday, October 19, 2012 
> 
> *Early look at Windows 8 baffles consumers*
> 
> _The release of Microsoft's Windows 8 operating system is a week away, and consumers are in for a shock. Windows, used in one form or another for a generation, is getting a completely different look that will force users to learn new ways to get things done._
> 
> By PETER SVENSSON
> AP Technology Writer
> 
> ...


Entire: Early look at Windows 8 baffles consumers | Local News | The Seattle Times

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## Mid

looks like XP will do me for a while yet .

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## Zooheekock

I looked at a preview of it a while ago and thought it looked fucking awful - even when it gets pirated, I can't imagine I'll be bothering with it.

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## terry57

I have 2 PC's, one has XP and one has Windows 7. I'm happy with both and foked if I want to start using another system.

Main reason I don't bother going over to Apple. No need to and no desire. PC works dam fine for me.

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## bsnub

Windows 8= Junk

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## VocalNeal

> looks like XP will do me for a while yet .


+1 

The wife has something newer and her new version of Excel drives me to distraction.

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## Butterfly

is it worse than Win7 ? that's pretty hard to beat,

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## Marmite the Dog

The problem with situations like this is the customer having to learn new ways of doing the same thing.

VN was moaning about Office 2007+ being not as 'nice' as older versions. It takes a leap of faith and a bit of time to start feeling comfortable and get more out of the product. I was in the same boat, but now realise that the most recent version of Office is a very powerful tool that has way more going for it than OfficeXP.

I think people will have similar, but more pronounced experiences with Win8. It's not a problem if you're posting crap on TD or Facebook all day, but if you use your computer to any reasonable level, it will definitely impact on your productivity for a while. I'd not be happy if I employed people and the whole company went to shit for a month or two while they got used to a new way of doing things.

It'll take a long time for me until I make the change as I can't afford to be learning how to use a new operating system when Win7 is excellent and I know it well enough to use without thinking about it.

For new PC users it'll probably be easier than using Win7, especially if they have a Windows phone. I know The Midget would certainly find it easier to use as she doesn't really use Win7, but does have a Windows phone.

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## slackula

> is it worse than Win7 ? that's pretty hard to beat,


I have a trial version that runs on VirtualBox on my Mac. The default interface is pretty weird/bad, but it can be tweaked. 


They've moved so many things around that it'll be hard for your average user to get used to it quickly imho. I'd hate to be the IT guy in a company when the CEO says "Let's roll-out Win 8 for everybody!", it's a PITA to configure.

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## Butterfly

Win7, like Win8, is simply cosmetic change despite claims otherwise (who cares about memory management when you have 4GB of RAM to surf porn and read shit online)

I am quite happy with WinXP,

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## Neo

As usual Butters talks out of his arse. 

XP or Win7... both work well. 

Vista and Win8 are prime examples of the customer getting screwed over by big corp.

It's unfortunate that Microsoft has such a monopoly on the OS market.

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## sunsetter

read somewhere that it works well with touchscreen monitors and stuff like that?

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## Marmite the Dog

> read somewhere that it works well with touchscreen monitors and stuff like that?


Yes.

It's a windows phone interface with Win7 behind it. Completely pointless in many ways, unless it proves to be more 'efficient', which I can't see.

I know a guy who's a licensing expert and has had Win8 for a while now. He reckons it's very good, but the learning curve is steep. I think I'll stick with Win7.

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## Troy

> As usual Butters talks out of his arse. 
> 
> XP or Win7... both work well.


Agreed.....We would still be swinging from the trees if we were simply content with what we have.  :Smile:

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## Takeovers

I consider buying Win 8 soon. My reason is I run Win7 and on my wifes computer we still have XP.

That would be ok but I am forgetting about XP already so whenever my wife calls me for help I get stuck.

I guess the difference between 7 and 8 would be much smaller. Unfortunately there is little hope that 7 would become cheaper now. I would buy a really cheap 7.

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## Marmite the Dog

> I guess the difference between 7 and 8 would be much smaller.


I presume you can't read.

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## FailSafe

It's obviously optimized for tablets and touch-screens- I'll be using it on my Asus EP121, but I doubt I'll bother with my desktop.

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## Neo

Windows 8 - is it time to bail out and try something new? - Opinion - Trusted Reviews

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## Marmite the Dog

^ No. It's time to stick with Win7.

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## Fondles

Building myself a new PC next weekend so will give 8 a go, if it is shit 7 is pretty quick and painless to instal anyways.

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## Butterfly

it's funny how many stupid people are still buying Win7 and now Win8, they offer no value

Ubuntu is doing a much better job than Win7 and Win8 combined, this is the true alternative

Ubuntu is not for retarded users though, so Mac fans and Win fans are stuck with MS and Apple

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## Butterfly

> Windows 8 - is it time to bail out and try something new? - Opinion - Trusted Reviews


I bailed out after WinXP, and so should everyone. Ubuntu Desktop is actually a great alternative, I highly recommend it.

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## Fondles

> it's funny how many stupid people are still buying Win7 and now Win8, they offer no value


What sort of moron actually pays for them.

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## Neo

> it's funny how many stupid people are still buying Win7 and now Win8, they offer no value
> 
> Ubuntu is doing a much better job than Win7 and Win8 combined, this is the true alternative
> 
> Ubuntu is not for retarded users though, so Mac fans and Win fans are stuck with MS and Apple


You have no experience of Win7 so how can you comment..?
Win7 works perfectly well, it is what Vista should have been.

I still use XP on 1 laptop and my netbook, it's simple and  perfectly functional. 

The thing with Ubuntu/Linux is driver compatibility.. you dl it, install it, it looks fine, then you realise your touch pad scroll doesn't work or something similar, you search for a driver on the net and don't find solutions, only forums with posts by people looking for the same thing. You try to persevere, but in the end revert back to MS because as much as you hate big corp, your scroll pad works correctly.

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## Marmite the Dog

> this is the true alternative


Not for many. I can't even get away with using a Mac for some of the compatibility issues between Win & Mac versions of supposedly the same software.

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## slackula

> it looks fine, then you realise your touch pad scroll doesn't work or something similar, you search for a driver on the net and don't find solutions, only forums with posts by people looking for the same thing.


This kind of generalisation is what causes the problem. Why don't you post a more specific question about how to get your hardware working.




> Not for many. I can't even get away with using a Mac for some of the compatibility issues between Win & Mac versions of supposedly the same software.


What software?

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## Zooheekock

> The thing with Ubuntu/Linux is driver compatibility..


That's true to an extent but I've never had a problem which couldn't be solved. It just depends how much energy you want to put into finding solutions/learning about how things work but it's certainly not something which everyone is going to want to do.

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## Marmite the Dog

> What software?


PowerPoint mainly.

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## sunsetter

get a nice high spec and high power netbook with hdmi, and buy a nice high spec touchscreen monitor, thats the way forward for me, i have 3 nice e series phillips touchscreen monitors for sale if anyone wants one  :Smile:

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## Marmite the Dog

> i have 3 nice e series phillips touchscreen monitors for sale if anyone wants one


No thanks. I don't need a toy.

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## slackula

> PowerPoint mainly.


The problem isn't necessarily between PP Mac and PP Win, PP has compatibility probs even between closely related versions of Windows. Ever wonder why the print dialogue boxes of MS Office components all looked different?




> get a nice high spec and high power netbook with hdmi, and buy a nice high spec touchscreen monitor


This is the bit I don't get about the Win 8 UI. My monitors are longer than an arm's reach away yet I can click on stuff by moving my mouse a few inches and still have a hand free to shift-click or whatever on my keyboard. I can see absolutely zero benefit of switching to a touchscreen based UI on the desktop or even a laptop.

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## Troy

^ Perhaps the days of the desktop and laptop are limited? 
Destined for the technology graveyard except for a few museum pieces.

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## Takeovers

I just read, that Microsoft will offer the Pro version of Windows 8 for 30€. That is an offer that will be valid until January next year and is for a downloaded version. At that price I may buy two for the wifes computer and mine. No more problems when I need to fix something on her computer.

But first I will try the free preview.

Edit: It was said, after that initial offer expires, the price would be 280€ for the pro version. Those prices were given at a Microsoft presentation here in Berlin today.

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## sabang

Back when Microsoft was the darling of the stock market and technology world, their flagship product Windows (95/ 98 etc) was basically crap- it consumed far too much of a computers resources for a mere interface, and was prone to regular (and bloody annoying) freezing. Now they've finally got it right in a product sense with Windows 7, the companies stock price has been languishing for the better part of a decade, and I believe Apple now doubles it in market cap.

My new puter runs Windows 7 Home pro, and I reckon it's by far the best Windows yet- in terms of  both user friendliness and reliability. So just when they've finally got it right, they're gonna change the formula. Typical :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): . I can't help feeling Apple will go the way of MS- it's stock price & financial ratio's are way too high for a company that sells currently fashionable gadgets with a proprietary operating system that is under threat from constantly improving open source software. If I owned a Hedge fund, I would have a long term short on it.

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## Sailing into trouble

I miss Arry,

he would have been in his element about now. I would have had good fun how Windows is desparetely trying to emulate the industry leaders.......MAC!!!! :bananaman: 

God when all said and done they are only machines.....that rule and sometimes ruin our lives.

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## Fondles

> I just read, that Microsoft will offer the Pro version of Windows 8 for 30€. That is an offer that will be valid until January next year and is for a downloaded version. At that price I may buy two for the wifes computer and mine. No more problems when I need to fix something on her computer.
> 
> But first I will try the free preview.
> 
> Edit: It was said, after that initial offer expires, the price would be 280€ for the pro version. Those prices were given at a Microsoft presentation here in Berlin today.



This offer looks to be an upgrade to win 8 not a full copy of win 8 so you need a legit copy of win 7 to upgrade from.

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## kingwilly

> The thing with Ubuntu/Linux is driver compatibility..
> 			
> 		
> 
> That's true to an extent but I've never had a problem which couldn't be solved. *It just depends how much energy you want to put into finding solutions/learning about how things work* but it's certainly not something which everyone is going to want to do.


But that's the problem, why should I spend hours and hours learning how some piece of crap software works, do I need to understand how a TV works when I turn it on? Or an engine when I switch the ignition? They're tools, supposed to do a job with minimal fuss.

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## Takeovers

> This offer looks to be an upgrade to win 8 not a full copy of win 8 so you need a legit copy of win 7 to upgrade from.


I was thinking of that but it is not what that article said. Also for those who have bought WIN 7 recently with upgrade option the price is 15€.

We just have to wait and see. As today is the day of release we will probably know tonight.

Edit: It is online now. It is an upgrade price but I can upgrade from XP or newer OS.

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## slackula

> But that's the problem, why should I spend hours and hours learning how some piece of crap software works


You miss the point. You are blaming GNU/Linux devs when the blame actually lies with the hardware makers who don't release device drivers that are compatible with the GPL or even the LGPL.

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## Takeovers

I must dig a bit deeper on that upgrade option. On the Microsoft site it says upgrade from XP SP3. 

That would mean only from very late versions. Unless it means one has to install SP3 before upgrading. But that seems to make no sense. So no joy for me with upgrading.

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## Anatidaephobia

> The problem with situations like this is the customer having to learn new ways of doing the same thing.


If so, the consumer probably thinks "might as well switch platforms if I have to relearn" and buys a Mac. 




4 minutes 11 seconds is the money moment!

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## Marmite the Dog

I had a very interesting conversation with a Microsoft guy last night. I whined about how the touchscreen stuff will never work as an interface for pro users on a desktop PC and that it's only good for phones and tablets.

He agreed but said that Win8 is only a stepping stone to the future. Future versions of Windows will be pretty much voice and retina activated. Screens will come with a pair of smart cameras that will know what you're looking at and then, for example, right click commands will be voice activated. The idea is that you'll not need a mouse or a keyboard and the only time you might need to make a physical gesture can be done directly on the screen (but this will be very infrequent).

I can see where MS are going with this, but I still reckon it won't work in the real world. Can you imagine an open plan office full of people telling their computer what to do?

Anyway, it's real and here in the backrooms of MS's offices. The sticking point is whether it's a genuine alternative to a keyboard and mouse setup for the majority of users.

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## sabang

> Can you imagine an open plan office full of people telling their computer what to do?


Better than a world in which computers tell people what to do.

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## Takeovers

I got it now from a Microsoft support forum. You can upgrade from any XP system, provided you have installed SP3, no matter if it is on the install disk or loaded by update.

But no software will be retained. After upgrading it is a clean newly installed system. Software will only be retained if you upgrade from WIN 7.

So everybody who has an XP in the drawer or installed can get WIN 8 pro at the equivalent of 30€ until end of january 2013. But it needs to be installed and registered with Microsoft by that date.

There is a Thai language version available too. :Smile:

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## Neo

Why would you change XP for Win8..? The price..?

Millions of computers around the world, and a large percentage of those in business, are still running XP.. why? Because it works and it's a known quantity.

MS have threatened to pull the plug on XP a few times, but they can't.. too many systems rely on it.

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## Butterfly

^ that's basically the core of it, the majority of people and businesses don't care about the OS, and why should they ? if it works, it works

only boring old farts and bored teenagers like Harry with nothing better to do than test a new OS to fill their empty lives, since they don't do anything useful with their PC

If you have a running WinXP, why would you even consider upgrading, pay twice the license, for something that will not improve and do new things for you.

Win7 Upgrade == Win 8 Upgrade == itard crowd waiting lines == clueless users red flags

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## Butterfly

> I must dig a bit deeper on that upgrade option. On the Microsoft site it says upgrade from XP SP3. 
> 
> That would mean only from very late versions. Unless it means one has to install SP3 before upgrading. But that seems to make no sense. So no joy for me with upgrading.


jesus, you aren't too PC smart, are you ? how upgrading to SP3 so difficult ?

also ask yourself (you probably didn't) why you need to upgrade ? is it because it's cheap ? do you realize you already pay a license once ?

it's quite interesting to see the buying logic of the average clueless user, between Apple and MS, it seems to be an easy business to "trick" your customers.

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## Takeovers

> Why would you change XP for Win8..? The price..? 
> 
> Millions of computers around the world, and a large percentage of those in business, are still running XP.. why? Because it works and it's a known quantity. 
> 
> MS have threatened to pull the plug on XP a few times, but they can't.. too many systems rely on it.


You are right. We are running XP on my wifes PC and WIN7 on mine. My wife would not need to change. XP really is a great OS. 

But sometimes things would be easier when both PCs run the same OS.

So why not use this offer to upgrade both? But even at this price I will have a look at the trial version before I buy.

And Microsoft will pull the plug on XP one day not too far away.





> jesus, you aren't too PC smart, are you ? how upgrading to SP3 so difficult ?


Installing SP3 would not be upgrading, it would be updating. Do you know the difference?

And I never said or implied it was difficult. It isn't.


Edit: I just looked at the repo

 Windows 8 27-10-2012 09:17 AM Butterfly german and retarded, perfect  :Smile: 

Butterfly and PCs, it's always a laugh riot.

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## Fondles

Had a play with it, eats a bag full of dicks without a touchscreen even worse is the bluetooth and wifi on my PC are not compatible. 

Back to win 7.

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## Takeovers

> Had a play with it, eats a bag full of dicks without a touchscreen even worse is the bluetooth and wifi on my PC are not compatible.  
> 
> Back to win 7.


I will see. If I don't like it I still can buy a WIN 7 for my wife. The price for a system builder Home Premium version is now down to 40€. Slightly more for the Pro.

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## Anatidaephobia

> Butterfly and PCs, it's always a laugh riot.


I think you could expand that to "all things dealing with technology", judging by his commentary and lack of contributions.

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## Anatidaephobia

I think Win 7 will hang around a while longer - and those ready to switch and relearn an OS will most likely just buy a Mac or an iPad.

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## Marmite the Dog

> and those ready to switch and relearn an OS will most likely just buy a Mac or an iPad


No chance!

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## Anatidaephobia

> Originally Posted by Anatidaephobia
> 
> and those ready to switch and relearn an OS will most likely just buy a Mac or an iPad
> 
> 
> No chance!


Not talking to dinosaurs like yourself. Regular people will... because that's what they are already doing.

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## Marmite the Dog

> Regular people will


Happy to be irregular and not suckered by Apple's marketing BS.

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## Necron99

> Originally Posted by sunsetter
> 
>  i have 3 nice e series phillips touchscreen monitors for sale if anyone wants one
> 
> 
> No thanks. I don't need a toy.


touchscreens for PC and laptops are the computing equivalent to crappy 3D goggle TV's. 
So while I won't get one, I will invest in companies that make screen cleaning shit. can you imagine the state of your screen after a kid has used it?

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## Fondles

Touchscreens are hand held devices not something that sits 2 foot in front of you on a desk.

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## Neo

> Not talking to dinosaurs like yourself.


Dafney is back for another meltdown..  :mid: 

Beginning in.. 5, 4, 3, ....

 ::chitown::

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## Anatidaephobia

> Happy to be irregular and not suckered by Apple's marketing BS.


Oh, for sure - I wouldn't want you to be using any Apple products, ever, in fact. That's what it's all about. Glad you are complying.

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## barbaro

Can poster "sianabrookes" recent OP called "Windows 8" be merged here?

There are more questions to come (from me also) about Windows 8.

Thanks, if someone can do this.

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## Sucubus

> Touchscreens are hand held devices not something that sits 2 foot in front of you on a desk.


How naive. Maybe for you, but there are plenty of applications where touchscreens are extremely useful, like Process Control.

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## slackula

> How naive. Maybe for you, but there are plenty of applications where touchscreens are extremely useful, like Process Control.


So you are going to carry your desktop monitor around with you doing process control?

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## Takeovers

> Originally Posted by Fondles
> 
> 
> Touchscreens are hand held devices not something that sits 2 foot in front of you on a desk.
> 
> 
> How naive. Maybe for you, but there are plenty of applications where touchscreens are extremely useful, like Process Control.


There is more. Those large touchscreens for the weathermen and for election results on TV are a nice gimmick.

But for the very large majority of devices touch screens are not that helpful. Give me a keyboard and mouse any day.

Maybe in the future with voice control and dictating texts instead of typing them in it may change. Everyone in the office with a headset and mike. Maybe that will teach people to speak intelligible. :Smile:

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## slackula

> Everyone in the office with a headset and mike.


These exist already, they are called "Call Centers". Rumour has it that butterfly runs* one.






*By 'runs' I mean he is the head janitor or so the rumours say.

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## Sucubus

> Originally Posted by Sucubus
> 
> How naive. Maybe for you, but there are plenty of applications where touchscreens are extremely useful, like Process Control.
> 
> 
> So you are going to carry your desktop monitor around with you doing process control?


Sorry, I was challenging the notion that touchscreens have to be hand held devices to be useful. They've been used in manufacturing and process control for years.

What exactly is it that you're blathering on about?

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## TizMe

finger prints on my screen piss me off.

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## slackula

> Sorry, I was challenging the notion that touchscreens  have to be hand held devices to be useful. They've been used in  manufacturing and process control for years.  
> 
> What exactly is it that you're blathering on about?


Nothing about touchscreens, but I can move my mouse a few inches to traverse my desktop screens without having to wave my arms around. I've used touch screens for years every time I've been to an ATM but I wouldn't want to use that sort of interface on the desktop which is what Win8 is trying to push, your strawman argument is ridiculous.

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## Sucubus

> Originally Posted by Sucubus
> 
> Sorry, I was challenging the notion that touchscreens  have to be hand held devices to be useful. They've been used in  manufacturing and process control for years.  
> 
> What exactly is it that you're blathering on about?
> 
> 
> Nothing about touchscreens, but I can move my mouse a few inches to traverse my desktop screens without having to wave my arms around. I've used touch screens for years every time I've been to an ATM but I wouldn't want to use that sort of interface on the desktop which is what Win8 is trying to push, your strawman argument is ridiculous.


Perhaps you should install Chrome on Windows 8. You'll notice it has a Windows 8 mode and a Desktop mode. it's very useable on a 27" touchscreen.

Maybe you should try it before you knock it, eh?

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## PlanK

Touchscreen aside.


Anyone actually used it and found it to be good?  Or even usable?  Or just the same as 7 for desktops users.

Microsoft have good offers for it now until the end of January.  Pretty cheap intro price and then they're gonna raise it.  Been thinking of getting a new SSD and putting Win 8 on it.

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## Anatidaephobia

Of course they have "good offers" - no one is buying it.

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## blue

*what sdd drive do you think is best ?
i'm looking at getting this one for my notebook-
Samsung 840 Series 250GB 2.5 inch SATA Solid State Drive.

I was thinking of  putting  windows 8 from a torrent hack , on it as a dual boot
but the only   real reason would be  if it used less power for the battery ,
Anyone know if this is the case ?





*

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## PlanK

> Samsung 840 Series 250GB



That's the one I'm also thinking about getting.
Tom's Hardware rated the Samsung 840 as best bang-for-the-buck SSD.

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## Anatidaephobia

Look at prices on Tigerdirect.com

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## Sucubus

> Of course they have "good offers" - no one is buying it.


You're not wrong. It is horrible as a Desktop OS, and everyone I know uses Classic Shell or Start8 to restore the start button and menu, and bypass metro.

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## Anatidaephobia

I have to admit, I'm impressed by it as a mobile OS, where it fits and works very well - but exactly what makes it work in mobile, makes it a failure on the desktop.

How long will it take until the board cans Ballmer? Of course, now that he's fired anyone and everyone that could have succeeded him, who's left?

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## Anatidaephobia

> Originally Posted by Sucubus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Fondles
> ...


Those aren't touch screens - those are blue- or green-screens.

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## Marmite the Dog

> Of course, now that he's fired anyone and everyone that could have succeeded him, who's left?


Butterfly?

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## Takeovers

> Those aren't touch screens - those are blue- or green-screens.


Are you sure? It does not look like it to me.

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## Anatidaephobia

> Originally Posted by Anatidaephobia
> 
> Those aren't touch screens - those are blue- or green-screens.
> 
> 
> Are you sure? It does not look like it to me.


Yes, I'm sure.

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## Takeovers

> Originally Posted by Takeovers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Anatidaephobia
> ...


I still don't think so. They used to use green-screens, I know. But you see now a newer technology. The election board on CNN I am sure was a touchscreen and our weather report uses the same technology.

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## Anatidaephobia

> I still don't think so. They used to use green-screens, I know. But you see now a newer technology. The election board on CNN I am sure was a touchscreen and our weather report uses the same technology.


Screencaps?

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## Anatidaephobia

Bluescreen:


Greenscreen:


Greenscreen:

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## Takeovers

Yes those are green-screens, I agree.

But this is the CNN election board




And our weatherman uses the same type. :Smile:

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## BigRed

> Touchscreen aside.
> 
> 
> Anyone actually used it and found it to be good?  Or even usable?  Or just the same as 7 for desktops users.
> 
> Microsoft have good offers for it now until the end of January.  Pretty cheap intro price and then they're gonna raise it.  Been thinking of getting a new SSD and putting Win 8 on it.


I like it, not a massive leap from Windows 7 for non touchscreen users, but not a big cost to upgrade either at $40 US. I have a windows phone as well though and will probably be getting a surface tablet. 

I don't think Microsoft are heading for voice control so much, think of this built into your laptop or keyboard:

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## Takeovers

> I don't think Microsoft are heading for voice control so much, think of this built into your laptop or keyboard:


A flashy toy, good for presentations. But nothing to work with on your PC. I still go with keyboard and mouse.

I have decided WIN 8 is not for me even at that price and will upgrade the wifes PC to WIN 7. That's dirtcheap now, too.

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## PlanK

^^

That does go some way to solving the problem of having to reach out across to the screen and putting finger marks on the monitor.  Though all the examples in that video were of fluid movements and require holding your hands in the air for a length of time.  How's it going to work on the simple things like editing in a document where precision cursor placement and highlighting is necessary?

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## BigRed

> Though all the examples in that video were of fluid movements and require holding your hands in the air for a length of time. How's it going to work on the simple things like editing in a document where precision cursor placement and highlighting is necessary?


Yes, the clicky bit is tricky. I imagine they will have to do away with the touchpad but keep the left/right mouse buttons on the keyboard. It should handle all the touch type work of a tablet just as well as the tablet, or maybe we will have a wand instead of the mouse and have the keys on that, but I doubt it somehow. Personally, in a text document I currently use the keyboard as much as possible anyway. 

A lot of touch features started being added in windows 7, have you noticed that right clicking on an item on the task bar brings up a context menu, but so does dragging up from the taskbar, plus if you look at the toolbars available for the taskbar there is a tablet input toolbar.

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## Anatidaephobia

Skip to 4:10 for the relevant 'money' conclusion -- because that is actually what is happening.

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## Anatidaephobia

Philip Greenspun&#039;s Weblog » Christmas gift for someone you hate: Windows 8


Suppose that you are an expert user of Windows NT/XP/Vista/7, an expert user of an iPad, and an expert user of an Android phone. you will have no idea how to use Windows 8.

What are the best features of Android? A permanently on-screen Back button. A permanently on-screen Home button. Neither of these are present on the Windows 8 tablet screen. Every app developer implements the Back feature in a manner and location of his or her own choosing (Microsoft apps seem to put a big arrow on the top left of the screen; other developers used the bottom left; many screens do not have a Back option at all).

What is the best feature of iOS on the iPad? A permanent hardware Home button. It isnt as convenient as going Back on Android but at least it facilitates re-navigating to wherever you were. The closest thing to a full-time Home button in Windows 8 is the windows key on the keyboard (but the whole idea is that the keyboard is not always available/required).

What is the best feature of Windows XP/Vista/7? Click right on an object to get a context-dependent menu of useful functions. Android copied this feature: touch and hold an item in order to get a context-dependent menu of options. The Windows 8 tablet interface lacks this interface standard.

Microsoft has had since October 2008 to study Android. It has had since June 2007 to study iPhone. It seems as though they did not figure out what is good about the standard tablet operating systems.

One thing that Android and iOS do not address is how to handle the requirement of offering a legacy Xerox Alto-style mouse and windows environment. Microsoft here integrates the tablet and the standard Windows desktop in the most inconvenient and inconsistent possible way. Due to the desperation of the average consumer to watch television at all times on all devices, the typical computer screen is fairly wide. One would think therefore that it would be possible to use traditional applications in the left-hand two-thirds of the screen while running a tablet environment on the right-hand one-third of the screen. Windows 8 does not allow this. It is either the old Windows XP desktop or the new Android-like tablet environment. As far as I can tell they cannot be mixed except that a tablet app can be set to appear in a vertical ribbon on the left or right edge of the screen.

A reasonable user might respond to this dogs breakfast of a user interface by trying to stick with either the familiar desktop or the new tablet. However, this is not possible. Some functions, such as start an application or restart the computer are available only from the tablet interface. Conversely, when one is comfortably ensconced in a touch/tablet application, an additional click will fire up a Web browser, thereby causing the tablet to disappear in favor of the desktop. Many of the apps that show up on the all apps menu at the bottom of the screen (accessible only if you swipe down from the top of the screen) dump you right into the desktop on the first click.

Confused about how the tablet apps work and want to Google for the answer? You go to a Web browser in the desktop interface and cant see the tablet interface that youre getting advice on how to use. Keep your old Windows 7 machine adjacent so that you can Google for How to use Windows 8″ on the old computer and have the pages continuously visible.

The only device that I can remember being as confused by is the BlackBerry PlayBook. I would find this machine a lot more useful if it simply ran Android as a sub-environment and did so in the right-hand third of the screen. Comments from those who love Windows 8 would be especially appreciated.

To end on a high note, some of the supplied apps are wonderful, e.g., the Bing Finance app. Swiping back and forth on a 27-inch screen is a great way to get a comprehensive picture of a lot of information quickly. (Of course, this would be equally true if one had a similar app on a 27-inch Android tablet it is just that there arent any high-res 27-inch Android devices of which I am aware.)

[This article is based on using Windows 8 on what may be the best current hardware: Dell XPS One 27 computer with a quad-core i7 CPU, 16 GB of RAM and a solid state hard drive accelerator ($2600). I will try to write a bit about the Dell hardware in a subsequent posting. The screen is beautiful. The supplied keyboard is tiny, as if made for a clown. The display tilts down easily, making it easy to get up from one's chair to read a web page while standing.]

[Separate issue: Given how misguided the whole design of Windows 8 seems to be, why have tech journalists given it basically positive reviews? My theory is that journalists love anything new, different, and complicated. Windows 8 is all of those things.]

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## Mid

Bad News for Microsoft .... XP still rocks  :Smile:

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## slackula

How Ballmer manages to stay in his job is a mystery, Vista, Vista 2.0(aka 7) and now this?

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## Anatidaephobia

Excluding the Windows releases, you have to include:

- asleep on the job when it came to tablets and ceding that market, and losing the netbook and laptop market to Apple. 

- completely losing and ceding the windows mobile market to Apple (his only answer was to famously laugh at iPhone, yet do nothing)

- firing Robbie Bach, Ray Ozzie and now Steven Sinofsky - ie the only guys that knew what they were doing (and could have been seriously considered as his replacement)

- oh yeah, and Windows 8 (Windows 7 was actually decent) and having overseen zero stock growth under his tenure. None. At all.

The list goes on.

I suspect next year Ballmer will be shown the door.

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## Troy

hmmm....I have been programming with touch screen GUI's since the early 90's....

They do not have to have an OS designed specifically for them.....

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## Butterfly

MS without Bill and Ozzie is a sinking ship, Ballmer is a drunk and a bully and he will run thee company to the ground

hopefully the board will see it coming and fire his ass,

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## Anatidaephobia

> MS without Bill and Ozzie is a sinking ship, Ballmer is a drunk and a bully and he will run thee company to the ground
> 
> hopefully the board will see it coming and fire his ass,


If the board hasn't seen it by now, they won't do anything until the death spiral is unrecoverable.

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## Neo

80% customers choose Windows 7, says PC builder in US - Feature - Techworld.com

Understandable really, as an independent supplier their customers are actually given a choice. 




> "Windows 7 is known, it has years of solid reputation behind it, but  Windows 8 has gotten a mixed reaction in the press and social media, and  the lack of a Start menu is a hot-button issue among our customers,"  said Jon Bach, president of Puget Systems, a Washington state  independent PC builder.


People are becoming more tech savvy and the companies like Puget are meeting their needs. 
A main stream company would probably tell you Windows 8 is selling very well, but they have thousands of pre configured devices to move and therefore need to talk Win8 up.

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## Anatidaephobia

> A main stream company would probably tell you Windows 8 is selling very well


Which is what Microsoft is claiming, but they aren't telling you that these are just the regular Windows licenses packaged with brand-new PCs (which the same customers option for Windows 7 are also paying for - surprising, when you buy a Windows 7 installation on a new PC, it is actually being counted as a Windows 8 deploy by Microsoft. Shocker!

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## Butterfly

if users were given the choice between Win7 and WinXP, they would choose WinXP

the problem is that MS is doing the choice for you these days,

most brain dead users don't even know why they need to upgrade to Win7, let alone Win8

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## Anatidaephobia

Most users are new PC buyers.

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## Neo

> if users were given the choice between Win7 and WinXP, they would choose WinXP


 :Trolling:

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## Gerbil

Win xp was good.

Vista was 'so-so' and not worth upgrading to for most users.

Transition from win xp (or vista) to win 7 was easy for most users as interface was basically the same and win 7 on the whole is much better than either.

Win 8 is a dogs fucking breakfast though.  :Sad:  I have it installed on a spare machine and it is just fucking horrible. I would have to make a conscious effort to learn to use it and the things I have discovered so far are just a huge step backwards.

There needs to be a clear separation between tablet and desktop interface. You need to be able to choose between one or the other as a default start up. Most importantly though, you should not *have* to switch between interfaces as you do now to control certain aspects of the system.

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## Butterfly

people upgrading to Win7 or Win8 for no real reasons deserve all the shit they get from it

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## Neo

people that upgraded to Win7 didn't get any shit.. that is the point that you continuously refuse to grasp.. yes you've got XP.. big fucking deal so has most of the rest of the planet.. so you're too tight to upgrade and you're scared of having to change because you can barely work out how to flick the switch that turns on your wi-fi let alone navigate your way around a new OS .. we know already ffs!

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## Troy

> if users were given the choice between Win7 and WinXP, they would choose WinXP


No, I don't think that is true. One of the biggest differences is the User Account Control. Although you can set it to be the same as Win XP, you lose all the benefits by doing so. It bumps up the security of the machine to a level that I think makes it a worthwhile OS. Anyone who has had one of those wretched viruses attack their machine in some pathetic little way through a VB script will understand what I mean. It is more than just an admin rights blocker (similar to root access being blocked in Ubuntu) and to start with I found it a real pain in the neck....However, when you realise what is going on and play by the rules it is a hell of a lot better than the old XP model. Use the system like you would use /usr/bin and /usr/local/bin in unix and it works a dream....

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## Anatidaephobia

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> if users were given the choice between Win7 and WinXP, they would choose WinXP
> 
> 
> No, I don't think that is true. One of the biggest differences is the User Account Control. Although you can set it to be the same as Win XP, you lose all the benefits by doing so. It bumps up the security of the machine to a level that I think makes it a worthwhile OS. Anyone who has had one of those wretched viruses attack their machine in some pathetic little way through a VB script will understand what I mean. It is more than just an admin rights blocker (similar to root access being blocked in Ubuntu) and to start with I found it a real pain in the neck....However, when you realise what is going on and play by the rules it is a hell of a lot better than the old XP model. Use the system like you would use /usr/bin and /usr/local/bin in unix and it works a dream....


Don't confuse butterfly.

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## Butterfly

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> if users were given the choice between Win7 and WinXP, they would choose WinXP
> 
> 
> No, I don't think that is true. One of the biggest differences is the User Account Control. Although you can set it to be the same as Win XP, you lose all the benefits by doing so. It bumps up the security of the machine to a level that I think makes it a worthwhile OS. Anyone who has had one of those wretched viruses attack their machine in some pathetic little way through a VB script will understand what I mean. It is more than just an admin rights blocker (similar to root access being blocked in Ubuntu) and to start with I found it a real pain in the neck....However, when you realise what is going on and play by the rules it is a hell of a lot better than the old XP model. Use the system like you would use /usr/bin and /usr/local/bin in unix and it works a dream....


nonsense, the admin rights thing is one thing, 

the whole redesign of the UI ala Steve Jobs  is what make this release complete worthless,

if I wanted real security and a real OS and a "fair" UI, I would switch to Ubuntu, not Win7

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## Butterfly

> Don't confuse butterfly.


you are the only to be confused, macboy

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## baldrick

I recently purchased an asus s400ca-ca012h , i5 14 inch touchscreen notebook for my mothers 65th birthday.

she is enjoying the touch interface.

previously she was using ubuntu on a dual atom machine attached to the television.

she can web browse , webmail , skype , print - all she needs to do

I think many of the gripes about win 8 come from users without the portable touch screen

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## Boon Mee

> people upgrading to Win7 or Win8 for no real reasons deserve all the shit they get from it


Well, it's impossible to buy a machine with XP on it these days.  This was true 2 years ago when I bought my last laptop with Windows 7.  The entire Zeer complex selling mucho computers had no XP machines.

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