#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Farming & Gardening In Thailand >  >  Fish-farming questions and ideas.

## Dalton

Hi TD members.

I have started this thread in hope of that some of you might consider to try doing some fish-farming, it can be a nice hobby and doing the right things, it might also provide an little extra income.  :Smile: 
So if you have any questions or ideas, then please post away  :Smile: 

Cheers

Dalts.

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## blackgang

OK, we are short of water for the last 4 or 5 years since the weather has changed, what do I do if I don't have enough water from rain to keep my pond full for my fishes no more??

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## Dalton

Do you have ground-water source availible ?? If so that can be used, provided that then water in your pond dont drain out to fast. If it does then you are limited only to raise fish during the raining season or you can put a liner in your pond to hold the water, you then need a lower stocking density of-cause. There's ways around water-shortage, but it costs money.

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## obsidian

^^  :Smile:

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## CharleyFarley

I'll try to be concise.

If the pond has stagnant water that is not easy to refresh, and is only 1.5 metres deep, what is the most productive fish to farm?

Given the above , is there an easy and cheap way of oxygenating the water if necessary?

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## Dalton

> If the pond has stagnant water that is not easy to refresh, and is only 1.5 metres deep, what is the most productive fish to farm?


My choice would be cat-fish (plar-duc) they are very resistant to muddy low oxygen water, after they reach 40-50 grams, before that stage they need better quality water.





> Given the above , is there an easy and cheap way of oxygenating the water if necessary?


You can use a small pump to make a fountain, to get some movement and oxygen into the water.

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## sabang

We're getting a modest house built near Ubon, and are planning to put a fish pond in. Mainly just to supply friends & family, and for me to do a spot of fishing when I'm up there. Not much else to do, except drink.

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## Thetyim

> My choice would be cat-fish


What would be your second choice ?
I don't want to do catfish

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## Dalton

> What would be your second choice ? I don't want to do catfish


Second choice would be Plar Nin, but that will involve some water-change, even if you use a pump to create oxygen, and you would need to keep a low stocking density (not more than 1 to 2 fish/m2)

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## Thetyim

Thanks, I am way overstocked then.

The problem is that Pla Nin breed so fast
Every couple of months an extra 300 fingerlings appear

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## Dalton

> The problem is that Pla Nin breed so fast Every couple of months an extra 300 fingerlings appear


You need to use sex-reversed Plar Nin, if not then they will only breed and not grow... :Smile:

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## Thetyim

Well as I am way overstocked I could remove all the Pla Nin which would leave me about the correct number of TapTim.
Do TapTim need to be sex reversed as well?

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## CharleyFarley

Up here in Chiang Rai, the cuurent liveweight price per kilo for catfish is 60 Baht

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## blackgang

> Do you have ground-water source availible ?? If so that can be used, provided that then water in your pond dont drain out to fast. If it does then you are limited only to raise fish during the raining season or you can put a liner in your pond to hold the water, you then need a lower stocking density of-cause. There's ways around water-shortage, but it costs money.


No ground water available, Fil drilled down to damn near 600 meters and no water, I drilled down in another place 160 meters and no water.
The pond was dug by the govt on family land to supply neighbors with irrigation water, but has since been abandoned and turned back to family, who still let folks get water for irrigation, and thats what happens to the water, but before the drought set in we still raised a few thousand fish a year, but now it just gets to damn low and drys up some years, plus Fil died.

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## Dalton

> Well as I am way overstocked I could remove all the Pla Nin which would leave me about the correct number of TapTim. Do TapTim need to be sex reversed as well?


No need to clean out the whole pond for fish, and the get your new fry or finger-lings from a source who supply sex-reversed Plar Nin and Tap-Tim (I can help you in that matter) There is no point messing around with the ones you have, since they are mixed sex..

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## Dalton

> No ground water available, Fil drilled down to damn near 600 meters and no water, I drilled down in another place 160 meters and no water. The pond was dug by the govt on family land to supply neighbors with irrigation water, but has since been abandoned and turned back to family, who still let folks get water for irrigation, and thats what happens to the water, but before the drought set in we still raised a few thousand fish a year, but now it just gets to damn low and drys up some years, plus Fil died.


Tough enviroment for fish-farming... :Sad: ....Not any easy cheap solution to that problem, cant fight against mother-nature... :Smile:

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## Dalton

> Up here in Chiang Rai, the cuurent liveweight price per kilo for catfish is 60 Baht


What size is that ??

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## Thetyim

At what age/size is the sex reversal done?
I am pissed off that none of the "thai experts" that I spoke to told me about this.
How can I tell if they are all male or not ?
Does the price increase  ?

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## Dalton

> At what age/size is the sex reversal done?


From day 1 and will end when they are 23 to 25 days old.





> I am pissed off that none of the "thai experts" that I spoke to told me about this.


What to exspect....How much did you pay per fish ??





> How can I tell if they are all male or not ? Does the price increase ?


You cant at that age, you'll have to trust your source. The price for male fry plar Nin is around 32-34 satang and 42 for Tap-Tim.

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## CharleyFarley

^^I'll double check in town 2moro

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## obsidian

is sex reversal pleasurable to eiter the fish or the reverser?

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## crabfat

I had thought about doing this using 4 x 4 metre tanks split in half so that you can get to the fish easier. I though 4 of those in a row on a small downslope so that the water flows into each tank and using the first tank as a filter and pumping the dirty water back into the filyer tank.
I have access to the moo ban water from the government but I think the tanks will need topping up on a daily basis.
Do you think that would work?
I have done some drawings in excel but due to my low number of posts I am not allowed to add attachments. Sorry.

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## Dalton

> is sex reversal pleasurable to eiter the fish or the reverser?


I can hook you up, if you wanna try...

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## Dalton

> I had thought about doing this using 4 x 4 metre tanks split in half so that you can get to the fish easier. I though 4 of those in a row on a small downslope so that the water flows into each tank and using the first tank as a filter and pumping the dirty water back into the filyer tank. I have access to the moo ban water from the government but I think the tanks will need topping up on a daily basis. Do you think that would work? I have done some drawings in excel but due to my low number of posts I am not allowed to add attachments. Sorry.


You have the right idea, for small recirculation system, try to have a look on the thread called "my farm used for final project" there's some pics of the setup I have. You can email your drawings to me, I'll send you a PM wit my mail.

Cheers

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## CharleyFarley

I mixed up wholesale and retail prices....duuhhh

They normally buy/sell them at 100 gms plus, but if they get to beer bottle size the price begins to drop.

Our fish behave like Pirahnas at feeding time now, one more month and off to market we go.

Next to Nong Luang lake south of Wiang Chai there is a fisheries centre we used for advice years ago re sex reversed Pla nin and Tap tim. We bought 1000 pink fingerlings and a few weeks later they all suddenly disappeared from our pond.

I know all about walking catfish but nothing about walking fucking tilapia :Confused:

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## sabang

^ What about walking Thai with nets  :Smile:

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## Thetyim

> We bought 1000 pink fingerlings and a few weeks later they all suddenly disappeared from our pond.


I lost 100 TapTim to a single PlaChon fish.

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## Driventowin

> I'll try to be concise.
> 
> If the pond has stagnant water that is not easy to refresh, and is only 1.5 metres deep, what is the most productive fish to farm?
> 
> Given the above , is there an easy and cheap way of oxygenating the water if necessary?


Dalton has an idea but ideally you could purchase some spa jets and install them on a row of pipes and run the pump water through them, they in turn will produce an air injected system of fresh agitating aeration along with flowing water..

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## blackgang

I have seen in the southern states of the USA in catfish ponds, a raft like affair with a double shaft motor and a set of paddle wheels on the shaft and as the motor spins it throws water in the air and churns up a lot of water and does a good job of aeration.

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## Thetyim

^
They use those aerators a lot in thailand for shrimp farming.

( Don't mention the USA one's again because the Thais think they invented it)

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## crabfat

> Originally Posted by crabfat
> 
> I had thought about doing this using 4 x 4 metre tanks split in half so that you can get to the fish easier. I though 4 of those in a row on a small downslope so that the water flows into each tank and using the first tank as a filter and pumping the dirty water back into the filyer tank. I have access to the moo ban water from the government but I think the tanks will need topping up on a daily basis. Do you think that would work? I have done some drawings in excel but due to my low number of posts I am not allowed to add attachments. Sorry.
> 
> 
> You have the right idea, for small recirculation system, try to have a look on the thread called "my farm used for final project" there's some pics of the setup I have. You can email your drawings to me, I'll send you a PM wit my mail.
> 
> Cheers


Did that this afternoon.

My mate is telling me something about a government fish place at Bung Boraphet near Nakhon Sawan. Does it ring any bells with you?

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## blackgang

> ( Don't mention the USA one's again because the Thais think they invented it)


Sorry, my bad....

But they use them also at the settling ponds where they have to treat water at the papermills in the North west before they can dump it back into the rivers.

I forgot about them, as I have seen them a lot up there.

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## Driventowin

> ^
> They use those aerators a lot in thailand for shrimp farming.
> 
> ( Don't mention the USA one's again because the Thais think they invented it)


Yeah this was what I was referring to when I posted about my trip to China in Dalton's other thread..But this is too elaborate and a bit of overkill for the smaller ponds being described here..

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## blackgang

^ Why would that be so, it is cheap and does the job fairly well and not to much bother.
And seems that they already know how to make em.

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## Thetyim

Some thai aerators here.
Model RX7 only uses a single hp motor

http://www.rid.go.th/eng/Water&#37;20Treatment%20Work.htm

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## Driventowin

> ^ Why would that be so, it is cheap and does the job fairly well and not to much bother.
> And seems that they already know how to make em.


Yeah but BG they fling a lot of water.. Not a very beneficial result in small areas where you have to replenish water, they also induce more evaporation too, so from those points in small applications it is better to have a smaller aerator for injection with out so much agitation. I don't mind telling you that here in Thailand I would be highly dubious of the safety factor having one of those 220V motors suspended over the water like that with the electric having to be run through it as well.. 

My frigging microwave shocks the piss out of me if I ever touch it without slippers on or stand on a mat so I certainly wouldn't want to have any contact with something like this anywhere near water..

But hey I already suggested it before so I'm not entirely shooting it down either, I just don't think it is a good application in these smaller cases..

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## blackgang

sounds like you need 3 wire service in your shack and grounded plug ins,, I did that when we built this place, now no shoes and touch anything,, but we also wear shoes mostly or at least slippers inside.

But replacing a little water wouldn't hurt anything either, but we have no water well and can't get one so it better rain, and I am going to add more storage this year,

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## Thetyim

> My frigging microwave shocks the piss out of me if I ever touch it without slippers


Have you tried turning the plug the other way around ?
Sometimes it stops that.  Sorry off topic, carry on fellows

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## Driventowin

> Originally Posted by Driventowin
> 
> My frigging microwave shocks the piss out of me if I ever touch it without slippers
> 
> 
> Have you tried turning the plug the other way around ?
> Sometimes it stops that. Sorry off topic, carry on fellows


Yeah I know the polarity gets switched here all too often and the problem with turning the plug around is it doesn't work if anything else is plugged into it, because you get feed back through the other appliance, something is always backwards if you know what I mean? I don't own this place and it is common everywhere here in Thailand to have this problem.. This place is better than most they do have some grounded outlets but not every one..

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## lom

> Yeah I know the polarity gets switched here all too often


Yes, 50 times per second. Or in other terms 50 Hz. :Smile:

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## blackgang

> This place is better than most they do have some grounded outlets but not every one..


Are they actually grounded with a thitrd wire or are they just 3 hole plugins so you can not have to cut off the ground lug from the plugs, I have seen that and we have also bought a short cord 3 hole plug strip to take with us when we travel so the wife can plug her laptop in when we are at hotels,, but the cord in it is only 2 prong and no 3rd wire in the strip.

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## Dalton

> We bought 1000 pink fingerlings and a few weeks later they all suddenly disappeared from our pond. I know all about walking catfish but nothing about walking fucking tilapia


No chance of them walking away  :Smile:  More likely some Plar-Chon (snake-head) left in the pond, did you see any dead fish ??

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## Dalton

> I lost 100 TapTim to a single PlaChon fish.


They are very effective predators.. :Smile:

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## Dalton

> I have seen in the southern states of the USA in catfish ponds, a raft like affair with a double shaft motor and a set of paddle wheels on the shaft and as the motor spins it throws water in the air and churns up a lot of water and does a good job of aeration.


They are used here in Thailand as well, mostly for shrimp farms through.

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## Dalton

> My mate is telling me something about a government fish place at Bung Boraphet near Nakhon Sawan. Does it ring any bells with you?


I have never been there, but each district in Thailand normally has a department of inland fisheries.

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## Dalton

> Why would that be so, it is cheap and does the job fairly well and not to much bother. And seems that they already know how to make em.


For shrimp it will work, but not really for Plar Nin, unless you start changing water and fight the problems with increasing ammonia and nitrite as a higher stocking density will create.

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## Driventowin

> Originally Posted by Driventowin
> 
> Yeah I know the polarity gets switched here all too often
> 
> 
> Yes, 50 times per second. Or in other terms 50 Hz.


Wise arse... :Razz:   :Smile:

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## Driventowin

> Originally Posted by Driventowin
> 
> This place is better than most they do have some grounded outlets but not every one..
> 
> 
> Are they actually grounded with a thitrd wire or are they just 3 hole plugins so you can not have to cut off the ground lug from the plugs, I have seen that and we have also bought a short cord 3 hole plug strip to take with us when we travel so the wife can plug her laptop in when we are at hotels,, but the cord in it is only 2 prong and no 3rd wire in the strip.


Any thing's possible BG, I know everything safety wise here is shite.. With a ground they couldn't reverse the polarity the way they do it would have to be wired properly or it would blow breakers.. 

I haven't gone through the house, as I said it's not mine, so no way I'm going to waste my time..I know there is some grounding though because my water heater is grounded and I have seen grounding in the attic where all of the wires are exposed with typical Thai wiring..I noticed the same thing myself about the extension cords here.. Anyway, we're distracting from Dalts thread..

So back on topic Dalton have you considered installing a few Spa jets on you tank return lines to aerate the water??

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## CharleyFarley

Pla-chon...yep they're the bastard cluuprits. 

We found several of them floundering outside the pond after heavy rains. Bigger than my forearms..2 Kgs + :Smile: 

They can jump/flip like buggery.

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## Driventowin

> Pla-chon...yep they're the bastard cluuprits. 
> 
> We found several of them floundering outside the pond after heavy rains. Bigger than my forearms..2 Kgs +
> 
> They can jump/flip like buggery.


Yeah they've become a real problem in the States too.  :Sad:  They can move from pond to pond out of the water for a period of time when their food source gets decimated, kind of like a walking cat fish..

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## kingwilly

> Yeah they've become a real problem in the States too. They can move from pond to pond out of the water for a period of time when their food source gets decimated, kind of like a walking cat fish..


mind you, they do eat all the AIDS bearing mosquitoes as well!

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## Dalton

> So back on topic Dalton have you considered installing a few Spa jets on you tank return lines to aerate the water??


Nope, I have no problem with aeration, I use a modified super-charger as oxygen source. However I use the system you're talking about in our protein-skimmers.. :Smile:

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## Driventowin

> mind you, they do eat all the AIDS bearing mosquitoes as well!


Wow! Now that's original! With a witty mind like that, ever thought about becoming a screen writer...Notttt!!!...Better keep your day job... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Driventowin

> Originally Posted by Driventowin
> 
> So back on topic Dalton have you considered installing a few Spa jets on you tank return lines to aerate the water??
> 
> 
> Nope, I have no problem with aeration, I use a modified super-charger as oxygen source. However I use the system you're talking about in our protein-skimmers..


Modified super charger huh?? That's creative..How much HP are you getting out of that??  :Smile:  I assume you are rotating it with an electric motor or are you using an engine? By the way you know there is a 12v electric super charger available.. 

It would cost where you probably acquired the one you have for much less but it would be more purposeful and require less operation by another source so would be more efficient and thus save it's additional cost and then some.. 

Spa jets?? Or the rotating aerator?

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## Dalton

> Modified super charger huh?? That's creative..How much HP are you getting out of that?? I assume you are rotating it with an electric motor or are you using an engine? By the way you know there is a 12v electric super charger available..


No idea how much air is puts out, but it's enough to keep 17 tanks with a DO between 10 to 15  :Smile:  I use a 2hp electric motor and a Honda engine at 5.5hp incase the generator wont start during a power-failure..

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## Driventowin

Pretty spiffy. Don't take offense but that's actually quite Thai like..In this case that's a compliment I have seen some inspiring Thai uses for things here..

I was really razzing about the Hp thingie though.. :Razz:   :Wink:

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## Dalton

^ It has run for a full year now 24-7, only the belt has been changed.. :Wink:

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## Arkwright

I am new to the fish pond idea for money, I dug a pond last year 125m by about 100m at the widest and 3m deep the rainy season filled it with water and fish, lots of fish, 7 diffeerent types that we have caught so far.
As for farming it I am a total novice and would appreciate any ideas.

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## baldrick

I realise Dalton is shacked up warmly inside some polar bears stomach so is not really available to help.

DD says he is starting a new pond thread in the construction forum shortly.

any advice about lining ponds with plastic - is it worth it and how much does it cost etc.

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## Smithson

^ We got a 50mx2m roll of 1mm thick PVC for B14k. Whether it's worth it depends on what you want to do, but without lining it will empty quickly after the rains. 

We have a nice waterfall and bamboo sala by the pond, we spend a lot of time there and are very happy. In the mornings and afternoons the fish swim towards you in a V shape, my father just visited and was quite impressed.

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## baldrick

was the plastic welded or have you just pegged it in the pond ?

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## dirtydog

My pond doesn't lose water, its about 50 meters by 10 meters, no lining though.

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## Smithson

> was the plastic welded or have you just pegged it in the pond ?


It's PVC so it's glued as one big piece and then laid down. The guy helping us wanted to cut small pieces and then glue them in place, to avoid having folds - very bad idea. 

A concrete ring is put around the top, this needs to be level. I watched while they set it using the water tube, it looked fine. Problem was one of the guys didn't know how to use the tube and didn't bother saying so. Instead he just kept saying 'OK' and moving onto the next section. The whole thing was seriously out of level and had to be redone.

Making sure the glue has a decent seal and that the top is level is most important. From my experience, Thais always rush things and never double check, so I'd check it myself.

I did a bit of searching on the net, but the best info came from this thread https://teakdoor.com/building-in-thailand-famous-threads/16604-buadhai-builds-a-pond.html

Our pond is much bigger than Buadhai's, but we used the same principles and are quite happy. The pond and bamboo sala cost around 28K, including the pumps and we've still got heaps of PVC left. Considering the climate here, it pays to have a nice outdoor area so it's money well spent. 

The fish come straight to us for a feed, which will make things ez in a few months when they're big enough to go straight on the BBQ.

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## andysmith

Which fish would you reccomend for a quick return/turnover we have jusi acquired a 320m x80m lake with 3 50m x50m ponds as well we intend to turn it into a fishing park and resort in 2 years time but want to fish farm in the meantime while building and development goes on.Nice to have some money coming in while we are outlaying on building restaraunt and bungalows etc.How quick would pangassius grow from one inch to market size same with tilapia any idea on prawns etc, How many  harvests per year????? Thanks.

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## tsicar

> Which fish would you reccomend for a quick return/turnover we have jusi acquired a 320m x80m lake with 3 50m x50m ponds as well we intend to turn it into a fishing park and resort in 2 years time but want to fish farm in the meantime while building and development goes on.Nice to have some money coming in while we are outlaying on building restaraunt and bungalows etc.How quick would pangassius grow from one inch to market size same with tilapia any idea on prawns etc, How many harvests per year????? Thanks.


don,t waste your time and money trying to farm fish in your dams. you will be hard pressed just to break even in the time-period  you have mentioned, and the learning curve alone will take longer than that. better off to stock your pangasius etc in the meantime: they should be a reasonable size by the time your park opens.
fastest growers would be pladouk, but you WILL NOT make a profit if you do it thai style, and you would probably never make a profit out of them farming the thai stuff in an earth pond in thailand..
feeding pellets in an earth pond with thai fingerlings will break your back, financially, and feeding them on anything else available locally (eg rotten chicken) will result in a year minimum of growth to a 40% average af the 30-50%survivors of your original stocking, if you are lucky, of small, but saleable size fish, which will NOT bring you a return on your investment. (you would be better off nursing sick buffalo!)
i wish you well with your venture, and please take this advice in the spirit it was meant, ie that of having your best interests at heart.

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## mellow

tsicar, it does seem however that some Thais manage to make money off this business. But maybe its an illusion.

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## tsicar

> tsicar, it does seem however that some Thais manage to make money off this business. But maybe its an illusion.


the only thais who make (a little bit of") money on it are the ones that use by-products of other farming operations for feed.
eg the chickenfarmer throws all his dead chickens in a pond to feed the pladouk and gets a small harvest once a year.
cp also "sets up farmers" for tilapia reared in cages on rivers, and they virtually become slave labour, getting trapped into contracts where cp is the only winner.
there is also the "government loan" scam, but none of these guys make what one of us would call: "money"
of course, if you speak to the thais, you will find that raising fish is easy and profitable, and every one of them is an expert and is making a fortune. (the "face" thing)

9s

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## mellow

Well someone must be doing something right, it seems to me that Thailand exports many farmed fish products. As does Vietnam, and other SE Asian countries.

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## Norton

> cp also "sets up farmers" for tilapia reared in cages on rivers, and they virtually become slave labour, getting trapped into contracts where *cp is the only winner*





> Well someone must be doing something right, it seems to me that Thailand exports many farmed fish products.


Yep.  Somebody is!  Also note, Dalton was doing quite well in the chicken business before he was squeezed out by CP and converted to the fish farming thing.

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## mellow

^ I would think he was making money Norton. He had 34 of those big tanks going, and making his own feed.

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## Norton

> I would think he was making money Norton. He had 34 of those big tanks going, and making his own feed.


Very little.  Made some on local sales but barely enough to cover costs.  I believe he only had a few of the 34 tanks producing.  His plan was to expand with the idea of selling fresh rather than frozen into the middle east.  He had a couple of investment partners but they pulled out of the arrangement.

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## mellow

^ Maybe should of concentrated on the local markets, people eat a lot of fish here. Tilapia goes for around 80 Baht a Kilo. Big C had an aquarium with a waterfall in it holding live Tilapia. I asked them what happened to it. They said that they couldn't git enough live fish to keep it running.

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## Norton

> Maybe should of concentrated on the local markets, people eat a lot of fish here.


My sentiments exactly.  Told him same.  The idea of selling live to ME may have been valid but to do it profitably would take a huge investment.  80 baht per kg you say.  This points out the volatility of fish (or any farming).  A little over a year ago it was 45 baht.  Nothing to say the price won't drop drastically again when supply catches up with demand.

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## mellow

> Originally Posted by mellow
> 
> Maybe should of concentrated on the local markets, people eat a lot of fish here.
> 
> 
> My sentiments exactly.  Told him same.  The idea of selling live to ME may have been valid but to do it profitably would take a huge investment.  80 baht per kg you say.  This points out the volatility of fish (or any farming).  A little over a year ago it was 45 baht.  Nothing to say the price won't drop drastically again when supply catches up with demand.


 What I noticed is that the price drops drastically for about 2 months after the local mud pond fish farmers try to get rid of their stock. I do believe however that there is a market for tank raised fish on a healthy diet. They taste better and are a better quality food source. There are many Thai people who are becoming conscious of the quality of food which they purchase.

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## tsicar

> Well someone must be doing something right, it seems to me that Thailand exports many farmed fish products. As does Vietnam, and other SE Asian countries.


the middlemen make the money.
the fishfarming thing works very similar to the rice farming. very few farmers are making very much money. 
normally subsistence farming would not produce enough to support an industry (i know that there are a few big ricefarming operations,) BUT:
you have in thailand a huge and efficient (and subsidised)transport industry, and just as the small ricefarmer can actually sell his ten bags of rice or so, make a small profit. normally he would not even be able to get the stuff to the market. same with the catfish. trucks run the entire length and breadth of the country, buying up a ton here, two tons at the next village, perhaps another 5 tons there.

i once went to a "large" cartfish operation near khorat.

the guy owns one of those battery chicken farms, and has around 30 ponds stocked with catfish. 
in the warm months the chickens die like flies, and he grinds them up and mixes them with cassava waste, dries it and feeds the catfish on it.
he does not rotate the ponds, so has one harvest a year, continuously has to pump water when the ponds go "off" (now uses a windmill to save costs).
well if you work out the protien value of the feed you will find that it is not enough for a catfish to grow. he may as well throw the chickenshit in the ponds, as it has a higher protien value than his homemade feed. the reason his fish grow at all is that the crap he is feeding them is producing algae, and the fish are feeding on this, the zooplankton that comes with the algae, and on each other.
i was there when the wholesalers came to net his ponds (looking for overgrown fish to harvest hormone for spawning), and the whole year of rearing produced him only 8 tons. 
about half the fish had to be thrown back because they were undersize (wrong thing to do, he should have destroyed them)
he was happy with the 256000 baht he got from the wholesaler. quite impressive for a thai farmer, and a lot of money for him. BUT
had he worked out his profit margin, he would have found out that he made no profit at all: labour, electricity, fingerlings and the feed for them for the first month until they were weaned onto the shit he was feeding would have eaten that all up, and remember: this guy is getting his "feed" for free!
he could easily have produced 10 to 20 tons for the year in just three tanks of 2m x1m, with a good biofilter, real feed and KNOWLEDGE, and he would have made a profit if he did it right. 
there are hundreds of these type of operations in thailand, and it is the only reason they have an "industry" at all.

when he finally goes bust, there will be another 30 to take his place.
same for the buffalo and the scrawny cattle, and most of the small pigfarmers.
they try their hand, get a loan from the giovernment, go tits up and are replaced by the next sucker, but in the meantime the market is supplied, because the middleman and the transport is there .
i can't speak for the prawn and shrimp industry, and i know thailand exports a lot of this, but i would be surprised if it worked any differently.

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## mellow

^ Somewhat my take on it. But I believe there is money to be made with a good clean running operation, which delivers a quality product locally.
 Check out A Visit to Dalton's fish farm. Interested in reading your responses after picking up my son from school.

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## tsicar

> ^ I would think he was making money Norton. He had 34 of those big tanks going, and making his own feed.


he made no money at all. he was into the bank for millions and into his investors for more. he had to shut it when the investors woke up and pulled the rug.

30 tanks wrong design for water exchange. wasting electricity running a bank of superchargers attatched to airstones, which made no difference to D.O levels
inefficient biofilter,far too small for 30 tanks resulting in high nitrite levels killing off all the fish as soon as they reached a certain size. feed was not giving him the protien needed for growout because the soya he was using was not UHT, meaning the 40% he thought he was getting was probably around 10. high labour costs, and an extravagant lifestyle killed his business.

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## tsicar

> ^ Maybe should of concentrated on the local markets, people eat a lot of fish here. Tilapia goes for around 80 Baht a Kilo. Big C had an aquarium with a waterfall in it holding live Tilapia. I asked them what happened to it. They said that they couldn't git enough live fish to keep it running.


ALL dalton's fish were sold on the local market: his wife even had a permanent stall there.
you are right about the shortages (supplies from subsistence operators)

he was not producing he was buying wholesale and selling at a small profit. the fish in his tanks were not growing out.

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## tsicar

> ^ Somewhat my take on it. But I believe there is money to be made with a good clean running operation, which delivers a quality product locally.
> Check out A Visit to Dalton's fish farm. Interested in reading your responses after picking up my son from school.


 
i DO agree that there is money to be made this way.I
yes, you will make more supplying the local market. the wholesalers will kill you off.
there is money to be made if you do it all right. in the tanks, about 10000baht per ton. don't know about the tilapia. probably greenwater would be best for profit.

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## tsicar

> Originally Posted by Norton
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by mellow
> ...


correct. and you can hold when the price is down, also no shortages, when the price is up.

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## Spin

> he could easily have produced 10 to 20 tons for the year in just three tanks of 2m x1m





> there is money to be made if you do it all right. in the tanks, about 10000baht per ton


So the 10,000 is the profit, right? 100,000 to 200,000 a year from three fairly small tanks. 
This might be something I'd like to have a crack at, I certainly have the free time.

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## tsicar

> Originally Posted by tsicar
> 
> he could easily have produced 10 to 20 tons for the year in just three tanks of 2m x1m
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


trying to find the site on the net that got me going. will give you an idea of what it entails and how it is done. i will post here when i find it. from one of the south african universities, but am having difficulty findin it right now.

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## mellow

tsicar, you wrote that the tanks were of poor design for water exchange. I do not understand this , because such circular tanks with the center standpipe, seems to be very popular and highly recommended by all the fish farming info on RAS.
 I would agree that the Bio filter which he had was lacking in that he didn't have a bottom drain on it, in order to get rid of dead bacteria, or any other solids which may accumulate at the bottom. After I spoke to him about it he added some (one in each tower). Please explain why you feel that the superchargers weren't supplying enough dissolved oxygen.
 The nitrite and Ammonia levels could of been dealt with by adding a simple foam fractioner.

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## mellow

Not disputing anything, just gleaning thoughts on the subject.

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## tsicar

> tsicar, you wrote that the tanks were of poor design for water exchange. I do not understand this , because such circular tanks with the center standpipe, seems to be very popular and highly recommended by all the fish farming info on RAS.
> I would agree that the Bio filter which he had was lacking in that he didn't have a bottom drain on it, in order to get rid of dead bacteria, or any other solids which may accumulate at the bottom. After I spoke to him about it he added some (one in each tower). Please explain why you feel that the superchargers weren't supplying enough dissolved oxygen.
> The nitrite and Ammonia levels could of been dealt with by adding a simple foam fractioner.


ok, here goes:

his tanks worked on an overflow system, meaning all the shit accumulated at the BOTTOM of the tanks, instead of exiting at the bottom as it would have had he used an external, swivelling upstand pipe.
he ended up drilling some small holes in the bottom, which was not enough, got clogged easily, and if his inflow varied (which it did sometimes) his tanks either emptied (which they did,killing the fish.) or overflowed (which they did.)

the filters were trickle-tower. these are a good system, but rely on a trickle of water running through a medium, (he used knotted canvas strapping as media)exposing the aerobic bacteria to oxygen and thus allowing them to do their job. his problem was that there was not enough flow for the amount of fish he was trying to rear. 
had he increased the flow-through, the filter would not have worked efficiently.
he would have needed at least another six towers to give him the necessary flow through at his tanks, which is exactly why i am not a big fan of trickle tower.
i calculated his flow-through at the tanks and i pointed out he was doing a water change only every 5 or 6 hours, but he insisted i was wrong. even catfish want a complete change about every hour.

had he had more towers, he wouild not have needed extra oxygenation, since the tower would have oxygenated the water sufficiently.
he contacted me by email on a few occasions, before i ever met him, explaining that he was losing large amounts of fish, and i told him the reason. i suggested he add salt to the water (tilapia can live at high salinity, unlike catfish, and salt helps with the nitrites), and this he did, but he had the idea that he could run with high oxygen levels, a high ph and too high nitrites. he bragged that he could get away with the toxic nitrite levels because of the high ph.well, this has a little truth in it, but actually, there are two kinds of amonias , one more toxic than the other, and at high ph levels, there is a higher concentration of the toxic one.

anybody who has raised aquarium fish or koi seriously, can tell you that 90% of oxygenation will occur at the surface. far less is to be gained using an airstone than by vigorously disturbing the surface. most of the oxygen an airstone will put in the water is at the point that the small bubbles burst on the surface.
he could have saved all that electricity just by raising the level and angle of his inlet pipe. i noticed the mistake first time i saw his system, and asked him by how much the airstones had increased his DO and he said he had not checked.
his electricity bill was somwhere around 40000baht per month, and his turnover was nowhere near that, so it was all just a matter of time.

making your own fishfood is not for ameteurs. dalton had no way of checking if his feed was adequate for his fish, nutrition wise, and he relied instead on a formula he got from a program he downloaded off the internet.
he did not know that the soya needs to be heated to over 100 degrees celsius for an hour in order for its protien to be accessible, and would not listen when i told him, instead telling me that the feed was "cooked in the extrusion process (where some, but not enough heat is produced), or it would not float"
i remember him posting on this forum about his fish not growing, attracting a lot of advice from various posters, from myself included, but we all assumed that his feed was ok, which it was NOT.
he said that it was the cold weather (IN BURRIRAM IN JUNE????)

so here's what went wrong:

inadequate filtration, wrong infrastructure, inadequate nutrition, totally inefficient us of energy and labour, inadequate monitoring of water quality, no record keeping, and a thai attitude to learning.

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## tsicar

i was really hoping that this would not become a "have a go at dalton" thread, since i really liked the guy, both as a poster and as a human being, but there is a lot at stake for people who may sink money into an operation that will bring no return, or fail because of incorrect advice, so i guess it had to come out, eventually. 
my conciense has been bugging me every time i saw the exchanges on the forum between dalton and mellow, and i have bitten my tongue till now, but since dalton seems to have left the forum, and since i don't think he will come back to thailand (DEFINITELY NOT TO FISHFARM), I feel relieved to have been able to release this information.
if anybody wants to do this type of aquaculture and succeed, they have to know that there is ONLY ONE WAY to do it, and if all the factors are not taken into account, the result will be failure. 
ALL the info is available on the internet (an whole lot of misinformation, too), and all the processes, especially with regard to producing catfish in an extreme high density environment have been tested and documented, and studied and perfected by universities all over the world, information having 
been shared between them for decades.
it is highly unlikely that you, or dalton, or myself will come up with a miraculous discovery, or be able to come up with an idea to circumvent the science that has been applied and proven and still be able to come up a winner.

remember that what the thai universities put out for aquaculturists has all had to be adapted and made suitable for the kind of person, and the education level of the likely thai fishfarmer, and although they (the university proifessors and aquaculture departments),
probably DO know what has to be known and are technologically aware of these processes, they have probably not released the information, because it would cause more chaos than another military coup in thailand, so what you will get in thailand is info to help a subsistence farmer earn a small living or produce a bit of protien for the family without getting confused or investing too much money.
do NOT follow any thai advice if you are looking for anything more than what i have just described.

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## mellow

^ To discuss a couple of points that you made:
I agree that a separate up stand pipe to discharge accumelated waste from the bottom of the tank is a welcome idea and should be used. The pipe does not have to be external. It can be located within the tank.  A lot of waste does however overflow with the single pipe.
 Trickle Towers are a good and inexpensive system, he had 4 towers with 3inch outlets. On gravity flow this could equal to 480gpm. If he would of had twice as many towers for 34 tanks, I believe he would have been alright. Serious modification of the settling tank could quite possibly have aleviated a lot of the problem too. There was no way to clean it out, without emptying the entire mechanical filtration tank. It was also quite a bit lower then his tanks and therefore prone to overflow. The media baskets he had put in there, once clogged up with sediment would considerably slow down the water flow comming from the tanks, causing them to overflow. I saw no by-pass to allow the system to keep running, during the clean out process. An extreme hasle in all aspects I believe when needing done. A complete water change every 2 hours could also be adequate.
 Oxygenation:The wife and I ran an experiment with 2 small RAS's wich used Trickle towers, and although they were about 20% in size of all the combined tanks in the unit, extra oxygenation was still needed, or the fish were gulping air on the surface. We ran stocked at 60 to 70%. The outlet pipe from the Bio to the tanks also had pipes going up, to alow air into and out of the delivery line. All Aquaculture operations I have read about or seen, employ added oxygenation. I am however looking for a way not too.
  I am certainly not having a go a Dalton who has always been cordial to both my wife and I. He has allowed me to visit a number of times to check out his farm. There I learned quite a lot, both from going all over the place to check out the systems themselves, and answering my questions. I hope he makes it back and is successfull. It is a good example to discuss though, because we have seen it, and it was operational, to an extend only Dalton knows for sure. Too bad he is no longer participating here. The list of do's and don'ts would be interesting.

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## tsicar

> ^ 
> I agree that a separate up stand pipe to discharge accumelated waste from the bottom of the tank is a welcome idea and should be used. The pipe does not have to be external. It can be located within the tank. A lot of waste does however overflow with the single pipe.
> .


if the upstand pipe is located outside of the tank, with it's inlet at the lowest level of a sloped tank floor, the waste accumulating at the bottom of the slope virtually gets sucked out when the pipe overflows, which is all the time that the water flows into the tank from the filter,  plus the outlet pipe  can be swivelled to adjust water level, and emptying of the tank to harvest or for maintenance is easy.
dalton was having to use a submersible pump to empty his tanks every time someone came to buy fish,    (electricity, time, labour.............)

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## tsicar

> Originally Posted by Spin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by tsicar
> ...


ok, i found this one which gives a good overview of how it all works, and whether you would think it worthwhile.have not read it all over again but i seem to remember there is a good section on polyculture, too.
just google:  "the biology and culture of the african catfish"
there are a few more really interesting ones, which are better for beginners, and if anybody wants ne to recommend, i will, but this one needs to be read first.

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## tsicar

> ^
> Oxygenation:The wife and I ran an experiment with 2 small RAS's wich used Trickle towers, and although they were about 20% in size of all the combined tanks in the unit, extra oxygenation was still needed, or the fish were gulping air on the surface. We ran stocked at 60 to 70%. The outlet pipe from the Bio to the tanks also had pipes going up, to alow air into and out of the delivery line. All Aquaculture operations I have read about or seen, employ added oxygenation. I am however looking for a way not too.
> .


yes, your tilapia may need oxygen, but there are far better ways to provide it than with airstones. since you are recirculating anyway, i should think you could add oxygen for free, as you have done with your venturi system, or by allowing the inlet to fall and splash the surface. a spray from the pump into the tower instead of a flow, a paddlewheel powered off the incoming water ,etc will also help. using a supercharger and an airstone is just plain stupidity.

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## mellow

> Originally Posted by mellow
> 
> 
> ^ 
> I agree that a separate up stand pipe to discharge accumelated waste from the bottom of the tank is a welcome idea and should be used. The pipe does not have to be external. It can be located within the tank. A lot of waste does however overflow with the single pipe.
> .
> 
> 
> if the upstand pipe is located outside of the tank, with it's inlet at the lowest level of a sloped tank floor, the waste accumulating at the bottom of the slope virtually gets sucked out when the pipe overflows, which is all the time that the water flows into the tank from the filter,  plus the outlet pipe  can be swivelled to adjust water level, and emptying of the tank to harvest or for maintenance is easy.
> dalton was having to use a submersible pump to empty his tanks every time someone came to buy fish,    (electricity, time, labour.............)


 If your drainage pipe is within the tank, you need a larger outside pipe and a smaller inner one with slots, or holes in it. You then pull on the outer bigger pipe, and the sediment likewise gets sucked out. It is then ejected out of the system directly. The tank can then be topped off, and also have a partial water change.

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## tsicar

> Originally Posted by tsicar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by mellow
> ...


i think you misunderstand, mellow.
the external pipe IS the overflow, and since you are recirculating water, the outflow is continuous, but the water "overflows" from the bottom, not the surface of the water, at the same rate as your inflow. not only for draining the sediment, but continuous outflow of heavier particles (solids) which naturally collect nearer the bottom of the tank and fouls the water.

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## mellow

^ link please.

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## tsicar

> ^ link please.


unfortunately i do not have a link for it, but i made mine like this (i think i posted this before here somewhere):

my tanks were rectangular, and if you want a circular tank you would be better off drawing from the centre of the tank.

 slightly sloping tank floor , with your drain at the lowest point. i use 4inch blue pvc for the entire thing, and you will need to make a small sump with a removable plastic grate to prevent escapees, mine were those plastic baskets you can get at the talaat: they come in different mesh sizes so you can upgrede larger as your fish grow.
outet runs to just past the edge of your tank, then a 90 degree coupling, NOT cemented to the drainpipe, so that it can be swivelled upwards or downwards.
 to the bend, add a pipe as high as the depth of your tank. 
now you can swivel the pipe down to adjust depth of water in the tank. the pipe will maintain the water in the tank since the tank and upstand pipe will always have the same water level.
do not worry about the swiveljoint coming undone -you may find it gets too tight, in which case you can sand the pipe down a bit to free it. i added a system using a spring to retain the joint, but it is not necessary.

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## mellow

Sorry , I am having a hard time visualizing how your system works. No problem imagining the pipe you describe, but visualizing how your water circulates in the system. A few pictures would certainly help. You said you did'nt invent any of this, therefore the info came from somewhere. I have not run across this, although I have been reading about it for a dozen years or more. Interesting.

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## tsicar

> Sorry , I am having a hard time visualizing how your system works. No problem imagining the pipe you describe, but visualizing how your water circulates in the system. A few pictures would certainly help. You said you did'nt invent any of this, therefore the info came from somewhere. I have not run across this, although I have been reading about it for a dozen years or more. Interesting.


ok i found a diagram of the upstand pipe on that site i recommended for spin. just click on the highlighted UPSTAND PIPE in the section on pond construction and you will find it.
http://cdserver2.ru.ac.za/cd/catfish/catfish/cat82a.htm

i constructed my tanks with this system before i found the info on the net, so i made a few mistakes, my tanks were too large for catfish they should be 2mx1mx1m. the water simply flows in at one end and out at the bottom of the other end of the tank through the upstand, falling (and adding some oxygen) into a drainage ditch then back to the filter.
the upstand can be used on circular tanks or ponds too.
the pics i found on that site they seem to be using 50mm pipe but the 4inch works better.

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## mellow

This explains nothing. For all purposes the label concrete sump, can simply be replaced to read filter. It would then be a normal stand pipe in any system, with water going to a filter.

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## tsicar

> This explains nothing. For all purposes the label concrete sump, can simply be replaced to read filter. It would then be a normal stand pipe in any system, with water going to a filter.


no, the small sump i made was just to house the plastic basket to prevent the fish going out of the drain. it is not really necessary- the point is that the solids laden water exits from where it collects, at the bottom of the tank, instead of remailing inside the tank as in the popular thai overflow pipe system, where you would have to manually drain it from the bottom of the tank, by removing the upstand pipe for a while. 
it is still an overflow system, but takes the water from the bottom of the tank.
if you take a glass of water and mix some dirt into it, you will find that the dirt slowly sinks to the bottom. now if you trickle clean water into the top of the glass until it overflows and gives you a water exchange in one hour, you will notice that most of the dirt stays at the bottom, and mostly clean water only overflows, as it does in an upstand overflow system. syphon the water from the bottom, and the solids exit, as they would in a swivelling external upstand system which takes the water from the bottom of the tank.

i used this system for the inlet, too, since it was easy to adjust the swivel pipe to give the exact flow i needed. i could let it fill a bucket of known volume while timing it, then calculate and adjust the exact amount of water going into the tank in an hour.

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## mellow

^ Sound's like the hard way of doing it, and it doesn't eliminate the sediment from the system, cause its going to your filters, our gets taken out from the system, on its own discharge line. Never even makes to the filter.

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## tsicar

> ^ Sound's like the hard way of doing it, and it doesn't eliminate the sediment from the system, cause its going to your filters, our gets taken out from the system, on its own discharge line. Never even makes to the filter.


takes the sediment out of the tanks with no input from labour., then goes to the settlement then a system of rocks stones and baffles for anaerobic conversion of solid waste,with a bottom drain on this tank for easy occasional cleaning, then only onto the biofilter for aerobic conversion clean water to tanks. no shit in the biofilter. no shit in the tanks and full anaerobic conversion of solids. almost no water is lost, almost no shit remains in the rearing tank and biomedia does not get clogged with crap. totally labour and energy efficient.
or you can do it the easy way, where you have to periodically climb into the rearing tank to pull out the pipe to get the sediment and dead fish out because you did not get the water exchange you needed (most of the clean water from the filter overflowed down the upstand and all the solids remained in your tank- try the experiment with the glass of dirty water which i suggested earlier) )and the solids stayed in the rearing tank, rotted and drove the ammonia levels sky high, which is what killed dalton's fish before they got to growout. as the fish grew, the larger ones died off until nitrite levels stabilised enough for deaths to cease, then they grew again, needed more feed, produced more nitrite, died off, etc.

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## mellow

^The brief overview of water chemistry is I'm sure welcome for many readers, but so far you have not shown how this external up-stand pipe works, and what happens to the water and sediment once it overflows out of it. A photo or diagram should be available.
 I have no idea about Dalton's water chemistry, his personal business practices, nor how he made his feed. All I can say is that when I spoke with him, he did not strike me as incompetent. I'm sure he had test kits, and if the water was heavily fouled, he would know how to do a water change.
 Please take the time to make a diagram, or take a couple of pictures with your phone, which illustrate the function of this external up-stand pipe, and what happens to the water once it overflows out of it.

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## tsicar

> ^The brief overview of water chemistry is I'm sure welcome for many readers, but so far you have not shown how this external up-stand pipe works, and what happens to the water and sediment once it overflows out of it. A photo or diagram should be available.
> I have no idea about Dalton's water chemistry, his personal business practices, nor how he made his feed. All I can say is that when I spoke with him, he did not strike me as incompetent. I'm sure he had test kits, and if the water was heavily fouled, he would know how to do a water change.
> Please take the time to make a diagram, or take a couple of pictures with your phone, which illustrate the function of this external up-stand pipe, and what happens to the water once it overflows out of it.


somewhere in amongst all my shit i have a memory stick with some pics, but for now it is missing. i will post more shit when i find it.
 honestly, though, all the stuff you asked about has the answers in the previous posts, or in the link i posted, even a diagram. you should be able to work it out yourself. 
 and this must be boring everyone else just as much as it is boring me. 
kinda getting a bit like the koi/comet debate of a few months ago, and i have no idea why.
do the "glass of dirty water" test yourself, and you should be able to understand what i have been talking about.

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## tsicar

> ^
> I have no idea about Dalton's water chemistry, his personal business practices, nor how he made his feed. 
> All I can say is that when I spoke with him, he did not strike me as incompetent. 
> 
> 'm sure he had test kits, and if the water was heavily fouled, he would know how to do a water change.


i know everything about his water chemistry, how he made his feed and how he ran his business.


neither his investors nor myself thought he was incompetent,
he just found a better way to make money out of his "farm" than by actually producing fish to sell.

he had test kits and he knew his nitrites were too high, he just thought he could circumvent the known science, and it backfired in his face.

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## mellow

OK, hope you find your memory stick.

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## Spin

> just google:  "the biology and culture of the african catfish"


For the benefit of others, here is the .link . Thanks Tciscar!

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## Spin

Tsicar's explanation seems easy enough to understand Mellow, even for a rookie like me. Taking the feed from the bottom of the tank syphons out unwanted cack. Taking it from the top just takes relatively clean water by the sound of things.

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## mellow

> Tsicar's explanation seems easy enough to understand Mellow, even for a rookie like me. Taking the feed from the bottom of the tank syphons out unwanted cack. Taking it from the top just takes relatively clean water by the sound of things.


  Sound's good to me too, that's why I want to see how it's done. I actually have to lift a pipe for this. He says his system does this without any labor, all the time. I would like to see this. I would like to see where the water goes once it comes out of this external up-stand pipe. How the "clean water " is recirculated, how the water level is maintained in the tanks by just falling into the tank to increase oxygenation.
 I feel behind the times in the systems that we have been using in the experiments and the current ones under construction. I actually have a regular stand up pipe which circulates water, and helps keep the water level in the tanks and filters. Then I have another pipe in each tank which has to be manually lifted to allow sediments to be flushed completely out of the system, with it's own exit pipe. To me this no labour approach is to say the least, very interesting. To me this is a new breakthrough which an untold number of fish farmers can benefit from. I am interested in the mechanics and the construction of something he has brought up, yet cannot produce any links, diagrams, or photos. Diverting attention away from this by skimming into brief comments on water chemistry, or Dalton's alleged actions or in actions , still does not illustrate this. Neither does eyeballing a glass with dirty water in it, to watch the dirt settle at the bottom.

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## tsicar

> Originally Posted by Spin
> 
> 
> Tsicar's explanation seems easy enough to understand Mellow, even for a rookie like me. Taking the feed from the bottom of the tank syphons out unwanted cack. Taking it from the top just takes relatively clean water by the sound of things.
> 
> 
> Sound's good to me too, that's why I want to see how it's done. I actually have to lift a pipe for this. He says his system does this without any labor, all the time. I would like to see this. I would like to see where the water goes once it comes out of this external up-stand pipe. How the "clean water " is recirculated, how the water level is maintained in the tanks by just falling into the tank to increase oxygenation.
> I feel behind the times in the systems that we have been using in the experiments and the current ones under construction. I actually have a regular stand up pipe which circulates water, and helps keep the water level in the tanks and filters. Then I have another pipe in each tank which has to be manually lifted to allow sediments to be flushed completely out of the system, with it's own exit pipe. To me this no labour approach is to say the least, very interesting. To me this is a new breakthrough which an untold number of fish farmers can benefit from. I am interested in the mechanics and the construction of something he has brought up, yet cannot produce any links, diagrams, or photos. Diverting attention away from this by skimming into brief comments on water chemistry, or Dalton's alleged actions or in actions , still does not illustrate this. Neither does eyeballing a glass with dirty water in it, to watch the dirt settle at the bottom.


mellow, i sent you a pm. hope it explains a few things.
cheers

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## Smithson

[quote=mellow;1097063]


> Sound's good to me too, that's why I want to see how it's done. I actually have to lift a pipe for this. He says his system does this without any labor, all the time. I would like to see this. I would like to see where the water goes once it comes out of this external up-stand pipe. How the "clean water " is recirculated, how the water level is maintained in the tanks by just falling into the tank to increase oxygenation.
>  I feel behind the times in the systems that we have been using in the experiments and the current ones under construction.


The idea is to create whirlpool effect when having water return to the tank. This will send all the poo to the bottom center where a pipe leading to the overflow will draw it out.

The diagram below shows an 'aquaponics' system that produces both fish and organic veggies. I set up a similar system and found that the 'whirlpool' effect and bottom fed overflow was very effective.



Below is a pic of well established system producing heaps of vegies. This may not be commercially viable, but it's a great hobby that can also feed a family.



Here's a commercial system that isn't well established yet.

FISH TANKS


GROWING AREA




Young strawberries in columns with young tomatoes in the background

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## tsicar

thanx for the pix and the diagram, smithson. looks like a similar setup to the external one i was talking about, but with added advantage of bypass overflow in event of blockages. 
important thing is that it takes the fouled water from the bottom, where most of it settles.
from here to the veg, then on to biofilter, or if you don't want to do veg, then normal septic-tank type system for processing of solids before return to biofilter. (i prefer the veggie step, tho!)

just a comment on the whirlpool: if the tank is circular and you have a circular motion of the water (whirlpool), the worst of the solids seem to congregate at the centre of the tank, so perhaps this should be where the syphon is positioned?
i seperate catfish fry that i accidentally syphon off while removing fungus and detrius from the hatchery tank this way: dump all the leftovers in a bucket and stirr it up, with a shaded area at one side of the bucket and a strong lamp above. strong fry that were accidentally sucked up will congregate under the sheltered part and the weak ones plus all the crap congregates at the centre, and this is easily syphoned off and discarded.

----------


## Smithson

> just a comment on the whirlpool: if the tank is circular and you have a circular motion of the water (whirlpool), the worst of the solids seem to congregate at the centre of the tank, so perhaps this should be where the syphon is positioned?


This is correct, it's just that the diagram is simplified. The hose filling the tank also needs to enter at an angle rather than just dropping in.

The growbed is actually the biofilter filled with gravel. It operates on a flood and drain with a loop auto syphon (shown as B on the diagram). As a rule of thumb, the grow beds should be twice the size of the fish tank, so you can imagine just how much vegies can be produced. The only thing that needs to be added is chelated iron and maybe seaweed extract for micronutrients.

Worms can be added to grow beds also, however in my system I found they somehow appeared by themselves. Growers have reported that after more than a year of production, their growbeds remained clear of dirt and dead plant roots - thw worms ate everything.

The part at the bottom is a sump, the level fluctuates with the flood and drain cycle of the growbed. It must contain enough water to fill the the growbed and have the auto syphon kick in. Otherwise the sump will run dry and this system stops working.



Not sure if I've explained it clearly, if not let me know.

----------


## mellow

Thanks for the pictures, and diagram Smithson. The venturi drain is a very nice idea. Don't want the vegies, although very nice set up. Their filtering capacity is very nice, but it needs a lot of room. Would also increase the amount of labour needed.
 The venturi drain is something which I will try and incorporate in future doings as my wife's fish farm evolves. But in a tank, I would still like to have a bottom drain, for obvious reasons. tsicar brought up aeration. I would like to tap other peoples idea about this. I am planning to use a Supercharger, whose air will be distributed via a manifold, delivered with air stones throughout the system. The system is of the recirculating type, with 51 tanks each holding 1 cu M of water.

----------


## tsicar

> Thanks for the pictures, and diagram Smithson. The venturi drain is a very nice idea. Don't want the vegies, although very nice set up. Their filtering capacity is very nice, but it needs a lot of room. Would also increase the amount of labour needed.
> The venturi drain is something which I will try and incorporate in future doings as my wife's fish farm evolves. But in a tank, I would still like to have a bottom drain, for obvious reasons. tsicar brought up aeration. I would like to tap other peoples idea about this. I am planning to use a Supercharger, whose air will be distributed via a manifold, delivered with air stones throughout the system. The system is of the recirculating type, with 51 tanks each holding 1 cu M of water.


mellow, why not rather use your supercharger to both aerate and pump your water at the same time?  look up info on "airlift systems". 
your airstones are not going to be an efficient way to do it.
profit margin is low, and you have to keep your costs down.
there is an interesting section in that link i posted, where it describes a home made system like this on a farm in zambia. they used a turbocharger from a truck. you might get some ideas there.

----------


## Smithson

[quote=tsicar;1103468]


> your airstones are not going to be an efficient way to do it.
> profit margin is low, and you have to keep your costs down.


This was the discussion in the AP forum, airstones aren't efficient enough, best to use the pump for aeration as well.

The profict margins are definitely low, I had did research for AP but decided due to the abundant water in Thailand, there's no way it could be profitable.

----------


## mellow

[quote=Smithson;1104457]


> Originally Posted by mellow
> 
> 
> your airstones are not going to be an efficient way to do it.
> profit margin is low, and you have to keep your costs down.
> 
> 
> This was the discussion in the AP forum, airstones aren't efficient enough, best to use the pump for aeration as well.
> 
> The profict margins are definitely low, I had did research for AP but decided due to the abundant water in Thailand, there's no way it could be profitable.


 That wasn't me quoting about air stones, or profit margin. But I do agree about keeping cost down.
 I looked at that picture in the link, and with a trickle tower the only way I can see of putting more oxygen in the water would be to aerate the last filter chamber prior to the water being pumped up into the Bio. I think I would still need air stones though.
 Whats the AP forum? Research the profitability of  what? Fish farming or air stones?

----------


## Smithson

^ I was wondering about AP as a business, but it's not viable. The forum is here Backyard Aquaponics &bull; Index page

If you're only looking at aquaculture, then don't worry about the diagram, AP is a balancing act - what's best for the fish isn't always best for the plants and visa-versa.

----------


## mellow

^ Only interested in Aquaculture, but a good link nonetheless. Could be profitable for you, if you were to concentrate on spices maybe. I know that some can be quite expansive. If you have done all that work, you should maybe look into that.

----------


## Smithson

^ If you're only interested in aquaculture the idea of tsicar regarding Plachon (snakeheads) sounds interesting. These are a nice eating fish and fetch a good price.

My present business does well enough, so no need to look for something new.I did the AP as a hobby, but don't really have the time for it. The pond I have set up could easily be configured to work like the system in the diagram, which I may do some day.

AP is a lovely concept, it's being taught in high school science lessons to explain the idea of 'closed loop' (no waste) environments and how waste products are actually resources.

Another idea was to set up a restaurant, where the AP system was visible and attractive. The idea of super-fresh organic food and fish may work.

----------


## tsicar

> ^ If you're only interested in aquaculture the idea of tsicar regarding Plachon (snakeheads) sounds interesting. These are a nice eating fish and fetch a good price.
> 
> .


i have done a lot of research on the plachon. the only info available on farming these fish that i could find comes from thailand, and it is, as usual, subsistence-based non-scientific and antiquated.
given the physical properties and their hardiness, (high tolerance to poor water quality, plus they have sub-branchial organ like catfish so can breathe air),i would think that they could be farmed at extreme densities in a recirculating system, and the very poor fcr the thais are getting (you woulld get the same from any other fish if you used the thai approach),is can probably be attributed to what and how they are feeding and rearing them. anyway, even if you got a 1:3 fcr, you would probably score, since the selling price is so high.

----------


## mellow

Will investigate the Plachon angle. I will also have to find a fingerling supplier if the market value is high. I thought most of the fingerlings where caught in the wild for this fish. Either way I'm still looking for some good aeration ideas. Although I have seen a few supercharger set up I would like more info on those, should anyone have a good link on it. tsicar, the one you gave me primarily showed 3 water jets, said the supercharger had to be geared down, and that's it. Saw Dalton's, and a neighbor down the road has got one he just put in. But I think he's getting worried about my wife's set up, although he only sell fingerlings ( he also works at the goverment fish farm) and my wife has told him she plans on growing fish out for the market.

----------


## BillyBobThai

I am in the planning stage to build a test setup to grow catfish in a high intensity
2 cubic meter tank with a 2 cubic meter bio-filter and a pond, 2 meter by  4 meter by 1/3 meter deep filled with these local water plants from the canal.
The water will flow from the fish tank to a setteling tank before entering the pond. The water will be pumped to a bio-filter tower and gravity back to the fishtank. A complete water change will be made once every hour.

My question is, what to use for my media in the bio-filter? The media needs to be inexpensive as quite a bit will be needed. I have considered gound up charcol, gravel, plastic mosquito netting, plastic shade cloth, shreded plastic bottles from the recycler, and coconut husk, but they disolve in a little over a week. 

Once I have made this setup to work, I plan on setting up enough tanks so that I can turn over 1 tank a month. This will take place at my home so the midnight
shoppers should not be a problem.  
Any thoughts will be apperiated.

Thanks

----------


## Dalton

Well well well, Tsicar is very gifted in the art of stabbing people in the back, that much I can say. Regarding his knowledge of fishfarming, then it all seem to be words on paper, I've seen his farm in Thailand and that looked kind of different.
I never said that I dont make mistakes, ofcause I do, but I'm the kind of man who try to do things in real life, not just writing about it. Many things need to be changed in my farm and I've learned from mistakes, and still I will make mistakes...It's called life...And life do go on, also for you Tsicar and I hope that your attack on me, has made you feel better about your life.

----------


## mellow

> I am in the planning stage to build a test setup to grow catfish in a high intensity
> 2 cubic meter tank with a 2 cubic meter bio-filter and a pond, 2 meter by  4 meter by 1/3 meter deep filled with these local water plants from the canal.
> The water will flow from the fish tank to a setteling tank before entering the pond. The water will be pumped to a bio-filter tower and gravity back to the fishtank. A complete water change will be made once every hour.
> 
> My question is, what to use for my media in the bio-filter? The media needs to be inexpensive as quite a bit will be needed. I have considered gound up charcol, gravel, plastic mosquito netting, plastic shade cloth, shreded plastic bottles from the recycler, and coconut husk, but they disolve in a little over a week. 
> 
> Once I have made this setup to work, I plan on setting up enough tanks so that I can turn over 1 tank a month. This will take place at my home so the midnight
> shoppers should not be a problem.  
> Any thoughts will be apperiated.
> ...


 Hello BBT, sounds like a neat project. We also built 2 experiments which we learned a lot from, before going for the real thing. We used rolled up shade cloth and it seemed to of worked well. Plastic banding (used would be cheapest) might be more durable. Also did one biofilter with mixed media, Bio balls and shade cloth.
Dalton is back on line, he has much more experience, especially hands on. He might decide to participate again. I took some pictures of his set up, check them out.
 Here are some links on media:
SYSTEM DESIGN

AN OVERVIEW OF BIOFILTRATION PACKINGS

Plastic Filter Media

 I don't know how your pond will work on this , unless you set it up so that it can be cleaned out, but then you  would have to be more specific.

 Here are some pictures of our experiments, 2 different systems. We learned a lot from them,  they worked pretty well.

https://teakdoor.com/Gallery/displayimage.php?album=random&cat=12189&pos=-56935

https://teakdoor.com/Gallery/displayi...189&pos=-56934

https://teakdoor.com/Gallery/displayi...189&pos=-56933
 Had to shut it down, the fish got too big, but the stocking density was at 60 to 70%. The fish were beautiful and healthy. Tasted very good with no fat. Will use these systems for incoming fingerlings later, when all is running.

----------


## mellow

Either way your gonna need a settling tank to get most of the solids out, and that will have to be drained and cleaned often.

----------


## tsicar

> I am in the planning stage to build a test setup to grow catfish in a high intensity
> 2 cubic meter tank with a 2 cubic meter bio-filter and a pond, 2 meter by 4 meter by 1/3 meter deep filled with these local water plants from the canal.
> The water will flow from the fish tank to a setteling tank before entering the pond. The water will be pumped to a bio-filter tower and gravity back to the fishtank. A complete water change will be made once every hour.
> 
> My question is, what to use for my media in the bio-filter? The media needs to be inexpensive as quite a bit will be needed. I have considered gound up charcol, gravel, plastic mosquito netting, plastic shade cloth, shreded plastic bottles from the recycler, and coconut husk, but they disolve in a little over a week. 
> 
> Once I have made this setup to work, I plan on setting up enough tanks so that I can turn over 1 tank a month. This will take place at my home so the midnight
> shoppers should not be a problem. 
> Any thoughts will be apperiated.
> ...


you can use ANYTHING inorganic(preferably) as media as long as you remember what you are trying to achieve in the first place: to expose as much of the contaminated water to many aerobic bacteria as possible. the larger the surface area, the better this will work, but remember that the bacteria need oxygen to function. this is the whole idea of the trickle tower, since the water is meant to TRICKLE down through it, collecting oxygen on its way, and the bacteria then doing their job on the way through it. you have to calculate very carefully how much you can TRICKLE through the media, to still have enough volume to supply your rearing tank at the required exchange rate.
you can calculate the surface area of your shade cloth (a good medium, and cheap). i personally am not a fan of trickle towers, mainly because i do not believe that a trickle of water will add up to the required volume at the outlet, but i am sure it can be done.
i used a similar system to the one you have described (but no trickle tower). my water ran through the tanks to settlement then onto a pond of approx 600 000 litres, pumped back from the pond then via spray nozzles which violently frothed and foamed the entire surface of the water into the first filter tank which was equipped with baffles to slow down the flow. between the baffles, rocks of diminishing sizes for more anaerobic conversion, then to media (hanging, weighted sheets of SHADENET (!) onto the third filter chamber filled with waterweed. the crystal-clear water that emerged from this setup (my kids and i used it for drinking water for over two years, with no ill effects) was then gravity fed to the rearing tanks. disadvantage of this system was that it took up too much space, the filtration having area of about three times the rearing tanks, if you did not include the pond, but i had the space, so what the hell.

----------


## tsicar

> Well well well, Tsicar is very gifted in the art of stabbing people in the back, that much I can say. Regarding his knowledge of fishfarming, then it all seem to be words on paper, I've seen his farm in Thailand and that looked kind of different.
> I never said that I dont make mistakes, ofcause I do, but I'm the kind of man who try to do things in real life, not just writing about it. Many things need to be changed in my farm and I've learned from mistakes, and still I will make mistakes...It's called life...And life do go on, also for you Tsicar and I hope that your attack on me, has made you feel better about your life.



firstly, my posts were not an attack on you, personally, simply an attempt to prevent would-be aquaculturists on this forum from making the same mistakes.
 there is nothing wrong with making mistakes. 
..................i think i made one myself, once!
and if you look back through my posts, i think you will find that i have published every one that i made regards fishfarming, to prevent others from following the same expensive learning curve.

BUT:

there IS something wrong with making OTHER, UNSUSPECTING PEOPLE PAY FOR YOUR MISTAKES. (you know what i am talking about)

i have no intention of turning this into a shitfight, so i will drop this right now and i will not reply to anything that you post that is not related to aquaculture.
 you are welcome to continue by pm if you wish. (thanks for the last one, btw)

----------


## BillyBobThai

Dalton,  I tried tp PM you,  but being a new member,  I do not have access to send them yet.  You seem to be one of the members who has quite a bit of experience and I would like to pick your brain on the subject of what type of media to use in my filter.  Please PM me and I can get your email address.

Thanks

BillyBobThai

----------


## Dalton

> Dalton, I tried tp PM you, but being a new member, I do not have access to send them yet. You seem to be one of the members who has quite a bit of experience and I would like to pick your brain on the subject of what type of media to use in my filter. Please PM me and I can get your email address.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> BillyBobThai


Hey BillyBob.

I have been away from the business the last year, so I would recomend that you listen to Mellows and Tsicar advice, they are both following the new devolopment in this matter. I'm sort of in standbye mode at this time. 

Regards

Dalton

----------


## DaffyDuck

^ 'nuff said.

This is a great thread - mostly because it contained a lot of information both in what to do, how to do it, and what to avoid.

I have a friend (Thai, of course), who wants to farm fish -- who stupidly went ahead, got a loan from the bank on her farmland, and on the advice of the local fish farm store (yeah, you know where this is going), had four ponds dug out that she spent all the money on, and now has no money left to buy fish. Sounds classic, doesn't it? Budgeting or pre-planning being unheard of to Thai 'business' people.

She claims the local store will teach and show her all that needs to be done -- obviously, based on the advice so far, I am less than convinced.

Obviously, she asked me for an additional 30,000 Baht (translation: 120,000 Baht) to 'buy fish'. Fortunately, I 'have no money'.

I am going to send a friend up there to check out what she has done so far, and get  some basic idea, though my expectation is:

- she wasted too much money she could have used intelligently if she had asked for advice BEFORE listening to some local who just wanted her money.

- far more needs to be invested now to set everything up the right way.

- I might as well flush the money down the drain, if I expect that things will run smoothly unless I'm present 24/7 over the next year, to make sure it doesn't get screwed up again.

Seems to me, at first glance, the money would be better spent on hookers and bar beers.

----------


## Smithson

> My question is, what to use for my media in the bio-filter?
> Thanks


What about bottle tops? They're food safe, have plenty of surface area, light and a recycling yard should sell them for FA.

Shade cloth may contain fire retardants, plastics in general can have some real nasties so you should be careful. I think this is worth discussing.

----------


## Smithson

> ^ 'nuff said.
> 
> 
> 
> She claims.... 
> 
> Seems to me, at first glance, the money would be better spent on hookers and bar beers.


Does she like hookers and bar girls?

----------


## tsicar

> Originally Posted by BillyBobThai
> 
> 
> My question is, what to use for my media in the bio-filter?
> Thanks
> 
> 
> What about bottle tops? They're food safe, have plenty of surface area, light and a recycling yard should sell them for FA.
> 
> Shade cloth may contain fire retardants, plastics in general can have some real nasties so you should be careful. I think this is worth discussing.


i had no plomplems with the shadenet. the bottletops are really good but you need tons of them. that shitty blue netting they sell in thailand also works fine, although it seems to clog up after a while. old nylon thrownets, in fact anything that has a large surface area. i think someone once mentioned hair-curlers.would be a good one, too. 
the only advantage to buying commercially available biomedia is that you may end up getting away with using a smaller filter, but i do not know if the extra cost will be justified.

----------


## tsicar

> ^ 'nuff said.
> 
> This is a great thread - mostly because it contained a lot of information both in what to do, how to do it, and what to avoid.
> 
> I have a friend (Thai, of course), who wants to farm fish -- who stupidly went ahead, got a loan from the bank on her farmland, and on the advice of the local fish farm store (yeah, you know where this is going), had four ponds dug out that she spent all the money on, and now has no money left to buy fish. Sounds classic, doesn't it? Budgeting or pre-planning being unheard of to Thai 'business' people.
> 
> She claims the local store will teach and show her all that needs to be done -- obviously, based on the advice so far, I am less than convinced.
> 
> Obviously, she asked me for an additional 30,000 Baht (translation: 120,000 Baht) to 'buy fish'. Fortunately, I 'have no money'.
> ...


best option for her is to do tilapia on greenwater system. 
even if she DID get the money together to buy the fingerlings, she would still need more to feed them .
greenwater system equals almost free feed. there is plenty info available on internet regarding this method.

----------


## mellow

> Originally Posted by BillyBobThai
> 
> 
> My question is, what to use for my media in the bio-filter?
> Thanks
> 
> 
> What about bottle tops? They're food safe, have plenty of surface area, light and a recycling yard should sell them for FA.
> 
> Shade cloth may contain fire retardants, plastics in general can have some real nasties so you should be careful. I think this is worth discussing.


 Bottle caps can be used, and I think Dalton had told me that he had used them at one time. They would have to be enclosed in something, netting, large PVC pipes, baskets. I tried to use some in the experimental biofilters, whose picture I posted, but I found that they tend to want to float away quickly whenever an opportunity arises. I think they are best suited to be used as filtering material in the mechanical filters. Or at least that is what I am going to try to do with them, since I already have a bunch.
 Shade cloth could have nasties in it, I don't know, but seemed to have worked for us. I also believe that the surface area of shade cloth is much greater, I have a list of these medias in this PC someplace where it states that. We loosely  rolled up  sections of the shadecloth , and staked these into plastic crates, ends up, allowing air spaces between the crates and around them. Each roll was 10M long by about 30 centimetre high. Each basket had about10 to 12 rolls in it. Thats a lot of surface area. Here is a picture of this:



 The top crate had, half inch PVC pipe cut 1 inch long, with holes drilled around it's side. This was done so that the water comming off the pumps would be better distributed, to bounce the water around to get it to hold more air. Here is a picture of this:



 And here is one of the biofilters being set up:




 Guess I should of rotated that. At least I'm getting the pictures on here now. Much easier following KM's Picture Posting Tutorial , with Pictures. Thanks KM.

----------


## DaffyDuck

> best option for her is to do tilapia on greenwater system.


Yes, she mentioned being talked into Tilapia.

Though in the same breath she mentioned wanting to raise Tiger Shrimp.




> even if she DID get the money together to buy the fingerlings, she would still need more to feed them


Yeah, already hit upon that point - I asked her how much money should would need on an ongoing basis, i.e. weekly, monthly, and yearly for feed?

"Don't need"

No, for the fingerlings and to raise baby fish to larger!!

"Huh? Don't need."




> greenwater system equals almost free feed. there is plenty info available on internet regarding this method.


Thanks for the pointer - I'll look up Greenwater Systems.

Aquaponics Journal

By the way, says that Thailand had banned inland shrimp farming since 1999 - does that still hold?

----------


## Smithson

The bottle tops could be bought from the recyclers, either those that collect the rubbish or the from the big centers where they have mountains of bottles.

For the filters, rather than having water run through them, wouldn't a loop syphon that fills and then drains provide a larger surface area? Because it fills the whole containers rather than just running thru?

The black plastic bath shown below may also contain nasties, doubt it is food safe. It may be from recylced plastic.


I bought some Plah Nin and Tuptim that are supposed to be same sex from a well known place in Prachinburi. Now I have 100's of fingerlings, not sure what happened.

----------


## mellow

^ First you have to have green water and with a bunch of Tilapia, it wont be green for long.

----------


## mellow

> The bottle tops could be bought from the recyclers, either those that collect the rubbish or the from the big centers where they have mountains of bottles.
> 
> For the filters, rather than having water run through them, wouldn't a loop syphon that fills and then drains provide a larger surface area? Because it fills the whole containers rather than just running thru?
> 
> The black plastic bath shown below may also contain nasties, doubt it is food safe. It may be from recylced plastic.
> 
> 
> I bought some Plah Nin and Tuptim that are supposed to be same sex from a well known place in Prachinburi. Now I have 100's of fingerlings, not sure what happened.



  You are correct that the plastic may contain nasties, but I don't know. I don't worry about it, especially since this was an experiment, and it worked. It taught me many things. The set ups being built are entirely constructed of cement and steel where things are so much harder to change than these various plastic basins, whose systems went through various physical changes. What I learned from these 2 systems, we incorporated into the farm my wife is building. I also learned a lot by reading, and by visiting Dalton's Farm. But I have been reading about it for a dozen years.  Here's a link to Biological filters.
BIOLOGICAL FILTERS FOR AQUACULTURE

----------


## Smithson

^ Didn't mean to accuse you of poisoning ppl, just thought it was worth a mention for others.

Would also be interested in your opinion of loop siphons and systems that fill and drain, the discussion on AP forums is that they provide better filtration because the of great contact with the media.

LOOP SIPHON

----------


## BillyBobThai

Thanks to all for your inputs thus far.  Just what I was looking for.  The bio-filter seems to be one of the most important parts of a sucesfull aqua culture project.

Thanks mellow, for the link on filters.

TSICAR when I have come up with what my system will look like, I would like to 
email you some drawings for you thoughts.

Thanks to all

BillyBobThai

----------


## mellow

^  I'm not familiar with loop siphons. The water needs to move at a pretty good clip in an RAS. The water in the system needs to go though the filters ( recirculated) every couple of hours or so, a topic of much discussion. That loop may be quite a slowing factor. I did see a loop siphon on a link one time, where they used it to get a better constant flow however. Much larger pipe or hose used in that  loop and used for a different purpose. Contact time is also a debate, many say the bacteria do the job upon contact. There are some who believe that by recirculating some of the water back into the biofilter it multiplies the effect of the process. If the filter is packed with media and is flouded, air has to be pumped in and the media aggitated, or else you just have a basic filter chamber with filtering material in it. A lot will depend on the stocking rate, having a few fish, enought for the plants to grow and to also use as dinner, as compared to raising fish for sale.I suppose one has to decide upon a balance of what works best for you, and the system your making. Is that an embossed radiation stamp on that blue barrel?

----------


## mellow

> Thanks to all for your inputs thus far.  Just what I was looking for.  The bio-filter seems to be one of the most important parts of a sucesfull aqua culture project.
> 
> Thanks mellow, for the link on filters.
> 
> TSICAR when I have come up with what my system will look like, I would like to 
> email you some drawings for you thoughts.
> 
> Thanks to all
> 
> BillyBobThai


 An overview on sizing a biofilter:
BIOLOGICAL FILTERS FOR AQUACULTURE

----------


## tsicar

> ^ Didn't mean to accuse you of poisoning ppl, just thought it was worth a mention for others.
> 
> Would also be interested in your opinion of loop siphons and systems that fill and drain, the discussion on AP forums is that they provide better filtration because the of great contact with the media.
> 
> LOOP SIPHON


interesting system. where is the media though.
i assume that the media is alternately in contact with air and then with the water, as in a R.B.C?
has anybody looked up "rotating biological contactors"?
media is rotated very slowly so that the bacteria is in contact with air for half the cycle, then in contact with the water for the other half cycle. i only saw commercial designs and products available over the internet, very expensive, and using a system of removable discs as media. but i am sure that if you find some old roadsweeper brushes, they could be rotated by paddlewheel from your input water(free energy.)
huge surface area from these, and the bacteria get plenty of oxygen, plus they can be attatched to floats and anaerobic processes happening beneath them in the same tank, without clogging the brushes with solids.

----------


## Smithson

^ Thanks for that, from what you've written doesn't seem like they would have much place in aquaculture.

BTW, that's not my system, just a pic of the internet. Dunno about the radiation logo, but I doubt the hose is food safe.

----------


## tsicar

> ^ Thanks for that, from what you've written doesn't seem like they would have much place in aquaculture.
> 
> BTW, that's not my system, just a pic of the internet. Dunno about the radiation logo, but I doubt the hose is food safe.


why not? it seems like the most energy efficient system there is.
i will try find a link somewhere, but i seem to remember they were being used in aquaculture, even being used (ilthough i personally would not recommend), inside the rearing tanks!! seems like a really good way to get the most oxygen to the bacteria at the lowest cost.

here's something i just found that explains the process a bit.
i know it is not a commonly used system in aquaculture, mostly being used in large sewage treatment plants, but it IS a biofilter, and if it can treat sewage, it should be able to be used in aquaculture.

*Rotating Biological Contactor (RBC) Process*



*As an efficient fixed film wastewater treatment technology, Rotating Biological Contactors are well suited for secondary and/or advanced treatment in municipal or industrial applications. The long-term reliability of this process is evident in the more than 6,000 units operating today.*







The RBC process consists of a large disc with radial and concentric passages slowly rotating in a concrete tank. During the rotation, about 40 percent of the media surface area is in the wastewater. The rotation and subsequent exposure to oxygen allows organisms to multiply and form a thin layer of biomass. This large, active population causes the biological degradation of organic pollutants. Excess biomass shears off at a steady rate and is then carried through the RBC system for removal in a clarifier.
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the concept and design of this system intrigues me, and i definitely want to try out a modified version that is stuck somewhere in my head, if not as the entire system, then as an additional component to a more conventional setup. the theory seems sound, and "they" have got them working, so they may be worth a bit of experimentation.
 i used large nylon brushes (albeit non-rotating) as part of a koipond filter i built once, and was impressed with the way they performed, hence the idea of a couple of rotating roadsweeper brushes coupled together and powered by the outflow, or inflow pressure to the rearing tanks.

----------


## tsicar

> Thanks to all for your inputs thus far. Just what I was looking for. The bio-filter seems to be one of the most important parts of a sucesfull aqua culture project.
> 
> Thanks mellow, for the link on filters.
> 
> TSICAR when I have come up with what my system will look like, I would like to 
> email you some drawings for you thoughts.
> 
> Thanks to all
> 
> BillyBobThai


will gladly help if i can, BUT
i am no expert on biofiltration.
 everybody will have their own favourite design or system., and what might work for one guy, may not work for another. best you can do is to glean as much information as you can, study the principles and chemistry, and try figure out what will work for you.
mellow uses trickle towers successfully. i prefer multiple chamber systems. neither of us is wrong. his system works for him and my system worked for me.
best is to start off small, as you said you were going to do,
with one tank, then experiment and monitor, learn and extend, push the envelope until you know what you have is working and what the limitations are, then share the information with the rest of us.
in this way we can all learn and pick up tips, and improve.
nobody is just going to copy someone's design, stock up to the max. and become successfull overnight. whatever you do will be a learning curve, some heartbreak, plenty of frustration, and, hopefully, finally, success. 
don't give up!

----------


## DaffyDuck

Any point in keeping ponds covered by some kind of translucent tarps - mainly to keep birdshit out of the water, to protect against some of the disease factors and carriers?

----------


## tsicar

> Any point in keeping ponds covered by some kind of translucent tarps - mainly to keep birdshit out of the water, to protect against some of the disease factors and carriers?


no, the birdshit will do no harm, just adds some fertilizer for algal growth.
disease only seems to become a factor in systems where the fish are stressed by poor water quality and/or overstocking.
almost ALL fish die-offs can be ascribed to poor water quality, or depleted oxygen levels. disease is hardly ever a factor, and when it is, the cause comes back to water quality issues in most cases.

----------


## mellow

> Any point in keeping ponds covered by some kind of translucent tarps - mainly to keep birdshit out of the water, to protect against some of the disease factors and carriers?


 Here is a place where you can read about ponds:
Pond Construction and Filtration - Koiphen.com

 The principles in Aquaculture remain the same. It's up to you how you apply them.

 The bird shit is actually beneficial to your pond.

----------


## tsicar

> Originally Posted by DaffyDuck
> 
> 
> Any point in keeping ponds covered by some kind of translucent tarps - mainly to keep birdshit out of the water, to protect against some of the disease factors and carriers?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The principles in Aquaculture remain the same. It's up to you how you apply them.
> ...


exactly.
and you can ignore the known science at your peril.

----------


## Smithson

> Originally Posted by Smithson
> 
> 
> ^ Thanks for that, from what you've written doesn't seem like they would have much place in aquaculture.
> 
> BTW, that's not my system, just a pic of the internet. Dunno about the radiation logo, but I doubt the hose is food safe.
> 
> 
> why not? it seems like the most energy efficient system there is.


They are very tricky to configure, sometimes they don't kick in, sometimes they don't stop running. The idea for AP is that the flood and drain cycles suck air into the grow beds supplying oxygen to the roots. 

Mellow, your planning on using concrete, have you considered a pond liner? There are some good ones made in Thailand, but they are generally exported, so finding the suppliers is difficult.

----------


## Smithson

> 


interesting system. where is the media though.
i assume that the media is alternately in contact with air and then with the water[/quote]

The media hasn't been added, this system looks to be in the test stage. You're correct, it is in contact with both air and water. The barrel fills, then the siphon kicks in and it drains.Media used is either gravel (heavy) or expanded clay (expensive). 

Here's another pic:

----------


## mellow

^ Lava rock is suppose to work well, and its not heavy.
 Tanks are a lot easier to work as compared to a pond.

----------


## tsicar

> Originally Posted by tsicar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> interesting system. where is the media though.
> i assume that the media is alternately in contact with air and then with the water


The media hasn't been added, this system looks to be in the test stage. You're correct, it is in contact with both air and water. The barrel fills, then the siphon kicks in and it drains.Media used is either gravel (heavy) or expanded clay (expensive). 

Here's another pic:
[/quote]

ok, now i see it. only saw the empty tank before. the coarse growing medium is the biomedia, with the added benefit that the plant roots chomp the nasty ammonias and phosphates.

looks good.

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## Smithson

> Tanks are a lot easier to work as compared to a pond.


I'm guessing you mean concrete tanks made from rings? There are some nice plastic tanks around, but not cheap. They have plug holes in the center and would be perfect for the whirlpool effect to remove solids.

----------


## BillyBobThai

Tsicar, you mentioned in an earlier post about wanting to use some sort of a road sweeping brush mounted on a powered circular filter.  My thought is to have a paddlewheel with the paddles closely spaced and covered with astro turf type carpet.  Instead of using water to power the wheel, use a small DC servomotor drawing only a couple of watts.

On another note,  the pumps that the locals use to flood their fields are these long pipes with and enclosed prop at one end and their iron buffalo hooked to the other.  These pumps do not put out any pressure to speak of,  and will not push water to up to a great head,  but they put out huge volumes of water.  Does anybody make a smaller version of this pump?  It shouldn't take a lot of power to run something like this.

----------


## tsicar

> Originally Posted by mellow
> 
> 
> Tanks are a lot easier to work as compared to a pond.
> 
> 
> I'm guessing you mean concrete tanks made from rings? There are some nice plastic tanks around, but not cheap. They have plug holes in the center and would be perfect for the whirlpool effect to remove solids.


or the blue 44gallon drums pictured in your "syphon" system. farang price in isaan used to be about 400baht each.
on the same note, i saw those insulated plastic "refrigerators" that they use in thailand. you get one for free if you buy the ice from the same ice factory to keep it working. the big ones are perfect for catfish tanks, if modified a bit. i am sure that a couple could be convinced to "fall off the back of a truck" to supply the cause......

----------


## tsicar

> Tsicar, you mentioned in an earlier post about wanting to use some sort of a road sweeping brush mounted on a powered circular filter. My thought is to have a paddlewheel with the paddles closely spaced and covered with astro turf type carpet. Instead of using water to power the wheel, use a small DC servomotor drawing only a couple of watts.
> 
> On another note, the pumps that the locals use to flood their fields are these long pipes with and enclosed prop at one end and their iron buffalo hooked to the other. These pumps do not put out any pressure to speak of, and will not push water to up to a great head, but they put out huge volumes of water. Does anybody make a smaller version of this pump? It shouldn't take a lot of power to run something like this.


ok, you would be creating a type of rbc, and it would work, but nobody knows how well, or whether the astro turf would last, or rot, or fall off, or clog, so experimentation is necessary. your mention of the dc motor, though is a good one.
there are small 12 volt dc pumps available, plus a large  rbc could easily be driven off a small geared down dc motor.
if you ran it all off a couple of truck batteries connected in parallel, and charged them permanently from a 12 volt transformer coupled to a bridge rectifier (all really cheap shit and does not need a genius to connect up), you could buy yourself a few hours of drinking time during the frequent power cuts in isaan that would normally have you scampering for the generator to save your fish.
alternately you could use an invertor and a solar panel to charge a few batteries to take care of this problem if using 220 volt ac., or at least supplement some of the power requirement.
 once again it is easy to calculate what you will need coz the invertor has a power rating, the batteries have an amp-hour rating and you can calculate and tailor it all to what your requirements are.since all waterpumps have a pumping capacity and head height rating, it is easy to calculate what size pumps you will need. the newer type submersible pumps for koiponds are extremely energy efficient, although probably would not supply the head you would need for a trickle tower.
the thai dirty-water pumps (those long tubes with the kubota thing would draw too much power. as i remember the kubota is around 8-10kw and you would never need as much power as that for pumps to power a few tanks.
calculate how much you need to pump per hour to attain a water exchange rate of  once per hour per tank, and buy a pump with a rating of slightly higher than that. remember to figure in the head rating especially if you need to pump up to a tall trickle tower.

----------


## Smithson

> Originally Posted by Smithson
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by mellow
> ...


Price for the 200lt plastic drums is around B450 in Bangkok, could probably get it a bit cheaper if you bought lots.

These are the cheapest way in terms of volume, but the problem is they are still quite small, which means lots of plumbing and fiddling around. Unlike the 120 lt ones, it's difficult to know what they've contained, often it's shampoo etc., but even then the labels still contain warnings.

The concrete rings are much cheaper, everything included they are less than 1B per liter.

----------


## mellow

Prefab concrete rings are good and and cheap. 1.20 meter ring ( concrete pipe) by 40 cm high, I paid 350Baht for. Stack 3 of them and you got a 1000 liters of water to work with per tank.

----------


## Smithson

Can someone suggest a half decent pump?

Below is a pic of a pond roughly the size of mine, to give you an idea. The pump will go to concrete tanks that work as a bio-filter and waterfall. I plan to put it on a timer for 15mins every hour.

I don't want an expensive pump because it'll attract thieves, I'd also use it for watering trees. 

Does anyone know of something half decent for less than 4K?

----------


## tsicar

> Can someone suggest a half decent pump?
> 
> Below is a pic of a pond roughly the size of mine, to give you an idea. The pump will go to concrete tanks that work as a bio-filter and waterfall. I plan to put it on a timer for 15mins every hour.
> 
> I don't want an expensive pump because it'll attract thieves, I'd also use it for watering trees. 
> 
> Does anyone know of something half decent for less than 4K?


try a submersible. they would have to dive for it if they want to steal it.
plenty around cheaper than 4k for the size you need.

bloody nice pond, btw.

----------


## mellow

Nice pond. Here is a link to the type of pump I'm planning on getting when I'm ready for them. You might have to build a tiny shed out of blocks, as my neighbor did for his pump. He bought one of these pumps and they work very well.
à¸à¸³à¹à¸à¹à¸²/à¸à¸±à¸§à¹à¸à¸à¸à¸³à¸«à¸à¹à¸²à¸¢ à¸à¸±à¹à¸¡à¸à¹à¸³à¸«à¸[at]à¸¢à¹à¸à¹à¸ à¸à¸à¸´à¸à¸à¹à¸³à¸¡à¸²à¸ (MITSUBISHI PUMP) Model : WCL-Series

 Your pond is small, and a small one of these, would be in that price range.

----------


## Smithson

The pond is absolutely beautiful, but it's not mine. I didn't have a picture, so I just found similar sizes one from the link mellow provided.

I had two submersibles, one I bought for B750 from Lotus, it was a Chinese no-name, the following week the price had gone up to B1,400. Worked well for quite a while.

The I got a Mistubishi for around 2K, after a week or two it stopped working, played with it and cleaned it a little, then it was OK. It's still working, but there's a tingling sensation in the water when it's on, so I'm not using it anymore.

So now I'm not keen on Mitsubishi and not keen on submersibles, besides the dangers of electricity and water, submersibles can be easily stolen by pulling on the lead or hose. An above ground one can be bolted and locked.

Talking to both Thai and farang, everyone says Italian are the best, Japanese are OK, but beware of Chinese and Thai made pumps. The Mitsu was made in Thailand and had no guarantee, none of the cheap pumps come with any gaurantee.

----------


## BillyBobThai

I am looking for some young, fresh water prawns in the Phichit area.  I was told by a worker at the fish hatchery in Phichit that I could find some in Petchabun.  
Could any one living in the Petchabun area shed any light on this?

Thanks to all

----------


## Smithson

I've arranged to buy bottle tops off the recyclers. They want 10B a kg, which will work out to quite a bit. They claim this is what the receive at the recycle centers.

Anyone know the price of those round, studded blue things used in bio-filters?

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## tjyflhol

Don't know the price, but I imagine they will be more expensive that bottle top lids. 10 baht a kilo isn't so bad is it?




> The pump will go to concrete tanks that work as a bio-filter and waterfall. I plan to put it on a timer for 15mins every hour.


Your pond will keep cleaner if you leave it running constantly, and if it's well stocked it may be a necessity.

----------


## tsicar

> Don't know the price, but I imagine they will be more expensive that bottle top lids. 10 baht a kilo isn't so bad is it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				The pump will go to concrete tanks that work as a bio-filter and waterfall. I plan to put it on a timer for 15mins every hour.
> 			
> ...


agreed. if cost of electricity is part of the equation, rather downsize the pump and let it run continuously, or pump to a reservour (or raised biofilter)at a higher level, set a float switch around halfway down, and feed your waterfall by gravity.. your pump will switch off and on automatically, but you will maintain a continuous flow.

----------


## Smithson

> Don't know the price, but I imagine they will be more expensive that bottle top lids. 10 baht a kilo isn't so bad is it?


By the time I fill the whole biofilter, it'll be several thousand Baht. Not a heap of cash, but I try to avoid being routinely overcharged. I buy other things from these ppl, which is part of the issue also. There are places with mountains of plastic bottles, I will check there and let everyone know.




> The pump will go to concrete tanks that work as a bio-filter and waterfall. I plan to put it on a timer for 15mins every hour.


Your pond will keep cleaner if you leave it running constantly, and if it's well stocked it may be a necessity.[/quote]

Yes, I know. The thing is the whole pond concept is a comprise, partly aesthic and partly to provide food. The thing about having a powerful pump is that you get a good flow from the waterfall, making is pleasant when where there on the weekends.

Regarding electricity, when I had two submersibles running 15min and hr, the bill was about 20B a month! This includes all the electricity we use in the house on weekends. Not sure what was going on, I heard something about govt. subsidizes utility bills.

----------


## tjyflhol

Well 1000 baht is going to be 100 kgs of plastic tops/biolfilter medium.  That to me sounds like a lot of plastic (maybe it isn't?), how big is your biofilter?

There has been govt. subsidies on electric, but I think that scheme has stopped everywhere now.

----------


## mellow

> Don't know the price, but I imagine they will be more expensive that bottle top lids. 10 baht a kilo isn't so bad is it?
> 			
> 		
> 
> By the time I fill the whole biofilter, it'll be several thousand Baht. Not a heap of cash, but I try to avoid being routinely overcharged. I buy other things from these ppl, which is part of the issue also. There are places with mountains of plastic bottles, I will check there and let everyone know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I know. The thing is the whole pond concept is a comprise, partly aesthic and partly to provide food. The thing about having a powerful pump is that you get a good flow from the waterfall, making is pleasant when where there on the weekends.

Regarding electricity, when I had two submersibles running 15min and hr, the bill was about 20B a month! This includes all the electricity we use in the house on weekends. Not sure what was going on, I heard something about govt. subsidizes utility bills.[/quote]

 The bacteria in the bio filter will die if it doesnt get water which contain the nutrients which they need. what kind of bio filter are you using? show us a oicture.

----------


## Smithson

> The bacteria in the bio filter will die if it doesnt get water which contain the nutrients which they need. what kind of bio filter are you using? show us a oicture.


I don't have a pic, but it's two concrete rings filled with gravel, the pump fills them and overflows to the waterfall.

If the filter is being filled 15mins every hr, the bacteria should be fine, shouldn't they? Even after several hrs, the gravel stays moist, so the bacteria should live.

----------


## mellow

^ I doubt it.

----------


## tjyflhol

I think it might work if the filter is set up so that the media stays wet, but it's definitely going to take a lot of efficiency away from the biological filter since the bacteria will not be thriving as it should do. 

It's a risk, and one I wouldn't take if I had a lot of stock in the pond.

Best advice is to leave it running 24 hrs a day, realistically it will not cost that much.

----------


## mellow

Beneficial bacteria will start to die after about 15 min., if they don't get water with the nutrients that they need.

----------


## tjyflhol

I believe it's longer than that, a good few hours at least.  It depends on how much oxygenated water they have.

Whether his 15 min/hour method is suitable for his pond really depends on how many fish he puts in it, and how large his bio-filter will be.  It may be efficient enough.

Even if he does choose this method, I would definitely recommend that it's run 24/7 for the first month to get a healthy stock of bacteria in there to start with.

Again though, 24/7 and 365 days a year is advisable, as no doubt his pond will be quite well stocked.

----------


## Smithson

I think the 15 min per hr is fine, this is one of the flood/drain methods used in AP, where the nitrogen cycle is very important.

The pond isn't that well stocked.

----------


## tjyflhol

Forgive me for sounding dumb but what's AP?

You'll probably be fine too if there's not too much stock in there. You can run a fish pond with no filter at all as long as the balance is right, though with a much lower stocking level than your average garden pond.

I still think running it 24/7 to get it started up is a good idea though.  Maybe not necessary but it can't hurt either.

----------


## mellow

^ Its an Aquaponics forum, he posted the link either on this page or the last. By the way who sells these kind of supplies here in Thailand, Aquaponic supplies that is.

----------


## tjyflhol

Thanks Mellow, I have heard the system mentioned before, didn't know it was called Aquaponics, interesting subject I'll have to read into it more.

On a slightly different note, anyone on this forum raising fish for the international pet trade?

I know there was a member that raised Discus but he doesn't post here very much.

----------


## tjyflhol

Have a gander at this Mellow, hydroponics suppliers actually (come up on aquaponics search) but perhaps giving these people a ring could send you in the right direction.

THAILAND - Yellow Pages

----------


## mellow

> Have a gander at this Mellow, hydroponics suppliers actually (come up on aquaponics search) but perhaps giving these people a ring could send you in the right direction.
> 
> THAILAND - Yellow Pages


 Thanks for the link. I also remember someone doing Discus. At one time there where quite a few people joining in on Fish Farming discussions, here and over on TV.
For some reason that has stopped. I'm not doing Aquaponics myself, I have a friend who wants to hobby around with it, and I looked up a bunch of sites for him.
 My wife is doing Tilapia, and she may want to do some Thai catfish, well see how it goes.

----------


## Smithson

> ^ Its an Aquaponics forum, he posted the link either on this page or the last. By the way who sells these kind of supplies here in Thailand, Aquaponic supplies that is.


Basically you just build the system yourself, using regular tanks, pumps etc.  that you'd use for aquaculture. A lot of ppl use the blue barrels. It's not that difficult, but takes a bit of time. Would make a nice hobby, don't know about commercial though. If you go through the forum, there are some pretty resourceful ppl there.

----------


## tsicar

> Originally Posted by mellow
> 
> 
> ^ Its an Aquaponics forum, he posted the link either on this page or the last. By the way who sells these kind of supplies here in Thailand, Aquaponic supplies that is.
> 
> 
> Basically you just build the system yourself, using regular tanks, pumps etc. that you'd use for aquaculture. A lot of ppl use the blue barrels. It's not that difficult, but takes a bit of time. Would make a nice hobby, don't know about commercial though. If you go through the forum, there are some pretty resourceful ppl there.


i don't know how viable the veggie part would be as a commercial venture, think smithson was right when he said one should concentrate on one or the other as the main part of the system,i but i definitely think that as part of the biofiltration system of a commercial aquaculture system, it makes a lot of sense.
perhaps just use the veggies as a spin-off bonus type thing, even if just for own consumption, or at least to offset the cost of the feed or electricity bill.

----------


## tsicar

> Originally Posted by tjyflhol
> 
> 
> Have a gander at this Mellow, hydroponics suppliers actually (come up on aquaponics search) but perhaps giving these people a ring could send you in the right direction.
> 
> THAILAND - Yellow Pages
> 
> 
> Thanks for the link. I also remember someone doing Discus. At one time there where quite a few people joining in on Fish Farming discussions, here and over on TV.
> For some reason that has stopped. .


farming ornamental fish for export, or even just buying them locally and exporting at a profit is a good idea.
here in south africa, those gouramis the thais turn into pla-ra sell for around 160 baht each. if you can crack the market and get the logistics right, i think there is great potential.
i also read the discus thing (think he called himself "discusfarmer"), but he was not giving away too much info, so he probably had a bloody good little business going, and wanted to protect it.
work out feed costs, then price realised per kg, and it makes an whole lot more sense than screwing around farming catfish or tilapia for the peasants!

----------


## tjyflhol

Discusfarm was his name I think.




> farming ornamental fish for export, or even just buying them locally and exporting at a profit is a good idea.


Agreed, both could be profitable, but farming and exporting is the obvious way to go especially if dealing with rarer species and those that are found outside of Thailand.




> here in south africa, those gouramis the thais turn into pla-ra sell for around 160 baht each. if you can crack the market and get the logistics right, i think there is great potential.


I can only speak from the UK point of view really, but the common kind of gouramis sell for about that and cheaper.  And being one of the more aquarium fish they are cheap from the wholesalers in quantity, might only cost them 15-20 baht a fish direct from a supplier in S.E.Asia and a little bit more if shipped from Europe.

But if you follow the market, the new trend in aquariums and aquarium fish is nano tanks, small cubes averaging around 8-10" square and they stock small fish, and shrimps.

A lot of the fish they stock are small burmese species such as the Galaxy Rasbora.  These were expensive when hey come on the market, and the wild stock soon depleted, but quite quickly there were calls for only captive bred stock to be bought.  Fish like this are brought into the market on almost a monthly basis in Burma and Indonesia and the neighbouring regions.  the Galaxy rabora is reletively cheap now though as they breed quite easily.



Another new one that has hit the market in the last couple of years is Sulawesi shrimps from Indonesia.  Quite difficult to breed in aquarium conditions, so I guess if you could get a small farm of them going they could hold their value longer.  The Galaxy Rasboras price would drop much quicker.



This is a type of snakehead (pla-chon), I think from India.  They was selling for about 120 pounds retail on the web a few months ago. 2-3 inch snakehheads selling for 8000 baht retail.  What you need to do is grab some from the source, farm them in Thailand, and get them shipped out before their price drops too quickly.



So many other exmaples as well but i will not bore you now.

Thailand has already got a huge exporting market for ornamental fish and you'll be undercut as a supplier of common species, but there is a niche market that has not been fully exploited yet.

This is the kind of exporting I mean, a website for a small country that deals in mainly wild caught fish from indonesia.

1st Leopard Aquatic - Indonesia Wild Caught Fish

----------


## The Gentleman Scamp

I like fishes.

----------


## tjyflhol

Run along now Scampy, you know you're not supposed to be in this part of the forum.

----------


## Smithson

> This is a type of snakehead (pla-chon), I think from India.  They was selling for about 120 pounds retail on the web a few months ago. 2-3 inch snakehheads selling for 8000 baht retail.  What you need to do is grab some from the source, farm them in Thailand, and get them shipped out before their price drops too quickly.


Snakeheads can be invasive, so there maybe heaps of regulations required for their import. Maybe not invasive in the UK, but could forsee a heap of other problems, if it's something you already know a lot about maybe it's a possibility.

----------


## mellow

My wife is only doing a local thing, she only wants to sell good quality fish around here. No worldwide export etc..
 To do Aquaponics on a large scale, one would need a lot of land, and it would be more labor intensive. Don't they also use artificial light to increase daylight hours on the veggies? So they grow faster etc..?

----------


## Smithson

> My wife is only doing a local thing, she only wants to sell good quality fish around here. No worldwide export etc..
>  To do Aquaponics on a large scale, one would need a lot of land, and it would be more labor intensive. Don't they also use artificial light to increase daylight hours on the veggies? So they grow faster etc..?


AP doesn't need much land at all, although it would require more labor. There's no need for lights. You also have to use test kits and sometimes additives like chelated iron. Many ppl, especially Thais, would struggle with these things.

I think the big advantage it has over regular aquaculture is you don't waste water, but there's heaps of water in Thailand. Veggie growth is fast for leafy varieties, but it wouldn't be enough to justify the extra expense over soil growing.

----------


## mellow

^  I agree with you Smithson, but it would be a good hobby for someone, plus it could provide a lot of good food. Good for a large family. It could be easily constructed with those red bricks, cement, and PVC, and it would be easy to add on too gradually.

----------


## Smithson

Yes, definitely a good hobby, nice fresh organic food and fish. I priced it and for about 10k+ you could get a nice system going using round plastic tanks. Eventually you'd get your money back.

Due to water restrictions in Australia, a lot of retired and semi-retired ppl are doing it. It's suprising how resourceful ppl can be, especially in rural areas. Thailand is well suited 'cause it's tropical and has a well established aquaculture industry.

----------


## muu uan

We have bought automatic feeding systems and gages from this norvegian company.
we have farms in sea.

AKVA group - UNI Recirculation System

They also suply recirculation systems worldwide and help with start up and financing
I think all they products are good but most expensive.
They service, support and spareparts delivery works too slow sometimes.

----------


## mellow

> We have bought automatic feeding systems and gages from this norvegian company.
> we have farms in sea.
> 
> AKVA group - UNI Recirculation System
> 
> They also suply recirculation systems worldwide and help with start up and financing
> I think all they products are good but most expensive.
> They service, support and spareparts delivery works too slow sometimes.


 Looks very expensive. I suppose in Norway fish are more expansive then here. As well as labor. How much did the auto feeder cost? Labor here is anywhere from 150B to 250B/day.

----------


## muu uan

Autofeeder costs from 70k-150k€ mounted. 
Hole system should cost 400-1500k€ depend of size of farm/production
can buy only the filtters or just the parts what needed.
anyway its going to take time before money from investment returns.

----------


## Smithson

If you selling to Thais, the price needs to be cheap. I think most Tilapia are grown in dug out ponds without any additional feed - just the green water system.

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## DaffyDuck

^ Which is fine, I guess, until you need to harvest the first wave of fish, which is then labor intensive because netting fish from a huge pond requires a lot of hands, and then having to pump the pond to clean it is even more cost intensive.

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## mellow

> Autofeeder costs from 70k-150k mounted. 
> Hole system should cost 400-1500k depend of size of farm/production
> can buy only the filtters or just the parts what needed.
> anyway its going to take time before money from investment returns.


 How does that translate into Baht?

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## mellow

> ^ Which is fine, I guess, until you need to harvest the first wave of fish, which is then labor intensive because netting fish from a huge pond requires a lot of hands, and then having to pump the pond to clean it is even more cost intensive.


 Agreed. Also if the labor pool is like around here, they might not even show up for work that day, to do any of that. You would have a drained pond, and you would be the only one there.

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## muu uan

> Originally Posted by muu uan
> 
> 
> Autofeeder costs from 70k-150k€ mounted. 
> Hole system should cost 400-1500k€ depend of size of farm/production
> can buy only the filtters or just the parts what needed.
> anyway its going to take time before money from investment returns.
> 
> 
> How does that translate into Baht?


 
Auto feeder around 3.000.000-6.000.000baht
unifarm system ready build 19.000.000-72.000.000baht

Akva smart systems are sure most expensive systems in markets
.

Buying all the parts/filters from free markets, do building yourself and
feed fish by hand (thats the best way to do it) should cut costs at least
50%

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## Smithson

> Originally Posted by DaffyDuck
> 
> 
> ^ Which is fine, I guess, until you need to harvest the first wave of fish, which is then labor intensive because netting fish from a huge pond requires a lot of hands, and then having to pump the pond to clean it is even more cost intensive.
> 
> 
>  Agreed. Also if the labor pool is like around here, they might not even show up for work that day, to do any of that. You would have a drained pond, and you would be the only one there.


Agreed, but on the other hand, I'm sure the system in the links works well in the hands of skill workers. See all the ppl with plans, meters and other measuring devices, I don't think any of them are called Somchai.

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## mellow

> Originally Posted by mellow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by muu uan
> ...


  After reading the costs quoted, I feel much better about the amount of money, its costing my wife to set up her RAS. I suppose I can stop crying now. With the lowest cost  auto feeder 3 mil. , she can hire a worker to give food to the fish etc., for 40 years.

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## muu uan

> With the lowest cost auto feeder 3 mil. , she can hire a worker to give food to the fish etc., for 40 years.


That is the best and most effective way to feed by hand, you have
best control at fish eat all the food, "wasted food is wasted money".

In norway with that money can hire one worker for not even one year and
here in sweden maybe jus bit over one year, maybe that is why they sell most in western countries.

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## mellow

^ I'm sure they are excellent systems. The technology involved with these systems and the operating costs would probably kill any profit if there ever is any. Running a couple of pumps, an air device, buying feed is already costly. I doubt many single family farms are snatching them up.

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## tsicar

> ^ I'm sure they are excellent systems. The technology involved with these systems and the operating costs would probably kill any profit if there ever is any. Running a couple of pumps, an air device, buying feed is already costly. I doubt many single family farms are snatching them up.


the technology is easily copied and cheap to build by anybody with basic mechanical skills and a bit of ingenuity. 
the important thing is to study and understand the technology, and find a cheaper way to do it. (as you suggested: hand feed instead of automatic feed)
if your market is big enough, and the selling price is high enough, it justifies spending the money, and a ready made, proven, megabuck system would save in the long run, the time normally spent on the "learning curve" phase.
otherwise, a bit of improvisation, and attention to basic business principles can get you an hell of a long way.

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## mellow

^ Yes, the technology can be copied with available improvised materials, and there are quite a few forums with Do it yourself sections, which show you that particular persons' construction. These examples help a lot. I myself have not found it to be cheap however. I suppose it's cheap, when comparing it to the 19 million price tag, shown for the least expansive system, constructed by the above company. 
 Achieving maximum stocking and grow out rates is a lot easier for a scientist with grant money, free manpower with degrees in fishery management, and all the bells and whistles, then more ordinary folks. Keeping it more mechanical, cleaning filter chambers and filtration media, 5-10% daily water changes, maybe a foam fractioner, and flushing out sediment at the bottom of tanks should give you about 60% of their stocking rates.
 Probably a big factor to look out for is to not get too greedy, by overstocking and killing everything off, fish and bio filter.

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## Smithson

One thing you will always have a problem with is finding or training skilled staff. Even if you get them, there's a very good chance they will leave at short notice. Clever Thais either work for themselves or move from one job to another as it suits them.

Even if you could do everything yourself, it's not legal. Feeding fish is OK, but electric timers, switches etc. is a bit complicated for farm laborers. If you left the place for a weekend away, you could come back to dead fish and no staff.

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## mellow

^ Quite right Smithson. We have lived here 8 yrs. and I can't even count the number of people who have worked  here for my wife. Many don't stay after they realize that there is actually work to be done, others have to be shown where the gate is. About 10% work well, but as you said, they find something else they want to do, or just go into retirement after working a few months.

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## Smithson

^ After 5 yrs we have quite a hard working team 90% female, but that is in Bkk and they are all supporting family back home. Also, we've given up trying to train them, all they want is simple repetitive work without responsibility or leadership.

Our experience outside Bkk has not been good. I'd be happy to pay someone responsible and hardworking double the going rate, problem is they just don't seem to be available.

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## mellow

^ Besides material and construction cost, that is a very good reason to keep things simple and easily done.

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## stutter

> Hi TD members.
> 
> I have started this thread in hope of that some of you might consider to try doing some fish-farming, it can be a nice hobby and doing the right things, it might also provide an little extra income. 
> So if you have any questions or ideas, then please post away 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dalts.


We have just started fish farming and yesterday we placed 3000 "Pla Nim" into our 2 Rai "pond". I will look through this thread and read on... Im now a fish farmer after all!
 :Smile:

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## Nawty

Anyone know where to buy Barramundi in the PakChong, Saraburi or Nakohon Nayok areas ??

The Nam Sai place everyone seems to recommend does not stock them anymore. We visited this place a few months ago and they had none, missus called a few days ago and was told they do not have it anymore.

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## cambtek

About to live on bassac river and i plan to erect net in the river to farm fish.I have three metre deep water for half the year,if i can find the correct fish should be a goer.
Barra perhaps.

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## melthorn

Working for an importer in th UK but retiring to Thailand in December have seriously thought about this.
Main problem is disease and finding a local vet with fish knowledge. Few and afr between in UK. Problem in Thailand is the warm water and parasites grow quickly in the warm.
Have also considered tropical fish farming. Tested water last trip and ideal for breeding many species.
More to follow when I get out there, :UK:

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## tsicar

> Working for an importer in th UK but retiring to Thailand in December have seriously thought about this.
> Main problem is disease and finding a local vet with fish knowledge. Few and afr between in UK. Problem in Thailand is the warm water and parasites grow quickly in the warm.
> Have also considered tropical fish farming. Tested water last trip and ideal for breeding many species.
> More to follow when I get out there,


what kind of fish are you importing, and are you importing from thailand?
disease should not be a problem:
i expect if live fish, that the problems are picked up during the stress of transport or the handling at that time.

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## mellow

Parasites and disease are also a concern of mine. Maybe tsicar  who raised catfish here can tell us about his experience in this. Dalton could likewise get in on this, he raised both, catfish and Tilapia, and I know he has encountered disease problems.
 Depending on the type of system will also restrict you to certain remedies, so as not to destroy the bacteria in your bio-filter for instance.

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## tsicar

> Parasites and disease are also a concern of mine. Maybe tsicar who raised catfish here can tell us about his experience in this. Dalton could likewise get in on this, he raised both, catfish and Tilapia, and I know he has encountered disease problems.
> Depending on the type of system will also restrict you to certain remedies, so as not to destroy the bacteria in your bio-filter for instance.


disease would not normally manifest itself in a good system, and poor water quality is mostly to blame as the stressor which makes the fish susceptable to disease.
almost everything you will encounter is reasonably easily treated by dosing with formalin, but you are correct: you don't want it getting to your biofilter.
best advice is to monitor your water quality carefully, avoid stress and correct the problem before it manifests itself in an outbreak of disease.
by the way, do not waste your mony on the locally available, popular and expensive thai "cure-all" (oxytetracycline based)
most of the problems you could encounter wil be fungal, and the oxy will not help. use formalin if you really have to.
salt can also help, especially in tilapia: helps restore the protective layer of slime which can be compromised during handling; cheap and good for use as a prophylactic, plus has benefits in combatting problems related to high nitrite levels, but do not use salt on catfish, as they do not tolerate high salinity levels well.

prevention is always better and cheaper than cure.

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## mellow

^ Read some articles about using salt. Here's one on Formalin:

VM77/VM061: Use of Formalin to Control Fish Parasites

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## smeden

h0w are u dalton  back in thailand?          ::chitown::  :Smile:  :sexy:

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## cambtek

Some good info here.I have a block on the bassac river near phnom penh where I could build a netted pond in the river to grow fish.
However I would only have water about 8 months of the year,in the dry the water disappears and I have a huge sand bank in front of the place.
Could I grow fish successfully in eight months?

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## tsicar

> Some good info here.I have a block on the bassac river near phnom penh where I could build a netted pond in the river to grow fish.
> However I would only have water about 8 months of the year,in the dry the water disappears and I have a huge sand bank in front of the place.
> Could I grow fish successfully in eight months?


you could grow out catfish in around 45 days, but not in your nets.
with high quality feed and good fingerlings, you could probably do two batches in that time (3to4 months growout) depending on water temperature.

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## mellow

Hello tsicar, in about 2 weeks we are going to start making spraybars for the biofilters. Wondering what kind of input you may have on this. In our experiments we had some issues with holes getting clogged, also the 2 pumps we will be using will have about 1400 L/M output at a 5M head. Would like to have as much of that water as possible, yet still have a good spray, in all 3 biofilters. Appreciate any constructive discussion on this. What has been your experience on this. Also thinking of rigging up the spraybars, so they can be taken out, replaced by a spare while getting cleaned.

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## tsicar

> Hello tsicar, in about 2 weeks we are going to start making spraybars for the biofilters. Wondering what kind of input you may have on this. In our experiments we had some issues with holes getting clogged, also the 2 pumps we will be using will have about 1400 L/M output at a 5M head. Would like to have as much of that water as possible, yet still have a good spray, in all 3 biofilters. Appreciate any constructive discussion on this. What has been your experience on this. Also thinking of rigging up the spraybars, so they can be taken out, replaced by a spare while getting cleaned.


sorry, mellow.
i never used trickle towers coz i could not figure how i could get the volume of water i needed through a spraybar.
i did, however use home-made spray nozzles at inlet to my biofilter to vigorously disturb surface for oxygenation.
simple 40mm blue pvc heated and squashed down then cooled. left a slot about 5mm wide at the end.
made a manifols of tee's and elbows, but did not cement the joints, so that nozzles could be aimed independently. each one had a cheap pvc valve so that i could balance pressures between obviously rough nozzles.
don't know if you could adapt something that could work for you, good news is that they never clogged.

oh, i also gravity fed my tanks via a similar manifold, made of 5 inch pvc. no taps, but uncemented inlets meant i could balance them exactly by simply swivelling them independently higher or lower, and timing each with a bucket to get the required flow for each tank. a tank with higher density stocking could then easily be fed extra water, calculate the exact flow needed, time how long it takes to fill a bucket of known volume, and adjust flow accordingly.

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## cambtek

> Originally Posted by cambtek
> 
> 
> Some good info here.I have a block on the bassac river near phnom penh where I could build a netted pond in the river to grow fish.
> However I would only have water about 8 months of the year,in the dry the water disappears and I have a huge sand bank in front of the place.
> Could I grow fish successfully in eight months?
> 
> 
> you could grow out catfish in around 45 days, but not in your nets.
> with high quality feed and good fingerlings, you could probably do two batches in that time (3to4 months growout) depending on water temperature.


Thanks for that,but what do you mean about not in your nets?
I can create a netted pond as large as I want.
How many catfish to the cubic metre?
How much does it cost to feed them.
The beauty of the river is that I have a continual flow of water to get rid of the nutrients.

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## tsicar

> Originally Posted by tsicar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by cambtek
> ...


the 45 days thing you could achieve in a recirculating system where you have absolute control of all the variables. it is an ideal situation, total control of water quality, ph and temperature.
the nets (i used them at first), if made from that blue "paa-faa" shit, do NOT flow water after a short while: algae and slime clog them very sucessfully (if you don't believe me, try lift one out of the water after a month of rearing)
stocking density:
dunno, i used to, but i dumped the system after a while (HUGE losses): i would suggest not much more than the thai ag dept recommends for a normal pond. (pretty low)
even in a "perfect" recirculating system in thailand, your profit margin is probably around 10000 baht per ton, if you do not sell to the retailers.
you are very unlikely to come across good quality fingerlings in thailand, unless you breed them yourself, good quality feed is expensive, and unless you can afford the learning curve, (a few years of losses) i would suggest you rather relax on your porch and admire the view of the tranquil river flowing by........

sorry if i sound like a pessimist, but i have tried all the options, and the closest i ever got to making any money at all was the recirculating system, controlled environment on high protien feed, plus (and this was the key), producing my own fingerlings and discarding the non-performers (around 70%) which you will buy from the thais and waste your money on.
i can only speak for catfish, and mellow has experience in tilapia, 
perhaps the figures work out better for them.
or else you could look up on tv,a lying (or confused) asshole called redbullhorn, who, in spite of his obvious lack of training, has confounded the known science and made huge profits out of farming catfish in temperature ranges where they will NOT grow, uses cheap feed that will NOT sustain growth, sells to wholesalers at far below the rearing price, and buys non-performing, third grade fingerlings from a thai rip-off hatchery.
evidently he has discovered something that scientists and biologists have missed out on during the past 40 years or so that the rearing of catfish has been studied, and perhaps when he publishes a paper or two about his amazing sucesses, the universities of the world will find out that all their research was in vain, and recommend this genius' rearing methods....
in the meantime i suggest you do a lot of research and spend a lot of time with a calculator, pencil and paper.
making money from fishfarming is a far cry from simply stocking a pond or a net and throwing in feed for a while. if it was THAT simple, then all of the thais would be doing it, instead of just concentrating on rearing buffalo..........

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## mellow

Thanks for your reply tsicar. I'm gonna do the spray bars for now, see how they perform then go from there. Got 3 biofilter towers up for this system, will check flow rate prior to adding media, spray bars, and after. See how close I can match the initial flow rate. It will be about 2 weeks till this happens, will let you know how it works out.

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## mark131v

> Thanks for your reply tsicar. I'm gonna do the spray bars for now, see how they perform then go from there. Got 3 biofilter towers up for this system, will check flow rate prior to adding media, spray bars, and after. See how close I can match the initial flow rate. It will be about 2 weeks till this happens, will let you know how it works out.


Hi fellas,

just wanted to bump this thread to find out how things are progressing (or not!!) as I am looking at having a go at tank raising Tilapia

any advice positive or not gratefully accepted

Mark

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## tsicar

> Originally Posted by mellow
> 
> 
> Thanks for your reply tsicar. I'm gonna do the spray bars for now, see how they perform then go from there. Got 3 biofilter towers up for this system, will check flow rate prior to adding media, spray bars, and after. See how close I can match the initial flow rate. It will be about 2 weeks till this happens, will let you know how it works out.
> 
> 
> Hi fellas,
> 
> just wanted to bump this thread to find out how things are progressing (or not!!) as I am looking at having a go at tank raising Tilapia
> ...


don't waste your time on the tilapia in a tank system.
they are too dependant on oxygen and much better suited (cheaper) to raise in ponds using the green water method i.e. feed costs are greatly reduced.

raise catfish in tanks- they actually do better at incredibly high stocking densities than what you could stock in a pond, grow much faster and easy to manage, tougher than tilapia, easy to transport without high mortality rates and very easy to produce your own fingerlings.

all this of course assuming you can keep nitrite levels properly under control using biofiltration, ie. good water quality is the key to sucessful rearing of fish.

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## mark131v

Tsicar, 

Iam all ears (not literally!!) the reason I had looked at Tilapia, and this is all fairly new, is because a Fillipino guy I work with was talking about this and we have just moved over to our own house and now have land to do this 

I had initially thought of catfish as we have 2 round concrete tanks in the garden in the house we have bought full of baby catfish (about 4 inch long when I left to come back to work) and these fellas seem tough but quite shy and happy with the water being dirty. At the moment all the missus does is feed them and renew some of the water every few days.

I know there must be far better ways to do this in order to raise fish for our own consumption and who knows maybe cover our expenses at some stage perhaps.
I have had a bit of a look on here and TV and tbh I hadnt realised people where raising catfish in tanks and thought it was more a green water pond type thing

I am looking at the whole biofilter concept but my knowledge of fish farming could be written on the back of a fag packet so any advice from you guys who have been there and done it would be very gratefully accepted

many thanks Mark

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## tsicar

> Tsicar, 
> 
> Iam all ears (not literally!!) the reason I had looked at Tilapia, and this is all fairly new, is because a Fillipino guy I work with was talking about this and we have just moved over to our own house and now have land to do this 
> 
> I had initially thought of catfish as we have 2 round concrete tanks in the garden in the house we have bought full of baby catfish (about 4 inch long when I left to come back to work) and these fellas seem tough but quite shy and happy with the water being dirty. At the moment all the missus does is feed them and renew some of the water every few days.
> 
> I know there must be far better ways to do this in order to raise fish for our own consumption and who knows maybe cover our expenses at some stage perhaps.
> I have had a bit of a look on here and TV and tbh I hadnt realised people where raising catfish in tanks and thought it was more a green water pond type thing
> 
> ...


the recirculating system with biofilter requires 100%committment and without the proper knowledge can break you.
circular tanks are also unsuitable for this type of aquaculture.
you cannot buy quality fingerlings in thailand and the sucess of such an operation, which relies on small profit margin but fast turnaround would require that you breed your own.
i would suggest you carry on as you are doing, and if you want to farm fish, study up on tilapia in ponds on the greenwater system.
feed cost is minimal and you could make a nice profit this way.
make sure that you source single-sex tilapia for this purpose

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## mark131v

Thanks Tsicar,

I will keep watching and listening, thanks for the advice

Mark

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## David48atTD

Yes, I know it's a bump, but just after reading the first page there are some good contributors who know their Plar Nin from their Pla Duk

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