#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Living In Thailand Forum >  >  > Health, Fitness and Hospitals in Thailand >  >  Testosterone Replacement Therapy and HGH

## Sumbitch

I am 64 and just talked with an Urologist about TRT. Even though I'm aging, my specific interest in this topic is sports performance enhancement (mountaineering). I thought to myself, my age being what it is, that my testosterone level should be low. Turns out it's over the top (according to this doc's -at CM Ram- scale which is 300-900). My level is 1010 and I've seen other scales where that's just at the high end of normal. But since my goal is to enhance sports performance (we all know about the younger athletes who have indulged--or not). I am seriously considering having the TRT at least, even though my testosterone level is normal. I talked about it with the doc and he prolly would prescribe it but he hasn't any experience with my 'symptoms', simply because nobody's asked for it before, after I've seen a Sports Medicine Doc and maybe an endocrinologist, depending on the sport doc's evaluation. (I plan to see both, if necessary).

I'm also interested in Human Growth Hormone, which is used as an anti-aging therapy (in addition to other uses)

Once I started researching a little bit more I learned that TRT and HGH are part of HRT (Hormone Replacement Therapy)

I searched a bit around the health forum and couldn't find anything close to this specific topic: posters having experience with any of the above and especially athletes (users or otherwise) and very especially those over the hill with desires like mine (i.e., users of performance enhancing drugs who have an enhancement in mind other than as a sexual enhancement).  :Smile: 

I forgot to mention expense, which may be a show-stopper at one point or another. As far as the sports enhance requirement goes, that should prolly end in 5-10 years max.

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## taxexile

i think a psychiatrist might be of more use to you.

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## thaimeme

Anti-Aging Therapy.
No such beast.


Just grow old healthy and happy without giving it unnecessary thought.

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## Sumbitch

> i think a psychiatrist might be of more use to you.


I'm going to add to your rep (color red) of being the biggest asshole MOFO troller on teakdoor.




> Anti-Aging Therapy.
> No such beast.
> 
> 
> Just grow old healthy and happy without giving it unnecessary thought.


Human Growth Hormone (HGH) and Testosterone Replacement Therapy for HRT - Danger & Play

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## bearbait

Great grandmother on my father's side was in Ireland, but from Wales with a last name of Blaney. You are the first I have ever come across & happen to be curious.
Any of your relation spend some time in County Monaghan near Lough Muckno ?   :Confused:

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## taxexile

> Originally Posted by taxexile
> 
> i think a psychiatrist might be of more use to you.
> 
> 
> I'm going to add to your rep (color red) of being the biggest asshole MOFO troller on teakdoor.


 after you've seen the shrink,  can book some anger management therapy.
 :Smile:

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## Sumbitch

> after you've seen the shrink, can book some anger management therapy.


What motivates you? Spit?




> Great grandmother on my father's side was in Ireland, but from Wales with a last name of Blaney. You are the first I have ever come across & happen to be curious.
> Any of your relation spend some time in County Monaghan near Lough Muckno ?


There are a lot of Blaneys in America, most unrelated to moi. My brother is a family history buff and I'll send him the question.  :Smile:

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## bearbait

> Great grandmother on my father's side was in Ireland, but from Wales with a last name of Blaney. You are the first I have ever come across & happen to be curious.
> Any of your relation spend some time in County Monaghan near Lough Muckno ?


There are a lot of Blaneys in America, most unrelated to moi. My brother is a family history buff and I'll send him the question.  :Smile: [/QUOTE]


Appreciate that wjb.

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## boloa

> Even though I'm aging, my specific interest in this topic is sports performance enhancement (mountaineering).


I think you mean Mounting rear-ending     :cmn:

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## taxexile

peter pan



> What motivates you? Spit?


what you do with yourself, your body and your health is, as you imply not really any business of mine, but when a 62 year old man with apparently no adverse symptoms of declining health posts on a public forum about altering his body's natural hormonal balance by ingesting commercially produced chemicals in what can only be described as a vain quest for eternal youth i do feel compelled to provocatively question the sanity of that man.

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## Davis Knowlton

> when a 62 year old man with apparently no adverse symptoms of declining health posts on a public forum about altering his body's natural hormonal balance by ingesting commercially produced chemicals in what can only be described as a vain quest for eternal youth i do feel compelled to provocatively question the sanity of that man.


Agree. Nature will eventually take its course.

Count your blessings.

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## Sumbitch

> what you do with yourself, your body and your health is, as you imply not really any business of mine, but when a 62 year old man with apparently no adverse symptoms of declining health posts on a public forum about altering his body's natural hormonal balance by ingesting commercially produced chemicals in what can only be described as a vain quest for eternal youth i do feel compelled to provocatively question the sanity of that man.





> Agree. Nature will eventually take its course.
> 
> Count your blessings.


Don't disagree. The first question the doctor asked me 'For the ladies?' Absolutely not. It's just harder to convince pen pals of my sincerity than it would be face to face. My doctor is convinced, I'm convinced, so my motivation is either what I said it was or I'm a fantastic liar (which I also believe is true). 

Pls stop with the self-help posts.  :sexy:  BEFORE IT BECOMES BULLYING

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## Sumbitch

> what you do with yourself, your body and your health is, as you imply not really any business of mine, but when a 62 year old man with apparently no adverse symptoms of declining health posts on a public forum about altering his body's natural hormonal balance by ingesting commercially produced chemicals in what can only be described as a vain quest for eternal youth i do feel compelled to provocatively question the sanity of that man.


Sad, as someone redded me for; yes, because I would have posted the same until recently. Search for eternal youth? Prolly subconsciously. Why do you feel provoked?

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## taxexile

i dont feel provoked, it was the question and comments i posted of you that were provocative.

i dont recall sending you a red reputation either.

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## VocalNeal

Well according to my brother who is medically trained. The body like to be in equilibrium so if you add testosterone it produces more estrogen to balance it out. TRT is OK if you want moobs and other female side effects. 

Yes living longer means living longer OLD, you don't live longer younger. Except mentally, if lucky.

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## Sumbitch

> i dont feel provoked, it was the question and comments i posted of you that were provocative.
> 
> i dont recall sending you a red reputation either.


You said you were 'provocatively compelled'. I know where you're at: you post what appears to be a rational reply but end it with a flame in an attempt to provoke me. I did not say you redded me. I said 'someone redded me'. Red it again.




> Well according to my brother who is medically trained. The body like to be in equilibrium so if you add testosterone it produces more estrogen to balance it out. TRT is OK if you want moobs and other female side effects. 
> 
> Yes living longer means living longer OLD, you don't live longer younger. Except mentally, if lucky.


That is true. But what are forums for, if not seeking opinions, comments and ......reminders! 

Greened

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## FailSafe

In LOS you should be able to find a doctor who has some experience with body builders who use steroids and HGH and has more than cursory knowledge (do some research and ask questions to which you already know the answers and see what he comes back with)- you want to have some supervision and regular blood checks.  As far as conversion to estrogen is concerned, VN's brother needs to learn what an aromatase inhibitor is.

I have a friend who went overboard on TRT (without proper supervision) and he ended up having mood swings and violent outbursts that eventually ended his marriage- you can do it safely, but you can't do it stupidly.

I've often been tempted by the easy availability of various OTC drugs in LOS but haven't used any (perhaps when I get older and can't perform as well in the gym)- I'm interested to hear of your experience if you take the plunge.

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## taxexile

> You said you were 'provocatively compelled'.


no i didnt, what i said in post #10 was ...





> i do feel compelled to provocatively question


i'd buy reading glasses before scrotum supplements.
 :Smile:

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## Sumbitch

^I'd  buy a new brain, in your next life, if you say that's not the same thing.  :Smile:

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## taxexile

i think there is a world of difference between "compelled to provocatively question" and "provocatively compelled to question"

maybe an expert on english grammar can comment.

if i am wrong then i will eat humble pie and apologise.

compel = forced to act.
provoke = to make angry.

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## Sumbitch

> i think there is a world of difference between "compelled to provocatively question" and "provocatively compelled to question"
> 
> maybe an expert on english grammar can comment.
> 
> if i am wrong then i will eat humble pie and apologise.
> 
> compel = forced to act.
> provoke = to make angry.


OK, I'll put my threat on hold if you agree I got your snipe.  :Smile:

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## taxexile

you couldnt be fairer than that.

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## Sumbitch

^ no greenie for the simpering reason it's too soon.

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## Neverna

Why not go the legal and safe way and buy an altitude tent to improve your performance? http://www.hypoxico.com 

Also weight training will provide you with growth hormone naturally.  http://nstarzone.com/EXERCISE.html

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## Sumbitch

> Why not go the legal and safe way and buy an altitude tent to improve your performance? Altitude tent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Also weight training will provide you with growth hormone naturally.


Yeah, I've followed pros up the peaks and divined their attitude and the first thing I noticed (beyond fitness---like 2%-3% body fat) was their respect for gear. So mechanics is a major factor to success. And they won't offer this nice little tidbit of info (they got their own clique, after all). 

And I've done weight training for 20 years. I would have given it up years ago if I didn't know I'd be on a mountain in 6 months to a year. I always had a negative view of body building until I subscribed to Muscle & Fitness (Ronnie Coleman--what a freakin' monster!) I guess their motivation is ego and I just don't go in the gym for that. Used to be climbers completely dissed body building b/c of the power-to-weight ratio. From wiki: Power-to-weight ratio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 


> Power-to-weight ratio is a measurement of actual performance of any engine or power source. It is also used as a measurement of performance of a vehicle as a whole, with the engine's power output being divided by the weight (or mass) of the vehicle, to give a metric that is independent of the vehicle's size. Power-to-weight is often quoted by manufacturers at the peak value, but the actual value may vary in use and variations will affect performance.


 Funny isn't it? They look at the body as if it was a machine. I look at it as if it's a park ride. Hence, no obsession but what an adrenaline rush (soon forgotten, thence the attraction to an addict like moi).

That fits with their crush on high tech gear (e.g. the altitude tent. It makes a HUGE difference in performance). So I'm in a hot spot: don't want to fully commit to the sport (want to remain unknown and anonymous---and as lazy as possible) but want to be special at the same time. You'll find very few amateurs (like myself) who put their goals in this order (I don't know about the pros. They're so far above my place in the scheme of things). I feel right about it, though, and failure is very depressing. I also had a manic-depressive mother so it's in the genes I guess. But hard exercise definitely is an antidote. I've also had some success climbing in South America but now I'm looking at the top of the world (Himalaya) and I could, I guess, be satisfied with just looking and trekking. But just not yet.

I started this thread with a light-hearted attitude but I'm very serious about both activities (body building and climbing). And I believe in cheating----seriously.  :spam2:

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## Sumbitch

> Also weight training will provide you with growth hormone naturally.


You're right about that. I saw an urologist yesterday and he said my testosterone and hormone levels were more like a 35 year old.

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## Neverna

- Altitude Training

Use it before you go anywhere near a mountain. I would seriously consider something like this myself. I believe some models aren't very expensive.

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## Takeovers

> Originally Posted by taxexile
> 
> i think a psychiatrist might be of more use to you.
> 
> 
> I'm going to add to your rep (color red) of being the biggest asshole MOFO troller on teakdoor.



I am not usually one to green taxexile. But I make an exception for this one.

Edit: sorry, seems I greened you already recently.

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## Sumbitch

> Originally Posted by wjblaney
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by taxexile
> ...


Funny one on yu. We manned up already.  :Smile:

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## BaitongBoy

> I am not usually one to green taxexile. But I make an exception for this one.


Heh...Well stated...

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## Sumbitch

I've already greened tex for post #2

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## BaitongBoy

Okay...

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## Sumbitch

...he greened me back for post #21

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## Sumbitch

> Great grandmother on my father's side was in Ireland, but from Wales with a last name of Blaney. You are the first I have ever come across & happen to be curious.
> Any of your relation spend some time in County Monaghan near Lough Muckno ?


from my brother's email: 


> We've made no visits to County Monaghan.  County Donegal is where you will find the heart of our Blaney relatives, specifically, in the town of Letterkenney.  I've no doubt that there are Blaneys in England.  Whether more than distantly related, I doubt.  Just like there are Blaneys here in West Virginia, but I haven't found any reasonably direct connection to us.  And keep in mind that the Blayney spelling of the surname is fairly common.  I assume that we have a distant connection to that clan as well

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## VocalNeal

> but want to be special at the same time.




On a serious note. For mountain climbers at the peak of their game there is usually only one way and that is down. I understand that 64 year-olds are fitter than previous generations but that doesn't necessarily mean healthier. Seen it with runners eventually despite all their efforts and gym time they simply get slower.

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## bearbait

> Originally Posted by bearbait
> 
> Great grandmother on my father's side was in Ireland, but from Wales with a last name of Blaney. You are the first I have ever come across & happen to be curious.
> Any of your relation spend some time in County Monaghan near Lough Muckno ?
> 
> 
> from my brother's email: 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for that querry to your bro wjb ..... long shot that it was.

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## nidhogg

Any possible benefits to TRT (and it is far from proven that there are any) come from replacement - that why it is in the name - replacement therapy.

You already note that you are high/normal - so by no stretch can it be a replacement.  So you are thinking of TST - supplement therapy, going over normal levels.  Well, side effects include shrunken balls and moobs, so good luck there.

Now, personally, I would find a damn good endocrinologist and try to find out WHY your testosterone levels are high normal at your age - because -and pay attention to this bit - it could indicate an underlying pathology such as adrenal or testicular tumour.

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## Davis Knowlton

^Good point. I'm about the same age, work out every day, and am quite happy to have all my lab results come back in the 'normal' range. Abnormally high can often be just as much of a warning sign as abnormally low.

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## Sumbitch

^ As they all are. I did see the endocrinologist today and she thinks my level might be low after all. So she wants another blood test tomorrow (last one was a year ago) and then an ultrasound in the afternoon, presumable for all those other bloody diseases someone mentioned.  :Smile:

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## BobR

I foolishly started taking testosterone supplements several years back and noticed a change in my behavior that was frightening.  Suddenly the children at school were far more annoying and I found my temper control and tolerance had gone way down.

The final straw was when I caught myself splitting traffic like a maniac on my motorcycle on Sukhumvit near Pattaya, and suddenly asked myself "what the fuck are you doing?"  

I went home threw them away and quickly returned to normal.

In the police department we had a real problem with steroid users and roid rage.  One of the few times I was hurt was when I and another officer tried to pull one of our  buffed out apes off a drunk he was kicking in the head with steel toed boots just because the drunk had spit on him.  I got knocked back against the jail cell bars by the officer and had a bad bloody laceration on the back of my skull. 

Officer Roid Rage later went to prison for torturing a prisoner with a stun gun, and while I was sad to see him get prison, I was glad he was gone from the police department.

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## Sumbitch

How old were you? Why were you taking it? HOW were you taking it? (there are reportedly different side effects for the different treatments (injection, pills-which are a definite no, no, gel patches and there are other forms as well) Was it prescribed to you because you had low testosterone or free testosterone levels?

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## Sumbitch

From an article posted by the National Library of Medicine

The benefits and risks of testosterone replacement therapy: a review




> *Increased longevity and population aging will increase the number of men with late onset hypogonadism. It is a common condition, but often underdiagnosed and undertreated. The indication of testosterone-replacement therapy (TRT) treatment requires the presence of low testosterone level, and symptoms and signs of hypogonadism. Although controversy remains regarding indications for testosterone supplementation in aging men due to lack of large-scale, long-term studies assessing the benefits and risks of testosterone-replacement therapy in men, reports indicate that TRT may produce a wide range of benefits for men with hypogonadism that include improvement in libido and sexual function, bone density, muscle mass, body composition, mood, erythropoiesis, cognition, quality of life and cardiovascular disease.[/COLOR][/COLOR]* *Perhaps the most controversial area is the issue of risk, especially possible stimulation of prostate cancer by testosterone, even though no evidence to support this risk exists. Other possible risks include worsening symptoms of benign prostatic hypertrophy, liver toxicity, hyperviscosity, erythrocytosis, worsening untreated sleep apnea or severe heart failure.*


It is a long abstract and the points, for and against, can be argued but these are two reasons I am attracted to TRT: 1) *Improved body composition and muscle mass and strength* I'll be honest, I'm a normal weight but I want increased benefits from the long hours, sweat and pain in the gym. And 2) *Mood and energy and quality of life* 




> Mood and energy and quality of life
> 
> Men older than 50 years with low free testosterone levels had poorer quality of life. Hypogonadal men commonly complain of loss of libido, dysphoria, fatigue, and irritability.67,70,144,145 These symptoms overlap with signs and symptoms of major depression. There is significant inverse correlation between bioavailable testosterone and a depression score in elderly men, independent of age and weight but not with total testosterone levels.146 There was a reduced libido and reduced feelings of well being and minimal effect on mood in patients with induced testosterone deficiency; the depressive symptoms during the hypogonadal state were reversed by testosterone replacement.147


I am currently prescribed Zoloft for depression, have been for only a couple of months and it's long term, unless I can find I don't need it any more. Manic-depression was present in my mother, and, unfortunately for her, she didn't exercise or stretch or do any of the modern 'natural' treatments for depression. My addiction to exercise might have kept my symptoms on hold in So. Cal. (or not, since I'm 5 years older than when I lasted lived there). Now I live in LOS and for a long time I haven't had the motivation to work out as hard, as long or as often as I used to (which has been about 20 years in all) If I try to blame the weather, I wonder how so, in a well air conditioned gym? And I said, the depression seems recent (I worked out just as hard in LOS for my first three years here and, sometimes in worse than western-style gyms or even outside). My prescription for Zoloft is for as long as I want it and I SWEAR TO GOD i DON'T ABUSE IT  :saythat:   B/C I DO abuse drugs (so I guess you could call me addict and I wouldn't take offense). That's also why I couldn't find any constructive use for 'droids until now. I don't want to be dependent on a pill if there is hospital therapy which does the same job with other benefits as well. I want to know if the there is better treatment for my depression.

More interesting risks (to be objective). Sorry, forgot the source.  :dev+ang: 



> Risks of testosterone replacement therapy
> The risks of testosterone replacement therapy depend upon age, life circumstances, and other medical conditions.26 There is a risk for prostate cancer and worsening symptoms of benign prostatic hypertrophy, liver toxicity and tumor, worsening symptoms of sleep apnea and congestive heart failure, gynecomastia, infertility and skin diseases. Testosterone replacement therapy is not appropriate for men who are interested in fathering a child because exogenous testosterone will suppress the HPT axis. The risks of testosterone replacement therapy are summarized in Table 3.


But I'd like to make another response to BobR (from Strange but True: Testosterone Alone Does Not Cause Violence - Scientific American




> Strange but True: Testosterone Alone Does Not Cause Violence
> Hormones don't necessarily make men violent, but they do cause them to seek social dominance
> July 5, 2007 |By Christopher Mims
> 
> It's commonly assumed that testosterone, that stereotypically male hormone, is intimately tied to violence. The evidence is all around us: weight lifters who overdose on anabolic steroids experience "roid rage," and castrationthe removal of the source of testosteronehas been a staple of animal husbandry for centuries.
> 
> But what is the nature of that relationship? If you give a normal man a shot of testosterone, will he turn into the Incredible Hulk? And do violent men have higher levels of testosterone than their more docile peers?
> 
> "[Historically,] researchers expected an increase in testosterone levels to inevitably lead to more aggression, and this didn't reliably occur," says Frank McAndrew, a professor of psychology at Knox College in Galesburg, Ill. Indeed, the latest research about testosterone and aggression indicates that there's only a weak connection between the two. And when aggression is more narrowly defined as simple physical violence, the connection all but disappears.
> ...


 :spam2:

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## Neverna

> ... my goal is to enhance sports performance ...





> And I've done weight training for 20 years. 
> 
> So I'm in a hot spot: don't want to fully commit to the sport (want to remain unknown and anonymous---and as lazy as possible) but want to be special at the same time.
> 
> I've also had some success climbing in South America but now I'm looking at the top of the world (Himalaya)
> 
> ... I'm very serious about both activities (body building and climbing). And I believe in cheating----seriously.


What specifically do you want to enhance (which aspects[s] of your fitness or sports performance)? 

And do you believe that the only difference between you and the top climbers is level of fitness? (And that that level of fitness can be bridged by using THT or HGH?)

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## Sumbitch

> What specifically do you want to enhance (which aspects[s] of your fitness or sports performance)?


Lean body fat, strength and stamina. Overall fitness is more important than sports performance as far as my goals are concerned, however. 




> And do you believe that the only difference between you and the top climbers is level of fitness?


That's silly. I simply want to be a 'average' amateur climber, which means 50% will summit before me and 50% after. Which is where I was at 12 years ago. I just don't feel I'm there any more.

There's so many things that separate me from top climbers, aside from fitness: age, devotion to the sport, experience, genetics, however you want to define athletic ability.




> (And that that level of fitness can be bridged by using THT or HGH?)


Certainly not. Fitness can not be obtained without hard work. I really believe 'no pain, no gain'. But I'd consider taking supplements if they will help produce results that I wasn't getting before, with the same amount of work. It's not going to change my ethic: 'no pain, no gain'.  :tieme:

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## funcrew

Keep in mind that the T ranges the doctors quote are age specific, and decline with age. An "anti aging" doctor will provide an RX for supplemental testosterone to bring your free T level up to that of a much younger man. T therapy is not very expensive and will definitely improve your sports performance. The main downside is increased risk for prostate cancer. An ethical Dr. will test and continue to monitor your PSA level prior to and during T therapy. It's a perfectly valid approach if you want to continue strenuous activity at your age. Remember though that your joints are worn out, so don't ignore the rest of your body if it can't keep up with your increased muscle strength. Good luck to you.

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## BobR

> How old were you? Why were you taking it? HOW were you taking it? (there are reportedly different side effects for the different treatments (injection, pills-which are a definite no, no, gel patches and there are other forms as well) Was it prescribed to you because you had low testosterone or free testosterone levels?


Old enough that I should have known better (54) and I was taking those Andriol Testocaps the Thai pharmacies sell and hoping they would reduce my belly fat and increase my sex drive and/or ability and they were not prescribed to me by a doctor, I "self prescribed them."  The point I wanted to make was that it's simple enough to get your testosterone level tested, why not get that done before messing around with supplements?

Later I had a complete physical when I was in the USA and asked for a testosterone level test, it was not low.

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## Sumbitch

> Keep in mind that the T ranges the doctors quote are age specific, and decline with age. An "anti aging" doctor will provide an RX for supplemental testosterone to bring your free T level up to that of a much younger man. T therapy is not very expensive and will definitely improve your sports performance. The main downside is increased risk for prostate cancer. An ethical Dr. will test and continue to monitor your PSA level prior to and during T therapy. It's a perfectly valid approach if you want to continue strenuous activity at your age. Remember though that your joints are worn out, so don't ignore the rest of your body if it can't keep up with your increased muscle strength. Good luck to you.


Thanks, FC. I'm getting my recommendations and tests at Chiangmai Ram Hospital, which, I think, has a very good recommendation. I had a complete physical there a year ago which showed a high T level. I also take medications for sleep and depression. My meds doctor recommended that TRT and Zoloft together would make a very good combination for my depression. That, along with the benefits of strength and body fat composition, sent me back to Chaingmai Ram to visit a urologist who ordered another blood test. He has no experience with prescribing supplemental testosterone but didn't deny the possible benefits of the treatment so he sent me to an endocrinologist, within the same hospital. I got the results of the blood test on Fri. and they show 'very high' T and hormone levels.   :Disappointed:  Oh, well. All is not lost yet as she is sending me to a second endo, again in the same hospital, for a second opinion. So, yes, I'm working with at least 4 doctors in the same hospital who all have access to my history and I know from past experience that they will unfailingly follow up and evaluate any treatment they give me.

Thanks for reminding me about my PSA level. If it's normal now, then it is no concern for me to start treatment. I'm not even sure that I would stop because of an increase in my PSA level, as the cure could likely be worse than the disease. For one thing, I'm 64 and I could easily imagine letting the disease kill me as it takes so long to develop to that point. Another thing I've read about is that the treatment can have a bad affect on quality of life. Fuck that.

One thing the hospital doesn't have is a sports medicine doctor. They will recommend one but since I can quit the treatment at any time, I don't see where any more information I could get would be worth the visit. 

My joints (knee, in particular) seem to be unbelievably healthy for my age. Within the past 2-10 years I've run 40 miles a week for weeks at a time. If I find a slight twinge I'll take care. For example, this week I ran only 5 days. How much I will ramp that up will depend. It may be simply I'm out of shape (I get a lot of twinges that just seem to come and go without any reason.)

It looks like any prescription I get for TRT will for be for supplemental T. I'm willing to do that of course to get leaner and stronger, which will enhance my performance. And I wonder: medicine is a science of course but their charts of averages and 'high', 'low' and 'normal' cannot possibly include 100% of the population. I'm attempting to find what's _normal_ for me. I know I don't feel normal unless popped up. T, whether they call it supplement or not, looks like a possible solution to help me feel normal during my everyday life, not just during my sports activities. And I'm clear this feeling of 'abnormalcy' is not an aging symptom because I've felt this way my as far back as I can remember in my adult life (I guess I shouldn't include boredom because that has also been consistent during my whole adult life but I believe TRT will eliminate that as well). Sure I've seen evidence of aging: deep lines on the face (for which I'd never consider Botox) and white or grey hair, for example. I'm completely unconcerned with what I look like. This is all about better health, hopefully both psychologically and physically. If those benefits should not occur, I'm smart enough to stop taking the treatment.  




> Old enough that I should have known better (54) and I was taking those Andriol Testocaps the Thai pharmacies sell and hoping they would reduce my belly fat and increase my sex drive and/or ability and they were not prescribed to me by a doctor, I "self prescribed them." The point I wanted to make was that it's simple enough to get your testosterone level tested, why not get that done before messing around with supplements?
> 
> 
> Later I had a complete physical when I was in the USA and asked for a testosterone level test, it was not low.


I am truly going doing everything on "doctor's orders", including a physical, and two blood tests for T level, as I've mentioned in earlier posts.

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## Sumbitch

Well, decision made: it's a  no-go. Finished getting the best medical advice in town and ain't about to do self-therapy. I've heard from one guy who apparently will give me a 'doc' that will prescribe testosterone and from another who says it's available over the counter. I don't know if it's a prescription drug or not and don't care as it won't change my decision.

I am starting to drink about three protein shakes per day, or as I feel is required: only 130 cal per serving, 2.5g fat, 5g carbs, 20g protein. I had one late last night and it really hit the spot. My body has learned over time how to distinguish a 'good food for you' taste from a 'good tasting' food. The protein shakes with just water are palatable but nothing like a smoothie. That's why I was so surprised it hit the right spot in my stomach just perfectly. For about a half an hour. After that I was starving but I like knowing for sure I should eat rather than eating because it's time. I'm pretty sure if you're in balance with carbs, fat, protein, vitamins, minerals, and the right amount of food you need, according to your energy expenditure, your body will let you know you're doing the right thing (eating wise).

Good health all!  :Flush:

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## BaitongBoy

^Wait...Aw shit...You did another turn and went down the pipe...

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## Sumbitch

> Wait...Aw shit...You did another turn and went down the pipe...


I thought that was obvious.

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## BaitongBoy

Twas, indeed...

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## maxperformer

> I am 64 and just talked with an Urologist about TRT. Even though I'm aging, my specific interest in this topic is sports performance enhancement (mountaineering). I thought to myself, my age being what it is, that my testosterone level should be low. Turns out it's over the top (according to this doc's -at CM Ram- scale which is 300-900). My level is 1010 and I've seen other scales where that's just at the high end of normal. But since my goal is to enhance sports performance (we all know about the younger athletes who have indulged--or not). I am seriously considering having the TRT at least, even though my testosterone level is normal. I talked about it with the doc and he prolly would prescribe it but he hasn't any experience with my 'symptoms', simply because nobody's asked for it before, after I've seen a Sports Medicine Doc and maybe an endocrinologist, depending on the sport doc's evaluation. (I plan to see both, if necessary).
> 
> I'm also interested in Human Growth Hormone, which is used as an anti-aging therapy (in addition to other uses)
> 
> Once I started researching a little bit more I learned that TRT and HGH are part of HRT (Hormone Replacement Therapy)
> 
> I searched a bit around the health forum and couldn't find anything close to this specific topic: posters having experience with any of the above and especially athletes (users or otherwise) and very especially those over the hill with desires like mine (i.e., users of performance enhancing drugs who have an enhancement in mind other than as a sexual enhancement). 
> 
> I forgot to mention expense, which may be a show-stopper at one point or another. As far as the sports enhance requirement goes, that should prolly end in 5-10 years max.


Measuring Total testosterone levels tell only the partial story of how your body produces and uses your own produced testosterone. I would recommend a more thorough investigation into your current testosterone status. Supplementing with testosterone is not necessarily a dangerous endeavor if done under medical supervision. Though Thailand has very easy access to PED's I would always suggest people educate themselves before taking ANY medication that is not under the supervision of an EXPERIENCED health care provider. Avoid "Bro-Science" at all costs.

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## Sumbitch

> Measuring Total testosterone levels tell only the partial story of how your body produces and uses your own produced testosterone. I would recommend a more thorough investigation into your current testosterone status. Supplementing with testosterone is not necessarily a dangerous endeavor if done under medical supervision. Though Thailand has very easy access to PED's I would always suggest people educate themselves before taking ANY medication that is not under the supervision of an EXPERIENCED health care provider. Avoid "Bro-Science" at all costs.


I've seen an endocrinologist and she was adamant that my testosterone and hormone levels are high. That's good enough for me. I don't know of any other reason I should have Hormone Replacement Therapy or even just supplemental testosterone, even though I've met gym rats who thoroughly disagree. I figure it comes down to working out harder and sticking to a clean diet, which I know how to do. 

I guess it just surprises me that the older you get the harder and harder you have to work out and the less and less cheating on your diet is necessary. I have found that pain killers (Tylenol, ibuprofen) will really help get my body capable of a good workout (I have osteoarthritis). The mental willpower is always there but arthritis can totally sap the physical energy to make the workout possible, let alone at levels I reached 10-20 years ago. With Tylenol I don't feel the arthritis.

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## Sheryl

I bought HGH from this website sweetgear(dot)ch

It is legit and good stuff from Pfizer

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## alexflash01

Not advertising! Try on the official store in Thailand buyhghthailand.com

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## Cold Pizza

> I am 64 and just talked with an Urologist about TRT. Even though I'm aging, my specific interest in this topic is sports performance enhancement (mountaineering).


No, you're trying to preserve your libido and get it up half of the time.


It's better to tell the truth.


We're here to help.

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