#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Doing Things Legally >  >  Undeclared rental income in Australia

## Mendip

I wasn't sure where to put this... mods, please move if desired.

I'm hoping that with such a diverse membership someone may have some experience/advice...or know someone who has had similar...  thanks in advance if so.

I lived in Perth WA for a couple of years before moving to Thailand, and during that time bought an apartment during the so-called rejuvenation of inner city Perth.

This apartment has been let through an agency since 2013, and... well... I don't seem to have declared any income. It's been a busy few years, I've been distracted, etc etc, but all said and done I didn't address the issue to start with and time slipped by... and now have six undeclared tax years, and well on my way to the seventh.

Recently this has started playing on my mind, and with my daughter's future very important to me I'm wanting to sort this out and become legal. One day I may come to sell the apartment and I'm sure with the capital gains I'll be liable to, the tax authorities may well dig a bit deeper. And to be honest, I just want this off my mind.

Just some details... I'm a British citizen and have never been in the Australian tax system. I have no tax history, no tax id and have never worked in Australia. I think it would be extremely unlikely I'd ever go back to live there, but occasional visits would be nice. My daughter has tri-citizenship, including Aussie. I think an apartment in East Perth may well be useful to her in the future, maybe for accommodation during further education if she goes that way.

I've just spent a morning organising nearly 7 years worth of rental statements and End of Year Statements provided by the letting agents in Perth, but what's the next step?

Does anyone have experience of this? Are the Australian tax authorities likely to catch up with me?
Is there such a thing as an amnesty if I approach them and come clean? What kind of penalties could I expect on top of what I assume wold be huge interest charges.

My rough plan now is to approach Australian accountants and put this to them, and see what they suggests. I don't just want to needlessly waste money though, as I'm sure the wrong accountancy firm could spend hours over this and fleece me.

Any advice please?

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## AntRobertson

> Just some details... I'm a British citizen and have never been in the Australian tax system. I have no tax history, no tax id and have never worked in Australia.


Up until I read that part I was thinking: 'ATO... He's screwed!'  :Very Happy: 

Anyways you're obviously non-resident for tax purposes so that's a good thing though I'm not 100% on how that relates to property, capital gains taxes and all that (and am always wary about offering advice on taxation in any event).

I would also presume that the letting agents have been taking withholding tax or whatever off what they've sent you? Maybe approach them and ask as a first move, I'm sure they would've dealt with similar scenarios previously.

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## panama hat

> My rough plan now is to approach Australian accountants and put this to them, and see what they suggests. I don't just want to needlessly waste money though, as I'm sure the wrong accountancy firm could spend hours over this and fleece me.


Better to err on the side of safety, but I'd suggest to follow Ant's suggestion re the RE agents




> Anyways you're obviously non-resident for tax purposes so that's a good thing though I'm not 100% on how that relates to property, capital gains taxes and all that (and am always wary about offering advice on taxation in any event).


Usually non-residents get taxed at a higher rate . . . cgt and all the other stuff is a nightmare




> I would also presume that the letting agents have been taking withholding tax or whatever off what they've sent you?


Not necessarily, and if they have they would have sent Mendip and annual account summary . . . I think




> Maybe approach them and ask as a first move, I'm sure they would've dealt with similar scenarios previously.


Probably the best suggestion.

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## Seekingasylum

I think you should sell it and repatriate the profits by using hawala. The problem is of course when you try to bank the dosh in your country of residence, particularly if it is within the western regulatory system. So, perhaps best to deposit in Thailand in cash and as evidence of provenance show documents relating to your property sale and Australian bank receipt.
This is the best way to avoid the scrutiny of the Ockers otherwise simply sell, bank the proceeds and transfer bank-to-bank in Bangkok and hope for the best.

Volunteering information to the tax authorities in your position is stupid.

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## David48atTD

> I ... have never been in the Australian tax system. I have no tax history, no tax id and have never worked in Australia. I think it would be extremely unlikely I'd ever go back to live there, but occasional visits would be nice. My daughter has tri-citizenship, including Aussie.


Dodgy Dave suggests, as one strategy ...

SELL IT ... Perth property market is recovering, interest rates are low.

You have never been in the Aussie Tax System (no TFN ... Tax File Number) ... but it does beg the question ... do you have an Aussie Bank Account?
And, to get such an account, you need a TFN (tax id)

My background is in Property   :Smile: 

Maybe better to continue this through a PM?

---

Oh ... and don't worry, your potential crimes will not reflect on your angelic Lassie!

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## Mendip

^^^ There is flat rate of 32.5% on rental income for non-resident landlords in Australia. That is on profit, so strata management fees etc could be offset.

The agency definitely hasn't been witholding tax... what I don't know is whether they are duty bound to report their clients to the tax authorities.

^ I've been mulling over selling the place and just seeing what happens re tax. Unfortunately Perth real estate is on it's knees just now and the apartment is down 30% on it's value of six years ago. Ain't hindsight a wonderful thing!

Sending Aussie dollars back to the UK is favourable exchange rate wise... but as you say, provenence. I believe bank accounts can be opened in Singapore with a large enough deposit. That would be preferable to me as I wouldn't want to make a large deposit in Thailand.

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## Mendip

^^ Yes Dave, I have an account with ANZ  but wasn't aware I had a tax number.

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## David48atTD

^^  "the apartment is down 30% on it's value of six years ago"  ...  Aussie Real Estate falling by 30%?

Is that in Australian Dollar Terms?

PM me ... let's chat.

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## Seekingasylum

> I wouldn't want to make a large deposit in Thailand.


Aahh, if only the rest of us had taken heed......

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## Hugh Cow

The Fall in Perth is probably due to the mining boom which produced a temporary housing bubble. The downturn in mining has hit many towns that had inflated house prices from the mining boom.

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## sabang

Pretty sure you can offset your capital loss against your rental income, and there are also a few bells and whistles you can throw in- like deducting the cost of your Perth trips because you were inspecting the apartment (obviously :Smile: ), repairs real & imagined etc. Talk to a tax accountant there, tell him your situation. Not one of the big firms- they cost an arm and leg- a recommended small or medium sized firm. Oh, that's deductible too.

Doesn't seem to me you are in a real pickle tax wise- you may find you owe nothing at all, maybe even have carried forward tax losses. You might cop a fine, but not much in the scheme of things. 

Or you can try to go dodgy, but don't get caught. Or, why not put up your daughter there, if she's gonna live in Perth and you don't want to sell? You can even will it to her, and your tax offences die with you.

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## crackerjack101

A letter marked "Without Prejudice" to your letting agents explaining the situation and asking for their advice would be my first move. Then see what they come up with. I used to run a letting agency in the UK and the last thing one wants to do is lose a long term customer.

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## TizMe

> ^^ Yes Dave, I have an account with ANZ  but wasn't aware I had a tax number.


You don't need to provide a TFN to open a bank account.
If you don't provide TFN, then they will just take withholding tax from any interest that they pay (which is probably less than half of fuckall)

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## panama hat

> You have never been in the Aussie Tax System (no TFN ... Tax File Number) ... but it does beg the question ... do you have an Aussie Bank Account?


How else wold the real estate agency bank the income - so yes, needs a tfn





> I believe bank accounts can be opened in Singapore with a large enough deposit. That would be preferable to me as I wouldn't want to make a large deposit in Thailand.


You can open an offshore bank account in Singapore, like with HSBC . . . 

I have a normal bank account in Singapore, with credit and debit cards but that's because I worked there for eight years . . . (Roight, guvna, what's it worf to you keeping your dosh in me account?)


.
.
.
.
.

.
(Um, just kidding in case someone is listening in)

Singapore has become very, very strict in their banking regulations - don't count on them being an 'easy' go-to

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## Saint Willy

I just had an account in Indonesia frozen for possible money laundering, I wouldnt risk it with a house sale. I'd I'm pretty sure asking someone to deposiit money into a Singapore account will be flagged if and when you do sell it. 

follow the advice of the others, talk to a small firm tax agent, get it all sorted - it's not a huge problem. If it's down 30% then don't sell, keep it for another decade and see what happens.

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## Chico

Can you not just transfer the property into your Daughters name?

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## nidhogg

From personal experience, opening a bank account in Singapore is damn tough now.  You need PR or an awful lot of cash.

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## Mendip

Thanks everyone! I'm out now and on the phone but all answers are very appreciated... I'm not ignoring it.

I'll respond tomorrow from home!

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## jabir

Not sure on Aussie law or your specific situation, but if you intend to give her the property have you looked into the UK equivalent of gifting? It's a common way to avoid/reduce inheritance taxes (and possibly income/cg taxes if she's a minor and/or with low income or unused tax allowances). 

You gift it to her, it's hers with all benefits and obligations, while inheritance tax liabilities graduate down to zero over 7 years. If you're going to give it to her anyway why now instead of later? Paperwork is done under your watch, so you can wrap it up rather than start worrying on your deathbed if everything is ok, will daughter/wife/executor cope or might they be stitched up by a loose comma or some other admin stitchup, and being an Aussie (which you say she is) worst way she still pays a lower tax rate than you as a farang; it removes a potential headache and costs from you, while if you live another 7 years she gets the full relief; you'll need a lawyer or google for the progression to zero, but even if you live just one year she's that much better off.

And for your unpaid taxes (if due) it's always better to knock on their door and fess up to an honest mistake/oversight, than for them to discover you owe and knock on your door, which starts the process with you on the back foot and tagged guilty.

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## TizMe

> It's a common way to avoid/reduce inheritance taxes


There is no inheritance tax in Aus. However, assets acquired from the estate may become subject to Capital Gains Tax.

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## Norton

> Talk to a tax accountant there, tell him your situation





> talk to a small firm tax agent, get it all sorted


What they said. This could be a start.

The 10 Best Accountants in Perth, WA - Oneflare

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## Pragmatic

> have never worked in Australia.


 You must have blended in quite well with all those lazy ockers.?

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## Looper

Don't bother with the historical income. If you want to go legit just declare this years income and all income going forwards.

You could even kick the tenant out and do bills in your own name for a few months so you can make it look like you turned your private residence into a rental recently when you start renting it out again.

Property agents do not deduct tax from rent. Property agents do not report your income to the ATO. They only report their own income (i.e. their commission).

You could have offset tax on historical rent with capital depreciation but you needed to order an approved depreciation schedule from an agency at the time of purchase.

If you are going legit then get a depreciation schedule drawn up now and offset the future rent with depreciation.

Note that any capital depreciation deductions you claim now for rent tax offset will result in a depreciated capital value of the property for tax purposes meaning that when you come to sell it then your capital gains taxable profit will be larger since it will be = (Sale price - (purchase price - aggregated annual depreciation))

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## TizMe

The ATO uses real property rental bond data from the state and territory rental bond authorities to identify properties that are income producing. Taxation obligations for tax payers holding income producing properties include correct reporting of rental income and capital gains tax (CGT).

In the 2013–14 Federal Budget the government announced that it would legislate to make the reporting of property transfer data to the ATO mandatory. Legislation passed property transfer data from 1 July 2016. The Property transaction data matching protocol published in December 2015 has been amended to support the property transfer data. The rental bond data collection will be supported by this protocol.

So even if the agent hasn't reported the rental income to the ATO. Any deposit to the Rental Bond Board would have been reported.

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## beerlaodrinker

Yer. I know what yer on about. After 14 years of living in Lao i moved my familiy bask to perth. Problem is ive been swirlin the wobbly pops for all that time and really didnt give a fuck. The house was manag3d by century 21 andci paid all mainteance. . Now ive just moved back i  there. I havent submitted a tax return ìn 14 years. A friend put me onto curtin unniverity tax clinic. The accountant students get to practice on basker cases like me. Im hoping at least i dont owe the fookers. I was a non resident. Of course i told lots of lies.

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## beerlaodrinker

Hopefully the accounting students will sort out my shit. And its free

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## Saint Willy

> Hopefully the accounting students will sort out my shit. And its free


Jaysus beerlaos, are you that hard up?

student haircut - no worries
Student massage - all good
student accountants to sort out your shit with the gummint?

two of those items have no lasting effect, but one could have serious consequences

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## Mendip

> Aahh, if only the rest of us had taken heed......


I should have said "I wouldn't want to make _any more_ large deposits in Thailand"... don't worry, I've made my fair share of mistakes in the past...




> The Fall in Perth is probably due to the mining boom which produced a temporary housing bubble. The downturn in mining has hit many towns that had inflated house prices from the mining boom.


Yeah, the mining boom also coincided with a busy oil and gas industry and made the Perth property market extremely buoyant around 2006 to 2013. China's slowdown put and end to the mining boom and oil and gas crashed 2015... my understanding is that the Perth property market is the worst it's ever been with few signs of an improvement in the near future. I believe that it's only really Chinese investment that's kept it going the past few years.




> Pretty sure you can offset your capital loss against your rental income, and there are also a few bells and whistles you can throw in- like deducting the cost of your Perth trips because you were inspecting the apartment (obviously), repairs real & imagined etc. Talk to a tax accountant there, tell him your situation. Not one of the big firms- they cost an arm and leg- a recommended small or medium sized firm. Oh, that's deductible too.
> 
> Doesn't seem to me you are in a real pickle tax wise- you may find you owe nothing at all, maybe even have carried forward tax losses. You might cop a fine, but not much in the scheme of things. 
> 
> Or you can try to go dodgy, but don't get caught. Or, why not put up your daughter there, if she's gonna live in Perth and you don't want to sell? You can even will it to her, and your tax offences die with you.


I would prefer to come clean and not stay dodgy... this has been playing on my mind of late. If not sold beforehand, the apartment will no doubt be willed to my daughter and then, as you say, my offences would be forgotten. My main concern is what will happen if I try to sell beforehand... if that would open a can of worms. 

There are substantial outgoings to offset against the rent... unavoidable strata fees are astronomical (around 1800$ a quarter), etc etc. My offshore work is through my own UK based limited company so I am well used to 'finding' expenses to offset against corporation tax, etc. My concern here is fines/prosecution for tax avoidance, if the ATO find out, which I think could be punitive.





> A letter marked "Without Prejudice" to your letting agents explaining the situation and asking for their advice would be my first move. Then see what they come up with. I used to run a letting agency in the UK and the last thing one wants to do is lose a long term customer.


This is now my first step next week... I think I'll start with a phone call to keep it off the record. I have a good relationship with my asset manager and I think she will be helpful. Hopefully this will lead to a suitable tax accountant. As discussed elsewhere, a small accountancy will be the way to go, rather than the expense of a big firm. Also, hopefully an accountant that's not a stickler for honesty.




> ^^  "the apartment is down 30% on it's value of six years ago"  ...  Aussie Real Estate falling by 30%?
> 
> Is that in Australian Dollar Terms?
> 
> PM me ... let's chat.


Dave... I'm happy to keep this open as it's anonymous, and may be useful to someone else. I can't believe I'm the first person to get into this situation... aah, BLD below!

I bought the 98m2 apartment in 2004 for $340k AUD. Around 2013 it was valued at around $600k to $650k AUD, and currently it languishes at around $450k AUD. I wish I could go back to 2013, but there ya go. Capital gains won't be such an issue, my understanding is that it runs at a flat 30% for foreign residents, but is discounted by 50% if the property has been held for more than 1 year. But if/when I get my tax issues sorted I think I'll keep the place, at least until the price improves significantly... or if ever my daughter decides to live in Perth (she's only 8 at the moment).

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## AntRobertson

I've only ever had one encounter with the ATO and it didn't end well. They appear to be a pack of professional c**ts so I wish anyone dealing with them all the luck.

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## Mendip

> Don't bother with the historical income. If you want to go legit just declare this years income and all income going forwards.
> 
> You could even kick the tenant out and do bills in your own name for a few months so you can make it look like you turned your private residence into a rental recently when you start renting it out again.
> 
> Property agents do not deduct tax from rent. Property agents do not report your income to the ATO. They only report their own income (i.e. their commission).
> 
> You could have offset tax on historical rent with capital depreciation but you needed to order an approved depreciation schedule from an agency at the time of purchase.
> 
> If you are going legit then get a depreciation schedule drawn up now and offset the future rent with depreciation.
> ...


The tenant changed around two years ago, and I've just received notice from the letting agents that the current tenant has given notice to vacate in a month's time, so I guess either event could be used as a good point to start declaring tax from. Do you not think the ATO may dig a bit deeper if I suddenly approached them with undeclared tax... and could they start investigating previous years?

We left Perth for Korat in 2006, and between 2006 and 2013 I kept bills in my name while friends rented the apartment. I'm not concerned about these years as to all intents and purposes I will still living there (unless the ATO link up with immigration...?). I want to go legit, but not completely.

I don't think capital depreciation is an issue as the property is now worth more than when bought in 2006, but I guess less than in 2013 when I started letting through an agent... it gets confusing... I guess this is why I need some professional help.





> The ATO uses real property rental bond data from the state and territory rental bond authorities to identify properties that are income producing. Taxation obligations for tax payers holding income producing properties include correct reporting of rental income and capital gains tax (CGT).
> 
> In the 201314 Federal Budget the government announced that it would legislate to make the reporting of property transfer data to the ATO mandatory. Legislation passed property transfer data from 1 July 2016. The Property transaction data matching protocol published in December 2015 has been amended to support the property transfer data. The rental bond data collection will be supported by this protocol.
> 
> So even if the agent hasn't reported the rental income to the ATO. Any deposit to the Rental Bond Board would have been reported.


Sorry... are you saying that my rental income will have been reported to the ATO... what is a deposit to the Rental Bond Board and would the agents have necessarily made one? I don't understand this bit...

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## Mendip

> From personal experience, opening a bank account in Singapore is damn tough now.  You need PR or an awful lot of cash.


I need to look into this... someone mentioned to me that an account could be opened with an initial deposit of 70k Sterling. If I did sell the apartment that would be achievable, but then again if everything was sold legit then I guess there would be nothing stopping me transferring the money back to the UK. It would be nice to benefit from the appalling state of the Pound for once.

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## nidhogg

> I need to look into this... someone mentioned to me that an account could be opened with an initial deposit of 70k Sterling. If I did sell the apartment that would be achievable, but then again if everything was sold legit then I guess there would be nothing stopping me transferring the money back to the UK. It would be nice to benefit from the appalling state of the Pound for once.


..and I need to edit this - it is PR, work permit or an awful lot of cash.  And I can believe 70K sterling (honestly cannot remember).

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## panama hat

> Also, hopefully an accountant that's not a stickler for honesty.


You won't find those, the ATO is tough and thorough.  My accountant has three chairs in front of his desk . . . two for guests and the other stays empty - for the virtual tax department.  
He plays with his yarmulke as well, slipping it forward and back - quite funny.

They can bend a bit but a dishonest accountant won't be worth your trouble.  




> I need to look into this... someone mentioned to me that an account could be opened with an initial deposit of 70k Sterling.


I can guarantee you that it can't be done in the way you believe.  DBS sent me several e-mails recently requesting NZ, Aus and Malaysian tax residence status, tax-liabilities to the US, origin of deposits etc etc etc . . . 
I could only open mine because I had first an employment pass then came Permanent Resident status - without it you can't

Seriously, try establishing a Singapore off-shore account with HSBC or similar.  I've had one for years, never really use it, though I can't remember the pre-requisites

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## ootai

> T
> 
> Sorry... are you saying that my rental income will have been reported to the ATO... what is a deposit to the Rental Bond Board and would the agents have necessarily made one? I don't understand this bit...


Mendip
I believe that when a Tenant pays a bond to a rental agent they must pay the bond into an account held by the government's Rental Bond Board.
So if your tenants have put up a bond, which I am sure they would have had to do, then there has most likely been a deposit made to the Rental Bond Board with all the details of the property included.

If you want to use an Aussie accountant to sort out this situation then I could recommend the guy I have been using for the last 15 years. He is based in Adelaide and while he is not dishonest he is open to having discussions about which truths you need to tell him so he can get the best results, the untruths you don't tell him then as he says he is in the clear.

*
*

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## Airportwo

With regards to the "TIN" (Tax identification number) banks will ask for one now for any sizeable transaction, I don't have one. So far my reason for not having one has been accepted by all, "being resident in Thailand I am not required to have one as Thailand has not implemented CRS (Common reporting standards) & is not a signatory at this time"  
Thailand are "planning" on meeting the standard, quite when who knows, then will need to get a Thai tax number, not sure quite what that will entail.
My offshore bank is also happy with this reason - so far.

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## nidhogg

> I can guarantee you that it can't be done in the way you believe.  DBS sent me several e-mails recently requesting NZ, Aus and Malaysian tax residence status, tax-liabilities to the US, origin of deposits etc etc etc . . . 
> I could only open mine because I had first an employment pass then came Permanent Resident status - without it you can't


Respectfully, you can as I did it last year (2 accounts actually with UOB), and I have not lived or worked in Singapore for 20 years.  But the money was super legit, and inside Singapore.

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## Looper

> Do you not think the ATO may dig a bit deeper if I suddenly approached them with undeclared tax.


Just end the management agreement with the current agent.

Go and stay there for a 2 months.

Get a new agent. Rent it out again. Declare the new income going forward.




> and could they start investigating previous years?


They might. But on the other hand they might not.

Worst case you get a bill for tax for past years.

Get a backdated depreciation schedule (if that is possible) and most of the income will be offset by the depreciation.




> I don't think capital depreciation is an issue as  the property is now worth more than when bought in 2006


??

If you bought for $500k and it is now worth $600k then you have $100k of CG taxable profit if you sell.

If you also use a depreciation schedule to offset income (e.g. $10k * 10 years = $100k depreciation) then you now have made a $200k capital gain if you sell so you will have to pay tax on $200k CG.

But CG is taxed at half the rate of income (if you are a resident - not sure about non-res)

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## panama hat

> Respectfully


 :Smile:  . What one says before . . . 

It seems UOB is an exception, no idea why (I googled it and up came UOB - odd) . . . but the difference may be because the funds were in the country to begin with?

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## nidhogg

> Worst case you get a bill for tax for past years.


Uh - worst case is you get a bill for the past years and a massive f*ck off fine.

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## lom

> I want to go legit, but not completely.


You're going to keep the airline cutlery?  :Smile:

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## Mendip

^  :Smile: 

And the blankets!

There's a big difference between collecting and stealing!

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## ootai

Quote: Looper

Get a backdated depreciation schedule (if that is possible) and most of the income will be offset by the depreciation.

 _ 
  Originally Posted by Mendip  (Undeclared rental income in Australia) 
				I don't think capital depreciation is an issue as  the property is now worth more than when bought in 2006

_

??

If you bought for $500k and it is now worth $600k then you have $100k of CG taxable profit if you sell.

What Mendip said:
"I bought the 98m2 apartment in 2004 for $340k AUD. Around 2013 it was valued at around $600k to $650k AUD, and currently it languishes at around $450k AUD. "


I am now convinced that some people don't read what is said before they jump in and post a reply.

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## TizMe

> Sorry... are you saying that my rental income will have been reported to the ATO... what is a deposit to the Rental Bond Board and would the agents have necessarily made one? I don't understand this bit...


In Australia, all bonds are deposited to a government agency. In the case of WA it is Department of Commerce Bond Administrator.

From: Rental Bond: 1985-86 to 2019-20 financial years data matching program protocol | Australian Taxation Office

Rental Bond: 1985-86 to 2019-20 financial years data matching program protocol
At a glance
The ATO uses real property rental bond data from the state and territory rental bond authorities to identify properties that are income producing. Taxation obligations for tax payers holding income producing properties include correct reporting of rental income and capital gains tax (CGT). Ensuring taxpayers meet these obligations is achieved through educational strategies and compliance activities.


Taxpayers owning property producing income have income tax reporting obligations. When a property producing income is subsequently disposed of it triggers a CGT event. Property is often held for many years before being transferred or sold. To identify rental income impacts for CGT liability assessment real property rental bond data dating back to 20 September 1985 (the introduction of the CGT regime) is required. Collecting data back to 1985 does not change our general compliance approach of reviewing CGT events within the standard period of review.


Rental bond data is not a new data collection; it has been collected with the property transfer data under the real property transaction data matching protocol. Property transaction data matching first commenced in 2005 as state and territory based exercises under the CGT Compliance Challenge.


In the 201314 Federal Budget the government announced that it would legislate to make the reporting of property transfer data to the ATO mandatory. Legislation passed property transfer data from 1 July 2016. The Property transaction data matching protocol published in December 2015 has been amended to support the property transfer data. The rental bond data collection will be supported by this protocol.


This protocol has been prepared to meet the requirements of the Guidelines on Data Matching in Australian Government Administration 2014 (Guidelines) published by the Office of the Australian Information Commissioner (OAIC).

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## jabir

> ...I would prefer to come clean and not stay dodgy... this has been playing on my mind of late. If not sold beforehand, the apartment will no doubt be willed to my daughter and then, as you say, my offences would be forgotten. My main concern is what will happen if I try to sell beforehand... if that would open a can of worms...


Not legal advice since you should know to do your due diligence, just my understanding from a similar situation I encountered not a hundred years ago. If Oz law is anything like UK in this respect, your offence is not only far from forgotten but could become a burden to your daughter, because as a general principle when you owe the taxman they get first bite at everything and in your case they have the resources and a juicy sitting target to aim at. 

Let's say your estate is that one property, to keep it simple and avoid confusion. 

Ok, so you die, and they discover your crime before your daughter gets the keys; now she's vulnerable because they have first bite on the property; if it means selling the property in order to get paid they could force a sale and your daughter loses not just costs + interest + penalties + whatever extras they can squeeze in, but there's little to stop them selling it cheap for a quick sale, thereby causing her to lose equity as well. There may be corruption involved on this route, but no spite or malice; they want their legal debt and don't care how they get it.

Same, but they discover the debt after your daughter has sold the property; wouldn't swear to it but the principle stands, and as it is her that owes them the money they could go after her, again with costs etc. 

Same, but before they discover the debt your daughter sells the property and leaves the country together with the money, leaving no assets behind. Little they could do in this case, but the liability isn't going anywhere, is likely growing, computers don't forget, and if/when she returns they will none too gently remind her of her (not yours) now larger debt. Unlikely that the debt would pass through to her next generation, but govs are increasingly desperate for money to burn so nothing would surprise me.

Easy to understand, they want their money.

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## Mendip

^ Yes, Jabir, the more I think about it, the more I want to legit on this.

With time, databases, both nationally or internationally are going to become more more linked and I think it will become easier and easier for governments to detect and chase unpaid debts.

I have certainly benefited income tax-wise from being a nomad for the past 30 odd years, but as you say, in this case there is a nice juicy chunk of capital sitting there which won't be going anywhere and is an easy target.

From what TizMe has input above, the property may already have been flagged as income generating, and it certainly would come under scrutiny for Capital Gains if I was to sell. 

And I just want peace of mind. To be honest the rental income (after outgoings) isn't huge and I don't think the tax bill will be onerous, but it's the interest and fines that may hike that up considerably.

I'm going to take professional advice as soon as possible to see what the likely outcome is, before proceeding with anything.

Thanks to everyone for the advice given.

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## petercallen

Just go to a Aussie accountant and get the real facts about your problem, you will be taxed at a flat rate of 32.5% on all capital gains and profit from renting the property
The ATO can find out everything about your dealings in Australia from any government department or bank etc and if you do not inform them and they find out themselves which happens all the time  you will get a very  large fine for tax evasion on top of the bill for tax owed

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## Mendip

^ Peter, yes thanks for that.

I was recommended a tax accountant and have sent all the details, rental statements, etc etc... and things are underway. Everything is quiet just now of course because of this coronavirus.

As usual, there are always unforeseen problems. In order to apply for a TFN I had to get two ID documents (passport and UK birth certificate) certified... and of course the only certifiers (?) they accept in Thailand are at the Aussie Embassy. That meant a trip down to Bangkok last week, all bars closed, however I did get some other stuff done.

Incidentally, it's a long way from finalised but the accountant is hopeful of having all fines waived and after the astronomical off-takes (strata fees in particular) there isn't so much profit to be taxed on.

Fingers crossed.

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## ootai

> ^ Peter, yes thanks for that.
> 
> As usual, there are always unforeseen problems. In order to apply for a TFN I had to get two ID documents (passport and UK birth certificate) certified... and of course the only certifiers (?) they accept in Thailand are at the Aussie Embassy. That meant a trip down to Bangkok last week, all bars closed, however I did get some other stuff done.



Mendip
When you went to Bangkok to the Aussie Embassy did you drive down?
Was the Embassy busy?

The reason I ask is the missus needs to get something certified to prove her ID so she can claim her Aussie superannuation before they (The fund) eat it all up in Insurance.

Cheers

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## Mendip

Ootai,

I need to leave the car at home, so I've got in the habit of taking a bus to Bangkok. Many have phone charging and wifi now, and to be honest it's a rare four hours to meself... and all for 206 Baht to Morchit!

I went down two weeks ago, the roads were pretty quiet but the bars were closed, pros and cons.

You have to book an appointment at the Aussie Embassy but if you go to their website it's all very easy to follow. Send an initial inquiry email and they respond with the various departmental options and means to book an appointment. It seemed to me that you can pick and choose, and when I got to the embassy it was deserted.

If you need any links, no problem. I would be a bit concerned travelling down there just now in case there will be a travel ban imposed... which is why I went two weeks ago;  I also stocked up on my daughter's meds.

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## Pragmatic

I thought the only people/department that can certify a translated copy of anything is the 'Ministry of Foreign Affairs'?

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## Dillinger



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## Mendip

> I thought the only people/department that can certify a translated copy of anything is the 'Ministry of Foreign Affairs'?


They weren't translated copies Prag, for me it was a case of getting copies of an original UK passport and an original birth certificate certified as true copies, as part of an application for an Aussie tax number. 

If I was elsewhere, a doctor, teacher, policeman etc etc could have certified the copies as genuine. 

It seems amazing, but other countries seem to don't trust Thais to certify these documents!

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## Mendip

^^ You're now definitely on Dan's list ya bugger. 

No rush...

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## Pragmatic

> it was a case of getting copies of an original UK passport and an original birth certificate certified as true copies


 And the only people I thought could do that was the MoFA. Every time I've had to get a 'certified copy' of anything had to be done that way.     :Confused:  

Hang on I think that for 'translated copies'.

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## Mendip

^ Thailand wasn't involved in this... it was UK documents being certified for Australian authorities.

It just happened that I live in Thailand so had to use the Aussie embassy.

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## Pragmatic

> hailand wasn't involved in this... it was UK documents being certified for Australian authorities.
> 
> It just happened that I live in Thailand so had to use the Aussie embassy.


 Sorry. I need to pay more attention to what the thread is about.

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## Mendip

As a footnote to this thread...

This forum never ceases to surprise me. A member very kindly put me in touch with an accountant based in Adelaide, and to cut a long story short I've just transferred under $8000 Aussie to the ATO to clear seven years of unpaid taxes. It is amazing how low a good accountant can get the tax liability. There were no fines and no accrued interest was charged... yeah, I find that hard to believe as well.

As I get older I've become a worrier and am gradually trying to remove any sources of stress from my life, many of which I couldn't have cared less about 10 years ago. This undeclared rent had been gnawing away at the back of my mind for several years and it feels good to get it sorted and be legit. Worth every cent!

Now I'm free to sell the apartment legitimately and stash the cash where it can't be found. Maybe I will be able to retire one day after all!

Many thanks ootai!


Right... what's next on my list...

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## AntRobertson

That's good, bet it's a relief too.

 :tumbs:

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## Mendip

^ It is a relief to be sure. 

I think all these things weighing on your mind can bring you down a bit. 

The one good thing (apart from finding Coco!) about Covid has been the time it's given me to sort stuff out.

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## Latindancer

Good onya, Mendip.

May you stash it wisely

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## Saint Willy

Onya mate

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## panama hat

Well done . . . Adelaide? Must have been the Ice-Man - nice

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## Chittychangchang

Nice one Mendip, I wouldn't sell it just yet.
Always good to have a bolt hole.

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## cisco999

> .
> (Um, just kidding in case someone is listening in)





Sorry,  It's already been recorded in 5 languages.                :sexy:

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