#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Thai Visas and Visa Runs >  >  No more Brit Embassy income certification letters!

## jabir

*From 1 January 2019, the British Embassy Bangkok will no longer be providing British Nationals with letters confirming their income. 

*
This letter has previously served as a supporting document for obtaining a Thai retirement or marriage visa. The British Embassy Bangkok is stopping the certification of income letters because it is unable to fulfil the Thai authorities’ requirements to verify the income of British Nationals.

British Nationals should now demonstrate that they have an amount of at least 800,000 THB in an account in Thailand for no less than three months prior to the visa application, or a monthly income of at least 65,000 THB transferred into an account in Thailand for a retirement visa. For a marriage visa, the amounts are 400,000 THB in an account in Thailand for no less than three months prior to the visa application, or a monthly income of at least 40,000 THB transferred into an account in Thailand. A bank statement should be used as the supporting document for obtaining a Thai retirement or marriage visa.

All British Nationals concerned should note that the last date for income letter applications is 12 December 2018.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/b...tent=immediate

Looks like another scam to feed well positioned officers of the law.

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## jabir

Should also result in more accounts being inexplicably drained by phantom withdrawals. Not pointing the finger at bank employees, they're well above suspicion.

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## Maanaam

> or a monthly income of at least 40,000 THB transferred into an account in Thailand. A bank statement should be used as the supporting document for obtaining a Thai retirement or marriage visa.


How long a history of that income is required? 
Lets take a first time application. Thai bank account set up and 40k deposited monthly for 3 months before application for visa. Visa granted. One year later, same thing.
Thus, the retiree/married guy only needs 120k per year to get a visa.
Sounds like a good thing for some people, IF the history of deposits is 3 months.
If the history of deposits needs to be longer, then it's going to be very impractical for first time applicants that don't have 800k/400k.

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## jabir

The money milking machine works best when fuzzy, allowing front line staff to decide whether to demand deposits for 3 months or 12.

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## Mandaloopy

What work do they actually do at the Brit Embassy? And how can I join the trough?!

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## Norton

Have yet to hear or read Thai Immigration no longer accepting embassy proof of income letters.

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## Pragmatic

Thai Visa forum allowed 26 post's on their thread and 


> This topic is now closed to further replies.


 No explanation as to why.

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## Pragmatic

> Have yet to hear or read Thai Immigration no longer accepting embassy proof of income letters.


It's the UK embassy who will not issue the said letter anymore

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## Norton

> It's the UK embassy who will not issue the said letter anymore


Hmmm...sounds like work avoidance.

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## Pragmatic

https://www.gov.uk/world/organisations/british-embassy-bangkok/office/consular-section. 




> I have just spoken with the Consular Division who, at first, had no knowledge of this change, but after I directed him to the correct website, that of the British Embassy, Bangkok, he confirmed it. He explained that





> it is the Thai Immigration Authorities who have changed it all.

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## Norton

Looks like Brits only option is to deposit 800k or 400k baht as per their status here.

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## jabir

Some say Cambodia is more welcoming and not puffed up with self importance.

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## Maanaam

> Looks like Brits only option is to deposit 800k or 400k baht as per their status here.


From what it sounds like in the report, it's everybody, not just Brits, because it's a Thai requirement.
And proof of income needs clarifying: what length of history does one require?

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## cyrille

> Some say Cambodia is more welcoming and not puffed up with self importance.


Not as many as say 'Hey, the whores are much cheaper here.'

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## PAG

From what I'm gleaning, it's Thai Immigration that have stated that they require actual proof of either the respective lump sums/monthly income credited into a Thai bank account.   This is not only for the UK expats, but all.   My guess is that there's a bit of brown nosing going on for the new boss (Big Joke), showing how diligent they are and how to make a name for themselves.   Let's give it a few weeks for the dust to settle.

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## Airportwo

> Looks like Brits only option is to deposit 800k or 400k baht as per their status here.


They used to charge 2,400 Baht for each letter so it is also avoiding what must have been a lucrative income.

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## Maanaam

> My guess is that there's a bit of brown nosing going on for the new boss (Big Joke), showing how diligent they are and how to make a name for themselves. Let's give it a few weeks for the dust to settle.


You could be right there.

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## jabir

> They used to charge 2,400 Baht for each letter so it is also avoiding what must have been a lucrative income.


Not half as lucrative as the 15-25k agents and immigration officers charge to bypass this 'immigration requirement'. Mind you, that's what someone else said, and I would never suggest they're a bunch of crooks.

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## Dragonfly

well, if that means less UK pensioners moving to Thailand, that's not a bad thing  :Smile: 

back to Spain or Portugal  :Smile:

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## PAG

> well, if that means less UK pensioners moving to Thailand, that's not a bad thing 
> 
> back to Spain or Portugal


It's ALL expats on Retirement/Marriage extensions, not only Brits.   The BE is just the first Embassy to issue the notice.

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## tomcat

> From what it sounds like in the report, it's everybody, not just Brits, because it's a Thai requirement.


...if that's the case, I'll get a year's worth of deposits printed out by my bank (for free) and submit that as proof of yearly income, thereby saving the theft of B1,600 for a notary stamp from the US embassy proof-of-yearly-income statement: sounds like a good deal...

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## Maanaam

> ...if that's the case, I'll get a year's worth of deposits printed out by my bank (for free) and submit that as proof of yearly income, thereby saving the theft of B1,600 for a notary stamp from the US embassy proof-of-yearly-income statement: sounds like a good deal...


Yep, that's what it sounds like. Half of one of your dinners  :Smile:  Bonus.
And to reiterate, a lot depends on what length of deposit history is required. If it's too long, it will make it impossible for new arrivals, if it's only 3 months (say) then they only need 120k per year and can sponge of the wife/live like a pauper/work under the table.

I don't think Big Joke has thought this through.

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## tomcat

> I don't think Big Joke has thought this through.


... :rofl: ...

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## jabir

> I don't think Big Joke has thought this through.


 :smiley laughing:

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## misskit

Social Security offers a letter of income verification online. I can’t imagine the Thai bureaucracy accepting a printout from a website, though. They need plenty of stamps and signatures of different colors on documentation.

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## Maanaam

> I can’t imagine the Thai bureaucracy accepting a printout from a website, though. They need plenty of stamps and signatures of different colors on documentation.


In triplicate. I think the colours are a big thing. Espeacially red.
(Reminds me...I went to a chemist shop to buy ibuprofen. He said he had these white ones or I could have the red ones. I asked what's the difference and he smiled and said, "Thai people think the red ones are better because they're red".)

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## Loy Toy

> It's ALL expats on Retirement/Marriage extensions


Great.

I have 3 Thai children I am caring for including education and upkeep!

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## Dragonfly

I thought you had a work permit, LoyToy, why would you need a retirement visa that forbids working ?

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## Loy Toy

> I thought you had a work permit


I do Butterbutt!

No retirement or marriage visa needed which in fact does not allow you to work here.

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## Norton

Will run this down tomorrow. Call friend in immigration and US embassy.

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## PAG

> I do Butterbutt!
> 
> No retirement or marriage visa needed which in fact does not allow you to work here.


I believe that you can get a work permit with a Marriage extension, though not with a Retirement one.

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## Loy Toy

> I believe that you can get a work permit with a Marriage extension, though not with a Retirement one.


All you need to do is prove you have Thai dependants (children) and you need to work to support them and if you are suitably qualified a work permit is not a problem.

No marriage or retirement visa required and at a fraction of the cost.

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## Pragmatic

> I would never suggest they're a bunch of crooks.


 I would.

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## Pragmatic

If all is true then I feel for yous that are genuine. But I have no sympathy for all those that pay agents/immigration under the table for their extensions. It is yous that make life difficult for us genuine expats. Now where's my beer?   :Smile:

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## lom

> It's ALL expats on Retirement/Marriage extensions, not only Brits.   The BE is just the first Embassy to issue the notice.


Is it? Be careful when jumping to conclusions..

https://teakdoor.com/thai-visas-and-v...ml#post3832125

There are the five countries whose embassies has issued income guarantee letters without requiring proof of the income.
Expats from other countries where the embassy has thoroughly checked the income before issuing the verification letter are as far as I understand not  affected.

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## Pragmatic

> where the embassy has thoroughly checked the income before issuing the verification letter


 And how do they 'check'? And how long do those checks take? Just wondering.  ::chitown:: 
For me having monies in the bank I have to have a bank letter obtained that day before obtaining my extension. How long do those that use their embassy get to provide their letter? If all things are equal it should be the same day as well.

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## HuangLao

> Some say Cambodia is more welcoming and not puffed up with self importance.



That's quickly changing. 
They're expected to resemble the draconian and repressive Thai policies before long.

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## Pragmatic

> I have 3 Thai children I am caring for including education and upkeep!


 There was an immigration visa extension in 2006 that gave you a 12 month stay based on 'support by a Thai child', no money to show. It was based on the Thai principle of 'your children supporting you' in old age. I actually obtained this visa but had to negotiate with the immigration officer after he said I had to show some money. Anyway they realised they'd fcuked up and cancelled the 'extension' in 2007.

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## tomcat

> Will run this down tomorrow. Call friend in immigration and US embassy.


...thanks!...

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## OhOh

> They need plenty of stamps and signatures of different colours on documentation.


^Highly likely .

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## jamescollister

> All you need to do is prove you have Thai dependants (children) and you need to work to support them and if you are suitably qualified a work permit is not a problem.
> 
> No marriage or retirement visa required and at a fraction of the cost.


Where is that, some years ago I tried for a child support extension of stay, Phi Bun.
No chance without a court order saying I had custody.

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## tomcat

...via ThaiVisa news feed:

British Embassy Bangkok to Stop Certification of Income Letters



From 1 January 2019, the British Embassy Bangkok will no longer be providing British Nationals with letters confirming their income.

This letter has previously served as a supporting document for obtaining a Thai retirement or marriage visa. The British Embassy Bangkok is stopping the certification of income letters because it is unable to fulfil the Thai authorities requirements to verify the income of British Nationals.

British Nationals should now demonstrate that they have an amount of at least 800,000 THB in an account in Thailand for no less than three months prior to the visa application, or a monthly income of at least 65,000 THB transferred into an account in Thailand for a retirement visa.

For a marriage visa, the amounts are 400,000 THB in an account in Thailand for no less than three months prior to the visa application, or a monthly income of at least 40,000 THB transferred into an account in Thailand. *A bank statement should be used as the supporting document for obtaining a Thai retirement or marriage visa.*

All British Nationals concerned should note that the last date for income letter applications is 12 December 2018.

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## Switch

The change in policy at the British Embassy, and the supposed crackdown by the new head of immigration are entirely separate issues.

The timing of these two announcements is coincidental.

The crackdown seems to be directed at certain nations who operate call Centre scams in the kingdom. See the recent arrest list for details of the usual suspects. They like to catch the odd criminal too.

Thai immigration may or may not accept your application for permission to remain in 2019. They may continue to demand supporting documentation from the Embassy. It affects British nationals only for now.

Either the Thai immigration rules will be changed or the embassy will be obliged to back down. There is no legal requirement for the embassy to provide the service.

I believe agents will continue to operate and this clusterfuck may even put more business their way. IOs make money and so do Thai nationals, so the chances of that being scrapped seem remote.

As a side issue, when I applied for a retirement visa in UK in 2015, the Thai Embassy was the only place authorized to do it. They required my proof of income, health letter and police report to be notarized.
Previously there were a number of UK consulates that were allowed to do new retirement visa applications.

The British Embassy is more of a trade mission these days and only core functions remain for consular officials to serve Brit nationals with basic legal functions. Visas are not one of those functions.

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## Pragmatic

> I believe agents will continue to operate and this clusterfuck may even put more business their way.


 We  will have to see.




> On the top of his list are agents who rip people off for visas. Visa agents, working with visa run companies and overseas embassies, have developed an elaborate system of fees and paybacks for preferred services.


 https://thethaiger.com/news/national...ration-top-job

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## harrybarracuda

> _On the top of his list are agents who rip people off for visas._


Presumably because he wants his share of the takings.

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## jabir

An anti-corruption drive imposes tighter regulations that can only lead to more corruption.

More at: couldntmakeitup.com

TiT

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## tomcat

...US Consulate visit this morning to notarize a proof-of-income statement: no word of any policy change concerning such documents there...I noticed the briefest eyeroll when I mentioned the Thai regulations...

Also overheard from the rather geriatric crowd in the Consulate waiting room: "I'm 76 and here I am with this baby. Don't know how it happened so quick."
After seeing Hillary on the wall-mounted TV: "There she is! What a monster!"
Two coffin-dodgers in line: "I'm disabled military and I'll be damned if I pay for any service here." (He paid)...
Two business-suited sophisticates: "Costa Rica is the place to retire. Thailand is what happens to folks who follow their dicks."...

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## Norton

> US Consulate visit this morning to notarize a proof-of-income statement: no word of any policy change concerning such documents there..


Same from 2 folks I called at embassy as well. No change. Never heard such noise from Thai Immigration. Just back from lunch with head of Roiet Immigration. They will continue to accept income letters.

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## Dragonfly

> ...US Consulate visit this morning to notarize a proof-of-income statement: no word of any policy change concerning such documents there...I noticed the briefest eyeroll when I mentioned the Thai regulations...
> 
> Also overheard from the rather geriatric crowd in the Consulate waiting room: "I'm 76 and here I am with this baby. Don't know how it happened so quick."
> After seeing Hillary on the wall-mounted TV: "There she is! What a monster!"
> Two coffin-dodgers in line: "I'm disabled military and I'll be damned if I pay for any service here." (He paid)...
> Two business-suited sophisticates: "Costa Rica is the place to retire. Thailand is what happens to folks who follow their dicks."...


awesome, it's like a live version of TD  :Smile:

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## jabir

> Same from 2 folks I called at embassy as well. No change. Never heard such noise from Thai Immigration. Just back from lunch with head of Roiet Immigration. They will continue to accept income letters.


If you got it from the top, I suspect they will continue to accept income letters only until the fatwa kicks in to become an official junta decree, from which time their only sensible option is to obey their democratically unelected leaders and start pocketing even more money through this latest anti-corruption stunt.

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## Norton

Yep. Roiet office will accept until they are told not to. Something that could happen tomorrow.

I am not a Brit so for the time being not my concern.

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## tomcat

...this just in: https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic..._campaign=news

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## OhOh

> They will continue to accept income letters.


They have in the past accepted an unverified income letter from the UK Embassy. Similar to the US. The UK Embassy has stated in future they will not be issuing an unverified income letter.  

Will a letter from my Thai wife be accepted?

IIRC the Thai Embassy in London required 3 months bank statements, when verified and stamped in red by a "notary public", to be supplied as financial proof for obtaining a visa. 

Presumably their is a Thai equivalent ?

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## Norton

> this just in


Typical TVF bullshit. The Brit embassy is out of line telling TVF same will apply at US embassy. If TVF wants to know US embassy policy going forward, ask them. Not the British embassy.

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## Norton

> Will a letter from my Thai wife be accepted?


Not unless she has the 'proper" assortment of stamps.  :Smile:

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## harrybarracuda

> Not unless she has the 'proper" assortment of stamps.


So you're saying a scrawled note with "My hubband good man, he have good heart" won't cut it?

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## tomcat

...visa renewal time this morning: neither the immi lady nor her superior knew anything about changes to proof-of-income statements. In fact, it hardly seemed they knew they were at work...

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## OhOh

> Not unless she has the 'proper" assortment of stamps.


No stamps, of any colour and I have inspected every nook and cranny.

I've just been awarded another year's sentence. I tried bribing the officers but they insisted the paperwork was just what they required. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Time to buy something valuable.

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## KWAN

I'm sure the answer is here somewhere but - when my Retirement Visa goes tits up next year - what Visa hoops do I have to jump though to stay her long time. ? Cheers.

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## tomcat

> what Visa hoops do I have to jump though to stay her long time


...just renew your retirement visa (on a yearly basis)...

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## Pragmatic

> when my Retirement Visa goes tits up next year -


 I_s that because you are one of many who need a 'embassy letter'?_

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## KWAN

> I_s that because you are one of many who need a 'embassy letter'?_


It is indeed.

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## Pragmatic

Hows about getting an under the table extension whereby you pay an agent to do it for you? Cost in Buriram 20,000 Baht, or 14,000 Baht in Jomtien, so I'm told. A marriage of convenience may help in that you only need to find 400,000 Baht a year.   :Smile:

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## KWAN

Anyone know of alleged agents here in Jomtien. ??
If I have to go back to Visa runs (no problem) Where do I start ? Leave country by air (Laos or Cam') and apply for tourist visa on arrival at Swampy.

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## OhOh

> what Visa hoops do I have to jump though to stay her long time.


Invest 5,000,000 THB, Thai citizenship or increasingly more doubtful , hide in the jungle or paddy wilderness.

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## headhunter

this could be for them on the monthly income 65,000bht. to be shown as per.statement from your thai bank,showing it every month,so the letter proving you have this amount will have to come from a THAI BANK at a considerable cost.i cant see any other way for those who go this rout.
yet it must still be cheaper than engageing a bent lawyer and a bent i.o. to stamp your extension of stay.

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## Switch

They have until October next year to sort out my next extension of stay on my retirement visa.

I am confident that is sufficient time to sort it out to my satisfaction.

For anyone else in a pickle over this bureaucratic malfunction, make sure you have a plan B.

Ive tried Cambodia, Philippines and Indonesia recently. Vietnam anyone?

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## headhunter

> They have until October next year to sort out my next extension of stay on my retirement visa.
> 
> I am confident that is sufficient time to sort it out to my satisfaction.
> 
> For anyone else in a pickle over this bureaucratic malfunction, make sure you have a plan B.
> 
> Ive tried Cambodia, Philippines and Indonesia recently. Vietnam anyone?


plan [b] there will be plenty of nigerians willing to lend 400k/800k as long as you pay them a FEE UP FRONT. :ourrules:

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## Pragmatic

> there will be plenty of nigerians willing to lend 400k/800k as long as you pay them a FEE UP FRONT.


 Have you a contact number? They're my plan B.  :Smile:

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## Seekingasylum

We need to hear from Toddanielz. 

I am somewhat non-plussed by the alleged fact the Embassy cannot verify income claims, the apparent reason given by them for ceasing the service. To my knowledge the british embassy officials in their consular section only issued the letter confirming income when the applicant produced original correspondence from the DWP and their occupational pension provider together with copies of bank statements showing the monthly payments into their respective accounts.
One wonders if there has been some communication foulup between the Be and the Thai.
The thing is like most here I have evidence of income meeting the criteria and transfer funds as and when necessary but the reality is that I simply do not need to transfer 800,000 baht a year to support myself and the wingman. We own our home and like many others we pay for big ticket items using our home credit cards paid out of home bank accounts. Ah well, everything else in the world is fucking up so why not here.

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## jamescollister

> The thing is like most here I have evidence of income meeting the criteria and transfer funds as and when necessary but the reality is that I simply do not need to transfer 800,000 baht a year to support myself and the wingman.


You don't need to transfer any money to Thailand, simply get your retirement processed in the Thai Embassy in the UK, good for near on 2 years.

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## Pragmatic

> We need to hear from Toddanielz.


 Tod is keeping a low profile it seems. There's been about 4-5 threads on the other forum since the news broke and he does't appeared to have posted on any.

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## PAG

> Tod is keeping a low profile it seems. There's been about 4-5 threads on the other forum since the news broke and he does't appeared to have posted on any.


Todd's good for real time info re Thai Immigration practices, however this is something specific to the British Embassy, and their arbitrarily ceasing to provide letters.

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## Switch

> We need to hear from Toddanielz. 
> 
> I am somewhat non-plussed by the alleged fact the Embassy cannot verify income claims, the apparent reason given by them for ceasing the service. To my knowledge the british embassy officials in their consular section only issued the letter confirming income when the applicant produced original correspondence from the DWP and their occupational pension provider together with copies of bank statements showing the monthly payments into their respective accounts.
> One wonders if there has been some communication foulup between the Be and the Thai.
> The thing is like most here I have evidence of income meeting the criteria and transfer funds as and when necessary but the reality is that I simply do not need to transfer 800,000 baht a year to support myself and the wingman. We own our home and like many others we pay for big ticket items using our home credit cards paid out of home bank accounts. Ah well, everything else in the world is fucking up so why not here.


Im pretty sure the British Embassy used a disclaimer when providing the letters to applicants in support of their extension application.
From what I have seen, the Thai immigration will only accept the supporting letter if the Embassy can verify it.
The Embassy is unwilling or unable to staff such verification, and have therefore withdrawn the service.

Over to the new chief of immigration, Big joke. He can back down and accept the present form of letter, (unlikely) or sit it out and see what happens next year.

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## tomcat

> the letter proving you have this amount will have to come from a THAI BANK at a considerable cost.


...Bangkok Bank provides a free yearly statement upon request that shows transfers into a local account for the previous 12 months...did I mention it's free and takes about 90 seconds to produce...they throw in a free envelope as well...

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## jabir

> Im pretty sure the British Embassy used a disclaimer when providing the letters to applicants in support of their extension application.
> From what I have seen, the Thai immigration will only accept the supporting letter if the Embassy can verify it.
> The Embassy is unwilling or unable to staff such verification, and have therefore withdrawn the service.
> 
> Over to the new chief of immigration, Big joke. He can back down and accept the present form of letter, (unlikely) or sit it out and see what happens next year.


This was covered in a similar thread, the Brit Embassy attest only that they have seen 'evidence' to support the itemised amount/s. When Pattaya was graced with a consulate, a key person witihn the establishment made no secret of the fact that anyone with a computer could produce an acceptable tenancy agreement as proof of income, and one could surmise that many did.

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## Pragmatic

> however this is something specific to the British Embassy


 I believe the US embassy has stopped the letter as well.

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## tomcat

> I believe the US embassy has stopped the letter as well


...if they have, it's still a secret...

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## Norton

> I believe the US embassy has stopped the letter as well.


They haven't and have no intent to do so.

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## tomcat

...that was the impression I got from a visit last Wednesday...

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## OhOh

> To my knowledge the british embassy officials in their consular section only issued the letter confirming income when the applicant produced original correspondence from the DWP and their occupational pension provider together with


Having just been through this annual farce l can add that the UK embassy accepted scanned images of all documents; application for income document, cc card authorisation, passport and pension confirmations.

All as attachments to an email. No visits and 6 working day return of the embossed, as immigration desired, document. 

Will it be as simple next October? If only Thai Immigration rules had the same clarity.

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## Pragmatic

> .if they have, it's still a secret..


 You need to get out more.




> *Asked if they were aware of action by other embassies the British Embassy Bangkok said:*
> _“Yes we are aware that the US embassy will also be stopping their notarised income letter.  Please contact them directly for further information”._


 https://thethaiger.com/news/national...income-letters

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## tomcat

...I wonder how the Brit spokesman became aware of such info?...

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## Switch

> You need to get out more.
> 
> https://thethaiger.com/news/national...income-letters


The BE have been very clever about this. They were told by Thai immigration that all proof of income had to be verified. Seeing an opportunity to shed costs, and staff, they jumped in with both feet.
The ball is now with Thai immigration. No idea what, if anything they will do about it, but if other embassys have been told the same, perhaps they  will realise sooner or later, the cost and legal implications for them will be significant.
Apparently there is no legal requirement for the embassy to provide this service.
Wait and see.  :Wink:

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## HuangLao

> They haven't and have no intent to do so.


Yep.
That's the understood standing update.

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## Dillinger

> You need to get out more.


Expect some friendly fire :Smile:

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## Dillinger

> I wonder how the Brit spokesman became aware of such info?..


I'd guess they probably socialise at the kind of restaurants you patronize :Smile:  at around 11am when they've finished work for the day

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## Pragmatic

> Expect some friendly fire


Blue on blue is common practice for Americans.   :UK:   ::spin::

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## bowie

First off, I’m on the so called “retirement” extension, lump sum THB 800k deposited at Bangkok Bank, so an “income verification letter” is of no consequence to me. 

The US Embassy provides affidavits – notarization of statements sworn by their citizens. The affidavits are sworn statements of *“facts”*. The only thing the US Embassy provides is notarization that a US Citizen swore under oath that the information contained in the affidavit is true. The US Citizen is under “penalty of perjury” if the statement(s) is/are false. Perjury is a felony and should not be taken lightly.  

From the US Embassy Website: Services we CAN provide: Affidavits

Please note the Embassy and Consulate CAN notarize an affidavit which may or may not satisfy the Thai requirement for “certification.”

An affidavit is a sworn statement of facts, made voluntarily, and confirmed by the oath or affirmation of the person making it. Please note that the Embassy and Consulate assume no responsibility for the truth or falsity of the representations that appear in the affidavit. Only the identity of the individual making the statement is validated.

Please see our commonly requested affidavits below and confirm in advance if the end recipient will accept an affidavit.
· Income Affidavit: (Attestation of monthly income, often required by Thai immigration)

From the affidavit form:
I also affirm that I receive a monthly income of $____________________ from sources in the United States. I am applying for a Thai visa/extension of a current Thai visa, and any assistance you can provide in this request will be greatly appreciated. The U.S. Embassy does not guarantee the contents of my own sworn statement. Under penalty of perjury, I assume full and complete responsibility for the veracity of the claims herein. 


I don't know for sure but assume the British Embassy takes a similar stance with their citizens. New rules, concerns, complaints, hoops-to-jump-through, all part of the game of being an expat. The British Embassy has announced that they intend to stop providing "Income Verification Letters", their business and up to them. I doubt the US Embassy will stop providing the "Income Affidavit". Up to the Thai Government if they will, or will not, accept an "Income Affidavit" from the US Embassy as an acceptable form for "proof of income". 

I doubt the US Embassy will change their operations in any way regardless of how loudly the Thai Government or the US Citizens whine and complain.

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## jamescollister

Think people may as well give up on this embassy letters for income,  sooner or later, evil things called computers have arrived, even in  Thailand.

Immigration can run a  check, world wide on credit.

I  know, that the UK, OZ and NZ welfare [pensions] and travel are all  hooked up by computer, don't know how many other countries are in the  scheme, but Thailand could be going on line with them.

Probably  no real benefit to Thailand money wise, but to other Governments  declaring income that you don't have is a crime and declaring income  that you do have, that is not taxed is a crime.

Death and taxes, you can't get away from them, if you are legal there is no problem.

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## tomcat

> Immigration can run a check, world wide on credit.


...*cough*...and how exactly would they do that?...ffs, I still have to hand draw a map to my condo for them...

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## Dillinger

> I am not a Brit so for the time being not my concern.


Then why have you chose for your username the name of  famous British motorbikes and a camp  Irish chat show host? :Smile:

----------


## Pragmatic

^
Maybe Mr Norton uses his surname as his forum name?

*Norton* is a surname with origin from the basic Early English _norþ 



			
				+ tun
			
		

_


> , meaning North settlement. There are many English villages called Norton or including Norton as part of the name, e.g. Midsomer Norton, Chipping Norton, Brize Norton etc. When surnames started to be used in the Middle Ages, a man from such a village might have the name


added e.g. Tom of Norton. Alternatively a man from the north side of any village might be given the name Tom Norton to distinguish him from a Tom from the south side. A secondary source for the surname is from the anglicisation of Celtic surnames. To confuse the situation further it is also sometimes found as a Jewish surname. The famous "Emperor Norton" in San Francisco was of Jewish origin from a South African settler family.

----------


## jamescollister

> ...*cough*...and how exactly would they do that?...ffs, I still have to hand draw a map to my condo for them...


Call BS on that, you have a condo, but don't know the address, how would you catch a bus. taxi if you don't know where.

Been here a long time, come and gone, back and forward and never heard of anyone drawing a map, Thais can't read a map to start with.

----------


## Pragmatic

> Thais can't read a map to start with.


I agree Thais can't read a map, but one of the conditions of a 'Marriage Extension' is you have to supply a hand drawn map of where you live relative to the immigration office. Yeah I know it's bollix but true.

----------


## Seekingasylum

> This was covered in a similar thread, the Brit Embassy attest only that they have seen 'evidence' to support the itemised amount/s. When Pattaya was graced with a consulate, a key person witihn the establishment made no secret of the fact that anyone with a computer could produce an acceptable tenancy agreement as proof of income, and one could surmise that many did.


Drivel. If a corresponding amount is not seen passing through their UK/Thai bank account on a monthly basis then a blind spasticated gerbil could twig it was bollocks.

----------


## Seekingasylum

> You don't need to transfer any money to Thailand, simply get your retirement processed in the Thai Embassy in the UK, good for near on 2 years.


Indeed, I rather think that may well prove a sensible course...........provided it is still available.

----------


## tomcat

> Been here a long time, come and gone, back and forward and never heard of anyone drawing a map


...CW, last Thursday: required to  draw a map to my condo to complete my retirement visa extension...I suspect there may be many other such events in all your comings and goings that you've not experienced...

----------


## Switch

Sadly, the FCO and the Embassy no longer have classically trained civil servants who can speak for hours without saying anything relevant or even vaguely scandalous. (Seeking ass is retired). Contemporary Public relations and media types have a lot to answer for when it comes to depth of perception. Thats how David Cameron started his silky ride to the top.

The BE spokesperson implicated the US consular services, little realizing that nations all have different ways and means of doing things. Im really surprised that Seeking ass hasnt issued a verbose response. He must be like a stunned mullet over this BE faux pas.

----------


## jabir

> Expect some friendly fire


Thais excel at that.

----------


## Norton

> Then why have you chose for your username the name of famous British motorbikes and a camp Irish chat show host?





> Maybe Mr Norton uses his surname as his forum name?


None if the above and nothing to do with the character on the Jackie Gleason show. Name was a shipmate of mine.

----------


## jabir

> Originally jabir:
> _This was covered in a similar thread, the Brit Embassy attest only that they have seen 'evidence' to support the itemised amount/s. When Pattaya was graced with a consulate, a key person witihn the establishment made no secret of the fact that anyone with a computer could produce an acceptable tenancy agreement as proof of income, and one could surmise that many did._





> Drivel. If a corresponding amount is not seen passing through their UK/Thai bank account on a monthly basis then a blind spasticated gerbil could twig it was bollocks.


Are you sure of that? I do hope you were just drunk or high when you posted. Otherwise, I suggest you inform the embassy that for at least the past 18 years they have been outfoxed by blind spasticated gerbils.

And before you dig deeper, please explain under what conditions you (or any other reasonable person) might expect staff at the embassy to tally the income letter application form with monthly amounts against the applicant's UK ( :smiley laughing: ) AND Thai  :smiley laughing: bank accounts. 

I repeat, the Brit embassy income certification letter attests to having seen 'evidence' (NOT proof) of the itemised amount/s. A tenancy agreement is viewed as 'evidence', a pension letter from DWP is viewed as 'proof'...figure out for yourself why the legal and practical needs for them to say 'evidence' instead of 'proof'.

----------


## Seekingasylum

Err, "evidence" is "proof" you jabbering buffoon. 
Bogus applicants purporting to earn a regular income from fabricated tenancies or other stratagems cannot succeed because bank statements fail to show corresponding deposits. The Australian and Irish embassies require their citizens to produce evidence of retirement income including bank statements before they issue their letters - in the case of the Irish embassy their guidance notes indicate six months of statements are required.
Evidently, the British consular staff are fucking their citizens over. No surprise there, they are all chocolate teapots and glass hammers whereas you are merely an idiot.

----------


## Switch

> Err, "evidence" is "proof" you jabbering buffoon. 
> Bogus applicants purporting to earn a regular income from fabricated tenancies or other stratagems cannot succeed because bank statements fail to show corresponding deposits. The Australian and Irish embassies require their citizens to produce evidence of retirement income including bank statements before they issue their letters - in the case of the Irish embassy their guidance notes indicate six months of statements are required.
> Evidently, the British consular staff are fucking their citizens over. No surprise there, they are all chocolate teapots and glass hammers whereas you are merely an idiot.


The Embassy has no legal obligation to provide this service. It is being withdrawn because immigration have moved the goalposts. It would be costly and time consuming, and in most cases, impossible for the embassy to verify income.
The data protection act prevents embassy staff from accessing personal financial data, even for verification purposes, you stupid, retired filing clerk.

----------


## Seekingasylum

Why do you morons write gibberish making daft assertions where there are no grounds supporting them. No legal basis my arse.

The Thai MFA liaising on behalf of the Immigration department entered some years ago into a protocol agreed with representative missions of foreign governments that they would accept attestations on income of their nationals resident in the Kingdom wishing to lodge visa extension applications dependent upon financial criteria. Most signed up to the memorandum of understanding and several, viz the Australians and the Irish, corroborate incomes by sight of bank statements. They agreed this because scrutiny of retirement pensions, incomes and annuities written in English, German, French and Italian by Thai immigration official on the frontline was fucking impossible in much the same way Western officials would find Thai documents indecipherable. You claim that such a process is costly and time consuming - the fucking fee paid by the applicant covers the expense but in truth the time it takes to examine the documentation in support, usually a matter of minutes, wouldn't tax a retard on some learning project although I accept it may well challenge the average TD dolt.

What fucking data protection act? You mofo twat, the fucking consular official affirms a punter's freedom to marry and in the case of divorced applicants or those who may be widowed fucking decree absolutes and death certificates are required. Aint' that a fucking breach of your confabulated notion of data protection. 

Fucking idiot.

----------


## tomcat

> you morons





> my arse





> average TD dolt





> You mofo twat





> Fucking idiot


...a confident debater...

----------


## Seekingasylum

I know my target audience.

----------


## Dragonfly

well, the new EU GDPR directive does have an impact on personal information access and retention by all organizations, commercial or non-commercial, and governmental

----------


## Seekingasylum

Indeed, but such constraints may be waived if the subject wishes to have the information disclosed for whatever reason deemed to be in their interests. However, in the specific case under current debate the various consular officials are not disclosing data but are merely confirming the fact that a putative applicant is in receipt of an income not less than X. 

Gormless TD twats are of course too stupid to comprehend that.

----------


## jabir

> Err, "evidence" is "proof" you jabbering buffoon. 
> Bogus applicants purporting to earn a regular income from fabricated tenancies or other stratagems cannot succeed because bank statements fail to show corresponding deposits.


No sir, evidence is not proof. Evidence can be weak, vague or otherwise inconclusive; proof is firm, something either is or it isn't. 

I have never, that is, never, submitted any Thai or UK banking docs to the embassy for my rental 'proofs' of income or pensions. The 'proofs' I submitted continuously over the past 13 years have comprised of a tenancy agreement and pensions, which happen to be genuine and therefore 'proofs' to me. However, these were not verified by the embassy, since they did not tally with banking docs which I have never submitted, and therefore the embassy rightly regard these docs as 'evidence', not 'proof'.   

Now I shall read the rest of whatever garbage/treasures you have dug up.




> The Australian and Irish embassies require their citizens to produce evidence of retirement income including bank statements before they issue their letters - in the case of the Irish embassy their guidance notes indicate six months of statements are required.


Did you strike oil, or is this a convenient distraction? We were discussing procedures at the Brit embassy, and you attempt to validate a rather foolish blunder by switching it to embassies of choice. 




> Evidently, the British consular staff are fucking their citizens over. No surprise there, they are all chocolate teapots and glass hammers whereas you are merely an idiot.


I'm sure that makes you right, in some distressed mind, somewhere; the evidence is above, as is the proof, eh?

----------


## Switch

> Why do you morons write gibberish making daft assertions where there are no grounds supporting them. No legal basis my arse.
> 
> The Thai MFA liaising on behalf of the Immigration department entered some years ago into a protocol agreed with representative missions of foreign governments that they would accept attestations on income of their nationals resident in the Kingdom wishing to lodge visa extension applications dependent upon financial criteria. Most signed up to the memorandum of understanding and several, viz the Australians and the Irish, corroborate incomes by sight of bank statements. They agreed this because scrutiny of retirement pensions, incomes and annuities written in English, German, French and Italian by Thai immigration official on the frontline was fucking impossible in much the same way Western officials would find Thai documents indecipherable. You claim that such a process is costly and time consuming - the fucking fee paid by the applicant covers the expense but in truth the time it takes to examine the documentation in support, usually a matter of minutes, wouldn't tax a retard on some learning project although I accept it may well challenge the average TD dolt.
> 
> What fucking data protection act? You mofo twat, the fucking consular official affirms a punter's freedom to marry and in the case of divorced applicants or those who may be widowed fucking decree absolutes and death certificates are required. Aint' that a fucking breach of your confabulated notion of data protection. 
> 
> Fucking idiot.


Au contraire my little servant. The BE have provided a service requested of them, by Thai immigration. Thai immigration is not satisfied  that income has been verified, due to the BE disclaimer.
It is not a legal requirement for the embassy to do anything that would leave them open to prosecution.

The service currently provided does not breach any laws. The requirements now expected by immigration need all applications tp be verified by the embassy. Given the legal minefield that would create for staff, its no surprise th embassy has refused to play ball.

All applications are different. Not everyone uses government pensions, be they DWP, CS or Armed Forces. Many rely on share income, rent and other means.

The data protection act requires permission for information to be provided. That often has to be obtained in writing from the applicant, and then confirmed in writing by the sponsor.
If I need to notify my pension provider of a change of address, it will only be accepted in writing.

How the fuck you made a career in CS is truly baffling, if you fail to see the implications of this going nuclear.

----------


## OhOh

My evidence to assist the UK embassy to issue it's letter consisted of scanned images of my passport, a DWP letter indicating my UK pension and some P60's, these are UK government issued annual statements indicating a persons income and Taxes. Each private pension company informs HMRC annually the amounts.

Both of them are UK government documents, as such the embassy would be seen to be suggesting they do not accept government documents as valid. If the UK government don't accept them why would the Thai government departments?

In addition a Thai bank letter and account passbook along with a hand drawn map and wife's housebook were requested. They did ask for another document, it may have been a "landlords" letter, but as I had given them photocopies of my wife's blue book and ID card they deemed them acceptable.

----------


## Seekingasylum

> No sir, evidence is not proof. Evidence can be weak, vague or otherwise inconclusive; proof is firm, something either is or it isn't. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure that makes you right, in some distressed mind, somewhere; the evidence is above, as is the proof, eh?


You gibbering retard, vide your dictionary.

----------


## Seekingasylum

Chas, I rather think you might be better engaging with something more in tune with your current level of evident dementia, like a fucking tree. 

Honestly, why do you fucking either with this forum. You really are more at home with the dickheads on Thaivisa.

----------


## tattooddude

> Err, "evidence" is "proof" you jabbering buffoon. 
> Bogus applicants purporting to earn a regular income from fabricated tenancies or other stratagems cannot succeed because bank statements fail to show corresponding deposits. *
> 
> The Australian and Irish embassies require their citizens to produce evidence of retirement income including bank statements before they issue their letters* - 
> 
> in the case of the Irish embassy their guidance notes indicate six months of statements are required.
> Evidently, the British consular staff are fucking their citizens over. No surprise there, they are all chocolate teapots and glass hammers whereas you are merely an idiot.


 .

Below is some information from the Australian Embassy website in Bangkok .

The Australian Embassy does not issue income letters. Our national  services include the witnessing of Australian statutory declarations for  Australian citizens

----------


## Dragonfly

> Chas, I rather think you might be better engaging with something more in tune with your current level of evident dementia, like a fucking tree. 
> 
> Honestly, why do you fucking either with this forum. You really are more at home with the dickheads on Thaivisa.


 :rofl:

----------


## jamescollister

> Below is some information from the Australian Embassy website in Bangkok .
> 
> The Australian Embassy does not issue income letters. Our national services include the witnessing of Australian statutory declarations for Australian citizens


Had a bit of a read up on that and don't see where it says a stat dec. needs to be witnessed by the embassy, anyone authorized can be the witness.

The list is long from cops, teachers, anyone employed for more than 5 years in a local, state or federal government.

UK the cost of a stat dec, without any other services is 5 pounds max, so from my reading, the stat dec can be got in OZ or the UK, or from a drunk cop on holiday.

----------


## jabir

> .
> 
> Below is some information from the Australian Embassy website in Bangkok .
> 
> The Australian Embassy does not issue income letters. Our national  services include the witnessing of Australian statutory declarations for  Australian citizens


SA says they do, and here's the 'proof', er, or is that 'evidence'?




> *The Australian and Irish embassies require their citizens to produce evidence of retirement income including bank statements before they issue their letters -*


SA: I shouldn't be asking you since English is clearly not your native tongue, but in your esteemed view would a stat dec be 'proof' or 'evidence'?

----------


## headhunter

In addition a Thai bank letter and account passbook along with a hand drawn map and wife's housebook were requested. They did ask for another document, it may have been a "landlords" letter, but as I had given them photocopies of my wife's blue book and ID card they deemed them acceptable.[/QUOTE]
that is all that is needed, all witnessed and verified by an HONEST LAWYER. :UK:

----------


## Switch

> Chas, I rather think you might be better engaging with something more in tune with your current level of evident dementia, like a fucking tree. 
> 
> Honestly, why do you fucking either with this forum. You really are more at home with the dickheads on Thaivisa.


You have given no proof or evidence that your assertions are correct and mine are wrong.
All you can do is make personal attacks against your critics. That is not regarded as proof or evidence. Its just your silly opinion as usual. 
You believing that you are infallible does not count either you supercilious prick.

----------


## jabir

You shouldn't be using such long words, he's a bit weak on English, next time try something like arrogant, haughty, conceited, pompous, patronising, snooty, smug, or sneering.

----------


## Switch

> You shouldn't be using such long words, he's a bit weak on English, next time try something like arrogant, haughty, conceited, pompous, patronising, snooty, smug, or sneering.


I'm sure he can google prick if he needs to know what it means.

----------


## OhOh

#119 HH

True if you are just relying on the 8,000,000 in your Thai bank account. However if you are utilising the, currently acceptable "combined" cash + pensions route, "some acceptable" and Thai Immigration defined "agent" has to verify the pensions portion. That "agent" has yet to be announced.

The UK Embassy was that agent but has now announced they, for whatever reason, will no longer offer that particular service.

----------


## KWAN

_That "agent" has yet to be announced_.
I Like  - very interesting. ! :Smile:

----------


## headhunter

for them that are concerned go to,
http://WWW.GOV.UK/GOVERNMENT/NEWS/BR...rtification-of income-letters

----------


## KWAN

Link not working properly. !

----------


## Pragmatic

> for them that are concerned go to,
> http://WWW.GOV.UK/GOVERNMENT/NEWS/BR...rtification-of income-letters


 Try this site but I think it needs updating?   https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ai-immigration

----------


## headhunter

i got this from an update about 30mins.ago from another planet.
it was from SARAH PETH deputy consul & head of operations.
one part of her reply was,thai immigration would except what is required for an extension of stay.would be a letter of proof of income from your THAI BANK.
that would be the only way that immigration can get your income details IN A THAI BANK PASSBOOK.

----------


## bowie

to the Brits - well folks, after reviewing the link, you certainly do have my sympathy. 

Good Luck to all those affected, hopefully a relatively quick and not so painful resolution will appear.

----------


## headhunter

i have my extension 800k.in a fixed acc.that hasnt been touched for 6yrs.yet they ask to see what we are living on,we have a different acc.for living exs.and also shows it being transfered from the uk.once a yr.
so all you guys that go the income way of doing an extension should have NOTHING to worry about,that is if you are HONEST.

----------


## Pragmatic

> i have my extension 800k.in a fixed acc.that hasnt been touched for 6yrs.yet they ask to see what we are living on,we have a different acc.for living exs.and also shows it being transfered from the uk.once a yr.


 I do the same as you Headhunter. But the thing that clogs their brain is 'how can you live here if the money is in a fixed term account?' I have to show, even though it's not part of the proceedure, my current bank account book. Their suspisions are they think I'm working here. Yeah for 400 Baht a day.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## headhunter

> I do the same as you Headhunter. But the thing that clogs their brain is 'how can you live here if the money is in a fixed term account?' I have to show, even though it's not part of the proceedure, my current bank account book. Their suspisions are they think I'm working here. Yeah for 400 Baht a day.


i am one of the lucky one's that planned well ahead before moving here,by putting our living exs.into a thai bank 1yr.in advance.so when i show them this acc.showing a monthly withdrawn amount,there is smiles allround :Smile:  along with the change of 100bht.TIPP.

----------


## Pragmatic

> i am one of the lucky one's that planned well ahead before moving here,


I could have gone done the embassy route but it all looked a load of bollix to me.  And I hate the thought of having to go to BKK every year. Where do/did the guys that do their embassy letter get their monies to buy their cars, M/C, house etc if they struggle for dosh?

----------


## headhunter

i to find it strange when brit.expats have to go down the monthly income route.
the marriage route is not that bad as only 400k.bht has to be shown,but as the above post,where did they get the millions from in the first place,then that has left them in LIMBO with no back up if all goes belly up,as there has been many who have found out THAI CULTURE.
the retirement route is more or less bad planning also,65k.a month is 1,520gbp.spread over a month comes to 16,250bht a week.living exs.they must have a very very big family or a big THAI OVERDRAFT.
if what is doing the rounds right now,expats only have to produce proof of a thai bank acc. showing their income amount being transfered from the uk.monthly then that should be easier than the embassy route.the only [not a problem] is what if any fee's that the banks or immigration will want.
as living in Thailand is no longer cheap cheap I can only see it getting worse for them with no back up funds.for over 35yrs.i have paid my fair share of tax and other expenditure but we are still treated like NOBODY'S.

----------


## Pragmatic

> i have paid my fair share of tax and other expenditure but we are still treated like NOBODY'S.


 The Thai national anthem says it all: 'Thailand is for Thais'.

----------


## tomcat

> The Thai national anthem says it all: 'Thailand is for Thais'.


...I wonder if there's a national anthem that praises foreigners and welcomes them to the home country...

----------


## Switch

> ...I wonder if there's a national anthem that praises foreigners and welcomes them to the home country...


It’s called Australia mate.

----------


## Norton

> ...I wonder if there's a national anthem that praises foreigners and welcomes them to the home country...


Jose can you see by the...........

----------


## OhOh

> would be a letter of proof of income from your THAI BANK.



Which adds nothing.

What evidence would the "Thai Bank" require for them to issue the "letter of proof of income" letter? 

1. A deposit of THB 800,000 arriving, out of the blue and staying in ones Thai bank account 3 months prior to extension application? 

(This requires "access" to THB 800.000 for a 3 month period.) If "borrowed" the cost of THB 800,000 @ 3%/month is THB 72,000)

2. A deposit of THB 400,000 arriving, out of the blue and staying in ones account 3 months prior to extension application along with 2, 3 or 4 .... official letters from from some currently undefined "source" equalling indicating an annual income  THB 400,000? 

(This requires "access" to THB 400.000 for a 3 month period and some "official" letters.  If "borrowed" the cost of THB 400,000 @ 3%/month is THB 36,000)

3. A deposit of THB 0 in ones account prior to extension application along with 2, 3 or 4 .... official letters from  from some currently undefined "source", indicating an annual income equalling THB 800,000? 

(This requires "access" to some "official" letters.)

A supplier of some "official looking letters" seems be the most lucrative of the 3 options. Access to the clients overseas annual income data, access to an on call helicopter and pilot, who knows the "backdoors" into Laos and a big red stamp is of course necessary.

Until the supplier of the "official looking letters" is arrested for forgery and all those who used the supplier are given 1 day to leave the country and a 10year ban from re-entering.

 :Smile:

----------


## OhOh

> And I hate the thought of having to go to BKK every year.


Is now not necessary,until the issuance stops of course.

----------


## OhOh

> have to produce proof of a thai bank acc. showing their income amount being transfered from the uk.monthly


Where is the Thai Immigration document which says the income has to be from a foreign source and transferred on a monthly basis?

Income  maybe derived externally or internally within Thailand. Some   here on TD  may have "investments" spread around the world. Dividends,   trading etc  would not necessarily be obtained monthly. The required   sum, sitting in a  Thai bank, is only required for a three month   seasoning period.

Some want a greater return than the 2-5% annual interest, Thai banks offer.

----------


## OhOh

> It’s called Australia mate.


Not quite. 

"For those who've come across the seas 
We've boundless plains to share;"


Only if you are of the "right type".


 source: Australia National Anthem Lyrics

----------


## Pragmatic

> I wonder if there's a national anthem that praises foreigners and welcomes them to the home country...


 Google is yer friend.   :Smile:

----------


## Pragmatic

> I wonder if there's a national anthem that praises foreigners and welcomes them to the home country...


 Try the USA but not in the NA.




> Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
> With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
> Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
> A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
> Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
> Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
> Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
> The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
> “Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
> ...


 https://qz.com/898486/give-me-your-t...nd-immigrants/

----------


## Neverna

> “Give me your tired, your poor,
> Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
> The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
> Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
> I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”


President Trump has threatened to send troops to the southern border to prevent a tired, poor, huddled mass of people 'yearning to breathe free' from entering the USA. Perhaps Trump should take a visit to the Statue of Liberty.

----------


## Pragmatic

> President Trump has threatened to send troops to the southern border


 Trumps not the first president to want to build a/the wall. Didn't see anyone kicking up shit then.




> In the United States, President Bush signed legislation to build a wall. This bill was voted for by a majority of Democrats including Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton…

----------


## tomcat

> but not in the NA


...*cough*...my question concerned the national anthem...

----------


## Pragmatic

> ...*cough*...my question concerned the national anthem...


 And I happily admitted that.   :UK:

----------


## tomcat

...and it is your happiness that continues to inform this thread...

----------


## headhunter

"


> ...I wonder if there's a national anthem that praises foreigners and welcomes them to the home country...


yes there is T. its called "LAND OF HOPE AND GLORY' "COME AND GET IT" "MONEY MONEY MONEY" THATS WHAT I WANT.

----------


## tomcat

...I see some folks are challenged by the notion of "national anthem"...

----------


## bowie

Well, well, well... 

just got this via email


Message for U.S. Citizens:
U.S. Mission in Thailand to Cease Providing Income Affidavit
Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2018 10:13 am

As of January 1, 2019, the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok and the U.S. Consulate General in Chiang Mai will cease to provide the income affidavit for the purpose of applying for Thai retirement and family visas and will not notarize previous versions of the income affidavit.  The Royal Thai Government requires actual verification of income to certify visa applicants meet financial requirements for long-stay visas.  The U.S. government cannot provide this verification and will no longer issue the affidavits.

Please consult the Royal Thai Embassy in Washington, D.C. and Royal Thai Immigration Bureau websites for information on how to meet the requirements for a Thai retirement visa or extension.

----------


## Norton

Beginning Jan 1 2019 the US Embassy will no longer issue income affidavit.

https://th.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen...taries-public/

----------


## bowie

Well, well, well, there definitely is a "*New Sheriff in Town*"...

Pol Maj Gen Surachate Hakparn took command early this month and he ain’t wastin’ any time. It does appear that he’s a “by-the-booker” and is cleaning up a system ripe with "corrupt practices". I wish him luck.

On a personal note I certainly, hope it continues. Immigration for all should and will be much easier if “by-the-book” principals are applied and enforced, take out all the subjective “what-ifs” out of the equation, when the rules are implemented, known and enforced without prejudice life is much simpler for all involved.

----------


## kjun12

This starter before Surachate took office.

----------


## Pragmatic

> when the rules are implemented, known and enforced without prejudice life is much simpler for all involved.


 When the rules are implemented immigration officers will no longer be getting the kick backs they bend over backwards to get, and life will not be 'simpler for all involved'. You get a better service at immigration if you're not legit. is my experience.

----------


## Pragmatic

> This starter before Surachate took office.


 True. According to the UK embassy this has been discussed since MAY. If I recall correctly.

----------


## david44

Ya dong counselling for distressed Americans , petting cats dogs and bitches apply cowboy style

----------


## bowie

discussions mean naught - "enforcement" is all that counts. 

Quite coincidental that the Brit and US Embassy's both uhm... "decided" not to confirm monthly incomes in the month of October 2018, quite coincidental the Hakparn took office in the beginning of October 2018. Similar to the Iranians suddenly deciding to release the US Hostages the day Regan got elected, yup, coincidental. 

I've always found that if you are legit you don't have to worry about getting service - been dealing with "situations" for a long, long time. Being legit provides the "big stick", speaking softly does matter, but, provided you are legit, follow the proper channels, and, document interactions, the system works. Accountability matters, taking names matters, and, presenting yourself in a no-nonsense polite businesslike manner, works.  

The "comfortable" niche of paying for "services" promote corruption and con artists. Accepting the "this is the way it done" is counterproductive. Somewhat along the lines of "if you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem".

Well, so much for soapboxing this issue.

 :Sorry1:

----------


## Switch

If the embassies are not going to verify income, then who do you think will be expected to bear this burden?

Will it be a pot luck system applied by an immigration service that is rapidly burying itself in paperwork, or will the onus for verification move to the applicant?

I have a good idea who will carry the can for this.

----------


## tomcat

> who do you thing will be expected to bear this burden?


...the "burden" for many will be a trip to their bank branches to obtain a stamped print-out of the previous year's monthly deposits (fee: B100) as opposed to visiting the US Embassy and waiting for an hour or so among mostly Trump-saturated rabble for a notarized document (fee: B1,500)...It's a change for the better for those of us who are legit...

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## OhOh

Are you suggesting that one of Lizzie's diplomats actually told the truth?

One hopes the Thai Immigration leader will publish his "requirements" in a timely manner. 3 months before they become law.

----------


## headhunter

> If the embassies are not going to “verify” income, then who do you think will be expected to bear this burden?
> 
> Will it be a pot luck system applied by an immigration service that is rapidly burying itself in paperwork, or will the onus for verification move to the applicant?
> 
> I have a good idea who will carry the can for this.


I would think where ever your pensions,income or whatever has got to be paid into somewhere,wether its a bank in Thailand or bank in the uk.so my thinking would be is that a bank statement should be sufficient showing it.
when I look at my acc.on line,my pension [uk] always say's ex.amount paid in by provider.

----------


## Norton

The affidavit is valid for 6 months so if one want's the affidavit route and your extension to stay is due within 6 months of affidavit receipt, then you are good to go.




> the "burden" for many will be a trip to their bank branches to obtain a stamped print-out of the previous year's monthly deposits


Or simply this to show monthly income of at least 65k baht.

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## OhOh

That is one route, but who will verify the many different types of bank statements? Many of which can be downloaded via the internet.

The UK Thai Embassy demands any bank statements, for a Thai visa, be "verified" by a UK Notary and embossed with their very impressive bright red, seal of office.

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## OhOh

> to show


That of course demands the published statement of "what will be acceptable", at the local Thai Immigration officers.

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## Norton

> who will verify the many different types of bank statements?


Your local Thai bank as always accepted by Immigration. UK or US law does not apply.




> That of course demands the published statement of "what will be acceptable", at the local Thai Immigration officers


Always the case so check. I have already checked and for Roiet a 1 year bank statement from my Thai bank is what they will accept.

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## OhOh

> 1 year bank statement from my Thai bank


Which will show a particular officer at a particular office what?

1. Twelve payments into a Thai bank, from an unknown source, equalling or exceeding the requested amount?

2. Twelve payments into a Thai bank, from an foreign source, equalling or exceeding the requested amount?

3. One payment in to a Thai bank, from an unknown source, equalling or exceeding the requested amount, 3 months before the visa extension renewal?

4. One payment in to a Thai bank, from an foreign  source, equalling or  exceeding the requested amount, 3 months before the visa extension  renewal?

5. Nine payments into a Thai bank, from an unknown source, plus One payment in to a Thai bank, from an unknown source, equalling or exceeding the requested amount?

6. Nine payments into a Thai bank, from an foreign  source, plus One  payment in to a Thai bank, from an foreign  source, equalling or  exceeding the requested amount?

Although I haven't found any statement demanding any, "foreign" source requirement, of "income" on Thai Immigration sites local or foreign. If you have please let me know. Presumably any foreigners selling rubber etc. from "their" farms (true or imaginary) can include that income in their extension application?

Probably other methods as well.

What if the particular officer that confirmed the method, to you, is transferred, retires etc., will his/her interpretation be followed or reinterpreted?

As evidenced at my last renewal. After explicitly asking what was required and having it confirmed by the two on duty officers.

When I returned a month or so later for an extension based on retirement, not marriage, I was asked for two more pieces of evidence. 

One a new form to be completed I believe a lease/evidence of address, requested by another new to me officer. This was retracted when copies of the house blue book and my Thai wife's ID card, both signed, were presented, as previously agreed. A copy of my Thai marriage certificate, previously not requested and similarly retracted.

That is the real experience for many who may not know the current Thai Immigration head honcho.

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## Pragmatic

Do you not have to have the letter from the Thai bank signed on the day of your immigration visit?

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## Norton

> Which will show a particular officer at a particular office what?


In my case the Roiet immigration office. A stamped bank statement showing an average of at least 65k baht per month over a 1 year period. 

In your case best inquire.

Source of income irrelevant.

----------


## bowie

On the income verification subject – it is apparent we are entering the adjustment/transition period. 

From the US Embassy news: 

“We will continue to notarize income affidavit forms through the end of 2018. Thai Immigration Bureau officials confirmed that they will support early visa renewals for U.S. citizens during the transition period. The income affidavits are currently valid for six months.”

I read this as fair warning you have a grace period to get your annual visa renewed, then, you need to get legit in documentation of your income meaning your monthly deposits into the Thai Bank.

Makes for an interesting grey area concerning the “monthly income”. During my legal  investigation concerning non O requirements, due to the importance of our retirement in Thailand transition, especially concerning the large sums of money involved, specifically housing sale and purchase I do use a Thai Lawyer (yes, a real live licensed Thai Attorney – copy of his law license in hand and in my files) when I discussed with him the monthly income route (a few years ago so not valid now), his professional opinion was that, [setting up automatic withdrawals from my brokerage firm controlled IRA’s did not qualify] to expand, I want as little cash tied up in Thailand as possible, I want my money invested in my retirement portfolio in the USA. Ln my Thai Attorneys professional opinion, an IRA plan does not meet the definition of a pension plan, and would not be accepted. Now, that was a few years ago and that was his specific statement. 


For those who previously used the income affidavit, looks like you have one more renewal (or early renewal), allowing time to get the THB 65k, or THB 40k monthly deposits initiated. Don’t know for sure but I expect Thailand is going to demand to see a full years, or almost a full year of monthly deposits, documented to qualify for your next extension. Or of course, the THB 800k or THB 400k lump sum.

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## tomcat

^...I think you're making this more complicated than it has to be...as long as B65K or more is deposited monthly for a year, the Thai government, as previously stated, has no interest in knowing (or investigating) what the source is...

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## bowie

> ^...I think you're making this more complicated than it has to be...as long as B65K or more is deposited monthly for a year, the Thai government, as previously stated, has no interest in knowing (or investigating) what the source is...


No, I'm not making it complicated, just providing my Thai Lawyers interpretation from a few years ago. Not valid now. If it becomes accepted practice that the deposits just have to be regular and a Thai Banks certification is adequate well, thats works out great for me. Means I get to release THB 800k that I now have tied up and idled earning not much of anything. 

But, do we have anything formal from the Thai Government that they don't care where the funds are from?

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## Dragonfly

just do 800k transfer every year, use the money across the year, and then do another transfer

quite simple, always worked before

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## Norton

> always worked before


And still does as does the 65k per month income route.
For those who would rather not have 800k baht in bank the issue now is what immigration will accept to meet the 65k per month option.

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## Norton

> do we have anything formal from the Thai Government that they don't care where the funds are from?


To date no. Only an income of 65k per month.

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## Norton

> A property in your name will suffice once you have a land office value of above 800k


...err...no. Nothing to do with income requirement for extension to stay.

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## bowie

"A property in your name will suffice once you have a land office value of above 800k" - don't think so... that would make a ton of falang condo owners happy... my car would qualify money wise...

trying to convince immigration that a valuable piece of property would suffice, well that would take a most talented salesman. I couldn't do it.

However - fact, foreigners cannot own land in the country of Thailand... several hoops or loopholes to try and get around that law, forming a business (must be Thai controlled 51%), falang owning the house and leasing the land owned by Thai... from my understanding none has made it through the Thai courts beneficial to the foreigner. But, I don't know Thailand legal history. 

For the most part I have found Thailand to be fair and unbiased when dealing with the Thai bureaucracy, however, I also have found many individual Thai "bad eggs" who will take advantage of foreigners... you must use common sense and keep yourself safe. I have quite a large extended Thai family with some pretty intelligent and smart individuals admininstrating the group, they do take care of me, so, I'm in great shape over here.  

But, I'll let the Attorney take care of the "critical" issues and questions. That's what I hired him for.

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## HuangLao

> To date no. Only an income of 65k per month.



Nor such income/monetary claims have to be "proved" or documented - as you say.....to date.

A lot of misinformation, false rumours, and general anxious paranoia is surfacing per subject matter. 

If one is not sure of specific info and updates, best to check and research all appropriate contacts and places.

----------


## bowie

> Trusting a sensible and honest Thai is the best of all options.


Roger that... it is their country, they do thing their own way, there are "things" they do that confound us no end... "TIT" but, for the most part you're far better off accepting or ignoring their "unique customs and traits" it is their country after all. They made the bed, if you're fortunate, it'll be comfortable enough for you.  

Most of us are here by choice...

----------


## OhOh

> deposits just have to be regular


What pray tell is "regular"? 

Weekly, monthly, annually, undetermined, from both foreign and local sources? I personally have monthly, annually and irregular - pensions, dividends, asset/product sales/purchases spread out over a whole year.

The amount requested is, I believe, an annual sum of "income". When and where received from, is not specified.

==================================================  ==================================================

OhOh Financial Consulting will knock up, including multiple coloured stamps for a nominal western price your desired,verified spreadsheet.  

PM with your details, bank account numbers, passwords and desired "visible amounts" etc.

Fully bonded in an obscure Taiwanese, Philippine, Vietnamese, Malay mainland village or South China Sea island of choice. Visible links to International Banking Institutions available at extra, extra cost.

Your financial security is uppermost in our company's executive's mind 24/7. (grandes vacances dans des circonstances exceptionnelles).

==================================================  ==================================================

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## bowie

In my discussions with my Attorney concerning the THB 65k monthly income. The criteria mentioned on the Thai Immigration Website (Thai Language) did, in my Attorneys words define the income as a "pension". My desire of qualifying by having automatic withdrawals from my broker controlled IRA did not qualify as it did not fit whatever their definition of a "pension" was. I suggested a formal letter guaranteeing the automatic withdrawals and that was also rejected as unacceptable.

Now, to amplify, this discussion was a few years ago - things were different, and, this was a general discussion of my "options". In the end my discussion was it made more sense to just deposit the lump sum in a Thai Bank, path of least resistance and success guaranteed. If they refused to accept my automatic IRA withdrawals it would have been "inconvenient" and disrupted my forward plans. Not seriously, but, inconveniently, so I did not pursue it. Call me lazy.

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## HuangLao

> In my discussions with my Attorney concerning the THB 65k monthly income. The criteria mentioned on the Thai Immigration Website (Thai Language) did, in my Attorneys words define the income as a "pension". My desire of qualifying by having automatic withdrawals from my broker controlled IRA did not qualify as it did not fit whatever their definition of a "pension" was. I suggested a formal letter guaranteeing the automatic withdrawals and that was also rejected as unacceptable.
> 
> Now, to amplify, this discussion was a few years ago - things were different, and, this was a general discussion of my "options". In the end my discussion was it made more sense to just deposit the lump sum in a Thai Bank, path of least resistance and success guaranteed. If they refused to accept my automatic IRA withdrawals it would have been "inconvenient" and disrupted my forward plans. Not seriously, but, inconveniently, so I did not pursue it. Call me lazy.



Bowie, have a look at the US Embassy-BKK/US Consulate-CM websites.
Updated info [today] that might be helpful.

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## misskit

What a pain in the butt. About the time I move that much money into a Thai bank, the baht will collapse again. 

Been burnt once already!

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## bowie

HuangLao -

I did check out the US Embassy info, I'm registered with them, they sent me email notification this AM. They're pretty much joining the British in not providing income info for Thai visa extension requirements starting 01JAN19, hmm... same date that the Brits are ceasing? must be a coincidence. 

Anyway, it'll be up to the Thai's to provide foreigners with details as to what will be considered "certification" of monthly income. It's their country, up to them. I'm just sharing info concerning my experiences with a Thai Attorney concerning the same or at least similar questions a few years ago. A few years ago his professional opinion or interpretation of the written Thai Immigration requirements revolved around what qualified as a "pension". When he spoke of US citizens his provided acceptable included social security or DOD aka military pensions and US federal government employees pensions. His opinion was that IRA's, 401k's or basically any personally controlled retirement plan did not qualify as a pension. That was his opinion a few years ago. 

On the basis of his opinion, when I made the move I deposited THB 850k, the minimum required amount plus a safety cushion. It's been sitting there doing nothing more than qualifying for my extensions. No big deal - it's done, it's over. It is an issue I'll never have to address or lose sleep over. As has been stated - "carefree retirement life" no worries, no deadlines, no milestones, empty bucket list, yup, life is good.  

Just sharing info (aged) but, still food for thought. You know, you've been on TD a long, long time. To many members this is a significant issue.

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## bowie

> Been burnt once already!


misskit - simple solution - never leave

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## Norton

> What a pain in the butt. About the time I move that much money into a Thai bank, the baht will collapse again. 
> 
> Been burnt once already!


Exactly the reason I have never went the 800k in bank route. The least amount required has always been the route I have taken. In the 15 years doing extension to stay, never once asked source of income.

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## HuangLao

> HuangLao -
> 
> I did check out the US Embassy info, I'm registered with them, they sent me email notification this AM. They're pretty much joining the British in not providing income info for Thai visa extension requirements starting 01JAN19, hmm... same date that the Brits are ceasing? must be a coincidence. 
> 
> Anyway, it'll be up to the Thai's to provide foreigners with details as to what will be considered "certification" of monthly income. It's their country, up to them. I'm just sharing info concerning my experiences with a Thai Attorney concerning the same or at least similar questions a few years ago. A few years ago his professional opinion or interpretation of the written Thai Immigration requirements revolved around what qualified as a "pension". When he spoke of US citizens his provided acceptable included social security or DOD aka military pensions and US federal government employees pensions. His opinion was that IRA's, 401k's or basically any personally controlled retirement plan did not qualify as a pension. That was his opinion a few years ago. 
> 
> On the basis of his opinion, when I made the move I deposited THB 850k, the minimum required amount plus a safety cushion. It's been sitting there doing nothing more than qualifying for my extensions. No big deal - it's done, it's over. It is an issue I'll never have to address or lose sleep over. As has been stated - "carefree retirement life" no worries, no deadlines, no milestones, empty bucket list, yup, life is good.  
> 
> Just sharing info (aged) but, still food for thought. You know, you've been on TD a long, long time. To many members this is a significant issue.



Seems as if we all received the same official email.
To be expected.

All this unnecessary angst aside, there are manners and procedures that one can proceed along without the so called officaldom and certified documentation -
If one knows how to work through the Thai loopholes. 

Much ado about nothing.

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## HuangLao

> Exactly the reason I have never went the 800k in bank route. The least amount required has always been the route I have taken. In the 15 years doing extension to stay, never once asked source of income.



Yep...

 :Smile:

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## jamescollister

Don't use Embassy letters, but had a read up on the subject, seems  although a stat dec from the Embassy, UK, OZ etc was excepted, a stat  dec from anyone else, authorized to sign them was not.

Embassy is/was acting as an agent for the Thai immigration and were supposed to have verified the income.

Embassies  are not the only ones authorized to give income verification  certificates, my accountant, boss of the company can issue a income  verification letter.

Been our company accountant, or should I say  we have used his company for 12 years, long story, never see the guy,  we pay him and we pay taxes on a limited company that makes no money,  asset rich, but turn over poor.

Wife tells me he can get me a retirement visa, W/P etc and I don't need to do anything, just drop my passport into the office.

Nothing  to disbelieve as the company represents a few BOI companies in the  province,  the firm deals with BOI and in my case a SME company  Immigration would take it on face value.

Have read immigration  have other agents that they except for proof of income, employment, at a  guess mostly used for quest workers from bordering countries.

Look outside the square, wife, cleaner, gardener,  equals small company and W/P.

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## can123

Tough titty !

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## tomcat

> In the 15 years doing extension to stay, never once asked source of income.


...same for my 12 years of doing extensions: immi only wanted to see the amount that I declared on my embassy-notarized declaration was B65K or above...




...as if anyone could live on that...

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## OhOh

> Do you not have to have the letter from the Thai bank signed on the day of your immigration visit?


Yes of course. But in my case that only indicated the days account balance. Not the full required amount. Costing THB100 from a local Thai bank branch.

Her procedure for issuing my visa extension based on retirement/being 50+ years old using the combined "pension + Thai bank amount" option was thus:

1. Using the Embassy letter's unverified amount in £s, multiplied by the day of  application £/THB exchange rate which she checked on her phone, she calculated the  "pension" portion. 

2. Using my Thai bank book, which the officer looked through, she located what the minimum balance was, during the required three month period.

3. Adding them together, items 1.and 2. she confirmed I had more than the minimum, THB 800,000 and hence she could issue me the visa extension.

No questions of the amounts previously shown in my Thai bank book or where the monies came from, foreign or local. Nor any demand that they remained in my Thai bank account.

But it seems most here just leave the required amount sitting in their Thai bank account all year.

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## tomcat

.....

----------


## tomcat

...If it is meant to reflect a year's worth of deposits, why must the bank statement be signed on the same day as an application for a visa extension?...

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## Pragmatic

> But it seems most here just leave the required amount sitting in their Thai bank account all year.


 I leave 800,000 sitting in a fixed term account in a 'Credit Union' getting 6%. I'm married but find the RE easier to obtain than the ME. Plus having more money here than I need is to cover myself in the case of emergency. Not only that, but in the event of my death my missus and kids have something to live on until my finances are sorted with the UK bank and pension provider. Simple innit?

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## Loy Toy

For the first time since my stay here I am thinking about applying for permanent residence status.

I presently have a parental visa and a work permit but things seem to getting more difficult by the year.

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## headhunter

> I leave 800,000 sitting in a fixed term account in a 'Credit Union' getting 6%. I'm married but find the RE easier to obtain than the ME. Plus having more money here than I need is to cover myself in the case of emergency. Not only that, but in the event of my death my missus and kids have something to live on until my finances are sorted with the UK bank and pension provider. Simple innit?


i will second that.all in favour please show,CARRIED.

----------


## Switch

As per the current situation, it all depends on the way your IO interpret the legislation. Without clear and unambiguous advice from their leadership, the system will continue to vary, from office to office.

I think we all know that the current verification system has finished, and the Thais will apply the simplest and most cost effective way of doing it for them.

Long term retirees are not big enough numerically for their decision to have any real impact on the Thai economy. Do they care about Thai spouses and children in mixed marriages? Probably not very much.

The authorities will take the easy option for them, and that is just tough for a minority of expat retirees.

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## Norton

> For the first time since my stay here I am thinking about applying for permanent residence status.


In your case, fully qualified. Certainly something to consider.

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## Norton

> As per the current situation, it all depends on the way your IO interpret the legislation. Without clear and unambiguous advice from their leadership, the system will continue to vary, from office to office.


In a nut shell. Hence, inquire at local immigration office.

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## bowie

> For the first time since my stay here I am thinking about applying for permanent residence status.


The Math:

Permanent Residence application (TM9) fee THB 7,600
5. Fees 5.1 A non-refundable fee for each application is 7,600 baht. (whether permission is granted or not. Application fee is not refund able.) 
5.2 If the application is approved, the fee for the residence permit is 191,400 baht. However, the residence permit fee for *spouses* and children (under 20 years of age) of aliens who already had the residence permit or Thai citizens is 95,700 baht.

Application Fee + Permit Fee 
THB 7,600 + THB 95,700 = THB 103,300           

Permanent Fee Annual Fee
THB 103,300 / THB 1,990 = 54 years

Yup, annual qualifications are an aggravation, but, a 54 year payback?

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## Loy Toy

^ Bloody hell.

Looks like annual renewals then.

Thanks for the feedback.

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## OhOh

> y. Not only that, but in the event of my death my missus and kids have something to live on until my finances are sorted with the UK bank and pension provider. Simple innit?


Presumably you have the exact same wills available in the UK and Thailand which specifies who gets what. I know in the UK the banks/insurance companies  require original death certificates, issued by the doctor, local or hospital where the death occurs, plus original copies of the will prior to releasing funds via the wills named executer. Is that similar in Thailand?

How quickly, in Thailand, is a death certificate issued for a foreigners death, presumably by the police/doctor, yes?

How do your wife and kids access the bank account prior to the your estate being released to the wills executer and then the beneficiaries? I suspect pictures of the burning at the Wat are insufficient. Do the estate executer receive a certificate of cremation from the head monk?

----------


## Pragmatic

> Presumably you have the exact same wills available in the UK and Thailand which specifies who gets what.


 That's a little too complicated. My bank account in the UK is in joint names with my wife. She just carries on drawing monies that will be deposited after my death. Here in Ting Tong Land the bank will give my missus access to my money on production of the death certificate. Wife not here to confirm that at the mo. But that was all the MiL had to do when her farang hubby died, as far as I'm aware, and they weren't married.

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## tomcat

> But that was all the MiL had to do when her farang hubby died, as far as I'm aware, and they weren't married.


...what proof did the bank require that MiL and hubby were indeed a couple?...

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## bowie

OhOh, Prag, opened another thread concerning death over here. Would appreciate your inputs. Thx in advance.

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## Pragmatic

> ...what proof did the bank require that MiL and hubby were indeed a couple?...


 As I said, my missus ain't here at the mo to confirm how she gained access. I'll get back.

----------


## Pragmatic

> ...what proof did the bank require that MiL and hubby were indeed a couple?...


 They had a joint bank account. Every year the hubby used to go home for 2 weeks in February. He see friends and buy foods that he couldn't get here and withdrawals all his money and brings it over in cash after obtaining a 12 month visa in Germany. He'd then exchange his money here according to the ups and downs of the markets. He couldn't master the idea of using a computer and doing transfers online.

----------


## tomcat

> They had a joint bank account.


...so, no need for the bank to intervene at all then...she withdraws the money but leaves the account open in case reincarnation is a thing...

----------


## toddaniels

I didn't even bother to read all the comments on this thread. 
Let's start with some facts

FACT - Dec 12th is the last day the UK consulate will accept applications (either by post or online) for the affidavit of income from abroad notary letter.

FACT - Dec 31st is the last day the US consulate will notarize affidavit of income from abroad letters


At this time <- (read and understand that) income affidavit letters are good for 6 months from the date they were issued <- that is NOT in dispute it is a police order put out back on May 29th 2013. 

In theory this means anyone who gets an affidavit of income notary BEFORE they stop issuing them and uses it to get an extension within the 6 month period should be okay with the immigration office accepting it. There has been NO official comment that this won't work (in fact I ran it by 3 immigration officers out at Chaengwattana and they seemed okay with it, but that doesn't mean shit really). 

Also at this time there has been NO official policy change on the ways you can meet the financial requirements to get extensions of stays inside the country at the immigration offices. While it has been bandied about that they will begin accepting bank deposits of 65K baht a month in lieu of the consulate notary letters there is NO OFFICIAL change, so that means until an official policy change is announced it's nothing but conjecture and speculation. 

I go out to the immigration office in Bangkok every thursday (because I like the food court  :Wink:  ) and I will check in with them and keep everyone updated if I find out anything new

----------


## tomcat

> I go out to the immigration office in Bangkok every thursday (because I like the food court  )


...coincidentally, I was standing behind you when you explained your CW proclivities to...someone. I heard you say that you had an 80% success rate with online 90-day check-ins. However, when you claimed you braved the crowds at CW every Thursday because you liked the food court, I sidled away, fearing for my life.

----------


## OhOh

> That's a little too complicated.


Thanks for your post.

----------


## cyrille

> I didn't even bother to read all the comments on this thread.


Like that's something somehow admirable.

----------


## Norton

> While it has been bandied about that they will begin accepting bank deposits of 65K baht a month in lieu of the consulate notary letters there is NO OFFICIAL change, so that means until an official policy change is announced it's nothing but conjecture and speculation


With absence of "official" direction, I visited head of my local office and was told 65k per month via bank letter would suffice. Of course, I know this could change between now and my mid June extension to stay date.

----------


## toddaniels

> Like that's something somehow admirable.



Face it Cyrille, most people don't know their ass from their elbow when it comes to visas or extensions OR the police order that controls the requirements.

----------


## Switch

Thanks for the update Tod. Ignore Cyril, he’s just being a feisty old bitch because his beloved football team keep getting hammered.

----------


## Seekingasylum

Todd, there are several issues arising out of this development announced by the American and British embassies which you seemingly have failed to acknowledge..

Firstly, in relation to the British practice and procedure, the Limeys followed the Memorandum of Understanding reached between the MFA acting on behalf of the Immigration Dept and all the leading foreign embassies, and faithfully pursued a procedure whereby no income letter was supplied unless evidence in support was submitted with the application viz; original letter from the pension provider and evidence of funds flowing through a bank account sourced from that income. So, if this is not "verification", then what the fuck is?? So, how has it come about that the British are now saying they cannot verify when in truth that is what they have been doing for over a decade? 

In relation to the septics we are all aware that they never asked for corroborating evidence and merely notarised a self serving affidavit sworn by the punter for a fee. 

I can well understand the Thai getting a bit poopy about the Yanks not playing with a straight bat but how the fuck did the Brits come to give up on a procedure that worked for the punter, complied with Thai expectations under the MoU and earned the Brits consular section a nice regular bunce for very little work.

Clearly, there is more to this than meets the eye as announced by the Brits in their somewhat sparse press release.

Todd, please ask around the next time you go hob-nobbing with your immigration chums up at Laksi.

Secondly, AFAIK, it is not expressed in any Police Order/Act or procedural arrangement that monthly income must be transferred from abroad and remitted monthly into a Thai bank account - the legislation simply states that the applicant seeking an extension of stay as a retiree must demonstrate that they hold 800K in a Thai bank account, show an income of 65,000 per month or meet the financial requirement through a combination of the aforesaid. 

So, if the income routes are to remain despite the withdrawal of validation by foreign embassies, how can it work? Thai staff cannot be expected to comprehend the myriad documentation relating to pension funding from diverse sources in languages they cannot comprehend. To simply say, as the idiots in the British embassy laughably suggested, the income should be transferred monthly into the Thai bank account is quite absurd for obvious reasons.

Have the Thai thought about the ramifications of this? 

There are any number of retired folk I know who live in their own properties unencumbered by debt  and choose to defray their relatively modest  expenses as and when by simply transferring ad hoc funds whenever spending cash needs replenishing. Quite how retired folk living in the sticks in their own gaffs are expected to get through 65,000 a month when they spend most of their time either in an alcoholic haze gibbering at a computer screen after they are collected by their wives from an afternoon of beer swilling in their shebeens with their equally frazzled chums, or mooching around the hinterland grazing off the land and cultivating their dystopian rural idyll into something resembling a suburban English garden.

In my own case, I rarely need more than 50k month even here in Pattaya. All my hotel/holiday/travel expenses/ decent restaurant meals here are settled by credit card cleared monthly from a British bank account as indeed are any big ticket domestic items, maintaining one's wardrobe, or hospital/dental expenses. Quite simply transferred monies sent here are for household food, beer and assorted fripperies, subsidising family emergencies and donations, and in truth the wingman sorts most of that out.

----------


## NamPikToot

> Quite simply transferred monies sent here are for rent boys, GBH, Rohypnol, Sausages and assorted fripperies and legal emergencies and donations, and in truth Buttfly sorts most of that out.


FTFY.

----------


## Seekingasylum

Do you have a personal goal whereby you must spout fucking gibberish every fucking day somewhere?

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## NamPikToot

> Do you have a personal goal whereby you must spout fucking gibberish every fucking day somewhere?


Is that rhetorical?

Love Mo

----------


## Switch

> Todd, there are several issues arising out of this development announced by the American and British embassies which you seemingly have failed to acknowledge..
> 
> Firstly, in relation to the British practice and procedure, the Limeys followed the Memorandum of Understanding reached between the MFA acting on behalf of the Immigration Dept and all the leading foreign embassies, and faithfully pursued a procedure whereby no income letter was supplied unless evidence in support was submitted with the application viz; original letter from the pension provider and evidence of funds flowing through a bank account sourced from that income. So, if this is not "verification", then what the fuck is?? So, how has it come about that the British are now saying they cannot verify when in truth that is what they have been doing for over a decade? 
> 
> In relation to the septics we are all aware that they never asked for corroborating evidence and merely notarised a self serving affidavit sworn by the punter for a fee. 
> 
> I can well understand the Thai getting a bit poopy about the Yanks not playing with a straight bat but how the fuck did the Brits come to give up on a procedure that worked for the punter, complied with Thai expectations under the MoU and earned the Brits consular section a nice regular bunce for very little work.
> 
> Clearly, there is more to this than meets the eye as announced by the Brits in their somewhat sparse press release.
> ...


Bollocks.
The Embassy always used a rider by stating that they had seen the applicants proof of income but would not be held responsible for its accuracy.
That is not verification.
Verification would require embassy staff to personally verify the probity of every claimed income source. Clearly an impossible task.

I noted some time ago that, all the embassy had done, was to put the onus for verification back on the Thai system. Then wait and see the cluterfuck caused by that shift. Petulant diplomacy, quite worthy of the FCO.

Theres a loophole there ripe for exploitation and Thai agents already exploiting it.

----------


## Pragmatic

> Theres a loophole there ripe for exploitation and Thai agents already exploiting it.


Are they? I thought the new head of immigration has put a block on agents using their offices? Therefore making life difficult. I'm usually wrong.    :Smile:

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## toddaniels

okay seeing as I go to the Bangkok immigration office every thursday (because I like the food court at the government complex) I have asked specifically about this conundrum last week and yesterday as well. I spoke to the three highest ranking officers in section L <- that's the one that does extensions, based on retirement, married to a thai, married to a foreigner legally working here, raising half-thai kids and raising 100% foreign kids.. 

They reiterated what we know the US, UK consulates will discontinue issuing affidavits of income at the end of the year (and while there has been no official statement they said the Australian consulate will discontinue the stat decs at the end of the year too) 

They said the police order that states income affidavits are valid for 6 months will remain in effect <- meaning anyone who needs to get a new extension during the first 6 months of next year WILL be able to get an affidavit THIS year and use it for their next extension.

They also said at this time <- here let me restate that for you thick cบnts AT THIS TIME, there has been NO OFFICIAL POLICY CHANGE. Meaning all the conjecture (and indeed the b/s posted by the UK and US consulate concerning how you can meet the 65K baht a month income) is FALSE. They are going over options. They also know that this change affects people; NOT a lot or as many as the inter-web outrage would have you believe, but it does affect people. (In fact it affects me because I've used the consulate notary letter for 11 years now...) 

So to recap, IF you use the consulate notary AND you have an extension coming up by the end of June (keeping in mind you can apply for a new extension in Bangkok, Chiang Mai, Buriram and Phuket 45 days before your current one expires and in most other immigration offices 30 days days before) get your notary letter BEFORE the end of the year and use it next year to meet the proof of funds for your extension application. 

This is the most recent and up to date information I could get. Believe me ONCE the immigration office makes an official announcement about the policy change in regards to showing the 65K baht a month in income from abroad I'm sure it will sweep the inter-web.  

Remember your mileage may vary if you use some pissant immigration office in a one buffalo village in Nakhon Nowhere..

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## Dragonfly

> okay seeing as I go to the Bangkok immigration office every thursday (because I like the food court at the government complex)


jesus christ, probably one of the worst place to go for lunch in the world

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## Humbert

For several years now I've used an income verification affidavit from the US Embassy when obtaining by annual retirement visa extension at the Surin Immigration Office. They also have required copies of bank entries into my Bangkok Bank direct deposit account for one year. I would venture that with the end of income verification letters they will require a letter from my bank as further proof of income. 
I know several guys who have obtained visa extension in Bangkok and Ayutthaya using only the Embassy letter without any other forms of verification. This loophole will certainly be coming to an end.

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## toddaniels

Okay, the information I got from the Immigration officers yesterday IS actually true 

NO more Stat Dec's from the Auzzie Consulate anymore as of Jan 7th

This public service announcement provided by 'Just-Ask-Tod' <- the guy IS an asshole but he knows thingz

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## lom

Now Todd, that is what I told you 4 years ago and anyone but you could see it coming.
Have you become any wiser during these 4 years or do you still think that the embassy letter route wasn't a loophole for Aussies, Britons, and Yanks?
Thai immigration obviously saw it as a loophole and required those countries embassies to close the hole.

https://teakdoor.com/thai-visas-and-v...ml#post2849665 (Extension retirement visa ,bank money)

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## Pragmatic

> Is he in Phuket this Tod fella?


 Bangkok.

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## tomcat

...^and at CW every Thursday folks,  waiting in line for _you_...meet him at lunch in the food court where he'll gladly tell you everything he knows...

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## lom

> he'll gladly tell you everything he knowz...


 FTFY.

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## toddaniels

> Now Todd, that is what I told you 4 years ago and anyone but you could see it coming.


I see your crystal ballz were correct IF 4 years early... you should buy a lottery ticket 

Nope, no smarter at all, because I still don't take unsubstantiated rumors and conjecture from every Tom, Dick & Somchai here..

This has been in negotiations since at least the beginning of April between these consulates and the thai immigration office. Nothing was decided, and then the consulates just said, FUCK this we just won't issue the letter at all. <-Much like MANY consulates here that don't have that service and never had.

What do you want me to do, say you were right 4 years ago when you predicted it? Christ even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while, gimme a break

Or here, I admit you were right, I bow to your extremely finite wisdom..  Do you feel better now?

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## OhOh

> Or here, I admit you were right,


Until the Thai Immigration Office issues the clarification, as to what will be accepted as "evidence" to substantiate the required monies, we are none the wiser.The Oz embassy fails to answer the question regarding the combined accepted alternative - cash in a Thai bank + annual pension payments.

The embassies have, as you suggest, washed their hands of the problem. As usual.

And nobody can claim they were or are right until the TIO issues it's directive.

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## Seekingasylum

Thank you for your response, Tod, it's much appreciated.

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## Dragonfly94

whats all the fuss about? it will only affect the liars and the scumbags. Those who had to pay outrageous fees for what seem to have been meaningless letters will be saving. I imagine it will push the potless to the visa fixers and that will be the next avenue to be shut down

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## HuangLao

> I see your crystal ballz were correct IF 4 years early... you should buy a lottery ticket 
> 
> Nope, no smarter at all, because I still don't take unsubstantiated rumors and conjecture from every Tom, Dick & Somchai here..
> 
> This has been in negotiations since at least the beginning of April between these consulates and the thai immigration office. Nothing was decided, and then the consulates just said, FUCK this we just won't issue the letter at all. <-Much like MANY consulates here that don't have that service and never had.
> 
> What do you want me to do, say you were right 4 years ago when you predicted it? Christ even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while, gimme a break
> 
> Or here, I admit you were right, I bow to your extremely finite wisdom..  Do you feel better now?



Nonetheless, seems to be particular trend among certain representing diplomatic missions - US,UK, OZ [naturally, large resident population] - all followed suit in quick fashion. 

Yet, nothing has been proclaimed [nor heard/read about] regarding other significant foreign resident populations - French? German? Norwegian?....etc.
What of their fate? 

Just curious. 
Keep on keeping on....

----------


## Seekingasylum

Obviously, the embassies have conspired to come up with the same bald statements that fail utterly to explain how this all came about. The issue remains inexplicable - the British since a decade ago, and the Australians from last year, stated that they would only issue income letters if they were supported by proof of pension receipt from the fucking pension provider (and if required, bank statements) and in anyone's book that's fucking verification. So, why the fuck are they both saying they can no longer do it?

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## Dragonfly94

Fraud

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## Pragmatic

> So, why the fuck are they both saying they can no longer do it?


  Does it really matter?  *Ours not to reason why, ours but to do and die*

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## lom

> I see your crystal ballz were correct IF 4 years early.


Crystal ball was away for service (dilithium crystal refill) at that time but was not needed anyway, the writing was on the wall.

----------


## Switch

> Obviously, the embassies have conspired to come up with the same bald statements that fail utterly to explain how this all came about. The issue remains inexplicable - the British since a decade ago, and the Australians from last year, stated that they would only issue income letters if they were supported by proof of pension receipt from the fucking pension provider (and if required, bank statements) and in anyone's book that's fucking verification. So, why the fuck are they both saying they can no longer do it?


I see you have perfected the art of only listening while you are talking.

THE EMBASSY ALWAYS ISSUED LETTERS WITH A RIDER THAT THEY WERE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ACCURACY OF FINANCIAL STATEMENTS PROVIDED BY THE APPLICANT.

Its a simple measure to protect embassy staff from fraud charges. The Thais want probity in their dealings with applicants and the Brit system, presumably along with others, did not provide this.
Move the goalposts and let the problem lie where it falls. Thai can’t do it, and embassy’s will no longer do it.

Just wait and see what happens next year, when the current system fails to meet requirements.

Your personal struggles with comprehension and visa extensions are irrelevant. You will have to return home and write nasty letters to The Irish Times.

----------


## jabir

> whats all the fuss about? it will only affect the liars and the scumbags. Those who had to pay outrageous fees for what seem to have been meaningless letters will be saving. I imagine it will push the potless to the visa fixers and that will be the next avenue to be shut down


Er, do the visa fixers produce visas out of their magic hat, or via corrupt immigration officials? And considering these new conditions are intended as an anti-corruption measure, in your view will they reduce or increase corruption?

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## jabir

> Obviously, the embassies have conspired to come up with the same bald statements that fail utterly to explain how this all came about. The issue remains inexplicable - the British since a decade ago, and the Australians from last year, stated that they would only issue income letters if they were supported by proof of pension receipt from the fucking pension provider (and if required, bank statements) and in anyone's book that's fucking verification. So, why the fuck are they both saying they can no longer do it?


This was covered earlier in the thread. The so-called verification letter verifies only that the embassy have seen 'evidence' of those amounts and sources; evidence is not proof, which is what our glorious leaders want.

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## tomcat

> evidence is not proof


...certainly not, particularly when blatantly obvious corruption has been uncovered...

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## Seekingasylum

> This was covered earlier in the thread. The so-called verification letter verifies only that the embassy have seen 'evidence' of those amounts and sources; evidence is not proof, which is what our glorious leaders want.


And as I have already said, evidence is proof, they're fucking synonyms you dribbling swamp fart, but I suppose in your laboured neanderthal way you are struggling to reach in your mental fog the concept of differing burdens of proof according to whichever "test" might prevail, you dullard.

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## Dragonfly94

Not proof at all as faking statements has been going on for years, having to produce a Thai bank book and a letter from the Bank is another matter.

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## Pragmatic

It does seem somewhat unfair that when obtaining a letter from ones embassy the letter is good for 6 months. Whereas 400-800,000 in the bank, the bank letter is only good for that one day. Totally wrong.

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## Dragonfly94

Totally Thailand  :Smile:

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## jabir

> And as I have already said, evidence is proof, they're fucking synonyms you dribbling swamp fart, but I suppose in your laboured neanderthal way you are struggling to reach in your mental fog the concept of differing burdens of proof according to whichever "test" might prevail, you dullard.


Ho hum...clearly English is not your first language. 

But there's virtue in aiding the afflicted so let's try again: When two people or sets of documents provide conflicting evidence, which if either is proof?

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## Seekingasylum

Depending on how you approach it Prag, either by post or in person, the costs to obtain a consular letter can amount to several thousand baht and the investment in time and preparation in obtaining the necessary evidence in support. Getting a fucking Thai bank letter takes 10 fucking minutes and costs a pissing 100 baht.

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## jabir

> Not proof at all as faking statements has been going on for years, having to produce a Thai bank book and a letter from the Bank is another matter.


For the benefit of SA, not you or the rest of the world: A Thai bank book or a bank letter are evidence, not proof, since they could have been forged or tampered with. But for immigration purposes they are strong enough evidence to be regarded as proof.

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## Pragmatic

> Depending on how you approach it Prag, either by post or in person, the costs to obtain a consular letter can amount to several thousand baht and the investment in time and preparation in obtaining the necessary evidence in support. Getting a fucking Thai bank letter takes 10 fucking minutes and costs a pissing 100 baht.


 I do agree with you 'The Gents' but why go down the embassy route when the cash route is the easy option? You may say 'its because people do not have the finances'. So how do they get the monies to buy a car, house, motorcycle etc?

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## tomcat

> So how do they get the monies to buy a car, house, motorcycle etc?


...*cough*...

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## OhOh

> You may say 'its because people do not have the finances'. So how do they get the monies to buy a car, house, motorcycle etc?


How many buy a new car,house or motorcycle, every year? Some purchase new houses/cars/wives every 4/5 years, when finance becomes available again and a boost to their virtual status demands it. Got to keep the snowball rolling eh. All well and good as "the ball" increases in size whilst you push it around. Then the "temperature" climbs and your "ball of snow" melts away.

Some in Thailand like a gamble or two, or three......... The miniscule return via Thai Bank account does not compare to the thrill of "investing".

Solution 1.

Last year at this time some became virtual billionaires, in digital tokens, real if they sold at the correct time. I believe there is a thread here on TD illustrating the winners and what they bought with their wits/balls.

Solution 2.

Others "loan" the required amount for 3 months. The loanee gets a result, a visa extension stamp, the loaner also, a higher interest rate backed by .............

Solution 3.

Go to another country on a 12 week on / 2 week off rotation. Live like a "lord" and enjoy the cleanest water, air or girls/boys.

Solution 4.

................................

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## Pragmatic

> So how do they get the monies to buy a car, house, motorcycle etc?


 The Thai immigration will also be thinking the same. Their conclusion will be that 'farangs must be working'. So they shut that loophole. Expect more to follow.   ::chitown::

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## bowie

As I went the lump sum route this issue is of little concern to me today. But, it may well be a heads up to all foreigners. We shall see. I expect that the Thai’s will be providing more detailed information concerning just what will qualify as “evidence” for monthly income. 

On their website FAQ page they call for a bank letter for the 400k/800k lump sum deposit, or, a *letter from applicants embassy verifying monthly pension or income. (see 5.3 below)*

Now that three embassies have indicated they will no longer provide the “letters/affidavits”, well, up to the Thai’s how they will handle the “monthly income” option. They did provide an adequate window with the ability of persons to get the Embassy Affidavit with the six-month validity before the Embassies will no longer provide. Basically, saying you’ve got one more annual extension before “the noose tightens”. 

I discussed this with an Attorney a few years ago and on the basis of his advice “lump sum” was my chosen method. 


If I had gone the monthly deposit Embassy Affidavit route and planned to continue using the monthly deposit, at this point in time, I would: a) get my last Embassy Affidavit at late as possible, depends upon which Embassy and when my extension is due, b) make certain my bank statements show the minimum amount required being deposited monthly AND regularly, and, c) I would be contacting the suppliers of the monthly deposited funds requesting a letter detailing the source of the funds. 

Basically, you, the foreigner, are going to bear the burden of proof of your financial security and meeting the Thailand Immigration Departments requirements. Until the Thailand Immigration Department issues firm requirements for the “evidence” and guidelines along how to satisfy those requirements, well, you are at the mercy of an individual Immigration Officers subjective analysis of whether your “evidence” does, in fact, meet their criteria.     

To those who are impacted, Good Luck with this. Be somewhat thankful for the advanced notice. You have adequate time to detail close to a full year of deposits. 



From Thailand Immigration Website Frequently Asked Questions

Immigration Division 1
*16**.Question : Is it possible for the alien to stay in Thailand with his Thai wife? What are the requirements?*

*      Answer* : Alien having Thai wife could stay in Thailand under the reason of staying with his Thai wife. The requirements and documentations are as follows; 

Foreign husband must obtain “Non-Immigrant visa”Having any proof of relationship; Marriage Certificate, Birth certificate of their children (if any) etc.Having evidences of nationality of his Thai wife; Thai ID card, her household registration Book.Having relationship with Thai wife de jure and de facto; Family picture, map of the applicant’s residence in Thailand.Having evidences of definite financial status of foreign husband by showing average income not less than 40,000 Baht per month or having money in the Thai Bank account of not less than 400,000 Baht which must be held consecutively not shorter than two months.
Documents supporting financial status of foreign husband as mentioned 
above are as follows:
*For foreign husband working in Thailand*

Work PermitLetter from his employer verified employment and salary in details. (monthly salary must not be less than 40,000 Baht)Evidences of  payment of annual income tax with receipt (Por Ngor Dor 1 of latest three months and Por Ngor Dor 91 of the previous year)
*OR* 
*     5.2* *In case of having money in the bank account (Fix/Saving Deposit) of any bank in Thailand*
           -  The updated bank passbook on the date of application submission showing his account of not less than 400,000 Baht which has been deposited and consecutively held of such amount for 2 months
           -  Letter from the bank certified that account.  
*OR*
*     5.3  In case of foreign husband having any other income (not working in Thailand) such as pension, social welfare etc.
        - * Letter from the applicant’s Embassy consulate in Bangkok verified his monthly pension or other income not less than 40,000 Baht per month
An affidavit confirming the alien’s status with a Thai national

----------


## Pragmatic

> Having any proof of relationship; Marriage Certificate, Birth certificate of their children (if any) etc.


 Off topic a little, does anyone know why your children enter into the equation when getting an extension based on marriage?      :Confused:

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## Seekingasylum

Because, producing a sprog together is perhaps the most telling of evidence supporting your claim to have a relationship on which basis you might be seeking an extension of stay.

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## bowie

> Off topic a little, does anyone know why your children enter into the equation when getting an extension based on marriage?



Can't answer with any certainty, and my experience(s) USA and Thailand, the job of an Immigration Officer is to enforce the regulations and to verify/validate that there information provided is "legitimate". Weed out fraud, false marriages, (USA terms "actions" to bypass the immigration laws). 

In Thailand I figure having children is on the plus side. Pretty much legitimizes the marriage. Interesting point though, in USA immigration the more children you have, the more money you must show, either 125 or 150%  of the poverty level (I forget which it is) for the family size. In Thailand well, they figure THB 400k for one and THB 800k for two, children are free.

----------


## jabir

> Can't answer with any certainty, and my experience(s) USA and Thailand, the job of an Immigration Officer is to enforce the regulations and to verify/validate that there information provided is "legitimate". Weed out fraud, false marriages, (USA terms "actions" to bypass the immigration laws). 
> 
> In Thailand I figure having children is on the plus side. Pretty much legitimizes the marriage. Interesting point though, in USA immigration the more children you have, the more money you must show, either 125 or 150%  of the poverty level (I forget which it is) for the family size. In Thailand well, they figure THB 800k for one and THB 400k for two, children don't count as they cost nothing to house, feed, clothe and educate.


ftfy.

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## Pragmatic

> Because, producing a sprog together is perhaps the most telling of evidence supporting your claim to have a relationship on which basis you might be seeking an extension of stay.


Isn't it correct that you can get an extension (400,000) based on supporting a Thai child without being married?

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## bowie

> Isn't it correct that you can get an extension (400,000) based on supporting a Thai child without being married?



Apparently - Yes

same FAQ link: Immigration Division 1

19. Question: Could the alien having Thai son/daughter stay in the Kingdom in order to be supported?
Answer : According to the Regulation, This case could be applied by the *reason of being a family member of Thai national.* The requirements are as follows;
        1.The foreigner (father/mother must have been granted “Non-Immigrant Visa” 
        2.Having any proof of relationship. eg. Birth Certificate
        3.Having evidences of nationality of his/her Thai son/daughter eg. Thai ID Card, Household    Registration
        4.Father/Mother must have average income not less than 40,000 Bath per month or having money in Thai bank account (Fixed/Saving) not less than 400,000 Bath by showing the relevant documents eg. individual income tax return together with payment receipt or  update bank passbook and certified letter from the bank or evidence of receiving retirement pension included certified letter from his/her Embassy located in Thailand.
        5.An affidavit confirming the alien’s parental status with a Thai national.


Surprised they're not asking for DNA testing, also wonder about Thai children adopted by as foreigner?

----------


## OhOh

The requirements and documentations are, currently:




> Having evidences of definite financial status of  foreign husband by showing average income not less than 40,000 Baht per  month


Which does not demand a payment every month into a Thai bank account. 

Only that the evidence must be shown that, over a year the income is greater than 480,000 and in a Thai bank for 2 months. Some months may be more,some less. The amount per year must be over their minimum. One, two, four, six or twelve payments.

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## can123

400,000 baht.

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## OhOh

> 400,000 baht.


Only if in one payment into a Thai bank for two months.




> Having evidences of definite financial status of foreign husband by showing average income not less than 40,000 Baht per month *or* having money in the Thai Bank account of not less than 400,000 Baht which must be held consecutively not shorter than two months

----------


## bowie

Well, in their “requirements and documentations” they require THB 400k or THB 800k deposited in “(Fix/Saving Deposit) of any bank in Thailand”, for 2, or 3 months, depending on your specific situation.

In my recent experience they scrutinize the numbers, figures and number of days with a microscope. I have never had a problem as my “lump sum” deposit has been sitting idle for years. But, at my last extension a couple of weeks ago, l had three IO’s review my bankbook highlighting the figures on the copied sheet of paper and counting backwards and forwards. Now my savings deposit has been idle. So other than the THB 15 monthly service fee and interest deposit there is no activity and the entire history fits on a single page of paper. So, they had my bank book, a single page copy of the statement (from the internet webpage) and a single page copy of the bank book. And all three IO’s scrutinized and compared all three documents. 

I don’t know why such scrutiny although I expect either they got the word from upstairs or possibly “the new sheriff in town” routine. But, in my memory I never saw such scrutinization. 

So be it. If they paid such attention to my "idle" lump sum deposit from years ago, I sure as hell would not want to go the monthly route. 

Another comment when my Attorney “reviewed” my financial options for the “retirement” extension, his concentration, review and opinion were concerning the definition of a “pension”. In his formal professional opinion, monthly deposits from my IRA account held in a USA brokerage account would not, or did not satisfy Thailand’s requirement. Again, his concentration was on the definition of a “pension”. In a few years when I start my Social Security Retirement benefits I would meet the requirement. But, now, why bother. The lump sum qualifiers already there. Best to just let it ride.

Additional comment: the Attorney was looking at Thai written documents. I, of course am using the English stuff from the Thai Immigration website. I do not know the exact Thai wording in their regulations, but, perhaps in their Regulations they may require monthly deposits from a, in Thai terms, "pension plan" for the retirement (or as they translate it "end-of-life" extension)

----------


## Pragmatic

> Well, in their “requirements and documentations” they require THB 400k or THB 800k deposited in “(Fix/Saving Deposit) of any bank in Thailand”


 I too have my monies in a fixed term account and have had for years. Then, about 5+ years ago, they decided that they wanted to know what I lived on being as my monies was in a savings account. They think we're all working.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  Luckily my missus had our ordinary account book with her. They viewed that and only after doing so gave me my extension.

On another occasion my monies was made up of fixed term savings in 2 different accounts. The immigration officer got angry and asked my missus as to why we were messing him around? She tried to explain but he wouldn't listen. He then threw the books onto the table of the adjacent officer and stormed out. The other officer gave me my extension no problem. 

I hate all fcuking immigration wankers.

----------


## bowie

> The requirements and documentations are, currently:
> 
> _Having evidences of definite financial status of foreign husband by_ _showing average income not less__ than 40,000 Baht per month_
> 
> Which does not demand a payment every month into a Thai bank account. 
> 
> Only that the evidence must be shown that, over a year the income is greater than 480,000 and in a Thai bank for 2 months. Some months may be more,some less. The amount per year must be over their minimum. One, two, four, six or twelve payments.



OhOh, 

You are absolutely correct in your interpretation of that statement – specifically the term “average” and what it defines and would mean in our language, our problem is the actual regulations are written in Thai. The Thai term and how it is used grammatically, may not mean the same thing to the IO.

I, personally, would not risk my extension (or the PIA remedy where I wrong) on my interpretation of an English translation of a Thai Legal Regulatory requirement. We’ve all read the horror stories some have gone through when they’ve run into a “difficult” (for lack of a better term) Immigration Officer. 

For myself, I’m old (at the “end-of-life” as the Thai’s refer to it), lazy, satisfied, and ready-for-the-rocking-chair. 

The path of least resistance is my chosen venue. I dress nice and speak softly saying “it’s your country, it’s your job, you are the boss, whatever you say goes”. This works for me. Hassle-free? well, not 100%, but this method has worked for me in the past and I expect it to continue to work.

----------


## Pragmatic

> our problem is the actual regulations are written in Thai. The Thai term and how it is used grammatically, may not mean the same thing to the IO.


 For my annual extension I asked an immigration officer if having my monies in a fixed term account of a 'Credit Union' was acceptable. I was told yes. I was granted an extension. Last year, October, I was refused an extension as they said a 'Credit Union' wasn't a bank. No amount of reasoning, based on previous years, would they give me my extension. In the end they compromised in that they give me a week or so to pull the money out of the 'Credit union' and put it in my Bangkok Bank. No seasoning required. Only then would they renew my extension.

----------


## bowie

> I hate all fcuking immigration wankers.


Seconded, it ain't only the wankers (although they are a big part of the problem) it's the regulations. However, I had similar ridiculousness/roadblocks/misinterpretations/problems in dealing with the USA getting my wife's I551 green card. That one was basically a six-month cluster-!@#%. Yet, there I was back-and-forth USA/Thailand, no paycheck, jumping through hoops. Played it all by the book. Job got done, but, not for the faint of heart.

----------


## bowie

"In the end they compromised in that they give me a week or so to pull the money out of the 'Credit union' and put it in my Bangkok Bank. No seasoning required. Only then would they renew my extension."



Common sense prevailed. It is ridiculous that with your family and your history in Thailand you have to jump through hoops. 

The regulations were not written for folks in your shoes, they are written to make it difficult for the many, many con artists. We, unfortunately, get caught up in those traps. 


On the other - and it may have been from an earlier experience you reported on TD (the IO's question concerning just what you are living on), I bring our joint account bank book, that is where I have my monthly IRA deposits put. So, that would actually satisfy the THB 40k per month deposit documentation, but, of course, as it's in both our names, it void meeting the requirements. And that book is I think is a 6 or 7 page copy. But, I bring it in case he question comes up. Frankly, whenever I deal with bureaucracy (Thai or USA) I brings many, many files. If they ask for the obscure stuff, its out in the car, I get it. 

It really is ridiculous what the legit have to go through.

----------


## toddaniels

> Isn't it correct that you can get an extension (400,000) based on supporting a Thai child without being married?


You CANNOT get a yearly extension of stay based on supporting a half-thai child of yours born out of wedlock until you go thru family court and get granted parental rights. In cases where unwed thai females have children 100% of the parental rights are the mother's. It does not matter if your'e on the birth certificate as the father OR if the child has a passport from your country. IN THAILAND you have no parental rights and cannot use the child as the reason for a yearly extension until you get the family court decree.

I know probably 10-15 foreigners here who have kids by their thai significant other out of wedlock and all they can do is get a 90 day single entry Non-O visa from Savannakhet or Vientiane (using just the birth certificate with their name as the father, the child's house book listing and the mother's thai i/d card) and then they can extend that for 60 days at the immigration office based on "visiting family",
The ONLY consulate in the area that will issue a year-long, multi-entry Non-O visa based on being the father of a thai child born out of wedlock is the thai consulate in Penang and you need to show 400K baht (or the equivalent) in a bank account the day you apply (no seasoning required). That visa means you bounce out and back in every 90 days BUT it gives you 15 months in country (in 90 day increments).

----------


## toddaniels

I have seen people who use joint bank accounts (at least down here in  Bangkok) be required to have DOUBLE the financial requirements in the  bank under the premise that only 50% of the money is yours. Meaning  using banked money from a joint account for a retirement you need 1.6  million baht seasoned the requisite amount of time and for marriage  extensions using banked money with a joint account you'd need 800K baht.  <- NOTE those experiences are ONLY in Bangkok, your mileage may vary  dealing with your immigration office up in Nakhon Nowhere.

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## toddaniels

Okay boyz and squirrellz let's get this thru our thick skulls.
NO MATTER WHAT the thai immigration website OR anyone you've talked to says AT THIS TIME <- read and understand that there has been NO OFFICIAL policy change as far as using income from abroad to meet the financial requirements on extensions where you can do so.

The rampant speculation and conjecture of what it might be does NOTHING to actually resolve the problem. 

Everyone has to wait for the immigration office to announce what the new policy will be AND no matter what the UK, US and Auzzie consulate think it might be, until the immigration office comes out with an announcement, even their guess is meaningless. 

You guys can beat it to death if you want to, but you're spinning your wheels & pissing in the wind until there's an official policy change announcement from the immigration office.

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## tomcat

...^and thus endeth the lesson...

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## Switch

^^ as I said in a couple of earlier posts, wait and see.

We both know that the Thai immigration service will opt for the easiest option for them, while trying to avoid losing face over a fuck up that they have caused by insisting on verification by embassies.

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## Pragmatic

> You CANNOT get a yearly extension of stay based on supporting a half-thai child of yours born out of wedlock until you go thru family court and get granted parental rights.


 What happens in the case of divorce? Can the legitimated father get an extension on supporting a Thai child? Just enquiring.

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## OhOh

> our problem is the actual regulations are written in Thai. The Thai term and how it is used grammatically, may not mean the same thing to the IO.


You are exactly right. In addition who has the ability to interpret and decide, one's local immigration officer.   :Smile:

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## OhOh

> Everyone has to wait for the immigration office to announce what the new policy will be


You are assuming there will be an "announcement". :Smile:

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## HuangLao

> You are exactly right. In addition who has the ability to interpret and decide, one's local immigration officer.



That's usually how it works.
Never the same from one locale to the next.

So.....pick yours carefully. 
Learn.

----------


## Seekingasylum

> I too have my monies in a fixed term account and have had for years. Then, about 5+ years ago, they decided that they wanted to know what I lived on being as my monies was in a savings account. They think we're all working.  Luckily my missus had our ordinary account book with her. They viewed that and only after doing so gave me my extension.
> 
> On another occasion my monies was made up of fixed term savings in 2 different accounts. The immigration officer got angry and asked my missus as to why we were messing him around? She tried to explain but he wouldn't listen. He then threw the books onto the table of the adjacent officer and stormed out. The other officer gave me my extension no problem. 
> 
> I hate all fcuking immigration wankers.


I too take the wingman whenever I have to negotiate anything with chicken heads not least because I realise that they are utterly riven with insecurities which might be exposed for all to see in the event their stupidity is publicly challenged by anything remotely resembling a problem taxing their pea brains. Stupidest folk I have ever encountered in the world. 

In Jomtien the paperwork for retirees is analysed by the same clerk who has been doing it for the past five years according to my experience but probably for even longer. He's a poof and works on tramlines and the trick is to provide everything in accordance with the rules but he is reliable and quite predictable. The wingman has a sixth sense in detecting whenever my hackles might start to rise and silences me with withering looks and a slight kick to the shin - I stick to my routine and present myself as the farang kwai and maintain a meek and humble persona. The trick is not to engage with the fuckers and simply wait until one is spoken to. 

The thing with the pygmies up country is that your very presence is a reminder they are impoverished low end fodder for the machine and no matter what they do they will never have what you have. Must be tough to wake up every day to have your nose rubbed in the mire by an endless procession of foul and repellent, frazzled farang who elevate their Thai wives to a financial standing far above what they, the immigration officer, consider to be their lowly status.

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## Dragonfly

Brilliant, SA, simply brilliant

it's exactly what it is,

and yes they are quite dumb  :Smile:

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## bowie

> and yes they are quite dumb


Oh no, they are not dumb, far from it, they may well be dissatisfied, unhappy, disillusioned, but, they ain't dumb. Actually they are quite powerful and they know it. They can, and sometimes will, provide an example of their power by making life miserable for you. Let's see just how far you can jump, and how high. And, for the most part, you/we are screwed. To them 'tis just another day at the office, to us, well, what are repercussions when your extension is denied?

They got you and they know it. Making life miserable for you has very little (if any) repercussions for them. Sure ain't gonna affect their annual bonus or pay raise, eh?

----------


## jabir

Makes more sense than SA's rant, predictably seconded by the Belgian.

----------


## headhunter

> Oh no, they are not dumb, far from it, they may well be dissatisfied, unhappy, disillusioned, but, they ain't dumb. Actually they are quite powerful and they know it. They can, and sometimes will, provide an example of their power by making life miserable for you. Let's see just how far you can jump, and how high. And, for the most part, you/we are screwed. To them 'tis just another day at the office, to us, well, what are repercussions when your extension is denied?
> 
> They got you and they know it. Making life miserable for you has very little (if any) repercussions for them. Sure ain't gonna affect their annual bonus or pay raise, eh?


yes they got you by the short and curlies if they want.i have seen blokes ranting and raving,and imm.officers nodding as if to say WAIT TILL NEXT TIME.
you have to put up and shut up,and its sir and thank you.what you say under your breath nobodys hears.
only one in 10extensions did I have a problem,and that was with bkk.bank giving me somebody else's acc.no on my letter.allto it cost me 700bht.and not even a sorry from the bank manager.needless to say I told the bank to stuff it,and that wasn't under my breath.

----------


## bowie

I do sympathize with them “somewhat”. I always go with the attitude that it is a “no-win” situation for me. I will abide by whatever the "soup du jour" happens to be. (The only thing you can count on is change)

In their defense – and I don’t give them much leeway, after all, it is their job, if they don’t like it, find employment elsewhere. But, their job is, go to the office five days a week dealing with an endless line of foreigners who don’t speak Thai (or like myself - speak Thai with such a poor accent it’s easier, and quicker, for them to speak English). Or, if the foreigner brought along his walking/talking dictionary, well, then you gotta train ‘em, “man, for Buddha’s sake, can’t they read”. After all, the documents they need are listed on the website and in the instructions. "And no, I don't know why you have to do A, B & C, it is my job to make sure you do A, B & C. I don't write the rules, I just enforce them."

So, their jobs are not fun. Realize there is an endless line of foreigners waiting for service. And, as soon as your file is complete, next number XXX is up. Here we go again, another “falang” with incorrectly filled out applications, wrong dates, wrong numbers, incorrect address, wrong line entry, etc., etc. And it is never ending – the line is never empty. Guess what, when you, the Falang are done, you get to go home for 3 months or a year. The IO, well, back tomorrow, start again, the same endless line of non-Thai speaking foreigners with incorrect paperwork and “attitudes”. 


Now, I can understand their frustration, BUT: I do absolutely everything in my power to complete the paperwork as per their instructions, provide the correct paperwork, the correct copies, correct photographs, follow their rules and procedures to the best of my ability, I am legit as the day is long. Have been here for years, have been through their bureaucratic hamster wheel of nonsense, and, damn it, I’ve paid my dues in aggravation time and time again. I, and anyone who has successfully dealt with their crap for five or more years deserves special, and, expedited service. 

Well, that felt good.

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## tomcat

> anyone who has successfully dealt with their crap for five or more years deserves special, and, expedited service.


...hear! hear!...

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## Pragmatic

> their jobs are not fun.


 Fcuk you'll have me crying in a minute. 



> And, as soon as your file is complete, next number XXX is up. Here we go again, another “falang” with incorrectly filled out applications, wrong dates, wrong numbers, incorrect address, wrong line entry, etc.


 They deliberately move the goal post every year. Been here 13 years and just when you think you've got all the paperwork requirements sorted they think themselves clever to change things. 
I've said before that you get a better service at immigration if you're not legal and willing to pay money under the table. The likelihood of getting 20,000 Baht from someone who is legal is, I'd say, never going to happen. May be 100 Baht due that being the change after paying 1,900 for your extension. So they can't be bothered with you.
I have no sympathy for immigration personnel in that their job 'is no fun'. It's no fun for me also having to play their ' I'm better than you' games.

----------


## bowie

> I've said before that you get a better service at immigration if you're not legal and willing to pay money under the table.


Hell, Prag, that goes for anything, Money Talks, you don't have to be "not legal" to get expedited service - all you need to be is cashed up. Money Talks, if I was cashed up I'd go the elite, then you don't do nothing other than pay and sign. 

Anyway - I'm certainly hoping, and, expecting (although not holding my breath) that Maj-General Surachate Hakpal is going to make our situation(s) "better". He has made a name for himself (kinda why he got the promotion/assignment) and it is possible that under his watch - the uhm... "corruption" will become far less.

I can say that it is far less prevalent than it was twenty-five years ago. It used to be prevalent and out in the open, almost to the point of being advertised.


The problem isn't the IO's - the problem is the system.

And, the problem is not isolated to Thailand - goggle bribes and just about any big city in the USA and you'll get a slew of hits - corruption exists everywhere, its only when it is "in-your-face" that we tend to notice it.

----------


## Dragonfly

> Oh no, they are not dumb, far from it, they may well be dissatisfied, unhappy, disillusioned, but, they ain't dumb. Actually they are quite powerful and they know it. They can, and sometimes will, provide an example of their power by making life miserable for you. Let's see just how far you can jump, and how high. And, for the most part, you/we are screwed. To them 'tis just another day at the office, to us, well, what are repercussions when your extension is denied?
> 
> They got you and they know it. Making life miserable for you has very little (if any) repercussions for them. Sure ain't gonna affect their annual bonus or pay raise, eh?


thats' the clear definition of dumb people, not dumb as not intelligent, dumb as playing little "silly" game like a teenager or a chav bully in his 30s would

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## toddaniels

bowie; how do you manage to live here without a spine? : :yerman:

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## bowie

^ Trolling fcuktard? - go hump someone else's leg

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## RPETER65

> I do agree with you 'The Gents' but why go down the embassy route when the cash route is the easy option? You may say 'its because people do not have the finances'. So how do they get the monies to buy a car, house, motorcycle etc?



Wire transfer as needed, I personally would rather not keep that amount of money in a Thai bank.

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## Pragmatic

> I personally would rather not keep that amount of money in a Thai bank.


 May I ask why not?    :Smile:

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## RPETER65

> May I ask why not?



Would rather keep that amount of money invested in the U.S.

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## YourDaddy

> bowie; how do you manage to live here without a spine? :


Hey, remember me from Ajarn Forum?

You kept harping how tourists and backpackers like myself are gonna get probed by immigration and old fucks like yourself are gonna enjoy a worry free life in Thailand.

Yet, on Thai Visa there is a new thread every 5 minutes from panicked old fucks who were looking down on people with tourist visas saying OMG what to do my life in Thailand is over.

Over? Seriously? You don't have fucking 800k to put in your bank account? Were you scamming the system all these years using embassy letters?

You reap what you saw or something like that in English  :Smile:

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## tomcat

> You reap what you saw or something like that in English


...probably the latter...

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## cyrille

> Hey, remember me from Ajarn Forum?

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## Switch

> Hey, remember me from Ajarn Forum?
> 
> You kept harping how tourists and backpackers like myself are gonna get probed by immigration and old fucks like yourself are gonna enjoy a worry free life in Thailand.
> 
> Yet, on Thai Visa there is a new thread every 5 minutes from panicked old fucks who were looking down on people with tourist visas saying OMG what to do my life in Thailand is over.
> 
> Over? Seriously? You don't have fucking 800k to put in your bank account? Were you scamming the system all these years using embassy letters?
> 
> You reap what you saw or something like that in English


Always have a plan B. De clutter your home life. The only thing I own that wont fit in my suitcase is my ego. lol 😂 
Stay flexible, adaptable and be prepared for anything.

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## toddaniels

> Hey, remember me from Ajarn Forum?


Nope, not at all. I don't look down on clueless tourists and beg-packers here I look down on stupid people. I don't care how you manage to stay in this rinky dink developing third world country. I like to think of myself as an equal opportunity disparager, I will put people down without regard to race, creed or color.  

I take it by your asinine comments, you are either one of the digital gonads living here while "crushing it" with what ever it is you sell online, an engrish teacher making 1000USD a month, staying in a shoe-box, eating mama noodles but "living the dream" here or a combination of the above.

In fact people who live here on back-2-back visa exempt and/or tourist visa entries ARE being targeted by the immigration officers at passport control when stamping into the country. More and more are being asked to show proof of 20K baht (or the equivalent) in cash, proof of onward travel and proof of accommodations. The ones who can't are denied entry. The inter-web has quite a few posts from people recently who had extensive visa exempt or tourist visa entry histories and who were denied entry to the kingdom..

One more time for the extremely thick; there has been NO official policy change on either the acceptance of the affidavit of income from abroad letters by immigrations OR their validity (6 months from the date they're issued). NO ONE (as in not your local immigration officer) has a clue what the new policy will be OR how it will be written and/or enforced.

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## toddaniels

> ^ Trolling fcuktard? - go hump someone else's leg


Now now bowie, there's no need for profanity. I only meant why would you take shit off a low level, paper pushing, passport stamping, immigration official? I mean IF you met the requirements why not stand your ground instead of roll over? I have argued with more than a few immigration officers when they were trying to tell me some rule that either didn't exist or that they were trying to say was written in a way it wasn't. 

I lost my fear of thais in too tight of uniforms with b/s baubles hanging off them a good while ago.. I suggest you do the same.

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## bowie

> I lost my fear of thais in too tight of uniforms with b/s baubles hanging off them a good while ago.. I suggest you do the same.


Well, there ya go danielz, azzumin zhit. 

For the record, never had a problem with Immigration, Thai nor USA, and I’ve run the gamut on both. Simple solution, forward preparation, have your shit in one sock and get the job done. One stop shopping. What is required is documented.

I prepare it, provide it, go in and then out – one stop shopping. On the occasion when you get a squeaky wheel looking for grease – standing your grounds does in fact work. 

Never had “fear” of uniforms, or anything else for that matter, (Least of all big-mouthed trolls on anonymous internet websites) and never will.

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## YourDaddy

> eating mama noodles but "living the dream" here or a combination of the above.


How Punteresque

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## lom

> eating mama noodles but "living the dream"


Not everyone can afford to dine in the Changwattana canteen every Thursday..

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## tomcat

...^555: touche...

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## cyrille

> Not everyone can afford to dine in the Changwattana canteen every Thursday..


 :smiley laughing: 


That's livin' alright.

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## Dragonfly

going there next week for an extension, maybe I will do a food court review  :Smile: 

but no Pierre Cardin to bring with me on a date, sadly

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## Humbert

> NO ONE (as in not your local immigration officer) has a clue what the new policy will be OR how it will be written and/or enforced.


Indeed. I got my retirement extension today. They accepted my US embassy letter without a peep. I told him that they would not be furnished next year and he just look at me stupidly and grunted with incomprehension.

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## Pragmatic

> just look at me stupidly and grunted with incomprehension.


 Thais do that when they agree with what you say. Saves saying 'yes'.   :Smile:

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## Humbert

I have to eat my words regarding the Kap Cheong Immigration office. I originally complained about the intrusive personal scrutiny they employed when they originally vetted me. This is my 4th extension using this office and now it takes only an hour to complete the process. I endured the traffic on Chang Wattana, the long lines extending into the lobby, the long ticket queues etc. at the Bangkok office once. I would hate to have to go through that every year even with the wonderful food court.

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## Norton

> Kap Cheong Immigration


Spent years dealing with Immigration in Bangkok and couldn't agree more with the ease of dealing with smaller Immigration offices. Faster and far less nonsense.

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## Pragmatic

I've never had dealings with BKK immigration, only Division 4 out here in Buriram, Korat and Kap Cheong, over the years, and I find them very obnoxious. Never a year goes by where there isn't some kinda problem when visiting their offices. They neither do the 90 day report by mail or online. Tuther year we all got home visits whether on a retirement extension or a marriage extension whereby we had to have two character witnesses in attendance to verify we were of good standing and gave our wives money. What the fcuks it got to do with them? Anyways I fooking hate the tossers.

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## ootai

> I've never had dealings with BKK immigration, only Division 4 out here in Buriram, Korat and Kap Cheong, over the years, and I find them very obnoxious. Never a year goes by where there isn't some kinda problem when visiting their offices. They neither do the 90 day report by mail or online. Tuther year we all got home visits whether on a retirement extension or a marriage extension whereby we had to have two character witnesses in attendance to verify we were of good standing and gave our wives money. What the fcuks it got to do with them? Anyways I fooking hate the tossers.



Pragmatic
I think it must be you. I have dealt with the same offices for a long time and never really had a problem but then I never go there with any expectations either.
As for the 90 day report online, the guy in the Buriam office told me that I could do it online if I wanted to but I haven't tried it yet and won't for another 6 months as my next trip is to get the yearly extension. As for a home visit we got one for the first time last year so i just assummed that someone was actually enforcing their policy.
I have noticed on my last 2 visits thast their new boss has them all coming to work in their uniforms and making the guys have a haircut every week (so I was told by one of them).

So maybe you should try going there with a smiley face (555).

Cheers

----------


## Norton

Only dealt with Amnat Charoen and Roiet. Never had anything like you experienced. If I had, would have got in their face. Been in Thailand 30+ years and long past the days when I can be intimidated by over inflated bureaucrats.

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## Pragmatic

> I have noticed on my last 2 visits thast their new boss has them all coming to work in their uniforms and making the guys have a haircut every week (so I was told by one of them).


 Shame he doesn't stop Khun Arcade charging 20,000 for under the table extensions. Been in Thailand 13 years and have 6-7 changes in offices over that period and I've never moved house.

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## ootai

> Shame he doesn't stop Khun Arcade charging 20,000 for under the table extensions. Been in Thailand 13 years and have 6-7 changes in offices over that period and I've never moved house.


Pragmatic
I once was there and one of the guys said to m, " you paid 20,00 for this last time didn't you?" and I said to him, " I have  never paid anything before." and he moved on.
What he was referring to was my Missus had paid them previously (15,000) because she "just wanted to get it done", we argued about that for quite a while as I didn't want to pay anything.
I was quite prepared to fly back to Australia if needed rather than pay them but she was happy to just pay and be done with it. Truth be told it was a major stuff up by me that lead to the problem in the first place. So if anybody is silly enough (like I was) to put themselves in the position of needing an under the table deal then they should pay but if it is just a matter of them doing their job then that should not require under the table payments. I don't expect that system to ever be eradicated here in Thailand.

Cheers

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## Humbert

> They neither do the 90 day report by mail or online.


As ootai pointed out, the online system has nothing to do with the local offices. You simply print out the receipt you get online and put it in your passport and you are good to go. I have done it several times along with in person reports.

I objected to the home visits and character witnesses too. They only did it once and I now think it helped to develop a relationship with them.

We've discussed this before and you seem to have had your share of problems so I understand your frustration.

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## Pragmatic

> As ootai pointed out, the online system has nothing to do with the local offices.


 I never said it had to do with the local office. I said it was 'Division 4', of which Korat, Buriram and Kap Cheong come under.

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## Dragonfly

ok so went today to the big Chattawana immigration for an extension of 30 days, 

planned the whole fucking day and was going to do a nice restaurant review for the famous food court downstair where everyone working there is going since it's been claimed to be the best food court in Thailand, if not in the world

didn't even have the time to do it,

I went in when all cleared at 13H07 after letting all the fookers in first at 13H00, didn't want to bother with a long line

I was out at 13h25 exactly, all cleared, paper processed and password renewed, that's less than 20min and I had 3 people before me

very efficient, and I didn't even have the form properly filled so had to do a few minor corrections (TM7 was updated with new info)

----------


## OhOh

> couldn't agree more with the ease of dealing with smaller Immigration offices. Faster and far less nonsense.


Seconded. A three person team at my local office. The boss who hides away in his back office and two ladies. 

We stop off close by for lunch and do a little big city shopping on the way back home.

----------


## Switch

> ok so went today to the big Chattawana immigration for an extension of 30 days, 
> 
> planned the whole fucking day and was going to do a nice restaurant review for the famous food court downstair where everyone working there is going since it's been claimed to be the best food court in Thailand, if not in the world
> 
> didn't even have the time to do it,
> 
> I went in when all cleared at 13H07 after letting all the fookers in first at 13H00, didn't want to bother with a long line
> 
> I was out at 13h25 exactly, all cleared, paper processed and password renewed, that's less than 20min and I had 3 people before me
> ...


So not only are an illiterate IT tard, you can’t even fill in simple forms properly. Could that be the reason for the 19 minute delay?  :rofl:

----------


## bowie

> Never a year goes by where there isn't some kinda problem when visiting their offices. What the fcuks it got to do with them? Anyways I fooking hate the tossers.


Well, Prag, you should take some small comfort in the fact that the wankers you deal with are victims of their own heritage. Our wealth, and their lack of it are rubbed in their faces on a daily basis. Many moon ago the long lines of Thai’s trying to get a visa to escape wrapped around the block. You don’t see ‘em today because of embassy appointment only policies.  

When I rented, my rent alone far exceeded the IO’s salary. It takes an IO ages to amass an THB 800k fortune. (personal family experience 20+ years of  scrimping and saving netted a hardworking family member a "nest egg“ fortune of almost THB 500k).

We have passports and moneys that allow us to visit and/or live in just about any country we desire to. The typical Thai has difficulty visiting/vacationing in  another country. 

So, for me, those facts are what I dwell on if I get frustrated – I can do whatever I damn well please – by comparison, they can’t do squat.

----------


## Pragmatic

^ 
So it's my fault for being too wealthy that they look down on me? If I was Thai and wealthy then they'd be wai-ing me left right and center without a doubt. Which leads me to believe they really do not want us here. And they go out of their way to show it by nit picking on genuine expats. Whereas they seem a different person if an extension is being obtained under the table. I wonder why that is?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## bowie

^ Oh, they don’t look down on you, unless you’re one of our finer examples, “drunk expat tosser” peein’ his pants while crawlin’ down the street. You, and I present an enigma, our station and status confounds them. They must confront their own failure or lack of status, when they deal with us. Too bad. 

However, realize that being an Expat, does in fact, put you several steps up on the general population of your own country. Takes a unique person with a strong resolve to successfully live in a foreign country. It is a “risky” position. We are all at the mercy of political, military, religious, economic and a society over which we have no control. Few have the balls to even try. Even fewer can make it work. 

But, it ain’t just the Thai’s, more damn city slums in the US loaded with impoverished, or, in PC terms “the monetarily challenged” folk, who don’t have the balls, or the money to even attempt visiting, never mind living in, a foreign country. They certainly can’t do it and won’t even try.

As far as under the table extensions… well, looks like the noose is tightening, and perhaps, they will become a thing of the past. We can only hope.

----------


## headhunter

> I never said it had to do with the local office. I said it was 'Division 4', of which Korat, Buriram and Kap Cheong come under.


yep division 4,korat is where i have to do my 10th extension fri.23rd.i have never had a problem with any under the table request.
my gripe with them is,when i was poorly they gave my mrs.quite a bit of agrivation over her signing for me and told her i had to attend myself [90days] i cannot do it online as my entering thailand stamp is dated 2008.i have done 9 ext.and 40+ 90day reports yet my record is not up to date.nothing has changed,same address,same departure card,retirement 800k.bht.has been untouched the past 8yrs,married for over 30yrs.[same one] so come on commander give us oldies a bit of space.
and now i cant drive i have to get someone to do the job.

----------


## headhunter

> ^ 
> So it's my fault for being too wealthy that they look down on me? If I was Thai and wealthy then they'd be wai-ing me left right and center without a doubt. Which leads me to believe they really do not want us here. And they go out of their way to show it by nit picking on genuine expats. Whereas they seem a different person if an extension is being obtained under the table. I wonder why that is?


I have to agree with you PRAG. maybe its the change from 2k. [100bht] I tell them to keep seems to work for me,as I am always glad to get out as quick as possible,the last 2 ext.same officer same 100bht.in the evelope,but I have been at the old imms.places where agents have been in front of me with bags full of passports,unfilled forms and HEAPS OF GOODIES.lets see if this stops FRIDAY.

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## Humbert

> I never said it had to do with the local office. I said it was 'Division 4', of which Korat, Buriram and Kap Cheong come under





> I've never had dealings with BKK immigration, *only Division 4 out here in Buriram, Korat and Kap Cheong, over the years, and I find them very obnoxious. Never a year goes by where there isn't some kinda problem when visiting their offices.* They neither do the 90 day report by mail or online.


I guess I misunderstood. When you said offices I thought you meant Buriram, Korat and Kap Cheong offices. Apparently you are dealing with the division office headquarters and not the local offices as I said.

----------


## Pragmatic

> i cant drive i have to get someone to do the job.


Which leads me to ask. Sorry for going off topic. If ones health deteriorates whereby one cannot go to ones immigration office what are the rules? Not that I'm ill but my missus doesn't know what the procedure is.   :Smile:

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## Pragmatic

> I guess I misunderstood. When you said offices I thought you meant Buriram, Korat and Kap Cheong offices. Apparently you are dealing with the division office headquarters and not the local offices as I said.


 It is easily misunderstood due to the amount of times Division 4 has relocated over the last 13 years. 13 years ago there was only one office to do your extension, Kap Cheong. Now there are 4 offices in Division 4. I now use either of the 2 offices in Buriram.

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## headhunter

> Which leads me to ask. Sorry for going off topic. If ones health deteriorates whereby one cannot go to ones immigration office what are the rules? Not that I'm ill but my missus doesn't know what the procedure is.


many times I have asked the same,i do know on another forum a well respected member has to go there in a wheelchair,and others have said ambulance's have turned up with patients.last yr.when I was having seizure's every day till new meds.stopped them [may 2018] they wouldn't help my.mrs at all.eg.doctors letter on the day of the visit.

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## Pragmatic

^
Because this is going off topic I'll start a new thread.

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## Norton

> If ones health deteriorates whereby one cannot go to ones immigration office what are the rules?


Don't know if there are specific rules but years back at Suan Phlu they allowed someone with a signed letter giving permission from the person getting the extension along with all the required forms pre signed by applicant.

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## Pragmatic

^
New thread started.

----------


## Humbert

I received this email from Democrats Abroad Thailand yesterday concerning the upcoming visa procedure issues.

Dear Americans Abroad in Thailand,

Happy belated Thanksgiving, I hope you all had a chance to enjoy the holiday with family and friends.

As a service to our members and their American friends, DA Thailand is providing a report compiled by our DAT Vice-Chair Gary Suwannarat, who recently attended a town hall organized on November 20, 2018, by the US Consulate in Chiang Mai.

Please note that this is provided to alert members to upcoming changes but does not constitute legal advice; questions about your particular situation and circumstances should be addressed to Thai Immigration officers or to immigration lawyers.

This affects those living in Thailand on retirement visas. US Consular Offices (as well as those of the UK and Australia) will no longer notarize income certifications after December 31, 2018.

Gary Suwannarat’s report is as follows:

Chiang Mai US Consul General Jennifer Harhigh and overall Thailand Consul General Timothy Scherer spoke to some 200 Americans concerned about this upcoming change in income certification procedures for Americans applying for retirement visas, or renewal of an expiring retirement visa. This impacts many of the estimated 70,000-75,000 Americans on long-term visas in Thailand, some 20,000 of whom are served by the Chiang Mai Consulate, covering the CM Consular District from Chiang Rai in the north to Pichit, Pitasanuloke and Tak in the south.

Scherer indicated that there is no change in Thai law. However, as part of a global review of US consular operations, it was found that US consular offices in Thailand issue an unusually high number of income affidavits. This was raised in consular dialogue with Thai authorities, who then realized that the notarized affidavit affirms only that the named citizen appeared before a US Consular officer, but does not constitute proof of income, as required by Thai law as detailed in Police Order 777/2551, which governs visa approvals. (See partial translated text below.) Similar changes are reported regarding the UK and Australia, and in the offing for citizens of other countries who have significant populations of retired persons living in Thailand.

The US Embassy and the Immigration Division held discussions regarding how to ease the transition to new regulations, resulting in the Thai Immigration Division extending the validity of notarized income certification for 6 months from date of notarization. Notarization obtained by December 31, 2018 will be accepted until end-June, 2019. (Note: the Consular calendar in Chiang Mai is filling up fast.)

Follow-up comments indicated that the Chiang Mai Immigration Office earlier this year instituted a requirement of proof of income, supporting the Consular-notarized income affidavit. (Note: My contact with Chiang Mai Immigration officials indicates that they want both the Consulate notarization and back-up documentation.) Scherer acknowledged that Immigration Offices around Thailand exercise discretion in applying regulations, so there may be some inconsistencies.

One commenter said he had asked his US bank to provide a statement which summed his variable income for the year, reported as average monthly income, which was accepted for retirement visa purposes. Scherer stressed the importance of obtaining bank documents that, like this case, indicate as clearly as possible that income meets the Thai criteria.
 Scherer further indicated that Embassy officials are working with Thai Immigration officials to familiarize them with financial reporting formats of the Social Security Administration, Veterans Affairs and major firms managing IRAs. The value of using standard income and retirement income reports (1099 and 1099-R) was mentioned.

Audience members applauded the suggestion that the Embassy work with the government to get acceptance of forms with personal identifying information not required for visa purposes redacted or blacked out as protection against identity theft.

The "combination" method (including both monthly income and Thai bank deposits) will still be accepted for justification of individual retirement visa extensions. For spousal visa extensions, inquire of Thai Immigration authorities or an Immigration lawyer.

Questions and discussion indicated that ANY source of income could be considered, not just pension income. In meetings with Thai Immigration, the U.S. officials have stressed that Americans have many sources of income (many not at regular intervals) to support themselves in retirement -- rental income, investments, withdrawals from trusts, and much more in additional to traditional government pensions like SS and VA. There was one report of someone in Chiang Mai receiving income at irregular intervals, so he printed out all deposits to his U.S. bank account over the course of a year and showed Thai immigration how it was more than 800,000 baht a year and this was accepted.

There was concern from several expat-expat married couples who each have been maintaining individual retirement visas, where one receives less than 65,000 baht and the other more than 65,000 baht, but the total exceeded 130,000 baht. Would it be possible for the wife to obtain a dependent or "family" visa? U.S. officials were unable to answer this question about how Thai immigration will handle dependent visas going forward. Again, speak to a Thai Immigration official or immigration lawyer.

Thai Police Order 777/255: Unofficial translation (available online):
•Retirement visa application requires proof of income of not less than 65,000/month OR 
•Thai bank account deposit of baht 800,000 at least 2 months prior to INITIALLY applying for a retirement visa; at least 3 months prior to application for retirement visa renewal OR 
•Annual income plus bank account deposit totaling not less than baht 800,000 as of the filing date for retirement visa. 



Thank you to Gary for volunteering to go to the meeting and file this report to share with the DAT membership. So, to summarize, the only real advice that DAT can provide to you is the following:
1.Get the income affirmation notarized by the Embassy before year end if your visa expires before June 30, 3019. (Note that appointment slots at the consulate are filling up fast.) 
2.Ensure others you know are also made aware of these changes. 
3.For advice about specific cases, either talk to a Thai Immigration officer or an immigration lawyer 

I hope that this is helpful to our members who have retired in Thailand on a retirement visa and will be affected by this situation.

With best wishes,

Phil Robertson 
 Chairperson, Democrats Abroad Thailand (DAT)
 Email: DemocratsAbroadThailand@gmail.com

Democrats Abroad Thailand
http://www.democratsabroad.org/

----------


## Dragonfly

so in short, 

some overzealous US employee in Washington noticed some odd volume for affidavits in Thailand, and start asking questions, and that lead him or her to Thai immigration authorities who are then told by said US employee that the affidavit have no use for income verification

You bet the Thais got angry over this, and all the fuckup brought to you by another American Pentagon employee  :Smile:

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## Switch

Immigration Offices around Thailand exercise discretion in applying regulations, so there may be some inconsistencies.

Lulz

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## Norton

> Immigration Offices around Thailand exercise discretion in applying regulations, so there may be some inconsistencies.
> 
> Lulz


Always. I posted earlier that the Roiet office will accept a Thai bank statement showing money transfers in that average 65,000 baht per month over a 1 year period.

Everyone should go to their office and find out what they will accept.

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## headhunter

i still dont know what everyone are huffin &puffin about,every immigration office excepts a bank letter/with your acc.bank pass book showing an up to date balance,so a pass book showing a monthly amount being sent to your bank should be no different to one showing a lump sum as long as its 65,000bht.or the tuther per.month.so a statement from your country that shows the required amount or the thai bank statement is all thats needed.

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## Dragonfly94

It's only the liars and fraudsters who have shit their pants!

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## Norton

> It's only the liars and fraudsters who have shit their pants!


Agree 100%.

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## Humbert

> Always. I posted earlier that the Roiet office will accept a Thai bank statement showing money transfers in that average 65,000 baht per month over a 1 year period. 
> Everyone should go to their office and find out what they will accept.


Absolutely. This will affect those who were able to use the embassy letters without other proof of income. Those of us furnishing both income verification from bank deposits AND an embassy letter will actually probably find the whole process easier.

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## Norton

Will save me a trip to BKK. All good as far as I am concerned.

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## Dragonfly

> It's only the liars and fraudsters who have shit their pants!


looks like it,

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## bowie

> It's only the liars and fraudsters who have shit their pants!


on the basis of the amount of air play this topic receives must be a ton of 'em. 

certainly keepin' the "under-the-tablers" dancin'

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## OhOh

> I received this email from Democrats Abroad Thailand yesterday concerning the upcoming visa procedure issues.


Thank you for the informative post, most welcome.




> Scherer further indicated that Embassy officials are working with Thai Immigration officials to familiarize them with financial reporting formats of the Social Security Administration, Veterans Affairs and major firms managing IRAs. The value of using standard income and retirement income reports (1099 and 1099-R) was mentioned.


It appears the US Embassy have started a list of possible documents the Thais would find acceptable "verification" of "income". One wonders when the UK embassy will, create and have accepted by the Thai authorities,  a similar list.




> so a statement from your country that shows the required amount or the thai bank statement is all thats needed.


Care to state the number of foreign banks statement and passbook designs, your local TIO will find acceptable?




> Those of us furnishing both income verification from bank deposits


True, if a Thai bank, will foreign bank statements be as acceptable?

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## pseudolus

> It appears the US Embassy have started a list of possible documents the Thais would find acceptable "verification" of "income". One wonders when the UK embassy will, create and have accepted by the Thai authorities, a similar list.


Never. They really genuinely do not give a flying fuck about UK people abroad.

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## toddaniels

> i still dont know what everyone are huffin &puffin about,every immigration office excepts a bank letter/with your acc.bank pass book showing an up to date balance,so a pass book showing a monthly amount being sent to your bank should be no different to one showing a lump sum as long as its 65,000bht.or the tuther per.month.so a statement from your country that shows the required amount or the thai bank statement is all thats needed.


Sadly you are mistaken in your sweeping generalization of what you imagine will work as far as monthly income. 

RIGHT NOW <- read and understand that okay? There is NO way to show deposits of 65K baht a month into your account as a way to meet the financial requirement if you are using the income method WITHOUT using the income affidavit from your consulate as well, period, end of story. 

There is NOT one single immigration office in the country that will accept monthly transfers in from abroad of 65K as proof. 

They ALL require the notarized statement from your consulate AND truth be told it's the consulate letter that carries the weight. 

Also no one knows what the new policy will be, how it will be written, or more importantly how it will be implemented across the 75 or so immigration offices in the country.

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## tomcat

...here's an idea: Immigration produces a form (more paper!) to be used nationwide that law-abiding foreigners can take to a bank for income certification. It will of course be decorated with an official bank stamp and an impressive signature and returned to officialdom as proof of overseas deposits that satisfy the monthly/yearly income requirements...

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## Norton

> Also no one knows what the new policy will be


Indeed. All speculation so far. Even if some such as I have checked with local office.

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## headhunter

[QUOTE=toddaniels;3863446]Sadly you are mistaken in your sweeping generalization of what you imagine will work as far as monthly income. 

RIGHT NOW <- read and understand that okay? There is NO way to show deposits of 65K baht a month into your account as a way to meet the financial requirement if you are using the income method WITHOUT using the income affidavit from your consulate as well, period, end of story. 

There is NOT one single immigration office in the country that will accept monthly transfers in from abroad of 65K as proof. 

I don't understand when you say,NOT ONE SINGLE IMM.OFFICE WOULD EXCEPT MONTHLY TRANS.FROM ABROAD AS PROOF.

if a bank statement showing the transfers which is shown in your thai.bank pass book,ISNT THAT PROOF.

if money is sent from abroad to Thailand someone has got to have a record.
my uk.pensions are sent to my receiving bank in the uk.i only have to go online and get a print out of the transactions THERE'S YOUR PROOF.
as I only do one trans.every yr.there if I needed to give the proof to imm.ITS THERE IN BLACK AND WHITE IN MY THAI BANK ACC.PASS BOOK.
my retirement ext.amount has been in a fixed acc.for over 8yrs.never been a problem,but I have been asked what I live on,so I show them my other pass book with an entry every yr.with a monthly amount drawn out of it as proof of what I live on.
so TD.i don't understand what you are trying to say that imm.wont except proof from an acc.abroad.or one showing for eg.65k.bht.sent to Thailand by your income provider every month.a letter from your consulate is no different to a letter from a thai bank.

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## Dragonfly

For Americans, the Federal form 1099 is actually a good document to report your income to Thai immigration authorities

and even a W-9 if you work freelance,

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## Norton

> Federal form 1099


Is indeed.

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## bowie

> I don't understand when you say,NOT ONE SINGLE IMM.OFFICE WOULD EXCEPT MONTHLY TRANS.FROM ABROAD AS PROOF.


hmm... Just another one of them "sweeping generalizations"

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## OhOh

> For Americans, the Federal form 1099 is actually a good document to report your income to Thai immigration authorities


It appears to be a declaration from the funds provider to the recipient. Does one receive multiple 1099s from each income source?

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## Norton

> Does one receive multiple 1099s from each income source?


Yes..

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## OhOh

Thanks, which presumably the tax officials receive a copy? Do the tax authorities issue an annual income statement to the recipient, showing gross income (from all sources), taxes deducted and allowances to arrive at a net annual sum?

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## Norton

> which presumably the tax officials receive a copy?


They do.





> Do the tax authorities issue an annual income statement to the recipient, showing gross income, taxes deducted and allowances to arrive at a net annual sum?


No. Individual fills out and submits a tax form (1040) to the IRS which uses the 1099s as a base for their income.

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## Humbert

> There is NOT one single immigration office in the country that will accept monthly transfers in from abroad of 65K as proof.


If you are an American living in Thailand the only way I know of to receive payments from US Social Security is through a dedicated Direct Deposit account from Bangkok Bank. No other Thai bank provides this service. The pass book is clearly marked Direct Deposit Account. It cannot be used like a regular savings account for normal banking business. I cannot understand why some sort of additional verification from Bangkok Bank could not provide verification.

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## pseudolus

This really is a clusterfeck isn't it? 

Embassys want to save money (getting rid of people and having less visitors basically so they can get on with their real purpose - corruption) so they point out to the Thais that the Income cert is really no such thing. Thais can't really be bothered to work out what to do instead and probably think "well let the old duffers stick cash in the bank and sit it there  - rich farangs no problem for them" and the embassy which doesn't care 2 figs about people carry on regardless, no doubt chuckling over their lunch time Singapore Slings and caviar blinis that the hoards of sweaty duffers will not descend on them. 

There will be a way round it though eventually - the UK Embassy stopped certifying wedding certificates a while ago which caused havoc for anyone wanting to move to another country like Spain, France, Italy etc. but a work around was found, with the world again saying "British twats -  those shits in the embassy do not give a flying fuck about the Brits abroad.".

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## OhOh

> the IRS which uses the 1099s as a base for their income


Does the IRS send out an annual account document then, to the taxpayer?

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## Norton

No...

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## mudcat

Actually the IRS will provide a transcript of filed taxes, but it is only line numbers and amounts so it would be of limited use to immigration which after all is more concerned with money coming into Thailand.

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## bowie

Problems with the American tax documents is they do not designate where or what the funds are used for. The, uhm... "in a Thai Bank" requirement?, as supporting documentation from a formal source, yes. Another point is USA taxpayer stuff is for the prior year Dec 31 tax year closes, reports are due Apr 15. 

Jury's still out on the Thai's definition of "evidence" or "acceptable evidence" and/or "in a Thai Bank", etc., etc. Lots of "questions"

Discussion a few years ago with a Thai Attorney concerning the regulatory requirement(s), my question(s) and his concentration was based on the definition of a "pension" (401k/IRA's) in his professional opinion did not satisfy the Thai definition of a "pension". 

Prag had an immigration runaround based on the difference between a "Credit Union" or a "Bank". Really quite subjective stuff. The regulations are written in Thai. The IO's interpret the regulations, where does that leave foreigners? At the mercy of the IO sitting behind the desk when your number is called. 

Even when a new set of requirements/regulations/guidelines, or a handbook, or FAQ's on the website are provided, it will still be up to the IO to administer and/or enforce the regulation(s) as he/she sees fit. Good luck trying to argue your interpretation over theirs. They'll win.

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## toddaniels

> my retirement ext.amount has been in a fixed acc.for over 8yrs.never been a problem


The way you're meeting the financial requirements ISN'T by transferring money into the country every month but by having the 800K baht in a fixed deposit account.

Seeing as there is NO requirement to show HOW you live here, you showing your other bank account with transfers in means nothing as far as meeting the requirements to get a yearly extension. 

One last time, RIGHT NOW, <-(as of last thursday at the head immigration office in Bangkok), IF you're not using banked money for the proof of funds for your extensions the ONLY way to prove income from abroad is the consulate notary letter. They will accept NO other documentation, period, end of story. 

NO NEW POLICY HAS BEEN WRITTEN  and all the speculation on what they might or might not accept for proof is just that, neither you nor the goof-ball immigration officer you talked to at the office you use has the slightest clue what the new policy will be OR when it will be implemented. 

People have already been denied extensions showing their monthly transfers into the country, showing their year end tax statements, showing their yearly pension pay out statement <- ALL those people were told to go to their consulate and get an affidavit of income from abroad notary letter. Once they had the letter they had their extensions approved.

I can find NOT ONE SINGLE case in the entire country where someone posted they got a yearly extension by ONLY showing monthly transfers into their thai bank account from overseas.. You would imagine, as much of a kerfuffle as this has caused, someone who did it would actually write about it. All I can find is denial after denial when people TRIED to show deposits and were knocked back without the affidavit from their consulate.

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## tomcat

...so, to summarize: Immigration isn't happy with its own retirement extension rules and has yet to issue guidance on what will satisfy their bureaucratic needs...advice: stay tuned...

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## Pragmatic

> you showing your other bank account with transfers in means nothing as far as meeting the requirements to get a yearly extension.


 To immigration it shows you are not working. That is what they told me when they wanted to see a bank account with movement in it, on top of my 'fixed term' account. Nothing really to say that you are not financially supported by your wife.   :Confused:

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## tomcat

> That is what they told me


...someone needs to take "they" by the ears and shake its little head...

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## Pragmatic

> ...someone needs to take "they" by the ears and shake its little head...


 Unfortunately nobody really wants to be the 'hero' and upset the apple cart. I did know a farang, now dead, that upset the apple cart in Korat. They wouldn't let him in their office and made his wife do all his reporting/extensions.

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## toddaniels

> ...so, to summarize: Immigration isn't happy with its own retirement extension rules and has yet to issue guidance on what will satisfy their bureaucratic needs...advice: stay tuned...


I VOTE THIS BEST ANSWER ON THE WHOLE THREAD  :rofl:

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## lom

^
I see no reason to believe that immigration aren't happy with their own rules, what they weren't happy with was the non-check by embassies when issuing the letter. There are more countries in Europe than UK and Denmark, none of the others has announced that they will stop issuing the letter.

What make you think immigration are the one to change the rules? It's not their problem..

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## tomcat

> They wouldn't let him in their office and made his wife do all his reporting/extensions.


...we have a winner!...

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## Humbert

> One last time, RIGHT NOW, <-(as of last thursday at the head immigration office in Bangkok), IF you're not using banked money for the proof of funds for your extensions the ONLY way to prove income from abroad is the consulate notary letter. They will accept NO other documentation, period, end of story.  
> NO NEW POLICY HAS BEEN WRITTEN  and all the speculation on what they might or might not accept for proof is just that, neither you nor the goof-ball immigration officer you talked to at the office you use has the slightest clue what the new policy will be OR when it will be implemented.





> I can find NOT ONE SINGLE case in the entire country where someone posted they got a yearly extension by ONLY showing monthly transfers into their thai bank account from overseas.


No disrespect intended but if you are so knowledgable and well connected why don't you contact some of the mucky mucks in Thai Immigration and ask them for a timetable concerning how and when they are going to deal with this.

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## Dragonfly

they are not going to deal with this, it's the farangs fault, let them deal with it

as suspected, some overzealous anti-Trump DoS officer put a wrench in the whole thing, and now it blew up to their face, and Thai immigration can't ignore it

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## jabir

Jomtien IO yesterday, will only accept 800k in bank for the required period, or embassy letter until mid-2019, IF it becomes official whatever that means. 

One foot gone and they're aiming at the other.

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## OhOh

^

Was that  an official TI document being handed out/pinned to the wall or an officers verbal opinion as of yesterday?

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## Norton

> Jomtien IO yesterday, will only accept 800k in bank for the required period, or embassy letter until mid-2019


Established early on. That's it. Anything other is speculation until Immigration states specifically what will be accepted after mid 2019.

This thread is getting way overdone. Be calm and wait.  :Wink:

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## jabir

^^
Verbal, meaningless but scary. Nothing pinned/official as yet, the monkeys are still beating up keyboards trying to make sense of the Joke.

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## Norton

> trying to make sense of the Joke.


Given the nick name of the no nonsense new immigration chief is "Big Joke" sure there is panic within the ranks.  :Smile:

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## rickschoppers

I went into the Udon Thani immigration office today and filed for a retirement extension. I showed an income affidavit which was accepted and I was in and out in 20 minutes with my one year extension in my passport. While there, the IO told me they would not accept an affidavit next year for my next extension, which I already knew. I asked him if they would accept proof of at least 65,000 THB per month income next year and he said NO! Only 800,000 THB in the bank at least 3 months. I don't really think that was the final word since the Thai government has not made an official announcement to date, so as has been already said, STAY TUNED!!

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## Pragmatic

> This thread is getting way overdone. Be calm and wait.

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## Humbert

https://th.usembassy.gov/wp-content/..._affidavit.pdf

I  would urge Americans on this thread to read the PDF link. The American mission in Thailand is working with US Social Security to provide methods that will facilitate proof required by Thai Immigration.

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## tomcat

> The American mission in Thailand is working with US Social Security to provide methods that will facilitate proof required by Thai Immigration.


...would love to be a fly on the wall during those conversations...

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## Humbert

> ...would love to be a fly on the wall during those conversations...


I posted the link because I could not copy and paste from the pdf. If you read the text it indicates that US SS has approved Thailand for inclusion in the I
DD (International Direct Deposit Program) which will be implemented in the first quarter of next year. This will make it easier for Thai Immigration officials to verify income.

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## toddaniels

> No disrespect intended but if you are so knowledgable and well connected why don't you contact some of the mucky mucks in Thai Immigration and ask them for a timetable concerning how and when they are going to deal with this.


Being knowledgeable and "well known" <- (meaning the officers know me from my many hundreds of trips out there over the years) as I am I DO ask at the immigration office every Thursday when I'm there waiting in line for people, filing 90 day reports, etc.  

I go right into the section (L-1) that issues extensions that can use the affidavit of income letter (marriage, raising half-thai kids, retirement) AND ask them IF there is any new policy out about the discontinuing of the consulate notary letters of income. 

EVERY week since the consulates announced they're stopping the head immigration officer in that section has said, IF your extension expires within 6 months after the new year GET the embassy notary NOW and use it next year. <- That is the official way they're going to handle it in the beginning AT THIS TIME. By that I mean the police order that says embassy notaries are good for 6 months is still in effect and the letters will be accepted for use during their validity AT THIS TIME <- meaning it could change at any time.

Last week (which was about the 6th time I've checked) when the section chief saw me walking into the back area of section L-1 she shouted out "NO NEW NEWS!" in english. I complimented her on her diction and clarity (because she totally nailed it) and walked out. That's as recent of information as I have and she's as high a person as you can ask at Chaengwattana in that section without going all the way down to the old immigration office where the heads of ALL the divisions of immigration offices in the country have their offices. 

I'd say seeing as the bangkok immigration office probably does more extensions based on retirement, marriage, raising half thai kids in a day than most offices do in a week IF anyone is gonna be dialed in to a new policy change it'll be them..  

Believe me as soon as there is an official policy change it will sweep the inter-web, or at least sweep the very very tiny part of the inter-web that is concerned about things visa/extension related in this rinky-dink, insignificant, developing third world country.

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## Humbert

It's pretty clear that whatever new procedures the Thais adopt they will not be as simple to implement as the embassy letter certification system. My post above referring to the International Direct Deposit program only affects Americans. A procedure that involves variation based on every country's internal bureaucratic processes would be very difficult for Thais to administrate. It is difficult to imagine that the solutions to this problem will not take a very long time and there is little doubt that many people with deep roots in the country will be adversly affected.

----------


## tomcat

> It is difficult to imagine that the solutions to this problem will not take a very long time and there is little doubt that many people with deep roots in the country will be adversly affected.


...discovering that, Immigration officials will probably be reduced to tears...

----------


## headhunter

another problem that big j.might chuck in the hat is,the 65k.bht.per month confirmation,what are they going to use as the base,EG.uk.pound 4months ago 65k.bht.was 1,450gbp.today its 1,590gbp.thats a fair leap if they [imm.]base it on todays rate.over 12months that could be around 10%.more.

----------


## cisco999

> Thai Visa forum allowed 26 post's on their thread and
> This topic is now closed to further replies.
> No explanation as to why.


Probably against some forum rule.

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## bowie

> ...discovering that, Immigration officials will probably be reduced to tears...


copious quantities of tears of laughter and mirth are resounding throughout the hallowed halls of immigration  :rofl:  


On a more serious note, Thai Immigration FAQ says go get an income letter from your Embassy. Some Embassy's say that Thai Immigration wants them to "verify" the income. A task that is beyond their capabilities - just too damn complex. 

Easy way out for Thai Immigration is to follow the Embassies lead saying it is just too complex to verify monthly income(s). However, you can still qualify for your annual extension with an aged lump sum deposit.  

Sends the ball back into the court of the Embassies that will not issue an income verification document.

The art of finger-pointing, well practiced

----------


## jabir

> another problem that big j.might chuck in the hat is,the 65k.bht.per month confirmation,what are they going to use as the base,EG.uk.pound 4months ago 65k.bht.was 1,450gbp.today its 1,590gbp.thats a fair leap if they [imm.]base it on todays rate.over 12months that could be around 10%.more.


They use a set rate that's periodically adjusted.

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## OhOh

> They use a set rate that's periodically adjusted.


The exchange rate is determined on the day of application, which currently doesn't appear to be stopping the drop. So as normal, plan accordingly

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## toddaniels

> The exchange rate is determined on the day of application, which currently doesn't appear to be stopping the drop. So as normal, plan accordingly


Careful with broad brush statements like that  :Shock:  

I was at the immigration office in Bangkok with a friend from the US who was using the affidavit of income from abroad letter as proof of funds for a yearly extension based on being over 50 (retirement). The immigration officer used 30-1 as the exchange rate and when I questioned her she said "Up to me..." (she was a pretentious pig  :34: ).

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## jabir

30 must be easier on her calculator than 32.

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## OhOh

^

Yes, I should have added, "by the IO, using any method they choose".

 :Smile:

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## Switch

Four times in 10 years, on reaching that point in the process, the IO has asked me, “What is the current exchange rate.”?

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## Norton

Roiet use the USD: 50-100 rate on Bangkok Bank site.

https://www.bangkokbank.com/en/Perso...Exchange-Rates
USD: 50-100

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## bowie

Topic is interesting, both for those impacted, or soon to be impacted and for us “spectators”. 

I’m a spectator, got THB 900k nested in a Bangkok Bank savings account in my name, only. Monthly deposits of THB 100k into our joint account. Retirement extensions. 800k lump sum deposits been idle less the THB 15/mo. service charge and the interest deposits. Get a “bank letter” and have never been asked “what I live on”. 

I use a real live licensed Thai Attorney for all my stuff. Been using him for years, he’s part of a three-lawyer group of attorneys and financial folk, CPA’s etc. The handle immigration, real estate, investments, taxes, licensing, etc. and cater to foreigners doing business in Thailand.

A few years ago, in preparation of my move we discussed “funds” into Thailand. Discussion came down to “definitions”. His professional opinion, funds from an IRA or 401k would NOT satisfy the Thai definition of a “pension”. (Pragmatic, as shown above, got a runaround on the difference between a “bank” and a “credit union” – again definitions, they are both financial institutions providing the same services, but…)

Visited my Attorney today to sign papers. As I was there, I inquired about his thoughts (not his opinion or work product). So, his thoughts mean nothing. But, the Immigration Attorneys are not flustered, upset, concerned, or even wondering, what the new regulations will be. He did say there will be new regulations, and, basically, I/we will comply with them. 

He spun again into the definition of a “pension”. Got a few military friends using military pensions and social security as their “pension” for the monthly deposit, using the “Income Affidavit” from the US Embassy. When I spun into his thoughts on the new regulations, again, he hadn’t given it much, if any, prior thought (hasn’t affected any of his clients). I asked what he believed Immigration will do. He figures they will rely on the “Bank Letter”. 

My Attorney had little (or no) interest in the subject at all. In a nutshell – “when the new regulations are provided, we will comply with them”. 

Actually, he was pretty straightforward. Whatever Immigration requires, you/we will provide. 

Not by choice, by necessity. 


My thoughts – Thai Immigration cannot provide income verification services – far too many countries and avenues of revenue. They currently accept “Bank Deposit Guarantee Letters” from a Thai bank and “Income Verification Letters” from Embassies. A “few” Embassies have stated that they will no longer provide “Income Verification Letters”. Citizens of those few countries can still use a “Bank Deposit Guarantee Letter”. 


So, this lengthy post contributes nothing of value, other than the fact that I did discuss the issue with a Thai Attorney.

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## tomcat

> this lengthy post contributes nothing of value


...disagree: I now know the name of the document currently accepted by immi is a Bank Deposit Guarantee Letter...and I can get one from Bangkok Bank...thanks!...

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## toddaniels

> My Attorney had little (or no) interest in the subject at all. In a nutshell  when the new regulations are provided, we will comply with them.


You could have stopped with that statement. and the one where he said there will be new regulations

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## Humbert

> and the one where he said there will be new regulations


So now your assertion is that there will be no guidance on this issue from the Thai Immigration authorities?

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## Switch

> So now your assertion is that there will be no guidance on this issue from the Thai Immigration authorities?


They will avoid making a decision for as long as possible. When they do promulgate the new regulations, you can be sure it will be in their best interests and no one else’s.
I thought you had been here long enough to realise that?  :Smile:

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## bowie

> They will avoid making a decision for as long as possible. When they do promulgate the new regulations


New regs won't mean a thing unless they change this one sentence "A one-year extension of stay shall be granted *at the discretion of the immigration officer* to the foreigner as long as he or she meets the above requirements." 


Thailand Visa Information : Non-Immigrant Visa "O-A" (Long Stay) - Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Kingdom of Thailand

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## rickschoppers

So as of today, "NO NEW NEWS." :-)

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## Pragmatic

> So as of today, "NO NEW NEWS."

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## toddaniels

You guys are correct, it was again a No New News day, BUT they did say there is a 'draft' of something or other fixing to come out after the new year.

They did confirm (for the 10th time) that IF your consulate was discontinuing the affidavit of income from abroad notary letters but you got one before they stopped and your extension was in the next 6 months, they'd still accept the letter. 

take care all, have a safe and happy new year

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## Norton

> there is a 'draft' of something or other fixing to come out after the new year.


As I do every year, had a Christmas dinner at home with lots of folks attending. Had 2 immigration friends come. They also comfirmed a draft was being prepared but as with most anything, Bangkok aka the center of the universe, has kept the provincials in the dark as to details.

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