#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Farming & Gardening In Thailand >  >  A Visit to Dalton's Fish Farm.

## mellow

For many years I have been thinking of doing some fish farming. 
I read a lot of literature from the library and the internet, but I never had, nor made the time, to actually visit a fish farm. 
We have now been living here in the LOS full time for the last 6 yrs. and are pretty well settled in. 
We are doing fine, but the wife is looking to do some business and of course increase our income. 
We had discussed fish farming many times but never made any further effort. 
After reading the threads here on TD, I contacted Dalton, who invited me over to take a look around. 

The wife , son, and I, got in the pick up and headed for Dalton's Fish Farm. 
It's a nice easy drive from our place, and when you get off the main highway, you drive along this giant reservoir, which if you didn't know that, looks like a beautiful lake. 
My wife asked a cow herder for directions to Dalton's farm but the herder didn't know anything about it. A phone call took care of that, and Dalton informed me to continue to the next village, and he would meet us at the main road. 
We continued on and drove to the village where I also saw my first bunch of fish cages, made of PVC ,floating on the reservoir (lake). This was a pretty good size set up and appeared to be well tended.

Dalton showed up on a motorbike, and we followed him to his farm, which was a few minutes away. 
Never having seen a recirculating system much less a real fish farm, it was quite an eye opener. 
One system uses these giant biofilters, there are 3 or 4 of them in parallel and they shoot up about 5 meters up in the air with dual industrial water pumps, pumping water into them out of the settlement tank. 
The water being redistributed to these giant circular cement tanks, which are 3 abreast in a semi enclosed building. 
There were about 35 or 40 tanks all lined up in this manner. These tanks are about 3.5 meters across the center by 1.5 meters tall.

I had about a million questions which I wanted to ask Dalton, but they seemed to have escaped me at the moment. Dalton was very good at answering the questions I did put forth though, and another cool part is that the farm is expanding, and therefore I could see the underground pipping system being built along with new tank construction. 
I had many questions about this construction phase which were answered quite readily. After the tour we all sat in the shade by the house , ate some ice cream. 
I got into some good conversations with Dalton, my wife was chatting with his wife, and my son was running around all over the place. 

This was before yesterday, and many aspects of the fish farm have been going through my head. We don't have any intentions of doing anything on the scale of Dalton's project, but would like a to be able to produce about a 1000 fish per month, year round, eventually. 
Dalton was very nice to allow us visit him, and to have taken the time to show us around. 
He also assured me that he will answer any questions, which I may have in the future, as we put this plan into action. 
This is really great for us, having such a source of information, with a real live working model, that is growing and successful. 

Thanks Dalton, for the tour and your willingness to share your knowledge. I have been wondering though, how I'm gonna talk the wife into climbing up the biofilters, remove the media, clean it and put it back in place.

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## Texpat

Nice post. Dalton's a top bloke. Greens for both.

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## Sir Burr

Hope you have greened him.

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## mrsquirrel

Did Dalton eat any ice-cream? I thought he was on a diet. :dev+ang:

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## hillbilly

Great contribution. Thanks!  :Smile:

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## mellow

Yes, he ate ice cream, but it's been very hot.

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## obsidian

did you take a translator?

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## blackgang

Well where is the fooking pictures??

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## Reaper

Where are the photos?

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## Dalton

> Thanks Dalton, for the tour and your willingness to share your knowledge.


It was all my pleassure to show you the farm, it nice when people really are interested in how it all works. Next time I'll show you our feed-mill and nursery-ponds... :Smile: 





> I have been wondering though, how I'm gonna talk the wife into climbing up the biofilters, remove the media, clean it and put it back in place.


With that one are you all on your own  :Smile:

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## Dalton

> Well where is the fooking pictures??


They are under one of the fish-farms threads  :Smile:

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## Dalton

> did you take a translator?


Not needed, Mellows Danish was perfect... :Smile:

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## mellow

It looks as though I will have to visit Dalton's Fish Farm again. We have been clearing up a piece of land at our place to make room for the recirculating system, which will have 12 circular tanks, measuring 3 meters across the center, approximately 1.5 meters in height. At least that is the current plan. Drafting it on paper, these tanks will fit into a 15x12 meter area nicely, with plenty of room to move around the tanks, without being too crowded to work, etc. The tanks will be lined 3 across and 4 down. We will have to put in cement support beams for the roof also, including footings. The sediment tank and the bio filter will run along one side, although I haven't decided which side yet. Since having visited Dalton, there have been many new questions in my mind about this construction, and I will have to tap into his expertise as well as his experience for this set up. This will hopefully save us from some of the problems he has experienced, as well as to facilitate our labor, once the project is completed. I will also have to get a design for the for the settlement tank and the bio filter. I am also hoping that Dalton will make the time to stop over, and overlook the site to discuss the best location for the settlement tank, and bio filter. Afterwards I will have to get some estimates from several construction companies as to the cost of doing much of the heavy work. Will also have to look into having another bore hole done, to supply water for this system.  I am hoping these 12 tanks will be enough to supply my wife with enough fish, to keep her future fish store running, and stoked year round. Dalton's project of course is immense, but then he will be a supplier on a very large scale, and is probably a force to be reckoned with in the industry around here already, especially due to having a high quality product. Anyways, the shrubs and trees have been cleared away for the most part, and so far this is the easiest and cheapest part of the whole thing. Posting a couple of photos of the area, I hope they come out. Had to use my son's phone camera that he got for Xmas, because I don't have one.

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## Dalton

^ It looks great, and the setup you have in mind sounds also very good. You're welcome again anytime, just give me a ring first to make sure that I'm home... :Smile:

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## mellow

^ Thank you Dalton, will give you a ring first.mellow.

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## mellow

Went back to visit Dalton this week. The first visit just generated a lot of questions in my head, and there is so much involved with his systems, that it just isn't possible to take it all in. Anyways, what's been really sticking in my mind all week, is his air pump, which of course has to supply air for this system. I don't mean a few air bubbles here and there, but a lot of air. It takes up very little space, which was very surprising. I was expecting some big expensive commercial pump, and was pleased by this ingenious set up. What it appears to be is a cars air pump hooked up to a manifold and I think it was belt driven by an electric motor, but I'm not certain and I will have to eyeball it again. Maybe Dalton will fill us in on this cool set up, because, I for one would like to use a similar set up to aerate the 2 ponds I have here, maybe make a pretty spray fountain.  This thing got a lot of balls and I think one could handle these 2 small interconnected ponds. Anyways this would benefit all who need aeration, and it would be much cheaper than some fancy air pump. Lets see if Dalton will fill us in on this set up, and how he came across it or thought it up. It's called a Super Charger. Maybe he will give us the low down, of how he put it together, and if he used second hand parts or new, and what kind of electric motor he's using. Lets hope he's nice enough and has the time to turn us on, to this pumps construction. Next time I will take my son's phone and take some pictures of it.

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## Marmite the Dog

> Next time I will take my son's phone and take some pictures of it.


I would recommend a camera, but each to his own...

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## mellow

^ I already have a camera, its just one which you have to get the film developed, and the pictures printed. My son's phone camera took the pictures above, and I can hook it up to the PC to get the pictures. I try not to buy things I already have, just cause there's a new model out. Can't afford to keep up with the latest gadgets.

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## Dalton

> Maybe Dalton will fill us in on this cool set up, because, I for one would like to use a similar set up to aerate the 2 ponds I have here, maybe make a pretty spray fountain. This thing got a lot of balls and I think one could handle these 2 small interconnected ponds. Anyways this would benefit all who need aeration, and it would be much cheaper than some fancy air pump. Lets see if Dalton will fill us in on this set up, and how he came across it or thought it up. It's called a Super Charger. Maybe he will give us the low down, of how he put it together, and if he used second hand parts or new, and what kind of electric motor he's using. Lets hope he's nice enough and has the time to turn us on, to this pumps construction.


If I didn't happen to know you, then I would think that you were trying to get in to my pants with all that sweet-talk Mellow... :Smile: 
I'll post some pictures and an explanation to...Give me a few days..

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## Marmite the Dog

> I already have a camera


Just kidding old bean.

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## Dalton

^ I dident know that the English could do that... :Smile:

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## mellow

> Originally Posted by &quot;mellow&quot;
> 
> Maybe Dalton will fill us in on this cool set up, because, I for one would like to use a similar set up to aerate the 2 ponds I have here, maybe make a pretty spray fountain. This thing got a lot of balls and I think one could handle these 2 small interconnected ponds. Anyways this would benefit all who need aeration, and it would be much cheaper than some fancy air pump. Lets see if Dalton will fill us in on this set up, and how he came across it or thought it up. It's called a Super Charger. Maybe he will give us the low down, of how he put it together, and if he used second hand parts or new, and what kind of electric motor he's using. Lets hope he's nice enough and has the time to turn us on, to this pumps construction.
> 
> 
> If I didn't happen to know you, then I would think that you were trying to get in to my pants with all that sweet-talk Mellow...
> I'll post some pictures and an explanation to...Give me a few days..


  I'm not really one for much sweet talk, but I do give credit to where credit is do. I think your entire operation is really good.  Many people living here in the LOS who have ponds on their land, could benefit from this air pump. Running it a night when the oxygen level is depleted from these ponds, will greatly help the fish who are trying to live there.

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## The Gentleman Scamp

Pics please...  I always wanted a salmon farm, does Dalton produce salmon?

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## mellow

^ No salmon, he grows Tilapia. I'll be going back again soon, there's much more to see and understand. This time I will take a camera and post the pictures here. Not sure you can farm Salmon this way, might have to use a raceway. Would need to live by a river, to be able to deal with the constant water exchange.

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## tsicar

> ^ No salmon, he grows Tilapia. I'll be going back again soon, there's much more to see and understand. This time I will take a camera and post the pictures here. Not sure you can farm Salmon this way, might have to use a raceway. Would need to live by a river, to be able to deal with the constant water exchange.


it is probably possible to raise salmon in tanks, if it is not being done already.
in south africa there is a place that farms saltwater fish, oysters, abalone and lobsters  for supply to restaurants, and the farm is about 300km from the sea!

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## Reaper

Tsicar did you post on ThaiVisa in the farming section last year about fish farming? It was a South African who had a fish farm somewhere in Isaan and came across as very knowledgeable. Different user name - was that you?

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## tsicar

> Tsicar did you post on ThaiVisa in the farming section last year about fish farming? It was a South African who had a fish farm somewhere in Isaan and came across as very knowledgeable. Different user name - was that you?


yeah, some twat named frikkie-something. i am much more knowledgeable than him, since i have an extra year's worth of studying the subject since i made those posts on tv.

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## mellow

Cut down some trees, to make room for the recirculating unit. I needed the room for the Biofilters ,and a few more tanks to try and get  close to the quota, of the amount of fish, which we are trying to produce. Dalton has been real nice about communicating his experiences with his set up, and I will have to speak to him some more about various aspects of my plans. He has a drum filter, which obviously outperforms a common settling tank, but everything costs money. Therefore there will be questions about pre-filters, like what about the the idea of using a Vortex filter. Where perhaps it could be run for a couple of water changes daily, pumped directly out of the settling chamber, and of course letting the treated water discharge back into the system to be pumped into the Biofilter. My set up, in order to fit into the available space will have an open cement canal( Pumping costs alot, don't want to pull too far), or trench, which will lead to the Biofilter. Therefore plenty of space for the treated water to be discharged, away from the settlement tank ,and close to the pumps feeding the Biofilter. Although I've been reading up on this stuff for 10years, this will be my first go at it. Hopefully the learning curve will be OK and not to costly, but I don't intend to fail. A big cost of course will be feeding all these fish, but since Dalton produces feed, I will be able to purchase through him at a much more attractive price than can be purchased locally. Have to go back soon, to talk about the pipping set up also. So much to learn, but much easier with a working model, and someone who will also explain. Will take some pictures this time to put them on here.

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## Wayne Kerr

Mellow, thought you might be interested in this - Queensland aint that far away - http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/ass...28739/ratw.pdf

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## mellow

> Mellow, thought you might be interested in this - Queensland aint that far away - http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/ass...28739/ratw.pdf


 Sure wish I could go there and check it out, but can't leave the wife and son here by themselves. They depend on me, to take care of them. But thanks for thinking of me.

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## Dalton

> since i have an extra year's worth of studying the subject since i made those posts on tv.


Hmmmm...... :rofl:

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## mellow

Dalton, for a while now I have been wondering why there is only a single stand pipe per tank instead of 2. I have been thinking about the load which the biofilters can handle using &quot;cheap&quot; biomedia such as bottle caps, etc. Therefore I would think that if one stand pipe were used to flush out the settled effluents, directly out of the system, without even making it as far as the settling tank, it would greatly reduce the entire load which your system has to deal with. Also if I remember correctly, the overflow coming out of the biofilters was heavy, could you add on another biofilter to further assist the filtration, therefore increasing your stocking capacity? Things which have been going around in my head, which I may forget to talk to you about, when I make it out there again.

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## The Gentleman Scamp

Dalts, I forgot to ask you about this fish farm of yours.

It's a fantasy of mine to have a salmon farm in by back yard, it's also a fantasy of mine to one day even have a back yard.

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## mellow

> Dalts, I forgot to ask you about this fish farm of yours.
> 
> It's a fantasy of mine to have a salmon farm in by back yard, it's also a fantasy of mine to one day even have a back yard.


  When and if you do buy some land, get it right next to a river where you can have access to plenty of water. You can then grow your Salmon in Raceways with a constant water exchange.

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## tsicar

> hmmmmm everything seems to have gone quiet on this subject (am i missing something) was wondering where you guys got your stocks of fry from 
> 
> 
> scotty


breed your own.
can't vouch for the tilapia fry, i stayed away from tilapia since i am convinced there is no profit in tilapia farming in thailand, at least not if using pelleted feed. 
if you MUST do tilapia, make sure you get the hormone-treated same-sex kind, or you will REALLY waste your time.
tilapia would be more viable than catfish in an earthen pond, though.

i never found any viable catfish fingerlings in thailand. they wera all shite (60 to 70% non-performers due to no culling practiced by the hatchery. this is because they have low survival rate due to subsistence-type hatchery methods, and would not make any money if they had to cull out the non-viable fish, so they pass the shit onto the hopefull "catfish farmer", who does a few batches and bullshits himself he is doing great until his money runs out...........
if you buy the fry you will REALLY be sorry, even if they are dirt cheap. 
catfish are easy to spawn artificially (don't even THINK of letting them do it naturally), but the fry need a lot of care, such as feeding live high-protien diet every two hours for about the first ten days or so.
it is a lot of hard work, but you WILL NOT make any money at all if you do not do it this way.

there is a guy named redbullhorn on thaivisa who posted a big brag post about how sucessfull his catfish venture is. this was a few months ago, and reading the absolute shit and ignorance he displayed in his post, i should think that his "fishfarm" would have gone the same way dalton's did by now.

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## highlander

thanks tsicar for the heads up, was just going to keep a few for personal consumption tilapia  pla duc pla chon (sp) etc , have free feed readily available and l have access to a little stream that runs behind our house..

regards scotty

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## BigRed

> gone the same way dalton's did by now.


so what happened to Daltons?

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## Nawty

Drowned....

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## tsicar

> Originally Posted by tsicar
> 
> gone the same way dalton's did by now.
> 
> 
> so what happened to Daltons?


he ran out of "investors"

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## tsicar

> thanks tsicar for the heads up, was just going to keep a few for personal consumption tilapia pla duc pla chon (sp) etc , have free feed readily available and l have access to a little stream that runs behind our house..
> 
> regards scotty


if you stock with plachon, you will not have any pladouk or planin left after a while.

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## mrsquirrel

> he ran out of "investors"


I thought he ran over them :mid:

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## mellow

> Originally Posted by highlander
> 
> 
> hmmmmm everything seems to have gone quiet on this subject (am i missing something) was wondering where you guys got your stocks of fry from 
> 
> 
> scotty
> 
> 
> ...


 I don't see why you believe that there would be no profit in raising Tilapia( hormone treated ones). After all you have to feed your catfish pelleted feed also. Catfish are going for 40B/K while Tilapia are 85B/K and Taptim more. If your culture intensity is heavy, your going to need circulation and air for catfish too. So enlighten me. No sarcasm intended, but your point of view desired.

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## highlander

> Originally Posted by highlander
> 
> 
> thanks tsicar for the heads up, was just going to keep a few for personal consumption tilapia pla duc pla chon (sp) etc , have free feed readily available and l have access to a little stream that runs behind our house..
> 
> regards scotty
> 
> 
> if you stock with plachon, you will not have any pladouk or planin left after a while.


haaaaaaaaaa tsicar i did actually mean in separate tanks :mid: 

 regards scotty

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## tsicar

> Originally Posted by tsicar
> 
> 
>  
> .
> 
> 
> I don't see why you believe that there would be no profit in raising Tilapia( hormone treated ones). After all you have to feed your catfish pelleted feed also. Catfish are going for 40B/K while Tilapia are 85B/K and Taptim more. If your culture intensity is heavy, your going to need circulation and air for catfish too. So enlighten me. No sarcasm intended, but your point of view desired.


at the time i raised catfish in thailand, they were retailing at 45baht per kg, and in our area, tilapia at 50baht per kg.
catfish are fast growers and if they eat 5 percent of bodyweight of the right feed per day, they will gain weight at 5 percent of bodyweight per day.
meaning in thailand you sell the most marketable size fish, 45 days after stocking the fingerlings.
fingerlings are easy to produce, and one female can hold up to or over a million eggs. if you do it right, you can get about 90 percent survival rate of fry (if you do it the way thai hatcheries do it, survival rate will vary between 2 and 20 percent)
tilapia, although prolific breeders, do not yield such a high rate of fry, and the process is messy and difficult, plus then the hormone treatment, etc.
tilapia grow far slower, and stocking rates are extremely low when compared to catfish, especially in a high intensity recirculatiing system.
catfish, after about 30 days old, NEED NO OXYGEN, and can be stocked at the rate of 450kg/cubic metre tank (recommended), and have been sucessfully raised at the rate of 1000kg per cubic metre of tank. 
catfish are far less sensitive to unfavourable water conditions, and will still be happilly swimming and feeding at nitrite levels which would have killed all the tilapia long ago.
all this means, is that you need far less space for catfish to grow out. the short (compared to tilapia) raising period means you use far less electricity in a recirculating system (where electricity is your second biggest expense, and has to be taken into account, sinc profit margins are low in thai system) 
transporting catfish is easy (no oxygen requirement), where getting your tilapia to market is expensive, and all you can hope to sell in one day is all the fish that will survive for perhaps a day, after which the price drops drastically.
means that you can take 300kg tilapia to market at a time, in tanks with oxygenation, plus lose probably 20percent over the trip, where you could move a couple of tons of catfish, with virtually no losses and they will stay alive for weeks as long as they are kept damp.
i also found that catfish (in our area of isaan,anyway) were far more popular amongst the locals,than tilapia.
if you raised your tilapia in earthen ponds, using the "greenwater" system, you could do quite well since you eliminate the need for pellets, but you need a large number of large ponds to do it, and then you still have the transport, etc hassle, plus the predation, poaching and handling becomes an even bigger problem.
here you have a fish which is heavily dependant on oxygen and is highly sensitive to stress and injury, and you now have to net an entire pond, remove them from the water and into tanks without stressing them, depriving them of oxygen or injuring them, and then still keep them alive all the way to market.
for me: the rearing period for tilapia is far too long, the logistics are far too complicated and expensive, the fish far too sensitive and oxygen-dependant and the fact that the thais want the fish live when they buy it or the bottom falls out of the selling price, just makes them an unviable culture species in thailand. (dalton was selling live at 50 baht per kg(retail) and dead at 15 to 20 baht, and most of the fish he sold he bought in fully grown (he did not rear them since his operation was a failure), at 35 baht from wholesalers. fish losses were HUGE and i don't think he ever made a profit doing it this way, but he could not produce at a competitive price in his highly energy dependant system)

catfish: cheap, easy to build and maintain infrastructure,relatively easy to rear, resilliant, popular with the market, cheap to transport, short rearing period, easy to breed thus eliminating the expense of buying fingerlings.
with both types of fish you will NOT make a profit if you don't do your homework (and dont waste your time rearing any fish if you are to do it the "thai way" (they know nothing about aquaculture)
you need to know EXACTLY what you are doing, know the market,keep accurate records, continuously keep records and keep track of overheads, run as energy-efficiently and as labour efficiently as possible, and most of all: do not ever get confused between the two terms: turnover and profit!
in other words,you need to run your aquaculture operation as a BUSINESS if you are going to have any chance at all of sucess.

.....and you have to start off with a VIABLE animal, meaning you have to know what it is going to cost to rear the animal, whether, and how much the market wants of the animal, and how you will get the animal to market and still make a profit.

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## mellow

^ which catfish are you referring to, and what do you consider marketable size?

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## tsicar

> Originally Posted by tsicar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by highlander
> ...


ok scotty, NOW you are talking.
your good ole plachon probably gets the highest price at market and is immensely popular as a table fish in thailand.
i did a bit of research, and it seems the thais raise them much the same as they raise catfish (throw a bunch of fish into a pond. add food. wait. net the pond. make a loss)
now, these buggers can breathe air, much the same as catfish, and i suggest they would do extremely well at extremely high stocking densities in a recirculating system.
they have a high protien requirement and are slow growers, but they fetch a very high price, so the cost of feed can be offset to a degree.
looks like nobody tried to do any research yet, but i have an idea they may not grow out as slowly, or be as predatory if fed the right diet and managed properly.(starving populations of catfish fingerlings will also eat each other until there are only a few left!
research into catfish has been ongoing for around 40 years, and it is easy to get information for optimum culture, but seems, since plachon is largely unknown in the west, that no real research has been done, and it is generally accepted that the way the thais do it is the end of story. 
i see an huge opportunity here, and it is an avenue i will definitely follow when i return to thailand.
i am thinking:
artificial spawning.
artemia diet for fry
extremely high stocking densities in recirculating system
greenwater raising of tilapia, then harvested and used as plachon-feed.
will take a long learning curve, but if you can crack it..................

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## tsicar

> ^ which catfish are you referring to, and what do you consider marketable size?


ok, the thais will tell you all about "pladouk na"
they will tell you that they taste the best.
the ones you get at the market are "beeg oeie"
and the thais will tell you they taste the best.
the most viable catfish species to rear is the clarias gariepinus, which the thais will tell you is : pladouk yak, or "russian catfish" (a few other names, too.
they will tell you the fish tastes shit.
all of this is CRAP!

the beeg oeie is a cross between the less viable (slower growing) clarias macrocephalus (excuse spelling) and the african catfish (far faster growing species), and was developed by the universities of thailand, and i think holland or belgium at the time to try add some positive qualities to the poorly local fish.
pladouk na, is supposedly a wild catfish, mostly caught in the rice paddies, but in reality, almost no "wild catfish" still exist in thailand!
pladouk dam is the clarias bactrachus (again, please excuse spelling) and are a totally unviable species to consider culturing because of their slow growth rate.
most of the "wild catfish" you will encounter are escapees, or decendants of escapees from farms, and i found out that a study conducted on the dna of "wild fish" found that not one caught had not had an african catfish lurking somewhere in their genes.

ok, now ask your wife how to tell the difference between a pladouk yak, and the "thai" beeg oeie, and she will probably say: the colour, and the pladouk yak is long and thin.
there are differences between the breeds, but they take a trained eye to recognise (shape of the top of the base of the scull, and THAT IS ALL!!!)
neither colour nor taste has anything to do with differences between the two, both of these characteristics being determined PURELY by the environment the fish was reared in and what they were fed on, much as a trout which has been feeding only on crustaceans will have a very pink flesh and on which has been feeding mostly on snails will have a bright silvery appearance.

seems to vary from area to area, but most popular marketable size seems to be around 200grams to 250grams, although i used to raise a few to a kilogram or more for some of the locals who preferred them this size.
the thais would even buy them at 100grams.

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## mellow

Did I ask a hard question?

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## mellow

Seems we posted at the same time. Which fish did you raise to marketable size in 45 days and what is the size you are referring to?

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## tsicar

> Seems we posted at the same time. Which fish did you raise to marketable size in 45 days and what is the size you are referring to?


i started off doing everything wrong, buying locally produced fingerlings, screwing everything up, bullshitting myself i was making a profit and finally, after finding the correct information, fired all my well-meaning, but ignorant thai advisors, i went over to the recirculating, high intensity thing.
i am sure that most aspirant catfish farmers bought fingerlings and found a few that reached marketable size in around, or less than 45 days. what you need is for ALL your fish to grow out at that rate, or if not , then a similar rate, but the most important is that they all grow at around the same, fast rate
in my case, i noticed that there were a few fish which had had outstanding growth rates, which i had kept to try to breed "naturally" (big mistake, but i did produce about 5 fingerlings this way!), and they became my future broodstock. 
i guess they probably "beeg oeie" which had retained more of the gariepinus gene, and from then on i just selected fastest growing fish as broodstock, so the stuff i produced were probably real mongrels, but probably leaning to the "pladouk yak" side.
none of the customers asked, or cared, and my fish were more popular than those bought from the guy with the pickup and loudspeaker, who eventually stopped bothering to come to the village coz the locals said my fish were "clean".ie, they did not find pieces of rotting, half digested chicken in the gut, and i could produce year round, without shortages,'cept maybe around sonkraan when demand more than doubled..

around 45 days from a two inch fingerling to around 200-250 grams but ALL the conditions MUST be right.
and any fish you need to raise after 55 days should be discarded, since these fish cost more money to raise than you will get for them.

when i say conditions, i mean:

high quality, culled fingerlings of uniform size and AGE.
highest protien pellet you can find in thailand RIGHT THROUGHOUT THE GROWOUT PERIOD
water temp around 28 celcius (easy in thailand)
good water quality (biggest biofilter you can build)
constant monitoring and control.
optimum stocking rate
correct shaped flow-through tanks. (NO thai-style circular tanks with central upstand overflow, you need the shit to exit at the BOTTOM of the tank)

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## mellow

250 grams in 45 days is certainly a very good growth rate. We have raise have raised pla nin and tap tin for 3 months to achieve this similar growth. Either way, desirable fish around here (Issan) seems to be about 500 grams. Good to see people talking about fish farming, it used to be much more common here, or on the other forum. I guess either most people have dropped out of it, or just don't want to share their experiences.

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## tsicar

> 250 grams in 45 days is certainly a very good growth rate. We have raise have raised pla nin and tap tin for 3 months to achieve this similar growth. Either way, desirable fish around here (Issan) seems to be about 500 grams. Good to see people talking about fish farming, it used to be much more common here, or on the other forum. I guess either most people have dropped out of it, or just don't want to share their experiences.


catfish are probably the ultimate culture species because of their incredible growth rate and versatality, and thailand seems to be perfect for this type of farming. as the fish grows, the growth-rate (but not the feed conversion rate) seems to slow down, and the size preferred by the thais puts them right in the best part of the curve for harvest.
also, there is so much information available about all aspects of culturing these fish, that it is a real pity most people in thailand (where there does not seem to be an aversion to eating "ugly fish" as there seems to be in some western countries), and where conditions for rearing them are probably amongst the best in the world, that the locals prefer to keep using low tech, inefficient antiquated methods of culture.
the only reason that catfish are available year round in thailand is due to their transportability, and the highly efficient transport system available in thailand.

(there- it burned my arse to do so, but i just gave credit to thais for doing something right!!
perhaps i am not such a racist, after all!!)

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## Smithson

Tsicar,

Interesting info, I've got a lined pond with Tilapia and Tubtim, just for personal consumption and aesthetics. So far I haven't been impressed with the growth. Originally I was planning to do some 'aquaponics', but don't really have time as I'm only on the property on the weekends.

One idea I'm planning on is to add fresh water to the pond with an overflow drawing water/crap from the bottom and irrigating trees. Any thoughts on this? 

Also, what about using insects for feed? I already have a light with timer over the pond to attract bugs at night. I also have a room set up as a worm farm, in a few months there will be plenty for feed. 

I'm not thinking about making money, just incorporating fish for self sufficiency and organic farming. They are a great source of protein with a low demand on resources.

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## tsicar

> Tsicar,
> 
> Interesting info, I've got a lined pond with Tilapia and Tubtim, just for personal consumption and aesthetics. So far I haven't been impressed with the growth. Originally I was planning to do some 'aquaponics', but don't really have time as I'm only on the property on the weekends.
> 
> One idea I'm planning on is to add fresh water to the pond with an overflow drawing water/crap from the bottom and irrigating trees. Any thoughts on this? 
> 
> Also, what about using insects for feed? I already have a light with timer over the pond to attract bugs at night. I also have a room set up as a worm farm, in a few months there will be plenty for feed. 
> 
> I'm not thinking about making money, just incorporating fish for self sufficiency and organic farming. They are a great source of protein with a low demand on resources.


hi.
i am no expert on tilapia or taptim (nor on catfish, if you really want to know) the subject just fascinates me enough to try to learn as much as i can, and i DID have some sucess with catfish, and before that, koi (NOT comets!), and bred aquarium fish as a kid, for pocket money, so i learned a lot about biofilters over the years.
it sounds like you have quite a nice little polyculture setup going.
there is loads of info on the internet about polyculture and it makes very interesting reading.
by taptim, i assume you are referring to carp, and they will do well with the tilapia, since they snuffle around in the garbage at the bottom of the pond and get hold of all the stuff the tilapia didnt eat and do not really compete for food.
you could add some catfish, which will keep the population of smaller tilapia in check, leaving more for the bigger ones to eat.
i cannot advise on stocking densities, etc, you will have to look it up. i never did any polyculture, but it has been done very viably in many places around the world.

ok, the insects provide an excellent source of protien, but if you could catch enough to feed your fish, you would do better selling the insects (selling price far higher than that of tilapia), and then buying feed for the fish.
your earthworms are also excellent feed, if you can produce enough of them.
i would look at the "greenwater system" (there goes the aesthetics!), though, where fertilizer or manure is added to the water, causing algae to bloom. 
tapttim, tilapia AND CATFISH (true!) will all feed on the algae, which is an high protien feed and is easy and cheap to produce in your pond.
with the algae will come zooplankton, which are fed on by the fish, and also feed on the algae.
algae will also provide oxygen (as will all water plants) and aid in processing nitrates, plus provide a home for aerobic bacteria which will convert the dangerous nitrites your fish will produce.
again, you have to check the internet for how much shit you will need to throw into the pond.
if you are happy with your pond and what it produces, and do not want to get too technical or farm commercially, or pump water through a biofilter day and night, i would suggest you carry on as you have been doing.
do not pump out the garbage from the bottom. you seem to have a happy little ecosystem going. you could rake the bottom periodically which will expose more of the detrius to the action of aerobic bacteria, to break down nitrites, and expose more food for the taptim.

so, there: greenwater for the feed to improve fishgrowth.
catfish to control the large numbers of fry the tilapia will produce ,and improve the growth of the remailing tilapia, thus taking advantage of the free food source and providing an extra bit of protien for the family! 

raking pond bottom to expose feed for the taptim, and aid 
nitrite conversion.

check it out on the inrternet, and let us all know how it goes.
i am sure there of plenty of guys on the forum who would be more interested in this kind of culture than trying to get into the commercial and technical (if you want to succeed commercially) side of things, and perhaps it can liven up the fish farm side of things on the forum, which seems to have kinda fizzled out of late.
good luck!

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## Smithson

^ Thanks for the info, the Taptim are red tilipia, nice eating fish that look good too. All fish are supposedly male, so no offspring (although I noticed there are some tiny tubtim, not sure what's going on). I like the idea of having a nice looking place that also produces food and gives me something to do.

The idea of the sucking from the bottom was to fertilize plants and clean the water at the same time. Sometimes my water is green, but it usually conincides with pump malfuctions. The fish were tiny fingerlings and after six months they've still got a way to go before eating size. 

I think this is a bit slow. There is plenty of floating lettuce type plants, which the fish nibble on, so I don't think the nitrite levels are too high, maybe I just need more aeration?

Have you ever looked into aquaponics? Apparently they can get better plant growth than even hydroponics. Considering the stocking densities you mentioned with catfish, your system may be very suitable for aquaponics (but not necessarily profitable).

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## tsicar

> ^ Thanks for the info, the Taptim are red tilipia, nice eating fish that look good too. All fish are supposedly male, so no offspring (although I noticed there are some tiny tubtim, not sure what's going on). I like the idea of having a nice looking place that also produces food and gives me something to do.
> 
> The idea of the sucking from the bottom was to fertilize plants and clean the water at the same time. Sometimes my water is green, but it usually conincides with pump malfuctions. The fish were tiny fingerlings and after six months they've still got a way to go before eating size. 
> 
> I think this is a bit slow. There is plenty of floating lettuce type plants, which the fish nibble on, so I don't think the nitrite levels are too high, maybe I just need more aeration?
> 
> Have you ever looked into aquaponics? Apparently they can get better plant growth than even hydroponics. Considering the stocking densities you mentioned with catfish, your system may be very suitable for aquaponics (but not necessarily profitable).


i have been racking my brains for a few years about this subject.
using plants to filter the water works really well. apart from themselves removing nitrites and nitrates from the water, plants with fibrous root systems provide a large area for both aerobic and anaerobic bacteria to thrive.
at least half of the biofilter i used was comprised of a "vegetable filter", although i never grew crops, just used those waterweeds with the long fern-like fronds that choke up many ponds in isaan to clean the water, and it worked extremely well.

it must be possible to grow edible crops in an hydroponics-type of system to both filter the water and make use of the free fertilizer that a large system would produce, perhaps in small pots with holes in, filled with stones or riversand to anchor them or in floating polystyrene rafts like they use in some hydroponics systems.
you would have to have knowledge of the plant and it's needs, and grow stuff that can stand in water without rotting.
i know "pak-boong" would work, and probably the lettuces etc, but quite frankly i simply do not have enough knowledge on the subject to make recommendations.
 one could use some of the runoff water to irrigate fruit trees, but then you have to have really good quality water to replace it, so i would not advocate a "total loss" system.
why not give it a try and let us know how it goes?

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## Smithson

> why not give it a try and let us know how it goes?


Actually I've tried it, if you search aquaponics you'll find a heap of info. It's popular in Australia, as water restrictions prevent ppl from traditional veggie gardening. 

In Thailand there's no problem with water, so the expense of buying all the tanks, setting it up is difficult to justify. Also, in western countries, old baths and blue barrels can be gotten cheap/free.

I had considered setting up a system for a Thai to manage while I was away, but even after several months he couldn't understand how to use the bypass switch on a timer.

So what I'm now looking at is adding clean water to my pond and then having an overflow hose drawing dirty water/solids from the bottom and watering my food crops. I would add water for about an hr a day, a cheap timer attached to a pump, drawing water from a well. The water seems OK, no fish deaths.

Do you have any links to good and simple bio filter designs?

Here's a pic:

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## tsicar

> Originally Posted by tsicar
> 
> 
> ?
> 
> 
>  
> Do you have any links to good and simple bio filter designs?


everybody's idea of a good biofilter design differs: everybody who sells one has a better "mouse trap", and needs vary according to what you are farming, how much of, etc. 

all you have to remember is that you need as much oxygen as possible, and as large a surface area as possible, coming into contact with as much as possible of the contaminated water for as long as possible.
my personal favourite would be a "rotating biological contactor", since it makes sense to me as being probably the most energy efficient i have seen, but i would use a roadsweeper brush as the rotor instead of the disks, and this will be my next biofilter experiment,but i would DEFINITELY combine it with:
probably one of the most efficient, and cheapest filters available: 
exactly what you have suggested: a vegetable filter!!!!
if you can get it right and use an edible crop as the filter, you score all the way.

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## andysmith

Check out nam sai fish farm in chachoengsao run by a great scotsman warren what he does not know about fish farming is not worth knowing.Just tap nam sai into your search engine.

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## Looper

> what he does not know about fish farming is not worth knowing


just don't plant them too close together and you won't go far wrong

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## tsicar

> Originally Posted by andysmith
> 
> what he does not know about fish farming is not worth knowing
> 
> 
> just don't plant them too close together and you won't go far wrong


all depends on whether they are comets or koi.
comets can be planted far closer together in rows, than can koi.
you have to remember to water regularly, though in order for them not to dry out, or they will shrivel and start to rot.
hope this advice helps

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## mellow

It's a shame that Dalton's wife didn't keep the fish farm running while he is away.Don't make sense just letting it sit dormant.

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## tsicar

> It's a shame that Dalton's wife didn't keep the fish farm running while he is away.Don't make sense just letting it sit dormant.


there was no way she could have done it. the whole place was unsustainable and had made a loss from day one, hence the need for "investors" who sunk millions into the venture which was doomed from day one.

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## mellow

> Originally Posted by mellow
> 
> 
> It's a shame that Dalton's wife didn't keep the fish farm running while he is away.Don't make sense just letting it sit dormant.
> 
> 
> there was no way she could have done it. the whole place was unsustainable and had made a loss from day one, hence the need for "investors" who sunk millions into the venture which was doomed from day one.


 Interested in why you feel as you do. You must have something to back this up. To keep the subject purely on a path of theory, and construction of the farm itself, please explain your point of view.

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## mellow

There has to be some sort of management,or structural flaw. Maybe the filtration system is not up to par? Why was it doomed from the start?

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## tsicar

> There has to be some sort of management,or structural flaw. Maybe the filtration system is not up to par? Why was it doomed from the start?


all of the above reasons and more. see the other thread.

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