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## William

Another of my articles looking at Thai law issues for you to look at and flame!


*Wills and Estate Planning - Thailand*

_* Note: the following is intend only to provide the reader with an overview of the issues that need to be considered when looking at wills and estate planning in Thailand; it is not intended to be a comprehensive guide, nor is it intended to constitute legal advice. In the event that you are contemplating writing a will (or putting your affairs in order) in Thailand, it is strongly recommended that you seek the advice of a reputable lawyer in Thailand._


The following is a brief article about a a topic many of us avoid thinking about until it's too late - our death. However, as my dear old Mother used to say, "there are two things certain in life William, taxes and death. Avoid paying the first to make sure you have something to leave when you face the second." No truer words spoken, and you can never set about putting your affairs in order young enough - especially with the way we drive and live our lives here in Thailand! So, what are the issues we need to be thinking about?


*Inheritance tax - and the problems its causes*
Without doubt, one of the greatest aspects of living and having assets and families in Thailand is that our beneficiaries are not (currently) subject to inheritance tax. The downside here, the Thai legal system is very simple when it comes to estate planning - there are no complex estate trust mechanisms in place. Indeed, in part because there is no inheritance tax, the Thai legal system doesn't even recognise the legal concept of a trust - nor does it recognise the concept of a "beneficial" owner in equity. Simply put, Thai law only recognises legal owners of property. One caveat here would be that Thai law does recognise the concept of a legal "guardian", which could be seen as a very embolic form of trust relationship. 


*Types of probate*
In short, Thai law recognises two types of probate - intestate and will. 


Section 1620 of the Civil and Commercial Code
"_Where a person dies without having made a will, or if having made a will, his will has no effect, the whole of his estate shall be distributed among his statutory heirs according to law._

_Where a person dies having made a will which disposes of or has effect for a part only of his estate, the part which has not been disposed of or is not affected by the will shall be distributed among his statutory heirs according to law._"


- the intestate probate


Section 1646 of the CCC
"_Any person may, in contemplation of death, make a declaration of intention by will concerning dispositions as to his property or other matters which shall take effect according to law after his death._"


- the will probate.


*How to make a will in Thailand*
In order to constitute a binding and lawful will under Thai law, you will needs to be made in compliance with Title III: Wills; Chapter II: Forms of Will, of the CCC. In short, bullet-point form, this means you will needs to be:


* made by someone over the age of 15 (Section 1703);
* may be made in writing, dated at the time of making the will and signed by you and at least 2 witnesses (Section 1656)
* may be made by an holograph document (Section 1657)
* may be made by public document (Section 1658)
* may be made by a secret document (Section 1660); _provided that_ the document: is (a) signed by you; (b) be a closed document with your signature across the place of closure; (c) the closed document must be closed in front of the Kromakarn Amphoe ("KA") with at least 2 witnesses, with a declaration that it is your last will and testament; (d) the document must be signed by the KA and you and the witnesses and the KA must note on the cover of the document that it is your last will and testament declaration along with the date it was submitted
* may be made orally, _if_ exceptional circumstances such as imminent danger of death, during an epidemic or war, the person is prevented from making a will in any of the above prescribed forms (Section 1663), but such oral will will only be valid for a period of 1 month if you do not die within that time frame subsequent of making it (Section 1664)

- it should be noted that a witness to a will cannot also be a beneficiary thereunder (Section 1653).


*Thai nationals living overseas*
Insofar as they wish to devolve assets held in Thailand, Thai nationals overseas may execute their will in the form prescribed by the law of the country in which they reside or under Thai law; but when made in accordance with Thai law, the role of the KA is taken by the Thai embassy or consult or any competent authority for authenticating a record of public statement.


*Foreign assets / Thai assets*
The division of foreign assets versus Thai assets is an interesting one. On the one hand, there is nothing stopping you including Thai assets in a foreign will, nor foreign assets in a Thai will. Practically speaking however, and especially so if you live in a country that has inheritance tax, estate planning will put you in direct conflict with Thai law and will, thus, likely nullify your wishes if you wish to probate such assets here. 

For this reason, good practice guidelines are such that you separate your assets into those assets you have in Thailand and those you have elsewhere, with wills drawn up on how to devolve these assets in the best manner possible pursuant to the local rules where the assets are held.


*Intestate*
In a worst case scenario, you die without having left a will, what happens? The answer is that your estate is split up according to the provisions of the CCC - in particular Book VI: Succession; Title II: Statutory Right of Inheritance. In fairness, in trying to be equitable to all, the provisos here are a mess, but essentially you have 6 classes of heir, with varying importance, as follows:


1. direct descendents (also known as "issue", and "children")
2. parents
3. brothers and sisters of "full" blood
4. brothers and sisters of "half" blood
5. grandparent
6. uncles and aunts


Now, immediately you should be noticing one startling exception to the list of 6 - your loved one (i.e. husband/wife)! The fact is, your spouse is a statutory heir, but as class 7! In other words, if any member of class 1-6 is surviving, spouse only gets a proportionate share:


1. at the same &#37; share as each surviving child
2. 50% 
3. 50%
4. 75%
5. 75%
6. 75%


ONLY if NO class 1-6 heir exists, will the spouse get 100% of the estate- so those of you with assets in your wife's names, without a will, better start putting pen to paper as you read this. *YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED*


*What happens if I die owing money?*
If you owe money on your death, your creditors can make a claim against your estate, but only for an amount equal to the property value being transferred/devolved. In other words, if you have nought when you die, and your estate has nought when you die, your creditors have nought when you die! Then again, so do your dependents/beneficiaries (if any).


*The concept of a "living will" in Thailand*
The concept of living wills is interesting in Thailand. The fact is, the CCC has no specific provisions relating to living wills. Wills only become effective - as a declaration of intent - on your death. Thus they're useless here. 

As a contractual document, it is extremely likely that a living will would not be enforced in Thailand on the grounds that it would be "against public morals". Unfortunately, Thai law has no definition of what constitutes "Thai morals" and the Thai courts have never defined it, just calling it "Thai morals".


So, if you want to write a living will in Thailand - feel free to do so, nothing stopping you from doing so, but do so in the knowledge that, as with most things here, you wishes will likely be completely ignored and there will not be a damn thing you can do about it!


*Finally*
In the words of one Dr. Spock, I do hope you all "_live long and prosper_". However, make sure you see a good lawyer in Thailand a long the way and get your affairs in order. After all, if you are surviving spouse, it could mean the difference between be out on your arse and having a roof over you head!


_&#169; Copyright ownership of this article belongs to William Jarvis. You are free to copy this article at liberty and you are also free to quote from this article in full. In either case you are asked, as a matter of courtesy, to make reference to the author as being just that. To this end, while not being particularly fussy, the author views the act of ‘passing off’ as being a particularly repugnant act done by those too stupid to work things out for themselves. Please respect my views on that – it’s not asking a lot!_

_If you have any questions relating to this article, please feel free to PM me or email me. I cannot promise that I’ll be able to answer your questions, but I’ll do my best._

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## friscofrankie

Thanks again William.  you know I will be copying this and pasting it "elsewhere."  :Smile:   Seriously this is something I've now got to consider havng paid a large partion of the payments on "our land."  Got to get teh ol' lady to make a will  :Wink:   Think many folks here should also be looking at this closely.
one of the things on my list of things to do as well now.

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## NickA

> 1. direct descendents (also known as "issue", and "children") 2. parents 3. brothers and sisters of "full" blood 4. brothers and sisters of "half" blood 5. grandparent 6. uncles and aunts


What happens when the children are under 18???

I would be quite happy if everything went to them as that's what we want to happen anyway.

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## William

^that's nota problem. the problem is, "what happens if the children are under 18 and Mum and Dad, Aunty Florsie down the road, brother somchai, et. al, are still alive?"

then, my dear friend, you do have a problem. As it could get messy over claims and who would act as legal guardians of the children

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## NickA

But the kids have the first claim, don't they????

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## William

yes, but that would not necessarily debar Mum and Dad from staking a claim, as, under Section 1626 the estate will be divided _in portion_ to each of the varying classes (from 1-6) on a _per stripes_ basis (section 1634). 

So, the question of children is complicated. Yes, they are entiled to inherit. Yes, they _should_ be the primary beneficiaries. 

But, Section 1634, last sentence of para (1) states "The decedents of lower degree [to those of the children] may receive the inheritence only by virtue of the right of representation."

And, therein lies the problem - all of which can be simply avoided but putting pen to paper now.

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## NickA

Ok, so to the nitty gritty - what would it cost to make a will at a reputable lawyers (preferably one that can speak a bit of English) in Bangkok???

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## ChiangMai noon

About 3 times as much as it would cost in Chiangmai at a guess.

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## William

Nick - I honestly don't know - but if it costs more than say, 10k, let me know and I'll see what I can arrange for you.

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## NickA

^^How much does it cost in CM, CMN???

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## friscofrankie

Got a decent lawyer up here charges 25k for corporation formation including the extra stockholders, visa work and all.  figure a will'd cost about a tenth that.  I can ask if you're serious about making one.

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## ChiangMai noon

You are in the same ballpark as I was in Frankie.

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## NickA

Well, yep, I was expecting a few grand, certainly nothing more than 5k - problem is, I'm a lazy fuk and don't think about the future too much so I probably won't do anything about it anyway!

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## friscofrankie

Glad we could help

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## dirtydog

> problem is, I'm a lazy fuk and don't think about the future too much so I probably won't do anything about it anyway! Then I will die and Uncle Somchai the drunken gambler will get all my money and assets, my children wont have money for schooling and will become child beggars in Bangkok bar areas.


At least you are looking into the future development of your children Nick  :Smile:

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## William

> Well, yep, I was expecting a few grand, certainly nothing more than 5k - problem is, I'm a lazy fuk and don't think about the future too much so I probably won't do anything about it anyway!


Nick - given that for many years I held a similar view, I can hardly talk!  However, if I had children in Thailand, esp. half-Thai/Half-foreign children, I would immediately put my affiars in order and keep them up-to-date.  I don't want to scare you Nick, but it has been known that the courts in Thailand, in contested custody cases, will give custody of the children to Granma based on the rationale (a) this is Thai culture (that Grandparents bring up children); and (b) that as a foreigner you have no idea of what Thai culture is, therefore you can have no idea of how to bring up "Thai" children according to Thai culture.

I will freely admit that in uncontested cases, the courts have given custody to foreigners where the child wasn't even a blood relative of the foreigner, but do you really want to take the risk of losing everything plus your children merely because you and the misses don't want to spend half a day putting things in order?

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## NickA

^^Not much problem if I die Dog, all my stuff is in England. Only a problem if the wife dies and what happens to all her stuff.

^Ermmm, I'm not sure what you're saying William, are you saying my wife would have to leave me my children in her will???

Don't worry too much about me, most things are planned for so that the kids will be fine, just not the early demise of my wife!

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## William

^ no, I'm saying you nominate your wife as legal guardian and likewise she nominates you legal guardian [of the children] in the event of either of your deaths and you both nominate a third person as legal guardian [of the children] in the event that you were to die together at the same time.

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## friscofrankie

In my situation I am more worried about the ol' lady dieing.  My kids are grown  What I own in my own name could be packe in a bag The kids'll get whatever banking info I have.  The ol' lady dies? All that money put into land should go to me, would feel better with it clearly written down.  
BUT you die and your kids end up, Where?  God forbid, you and the ol' lady get in a car wreck and leave couple of orphans?  Anything you have to leave them back home but how do they get it?  Who controls it 'til they're old enough?

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## NickA

^How do we do that???

I apoologize if I'm asking stupid questions, but I have spent all of my life avoiding legalities and responsibilities - now I've gained some responsibilities, but I'm yet to catch up on the legalities part.

I don't like lawyers or anyone who is likely to want paying either, which doesn't help!!! :Smile:

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## NickA

^^Same as Frankie - plus if we both die my kids would probably be better moving to England with their Grandparents, is it possible to nominate people outside of Thailand???

((confused))

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## dirtydog

If you aint married Nick, old gran ma has more rights to your children than you, I sorted that problem out real quick by reporting their deaths, well I did assume the old gits were dead, seems they aint though, never foking ceases to amaze me how old bloody people can live so long, anyway as far as the local authorities here are concerned they are all dead, only got to keep that pretence up for a couple more years and then my kid is 16 and can do whatever the fok he wants, anyway I would recommend a nice fake letter saying your mother inlaw is dead anyway, you know just in case like  :Smile:

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## NickA

^I am married you arse...does that make me the guardian as well, then???

Dog, if you aren't married have you been able to get a British passport for your son???

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## dirtydog

Nope, no british passport for my son, why the fok would he want to go there for?

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## dirtydog

Actually I had the choice of legally adopting him which would take 3 years with the British Embassey and a hell of a lot of lies and money, or a couple of letters reporting the death of the whole family, I went the easy route, fok them if they find out they aren't all really dead, yeah it may make it hard for them to renew their ID card, but hell, who gives a fok  :Smile:

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## NickA

^He might not want to go to the UK, but if he's only got a Thai passport he'll struggle to go anywhere without a visa - if he gets a UK passport he can travel to most places very easily.

For me, it's now just the wife that is holding back the family from a jet-set lifestyle, but I ain't willing to spend the three? years back home it would take to get her a passport.

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## NickA

Erm, Dog, wouldn't it have been easier to get married than doing all that???

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## William

> ^How do we do that???
> 
> I apoologize if I'm asking stupid questions, but I have spent all of my life avoiding legalities and responsibilities - now I've gained some responsibilities, but I'm yet to catch up on the legalities part.
> 
> I don't like lawyers or anyone who is likely to want paying either, which doesn't help!!!


Mate, in my business no question is stupid enough.

You basically have two problems here: (a) can a forienger bring up a Thai? (b) does the concept of parental rights exists?  In the case of the second, yes.  In the case of the first, this is ground to contest (if you wanted to).

All of this is easily(-ish) fixed by having a will, in which your wife says "in the event of my death, Nick is legal guardian over my kids" (or words to that effect) and likewise for you.  The you can also have a provision that says, in the event of both of our deaths, Nana Molly in Blackpool is legal guardian (again, not those exact words, but not far off it).

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## LesBonsTemps

I have an estate question that perhaps you guys can help us with...

My stepchildren's mom is Thai and has continued to maintain her Thai citizenship, ID papers, etc.  We all live in the U.S. and visit Thailand about 3-4 times a year (one big happy family -- it's weird).  My husband while married to their mom never worried about the children having Thai citizenship.  Now it is apparent that someone will need to have the Thai property (several houses in a fenced compound) at some point, but none of the children would be eligible to hold property because they have only U.S. citizenship.

What would it entail to get Thai citizenship for half-Thai adult children who were born in the U.S.?  Are we correct that there would be difficulties sorting out the Thai will if we don't have an eligible citizen to transfer the deeds to?

The other option is that our daughter-in-law is Thai, but frankly I hold no high hopes for that marriage.

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## friscofrankie

Asking the ol' lady she's got a few questions the kids live in the USA?  Mom lives where?  how old are the kids?
They can become citizens, how to go about it would be better addressed with the above information.
Oh yeah, where were they born?

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## LesBonsTemps

> Asking the ol' lady she's got a few questions the kids live in the USA? Mom lives where? how old are the kids?
> They can become citizens, how to go about it would be better addressed with the above information.
> Oh yeah, where were they born?


Thanks for the help!  Yes, the kids live in the US, mom lives in the US most of the year, kids are adults 25 and 28 years old, and they were born in the US.  Their mom was a Thai citizen with US "green card" at the time they were born.  The land was mom's inheritance from her father, with the houses, garage built during visits over the past 10 years.

If the Thai property can't be titled in their name, it will revert to Ko's siblings -- NOT what anyone wants.

I suspect it's one of the those "get-ready-to-take-forever-to-push-this-through" experiences with bureaucracy, but could be done -- correct?  Should we look for a Thai lawyer on this one?

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## friscofrankie

Translate their Birth certificates into Thai, take both copies (english & thai) to he Embassy.  Mom should need to go with them, although they are of age, the embassy will want to interview mom, the kids maybe even dad.  
Are the kids bilingual? if they don;t speak Thia things are gonna get tougher.  Taking 25 years to get their births registered as Thai citizens is gonna slow down the process to a crawl.  Are they male?  They have avoided Thai military requirements then haven't they?
The Ol' lady works in the passport office.  She deals with this kind of thing on a daily basis, usually unregistered births, folks born in Thailand.  This one has got her stern, govt official face on her  Boy would you get a lecture if you showed up at her office  :Smile: .

BUT, try to get this done at the embassy.  This will be much simpler.  She says, "OO, YAAAK MAAAK' if you try it over here.
Getting legal help may be difficult in the states though, I know.

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## NickA

^I don't think they could get Thai citizenship now, could they???

As far as I know the Thais make someone choose theie nationality when they are 21, so for them to get thai citizenship now would mean renouncing their American citizenship!?!??

Of course, if you do both before you are 21 then there is no way of them knowing if you still have the other.

I would say it is impossible, but then again over here you CAN get a square block through a round hole, as long as you use a lot of oil!!!




> All of this is easily(-ish) fixed by having a will, in which your wife says "in the event of my death, Nick is legal guardian over my kids" (or words to that effect) and likewise for you. The you can also have a provision that says, in the event of both of our deaths, Nana Molly in Blackpool is legal guardian (again, not those exact words, but not far off it).


OK, that's what I thought you were saying - I'm just suprised that something like that needs to be done if we're married, but then again, I probably shouldn't be!!!

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## William

^strangley, even if you live in the UK, you should be doing the same thing (as a matter of good practice).

Also, Thais can and do have dual nationality.  You are right, in that when they apply for a passport there is a box which says something line "do you have ay other nationality?" - tick here.  Guess how many people tick  :Smile:

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## NickA

^I agree that Thais can have dual nationality, what I'm saying is that they would have to have got the Thai nationality before they were 21, or at least it would have made it much easier, but I might be wrong!

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## William

hmmm - good point batman

Isn't DJ Pat apply for his Thai nationality/ID Card?  Might be worth asking him

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## a. boozer

Thanks William.

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## SEA Traveler

I'm interested in having an attorney in the Pattaya area prepare a "WILL" for my dual nationality spouse (Thai and American) so that if by chance I survive her, that I am the sole beneficiary of the land and house that is in her name but in reality was financed.

Might someone be able to direct me to a short list of reputable attorneys with reasonable rates who is resident in the Pattaya area and would be capable of preparing such a will in Thai but with a translated version as well as providing the process for proper and official filing of the "WILL" in Thailand? Thanks in advance.

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## The Gentleman Scamp

So a will must be made according to the law of the country of residence?

So what happens if I pop my clogs whilst on a visa run to Laos, or on holiday in China,  or on a plane over the Atlantic?

I need to sort out a will that will be valid wherever I die - is there an example will or template I can use as a guideline because it's something I don't want to dwell on.

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## Blake7

^ and the country of residence of the money itself! ie which bank is it parked in?

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## William

and "residence" doesn't need to mean where you are physically located.  For example, on a visa run to Loa you are not a resident of Loa

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## The Gentleman Scamp

I have been looking for a will template as a guideline to write my will here and now, print it out then get it signed by two witnesses that are not benny fisheries*.

Unfortunately, Google has many that claim to be free downloads but in fact they are all peppered with 'Add to cart' and '$29.99' and all that bullshit.

Can anyone assist?

* _Spellcheck._

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## bkkmadness

"In the event of my death, I leave it all to Sandra.

 The Gentlemen Scamp"


 Print and sign at your convenience. :Smile: 


And here you go, u must be able to find something here.

last will and testament free templates - Google Search

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## The Gentleman Scamp

Thanks Maddie but Jesus foking Christ, I downloaded it and all it is is pages and pages  of Jargon from _AXA Equity_ _and Life_ trying to part elderny Brits with their money.

Is there an _example_ will I can just edit to my own erm.. bits.

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## bkkmadness

How about this?

epoq : wills service

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## The Gentleman Scamp

Have a green and 10% of my estate.  :Smile:

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## bkkmadness

Google is your friend Scamp.

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## The Gentleman Scamp

_I The Gentleman Scamp hereby state that when I die I want the following people contacted and the following people taken care of. 

Sandra

My friend Val in Scotland

My brother Nigel if he needs it, (can't make much being a foking priest in HK with three kids).

I want my body cremated and scattered in a politicians face.

If this isn't formal enough and doesn't have the correct poncy jargon then stick it up your arse._

Signed, blood dropped and witnessed by two close friends.

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## The Gentleman Scamp

bkkmadness can have my kettle.

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## bkkmadness

> _ My brother Nigel if he needs it, (being a foking priest in HK with three kids)._


3 kids is enough to last a foking priest for a while isn't it?

And why I have got stiffed on the deal? One minute it's 10% of the English estate, and now a poxy kettle, and god knows what's been in there. :Sad:

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## The Gentleman Scamp

> 3 kids is enough to last a foking priest for a while isn't it?


That's redworthy mate, he's still my brother even if he's a godbotherer - i'll let you off this once.  :Smile:

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## bkkmadness

Sorry Scamp, didn't know he was your real brother I just thought he was part of the crew my nigga. :Wink: 




















Actually I did kind of guess he was, but wanted to use the line.  I will accept the red like a man. :Smile:

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## The Gentleman Scamp

You have been pardoned...  run along now.  :Smile:

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## tsicar

Now, immediately you should be noticing one startling exception to the list of 6 - your loved one (i.e. husband/wife)! The fact is, your spouse is a statutory heir, but as class 7! In other words, if any member of class 1-6 is surviving, spouse only gets a proportionate share:


1. at the same % share as each surviving child
2. 50% 
3. 50%
4. 75%
5. 75%
6. 75%


ONLY if NO class 1-6 heir exists, will the spouse get 100% of the estate- so those of you with assets in your wife's names, without a will, better start putting pen to paper as you read this. *YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED*




this is very interesting, and i do not dispute the information or the source, but i have been advised differently by three different legal entities (thai attorneys) and they seem to be of the opinion that:
the spouse is entitled to the first 50% 
the remaining 50 percent is then split between the children, the mother and the spouse again , so in my case, 50percent for me, 12.5percent for each of my two children, 12.5 percent to her mother and another 12.5 percent to me, totalling 62.5percent for the spouse.
we will be going to court on these grounds, since the father laid claim to the land and managed to get her land transferred to his name under false pretences after her death.
i am told by all the thais that i speak to that the asset split happens in this way.i.e. this is the way it happens in thailand.
can anybody please clear up the confusion?

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## William

^it's possible.  Dying without a will means the division of the assets is subject to the court's discretion.  Usually this means that a blood relative, of which a child is the highest order, has a stronger call than a non-blood relative - such as a spouse.  This is even more so if the marriage has not been registered at the amphur.

The above split you quote is as prescribed by the Civil and Commercial Code, but again it is subject to court discretion, so should not be taken as outright correct.  It is one of the dangers of dying without a will that your assets will be subject to court discretion - and my experience of this in Thailand is that this can mean almost anything.  Hence the need to ensure it doesn't happen to you.

Unfortunately most of us believe we will have sufficient time to put our affairs in order before we die, so put the thing off.  Experience has shown me that this is rarely the case.

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## tsicar

> ^it's possible. Dying without a will means the division of the assets is subject to the court's discretion. Usually this means that a blood relative, of which a child is the highest order, has a stronger call than a non-blood relative - such as a spouse. This is even more so if the marriage has not been registered at the amphur.
> 
> The above split you quote is as prescribed by the Civil and Commercial Code, but again it is subject to court discretion, so should not be taken as outright correct. It is one of the dangers of dying without a will that your assets will be subject to court discretion - and my experience of this in Thailand is that this can mean almost anything. Hence the need to ensure it doesn't happen to you.


and would the court decision be swayed if the father of the deceased had had himself appointed executor of the estate, then made a fraudulent claim, stating that he was the sole heir, that the deceased had no spouse, nor any children, and had the land transferred into his name after her death?
he seems to think he has sole right to the land since he had signed it over into her name about fifteen years ago, so that justifies his actions.
it looks like i will have to go to court on this one, and i dont want to be paying for the lawyer's new car if i am backing a loser. i am not interested in making a claim for my share, but i do insist that the land is transferred into my (the deceased's) children's names.
the lawyer assures me that a marriage certificate from ANY country is valid in thailand, whether it was registered in the amphoe or not.
i have a certified translation of the original south african certificate, and he seems to be happy with that.
sorry to be a pain in the butt, but i do not want to be setting myself up to be taken for a ride by the lawyer as well............

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## xpat

After inquiring about obtaining a POA for me to represent my 89yr old father at the US consulate for sworn affidavit of pension for my 89 yr old father who is under my care and at this point, he is barely able to walk, they sent me a list of local Chiang Mai attorneys and i contacted one that I was familiar with and their fee for that simple doccument was 2kbaht.  I then asked for their fee for drawing up a simple will naming me as my father's beneficiary of his two Thai bank accounts [currently amounting to 500kbaht].....one page of 'boiler plate' [standard fill in the empty spaces doccument] and they wanted 8kbaht.  

Leading me to ask the following questions....

1]   what are the standard attorney fees for these simple doccuments?? POA & will

2]  can I DIY [do it myself by typing up the forms and getting three witnesses to sign??  Legally??

3]  it was [just casually] mentioned that the POA would be useful for one transaction only and would have to be drawn up on a yearly basis to satisfy
Thai immigration requirements for retirement visa.  Is this true??

4]  and would Eglish only suffice for these doccuments??

any competent or experienced advise would be greatly appreciated as I feel that attorneys here in LOS are 'sharks' like their counterparts in America.

Thanks in advance.....

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## Khun Custard

Great thread William!

BUT Will or no Will , if Tilak dies before you - the land and house you paid for in her name can never be yours by Thai law - right?? 
What's your thoughts on clauses in Wills to protect non Thai benefactors - liquidation of all property assets on death?

Seems that the Falang might get caught in the middle and the kids or the inlaws might be the landlord??

Be nice to your inlaws and kids!!  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Lorenzo

I was advised, by a Thai lawyer, to keep minimal assets in Thailand. I am following this advice.

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## William

My answers are in *bold* below

Leading me to ask the following questions....

1]   what are the standard attorney fees for these simple doccuments?? POA & will

*The charges you were quoted were very cheap.  For the will alone I would probably have charged in the region of 30K - and that's assuming it was not difficult.

* 2]  can I DIY [do it myself by typing up the forms and getting three witnesses to sign??  Legally??

*Ordinarily I would say yes, but Thai law has a few technical issues; so I would be reluctant to suggest you do this.  Nothing to do with lost fees 

* 
3]  it was [just casually] mentioned that the POA would be useful for one transaction only and would have to be drawn up on a yearly basis to satisfy
Thai immigration requirements for retirement visa.  Is this true??

*True to a degree.  It all rather depends on what the POA states.  More to the point is that a POA can be revoked at any time.  Under Thai law, a POA is seen more in the realm of an agent/principal relationship. I think that is the reason why you were advised as you were.

* 
4]  and would Eglish only suffice for these doccuments??

*Yes and no.  English is fine, but in the case of a will it's inventive that you will need to involve Thai authorities, so best to have a Thai translation of an English deed/agreement.*

any competent or experienced advise would be greatly appreciated as I feel that attorneys here in LOS are 'sharks' like their counterparts in America.

*I make no comment as to the 'sharks'* 
Thanks in advance.....[/quote]

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## William

> Great thread William!
> 
> BUT Will or no Will , if Tilak dies before you - the land and house you paid for in her name can never be yours by Thai law - right?? 
> What's your thoughts on clauses in Wills to protect non Thai benefactors - liquidation of all property assets on death?
> 
> Seems that the Falang might get caught in the middle and the kids or the inlaws might be the landlord??
> 
> Be nice to your inlaws and kids!!


The Land Code is very clear that you can be the beneficiary of land.  There are conditions attached with retaining the right to own the land.  As such, it is likely you would need to sell the land - but you could structure the transaction in a friendly manner.

My thoughts on the will provisions are clear - make you the beneficiary and then see what happens.  You never know, you could get lucky!!

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## Khun Custard

Thanks William
Seems's it's really no more risky than a western divorce settlement :dev+ang:

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## scrumpyfalang

Hi William, going back to your article you recommend more than one Will when there are assets outside of Thailand.
I believe UK Wills must containing a clause revoking all other Wills.
What to do?

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## AntRobertson

> Hi William, going back to your article you recommend more than one Will when there are assets outside of Thailand.
> I believe UK Wills must containing a clause revoking all other Wills.
> What to do?


William hasn't posted on here in a long time, scrumpy.

However the situation is easily dealt with by keeping the Thai and UK assets seperate (hence the two wills). You're correct that a valid will should rescind all prior ones, however that's only in relation to the assets that you choose to list in it.

You can have two contemporaneous wills as long as they don't purport to deal with the same assets.

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## William

^What he said - and keep in mind that you are dealing with two different jurisdictions and legal systems

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## scrumpyfalang

Many thanks to you both.

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## Lorenzo

Assume this all pertains to Thailand assets and not assets back in the mother land. What would be the scenario if assets were maintained outside of Thailand? Will back west for assets back west and a Thai will for Thai assets? Could get confusing if that were not the case.

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## William

^Lorenzo - to the extent possible, any Thai will should only include Thai assets. You can include beneficiaries that are outside Thailand, but the assets should be in Thailand.

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## Data

> Another of my articles looking at Thai law issues for you to look at and flame!
> 
> 
> *Wills and Estate Planning - Thailand*
> 
> _* Note: the following is intend only to provide the reader with an overview of the issues that need to be considered when looking at wills and estate planning in Thailand; it is not intended to be a comprehensive guide, nor is it intended to constitute legal advice. In the event that you are contemplating writing a will (or putting your affairs in order) in Thailand, it is strongly recommended that you seek the advice of a reputable lawyer in Thailand._
> 
> 
> The following is a brief article about a a topic many of us avoid thinking about until it's too late - our death. However, as my dear old Mother used to say, "there are two things certain in life William, taxes and death. Avoid paying the first to make sure you have something to leave when you face the second." No truer words spoken, and you can never set about putting your affairs in order young enough - especially with the way we drive and live our lives here in Thailand! So, what are the issues we need to be thinking about?
> ...


Sorry for my ignorance, but what is a Kromakarn Amphoe, and where do I find him/her?

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## TomR

Hi All,

Got an Intestate Succession Q. from a European son whose Father passed away not-residing in Thailand but with a property in the country. Confused as to what the succession rules are. Biggest one is whether or not the surviving spouse is entitled to 50% of all the assets immediately before the rest of the estate is divided between statutory heirs...

Any help would be massively appreciated.

Tom

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## terry57

I want to make a simple Will which states,    " Lek " the Bar girl is entitled to my worldly possessions if I get run over by a Tuk Tuk.  

It's the " Handbag " actually,     I want to make sure she can get to my cash that's sitting in " Bangkok Bank."

I've told her to rip it all out using my Bank Card but she is a tad scared that the Filth may bang her up for accessing my account when it ain't really hers.

I see her point so I'm gona make a proper Will using a Thai Lawyer. 

No kids, No house, no nothing complicated.  Just making it legal so she can access my Bank.

Do not want my Buks going to the Bank Manager. 

So around about,   what would I be lookin at paying these vultures. ?


And No,      I ain't putting her name on my account.    :Sorry1:

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## Headworx

^I paid 10k Baht for my latest local Will a few months back. It's quite basic and is in place mainly to ensure Mrs Worx (who's actually only my de-facto) would have legal access to money in my Thai bank accounts. Your Missus's worries about breaking the law if you kicked the bucket and she used your ATM card to access your local money are well warrented, for her to do so would be illegal.

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## terry57

^
Thanks very much mate,

Your situation is exactly the same as mine. 

10 K baht is fokin expensive, that's $ 400 AUD.  

I was bitchin about paying $300 in Perth.   :Confused: 

Whatever Huh. 

Anyway,

I'm onto a Lawyer here regards this issue so I've got something to go of.

Thanks again.

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## Headworx

^Most welcome. Something else possibly worth thinking about is your partners immediate access to money, even with a Will in place she won't be able to get at the money left to her in your bank account for a while. In my case that's a problem, Mrs Worx would need instant access to funds for my funeral and her immediate financial well being. I get around this by keeping a quantity of gold in a place she can access that could be converted to cash in 5 minutes. 

It's a fairly macabre topic but we have to be realistic and have plans in place, more so as we get older. I've seen guys here pass away unexpectedly with nothing in place and it's a complete nightmare, you do NOT want your partner and kids (in many cases) to have to go thru courts to get access to assets you wanted her/them to have in the first place.

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## terry57

^
Yes I agree totally,  one must have ones shit sorted. 

I have a Safe at home which contains a heap of Cash plus all my important stuff like Bank books, Passport and such. 

If I kick off she can call on my mate.  He has my spare Safe key and will come over and Pop it open for her. 

I've tuned her into taking it all down to Superich, covert it to Baht and smash it in her Bank account. 

It's the Money in my Bank I need to get squared away, she needs to be able to get it.  

I want to see my Handbag set up if I Kick. 

She's been a great girl.

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## mudcat

Any know the surest way to pass on family vehicles (books and insurance in my name) and a small savings account (~20-100k) should I die suddenly here or out of the country.  No concern about her  immediate situation but don't want to pile up problems and certainly don't want my sisters involved.  Have a U.S. marriage that has never been registered at the local amphur.  Can a will cover any and all vehicles or does the will need to be re-written with each change.  

Steve

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## Pragmatic

Why not just put it all in the wife's name now?

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## Headworx

> I want to see my Handbag set up if I Kick. 
> 
> She's been a great girl.


We're in _exactly_ the same boat here Terry. Parting with 10 large (or whatever it might cost you at the Law firm you chose) is a fairly cheap price to pay for the peace of mind it brings...

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## mudcat

> Why not just put it all in the wife's name now?


So there are no questions about who controls use and maintenance.   Never a question of whether her relatives wear seat belts, which insurance agent to use, where it is stored when we are away, or whether to change the oil and filter at 3k.

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## Pragmatic

> Originally Posted by Pragmatic
> 
> 
> Why not just put it all in the wife's name now?
> 
> 
> So there are no questions about who controls use and maintenance.   Never a question of whether her relatives wear seat belts, which insurance agent to use, where it is stored when we are away, or whether to change the oil and filter at 3k.


My motor is in the missus name. Not a problem, I still have control.

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## jamescollister

mudcat, if your married it's communal property, does your wife use your name, then everything here goes to her on your death.
That includes your bank account.

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## terry57

Today  we attended a Family lawyer who was recommended to me by a property lawyer I know.

Will sorted,  drawn up witnessed and two copies issued. One for me and one for the Handbag.

In and out in 30 minutes .

2k Baht. 

 :Smile:   love Thailand, can get shit done.

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## Headworx

^Good on 'ya then Terry, job done. I'll be giving my Lawyer a gentle serve when we next meet over his pricing structure, might even sue him for overcharging  :Smile: .

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## terry57

^

I think your Lawyer has taken the piss and seen you coming mate. 

As I said before 10 K is 400 large AUD.

In Perth I can get a complex will draw up for $ 300 AUD.


2 K Baht is fairly well on the money for Thailand considering the time frame involved and drawing up a very simple Will.

I said we were with him for 30 minutes but it was more like 20 minutes. 

He just downloaded the forms,  altered the names, placed the details of my Bank books and my Passport on separate pages. Added a copy of the Handbags Identity card as well. 

I signed it, he then wandered off to get it witnessed, gave me a copy and we walked out.   Peace of piss.

Here is the big difference.  We started the process by contacting this Thai lawyer I know, in turn he put me in Contact with this lawyer who does Wills.

The guy calls the Handbag the same day and we were sitting in front of him the next day doing the business.

In Perth I must book two weeks ahead to make a new will or alter an existing will.  

I then wait another week or two until they get around to actually doing it.  :Confused: 

The whole system shits me to death. 

In Thailand they just do it.

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## Luigi

Suppose I might as well do a basic Thai will for my Thai property.

How much to do a basic one leaving my condo, car, motorbikes and bank accounts to Mini-Luigioese?

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## Luigi

Probably should have read Teresa's post first.  :Smile:

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