#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Doing Things Legally >  >  Cutting Teak Trees

## Horatio Hornblower

We have a plot of land, that we're going to clear for a new build.

The land has five big teak trees on, and we have been informed by the local  Tree feller, that we have to pay 1,000 baht and local govt official will come along and stamp the tree(s), we then have to wait 1yr and 5 months and then can cut.

Alternatively we can also pay a sweetener and have the trees cut down quickly.

Due to the present govt paying the sweetener could it get us into trouble.?

Anyone know if its 1,000 per tree.?

Anyone have any experience with cutting Teak.?

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## thaimeme

Shouldn't of mentioned to anyone.
Word gets around quick.

Just cut 'em - take your chances.
Fuck the criminal authorities.

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## Horatio Hornblower

No chance of doing it like that, we cleared land a few years ago, and the land had a couple of very small teak on it, one of the local save the world pratts threatened to report us, the PYB talked him around.

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## Necron99

Shame to cut them down unless oyou want the wood.
Can design around them?

or sell them to be relocated?

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## Pragmatic

Isn't it illegal to fell trees that are on Sor Por Gor land? That was always my understanding.

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## Horatio Hornblower

We will use the wood for the build.

Many things illegal in Thailand just have to get the right person, to deal with.

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## thaimeme

> We will use the wood for the build.


There ya go - that'll work.

Still have to grease the wheel.

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## boloa

> Can design around them?


Trees offer loads of shade and will keep your house cool.......is Necron99 suggestion a possibility??

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## Horatio Hornblower

We are going to use chumping Bamboo as  fencing, there's  trees on the side of the land that will provide cover, the teak will be used as supports. where trying to go eco friendly no concrete.




> Originally Posted by Necron99
> 
> 
> Can design around them?
> 
> 
> Trees offer loads of shade and will keep your house cool.......is Necron99 suggestion a possibility??

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## jamescollister

Tread carefully, everyone will take a kick back and say ok until you get arrested by someone else.
If you have a forestry department near go see them, be legal.
Illegal longing carry's jail time and it's a hot crime at the moment and you can't grease everybody, too many.
Not just felling the tree is illegal, but moving the lumber carry's time, anyone of a number of agencies can arrest you for it.

I'm in an illegal logging area and people won't even move old teak boards.

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## thaimeme

> Originally Posted by Necron99
> 
> 
> Can design around them?
> 
> 
> Trees offer loads of shade and will keep your house cool.......is Necron99 suggestion a possibility??


Many varieties of trees are beneficial for shading......yet, teak isn't one of them - grows nearly vertical without great branching.

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## Necron99

^^ Good advice.
It's not like paying your way out of a traffic stop.
Especially as you seem to have some busybodies in the area already

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## Horatio Hornblower

James/Necron thats why were taking it slowly, want to make sure everythings above board.

Don't fancy doing time, then again hmm wouldn't it be the wife its in her name. :Smile: 






> Tread carefully, everyone will take a kick back and say ok until you get arrested by someone else.
> If you have a forestry department near go see them, be legal.
> Illegal longing carry's jail time and it's a hot crime at the moment and you can't grease everybody, too many.
> Not just felling the tree is illegal, but moving the lumber carry's time, anyone of a number of agencies can arrest you for it.
> 
> I'm in an illegal logging area and people won't even move old teak boards.

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## jamescollister

> Don't fancy doing time, then again hmm wouldn't it be the wife its in her name.


This is Thailand, get caught, confess and blame everyone else.
Who's the pay master, you, you evil farang, taking advantage of poor ignorant Thais.

Best all round, keep out of things, be a stupid farang, don't be involved, be it lumber, land, druggy family members, guns or family disputes.
Your the village idiot, no one even knows your there, like a soi dog, not noticed.

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## Bower

I wonder why there are laws against cutting down some times of tree..........

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## Horatio Hornblower

^Here's a funny story in 1976 there was a military coup and they started clearing forests, because the rebel forces had settled in the teak forests for protection.

hmm likely story :Smile: 

The British raped  the land and formed a teak empire  in the late 1800s

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## Bower

> ^Here's a funny story in 1976 there was a military coup and they started clearing forests, because the rebel forces had settled in the teak forests for protection.
> 
> hmm likely story
> 
> The British raped  the land and formed a teak empire  in the late 1800s


And that is relevant to you cutting down some more ?

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## rickschoppers

> We are going to use chumping Bamboo as  fencing, there's  trees on the side of the land that will provide cover, the teak will be used as supports. where trying to go eco friendly no concrete.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by boloa
> 
> ...


If you are trying to go eco friendly, I would use Necron' suggestion. Design around the trees and incorporate them into the landscaping. Nothing more eco friendly than that.

You also will not have the worry about someone wanting money for cutting them down or reporting you because you did not pay. Better to not have anything the locals can use against you for any reason.

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## Horatio Hornblower

What 5 trees.? thats going to really hurt the Eco system.




> Originally Posted by Horatio Hornblower
> 
> 
> ^Here's a funny story in 1976 there was a military coup and they started clearing forests, because the rebel forces had settled in the teak forests for protection.
> 
> hmm likely story
> 
> The British raped  the land and formed a teak empire  in the late 1800s
> 
> ...

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## Horatio Hornblower

James Can't do there in the position of the planned home,plus the timber will be Eco friendly on the wallet as well for the build.





> Originally Posted by Horatio Hornblower
> 
> 
> We are going to use chumping Bamboo as  fencing, there's  trees on the side of the land that will provide cover, the teak will be used as supports. where trying to go eco friendly no concrete.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...

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## Necron99

> Originally Posted by Horatio Hornblower
> 
> 
> ^Here's a funny story in 1976 there was a military coup and they started clearing forests, because the rebel forces had settled in the teak forests for protection.
> 
> hmm likely story
> 
> The British raped  the land and formed a teak empire  in the late 1800s
> 
> ...




Teak and other trees are protected to stop people cutting down the native forests..

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## Horatio Hornblower

Thats true because there's only certain persons  allowed to make money from the teak trade. :Smile: 

Teak Trade




> Originally Posted by Bower
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Horatio Hornblower
> ...

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## thaimeme

> The British raped the land and formed a teak empire in the late 1800s


...in Burma and Malaya, perhaps.

Though, the attempts to establish such a foothold here were largely in vain.
The 2-3 British interests in teak [in particular] were highly restricted and limited by the good Chulalongkorn.

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## Norton

> We have a plot of land, that we're going to clear for a new build.


Is the land title a Chanote? If so should be ok to cut. Better safe than sorry. Go check at your Or Bor Tor.

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## Horatio Hornblower

Norton

Thanks, yes it has Chanote.

Any problems if i pay the sweetener rather than waiting, its just as you know some of the offices like to give you the runaround., better to go with knowledge.

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## Horatio Hornblower

Jeff the Brits raped Phrae before Chulalongkorn stepped up to the plate.




> Originally Posted by Horatio Hornblower
> 
> 
>  
> The British raped the land and formed a teak empire in the late 1800s
> 
> 
> ...in Burma and Malaya, perhaps.
> 
> ...

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## thaimeme

> Jeff the Brits raped Phrae before Chulalongkorn stepped up to the plate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by thaimeme
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> ...


 
An interesting article that you might find stimulating....

In the academia.edu directory - easy to find.
By Brett Bennett
Forestry as Foreign Policy: Anglo-Siamese Relations and the Origins of Britain's Informal Empire in the Teak Forests of Northern Siam, 1883-1925

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## Horatio Hornblower

Thanks but read it before,if it wasn't for those damn frenchies they'd all be speaking English now. :Smile:

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## jamescollister

> James Can't do there in the position of the planned home,plus the timber will be Eco friendly on the wallet as well for the build.


Do you have planning permission for this house, probably not if there are trees in the way.
We all know things like planning permission are not followed too much, but it is still the law, if someone doesn't like you and complains, you're wrong, you broke the law.

Follow the rules and no one can make problems, bend them or break them and you can end up paying.
Thais can be very vindictive at times, Thai on Thai, as a farang you are lower down the pecking order.

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## thaimeme

> Originally Posted by Horatio Hornblower
> 
> James Can't do there in the position of the planned home,plus the timber will be Eco friendly on the wallet as well for the build.
> 
> 
> Do you have planning permission for this house, probably not if there are trees in the way.
> We all know things like planning permission are not followed too much, but it is still the law, if someone doesn't like you and complains, you're wrong, you broke the law.
> 
> Follow the rules and no one can make problems, bend them or break them and you can end up paying.
> Thais can be very vindictive at times, Thai on Thai, as a farang you are lower down the pecking order.


 
Unless one has a relative or two within high ranks.
Does have it's moments.

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## Pragmatic

> Norton  Thanks, yes it has Chanote.


I can't see your problem if the land has Chanote title.

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## rickschoppers

So let me get this strait. If there are teak trees on land that a person owns by Chanote, then no permission to cut them down is needed?

I thought all teak was controlled by the government?

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## Pragmatic

I'll take some photo's of some teak trees across the road from where I live that were cut down about 6 months ago. Was never a problem, so I understand. The locals shared them out.

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## thaimeme

> So let me get this strait. If there are teak trees on land that a person owns by Chanote, then no permission to cut them down is needed?
> 
> I thought all teak was controlled by the government?


Realistically, every situation will differ from the next.

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## Pragmatic

> If there are teak trees on land that a person owns by Chanote, then no permission to cut them down is needed?


There shouldn't be if you really do have Chanote title. A lot of people don't know the full definition of 'Chanote'.

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## Pragmatic

This thread on TD might assist.




> We have remaining 24 rai of teak trees that are 20 yrs. old. You need a  proper chanote with the updated / latest GPS coordinates on it and  permission to plant from the Forestry Administration Organization (after  they survey the plot) - they will then give you a registry paper.  Somewhere along the way - whilst the trees are maturing - you can obtain  a tree stamp for when you want to harvest the trees.


 Teak Tree Plantations - Farming in Thailand Forum - Thailand Forum

This is concerning 'Plantations' not 5 trees in ones back yard.

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## rickschoppers

Is there really a difference in Thailand? Just asking.

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## Pragmatic

> Is there really a difference in Thailand? Just asking.


All depends what you're comparing?

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## rickschoppers

Cutting teak trees to cutting teak trees.

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## Pragmatic

> Cutting teak trees to cutting teak trees.


Why didn't you say? There's a big difference between 5 random teak trees in ones back yard to a 25 Rai plantation. The plantation will be logged whereas the 5 trees will be incidental. That's how it appears to be with the trees that were cut down outside my house.

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## thaimeme

> Originally Posted by rickschoppers
> 
> Cutting teak trees to cutting teak trees.
> 
> 
> Why didn't you say? There's a big difference between 5 random teak trees in ones back yard to a 25 Rai plantation. The plantation will be logged whereas the 5 trees will be incidental. That's how it appears to be with the trees that were cut down outside my house.


Without becoming too pedantic - sounds about right.

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## rickschoppers

So all teak trees are not equal with regard to Thai law.

We have a grove of teak trees across from us on land that was once owned by my wife's father. He sold it years ago and now a teacher from Udon owns it. If I had to guess there are more than 100 teak trees on his land. Will he be able to just cut them down whenever he wants?

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## Pragmatic

> Will he be able to just cut them down whenever he wants?


This article might assist. 


> Unasylva - No. 201 - Teak

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## Necron99

Policeman to truck driver "What's in the truck?"
Driver "Just some teak trees, only 5 of them"
Police "Where's the paperwork?"
Driver "Oh I don't need paperwork to harvest or transport, they came from chanote land"
Police "Are they stamped?"
Driver "Noooo.... see the land, it was chanote......"
Police "Thanks for the wood......"

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## rickschoppers

Very plausable Necron.

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## Pragmatic

Who the fcuks going to transport 5 trees?

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## cnx37

The police, I guess.

Who else?

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## Pragmatic

> Policeman to truck driver "What's in the truck?" Driver "Just some teak trees, only 5 of them" Police "Where's the paperwork?" Driver "Oh I don't need paperwork to harvest or transport, they came from chanote land" Police "Are they stamped?" Driver "Noooo.... see the land, it was chanote......" Police "Thanks for the wood......"


When did carting them around the country enter the equation? HH wants to clear his 'Chanote' titled land that has 5 trees on it. I don't see a problem.

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## jamescollister

Teak trees can't be cut without permission, if you get caught you get caught, the rights or wrongs make little difference.
A few 100 Baht may get you a permit to fell the trees, no permit and you could  get done.
A chance you take, simple as that, break the law and you can get in trouble.

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## Pragmatic

Teak trees left standing after equal number were felled. The stumps are still there 6 months later and never hidden to cover up the crime(?). The trunks were used locally and one or two were just left to rot where they were felled.

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## jamescollister

Pragmatic, what crime, if you grow forestry certified teak you thin them out after around 5 years.
All lumber can then be shipped and made in to furniture in Thailand, un certified lumber is classed a illegally logged.

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## VocalNeal

> . ...where trying to go eco friendly ...


But want to cut down tress to be Eco friendly  :Confused:  Use the shade.

How long does Teak take to season, before it can be used for construction?

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## Pragmatic

> Pragmatic, what crime


By putting the (?) at the end of crime I was trying to be sarcastic. As I wrote earlier i don't think HH has a problem.

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## thaimeme

One has to take the lawful side of Thailand with a grain of salt.
All regulations can be modified and overlooked, especially if there is gain/profit to be made.

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## johpam

Horatio Hornblower you said that you were going to use those 5 teak trees in your new building. May I ask you when you going to start this build because you will have to season your teak trees for a minimum of 18 month or longer. You said that these trees were big but you did not how old and big they are. To be used in a house build they have to be at least 25 years old otherwise they will not be hard enough and will not have build up enough sap to repel white ants or other insects. If they are much more older they could be much more valuable if you can sell them legally.  A Thai person that I use to know (passed away) had about 20 Teak trees on his land and he was going to use them for his house. They were about 60-70 years old. He got offered 55000 baht per tree and walk away with more than 1 million baht. That nearly paid for his whole house 14 years ago. 
cheers johpam

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## RPETER65

> We have a plot of land, that we're going to clear for a new build.
> 
> The land has five big teak trees on, and we have been informed by the local  Tree feller, that we have to pay 1,000 baht and local govt official will come along and stamp the tree(s), we then have to wait 1yr and 5 months and then can cut.
> 
> Alternatively we can also pay a sweetener and have the trees cut down quickly.
> 
> Due to the present govt paying the sweetener could it get us into trouble.?
> 
> Anyone know if its 1,000 per tree.?
> ...



A few years back my wife's brother had 20 rai of teak ready to cut, the process of getting the permits was quite involved pictures of the trees, legal survey of the land, and more that I am not aware of it took several months but I don't remember any waiting after the permits were issued. The other thing is getting someone to cut them if you don't have the permits most tree fallers will not and buying a chainsaw in Thailand requires a permit.

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## Pragmatic

> buying a chainsaw in Thailand requires a permit.


There's a few threads on this. For one https://teakdoor.com/farming-and-gard...-one-in-2.html I belive this law to be history as every fooker that makes charcoal for a living seems to have one.

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## Horatio Hornblower

I think we'll go  the Thai way, and get approval first, better for ones wallet.

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## RPETER65

> Originally Posted by RPETER65
> 
> buying a chainsaw in Thailand requires a permit.
> 
> 
> There's a few threads on this. For one https://teakdoor.com/farming-and-gard...-one-in-2.html I belive this law to be history as every fooker that makes charcoal for a living seems to have one.


Not in our area thereare only two or three according to my wife and they will not cut teakwood without a permit.

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## thaimeme

> I think we'll go the Thai way, and get approval first, better for ones wallet.


Go along to get along.
It's been known to be healthy for the soul, occasionally....

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## jamescollister

> Originally Posted by Pragmatic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by RPETER65
> ...


Same out my way, the chainsaw guys would be on to the forestry soldiers like a shot, after all you would be stealing their income.

Here's the act.

Thailand Electrical Saw Law | Thailand Law Forum


Section 17: Whosoever breaks the rules or does not follow the requirements under Section 4, Paragraph 1 and 4 shall be liable to a punishment of a term of imprisonment not exceeding 5 years, or a fine up to but not over 100,000 baht, or both, and the court can order the confiscation of the chain saw.


Think those little chainsaws under a certain size are exempt, have 2 for cutting wood for the rubber smoker.

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## bsnub

Save the trees! The rest of Asia is clear cutting. Safe the Teak!

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## thaimeme

> Save the trees! The rest of Asia is clear cutting. Safe the Teak!


Ironically, it was the West's insatiable appetite and lust towards selected tropical hardwoods [as it still is] that were the cause and effect of Asian deforestation.

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## Bower

> Originally Posted by bsnub
> 
> 
> Save the trees! The rest of Asia is clear cutting. Safe the Teak!
> 
> 
> Ironically, it was the West's insatiable appetite and lust towards selected tropical hardwoods [as it still is] that were the cause and effect of Asian deforestation.


Nothing to do with China then ?

When I saw the huge trees cut and loaded in Burma I was told its destination was China. Same in Cambodia and Laos.

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## toddaniels

TOTALLY OFF TOPIC;




> Ironically, it was the West's insatiable appetite and lust towards selected tropical hardwoods [as it still is] that were the cause and effect of Asian deforestation.


I dunno how much faith I'd put in thaimeme's above sweeping statement. It would appear after a brief google that China is sure a contender for suckin' up the most teak in the world. 

I was able to glean these tidbits from the inter-web;

"Allegedly plantation grow teak supplies most of the US demand, and  there are HUGE teak plantations in India and Indonesia which actually  account for close to 78% of all the plantation teak in the WORLD!!  However Myanmar is the largest exporter of teak as sawn timber and even  then most of that seems to be plantation grown."




> "The great majority of the worlds teak plantations have been established under government planting programmes.  The government has had a dominant role in plantation establishment in India, Indonesia, Myanmar and Thailand, countries that account for about 87 percent of the worlds teak plantations. In the future, however, the role of the private sector in plantation establishment in these countries is likely to be significantly greater. For example, the Government of Thailand currently offers subsidies of up to US$780 per hectare for tree planting. This reflects a shift in government policy from direct to indirect involvement in tree planting." 
> 
> "The main teak-growing countries are Burma, Laos, Cambodia and Thailand. Eighty percent of the world's remaining teak forests lie along the Burmese border with Thailand, where it provides shelter for indigenous tribal people, tigers, Asian elephants, and the rare Sumatra rhinoceros. Illegal cutting is booming in this area - helped along by the Burmese military regime. Much of the timber is smuggled into Thailand (with the help of corrupt Thai politicians and businesspeople) for processing and export, as is the case with timber originating from Laos."


Anecdotally; the oldest and biggest teak in the world is in Uttaradit Province, Thailand. It is more than 1,500 years old. The tree is 47 metres tall, and the circumference of the trunk is 10.23 metres. Couldn't find a recent picture though, so it could have gone the way of the Dodo bird or the Thylacine <-(alleged to not be extinct, but evidently pretty rare on the ground).


It would also appear from a brief google on the subject that there are viable teak plantations producing salable timber in many Central/South America.

BACK ON TOPIC:
I'd tell the O/P to have his thai significant other get someone to cut 'em down, and then pretend he's just a stupid white buffalo foreigner if anything happens.. Shouldn't be too tough of an acting gig to pull that off.

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## Horatio Hornblower

Had a guy around this week about trees.

Says he can cut and get permission to fell the trees and log, for 8,000 baht, normally i would go with it, though now because of the present regime, I'm very apprehensive to do.

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## Horatio Hornblower

Not under the present admin of the country,it wouldn't be me anyway that would face the problem, that would go to the wife, though i would have to pay.

Going by the book presently, stops the problems.





> TOTALLY OFF TOPIC;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by thaimeme
> 
> ...

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## rickschoppers

Yesterday there were 5 government workers who came out and looked at the teak trees next door. My wife said the owner may be selling the land and maybe the government sent out some cronnies to take a look. Either way, the owner is now on the books with regard to how many teak trees he owns and how big they are.

We will see what continues to happen with this great teak scam of Thailand.

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## Horatio Hornblower

Rick they don't have scams in Thailand,they have procedures to follow, the westerners not understand Thainess. :Smile:

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## rickschoppers

Heh. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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