#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Teaching In Thailand >  >  Whats a qualified teacher?

## bruceveld

i think some of the curent threads have, in my opinion, some very poor analogies about teaching and qualifications.

I spent 13 years of my life studying general subject matter with "qualified" teachers.  Then I went to university and all of my teachers were apparently "unqualified" because they had never studied Education, just specialized in their field of study.  That went on for the rest of my education, right through my MBA (which,according to some websites, I really do not have lol).  Some of these teachers were horrible in the classroom.  But they were experts in their field of study.  They could have REALLY sued some teacher training, though.

Now, lets take a look at the poor TEFLers you guys like to disparrage so often.

All of us natie speakers are experts at the English language.  Our usage level is Native and completely fluent.  And if we have any kind of decent education we should be able to spell and string together a sentence or two.  Believe it or not, we are experts in English language compared to the rest of the world.

Now, can we teach?  Teaching language is quite different than teaching other subjects.  Good teachers get a great deal of student participation.  If you get some training, even as little as four weeks, will give many some basic skills that can make them successful English teachers.  Will four weeks be ALL we need?  Of ocurse not.  Thats just a drivers permit to teaching english.  All good teachers learn through their expereinces how to continually improve their teaching techniques and, obviously, more training is better than less training.

I am biased, I get it.  But just because someone has "only" a four-week TESL does not make them a poor or unqualified teachers.....

----------


## pai nai ma

underqualified as opposed to unqualified, imo.

----------


## bruceveld

I have met some amazing teachers who never had day 1 of training.....

----------


## pai nai ma

Me too. 

So your argument is that training is meaningless?

----------


## nidhogg

> They could have REALLY sued some teacher training, though.
> 
> Now, lets take a look at the poor TEFLers you guys like to disparrage so often.
> 
> All of us natie speakers are experts at the English language. 
> 
> Of ocurse not. 
> 
> expereinces


Kinda shot down your own argument there mate.

----------


## Marmite the Dog

A qualified teacher is one who kids learn from in a positive way.

----------


## bruceveld

> Originally Posted by bruceveld
> 
> 
>  
> They could have REALLY sued some teacher training, though.
> 
> Now, lets take a look at the poor TEFLers you guys like to disparrage so often.
> 
> All of us natie speakers are experts at the English language. 
> ...


if you look in a dictionary (its a big book with lots of words) you might find there is a difference between TYPO and MISSPELLING.

Oh when trolls resort to typo flames.....

----------


## pai nai ma

Learning how to teach can expose you to ideas and experiences that make you a better teacher.

Learning how to teach for 160 hours will expose you to fewer ideas and experiences that learning how to teach for 4 years or 6 years.

Experience in teaching, whether derived on the job or in specialized training, matters.

----------


## Topper

I think I'll let my betters chip in on this one before I spew forth my opinion.

----------


## Khun Custard

> A qualified teacher is one who kids learn from in a positive way.


Well put MtD

----------


## Topper

Fuck it...I haven't ranted in a while!

Whats a qualified teacher?  Hell, thats easy!  A teacher that meets the legal requirements to be employed as a teacher.  "Qualified" means, to me, that there is a predetermined set of requirements that a teacher has to have before they can teach.  Thus, the teacher is "Qualified".

----------


## bruceveld

> Learning how to teach can expose you to ideas and experiences that make you a better teacher.
> 
> Learning how to teach for 160 hours will expose you to fewer ideas and experiences that learning how to teach for 4 years or 6 years.
> 
> Experience in teaching, whether derived on the job or in specialized training, matters.


more is better.

We get it.

But accoding to the prevailing logic of this board, only people with degrees in education are "qualified" to teach.  this means that the entire US Higher Education system, considered to be the best in the world by many, is staffed almost entirely by unqualified teachers.

In my opinion, and I have seen a lot of TEFLers, most native speakers with a degree, a personality and 120 hours of training can be at least adequate English teachers.

----------


## Topper

Now a person qualifed as a teacher doesn't mean that person is or even can be a teacher.  Two different things...qualifications vs. the ability to teach.

----------


## pai nai ma

I would also argue that while being a qualified teacher isn't exactly the same as being a properly credentialed or a quality teacher -- thier is a place where the three intersect.  

Training, experience, mentorships, practicims, and obervation/feedback are all very helpful in improving as a teacher. Improve to a certain level and you are qualified/crdentialed/good at what you do.

----------


## Mr Pot

> All of us natie speakers are experts at the English language. Our usage level is Native and completely fluent. And if we have any kind of decent education we should be able to spell and string together a sentence or two. Believe it or not, we are experts in English language compared to the rest of the world.


I have to disagree; I am native english speaking and many times Thais have asked me to speak slower or clearer regarding my use of the English language. I'm certainly not an expert as you suggest that we all are.

Being a UK native (or any other native English speaking country for that matter) results with many different accents and dialects; I for one am extremely lazy sometimes when speaking English. Although I make a different effort when speaking to Thais than Farang I will still have shortcuts in my dialogue.

Simple things like "Bottle of Water" I easily say without pronouncing the T's and therefore misunderstood. Though I have never sat in an international English lecture I'm sure that the standard of English is far superior than most _native_ English speakers. There are posters on here who's second language is English and they consistently write posts with a high standard of English not tainted by regional accents, slang and laziness.




> if you look in a dictionary (its a big book with lots of words) you might find there is a difference between TYPO and MISSPELLING. Oh when trolls resport to typo flames.....


There is a difference but there is also effort to be considered.

----------


## bruceveld

> Learning how to teach for 160 hours will expose you to fewer ideas and experiences that learning how to teach for 4 years or 6 years.


Here is my question to you.

Which would be more beneficial?  160 hours of training + 6 years of expereince or just 6 years of training?

As Diane Larson Freeman says, we don't know much about teacher training but we know teachers learn more by actually teaching than by any other means.

----------


## pai nai ma

You sell the bare minimun, Bruce. From what I read most of your students leave happy. Cool! Are they qualified/properly credentialed/good teachers?

----------


## Topper

> In my opinion, and I have seen a lot of TEFLers, most native speakers with a degree, a personality and 120 hours of training can be at least adequate English teachers.


Adequate is all you're looking for now Bruce?

----------


## bruceveld

> Originally Posted by bruceveld
> 
> All of us natie speakers are experts at the English language. Our usage level is Native and completely fluent. And if we have any kind of decent education we should be able to spell and string together a sentence or two. Believe it or not, we are experts in English language compared to the rest of the world.
> 
> 
> I have to disagree; I am native english speaking and many times Thais have asked me to speak slower or clearer regarding my use of the English language. I'm certainly not an expert as you suggest that we all are.
> 
> Being a UK native (or any other native English speaking country for that matter) results with many different accents and dialects; I for one am extremely lazy sometimes when speaking English. Although I make a different effort when speaking to Thais than Farang I will still have shortcuts in my dialogue.
> 
> ...


 
ALL of these variations, and our ability to deal with them all seemlessly, SHOWS we are experts in English.  And all the dialects are all valid and "correct" English.  Unless you are English--then you believe there is only ONE way to say everything...  lol

----------


## pai nai ma

> Which would be more beneficial? 160 hours of training + 6 years of expereince or just 6 years of training?


assuming the quality of the two experiences is the same, then the answer is easy -- 6 years trupms 160 hours.

----------


## pai nai ma

Bruce, you arent arguing that your training exceeds an MA are you?

----------


## bruceveld

pai nai ma... they are qualified if the country where they seek employment says they are.  I have seen some course "stars" go out and fail because they did not take their jobs seriously.   I have seen some marginal passes go on the be praised by their employers as excellent teachers.

CSFFAN,as a minimum standard, adequate is all you can expect in 4 weeks.  Hopefully, with 6 months + experience they are better.

----------


## Mr Pot

> ALL of these variations, and our ability to deal with them all seemlessly, SHOWS we are experts in English. And all the dialects are all valid and "correct" English. Unless you are English--then you believe there is only ONE way to say everything... lol


Surely the only way to reach that expertise is to be raised in the said country and exposed daily to the idiosyncrasies of each nations particular language; and also, earlier the better.

----------


## pai nai ma

> Whats a qualified teacher? Hell, thats easy! A teacher that meets the legal requirements to be employed as a teacher. "Qualified" means, to me, that there is a predetermined set of requirements that a teacher has to have before they can teach. Thus, the teacher is "Qualified".


  And in Thailand, in terms of ESL, there is only the broadest and most cursery of requirements -- I dont think its even defined as to the number of hours or whether you do observed teaching. It's a joke.

----------


## bruceveld

> Originally Posted by bruceveld
> 
> Which would be more beneficial? 160 hours of training + 6 years of expereince or just 6 years of training?
> 
> 
> assuming the quality of the two experiences is the same, then the answer is easy -- 6 years trupms 160 hours.


I competely disagree.  That person walks out of their training as a completely inexpereinced teacher.  At year seven the guy with all the training may be an all star.  But the guy with the experience trumps the recent grad.

----------


## Topper

> And in Thailand, in terms of ESL, there is only the boadest and most cursery of requirements -- I dont think its even defined as to the number of hours or wheter you do observed teaching. It's a joke.


Now, in the TEFL cert business's defense..do their customers really look for a legal document that will allow them to teach Engrish in every country of the world, or are they looking for a little training and experience before they give it a chance.

----------


## pai nai ma

You provide a product for this niche market, Bruce.

It appears to leave your students happy in terms of price and quality. Does it make them Qualified in the Thai market? Yes, because it doesnt matter.

Are they as qualified as an MA level Teacher who has studied and taught in practici=um settings and graduate courses for years? of course not.

----------


## bruceveld

> Bruce, you arent arguing that your training exceeds an MA are you?


No. I know of some very good MA programs.

I know others that are purely theoretical. Put a TEFL grad against them and the TEFLer would clean the floor with them, all other expereicne being equal.

----------


## Camel Toe

> Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog
> 
> A qualified teacher is one who kids learn from in a positive way.
> 
> 
> Well put MtD


If teaching in Thailand you might add *fun* to that.

----------


## bruceveld

> You provide a product for this niche market, Bruce.
> 
> It appears to leave your students happy in terms of price and quality. Does it make them Qualified in the Thai market? Yes, because it doesnt matter.
> 
> Are they as qualified as an MA level Teacher who has studied and taught in practici=um settings and graduate courses for years? of course not.


Can we all agree that TEFLers are not MA's?  if a job requies an MA, TEFLers need not apply.  At the same time the only MA/PhD I ever had teach me was in university and grad school and these guys had NO teacher training at all.

Your post is a study in the obvious...  lol

----------


## pai nai ma

EDITED ** Bruce -- You run a successful business. You provide and entry level credential and some training to students wishing to teach ESL. I have no problem with that.

----------


## Mr Pot

> If teaching in Thailand you might add fun to that.


Isn't fun a positive thing?

----------


## Accidental Ajarn

Market forces determines who is a qualified teacher. If someone is willing to pay for your teaching, you are qualified.

But the way, at least at Aussie Universities many professors are now being required to take a graduate diploma program in teaching even if they have PhDs in their field.

----------


## Topper

> Are they as qualified as an MA level Teacher who has studied and taught in practici=um settings and graduate courses for years? of course not.


Actually, a mere tefler might be underqualifed compared to someone that has studied and taught in that environment....

But the big question is, what was the outcomes generated by the students from that well qualified teachers efforts? My guess the outcomes could have been as varied as there are PEOPLE rather than qualifications.  Thats why there are successful scum bag tefler's with 120 day degree or less.  

At the end of the day, all education does is give a few tools to people that ain't got the common sense to apply to the real word.

----------


## pai nai ma

You have no need to be defensive so long as your customers/clients remain happy.

I would also add that you need to be cautious of overselling your product.

You provide an entry credential, a modicum of training nad (hopefully) a long list of additional areas your students need to learn/grow.

cool.

----------


## pai nai ma

Apparently the trainer you have is quite good -- so i have read any way numerous times from various happy clients of yours.

----------


## pai nai ma

> Market forces determines who is a qualified teacher. If someone is willing to pay for your teaching, you are qualified.


The market in Thailand requires a pink skin and a pulse.

----------


## nidhogg

> Market forces determines who is a qualified teacher. If someone is willing to pay for your teaching, you are qualified.


Utter tripe - even within the context of Thailand.

----------


## bruceveld

> You have no need to be defensive so long as your customers/clients remain happy.
> 
> I would also add that you need to be cautious of overselling your product.
> 
> You provide an entry credential, a modicum of training nad (hopefully) a long list of additional areas your students need to learn/grow.
> 
> cool.


Yes we LITERALLY call it a learners permit to teach English.

But my point is that, unlike accountants and doctors, English teachers who are native speakers only need to learn some TEACHING techniques, they do not need to learn their entire subject matter.

----------


## pai nai ma

ESL (IN THAILAND) is a waste dump with few rules, zero enforcement, corner cutters, bullshitters, drunks liars and lots of vulnerable kids.

----------


## Accidental Ajarn

Teacher is such a vague word and to think there is one set of qualifications is absurd. To be qualified to "teach" 3 year olds in nursey school requires very different qualifications than it is to "teach" Econometrics to PhD students.

Bruce's course makes his students qualified for the jobs they get, otherwise they wouldn't get the jobs. However, one could argue they probably could have gotten the same job without his 4 week wonder course, but that is another issue.

----------


## pai nai ma

> But my point is that, unlike accountants and doctors, English teachers who are native speakers only need to learn some TEACHING techniques, they do not need to learn their entire subject matter.


DO NOT OVERSELL. The learners permit is a grweat metaphor. and DONT EXCUSE A SHITTY COUNTRY WIDE SYSTEM.

English teaching  in Thailand -- sucks cock and we all know it.

----------


## pai nai ma

> Bruce's course makes his students qualified for the jobs they get, otherwise they wouldn't get the jobs. However, one could argue they probabloy could have gotten the same job withour his 4 week wonder course, but that is another issue.


You would get the same job if you printed out a Certiicate on your compuer and signed HUGE HARDON.

----------


## Accidental Ajarn

"ESL (IN THAILAND) is a waste dump with few rules, zero enforcement, corner cutters, bullshitters, drunks liars and lots of vulnerable kids."

And what is your point?

If students or who ever is footing the bills don't find value in what they receive why do they keep paying? Is it because you know it all and those actually paying can not see for themselves value in what they pay for?

----------


## pai nai ma

> But my point is that, unlike accountants and doctors, English teachers who are native speakers only need to learn some TEACHING techniques, they do not need to learn their entire subject matter.


Give your students this message. work your ass off to learn all you can to be the best teacher you can. here are some ides of where you have naturral talent and here are some ideas where you really need to do some work. now fuck off and go get a job.

----------


## Accidental Ajarn

"You would get the same job if you printed out a Certiicate on your compuer and signed HUGE HARDON."

If that is what it takes to get some jobs, so be it, that is what makes one qualified. 

I can assure you one needs actually qualification to get a subject matter job at the better International Universities in Thailand, so to be qualified to teach 2nd graders in nakorn nowhere does not make you qualified to teach in Chula's PhD program.

----------


## pai nai ma

> If students or who ever is footing the bills don't find value in what they receive why do they keep paying? Is it because you know it all and those actually paying can not see for themselves value in what they pay for?


Why do people in thailand pay folks to put false braces on their teeth? Its a business. Thai's really dont know how to be students nor have any reak world interest in learning englisg. HUGE GENERAIZATION> but largely true. imo

----------


## pai nai ma

> I can assure you one needs actually qualification to get a subject matter job at the better International Universities in Thailand, so to be qualified to teach 2nd graders in nakorn nowhere does not make you qualified to teach in Chula's PhD program.


 sure. and quality schools get competition for teachers. international schools can and do require real degrees, experience, training, credentials. some uni's do. but overall teaching english, in thailand, (with some exceptions) is ajoke. a scam. a lucrative business .

----------


## pai nai ma

No one really gives a shit. not the school, not the admin, not the govt, not the parents, not the kids and usually not the teacher. if you care to much you go fucking shithouse.

----------


## Accidental Ajarn

"Thai's really dont know how to be students nor have any reak world interest in learning englisg. HUGE GENERAIZATION> but largely true. imo""

Again, whats the point? If they are happy with a teacher than they must be getting what THEY want, since you are not paying, what you want is of little importance.

----------


## Accidental Ajarn

"a lucrative business "


What wrong with that? Beats the hell out of being in a money losing business

----------


## pai nai ma

You try to hard bruce. be happy providing what you do. stop prosilyting. stop trying to convert. fuck the few naysayers.

are your clients happy? do provide a service for the buck? and do you tell them headon that they have merely scratched the service of what it REALLY means to teach or be a teacher.

----------


## Topper

> HUGE GENERAIZATION


Fuck, its Thailand isn't it....HUGE generalizations are the norm, don't you think?

----------


## Accidental Ajarn

I see Bruce as being no different than a used car salesman or any other small time businessman, he has found a market and the market is paying him for his service/product.

----------


## pai nai ma

> What wrong with that? Beats the hell out of being in a money losing business


whats wrong is that kids are not learning, progeassing, retaining. they leave thje process AFRAI to fucking speak!!!

----------


## Accidental Ajarn

"HUGE generalizations"

Hey you quoted me quoting someone else who was responding to yet another person, I think anyway.

----------


## Topper

> You try to hard bruce. be happy providing what you do. stop prosilyting. stop trying to convert. fuck the few naysayers. are your clients happy? do provide a service for the buck? and do you tell them headon that they have merely scratched the service of what it REALLY means to teach or be a teacher.


Good advice...sounds familiar...but then again what do I know.

----------


## pai nai ma

Where to yoyu disagree bruce, aa, csffan, whomever. i will listen.

----------


## Accidental Ajarn

"whats wrong is that kids are not learning, progeassing, retaining."

Take a deep breath there. This is exactly the thing teachers in the USA, UK, Canada, German, Japan and every other country claim.

Thailand has done alright (despite the loopy politicians) in improving the economy and the lives of its citizens over the last 50 years. Ok, it is not jolly ole England (isn't that why we like it?) but it is moving forward and moving at its own pace. No one asked you to come to Thailand to reform the entire society and educational system, only to help out teaching English.

----------


## pai nai ma

> Hey you quoted me quoting someone else who was responding to yet another person, I think anyway.


if so, my error. unintentional

----------


## pai nai ma

> No one asked you to come to Thailand to reform the entire society and educational system, only to help out teaching English.


agreed. but its hard to be in the mix when its so very very bad.

----------


## pai nai ma

It's like the gold rush where everyone is interested in the money.

schools pack the kidfs 50 to a class. language mills get some drunk to blubber at usereous rates. admis cut corners.

----------


## pai nai ma

and we havnt really touched on educational philosophy learning theory.

thais are afraid of english because they have been abused by ignorent grammarians fron elemantary scholl.

----------


## Accidental Ajarn

^

No its not so bad,compared to what?

Teaching in LA where the kids are more likely than not to be in a gang and you can expect at least one of your pupils will be dead or in jail before the end of each semester?

Take Thailand for what it is, and teaching in Thailand for what it is. For the vast majority of your students, they will have a good and productive life even if they never learn how to use the future perfect continious tense in English correctly.

----------


## pai nai ma

they dont love the language and welcome chances to speak/interact in english. they are afraid to make a mistake.

----------


## Topper

> I see Bruce as being no different than a used car salesman or any other small time businessman, he has found a market and the market is paying him for his service/product.


Personally, I see you as a dickhead. But sense neither of our personaly opinions are related to the OP, lets keep it on topic.

----------


## AntRobertson

Given the behaviour that is displayed on here at times it disturbs me that some posters are teachers.

I'm not going to name any names, and I'd really hate to _accidentally_ name a _teacher_, but that type of person has no business being anywhere near a classroom (unless it's with a mop, rag, cleaning and other janitorial products).

----------


## pai nai ma

> Take Thailand for what it is, and teaching in Thailand for what it is. For the vast majority of your students, they will have a good and productive life even if they never learn how to use the future perfect continious tense in English correctly.


agreed.

and this reality should shape the goals we set.

in thailand eduaction is socialization. group living, deference to authority, parroting back numbers/rules, keeping your mouth shut, not excelling or dragging the group.

----------


## pai nai ma

> Personally, I see you as a dickhead. But sense neither of our personaly opinions are related to the OP, lets keep it on topic.


tsk tsk. were talkin here

----------


## Accidental Ajarn

"they dont love the language"

Does ever british kid fall in love with French? Does every American jump at the chnace to speak Spanish as it is becoming so widely used?

If not ever THai learns to speak perfect English, life will go on. Do the best you can, enjoy the job and your students and don't waste your time in attempting to change the entire culture of Thailand to fit your idealized version of what it should be.

----------


## Camel Toe

Bruce, my paper quals are probably between medium to high if judged by all of what I've seen by reading about TEFL/ESOL/ESL since 1981.  

Two points of interest, to me at least:

EVERYTHING you need to know about teaching is on the Internet.

THERE IS NOTHING NEW to pedagogy.  I have heard this from professors and have read it so many times it's as true as gravity.  It just might look new but it is, in fact, an old idea with a dazzling new title glued on for the purpose of marketing the public.

Take a motivated teacher-to-be with an above average IQ who was nurtured by teachers or who has, by whatever means a don for teaching, he will teach, no matter what TEFL course he takes, or if he even takes a TEFL course.

My point being:  TEFL trainers teach people who need the training, not all people need the training.  Many folks think they need it because they've never had a teaching experience, and are unsure of themselves, but are SOLD on the idea a short course will get them a gig and make them legal to teach.  If they are natural teachers with a university degree in people/teaching-related subjects, already know how to google, but are forced by legal  restrictions to be in the TEFL class, you end up with an already-qualified teacher bored to the point he'll be the student from Hell.
Yo, presente!

I don't have a TEFL certificate, have taught in two of the best universities in Latin America, high schools, grade schools, teacher training classes too.
And I learned it from mum and dad, university professors, O J T and G O O G L E.

There must be people like me out there in the teaching world.  So from all of us we say, WE DON'T WANT OR NEED YOU!  You're a salesman, go away!

----------


## Topper

> they dont love the language and welcome chances to speak/interact in english. they are afraid to make a mistake.


Funny, I can walk thru my school yard and have a constant stream of students wanting to talk with me.  Perhaps its the "approachablity" of a teacher that you should be questioning.

----------


## pai nai ma

> Given the behaviour that is displayed on here at times it disturbs me that some posters are teachers.


poo pay. poor system. rotten admins. no real theory to what goes one. too much face saving. what do you expect?

----------


## pai nai ma

what's your situation cssfan?

----------


## AntRobertson

> Originally Posted by AntRobertson
> 
> Given the behaviour that is displayed on here at times it disturbs me that some posters are teachers.
> 
> 
> poo pay. poor system. rotten admins. no real theory to what goes one. too much face saving. what do you expect?


'Tis a poor workman that blames their tools.

----------


## Topper

> Given the behaviour that is displayed on here at times it disturbs me that some posters are teachers.


At times the stuff I see in "Issues" disturbs me that some people claim to be homo sapians.  :Smile:

----------


## Accidental Ajarn

"in thailand eduaction is socialization. group living, deference to authority, parroting back numbers/rules, keeping your mouth shut, not excelling or dragging the group."

Too judgemental

Thailand is collectivist, we from the West are more individualistic.

Thai are more respectful of heirarchies, we from the West are more egalitarian

We from the West are more confrontational while in Thailand they are more willing to avoid confrontation (although current political events don't support this statement).

Different is different, doesn't have to be better or worse.

If you want to last in a foreign culture, it is better to acknowledge differences without always having to be judgemental

----------


## pai nai ma

> There must be people like me out there in the teaching world. So from all of us we say, WE DON'T WANT OR NEED YOU! You're a salesman, go away!


555 bruce is making a living. he could be lots worse. i think he seems to care about his product. many dont. dont get bruce all hopped up!

----------


## Topper

> what's your situation cssfan?


define situation?

----------


## Accidental Ajarn

Ant

I knew who you are refering to, you silly ole goose

----------


## nidhogg

> Given the behaviour that is displayed on here at times it disturbs me that some posters are teachers.


Indeed.  The point here that everyone seems to be missing is its not what Bruce says that determines what is a teacher, its not what AA says, or indeed what any other person says that has the slightest impact on what makes a teacher, and more pertinently a qualified teacher - its the government, or more precisely the Ministry of Education (in whatever form) who says what makes a teacher.

And, unless I miss my bet completely, the ministry has said that a 4 week course does NOT make a teacher, and most certainly does not make a qualified teacher.

Hence the protracted squeals of outrage and pain on the side of many TEFLers.

Now the reality of it is, it will be badly implimented and badly enforced for some time - but that is whats comming.

----------


## Camel Toe

> Originally Posted by Camel Toe
> 
> If teaching in Thailand you might add fun to that.
> 
> 
> Isn't fun a positive thing?


Yes, so are Christmas candy canes hanging off your shirt pocket and a big Scooby Doo embroidered on your neck tie.

Fun is in Natural Learning.

----------


## pai nai ma

> 'Tis a poor workman that blames their tools.


imagine your alma mater (law school) with no books or library. 3 times the students in class. doul ble the work load on the proffs. a greedy skimming admin. and zero quality assurance at the end of the dgree/learning process.

----------


## AntRobertson

> Ant
> 
> I knew who you are refering to, you silly ole goose


Damn, obviously not subtle enough.  :Very Happy:

----------


## pai nai ma

Wat school. nternational school, uni??????????? etc...

----------


## Camel Toe

> It's like the gold rush where everyone is interested in the money.


More like a school of sharks looking for wounded swimmers.

----------


## pai nai ma

> imagine your alma mater (law school) with no books or library. 3 times the students in class. doul ble the work load on the proffs. a greedy skimming admin. and zero quality assurance at the end of the dgree/learning process.


respond to this with your tools metaphor, ant.

----------


## AntRobertson

> Originally Posted by AntRobertson
> 
> 'Tis a poor workman that blames their tools.
> 
> 
> imagine your alma mater (law school) with no books or library. 3 times the students in class. doul ble the work load on the proffs. a greedy skimming admin. and zero quality assurance at the end of the dgree/learning process.


I take your point but it's a poor analogy; I wouldn't attend/study/teach at such a place.

----------


## pai nai ma

> And, unless I miss my bet completely, the ministry has said that a 4 week course does NOT make a teacher, and most certainly does not make a qualified teacher.  Hence the protracted squeals of outrage and pain on the side of many TEFLers.  Now the reality of it is, it will be badly implimented and badly enforced for some time - but that is whats comming. nidhogg is online now Add to nidhogg's Reputation Report Post


Re you talking about the thai culyure classes that are supposedly being implemented?

----------


## Accidental Ajarn

"unless I miss my bet completely, the ministry has said that a 4 week course does NOT make a teacher, and most certainly does not make a qualified teacher."

I think you missed your bet completely.

If Bruce's students weren't getting jobs, he would be out of business real soon. You can hold your breath waiting for all foreign english teachers to be required to have full teachers qualifications to teach in Thailand, but I think you will be holding your breath for a very long time. Most more advanced economies such as Japan or Korea have not went to that extreme, to think Thailand will does not seem very logical to me.

----------


## pai nai ma

> I take your point but it's a poor analogy; I wouldn't attend/study/teach at such a place.


and those that would are often not the best and the brightest. and if you are good and bright you just get worn down by the bullshit, over time.

----------


## nidhogg

> Re you talking about the thai culyure classes that are supposedly being implemented?


Nope.  The other "thingy" - the real one (sorry not in the field so not up on the terminology).  Uh, dunno - but it takes a couple of years part time.

----------


## pai nai ma

Bruce i want to ask you some questions, cool?

----------


## pai nai ma

> I take your point but it's a poor analogy; I wouldn't attend/study/teach at such a place.


PGCE or whatever??

----------


## pai nai ma

> If Bruce's students weren't getting jobs, he would be out of business real soon. You can hold your breath waiting for all foreign english teachers to be required to have full teachers qualifications to teach in Thailand, but I think you will be holding your breath for a very long time. Most more advanced economies such as Japan or Korea have not went to that extreme, to think Thailand will does not seem very logical to me.


never happen here. i agree.

----------


## pai nai ma

fuckin bruce is wacthing thai tv!!!!!!!

----------


## pai nai ma

AA -- yourin cambo???

----------


## nidhogg

> never happen here. i agree.


We will see.

----------


## pai nai ma

> Most more advanced economies such as Japan or Korea have not went to that extreme, to think Thailand will does not seem very logical to me.


korea and japan to a lot better job than thailand in terms of requirering degrees ect!!!!

----------


## Camel Toe

> or more precisely the Ministry of Education (in whatever form) who says what makes a teacher.


Yes, to get the gig.  To keep the gig you have to be popular:  And popular means, fun, don't fail anyone, get along with Thai staffers, smile a lot even at luncheons when the phet is burning your guts, stay out of shady nightclubs, and most of all, be smart and well-groomed.

----------


## pai nai ma

seems i am alone. 5555 sorry if i killed the discussion. later boys.

----------


## pai nai ma

white skin

pulse

clothes

dont let class out early.

dont shit your pants (very often)

----------


## Camel Toe

He'll be back.  He lives for all the




> sjjne eyks


You aren't too smart are you?




> nh shuor mmnsyu


Evidence?




> nm i jjeie jie


Prove it troll!




> mmnnf ujdhpi


Never said that, learn to read!

----------


## bruceveld

> Bruce, my paper quals are probably between medium to high if judged by all of what I've seen by reading about TEFL/ESOL/ESL since 1981. 
> 
> Two points of interest, to me at least:
> 
> EVERYTHING you need to know about teaching is on the Internet.
> 
> THERE IS NOTHING NEW to pedagogy. I have heard this from professors and have read it so many times it's as true as gravity. It just might look new but it is, in fact, an old idea with a dazzling new title glued on for the purpose of marketing the public.
> 
> Take a motivated teacher-to-be with an above average IQ who was nurtured by teachers or who has, by whatever means a don for teaching, he will teach, no matter what TEFL course he takes, or if he even takes a TEFL course.
> ...


Learning to teach is very much like learning to drive a car.  READING about it does not do it.  You have to practice it before you start to get it down. 

We all have 12+ years of experience watching teachers.  But teaching languages is so different than teaching other subjects that we actually have to UN train oursleves.

A lot of people THINK they are wonderful teachers but in reality they SUCK.  One guy who is now the lead trainer on a competitors course nearly failed our course because he thought his teaching was good enough.  I observed his first lesson and after listening to him tell me how wonderful it was I had to tell him just how bad it really was....

And your last sentence again shows what an utter WANKER you are.  But that just par for the course.

My gut feeling is you are one of those people who thinks they are God's gift but actually....

----------


## pai nai ma

Naw, Camel's cool.

Good morning, Bruce.

----------


## bruceveld

> Originally Posted by AntRobertson
> 
> 
> Given the behaviour that is displayed on here at times it disturbs me that some posters are teachers.
> 
> 
> Indeed. The point here that everyone seems to be missing is its not what Bruce says that determines what is a teacher, its not what AA says, or indeed what any other person says that has the slightest impact on what makes a teacher, and more pertinently a qualified teacher - its the government, or more precisely the Ministry of Education (in whatever form) who says what makes a teacher.
> 
> And, unless I miss my bet completely, the ministry has said that a 4 week course does NOT make a teacher, and most certainly does not make a qualified teacher.
> ...


 
Nidhogg I think you fail to understand the MOE requiements.

In some isnstances all that is required is a degree

In some instances you need a degree + a cert

----------


## bruceveld

> Bruce i want to ask you some questions, cool?


Ask away!

----------


## pai nai ma

can't now. rain check?

----------


## bruceveld

> fuckin bruce is wacthing thai tv!!!!!!!


I play basketball every night....

----------


## bruceveld

> can't now. rain check?


I am off to the gym myself but I'll be back.

----------


## pai nai ma

^ good for the heart and the soul.

----------


## good2bhappy

to qualify to be a teacher or to get teaching qualifications?
Now think of a doctor.
To be qualified one needs a degree in medicine from a bone fide competent university. Then you have to do some training to get the equivalent of a practice certificate and then sometimes sit exams in the country that you wish to practice in. This is a profession.

----------


## nidhogg

> Nidhogg I think you fail to understand the MOE requiements.
> 
> In some isnstances all that is required is a degree
> 
> In some instances you need a degree + a cert


Sure I don't have the ins and outs of it.  But my point was merely that its the ministry who decides, at the end, what is a qualified teacher.

----------


## bruceveld

> to qualify to be a teacher or to get teaching qualifications?
> Now think of a doctor.
> To be qualified one needs a degree in medicine from a bone fide competent university. Then you have to do some training to get the equivalent of a practice certificate and then sometimes sit exams in the country that you wish to practice in. This is a profession.


And my whole POINT from the FIRST POST is we ALREADY KNOW ENGLISH.  To compare it to a subject that we first must master is apples and oranges.  Apples and Watermellons.  Apples and warthogs!

----------


## good2bhappy

> we ALREADY KNOW ENGLISH


That is highly debatable!

----------


## pai nai ma

> KNOW


some know it better than others.

and many have no understanding of aspects of the language important to learners even thogh they can sputter engris.

perhaps you take the knowing point to far.

----------


## kingwilly

> "they dont love the language"  Does ever british kid fall in love with French? Does every American jump at the chnace to speak Spanish as it is becoming so widely used?


Thanks for the great example. 

There are a number of reasons that these types of students do not learn to love the language, and large part of that lack of qualified and competent language teachers in these countries.....

----------


## bruceveld

> Originally Posted by Accidental Ajarn
> 
> "they dont love the language" Does ever british kid fall in love with French? Does every American jump at the chnace to speak Spanish as it is becoming so widely used?
> 
> 
> Thanks for the great example. 
> 
> There are a number of reasons that these types of students do not learn to love the language, and large part of that lack of qualified and competent language teachers in these countries.....


kingwilly that statement is a HUGE stretch........  Any evidence of that?

----------


## pai nai ma

> And my whole POINT from the FIRST POST is we ALREADY KNOW ENGLISH.


Any evidence of this?

----------


## kingwilly

> kingwilly that statement is a HUGE stretch........ Any evidence of that?


I dont see it as a huge strech, here is one article.




> An Australian national review of languages education  "Language Teachers: The Pivot of Policy" (May 1996).]
> 
>  The Letter of Presentation (19 April 1996) to then Education Minister Amanda Vanstone, seems well
>  worth re-reading ...
> 
> [/font]  Dear Minister
>  In June 1993 Mr Beazley asked the National Board of Employment, Education & Training 
>  to provide advice in the following terms:
>  Drawing on existing reviews, the Board is requested to provide advice on policy and 
> ...

----------


## Accidental Ajarn

KW

Totally missed the point. Teaching in Thailand is not all peaches and cream, neither is it anywhere else.

I am currently in a project which puts me in contact with university instructors throughout the USA. Guess what, they complain about the laziness of their students, the bureaucracy of the systems they work in and the incompetence of their colleagues. Almost word for word the same complainants heard from ESL teachers in Thailand.

No group in any country of teachers, students or educational administrators in any educational system is perfect.

Want to be a teacher, one must learn to live with imperfection.  

Well, maybe this not completely correct, KW might be the perfect teacher living his jet-setting high living lifestyle as SUPER KIDS TEACHER in a REAL INTERNATIONAL SCHOOL. 

But for all the rest of us, ESL Teachers and University Professors alike, low pay, imperfect students and ourselves being less than perfect is what we have to look forward to.

----------


## kingwilly

> KW  Totally missed the point.


really?

Bruce asked me for proof, I gave it to him.

How is that missing the point? I think you;ve missed the point here.

----------


## Jesus Jones

My ex wife was a terrible qualified teacher.

----------


## MisterStretch

Let me take exception to some of the things you've posted so far on this thread.



> And my whole POINT from the FIRST POST is we ALREADY KNOW ENGLISH. To compare it to a subject that we first must master is apples and oranges. Apples and Watermellons. Apples and warthogs!


Your first post showed that English isn't a language that you have mastered.  Whether you can teach it is another question.

I'm a long-time TEFL/TESOL teacher, having worked in many countries.  I've supervised both native speakers and local teachers, along with training native speakers and non-native speakers to enter the classroom to begin their careers as TEFL teachers.

I had a British woman in my course a few years ago who decided that teaching English was a good way to live and work in different countries and make enough money to do it.  After three days, she was ready to quit.  Why?  I demand that my 'teachers' actually become teachers.  I tell them all the same thing on the first day.  "When you finish this course you will not be expert English teachers, but you will be qualified beginners."  Good teaching is a never-ending learning process.

When I have a trainee that spews invective with such improper use of English as you have I generally tell them to take a deep breath and try again.

What's a qualified teacher?  A teacher who meets the qualification requirements of the country, state or municipality in which he wishes to work. It's a simple question with a simple answer.  Aristotlian logic and all of that. What an effective teacher is can be a completely different thing.  It depends on culture, teacher, students, teacher's ability, students' receptiveness and a great deal more.

For you to rant on for (what is it now, seven pages) as the arbiter of what makes a good or qualified teacher smacks of a superiority complex that may be displaced.

I've taught people that became great teachers.  They were interesting, engaging and understood how to teach from the students'-point-of-view, the most important place to be for a teacher.  I've also trained people who were just fucking awful because they never understood what the students needed or wanted.

It's always different for each person.  I can give them a framework and I can see from the training sessions who will be a good, who will be an acceptable teacher and who will be utterly abysmal.  I generally failed the latter.

Of all the training programs in Thailand, I may have failed the highest percentage.  When I finally left I turned around and discovered I had failed more than 10% of the people who took my course, that's not counting the ones who quit because they found it too hard.

For you to say you know more than anyone else about what makes a good teacher makes you omniscient and I didn't see your name on the last ballot for TEFL God that I received.

----------


## Camel Toe

> One guy who is now the lead trainer on a competitors course nearly failed our course because he thought his teaching was good enough. I observed his first lesson and after listening to him tell me how wonderful it was I had to tell him just how bad it really was....


Right on Mr, S.

Bruce, among your foreign staff there is a teacher trainer who failed his first 60-day evaluation as an instructor at a famous three-letter national chain English school.  He was let go .. let go and then he found you.  His ex-station was in Bangkok at the main branch, the largest of all the branches.  Ya musta run that lad through your magic methods and brought him round, eh?

----------


## jandajoy

*Whats a qualified teacher?*

*I am*

----------


## bruceveld

If you give any relatively educated native speaker an exam in english they will pass it at native level. Most of us can produce language that is nearly (but not completely) flawless. Either this is true or every English exam in the world is flawed. 

We can all use the most complicated grammar that exists in the English language. We often just might not know the name of it until we study it a bit.

King Willy your "proof" was one person's opinion on the training in LANGUAGES and there was no specific mention of English.

If "we" fail to know aspects of the language necessary for language learners EVERY CHILD BORN in the US, UK, etc. would be unable to speak English. Laughable when you think about it....

----------


## bruceveld

12345

----------


## Camel Toe

And if you lock a child up in a closet for the first 6 years of life, never to speak to him/her, they will never acquire a language.  Why do you suppose that is?

A child's instincts start to develop in the womb.  They are: 1) sucking 2) griping.  Then, 3) speech  4) fear of falling.  Some schools of thought even attribute 3 and 4 as prenatal. 




> If "we" *fail to know aspects of the language* necessary for language learners EVERY CHILD BORN in the US, UK, etc. would be unable to speak English.


Aspects like dangled participles?   Mark Renton and his mates (trainspotting) would have a Hell of a time explaining things to me, but amung themselves they did just fine.  Maybe I misread that statement.

----------


## jandajoy

> If "we" fail to know aspects of the language necessary for language learners EVERY CHILD BORN in the US, UK, etc. would be unable to speak English.


What nonsense.
The ability to manipulate a language has nothing to do with the understanding of the structure of said languge.
How many people can drive a car?
How many people are mechanics.

----------


## jandajoy

^^^^^^ Mr Stretch.......

Excellent post. We come from similar backgrounds and what you say echoes my own thoughts. Well said.

----------


## good2bhappy

> amung


maybe you should learn how to spell among!

----------


## bruceveld

> Originally Posted by bruceveld
> 
> If "we" fail to know aspects of the language necessary for language learners EVERY CHILD BORN in the US, UK, etc. would be unable to speak English.
> 
> 
> What nonsense.
> The ability to manipulate a language has nothing to do with the understanding of the structure of said languge.
> How many people can drive a car?
> How many people are mechanics.


Thats just silly. If you want to compare autos to language, we are able to fully assemble and disassemble a car, we must might not be able to name all the parts. Now we are not necessarily talking about the least educated who use strong local dialects or never were fully capable of writing that 10-pge report in 10th grade. 

By the way, how many languages do you speak, how well do (did) you speak them and who taught you?

----------


## jandajoy

> By the way, how many languages do you speak, how well do (did) you speak them and who taught you?


Do you really want to know?

----------


## bruceveld

> Originally Posted by bruceveld
> 
> By the way, how many languages do you speak, how well do (did) you speak them and who taught you?
> 
> 
> Do you really want to know?


Of course I want to know because those of us who have studied multiple languages might have some unique perspectives.

For me I have some competency the following languages:

Spanish, 3 years in High school by a US-qualified teacher.  Ability:  I can count to 10 and know a few simple words.

Cantonese:  18 months self study.  Fluent.

Mandarin:  3 years university with US-qualified teacher.  Ability:  Upper Beginner.

Thai:  ZERO study hours.  Ability:  Lower Intermediate.

There is info of significance in this and it has shaped the weay I teach.

----------


## jandajoy

Hmm. 

Don't think I'm really bothered at the moment. It's 02.00
Time for some horizontals.

Maybe catch you later.

----------


## Mr Pot

I am not getting AMUNG this one again; I hate making QUALIFIED SLAGDOG MONGERS look stupid.




> Of course I want to know because those of us who have studied multiple languages might have some unique perspectives. For me I have some competency the following languages: Spanish, 3 years in High school by a US-qualified teacher. Ability: I can count to 10 and know a few simple words. Cantonese: 18 months self study. Fluent. Mandarin: 3 years university with US-qualified teacher. Ability: Upper Beginner. Thai: ZERO study hours. Ability: Lower Intermediate. There is info of significance in this and it has shaped the weay I teach.


Can you please find a mutual masturbation forum?

Oh, sorry you are in one...I got lost; I forgot TeakDoor had a teaching in Thailand section.

----------


## Mister Fixit

> i think some of the curent threads have, in my opinion, some very poor analogies about teaching and qualifications.
> 
> I spent 13 years of my life studying general subject matter with "qualified" teachers. Then I went to university and all of my teachers were apparently "unqualified" because they had never studied Education, just specialized in their field of study. That went on for the rest of my education, right through my MBA (which,according to some websites, I really do not have lol). Some of these teachers were horrible in the classroom. But they were experts in their field of study. They could have REALLY sued some teacher training, though.
> 
> Now, lets take a look at the poor TEFLers you guys like to disparrage so often.
> 
> All of us natie speakers are experts at the English language. Our usage level is Native and completely fluent.


Apart from one, it seems, eh, Brucey-baby?  





> And if we have any kind of decent education we should be able to *spell and string together* a sentence or two.


Apart from one, it seems, eh, Brucey-baby?




> Believe it or not, we are experts in English language compared to the rest of the world.


Doesn't say much for the rest of the world, then if you are any example.  NO wonder TEFLers get a bad name if your writing is anything like those 'courses' you peddle to the unsuspecting.

Stick to flogging them, cause you sure shouldn't try to teach.

----------


## Mister Fixit

> Originally Posted by nidhogg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by bruceveld
> ...


 
Nah, nah, nah. I've unfortunately read many of your hubris-laden posts and believe me, these are not typos. 

You are not as literate as you seem to think you are - quite the opposite, in fact.

And pathetic ripostes such as 'if you look in a dictionary (its a big book with lots of words)' just demonstrates what a pathetic no-hoper you are. You should try reading one yourself one of these days. It might stop you looking such a c-u-n-t.

----------


## Accidental Ajarn

^
How pathetic would one’s life have to be to spend it searching various internet forums looking for spelling and grammar mistakes to point out?  Fuck, get a life dude, put your red pen down, no one is paying you to be little Johnny grammar teacher here.

----------


## pai nai ma

I think he is making a point beyond pointing out the grammar errors.

----------


## Camel Toe

> Originally Posted by Camel Toe
> 
>  amung
> 
> 
> maybe you should learn how to spell among!


Be kind to the lexdystic.

----------


## good2bhappy

ym poloegias

----------


## Camel Toe

Don't worry about any 6-year-old children you might have enrolled in our school, 600k from BKK, where there are 53 per class, no AC, no resources, and they can't read nor write.  I do numbers, colours, animals, fruits, and what's your name.  But you could write the admin a letter outlining your concerns about the backpacker they have employed.   :rofl:

----------


## MisterStretch

> If "we" fail to know aspects of the language necessary for language learners EVERY CHILD BORN in the US, UK, etc. would be unable to speak English. Laughable when you think about it....


I'm sorry, but does idiocy just spew from your mouth and fingers when you wish to communicate?  This is as stupid as your OP.

As you, poorly, pointed out we native speakers don't have to know the intricacies of grammar in order to speak the language correctly.  We also don't need to know those same intricacies, nor how to impart them to a second or third party in order to teach language to a child.

Let's take a deep breath and think...eh?  If you ask a three-year old child, "Have you eaten lunch, yet?"  The child is apt to reply, "No, I haven't."  The child doesn't know that it has responded in the the first person negative in the Present Perfect.  You may not know that you've asked a question in the same verb tense...your lack of this knowledge does not preclude the child from learning from you.

What are you smoking?

The only thing laughable is your attempt on this thread to talk like you know anything about imparting language to learners and the process attached to it.

Oh...BTW...2 years of high school Spanish with a non-native...intermediate.
I also speak Western African Criolu fluently, Brasilian Portuguese fluently enough to never need a dictionary or translator, a smattering of Malay, Thai and Korean.

I understand what it takes to learn a language...and in doing so I understand what it takes to teach effectively.

You, on the other hand, seem to sit in an office rather than in front of 30 or 40 students to determine what is needed by us teachers.

I laugh at you...hear me?  I laugh at you.

Hear me laughing?

What an idiot.

----------


## jandajoy

^ Very well said. Can't be bothered myself.

----------


## Camel Toe

> I am not getting AMUNG this one again; I hate making QUALIFIED SLAGDOG MONGERS look stupid.


So then I could search all your 1080 posts and not find an error, eh noob?  Or does a person who claims to be a teachers not make errors?  You anal, petty, white trash, ignorant piece of shit.  Oh no! I think he's going to red me again!  Fcukin girl!

Go on, make me look stupid.  Give it the ol' chav Clockwork Orange go.

----------


## nevets

It is a pity you have to use in print the bad words ,Mister Fixit of my language.

----------


## Roady

Teaching, huh? Lemme say just a few words which you are NOT GONNA FIND in your average ESL classroom:
1. REPUBLICANS SUCK They will fool you with religion and other ENORMOUS LIES to confuse your simple brain while they rob you of your culture and any resources which happen to be laying around. They will tell you it's 'God's will' and GLOBALIZATION IS GOOD. They will forget to mention that it's only good for the rich and will leave you struggling to make ends meet while paying taxes and interest to a cabal of JEWISH BANKERS.
2. BEWARE AMERICANS They came here from a decadent, porn-ridden society BUILT ON GUILT AND BULLSHIT!
3. TREASURE YOUR OWN Your culture is at least as good as any other on this planet. Don't let them steal it from you and leave you watching re-runs of GILLIGAN'S ISLAND or SECOND RATE NEWS brought to you live from the ZIONIST CONTROLLED PRESS which amounts to professional brainwashing.
4. LOOK AT HISTORY And find that the only people who really profit from 'advancing democracy' are the scumbags who OWN DEMOCRACY as it relates to you. If three million dead civilians in Vietnam don't wanna make you give your head a shake, then you really are 'inferior.'
5. PRAY FOR CANADA We are right next door to the CHOSEN FEW and if we were to assert our rights to an independent country they would bomb our socks off before breakfast and march in in the name of 'Freedom and Democracy.'
6. DON'T BLAME THE AMERICAN PEOPLE  They are as much the victim as anybody else of their corrupt government and Israeli owned media. Most Americans you meet are just as nice and decent as anybody else in this veil of tears we call 'civilization.'

That's it, I guess. Of course they will never publish this on this site but I feel better for venting anyway.

----------


## pai nai ma

wrong thread. post your poo in the correct thread and you will find support. unfortunately, folks in this thread can read.

----------


## jandajoy

^^ What an angry little Roady.

----------


## Camel Toe

> PRAY FOR CANADA


I'll get right on that!

----------


## Accidental Ajarn

Roady is gayfrenchiefly's new nic?

MS-Such anger. What exactly are you angry about and why?

----------


## Controversial

One that can stay in Thailand long term, with no qualifications, add nothing to the Thai education system and drink every day..

----------


## pai nai ma

come back, bruce. don't be embarrassed. we all have our ass handed to us on occasion.

----------


## pai nai ma

> Thai education system


 :rofl:

----------


## MisterStretch

> MS-Such anger. What exactly are you angry about and why?


Anger, what anger?

----------


## Accidental Ajarn

"I laugh at you...hear me? I laugh at you."

Oh, this is not anger?

Easy solution. Don't like Bruce's course, don't take it. So, all your problems are now solved.

----------


## MisterStretch

> "I laugh at you...hear me? I laugh at you."


Not anger, ridicule. Several of his contentions fly in the face of professional approaches to language instruction, in my experience and opinion.

I know nothing of Bruce's courses. I've never taken one of his courses so I can't comment on them.

I have had the misfortune to work with and interview some of his graduates, though.

----------


## Accidental Ajarn

"Several of his contentions fly in the face of professional approaches to language instruction, in my experience and opinion."

So you are Mr. know it all English Teacher?

"I have had the misfortune to work with and interview some of his graduates, though."

Ah, are you trying to say because some people spent 4 weeks of their 30 or 40 years in Bruce's school they are now useless?

Fuck dude, get a life. You are taking your being an English teacher a little too seriously.

----------


## kingwilly

> So you are Mr. know it all English Teacher?


Interesting that you like to disagree with anyone who does not follow your version of events...

gonna stalk him and claim that you've humiliated him also?






> Fuck dude, get a life. You are taking your being an English teacher a little too seriously.


So are you AA.

----------


## jandajoy

That's 'cos one is a professional and the other's not.

----------


## Accidental Ajarn

KW

WTF?

You seriously have a problem. 

Enjoy your "stalking?" What is the purpose?

----------


## Smeg

> I spent 13 years of my life studying general subject matter with "qualified" teachers. Then I went to university and all of my teachers were apparently "unqualified" because they had never studied Education, just specialized in their field of study. That went on for the rest of my education, right through my MBA (which,according to some websites, I really do not have lol). Some of these teachers were horrible in the classroom. But they were experts in their field of study. They could have REALLY sued some teacher training, though.


University lecturers are not teachers! Studying at university should be almost entirely self-motivated and self-led. Hence they do not require teacher training in the same way that a primary school teacher would. Strewth, isn't that obvious Bruce?




> Now, lets take a look at the poor TEFLers you guys like to disparrage so often. All of us natie speakers are experts at the English language. Our usage level is Native and completely fluent. And if we have any kind of decent education we should be able to spell and string together a sentence or two. Believe it or not, we are experts in English language compared to the rest of the world.
> 
> Now, can we teach? Teaching language is quite different than teaching other subjects.


Are you an expert on teaching other subjects?



> Good teachers get a great deal of student participation. If you get some training, even as little as four weeks, will give many some basic skills that can make them successful English teachers. Will four weeks be ALL we need? Of ocurse not. Thats just a drivers permit to teaching english. All good teachers learn through their expereinces how to continually improve their teaching techniques and, obviously, more training is better than less training.


The minimum for a "drivers permit"? I beg to differ. I do not think that this four-week requirement came from being assessed as a minimum benchmark. I am sure that it came purely from the vast majority of English teachers not wanting to spend time and money on training for such a transient and poorly paid profession.

----------


## Accidental Ajarn

^

And your point is?

----------


## Smeg

Erm, well, I guess it's "Bruce has been out in the sun too long"  :Smile:

----------


## Topper

> The minimum for a "drivers permit"? I beg to differ. I do not think that this four-week requirement came from being assessed as a minimum benchmark. I am sure that it came purely from the vast majority of English teachers not wanting to spend time and money on training for such a transient and poorly paid profession.


What background/experience do you have to offer an informed opinion?  A few hours teaching in a McDonalds?  What do you know about teachers motivations since, from what I understand, you've never been a teacher?  

I would dare say there are teachers here in Thailand making more money than you are back in merry ole England.

----------


## Smeg

^ I have this Postgraduate Certificate in Education - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
and this Qualified Teacher Status - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And you?

Do you have anything to say about what I wrote rather than sticking up for Bruce as usual by trying to discredit me?

And since I have been in Thailand for the past 3.5 years, you clearly know shit.

----------


## jandajoy

PGCE in what?
Now teaching what?

Just asking  :Smile:

----------


## Smeg

Want a resume while you are at it?

----------


## jandajoy

^ no thanks. I was simply interested to see if your PGCE had got anything to do with the job you're doing now. 

Pretty easy question to answer, I'd have thought.

----------


## Smeg

^ It might have been if it was any of your business or of any relevance whatsoever to my replies to bruce about university lecturers and 4-week TEFL courses.

----------


## jandajoy

Ah OK. Well thanks anyway. It's obviously a sensitive area for you. Less said the better.
Cheers.

----------


## Smeg

^  :tosser1: 

Presumably you are quite happy to answer all personal questions from anybody on the forum asked for any reason whatsoever. I'll look forward to that. Or are you just another bored thread-trasher?

----------


## jandajoy

> ^ Screwball


What a strange reaction to a perfectly civil question and response. 
I must apologise if I upset you. It wasn't intended.

----------


## MisterStretch

> So you are Mr. know it all English Teacher?


 Never said I was, like anyone else on this forum I am stating my opinion, based on my training, experience and research into the field. Just that.  I am entitled to my own opinion, am I not, or is that something I have to ask your permission for?  It seems like you have set yourself up as adjudicator into who can and cannot express an opinion.




> "I have had the misfortune to work with and interview some of his graduates, though."  Ah, are you trying to say because some people spent 4 weeks of their 30 or 40 years in Bruce's school they are now useless?


Never said that, I implied that they were not up to the standard I would have expected of someone who had completed an intense and comprehensive 4-week course...as I said before, that of a competent beginner.




> Fuck dude, get a life. You are taking your being an English teacher a little too seriously.


Thank you for your concern about my life.  I have one, thank you.  I also take being a TEFL/TESOL teacher very seriously.  I am a professional, not someone that is just biding my time before my next big adventure.  In addition to being a teacher and trainer, I've been a regional supervisor in an African country and helped develop that nation's national English curriculum, I've worked under contract to the Malaysian government as a curriculum and mulitmedia developer creating programs for local teachers to use in their classrooms, in addition to the numerous workshops I have helped develop and run over the years.

I don't say any of the above to toot my horn, but I want you to see, I do take my work seriously.  If you have no respect for those of us in this field, then perhaps you are the one that needs to get a life, or at least a better perspective on some of us that do this for a living.

----------


## Topper

> Do you have anything to say about what I wrote rather than sticking up for Bruce as usual by trying to discredit me?


Can you show me where I've stuck up for Bruce?  Link please!!!!!!

And why would anyone try to discredit you?  I only asked after your qualifications to deliver such an opinion.  

So you've got some piece of paper about teaching, yet apparently never have been in a classroom.  Almost like a doctor that has never seen a patient, an engineer that has never seen a construction site.  With all the experience you have, your opinion means what again?

My experience....a part time teacher (part of my job responsiblities) for over 20 years.  Many "train the trainer" and such seminars over the years and lots of experience in developing developing course curriculums and executing the course.  

5+ years here in Thailand teaching IT, science and English.  Today I saw 90 students...tomorrow I'll be seeing about 120 students and 4 more at a language center.  But other than a few seminars here I have very little training in TEFL.

But the difference between us Smeg, is I actually DO the stuff I talk about here on this thread, as opposed to you, who don't or can't.

----------


## Camel Toe

> Today I saw 90 students...tomorrow I'll be seeing about 120 students and 4 more at a language center.


That's a light load, bro.  Today I not only saw but taught 260.

----------


## MisterStretch

> University lecturers are not teachers!


Quite a blanket statement there, eh?

One of the reasons that I chose the university I did is that the professors in my major field of study had been pioneers in the field I had chosen.  Almost all of them (with the exception of one hapless jerk who I testified against at his tenure hearing) had tremendous amounts of real-world experience in addition to the educational weight that their degrees brought them.

In both my major and minor fields of study I had some of the best people available to teach me...to say that university lecturers are not teachers is a generalization that is short-sighted and smacks of personal vindictiveness.

Perhaps your university lecturers weren't qualified, but mine sure as hell were.




> Today I not only saw but taught 260


Today was a light day for me, I had a class cancelled.  I only had 105.  Most days are 120+...260?  Big classes or a damned heavy schedule. My hat's off to you.

----------


## Topper

^ Don't argue with Smeg...he's the expert!  :Smile:

----------


## Smeg

> Originally Posted by Smeg
> 
> Do you have anything to say about what I wrote rather than sticking up for Bruce as usual by trying to discredit me?
> 
> 
> Can you show me where I've stuck up for Bruce? Link please!!!!!!
> 
> And why would anyone try to discredit you? I only asked after your qualifications to deliver such an opinion.


What an odd thing to write. You jump on my reply to Bruce's OP and try to belittle it by writing



> A few hours teaching in a McDonalds? What do you know about teachers motivations since, from what I understand, you've never been a teacher?


Hardly " I only asked after your qualifications to deliver such an opinion". Then, when i provide the qualifications, you again try to belittle it. Your only intent here is to try to discredit me and somehow show that your opinion is more important. That makes you a complete twat. 

As for your wonderful experience, I have never taught in Thailand because I have the intelligence to see what a joke doing so is. But good luck to you all the same  :Wink:

----------


## MisterStretch

> ^ Don't argue with Smeg...he's the expert!


Bah, I'm the expert, or haven't you heard of my latest coronation?


> You are Mr. know it all English Teacher.


Matter settled.  AA has anointed me.

----------


## jandajoy

> As for your wonderful experience, I have never taught in Thailand because I have the intelligence to see what a joke doing so is.


So, where have you taught? Or is it another sensitive area?

----------


## Topper

> As for your wonderful experience, I have never taught in Thailand because I have the intelligence to see what a joke doing so is. But good luck to you all the same


So the reason you're posting in this thread is?

A.  To continue to brow beat Bruce.
B.  To continue to make fun of teachers in Thailand
C.  To offer your very expert advice on teaching in Thailand
D.  Because you're an insufferable asshole that needs confrontation to define your existance.

And the answer is!!!!!!!!!


Wait....




Wait.....











Come on now....wait......



All of the above!!!!!!

----------


## Smeg

> Originally Posted by Smeg
> 
> University lecturers are not teachers!
> 
> 
> Quite a blanket statement there, eh?
> 
> One of the reasons that I chose the university I did is that the professors in my major field of study had been pioneers in the field I had chosen. Almost all of them (with the exception of one hapless jerk who I testified against at his tenure hearing) had tremendous amounts of real-world experience in addition to the educational weight that their degrees brought them.
> 
> ...


You seem very touchy about this. Did they or did they not have to undergo formal teacher training? It's pretty simple. 




> Moving between University and School Teaching - Career Development - jobs.ac.uk
> *Qualifications* 
> You would think with so few differences between the sorts of things people in these professions do that there would be a lot of exchange of personnel between the two, whereas this is not the case. Why is that? The answer lies partly in historic gender roles associated with the two jobs that no longer apply (women became school teachers, men university lecturers). But today, the qualifications required to go into each profession are very different, meaning that, essentially, a school teacher would have to start training from the beginning to become a lecturer and _vice versa_. 
> As has been explored in many articles on this website, to become a lecturer at university you require a PhD and teaching experience gained while taking that qualification. Going into school teaching is very different. Rarely do schoolteachers stay on at university themselves and do a PhD; they are more likely to do a first, undergraduate degree and then pursue a teaching qualification such as a PGCE. Increasingly teachers are acquiring masters in their field of interest in order to supplement their own knowledge and to make themselves more employable. If you wish to become a schoolteacher after going down the academic route, the state education system will not recognise your PhD as a substitute for a teacher training qualification. It may be possible to enter teaching on a Graduate Teaching Scheme or a Teach First scheme, but if you wished to stay in the profession eventually you would need to do a year's teacher training qualification from scratch. Equally school teaching qualifications and experience, while counting for something when going into academic life, will not be seen as commensurate to a PhD and expertise in the university lecture room. The private school system is slightly different, although most do now require you to have the same teacher training qualifications as state schools. You would need to contact a private school directly to see what their policy is. If moving from school teaching to lecturing, the first step is to register for a PhD programme in your chosen field. You will be able to gain teaching experience at Higher Education level while working towards this qualification. 
> So, the large amount of time and money needed to swap between the two careers by acquiring other qualifications is the main reason why so few people make that change. Therefore make sure you are really committed to changing your teaching role before you do so. You have to be prepared for a lot of studying and hard work before your career dreams are realised. And of course there is no guarantee of a job at the end of your training either, although it appears that in the current employment climate teachers in schools have a slightly easier time getting secure, long-term work that teachers at university level. However, moving between these two careers is not impossible and a love of teaching and learning and self-development is vital to both. It is important also to be able to show that you have an awareness of government initiatives, both to improve your teaching practice and to perform well in interviews when looking for work.

----------


## Topper

> Matter settled. AA has anointed me.


All hail the King!!!!!  May the King live long and prosper and all that shit!  :Smile:

----------


## Topper

Smeg, 

Once again, the difference between you and real teachers is we don't need to quote internet sources...we can discuss issues based on our experience. 

Can you?

----------


## Smeg

> So, where have you taught? Or is it another sensitive area?


Give me one good reason why I should provide details on my career history to a complete stranger on the internet who seems intent on finding out such things rather than discussing the OP.

----------


## MisterStretch

> You seem very touchy about this. Did they or did they not have to undergo formal teacher training? It's pretty simple.


Ah, so your little-minded contention is that a professional journalist can't teach someone else how to be a professional journalist unless they've taken education and teaching courses.

How small-minded.  Sounds like someone trying to justify their own measly qualifications that doesn't have professional experience in their field.

Kind of like someone who is 'qualified' to teach science but has no aptitude for it, has never conducted an experiment outside of the teaching classroom, has never gone on a research or field trip in their specialty or has no other qualifications other than the fact that they have a teaching degree in science.

Doesn't make you scientist, does it?

When I completed my degree one of the professors in my minor warned me about going on immediately to a masters and then a PhD.  "In 10 years, go for your masters...get some real world experience first."

He was right.  I've seen too many professors that only had academic credentials.  Perhaps some of them could have used some education courses, but many of them already had them.  What they needed was to learn about how the real world in their field worked, hence the idiot who didn't recieve tenure after I testified at his hearing.  As a junior in college I already had more professional experience in our field than he did...I started at a very young age.

----------


## jandajoy

> ive me one good reason why I should provide details on my career history


To qualify your statements and establish your authority to comment.

----------


## Smeg

> Smeg, 
> 
> Once again, the difference between you and real teachers is we don't need to quote internet sources...we can discuss issues based on our experience. 
> 
> Can you?


So get on with it then! Lets hear your views on the OP. Becuase all I see at the moment is a trolling little shit intent on belittling me.

----------


## jandajoy

Why are you so foul mouthed and abusive?
Ironic in a thread on education.

----------


## Smeg

> Originally Posted by Smeg
> 
> ive me one good reason why I should provide details on my career history
> 
> 
> To qualify your statements and establish your authority to comment.


What a bag of crap. 

Right, off you go and ask everyone who posts on any thread on the entire forum to provide details of where they have worked which is related to the OP, whatever the subject may be, or otherwise they have to get off the thread. Good luck.

----------


## jandajoy

It's interesting the way you react to questions and requests for clarification. Others here have happily described their experience, qualifications and so on. 

You refuse. Simply curse and abuse.

Don't you see how that weakens your position and the strength of your views?

----------


## Smeg

^ So you are entitled to tell me what I must talk about? FUCK OFF!

What a shame that people can't simply discuss the OP without sniping. CSFFan and Jandajoy, your clear intent is to turn this into a personal flame war. You are not discussing the topic whatsoever, and want to focus the thread on attacking and belittling people who do. Please grow up.

----------


## Camel Toe

> I have never taught in Thailand because I have the intelligence to see what a joke doing so is.


And you also had the intelligence not to buzz into Bruce's lil web.  Thailand is a shit place to work, at least in my experience down south.  Good and qualified teachers do come here though.  

Unless they marry a Thai bird, collect and study spiders, snakes and bats, have a passion for beating off touts while sunbathing or sightseeing, like teaching a class-full of boys who have never heard the word _no_, they shouldn't stay too long, unless they like living in societies where it's not only good to be mediocre, it's best to be mediocre.

IMO

----------


## Topper

> Becuase all I see at the moment is a trolling little shit intent on belittling me


And I've asked, as others, what experience you're basing your opinions on.  Never really got that one answered, but as I'm actually a teacher posting in a teaching thread about teaching related issues with other teachers (you being the exception), I'm a troll?

----------


## MisterStretch

> Right, off you go and ask everyone who posts on this thread to provide details of where they have worked which is related to the OP, or otherwise they have to get off the thread. Good luck.


Belly up to the bar.  I'm ready.

Are you?




> Thailand is a shit place to work, at least in my experience down south


I worked in the South, have friends that worked there for many years before me, have friends that are still working there...only a shit place to work for shit teachers, like everywhere else.

----------


## good2bhappy

> ^ So you are entitled to tell me what I must talk about? FUCK OFF!
> 
> What a shame that people can't simply discuss the OP without sniping. CSFFan and Jandajoy, your clear intent is to turn this into a personal flame war. You are not discussing the topic whatsoever, and want to focus the thread on attacking and belittling people who do. Please grow up.


Paranoid!

----------


## jandajoy

> ^ So you are entitled to tell me what I must talk about? FUCK OFF!
> 
> What a shame that people can't simply discuss the OP without sniping. CSFFan and Jandajoy, your clear intent is to turn this into a personal flame war. You are not discussing the topic whatsoever, and want to focus the thread on attacking and belittling people who do. Please grow up.


 

Read what I wrote. I didn't suggest that I was "entitled" to tell you what you must talk about"

Your abusive language lets you down.

The OP  =  "Whats a qualified teacher?" 
(I've left off the missing) apostrophe.

Various "qualified teachers" have contributed  interesting and thought provoking comments, observations and ideas. What makes them stand out, and validates their contributions is the fact that they have qualified their positions. They have described their backgrounds and experience.

You, to date have failed to do that and resort to childish abuse.

It's a shame. If you demonstrated some veracity people might listen.

----------


## Smeg

> And I've asked, as others, what experience you're basing your opinions on. Never really got that one answered, but as I'm actually a teacher posting in a teaching thread about teaching related issues with other teachers (you being the exception), I'm a troll?


Why not meet up with them, stand in a little circle, and play with each other's genitals then?

I didn't realise that one actually has to be one of those unfortunate enough to be currently teaching in Thailand to be allowed to join in a thread to discuss "what is a qualified teacher?", and those that aren't will be harrassed by those that are. 

Anyway, I hope this sniping at me is helping you to feel important, as a person whose chosen work fails to provide any other routes to self-esteem.

----------


## Smeg

> Various "qualified teachers" have contributed interesting and thought provoking comments, observations and ideas. What makes them stand out, and validates their contributions is the fact that they have qualified their positions. They have described their backgrounds and experience.
> 
> You, to date have failed to do that and resort to childish abuse.
> 
> It's a shame. If you demonstrated some veracity people might listen.


I have "failed" to respond to your arrogant demands. That is all.

I love the way you think you can speak for the "people". Arrogant sack. 

If you only want those willing to provide personal career details to be allowed to contribute, I suggest you ask DD to delete posts from those who don't. Good luck with that. Meanwhile, I'll get back on topic.

----------


## jandajoy

OK, I'm bored now. You're a waste of time and not amusing. 
Good night.

----------


## MisterStretch

> Quote: Originally Posted by CSFFan View Post And I've asked, as others, what experience you're basing your opinions on. Never really got that one answered, but as I'm actually a teacher posting in a teaching thread about teaching related issues with other teachers (you being the exception), I'm a troll?





> I didn't realise that one actually has to be one of those unfortunate enough to be currently teaching in Thailand to be allowed to join in a thread to discuss "what is a qualified teacher?", and those that aren't will be harrassed by those that are.


I'm NOT teaching in Thailand Smeg, you might have noticed that I've also taught in several countries in addition to Thailand, and you still haven't answered the questions about your qualifications to bludgeon the rest of us with your opinion.  You've only copied and pasted something from Wiki, which only shows us that you can copy and paste, not that you hold any qualifications or experience in the field that you are advancing yourself as an expert in.




> I hope this sniping at me is helping you to feel important, as a person whose chosen work fails to provide any other routes to self-esteem.


The only person seeming to seek self-importance in this thread is you, Smeg.  I don't know you from Adam, but so far you have been a foul-mouthed, without-reason condesceding jerk.  You have provided none of the people that have contributed reasonable, thoughtful comments on this thread and who have asked you your own qualifications to justify your vitriolic spew as anything other than mouth-breathing drool.

As I said before, belly up to the bar.  I'll match CV's.

----------


## Topper

> Meanwhile, I'll get back on topic.


Ah...when were you going to do that again????

Thanks Smeg for bringing a smile to my face...haven't had this much fun since Whitey was around doing his best to look like a shit for brains.  Got to admit, its a neck and neck race between you and Whitey.

----------


## Smeg

> I'm NOT teaching in Thailand Smeg, you might have noticed that I've also taught in several countries in addition to Thailand, and you still haven't answered the questions about your qualifications to bludgeon the rest of us with your opinion. You've only copied and pasted something from Wiki, which only shows us that you can copy and paste, not that you hold any qualifications or experience in the field that you are advancing yourself as an expert in.


What a pompous old windbag! "advancing yourself as an expert in" !! WTF!?!? This is a discussion forum, not the "World Seminar on Teaching Expertise and Showing Whose Dick is Biggest 2008" 

And you clearly can't even read, as I have already stated my quals, in post 168. 




> who have asked you your own qualifications to justify your vitriolic spew as anything other than mouth-breathing drool.
> 
> As I said before, belly up to the bar. I'll match CV's.


You are joking, right? I'll say it again for those with wooden brains. I didn't see the thread rules that stated that only those stating their work experience details are allowed to open the thread. By all means, PLEASE ignore my posts if you so wish. But to try to tell me that I'm only allowed to post if I fulfil pre-set conditions set down by you (as if you make up the rules around here) is mind-bogglingly odd. 

Perhaps you types are so used to forcing yourself to be a dominant presence in the classroom, because it is so unnatural to you as forced teachers who do it only to live in pussyland or wherever, that you can't switch off here, and think you still call the shots. Forget it, it won't happen here.

----------


## Smeg

I'll get back to my first post now, after that pointless 2.5 page rant from the "we make up the rules around here" brigade. Bruce?




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bruceveld*  
> _I spent 13 years of my life studying general subject matter with "qualified" teachers. Then I went to university and all of my teachers were apparently "unqualified" because they had never studied Education, just specialized in their field of study. That went on for the rest of my education, right through my MBA (which,according to some websites, I really do not have lol). Some of these teachers were horrible in the classroom. But they were experts in their field of study. They could have REALLY sued some teacher training, though._
> 
> Originally Posted by* Smeg* University lecturers are not teachers! Studying at university should be almost entirely self-motivated and self-led. Hence they do not require teacher training in the same way that a primary school teacher would. Strewth, isn't that obvious Bruce?
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bruceveld*  
> ...

----------


## jandajoy

Whats a qualified... 08-09-2008 08:00 PM Smeg Get a life!
So this is your preferred option having given up on abuse?
How sad.

Believe it or not Smeg, my child, I have quite a good life. 

I'm reasonably, happy and content. I shall marry soon and not having to work means I can spend my time doing what I like. 

And "yes" that includes watching sad little individuals like you thrashing away with their absurd little frenzies, painting themselves into corners and refusing to give in.  

I do hope you get better and find some calm in your life.   :Sad:

----------


## Accidental Ajarn

WTF is Smeg going on about? Is he more or less whacked?

----------


## MisterStretch

> What a pompous old windbag! "advancing yourself as an expert in" !! WTF!?!? This is a discussion forum, not the "World Seminar on Teaching Expertise and Showing Whose Dick is Biggest 2008"


Then why do you keep waving your weenie in the air? Why do you keep touting your 'credentials'?  Tiny dick waving at its finest.



> You are joking, right? I didn't see the thread rules that stated that only those stating their work experience details are allowed to open the thread.


You didn't open the thread, but have spent a lot of time questioning the qualifications of others to contribute to it. You questioned why anyone would have to justify their experience when questioned about yours, yet you have touted yours as the basis for your arguments.  Throw it out there, baby.  Lay the foundation so that we can all kneel at the altar of your superior qualifications and experience as you vilify all of us.



> By all means, PLEASE ignore my posts if you so wish.


If they weren't so friggin' numerous and peppered with self-inflated idiocies I might be able to.  Don't you have a home...or do you just have a box around your computer so that you can post in order to have the fascimile of a home?  Might damned prolific...you'd be a hell of a lot easier to ignore if you reigned in your flaming attacks on people that don't agree with you.



> Perhaps you types are so used to forcing yourself to be a dominant presence


Something you do on this board and the other one that got so tired of your shit-slinging they banned you, eh? Why not stop forcing yourself on the rest of us...you'd be happier, wouldn't you? Admit it.



> it is so unnatural to you as forced teachers who do it only to live in pussyland or wherever


Well, Korea can be called a lot of things, but pussyland for a mature adult isn't one of them.



> think you still call the shots. Forget it, it won't happen here.


Ah, so you're king of the shit heap eh? And you call the shots?

You are nothing other than a small-minded peasant that has nothing intelligent to offer.  You only flame, throw accusations around, back up nothing that you say about yourself and when questioned just resort to more flames, ugliness and distractions.

What a moronic, childish personality.  You're boring.  I'm going to have some kimchi and soju...much more interesting than you are...and perhaps always will be unless you crawl out of your self-reflecting mirror-bubble that shows you king of the universe.

Yours is a small universe.

----------


## Topper

> WTF is Smeg going on about? Is he more or less whacked?


I think most opinion polls have agreed that "more wacked" is the best description.

----------


## Smeg

> You have spent a lot of time questioning the qualifications of others to contribute to it.


I have no idea whatsoever what you are going on about.



> Something you do on this board and the other one that got so tired of your shit-slinging they banned you, eh? Why not stop forcing yourself on the rest of us...you'd be happier, wouldn't you? Admit it.


Oh, I see, so after nearly three years you've followed me over from cretinforum.net to allow me to force myself on you again! How kind of you! Why not head back there? Is it boring these days? Off you go, you'll be far happier.




> You are nothing other than a small-minded peasant that has nothing intelligent to offer. You only flame, throw accusations around, back up nothing that you say about yourself and when questioned just resort to more flames, ugliness and distractions.
> 
> What a moronic, childish personality. You're boring.


Wow, because I responded to Bruce's OP with my opinions and didn't bow down to a handful of jokers subsequent demands for personal information about me? Scary. Sorry for not entertaining you and living up to your huge intellectual expectations  :Sad: 



Bruce?

----------


## Camel Toe

> I worked in the South, have friends that worked there for many years before me, have friends that are still working there...only a shit place to work for shit teachers, like everywhere else.


So Songkhla is the South?  No bro, it starts at Chumporn and ends at the Malay frontier.  I have worked at all the best schools in this city and three more cities and I'm in my 27th year and still at it.  

They were all shit gigs.  A shit teachers stays at shit gigs, I don't.  What made them shit in most cases were the farang who taught there, they were shit, except for a few of course.  

It's The Peter Principle, bro, in action!  

Never had a complaint with Ss, not many with Thais, except the usual classics.

The places were full of (excuse the insider stuff) Xtrafreshes, fencesitters, and farangraktais.

----------


## hillbilly

> A qualified teacher is one who kids learn from in a positive way.


Probably the truest statement thus far. I believe that we all have been taught by people who were not really certified teachers.

----------


## good2bhappy

I don't know about certified teachers but I certainly know a few certifiable ones.

----------


## bruceveld

> Originally Posted by bruceveld
> 
> If "we" fail to know aspects of the language necessary for language learners EVERY CHILD BORN in the US, UK, etc. would be unable to speak English. Laughable when you think about it....
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, but does idiocy just spew from your mouth and fingers when you wish to communicate? This is as stupid as your OP.
> 
> As you, poorly, pointed out we native speakers don't have to know the intricacies of grammar in order to speak the language correctly. We also don't need to know those same intricacies, nor how to impart them to a second or third party in order to teach language to a child.
> 
> ...


The thing that baffles me in your reply is that I completely agree with you.  You spend 500 words makingthe point I tried to make.  Despite the fact that many native speakers cannot explain how we use the language and what grammar "rules" we are following, we manage to teach it to each other, generation by generation, quite competently.

I guess my initial post was not clear.  I agree with you 100 percent.

But good to know you are laughing at me.  Laughing at me.  lol

----------


## bruceveld

> come back, bruce. don't be embarrassed. we all have our ass handed to us on occasion.


lol but the really FUNNY part is the guy handed me my ass and spent 600 words AGREEING with me.

But I loved the emphasis on laughing.

He who laughs last...  and I am LITERALLY LMAO now...

----------


## bruceveld

Smeg, sorry to have been away. I have a very busy life outside of forums + its football season, parents are in town, etc.

I am not sure what you want me to answer. You feel that teachers need no training if they are university lecturers because the students are motivated. So we can just have completely untrained teachers as long as the students re motivated? I guess we have to agree to disagree there.

We say our course is a learners permit to teach. I believe it is an accurate assessment. Once you have completed our course (and most of the others I presume) you are a confident and competent teacher. The worlds best? No. But good enough to teach reasonable classes and, as one gains expereince and reflects upon their teaching and their students progress, improve and learn more as a teacher.

You disagree.  Fair enough.

PS:  Four week courses were created by International House.

----------


## puppy

Being a teacher is a bit like being a musician - you can either do it or you can't.

Having a degree means nothing and should be wiped off the Teachers Licence requirements.

The most important thing is experience, but if the Ministry of Education had one brain cell between them and wanted teachers with qualifications, they should require all teachers to undergo the maximum length TEFL or CELTA training course - this would irradicate the pond-life element that settle in Thailand, as these courses are expensive.

Although experience is essential, I think all teachers should take a TEFL or CELTA at the beginning of their careers, as this increasses customer confidence in them and is a good selling point - ie - you know you're a good teacher and your students will realise you're a good teacher shortly after you start teaching them, but most will be put off hiring you if they don't see a teaching qualification.

----------


## puppy

Whoops! Before anyone picks on my terrible spelling of the word "increases", I was typing in a hurry. So let me be the first to criticise myself!!

----------


## nidhogg

> . You feel that teachers need no training if they are university lecturers because the students are motivated.


Teachers teach.  Lecturers lecture.  Different kettle of fish.  And interestingly of course, Professors do profess.

----------


## kingwilly

> Having a degree means nothing and should be wiped off the Teachers Licence requirements.


A slightly broad brush there.




> Being a teacher is a bit like being a musician - you can either do it or you can't.


Uhha. I agree that some people are more predisposed to becoming good teachers than others, but it is silly to suggest that someone could just rock up to a class, no training or experience and 'wing' it. 

The bottom line is that teachers need to be taught how to teach. some might pick it up better than others, but it is by no means an innate talent.

----------


## MisterStretch

> He who laughs last... and I am LITERALLY LMAO now...


That's two of us.

The big difference between us teaching our offspring English and doing it in a classroom is huge, I think you'd agree.

Kids learning from parents are essentially empty slates and everything they learn is in context.  Working in the classroom is a much different thing.

Often we are at odds with the language rules they are learning in their mother tongue, in addition to the fact that contextual teaching is much more difficult with a classroom full of students, rather than just a kid and his parents.

I wish it could be the same way, but it isn't, hence the need to learn methodology and teaching techniques.  Some people have this talent without needing a great deal of training. Others need to be taught how to teach. 

I can't think of any teacher that can't benefit from some effective training.

----------


## Camel Toe

> Being a teacher is a bit like being a musician - you can either do it or you can't.


Being both teacher and musician I can see no correlation at all, not even a "bit."

You are accepted as a musician because the others in the band think you can play.  The band is excepted by the public; either they are revered or they are not, or they are mediocre.  They could be a perfectly together group but play to loud, or not loud enough, and get the axe from the employer.  In other words, no matter what you play, how you play it, or what costumes you wear, somebody is going to love you, somebody is going to hate you.  

A musician doesn't get a gig via email, a farang teacher can.  A musician wanting to join a group has to show up to a rehearsal and show what he's got.  A teacher can get a job by emailing paper credentials and a recent photo.  The credentials are, more often than not, never verified (in LoS anyway).

A teacher can go on being shit at his job and still remain with it for quite a long time (in LoS anyway), a musician can't.

----------


## Smeg

> Smeg, sorry to have been away. I have a very busy life outside of forums + its football season, parents are in town, etc.
> 
> I am not sure what you want me to answer. You feel that teachers need no training if they are university lecturers because the students are motivated. So we can just have completely untrained teachers as long as the students re motivated? I guess we have to agree to disagree there.
> 
> We say our course is a learners permit to teach. I believe it is an accurate assessment. Once you have completed our course (and most of the others I presume) you are a confident and competent teacher. The worlds best? No. But good enough to teach reasonable classes and, as one gains expereince and reflects upon their teaching and their students progress, improve and learn more as a teacher.
> 
> You disagree. Fair enough.
> 
> PS: Four week courses were created by International House.


Some questions
1) If TEFL paid twice as much in every country worldwide, do you think that TEFL courses would probably be longer and better?
2) What percentage of native speakers on the planet do you think could become a "confident and competent" teacher? 
3) What percentage of your course applicants do you reject via pre-course tests? 
4) What percentage of attendees do you fail? 
5) Could almost any native speaker become a "confident and competent" teacher in 4 weeks?

----------


## DrAndy

Bruce said that 


> Smeg, you feel that teachers need no training if they are university lecturers because the students are motivated. So we can just have completely untrained teachers as long as the students re motivated? I guess we have to agree to disagree there.


I am not sure why teachers and university lecturers are being compared

At a Uni, the lecturers are allowed to be crap teachers; the students do not have to attend the lectures, but they are expected to read up the subject from all of the sources. So I suppose that Smeg has a point wrt unis

I am sure, however, that schools do not allow their teachers/students to behave in that way

----------


## bruceveld

> Bruce said that 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				 Smeg, you feel that teachers need no training if they are university lecturers because the students are motivated. So we can just have completely untrained teachers as long as the students re motivated? I guess we have to agree to disagree there.
> 			
> 		
> 
> ...


 
It seems odd to me that we suddenly accept teachers with no training whatsoever once we reach university. before that they are required (in the West) to have a great deal of training in EDUCATION. Suddenly it no longer becomes important.

Or perhaps it is because these people are extremely knowledgable in their field....

----------


## bruceveld

> Some questions
> 1) If TEFL paid twice as much in every country worldwide, do you think that TEFL courses would probably be longer and better?


I doubt it. It seems to me there is already a wide range of TT programs, from inexpensive to expensive.




> 2) What percentage of native speakers on the planet do you think could become a "confident and competent" teacher?


It would just be a guess bt I would say... 70 percent of all those who are capable of doing university-level coursework.





> 3) What percentage of your course applicants do you reject via pre-course tests?


Not many native speakers. Less than 10 percent.




> 4) What percentage of attendees do you fail?


Five percent




> 5) Could almost any native speaker become a "confident and competent" teacher in 4 weeks?


I see few that could not do it if they tried. Most of our failures/drop outs just realize they do not want to do it or can't be bothered (too much time at the pub every evening?) to do the work required.

Virtually anyone who tries (excluding those with some abnormal fear of speaking in front of groups) can successfully pass. Its VOCATIONALTRAINING!

----------


## MisterStretch

> Its VOCATIONALTRAINING!


That's it in a nutshell.  It's training to do a specific job.

If you do it well, it is a foundation and only a foundation in which to walk into a job and do it to it's minimal acceptable levels.  Many people, unfortunately, don't grow beyond that.

Luckily, there are lots of people who do, as well, and these people grow into teachers, qualified and experienced.




> 1) If TEFL paid twice as much in every country worldwide, do you think that TEFL courses would probably be longer and better?


I don't think so.  The salary offered in different countries has no bearing on the length of courses. Take Saudi Arabia, for instance, it pays more than twice what is paid in Thailand and a 4-week course is a minimum requirement.  A good 4-week course with a minimum of 120+ hours plus observed teaching practice is very intensive and covers a multitude of issues, theory and practicum.  Lengthening the courses wouldn't add a great deal of effectiveness, IMO for a beginning TEFL teacher.



> 2) What percentage of native speakers on the planet do you think could become a "confident and competent" teacher?


Less than the percentage of people who could become 'confident and competent' nuclear physicists, for sure.  It requires a certain personality and intelligence level (as all professions do).  Estimating a percentage would just be like shooting in the dark.  There's no empirical evidence that I'm aware of to back up any such guess.



> 3) What percentage of your course applicants do you reject via pre-course tests?


When I was a trainer, we didn't have pre-course tests. (I didn't work for Bruce's organization.) Applicants provided personal and educational details and when I took over I also instituted an essay to assess language knowledge and usage.  Based on these I probably disqualified about 5%.  


> 4) What percentage of attendees do you fail?


As I stated in an earlier post, I also failed 10% of the people who completed the four weeks as I didn't feel that they met minimum requirements.



> 5) Could almost any native speaker become a "confident and competent" teacher in 4 weeks?


In my opinion, no.  It takes a certain aptitude, the ability to get in front of a group, the ability to speak clearly, the ability to adapt, the ability to organize and plan, the ability to get along well with sudents and teachers, the ability to be able live and adjust to a new culture, the ability to follow through...not everyone has these abilities.  Of those that do, most could be competent and effective TEFL teachers if they chose and were trained properly.

----------


## Mister Fixit

> ^
> How pathetic would one’s life have to be to spend it searching various internet forums looking for spelling and grammar mistakes to point out? Fuck, get a life dude, put your red pen down, no one is paying you to be little Johnny grammar teacher here.


And how pathetic would another's life have to be to contually mis-read and misconstrue other's posts?

Where on EARTH did you get the idea that I 'search various internet forums' to point out errors? Something you've just made up?

Mate, if you had more than a passing acquaintance with your brain cells, you'd have worked out what was being said, as everyone else seemed to do without being told. 

That is, that Bruce pontificates about being so good at everything with his massive, (but undisclosed) of-the-charts IQ but writes and spells like an 8 year old. He might try to say that they were typos, but I don't believe him, just as I believe very little of what he says anywhere. They were downright spelling mistakes and he's an ace bullshitter which seems to be about his only talent, apart from self-justification. 

Sadly, people like you DO seem to believe him, or are so dopey you can't see it.  I suspect the latter.

I wasn't trying to correct him for the sake of correcting him, but to point out his bullshit with which he continually deludes himself - and you, it seems.

----------


## Doggsy

> he's an ace bullshitter which seems to be about his only talent, apart from self-justification.


Amen to that. 

Not everybody that does a course at TEFL Intl leave a happy person.

I couldn't be arsed to read all 12 pages, got bored after about 4 so skipped to the end but to answer the topic title, in England trainee teacher also have to complete, with evidence, 33 teaching standards that increase by another 12 in their first year of teaching. 

The standards include things like being able to pitch a lesson at the different abilities in the class, looking smart and professional, the ability to turn up on time. 

Q2 Demonstrate the positive values, attitudes and behaviour they expect from children and young people.

Q4Communicate effectively with children, young people, colleagues, parents and carers.

With a large amount of TEFL people staying in Thailand just for the night life scene then even with teaching experience unless they can offer the extras then are they a qualified teacher?

However there are obviously people that take tefling seriously and probably fulfil the majority of the standards expected of teachers in the uk but i believe it is far less than the number of people that Bruce passes on his course.

----------


## stevejackson

Qualified teacher is a person who have a degree with good ability to teach.

----------


## jandajoy

> Qualified teacher is a person who have a degree with good ability to teach.


Bollox.

----------


## MisterStretch

> Qualified teacher is a person who have a degree with good ability to teach.


Qualified would also require that he/she could write a competent sentence, unlike the one above.

I agree with janda...bollocks to your statement.

----------


## mikehunt

> Qualified teacher is a person who have a degree with good ability to teach.


I too disagree with this statement.

I believe that the most important qualification a teacher must have is that of relationship building, closely followed by the technical knowledge of the subject being taught.
Without forming "relationships" with both your peers & your students, you might as well try to communicate with a brick wall.

I also believe that a teacher should be able to impart enthusiasm for a subject. Teaching & learning are not only "jobs", they are life experiences & are better to be enjoyed.

Three degrees & no personality makes a woeful teacher. No degrees, some technical knowledge & the all important ability to build relationships can make for a wonderful teacher.

I mustn't forget to include that a good teacher is also a good student...always willing to learn. Hopefully, if the teacher has done a good job, the student can teach the teacher...& the teacher will therefore be "repaid" in kind.

----------


## jandajoy

Are you a teacher mikehunt?  ^

----------


## nidhogg

> Are you a teacher mikehunt? ^


or more pertinently, a non-degreed teacher.

----------


## jandajoy

:Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile:

----------


## mikehunt

> Are you a teacher mikehunt?  ^


I sure am.  :Smile: 

No, I don't hold a degree but I love my job. I don't even have a TEFL certificate.

----------


## jandajoy

So what exactly, qualifies you to perform this role?

----------


## mikehunt

> So what exactly, qualifies you to perform this role?


The M.O.E. have accepted my "trade certificate" & as such, I am "legal" (I have a work permit).

I have an excellent relationship with most of my students...they see me as an "equal" but never abuse this situation.

I have an excellent relationship with my peers. This relationship is based upon simple respect, honesty & trust. Plus, I can take any criticism that comes my way. 

The test results of my students have proven that they actually learn something from me. Mind you, not every student passes.

I have always been more than "good" at English.

The current situation at my place of work is interesting.
A foreign teacher (from Europe) has recently started working here but his English skills are not very good. He does hold a degree but I'm not sure what it is. He also treats the students like children (I teach people who have finished Matyom. The students are generally over the age of eighteen). He rebukes any criticism from the Thai teachers even though the Thai teachers are correct.
Although he spends an inordinate amount of time learning the Thai language & donating food to Wats (temples), many Thai teachers dislike him. He simply has very little ability to relate to people, especially to the students.
I get the impression he is trying to impress people but it's not working.
Little does he know that he will be fired in two days time.
If only he could try to "connect" with his students & peers as well as take constructive criticism, he would be ok. Of course, it would also pay him to be a student of English for a little while too.

Some may think that this is all about "arse licking". It is not! I do not "lick arses". If needed, I stand my ground until an agreement has been reached. Mind you, none of this could happen if I wasn't a "people person".

BTW, my prior jobs in the western world were all of a technical nature. I was even employed as an engineer for many years although I do not hold a degree in engineering.

----------


## jandajoy

How sweet.  :Smile:

----------


## jandajoy

> I have an excellent relationship with most of my students...they see me as an "equal" but never abuse this situation.


Oh Dear.  :Smile:

----------


## Rural Surin

> i think some of the curent threads have, in my opinion, some very poor analogies about teaching and qualifications.
> 
> I spent 13 years of my life studying general subject matter with "qualified" teachers. Then I went to university and all of my teachers were apparently "unqualified" because they had never studied Education, just specialized in their field of study. That went on for the rest of my education, right through my MBA (which,according to some websites, I really do not have lol). Some of these teachers were horrible in the classroom. But they were experts in their field of study. They could have REALLY sued some teacher training, though.
> 
> Now, lets take a look at the poor TEFLers you guys like to disparrage so often.
> 
> All of us natie speakers are experts at the English language. Our usage level is Native and completely fluent. And if we have any kind of decent education we should be able to spell and string together a sentence or two. Believe it or not, we are experts in English language compared to the rest of the world.
> 
> Now, can we teach? Teaching language is quite different than teaching other subjects. Good teachers get a great deal of student participation. If you get some training, even as little as four weeks, will give many some basic skills that can make them successful English teachers. Will four weeks be ALL we need? Of ocurse not. Thats just a drivers permit to teaching english. All good teachers learn through their expereinces how to continually improve their teaching techniques and, obviously, more training is better than less training.
> ...


Formal education and training does not guarantee anything....yes?

----------

