#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Thailand and Asia News >  >  > World News >  >  Airline News

## klongmaster

There seems a fair smattering of aviation types here on TD, so I thought it would be useful to have a thread where various events related to the airline industry could be posted. (Mods: if this is not the right place please feel free to move the thread).

First off this from Stuff NZ today 



> *German airline Lufthansa says its pilots averted a crash at Hamburg airport after a strong gust of wind caused a plane, with 130 passengers on board, to veer dangerously on landing.
> 
> *Amateur video footage, played repeatedly on German television, showed the Airbus A320 buffeted by crosswinds and driving rain as it landed on Saturday at Fuhlsbuettel airport near the northern German port city.
>  Winds were reported to have reached 250km an hour.
>  The plane approached the asphalt runway at an odd angle, then swerved sharply before touching down, with one of its wings scraping the ground. The pilots averted disaster by quickly taking off again, going into a so-called go-around manoeuvre.
>  "Just before landing, the plane was hit by a very strong gust of wind that led to the left wing touching the ground very briefly," said Juergen Raps, Lufthansa executive vice president of operations.
>  "The pilots reacted outstandingly by inducing a go-around."
>  No passengers or crew were injured and the plane, which had taken off from Munich, circled for about 10 minutes before landing safely on another runway.


Outstanding Video is here 404 Not Found

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## Thai Pom

Klongmaster, I think it is a real good idea. Lets work out where the Mods decide to stick it.  BTW I do not know if you have seen this website.  Professional Pilots Rumour Network  PPRuNe Forums - Professional Pilots Rumour Network . This a serious (well 95%) website. Cheers TP

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## klongmaster

Also from NZ: last years top pic featuring an Air New Zealand commuter plane on emergency landing caused by the landing gear failing to lock in place. No one was injured in this landing.

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## obsidian

curious if you settled on a price for your article, klongmaster?

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## klongmaster

^Obs: I sent them a price and never heard any more. Must have been more than they wanted to pay!

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## dirtydog

YouTube - Lufthansa A320 Plane Escapes Disaster in 150mph Winds

Mar. 1 - A Lufthansa plane escapes disaster during a landing attempt in stormy weather. The flight had more than 130 passengers on board when it was pummelled by crosswinds when trying to touch down at Hamburg's Fuhlsbuettel airport. The pilot scraped the Airbus A320's wing on the runway but averted disaster by aborting the landing and taking off again.

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## Texpat

I always have mixed feelings when reading about how a pilot averted "disaster."
Especially when weather is involved. In almost every case, a small voice inside my head says the pilot shouldn't have been there in the first place.

I know weather can form almost instantly, and in those cases, good on the pilot. Safety of the passengers is the MAIN duty of any commercial pilot -- even more important than getting passengers to their destination.

No pilot in his right mind would try landing in 150 mph winds unless he was bingo.

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## klongmaster

DD: How do you embed the video onto the page and can it only be done with youtube?

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## Khun Custard

Well, by what the video shows.....I'll add Lufthanza to Garuda, China Eastern and a few others who I will  not fly with on my perception of the calibre of the pilots.

What kind of Flight Deck SOP's exist with this company??  

I should have gone around at least 1km out by the bucketing it was recieving.
Wind socks don't tell lies!!

"The pilot reacted astondingly"..... LATE!!!

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## dirtydog

You can now post videos on the following forums.
*Thailand and Asia News Forum*
*Divers Tales*
*Jokes and funny stories*
*The Sports Forum*
*The Multimedia Forum
Issues Forum
*
To post them just copy and paste the url, no codes, no tags, just the url of the video, they can be done from any of the following video sites.


YouTube
Google
MySpace
MetaCafe
Yahoo
Koreus
Sapo
LiveLeak
GameTrailers
StreetFire
VEOH
MyVideo
GameSpot
Stage6
SevenLoad
Izlesene
Vidiac
Vidmax
Redtube
Onsmash
GodTube
PhotoBucket
BrightCove
YouKu
LiveVideoBreak
Expert Village

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## klongmaster

^OK. That appears to be exactly what I did in the op but it's not embedded...why is that?

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## dirtydog

We don't have that one enabled, with youtube you also have to make sure there are less than 5 hotlinked to it, ie under the vid it tells you how many links, so if it's hot news you have to keep looking for new vids and get in there quick  :Smile:

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## klongmaster

^okie...any chance of enabling stuff.co.nz as many of us read it and they have the news FIRST every day...

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## oldgit

How does the pilot dodge these birds?

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## dirtydog

> any chance of enabling stuff.co.nz as many of us read it


Huh, there is like 10 million kiwis in the world and 5 of them live in thailand....

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## MeMock

Try 4 million and 1 million of them live in Australia.

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## kingwilly

thanks, i'm flying tomorrow...  :Sad:

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## MeMock

Where you off to KW?

Here is a travelling present for you.

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## Thai Pom

Sat in the departure Lounge Hanoi off to HCMC. Cheers MeMock

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## MeMock

No worries TP.  :Smile: 

If it is any consolation that accident occurred back in 1977 and is still the deadliest crash in aviation history with 583 people dead.

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## Thai Pom

An interesting Flight....booked on VN. Flew a Air Inter Turkish A321.  Turkish Pilots and 2 Turkish Hosties guiding / supervising about 4 Vietnamese. Another Turkish "wet lease" in Asia...TP

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## klongmaster

^why do you think this is happening TP: no funds for their own planes or is the wet lease just a safer deal if the economy goes tits-up?..

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## klongmaster

> Huh, there is like 10 million kiwis in the world and 5 of them live in thailand....


95 families currently registered in bangkok alone DD...

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## El Gibbon

^ 95 'families' or couples.... ????  could all be the same family?

E. G. :cmn:

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## klongmaster

No EG: 95 different families...that just means that the count is not in individuals but by the number of families currently registered here...the point being that most kiwis living here come with their wives and children....most but not all obviously...

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## harrybarracuda

> It seems that the back handers are all going the Airbus way. Boeing is losing the war in the air because they do not have a viable product in the small aircraft market. Boeing 737-200/300/400/500/600/800, *remember the first 737 flew in the late seventies*. (Six new models in thirty odd years)
> Airbus on the other hand have the A318/A319/A320/A321/(all can be fitted with the new neo engine modification and all were rolled out within five years)


That would be the late sixties.

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## sabaii sabaii

Ebookers are halfway into their 48 hour sale if anyone's interested

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## thehighlander959

^^
My apologies Harry you are right was a slip of the finger, story of my life!!! :smiley laughing:

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## harrybarracuda

> Ebookers are halfway into their 48 hour sale if anyone's interested


Is this where they bang their prices up momentarily, then "slash" them for a couple of days?

 :Smile:

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## Sailing into trouble

Ryan Air have become well know for cut price air fares. Did you know that they offer Trans-Atlantic Service like no one else.

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## harrybarracuda

I like the guy's style.

 :rofl:

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## thehighlander959

Can say what you like about him he is a very shrewd operator. 
His Business model was Southwestern Airlines in the USA. He has now out southwesterned Southwestern Airlines.

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## jandajoy

*Tiger flights grounded until August*

 Updated 5 minutes ago 
  Tiger says it's confident issues raised  by CASA can be resolved in the coming weeks. (AFP: William West)

*Related  Story:* Grounded Tiger, 'complex' problems*Related  Story:* Tiger chief quits after CASA ban extension bid*Related  Story:* Tiger boss rejects safety risk claims*Related  Story:* Tiger grounded over 'serious' safety concerns

 Tiger Airways has been grounded until August, ending speculation  over whether the embattled budget airline would resume flights this weekend.
 The Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) applied to extend the one-week  grounding of the budget carrier while it continues its investigations into  safety concerns.
 CASA spokesman Peter Gibson said the safety regulator needed more time to  sift through concerns about the airline.
 The extension comes as safety investigators examine why a navigational  database used by Tiger contained the wrong information, causing one of its  planes to fly below safe altitude levels.
 Last month a Tiger Airbus 320 flew below air traffic control's lowest safe  descent altitude of 2,500 while approaching Melbourne airport.
 The pilots failed to notice the navigational mistake when they cross-checked  the navigation information with their paper version, but the plane managed to  land safely after Air Traffic Control corrected the pilots.
 A preliminary report into the Melbourne airport incident from the Australian  Transport Safety Bureau has found the error was due to an incorrect altitude in  the plane's commercial navigational database.
 A similar incident also happened with a second plane. 
 The bureau's chief commissioner, Martin Dolan, says the investigation will  look at Tiger's procedures in such a situation.
 "We're interested essentially in what are the procedures for assuring the  quality of that data for that navigation system; what checks and balances are in  place and whether they work against the possibility that some of the data may be  wrong, cross checking and various other things by those involved," he said.
 It was one of several incidents that prompted CASA to ground the airline for  a week.
 Tiger has been thrown into turmoil in recent days, with its chief executive  Crawford Rix last night announcing he would resign at the end of the month.
 His replacement, Tony Davis, is the group president of Tiger Airways Holdings  and the man who was sent from Singapore to lead the talks with CASA.
 West Australian newspapers aviation editor Geoffrey Thomas says Tiger Airways  insiders - especially pilots - are furious at the ban and management.
 "They said there's nothing wrong with the pilot team, it's just the  management and management can be changed very quickly, it just needs some  resources," he said.
 Tiger says it is moving to reassure its staff about the carrier's long-term  future. It says it is confident issues raised by CASA can be resolved in the  coming weeks.








http://abc.com.au/news/stories/2011/...section=justin

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## Sailing into trouble

Not knocking him, just wish I could afford Business class :Smile: 

Messed up with post quote. relates to Ryan Airs business class service.

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## harrybarracuda

Business class can be cheaper than you think. You just have to shop around.

Lots of airlines, when they have empty seats, will do deep discounts in the front cabins.

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## Tom Sawyer

Regarding Tiger Air grounding.

Whenever I see something like this (one country banning another country's airline that flies a highly competitive route) I wonder if the 'safety' claims are trumped up. Afterall, this isn't One-Two-Go, this is Singapore Airline's budget carrier.

The Sydney - SE Asia for stop-overs - and on to Europe routings are among the most competitive in the world.

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## aging one

> Singapore Airline's budget carrier.


Are you sure that it is not Silk Air thats the budget airline of SQ?

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## Tom Sawyer

> Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer
> 
> Singapore Airline's budget carrier.
> 
> 
> Are you sure that it is not Silk Air thats the budget airline of SQ?


They both are owned by SQ (at least in part for Tiger Air). BBC this morning also said Temasuk (Singapore's state-owned investment corporation) was part owner. See this link about Tiger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Airways

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## Sailing into trouble

> Business class can be cheaper than you think. You just have to shop around.
> 
> Lots of airlines, when they have empty seats, will do deep discounts in the front cabins.


I didn't know that! How do you get that info? Just phone the airlines?

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## aging one

cool thanks, didnt know that. Who was Thai going to tie up with for a budget carrier then abandoned the plan?

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## BaitongBoy

> I didn't know that! How do you get that info? Just phone the airlines?


Harry?...

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## sabaii sabaii

> Lots of airlines, when they have empty seats, will do deep discounts in the front cabins.


What a lot of these airlines do is, when the flight's economy section is full, they will upgrade the Gold card members to business class and sell their economy seat on

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## Tom Sawyer

> cool thanks, didnt know that. Who was Thai going to tie up with for a budget carrier then abandoned the plan?


I think it was Nok Air. Possibly wholly-owned by Thai. Not sure whether they're even still flying.

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## Tom Sawyer

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> Lots of airlines, when they have empty seats, will do deep discounts in the front cabins.
> 
> 
> What a lot of these airlines do is, when the flight's economy section is full, they will upgrade the Gold card members to business class and sell their economy seat on


True, but I think they'd still prefer the revenue from a discounted biz class fare. So they try the latter first, then if there are extra seats in business class on the day of the flight and, if overbooked in economy, they upgrade the Gold/Platinum members at check-in to make sure everyone gets a seat in the back.

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## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by Sailing into trouble
> 
> I didn't know that! How do you get that info? Just phone the airlines?
> 
> 
> Harry?...


Find yourself a good travel agent that knows staff at all the airlines and knows about what deals are taking place at any given time.

The only caveat is that you have to be flexible and work to their schedule not yours.

The cheapest seats are normally on empty flights that might only be in the air because they're repositioning for a peak time.

By way of an example. I've just pumped in a BKK-DBX-BKK in Business class for 12th-30th July.

The cheapest Business class fare is Bt33,000 on Thai Airways.

The cheapest Emirates flight (and they fly the A380) is Bt50,000.

I use this site as a guide Moxtravel and if I spot a decent fare, then I go to the airline's website.

Business class to London on those days ranges from Bt80,000 (Air India) to Bt150,000 (Swiss Air).

Like I said, it's all about shopping around.

There is nothing an airline likes less than an empty seat. Any revenue is better than none.

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## aging one

> Possibly wholly-owned by Thai. Not sure whether they're even still flying.


Yeah it was Thai, stupid idea as they still has Nok.  Wish more people knew about it. Dedicated to be at Don Muang, dont worry about connections, and give you a coke and some nuts.  Weekly or bi weekly sales seem like a decent deal. Not as cheap as Air Asia, but half of Thai, and for those closer to DM like me its sounds pretty good. Though still have not flown them yet. The wife is going up Sunday to Chaing Mai for a couple of nights and using them. 10 minutes to pick up and deliver her.  Hope to hell she likes it.

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## jandajoy



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## OhOh

UPDATE 2-Dubai firm axes Airbus orders in crisis fallout | Reuters

_"DAE Capital cancels remaining orders for 45 Airbus jets

* Doubts raised over orders for Boeing aircraft

* Dubai leasing company's CEO stepped down a week ago

* Airbus outsold Boeing in first half, EADS shares dip

(Adds details, background)

By Tim Hepher and Praveen Menon

PARIS/DUBAI, July 7 (Reuters) - A troubled Dubai leasing firm has cancelled all its remaining Airbus orders worth $5.8 billion, it emerged on Thursday, as the after-shocks of the financial crisis dampened celebrations of record new jet sales.

The clearout by DAE Capital failed to spook investors in Airbus parent EADS , which is well ahead of Boeing this year, but delivered a blow to Dubai at a time when the emirate is touting its recovery from a crippling 2009 debt crisis.

It also raises questions over the fate of about $9 billion in unfilled orders by the same leasing company from Boeing , which is due to update its order book later on Thursday.

DAE Capital has 56 unfilled orders from Boeing including 15 of its newest freighters based on the 747-8 stretch jumbo, according to the U.S. company's website.

Officials at DAE Capital, whose chief executive Robert Genise resigned on June 30, were not available for comment.

An Airbus spokesman confirmed the cancellations, which emerged in a monthly order snapshot dominated by strong sales of its A320neo passenger jet at last month's Paris Air Show.

Airbus sold a total of 777 aircraft in the first half, or 640 after accounting for cancellations such as the 45 remaining orders for A320 and A350 jetliners withdrawn by DAE Capital.

According to the most recent available data, Boeing won 210 gross orders and 151 net orders between Jan. 1 and June 28.

Fresh demand has been dominated by orders for fuel-saving narrowbody jets from India and Asia to dampen oil costs, but planemakers are still managing backlogs left vulnerable in some cases by the abrupt end of a previous ordering boom in 2008.

DAE had already cancelled Airbus orders worth $4.7 billion as well as a slew of Boeing orders in March and entered negotiations with both planemakers about the rest of its orders.

French brokerage Oddo said investors were prepared for the cancellations. Shares in Franco-German-led EADS fell 0.3 percent to 23.32 euros in a slightly higher European market.

LIQUIDITY

Dubai Aerospace Enterprise was formed in 2006 in a collaboration between several Dubai names including sovereign wealth arm Investment Corporation of Dubai, developer Emaar and state-linked DIFC Investments.

The company ordered more than 200 aircraft during the market heyday in 2007 but its ambitions fizzled out as the global financial crisis engulfed Dubai. It was reported last year to have ceded some of its orders to Dubai-based airline Emirates.

"The shareholders in DAE are government entities and each of them own at minor stake. So there is not a single entity that is championing for DAE and this may be a reason why it is marginalised," said Khuram Maqsood, former director at a Dubai investment fund.

"The cancellations had to do with the liquidity issues DAE is facing, and in general, Dubai is facing. The cancellations are just a symptom of the ground reality."

Still, a June bond issue by the Gulf Arab emirate came hard on the heels of a highly successful bond launch by flagship carrier Emirates -- the largest buyer for the Airbus A380 -- boosting Dubai's case that the worst was behind it.

The total of 777 first-half aircraft orders at Airbus includes 180 planes sold to India's IndiGo and 200 to Malaysian budget carrier AirAsia -- two deals that set volume records on successive days at last month's upbeat air show.

They do not however include 88 A320 jets sold to China on June 28 amid tensions with Europe over emissions trading rules.

"Some details still need to be finalised," an Airbus spokesman said.

Airbus delivered 258 aircraft including 10 A380 superjumbos between January and June. "_

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## Sailing into trouble

> 


feckin brill!!

No greens to give but god, did I laugh!

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## Tom Sawyer

> [
> 
> they still has Nok. Wish more people knew about it. Dedicated to be at Don Muang, dont worry about connections, and give you a coke and some nuts. Weekly or bi weekly sales seem like a decent deal. Not as cheap as Air Asia, but half of Thai, and for those closer to DM like me its sounds pretty good. Though still have not flown them yet. The wife is going up Sunday to Chaing Mai for a couple of nights and using them. 10 minutes to pick up and deliver her. Hope to hell she likes it.


Whilst out and about today I saw an indoor advert for Nok. Must admit they'd dropped off my radar til this exchange the other day. They ought to advertise more.. You told me more in your post than they ever have.. And I may want to use their service.. so opportunities are being lost.

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## Tickiteboo

Nok. Brilliant budget - carrier . I've used them many times between Don Muang and Ubon , and less than half the price of Thai . If you can slum it on the shuttle bus from Savannabhumi to DM ( 35 baht ,about an hour ) , it's definitly the way to go .

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## jandajoy

I hear long haul Qantas pilots might be on strike from Friday.

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## harrybarracuda

French cabin crew are going on strike at the end of July as well.

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## jandajoy

Shit. I fly on Sunday.

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## klong toey

> Shit. I fly on Sunday.


Bet you can't bet our record.

Delayed 5 days in Bangkok yellow shirts having a picnic at swampy.

Delayed 5 days London ash cloud.

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## OhOh

Speedboat not going today, too windy?

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## StrontiumDog

http://www.travelmole.com/stories/11...m_id=s~dnvY!~A

 
21 July, 2011   
*
Nok, Nok. Who’s there? It’s the wisecracking CEO*  

Patee Sarasin, chief executive of Thai low-cost carrier Nok Air is  not afraid of having a go at his rivals – among them Tiger Airways, Air  Asia and national carrier THAI Airways. 

Patee, speaking at the Aviation Outlook Australia Pacific conference  in Sydney, said Nok Air – unlike its rivals – was not trying to grow at  all costs.  

“Look at the example of Tiger Airways (currently grounded in  Australia by the aviation safety watchdog), when you try to expand too  fast you forget to do the small things you need to do.” 

Patee said Nok Air was succeeding by focusing on the domestic Thai  market and “making a lot of money by connecting smaller towns using  smaller ATR aircraft. 

“This networking gives us domination of the towns we connect. And  where we have new competition, we simply invite them to join us in an  alliance. We use our brand and sell through our network – it helps our  revenue and keeps competitors onside.” 

Nok Air distributes its products through 7Eleven stores and smart  phones. And it the next few months, the CEO said the airline would use  video conferencing to allow customers to talk to the person selling them  a ticket, or see a hotel room before they booked it. 

“Customers can see a room before they book, although the longer they look, the more the price of the room will go up.” 

Patee said Nok Air unashamedly employed “pretty young girls” as  cabin attendants. “When was the last time you saw a pretty 25-year-old  serve you in business class on a THAI Airways flight?” he asked the  audience at the Shangri-La Hotel in Sydney. 

AirAsia, he said, had tried to copy some of Nok Air’s  attention-grabbing self-publicity. “There was talk of Tony Fernandes  (AirAsia CEO) appearing naked for a promotion but, oh my god, would you  want to see Tony naked?” 

Patee said Nok Air’s load factor had never been below 78 percent for  the last two years and the airline was progressing “in a cautious way”. 

“That’s why Tony Davis (Tiger Airways CEO) is not here today,” he joked. 

In reply to a light-hearted question from the audience, Patee said  he had had nothing to do with getting Thailand’s new prime minister  elected – “although she is very pretty and, if I may say so, much  prettier than your prime minister in Australia.”

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## Takeovers

American Airlines buys Airbus planes

AMR Corp. (NYSE: AMR), parent of US carrier American Airlines, has  reversed a 15-year single-source purchasing program with Boeing Co.  (NYSE: BA) and decided to split an order for 460 planes between US-based  Boeing and European based EADS (OTC: EADSY), maker of the Airbus family  of aircraft. 

American will purchase 260 of the new Airbus A320neo  planes and 200 of Boeing’s venerable 737s beginning in 2013 and  continuing through 2022. 

Boeing may finally get the message that it needs to stop dithering  around on a decision to upgrade its 737 aircraft. The company has been  leaning toward developing a brand new plane as opposed to putting a new  engine on the existing 737. The A320neo adopts a new, more  fuel-efficient engine, which is the primary consideration among airlines  faced with skyrocketing fuel costs.

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## drawp

The AA thing is big news.  Boeing has been resting on its laurels too much and has been hoping that the "buy American" thing would always be their savior.. unfortunately they've failed to meet deadline after deadline and at this point they've failed to keep up with Airbus in using more fuel efficient engines.

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## harrybarracuda

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

Keep your eye open for the Dreamliner Mini.

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## terry57

> Patee said Nok Air unashamedly employed pretty young girls as  cabin attendants. 
> 
> Patee said,  Thailands new prime minister  is very pretty and if I may say so, much  prettier than your prime minister in Australia.



Jeez, thats not very hard is it and DD is much more pretty than Gillard.

I must try Nok as I've never flown them.

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## thehighlander959

This is my Emirates Airlines itinerary over the next month with my family ie.girlfriend and our twins. My flights are in yellow the family flights in blue/green.
Anyone have any idea of the airmiles ie Business Class and Skywards Gold holder. 

27/07/2011  DOH-DXB- EK850 ETD:1815pm ETA 1815pm BOEING 777-300ER   
28/07/2011  DXB-BKK - EK384 ETD:0315am ETA 1225pm AIRBUS A380-800
29/07/2011. BKK-DXB - EK419 ETD:0240am ETA 0545am BOEING 777-300ER
29/07/2011. DXB-LHR - EK001 ETD:0745am ETA 1215pm AIRBUS A380-800
12/08/2011  LGW-DXB- EK016 ETD:1425pm ETA 0015am BOEING 777-300ER
13/08/2011  DXB-BKK - EK384 ETD:0315am ETA 1225pm AIRBUS A380-800
16/08/2011  BKK-DXB - EK375 ETD:0940am ETA 1315pm BOEING 777-300ER
16/08/2011  DXB-DOH -EK849 ETD:1530pm ETA 1730pm BOEING 777-300

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## harrybarracuda

Skywards Gold gets you a 50% bonus on your miles, but what they are for each individual flight I don't know. 

If you're a gold card holder, try logging into the Emirates web site and see if they have a mileage calculator.

Added: WTF are you doing flying Emirates when you have Qatar on your doorstep? They're a far better airline.

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## thehighlander959

I had a bad experience on a Qatar flight a few years ago coming from London to Doha, we were delayed in London due to an undercarriage problem on the A330.
We finally got away 4 hours late. On the approach into Doha we must have fell the last ten feet onto the runway, all the luggage bins popped open and kit fell out all over the place.
*On leaving the aeroplane I spoke to the No.1 (Chief Flight Attendant) and asked her who had shot us down. She proceeded to give me a mouthful and I told her to fuck off and talk to the guy flying the fucking jet for his response to the controlled crash.*

I have never flown them since.. and no plans to either.

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## Tom Sawyer

^
Skytrax call them a FIVE Star airline - then again they also call Garuda something similar.

Skytrax (airlinequality.com ) lost all credibility a couple of years back - too bad. Though the travellers pix of the meals and seat ptich still usefull.

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## harrybarracuda

> I had a bad experience on a Qatar flight a few years ago coming from London to Doha, we were delayed in London due to an undercarriage problem on the A330.
> We finally got away 4 hours late. On the approach into Doha we must have fell the last ten feet onto the runway, all the luggage bins popped open and kit fell out all over the place.
> *On leaving the aeroplane I spoke to the No.1 (Chief Flight Attendant) and asked her who had shot us down. She proceeded to give me a mouthful and I told her to fuck off and talk to the guy flying the fucking jet for his response to the controlled crash.*
> 
> I have never flown them since.. and no plans to either.


Funnily enough I've had heavy landings and delays on most airlines, but I'm  FF on Qatar and I've never experienced such a problem.

And their Biz class and the VIP terminal are brilliant.

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## The Bold Rodney

> Funnily enough I've had heavy landings


Cut down on the Grog "arry" trust me it works, no heavy landing and no waking up with an ugly woman! (in the morning after)  :Smile:

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## thehighlander959

^^
Harry I know about their Business/First Class terminal, my brother and his wife flew to Thailand last August, they came Qatar Airways Business Class.
As you say they probably have got better,its maybe just a mental block for me.

I have had a few dodgy landings and take-offs over my flying lifetime. I don,t normally fly the airline again if I have a choice.
1. Qatar Airways -London-Doha (Hard Landing)
2. Air France -Paris - Johannesburg (Punctured tyres on landing very wobbly )
3. Alitalia - Dubai - Milan (Aborted take-off Dubai Boeing 767) nearly shit myself)
4. Cathay Pacific -London - Hong Kong (Kai-Tak) (had an excuse was sea sick)  :Smile:

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## crippen



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## harrybarracuda

> ^^
> Harry I know about their Business/First Class terminal, my brother and his wife flew to Thailand last August, they came Qatar Airways Business Class.
> As you say they probably have got better,its maybe just a mental block for me.
> 
> I have had a few dodgy landings and take-offs over my flying lifetime. I don,t normally fly the airline again if I have a choice.
> 1. Qatar Airways -London-Doha (Hard Landing)
> 2. Air France -Paris - Johannesburg (Punctured tyres on landing very wobbly )
> 3. Alitalia - Dubai - Milan (Aborted take-off Dubai Boeing 767) nearly shit myself)
> 4. Cathay Pacific -London - Hong Kong (Kai-Tak) (had an excuse was sea sick)


I once flew on a Turkish Airlines 707 from Istanbul to Athens. That's when I learned why the Pope kisses the fucking tarmac when he gets off the plane.

 :Smile:

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## BobR

> The AA thing is big news.  Boeing has been resting on its laurels too much and has been hoping that the "buy American" thing would always be their savior.. unfortunately they've failed to meet deadline after deadline and at this point they've failed to keep up with Airbus in using more fuel efficient engines.


Specifically, the 737 is a 1960's design and while it has been modernized, it's no longer competitive with the newer A320.

Glad I'm not flying this weekend or anytime soon, a friend just went through LAX and  said they've already raised the groping and pestering level to a new high using the Norway incident as an excuse.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> 


Holy crap, I bet that put a few stomachs in mouths (probably literally)!

 :Smile:

----------


## SteveCM

*Asia Sentinel - AirAsia Moves Corporate HQ from KL to Jakarta*

Saturday, 23 July 2011   
_Last Call for Jakarta_ _
Putting regional office in Indonesia is a blow for Prime Minister Najib_

  With all the troubles he has had over the last two months, the  announcement Friday that AirAsia, arguably Malaysias most vibrant  private company, is moving its headquarters out of the country to  Indonesia is one more blow. 

Tony Fernandes, AirAsias group chief executive, announced the decision  in Tokyo Thursday, saying the move is an effort to upgrade his companys  image as a regional Southeast Asian airline rather than just a  Malaysian carrier. 

I don't know whether Najib has been told or not, said a business  associate of Fernandes in Kuala Lumpur. But why should Tony care? There  are solid business reasons for moving to Jakarta.  

Najib has been on a whirlwind trip to foreign capitals to try and mend  the countrys image in the wake of a violent police crackdown on  peaceful marchers seeking to present a petition to the countrys king on  July 9, asking for election reform. In a throwback to the 1980s,  Malaysian censors blacked out details of a report about the march  carried in The Economist.  

That was followed on July 23 with the results of a royal commission of  inquiry that concluded that a young aide to an opposition politician had  been hounded so badly during a marathon interrogation over office  spending that he threw himself out of a window and killed himself.  

Then on Friday, immigration officials took William Bourdon, the leader  of a team seeking to ferret out the details of a massive scandal  involving defense procurement, off a plane in Kuala Lumpur, held him for  several hours and ordered him deported via a flight back to Paris.   

Fernandes characterized the move of the headquarters as a simple  business decision to take advantage of Indonesias vastly larger economy  and population, which is nearly 10 times that of Malaysias,  although  Malaysian annual per-capita gross domestic product of US$14,700 by  purchasing power parity is much higher currently than Indonesias at  US$4,200.  The size of the country, however, meant that the Indonesian  economy was estimated by the CIA Factbook for 2010 at SS$1.03 trillion  against Malaysias US$414.4 billion. 

AirAsias decision to move the headquarters is a serious negative  propaganda blow for Najibs 1Malaysia Plan, an intensive effort to lure  foreign direct investment to Malaysia. In September 2010, the Malaysian  government announced ambitious plans to mobilize hundreds of billions of  dollars in private investment in an effort to move the country out of  the so-called middle income trap, and double per capita income to push  Malaysia into the ranks of developed nations by 2020. 

AirAsia may well be the only Malaysian company besides the state-owned  energy giant Petronas to have made an international impact  and  Petronas does it by advertising intensively during Formula 1 races and  by sponsoring a car  which Fernandes does as well. Launched in 2002 as a  regional no-frills carrier with just two planes, AirAsia now flies 93  planes all over Asia. In addition, a long-haul service, AirAsia X, flies  to Europe, Japan and Korea.   This week, the company ordered 300 Airbus  A320neos.to expand its routes across Asia and beyond.  

It isnt just the publicity damage. In the past 10 years, according to  report by the news agency Reuters, private companies invested just RM535  billion (US$172.4 billion), according to official data. Malaysias  private investment rate of about 10 percent of GDP is among the lowest  in Asia and a third of what it was before the 1998 Asian financial  crisis. The government, according to Reuters, contributes around half  the investment in Malaysia. 

In addition, Malaysia has long been plagued by capital flight, which has  been generally regarded as an indication of lack of faith in the  country on the part of its businessmen, although in Malaysias case the  bulk may well be from stolen timber leaving the country from Sarawak and  Sabah. Nonetheless, the US-based financial watchdog Global Financial  Integrity estimated  in a 2010 report that as much as  RM888 billion  (US$298.3 billion at current exchange rates) had left the country  between 2000 and 2008. Illicit financial flows generally involve the  transfer of money earned through illegal activities such as corruption,  transactions involving contraband goods, criminal activities and efforts  to shelter wealth from tax authorities.  

AirAsia said the move is a bid to take advantage of access to the Asean  secretariat, which is based in Jakarta, in advance of an open skies  agreement expected to go into effect in 2015 and which is designed to  lower barriers for air travel between the regions capitals.  

Asked why he chose to move the fast-growing airlines principal  corporate base to Jakarta from Kuala Lumpur, Fernandes said: Asean is  based in Jakarta, and Indonesia will be the largest economy in Asean in  times to come  And I like it there  enough, he said, to have impelled  him to have already bought a home in Jakarta.  

The Indonesia National Air Carriers Association forecasts passenger  growth at 10 percent to 15 percent this year. Indonesias Central  Statistics Agency reported that domestic air traffic grew 22 percent to  53.4 million passengers in 2010 on  growing demand from the middle class  for domestic flights. That is higher than the 9 percent average  increase recorded by Asia-Pacific carriers, according to data from the  International Air Transport Association.  

Indonesia is among very few countries that managed to record strong  growth in air traffic last year, said an analyst quoted by the Jakarta  Globe. The lack of available airlines compared to population and  geographic conditions is only a sign that theres a lot of opportunity  here.  

_ (With reporting from the Jakarta Globe)_

----------


## terry57

Air Asia gets a shit load of free publicity in Australia. 

Every time they have a sale the press are all over it, bloody brilliant business man is Tony hence his success.

----------


## thehighlander959

It looks like this could be shrewd move by Air Asia (Tony Fernandez). 
He is not known in the world for letting the grass grow under his feet, although I am told by others that he is utterly ruthless in his business dealings.

Malaysia has issues that could cause a negative effect on his airline, whereas Indonesia is the largest muslim country in the world with a very poor airline service (some even dangerous)

This will be a major shot in the arm for Indonesian aviation that a decent quality LCC has moved their. Hopefully they will up the bar for all the other LCC in Indonesia as there safety record has been piss poor over the years.

----------


## harrybarracuda

With the amount of aircraft he's purchased, expect Jakarta Airport to expand significantly. In fact I wonder if an upgrade/expansion was part of the conditions?

----------


## Tom Sawyer

No - it's just that Jakarta's Blok M beats the Hard Rock Cafe in KL (or Planet Hollywood or whatever).

----------


## terry57

> (Tony Fernandez). 
> He is not known in the world for letting the grass grow under his feet, although I am told by others that he is utterly ruthless in his business dealings.



I've been flying AA from the get go and always thought it would be a major success story.

knew I should of bought shares in it.

----------


## terry57

[quote=harrybarracuda;1824798]

  Mis read it. Carry on

----------


## thehighlander959

^
I have noticed that Terry you have mentioned them a few times on here I also believe shared would have been a good idea

----------


## BobR

For anyone planning a trip to the USA, you cannot beat the Chinese Airlines on price.  China Eastern, China Southern and Air China are all partially or fully owned by the Chinese Government.
Anyway through Orbitz, I just booked a 2 week trip to the USA INCLUDING  a 2 week rental car from Avis for $1219 usd on China Southern. It would have been $940 without the car, and both prices include all taxes and fees.  Last year I went on China Eastern, it was not nearly as good as Eva or JAL, but they were not bad.  My experience on China Eastern was good, but they do have some horror stories about service on the internet.  China Southern is rated as a 4 star airline.

I believe China Eastern also flies to Britain, not sure about the others or the prices to GB.

----------


## robuzo

Bob- " USA INCLUDING a 2 week rental car from Avis for $1219"; is there a "special deals" section on Orbitz, or if you search for flights does that sort of thing pop up automatically? I definitely need a car when I go back. Actually, what I find is that the car rental is usually very cheap, it's the damned insurance and taxes that double the price (or worse).

----------


## BobR

> Bob- " USA INCLUDING a 2 week rental car from Avis for $1219"; is there a "special deals" section on Orbitz, or if you search for flights does that sort of thing pop up automatically? I definitely need a car when I go back. Actually, what I find is that the car rental is usually very cheap, it's the damned insurance and taxes that double the price (or worse).


No special section, and this price was offered on several other days along with an identical package for $1241.  This quote is for BKK-LAX and I booked it  for 10-24 of October.

On the Orbitz home screen, "check flight and car" and make sure you change the number of pax from 2 to 1. (it defaults to 2)
I've booked many trips through Orbitz and never had a problem.  The car rental is Avis too, not one of those micky mouse small outfits.

----------


## FailSafe

I just booked a flight from Bangkok to JFK on Emirates- not cheap at ~$2,000, but they fly the fastest route (through Dubai) and I'll get there in ~21 hours each way (I REALLY miss the Thai Airways BKK-JFK non-stop).

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
> Bob- " USA INCLUDING a 2 week rental car from Avis for $1219"; is there a "special deals" section on Orbitz, or if you search for flights does that sort of thing pop up automatically? I definitely need a car when I go back. Actually, what I find is that the car rental is usually very cheap, it's the damned insurance and taxes that double the price (or worse).
> 
> 
> No special section, and this price was offered on several other days along with an identical package for $1241.  This quote is for BKK-LAX and I booked it  for 10-24 of October.
> 
> On the Orbitz home screen, "check flight and car" and make sure you change the number of pax from 2 to 1. (it defaults to 2)
> I've booked many trips through Orbitz and never had a problem.  The car rental is Avis too, not one of those micky mouse small outfits.


Thanks, Bob.

^FailSafe- I miss that JFK Thai Air flight too. Emirates has amazing service, at least.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Thai Airlines flight probed for flying too low - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
*
*Thai Airlines flight probed for flying too low*

            Updated            July 27, 2011 14:58:07          


 *Map:* Tullamarine 3043 

   The Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) is  investigating an incident in which a Thai Airlines plane flew below the  minimum altitude while approaching Melbourne Airport.

The ATSB  says the Boeing 777 descended below the minimum required height when it  was 11 kilometres from the airport at 8:00pm (AEST) on Sunday in what  the safety board is calling a "serious incident."

Earlier this month, the Civil Aviation and Safety Authority (CASA) grounded Tiger Airlines flights after two similar incidents.

----------


## FailSafe

> FailSafe- I miss that JFK Thai Air flight too. Emirates has amazing service, at least.


That's good to hear- I've never flown them before- unfortunately they're not in Star Alliance (I don't think they're in any alliance) so the miles won't do me much good...

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> FailSafe- I miss that JFK Thai Air flight too. Emirates has amazing service, at least.
> 
> 
> That's good to hear- I've never flown them before- unfortunately they're not in Star Alliance (I don't think they're in any alliance) so the miles won't do me much good...


They dropped out of Star Alliance as of May 1 this year, I think. I flew them in April and am still trying to extract the miles out the bastards (UA MP says the miles are due me and they made a request). You might as well join their program, kill time by filling out a form during the flight.

----------


## harrybarracuda

I'm not surprised you're having problems getting Star Alliance miles out of Emirates. They've never actually been in it.

 :Smile:

----------


## FailSafe

> You might as well join their program, kill time by filling out a form during the flight.


I definitely will- I'll probably end up tossing it on the pile of other usless mileage that I've accrued, but if I like their service (and Thai Airways doesn't bring back the BKK-JFK flight- I have read that they might) Emirates might be my new airline to the States if I have a good experience with them.

----------


## robuzo

> I'm not surprised you're having problems getting Star Alliance miles out of Emirates. They've never actually been in it.


They were in a partnership with United- I didn't realize UA partnered outside of Star Alliance, but apparently they do; e-mail from UA:

"Our partnership with Emirates ended on May 28, 2011.  Flights completed on or before this date are still eligible for mileage credit." 

These are Emirates partners now:
Japan Airlines
Jet Airways
Kingfisher Airlines 
Korean Air
South African Airways

----------


## SteveCM

> Asia Sentinel - AirAsia Moves Corporate HQ from KL to Jakarta  Saturday, 23 July 2011 Last Call for Jakarta


*
Asia Sentinel - AirAsia to Stay in Kuala Lumpur*

Written by Our Correspondent                                                                                                                                        Wednesday, 27 July 2011                                                                                                                        We're not going anywhere

 _If they ever planned to move, they certainly say they arent going to now_ 

  AirAsia, the fast-growing Malaysia-based low-cost airline, has put on  an intensive damage control campaign to back away from a statement by  the airlines boss that implied that its regional headquarters would be  based in Jakarta. 

Tony Fernandes, the airlines boss, told the Jakarta Globe in Tokyo on  July 22 that the headquarters would be in Jakarta as part of an effort  to be regarded as a regional Southeast Asian airline rather than as a  Malaysian one. Fernandes was in effect confirming a story that had  appeared in the Kuala Lumpur-based Malaysian Insider on May 19. 

Asia Sentinel, quoting the Globe story, said the airline was to open its  base in the Equity Building in South Jakarta in October. Fernandes told  the newspaper he had already bought a home in Jakarta within walking  distance of the headquarters and that Asean is based in Jakarta, and  Indonesia will be the largest economy in Asean in times to come  And I  like it there.  

The story kicked off a storm in Malaysia.  In a prepared statement,  AirAsia said there are absolutely no plans, nor the inclination, to  move the headquarters of this Malaysian-incorporated company out of the  country. And our Malaysian-registered fleet of aircraft will continue to  operate from the LCCT, the Low-Cost Carrier Terminal at Kuala Lumpur  International Airport in Sepang. 

AirAsia is listed on the Kuala Lumpur Stock Exchange.  Its headquarters are in Petaling Jaya, a Kuala Lumpur suburb.  

Tony never said, or implied, that were moving away from Kuala Lumpur,  said Azman Osman-rani, the chief executive of AirAsia X, the airlines  long-haul carrier, in an email to Asia Sentinel. Irrespective of  however he described the Asean office to be set up in Jakarta, he very  clearly never gave any impression that we are packing our bags and  closing shop in KL. 

Asia Sentinel did seek to imply that the airline was leaving Malaysia behind, pulling out its planes and equipment.  

However, the story that the airline intended to open a regional office  in Jakarta was confirmed independently with sources in Kuala Lumpur, who  described it as a business decision to rebrand the airline as one with a  wider footprint than just Malaysia, and to seek to take advantage of  Indonesias vastly larger population and economy. Senior executives had  been recruited to staff the Jakarta office, the source said, calling it a  regional office.   

But, Azran said, the offices primary mission is to deal with Asean.   We have built a relationship with the Asean Secretary-General and want  to have a team based there to work on Asean-issues. (An executive who  moved to Jakarta) never even had core airline responsibility (Operations  or Commercial). He was in charge of communications. To equate (his)  move, some execs being hired in Jakarta and space (its a small space!)  as a move of headquarters is just grasping for straws. 

AirAsia executives in Kuala Lumpur say they have always planned to move  the regional headquarters instead to the long-delayed Kuala Lumpur  International Airport terminal 2, which is due to be built at Sepang ,  50 km. south of Kuala Lumpur.    

Some of the reaction could have more to do with outrage in the Malaysian  government, which has backed the airline heavily.  It is arguably the  countrys biggest success story and losing it would be a public  relations disaster for Prime Minister Najib Tun Razak, who has been  trying intensively to lure foreign investment. 

If they do that, they are going to lose government support, said an  aide to a top UMNO politician. Because AirAsia is backed by the gomen  (government). Lets see. My feeling is, yeah, you can make billions and  then tell Malaysia f off. But wait what happens next. Theyd better get  their planes out of here quick. 

AirAsia sources say relations with the Malaysian government have never been a problem.  

The airline has succeeded through a combination of joint ventures in  Thailand, Vietnam and Indonesia, where it remains a minority partner  with a 49 percent stake in each country.  It will own 35 percent of its  new joint venture in the Philippines, which is due to go into operation  soon.  Last Friday Fernandes announced a joint venture with ANA Group,  Japans largest carrier, to launch AirAsia Japan.   

Malaysia still delivers the bulk of the airlines business, with 5.1  million revenue passenger kilometers (RPK) in the first quarter of 2011,  followed by Thailand with 1.9 million RPK and Indonesia with 1.4  million.  However, the Malaysia figures appear to include Air Asia X,  the long-haul arm now serving the UK, Australia, France and Korea, which  is partly owned by Richard Branson, the UK-based owner of Virgin  Airlines, and by Air Canada.    

The growth potential, however, is clearly outside Malaysia and in long  haul  though acquiring long-haul traffic rights could be difficult. All  Air Asia X flights are from Kuala Lumpur currently, however, so KLIA  will remain the hub at least till they can get long haul rights  elsewhere.

----------


## Mr Lick

Received info today from www.Bangkokbestflghts.com for those who may be interested.


*Fly from Bangkok to London (LHR)*
*Airline* :* Etihad Airways (EY)*
Sale Period ( Economy ) : Now - 15 Aug 11
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Travel Period : 1 Aug 11 - 31 Mar 12 
*ROUNDTRIP :** 26,800 THB*
*All inclusive on *Economy class (U)* 
*ROUNDTRIP :** 79,500 THB*
*All inclusive on *Business class (W)* 

- Valid of ticket : 3 months
- Stop over : Permitted one in each direction
- Change : Permitted with fee 5,000 THB for Economy. Permitted with fee 3,000 THB for Business 
- Refund for Economy : Not permitted
- Refund for Business : 3,000 THB for fee
- No show : Charge 3,000 THB plus date change fee


**Offer is subject to availability**
**Taxes may change without prior notice* 
*Click here to see more promotions* 
Call +662 235 6625, +662 634 3124 for reservations 
*ADDRESS:* 163 Ocean Insurance Building UNIT 1A, Surawongse Road,Bangkok 10500, Thailand

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Australia's Jetstar denies exploiting Thai staff - Yahoo!7
*
*Australia's Jetstar denies exploiting Thai staff*

  AFP               
July 28, 2011, 3:55 pm            

 SYDNEY, July 28, 2011 (AFP) - - Budget Australian carrier  Jetstar strongly denied claims Thursday that it was exploiting foreign  cabin crew and overworking its staff following reports of 20-hour  shifts.

The airline said it took fatigue "extremely seriously" and  denied "it forces cabin crew to operate when fatigued" after former and  current staff and pilots told ABC television flight attendants were  overburdened.

Foreign crews based in Bangkok were especially  vulnerable, according to the ABC report, with open-ended employment  contracts stating the maximum 20-hour shift could be extended and  punitive exit clauses.

Jetstar chief Bruce Buchanan said a lot of the claims were "completely false and we completely deny them."

"The  claims about slave labour and the claims that we pay these people a  pittance -- our salaries in Thailand for instance, we are paying these  people Aus$20,000-$30,000 a year in Thailand. That ranks in the top few  percent of salaries in that country," Buchanan told ABC television.

Contracts  obtained by the ABC for Jetstar's Thai staff set a shift limit of 20  hours but stipulates that the "planned limit and operational extensions  may be extended by the employer".

They get paid just Aus$258  ($285) per month and $7 for every hour they fly, plus allowances, ABC  said, with penalties of up to 4.5 months of their base wage if they quit  early or are sacked.

Australia's minimum wage is Aus$590 per week.

Buchanan  said Jetstar was "competing in Asia" and in line with local conditions,  with two-thirds of its 3,000 flights per week to 17 countries in and  around Asia and one-third of its staff from the region.

ABC said  there had been almost 40 fatigue complaints from staff on Jetstar's  long-haul domestic routes in Australia, with some expressing concern  that they would be ill-equipped to handle an emergency after lengthy  shifts.

One former Australian crewman told ABC he "felt like a  slave" on the round trip from Sydney to the Indonesian island of Bali,  with a 15-hour overnight shift, which could easily become 20 hours with  delays.

Though Jetstar did not roster anyone for 15-hour stretches  Buchanan said there "were situations where people do extend" and  fatigue management was a joint responsibility of the company and the  individual.

"Look at the hard facts -- our cabin crew work an  average of 24 hours a week and you can't do too many 20 hour shifts (in a  24-hour week)," he said.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> *Australia's Jetstar denies exploiting Thai staff - Yahoo!7
> *
> *Australia's Jetstar denies exploiting Thai staff*


I'm surprised this is coming up again now - this story has been circulating since March, and surfaced again at the beginning of June.

All day, every day low wages at Jetstar, flight crews claim | thetelegraph.com.au

Slow News day?

----------


## drawp

I took a friend to the airport here in Macau today and I was shocked to see that Orient Thai was already operating their flight to Chiang Rai.  There's been little to no fanfare here, and heck you can't even find anything on Orient Thai's website to book.  Based off of their safety record I know I won't be flying them.  

The good news is that AirAsia will be opening a Chiang Mai <-> Macau route later this year.

----------


## jandajoy

I wish someone would start a Chiang Rai - Darwin run

----------


## Tom Sawyer

I was trying to book a BKK - Darwin flight a few momths back and I couldn't find an airline that flew that route. Are there no direct flight to Darwin from Thailand? I couldn't find one from Singapore either..everything went through Sydney

----------


## Rural Surin

> I was trying to book a BKK - Darwin flight a few momths back and I couldn't find an airline that flew that route. Are there no direct flight to Darwin from Thailand? I couldn't find one from Singapore either..everything went through Sydney


I find that hard to believe that one can't locate a connection from BKK to Darwin [from a major Asian port].

BTW Tom, I hate to come across pedantic - but within the industry, the term _direct_ refers to a stopover/connecting locale. A point-to-point flight is refered to as _non-stop._ Often confusing to us laymen.

----------


## OhOh

> Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer
> 
> 
> I was trying to book a BKK - Darwin flight a few momths back and I couldn't find an airline that flew that route. Are there no direct flight to Darwin from Thailand? I couldn't find one from Singapore either..everything went through Sydney
> 
> 
> I find that hard to believe that one can't locate a connection from BKK to Darwin [from a major Asian port].
> 
> BTW Tom, I hate to come across pedantic - but within the industry, the term _direct_ refers to a stopover/connecting locale. A point-to-point flight is refered to as _non-stop._ Often confusing to us laymen.


Jetstar do a flight BKK - Singapore - Darwin

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> I find that hard to believe that one can't locate a connection from BKK to Darwin [from a major Asian port].


Life is full of surprises...get over it or simply try flying from an airport! apart from that...who in their right mind wants to fly to Darwin?

Ooops...forgot...sorry "toomy" does but lets face it he's NOT exactly the full ticket! :Smile:

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Bangkok Post : THAI weighs plans to revamp fleet
*
*THAI weighs plans to revamp fleet*
Published:  7/08/2011 at 12:00 AMNewspaper section: News
 Thai Airways International needs a major revamp  of its fleet to maintain its leading status in the region and to deal  with fierce competition from Middle Eastern airlines, its head says.

 
_DON’T CUT THE RED WIRE: Thai Airways International president  Piyasvasti Amranand, left, talks to Airbus executives during a recent  visit to Airbus headquarters in Toulouse._

 THAI president Piyasvasti Amranand said the airline needed to  modernise its fleet to be efficient and meet safety standards. New  planes will also help restore lost market share in Europe.

 A new fleet will help cut the costs of maintenance and fuel and allow  THAI to adjust to the changing demands of air passengers. A recession  in Europe and the United States has reduced the number of long-haul  passengers, just as Asian demand is peaking.

 The company won cabinet approval on April 21 for a plan to procure 75 aircraft worth 457 billion baht from this year to 2022.

 In the first phase of the procurement from this year to 2017, THAI  will receive 37 planes to replace 50 old planes which have been used for  11.7 years on average.

 Of the 37 planes, THAI will buy 15 worth 49.53 billion baht and rent  22 worth 69 billion baht. The lease will speed up the procurement and  the new planes will be operated on intercontinental, regional, and  domestic routes.

 From next year to 2015, THAI will receive five bought Airbus A320 aircraft and six rented ones of the same type.

 In August next year, THAI will receive its first Airbus A380-800 and  all six of this type will have been delivered by October 2013.

 THAI will receive four bought Airbus A350-900 planes and eight rented ones of the same type in 2016 and 2017.

 For the second phase from 2018 to 2022 covering 38 aircraft, THAI has  not selected the types of aircraft it will need. The selection will  depend on its future study on aviation markets. The airline president  once specified needed aircraft well in advance, but found that reduced  THAI's bargaining power. "The aircraft market has shifted from a buyer's  market to a seller's. The delay in specifying the aircraft needed will  enable us to bargain for cheaper planes," Mr Piyasvasti said.

 Aircraft producers are making planes with lower fuel consumption  because the oil price has been increasing. From 1990 to 1998, the oil  price was US$20 per barrel. It has increased since 2000 and was at  US$100 in 2008. It is expected to reach US$120 in 2016.

 Jerome Grau, Airbus' marketing director for Southeast Asia, said  global air traffic doubles every 15 years and in the next 20 years the  world would need 1,740 very large aircraft, 6,240 twin-aisle aircraft  and 17,870 single-aisle aircraft.

 In 2029, airlines in the Asia-Pacific region would be leaders in  aviation business and inter-city travel demands would rise by over half,  he added.

 Industry research projects the number of air passengers will increase  by 53% and the amount of air freight will rise by 64% over the next  three years. In Thailand, the number of international air passengers  will increase by 5.3% annually while domestic will rise by 4.2% annually  from this year to 2017. From 2018 to 2022 the number of international  passengers and domestic passengers should go up by 4.4% and 3.4%  annually respectively.

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by Rural Surin
> 
> I find that hard to believe that one can't locate a connection from BKK to Darwin [from a major Asian port].
> 
> 
> Life is full of surprises...get over it or simply try flying from an airport! apart from that...who in their right mind wants to fly to Darwin?
> 
> Ooops...forgot...sorry "toomy" does but lets face it he's NOT exactly the full ticket!


I did fly from Bangkok to Darwin once. Bloody mistake. The train across Aus dont leave so often. So I was with aussies with loser t-shirts (i mean those sleeveless undershirts, and at the mall) and drunken abos at the pavement.

----------


## jandajoy

> Jetstar do a flight BKK - Singapore - Darwin


True but you have to overnight in singapore.

----------


## terry57

> And drunken abos at the pavement.



Holly fuk mate, don't say that, you'll send Willy and his girlfriend JJ into a spin.

They where not drunk mate but merely resting. Just come of the red eye from Alice Springs,  Tax payer funded of course.  :Smile:

----------


## terry57

> The good news is that AirAsia will be opening a Chiang Mai <-> Macau route later this year.


That is good news, pain in the arse getting into Hong Kong from there fuking around changing money, customs and the boat trip.

Great for entry into China though.

----------


## IceSpike

You can Charter a Cessna direct Utapo-Darwin from Thai Flying School, low price too.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> You can Charter a Cessna direct Utapo-Darwin from Thai Flying School, low price too.


That's interesting. Can you charter one to Angeles?

 :Smile:

----------


## IceSpike

> Originally Posted by IceSpike
> 
> 
> You can Charter a Cessna direct Utapo-Darwin from Thai Flying School, low price too.
> 
> 
> That's interesting. Can you charter one to Angeles?


Yes you can!
Direct to Clark or Subic Bay.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by IceSpike
> ...


Wow I'd love to fly into Subic. How much do you reckon it would cost?

----------


## IceSpike

Estimate 160,000 Bt with 8 seats. 20000 bt each pax. Round Trip!
Divide it up with some Mates your Flying Cheap. better than first class. BYOB.
We did this in Feb to Macau from U-Tapao.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> Ooops...forgot...sorry "toomy" does but lets face it he's NOT exactly the full ticket!


Ahh the irony. Thanks for the laugh Rodney.
 :rofl:

----------


## IceSpike

Thai Air Asia is good. Just Like BTS. Actually, who cares if you get a seat? Just need a Ride to the next destination.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Bangkok Post : THAI sister airline launch set for 2012
*
*THAI sister airline launch set for 2012*
Published: 20/08/2011 at 12:00 AMNewspaper section: News
 Thai Airways (THAI) has announced the creation of a sub-brand airline called Thai Smile yesterday.

 Ampon Kittiampon, chairman of the airline's board, said the board had  approved the establishment of the airline, which is a business unit  affiliated with THAI.

 Thai Smile will start flying in July next year. Mr Ampon  characterised it as a light-premium airline segmented between  full-service and low-cost.

 THAI president Piyasvasti Amranand said the moniker was chosen from 2,229 entries in a naming contest.

 He said Thai Smile will operate using THAI's TG airline code with 11  Airbus A320 planes in its fleet, four of which are slated for delivery  next year.

 ''The airline's fares will be appropriately priced,'' he said. ''I'm confident it will be competitive in the airline market.''

 Thai Smile will not affect THAI's plans to also launch Thai Tiger  Airways (TTA), a discount carrier in partnership with Singapore's Tiger  Airways, which will materialise ''as soon as possible''.

 Despite fierce competition in the fast-growing low-cost airline  market, there is room for TTA to be a viable operation, said Mr  Piyasvasti.

 Thai Smile and TTA will not undercut each other because they are  seeking different groups of customers. THAI also operates another budget  airline, Nok Air.

 Mr Piyasvasti has discussed the proposed airlines with Transport Minister ACM Sukampol Suwannathat.

 Woranate Laprabang, THAI executive vice-president for new airline  units, said Thai Smile would initially fly short-haul flights one to two  hours from Bangkok.

 Flights on high-traffic routes will be frequent and schedules made convenient for passengers connecting to THAI flights.

 In the first year of operation, Thai Smile will fly to Ubon  Ratchathani, Udon Thani, Khon Kaen, Chiang Rai and Surat Thani. In 2013,  the airline will begin operating short-haul international routes within  Asean, and to India and China.

 Mr Woranate said he hoped Thai Smile would start turning an annual  profit of around 5 billion baht in 2013. The airline will offer a meal  service, free baggage allowances and mileage accrual, he said. Tickets  will be sold mainly online.

----------


## jandajoy

^ Good.

Now, let's have Chiang Rai to Singapore.

----------


## thehighlander959

And whats going to happen to Thai Airways? When all these LCC get the green light and start operations.
I dislike Thai anyway because of their old aeroplanes and poor service. 
I am not sure if this is an improvement or not, have to wait and see. But am not expecting to much from Thai as per usual.

----------


## BobR

> Bob- " USA INCLUDING a 2 week rental car from Avis for $1219"; is there a "special deals" section on Orbitz, or if you search for flights does that sort of thing pop up automatically? I definitely need a car when I go back. Actually, what I find is that the car rental is usually very cheap, it's the damned insurance and taxes that double the price (or worse).


The taxes are included and so long as you use a Mastercard, Visa or Amex to book the trip, they provide the collision insurance which covers only damage to the rental car at no extra charge.  In most States (but not California) the rental agency is required to provide liability coverage as part of the deal. That's all you need.  The rental counter people will try to badmouth the credit card plans, but in truth they work just fine.
There is no greater waste of money than buying redundant insurance.  Check with your bank (usually website) and it will tell you if your credit card issuing bank includes the free collision damage insurance as one of their credit card bonuses, most do.

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
> Bob- " USA INCLUDING a 2 week rental car from Avis for $1219"; is there a "special deals" section on Orbitz, or if you search for flights does that sort of thing pop up automatically? I definitely need a car when I go back. Actually, what I find is that the car rental is usually very cheap, it's the damned insurance and taxes that double the price (or worse).
> 
> 
> The taxes are included and so long as you use a Mastercard, Visa or Amex to book the trip, they provide the collision insurance which covers only damage to the rental car at no extra charge.  In most States (but not California) the rental agency is required to provide liability coverage as part of the deal. That's all you need.  The rental counter people will try to badmouth the credit card plans, but in truth they work just fine.
> There is no greater waste of money than buying redundant insurance.  Check with your bank (usually website) and it will tell you if your credit card issuing bank includes the free collision damage insurance as one of their credit card bonuses, most do.


Mine definitely does include the CDW, but the liability usually costs a fair amount. I usually rent in CA and FL, and liability is required in both those states. Those states also have a hell of a lot of uninsured motorists, but that is a topic for another thread. . .

----------


## KAPPA

> I dislike Thai anyway because of their old aeroplanes and poor service.


This guy has done wonders.  




> THAI president Piyasvasti Amranand


 Thai Air ran the ad for a president ran for some time, the period  to apply was even  extended. They begged this guy to come aboard for a while, and he did provided  he was given free hand.  He got a loat of flack with raising prices, but it has paid off, I guess with this new venture.

 I've always preferred the Boeing, the planes are old , but I have confidence in the  integrity of the maintenance. I like 4 engines on a long haul. 
  I don't  any budget   Asian airlines, but this one, I might.

----------


## BobR

> Originally Posted by thehighlander959
> 
> I dislike Thai anyway because of their old aeroplanes and poor service.
> 
> 
> This guy has done wonders.  
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I like Thai but honestly do not see how they stay in business with their prices.  I was looking at taking a short Hong Kong  trip with a Thai friend after returning from the USA in October.  Emarates is about $275 on an A380, Thai is over $1200 on a who knows what.  

The same with the USA trip; it's not worth $1200 just to avoid a 3 hour layover in China.

----------


## thehighlander959

This guy can do as many wonders as he likes with Thai Airyways. The main problem is their aircraft are old,outdated and their flight product is poor as I said before.
You said you have confidence in the integrity of the maintenance of Boeings,are you telling me you have no confidence in the maintenance integrity of Thai,s Airbus aircraft?
I am a very frequent flyer my friend and if I have choice I would much rather fly on the Airbus A340/A380 series of aircraft than any Boeing twin jet 737/757/767/777 or four jet 747 no matter what series the 747 is.
Newer aircraft normally have less maintenance issues.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Thai Airways to launch Smile Air in 2012 - Cheapflights.co.uk
*
*Thai Airways to launch Smile Air in 2012*


All Smiles ... Thai Airways to launch Thai Smile in 2012

British travellers taking flights to Thailand next year will be able to benefit from new connecting flights across Thailand after Thai Airways announced the launch of a new low-fare airline.

Thai  Smile Air is set to take to the skies in July 2012 and will operate out  of  Suvarnabhumi Airport in Bangkok and will initially fly  domestically.

Cities likely to be served by the new carrier are:  Ubon Ratchathani, Khon Kaen, Chiang Rai, and Surat Thani. Thai Airways  also plans to launch Smile Air internationally in 2013, as well as  launch "as soon as possible" Tiger Airways, a discount airline in  partnership with Singapore Airlines.

“Thai Smile Air will operate  using THAI’s TG airline code, and will be appropriately priced to ensure  the product is competitive in the airline market,” said THAI President  Mr Piyasvasti.

Part of Thai Airways’ mandate as the national  carrier of Thailand is to "play a part in spreading awareness around the  world of the uniqueness of Thai culture, its customs, and traditions."

Every year an estimated ten million travellers visit Thailand, many from the UK. Thai Airways currently flies Bangkok, Chiang Mai, Chiang Rai and Phuket from London Heathrow.

In  total, the airline operates a fleet of 85 aircraft, flying to more than  70 destinations in 35 countries. It also boasts services to more Asian  nations than any other carrier.

----------


## thehighlander959

The above post is like an advert for Thai Airways. As i have said in previous posts, I am not greatly enamoured by Thai Airways in any way shape or form.
There product is sub standard with old aircraft that don,t meet the standard required.Especially as the competition in Asia ie. Singapore Airlines and Cathay Pacific out of Hong Kong have a much better product. And much better flight routings, not to mention Emirates.Qatar and Etihad from the Middle East who are killing most Asian Airlines on flights to Europe.

----------


## OhOh

EUobserver.com / Justice & Home Affairs / Germany ditches body scanners after repeat false alerts

*Germany ditches US made body scanners after repeat false alerts*

_"The German interior ministry has decided to postpone a plan to roll out body scanners at airports for security reasons, after a trial phase showed that the devices are incapable of distinguishing armpit sweat from concealed bombs.

Two trial machines installed at Hamburg airport returned false alerts at a rate of 49 percent. The errors included confusing sweaty armpits with concealed bomb chemicals. "The ministry has decided that the software must be improved," a statement from interior minister Hans-Peter Friedrich read on Wednesday.

Unlike metal detectors, the advantage of the US-made full body scanners is supposed to lie with the ability to detect plastic or ceramic elements concealed under clothing. Similar devices are being used in the US, Great Britain and the Netherlands.

But human rights groups, the European Parliament and religious organisations have been outraged at the use of such technology, which in the initial stage portrayed a real outline of one's bodily features. They are also expensive, costing over €130,000 a piece. The European Parliament itself has six machines which have never been used.

"The federal police will closely support development in this field so that hopefully devices will soon be available that meet our high safety standards and take passenger volume into account," Friedrich said.

Last year, Italy also decided to scale back its body-scanners plan, citing similar experiences in the trial phase.

Meanwhile, a vote in the European Parliament's transport committee on Wednesday outraged the Liberal group, as it failed to oppose a wording in the technical specifications for EU-wide rules on body scanners. The rules, carved out by the European Commission, do not specifically rule out the use of naked imagery.

"The rules do exclude the use of x-ray technology, which is something we wanted. But it doesn't oblige producers to use stick figures instead of the actual body image," Benjamin Krieger, a spokesman for the German Liberals in the European Parliament told this website."_

----------


## harrybarracuda

That reminds me: I saw one of those sniffer machines on level 3 at Swampy yesterday.

----------


## OhOh

China to build world's biggest airport - Telegraph



_"When Beijing Daxing International airport opens in 2015, the Chinese capital will become the world's busiest aviation hub, handling around 370,000 passengers a day.
It is only three years since the opening of Terminal 3 at Beijing Capital Airport, a sweeping structure designed by Sir Norman Foster that is far bigger than all of Heathrow's five terminals combined.
But an enormous boom in China's aviation industry has already left the capital's existing facilities stretched to breaking point. "It is impossible to add even one more flight to the tight daily schedule of the Capital airport," said Li Jiaxing, the minister in charge of China's Civil Aviation Administration. 

"The existing airport in Beijing has an annual capacity of 75 million passengers. Last year it handled 73 million," said Cao Yunchun, a professor at the country's Civil Aviation University. "In two years, it will be totally packed. And it cannot be expanded infinitely," he added. Instead, Beijing's planners have found a 21 sq mile site to the south of the city, in the suburb of Daxing. Currently the site is around an hour's drive from the city centre, but planners are pencilling in an extension to Beijing's metro, and perhaps even a high-speed train line.

The new facility will not only serve Beijing, but also Tianjin and parts of Hebei as the Chinese capital morphs into a mega-city, its suburbs merging into those of the cities around it. The airport will be Beijing's third, after Capital and the smaller, primarily military, Nanyuan airport.
Beijing Daxing is likely to have eight runways for civilian use and a ninth for military use, according to Yao Weihui, the general manager of China United Airlines. "The suggested location is a place with few residents and buildings, so a lot of runways can be built," added Wang Jian, the secretary general of the China Civil Airport Association.

However, unlike London, which is currently the world's busiest hub, the majority of the traffic going through Beijing is made up of domestic Chinese travellers. So far this year, Chinese passengers have outnumbered international travellers four-to-one at Beijing's Capital airport.
Last year, China's aviation industry reported profits of 43 billion yuan (£3.9 billion), three times the figure for the previous year. In the coming two decades, China is forecast to buy at least 4,300 new jet aircraft, and Boeing has recently upped its targets for the country by 25 per cent.
"We are expecting Beijing to play a major role in transport for the Asia Pacific region," said Professor Cao."_

Lets hope they are training some competent air traffic controllers!

----------


## FailSafe

I should say that I was quite pleased with Emirates to the States from BKK- I would use them again.

----------


## socal

> Originally Posted by IceSpike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> ...


Harry wants to go to pubic bay. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## socal

> The above post is like an advert for Thai Airways. As i have said in previous posts, I am not greatly enamoured by Thai Airways in any way shape or form.
> There product is sub standard with old aircraft that don,t meet the standard required.Especially as the competition in Asia ie. Singapore Airlines and Cathay Pacific out of Hong Kong have a much better product. And much better flight routings, not to mention Emirates.Qatar and Etihad from the Middle East who are killing most Asian Airlines on flights to Europe.


Emertaes, Singapore and Cathay are among the best in the world. Shooting a little high arnt you ?

----------


## SandMike

And for a cheaper option on Harry's Pubic Bay trip, Tiger Airways BKK-DMIA (Clark) - well he's almost there ... 50km to go.

2 flights a week, 4070 baht return.

----------


## harrybarracuda

What are the timings though, Mike? I can't even get flights to come up on their website.

I think things will improve when Air Asia move to Clark.

 :Smile:

----------


## SandMike

Harry,

Looks like Mon/Wed/Sat

BKK/DMIA(CRK) 15:40/19:55  Flight No. DG7213

DMIA(CRK)/BKK 12:35/14:50 Flight No. DG7212

Couldn't find a timetable, so just messed around with the booking days.

link :-   Tiger Airways- Lowest fares to Singapore, Australia, China, Hong Kong, India, Indonesia, Macau, Malaysia, Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, Taiwan

Hope this helps, Mike

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Harry,
> 
> Looks like Mon/Wed/Sat
> 
> BKK/DMIA(CRK) 15:40/19:55  Flight No. DG7213
> 
> DMIA(CRK)/BKK 12:35/14:50 Flight No. DG7212
> 
> Couldn't find a timetable, so just messed around with the booking days.
> ...


Actually not bad! Makes the two centre holiday all the more easy!

 :sexy:

----------


## thehighlander959

Socal,

Not shooting high at all. As an international carrier Thai Airways are playing with the Big Boys in Aviation. They have remained stagnant in terms of growth, with a poor product that is not good enough when compared to the other big hitters mentioned in my post above.
They are soon to get their first A-380 I have been informed this will be the perfect aircraft for them to up the anti on their inflight services. Lets see if upgrades are done as per your Thai Airways Orchid mileage or will it be who you know at the airport and is the back hander big enough to ensure your upgrade.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Lets see if upgrades are done as per your Thai Airways Orchid mileage or will it be who you know at the airport and is the back hander big enough to ensure your upgrade.


Rhetorical question, I assume?

 :Smile:

----------


## thehighlander959

You know what I mean "Arry"!!!!!!: :Smile:

----------


## BobR

Did anyone else catch the video of Yingluck leaving on her first trip as Prime Minister?  She was flying Singapore Airlines.

----------


## robuzo

> Did anyone else catch the video of Yingluck leaving on her first trip as Prime Minister?  She was flying Singapore Airlines.


Maybe one of our resident Thailand Kremlinologists can explain that one.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> She was flying Singapore Airlines.


Personally as long as the bloody aircraft gets me there and back in one piece I don't give a flying fuck!

As to the quality or service like whether the heated up food is up to scratch or whether the lettuce is crisp enough etc. most airline food is much the same (heated up crap). :mid:

----------


## hazz

> Originally Posted by BobR
> 
> 
> Did anyone else catch the video of Yingluck leaving on her first trip as Prime Minister?  She was flying Singapore Airlines.
> 
> 
> Maybe one of our resident Thailand Kremlinologists can explain that one.


Whilst government procurement rules require the purchase of Thai International flights there is an exception when the alternatives are 20-30% cheaper.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> I am not greatly enamoured by Thai Airways in any way shape or form. There product is sub standard with old aircraft that don,t meet the standard required.Especially as the competition in Asia ie. Singapore Airlines and Cathay Pacific out of Hong Kong have a much better product.


They're getting walloped by Cathay - especially on South Asian and US/Canada routes. Then again what do you expect when an airline has only ONE destination in the Untied States - and it ain't even New York (Only LA - they tried a route to NY for a short time then embarrassingly dropped it as they couldn't compete with others).

Cathay is head and shoulders above THAI. Too bad really as THAI used to be really good. The international standard to Europe has declined too it seems (from reading Skytrax reviews anyway - haven't tried it myself lately - but recall they were flying old 747s).

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> Did anyone else catch the video of Yingluck leaving on her first trip as Prime Minister? She was flying Singapore Airlines.


Perhaps the intended message is Thailand is now open for business again. Foreign inward investment most welcome. (Oh yeah - and maybe she actually wants a real meal on her flight - and not half a cold sandwich and a plastic container of sugary orange drink)
 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## English Noodles

A RYANAIR jet had to make two emergency landings  on the same journey after the crew found themselves struggling to  breathe when fumes filled the cabin. 


As the flight attendants lurched for their own  oxygen masks, terrified passengers and screaming children looked on in  horror during an emergency descent. 

                      One man was so unwell he had to be treated by paramedics when the plane landed for the second time.
                      Ryanairs regulator, the Irish Aviation Authority, is now investigating the incidents. 
                      Although  Ryanair insists an overheated oven caused the incidents, Captain John  Hoyte, a former pilot who runs the Aerotoxic Association, said last  night that there may have been a more worrying explanation.
                      He  said: It has all the hallmarks of a bleed air fume event, where  toxic engine oil has got into the bleed air supply in the cabin.
                      It  is bad enough to have one fume event but to then divert after a second  fume event just demonstrates the [at]cavalier attitude Ryanair and others  take on this.
                     Potentially a much more serious matter, this has been the subject of a Sunday Express investigation. 
                      The emergencies happened during a flight from Girona in northern Spain to Stansted airport. 
                      Adelina  Comas-Herrera, a London based academic who was travelling with her  husband and two children, said about an hour after take-off, she noticed  that something wasnt right.
                      She  said: There was a call from the captain to the cabin crew and they all  rushed to the front of the plane to speak to him. Suddenly the cabin  crew ran to the back of the plane and started moving the passengers  towards any spare seats in the front. 



We were told there was smoke at the back of the plane and we were [at]going to do an emergency landing.
                      She said that despite the obvious concern, the atmosphere remained [at]relatively calm. 
                      The  Boeing 737-800 was met by fire crews as it landed at Nantes airport, in  France, where [at]passengers disembarked. However, they had to sit without  any refreshments for four hours while they waited for a Ryanair  [at]engineer to arrive.
                      At about 4pm the plane was cleared as being safe  for take-off once again but less than an hour later, when they were  over the Channel, Ms Comas-Herrera said a real sense of panic started  to break out. 
                     She said:  The captain said the problem had re-occurred and we were having to do  another emergency landing, this time at Gatwick. 
                      The crew were looking distinctly bewildered and ill and were holding handkerchiefs to their faces.
                      Eventually  they got oxygen masks for themselves, which left us wondering whether  we needed them. I didnt want my children exposed to the fumes, my eyes  were stinging. 
                      She  described the descent, 12 days ago, as mad and incredibly fast. She  said: Ive never experienced anything like it. Children were crying.  They were alarmed by the panic around them and their ears were hurting.  There was a young man on board who was feeling extremely ill. 
                     His [at]family, who did not speak English, were standing up, trying to make themselves understood. 
                      After getting back to her home in Kent, her anger intensified when she read Ryanairs account of the flight on its website. 
                      She  said: I was completely shocked. They were trying to mislead the public  about what had happened by saying it was passengers who had reported  the fumes.
                      Last night  Ryanair apologised to passengers, saying: The fault was subsequently  identified by our engineers as an electrical malfunction with one of the  ovens in the rear [at]galley. The oven was replaced. There were no health  consequences to any [at]passenger or cabin crew.
                     By  way of compensation for the frightening ordeal, Ryanair has [at]offered  the passengers a time-limited voucher worth £75 off their next Ryanair  flight. 
                      However, passengers said the airline had crossed the line and vowed never to fly with it again.


Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | UK News :: Horror on budget jet

----------


## Tom Sawyer

Sounds like the pilots had the situation in hand and did everything correctly. An emergency descent is the correct procedure I believe. No one ever said it would be a pleasant experience - it's required to get the plane on the ground in one piece as fast as possible - and with the passengers and crew still breathing. A risk of fire on board an aircraft is the worst possible thing that could happen short of a break-up in mid air. Sounds like the technician in France is the one who fecked up. Another Daily Mail torque job.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Fuck me that is one crappy airline.

----------


## English Noodles

Pikey Air.



To be sure, to be sure...

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Sounds like the pilots had the situation in hand and did everything correctly. An emergency descent is the correct procedure I believe. No one ever said it would be a pleasant experience - it's required to get the plane on the ground in one piece as fast as possible - and with the passengers and crew still breathing. A risk of fire on board an aircraft is the worst possible thing that could happen short of a break-up in mid air. Sounds like the technician in France is the one who fecked up. Another Daily Mail torque job.


Tom, perhaps yes, if it hadn't landed, and then taken off again without the problem being fixed. Ultimately that's the captain's decision, and it means he fucked up in my book.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

Is he supposed to be a specialist in on-board ovens? Yes - he's in charge. But a technician is called to check the problem, fix it and give the aircraft an ok for airworthiness. At some point the Captain has to make a judgment that's true, but he's most likely going to accept the advice of the technician.

----------


## thehighlander959

I think there is more to this story for Pikey Air than meets the eye. Do Pikey use their ovens in flight? I thought cold snacks were the order of the day.
If I was the pilot and was forced to land because of a problem with the aircrafts inflight ovens. I would have had them disconnected for the next leg of the flight to ensure there were no further problems.
On arrival at destination report ovens are U/S and require repair and maintainence befor the aircraft is airworthy again.

----------


## English Noodles

> Do Pikey use their ovens in flight?


Don't think they do.

----------


## English Noodles

In fact they are so low budget that I'm sure they were talking about putting coin operated toilets on the planes.

----------


## English Noodles

*Now Ryanair to charge £1 to use the toilet*

Ryanair is taking no-frills flights to new heights - by charging for  lavatories. All onboard toilets will become coin-operated, forcing  passengers to pay £1 or one euro.

The Irish airline is also cutting the number of loos, meaning there may be only one on planes carrying 189 passengers.  
 It already charges customers to check in luggage, for online check-in, for onboard snacks and for credit card payments.  
 Ryanair's Stephen McNamara said: 'By charging for the toilets we are  hoping to change passenger behaviour so that they use the bathroom  before or after the flight.  
 'That will enable us to remove two out of three of the toilets and make way for at least six extra seats.'  
 The airline mooted the idea of toilet charges last year but backtracked after criticism.  
 It also emerged yesterday that its single bag check-in charge will rise from £15 to £20 during the summer holidays.  
 Rochelle Turner, head of research for Which? magazine, said: 'Ryanair  might claim that they are incentivising people to travel light but we  think it is more a case of penalising those families who can only go  away on holiday during this time.  
 'Flying with Ryanair is not as cheap as it first appears and we would  advise passengers to factor in these extra costs when choosing who to  fly with.'  
 A survey yesterday revealed passengers are paying massively over the odds for plane snacks.  
 Prices on low-fare carriers are 374% higher than at supermarkets, according to comparison site travelsupermarket.com.  

Read more: Now Ryanair to charge £1 to use the toilet | This is Money

----------


## Tom Sawyer

^
There's an even better one I've seen where they planned to install semi upright seat-spineboards! It meant they could squash an extra 5 or 6 rows into the plane! You never actually "sat" down - more like leaned backwards with a seatbelt around you hips and your' bum resting against something like a 2-by-4.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

While it's okay to gripe about Ryan Air - don;t forget Air Asia. You can buy their meals - if they have any on board - and often they don't. Oh and you're not allowed to bring your own food/drink on board anyway, whether they have any food/drink to sell you - or not.

----------


## StrontiumDog

Thai Airways is now world s 2nd best airline : National News Bureau of Thailand

*Thai Airways is now world s 2nd best airline*  

BANGKOK, 12 September  2011 (NNT)-Thai Airways International Public Company Limited, Thailand’s  own airline, is now ranked the world’s second best airline in the world  and in Asia Pacific, according to Business Traveler Asia-Pacific Awards  2011. 

Thai Airways International President Piyasawat Amranand said the airline  was also awarded in various categories such as the second best for its  mileage offers, the third best for best business class services and the  third best for its passenger lounge. 

According to Mr. Piyasawat, the Business Traveller Asia-Pacific Awards  2011 was held in Hong Kong this year where 55 awards had been presented  to tourism and airline operators. The results derived from Business  Traveler Magazine subscribers who were asked to vote. The majority of  subscribers are business people and tourists who travel often. 

Mr. Piyasawat said the awards were the result of the hard work and  cooperation that the executives and the airline staff had strived for.  As a representative for Thai Airways, Mr. Piayasawat said the airline  would continue to satisfy the passengers and maintain its services and  quality.

----------


## English Noodles

My old apartment building won the Best Serviced Residence in Asia-Pacific award.

----------


## klong toey

^^And the winner was One2Go.

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by BobR
> ...


Thanks for the info. If it weren't the PM we were talking about that would help explain. Most Thais taking government business-related flights aren't filmed setting out. PR should trump a minor difference in the cost of a first-class (or is she really scrimping and saving?) fare, so I can't help but wonder if there is some other dynamic involved.

----------


## thehighlander959

Thai Airways the second best airline in the world? This guy must be having a laugh. It is eighteen months since the last time I boarded a Thai Airwys flight to Dubai,very disappointing due to the fact that the flight was late TG/EK 6200 if I remember correctly.The big problem I remember was the slow service in Business Class and the favouritism the flight attendants had for their fellow Thai passengers. The Australian lady sat next to me en route to Dubai and onwards to Frankfurt with Emirates pressed the call button four times for some water. I stopped the flight attendant after that and she brought her a small glass of water.just a poor service by a poor airline.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Now Ryanair to charge £1 to use the toilet


Scraping the barrel now "noodless"? 

This was news some years ago, is that why the date of the article is removed?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

More to the point is how Ryan Air rip people off for an extra bag, anything overweight and especially sports equipment like golf clubs!

----------


## English Noodles

> Scraping the barrel now "noodless"?  This was news some years ago, is that why the date of the article is removed?


No. I said it was from some time ago.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> No. I said it was from some time ago.


Ooops... I must have missed that quote?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## oldgit

I wonder if anybody has crapped in the sick bag yet, sod paying a pound  :Smile:

----------


## BobR

> *Now Ryanair to charge £1 to use the toilet*
> 
> Ryanair is taking no-frills flights to new heights - by charging for  lavatories. All onboard toilets will become coin-operated, forcing  passengers to pay £1 or one euro.
> 
> The Irish airline is also cutting the number of loos, meaning there may be only one on planes carrying 189 passengers.  
>  It already charges customers to check in luggage, for online check-in, for onboard snacks and for credit card payments.  
>  Ryanair's Stephen McNamara said: 'By charging for the toilets we are  hoping to change passenger behaviour so that they use the bathroom  before or after the flight.  
>  'That will enable us to remove two out of three of the toilets and make way for at least six extra seats.'  
>  The airline mooted the idea of toilet charges last year but backtracked after criticism.  
> ...


It would surprise and disappoint me if European regulators sit back and allow this to happen.  In California for example, pay toilets are illegal and to eliminate the obvious problem, employers and most businesses that cater to the public are required to provide them in prescribed numbers as a condition for a business license.  There is a limit to how low people should want to allow aviation to sink
Also, the first time someone craps his pants or pees in the aisle because he does not have change, and the plane has to divert of an allegedly "unruly" passenger this will get rethought.  Then there's the likelihood of litigation for emotional distress by a passenger who has an "accident" in public because of this policy.
I had read that O'Leary had come out and admitted this was a hoax for the free publicity????

----------


## English Noodles

Just watched a documentary about Ryan air. Really shocking. It's called Ryanair Caught Napping.




> Ryanair was founded in 1985 by Irish businessman Tony  Ryan. It is Europe’s largest low-cost carrier, operating 270 low-fare  routes to 21 European countries.Two Dispatches  undercover reporters spent five months secretly filming Ryanair’s  training programme and onboard flights as members of the cabin crew.
> The  reporters reveal what really takes place behind the scenes: inadequate  safety and security checks, dirty planes, exhausted cabin crew and  pilots complaining about the number of hours they have to fly.
> And watch Ryanair staff speaking frankly about their experiences and attitudes towards passengers.


It can be watched here; Ryanair Caught Napping | Watch Free Documentary Online

----------


## Sailing into trouble

Yip true but they stress it is cheap. That is what it is all about. Pay your money and take your chances. 

Now at the other end of the scale, Air Canada on top of all the other surcharges are charging $75 extra for your 1st bag! then more for the second. They also have a policy that passengers bags are left behind as they sell space at a premium for air freight. Airlines are out to make money, It is a business to them.

----------


## klong toey

We flew Ryan Air once,cheap yes i think we paid £36 return for 2 people to Milan.
Only time i thought i was going to die whilst flying,the landing coming back in to England was very bad,even the cabin crew look worried.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Yip true but they stress it is cheap. That is what it is all about. Pay your money and take your chances. 
> 
> Now at the other end of the scale, Air Canada on top of all the other surcharges are charging $75 extra for your 1st bag! then more for the second. They also have a policy that passengers bags are left behind as they sell space at a premium for air freight. Airlines are out to make money, It is a business to them.


And there was me thinking they were doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.

 :Smile: 

On another note, a mate of mine wanted to fly to Capetown recently, in Biz class.

Flying economy BAH-LHR (Gulf Air econ), then LHR-DXB-CPT-DXB-LHR (Emirates Biz all the way) finishing with LHR-BAH (Gulf Air econ) was almost a third cheaper than DXB-CPT-DXB (Emirates Biz).

How fucking mad is that?

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Body scanners for Suvarnabhumi airport | Pattaya today newspaper
*
*Body scanners for Suvarnabhumi airport*

 
Posted by  pattayatoday 
on Sep 21st, 2011

The airports authority in Thailand has invested 100 million  baht to improve security screen areas at the country’s leading  international airport.  Eight full body scanners will be introduced for  maximum security checks at a new security zone to be brought to the  mezzanine floor after airline check-in.

This innovation will necessitate travelers to take an escalator up to  walk through the scanners and then take another escalator down to the  immigration check-in area.



The  airports authority said the contract bidding process was in hand and  that the new technology should be available for customer use by the end  of 2011.

One concern is that airline passengers at Suvarnabhumi are increasing by  six percent a year and the airport is now close to maximum capacity at  45 million yearly.  Short term plans include making better use of  existing spaces and the use of some domestic terminals for international  flights at night only.

In the longer term, there are plans to build a new terminal at a cost of  over nine billion baht which will be able to handle 20 million more  passengers.  Thus, by 2015, the airport should be able to handle 65  million passengers annually.  The Cabinet has yet to agree on plans for a  new terminal.

----------


## StrontiumDog

Thai-ASEAN News Network

THAI to Launch Budget Thai Smile Airline in July 2012 

UPDATE : 21 September 2011                     *

Thai International Airways has approved the introduction of the Thai Smile Airline, a new low-cost carrier, in July 2012.

President of Thai International Airways or THAI, Piyasawat Amaranand  announced that the company has decided to introduce Thai Smile Airline, a  new low-cost carrier, in July of next year.
*

Initially, the airline will offer only domestic routes before expanding,  particularly to ASEAN member countries, including China and India.

The hiring process of the new crew has been outsourced to WingSpan Services, an employment company partially owned by THAI. 

Starting from October 2011, the company is planning to hire 40 pilots and 100 flight attendants.

The Transport Ministry has supported the establishment of the new  airline, citing that THAI needs a new carrier to compete in the low-cost  market, which is currently being dominated by Thai Air-Asia.

THAI is planning to expand its capacity to accommodate all customer  segments with Thai International Airways as a premium carrier, focusing  on intercontinental and main regional routes, while the new Thai Smile  Airline will emphasize domestic and secondary regional routes. 

At the same time, Nok Air will continue offering ultra-low cost flights to domestic destinations.

----------


## crippen

Leahy "extra large version of the A380 by the end of this year."


Rough translation:

The Airbus is not big enough. The European aircraft A380 is already the largest aircraft in the world, but according to insiders, there are plans to build an even longer version, the so-called Airbus XXL to accommodate 1,000 passengers.


The Airbus A380 is currently the largest passenger plane in the world. However, the European aircraft manufacturer is working on plans for an extra large version of the type.


Initially the company had plans for a super-plane in 2006, which were put on the back burner when there were production problems with the A380.

The projections now are that air traffic over the next twenty years will grow substantially and that worldwide around 28,000 new aircraft will be needed to meet that demand.

According to the manufacturer, not only infrastructure must be built to keep up with demand, but it will also require aircraft with greater capacity.

"I really would not be surprised if the plans for the extra large version of the A380 by the end of this year become a reality," said John Leahy, Airbus commercial director.

BA, CX, EK......?

 :mid:  :mid:  :mid:

----------


## harrybarracuda

All about economies of scale. With fuel prices guaranteed to rise, they have to look at reducing the cost of each seat.

----------


## OhOh

> All about economies of scale. With fuel prices guaranteed to rise, they have to look at reducing the cost of each seat.


Wouldn't they require bigger/heavier engines and more fuel to push the stretched 380 along?

----------


## OhOh

SAMC Signs Deal with Boeing



_"Shanghai Aircraft Manufacturing Co (SAMC) has signed a 10-year contract with Boeing Co for horizontal stabilizers for the company's 737 aircraft, an SAMC official said on Sept 20.

"This is the largest single supplier contract China's aviation industry has signed with Boeing," said He Dongfeng, president of SAMC.

Both Boeing and SAMC declined to disclose the value of the contract, but an SAMC employee with knowledge of the deal said on condition of anonymity that it must be more than $100 million.

"It will take 10 years to deliver," He said, but declined to disclose the number of horizontal stabilizers involved.

The contract will take effect next month.

In January, SAMC delivered its 2,000th 737 horizontal stabilizer to Boeing in 11 years - the company can currently make a month.

Horizontal stabilizers are fixed on the tail of aircraft to balance the aircraft.

Boeing has 35 suppliers in China, and it is the largest buyer of aviation parts made in the country, committing hundreds of millions of dollars annually to its suppliers.

"About 6,000 aircraft from Boeing, flying all over the world, have Chinese fingerprints," said Bertrand Marc Allen, president of Boeing China.

The Boeing 737, the company's most popular aircraft, has had more than 9,000 orders to date, and currently has a backlog of more than 2,100 orders.

Boeing is under heavy pressure to deliver so many orders, Allen said, and it tries to work closely with suppliers, including SAMC, to increase the production rate of the 737 from the current 31.5 to 42 a month by 2014.

The contract was signed during the 14th Beijing Aviation Expo, the oldest aviation expo in China. Almost 200 aviation companies are attending the event, which runs from Sept 21 to 24.

Boeing has shown models of its new aircraft, including the 787 Dreamliner and 737 MAX, during the expo. The 787 Dreamliner has already got 60 orders from five Chinese airlines, which will be delivered from early 2012.

Airbus SAS is showing an A380 at the expo. It will deliver the first of these to a Chinese customer in October.

Embraer SA, an important regional aircraft manufacturer, forecasts that China will have 975 new regional aircraft in the next 20 years, accounting for 13 percent of global market demand."_

----------


## Sailing into trouble

> Flying economy BAH-LHR (Gulf Air econ), then LHR-DXB-CPT-DXB-LHR (Emirates Biz all the way) finishing with LHR-BAH (Gulf Air econ) was almost a third cheaper than DXB-CPT-DXB (Emirates Biz).


Harry, Ive had about 6hours sleep in the last 5 days, then you post this! My brain Hurts :Smile:  In the middle of the night at 1/2 time I say a rating from passengers top 10 airlines. Virgin and Virgin Atlantic with New Zealand were in the top 10 with Royal Thai at 10 the other 6 All from the middle east!

So that would sort of say that the average Christian likes to fly Muslim Air! Strange world isn't it. :mid:

----------


## Sailing into trouble

Didn't I just hear that airbus has just about wrapped up the chinese market?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Didn't I just hear that airbus has just about wrapped up the chinese market?


That was a manufacturing deal, not a purchase.

 :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

Meanwhile, Boeing's desperate attempt to claw back some business with a plane that may well be superseded in a couple of year's time.




> *Boeing Dream Comes True: Delivery Of New 787*
> 
> 
> 0 Comments 
>  	 	 		 			11:48am UK, Monday September 26, 2011 		
> * 			After three years of delays costing billions of dollars, Boeing's 787  Dreamliner has become a reality as the US company gets set to deliver  its first order to Japan's All Nippon Airlines. 		*
> 
> 
>  		 		 		 		With the formal documents signed, the first of the $200m (£129.4m) planes is scheduled to head for Tokyo on Tuesday.
> ...

----------


## OhOh

EasyJet founder Sir Stelios launches rival airline Fastjet - Telegraph



_"The move has reignited conflcit between Sir Stelios and easyJet which had eased after the low-cost airline returned £190m to shareholders last week that will net his family £71m. After the announcement of the dividend, Sir Stelios dropped a request for an extraordinary shareholder meeting to force non-executive Professor Rigas Doganis off the board.

However, today EasyJet said it had received notice from Sir Stelios of his plans for Fastjet and said it was ready to act should rights established under previous agreements between him and the airline be infringed. Sir Stellios has set up a website, Fastjet.com, which has this notice: "Festjet,.com by Stelios. Coming soon."

EasyJet said in a statement that Sir Stelios alleged that the airline has breached the terms of a binding comfort letter of October 10, 2010, and that that letter is no longer in force - claims which easyJet "emphatically rejects".

Under the agreement, easyJet said Stelios had agreed not to use his own name or a derivation of it to brand any other airline within Europe for five years.
Sir Stelios alleged in a statement that he: "Strongly believes that the directors of easyJet, via a smear campaign conducted by off the record briefings to journalists, have repeatedly breached the clause below, so he has terminated the effect of the letter for repudiatory breach and has rejected all payments offered under this letter since May 2011."

His family owns about 38pc of easyJet."_

----------


## Bower

Fastjet.com, maybe easy access business class at a good price ?

----------


## OhOh

Actor Leisha Hailey thrown off flight for kissing girlfriend Camila Grey | Television & radio | The Guardian





_"Celebrity airport arrests were once big, splashy affairs – Paul McCartney getting arrested in Japan for marijuana possession, or a frenzied Courtney Love flinging her underwear around Heathrow.

Now, the frustrations of air travel in the post 9/11 age have generated a different sort of friction – in which one person's idea of free expression seems to run smack into the airlines' definition of inexcusably bad behaviour.

Just ask Leisha Hailey, a musician and moderately well known television actor who was thrown off her flight in El Paso, Texas, this week after she kissed her girlfriend and bandmate, Camila Grey, in the seat next to her.

A cabin crew member, apparently responding to a passenger complaint, told Hailey that Southwest was a "family airline" and asked her to stop. By the time Hailey and Grey had stopped swearing and cursing, they were back in the airport, waiting for the next flight.

Southwest later insisted the problem was the abusive language, not the kiss. "The conversation escalated to a level that was better resolved on the ground, as opposed to in flight," it said.

After days of incensed reaction from Hailey, her friends and the lesbian and gay community, however, Southwest backtracked, saying it was offering a full refund for the flight and had "reached out to extend goodwill" – a form of words that fell just short of an outright apology.

Earlier this month, the lead singer of Green Day, Billie Joe Armstrong, was escorted off another Southwest flight in California because he refused to pull up his sagging trousers when asked. "Don't you have better things to do than worry about that?" he retorted. The flight attendant responded: "Pull your pants up or you're getting off the plane."

Armstrong complained, loudly, after he and his companion were taken back to the airport, and Southwest ended up apologising.

He was luckier than Deshon Marman, a college American football player who suffered his own baggy trouser incident on a US Airways flight in June. He ended up in handcuffs, under arrest and charged with trespassing, resisting arrest, and battery on a police officer. The charges were later dropped, and Marman is now suing the airline.

What these episodes have in common is that the affected passengers have all complained loudly and used their fan base to whip up outrage. Advocacy groups have also muscled in. The Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation pointed out that Southwest is a corporate sponsor and urged everyone to do the right thing. A black advocacy group called Color of Change pointed to the different treatment handed out to Marman, who is black, and Armstrong, who is white, and said it was a clear instance of race discrimination.

"The vastly different treatment of these two passengers underscores the need for greater oversight and training by the airlines," the organisation's executive director Rashad Robinson said.

The airlines, in turn, appear to be running scared from the negative publicity. Kevin Smith, the film director, has not stopped making hay over an incident in February last year when Southwest threw him off a flight, supposedly because he was too fat. Southwest, once again, offered "heartfelt apologies" but also said he had been removed "for the safety and comfort of all customers"."_

Training of staff recognised as an area for improvement, The "Fat" police are already at work in the US.

Seems only the heterosexual "family" is recognised by SouthWest.

----------


## harrybarracuda

I wouldn't mind a couple of carpet munchers going at it in my cabin, providing they were lookers.

----------


## Sailing into trouble

> I wouldn't mind a couple of carpet munchers going at it in my cabin, providing they were lookers.


Cabin in the woods eh Harry? :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
> 
> I wouldn't mind a couple of carpet munchers going at it in my cabin, providing they were lookers.
> 
> 
> Cabin in the woods eh Harry?


Er, what?

----------


## Sailing into trouble

It was a weak attempt at humor. You said cabin in the woods! Much better to be alone in a cabin in the woods with a couple of goers than in a ryan air cabin!

----------


## harrybarracuda

> It was a weak attempt at humor. You said cabin in the woods! Much better to be alone in a cabin in the woods with a couple of goers than in a ryan air cabin!


I didn't mention any woods. Been drinking again?

----------


## OhOh

Qantas and Airbus agree largest plane order in Australian history - Telegraph

_"The deal is worth $9.5bn (£6.2bn) for 78 A320neos and 32 A320s, which will be used to help Qantas expand its short-haul business in Asia. It confirms the popularity of the A320neo for Airbus, an upgrade from the single-aisle A320 which burns 15pc less fuel than its predecessor.The plane has helped to ensure Airbus has delivered more planes and taken more orders this year than its bitter rival Boeing. 

The European manufacturer won 1,038 net aircraft orders in the first nine months of the year, including 918 neos, compared with 426 net orders for Boeing.

The engines for the A320neo are produced by Pratt & Whitney and CFM International, a joint venture between General Electric and Snecma. Rolls-Royce decided against investing in the Airbus upgrade of the A320, which is the world's best-selling aircraft family with more than 7,900 worldwide orders.
It was a Rolls-Royce Trent 900 engine that exploded last year on a Qantas A380 plane, which grounded the Australian company's fleet of long-haul aircraft while investigations into the incident took place.

However, Alan Joyce, the chief executive of Qantas, who is locked in an employment battle with trade unions, has praised the "outstanding operational efficiency and comfort" of the Airbus A320. He said: "The Airbus A320 will be the launch aircraft for Qantas' new premium airline based in Asia and will support Jetstar's expansion plans – including the establishment of Jetstar Japan." The Airbus chief operating officer, John Leahy, said: "Coming from one of the world's great aviation pioneering companies, this order is a great endorsement of Airbus and of our eco-efficient aircraft products."

At a press conference in Sydney to confirm the Qantas order, Airbus bosses also said they could provide financing for airlines to acquire planes "if necessary" amid global economic uncertainty."_

----------


## OhOh

ANA pilot nearly flips Boeing 737 by hitting wrong button - chicagotribune.com

Video - chicagotribune.com

_"In a chilling reminder of how a simple human error can override the highest of high technology, an investigation has shown that All Nippon Airways Co. narrowly escaped a catastrophe earlier this month when its plane almost flipped over after a co-pilot hit the wrong button while trying to open the cockpit door for the plane's captain, returning from the restroom. 

The revelation came at an awkward time for the Japanese carrier, just hours after the first of the new-generation Boeing Co. 787 Dreamliner jets on which it has built its future strategy finally landed in Tokyo on Wednesday, more than three years behind schedule. 

The celebratory mood was quickly over as Shin Nagase, a senior executive vice president at ANA, apologized and bowed deeply in front of TV cameras at a news conference to apologize for the trouble caused by the incident, which took place Sept. 6. 

According to the Japan Transport Safety Board, two flight attendants were slightly hurt when the Boeing 737-700, with 117 people aboard, tipped more than 130 degrees to the left at one point and dived about 1,900 meters in 30 seconds during a flight from Naha on the southern island of Okinawa to Tokyo. Two flight attendants were slightly injured and six passengers became airsick or reported neck pains. 

ANA said a 38-year-old co-pilot likely hit the rudder trim controls by mistake instead of pushing the door unlock button to let the captain in after he stepped out of the cockpit to go to the restroom. 

Computer graphic images compiled by the safety board showed the plane turning almost upside down, but many passengers on board apparently did not realize the gravity of the situation, since it was already dark outside when the incident occurred at around 10:50 pm. 

The safety board will continue the investigation, while a company spokeswoman said ANA will take preventative measures to make sure that pilots do a double-check on where the controls are located as they leave and return to the cockpit. The company said it will also try to improve its reporting lines, admitting that officials were not aware of the incident until the following day."_

Interesting choice of button position by Boeing.

----------


## BobR

_"Don't you have better things to do than worry about that?" he retorted. The flight attendant responded: "Pull your pants up or you're getting off the plane."
_

I would love to see some of the US carriers pay out some serious money for the abusive conduct by their trolly dollies, who seem to be little nothings who have been given too much power in the post-9/11 panic.  That cop on the beat attitude is why I will fly any Asian carrier over any US carrier.

----------


## DrAndy

> Originally Posted by Sailing into trouble
> 
> 
> It was a weak attempt at humor. You said cabin in the woods! Much better to be alone in a cabin in the woods with a couple of goers than in a ryan air cabin!
> 
> 
> I didn't mention any woods. Been drinking again?


 
well you fucking should have done

what's your problem?

----------


## DrAndy

> the abusive conduct by their trolly dollies


more like "trolly slags" most of them

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> _"Don't you have better things to do than worry about that?" he retorted. The flight attendant responded: "Pull your pants up or you're getting off the plane."_
> 
> 
> ... (will I) fly any Asian carrier over any US carrier.


That's a 'hands down' answer!
 :Smile:

----------


## klong toey

Singapore Airlines (SIA) plans to launch its long-haul budget carrier in April with inflight Internet access among the attractions, a report said Tuesday.
SIA had no immediate comment on the details of the Straits Times story, which said the unit could be called Scoot Airlines.

The newspaper said the airline will start off with just one Boeing 777-200 before increasing its fleet to four aircraft within three months and 14 planes by mid-2016.

The firm is expected to serve destinations in Europe, the United States, Australia and New Zealand, it added.

Citing information from internal documents obtained by the newspaper, the Straits Times said SIA plans to charge passengers for using wi-fi services to access the Internet via laptops, tablet computers and smartphones.

It also said the airline was considering the feasibility of renting out portable devices for inflight entertainment.

Singapore Airlines budget arm 'to launch in April' - Yahoo!

----------


## jandajoy

Anybody seen reports on JETSTAR desk crews unions refusing to collect excess luggage fees on Friday?

----------


## harrybarracuda

*'Damn it, we're going to crash, it can't be true!': Terrified final words of pilot on doomed Air France jet 
*

    By  Peter Allen

Last updated at 1:22 PM on 13th October 2011


The final words of three terrified  pilots on board an Air France jet which crashed into the Atlantic Ocean  have emerged today for the first time.
In  a scandal which is set to shock all those who work or travel on  commercial flights, they reveal absolute panic and ignorance among those  in charge of the aircraft.
The  exchange is from the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) on Flight 447, which  went down in a tropical storm with the loss of 228 lives while flying  from Rio de Janeiro to Paris in June 2009.

 Wreckage: Brazil Navy sailor recover debris from  Air France flight 447. A new book on the crash has revealed pilots  panicked as the plane lost altitude




 
 


Doomed: Flight captain Marc Dubois, left,  was not in the cockpit when the plane stalled. Right, Pierre-Cedric  Bonin said he had lost control of the aircraft




'Damn-it! We're going to crash. It can't be true,' says one of the pilots.

'But,  what's happening?' another replies, seconds before the Airbus 330  plunged into the water, killing everyone on board including five Britons  and three Irish doctors.

Until  now only selected excerpts from the conversation between 37-year-old  David Robert, Pierre-Cedric Bonin, 32, and Marc Dubois, the 58-year-old  captain of the plane, have been released.
Air  accident investigators kept the rest hidden, saying they did not want  to upset families of the pilots lost in the worst crash in the company's  history.
But Jean-Pierre Otelli, a veteran French flying instructor, has now written a book in which he lays the dramatic moments bare.
Rio-Paris Crash: A Collection of Pilot Errors describes how the men failed to deal with a loss of lift.


 Inexperience? One of the plane's flight data  recorders on the ocean bed. Recordings made in the cockpit have revealed  the two co-pilots were too panicked to tell the captain what was  happening



Mr Dubois, who had 11,000 flying hours  behind him, was on a routine break when it happened, leaving his two  subordinates in charge.
'So,  is he coming?' Mr Robert is heard muttering, even swearing in  frustration when Mr Dubois takes a full minute to get back to the  cockpit.
'Hey, what are  you...' Mr Dubois is heard to say when he gets back, to which Mr Robert  replies: 'What's happening? I don't know, I don't know what's  happening.'

Instead of  lowering the plane's nose to deal with the stall - as they should have  done according to normal procedures - they raised it.
Mr  Bonin is heard saying: 'I've got a problem I don't have vertical speed.  I don't have any indication,' before his captain replies: 'I don't  know, but right now we're descending.'

 Disaster: The aircraft was in an aerodynamic stall, but the pilots failed to push the nose down to correct it



Air France argues that the pilots were  baffled by numerous confusing signals from the Airbus, while the plane  manufacturer insists that it was responding properly.

As the plane approaches the sea, the crew began conversing in short, panicked questions.
*THE FINAL MOMENTS
*

*David Robert*: 'Go back up!… Go back up!… Go back up!… Go back up!'
*Pierre-Cedric Bonin*: 'But I've been going down at maximum level for a while.'
*Marc Dubois*: 'No, No, No!… Don't go up!… No, No!'
*Mr Dubois*: 'Damn-it! We're going to crash. It can't be true!'
*Mr Bonin*: 'But what's happened?!'


 'What do you think? What do you think? What should we do?' said Mr Robert, while the plane rocked from side-to-side.
'I  don't have control of the plane, I don't have control of the plane at  all,' Mr Bonin replied, as a stall alarm resounded for the sixth time in  two minutes.
According to  an official report released earlier this year, the last words were from  Captain Dubois who said: 'Ten degrees pitch.'

Mr Otellis writes: 'The real question is who will be held responsible for this mess.

'It  is a training problem, fatigue, lack of sleep, or is it due to the fact  the pilots are confident than an Airbus can make up for all errors?'

France's  air accident investigation unit, the BEA, reacted angrily to the  publication of the book, with a spokesman saying printing the  conversation showed a 'lack of respect to the memory of the crew who  died'.
Air France has denied  that its pilots were incompetent, but has since improved training,  concentrating on how to fly a plane manually when there is a stall.

Both Air France and Airbus are facing manslaughter charges, with a judicial investigation led by Paris judges under way.

A  judge has already ordered Air France to pay some £120,000 in  compensation to the families of each victim, but this is just a  provisional figure which is likely to multiply many times over.

Read more: 'Damn it, we're going to crash, it can't be true!': Terrified final words of pilot on doomed Air France jet | Mail Online

----------


## OhOh

Rolls-Royce agrees US engine tie-up - Telegraph



_"United Technologies, Pratt & Whitney's parent company, and Rolls Royce will form a joint venture aimed at supplying engines to planes that seat between 120 and 230 passengers.
It is one of the fastest-growing parts of the commercial aircraft market, and Rolls-Royce said around 20,000 such planes are forecast to be built over the next 20 years.
The agreement "charts a clear course for the future of Rolls-Royce in the important mid-sized aircraft segment", said Mark King, head of civil aerospace at Rolls-Royce.
Alongside the new joint venture, Pratt & Whitney will also pay Rolls-Royce $1.5bn (£953,000) to buy out the British company's stake in an existing joint venture the two have to make the V2500 engine for the Airbus A320 passenger plane.
However, the arrangement could be worth several billion dollars more to Rolls-Royce because the UK manufacturer will receive a payment for each hour flown by planes currently using the V2500.

Rolls-Royce said that the restructuring of its arrangements with Pratt & Whitney will add about £140m of operating profits in the first year.
"Overall the majority of the value to Rolls-Royce will be derived from flight hour payments due over the next 15 years," the company said last night.
Todd Kallman, who runs Pratt & Whitney's civil aerospace business, said: "We look forward to the next generation of aircraft engines that will offer even greater operational and environmental benefits."
Shares in Rolls-Royce closed 0.2pc stronger in London at 626p."_

----------


## harrybarracuda

Yes, I noticed that RR are not supplying engines for the A320 NEO.

Surprising. Although maybe the A380 debacle has left Airbus a bit nervous.

----------


## oxyjohn

^^ terrifying

----------


## thehighlander959

^
Whats terrifying about the tie up its good business for RR & P&W, have a look see how many engines that RR are putting on the Airbus A-350? Its the engine of choice..

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^
> Whats terrifying about the tie up its good business for RR & P&W, have a look see how many engines that RR are putting on the Airbus A-350? Its the engine of choice..


Note sure he was talking about that post ....  :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

13 October 2011 Last updated at 13:41 GMT     	

*Plane carrying 32 crashes in Papua New Guinea*

 
                       A plane carrying 32 people has crashed in Papua New Guinea, causing a number of deaths.
         The Accident Investigation Commission said the Airlines PNG  Dash-8 was flying from Lae to Madang when it crashed 20km south of  Madang around 5pm (8am GMT).
         "There were 32 people on board and there are some survivors and some fatalities," spokesman Sid O'Toole told AFP news agency.
         Mr O'Toole said there had been "adverse weather around the area at the time".
         He told Australia's ABC News there had been reports of a fire.
         Most of the passengers were believed to be families of local students set to graduate this weekend.
         Emergency services and a crash investigator were at the scene of the crash, Mr O'Toole said.. 
         He said Australian transport accident officials had been asked for assistance.

----------


## IceSpike

A Crying Fukin Shame! Weather is never an issue, just don't fly! Let the People wait, they will understand. If the Avionic system is non-function different thread!
NFE!!!!!

----------


## jeepdodge

I'm trying to find a westerner who took the dataplates from a Dakota DC 47 near Ongharak outside Bangkok.
The owner would like the dataplates back for the Dakota as the Dakota will be put in a musuem.

----------


## IceSpike

> I'm trying to find a westerner who took the dataplates from a Dakota DC 47 near Ongharak outside Bangkok.
> The owner would like the dataplates back for the Dakota as the Dakota will be put in a musuem.


Try The US, Maybe NC Mate. They scrouged all, many years ago!

----------


## jeepdodge

Thanks, We know that it was only in the passed 3 years that the data plates were removed by a westerner living near Ongharak, so hopefully if the westerner is reading this forum, we would be very greatfull if he returned the Data plates.

----------


## OhOh

China's first Airbus A380 airplane ordered by China Southern Airlines arrives at Beijing Capital international Airport in Beijing, capital of China, Oct. 15, 2011. A ceremony was held at the airport soon after the airplane's arrival on Saturday to launch the operation of the Airbus A380, and China Southern Airlines became the first operator of the A380 in the country. (Xinhua/Jing Lei)

----------


## thehighlander959

^
A great aircraft to fly in I have flown in Business and First Class on Emirates A380, certainly the bar and shower facilities in First Class make it a flight you will never forget as well as the service.
The Singapore A380 to London was great as you seem to fly well above the flight level of other aircraft we were at 43,000ft for most of the flight,coming down is an issue when your ears pop, it can be a little bit painful.
I will be on the EK384 on the 9th November from Dubai to Bangkok A380 whose final destination is Hong Kong...

----------


## IceSpike

I'd rather Fly on the 777 in background. If it's not Boeing I'm not going.
Well, I guess I'm not going.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> China's first Airbus A380 airplane ordered by China Southern Airlines arrives at Beijing Capital international Airport in Beijing, capital of China, Oct. 15, 2011. A ceremony was held at the airport soon after the airplane's arrival on Saturday to launch the operation of the Airbus A380, and China Southern Airlines became the first operator of the A380 in the country. (Xinhua/Jing Lei)


Good candidate for the first A380 crash I'd say.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> I'd rather Fly on the 777 in background. If it's not Boeing I'm not going.
> Well, I guess I'm not going.


Don't fly anywhere cold though.

----------


## IceSpike

Air temperature decreases by about 6.5ºC (43.7ºF) per kilometre. The upper limit, or tropopause, of the atmosphere or troposphere is reached at 10–12 kilometres (33,000–40,000 ft.), where the temperature is –56ºC (–70ºF).
It is cold everywhere you Fly!

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Air temperature decreases by about 6.5ºC (43.7ºF) per kilometre. The upper limit, or tropopause, of the atmosphere or troposphere is reached at 1012 kilometres (33,00040,000 ft.), where the temperature is 56ºC (70ºF).
> It is cold everywhere you Fly!


Then don't fly the 777 ... That's what brought that Boeing down!

 :Smile:

----------


## thehighlander959

Absolutely right fuel waxing as its called was the problem, abysmally cold weather on their track from Beijing to London. It was a Boeing 777-200LR very new they lost both engines on the approach to LHR.

If its Boeing I,m not going.....

----------


## harrybarracuda

Explains why Airbus are cleaning up at Boeing's expense.

 :Smile:

----------


## IceSpike

A lack of Fuel dosen't make the Aircraft defective, would you drive anything without fuel?  Zero Level fuel makes all aircraft Gliders, ScAreBus not even close to aircraft construction experience as Boeing. Airbus Airlines are hiring Pilot's with computer and UAV experience. (avianation.com)
No more "FLY BY THE SEAT OF YOUR PANT"S.

----------


## harrybarracuda

The ability to let the fuel freeze is a design defect, no? Especially when it leads to a downed aircraft (which it did).

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> Good candidate for the first A380 crash I'd say.


You beat me to it.

----------


## OhOh

Rolls Royce supplied the Trent engines for the BA 777, the  Trent 800, and also the China Southern Airlines A380, albeit the Trent 900.

RR have also issued a revised operation procedure, along with a modified the fuel-oil heat exchanger (FOHE), which allegedly was the problem with the 777.

The wingy bits built by Boeings outsourced Brazilian suppliers played no part in the crash :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Rolls Royce supplied the Trent engines for the BA 777, the  Trent 800, and also the China Southern Airlines A380, albeit the Trent 900.
> 
> RR have also issued a revised operation procedure, along with a modified the fuel-oil heat exchanger (FOHE), which allegedly was the problem with the 777.
> 
> The wingy bits built by Boeings outsourced Brazilian suppliers played no part in the crash


Like I said, design fault it is then. What others are lurking?

Think uncommanded reverse thrust, cargo door latch, centre tank wiring, the list of identified Boeing design flaws goes on and on.

----------


## thehighlander959

Who said anything about a lack of fuel on the BA 777-200.
1. It wasn,t a lack of fuel there was fuel in the tanks
2. It was fuel waxing where fuel goes from a liquid to a solid state preventing flow due to low temperatures at high level.
3. As I have already said there are issues with both aircraft companies and the reason that Airbus have better sales figures is that their aircraft include much newer technology.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Who said anything about a lack of fuel on the BA 777-200.
> 1. It wasn,t a lack of fuel there was fuel in the tanks
> 2. It was fuel waxing where fuel goes from a liquid to a solid state preventing flow due to low temperatures at high level.
> 3. As I have already said there are issues with both aircraft companies and the reason that Airbus have better sales figures is that their aircraft include much newer technology.


Or perhaps, more accurately, their aircraft are newer designs that don't incorporate the defects and workarounds that still exist in Boeing airframes.

And they're more fuel efficient (especially the A320 NEO).

----------


## happynz

> arrives at Beijing Capital international Airport in Beijing, capital of China, Oct. 15, 2011.





> Xinhua


From the department of redundancy department.   :Smile: 

Loves ya xinhua...

----------


## thehighlander959

The Airbus A-320 Neo will be the best selling short to medium range commercial jet the world has even known. You can forget the Boeing 737-100/200/300/400/500/800 and any other model, they are going to have completely redesign an engine pod that will fit under the wings of a 737 to compete with the A-320Neo.
Certainly nothing brfore 2015 as the 787 Production line will have all the priorities as its already three years late to its first customer ANA.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> The Airbus A-320 Neo will be the best selling short to medium range commercial jet the world has even known. You can forget the Boeing 737-100/200/300/400/500/800 and any other model, they are going to have completely redesign an engine pod that will fit under the wings of a 737 to compete with the A-320Neo.
> Certainly nothing brfore 2015 as the 787 Production line will have all the priorities as its already three years late to its first customer ANA.


Not to mention the amount of money it would cost to develop a new aircraft.

----------


## harrybarracuda

*Boeing 787 Dreamliner makes maiden passenger flight after three-year delay*

 				 					First commercial flight lands on time in Hong Kong, but doubts remain over plane's viability after troubled arrival on market


  	            																		Justin McCurry on board Flight NH7871 guardian.co.uk,			 																		 				            Wednesday 26 October 2011 12.30 BST	        	                   		 	 		 	 	    	<li class="history">     		Article history 

										The All Nippon Airways Boeing 787  Dreamliner lands in Hong Kong after its inaugural commercial flight from  Japan. Photograph: Vincent Yu/AP





After more than three years of delays, Boeing's  long-awaited 787 Dreamliner arrived on schedule on Wednesday, touching  down in Hong Kong at the end of a maiden commercial flight that some  believe will usher in an era of fuel-efficient civil aviation and  unprecedented passenger comfort.
The All Nippon Airways (ANA)  Flight NH7871 left Narita airport in Tokyo shortly after noon, arriving  at its destination four hours and eight minutes later to be greeted by  traditional dance and music, but also doubts about its viability. The  charter flight will return to Japan on Thursday before the plane goes  into proper commercial service on two domestic routes operated by ANA.
The  264 passengers included scores of journalists, Boeing and ANA  executives, amateur aviation enthusiasts, and a Florida couple who paid  tens of thousands of dollars for the privilege of being aboard the first  flight. Boeing officials say the aircraft, which is made of lightweight  materials, is 20% more fuel-efficient than conventional airliners, 30%  cheaper to maintain, and features design improvements for more  comfortable medium- and long-haul flights.
Scott Fancher, the head  of the 787 programme, said the launch of the Dreamliner was a "game  changer" for commercial aviation. "It sets a new standard in the design  of commercial aircraft," he told reporters. "It is truly graceful, with  an interior to complement this. The travelling public will soon get to  experience it. We have designed a plane that will change the direction  of commercial aviation."
Fancher was speaking days after China  Eastern Airlines cancelled an order for 24 Dreamliners, while Air New  Zealand voiced concern over missed delivery deadlines and said it would  seek compensation from Boeing. Design problems and production delays  have left $16bn (£10bn) worth of hardware on Boeing assembly lines. The  firm currently has orders for 821 Dreamliners, a 10th of them from  Japan, which designed and built 35% of the aircraft's structure.
Fancher  refused to comment on the China Eastern Airlines decision, insisting:  "Today is a day to celebrate the Dreamliner's first passenger flight."   He said Boeing was comfortable with its production target of 10 aircraft  a month by 2013, but added: "It is always a challenge to increase  production, and our teams are executing those plans. If we get the plane  out there, people will see its performance and economic benefits and  the orders will come."
ANA's chief executive, Shinichiro Ito,  reiterated his commitment to the Dreamliner, while acknowledging that  the wait for delivery had been "hard at times".
The Japanese  carrier expects to take delivery of 20 aircraft by the end of March 2013  and to launch its first long-haul service, between Tokyo and Frankfurt,  by the end of the year. The first US airline to the fly the 787 will be  United Continental, which plans to fly the plane between Houston and  Auckland, New Zealand, starting in the second half of next year.
Aviation  experts say "hundreds" of 787s would already be in operation had it not  been for a series of production glitches. The resulting delivery delays  may have handed an advantage to Airbus, which is also eschewing big  cuts in flight times to concentrate on lowering the cost of flying.  Other analysts said the aircraft would thrive commercially, despite its  troubled arrival on the market.
"The long delays to the 787  programme have not changed our positive view of the aircraft," said Paul  Sheridan, head of risk advisory at Ascend, a global aviation  consultancy. "Airlines are, if anything, even more keen to get their  hands on the aircraft.  The advanced technology used in the 787 means  that, in spite of the delays, it is still ahead of its time. The size  and range of the aircraft offers airlines the ability to open new  long-haul routes linking a range of cities that would have been  uneconomic with other aircraft types in the market."

----------


## klong toey

Thai might give up one of their LHR slots if they do decide to fly up North not sure they will find much demand though unless they keep prices low. Emirates and other airlines service that route pretty well with a short layover.

----------


## baldrick

is the expensive oztralian still in charge or has he been turfed ?

----------


## Klondyke

*Southwest Passenger Kicked Off Flight for Making Vodka Joke

*A Southwest Airlines passenger was removed from a flight at Sacramento International Airport last week after jokingly asking a flight attendant if the water being handed out was vodka.

According to KTXL, the May 8 flight from Sacramento, California to Austin, Texas by way of Los Angeles had been delayed for several hours because of a maintenance light and the subsequent need to refuel when flight attendants began to pass out water to passengers.

"He said something [like], 'They should be passing out vodka because we’ve been waiting so long,'" passenger Peter Uzelac told KTXL, referring to the unidentified man's witty remark.

Uzelac said the flight attendant, who he described as young, was not amused.

"She came by and was like, 'I don’t think that and I didn’t like your joke.' Then my wife tried to butt-in there and say, 'Look it, we’ve been on this plane for hours.' And she says, 'Well, so have I, so get used to it,'" added Uzelac. "Then all of a sudden, I see her on the telephone up in front."

Uzelac said fellow passengers came to the man's defense after the plane turned back to the gate and several Sacramento County sheriff's deputies came on board to escort him off.

"And people started yelling then. In fact, people stood up. I stood up. People were saying this man didn’t do anything," he told KTXL.

The man wasn't charged with any crime but the incident prompted Uzelac to file a complaint with Southwest against the flight attendant. "If they have this in their records, you know, maybe it will prevent this from happening again," he said.

"I have been flying for decades and I’ve never ever seen anything like this."

Southwest stopped short of apologizing in a statement but said it would share the report with its customer relations team.

"We regret any less-than-positive experience a customer has onboard our aircraft. We welcome over 100 million customers each year and we aim to maintain the comfort of all while '

delivering Southwest hospitality. We will share this report with our Customer Relations Team," the airline said.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/new...oke/ar-AABlHLp

----------


## OhOh

^Best to keep ones head down and make way to all "uniformed citizens", re anything about a certain ultra sensitive country.

----------


## baldrick

^ if he had been in business class he would have gotten vodka

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^ if he had been in business class he would have gotten vodka


It sickens me when they board the great unwashed at the front door, and you are then exposed to a succession of slovenly dressed soap dodgers glaring at you while you sip your first champagne of the morning.

They really should just board them at the back.

----------


## baldrick

> They really should just board them at the back


if their dads had boarded their mums at the back there would be a lot more space on the plane  :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

So despite it being public knowledge that Boeing and the FAA certified a death trap and kept vital information from airlines and pilots, the head of the Fucking Awful Administration decided to blame foreign pilots for the crashes.




> He also suggested throughout the hearing that the inexperience and actions by the flight crews in both accidents might have contributed to the crashes.
> 
> 
> “They never controlled the airspeeds,” he said.
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/15/u...-congress.html


If any foreign airline was in a quandary about choosing Boeing or Airbus, I think that might assist in their decision.

There's a WP article that elaborates on his insults, but I'm not a subscriber so I can't post it.

----------


## Troy

^ Not letting Boeing off the hook for a bad frigging of the rigging, I think there was an element of poor airmanship that contributed to both accidents. How much of a contribution remains to be seen.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^ Not letting Boeing off the hook for a bad frigging of the rigging, I think there was an element of poor airmanship that contributed to both accidents. How much of a contribution remains to be seen.


... which is an attempt at letting Boeing off the hook.

They made an unsafe plane and sneaked it past a weak regulator, end of.

Frankly they should be fined out of existence.

----------


## Troy

^ I don't subscribe to the single source, single blame culture. I think both accidents were avoidable and the second more so, following the additional procedures provided by Boeing. Contributory factors are always of benefit when considering accidents and preventing future ones.

I recall, back in the early 90's, chatting with a Delta Airlines 737 chief line pilot in Atlanta about the challenges of old school captains who have excellent airmanship having to compete against the up and coming talent of "button pushers". He used to fail all the automatics and make them fly the aircraft for at least one of their 4 hour slots just to drill the basics and sort the men from the boys. That type of training is rare with many of the budget airlines of today. At the time I was the developer of the controls for level-d sims on 737-3,4,5 series and knew the primary controls and stab trim inside out. 

Someone who has a stick-shaker who then removes his high lift devices (flaps up) and then engages autopilot, without understanding why the stick shaker has happened, should lose his captaincy and type rating.

That does not mean I think Boeing are innocent. They screwed up big time and were ultimately responsible for the accidents. However, it's time crews spent more time training, like they used to. Bean counters have reduced that training to unsafe limits imho and this is also a contributory factor.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^ I don't subscribe to the single source, single blame culture. I think both accidents were avoidable and the second more so, following the additional procedures provided by Boeing. Contributory factors are always of benefit when considering accidents and preventing future ones.
> 
> I recall, back in the early 90's, chatting with a Delta Airlines 737 chief line pilot in Atlanta about the challenges of old school captains who have excellent airmanship having to compete against the up and coming talent of "button pushers". He used to fail all the automatics and make them fly the aircraft for at least one of their 4 hour slots just to drill the basics and sort the men from the boys. That type of training is rare with many of the budget airlines of today. At the time I was the developer of the controls for level-d sims on 737-3,4,5 series and knew the primary controls and stab trim inside out. 
> 
> Someone who has a stick-shaker who then removes his high lift devices (flaps up) and then engages autopilot, without understanding why the stick shaker has happened, should lose his captaincy and type rating.
> 
> That does not mean I think Boeing are innocent. They screwed up big time and were ultimately responsible for the accidents. However, it's time crews spent more time training, like they used to. Bean counters have reduced that training to unsafe limits imho and this is also a contributory factor.


We have a phrase you might be familiar with called RTFM.

Well in this case, it wasn't in the fucking manual.

Boeing are killers, and the FAA are accomplices.

----------


## OhOh

^An industry which keeps some alive, has been and will always be, above the law due to it's essential " state security status". 

As you have posted. Fear of losing to a foreign competitor influenced the Boeing, FAA and government decision makers. A nod and a wink allowed the delivery of a now proven, ballistic missile.




> I think there was an element of poor airmanship that contributed to both accidents.


The pilots had thousands of hours on 737s. Unfortunately they were not made aware or received any training on the new "improved" 737 MAX deadly systems. "They don't need no stinking, expensive and time consuming training" was in the reasons to buy column 1 A.

If you as a car driver jumped into a shiny new car where the go pedal and stop pedal swapped actions, intermittently, when approaching a red light you may have similar problems. Along with 300 screaming passengers behind you just before you hit the petrol tanker.




> However, it's time crews spent more time training, like they used to.


I believe an app was made available. No mandatory pass mark required prior to taking command when loaded with 250 sheep and 12 rams in 1st. 

Although allegedly the app "help" button linked to to an AI, 24/7 cloud server, requiring subscription, which was planned to be operational in 2021 and included a fully detailed and illustrated 200 page pdf file, will  become available in 4th Q, 2020.
Questions regarding in-flight emergency usage were dismissed, as the pilots, "Don't need to know the "safety feature" exists.

----------


## baldrick

> Unfortunately they were not made aware


you mean the lion air crash was not big enough to get their attention  ?

there can be a fair amount f arrogance in these taxi drivers who might well have said - we don't need no stinkin training on a 737

----------


## klong toey

Wonder how long it will be before insurance companies want to know what plane your flying in.

----------


## lom

> there can be a fair amount f arrogance in these taxi drivers who might well have said - we don't need no stinkin training on a 737


It is their employer who should make sure they got the needed training but in this case both Boing and FAA said that it wasn't needed, basically said that the 737MAX is the same as the old 737.

----------


## knowsitlike

^ from my pilot mate, obviously flies Boeing

----------


## baldrick

^ handshaking and cock touching - very apt

when you shake a mans hand you are touching the same hand he uses to hold his cock

so basically you are touching his cock  :Smile:

----------


## Troy

> you mean the lion air crash was not big enough to get their attention  ?
> 
> there can be a fair amount f arrogance in these taxi drivers who might well have said - we don't need no stinkin training on a 737


They were made aware through service bulletin tbc-19 following the lion air incident. Whether this was made available to all line pilots, I don't know. 

Comparing this fault to pedal swap in a car is ludicrous.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> They were made aware through service bulletin tbc-19 following the lion air incident. Whether this was made available to all line pilots, I don't know. 
> 
> Comparing this fault to pedal swap in a car is ludicrous.


But it seems the Ethiopian Air pilots followed the correct procedure and disabled the electric trim control, but by then the plane was in such a mess because of MCAS that they were unable to manually correct the dive, and in desperation turned it back on.

HoHo is correct in that Boeing considered a few minutes on a fucking iPad to be sufficient training.

The actual problem is that the fucking thing shouldn't even have been turned on in the first place, it was designed for unsafe conditions and they were on a routine flight with no problems.

I hope Boeing take it right up the arse in the courts, and I hope them and FAA people do hard labour.

----------


## Buckaroo Banzai

> It sickens me when they board the great unwashed at the front door, and you are then exposed to a succession of slovenly dressed soap dodgers glaring at you while you sip your first champagne of the morning.
> 
> They really should just board them at the back.


I'd rather sit at the back.  Have you ever heard of a plane backing into a mountain? LOL

----------


## harrybarracuda

> I'd rather sit at the back.  Have you ever heard of a plane backing into a mountain? LOL


I've already used Chubby Brown's joke, and properly credited it rather than attempting to pass it off as my own.

----------


## Buckaroo Banzai

> I've already used Chubby Brown's joke, and properly credited it rather than attempting to pass it off as my own.


You are clearly a better man than me.
Who the heck is Chubby Brown ? and how chubby is he?

----------


## Troy

> But it seems the Ethiopian Air pilots followed the correct procedure and disabled the electric trim control, but by then the plane was in such a mess because of MCAS that they were unable to manually correct the dive, and in desperation turned it back on.
> 
> HoHo is correct in that Boeing considered a few minutes on a fucking iPad to be sufficient training.
> 
> The actual problem is that the fucking thing shouldn't even have been turned on in the first place, it was designed for unsafe conditions and they were on a routine flight with no problems.
> 
> I hope Boeing take it right up the arse in the courts, and I hope them and FAA people do hard labour.


I think you may have lost the plot on the Ethiopian accident. They had a stall warning via stick-shaker shortly after take-off. The Ethiopian AIB confirmed this in their prelim report. The correct procedure was to check configuration, power and lack of stall, finding why the stall warning occurred ( IAS disagree) and carrying out that procedure. An IAS disagree is a nasty problem that has led to crashes in the past if it isn't spotted. This has to be a contributory factor. Training for this is carried out in a sim not on an ipad. 

MCAS is nasty and contributed to both accidents but was not the only factor. One thing I did hate was all the warnings going off at once though. It makes it hard to think straight and makes you learn where the CBs are.

----------


## Troy

> ^An industry which keeps some alive, has been and will always be, above the law due to it's essential " state security status". 
> 
> As you have posted. Fear of losing to a foreign competitor influenced the Boeing, FAA and government decision makers. A nod and a wink allowed the delivery of a now proven, ballistic missile.
> 
> 
> 
> The pilots had thousands of hours on 737s. Unfortunately they were not made aware or received any training on the new "improved" 737 MAX deadly systems. "They don't need no stinking, expensive and time consuming training" was in the reasons to buy column 1 A.
> 
> If you as a car driver jumped into a shiny new car where the go pedal and stop pedal swapped actions, intermittently, when approaching a red light you may have similar problems. Along with 300 screaming passengers behind you just before you hit the petrol tanker.
> ...


The captain had 1417 hours on the 737 and 103 on the max. The FO had 207 hours on 737 and 53 on max. That is not the thousands of hours experience you are giving them credit for.

----------


## baldrick

with all this computer control , the problem I have is the cnut holding the st^dick can feel that he is not flying and cannot move the machine into a flying position

if you cannot feel you are unstable you should not even be driving a pram

----------


## harrybarracuda

> I think you may have lost the plot on the Ethiopian accident. They had a stall warning via stick-shaker shortly after take-off. The Ethiopian AIB confirmed this in their prelim report. The correct procedure was to check configuration, power and lack of stall, finding why the stall warning occurred ( IAS disagree) and carrying out that procedure. An IAS disagree is a nasty problem that has led to crashes in the past if it isn't spotted. This has to be a contributory factor. Training for this is carried out in a sim not on an ipad. 
> 
> MCAS is nasty and contributed to both accidents but was not the only factor. One thing I did hate was all the warnings going off at once though. It makes it hard to think straight and makes you learn where the CBs are.


They correctly observed that the stall warning was false, but they also twice called anti-ice (!) and L alpha vane warnings. The fucking plane was going mental. And then Boeing's shit software told it to start pointing the plane at the ground.

It's an imbecilic design and the fatal errors stayed there because it was rushed through certification without being properly checked, thanks to a corrupt FAA and a money-oriented Boeing.

HANG THEM.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> with all this computer control , the problem I have is the cnut holding the st^dick can feel that he is not flying and cannot move the machine into a flying position
> 
> if you cannot feel you are unstable you should not even be driving a pram


A lot of pilots complain that all this automation means that pilots aren't properly prepared when they have to get a plane out of trouble by hand.

The Russian A310 that crashed on the way to HK a few years back was because the autopilot "partially disconnected". Admittedly the pilots were Russian, and they had not trained on the aircraft properly, plus they let some kid go in the cockpit and play with the controls, but logic suggests the simple options should be - on  or - off.

Maybe they should stop letting non-pilots write flight control software until they understand what the fuck it means to pilots.

----------


## Neverna

> Maybe they should stop letting non-pilots write flight control software until they understand what the fuck it means to pilots.


A lad I was at school with went to university and got a degree in maths. He then got a job teaching pilots to fly (or so he said). He'd never flown a plane himself.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> A lad I was at school with went to university and got a degree in maths. He then got a job teaching pilots to fly (or so he said). He'd never flown a plane himself.


He might have got a job teaching pilots math-related subjects, but that would be about it. Probably used that line to chat up bints.

----------


## Buckaroo Banzai

A great video that explains the relationship between Boeing and Airbus .  and why older "types" of aircraft are expanded and modernised rather than creating new types.

----------


## Neverna

> He might have got a job teaching pilots math-related subjects, but that would be about it.


That's probably what it was.

----------


## Troy

> A lot of pilots complain that all this automation means that pilots aren't properly prepared when they have to get a plane out of trouble by hand.
> 
> The Russian A310 that crashed on the way to HK a few years back was because the autopilot "partially disconnected". Admittedly the pilots were Russian, and they had not trained on the aircraft properly, plus they let some kid go in the cockpit and play with the controls, but logic suggests the simple options should be - on  or - off.
> 
> Maybe they should stop letting non-pilots write flight control software until they understand what the fuck it means to pilots.


Aeroflot 593. Autopilot is two channel, pitch and roll, that can be disengaged independently. That means you can be in autopilot in pitch for (say) altitude hold whilst flying manually in roll. The kid disengaged the roll, putting it in manual and no-one noticed. The autopilot was fully engaged in one channel and fully disengaged in the other. 

The flight control engineers I know can fly an aircraft far better than the pilots I know can design control systems.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> The flight control engineers I know can fly an aircraft far better than the pilots I know can design control systems.


Maybe they should get a job flying the Max then. I'm sure they'd be head of the queue.

----------


## Troy

> They correctly observed that the stall warning was false, but they also twice called anti-ice (!) and L alpha vane warnings. The fucking plane was going mental. And then Boeing's shit software told it to start pointing the plane at the ground.
> 
> It's an imbecilic design and the fatal errors stayed there because it was rushed through certification without being properly checked, thanks to a corrupt FAA and a money-oriented Boeing.
> 
> HANG THEM.


That left alpha vane was a clue to the trained eye (AOA overheat and pointing to bad side for IAS). It did not mean the plane was going mental. I didn't see anywhere in the prelim report  a call out for IAS disagree or a reason for stall warning being mentioned.

The max should have been grounded and a fix is required for MCAS but at the same time I have deep concerns about pilot training especially having captain and fo together with such limited experience. It's one reason why I only fly with the big carriers ...

----------


## Klondyke

Wondering how the recent crushes - and the mess of the clever software - have influenced eagerness of young people to become a pilot

----------


## harrybarracuda

> The max should have been grounded and a fix is required for MCAS but at the same time I have deep concerns about pilot training


Yeah, me too.

 ::chitown:: 




> Boeing has reportedly admitted for the first time that there was a flaw in its 737 MAX flight simulators.
> 
> Boeing has made corrections to the 737 MAX simulator software and has provided additional information to device operators to ensure that the simulator experience is representative across different flight conditions, the manufacturer told the AFP news agency in a statement.
> 
> _Boeing acknowledged that the flight simulators were incapable of reproducing the kind of flight conditions that occurred at the time of the Ethiopian Airlines crash in March or the Lion Air crash in October.
> _
> The planes have been grounded worldwide since the two crashes, which killed 346 people. Both accidents were blamed on a defect in the anti-stall system.
> 
> Boeing did not say when it became aware of the simulator problem.
> ...

----------


## OhOh

> The captain had 1417 hours on the 737 and 103 on the max. The FO had 207 hours on 737 and 53 on max. That is not the thousands of hours experience you are giving them credit for.


1417+ 103 + 207 + 53 = 1,600 hrs for two pilots. Add on the other two pilots from crash number 2 with similar numbers = *3,200* hours. 

Looks like a four digit number i.e. in the "*thousands"*, to me. 

Add all the other 737 MAX pilots and I suspect it runs into the hundreds of  thousands of hours "experience" flying, allegedly the same plane they've all been flying for decades. 

The MAX clearly has issues, which the 4 dead pilots had not been trained to handle. Causing, so far, only a few hundred deaths solely for financial gain.

I suspect all had at some stage of their careers, flight simulator training, on all the 737s they flew. Which is how most passengers understand and expect pilots to be trained.

Rather than initially being scapegoated, for financial gain, by the plane's manufacturer., the FAA and some commentators on other sites, with distinctly racist views.

----------


## RamblinWriter

What exactly were the racist views?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> What exactly were the racist views?


I think he's referring to the Boeing CEO who absurdly tried to pass the blame for his fucking deathtrap of an aircraft onto the johnny foreigner pilots.

----------


## misskit

*AirAsia to start direct flights from Chiang Mai to Shenzhen in June*AirAsia is expanding its growing Chiang Mai International Airport hub with the airline announcing that it is beginning direct flights to Shenzen, China starting from June 15.


The CNX-SZX flights will run four times weekly although it’s not clear at this stage which days as the flights are not in AirAsia’s booking system at the time of writing. At least one flight will depart Saturday night with the return flight leaving Shenzhen early Sunday morning.


FD592 will leave Chiang Mai at 11:10 p.m. and arrive in Shenzhen at 3 a.m., with the return flight, FD593, leaving Shenzhen at 4 a.m. arriving in Chiang Mai at 6 a.m.


The new Chiang Mai service is in place of an existing Chiang Rai – Shenzhen service which has been reduced from seven flights a week to three flights a week.


The new service is the first new route from AirAsia ex-CNX since it announced flights to Da Nang in April.

https://chiangmaione.com/airasia-to-...n-in-june-3640

----------


## OhOh

> What exactly were the racist views?


Little black/brown men did not have the intelligence to fly aeroplanes and should stick to cleaning the toilets. 

Made by many on many public forums.

----------


## SeventhSoul

This geezer did a good job, considering.

----------


## OhOh

> The max should have been grounded and a fix is  required for MCAS but at the same time I have deep concerns about pilot  training especially having captain and fo together with such limited  experience. It's one reason why I only fly with the big carriers ...


I'm not sure if you can answer this, but you do appear knowledgable . :Smile: 

There  is an article on the benefits of Flight Simulator Training (FST) on the  Leeham News site. The site appears to cover and comment on news  technical, financial,  operations and Certification/legal issues of the airline industry.

This link below is to one on FST on the 737 MAX

*Pontifications: Mandate sim time for MAX return to the skies*

https://leehamnews.com/2019/05/20/po...es/#more-30114

It has many comments, of which this is one;

"Steinar Norheim May 20, 2019
 
_One hypotesis why Boeing is resisting sim training;
_
_Sim training experiencing the normal function of the MCAS v.2 is no problem.
_
_Sim training experiencing inoperative MCAS v.2 would reveal a stick  force gradient going negative above say 10 degrees AoA. This might be a  problem for Boeing. If FAA accepts such an aircraft behaviour, the  question remain if the pilots will accept such an aircraft behaviour?
_
_Sim training of a runaway trim putting the trim to say 2 to 2.5 units  out of trim ND on a sim correctly mimicking the manual trim wheel  forces would reveal the pilots inability to get the aircraft back in  trim using the afforementioned manual trim wheel. 

This would make it  clear for everybody that the non normal check list regarding runaway  trim are completely inadequate and would open a whole can of worms as to  which check list would need to be rewritten and the extent of  additional pilot training, not to mention the possibility of significant  hardware changes to the aircraft. 

This would be completely unacceptable  for Boeing as this would make any timeframe for reentering service for  the Max in less than one or two years unrealistic.



_Thanks.

----------


## Troy

^ Personally, I believe the level-d and level-c Sims should be fully representative of the aircraft. I have read reports that the manual trim forces are not representative, but I'm not sure if that's only in the extreme flight regimes. I am also not sure how it is modelled now, following the change from hydraulics to electric motors for noise levels and cleanliness. The Sims for the older classics had hydraulic motors with 1500psi load so could provide substantial forces to the trim wheels. The 900psi jack's on the rudder could give 300lbs before stalling. The trim wheel position makes it pretty difficult to apply those sort of forces by hand.

The usual AOA flight regime is well under 10 Deg. I can't think normal training would require such high AOA, even with low speed approaches. Abnormal attitude training would be one way.

The old Sims were modelled wrt a Boeing math model and malfunctions can and were introduced depending on customer and accident. The Niki Lauda accident with reverse thrust in flight was modelled in Gatwick within 48 hours of the accident findings. I am not so happy that Boeing supply the complete package nowadays.

Level d Sims enable zero flight hours on-type training and if supported by video can be logged as actual flight hours. They must have full fidelity of all control, engine and flight characteristics and malfunctions must be allowed to be added as and when required, with the aid of the sim manufacturer. They are expensive but they are also necessary.

I've moved on from 737s so can't comment on the current Sims. I was also involved with the 707 , which had the same trim wheel. These are not fbw aircraft, they are real flying machines. They were both fun to fly but you always had to be ahead of the game to fly them well. The stab, out of trim, was obvious and you got it back in trim quickly. Having said that, the dc-10 / md-11 was far more demanding to fly.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> The Niki Lauda accident with reverse thrust in flight was modelled in Gatwick within 48 hours of the accident findings.


Another example of Boeing being given too much latitude by the FAA and resulting in needless deaths.

----------


## Troy

^ Indeed, and one that should have grounded 737, 747 as well as the 767, with fadec fitted. This system did not provide feedback of engine pla to the throttle position in A/T. That, is the throttle didn't move back to idle when the bucket opened so not immediately obvious what was happening. It was made worse by the reverser light coming on intermittently beforehand and the crew suspected moisture causing a false warning.

Yet another time when Boeing's should have been grounded.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^ Indeed, and one that should have grounded 737, 747 as well as the 767, with fadec fitted. This system did not provide feedback of engine pla to the throttle position in A/T. That, is the throttle didn't move back to idle when the bucket opened so not immediately obvious what was happening. It was made worse by the reverser light coming on intermittently beforehand and the crew suspected moisture causing a false warning.
> 
> Yet another time when Boeing's should have been grounded.


No - yet another time when Boeing shouldn't have effectively been able to certify themselves.

----------


## Troy

The CAA, DGAC, L-B, JCAB and the other world aviation authorities also certified the 767 fadec. The testing was as per the flight regimes of the time. Lessons learned would be a more objective assessment in my view 

You appear to be very anti Boeing Harry...are you boycotting their aircraft when travelling?

Airbus also had to redesign their aircraft following the fadec problem with failure to backdrive the throttles.

----------


## Jack meoff

How about filtering out posters unable to post up a simple vid, but have all the answers about air crashes.

----------


## Jack meoff

> backdrive the throttles.


Wasn't that before it carried paying passengers

----------


## harrybarracuda

> The CAA, DGAC, L-B, JCAB and the other world aviation authorities also certified the 767 fadec. The testing was as per the flight regimes of the time. Lessons learned would be a more objective assessment in my view 
> 
> You appear to be very anti Boeing Harry...are you boycotting their aircraft when travelling?
> 
> Airbus also had to redesign their aircraft following the fadec problem with failure to backdrive the throttles.


The other regulators foolishly trusted the FAA. Not any more, since the 737 MAX deathtrap has shown that they are no longer to be trusted. The facts concerning the Lauda Air crash show that the FAA has been cosying up to Boeing for far too long.

And no, I won't fly on a 737 MAX - ever. It's an accident waiting to happen again. The other planes have been fixed, mostly through hard lessons.

The Lauda Air crash was yet another example of Boeing putting profits before people.




> When the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) of the United States asked Boeing to do tests activating the thrust reverser in flight, _the FAA had allowed Boeing to establish the tests of the thrust reverser._ _Boeing had insisted that a deployment was not possible in flight._ In 1982 Boeing established a test where the aircraft was slowed to 250 knots, and the test pilots then used the thrust reverser. The control of the aircraft had not been jeopardized. The FAA accepted the results of the test.
> 
> 
> The Lauda aircraft was traveling at a high speed when the thrust reversers deployed, causing the pilots to lose control of the aircraft. James R. Chiles, author of Inviting Disaster, said, "the point here is not that a thorough test would have told the pilots Thomas J. Welch and Josef Thumer [sic] what to do. A thrust reverser deploying in flight might not have been survivable, anyway. But _a thorough test would have informed the FAA and Boeing that thrust reversers deploying in midair was such a dangerous occurrence that Boeing needed to install a positive lock that would prevent such an event._" As a result of their findings during the investigation process of Lauda Flight 004, additional safety features such as mechanical positive locks were mandated to prevent thrust reverser deployment in flight.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauda_Air_Flight_004


Added: I'm a bit baffled that you say Airbus "redesigned their aircraft". I assume that you're talking about the A400M crash which was caused by Airbus engineers erroneously wiping data before the flight - a procedural error, after which Airbus carried out a full systems review.

----------


## Troy

No, I wasn't referring to A400m; accident had nothing to do with reverse thrust and turbo prop reverses blade pitch so totally different design.

I was referring to A320 series aircraft having to redesign for multiple failures due to non mechanical link between throttles and engine. I also thought the throttle position had to be back driven to show current engine input demand. I thought original fadec didn't have that backdrive but I don't see a mention of that in the report.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> No, I wasn't referring to A400m; accident had nothing to do with reverse thrust and turbo prop reverses blade pitch so totally different design.
> 
> I was referring to A320 series aircraft having to redesign for multiple failures due to non mechanical link between throttles and engine. I also thought the throttle position had to be back driven to show current engine input demand. I thought original fadec didn't have that backdrive but I don't see a mention of that in the report.


You said:




> _Airbus also had to redesign their aircraft following the fadec problem_


Do you have a link?

----------


## Troy

^ No, not to the original modifications made following the Lauda Air accident, although the following alludes to them in the first paragraph:

https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/app/t...deployment.pdf

At the time of the Lauda accident (ie back in the early 90's) there was a lot of talk about the different philosophy between Airbus and Boeing regards cockpit throttles and engine input. Boeing opted to drive throttles to show engine demand and allow the pilot to override the throttle position vi a clutch mechanism. This means that if the engine goes into reverse thrust the throttle will backdrive to idle. On an Airbus there is no such backdrive. The different philosophy means that with Boeing the pilot has overall control and with Airbus the aircraft has that control. 

I thought (wrongly) that Airbus changed to backdriving the throttle to give pilots indication of actual engine position. They did not, instead they added additional safety features to ensure reverse thrust in flight cannot occur. As you can see from the above link, this safety was not enough.

Personally I always preferred the Boeing philosophy.

----------


## OhOh

> I won't fly on a 737 MAX - ever. It's an accident waiting to happen again. The other planes have been fixed, mostly through hard lessons.


There appears to be unusable controls on the 737 NG. Grandfathered of course to the 737 MAX.

*Boeing 737 MAX Crash Reveals A Severe Problem With Older Boeing 737 NGs*

The fleet of Boeing 737 MAX planes will stay out on the ground longer  than anticipated. Boeing promised a new software package to correct the severe problems  with its Maneuver Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS). The  delivery was supposed to be ready in April. A month later it has still  not arrived at the Federal Aviation Agency where it will take at least a  month to certify it. The FAA will not be the only one to decide when  the plane can come back into the flight line. Other country's agencies  will do their own independent review and will likely take their time.

 The 737 MAX incident also revealed a problem with older generations  of the 737 type of plane that is only now coming into light.




showed that the recovery procedures Boeing provided for the case  of a severe mistrim of the plane is not sufficient to bring the plane  back under control. The root cause of that inconvenient fact does not  lie with the 737 MAX but with its predecessor, the Boeing 737 New  Generation or NG.

 This was known in pilot circles for some time but will only now receive wider public attention:
The Boeing 737 Max's return to commercial airline service is  reportedly being further delayed by the Federal Aviation  Administration. US government officials told The Wall Street Journal's Andy Pasztor that *the  FAA is evaluating the emergency procedures for not only the Max but  also the older generations of the 737 including the [once] hot-selling  Boeing 737 NG.
*
 According to the officials, the broadened evaluation will take a look  at how pilots of all 737 variant are instructed to respond to emergency  situations.

Here is a detailed explanation why the FAA is now looking into the pilot training for older 737 types.
 The 737 NG (-600/-700/-800/-900) was the third generation derivative  of the 737 and followed the 737 Original (-100/-200) and Classic  (−300/-400/-500) series. The first NG flew in 1997. Some 7,000 were  build and most of them are still flying.

 Two technical modifications that turned out to be a problem during  the recent incidents occurred during the redesign of the 737 Classic  into the New Generation series.

In the NG series a new Flight Management Computer (FMC) was added  to the plane. (The FMC helps the pilots to plan and manage the flight.  It includes data about airports and navigation points. It differs from  the two Flight Control Computers in that it has no control over physical  elements of the plane.)

 The FMC on the NG version has two inpout/output units each with a  small screen and a larger keyboard below it. They are next to the knees  of the pilot and the copilot  They are located on the central pedestal  between the pilots right below the vertical instrument panel (see pic  below). The lengthy FMCs did not fit on the original central pedestal.  The trim wheels on each side, used to manually trim the airplane in its  longitudinal axis or pitch, were in the way. Boeing's 'solution' to the  problem was to make the manual trim wheels smaller.




737 NG cockpit with FMC panels and with smaller trim wheels (black with a white stripe)

bigge

r

737 Original-200 cockpit with larger trim wheels (black with a white stripe)

bigger

Continues here:

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/0...-ngs.html#more

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^ No, not to the original modifications made following the Lauda Air accident, although the following alludes to them in the first paragraph:
> 
> https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/app/t...deployment.pdf
> 
> At the time of the Lauda accident (ie back in the early 90's) there was a lot of talk about the different philosophy between Airbus and Boeing regards cockpit throttles and engine input. Boeing opted to drive throttles to show engine demand and allow the pilot to override the throttle position vi a clutch mechanism. This means that if the engine goes into reverse thrust the throttle will backdrive to idle. On an Airbus there is no such backdrive. The different philosophy means that with Boeing the pilot has overall control and with Airbus the aircraft has that control. 
> 
> I thought (wrongly) that Airbus changed to backdriving the throttle to give pilots indication of actual engine position. They did not, instead they added additional safety features to ensure reverse thrust in flight cannot occur. As you can see from the above link, this safety was not enough.
> 
> Personally I always preferred the Boeing philosophy.


The point of my link was that Boeing, as with the MAX, have too much authority to just tell the FAA everything is going to be fine, and the FAA does fuck all to check.

That has to stop.

Boeing should not have the authority to do its own testing and come up with its own results. it has proven that it can't be trusted.

----------


## OhOh

*Emirates head cautious on quick return to service for Boeing 737 MAX*_"SEOUL (Reuters) - Emirates airline President Tim Clark said on Sunday  that global regulators should act in a coordinated way to return the  Boeing 737 MAX to service and warned it could take six months to get the  grounded jet back into operation. 

_
_The forecast from the head of  Emirates, whose sister airline flydubai is a major MAX customer, is more  cautious than some industry predictions but echoes concerns at a global  airlines meeting in Seoul about a piecemeal response by regulators." 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-a...KCN1T301Z?il=0

_Not much point in "getting them into the air" if you can't land them anywhere.

----------


## OhOh

*Airbus urges airlines to pressure Boeing over subsidy row*

_"SEOUL (Reuters) - Airbus has written to airline leaders to appeal for  their backing in a trade dispute with rival Boeing, warning of higher  aircraft prices and passenger fares if the United States and European  Union descend into a tariff war.
__The appeal was issued in a letter  to several airline bosses meeting in Seoul where the International Air  Transport Association (IATA) has warned of the impact of broader global  trade tensions, a person familiar with the issuance of the letter told  Reuters.
_
_The United States and Europe have been locked in a 15-year spat over mutual claims of illegal aid to plane giants._
_U.S.  President Donald Trump threatened last month to impose tariffs on $11  billion of European goods including planes and their parts, prompting  the European Union to propose a list of $20 billion worth of U.S.  imports it could hit in retaliation.
_
_"If the tariffs are applied,  the effects would include greatly increased costs to U.S. and European  airlines, aerospace suppliers and manufacturers," Airbus sales chief  Christian Scherer said in the text of the letter seen by Reuters._
_It asked airlines to "urge Boeing to enter into the negotiations proposed by the EU and Airbus"._
_Airbus and Boeing had no immediate comment._
_It  is the first time either company has sought to directly involve the  airline industry in the dispute, which is the largest ever handled by  the World Trade Organization. U.S. carrier Delta Air Lines has said it  opposes the U.S. tariff threats, saying they harm U.S. interests.
_
_Speaking  to reporters in Seoul, Delta CEO Ed Bastian said: "We're a large Boeing  customer, we're a large Airbus customer. Tariffs ... would inflate the  cost of investment in the aircraft, obviously we're going to be  concerned."_
_Delegates at the IATA talks said airlines would weigh  carefully whether to step directly into the aircraft dispute which has  laid bare intense competition for plane orders and which has cost the  warring parties tens of millions of dollars._

_But IATA, which  groups 290 airlines representing 82 percent of global traffic, is  expected to express growing concerns about a worsening pattern of global  trade tensions which has already depressed cargo business and threatens  some passenger demand."

https://news.yahoo.com/airbus-urges-airlines-pressure-boeing-004220876.html

_*
Global airlines slash profit forecast 21% on protectionism fears*

_
"__SEOUL: Global airlines slashed a key industry profit forecast by 21%  on Sunday amid concerns over an expanding trade war and higher oil  prices.
_
_The International Air Transport Association, which represents about  290 carriers or more than 80% of global air traffic, said the industry  is expected to post a US$28 billion profit in 2019, down from a December  forecast of US$35.5 billion.
_
_“Airlines will still turn a profit this year, but there is no easy  money to be made,” IATA Director General Alexandre de Juniac said at the  group’s annual meeting in Seoul. “Creeping protectionist or  isolationist political agendas are on the rise,” he added.
_
_Airline profits help detect trends for consumer confidence and global trade, economists say._


_Global stock markets fell on Friday after US President Donald Trump  on Friday threatened tariffs on Mexican goods, adding to fears that  escalating trade wars will push the US and other major economies into  recession.
_
_Airlines had reported US$30 billion in annual profits in 2018, but  conditions in the air cargo market – an extra source of revenue for  carriers – have weakened substantially.
_
_“You see that international trade is now at a zero growth rate, so  there is an immediate impact on our cargo business,” de Juniac told  Reuters TV.
_
_IATA voiced concerns that trade tensions that have forced several  carriers to ground air freighters could spill into the passenger market._
_Passenger capacity growth, which reached 6.9 percent in 2019, is  forecast to slow to 4.7% this year, with average fares flat following a  2.1% decline in 2018."

https://asianewstoday.com/blog/globa...tionism-fears/
_

----------


## OhOh

My recent loss of a checked baggage bag has been completely solved by a very efficient  AA Lost Baggage investigator. 

It flew first class, well plastered in it's own cardboard box just behind the front wheel on the lower deck. No in-flight services as it was an unaccompanied minor (anyone who cannot provide ID substantiating their age is). Collected at the gate in Tokyo, Bangkok and Trat airports. 

Upon my arrival at Trat airport I was personally taken to locked office by a fit Bangkok Airway's baggage counsellor, where it awaited to be reunited me. When I opened the box to check it the bugger pushed a sharp staple into my finger drawing blood, just to let me know it was back. The experienced counsellor, obviously trained for such eventualities, had a clean tissue to dab my bloodied finger and watering eyes.

Now back up on a wardrobe top after a thorough emptying of contents and washing. Next week it's off to the dump as all it's zips are broken. I'm off to counselling at the village clinic due to my loss of a faithful friend and travel companion. It's been a close companion in many hot hotel rooms.

There is a chance my old but randy rucksack and my wife's virgin blue four wheeled roll-on may produce a litter of bum-bags. One may be suitable to raise to a hand luggage sized, replacement.

----------


## OhOh

*Boeing delayed fix of defective 737 MAX warning light for three years: U.S. lawmakers*_"__SEATTLE (Reuters) - Boeing Co learned that a cockpit warning light on  its 737 MAX jetliner was defective in 2017 but decided to defer fixing  it until 2020, U.S. lawmakers said on Friday
. 
__The defective  warning light alerts pilots when two sensors that measure the angle  between the airflow and the wing  disagree. Faulty “angle of attack”  data is suspected of playing a role in two deadly crashes involving  Boeing’s best-selling 737 MAX in Indonesia in October and in Ethiopia in  March. 

_
_Those crashes, which killed 346 people, have triggered  investigations by aviation regulators and U.S. lawmakers and left  Chicago-based Boeing facing one of the biggest crises in its more than  100-year history. 

_
_Boeing decided in November 2017 to  defer a software update to correct the so-called AOA Disagree alert  defect until 2020, three years after discovering the flaw, U.S.  Congressmen Peter DeFazio and Rick Larsen said in a press release on  Friday. Boeing only accelerated this schedule after the Lion Air  accident in Indonesia, they added.

_
_Boeing spokesman Gordon  Johndroe said by email that a company safety review found the absence of  the AOA Disagree alert did not adversely impact airplane safety or  operation. 

_
_“Based on the safety review, the update was scheduled  for the MAX 10 entry into service in 2020,” Johndroe said. “We fell  short in the implementation of the AoA Disagree alert and are taking  steps to address these issues so they do not occur again.” 

_
_Boeing  has said it discovered the problem in 2017, soon after it began  delivering its top-selling 737 MAX aircraft to customers. But it did not  inform the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) about the defect  until after the Lion Air crash more than one year later, the lawmakers  said. 

_
_The House of Representatives Committee on Transportation  and Infrastructure sent letters to Boeing, supplier United Technologies  Corp and the FAA requesting further details on the AoA Disagree alert,  the lawmakers said. 

_
_The letter was the second such records  request sent by the committee to Boeing and the FAA related to its  investigation into the MAX aircraft."_

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...KCN1T8284?il=0


With full knowledge of the FAA, no doubt.

----------


## harrybarracuda

It seems Boeing are doing their level best with the families of the dead to avoid the whole 737 Max Deathtrap being dragged through the courts.

One hopes the ambulance chasers will adjust their demands accordingly knowing they have Boeing over a barrel.

----------


## misskit

*THAI to fly direct to Sendai*

BANGKOK, 14 June 2019(NNT) - Thai Airways International plans to resume direct flights between Bangkok and Sendai, from this year’s wintertime and expects up to 80% of Thai travelers to fly with them.


THAI President Sumet Damrongchaitham, has confirmed that THAI has signed an agreement with Sendai in Japan to resume direct flights between Bangkok and Sendai for a three-year period, offering three round-trip flights per week beginning on October 29. THAI currently provides chartered flights between Bangkok and Sendai. Up to 80% of Thai travelers to Sendai and 20% of Japanese travelers to Bangkok are expected to fly them. The anticipated number of air travelers would increase two or three times over the years.


In promotional round-trip flights, the air fare begins at 13,420 baht for one passenger alone and 12,820 baht for each member of a group of four passengers. 


In addition, the online trading of goods via the THAI website and Application is expected to begin in the third quarter of this year. Meanwhile, THAI Kitchen will be hired to make meals for the passengers of many leading airlines.



National News Bureau Of Thailand

----------


## Klondyke

*It's Airbus 13,000,000,000 - Boeing 0, On The First Day Of The Paris Air Show*

As the jarring truth about Boeing's "cost-cutting above all" philosophy involving the company's deadly, ill-fated 737 MAX  (or whatever the company's ill-fated plane may be called soon) receives an ever-wider public appreciation, the company is finding it increasingly difficult to do business as usual.

Take the Paris Air Show, traditionally the venue where the world's largest aircraft makers lock in deals worth tens of billions of dollars. Well, the first day of the 2019 edition of this boondoggle couldn't have gone any worse for Boeing, and alternatively it couldn't have been better for Airbus, which locked in $13 billion in orders for new jets.

Boeing's tally? $0.

Among those lining up to order Europe's iconic (if subsidized) airlines included Air Lease Corp., the giant US leasing company, which agreed to buy planes worth $11 billion before customary discounts, including the new A321XLR. Virgin Atlantic also bought eight A330 wide-bodies with options for six more.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-...paris-air-show

----------


## OhOh

*
Airbus and Boeing aircraft deals at Paris Airshow*

_"AIRBUS

__* Air Lease Corp signs letter of intent for 50  A220-300s, 27 A321XLRs and 23 A321neos worth an estimated $11 billion at  list prices.  
_
_* Virgin Atlantic orders 14 A330neos worth $4.1 billion at list prices, and takes out an option for six more. 
_
_* Lebanons Middle East Airlines orders four A321XLRs, estimated to be worth more than $500 million at list prices. 
_
_*  Philippines budget airline Cebu Air orders 16 A330neos, 10 A321XLRs and  five A320neos, worth about $6 billion in total at list prices.  
_
_*  Saudi Arabian Airlines orders a further A320neo family aircraft worth  an estimated $3.3 billion at list prices, and takes out options for as  many as 35 more.  
_
_* Malaysias AirAsia Group converts 253 A320neo orders to the larger A321neo. Financial terms not disclosed 
_
*BOEING 
*
_* Korean Air commits to buying 20 787 Dreamliners worth $6.3 billion at list prices. 
_
_* Air Lease Corp commits to buying 5 more 787-9, worth about $1.5 billion at list prices. 
_
_*  GECAS exercises purchase rights for 10 737-800 Boeing Converted  Freighters worth about $1.1 billion at list prices, and adds 15 more  purchase rights.  '

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...KCN1TJ1CJ?il=0
_

*As 18/6/19.*

Airbus *US$ 29,900,000*, (without the 235 A320neo to A321 upgrade costs to Air Asia.)

Boeing *US$ 8,900,000*

----------


## harrybarracuda

Willie Walsh has signed an LoI for 200 Deathtraps. The discount must be sizable.

Emirates are expected to go big on Airbus but they like to announce their deals at the Dubai Air Show.

----------


## Norton

No question Boeing is in full damage limitation marketing mode as the bad press news builds daily.

"Sully' Sullenberger says he struggled to recover Boeing 737 MAX in flight simulation"

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/06/19/p...rio/index.html

----------


## docmartin

Ban
Our
Engineering
It’s
No
Good

----------


## docmartin

Airlines 
Instinctively
Reject
Boeing’s
Utter
Shite

----------


## Troy

> Willie Walsh has signed an LoI for 200 Deathtraps. The discount must be sizable.


That could be a very shrewd move indeed....

No question the 737 Max will be flying again, just a matter of when.

----------


## lom

Malfunctioning
Crashing
Aircraft
System

----------


## OhOh

Airbus breaking boing boing lockouts at several airlines.

_"__American Airlines, the worlds largest airline by passenger traffic,  said 30 of its A321XLR order were conversions of existing A321neo orders  to the new version.  
__It costs a little bit more for these  aircraft ... (but they offer)... greater utility for us in the long  run, American Airlines President Robert Isom said on a podcast,  highlighting opportunities for new routes, higher efficiency and less  complexity among its fleet. 
_
_
Airbus also said it had reached a  preliminary deal to sell 11 A321neos to Taiwans China Airlines,  snatching the renewal of the airlines medium-haul fleet from Boeing. "

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-delta-air-tech/delta-air-not-expecting-flight-cancellations-as-result-of-tech-issue-idUSKCN1TK36C?il=0


Boing Boing also announce a "Walmart"  venture, logistics and warehousing. No chance of killing "passengers" only robots.

<em>

_

----------


## Klondyke

*American Airlines Orders 50 Airbus A321XLRs
*
JUNE 19, 2019    BY BEN (LUCKY)    29

Well here comes an A321XLR order that shouldnt be a surprise to anyone.

American orders 50 A321XLRs

American Airlines has just placed an order for 50 Airbus A321XLR aircraft. This deal includes the conversion of 30 A321neo orders (they have a total of 100 A321neos on order), as well as 20 additional A321XLR orders.

The A321XLR is Airbus new long range single aisle plane, which will be able to operate up to 4,700nm nonstop once it enters service in 2023.

When will American take delivery of A321XLRs?
American will take delivery of their A321XLRs over the following timeframe, which I consider to be pretty quick:

8 in 2023
22 in 2024
20 in 2025

Where will American fly A321XLRs?
American Airlines has desperately been in need of a plane like this. American is in the process of retiring their 757s and 767s, leaving them without a plane to operate long haul flights to secondary markets. The A321XLR fills this niche perfectly.

Rendering of American A321XLR


American Airlines is pretty explicit in saying that their primary goal with the A321XLR is to operate the aircraft from US East Coast airports to medium-sized European cities.

So you can expect that the A321XLRs will primarily be based at New York JFK and Philadelphia, and from there they can fly virtually anywhere in Europe. Id expect them to be flown to markets like Budapest, Dublin, Edinburgh, Manchester, Prague, etc.

However, Id note that an order for 50 planes is huge, and suggests to me that the planes will be used for many more routes than just East Coast to Europe. I could also see some A321XLRs being based in Miami, and being used for flights to South America.

Heres a map showing the planes range from New York:



Heres a map showing the planes range from Philadelphia:



And heres a map showing the planes range from Miami:



How will American configure their A321XLRs?
Earlier I wrote a post with details on what the A321XLR means for passengers.

While we dont have exact details yet on how American will configure A321XLRs, American President Robert Isom did drop some hints in an interview today:

Density will not be the focus for these planes
American wants a business class with fully flat seats and direct aisle access
American wants to have premium economy on these planes
Thats the hope as of now, though were still several years off from these planes being delivered, and Im not sure what Isom said has fully gone through Americans bean counting department. 😉

If American does in fact go with direct aisle access in business class, perhaps their business class will be similar to the first class product they have on their A321Ts, which are used on premium transcontinental flights.

Americans A321T first class

So it sounds like Americans A321XLRs wont simply have the same B/E Aerospace Diamond seats that they currently have in business class on their A321Ts and 757s.

Americans 757 business class


Bottom line
The A321XLR is a plane that American desperately needs, so Im happy to see they placed this order so they could secure early slots.

Like I said, this order has been rumored for a while, so it doesnt come as a surprise. Though I guess in some way I am a bit surprised that American was actually proactive enough to place the order, since I feel like their strategy lately has just been to do as little as possible while hoping for the best.

What do you make of Americans A321XLR order?

https://onemileatatime.com/american-...a321xlr-order/

----------


## Klondyke

UK still trusting in Max?

*Airbus says did not get chance to bid for the MAX order IAG gave to Boeing

*Airbus confirmed on Thursday that it had not been offered a chance to bid for a surprise aircraft order announced by British Airways owner IAG at the Paris Airshow, involving 200 of the grounded 737 MAX.

Airbus said that it nevertheless wanted a chance to bid for business at that airline company.

The company's sales chief, Christian Scherer, made the comment at a news conference after announcing a total of 363 orders and commitments so far at the Paris Airshow, including 226 for the newly launched A321XLR. Airbus is in negotiations for further orders, he added.

Earlier this week, Boeing won a major vote of confidence at the Paris Airshow as British Airways owner IAG signed a letter of intent to buy 200 of its 737 MAX aircraft that have been grounded since March after two deadly crashes.

IAG had earlier declined to comment on details of the negotiations.

https://www.yenisafak.com/en/news/ai...boeing-3483726

----------


## Troy

No airline wants a monopoly manufacturer. Always best to keep a sensible split and have them competing.

----------


## OhOh

> And here’s a map showing the plane’s range from Miami:


It's a pity  they didn't show the flights from the west coast. It appears it might be able  to fly to Japan, Korea and Chine from SEA.*


Paris Air-show Airplane orders:

Day 1*



*Day 2*

_"Saudi Arabian Airlines ordered 30 Airbus A320neo-family aircraft and  took 35 options. The firm order includes 15 A321XLRs. The flag carrier  already had an order for 35 A320neos.
_
_International  Airlines Group (IAG) signed a letter of intent to order 200 Boeing 737  Max aircraft. Any firm order would be split between the 737 Max 8 and  the Max 10, although exact numbers were not disclosed. IAG anticipates  deploying the aircraft at several of the group’s airlines including  Vueling and LEVEL.

IAG  ordered 14 A321XLRs. Eight of the long-range narrowbodies are for  Iberia and six are for Aer Lingus. The Irish carrier will use them for  transatlantic flights.

Delta  Air Lines ordered five additional A220-100 aircraft, bringing its order  total for the A220 to 95 units, including 45 A220-100s and 50  A220-300s. The airline is the first to select the new increased maximum  takeoff weight option for its entire fleet from 2020.

Nordic  Aviation Capital inked a letter of intent to purchase 35 firm  ATR72-600s, with options for a further 35 and purchase rights for  another 35. Deliveries of the initial 35 aircraft will begin in 2020 and  run up to 2025.
_
_Cebu  Pacific signed a memorandum of understanding (MOU) for 16 Airbus  A330neos, 10 A321XLRs and five A320neos. The A330neo aircraft will be a  higher-capacity version of the A330-900, with 460 seats in a  single-class configuration. 
_
_Korean  Air committed to purchasing 10 new Boeing 787-10s and 10 additional  787-9s. The deal includes a commitment to lease 10 787-10s from Air  Lease, quadrupling the airline’s 787 fleet from a current 10 units to 40  of the type.
_
_Spanish  carrier Binter ordered two additional Embraer E195-E2s, confirming  purchase rights agreed in 2018. Binter will receive its first 132-seat  E195-E2 jet in the second half of 2019, becoming the first European  customer of the E2’s largest model.
_
_Fuji  Dream Airlines ordered two E175 aircraft. The Japanese carrier already  operates three E170s and 11 E175s. The first of its new, 84-seat E175s  will arrive in 2019.
_
_Air Lease committed to purchase five 787-9s. The lessor has 17 787s in its portfolio at present, Airfinance Journal’s Fleet Tracker shows.
_
_Atlantic Airways signed a purchase agreement for two A320neo aircraft. It will select the engine later._ 
_AirAsia  converted 253 orders for the A320neo to the larger A321neo version.  Following the upsizing, AirAsia’s backlog with Airbus includes 353  A321neos. To date, the airline has taken delivery of 224 A320-family  aircraft."

_*Day 3*_



_*Day 4*_



https://leehamnews.com/2019/06/18/pa...ts/#more-30470
_

----------


## OhOh

*IAG’s super MAX deal likely means super discounts, services*



_"June 20, 2019, © Leeham News: 

Boeing gets a Letter of  Intent for 200 737 MAXes from International Airlines Group (British  Airways, et al), announced Tuesday at the Paris Air Show.

__Christian Scherer, meet John Leahy.
_
_Scherer is Leahy’s successor, and like Scherer, Leahy was blindsided  in 1996 when American Airlines signed a 20-year exclusive procurement  deal with Boeing.
_
_Then, Delta and Continental airlines did the same.
_
_Leahy complained bitterly that he didn’t know of American’s deal and had had no chance to bid._

*Terms and conditions*

_Terms and conditions are confidential, of course, and in the case of  IAG, the LOI means T&Cs may not be anything more at this point than a  broad outline.
_
_But in the American/Delta/Continental cases, “Most Favored Nation” pricing was guaranteed._
_This means nobody else gets a lower price and if a customer does, Boeing had to send a check to the MFN customers.
_
_It’s likely IAG will have an MFN clause.
_
_Then there’s the price.
_
_It’s common knowledge that key campaigns draw discounts of 50%-60% from list prices. LNA is aware of some deals in which discounts run as high as 65%.
_
_You can bet IAG is at least in this ballpark.
_
_No doubt, there is a component from Boeing Global Services for parts  and MRO. “One Boeing” has aggressively wrapped BGS into deals, too.
_
_While the above is speculative, it’s based on previous known deals."

https://leehamnews.com/2019/06/20/ia...es/#more-30505
_

----------


## Klondyke

*Sullenberger's experience in a 737 MAX simulator made him see how pilots ran out of time

*Washington (CNN)The pilot who orchestrated the dramatic plane landing in the Hudson River 10 years ago told a congressional panel Wednesday that he can see how crews would have struggled during the recent Boeing 737 MAX crashes after he spent time in a simulator running recreations of the doomed flights.

Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger's testimony before the House Transportation Committee comes as Boeing is working to get the planes, grounded worldwide since March, certified by the Federal Aviation Administration and back in the air.

"I recently experienced all these warnings in a 737 MAX flight simulator during recreations of the accident flights. Even knowing what was going to happen, I could see how crews could have run out of time before they could have solved the problems. Prior to these accidents, I think it is unlikely that any US airline pilots were confronted with this scenario in simulator training," Sullenberger said.

Sullenberger, whose "Miracle on the Hudson" landing in 2009 saved the lives of all 155 people on board, told the panel that it's important pilots don't have "inadvertent traps."

"We must make sure that everyone who occupies a pilot seat is fully armed with the information, knowledge, training, skill and judgment to be able to be the absolute master of the aircraft and all its component systems and of the situations simultaneously and continuously throughout the flight," he said.
Pilots need physical, firsthand experience to be prepared for emergencies, Sullenberger said.

"Reading about it on an iPad is not even close to sufficient," he said.

*Plane scrutinized at hearing
*
The Boeing 737 MAX has come under intense criticism after two planes of that model recently crashed in Ethiopia and Indonesia, killing a total of 346 people. The plane's automatic safety feature known as MCAS, which pushes the nose of the aircraft down if it senses an imminent stall, is believed to have played a role.

Following the crash of the Ethiopian plane in March, 737 MAX jets were grounded and the company has been working to come up with a fix to the MCAS. A time frame for the 737 MAX's return to service has not yet been announced.

At Wednesday's hearing, some aviation subcommittee members questioned the qualifications of foreign pilots and the standards of the International Civil Aviation Organization, the United Nations' aviation agency. But Sullenberger and Daniel Carey, the president of the Allied Pilots Association, which represents American Airlines pilots, recommended additional training requirements for 737 MAX pilots.

A source with knowledge of the process has told CNN the FAA certification flight of the Boeing 737 MAX is expected to take place in the next two weeks. The certification flight is the next step to getting the planes back in the air, but not the final step.

The source says it will take four to six weeks to validate the findings of the flight once it's complete. If the changes to the 737 MAX are approved, US airlines are expected to fly the aircraft again after September, the source said.

Despite ongoing debate about the 737 MAX's design, Boeing received a vote of confidence Tuesday as International Airlines Group announced plans to buy 200 of the planes.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/06/19/p...rio/index.html

----------


## OhOh

> The certification flight is the next step to getting the planes back in the air, but not the final step.
> 
> The source says it will take four to six weeks to validate the findings of the flight once it's complete. If the changes to the 737 MAX are approved, US airlines are expected to fly the aircraft again after September, the source said.


It appears that the FAA is suggesting one 777MAX flight, in an untypically prepared plane, piloted by one/two pre-trained for one specific emergency scenario pilots, both pre-aware of the coming incident, will satisfy the global pilots, airlines and passengers.

I suspect not.

----------


## Troy

^ Are you saying they are going to set up a test flight with an AOA sensor malfunction? That's quite a novelty.

More importantly will pilots have to do their initial training on a level-d 737 max. If so, will airlines be refunded the cost as this wasn't part of the deal. Will subsequent re-quals be allowed on 737 ngs or will they also need to be on a Max? 

Personally, I'm surprised training isn't specific to type + engine type. There are always quirks between engine fits for the same aircraft type.

----------


## OhOh

> ^ Are you saying they are going to set up a test flight with an AOA sensor malfunction?


I don't know the details but I presume somehow they will put the pilots and aircraft in the following situation.

Untrained on 737 MAX 

1. A nose down attitude at the height of the two "crashes" became unstable, 
2. Accelerate to the confirmed, outside it's designed speed envelope speed,
3. Make a time allowance for previous 737 training/years of 737 pilots experience of methods of recovery to be tried, multiple times,
4.  Make a time allowance for finding the on board manual,
5.  Make a time allowance for finding the procedure page, as approved in the onboard manuals available to the airlines, at the time of the design fault caused crash,
6. Make a time allowance for the pilots to understand the new procedures and agree to make them,
7. Ensure the pilot turning the tail 'flap" wheel is a typical female pilot,
8. Make a time allowance for the pilots to try the new procedure multiple times.
9. Calculate the height loss for the "recovery".

Pilots who have passed the 737 MAX Conversion Simulator Time Consuming and Lack of Availability to Earn Airlines Revenue  more than 3 months ago, are experienced, male, Boeing, test pilots and have carried out multiple in air practices on the procedure 

1. A nose down attitude at the height of the two "crashes" became unstable 
2. Accelerate to the confirmed, outside it's designed speed envelope speed,
3.  Make a time allowance for the pilots to use the new procedure multiple times.
4. Calculate the height loss for the "recovery".

Some what different scenarios, me thinks.

 :Smile: 




> If so, will airlines be refunded the cost as this wasn't part of the deal.


That and loss of pilot availability ............. Or do pilots foot the bill and lose income when being trained these days?





> Personally, I'm surprised training isn't specific to  type + engine type. There are always quirks between engine fits for the  same aircraft type.


I believe there are apps "made available" for the pilots to "keep up to date" in their "unpaid off duty hours', on all aircraft models they may be rostered to command or swapped onto, "for operational reasons".

----------


## Troy

Well, no way will they exceed design speeds.

No matter what happens, pilots will need to train on dedicated 737 max simulators.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Sounds like pilots are not on board (excuse the pun).




> More than 400 pilots have joined a class action against American plane manufacturer Boeing, seeking damages in the millions over what they allege was the company's "unprecedented cover-up" of the "known design flaws" of the latest edition of its top-selling jet, the 737 MAX.


https://www.xxx.xxx.xx/news/2019-06-...7-max/11238282

----------


## OhOh

*Looking at MAX beyond the grounding*Another authoritative article regards in the Boing problem.

"The FAA acting administrator says he expects the MAX will return to  service before the end of the year, but this could mean anywhere from  September through December"

https://leehamnews.com/2019/06/17/looking-at-max-beyond-the-grounding/

Many commentators suggest it shouldn't be certified to fly even with the more complex version 2 of the anti-stall system, as the software driven anti-stall system is required, even during the 90% flight cruise period. Due to the inherent engine position causing the nose up attitude. If the trim tabs in the tail are left unsupervised.

Which some say is not certifiable by FAA and probably other certifying agencies.

----------


## Klondyke

*Air Canada reviewing how crew left sleeping passenger on plane

*Passenger says she was 'full on panicking' after waking on an empty aircraft in Toronto
The Associated Press · Posted: Jun 23, 2019

Air Canada said Sunday it's looking into how crew members could have disembarked from a plane without noticing a sleeping passenger who was left behind.

The airline was responding to an incident involving a woman who described waking up "all alone" on a "cold, dark" aircraft after a flight to Toronto earlier this month.

"I think I'm having a bad dream bc like seriously how is this happening!!?!" Tiffani Adams recounted in a June 19 Facebook post sent by her friend, Deanna Noel-Dale.

The airline confirmed the incident took place, but declined to comment on its disembarking procedures or how the passenger may have been overlooked.

"We are still reviewing this matter so we have no additional details to share, but we have followed up with the customer and remain in contact with her," Air Canada told the Associated Press.
Passenger was 'full on panicking'

Adams wrote that after she woke up, she called Noel-Dale to try to explain what happened, but her phone died and she couldn't charge it because power to the plane was off. She said she was "full on panicking" by the time she found the "walky-talky thingys in the cockpit," which also didn't work.

After no one saw the "sos signals" she made by shining a flashlight out the window, she unbolted a cabin door. Facing a steep drop to the tarmac, she leaned out of the aircraft and called over a ground crew employee, who got her out.

The passenger wrote that Air Canada personnel asked if she was OK and whether she would like a limo and hotel, but she declined the offer. She said airline representatives apologized and said they would investigate.

"I haven't got much sleep since the [recurring] night terrors and waking up anxious and afraid I'm alone locked up someplace dark," she wrote.

The AP attempted to reach Adams through Noel-Dale's Facebook account but had not received a response by late Sunday morning.

Air Canada said in a Facebook response to the post that it was surprised to hear the story and "very concerned," asking Adams to send a private message with her flight details.

"We'll take a look into it," the airline wrote.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...nger-1.5186858

----------


## OhOh

^But what about her checked bags?

----------


## Klondyke

^just a cabin bag...

----------


## Klondyke

Update:
*‘This is a nightmare’: A woman fell asleep mid-flight and woke up trapped in a dark plane alone

*When Tiffani O’Brien opened her eyes, she was still in the same place she fell asleep — strapped into her seat aboard an Air Canada flight bound for Toronto.

Only, something wasn’t right. The entire plane was empty, O’Brien wrote in a Facebook post shared last week by her friend on her behalf. She was “freezing cold” and sitting in “complete darkness.” It was around midnight and her flight, which left Quebec City that evening, had landed hours earlier.

“I thought, ‘This is a nightmare,’” O’Brien, who is from St. Thomas, Ontario, told CTV News in an interview that aired over the weekend. “'This is not happening. I’m having a bad dream. Wake up, Tiffani.'”

But O’Brien says what she experienced was very real, and the Canadian airline is now looking into how a sleeping passenger could have been left behind, the Associated Press reported. Air Canada did not respond to a request for comment late Sunday, but confirmed to the AP that the incident did happen.

“We are still reviewing this matter so we have no additional details to share, but we have followed up with the customer and remain in contact with her,” the airline said.

Since going through the ordeal earlier this month, O’Brien said she’s suffered from insomnia and “reoccurring night terrors,” according to the Facebook post, which her friend, Deanna Noel-Dale, shared to Air Canada’s official page on Wednesday. The post identified the passenger as “Tiffani Adams,” but in a message to The Washington Post, Noel-Dale confirmed that her friend’s legal name is O’Brien.

Noel-Dale added that she and O’Brien were declining to comment further on the incident, citing advice from a lawyer.

In the post, O’Brien wrote that she was heading home by herself on June 9 after having “the most incredible time” with Noel-Dale during a weekend trip to Quebec City, located about 160 miles northeast of Montreal. The flight to Toronto Pearson International Airport was only about a quarter full, so O’Brien scored an entire row of seats to herself. O’Brien told CTV News she was seated in 32A, near the middle of the plane. 
“I got super comfy reading my book,” she wrote on Facebook, and fell asleep less than halfway through the roughly 90-minute trip.

When she woke up, her nightmare began.

Alone and surrounded by “pitch black” darkness, O’Brien wrote that she initially thought she was dreaming. But reality soon dawned on her: she was trapped on an empty plane.

Grabbing her phone, O’Brien exchanged frantic text messages with Noel-Dale, who had been waiting for her friend to check in after landing, CTV News reported.

“I just woke up alone in plane,” O’Brien texted Noel-Dale at 11:45 p.m., according to messages published by CTV News.

“What?!!!” Noel-Dale responded. “You should almost be home!!!! Nobody woke you up?!!!!”

In another text, Noel-Dale asked if O’Brien could get off the plane. No, O’Brien replied, the door was shut.

O’Brien tried to FaceTime Noel-Dale, but her phone died mid-call. Unable to find any working outlets because the plane’s power had been shut off, O’Brien said she started to freak out.

“[S]ince I can’t charge my phone to call for help I’m full on panicking [because] I want off this nightmare asap,” she wrote.

She made her way to the cockpit where she tried to radio for help, but that didn’t work either.

Then, she found a flashlight.

“I was so happy,” she told CTV News. “That was like the best moment ever.”

Wielding the flashlight, O’Brien started making “sos signals” out of the plane’s windows, hoping the light would catch someone’s attention. When that didn’t seem to work, she turned her attention to the main cabin door, “determined to unlock the door and save myself,” she wrote.

When she got the door open, O’Brien said she could see the lights of the airport in the distance, and realized the plane had been parked overnight far from the terminal. With a 40- to 50-foot drop between her and the tarmac, O’Brien wrote that she desperately searched for a rope and thought about using the flight attendants’ seat belts, but found that they were too short. Instead, she resorted to “hanging out the door reflecting the flashlight off the side of the plane.”

Meanwhile, Noel-Dale told CTV News that after losing contact with O’Brien, she called the airport.

“I said ‘My friend is trapped on the airplane, in the dark, locked in and she just woke up. I need someone to go and get her,’” Noel-Dale said.

On Facebook, O’Brien said she was rescued by someone driving a “luggage cart.” Once she got to the airport, a representative from Air Canada asked O’Brien if she was okay and offered her a limo and a hotel, which she wrote that she declined. Following the incident, O’Brien wrote that Air Canada called her twice to “apologize for my inconvenience” and said the company would investigate. 
Toronto Pearson International Airport did not respond to a request for comment late Sunday. In a statement to CBS News, an airport spokesperson said, “We are aware of this passenger’s story and we can certainly empathize with the concern she must have felt.”

“I’m asking for help,” O’Brien wrote in the Facebook post. “I would really like to find out if anyone had been through this too [because] 10 days later and I am still a wreck.”

In fact, there have been several instances of sleeping passengers getting left behind on planes in past years. In 2010, a British law professor flying on Air Canada’s regional discount carrier, Air Canada Jazz, was awakened by a mechanic after the plane was taken to a hangar at Vancouver International Airport, ABC News reported. That same year, a Michigan woman who fell asleep during a flight from Dulles International Airport to Philadelphia was trapped for more than three hours after landing, according to the Philadelphia Inquirer. In 2013, a Louisiana man also found himself stuck in a dark, locked plane at Houston’s Bush Intercontinental Airport after he slept through landing, ABC News reported.

O’Brien wrote that she continues to be affected by her experience and now struggles to sleep, often “waking up anxious and afraid” that she is alone and trapped “some place dark."

“It’s just a sheer sense of helplessness when you feel like you’re locked on this aircraft,” O’Brien told CTV News, “and you have no connection to the outside world.”

https://www.msn.com/en-za/lifestyle/...v9v?li=BBqg6Q6

----------


## harrybarracuda

*Boeing 777 hits airport bridge causing flight cancellations*



The left wing of the Kuwait Airways plane crunched into the structure in the Southern French airport just before 6pm.
It meant a subsequent return flight was immediately cancelled and there were reports of delays in the airport.

The airline said on Twitter that all passengers and cabin crew were safely removed from the aircraft and no one was injured.

Kuwait Airways explained they are currently arranging accommodation for the people left stranded as well as scheduling replacement flights

They are cooperating with the relevant French authorities in case of any possible investigation, they added on the social media platform.

Just after 9pm, Claire on Twitter claimed British Airways customers were facing delays.

There are a hundred passengers waiting for an update with no staff or info at Nice airport, she wrote.

Easy Jet received similar complaints. Ols wrote: Horrific service at Nice airport @easyJet hundreds of people and only three staff on the whole check in.

Flight two hours and a half delayed already.

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/787688/nice-airport-kuwait-airways-wind-bridge-collision-cancelled?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&ut  m_campaign=Feed%3A+daily-star-latest-news+%28Daily+Star+%3A%3A+News+Feed%29

----------


## Klondyke

*Boeing left the aircraft in the car park
*


Boeing has deployed several 737 MAX aircraft in the parking spaces of its employees. Reports about it Business Insider.

It clarifies that such a step has become part of the company's plan for the management of tangible assets. Placing an aircraft in the parking lot costs the corporation $ 2,000 per month.

https://lenta.ru/news/2019/06/25/boeing/

----------


## baldrick

> in the parking spaces of its employees


it is likely to have less employess soon , so why not use the parking spaces  :Smile:

----------


## OhOh

> Placing an aircraft in the parking lot costs the corporation $ 2,000 per month.


How much revenue is it costing the airlines per month/per plane?

I am presuming every flight earns a pretty US$ 1,000s profit.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> How much revenue is it costing the airlines per month/per plane?
> 
> I am presuming every flight earns a pretty US$ 1,000s profit.


That's OK, Boeing will be paying one way or the other.

----------


## Klondyke

> it is likely to have less employess soon , so why not use the parking spaces


Why not to convert the planes as mobile homes, instead of trailers?

----------


## David48atTD

> Sounds like pilots are not on board (excuse the pun).
> 
> https://www.xxx.xxx.xx/news/2019-06-...7-max/11238282


Here is the new link for Harry's post above ... *http://tinyurl.com/y5f5ojc9
*

----------


## David48atTD

Boeing 737 MAX return to service faces further delays over new FAA concern


The FAA is expected to spend weeks reviewing test data before deciding whether the aircraft is safe to return to the skies

The US Federal Aviation Administration has identified a  new potential risk that Boeing must address on its grounded 737 MAX  jets before the aircraft can return to service.

*Key points:*
It remains unclear whether the issue with the 737 MAX was due to a software or microprocessor faultA hardware fix would further delay the aircraft's return to serviceThe 737 MAX fleet was grounded earlier this year after two fatal crashes in which 346 people were killed 

 The issue was discovered during a simulator test last  week and it is not yet clear whether it can be addressed with a software  upgrade or will require a more complex hardware fix, sources with  knowledge of the matter told Reuters.

The FAA did not elaborate on  the latest setback for Boeing, which has been working to get its  best-selling airplane back in the air following a worldwide grounding in  March, ordered in the wake of two deadly crashes within five months.

The  new issue means Boeing will not conduct a certification test flight  until July 8 in a best-case scenario, the sources said, but one had  cautioned it could face further delays beyond that.

The FAA is  expected to spend at least two to three weeks reviewing the results  before deciding whether to return the plane to service.

Here

----------


## Klondyke

*U.S. regulator cites new flaw on grounded Boeing 737 MAX*

WASHINGTON/SEATTLE (Reuters) - The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration has identified a new risk that Boeing Co must address on its 737 MAX before the grounded jet can return to service, the agency said on Wednesday.

The risk was discovered during a simulator test last week and it is not yet clear if the issue can be addressed with a software upgrade or will require a more complex hardware fix, sources with knowledge of the matter told Reuters.

The FAA did not elaborate on the latest setback for Boeing, which has been working to get its best-selling airplane back in the air following a worldwide grounding in March in the wake of two deadly crashes within five months.

The new issue means Boeing will not conduct a certification test flight until July 8 in a best-case scenario, the sources said, but one source cautioned it could face further delays beyond that. The FAA will spend at least two to three weeks reviewing the results before deciding whether to return the plane to service, the people said.

Last month, FAA representatives told members of the aviation industry that approval of the 737 MAX jets could happen as early as late June.

The world’s largest planemaker has been working on the upgrade for a stall-prevention system known as MCAS since a Lion Air crash in Indonesia in October, when pilots were believed to have lost a tug of war with software that repeatedly pushed the nose down.

A second deadly crash in March in Ethiopia also involved MCAS. The two accidents killed a total of 346 people.

“On the most recent issue, the FAA’s process is designed to discover and highlight potential risks. The FAA recently found a potential risk that Boeing must mitigate,” the FAA said in the statement emailed to Reuters. “The FAA will lift the aircraft’s prohibition order when we deem it is safe to do so.”

Boeing said in a securities filing late on Wednesday that the FAA has asked it to address through software changes a specific flight condition not covered in the company’s already-unveiled software changes.

The U.S. planemaker also said it agreed with the FAA’s decision and request, and was working on a fix to address the problem.

“Boeing will not offer the 737 MAX for certification by the FAA until we have satisfied all requirements for certification of the MAX and its safe return to service,” Boeing wrote in the filing.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-e...-idUSKCN1TR30J

----------


## harrybarracuda

> The FAA did not elaborate on  the latest setback for Boeing


Yeha, and why the fuck not? Are people not entitled to know how dangerous this Rube Goldberg deathtrap is?

----------


## OhOh

*Boeing's Software Fix For The 737 MAX Problem Overwhelms The Plane's Computer*


_"Two crashes of the plane type, which cost the lives of 346 people, revealed a significant problem not only with the messed up Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS).
_
_ It then turned out that the manual trim wheels which Boeing advised to use to counter MCAS are impossible to move when needed. Moon of Alabama detailed the problem back in May and last week the Wall Street Journal confirmed the issue. This also affects the older Boeing 737 NG

In a flight simulator last week, F.A.A. pilots tested erroneous  activations of anti-stall software that pushes down the nose of the Max,  two people with knowledge of the matter said. The software, known as  MCAS, was involved in two crashes that killed 346 people._ _In at least one instance, an F.A.A. pilot was unable to quickly and  easily follow Boeing’s emergency procedures to regain control of the  plane. The pilot rated that failure as catastrophic, meaning it could  lead to the loss of an aircraft midflight, the people said. 
...
The issue discovered last week is linked to the data-processing speed of a specific flight control computer chip, according to the two people with knowledge of the matter. In the test, the F.A.A. pilot encountered delays in executing a crucial step required to stabilize an aircraft."
_
That conclusion from a FAA pilot, doing a prescribed flight, having knowledge of the systems "quirks" and safely in a "turn it off at any time", simulator.

Not for your average Tom, Dick or 'arry whilst heading for death at 5,000 altitude, nose down and accelerating.

One commentator in the MOA article clarifies the problem:

"_ But the concept of taking control away from the pilot to cover for an  unstable hardware design is just simply out of this world, from the  management land of greed and stupidity."

_https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/0...uter.html#more

More technical opinions here:

https://www.satcom.guru/2018/11/737-...n-command.html

https://www.satcom.guru/2018/11/737-mcas-failure-is-option.htm

and more business opinions here;

https://leehamnews.com/2019/06/28/bj...re/#more-30568

----------


## Klondyke

Just watching on Al Jazeera:

*Flight 990: What Really Happened?*
A re-examination of the investigation into the fatal 1999 EgyptAir crash that concluded a co-pilot was to blame.
02 Jul 2019

When is an air crash a planned suicide mission and when is it the result of a disastrous technical fault?

On the morning of October 31, 1999, the EgyptAir Flight 990, a Boeing 767, left John F Kennedy (JFK) International Airport for Cairo.

Soon after take-off, it plunged into the Atlantic Ocean, killing all 217 passengers. Nearly two decades on, the question that still has not been convincingly answered is 'why'?.

The initial US investigation blamed the co-pilot and concluded the crash was "as a result of the relief first officer's flight control inputs", adding that the reason for his actions "was not determined".

But today the evidence behind this conclusion looks far from convincing, as this Al Jazeera World investigation exposes.

In 1999, the Egyptian government handed over the task of investigating the crash to the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) in the United States, a Washington-based organisation charged with investigating transportation accidents, including air crashes.

Philip Riddell, an aerospace engineer and pilot with more than 50 years of experience, told Al Jazeera that the NTSB investigation was problematic.

"I thought the NTSB report was flawed in a number of areas. They kind of jumped on the conclusion that the handling pilot was mishandling the aircraft with a finger pointed at suicide," Riddell said, adding that the agency may have "neglected to look at other relevant evidence that was found".

The crash happened at a time of growing apprehension in the US about so-called "terrorism" and the appointed US investigation firmly concluded the co-pilot was responsible for bringing the plane down.

That conclusion was based on audio on the Cockpit Voice Recorder, where the relief First Officer, Gameel al-Batouti, is heard calling on God as he tries to correct the 767 from its sudden sharp descent. The NTSB investigation interpreted this as the final prayer of a man intent on suicide and mass murder, rather than a man begging for divine intervention to save the aircraft.

While the NTSB refused to speak to Al Jazeera, its chairman at the time of the accident, Jim Hall, agreed to be interviewed for this documentary.

"We were asked to take this investigation to begin with. We did it … and a good job was done by the investigators. The NTSB has a worldwide reputation for factual investigations and where we have problems with staff in terms of workload, we just extend the time for the investigation," Hall said.

Egypt issued a furious rebuttal of the US report and the FBI and other US agencies also later cast doubt on its conclusions. Over the years these doubts persisted - but it was only some 14 years later, in 2014, when the US aviation authorities demanded a technical change to all Boeing 767s, that these suspicions ramped up.

Al Jazeera's Neil Cairns conducted an in-depth examination of inconsistencies within the NTSB report -  starting with evidence of technical problems reported with the same Boeing 767 plane that had emerged the day before the crash. 

In 2000, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) issued airworthiness directives for urgent relevant checks to be made on all 767s. It took another 14 years for the FAA to issue fresh directives which pointed to a technical problem with this model of aircraft.

After the 2014 directives, Boeing made changes to its own systems.

"Consequently Boeing actually bought out a completely new system to replace the bellcrank system," Riddell explained.

American accident investigator Pat Diggins makes a key point about the influence of manufacturers on federal agencies.

"The manufacturer, the larger it is, the larger the arms and the reaches are to it. I mean … if you look at Boeing, look at how far-reaching their capabilities are to … They have more government solicitors in Washington DC that help them get their products approved. The majority of their company sells to the United States government," said Diggins.

The Boeing 737 Max 8 jet crashes in Jakarta in 2018 and Addis Ababa in 2019 have resulted in investigations into this model of aircraft. Boeing has already conceded mistakes were made in launching this model. But there have been no such concessions from anyone regarding Flight 990, and after nearly 20 years, there is no resolution for the bereaved families, not least that of First Officer Gameel al-Batouti.

https://www.aljazeera.com/programmes...080143751.html

----------


## baldrick

^ from the flight recorders





> Flight recorders
> 
> The Flight Data Recorder from EgyptAir Flight 990 after being recovered and tagged by the FBI (Source:NTSB)
> The cockpit voice recorder (CVR) recorded the captain excusing himself to go to the lavatory, followed thirty seconds later by the first officer saying in Egyptian Arabic "Tawkalt ala Allah," which can be translated as "I rely on God." A minute later, the autopilot was disengaged, immediately followed by the first officer again saying, "I rely on God." Three seconds later, the throttles for both engines were reduced to idle, and both elevators were moved three degrees nose down. The first officer repeated "I rely on God" seven more times before the captain suddenly asked repeatedly, "What's happening, what's happening?" The flight data recorder reflected that the elevators then moved into a split condition, with the left elevator up and the right elevator down, a condition which is expected to result when the two control columns are subjected to at least 50 pounds (23 kg) of opposing force.[1] At this point, both engines were shut down by moving the start levers from run to cutoff. The captain asked, "What is this? What is this? Did you shut the engines?" The captain is then recorded as saying "get away in the engines" (this is the literal translation that appears in the NTSB transcript), followed by "shut the engines". The first officer replies "It's shut". The final recorded words are the captain repeatedly stating, "Pull with me" but the FDR data indicated that the elevator surfaces remained in a split condition (with the left surface commanding nose up and the right surface commanding nose down) until the FDR and CVR stopped recording. There were no other aircraft in the area. There was no indication that an explosion occurred on board. The engines operated normally for the entire flight until they were shut down. From the presence of a western debris field about 1,200 feet (370 m) from the eastern debris field, the NTSB concluded that the left engine and some small pieces of wreckage separated from the aircraft before water impact.

----------


## Klondyke

^That's elaborated in the above document of Al Jazeera, the different understanding of illegible voices. 




> Philip Riddell, an aerospace engineer and pilot with more than 50 years of experience, told Al Jazeera that the NTSB investigation was problematic.
> 
> "I thought the NTSB report was flawed in a number of areas. They kind of jumped on the conclusion that the handling pilot was mishandling the aircraft with a finger pointed at suicide," Riddell said, adding that the agency may have "neglected to look at other relevant evidence that was found".
> 
> The crash happened at a time of growing apprehension in the US about so-called "terrorism" and the appointed US investigation firmly concluded the co-pilot was responsible for bringing the plane down.
> 
> That conclusion was based on audio on the Cockpit Voice Recorder, where the relief First Officer, Gameel al-Batouti, is heard calling on God as he tries to correct the 767 from its sudden sharp descent. The NTSB investigation interpreted this as the final prayer of a man intent on suicide and mass murder, rather than a man begging for divine intervention to save the aircraft.





> Egypt issued a furious rebuttal of the US report and the FBI and other US agencies also later cast doubt on its conclusions. Over the years these doubts persisted - but it was only some 14 years later, in 2014, when the US aviation authorities demanded a technical change to all Boeing 767s, that these suspicions ramped up.
> 
> Al Jazeera's Neil Cairns conducted an in-depth examination of inconsistencies within the NTSB report -  starting with evidence of technical problems reported with the same Boeing 767 plane that had emerged the day before the crash.





> In 2000, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) issued airworthiness directives for urgent relevant checks to be made on all 767s. It took another 14 years for the FAA to issue fresh directives which pointed to a technical problem with this model of aircraft.
> 
> After the 2014 directives, Boeing made changes to its own systems.
> 
> "Consequently Boeing actually bought out a completely new system to replace the bellcrank system,"


Not unusual investigation by NTSB, something similar happened at "investigation" of Lockerbee crash - also re-investigated by Al-Jazeera. 

The investigation is not technical but political...

----------


## Troy

^ Quite a leap to think anything needs investigating for a B-767, which is quite different to a 737 max.

Jackanory from Al J is my gut feeling.

----------


## harrybarracuda

It's bullshit. He was about to be disgraced in front of his peers and pointed the plane at the ground.

The cockpit transcript has the captain saying "Did you shut down the engines" and the data recorder showed the suicidal twat pointing the plane at the sea.

Only a fucking idiot would swallow the gyppos attempt at face (and money) saving.

----------


## harrybarracuda

I guess the cushy job and all the attention disappeared along with her reason for living.

(Original story below).




> An international lawyer who called air crew money-grabbing c**ts and smoked on a flight has died days after being released from prison. Simone Burns, 50, is believed to have killed herself after her body was discovered at the foot of Beachy Head cliffs in East Sussex. She had just been freed from Bronzefield women’s prison where she had been serving a six-month prison sentence following the racist rant on an Air India flight. A friend said that she had been targeted by trolls following her conviction and that it caused her world to fall apart, according to the Telegraph. A police spokesman said: ‘The body of a woman found at Beachy Head on June 1 has been identified as Simone Burns from Hove. ‘The death is not being treated as suspicious and the next of kin have been informed. The matter has been passed to the coroner’s office.
> 
> https://metro.co.uk/2019/07/04/lawyer-jailed-spitting-air-crew-refused-alcohol-found-dead-10112007/







> A lawyer who spat at a flight attendant during a racist foul-mouthed tiradeafter she was refused alcohol on a nine-hour business class flight has been jailed for six months.
> 
> Judge Nicholas Wood, sentencing at Isleworth Crown Court, told Simone Burns: “The experience of a drunk and irrational person in the confines of an aircraft is frightening, not least on a long-haul flight and poses a potential risk to safety.”
> 
> The judge noted that “such offences are often committed by people of impeccable character.
> 
> Although the aircraft was not at risk by Burns’s behaviour, the judge said “for the luckless and unfortunate passengers and crew there is no escape at 30,000ft”.
> 
> He added that “spitting straight into a crew member’s face at close range is a particularly insulting and upsetting act”.
> ...

----------


## Troy

Flyadeal have dropped their 737 Max order. I guess BA will be able to pick their order  up a little quicker now.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48899588

That's 30 + 20 going from Boeing to Airbus...

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Flyadeal have dropped their 737 Max order. I guess BA will be able to pick their order  up a little quicker now.
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48899588
> 
> That's 30 + 20 going from Boeing to Airbus...


BA (IAG) haven't ordered any. They've just issued a "letter of intent". It could be more Willie Walsh shenanigens, he's the sharpest Airline CEO out there.

----------


## OhOh

If Boeing had not changed from a quality focussed plane manufacturer to a "screw the suppliers" finance focused commodity supplier and spent billions on share buyback it could have produced some again world class planes

https://www.fool.com/investing/2016/...g-buyback.aspx

----------


## Klondyke

*Woman kicked off flight after passenger complained about see-through top
*
A woman “felt cheap” after a passenger complained she wasn’t wearing a bra under a low cut top, which caused her to be removed from the plane.



A woman claims she was booted off a flight because the shirt she was wearing was too low-cut.

Stunned mum-of-two Harriet Osborne, 31, was told by easyJet staff her partially see-through top was unsuitable as children were on board, The Sun reported.
The make-up artist, from Suffolk in the UK, was not wearing a bra but had nipple covers and tape. She said she covered up the shirt with a mate’s jumper but was not allowed back on.

Ms Osborne said she had to sleep on the floor at Malaga airport in Spain with her friend before they flew home the next day.

“She said to me, ‘Oh no, move to the side,’ and tried to cover me up with my hands.

“She said, ‘You’re not coming on my plane like that — you need to put a top on’.

“Then she ordered me off the plane, so of course I put a top on. When I tried to get back on she turned to the ground crew and said, ‘She’s not coming on my plane’.

“I was escorted away from the aircraft. I was in shock. It was so sexist.

“The crew were horrible and made me feel cheap. This air hostess confronted me in front of the whole plane and said I wasn’t allowed on in that top,” she said.

“I just burst out crying. We had to walk back through the terminal where Spanish police stopped to question us. They were baffled when I told them why we’d been kicked off.”


Ms Osborne, who spent the weekend at a relative’s house, paid $270 for another flight.

“I never show my body off at home but I felt spontaneous as I was on holiday. It made me feel so self-conscious,” she said.

A source said some passengers complained to crew that they could see Ms Osborne’s nipples.

EasyJet responded to the incident in a statement.

“We can confirm that a passenger travelling from Malaga to Stansted on 23 June was unable to travel due to behaving disruptively,” the airline said.

“Following concerns about her clothing crew politely requested that the customer wear an additional top for the flight which the customer agreed to.

A woman said she was kicked off an easyJet flight after a passenger complained about her see-through top. 

A woman said she was kicked off an easyJet flight after a passenger complained about her see-through top.

“However she then proceeded to act disruptively towards a member of our crew.

“Our cabin and ground crew are trained to assess all situations and to act quickly and appropriately. We do not tolerate abusive or threatening behaviour towards our staff.”

https://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...73f0ed7d1a772c

----------


## Klondyke

Why not to wear a burka?

*A Texas doctor says American Airlines nearly kicked her off a flight for an 'inappropriate' romper

*A Houston woman says an American Airlines crew told her to cover up or risk being kicked off her flight coming home from vacation to Jamaica.

Tisha Rowe, a doctor and founder of a telemedicine service, posted on Twitter and Instagram that an American Airlines crew in Kingston briefly removed her and her son from a plane, called her romper inappropriate and threatened to remove her from the June 30 flight if she didn't cover up. 

Rowe, an African-American woman, said on social media the incident was racist and misogynistic. 

 Here is what i was wearing when @AmericanAir asked me to deplane for a talk. At which point I was asked  to “cover up”. When defending my outfit I was threatened with not getting back on the flight unless I walked down the aisle wrapped in a blanket. #notsofriendlyskies




Forth Worth-based American Airlines said it has apologized and reached out to the crew in Jamaica.

"We were concerned about Dr. Rowe's comments, and reached out to her and our team at the Kingston airport to gather more information about what occurred," said a statement from American Airlines spokeswoman Shannon Gilson. "We apologize to Dr. Rowe and her son for their experience, and have fully refunded their travel. We are proud to serve customers of all backgrounds and are committed to providing a positive, safe travel experience for everyone who flies with us."

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/...opriate-romper

----------


## Bettyboo

Harriet can get some, twice on Sundays; probably an ITFC supporter too, so that'll add to the moment.

HK & Singapore airports are now my favourites, very convenient, quick, efficient and well appointed; well designed and managed.




That Doha airport is a terrible place (damn busy at 3am, literally not a single seat in any food place or lounge...), LHR - terrible, Munich - average on a good day, Incheon, crap airport (especially with the expansion, and the messing around from terminal to terminal)... The old DM is more convenient and easier to use than LHR and ICN.

----------


## docmartin

“The crew were horrible and made me feel cheap.”

Because ...... (wait for it) .....  YOU’RE CHEAP !!!

FFS a plane isn’t a nightclub. At 31 she should know better.

----------


## Klondyke

Who said nobody's buying Boeing? Just get invited to WH...

*Qatar, US sign 'billions worth' of business deals*

Qatar and the United States signed commercial contracts worth an alleged $85 billion, sources claimed, during the visit of the Qatari Emir Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani to Washington.

The deals signed by US President Donald Trump and Qatar's royal included a number of commercial agreements, including the purchase by Qatar Airways of five Boeing 777 Freighters and a large-cabin aircraft from Gulfstream.

The White House also said Qatar's Defence Ministry will buy a missile defence system from Raytheon. In addition, Chevron Phillips Chemical and Qatar Petroleum have agreed to jointly develop a $8 billion petrochemical plant on the US Gulf Coast.

The price tags on the other deals are yet to be disclosed, but those familiar with the transactions said they totalled tens of billions of dollars.

Trump gave a warm White House welcome on Tuesday to the Emir of Qatar amid a continuing rift between the Gulf nation and fellow American allies Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and the UAE, which imposed a land, air and sea blockade of Qatar two years ago. 


Trump clasped hands with Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani during the visit, calling the Qatari royal a friend.

"They are investing very heavily in our country," he said. "They're creating lots of jobs. They're buying tremendous amounts of military equipment, including planes," Trump said.

Sheikh Tamim reiterated the comment, noting Qatar has "a lot of investments in the US." 

"We trust the economy here. We do a lot on infrastructure and we're planning to do more investment," Tamim said.

https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/ne...business-deals

----------


## Bettyboo

^ that should keep the Saudi nutters off their back for a while.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Harriet can get some, twice on Sundays; probably an ITFC supporter too, so that'll add to the moment.
> 
> HK & Singapore airports are now my favourites, very convenient, quick, efficient and well appointed; well designed and managed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That Doha airport is a terrible place (damn busy at 3am, literally not a single seat in any food place or lounge...), LHR - terrible, Munich - average on a good day, Incheon, crap airport (especially with the expansion, and the messing around from terminal to terminal)... The old DM is more convenient and easier to use than LHR and ICN.



I'm glad Dubai isn't on there because it's shit.

I haven't been through Doha in a couple of years, but the fucking thing crowded? Why, have they closed most of it?

Can't see what's so brilliant about Changi to be honest, it's alright but nothing special.

----------


## NamPikToot

> I'm glad Dubai isn't on there because it's shit. it's alright but nothing special.


But the Teak Door Fantasy Footie league will keep you occupied in your airport transit  :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> But the Teak Door Fantasy Footie league will keep you occupied in your airport transit


No it won't, because I only fly Emirates when the company makes me (e.g. Edinburgh).

Nice smoking lounge, admittedly, but the transit process is a fucking disaster.

----------


## baldrick

what is wrong with emirates ?  I flew them once joburg-bkok in 2015 and they were fine

----------


## OhOh

> sources claimed,


Possibly already announced at a recent air show?




> White House also said


Does anybody believe the "white house", is it now a ameristani citizen?




> "They are investing very heavily in our country," he said. "They're creating lots of jobs. They're buying tremendous amounts of military equipment, including planes," Trump said.


goldilocks "says"




> noting Qatar has "a lot of investments in the US


"Has" , past tense




> we're planning to do more investment


I'm planning a trip to the moon, age, health and finances permitting

----------


## harrybarracuda

> what is wrong with emirates ?  I flew them once joburg-bkok in 2015 and they were fine


It was right there in front of you.




> the transit process is a fucking disaster.

----------


## baldrick

you have not transited Mauritius then

line up twice

----------


## harrybarracuda

> you have not transited Mauritius then
> 
> line up twice



Dubai is:

Land
Taxi for ten fucking minutes and park on a standing in the arse end of nowhere.
Get on a bus.
Drive around for 20 fucking minutes.
Queue up behind the other buses for 10 minutes
Get off the bus and go into Security
Queue up for 10 minutes
Go for a smoke
Go to the gate
Get on a bus
Wait 10 minutes for the bus to leave
Drive around the fucking airport for 20 minutes, including past all the C-Gates that haven't got a single plane between them
Get on the plane.
Have a glass of champagne and moan about how badly that fucking shit airport is run.

----------


## Jack meoff

And add a train journey to that in between and the lack of security staff at night.

The down side of cheap ME  transits.

----------


## happynz

I recently transited through Frankfurt and it was meh. On the way to Panama I also went through Tampa, Florida and although not a major hub or anything, I found it pretty damn organised and easy to get around. Tocumen in Panama City is not very good now, but with the Metro connecting soon one will be able to avoid the expensive taxi ride into the city.

----------


## Troy

Never transited through the ME. I prefer non-stop wherever possible and no more than two flights without a stop over.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Never transited through the ME. I prefer non-stop wherever possible and no more than two flights without a stop over.


I did four in a day once. Sydney-Melbourne-KL-Swampy-CNX.

Fucking nightmare that was.

 :Smile:

----------


## Bettyboo

> I did four in a day once. Sydney-Melbourne-KL-Swampy-CNX.
> 
> Fucking nightmare that was.


That does sound terrible...  :Sad: 

My worst was Aukland to LA, 9 hours transit, LA to KHR, underground to Finsbury Park, change onto the overland to Hertfordshire, no taxis, so a 2 mile walk up a steep hill - pretty tired when I got home...

----------


## Switch

Flying, especially on the domestic front in Indonesia is quite literally a cattle market. It took me 14 hours and 3 very wearisome flights, with low cost travel, just to cover 1600kms.

Ive fucking had it with Asian budget airlines.

Garuda is at least a decent national carrier, with some semblance of style and good order.

----------


## NamPikToot

I stopped transiting through ME when they started code sharing with Indian airlines - back to the UK and stopping in ME all of a sudden you are faced with families of 5 and the 3 kids left to run riot on the place with mum trying to placate them whilst dad sleeps - had a little (i estimate 8 YO) shit leaning over his backrest for an hour thinking it was funny to pull faces and fuk around with my TV - i finally had enough and wacked his hands and he started balling and blabbing in wobbly to dad who leant over and looked daggers at me as i leant towards him smiling and giving him the middle finger - last time for me that.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> I stopped transiting through ME when they started code sharing with Indian airlines - back to the UK and stopping in ME all of a sudden you are faced with families of 5 and the 3 kids left to run riot on the place with mum trying to placate them whilst dad sleeps - had a little (i estimate 8 YO) shit leaning over his backrest for an hour thinking it was funny to pull faces and fuk around with my TV - i finally had enough and wacked his hands and he started balling and blabbing in wobbly to dad who leant over and looked daggers at me as i leant towards him smiling and giving him the middle finger - last time for me that.


Oh you poor economy class passengers.

----------


## harrybarracuda

If you are planning on using Heathrow in the coming weeks you might want to check the dates....





> Heathrow Airport could be “shut down” this summer due to a series of strikes over a pay dispute, union Unite said.
> 
> 
> More than 4,000 workers including security guards, engineers and drivers will walk out on _July 26th and 27th, and August 5th, 6th, 23rd and 24th._
> 
> It comes after workers backed strike action in eight ballots.
> 
> Unite said the action follows the rejection of an 18-month pay offer amounting to £3.75 (€4.18) extra a day for the lowest paid.
> 
> ...

----------


## NamPikToot

> Oh you poor economy class passengers.


I claim mitigating circumstances your honor, firstly being forced to travel in cattle, second my kids would never have behaved like that little shit and they'd have got the same treatment but after about two minutes or less. :Smile:

----------


## Troy

> Oh you poor economy class passengers.


Company policy used to be fly business and turn up for work on arrival or fly economy and turn up following day. I always preferred the economy option if possible.

With my own money it's cattle class and decent hotel still. I'll take the upgrade on points ever other year but that's about it. I am knackered whichever hardly sleeping when travelling.

----------


## NamPikToot

> With my own money it's cattle class .


EVA or Thai on a Tues or Weds from LHR at c£450 rtn direct and quite often get 4 seats

----------


## OhOh

> LA to KHR


Air New Zealand eh, great flight in my Gold Member Business Class days  :Sad:

----------


## Bettyboo

I've found cattle class while paying extra for the emergency exit aisle seat (1,500 baht from Korea to Thailand; US$20 from Korea to HK/Macau/Philippines) to be a good option; also, I always stick myself in a lounge for 2 hours before departure to relax. You gotta do the outa exit rows (on planes with three rows) because the centre 4 seat row is often left for children... &, there are often 2 emergency exit rows next to each other, the first one doesn't decline much, so take the row behind which does fully recline aswellas giving the extra legroom - you end up with something similar to what BA used to call World Traveller Plus and charge about 350 pounds extra for...

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Company policy used to be fly business and turn up for work on arrival or fly economy and turn up following day. I always preferred the economy option if possible.


What a horrible, mean company.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Women fly to predominately muslim country, then complain about there being muslims on their flight home.

It didn't end well, stupid bitches.

 :Smile: 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...errorists.html

----------


## happynz

^ The word racist was always in quotations...odd.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^ The word racist was always in quotations...odd.


It's the Daily Mail. If they called anyone racist they'd lose all those white pensioner readers.

----------


## Troy

> What a horrible, mean company.


Yes I'm a mean bastard... :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Yes I'm a mean bastard...


The Turkey that voted for Xmas

 :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

Hardy har....




> Boeing Co.’s 737 Max may stay grounded until early 2020, the Wall Street Journal reported, months later than the guidance the planemaker is privately providing customers for resolving a software issue that surfaced last month.
> 
> 
> The plane is expected to start flying again in January 2020 “under the latest scenario,” the Journal said, citing unidentified sources within the Federal Aviation Administration and pilot-union leaders. The situation is “fluid” and no firm timeline has been established, the newspaper said.
> 
> https://skift.com/2019/07/15/faa-sources-say-the-boeing-737-max-may-stay-grounded-until-2020/

----------


## harrybarracuda

Ryanair's cunning plan to hide the fact they are flying the Boeing deathtraps...

----------


## Klondyke

*In Moscow, a private helicopter Robinson R-22M crashed

*Two people were killed. One of the dead was the head of the United Federation of Super-Light Aviation of Russia Igor Nikitin.
This was reported by  Kommersant.

He is known for being the instructor of the Russian President Vladimir Putin and accompanied him during the flight on a hang glider with cranes in 2012.

It is known that he was behind a helicopter's helm during an accident.

https://novyny.org/2019/07/15/u-pidm...obinson-r-22m/

----------


## Klondyke

*Video: Putin flies with rare cranes in an ultralight*
2012

Adorned in white overalls - to resemble a bird - Vladimir Putin spent some of Wednesday leading in a different capacity, heading a flock of crane birds in flight from a hand glider. The stunt already has the Russian blogosphere alight

----------


## baldrick

> a flock


snigger

or did the rest of the air sh1tters flock off ?  :Smile:

----------


## OhOh

> Company policy used to be fly business and turn up for work on arrival or fly economy and turn up following day. I always preferred the economy option if possible.


My last employer had different "rules" from the different department managers

Some were expected to fly out on a Sunday and start "performing" Monday morning, others were encouraged to stop over, to "absorb the culture" to enhance ones performance

The cheaper, stay a saturday night flights, I'm sure has no bearing

As my first trip with them was to an inter- office education, get to know ones foreign colleges, piss-up, in Singapore I was told to book a flight

During my due diligence I found that Thai Airways offered the greatest leg room in economy class, in the 747's

Unfortunately due to flight and scheduling it meant a weekend in Bangkok

Due to the "culture" I found in Bangkok, it became my stopover choice for all Asian visits

Many is the time I had to postpone my "cultural education",  to take a call from a client, from some far away and different time zone, who wanted to discuss a very important item or prepare a clients material late into the evening, by the poolside, with a jar of Margaritas to keep me focussed

Tedious but rewarding then and now

----------


## Klondyke

*Chaos at Düsseldorf Airport as passengers forced to leave luggage behind

*

Passengers at Düsseldorf Airport had to fly without their luggage on board on Wednesday due to a major breakdown in the baggage system.
Around 2,500 suitcases were left stranded in the airport after a technical malfunction hit baggage handling facilities at the airport, local media reported Wednesday. 

It came during a busy time for the western German state: the school summer holidays started last week and many people are jetting off.

As our pictures show, suitcases were left standing in the check-in hall on Wednesday morning because staff were not able to load them onto departing planes. Security employees cordoned off the luggage in a hangar in North Rhine-Westphalia's largest airport. 

According to an airport spokesman, five out of seven baggage handling systems were out of order between 3.30am and 8.45am. During that time only a limited number of baggage items could pass through the security check and be loaded onto planes.

https://www.thelocal.de/20190717/cha...stem-breakdown

----------


## Bogon

> I've found cattle class while paying extra for the emergency exit aisle seat (1,500 baht from Korea to Thailand; US$20 from Korea to HK/Macau/Philippines) to be a good option


Not done one for a while, so here goes...

Bogon Tip #842

If you want a seat by the exit, rock up early and tell the check-in that you are an ABP (able bodied passenger), and are willing to sit by the emergency exit.

If you are a strong male without family in tow, then the seat is yours for no fee.

----------


## Switch

^Thats happened to me a lot recently. I turn up early and ask for an aisle seat and the give me a free exit seat.

----------


## harrybarracuda

We don't have this problem at the pointy end.

 :Smile:

----------


## Troy

^ would that be flat blade or Philips?

----------


## Bettyboo

> We don't have this problem at the pointy end.


Near the toilets, at the back, 'Arry?

----------


## harrybarracuda

Oh the acerbic wit of bitter economy class passengers. Always amusing.

 :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

More Asian arseholes.

A passenger made a video on a Garuda flight in which he mocked a handwritten menu and them having only three bottles of champagne for 40 passengers on a SYD-DEN flight.

So now they are threatening to sue him for defamation.

What a great way to get your inept service to go viral. They really are fucking clueless.

 :rofl: 


Indonesian airline bans inflight filming, reportedly threatens to sue influencer ? Travel Weekly

----------


## harrybarracuda

I'm sure that isn't the last of it.




> Boeing will set aside $4.9bn (£3.9bn) to compensate airlines for the disruption caused by the worldwide grounding of its 737 Max jet.
> The world’s biggest plane maker said this evening the after tax charge would slash its pre-tax profits by $5.6bn in the second quarter, when results are announced next week.


https://www.cityam.com/boeing-takes-...sate-airlines/

----------


## harrybarracuda

BA cancels flights to Cairo for seven days, citing 'security reasons'.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49059700

----------


## Neverna

Here's an interesting article on how the Black Box came about and its inventor. The article includes a video interview of the inventor.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-49012771

----------


## harrybarracuda

British Airways is to seek a court injunction on Tuesday to halt industrial action by its pilots in a dispute over pay.

Members of the British Airline Pilots Association (Balpa) voted by more than 9-1 to launch a campaign of action which would cause chaos to summer flights.

Balpa general secretary Brian Strutton said: "This strong result demonstrates the resolve of BA pilots, and shows BA that it must table a sensible improved offer if a strike is to be averted.

"Sadly three days of Acas talks have not moved the company's position one iota. Settlement of this dispute is in BA's hands.

"We do not wish to inconvenience our customers which is why we have tried to resolve this matter through negotiation starting last November - it is BA who has regrettably chosen to drag this out into the summer months."

BA said its offer to pilots was worth 11.5 per cent over three years, adding: "We are very disappointed that Balpa has chosen to threaten the travel plans of thousands of our customers, over the summer holidays, with possible strike action.

"We remain open to working with Balpa to reach an agreement, which we have been doing since December.

"Our proposed pay offer of 11.5 per cent over three years is fair, and by contrast to Balpa the Unite and GMB trade unions, which represent nearly 90% of all British Airways colleagues, have already recommended the same pay offer to their members."

Meanwhile, Unite announced that over 90 firefighters and fire and rescue staff at Heathrow have voted for strike action in a separate dispute over pay.

They will join over 4,000 Heathrow workers in strikes planned during August.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/british-airways-is-seeking-court-injunction-to-halt-strike-action-by-pilots-in-dispute-over-pay-a4195971.html

----------


## harrybarracuda

Who's going to blink first? Willie Walsh is not exactly known for backing down from unions.




> British Airways’ bid to stop a potential August strike by its pilots hit a legal speed bump with a UK court turning down the airline's injunction to prevent it.
> 
> British Airways sought the injunction to stop pilots, represented by the British Airline Pilots Association (BALPA) union, striking next month after a ballot of members.
> 
> 
> The result of the ballot was 93 percent approval for strike action on a 90 percent participation rate, but BA maintained the vote was not conducted correctly and should not be allowed. The UK High Court ruling disagreed and the result of the ballot should stand.
> 
> British Airways said it was disappointed by the court’s decision and will pursue “every avenue” to protect its customers. It reiterated that it remains open to working with the pilot union to reach agreement.
> 
> ...

----------


## harrybarracuda

Oh, so BALPA lied.




> The judge gave permission for BA to appeal against her ruling, which could be heard by the Court of Appeal on Friday or at the start of the following week.
> 
> _Balpa agreed to give an undertaking to the court that they would not issue a notice of industrial action pending the outcome of any appeal.
> _
> https://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/british-airways-fails-to-end-strike-deadlock-1-4970111

----------


## OhOh

*FAA Let Boeing Sign Its Own Safety Certifications On The 737 Max*


_"Thanks to a 'broken regulatory process,' the Federal Aviation  Administration has been passing off routine oversight tasks to  manufacturers for years. In the case of the beleagured 737 Max,  however, the plane was so advanced that the regulator "handed nearly complete control to Boeing," which was able to sign off on its own safety certificates, according to the New York Times.

__The lack of regulatory oversight meant that the FAA had no clue how  Boeing's automated anti-stall system, known as MCAS, worked. In fact, "regulators had never independently assessed the risks of the dangerous software" when they issued a 2017 approval for the plane.

__The company performed its own assessments of the system, which were  not stress-tested by the regulator. Turnover at the agency left two  relatively inexperienced engineers overseeing Boeing’s early work on the  system.
_
_The F.A.A. eventually handed over responsibility for approval of MCAS to the manufacturer. After that, Boeing didn’t have to share the details of the system with the two agency engineers. They weren’t aware of its intricacies, according to two people with knowledge of the matter. -New York Times
_
_During the late stages of the Max's development, Boeing engineers  decided to increase the plane's reliance on MCAS to fly smoothly.   Unfortunately, a new version of the system relied on a single sensor which could malfunction and push the plane into a nosedive. 

B__oeing never submitted a formal assessment of the MCAS system  following its upgrade - which wasn't required by FAA rules. An agency  official claims that an engineering test pilot was familiar with the changes, however his job was to evaluate its effect on how the plane flew - not on its safety. 
_
_The jet was eventually certified as safe to fly, and the FAA required very little pilot training until the second Max crashed less than five months after the first. 
__
The plane remains grounded as regulators await a fix from Boeing. If  the ban persists much longer, Boeing said this past week that it could be forced to halt production.
_
_The F.A.A. and Boeing have defended the plane’s certification, saying  they followed proper procedures and adhered to the highest standards. -New York Times
__
"The agency’s certification processes are well-established and have  consistently produced safe aircraft designs," said the FAA in a Friday  statement undoubtedly written by lawyers. "The 737 Max certification  program involved 110,000 hours of work on the part of F.A.A. personnel,  including flying or supporting 297 test flights."
_
_Boeing, meanwhile, said that "the F.A.A.’s rigor and regulatory  leadership has driven ever-increasing levels of safety over the  decades," adding that "the 737 Max met the F.A.A.’s stringent standards  and requirements as it was certified through the F.A.A.’s processes."
_
_Chris Hart, former chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board is trying to get to the bottom of these regulatory shortcuts._ 
_"Did MCAS get the attention it needed? That’s one of the things we’re  looking at," said Hart, who now leads a multiagency task force  investigating the Max's approval. "As it evolved from a less robust  system to a more powerful system, were the certifiers aware of the  changes?"
_
_Rushed Orders_

_In an effort to compete with its rival Airbus, Boeing was "racing to  finish" the 737, according to the report. And when it came to cutting  through red tape to speed that process along, the FAA handing the regulatory reigns over to Boeing was crucial. 
__
At crucial moments in the Max’s development, the agency operated in the background, mainly monitoring Boeing’s progress and checking paperwork.  The nation’s largest aerospace manufacturer, Boeing was treated as a  client, with F.A.A. officials making decisions based on the company’s  deadlines and budget.
_
_It has long been a cozy relationship. Top agency officials have shuffled between the government and the industry._
_During the Max certification, senior leaders at the F.A.A. sometimes overruled their own staff members’ recommendations after Boeing pushed back.  For safety reasons, many agency engineers wanted Boeing to redesign a  pair of cables, part of a major system unrelated to MCAS. The company  resisted, and F.A.A. managers took Boeing’s side, according to internal  agency documents. -New York Times_

_The FAA, meanwhile, was 'surprised' to learn after last October's Lion Air crash that they didn't have a complete analysis of the MCAS system - including  the fact that the system could "aggressively push down the nose of the  plane and trigger repeatedly, making it difficult to regain control of  the aircraft, as it did on the doomed Lion Air flight.

__And what did the agency do after the October incident? Instead of grounding the plane, they issued a notice reminding pilots of existing emergency procedures (which made no mention of how the MCAS system works - after an FAA manager told agency engineers to remove the only mention of the system). 
_
_Read the rest of the Times report here. "

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-...ations-737-max
_

----------


## harrybarracuda

Add another 12 months to the certification. Fuck 'em.

----------


## OhOh

Boeing have a problem Huston

*737 MAX Rudder Control Does Not Meet Safety Guidelines - It Was Still Certified*
_
'The return of the Boeing 737 MAX into regular service is likely to be delayed even further than we anticipated. A new New York Times piece about the deference of the Federal Aviation Administration to Boeing reveals a new technical issue that will likely require an additional refit of the aircraft.
_
_We already knew that there was little oversight over Boeing with regards to the failed Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS):__
The company performed its own assessments of the system,  which were not stress-tested by the regulator. Turnover at the agency  left two relatively inexperienced engineers overseeing Boeing’s early  work on the system._ _The F.A.A. eventually handed over responsibility for approval of MCAS  to the manufacturer. After that, Boeing didn’t have to share the  details of the system with the two agency engineers. They weren’t aware  of its intricacies, according to two people with knowledge of the  matter._
_Late in the development of the Max, Boeing decided to expand the use  of MCAS, to ensure the plane flew smoothly. The new, riskier version  relied on a single sensor and could push down the nose of the plane by a  much larger amount._
_Boeing did not submit a formal review of MCAS after the overhaul. It wasn’t required by F.A.A. rules.__
The results are well know. The single sensor failed and MCAS  activated during a critical flight phase. 346 people on two flights were  killed.
_
_But MCAS is not the only system that the FAA allowed to be certified  even when it could cause significant problems. The European regulator  EASA identified five additional major issues that need to be fixed before the 737 MAX can again fly._
_
The NYT found another severe one:__
Early on, engineers at the F.A.A. discovered a problem with  one of the most important new features of the Max: its engines. The Max,  the latest version of the 50-year-old 737, featured more fuel-efficient  engines, with a larger fan and a high-pressure turbine. But the bigger,  more complex engines could do more damage if they broke apart midair._ _The F.A.A. engineers were particularly concerned about pieces hitting  the cables that control the rudder, according to five people with  knowledge of the matter and internal agency documents. A cable severed  during takeoff would make it difficult for pilots to regain control,  potentially bringing down the jet.__
The 737 MAX has newly developed LEAP-1B engines which have a larger fan at the front than the previous ones.
_
_The fans are 69.4 inch (1.76m) in diameter compared to 61 inch  (1.55m) on the 737 NG engines. The fan turns with 5,000 rotations per  minute and the turbine with 20,000 rotations per minute  (pdf). If a fan or turbine blade or disk breaks it becomes a high speed  projectile that can not be contained by the engine housing._
_The engines on the MAX are further forward than on previous 737  models. The debris of an uncontained engine failure would hit the  plane's body in places that were previously safe. Uncontained engine failures are relatively rare but they can and do happen on all modern jet types.
_
_In August 2016 Southwest Airlines Flight 3472  experienced an uncontained engine failure. Debris entered the fuselage  and the cabin depressurized. The plane landed safely and no one was  injured. In April 2018 Southwest Airlines Flight 1380  also had an uncontained engine failure. The debris penetrated the cabin  and broke a window. A passenger was partially sucked outside the  aircraft and later died. Eight others passengers received minor  injuries. The plane was seriously damaged but landed safely.
_
_Both accidents were caused by undetected fatigue in the titanium alloy fan blades. The fan blades of the new LEAP-1B are made of woven carbon fibers  injected with resin. While they are less prone to fatigue failure, they  are not indestructible. The smaller turbine blades are still made of  heavy titanium and nickel alloys. They have to be tested regularly for  fatigue._
_
The pilots in the 737 MAX use foot pedals to control the hydraulics  that move the plane's rudder. Steel cables run from the foot pedals to  the hydraulic control valves in the back of the plane._




_If debris from an uncontained engine failure cuts one of these cables the plane will become uncontrollable.
_
_It is quite obvious why the FAA engineers saw this as a problem. But  solving it would have cost time and money. Boeing rejected to fix the  issue and the FAA management took Boeing's side:
__
F.A.A. managers conceded that the Max “does not meet” agency  guidelines “for protecting flight controls,” according to an agency  document. But in another document, they added that they had to consider  whether any requested changes would interfere with Boeing’s timeline.  The managers wrote that it would be “impractical at this late point in  the program,” for the company to resolve the issue. Mr. Duven at the  F.A.A. also said the decision was based on the safety record of the  plane.
__
The problem is now a public issue. If a MAX engine fails, pieces cut  the rudder cables and the airplane crashes, the resulting public outrage  will make the MCAS issue look trivial. If Boeing and the FAA allow the  737 MAX planes back into the air without solving the issue, they risk  that the next accident will mean the end of the company.
_
_Foreign regulators already fumed at the FAA over the MCAS issue. The  newly revealed lack of redundancy in the rudder control will only add to  that. It is unlikely that they will allow the MAX back into the air  without a robust solution._
_
There are several ways to solve the problem. Redundant steel cables  could mitigate the risk. The cables could be protected by titanium tubes  as they are on some military planes. Redundant electric wires that  control a servo to move the hydraulic valves could be added. All these  are time consuming solutions which also require significant  modifications on the nearly 500 existing 737 MAX planes.
_
_Boeing CEO Dennis Mullenberg recently said  that the 737 MAX will probably fly again in October. That was already  way too optimistic. The whole certification of the MAX is now in  question._
_
Boeing will have to stop the 737 MAX production line. It will have to  borrow more money to keep the company going. Its credit rating will be downgraded._
_The 737 MAX is Boeing's cash cow that is supposed to generate $2.5  billion revenue per month. Without a competitive single aisles plane the  company will have difficulties to survive. But the 737 MAX is not  Boeing's only problem. Some airlines reject to buy Boeing 787 planes  that are manufactured in its not unionized South Carolina factory. That  factory is known to have quality issues. The military withholds money  from Boeing because the KC-46 tanker planes it delivers lacks in  functionality. Additionally debris was found in_ the tanks of several new  planes. The new 777X is delayed because of engine issues. The New  Midsize Airplane (NMA) the company plans to launch will be years late or  may never fly.
_
When the second 737 MAX crashed I expected difficulties for Boeing.  But I never thought that it could bring the company down. Now I am no  longer sure of that."

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/07/737-max-ruder-control-does-not-meet-safety-guidelines-it-was-still-certified.html#comments

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/27/business/boeing-737-max-faa.html

_What % of ameristani GDP does Boeing Airplanes contribute?

What other ameristani  civil airplane manufacturers also have a "cosy" relationship with ameristan's alleged regulators?

----------


## harrybarracuda

If they are afraid of uncontained engine failures cutting cables, they'd have to ground half the world's aircraft.

----------


## OhOh

All probably passed as airworthy by the FAA, no doubt

----------


## baldrick

did you read the story on el reg about airbuses requiring to be rebooted every 149 hours ?




> Some models of Airbus A350 airliners still need to be hard rebooted after exactly 149 hours, despite warnings from the EU Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) first issued two years ago.
> 
> In a mandatory airworthiness directive (AD) reissued earlier this week, EASA urged operators to turn their A350s off and on again to prevent "partial or total loss of some avionics systems or functions".
> 
> The revised AD, effective from tomorrow (26 July), exempts only those new A350-941s which have had modified software pre-loaded on the production line. For all other A350-941s, operators need to completely power the airliner down before it reaches 149 hours of continuous power-on time.
> 
> Concerningly, the original 2017 AD was brought about by "in-service events where a loss of communication occurred between some avionics systems and avionics network" (sic). The impact of the failures ranged from "redundancy loss" to "complete loss on a specific function hosted on common remote data concentrator and core processing input/output modules".
> 
> In layman's English, this means that prior to 2017, at least some A350s flying passengers were suffering unexplained failures of potentially flight-critical digital systems


https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/0...bug_149_hours/

----------


## Klondyke

(And I complained that at Swampy my toothpaste was thrown away...)


*Missile Launcher Found In Baltimore Airport Suitcase
*
Baltimore-Washington International (BWI) Airport security officials were alerted by computers on Monday morning when a Texas man's checked luggage contained an unloaded missile launcher, reported the Capital Gazette.

The man, a resident of Jacksonville, Texas, told Transportation Security Administration (TSA) officers he was active duty with the military traveling home from the Middle East and wanted to keep the launcher as a reminder of his service.




TSA spokesperson Lisa Farbstein said the launcher wasn't loaded nor a "live device," but the man was detained for questioning.

She added that military weapons are strictly prohibited in checked or carry-on bags, but also not illegal.

TSA officials questioned the man before releasing him so that he could catch a connecting flight. Government officials confiscated the missile launcher and sent it to the state fire marshal for disposal.

As far as we can see, not yet confirmed by officials, the missile launcher appears to be an AGM-176 Griffin, a lightweight, precision-guided munition developed by Raytheon.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-...timore-airport

----------


## harrybarracuda

> did you read the story on el reg about airbuses requiring to be rebooted every 149 hours ?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/0...bug_149_hours/


Adds a whole new dimension to "Have you tried turning it off and on again"?

 :Smile:

----------


## Troy

It's not the first and won't be the last to need a reboot every now and again.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Well they lost the appeal so don't depend on BA over the summer.




> British Airways says it is "disappointed" after losing an appeal to prevent its pilots going on strike over the summer.
> On Wednesday (July 31) the Court of Appeal rejected the airline's attempts to block the strike action by the British Airlines Pilots Association (BALPA).
> In a statement, British Airways said: “We are disappointed that the pilots' union, BALPA, has chosen to threaten the holidays of thousands of our customers this summer with unprecedented strike action.
> “We are very sorry for the disruption BALPA's strike action will cause our customers. While no strike dates have yet been issued by BALPA, and they are required to give us 14 days' notice of any intention to call strike action, we ask our customers to review their contact details by visiting the BA website or by contacting their travel agent. 
> “We continue to pursue every avenue to find a solution to avoid industrial action and protect our customers' travel plans.
> 
> https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/strike-action-british-airways-pilots-16674308

----------


## harrybarracuda

Ruh Roh. Sounds like switching from BA might not be enough....




> Passengers using Heathrow Airport are set for a summer of misery after thousands of workers are said to have voted to reject a new pay deal.
> Around 4,000 members of Unite, including security guards, firefighters and engineers, have been voting on a revised pay deal, with the result expected later today.
> Planned strikes were suspended while the workers voted on the offer, but industrial action on dates throughout August remain, with Unite saying walkouts next Monday and Tuesday look likely to go ahead.
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...o=taboola_feed

----------


## harrybarracuda

Well it seems the threat of industrial action (shouldn't it be called industrial inaction?) has brought IAG back to the table.




> (Reuters) - Pilots’ union BALPA said on Friday it was in talks with British Airways, owned by IAG (ICAG.L), to try to resolve a pay dispute between pilots and the airline.
> 
> 
> British Airways and the pilots agreed to continue talks next week, BALPA said, adding it would not announce any dates for industrial action at this time bit.ly/2OBiDNa.
> 
> Pilots at British Airways voted for strike action on pay in early July, and the airline’s bid to bring a High Court injunction to stop it failed.
> This week, Britain’s Court of Appeal rejected an attempt by the airline to stop the proposed strike action and BALPA called on the company to hold more talks to prevent industrial action.
> 
> https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-ia...US256?rpc=401&

----------


## OhOh

> It's not the first and won't be the last to need a reboot every now and again.


Assuming 14 hours of flying time per plane per day that's every 10 days, seems a very short time

----------


## harrybarracuda

Heathrow Airport has cancelled 172 flights on Monday and Tuesday after a union vote rejected a pay offer.


The Unite Union said 88 per cent of its 4,000 members – including engineers, firefighters and security staff – voted down the deal and opted to strike.


They said if the walkouts go ahead, around 2,500 will miss work.

Industrial action is set to happen on 5 and 6 August, with additional strikes planned for 23 and 24 August. However, Heathrow have not yet announced which flights will be cancelled.

https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/172-heathrow-flights-cancelled-union-reject-pay-deal-strike-action/

----------


## OhOh

*Air traffic between China & Africa skyrockets 630% in the last decade*


_"__Massive Chinese investment pouring into Africa has led to the  rapid expansion of air traffic between the east Asian country and the  continent.      
__There are currently eight  direct flights operating on an average day between China and African  nations. That is a huge increase from less than a decade ago when  airlines averaged less than one flight a day.
_
_At the moment, the  Africa-China traffic route is serving 2,616 annual flights, according to  statistics from aviation company OAG, which were seen by Quartz. They  showed the airline fleets operating between China and Africa are now  capable of carrying about 850,000 passengers annually.
_
_Ethiopian Airlines, which didnt have a single Africa-China route  nine years ago, is now operating almost half of the 2,616 annual  flights. The carrier has more than doubled the size of its fleet in the  last decade, becoming the largest airline operator in Africa.
_
_Chinese  travelers comprise the airlines largest group of customers, according  to its spokesman, Asrat Begashaw. The airline flies daily to Guangzhou,  Shanghai, Beijing, and three times a week to Chengdu. It has announced  plans to add three more Chinese destinations.
_
_Chinese firms have  been winning infrastructure projects on the African aviation market,  which has long been challenged by a lack of integration, deficient  infrastructure, and high costs. Airbus predicts that the continent will  require 1,130 new aircraft by 2037.
_
_In recent years, Chinese  companies have helped to build airports in Kenya, Mali, Mauritius,  Mozambique, Nigeria, the Republic of Congo, Togo, Sierra Leone, and  other countries.
_
_According to the China Investment Global Tracker, Chinese investments  and contracts in Sub-Saharan Africa totaled almost $300 billion from  2005 to 2018. Chinese president Xi Jinping last year pledged to invest a  further $60 billion into African nations. He added that Chinese  companies will be encouraged to invest no less than $10 billion in the  continent in the next three years.
_
_Beijings ambitious Belt and  Road Initiative has already seen billions of dollars loaned to countries  in Asia and Africa for roads, railways, ports, and other major  infrastructure projects."_

https://www.rt.com/business/465708-c...raffic-growth/

----------


## harrybarracuda

Well of course it has you mong, all those chinkies are going there to bribe officials and steal everything they can.

Remember: "DEBT DIPLOMACY"

----------


## harrybarracuda

Silly fuckers.




> *Police arrest airline pilots at Glasgow Airport after they allegedly failed breathalyser tests before transatlantic flight*
> Two American airline pilots were arrested in Scotland yesterday after allegedly failing a breathalyser before flying passengers to New York.
> 
> 
> The men, aged 45 and 61, were arrested at Glasgow Airport and are expected to appear at Paisley Sheriff Court on Tuesday.
> 
> Both men were detained before boarding United Airlines flight UA162, which was supposed to take off at 9am yesterday for Newark.
> 
> Police Scotland say they were called to the airport about 7am yesterday.
> ...

----------


## harrybarracuda

AN update on the Heathrow strikes (not the pilot's one): No-one is entitled to airline compensation for any delays or cancellation, as this is considered outside the airlines control.

That's a bastard innit.

----------


## Troy

Thank goodness we opted to drive.

----------


## Jack meoff

^Remember to leave your leather pants at home. they won't go down well at the Red Lion

----------


## OhOh

> No-one is entitled to airline compensation for any delays or cancellation,


I'm sure all "Travel Insurance Policies" are worded to ensure the purchaser is fully satisfied

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Troy

^^ Still pub crawling Jack? 

Bloody long drive home yesterday, especially as the A1 south was closed at Huntington, as was the A9 at Nuremberg.

----------


## Jack meoff

:Smile: 
Good job you had the best of Bavarian Oompah band hits to get you there.

----------


## Troy

Yep, it's beer and oompah band season alright...

----------


## Jack meoff

^ I miss those days
Oktoberfest next month, might just book me sen a flight

No hotel needed, 48 hours solid.

----------


## harrybarracuda

I bet more than a few people wish they'd make their fucking minds up. Flights can't just be "uncancelled".




> *Heathrow strike temporarily postponed for further talks*Thousands of Heathrow workers will clock in on Monday (5 August) after the Unite union called off its planned strike action to convene further talks with airport bosses.
> 
> https://www.ttgmedia.com/news/heathrow-strike-temporarily-postponed-for-further-talks-18922

----------


## harrybarracuda

Might be useful to some.




> Thai Airways International is adding fights to Paris, Vienna and Melbourne effective starting October 27 through to at least the end of March next year.
> 
> Flights to Paris will increase from daily to 10 a week, but it will also involve a downsizing of aircraft from the mega A380 to a mix of the Boeing 777-300 and the smaller A350-900 XWB.
> 
> The three new services, mid-day departures from Bangkok, will use the 321 seat Airbus A350-900. The daily service will use a Boeing 777-300 with 364 seats.
> 
> The new three services depart Bangkok at 1215 on Monday, Thursday and Saturday. The daily service departs from Bangkok at 0005.
> 
> Flights to Vienna will increase from five to daily effective October 27 using a Boeing Dreamliner 787-8 aircraft with 256 seats.
> ...

----------


## OhOh

^Allegedly the 350's are more comfortable and spacious than the 777s, at the back end

Where are the 380s being transferred too?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^Allegedly the 350's are more comfortable and spacious than the 777s, at the back end
> 
> Where are the 380s being transferred too?


Doesn't say but high traffic route... Hong Kong? There might be a lot of people getting out soon.

 :Smile:

----------


## OhOh

^Where might they be welcome?

----------


## Troy

> ^Allegedly the 350's are more comfortable and spacious than the 777s, at the back end
> 
> Where are the 380s being transferred too?


I imagine the a380s will be sold off to one of the airlines keeping them longer.

----------


## Klondyke

*Cathay Pacific is ‘spying on you through in-flight entertainment and even recording your movement’
*Nestled in the back of every seat on this popular passenger airline is a disturbing piece of technology — it’s watching your every move.

Cathay Pacific passengers have been warned that an updated privacy policy means their movements and preferences are being recorded by the airline through their in-flight entertainment screens as well as at the airport.

Even worse, the information and images will be stored indefinitely, with the carrier claiming it will be for “as long as necessary”.
Their new policy was introduced last week, according to Forbes, which explains that images taken from CCTV on the plane as well as at airports could be held by the airline.

The policy explains that they collect “information such as previous travel arrangements, feedback about your experiences, details of lost luggage and other claims, your use of our in-flight entertainment system and in-flight connectivity, your images captured via CCTV in our airport lounges and aircraft”.

Read more
https://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...10f7ceacb9c67b

----------


## OhOh

As the airplanes are basically from only one or two suppliers I presume all airlines have the same capability and look forward to more public updates of their own "privacy policy"

They don't mention who else the "personal information" will be handed too, public, commercial or government, either for airline profit or by court order

One suspects all airports have similar "private information" collection systems and procedures, who is on their distribution list?

----------


## OhOh

> I imagine the a380s will be sold off to one of the airlines keeping them longer.


I was enquiring more about who has routes suitable and will want to take on 380s at a time when single isle two engine airplanes appear to more useful/adaptable/profitable, in the post hub and spoke world of civil aviation

----------


## harrybarracuda

> I was enquiring more about who has routes suitable and will want to take on 380s at a time when single isle two engine airplanes appear to more useful/adaptable/profitable, in the post hub and spoke world of civil aviation


They will either be used for high traffic routes like Thai said they would be, or they will be sold off/leased to a passenger/freight company (although I'm not sure it's cheap to refit them for cargo).

----------


## harrybarracuda

'kinell BA can't catch a break can they.

 :Smile: 




> British Airways said on Wednesday it had cancelled some short-haul flights from Heathrow, Gatwick and London City airports because of an IT systems failure.
> 
> 
> The airline, owned by International Airlines Group, said: "We are working as quickly as possible to resolve a systems issue which has resulted in some short-haul cancellations and delays from London airports."
> 
> 
> It said it was offering customers booked on short-haul services departing from London airports the opportunity to rebook on another day.
> 
> https://www.yenisafak.com/en/news/british-airways-cancels-some-flights-due-to-it-failure-3497568

----------


## harrybarracuda

Stupid or kids. Or perhaps stupid kids.




> Pilots had to take evasive action to avoid a potentially "catastrophic" scenario after lasers were used to target five planes landing at Glasgow Airport.
> 
> The "extremely dangerous" incidents happened between 10pm and 11:30pm on Monday and the same time today.
> 
> Lasers were beamed at five different aircraft coming in to land, causing the pilots to take action to protect their vision.
> 
> https://www.scotsman.com/news/crime/pilots-take-evasive-action-after-lasers-target-planes-landing-at-scottish-airport-1-4978766

----------


## Klondyke

*FAA bans some Apple laptops from flights over fire risk*

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) announced Tuesday it is banning certain MacBook Pro laptops from flights after Apple recently said that batteries in select units posed fire risks.

The FAA said in a statement to The Hill it was “aware of the recalled batteries that are used in some Apple MacBook Pro laptops” and that it had informed major U.S. airlines of the recall.

The agency went on to remind airlines to follow 2016 safety instructions for products containing recalled batteries, which would mean that the affected laptops should not be taken on airplanes as cargo or in carry-on baggage.

The move echoes a similar warning from the European Union Aviation Safety Agency earlier this month to regional airlines about the MacBook models, saying they should follow 2017 rules mandating devices with recalled lithium-ion batteries to be turned off and not used during flights.

The products in question are some 15-inch MacBook Pros sold between September 2015 and February 2017. Apple said in June it had “determined that, in a limited number of older generation 15-inch MacBook Pro units, the battery may overheat and pose a fire safety risk.”

Four airlines with operations managed by Total Cargo Expertise (TCE) implemented its ban on the laptops this week according to an internal notice obtained by Bloomberg. 

“Please note that the 15-inch Apple MacBook Pro laptop, sold between mid-2015 to February-2017 is prohibited on board any of our mandate carriers,” a TCE operations coordinator wrote to employees. 

The Apple laptop is not the first product to be banned from flights. Samsung’s Galaxy Note 7 phones were barred from airlines in 2016 after several incidents emerged in which its battery exploded while in people’s pockets.

FAA guidelines forbid bringing recalled batteries on flights unless they’ve been replaced or stored in special packing that prevents fires.

https://thehill.com/policy/transport...over-fire-risk

----------


## Troy

A321 emergency landing after bird strike...Luckily only minor injuries and some stained underwear.

*Russia bird strike: 23 injured after plane hits gulls and crash-land

*A Russian passenger plane has made an emergency landing in a cornfield near Moscow after striking a flock of birds. 
Twenty-three  people were injured in the incident, which saw the plane land with its  engines off and landing gear retracted, health officials said.


The  Ural Airlines Airbus 321 was travelling to Simferopol in Crimea when it  hit the flock of gulls shortly after take-off, disrupting its engines. 
State media has dubbed the landing the "miracle over Ramensk".


The airline said the plane was significantly damaged and would not fly again. An official investigation is under way.


The plane had 233 passengers and crew on board when the birds were  reportedly sucked into its engines and the crew immediately decided to  land.
An unnamed passenger told state TV the plane started to shake violently after take-off.


"Five  seconds later, the lights on the right side of the plane started  flashing and there was a smell of burning. Then we landed and everyone  ran away," he said.
Air transport agency Rosaviatsia said the  plane landed in a cornfield about a kilometre (0.62 miles) from the  runway at Zhukovsky International Airport, with its engines off and  landing gear retracted.

etc...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-49355236

----------


## Klondyke

*Russian airliner with 233 on board suffers birdstrike, makes BELLY LANDING near Moscow (VIDEO)

*A narrow-body airliner operated by Russias Ural Airlines and carrying 226 passengers and seven crew, landed with its wheels up in the countryside near Moscow after suffering a "rare" birdstrike.
Bound for Simferopol, Crimea, the Airbus A321 unexpectedly struck numerous seagulls or crows shortly after departing from Moscows Zhukovsky Airport.

Having no time to dump fuel and with no deployed undercarriages, the heavy-loaded jet made a belly landing in a cornfield just 1km from the runway. A spine chilling footage from inside the airctaft surfaced online a while later.

Moments before the bumpy touchdown, the malfunctioning engines were switched to avoid fire on board, it has been reported.

Ural Airlines CEO Sergey Skuratov said the scale of the birdstrike was in fact something out of the ordinary.

It is quite rare, it happens maybe once in 50 years.

Luckily, there was no blaze on board the ill-fated Airbus and no one died in the incident. Still, 74 passengers  including 19 children  received injuries.

Meanwhile, the airline praised the crew for professionallism during the spine chilling landing as well as for well-organized evacuation.

Now I believe in God, for sure.

This is my second birthday, another woman is heard saying in a video taken by one of the passengers. 

People later described the traumatic experience they went through.

The engine clapped several times, they tried to re-activate it but we started going down, one man wrote on Twitter uploading a video of the jet.

The Thursday incident is reminiscent of a 2009 incident known as the Miracle on the Hudson involving US Airways Flight 1549, when an Airbus A320 flown by Captain Chesley Sullenberger and Jeffrey Skiles hit a flock of geese after takeoff from New York Citys LaGuardia Airport and lost all engine power. Unable to land at any available airport, they had to ditch the jet in the Hudson River outside Manhattan, with all 155 rescued by nearby ferries and boats.

https://www.rt.com/russia/466524-pla...anding-moscow/

----------


## OhOh

^^ & ^

*Video shows MOMENT when birds hit Ural Airlines jet on take-off     * https://vk.com/video-112510789_456254598

https://www.rt.com/russia/466542-a32...y-video-birds/

----------


## Klondyke

*US Customs and Border Protection says systems are being restored after earlier outage snarled international arrivals at airports
*
U.S. Customs and Border Protection says systems are being restored after an earlier outage held up immigration processing at U.S. airports around the country.

The issue delayed arriving travelers who swarmed entry checkpoints.

CBP says it will continue to monitor the incident, adding that there’s no indication the disruption was malicious in nature.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/16/comp...nd-the-us.html

----------


## misskit

*THAI struggling with huge debt, executives asked to take voluntarily pay cut*Thai Airways International, the national flag carrier, appears to be in a deep financial crisis and may have to delay debt repayments or seek new loans.


THAI president Sumet Damrongchaitham said this morning (Monday) that he has asked the company’s executives, himself included, to cut their meeting allowances and remuneration voluntarily to show spirit in helping the organization get through this crisis.


“This is just one of the measures to cut costs so that THAI will be able to compete in the aviation industry. The spirit of the board and executives will inspire others in our organization to realize that it is high time that we join forces in all ways to survive this crisis. Whatever can be sacrificed must be sacrificed,” said Mr. Sumet.

He assured the company’s staff that they should not be worried about the remuneration cuts, saying that it will be confined only to the management, and that the voluntary measure will not affect the quality of the company’s services.


Meanwhile, an informed source in the Transport Ministry said that THAI’s debt crisis was very serious and puts the carrier at risk of bankruptcy, with its combined total debt amounting to about 245 billion baht, a debt to equity ratio of 14.55 and debt service coverage ratio reducing to 0.62.


The source said, if THAI is allowed to buy a new fleet of planes, worth an estimated 156 billion baht, it would become the world’s most indebted airline.

https://www.thaipbsworld.com/thai-st...arily-pay-cut/

----------


## harrybarracuda

Bt156 billion is probably what they've trousered or lost in revenue by giving away premium seats to arsehole friends.

----------


## docmartin

No wonder. 
They’re as useful as a —— full of snow.

----------


## misskit

*Vietnam Airlines, US’s Delta ink code sharing agreement*Hanoi (VNA) - National carrier Vietnam Airlines and the US’s Delta Air Lines have signed a code sharing agreement in Atlanta, expanding their operation from October this year.


This is a new step of the two airlines since the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) granted Category 1 aviation safety rating to the Civil Aviation Authority of Vietnam in February this year.


Under the agreement, the two firms will check operation systems next month. After the Vietnam Airlines’ system is assessed to be at operational standard, Delta will deploy ticket sales for flights operated by Vietnam Airlines between Hanoi and Tokyo to serve passengers who needs connecting flights to the US.


Vietnam Airlines said it’s the first step for it to explore the Vietnam – US aviation market.


Last year, Vietnam Airlines and Delta received nearly 18,000 visitors from cooperation between the two firms, mainly passengers travelling from the US to Vietnam. - VNA

National News Bureau Of Thailand

----------


## David48atTD

Evidence is building that China and Russias long-haul passenger plane wont arrive on time




Key Points

China and Russia want their CRAIC CR929 aircraft to challenge Airbus and Boeings duopoly.Debate surrounds whether the 2025 delivery date is possible.Both Boeing and Airbus have predicted stellar growth for aircraft demand. 


The date for the first flight of a long-haul passenger plane jointly developed by China and Russia looks set to slip.
State-owned  companies in Russia and China have been working together on a wide-body  jet program since 2014 and was originally planned to enter the market  by 2025.

Russias  United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) and the Commercial Aircraft  Corporation of China (COMAC) are building the CR929, a long-range,  250-320-seat, wide-body plane powered by two engines. The joint venture,  headquartered in Shanghai, operates under the name CRAIC.
CNBC reached out to UAC and COMAC but a comment was not immediately available.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/20/chin...nd-boeing.html


Anyone who's knows/been to Ireland will be 'aving a larf at the projects name ... Craic    :smiley laughing:

----------


## Bettyboo

^ if they haven't even worked out where to put the wings yet then they're struggling...

----------


## David48atTD

> ^ if they haven't even worked out where to put the wings yet then they're struggling...


Yep ...  :Smile: 


If anyone reads into the article, at the end, they are still undecided what engines they will be running!

----------


## harrybarracuda

Well at least the 737 MAX will have some competition.

----------


## aging one

> Well at least the 737 MAX will have some competition.


How is that? This new joint venture is a double aisle airplane. The 737 max is single aisle..

----------


## misskit

*AOT launches AOT Digital Airports app*To help people who use the main airports in Thailand, Airports of Thailand (AOT) Public Company Limited has adopted technology to improve service, and link information at airports via an application.


The AOT Digital Airports system is an innovation that efficiently links all information technology systems at airports for the convenience of airport service users. The link includes the tourism industry outside airports, especially transport and tour services in and outside the country. 


The application software will provide passengers with information about flights, check-in counters, luggage, maps of passenger terminals which lead passengers to their desired locations, information about public transport services and transport inside airports, information on facilities inside airports, shop information and flight alerts to allow passengers to prepare themselves before heading to their airports.


The application also provides translation services in five languages: Thai, Chinese, English, Russian and Japanese. The AOT also has a plan to cooperate with its partners to include useful and necessary information in order to upgrade services for the people. The application software can facilitate the requirements of airport management. For example, it can give real-time reports on the number of passengers at specific locations. Initially, this type of service will be piloted at Suvarnabhumi Airport and the AOT’s 6 airports, including Hat Yai, Chiang Mai and Don Mueang. In future, the AOT will link the system to 16 airports in partnership with AOT around the world. Passengers can download the application on both the iOS and Android systems.


National News Bureau Of Thailand

----------


## harrybarracuda

> How is that? This new joint venture is a double aisle airplane. The 737 max is single aisle..


Oh FFS.

Was it really too subtle?

 :rofl:

----------


## aging one

> 59,756


This sort of sums it all up. quantity, quantity, must get more quantity.  :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> This sort of sums it all up. quantity, quantity, must get more quantity.


It would have been 59,755 if you weren't too fucking thick to get an obvious joke.

 :bananaman:

----------


## harrybarracuda

For the first time in British Airways' history, pilots at the airline are set to go on strike next month.

The pilots, who are members of the British Airline Pilots Association, has given notice to British Airways of the strike on September 9, 10 and 27.

In a statement, BALPA sad, "In what is British Airways' centenary year, this will be the very first time its pilots will go on strike. They do so as a last resort and with enormous frustration at the way the business is now being run."

The union said it had put forward a number of packages to resolve the dispute but British Airways did not accept any of them. Following discussions with its members, it said that BA's most recent offer will not gain the support of a majority of its pilots.

Members voted unanimously (93%) in favour of taking industrial action.

It said a day of strike action will cost BA around £40m and 3 days will cost in the region of £120m. "The gap between BA's position and BALPA's position is about £5m. Our proposal remains on the table should BA wish to reach agreement prior to strike action," the statement read.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/201...-in-september/

----------


## Jack meoff

Fuck sake, got a sly trip on the 10th, A 6 lounger.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Looks like IAG are playing hardball....




> British Airways has already started cancelling flights after pilots voted to strike for better pay and conditions next month, disrupting travel plans for tens of thousands of passengers.
> Yesterday pilots' union Balpa confirmed a strike by more than 3,000 pilots for next month after talks with BA broke down.
> By the evening affected passengers had started receiving emails telling them their flights were cancelled, apologising for the inconvenience, and warning them not to go to the airport.
> BA wrote: 'We are very sorry to tell you that due to industrial action by British Airways pilots union, BALPA, your flight ... has been cancelled.
> 'The strike is expected to have a significant impact on our operation and will result in a large number of delays or cancellations. 
> 'Please do not go to the airport, you can rebook or refund your cancelled flight online.'
> A month after announcing its members had voted for industrial action, the union said there was now 'no prospect of any further meaningful talks' and claimed it had 'no choice but to call this action'.
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7389433/British-Airways-starts-cancelling-flights-HOURS-pilots-union-announcing-strike.html

----------


## David48atTD

*Scoot* to operate from Terminal 1 at Singapore Changi Airport from 22 October 2019

Please note that all Scoot flights will arrive at Terminal 1 of  Singapore Changi Airport from 22 October 2019, and all Scoot flights  will depart from Terminal 1 starting from 22 October 2019, 5.15 a.m.  Singapore time. 

https://www.flyscoot.com/en/announce...t-terminalmove

----------


## harrybarracuda

More 737 MAX woes... maybe they should change their name to Woeing




> *Russian firm sues Boeing over Max jet, says defects hidden*Associated Press
> 
> 
> MOSCOW — A Russian aircraft leasing company that ordered 35 Boeing Max jets is suing the U.S. aircraft maker and seeking to cancel the deal, accusing Boeing of hiding defects in the plane that was grounded after two deadly crashes.
> 
> The Miami-based lawyer for the leasing company said Tuesday it is the first lawsuit filed against Boeing by a Max customer. He said he is talking to other companies about joining the case.
> 
> The lawsuit on behalf of Avia Capital Services was filed Monday in state court in Illinois, where Boeing is based. It claims that Boeing committed fraud and breach of contract and was negligent in how it designed and built the plane and convinced the Federal Aviation Administration to approve it.
> 
> ...

----------


## David48atTD

British Airways grounds nearly all flights for 48 hours as pilots strike over pay

*

Key points:*


British Airways said it had offered affected customers full refunds or the option to rebookQantas code-shares on a number of flights with British Airways from London to EuropeA further strike is pencilled in for September 27 

More Here

----------


## Chittychangchang

1700 flights cancelled in two days .

The 12.5% pay rise is not enough, even though they earn on average over £100k pa.

They want a percentage of the company profits.

If only we could be so unlucky :Smile: 

No wonder the trolley dolleys don't wear knickers. :sexy:

----------


## harrybarracuda

*British Airways cancels flights ahead of next pilots strike on September 27*

British Airways has begun cancelling hundreds of flights ahead of the next strike by pilots.

Tens of thousands of passengers are expected to be affected by the disruption on September 27.

The 24-hour walkout follows a two-day strike on Monday and Tuesday when 1,700 flights due to carry 195,000 passengers were cancelled, including more than 30 flights to and from Dublin Airport.

https://www.independent.ie/life/travel/travel-news/british-airways-cancels-flights-ahead-of-next-pilots-strike-on-september-27-38492675.html

----------


## OhOh

*Boeing Foresees Return Of The 737 MAX In November - But Not Everywhere*    The Boeing 737 MAX was expected to be flying again in October. Yesterday Boeing's CEO Dennis Muilenburg pushed that date to November:
Boeing chairman and chief executive Dennis Muilenburg on  Wednesday reiterated his projection that, despite concerns publicly  expressed by Europe’s air safety regulator, the 737 MAX should begin to  return to service around November 

Continues at:

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/0...here.html#more

A presentation by EASA highlighting the lack of response and solutions, from Boeing Airplanes, to their April 1st and July questions:
*Exchange of views** - European Union Aviation Safety Agency*
Patrick KY, Executive Director 

03 September 2019

Continues at:

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/cmsda...y-original.pdf

----------


## OhOh

*India plans its own tests of Boeing 737 MAX jets even if FAA clears them for takeoff in the US*


_          "India is set to conduct its own checks on Boeing’s 737 MAX jets  even if the US aviation regulator clears the grounded planes, reports  citing officials say.      
_
_The Federal Aviation  Administration (FAA), the certifying authority of US-made jets, is to  assess the planes’ safety before they can fly again after 737 MAXs were  grounded globally in March following two crashes that killed 346 people.
_
_Ongoing investigations by the FAA recently found that software and  sensors contributed to the pilots inability to control the planes.  Following the discovery, the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) last  week told the FAA it would have to run its own tests before approving  the 737 MAX for flying again. Now India is following suit, with the  Indian Directorate General of Civil Aviation reportedly about to  announce a similar measure.
_
_India plans to start its own  assessment of the jets by conducting test flights right after the FAA  declares them fit to fly, Bloomberg reported,  citing a person with direct knowledge of the matter. The news outlet  noted, however, that the country’s air safety regulator doesn’t expect  MAX jets to resume operation in India before 2020. The regulator is also  set to demand simulator training for all the pilots certified to fly  the MAX jets, CNBC reported, citing a senior official.
_
_SpiceJet  Ltd, India’s second-biggest airline, is among the biggest purchasers of  the aircraft in the country, with as many as 205 currently on order.  The company has been optimistic about the outcome of the checks,  predicting that MAX planes will resume flying soon.
_
_“They have fixed the issues in MCAS [flight control system of the  aircraft called Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System]. They  have told us that the plane will fly again by November. The  certification process should be completed by October,” a senior executive at SpiceJet said on condition of anonymity, as cited by CNBC.
_
_US-based  Boeing has suffered severe losses in profits since the grounding of its  best-selling MAX jets. With a large number of the pre-ordered planes  long expected by airlines worldwide, the manufacturer has already faced  several lawsuits demanding compensation for failed plane deliveries.
_
_Last  month, Boeing posted its largest-ever quarterly loss, calculating the  total cost of the 737 MAX crisis at over $8 billion. The company even  warned that it may have to shut down production of the grounded jet  completely if the regulators don’t come up with an assessment soon."

https://www.rt.com/business/468759-b...cks-grounding/
_

----------


## harrybarracuda

I think everyone is going to be testing the flying coffins out before they are free to fly outside the US again.

----------


## OhOh

It complicates the selling of through tickets of European, Asian, African and Swiss..... airlines flying into, and outbound from, ameristani airspace to a hub airport and flying onwards in an FAA "certified" MAX. Insurance, liability etc. 

I presume the flight ticket sites already have a "NO MAX" tick box available, ready to be added into their options list, if FAA proceed on certifying the non airworthy aircraft, on their own.

----------


## OhOh

It appears that the logistics of re-entering these 600+ MAX's back into serviceability, will take some time, irrespective  of what actually needs to be fixed to satisfy the certification needs.

*Look to 2013 787 grounding to see how Boeing will return MAX to service*


_"Sept. 13, 2019, © Leeham News: As Boeing prepares for  what it hopes is an imminent recertification of the 737 MAX from the  Federal Aviation Administration, how it will handle the logistics of  returning 381 grounded airplanes to service and delivering nearly 300  more undelivered 737s is key._ _One need look to the only other time a Boeing jetliner, the 787, was  grounded and how “One Boeing” coalesced to attack what was then its  largest logistical task for its commercial airplanes unit._

_The return to service of the 787 paled compared with the task facing  Boeing today. In 2013, there were only 50 787s grounded worldwide after  two lithium ion battery incidents: one fire and one near-fire, one on  the ground and the other as the airplane took off.
_
_In 2013, the production rate of the 787 was in the single digits per month. The 737 is being produced at a rate of 42/mo.
_
_In 2013, there were a few score of 787s parked around Everett’s Paine  Field awaiting delivery. Today, the nearly 600 737s are scattered  around four locations in Washington State, a Boeing facility in Texas  and various airline storage areas around the globe.
_
_In May 2013, I wrote a freelance piece for CNN’s website how Boeing  planned to return the 787 to service. This story may be found here._

*The task at hand*

_Boeing today has been mum about how it will handle the MAX return to service.
_
_It has publicly said it is hiring a few hundred temporary employees  to be located at Moses Lake (WA), where more than 100 MAXes are in  temporary storage.
_
_These technical people will be tasked with “un-pickling” the  airplanes: opening up seals on pitot tubes, air ducts, engines, etc.  Making sure fluids are pure and all control surfaces work. Powering up  the engines, APU. Making sure the airplanes are free of insects, rodents  and birds. The list goes on.
_
_Months of storage—the MAX was grounded March 13—complicate the tasks.
_
_These technical people include retired Boeing employees across a litany of skills.
_
*Marshaling One Boeing
*
_In 2013, the task of installing hardware to contain possible battery  fires and bringing back to life 50 787s was then described as tedious.  New batteries had to be installed, new containment boxes installed  around the batteries, new systems associated with the containment boxes  added and an exhaust hole drilled into the bottom of the fuselage.
_
_For MAX, the fixes to the MCAS and flight control system are software  updates that will take maybe a few hours to download. As of today, no  hardware fix is going to be required, although Europe’s safety  regulator, EASA, says a third Angle of Attack sensor of some kind may be  mandated.
_
_Boeing Commercial Aviation Services, the forerunner of Boeing Global  Services, took the lead. Personnel from Boeing Defense, Space &  Security were loaned to Boeing Commercial Aviation Services and CAS.
_
_“Because of the way the teams were going to have to be built, there  were some very specific skills that were needed,” CAS CEO Lou Mancini  told me in the 2013 CNN interview. “A good example would be engine run.  Within AOG we have two engine run folks but obviously we were going to  need more, so we did reach across the enterprise.
_
_“We reached out to our BDS (Boeing Defense, Space and Security)  counterparts. We reached out to our factory. We reached out to our  avionics functional test guys and the Everett flight line people really  helped. A vast majority of it came from the Everett flight line. They  are as close to the same skill set as we would require.”
_
*Dispersed around the world*

_Then, CAS had a team of 300 people in 10 teams dispersed around the  globe to service those 50 787s. Boeing had to transport up to 30,000 lbs  of tools and equipment, something not required for the MAX.
_
_“This was on such as large scale, this is probably the single largest  thing we had to focus on, the logistics behind being able to  accommodate the movement,” Boeing said then. “We moved equipment  sometimes several times to satisfy the customers.”
_
*Returning the MAX to Service*

_Boeing doesn’t have the parts and tooling logistics for the MAX that  was required for the 787. But the sheer number of airplanes creates a  different set of logistics challenges.
_
_The first MAXes returned to service will be newly produced ones from the Renton (WA) factory.
_
_These won’t have been “pickled,” and the software upgrades should be installed during final assembly.
_
_This is probably what Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg in thinking when  he says the MAX could return to service in the early fourth quarter.  Preparing the produced-but-undelivered airplanes for RTS and bringing  back to life the grounded airplanes will take longer.
_
_The level of pilot training required remains unclear and could affect the RTS."_

https://leehamnews.com/2019/09/13/look-to-2013-787-grounding-to-see-how-boeing-will-return-max-to-service/

One wonders on what basis are the "financial advisors" who set market share prices utilise, as the price doesn't appear to have moved in the past 6 months.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=ba+sha...ZI&form=MOZTSB

Obviously not airline or aircraft manufacturing knowledgable. Possibly the recent WTO ruling, re Airbus 'subsidies", if goldilocks adopts it, determines the price

https://leehamnews.com/2019/09/14/wt...-subsidy-case/

----------


## harrybarracuda

Bear in mind Boeing never solved the Screamliner battery problem.

They just packed them in a fireproof box.

----------


## Troy

^ The cause of the battery fires was never found.

Boeing made several design changes to the battery and its protection circuits. The fire proof box was the fail safe on top of these changes.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^ The cause of the battery fires was never found.


My point exactly.

----------


## David48atTD

Daxing international, said to be world’s largest single-building terminal a massive ‘starfish’ airport opens in Beijing 



China has opened a vast, multibillion-dollar airport in the country’s capital, in the run-up to a major political anniversary.
 Less than five years after construction began, the 450bn yuan (£50bn)  Daxing international airport was officially opened on Wednesday in a  ceremony attended by the Chinese leader, Xi Jinping.




 China is preparing to celebrate its National Day on 1 October,  marking 70 years since the founding of the People’s Republic of China,  against the backdrop of unrest in Hong Kong and a flagging economy.




https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-opens-beijing

---

Ummm ... where are the Solar Cells to power the joint?  I thought they were de rigueur in China these days?

----------


## panama hat

> Ummm ... where are the Solar Cells to power the joint? I thought they were de rigueur in China these days?


All show, glitz and glamour like so many buildings in China . . . hollow

----------


## nidhogg

> a massive starfish


Clearly modeled after my first wife then.

----------


## Klondyke

> Ummm ... where are the Solar Cells to power the joint? I thought they were de rigueur in China these days?


See 5:30 min.

----------


## Klondyke

> All show, glitz and glamour like so many buildings in China . . . hollow


Hollow = no solid. Would you like to have it more solid?

----------


## harrybarracuda

Yeah, looks like they should be able to arc a coin into an engine from those airbridges.

----------


## panama hat

> Hollow = no solid. Would you like to have it more solid?


If you'e been in China you'd know what that refers to.  Glitzy and shiny on the outside but the elevators don't work, the toilets don't have cisterns, 20% of the space is being used, electrical wires hang loose from the ceiling etc...

----------


## harrybarracuda

> If you'e been in China you'd know what that refers to.  Glitzy and shiny on the outside but the elevators don't work, the toilets don't have cisterns, 20% of the space is being used, electrical wires hang loose from the ceiling etc...


I think that was the forum fuckwit trying to be obtuse.

----------


## OhOh

I'm sure they utilised a "Chinese" flavour/approach, can't be accused of any IP theft that way.




> the toilets don't have cisterns


Possibly behind the wall panel, Less ability to tinker with or steal!

Where are the bum guns, open plastic "klong water" dustbins and plastic bowls, or just lots of corners or flowerbeds to utilise, they should take a leaf from rural China/ Thailand/Asia eh?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## OhOh

Two different views of Boeing's proposal for it's 737 rehabilitation.

https://leehamnews.com/2019/09/25/boeing-board-aerospace-safety-committee-recommends-realignment-enhancement-of-procedures/

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/0...e-737-max.html

----------


## nora tittoff

Silk air flew one their 737 max 8 to alice springs today without passengers to store in a dry climate.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Two different views of Boeing's proposal for it's 737 rehabilitation.
> 
> https://leehamnews.com/2019/09/25/boeing-board-aerospace-safety-committee-recommends-realignment-enhancement-of-procedures/
> 
> https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/0...e-737-max.html


Any summary?

----------


## OhOh

_"Sure sex is great, but have you ever had your suitcase arrive first on a baggage carousel?"_

----------


## OhOh

> Any summary?


One is racist and exclusive.

The other isn't.

----------


## OhOh

_"Doubling capacity by having aircraft take off from both ends of the  runway didn’t go well. You learn something new every day in this job!."_

----------


## harrybarracuda

> _"Sure sex is great, but have you ever had your suitcase arrive first on a baggage carousel?"_



Many times. Us at the front have special tags on our baggage saying "Put this on the carousel before the proles arrive" or words to that effect.

----------


## Troy

^ I thought you travelled first class 'arry....

...staff should be picking up your luggage while you're taking a shower in the lounge.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^ I thought you travelled first class 'arry....
> 
> ...staff should be picking up your luggage while you're taking a shower in the lounge.


Have you tried finding a flight with First these days?

You don't fly much, do you?

----------


## Troy

> Have you tried finding a flight with First these days?
> 
> You don't fly much, do you?


 :rofl:   :rofl:   :rofl: 

I think my logbook over the last 40 years might surprise you.

Flights are more limited, depending on distance, airline and aircraft type. I don't bother but I'm not the one gloating over being at the pointy end.

----------


## David48atTD

> ... being at the pointy end.



... I can but dream  :Burnout:

----------


## Klondyke

> You don't fly much, do you?


Who does not fly "much", has no right to speak out here, has he?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> I think my logbook over the last 40 years might surprise you.
> 
> Flights are more limited, depending on distance, airline and aircraft type. I don't bother but I'm not the one gloating over being at the pointy end.


They're not actually. Most international airlines now follow the US model of "First" and "Coach", with essentially two cabins, Business and Economy.

The exceptions are very long haul on some routes and the A380 which is being phased out.

Even Qatar Airways only do Biz and Pleb cabins on DOH-LAX.

Maybe you don't see that sitting in row 53.

----------


## misskit

*Tway Air to begin flights between Seoul-Incheon and Chiang Mai*Another airline is to join the glowingly popular Seoul-Incheon/ Chiang Mai route with South Korean airline Tway Air to begin flights on the route before the end of the year.


The airline, previously known as Hansung Airlines, is a low-cost airline based in Seoul. The airline runs a fleet consisting exclusively of Boeing 737-800 aircraft.


Within this year, we plan to expand [to] the Incheon-Chiang Mai and Incheon-Hong Kong routes to better meet rising demand in the regions, a Tway Air official told The Korea Times.


National carrier Korean Air currently flies the route with Jeju Air, another low-cost carrier having started servicing the route in September.


The demand to fly to destinations such as Chiang Mai by South Koreans is being fueled by an ongoing dispute between the country and Japan that has seen Koreans abandoning travel to Japan for other destinations.


108,776 passengers from South Korea flew into Chiang Mai International Airport in 2016, the last year numbers are available.

https://chiangmaione.com/tway-air-to...hiang-mai-5034

----------


## harrybarracuda

Got stuck behind half a dozen old Korean chaps in the Exchange at the Night Bazaar once.

They were cashing Bt1,000's in piles a foot thick.

I don't know if that was for Karaoke or what but they seemed to be looking forward to their trip.

----------


## OhOh

*Boeing pushed FAA to relax 737 MAX certification requirements for crew alerts*_"In 2014, Boeing convinced the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)  to relax the safety standards for the new 737 MAX related to cockpit  alerts that would warn pilots if something went wrong during flight,  according to documents reviewed by the Seattle Times._ _Seeking an exception, Boeing relied on a special FAA rule to  successfully argue that full compliance with the latest federal  requirements would be “impractical” for the MAX and would cost too much."



_The document with the "normally" required compliance struck through with red lines.

More here;

https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...r-crew-alerts/

----------


## OhOh

Add another 737model, type NG this time.
*Boeing’s 737 in another pickle*  	     	By Bjorn Fehrm


_"October 1, 2019, ©. Leeham News: The FAA has issued  an Air Worthiness Directive (AD) for high time Boeing 737 NGs, requiring  immediate inspections for cracks in their wing attachments called  pickle forks.
_
_The cracks were discovered on high time aircraft which were torn down  for conversion to freighters. The affected 737 types are NG only; the  MAX and Classic have a different wing attachment design. The P-8  Poseidon, a derivative of the NG, also is unaffected."

_pickle fork_s =_ Part of_ t_he fuselage hoops bolted to the wing connection box.

More at _

https://leehamnews.com/2019/09/30/boeings-737-in-another-pickle/



_

----------


## harrybarracuda

It just goes to show that they should have designed a wholly new fit-for-purpose aircraft and not tried to squeeze more blood out of a 50+ year old stone.

----------


## OhOh

*JATR study “damning” to Boeing, FAA, New York Times says*


*Oct. 11, 2019*: The international study group that  was named to examine the certification of the Boeing 737 MAX and the  MCAS system was issued today.

https://leehamnews.com/2019/10/11/ja...rk-times-says/


 The New York Times obtained an advance copy. It wrote that:

_"A  breakdown in the nation’s regulatory system and poor communication from  Boeing compromised the safety of the 737 Max jet before it crashed  twice in five months and killed 346 people, according to a damning  report released Friday.
_
_Boeing did not  adequately explain to federal regulators how a crucial new system on  the plane worked, the report says. That system was found to have played a  role in the accidents in Indonesia last October and Ethiopia in March.
_
_The  Federal Aviation Administration relied heavily on Boeing employees to  vouch for the safety of the Max and lacked the ability to effectively  analyze much of what Boeing  did share about the new plane, according to the report by a multiagency  task force. The system of delegation is now being scrutinized by  lawmakers in the wake of the tragedies.
_
_Boeing  employees who worked on behalf of the F.A.A. faced “undue pressures” at  times during the plane’s development because of “conflicting  priorities,” according to the report._

_“This  report confirms our very worst fears about a broken system,” Senator  Richard Blumenthal, Democrat of Connecticut, said in an interview. “To  put the fox in charge of the henhouse never made any sense, and now we  see the deeply tragic consequences.”"

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/11/b...g-737-max.html
_
The full study may be downloaded here: 

https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...019-FINAL.html


Appears to be a comprehensive enquiry with root and branch recomendations. If instigated worldwide by all certifying agencies and plane manufacturers.

Lots of comments on the Leeham news site. 

Many suggesting other Boeings are equally questionable. Also whether the other certifying agencies, globally, are currently more or less opaque. 

A limited number are still asserting, Boeing test pilots from an "exceptional country" across the Pacific, have had no problems flying them, after being briefed on what they will be testing the next day [so far].  :Smile: 

Short SWA and Ryanair?

----------


## misskit

*Vietnam Airlines to offer in-flight wifi service*Hanoi (VNA) – National flag carrier Vietnam Airlines will offer wifi services in some of its flights starting from October 10, becoming the first Vietnamese airline to do so, announced the carrier on October 7.


Passengers will be able to access the service in Vietnam Airlines’ flights using Airbus A350 in the air routes linking Hanoi with Ho Chi Minh City, Shanghai, Osaka; and Ho Chi Minh City with Osaka and Singapore.


At a price between 2.95 - 29.95 USD, passengers can choose suitable packages with a maximum capacity of 80 MB.


From the launch of the new services to the end of this year, the carrier will offer 30 minutes of free wifi which enables passengers to send text messages during their flights.


The airline will work to offer the service in other Boeing 787 and Airbus A350 aircraft with faster speed in the coming time.


Earlier, Vietnam Airlines was the first to provide wireless-streaming services on its Airbus A321neo fleet.


It is now operating 94 routes to 21 domestic and 29 international destinations with an average of 400 flights per day, connecting the world’s major cities to travel destinations in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, and Myanmar.

National News Bureau Of Thailand

----------


## harrybarracuda

> At a price between 2.95 - 29.95 USD, passengers can choose suitable packages with a maximum capacity of *80 MB*.


Whoa there, take it easy Vietnam Airlines!

----------


## harrybarracuda

Chinky parasites at it again. Mind you we all know that's how they fast-tracked the project. Thank fuck the thing is more dangerous than a 737MAX.





> A coordinated cyber espionage campaign running over several years helped China to acquire intellectual property needed to design and build its own C919 airplane.
> 
> That's according to a report by CrowdStrike [PDF], which claims that this particular cyber espionage campaign was part of China's coordinated effort to bridge the technology gap in the aviation industry and to help the Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China (Comac) build its C919 airplane.
> 
> According to CrowdStrike, the ambitious hacking operation also saved billions of dollars for the Asian giant by copying technical details of the components that were eventually used in the C919 airliner.
> 
> The development of China's Comac C919 twinjet aircraft was started in 2008, and after several delays, the plane finally completed its first maiden flight in 2017. Although C919 is touted as a China-made airliner, it uses a large number of components supplied by aerospace companies from North American and Europe.
> 
> According to CrowdStrike, between 2010 and 2015, its researchers tracked a Chinese hacking group it dubbed Turbine Panda, which carried out a series of cyber attacks against a number of hi-tech companies, which supplied components for C919 plane.
> ...

----------


## OhOh

> That's according to a report by CrowdStrike


 :rofl: 




> US authorities have arrested at least four individuals


Any idea of when they will be in court, or are they just shipped off to Caribbean Islad for R&R?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Any idea of when they will be in court, or are they just shipped off to Caribbean Islad for R&R?


I realise you don't understand how the industry operates, but if Crowdstrike say it's the chinkies, it's the chinkies.

Their only absence of proof is of the link between the group and the government, but who else is going to nick aircraft tech, you bumbling fucking idiot?

 :Smile:

----------


## David48atTD

Qantas tests passenger limits — and pilot brain patterns — on world’s longest nonstop flight



*Key Points*
The 20-hour New York-Sydney nonstop will be the world’s longest flight.Qantas pilots will provide urine samples and wear brain-monitoring devices to test fatigue levels.Boeing and Airbus haven’t yet developed aircraft modifications to perform the 20-hour flight with a full payload. 


https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/18/qant...st-flight.html

----------


## harrybarracuda

I did the 16.5hr DOH-LAX a couple of years back and it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. I slept the first 5, and then spent the rest watching movies (bring your own!), eating, catnapping and doing a few laps of the cabin occasionally to stretch the legs. I purposely avoided looking at the clock and when they announced we were commencing descent coming down the West coast, I was surprised at how quickly it had gone. Landed early afternoon, so we had a lengthy stroll around Long Beach that night to give the circulation a good run out as well. 

Mind you I was waking up ridiculously early for almost a week.

----------


## misskit

*Thai Airways at risk of closure, president says*Thai Airways International (THAI) president Sumeth Damrongchaitham said on Tuesday that staff must cooperate with the airline's rehabilitation efforts because it is in a crisis and faces possible closure.


He sent his message to THAI executives during a training session at the airline's headquarters.


"Today I want staff to be united to overcome the obstacles. Otherwise, the national airline must close down. There is still time for a solution, but there is not much time," Mr Sumeth said.



He said that THAI had lost its market leadership on several routes to competitors, citing northern routes that had generated a third of THAI's revenue but were now dominated by low-cost airlines.


"The competition is very fierce this year," Mr Sumeth said. "THAI is really in a crisis. Next year it must do its best. If staff are still unaware and do nothing, they will not have enough time to fight back. Today very little time remains. 
Today there is no comfort zone. Everyone will die if the vessel sinks," .


THAI would cut costs by reducing the salaries of managerial staff and following a zero inventory policy at its catering department, he said.

"There will be no other rewards for the staff, because the top prize is the survival of the company," Mr Sumeth said.


In the first half of this year, THAI posted a loss of 6.44 billion baht, raising its accumulated loss to 280 billion baht. It employs more than 20,000 people.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business...president-says

----------


## harrybarracuda

> *Thai Airways at risk of closure, president says*


And I bet him and the rest of the leeches that "run" the company are still giving all their mates first and business freebies.

----------


## Troy

Lion Air accident report is hot off the press.

An interesting read....

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Lion Air accident report is hot off the press.
> 
> An interesting read....



That should raise a big red flag.




> The report also found that a critical sensor providing data to an anti-stall system had been miscalibrated by a repair shop in Florida and there were strong indications it had not been tested during installation by Lion Air maintenance staff.
> 
> Lion Air should have grounded the jet following similar faults on the plane’s previous flight, the report said, adding that _31 pages were missing from the airline’s October maintenance logs_. Lion Air did not respond to a request for comment.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...nd-pilot-error

----------


## Troy

^ Having correctly identified the problem immediately after take-off, neither crew carried out the correct memory items to establish recovery. That's a basic training failure to add to the design failure.

It is why I don't fly with the cheap monkey airlines, preferring well trained pilots to cheap tickets, good entertainment or even good food.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^ Having correctly identified the problem immediately after take-off, neither crew carried out the correct memory items to establish recovery. That's a basic training failure to add to the design failure.
> 
> It is why I don't fly with the cheap monkey airlines, preferring well trained pilots to cheap tickets, good entertainment or even good food.


Yes, and it doesn't say a lot that they have deleted logs that probably show they were not performing proper maintenance procedures: Another sign that they put profits before safety.

----------


## OhOh

> The report also found that a critical sensor providing  data to an anti-stall system had been miscalibrated by a repair shop in  Florida and there were strong indications it had not been tested during  installation by Lion Air maintenance staff.
> 
> Lion Air should have grounded the jet following similar faults on the  plane’s previous flight, the report said, adding that 31 pages were  missing from the airline’s October maintenance logs. Lion Air did not  respond to a request for comment.


The "critical" sensor was only *critical*, due the Boeing designed, installed, MCAS system on the 737 MAX, not on non MCAS planes.

 Were the supplier aware of it's "criticality"?

Was there a big warning sign, 

"NOT TO BE FITTED TO SINGLE AOA BOEING 737 MAX AIRCRAFT?"

Should the supplier be held responsible?

Was the engineer aware of it's "criticality"?

"WAS THEIR A WARNING "NOT TO USE UNLESS THE "PREFERRED TEST GEAR WAS UTILISED?"

"UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES FIT THE REPLACEMENT AND TEST USING THE ALTERNATE TEST PROCEDURES?

Should the maintenance engineer be held responsible?

Were the pilots aware of it's "criticality"?

"WHERE THESE GUYS EVEN AWARE OF MCAS, HAD THEY BEEN TRAINED, WAS NOT IN THEIR AVAILABLE COCKPIT MANUALS OR HAD THEY BEEN TOLD "IT'S JUST ANOTHER 737 - OFF YOU GO"?

Should the pilots be held responsible?


I would suggest none of the above were aware of the possible "criticality" and consequences.

Due  to, a Boeing management's corporate decision, to sell aircraft to, who lied  too airline executives, they new were uncertifiable,  lied too global  certifying agencies, except by lying to them all.

In addition by not  making any of the above professionals aware of MCAS's existence, provide type specific training and type specific simulations by  Boeing when connected to MCAS in the plane's complete "certified" flight envelope and  it's, now proven, deadly affect.

One comment from another site, listing many failures prior to MCAS being added:

"AOA’s aren’t that reliable, and *didn’t need to be before MCAS* depended  on them to fly the aircraft .. look at any accident database for AOA  errors
for example..

https://avrodex.com/?q=aoa

https://leehamnews.com/2019/10/25/bj...es/#more-31457

The reason that this is inexcusable is because for many years of AOA  systems have constantly failed and because, the affected planes did not have Boeing MCAS,  pilots, suppliers and maintenance workers became accustomed to these  types of "flying aids/instrument failures" and historically were able to  fly the planes manually.

Don't try your racist game when Boeing  intentionally/by design sold unsafe planes to make others lose sales of  certified airworthy alternatives.

The AOA  was an aid, the pilots were trained to accept "problems" with the AOA and could control the airplane manually. 

Unfortunately  the Boeing MCAS system produced such a large number of alarms, flashing  buttons, horns going off, buzzers etc. for which no airline pilot  flying Boeing 737 MAX pilots had been trained to react too, 100's of  lives were lost.

From the actual report as published by Flight Global:

_"Indonesian investigation authority KNKT says a 21°  misalignment in the left-hand sensor activated the stick-shaker,  generated airspeed and altitude disagree warnings, and triggered the  controversial Manoeuvring Characteristics Augmentation System before the  aircraft came down on 29 October last year.

__The  sensor had been replaced in Denpasar the day before, 28 October, after  the aircraft had experienced repetitive air data problems on previous  flights, including speed and altitude flags on the captain's primary  instrument display.

_
_No spare sensor had been  available in Denpasar, so the engineer ordered one from Batam Aero  Technic, located in Batam, and the aircraft was grounded in the  meantime.

_
_Once the replacement sensor was fitted, the maintenance manual required an installation test using one of two methods.

_
_The recommended method involves using a specific piece of test equipment which was unavailable in Denpasar, says the inquiry.

_
_It  states that the engineer resorted to the alternative test method which  involves deflecting the angle-of-attack vane to various positions –  fully up, centre, and fully down – while verifying indications on the  built-in test equipment module of the stall management yaw damper  computer.

_
_But the inquiry says the engineer "did  not record" the angle-of-attack values shown on the computer during the  installation test – despite this being required by Batam Aero Technic  procedures.

_
_The engineer in Denpasar claimed the  test result was "satisfactory", says the inquiry, and released the  aircraft for flight, believing the problems had been resolved._
_But  KNKT says investigators could not conclude whether the installation  test had been successful, pointing out that the sensor was subsequently  found to have a 21° bias.

_
_Boeing and the US  National Transportation Safety Board carried out a sensor installation  test, using the same alternative method employed in Denpasar, with a  sensor which had been deliberately misaligned by 33° before fitting.

_
_"The  test result indicated that a misaligned [sensor] would not pass the  installation test as the [angle-of-attack] values shown on the [stall  management yaw damper] computer were out of tolerance," says the  inquiry.

_
_This out-of-tolerance situation resulted  in a 'sensor invalid' message on the test equipment module, it adds,  verifying that this alternative testing method "should have" identified a  21° misalignment on the Lion Air jet's sensor.

_
_Although  the engineer in Denpasar provided photos of the stall management yaw  damper unit during an installation test, as evidence of a satisfactory  result, the inquiry states that the photos were "not valid evidence"  because they were not related to the aircraft involved in the accident

_
_The result of the sensor installation test "could not be determined with any certainty", it adds.

_
_Analysis  of flight-data recorder information shows that, after the jet was  released for flight from Denpasar to Jakarta, the values recorded by the  replaced left-hand angle-of-attack sensor were 21° higher than those of  the right-hand sensor.
_
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/lion-737-max-inquiry-uncertain-over-swapped-sensor-t-461809/


The final report can be found here:

http://knkt.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_a...l%20Report.pdf

----------


## harrybarracuda

That's all well and good but I'd suggest that 31 pages of maintenance logs went missing for a reason.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Meanwhile a bit more house cleaning:




> Boeing replaced the head of its commercial airplane unit Tuesday as the manufacturer scrambles to convince regulators to allow its 737 Max plane back in service after two fatal crashes that killed 346 people.
> 
> 
> Kevin McAllister is the senior-most executive to leave in the wake of the catastrophes. The commercial airplane division has been immersed in a crisis for nearly a year following the first of two 737 Max crashes. A second 737 Max went down less than five months later, prompting a worldwide grounding of Boeing’s bestselling aircraft. All 346 people aboard the two flights were killed.
> 
> 
> 
> McAllister, who had led the unit since 2016, is being replaced by Stan Deal, a three-decade Boeing employee who most recently led its global services business, Boeing said.
> 
> ...


Obviously never recovered from being left at home on his own as a child.

----------


## OhOh

*FAA pulls licence of shop that repaired crashed 737 Max's sensor*_"__The US Federal Aviation Administration has revoked  the aircraft repair station licence held by Xtra Aerospace, the Florida  shop that repaired the angle-of-attack (AOA) indicator investigators say  contributed to the 2018 crash of a Lion Air Boeing 737 Max.

__The  FAA ordered that the shop's licence be pulled on 25 October, the same  day Indonesia's National Transportation Safety Committee issued a report  concluding that Xtra likely calibrated the AOA sensor incorrectly.

_
_"Xtra  failed to comply with requirements to repair only aircraft parts on its  list of parts acceptable to the FAA that it was capable of repairing,"  says the FAA. "The company also failed to comply with procedures in its  repair station manual for implementing a capability list in accordance  with… regulations."

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...ed-737-461804/
_

----------


## OhOh

*Boeing responded to the final investigation report of Lion Air Flight 610…*_Boeing issued the following statement regarding the release today of the  final investigation report of Lion Air Flight 610 by Indonesia’s  National Transportation Safety Committee (KNKT):

“On behalf of  everyone at Boeing, I want to convey our heartfelt condolences to the  families and loved ones of those who lost their lives in these  accidents. We mourn with Lion Air, and we would like to express our  deepest sympathies to the Lion Air family,” said Boeing President &  CEO Dennis Muilenburg. “These tragic events have deeply affected us all  and we will always remember what happened.”

“We commend  Indonesia’s National Transportation Safety Committee for its extensive  efforts to determine the facts of this accident, the contributing  factors to its cause and recommendations aimed toward our common goal  that this never happens again.”

“We are addressing the KNKT’s  safety recommendations, and taking actions to enhance the safety of the  737 MAX to prevent the flight control conditions that occurred in this  accident from ever happening again. Safety is an enduring value for  everyone at Boeing and the safety of the flying public, our customers,  and the crews aboard our airplanes is always our top priority. We value  our long-standing partnership with Lion Air and we look forward to  continuing to work together in the future.”

Boeing experts,  working as technical advisors to the U.S. National Transportation Safety  Board, have supported the KNKT over the course of the investigation.  The company’s engineers have been working with the US Federal Aviation  Administration (FAA) and other global regulators to make software  updates and other changes, taking into account the information from the  KNKT’s investigation.

Since this accident, the 737 MAX and its  software are undergoing an unprecedented level of global regulatory  oversight, testing and analysis. This includes hundreds of simulator  sessions and test flights, regulatory analysis of thousands of  documents, reviews by regulators and independent experts and extensive  certification requirements.

Over the past several months Boeing  has been making changes to the 737 MAX. Most significantly, Boeing has  redesigned the way Angle of Attack (AoA) sensors work with a feature of  the flight control software known as Maneuvering Characteristics  Augmentation System (MCAS). Going forward, MCAS will compare information  from both AoA sensors before activating, adding a new layer of  protection.

In addition, MCAS will now only turn on if both AoA  sensors agree, will only activate once in response to erroneous AOA, and  will always be subject to a maximum limit that can be overridden with  the control column.

These software changes will prevent the flight control conditions that occurred in this accident from ever happening again.

In  addition, Boeing is updating crew manuals and pilot training, designed  to ensure every pilot has all of the information they need to fly the  737 MAX safely.

Boeing continues to work with the FAA and other  regulatory agencies worldwide on the certification of the software  update and training program to safely return the 737 MAX to service. "

https://www.crewroom.net/single-post...t-610%E2%80%A6
_

----------


## harrybarracuda

> *Boeing responded to the final investigation report of Lion Air Flight 610…*


Well it shows how aware they are of the public's perception of them that they didn't try and hide behind the pilot and maintenance issues.

----------


## Jack meoff

So the report blames who?

Quick question before Troy gets his log book out  :rofl: 

Monkeys

----------


## harrybarracuda

> So the report blames who?
> 
> Quick question before Troy gets his log book out 
> 
> Monkeys


Like most reports, it (rightly) blames a variety of coinciding events, but most of the blame is laid on Boeing and the FAA.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Thee minutes quicker. Wow.




> The UK's second biggest airport, Gatwick, is trialing a new system for boarding passengers on planes - with those sitting next to windows getting on first.
> 
> The two month trial aims to test a variety of ways to get passengers into their seats, to find out which is quickest and gives the best experience for passengers.
> 
> The first week of the trial, which involves a small number of Easyjet flights, has seen the average time taken to fill up the plane cut from 18 minutes to 15 minutes.
> 
> An airport spokesman said: "That might not sound like a big difference, but over the course of a day it all adds up."
> 
> As part of the trial, the seat numbers of those who can board are displayed on a digital display rather than called out over a tannoy.
> ...

----------


## OhOh

Are Easyjet guaranteeing enough o/head luggage space? Which many a time is the sole reason for wanting on first?

----------


## David48atTD

Boeing 737 cracks: union calls on Qantas to ground entire 737 fleet for investigation 

 Engineers say 33 planes should be grounded after US aviation  regulator asks airlines worldwide to check 737NG fleets for cracking in  ‘pickle fork’


Qantas Boeing 737-800 aircraft on the tarmac at Adelaide airport. The  airline has ordered urgent checks on its fleet after a crack was  discovered on one plane. Photograph: David Gray/Reuters 

Australia’s aircraft engineers association has called on Qantas to ground all of its Boeing 737 aircraft after cracks were discovered in one of its planes.
 Steve Purvinas, the federal secretary of the Australian Licensed  Aircraft Engineers Association (ALAEA), said the fleet of 33 should be  “grounded until such time that Qantas can establish which aircraft are safe and which aircraft aren’t”.

 According to Purvinas, the crack was discovered in a part of the  plane known as the “pickle fork”, which is part of the landing gear.
 “It is a primary structure which takes the load off the wing,” he  told the ABC on Thursday. “This could cause loss of control of an  aircraft, and Qantas shouldn’t be flying them.”

 “The first [crack] found on a Qantas aircraft was about an inch long,  it’s very small. But these things do propagate very quickly when  they’re under load…It’s when that grows, and that grows very quickly,  that you have problems.”

https://www.theguardian.com/australi...d-in-one-plane

----------


## David48atTD

The pickle fork, named so because of its resemblance to the kitchen  utensil, is a component that helps attach a planes fuselage to its wing  structure, helping to manage the stress, torque and aerodynamic forces  that bend the connection between the wings and the body of the jet.  

Though no crashes or incidents have yet been attributed to the cracked  pickle forks, the consequences would be dire should the mechanism fail  mid-flight



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...al-device.html

----------


## harrybarracuda

Yeah, that bit is quite important, isn't it.

Another fuck up from trying to avoid having to design and build a new aircraft - TO SAVE MONEY.

Bigger wings and bigger engines on a shitty old 1960's design.

----------


## Troy

^ It appears that Boeing changed the manufacturing process to save costs. Bean counters fail again on a plane that already cuts corners...it doesn't have main undercarriage doors to cut costs...

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^ It appears that Boeing changed the manufacturing process to save costs. Bean counters fail again on a plane that already cuts corners...it doesn't have main undercarriage doors to cut costs...


Boeing put profit before safety.

That's the culture that needs changing.

----------


## OhOh

Trolley dollies will save the day.

*American Airlines flight attendants stand up to Boeing CEO on 737 MAX*

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boeing-737max-american-airline-unions/american-airlines-flight-attendants-voice-737-max-concerns-to-boeing-ceo-letter-idUSKBN1XA2JO?il=0



Flexing their muscles, Pubococcygeus and Lliococcygeus, in sympathy.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...lvic_Floor.jpg

----------


## Klondyke

*$160mn spent & 5 years in the making: Netanyahu’s Air Force One malfunctions AHEAD of test flight

*Israel’s first-ever Air Force One has suffered a brake malfunction, ahead of its first test flight. The ambitious project, conceived by PM Benjamin Netanyahu five years ago, has repeatedly drawn criticism over its staggering cost.

The Boeing 767-300ER jet, which will be shared by the country’s president and prime minister and used on overseas trips, is expected to make its first test flight on Sunday at Ben Gurion International Airport in Tel Aviv. The eagerly awaited takeoff was somewhat marred on Thursday, when the plane experienced an apparent braking system malfunction.

One of the aircraft’s wheels began emitting smoke during the runway tests, triggering a massive response from the emergency services. Fortunately, their help was not needed and the situation ended with no injuries or damage, according to local media reports.

READ MORE: Up to 50 Boeing planes grounded globally after wing-related cracks discovered

The aircraft, destined to become the country's very first Air Force One, was ordered at Netanyahu’s request five years ago and, since then, the construction has repeatedly drawn criticism over its ballooning costs. The project's price tag has more than doubled over the years – it grew from a hefty sum of about $77 million to a truly eye-watering $164 million.

https://www.rt.com/news/472284-israe...lfunction-test

----------


## OhOh

An audio interview with one of the most experienced flight performance "certifiers" discussing the then super-planes of the UK. The V Bombers and Concorde.

All had some forms of computer control, all had "stability" problems, but all eventually went in to service either for the military or civilian operators.

Entertaining to hear of his experiences and regrets. His work was only of the flight performance and limits, not structural or engines.

Recorded in 1992 so the language and interviewing technique are by today's standards "mild". A question and the interviewed responding with their knowledge. 

One question was regarding the ability of Concorde's ability to remain stable, if two engines failed.

 The reply indicated the simple pilot's response not only to one engine on opposite wings failing at the same time, but also two engines on the same wing failing. Again a non event for the pilot to remain in control. He illustrated a comparable USA military 4 engined military plane from the same era, The Hustler", which allegedly disintegrated in the 2 engine/one wing failure scenario.

The interviewed also gave his opinion of his foreign testing/certifying contemporaries who at the time were individual country based as opposed to the current merged organisations. This is the last five minutes is his interview. Generally very positive except for .....

Not much has changed it seems for nearly 30 years.

*The D. P. Davies Interviews on Concorde and the V-bombers.


*
_“The test pilots’ test pilot”, former CAA Chief Test  Pilot D. P. Davies talks frankly about the civil aircraft that he put  through his paces before being certified as safe in the UK.
_
_In the  last of four podcasted interviews the author of commercial pilots bible  “Handling the big jets”, recalls the time he was asked to fly the Avro  Vulcan, the Vickers Valiant, the Handley Page Victor V-bombers and the Concorde.
_
_The interview was conducted by Rodney Giesler in 1992 and edited by Mike Stanberry FRAeS."

https://soundcloud.com/aerosociety-p...-the-v-bombers

_

----------


## cisco999

> If it is any consolation that accident occurred back in 1977 and is still the deadliest crash in aviation history with 583 people dead.


And was easily avoidable.

----------


## HuangLao

> Boeing put profit before safety.
> 
> That's the culture that needs changing.



Not likely, though....

----------


## OhOh

> Not likely, though....


A report of the US politicle hearings, a distracting spectacle for the masses as the country descends into anarchy.

*Pontifications: Congressional hearings on Boeing dominated by grandstanding–but damning documents revealed*


"_Senate hearing largely theater.
_
_House hearing has grandstanding, but substance, too.
__House reveals some damning documents.__Muilenburg claims no knowledge of legal strategy, but top lawyer reports directly to him.
_ 
_Nov. 4, 2019, © Leeham News: Last week’s  Congressional hearings about the Boeing 737 MAX crisis was just as I  expected: theatre, lots of grandstanding, little substance and testimony  that elicited little in the way of new information._
_The US Senate hearing was a perfect example of playing to the television by many Senators.
_
_The House hearing certainly had its share, but in more lucid moments,  some House members produced new documents that were especially damning  to Boeing.
_
_Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg and John Hamilton, VP and chief  engineer, did no harm to Boeing, which was probably the prime objective.  (Hamilton is no relation to me.)_
_Muilenburg did harm to himself, however, and some Members of Congress landed some damning blows._

*Senate hearing*

_The Senate hearing produced nothing new. The Senators didn’t offer  documents or information that could contribute to finding out anything  or which could lead to fixing the myriad of contributing factors to the  certification of the MAX, development of MCAS and the two accidents._
_Montana Sen. John Tester was spot on when he observed Muilenburg  “pivoted” on direct questions, noting that as a politician, he, Testor,  “knows a pivot when I see it.”_
_Texas Sen. Ted Cruz, former courtroom litigator that he is, drilled Muilenburg on the now-infamous Forkner text messages._
_But otherwise, the Senators’ performance seemed geared more for their  five minutes on TV than in any real interest in safety matters. Wide  shots later showed several empty Senator seats—those having left after  their five minutes of TV time.
_
*House hearing*

_The House members did their share of grandstanding, too, but they  took their job and this hearing far more seriously than the Senate (a  low bar, to be sure)._
_The questions to Muilenburg and Hamilton were far more pointed, far  more substantive and confrontational. Some House members produced  documents that had not been previously revealed, some of which were  especially damning to Boeing’s approach to developing and certifying  MCAS._
_There were repeated calls for Muilenburg to resign and one that he  give up his compensation ($23m last year). It’s tough to tell how much  of this was theatre and how much of this was genuine (although, clearly,  one suggestion from a former CEO/mid-size business owner was obviously  sincere).
_
*Muilenburg*

_Muilenburg’s responses, however, were cringe-worthy._
_The Board of Directors sets his compensation, he repeatedly said. The Board of Directors removed his chairman’s title.
_
_This coming from the same man who repeatedly said he’s accountable and the buck stops with him._
_Muilenburg may be technically correct in both responses, but there is  nothing preventing him from donating his compensation to a victim’s  fund or scholarships or something. He’s rich enough already that he can  afford to do so.
_
_He can also submit his resignation, something he says he hasn’t done._
_Regardless of the merits of either suggestion, his passing the buck to the Board had terrible optics._
_But, like the infomercial, that’s not all.
_
*“I know nothing”*

_When asked about Boeing’s legal strategy, reported in newspapers,  that it wants to move all lawsuits out of the US to Indonesia or  Ethiopia, where liability awards are a fraction of those in the US,  Muilenburg professed complete ignorance. He acknowledged awareness of  the newspaper reports.
_
_Off camera, the incredulity of a couple of the House members was clear.
_
_I couldn’t agree more.
_
_How Muilenburg, the president, CEO and at the time also the chairman,  could not be aware of Boeing’s legal strategy is beyond belief.
_
_Let’s go back to May 1, when Boeing announced Michael Luttig would handle all MAX legal matters. The press release said:
__
Boeing names Luttig senior counselor and senior advisor
_
_Boeing today named J. Michael Luttig to  the newly-created position of counselor and senior advisor to Boeing  Chairman, President and CEO Dennis Muilenburg and the Boeing board of  directors. Brett Gerry succeeds Luttig as general counsel. Both changes  are effective immediately.
_
_Luttig, 64, who has served as general  counsel since joining the company in 2006, will manage all legal matters  associated with the Lion Air Flight 610 and Ethiopian Airlines Flight  302 accidents. He also will serve as counselor and senior advisor to  Muilenburg and the Boeing board of directors on these and other special  matters. Luttig continues to hold the title of executive vice president  and remains on the company’s Executive Council.
_
_“During his 13 years of service at  Boeing, Judge Luttig has built the finest legal team in the world and  delivered an unparalleled record of success for the company,” Muilenburg  said. “Judge Luttig is not only a brilliant legal mind, but also a  critical voice on all the important issues and opportunities facing our  company.”
_
_“He continues to be a trusted partner and advisor as he steps into this new role.”
_
_Luttig is counselor and senior advisor to  Muilenburg. He will manage all legal matters relating to the Lion Air  and Ethiopian crashes. He remains part of the executive council.
_
_And Muilenburg claims he knows nothing about legal strategy?
_
_It’s mind-boggling.
_
_Boeing HQ did not respond to a request for comment.
_
*The missing links*

_There were, however, some missing links in the hearings: the FAA and Congress itself._
_Recognizing that these hearings were about listening to Boeing,  nevertheless the few questions about the FAA’s role in the certification  and review of MCAS and the MAX was not adequately pursued.  Unfortunately, Muilenburg stuck to the messaging that Boeing complied  with regulations and ADOs (the designated FAA representatives that are  Boeing employees) did their jobs.
_
_This was an opportunity for Muilenburg to say things could be done to improve the system and offer concrete examples._
_It was also a chance for Muilenburg to hit home the fact that if  Congress wants the FAA to do more, Congress needs to fund the FAA  adequately.
_
_Of course, this would have been politically incorrect and I understand why he wouldn’t want to go down this rabbit hole.
_
_But Congress is every bit as culpable. When the FAA can’t even get  its own reauthorization act approved by Congress, which would not only  fund safety but improvements to Air Traffic Control, Congress deserves  to be tagged._
_Of course, Congress won’t do this sort of navel-gazing."_

https://leehamnews.com/2019/11/04/po...ed/#more-31576

----------


## harrybarracuda

> _When the FAA can’t even get  its own reauthorization act approved by Congress, which would not only  fund safety but improvements to Air Traffic Control, Congress deserves  to be tagged._


Which is an odd statement considering it was passed and signed into law more than a year ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FAA_Re...on_Act_of_2018

----------


## harrybarracuda



----------


## harrybarracuda

Tens of thousands of Lufthansa passengers faced disruptions Thursday as cabin crew in Germany kicked off a "massive" 48-hour walkout in the biggest escalation yet of a bitter row over pay and conditions.
The strike called by Germany's UFO flight attendants' union was scheduled to start at 2300 GMT on Wednesday and last until 2300 GMT on Friday.
Lufthansa said it was forced to scrap 700 flights on Thursday and some 600 the following day, warning that "around 180,000 passengers will be affected."
The UFO union said the stoppage would impact all Lufthansa departures from German airports.
Last-minute efforts by Germany's largest airline to halt the strike failed after a court in Frankfurt on Wednesday confirmed that the walkout was legal.
Lufthansa said it regretted the inconvenience caused to passengers and stressed that the group's other airlines were not affected.

https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2019/11/07/610580/Germany-Lufthansa-strike-cabin-crew

----------


## OhOh

*An Update on the Boeing 737 MAX*

                   Friday, November 08, 2019, 4:30 PM
_
"Updated Nov. 8,  2019 at 4:30 p.m. CT. American Airlines remains in continuous contact  with the Federal Aviation Administration, Department of Transportation  and Boeing. Based on the latest guidance, American anticipates that the  resumption of scheduled commercial service on American's fleet of Boeing  737 MAX aircraft will occur March 5, 2020.
_
_Updated Nov. 8, 2019 at 4:30 p.m. CT.
_
_Boeing 737 MAX expected to return to scheduled service March 5, 2020_
_American Airlines remains in continuous contact with the Federal  Aviation Administration, Department of Transportation and Boeing. Based  on the latest guidance, American anticipates that the resumption of  scheduled commercial service on American's fleet of Boeing 737 MAX  aircraft will occur March 5, 2020. Once the aircraft is certified,  American expects to run exhibition flights, or flights for American team  members and invited guests only, prior to March 5."

Newsroom - An Update on the Boeing 737 MAX - American Airlines Group, Inc.
_

----------


## harrybarracuda

The Republican Boeing stooges won't be happy with the FAA being forced to do its fucking job properly, but thankfully the Democrats aren't taking that shit.




> Two of the most powerful lawmakers on the House transportation committee demanded Thursday that the Federal Aviation Administration explain why some of its managers overruled the agencys own safety experts during the development of Boeings 737 Max plane.
> Representatives Peter A. DeFazio of Oregon, who is the chairman of the committee, and Rick Larsen of Washington said in a letter to the agency that when F.A.A. employees raised concerns about a set of cables that help control the Max, they were sidelined by agency managers. The cables are part of a rudder system that is separate from the automated software that contributed to two fatal 737 Max accidents.
> A New York Times investigation revealed in July that F.A.A. managers had sided with Boeing in a dispute over the cables, deciding not to require the company to change the system, citing the cost.
> The letter also notes a different instance in which senior managers at the F.A.A. broke with their own employees assessment and allowed Boeing to remove lightning protection from part of the 787 Dreamliner.
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/07/business/boeing-737-max-faa.html

----------


## OhOh

*Airlines look toward another peak season without the MAX*


_"Nov. 11, 2019, © Leeham News: 

Airlines are beginning  to make plans for another peak summer season either without the Boeing  737 MAX in their fleets, or a reduced number.
_
_With the recertification of the MAX continually sliding, like an  airline’s creeping delay at the airport, this is stating the obvious.  Airlines keep shifting the true return to service (RTS) (not  recertification) from 2019 into 1Q2020.
_
_American and Southwest airlines, the two carriers with more MAXes  grounded than any other airline, now target RTS March 5 next year—just a  week short of the global grounding of the airplane.
_
_Boeing’s chairman, David Calhoun, acknowledged in an interview with CNBC Nov. 5 RTS will now fall into 2021.
_
_This was two days before the Federal Aviation Administration and EASA rejected Boeing’s documentation  that is required before recertification is granted. According to media  reports, this could add an inconsequential number of days to the process  or a significant number of weeks.
_
_Concerns are beginning to emerge that recertification may not come until after the first of the year.
_
_All this increases the uncertainty for the airlines.
_
*Summary*

_Creating Plan B—no MAX in the peak season.
__Stored MAXes may face a “calendar” deadline, requiring C Checks before RTS.
__Lessors offering new, year-long leases on A320s and 737 NGs."_ 

https://leehamnews.com/2019/11/11/ai...thout-the-max/
*

"C check
*
_This is  performed approximately every 20–24 months or a specific number of  actual flight hours (FH) or as defined by the manufacturer. This  maintenance check is much more extensive than a B check, requiring a  large majority of the aircraft's components to be inspected. 

This check  puts the aircraft out of service, and the aircraft must not leave the  maintenance site until it is completed. It also requires more space than  A and B checks. It is, therefore, usually carried out in a hangar at a  maintenance base. 

The time needed to complete such a check is at least  1–2 weeks and the effort involved can require up to 6,000 man-hours."_

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_maintenance_checks


One wonders which airline's planes get the possible "C Check" first. Will FAA, EASA, SCAA, CAAC .... inspectors be required at all sites of checking, or will Boeing perform the task i.e. self certify?

----------


## Klondyke

*Never ending story of 737:*

*In Egypt, a Ukrainian plane caught fire with almost 200 people on board. Video*
November 10, 2019

At the airport of the Egyptian resort city of Sharm el-Sheikh, the plane of the Ukrainian airline SkyUp caught fire from Zaporozhye. This was reported by the Ministry of Civil Aviation of Egypt.

The liner on the chassis caught fire after landing. This was due to an oil leak from the hydraulic system, which resulted in one chassis tire flashing. Passengers and aircraft crew were urgently evacuated. 

SkyUp Boeing 737-800 (UR-SQH) on flight #PQ7153 taxied to its parking stand after landing runway 04 (L/R) at Sharm El Sheikh Intl Airport (HESH), Egypt when hydraulic fluid leaked onto hot brakes causing flames in the left maingear.  The fire was exinguished quickly.

https://strana.ua/news/232626-samole...-nojabrja.html

----------


## OhOh

^

A few brown pants needing a wash no doubt.

----------


## Bettyboo

^^ to be fair, 737-800s are great (and very safe).

Nothing like the 737-max, imho.

----------


## OhOh

> 737-800s are great


Are they not one of the Boeing 737-NG family and hence have the "pickle" problem?

"The 737 NG comprises the 737-600, -700, -800, and -900 variants,"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737


*Information - 737NG STA 663.75 FRAME FITTING AND FAILSAFE STRAP CRACKS AT S-18A STRAP*

_"During maintenance in preparation for a 737-800 modification, while accomplishing General Visual Inspection (GVI) or Detailed Inspection (DET) of the wing rear spar, a crack was incidentally discovered at STA 663.75 fuselage frame fitting adjacent to stringer (S-)18A strap.  Further visual inspection revealed cracks on both LHS and RHS frame fittings and LHS and RHS failsafe straps"

https://www.regulations.gov/document...2019-0711-0002
_

----------


## harrybarracuda

Nope Boo, modifying a 50 year old airframe to try and cram in bigger engines or more people has turned out to be a fatal mistake.

A new design is what's needed. Will probably be cheaper in the long run.

----------


## Troy

^ They should have updated the 757 instead of trying to replace it with an extended 737. Pushed the design beyond reasonable boundaries when they already had a plane they could update.

^^ I have never seen a 737-600. A rarity indeed with only a few operators.

I still think the airbus a319,320,321 series are far superior to the B 737. Boeing took a gamble and lost big time. A pity airbus don't have the manufacturing capability to finish off the 737. Silly bloody working rules the Europeans have doesn't help.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> A pity airbus don't have the manufacturing capability to finish off the 737. Silly bloody working rules the Europeans have doesn't help.


What do you mean finish it off?

They can't make NEO's fast enough and they opened a second A220 assembly line three months ago.

They're doing just fine.

----------


## lom

> Boeing’s chairman, David Calhoun, acknowledged in an interview with CNBC Nov. 5 RTS will now fall into 2021.


One can just hope that isn't a typo.  :Smile:

----------


## Klondyke

*Airbus frontrunner to win big Air Arabia order: sources*

DUBAI/PARIS (Reuters) - Airbus (AIR.PA) is likely to win an order for at least 100 jets from Air Arabia (AIRA.DU) with an announcement possibly coming as soon as the Dubai Airshow next week, two sources told Reuters.

The Emirati budget carrier has been considering the order for up to 120 jets, which would more than double its current fleet of 55 narrowbody aircraft, for more than a year.

Air Arabia, which has held talks with both Airbus and Boeing (BA.N) and said it would make a decision by January, was expected to select the European planemaker, the two sources said.

Airbus declined comment. Air Arabia did not immediately respond to an emailed request for comment.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-a...-idUSKBN1XN19M

----------


## harrybarracuda

> One can just hope that isn't a typo.


Not so much a typo as short on detail.




> Dave Calhoun, who took over as chairman from Muilenburg last month, also suggested in an interview with CNBC that the return of the Boeing 737 Max may take more than a year to fully complete.
> 
> "It came in two fronts: one, no short-, no long-term bonus, and three, no consideration for equity grants, until the Max in its entirety is back in the air and flying safely," Calhoun said, adding that it could take until 2021.
> 
> The company previously had said the Boeing 737 Max would return to service early in the fourth quarter, then said last month regulators would begin recertification in Q4 while backing a February timeline for a return to service that some airlines like Southwest Airlines (LUV) have given.


https://www.investors.com/news/boein...rn-until-2021/

----------


## harrybarracuda

Qantas is about to fly a near-empty plane from London Heathrow airport to Sydney as part of “Project Sunrise”.

These are the key questions and answers.

London to Sydney nonstop – is this a first?

No. Qantas flew exactly the same trip in August 1989 – so long ago that the plane used, a Boeing 747-400, is now parked at a museum in Australia.

So what’s different?

Logistically, not much. Then, as now, Qantas deftly diverted what would otherwise be a routine delivery flight from the Boeing plant in Everett, Washington, to Sydney. The plane flies to Heathrow and then continues to Australia’s largest city the long way around – and with no paying passengers onboard.

The difference in 2019 is that commercial flights on the route are on the horizon – by 2022, according to Qantas.

What are the details?

The aircraft is a Boeing 787-9 “Dreamliner” named Longreach, registration VH-ZNJ, and painted to celebrate 100 years of Qantas – an anniversary that happens in 2020.

It flew from the Boeing factory in Everett to Los Angeles, and after five days took off for Heathrow.

The plane is equipped with two General Electric engines and fitted with 42 business class seats, 28 in premium economy and 166 economy.

It will operate the 10,573 trip as QF7879, reflecting the Boeing aircraft type. This is the same flight number as was applied to the nonstop New York-Sydney flight in October 2019.

What is the journey time?

It is scheduled for 18 hours, 45 minutes, but is likely to take slightly less. The plane will have an airspeed of about 550mph, and will be assisted by favourable tail winds for much of its journey. It will easily beat the journey time of 20 hours, 9 minutes set in 1989, because the Boeing 747 had to fly slightly slower in order to minimise fuel burn.

The aircraft is due to land at Heathrow at 7.40pm on Wednesday evening and to leave Heathrow on Thursday morning as soon as it opens for departures at 6am. It is scheduled to arrive at Sydney at 11.45am local time on Friday.

Which way will it go?

The exact route will depend on meteorological conditions, but it is likely to stick closely to the “great circle” route – the shortest distance between two points on the surface of the Earth.

The flight will start with an initial heading east-north-east to Copenhagen, then across Klaipeda in northern Lithuania, Latvia and into Russian airspace – passing north of Moscow.

The northernmost point en route is likely to be close to the city of Nizhny Novgorod at 56.3 degrees north – the same as Perth (Scotland, not Western Australia).

The flight path then gently turns south and gradually increases its southward trajectory, crossing the northern Kazakh frontier about halfway along its length. As night falls, Qantas flight 7879 travels over northeastern Kazakhstan until it reaches the Chinese border.

The aircraft will spend more than five hours crossing China, longer than any other country, before reaching the coast at Hong Kong and setting off across the South China Sea. 

It then cuts across the Philippines and miscellaneous Indonesian islands before making landfall in Australia, close to Darwin, around sunrise.

Even here the aircraft has almost 2,000 miles – and four hours flying – to cover, cutting diagonally across the Northern Territory, Queensland and northern New South Wales before landing at Sydney.

Why is Qantas doing this?

Officially the trip is being described as an “ultra-long haul research flight to gather new data about inflight passenger and crew health and wellbeing”. 

People in the cabin – mostly Qantas employees – will be fitted with wearable technology devices and take part in experiments.

The airline says: “Scientists and medical experts from the Charles Perkins Centre will monitor sleep patterns, food and beverage consumption, lighting, physical movement and inflight entertainment to assess impact on health, wellbeing and body clock.

“Monash University researchers will work with pilots to record crew melatonin levels before, during and after the flights. Pilots will wear an EEG (electroencephalogram) device that tracks brain wave patterns and monitors alertness. 

“The aim is to establish data to assist in building the optimum work and rest pattern for pilots operating long-haul services.”

But any commercial flight on the route will certainly not leave at 6am, the departure time scheduled for the Qantas test flight, so tests to measure fatigue will not be wholly helpful.

With a journey time of just one hour longer than the Perth-London nonstop that operates every day, the scientific claims looks flimsy – though the airline says: “Qantas has already conducted data on passenger sleep strategies on its direct Perth-London service, and some of these initial findings will be assessed further as part of these dedicated research flights.”

Qantas is understandably keen to extract as much favourable publicity as possible, as it did with a similar (though shorter) flight from New York to Sydney in October 2019.

What about the impact on the planet?

Flying large aircraft empty for thousands of miles creates a lot of CO2. The airline says it will compensate for the London-Sydney nonstop: “Qantas operates the largest airline carbon offset scheme in the world. This same programme will be used to offset all the carbon emissions.”

But Anna Hughes, director of Flight Free UK, says: “The climate emergency demands a drastic reduction in emissions now, not new ultra-long haul routes.

“Qantas cannot claim to be committed to sustainability while flying empty jets halfway around the world. Airlines are very good at referencing climate change when it serves their purpose, but there is simply no way an airline can achieve net-zero emissions while pushing ultra-long haul routes, and any claim otherwise is greenwashing.

“While there is no doubt that flying such distances is a remarkable feat of ingenuity and engineering, now that we are aware of aviation’s role in the climate crisis, it is time to stop.”

Surely cutting out the stops saves fuel?

Not on ultra-long haul flights like this, where the tanks are full of fuel to be burnt later in the journey.

According to Antonio Filippone in his book Advanced Aircraft Flight Performance, a modern aircraft (specifically the Boeing 777-300, though values are likely to be similar for the 787) on a very long route should optimally refuel every 3,450 miles – if suitable airports are available close to the shortest route. This takes into account the significant extra fuel consumed on the ground and during the ascent.

For the London-Sydney flight, refuelling at Kazakhstan’s largest city, Almaty, and Cebu in the Philippines, divides the journey into three almost identical segments and adds only 74 miles (about eight minutes’ flying time) to the trip – though the journey would take hours longer because of the time on the ground.

When will fare-paying passengers be able to take a nonstop flight from London to Sydney?

Qantas calls its plan for nonstop flights connecting Sydney with both London and New York Project Sunrise. Scheduled flights are expected to start by 2022, if Airbus or Boeing can supply a suitable aircraft – either the A350 or 777X respectively. But Alan Joyce, chief executive of Qantas, says: “There’s plenty of enthusiasm for Sunrise, but it’s not a foregone conclusion. This is ultimately a business decision and the economics have to stack up.”

A decision is expected by the end of 2019. In time, there could also be nonstops from London to Brisbane and Melbourne, and from Paris to Sydney.

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel...-a9200841.html

----------


## OhOh

*United scrubs 737 Max flying from schedules until early March*


_"__United Airlines has joined American Airlines and Southwest Airlines  in removing the 737 Max from its schedules until early March 2020, a  change aligning US carriers' expectations even as Boeing projects the  aircraft will be flying before year end.

__United  now expects its 737 Max flights will resume 4 March. It previously had  removed the aircraft from its schedules until early January.
_
_The move scrubs an additional roughly 3,300 flights from Chicago-based United's schedule. The carrier disclosed the change in a statement that provides no details about reasons behind the decision.
_
_"Moving  forward, well continue to monitor the regulatory process and nimbly  make the necessary adjustments to our operation and our schedule to  benefit our customers who are traveling with us," the airline's  statement says.
_
_Assuming the Max returns to service in early March 2020, United will have cancelled more than 16,000 flights as a result of the grounding, which took effect in March, its figures show.
_
_Earlier  this month, American and Southwest pushed back their expected Max  reentry dates. American's schedule now has Max flights resuming on 5  March, and Southwest set the date at 7 March.
_
_Despite  those moves, several days ago Boeing issued a statement saying it  expects the US Federal Aviation Administration will clear the Max to fly  in December. Once that happens, airlines will likely need to run pilots  through new training."_

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...ntil-e-462264/

----------


## David48atTD



----------


## harrybarracuda

Because they've done cost/benefit analyses and it isn't worth it.

Next?

----------


## Klondyke

^ A surprising discovery. Many many years ago I have learned somewhere that the soviet bombardiers made some 50 years ago had the wheels spun before landing by a hydraulic engine inside the wheel.

----------


## harrybarracuda

What is it with Boeing getting all these free passes from government agencies?

Oh, that's right, they pay for them.




> When NASA confirmed last year that it would conduct a safety review of SpaceX and Boeing, the two companies it had hired to fly astronauts to the International Space Station, a top agency official said it would be “pretty invasive,” involving hundreds of interviews with employees at every level of the companies at multiple locations.
> 
> Such an in-depth probe of the corporate cultures would be time-consuming and expensive, requiring modifications to the contracts awarded to the companies. Ultimately, NASA agreed to pay SpaceX $5 million for its review, and it proceeded.
> 
> Boeing, however, said such a review would require an additional payment of about $25 million, according to a person familiar with the negotiations. NASA balked at the cost and decided that a far more limited paper audit would suffice, along with a few interviews of key personnel, according to four agency and industry officials familiar with the matter.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/techn...l-examination/

----------


## OhOh

Was the NASA "paper review" on Boeing conducted by NASA, Boeing or NASA people employed at/seconded to, Boeing?

It seems to have been the FAA model.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Was the NASA "paper review" on Boeing conducted by NASA, Boeing or NASA people employed at/seconded to, Boeing?
> 
> It seems to have been the FAA model.


Sounds like they just sent them them some questionnaires to fill and without too much concern over checking the answers.

----------


## OhOh

More Boing, Boing 737 woes surfacing.

*Boeing to fix engines on 7,000 jets after fatal accident probe*

_"__New York (CNN Business)Investigators  of a fatal accident on a Southwest Airlines plane last year recommend  that Boeing retrofit the engines of nearly 7,000 jets to prevent a  repeat of the accident.

__A single passenger was killed  on the plane when a fan blade broke and caused part of the engine  covering to hit the side of the jet. That broke one of the windows, and  the cabin rapidly depressurized. The crew was able to land the plane,  but the woman sitting next to that window was killed. 
_
_The  National Transportation Safety Board, which investigated the accident,  recommended Tuesday that Boeing redesign part of the outer covering of  the planes' jet engines to prevent it from flying into the plane should a  fan blade break free on a future flight. It said that all Boeing 737  Next Generation series airplanes should be retrofitted with whatever fix  Boeing comes up with. 
_
_Boeing  has delivered about 6,700 of the 737 NG jets to airlines around the  world, but it has stopped taking new orders for them as it shifted to  the 737 Max. It has fewer  than 100 of the NG planes yet to build and  and deliver.
_
_Boeing 737 NG planes have not been affected by the grounding of the 737 Max in the wake of two fatal crashes.  But the 737 NG had other safety issues, including the discovery of  cracks on some of the older planes on a part used to keep the wings in  place. Those cracks have grounded a handful of the 737 NGs.
_
_The  final decision on any fix is up to the Federal Aviation Administration,  not the NTSB, whose role is to investigate the causes of accidents. But  Boeing (BA)  said it is already working on enhancements of the engines' design to  addresss the NTSB's recommendations. And it said until that fix is in  place inspections of the fans blades will allow the planes to operate  safely.
_
_"Our common goal is to help prevent similar events from happening in the future," it said.
_
_The NTSB blamed neither Boeing (BA) nor Southwest (LUV),  saying that the crack in the fan blade was not detectable and that the  risk of the engine casing breaking free was unknown before this  incident._ 
_But  shares of Boeing fell as much as 2% immediately after the report was  released, although it later recovered much of that loss."

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/19/business/boeing-737-ng-fix-southwest-airlines-fatality/index.html


_No identification of the engine type, political correctness? Two undetectable or unknown risks have been identified which require fixing.

How  much a year does Boeing spend on Duck-tape? 

One hopes the FAA and the other  global airworthiness certifiers don't take the same "suck it and see" the increasingly financially exposed Boeing  management's attitude smells of.

----------


## Troy

^ CFM56-7B engine fitted to numerous airbus and Boeing jets.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Oooh fuck that's gonna hurt.

And this:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^ CFM56-7B engine fitted to numerous airbus and Boeing jets.



It's not the engine:




> The NTSB has concluded there is a potential structural vulnerability in the engine _casing_ on all Boeing 737 Next Generation (NG) aircraft. These are the versions of the twin-jet with the suffix -600, -700, -800 and -900.


Or to be more specific:




> After investigating an engine blowout that killed a Southwest Airlines passenger last year, federal safety officials on Tuesday said Boeing should be required to redesign the engine casing on its 737 NG airplanes, and airlines should retrofit more than 6,800 planes currently in service worldwide.


https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...sands-of-737s/



But again the FAA did fuck all:




> |The tragedy raised questions about safety oversight because of a similar engine explosion on a different Southwest flight 19 months earlier. After that earlier incident the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) mandated inspections of engine fan blades  but the inspections failed to detect the cracked fan blade that caused the fatal accident. 
> 
> <snip>
> 
> On Flight 1380, it was the disintegration of the fan cowl that did most damage. Thats the middle part of the pod that wraps around the engine; a part that opens up on hinges to allow access for maintenance.
> The design requirements for the engine casing  known as the nacelle  are developed by Boeing. The 737 NG nacelles are then designed and built by a division of United Technologies.
> The 737 NG, with nearly 7,000 flying worldwide, is the model prior to the 737 MAX. The MAX has a different engine and casing and is not affected.
> Boeing said it is working on a design enhancement that would fully address the safety recommendation from the NTSB.
> 
> ...



You have to fucking laugh. They have made no systemic changes to the FAA that guarantee anything other than a cursory glance and an automatic rubber stamp.

----------


## OhOh

> potential structural vulnerability in the  engine casing on all Boeing 737 “Next Generation” (NG) aircraft





> Boeing said it “is working on a design enhancement that would fully address the safety recommendation from the NTSB.”


Similar response to the MCAS crashes. Meanwhile the affected Boeing 737 NG family of planes are still flying.

Time scale of design - unqualified, timescale of certification - unqualified, time scale of upgrades - unqualified, number of passengers at risk until all planes upgraded - 5,600,000 passengers/day

Boeing 737 NG engine blade + Boeing 737 NG engine casing failure + Boeing 737 NG Wing Pickle fatigue exposure:

7,000 planes x 4 flights per day x 200 passengers per plane. 

"As currently the effect is only, one death/incident, the proven risk is only 28,000 passengers/day," the company Director of Risk Management, reported to the board.

"Yeah we can live with that!", the Boeing President was heard to say.

Next item on today's agenda, "The Boeing 777" ....

----------


## OhOh

*Dubai-air-show-order-tracker*




http://order tracker provides regula...ils of all the

----------


## harrybarracuda

And in this week's "Just Fancy That"....




> Thai pilots are failing to find work after graduation despite high global demand in the aviation industry, the Civil Aviation Training Centre president said on Monday.
> 
> International airline operators are competing to offer jobs to pilots, but our pilots find no jobs, according to Piya Atmungkun.
> 
> Between 600 and 700 newly graduated pilots are struggling to secure seats in cockpits, he said.
> 
> Aviation programmes and pilot training schools have mushroomed, but many fail to meet international standards, according to RAdm Piya.
> 
> New pilots are being churned out continually without information of how many of them are actually employable by airline companies. This has led to the oversupply of pilots who aren't up to scratch, he said.
> ...

----------


## OhOh

What % of Thai Airways and other Thai airlines pilots, are non Thai trained?

What % of Thai trained pilots are allegedly 




> not certified according to international standards.”


How are these presumably, Thai "certified", pilots allowed to fly planes to and from countries who demand pilots to be, "certified according to international standards"?

Are the "certifiers", Thai or otherwise, open to inducements, similar to the current FAA who, "certify" airplanes?

My understanding of pilots worldwide, when obtaining a new position, is that they are required to hold, a "certified" pilots licence, "certification" to fly certain airplane types, a required number of "in Command" hours and are subjected to the approval of a senior airline pilot, after compulsory certified flying skill test procedures.

One hopes it not skin colour, upper body muscle (UBM) or race that defines a certifiable airline pilot. 

Although there does appear to be some additional requirements with regards to UBM when it comes to Boeing 737 MAX pilots.

----------


## misskit

*Best 10 Airlines 2020 announced, no sign of THAI*AirlineRatings (www.airlineratings.com) has announced its ranking of the Best 10 Airlines 2020 with no sign of Thai Airways International (THAI). However, Thailand’s national carrier did claim the last spot in last year’s top 10 ranking by Skytrax.

According to AirlineRatings’ website, the rankings were judged by seven editors with more than 200 years of industry experience between them, combined with major safety and government audits and based on 12 key criteria including fleet age, passenger reviews, profitability, investment rating, product offerings, and staff relations.



The Best 10 Airlines 2020 are as follows:


1. Air New Zealand


2. Singapore Airlines


3. All Nippon Airways


4. Qantas


5. Cathay Pacific Airways


6. Emirates


7. Virgin Atlantic



8. EVA Air


9. Qatar Airways


10. Virgin Australia



https://www.nationthailand.com/news/...ernal_referral

----------


## David48atTD

> *Best 10 Airlines 2020 announced, no sign of THAI*



Bottom 10 Airlines maybe?

----------


## David48atTD

Jetstar strike threatens Christmas holiday plans




Passengers booked on a flight with budget airline  Jetstar could have their holiday plans disrupted, with ground crew,  baggage handlers and pilots expected to strike in the weeks leading up  to Christmas and beyond.


*Key points:*
Jetstar ground crew, baggage handlers and pilots have voted to do a series of strikes in the lead up to Christmas and beyondThe  Transport Workers Union says workers are struggling on low pay, but the  company says its offer of a 3 per cent annual wage increase is  reasonableThe pilots union, the Australian Federation of Air Pilots (AFAP), also wants better pay and conditions 


The Transport Workers Union (TWU) said on Friday that  about 250 Jetstar workers in Sydney, Melbourne, Avalon, Brisbane, Cairns  and Adelaide had voted in favour of taking protected industrial action,  which could include work stoppages of up to 24 hours.

In addition, 650 Jetstar pilots  part of the Australian Federation of Air Pilots (AFAP)  have also voted to strike.
The  decision to strike was taken after the airline rejected demands for  better employment conditions relating to pay and working hours.

The  TWU said the union must give the company three working-days' notice  before taking industrial action, so the earliest a strike could take  place would be on Thursday.

But there could be a number of short strikes in the lead up to Christmas and beyond, it added.

*https://tinyurl.com/vdhs8f6

*

----------


## harrybarracuda

Every day Boeing pin their hopes on a flying deathtrap is going to hurt them.




> United Airlines just announced it is purchasing 50 new A321XLR aircraft from Airbus. The carrier plans to use the long-range jet to replace and retire its aging fleet of Boeing 757-200 aircraft, the last of which was built in 2004.
> United says the A321XLR lowers overall fuel burn per seat by 30% compared to previous generation aircraft. The plane can fly at its listed cruising speed of 514 mph for more than 9 hours. The lower fuel burn, combined with  greater fuel storage, gives the A321XLR a listed range of 4700 nautical miles. It also brings United closer to its goal of reducing its carbon footprint by 50% relative to 2005 levels by 2050.
> 
> Although the A321XLR can carry up to 244 passengers in a single class layout, an Airbus sources says United will seat about 170 to allow for lie-flat seats in the business class cabin. The plane will also offer LED lighting, larger overhead bin space and Wi-Fi connectivity.
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelgoldstein/2019/12/04/united-airlines-to-buy-50-ultra-long-range-airbus-a321xlr-aircraft-in-estimated-6-billion-deal/#898d400624ac

----------


## Klondyke

(Refreshing "WMD", this time with an airline?)

*Washington expands sanctions against Iran's largest airline, accusing it of weapons of mass destruction proliferation*
11 Dec, 2019

The US rolled out new sanctions against Iranian companies, including its largest airline Mahan Air, accused of “weapons of mass destruction proliferation” and transportation of lethal aid to Yemen.

The airline, which has been a target of Washington’s restrictions since 2011,  has been repeatedly accused by the US of having deep ties with the Iraninan Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC) and regularly transporting its troops and hardware around the region.

“The Iranian regime uses its aviation and shipping industries to supply its regional terrorist and militant groups with weapons, directly contributing to the devastating humanitarian crises in Syria and Yemen,” US Secretary of the Treasury Steven T. Mnuchin said in a statement.

This time, the airline was sanctioned under the Executive Oder 13382 which targets “proliferators of weapons of mass destruction and their supporters.” It was not immediately clear how exactly the company engaged in such alleged activities.

The allegations that the airline has been proliferating WMDs in some fashion are “ridiculous,” a professor at the University of Tehran, Seyed Mohammad Marandi, says. The new restrictions are yet another attempt to harm the Iranian people, who are the real target of the economic war – despite claims from Washington it only seeks to hit the authorities of the Islamic Republic.

“It’s ridiculous and everyone knows it’s ridiculous. The United States is engaging in economic warfare against Iran and ordinary Iranians,” Marandi told RT. “The Americans have sanctioned Iranian airlines for decades now, and what they want to do is make it more dangerous for people to fly.”

The Treasury sanctioned three general sales agents of Mahan Air, as well as dozens of aircraft belonging to or operated by the airline.

The sanctions might have “very heavy implications” for the airline, which will likely be barred from using airports in countries fearful of secondary sanctions coming from the US, as well as likely causing other problems, former Pentagon official Michael Maloof believes.

“It could affect their ability to get component parts, depending upon the type of an aircraft,” he told RT. “It could be devastating in that respect and affect the safety of passengers. It could ultimately have the effect of shutting down the airline – and maybe that’s what they [the US] want to do.”

Besides the air carrier, the sanctions also targeted an Iranian businessman, Abdolhossein Khedri, and two shipping companies belonging to him. The businessman stands accused of “terrorism support” and partaking in the IRGC “smuggling operations.”

US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said the move is part of "maximum pressure campaign of sanctions against Iran."

https://www.rt.com/news/475598-washi...-air-sanctions

----------


## harrybarracuda

Maybe that Jetstar strike isn't so bad after all...





> A Jetstar flight came close to touching down without its landing gear in place as a result of a series of distractions, according to a new report.
> 
> Pilots onboard flight VH-VQ from Sydney to Ballina forgot to lower the aircrafts wheels after completing a go-around  an aborted landing  in May.
> 
> On the second landing attempt, crew did not realise the landing gear was in the wrong position until a warning signal was triggered at just 700ft (213m).
> 
> A new report from the Australian Transport Safety Bureau, seen by 7news, found that the flight crew incorrectly actioned the landing checklist and didnt follow standard procedures during the first go-around, creating a series of distractions.
> 
> During the downwind leg following the first go-around, the flight crew did not select the landing gear down as they had commenced the configuration sequence for landing at the Flaps 3 setting, read the report.
> ...

----------


## harrybarracuda

The sheer arrogance of the FAA is mindboggling. They should be having hot pokers shoved up their arses.




> *The FAA knew the 737 Max aircraft was unsafe and likely to crash 15 times during its life span after the Lion Air disaster and before the Ethiopian crash*
> 
> The second crash of a Boeing 737 Max could have and should have been avoided it has been revealed this week, after analysis carried out by the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) after the first crash the twin jet in October 2018 clearly indicated that the MCAS flight-control that pitched the nose down would likely lead to as many as 15 catastrophic accidents over a 30 to 45-year life span if it was left unfixed.  Yet the FAA didn't ground the jets then and there, its leaders let the fatally flawed jet's continue to operate even after a second crash which left hundreds dead.   Indeed,  even after that second crash of an Ethiopian Airlines jet,  the FAA continued to safe the type was safe and was shamed into grounding the aircraft after virtually all the major national air safety authorities around the world grounded the 737 Max, over safety fears. 
> 
> The FAA’s own analysis was disclosed yesterday to the US House Transportation Committee Hearing which is investigating the FAA's oversight of Boeing and the 737 Max certification process. 
> 
> Peter DeFazio, chairman of the committee said: "The FAA rolled the dice on the safety of the travelling public and let the Max continue to fly until Boeing could overhaul its MCAS software."
> 
> After a new Boeing 737 Max of Lion Air Max plunged into the sea off the coast of Indonesia in October 2018, the FAA carried out a risk assessment, which lead to the shocking conclusion the type would suffer a crash between every one to two years should the faulty software not be fixed. The FAA's leaders then took the decision to allow the Max to continue to operate - a decision that would prove to be deadly.
> ...

----------


## OhOh

*Airbus beats Boeing to become preferred supplier for Qantas Sydney-London flights*

_"Qantas Airways Ltd (QAN.AX) said on Friday it has chosen Airbus SE (AIR.PA)  as preferred supplier for jets capable of the worlds longest  commercial flights from Sydney to London, beating rival Boeing Co (BA.N) after a hard-fought contest. 
__
The choice of up to 12 A350-1000 planes fitted with an extra fuel  tank for flights of up to 21 hours cements Airbus as the leader in  ultra-long haul flying globally at a time when Boeing is battling delays  on its rival 777X program and a broader corporate crisis following two  deadly 737 MAX crashes. _ 
_
The Qantas flights would begin in the  first half of 2023, but remain subject to reaching a pay deal with  pilots, who would need to extend their duty times to around 23 hours to  account for potential delays and switch between flying the A350 and the  airlines current A330 fleet. A final decision on an order is expected  in March, the airline said. 
_
_Qantas Chief Executive Alan Joyce  said the airline had a lot of confidence in the market for non-stop  services from Sydney to London and to New York based on two years of  flying non-stop from Perth to London, where it has achieved a 30% fare  premium over one-stop rivals in premium classes._ 
_
The  A350 is a fantastic aircraft and the deal on the table with Airbus gives  us the best possible combination of commercial terms, fuel efficiency,  operating cost and customer experience, he said. 
_
_Singapore Airlines Ltd (SIAL.SI)  operates the worlds current longest flight, nearly 19 hours from  Singapore to New York, using an ultra-long range version of the smaller  A350-900._ 
_
Airbus Chief Commercial Officer Christian Scherer  thanked Qantas for its selection in a statement, while a Boeing  spokesman said it was disappointed with the decision but looked forward  to continuing its longstanding partnership with the airline._ 
_
Rico  Merkert, a transport professor at the University of Sydney Business  School, said the A350-1000 fit the Qantas brief well and was the safer  choice, given Boeing has recently reported problems such as the  grounding of the 737 MAX, structural cracks in 737 NGs and a fuselage  split in a stress test of its 777-9._ 
_
The A350 just  seems to be a much safer bet, he said. And safety is at the core of  everything that Qantas does including its brand._ 
_Airbus no  longer provides list prices for aircraft, but based on its 2018 price  list, the Qantas order could be worth up to $4.4 billion before heavy  discounts that are standard for airline customers._ 
_
Citi on Friday  estimated the planes would cost A$3 billion ($2.04 billion) to $3.5  billion, with the investment likely to be phased over three years. 
_
_The  selection of the A350-1000 will add to growing doubts over Boeings  plans to produce the 777-8 that it had proposed to Qantas for the  mission._ 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-q...KBN1YG2PX?il=0

----------


## harrybarracuda

Some good news for travellers, BA shareholders and presumably pilots. And for me, as I'm using them for a Glasgow run next month.




> *British Airways pilots vote to settle dispute over pay*
> 
> Pilots at British Airways have overwhelmingly voted to settle their long-running dispute over pay and conditions with the airline.
> 
> The vote confirms the end of one of the most damaging industrial disputes in BA’s history, which included two days of strikes in September and the cancellation of 2,325 flights. It cost the carrier £121m.
> 
> In a ballot that closed on Monday, BA staff in the British Airline Pilots’ Association voted by almost 9 to 1 to accept a deal proposed by the Acas conciliation service in November.
> 
> Pilots voted by more than 90% to take industrial action in the original ballot. The strikes in September were the first by pilots in the airline’s history.
> ...


It's still sad that employees don't get a share of the profits. It's a great motivator.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Not such festive news for Boeing employees. They are going to suspend manufacture of the flying deathtrap. Surely now is the time for a change at the top and some seasonal manslaughter charges for those responsible both at Boeing and the FAA?




> *Boeing is halting production of the embattled 737 Max starting in January*
> 
> New York (CNN Business)Boeing plans to suspend production of the 737 Max starting in January as it waits for the embattled plane to be recertified to return to service, the company announced Monday.
> 
> The company's stock price closed down more than 4% Monday after early reports that Boeing (BA) might halt the plane's production began to circulate, and then fell another 0.67% after hours following the company's official announcement.
> 
> The 737 Max was grounded worldwide in March after two fatal crashes — a Lion Air jet that plunged into the Java Sea in October 2018 and an Ethiopian Airlines plane downed near Addis Ababa in March — killed 346 people. But getting the plane back in the air has proven immensely difficult, causing major financial and reputational issues for Boeing (BA).
> 
> Orders for the 737 Max dried up, and it wasn't until last month that Boeing recorded its first new orders — a total of only 30 planes — since the grounding. In the meantime, the company continued to produce the planes as it hoped for a quick recertification by airline regulators around the globe.
> ...

----------


## OhOh

> although Boeing later will have to pay billions to its airline customers to compensate them for the cost of the grounding.


The Airlines that purchased the "same as any other 737" will also demand recompense. For the "misspoken" no "MAX" training required, sold by the snake oil sellers, out of the back of a, here today, gone tomorrow, wagon.




> determining appropriate training requirements,


Full training to "western standards", for all? The "exceptional" western and the 3rd world "brown monkey" pilots. 

That's a heavy ongoing charge to Boing Boing's forward earnings. A 10 to 15 year commitment?

----------


## OhOh

*United extends 737 Max cancellations through June*


_"United Airlines will pull its 14 Boeing 737 Max aircraft from its  schedules through 4 June as the US Federal Aviation Administrations  safety review of the grounded aircraft extends into 2020 and carriers  remain uncertain when those fleets could be cleared to return to  service.
_
_The Chicago-based carrier had previously removed the Max from its schedule through 4 March.
_
_The airline has 14 737 Max jets in storage, with 144 more of the type  on order, according to Cirium fleets data. In total, United Airlines  has 764 aircraft of various types in service.
_
_American Airlines and Southwest Airlines, which have extended  cancellations of their Max fleets through April, have removed the  aircraft from their schedules one month at a time. Uniteds announcement  departs from that month-by-month cancellation trend._

_The airline will cancel up to 108 flights per day through June during  the grounding, says United spokesman Frank Benenati tells Cirium on 20  December. The extended cancellation will help the network team plan the  year ahead, he says.
_
_By moving the return to service date back more than just a month, as  we have done previously throughout 2019, it allows us to have more  certainty by providing our customers and our operation a firmer and more  definitive timeline, Benenati says. We will better help our customers  by reducing the number of our passengers we need to reassign to a new  aircraft or rebook on a different flight._
_
Like other airlines with Max fleets in storage, United has covered  the capacity gap with measures including flying spare aircraft on  flights originally scheduled for Max aircraft. The FAA grounded the 737  Max in March 2019.
_
_Southwest has 34 737 Max airliners in storage and all its 262  on-order aircraft are Max jets, Cirium fleets data shows. American has  24 Max jets in storage and 76 on order."

https://www.flightglobal.com/program...135912.article
_

----------


## OhOh

Big Chief sacrificed. Little Chief promoted. 

*Analysis: Calhoun’s insider status raises question: is he the one to pull Boeing out of its dive?*


_"Dec. 23, 2019, © Leeham News: The Boeing Board of Directors has fired Dennis Muilenburg.

__Board chairman David Calhoun was named president and CEO, effective  next month. The delay is required while Calhoun resigns from other  business commitments._
_Boeing CFO Greg Smith was named interim CEO. Board member Lawrence Kellner was named non-executive chairman._
_Calhoun has been on the board 10 years. The roots of Boeing’s current  crisis includes decisions made by the Board. Is Calhoun, an insider,  the right person to pull Boeing out of its dive?
_

*Muilenburg’s demotion*

_Muilenburg was demoted in October from his position as chairman, remaining president and CEO._
_Despite a rousing endorsement last month by David Calhoun, a  long-time Boeing board member who was named chairman after the demotion,  that from the board’s perspective, Muilenburg had done everything  right, few supported this position.
_
_The 737 MAX crisis only got worse under Muilenburg’s leadership._
_Despite many forecasts about an early return to service, the  grounding of the MAX extended time and again, like an airline’s creeping  delay of a flight at the airport._
_Muilenburg mishandled family relations from the two MAX crashes._
_His public relations responses were awful (though I blame the corporate lawyers for setting this tone).
_
_His Congressional hearing performance was terrible.
_
_Relations with the Federal Aviation Administration spiraled down like an MCAS-induced flaw._
_Relations with airlines and lessors are tanking (also in part due to Boeing’s legal position on compensation).
_
*Calhoun’s appointment
*
_Calhoun was the Board’s lead director for years.
_
_He’s been on the Board since 2009. He’s been part of the Board  policy-making that led to the cost-cutting some say had deleterious  impact on the development of the MAX.
_
_He’s been part of the Board decisions that shareholder value is the No. 1 priority at Boeing.
_
_His career includes GE, and the GE influence permeated the Board of  Directors for years with his and other directors who had GE background.  This influence contributed to the direction the Board set about  shareholder value, cost-cutting and operating margins.
_
*Remaking Boeing
*
_As noted in my Oct. 7 column, the Boeing board is entrenched.
_
_It also fails to include a pilot of high stature—someone like a  Chesley Sullenburger or the late Al Haynes. Given what’s happened, a  former investigator from the National Transportation Safety Board or a  former member of the EASA regulatory agency might be a good addition.
_
_The GE cost-cutting culture in the executive ranks and the Board that’s been prevalent for 20 years needs to go.
_
_Crucial is a Board that has fresh perspective and is not married to “shareholder value” as the No. 1, 2 and 3 priorities.
_
_Shareholder value is important, of course. But not at the expense of  safety and investing in new airplanes rather than derivatives of a  50-year old design (the 737) or a band aid (the 777X).
_
_Whether Calhoun, who has been part of the problem, is the person to make these changes remains to be seen."_

https://leehamnews.com/2019/12/23/analysis-calhouns-insider-status-raises-question-is-he-the-one-to-pull-boeing-out-of-its-dive/


No mention of the axed Dennis Muilenburg's contract termination package.

----------


## Troy

^ Another mistake by Boeing. They need to get rid of the bean counters and put an engineer in charge. It might put some much needed faith back into their products.

----------


## lom

> ^ Another mistake by Boeing. They need to get rid of the bean counters and put an engineer in charge. It might put some much needed faith back into their products.


Didn't help much, Dennis Muilenburg was an engineer and engineers  should do what they are best at and that is not running companies.
 The problem in Boeing and many other manufacturing companies is management having ears only for shareholders and no ears for engineers, that's what need to change but you don't do that by placing an engineer as the top dog.

----------


## Troy

The Boeing board failed the company. They need to reorganise and shift their focus to making good aircraft rather than simply cutting costs. 

The 777 was a huge success but they failed to build the equivalent short and mid range updates to replace the 737 and 757...they need to drop the 737 max, lick their wounds and come back with modern replacements. 

They won't do that with bean counters at the top. They need someone with a look to the future and designs for the future. It's end of the road for the 737.

----------


## lom

> It's end of the road for the 737.


On that we can agree.
Passengers usually don't care what airplane they are traveling in but I'm sure many more will do that now and refuse to fly with a 737MAX. 
The plane is toxic and it is too late for Boeing to change that.

----------


## Takeovers

> On that we can agree.
> Passengers usually don't care what airplane they are traveling in but I'm sure many more will do that now and refuse to fly with a 737MAX. 
> The plane is toxic and it is too late for Boeing to change that.


The plane can be made safe. It would have helped if they had done it after the first accident. But I agree that it won't help at this stage. I also believe that the fixes they have implemented yet are not enough to make it safe.

----------


## OhOh

> It's end of the road for the 737.


Take out the 737's and it's not even a footprint in the sand.

Here are Boeings outstanding orders;

_The figures in the table for Total Unfilled Orders, ASC 606  Adjustment and Backlog include the orders, listed on this site, of  Boeing Capital Corporatio_n.              
737
747
767
777
787
Total

 *Total Unfilled Orders*
4,591
17
97
388
569
5,662

 *ASC 606 Adjustment*
(186)
–
–
(5)
(27)
(218)

 *Backlog*
4,405
17
97
383
542
5,444




https://www.boeing.com/commercial/#/orders-deliveries




737's - 4,405, all others - 1,141

Therein lies the problem.

----------


## Klondyke

> Big Chief sacrificed. Little Chief promoted.


That will teach them...

----------


## Troy

> The plane can be made safe. It would have helped if they had done it after the first accident. But I agree that it won't help at this stage. I also believe that the fixes they have implemented yet are not enough to make it safe.


I disagree wholeheartedly from an engineering perspective. The plane should never be afforded the grandfather rights it receives. 

The 737 was a cheap product when it was born. It actually improved to be a classic but dropped to being the cheap alternative afterwards. It is out dated by the vc-10 for goodness sake. It is so old that only the cheapies are interested in it...and they sure as hell are not interested in you as a paying passenger, only in your money. Believe me the 737 max is dead and should stay dead.

----------


## Troy

Looks like a Fokker 100 has crashed shortly after take off in Kazakhstan. Not much detail yet

----------


## Takeovers

> I disagree wholeheartedly from an engineering perspective. The plane should never be afforded the grandfather rights it receives. 
> 
> The 737 was a cheap product when it was born. It actually improved to be a classic but dropped to being the cheap alternative afterwards. It is out dated by the vc-10 for goodness sake. It is so old that only the cheapies are interested in it...and they sure as hell are not interested in you as a paying passenger, only in your money. Believe me the 737 max is dead and should stay dead.



The order book implies differently. The customer airlines seem to like it. What it needs is a serous overhaul of the avionics. Triple redundant stall sensors and a thorough redesign of the software. Not band aid fixes like they seem to do presently.

----------


## OhOh

> The order book implies differently. The customer airlines seem to like it.


The airlines were lied to.

How many orders for the 737 MAX, in the last year? The 737 orders I posted, include the NG variant and possibly other variants.

----------


## Takeovers

> The airlines were lied to.


Yes and it will hurt their business. Even more so if they try to get away with superficial fixes.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> The plane can be made safe.


Yes, by:

- Scrapping the Max
- Designing a new aircraft fit for purpose rather than trying to bolt massive engines onto an old one too far from the fuselage to make it airworthy.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> The airlines were lied to.
> 
> How many orders for the 737 MAX, in the last year? The 737 orders I posted, include the NG variant and possibly other variants.


Boeing's net orders for the Max in 2019 amount to MINUS 93.

Airbus have received 674 orders for A320NEO variants this year.

'Nuff said.

----------


## OhOh

*Airbus beats goal with 863 jet deliveries in 2019, ousts Boeing from top spot*_Airbus has become the world’s largest planemaker for the first time  since 2011 after delivering a forecast-beating 863 aircraft in 2019,  seizing the crown from embattled U.S. rival Boeing (BA.N), airport and tracking sources said on Wednesday.

__A reversal in the pecking order between the two giants had been  expected as a crisis over Boeing’s grounded 737 MAX drags into 2020. But  the record European data further underscores the distance Boeing must  travel to recoup its market position. 
_
_Airbus, which had been  forced by its own industrial problems to cut its 2019 delivery goal by  2-3% in October, deployed extra resources until hours before midnight to  reach 863 aircraft for the year, compared with its revised target of  860 jets. 
_
_Deliveries rose 7.9 % from 800 aircraft in 2018._ 

_Airbus declined to comment on the figures, which must be audited before they can be finalized and published. 
_
_Planemakers  receive most of their revenues when aircraft are delivered - minus  accumulated progress payments - so the end-year delivery performance is  closely monitored by investors. _ 
_Airbus’s tally, which  included around 640 single-aisle  aircraft, broke industry records  after it diverted thousands of workers and canceled holidays to complete  a buffer stock of semi-finished aircraft waiting to have their cabins  adjusted. 
_
_Airbus has been hit by delays in fitting the complex  new layouts on A321neo jets assembled in Hamburg, Germany, resulting in  dozens of these and other models being stored in hangars to await  last-minute configurations and the arrival of more labor._ 
_Such  out-of-sequence work drives up costs and could have a modest impact on  Airbus profit margins, but the impact will be largely blunted by the  high volume of planes and already solid profitability for such  single-aisle aircraft, analysts say. 
_
_Still, the problems in  fitting complex cabins have curtailed Airbus’s ability to take advantage  of the market turmoil surrounding Boeing’s 737 MAX - grounded since  March following two fatal accidents. 
_
_Boeing delivered 345 mainly long-haul jets between January and  November, less than half the number of 704 achieved in the same period  of 2018, when the MAX was being delivered normally. For the whole of  2018, Boeing had delivered 806 aircraft. 
_
_Airbus production plants  traditionally halt over Christmas and New Year. But the company’s  delivery centers and completion facilities were humming well into the  afternoon of New Year’s Eve to allow Asian and other airlines to fly  away new jets."
_
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-a...KBN1Z01Q8?il=0

----------


## harrybarracuda

Sounds like she was pissed before she even got on the plane.

Lucky she was going from Scabby Dhabi to Manchester and not the other way around.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...-hour-21228996

----------


## OhOh

One hopes that a ski jacket not a tee shirt.

OMG. Luigi has a pair of those shoes!

----------


## harrybarracuda

Yeah you'd pump it you scallywag.

----------


## Bettyboo

> Yeah you'd pump it you scallywag.


With those shoes, Looper will be in a tiz...

----------


## NamPikToot

Have they not watched Star Trek and heard of the Star Fleet Academy Kobayashi Maru test

https://www.ft.com/content/4d24440c-3239-11ea-a329-0bcf87a328f2

----------


## baldrick

well the 737 max's fate has been sealed by internal messages of boeings employees

who the fcuk would fly on the thing now - maybe it will become a freight hauler




> “This airplane is designed by clowns who in turn are supervised by monkeys,”


Internal Boeing messages raise serious questions about 737 Max | Business | The Guardian

----------


## NamPikToot

^ i wonder if anyone has landed one yet on the Simulator, if not maybe they have a high score thing going on.

I will avoid flying in one if Merica ever forces them back into service.

----------


## Troy

^ You appear to be forgetting that there were more than 41,000 flights of the 737-max in the first year, before the two fatal accidents grounded them.

----------


## NamPikToot

Not really Troy, i am aware of their service but tell that to those on the flights affected by the Boeing fukwittery and compounded by US regulatory authorities - the crooks would still be allowing them to fly if they could get away with it. They only give a shit if it affects their profits.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^ You appear to be forgetting that there were more than 41,000 flights of the 737-max in the first year, before the two fatal accidents grounded them.


And several near misses.

It's like the DC-10 was a fucking deathtrap until they were forced to make design changes.

This bean counting is fucking unacceptable.

it's a flying coffin and should be scrapped.

----------


## Klondyke

*Boeing Mocked Lion Air Calls for More 737 Max Training Before Crash*
14 January 2020

House panel confirms Indonesia carrier asked about simulators

Unclear if added training would have averted 737 Max crashes

Indonesia’s Lion Air considered putting its pilots through simulator training before flying the Boeing Co. 737 Max but abandoned the idea after the planemaker convinced them in 2017 it was unnecessary, according to people familiar with the matter and internal company communications.

The next year, 189 people died when a Lion Air 737 Max plunged into the Java Sea, a disaster blamed in part on inadequate training and the crew’s unfamiliarity with a new flight-control feature on the Max that malfunctioned.

Boeing employees had expressed alarm among themselves over the possibility that one of the company’s largest customers might require its pilots to undergo costly simulator training before flying the new 737 model, according to internal messages that have been released to the media. Those messages, included in the more than 100 pages of internal Boeing communications that the company provided to lawmakers and the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration and released widely on Thursday, had Lion Air’s name redacted.

But the the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee provided excerpts of those messages to Bloomberg News that un-redacted the Indonesian carrier’s name.

“Now friggin Lion Air might need a sim to fly the MAX, and maybe because of their own stupidity. I’m scrambling trying to figure out how to unscrew this now! idiots,” one Boeing employee wrote in June 2017 text messages obtained by the company and released by the House committee.

In response, a Boeing colleague replied: “WHAT THE F%$&!!!! But their sister airline is already flying it!” That was an apparent reference to Malindo Air, the Malaysian-based carrier that was the first to fly the Max commercially.

Doing simulator training would have undercut a critical selling point of the jet: that airlines would be able to allow crews trained on an older 737 version to fly the Max after just a brief computer course.

In a report on the Oct. 29, 2018 accident, Indonesia’s National Transportation Safety Committee cited a failure by Boeing to tell pilots about the new flight-control feature on the jet, called MCAS, and the need to provide training on it so that pilots would be able to better respond to malfunctions.

The report also cited shortfalls in the crew’s ability to perform emergency check lists, fly the plane manually and communicate about the emergency. The copilot, who took nearly four minutes to look up an emergency procedure he was supposed to have memorized, was singled out for repeated failures during training.

The 737 Max was grounded worldwide last March after an Ethiopian Airlines plane crashed following a similar MCAS malfunction.

To be sure, simulator training that didn’t address a malfunction of the system like the one crews in both disasters encountered might not have saved the jets. Separate decisions had been made not to inform pilots about MCAS, something that has drawn sharp criticism from pilots’ unions in the U.S.

But the prospect of simulator training for Max pilots -- and opposition to it within Boeing -- were major themes in the latest batch of embarrassing internal company messages released last week.

U.S. Representative Pete DeFazio, chairman of the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee that is investigating the 737 Max, said the probe has found “more and more evidence of how far Boeing was willing to go in order to essentially cloak MCAS in secrecy from MAX pilots while also downplaying the information it shared about MCAS with federal regulators. That’s incredibly damning, and is opposite of Boeing’s repeated insistence that safety drives its decisions.”

Lion Air has declined to comment whether it was the carrier discussed in the messages released last week by Boeing but people familiar with the exchanges, who asked not to be identified discussing a private matter, said Lion Air had initially raised concerns about the need for simulator training on the Max but ultimately accepted Boeing’s recommendation that it was unnecessary.

Some of the messages revealed the pressure on employees -- and customers -- to avoid the additional training. Boeing’s resistance to simulator training for Lion Air pilots was reported earlier by Forbes.

Boeing didn’t respond to a request for comment but said last week that “any potential safety deficiencies identified in the documents have been addressed.”

“These documents do not represent the best of Boeing,” Greg Smith, the company’s interim CEO, said in a message to employees Friday. “The tone and language of the messages are inappropriate, particularly when used in discussion of such important matters, and they do not reflect who we are as a company or the culture we’ve created.”

Technical Pilot
The communications include a 2017 email from Boeing’s chief technical pilot on the 737 in which he crowed to colleagues: “Looks like my jedi mind trick worked again!” The email was sent two days after the earlier messages expressing alarm about Lion Air potentially demanding simulator training.

Attached was a forwarded email exchange in which the person warned an unnamed recipient against offering simulator training for Max pilots, pushing instead for the computer-based course that regulators had already approved for flight crews transitioning to the Max from earlier 737 models.

“I am concerned that if [redacted] chooses to require a Max simulator for its pilots beyond what all other regulators are requiring that it will be creating a difficult and unnecessary training burden for your airline, as well as potentially establish a precedent in your region for other Max customers,” the Boeing pilot wrote in the forwarded message.

While Lion Air was not identified in the redacted emails, the discussions are consistent with those Boeing held with Lion Air at the time, according to people familiar with the matter.

“The story always comes back to the same thing: that Boeing was advancing the sale of this plane to capture market share, to capture the profits and cash flow that goes with it, and safety was treated as something that would occur without a great deal of focus,” said Robert Clifford, a Chicago lawyer who has sued Boeing on behalf of victims of the Ethiopian Airlines crash. “That’s just never the case in engineering.”

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ng-thwarted-it

----------


## helge

Greed over safety.

Surprised that this has come out.

Seems that the United Corporate Fascist States hasn't perfected its sceme yet.

I'm pleased with every little spark of light.  :Wall:

----------


## OhOh

The "spark" has evolved into a supernova. 

For those, with their "eyes" wide open.

----------


## Klondyke

Perhaps it was already here?
It really discloses awful things...

*Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system

*A Boeing whistleblower has claimed that passengers on its 787 Dreamliner could be left without oxygen if the cabin were to suffer a sudden decompression.

John Barnett says tests suggest up to a quarter of the oxygen systems could be faulty and might not work when needed.

He also claimed faulty parts were deliberately fitted to planes on the production line at one Boeing factory.

Boeing denies his accusations and says all its aircraft are built to the highest levels of safety and quality.

The firm has come under intense scrutiny in the wake of two catastrophic accidents involving another one of its planes, the 737 Max - the Ethiopian Airlines crash in March and Lion Air disaster in Indonesia last year.

Mr Barnett, a former quality control engineer, worked for Boeing for 32 years, until his retirement on health grounds in March 2017.

From 2010 he was employed as a quality manager at Boeing's factory in North Charleston, South Carolina.

This plant is one of two that are involved in building the 787 Dreamliner, a state-of-the-art modern airliner used widely on long-haul routes around the world. Despite early teething problems following its entry into service the aircraft has proved a hit with airlines, and a useful source of profits for the company.

But according to Mr Barnett, 57, the rush to get new aircraft off the production line meant that the assembly process was rushed and safety was compromised. The company denies this and insists that "safety, quality and integrity are at the core of Boeing's values".

In 2016, he tells the BBC, he uncovered problems with emergency oxygen systems. These are supposed to keep passengers and crew alive if the cabin pressurisation fails for any reason at altitude. Breathing masks are meant to drop down from the ceiling, which then supply oxygen from a gas cylinder.

Without such systems, the occupants of a plane would rapidly be incapacitated. At 35,000ft, (10,600m) they would be unconscious in less than a minute. At 40,000ft, it could happen within 20 seconds. Brain damage and even death could follow.

Although sudden decompression events are rare, they do happen. In April 2018, for example, a window blew out of a Southwest Airlines aircraft, after being hit by debris from a damaged engine. One passenger sitting beside the window suffered serious injuries and later died as a result - but others were able to draw on the emergency oxygen supplies and survived unharmed.

Mr Barnett says that when he was decommissioning systems which had suffered minor cosmetic damage, he found that some of the oxygen bottles were not discharging when they were meant to. He subsequently arranged for a controlled test to be carried out by Boeing's own research and development unit.

This test, which used oxygen systems that were "straight out of stock" and undamaged, was designed to mimic the way in which they would be deployed aboard an aircraft, using exactly the same electric current as a trigger. He says 300 systems were tested - and 75 of them did not deploy properly, a failure rate of 25%.

Mr Barnett says his attempts to have the matter looked at further were stonewalled by Boeing managers. In 2017, he complained to the US regulator, the FAA, that no action had been taken to address the problem. The FAA, however, said it could not substantiate that claim, because Boeing had indicated it was working on the issue at the time.

Boeing itself rejects Mr Barnett's assertions.

It does concede that in 2017 it "identified some oxygen bottles received from the supplier that were not deploying properly. We removed those bottles from production so that no defective bottles were placed on airplanes, and we addressed the matter with our supplier".

But it also states that "every passenger oxygen system installed on our airplanes is tested multiple times before delivery to ensure it is functioning properly, and must pass those tests to remain on the airplane."

"The system is also tested at regular intervals once the airplane enters service," it says.

This is not the only allegation levelled at Boeing regarding the South Carolina plant, however. Mr Barnett also says that Boeing failed to follow its own procedures, intended to track parts through the assembly process, allowing a number of defective items to be "lost".

He claims that under-pressure workers even fitted sub-standard parts from scrap bins to aircraft on the production line, in at least one case with the knowledge of a senior manager. He says this was done to save time, because "Boeing South Carolina is strictly driven by schedule and cost".

On the matter of parts being lost, in early 2017 a review by the Federal Aviation Administration upheld Mr Barnett's concerns, establishing that the location of at least 53 "non-conforming" parts was unknown, and that they were considered lost. Boeing was ordered to take remedial action.

Since then, the company says, it has "fully resolved the FAA's findings with regard to part traceability, and implemented corrective actions to prevent recurrence". It has made no further comment about the possibility of non-conforming parts making it on to completed aircraft - although insiders at the North Charleston plant insist it could not happen.

Mr Barnett is currently taking legal action against Boeing, which he accuses of denigrating his character and hampering his career because of the issues he pointed out, ultimately leading to his retirement. The company's response is that he had long-standing plans to retire, and did so voluntarily. It says "Boeing has in no way negatively impacted Mr Barnett's ability to continue in whatever chosen profession he so wishes".

The company says it offers its employees a number of channels for raising concerns and complaints, and has rigorous processes in place to protect them and make sure the issues they draw attention to are considered. It says: "We encourage and expect our employees to raise concerns and when they do, we thoroughly investigate and fully resolve them."

But Mr Barnett is not the only Boeing employee to have raised concerns about Boeing's manufacturing processes. Earlier this year, for example, it emerged that following the Ethiopian Airlines 737 Max crash, four current or former employees contacted an FAA hotline to report potential issues.

Mr Barnett believes that the concerns he has highlighted reflect a corporate culture that is "all about speed, cost-cutting and bean count (jobs sold)". He claims managers are "not concerned about safety, just meeting schedule".

That's a view which has support from another former engineer, Adam Dickson, who was involved with the development of the 737 Max at Boeing's Renton factory in Washington state.

He tells the BBC there was "a drive to keep the aeroplanes moving through the factory. There were often pressures to keep production levels up.

"My team constantly fought the factory on processes and quality. And our senior managers were no help."

In congressional hearings in October, Democratic congressman Albio Sires quoted from an email sent by a senior manager on the 737 Max production line.

In it, the manager complained about workers being "exhausted" from having to work at a very high pace for an extended period.

He said that schedule pressure was "creating a culture where employees are either deliberately or unconsciously circumventing established processes", adversely affecting quality.

For the first time in his life, the email's author said, he was hesitant about allowing his family aboard a Boeing aircraft.

Boeing says that together with the FAA, it implements a "rigorous inspection process" to ensure its aircraft are safe, and that all of them go through "multiple safety and test flights" as well as extensive inspections before they are allowed to leave the factory.

Boeing recently commissioned an independent review of its safety processes, which it says "found rigorous enforcement of, and compliance with, both the FAA's aircraft certification standards and Boeing's aircraft design and engineering requirements." It said that the review had "established that the design and development of the [737] Max was done in line with the procedures and processes that have consistently produced safe airplanes."

Nevertheless, as a result of that review, in late September the company announced a number of changes to its safety structures. They include the creation of a new "product and services safety organization".

It will be charged with reviewing all aspects of product safety "including investigating cases of undue pressure and anonymous product and safety concerns raised by employees".

Mr Barnett, meanwhile, remains deeply concerned about the safety of the aircraft he helped to build.

"Based on my years of experience and past history of plane accidents, I believe it's just a matter of time before something big happens with a 787," he says.

"I pray that I am wrong."

Boeing whistleblower raises doubts over 787 oxygen system - BBC News

----------


## Troy

^ Old news that was fixed months ago...

----------


## Takeovers

> Old news that was fixed months ago...


Maybe. But it shows again callous disregard of safety by Boeing. Even if they fixed it later.

----------


## OhOh

Four Boeing related articles:

*Certification process for 777X is another hurdle for Boeing.*Certification process for 777X is another hurdle for Boeing - Leeham News and Analysis
*Boeing hasn’t hit bottom yet. Neither have suppliers.*Boeing hasn't hit bottom yet. Neither have suppliers. - Leeham News and Analysis*Southwest extends 737 MAX cancellations through June 6*Southwest extends 737 MAX cancellations through June 6 - Reuters*

China's Xiamen Airlines, a Boeing operator, looks to bring Airbus jets in its fleet.*
China's Xiamen Airlines, a Boeing operator, looks to bring Airbus jets in its fleet - Reuters

----------


## OhOh

It appears Airbus made a good deal, Bombardier designs good planes, airlines can make new routes profitable and passangers get business class seats in economy.A win/win/win/win, although the Chinese bid was refused due to political pressure.

*Air Canada inaugurates A220-300 service today*


_
"Air Canada inaugurates Airbus A220-300 service today, becoming the  second North American carrier to operate the A220. Delta Air Lines was  the first, with the A220-100 last year.

__It is the first North American airline to operate the -300 model. The new service begins on the Montreal-Calgary route.
_
_Airline and Airbus officials paid homage to Bombardier at a  celebration yesterday in an Air Canada hanger down the block from  Bombardier’s world headquarters on the edges of Montreal Dorval Airport.
_
_Bombardier designed the aircraft, originally called C Series, in a bet-the-company challenge to Airbus and Boeing._


*Betting the company*

_Smaller by several factors of magnitude and over-committed by  launching two corporate jet programs at the same time, Bombardier lost  the bet. It nearly went bankrupt, requiring a government bailout. This  wasn’t enough: it sold 50.01% of the program to Airbus for $1.  Bombardier retains about a third and a pension fund the rest.
_
_Bombardier placed a second bet that this share will reap financial rewards because of the greater marketing power Airbus has._
_So far, this bet seems to be working. Airbus now has more than 600 orders, vs 300 won by Bombardier.
_
_Christian Scherer, chief commercial officer for Airbus, said the A220  “sells itself.” This may be a bit of sales hype, but for the moment,  Scherer doesn’t have delivery slots for the A320 family until well into  this decade.
_
_The A220 is his prime offering. Airbus, which took over Bombardier’s  Montreal Mirabel production factory, already is expanding facilities.  Airbus is pressing to bring production up to 10/mo by 2023-24. Airbus is  also building an A220 final assembly lines, paid for by Bombardier, in  Mobile (AL). This will have an initial capacity of 4/mo. This new  factory opens in June, albeit at an initial low rate production.
_
*A220 economics better than A320neo, 737-8*

_Scherer said the A220-300 economics are better than the slightly  larger A320neo and Boeing 737-8. The A220-300 is directly competitive  with the Airbus A319neo and the Boeing 737-7.
_
_Air Canada configures the -300 with 137 passengers in business and  coach classes. The typical two-class configuration for the A320neo is  about 156 seats. The 737-8’s typical configuration is about 172 seats.
_
_Still, Scherer said the seat mile costs of the -300 are up to 5%  better than these two airplanes. The trip costs are 7%-10% better, he  said on the sidelines of the event.
_
_An Air Canada said the coach seats, in 2×3 layout, are all 19 inches  wide. When Bombardier designed the airplane, the seat widths were  18.5-19-18.5 inches. Air Canada retained the original aisle width but  narrowed the armrests slightly to gain the window/aisle seat width.
_
_The 19-inch seats make this the widest passenger seating in a narrow  body aircraft and wider than most coach seats in twin-aisle aircraft.
_
*New, thin routes
*

_Air Canada will use the A220 to open new, thin non-stop routes that  can’t support the larger A320 or 737. One of the first, which opens in  May, will be between Seattle and Montreal. This has been outside the  range of the Embraer E190 it replaces. The A220 has a 3,200nm range. The  smaller capacity will, in theory, turn a loss-making route on the A320  or 737 into a profitable one on the more economical aircraft.
_
_Air Canada’s Toronto and Montreal hubs are highly seasonal (as it the  Seattle market). The smaller, more economical A220 should help turn  more consistent profits on seasonal routes as well."
_
Air Canada inaugurates A220-300 service today - Leeham News and Analysis

----------


## harrybarracuda

It seems Bombardier are regretting selling half of the A2xx. Bit late now.

----------


## Klondyke

*Staff emails claim Boeing 777X ‘shares Max problem’

*Boeing’s new flagship, the 777X, is threatened with similar safety failings to the US aerospace giant’s ill-fated 737 Max, according to internal emails.

Damning messages released as part of a US Senate probe into two 737 Max fatal crashes highlight Boeing staff fears that the 777X – a modified version of an existing plane – may be vulnerable to technical problems.

In an email from June 2018, before the first Max crash, one Boeing worker wrote: “Best part is we are re-starting this whole thing with the 777X with the same supplier and have signed up to an even more aggressive schedule.”

Another member of staff warns about a relentless cost focus, saying: “We put ourselves in this position by picking the lowest-cost supplier and signing up to impossible schedules. Why did the lowest ranking and most unproven supplier receive the contract? Solely based on the bottom dollar. Not just the Max but also the 777X! Supplier management drives all these decisions.”...

Read more
Staff emails claim Boeing 777X âshares Max problemâ

----------


## Klondyke

*Delta ordered to pay $50,000 fine over allegations it discriminated against Muslim passengers
*25 Jan 2020(CNN)The US Department of Transportation ordered Delta Air Lines on Friday to pay a $50,000 fine to settle allegations it violated federal law by discriminating against Muslim passengers.

The department released a consent order that alleges Delta "engaged in discriminatory conduct" against three Muslim passengers on two separate incidents in 2016, including one flight from Paris to Ohio and another flight from Amsterdam to New York City. In both instances, the passengers were removed from their seats after flight attendants and fellow passengers became nervous, citing their behavior, according to the order.

The order notes that the captain of an aircraft "is the final authority as to the operation of that aircraft, including any decision to refuse to transport a passenger." But the order says that authority does not allow discrimination based on "race, color, national origin, religion, ethnicity, or sex."

Read more
Delta ordered to pay $50,000 fine over allegations it discriminated against Muslim passengers - CNNPolitics

----------


## prawnograph

Three NZers in the news last week when denied their business class seating on a Thai Air flight



Huhana Iripa, 59, and her daughters Renell, 28, and Tere, 37, were accosted with measuring tapes ahead of their Bangkok to Auckland flight, with crew stating seatbelts in the high-end section of the aircraft would not reach to fit around them.

The daughters has been in Thailand for weight loss surgery and had each paid $2650 for the flights, including the business-class seats for the way back to ensure greater comfort.

We were utterly humiliated in front of all the other passengers. We went up to business class check-in and the member of staff on the desk looked at us and said 'sorry you can't'.

"The next thing, there were about five members of staff all around talking in their native language, shaking their heads and looking at us as if we'd committed a crime.

"A staff member then came forward and started saying 'no, you're too big, you're too big'.

"She then pulled out a measuring tape and wrapped it around my daughter Renell, moving her arms outstretched, before trying to do the same to me and Tere.

Thai Airways made headlines in 2018 with stories about the airline banning "fat people". It came after they disallowed those with waists bigger than 56 inches to fly in their new Dreamliner 787-900 business-class seats  the aircraft type the Iripa family were travelling on.

The seatbelts have airbags in them, which they say cannot be extended for safety reasons.

Thai Airways International New Zealand spokesman Wayne Cochrane said: "The new 787-900 Dreamliner aircraft used on flights between New Zealand and Thailand is fitted with integrated airbag seatbelts in business class.

"The extension seatbelt normally used to accommodate oversize passengers cannot be fitted to the airbag seatbelts; therefore passengers not able to fit the standard airbag seatbelt cannot be carried in business class.

"As this issue involves passenger safety, I am sure you will understand that we cannot compromise on this."

----------


## knowsitlike

^ wow difficult case for the airline to handle, ideally you would offer them a different routing via SYD or something

----------


## Troy

Sea freight....

----------


## OhOh

double post.

----------


## OhOh

An important part of the story was missed:

_"The trio were moved to three economy seats."_

Thai Airways deny Auckland women business class seats on flight because of weight - NZ Herald

It's not stipulated whether that was each passenger, or for all three.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> The daughters has _<sic>_ been in Thailand for weight loss surgery


How fucking big were they on the way there then?

----------


## OhOh

THE LORD brought them and on Diplomatic Passports. :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

I see the jinglies are trying to flog their national carrier....




> The government of India is again making an attempt to find a buyer for financially struggling national carrier Air India.
> It first tried to sell the government-owned airline two years ago, but did not manage to attract bidders.
> On Monday, domestic investors were invited to make bids for Air India, this time with less strict conditions. The government is looking to sell all 100 percent it holds in the carrier, as well as its subsidiaries, to a potential buyer.
> Terms state that the company must remain in India, therefore ruling out foreign investors in the process.
> 1932-founded Air India currently has billions of dollars in debt. It is estimated to be one of the most loss-making airlines in the world. The holding company Air India Limited made more than US $1.2 billion in losses in the 2018-2019 financial year.
> The national airline operates more than 120 aircraft in its fleet, using Airbus A320 family airplanes for mostly domestic short and medium distance flights, and Boeing 747, 777 and 787 on international long haul routes. Low-cost subsidiary Air India Express flies 25 Boeing 737-800. Furthermore, a number of ATR turboprop aircraft are operated by another subsidiary, Alliance Air, under the Air India Regional brand. Combined, the airlines have more than 16,000 employees.
> In April 2019, competitor Jet Airways, at the time India’s oldest privately-owned airline, ceased operations after failing to secure emergency funding.
> 
> https://www.ifn.news/posts/indian-government-tries-to-sell-national-carrier-air-india/

----------


## David48atTD

Boeing whistleblower claims Dreamliner aircraft isn’t safe


CREDIT

A Boeing whistleblower claims none of the aircraft that left the company’s North Charleston factory are airworthy.

John Barnett, a former quality manager for the company, said he wouldn’t fly on the plane because of safety concerns.
Mr Barnett worked for Boeing for 30 years but said of often begged family not to fly on its Dreamliners.


The  company is facing intense scrutiny after two of its 737 MAX 8 planes  were involved in fatal crashes in the last 18 months but now its 787  Dreamliner is also facing allegations of safety problems.
“I would  not fly on a Dreamliner and I’ve asked my family and begged my family  not to fly Dreamliners because I know, I know what’s under the skin,” Mr  Barnett told the ABC.


 
“I know what’s flying around out there — and it’s scary.
“I haven’t seen a plane out of Charleston yet that I would consider safe and airworthy.”
Mr Barnett said he saw metal shaving scraps had fallen near electrical wiring on some completed planes.
He alerted management because he thought it was a fire risk, but said he was brushed off and moved to another area.


Rest of the article is here ... No Cookies | The Mercury

----------


## David48atTD

More dirt on Boeing from a former senior manager.

---

Troubled 737 MAX Boeing airplane had at least 13 other safety incidents, ex-employee says

A former senior manager at Boeing, who urged the company to shut down  the 737 MAX factory, has revealed the fleet experienced at least 13  other safety incidents in the aircraft's short lifespan.

*Ex-Boeing manager recommend factory be shut down after seeing 'chaos'*



^ Ed Pierson joined Boeing in 2008 after retiring from the Navy as a Captain following three decades of service.

By mid-2018, Mr Pierson said the factory was in a state of "chaos,"  which compelled him to raise his concerns with senior management.
"_Frankly,  right now all my internal alarm bells are going off," Mr Pierson said  in an email to Scott Campbell, the general manager of the 737 MAX  program.
__"For the first time in my life, I'm sorry to say that I'm hesitant about putting my family on a Boeing airplane._" 
"My dad was a homicide detective and I remember as a kid, he told me  how important it was to get information to investigators and for  investigators to keep an open mind, so that was my intent," he said.
But he was stonewalled by both Boeing and the safety authorities, which motivated him to do his own digging.



For the full article and, importantly, the interview, here ... *Troubled 737 MAX Boeing airplane had at least 13 other safety incidents, ex-employee says - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
*

----------


## misskit

CM to get direct service to Phnom Pehn, Nok to restart Mae Sot service



Among countless canceled services into Chiang Mai International Airport due to the ongoing spread of the Wuhan coronavirus (COVID-19) there’s finally some good news today with a new service connecting the rose of the north to Cambodia and an old service being restored after six years.


JC Airlines is connecting CNX with Phnom Penh International Airport, the first time the two cities have been connected with a direct flight.


The new service starts March 10 and will run twice weekly with a return service Tuesday and Friday using an Airbus A320. QD634 leaves PNH at 3:10 p.m. before arriving at CNX at 4:50 p.m. The return flight, QD635 departs CNX at 5:50 p.m. before arriving at PNH at 7:30 p.m.





Nok Air is set to once again connect Chiang Mai with Mae Sot in Tak with a service starting March 31. Nok Air previously served the route until April 2014.


The return service, using a Dash8-Q400 aircraft will run three times a week although which days were not available at the time of writing.


DD8650 departs CNX at 6:10 a.m. arriving at MAQ at 7:10 a.m. The return service leaves MAQ at 7:40 a.m. before arriving back in CNX at 8:50 a.m.


The service is notable as it’s the second schedule flight servicing Mae Sot Airport. Nok currently services the airport with a direct service to Bangkok-Don Mueang.

CM to get direct service to Phnom Pehn, Nok to restart Mae Sot service | Chiang Mai One

----------


## misskit

*Airlines scramble to slash ticket prices*The unease caused by Covid-19 is expected to drag down Thai tourism for more than six months, triggering airlines to slash ticket prices to steer the market, while Nok Air and Nokscoot cut pilots and cabin crew to save cost.


Thai Airways International (THAI) is partnering with the Tourism Authority of Thailand (TAT) to offer discounts such as free domestic tickets to international tourists. Low-cost carriers plan to focus on local tourists opting for domestic travel as there is a limited number of outbound choices free from the virus.


Thai AirAsia is providing 100-baht discounts for any domestic routes within a designated period, while Nok Air is offering one-way ticket prices for domestic routes starting from 680 baht this month. Vietjet Air has marked down all routes across Thailand by 50%.

MORE Airlines scramble to slash ticket prices

----------


## lom

> Thai AirAsia is providing 100-baht discounts for any domestic routes within a designated period


Wow! That's very nice of them, a whole 100baht, that will surely attract customers!

----------


## OhOh

> a whole 100baht,


I don't think MK reads anything she posts. Certainly no opinions to see.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> I don't think MK reads anything she posts. Certainly no opinions to see.


It was a news post in a news thread.

Don't come back in here throwing a fucking strop just because your feelings were hurt.

----------


## OhOh

> It was a news post in a news thread.


I hope your not suggesting MK, being female, doesn't understand such "manly" topics or the key fact of the article, the THB 100 "discount" is a miniscule amount.

I would suggest to post a "news post" the poster believes it is of some value/importance.

I would also suggest the poster replies herself, rather than relying on your opinion. But she seldom does so I wont hold my breath.

Unless it's one of your multi-nicks. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## harrybarracuda

> I hope your not suggesting MK, being female, doesn't understand such "manly" topics or the key fact of the article, the THB 100 "discount" is a miniscule amount.
> 
> I would suggest to post a "news post" the poster believes it is of some value/importance.
> 
> I would also suggest the poster replies herself, rather than relying on your opinion. But she seldom does so I wont hold my breath.
> 
> Unless it's one of your multi-nicks.


I would suggest you go and fuck yourself before whinging about people posting news stories in news threads.

----------


## CaptainNemo

> *Airlines scramble to slash ticket prices*The unease caused by Covid-19 is expected to drag down Thai tourism for more than six months, triggering airlines to slash ticket prices to steer the market, while Nok Air and Nokscoot cut pilots and cabin crew to save cost.
> 
> 
> Thai Airways International (THAI) is partnering with the Tourism Authority of Thailand (TAT) to offer discounts such as free domestic tickets to international tourists. Low-cost carriers plan to focus on local tourists opting for domestic travel as there is a limited number of outbound choices free from the virus.
> 
> 
> Thai AirAsia is providing 100-baht discounts for any domestic routes within a designated period, while Nok Air is offering one-way ticket prices for domestic routes starting from 680 baht this month. Vietjet Air has marked down all routes across Thailand by 50%.
> 
> MORE Airlines scramble to slash ticket prices


That sounds good... But will they let you fly back if you start coughing, sneezing, or are a bit warm?
Fingers crossed for some ASEAN regional flight deals.
Still waiting to hear how far it's spread in Indonesia.

----------


## hallelujah

> *Airlines scramble to slash ticket prices*
> 
> 
> The unease caused by Covid-19 is expected to drag down Thai tourism for more than six months, triggering airlines to slash ticket prices to steer the market, while Nok Air and Nokscoot cut pilots and cabin crew to save cost.
> 
> 
> Thai Airways International (THAI) is partnering with the Tourism Authority of Thailand (TAT) to offer discounts such as free domestic tickets to international tourists. Low-cost carriers plan to focus on local tourists opting for domestic travel as there is a limited number of outbound choices free from the virus.
> 
> 
> ...


Air Asia have been offering return flights this week from KL to Seoul for as little as 170 ringgit. That's just over 30 quid.

Oddly enough, it seems to have increased this weekend to about 60 quid each way. Still an excellent deal, of course.

----------


## Klondyke

> from KL to Seoul for as little as 170 ringgit.


Not to mention the flights to Wuhan for 1 Baht (one way only)...

----------


## hallelujah

> Not to mention the flights to Wuhan for 1 Baht (one way only)...


Sounds like a decent deal unless you're falling apart and/or are 70 plus.

----------


## Klondyke

> unless you're falling apart and/or are 70 plus.


Who's not?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Still waiting to hear how far it's spread in Indonesia.


The Indos are asking Saudi to make an exception for their thousands of pilgrims because they haven't had a single case.

----------


## TizMe

> The Indos are asking Saudi to make an exception for their thousands of pilgrims because they haven't had a single case.


Yet Singapore is finding people with the virus that have recently returned from Indonesia.

----------


## harrybarracuda

British Airways will cancel more than 400 flights, while budget carrier Ryanair is cutting capacity to and from Italy.


BA’s affected flights are between 16 and 28 March from Heathrow airport to cities in Europe, although one daily British Airways flight to New York’s JFK airport will be cut.


Around 26 British Airways Cityflyer flights between London City Airport and airports in Germany and Italy across the same time period are also cancelled due to coronavirus fears.


BA said today: “We will be contacting customers on cancelled flights so we can discuss their travel options, including rebooking onto other carriers where possible, full refunds or booking with BA for a later date of travel”.


The UK’s flag carrier airline is trying to shore up demand by scrapping all change fees on flights booked in the next two weeks, so “customer can book with confidence”.


Rival carrier Ryanair will cut around 25 per cent of flights between UK and Italy – the epicentre of the coronavirus outbreak in Europe.


Flights booked for travel between 17 March and 8 April may be affected.

Coronavirus: British Airways and Ryanair cancel hundreds of flights as demand sinks - CityAM : CityAM

----------


## harrybarracuda

A Thai Airways A330-300 has nearly ripped the tail off a Gulfstream IV private jet during a taxiing accident in Vientiane, Laos.








The accident occurred in darkness on 9 March as the A330 (HS-TEU) prepared to operate flight TG575 on the Vientiane-Bangkok Suvarnabhumi route, according to Thai Airways.


“When the pilot took the plane out to the taxiway, its wing collided with the tail of a small personal plane.”

Images on social media show that the outboard leading edge of the A330’s left wing suffered damage.

As for the private jet, M-YWAY, the entire tail plane was nearly torn off, coming to rest on the right-side horizontal stabilizer. The front landing gear also appears to have been severely twisted in its mounting. 

The Thai aircraft was carrying 79 passengers and 13 crew, all of whom are safe, says the airline.


Cirium fleets data indicates that HS-TEU is managed by Thai and was delivered in March 2010, though it only entered service in June 2011.

The private jet, M-YWAY, is managed and operated by Blue Sky Leasing of the Cayman Islands. It entered service in 2002 for Philip Morris, and was obtained by Blue Sky in 2010.

https://www.flightglobal.com/thai-a330-shears-tail-off-gulfstream-iv-in-vientiane/137157.article

----------


## Lostandfound

79 passengers on an A330.  Times really are tough in the airline business

----------


## Troy

^ Times are going to get a whole lot tougher if this coronavirus continues unabated for a few more months.

Plenty of airlines running on the verge of collapse at the moment. This is going to hit Thai Airlines big time...

----------


## Takeovers

> Times are going to get a whole lot tougher if this coronavirus continues unabated for a few more months.


Continue? Except possibly in China it has not even started yet.

I heard a german top expert not quite but almost suggest yesterday. Let the disease spread among the children and healthy adults, they will survive. Quarantine at home people over 60/65 and groups at risk, people with heart disease, lung disease and diabetes. Once the wave of infections has gone through the general population those risk groups are at a lower risk of catching the infection. The health service can then cope with the severe cases.

I am almost 70 and only hope I can do my planned visit of Brownsville Texas end of April, before the big camp down happens.

----------


## OhOh

Is Germany virus clear, are citizens arriving in the US/returning from infected US allowed entry?

Does your health insurance cover you for the virus?

----------


## lom

> Plenty of airlines running on the verge of collapse at the moment.


Well, they won't be in a hurry to get their 737MAX..

----------


## Takeovers

> Is Germany virus clear, are citizens arriving in the US/returning from infected US allowed entry?
> 
> Does your health insurance cover you for the virus?



Health insurance covers it. 

Our infection rate is still low but there are cases all over the country. Sports frequently without spectators.

Flights to the US are still going. I just hope they still go end of next month. This was going to be the trip of my life. Watching rockets being built, the type that will get people to Mars. I just don't want this to be the last flight of my life.

----------


## OhOh

> the last flight of my life


Sneak onto a practise run. Sitting on top of an engine testlng rocket would be some experience.




> they won't be in a hurry to get their 737MAX..


Or any Airbus's either.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Is Germany virus clear


HoHo: Spends days trawling the interwebs for the most obscure and outlandish pro-chinky or pro-Vlad bullshit you could ever find, but ask him how many Germans have coronavirus and his Bing hand seizes up.....


 :rofl:

----------


## harrybarracuda

The Eurocrats have finally realised that airlines are flying empty flights because they are scared to lose their slots.

Very fucking ecofriendly.




> The European Union will suspend a rule requiring airlines to run most of their scheduled services or else forfeit landing slots, to give carriers some breathing space as the coronavirus crisis deepens, EU chief Ursula von der Leyen has said.
> 
> 
> The decision came as the world's airlines scrambled to deal with the worsening virus epidemic and Italy's lockdown, which have hammered passenger numbers and forced the cancellation of thousands of flights.
> 
> Ms Von der Leyen, European Commission president, said the suspension of the rule would do away with "ghost flights" where airlines fly almost empty planes simply to keep their slots.
> 
> "The Commission will put forward, very rapidly, legislation," she said. "We want to make it easier for airlines to keep their airport slot even if they do not operate flights in those slots because of the declining traffic.
> 
> ...

----------


## OhOh

> ask him how many Germans have coronavirus


It's not a problem where I live. No reported local cases and Makro offer free testing and hand gel every time you enter the store.

No requirement for toilet tissue either. Females use wild plant leaves for their more robust cleansing requirements.

Rural Asia, where wild animals are considered a welcome culinary addition and the local Hong Thong a cure all/disinfectant.

A couple of deaths recently, both elderly males, stamped to death by wild Elephants.

----------


## Takeovers

Latest number ~1000 infected right now in Germany. But they do expect that 60-70% of the population will be infected eventually.

----------


## harrybarracuda

So not only are they "committed" to the flying coffin that is the 737MAX, RyanAir are doubling down by "committing" to the cheap chinky shit as well.

Not that I was ever going to fly that airline anyway.

 :Smile: 




> In 2011, Ryanair placed a memorandum of understanding for a 200 seat COMAC C919 variant. In an interview with Simple Flying on Tuesday, the airline’s CEO Michael O’Leary said that the low-cost carrier is still committed to the COMAC program.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> While aircraft have set list prices, airlines often get a healthy amount sliced off of the final cost. This is true for Ryanair with the Boeing 737 family. However, a challenge arises with the COMAC C919, with O’Leary commenting:
> 
> 
> “There’s not that much opportunity to lower the cost of aircraft there. There’s no particular new technology, it’s a glorified A320, where 85% of the costs are made up of components, the avionics and all the rest of it.” Adding that “the labor doesn’t form a huge proportion of the cost of an aircraft”.
> 
> Ryanair Still Committed To Chinese Built Aircraft Amid Airbus Boeing Duopoly - Simple Flying


At least he's honest enough to admit it's an A320 knock off.

----------


## OhOh

It will good to see how they survive his company's business model.

----------


## Bettyboo

Well, with the Chinese copy saving on "component, the avionics and all the rest of it" - what could possibly go wrong???

I f'kin hate the Ryan Air owner - I flew the airline once, never again - absolute cattlefest.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Well, with the Chinese copy saving on "component, the avionics and all the rest of it" - what could possibly go wrong???
> 
> I f'kin hate the Ryan Air owner - I flew the airline once, never again - absolute cattlefest.


I never had you down as a low rent chav Boo.



Oh, hang on....

----------


## Troy

If the coronavirus is gonna kill then let's pray it includes Ryanair...

I have never even thought of flying with them....but their marketing strategy and business model needs to die, die die

...Newquay West London....

WTF

----------


## NamPikToot

> If the coronavirus is gonna kill then let's pray it includes Ryanair...


Seconded but sadly the fuker that runs it will have squirreled enough away to be OK, i fooking hate the "bringing air misery to the masses" wanker.

----------


## OhOh

> Plenty of airlines running on the verge of collapse at the moment.


Apparenty not Ryan Air. #1 or 2 for profit margin (High number good) and debt/equity (low number good).



An upcoming shakeup in European skies - Leeham News and Analysis




> RyanAir are doubling down by "committing" to the cheap chinky shit as well.


As opposed to getting great discounts on "promised" Airbus and "unflyable/uncertified" Boing Boing .... 




> their marketing strategy and business model needs to die, die die


Highest profit and lowest debt is what all MD'S are paid to deliver.




> "bringing air misery to the masses" wanker.


A precise clear offer is extended, some believe the pain is acceptable. Who are we to judge free decisions of the highly educated, financially aware and APP savvy,  wester consumers? First time brown/yellow Asian hut dwellers is understandable, but the sophisticated, white masters, should know better.

----------


## OhOh

*A Year After The Second MAX Crashed Boeing Is Faced With Ruin*


*A Year After The Second MAX Crashed Boeing Is Faced With Ruin*

_"On top of the damage that misguided shareholder value policy caused  to Boeing's will now come the effects of an unprecedented pandemic.  Together they may well signal the end of a once great company.
_
_On March 10 2019 Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302  crashed shortly after taking off in Addis Adaba. All 157 people on  board died. It was the second crash of a Boeing 737 MAX airplane six  month after Lion Air Flight 610 had crashed and killed all 189 people on  board.
_
_Exactly a year ago Moon of Alabama published its first piece  about the MAX. At that time all MAX planes were grounded except in the  United States. We described Boeing's shoddy implementation of the  plane's maneuvering characteristics augmentation system (MCAS) and concluded:

__Today Boeing's share price dropped some 7.5%. I doubt that  it is enough to reflect the liability issues at hand. Every airline that  now had to ground its planes will ask for compensation. More than 330  people died and their families deserve redress. Orders for 737 MAX will  be canceled as passengers will avoid that type._ _Boeing will fix the MCAS problem by using more sensors or by  otherwise changing the procedures. But the bigger issue for the U.S.  aircraft industry might be the damage done to the FAA's reputation. If  the FAA is internationally seen as a lobbying agency for the U.S.  airline industry it will no longer be trusted and the industry will  suffer from it. It will have to run future certification processes  through a jungle of foreign agencies._
_
Congress should take up the FAA issue and ask why it failed.__
The MAX was developed and built as cheap as possible and not as safe  as possible. Boeing cut corners and deceived its customers and   regulators. Its management had only one thing in mind - the stock price  of Boeing and its so called shareholder value.
_
_All MAX planes, the 400 that existed at that time plus the 400 Boeing  has since built are still grounded. The accident investigation reports  for the Lion Air flight and the Ethiopian jet (pdf) make it clear that Boeing's penny wise but pound foolish MCAS implementation was the root cause of both accidents._
_
A reasonable fix for MCAS, which was first promise for April 2019, is  still not working. A re-certification of the type is still months away.  After pressure from the European regulator EASA additional fixes  will have to be applied to wire bundles under the cockpit which in case  of a short circuit could cause another crash of a plane.
_
_There are still dozens of open court cases and criminal  investigations against Boeing. It will have to pay more billions of  dollars for compensations.
_
_During the first two months of this year total orders for Boeing commercial planes were negative. There were 25 more cancellation,  or conversions of multiple MAX orders to fewer 787 order, than total  new orders. During the same time its competitor Airbus won net orders  for 274 commercial jets._
_
Since a year ago Boeing's share price has dropped from $440 in  February 2019 to today's opening price of $160 per share. The company  has developed a serious cash flow problem. It is now drawing down all credit lines it has with its banks. It is cutting all noncritical spending, instituted a hiring freeze and limits overtime._
_The commercial airline business is not the only part of Boeing which is in deep trouble. Its military and space programs have similar problems.
_
_The root cause for all this is Boeing's shareholder value mentality:
__This mad scramble for cash and the existential urge to  “preserve cash in challenging periods” comes after this master of  financial engineering – instead of aircraft engineering – blew, wasted,  and incinerated $43.4 billion on buying back its own shares, from June  2013 until the financial consequences of the two 737 MAX crashes finally  forced the company to end the practice. That $43.3 billion would come  in really handy right now._ _The sole purpose of share buybacks is to inflate the stock price  because they make the company itself the biggest buyer of its own  shares. But those $43 billion of share buybacks cost the company $43  billion in cash. Now those buybacks have stopped because Boeing needs  every dime of cash to stay liquid and alive, and shareholders, who’d  been so fond of those share buybacks, are now getting crushed by the  damage those share buybacks have done to Boeing’s financial position.
__Boeing's new CEO David Calhoun, who had been on Boeing's board for  ten years before taking up his new position, still does not get it. In a  January media call he demonstrated no change of mind:__
Calhoun said that nothing was wrong at Boeing. It is just  that foreign pilots are incompetent, that Boeing workers lack practice  and that its customers have no idea what they are talking about. Safety,  he says, is just a prerequisite for shareholder value, not an inherent  value in itself. Dividends must continue to flow, even when that  requires the company to take on more debt. Boeing should not develop new  airplanes as its derivatives of old ones can beat the competition.  Calhoun also wants to stay in his new positions as long as possible even  though he lacks the competence to fill it._ _In short - Calhoun said all the wrong things he possibly could have said.__
In a recent interview with the New York Times Calhoun blamed his predecessor for Boeing's trouble:__
In a wide-ranging interview this week, Mr. Calhoun  criticized his predecessor in blunt terms and said he was focused on  transforming the internal culture of a company mired in crisis after two  crashes killed 346 people. 
...
Before becoming the chief  executive, he vigorously defended Mr. Muilenburg, saying in a CNBC  appearance in November that Mr. Muilenburg “has done everything right”  and should not resign. One month later, the board ousted Mr. Muilenburg  [who walked away wih a USD 82,000,000] and announced Mr. Calhoun as his replacement.
__
Calhoun was forced to apologize after his attack on his predecessor. He has still to apologize for again blaming foreign pilots for crashing Boeing's badly engineered planes:__
When designing the Max, the company made a “fatal mistake”  by assuming pilots would immediately counteract a failure of new  software on the plane that played a role in the Lion Air and Ethiopian  Airlines accidents. But he implied that the pilots from Indonesia and  Ethiopia, “where pilots don’t have anywhere near the experience that  they have here in the U.S.,” were part of the problem, too._ _Asked whether he believed American pilots would have been able to  handle a malfunction of the software, Mr. Calhoun asked to speak off the  record. The New York Times declined to do so._

_“Forget it,” Mr. Calhoun then said. “You can guess the answer.”
__The stop of air travel due to the Coronavirus pandemic will cause  many airlines to go bankrupt. Many more Boeing and Airbus orders will  get canceled. Global air travel and orders for new airplanes will take  several years to crawl back to the pre-pandemic level. Five workers at  Boeing's widebody production line in Everett have come down with the Coronavirus disease and the production may have to be stopped._
_
The greedy mismanagement of previous years at Boeing brought the once  leading company to the border of ruin. The pandemic, and the global  depression it will cause, now make it certain that Boeing will have to  ask for a gigantic government bailout or go into bankruptcy."

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/0...ruin.html#more
_

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Apparenty not Ryan Air. #1 or 2 for profit margin (High number good) and debt/equity (low number good).


They prove that "Where there's muck there's brass".

----------


## Bettyboo

> I never had you down as a low rent chav Boo.


Once, 'Arry - once! I think it was something like Stanstead to Nice, a very convenient flight for a long weekend wining and dining with a sexy friend of mine who drove her way up from Spain and met me at the airport; much wine, much fine food, much sex, good times...

----------


## OhOh

*Canada revising deal aimed at validating U.S.-certified planes*


Transport Canada said on Thursday it is revising a deal that would have  reduced technical work done by the Canadian regulator when validating  Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) certified aircraft like the Boeing  737 MAX. 

Canada validated the FAA’s March 2017 certification of the 737 MAX  under a deal where such approvals by the United States are accepted by  Canada and vice versa with some additional oversight.  

The  aircraft was grounded a year ago following two crashes involving the  model, one in Indonesia in October 2018 and a second in Ethiopia in  March 2019. 

David Turnbull, director, national aircraft  certification for Transport Canada, told an Ottawa hearing that he did  not agree with the deal signed in November 2018 that would have  gradually reduced the Canadian regulator’s technical workload when  validating FAA-certified aircraft. 

“The mandate of  that activity is in the process of being rewritten,” he told the hearing  on aircraft certification and the 737 MAX. 

Turnbull did not specify why the deal would be changed. 

The  FAA has faced criticism for its practice of delegating a high level of  certification tasks to manufacturers such as Boeing, and for its review  of a safety system on the 737 MAX later tied to the crashes. 

Turnbull  said Transport Canada had planned to change the agreement, called the  validation improvement roadmap, before the two 737 MAX crashes, although  it was signed after the Lion Air crash on Oct. 29, 2018.  

“It  was signed, but I’m telling you here and now that the wording of that  was planned to be altered prior to these accidents I might add,” he  said.

The agreement would be discussed by the two regulators at a subsequent meeting, he said.  

Canada revising deal aimed at validating U.S.-certified planes - Reuters

----------


## crackerjack101

Jetstar cancelling SIN - BKK flights offering partial or full refunds.

----------


## misskit

Suvarnabhumi, Thai Airways Chiefs Quit Over Coronavirus

Teeranai Charuvastra 
Khao Sod English

BANGKOK  Frustration over the governments botched responses to the coronavirus epidemic reportedly caused two aviation czars to resign from their post on Thursday.


Sumeth Damrongchaitham quit the post of director of Thai Airways on Thursday afternoon, closely followed by the resignation of Sutheerawat Suwannawat, director of Suvarnabhumi Airport. The two organizations were among the hardest hit by the outbreak, which critics fear to be spiraling out of control.


Sumeth did not say why he left the position, but media reports quote Thai Airways sources as saying that he was disappointed by a lack of assistance from the Ministry of Transport in containing the virus.

MORE https://www.khaosodenglish.com/polit...r-coronavirus/

----------


## harrybarracuda

Aer Lingus owner IAG and EasyJet said they would cut capacity drastically to try to survive the coronavirus outbreak which has stopped people travelling around the world. 

IAG, the owner of Aer Lingus and BA, said it would cut its flying capacity by at least 75% in April and May.

IAG also said its outgoing boss Willie Walsh would defer his retirement in its fight to survive the coronavirus outbreak.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/0316/1123471-walsh-to-stay-on-at-iag/

----------


## misskit

THAI suspends all operations until May 31st

THAI acting president Mr. Chakkrit Parapanthukul said yesterday that the suspension is necessary because the global pandemic has prompted many countries to impose border closures and lockdowns, forcing many THAI offices abroad to close temporarily and making it impossible for the national flag carrier to operate to those destinations.


Compounded by a sharp reduction in passenger numbers, he added that the continuation of operations will increase the airline’s losses.


According to THAI’s public relations department:


Starting today (March 25th), all THAI flights from Bangkok to Hong Kong, Taipei, Tokyo, Osaka, Nagoya, Seoul, Phnom Penh, Vientiane, Ho Chi Minh City, Hanoi, Yangon, Singapore, Jakarta, Denpasar, Kunming, Xiamen, Chengdu, Beijing, Shanghai, Guangdong, Karachi, Kathmandu, Lahore, Dhaka, Islamabad and Colombo are suspended.

Domestically, flights to Chiang Mai, Phuket and Krabi will be operated by Thai Smile, a subsidiary of THAI.

Starting March 27th, THAI flights to Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne and Perth will be suspended.

From April 1st, THAI will cease all flights to Europe, which includes London, Frankfurt, Paris, Brussels, Copenhagen, Oslo, Moscow and Stockholm.

THAI has already suspended services to Sendai, Sapporo, Fukuoka, Pusan, Manila, Kuala Lumpur, Rome, Milan, Vienna, New Delhi, Mumbai, Calcutta, Genai, Hyderabad, Muscat Dubai, Oakland and Bengaluru.


Passengers who bought THAI tickets, or joint tickets with Thai Smile before March 25th, can exchange their tickets for travel vouchers, which are valid for one year without extra charge, on flights scheduled between March 25th and May 31st for Asian routes, and between April 1st and May 31st for European routes, as well as routes to New Zealand and Australia.


Alternatively, passengers can use the thaiairways.com website to changes their flight plans.



THAI suspends all operations until May 31st – Thai PBS World

----------


## Troy

^ Well, that cuts down my options...

----------


## NamPikToot

^^ not quite sure how we are supposed to get these magical vouchers, Buddha will clarify i feel sure.

----------


## OhOh

nah, the local lottery ticket seller knows the future.

----------


## misskit

Thai AirAsia to stop domestic flights in April

Thai AirAsia will suspend its domestic route service from April 1 to 30, while passengers can change their flights with no limit, the airline announced.


Santisuk Klongchaiya, the chief executive officer, informed AirAsia staff through an email on Friday (March 27) that the airline will suspend its domestic route throughout April, as a Covid-19 preventive measure when the emergency decree is in force.

“Covid-19 has led to numerous countries, including Thailand, enforcing strict measures to prevent the virus from spreading, and AirAsia in many countries has suspended flights this week,” he said.


“Thai AirAsia executives, therefore, have approved the suspension of our service as well, in line with the government’s policy and to protect our staff,” he said.

Passengers can change their flights with no limit, but the new flights must start within October 31. There is no charge for this change of flight.

Alternatively passengers can save the ticket value in the AirAsia BIG account for booking flights in the future within 365 days, after his/her credit limit is approved.


These options are for passengers who book the flight online through airasia.com.

Thai AirAsia to stop domestic flights in April

----------


## misskit

Seven Thai airlines are likely to seek a 16-billion-baht bailout from the Finance Ministry so they can keep employees while their services are suspended.


The carriers are Thai AirAsia, Thai Lion Air, Nok Air, Bangkok Airways, THAI Smile, Thai VietjetAir and Thai AirAsia X.


MORE Seven Thai airlines to seek B16bn bailout

----------


## Chico

^ No Thai air?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^ No Thai air?


51% owned by the Finance Ministry so they soak up the costs whatever.

Might be asking for a few layoffs and shit though.

----------


## Troy

I'd like to see a few budget airlines go out of business. I don't fly them,  don't trust them or their business models.

----------


## happynz

Emirates cancelled my wife's May 9 flight which is six weeks out. I guess they expect that the shutdown is going to last for some more time yet.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> I'd like to see a few budget airlines go out of business. I don't fly them,  don't trust them or their business models.


Not very clever. They provide competition, drives prices down and keep chavs off proper airlines.

----------


## Troy

^ fair points...but the proper airlines have dropped their standards to stay competitive.

----------


## Bogon

> Bangkok Airways


No remorse for me if these guys folded.

They could just sell Samui airport to the government and stop arse raping its customers on this one monopoly route.

----------


## Bettyboo

> ^ fair points...but the proper airlines have dropped their standards to stay competitive.


Some of these airlines are fantastic - Air Asia flew Incheon to DM, premier class (only 8 seats), flatbed, 40kgs luggage, decent(ish) food for 10,000 baht; the wife has flown that maybe a dozen times, and I've done it a couple of times. I'd be sad to see it lost. I've also done Thai Smile and Nok Air just walking into DM and flying to Phuket or Ubon R, etc, cheap as chips and get you there with little/no hassle. Bangkok Air were always expensive, but not a bad way to get to Samui. It'd be sad to see the smaller airlines go, just imagine how Thai Air would start raping everyone...

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^ fair points...but the proper airlines have dropped their standards to stay competitive.


You don't fly at the pointy end much then (although in fairness, at this point neither do I).

----------


## Switch

Out of curiosity, I checked prices for a proposed flight to UK In October this year. The quoted price was a reasonable GBP535 return.
Two days later, I received a price alert quoting the new best offer at GBP10,435!

----------


## harrybarracuda

LONDON (Reuters) - British Airways said it is temporarily suspending flights from Gatwick Airport in southern England, Britain’s second busiest airport, due to the coronavirus.
BA’s boss warned earlier in March that the airline was in a battle for survival and would have to cut jobs and park planes.

“Due to the considerable restrictions and challenging market environment, like many other airlines, we will temporarily suspend our flying schedule at Gatwick,” a BA spokesman said.
BA said it will contact affected customers. The airline continues to operate some flights from its main hub at Heathrow.

Parent company IAG said flying capacity would be down 75% in April and May.
Rival airline easyJet said on Monday that it had grounded its entire fleet.
Gatwick Airport said last week it would shut one of its two terminals on Wednesday.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-british-airways/british-airways-suspending-flights-from-londons-gatwick-idUKKBN21I0Q8?il=0&utm_source=reddit.com

----------


## harrybarracuda

Deputy Prime Minister Somkid Jatusripitak on Monday said the government will not allow ailing flag-carrier Thai Airways International Plc (THAI) to collapse and dismissed rumours of impending lay-offs as a result of the coronavirus crisis.

Mr Somkid said the government is ready to help the national airline, which was already beset with financial difficulties even before the pandemic began. While he insisted that THAI won't lay off any employees, the deputy premier urged the THAI board to come up with a business plan which proves that the company can still grow and expand after the crisis.

"All rumours [about a lay-off] aren't true. News involving THAI that didn't come from the Finance Ministry should be considered false," he said.

THAI employs about 20,000 staff, while its sister company Wingspan, which offers aviation-related services, has about 4,900 workers on its payroll.

The deputy premier said the Finance Ministry wants to see a proposal which clearly outlines how THAI plans to review its management structure and business strategies, so it can remain competitive in the aviation market once the pandemic subsides.

Because of the Covid-19 pandemic, THAI has temporarily suspended all of its international services (except charters and cargo flights) until May 31, while its low-cost subsidiary THAI Smile takes over its domestic services to Chiang Mai, Phuket and Krabi.

As a result of the decision, THAI's Executive Vice President for Finance and Accounting, Nattapong Samit-ampaipisarn, said the company will ground 69 of its 82 jets until the situation improves.

According to Mr Nattapong, travel restrictions imposed to curb the spread of the virus have hurt the company's operations significantly.

That said, air travel has not ground to a complete halt as THAI continues to operate cargo flights and stands ready to arrange special flights to repatriate Thais stranded abroad if requested, he said.

He added that THAI's other businesses, such as inflight catering and ground services, are still operating.

Amid the tough times, labour rights campaigners are calling on the government and airline companies to ensure fair treatment of workers in the aviation sector.

The State Enterprise Workers Relations Confederation and the Thai Labour Solidarity Committee yesterday said airlines should clearly specify when staff will be able to return to work and ensure that the crisis is not being used to trigger lay-offs.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/1889635/govt-wont-let-thai-go-under-somkid

----------


## Shutree

> Thai AirAsia to stop domestic flights in April
> 
> Thai AirAsia will suspend its domestic route service from April 1 to 30, while passengers can change their flights with no limit, the airline announced.
> 
> 
> Passengers can change their flights with no limit, but the new flights must start within October 31. There is no charge for this change of flight.
> 
> Alternatively passengers can save the ticket value in the AirAsia BIG account for booking flights in the future within 365 days, after his/her credit limit is approved.
> 
> ...


I had a flight booked on NokAir yesterday (30th) which was cancelled. Called their number, spoke to a very polite human being who promised a full refund into my bank account within a few days. Sorted.
Then I had a flight booked on AirAsia today (31st) CNX to Hanoi. Which was cancelled. I have tried repeatedly to use their online 'Assistant' and either get bounced off or stuck in a queue. The longest I have waited before giving up was 70 minutes. I understand that they are busy, so: get some more people! I paid for something they chose not to deliver. I want my money back. Should be simple. 
Maybe I should put AirAsia on the Moan of the Day thread.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> I understand that they are busy, so: get some more people! I paid for something they chose not to deliver. I want my money back. Should be simple.


You and absolutely everyone else booked on them. I would just learn to be patient, if this is peeving you, a couple of months of lock down will have you suicidal or homicidal.

 :Smile:

----------


## HuangLao

Airline business ethics.
Contradictory terminology.

----------


## Troy

^^^ less than a fortnight's notice of cancellation. They have to refund the money within a set time. I think it's two weeks but maybe longer. They'll have thousands of customers with the same problem. Relax, it'll get sorted. This is going to be one hell of a year.

----------


## Shutree

> You and absolutely everyone else booked on them. I would just learn to be patient


The main purpose of my message was to highlight how ethically andd promptly NokAir handled the issue. In stark contrast to AirAsia.
It isn't a question of patience, it is a matter of having to jump through thei hoops to get a refund. I spent 90 patient minutes of my life in a Helpline queue before giving up again this morning.
Just because many people are suffering too doesn't make AirAsia's shyster practices any less unethical.

Coronavirus: 'I don't want a flight voucher, where's my refund?' - BBC News

Anyway, whilst we are here, is anyone opening a book on which airlines will collapse and when?

My bet is that AirAsia will not be flying before the end of 2020.

----------


## aging one

> My bet is that AirAsia will not be flying before the end of 2020.


Well you would be wrong.. Nok is a very nice little low cost carrier. I have been flying with them for 10 years plus. Not any perks other than customer service that works, friendly ground staff and flight crews, and easy check in each and every time.

AA is a pain in the ass and I dont fly them for a simple reason. I get tired of having to tick away better seat extra luggage, and insurance. But they are the big player here in Asia.   You will get some refund, but when and how much nobody knows.  Most airlines take months to refund flights. This will be the same.  

Good luck though, I would take it easy for a while and let this mess die down a bit. I hope!!

----------


## harrybarracuda

THAI Smile Airways will temporarily suspend all domestic flights from Tuesday until the end of the month, the airline said on Friday.

The airline said it decided to cease operating on all domestic routes until April 30 in line with government restrictions on travel in the campaign against the spread of the coronavirus. 

A wholly owned subsidiary of Thai Airways International with a focus on regional budget services, THAI Smile stopped flying international routes on March 23. It also cancelled its route to Narathiwat on Wednesday.

It is still operating flights to Chiang Mai, Chiang Rai, Khon Kaen, Udon Thani, Ubon Ratchathani, Krabi, Surat Thani, Phuket and Hat Yai. Their last flights will be on Monday.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/1892690/thai-smile-to-halt-domestic-flights-from-tuesday

----------


## hallelujah

> I had a flight booked on NokAir yesterday (30th) which was cancelled. Called their number, spoke to a very polite human being who promised a full refund into my bank account within a few days. Sorted.
> Then I had a flight booked on AirAsia today (31st) CNX to Hanoi. Which was cancelled. I have tried repeatedly to use their online 'Assistant' and either get bounced off or stuck in a queue. The longest I have waited before giving up was 70 minutes. I understand that they are busy, so: get some more people! I paid for something they chose not to deliver. I want my money back. Should be simple. 
> Maybe I should put AirAsia on the Moan of the Day thread.


Air Asia are absolute fuckers to get a refund out of at the best of times.

----------


## PlanK

Got the "We're doing the best we can" impassioned plea email from Air Asia.

Emirates sent out something a bit more stoic about extending benefits until it's BAU again.

Air NZ was quite pessimistic with the suggestion that after this is all over it may act only as a regional airline for quite some time.

----------


## Chico

> Nok is a very nice little low cost carrier.


Low cost?, There on par with Thai air,and Thai smile the most expensive airlines in Thailand.

----------


## aging one

> Low cost?, There on par with Thai air,and Thai smile the most expensive airlines in Thailand.


Okay whatever you say. Being that you dont live here and are locked out I will disregard your stupid post.. :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

He makes a good point. If people don't need refunds, they should settle for vouchers.

It doesn't benefit customers long term if airlines go out of business.




> KUALA LUMPUR (Reuters) - The founders of Malaysias AirAsia Group Bhd (AIRA.KL) will not take salaries and its staff has agreed to an as much as 75% cut in pay due to the impact of the novel coronavirus outbreak on the airline, its chief executive said late on Saturday.
> 
> Tony Fernandes said in an Instagram post that he and Executive Chairman Kamarudin Meranun will not be taking a salary during this period, while staff from across the business have accepted temporary pay reductions of anywhere between 15-75%, depending on seniority, to share the impact this is having on our business.
> 
> The budget airline has no incoming revenue and 96% of its fleet is grounded, Fernandes said.
> 
> We still have significant ongoing financial commitments such as fuel suppliers and leasing agents, he said.
> 
> The airline has retained all its staff.
> ...


Malaysia's AirAsia founders not taking salary; staff accepts up to 75% pay cut - Reuters

----------


## Shutree

> My bet is that AirAsia will not be flying before the end of 2020.


"Fernandes said 96% of the groups fleet is grounded." 
AirAsia Gives Refunds On A Case-By-Case Basis If Passengers Decline Credit Voucher During COVID-19 Travel Cancellations

Not far off: only 4% flying. I am not saying that the group will go into liquidation. They have quite a cash pile and should survive 3 months of not flying, especially if the Malaysian government gives them a helping hand. I do believe some parts of the group will not make it though.

It was elsewhere reprted
AirAsia To Open Flight Booking From April 15
that AirAsia India would start accepting bookings from April 15th. I haven' t seen any updates to that story. The question is, who would pay for a flight that might not exist, knowing that they cannot get a refund?

----------


## harrybarracuda

South African Airways plans to lay off its entire 4,700-strong workforce after failing to persuade the government to provide more financial help, a move that threatens to ground the 86-year-old national carrier good.

The state-owned airline has offered severance deals to all staff from the end of this month after administrators concluded that a successful turnaround is now unlikely, according to a proposal to eight labor groups seen by Bloomberg News. The basic value of compensation will be one-month pay per year of service and will depend on the successful disposal of assets such as real estate, according to the document.

SAA has relied on bailouts and state-guaranteed debt agreements for years, having last made a profit in 2011, and was put into a form of bankruptcy protection in December. Public Enterprises Minister Pravin Gordhan said earlier this week that the cost of staving off the Covid-19 pandemic in the country meant no more cash could be extended, while Finance Minister Tito Mboweni said the carrier's closure could help shore up state finances.

The coronavirus may prove the final nail in the coffin for SAA, which was reducing routes and considering job cuts even before the outbreak forced airlines around the world to ground planes. The industry could lose $314 billion in ticket sales this year, according to the International Air Transport Association, as lockdowns and travel bans take an increasingly heavy toll on the global economy.

SAA has been flying cargo planes and chartered flights to countries such as Germany and Brazil in recent weeks, but no commercial passenger services. The plan to offer severance packages to all staff was first reported by News24 website.

The team of administrators led by Les Matuson and Sizwe Dongwana will now look to sell assets and raise cash to repay creditors. Two prized nighttime operating slots at London's Heathrow Airport could be up for grabs, people familiar with the situation said in February.

SAA is among several South African state-owned companies to have become technically insolvent without financial assistance from the government, following years of mismanagement and corruption scandals - particularly under the presidency of Jacob Zuma, which ended in 2018.

The airline has seen at least nine chief executive officer changes in the past decade, hampering attempts at a turnaround, while responsibility for the carrier was passed from the Department of Public Enterprises to the National Treasury and back again.

https://gulfnews.com/business/aviation/covid-19-south-african-airways-nears-collapse-with-plan-to-fire-all-staff-1.1587202593617

----------


## Switch

^One of the early casualties, with many more to come. Those who continue to provide international cargo services, will likely survive. The demand for such cargo will only expand as lockdowns continue.
The big aircraft suppliers might as well burn their future order books for passenger aircraft.

Executive travel has been undermined by lockdowns, and video conferencing will become the replacement for premium travel options. Thes options often underwrite the cost of cattle class travelers.
The only good news for airlines is the plummeting oil price, but I’m sure a few are already tied in to longer term future prices as a hedge against high fuel costs.

No way out for airlines now. Even the Chinese must be looking in wonder at the effects of clean air, now travel and industrial pollution has been curtailed.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Well at least it will be cheap - if they bother making it.




> LONDON/PARIS/SINGAPORE (Reuters) - Demand for flights and jet fuel could take years to recover from the coronavirus crisis as airlines struggle to survive their worst downturn, haunted by possible changes in the habits of tourists and business travellers.
> 
> Among the various fuels, jet has been hit hardest and industry leaders warn it will take years for all-important airline-industry demand to return to 2019 levels.
> 
> Jet fuel consumption will be impacted for a longer time and maybe not recover fully even next year, as travellers remain concerned about long-haul vacations, and businesses get used to online meetings, said Per Magnus Nysveen, head of analysis at Rystad Energy, a consultancy.
> 
> Exemptions for agriculture and freight from widespread lockdowns have offered some support to diesel and fuel oil, but jet demand remains weak as a significant slice of the worlds 23,000-strong commercial plane fleet is in storage.
> 
> Jet fuel prices in Singapore JET-SIN have slumped 61% over the last two months. Refining margins or cracks for jet fuel in Singapore JETSGCKMc1 are currently lingering at narrow premiums over Dubai crude after hitting minus $3.35 per barrel earlier this month, their lowest on record.
> ...

----------


## Switch

Probably the wrong thread for this, but it begs the question of long haul sea freight gaining ground on air cargo business.
Quarantine and disinfection business for shipping containers?

----------


## HuangLao

> ^One of the early casualties, with many more to come. Those who continue to provide international cargo services, will likely survive. The demand for such cargo will only expand as lockdowns continue.
> The big aircraft suppliers might as well burn their future order books for passenger aircraft.
> 
> Executive travel has been undermined by lockdowns, and video conferencing will become the replacement for premium travel options. Thes options often underwrite the cost of cattle class travelers.
> The only good news for airlines is the plummeting oil price, but I’m sure a few are already tied in to longer term future prices as a hedge against high fuel costs.
> 
> No way out for airlines now. Even the Chinese must be looking in wonder at the effects of clean air, now travel and industrial pollution has been curtailed.


Well constructed, Chas.
More than likely, we'll be seeing the death or curtailment of numerous government subsidized carriers. 
Among the survivors will be the airlines that are a nexus of independently private companies/slight government underwriting. 

I can also envision that most airlines will suspend their respective flying mileage points programs, which was a no win for most from the start.....as one might have noticed the periodic modification/restrictions of most frequent flyer policies over the years. Become an albatross on an already delicate industry. 

Slow boat to China beckons.

----------


## Troy

Conference calls have their drawbacks. Many meetings end up inconclusive due to Company policies on security/confidential matters. Meeting minutes don't get agreed especially when it comes to actions. Nothing like having the people there face to face. That's my experience anyway.. 

Airlines are going to struggle is stating the obvious. The ability to get to training facilities for airline and cargo pilots must be a problem for those not normally located at hubs. Low cost carriers will feel the most pain.

Not sure what prices will be like this year and next. Too big a price hike will kill the tourist industry. I prefer to keep some optimism for the future though.

----------


## Switch

Never underestimate a bean counter, especially one wh hates spending company money.

In essence, I agree. I have just postponed my Bahasa Indonesia course because the only current option is online.
Blue chip companies will have been using video conferencing for a long time now so they will be aware of the drawbacks mentioned. It simply means fewer jollies for employees. It will still expand, because costs have to be justified, particularly for premium travel. 
Dismissing it as unworkable simply means that some older employees will be resistant to change.
You were thinking of retiring anyway, so here’s some more wood for your pyre.

----------


## PlanK

Businesses will have to embrace encryption.

But in recent years governments have been fighting hard against this tech being available to Joe Public.  If you could find a non-CIA/non-CPC/non-Social Network owned/funded company supplying this to invest in you could be onto a winner.

----------


## harrybarracuda

I did a course in London in February, there were 8 of us in the classroom and 4 doing it remotely. Seems bean counters look at the travel expenses as something to avoid.

I have to say the online participants didn't participate much, the vast majority of questions and discussions were in the room.

I stay in touch with the instructor, he's a good lad. He tells me he's still doing courses, but running them out of his garage and all the participants are online.

The bean counters will have noticed.

So it's even going to hurt hotels and travel in the UK, and presumably in other countries the same way.

Even my boss was commenting on it.

Fortunately I don't do courses very often, this was more for compliance.  I prefer conferences and you can't get the networking sat at a computer.

There are quite a few emails I'm getting these days inviting me to attend "virtual conferences", and I just don't bother, if I want to see a particular speaker I'll watch the Facetubegram video on demand.

----------


## PlanK

Anyone wanna buy an airline?

Looks like Virgin Aus might be going cheap soon.




> Virgin  Australia is preparing to go into voluntary administration, sources  say, unable to survive under the weight of enormous debts and starved of  cash by the coronavirus travel shutdown.
> 
>  Australia's number two airline had already appointed Deloitte to looking at potential restructuring options and the accounting firm  is expected to run the administration process, including trying to find  new owners to keep it flying.
> 
>   Virgin's board of directors were meeting on Monday. One well-placed  source said the announcement of it going into administration was  "imminent".
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Virgin employs around 10,000 people directly and supports another 6000 jobs indirectly.


Coronavirus: Virgin Australia set for voluntary administration | Stuff.co.nz

----------


## Troy

Thai Airways cancelled my June flight. I thought they were going to reassess at the end of April. I was a little surprised as I thought flights to Germany would reopen by then.

Anyone heard anything regards when scheduled flights might start to ramp up? I thought they may start a service to major hubs only to start with but no news on Thai website since 8 April.

----------


## misskit

*AirAsia set to resume domestic flights in Thailand on May 1*

AirAsia is set to resume domestic flights in various Asian countries, commencing with Malaysia on April 29, followed by Thailand (May 1), the Philippines (May 1), India (May 4) and Indonesia (May 7), subject to government approval.

The resumption of services will initially start with key selected domestic routes, which will increase gradually to include international destinations once the situation improves and governments lift border and travel restrictions. The flights are already open for booking via the Airasia.com website and mobile application. Passengers can use their credit accounts to redeem points for these flights.

MORE AirAsia set to resume domestic flights in Thailand on May 1

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Anyone wanna buy an airline?
> 
> Looks like Virgin Aus might be going cheap soon.


No loss there. I wouldn't want to fly on an airline that doesn't go all the way.

_rat-a-tat-*ching*_

----------


## lom

> I wouldn't want to fly on an airline that doesn't go all the way.


I find it more worrying that they haven't previously done it

----------


## PlanK

> *AirAsia set to resume domestic flights in Thailand on May 1*



Do they fly to the Arab States?
They could stop off there next month, pick up some free fuel and a bonus payment for doing so.

----------


## OhOh

> Do they fly to the *Texas*?
> They could stop off there next month, pick up some free fuel and a bonus payment for doing so.


FIFY.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Do they fly to the Arab States?
> They could stop off there next month, pick up some free fuel and a bonus payment for doing so.


Air Asia X did fly to Scabby Dhabi but I don't know if they still do.

----------


## Switch

> Air Asia X did fly to Scabby Dhabi but I don't know if they still do.


It’s a proposal at the moment. The company will still require permission from national governments for take off and landing. Presumably the local CAA or equivalent will require proof of airworthiness of aircraft, after they have been grounded for long periods with minimal maintenance?

----------


## Troy

The aircraft will  be maintained on the ground, which is not a simple task. It is even worse in humid conditions so I wonder if Thai have parked some in Australia or similar. One good thing is there will be no excuse for deferred defects when they go back into service. I imagine it is a nightmare at the big airports at the moment...

----------


## harrybarracuda

I wouldn't be surprised to see at least one maintenance-related major incident when the skies are reopened.

----------


## PlanK

They may fly again with social distancing requirements meaning they can only sell half the seats.
Airfares doubled?

----------


## misskit

*Commercial flights face strict disease-control rules*

Commercial airlines have been told to adopt strict anti-disease transmission rules when they resume domestic flights on May 1, according to the Civil Aviation Authority of Thailand (CAAT).

While returning to the skies is the airlines' right, they must operate flights differently, said Chula Sukmanop, the CAAT director-general.


The airlines, mostly low-cost carriers, will meet the CAAT tomorrow to discuss guidelines and rules for restarting flights on May 1 following weeks of operational suspension as Covid-19 has caused air travel demand to dry up.


He said the rules, which factor in social distancing and disease-transmission prevention, include leaving empty seats in each row in cabins, requiring passengers to wear face masks and not serving food and drinks.

MORE Commercial flights face strict disease-control rules

----------


## harrybarracuda

> not serving food and drinks.


Well, to the riff raff, yes.

----------


## Switch

> Well, to the riff raff, yes.


This is domestic travel Harry. They only paid lip service to food and drink for budget travel anyway.

Will they be obliged to allow you to carry your own food and drink on board?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> This is domestic travel Harry. They only paid lip service to food and drink for budget travel anyway.


Good point.




> Will they be obliged to allow you to carry your own food and drink on board?


And a good question.

Would be hilarious to bring on a ziploc with a realistic stuffed bat and pangolin in it and say "I'm having Chinese for lunch".

----------


## misskit

*Flights back to normal by Oct 2021, says AOT
*

MORE
Flights back to normal by Oct 2021, says AOT

----------


## Troy

^ I'm not sure anyone is in a position to make such a prediction. Too many unknowns at this time.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^ I'm not sure anyone is in a position to make such a prediction. Too many unknowns at this time.


It's Thailand though isn't it. They're just relying on luck or short memories.

----------


## OhOh

> short memories


Smiling is a sure sign of "ฉันไม่เข้าใจ".

----------


## Switch

> The aircraft will be maintained on the ground


Really interesting that.

----------


## misskit

*Incoming flights ban extended to May 31*

The Civil Aviation Authority of Thailand (CAAT) on Monday decided to extend the ban on all incoming flights for another month, on continuing worries about the coronavirus pandemic.


The aviation regulator announced the extension ahead of the scheduled expiry date, April 30, on the grounds that the situation was worsening. The ban was also in support of the Centre for Covid-19 Situation Administration's battle to control the pandemic outbreak in Thailand, it said.


The announcement did not explain why CAAT believes the situation is getting worse, with many countries now looking to relax some restrictions. 

MORE Incoming flights ban extended to May 31

----------


## harrybarracuda

Welcome (back) to Air Asia.

----------


## baldrick

naked and lathered in vasaline would be better for protection

----------


## misskit

*Bangkok Airways to take to the air from May 15*

Bangkok Airways will resume its domestic operations from May 15, starting with the Bangkok-Samui-Bangkok flight twice daily.


All flight operations will strictly comply with safety measures and social distancing guidelines set by the Public Health Ministry and the Civil Aviation Authority of Thailand, the airline said.

The reopening of airports in Sukhothai and Trat and Bangkok Airways’ other routes will be announced later. 

The health and safety measures will include onboard seat distancing, suspension of in-flight food and beverage services and a ban on consumption of personal food or drink. All crew members will wear masks and gloves when on duty and passengers themselves are required to wear protective masks at all times during flights, the airline said.


Samui Airport is expected to reopen for daily operations on May 15 from 8am-7pm. The airport has put in place safety measures to “ensure the highest level of safety for all passengers and staff”.


The measures include passenger and staff screening, body temperature checks, a requirement that staff wear face masks at all times when on duty and social distancing arrangements.

Bangkok Airways to take to the air from May 15

----------


## misskit

*Domestic air travel guidelines issued

*
The government has announced guidelines on domestic air travel scheduled to resume on Friday.


Passengers must wear face masks at all times — from boarding to disembarking. If they fail to wear them at check-ins and cannot get one, they will not be allowed to fly.


They may not eat or drink anything on board.




Airlines


For airlines, the capacity of each flight must be limited by arranging at least one empty seat between passengers. The exceptions are when certain seats have enough empty space around them to prevent contact and spread of the disease; the carrier is a small plane with no more than 19 seats and is used for a chartered flight; or when the plane has no more than 90 seats in which case the operator may sell up to 70% of them.


MORE Domestic air travel guidelines issued

----------


## Iceman123

> The aircraft will be maintained on the ground


I would sincerely hope so.

----------


## klong toey

Any Rop members want a few extra miles.
Celebrate THAI 60th anniversary with Royal Orchid Plus miles x3

----------


## harrybarracuda

British Airways has told staff that its Gatwick airport operation may not reopen after the coronavirus pandemic passes.

The admission came in a memo, written by the head of BA's Gatwick hub and seen by BBC News.

BA's Gatwick operation, which is currently suspended, is roughly a fifth as big as its Heathrow hub.

In a separate letter to pilots, BA said it cannot rule out suspending the rest of its Heathrow operation.

In the memo to Gatwick's staff, the company says: "As you know, we suspended our Gatwick flying schedule at the start of April and there is no certainty as to when or if these services can or will return."

In the letter to pilots, BA notes that some of its rivals abroad are facing tough competition. It adds that a quarter of BA's 4,300 pilots are set to lose their jobs.

"We need to ensure that our remaining operation is efficient, flexible and cost-competitive to enable us to survive in an increasingly lean and unpredictable industry," says the letter from senior management.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52489013?

----------


## Troy

> I would sincerely hope so.


So do I. They need to have inspections,  engines started and be pressurised at reasonable intervals if left outside. 

I remember the fuel crisis in the 70's when aircraft were left for long periods. Bird nests in the undercarriage, rain water leaking into control panels, insects making homes in pitot tubes...all sorts of fun.

----------


## helge

> I remember the fuel crisis in the 70's when aircraft were left for long periods. Bird nests in the undercarriage, rain water leaking into control panels, insects making homes in pitot tubes..


Stowaways getting fucking bored

----------


## baldrick

carnage incoming




> "The value of certain things have decreased," Warren Buffett says. "Our airlines position was a mistake. Berkshire is worth less today because I took that position... There are other decisions like that."


https://twitter.com/YahooFinance/sta...50765466619905

----------


## harrybarracuda

> carnage incoming
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/YahooFinance/sta...50765466619905



I bet he wasn't saying that when they were spending $50Bn buying back shares over the last few years.

----------


## Troy

> British Airways has told staff that its Gatwick airport operation may not reopen after the coronavirus pandemic passes.
> 
> The admission came in a memo, written by the head of BA's Gatwick hub and seen by BBC News.
> 
> BA's Gatwick operation, which is currently suspended, is roughly a fifth as big as its Heathrow hub.
> 
> In a separate letter to pilots, BA said it cannot rule out suspending the rest of its Heathrow operation.
> 
> In the memo to Gatwick's staff, the company says: "As you know, we suspended our Gatwick flying schedule at the start of April and there is no certainty as to when or if these services can or will return."
> ...


Haven't BA been trying to close its Gatwick operations for some time now. I mean, over ten years ago they were talking about it and moved a lot back to Heathrow. I think they had problems with unions about a complete pull out from Gatwick and now they just have an excuse to do what they wanted all along.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Haven't BA been trying to close its Gatwick operations for some time now. I mean, over ten years ago they were talking about it and moved a lot back to Heathrow. I think they had problems with unions about a complete pull out from Gatwick and now they just have an excuse to do what they wanted all along.


I think the issue was availability of slots as Heathrow. Since that isn't a problem for the foreseeable future, they are probably waiting to see what happens.

They're also probably big supporters of the third runway.

----------


## HuangLao

Those that might be hoping for the best, should be prepared for the shock.

Airlines and airline travel will be reshaped in the coming years - probably to an extreme or another - in the post-pandemic period 
....and not in a good customer friendly manner.

----------


## baldrick

^ what will that do to your cargo cult job ?

----------


## Troy

^^ Where there is a will, there is a way. People have got used to air travel and it will bounce back. Not sure how long it'll take though. All depends on the next couple of months.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^^ Where there is a will, there is a way. People have got used to air travel and it will bounce back. Not sure how long it'll take though. All depends on the next couple of months.


I suspect it's going to be expensive and very inconvenient for quite a while after it resumes.

----------


## harrybarracuda

An interesting article about IAG (owners of BA).

One point of note is that it has had to take a 1.3Bn euro charge for fuel hedging. It must suck having to take a dump of that size, but their traffic is only 6% of what it was and they've committed to the purchases.

And of course, the benefits of hedging in the current situation are offset by the fact the no-one is flying.

Coronavirus: Why BA announcement will send a chill through government | Business News | Sky News

----------


## Klondyke

What lockdown?

----------


## misskit

Planes allowed 12-hour window for take-off and landings at airports

Aircraft will be allowed to take off and land at airports between 7am and 7pm as part of efforts to contain the spread of Covid-19, Chula Sukmanop, director-general of the Civil Aviation Authority of Thailand, said on Sunday (May 3). 

Airports that have reopened for domestic flights are: Phitsanulok, Phrae, Mae Sot in Mae Hong Son province, and Lampang province.


Airports for both domestic and international flights are: Khon Kaen, Nakhon Phanom, Buri Ram, Roi Et, Loei, Sakon Nakhon, Udon Thani, Ubon Ratchathani, Chumphon, Trang, Nakhon Si Thammarat, and Ranong.

The government has eased some lockdown restrictions but has urged people to avoid inter-provincial travell unless there are urgent reasons. 

The government also extended the ban on incoming International flights until the end of May, except for some special flights allowed by the authorities. 

Special flights that are allowed include state or military aircraft, emergency landing, technical landing, humanitarian aid, medical and relief flights, repatriation of Thai nationals and cargo aircraft. 

Thailand also maintains a state of emergency, and night curfew from 10pm to 4am.

Planes allowed 12-hour window for take-off and landings at airports

----------


## harrybarracuda

*Virgin Atlantic has announced it is to cut more than 3,000 jobs in the UK and end its operation at Gatwick airport.
*
The shock announcement comes after rival British Airways said it could not rule out closing its Gatwick operation. Pilots' union Balpa described it as "devastating".

Many airlines have been struggling as the coronavirus pandemic has brought global travel to a virtual standstill.
The airline currently employs a total of about 10,000 people.

Virgin Atlantic, which is in the process of applying for emergency loans from the government, said that jobs will be lost across the board.

"We have weathered many storms since our first flight 36 years ago but none has been as devastating as Covid-19 and the associated loss of life and livelihood for so many," said Virgin Atlantic chief executive Shai Weiss.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52542038

----------


## panama hat

> What lockdown?


Indeed

----------


## naptownmike

Is it to early (risky) to buy air tickets to Thailand for this January?  Korean Air:  Washington D.C.-Seoul-CNX

With the inevitable price hikes it would be nice to lock in at the usual price.

----------


## panama hat

> January


January???  Sweet black baby Jesus . . . if this C-19 crap isn't well and truly over by then the world is screwed completely.  I'm going back to KL as soon as business and flights are open and I feel it's safe . . . probably July, after ramadan/hari raya/balik kampung etc...

----------


## Troy

Mid June for the brave and mid July for the more cautious is my guess. There are a lot of vouchers to get rid of by December. Too expensive and they will lose too many sales. All depends on the route. Some are going to be extortionate...

----------


## mudcat

We made reservations on ANA for SFO-Haneda-Bangkok July 1 returning September 1.  Reservation was made through UAL to take advantage to use the value of a self-cancelled U.S. domestic flight to a free-change international flight.  
Need to get home to pack up our home and move here permanently as there are too many memories attached to things.  
Hope to return a year later (September 2021) to visit with friends and family without masks.  That trip would be westbound to the East Coast of the U.S. and then, as it is being paid for by miles, UAL permits a free hop across the U.S. to SFO or Portland and then back to Bangkok - cost in miles would be the same as a simple east-bound round-trip.

Not sure if the July 1st date is really feasible, but if not we can push it out a bit more as the carrying cost of our U.S. life is quite modest.

steve

----------


## ScubaJohn

I think its quite safe to book from July onwards.  Were either going to be on the way back to normalcy or were really in the shitter and it wont matter.  Most airlines are allowing some flexibility on full refunds on bookings through the end of the year but check first. Im on ANA to the states in August and its refundable with just a few conditions.

----------


## Shutree

This might be a way forward, a 'travel bubble' between Australua and New Zealand.

Coronavirus: 'Travel bubble' plan to help kick-start flights - BBC News

----------


## panama hat

The PM is going on about it constantly, placing the onus on Australia just in case it doesn't work so it won't rub off on herself.  The warriors, an NZ rugby team flew over to be based in Tamworth, north of Sydney, for the start of the NRL season.

A lot to be said about opening up this bubble to Oz . . but people will still be reluctant to travel and the expected Oz dollar bonus to NZ won't be forthcoming

----------


## harrybarracuda

So Qatar Airways are firing pilots and them asking them to pay back their training costs.

Nice.

Qatar Airways Firing Pilots - And Sending Them A Bill - View from the Wing

----------


## hallelujah

Avianca has filed for bankruptcy.

Latin America'&#39;'s Second-Biggest Airline, Avianca, Driven to Bankruptcy by Coronavirus - The New York Times

----------


## OhOh

> Qatar Airways are firing pilots and them asking them to pay back their training costs


 ::chitown:: 

_"Actually there’s more to the story when you check and translate what’s been going on on her Twitter account before.
First: the pilot in question is a qatar national and is requesting to rather lay off foreign staff.
Second: in 7 years she’s has not managed to reach her type qualification.
So she might be a licensed pilot, but she can’t fly!
Sometimes there’s more to the story than the great headlines of someone  being fired in bad terms. Check before posting and contributing to  unjustified qatar bashing (in this case)."

"“Been told by a colleague in the Middle East that the “true” reason they  asked to recoup money was that she got married not long after finishing  training and her husband refused to allow her to fly and the airline  had no choice but to terminate. Allegedly not covid related. I can’t say  for sure this version is correct but it came from someone out there.”

"This is all over the internet right now with no backstory. Another  Qatari pilot commented that this pilot was a cadet who had a scholarship  for training from zero hours to Qatari pilot. Four years ago she was  supposed to start her jet training, then got pregnant twice in  succession while drawing a large salary and not flying while on LOA.  Upon returning from maternity leave and doing her IOE, her husband  decided he did not want her flying. She was also said to have had issues  with mgmt, “attitude problems”, and was calling sick. So her employment  was terminated by *mutual agreement*. After she was let go, she started  waging a social media war against Qatar."

_Comments from
Qatar Airways Firing Pilots - And Sending Them A Bill - View from the Wing

QA disinformation or concerned whistle blowers safely out of Qatar?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> _"Actually there’s more to the story when you check and translate what’s been going on on her Twitter account before.
> First: the pilot in question is a qatar national and is requesting to rather lay off foreign staff.
> Second: in 7 years she’s has not managed to reach her type qualification.
> So she might be a licensed pilot, but she can’t fly!
> Sometimes there’s more to the story than the great headlines of someone  being fired in bad terms. Check before posting and contributing to  unjustified qatar bashing (in this case)."
> 
> "“Been told by a colleague in the Middle East that the “true” reason they  asked to recoup money was that she got married not long after finishing  training and her husband refused to allow her to fly and the airline  had no choice but to terminate. Allegedly not covid related. I can’t say  for sure this version is correct but it came from someone out there.”
> 
> "This is all over the internet right now with no backstory. Another  Qatari pilot commented that this pilot was a cadet who had a scholarship  for training from zero hours to Qatari pilot. Four years ago she was  supposed to start her jet training, then got pregnant twice in  succession while drawing a large salary and not flying while on LOA.  Upon returning from maternity leave and doing her IOE, her husband  decided he did not want her flying. She was also said to have had issues  with mgmt, “attitude problems”, and was calling sick. So her employment  was terminated by *mutual agreement*. After she was let go, she started  waging a social media war against Qatar."
> ...


I would expect the company to launch a social media campaign to discredit her to be honest.

Their reputation (which was already one of using their staff as slave labour) has been further tarnished.

----------


## misskit

*Aviation authority announces new timings for airports*

The Civil Aviation Authority of Thailand (CAAT) has finalised new opening and closing times for airports all over the country.


Following the pandemic crisis, the CAAT has rearranged schedules for each airport in Thailand.

7am to 7pm (18 airports): Nan Nakhon, Phitsanulok l, Phrae, Mae Sot, Mae Hong Son, Lampang, Khon Kaen, Nakhon Phanom, Buri Ram, Roi Et, Loei, Sakon Nakhon, Udon Thani, Ubon Ratchathani, Chumphon, Trang, Nakhon Si Thammarat and Ranong


5am to midnight: Surat Thani Airport 6am to 6pm: Hua Hin Airport 6am to 10pm: Samui Airport 6am to midnight: Chiang Mai Airport and Hat Yai Airport.


Open 24 hours: Krabi, U-Tapao, Chiang Rai, Don Mueang and Suvarnabhumi Airport. 

International flights are still not allowed until June 1 and CAAT provides further details on [www.caat.ot.th/corona] website.

Aviation authority announces new timings for airports

----------


## harrybarracuda

Boeing reports more 737 MAX cancellations as CEO offers grim outlook
PUBLISHED : 13 MAY 2020 AT 07:45

NEW YORK: Boeing reported another round of 737 MAX cancelations Tuesday as the company's CEO warned the industry downturn in the wake of the coronavirus pandemic could force a major airline out of business.

Data on the aviation giant's website showed 108 orders for the 737 MAX were canceled in April, and Boeing also downgraded contracts for another 101 of the planes, an accounting move that lowered its backlog to below 5,000 planes for the first time since 2013 and indicated weakening demand for its aircraft.

The MAX has been grounded since March 2019 following two deadly crashes, but demand for the plane, like other commercial aircraft, has also been hammered by the massive slump in airline traffic caused by the coronavirus pandemic.

Major carriers have taken thousands of planes out of service as overall US air travel has shrunk to less than one-tenth of its volume before the outbreak.

Boeing Chief Executive David Calhoun said in an interview on NBC that he expects airlines to trim headcount, and it was "most likely" a major US carrier would go out of business.

"Traffic levels will not be back to 100 percent, they won't even be back to 25. Maybe by the end of the year, we approach 50," Calhoun said.

Calhoun was asked whether he foresaw additional Boeing job cuts after the company announced last month it was trimming its headcount by 10 percent and lowering its production rate on leading aircraft.

"We really do believe there's stability in there," Calhoun said of the company's "medium-term" production outlook over roughly three years. The interview was taped Monday.

After shutting down plane production in late March, Boeing has resumed manufacturing most commercial aircraft while employing social distancing and other safety measures to prevent COVID-19 outbreaks.

Calhoun expressed confidence in a long-term recovery, but said it would take three-to-five years for the industry to reach the levels of 2019.

"Apocalyptic does actually accurately describe the moment," Calhoun said. "I don't think it describes the recovery, and I don't think it describes medium- or long-term for the airline industry or aviation in general."

Shares of Boeing fell 1.4 percent to $127.08 in afternoon trading.

Boeing reports more 737 MAX cancelations as CEO offers grim outlook

----------


## misskit

*Phuket airport to remain closed in a U-turn by the CAAT

*The decision comes just one day after the CAAT agreed to reopen the airport for limited domestic operations this Sunday.


Today’s CAAT announcement said that, although the spread of coronavirus appears to be under control, there remains a substantial risk that the contagion will reemerge, hence the need to monitor the situation closely in the southern resort province.


Phuket is still regarded as high-risk province for COVID-19 infection, with cumulative cases second only to Bangkok.

Phuket airport to remain closed in a U-turn by the CAAT – Thai PBS World

----------


## misskit

Thailand’s in-bound flight ban extended until end of June

The Civil Aviation Authority of Thailand (CAAT) has extended the ban on all flights into Thailand, except diplomatic, technical, medical and emergency landings, until June 30th, or until there is a significant change in the global COVID-19 pandemic situation.


The ban was originally to end of May 31st.


CAAT director, Mr. Chula Sookmanop, said that passengers and air crew on those exempted flights will be subject to 14-days in state quarantine if they want to enter Thailand.


Meanwhile, Health Department director-general Dr. Panpi Wipulakorn said today that a recently conducted survey shows that Thai people have become less diligent about observing safety measures, with 72.5% strictly complying, compared to 77.6% in the previous survey.


In preparation for the further easing of lockdown restrictions tomorrow (Sunday), she said health officials have told the managements of businesses and leisure facilities to cleanse all the contact points, such as escalator handrails, service counters, floors, walls and restrooms, hourly.


Cleaning staff will be subject to temperature screenings every day and special attention must be given to the disposal of an expected increase in garbage.

Thailand’s in-bound flight ban extended until end of June – Thai PBS World

----------


## bowie

Well, the airlines are for profit businesses. There is no magic as to what they must do to survive. It costs X amount to fly a plane from Point A to Point B. They need X number of passengers at Y ($$/passenger) to make a profit. 

They will cut back on the number of flights offered to keep the flights full or close to full. The price Y $$ will be determined by the purchasers in that, if it is too expensive, the airlines will not be able to attract enough X’s (passengers) to make a profit.

They will shift/convert excess passenger aircraft to cargo carriers. The airlines are flexible – if they cannot adapt, and some will fit that not adaptable bill, they will die. There will be the proverbial thinning of the herd. 

But, that being said – it will be demand that will drive the pricing. The available number of passenger flights will decrease to fit the demand. 

I really can’t see flying becoming too expensive. If it in fact becomes cost prohibitive – the industry would die.


This really goes for any business affected by Covid – you adapt and/or modify to meet your customer demand, or you die.

----------


## HuangLao

For profit businesses/corporations that are equally subsidized/underwritten by the respective governments. 

There's an economic/political terminology used to describe this practice.

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## harrybarracuda

> For profit businesses/corporations that are equally subsidized/underwritten by the respective governments. 
> 
> There's an economic/political terminology used to describe this practice.


Let me have a crack Jeff. Is it "Government Subsidy"?

----------


## misskit

*Cabinet endorses court-sanctioned rehabilitation scheme for ailing THAI*

Thailand’s cabinet has decided to let financially-strapped Thai Airways International enter a court-sanctioned rehabilitation scheme, under the Thai bankruptcy laws.


Speaking at a news conference today (Tuesday), Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha admitted that it was a difficult decision for him to choose between injecting new funding into the ailing airline, letting the airline file for bankruptcy or entering a rehabilitation programme under the country’s bankruptcy laws.


The cabinet, he said, chose the court-sanctioned rehabilitation scheme, believing that the option is the best for THAI, so that the national flag carrier will be able to resume operations after going through a rehabilitation process to address internal problems in the organization.


“I would like everyone to go back and think about why we had THAI from the outset and whether THAI should continue to be a competitive organization that will bring fame and revenue to the Thai people,” said the Prime Minister, adding “It is about time we have the courage to undertake a court-sanctioned rehabilitation scheme.”


The Prime Minister said that he chose rehabilitation because he could not let the beleaguered national flag carrier to go under, which could have led to the mass layoff of over 20,000 staff.


“(I believe) we don’t want to see this happen and the Government is fully supportive of this scheme, so the airline can resume operations, albeit without Government financial support,” said the Prime Minister, as he explained that, under the rehabilitation scheme, the court will appoint professionals to manage the rehabilitation plan after the airline has undergone a major structural overhaul.


All stakeholders will be notified of the cabinet’s decision today, said the Prime Minister, adding that he hopes THAI will be able to stage a comeback.


“THAI was regarded as the cultural ambassador that helped to promote Thailand throughout the last 60 years, from one generation to another, be they cabin crew, mechanics, ground staff or others.  I, and all Thais, hope that this rehabilitation programme will restore THAI to its former glory.  This is my decision and that of the cabinet today,” said the Prime Minister.


Cabinet endorses court-sanctioned rehabilitation scheme for ailing THAI – Thai PBS World

----------


## harrybarracuda

Start by axing the freeloaders.

And axing the freebies.

You'd be amazed how much money you'll save.

----------


## harrybarracuda

The union did a quick about face on this. I'm guessing they were told either play the game or the airline would fold.




> The Finance Ministry will sell 3.17% of its stake in the financially-troubled Thai Airways International (THAI) to the state-run Vayupak 1 Fund, with the aim of stripping the airline of its state enterprise status.
> 
> Transport Minister Saksayam Chidchob held a teleconference to inform THAI executives of the decision on Wednesday.
> 
> He has given THAI a free hand in selecting up to 30 professionals to be appointed as rehabilitation planners.
> 
> After that list is forwarded to Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha for his consideration on Monday, it will be submitted to the Central Bankruptcy Court.
> 
> The share sale will strip the airline of its state enterprise status, which entails legal restrictions, particularly under the the 2000 State Enterprise Labour Relations Act.
> ...


Ministry to cut THAI stake

----------


## klong toey

Maybe Thai will start a GoFundMe rescue package what could possibly go wrong with that funding method.
Guess we will be looking for a new airline to fly back to Blighty if and when things reach some kind of normality better use our airmiles up before they get repossessed .

----------


## aging one

6,000 people laid off today, they will be paid 10 months compensation in line with the law.

[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.84)]Source: [/COLOR]https://www.nationthailand.com/business/30388241

----------


## harrybarracuda

> 6,000 people laid off today, they will be paid 10 months compensation in line with the law.
> 
> [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.84)]Source: [/COLOR]https://www.nationthailand.com/business/30388241






> "The rehabilitation of the airline has to be approved by the creditors and it is likely to take at least one year, sources said."


What about the shareholders?

----------


## misskit

*Nearly 6,000 THAI staff to be laid off*

Thai Airways (THAI) will have to dismiss more than 6,000 employees after entering a bankruptcy procedure and a debt moratorium of Bt200 billion, the government said on Thursday.


The Cabinet decided to push THAI into a bankruptcy procedure under the Bankruptcy Act BE2483 (AD1940) and ordered the Ministry of Finance to sell its majority stake in the airline.

THAI will stop repaying all debt and start from scratch, the government said. According to the size of its debt, 30 per cent of its over 20,000 employees, or over 6,000 people, will have to be dismissed. They will receive a 10-month compensation as per the labour law.


The rehabilitation of the airline has to be approved by the creditors and it is likely to take at least one year, sources said.

Nearly 6,000 THAI staff to be laid off

----------


## Mendip

*Pakistan International Airlines passenger plane crashes in Karachi*

A Pakistan International Airlines plane has crashed in Karachi on a flight from Lahore, aviation officials say. 

The  plane, which was reported to be carrying 90 passengers, was flying from  Lahore to Jinnah International Airport, one of Pakistan's busiest  airports.

Pictures shared on social media show smoke rising from the crash site, a residential area. 

Emergency services have arrived at the scene.

Pakistan International Airlines passenger plane crashes in Karachi - BBC News

----------


## Troy

PIA aka Perhaps I'll Arrive

Not the first flight after 2 months sitting on ground, had flown several legs earlier. Landing gear problem to start with, apparently, followed by loss of engines on GA. Early days for this one...

----------


## harrybarracuda

I opened a thread in T& A News. Mods can merge or leave, up to them.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Debt-ridden Thai Airways International (THAI) has lost its state enterprise status after the Vayupak 1 Fund bought a 3.17% stake from the Finance Ministry on Friday, a source at the fund said.

The stake purchase was undertaken at a price of four baht per share, said the source. The purchase cut the Finance Ministry's holding in the national carrier to 48%, immediately stripping the carrier of its state enterprise status.

The Vayupak 1 Fund has the status of a juristic person, not a state enterprise, even though it was established by a 2003 cabinet resolution, said the source.

THAI shares closed at 4.90 baht on Friday, down 0.35 baht or 6.67%, in trade worth 285.2 million baht.

A source at the Finance Ministry said the airline will now submit its application to the Central Bankruptcy Court for rehabilitation under the bankruptcy law, with THAI proposing itself as the rehab planner.

"That process needs to be done as soon as possible, otherwise creditors may submit themselves to the court as planners," said the source.
In addition, if the government wants to have its representatives serve as plan administrators, they must first sit on the THAI board. By law, only members of the board can be nominated as plan administrators by the debtor. Creditors, however, can oppose the debtor's proposal.

THAI has outstanding debts worth 200 billion baht, 30% of which is domestically owned.

Meanwhile, the Finance and Transport ministries will jointly set up a "superboard," a new panel to monitor the rehabilitation plan for the carrier.
The board will be chaired by Deputy Prime Minister Wissanu Krea-ngam, who oversees the government's legal affairs.

The superboard itself will not implement the plan but only "scrutinise" the work and report its progress to Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha, Transport Minister Saksayam Chidchob said yesterday after talks with Mr Wissanu and Finance Minister Uttama Savanayana.

It was earlier reported that the two ministries were locking horns over the composition of the new board set to supervise the airline after the Finance Ministry's stake sell-off.

The Transport Ministry, for example, wanted to pack the board with its own people.

Mr Saksayam said the superboard will submit a list of candidates to serve as potential rehab planners for court approval.

The Transport Ministry already has four representatives in mind to form the superboard, he said.

They are deputy Transport Minister Thaworn Senneam, who supervises THAI; Chaiwat Tongkamkoon, permanent secretary for transport; Chayathan Promsorn, chief of the Office of Transport and Traffic Policy and Planning; and Pirapan Salirathavibhaga, a former justice minister.
Other members will be nominated by the Finance Ministry after the cabinet officially allows it to play a role on the superboard.

But Mr Uttama said what he is really concerned with at the moment is the ongoing trade of THAI shares on the stock market, whose price has skyrocketed "unusually".

"I've asked the Stock Exchange of Thailand to look into the issue to find out whether it's normal," Mr Uttama said.

Thai Airways loses state enterprise status after stake sell-off

----------


## Troy

Thai Smile will be starting operations again from 1 June, at least from Udon -> Bangkok International, if anyone is interested.

The alternative is VietJet or going to Don Mueang.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Five years? Everyone will have forgotten about it by then. Which is probably the idea.




> The Central Bankruptcy Court has accepted the Thai Airways International (THAI) case and set the first hearing for August - with the restructuring process expected to take five years.
> 
> The court said on Wednesday the first hearing would start at 9am on Aug 17.
> 
> It ordered its acceptance of the case be announced in at least one daily newspaper at least twice, no more than seven days apart. The court's decision will also be announced online.
> 
> It ordered copies of THAI's bankruptcy process request be sent to its creditors and other parties.
> 
> The court also stated that creditors of THAI could oppose the restructuring process for up to three days prior to the first hearing. After that, the court would consider that creditors agree with the process.
> ...


Bankruptcy court accepts THAI case

----------


## harrybarracuda

Gosh, there's a big fucking surprise....




> *Ryanair worst airline for flight cancellation refunds, finds Which?
> *


Ryanair worst airline for flight cancellation refunds, finds Which? | Business | The Guardian

----------


## Troy

> Thai Smile will be starting operations again from 1 June, at least from Udon -> Bangkok International, if anyone is interested.
> 
> The alternative is VietJet or going to Don Mueang.


They have cancelled the evening flight from Udon but kept the morning one for June. I guess there weren't enough takers to make it worthwhile. Screws me up a tad, difficult to get to airport for morning flight and a 12 hour wait for international flight.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Dubai: Following the UAE Federal Governments announcement to lift restrictions on transit passengers services, Emirates will offer passenger services to 16 more cities on its Boeing 777-300ER aircraft from June 15. With travel restrictions remaining in place in most countries, customers are reminded to check entry and exit requirements before their journeys.

Flights to the following cities will be available for booking on emirates.com or via travel agents: Bahrain, Manchester, Zurich, Vienna, Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Dublin, New York JFK, Seoul, Kuala Lumpur, Singapore, Jakarta, Taipei, Hong Kong, Perth and Brisbane.

In addition, from June 8, Emirates will offer flights from Karachi, Lahore and Islamabad for travellers from Pakistan who wish to connect onwards to other Emirates destinations.

With this latest announcement, Emirates will be offering flights for passengers on the back of its scheduled cargo operations from Dubai to 29 cities, including existing flights to London Heathrow, Frankfurt, Paris, Milan, Madrid, Chicago, Toronto, Sydney, Melbourne and Manila (from 11th June).

Customers can book to fly between destinations in the Asia Pacific and Europe or the Americas, with a convenient connection in Dubai, as long as they meet travel and immigration entry requirements of their destination country.

Working closely with the UAE authorities, Emirates continues to take a measured and phased approach to flight resumption and rebuilding connections between Dubai and the world.

*Health and safety first*

Emirates has implemented a comprehensive set of measures at every step of the customer journey to ensure the safety of its customers and employees on the ground and in the air, including the distribution of complimentary hygiene kits containing masks, gloves, hand sanitiser and antibacterial wipes to all customers.

*Travel restrictions*

Customers are reminded that travel restrictions remain in place, and travellers will only be accepted on flights if they comply with the eligibility and entry criteria requirements of their destination countries. Residents returning to the UAE can check the latest requirements at: Flying you home | Help | Emirates United Arab Emirates

----------


## Switch

^useful info thanks. Emirates is one of a handful of airlines offering free changes to your itinerary during C19 measures.

----------


## tomcat

_...add to list of airlines to avoid:_

*Airline in Pakistan Crash Saw 52 Safety Incidents in Half Century*

By Faseeh Mangi and Anurag Kotoky
June 5, 2020, 5:00 AM GMT+7
https://www.bloomberg.com/asia


Pakistan Airbus crash in Karachi killed 97 people last month PIA accumulated $3 billion of losses as of last year

A security personnel stands beside the wreckage of the plane crash in Karachi on May 24. Photographer: Asif Hassan/AFP via Getty Images

A deadly Pakistan International Airlines Corp. crash that killed 97 people in May has put a plan to revive the company, which has more accumulated losses than any other publicly-traded carrier in Asia, in jeopardy.

The state-run airline, known as PIA, had just posted its first gross profit in eight years, was starting to fly again after a two-month nationwide lockdown, was on the verge of reviving a direct route to the U.S., and had proposed revival plans to the government. But the Airbus SE A320 jet crash into a residential neighborhood in Karachi has reignited questions about its viability.

“It’s possible that PIA becomes the last choice for travelers,” said Khurram Schehzad, chief executive officer at Karachi-based advisory Alpha Beta Core Solutions. “The public sector airline has a bad reputation with timing and service in the past, and this would impact the airlines business even more. Many people would be inclined to fly competition, for now.”

The malaise at the airline stems from frequent labor strife, changes in leadership -- the airline has had six chief executive officers in five years -- and red tape. That in turn has added to the woes of the carrier, which last reported a net income a decade and a half ago, and has suffered 52 safety-related incidents in the 54 years of its existence, according to data from Aviation Safety Network.

PIA spokesman Abdullah Hafeez Khan didn’t respond to a request for a comment.

PIA, and Pakistan’s aviation sector in general, is managed by either generalist bureaucrats, or military officers, or a combination of the two, according to Mosharraf Zaidi, a senior fellow at Islamabad-based think tank, Tabadlab. That leads to a highly bureaucratic and unaccountable system in which plane crashes are only the most extreme manifestation, Zaidi said.

PIA had accumulated $3 billion of losses as of last year, hurting its ability to take on rivals. Apart from middle-eastern heavyweights such as Emirates Airline and Etihad Airways PJSC, the ailing carrier also faces new local competition in Airblue Ltd., emerging carrier SereneAir and upcoming AirSial Ltd., and is losing market share in the process.

“A disproportionate number of plane crashes is part of a wider malaise,” said Zaidi. “Without a wider commitment to excellence, to professionalism and to an economic transformation, no one should expect any major changes or improvements.”
*Military Links*

PIA’s current Chief Executive Officer, Arshad Mahmood Malik, is a Vice Chief of Air Staff at the nation’s air force. That’s partly prompted by a tumultuous history -- long-pending plans to sell the airline have seen violent street protests by labor unions fearing layoffs, and political parties in opposition.

The misery of former Deutsche Lufthansa AG executive Bernd Hildenbrand is a case in point. After Hildenbrand joined as the airline’s first foreign CEO, his salary was immediately leaked to the press. Months later, he was stopped from leaving the country, citing an investigation into a plane-lease contract. Another CEO was locked into the bathroom by union members, according to the Dawn newspaper.

Even Malik, the current CEO, was suspended for a few months this year by a court following a petition by a labor union leader. He was allowed to resume work only after the state lawyer said Prime Minister Imran Khan believes Malik was indeed the right man to manage the carrier “on ventilator.” The attorney general also assured the court that he will not be called back to the military anytime soon, according to Dawn.
*
Lost Glory*

The latest crash -- the worst for PIA since 1992 in terms of fatalities -- comes as demand has been destroyed with countries imposing travel restrictions to check the spread of the coronavirus. The industry is staring at a $314 billion loss in ticket sales this year, with 70% of global capacity idled, according to the International Air Transport Association.

PIA, which owns the iconic Roosevelt Hotel in Manhattan, is the most likely airline in the world to go bankrupt, according to a Bloomberg News analysis. Airline officials in March presented multiple bailout options to the government, as losses and debt have become too much for the company to handle alone. The airline offered to transfer some debt to the government, conduct a debt-to-equity swap or to issue a long-term bond.

PIA, which along with neighboring counterpart Air India Ltd. once stood for the emergence of two infant South Asian nations on the world stage following independence from the British in 1947, now has current liabilities of $2 billion -- more than six times the value of its assets. The airline can’t survive without more taxpayer-funded bailouts.

While Pakistan Air Force legend Nur Khan shepherded the airline through its heyday in the 1960s, the current regime led by a military veteran doesn’t seem to have made any difference to the company’s performance, according to Burzine Waghmar, a member of the Centre for the Study of Pakistan at SOAS University of London.
“That their presence has not exactly led to turning such public-sector companies around profitably is acutely evident and puts paid the common assumption that the military is more efficient at managing Pakistani institutions than civilians.”

----------


## harrybarracuda

> While Pakistan Air Force legend Nur Khan shepherded the airline through its heyday in the 1960s, the current regime led by a military veteran doesn’t seem to have made any difference to the company’s performance, according to Burzine Waghmar, a member of the Centre for the Study of Pakistan at SOAS University of London.
> “That their presence has not exactly led to turning such public-sector companies around profitably is acutely evident and puts paid the common assumption that the military is more efficient at managing Pakistani institutions than civilians.”


I don't get the "much difference" bit. No doubt the military are in it both to see what cash they can extract as well as for innumerable freebies for their upper echelons.

In fact I think there were some rodneys on the flight.

----------


## Troy

As I posted previously PIA => Perhaps I'll Arrive... Heard that back in the late '80's, would never consider flying with them.

There are those that choose to fly for the price, those that choose for the food and entertainment...and those that don't give a shit as long as arrival is the most important factor.

----------


## harrybarracuda

The PIA crash has gone strangely silent, although I did read they'd managed to get the data off both the CVR and the FDR.

I assume that the official report won't say 100% that the pilots fucked it up, even though it's fairly obvious that they did.

You might even end up with another case of the experts saying what happened and the egotistical Pakistani government/airforce coming up with their own version. It's happened before in other third world countries.

----------


## helge

> There are those that choose to fly for the price,


Mid-late 80's they were cheap, and we didn't mind long stopovers.

Exellent food in Karachi.

( and expresso excremento) :Smile:

----------


## misskit

*Seven more airports opened for domestic flights*

The Civil Aviation Authority of Thailand (CAAT) has added seven airports to the list of airports that are allowed to reopen for domestic flights, effective from Saturday (June 6).


CAAT director-general Chula Sukmanop announced on Friday (June 5) that the seven airports include Tak, Trad, Nakhon Ratchasima, Narathiwat, Pai, Phetchabun and Sukhothai. “The CAAT decided to open these airports in compliance with the government’s easing of lockdown measures to tackle Covid-19,” he said. “The opening hours of these airports will be restricted to between 6am and 8pm.”

According to CAAT list, airports that are open for domestic flights are: Khon Kaen, Chumphon, Tak, Trad, Trang, Nakhon Phanom, Nakhon Ratchasima, Nakhon Si Thammarat, Nan Nakhon, Narathiwat, Buri Ram, Pai, Phitsanulok, Phetchabun, Phrae, Mae Sot, Mae Hong Son, Ranong, Roi Et, Loei, Lampang, Sakon Nakhon, Sukhothai, Udon Thani and Ubon Ratchathani.

The following airports are open for domestic and international flights: Krabi, Chiang Mai, Don Mueang, Mae Fah Luang Chiang Rai, Samui, Suvarnabhumi, Surat Thani, Hat Yai, Hua Hin and U-Tapao.
Seven more airports opened for domestic flights

----------


## raycarey

> “The opening hours of these airports will be restricted to between 6am and 8pm.”


1.  before COVID-19, how many flights per day fell outside these hours at those airports?
2.  what difference would it make to the spread if flights were to arrive or depart after 8 pm?

----------


## OhOh

*Eased rules for inbound flights set to facilitate travel*

                                 By WANG KEJU in Beijing and DONG LESHUO in Washington |                      China Daily |             Updated: 2020-06-05 10:45

_"__With the COVID-19 epidemic gradually easing in China, the country's  top aviation regulator announced on Thursday an increase in  international flights, a move that experts said will facilitate  passenger flows and help Chinese stranded abroad to come home.
__
While international flight restrictions imposed on March 29 remain in  effect, overseas airlines that currently cannot operate flights to  China will be permitted once-per-week flights into one of 37 cities of  their choosing starting on Monday, according to a statement issued by  the Civil Aviation Administration of China._
_
The policy adjustment is expected to add 50 international flights in  and out of China every week, and the average number of daily inbound  passengers would rise from the existing 3,000 to about 4,700, according  to the administration.
_
_To reduce risks of imported novel coronavirus infections, the  administration ordered in late March that carriers could fly no more  than the number of international flights they were operating between  March 16 and 22, and said domestic carriers could fly just one flight a  week on one route to any country, while foreign airlines could operate  just one flight a week to China._
_
However, the 11 domestic airlines and 95 overseas airlines that had  suspended international passenger flights to and from China before  mid-March have not been able to operate any flights over the past few  months.
_
_During the period, 19 domestic airlines and 28 overseas airlines have  been allowed to operate 134 flights to and from China every week, but  only about 75 percent of the planned flights actually took place, the  administration said.
_
_The administration's statement said that the loosening of  restrictions is to "restore in an orderly way some international  flights, and address the urgent need of Chinese students and overseas  Chinese to get back to China"._
_
US airline ban opposed_
_
The policy adjustment also came after the US Department of  Transportation's announcement on Wednesday that the scheduled passenger  operations of all Chinese air carriers to and from the United States  would be suspended starting June 16, or possibly sooner, at the  president's discretion.
_
_In response to the move, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Zhao  Lijian said at a news briefing on Thursday afternoon that China regrets  the decision made by the US, and the Civil Aviation Administration of  China has lodged stern representations with US transportation officials  over this issue.
_
_"The administration has been staying in close communication with the  US Department of Transportation on flight arrangements between the two  countries with some progress achieved," he said. "China has also  adjusted relevant policies, and we hope the US side will not create  barriers to solving the problem."_
_
The US blamed Chinese aviation authorities for having failed to  permit US air carriers to fully exercise their bilateral rights with  respect to the provision of scheduled passenger services between the two  countries.
_
_Yet, in late January, the White House had barred most foreign  citizens from entering the US from China. Three US carriers operating  scheduled US-China passenger flights－American Airlines, Delta Air Lines  and United Airlines－began suspending their flights in early February.
_
_As US passenger airlines had stopped all flights linked to China  before the restrictions imposed by the Civil Aviation Administration of  China in late March, they were unable to resume flights to China._
_
China's aviation administration submitted a letter to the US  Department of Transportation on May 25, reiterating that its provisions  "equally apply to all domestic and foreign carriers, being fair, equal  and transparent" and said it does not "wish to be obliged to respond by  taking countermeasures on US carriers".
_
_The suspension comes at a difficult time for travelers, who already  face a shortage of tickets and high prices for flights between the two  countries. In recent days, protests, some of which have turned violent,  have swept across the US over the death of George Floyd at the hands of  police in Minneapolis. As a result, many overseas Chinese are concerned  about their safety and are weighing their options on returning to China.
_
_Currently, there are four weekly scheduled flights between the US and  China, all flown by four Chinese airlines: Air China, China Eastern  Airlines, China Southern Airlines and Xiamen Airlines.
_
_The news has drawn the attention of many in the overseas Chinese  community, especially among Chinese students studying in the US._
_
Cecilia, a student at the University of California, San Diego, who  didn't give her surname, said the news didn't come as a surprise because  the pandemic has caused so many changes._
_
"I think this policy is still likely to change, because it is  certainly not a long-term plan," she said. "It all depends on how China  and the US negotiate after that. So let's wait and see."
__
Mechanism to guard safety_
_
The Civil Aviation Administration of China, along with multiple  departments including the National Health Commission and the Ministry of  Foreign Affairs, will introduce a "reward" and "circuit breaker"  mechanism for airlines based on passenger nucleic acid test results upon  arrival in order to contain the number of imported cases of COVID-19.
_
_As an incentive, carriers will be allowed to increase the number of  international flights to two per week on one route if the number of  passengers who have a positive nucleic acid test on their flights stands  at zero for three consecutive weeks, according to the administration.
_
_The airline must suspend the operation of the route for one week if  the number of passengers who test positive for the coronavirus reaches  five. If the number exceeds 10, the airline will suspend the flights for  four weeks, it said._
_
Qi Qi, an associate professor at Guangzhou Civil Aviation College,  said that the mechanism will be of great help to spur airlines to step  up their epidemic prevention and control measures, while still  responding to the reasonable demands of foreign airlines to resume  passenger flights to and from China._
_
It also fits in with China's regular epidemic prevention and control  measures and fully advances work resumption requirements, he said,  adding that if the virus remains under control, the international  flights could be increased, offering a clear expectation to the  airlines, passengers and foreign governments."_

Eased rules for inbound flights set to facilitate travel - Travel - Chinadaily.com.cn

----------


## harrybarracuda

> 1.  before COVID-19, how many flights per day fell outside these hours at those airports?
> 2.  what difference would it make to the spread if flights were to arrive or depart after 8 pm?


Oh come on Ray, how can they spot the Wuhan virus trying to sneak out of the airport if it's dark?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> _"__With the COVID-19 epidemic gradually easing in China, the country's  top aviation regulator announced on Thursday an increase in  international flights, a move that experts said will facilitate  passenger flows and help Chinese stranded abroad to come home.
> _


Splendid news indeed (for the countries hosting them).

----------


## harrybarracuda

I think these people need to wise up and realise that their industry is not only going to have to slim down, but that it will probably be permanent. What are they going to do, go on strike?




> British Airways has warned it will sack all of its 4300 pilots if it can't reach an agreement with unions over further job cuts as the airline starts a legal push to block the UK government's 14-day self-isolation plan for arrivals starting on Monday.
> 
> The airline told its pilots union that it would dismiss all of the company's 4300 pilots and rehire them on individual contracts unless the union reached an agreement with the carrier. The company, which is negotiating a planned reduction of 1130 roles represented by airline pilot union Balpa, sought another 125 pilot jobs on Wednesday, the union said in an email.
> 
> "This has seriously undermined our talks which now hang by a thread," Brian Strutton, the general secretary of the union, said in an email. "It calls into question whether BA is even capable of conducting industrial relations properly and whether anything they say can be trusted."
> A spokesperson for the airline, which is working on cutting 12,000 jobs across the company, said in an email it's "acting now to protect as many jobs possible," adding that "the airline industry is facing the deepest structural change in its history, as well as facing a severely weakened global economy".
> 
> Concerned the self-isolation requirement would block its plans to restart services in July, British Airways' parent IAG sent a letter to the Home Office to start the process to block the quarantine, which could lead to a lawsuit, according to a copy of the letter seen by Bloomberg News.
> The letter, also signed by Europe's two biggest discount carriers Ryanair and EasyJet, pointed to how the measures will apply to travelers from countries with lower infection rates than the U.K., and disproportionately affect those from England than Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, the letter showed.
> ...


British Airways threatens to sack all 4,300 of its pilots - Executive Traveller

----------


## Troy

> The PIA crash has gone strangely silent, although I did read they'd managed to get the data off both the CVR and the FDR.
> 
> I assume that the official report won't say 100% that the pilots fucked it up, even though it's fairly obvious that they did.
> 
> You might even end up with another case of the experts saying what happened and the egotistical Pakistani government/airforce coming up with their own version. It's happened before in other third world countries.


Airbus have reviewed the FDR and CVR data and issued a statement that there are no recommended safety notices that need to be issued at the moment.

----------


## lom

> Airbus have reviewed the FDR and CVR data and issued a statement that there are no recommended safety notices that need to be issued at the moment.


That is a diplomatic way of saying it was  pilot error.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> That is a diplomatic way of saying it was  pilot error.


Or it's a diplomatic way of saying it might be the engines  :Smile:

----------


## OhOh

> it was pilot error.


Unsaid, but the AB statement covers all operational errors by the airline or other agencies.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Well it seems the ATC have all but given the investigating team their answers. It will be hard for the Pakistan air force to pin this one on the aircraft, no matter how desperate they are to do so.

Shouldn't take long to close this one really: The only difficult bit will be the technical details of how the damage to the engines lead to the failure of both.




> The French team arrived as the AAIB team continued its own investigation into the crash. The sources said that the air traffic controller and approach tower controller who were on duty at the time of air crash submitted their written replies to the inquiry committee.
> 
> According to the sources, the approach tower controller handled the flight from Lahore to Karachi and assigned the task of landing the aircraft to the ATC after 10 nautical miles away from landing. They informed the inquiry board about the final moments of the flight.
> 
> According to the response given by the ATC controller to the investigation team, the sources said, the captain ignored instructions 10 nautical miles from the landing. Before landing at Karachi airport, the planes fly at 1,800 feet high, but the captain was flying ill-fate plane at an altitude of 3,000 feet.
> 
> Despite repeated instructions, the captain said that he would manage the altitude and speed before landing. They told the investigators that in his first attempt, the captain came to land the aircraft without opening the landing gear.
> When the captain made the first landing, both engines hit and scratched against the runway three times, they said, adding that _the captain was busy maintaining the speed and the altitude of the landing, therefore he forgot to open the landing gear._
> 
> _Landing the aircraft without landing gear created sparks when the engine hits the runway. The captain flew the plane again and asked for permission to land, the controllers said, adding that at the time of second landing the captain said the engines had stopped working._


Airbus experts visit crash site as ATC blames pilot error | The Express Tribune

----------


## lom

> When the captain made the first landing, both engines hit and scratched against the runway three times





> The only difficult bit will be the  technical details of how the damage to the engines lead to the failure  of both.


Did you expect that only one of the engines would fail after both of them had bumped down into the tarmac three times?  :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Did you expect that only one of the engines would fail after both of them had bumped down into the tarmac three times?


The investigation has to say a little bit more than "they banged the engines and they stopped working".

Nor will they say "this happened on one, so it probably happened on the other".

They will do a detailed analysis of both engines as best they can, describing the damage and the impact it had on engine performance.

The idea being to come up with any suggestions to prevent future accidents. 

Remember, this aircraft was still flying after the runway contact. What if if was something simple like ruptured oil lines that could be reinforced?

----------


## OhOh

Are the "French" a trustworthy bunch? Wouldn't an independent team, say from Hong Kong, be more truthful?

----------


## lom

> The idea being to come up with any suggestions to prevent future accidents.


Like "use the landing gear"..  :Smile: 

Those pilots didn't only do one error, they did a series of them:

Approaching the airport at too high altitude and therefore also at too high speed giving them lots of things to think of and take care of in the short time frame before touching down. They became so busy that they didn't hear the alarm "too low, gear" and when they did the go-around they were way below the no-go-around height limit. Lives might had been saved if they instead had continued with the belly-landing.

We can't fix stupid said Airbus..

----------


## Troy

> Are the "French" a trustworthy bunch? Wouldn't an independent team, say from Hong Kong, be more truthful?


Yes they are and no they wouldn't. 

The Pakistan authorities will lead the investigation, as per normal procedure, and the French will assist as the aircraft manufacturer. 

The engines were CFM56 ...  donks that go for yonks...as long as you don't whack them against the runway.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Like "use the landing gear"..


All of that will be taken into account, but that doesn't stop them making other suggestions to avoid the end result.

----------


## helge

> The idea being to come up with any suggestions to prevent future accidents.


Could they make the Pakistani runways like really fast moving conveyor belts, so they could belly land if they so desired ?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Could they make the Pakistani runways like really fast moving conveyor belts, so they could belly land if they so desired ?


You appear to have gone full retard.

----------


## misskit

THAI swoops to protect planes from seizure

Thai Airways International (THAI) has petitioned courts in three countries to protects its assets -- including its aircraft operating scheduled flights -- from being seized by its creditors, said government spokeswoman Narumon Pinyosinwat on Tuesday.


The cabinet on Tuesday was informed about the filing of debt-rehabilitation requests in foreign countries by Deputy Prime Minister Wissanu Krea-ngam, who chairs the government-appointed committee tasked with coordinating a solution to THAI's problems.


Ms Narumon said the airline has so far petitioned the courts in Switzerland, Germany and Japan, before adding that the flag carrier is in the middle of submitting a similar request in the United States, where its creditors are based. The petitions, if approved, will protect THAI against the seizure of its assets -- for example, its aircraft being impounded overseas.

Prior to the grounding of THAI's entire fleet at the onset of the Covid-19 pandemic, the airline flew to all of the countries whose courts it had petitioned -- except the US.


Last month, the Central Bankruptcy Court in Thailand agreed to examine the airline's rehabilitation request. The court is scheduled to decide on Aug 18 whether or not it will admit the case, which would effectively begin the rehab process.

For the process to occur smoothly, talks with creditors will have to start before Aug 17, in order to limit the possibility of THAI's creditors objecting to the plan when it is presented to the court, Ms Narumon said.


She said an objection will delay and complicate the execution of the rehabilitation plan, and said that this is an issue that the airline's legal consultants are working hard to avoid.


The cabinet was told on Tuesday that THAI racked up 12 billion baht in debt last year, bringing up its total outstanding debt to 244 billion baht.


The airline has fixed expenses amounting to between 5-6 billion baht a month. Without a liquidity boost, THAI will only have enough cash to survive until the end of the month.


The rehabilitation plan is being drawn up by five members of the THAI board, which includes its former president, Piyasvasti Amranand, under the supervision of the bankruptcy court. Along with EY Corporate Advisory Services, they will have "the authority and duty in managing the business and assets of the company", the carrier told the Stock Exchange of Thailand at the end of last month.


On a different note, THAI has announced it is relaunching domestic and international flights next month.

THAI swoops to protect planes from seizure

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Thai Airways International (THAI) has petitioned courts in three countries to protects its assets -- including its aircraft operating scheduled flights


They do have a fucking nerve. Many of the aircraft are leased, so they are not "its" aircraft if it isn't fucking paying for them.

----------


## OhOh

> They do have a fucking nerve. Many of the  aircraft are leased, so they are not "its" aircraft if it isn't fucking  paying for them.





> EY Corporate Advisory Services


Will keep them straight.

Our Global Code of Conduct | EY - Global

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Will keep them straight.
> 
> Our Global Code of Conduct | EY - Global


And the twat goes off waffling again.

----------


## NamPikToot

Just got this from Thai Airways..just leaves me with the the word "And" floating around  :Smile: 




Dear                Valued customers,
 We                would like to inform our valued customers that certain letters,                documents, or notifications may be delivered to you via E-mail or                SMS in accordance with the business reorganization process of                Thai Airways International Public Company Limited consequent to                the relevant business reorganization petition filed with and                found for by the Central Bankruptcy Court.
 During                the period where the company undergoes the business                reorganization, which plays a significant role to its survival,                the company remains resolute to ensure our customers are provided                with the best care within its current capability, especially for                those whose airfare refunds are pending as well as honor certain                benefits for our Royal Orchid Plus members, including membership                status and miles being the most important . Please rest assured                that the company shall overcome this crisis, albeit great                magnitude, and be Airline of Pride which offers the best                on-flight services for our valued customers once again. Any                update and progress will be further communicated to you via                various channels.
 On                this occasion, please allow us to express our gratitude for your                kind understanding and patronage through these years. It is our                greatest hope to be able to serve you again in the near future.
Best                regards, 
Thai Airways International Public Company                Limited

----------


## HuangLao

> Just got this from Thai Airways..just leaves me with the the word "And" floating around 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear                Valued customers,
>  We                would like to inform our valued customers that certain letters,                documents, or notifications may be delivered to you via E-mail or                SMS in accordance with the business reorganization process of                Thai Airways International Public Company Limited consequent to                the relevant business reorganization petition filed with and                found for by the Central Bankruptcy Court.
>  During                the period where the company undergoes the business                reorganization, which plays a significant role to its survival,                the company remains resolute to ensure our customers are provided                with the best care within its current capability, especially for                those whose airfare refunds are pending as well as honor certain                benefits for our Royal Orchid Plus members, including membership                status and miles being the most important . Please rest assured                that the company shall overcome this crisis, albeit great                magnitude, and be ‘Airline of Pride’ which offers the best                on-flight services for our valued customers once again. Any                update and progress will be further communicated to you via                various channels.
>  On                this occasion, please allow us to express our gratitude for your                kind understanding and patronage through these years. It is our                greatest hope to be able to serve you again in the near future.
> ...



Oh dear, Tooty.
You're not really a regular with TG, are ya? 

I thought better of you.

----------


## NamPikToot

Erm on and off Jeff approx 30 years, so yep still learning  :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

Prefer Bangkok Airways these days tbh.

----------


## lom

> Prefer Bangkok Airways these days tbh.


It is a well run thriving and thieving company.

----------


## David48atTD

Thailands national carrier, Thai Airways International PCL (Thai  Airways), has decided to enter rehabilitation, making it the latest  victim of the tourism decline brought about by the COVID-19 pandemic.

This act of rehabilitation under Thai Law is akin to a business  filing for Chapter 11 in the US. 
As per Thai law, submission to  rehabilitation means that its government will determine the best course  of action to facilitate a recovery for the entity.

 Thai Airways decision to enter rehabilitation wasnt actually its  first choice. 

Prior to this, the Thai government initially offered a  rescue bailout to the national carrier to the sum of 58.1 billion baht  (~RM7.9 billion). 
To be fair, its cash flow woes had begun way before  the pandemic kicked in. 

The airline has reported losses every year since  2012, with the exception of 2016, when it actually got back in the  black. Last year, the company has a reported loss of 12.05 billion baht  (~RM1.64 billion).

Thai Airways Files For Bankruptcy Protection; Agrees To Rehabilitation Plan | Lowyat.NET
and
Bankruptcy court accepts THAI case

----------


## aging one

David this happened May 19th..

----------


## crackerjack101

A polite request;

If any one should get any info on the Jet Star Asia flights, Bangkok - Singapore - Darwin and back I'd really appreciate it.

I've tried to talk to them but got no where and it's a bugger as it's my preferred route to get to Darwin for regular checkups. 

I usually (the last few years) do Bangkok Airways to Swampy then the Jet Star bit then a week later do whatever is available to get from Swampy to Chiang Rai.

I'm a couple of months behind now and it'd be good to get checked.

Cheers all.

----------


## HuangLao

> It is a well run thriving and thieving company.



Comes with the territory. 
Loosely underwriting by similar parties. 

Back in the day, was a decent outfit [domestically].
Something went array along the way.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Comes with the territory. 
> Loosely underwriting by similar parties. 
> 
> Back in the day, was a decent outfit [domestically].
> Something went array along the way.


Oh do fuck off Jeff, you dull c u n t.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> It is a well run thriving and thieving company.


thieving what exactly?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> A polite request;
> 
> If any one should get any info on the Jet Star Asia flights, Bangkok - Singapore - Darwin and back I'd really appreciate it.
> 
> I've tried to talk to them but got no where and it's a bugger as it's my preferred route to get to Darwin for regular checkups. 
> 
> I usually (the last few years) do Bangkok Airways to Swampy then the Jet Star bit then a week later do whatever is available to get from Swampy to Chiang Rai.
> 
> I'm a couple of months behind now and it'd be good to get checked.
> ...


Why don't you follow them on twatter or facetubegram? They'll probably make announcements through their social media channels.

Facetube

https://twitter.com/jetstar_asia?lang=ena

Login • Instagram

----------


## lom

> thieving what exactly?


Heavily overcharging their customers

----------


## OhOh

Used them for years UK > BKK, BKK > Asia and OZ. Excellent 747, 380 and regional planes and services. Check-in, lounges, on-board. Only one delay and that was a volcano blowing up. I had to wait an extra week in Bangkok, so disheartening.  :Smile:

----------


## Troy

^ I can't recall Bangkok airways ever having an a380 or a b747. Or are you referring to Thai?

----------


## NamPikToot

All turbo prop last time i used them, was a while ago so pop to Trat.  :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Heavily overcharging their customers


Well that's surprising, because I've never found them to be expensive.

Were you buying late, because that's where LCCs can ramp up the charges?

----------


## lom

> Well that's surprising, because I've never found them to be expensive.


Then you have probably not flown with them from BKK to Samui. 
Add 2000baht to the Samui price when going to Singapore with them, pay 60% of the Samui price when going to Phuket with them. That's how monopoly works..
Bandit Airways. (and its the same owner as Bandit Hospital)

----------


## lom

> I can't recall Bangkok airways ever having an a380 or a b747.


*"The current fleet comprises of 9 Airbus 320s, 16 Airbus 319s and 13 ATR72-600s"*

----------


## Troy

^ You won't find me in a prop during the rain season.

----------


## OhOh

> Or are you referring to Thai


Yes, I was.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Then you have probably not flown with them from BKK to Samui. 
> Add 2000baht to the Samui price when going to Singapore with them, pay 60% of the Samui price when going to Phuket with them. That's how monopoly works..
> Bandit Airways. (and its the same owner as Bandit Hospital)


Ah yes, you're right, I've never flown with them to Samui.

In fact the last time I was on Samui there wasn't an airport.

So if you're talking about that particular route, then you're probably right to complain. Elsewhere, they are in competition.

There is a simple solution though....

----------


## cyrille

Yeah, they basically built the airport.

If they had a monopoly on, say, Bangkok to Hat Yai then it would be more problematic.

As it is, it’s an appropriate introduction to Samui.  :Very Happy:

----------


## aging one

> In fact the last time I was on Samui there wasn't an airport.


Long time Harry, its been open 31 years. Opened the year I moved there.

----------


## Klondyke

> Opened the year I moved there.


Wondering whether the Chinkies did not have a hand in it...

----------


## cyrille

Would have been a few weeks before it opened when I was there then -March ‘89. Lovely spot in those days, though people were already complaining that prices were rising fast.  :Very Happy:

----------


## lom

> You won't find me in a prop during the rain season.


There wasn't much to choose from when flying to Samui in the past, they didn't have the A320 family before mid 2000 so I've flown a lot with them in  ATR-72 and often in rainy conditions.

I've even flown with them in a smaller turboprop, can't remember what kind but most probably the ATR-40. Kaki brown, had not yet been painted in Bangkok Airways colors. 
That was before Samui airport was officially opened and the runway was then only a long unpaved sand strip!! 
The single terminal building was a tiled floor without roof, the arrival and departure sections of the floor being separated by chains.
The hand written ticket looked more like something you get in a shop and not like an air ticket :Smile: , price was 1700 baht for a BKK-Samui return trip if memory serves me. No daily flights, one flight every 2 or 3 days.

----------


## HuangLao

There's always inter-provincial coach/bus service -

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Long time Harry, its been open 31 years. Opened the year I moved there.


Indeed, it was a circuitous tour of the south with the then stewardess girlfriend. Bangkok-Surat Thani-Samui-Surat Thani- Krabi-Phi Phi-Phuket-Bangok, boat and bus except for the Bangkok legs.

The days when Phi Phi and Phuket were pristine and quiet, and the only entertainment in Krabi was the Thai dance hall, which was a fucking hoot I'll never forget.

I even rented a Jet Ski in Samui and didn't get ripped off, that's how long ago it is.

Those were the days when your Nok Air's and Air Asia's were a glimmer in their parents eyes, and Bangkok Airways didn't even have jets.

 :Smile:

----------


## klong toey

Saturday evening read  scroll down for the English translation.
http://tgcase1.cbc.coj.go.th/cbctg0001.pdf

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Saturday evening read  scroll down for the English translation.
> http://tgcase1.cbc.coj.go.th/cbctg0001.pdf


If Thai Eastar Jet (whoever they are) had just paid the Bt260, the whole thing could have been avoided.

 :Smile:

----------


## Troy

^^ I get a server not found error when I try the link.

^ Thai Eaststar is a joint venture of Eaststar from South Korea after a google search. Recent startup, bad timing with Covid rearing its ugly head....


======================

Okay have the doc now...

----------


## klong toey

> If Thai Eastar Jet (whoever they are) had just paid the Bt260, the whole thing could have been avoided.


It clearly states on page 112 paragraph 10 the failure of an undisclosed TD member choosing to fly PG instead of TG about 30 years ago is the main cause of the airlines  demise  :Smile:

----------


## Klondyke

> The days when Phi Phi and Phuket were pristine and quiet, and the only entertainment in Krabi was the Thai dance hall, which was a fucking hoot I'll never forget.
> 
> I even rented a Jet Ski in Samui


I made a short fast trip to Samui in 1983 (stealing few days out from my business stay in Bkk), being curious after reading an account of a guy who complained that it is no longer so "pristine and quiet" as it was when he was there 20 years ago...

----------


## OhOh

*While The Industry Crumbles, One Airline Is Making Money Hand Over Fist Shipping Pigs To China*

_"
__Volga-Dnepr Group also has been shipping masks, hazmat suits, medical  equipment and street-disinfecting equipment to places like Russia and  Germany. The company saw its sales skyrocket 32% to $630 million this year.

_
_Alexey Isaykin, who holds a $700 million stake in the company, said:  “Global aviation is going through its most challenging time ever, but  for cargo carriers like us it’s a chance. Previously, more than half of  all aviation cargoes were carried in the luggage compartments of  passenger planes. With this supply vanishing from the market, demand for  cargo airlines surged and prices more than doubled.”

“The geography of our shipments is expanding, following the spread of  coronavirus. We just started shipping Chinese medical goods to Africa  and are getting first inquiries from Latin America. I think India will  be next,” Isaykin said."
_
While The Industry Crumbles, One Airline Is Making Money Hand Over Fist Shipping Pigs To China | Zero Hedge

----------


## harrybarracuda

For those of you who can travel around Thailand, Vietjet are giving tickets away from 15th-19th June.

And yes, the BKK Post article is dated 17th.




> To celebrate the new routes, over 500,000 promotional tickets from only THB5 (excluding taxes and fees) are given away for 5 days from 15th - 19th June 2020, during the golden hours between 12:00 and 14:00 (GMT+7) on website VietJetAir.com - Enjoy Flying!. The promotion tickets are available for the travel period from 1st July till end-December 2020.


Celebrating 5 new routes for ‘5-month free travels with Thai Vietjet’ on Sky Fun

----------


## NamPikToot

Well, i was left with a WTF question hanging after the last Email i got from Thai Airways and they have followed up and clarified.... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 





  เรียน ท่านลูกค้าผู้มีอุปการคุณอย่างสูง
 
          บริษัท การบินไทย จำกัด (มหาชน) ขอชี้แจงเพื่อความเข้าใจที่ถูกต้องสำหรับหนังสื  อ เอกสารหรือข้อความจากศาลล้มละลายกลางเกี่ยวกับการฟื้  นฟูกิจการของบริษัทฯ ที่ท่านอาจได้รับจากศาลล้มละลายกลางผ่านทางระบบ E-Mail หรือ SMS อันเป็นผลมาจากการเข้าสู่กระบวนการฟื้นฟูกิจการ
          ในฐานะที่ท่านเป็นลูกค้าที่มีคุณค่าและมีความสำคัญยิ  ่ง บริษัทฯจึงใคร่ขอเรียนให้ท่านทราบถึงความคืบหน้าของก  ารดำเนินการต่างๆ ของบริษัทฯ อย่างไรก็ตาม ท่านไม่จำเป็นต้องดำเนินการใดๆ ในการยื่นขอรับชำระหนี้ เนื่องจากบริษัทฯ มีนโยบายและความมุ่งมั่นตั้งใจในการดูแลลูกค้าผู้มีอ  ุปการคุณอย่างสูงของบริษัทฯ อย่างดีที่สุด ภายใต้กระบวนการฟื้นฟูกิจการ ทั้งในส่วนของการคืนค่าบัตรโดยสาร การดูแลสมาชิกรอยัล ออร์คิด พลัส และบัตรโดยสารที่ท่านถืออยู่ จึงขอให้ท่านไว้วางใจ และเชื่อมั่นว่าบริษัทฯ จะสามารถก้าวผ่านวิกฤตและอุปสรรคในครั้งนี้และสามารถ  กลับมาให้บริการท่านได้อย่างเต็มรูปแบบตามปกติต  ่อไป
          บริษัทฯ ขอขอบพระคุณลูกค้าทุกท่านที่เข้าใจสถานการณ์และให้กา  รสนับสนุนกิจการของบริษัทฯ มาโดยตลอด และหวังเป็นอย่างยิ่งว่าจะสามารถกลับมาให้บริการแก่ล  ูกค้าทุกท่านได้ภายหลังมาตรการเฝ้าระวัง ป้องกัน และควบคุมการแพร่ระบาดของการติดเชื้อไวรัสโคโรน  ่า 2019 ที่เกี่ยวกับการเดินทางเข้า-ออก ประเทศไทย ได้รับการผ่อนปรนในอนาคตอันใกล้นี้
          ทั้งนี้ ท่านสามารถทราบรายละเอียดเกี่ยวกับกระบวนการตามกฎหมา  ยตลอดจนสิทธิ หน้าที่ และผลกระทบต่อท่านลูกค้าได้ ที่นี่
ขอแสดงความนับถือ
บริษัท การบินไทย จำกัด (มหาชน)



Dear Valued Customers,
          Thai Airways Public Company Limited (“THAI”) would like to ensure sound understanding of our valued customers regarding communications you may have received via E-mail or SMS subsequent to the THAI’s business reorganization.  This is because you are regarded as a significant customer of THAI who should be updated accordingly.    
          However, THAI would like to further inform our valued customers are not required to take any action for debt repayment filing because such aspect shall be included in our policy to accommodate our customers to the best of our ability during this period, especially for customers requesting airfare refunds, members of the Royal Orchid Plus program, and air ticket holders. Please rest assured that THAI shall rise above this hardship and resume its normal operations as soon as possible.
          THAI would like to express its gratitude for your kind understanding and longstanding patronage. We have high hopes to return to our normal services following the easing of Thailand’s COVID-19 surveillance, prevention, and control measures in respect of inbound and outbound flights.
           Furthermore, THAI would like to provide the following details of the legal procedures as well as the rights, duties, and impact to our valued customers, please click here.

Best regards,
Thai Airways International Public Company Limited

----------


## misskit

*No more social distancing on domestic flights in Thailand*

The Civil Aviation Authority of Thailand (CAAT) has further eased domestic air travel service restrictions, by doing away with the on-board social distancing requirement.


CCAT Director Mr. Chula Sookmanop said today that, from now on, airlines can sell all the seats on each flight, without the need to leave some vacant for social distancing.


The airlines, however, must improve their in-flight air ventilation systems and replace the high efficiency particulate air filters on a regular basis, in accordance with the manufacturers recommendations.


The airlines must also warn their passengers that they may face legal action if they do not wear face mask throughout the flight.


Meanwhile, Transport Minister Saksayam Chidchob said Thursday that, from July 1st, family members travelling together on electric trains in Bangkok will be allowed to sit together, because the duration of each trip does not exceed 50 minutes.


He said that he has instructed the Mass Rapid Transit Authority of Thailand (MRT) to inform the public about this new seating arrangement for the Blue and Purple lines, explaining that the easing of restrictions was in line with the improvement of the COVID-19 situation and to reduce costs for the MRT.


Mr. Saksayam also distributed free face masks to train commuters on Thursday, as part of the MRTs Healthy Journey with BEM programme, to encourage commuters to wear them.


One million face masks are to be distributed between now and August.

No more social distancing on domestic flights in Thailand – Thai PBS World

----------


## cisco999

> There's always inter-provincial coach/bus service -


But don't you suppose he probably wants to arrive at his destination alive?

----------


## OhOh

> But don't you suppose he probably wants to arrive at his destination alive?


What's the ratio of deaths to safely delivered passage miles?

Compared to minibus/self drive/train.

----------


## Troy

> Well, i was left with a WTF question hanging after the last Email i got from Thai Airways and they have followed up and clarified....


Lucky you!

I have heard nothing about my tickets. I expect some compensation before I will use Thai again.

----------


## lom

> I expect some compensation before I will use Thai again.


If you're thinking of a monetary refund then it can only be "some", they are not allowed to favor any creditor now that they have filed for bankruptcy with company reconstruction. Allowing them to exchange your old ticket with a new at a later time is probably your best option.

----------


## Troy

^ I am expecting a reduced fare or free upgrade for my next trip as compensation.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^ I am expecting a reduced fare or free upgrade for my next trip as compensation.


Are you a Royal Silk member?

----------


## Troy

^ Yes, and so is the wife.

----------


## NamPikToot

Good luck with that Troy, i would dial your expectations down to avoid disappointment. I got a voucher and i am going to have to top it up to buy the next ticket. Of course I will have to wait until chairman fukwit has decided the new tourist rules and for the stars to align for me to be lucky enough meet whatever they are.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^ Yes, and so is the wife.


Well you'll probably get your credit note first then.

 :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

On the offchance that a few places will be open in September, I had a look at prices on a few Gulf airlines.

Gulf Air and Oman Air are within the price range pre-pandemic.

Emirates and Etihad are virtually double.

Qatar are the most expensive of the lot.

I'm debating gambling on a flight because the chances that prices will skyrocket are pretty good, whereas the refund penalty might not be so bad.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Of course if you are Orstrilian.....




> When Covid-19 first hit with seismic impact, one of the first industries to suffer consequences of closed borders was that of the travel sector. The job losses from airline companies, hotel and other accommodations sectors came quickly, and for most Australians who were gearing up for overseas travel, the cancellation of such escapades was a difficult one to confront. But as the curve has been flattened and restrictions eased, all anyone has been waiting to hear is when international travel can once again resume. We are, after all, a country that loves to travel – and we need to, as well, given that Australia feels so far removed from the rest of the world. But according to Tourism Minister Simon Birmingham, you might need to shelve those travel dreams a little while longer, as the minister suggests Australia won’t be letting tourists into (or out of) the country until 2021.
> 
> International Travel Will Likely Remain Off The Cards Until 2021 - GQ

----------


## HuangLao

> Good luck with that Troy, i would dial your expectations down to avoid disappointment. I got a voucher and i am going to have to top it up to buy the next ticket. Of course I will have to wait until chairman fukwit has decided the new tourist rules and for the stars to align for me to be lucky enough meet whatever they are.


Indeed.
I wouldn't be holding my breath expecting anything beneficial from the current state of Thai Airways [Int'l/Domestic] 

Might be better to jump ship and take one's losses.

----------


## Troy

^ Domestic is Thai Smile and they provided excellent service when we used them to get back to Germany. Yes, they cancelled the evening flight and rebooked us on the morning one. However, I consider that a minor inconvenience considering current crisis. Even with hotel for the day, waiting for night flight, they were cheaper and more convenient than alternatives.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^ Domestic is Thai Smile and they provided excellent service when we used them to get back to Germany. Yes, they cancelled the evening flight and rebooked us on the morning one. However, I consider that a minor inconvenience considering current crisis. Even with hotel for the day, waiting for night flight, they were cheaper and more convenient than alternatives.


Thai Smile is just Thai Airways rebadged as a LCC.

----------


## HuangLao

> Thai Smile is just Thai Airways rebadged as a LCC.


Pig in lipstick.
Still remains a pig.

----------


## Troy

> Thai Smile is just Thai Airways rebadged as a LCC.


Pretty sure that was implied in my post.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Pretty sure that was implied in my post.


Just checking, not that it matters, it's the same tired old aircraft that are in dire need of at least a refurbish inside.

----------


## Troy

The interim accident report is out for PIA 8303...


https://www.caapakistan.com.pk/Uploa...s/AAIB-431.pdf


It sounds worse than I first thought (if that's possible). The gear was down during the approach and selected up with 5nmi to go. They also selected reverse thrust during the first landing (on the engines) before initiating a GA.

Not sure if they thought they were on Play Station at the time...

...Madness.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> The interim accident report is out for PIA 8303...
> 
> It sounds worse than I first thought (if that's possible). The gear was down during the approach and selected up with 5nmi to go. They also selected reverse thrust during the first landing (on the engines) before initiating a GA.
> 
> Not sure if they thought they were on Play Station at the time...
> 
> ...Madness.


Christ on a bike, what a fucking shit show.




> According to the FDR and CVR recordings several warnings and alerts such as over-speed, landing gear not down and ground proximity alerts were disregarded. The landing was undertaken with landing gears retracted. The aircraft touched the runway surface on its engines. Flight crew applied reverse engine power and initiated a braking action.

----------


## aging one

ATC did not tell them they had scraped the runway either...

----------


## baldrick

has the travel shutdown triggered a need for cattle class air line meals

you could partake in virgin fare

Fasten your seat belts: Brave Reg hack spends a week eating airline food grounded by coronavirus crash • The Register

----------


## misskit

*NokScoot budget airline to downsize fleet and staff at end of June*

Thailand’s low-cost airline, NokScoot, plans to take three aircraft out of service and reduce its staffing level at the end of this month, in a major reorganization caused by the COVID-19 pandemic.


Majority-owned by Nok Air, which is affiliated with Thai Airways International, the company issued a statement today saying that the major restructuring is necessary, because the airline has been hit hard by COVID-19 and international air services are likely to be restricted for the next 2-3 years, making it impossible for NokScoot to recover and resume normal operations.


The company maintains that the airline is not ceasing operations, but is awaiting a clear signal from the Civil Aviation Authority of Thailand about when it will allow in-bound international flights again.


Due to the contraction of aviation industry, the company said that it has decided to downsize its fleet, which means that the number of air crew will also have to be reduced.


The airline said that it has been a very difficult decision for the management to lay off staff, but assured that they would be compensated properly and in accordance with the law.


NokScoot operates international services out of its base at Don Mueang international airport.

NokScoot budget airline to downsize fleet and staff at end of June – Thai PBS World

----------


## misskit

Aeroflot Still Flying Abroad Despite Russia's International Travel Ban  Vedomosti

Russias flagship carrier Aeroflot has been secretly flying passengers abroad for nearly a month despite state-mandated grounded flights due to the coronavirus pandemic, the Vedomosti business daily reported Wednesday.


Russia grounded nearly all international flights in late March to slow the coronavirus, allowing only special flights evacuating Russians from abroad and other government-authorized flights. Aeroflot has suspended ticket sales for international flights until Aug. 1, when it said there would be more clarity about when Russia would lift its ban.


Aeroflot has been operating flights to New York, Paris, London, Frankfurt, Seoul and Tel Aviv since at least early June, Vedomosti cited unnamed employees of three airlines including Aeroflot as saying.


These flights are officially registered as cargo, but tickets are sold with permission from Rosaviatsia [Russias Federal Air Transport Agency], two Aeroflot representatives were quoted as saying. 

MORE https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/...domosti-a70694

----------


## harrybarracuda

FFS are they only just finding this out!




> Islamabad, Pakistan (CNN)More than 30% of civilian pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses and are not qualified to fly, the country's aviation minister revealed Wednesday.
> 
> Addressing Pakistan's National Assembly, Ghulam Sarwar Khan said 262 pilots in the country "did not take the exam themselves" and had paid someone else to sit it on their behalf.
> "They don't have flying experience," he said.
> 
> 
> Pakistan has 860 active pilots serving its domestic airlines -- including the country's Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) flagship -- as well as a number of foreign carriers, Khan said.
> PIA has grounded all its pilots who hold fake licenses, effective immediately.
> "PIA acknowledges that fake licenses is not just a PIA issue but spread across the entire Pakistani airline industry," spokesperson Abdullah Khan said, adding that some of the fake pilots also fly for foreign carriers.


Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says - CNN

----------


## NamPikToot

Qantas: Australia’s largest airline to cut 6,000 jobs to survive coronavirus crisis

Australian airline Qantas has announced plans to cut at least 6,000 jobs and keep 15,000 more employees on extended furlough as part of a cost-cutting plan to try and stay afloat amid the coronavirus pandemic.


The airline, which employs about 29,000 people, said plans to reduce costs and raise fresh capital also include grounding 100 planes for a year or more and immediately retiring its six remaining Boeing 747 planes.


Alan Joyce, chief executive of Qantas, said shrinking the airline was necessary to brace for several years of much lower revenues and furloughed staff faced a long interruption to their airline careers.


“The actions that we’re taking will have a huge impact on thousands of our people. This is something that weighs very heavily on all of us,” he told reporters on Thursday.


“This is something that we don’t make a decision on very easily. But the collapse of billions of dollars in revenue leaves us with little choice if we are to save as many jobs as possible longer term.”


Mr Joyce said although Qantas had entered the pandemic in a better position than most airlines and remained optimistic about the future, the crisis “has still hit us very, very hard” and added the impact will “be felt for a long time”.


He said he expected just 8,000 employees to be working again by next month and 15,000 by the end of the year. With international routes opening again over the next two years, Mr Joyce said he hoped the workforce would increase again to 21,000.


The job losses would include at least 1,450 from mostly corporate roles, 1,500 in ground operations including baggage handling, 1050 cabin crew, 630 in engineering and 220 pilots. Some contractors, particularly in information technology, would also be out of work.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/coronavirus-qantas-australian-airline-job-cuts-furlough-a9585151.html

----------


## helge

> Islamabad, Pakistan (CNN)More than 30% of civilian pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses and are not qualified to fly, the country's aviation minister revealed Wednesday.


That is a shocker.

Hopefully not airline pilots.


I know that you can buy a lot of paperwork in Khao San Rd, but....


A wake up call to airports around the world, if true

----------


## harrybarracuda

> That is a shocker.
> 
> Hopefully not airline pilots.


Maybe you should read it all.





> _"PIA acknowledges that fake licenses is not just a PIA issue but spread across the entire Pakistani airline industry," spokesperson Abdullah Khan said, adding that some of the fake pilots also fly for foreign carriers._

----------


## helge

> Maybe you should read it all.


Guilty

Shocking

----------


## tomcat

...a little more info on PIA:

*Pakistan national airline grounds third of pilots over 'dubious' licences
*Pakistan national airline grounds third of pilots over '&#39;'dubious'&#39;' licences

Ben Farmer
June 25, 2020, 5:28 PM GMT+7


A Pakistan International Airlines plane prepares to land at Islamabad airport in Islamabad - ReutersPakistan's national airline will ground a third of its pilots on suspicion they hold dubious licences and flying certificates.

The move was announced after air accident investigators blamed a Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) pilot for last month's crash in Karachi which killed 99 people.
A government minister said the crew were over confident and distracted by a conversation about coronavirus when the PIA Airbus A320 crashed on May 22.
PIA was highly placed among world airlines until the 1970s, but its reputation has sunk with delays, cancellations and financial troubles. The airline has been embarrassed by reports of pilots falling asleep, or turning up drunk.

"We've been told that an investigation conducted by the civil aviation authority has found that about 150 of our pilots have dubious licenses," company spokesman Abdullah Khan told Reuters.

Investigations into pilot qualifications began after an earlier crash where it was found the pilot's license may have been fake. The test date indicated on his licence had been a public holiday. Another pilot was found to have been out of the country on the day he was said to have been tested, Mr Khan said.
In 2017 a PIA pilot was investigated for potentially putting the lives of more than 305 passengers at risk by putting a trainee pilot in charge while he took a nap in a passenger seat. The pilot was allegedly photographed reclining while covered in a blanket, but denied being asleep.

In 2013, a PIA pilot was jailed for nine months in Britain for being drunk as he prepared to fly 156 passengers.
Irfan Faiz, 55, was found three times over the legal limit, prosecutors told Leeds Crown Court.
The father-of-two was unsteady on his feet and smelled of alcohol while in the cockpit during checks for the flight from Leeds Bradford to Islamabad.

The airlines was embarrassed further in 2017 when first UK border officials and then Pakistani officials found consignments of heroin hidden on PIA flights between the countries. At the time the airline was investigating to see if any staff had links to drug traffickers.

----------


## NamPikToot

Yet they fly into airports worldwide - and everyone lets them. Unfortunately being scum is in their national DNA.

----------


## Troy

I think they should be looking at Pakistan's neighbour as well.

Not even on my emergency list when I choose an airline.

----------


## Chico

> Shocking


Surely when you go for an interview as a pilot they get you to fly a plane before giving you a job. :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Surely when you go for an interview as a pilot they get you to fly a plane before giving you a job.


Yes, and if you are a trained pilot standing in for someone else....

Duh.

----------


## David48atTD

Pakistan's state-run airline has grounded 150 pilots, accusing them of cheating on their exams.

*Key points:*
Pakistan  International Airlines spokesman Abdullah Hafeez said the company would  make sure "such unqualified pilots never fly aircraft again"There were only two survivors in the May 22 Airbus A320 crashAviation industry officials said Pakistan International Airlines first knew about the scandal two years ago 

The mass sacking came after investigations into a crash that killed 97 people in Karachi in May.

Pakistan  International Airlines spokesman Abdullah Hafeez said the company would  make sure "such unqualified pilots never fly aircraft again".

He said the safety of passengers was the airline's top priority.
The  International Air Transport Association said it was following reports  from Pakistan "regarding fake pilot licences, which are concerning and  represent a serious lapse in the licensing and safety oversight by the  aviation regulator".


The global airline organisation said it would seek more information.


*Pakistan pilots accused of cheating on exams after Karachi crash that killed 97 - ABC News*

Interesting that this comes at a time when tens of thousands Airline Staff are being laid off due to the effects of Covid-19.

----------


## tomcat

> I think they should be looking at Pakistan's neighbours as well.


...added an "s"...

----------


## misskit

*NokScoot Airlines to be liquidated*

NokScoot Airlines’ board of directors decided to liquidate the low-cost airline, a statement from the airline said.


NokScoot’s shareholders will deliberate on the resolution and decide on the liquidator during an annual general meeting on July 14. NokScoot, a joint venture between Singapore Airline’s low-cost arm Scoot and Thailand-based airline Nok Air, has been unable to record a full-year’s profit since its inception in 2014. Much of this was contributed to the difficult in expanding its network in an intensely competitive environment, and unprecedented challenges arising from the Covid-19 pandemic have further exacerbated the situation. Scoot, meanwhile, offered to sell its 49 per cent stake in NokScoot to Nok Air for a nominal sum of Bt1, but the offer was not accepted. Nok Airlines Plc on Friday also informed the Stock Exchange of Thailand the board’s resolution to terminate NokScoot Airlines. According to the SET filing, NokScoot Airlines has been suffering continuous losses, which was worsened by the Covid-19 pandemic. The airline’s equity has been negative since 2019.


NokAir, meanwhile, said that the liquidation of NokScoot poses no direct or indirect impact to the company’s normal operations.

NokScoot Airlines to be liquidated

----------


## misskit

Vietnam grounds Pakistani pilots over licence concerns

HANOI: Vietnam's aviation authority said on Monday it had grounded all Pakistani pilots working for local airlines, amid concern from global regulators that some pilots may have been using "dubious" licences.


Pakistan said last week it will ground 262 airline pilots whose credentials may have been falsified, after global airlines body IATA said that irregularities found in pilot licences at Pakistan International Airlines represent a "serious lapse" in safety controls.


"The head of the Civil Aviation Authority of Vietnam (CAAV) has ordered a suspension for all Pakistani pilots working for Vietnamese airlines," the CAAV said in a statement on Monday.

The suspension will be in effect until further notice from CAAV, it said, adding that the authority is coordinating with Pakistani authorities to review the pilots' profiles.


Vietnam had licensed 27 Pakistani pilots, and 12 of them were still active, while the other 15 pilots' contracts had expired or were inactive due to the coronavirus pandemic, according to the CAAV.

Of the 12 active pilots, 11 were working for budget airline VietJet Aviation and one for Jetstar Pacific, a unit of the national flag carrier Vietnam Airlines.


In a statement, VietJet said it had stopped assigning work to its Pakistani pilots as soon as news of the licence issue emerged and no pilots with Pakistan-issued licences were currently flying for the airline.


Vietnam Airlines and Bamboo Airways were not using any pilots from Pakistan, the CAAV said.


Vietnamese airlines currently have 1,260 pilots, with nearly half of them holding foreign citizenship, according to the CAAV.

Vietnam grounds Pakistani pilots over licence concerns

----------


## reddog

Reuters was reporting Boeing and the FAA are about to test the 737MAX.
testing scripted mid-air scenarios such as steep banking turns and also trigger the
reprogrammed stall prevention software known as MCAS faulted in both crashes.
Bet the test pilots have their rings closed tighter than a Scotchmans man purse when they try
the full aerodynamic stall.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Reuters was reporting Boeing and the FAA are about to test the 737MAX.
> testing scripted mid-air scenarios such as steep banking turns and also trigger the
> reprogrammed stall prevention software known as MCAS faulted in both crashes.
> Bet the test pilots have their rings closed tighter than a Scotchmans man purse when they try
> the full aerodynamic stall.



Fucking magic. If the virus doesn't get you, Boeing will.

----------


## OhOh

*U.S. regulator, Boeing complete 737 MAX certification test flights*


_"The Federal Aviation Administration and Boeing Co (BA.N)  have completed certification test flights on the 737 MAX, a key  milestone toward the planes return to service, the U.S. regulator said  on Wednesday. 

__The MAX has been grounded since March 2019 after two fatal crashes in five months killed 346 people. 
_
_The FAA said it must still evaluate data from the three days of testing and has other tasks to complete. 
_
_The  agency is following a deliberate process and will take the time it  needs to thoroughly review Boeings work, the FAA said. We will lift  the grounding order only after FAA safety experts are satisfied that the  aircraft meets certification standards. 
_
_Boeing declined to comment, saying it would defer to the FAA statement._ 

_The  tests of Boeings proposed changes to the automated flight control  system on the aircraft are a pivotal moment in the companys worst-ever  corporate crisis. The FAA must complete the data review, approve new  pilot training procedures, among other steps, and is unlikely to approve  the planes ungrounding until mid-September, Reuters reported this  week. 

__If that happens, the jet is on a path to resume U.S. service before year-end, in a process plagued by delays."

U.S. regulator, Boeing complete 737 MAX certification test flights - Reuters
_
When with the other regulators have boing boing perform all their own certification test flights?

----------


## klong toey

Feck they made a lot of mistakes before the crash.Starts about 4 minutes into the podcast.
AvTalk - Aviation Podcast - AvTalk Episode 88: 262 out of 860 | Listen via Stitcher for Podcasts

----------


## harrybarracuda

Oops. Hope no-one is waiting for refunds or has vouchers.




> Malaysian budget carrier AirAsia's future is in "significant doubt" due to the collapse in demand for air travel caused by coronavirus, its auditor warns.


AirAsia's future in doubt due to virus

----------


## Shutree

> Anyway, whilst we are here, is anyone opening a book on which airlines will collapse and when?
> 
> My bet is that AirAsia will not be flying before the end of 2020.


The clock is ticking.

I hope they don't go bust, I am still waiting on my refund ....

----------


## PlanK

The first of a dozen Qantas A380s has landed at the airliner graveyard at the Southern California Logistics Airport in the High Desert, US.The Australian long-haul airline is parking its A380 Airbus fleet at the Victorville airport while its international flying is in hiatus while many in the airline industry are asking whether the A380s will ever leave the graveyard again

----------


## AntRobertson

Qantas cancels all international flights until March 2021 - NZ Herald

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Qantas cancels all international flights until March 2021 - NZ Herald


That's good news. OK Bali, now get your shit together.

----------


## harrybarracuda

They haven't even managed to shut down Saudi pirating BeIn Sports, so fuck knows how much use this will be.




> United Nations Sides With Qatar Over Airspace Blockade Case
> 
> 
> In June 2018, the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) ruled it had jurisdiction to handle a dispute brought by the State of Qatar, which accused its neighbors of breaching an international convention governing international aviation. The International Court of Justice (ICJ) has today rejected an appeal regarding this issue by Bahrain, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates. 
> 
> 
> The appealing nations felt that the ICAO was not the right group to judge in the dispute. They expressed that the issues at hand went beyond civil aviation. Nonetheless, The Seattle Times reports that the United Nations’ top court has ordered in Qatar’s favor. This decision opens up the door for the ICAO to be able to rule in Qatar’s case.
> 
> 
> ...


United Nations Sides With Qatar Over Airspace Blockade Case - Simple Flying

----------


## lom

> They haven't even managed to shut down Saudi pirating BeIn Sports, so fuck knows how much use this will be.


Somehow I doubt that is a task for United Nations, the International Civil Aviation Organization, or the International Court of Justice

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Somehow I doubt that is a task for United Nations, the International Civil Aviation Organization, or the International Court of Justice


Alright you fucker, what did you do?!

 :rofl: 





> July 15, 2020
> 
> DUBAI (Reuters) — Saudi Arabia’s General Authority for Competition (GAC) said on Tuesday it had permanently canceled the license of Qatari broadcaster beIN Sports, which has been barred from broadcasting in the kingdom since mid-2017 due to a dispute with Qatar.
> GAC said in a statement it was also fining beIN Sports 10 million riyals (US$2.7 million) for what it said were “monopolistic practices”, a charge the broadcaster denied.


Saudi Arabia permanently cancels license of Qatar's beIN Sports - Egypt Independent

----------


## harrybarracuda

If it's a Boeing, I'm not fucking going...




> British Airways' iconic 747 jumbo jet will no longer be operated by the airline after it decided to retire its entire fleet with immediate effect.
> 
> BA has used the famous Boeing plane since 1989 and is currently the world's biggest operator of the 747-400 model.
> 
> It was planning to retire the fleet of 31 aircraft in 2024 but its end has been hastened by the coronavirus lockdown, which has forced long-haul air travel to almost grind to a halt.
> 
> The decision marks the end of an era for the double-decker jumbo within UK airlines, given that Virgin Atlantic had already announced it was to scrap its remaining 747s.
> 
> The airline operated the plane, powered to a top speed of 614mph by four Rolls-Royce engines, to destinations in China, the US, Canada and Africa.
> ...


British Airways scrapping entire 747 fleet amid coronavirus downturn | UK News | Sky News

----------


## Troy

^  BA have used 747s since they were first formed in the early 70s. I guess the article is referring to first use of 747-400 series, which would be around 1989. The 747 classics (2,3,4 series) have always been my favourite aircraft. An absolute pleasure and money maker for me.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Going on strike when you've been fired.

Cool move, that will rattle them.




> ICELANDAIR SACKS ALL ITS CABIN CREW AND SAYS SPARE PILOTS MUST LOOK AFTER PASSENGERS
> 
> Union says the airlines position and attitude in the matter is a disgrace
> 
> From Monday, every crew member on every Icelandair flight will be a pilot.
> 
> The Icelandic national airline been negotiating with the Icelandic Cabin Crew Association (Flugfreyjufelag Islands/FFI) for months over new contracts in response to the coronavirus pandemic.
> 
> In June, the two sides signed a five-year agreement that, according to Icelandair, involved increasing productivity and flexibility.
> ...


Icelandair sacks all its cabin crew and says spare pilots must look after passengers | The Independent

----------


## OhOh

_First they came for the Cabin Crew
I was not Cabin Crew
Then they came for the Baggage Handlers
I was not a Baggage Handler_
_Then then came for the Aircraft Maintenance Staff
I was not  Aircraft Maintenance Staff
 Then then came for the Pilot Testing Examiners
I was not_ _a Pilot Testing Examiner 
Then they changes our uniforms
Mine was non discriminatory yellow overall with a pink pinafore
Then they changed our stop over 5* hotels to airbnb
Then my plane crashed ...._

----------


## harrybarracuda

Well done Icelandair.

The trolley dollies caved in and came back to the table.

Now they're going to vote again on 27th July.

----------


## David48atTD

Qantas's last passenger jumbo jet, the Boeing 747, has  departed Australia for the final time, with the "Queen of the Skies"  leaving one last flourish  drawing a kangaroo over the Pacific Ocean.

*Key points:*
The Boeing 747 was decommissioned amid COVID-19 disruptionThe last flight departed Sydney bound for a Los Angeles boneyard todayQantas CEO Alan Joyce said it had seen the highs and lows of history 




Flight QF7474 flew out from Sydney Airport on Wednesday afternoon and provided entertainment to hundreds of plane spotters   :Smile: 

The  jumbo jet is headed to retirement in the Mojave Desert in the United  States, after Qantas brought forward the scheduled retirement of the  fleet by six months due to the COVID-19 pandemic.

*The last Qantas Boeing 747 leaves a flourish in the sky as it says goodbye to Australia - ABC News*

----------


## jabir

> The first of a dozen Qantas A380s has landed at the airliner graveyard at the Southern California Logistics Airport in the High Desert, US.The Australian long-haul airline is parking its A380 Airbus fleet at the Victorville airport while its international flying is in hiatus while many in the airline industry are asking whether the A380s will ever leave the graveyard again


Never flown in an Airbus, and just as well with good safety record but only one still in commercial service after 13 years while the others head for the desert to be recycled. 

Reduced travel due to the virus, or simply not viable being too big with many empty seats?

----------


## OhOh

^
Costs/passenger mile have been superseded by newer planes, mostly 2 engines now and airline routing choices. Hub collection and consolidation v point to point.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Never flown in an Airbus


You mean A380 surely?

Splendid aircraft, the ride is as smooth as a baby's bum, and the upstairs front cabins generally luxurious.

But they are a victim of technology, as newer, single deck, wide bodied aircraft are significantly more economical these days.

----------


## David48atTD

> You mean A380 surely?
> 
> Splendid aircraft,


I would, one day, like to fly in the A380.

Even better, turning left (or is that up?) as I enter  :Smile:

----------


## Shutree

Not sure that this is news exactly but it was news to me today that NokAir just cancelled the gf's flight from DMK to UTH on Sunday, August 2nd. She has an exam in Bangkok that afternoon and needs to be back at work on Monday morning. She only booked the flight a couple of days ago. Of course, they don't want to offer a refund, only a coupon.

This feels close to fraud. Advertise flights, sell tickets, cancel flights, keep the money.

----------


## Shutree

> This feels close to fraud. Advertise flights, sell tickets, cancel flights, keep the money.


Still not news, maybe it should be if a good investigative journalist grabbed hold of it.

The gf has to return to Udon on Sunday evening. No choice. NokAir cancelled and the only other flight is AirAsia. Now a snip at B1,900 plus change. I am writing my long-awaited first book with the working title The Shutree Conjecture. Of course it is fiction and because the film rights are important I need to sex it up a bit. The plot outline is:

Airline One and Airline Two appear to be fierce competitors in low cost air travel, but there are too few customers post-Covid. They face ruin.
CEOs One and Two meet, mafioso style, in a private room at an exclusive nightclub and hatch a plan to cut costs whilst increasing revenues.
On routes where they compete, both will sell tickets then, at an agreed time, One will cancel and refuse cash refunds, Two will immediately double prices that day to gouge customers. This means only two flights instead of four, saving money, whilst trebling their cash flows. 
On other days and other routes they reverse roles.
There is only a tiny risk that the public will perceive a pattern or that the authorities will investigate. In either case: deny, deny, deny.
In the real world the poor stay poor and the rich get richer. 
In my fictional account it all falls apart when the stunning hostess who is bedding both CEOs figures out the conspiracy and is suddenly vengeful when she discovers other love interests in their lives. So she teams up with the CEOs' equally stunning and resentful PAs to gather the data that will bring them down. Unfortunately, the powers to whom she presents her dossier are not independent and the final scenes involve tragic accidents and a missing dossier.

I can feel Hollywood clamouring for the rights.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> I would, one day, like to fly in the A380.
> 
> Even better, turning left (or is that up?) as I enter


You should try Doha airport. They have a separate airbridge for the premium cabins so you don't have to weave your way through all those unwashed tourists in cattle class.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Still not news, maybe it should be if a good investigative journalist grabbed hold of it.
> 
> The gf has to return to Udon on Sunday evening. No choice. NokAir cancelled and the only other flight is AirAsia. Now a snip at B1,900 plus change.


Do the T&Cs on the ticket not say they must make a best effort to get you to your destination, or do these cheapy airlines leave that bit out?

----------


## OhOh

*FAA Issues 'Emergency Directive' Over "Airworthiness" Of All Boeing 737s*


_"Having seen a series of hope-filled headlines in recent months on the  progression of Boeing's revival of the 737 MAX (despite and  industry-wide collapse in demand), the airplane-maker suffered a blow  this morning as The FAA issues an "emergency airworthiness  directive" requiring operators of any Boeing 737 passenger jet to  inspect and potentially replace a key engine component, following four reports of unexpected engine shutdowns.

__The FAA's order applies to any 737 that has been in storage, which covers any plane that has not been flown in a week. Operators will be required to inspect and potentially replace a certain valve that can get stuck in the open position.
_
_The FAA said it had four recent reports of engines shutting down because of that stuck valve condition._
_"Corrosion of these valves on both engines could result in a dual-engine power loss without the ability to restart. This condition, if not addressed, could result in compressor stalls and dual-engine power loss without the ability to restart, which could result in a forced off-airport landing," the directive indicated."
_FAA Issues 'Emergency Directive' Over "Airworthiness" Of All Boeing 737s | Zero Hedge

"Forced off-airport landing" sounds awfully like crashing into the ground/sea.

----------


## harrybarracuda

It's OK though, it doesn't apply to the 737 MAX........





Oh.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Len McLuskey ever the clueless wanker.

[QUOTE]


> British Airways faces strike action after a trade union warned it will move towards industrial action with immediate effect.
> 
> Len McCluskey, general secretary of Unite, claimed the airline has published a timetable to fire and rehire thousands of workers on August 7.
> 
> In a letter to British Airways chief executive Alex Cruz, Mr McCluskey pledged to work every hour between now and then to convince you not to do so.
> 
> 
> British Airways owner IAG announced in April that it would cut up to 12,000 jobs due to the reduction in flights caused by the coronavirus pandemic.
> 
> ...


British Airways facing immediate strike threat - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

----------


## misskit

*Nok Air determined to carry on after filing court rehabilitation plan*

Nok Air chairman Prasert Boonsamphan has assured that the Thai airline is determined to carry on operating, after the Central Bankruptcy Court accepted the company’s business rehabilitation plan yesterday.


He told the media today that the filing of the plan is the best way for the company to resolve its liquidity problem, under the supervision of the court, so that its operations can continue.
He assured that the company has no intention to cease operations, to fold or to end up bankrupt, but is as determined as ever to continue working back to prosperity.


Mr. Prasert explained that the company’s liquidity problem has been caused by several factors, among them the COVID-19 pandemic, which has had serious impacts on businesses the world over, including Nok Air.


He believes that, by applying for rehabilitation under the supervision of the Central Bankruptcy Court, Nok Air will be able to resolve its problems and resume normal operations in the future.


The initial approach of the rehabilitation plan, said Mr. Prasert, is to restructure the company’s debt, in a way which ensures fairness to all parties concerned, and is in line with the company’s ability to pay.


He is confident that the rehabilitation plan will be in place before the COVID-19 pandemic is effectively contained.


Nok Air has proposed Grant Thornton Specialist Advisory Services Company and the company’s board of directors, namely Messrs. Prinya Waiwattana, Tai Song-ee, Kasemsant Veerakul, Wutthipo

Nok Air determined to carry on after filing court rehabilitation plan – Thai PBS World

----------


## Norton

> Mr. Prasert explained that the company’s liquidity problem has been caused by several factors, among them the COVID-19 pandemic, which has had serious impacts on businesses the world over, including Nok Air.


Nok Air never was competive but yes the vurus hasn't helped. Bailout is just prolonging the end. Not good.

Stock price: NOK (BKK) THB 0.72 -0.12 (-14.29%)

----------


## bowie

Not really airline news - more of a spot-on public service announcement. 

For our frequent fliers, and, not so frequent fliers - compliments of a friend...

----------


## OhOh

Top Post.

----------


## harrybarracuda

To paraphrase Royston Vasey:

"I always get a seat at the rear of the aircraft. You never hear of a plane backing into a fucking mountain, do you?".

----------


## harrybarracuda

*British Airways pilots accept pay cuts of up to 20% and 270 job losses in deal with airline that also prevents controversial ‘fire and rehire’ scheme*British Airline Pilots Association said its members voted by 85 per cent in favourThere will be around 270 redundancies and temporary pay cuts starting at 20% Pay cuts will reduce to 8% over two years before falling to zero over longer term 
​
British Airways pilots accept pay cuts of up to 20% and 270 job losses in deal with airline | Daily Mail Online

----------


## tomcat

*The World’s Jumbo Jets Are Heading for the Boneyard*

Covid-19 is pulling the final plug on the 747 and A380. Many will never fly again.

By David Fickling
August 1, 2020, 7:00 AM GMT+7


Into the sunset. Photographer: aviation-images.com/Getty

The queens of the skies have fallen on hard times.

As Covid-19 has frozen the international travel on which they once thrived, double-decker, four-engine planes like the Airbus SE A380 and Boeing Co. 747 are more likely to be found in storage than soaring through the skies.

Carriers such as Pan Am Corp. used the 747 to turn aviation into a global industry in the 1970s, and over the past decade Emirates used the A380 to repeat the trick for the global south — but those times have passed. Since mid-March, most have barely flown except on short hops to maintain pilots’ certifications and valedictory voyages to gather dust in desert boneyards.

Many of those furloughs look like becoming permanent. IAG SA’s British Airways has announced plans to ground the largest fleet of 747-400s for good. Qantas Airways Ltd. sent its last 747 home to the U.S. last week, and has already suspended its stable of A380s.

Among the 15 operators of the A380, which entered service less than 13 years ago, only Emirates has been operating flights in anything close to a normal fashion, according to data from aircraft-tracking site Flightradar24. Out of its 115 such planes — about half the global fleet — just a dozen have been flying to and from Europe over the past month or so, as limited traffic has trickled back. China Southern Airlines Co. has also been running a limited service with its five A380s.

However, the vast majority of the planes — worth some $50 billion, if valued at about half of their list prices — have been stuck on the tarmac, possibly permanently. Qatar Airways QCSC has speculated that its A380s may never return, while Deutsche Lufthansa AG has made similar noises.

By the time the long-haul routes for which the A380 was designed return to normal in 2024 or so, about half the fleet will be at least a decade old and well on the way toward retirement. Singapore Airlines Ltd., the biggest operator after Emirates, said in first-quarter results that it may write down “older generation aircraft” such as its A380s by around $1 billion.

It’s a similar picture with the 747. Of the 29 planes operated by Lufthansa — the largest passenger fleet, once British Airways’ jets have retired — just four have remained in regular operation since March, with a further four gradually returning to service over the past two months.

Probably the most active operator of passenger 747s at this point is Aeroflot PJSC’s Rossiya Airlines, plus a handful of charter operators that run seasonal flights to holiday destinations and pilgrimage services to Saudi Arabia. Even there, though, foreign pilgrims at this year’s hajj will be confined to 10,000 people already in the country.
The reasons for the decline of these jets aren’t hard to discern. Even at the best of times, it can be challenging to fill more than 400 seats at a time, and a plane with more than 20% of seats empty will typically lose money — and that’s before you start thinking about the costs of providing crew and destination accommodation for such vast aircraft.

With the Boeing 787 and Airbus A350 able to achieve similar ranges using just two engines and smaller cabins, the economics of double-decker planes no longer make a lot of sense.

U.S. airlines in particular have long since given up on the jumbo. They never bought a single A380, and last took delivery of a 747 a few months after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, when Northwest Airlines Corp. bought two before later going bankrupt and being taken over by Delta Air Lines Inc.

There’s one area that’s been booming, however: freight. Air cargo typically takes up a substantial share of the belly space on passenger flights, but with borders closed to tourism, the semiconductors, high-value materials and consumer goods that typically travel beneath your feet have had to find a new route to market. Cargo traffic this year will be down just 17% from a year earlier, compared to 55% for passenger flights, according to the International Air Transport Association.

That could provide a final chapter for the 747 — although not for the A380, which isn’t easily converted to cargo usage. Boeing’s jumbo is already a freight aircraft in all but name, with about two-thirds of the latest 747-800 variant being sold to freight carriers such as United Parcel Service Inc. and Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd.’s logistics arm. Even non-cargo aircraft can get in on the act: KLM has been carrying face masks and protective gowns on the seats of ordinary passenger aircraft pressed into pandemic freight service.

That would be an appropriate end for grand planes often likened to ocean liners. Some of the most celebrated ships of the great age of sea transport ended their lives as coal hulks, quarantine centers and floating museums after aircraft rendered them obsolete. The ultimate fate of jumbo jets may be similarly prosaic: As workaday aircraft, shipping goods to a more home-bound global population.

https://www.bloomberg.com/asia?sref=eqvgPRs0

----------


## harrybarracuda

Prolly explains why Boeing will stop making them in 2022.

----------


## harrybarracuda

The FAA are still giving the flying coffin a chance to take the air again.




> Four Boeing 737 MAX Design Changes Eyed By The FAA
> 
> The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) proposed a new Airworthiness Directive yesterday that targets Boeings besieged 737 MAXs. The new proposal from the FAA addresses what it calls the unsafe condition on the Boeing 737-8 and 737-9 MAX aircraft.
> 
> In October 2018, a Lion Air 737-8 MAX crashed after takeoff in Jakarta, Indonesia, killing 189 people. Six months later, an Ethiopian Airlines 737-8 MAX crashed after takeoff from Addis Ababa Bole International Airport. This resulted in 157 deaths.
> 
> Shortly after, MAX fleets around the world stopped flying and remain grounded. The FAA has been investigating ever since. Yesterday, the FAA released a document that stated:
> 
> _ if a single erroneously high AOA sensor input is received by the flight control system, the maneuvering characteristics augmentation system (MCAS) can command repeated airplane nose-down trim of the horizontal stabilizer. This unsafe condition, if not addressed, could cause the flight crew to have difficulty controlling the airplane, and lead to excessive airplane nose-down attitude, significant altitude loss, and impact with terrain._
> ...


Four Boeing 737 MAX Design Changes Eyed By The FAA - Simple Flying

----------


## Fondles

If the rear facing seats are the safest why don't they turn all the seats around ?

----------


## tomcat

> If the rear facing seats are the safest why don't they turn all the seats around ?


...bad optics...

----------


## Troy

...and cost.

Some military aircraft have backward facing.

----------


## harrybarracuda

"Naked company Greed". They just lost four billion quid in six months, and that is WITH the government paying furloughed staff. These fucking union wankers are utterly clueless, it seems a lot of staff have ignored them.

Still at least the fat old tarts aren't claiming BASSA runs the airline now.




> More than 10,000 workers at British Airways are currently being made redundant, on a day unions at the airline have dubbed Black Friday.
> 
> British Airways said on Friday that that around 6,000 staff have applied for voluntary redundancy, while union Unite has said that a further 4,000 workers are being forced out.
> 
> Noting that the consultation process was ongoing, the airline said it was not in a position to confirm the total number of redundancies. But unions said that staff were told to either accept a voluntary redundancy package or to risk losing their jobs by applying for new roles with lower pay.
> 
> Just two-thirds of cabin crew workers are expected to be retained at the airline as part of the process.
> 
> British Airways has told its senior cabin crew that they will have to change their working patterns and take a 20% cut in their basic pay if they are rehired.
> ...


Black Friday at British Airways as 10,000 workers lose jobs

----------


## harrybarracuda

*Kerala plane crash: Air India plane breaks in two at Calicut runway*


An Air India Express plane with 191 people on board has crashed at an airport in the southern state of Kerala, officials say.
The aircraft, en route from Dubai, skidded off the runway and broke in two at Calicut airport upon landing, India's aviation authority said.
Rescue operations are under way, with emergency services at the scene.
At least two people, including the pilot, have died, the BBC has been told.
Several passengers are injured, a spokesman for the airline said.
The airline said there were 184 passengers - including 10 children and seven crew members, of which two were pilots - on board flight IX-1344 when it crashed at Calicut, also known as Kozhikode.
The Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) said the plane fell into a valley and broke in two after skidding off the end of the runway. Images carried by Indian media show the aircraft broken in two pieces.

Kerala plane crash: Air India plane breaks in two at Calicut runway - BBC News

----------


## Shutree

*AirAsia secures RM1bil financing*AirAsia secures RM1bil financing | The Star


Maybe they can give me my refund now. 555

----------


## OhOh

*Boeing's 2020 MAX cancellations near 400 in July*


_"Boeing Co (BA.N)  lost another 43 orders for its grounded 737 MAX planes in July,  bringing the total cancellations for the jet this year to 398, while  delivering only four of its other aircraft to customers, monthly numbers  showed on Tuesday._ _Based on a tighter accounting standard,  Boeing said order cancellations now stand at 857 for the MAX, whose  recertification is still hanging in the balance more than a year after  its worldwide grounding due to two fatal crashes. 
_
_The four  deliveries - one each of 767 and 777 freighters and two 787 Dreamliners -  were down from 19 a year earlier, taking the total to 74 planes so far  this year. Boeing delivered a record 806 aircraft in the whole of 2018,  before the 737 MAX crisis erupted.  
_
_Airlines  pay most of the purchase price when they take delivery of an aircraft,  so the lack of deliveries is a direct hit to a planemaker’s revenue. _ 
_
Boeing  did not win any new orders in July and its cancellations include 35  previously scratched orders for the 737 MAX by Dublin-based aircraft  lessor AerCap Holdings (AER.N) and Kuwaiti aircraft leasing company Alafco. 
_
_Fresh  737 MAX cancellations last month were by Canada Jetlines, which struck  off five orders, Avolon scrapped two orders and a business jet customer  canceled one order. 
_
_Additionally,  Boeing removed nine 737 MAX airplanes from its backlog to adjust for  jets ordered in previous years but unlikely to be delivered currently._ 
_On  an adjusted basis, a total of 52 more planes were canceled last month,  bringing lost orders to 836 for the year as of July end. The company’s  gross orders, without cancellations, were 59 planes in the first seven  months of 2020. "

Boeing's 2020 MAX cancellations near 400 in July - Reuters
_
*Rolls-Royce finds cracks in small number of Trent XWB engines*


"Britain’s Rolls-Royce (RR.L)  will carry out extra inspections on some of its Trent XWB engines after  cracks were found on a small number of them, in a further headache for  the company whose finances have been hit hard by the pandemic. 

Rolls-Royce sought to reassure investors and airline customers on  Tuesday that the issue on some XWB engines, which powers the Airbus (AIR.PA) A350 plane, would not cause significant disruption for carriers or material cost. 

Sources close to the matter said that the cost to Rolls  would be in the low to mid tens of millions of pounds.  

That  makes it much less severe than the Trent 1000 issues, where problematic  turbine blades on the engine which powers the Boeing (BA.N) 787 are set to cost the company 2.4 billion pounds ($3.1 billion) to fix over the 2017-2023 period. 

The  cost of fixing that problem comes as the pandemic heaps pressure on the  company’s finances. It is looking at options to strengthen its balance  sheet after planes stopped flying, cutting the revenues it receives from  flying-hours. 

Rolls  said wear on the Trent XWB-84 engine will be subject to an  Airworthiness Directive from regulator EASA, which is expected to be  published on Wednesday. 

The company pre-emptively issued its statement to address “potential speculation”. 

Morgan  Stanley analysts said that there was a high degree of sensitivity  around the XWB given that the engine is important to Rolls’s future  value, but its assessment was that the issues were not a major concern  and it called them “benign”. 

Shares in Rolls traded up 3% to 273 pence at 1109 GMT. The stock recently hit its lowest level for 11 years.  

Rolls  said that routine inspections had found the wear in one or two blades  of the Intermediate Pressure Compressor in a small number of XWB engines  which have been in service four to five years.  

It  said there were 100 such engines in service. None of the engines had  experienced any abnormal in-flight operations and the issue had not been  found on younger engines.  "

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-r...KCN25714M?il=0

----------


## harrybarracuda

Just heard from a mate who retired from the sandpit recently, and had an Emirates flight to Brisbane in Business class.

Apparently they took out all but 24 economy seats and made the rest First.

He had to pay $7500 US one way.

That's the sort of stunt the Thais would pull.

 :rofl:

----------


## harrybarracuda

Well that's a surprise I must say.

*



Probe 'points to graft' in THAI A340 aircraft deal

Some employees of Thai Airways International (THAI) became unusually rich from a major plane procurement deal struck in 2003-2004, according to a police-led investigation team set up by the Transport Ministry.
The conclusion was drawn after the team led by Pol Lt Gen Charnthep Sesaves, a former Metropolitan Police Bureau commissioner, completed its investigation, Deputy Transport Minister Thaworn Senneam said on Thursday.


Probe 'points to graft' in THAI A340 aircraft deal
*

----------


## OhOh

> An Air India Express plane


_"The Boeing 737, en route from Dubai,"_

Kerala plane crash: 18 dead after Air India plane breaks in two at Calicut - BBC News

----------


## harrybarracuda

> _"The Boeing 737, en route from Dubai,"_
> 
> Kerala plane crash: 18 dead after Air India plane breaks in two at Calicut - BBC News


Does it surprise you that Dubai has an airport HooHoo?

----------


## OhOh

I hope not, IIRC, I transited through it. Front end Emirates 380's, BKK to LGW and return.

----------


## harrybarracuda

It's just that I'm wondering why you quoted that particular point. Is it supposed to mean something?

----------


## OhOh

> Is it supposed to mean something?


Your initial TD report did not identify the plane as a 373. 




> The aircraft, en route from Dubai, skidded  off the runway and broke in two at Calicut airport upon landing,  India's aviation authority said


Although in the original BBC article you quoted:

 The exact sentence was:

_"The Boeing 737, en route from Dubai, skidded off the runway in rain and  broke in two after landing at Calicut airport, aviation officials said."

_White similar, Yellow edited, 


> Kerala plane crash: Air India plane breaks in two at Calicut runway - BBC News


Who has been editing?

The BBC has not published it edited the article.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Your initial TD report did not identify the plane as a 373.


Well that's not really surprising is it?

Did you read the link?

Retard.

----------


## klong toey

Five things to know about Thai Airways' rehabilitation
Troubled carrier faces bumpy road, even if court approves process next month
Five things to know about Thai Airways' rehabilitation -
                Nikkei Asian Review

----------


## harrybarracuda

I know it says "entire fleet" and then expands this to "entire Boeing 777 fleet" which is a completely different thing. It has 80 or 90 short haul aircraft. But still, that is a depressing long term view.




> Hit hard by the coronavirus pandemic, Air New Zealand has decided to ground its entire fleet for a year at least, according to local media.
> 
> Air New Zealand said it is grounding its entire Boeing 777 fleet until September 2021 due to the ongoing impact of COVID-19, newshub.com.nz reported on Thursday.
> 
> In March, the state airlines decided to cut 3,750 jobs, nearly 30% of its 12,500-strong workforce.
> 
> New Zealand has 1,792 coronavirus cases, including 120 active cases and 39 imported as well as 24 fatalities.
> 
> The pandemic has hit the countrys economy, badly affecting businesses.
> ...


Coronavirus: Air New Zealand grounds entire fleet

----------


## crackerjack101

The Honest Pre-flight Safety Demonstration. Not the one the air lines how you   :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

Oh my word. They should really be taking an arse-reaming for that.




> Two fatal crashes of Boeing 737 Max aircraft were partly due to the plane-maker's unwillingness to share technical details, a congressional investigation has found.
> 
> It blames a "culture of concealment" at Boeing, but says the regulatory system was also "fundamentally flawed".
> Boeing said it had "learned many hard lessons" from the accidents.
> 
> But families of the victims accused the company and the regulator of continuing to hide information.
> 
> The US report is highly critical of both Boeing and the regulator, the Federal Aviation Authority (FAA).
> 
> ...


Boeing's 'culture of concealment' to blame for 737 crashes - BBC News

----------


## PlanK

Air Asia is branching out to make ends meet:




It's terrible, would not recommend a listen.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> It's terrible, would not recommend a listen.


Maybe you could set it to a Youtube dog walking video.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Now you can check if your flight is on a flying coffin.




> The British Airline Pilots' Association (BALPA) has told American aviation regulators that the Boeing 737 Max needs better fixes for its infamous MCAS software, warning that a plane crash which killed 149 people could happen again.
> Airlines, in contrast, are broadly happy with proposed changes to the Boeing 737 Max, even as trade unions bellow at the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) that more needs to be done.
> In public comments submitted to the FAA's notice of proposed rulemaking (NPRM), BALPA warned that one of the proposed workarounds for a future MCAS failure could lead to a repeat of the crash of Ethiopian Airlines flight ET302.
> MCAS  Manoeuvring Characteristics Augmentation System  is a software system intended to counteract the effect of hanging bigger and more powerful engines off the Boeing 737 airframe. The new engines gave the airliner different flying characteristics from previous models. With Boeing relying on regulators certifying the 737 Max as an incremental advance rather than a whole new design, MCAS was necessary to get it through FAA certification without regulators imposing expensive training requirements on the new aircraft before pilots could fly it.
> The NPRM, published here, proposes various fixes to the 737 Max design, its software and procedures for pilots to follow in the event of a problem. One of those procedures includes disabling the airliner's automatic trim system, operated by MCAS when the software kicks in, and having the two pilots use a manual backup trim wheel instead of the aircraft's powerful electric motors.
> BALPA said: "Requiring both crew members to turn the trim wheel simultaneously in a non-normal scenario is extremely undesirable and goes against all philosophies of having one pilot fly and one run the QRH [quick reference handbook: reading out the emergency checklist]. No flight control system should require both pilots to operate it at any stage, let alone in an emergency."
> The trade union added: "It is felt that this should be reconsidered (particularly in light of the smaller diameter trim wheel as fitted to the MAX to enable the new larger screens to fit, and as per the scenario observed in the Ethiopian Airlines accident).
> ET302 crashed after its pilots, who were fully aware of MCAS after the earlier crash of Lion Air flight 610 (the first 737 Max crash), tried without success to override the flawed software system. MCAS works by automatically trimming the 737 Max's nose downwards if it senses that the aircraft is about to stall, a dangerous condition that normally comes about when the nose is pointing too high and the speed is too low. In ET302's case that MCAS activation was false, however.
> Its pilots disabled electric trim motors that had been activated by MCAS and, crash investigators believed, tried to use the manual trim wheel in the cockpit to physically undo what the software had done  following Boeing procedures published after the Lion Air crash. Thanks to the aircraft's excessive speed, built up as MCAS forced its nose to point downwards at the ground, the pilots were unsuccessful. Aerodynamic forces on the control surfaces made it impossible for them to rotate the trim wheel and point the airliner's nose back at the sky.
> ...


https://www.theregister.com/2020/09/...max_faa_balpa/

----------


## misskit

*OCPB helping customers receive refunds on canceled flights*

BANGKOK(NNT)-In response to flight cancellations due to the COVID-19 situation, many customers have received refunds from airlines, thanks to the Office of the Consumer Protection Board (OCPB), as the agency is following up on related legal issues.


The Prime Minister’s Office Minister, Anucha Nakasai, who oversees the OCPB, today attended the 6th OCPB meeting of 2020. The meeting discussed consumer complaints about airlines, after their flights were canceled because of the pandemic.


Mr. Anucha said after the meeting that the OCPB had held discussions with airline operators regarding refunds, while representing consumers in legal action. He also delivered his work policy to the OCPB and urged the agency to work more proactively and to exercise Section 21 to help speed up the investigation of consumer complaints.


In 2019, the OCPB was able to help more than 10,000 consumers receive refunds worth over 100 million baht in total.

National News Bureau Of Thailand

----------


## Backspin

Short documentary report on 2013 intentional plane crash. There are some fuct up individuals in this world.. This was before the depressed queer kraut crashed the GermanWings place in the same manner.

This incident just never made international news. If it did, then the GermanWings crash could have been avoided

----------


## harrybarracuda

If you thought the flights to nowhere were silly, try Singapore Airlines.

They are going to charge you for eating on the plane without it even leaving the ground.

Singapore Airlines To Launch Stationary A380 Plane Restaurant - Simple Flying

----------


## docmartin

Airline food in cramped seating - where do I sign ?

----------


## harrybarracuda

Hungry Antonov munches UK America's Cup hull.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Should be an exhilarating sight tinged with an element of sadness.

"It was like landing a block of flats from the 2nd floor" indeed.




> LONDON (Reuters)  British Airways will bid farewell to its final London-based Boeing 747s on Thursday with a rare synchronised dual take off for the Queen of the Skies, the jet which brought long-haul flights to the masses.
> 
> Once the worlds largest operator of the 747, BA has now retired its entire jumbo jet fleet after the COVID-19 pandemic curtailed most air travel, accelerating the move to more fuel-efficient planes.
> 
> Chief Executive Alex Cruz said it would be a difficult day for everybody at British Airways as the aircraft leaves our home at Heathrow for the very last time.
> 
> For over 50 years, the 747 has been the worlds most easily recognised jetliner with its humped fuselage, four engines and 16 main wheels.
> 
> It took its maiden flight in 1969 and soon secured its place in history as the jet which allowed more affordable air travel due its size and range.
> ...


BA's jumbos bid farewell with rare dual take off for 'Queen of the Skies' - Metro US

----------


## harrybarracuda

> _British Airways will bid farewell to its final London-based Boeing 747s on Thursday with a rare synchronised dual take off for the “Queen of the Skies”, the jet which brought long-haul flights to the masses._


They lied. They took off one after the other.

Disappointing.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Tit? Tit you say? Have some Tat!




> BRUSSELS/PARIS/WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The European Union on Tuesday won the right to impose tariffs on $4 billion of U.S. goods in retaliation against subsidies for planemaker Boeing BA.N - deepening a record trade spat that has already prompted Washington to slap duties on EU imports.




EU wins tariff clearance on $4 billion of U.S. imports in Boeing case | Reuters

----------


## pseudolus

Boeing had 161,000 employees at the start of the year. WIthin a few months they will be reduced to 20,000. This is from my mate who is rather high up in Boeing. The Subsidies are not being used to keep people off of the streets and in work.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Airlines won't be able to fill the aircraft they've already got for the foreseeable future.

Why would they buy new ones?

----------


## lom

> Airlines won't be able to fill the aircraft they've already got for the foreseeable future.
> 
> Why would they buy new ones?


and if they would, would they then buy the Boeing 737MCAS?

----------


## Troy

> Boeing had 161,000 employees at the start of the year. WIthin a few months they will be reduced to 20,000. This is from my mate who is rather high up in Boeing. The Subsidies are not being used to keep people off of the streets and in work.


Are you sure that shouldn't read, Reduced by 20,000? They are down to 145k now.

----------


## pseudolus

> Are you sure that shouldn't read, Reduced by 20,000? They are down to 145k now.


Globally down to 20,000. 

The position is clearly one to get more money and another war. After all, less than 50% of Boeing revenue comes from commercial aircraft.

----------


## HuangLao

Just beginning to understand how systems of Corpocracy work, are we?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Globally down to 20,000. 
> 
> The position is clearly one to get more money and another war. After all, less than 50% of Boeing revenue comes from commercial aircraft.


Nutjob's off his meds again.

----------


## OhOh

> Airlines won't be able to fill the aircraft they've already got for the foreseeable future.
> 
> Why would they buy new ones?


Some have already ordered more economic planes to replace their less viable planes.




> Over a billion people, hundreds of new airports coming online, so the next step


AO was illustrating the Chinese markets potential growth.

To illustrate China's position here is Boeings forecast for new plane  purchase over the next 20 years. It's an annual forecast produced every  year to illustrate the normal Boeing v Airbus competition. 

Airbus have yet to release their annual forecast.

*Pontifications: Boeing’s latest forecast raises more doubt than hope*

Attachment 58762

Attachment 58744
At the top is China, the only individual country that Boeing is forecasting positive new sales growth.

The author of the article suggests Boeing's numbers are somewhat overstated to placate Boeing's shareholders.

_"Demand for new aircraft will not stay depressed permanently – this  is a  certainty. But troubling details in Boeing’s latest forecast make  it  clear the CMO is an aspirational guide, not one for planning."

_The article can be found here for more breakdowns of the forecast details;

Pontifications: Boeing’s latest forecast raises more doubt than hope - Leeham News and Analysis

There are many posts and educated readers discussions at the Leeham site regarding the economics of replacing planes.

Leeham News and Analysis - There's more to real news than a news release.

----------


## Backspin

The Boeing 737 is still a cable and pully aircraft. Its an antique piece of trash that should have been discontinued 20 years ago.

Even the Russians have built a FBW midsized. Boeing should have purchased the MC-21 program from Russia
 :rofl:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Some have already ordered more economic planes to replace their less viable planes.


They did that a long time ago. Now they don't have any money to pay for them.




> *Delta posts $5.4B loss as coronavirus pandemic batters airline industry**Delta's loss compared with a year-ago profit of $1.5B*


Delta posts $5.4B loss as coronavirus pandemic batters airline industry | Fox Business

----------


## harrybarracuda

Almost 5,000 Thai Airways International employees have signed up for the company's early retirement programme, as concerns mount over the airline's ability to reduce its operating costs to match falling revenues.
The scheme had been welcomed by employees, almost 5,000 of whom have applied, the airline's acting president, Chansin Treenuchagron, said on Thursday. Applications for the scheme closed on Oct 28. Employees whose applications were approved will receive severance checks equivalent to 2-14.33 months of pay, depending on their position, in addition to other benefits.
The airline's furlough programme, meanwhile, will run from Nov 1 to April 30. The programmes were among the ailing flagship carrier's efforts to turn its balance sheets around.
Earlier this month, THAI announced that despite the fact that 80% of its 19,000 employees had agreed to pay cuts or go on unpaid leave, the financially-struggling airline only has enough financial reserves to last until December. As of the end of June, the company's debts stood at 332.2 billion baht. Its debt rehabilitation was approved by the bankruptcy court on Sept 14.

Near 5,000 THAI staff to retire early

----------


## harrybarracuda

I missed this. Gosh, they'll just fly off the shelves. What a brilliant time to sell.




> Bankrupt Thai Airways International has put 34 passenger aircraft from its fleet up for sale, hoping to find buyers by Nov 13.
> 
> Aircraft listed on the sale notice posted on its website include 10 Boeing 747-400s manufactured between 1993-2003, six Boeing 777-200s built in 1996-1998, and six Boeing 777-300s manufactured from 1998-2000.
> 
> Others are six Airbus A340-600s built from 2005-2008, three A340-500s that left the production line in 2005-2007, two Boeing 737-400s made in 1992-1993, and one Airbus A300-600 built in 1993.
> 
> The airline said it expected to deliver the planes to buyers by the second quarter of next year. The deadline for those interested in buying the aircraft is Nov 13.
> 
> THAI did not provide other details.The sale is believed to be part of a plan to modernise the fleet.


Thai Airways puts 34 planes up for sale

----------


## harrybarracuda

And there are other bargains to be had.

 :rofl: 

TG Warehouse Sale - Shop | Facebook

----------


## helge

> Boeing 747-400s


I want one



> The deadline for those interested in buying the aircraft is Nov 13.


 :smiley laughing: 

Do they come with cutlery ?

----------


## Klondyke

> Do they come with cutlery ?


Yes, but with a surcharge...

----------


## harrybarracuda

> I want one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do they come with cutlery ?


I expect they'd throw in some of that shit in my second post if you asked nicely.

 :Smile:

----------


## panama hat

30 year old planes . . . 





> Gosh, they'll just fly off the shelves.

----------


## OhOh

*China not yet prepared to let 737 Max fly again*

                                 By LUO WANGSHU in Beijing and AI HEPING in New York |              China Daily Global |             Updated: 2020-11-20 07:22

_"China's civil aviation authority said on Thursday that it has not yet  set a time for the Boeing 737 Max to fly again in China, despite its US  counterpart having given the green light to the jet's operation in the  United States.  On Wednesday, the US Federal Aviation Administration cleared the 737  Max for flight after nearly two years of being grounded following two  crashes that killed 346 people.

The jet was grounded around the world after an Ethiopian Airlines jet  crashed six minutes into its flight from Addis Ababa in March 2019.  That happened less than five months after another Boeing 737 Max flown  by Indonesia's Lion Air plunged into the Java Sea in October 2018.

China, with a fleet of 97 Boeing 737 Max jets, grounded the planes on  March 11, 2019, the first country to do so after the crashes.
  With FAA approval, the first to fly the plane will be American  Airlines, which has scheduled a 737 Max round-trip flight from Miami to  New York's La Guardia Airport on Dec 29. United Airlines expects to  schedule flights on the Max in late January or February.

The FAA approval only covers US domestic flights, operated by  American, United and Southwest Airlines. Flights to or within other  countries, such as China and Canada, will need further approval by their  civil aviation regulators.

Asked when China would lift its grounding order, the Civil Aviation  Administration of China said on Thursday that there has been no change  in its position of late October, when Feng Zhenglin, director of the  administration, said at a news conference that China will ensure there  have been safe and reliable modifications made before considering  allowing the planes back in Chinese airspace.

Before that, he said, three conditions must be met: 

1. Updated designs  must pass airworthiness inspection; 

2. pilots must receive adequate  training for them; 

3. the cause of the crashes must be clear and  modifications made that have proved effective.

Senior Engineer Shu Ping, director of the Aviation Safety Institute  of the Academy of Civil Aviation Science and Technology, said the US  approval is a basis for discussion about China allowing the troubled jet  to carry passengers again.

"But the US FAA's approval does not mean other countries have to follow," Shu said.

Canadian Minister of Transport Marc Garneau said the 737 Max will  stay on the ground until several requirements have been satisfied.

The FAA's approval order stipulates that before the plane can fly,  

the agency must approve pilot training procedures for each US airline  that is operating it; 

planes must be updated with critical software; 

and  its computers must meet FAA specifications.

Investigators discovered that a safety feature meant to prevent the  plane from climbing too fast and stalling had improperly forced the  aircraft's nose down despite pilots' attempts to right it, causing the  crashes.

When the 737 Max, the best-selling plane in Boeing's fleet, does  return to service, it will face an air travel market decimated by the  COVID-19 pandemic."_

China not yet prepared to let 737 Max fly again - World - Chinadaily.com.cn



Important differences in Chinese (passenger safety), ameristani (time is money,) and Canadian (awaiting "advice" from a foreign entity), stated requirements .

----------


## lom

> and Canadian (awaiting "advice" from a foreign entity


Where did you get that from?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> *China not yet prepared to let 737 Max fly again*


But it's going to let its Boeing knock-off take to the air.

 :rofl:

----------


## OhOh

> Where did you get that from?





> 737 Max will stay on the ground until several requirements have been satisfied.


Canada, a UK vassal and an ameristani pawn.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is not to you lom.




The threat:



Am I bovvered by a banana republic peon with no balls, who crawls along the seabed eating algae.?

----------


## harrybarracuda

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand off he waffles because his fairy story is pulled up again.

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## PlanK

There's an app for that.
Or there will be:




> IATA Travel Pass incorporates four open sourced and interoperable modules, which can be combined for an end-to-end solution:
> *Global registry of health requirements*  enables passengers to find accurate information on travel, testing, and eventually vaccine requirements for their journey.*Global registry of testing/vaccination centers*  enables passengers to find testing centers and labs at their departure location which meet the standards for testing and vaccination requirements of their destination.*Lab App*  enables authorized labs and test centers to securely share test and vaccination certificates with passengers.*Contactless Travel App*  enables passengers to (1) create a digital passport, (2) receive test and vaccination certificates and verify that they are sufficient for their itinerary, and (3) share testing or vaccination certificates with airlines and authorities to facilitate travel. This app can also be used by travelers to manage travel documentation digitally and seamlessly throughout their journey, improving travel experience. 
> IATA and International Airlines Group (IAG) have been working together in the development of this solution and will undertake a trial to demonstrate that this platform combined with COVID-19 testing can reopen borders.The first cross-border IATA Travel Pass pilot is scheduled for later this year and the launch slated for Q1 2021.


IATA Travel Pass set to help international passengers | Airlines.



It would be nice to not have to keep my Yellow Fever cert stashed with my passport.

----------


## harrybarracuda

I'd be fine with that if it speeds (well enables) the whole travel process.

----------


## hallelujah

> There's an app for that.
> Or there will be:
> 
> 
> 
> IATA Travel Pass set to help international passengers | Airlines.
> 
> 
> 
> It would be nice to not have to keep my Yellow Fever cert stashed with my passport.


Have you ever been asked for your yellow fever certificate?

----------


## hallelujah

> Don't certs about malaria etc.. have to be shown when entering certain areas?  I'm not sure.
> 
> Yellow fever?  Maybe if you leave certain places in Africa that have the virus?  No idea.


I've been to Central and South America, the US and Europe and my yellow fever cert has never been mentioned. I always carry it with me though cos there are tales of people being refused boarding at the airport.

----------


## panama hat

> I always carry it with me though cos there are tales of people being refused boarding at the airport.


Definitely better safe than sorry. 

I do believe this covid cert is going to be copied quicker than Skidmark saying something stupid.

----------


## OhOh

Oh dear it appears the airline industry watchdog IATA suggests foreign countries should open their borders, without quarantine, to enable it's members to make more profits.

*Air passenger traffic (meaning PROFITS) won’t return to pre-pandemic levels until 2024 at earliest, IATA warns*

29 Nov, 2020 13:52 

_          "The Covid crisis has challenged the global airline industry to  fight for survival in 2020, the International Air Transport Association  (IATA) said this week. It added that the industry’s huge losses will  continue into 2021.      
_
_“This crisis is  devastating and unrelenting. Airlines have cut costs by 45.8 percent,  but revenues are down 60.9 percent. The result is that airlines will  lose $66 for every passenger carried this year for a total net loss of  $118.5 billion. This loss will be reduced sharply by $80 billion in  2021. But the prospect of losing $38.7 billion next year is nothing to  celebrate,” said IATA Director General and CEO Alexandre de Juniac.
_
_He added: “We  need to get borders safely re-opened without quarantine so that people  will fly again. And with airlines expected to bleed cash at least until  the fourth quarter of 2021, there is no time to lose.”
_
_According to the IATA,  in the face of a half-trillion-dollar revenue drop (from $838 billion  in 2019 to $328 billion), airlines cut costs by $365 billion (from $795  billion in 2019 to $430 billion in 2020).
_
_“The history books will record 2020 as the industry’s worst  financial year, bar none. Airlines cut expenses by an average of a  billion dollars a day over 2020 and will still rack-up unprecedented  losses. Were it not for the $173 billion in financial support by  governments, we would have seen bankruptcies on a massive scale,” said de Juniac.
_
_While the industry will see an improved performance in 2021 compared to 2020, “the road to recovery is expected to be long and difficult.”  The association warned that passenger volumes are not expected to  return to 2019 levels until 2024 at the earliest, with domestic markets  recovering faster than international services._

_The  financial damage of this crisis is severe. Government support has kept  airlines alive to this point. More is likely needed as the crisis is  lasting longer than anyone could have anticipated. And it must come in  forms that do not increase the already high debt load which has  ballooned to $651 billion,” de Juniac said."

Air passenger traffic won’t return to pre-pandemic levels until 2024 at earliest, IATA warns — RT Business News
_
Possibly the western financial elite would consider sharing their wealth with the desperate tourists/the worlds citizens, rather than buying up, for peanuts, the affected  companies.Alternatively the airlines could pay the cost/accept the "repayable governments handouts" of  the alleged 97% effective vaccines, on the table and being shipped today. 

Whats another 600THB loss per passenger, when their already losing 2,000THB per passenger, touted above. Along with the health insurance/funeral costs for the tourists and those the tourists infect whilst on "holiday".

----------


## harrybarracuda

If that means cartel style pricing until 2024, fuck them.

Mind you I have a wad of cash I would have spent on tickets in Moderna and Xilinx stock and XRP.

 :bananaman:

----------


## misskit

*THAI Reveals New Flight Starting at Christmas- Chiang Mai, Bangkok, Phuket*

Thai Airways will resume domestic flights between Bangkok and Chiang Mai and Bangkok and Phuket from 25th December 2020 after suspending them for almost nine months because of COVID-19.


The last time the national carrier flew from the capital to the two tourist provinces was 1st April 2020.


There will be three flights a week, on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays, on both routes and the new schedules will run until 28th February, the source said.


He added that the flights would operate with the wide-bodied Boeing 777-200ER aircraft, with a full onboard service on offer and miles being earned by Royal Orchid Plus members.

The resumption of domestic flights follows the airline’s announcement last month that it would be relaunching scheduled international flights from 1st January 2021 to 27th March 2021.


It will fly one flight every Friday to Frankfurt and London, and a Sunday flight to Copenhagen and Sydney. THAI will also fly one Wednesday flight to Seoul, a Thursday flight to Manila, one to Taipei on Fridays and one to Osaka on Saturdays.


Bangkok-Tokyo flights will be available three times a week, on Monday, Wednesday and Saturday, while the Bangkok-Hong Kong flights will be available every day.


The airline is seeking to make up losses worth more than 300 billion baht in the Central Bankruptcy Court.


Meanwhile, Somdet Susomboon, director-general of the Department of International Trade Promotion, says THAI will support exporting Thai fruit and vegetables to Asia and Europe until the end of next year under an agreement between the Commerce Ministry, the Agriculture and Cooperative Ministry and the Transport Ministry.


Mr Susomboon said the major markets for Thai produce were Hong Kong, South Korea, Japan and Europe.


Also, Pattaya mayor Sonthaya Khunpluem says the seaside town’s Fireworks Festival on 27th November – 28th November was a huge success, attracted between 100,000-200,000 visitors a day, boosting local tourism and resulting in 100% hotel occupancy rate.


Mr Khunpluem estimated that during the two-day festival, about 2,000 baht was spent by each person per day, generating more than 400 million baht.

THAI Reveals New Flight Starting at Christmas- Chiang Mai, Bangkok, Phuket | Chiang Mai One

----------


## harrybarracuda

Airbus has committed to equipping all of its in-production aircraft types with line-fit emergency locator technology (ELT) inspired by a European Union Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) regulatory mandate related to the disappearance of Malaysia Airlines flight MH370. 

Under a new agreement with Paris, France-based aircraft ELT manufacturer Orolia, Ultima-DT will be installed on a standard basis on all Airbus commercial aircraft programs, including the A220, A320 family, A330, and A350 according to a Dec. 9 press release.

The technology will be installed on Airbus aircraft as part of a single source, multi-year program contract awarded to Orolia. 

As per the (ICAO) Autonomous Distress Tracking (ADT) mandate was birthed as part of its Global Aeronautical Distress and Safety System (GADSS) initiative and European Union mandate, all new aircraft delivered from January 2023 shall be able to autonomously report their location anywhere in the world and determine the end of flight location to help rescue teams rapidly locate the aircraft and recover flight recorders.

Every Airbus Passenger Jet to Receive MH370-Inspired ELTs Beginning in 2023 - Aviation Today

----------


## harrybarracuda

Some positive news for Thai Airways for a change.




> British Airways has cut more than 15 long-haul routes that were due to operate next year.
> Destinations including Sydney, _Bangkok_, Kuala Lumpur, Seoul, Calgary, Abu Dhabi and the Seychelles have all been dropped by the airline.
> The carrier has been badly hit by the collapse in demand caused by the coronavirus pandemic, with long-haul routes the worst affected.
> Its owner IAG swung to a pre-tax loss of 6.2 billion euros (£5.6 billion) for the nine months to the end of September.


British Airways cuts more than 15 long-haul routes including Sydney and Bangkok - Grimsby Live

----------


## David48atTD

FUCK ... deeper and deeper!

---

Boeing 'inappropriately coached' pilots in 737 MAX testing, US Senate report says


The Boeing 737 MAX has recently begun flying again after being cleared by the US aviation agency.(AP: Elaine Thompson, File)

Boeing officials "inappropriately coached" test pilots  during recertification efforts after two fatal 737 MAX crashes killed  346 people, according to a lengthy new US congressional report.

*Key points:*

A whistleblower said Boeing representatives gave advice to test pilots in flight simulationsThe report accuses Boeing and the Federal Aviation Administration of trying to cover up important informationThe committee's chair said the report highlighted failed leadership and lack of oversight in the aviation agency 

The  report from the Senate Commerce Committee raised questions about  whether this year's testing of a key safety system known as MCAS  tied  to both fatal crashes  was contrary to proper protocol.

The  committee concluded Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and Boeing  officials "had established a pre-determined outcome to reaffirm a  long-held human factor assumption related to pilot reaction time".

"It  appears, in this instance, FAA and Boeing were attempting to cover up  important information that may have contributed to the 737 MAX  tragedies," the report said.


Here

----------


## OhOh

^

Rest assured it's a one off incident. At least no corners were cut during any ameristan vaccine development.

Profits before human lives!

----------


## harrybarracuda

Have you had your Russian injection yet?

Oh, that's probably a given.

I mean your Russian vaccine?

----------


## panama hat

The incredibly inane, bigoted and clumsy actions by Boeing . . . I use them as an example in my training sessions.  Pathetic.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> The incredibly inane, bigoted and clumsy actions by Boeing . . . I use them as an example in my training sessions.  Pathetic.


You forgot corrupt.

They pay politicians a lot of money to look the other way.

----------


## Klondyke

*MC-21 Boeing 737 MAX Challenger Takes First Flight With Russian Engines*

December 15, 2020

On Tuesday, the first MC-21 variant equipped with Russian-built PD-14 engines took its first flight. Taking off from the manufacturer’s test facilities in Siberia, the flight lasted an hour and 25 minutes. Russia’s Deputy Prime Minister said the jet was a landmark for the country’s civil aviation industry.

The flight, operated by aircraft with test registration 73055, took off from the airfield of the manufacturer Irkut in Siberia. It lasted 1 hour and 25 minutes, and onboard were two pilots and an engineer.

First take-off with PD-14
The standard version of the model, the MC-21-300, made its maiden flight back in 2017. However, this was its first lift-off for the MC-21-310 variant, equipped with the new domestic PD-14 engines. Produced by the company Aviadvigatel, the PD-14 has been developed specifically to power the new narrowbody plane.

Russia hopes that its new jet will take up the competition with Boeing’s 737 MAX and Airbus’ A320neo. To be able to market it with domestically produced engines would certainly be a feather in the cap for its aviation industry.

MC-21 Boeing 737 MAX Challenger Takes First Flight With Russian Engines - Simple Flying

----------


## panama hat

> You forgot corrupt.


Yes, that.  You have Boeing execs tagging along on every trade mission and part of every trade deal

----------


## OhOh

*Airbus expects Tianjin unit to be a hub for aircraft deliveries*

                                 By ZHU WENQIAN |              China Daily Global |             Updated: 2020-12-30 09:02

_"__European plane maker Airbus said on Tuesday that it was hopeful that  more international customers would come to China for aircraft  deliveries, according to a top company official. _ _Airbus' comments came after Connecticut, United States-based GECAS, a  subsidiary of General Electric, on Tuesday became the first foreign  aircraft lessor to take delivery of an A320neo aircraft assembled at the  company's final assembly line in Tianjin from its own order-book._
_
The aircraft, which will be leased by Chinese regional carrier  Colorful Guizhou Airlines, is rich testimony to China's strong  manufacturing capabilities, Airbus said._
_
"Making the delivery in Tianjin was a logical solution for the  Chinese customers of GECAS. Due to the ongoing pandemic, we decided to  provide local solutions for aircraft delivery. This has been a good  start, and we hope more international aircraft lessors will take  deliveries in Tianjin," said George Xu, CEO of Airbus China._
_
"We expect local deliveries to rise as a result of the new  dual-circulation strategy introduced by the Chinese authorities. It will  also promote internal circulation in the country. China was the first  major market where Airbus saw a recovery since the pandemic and we will  continue the investment in China and strengthen cooperation with Chinese  partners," Xu said._
_
So far, Airbus has delivered 509 aircraft assembled in Tianjin. The  Tianjin center, which has been in operation for 12 years, has helped  Airbus increase its market share in the country and steal a march over  its US rival Boeing Co. Besides, Airbus has A320 family production  facilities globally in Toulouse of France, Hamburg of Germany, and  Mobile, Alabama of the United States._
_
During the first quarter of the year, Airbus delivered 6 percent of  its new aircraft globally to customers in China. In the fourth quarter,  the deliveries rose to 25 percent of the total, showing a trajectory of  recovery. China has made significant contributions for the recovery in  the global aviation market, Airbus said._
_
Tianjin facility is one of the first companies to recover business  operations in Tianjin since the pandemic, with the support from the  local government. The company plans to start deliveries of wide-body  A350 aircraft from its completion and delivery center in Tianjin from  next year._
_
"The ongoing pandemic has had a significant impact on the  manufacturing and delivery of aircraft globally, and some carriers can't  take delivery of their aircraft due to travel restrictions posted by  different countries," said Lin Zhijie, an aviation industry analyst and a  columnist of Carnoc, one of the largest civil aviation websites in  China._
_
"The pandemic has been brought under better control in China, and it  did not have a major impact on the capacity of the Tianjin facility of  Airbus. The Tianjin center has served as a more convenient choice for  Chinese customers to take deliveries," Lin said."_

Airbus expects Tianjin unit to be a hub for aircraft deliveries - Chinadaily.com.cn

----------


## harrybarracuda

Now we know how Comac have made their new knock off so quickly.

----------


## PlanK

> Qantas has started taking bookings for international flights from July 1 in a perhaps optimistic view that by then, vaccinations will have begun to curb the spread of the coronavirus and travel demand will pick up.
> 
> Ticket sales for Japan, Hong Kong and Singapore, which had been set to start in March, have been pushed back to July, while other destinations like London have been brought forward from October, Australias national carrier said Tuesday. New Zealand is the only overseas destination to which Qantas is currently flying.
> 
> 
> Recently we have aligned the selling of our international services to reflect our expectation that international travel will begin to restart from July 2021, Qantas said. We continue to review and update our international schedule in response to the developing Covid-19 situation.


Might be a bit optimistic given that it is still up to gubmints of the world to decide whether to receive visitors.

----------


## OhOh

^
One presumes they demand payment, to accept/ "confirm" the booking. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## misskit

Thai Airways cuts down international flight schedule


Due to the ongoing spread of Covid-19, Thai Airways is reducing its international flight schedule from now until March 27. Domestic flights will still operate as normal under the airlines sister carrier Thai Smile.


Thai Airways will reduce international flights to the following destinations:


Asia


Hong Kong: One daily return flight  TG638/TG639
Manila: One weekly return flight  TG624/TG625
Osaka: One weekly return flight  TG622/TG623
Seoul: One weekly return flight  TG656/TG657
Taipei: One weekly return flight  TG632/TG633
Tokyo (Narita): Three weekly return flights  TG642/TG643



Australia


Sydney: One weekly return flight  TG475/TG476



Europe


Copenhagen: One weekly return flight  TG950/TG951
Frankfurt: One weekly return flight  TG922/TG923
London: One weekly return flight  TG910/TG911


Thai Airways cuts down international flight schedule | The Thaiger

----------


## PlanK

Air NZ starts non-quarantine flights to Aus.  The nice, clean Kiwis can go to Aus without spending two weeks in a hotel.  Coming back the otter way still requires a two week hotel stay.  Don't wanna catch whatever those filthy Aussies have.

----------


## OhOh

*Boeing agrees to pay $2.5bn fine facing ‘fraud conspiracy’ charges over 737 MAX crashes that killed 346 people*

7 Jan, 2021 21:44   / Updated 2 hours ago

_          "Boeing will pay some $2.5 billion to resolve criminal charges  linked to two deadly crashes involving its 737 MAX aircraft, agreeing to  hand over a small fraction of its yearly revenue as the DOJ charges it  with “fraud conspiracy.”      
_
_“The  tragic crashes of Lion Air Flight 610 and Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302  exposed fraudulent and deceptive conduct by employees of one of the  world’s leading commercial airplane manufacturers,” Acting Assistant Attorney General David Burns said in a statement on Thursday.

__"Boeing’s  employees chose the path of profit over candor by concealing material  information from the [Federal Aviation Administration] concerning the  operation of its 737 Max airplane and engaging in an effort to cover up  their deception."
__
The department said  the massive settlement will include a criminal penalty worth $243.6  million, $1.77 billion in payments to buyers of the 737 MAX, as well as a  smaller $500 million contribution to a crash victim beneficiaries'  fund, which will compensate the families of passengers who perished in  the two accidents. The payments will have no impact on ongoing civil  litigation against Boeing by relatives of crash victims, according to  lawyers for the plaintiffs cited by Reuters, who noted that the  settlement would only strengthen their case."

_Boeing agrees to pay $2.5bn fine facing ‘fraud conspiracy’ charges over 737 MAX crashes that killed 346 people — RT Business News

----------


## harrybarracuda

That will hurt them.

----------


## Troy

^ Less than VW fine...

----------


## OhOh

> That will hurt them.


Share price + or - 0.1%

----------


## harrybarracuda

> That will hurt them.


Yes, but as the article suggests, that's an admission of guilt that all of those lawsuits are now going to be quoting.

Wrongful death lawsuits in the US?

The lawyers will be bathing in champagne just at this news.

----------


## OhOh

And one hopes the Boeing management are stripped of their liberty and assets.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> And one hopes the Boeing management are stripped of their liberty and assets.


Maybe if they ever set foot in Ethiopia or Indonesia, against which I'm sure their lawyers have advised them.

----------


## panama hat

> One presumes they demand payment, to accept/ "confirm" the booking.


When was the last time you booked a ticket, fuckwit?







> Air NZ starts non-quarantine flights to Aus. The nice, clean Kiwis can go to Aus without spending two weeks in a hotel. Coming back the otter way still requires a two week hotel stay.


That's all changed now with three people in Brissie confirmed with c-19 . . . again, plans nixed to meet up with eldest daughter

----------


## HuangLao

> And one hopes the Boeing management are stripped of their liberty and assets.



Not when they're graced by the protection of government/military subsidies/contracts - 
Part of the extended racket that serves them all well.

----------


## Klondyke

> When was the last time you booked a ticket, fuckwit?


If you are not booking a ticket every week (like some of our worldly-wise) - you are a fuckwit...

----------


## panama hat

> If you are not booking a ticket every week (like some of our worldly-wise) - you are a fuckwit...


No, decrepit tovarish.  No-one spoke of any weekly purchase, so you can take your deflections and shove them up your arse - you're not fooling anyone by your obfuscation. 

When is the last time you bought a ticket?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> No, decrepit tovarish.  No-one spoke of any weekly purchase, so you can take your deflections and shove them up your arse - you're not fooling anyone by your obfuscation. 
> 
> When is the last time you bought a ticket?


You can make a booking whenever you like, if the airline offers it. However, they will always have a cutoff date for payment. Having said that, I haven't tried booking a ticket since it was official declared a Pandemic.

I'm fucked if I'm paying up front for a ticket until I'm 100% convinced that I will be able to use it before the airline's conditions run out or they go bankrupt.

Hotels on the other hand you can book away on Agoda or Booking.com because they make it clear if the property allows 100% refunds if you cancel by a certain date.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Budget airline Norwegian has axed its long-haul network, leading to the loss of 1,100 pilot and cabin crew jobs based at Gatwick Airport.

The carrier said it will operate a "simplified business structure and dedicated short-haul route network" after being badly hit by the coronavirus pandemic.

The plan, which is subject to approval by an Irish bankruptcy court, would cut Norwegians fleet to about 50 aircraft from the existing 140, the company said.

Norwegian, which helped transform transatlantic travel by expanding the European budget airline business model to longer-haul destinations, has been forced to ground all but six of its aircraft amid the pandemic.

Norwegian air scraps long-haul network seeing 1,100 jobs lost at Gatwick - Mirror Online

----------


## OhOh

*Extra flights won’t count against arrrivals cap: Birmingham*

3:43pm, Jan 17, 2021

"The federal government expects *hundreds* of stranded Australians will be  brought home on the 20 flights it is chartering *in coming months*."

_'The decision for the chartered flights came after the Emirates airline withdrew services to the east coast"

"There are some 37,000 Australians registered with the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade who want to return home."

Extra flights won't count against arrrivals cap: Birmingham
_

----------


## harrybarracuda

You can FUCK RIGHT OFF.




> Boeing 737 Max to be cleared to fly in Europe
> 
> The head of Europe's aviation safety agency, EASA, has said Boeing's 737 Max plane will get final clearance to resume flying in Europe next week.
> 
> The agency suspended all flights of the plane in March 2019, after two fatal crashes that have been attributed to flawed flight control software.
> 
> A total of 346 people died in the crashes in Indonesia and Ethiopia.
> 
> The modified plane has already been cleared for the resumption of flights in the US and Brazil.
> ...


Boeing 737 Max to be cleared to fly in Europe - BBC News

----------


## Troy

^ Ryanair, TUI, and Turkish are the European airlines with firm orders. Doubt you'll be flying with these anyway 'arry.

----------


## OhOh

> Pilots will need to undergo mandatory training,


An expense the airlines who were sold the plane on in time and money, was NOT required.

 One presumes all airline pilots have always had to be certified to able to recover from a vertical nose dive six seconds before crashing into hard rock or water, whilst the instrument display indicates all is well and multiple klaxons blaring.

Mr. Bond's




 martini will now be available!

----------


## cisco999

This is a pretty good documentary on designed  plane crash.   It may be from 2014 but it's new  to me.   It's lengthy at 1:12 but  I found it worthwhile.






It shows it as inactive but when I clicked on the start button it does work.      I have my VPN set on the USA.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Maybe you should post it in the documentary thread instead of news then, huh?

----------


## David48atTD

OK ... who forgot to double check the cowling clip?

United Airlines flight suffers engine failure, scatters debris over Colorado before emergency landing

----------


## harrybarracuda

Imagine finding that in your garden.

----------


## Klondyke

^Contagious?

*Boeing 747 Engine Parts Rain Down On Dutch Village After Engine Fire*

February 20, 2021

A cargo plane departing Maastricht Aachen Airport (MST) lost metal parts as it took off to its New York destination. It appears that these fragments came from an engine failure, with sources noting that the aircraft involved is a Boeing 747-400. Sources also report that some people on the ground have been slightly injured while various cars and property were damaged as a result of the fragments coming down. The aircraft was diverted to Liege.

Boeing 747 loses parts after take-off from Maastricht, diverts to Liege - Two people injured - Aviation24.be

----------


## Troy

^^ & ^ Both P&W engines on Boeing aircraft, the first one is a B 777-200 and looks pretty dramatic. Lucky there were no serious injuries to anyone on the ground.

----------


## harrybarracuda



----------


## Bogon

^^ Just looking for confirmation. So no RR engines were involved?

--EDIT--

Reconfirmed the info that I was looking for...

UA328 was operated by 777-200 registered N772UA. It is the fifth 777 ever produced by Boeing and powered by two Pratt & Whitney PW4000 series engines.

United UA328 suffers engine failure departing Denver | Flightradar24 Blog

----------


## David48atTD

United takes 24 Boeing 777s out of service as the FAA orders inspections following engine failure

FAA orders inspections of Boeing 777s after engine failure on United flight

----------


## Troy

^ JAL and ANA have also grounded their P&W 777 fleets. I imagine Korean Air will follow suit. Don't know any other airlines flying 777 with this engine fit.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Boeing has recommended grounding more than 120 of its 777 jets worldwide following a catastrophic engine failure on a United Airlines plane in Denver.
The company said on Sunday night that airlines using the same type of engine that scattered debris across Denver before making an emergency landing should suspend operations until inspections could be carried out.

Boeing 777s grounded around world after Denver engine failure | Boeing | The Guardian

----------


## Troy

^^ Asiana in the other one affected.

----------


## OhOh

*Engine parts drop from Boeing 747 cargo plane in Netherlands*


Mon 22 Feb 2021 14.06 GMT

_"Dutch authorities are investigating after a Boeing 747-400 cargo plane dropped engine parts shortly after takeoff from Maastricht airport.
_
_The  Longtail Aviation Flight 5504 cargo plane scattered mostly small metal  parts over the southern Dutch town of Meerssen on Saturday, causing  damage and injuring a woman.
_
_The  Bermuda-registered plane, which was headed from Maastricht to New York,  was powered by Pratt & Whitney PW4000 engines, a smaller version of  those on a United Airlines Boeing 777 involved in an incident in Colorado on Saturday"

_
Engine parts drop from Boeing 747 cargo plane in Netherlands | Boeing | The Guardian


Watch out for  boing, boing 757s and 767s ?

----------


## harrybarracuda

Is this a consequence of planes laying around doing nothing for a long time I wonder?

----------


## harrybarracuda

Pretty pictures and an accompanying article in the link. The third one is categorised as "minor damage"!







NTSB Shares Damage Experienced By United 777 Engine Failure - Simple Flying

----------


## cisco999

> I've got 6 upcoming flights within the next month.
> Checked them all.
> They are all A320s




Nothing could possibly go wrong.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Nothing could possibly go wrong.


But just to be sure best to leave a tidy sum to TD so we can organise a decent wake.

----------


## harrybarracuda



----------


## OhOh

> I've got 6 upcoming flights within the next month.
> Checked them all.
> They are all A320s


*11-03-2019*, 12:18 Pm




> Nothing could possibly go wrong.


Today, 07:15 PM

----------


## harrybarracuda

> *11-03-2019*, 12:18 Pm
> 
> 
> Today, 07:15 PM


You just have to spoil the fun, don't you?

----------


## Wakey

> UA328 was operated by 777-200 registered N772UA. It is the fifth 777 ever produced by Boeing and powered by two Pratt & Whitney PW4000 series engines.
> 
> United UA328 suffers engine failure departing Denver | Flightradar24 Blog


It's crazy that numerous A380s are being taken out of service that are barely a decade old when loads of planes produced in the early 90s, like this 777, are still in use.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> It's crazy that numerous A380s are being taken out of service that are barely a decade old when loads of planes produced in the early 90s, like this 777, are still in use.


No it's not. The A380 isn't worth it if you can't fill it.

----------


## Wakey

I don't expect a ten year old A380 costs more to run than a 27 year old 777.

----------


## lom

> I don't expect a ten year old A380 costs more to run than a 27 year old 777.


What you expect is irrelevant.
The A380 is taken out of service because there is no economy in flying them.
The 777 is still flying because they are under some circumstances still economical.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> What you expect is irrelevant.
> The A380 is taken out of service because there is no economy in flying them.
> The 777 is still flying because they are under some circumstances still economical.


or to state what should really be obvious:




> With limited data on the dual engine widebodies, it appears that the Boeing 767 costs around $9,130 per hour to operate, _the 777 costs around $7,380 per hour_, and the Airbus A330 costs around $7,900 per hour.
> 
> More engines lead to higher prices. 
> 
> <snip>
> 
> _The Airbus A380, the largest passenger jet, costs between $26,000 and $29,000 per hour_, using roughly $17,467 of fuel, approximately $40.19 to $44.82 per mile. The engines on these aircraft account for 5% of the operating expenses.


Analysis of direct operating cost of wide-body passenger aircraft: A parametric study based on Hong Kong - ScienceDirect

----------


## Troy

Four engines are considered uneconomical nowadays. The reliability of engines has become so good and twin engined range so improved that 4 engines are not required for most routes.

The a380 was a dead duck at the design stage and I was shocked it ever went into production.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Four engines are considered uneconomical nowadays. The reliability of engines has become so good and twin engined range so improved that 4 engines are not required for most routes.
> 
> The a380 was a dead duck at the design stage and I was shocked it ever went into production.


If it hadn't been for Emirates it would probably have never been made.

Airlines can now fly A32x's from the Gulf to London (and at least one has been doing exactly that).

----------


## harrybarracuda

Ouch.




> Heathrow Airport posted an eye-watering £2bn full-year loss and called on UK Chancellor Rishi Sunak to provide supportive measures for the sector in next week’s budget.
> The airport is asking the Chancellor to provide 100% business rates relief, extend the furlough scheme and reverse the tourist tax.


UK reports over 18 million people have had first COVID vaccine shot | Reuters

----------


## baldrick

> and reverse the tourist tax.


nothing like "tourist tax" to indicate you are visiting a third world country  :Smile:

----------


## TTraveler

Here's to a bit more anxiety before your next flight:

New hacker group targets airlines, refugees with well worn tools

----------


## Klondyke

> The reliability of engines has become so good and twin engined range so improved that 4 engines are not required for most routes.


Unless they do not drop off...

----------


## Wakey

> The 777 is still flying because they are under some circumstances still economical.


Not the models with those engines though  :Wink:

----------


## cyrille

Will you be racking up another 60+ posts today, wakey?

How about introducing yourself in the...err...'newbie' zone?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Not the models with those engines though


So why was it flying with passengers then? Because they wanted to make a loss?

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Will you be racking up another 60+ posts today, wakey?
> 
> How about introducing yourself in the...err...'newbie' zone?


Ssssssh he's busy trying out his new passive aggressive nick.

----------


## OhOh

*Boeing 777 makes emergency landing in Russia after engine issue*                                              Sputnik |             Updated: 2019-11-06 15:45

_"__Aircraft flight No 7571 Moscow - Punta Cana (Dominican Republic) made  a safe landing at Sheremetyevo Airport and the plane had problems with  an engine, a source told the Russian media. _ _According to media reports, the pilots had to land the plane due to an oil leak, discovered in one of the aircraft's engines.
_
_A representative of the Russian emergency services said the oil  pressure sensor in one of the engines went off shortly after takeoff.  Preliminary data shows 488 people were on board the aircraft."

Boeing 777 makes emergency landing in Russia after engine issue - World - Chinadaily.com.cn_

----------


## lom

> 2019-11-06 15:45


News? No, Olds!

----------


## harrybarracuda

> News? No, Olds!


Awwww and HooHoo was really excited about the chinkies getting a scoop, too.

 :rofl:

----------


## Troy

> Unless they do not drop off...


The chances of both engines on a twin, cleared for ETOPS, failing in cruise is estimated to be 1 in 4 trillion. 

ETOPS : Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim

----------


## OhOh

> News? No, Olds!


Oh dear. So many similar Boeing planes with problems. :tieme: 

*Boeing 777 makes an emergency landing in Moscow after engine sensor problem*

February 26, 2021 3:48 PMUpdated 2 hours ago

_"A Rossiya  Airlines Boeing 777 cargo plane made an emergency landing at Moscow’s  Sheremetyevo airport on Friday due to a problem with an engine control  sensor, the airline said.__The  plane was a 15-year-old 777-300ER, according to flight tracking website  FlightRadar24, which means it has General Electric engines.
_
_Those  are different from the Pratt & Whitney PW4000 engines under  scrutiny after an engine fire aboard a United Airlines 777 on Saturday  which prompted the suspension of operations involving planes using those  engines.
_
_GE Aviation said it was aware of the event._
_
“Safety  is our first priority, and our technical support teams are working  closely with the airline to quickly resolve the issue and return the  aircraft to normal operations,” it said in a statement.
_
_Russian  airlines operate Boeing 777-300ER planes equipped with General Electric  GE90-115B engines, federal aviation agency Rosaviatsiya said on  Wednesday, adding it was not considering suspending operation of those  aircraft._
_
Rossiya  Airlines Flight 4520, travelling from Hong Kong to Madrid, touched down  in Moscow at 0444 local time (0144 GMT), data from Flightradar24  showed.
_
_Rossiya  Airlines, a unit of Russian state carrier Aeroflot, said the crew  requested the landing at the airline’s base airport in Moscow._
_
“The  landing took place normally,” Rossiya said in a statement, adding that  the flight would continue to Madrid after 0900 GMT on Friday."_

Boeing 777 makes emergency landing in Moscow after engine sensor problem | Reuters

Boeing 777 makes an emergency landing in Moscow after engine sensor problem

Boeing 777 with engine trouble makes emergency landing in Moscow | The Independent

Boeing 777 Makes an Emergency Landing in Moscow After Engine Warning - The New York Times

----------


## harrybarracuda

Does that strike anyone else as incomprehensible?





> Financially struggling Thai Airways International (THAI) announced a staggering net loss of 141 billion baht last year as the Covid-19 crisis plunged the carrier deeper into the red.
> THAI and its subsidiaries earned combined revenue of 48.3 billion baht with expenses totalling 96.4 billion baht between them.
> That resulted in an operating loss of 48.1 billion baht and translated into a net loss of 141.1 billion baht last year, said Chai Eamsiri, executive vice president of THAI's Finance and Accounting Department.
> The loss exceeded that of 2019 which amounted to 129.1 billion baht.


Thai Airways loss soars to B141bn

----------


## Wakey

> Does that strike anyone else as incomprehensible?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thai Airways loss soars to B141bn


No, an operating loss is based on revenues and operating expenses and ignores loan repayments & interest which for an airline will be huge. For Thai it's almost 100 billion per year.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> No, an operating loss is based on revenues and operating expenses and ignores loan repayments & interest which for an airline will be huge. For Thai it's almost 100 billion per year.


You forgot the skim.

----------


## Wakey

555 yes.

----------


## Troy

> *Boeing 777 makes emergency landing in Russia after engine issue*
> 
>                                               Sputnik |             Updated: 2019-11-06 15:45
> 
> _"__Aircraft flight No 7571 Moscow - Punta Cana (Dominican Republic) made  a safe landing at Sheremetyevo Airport and the plane had problems with  an engine, a source told the Russian media. _ _According to media reports, the pilots had to land the plane due to an oil leak, discovered in one of the aircraft's engines.
> _
> _A representative of the Russian emergency services said the oil  pressure sensor in one of the engines went off shortly after takeoff.  Preliminary data shows 488 people were on board the aircraft."
> 
> Boeing 777 makes emergency landing in Russia after engine issue - World - Chinadaily.com.cn_


A complete non event and not even an emergency, just over enthusiastic journalism. 

The Aviation Herald

----------


## lom

^ Two different events, OhOh's took place more than a year ago.

----------


## Troy

^ Apologies, I linked to the wrong emergency from OhOh, this is the one that was a non event...




> Boeing 777 makes an emergency landing in Moscow after engine sensor problem
> 
> February 26, 2021 3:48 PMUpdated 2 hours ago
> 
> "A Rossiya Airlines Boeing 777 cargo plane made an emergency landing at Moscow’s Sheremetyevo airport on Friday due to a problem with an engine control sensor, the airline said.The plane was a 15-year-old 777-300ER, according to flight tracking website FlightRadar24, which means it has General Electric engines.
> 
> Those are different from the Pratt & Whitney PW4000 engines under scrutiny after an engine fire aboard a United Airlines 777 on Saturday which prompted the suspension of operations involving planes using those engines.

----------


## HuangLao

> You forgot the skim.



....and the general ill-fitted Thai business practices.
Can only subsidize quasi-royal projects for so long before the realization kicks in.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ....and the general ill-fitted Thai business practices.
> Can only subsidize quasi-royal projects for so long before the realization kicks in.


Like giving all your mates free upgrades to business and first at the expense of paying customers?

----------


## harrybarracuda

London’s Heathrow airport will charge departing passengers an extra 8.90 pounds ($12.40) in an effort to claw back costs as the coronavirus crisis depresses air travel.
The tariff is permitted by the U.K.’s aviation regulator under a protocol that allows the hub to cover costs for utilities, baggage and check-in services. Heathrow makes “zero profit” from such activities, with the fees covering operating and maintenance expenses, it said in a statement Sunday.
Heathrow has been hit particularly hard by the pandemic since it relies on long-haul markets that have been all-but wiped out. The airport last week posted a 2 billion-pound loss for 2020 after passenger numbers tumbled 73%, a decline it says has left it unable to cover the costs of providing some services.
The new per-passenger levy, or Airport Cost Recovery Charge, is due to be imposed for the rest of this year and was agreed with airlines as the preferred way for Heathrow to recover its costs, according to the so-called general notice dated Feb. 4 that details the price increases.
Heathrow, controlled by interests including Spanish builder Ferrovial SA, the Qatar Investment Authority, private-equity firm Alinda Capital Partners and China Investment Corp., will also charge a 4.44-pound tariff for each item of passenger luggage.
That sum is lower than one flagged on Dec. 16 as a result of some baggage-related costs having been included in the passenger levy, according to the general notice.
The Civil Aviation Authority is separately considering whether Heathrow should be allowed to raise the fees it charges airlines on a limited basis prior to a longer-term regulatory settlement that starts next year. Heathrow has been seeking an adjustment it says would lift fares by 1.20 pounds per passenger.
©2021 Bloomberg L.P.

Heathrow Imposes Passenger Charges to Cover Pandemic Costs - BNN Bloomberg

----------


## lom

^ On the positive side breathing is still free at Heathrow.

----------


## Klondyke

^Unless you got under a Heavy cop... ("I can't breath").

----------


## harrybarracuda

*Cat on plane to Doha forces flight to return to Khartoum*

A Sudanese flight crew was surprised when they found an odd kind of passenger was in their cockpit, half an hour after the Tarco flight took off from Khartoum International Airport bound to Hamad International Airport in Doha. It was a cat!

A source told the Al-Sudani that the flight took off from Khartoum Airport, on its way to the Qatari capital and after half an hour had passed, a cat was spotted in the cockpit. It's alleged that the cat attacked the captain, which forced him to turn the flight back towards Khartoum Airport, in a unique incident.

Information obtained by Al-Sudani revealed that the plane was standing in the hanger at Khartoum Airport the first night before it was to fly to Doha and, according to sources, the cat must have gotten into the cabin of the plane during the cleaning work or the engineering review of the aircraft.

Cat on plane to Doha forces flight to return to Khartoum

----------


## Shutree

> ^ On the positive side breathing is still free at Heathrow.


It's just as well. People are complaining about queues up to 7 hours at Heathrow immigration. Seven hours! It's worse than third world.

Heathrow Airport seven-hour queues '&#39;'inhumane'&#39;', say passengers - BBC News

----------


## PlanK

^^

Part of a worldwide cat conspiracy:

Cat on a fast train roof holds up London to Manchester service | UK news | The Guardian




> After a two and a half hours, the standoff came to an end when a bin was pulled up beside the carriage, giving the animal a platform on which to disembark.
> The feline appeared unbothered as it alighted the train, according to station staff, who described it as swaggering off into the night as though it had other places to be. It is still not known how the cat reached the top of the train in the first place.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> It's just as well. People are complaining about queues up to 7 hours at Heathrow immigration. Seven hours! It's worse than third world.
> 
> Heathrow Airport seven-hour queues '&#39;'inhumane'&#39;', say passengers - BBC News


It's very simple: Don't go there.

----------


## David48atTD

Airline IT provider hacked, Star Alliance and OneWorld frequent flyer data breached



The hack of a company that manages ticket-processing  and frequent-flyer data for major global airlines  including Star  Alliance and OneWorld members  has compromised the personal data of an  unspecified number of travellers.

*Key points:*

Singapore Airlines, New Zealand Air and Lufthansa were among those affected.Some airlines urged frequent-flyer customers to change their account passwordsSITA provides IT services for the airline industry 

The  hackers were able to access some computer systems at Atlanta-based SITA  Passenger Service System for up to a month before the incident's  seriousness was confirmed on February 24, a spokesman for the company's  Geneva-based parent company said.

The spokesman,  Sandro Hofer, would not say how many airlines were affected  SITA says  it serves more than 400 airlines and is industry owned.

The company said that Singapore Airlines, New Zealand Air and Lufthansa were among those affected.

HERE

----------


## Klondyke

*American Airlines Boeing 737 MAX flight from Miami safely lands at Newark airport after captain shut engine down due to a problem with oil pressure
*
An American Airlines Boeing 737 Max made an emergency landing Friday afternoon at Newark airport in New JerseyNewark airport in New Jersey

Pilots noticed a possible problem with an engine oil pressure indicator

The plane was traveling from Miami, landed safely and taxied to the gate under its own power

There were no injuries among the 95 passengers and six crew members 

Boeing Max was grounded worldwide for nearly two years after two crashes that killed 346 people

Investigators have focused on a flight-control system, not the engines

Federal regulators approved changes Boeing made to the flight system, and American resumed flying its Max jets in late December

Since then, United and Alaska Airlines have put passengers on Max planes, and Southwest Airlines plans to resume flights with the planes next week

American Airlines Boeing 737 MAX flight from Miami lands Newark airport after oil pressure problem | Daily Mail Online

----------


## Wakey

Unsurprising when its been left idle for years.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Unsurprising when its been left idle for years.


Unsurprising when minor technical problems occur pretty well every day in the airline industry. Do you not fly much?

----------


## harrybarracuda

I believe the saying is "beggars can't be choosers".




> The labour union at Thai Airways International (THAI) has lodged a petition with the Labour Ministry complaining about the struggling airline's new employment contracts, saying they are unfair and illegal.
> 
> THAI plans to cut its workforce from 19,500 people to 13,000-15,000 within five years so the new scheme involves revising contracts while seeking 6,000-7,000 voluntary redundancies.
> 
> Chansin Treenuchagron, the airline's acting president, said the new contracts were part of company efforts to restructure and come back stronger. The airline was asking for workers' cooperation.
> 
> He insisted that those who agreed to the new contracts did not have to resign first, and said those chosen to continue working for the airline would have job security.
> 
> According to Mr Chansin, the airline made sure the contract scheme was in compliance with the law and fair to employees under the current circumstances.
> ...


THAI union says new contracts are illegal

----------


## Joe 90

Sobering news for millions across the globe..

Unemployment impact of coronavirus on industries supported by air transport worldwide in 2020, by region (in millions)*
Job loss in millions
Middle East	0.9
Africa	2
North America	2
Latin America	2.9
Europe	5.6
Asia Pacific	11.2

----------


## Saint Willy

> on industries supported by air transport


That's a fairly large umbrella.

----------


## harrybarracuda

They already have the FDR, so I don't know what this will add.




> *Divers recover missing cockpit voice recorder from crashed Indonesia passenger jet*
> 
> The cockpit recorder was found near where the flight data recorder was recovered three days after the crash
> 
> Akshita Jain
> 1 hour ago
> 
> Indonesian navy divers have recovered the missing cockpit voice recorder from a Sriwijaya Air jet that crashed into the Java Sea in January.
> 
> ...


Divers recover missing cockpit voice recorder from crashed Indonesia passenger jet | The Independent

----------


## Troy

^ It will tell the investigating team what was happening in the cockpit at the time of the accident. The pilots appear to have been distracted, possibly looking for a route through the storms. Whatever the distraction, they failed to notice the throttle misalignment and the yoke moving to the right. They appear to have been caught by surprise when the autopilot tripped out and failed to recover the plane in time. Perhaps the team will discover something else that may lead to additional training being added to the syllabus.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^ It will tell the investigating team what was happening in the cockpit at the time of the accident. The pilots appear to have been distracted, possibly looking for a route through the storms. Whatever the distraction, they failed to notice the throttle misalignment and the yoke moving to the right. They appear to have been caught by surprise when the autopilot tripped out and failed to recover the plane in time. Perhaps the team will discover something else that may lead to additional training being added to the syllabus.


I suppose you're right but shouldn't that already be on the simulator syllabus?

I flew that airline from Bali to Flores a couple of years ago on my Komodo Dragon adventure. The aircraft was a bit fucking tatty, maybe it was the same one.   :Smile:

----------


## OhOh

*Boeing sounds alarm on new problem with its troubled 737 Max, advises grounding of jets again* 

9 Apr, 2021 14:32 

_"__Just a few months after Boeing’s 737 Max aircraft were allowed  to return to the skies the company announced a new problem with the  ill-fated jets, calling for dozens of planes to be grounded over issues  with the electrical system. 

__“Boeing has  recommended to 16 customers that they address a potential electrical  issue in a specific group of 737 MAX airplanes prior to further  operations,” 

the Chicago-based manufacturer said in a statement on Friday._
_
The multinational said it was working with the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) on the “production issue.” It also said that the problem doesn’t affect the entire fleet, but a specific group of planes.
_
_The company has pledged to provide further directions on “appropriate corrective actions.”_
_“The  recommendation is being made to allow for verification that a  sufficient ground path exists for a component of the electrical power  system,” the corporation said.Boeing neither specified which 16  airlines are affected by this alert nor disclosed the number of planes  with the problem._
_
The Boeing 737 MAX passenger airliner made  headlines after two nearly new planes crashed within five months. The  fatal crashes, which occurred in Indonesia and Ethiopia, killed all 346  people on board._
_
The incidents prompted a lengthy safety review  and all the jets were grounded worldwide for 20 months, from March 2019  through November of 2020.
_
_In November, the FAA cleared Boeing’s 737 MAX to fly, having approved  the fixes that the manufacturer made to the malfunctioning safety  system, which was blamed for the crashes. Several countries, including  China, haven’t cleared the plane to fly yet._
_
Boeing reportedly had  to sustain damages exceeding $20 billion as a result of the tragedies  caused by its latest generation, single-aisle workhorse."_
_
Boeing sounds alarm on new problem with its troubled 737 Max, advises grounding of jets again — RT Business News

_The Worst case:*

Top 16 airlines by deliveries:* 

(Chinese identified airlines deleted, 0 flying)
Airline
Delivered

Southwest Airlines[n 4]
60

American Airlines
39

United Airlines
27

GECAS
25

Air Canada
24

Norwegian Air Shuttle
18

Air Lease Corporation
15

TUI Group
15

flydubai
14

Lion Air[n 2]
14

Turkish Airlines
12

WestJet
12

SMBC Aviation Capital
11

Aviation Capital Group
100

Aeroméxico
60

SilkAir
6

Total delivered
452



_https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...and_deliveries

_

----------


## Troy

^ From the Seattle Times:

A minor change  in Boeing’s 737 MAX manufacturing process that was  insufficiently vetted caused an electrical system problem that on Friday  temporarily grounded more than 60 of the aircraft — out of almost 200  MAXs that have returned to service since December.

While this latest manufacturing flaw is unrelated to the flight-control  system implicated in two fatal crashes that grounded the MAX for nearly  two years, it slows the positive momentum that had begun to build as  more MAXs took to the air and new orders came in from United, Alaska and  Southwest.

The problem, according to two people with knowledge of the modified  manufacturing process, arose when a backup electrical power control unit  was secured to a rack on the flight deck with fasteners — in place of  the rivets previously used.

This change was executed in such a way that it did not provide a  complete electrical grounding path to the unit. The lack of secure  electrical grounding could potentially cause  malfunctions in a variety  of electrical systems, such as the engine anti-ice system and the  auxiliary power unit (APU) in the plane’s tail.

Boeing said it discovered the issue “on a production airplane during  normal build activity” and that inspections are needed to verify “that a  sufficient ground path exists” for this control unit.  

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) said Boeing notified it late  Thursday that it was recommending  certain MAX airplanes be temporarily  removed from service.

After Boeing informed airlines late Thursday evening, Southwest grounded 30 of its MAXs. American grounded 17, and United 16.

Boeing said 16 customers worldwide are affected.

FAA spokesperson Ian Gregor said Boeing’s manufacturing switch from  rivets to fasteners was “a minor design change” that did not require  approval by either the federal safety agency or the internal Boeing  organization that represents the FAA and assures compliance with  regulations.

This latest problem adds to the long litany of missteps currently afflicting Boeing.


Manufacturing  flaws have grounded more than 80 of the widebody 787 Dreamliners for  months; design flaws mean the vision system on the Air Force’s KC-46  military aerial refueling tanker must be completely revamped; and  quality issues have delayed the Starliner spacecraft program.


And  in a previously unreported problem, Boeing recently found a potential  defect in a batch of 20 to 40 motors that move the horizontal stabilizer  on all 737s, including the MAX and earlier models. 

New electrical flaw grounds more than 60 737 MAXs, adding to Boeing’s woes | The Seattle Times

A manufacturing problem only affecting those aircraft that have rolled off the assembly line since the grounding...

...or as someone on pprune put it: "grounded because they weren't grounded"... :Smile:

----------


## baldrick

if electrical ground path was so important for the operation of this unit I would have expected dedicated cabling rather than rivets

----------


## harrybarracuda

> if electrical ground path was so important for the operation of this unit I would have expected dedicated cabling rather than rivets


Ask yourself which is cheaper?

----------


## Troy

> if electrical ground path was so important for the operation of this unit I would have expected dedicated cabling rather than rivets


In former times, bonding straps would have been used if a unit is secured with fasteners because they can become loose. They are not required if the unit is permanently secured using rivets.

----------


## Backspin

*Miami International Airport turns into slugfest after massive brawl breaks out*Miami International Airport turns into slugfest after massive brawl breaks out | Fox News

----------


## lom

^ massive, eh?

----------


## misskit

*PM Says No Financial Support For Struggling THAI*

Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha on Friday denied reports that the government, through the Finance Ministry, would allocate 50 billion baht to recapitalise financially struggling Thai Airways International Plc (THAI).


He was responding to reports the carrier would again become a state enterprise through the re-acquisition of the ministry’s majority stake in the airline.


The prime minister said THAI is currently moving through the debt rehabilitation process.


“I have decided that the government will not involve itself in the work of the rehabilitation plan administrators. The government will not provide any financial support. When the rehabilitation plan begins to be implemented, we’ll then decide how to proceed,” Gen Chan-o-cha said.


The airline lost its state-owned status last year when the Finance Ministry reduced its stake to under 50%, to help ease the debt-rehabilitation process.


Previously, several cabinet ministers were concerned the government would need to guarantee a loan worth billions of baht to prop up THAI if it were to come under the state enterprise umbrella again.


Reportedly supporting THAI’s reinstatement as a state enterprise were Finance Minister Arkhom Termpittayapaisith and Deputy Prime Minister Supattanapong Punmeechaow, who also heads the government’s economic team.


They argued reinstatement, which would require the Finance Ministry to become the majority shareholder again, would boost the airline’s financial strength and its bargaining power with creditors.


On Wednesday, creditors postponed a vote on THAI’s debt-restructuring plan until next week.


The vote, to be held next Wednesday will decide whether the airline, burdened by debts exceeding 300 billion baht, can stay in business. The airline needs more than 50% of creditors to accept its plan.


Pantip Sripimol, director-general of the State Enterprise Policy Office, said this week’s vote was delayed after more than 10 creditors called for the plan to be amended.


One issue involves getting the Finance Ministry, still THAI’s biggest shareholder, to guarantee loans for the airline to make it easier for it to borrow and more viable to sustain the company.


But before the ministry can act as a loan guarantor, it must boost its take back to over 50%, which would make THAI a state enterprise again.


Calls to reinstate the Finance Ministry as the majority shareholder have come under fire from critics who fear it would be too much of a financial burden.


Currently, the ministry and the Government Savings Bank together hold 49.9% of THAI’s shares.


The airline, which suffered a record loss of 141 billion baht last year, is reportedly seeking a deferment of bond repayments for six years and a waiver of unpaid loan interest.


PM Says No Financial Support For Struggling THAI | Chiang Mai One

----------


## misskit

*U.S. Airlines May Start Weighing Passengers At The Gate*

U.S. airlines may need to start weighing passengers in order to comply with FAA rules. For safety reasons, carriers need to calculate an aircraft’s weight and balance, and it has to be within allowable limits for the plane. However the assumptions they’ve been using for passengers are outdated. Americans are getting fatter, and the federal government wants airlines to find out how much fatter their passengers have gotten, at least for smaller aircraft.


The FAA realizes that passenger weight can vary by route and airlines may want to document this difference.
Standard weights may not be appropriate for smaller planes, with smaller sample size and greater likelihood of variance from average.
Airlines can use standard weights published by the CDC for larger aircraft, with variance for winter and summer based on greater weight assumptions for clothing in the winter. However they outline a method for smaller aircraft to determine “[a]ctual passenger and bag weights” and to determine whether aircraft up to 70 seats should be considered small or large for this exercise.


MORE U.S. Airlines May Start Weighing Passengers At The Gate - View from the Wing

----------


## misskit

^ Once I was on a small turboprop with some co-workers going to a meeting. Two of my co-workers were a married couple sitting together and probably weighted over 600 lbs. between the two of them. The pilot came back and made one sit in the front seat and one sit in the back seat before take off. Had never even thought of weight and balances before that trip.

----------


## Shutree

> *U.S. Airlines May Start Weighing Passengers At The Gate*
> 
> 
> The FAA realizes that passenger weight can vary by route


Too right. I remember my first visit to Hawaii. I was young and slim and frankly resented the luggage weight restrictions when I was surrounded by passengers who were each carrying 100lbs plus more than I weighed.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^ Once I was on a small turboprop with some co-workers going to a meeting. Two of my co-workers were a married couple sitting together and probably weighted over 600 lbs. between the two of them. The pilot came back and made one sit in the front seat and one sit in the back seat before take off. Had never even thought of weight and balances before that trip.


More than a few aircraft have been brought down by improper baggage loading or insecure cargo shifting during takeoff.

This one out of Bagram was notable. They reckon the cargo slid to the back and damaged flight controls, but I don't think they would have been able to do much about it anyway.

----------


## misskit

*Thai Airways Selling Direct Flights To Phuket From 4 European Cities To Test Demand*

Thai Airways has started selling direct flights from four cities in Europe to Phuket as the province counts down to its planned quarantine-free reopening in July, with hundreds of tour agents invited to take experimental trips during the third quarter to test the scheme.


However, with the cabinet on Wednesday extending a nationwide state of emergency until 31st July, all services to the island have to be conducted as semi-commercial flights, requiring passengers to obtain a certificate of entry prior to arrival as part of COVID-19 containment measures.


Siripakorn Cheawsamoot, deputy governor for Europe, Africa, the Middle East and the Americas at the Tourism Authority of Thailand (TAT), said tourism demand during the initial stage of the Phuket sandbox is expected to be soft because of tight travel restrictions in both Thailand and some tourist origin countries.


For instance, a travel advisory in the UK rates Thailand on the amber list, mandating travellers returning from Thailand to quarantine at home for 10 days.


Even though vaccinated tourists are exempt from quarantine in Phuket, they may be reticent to travel if it means isolation for many days when they return, said Mr Cheawsamoot.


Most of them will likely resume travel once the situation in Thailand improves, he said.


TAT is working with Thai Airways in preparation for the July reopening, with the flag carrier launching ticket sales to test the market, with one returning flight for each route per week.


Thai Airways offers direct flights from Paris, Frankfurt, London and Copenhagen to Phuket via a triangular pattern.


Inbound flights from Europe will fly direct to Phuket airport before stopping over at Suvarnabhumi airport for departure.


The flag carrier also plans two routes from Asian cities – Seoul and Taipei – to Phuket from July, while the schedule from Tokyo still requires confirmation.


Mr Cheawsamoot said the agency plans to work with Thai Airways and other international airlines to bring hundreds of overseas tour agents to Phuket, but as a small group at different times.


In addition to feedback on the entry process and travel experiences during the pandemic, Phuket wants to hear from these guests about new tourism products that include local stakeholders, such as farmers and local communities.


“Our travel surveys in several countries found tourists still want to come to Thailand, but seek unique quality experiences,” he said.


“Phuket must strictly follow the plan to improve its standards this year.”


For the Phuket sandbox, TAT plans to scale down its marketing to a city level instead of designated areas around the country, as several parts of Thailand still report high daily infections.


The agency admitted the destination has a geographic advantage.


Islands such as Phuket and Samui have limited entry points, allowing them to better control the flow of tourists and administer health screening measures more efficiently, said Mr Cheawsamoot.

Thai Airways Selling Direct Flights To Phuket From 4 European Cities To Test Demand | Chiang Mai News - Daily News Stories From Chiang Mai & Thailand

----------


## harrybarracuda

Well they are talking the talk, but can they pull it off? I can see a lot of people trying to use this to get round quarantine.

----------


## lom

I assume that Phuket will have the same type of quarantine as Samui

Draft scheme to reopen Ko Samui from July 2021 for vaccinated visitors from low/medium risk countries: 

 Day 1 quarantine inside room 
 Day 2-3 Outside activities within hotel
 Day 4-7 travel with guided tours ("sealed routes")

PCR test day 1 and day 4, checking body temperature every day.
After day 7 free to travel wherever they want in Thailand.

----------


## misskit

Etihad Airways Resumes Flights to Rabat and Phuket

On the back of quarantine free travel to Morocco, and back into the emirate of Abu Dhabi, Etihad Airways is restarting services to Rabat on 23 June 2021.


As Phuket prepares to reopen to international vaccinated travellers, Etihad is recommencing services to the popular holiday destination on 1 July 2021.


Fares from Abu Dhabi to Rabat and Phuket start from just AED 995 return in Economy. This fare is limited on a first come first served basis. The sale starts today, Wednesday, 2 June 2021 and ends on Friday, 4 June 2021.


Guests who book between 5 and 9 June 2021 will enjoy return fares to Rabat starting from AED 1,995 in Economy and Business fares from AED 9,495. Travellers can jet off to Phuket in Business from AED 6,995. Sale fares are valid for travel until 20 November 2021.


The Rabat service will operate with an initial twice weekly flight and Phuket will be three times a week, using a Boeing 787-9 Dreamliner, offering Economy Space and Neighbour-free seating options.


To simplify the travel experience and provide additional peace of mind, Etihad recently launched Verified to Fly, allowing guests to validate their Covid-19 travel documents before arriving at the airport. Travellers who use Verified to Fly can enjoy fast track check-in at the airport by going to the dedicated Verified to Fly desk for a quicker and smoother experience. To use the Verified to Fly service, guests can sign-up by visiting Manage my Booking and will receive further information on how to submit their documents.


For more convenient travel options, guests can also check in for their Etihad flight from the comfort of their own home by visiting etihad.com/homecheckin up to seven hours before their flight. This means passengers can check in their bags, choose their seat and collect their boarding pass and luggage tags from their home in Abu Dhabi. Once at Abu Dhabi International Airport, all non-transit passengers who have used the home check-in service can skip the queues bag-free, making the airport journey seamless. Luggage will need to be collected at the destination baggage belt.


Flying to, from, and via Abu Dhabi is supported by the airline’s fully redesigned sanitisation and safety programme, Etihad Wellness, which ensures the highest standards of hygiene are maintained at every stage of the customer journey.


Those wishing to book are advised to visit etihad.com and the app to view their options, and to remain informed on the appropriate entry regulations at their end destination. Flights are also available for booking through the mobile app, by calling the Etihad Airways Contact Centre on +971 600 555 666 (UAE) or through a local or online travel agency. A list of other local Etihad contact centres is available at etihad.com/contacts.

https://www.albawaba.com/business/pr...phuket-1431084

----------


## misskit

*United Airlines Wants to Bring Back Supersonic Air Travel*

The era of supersonic commercial flights came to an end when the Concorde completed its last trip between New York and London in 2003, but the allure of ultrafast air travel never quite died out.


President Biden mused about supersonic flights when discussing his infrastructure plan in April. And on Thursday, United Airlines said it was ordering 15 jets that can travel faster than the speed of sound from Boom Supersonic, a start-up in Denver. The airline said it had an option to increase its order by up to 35 planes.


Boom, which has raised $270 million from venture capital firms and other investors, said it planned to introduce aircraft in 2025 and start flight tests in 2026. It expects the plane, which it calls the Overture, to carry passengers before the end of the decade.


But the start-up’s plans have already slipped at least once, and it will have to overcome many obstacles, including securing approval from the Federal Aviation Administration and regulators in other countries. Even established manufacturers have stumbled when introducing new or redesigned planes. Boeing’s 737 Max was grounded for nearly two years after two crashes.


The deal is United’s latest attempt to position itself as a risk taker shaking up an industry that is just getting back on its feet after a devastating pandemic. The airline announced a $20 million investment in an electric air taxi start-up, Archer, in February, and it is working on a “steady drumbeat” of more such bets, said Michael Leskinen, who heads corporate development at United.


“We are really confident in the future,” Mr. Leskinen said. “Aerospace takes a long time to innovate. And so if you don’t start setting these opportunities out now, you will have missed them.”


United and Boom would not disclose financial details, including the cost of each plane, but Mr. Leskinen said the economics should be about the same as a new Boeing 787, a wide-body plane that airlines typically use on international routes. United has committed to buying the planes if Boom manages to produce them, secure regulatory approvals and hit other targets, like meeting its sustainability requirements.


Boom also plans to make planes for Japan Airlines, an investor in the company.


What is not clear is whether Boom has solved the problems that forced British Airways and Air France to stop using the Concorde on trans-Atlantic flights — high costs, safety concerns and flagging demand.


“There was no airline interest,” Henry Harteveldt, a travel industry analyst and consultant, said about why supersonic flights languished. “And a big part of the lack of airline interest was there were no engines that were commercially available that would allow a supersonic jet to be economically viable.”


Two decades later, some start-up companies, including Boom and Spike Aerospace, are pushing ahead with new designs and plans.


Boom, which is working with Rolls-Royce, the British jet engine maker, said its plane would be more efficient than the Concorde; United estimates it will be 75 percent more efficient. Boom’s planes will not be as noisy as the Concorde because their engines will create a sonic boom only when flying over water “when there’s no one to hear it,” said Boom’s chief executive, Blake Scholl, who previously worked at Amazon and Groupon.


In recent years, many people have also grown increasingly concerned about air travel’s contribution to climate change. Supersonic jets are expected to use more fuel than regular jets per passenger per mile, according to experts.


Mr. Scholl said the engines on Boom’s planes would rely entirely on sustainable aviation fuel, which can be made from waste, plants and other organic matter. Experts say such fuel could reduce emissions, but its supply is limited, it is expensive and its use does not eliminate greenhouse gas emissions.


United said it was too early to know how much it would charge for the flights, which it would run out of its hubs in Newark and San Francisco to start. But another big question mark about the plane is how many people will be willing to spend the thousands of dollars that each ticket on a supersonic flight is likely to cost.


United has long focused on business travelers, including by adding flights to Israel, China and other destinations popular with executives and by offering more business class seats on its planes. Mr. Leskinen called the idea of supersonic travel a “really powerful tool for business.”


“You can have a business meeting and still be home to have dinner with your family,” he said.


But corporate and international travel is expected to rebound slowly from the pandemic, and some experts say it might not recover fully for years because companies have realized that they can be effective without as many in-person meetings.


“The key to the success of supersonic transportation is the overlooked, underappreciated corporate travel manager, who is probably relegated to one of the worst offices in his or her company — and his primary task is to minimize corporate spending on business travel,” said Mr. Harteveldt.


If flights save a third of the travel time but also cost a third more, travel managers may end up saying, “I don’t know if we can justify that,” he said.


United Airlines Wants to Bring Back Supersonic Air Travel – DNyuz

----------


## David48atTD

United Airlines will buy 15 ultrafast airplanes from start-up Boom Supersonic


Credit


Credit

Key Points

The carrier is buying 15 planes from Boom Supersonic with the option to purchase 35 more at some point.Booms first commercial supersonic jet, the Overture, has not been built or certified yet.Boom  is targeting the start of passenger service in 2029 with a plane that  could fly at Mach 1.7 and cut some flight times in half. 






United will buy 15 ultrafast airplanes from start-up Boom Supersonic

----------


## aging one

Hey David mate, did you see the post by Kitt just above yours? :Smile:

----------


## PlanK

^
I think he did, and added some confirmation and photos.


As to where the demand will come from for these services?  Is it possible that the growing green movement is enough to shame private jet owners onto fast commercial airlines?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Hey David mate, did you see the post by Kitt just above yours?


His post expands on the previous one. I suspect that's why he did it.

----------


## lom

EU stops Belarus flights 
  Belarusian aircraft will be banned from flying over EU territory and landing at EU airports. 
The decision is said to have been made by EU at ambassadorial level on Friday, according to information to the news agency Reuters. 
The ban will take effect on Saturday night.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> I assume that Phuket will have the same type of quarantine as Samui
> 
> Draft scheme to reopen Ko Samui from July 2021 for vaccinated visitors from low/medium risk countries: 
> 
>  Day 1 quarantine inside room 
>  Day 2-3 Outside activities within hotel
>  Day 4-7 travel with guided tours ("sealed routes")
> 
> PCR test day 1 and day 4, checking body temperature every day.
> After day 7 free to travel wherever they want in Thailand.


This probably isn't the best thread if you want to discuss that topic, that's why the mods pinned this one:

Thailand quarantine and entry conditions

Although there hasn't really been any "news" on the topic other than the planned Phuket sandbox, which depends on vaccinations that are already way behind.

----------


## harrybarracuda

SINGAPORE: The Association of Southeast Asian Nations (Asean) and the European Union have concluded the world’s first bloc-to-bloc air transport agreement, Asean said, to allow their airlines to easier expand services to and within the respective regions.

The agreement, once formalised, will mean that airlines of the combined 37 member states can fly any number of non-stop flights between countries in both regions, Asean said on Friday.

Additionally, airlines will be permitted to fly up to 14 weekly passenger services with one stop within the other region to pick up passengers on the return leg. There will no limits on flights with one stop to pick up cargo.

The agreement “provides essential guarantees of fair competition for our European airlines and industry, while strengthening reciprocal prospects for trade and investment”, said Adina Valean, the European Commissioner for Transport, according to the Asean statement.

EU and Asean reach landmark aviation deal

----------


## misskit

*Heavier Passengers on Planes Mean New Safety Limits for Airlines

*
*A change in an FAA weight rule could result in more fliers getting bumped from flights and more baggage delays*


Passengers keep getting bigger. Now airlines must account more accurately for that.


The Federal Aviation Administration is requiring updates to passenger and baggage weight estimates that airlines use to keep each flight within airplane safety limits. Each U.S. airline must submit a plan by June 12 explaining which average weights for passengers and baggage they’ll use, down to phones and clothing, and how they estimated those weights. The FAA must approve each airline’s plan.


Airline officials say the weight estimates used for passengers and baggage are going up between 5% and 10%. That will affect some flights, possibly requiring that more passengers get bumped or more baggage left behind. Impact is likelier on unusually hot days and in cities higher above sea level, when the weight an airplane can safely carry is reduced because wings won’t generate as much lift. Flights into stiff headwinds that require more fuel also may face more weight issues.


Some airlines declined to talk about passenger weight and how they’ll handle the updated requirement. Others say they’re already taking steps to minimize any disruption this summer when the adjusted weight rules take effect.

MORE Heavier Passengers on Planes Mean New Safety Limits for Airlines - WSJ

----------


## misskit

*Seven global airlines to fly direct to Thai holiday island Phuket*


BANGKOK -- Seven international airlines will operate direct flights to Phuket in southern Thailand, starting in July, bringing foreign tourists to the resort island, with the Thai government accepting visitors vaccinated for COVID-19 without quarantines.


Thai Airways International will focus on welcoming vacationers from five European cities. Flights from Paris; Frankfurt, Germany; and Copenhagen to Phuket will begin July 2, according to the national flag carrier's chief commercial officer, Nond Kalinta. Flights from London and Zurich will resume the next day.


British Airways, Cathey Pacific, Etihad Airways, Qatar Airways, Emirates, and Israel's El Al will operate flights to Phuket beginning in July, according to Yuthasak Supasorn, governor of the Tourism Authority of Thailand.


Thailand is set to conduct a "sandbox experiment" from July 1, using Phuket as a testing ground to welcome vaccinated foreign visitors. Tourists with proof of vaccination and a negative COVID-19 test result can start their vacations immediately without sealing themselves in a hotel room, as visitors to other parts of Thailand are required to do.


Travelers must be fully vaccinated for at least 14 days before departure and show a negative test result within 72 hours of boarding their flight. If a mandatory test on the fifth day of their stay is negative, they will be allowed to take a day trip off the island.

The experiment's success is crucial for Thailand, as it will demonstrate the ability of Southeast Asia's second-largest economy to balance public health and fostering economic recovery.


The Tourism Authority of Thailand is forecasting the arrival of 129,000 foreign visitors in the first three months of the experiment. If the program goes smoothly, vaccinated tourists will be allowed to travel to places such as Bangkok, Pattaya and Chiang Mai, starting in October, and throughout the country in 2022.


A lack of tourists was the main reason the Thai economy shrank 6.1% in 2020. Tourism and related businesses accounted for a fifth of Thailand's gross domestic product in pre-COVID times. The Thai tourism industry has high hopes that the experiment will help revive the sector.


Representatives of several travel agencies in Thailand told Nikkei Asia that the pilot program is drawing strong interest from European travelers, many of whom typically spend weeks during the summer in tropical resorts.


Many in the industry had feared that the experiment could be postponed due to a third wave of the COVID-19 pandemic that the kingdom has been battling since March. Over 2,000 cases a day have been reported since mid-May. However, on Tuesday, the cabinet gave a provisional green light to begin the reopening program in July, suggesting that the current level of local infections will not stop the government from conducting the experiment.


About 400,000 people, more than 60% of Phuket's residents, have been vaccinated for the coronavirus, according to Prime Minister Prayuth Chan-ocha.


The Tourism Authority of Thailand expects Singapore Airlines, Hong Kong Airlines, Taiwan's EVA Air, Korean Air, its budget subsidiary Jin Air and French-Dutch carrier KLM to join the seven participating airlines soon.


It is imperative for airlines to attract a strong flow of foreign tourists to Phuket to maintain their routes profitably. This is especially true for cash-strapped companies like Thai Airways, which is currently under court-supervised rehabilitation. Thailand's Central Bankruptcy Court is scheduled to vote on June 15 on whether to approve a rehabilitation plan submitted by the airline.


Seven global airlines to fly direct to Thai holiday island Phuket - ChinaGoSmart is China’s most popular English web magazine!

----------


## Backspin

Something strange is going on at BA. Apparently 4 pilots have died, no explanation. 

Official British Airways twitter account :

Sadly four members of our pilot community passed away recently. Our thoughts are with their family and friends. However, there is no truth whatsoever in the claims on social media speculating that the four deaths are linked. Julie

https://twitter.com/British_Airways/...631007748?s=20

----------


## Troy

> Something strange is going on at BA. Apparently 4 pilots have died, no explanation.


Ever heard of M. Poisson?

Prussian soldiers killed by horse kicks, 1898, comes to mind.

Nothing strange at all, move along please.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Could be car crashes, heart attacks, Covid, suicide, accidents in the home.

But of course the fucking antivax wankers are all over it like a cheap suit and skidmark is off and wanking.

----------


## OhOh

*Boeing’s 737 MAX 10 takes off on maiden flight after fleet returns to skies following grounding over 2 deadly crashes*

18 Jun, 2021 18:56

_"__The new Boeing 737 MAX 10 took off for its first-ever flight on  Friday, just six months after regulators allowed the rest of the plane’s  ‘family’ of aircraft to return to the skies in the wake of two deadly  crashes.     _ _The plane departed from the Renton Municipal airport near Seattle on Friday morning after months of safety testing.
_
_Boeing’s latest model, which is the biggest in its single-aisle MAX range, is reported to be set to enter service in 2023.
_
_Footage  posted online on Wednesday showed the MAX 10 performing taxi tests on  the runway. A photo shared by a Reuters eyewitness then showed the plane  airborne, while another video appeared to show the aircraft taking off.
_
_The  flight comes after Boeing’s entire MAX fleet was grounded for 20 months  in 2019 after two of the planes crashed, killing everyone onboard.
_
_A Lion Air flight in October 2018 killed 189 people when the plane  crashed into the Java Sea shortly after it took off from Jakarta,  Indonesia. In March 2019 an Ethiopian Airlines flight then killed 157  people when it crashed near Addis Ababa Bole International Airport  shortly after take-off.
_
_The Federal Aviation Administration, the US airlines regulator, cleared the MAX fleet for take-off at the end of 2020
__T
he MAX 10 will be the first Boeing plane used to test new so-called  synthetic sensors, which the company agreed to fit to its planes at the  request of European regulators._
_
The technology was called for  after faulty flight instruments were identified as a causal factor in  the two fatal crashes. The sensors will ultimately be retrofitted to the  rest of the MAX fleet."
_
_ Boeing’s 737 MAX 10 takes off on maiden flight after fleet returns to skies following grounding over 2 deadly crashes — RT USA News_

Will the planes, awaiting the "new sensors", be identified in some way, prior to ticket purchase/boarding.

A large red blood stain, surrounded with $ bills, painted on the fuselage. With the words, "Profit Before Passenger Lives" underneath?

Will the pilots take additional mandatory training that includes "what to do if xxx, yyy or zzz happens"?

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Will the pilots take additional mandatory training that includes "what to do if xxx, yyy or zzz happens"?


Exclusive video from the 737MAX Pilot training course.

----------


## Backspin

> Could be car crashes, heart attacks, Covid, suicide, accidents in the home.
> 
> But of course the fucking antivax wankers are all over it like a cheap suit and skidmark is off and wanking.


I'm  not anti vaxx you clown

----------


## Saint Willy

> Many in the industry had feared that the experiment could be postponed due to a third wave of the COVID-19 pandemic that the kingdom has been battling since March. Over 2,000 cases a day have been reported since mid-May. However, on Tuesday, the cabinet gave a provisional green light to begin the reopening program in July, suggesting that the current level of local infections will not stop the government from conducting the experiment.



what could possibly go wrong?

----------


## OhOh

*FAA Denies Boeing Permission To Move Forward In Certifying 777X Due To Serious Flight Test Incident*_"If it's not one Boeing jet malfunctioning, it's another.

_
_With  Boeing facing an uphill climb in restoring the public's confidence in  its crash-prone 737MAX, the aerospace giant is facing fresh troubles,  this time involving the updated version of the long-haul 777X jet which  is facing additional testing because of what U.S. regulators called a  serious test-flight incident and multiple other issues with software and  inadequate data"_

Citing a serious flight test incident and lack of design maturity, FAA slows Boeing 777X certification | The Seattle Times

----------


## Troy

^ Boeing haven't managed to explain why the 777X had an "Uncommanded pitch event"...yikes!

----------


## Klondyke

*Boeing 737 cargo plane makes emergency water landing off Hawaii

*July 2 (Reuters) - A decades-old Boeing Co (BA.N) 737-200 cargo airplane with two people on board made an emergency nighttime landing in the Pacific Ocean off the coast of Honolulu, Hawaii, early on Friday, the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration said.

The FAA said both crew members were rescued, citing preliminary information.

"The pilots had reported engine trouble and were attempting to return to Honolulu when they were forced to land the aircraft in the water," the FAA said in a statement.

The FAA and National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) will investigate.

Transair Flight 810 departed Honolulu at 1:33 a.m. local time bound for Maui's Kahului airport but quickly turned back toward Honolulu, according to aviation data from FlightAware.com.

Shortly after, the Coast Guard responded to reports of the downed plane south of the island of Oahu with two people on board. Around 2:30 a.m., a Coast Guard helicopter located the debris field and found one of the crew members clinging to the plane's tail. That person was airlifted by helicopter to a hospital.

The other survivor was spotted on top of some floating packages and was picked up by a Honolulu Fire Department rescue boat for transport to shore, according to a spokesperson from the U.S. Coast Guard.

Both were being evaluated by medical personnel and their current condition was unknown.

The crew knew they were in trouble.

"We've lost number one engine," one of the pilots told Honolulu air traffic control in a recording posted on LiveATC, an audio streaming site that broadcasts air traffic control communications.

"We are going to need the fire department ... We're going to lose the other engine, too. It's running very hot."

Boeing said it was closely monitoring the situation and was in contact with the NTSB. The airplane was built by Boeing in 1975, according to FAA records. The plane was first delivered to Pacific Western Airlines and joined Transair's fleet in 2014, according to Flightradar24.com.

The plane was equipped with Pratt & Whitney (RTX.N) engines. Pratt & Whitney said it was supporting the NTSB's investigation.

Rhoades Aviation Inc does business as Transair, which is one of Hawaii’s largest air cargo carriers and has been in business since 1982. It has a fleet of five Boeing 737s that fly daily to all major Hawaiian island destinations, according to its website.

Marsh & McLennan Cos Inc (MMC.N), the insurance broker for Boeing, declined to comment.

Shares of Boeing were trading slightly lower on Friday afternoon on the New York Stock Exchange.

Boeing 737 cargo plane makes emergency water landing off Hawaii | Reuters

N810TA - Boeing 737-275C(A)  - Rhoades Aviation - Flightradar24

----------


## harrybarracuda

This might cheer some up.




> The COVID-19 pandemic has impacted air travel worldwide. This in turn has affected your choices to redeem your mileage. We understand your concerns during this situation. Therefore, THAI has now extended expiring miles in any quarter of 2021 and 2022 to be valid for award redemption until 31 December 2023. This is an automatic process and no further action is required from you.

----------


## harrybarracuda

TWENTY-EIGHT people on board a passenger plane have been killed after it crashed into a coastal cliff while it was preparing to land in Russia's Far East in poor visibility.

The An-26 plane with 22 passengers and six crew members, flying from the city of Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky to the town of Palana on the Okhotsk Sea coast, missed a scheduled communication and disappeared from radar as it was on approach for landing.

Emergency officials first said they had located the An-26 crash site in the Sea of Okhotsk. 

But it has now has emerged it crashed into a cliff.

Sources in Kamchakta said they did not expect to find survivors in the An-26 wreckage.

Russia plane crash - Passenger plane crashes into cliff killing all 28 on board while landing in '''poor conditions'''

----------


## Takeovers

Wrong thread, deleted.

----------


## harrybarracuda

That must have been some shit is all I can say.




> A British Airways flight was forced to turn around because of a "smelly poo".
> 
> The plane was heading from Heathrow to Dubai on Thursday - a seven-hour flight.
> 
> Abhishek Sachdev, who was on board tweeted: "Insane. Our BA flight to Dubai returned back to Heathrow because of a smelly poo in the toilet."
> 
> He told a newspaper: "The pilot made an announcement requesting senior cabin crew, and we knew something was a bit odd.
> 
> "About 10 minutes later he said 'you may have noticed there's a quite pungent smell coming from one of the toilets'.
> ...


*

BA flight forced to land early because of smelly poo - BBC News*

----------


## helge

:Birthday: 

SAS is 75 years old today.

Hasn't been cheap for part owners like Lom and I.

 :Sad: 

Happy birthday

----------


## misskit

*UAE lifts ban on transit flights from India, Pakistan, other countries*

DUBAI, Aug 3 (Reuters) - The United Arab Emirates will lift a ban on transit passenger traffic from India, Pakistan, Nigeria and other countries from Aug. 5, the National Emergency and Crisis Management Authority (NCEMA) said on Tuesday.


The UAE, a major international travel hub, has banned passengers from many South Asian and African countries for several months due to the coronavirus pandemic.


NCEMA said on Twitter that passengers travelling from countries where flights had been suspended would be able to transit through its airports from Thursday as long as they present negative PCR tests taken 72 hours prior to departure.


Final destination approval would also have to be provided, the authority said, adding that UAE departure airports would arrange separate lounges for transiting passengers.


The transit ban had also included Nepal, Sri Lanka, and Uganda.


NCEMA said that a ban on entry to the UAE for passengers from these countries would also be lifted for those with valid residencies and who are certified by Emirati authorities as fully vaccinated.


However, they would need to apply for online entry permits prior to travelling and would need to present a negative PCR test taken 48 hours prior to departure.


Those working in the medical, educational or government sectors in the Gulf Arab state as well as those studying or completing medical treatment in the UAE would be exempt from the vaccination requirement as would humanitarian cases.

UAE lifts ban on transit flights from India, Pakistan, other countries | Reuters

----------


## harrybarracuda

Well they already have Delta, so horse, stable door, etc.

----------


## harrybarracuda

If they're selling that building in Chiang Mai's old city, that is a shame. Mind you I've never seen more than a quarter of the desks manned at any time anyway, so it is far more space than they need.

What chance a new office in Central Airport?




> Thai Airways International (THAI) is selling 10 properties and buildings around the country in a bid to raise funds to rehabilitate its ailing business, according to an airline source.
> 
> The source said the carrier is looking to offload its largest batch yet of assets to boost cash flow as the company is seeking to restructure 245 billion baht of debt through payment extensions, interest waivers and debt-to-equity conversions.
> 
> The airline has also introduced leave-without-pay schemes and pay cuts for staff.
> 
> The 10 properties and buildings slated for sale are scattered in Bangkok and the provinces including Khon Kaen, Chiang Mai, Chiang Rai, Phuket and Phitsanulok.
> 
> Buildings to be put on the market are those that served as airline offices.
> ...


Thai Airways selling assets to raise cash

----------


## Takeovers

Il-112 Iljushin new cargo turboprop plane in deadly crash.




3 Dead After Russian Military Transport Plane Prototype Crashes Near Moscow - The Moscow Times

----------


## harrybarracuda

I think they're testing new fighters as well  :rofl:

----------


## Takeovers

> I think they're testing new fighters as well



Seems it is not only spaceflight that is in a downward spiral.

One of the problems is they don't get top talent for access to coffee and bananas and top schools for their children any more. Top talent has alternatives. It's not that there is no more top talent in Russia any more. Though much of it came from Ukraine.

----------


## OhOh

*C919 launch rings alarm bells for Airbus, Boeing       * 

The C919 will offer space for 158 to 168 passengers, depending on business class and economy class configurationsThe  major elements of the C919 such as the nose, fuselage, outer wing,  vertical stabilizer, horizontal stabilizer and movable surfaces have  been independently designed by COMAC. 

Dave Makichuk  August 29, 2021

_"Chinas wide-body C919 aircraft will soon be flying above the clouds   safe, inexpensive, comfortable and environmentally friendly  a clear  message to powerful western aircraft manufacturers. 
_
_In the remaining four months of this year, an aircraft could be approved that could one day pose a threat to Airbus and Boeing. 
_
_And that comes as no surprise to Tobias Grosche, a professor at the  University of Worms and an expert in flight planning and passenger  demand forecasts.
_
_The fact that the first COMAC aircraft is about to receive  national approval is only the logical step in the efforts of the Chinese  government, also in the aviation sector, towards the wester to unlock  countries,  Grosche told the Business Insider in a special report.
_
_COMAC is the abbreviation for an amalgamation of Chinese companies  that is likely to be viewed critically in Hamburg, Toulouse and Seattle.  
_
_It stands for Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China and brings  together design and research centers, universities, and aluminum and  steel manufacturers. 
_
_The C919 will offer space for 158 to 168 passengers, depending on how  many business class and how many economy class seats the airlines want  to install. 
_
_For comparison: the Airbus A320 flies for Lufthansa with space for up  to 168 passengers, the Boeing 737 has space for around 150 passengers,  i.e. similar sizes. The two types of aircraft are also similar in terms  of range, the report said. 
_
_Depending on the version, the Airbus A320 can travel up to 5,700  kilometers, the Chinese counterpart C919 promises a range of up to 5,555  kilometers._ 
_This means that the Chinese aircraft could, for example, reach all  national destinations from Shanghai in eastern China  and get even  further. 
_
_Beijing has made no secret of its desire to break the western giants  duopoly, helping smooth the C919s development with up to US$72 billion  in state-related support, according to estimates from US think-tank the  Center for Strategic and International Studies.
_
_According to Simple Flying,  the Shanghai Aircraft Airworthiness Certification Center of CAAC (SAACC)  signed and issued the first Type Inspection Authorization (TIA) for the  C919 program._ 
_This means that the plane has officially entered into authority certification flight testing._ 
_However, natural icing trials, which were set to take place in March 2021, have had to be postponed until fall._
_
While the aircraft is expected to be approved and will start  scheduled service with OTT Airlines, a subsidiary of the largest airline  in Asia, China Eastern Airlines, it is doubtful that this  first-generation C919 will challenge the worlds aircraft manufacturers,  Business Insider reported.
_
_Not yet, anyway._
_Says Grosche: A second or third generation could be dangerous for Airbus and Boeing._
_Ultimately, its an economic question. If a Chinese model is  efficient and safe, I see no reason why western airlines should not also  operate these aircraft. _ 
_
After all, Lufthansa, for example, not only has Airbus and Boeing  aircraft in its fleet, but also models from its subsidiary Cityline the  former Canadian aircraft manufacturer Bombardier and the Brazilian  Embraer. 
_
_Furthermore, Grosche is certain that COMAC will one day be able to offer the C919 for sale at comparatively cheap prices._ 
_
Even Guillaume Faury, Airbus chief executive, has acknowledged  COMACs rise, telling an industry event we will probably go from a  duopoly to a triopoly, at least on the single aisle, by the end of the  decade._
_
Overall, a total of 815 orders have been placed by 28 customers.  China Easterns Big Three counterparts  China Southern and Air China  will also deploy the C919, along with other powerhouses such as Joy Air  and Hainan Airlines.
__
There has also been some international interest.
_
_The head of the low-cost airline Ryanair, Michael OLeary, announced  ten years ago that he wanted to support alternatives to Boeing and  Airbus and signed a non-binding letter of intent with COMAC, the report  said._
_
And while Boeing and Airbus have the advantage of having been on the  road around the world for decades, China, which historically plays the  long game, is looking much further into the future.
_
_The type CR929 is supposed to compete with long-haul airliners like the Airbus A330 and the Boeing 787. 
_
_And the type CR929-600 could have a range of up to 12,000 kilometers and space for up to 280 passengers._ 
_
What are Boeing and and Airbus up against? The C919 will be  state-of-the-art, both inside and out, along with some refreshing  updates.
_
_While the major elements of the airplane such as the nose, fuselage,  outer wing, vertical stabilizer, horizontal stabilizer and movable  surfaces have been independently designed by COMAC, the company has  enlisted Western expertise, notably that of French high-tech industrial  group and aero-engine manufacturer Safran, which is producing the  aircrafts cabin and nacelles, CNN Travel reported.
_
_The C919s LEAP-1C engines are being produced by CFM, a joint venture  between US engine-maker GE Aviation and Safran. Subsidiary Safran Cabin  says it will supply the lavatories, galleys and cockpit doors for the  C919. 
_
_The company told CNN that the lavatories are larger than what is now commonly seen on competing aircraft.
_
_That will be welcome news for passengers forced to do contortions in modern airplane toilet compartments.
_
_ More spacious lavatories would mean it would be possible to move  around with less contact with surfaces, and it could also make cleaning  and maintenance a less onerous task for the crew that scramble on board  between flights to disinfect the toilets  a boon in the Covid era.
_
_The back of the aircraft will feature a full-sized galley with ample space for the flight crew to work._ 
_
Safran says it recognizes that many of its airline partners based in  China will fly these aircraft on short routes within China, which makes  meal service a challenge.
_
_To address the compressed flight times on domestic routes, Safran  says its cabin designers have come up with an ergonomic galley design,  with large work surfaces, equipped with easy-to-maneuver Hybrite S  trolleys, which help the crew get meals, snacks and drinks out to  passengers quickly.
_
_Spacious galleys are also likely to be a selling point worldwide as  airlines work towards complying with new inflight catering guidelines  set out by the Airline Catering Association._
_As for environmental concerns, Safran says it has made advancements  in its composite structures which enable interiors to be both  lightweight and durable, helping to reduce carbon footprint while  withstanding the rigors of short-haul service.
_
_The aircrafts engines are also claimed to be more efficient._ 
_The CFM LEAP-1C engine, which was selected by COMAC as the sole  Western engine option for the C919, offers a 15% reduction in fuel  consumption and CO2 emissions versus current engines, and up to a 50%  margin on NOx emissions, says Safran. 
_
_The engines will also mitigate noise in and around the airports where the C919 operates._
_The C919s cockpit is being developed by the Chinese Aeronautical  Radio Electronics Research Institute (CARERI), and will feature  integrated 15.4-inch avionic Display Head Assembly units coming from  Barco Display Systems of Atlanta, Ga."_


C919 launch rings alarm bells for Airbus, Boeing - Asia Times

----------


## harrybarracuda

> _The company told CNN that “the lavatories are larger than what is now commonly seen on competing aircraft.”_



That's good for you hoohoo, what with you being constantly full of shit and all.

----------


## OhOh

Thank you for your post, I know you take great delight in devouring my verbal and physical evacuations.

Any comments on the post?




> C919 launch rings alarm bells for Airbus, Boeing

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Thank you for your post, I know you take great delight in devouring my verbal and physical evacuations.
> 
> Any comments on the post?


Here's one: I doubt I am the only one that's added it to the No Fly list with the MAX.

----------


## OhOh

I suspect the first few years of production will go to Chinese airlines. To iron out any tendencies to nosedive into the ground.

----------


## lom

> I suspect the first few years of production will go to Chinese airlines. To iron out any tendencies to nosedive into the ground.


Yes it would be devastating for an international sale of the aircraft if an early accident was published.
Just imagine the amount of chinesium denials and face savings that would produce..

----------


## harrybarracuda

> I suspect the first few years of production will go to Chinese airlines. To iron out any tendencies to nosedive into the ground.


They will probably use Uighurs as the test passengers.

----------


## helge

> That's good for you hoohoo, what with you being constantly full of shit and all.


Robust discussion is allowed, but posters should stay on topic and refrain from personal attacks.



> Thank you for your post, I know you take great delight in devouring my verbal and physical evacuations.
> 
> Any comments on the post?


No

He hasn't

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Robust discussion is allowed, but posters should stay on topic and refrain from personal attacks.
> 
> 
> No
> 
> He hasn't


Oh fuck off you whiny scandihooligan twat.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Not quite sure why it's doing it in the US... must owe most of its money there I suppose.




> MANILA: Philippine Airlines said on Saturday it was filing for bankruptcy in the United States to slash $2 billion in debt as it tries to survive an industry gutted by the coronavirus pandemic.
> 
> The national carrier of the Philippines said the filing will allow it to restructure contracts and cut debt by at least $2 billion while getting $655 million in fresh capital when it emerges from the Chapter 11 process.
> 
> PAL will also downsize its fleet by 25% and re-negotiate contracts to reduce lease payments.
> 
> "Philippine Airlines will continue business-as-usual operations while finalising the restructuring of our network, fleet and organisation," senior vice president and chief financial officer Nilo Thaddeus Rodriguez said in a video message.
> 
> As part of agreements reached with suppliers, lenders and lessors, Rodriguez said PAL will secure $505 million to execute the recovery plan. The money will later convert into airline equity and long-term debt.
> ...


Philippine Airlines files for bankruptcy

----------


## harrybarracuda

A documentary about Boeing's flying coffin.

----------


## DC101

> Not quite sure why it's doing it in the US... must owe most of its money there I suppose.
> 
> 
> 
> Philippine Airlines files for bankruptcy


It was much nicer than Cebu Air

----------


## OhOh

A legal case about




> Boeing's flying coffin


A patsy has been fingered:
*Former Boeing 737 MAX Chief Technical Pilot Indicted for Fraud*


Thursday, October 14, 2021

_"__A federal grand jury in the Northern District of Texas returned an  indictment today charging a former Chief Technical Pilot for Boeing with  deceiving the Federal Aviation Administrations Aircraft Evaluation  Group in connection with their evaluation of Boeings 737 MAX airplane,  and scheming to defraud Boeings U.S. based airline customers to obtain  tens of millions of dollars for Boeing.

__According to court documents, Mark A. Forkner, 49, formerly of  Washington State and currently of Keller, Texas, allegedly deceived the  FAA AEG during the agencys evaluation and certification of Boeings 737  MAX airplane. As alleged in the indictment, Forkner provided the agency  with materially false, inaccurate, and incomplete information about a  new part of the flight controls for the Boeing 737 MAX called the  Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS).

_
_Because of his alleged deception, a key document published by the FAA  AEG lacked any reference to MCAS. In turn, airplane manuals and  pilot-training materials for U.S.-based airlines lacked any reference to  MCAS  and Boeings U.S.-based airline customers were deprived of  important information when making and finalizing their decisions to pay  Boeing tens of millions of dollars for 737 MAX airplanes. 

_
_Forkner allegedly abused his position of trust by intentionally  withholding critical information about MCAS during the FAA evaluation  and certification of the 737 MAX and from Boeings U.S.‑based airline  customers, said Assistant Attorney General Kenneth A. Polite Jr. of the  Justice Departments Criminal Division. In doing so, he deprived  airlines and pilots from knowing crucial information about an important  part of the airplanes flight controls. Regulators like the FAA serve a  vital function to ensure the safety of the flying public. To anyone  contemplating criminally impeding a regulators function, this  indictment makes clear that the Justice Department will pursue the facts  and hold you accountable. 

_
_In an attempt to save Boeing money, Forkner allegedly withheld  critical information from regulators, said Acting U.S. Attorney Chad E.  Meacham for the Northern District of Texas. His callous choice to  mislead the FAA hampered the agencys ability to protect the flying  public and left pilots in the lurch, lacking information about certain  737 MAX flight controls. The Department of Justice will not tolerate  fraud  especially in industries where the stakes are so high."_

Continues here:

Former Boeing 737 MAX Chief Technical Pilot Indicted for Fraud | USAO-NDTX | Department of Justice

No mention of being advised, to act in this manner, by the Boing Boing board members, yet.

----------


## harrybarracuda

He should be on at least manslaughter charges as well.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Heathrow will be allowed to raise passenger charges by up to 56% under plans announced by the aviation regulator.

The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) is consulting on increasing the cap on the west London airports price per passenger from £22 last year to between £24.50 and £34.40.

It is proposing that the exact figure will depend on factors such as passenger demand and commercial revenue, with prices higher if Heathrow continues to struggle in those areas.

The range is planned to come in effect from summer 2022, with an interim cap of £30 being introduced at the beginning of the year.

The charges are ultimately paid by passengers as airlines add the cost to the price of tickets.

Heathrow had called for the cap to range from £32-£43 for the five-year period being consulted on.

The airport said in July that its losses from the Covid-19 pandemic had hit £2.9 billion.

Passenger numbers in September were just 38% of pre-pandemic levels.

CAA chief executive Richard Moriarty said: While international air travel is still recovering, setting a price control for Heathrow Airport against the backdrop of so much uncertainty means we have had to adapt our approach.

Our principal objective is to further the interests of consumers while recognising the challenges the industry has faced throughout the Covid-19 pandemic.

These initial proposals seek to protect consumers against unfair charges, and will allow Heathrow to continue to appropriately invest in keeping the airport resilient, efficient and one that provides a good experience for passengers.

Earlier this year, the CAA announced that Heathrow would be allowed to raise an additional £300 million from increased charges due to the pandemic.

The regulator said on Tuesday that it is not planning to adjust this amount.

Heathrow had asked last year for the total to be set at £2.6 billion.

Consultations on the interim price cap and the wider proposals will run until November 17 and December 17 respectively.

Plan to allow Heathrow to raise passenger charges - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

----------


## aging one

Makes the proposed "tourist fee" of 300 baht seem like a good deal.   :Smile:  So much for the indignation of many posters saying "Only in Thailand"

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Makes the proposed "tourist fee" of 300 baht seem like a good deal.   So much for the indignation of many posters saying "Only in Thailand"


It's Bt500 and the difference is in the UK we know what it's for and where it goes. It's regulated.

Don't try and compare that with a big bucket of money slopping around in a Thai trough.

----------


## harrybarracuda

So Air Passenger Duty in the UK is scaled according to distance and class.

The charge for Economy Long Haul is going up to 91 pounds about Bt4,200.

Budget 2021: Long haul holidays to get more expensive but Air Passenger Duty is slashed on domestic flights

----------


## harrybarracuda

*Thai Airways to sell 42 jets, cut workforce to reduce costs*


Thai Airways International Plc will sell 42 planes and cut nearly a third of its workforce as part of a plan to slim down the fleet and cut costs, the head of its restructuring committee said on Monday.

The airline, which was in difficulty well before the pandemic struck, is going through a bankruptcy-protected restructuring.

Piyasvasti Amranand, who is leading the effort, said that the planes being sold are old and not energy efficient. He said 16 jets on lease will be returned.

After the sale, the airline will have 58 planes across four types.

Thai Airways has been losing money nearly every year since 2012.

Mr Piyasvasti said the airline planned to add more flights especially from Europe over the next few months as travel recovers.

On Monday, the Thai government reopened the country for quarantine-free travel for vaccinated tourists.

Mr Piyasvasti said that Thai Airways will reduce the number of workers from 21,300 to 14,500 by December 2022.

To help with cash flow, the airline will conclude a 25 billion baht credit agreement with financial institutions by next year and is in talks with the government for an additional 25 billion baht, he said.

The airline booked a profit of 11.1 billion baht in the six months ending in June from a loss of 28 billion baht during the corresponding period a year earlier after reducing expenses.

Thai Airways to sell 42 jets, cut workforce to reduce costs

----------


## david44

> The airline booked a profit of 11.1 billion baht in the six months ending in June


I'm not shooting the messenger but a big profit during the pandemic, how do they pull that rabbit out of the hat ?, the accountants really know how to restructure,

HOPE WELLS eternal in the land of smoke and mirrors, LOS Land Smirks

Ministry eyes Hopewell payment delay

----------


## harrybarracuda

BA and Virgin did a simultaneous take off from London to celebrate the reopening of the US.

----------


## panama hat

> I'm not shooting the messenger but a big profit during the pandemic, how do they pull that rabbit out of the hat ?, the accountants really know how to restructure,


Probably by including the potential sales price of the planes . . . wouldn't surprise

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Probably by including the potential sales price of the planes . . . wouldn't surprise


Sold fixed assets.

----------


## misskit

*Zipair is the first budget airline to fly from Asia to the US*

As tourists finally begin to take to the skies again, a low-cost airline in Japan is set to become the first budget carrier to fly from Asia to North America. Zipair Tokyo Inc announced today that it is launching flight service between Tokyo’s Narita Airport and Los Angeles International Airport in California, the first budget airline to do so.


Zipair is a subsidiary of Japan Airlines that started flying in the middle of the Covid-19 pandemic last year, apparently faring better than 2 budget airlines that had aimed to launch in Thailand until the pandemic hit. Now Zipair is stretching its wings and launching a Christmas gift for budget travellers. The new flight service will commence on December 25 flying from Japan to the US.

The low-cost carrier will begin its long-haul expansion by running the Tokyo – Los Angeles route 3 times a week and then intends to evaluate the demand for adding more flights to that route or expanding to fly to other cities on the American West Coast like San Francisco or Seattle for example. The trans-Pacific flight has been in Zipair’s sights since they began operation according to the company’s president.


“Ever since the introduction of Zipair, one of our key goals was to establish a flight across the Pacific. Our mission is to define a new standard in the air travel industry by offering a unique low-cost business model on long-haul international routes.”


The flights will utilise Boeing 787-8 aircraft for the Tokyo to Los Angeles route and other international routes. And the flights are keeping their budget promise with one-way ticket prices starting as low as 7,900 baht, which is about 27,500 yen or US $240.


Zipair is the first budget airline to fly from Asia to the US | Thaiger

----------


## harrybarracuda

Thai AirAsia (TAA) has announced mass layoffs and extended furloughs after struggling with the impact of the pandemic, despite the country's reopening on Nov 1.
Tassapon Bijleveld, executive chairman of Asia Aviation (AAV), the largest shareholder of TAA, made the announcement to TAA's employees on Wednesday, indicating that the real situation in terms of the aviation outlook remains unstable, prompting the company to reduce its fleet size next year and consequently reduce its workforce to maintain financial stability over the long run.
"Even though we've negotiated with suppliers and banks to help offload aircraft leasing costs, and we may get additional liquidity after restructuring this month, our balance sheet cannot be strong enough if those expenses still run. We have to permanently cut the fleet for at least two years or until international and domestic flights fully recover," Mr Tassapon said at the internal meeting.
TAA announced on Monday that its fleet size would be cut from 60 to 54 as revenue from international routes is still limited due to different reopening policies from country to country.
Mr Tassapon added that the airline had already bottomed out in the third quarter, and it estimated that the domestic market should fully recover by mid-2022, while international flights might gradually return to 20-30% of 2019 levels. The best-case scenario for international routes is that TAA resumes 50% of pre-pandemic scheduled flights by the end of next year.
"It's hurtful to take such a decision, but it's based on reality which we cannot answer as to when the situation will improve. We have to wait until revenue from international routes comes back and that will depend on the entry regulations of Thailand and overseas destinations," said Mr Tassapon.
According to the announcement, TAA is deciding on the number of layoffs this week and will announce the list of employees to be laid off by next week. The company is also launching an early retirement programme for those who are willing to leave.
TAA and six other airlines in the country submitted a proposal to the government in April 2020, asking for soft loans to help sustain jobs for over 20,000 employees following the impact of the first nationwide lockdown in the second quarter of that year.
They had to wait until the third quarter of this year to get a response from the Export-Import Bank of Thailand (Exim Bank), which has the duty to look after those airlines. However, the financial support each airline receives is different, while a few airlines, including TAA, still haven't received assistance.
Mr Tassapon said that due to the volatile situation, TAA has to maintain furloughs and pay cuts but will assess the situation every two months and gradually remove the cuts when the financial situation improves.
In its third-quarter financial results, TAA reported total revenue of 457 million baht and a net loss of 2.09 billion baht. The restructuring plan set to be proposed to shareholders at a meeting on Nov 26 is expected to generate additional funds of 14 billion baht from new investors.

Thai AirAsia lays off staff amid aviation woes

----------


## harrybarracuda

Heathrow has been given permission to increase charges by more than 50 per cent from January 1.

The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) said the cap on the airports price per passenger next year will be £30.19.

The current cap is £19.60.

Charges are paid by airlines but are generally passed on to passengers in air fares.

Heathrow given green light to raise passenger charges by more than 50% | Evening Standard

----------


## malmomike77

Qantas to switch domestic fleet to Airbus in blow to Boeing

Australian airline Qantas has announced that it will switch its domestic fleet of planes to Airbus from Boeing.


The deal is a major win for the European plane maker and a blow to its US-based arch-rival.


The company also said that it expects to make a loss of more than A$1.1bn (£590m; $788m) in the first half of its financial year.


Like the rest of the global aviation industry, Qantas has been hit hard by months of coronavirus lockdowns.


"This has been one of the worst halves of the entire pandemic, where most states had their borders closed and the majority of Australians were in lockdown. Domestically, our capacity fell to around 30 per cent of pre-Covid levels for several months," Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce said in a statement.


"We have significantly reduced our cost base which improves our ability to recover," he added.


The company also said it had boosted its coffers by selling land near Sydney Airport for $574m.


The airline said demand for domestic flights slowed in late November as the Omicron variant of Covid-19 emerged, although the situation was now starting to improve.


It also expects competition in the domestic travel market to intensify in the second half of the financial year as Australia's state borders open.


Looking to the future, the company announced that it had agreed to buy 40 Airbus jets, with the option to purchase another 94 aircraft.


"This is a long-term renewal plan with deliveries and payments spread over the next decade and beyond, but the similarly long lead time for aircraft orders means we need to make these decisions now," Mr Joyce said.


The deal is subject to approval by the company's board, which is expected by June next year after negotiations with pilots.


Deliveries of the new planes are due to start in mid-2023 and continue over the 10 years to replace the airline's ageing fleet of Boeing jets.


Qantas also said that the new planes would lower its carbon emissions.


The announcement by Qantas caps a good week for Airbus after Singapore Airlines on Wednesday signed a provisional deal to buy seven A350 freighters.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59677826

----------


## harrybarracuda

Just as well because Qatar are probably going to switch from Airbus to Boeing after a fall out over A350 paint.

Airbus & Qatar Airways A350 Dispute Escalates - One Mile at a Time

----------


## misskit

*Delta: Flight to Shanghai turned back because of COVID rules*

BEIJING (AP) — Delta Air Lines said Monday that new pandemic-related cleaning requirements at a Shanghai airport were behind the turning back of a recent flight from Seattle in midair, a move that had prompted a protest from the Chinese Consulate in San Francisco.


An emailed statement said the new mandates at Shanghai Pudong International Airport “require significantly extended ground time and are not operationally viable for Delta.”


It wasn't clear what the rules are and what prompted the change, but it comes as China tightens its already strict COVID-19 travel restrictions in the face of a growing outbreak in the city of Xi'an and ahead of the Winter Olympics in Beijing in six weeks.

Xi'an, which is about 1,000 kilometers (600 miles) southwest of Beijing, reported more than 300 new cases over the weekend, a sharp rise from previous days. The city of 13 million people has been locked down, with only one person per household allowed out every two days to shop for necessities.


The Delta flight that turned back to Seattle last week left passengers with expired COVID-19 test results and U.S. visas, according to Chinese media reports.


Two Taiwan-based airlines, China Airlines and EVA Air, have both cut down on the number of flights heading to Shanghai Pudong International Airport in recent days, citing new disinfection procedures that will take longer to complete, according to Taiwan's semi-official Central News Agency.


EVA is suspending flights from two cities to Shanghai until Feb. 3. China Airlines is suspending flights from one city to Shanghai until the end of January, and reducing the number of flights on another route.


The consulate in San Francisco did not name Delta but said in a short statement Sunday that many flights from the U.S. to China had been delayed or canceled in recent days including a flight that turned back more than halfway to its destination.


The consulate “had made a stern representation to the airline,” the statement said.

Delta: Flight to Shanghai turned back because of COVID rules | Taiwan News | 2021-12-27 18:40:17

----------


## S Landreth

College student only passenger on international flight

A college student reportedly found himself alone on a flight from England to Central Florida when returning to U.S. from winter break. 

Kai Forsyth, a 19-year-old freshman, told News 6 he didnt really know what was going on, when he discovered he was the lone passenger on the nine-hour flight. Forsyth said he was offered free food and drinks, but he was unable to sit in first class. 

Im guessing COVID-19 and precautions to fly and people are scared  especially back in the U.K. he said, when asked why the flight was empty, telling the network it was the only question flight attendants failed to answer. 

Yet Forsyth said the in-flight service was exceptional and that he spent some of his time alone visiting the kitchen staff. 

I actually went in the kitchen for a bit, and I was asking them like what are all these things in the storage units, he told the outlet. I had all the seats in the world to pick from to have my own nap which I did.

Id just like to say a massive thanks to British Airways for providing me with this flight, he said. That one flight attendant you know who you are, you sought me out. So, I had the best meals, all the desserts I needed.

----------


## david44

> Just as well because Qatar are probably going to switch from Airbus to Boeing after a fall out over A350 paint.
> 
> Airbus & Qatar Airways A350 Dispute Escalates - One Mile at a Time


Indeed be talked about a while down at the BAKERy

Thanks for the pointer. Everyone should go google the title, read the article, and take a look at the photos. As a pilot myself, I found the images absolutely shocking. The photos do not show "cosmetic flaws" or "paint issues" -- they show a string of obvious structural disasters waiting to happen. There's a lot of discussion about the exposed mesh, which is protection against the impact of lightning strikes. Lightning, schmitening... Lightning strikes would be way down my list of concerns on this -- I'm more worried about the fuselage coming apart. I'd like to find out more about exactly where (on the airframe) these issues are occurring. If these issues are common on A350s, in critical parts of the airframe that are exposed to the airstream (and honestly, what isn't?) then the whole fleet should be grounded. Calling this merely "cosmetic" seems like Boeing calling it's 737MAX troubles "a minor software glitch". Maybe it's "just cosmetic" when the plane is sitting on the ground and not moving. But when subject to high speeds, I'd seriously worry about the skin starting to come apart. Go take a look at the photos and picture that skin moving through the air at over 500 mph. The force of the airflow at high speeds is incredibly strong, and personally, I'm going to have to think long and hard before I get on another A350 (it's a shame, the plane does provide a great passenger experience that I've enjoyed). BTW, it's not just Qatar (it's CEO is a clown, but in this case, I'd take this seriously). Finnair, Cathay Pacific, Ethiad, Lufthansa and Air France also reported issues. This seems like it should be a hair-on-fire situation for Airbus. I don't spook easily. This scares me. Yikes.

You should see his painters



> We had to finish the booze before leaving the country so a party space was created at old Doha airport. Steve H (RIP)was last seen walking down the runway with a brush said going back to Cambridge R.I.P he really was a crazy fecka made seem normal

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Forsyth said he was offered free food and drinks, but he was unable to sit in first class.


BA Cabin Crew really are just a miserable bunch of c u n t s.

----------


## bsnub

Airbus has cancelled a $6bn contract with Qatar Airways for 50 of its  new A321neo passenger jets, escalating a legal battle between the two  companies over paint on the recently delivered A350s.

 Qatar Airways called Airbus’s decision announced on Friday “a matter of considerable regret and frustration”.

 In December, Airbus was taken to court by Qatar Airways in London,  following a series of alleged problems with the Airbus A350 aircraft.

 The airline complained  the paint on the recently delivered Airbus  A350s was cracking and peeling, exposing copper meshing used to insulate  the aircraft against lightning strike.

 It is seeking more than $600m in compensation after grounding the affected aircraft – 21 of its 53 A350 jets – claiming the paint issue is a safety risk.

 The deal was reportedly worth $6.35bn when it was finalised in December 2017.

 Qatar Airways published a video on social media on Friday of the scarred exterior of grounded A350 jets that the airline said underscored “serious and legitimate safety concerns”.

The European Union Aviation Safety Agency independently assessed the issue and found no safety concerns.

 “There is no reasonable or rational basis” for Qatari regulators to  have grounded the A350s operated by Qatar Airways, Airbus said in  documents prepared for a London court hearing on Thursday.

 It accused Qatar Airways of instigating the grounding as it was in  its own financial interest to keep the aircraft on the ground in light  of the coronavirus pandemic collapse in demand for air travel.

 Qatar Airways rejected the claims in a statement on Friday.

 “These defects are not superficial and one of the defects causes the  aircraft’s lightning protection system to be exposed and damaged,” it  said. “We continue to urge Airbus to undertake a satisfactory root cause  analysis into the cause of the defects.”

An investigation  by Reuters news agency showed at least five other airlines reported  A350 paint or skin flaws since 2016, well before Qatar raised concerns  in November 2020 when an attempt to repaint a jet in World Cup livery  exposed some 980 defects.

 Airbus has said it is looking at changing the design of  anti-lightning mesh for future A350s, but insisted there is adequate  backup lightning protection. It says Qatar is undermining global  protocols by seeking leverage over safety.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/...s-amid-dispute

----------


## harrybarracuda

Well that's a bold and if I might say fucking stupid move.

Added: I'm assuming the dickheads at Airbus don't realise that raggies are world champion grudge bearers.

----------


## Troy

^ A calculated business move since Airbus have a backlog of orders and Qatar have been playing them around for too long.

There is no doubt that there is a problem with the A350 finish but it isn't justification for grounding them. From what I have read, it is due to the fact that carbon fibre doesn't expand/contract due to heat but the copper embedded within it does. They are looking at changing the design of the copper mesh to reduce the amount of expansion/contraction in order to stop the paintwork from peeling. In any event, it appears to be only cosmetic and not a flight safety risk.

The contact cancellation will be expensive for Qatar in terms of training and maintenance support, should the have to equip with Boeing, so I imagine they will fight to keep the order, may even have to drop their compensation claim against the A350.

In other words not a stupid move by Airbus at all...

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^ A calculated business move since Airbus have a backlog of orders and Qatar have been playing them around for too long.
> 
> There is no doubt that there is a problem with the A350 finish but it isn't justification for grounding them. From what I have read, it is due to the fact that carbon fibre doesn't expand/contract due to heat but the copper embedded within it does. They are looking at changing the design of the copper mesh to reduce the amount of expansion/contraction in order to stop the paintwork from peeling. In any event, it appears to be only cosmetic and not a flight safety risk.
> 
> The contact cancellation will be expensive for Qatar in terms of training and maintenance support, should the have to equip with Boeing, so I imagine they will fight to keep the order, may even have to drop their compensation claim against the A350.
> 
> In other words not a stupid move by Airbus at all...


Raggies don't work like that.

Don't be surprised if they announce a complete long term move to Boeing.

There are plenty of airlines with no money that would be more than happy to drop down the Boeing order queue.

Look at the fucking state of this.

----------


## david44

Flaky 
From Corn Flakes to Porn Flakes Qatar Airport was certainly home to some "Artistes" in my day. 
After an exhausting 2- hours educating Abdel it was a quick hop and a can of G+T to the Flash? Flash pots / pubs of Bahrain and back same night or crack of dawn for work .Ex Caledonian hostesses who would put lead in even the most HB pencil and bung us all a gandful of miniatures to gulp before landing.

As to the substantative point seems like a gaggle gone awry if there were serious safety issues I think the pilots and insurers would have a been pro captive more Much ADOHAHAHAHA about nowt. To be fair the Majlis jockeys they did allow me an import/export sideline no questions asked just the odd token "gifts" A $600 pot of Yemeni honey oiled the wheels back in the day probably want a hummer or a drone now.

----------


## malmomike77

The madness that is the EU

Airlines flying near-empty ghost flights to retain EU airport slots

Analysis from Greenpeace finds deserted flights are generating millions of tons of harmful emissions

At least 100,000 ghost flights could be flown across Europe this winter because of EU airport slot usage rules, according to analysis by Greenpeace.

The deserted, unnecessary or unprofitable flights are intended to allow airlines to keep their takeoff and landing runway rights in major airports, but they could also generate up to 2.1 million tons of greenhouse gas emissions  or as much as 1.4 million average petrol or diesel cars emit in a year  Greenpeace says.

The EU Commission requiring airlines to fly empty planes to meet an arbitrary quota is not only polluting, but extremely hypocritical given their climate rhetoric, said Herwig Schuster, a spokesperson for Greenpeaces European Mobility for All campaign.

Transport emissions are skyrocketing, he said. It would be irresponsible of the EU to not take the low-hanging fruit of ending ghost flights and banning short-haul flights where theres a reasonable train connection.

When the Covid pandemic began, the European Commission cut the benchmark for flight operations that airlines must meet to keep their slots open from 80% to 25%.

But last December, Brussels upped the benchmark to 50%, rising again to 64% in March.

Lufthansa CEO, Carsten Spohr, said that his airline may have to fly 18,000 extra, unnecessary flights to fulfil the adjusted rules, and called for the sort of climate-friendly exemptions used in other parts of the world.

A Lufthansa spokesperson said that between January and March 2021, just 45% of its flights were full.

The other 5%, or 18,000 flights, we define as unnecessary, the spokesperson added. If we wouldnt risk the loss of slots in certain airports in Europe, we probably would have cancelled them and put them together with other existing flights.

more :   https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jan/26/airlines-flying-near-empty-ghost-flights-to-retain-eu-airport-slots

----------


## harrybarracuda

That is very silly indeed. Stupid EU.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Oops, someone knocked a door off a BA 777 in Cape Town.

----------


## Bonecollector

I'm no professional but that doesn't look very safe to me. (A350 Qatar Airways)

----------


## Bonecollector

> Oops, someone knocked a door off a BA 777 in Cape Town.


Naaaaa, that's just BA cost cutting.

----------


## david44

JackMeoff special

Storm Corrie: Plane struggles to land in strong winds - BBC News

----------


## harrybarracuda

Things to do with an old 747

Retired British Airways jet transformed into $1,300 per hour '&#39;'party plane'&#39;' | CNN Travel

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^ A calculated business move since Airbus have a backlog of orders and Qatar have been playing them around for too long.
> 
> There is no doubt that there is a problem with the A350 finish but it isn't justification for grounding them. From what I have read, it is due to the fact that carbon fibre doesn't expand/contract due to heat but the copper embedded within it does. They are looking at changing the design of the copper mesh to reduce the amount of expansion/contraction in order to stop the paintwork from peeling. In any event, it appears to be only cosmetic and not a flight safety risk.
> 
> The contact cancellation will be expensive for Qatar in terms of training and maintenance support, should the have to equip with Boeing, so I imagine they will fight to keep the order, may even have to drop their compensation claim against the A350.
> 
> In other words not a stupid move by Airbus at all...


This is Qatar saying "Fuck you Airbus".

https://www.traveldailymedia.com/qat...er-and-737max/

----------


## misskit

This seems a bit desperate. A great way to ruin the cabin interiors.



*THAI Airways Now Offers Cargo-in-Cabin Service*

BANGKOK (NNT) - Thailand’s national carrier is now offering a Cargo-in-Cabin service to meet the demand for cargo that requires special handling.


Lieutenant Junior Grade Supoj Charoensuk, Chief Operations of Thai Airways International, stated that the carrier, in collaboration with the commercial and postal sectors, on February 1st shipped roughly 3 metric tons of Antigen Test Kits (ATKs) to Sydney, Australia. The cargo, which requires special handling, was kept in the cabin of Boeing 777-300ER aircraft TG-300ER.


He went on to say that the service is focused on ensuring the cargo’s safety as well as the transportation’s efficiency. The service also allows the airplane to carry more cargo by utilizing the cabin as extra storage. It is suitable for transporting sensitive commodities such as pharmaceuticals, medical equipment, food, and electronic parts.


According to Supoj, the service is likely to help the carrier make much more revenue. He noted that a number of clients, including the Thai Fresh Fruit Traders and Exporters Association, have already shown interest in the service.


Thai Airways executed its first Cargo-in-Cabin flight last month, as well as shipping a batch of 2.6 tons of ATKs from Bangkok to Guangzhou, China.


The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) has granted Thai Airways a license to provide the service till the end of next month. At the end of the current term, the carrier will request a renewal.

THAI Airways Now Offers Cargo-in-Cabin Service

----------


## Norton

> This seems a bit desperate


Of course it is. I had the displeasure of working with Thai. The absolutely worst managed airline I ever came across.

----------


## helge

> . I had the displeasure of working with Thai. The absolutely worst managed airline I ever came across.


Thanks

Having flown with them ......a lot, I'd have preferred this inside information somewhat earlier

 :noob:

----------


## Norton

> Thanks
> 
> Having flown with them ......a lot, I'd have preferred this inside information somewhat earlier


Sorry my friend but this was first opportunity I had to express my opinion on the matter.

Sold them flight simulators at their training center off Ransit road in Chatuchak.

----------


## Troy

> This is Qatar saying "Fuck you Airbus".


More like Qatar crying to Boeing having been told to FO by Airbus.

An airline in the red taking orders for the 737 Max is a very brave move.

----------


## malmomike77

^ i won't be flying with them, Boeing as a manufacturer cannot be trusted.

----------


## aging one

> ^ i won't be flying with them, Boeing as a manufacturer cannot be trusted.


What airline did you fly here last time you came? The 777 was and is a game changer in long haul flights. ANA, Asiana, KAL, JAL, EVA, CX and SQ all use them for their long haul flights to America from Asia.

----------


## cyrille

I guess Mike will be dealing with Orville and Wilbur.

----------


## malmomike77

Boeing actively lied AO, covered up and plain out lied and not just once. This is an industry where safety is paramount and they cut corners and lied about it with the result that people died, so if its alright with you i will keep my opinion of the company and the scum that run it.

----------


## aging one

> Boeing actively lied AO, covered up and plain out lied and not just once. This is an industry where safety is paramount and they cut corners and lied about it with the result that people died, so if its alright with you i will keep my opinion of the company and the scum that run it.


Jai Yen Yen Mikey, I was just interested in what Airbus aircraft you flew here.  737 are not long haul so I dont think you need to worry. :Smile:

----------


## malmomike77

I am cool, just my opinion. Not sure what that chihuahua Symp is on about - he seems to taking a mental nosedive much like the max after take off :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

I wonder when Airbus shareholders will start suggesting their CEO resigns? This is lunacy. Do they not think Qatar can't just go and pick up a couple more 777's in a heartbeat?






> PARIS, Feb 8 (Reuters) - A $600 million contractual and safety dispute between Airbus (AIR.PA) and Qatar Airways deepened on Tuesday when the European planemaker revoked orders for two A350-1000 jets, days after ripping up an order from the Gulf carrier for 50 A321neos.
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/airbus-revokes-order-two-a350-1000-jets-qatar-dispute-2022-02-08/#:~:text=PARIS%2C%20Feb%208%20(Reuters),Gulf%20car  rier%20for%2050%20A321neos.

----------


## Troy

^ I thought the two A350's were built and waiting for delivery but Qatar refuse to take them due to their ongoing dispute about the A350 paintwork. Airbus have now claimed default on the deliveries, which is technically a cancellation of the order.

I think Airbus has decided that Boeing are welcome to Qatar having spent 20 odd years faffing around with them.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> More like Qatar crying to Boeing having been told to FO by Airbus.
> 
> An airline in the red taking orders for the 737 Max is a very brave move.


They are probably the richest airline in the world, money is no object.

Boeing will be biting their arms off.

Who do you think will be crying when they order 50 777's instead of A350's?

----------


## misskit

*Thai Airways' restructuring lifts it to first profit in 5 years*

BANGKOK -- Thai Airways International reported a full-year net profit in 2021, its first in five years, as one-off contributions from asset sales and cuts in employee benefits helped its bottom line.


But the Thai flag carrier's operating performance has yet to show signs of a sustained recovery despite the government scrapping quarantine requirements for vaccinated international travelers


Thai Airways posted a consolidated net profit of 55.1 billion baht ($1.7 billion) for 2021 on Wednesday, reversing its worst-ever net loss of 141 billion baht in 2020. The rebound reflected its restructuring efforts under a court-supervised rehabilitation.


"We returned to profit, but it was only because of one-time gains," Piyasvasti Amranand, a Thai Airways board member in charge of the company's rehabilitation, said at a news conference on Monday.


The COVID-19 pandemic and subsequent travel restrictions around the world undermined the airline's already shaky financial position, forcing it to file for rehabilitation with the Central Bankruptcy Court in May 2020. Its rebuilding plan was formally approved last June.

MORE Thai Airways' restructuring lifts it to first profit in 5 years -
                        Nikkei Asia

----------


## david44

> "We returned to profit, but it was only because of one-time gains,"



I doubt if really profitable airlines like Ryanair actually made large returns to shareholders during pandemic

These Khvnts steal monies from non refunded tickets , Their murderous oligarch  pals  in this brutal  regime who get free flights for themselves and their prostitutes/pressitutes its' this sort of arse gravy is why I   have not flown with them for years nor should anyone please. Last time when then was no free employee nor ID 50 Qatar flight the day I was needed I was given a Thai flight to Sydney , never again  I'd sooner walk.

The so called profit is an accountancy ruse.I cannot believe they actually moved any passenger plane a profit?

You must remember the Wings of shame. LOS more lies than Oh Hoo the fvlks who put the LOS in SOcaL




Rent a nong's airline's loss of face cover up jobby even DJ Pat could've doe a better runna

----------


## harrybarracuda

You've gotta laugh.




> Nok Air cancelled its new Bangkok-Betong flights on Wednesday and Friday due to lack of passengers, promised refunds for the few tickets sold and suspended the service.
> The budget airline said there had been too little marketing time and consequently the number of passengers booked on the route was smaller than expected, while the operating cost was quite high.
> "The cancellation of both flights this week is aimed at reducing risk," the announcement said. It promised refunds and compensation to customers. The minimum fare was 3,500 baht.
> Nok Air said it would organise a press trip to Betong on Friday to promote the service. There were no flights planned on the route until further notice.
> It also said it had invited representatives of local tourism and ticketing agents in Betong to a meeting on Monday to seek their support for the new service it had earlier requested.
> The airline apologised for the confusion it had caused.
> 
> Betong flights cancelled for lack of interest

----------


## Troy

> ^ i won't be flying with them, Boeing as a manufacturer cannot be trusted.


I think that's a bit harsh. The 777 is a real workhouse and the 737 classics are still great aircraft. A pity the 747-400 has been retired as I still prefer to anything else on long trips.

Airbus and Boeing both have good and bad points. The 737 max debacle does not mean the other aircraft are bad. 

Boeing have been screwed by MD management...should have got rid of them all years ago.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Saudi budget airline flynas is in negotiations with both Boeing and its current supplier Airbus to buy aircraft worth $13 billion to $15 billion, Chief Executive Bander al-Mohanna told Al Arabiya in an interview published on Monday.
The carrier has increased the number of planned new orders to 250 aircraft and also plans to increase the number of destinations to 165 from 70, al-Mohanna was reported saying.
The acceleration in the airline’s growth plans, which coincides with ambitions by Saudi Arabia to develop its airline industry and become a hub for tourism, was first reported by Bloomberg.

Saudi Budget Airline Flynas in Talks to Buy $15 Billion Worth of Aircraft

----------


## malmomike77

> The acceleration in the airline’s growth plans, which coincides with ambitions by Saudi Arabia to develop its airline industry and become a hub for tourism,


Its taken then a long time to twig they have an advantage with their oil resources, the other Emirates will be worried about their investment in tacky bling destinations. I wonder if they'll ease up in the alcohol policy.

----------


## prawnograph

Flying in New Zealand?



*Air traffic controller sacked for having sex at work wins licence back*
March 29 2022

*An air traffic controller who lost his job after an investigation found he had been handcuffed to his chair and involved in sexual activity while giving instructions to pilots has won his licence back.*

The man appealed the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) director’s decision to revoke his air traffic control licence.

Now a judge has ruled in his favour, saying that while the man did have sex on duty in the control tower, he hadn’t been handcuffed at the time, so hadn’t been physically prevented from doing his duties.

The man began an extra-marital affair in 2017 with a woman he met on a dating website. The woman lived in another part of the country and the pair would meet for sexual encounters in hotels and motels in different places. The relationship came to a bitter end after about five months and led to the woman contacting the man’s wife, and informing her that the pair had had sex in the control tower while the man was handcuffed to a chair.

The woman told the investigator that the pair had had sex in the control tower on two occasions. On one occasion he had been handcuffed in a chair and she had to operate his handset, so he could communicate with a pilot. The man said the sexual activity described by the woman had occurred, but in a hotel room, not the control tower. He also said the woman had told him to give her $50,000, or she would ruin his life.

The CAA director found that “on the balance of probabilities” he was inclined to believe the woman. He said he planned to revoke the man's licence and invited him to make submissions before a final decision was made. The director said he was concerned at the man's propensity to demonstrate risky behaviour, particularly having sex and allowing himself to be physically restrained while on duty when his attention to performing his air traffic control duties was vital.

The judge noted that the man had consistently denied any sexual activity in the tower, but he believed it “inherently plausible” and was satisfied that they had had sexual activity in the tower.

“I consider it far less plausible that [the man] would allow himself to be handcuffed in his chair in the control room during sexual activity so that she had to place the radio handset to his mouth and turn its transmitting control on and off for him to speak to a pilot.”

He agreed with the CAA director that by having sex in the tower the man had been irresponsible and had “elevated the risk of others operating in the aviation system by his behaviour”.

But the man had not been physically prevented from performing his duties as claimed, and that while the behaviour was risky, it was “not quite as risky as that which the director relied upon” when making the decision to revoke the licence.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Its taken then a long time to twig they have an advantage with their oil resources, the other Emirates will be worried about their investment in tacky bling destinations. I wonder if they'll ease up in the alcohol policy.


I think it's more for intra-Saudi and regional flights than "tacky bling destinations".

Emirates are not their competition, FlyDubai and the likes are.

As for alcohol, they have been murmuring about it for a long time, especially if Neom gets finished.

----------


## misskit

*Thai Airways Adds Boeing 777-300ERs to Meet Increasing Demand*

BANGKOK (NNT) - To meet the increasing demand for flights after the easing of travel restrictions, Thai Airways International (THAI) will add three Boeing 777-300ERs to its fleet by the end of this month.


Thai Airways has announced the lease of three Boeing 777-300ERs for its Bangkok-London route, in order to increase capacity and meet rising demand following the lifting of travel restrictions in most countries. According to the airline, two aircraft arrived in Thailand on Wednesday (6 Apr), while the remaining one will be delivered by the end of this month.


The three aircraft will join Thai Airways’ current fleet of 58 planes to provide flight services while the company undergoes financial rehabilitation. According to the airliner, the aircraft lease payment will be power-by-the-hour agreements for the time being. Later phases will see negotiations to adjust payment to reflect the company’s current situation.


The new 777-300ERs are expected to enter service by the end of this month.

Thai Airways Adds Boeing 777-300ERs to Meet Increasing Demand

----------


## Bonecollector

Well this isn't good!

*'It felt as if we were going to die': MAS flight from KL to Sabah turns back after losing altitude sharply*
 


KUALA  LUMPUR: A Malaysia Airlines (MAS) flight from Kuala Lumpur to Tawau in  Sabah dove several thousand feet in mid-air, with passengers panicking  as the plane lost altitude sharply.


  Flight passenger Halimah Nasoha wrote in a Facebook post on Monday (Apr 4) that she boarded flight MH2664 on Sunday at 2.30pm. 


  She claimed that at about  3.03pm, according to the website FlightRadar24, the plane suddenly  plunged from 31,000 ft to 24,000 ft within seconds.
  I was tossed around a few  times because I wasnt wearing my seatbelt (At the time, we were allowed  to unbuckle our seat belts), she wrote.
  The passengers were shouting and crying. It felt as if we were going to die.

Checks on the FlightRadar24 website showed that at 7.07am (UTC), the  altitude of the plane was 25,000 ft. In under a minute, the altitude  dropped to 23,375 ft before climbing back to 25,450 ft just before  7.09am.


  The passenger added that subsequently, the plane made a U-turn  and flew around the Melaka area before heading to the Kuala Lumpur  International Airport (KLIA).


  She said that she took another flight on Sunday evening and safely reached Tawau at 9.50pm.
  She added: Not everyone  who has gone through this type of experience gets to live to share their  story, and for that I am grateful ... Thank you to the pilots who  managed to take control of the plane and save us.


Responding  to CNAs queries, MAS said on Wednesday that the plane performed an  air turn back due to technical issues with the aircraft, compounded by  bad weather en route.


  As a precautionary  measure, the pilot made the decision to return to Kuala Lumpur in the  interest of passenger safety. The aircraft landed safely in Kuala Lumpur  at 5.03pm.


  The Civil Aviation  Authority of Malaysia (CAAM) wrote in a statement on Tuesday that it had  been in close contact with MAS to ensure that all the technical safety  matters were addressed in accordance with safety procedures and  regulations. These included pilot responses and airworthiness processes  for the aircraft type, it added.


  CAAM CEO Chester Voo said  they would be reviewing Malaysia Airlines Berhads internal Flight Data  Monitoring System, which monitors and records all flight data profiles  of the operating aircraft.


  Preliminary data has shown correct responses by the operating crew following the issue onboard. 
  CAAM will continue to  monitor the situation and will not compromise on any issue that could  potentially jeopardise the safety and security of airlines operations  and the public, he said.


*Source*

'It felt as if we were going to die': MAS flight from KL to Sabah turns back after losing altitude sharply - CNA

----------


## helge

> The incident happened last Sunday, but has only now come to light after passengers posted their stories on social media, prompting the airline to release a statement.


Another Boeing 737-800 experiences sudden dive, lands safely in KL, Malaysia | Thaiger

----------


## Bonecollector

^ same plane same story

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^ same plane same story


The plane had a couple of relatively small, uncommanded altitude changes and turned back to base.

That is not the same as a high speed, near vertical dive into terrain.

This is why the passenger's account of it is prefixed "She claimed".

----------


## OhOh

> CAAM CEO Chester Voo said *they would be reviewing* Malaysia Airlines Berhad’s internal Flight Data Monitoring System, which monitors and records all flight data profiles of the operating aircra





> The plane had a couple of relatively small, uncommanded altitude changes and turned back to base.
> 
> That is not the same as a high speed, near vertical dive into terrain.
> 
> This is why the passenger's account of it is prefixed "She claimed".


You're on the investigation team?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> You're on the investigation team?


No but I can read hoohoo, which is something on which you should try and work you gormless fuck.




> She claimed that at about 3.03pm, according to the website FlightRadar24, the plane suddenly plunged from 31,000 ft to 24,000 ft within seconds.





> Checks on the FlightRadar24 website showed that at 7.07am (UTC), the altitude of the plane was 25,000 ft. In under a minute, the altitude dropped to 23,375 ft before climbing back to 25,450 ft just before 7.09am.

----------


## misskit

*Qantas to launch longest non-stop passenger flight


*
Qantas announced on Monday it will launch the world’s longest non-stop commercial flight, with passengers set to spend 19 hours in the air traveling from Sydney to London by the end of 2025.


After five years of planning, the airline said it was ordering 12 Airbus A350-1000 aircraft to operate the “Project Sunrise” flights to cities including London and New York.


Non-stop flights will start from Sydney by the end of 2025, it said, with long-haul trips later planned to include Melbourne.


“New types of aircraft make new things possible,” said Qantas chairman Alan Joyce, according to a statement.


“The A350 and Project Sunrise will make any city just one flight away from Australia,” he said. “It’s the final frontier and the final fix for the tyranny of distance.”


Qantas operated research flights for the long-haul route in 2019, including a trial London-Sydney trek of 17,800 kilometres (11,030 miles), which took 19 hours and 19 minutes. A trial New York-Sydney flight in the same year covered 16,200 kilometres (10,200 miles) and took a little over 19 hours.


Singapore Airlines currently operates the world’s longest non-stop commercial flight from Singapore to New York, covering 16,700 kilometres (10,400 miles) in a little under 19 hours.


Qantas already operates a 14,498-kilometre Perth-London trip that takes 17 hours.


– ‘Maximum comfort’ –


“As you’d expect, the cabin is being specially designed for maximum comfort for long-haul flying,” Joyce said.


Qantas said the new A350 aircraft would be configured for 238 passengers with first-class suites offering a separate bed, recliner chair and wardrobe.


It promised spacier economy sections and a “wellbeing zone” designed for “movement, stretching and hydration”.
At the same time, Qantas confirmed it was also ordering 40 A321 XLR and A220 aircraft from Airbus. In addition, it bought options for another 94 of these planes until the end of 2034.


“The A320s and A220s will become the backbone of our domestic fleet for the next 20 years, helping to keep this country moving,” Joyce said.


The newer aircraft would reduce emissions by at least 15 percent if running on fossil fuels, and more if using sustainable aviation fuel, he said.


“We have come through the other side of the pandemic a structurally different company,” the airline boss said.


“Our domestic market share is higher and the demand for direct international flights is even stronger than it was before Covid.”


Qantas said the total cost of the deal was a matter of commercial confidence, though it indicated it had obtained a significant discount on the standard price of the aircraft.


The A350-1000 planes will be powered by Rolls-Royce Trent XWB-97 turbofan engines, designed to be 25 percent more fuel efficient than the previous generation of aircraft, Qantas said.


Qantas to launch longest non-stop passenger flight | Thai PBS World : The latest Thai news in English, News Headlines, World News and News Broadcasts in both Thai and English. We bring Thailand to the world

----------


## Bonecollector

^ Just read this morning on the BBC. Should be a dog of a flight if back in economy. I hope the 'It promised spacier economy sections and a “wellbeing zone” designed for “movement, stretching and hydration”.' will be as good as it sounds but knowing airlines, I doubt it.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Good for Airbus though.




> Sydney: Qantas Airways Ltd said on Monday it had ordered 12 A350-1000 planes from Airbus SE to be used on what will be the world's longest commercial flight from Sydney to London, as well as 40 narrowbody jets to renew its domestic fleet.


Unless Qantas haven't heard about the paint problems...

----------


## harrybarracuda

So both pilots were certified and licensed... why inconvenience the passengers over a simple rostering mistake?

Sounds dodgy to me.




> A Virgin Atlantic flight heading to New York's JFK Airport turned back to London Heathrow after it emerged the first officer hadn't completed the airline's final flying test.
> 
> Flight VS3 was around 40 minutes into the journey on Monday when a "rostering error" emerged, leading to the flight returning to London, an airline spokesperson said in a statement to CNN Thursday.
> 
> The first officer joined the company in 2017 and is qualified in accordance with UK flight regulations, but needed to complete the airline's internal "final assessment" flight, the statement said.
> 
> Virgin Atlantic said the flight's captain, who's "highly experienced" and has been with Virgin Atlantic for 17 years, did not have the designated trainer status, and the first officer was replaced with a new pilot.
> 
> The company said both pilots were fully licensed and qualified to operate the aircraft, and the pairing did not not breach aviation or safety regulations.
> ...

----------


## Backspin

Jesus H Christ. Boeing pushed the entry date of the 777-X to 2025. 5 years past original entry date. It isn't even a new build. It's a 777 reheat.  

Aviation Week&#39;s Check 6 Podcast - Airbus Up, Boeing Down And The Diverging Duopoly

Boeing should be broken up into 2 different companies. Bring back the Douglas name

----------


## Backspin

Imagine 20 years ago , we'd be bragging about how long flights were in 2022. It's a disgrace.

----------


## harrybarracuda

You would think a country that produces 1.5 million barrels of oil a day can spare a bit of Jet A1 for its airlines.





> Nigeria's airlines are to stop domestic operations from Monday in protest at the spiralling cost of jet fuel.It has risen almost fourfold this year, which was unsustainable, the Airline Operators of Nigeria (AON) said.
> 
> "No airline in the world can absorb this kind of sudden shock from such an astronomical rise over a short period," its statement said.
> 
> The hikes have been triggered principally by Russia's invasion of Ukraine at the end of February.
> 
> AON, which represents Nigeria's nine domestic carriers, said the airlines had been having to subsidise services over the last four months.
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-61361686

----------


## Troy

> Jesus H Christ. Boeing pushed the entry date of the 777-X to 2025. 5 years past original entry date. It isn't even a new build. It's a 777 reheat.


It's a completely different wing and has a major engine change. Have Boeing managed to explain the uncommanded pitch occurrence during testing yet? FAA aren't too happy after the 737 Max having a similar problem.





> Boeing should be broken up into 2 different companies. Bring back the Douglas name


McDonnel Douglas is everything that is wrong with the current Boeing.

----------


## Bonecollector

> McDonnel Douglas is everything that is wrong with the current Boeing.


I have heard they have a bit of an 'old boys club' mentality.

----------


## Backspin

I didn't know that. Bring back the Hughs or De Havilland names then.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> I have heard they have a bit of an 'old boys club' mentality.


You watched this too?

----------


## Switch

> I didn't know that. Bring back the Hughs or De Havilland names then.


You don’t need the opening sentence. Everyone knows that you only post dumb shit anyway.

----------


## aging one

> Boeing should be broken up into 2 different companies. Bring back the Douglas name


Skiddy goes out on a limb.....






> McDonnel Douglas is everything that is wrong with the current Boeing.


Gets called on it by a poster who knows something about aviation.






> Originally Posted by Troy 
> McDonnel Douglas is everything that is wrong with the current Boeing.
> I have heard they have a bit of an 'old boys club' mentality.


Again is challenged.






> I didn't know that. Bring back the Hughs or De Havilland names then.


Skiddy descends into absolute idiocy, as is his norm.....   Go back to your room skiddy, let the big boys play... :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

Yes, fuck off skiddy, your witless background noise adds nothing to any thread.

----------


## misskit

*Fire on Airbus A319-115 Injures 36 Passengers in China


*An Airbus A319-115 passenger bus veered off the runway during takeoff and caught fire in the Tibet region of China Thursday.  The crash sent black smoke billowing into the air and injured more than 36 passengers and aircrew.


The Airbus A319-115, with 122 people aboard, left Chongqing for Nyingchi, in the Tibetan region of China, after leaving the city of Chongqing in the southwestern part of the country.

In videos shared by state media, the aircrafts left side appeared to be on fire as people headed away from the scene.


Tibet Airlines said that the videos also showed fire trucks spraying water on the Airbus A319. Tibet Airlines reported that the accident occurred at 8:09 a.m. (0109 GMT).


All 113 passengers and nine flight crew aboard the Airbus A319-115 jet were evacuated.


Passengers injured evacuation the Airbus A319.


According to the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC), 36 people were injured during the evacuation.


During the takeoff, the flight crew discovered an abnormality with the aircraft and stopped takeoff as required by procedure.


About two hours after the accident, the airport announced that flights had resumed and an investigation was underway. The CAAC said that one runway remained closed.

According to Wikipedia, as of June 2020, there have been 20 aviation accidents and incidents involving the Airbus A319, including three hull-loss accidents.


No fatal accidents have been recorded involving the A319 aircraft.


The A319 is a short-fuselage version of Airbus single-aisle A320 jetliner that proves versatile with a range of seating options, from a 110-seat configuration to a capacity of 160, all of which offer the highest level of passenger comfort.

VIDEO Fire On Airbus A319-115 Injures 36 Passengers In China

----------


## OhOh

Well done the pilots.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Well done the pilots.


Yes, well done the pilots for not taking off in a plane that was obviously on fire.

 :Confused:

----------


## OhOh

> for not taking off in a plane that was obviously on fire





> During the takeoff, the *flight crew discovered an abnormality* with the aircraft and stopped takeoff* as required by procedure*.


Were the pilots actions:

1. The"discovery of the abnormality", via a warning from some automated system, some klaxons, bells and whistles, a call/ heavy banging on the cockpit door, from the Chief Steward who was sipping is hot coffee which spilt on his uniform .... ?

2. The "procedure to abort the takeoff".  Is it mandatory to check the "procedure manual checklist" prior to taking any emergency actions?

 Completed safely, prior to or after, the fire became "obvious", to 1st Class VIP 'arry, sat in seat 1A sipping a KoolAid?

----------


## Troy

^ are you blabbering again?

A fooking great bang coming from the engine gave them a hint there was something wrong. 
Rejected takeoff is part of the take off brief and it's memory items.

The pilots lost control either due to mechanical failure, or due to error; we'll find out in the accident report.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^ are you blabbering again?


Maybe this is why he relies on cut and paste so much.

----------


## Switch

How many Chines pilots would have followed a ‘big bang’ from the engine, with an exemplary take off? You utter fucking thoughtless moron. (Addressed to OhOh) You can read, but you can’t fly a commercial aircraft.

----------


## OhOh

> ^ are you blabbering again?





> great bang coming from the engine





> a ‘big bang’ from the engine


Thanks for one possibility. 

MK's posted report, in words and via it's video, only shows a plane burning on the grass. It does report: 




> the flight crew discovered* an abnormality*


Do have a link supporting your opinion that the engine blew up prior to the plane leaving the runway, prior to the wing dropping, and prior to the engine falling off?

The Washington Post reports slightly more:

*"The  aircraft left the runway* and* caught fire after the engine hit the  ground*. Currently the fire has been put out,” the aviation authorities  said in a statement.
*One  passenger, Long Anquan*, told China News Service that *during takeoff he  heard an unusual noise*, *after which* *the plane started to lean to one  side and hit the ground with its wing*. Long quickly bent forward and put  his hands over his head, but the impact was so strong that he was still  injured."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...33f_story.html


The ABC report's better video shows the nose on the ground and no engine under the left wing.

https://www.xxx.xxx.xx/news/2022-05-...fire/101062794

Which suggests the *"abnormality",* occurred 

1. prior to the plan leaving the runway, 

2. prior to the wing dropping, - possibly caused by the pilots turning off the runway, IMHO a dubious thing to be done by the pilots, as opposed to staying on the runway.

3. prior to an undercarriage failure, 

4. prior to the engine falling off 

5. and *only then* did the engine burst into flames.




> relies on cut and paste so much.


As opposed to you blaming the poster instead of offering an opinion:

I await the:




> the accident report.


Which may or may not indicate your colective, "big bang coming from the engine", being the:




> *the abnormality*

----------


## Troy

> Which may or may not indicate your "big bang coming from the engine" being the:


Agreed, it may not have come from the engine, it may not even have been two explosions. It's possible the MLG collapsed during the take-off roll, in which case the pilots were just passengers during the episode. However, a MLG collapse during take-off is a very rare event, I can't actually recall an occurrence, which is why I went with engine.

Either way, during the take-off roll you don't have time to get the books out so you brief RTO before take-off and stick to the plan in the event it is required.

No need to enlarge words or put them in bold. Nor is it necessary to waffle.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> *"The  aircraft left the runway* and* caught fire after the engine hit the  ground*.


So what are you saying hoohoo, "well done the pilots" for crashing the plane on take off?

----------


## harrybarracuda

Whooooo they'll have lost their no claims.

----------


## Switch

> Thanks for one possibility. 
> 
> MK's posted report, in words and via it's video, only shows a plane burning on the grass. It does report: 
> 
> 
> 
> Do have a link supporting your opinion that the engine blew up prior to the plane leaving the runway, prior to the wing dropping, and prior to the engine falling off?
> 
> The Washington Post reports slightly more:
> ...


I agree that your assumptions and thought processes are alarmingly naive. You have based the causes (in your own damaged mind) on the damage being done after the pilots aborted the take off. If there was nothing wrong prior to that, why would they abort?
Your tiny brain didn’t think it through did it.
Sick Buffalo syndrome.

----------


## OhOh

> MLG collapse during take-off is a very rare event


Generally, planes stay on the runway during take off. Although the area either side is normally well manicured.




> You have based the causes (in your own damaged mind) on the damage being done *after the pilots aborted the take off.* If there was nothing wrong prior to that, why would they abort?


The "damage" was the:




> the discovery of the abnormality


Which is a strange, to me, phrase. 

Everything else was after that. 

The effect, on the up till then normal take-off was, reportedly: 




> during takeoff, he heard an unusual noise


the plane leaving the runway to its right, a wing dropping, an engine dropping off and at some stage, one or more fires. Followed by an evacuation.

What caused the abnormality and reported sequential five events, I will leave to qualified crash investigators to report.

As, reportedly, the crash happened in 




> the Tibet region of China


Any blame attributed to *THE LORD* is unlikely.

----------


## Switch

^Thank fuck you are not an aircraft accident investigator.

----------


## misskit

*China Eastern crash probe eyes intentional action - sources



*WASHINGTON, May 17 (Reuters) - Investigators probing the crash of a China Eastern Airlines (600115.SS) jet are examining whether it was due to intentional action taken on the flight deck, with no evidence so far of a technical malfunction, two people briefed on the matter said.


The Wall Street Journal reported earlier Tuesday that flight data from one the Boeing 737-800's black boxes indicated that someone in the cockpit intentionally crashed the plane, citing people familiar with U.S. officials' preliminary assessment.

Boeing Co (BA.N), the maker of the jet, and the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) declined to comment and referred questions to Chinese regulators.


The Boeing 737-800, en route from Kunming to Guangzhou, crashed on March 21 in the mountains of Guangxi, after a sudden plunge from cruising altitude, killing all 123 passengers and nine crew members aboard.


It was mainland China's deadliest aviation disaster in 28 years.

MORE China Eastern crash probe eyes intentional action - sources | Reuters

----------


## misskit

*Thai Airways Posts a 155% Increase in Revenue


*THAI Airways International has posted a 155% increase in revenue and a narrower loss in the first quarter of this year, with liquidity surging to the highest point since the company filed for bankruptcy in 2020.


On Tuesday, the carrier announced its first-quarter revenue totaled 1.1 billion baht, up 155% from the same period last year.

An improvement in the airline’s performance is attributable to an increase in passenger and cargo traffic following the reopening of borders and the lifting of public health restrictions.


THAI Airways International and its subsidiaries posted a first-quarter loss of 3.2 billion baht, down from 8.9 billion baht a year ago. There was a loss of 1.49 baht per share, compared to a loss of 5.59 baht per share in the first quarter of last year.


The demand for international travel has increased significantly since the beginning of the year. Since the beginning of the month, Thailand’s entry rules have been relaxed, and Test & Go has been scrapped.


THAI also announced that it, and its subsidiary Thai Smile Airways, have increased or restored flight frequencies to many destinations.


Thai Airways booking


These include the Bangkok-London route returning to 14 flights per week from the current 11 weekly flights from May 29.


Bangkok-Frankfurt flights will also increase from 10 weekly flights to 14 weekly flights beginning June 25. The number of flights to India, Pakistan, and Asean will also increase.

The financially strapped Thai Airways has sold or is in the process of selling 45 aircraft, leaving it with just 58 aircraft, excluding three 777-300 extended range aircraft that it leased recently.

Thai Airways Posts A 155% Increase In Revenue

----------


## misskit

Murder-Suicides by Pilots Are Vexing Airlines as Deaths Mount

(Bloomberg) -- For decades, commercial airline travel has gotten progressively safer. But one cause of deaths has stubbornly persisted: pilots who intentionally crash in murder-suicides.

Preliminary evidence suggests the crash of a China Eastern Airlines Corp. jet in March may be the latest such tragedy, a person familiar with the investigation said. If confirmed, that would make it the fourth since 2013, bringing deaths in those crashes to 554.


So as aircraft become more reliable and pilots grow less susceptible to errors, fatalities caused by murder-suicides are becoming an increasingly large share of the total. While intentional acts traditionally aren’t included in air-crash statistics, they would be the second-largest category of deaths worldwide if they were, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. By comparison, 1,745 people died as a result of pilot error, mechanical failures or other causes on Western-built jets from 2012 through 2021.


“It’s scary,” said Malcolm Brenner, a former human-behavior investigator with the US National Transportation Safety Board who worked on the probe of the 1999 EgyptAir Flight 990 crash, which was found to be an intentional act. “It is a major cause of concern. It’s one the industry needs to address.”


So far, however, these rare but deadly acts have defied simple solutions. While improving mental-health care is a priority, those who have chosen to kill themselves and scores of others at the same time on jetliners mostly didn’t reveal any clues beforehand to coworkers, friends or family.


And because of the taboo nature of suicide, the cases create unique political and cultural challenges, at times leaving such events shrouded in mystery or open to dispute. The probe into Malaysia Airlines Flight 370’s disappearance over the Indian Ocean in 2014 found it was likely flown there on purpose, for example, but the Malaysian government’s report contains no information on who may have done so or why.


The risk of dying on an airliner has declined significantly in recent decades as a result of innovations in safety equipment, aircraft reliability and pilot training. After 5,005 people died on Western-built jets from 2001 through 2010, the total fell to 1,858 the next decade, according to data compiled by Boeing Co., AviationSafetyNetwork and accident reports. The odds of being on a plane involved in a fatal accident was about one in 10 million, according to Boeing.


But deaths attributed to pilot suicides bucked that trend, actually moving upward, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. If the China Eastern crash is confirmed as the latest such suicide, it will mean that deaths due to intentional acts have exceeded all other causes since the start of 2021.


So far, Chinese authorities have revealed few specifics about what led the China Eastern jet carrying 132 people to crash March 21. The flight, a Boeing 737-800 from Kunming to Guangzhou, was cruising at about 29,000 feet when it suddenly dove at high speed, according to Flightradar24 data. Surveillance videos show it hurtling nose-down toward the ground. 




Government authorities and Boeing haven’t announced any potential safety issues with the plane since then, suggesting no systemic faults have been uncovered. Preliminary information from the jet’s crash-proof data recorder indicates that someone in the cockpit initiated the dive, said a person familiar with the probe who wasn’t authorized to speak about it. The likelihood the crash was intentional was earlier reported by the trade publication Leeham News and Analysis as well as the Wall Street Journal.


China’s embassy in Washington didn’t respond directly to questions about whether the crash was intentional. Investigators are conducting the probe “in a science-based, meticulous and orderly manner” and will release information “in a timely and accurate fashion,” the embassy said in an email.


As with any crash investigation, it can take months or years to conduct the tests and analysis needed to pinpoint a cause and rule out even the most remotely possible system failures.




In addition to the Malaysian plane lost with 239 people aboard, a Lam-Mozambique Airlines jet with 33 people went down in Namibia in 2013 after the captain locked the copilot out of the cockpit. In 2015, a Germanwings GmbH copilot also locked out the captain before slamming into the side of a mountain in France with 150 aboard.

Four other intentional crashes occurred on airlines around the world prior to 2013, killing another 389 people, according to AviationSafetyNetwork and accident reports. The incidents don’t include terrorist acts, such as the planes that crashed on Sept. 11, 2001. 


After the Germanwings crash, which French investigators found was caused by a copilot suffering from mental-health problems, US and European aviation regulators expanded programs to give air crews access to more psychological treatment and encourage them to come forward without fear of losing their jobs.


Surveys of airline pilots have shown that about 4% to 8% have contemplated suicide, which is roughly the same rate as the population at large. Far fewer people actually attempt to carry it out -- and the handful of successful pilot murder-suicides on airliners is infinitesimally small by comparison.


Airline pilots must pass periodic medical exams to maintain their licenses and have been reluctant to report depression or other mental illness for fear of losing their livelihood, said Quay Snyder, a doctor specializing in aviation medicine who is co-leader of the US Aerospace Medical Association’s mental health working group. The association has joined with regulators, airlines and unions to create peer-to-peer counseling and other programs to allow pilots to receive treatment while retaining their licenses.


Safety Measures


But a panel advising the US Federal Aviation Administration in 2015 found there was “no convincing evidence” that screening for suicidal tendencies would prevent incidents such as Germanwings. 


“It is quite difficult to predict who is going to commit a murder-suicide,” Snyder said. 


Other possible ways to prevent pilot suicides run counter to long-standing safety or security measures. 


The sophisticated locks on cockpit doors that allow pilots to keep out other crewmembers were put in place to prevent hijackings. French authorities recommended against changing the door designs in the wake of the Germanwings crash, saying changes could undermine security.


One idea -- adding automated limits on a pilot’s actions in the cockpit -- would require a dramatic shift in the philosophy of aviation safety. 


“I’m a firm believer in the pilot who’s on the flight deck being the ultimate person or device in charge of the aircraft,” said Benjamin Berman, a former airline pilot who also worked as an accident investigator. “I don’t see technology supplanting that role. But that leaves the pilot in control, allowing him or her to do whatever they want.”


Multiple Pilots 


Even the simple solution to always have at least two people in the cockpit, which was recommended by European regulators after Germanwings, is no guarantee that someone bent on bringing down a plane couldn’t do it. While details of what happened aboard the China Eastern jet remain unclear, it had three pilots in the cockpit -- a captain, copilot and trainee -- according to Chinese media reports. 


For now, aviation groups are calling for expanding pilot access to mental-health treatments while acknowledging that routine psychological care might not make a difference in the extreme murder-suicide cases. 


“It’s so rare,” said David Schroeder, a former FAA psychologist who along with Snyder leads the Aerospace Medical Association’s mental health efforts. “That’s the difficulty. How do you try to predict that? How do you intervene when almost all flights are not like that?”

MSN

----------


## harrybarracuda

It's an interesting article, but for example in the case of the EgyptAir crash, the murderer had been arrested for a sexual assault case in New York and was on his way home to face the sack.
Simple common sense suggests he should never have been allowed near the cockpit.




> Sources close to the investigation paint a picture of el-Batouty as a man facing ruin in the light of a series of allegations of sexual misconduct, including exposing himself to teenage girls, propositioning hotel maids and stalking female hotel guests.
> On board the doomed flight was Hatem Rushdy, the chief of EgyptAir's Boeing 767 pilot group, who had just reprimanded el-Batouty. He told him that as a result of his sexual activities he would not fly transatlantic routes - which carry extra pay - again.
> "Rushdy told him 'this is your last flight' and el-Batouty's attitude was 'this is the last flight for you too'," the former EgyptAir captain Hanofy Taha Mahmoud Hamdy told the Los Angeles Times.


Revenge drove pilot to crash plane, killing 217 | World news | The Guardian

----------


## harrybarracuda

A man fell to his death at Gatwick yesterday after disembarking a plane without a helper.

The tragic accident happened just before 1pm on Wednesday, when the passenger fell down an escalator in the busy North terminal. After waiting in vain for special assistance he had left the plane and tried to make his way through the airport alone.

An easyJet spokesperson confirmed the shocking incident.

"A number of our cabin crew provided medical assistance to a passenger at Gatwick Airport whilst waiting for paramedics to arrive, however the passenger sadly later passed away, a spokesperson said.
"Our thoughts are with their family and friends at this difficult time."

https://www.euronews.com/travel/2022/06/17/passenger-dies-at-gatwick-airport-after-waiting-on-plane-for-assistance

----------


## prawnograph

*The end for SOFIA*



SOFIA is a Boeing 747SP aircraft modified to carry a 2.7 metre reflecting telescope (with an effective diameter of 2.5 metres) and usually based in California.

SOFIA spends winter months at Christchurch Airport, New Zealand, flying 10-hour overnight missions at 38,000-45,000 feet and above 99 per cent of Earths infrared-blocking atmosphere, so astronomers on board can study the solar system and beyond in ways not possible with ground-based telescopes.



One final Christchurch mission for world's largest airborne observatory
Jun 03 2022

The Stratospheric Observatory for Infrared Astronomy, also known as Sofia, will be carrying out a final mission from the Garden City before it is decommissioned at the end of September.

The joint venture between Nasa and the German Aerospace Centre (Deutsches Zentrum für Luft- und Raumfahrt, DLR) features a 2.7-metre reflecting telescope with an effective diameter of 2.5 metres, making it the world's largest airborne observatory.

The mission of the modified Boeing 747SP aircraft is to study the infrared universe and the solar system. This includes the formation of new solar systems, black holes and the birth and death of stars. In each 10-hour overnight flight it heads into the stratosphere at 38,000-45,000 feet, which puts it above 99% of the Earths infrared-blocking atmosphere.

Originally planned to have a 20-year lifespan, Sofia is being decommissioned early mainly due to budget. It reportedly costs US$85 million a year to operate, roughly the same as the operational expenses for the Hubble Space Telescope.

NASA: SOFIA

----------


## Takeovers

We will see. NASA has tried to terminate SOFIA for many years, by not requesting a budget for it. Every year Congress did provide a budget anyway. I don't know the status this year.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Heathrow has asked airlines to cancel 10% of their flights today as the airport faces a baggage backlog.

It comes after hundreds of passengers were left waiting for over three hours during the weekend to retrieve their luggage with no explanation from staff.

It is only a request at this stage so it is up to carriers to decide whether they will comply.

Airlines that have cancelled flights today include Virgin Atlantic, Flybe, Air France, Air Canada, TAP Portugal, Loganair, British Airways, Delta Air Lines, Brussels Airlines, Scandinavian Airlines, Aer Lingus, ITA Airlines, Eurowings, Lufthansa, KLM and Bulgaria Air.

A Heathrow spokesperson said: "We apologise unreservedly for the disruption passengers have faced over the course of this weekend.

"The technical issues affecting baggage systems have led to us making the decision to request airlines operating in Terminals 2 and 3 to consolidate their schedules on Monday 20th June.

"This will enable us to minimise ongoing impact and we ask that all passengers check with their airlines for the latest information."

Heathrow asks airlines to cancel 10% of flights today as airport faces baggage backlog | Business News | Sky News

----------


## Norton

> We will see. NASA has tried to terminate SOFIA for many years, by not requesting a budget for it. Every year Congress did provide a budget anyway. I don't know the status this year.


*NASA defends decision to shut down SOFIA
*
This was not the first time NASA proposed terminating SOFIA. The agencys budget proposals in fiscal years 2021 and 2022 also recommended shutting down SOFIA for a similar rationale, as did the agencys fiscal year 2015 budget request. All three times Congress restored funding for SOFIA.

Whats different this year is that the decadal survey has recommended ending the SOFIA science mission at the current mission extension at the end of September, said Paul Hertz, director of NASAs astrophysics advisory committee, during a NASA astrophysics town hall meeting May 3 that featured several questions about the planned SOFIA cancellation. Congress, he added, also endorsed all of the recommendations of the decadal survey, which included ending SOFIA, in the report accompanying the fiscal year 2022 omnibus spending bill.

NASA defends decision to shut down SOFIA - SpaceNews

----------


## Takeovers

> *NASA defends decision to shut down SOFIA
> *
> This was not the first time NASA proposed terminating SOFIA. The agency’s budget proposals in fiscal years 2021 and 2022 also recommended shutting down SOFIA for a similar rationale, as did the agency’s fiscal year 2015 budget request. All three times Congress restored funding for SOFIA.
> 
> “What’s different this year is that the decadal survey has recommended ending the SOFIA science mission at the current mission extension” at the end of September, said Paul Hertz, director of NASA’s astrophysics advisory committee, during a NASA astrophysics town hall meeting May 3 that featured several questions about the planned SOFIA cancellation. Congress, he added, also endorsed all of the recommendations of the decadal survey, which included ending SOFIA, in the report accompanying the fiscal year 2022 omnibus spending bill.
> 
> NASA defends decision to shut down SOFIA - SpaceNews



Thanks.

----------


## misskit

THAI Airways Forecasts Early Financial Rehab Exit

BANGKOK (NNT) - Thai Airways International (THAI) says it may be able to exit financial rehabilitation and resume stock trading sooner than initially predicted.


According to THAI’s chief of finance and accounting, Chai Eamsiri, the airline’s expenditure cuts and measures to streamline operations and financial performance will enable revenue growth. With these developments, the airline may be able to resolve its trading suspension issue with the Thai Stock Exchange (SET) before the 2025 deadline.


Following the relaxation of travel restrictions, the airline’s operational losses fell to 3.1 billion baht in the first quarter of this year, down from 6.9 billion baht for the same period last year.


Chai added that THAI is working on mobilizing a new fund as part of the restructuring program currently underway. The company will also sell assets worth about 2 billion baht in order to shift its focus to online ticket sales.


The International Air Transport Association (IATA) has meanwhile revised the airline industry’s 2022 financial performance. Industry losses are expected to fall to 9.7 billion dollars from an initial forecast of 11.6 billion. In its revision, the association cited increased travel demand - a trend it sees continuing as more countries move to relax curbs.

THAI Airways Forecasts Early Financial Rehab Exit

----------


## S Landreth

Story, I read yesterday said there were 130, 140 people on board.


Blaze put out after plane's landing gear catches fire at MIA

Three people have been transported to a local hospital Tuesday afternoon after a plane's landing gear caught on fire while arriving at Miami International Airport.

The plane, Red Air SRL 203, arrived at MIA from the Dominican Republic at around 5:30 p.m.

There were 126 passengers on board. Miami-Dade Fire Rescue said they were all accounted for, and only three had to be hospitalized.

The three hospitalized reportedly suffered minor injuries.

CBS4's cameras showed damage to the right wing of the aircraft. White foam was used by firefighters to put out the fire.

Part of the plane could be seen on the grass to the side of the runway.

Passengers were being deplaned and boarded buses that transported them to the main terminal.

----------


## misskit

Airlines Strike in Europe, UK Just as Thailand Fully Reopens


A wave of airlines have gone on strike in Europe and the UK disrupting people’s travel plans just as Thailand fully reopens without restrictions.



Thousands of flights with airlines have been canceled due to staffing shortages at Ryanair, EasyJet Plc, British Airways, and Aeroports de Paris (ADP). In the United Kingdom, rail strikes have exacerbated the transport chaos.


In spite of Europeans’ rebounding demand for travel, labor tensions and airport logistics limits are impeding the aviation industry’s long-awaited post-pandemic revival.


There have been chaotic scenes at airports in Amsterdam, London, Frankfurt, and Paris, with lines of people waiting for hours only to find out that their flights have been canceled.


Further mayhem looms as unscrupulous unions seek to capitalize on carriers’ desperate attempts to cash in on the summer bookings surge. Above all to end losses and repair balance sheets after the pandemic plunged airlines into almost bankruptcy.


Unions are pressing demands for pay increases to keep up with inflation, better working conditions, and benefits.


Workers of Airlines demanding more pay


On Friday, Ryanair cabin crew members in Spain, Portugal, and Belgium began a three-day strike, which will be joined by colleagues in France on Saturday and Italy on Sunday.

According to Ryanair, fewer than 2% of its flights were disrupted by Friday’s strikes, although about 40% of its Belgian services were affected.


In Spain, EasyJet workers will walk out for nine days in staggered shifts starting on July 1, while its Spanish workers are set to take more strike action next Friday.


British Airways employees at London Heathrow airport will also take part in industrial action soon. As part of its effort to avert a second strike on July 1, ADP has been in talks with unions at Paris’s Charles de Gaulle and Orly airports.


A quarter of all flights at CDG were canceled and two runways were closed as a result of the one on June 9.

An ongoing rail strike in the UK has exacerbated the transport crisis, making access to and from airports more difficult.




Rail Strike and flight cancellations


The dispute was also triggered by wage claims, though unlike in the aviation sector, workers are seeking guarantees that there will be no compulsory redundancies in an industry that appears to have been fundamentally affected by the Covid upheaval.


According to the Transport Salaried Staffs Association, Britain faces a “long-running summer of discontent” across the rail network.


In the meantime, Deutsche Lufthansa AG announced on Friday that 3,100 flights will be canceled in July and August. Flight caps have been announced at London Gatwick and Amsterdam Schiphol, two of the region’s biggest hubs.


In Belgium, Brussels Airlines said about 315 flights will be canceled with pilots and cabin staff on strike. Travelers are bearing the brunt of the chaos. For many, dream vacations are starting off badly or long-planned professional trips are having to be rerouted.


At Madrid’s Barajas Airport on Friday, Loreto, who didn’t want to give her surname, waited in line for her KLM flight to Thailand, where she was traveling with two friends.


As she zipped her suitcase tightly, she said, “There is no information. I thought they’d send us a list of canceled flights, but we haven’t seen it anywhere.”


Fuel prices drive up ticket prices


Meanwhile, in the US, American Airlines, Southwest Airlines, United Airlines, and Delta Airlines have all reported pilot and cabin crew shortages, causing canceled flights and delays throughout the United States.


Airline tickets have also seen a 40 percent increase as fuel prices surge in the US due to President Biden’s failed energy policies.


American Airlines plans to drop service to four U.S. cities, while United Airlines and Delta Air Lines have each scaled back service between some smaller cities and their hubs, citing a lack of pilots and cabin crew.


During the pandemic, American Airlines, United Airlines, and Delta Airlines shed aviators only to be caught flat-footed when travel demand spiked, they have raised pilot wages to entice pilots to return after mass layoffs.

Airlines Strike In Europe, UK Just As Thailand Fully Reopens

----------


## harrybarracuda

As Thailand has opened up, puffy's pointless war has obviously inflated fuel prices and the airlines are also no doubt trying to take advantage - ticket prices have leapt.

----------


## harrybarracuda

What a shit show.




> *Flights cancelled from Heathrow due to 'higher passenger numbers than airport can serve'*
> 
> Customers who have been affected should be contacted by their airline. However, some passengers did not find out their flights were cancelled until they arrived at what is the UK's busiest airport.
> 
> 
> More flights from Heathrow have been cancelled today due to passenger numbers exceeding the airport's maximum capacity.
> A total of 30 flights have been removed from the morning schedule as the travel chaos across UK airports continues.
> 
> 
> ...


Flights cancelled from Heathrow due to 'higher passenger numbers than airport can serve' | Travel News | Sky News

----------


## baldrick

> as unscrupulous unions





> as fuel prices surge in the US due to President Biden’s failed energy policies


er , wha ?




> they have raised pilot wages to entice pilots to return after mass layoffs.


the pilot industry seems to have a bit of catching up to do

----------


## harrybarracuda

OK It's not really airline news but I figure you're all aircraft buffs so:

Pilot landed his plane on a road after the engine started failing.

There must have been a few brown trouser moments. Amazingly he's only had his PPL since October.

Good job.

----------


## OhOh

> Good job.


A very competent and polite pilot, pulling over to the right to park up.

----------


## Backspin

A Russian airline will start flying to Laos via Vladivostok, with Laos acting as a hub for Russian travelers to Southeast Asia. The Lao authorities reportedly gave assurances that Russian Airbus 330 planes will not be impounded.

Российская авиакомпания запустит чартерные рейсы из Владивостока в Лаос и оттуда — в Таиланд – Новости Владивостока на VL.ru

----------


## Norton

London's Heathrow Airport is capping daily passenger numbers for the summer and telling airlines to stop selling tickets as it steps up efforts to quell travel chaos caused by soaring travel demand and staff shortages. 

Britain's busiest airport said Tuesday that it's setting a limit of 100,000 passengers that it can handle each day through September 11. The restriction is likely to result in more canceled flights even after airlines already slashed thousands of flights from their summer schedules.

More...

London's Heathrow Airport caps daily passenger numbers to quell summer travel chaos - CBS News

----------


## tomcat

The 10 Worst Airports in Europe for Delays Right Now

London Heathrow may be in the news, but it’s far from the worst offender. 




Passengers faced long delays at Charles de Gaulle in Paris on July 2 due to a strike by airport workers.Photographer: Bloomberg/Bloomberg
By Nikki Ekstein

July 13, 2022 at 3:08 AM GMT+7

At London Heathrow, the chaos has gotten so intense—between the interminable security queues, rampant flight delays and cancellations, and too few luggage handlers to match travelers with their bags—that the airport has taken the drastic move of limiting airline ticket sales until it can get its act together.

It may be the most prominent example of airport dysfunction in this summer of travel hell, but it’s hardly the worst. According to newly released data from Hopper Inc, the Goldman-backed online travel agency whose roots are in aviation and big data, Heathrow doesn’t even rank among Europe’s worst 10 airports for delays this month. It falls 15th on that list, with an average of 51% of its flights being delayed since the beginning of July.

Uncollected luggage piling up at Heathrow on July 8.
Photographer: PAUL ELLIS/AFP

The site’s data is collected via Official Aviation Guide, a leading provider of digital flight information and analytics for airports, airlines, and travel tech companies, for the purpose of keeping customers informed about disruptions on their booked routes. The figures, which reflect a three-day lag, are more current than any public data source.

Here are the 10 airports that currently rank worst for delays according to Hopper—along with the 10 airports that are actually pulling off a relatively smooth summer of on-time performance.

And while it’s true that the worst offenders all underperform compared to Heathrow, a Hopper spokesperson offers the following context: “On a volume basis, London Heathrow is much larger than most airports, and our ranking is based on percentage of delays not number of people impacted.”

Similarly, the figures are averages for the first nine days of July; on its worst travel days, Heathrow’s delays hit 62% of flights, which would have landed it right on the bottom 10 list, and with exponentially thousands more travelers impacted.
In other words, don’t take the data in absolute terms—but do be warned that delays likely lie ahead. If your travel plans are flexible, it might be worth looking into a rebook to minimize the risk. 

Worst 10 Airports in Europe for Delayed Flights (July 2022)


Travelers queue at a customer service desk at Brussels International Airport, currently Europe’s worst airport for delays.
Photographer: Valeria Mongelli/Bloomberg

Brussels Airport (BRU)
Brussels, Belgium
72% delayed, 2.5% canceled

Frankfurt International Airport (FRA)
Frankfurt, Germany
68% delayed, 7.8% canceled

Eindhoven Airport (EIN)
Eindhoven, Netherlands
67% delayed, 1.8% canceled

Luton Airport (LTN)
London, United Kingdom
66% delayed, 2.7% canceled

Liszt Ferenc International Airport (BUD)
Budapest, Hungary
65% delayed, 2.1% canceled



Charles de Gaulle ranks 7th worst in terms of airport delays.
Photographer: Benjamin Girette/Bloomberg

Lisbon Airport (LIS)
Lisbon, Portugal
65% delayed, 4.8% canceled

Charles De Gaulle Airport (CDG)
Paris, France
62% delayed, 3.1% canceled


Schiphol Airport (AMS)
Amsterdam, Netherlands
61% delayed, 5.2% canceled

Cote D'Azur Airport (NCE)
Nice, France
60% delayed, 3.4% canceled

Gatwick Airport (LGW)
London, United Kingdom
59% delayed, 1.4% canceled

Best 10 Airports in Europe for On-Time Departures (July 2022)


Dublin International Airport has the 4th best on-time stats in Europe. 
Photographer: Damien Storan - PA Images/PA Images

Bergamo/Orio al Serio Airport (BGY)
Bergamo, Italy
3% delayed, 1.0% canceled

Gran Canaria Airport (LPA)
Gran Canaria, Spain
8% delayed, 0.3% canceled

Otopeni International Airport (OTP)
Bucharest, Romania
10% delayed, 1.7% canceled

Dublin International Airport (DUB)
Dublin, Ireland
15% delayed, 1.6% canceled

Fontanarossa Airport (CTA)
Catania, Italy
16% delayed, 1.1% canceled


Madrid’s airport ranks 6th best on Hopper’s list.
Photographer: Europa Press News/Europa Press

Adolfo Suarez-Barajas Airport (MAD)
Madrid, Spain
19% delayed, 0.4% canceled

Alicante Airport (ALC)
Province of Alicante, Spain
20% delayed, 3.4% canceled

Marseille Airport (MRS)
Marseille, France
20% delayed, 2.0% canceled

Orly Field (ORY)
Paris, France
21% delayed, 1.2% canceled

Malaga Airport (AGP)
Malaga, Spain
24% delayed, 3.3% canceled

----------


## Backspin

The airline industry cant function anymore. It is all due to the monetary inflation since covid 19. Everyone has money. There is artificially too much demand and not enough supply. There is shortages of pilots, cabin crew, airframes and engines. Basically everything. That is not a coincidence. You cant print pilots, or aircraft. But you can print money

----------


## Troy

^ Well, if skiddy says so then you know it's a load of bollox.

If it was a shortage of planes and crews then there wouldn't be this mess you idiot. The problem is a shortage of ground staff at the airports because they were laid off during covid. 

I'm not sure if the passenger cap at Heathrow is even legal, it's certainly controversial, and CAA is getting involved. It's going to cost a lot on compensation claims.

----------


## Shutree

> The problem is a shortage of ground staff at the airports


That was my recent experience at Gatwick. One hour to get the bags off the plane on arrival. Going out, the checkin queue was one hour then security was chaos, another hour. After we had boarded the plane, 20 minutes after scheduled departure time, it was another hour and a half before they _started_ loading the bags. We left about 2 hours late.

----------


## cyrille

> The airline industry cant function anymore. It is all due to the monetary inflation since covid 19. Everyone has money. There is artificially too much demand and not enough supply. There is shortages of pilots, cabin crew, airframes and engines. Basically everything. That is not a coincidence. You cant print pilots, or aircraft. But you can print money


There's a wide variety of complete bollocks there, even by your standards.

'Everyone has money'
'There is artificially too much demand'
'shortages of pilots, cabin crew, airframes and engines'

All complete  :poo:  certainly for the UK, and most likely for the world.

----------


## malmomike77

> There's a wide variety of complete bollocks there, even by your standards.


indeed.

Troy has it




> The problem is a shortage of ground staff at the airports because they were laid off during covid.


In the UK its compounded by the time it takes to run security checks on newly recruited staff, this takes time anyway but its further exacerbated by the vetting agency staff suffering massive demand and backlogs.

The airports are pressuring the Govt to relax vetting checks to speed up the process but the Govt has rightly told them to piss off, its not putting safety at risk.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Sorry, hands up who *doesn't* know skidmark is a gormless c u n t?

 :smiley laughing:

----------


## harrybarracuda

Put your hand down, skiddy.

----------


## OhOh

*Meanwhile, a selection of articles published in the colonies.

*_June articles but I suspect the airlie staff are still being blamed._*
*
Marketplace - Business News & Economic Stories For Everyone.  Latest Stories

Jun 22, 2565 BE  But _airlines_ and airports can't keep up. There's a _shortage_ of pilots, _crew_ and all sorts of _airport staff_. Southwest pilots are picketing ...

*Airline staff shortages are threatening to ruin your holidays*

https://fortune.com  2022/06/17  summer-travel-202...

Jun 17, 2565 BE  _Airline staff shortages_ are threatening to ruin your summer holidaysand it could take 12 months before they get better. By. Anurag Kotoky.

*Airline staff shortages expected to last into 2023 - Axios*

https://www.axios.com  Economy & Business

Jun 19, 2565 BE  _Airline_ staffing _shortages_, which are already disrupting summer vacation plans, could extend well into 2023, some industry officials say.

*U.S. pilot shortage forces airlines to cut flights, scramble for ...*

https://www.cnbc.com  2022/05/15  us-pilot-shortage...

May 15, 2565 BE  A severe pilot _shortage_ in the _U.S._ leaves _airlines_ scrambling for solutions · The pandemic exacerbated a pilot _shortage_ by slowing down training ...

*Pilot shortage to blame for summer travel headaches*

https://www.usatoday.com  airline-news  2022/06/24

Jun 24, 2565 BE  It's been a tough summer for air passengers in the _U.S._. Many days have seen thousands of _flight_ delays and cancellations, and _airlines_ are ...

*Why Are Flights Being Cancelled? Experts Say to Blame Lack ...*

https://www.businessinsider.com  News

Jun 14, 2565 BE  _Airlines_ globally have cancelled hundreds of _flights_, citing labor _shortages_. · Insider spoke to _aviation_ consultants and a union boss to ...

*Air travel is a mess. Here's why. - MSU Denver RED*

https://red.msudenver.edu  Explore Stories

Jun 29, 2565 BE  Like many industries, _airlines_ are experiencing _staff shortages_. But unlike other industries that can hire new employees and get them ...

*Airline Staff Shortages Threaten to Ruin Millions of Summer .*
https://www.bloomberg.com  news  articles  airlines-...

Jun 16, 2565 BE  We see this predominantly, very clearly in Europe. We see this in North _America_. We see it in Malaysia, Izham said at a forum in Singapore

----------


## harrybarracuda

Well I didn't say skiddy was the *only* gormless c u n t, did I?





> Emirates airline rejected an order from Heathrow Airport for it to cancel flights to comply with a cap on passenger numbers.
> The west London airport this week introduced a daily 100,000 passenger limit, meaning flights must be rescheduled to other airports or cancelled.
> On Tuesday, it appealed to airlines to stop selling summer tickets as it imposed the cap, which will remain until September 11.
> Chaotic scenes at terminals have led to long queues, with passengers lining up outside during a heatwave, mountains of luggage not returned to customers and thousands of flights scrapped. On Wednesday, a US Delta plane carrying only luggage flew out of Heathrow after it was forced to improvise to reunite passengers with their possessions.


Emirates airline rejects Heathrow demand to cancel flights

----------


## can123

Some things have changed for the better. 'arry no longer professes to be an IT expert and shows he can make a tit of himself when discussing a diverse range of topics. Please send me lots of greens, Mr Cuda, I need them as red does not suit me.

----------


## Looper

*Bogged airplane recovered at Rockhampton airport five days after sinking in soft ground*



https://www.abc. net.au/news/2022-07-16/recovery-efforts-continue-for-bogged-rockhampton-airport-plane/101241174


In January of either 2012 or 2013 I went on a picnic date with a lady who professed to being a Qantas pilot. The date did not go anywhere (I crashed and burned) but I do remember that she said she flew Boeing 717s on the Brisbane to Rockhampton route.

Just wondering if she might be this luckless pilot...

In these wokeish times any hint of the pilot being a lady would be hushed up and the news neutered and degenderised so we will never know.

----------


## Backspin

757 comeback ? Probably not. Boeing cant seem to take on big projects anymore

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Some things have changed for the better. 'arry no longer professes to be an IT expert and shows he can make a tit of himself when discussing a diverse range of topics. Please send me lots of greens, Mr Cuda, I need them as red does not suit me.


No one asks dumb IT questions any more as I've educated them.

Or do you have a dumb one left?

----------


## Troy

> 757 comeback ? Probably not. Boeing cant seem to take on big projects anymore


It cost too much to produce and was undercut by the 737NG family for the lower passenger number market and not as good as the 767 on the higher passenger number market.

Isn't the 787 filling the gap between the 737 and the 777?

----------


## harrybarracuda

*Nok Air plane slides off runway in Chiang Rai, all flights cancelled*

A Nok Air Boeing 737-800 skidded off the runway while landing at the Mae Fah Luang international airport in the northern province of Chiang Rai in heavy rain on Saturday night but nobody was hurt.
According to an announcement issued by the airline on Saturday, Nok Air Flight DD108 (Don Mueang - Chiang Rai) with 164 passengers and six crew members on board departed from Don Mueang airport at 8.03pm and arrived at Mae Fah Luang airport at 9.06pm.

While landing, the aircraft slid off the runway because of the heavy rain but the pilots managed to safely bring the aircraft to a halt. All of the passengers and crew members were safely moved to the passenger building. Nobody was injured.

An investigation was underway into the incident.
According to the announcement, the company took good care of the passengers by providing them with snacks and drinks while waiting for their luggage.
However, some of the passengers posted comments on Facebook, saying that they were not provided with any refreshments as announced by the airline.


Nok Air said on Sunday that all flights to Chiang Rai were cancelled.
The Mae Fah Luang airport also said the runway would be closed on Sunday between 6am and 10pm due to the incident.

As a result, Thai Smile, Thai Vietjet and Thai Air Asia will on Sunday transport their departing passengers by bus from Mae Fah Luang airport in Chiang Rai to Chiang Mai international airport, from where they can further travel by air to their destinations.
Passengers continued to air anger at the low-cost airline about its claims it had helped passengers on the plane and others with flight bookings.
Many complained about a busy signal at its call centre 1318, saying they tried calling for hours without anyone picking up.  They only heard an automated reply apologising for inconvenience as the line was busy.
They also criticised Nok Air for failing to take care of passengers with outgoing flights after other airlines arranged buses to take their customers to the airport in Chiang Mai. 
A Facebook user named Warangkhana Wongchai said after the incident, crew members kept most passengers in the aircraft for about an hour, allowing fewer than 20 to leave. They were eventually permitted to disembark only after mounting complaints from passengers saying they found it difficult to breathe in the cabin, she said.

Nok Air plane slides off runway in Chiang Rai, all flights cancelled

----------


## misskit

Can you imagine the run on the restrooms in the terminal after that ordeal?

----------


## harrybarracuda

Having once spent about 6 hours taxiing around Heathrow without so much as a drink, I think they got off very lightly.

----------


## misskit

I meant they needed to clean their pants out.  :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

> I meant they needed to clean their pants out.


So do I.

 :Smile:

----------


## misskit

*Chiang Rai Runway Closed For 4 Days After Nok Air Jet Skids*

CTN News) – After a Nok Air plane skidded off the runway in heavy rain at Chiang Rai airport on Saturday night, the airport will be closed for four days.


Initially, the airport issued a Notice to Airmen (Notam) to all airlines, notifying them that the airport would be closed on Sunday as a result of weather conditions. Nevertheless, the closure was extended until August 3.


Mae Fah Luang airport explained that officials needed time to remove the stricken Nok Air plane after it careered off the runway.

It happened around 9pm on Saturday as Nok Air flight DD108 attempted to land in heavy rain. From Bangkok’s Don Mueang airport, the Boeing 737-800 carried 164 passengers and six crew members.


According to Nok Air, the pilot of the plane managed to bring the aircraft to a safe stop and then transport all of the passengers and crew members to the terminal safely. The accident is being investigated.


Chiang Rai Runway Closed For 4 Days After Nok Air Jet Skids

----------


## harrybarracuda

*Thai Airways extends travel rebookings by 12 months*


Would-be travellers on Thai Airways flights will see any travel credit remain valid until the end of 2023.


The Star Alliance member has added 12 months to the original use-by date of 31 December 2022 for “original tickets for flight reservations on/after 01 Jan 2020 and on/before 14 Oct 2021” which remain "active in the Reservations system with an ‘open’ coupon status (not cancelled or refunded).”


With Thailand now largely reopen following the removal of on-arrival testing and the Thailand Pass at the end of June – although pre-departure tests are still required – passengers with outstanding tickets can rebook “without penalty or additional fare collection if booked on the same route and in the same booking class” the airline says.


You can also choose to change your routing and which class you’re flying in, although naturally an adjustment in fares will apply – in both cases, travel must be completed by 31 December 2023.


However, Thai Airways says that refunds against cancelled flights remains an ongoing process and it is  "unable to estimate the settlement time for individual refunds” from the airline or via travel agents.


“If you have applied for a ticket refund, either for a ticket issued by a travel agent, or a ticket issued via thaiairways.com, please be reminded that the refund process is ongoing under the direction of the Court-approved business rehabilitation plan.”


However, visitors could find Thailand a more expensive destination than in the past two years with the country now planning to raise hotel rates to pre-pandemic levels to support a faster recovery of the industry. 


Thailand’s tourism ministry plans to ask hotel operators to implement a dual-tariff structure under which foreign visitors may be charged rates similar to pre-pandemic days while locals may continue to enjoy discounted rates.


Hotels in tourism hotspots such as Bangkok, Phuket, Krabi and Koh Samui continue to offer huge discounts to draw back visitors after the pandemic pushed room occupancy rates to about 30%.


Thai Airways extends travel rebookings by 12 months - Executive Traveller

----------


## baldrick

> although pre-departure tests are still required


Wha ?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Wha ?


That's not even what it says on the article they link to

 :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

The captain of the Nok Air flight that slid off the runway at Chiang Rai airport will be summoned by regulators to explain why passengers were kept on board the aircraft for about an hour after the accident.

Suttipong Kongpool, director general of the Civil Aviation Authority of Thailand (CAAT), said on Monday that the chief pilot of flight DD108 will be ordered to defend the decision.

"The rationale behind the decision is what the CAAT needs to hear from the captain," Mr Suttipong told the "Inside Thailand" news programme.

The Don Mueang-Chiang Rai flight with 164 passengers and six crew slid off the runway and its undercarriage collapsed as it landed in heavy rain at Mae Fah Luang in the northern province on Saturday night. There were no injuries.

The captain turned off the engines of the 737-800 Boeing aircraft after the accident, leaving the passenger cabin in darkness and without air conditioning.

The passengers were then told to stay on board until buses arranged by the airline arrived to take them to the terminal.
After about an hour fewer than 20 passengers had left by vans. The remaining passengers started complaining about the stuffy conditions in the cabin, the lack of fresh air causing breathing problems and the possible dangers of staying in their seats in the dark.

In a video taken by a passenger in the cabin, a woman crew member was heard trying to calm down the angry passengers and telling them to remain seated. She said, "Passengers are not allowed on runways."

The passengers insisted on leaving the plane and the captain eventually permitted one of the eight emergency exit doors to be opened so they could disembark on a slide.

Under international aviation protocols, all passengers must be evacuated from the aircraft within 90 seconds of a serious incident, according to the CAAT chief. But the evacuation rules were also flexible,  depending on the circumstances and safety of the passengers and aircraft, he said.

"The captain is the one who makes the decision on evacuation after assessing the situation, including external factors,"  Mr Suttipong said.

The CAAT chief also said passengers were allowed to stand on runways in case of emergency, although they were off limits in normal circumstances.

It was not known whether the captain was a man or a woman.

Mr Suttipong said the aviation regulator would not be quick to blame the chief pilot for the slow evacuation  that kept most passengers inside the aircraft without sufficient air to breathe. Heavy rain and the need to wait for the buses could be among the reasons for the decision, he said.

Nok Air has also not explained the decision. 

Nok Air chief executive Wutthiphum Jurangkool told the Stock Exchange of Thailand in a filing on Monday that the airline was in compliance with all aviation safety guidelines to ensure the safety of all passengers. The airline would investigate the accident, he said.

Mae Fah Luang airport management said on Monday the airport strictly followed emergency procedures after the accident on Saturday night. This included the quick dispatch of fire engines to the aircraft and the closure of the runway for the safety of other airplanes.

The airport remains closed until Wednesday, while the Boeing jet is removed and the runway examined for damage.

Pilot must explain why passengers were kept aboard damaged plane

----------


## harrybarracuda

What a shit show.




> British Airways has suspended selling short-haul flights from Heathrow for at least a week - as another European airport announced it was extending a cap on passenger numbers.
> 
> The decision to stop new bookings on domestic and European services until and including Monday is to comply with Heathrow's cap on passenger numbers, BA confirmed.


British Airways selling new tickets for short-haul flights from Heathrow - as European airport extends capacity cap | UK News | Sky News

----------


## misskit

*CAAT advises Thai airlines to avoid air space over and near Taiwan*

The Civil Aviation Authority of Thailand (CAAT) has issued an advisory to all Thai airlines to avoid air space around Taiwan, as the Chinese government has declared the airspace a “dangerous zone” due to its military exercises in the area.


All Thai airlines are instructed, by the CAAT, to adhere to China’s NOTAM (Notice to Airmen) strictly and to check regularly for any new NOTAM issued by China.


The announcement came after China’s Defence Ministry announced that they will stage air and sea military drills around Taiwan, from Thursday to Sunday, to protest a recent visit by US House Speaker Nancy Pelosi to Taiwan.

CAAT advises Thai airlines to avoid air space over and near Taiwan | Thai PBS World : The latest Thai news in English, News Headlines, World News and News Broadcasts in both Thai and English. We bring Thailand to the world

----------


## misskit

Chiang Rai International Airport extends its closure until Friday, August 5th, due to slow aircraft removal process

The Airports of Thailand (AOT) on Wednesday, August 3rd, announced the closure extension of Mae Fah Luang – Chiang Rai International Airport until August 5th as a Boeing aircraft removal was struggling due to geographical conditions.


According to the authorities, the removal of the Boeing 737-800 aircraft from the runway was still unsuccessful as of Tuesday at midnight because the plane’s left main landing gear collapsed due to the ground sinking caused by constant heavy rains.


Dr. Somchanok Tiamtiabrat, General Manager of Mae Fah Luang – Chiang Rai International Airport, stated that the removal process may need a lot of additional equipment which would take some time to transport to the airport before being used to remove the aircraft.


Therefore, the AOT announces the extension of the runway closure from August 3rd to 10:00 PM. on August 5th. All flights to and from the airport, therefore, remain canceled.

Attention Required! | Cloudflare

----------


## harrybarracuda

I have visions of someone sitting in a meeting yesterday, saying "I thought you were ordering the cranes".

----------


## harrybarracuda

Hands up whose got a Thai Airways flight coming up?

 :Smile: 




> German investigators believe a shortened approach route given to a Thai Airways Airbus A350-900 crew generated increased time stress, resulting in a botched high-speed descent to Frankfurt that took the twinjet far below the glideslope.
> 
> The aircraft, arriving at night, was just 668ft above ground, while still 6.43nm from the threshold of runway 07R, before it climbed away during a go-around.
> 
> German investigation authority BFU states that four pilots  the captain, first officer, and two cruise pilots  were in the cockpit. _The cruise pilots were supposed to act as safety observers, and intervene if necessary, but neither pointed out to the operating pilots that the approach was too low._
> 
> The crew had been expecting to follow a preceding aircraft to 07R, and the approach route had been entered into the flight-management system.
> 
> But a passenger medical situation had developed earlier in the flight and, as a result, the controller feeding traffic into the ILS path gave it priority and issued the crew with instructions which shortened the approach, putting the A350 ahead of the preceding aircraft.
> ...

----------


## Troy

> Hands up whose got a Thai Airways flight c


Oh great...I'm flying Thai in a A-350 in 10 days time...

----------


## harrybarracuda

Interesting. 




> *Archer receives $10 million pre-delivery payment from United Airlines for 100 eVTOL aircraft*
> 
> 
> 
> Good news for Archer Aviation as it moves closer to commercialisation and the initial production of its eVTOL aircraft with a payment of $10 million from United Airlines in respect of pre-delivery payment for its order of 100 eVTOL aircraft.
> 
> 
> The pre-delivery cash deposit continues a trend of strong support by the airline throughout the development of Archer's aircraft. Recently, United formed a Joint eVTOL Advisory Committee with Archer, allowing the parties to work more closely on eVTOL maintenance and operational matters. Committee members include Archer’s operations and maintenance leadership, as well as leadership from United’s maintenance, materials, and engineering groups.
> 
> ...


Air101: Archer receives $10 million pre-delivery payment from United Airlines for 100 eVTOL aircraft

----------


## harrybarracuda

Two Air France pilots were suspended after fighting in the cockpit while airborne, the airline has said.
It happened during a flight between Geneva and Paris in June.

The dispute began shortly after take-off, according to La Tribune newspaper, with one pilot apparently hitting the other after they grabbed each other's collars.

Cabin crew intervened and one of the attendants spent the rest of the flight in the cockpit, the report added.
Air France said the plane landed safely.

The pilots are awaiting a decision from management over their "totally inappropriate behaviour", a spokeswoman quoted by Bloomberg said.

News of the incident emerged after France's air investigation agency, BEA, issued a report saying some Air France pilots lack rigour in terms of respecting procedures during safety incidents.

The report focused on a fuel leak on a flight from Brazzaville in the Republic of Congo to Paris in December 2020.

Pilots rerouted the plane but did not cut power to the engine affected or land as soon as possible, in line with leak procedure.

While the plane landed safely in Chad, the engine could have caught fire, BEA said.

It also mentioned three similar cases between 2017 and 2022.

Air France said it was carrying out a safety audit and pledged to follow BEA's recommendations, which include allowing pilots to study their flights afterwards.

The airline stressed that it flies hundreds of flights daily and the report mentions only four such safety incidents.

Air France pilots' unions have insisted that security is paramount and defended pilot actions during emergency situations.

Air France pilots suspended after fighting in cockpit after take-off | World News | Sky News

----------


## Troy

> Oh great...I'm flying Thai in a A-350 in 10 days time...


First flight in an A350-900, definitely prefer it to the 777-300ER, quieter and more spacious. Wife and I felt more relaxed after a longer flight (due to routing because of war).

----------


## misskit

*The Plane’s a Filthy Mess. Who’s to Blame?*

The camera pans across the floor below two rows of passenger seats. The carpet is littered with so many potato chip crumbs it appears as if there was a recent in-flight snowfall.


“Cabin crew told us they don’t clean between flights,” reads the caption on a TikTok video taken on a recent Ryanair flight from the Canary Islands to London.

In another recent video, a passenger’s hand thumps the seat, causing a dense cloud of dust-like particles — also resembling snow — to rise up on a Qantas flight within Australia.


“OMG that is foul,” one commenter wrote on Facebook.


Pandemic travel has been chaotic and frustrating. But for the most part, it has been relatively clean, with many airlines committing to robust sanitation practices early in the pandemic, and numerous virus-wary travelers additionally wiping down their areas.


Over the past week, two widely shared videos of particularly filthy planes have raised concerns that the days of clean flights may be going the way of mask wear. They also sparked a debate about whether flight crew or passengers carry the responsibility for messes.


“Flight attendants are not maids,” said Nicole D. Lawson, a flight attendant from New Jersey who does not work for either airline, but has been frustrated by how many passengers fail to take advantage of numerous opportunities to throw their trash in a bag.

What particularly irked Scott, 23, a travel-focused content creator from Essex, England, who posted the Ryanair video, was the flight crew’s attitude. (Scott declined to use his full name because of his day job as a police officer.)


“There was rubbish everywhere,” he said in a phone interview. Beyond all the “crisps” littering the aisles, he spotted a spilled drink and what appeared to be vomit. The crew not only rudely told him that it was not their job to help him clean it up, he said, but they also declined his request for a wipe.


What surprised him about the response he and his partner got on their TikTok and Instagram accounts was how many of the more than 2,000 comments defended the crew.


“They have 25 minutes on the ground they can barely complete safety checks,” one person wrote in a well-liked comment. “Don’t blame them blame the people who left it.”


“If my flight is 20 quid I can handle a few crumbs,” wrote another. (Twenty quid, or pounds, is equivalent to about $23.)


And though the Irish carrier does offer absurdly cheap flights — currently its site advertises international flights for as little as $8 — Scott said he and his partner paid around £200 or about $230 each, which is why he would expect more.


As to what the airline’s official policy on cleaning is, it’s somewhat unclear. In May 2020, Michael O’Leary, the chief executive of Ryanair, told The Times, a British daily newspaper, that the airline did not have time to clean between flights and would deep clean just once a day. In contrast, a Ryanair spokeswoman’s wrote, “Our aircraft are cleaned during every turnaround.” (She did not immediately respond to additional questions.)


Either way, the cloud of mystery particles on the Qantas flight is somewhat more surprising, given that Australia’s largest airline is not a low-cost carrier. The five-hour flight from Sydney to Perth was the most expensive flight Ross Matthews had ever taken, he wrote when he posted the video on Facebook. It was this video, reposted by Daily Mail, a British tabloid, that prompted some to wonder whether even major carriers have relinquished the cleaning standards established during the pandemic.


Indeed, many have. Early in the pandemic, most airlines committed to extensive sanitation measures. These promises gradually faded away for reasons based on cost, inconvenience and science. By the spring of 2020, research had revealed that the coronavirus is unlikely to spread on surfaces, and masking and ventilation systems gradually became the focus for those trying to avoid getting infected. In June 2020, for example, United Airlines said that it would disinfect cabins by spraying an electrostatically charged mist between each flight. By July of the following year, the airline told The Points Guy, a travel-focused site, that it had switched its approach to applying a different type of disinfectant just once a week.


Early this year JetBlue stopped bringing in professional cleaning crews to clean tray tables between flights, something they started doing in the spring of 2020, according to a flight attendant. Similarly, by August 2020, Southwest said it had stopped disinfecting armrests and seatbelts between flights.


Tidying up chips on the floor, of course, is different than coating surfaces with a chemical that is supposed to kill viruses. Airline policies on this issue vary. Some carriers, such as American Airlines, bring in a cleaning crew between every flight, the airline said. Others, such as JetBlue, only do this when flights are coming from abroad. Otherwise, Jetblue, like Southwest relies on flight crew to do light tidying between domestic flights while they are putting seatbelts back in place, according to several flight attendants. Delta claims that their cleaning teams “conduct frequent and thorough wipe-downs of our aircraft interiors.”


By and large, though, flight attendants are responsible for giving passengers opportunities to throw away their trash, but not for vacuuming or wiping anything down. Those sorts of tasks are supposed to fall on separate cleaning crews, who may not get onto the plane before its next flight. Still, some passengers treat planes like sports stadiums by throwing food on the floor, flight attendants said.


“The entitlement is unreal,” said Nastassja Lewis, a flight attendant and the founder of th|AIR|apy, a nonprofit focused on flight attendants’ mental health. “What is so hard about discarding your trash?” she asked.


As to how freaked out by the Qantas cloud passengers should be, it’s hard to say.


“Based on the video, it is unclear what has been spilt on the seat and when,” an airline representative said in a statement, adding that the seat has since been cleaned. The Australian carrier also said that it puts aircraft through “a deep cleaning on a regular basis,” which includes seat covers and cushions.

The Plane’s a Filthy Mess. Who’s to Blame? – DNyuz

----------


## misskit

*China Airlines opens a new route to Chiang Mai*

China Airlines yesterday announced the good news that it intends to launch flights to Chiang Mai in Thailand. The bad news is that it won’t happen until next year.


The Taiwan-based airline revealed on the day it reopened its borders that flights to the northern city of Chiang Mai take off on January 20 next year.

Flight CI851 from Taiwan Taoyuan International Airport to Chiang Mai will take off at 7.50am on Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday, and touch down in the kingdom at 11am. From Chiang Mai, flight CI852 departs at midday and touches down in Taiwan at 5pm.


The state-owned flag carrier revealed the flight to Chiang Mai is part of the airline’s plan to attract more transit passengers to change flights in Taiwan on their way to Europe and the United States.


The airline also revealed that the number of its flights will increase by 30%, with those to Southeast Asia increased by 50% in the final quarter of this year.


China Airlines added that in early 2023 there will 17 destinations will be available in Southeast Asia, including flights to Cebu in the Philippines, Bali, Australia and New Zealand.


Sydney to Taipei and Melbourne to Taipei will be increased from their current two flights a week to three flights a week in October and November and four times a week in December.

Brisbane to Taipei increases from one flight a week to three starting next month while a flight to Auckland will be added to the Brisbane service every Tuesday, Friday and Sunday between October and December 2022.


The flights to Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane all feature the modern Airbus A350.

China Airlines opens a new route to Chiang Mai | Thaiger

----------


## harrybarracuda

> The bad news is that it won’t happen until next year.


That's not bad news.

----------


## hallelujah

I'm not sure where the best thread to put this is but...

...I have booked with Austrian Airlines via Vienna with another connection in Munich for a short visit home later this year. The connection time in Vienna Airport is 30 minutes!

The airport website says that Vienna is the fastest connecting time in the world at a minimum of 25 minutes, and I have done a short connection with these before (40 mins) from London to Bangkok when they waited for me at the gate in Vienna and drove me to the Bangkok flight (we were actually late coming in from London). 

However, if I have any kind of delay at all, they'd have to put me on the next flight, which would be the next day (they'd naturally be more inclined to wait for me if it was a once a day long haul). 

Anyone any experience in this area? I've read that law EU261 means they are legally bound to accommodate you and feed you if they are late and you miss your flight, but if they arrive on time and you are held up en route to the gate, they can tell you to fuck off because they got you there at the right time, so it was your fault not making your onward flight.

Austrian and Lufthansa though. Surely nothing can go wrong when the Germans are involved?  :Smile:

----------


## harrybarracuda

If you've got luggage you're probably not going home with it.

Did you book this through an agent or the airline, either way look for the small print about the minimum connection time, because if they've put it anywhere in the usual microdot, you're fucked.

----------


## hallelujah

> If you've got luggage you're probably not going home with it.
> 
> Did you book this through an agent or the airline, either way look for the small print about the minimum connection time, because if they've put it anywhere in the usual microdot, you're fucked.


No luggage.

Booked it with the airline. They've told me that if the flight is late, they will book me on an alternative free of charge (and presumably throw in accommodation etc cos it would be next morning).

As I said above, they advertise a minimum connection time of 25 mins at Vienna Airport, but my real concern is that they could hold me responsible if I miss it (basically they appear to be saying that they will have stuck to their part of the deal if the first flight arrives on time).

Of course, if I miss it, I might just fuck off anyway and have a few days in Vienna, so it wouldn't be the end of the world.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Boeing fined $200m for misleading investors on 737 MAX safety

Boeing fined $200m for misleading investors on 737 MAX safety

----------


## harrybarracuda

Not quite a major incident but it is the currant bun  :Smile: 




> EMERGENCY services rushed onto the tarmac at Heathrow Airport last night after two planes crashed into each other.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The incident took place at 8pm at the London hub which handles more than 80 million international passengers annually.
> 
> t's believed that a Korean 777 clipped an Icelandair 767 while taxiing.
> 
> ...

----------


## harrybarracuda

Qantas embarrassing themselves again. 

Schoolboy unable to board flight to see dad despite airline error

FTI:




> Can a teenager fly alone on Emirates?
> 
> Children over 12 can travel alone, and they fly on an adult fare. If you'd like to use our Unaccompanied Minors service for children aged 12 to 15, the fee is USD 50 for each leg of the journey.

----------


## helge

> the fee is USD 50 for each leg


Take that, RyanAir !

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Take that, RyanAir !


What does that have to do with Ryanair?

----------


## harrybarracuda

Way to go Jetstar!




> An Australian passenger on a Jetstar flight to Thailand has been left humiliated after she was forced to crawl off the plane, claiming staff wouldn't get her a wheelchair unless she paid extra.
> 
> Natalie Curtis, from Queensland, said she was offered a special wheelchair that fits in plane aisles when boarding her flight from Singapore to Bangkok.
> 
> But when Ms Curtis landed in Bangkok and required the same service, she claims she was told she would need to pay if she wanted to be wheeled off the plane. 
> 
> Ms Curtis was with her friend Natasha Elford, who said she was unable to carry her as she had an injured knee, with footage showing her having to crawl her way off the plane.
> 
> 'I didn't really comprehend it (being charged for the wheelchair) and I was like, 'No, I'm not paying to be able to get off this plane',' Ms Curtis told Sunrise on Monday.
> ...

----------


## docmartin

When’s pay-per-poo n pee starting Mr Joyce you smarmy twit ?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> When’s pay-per-poo n pee starting Mr Joyce you smarmy twit ?


I'm going to stick my neck out and guess that's the Jetstar boss?

 :Smile:

----------


## docmartin

Joyce is boss of Qaintarse which owns Jetstar. I’ve written to the goose several times over several Qantas issues but I may as well have talked to the hand.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Joyce is boss of Qaintarse which owns Jetstar. I’ve written to the goose several times over several Qantas issues but I may as well have talked to the hand.


I would suggest you progress onto indignant social media posts on their Facetubegram page.

----------


## docmartin

The last one was more a matter of asking that they comply with their legal obligations regarding Section 100 of the Competition and Consumer Act of 2010 in regard to the issuing of tax invoices for services provided. 
Virgin got it and complied but Alans a bit dim on occasion and it took a bit of convincing but he got there eventually. CEOs need a bit of guidance sometimes.

----------


## david44

Big claim

*Carlyle seeks $700mn over insurers’ failure to pay for Russian jet seizures*By Shehnaz AliNovember 1, 2022Updated:November 1, 2022No Comments3 Mins Read

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Carlyle Aviation Partners, one of many world’s largest plane leasing operators, is searching for $700mn from greater than 30 insurers and reinsurers after they did not pay out over jet seizures by Russian airways.


The motion, filed in Florida late on Monday, features a declare that the insurers, which embrace the US’s AIG, Axis and Chubb, have acted in unhealthy religion on insurance policies masking 23 plane following the battle in Ukraine.


That declare might permit a jury to award punitive damages to Carlyle past the $700mn that an individual accustomed to the case mentioned the corporate was searching for.
Carlyle Aviation Partners, a part of the Carlyle Group, the funding firm, is one in all many lessors struggling to recuperate plane leased to Russian airways earlier than Russia’s assault on Ukraine on February 24.



Russian carriers, performing on official directions, have taken management of about 500 plane value about $10bn leased from abroad firms. They have ignored lessors’ calls for to return the aircrafts.
The case was introduced by Carlyle Aviation’s UK and US arms, which the authorized declare described as “the Carlyle plaintiffs”. It alleged the insurers had dedicated 9 separate breaches of contract.


“In blatant breach of their contractual obligations, and months after the Carlyle plaintiffs first notified defendants of their covered losses, defendants have failed to provide coverage for these losses,” the authorized motion mentioned.

Although the motion mentioned the insurers had given no motive for his or her failure to pay out, insurers in different circumstances have insisted the plane, that are sometimes nonetheless being utilized in Russia, haven’t been misplaced.
There have additionally been questions in different circumstances about whether or not the claims needs to be made beneath the insured firms’ war-risk cowl or different insurance policies.


Carlyle’s submitting mentioned the insurers had “violated their good faith duties” by failing to guage the corporate’s claims in a well timed or critical method.
“Defendants have not timely provided an assessment or determination as to these claims despite the claims having been presented in March 2022, and despite full particulars of the claims having been provided months before the filing of this complaint,” the papers mentioned.

The declare alleged the insurers had additionally systematically denied or delayed evaluation of insurance coverage claims introduced by different claimants in an analogous scenario to Carlyle.


The Carlyle case entails 16 Boeing and 7 Airbus plane leased to 12 completely different airways, in accordance with the courtroom submitting. The single largest group of plane is 5 Boeing plane leased to Utair, a regional airline primarily based in western Siberia.
Most of the plane are in Russia, though one Boeing plane operated by Azur Airlines has been detained in Egypt.
The Egyptian authorities have been uncooperative, in accordance with the authorized papers, though they mentioned the Egyptians had not too long ago indicated they may launch the plane if Carlyle paid airport storage charges.


The case names 35 insurers and reinsurers as defendants, together with one consortium of war-risk insurers working within the Lloyd’s of London insurance coverage market and 19 syndicates of Lloyd’s underwriters.
None of the insurers concerned was prepared to remark.


Carlyle Aviation Partners mentioned it was bringing the lawsuit as a result of it had “exhausted all avenues” for recovering the plane and had not been compensated as required by its insurance coverage coverage.


“We have complied with all obligations under the insurance policy, designed precisely for this type of risk in this situation,” the corporate mentioned




https://www.newsncr.com/business/carlyle-seeks-700mn-over-insurers-failure-to-pay-for-russian-jet-seizures/

----------


## baldrick

> Joyce is boss of Qaintarse which owns Jetstar.


lots of people complaining that crapstar has cancelled their flights they booked and paid for earlier and offered only flight credit or flight on other days with a few connections

then they look online and see crapstar is still selling seats on their original flight , but for more money





> the Carlyle Group


hahaha  - I think that is the bush and cheany investment vehicle

----------


## david44

> I think that is the bush and cheany investment vehicle


Correctomundo, nobody is going to slip you wooden dollars at Thermae in yer change :smiley laughing:

----------


## harrybarracuda

A plane taking off at an airport in Peru caught on fire after it collided with a moving fire truck on the runway.

A LATAM Airlines jet, which was carrying 102 passengers and six crew members, struck a moving fire truck at Lima's international airport on Friday afternoon.

Authorities said the plane's passengers and crew were all safe, but two firefighters in the truck were killed.

Footage on social media showed huge black plumes of smoke near the back of the plane which was partially on fire.

It remains unclear why the fire truck entered the runway while the plane was taking off and the prosecutors' office said
it was investigating the incident as potential manslaughter.

Both the plane and the fire truck were in motion when they collided.

Lima Airport Partners, the company that operates Jorge Chavez airport, said operations at the facility had been suspended and that the airport will remain closed until at least 1pm local time on Saturday.

https://twitter.com/RadioNacionalFM/...rport-12750695

https://news.sky.com/story/plane-catches-fire-after-colliding-with-fire-truck-on-runway-at-peru-airport-12750695

----------


## harrybarracuda

I'm surprised they didn't see a large jet bearing down on them before entering the runway.

Added: _Regardless_ of whether or not they had been cleared.


https://twitter.com/fchullen/status/1593712813138124802?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5  Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1593712813138124802%7Ctwgr%  5E22edecdb5e4b8d8cb7af29ea7cbca355cce3941f%7Ctwcon  %5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Facci  dents-close-calls%2F649884-latam-a320-ground-collision-spjc.html

----------


## harrybarracuda

https://twitter.com/Mario_Moray/stat...sion-spjc.html

----------


## Troy

^^ Horrible accident, looks like the fire truck saw the plane at the last minute and tried to get out of the way. Apparently, it was a training exercise and Fire crews did not have clearance to enter runway.

----------


## harrybarracuda

> ^^ Horrible accident, looks like the fire truck saw the plane at the last minute and tried to get out of the way. Apparently, it was a training exercise and Fire crews did not have clearance to enter runway.


But there is also apparently confusing controller traffic which may have led them to believe they did.

----------


## harrybarracuda

Some titbits that may be better posted in proximity to each other for best effect:




> Regulators are pushing the UN's International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) to examine ways of making single pilot operations the eventual norm in commercial flights.
> 
> In a working paper [PDF] filed with the aviation standards body, the European Union Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) requested on behalf of member states that the "necessary enablers" be created "for a safe and globally harmonized introduction of commercial air transport (CAT) operations of large aeroplanes with optimised crew/single-pilot operations while ensuring an equivalent or higher level of safety compared to that achieved in current operations."
> 
> Aviation regulators push for single pilot flights • The Register


and:




> An Envoy Air pilot passed out while taking off from Chicago O’Hare International Airport and was later pronounced dead, officials said on Tuesday. The co-pilot took control of the plane and managed to land safely.
> 
> The incident involved Envoy Air Flight 3556, an Embraer E175 aircraft, which was scheduled to fly to Columbus, Ohio on Saturday night. The flight was flown for American Eagle, which – like Envoy Air – is part of American Airlines.
> 
> Pilot dies while plane takes off from Chicago - BNO News

----------


## Switch

^So much for enhanced safety?

----------


## misskit

*At least 36 people injured, some seriously, after ‘severe turbulence’ on Hawaiian Airlines flight*

 — 
At least 36 people on a Hawaiian Airlines flight were injured, with 20 taken to emergency rooms, after their plane encountered “severe turbulence” on a flight from Phoenix to Honolulu on Sunday, authorities said.


Eleven patients were in serious condition, Honolulu Emergency Medical Services said in a statement. Among those transported to the hospital was a 14-month-old child.


The patients’ injuries included a serious head injury, lacerations, bruising and loss of consciousness, Honolulu EMS said.


Hawaiian Airlines is “supporting all affected passengers & employees” and monitoring the situation, the company said.


“Medical care was provided to several guests & crewmembers at the airport for minor injuries while some were swiftly transported to local hospitals for further care,” Hawaiian Airlines tweeted.


The turbulence occurred 30 minutes before the plane landed in Honolulu.

The EMS and the American Medical Response responded to a “mass casualty emergency” at Daniel K. Inouye International Airport just after 11 a.m. Sunday, according to the statement.


Hawaiian Airlines Flight 35, an Airbus 330, reported the turbulence around 10:35 a.m. Hawaii Standard Time, according to the US Federal Aviation Administration.


The FAA said it is investigating the incident.

At least 36 people injured, some seriously, after 'severe turbulence' on Hawaiian Airlines flight | CNN

----------


## harrybarracuda

If you're Blighty bound...

Thousands of flights could be delayed as Border Force workers launch strike action | UK News | Sky News

----------


## david44

Could be worse a free stopover in Baku due to Qantas grounding.

Qantas plane en route to London makes emergency landing in Azerbaijan | Qantas | The Guardian

----------


## david44

Not sure if this is right place or Takeovers slots

Latest Soyuz capsule leak prompts Russians to plan possible rescue of space station crew | Space | The Guardian

Lost in Space springs to mind

----------


## Takeovers

> Not sure if this is right place or Takeovers slots


I have covered it in the SpaceNews thread. But this is important enough to be covered here as well, IMO.

From the linked article.




> “The temperature [on the Soyuz MS-22 spacecraft] has stabilised and has not exceeded 30C lately. Today, we have no fears, primarily about the life of the crew on the ISS,” he said. “The temperature has stabilised after we brought in air ducts there from the Russian segment and are maintaining the temperature regime by ventilators.”


So for the time being the temperature in the pressurized volume is within limits due to cooler air blown in from the ISS. But that would stop once the Soyuz capsule is disconnected from the ISS for Earth return, so it will get hotter even before the very hot reentry process. 

Another issue is the temperature in the service module. That's not affected by cool air from the ISS. That temperature value was never mentioned. So it may be outside safe limits already. If the Russians are even considering sending another Soyuz that seems likely.


A video about the incident, with clips showing the coolant liquid spraying out.

----------


## Switch

^Way above the pay grade for my punkah wallah.

----------


## malmomike77

Anyone flying back to the UK for at least the next 2-3 weeks is going to have fun, the Border Farce are on strike

----------


## Takeovers

Some context for the ISS and Soyuz situation.

Presently there are 7 people on board of the ISS. As a strict safety rule there has to be always seats for the ride down to Earth for all of them. That is to cover them all in case of an emergency that requires the ISS to be abandoned. Which is given with 4 seats on board of a SpaceX Dragon and 3 seats on board of a Roskosmos Soyuz. Now it is unclear if the Soyuz can take people down to Earth safely.

Roskosmos can probably send an empty replacement Soyuz in February. Until then the safety requirement of a seat for everyone is not met. Not a huge risk. So far a situation requiring evacuation of the ISS has not happened. Except occasionally with a risk of a meteorite or debris hit they evacuated into their capsules and returned to the ISS when the danger has passed.

There is also a contractual requirement that there always has to be at least 1 astronaut and 1 cosmonaut on board. Each required to control and run their side of the ISS. This requirement is also why there is going to be a seat swap. On each US capsule 1 cosmonaut. On each russian capsule an astronaut. Due to the swap there would always be staff from both sides on the ISS, even if one capsule has to leave ahead of schedule. That swap happened with the latest flight of a Dragon. It had russian Anna Kikina on board.

----------


## misskit

*THAI Claims Current Revenue Approaches Pre-Covid Levels*

BANGKOK (NNT) - Following the tourism industry’s recovery, Thai Airways International (THAI) has reported that its monthly income is almost back to pre-pandemic levels.


Suvadhana Sibunruang, the airline’s interim CEO, stated that THAI had so far resumed around 70% of its international flights with a cabin factor (passenger load factor) of 85%.


Suvadhana reported that the better load factors contribute to the airline’s current monthly income of around 12 billion baht, down from 15 billion baht before the pandemic.


The THAI acting CEO highlighted that the airline has returned to profitability since May this year by decreasing costs and expenses, obtaining additional revenue sources, and shrinking its fleet from 103 to 61 aircraft following its bankruptcy filing in 2020.


In 2021, THAI declared a debt of approximately 400 billion baht. However, creditors accepted a revised rehabilitation plan in September this year due to a faster-than-anticipated recovery of the country’s tourism industry. The amended rehabilitation plan permits THAI to borrow only 25 billion baht by 2024, as opposed to 50 billion baht under the original plan.


Suvadhana added that THAI is also on track to resume trading on the stock market in 2025 or sooner, following the return to profitability.

THAI Claims Current Revenue Approaches Pre-Covid Levels

----------


## OhOh

23 Dec, 2022 07:38  HomeRussia & FSU


*Soyuz coolant leak may force rescue mission to ISS*

                     Roscosmos and NASA continue to investigate a tiny hole in the Russian spacecraft
_
"__A coolant leak at the Soyuz MS-22 spacecraft could lead to Russia  sending an empty capsule to the International Space Station (ISS) to  bring the stranded Russian and US crewmembers back to Earth, Roscosmos  space agency has said.

__Sergey Krikalev, the head of human  spaceflight programs at Roscosmos, said during a video-conference on  Thursday that no final decision on the matter has been made._
_Experts from the Russian and the US space agencies have worked together as they always have to investigate the leak, which occurred on the Soyuz last week, Joel Montalbano, NASA ISS program manager, said. The teams are going back and forth. Were constantly exchanging data.
_
_It  was planned that the spacecraft would be used by Russian cosmonauts  Dmitry Petelin and Sergey Prokopyev, as well as NASA astronaut Frank  Rubio, to return from orbit. The trio have been at the station since  September.
_
_The hole, a few millimeters across, affected a coolant  pipe in the Soyuz MS-22, according to a probe by Roscosmos and NASA. The  liquid released as a result of the leak has not contaminated the  exterior surfaces of the ISS, such as solar panels or windows.
_
_Thermal analysis is underway to determine whether the Soyuz MS-22 is fit to bring the crew home or or if we need to send a rescue vehicle to the station in the future, Krikalev said.
_
_In  the latter case, a Soyuz MS-23 would have to fly to the ISS without a  crew to pick up Petelin, Prokopyev and Rubio, with the Soyuz MS-22  returning to Earth empty, he explained.
_
_A Soyuz MS-23 is scheduled  for launch in March 2023, but its departure could be moved forward to  February if the situation demands, the Roscosmos representative assured.  If this happens, future crew rotation missions to the ISS would have to  be readjusted, Krikalev added.
_
_The exact reason for  the spacecraft leak has not so far been established, but both sides have  ruled out any suggestion of it being caused by the Geminid meteor  shower, which occurs annually.
_
_Both the trajectory team in Houston and the trajectory team in Moscow confirmed it was not from the meteor showers, Montalbano said.
_
_It  is yet to be confirmed if the hole in the Soyuz MS-22 was caused by  naturally occurring micrometeoroids, man-made debris in orbit or some  other type of failure, he added."
_
Soyuz coolant leak may force rescue mission to ISS  RT Russia & Former Soviet Union

----------


## malmomike77

Seems we could be better off without Sausages Jobsworth Civil Servants  :Smile: 

Airports running ‘better than usual’ in ‘embarrassing’ blow to Border Force strikes

Passengers have said they wish the Army could man the borders permanently after airports ran smoothly on Friday in an “embarrassing” blow to striking Border Force workers.


The Government had been braced for disruption as a week-long strike by 1,000 passport staff at six airports began.


Families with young children, who cannot use electronic gates, were expected to bear the brunt of delays at border control, but there was no widespread disruption as travellers arrived home.


Military personnel and civil servants filled in for Border Force at major airports, including Gatwick and Heathrow, with passengers who had expected “carnage” suggesting border checks were quicker than normal.


Oliver Cohen, 31, from London, whose flight from Antigua to Heathrow landed at 9am, said the “military precision” of passport control was “embarrassing” for striking Border Force officers.


“It was probably the best experience I’ve had – no more than five minutes,” he told The Telegraph. “The e-gates were all open and the Army on all the border control desks were rapidly getting people through – far better than usual, to be honest.


“I was expecting huge delays and have engagement celebrations this afternoon, so it was a big relief. You can see when it’s run by the Army it’s on a different level of efficiency, they’re working at pace.


“To a large degree I think it makes the strike somewhat irrelevant and maybe even embarrassing for border control. Can we have the Army in charge every day, please?”


Trevor Boswell, who arrived into Heathrow Terminal Four from Jeddah, said he had “flown many times” into the airport but the soldiers “showed how it could and should be done”.


“I was very impressed with the number of servicemen manning both the counters and guiding passengers – they handled me with professionalism and in a calm manner, and within a few short minutes I was through,” he told The Telegraph.


“In comparison, I would say that 80 per cent of the time, you are processed and receive a cold and rude reception by the usual Border Force staff. Do I think this puts the position of the striking force under scrutiny? Yes, and rightly so.”


Travellers were warned to prepare for disruption at Heathrow, Birmingham, Cardiff, Gatwick, Glasgow and Manchester airports, and the port of Newhaven in East Sussex, with members of the Public and Commercial Services Union striking every day other than Tuesday until the end of the year.


As the union warned that the strikes could go on for months, the Ministry of Defence said members of the Armed Forces would get a £20 bonus for every day they spend training or deployed during the festive period.


In Manchester, Paul Simon, 42, from Wales, arrived at 11:35am and said he was out on the M56 just half an hour later thanks to the Royal Navy’s efficiency after the e-gates did not work.


“The Navy was at the available gates and asked the normal questions,” he said. “They scanned my passport and I was on my way.”


“I fully support strikes and I believe people deserve a decent wage, but after coming back from Dubai, where even trains are driverless, I also believe some services need to be modernised  and maybe that sometimes means jobs have to go.”


Sneha Mistri, a choreographer, said there were “no delays at all” arriving at Birmingham from Madrid, adding: “It was totally clear at the gates on arrival, I didn’t notice any disruption. It seemed efficient – I’ve had delays at Birmingham before, but today was all clear.”


Data compiled by Cirium, an aviation data company, shows that 1,290 flights will arrive at airports affected by the strike on Friday, equating to over 250,000 seats. A further 1,009 flights, carrying up to 200,000 passengers, will arrive on Christmas Eve.


The airports facing strike action are set to process around 60 per cent of all arrivals in the UK by air over the two days.


Aviation sources also said queues were moving faster than they could have hoped. One said: “They are moving smoothly. Most people are making connections easily, which shows little disruption. Border Force will know whether it’s operating quicker, but maybe they won't want to admit that.”


Heathrow said  immigration halls were “free flowing” while Gatwick said it was not experiencing any delays.


The Home Office said it had “robust plans in place to minimise any delays” but said  “passengers should be prepared for disruption and take action to plan ahead”.


A spokesman said: “Those intending to travel into the UK over strike days should keep up to date with the latest advice from operators to check how the strike action will affect their journey.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/12/23/airports-running-better-usual-embarrassing-blow-border-force/

----------


## Neverna

Fingers  crossed the army will be at work at the airport for your return home to Blighty, Mike!

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Some context for the ISS and Soyuz situation.


Sorry, why is this in the airline thread?

----------


## harrybarracuda

> Anyone flying back to the UK for at least the next 2-3 weeks is going to have fun, the Border Farce are on strike


Post #3802 dear boy.

It seems they are waving a lot of people through.

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## Takeovers

> Sorry, why is this in the airline thread?


That way more people see it than just  the small space fan group. It is a major development.

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## harrybarracuda

This isn't good. Hopefully the response will not be disproportionate.




> On Saturday, JetBlue flight B6 662 was evacuated onto the apron at New York's JFK Terminal 5 using emergency slides. The flight from Bridgetown was preparing to disembark when passengers reported smoking from a laptop, which quickly began filling in the cabin. Five were minorly injured by the use of the slides, with over 167 onboard.
> 
> JetBlue flight B6 662 departed Bridgetown, Barbados, at 16:47 local time, about 1 hour and 40 minutes following its scheduled time. Things went smoothly from there, with the aircraft landing at New York JFK Airport at 20:33 local time, 4 hours and 46 minutes later. However, issues first arose as the plane approached Terminal 5.
> 
> According to CBS2, the crew reported a laptop emitting smoke in the cabin, which passengers say quickly started filling through the cabin. When one traveler yelled fire, passengers began panicking, and the Captain reportedly jumped into action to put out the flames. One of those seated in the first row described the pilot's actions as heroic, saying:
> 
> _"The captain came flying out of the cabin. He grabbed a fire extinguisher and was doing like an O. J. Simpson over the seats and passengers. The guy was amazing, and put the fire out...It was a complete zoo."_
> 
> Soon after, the cabin crew evacuated the aircraft using the emergency slides, with all 167 passengers reaching the tarmac, according to the FDNY. There were four slide-related injuries, but all have been described as minor. Images show the jetbridge already attached to the aircraft, meaning passengers would have used the remaining slides to exit.
> ...

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## misskit

The world just doesn’t have enough planes as travel roars back

WASHINGTON - As travel springs back and even China dismantles the last remaining Covid-19 curbs, one stark truth is beginning to emerge – the world is running desperately short of planes.


With carriers from United Airlines Holdings Inc to Air India Ltd placing, or looking to place, jet orders that number in the hundreds, Boeing Co and Airbus SE are crowing variously about blockbuster deals.


But supply chain constraints mean those planes won’t be delivered until possibly years down the track – Jefferies LLC estimates there’s an order backlog of 12,720 aircraft currently.

All that means the sky-high airfares that people have complained bitterly about over the past few months are here to stay, and things could get worse before they get better.


“People got used to lower fares during the pandemic and China’s reopening will make it worse,” Mr Ajay Awtaney, the founder of frequent flier website LiveFromALounge.com, said. “It’s not just a shortage of planes but also other factors like oil prices.”


While one cashed-up airline in a particular jurisdiction may have the financial wherewithal to bring prices down, that would likely cause other carriers to stumble, “leading to even higher fares in the long run,” Mr Awtaney said.

Boeing and Airbus, the planemaking giants that largely enjoy a duopoly supplying passenger jets, are sold out for their most popular single-aisle models through until at least 2029.


Compounding the demand from airlines as people once again take to the skies with a vengeance and carriers look to refresh ageing fleets are supply chain challenges – everything from getting the necessary components to labour shortages.


Airbus earlier this month dropped its delivery goal of 700 jetliners this year citing supply chain issues and has previously warned that a jump in energy costs will weigh particularly hard on smaller, power intensive producers, such as those making castings and forgings.


According to the founder of Air Lease Corp and a legendary name in aviation, Mr Steve Udvar-Hazy, every jet delivered to one of the world’s largest lessors over the past two years has been late.

“We haven’t gotten one airplane on time, whether it’s a 737 Max or a 787 or an A330, A350,” he said. “And the worst has been the A321neo. We’ve had delays of as much as six or seven months, comparing contract delivery month to actual delivery. It’s a combination of supply chain issues, ramping up too quickly and shortage of labour. Production workers can’t work from home. So it’s been a real problem.”


The thousands of planes that carriers stored in deserts around the world, unsure of when demand would return as travel collapsed in the wake of Covid-19 and countries shut borders, are also contributing to the shortage.


Hundreds haven’t been brought back into fleets, either because they now need heavy-duty maintenance after so long not being used or because airlines plan on phasing them out and haven’t bothered slotting them into their schedules again.


The end result for the flying public is eye-watering fares, which could rise even further as business travel returns and more people are willing to treat themselves as they holiday abroad for the first time in years.

It could also mean flying in older planes.


“As a last resort, we can see airlines extending ownership cycles,” said Mr Sunny Xi, a Singapore-based principal at consultancy Oliver Wyman.


Airlines in Asia historically plan fleets around 12-year cycles, which is lower than in most other regions. But during the restructurings that carriers have gone through over the past few years, “several airlines have extended existing fleets and could do so again in the future,” he said.


For Boeing and Airbus, delivering the planes they’ve sold on time is now problem number one.


Airbus is already seeing airlines reluctant to place new orders for jets, considering it has a backlog of more than 6,100 planes for the A320neo family that would take eight years to fill. While it’s long touted its plan to ramp up production to as many as 75 A320 jets a month, it’s now pushed back that goal to the middle of the decade.


Investors in Boeing, which has announced around 850 gross orders this year, including the mid-December United Airlines deal, are meanwhile concerned on the slow progress the US planemaker has made in resolving its supply chain snarls and speeding work in its factories, RBC analyst Ken Herbert said.


The one bright spot? Employees working in the sector probably won’t be laid-off any time soon.


“The order backlogs are big enough that a recession wouldn’t really matter right now,” said Mr George Ferguson, an analyst with Bloomberg Intelligence. Manufacturers and airlines will “hold on to people even if there are small hiccups.” 

The world just doesn’t have enough planes as travel roars back | The Straits Times

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## harrybarracuda

> That way more people see it than just  the small space fan group. It is a major development.


It doesn't matter. Open a new thread if you think it's that important.

FFS.

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## harrybarracuda

THE Thai Airline Association said today (Dec. 26) that seven airlines are going to cut airfares by up to 20% from January 2023 after the government reduced the excise tax on jet fuel to only 20 satang per litre to stimulate tourism, TV Channel 7 said.
Mr. Puttipong Prasarttong-Osoth, president of this association, said excise tax on jet fuel was cut to 20 satang per litre from 4.726 baht for six months starting January.
All seven airlines will be jointly organising a special promotion with all air fares to be gradually reduced by up to 20% depending on how each airline arranges it.
“The seven airlines will gradually organise this promotion with a maximum discount of 20% from the beginning of January 2023 onwards and I believe that this will help stimulate travel and tourism in all regions,” he said.
The seven airlines participating in this promotion are Bangkok Airways, Thai AirAsia, Thai AirAsia X, Thai Smile, Nok Air, Thai Lion Air and Thai VietJet.
Meanwhile Mr. Nitinai Sirismatthakarn, president of Airport Authority of Thailand (AOT), forecast that air traffic volume during Dec. 29, 2022 – Jan. 4, 2023 at all its six airports will be around two million passengers, an an increase of 171.28% over last New Year (Dec. 29, 2021- Jan. 4, 2022).
Of this total around one million will likely be international passengers, an increase of 832.51%, and around one million domestic passengers, an increase of 57.05%.
There will be around 12,190 flights, an increase of 87.01%, divided into approximately 5,340 international flights, up 260.53%, and around 6,850 domestic flights, up 35.98%.
With all six AOT airports, Suvarnabhumi, Don Mueang, Chiang Mai, Chiang Rai’s Mae Fah Luang, Phuket and Hat Yai, being crowded passengers are requested to come to the airport two to three hours in advance so as to not miss their flight.

7 airlines to slash airfares by up to 20% from Jan. 2023 - Thai Newsroom

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## Troy

> This isn't good. Hopefully the response will not be disproportionate.


Happened just a couple of days later, Dec 27,  this time on a scheduled Lufthansa flight...



> *Lufthansa flight lands at Chicago O'Hare after laptop fire
> *
> 
> Lufthansa  says a flight from Los Angeles to Frankfurt, Germany, made an  unscheduled landing at Chicago’s O’Hare International Airport after a  passenger’s laptop caught fire 
> 
> CHICAGO -- A  Lufthansa flight from Los Angeles to Frankfurt, Germany, made an  unscheduled landing at Chicago's O’Hare International Airport after a  passenger's laptop caught fire, the airline said.
> Monday  night's landing at O'Hare was a precautionary step after an overheated  laptop caused a small fire in the passenger cabin, the airline said.
> 
> The fire was out by the time the plane made a safe landing,         WLS-TV reported.
> ...


Lufthansa flight lands at Chicago O'''Hare after laptop fire - ABC News





I personally don't bother using my laptop or mobile  when flying, preferring to read a book or use the in-flight entertainment system.

 I wonder what is causing this? Cheap laptop batteries? Over voltage/current charging? Hope it won't lead to a ban on powering up devices when flying.

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## harrybarracuda

Cheap/Old/Fake batteries?

And yes, there may be consequences.

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## Backspin

IATA cites importance of post-war return to Russian airspace for all airlines | News | Flight Global

A post-war reopening of Russian airspace is an important target for the airline industry, given the congestion and competition concerns created by the current situation, in the view of IATA director general Willie Walsh.


Speaking during a media briefing on 6 December, Walsh explained that congestion over Europe is being exacerbated by airspace restrictions over Belarus, Russia and Ukraine, creating a “major issue” in the region.


“If you look at the closure of Ukrainian airspace, Russian airspace and other parts of the world, the amount of traffic that’s flowing through Europe has increased over certain routes and that’s not sustainable,” he says.

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## Backspin

*The Largest Airline Meltdown in Aviation History*

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## harrybarracuda

Ouch, what a way to go.




> An airport worker has died after being "ingested" into a plane engine in the US state of Alabama.
> The accident happened about 3pm on Saturday at Montgomery Regional Airport after American Airlines Flight 3408 had arrived from Dallas.
> 
> The US National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) said the ground crew worker was "ingested into the engine" of an aircraft while it was parked at the gate, CBS News reported.
> 
> The worker - who was an employee of Piedmont Airlines, a regional subsidiary of American Airlines - has not yet been named.
> The Federal Aviation Administration and NTSB are investigating the incident.
> 
> Airport worker dies after being 'ingested' into plane engine in Alabama | World News | Sky News

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## Troy

^ There was a report on youtube saying the worker was a married woman with 3 kids...pretty tragic for NY eve.

Apparently engine running due to inop apu and she crossed directly in front instead of going long way round. May not have been told about inop apu.

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## S Landreth

Hopefully other major airlines will follow suit


Delta Air Lines to offer free WiFi on domestic flights starting in February

Delta Air Lines and T-Mobile will begin offering free WiFi on all flights beginning in February, the two companies announced Thursday.

*Why it matters:* Delta joins JetBlue as the only major U.S. airline to offer free wireless internet connectivity to all passengers.

*Delta adds free WiFi*

*Details:* Delta will begin rolling out the Wifi on domestic flights on Feb. 1. More than 700 planes in its fleet will offer the perk by the end of 2023, the company said in a statement.


International and regional routes will add Wifi by the end of 2024, per the statement.Travelers can access the WiFi by logging into their Delta SkyMiles frequent flyer account "while on the ground or on the plane," the companies said.

*What they're saying:* The ability to stay connected while seeing the world is simply foundational," Delta CEO Ed Bastian said in the statement.


Bastian called Deltas partnership with T-Mobile an "exciting step forward" in offering an "onboard experience thats as comfortable and personalized as sitting in your own living room."

*Flashback:* The Wall Street Journal reported in December that Delta was planning to roll out free wireless internet as early as 2023. Delta told WSJ it was exploring various offerings to select customers on select routes.

*How to access free Delta WiFi*

Travelers can access the WiFi by logging into their Delta SkyMiles frequent flyer account "while on the ground or on the plane," the companies said. Those without a SkyMiles account can sign up for free.


The service will be available on "smartphones, tablets and laptops," T-Mobile said.

*Context:* Most airlines charge for WiFi.


United Airlines, for example, charges $8 for members who have frequent flyer programs and $10 for normal flyers. Southwest Airlines also charges $8.JetBlue is the only other airline with free WiFi.But Hawaiian Airlines is planning to offer free Wifi through SpaceXs Starlink in 2023 and American Airlines has also been testing offering free WiFi after watching ads, WSJ reports.

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## Backspin

> ^ There was a report on youtube saying the worker was a married woman with 3 kids...pretty tragic for NY eve.
> 
> Apparently engine running due to inop apu and she crossed directly in front instead of going long way round. May not have been told about inop apu.


So they were running a main engine for auxiliary power ?

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## Troy

^ Each engine runs a generator, without the APU, one engine stays running until ground power is attached and then it is shut down. Normally it's no problem, lights are flashing so stay clear.

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## harrybarracuda

Remember when two Boeing flying coffins/MAX's crashed, and they ended up having to admit they'd fucked up?

Well the NTSB are trying to blame it on bird strikes or something.

Wankers.




> The NTSB points out that bird strikes could also have played a role. Incidents involving birds damaging planes at Addis Ababa airport are frequent.


Ethiopia Releases Final Boeing 737 MAX Accident Report, U.S. Authorities Question Report – AirlineGeeks.com

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## S Landreth

All US flights grounded due to major FAA 'system failure

The FAA - The FAA is working to restore its Notice to Air Missions System. We are performing final validation checks and reloading the system now.

Operations across the National Airspace System are affected.

We will provide frequent updates as we make progress. https://twitter.com/FAANews/status/1613135903010033665

edit: FAA - no outbound flights till at least 9:00am

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## david44

Cyber attack or just routine flop?

Multiple sources have reported a computer outage with the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) which has resulted in the grounding of many flights by airlines for safety reasons.
American Airlines and United have both confirmed to passengers waiting for flights that there is a nationwide system outage.
The FAAs Air Traffic Control System Command Centre (ATCSCC) website says that a NOTAMS outage continues. Technicians are working to restore it but there is no current estimated time of restoration.
The NOTAM (Notice to Air Missions in the US) system is used to report potential hazards and important information to flight crews about airports and the state of flying.
According to the ATCSCC advisory, no new NOTAMS or amendments have been processed since 20:28 UTC yesterday,
The FAA has not formally grounded flights but airlines are choosing to do so as their flight crews do not have up-to-date information for their flight as a result of the outage. The system is understood to be partially restored.
In its latest update, the FAA said: The FAA is still working to fully restore the Notice to Air Missions system following an outage. While some functions are beginning to come back on line, National Airspace System operations remain limited.

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## Norton

> Cyber attack or just routine flop?


Routine flop. FAA knew of this problem and is making sure the system is working properly. According to CNN.

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## harrybarracuda

Maybe it affected the Indians. Hard to think how you can undercount your passengers by 50....




> India's aviation regulator has pulled up an airline for leaving behind passengers on the tarmac in the southern Indian state of Karnataka.
> 
> A flight by Go First, previously known as Go Air, took off from the airport in Bengaluru city, leaving more than 50 passengers forgotten in a bus.
> 
> Reports said the travellers had checked in their baggage and had boarding passes in hand.
> 
> The airline said it was investigating the incident.
> 
> Go First apologised to passengers who complained on Twitter but has yet to explain what caused the confusion.
> ...

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## david44

> A flight by Go First, previously known as Go Air, took off from the airport in Bengaluru city, leaving more than 50 passengers forgotten in a bus.


To be rebranded Go Last

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## harrybarracuda

> To be rebranded Go Last


Or perhaps Not Go At All.

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## S Landreth

> All US flights grounded due to major FAA 'system failure


Update.

FAA NOTAMS Statement
Wednesday, January 11, 2023
FAA STATEMENT 6:30 pm EST

The FAA is continuing a thorough review to determine the root cause of the Notice to Air Missions (NOTAM) system outage. Our preliminary work has traced the outage to a damaged database file. At this time, there is no evidence of a cyber attack. The FAA is working diligently to further pinpoint the causes of this issue and take all needed steps to prevent this kind of disruption from happening again.

FAA STATEMENT 8:50 am EST

Normal air traffic operations are resuming gradually across the United States following an overnight outage to the FAA’s Notice to Air Missions (NOTAM) system that provides safety information to flight crews. The ground stop has been lifted.

The agency continues to look into the cause of the initial problem.

https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/faa-notams-statement

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## Troy

> Notice to Air Missions (NOTAM)


It was Notice to Airmen for 75 years or so...

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## harrybarracuda

> *Pokhara airport: At least 40 killed in plane crash in central Nepal
> *
> A plane with 72 people on board has crashed near an airport in central Nepal and at least 40 bodies have been recovered, officials say.
> 
> The Yeti Airlines flight from Kathmandu to the tourist town of Pokhara crashed on landing, catching fire.
> 
> Videos posted on social media show an aircraft flying low over a populated area before spinning sharply.
> 
> There were 68 passengers on board, including at least 15 foreign nationals, and four crew members.
> ...


ATR 72. Video in the link below. Looks like it just ran out of lift.

----------


## harrybarracuda



----------


## harrybarracuda

Now I remember why it looked so familiar:

TransAirways 235. That was a flameout and incorrect engine shutdown.

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## Backspin

The plane entered an aerodynamic stall. A flamed out engine shouldnt have caused this on its own

My guess is that this plane was overloaded and had had technical difficulty and the pilots had the wrong flap settings in the moment

----------

