#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Thailand and Asia News >  >  > Business, Finance & Economics in Thailand >  >  Thailand : Public debts reach 36.92% of GDP

## Mid

*DEBTS* 

*Public debts reach 36.92% of GDP*
Tue, December 23, 2008

*Thailand's public debts stood at Bt3.4 trillion or 36.92 per cent of gross domestic product, according to the Public Debt Management Office.*

Of total, Bt2.1 trillion were the government's borrowing and Bt1 trillion belonged to non-financial state enterprises. 

In the month, PTT issued bonds worth Bt18 billion and Thai Airways International also tapped a Bt4 billion long-term loan. 

Due to the weaker baht, US dollar-denominated debts also raised the public debts in baht term.

nationmultimedia.com

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## Spin

> Thai Airways International also tapped a Bt4 billion long-term loan.


Bail-out? They kept that quiet :Smile:

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## Loy Toy

> Thailand : Public debts reach 36.92% of GDP


Astonishing state of affairs and again I wonder what is keeping the Baht afloat.  :Confused:

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## watterinja

Interesting economy is Thailand. Not sure how they manage to control the strength of the Baht.

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## Thormaturge

No problem.  just print some more money to pay off the debt.

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## bkkandrew

36.92% of GDP actually compares quite well with the US, UK, Japan and most Eurozone countries.

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## plorf

^ I was just going to say that, it certainly isn't that much, but Thailand has always kept very monetarist policies to keep taxes low. Not much spending on the poor either :-)

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## Butterfly

> hailand has always kept very monetarist policies to keep taxes low.


That sentence is wrong on so many levels. Would you care to explain ?

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## Rural Surin

> Originally Posted by plorf
> 
> hailand has always kept very monetarist policies to keep taxes low.
> 
> 
> That sentence is wrong on so many levels. Would you care to explain ?


Better yet Butts, why don't you explain where he is wrong? :mid:

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## Rural Surin

> Originally Posted by Mid
> 
> Thai Airways International also tapped a Bt4 billion long-term loan.
> 
> 
> Bail-out? They kept that quiet


I heard something about this a short time back. It has been public that Thai Airways International and Thai Domestic have cut a few routes that they have found to be weighted. Didn't you notice some 5-6 years ago, Thai domestic had slowly curtailed a couple of routes within their coveted market....

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## Butterfly

> Better yet Butts, why don't you explain where he is wrong?


You are from the Bkkandrew school of thoughts, aren't you ?  :mid:

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## BugginOut

> 36.92% of GDP actually compares quite well with the US, UK, Japan and most Eurozone countries.


 As of November 19, 2008, the total U.S. federal debt was $10.6 trillion.[2], with about $37,316 per capita (that is, per U.S. resident). The October 3rd, 2008 bailout bill (H.R.1424), section 122, raised the U.S. debt ceiling from $10 trillion to $11.3 trillion. Of this amount, debt held by the public was roughly $6.3 trillion.[3] In 2007, the public debt was *36.8 percent* of GDP [4], with a total debt of 65.5 percent of GDP.[5] The CIA ranked the total percentage as 27th in the world.[6]

U.S. Public Debt___Wikipedia

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## watterinja

If this debt ratio is all well & good, then why are the wheels falling off the US economy?  Surely it is unsustainable?   :Confused:

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## Norton

> Thailand's public debts stood at Bt3.4 trillion or 36.92 per cent of gross domestic product, according to the Public Debt Management Office.


Hardly a "shocking" number as compared to other countries.  In fact not bad at all.

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## Mid

GDP is going to fall   :mid:

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## Norton

> GDP is going to fall


Yes.  But which country's isn't?  Expect to see all % GDP numbers to increase worldwide.

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## Mid

true , but not by identical amounts ..................

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## Rural Surin

> Originally Posted by bkkandrew
> 
> 
> 36.92% of GDP actually compares quite well with the US, UK, Japan and most Eurozone countries.
> 
> 
> As of November 19, 2008, the total U.S. federal debt was $10.6 trillion.[2], with about $37,316 per capita (that is, per U.S. resident). The October 3rd, 2008 bailout bill (H.R.1424), section 122, raised the U.S. debt ceiling from $10 trillion to $11.3 trillion. Of this amount, debt held by the public was roughly $6.3 trillion.[3] In 2007, the public debt was *36.8 percent* of GDP [4], with a total debt of 65.5 percent of GDP.[5] The CIA ranked the total percentage as 27th in the world.[6]
> 
> U.S. Public Debt___Wikipedia


Only $11.3 trillion, huh? And it doesn't even bother them. They go on, business as usual. :Sad:

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## bkkandrew

> Originally Posted by bkkandrew
> 
> 
> 36.92% of GDP actually compares quite well with the US, UK, Japan and most Eurozone countries.
> 
> 
> As of November 19, 2008, the total U.S. federal debt was $10.6 trillion.[2], with about $37,316 per capita (that is, per U.S. resident). The October 3rd, 2008 bailout bill (H.R.1424), section 122, raised the U.S. debt ceiling from $10 trillion to $11.3 trillion. Of this amount, debt held by the public was roughly $6.3 trillion.[3] In 2007, the public debt was *36.8 percent* of GDP [4], with a total debt of 65.5 percent of GDP.[5] The CIA ranked the total percentage as 27th in the world.[6]
> 
> U.S. Public Debt___Wikipedia


Incorrect.

Using Wiki's own figures, US GDP is just under $17TR and FED debt (pre-bailout mode) stands at $10.5TR. That is 62%. After bailouts and other associated losses, wars and mishaps, FED debt will stand nearer $14TR at a time when GDP is declining, giving a percentage of nearer 90%...

Links:

List of North American countries by GDP (PPP) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

U.S. National Debt Clock

And then we come to Norton's map. Again fiction. As thrashed out here:

https://teakdoor.com/us-domestic-issu...tml#post746643

The stats are not comparable, as the US debt figure excludes State, Municipal, corporate and personal debt, whereas, for example, the Canadian figure includes State and Municipal debt and, as the following example shows:

https://teakdoor.com/us-domestic-issu...tml#post860609

That can make a huge difference.

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## bkkandrew

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by plorf
> ...


Panda dubbed him 'the heckler in the room'. There is no better description of him and his one-liner you quoted is a perfect example.

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## bkkandrew

And, if you think that the US is in the poo - take a look at the UK:



So, the number for the UK is nearing 300% of the (declining) $2TR GDP. Note the above chart is in £.

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## Norton

Worlds #2 economy, Japan is really a basket case.

"With gross *debt of 180% of GDP*, further measures to reduce the large budget deficit are increasingly urgent."

Economic survey of Japan 2008

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## Johnny Longprong

This figure is not so bad for Thailand. At least they have the potential to trade out of the current downturn where many others may not. At least Thailand can still produce relatively cheap goods and their agricultural sector is a demand product still being produced cheaply. Given some political stability, I would put them at even money or better to come out of this well.

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## Butterfly

> Interesting economy is Thailand. Not sure how they manage to control the strength of the Baht.


The strength of the THB has nothing to do with a given level of debt or budget deficit

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## bkkandrew

> This figure is not so bad for Thailand. At least they have the potential to trade out of the current downturn where many others may not. At least Thailand can still produce relatively cheap goods and their agricultural sector is a demand product still being produced cheaply. Given some political stability, I would put them at even money or better to come out of this well.


Thailand could given two things:

1. A lower currency against their export markets' currencies;

2. Export markets that were not in a state of economic collapse.

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## Spin

^ which brings us nicley to this export chart :Smile: 



Wanna guess what next months chart looks like?

The BOT still deny they are defending the baht using monetary policy.

My guess is that the Baht is headed to 40 to the dollar soon. It HAS to be devalued, exports are falling off a cliff. Tourism is on its arse.
All those stuffed shirts at the BOT and goverment departments who a few months ago said Thailand would be insulated from the global economic downturn are now looking very stupid indeed.

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## Johnny Longprong

> Thailand could given two things: 1. A lower currency against their export markets' currencies; 2. Export markets that were not in a state of economic collapse.


For sure there will be massive disruption to currency and trade markets in the short to medium term. However, those that will recover first will be the ones that are still in a position to do so. Many countries have outsourced their manufacturing and cannot come back at all. I still reckon Thailand is well placed in this regard and they are a major food producer and at least they don't have to use their own currency to eat. However, I think we all have to realise the future model will be nothing like the past, and hopefully not.

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## bkkandrew

^^Excellent chart Spin. The airport closure will need an extension of the chart at the bottom!

Using my export business as an example, I shipped progressively less month-on-month from September onwards and hardly anything at all (5% of usual) in December (normally my biggest month of the year by some distance), due to uncertainty to whether the airport would reopen for air freight.

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## Spin

> Japan is really a basket case.


Their problem right now is the vast unwinding of the yen carry trade, zero % interest rate loans flooded the world and folks simply borrowed in yen and bought nz or ozzie dollars and left the cash sitting at 5-7% interest.
All those trades are unwinding now and people have to buy yen which is driving up the exchange rate. Yens at a 13 year high now. Exports are being killed. Devaluation on the way?

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## bkkandrew

^Yes, Japanese exports down *27%* y-o-y in November.

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## Spin

Who gonna be first to call recession in Thailand? Maybe somebody else on TD has already but I believe Thailand will enter into recession during January 09.
I think we can forget about these "revised" figures coming from the government "3%" as opposed to "5%" the month before.

Take a look at this chart, the top export customers for Thailand, the yellow ones are in recession already. Those recessions are not just small ones either. This is serious stuff. Im glad that i sold all my baht denominated assets and bought cheap sterling. Baht has to tank soon, this afternoons googling of the thai economic situation has set off many alarm bells for me.



^ The Chinese will never admit to being in a recession but if you read between the lines on what happening there at the moment you might realise that that the chinese economy also fell off a cliff last month. Three interest rates reductions in a month now is it?

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## Butterfly

saying that Thailand is going to recession, is like saying it is going to be dark in the evening, a bit obvious

maybe a prediction for bkka to make ?  :Smile:

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## Spin

^ Im in a prediction kind of mood, even if it was a crap one :Smile: 




> is like saying it is going to be dark in the evening


A pedant would say that Eskimos residing anywhere near the North Pole would disagree :mid:

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## Mid

> Spin
> Who gonna be first to call recession in Thailand?


https://teakdoor.com/business-finance...-predicts.html (Thailand to Lift Spending as New Government Predicts Recession)

 :Aussie:

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## Spin

^  :mid: 

"Vietnam Devalues Dong to Fight Slowdown, Help Exports"

Farangs will be celebrating there today and not just for Christmas :Smile: ......

Dec. 25 (Bloomberg) -- Vietnam devalued its currency by 3 percent to help exporters after a report showed the economy grew at the slowest pace in nine years. 

The State Bank of Vietnam has allowed the currency to weaken 5.7 percent against the dollar this year, compared with a 29 percent slide in the Korean won and a 13 percent slump in the Philippine peso. Gross domestic product rose 6.23 percent in 2008, the least since 4.77 percent in 1999, the government said in preliminary figures published late yesterday. 

A weaker dong could spur export growth, which slowed in the past three months as stagnating global economies cut demand for the nation’s garments and coffee. A widening trade deficit is also prompting policy makers to favor a weaker currency, said Yuichi Izumi, an economist at Nomura Securities Co. in Tokyo. 

“The Vietnamese dong is facing downward pressure due to the current-account deficit,” Izumi said. “And the State Bank wants to guide the dong lower to support the export sector.”

full story

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## Johnny Longprong

Perhaps the definition of a recession needs to be redefined. The projected GDP graphs of many traditional major manufacturing countries will need very tall graphs indeed, and perhaps economic discussion based mainly on traditional economic theory, historical situations and events, will be largely irrelevant in the new world.

I think that we will be "back to basics", so far as our day to day existences go, much quicker than we could have ever imagined. The real issues are going to be food and shelter for many more people than is already the case, and without being a harbinger of doom, it could get even worse. What we see today as being necessary profit margins to maintain businesses will not be possible and those who realise this, and adjust now, will have half a chance of survival. The major expense of most businesses, staff, will need to be cut drastically and quickly. Expect a lot of this early in the new year.

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## bkkandrew

^You are correct. IIRC, the word recession was originally defined by a US economist who was doing the bidding of a former US president, who wanted to avoid the charge that the country was 'in recession'.

In any case, the backward-looking 'two consecutive quarters of negative growth', using constantly revised figures, that are themselves in arrears by 1-2 months does not address the type of modern, post information superhighway, crash, where the same information is available 24/7 to everyone around the world. IMO this gives rise to the far steeper crash curves we are experiencing today and phrases like economies 'falling off a cliff'. Quite simply it is meaningless to state that (for instance) the UK is not officially in recession, when the current quarter is heading for a 5-10% decline.

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## Begbie

A stupid question, but I'm not up on finance. 

If a country such as the UK has a public debt of 300% of GDP and Thailand 36% of GDP then to whom is this money owed ?

If for instance the UK owes 50% of its public debt to a lender country, wouldn't this essentially cancel out some of the debt of the lender. Therefore if for instance Japan has in the past been a major lender this may actually nullify it's own national debt.

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## bkkandrew

> A stupid question, but I'm not up on finance. 
> 
> If a country such as the UK has a public debt of 300% of GDP and Thailand 36% of GDP then to whom is this money owed ?
> 
> If for instance the UK owes 50% of its public debt to a lender country, wouldn't this essentially cancel out some of the debt of the lender. Therefore if for instance Japan has in the past been a major lender this may actually nullify it's own national debt.


The answer is complex, however to use the UK as an example, a simple definition:

You will see in my bar chart two classifications of debt. The first, PSND (Public Sector Net Debt), includes other commitments, such as B&B, NR and bank bailouts and is largely funded by sales of Gilts, which are parcels of debt bought by individuals, corporations, funds (such as pension funds), who may be domestic or foreign. The second debt is unfunded pension liabilities, which are essentially owed to current and future pensioners employed by the Public Sector. Allmost all of the latter group are domestic creditors.

So, in essence, there is no magic contra trade that could zero the debt. In the event the debt defaulted, banks (those that are left), corporations and pension funds would collapse as their assets (the Gilts) would be worthless.

The 300% of GDP figure in unsustainable, unparalleled in history and impossible to pay off without decades of frugal living and hard work, two traits that I believe the UK population is not capable of any more.

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## Mid

*Double deficit risk: Current account and fiscal shortfalls likely*
December 26, 2008
(Bangkok Post (Thailand) Via Acquire Media NewsEdge)

The Thai economy is likely to face the threat of a twin deficit in 2009 as slowing exports push the current account into deficit while the fiscal deficit, already projected at 249 billion baht, could rise further as the new government looks to boost spending.

Somchai Sujjapongse, the director-general of the Fiscal Policy Office, said the fiscal budget deficit is projected at 3.5 percent of gross domestic product for the year ending September 2009.

The current account, meanwhile, posted a deficit of 1.5 percent of GDP in November as exports shrank 18.6 percent year-on-year. While well below the 5 percent standard used to mark economic distress, the trend concerns policymakers.

"If we reach a current account deficit of over 2.5 percent then, well, it's pretty bad," Dr Somchai said.

And while deficit spending may be essential for growth, the reality remains that a higher deficit will affect the country's long-term fiscal position.

Public debt as a percentage of gross domestic product could rise from 38 percent now to pass the 50 percent limit set by law as spending rises and tax revenues fall with the slowing economy.

Dr Somchai said economic conditions in November were poor overall, with revenues from value-added taxes, an indicator of consumption, down 4.6 percent year-on-year.

Property taxes fell 6.4 percent year-on-year, boding ill for the property and building construction market.

The Fiscal Policy Office forecasts that the economy will contract 2-3 percent year-on-year in the current quarter, with growth for 2008 reaching just 3 percent, well below earlier forecasts of 5 percent.For 2009, economic growth is projected at just 0.9 percent to 1 percent, and it could decline even further if the global economy fails to rebound.

The government plans to announce its policies in Parliament on Monday and Tuesday, and have a full package of economic stimulus programmes ready for approval next month.

A supplementary spending bill well above the 100 billion baht figure discussed by the last government is likely to be approved, with funds to be focused on job programmes and social welfare.

Dr Somchai said the new government could finance additional programmes through alternative means. The government has room to guarantee up to 100 billion baht in loans for state enterprises, or borrow up to 150 billion from abroad or float new bonds of up to 50 billion to finance new spending.

tmcnet.com




> Public debt as a percentage of gross domestic product could rise from 38 percent now to pass the 50 percent limit set by law as spending rises and tax revenues fall with the slowing economy.

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## Johnny Longprong

> The 300% of GDP figure in unsustainable, unparalleled in history and impossible to pay off


Too bloody right Andy. I agree. The only way out of this is for the world to continue on it's spending spree. That can't and won't happen. The giant consumer marketing machine needs to be fed with forever increasing sales so that there is a reason to keep making more stuff that we are all convinced to desire and buy. The danger is, that the no one has yet turned the machine off or even down a notch or two, and it continues to fill us with desirous consumer thoughts. Even our governments are urging us to go out and spend as if the only solution to the problem is to keep feeding the machine. 
Lets hope we see strong and innovative leadership from the new US president. There will be lots of pressure on him to keep the old machine in service and not to invent a new one.

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## Begbie

Presuming the majority of British debt is in demoninated in pounds, wouldn't Gordon Brown be well advised to go for a bout of Zimbabwean hyperinflation.

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## Butterfly

debt is good, it creates money

without credit, there is no economic development, it has been like this since the Gold Rush of the 1800,

If you think we could survive and afford all the nice things and the nice technologies without debt, then you might as well move into a monestary now as this would be the life to live without debt

the basic mistake that most "candid" observers do is to assume that debt must be paid immediately. The truth is that the debt is extended over decades and it is the foundation of International Commerce in our global economy. It's only when one or two players are being silly with debt (US, UK) that it rocks the boat and makes everyone nervous.

Debt like money is the blood of the economy. Without it, there is no incentives to run the economy.

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## Bill Donnell

[QUOTE=Panda dubbed him 'the heckler in the room'. There is no better description of him and his one-liner you quoted is a perfect example.

I agree. Maybe his fetish with sentence construction and grammar might be better spent editing my  eight year old daughter's theme paper.

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## helge

> Originally Posted by Mid
> 
> Thailand's public debts stood at Bt3.4 trillion or 36.92 per cent of gross domestic product, according to the Public Debt Management Office.
> 
> 
> Hardly a "shocking" number as compared to other countries. In fact not bad at all.


According to this map, Norway has a massive debt. I not saying, that its incorrect, but nevertheless, it surprises me

But Iceland seems well of

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## Johnny Longprong

> debt is good, it creates money without credit, there is no economic development, it has been like this since the Gold Rush of the 1800, If you think we could survive and afford all the nice things and the nice technologies without debt, then you might as well move into a monestary now as this would be the life to live without debt the basic mistake that most "candid" observers do is to assume that debt must be paid immediately. The truth is that the debt is extended over decades and it is the foundation of International Commerce in our global economy. It's only when one or two players are being silly with debt (US, UK) that it rocks the boat and makes everyone nervous. Debt like money is the blood of the economy. Without it, there is no incentives to run the economy.


This model has failed. In fact it has failed many times in the past and has been resuscitated. This failure now is quite large and we have a unique breathing space to think about a better way of doing things. My point is that rather than apply the defribrillator once again, why not step back and look at other ways of doing things. 

I believe that by handing regulative controls back to the market operators or easing controls on financial market operators, we handed the kiddies the keys to the lolly shop. We need some better operating procedures in place before we head down the more debt track again.

I really can't believe that the banks and non bank lending institutions went down same road that their fathers and grandfathers went in the 70's and 80's. The lessons that were there to be learnt should have been quite indelible. How did they again ease their lending principles and get into this situation? Quite simply, they didn't learn from the past.

No, more debt is not better. Debt that can be repaid from profit is good and when I say this I mean within a reasonabale time. Would you lend your money to someone who did not have the ability to pay it back? Would you lend your money to someone who couldn't tell you when they were going to pay it back? Would you lend your money to someone who had nothing to back the bebt with in case they couldn't repay? Well, of course not.

Unfortunately that is what has not been happening these last 5 years or so.

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## Butterfly

> This model has failed. In fact it has failed many times in the past and has been resuscitated.


is it really failure or is it just chocked up ? There is no other model. If there is no credit line, there is no business. The alternative is to be living in the mountains and fucking sheep like the rest of the uncivilized world do. Is that what you want ?




> I believe that by handing regulative controls back to the market operators or easing controls on financial market operators, we handed the kiddies the keys to the lolly shop.


That's basically the core of the problem, deregulation, which is not the same as no debt. Abuses of any system will produce the same negative effects. Debt is not to be blamed, but the abusive deregulation of banks is.




> No, more debt is not better. Debt that can be repaid from profit is good and when I say this I mean within a reasonabale time. Would you lend your money to someone who did not have the ability to pay it back? Would you lend your money to someone who couldn't tell you when they were going to pay it back? Would you lend your money to someone who had nothing to back the bebt with in case they couldn't repay? Well, of course not.


Unfortunately, it's a little bit more sophisticated than that in a sophisticated and rich society. You can't compare things with a personal loan pattern. The mechanics involved are far too complex to simplify it that way.

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## mikehunt

So Butterfly, how is money made? Or is this a secret? Surely this equation of debt/credit MUST balance eventually? Since it doesn't appear to be balancing, why not?

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## bkkandrew

^Oh, I wouldn't bother asking Butterfly any questions about actual facts. He lives in his own world of magic money, magic economies, pixies and the talking knome at the bottom of the garden.

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## mikehunt

> ^Oh, I wouldn't bother asking Butterfly any questions about actual facts. He lives in his own world of magic money, magic economies, pixies and the talking knome at the bottom of the garden.


 :rofl:

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## Thormaturge

No problem with the banks learning a very harsh lesson this time around.  they are all clamming up out of fright.  it is anybody's guess how they expect to make money in future and my guess is that many banks will now fail as a result of having less business all round.

So governments are stepping in to make the mistake this time.  Should be fun to watch.  I wonder which country will be the next to require an IMF bailout...

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## Butterfly

> So Butterfly, how is money made? Or is this a secret? Surely this equation of debt/credit MUST balance eventually? Since it doesn't appear to be balancing, why not?


I don't think you will have the capacity to understand any of it, so why should I bother ?  :Smile: 




> ^Oh, I wouldn't bother asking Butterfly any questions about actual facts. He lives in his own world of magic money, magic economies, pixies and the talking knome at the bottom of the garden.


 :rofl:

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## mikehunt

> Originally Posted by mikehunt
> 
> So Butterfly, how is money made? Or is this a secret? Surely this equation of debt/credit MUST balance eventually? Since it doesn't appear to be balancing, why not?
> 
> 
> I don't think you will have the capacity to understand any of it, so why should I bother ?


Please bother...pretty please?

I have capacities that are untold on this planet. I will happily lend you my ears.

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## Thormaturge

Debt in itself isn't the problem, it is what you do with the money you borrow that counts.

A company that borrows money to buy materials to fund a profitable sale will ultimately return the money with interest and turn a profit on the sale.  

Borrowing money just to pay the bills and watching the balance rack up is entirely different and irresponsible.

It seems to me that the USA is now destined to borrow vast sums so that the population can buy plastic chairs and dog toys from China. while continuing to kid themselves they are rich.

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## Butterfly

> Please bother...pretty please?


ok, eat my cock first, and swallow  :Smile:

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## Thormaturge

Did you two make merit together in former lives?

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## watterinja

How does the Islamic Banking principle work?

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## Thormaturge

Broadly speaking they will not lend you money for projects deemed unethical or unlawful (so pig farms are out of the question, as are pig massage parlours).

Theoretically Islamic banks do not charge you for lending money to you since this is also prohibited.  That is correct, no interest or charges.  I'm not certain but I believe the way this is circumvented in business is by profit sharing.  The bank agrees to take a proportion of the profit from the business venture.  

Not much hope of GM getting any money from an Islamic bank just now.

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## watterinja

The no usury principle is also inherent in early Judaic theology. Wonder why it changed?

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## Thormaturge

^
Hasn't changed.  The amount you pay is based entirely upon a partnership between you and the bank.  No profit no fee.  So you are going into a form of business partnership in which they share.  Unlike Western banks where you pay charges and interest regardless of whether you make money or not.

It does mean that Islamic business advisors are exactly that because the bank's fortunes depend upon it, unlike Western banks where the business advisors are merely kiddies with a diploma from the local business college.

Usury is prohibited in the Bible too.  Try telling that to the Royal Bank of Scotland.

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## watterinja

Thanks for the insights, Tt. It sounds like a solid partnership arrangement, which should weather many storms. 

Unlike the current debacle unfolding on the greed-based world stage.

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## Thormaturge

There is a strong wealth sharing concept in Islamic society which has undertones in Obama's speeches.

 I'm not entirely sure how the Islamic (and Obama's) concept of excess wealth being shared amongst society will sit with Americans when they are subjected to Shariah law (oops, Obama's policies).

  It is harder to obtain finance from an Islamic bank, but much fairer once you do.  Of course borrowing money to open a pub, casino or porn shop is out of the question and for personal items you need to get the money from family who shouldn't be charging interest....because they are family.

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## Butterfly

for retail customers,they don't charge commissions, but duty stamps, that is actual labor hours "worked", like a salary

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## mikehunt

> Thailand's public debts stood at Bt3.4 trillion or 36.92 per cent of gross domestic product, according to the Public Debt Management Office.
> 
> Of total, Bt2.1 trillion were the government's borrowing and Bt1 trillion belonged to non-financial state enterprises.




"Each & every time a bank makes a loan, new bank credit is created - new deposits - brand new money."
Graham F Towers, Governer, Bank of Canada, 1934-1954.


"Permit me to issue & control the money of a nation, & I care not who makes its laws."
Mayer Anselm Rothschild, Banker.


Most of us believe that banks lend money that has been entrusted to them by depositors. This is not the case. Banks create the money they loan, not from the banks own earnings & not from the money deposited but directly from the borrowers promise to repay (loan contract).

We cannot to continue to function if we rely on perpetually accelerating growth & therefore, perpetually increasing debt.


"I have never yet had anyone who could, through the use of logic & reason, justify the Federal Government borrowing the use of it's own money...I believe the time will come when people demand that this be changed.
I believe the time will come in this country when they will actually blame you & me & everyone else connected with congress for sitting idly by & permitting such an idiotic system to continue."
Wright Patman, Democratic Congressman, 1928-1976. Chairman, Committee on Banking & Currency, 1963-1975.

BTW, thanks Butterfly, for giving me a red for my post (see https://teakdoor.com/902259-post53.html ). Why did you do it? Well, you remind of the advertisement for Kleenex shit paper..."Toughness comes in toilet tissue". Your skin is obviously as thick (or thin) as toilet paper. Blow it out your bum & then clean yourself up.
I shall not be joining the wanker "thin skinned" department & start issueing reds to anyone.

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## bkkandrew

> BTW, thanks Butterfly, for giving me a red for my post (see https://teakdoor.com/902259-post53.html ). Why did you do it?


Butterfly does this to everyone he loses an arguement with, so don't let it worry you. In any case, I greened you, so that should more than negate it.  :Smile:

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## paranha

> Originally Posted by Norton
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Mid
> ...



Sorry helge.... Will be kind of hard now. Please don't speak. Norway doesn't have a fcuking crown in debt. I don't know where you are from but I am very sure that norway has so much money that they could buy the half of your country and force you to work as a slave for the rest of it...

I should know... I hold a norwegian passport and very entitled to a big part of the "BLACK MONEY"  :Smile:  

BTW at the last account The State of Norway had far above 2000 billion norwegian crowns invested abroad.... Norway does not have a fcuking problem with money but they do have a serious problem with how the balance is built up..

On some other issues are you quite right:
In fact if you withdraw the oil, Norway would have a deficit that's about 35 billion norwegian crowns per quarter. 55% of the work force is inside the the beuracracy or public services without any means to get into the export market. And Norway is quite dependendt of a shopping economy.

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## paranha

USA is the world's biggest consumer and hence there lies the problem...

An old saying says that if you own the bank 1000 USD, tha bank owns you. If you own 1 million USD you own the bank. It's true.

US is so important to the world's economy that other countries have to help the US keep up their spending....

I am not wrong on this. The biggest buyers of US bonds is Actually Saudi Arabia, Japan And China - The same countries that are very dependent of the trade with the US. In Practice they'll lend USA money so they still can buy their merchandise..

In principe lending your customer money so he can continue his spending.

BTW the UK was finished with their downpayments on their war debts after the second world war in 2007. 


Ok. iF I'm wrong.. please feel free to post

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## ota

Even if Obama gets some traction from the newest  bailout  the US is  globalized  and isn't  going anywhere without  the rest of the world.

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## Butterfly

> Why did you do it?


I tend to red idiots and trolls, who make silly arguments. Don't worry, bkka also get his fair share as the village idiot of the board  :Smile: 




> I shall not be joining the wanker "thin skinned" department


You just did with that whining post !!!

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## Mid

*Thai Public Debt 38.13% Of GDP At End-Dec Vs 37.59% End-Nov*
-By Piyarat Setthasiriphaiboon, Dow Jones Newswires

*BANGKOK* -(Dow Jones)- The following table is public debt data released by the Ministry of Finance on Wednesday. 



```
                   End-Nov      End-Dec  End-Dec
                              % GDP     THB Mlns    % GDP
Direct government borrowing   23.37    2,134,734    23.45
Debt owed by non-financial
public enterprises            11.29    1,047,263    11.50
Debt owed by state-owned
Financial institutions         1.32      143,939     1.58
Debt owed by Financial
Institutions Development Fund  1.52      136,915     1.50
Debt owed by other agencies    0.09        8,494     0.09
Total                         37.59    3,471,345    38.13
```

 
Note: Of total public debt at end-December, 94.98% was long-term debt and 5.02% was short-term debt. 

Domestic debt accounted for 88.03% of total debt while external debt amounted to 11.97%.

nasdaq.com

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## Mid

*Public debts at 39.93% of GDP in February*
Mon, April 27, 2009

*Outstanding public debts stood at Bt3.598 trillion or 39.93 per cent of gross domestic product (GDP), showing an increase of Bt73.8 billion from the previous month, according to the Public Debt Management Office.*

  Government borrowing in the month rose Bt78.4 billion from January.  

 Pongpanu Savetarun, director-general of the office, attributed the increase to the issuance of Bt88 billion treasury bills; of total, Bt39 billion is to address the 2009 revenue shortfall. 

Moreover, to tackle the shortfall, the government also issued Bt17 billion of government bonds and Bt13.5 billion of promissory notes.

nationmultimedia.com

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