#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Teaching In Thailand >  >  Don't get ripped off by Thai schools

## bruceveld

My first expereince in Thailand was visiting some friends who lived in Chang Wattana and sent thier kids to ISB--all at company expense. My friend argues that ISB was an excellent school and worth every penny. I argued that you can do a lot of educating with $15 per hour per kid for the time they spend in school (including study hall and lunch time).

I have three kids and, as it works out, I live too far away from the nearest over-priced international school. It gives me a convenient excuse to avoid paying their ridiculous fees. Tey just hire my TEFL grads anyway!!

So what do I do with my kids? I send them to Thai school every other year and I hire one of my TEFL grads to tutor them on alternate years (home schooling). I buy books (mainly when I go back home but there is a heck of a lot on the internet for free or a very low access fee) that have the curriculum they need to cover and the tutor spends 5 hours a day with them (for 30,000 baht per month).

I also have UBC and INSIST that they ONLY watch English programming and give them prizes and gifts for reading English books (my 13 year old has read all Harry Potter books and recently finished The Stand (all 1,400 pages) by Steven King. All for a new (and admittedly nice) guitar.They all seem to love Discovery Channel.

The results? All three of my kids are completely fluent in English and Thai. All of them do well in school (they even spent a few months back in the US and were top of their classes). 

We've managed all this for 720,000 total in tutor bills over 7 years. Total for all three kids.

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## kingwilly

> Tey just hire my TEFL grads anyway!!


I doubt that. ISB is a good school.




> So what do I do with my kids? I send them to Thai school every other year and I hire one of my TEFL grads to tutor them on alternate years (home schooling).


However, home schooling is also a good option, if done properly, kudos to you. 

Not for everyone though.

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## bruceveld

> Originally Posted by bruceveld
> 
> Tey just hire my TEFL grads anyway!!
> 
> 
> I doubt that. ISB is a good school.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ISB does NOT hire our grads, but some of the international schools around Rayong/Pattaya do. The closest one to me has several.

I do not have the time do Home School my kids myself but its an option if you hire a decent TEFLer with a head on their shoulder.

And to make it more exciting... its technically ILLEGAL!   :Smile:

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## kingwilly

> ISB does NOT hire our grads, but some of the international schools around Rayong/Pattaya do. The closest one to me has several.


IME the international schools around Rayong/Pattya are..... well, aint really up to the same standard as schools like ISB.

But thanks for the clarification, I was thinking you were saying the ISB hired TEFLrs..... (which they would hire one or two, to teach ESL classes, but in the mainstream classes, no.)

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## kingwilly

> I do not have the time do Home School my kids myself but its an option if you hire a decent TEFLer with a head on their shoulder.


A number of years ago I was offered to apply for a job in New York, homeschooling 2 kids.....

A cool $70K p/y plus accommodation etc ....

But i reckon you would have _worked_ for that money.

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## Wayne Kerr

> 720,000 total in tutor bills over 7 years. Total for all three kids.


Wow that is very, very cheap. Is it really possible to get good tutors for this sort of money in Thailand? Thinking of taking a year out next year and home schooling Wayne Jnr on an around Australia surfing/endless summer. Just scared his mind is too hungry for his worn out old man  :Smile: .

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## mrsquirrel

Shouldn't the title of this thread be 

Don't get ripped off by cheap bastards who want you to school their children at home. Ask for more money.

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## Nawty

I had thought about this also as we will be moving to an area where there is only one good international school and it is expensive.

But the reality of hiring a 'good' english teacher that has an 'all round' ability to teach 'ALL' the required subjects well is probably not likely and also combine that with 30/50k a month mentioned. Most teachers at these schools that are any good and not pedo candidates are on 80/120k a year so I am told.

Also you say you send the kids to thai school every 'other' year, does this not confuse the kids and disrupt them somewhat, one year at school and get used the lifestyle, then at home, no friends or school life and interaction etc etc.

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## bruceveld

> I had thought about this also as we will be moving to an area where there is only one good international school and it is expensive.
> 
> But the reality of hiring a 'good' english teacher that has an 'all round' ability to teach 'ALL' the required subjects well is probably not likely and also combine that with 30/50k a month mentioned. Most teachers at these schools that are any good and not pedo candidates are on 80/120k a year so I am told.
> 
> Also you say you send the kids to thai school every 'other' year, does this not confuse the kids and disrupt them somewhat, one year at school and get used the lifestyle, then at home, no friends or school life and interaction etc etc.


 
We have hired two recent uni grads from the states and one very capable filipina.  I mean REALLY, is it that difficult to teach 5th grade social studies?  If it were getting into grades 11 and 12 I might get concerned.

Recruiting isn't difficult.  25 hours of 45 kids is a lot more work.

And they are dealing with 2 hours of 3 kids together and 3 hours of kids one on one.  Its not that demanding.  In fact all of the teachers has developed a very close relationship with our kids.

We make sure they always get to go to visit friends on weekends and participate in other activities whenever available.  

Anyway it has worked for us!

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## Butch

> recently finished The Stand (all 1,400 pages) by Steven King.


You let your 13 year old read The Stand?

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## kingwilly

You're TEFL watch guy, aint you in the middle of a court case or summtink?

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## bruceveld

> Originally Posted by bruceveld
> 
> recently finished The Stand (all 1,400 pages) by Steven King.
> 
> 
> You let your 13 year old read The Stand?


Yes.  I read it at 13 or 14 as well.  Problem?

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## bruceveld

> You're TEFL watch guy, aint you in the middle of a court case or summtink?


Me?  Can you clarify?

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## Bexar County Stud

Sounds like a good plan except I would be concerned about the kids math and writing skills. I can't imagine the Thai schools would offer much if anything in these departments and finding a good tutor for these areas is difficult, no?

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## Nawty

Like I said...1 good teacher that has very good skills in all areas, math, english, writing, science, social studies, sport, whatever else kids learn at school these days...oh yeah... puters

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## Skettios

the stand is about the best book ever, followed immediately by Gaiman's American Gods.

it's pretty simple, kids who read books are smart kids.

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## theudonshawn

My kids are primary students.  They go to the local catholic primary school for a couple hundred dollars a term.  My boy knows as much as I knew in third grade... 

I teach at a local high school... the kids who put forth effort are as clever as the kids back in the states who pay attention to what their teachers are saying and do their homework. The dumb kids here are just as smart as the dumb jocks I went to high school with... except they do actually seem to read more fluently then your average non-scholar athlete.

Bottom line, the kids only get out of school what they put in.  It's the parents' job to make sure their kids go to school with the right attitude.

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## Topper

> Bottom line, the kids only get out of school what they put in. It's the parents' job to make sure their kids go to school with the right attitude.


Well said sir!

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## AntRobertson

> ...I send them to Thai school every other year and I hire one of my TEFL grads to tutor them on alternate years (home schooling)...


Taking them in-and-out of school like that, it's gotta be unsettling for them.

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## Topper

> You let your 13 year old read The Stand?


I think the Stand is a great book.  The tv series was excellent.

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## Butch

> Problem?


Yes. Too young in my opinion.

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## Topper

> Yes. Too young in my opinion.


Got to agree.  At the age of three, its called a nursery...5-6 its called kindergarten.  After all Bruce, how many years of kindergarten did you attend...3 like in Thailand or just one?

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## kingwilly

PM on the way Shayno

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## Smeg

> Anyway it has worked for us!


- Does that mean you or the kids? 
- Do you think that when they grow up they will thank you for using their education as an experiment in economising?
- Do you think this experiment will affect their chances when applying for places in higher education, or will you expect them to economise by studying for a degree at home with one of your graduates?

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## mrsquirrel

> You let your 13 year old read The Stand?


I read most of Stephen Kings books by the time I was 11. 

Only ever got scared by a bit of IT and the one with the sparrows. Otherwise they were good for me.

Read the ones things like Clan of the Cavebear as well.

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## bruceveld

In my opinion...

My kids seem to enjoy the change of pace.

They are VERY comfortable and confident dealing with adults in a one-on-one situation.

They all speak, read and write at US grade level.

Home schooled kids have an excellent track record of gaining admittance to US universities.

Their very diverse background will make them MORe attractive to universities.

All of them did well when they studied in the US.

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## andrewdicksonsmith

I worked at an international school for two years it was a con 80% of the staff were either Indian Burmese Phillipino Arabic Turkish not one of them spoke anywhere near half decent English.The white staff we had were in the main unqualified one American guy claimed all sosts of things yet could never confirm his degree's.Snidey git he was too,always trying to get people fired.I have no education qualifications but I was a manager in charge of teachers so it didn't matter.We lost some good qualified experienced teachers in my time there.The school is on Rama 9 near Seacon Square.120,000 + baht a year to be ripped off by the Indian and Arabic directors

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## kingwilly

> I worked at an international school for two years it was a con 80% of the staff were either Indian Burmese Phillipino Arabic Turkish not one of them spoke anywhere near half decent English.The white staff we had were in the main unqualified one American guy claimed all sosts of things yet could never confirm his degree's.Snidey git he was too,always trying to get people fired.I have no education qualifications but I was a manager in charge of teachers so it didn't matter.We lost some good qualified experienced teachers in my time there.The school is on Rama 9 near Seacon Square.120,000 + baht a year to be ripped off by the Indian and Arabic directors


aint international then.

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## good2bhappy

^^ Hi ADS
Good to see you

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## Marmite the Dog

> ISB is a good school.


It's an over-rated money pit.

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## bkkmadness

Actually aside from the argument this has descended into I think the OP made some valid point about home education being better value for money than the overpriced International school education.  It's something I would consider myself.




> And I won't even talk about the drug/social problems.....


This is quite an interesting point that I often think of but rarely see brought up when discussing Int. schools.  I have noticed that kids that go to international schools are far more likely to do drugs at an earlier age than children at govt. schools. 

I really don't know the stats on that, it's just something that's always been fairly apparent to me from knowing people who have been to both types.  Money, access and broader social circles is probably the cause.

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## bruceveld

I do not have statistics but i have spent 18 years in Asia and, in that time, I have known a lot of international school students and a lot of expat parents. I have heard a lot of stories. Both from ISB and HKIS. Pampered expats and the local super rich. 

Some of my friends are very religious and they had real problems with drugs (kids with VERY expensive cars and trunks full of drugs and guns), sex (most girls had lost it by age 15 and some were active at 12 and 13) etc. One of my friends actually moved his entire family to Chiang Mai for a year because his daughter's best friend was the daughter of a massage mogul and this girl was already ahving sex at 12. He was VERY concerned about his daughter.

As far as quality of education goes, ISB is cetainly excellent. But socially I would be very careful about sending MY 3 kids there. Some of the smaller international schools are more of a mix of Thai and Western culture--respect of parents, not a lot of drugs, but poor educations and very expensive.

For us, ISB is not even an option--too far away. The other schools MIGHT be an option but we decided on the best Thai givernments we could find + extensive home schooling.

If anyone wants some free advice on websites etc, let me know.

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## good2bhappy

This is an interesting option.
I have taught Kindergaten, primary, secondary and tertiary levels during my last 6 years in Thailand.
I have taught at both 3rd level Int schools and within a bilingual programme and can truthfully state that I have not come across any outstanding teachers.
As far as Maths is concerned I can teach basic calculus(plus other disciplines) and science at A level standard(Chem and Bio).
So if I can give my kids 1-2 hours of my time a day I reckon they could go to a Thai school and not be disadvantaged.  
I don't have 1 million bht spare a year for each of my kids and I don't wish to return to the West so a top school like Shrewsbury is not on the cards.

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## bruceveld

> This is an interesting option.
> I have taught Kindergaten, primary, secondary and tertiary levels during my last 6 years in Thailand.
> I have taught at both 3rd level Int schools and within a bilingual programme and can truthfully state that I have not come across any outstanding teachers.
> As far as Maths is concerned I can teach basic calculus(plus other disciplines) and science at A level standard(Chem and Bio).
> So if I can give my kids 1-2 hours of my time a day I reckon they could go to a Thai school and not be disadvantaged. 
> I don't have 1 million bht spare a year for each of my kids and I don't wish to return to the West so a top school like Shrewsbury is not on the cards.


Yes and my VERY STRONG SUGGESTION is English only at home and UBC exclusively in English.

And don't forget, Math and a few other subjects can be taught by a bright Thai.  Maybe a local uni student looking for a PT job.

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## good2bhappy

^ don't forget the Mandarin

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## bruceveld

> hey, if I were an expat living in BKK (and my company was paying) GREAT! I would strongly consider it. But bang for the buck? No. Not there.


WHAT ARE YOU ON Camel? Cheat a rich person? 

As you can see from MY QUOTE, if someone were paying it for me, cool. You can READ, correct?

And I would be happy to answer questions about TEFL International on another thread. Or you want me to "sell" right?

Evidence seems to clearly show that while you THINK you know a great deal, you actually know practically nothing.

Scratch that... absolutely nothing.

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## Smeg

> I have three kids and, as it works out, I live too far away from the nearest over-priced international school. It gives me a convenient excuse to avoid paying their ridiculous fees. Tey just hire my TEFL grads anyway!!
> 
> So what do I do with my kids? I send them to Thai school every other year and I hire one of my TEFL grads to tutor them on alternate years (home schooling). I buy books (mainly when I go back home but there is a heck of a lot on the internet for free or a very low access fee) that have the curriculum they need to cover and the tutor spends 5 hours a day with them (for 30,000 baht per month). (they even spent a few months back in the US and were top of their classes). 
> 
> We've managed all this for 720,000 total in tutor bills over 7 years. Total for all three kids.


So, when you were in the US, you happily sent them to school because it was free. In Thailand, you need a "convenient excuse" to avoid paying for them to attend a similar type of school. And you feel proud that you currently spend less than USD1000 per child per year on their education. 

I hope you are right about your faith in what you are doing, because otherwise they are paying a very dear price for your unbreakable desire to live in Thailand.

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## bruceveld

Smeg, the nearest international school (one hour drive from my house--BY CAR) is not a good school.  ISB is one thing.  This school is not ISB.

I can honestly say my kids are doing well.  They are bright, inquisitive, intelligent, and socially well rounded.  If this is because of or in spite of their education, we will never know.

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## Indoexile

> Smeg, the nearest international school (one hour drive from my house--BY CAR) is not a good school. ISB is one thing. This school is not ISB.


hmmm, so are you now conceding the ISB is a decent school after all?

Bit misleading if not just dishonest to include them in the OP then.

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## bruceveld

I never said ISB was not an excellent school. I said it did not have BANG FOR THE BUCK!

Maybe its from all those years of studying Econ as an undergrad but to me no one (except perhaps the Bill Gates of the world) purchase things strictly upon their quality without regards to price.  All of us probably eat steak, but none of us probably refuses to eat any steak except Kobe beef because it is the best (and 100 x the price of normal steak).  Intead we get the steak that costs 1/100th the price but is half as good.  We all seek value.

ISB is an excellent school. Probably the best in Thailand. But that does not mean that it does not have problems. Is it worth $10,000 + per year? Personally, I do not think so. But, hey, if you have your own opinion, COOL. I guess I am not entitled to mine. lol

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## good2bhappy

thats why I love TD

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## bruceveld

> thats why I love TD


lol glad we are here to entertain you!  

I get PM's and stuff saying I should just ignore it because the idiots are "just jealous".  Hey if I were Bill Gates or Michael Jordan I would figure it comes with the territory but I just run a freaking TEFL course....  I simply do not deserve all this attention.

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## Nawty

There is nothing wrong with home schooling if it is done right.

In outback Australia many hundreds of kids are educated by 'school of the air' not even have teachers present.

Others are educated with a governess or such and any combination of the above.

Many of these kids turn out well educated, many go from primary school like this onto very good boarding schools and excel.

So what is being discussed here is bascially the same and can be done I guess. But as I said before, hiring one person as a teacher for 30k baht a month who is good at all aspects of teaching would be hard to come by.

But I may just try this myself one day, get a nice little swedish backpacker teacher for a year at a time. Build a sauna and jacuzzi as well.

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## Smeg

> Smeg, the nearest international school (one hour drive from my house--BY CAR) is not a good school. ISB is one thing. This school is not ISB.
> 
> I can honestly say my kids are doing well. They are bright, inquisitive, intelligent, and socially well rounded. If this is because of or in spite of their education, we will never know.


Do you deny that they are having to put up with a highly economised and disjointed education simply because YOU want to live in a developing world country and can't/won't pay out for the type of school they could go to in the US? 
Do you not see the irony in a guy who advertises a school which charges $1590 per month who himself limits his own kids' educational investment to $80 per month each?

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## bruceveld

> Do you deny that they are having to put up with a highly economised and disjointed education simply because YOU want to live in a developing world country and can
> t/won't pay out for the type of school they could go to in the US??


Do you DENY? Sorry, Smeg but this is not a trial of Bruce. I could do anything I wanted and it would be none of your f$#%ing business. So my suggestion would be to change the tone of your questions next time or you will NOT get an answer.

Please realize that my wife is Thai and my children are dual citizens. While they have visted the US for a total of 9 months, they have spent the vast majority of their lives here and my wife and youngest daughter STRONGLY PREFER living in Thailand and are not in the least bit interested in moving to the US. My two sons are certainly very happy here and while the oldest sometimes says he would like to live in the US, he is also very happy in thailand. If there is any of the five that would like to spend more time in the US it is me. So it does not seem to be a very accurate portrayal you are painting to begin with.





> Do you not see the irony in a guy who advertises a school which charges $1590 per month who himself limits his own kids' educuational investment to $80 per month?


And another warning. Lets completely avoid who I am here and what I do. Its not the subject at all. Don't bring it up in this thread or, again, you will not get the courtesy of a response. 

But I will cut you JUSt a bit of slack this time.  Apples and oranges. One month specialized intensive course to 12+ years of education. Vocational training to traditional education. Shall I go on?

For me, as their father, my primary goal is to have them be prepared for study in a US university. This seems to be working. next I want them to be happy and well rounded. Again, this seems to be working. Next, because they are Thai, I want them to retain their ability to speak, read and write in Thai and to retain their Thai culture. Again, this seems to be working.

If ISB were right next door I could not afford it anyway. And if I could I would be very concerned about drugs and social problems. Would I send them anyway if it were free and right next door? Probably. 

But ISB is NOT right next door and the nearest international school, while technically affordable is still quite expensive (with three kids I believe it would be $30,000 per year and that is half my salary) and too far for a daily commute anyway. 

I would NEVER consider boarding school for my kids. That is an option in Thailand. but not for me. You only have them once. 

Right now this (combined Thai school + home schooling) is an option that is working.

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## Smeg

> I could do anything I wanted and it would be none of your f$#%ing business. So my suggestion would be to change the tone of your questions next time or you will NOT get an answer.


You start a DISCUSSION thread to tell the world about your private life and how clever you are and then get shitty and start swearing when people don't agree. Headcase....

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## Smeg

Personally, I would NOT raise a family in Thailand unless I

1) Worked in a good international school and received free education for them
2) Had enough wealth to effortlessly send them to a school as good as they could go to in my native country
3) Worked for a multinational that paid for it.

Your hare-brained penny-pincher scheme about using thai schools and a TEFLer sounds daft to me. So sorry that you don't like my opinion.

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## bruceveld

> Originally Posted by bruceveld
> 
> 
>  I could do anything I wanted and it would be none of your f$#%ing business. So my suggestion would be to change the tone of your questions next time or you will NOT get an answer.
> 
> 
> You start a DISCUSSION thread to tell the world about your private life and how clever you are and then get shitty and start swearing when people don't agree. Headcase....


Smeg, I expect more from you. Don't be a brainless jerk like a few of the others. 

I started the thread because there was a long thread about international schools and how expensive they are so I decided to be helpful and tell people an alternative that they may not have thought of.  

PLEASE NOTE that I did not say anything like "I welcome criticisms and personal attacks of me and of my decision by people who know nothing about the situation, especially those criticising me just because I run a TESOL course".  If I did post that somewhere, send me a link, ok?

This clearly does not benefit me. Its just me participating in a public forum to help a few other people out there who might have kids like me and might be searching for options.

That still does not give you (or anyone) the right to question MY decisions with MY kids. YOu want to have a general discussion abot kids in general, great. You want to ask me questions? Fine. You want to make this some kind of Trial of Bruce, especially since you do not know me or my kids, F%$K off. 

But, of course, I say that in the nicest possible way.  :Smile:

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## dirtydog

smeg whats the matter? won't kk play with you anymore  :Smile:

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## Camel Toe

What did you do to upset the Jewish Defense League?  Something about students parading around dressed as Nazis? 




> On 30 October 2000, President Clinton signed Public Law 106-395, the "Child Citizenship Act of 2000". This bill, which took effect on 27 February 2001, made two changes to the laws pertaining to naturalization.
> 
>     * A child (under 18) -- natural or adopted -- of a US citizen, who is living in the US with his/her American parent as a permanent resident (i.e., "green card" holder), is automatically a US citizen, without any need to apply for naturalization. Children who already met these requirements as of 27 February 2001 became US citizens automatically on that date. This provision also means that a minor child of an alien permanent resident (or residents) automatically becomes a US citizen upon the naturalization of either parent.
> 
>     * A child (again, under 18, and either natural or adopted) of a US citizen, who lives outside the US, can be naturalized if either a parent or grandparent has fulfilled a five-year US physical presence requirement (including at least two years after the parent's or grandparent's 14th birthday). The child (along with his/her American parent) must travel to the US in order to be naturalized, but this can be done on a temporary visit and need not involve immigration as a permanent resident. One key difference between this provision and a similar provision in Public Law 103-416 is that the child's parent or grandparent can now fulfill the US physical presence requirement after the child's birth. Under the 1994 law, US presence by the parent or grandparent after the child's birth was irrelevant. 
> 
> Note, in both of these cases, that the child's US citizenship is not retroactive to his/her birth. Thus, there is still a difference between these situations and the "natural-born" cases provided for by INA 301 [8 USC § 1401].


After living in Asia for 18 years, how did you pull this off?

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## Smeg

> Originally Posted by Smeg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by bruceveld
> ...


You made this thread personal, not me. You could have quite easily passed on your wonderful idea to the idiots who couldn't come up with it themself without referring to your own kids and without starting a new thread that is personal to you.

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## Smeg

> smeg whats the matter? won't kk play with you anymore


I used to play with bruce long before kk. I first got to know kk because (like the slimey little scumbag he is) he showed up to give bruce a kick or two when he was down after a long cyber-slog with me.  :Smile:

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## bruceveld

> You made this thread personal, not me. You could have quite easily passed on your wonderful idea to the idiots who couldn't come up with it themself without referring to your own kids and without starting a new thread that is personal to you.


Dearest Smeg:

Thank you for your worthless and pointless opinion on how you think I should have started this thread.  I have noted it and will consider it carefully.

now go find another thread where you have SOMETHING to say.

BYE

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## bruceveld

> What did you do to upset the Jewish Defense League? Something about students parading around dressed as Nazis? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				 On 30 October 2000, President Clinton signed Public Law 106-395, the "Child Citizenship Act of 2000". This bill, which took effect on 27 February 2001, made two changes to the laws pertaining to naturalization.
> 
> ...


 
Let me explain from the beginning, OK?

OK first you need to find a GIRL. GIRLS are different than BOYS. Boys have a penis, girls have a vagina. If you are already confused, ask mommy.

Next you have to have SEX. Go to Pantip and pick up some "X VDO". Watch and learn.

next you have to do THAT with a GIRL. No, really, its the ONLY way.

Finally, if you manage to do all that right, 9 months after a baby comes from her tummy. 

When all that happens (and my guess is that it will be years if it ever does at all), send me a PM.  I wil lbe very happy to help.

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## Smeg

Be seeing you then darling

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## Texpat

Good info Bruce.

Educating our children is important and too many options are always better than too few.

Have a green.

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## Smeg

:Sad: ^ so where is my green for highlighting the downsides that Bruce in his perfection would find it impossible to mention?

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## bruceveld

> ^ so where is my green for highlighting the downsides that Bruce in his perfection would find it impossible to mention?


Several people had questions about how it was working and I answered. So far so good.  After all,  it wasn't working we would not continue and I certainly would not be here advocating it!

Only a few jerks tried to make this into an anti-Bruce thread.

Repent Smeg, repent!!

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## Texpat

Have a red smeg for being a twat.

Bruce never claimed his system was perfect, only that it seems to be working for him, for now. I'm sure others in his situation might appreciate hearing the advantages and disadvantages of alternative options.

Why are you being such a twat? Does it pain you to see people taking an imperfect situation and tweaking it to make their lives better?

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## Smeg

^ It's called a discussion. Are people who don't agree with the OP's idea banned from stating why? Have a red back, arsehole.

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## bruceveld

"Do you deny"  that you would not have the same issues with some unknown poster?

"Do you deny" that you make it your personal (kinda sick) passtime to harass TESOL course providers?

No need to answer, we already know.....

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## Camel Toe

So Bruise, how did you pull off a dual citizenship?

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## Indoexile

> And if I could I would be very concerned about drugs and social problems.


erm this was mentioned before as a reason that a local school it better than a good international one. 

the drug problems they face are not because of the school, got more to do with the kids already going there.

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## bruceveld

> So Bruise, how did you pull off a dual citizenship?


Do you want a real answer or are you just here being a dick?

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## Smeg

Here is a request to do something that you more than most hate to do, Bruce. Make this thread fully informative by giving a balanced review of your actions and tell us the downsides, as you see them. 

I had to step in to play devil's advocate because as usual you only tell one side of the story (the side that makes you look so clever)

----------


## Camel Toe

> Originally Posted by Camel Toe
> 
> 
> So Bruise, how did you pull off a dual citizenship?
> 
> 
> Do you want a real answer or are you just here being a dick?


A real answer, please.  And include the Jewish Defense thing if you wish. I want to know all about you.

----------


## bruceveld

> Originally Posted by bruceveld
> 
> And if I could I would be very concerned about drugs and social problems.
> 
> 
> erm this was mentioned before as a reason that a local school it better than a good international one. 
> 
> the drug problems they face are not because of the school, got more to do with the kids already going there.


you are absolutely right, Indo.  Its not lSB is handing out the drugs!  But many students at international schools have a lot of disposable income and are relatively unsupervised.  

I don't care whose fault it is.  As a parent it is my job to protect my children from situations they are too young to handle.  And as someone who did have a drug problem at 13 (thats another story) I would worry about the amount of drugs that are being used at these international schools and if my child fell into the wrong crowd.

----------


## bruceveld

> Here is a request to do something that you more than most hate to do, Bruce. Make this thread fully informative by giving a balanced review of your actions and tell us the downsides, as you see them. 
> 
> I had to step in to play devil's advocate because as usual as you only tell one side of the story (the side that makes you look so clever)


So far, for my kids, it seems to have worked great.  But how can you really know?  They are happy, intelligent and relate well to other children and to adults.  is this IN SPITE OF their schooling or BECAUSE OF it?  How can I really know?

----------


## Indoexile

> But many students at international schools have a lot of disposable income and are relatively unsupervised.


exactly, naught to do with the school.




> I would worry about the amount of drugs that are being used at these international schools


erm, I think you'll find that they arent using the drugs AT school.

and are you saying that poorer schools dont have drug problems?

naive comment if so.

just the richer kids can afford to play with more expensive drugs, aint any safer or better really.

----------


## Smeg

^^ What is "intelligence"? Skills, knowledge, or common sense?

Anyway, your tale is an interesting case study. How old are they now?

----------


## Indoexile

BTW - if you found a well qualified/experienced teacher to do this job, are you able to give them a work permit for this job?

----------


## bruceveld

> Originally Posted by bruceveld
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Camel Toe
> ...


Jewish Defense thing?  NO IDEA.

All Americans living abroad who have children can submit a form called something like "American Birth Abroad".  you submit that along with your passport and the birth cirtificate to the embassy.  They usually interview you, too.  If everything seems legit they issue a passport.  The children are NOT naturalized.  they aare US citizens from birth, just born abroad.

----------


## Smeg

^^ A good point. Bruce has already stated that this is illegal (i presume the not attending school issue). It doesn't, to me, show a good role model, which is an important part of education, by breaking the law to provide the education itself.

----------


## bruceveld

> Originally Posted by bruceveld
> 
> But many students at international schools have a lot of disposable income and are relatively unsupervised.
> 
> 
> exactly, naught to do with the school.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have been in thailand for 12 years now and I can say for a certainty that kids at international schools use far more drugs than kids at a typical provincial Thai school.  There is absolutely no doubt in my mind.

----------


## bruceveld

> ^^ What is "intelligence"? Skills, knowledge, or common sense?
> 
> Anyway, your tale is an interesting case study. How old are they now?


13, 11 and 10

I anticipate they will do more out-of-school reading on their own and do  less home schooling (if any) once they pass M3.

----------


## Indoexile

> I have been in thailand for 12 years now and I can say for a certainty that kids at international schools use far more drugs than kids at a typical provincial Thai school. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind.


based on what data?

----------


## bruceveld

> BTW - if you found a well qualified/experienced teacher to do this job, are you able to give them a work permit for this job?


Well for us we could sponsor them through our school.  But obviously those who do not have schools would need to consider other options.  Lots of free lancers out there.

----------


## bruceveld

> ^^ A good point. Bruce has already stated that this is illegal (i presume the not attending school issue). It doesn't, to me, show a good role model, which is an important part of education, by breaking the law to provide the education itself.


lol yeah its better to follow the law (IN THAILAND LMAO) instead of providing a good education for your kids.

Its the law that all kids must attend school until they are M6 according to the new constitution. But we (obviously) hae a lot of friends and acquaintences at the MOE. they met our kids.  We told them what we were doing. We were certainly not hiding it. They are well aware that home schooling in the US is huge (with up to 4 million kids home schooling now) and they asked a lot of questions but were not concerned in the least.  Some even asked jokingly if their kids could study with ours!

----------


## Indoexile

> Well for us we could sponsor them through our school.


would that be within the terms of the work permit?




> But obviously those who do not have schools would need to consider other options.


pretty sure most people do not own their own schools here matey.




> Lots of free lancers out there.


yes, they are all down sukhumvit road of an evening, they aint gonna be much good teaching though, same as many of your TEFL'rs'

(and apologies to the ones that actually do a good job)

----------


## dirtydog

> BTW - if you found a well qualified/experienced teacher to do this job, *are you able to give them a work permit* for this job?


Pretty sure that would come down to the Thai labour dept kingwilly, doubt if Bruce can give out work permits, although obviously he does have to supply the paper work for the person to obtain a work permit.

----------


## Indoexile

> Originally Posted by Indoexile
> 
> BTW - if you found a well qualified/experienced teacher to do this job, *are you able to give them a work permit* for this job?
> 
> 
> Pretty sure that would come down to the Thai labour dept indoexile, doubt if Bruce can give out work permits, although obviously he does have to supply the paper work for the person to obtain a work permit.


**Pedant alert.**


yeah, yeah, yeah, same difference.

----------


## bruceveld

> would that be within the terms of the work permit?


In our case, yes as they were employed as a teacher.





> pretty sure most people do not own their own schools here matey.


Which I believe was clearly stated in "
_But obviously those who do not have schools would need to consider other options." or was there a part of that you could not understand?_





> yes, they are all down sukhumvit road of an evening, they aint gonna be much good teaching though, same as many of your TEFL'rs'
> 
> (and apologies to the ones that actually do a good job)


Lol, so they are all on sukhomvit except those actually doing a good job...

Now THAT makes a lot of sense!

Heres my suggestion. CHOOSE A GOOD ONE. Heck, even a bright Thai with decent English can cover a lot of subjects. Or a filippina!

----------


## Indoexile

> CHOOSE A GOOD ONE.


erm, you maketh our point. There is not loads and loads of good teachers, just hanging around to get a year's work from you teaching your children.





> Heck, even a bright Thai with decent English can cover a lot of subjects. Or a filippina!


now you are just being silly.

quoted so you cannot change this one later.

----------


## bruceveld

> Originally Posted by bruceveld
> 
> CHOOSE A GOOD ONE.
> 
> 
> erm, you maketh our point. There is not loads and loads of good teachers, just hanging around to get a year's work from you teaching your children.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There are THOUSANDS of English teachers in Thailand. There are many that can do this well. Its a heck of a lot easier to do this than teach 50 kids at a time. teaching Primary Math, Social Studies, Science, Health is not at all difficult. Find someone who likes kids and is friendly. They can teach them the materials easily.  Once you actually sit down and READ the material you may realize I am right.  

In my opinion, and the opinion of some pretty well-respected researchers, our current warehousing of children in schools is harmful. If you did any research on Education you would learn that the current education structure was developed by the Prussians as a way of training solders and Bureaucrats. Yes men who did not need to think for themselves and follow orders. Thats the last thing I want for my kids.

Check out the classic on alternative education, "Why Children Fail" by John Holt or his follow up "How Children Learn". He was a huge advocate of Home Schooling far before it became fashionable and I am a huge fan of his work.

But others disagree. Its cool. Do whatever you want with your own kids.

----------


## Camel Toe

I am interested in unschooling (I prefer the term) and have been reading about it for some time.  There seems to be no conclusive evidence of the outcome of unschooled children later in life.  What queers the stats, as far as their advanced formal schooling and success in life, is that most unschooled children are of higher income families.  So success-wise they are already at the silver spoon.  What does seen practically sound is that it may not be a good idea past grade 3.  What I found surprising is a stat that shows unschooled children are much more likely to be molested by parents, unschooling being a way to keep them out of public view.  

There are many successful people, like Abe Lincoln, Che Guivera, Tom Edison, who were home-schooled.  This seems impressive (to me at least because I like Che and Tom) until you see a list of those who weren't home-schooled. 

If I were to leave my five children in the hands of a home schooler he or she would have to meet my approval by providing more than a TESL certificate and a BA in whatever.  If they were learning at home I be just as interested in what they were learning as I would if they were in the best school money could buy.  Home schooling wouldn't relieve me of these worries, wouldn't make my life any easier at all.  I believe exposure to the real world as it is today is paramount to education.  There are a lots of temptations out there.  Best learn how to deal with them ASAP.

----------


## bruceveld

> I am interested in unschooling (I prefer the term) and have been reading about it for some time. There seems to be no conclusive evidence of the outcome of unschooled children later in life. What queers the stats, as far as their advanced formal schooling and success in life, is that most unschooled children are of higher income families. So success-wise they are already at the silver spoon. What does seen practically sound is that it may not be a good idea past grade 3. What I found surprising is a stat that shows unschooled children are much more likely to be molested by parents, unschooling being a way to keep them out of public view. 
> 
> There are many successful people, like Abe Lincoln, Che Guivera, Tom Edison, who were home-schooled. This seems impressive (to me at least because I like Che and Tom) until you see a list of those who weren't home-schooled. 
> 
> If I were to leave my five children in the hands of a home schooler he or she would have to meet my approval by providing more than a TESL certificate and a BA in whatever. If they were learning at home I be just as interested in what they were learning as I would if they were in the best school money could buy. Home schooling wouldn't relieve me of these worries, wouldn't make my life any easier at all. I believe exposure to the real world as it is today is paramount to education. There are a lots of temptations out there. Best learn how to deal with them ASAP.


Some good and interesting points (a welcome change) Camel.

There are loads of great materials and even interactive programs available online. We used time4learning.com and k12.com along with materials we picked up from the US. Costco always had great stuff especially DVD based cirriculum.

But we also asked the teachers to give us weekly reports on progress. you can't just hire the guy (or gal) and forget them. Just like everything else, the more attention you pay to it, the more your kids will get out of it. Sometimes I would just show up and see what they were doing.  :Smile: 

I forot to  mention that sites like time4learning.com allow you to moniter what lessons your kids study, ho much time they spent and how they did.  Very helpful!

----------


## Camel Toe

> Costco


Glad to see you don't shop at Wal*Mart.

----------


## bruceveld

> Costco
> 			
> 		
> 
> Glad to see you don't shop at Wal*Mart.


 
Don't worry Camel, your former job as Wal mat greeter is safe with me.  lol

And don;t say you didn't deserve that.  you did.   :Smile:

----------


## Smeg

Bruce, how do you go about getting your kids involved in group work, peer learning, and team-based sports ( all of which are important parts of a rounded education in my opinion as a UK qualified school teacher)?

----------


## kingwilly

> in my opinion as a UK qualified school teacher


was this bit really necessary?

----------


## DrAndy

> Originally Posted by Smeg
> 
> in my opinion as a UK qualified school teacher
> 
> 
> was this bit really necessary?


 
seemed reasonable

if his opinion as a UK qualified garbage collector was stated, then you probably would not have taken much notice

teachers do get some training in the UK, so tend to pick up on what they are told

----------


## Nawty

_In my opinion not everyone can do it 'easily' as stated._

_My 6yo came home in the first month at his new 1st grade school, his home work consisted of thai and math and english. His english was to read 2 words and have me expalin them to him._

_I had to go look up on the internet one of those words me self._

_Fancy askin a 6yo to spell and explain what photosynth...photosinthesy....photosynthesis ?? is all about._

_So crikey if i cannot do it then god help the gimps getting paid 40k a month to do it._

----------


## Camel Toe

Six years old is one year younger than normal.  Must be a bright kid.  Don't care for Bruce much myself, only because I have this thing for aggressive salesmen, but unschooling does have an advantage, your case is one of them.  I personally would never turn mine over to the Thai educational system.  Nor would I turn them over to one of Bruce's White boys with a TESL certificate.  

It's all about money isn't it?  Or is it not?  When I was reunited with my long lost son 20 years ago we had a strong heart to heart.  I found myself saying "But I couldn't afford, I couldn't afford."  He turned out to be a good adult and went to school for 12 years in Providence RI with dark people who say _waz up_ a lot.

Parents have to have more an influence on their kids than the waz upers have.  If they don't they fcuked up!  And will most likely blame to school.

I'm a teacher in Thailand -- please don't throw shit at me, and the system sucks more than you ever believed.  In classes of 50+ there are loads of losers, mostly boys, way over 50% of them.  There are always a few good ones though, about two or three per class.  I bet 100% of those parents would easily believe, in a natural way, their kid is one of the good ones.  That's why I love Songkron so much, when Darwin does his thing.

----------


## Nawty

I would not say he is bright, well his english teacher said he was, but he can read and write and spell a hell of a lot more than I ever remember at that age and he loves it. He amazes me sometimes with what he says and writes. He just finished a half page write up on his trip to Singapore last week and what he did.

He goes to a Bi-Lingual school now that he finished Kinda, only reason he did not stay at the first school was because they do not do beyond k3. It was expensive in my books for what I considered 'playtime'. But then again look at him now and maybe it was a good grounding for him.

Current school is around 54k per year, whereas the other was 120k.

Next year hope to be moving and the only school in the area which is not Thai is 300k.

----------


## Camel Toe

There is another bad system, the kinder.  Kinder in Thailand is what we call Day Care in Yankerland.  And they stay there until they're six, usually.  Why start a kid in grammar school at seven, he/she loses one year.  I've had high school kids in their 20's.

----------


## Topper

> Bruce, how do you go about getting your kids involved in group work, peer learning, and team-based sports ( all of which are important parts of a rounded education in my opinion as a UK qualified school teacher)?


While the whole "qualified" and "teacher" being used by Smeg to describe himself either hysterically funny or vomit inducing BS, I've got to agree Smeg has a point.

Bruce, how do you also educate your kids in interacting in a social environment with their peers?  This is equally important in any childs development as learning static information.

----------


## bruceveld

First of all, to Camel S%#! for brains, drop the crap.  No one cares what you think of me or TEFL courses or anything else for that matter.  You want to PARTICIPATE in this discussion, cool.  if not, get the f$^& lost.  Your little dog and ppony show is tired and boring.

Smeg and CSFFFAN, the jury is still very much out as the the necessity of socialization pre year 6 (12 years old or so).  Some very well respected voices say we are prematurely putting our children into an overly-structured environment with bullies, peer pressure and social classes far too early.

I believe in socialization and so during the times our kids are hme schooling I make sure they are able to go visit friends virtually every Saturday.  They can also join private music/sports lessons during their spare time.

----------


## Camel Toe

This is not pparticipation?  If you compare this:




> Don't care for Bruce much myself, only because I have this thing for aggressive salesmen


to this:




> There is another bad system, the kinder. Kinder in Thailand is what we call Day Care in Yankerland. And they stay there until they're six, usually. Why start a kid in grammar school at seven, he/she loses one year. I've had high school kids in their 20's.





> Six years old is one year younger than normal. Must be a bright kid. Don't care for Bruce much myself, only because I have this thing for aggressive salesmen, but unschooling does have an advantage, your case is one of them. I personally would never turn mine over to the Thai educational system. Nor would I turn them over to one of Bruce's White boys with a TESL certificate.
> 
> It's all about money isn't it? Or is it not? When I was reunited with my long lost son 20 years ago we had a strong heart to heart. I found myself saying "But I couldn't afford, I couldn't afford." He turned out to be a good adult and went to school for 12 years in Providence RI with dark people who say waz up a lot.
> 
> Parents have to have more an influence on their kids than the waz upers have. If they don't they fcuked up! And will most likely blame to school.
> 
> I'm a teacher in Thailand -- please don't throw shit at me, and the system sucks more than you ever believed. In classes of 50+ there are loads of losers, mostly boys, way over 50% of them. There are always a few good ones though, about two or three per class. I bet 100% of those parents would easily believe, in a natural way, their kid is one of the good ones. That's why I love Songkron so much, when Darwin does his thing.

----------


## dirtydog

> When I was reunited with my long lost son 20 years ago


You sound like a great parent  :Smile:

----------


## Camel Toe

I confessed, right?

----------


## dirtydog

^Well here you are questioning Bruce on the way he is bringing up his children when you deserted your own son, seems a bit strange  :Smile:

----------


## Camel Toe

> When I was reunited with my long lost son 20 years ago we had a strong heart to heart. I found myself saying "But I couldn't afford, I couldn't afford." He turned out to be a good adult and went to school for 12 years in Providence RI with dark people who say waz up a lot.


So you already know what separated us, and how old he was 20 years ago?  Or is it because he lived in a place where there were a lot of Black people?  And just how much time is "long Lost"?  I had a tooth ache last month.  It only lasted a day and a half but it sure seemed like a long time.

----------


## Nawty

How did you lose him ?? on a plane, a train, in a car, a bar ?? When he was returned, did he have travel luggage tags all over him from around the globe ??

----------


## Frankenstein

> Originally Posted by bruceveld
> 
> 
>  I could do anything I wanted and it would be none of your f$#%ing business. So my suggestion would be to change the tone of your questions next time or you will NOT get an answer.
> 
> 
> You start a DISCUSSION thread to tell the world about your private life and how clever you are and then get shitty and start swearing when people don't agree. Headcase....


Fuck off, troll pants. Go do something useful.

----------


## bruceveld

> When I was reunited with my long lost son 20 years ago we had a strong heart to heart. I found myself saying "But I couldn't afford, I couldn't afford." He turned out to be a good adult and went to school for 12 years in Providence RI with dark people who say waz up a lot.
> 			
> 		
> 
> So you already know what separated us, and how old he was 20 years ago? Or is it because he lived in a place where there were a lot of Black people? And just how much time is "long Lost"? I had a tooth ache last month. It only lasted a day and a half but it sure seemed like a long time.


Lets play Internet Stories.

I know that these things are all true.

You met your wife in a bar.  You abandoned your wife and kid.  You never supported them or ever gave them any money.  Your kid was totally undiciplined and ran around everywhere like he was wild or something.

----------


## Camel Toe

What would you expect, he was never home schooled and never graduated from your school.

Yeah, I used to come to Thailand all the time when I was 18.  I had a pension from the US Division of The White Folks Fund, along with the thousands my dead parents left me.  In Thailand I married my first lay, lost interest in her because she got a little heavy around the waist, took a hike and never looked back.  Uncanny the way salesmen can get the goods on ya, eh?

----------


## bruceveld

> What would you expect, he was never home schooled and never graduated from your school.
> 
> Yeah, I used to come to Thailand all the time when I was 18. I had a pension from the US Division of The White Folks Fund, along with the thousands my dead parents left me. In Thailand I married my first lay, lost interest in her because she got a little heavy around the waist, took a hike and never looked back. Uncanny the way salesmen can get the goods on ya, eh?


You totally missed the irony, camels#!% for brains.

Come on now, you are the guy who quoted TW and a few other websites here until the mods deleted your crap. You failed to connect with the fact that everything I accused you of were the same ridiculous lies TW made about me? I expected more.

Oh, quote me selling a tefl course. It never happens. All I ever have to do is defend against idiots (like, um, you) who twist truth or just make up stories. I thought it might be fun to give you an example of your own crap and you might catch the irony. Unfortunately WAY above your head there.....

BTW, just to keep this on topic, the fact that I have 3 kids of very similar ages makes socialization a pretty natural process around my place.

----------


## Smeg

^ Bruce, why do you think people "twist the truth or just make up crap" as you put it? I mean, why do they single you out? Do you have no idea?

And to keep on topic, the kids would probably have more social life if they were at school full time, of course.

----------


## bruceveld

> ^ Bruce, why do you think people "twist the truth or just make up crap" as you put it? I mean, why do they single you out? Do you have no idea?


Why would they make up such complete utter CRAP? Such complete lies? My guess would be there are some (small percentage of) sick, sad and twisted folks around here and posting lies on the internet is the only enjoyment they get out of their sad, pathetic lives. 

The only guess I have for "the site we do not name" is hits. Why the owner decided to make up the story that I got him fired from his job, despite the fact tha the knew perfectly well that i did not? It drew attention. 





> And to keep on topic, the kids would probably have more social life if they were at school full time, of course.


Like I posted earlier, some very well respected researchers would say that socialization we provide in years 1 to 6 is more harmful than helpful. That is certainly at least debatable.

I can see their thinking. You can't? I can give you at least one concrete example from my own childhood that backs up their thinking on the subject.

----------


## kingwilly

> Like I posted earlier, some very well respected researchers would say that socialization we provide in years 1 to 6 is more harmful than helpful. That is certainly at least debatable.


Quote one.

----------


## Camel Toe

> some very well respected researchers would say that socialization we provide in years 1 to 6 is more harmful than helpful.


I have to agree.  Those kids educated in a crackhouse homeschool are more likely to, er, um, die before they're six.




> some very well respected researchers


Give me a break.  Isn't this logical fallacy #7? Appeal to a higher authority?

----------


## Reaper

Interesting thread to say the least. Its a topic that always comes up between expats in Thailand. Where would you want your children to be educated? Most prefer the West, however what happens if you dont want or plan to go back. Could the solution be to group some expat kids more or less in the same age group and hire 2 teachers to home school them?

----------


## bruceveld

> Originally Posted by bruceveld
> 
> Like I posted earlier, some very well respected researchers would say that socialization we provide in years 1 to 6 is more harmful than helpful. That is certainly at least debatable.
> 
> 
> Quote one.


Go to your nearest good bookstore and buy "Why Children Fail" by John Holt.  His books are classics.  I could write five pages on why he feels formal education is dangerous and counter productive.  

In QUICK summary:

1.  Our children are exposed to social structures they are unable to handle at such an early age (bullies, rich vs poor, etc.)

2.  Our children are taught that school and LEARNING is not enjoyable.

3.  Only 30 percent of people are truly successful in the "memorize and regurgitate" enrironment of current schools.  the rest feel like failures.

From his book "Underachieving Schools" Holt says "At this time I was coming to realize that children see schools as a place of danger and that theyir mail goal is to stay out of danger."

----------


## Smeg

Bruce, were you home-schooled?

If not, do you wish you had been?

----------


## Mister Fixit

> I can see their thinking. You can't? I can give you at least one concrete example from my own childhood that backs up their thinking on the subject.


So, an anecdote, then?  A single one at that.  Hardly scientific, and hardly something to base your entire argument on, such is you believe it to be.

----------


## bruceveld

> Bruce, were you home-schooled?


Nope







> If not, do you wish you had been?


Interesting question.  I did not handle the constraints of (private Catholic) grade school very well.  My grades were poor and they thought I had ADD.  I probably would have been far better off in a less structured environment like Home Schooling.

----------


## Camel Toe

> private Catholic


Sorry to hear that, mate.  Please forgive all the negativity I posted, I didn't know, honest, I had no idea!

----------


## Mister Fixit

> Originally Posted by kingwilly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by bruceveld
> ...


I'm smelling a strong smell of faddy, minority-thinking-educational pseudo-intellectual, pseudo-scientific claptrap.

It may well be, and I suspect it actually IS, true that the reason that 30% of people succeed in school is that they are better than the others and hence do well.  It's called a normal distribution curve, and some at#re at the top end ans some are at the bottom end, with most people somewhere in the middle.  If I recall correctly, half of one standard deviation is just over 30% so that would fit in nicely with 30% doing better.

Or are you one of these clots who thinks that all people are the same, and won't even allow school ports days in case a kid comes last and bursts into tears?

And it may be 'memorise and regurgitate' in Thai school, but it isn't like that in most Western schools any more.

----------


## bruceveld

Actually, mr. Fixit, I am NOT agreeing with Holt on how schools are all dangerous for young kids.  If I did I would not send my kids to school at all!  I can see his point, but I am not nearly so dogmatic.

----------


## Camel Toe

> private Catholic





> I am not nearly so dogmatic.


How did you shake it?

----------


## bruceveld

> Originally Posted by bruceveld
> 
> Like I posted earlier, some very well respected researchers would say that socialization we provide in years 1 to 6 is more harmful than helpful. That is certainly at least debatable.
> 
> 
> Quote one.


 
I was actually just answering a question by Kingwilly.

BTW, the guy who wrote Rich Dad Poor Dad also talks about this in one of his books--how he was considered borderline retarded because of his unorthodox learning style.

----------


## bruceveld

> private Catholic
> 			
> 		
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> ...


I literally spent most of 3rd 4th and 5th grades in the hall. I talked back to the Nuns all the time. Either very brave or very stupid lol.

I consider myself very lucky to have been raised in the US because in most countries I would have been fast tracked to vocational training and out of the educational system.  Instead I am probably one of the few people who increased their GPA at every level of my education.  From C/D in grade school to B in high school to B+ in university to A- in grad school.

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## Mister Fixit

Yes, well,  teachers on the whole are not the sharpest knives in the intellectual box and I can see that anyone who seemed out of the ordinary or seemed not to fit into a teacher-comfortable pigeon hole would be seen out of the ordinary and considered retarded or whatever.

You said teachers thought you had AD/HD - if you haven't just what DO you have?

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## dirtydog

> Yes, well, teachers on the whole are not the sharpest knives in the intellectual box


Milkman, factory workers, brick layers, yeah I see what you mean  :Smile:

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## bruceveld

> Yes, well, teachers on the whole are not the sharpest knives in the intellectual box and I can see that anyone who seemed out of the ordinary or seemed not to fit into a teacher-comfortable pigeon hole would be seen out of the ordinary and considered retarded or whatever.
> 
> You said teachers thought you had AD/HD - if you haven't just what DO you have?


Lol good question! I never believed I had ADD. Heck, I could read long books. give me something INTERETING and I could pay attention. Expect me to sit like some kind of caged animal quietly in a desk all day and I had problems.

And our nuns were psycho, too.  They gave us 3 hours of homework EVERY NIGHT.  if there was nothing else to do they would give us 50 long division quesitons--anything to waste our time.

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## NickA

> BTW, the guy who wrote Rich Dad Poor Dad also talks about this in one of his books--how he was considered borderline retarded because of his unorthodox learning style.


I've read one of his books, the only thing they got wrong is that he wasn't borderline.

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## Mister Fixit

> Originally Posted by Mister Fixit
> 
> Yes, well, teachers on the whole are not the sharpest knives in the intellectual box
> 
> 
> Milkman, factory workers, brick layers, yeah I see what you mean


You're talking about TEFLers in Thailand - I'm talking about teachers everywhere and anywhere.

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## Mister Fixit

> Originally Posted by Mister Fixit
> 
> 
> Yes, well, teachers on the whole are not the sharpest knives in the intellectual box and I can see that anyone who seemed out of the ordinary or seemed not to fit into a teacher-comfortable pigeon hole would be seen out of the ordinary and considered retarded or whatever.
> 
> You said teachers thought you had AD/HD - if you haven't just what DO you have?
> 
> 
> Lol good question! I never believed I had ADD.


Then I suspect you'd be wrong.




> Heck, I could read long books. give me something INTERETING and I could pay attention. Expect me to sit like some kind of caged animal quietly in a desk all day and I had problems.


Sounds right - need for constant stimulation, context sensitive ability to concentrate when the subject matter is interesting, inability to cope in a structured environment ...

Ever thought of going for a diagnosis, Fidgety Phil ...?

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## bruceveld

> Originally Posted by bruceveld
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Mister Fixit
> ...


Wel when I was in 8th grade and still doing poorly in school I was sent to a psychologist who said, in his opinion, I never had ADD and that my test scores for intelligence were off the charts.  He told my parents to get me away from the Nuns.  He seemed to be right because once I left St. Lukes and went to a public high school my ADD mysteriously disappeared!

But you, having never met me, certainly are far more capable of seeing the truth.... LOL

Oh knife, sharpen thyself!

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## kingwilly

> Go to your nearest good bookstore and buy "Why Children Fail" by John Holt. His books are classics. I could write five pages on why he feels formal education is dangerous and counter productive.  In QUICK summary:  1. Our children are exposed to social structures they are unable to handle at such an early age (bullies, rich vs poor, etc.)  2. Our children are taught that school and LEARNING is not enjoyable.  3. Only 30 percent of people are truly successful in the "memorize and regurgitate" enrironment of current schools. the rest feel like failures.  From his book "Underachieving Schools" Holt says "At this time I was coming to realize that children see schools as a place of danger and that theyir mail goal is to stay out of danger."


How many other Education researchers cite his work then?

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## kingwilly

> BTW, the guy who wrote Rich Dad Poor Dad also talks about this in one of his books--how he was considered borderline retarded because of his unorthodox learning style.


Robot Kyosaki?

He has been discredited as a fake and a fraudstar.




> Instead I am probably one of the few people who increased their GPA at every level of my education.


oh you are so good.

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## Camel Toe

> Instead I am probably one of the few people who increased their GPA at every level of my education.


My school records show that as well.  So, I ask myself: Is this a process that keeps on keeping on till I'm 120 years old?  It might if I stayed in school that long.  What kept my grades going higher and higher is that I learned how the system works, how one can actually do very little and be rewarded very big.  Did you become corrupted in university as I did, Bruce?

My university mentor taught me one very valuable less in life:  What you're learning in uni is very interesting, even intriguing.  But never forget the real World is an ignorant place, your stay here is a distraction from that World.  What you say about what you've achieved here will be of no interest to 99% on the people you'll meet once you step off campus.  In fact they'll probably just think you're an asshole for bringing it up.

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## bruceveld

> Instead I am probably one of the few people who increased their GPA at every level of my education.
> 			
> 		
> 
> My school records show that as well. So, I ask myself: Is this a process that keeps on keeping on till I'm 120 years old? It might if I stayed in school that long. What kept my grades going higher and higher is that I learned how the system works, how one can actually do very little and be rewarded very big. Did you become corrupted in university as I did, Bruce?
> 
> My university mentor taught me one very valuable less in life: What you're learning in uni is very interesting, even intriguing. But never forget the real World is an ignorant place, your stay here is a distraction from that World. What you say about what you've achieved here will be of no interest to 99% on the people you'll meet once you step off campus. In fact they'll probably just think you're an asshole for bringing it up.


These really ARE words to live by!

Kingwilly, to a google search or wikipedia on the guy.  he is legend.

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