#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Doing Things Legally >  >  (P) Alimony/Child support from the non married EX....

## Cliffy

Hi Gents,

I'm a newbie here seeking some advice or actually info if you've come across a similar situation...

Been with the girlfriend for 10 years, we have 3 kids together, we sort of separated 5 years ago and both of us met new partners. However we did co-habit for the sake of the kids although generally not staying in the house at the same time. I've always paid for everything including International school fees, hospitals, dentists etc etc. Now we're splitting for good, I've received a lawyers letter asking for half the house which is in my (company) name. And 50% of a few other assets !

Kids have lived with me for the past 6 months anyways, she also says she now wants to take care of the kids and receive child support. I'm happy to pay for everything (child support, education etc etc) if she's going to take care of the kids properly, BUT I'd rather not have to sell my house and give her half which would soon be blown on a new car, iPhone X etc etc....

Anyone come across a similar situation that ended in court ? I'm a bit concerned as I am a farang and she is an educated Thai what my chances would be in a Thai court...

Cheers Cliff

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## Chittychangchang

Good luck Cliff you are gonna need it. 

If the 3 kids have been living with you for the last six months then what has the mother been doing?

She now wants to take care of them as you are splitting officially?
Sounds like it's all about money.

Some harsh decisions coming your way soon.

Good luck with it all and welcome to TD.

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## Maanaam

Counter sue. Go for custody first while the kids are with you. You can show that you're supporting them very well and she has had no interest.
If you can win custody, then threaten her that you'll sue her for child support unless she gets reasonable.

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## Chittychangchang

You've got a valid argument seeing as though you've been a sole parent for the last six months.

Go for it as suggested  above, she fooked off and 9 times out of of ten when theres a fight through  the courts.

Main point to consider is the children,:they come first. 

Don't let her know that as she'll use it against you.

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## David48atTD

(Forum) Correct me if I'm wrong but ... the children, assuming you are living in Thailand, assuming  she is a Thai National and you are not,
even if your name is on the child's birth certificates, the children are not yours legally, unless there has been a court order.


But, to your question ... offer her nothing.  Laugh at the suggestion of selling the house*

Sell nothing.

Don't fall for the age old story of ... 'the private school costs $XXXX', 'food costs $XXXX', 'the ... costs $XXXX', 
thus just give me $XXX,XXX per month.

If you want to school the kids in an International School, pay the fees directly and check they are enrolled AND attending.

A stipend of BHT 5,000 per month is sufficient to pay for the child's costs ex International School Fees.

If you Lawyer up ... be cautious.  Thai Lawyers often don't work in their clients interests.

If you have a genuine interest (and I'm sure you do), get the kids Passports to your (presumably) Western Country.


* though, this statement "_the house which is in my (company) name_" which is highly legally questionable but 
maybe best saved for another day.

---

Just a start and the best of luck.

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## VocalNeal

> * though, this statement "the house which is in my (company) name" which is highly legally questionable but 
> maybe best saved for another day.


If it is a legit company with an address, business income, employees and a work permit etc.. then it should be OK. If it is a "company" for the sake of house purchase then keep "mum" about the house. 

Buy the house from the company? For a nominal fee. Not saying you should but you could then the you cannot sell one without the other. etc,etc. 

There are many ways to skin a cat. 

Does she have a new chancer Thai boyfriend?

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## Latindancer

I agree with all the above. You are currently in a stronger position than her, having had the kids for 6 months.  Do not do or say anything to weaken your position.

For convenience sake and to analyze it better, temporarily break up the problem into sections.

And yes....the house being in your company name is something that needs to be focused on for a while.

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## VocalNeal

My point was that the house and the land can be separate.

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## Cliffy

Thanks to all the BM's for your quick replies, I'll start replying to the replies !!!

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## Cliffy

Cheers Maanaam, Yeh I have considered going for Custody IF she does decide to go to court. But I've generally read you have slim chance if Farang vs Thai ....

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## Cliffy

Yes you're 100% correct, we're all living in Thailand, Not married but Yes we did declare me the father at Court a few years back ...
All Kids also have UK Passports etc.
For sure I'd be paying the schools directly !
I will (Farang) Lawyer up next week...
Cheers
Cliffy





> (Forum) Correct me if I'm wrong but ... the children, assuming you are living in Thailand, assuming  she is a Thai National and you are not,
> even if your name is on the child's birth certificates, the children are not yours legally, unless there has been a court order.
> 
> 
> But, to your question ... offer her nothing.  Laugh at the suggestion of selling the house*
> 
> Sell nothing.
> 
> Don't fall for the age old story of ... 'the private school costs $XXXX', 'food costs $XXXX', 'the ... costs $XXXX', 
> ...

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## Cliffy

It's a company for the sake of the Land/House purchase. I'll keep MUM but not sure she would in Court !!!
That's a good idea re buying the house from the company, although I guess a court could force a sale if it wanted to via Legal Execution Dept...
Thai boyfriend : prefers Farangs BUT would like to come back to "take care of the kids" = sit around doing nothing all day !




> If it is a legit company with an address, business income, employees and a work permit etc.. then it should be OK. If it is a "company" for the sake of house purchase then keep "mum" about the house. 
> 
> Buy the house from the company? For a nominal fee. Not saying you should but you could then the you cannot sell one without the other. etc,etc. 
> 
> There are many ways to skin a cat. 
> 
> Does she have a new chancer Thai boyfriend?

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## Cliffy

Yup the house is an issue, I'm thinking I should maybe sell below market price, and rent ! 




> I agree with all the above. You are currently in a stronger position than her, having had the kids for 6 months.  Do not do or say anything to weaken your position.
> 
> For convenience sake and to analyze it better, temporarily break up the problem into sections.
> 
> And yes....the house being in your company name is something that needs to be focused on for a while.

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## Dragonfly

you are fooked, Thai courts are not like in Europe, parents are responsible 50% and you can't negotiate that, so in that part you lost already

your only way for more custody is through a private agreement, because if she gets less than 50%, the agreement will not stand the court if made public

for the house you are fooked, it will be very easy to demonstrate that your company is a "proxy" and that becomes a "land office" case, it will be immiadetly liquidated unless you find a Thai buyer under your own terms

don't listen the usual "delusional" farangs who tell you have nothing to lose and you hold all the cards. You can never make those assumptions in Thailand. If you do, you will loose everything for sure.

If you want to have the upper hand, your only option is to get out of Thailand with your kids, with her approval.

if she has a new boyfriend, this is actually your biggest advantage, she can spend more time with the new guy without taking care of the kids, but that usually last 6 months until they want to have the kids again. Should have left during the honeymoon period.

Tough choices, and again no assumptions here. Thai courts will give 50% custody because family laws says you can't take away that "right" no matter what, wich is actually a sensible law, unlike in Europe where the ruling change everything and can create a lot of damages.

Thai courts can be quite sensible, above all when kids are involved, so don't play the european "legal" attitude because that doesn't fly here with the judges.

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## Maanaam

Put the company and house in a trust for the kids. Carry on living there, and you'll have to pay market rent, so that goes to the trust but can be used for the kids' education expenses.

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## Dragonfly

minors have to have a legal "guardian" for holding titles, and it's usually the mother, or a lawyer

either case, can you afford to lose the property to a lawyer who can fake paperwork and organize the sale of the property without anyone knowing ?

tell the wife you will buy her share of the house (she has 50% by default for living there) and that should do it,

in the private agreement, state that you bought her share, and she will not make further claim to the house. If you go to court later over this, because of the dodgy "proxy" of the land, you will get paid the full amount by the court, instead of 50% for each, since you already paid her

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## Latindancer

> Put the company and house in a trust for the kids. Carry on living there, and you'll have to pay market rent, so that goes to the trust but can be used for the kids' education expenses.


That's an interesting bit of lateral thinking.

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## Cliffy

> you are fooked, Thai courts are not like in Europe, parents are responsible 50% and you can't negotiate that, so in that part you lost already
> 
> your only way for more custody is through a private agreement, because if she gets less than 50%, the agreement will not stand the court if made public
> 
> for the house you are fooked, it will be very easy to demonstrate that your company is a "proxy" and that becomes a "land office" case, it will be immiadetly liquidated unless you find a Thai buyer under your own terms
> 
> don't listen the usual "delusional" farangs who tell you have nothing to lose and you hold all the cards. You can never make those assumptions in Thailand. If you do, you will loose everything for sure.
> 
> If you want to have the upper hand, your only option is to get out of Thailand with your kids, with her approval.
> ...



I'm OK with 50% Custody, I think thats for for all parties ie Mum, Dad and Kids...
It's the giving away half the house I paid for that is annoying cos I doubt if it gets sold her money would go towards the kids and would run out in a few years ....

And we were never married but that sounds like its irrelevant yeh ?

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## Cliffy

I'll look that idea, that would definitely work for me !




> Put the company and house in a trust for the kids. Carry on living there, and you'll have to pay market rent, so that goes to the trust but can be used for the kids' education expenses.

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## Cliffy

We're not actually man and wife but I believe there is a court view of cohabiting for 5 or more years that will come into consideration ....
In effect after 5 years are you considered married ?





> minors have to have a legal "guardian" for holding titles, and it's usually the mother, or a lawyer
> 
> either case, can you afford to lose the property to a lawyer who can fake paperwork and organize the sale of the property without anyone knowing ?
> 
> tell the wife you will buy her share of the house (she has 50% by default for living there) and that should do it,
> 
> in the private agreement, state that you bought her share, and she will not make further claim to the house. If you go to court later over this, because of the dodgy "proxy" of the land, you will get paid the full amount by the court, instead of 50% for each, since you already paid her

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## jabir

> Put the company and house in a trust for the kids. Carry on living there, and you'll have to pay market rent, so that goes to the trust but can be used for the kids' education expenses.


This may be irrelevant or even redundant if the law has changed, but some years back I checked on the trust route and was advised that Thailand does not recognise trusts. This may have been a reference to all or only certain types of trust. Against that is a recent overheard phone chat between another lawyer and his client, in which the trust route was being discussed as a valid option.

I expect more specific info in a month or two, but meanwhile can anyone shed light on validity of Thai trusts or types of?

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## jabir

DF makes sense, if at all possible avoid the courts where your interests earn a rather low priority. 

And an agreement is better than no agreement. But what's the legal status of any agreement you sign with wifey if she later claims to have been forced or coerced or threatened or even rushed into it, and could her retraction affect other matters?

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## Cliffy

I'll check :  I think to finalize it now in courts might make me sleep easier in the future if the legal status of a mutual agreement is in doubt , meeting Farang lawyers next week....





> DF makes sense, if at all possible avoid the courts where your interests earn a rather low priority. 
> 
> And an agreement is better than no agreement. But what's the legal status of any agreement you sign with wifey if she later claims to have been forced or coerced or threatened or even rushed into it, and could her retraction affect other matters?

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## David48atTD

> in Thai court, it doesn't matter, she is your common wife, a term meaning you two are "unofficially" married and 
> carry some common responsibilities she is owed the 50% of the house if you moved in together, even if she didn't pay for it. 
> Same same as the US or Europe for married couples.
> 
> etc.  etc.


Humm ... my understanding is completely different.

Before I took the time to reply, I consulted my Thai Partner as she confirmed my thoughts.

To start ... co-inhabiting/defacto relationships is a 'Western' concept and has no bearing/relevance on your situation.

In the eyes of the Thai Law, you are not married and thus she has no claim over your house, nor personal effects.

To wit ...




> Common law marriages also referred to as a 'de facto'  marriage is basically a marriage that is not officially registered but  is recognized by law as a legal valid marriage or becomes valid after a  period of time in which a man and a woman have cohabited as husband and  wife and presented themselves to the outside world as husband and wife.  
> 
> In some countries such a 'de facto' marriage is recognized as a valid  marriage. 
> 
> The principle of a common law or de facto marriage (whether it  concerns a heterosexual or homosexual couple) is *NOT* recognized under  Thai law. 
> Marriage under the Thailand Civil and Commercial Code shall be  effected only on registration being made.
> 
>    Only registered marriages entered into the marriage register (section  1457) are recognized as legal and valid marriages in Thailand and will  create the rights, duties and responsibilities of husband and wife under  Thai family laws.


https://www.samuiforsale.com/family-...-thailand.html 

In Summary, how I see your situation ...

The children are legally 'hers' unless you have a Court Order stating differently.You say you have that, so that's sorted ... well done.
My understanding the Courts will have issued Full or Joint Custody ... is that what your document decrees? 
She has no claim over your house/investments/personal belongings, She's trying it on with the Lawyer Letter of Demand.
---

Personally, I wouldn't be going to Court as she has no basis for her claim.

Let her try and bring that action in the Thai Courts ... which she can't because she can't make her case because, under Thai Law, you were never married and Thai Law doesn't equate/elevate a defacto relationship to that status equal to being married.

I be wary of any Lawyer suggesting you contest this in Court as I'd see that as a Lawyer simply looking for fees.

I would, however, pay the Lawyer to write to her refuting her claims.

Be concerned when your children are released to their Mother for any stays.
They might just simply disappear and then be used as a bargaining chip if she realises she has no claim over your house.
That might sound cynical, however, it wouldn't be the first time it's happened in Thailand.


Good Luck with it and do inform the Forum what eventually emerges, we all learn from that.

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## david44

the new bf may view it more cost effective to erase you from the equation one way or another

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## Maanaam

Another thought; Sell the house now, before any agreement, and put the money somewhere secure like a home-country bank. It's even possible to sell with a caveat that you will remain a tenant there for xx years (of course that caveat will affect the price).

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## HuangLao

> the new bf may view it more cost effective to erase you from the equation one way or another


Especially non-valued novelty Farang.

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## PAG

Just a point re the house.   You say that it's in your Company name, is your ex partner a shareholder in the Company?   Is the Company actively trading or merely a vehicle for house purchase?

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## jabir

> Humm ... my understanding is completely different.
> 
> Before I took the time to reply, I consulted my Thai Partner as she confirmed my thoughts.
> 
> To start ... co-inhabiting/defacto relationships is a 'Western' concept and has no bearing/relevance on your situation.
> 
> In the eyes of the Thai Law, you are not married and thus she has no claim over your house, nor personal effects.
> 
> To wit ...
> ...


Farang with 6+ years live-in gf died a couple years ago, tenancy agreement in his name, landlord kicked her out within a week of the funeral because contract was in the farang's name although rent was paid 3 months up front a week or two before he died, still unclear what happened to his stuff with no next of kin but she ended up on the street with nothing.

Not sure if all or any of that was in compliance with Thai law, but wouldn't be surprised one bit if it was.

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## Cliffy

Hi David,


Many thanks for your time spent consulting and replying.


I don't have custody, I have the court issued legal document for non-married couples that confirms I am the kids father.

I'll be meeting with Farang lawyers next week, will report back on their views on the situation.

Cheers
Cliffy










> Humm ... my understanding is completely different.
> 
> Before I took the time to reply, I consulted my Thai Partner as she confirmed my thoughts.
> 
> To start ... co-inhabiting/defacto relationships is a 'Western' concept and has no bearing/relevance on your situation.
> 
> In the eyes of the Thai Law, you are not married and thus she has no claim over your house, nor personal effects.
> 
> To wit ...
> ...

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## Cliffy

Think she's more into Farangs actually !




> the new bf may view it more cost effective to erase you from the equation one way or another

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## Cliffy

The EX is not a shareholder in the Company which is just a vehicle for Land&House purchase....




> Just a point re the house.   You say that it's in your Company name, is your ex partner a shareholder in the Company?   Is the Company actively trading or merely a vehicle for house purchase?

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## Cliffy

One option I'm considering is simply transfer my shares to someone else ie brother, or friends of 40 years plus who I can trust....
And hope they dont die soon and then their wife inherits my house !




> The EX is not a shareholder in the Company which is just a vehicle for Land&House purchase....

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## PAG

> One option I'm considering is simply transfer my shares to someone else ie brother, or friends of 40 years plus who I can trust....
> And hope they dont die soon and then their wife inherits my house !


That could be the way to go, however on face value, with not being legally married, difficult to see what claim she could have at all on any of your assets, other than maintenance for your children (if she got custody).

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## Cliffy

I have read about some form of partnerships being declared by the courts when living together more than 5 years so still a but worrying ...




> That could be the way to go, however on face value, with not being legally married, difficult to see what claim she could have at all on any of your assets, other than maintenance for your children (if she got custody).

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## Dillinger

> I'm happy to pay for everything (child support, education etc etc) if she's going to take care of the kids properly, BUT I'd rather not have to sell my house and give her half which would soon be blown on a new car, iPhone X etc etc....


Wouldnt the car be used to take the kids to school? So what if she has an iphone x, its not a bank breaker if you're paying qround 30,000 GBP in International school fees for 3 kids a year. The more you give her the more your kids will get.



> It's the giving away half the house I paid for that is annoying cos I doubt if it gets sold her money would go towards the kids and would run out in a few years ....


Where are your kids and their mom going to live if you don't sell the house?

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## Mex

Good luck Cliffy.

Can you prove that you have had custody of the kids for the last 6 months?

Can you prove that you have been the main provider for the kids?

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## Cliffy

They live with me for and I take them to school, share school runs with other neighbours actually ...




> Wouldnt the car be used to take the kids to school? So what if she has an iphone x, its not a bank breaker if you're paying qround 30,000 GBP in International school fees for 3 kids a year. The more you give her the more your kids will get.
> 
> 
> Where are your kids and their mom going to live if you don't sell the house?

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## Cliffy

Thanks Mex ....

Well I guess about 50 to 500 photos a week and many Thai witnesses...
Main provider I guess would mean owning the house, paying the electric etc from my bank account oh and the school fees and Tesco Online shopping once a week...





> Good luck Cliffy.
> 
> Can you prove that you have had custody of the kids for the last 6 months?
> 
> Can you prove that you have been the main provider for the kids?

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