#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Thailand and Asia News >  >  Amnesty for Former TRT Executives?

## hillbilly

Junta Leader to Sponsor Amnesty for Former Thai Rak Thai Executives

*Council for National Security chairman says an amnesty law could provide a way for former Thai Rak Thai executives to remain in politics. 

*Speaking on the Public Relations Department's program on channel 11 last night, Council for National Security chairman Sonthi Boonyaratglin revealed that the 111 former executives from the Thai Rak Thai who recently had their political rights revoked, could still remain in political circles. 

General Sonthi said that if the CNS withdraws the Council for Democratic Reform's 15th and 27th announcements forbidding political party activities and the establishment of new political entities, the defunct TRT officials could have a chance to run in the next election. 

Sonthi believes that the lifting of the ban would allow politics to move torward reconciliation. He added that when the CNS abolishes the announcements, the government will need to propose an amnesty law and present it to the National Legislative Assembly to implement the draft into an act. 

However, the CNS chairman admitted that, ultimately, the decision rested on the prime minister and the cabinet members. 

The general insisted that allowing an amnesty law aimed to mollify the current political crisis, not bow to pressure asserted by political groups. 

The chairman revealed he has already held a preliminary discussion with the Prime Minister on the matter, and the PM agreed that he wants to see peace restored in society. General SONTHI said the timing of the enactment of an amnesty law depends on the government's and the National Legislative Assembly's procedures. 

Meanwhile, Election Commissioner Sodsri Satayathum pointed out that if the Cabinet endorses the initiative and presents it to the NLA, the act will be implemented in a month, or two months' time at the latest.

Thailand Outlook Channel

----------


## NickA

You what?

----------


## sabang

Typical Thailand.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## El Gibbon

Freaking monkey show, the whole lot of em.

What a waste of time/resources/emotions and energy.

E. G.

----------


## Thetyim

Clever move.
It will stop all revolts and demonstrations if the politicians THINK they are getting a let-off in two months time. 
He hasn't promised anything yet

----------


## lom

> It will stop all revolts and demonstrations if the politicians THINK they are getting a let-off in two months time.


Yes.




> the defunct TRT officials could have a chance to run in the next election.


Wouldn't surprise me if the amnesty gets slightly delayed, a party has to be registered 3 months before the election if it wants to participate.
I doubt that the TRT politicians will be allowed to run in the next election..

The 5 year ban has eliminated them from 2 elections, the amnesty will prolly change that to 1.

----------


## watterinja

This is one of the reasons that Thailand does not have rule-of-law. Statements like this from Sonthi are irresponsible & weaken the position of the Courts. I'm beginning to tire of this Sonthi's recent number of rash statements - his dark side has begun to emerge. The folks would do well to kick him out in the not-too-distant future, before he starts with his own career aspirations.

This place goes round in circles & history keeps on repeating itself - since 1932.

----------


## Dougal

> Should Gen Sonthi be allowed to have his way to pardon "The Thai Rak Thai 111," months of the tribunal's deliberation of the historic case, condensed into 10 hours of verdict reading, would amount to a total waste.
> When Council for National Security commander Sonthi Boonyaratkalin floated the idea of seeking amnesty for the banned executives of the now-defunct Thai Rak Thai party, many were left scratching their heads and wondering about the real intentions of the top brass.
> 
> The idea was obviously ill-timed and ill-conceived and top brass are inviting trouble by defending the idea as a reconciliatory move. So what was running through Gen Sonthi's mind when he was struck with the idea of a pardon?
> 
> Where is the sanctity of the Constitution Tribunal's verdict and respect for the institution entrusted to deliver justice so lacking in today's free-wheeling politics? 
> 
> It does not appear to make an ounce of sense to defend the idea as a reconciliatory move either. It should be a matter of letting justice take its course and making the wrongdoers face the consequences. 
> 
> ...


An un-named source suggesting an un-named individual initiated the move????

So many agendas.

----------


## watterinja

The saga of the Banana Fifedom continues... (sigh)

----------


## sabang

Actually I am not that critical of it- uphold the rule of law, preserving the face of the Courts, the Gov't and even the King.
Then commit a predesignated 'benign act' behind the scenes to preserve harmony, and display benevolence. The Thai/Buddhist Principle of Harmony in action.
Of course, under our very literal western interpretation of the rule of law, it sucks. But this ain't the West, and neither does it want to be.

----------


## watterinja

Precisely why this place will continue to be a mess for the next foreseeable future - it obviously doesn't work - despite all the religious smokescreens.

----------


## DrB0b

*Suggestion 'not mine'; Suriyasai says it'd be like opening the jail* 

Two days after his surprise call for an amnesty for Thai Rak Thai executives strip-ped of their electoral rights, General Sonthi Boonyaratglin yesterday insisted it was not his idea.

"This idea came from outsiders. In fact the Council for National Security (CNS) chairman has no knowledge about it," said Sonthi.
The CNS chairman's apparent retraction came after a lukewarm response from Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont and uproar from supporters of last Wednesday's Constitution Tribunal decision.
That dissolved the former governing party and slapped a five-year electoral-process ban on its 111 executives.
"It's not unusual for some National Legislative Assembly members to be opposed to it, but we can say this idea originated from the NLA," Sonthi said without elaborating. 
"For the CNS, this matter is already over," when asked if the junta would follow up the call for a pardon.
He said the CNS made only a proposal and was unsure who had the final say in the matter.

In a television interview on Friday night, Sonthi suggested amnesty for the disbanded party's executives. "If anything at all it's probably a question of whether all 111 executives really committed wrongdoing and whether they're all guilty," he said.

Sonthi explained yesterday he agreed to the amnesty idea on grounds many of the executives were clearly unaware of the offences cited in the electoral-fraud charges.

He added, however, that those to be pardoned should not include Thaksin Shinawatra, the former party leader and ex-prime minister overthrown in last September's coup led by Sonthi.
Of the 111 politicians affected by the ban, there are many who have left Thai Rak Thai since the coup. They are viewed as the potential political face of the CNS in the next House of Representatives, or even the next government.

Observers said the proposal to waive the five-year ban for selected Thai Rak Thai executives has strengthened the view of those who see the case as designed to politically emasculate the popular Thaksin.
"You can't have your cake and eat it. Are these people guilty or not? If you don't think they are guilty why arrange for the long and costly exercise?" Suriyasai Katasila, secretary-general of the Campaign for Popular Democracy, said.

Suriyasai yesterday expressed opposition to any amnesty.
He said although it was an act of social reconciliation, amnesty was like "opening the jail door for the inmates". The matter should be considered carefully, he said.

The CNS chief denied any interference with state agencies, in a response to perceptions decisions and moves by those organisations appear to be in line with the stance of the junta.

Meanwhile, Thai Rak Thai politicians yesterday said they would not accept amnesty if it were not clearly stated the punishment had been applied retroactively.

"I won't accept amnesty and I won't bow my head to dictatorship," said Adisorn Piengket, one of the former executives facing the ban.

The Nation

----------


## sabang

Just a guess, the amnesty will happen a few months down the track, for most of them anyway. Now is the posturing phase. We'll see. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Dougal

Well the target was Thaksin, no point in throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I suspect there is some manoeuvering behind the scenes between the old guard and the new money businessmen.

Maybe the old elite would like to go back the status quo of lots of small parties bickering and horse trading and taking the country no where. While perhaps the rising business elite have seen that while Thaksin personally was a liability, the principle of having a single government party to deal with made it easier to get things done and get on with the business of getting richer.

I just don't see the Democrats stepping into TRT's shoes.

All IMHO of course and two glasses of wine down.

----------


## DaffyDuck

Amnesty not applicable to Thaksin: Defence Minister
By The Nation

Defence Minister Prawit Wongsuwan on Tuesday voiced support for the idea of granting amnesty for political offences although this should exclude the litigation involving ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra.

"Thaksin's legal wrangling is about criminal wrongdoing and should not be covered by the amnesty," he said.

The details of the amnesty will be vetted by Parliament which will, in turn, heed the public opinion on the issue, he said.

He said the government was trying to lift the state of emergency as soon as possible.

----------


## DaffyDuck

One by one, the gov't checks off the olive branches they had previously extended - I suspect the RTP will come next, stripping Thaksin of his police rank, for sure.

Oh, but I guess in his various supporters' views around here, Thaksin's scored major victories, or something...

----------


## gjbkk

^
Are you so lonely and thick that you find it necessary to answer your own posts with ignorant and uneducated garbage?

----------


## thehighlander959

^^
Daffy I think you need to wake up and smell the roses!! I dont see many people on here that really support Mr. Thaksin, However there are people who would like to see a real democratic system in place and by that I mean everyone votes and the party with the most votes wins the election. 
And gets to form the government of the day. Until the next election.
*This has not happened in Thailand this time as the government has been formed by the party who lost the last election*
This may be beyond some peoples comprehension this is how democracy should work in Thailand. I believe that this is the reason the reds are so upset a lot of them could not give a flying f*ck about Thaksin and his money.

----------


## matsalleh

> ^
> Are you so lonely and thick that you find it necessary to answer your own posts with ignorant and uneducated garbage?



And of course - its only you among all - has to comment on that? Do tell us, are you secretly in love with your hero, da man Taksin? Have to protect his (lost) reputation?
I really feel kind of sorry for you!
 :smiley laughing:   :smiley laughing:   :smiley laughing:

----------


## gjbkk

^

People are born ignorant, not stupid. you must be the exception

----------


## The Gentleman Scamp

Blimey gj, you're on top form tonight.  :Smile:

----------


## robuzo

> ^
> 
> People are born ignorant, not stupid. you must be the exception


I tend to see it the Japanese way- as they say, "There's no cure for stupid."

I'm afraid that the political discourse amongst the Thais could be a facile as what one tends to find here- if you oppose the feudal patronage system and blatant social injustice in Thailand, why, you must be pro-Thaksin!  The problem being, of course, that by nature Thaksin can't help but try to exploit the current situation, because he is what he is.

Thaksin obviously will never be able to become PM again, the very idea of that happening being sufficient to tear the country apart.  I think I have a better idea for a productive, positive role for ol' Squareface, and have adopted a slogan that I think sums it up nicely: Thaksin For Martyr!  Go stand by a window, Meow, or tour the southern provinces in a convertible.  You'll get the kind of fame and adoration that money just can't buy!

----------


## Mid

^^

seconded  :Smile:

----------


## Whiteshiva

> ^^
> Daffy I think you need to wake up and smell the roses!! I dont see many people on here that really support Mr. Thaksin, However there are people who would like to see a real democratic system in place and by that I mean everyone votes and the party with the most votes wins the election. 
> And gets to form the government of the day. Until the next election.
> *This has not happened in Thailand this time as the government has been formed by the party who lost the last election*
> This may be beyond some peoples comprehension this is how democracy should work in Thailand. I believe that this is the reason the reds are so upset a lot of them could not give a flying f*ck about Thaksin and his money.


No party got more than 50% of the votes in the 2007 election. In term of votes cast, PPP managed to beat the democrats by a very small margin. PPP joined forces with some of the other parties to gain a full majority in the house, some of these parties later defected to the democrats, and their coalition now has a majority.

So what exacly is the problem?

----------


## DrB0b

^The problem is not mainly one of coalitions nor of deputies switching sides, the problem is that the dissolution of parties under new rules promulgated by a militarily drafted constitution (to which the only alternative available under the referendum was an utter unknown) led to what many people saw as the replacement of the policies (in a democracy there is an important distinction to be made between voting for policies and voting for individuals) they voted for with the policies of a party and a clique they had not voted for. By your own numbers above almost 50% of the electorate were effectively disenfranchised. 

There is also the very important, though very rarely spoken, point that under the succession laws the next ruler will be appointed by parliament unless specifically named by the current ruler (which is why we are unlikely to see another election until after the upcoming expected event). Many of the electorate felt both that their government had been stolen from them and that their government had been replaced with a group whose main function was to cement the rule of an oligarchy for the next 30 or so years and many were/are justifiably angry at this. There is also anger over the lack of accountability regarding exactly why and in what manner some politicians switched sides.

----------


## SteveCM

> In short i am not sure how any country can be labelled a  democracy with such an open electoral fraudulent system which i might  add is contrary to their own laws.


Plainly, democracy in  Thailand is a work in progress - anything but a mature democracy. It  follows that if you're going to compare it with other democracies e.g.  the UK, you need to go back to the time when they themselves were less  than mature. In the UK's case, the 19th century is far enough - before  or even between the Reform Acts; if the reason for that's unclear to  you, research the terms "pocket boroughs" and "rotten boroughs"; in that  connection looks also at when property ownership ceased to be a  requirement for voting eligibility - and, later than that, look at when  women got the vote.

It's acknowledged that Joe Kennedy bought the  1960 US presidential for son Jack - Daley's Chicago "machine",  Giancana's "influence" and West Virginia's for-hire officials  being just the more well-known factors in producing the very close result. More  recently, both of George W. Bush's elections have a smell to them: 2000 - a  combination of denying voter eligibility/machines not working in  solidly Democratic wards and "hanging chads"..... rounded off with a  "selection" by a pre-dominantly Republican-appointed Supreme Court; 2004  - some very curious goings-on in Ohio..... without whose 20 electoral votes, Bush  would have lost to Kerry.

Of course, the US examples occurred in a system that's widely held to include  about the best "separation of powers" model there is - a model that  Thailand is _many_ years away from achieving. 

Still feel quite so sanguine about "mature" democracies - let alone the stage that Thailand's version has reached?




> What i fail to understand is how farangs from democracy in action  countries could possibly have such strong beliefs, that as long as their favourite side wins then it matters not how they won.


If you're talking about TD, that's not something I've seen here. Care to  point the finger? Putting things in a sensibly realistic and valid  context is _not_ the same as _"it matters not how they won"._




> It is often said that if you set yourself low standards at election time then without doubt you will get the politician(s) you deserve.


A valid point. Contrariwise, those standards need to be realistic for the environment. Almost any poll observation report you examine (have you examined one?) includes a "relative" qualification - to the effect of "despite XYZ, overall and by the standards of such elections here, this one was.....". _That's_ realistic. The alternative is to say "Well, not as clean and proper as elections in Perfectland - so, not worth having". To state the obvious, societies really _do_ have to go through shades of grey to get from black to even near-white. And, yes, sometimes the grey gets darker on the bumpy way to getting lighter. That's not a reason for giving up and staying with black.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by Mr Lick
> 
>  On the subject of free speech, it was alive and kicking i believe in Bangkok last year and has continued to be seen in action since.
> 
> 
> Really?
> 
> Where did this come from then?
> 
> ...


Yeah, nothing like it. Thaksin would never stoop to such things...

Oh....

Asia Pacific Arts: THAILAND: Thaksin, Plodprasop file lese majeste suits against Sondhi

*THAILAND: Thaksin, Plodprasop file lese majeste suits against Sondhi*

_More libel and lese majeste suits erupt against publisher Sondhi, newspaper_

_Bangkok Post
Wednesday, April 5, 2006_

_More libel and lese majeste suits resulting from the anti-Thaksin  protests were directed at publisher Sondhi Limthongkul yesterday,  notably one from Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra himself. The prime  minister felt the need to defend his name after Mr Sondhi allegedly  slandered him during the anti-Thaksin rallies organised by the People's  Alliance for Democracy (PAD), said his lawyer Chatri Tharipapassaro._

_Mr Sondhi, a core leader of PAD, was also targeted for a lese majeste  charge filed by Plodprasop Suraswadi, assistant to the caretaker  natural resources minister._
_
<snip>

__Mr Plodprasop led some Natural Resources and Environment Ministry  officials to file lese majeste charges against Mr Sondhi with the Royal  Thai Police via its deputy secretary Pol Col Wiwatchai Thanadnangsue._

_Mr Plodprasop presented as evidence a tape cassette and a compact disc recording the alleged lese majeste comments.


_

----------


## Mid

^

FFS are you telling us that because T did it it's ok for the Dems ?

and if not just wtf is your point ?

----------


## Rural Surin

> Neraly a quarter of a miilion websites have been blocked, over 300 people jailed (with more awaiting trial) for expressing their opinions, magazines, newspapers, radio stations and TV stations have been closed down. All since the coup. There was nothing remotely comparable in the two decades before. Is this your idea of free speech?


Well directed, Bob. One would truly have to be blind or out of the loop to have not savvied-up to these factual activities. Two decades? Perhaps it goes back farther than this offering. Some might suggest that a contemporary Thailand has struggled with [open, free, and progressive] press, literature, journalism, the arts and info sources from the inception of the state....less, before the creating of the false secular state. 

I'm believing that some might consider a translation of free speech, in which the state mouth-pieces and portals have the allowance to run free, giving the impression that there might be diversity and alternatives within the press circle.

----------


## Rural Surin

> ^
> 
> FFS are you telling us that because T did it it's ok for the Dems ?
> 
> and if not just wtf is your point ?


Colours of subjectivity? :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Butterfly

> Neraly a quarter of a miilion websites have been blocked,


small players  :mid: 

BBC News - China: 1.3 million websites shut in 2010

----------


## Rural Surin

> Originally Posted by DrB0b
> 
> Neraly a quarter of a miilion websites have been blocked,
> 
> 
> small players 
> 
> BBC News - China: 1.3 million websites shut in 2010


So what's the logic and reasoning behind this comparative?

----------


## crippen

^ Thailand is not as bad as China??? :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Butterfly

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by DrB0b
> ...


the logic is that all Asian countries are fascist little shithole because that's what their population want,

----------


## baldrick

> fascist little shithole


butters has a fascination with asian fascist little sh1tholes - apparently  :Very Happy:

----------


## Rural Surin

> Originally Posted by Rural Surin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Butterfly
> ...


....seems to be of your liking and preferred choice, as well. :Smile:

----------


## Butterfly

> ....seems to be of your liking and preferred choice, as well.


only if it has a communist ideology, yes  :Smile:

----------


## DroversDog

> Originally Posted by Rural Surin
> 
> ....seems to be of your liking and preferred choice, as well.
> 
> 
> only if it has a communist ideology, yes


Laos is only a bus ride away  :Smile:

----------


## StrontiumDog

Thaksin could accept brief imprisonment in his reconciliation plan : National News Bureau of Thailand

*Thaksin could accept brief imprisonment in his reconciliation plan  *  

BANGKOK, 17 July 2011  (NNT)- Democrat Party MP Attaporn Ponlaboot explained that even though  the red shirt activist had prepared a compelling case against the  election commission during the investigation of election’s result, he  believed that the red shirt political group will not make a move since  some of the group’s mainstay and fugitive former premier Thaksin  Shinawatra appeared to be emphasizing on reconciliation plan, this  however had disappointed part of the red shirt activists.  

Mr.Attaporn elaborated that the methods of Thaksin’s reconciliation plan  might have undergone a discussion with every department, with an  intention to return to the country without an amnesty but a month or 15  days of imprisonment to whitewash the faults so that Thaksin Shinawatra  will be able to join politics once again. However, if the reconciliation  method’s of Thaksin Shinawatra is as assumed, Democrat party will have  no rights to interfere with decisions made but it is strongly believed  that the politics in the country would experience more unrest.

----------


## tomta

> Thaksin could accept brief imprisonment in his reconciliation plan  BANGKOK, 17 July 2011 (NNT)- Democrat Party MP Attaporn Ponlaboot explained that even though the red shirt activist had prepared a compelling case against the election commission during the investigation of election’s result, he believed that the red shirt political group will not make a move since some of the group’s mainstay and fugitive former premier Thaksin Shinawatra appeared to be emphasizing on reconciliation plan, this however had disappointed part of the red shirt activists.  Mr.Attaporn elaborated that the methods of Thaksin’s reconciliation plan might have undergone a discussion with every department, with an intention to return to the country without an amnesty but a month or 15 days of imprisonment to whitewash the faults so that Thaksin Shinawatra will be able to join politics once again. However, if the reconciliation method’s of Thaksin Shinawatra is as assumed, Democrat party will have no rights to interfere with decisions made but it is strongly believed that the politics in the country would experience more unrest.


Did anyone understand any of this?

----------


## SteveCM

^
I certainly didn't. One Dem MP "thinking" (I'm being polite) aloud and the result duly processed by the ongoing caretaker government's PR Dept - home of the impressive-sounding _"National News Bureau of Thailand"_. I assume that must be _"News"_ in the loosest possible understanding of the term.....

----------


## LooseBowels

Now that democracy has been restored, and the rightful government returned to power , and the junta appointed imposters run out of town, impartiallity must be ingrained in the judiciary and electoral system, and the army dissolved, and properly reformed.

All the voters knew of thailands issues, and they rejected the status quo, because they wanted the murderous proxy junta government to get its dues, and also to have a chance of the impartial institutions, which only the democratic PT, and its visionary, enlightened, elected leader can give.

You can't argue with that   :Smile:

----------


## anotherpete

> Now that democracy has been restored, and the rightful government returned to power , and the junta appointed imposters run out of town, impartiallity must be ingrained in the judiciary and electoral system, and the army dissolved, and properly reformed.
> 
> All the voters knew of thailands issues, and they rejected the status quo, because they wanted the murderous proxy junta government to get its dues, and also to have a chance of the impartial institutions, which only the democratic PT, and its visionary, enlightened, elected leader can give.
> 
> You can't argue with that


You could easily argue with that.  You might have missed the election in 2007 that the junta appointed government called.  Since then only elected MPs have been in the government.

Only 48% voted for PTP in this election.

----------


## Pol the Pot

Were they the biggest party after that?

----------


## anotherpete

> Were they the biggest party after that?


Yes. The 48% of the vote gave them 53% of the seats.  A massive landslide  :mid: .  All the Thai people have spoken ... but less than half of them want PTP.

----------


## Bobcock

Me thinks anotherpete is about to be labelled a landslide loser by the usual red suspects.....

----------


## Scaramanga

> You might have missed the election in 2007 that the junta appointed government called. *Since then only elected MPs have been in the government*.


Elected MPs like Suthep Thaugsuban  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## sabang

> Yes. The 48% of the vote gave them 53% of the seats. A massive landslide


Indeed it was- only the second time an absolute majority has been won in Thai history. The other time was by big brother of course. There is just plain no Spinning this- the Dem's were trounced, decisively rejected by the Thai people.

Incidentally, the popular vote in Bangkok was virtually identical for PT & the Dem's- but the Dem's won some 23 seats to PT's ten. So I hope you are not suggesting that PT benefitted from any sort of Gerrymandering, because the opposite is true.

----------


## Scaramanga

> Incidentally, the popular vote in Bangkok was virtually identical for PT & the Dem's- but the Dem's won some 23 seats to PT's ten.


Official Results Bangkok: Democrats won 23 seats vs 10 for Puea Thai, 9 seats were won by less than 3,000 votes and another 12 seats by between 3,001-6,000 votes.

Democrats down on 2008 results

----------


## Scaramanga

> All the Thai people have spoken ... but less than half of them want PTP.


 :rofl: 


The two pictures tell a slightly different story

----------


## anotherpete

> Originally Posted by anotherpete
> 
> You might have missed the election in 2007 that the junta appointed government called. *Since then only elected MPs have been in the government*.
> 
> 
> Elected MPs like Suthep Thaugsuban


He was eventually ......

OK, besides non-MP ministers appointed by the elected PM.  The PPP had their fair share on non-elected ministers.

----------


## anotherpete

> Originally Posted by anotherpete
> 
>  All the Thai people have spoken ... but less than half of them want PTP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The two pictures tell a slightly different story


Yes, it shows that it's unsafe for some politicians to campaign in some areas.  That's great for democracy, isn't it?

----------


## sabang

> Yes, it shows that it's unsafe for some politicians to campaign in some areas.


I guess.  :mid:

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ Just for fun...







Easy to create an image isn't it....

----------


## Scaramanga

> Yes, it shows that it's unsafe for some politicians to campaign in some areas. That's great for democracy, isn't it?


Please explain

Do you mean those few people, who show up where Abhisit Vejjajiva, Chuan Leekpai and Suthep Thaugsuban were campaigning, to hold up signs asking for an account of the dead in April and May 2010, or the brazen gunning down in Bangkok of a Phum Jai Thai Party canvasser from Lopburi, the shootings at Samut Prakarn or Thai soldiers intimidating opposition activists ahead of a general election






> ^ Just for fun...





> Easy to create an image isn't it....



Common SD we all know where your "loyalties lies"


Those photos of Abhisit do look so staged in comparison to what I posted and the lower one looks so falls. 

Face the facts SD, Abhisit has never looked comfortable mingling with the masses and voters also saw through the dirty campaign of the Military backed Democrat Party with their drab posters and fascist propaganda

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ Don't disagree, Abhisit looked very uncomfortable mixing with the masses. Sure. He isn't one of them and doesn't exactly hang out with the common folk. 

Which is odd as Yingluck has about as much in common with the normal good people of Thailand, as Abhisit does. I guess she's just better at it....image is after all everything. Some even believe it....

As regards where my loyalty lies...see my reply in another thread today. Also, may I suggest you get a clue sometime...it would be a refreshing change. Your inability to interpret my intent and thinking is alarming.

----------


## Butterfly

> Easy to create an image isn't it....


sab and friends are all about images, when words are missing in a political campaign, he and his friends are very much satisfied with powerful images, like the retard voters who voted for PT

----------


## Takeovers

> As regards where my loyalty lies...


Yes it is obvious.




> I think it is great that normal people could sue  their government for the lies they spew to get elected. Real democracy  (and accountability) in action and hopefully such things would force  governments to be more realistic when it comes to their promises.


Sickening that a Farang takes that stand on Democracy and makes a mockery out of the process.

I don't say it is wise to promise too much, but unfortunately that happens all over the world and the only legitimate judge of it will be the people in the next election.

----------


## Scaramanga

> As regards where my loyalty lies...see my reply in another thread today. Also, may I suggest you get a clue sometime...it would be a refreshing change. Your inability to interpret my intent and thinking is alarming.



Point is SD, I did interpret your post correctly and the subliminal intent in putting forward Abhisit as a “likable sort”.

I have often read in your posts and I accept that you do on times admire Abhisit. I have no problems in accepting that but it seems you have. 

 :Smile: 






> sab and friends are all about images, when words are missing in a political campaign, he and his friends are very much satisfied with powerful images, like the retard voters who voted for PT


How can anyone take a sexpat seriously?  :Smile:

----------


## Butterfly

> Sickening that a Farang takes that stand on Democracy and makes a mockery out of the process.


hahaha, wouldn't that describe you and our other red supporters here ?  :rofl:

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> As regards where my loyalty lies...
> 
> 
> Yes it is obvious.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm confused...

How can holding politicians accountable for their promises/actions being anti-democratic?

You've criticised me for saying I think all politicians should be held accountable and that normal people should be allowed to take them to task for their failed promises. That is democracy. Normal people challenging their elected representatives for their failures.

----------


## Butterfly

> How can anyone take a sexpat seriously?


how can anyone take seriously another TEFLer farang keenok ?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Scaramanga

> how can anyone take seriously another TEFLer farang keenok ?



No idea mate I'm neither one nor the other

ni l'un ni l'autre

----------


## Takeovers

> I'm confused...


Yes

I have stated in my post that parties and governments are responsible for their promises. The process is the next election, nothing else.

Your statement was however




> I think it is great that normal people could sue  their government for the lies they spew to get elected.


Sue a party for election promises in a country where the judiciary is as severely flawed as in Thailand? Only your blinding hate of Thaksin can make you make that statement. You completely lose common sense and reason here.

Besides you take your spin into the statement again by calling overblown campaign promises lies.

Edit: I want to add also that suing a party for election promises would be ridiculous even if the country has a fair and unbiased judiciary. It just cannot work, how to phrase a law for that?

----------


## anotherpete

> Besides you take your spin into the statement again by calling overblown campaign promises lies.


The problem isn't that their campaign promises were overblown, it's that they have back tracked on so many of them.

----------


## Takeovers

> The problem isn't that their campaign promises were overblown, it's that they have back tracked on so many of them.


Again, leave that to the electorate to decide in four years. It is up to them if they are satisfied on the package as a whole, not some single items. In the meantime you can jump high and low and I will think only "sour grapes".

----------


## anotherpete

> Originally Posted by anotherpete
> 
> The problem isn't that their campaign promises were overblown, it's that they have back tracked on so many of them.
> 
> 
> Again, leave that to the electorate to decide in four years. It is up to them if they are satisfied on the package as a whole, not some single items. In the meantime you can jump high and low and I will think only "sour grapes".


I don't think PTP should be disbanded for that, but surely democracy is being allowed to complain about it.  The PTP got elected partly because of policies that they no longer plan to implement.  That shouldn't be given a free ride just because "the people voted for them".

----------


## Bobcock

> The problem isn't that their campaign promises were overblown, it's that they have back tracked on so many of them.


How can they be said to have back-tracked on anything???

Last I looked a new Government hadn't even been sworn in.

As for disbanding a party for failing to live up to election politicies....hahahah....what a joke, there'd hardly be a Government or party left in the world if this ridiculous law existed anywhere else in the democratic world.

You really can't make this stuff up. let them govern and lets see where their relationship stands with the electorate in 4 years time.

Simple really........ (still can't see it happening with 'third hand influence' though)

----------


## anotherpete

> Originally Posted by anotherpete
> 
> The problem isn't that their campaign promises were overblown, it's that they have back tracked on so many of them.
> 
> 
> How can they be said to have back-tracked on anything???
> 
> Last I looked a new Government hadn't even been sworn in.


In their campaign speeches and all their advertising they said "300 baht minimum wage nationwide by the start of next year" and since the election they have said "it won't apply in all provinces and it will take a year" 

That is back tracking, and, you're right, they haven't even been sworn in yet.  And that's only one of a number of promises that they have already back tracked on since the election.

----------


## Mid

> How can they be said to have back-tracked on anything???  
> 
> Last I looked a new Government hadn't even been sworn in.


a fact that seems to escape some  :mid:

----------


## Bobcock

> That is back tracking, and, you're right, they haven't even been sworn in yet.


So who is saying that?....the unnamed unsworn in Minister responsible?

I suggest they get in there first and lets see what really happens, surely you've been here long enough to know to take most of what is written at this time with a pinch of salt, half the time i see a quote about what will happen it seems to come from a Democrat.

Don't get me wrong, like all governments this lot will achieve little and fill their own pots, but the people think they are democratic so let them have the government they chose.

----------


## Butterfly

the sooner Y is sworn in, the better

----------


## Rural Surin

> the sooner Y is sworn in, the better


...and the "changes" that might be in the offing?
Or will it appear to be one and the same?

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> I'm confused...
> 
> 
> Yes
> 
> I have stated in my post that parties and governments are responsible for their promises. The process is the next election, nothing else.
> 
> ...


I take your point on the biased judiciary, but that should change soon enough when Yingluck/Thaksin get their people in....so biased but with a whole new set of people...then we will see what happens (if history is repeated then the judiciary under Thaksin/Yingluck will be just as biased as under the Dem's, working for the governments interests only). 

However, I think you've missed the point of my post. I believe in power being with the people. The government should be answerable to the people who elected them. If the electorate and not other political parties (who have dubious intent) are the ones suing the government, I think it is difficult to argue against it. 

4 years is too long to wait for a change of government if the government of the day is bad, a lot of damage can be done (just ask the American's...look at the massive damage George W Bush did). It is the people of the country who should be taking on the government. The goverment works for the people (not the other way around).

A criticism of Abhisit and his cadre is that they didn't listen to the people (and his government should have resigned after May 2010). If Pheu Thai make the same mistakes, they should suffer the consequences. A government that fails its electorate should either resign or be taken to task for their failings by those who elected them. 

That is a better democracy. The power with the people.

----------


## LooseBowels

> Originally Posted by sabang
> 
> Incidentally, the popular vote in Bangkok was virtually identical for PT & the Dem's- but the Dem's won some 23 seats to PT's ten.
> 
> 
> Official Results Bangkok: Democrats won 23 seats vs 10 for Puea Thai, 9 seats were won by less than 3,000 votes and another 12 seats by between 3,001-6,000 votes.
> 
> Democrats down on 2008 results


Me suspects some PAD yellow dem junta fiddle here   :Smile:

----------


## LooseBowels

> A criticism of Abhisit and his cadre is that they didn't listen to the people (and his government should have resigned after May 2010


But the accusation is that they, along with their patrons, murdered the people.

Its ok, abisit has to live with that, it'll do for him   :Smile:

----------


## noelbino

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> A criticism of Abhisit and his cadre is that they didn't listen to the people (and his government should have resigned after May 2010
> 
> 
> But the accusation is that they, along with their patrons, murdered the people.
> 
> Its ok, abisit has to live with that, it'll do for him


So Thaksin and his cronies are therefore murders?
Can you live with that?

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Thaksin rules out serving jail term
*
*Thaksin rules out serving jail term*

                            By The Nation
                                             Published on July 19, 2011                


*In his latest interview, former prime minister  Thaksin Shinawatra has ruled out serving jail term, saying he will have  to "stand for justice" by not accepting 'unfair' legal action against  him.*

                                                            Speaking to Thai PBS in a special interview aired  Monday night, Thaksin said he was not fighting for himself but for the  justice system as a whole.

"I stand for justice," Thaksin said, using the English words in his Thai-language interview.

He  said he could not accept the two-year jail term against him because he  regarded that case was unfair for him from the beginning.

The  Supreme Court's Criminal Division for Holders of Political Office ruled  that Thaksin had abused his authority to help his ex-wife, Kunying  Pojaman na Pomphet, buy a Ratchadapisek land prom.

"The case was  not fair from the beginning," Thaksin said. "They made my political  opponents the investigators against me. And the investigative panel was  set up with an order by the coup makers, who toppled me."

Thaksin said he had actually been punished by having to live in exile for over five years.

When  the interviewer asked him about what he thought his mistakes during his  two terms as the prime minister, Thaksin apologised to Muslims in the  southern border provinces for having using violence in dealing with  violence in the deep South.

"When we are in power for a long time, sometimes we may use power too much," Thaksin said.

He said he was sorry for having resorted to violence in his attempts to return peace to the region.

During the interview, Thaksin mostly focused on the reconciliation.

He  said he would follow the example of former rebel leader and former  South Africa President Nelson Mandela to use sports as a tool to bring  about reconciliation and unity in Thailand.

Thaksin said Mandela  used rugby as a sport to reunite the nation but he would use the  campaign to push Thai national football team as a campaign to create  unity in the country.

Thaksin said he, as a victim, would be the one to start reconciliation.

He said he has already forgiven his political enemies.

When  the interviewer asked him how could he have forgotten his enemies after  they had done so much against him, Thaksin replied that he has learnt  the way of detachment.

"Life is so short so why should we remain angry against each other," Thaksin said.

He said he was ready to show he had forgiven his enemies by inviting all of his enemies to have coffee with him in Dubai.

"I'll pay for their coffee. Let them meet me here," Thaksin said.

He  said he was ready to meet both former Army chief Gen Sonthi  Boonyaratglin and People's Alliance for Democracy co-leader Sondhi  Limthongkul for a coffer session in Dubai.

He denied that Sondhi had already met him or talked to him over the phone.

----------


## LooseBowels

> Thaksin rules out serving jail term


Quite correct.  :Smile: 

How can you serve a sentance issued by an appointed, tampered, undemocratic, illegitimate, junta court , for a ghost crime invented by the junta?

----------


## Butterfly

> Thaksin said he had actually been punished by having to live in exile for over five years.


 :rofl:

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ Indeed, seeing as it was Thaksin who decided to leave...."self-imposed exile".

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Pheu Thai MPs to attend Thaksin's birthday party in Bali
*
*Pheu Thai MPs to attend Thaksin's birthday party in Bali*

                                             Published on July 20, 2011                 

                                                            A group of Pheu Thai MPs will on July 26 attend the birthday party of ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra in Bali, Indonesia.

Pheu Thai deputy leader Plodprasop Suraswadi said the planned trip was private without linkage to the party.

The Nation

----------


## Butterfly

> Pheu Thai deputy leader Plodprasop Suraswadi said the planned trip was private without linkage to the party.


of course not  :Smile:

----------


## noelbino

> *Thaksin rules out serving jail term
> *
> *Thaksin rules out serving jail term*
> 
>                             By The Nation
>                                              Published on July 19, 2011                
> 
> 
> *In his latest interview, former prime minister  Thaksin Shinawatra has ruled out serving jail term, saying he will have  to "stand for justice" by not accepting 'unfair' legal action against  him.*
> ...


This guy gets more demented as he ages.
Ask the Muslims to forgive me for using violence against them
Did he ever ask the families those soldiers killed on the raid on the army barracks where volumes of arms and ammunition were stolen to forgive him for saying they deserved to die?
Did he ask forgiveness from the families and relatives of the 2.500 killed in the drug war??
NO, he's a self preserving prick who cares only for himself.

----------


## Butterfly

he only feels sorry because he got caught,

of course he doesn't feel responsible for the 91 he killed with his millionaire revolution last may,

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ He only feels sorry because it is convenient for now...and certain, rather gullible people will believe it.  :Smile:

----------


## LooseBowels

^,  ^^, ^^^ 3 monkey arses   hear non, see non, speak non   :Smile: 

Well up to now it worked for "live fire zones" abi   :Smile:

----------


## anotherpete

> ^,  ^^, ^^^ 3 monkey arses   hear non, see non, speak non  
> 
> Well up to now it worked for "live fire zones" abi


You're simply pathetic.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Bangkok Post : Jakarta alerted to Thaksin's Bali trip
*
*Jakarta alerted to Thaksin's Bali trip*
Published: 21/07/2011 at 12:00 AMNewspaper section: News
 Indonesia will be asked to keep an eye out for  deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra following reports he plans to  hold his birthday celebrations on Bali next week, a source said.

 The Foreign Ministry would ask its counterpart in Indonesia to help.  But the source conceded it would be difficult to track down Thaksin as  he is known to slip into a country without creating an official record.

 The ousted prime minister turns 62 on July 26 and reportedly plans to  celebrate with family and friends on the Indonesian resort island.

 There is speculation that a number of Thai MPs may travel to meet him this weekend to discuss the allocation of cabinet seats.

 Thailand has been trying to extradite the ousted prime minister to  serve a sentence of two years in prison as a result of the Ratchada land  case. It regularly asks foreign countries which Thaksin is thought to  visit for help in tracking his movements.

 Noppadon Pattama, Thaksin's close aide and legal adviser, yesterday  denied the report that Thaksin planned a birthday party on Bali. He said  the former premier would be spending time alone with his children  outside Asia.

----------


## Pol the Pot

> This guy gets more demented as he ages.
> Ask the Muslims to forgive me for using violence against them
> Did he ever ask the families those soldiers killed on the raid on the army barracks where volumes of arms and ammunition were stolen to forgive him for saying they deserved to die?
> Did he ask forgiveness from the families and relatives of the 2.500 killed in the drug war??
> NO, he's a self preserving prick who cares only for himself.


How do you know he didn't?

He cares for his family, his country and his party. And he'll get a second chance now.

 :bananaman:  :bananaman:  :bananaman:

----------


## Butterfly

> ^ He only feels sorry because it is convenient for now...and certain, rather gullible people will believe it.


and he would do it all over again if given the opportunity,

you can tell he is not sincere, as usual

----------


## StrontiumDog

Col Sansern unconcerned over future career : National News Bureau of Thailand

*Col Sansern unconcerned over future career      *  

 

BANGKOK,  21 July 2011 (NNT) – Army Spokesperson Colonel Sansern Kaewkamnerd has  shrugged off concerns over his future career path in the military after  the Pheu Thai Party becomes a government. 

Colonel Sansern stated that he has no fear about his future because so  far he has been completely working as a military officer, as the army  spokesperson and the spokesperson of the Centre for the Resolution of  Emergency Situation (CRES). 

The spokesperson admitted that the United Front of Democracy Against  Dictatorship (UDD) and its supporters might not be happy with his  operation as the CRES spokesperson. In that position, he said, he just  made press briefings as he was assigned and he believed that the public  would understand his duties. 

Colonel Sansern noted that he does not want to please anyone. As for his  transfer, he uttered that he is just a colonel and he has no concerns  over the issue because so far he has no personal conflicts with anyone  while his duties are just to follow orders given by his superiors.

----------


## Bettyboo

> while his duties are just to follow orders given by his superiors...
> 
> ...the army spokesperson and the spokesperson of the Centre for the Resolution of Emergency Situation (CRES).


 





> the public would understand


Yep, I think they understand very well...

----------


## Gerbil

> But the source conceded it would be difficult to track down Thaksin as he is known to slip into a country without creating an official record.


WTF?  :Sad:

----------


## Bettyboo

^ ahhh, 'the source'...

----------


## noelbino

> Originally Posted by noelbino
> 
> 
> This guy gets more demented as he ages.
> Ask the Muslims to forgive me for using violence against them
> Did he ever ask the families those soldiers killed on the raid on the army barracks where volumes of arms and ammunition were stolen to forgive him for saying they deserved to die?
> Did he ask forgiveness from the families and relatives of the 2.500 killed in the drug war??
> NO, he's a self preserving prick who cares only for himself.
> 
> ...



What to murder more people and steal more billions?
I hope noy.

----------


## LooseBowels

^ Agree,

Thats the murderous proxy amart junta governments job

You can't argue with that   :Smile:

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Bangkok Post : Pheu Thai airs charter change idea
*
*Pheu Thai airs charter  change idea*
Published: 22/07/2011 at 12:00 AMNewspaper section: News
 The Pheu Thai Party has hinted at the possibility of spearheading a charter amendment move to achieve national reconciliation.

 The party's working team on reconciliation agreed the constitution  should be amended to make it more democratic and instrumental for  reconciliation.

 A Pheu Thai source said the team yesterday discussed an approach to  put in place a reconciliation process by "returning justice" to all  parties including the red shirt United Front for Democracy against  Dictatorship and the yellow shirt People's Alliance for Democracy.

 The team also talked about sections in the 2007 constitution that should be changed and the amendment approach.

 According to the source, the amendments should alter the entire charter to make it more democratic.

 Public referendums could be held prior to and after the changes. If a  public referendum shows that the majority of voters wanted the  constitution amended, a constitution drafting assembly could be  appointed for the task.

 A post-amendment referendum should also be held to gauge whether  people agreed with the proposed changes. Amendments would be carried out  with the participation of all parties concerned.

 If the majority of voters reject the idea of amendment in a  referendum, the Pheu Thai-led government would not push for the charter  changes to be made, the source said.

 Pheu Thai would also work on restoring relations with Cambodia,  strained by the row over disputed land at the border. The source said  Pheu Thai will strengthen Thailand's ties with global superpowers like  China, the United States and the European Union.

----------


## Mid

^

SD , that is a non story and it's posts such as these that render these threads unweildly and boring  :Sad:

----------


## Pol the Pot

> Originally Posted by Pol the Pot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by noelbino
> ...


He didn't murder anybody. And he didn't steel billions. What are you talking about?

You're just repeating the crap the military government has been throwing around for the last three years.

What happened when he was PM must have been legal. He was never charged with murder or robbery.

----------


## Bobcock

> He didn't murder anybody.


 He didn't?




> And he didn't steel billions


 He didn't?

and neither has anyone else I suppose?

----------


## Pol the Pot

Wouldn't he have been put on trial for such serious crimes? Especially with such a hostile government in power for three years?

----------


## Bobcock

They never prosecute for the serious crimes, after all, they may set a precedent that would bite them on their own ass later.

Rule By Law just means prosecuting him on enough to get rid of him....

If you think he's a poor innocent you are rather naive, but I don't believe you do.

----------


## SteveCM

^



> They never prosecute for the serious crimes, after all, they may set a precedent that would bite them on their own ass later.  Rule By Law just means prosecuting him on enough to get rid of him....


Good points - plus there's the danger of the trial reaching into places where it's not welcome..... sort of like "friendly fire".

----------


## DroversDog

> Originally Posted by Pol the Pot
> 
> He didn't murder anybody.
> 
> 
>  He didn't?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So who did he murder?
Steal Billions? You have been listening to PAD for too long.

----------


## DroversDog

> They never prosecute for the serious crimes, after all, they may set a precedent that would bite them on their own ass later.
> 
> Rule By Law just means prosecuting him on enough to get rid of him....
> 
> If you think he's a poor innocent you are rather naive, but I don't believe you do.


The Thai judicial system does not use precedence. If it did then he would not have been convicted of a conflict of interest in the first place.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by Bobcock
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Pol the Pot
> ...


I think this piece covers quite a lot of the murders....the war on drugs and activists that were killed....of course Thaksin didn't murder anyone, but people who worked for him did....a bit like Abhisit et al. 

Oh, and in case you are curious as to how many of these deaths were investigated and then justice was served, well, lets just say the number isn't very big....

Environmentalist's murder puts Thai PM in the spotlight - Taipei Times

*Environmentalist's murder puts Thai PM in the spotlight*

*CRITICAL BARRAGE 
*
*Civic activists  say that the government is turning a blind eye to the growing number of  crimes against critics and rights activists*

_  AP , BANGKOK, THAILAND_

_Thailand's prime minister faced a barrage of criticism yesterday  following the assassination of a leading environmentalist  --  the 16th  activist to be murdered during his reign._

_Charoen Wattaksorn, 37,  was fatally shot by an unidentified assailant in the southern Prachuab  Khiri Khan province Monday, hours after he testified before a  parliamentary committee investigating corruption in a land deal  involving a scrapped power project._

_The killing sparked widespread  outrage with critics accusing Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra's  administration of turning a blind eye to attacks against civic  activists._

_At least 16 human rights workers, environmentalists,  farming advocates and other activists have been killed since Thaksin  took power three-and-a-half years ago._

_"This is the first time in  history that at least 16 activists have been killed during the reign of  one government," opposition Senator Niran Pitakwatch said. "The  government must do something ... otherwise people will live in a state  of fear like a police state."_

_He said if authorities don't crack  down immediately on those responsible for the killings, it will  encourage "local influential figures to conspire brazenly to kill."_

_The independent_ _Thai Post newspaper described the killings of the 16 as a "black period'' in Thailand's history._

_Thaksin  yesterday hailed Charoen as "a brave man who fought for the interest of  public," and said he had ordered the police to investigate the killing._

_But critics dismissed his comments._

_"It  is obvious that the lives of ordinary people who have a conflict with  influential figures or who obstruct any development project are at a  risk," said Pairoj Polpetch, secretary general of the Civil Liberty  Union._

_Thaksin has long been criticized for his administration's handling of human rights abuses._

_Last  year, the prime minister declared war on drugs, but the campaign left  about 2,500 people dead. The government dismissed allegations of  extra-judicial slayings by police, insisting most victims were drug gang  members killed in internecine fighting._

_Meanwhile, Charoen's  wife, Korn-uma, told reporters that if the government does not catch her  husband's killer within 100 days she will cremate his body in front of  the Government House in Bangkok._

_"Sixteen activists have already killed during the reign of this government. They should not die in vain," she said._

-----
Then there's this...a whole thread on it here....the disappearance of human rights lawyer *Somchai Neelaphaijit.*

https://teakdoor.com/thailand-and-asi...i+Neelaphaijit (Somchai Neelaphaijit - 3 years since abduction!)

-----
Then there's this.....

Tak Bai Incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Tak Bai Incident*

_The Tak Bai incident is an event that occurred on October 25, 2004 in Tak Bai, Thailand, which resulted in at least 85 deaths._

_Six local men were arrested. A demonstration was organized to demand  their release and the police called in army reinforcements. After some  demonstrators threw rocks and attempted to storm the police station,  security forces used tear gas and gunfire in response.[1]_

_Hundreds of local people, mostly young men, were arrested. They had  their shirts taken off, bound with their hands tied behind their backs,  and made to lie face down on the ground. Video footage shows soldiers  kicking and beating those already bound and helplessly lying on the  ground.[2]_

_Later that afternoon, those arrested were thrown by soldiers into trucks to be taken to an army camp in the next province of Pattani.  The prisoners were stacked five or six deep in the trucks, and by the  time the trucks reached their destination three hours later, many had  suffocated to death._

_Reports claim that 7 died as a result of gunshot wounds. The rest are believed to have died either from suffocation or beatings.[3]_

_This incident sparked widespread protests across Thailand. VCDs were made by Muslim groups showing footage of the events as well as some speeches. These VCDs were circulated among Muslims in Thailand.[4] The government said that it was illegal to own copies of the VCDs and said it could prosecute anybody who has a copy.[4]_

_Shortly after the incident, PM Thaksin Shinawatra's  first response defended the army's actions and said the men died  "because they were already weak from fasting during the month of  Ramadan."[5]_
_As of January 1, 2006, no members of the security forces responsible were brought to justice.[6]_

_Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont gave a formal apology for the incident on 2 November 2006._

-----
And this....

*Krue Sae Mosque*

*Krue Sae Mosque Incident*

_Main article: South Thailand insurgency_

_On 28 April 2004, during a period of insurgency by Islamic  nationalists in the southernmost provinces, 32 suspected guerrillas took  shelter in the mosque. After a 7 hour stand-off with Thai military  personnel, they were attacked and killed, along with about 80 others.[2]  The attack was made in contradiction of orders from the Minister of  Defence to end the confrontation peacefully, and has been the subject of  an international inquiry, which concluded the military had used  excessive force._

A nice report on the above too, if you like...which includes a snippet...

Tak Bai and Krue Se Report

*Who must take responsibility for the crackdown and the transportation of protesters?*

_The committee found that Maj-General Chalermchai  Wiroonphet, then commander of the Fifth Infantry Division, is  responsible for both incidents.

                        He was not at the scene to oversee the operation  to the end. Instead, he left the scene at 7.30pm without an acceptable  excuse, to meet the prime minister in Narathiwat._

----------


## Bobcock

Nah Drovers you are right, he's innocent of anything, he's a victim, a man who wants nothing more than truth, justice and democracy. The fact that he is in this situation is something the whole of mankind should get up in arms about. Thank God we have another Saint like Robert Amsterdam to defend him.

He hangs out with Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny too, as I suspect you wish you could.

Seeing you put your your blind faith in any Thai politician as a good man is really the funniest thing.....

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Nah Drovers you are right, he's innocent of anything, he's a victim, a man who wants nothing more than truth, justice and democracy. The fact that he is in this situation is something the whole of mankind should get up in arms about. Thank God we have another Saint like Robert Amsterdam to defend him.
> 
> He hangs out with Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny too, as I suspect you wish you could.
> 
> Seeing you put your your blind faith in any Thai politician as a good man is really the funniest thing.....


Father Christmas, the Easter Bunny, Hun Sen (Hun Sen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), Vladimir Putin (Vladimir Putin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and Pervez Musharraf (Pervez Musharraf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). A triumvirate of dictators and human rights abusers...

Nice friends.  :Smile:

----------


## Butterfly

^ you forgot to add BB and all our resident reds here  :Smile:

----------


## Butterfly

> They never prosecute for the serious crimes, after all, they may set a precedent that would bite them on their own ass later.


good point, the only reason why he got away with so much, they just don't want to open a can of worms and involved themselves eventually

Thai love their double standard, it's part of their class culture, even the poor do, sadly

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Why Thais still fear Thaksin Shinawatra - The Washington Post
*
*Why Thais still fear Thaksin Shinawatra*

*By  Steven P. Sciacchitano and John M. Cole Jr., Saturday, July 23, 6:41 AM    * 


 The July 8 editorial “Thailand’s opportunity,”  on the recent Thai general election,  strongly urged that the new  government be allowed to take office without interference from  Thailand’s army or any other part of the current administration or its  supporters. Anyone, including most Thais, would agree.

But the editorial went beyond this and spoke dismissively of the motives of opponents of Prime Minister-elect Yingluck Shinawatra and her Pheu Thai (For Thais) Party, as well as of those Thais who supported the 2006 military coup that sent her brother, then-Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra,  into exile in Dubai. “For much of the past decade, Thailand’s  establishment — its military leaders, royal household and Bangkok elite —  has been insisting that it knows better than Thailand’s people what the  country needs,” the editorial said. In other words, Thais who supported  the coup should quit acting like bullies and let democracy run its  course. 

 Some of Thaksin’s opponents, and now Yingluck’s, undoubtedly  have had such motives. But to describe most of their opponents this way  provides a fundamentally misleading picture of Thailand’s political  crisis. The reality is more complicated but essential for an  appreciation of how dangerous the situation is.

In 1973, student-led protests ended military rule  in Thailand and gave birth to a civil society movement. Its members  came mostly from an expanding middle class in Bangkok that had benefited  from new opportunities for university educations and was increasingly  politically assertive. Thai civil society groups wanted a permanent end  to military rule and government corruption, and a halt to the growing  influence of money in politics, which had become pervasive as  businessmen came to dominate parliament. 

By 1997, these groups had grown strong enough to force parliament to agree to a new constitution.  Significantly, it was drafted not by serving politicians or bureaucrats  but by a popularly elected committee. The new constitution made too  many changes to the existing charter to list here, but the underlying  purpose was simple: to enforce the rule of law. It established, among  other independent institutions, a national anti-corruption commission, a  constitutional court and an election commission, and it explicitly  recognized many human rights. Some questioned how effective the changes  would be, but in general the 1997 constitution was hailed as a major  advance for democracy in Thailand.

In 2001, Thaksin Shinawatra,  one of Thailand’s wealthiest business executives, was elected prime  minister. One reason for his decisive victory was a populist program to  help Thailand’s rural poor, but his main message was that Thailand  needed to be run in a modern, businesslike way. Thaksin liked to call  himself the “CEO prime minister,” and he played down the importance of  the system established by the 1997 constitution, arguing that it wasn’t  law that mattered but results.

Thaksin asserted that since he was a  moral person and a successful executive, he had the best claim to  govern Thailand, and that the opposition was illegitimate. Over time,  more Thais saw in his actions evidence that he was using his office and  his enormous personal wealth to gut the constitutional reforms of any  real meaning and to perpetuate himself in power. This was the main  reason for the conflict between Thaksin and his opponents, not the  desire of a pampered elite in Bangkok to maintain its privileges. In  2006, after Thaksin tried to manipulate the army promotion list,  installing loyalists in key command positions to further his reelection  prospects, the army acted to remove him. 

This is not an apology  for the 2006 coup; reasonable people disagree over the extent to which  perceptions of Thaksin’s ultimate goals were justified. Some of his most  committed critics opposed the coup, while others supported it as the  lesser of two evils. It’s not hard to sympathize with the hope of many  Pheu Thai supporters for a fairer society, but stability in Thailand  depends not just on accepting the results of the recent election but  also on whether Pheu Thai can separate itself from Thaksin’s personal  interests. Unfortunately, all indications are that he still controls the  party from exile in Dubai, and as long as this is the case, the  situation remains very dangerous.

_
Steven P. Sciacchitano and John  M. Cole Jr. are retired Army officers who trained as Thai specialists  and served a combined 15 years in Thailand, including assignments in the  U.S. Embassy and as exchange officers with the Thai army._

----------


## Mid

> Why Thais still fear Thaksin Shinawatra


reconcile that headline with the latest election results  :mid:

----------


## SteveCM

^



> Steven P. Sciacchitano and John M. Cole Jr. are retired Army officers who trained as Thai specialists and served a combined 15 years in Thailand, including assignments in the U.S. Embassy and as exchange officers with the Thai army.


 - and it's rather plain that their bosom buddy relationship with the Thai army hasn't dimmed since they retired. I can only assume that reading up on modern Thai history wasn't a priority for them then or since.....

----------


## StrontiumDog

Bangkok Post : Mr Mouthwash holds no grudges

ABOUTPolitics

*Mr Mouthwash holds no grudges*

*Army spokesman Sansern keeps trademark cool demeanour  despite the possible loss of his job*
Published: 23/07/2011 at 12:00 AMNewspaper section: NewsCol Sansern Kaewkamnerd has remained cool and calm as the Pheu Thai Party-led government takes shape.

 
Sansern: Unflustered by change of guard.

 The army spokesman has every reason to be apprehensive with the  national leadership changing hands and Pheu Thai now replacing the  Democrats as the core party of the new administration.

 Col Sansern shot to fame after making frequent TV appearances to  update the public on military operations to contain the red-shirt  protests and ensuing riots last year.

 As director of the Army Psychological Operation Division, he had a bright future, but the July 3 election changed all that.

 He had worked day and night during the political violence and was admired by his superiors.

 Col Sansern was also adored by a large section of the yellow-shirt People's Alliance for Democracy movement.

 His popularity reached feverish levels last year when admirers  flooded social networking pages praising the colonel's composure in the  face of critical situations and his sharp remarks against elements that  condoned the political upheaval.

 His role in the crackdown on the red shirts put him at odds with  supporters and sympathisers of Pheu Thai ally, the United Front for  Democracy against Dictatorship.

 It is only natural that Pheu Thai's rise to power might perturb the colonel.

 However, Col Sansern has reacted with placidity, saying he could work wherever his superiors put him.

 A class 23 graduate of the Armed Forces Academies Preparatory School,  there was speculation he might be promoted to major general after the  ''political war'' was over.

 But the promotion never came as military insiders thought an  elevation of rank at this time might be too soon for the 48-year-old  cavalry officer.

 Col Sansern has reiterated he was not in the business of pleasing  anyone and that he trusted the majority of people understood his role as  army spokesman and why he did what he did during last year's mayhem.

 He is up there among the red shirts' most-despised figures in the military.

 A family member of one of those killed in the still-unsolved Wat  Pathumwanaram massacre gave him a gift of mouthwash for suggesting that  no soldier had fired on the red shirt protesters who took refuge inside  the temple near the main protest site at Ratchaprasong intersection.

 Col Sansern said he was humbled by the important tasks he was given to perform and harboured no grudges.

 An army source said he expects Col Sansern will keep his spokesman  post as long as Gen Prayuth Chan-ocha stays put as army chief.

 Gen Prayuth has supported Col Sansern, whom he says put himself on the line for the army.

 He defended Col Sansern after the spokesman had to explain the army's  action in tackling drug suspects in the lead-up to the election.

 Opponents slammed the operation as an excuse for intimidating poll candidates.

 If and when Col Sansern is shifted from the spokesman's post, he will be a hard act to follow, the source said.

----------


## Pol the Pot

Attention whore or what? If he's a true career soldier he'd shut the fuck up, stop giving the media interviews and get back to his job of soldiering.

----------


## SteveCM

> As director of the Army Psychological Operation Division, he had a bright future, but the July 3 election changed all that.


 :mid:

----------


## StrontiumDog

*No amnesty for just one man : opposition MP Purachai

EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW* 

*No amnesty for just one man : opposition MP Purachai*

                            By The Nation
                                             Published on July 25, 2011                


*Dubbed as "Mr Ruler" for his staunch integrity, Rak  Santi Party leader Purachai Piumsomboon is pleased with his successful  return to the political fray. This time around, the former deputy  interior minister does not mind sitting on the opposition bench.*

Purachai vows to general-news editor Chularat  Saengpassa that he would remain as "unbending" as a ruler when it comes  to upholding righteousness.

*What do you think about the election results?*

Satisfied.  Not only did the Rak Santi Party receive about 284,000 proportional  votes, but its candidates also finished in third place in most Bangkok  constituencies. Such a performance is good since we did not have many  months to prepare for the election. In the very beginning, we believed  the voting would not take place before the Democrat-led government  finished its term late this year. Coup rumours were also flying around.  By the way, when the election was announced, we decided to jump in  because we wanted to give people an alternative, a new choice. Rak Santi  is not a party to the conflict that has been dragging on in the country  for years now. 

*Did your party use too little marketing tactics?*

I think we  were on the right track. It's just that we didn't want to spend too much  money. In just a few months, we managed to get 284,000 votes. 

*Was there any lesson to be learned?*

After many political  parties were dissolved, I planned not to assign the party's executive  posts to those running in an election race. This is because executives  risk being banned from politics for a certain period of time if their  party is dissolved.

About the election results, I would like to  emphasise that the Rak Santi and Thai Rak Thai (TRT) parties are  different in many ways. (Purachai was a co-founder of the immensely  popular but now-dissolved TRT).

First, when TRT first fielded  candidates in an election, it was already fully prepared. TRT spent  three years making solid preparations. The Rak Santi Party had just 40  days before it officially launched its election campaign. 

Second,  media coverage was mostly given to the two main political parties. Rak  Santi candidates gave interviews to TV reporters too but they were  hardly broadcast. 

Third, we had a limited budget. We never bought advertising space in the media. 

Rak  Santi and TRT have some similarities, though. Both started with small  steps. Both were born at a time when the country was facing a serious  crisis. When TRT was formed, the country had suffered badly from the  1997 financial crisis. Rak Santi sprang into existence at the time Thais  were suffering from political violence. That's why our party is named  "Rak Santi" (Loving Peace). Our goal is to restore peace through  intellectual, not violent, means. 

Rak Santi is a new party with  limited financial resources, so I don't think its election results  should be compared with those of Pheu Thai (a reincarnation of TRT) and  the Democrat Party (the country's oldest political party). 

*What about the Rak Prathet Thai Party's immense success? The votes it  received from the party-list system were three times more than yours.*

Chuwit  Kamolvisit founded Rak Prathet Thai Party long before Rak Santi was  established. The strategies used were also different. His party focused  on party-list votes alone while we also fielded candidates in most  constituencies. We believe our strategy will work well in the long run.  It is going to build a support base for Rak Santi across the country  over time. To me, a party that plans to work in the political arena permanently should have candidates for both party-list and  constituency-based systems. 

I'm not going to comment on voters' choice regarding Rak Prathet Thai Party's huge success. 

I  can only say that I'm happy with how Rak Santi Party fared in the  general election. We had little time to prepare and relatively little  money for our election campaign.

*In most surveys conducted before the House dissolution, your name  emerged as a top favourite when people were asked which person they  wanted as the government leader. Has your popularity been declining  since then?*

I don't think so. Respondents have mentioned my name  when they were asked which type they wanted as the government leader.  But Thailand's political system does not provide for the direct election  of the prime minister. People here have elected their MPs and their MPs  have elected the prime minister. 

In my opinion, it takes time to  establish a political party firmly in society. It's also important for  those in charge to steer the political party in the right election.

*Who are your party's supporters?*

Those aged over 30, especially  people between 40 and 50. Big fans are apparently government officials  from the middle rank up, and teachers and adults who seriously follow  political developments. 

*You're the only Rak Santi MP in Parliament. As an opposition MP, what are you planning to do?*

I  will monitor legal enforcement especially in regards to laws concerning  social order. For example, authorities should provide an explanation  for why night entertainment venues have been blossoming across Bangkok  despite the fact that the Enter-tain-ment Venue Act of 2003 prescribes  zoning. MPs are not involved in the legislation of laws only. They have  to ensure enforcement of the laws too. 

*What do you think about constitutional amendments and amnesty laws that may crop up?*

I  think the country should look ahead. Don't waste too much time dwelling  on the past. Please think about economic problems and  international-relationship issues that we have to tackle. Don't focus on  just one man or one group of people. Let justice run its course for  that man and those people. Please don't interfere. 

*Do you mean you will voice opposition if the Pheu Thai Party proposes an amnesty law?*

I  don't think amnesty laws should be initiated for a particular man.  Everyone should be held responsible for his or her action. This concept  applies to those seizing airports and staging (non-peaceful) rallies  too. Good people should be praised and bad people should be punished.

Now  that you have returned to politics, will you adjust your character a  bit? Many politicians used to say you are too uncompromising and so it's  hard to work with you. 

I believe I'm simple and straightforward. It should be easy to work with me. I don't oppose all issues. I'm reasonable. 

*With such a stance, are you ready to vote for the government on some issues?* 

Yes,  if the government does something good, I'll vote for it. However, on  some other issues, I may vote against it or just abstain. There are  three options. Abstention will be necessary in cases where I don't  receive adequate information for decision-making. But definitely, I  won't miss a meeting or opt for a no vote (laughs).

*You won't toe the opposition whip's line then?*

No. I work independently.

*Does this mean you may vote for Yingluck Shinawatra when her name is nominated for premier?*

Let's wait and see. (Laughs). It's too soon to comment on that. 

*Some critics say you are now a bent ruler, and just someone advocating nepotism. What do you say about this?*

Truth  will speak the loudest in the end. There are some groundless  allegations against me. For example, I'm accused of having tried to  protect General Patcharawat Wongsuwan when I sat on the Police  Commission. Then, I'm being accused of being the nominee of the Pheu  Thai Party, Bhum Jai Thai Party and the military. Such slandering is  going on. But the truth is that in my heart, I only think about serving  the country. 

*What about the Rak Santi Party's future?*

The Rak Santi Party  will remain true to its political ideology. We plan to have 5,000  members within one year of our establishment, or nine months from now.  After that, we'll open offices in the four regions. Training will be  provided to party members so that they get a full understanding of the  issues like the global economy and the environment. 

 Watch a video of Rak Santi Party leader Purachai Piumsombon vowing to remain as "straight" as a ruler at www.nationmultimedia.com.

----------


## SteveCM

> Why Thais still fear Thaksin Shinawatra - The Washington Post  Why Thais still fear Thaksin Shinawatra  By Steven P. Sciacchitano and John M. Cole Jr....


From the blog world.....

*Why do Thais fear Thaksin? | Asian Correspondent*

_By Bangkok Pundit 
Jul 24, 2011_

Steven P. Sciacchitano and John M. Cole Jr, two former US military  officers who are Thai specialists and served at the US Embassy in  Bangkok, have an op-ed in the _Washington Post_ entitled Why Thais still fear Thaksin Shinawatra. Key excerpt:_Thaksin asserted that since he was a moral person and a  successful executive, he had the best claim to govern Thailand, and that  the opposition was illegitimate. [1] Over time, more Thais saw  in his actions evidence that he was using his office and his enormous  personal wealth to gut the constitutional reforms of any real meaning  and to perpetuate himself in power. This was the main reason for the  conflict between Thaksin and his opponents, not the desire of a pampered  elite in Bangkok to maintain its privileges. [2] In  2006, after Thaksin tried to manipulate the army promotion list,  installing loyalists in key command positions to further his reelection  prospects, the army acted to remove him.

 This is not an apology for the 2006 coup; reasonable people disagree  over the extent to which perceptions of Thaksins ultimate goals were  justified. Some of his most committed critics opposed the coup, while  others supported it as the lesser of two evils. Its not hard to  sympathize with the hope of many Pheu Thai supporters for a fairer  society, but stability in Thailand depends not just on accepting the  results of the recent election but also on whether Pheu Thai can  separate itself from Thaksins personal interests. Unfortunately, all  indications are that he still controls the party from exile in Dubai,  and as long as this is the case, the situation remains very dangerous.
_*BP*: On [1], BP would agree that for many people who  opposed Thaksin that it was because of how he acted, particularly  post-2005 and that they saw he was corrupt and beyond the law and this  was _part_ of the reason for the conflict. As Pasuk Phongpaichit argued in Thai politics beyond the 2006 coup (PDF):_The middle class initially welcomed Thaksin in 2001 as a  leader to continue the modernisation reforms begun in the 1990s. Their  support held up for four years, but in 2005, they turned against him in a  violent and highly emotional way.

 The middle class had three fears: first, that it was dangerous to have a state dominated by a clique of the biggest and rather corrupt business interests; second, that they would have to pay for Thaksins populism through increased taxes and the resulting economic disorder; and third, that Thaksins formula  an alliance of big money and big numbers  would make the middle class politically irrelevant._
But as Pasuk also noted:_In 2006, Bangkok again felt threatened, but this time by a  political leader and political party which had built unprecedented  support in the rural areas of the North and the Northeast by delivering a  range of populist programmes, and promising more._
*BP*: It is not just about corruption. You also have  the royalist factor as Ukrist Pathmanand argued in A Different Coup  dE'tat?  see this PDF. Also, Michael Nelson quoting Thongchai:_Thongchai Winichakul, a veteran of the student movement  in the 1970s and now a professor of history at the University of  Wisconsin, put it this way, This coup is not only for toppling Thaksin. It is a royalist coup with a purpose.  If one is not so naïve, Prems fingerprints and footprints are all over  the place for us to see (Thongchai 2006a: 6). According to Thongchai  (ibid.), the purpose of the coupabstracting somewhat from the detailed  conditions leading to the eventwas to make sure that a government that  is obedient, even submissive, to royalist leadership is in place in  case of succession._
*BP*: So yes, there is the Thaksin was corrupt  element, but the coup would never happened just because of that. The  establishment also felt threatened by Thaksin and that he was sharing in  the spoils that they had

 For [2], the official reasons for the coup were:_We agreed that the caretaker prime minister has caused an  unprecedented rift in society, widespread corruption, nepotism, and  interfered in independent agencies, crippling them so they cannot  function. If the caretaker government is allowed to govern it will hurt  the country. They have also repeatedly insulted the king. Thus the  council needed to seize power to control the situation, to restore  normalcy and to create unity as soon as possible._
*BP*: After the coup, coup leader Gen. Sonthi said  the coup was staged because there was a lot of vote-buying in the  previous election. A former senior military officer and member of the  coup-appointed parliament said  it was because Thaksin had underspent on defence spending. Now, it is  certainly correct that military officers feared for their future as per a  journal article entitled THE THAI MILITARY: A POLITICAL ROLE:_A number of senior officers issued official complaints alleging government interference in reshuffling processes in July 2006.  This was around the time when Thaksin was reported to have held a  private meeting with former Class 10 officers, an action that was met  with strong suspicion within the Army. (Lee 2006) Several of Thaksins former classmates were expected to receive promotions in the reshuffling of October 2006.  In fact, it was widely speculated that the coming round, which the coup  conveniently pre-empted, would remove Sonthi and his supporters once  and for all. (Beech 2006)._
*BP*: On that July reshuffle, it was as Michael Nelson notes Gen. Sonthi who was removing Thaksins people:_Shortly afterwards, Army Commander Sonthi  deprived Thaksins classmates from the Armed Forces Academys  Preparatory Class 10 of much of their operational military power by  transferring many of their trusted middle-ranking officers to other  positions. A commentator in the Bangkok Post (July 21, 2006)  had this to say: The latest military reshuffle serves as an unmistaken  message to Mr. Thaksin and his ex-classmates at the pre-cadet school  that Gen. Sonthis first and foremost loyalty is not to them. Prem  continued to drum up support for his views of the role of the military  vis-à-vis the political leaders. On July 28, he gave a special lecture  to 350 cadets at the Naval Academy, stressing that national leaders must  be ethical and have a high degree of morality:_
*BP:* Isnt it rather odd to criticize a civilian  leader of manipulating the selection of military officers given that the  military had themselves removed most of the Thaksin loyalists in  advance of the coup. That Thaksin was going to put some of his people  back into place and to possibly remove the army chief is called  manipulation. One wonders what the military officers would think if  Obama wanted to choose his own generals or what they think should happen  to a general who had publicly shown disrespect to Obama and his  administration. Oh wait, we know what would happen. On political meddling/manipulation, here is what BP said in a previous post:So it is political meddling when the PM chooses who  he/she wants for the Army C-in-C position, but it is professionalism  when military leaders appoint people to key positions to protect their  own interests. Only, The Nation cannot see the contradiction.
Or this other post:References to the politicization of the military under  Thaksin actually means removal of Prems role in the choice of the Army  C-in-C and other members of the brass and the PM choosing the Army  C-in-C. Ultimately, someone has to choose the Army C-in-C.
*BP*: BP is a little skeptical that the military  officers were helping Thaksin in his reelection bid  contrast with the  2007 general election where the military were heavily involved against  Thaksin  this is what the Interior Ministry were for, but putting key  people in military positions was more about preventing a coup.

----------


## StrontiumDog

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/poli...me-draws-anger

THAKSIN'S BIRTHDAY 

*Event name draws anger*
Published: 25/07/2011 at 12:00 AMNewspaper section: News

 Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban has  urged a pro-Thaksin Shinawatra  group to change the name of a ceremony  it is planning to mark the exiled former prime minister's birthday.

 Thaksin will turn 62 tomorrow and the Thai E-News website reports  red-shirt groups in 61 provinces will simultaneously celebrate with a  ceremony titled name of "Thaksin Maharashtra".

 The name has been criticised because its pronunciation of the  Sanskrit word "Maharashtra" _ "the great nation" in English _ closely  matches "Maharaja", or "the Great King".

 Mr Suthep, the Democrat party's acting secretary-general, questioned yesterday why the red shirts wanted to use such a name.

 Democrat Party leader spokesman Thepthai Senpong said security agencies should look into the issue.

 "Thaksin's supporters are trampling the hearts of all Thai people who are loyal to the monarchy," he said.

 But red-shirt United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship  chairwoman Tida Tawornseth denied backing the ceremony, saying that the  celebration had been personally organised by Thaksin's civilian  supporters.

 Noppadon Pattama, Thaksin's legal adviser, said a Pheu Thai defector  was behind the event and was working to destroy Thaksin's reputation.

 "Thaksin has acknowledged the issue and is displeased," said Mr Noppadon. "He said [the name] is inappropriate."

----------


## SteveCM

*Apology to the South a lame bid for sympathy*

*EDITORIAL* 

                            By The Nation
                                             Published on July 25, 2011                


                                             Thaksin's pathetic plea forgets so much, from death squads to Tak Bai

               Former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, a convicted  criminal living in self-imposed exile, expressed regret for his handling  of the conflict in the Muslim-majority South and asked for forgiveness  for his heavy-handed ways.

"When we are in power for a long time,  sometimes we may use power too much," Thaksin was quoted as saying in  his recent interview with Thai PBS television network.

He said he was sorry for having resorted to violence in his attempts to return peace to the region.

Like  everything else, good intention is not good policy. Continued ill  intention appeared the case for Thaksin's attitude towards the  Malay-speaking South.

His request for forgiveness was nothing more  than a lame attempt to win sympathy for his return to Thailand - more  accurately, for the return of his billions confiscated by the court  after he was convicted of stealing billions from the state.

Needless  to say, Thaksin's record for the deep South has left much to be  desired. His highly offensive statement - "If you want your province to  be looked after by the government, you have to vote for my party" -  continue to jolt both Buddhists and Muslims in the deep South alike.

It  was also he who tossed the idea of denying development money to  villages designated by the military as "Red Zone"  not to be confused  with his support base red shirts  if they failed to help state security  officials hunt down separatist militants. It was quickly tossed out the  window when he was reminded that he himself was behaving like a real  separatist.

On the day after the Kru Se Mosque stand-off in April  2004 -- in which well over 100 young men attacked 11 police outposts  with machetes to be met by a hail of machinegun fire  Thaksin couldn't  even notice the disturbing nature of the event but instead made a public  statement, with his crocodile tears, urging the media to stop picking  on his children.

The fact was that a major stand-off ending in the death of 106 insurgents didn't seem to bother him greatly. 

Security  officials were pulling out their hair, asking if these men were willing  to charge into certain death, what might yet eventuate? His cousin,  General Chaisit Shinawatra, dismissed the attackers as a bunch of drug  crazed youth.

And then there was the Tak Bai massacre, when troops  fired into a crowd of unarmed demonstrators, killing seven on the spot.  Later that evening, 78 unarmed young men were smothered to death on the  back of military transport trucks. The only form of punishment handed  down was the transfer of the Fourth Army chief from the deep South to an  inactive post.

 controversial Emergency Law

Meanwhile, let us not forget that  it was Thaksin who passed the controversial Emergency Law, billed as "a  licence to kill" because the burden was placed on the victim to prove  that allegedly abusive authorities had been "ill-intentioned."

The  culture of impunity that he encouraged never stopped. And extrajudicial  and targeted killings carried out by rogue units and pro-government  death squads continue as common practice in the region.

Champions  and heroes are people who make personal and political sacrifices.  Thaksin is asking for forgiveness. For a man who billed himself as a  champion of justice, Thaksin seems to be picking and choosing as to what  kind of sacrifice, if any, he would like to make.

He said charges  against him were unfair and therefore he was not going to serve any  jail term. And yet, he compared himself to the likes of Aung San Suu Kyi  and Nelson Mandela, people who actually made personal and political  sacrifices to bring to light highly abusive systems in their respective  homelands.

Thaksin billed himself as a victim but said nothing  about the scam he pulled to enrich himself, his family members, his  cronies. He said nothing about how many children he left orphaned as a  result of his handling of the deep South, or his controversial 'War on  drugs' that killed 2,500 people in three months.

The sad thing of  it all is that Thaksin knew what he could get away with. His party and  proxies may have got more votes than others. But it hasn't changed the  fact that this man is a scam artist and a criminal.

For him, it  was all about political brownie points, at the expense of countless  lives, while he and his cronies set out to undermine and destroy public  check-and-balance systems and democratic institutions. And the man wants  forgiveness! If he doesn't get his way, will Bangkok and other cities  in Thailand encounter another ocean of fire? So much for a hero.

----------


## SteveCM

^
From the blog world.....
*
Impunity in Thailands Deep South | Asian Correspondent*

_By Bangkok Pundit 
Jul 25, 2011_


_The Nation_ on Thaksins apology over his handling of the Deep South:_Former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, a convicted  criminal living in self-imposed exile, expressed regret for his handling  of the conflict in the Muslim-majority South and asked for forgiveness  for his heavy-handed ways.

 When we are in power for a long time, sometimes we may use power too much, Thaksin was quoted as saying in his recent interview with Thai PBS television network.
 
On the day after the Kru Se Mosque stand-off in April 2004_ _   in which well over 100 young men attacked 11 police outposts with  machetes to be met by a hail of machinegun fire  Thaksin couldnt even  notice the disturbing nature of the event but instead made a public  statement, with his crocodile tears, urging the media to stop picking on  his children.

 The fact was that a major stand-off ending in the death of 106 insurgents didnt seem to bother him greatly.

 Security officials were pulling out their hair, asking if these men  were willing to charge into certain death, what might yet eventuate? His  cousin, General Chaisit Shinawatra, dismissed the attackers as a bunch  of drug crazed youth.

And then there was the Tak Bai massacre, when troops fired  into a crowd of unarmed demonstrators, killing seven on the spot. Later  that evening, 78 unarmed young men were smothered to death on the back  of military transport trucks. The only form of punishment handed down  was the transfer of the Fourth Army chief from the deep South to an  inactive post._ _

 Meanwhile, let us not forget that it was Thaksin who passed the  controversial Emergency Law, billed as a licence to kill because the  burden was placed on the victim to prove that allegedly abusive  authorities had been ill-intentioned.

The culture of impunity that he encouraged never stopped. And  extrajudicial and targeted killings carried out by rogue units and  pro-government death squads continue as common practice in the region._ 
*BP*: BP will agree that Thaksin never did anything to  go after military officers or soldiers who were involved in killing  people in the Deep South. For that he deserves blame, but lets look at  the most well-known event on April 28, 2004, the Kru Se mosque incident:

 As the comprehensive International Crisis Group reports states on the Kru Se incident (p23 of the PDF):_General Phanlop Phinmani arrived at around noon. took  command of the operation from a Colonel Manas, who relayed to him his  instructions from Deputy Prime Minister Chawlit Yongchaiyudh to surround  the mosque but not to attack. Phanlop then consulted with Chawlit by  phone, stressing the need for military action. Chawlit ordered  Phanlop not to attack but rather to provide food and water to the  militants and coax them out of the mosque. At 12:30p.m., on Phanlops  orders, however, soldiers threw four grenades into the mosque and  another fire fight ensued._
*BP*: Panlop then ordered the storming of the mosque  and 31 people were killed. As the ICG report and all other reports note,  the government of the day specifically ordered the military *not*  to storm the mosque. The military didnt listen so it is hard to blame  the government for being behind the attack, but of course Panlop was  subsequently transferred and no criminal action was brought. That  Thaksin didnt ensure Panlop was punished is a black mark and previous  acts on not seeking punishment and thus perpetuating the impunity is a  stain on Thaksins record. However, it is not as though governments  since Thaksin have done anything. The coup leaders appointed Panlop as an advisor to ISOC on the Deep South.* Under Surayud and Abhisit, did anything happen? When the Rohingya were pushed back out to sea and it is estimated that a couple of hundred people died, did Abhisit do anything about it?

 Of course, in some instances, there is some progress on some cases,  but these cases rarely result in convictions. For example, when a group  of men killed 10 people at a mosque in June 2009  see this US embassy cable for some background  Abhsits government championed the arrest warrant of a former ranger to ICG (p14), but a year later the charges were dropped.  The military and security apparatus block efforts of accountability and  well the civilian sides often acquiesce with nothing happening. BP sees  most lack of action as more acquiescing in most cases than direct  government involvement in stopping investigation, although the civilians  will turn a blind eye.

 The military in Thailand have impunity. They are untouchable. If _The Nation_  wants to blame every single problem on Thaksin, fine, but seriously the  Thai military having impunity is not a new thing and there is no real  indication that this is changing.  Abhisits problem was that his  government was put together with the help of the military and he was  dependent on the military for the survival of his government. For  Yingluck, if she takes on the military her days in office are numbered,  so will she? It is unlikely than anyone will go to jail and the only  hope is some truth committee, but even that is unlikely. Will the red  shirts push back on her for not doing so after 6-12 months or so? If so,  well then this could create real problems for Puea Thai.

 Mere words by Thaksin wont undo what happened; concrete action is  needed, but at least he is acknowledging a mistake which makes _The Nation_s  outrage and singling out Thaksin even more odd although one should wait  for actual action before having any hope of change. Just look at the  vitriol in the last paragraph of the editorial:_For him, it was all about political brownie points, at  the expense of countless lives, while he and his cronies set out to  undermine and destroy public check-and-balance systems and democratic  institutions. And the man wants forgiveness! If he doesnt get his way,  will Bangkok and other cities in Thailand encounter another ocean of  fire? So much for a hero._
*BP*: Argh, the anti-Thaksin, polemic _The Nation_ of 2006 is back with a vengeance

 *One should not expect anything to happen now given Panlop has now  returned to the Thaksin fold so he is unlikely to be thrown to the  wolves.

----------


## Buksida

Here is a good paper on Thaksin's policies and how they worsened the situation in the South. Would be interesting to hear comments from Stevie and other red nutters.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> This is not an apology for the 2006 coup;


yes it is.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*http://www.asiasentinel.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3341&Ite  mid=442

Thaksin Promises He'll Forgive Everybody         *  

Written by Pavin Chachavalpongpun                                                                                                                                        
Monday, 25 July 2011



_But he still wants his money back, and he doesnt believe he needs to serve time for corruption._ 

  Two weeks after Thailands general election, former Prime Minister  Thaksin Shawawatra has opened up for the first time to the Thai public  in a tell-all interview with a popular Thai talk-show, _Tob Jode_ (Answering Questions).  

During the two-part interview which was aired from July 18-19, Thaksin  masqueraded as a moral leader who was ready to forgive his enemies. But  there was one cynical flaw; he only saw faults in others but none in  himself. 

From his base in Dubai, Thaksin granted a much-anticipated interview  following the landslide election victory of the Pheu Thai Party, led by  his youngest sister, Yingluck Shinawatra. Thaksin touched upon a number  of contentious issues and offered to find a way out of the political  crisis that has wracked the country since the coup that brought him down  in 2006.  

The former premier talked candidly about the problem with Thai law.  Thai society has become deeply polarized, he said, because of the  politicization of the judicial process. Thaksin declared.  

Thailand in the past five years has been shaped by rule by law, not  rule of law. Whereas the latter is upheld by democracy, the former is  maintained by despots. He also added, Law is supposed to bring peace  to society, not mess it up. Partly Thaksins criticism was perhaps to  forewarn his opponents not to stage a judicial coup against his  sisters government. In 2008, the Constitutional Court removed two  pro-Thaksin prime ministers: Samak Sundaravej and Somchai Wongsawat. 

Despite being toppled in a military coup, charged with corruption and  kept from coming home on threat of prison, Thaksin said he had buried  his tumultuous past. As a self-proclaimed devout Buddhist, Thaksin said  he had succeeded in eliminating his greed, wrath and illusion. I may  not forget those who hurt me, but I have forgiven them, Thaksin said. 

Those who are still angry with me, I wish to invite them over to Dubai.  I will take them out for a nice dinner. This invitation is specifically  for Khun Sonthi; both Sonthi Boonyaratglin (the coup maker) and Sonthi  Limthongkul (leader of the yellow-shirt Peoples Alliance for  Democracy). Without forgiveness, how can different political factions  reconcile? 

Thaksin then compared the reconciliation process with playing a sport.  He said, Most Thais are fixated with revenges. They are so competitive  that they ignore rules and regulations. Worse, the referees are not  neutral. In reference to his recent meeting with the South African hero  Nelson Mandela, Thaksin said, He told me to forgive, and I did. 

But when asked if he was willing to serve his two-year jail term,  Thaksin argued that the sentence was politically motivated. I am not a  bad person. I was just obsessed with driving Thailand forward; this  could come across as being aggressive. When you were moving ahead too  fast, you often fail to look back, or to notice if you stepped on  anyones foot. 

I am not perfect. I have weak points. I should have known better how to  balance between hard and soft powers, Thaksin lamented. I used an  iron-fist approach in dealing with many issues in the past, but they  could not solve all problems. Sometime, we must put on velvet gloves.  

His interview has been met with a mixed response. For one thing, what  Thaksin said still matters to many of his supporters, and to his  adversaries who remain in high places. The fact that the Yingluck  government will be to largely stage-managed by Thaksin reaffirms that  his political views will continue to dominate Thailands politics in the  years to come. 

Can Thaksins enemies trust what he pledged? Is it really realistic for  Thaksin to forgive his political opponents who deposed him, tainted his  reputation and took away his money and power? How essy is it going to be  for all sides of the Thai crisis to just forget it and move on? If it  is easy to do so, why has the conflict persisted? 

Throughout the interview, Thaksin continued to defend himself while  putting the blame on others. When the talk-show host asked if he  regretted his violent policy toward the Thai Muslims in the south, he  replied, I was only implementing hard-nosed measures to counter their  use of violence.  

Thaksin may open his heart, but he also immensely contradicted himself.  How can the reconciliation process be a success when Thaksin, a key  player in Thailands troubled politics, has never admitted any  wrongdoing?  

_ (Pavin Chachavalpongpun is a fellow of the Institute of Southeast  Asian Studies. This does not reflect the opinions of the institute.)_

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Here is a good paper on Thaksin's policies and how they worsened the situation in the South. Would be interesting to hear comments from Stevie and other red nutters


When are you going to cease your inane obsession with Taki?

Yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn! :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Buksida

> Originally Posted by Buksida
> 
> Here is a good paper on Thaksin's policies and how they worsened the situation in the South. Would be interesting to hear comments from Stevie and other red nutters
> 
> 
> When are you going to cease your inane obsession with Taki?
> 
> Yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!


He's the main subject of this thread, that's why everybody else is posting about him, Dickhead.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> He's the main subject of this thread, that's why everybody else is posting about him, Dickhead.


No he isn't he's been made the main subject by "Dickheads" like you!  :rofl:

----------


## Aussie Tigger

Thaksin will be back who really could have thought otherwise.

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> Thaksin will be back who really could have thought otherwise.


What proof do you have of that? :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  absolutely none I'm sure!

----------


## Rural Surin

> Here is a good paper on Thaksin's policies and how they worsened the situation in the South. Would be interesting to hear comments from Stevie and other red nutters.


Consider the source. Professor McCargo has long enjoyed the company of like-minded Thai scholars that brush away any sort of alternative curiosity and inquiry towards any such examinations as such applies to contemporary Thai history. Largely accredited with being a long-time apologist for the Thai establishment, his body of work might be exemplary in comparative scope.

In fairness, one might try to explore the obvious objective routes. For every pro position there will be a counterpoint.

----------


## Takeovers

> Consider the source.


No need really to know the source. 

You need to read only two or three sentences to know it is an anti Thaksin propaganda piece.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

One of the more measured scholars is Pasuk Pongpaichit. She written quite a bit about Thakisn. She's about as neutral as they come really.. and I think it's fair to say she's still anti-Thaksin

----------


## SteveCM

> In fairness, one might try to explore the obvious objective routes.


Which would those be? Let's say an author (more likely an organisation) sets out to assess a government's _overall_ rating - something along the lines of rolling the corruption, media freedom, GDP, Gini etc indices into one "score"..... like the principal's summary of a student's performance using individual teacher's scoring and comments in a school report. The overall rating is still going to be skewed by what that principal sees as being more significant (and thus "weighted") among all the various criteria.

It seems reasonable to think that Pasuk and her husband share a broadly similar "take" on their subject matter - given that you don't see in their co-authored books something like "I see it this way - but Chris disagrees". I can see (at least in theory) scope for a treatment that _is_ actually a pro-con counterpoint debate - where only the same evidence is used by opposing "sides" for each to interpret. In practice, of course, that almost never happens; it's nearly always the _selection_ of the evidence that counts most - coupled with playing up the "useful" points while downplaying or even simply ignoring the inconvenient ones. So much for there being "no opinion in fact"..... 




> One of the more measured scholars is Pasuk Pongpaichit. She written quite a bit about Thakisn. She's about as neutral as they come really.. and I think it's fair to say she's still anti-Thaksin





> You need to read only two or three sentences to know it is an anti Thaksin propaganda piece.


It strikes me that "anti-Thaksin" is used too often - including where "Thaksin-critical" would be more appropriate. Looking at the record, who _wouldn't_ be Thaksin-critical in that sense? Come to that, which politician who had been busy actually making a difference for five years _wouldn't_ have screwed up (at the very least "failed") somewhere along the line? In any case, most actions and changes that benefit one aspect or group come at the expense of some other aspect(s) or group(s) - and that's before considering initiatives that simply failed for whatever reason (ill-advised, not thought-through, impracticable - or just plain wrong-headed).




> For every pro position there will be a counterpoint.


Put more simply, there's (nearly) _always_ a "but". IMO the key difference between being "Thaksin-critical" and "anti-Thaksin" seems to lie in whether that "but" is there or not.

----------


## Butterfly

it's funny how the Thaksin minions in this thread are trying to distract the attention from the real issue, that is their little dictator games, Thaksin

----------


## Buksida

> Largely accredited with being a long-time  apologist for the Thai establishment, his body of work might be  exemplary in comparative scope.


RS with more BS, Bangkok Pundit calls McCargo "British academic and noted scholar on Thai politics", he was extremely critical of the 2006 Coup.  McCargo sees himself as challenging mainstream assumptions in Thai  studies and beyond, questioning the value of narrowly discipline-based  perspectives in favour of more eclectic and empirically-grounded  approaches.




> No need really to know the source. 
> 
> You need to read only two or three sentences to know it is an anti Thaksin propaganda piece.


A typical reaction from a red nutter - reads the first two lines, sees that it's not pro-Thaksin and calls it propaganda.



> When are you going to cease your inane obsession with Taki?


Then you have this gem from BR, who says Thaksin isn't the main topic of the thread, even though his name's the only one in the title.

So far not a single red nutter has commented on the arguments the paper puts forward as to how Thaksin's policies affected the South.

Even though specifically asked, Stevie hasn't commented. Maybe he's the smartest of a dumb bunch.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Remembering the Thaksin Years on Thaksin’s Birthday | 2Bangkok.com
*
*Remembering the Thaksin Years on Thaksin’s Birthday*

  Posted on July 26, 2011 by admin 

Above: Thaksin takes over – 1995

 Today is Thaksin’s 62nd birthday.

 With another Thaksin-directed government coming to power amid high  hopes from the public, it will be useful to remember the real roots of  the present crisis–a conservative and  finely balanced political system being rocked by an ambitious  billionaire. Initially, a dominant Thai Rak Thai government arose not  because of the expansion and popularity of the party, but because of the  purchase and absorption of existing political factions and MPs. The way  the existing political establishment so easy folded itself into the  Thaksin fold is indicative of the weakness and vacuousness of the  political world that Thaksin was consuming and changing forever.

 The progressive 1997 people’s constitution was intended to create a  few large stable parties to replace the unstable coalition governments  of the previous decades. It succeeded in this goal, but the party it  created was then able to subvert the checks and balances intended to  check political abuse of power.

 It was feared that this was leading to a Malaysia- or Singapore-style  one party government that would dominate all other parts of society  including the press, military and monarchy (all considered informal  checks and balances of the political world). In a system where parties,  in effect, take turns holding power, the specter of a prime minister for  life represented a fundamental change in the Thai political system.

 The roots of the present crisis are not easy to find online. Since  English-language sources of news like The Nation and Bangkok Post change  their link structures about twice a year, it is difficult to easily  find news items from this period (2001-2006).

 Before the events of 2010, there was a distinct lack of on-the-ground  photos and commentary on Thai political events. The coup of 2006  received minimal outside attention. Even the chaotic events of 2008 and  2009 received passing coverage and little in-depth comment in English.

 However, this changed in 2010. During the Red Shirt protests that  year, dozens of foreign bloggers were roaming around the Red Shirt  redoubt in Rajaprasong posting photo essays and commenting on democracy.
 Since then there has been an explosion of comment and analysis on  Thai affairs on the net across the entire spectrum of opinion. This has  coincided with the rise of Facebook and Twitter that has allowed  universal access to express content and opinion.

 This explosion of info starting in 2010 impacts the way the Thai  political situation is reported. Most reporters simply use Google for  their background material. The dearth of info prior to 2010 means the  definition of the present conflict tends to be, “an elite is trying to  keep a democratically elected leader from power.”  This is certainly the  line the pro-Thaksin groups have wanted to portray from the beginning.

 However, the reality is more complex and fascinating. Thaksin, like  all self-aggrandizing leaders who ride to power on the backs of a  neglected underclass, is also his own worst enemy as well as a threat to  freedom of expression. Below is just a sampling of interesting and  controversial news items from the Thaksin/Thai Rak Thai years.

The Claims of Dhammakaya – July 31, 2002
[Religious sect often cited as being used as part of the pro-Thaksin movement.]

‘Foreign debt: We could try the Thai way’ – August 18, 2003
[Thaksin's early repayment of IMF obligations was widely admired.]

What choice do we have? – September 29, 2004
[Early attack on the anti-Thaksin movement that was to become the PAD.  Here pointing out that those behind it--Sondhi and Ekkayuth--were both  failed businessmen embroiled in financial scandals.]

Thaksin and the National Anthem – October 20, 2004
[The aggrandizement of Thaksin--inserting his image into a National  Anthem montage. As with much of the controversy Thaksin courted, there  seemed to be very little reason for this other than ego.]



The outrage of Tak Bai – October 31, 2004

The Tak Bai VCDs – December 11, 2004

Do we have another ‘indispensable man’? – December 26, 2004

Pro-Government forumers who are hired to spin debate on forums – January 6, 2005 

Thaksin company courts controversy – July 16, 2005

T is for trouble in the age of libel – July 29, 2005
[Massive libel suits brought by companies close to the government.]

Thaksin’s wife owns new party headquarters – July 15, 2005

Notes on canceling Muang Thai Rai Sapdah – September 17, 2005
[The cancelling of anti-government analysis shows while pro-government shows continue.]

Thaksin’s Burma blunder – March 6, 2006
[Thaksin maneuvering over the election boycott by opposition parties.]

The Gutting of iTV – March 7, 2006
[One of the keys of the Thaksin years was to make sure there was no  media in the position of being able to critique and expose misdoings of  the government. iTV was a special examples as it used hidden cameras to  expose corruption. Such a unThai-like confrontational approach was sure  to face massive pressure from conventional politicians.]

William L Monson vs Thaksin – May 11, 2006
[Another odd event from Thaksin's business past.]

Extrajudicial killings of alleged drug dealers in Thailand – May 29, 2006
[Perhaps the best known excess of the Thaksin years. However, it is  important to note that these tactics were and continue to be very  popular with a public. This is because in most areas of the country  there is neither dependable law enforcement or courts. Occasional purges  like this are seen as the only way to tamp down the provincial mafia  when they go too far. Also: Chalerm Yubamrung:_ For  drug dealers if they do not want to die, they had better quit staying  on that road... drugs suppression in my time as Interior Minister will  follow the approach of [former Prime Minister] Thaksin. If that will  lead to 3,000-4,000 deaths of those who break the law, then so be it._]

Who wants to lead the United Nations? – June 5, 2006
[An unfulfilled Thaksin dream and typical of the leadership aspirations he had for Thailand: Surakiart as UN secretary General]


(Photo: 2Bangkok.com)
Above: Voting booth arrangement on April 2, 2006 with booths arranged facing out so the choices of the voters could be seen.

The boycotted election – April 30, 2006

BANGKOK POST 60TH ANNIVERSARY: Thaksin appeals to media – August 3, 2006
[Notable for the common Thaksin plea: if the press criticizes him, they are criticizing Thailand in the world's eyes.]

PM’s role as defender of democracy is a joke – Bangkok Post, July 10, 2006

Consequences of Thaksin’s botched foreign policy – June 8, 2010

Book Review: Thaksin and Thailand’s contentious foreign policy – August 3, 2010


Suvanabhumi Airport Runway Cracks – November 3, 2006
[One of the boldest attempts of the government to silence the press.]


Above: Minister – Made in Hong Kong – Arun, Krungtepturakit, January 27, 2008
It reads: Minister. Made in Hong Kong [Meaning that Thai government ministers are controlled by Thaksin from Hong Kong.]
The People Power Party election win in late 2007 resulted in another year of political high tension.

----------


## StrontiumDog

Thai-ASEAN News Network

   

Supporters Celebrate Thaksin's Birthday 

UPDATE : 26 July 2011                     *

A large number of red-shirt supporters in  many provinces are planning a huge celebration to commemorate former  Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra's 62nd birthday.  

In Lamphun Province, the Democratic Alliance against Dictatorship or  DAAD co-ordinator, Sunai Jansawng, along with almost 300 red-shirt  people offered alms to 62 monks.  

The merit-making event was organized to celebrate the 62nd birthday of ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra tomorrow. 
*

The red-shirt supporters in Lamphun then traveled to Don Jan Temple in  Muang District to join their counterparts in Chiang Mai in another  merit- making ceremony. 

A similar event was held at Rong Dhamma Samakkee  Temple in Chiang Mai to celebrate Thaksin's birthday.  

A source reported that Thaksin's relative Chansom Shinwawatra and a  large number of Pheu Thai MPs, along with Thaksin supporters attended  the merit-making event at the temple.  

Meanwhile, Rak Chiang Mai 51 group will hold a merit-making event at Sri Boon Ruang Temple to celebrate Thaksin's birthday.

----------


## StrontiumDog

Thai-ASEAN News Network

  

Red-shirt Supporters Make Merit for Thaksin 

UPDATE : 26 July 2011                     *

Supporters of the red-shirt group across  the country attended merit-making ceremonies on the occasion of ousted  premier Thaksin Shinawatra's 62nd birthday. 

Abbot of Wat Sriboonrueng Temple, Phra Kru Suthep Wisutthikhun along  with about 400 red-shirt people participated in a merit-making ceremony  to celebrate former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra's 62nd birthday. 

They also made merit for Thaksin's younger sister, Yingluck Shinawatra.

Abbot of Wat Ku Tao Temple, Kru Ba Chantarangsri presided over a  religious rite performed to expel Thaksin and Yingluck of bad luck.  
*

Thaksin's shirt was used to represent him in the ritual. 

The group wished Thaksin prosperity, longevity and for his return to Thailand to help develop the country. 

The Chiang Mai red-shirt group also wished Yingluck to become the new prime minister as soon as possible. 

Meanwhile, Thaksin's aunt Chansom Shinawatra gave alms by providing  luncheon to monks on the occasion of Thaksin's 62nd birthday anniversary  at Rongtham Samakkee Temple in Chiang Mai.  

The Shinawatra family is a major patron of the temple. 

Members of the red-shirt group in the area also participated in the  merit-making event but no other members of the Shinawatra family were  present.  

In Khon Kaen, about 500 red-shirt supporters including local key leaders  and members of the red-shirt villages attended the merit-making  ceremony for Thaksin at Nong Wang Temple. 

Both Buddhist and Brahmin rites were performed.

At Pohchai Temple in Nongkhai's Muang District, the local red-shirt group gave alms to 63 monks to make merit for Thaksin. 

The group's key leader said today's event was aimed at bringing  blessings for the ousted PM to return home as quickly as possible. 

 In Ayutthaya Province, over 100 local key members of the red-shirt  group joined hands to give alms by providing a luncheon to monks at  Salapoon Viharn Temple.  

Thaksin's supporters said they sympathized Thaksin for having to take refuge overseas. 

The group believed that Thaksin was ill-treated by the justice system under the order of the then coup makers.

----------


## Butterfly

something to pounder for our red residents here, especially DrB who seem to suffer from amnesia for Thailand History after 2004, the year he moved in here




> However, the reality is more complex and fascinating. Thaksin, like all self-aggrandizing leaders who ride to power on the backs of a neglected underclass, is also his own worst enemy as well as a threat to freedom of expression. Below is just a sampling of interesting and controversial news items from the Thaksin/Thai Rak Thai years.
> 
> The Claims of Dhammakaya – July 31, 2002
> [Religious sect often cited as being used as part of the pro-Thaksin movement.]
> 
> ‘Foreign debt: We could try the Thai way’ – August 18, 2003
> [Thaksin's early repayment of IMF obligations was widely admired.]
> 
> What choice do we have? – September 29, 2004
> ...

----------


## Butterfly

> 


the cult like following of certain reds, including farangs, is frightening

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ Ah yes, but remember the peanut gallery (the Thaksin fan club) tell us it is we who make Thaksin important....

Oh....

 :Smile:

----------


## DroversDog

> ^ Ah yes, but remember the peanut gallery (the Thaksin fan club) tell us it is we who make Thaksin important....
> 
> Oh....


Sitting on the fence getting a bit uncomfortable for you SD.

----------


## noelbino

On the way home from work I stopped off at Sanam Luang. Whilst there I discovered nobody celebrating Thaksin's birthday!

----------


## Gerbil

> Thai-ASEAN News Network


They haven't got those nooses around their necks properly.  :bunny3:

----------


## Rural Surin

> Originally Posted by Rural Surin
> 
> In fairness, one might try to explore the obvious objective routes.
> 
> 
> Which would those be? Let's say an author (more likely an organisation) sets out to assess a government's _overall_ rating - something along the lines of rolling the corruption, media freedom, GDP, Gini etc indices into one "score"..... like the principal's summary of a student's performance using individual teacher's scoring and comments in a school report. The overall rating is still going to be skewed by what that principal sees as being more significant (and thus "weighted") among all the various criteria.
> 
> It seems reasonable to think that Pasuk and her husband share a broadly similar "take" on their subject matter - given that you don't see in their co-authored books something like "I see it this way - but Chris disagrees". I can see (at least in theory) scope for a treatment that _is_ actually a pro-con counterpoint debate - where only the same evidence is used by opposing "sides" for each to interpret. In practice, of course, that almost never happens; it's nearly always the _selection_ of the evidence that counts most - coupled with playing up the "useful" points while downplaying or even simply ignoring the inconvenient ones. So much for there being "no opinion in fact"..... 
> 
> ...


Well correected, Steve. We tend to waiver. Thaksin-critical might be a more definitive form - most would agree. 
Would be a interesting research project to examine the views and commentary of those same respected Thai and Farang scholars during the days of Thaksin's very popular run at the Premiership. What might they have been saying then [pre-critical]??

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> 
> ^ Ah yes, but remember the peanut gallery (the Thaksin fan club) tell us it is we who make Thaksin important....
> 
> Oh....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why is it that criticising Thaksin means I am not being neutral? I really wonder at these seemingly never ending (ill-thought out) proclamations from you and a few others. Quite ridiculous. Why is it that you are apparently unaware of how ridiculous you sound? 

The world isn't black and white. People who disagree with you aren't automatically against you...and therefore in the opposition camp. There is a middle ground. Find it.

----------


## SteveCM

:rolleyes4:

----------


## Rural Surin

> Originally Posted by DroversDog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> ...


Ah yes.....the proverbial middle path. Always a fine conduit to follow. :Wink:

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ One tries...even though the stupid here think otherwise.  :Smile:

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> ^ Ah yes, but remember the peanut gallery (the Thaksin fan club) tell us it is we who make Thaksin important....
> 
> Oh....


Oh how could you!! I thought you were neutral!! That's what you told me!!!

I'll never believe another word you say again, and again, and again, and..
 :stfu1:

----------


## SteveCM

> Ah yes.....the proverbial middle path. Always a fine conduit to follow.





Source: sewerhistory.org
Cutaway view of a typical Roman *street* during the Roman Empire

----------


## Buksida

As usual the nutters are ignoring inconvenient posts, Stevie with his smileys? 

Thaksin being inserted into the national anthem was typical of the stuff going on back then. It's easy to say the red nutters ignored it, but maybe they just weren't here at the time?

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Germany should decide on Thaksin visit : Panitan
*
*Germany should decide on Thaksin visit : Panitan*

                            By The Nation
                                             Published on July 27, 2011                

*Although it has not been confirmed whether former  prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra has been allowed to visit Germany,  PM's deputy secretary-general Panitan Wattanayagorn said yesterday it  was up to each country to decide whether to let an individual into their  country or not.*

                                                            He said the Foreign Ministry was verifying the issue.  Panitan was responding to reports earlier this month that Germany had  allowed Thaksin, who holds a Montenegrin passport, to visit the country.  

 "We actually want good cooperation between the two countries as the  former prime minister is involved in legal cases," Panitan said.

 The Supreme Court convicted Thaksin of corruption and sentenced him  to two years in prison related to the Ratchadaphisek land scandal in  2008. The German government later put Thaksin on a persona non grata  list, banning him from entering the country following his repeated  phone-in addresses to anti-government rallies in Thailand.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> As usual the nutters are ignoring inconvenient posts, Stevie with his smileys? 
> 
> Thaksin being inserted into the national anthem was typical of the stuff going on back then. It's easy to say the red nutters ignored it, but maybe they just weren't here at the time?


Yeah, sad isn't it, but to be expected from such individuals. They ignore the information that goes against their views/opinions. Closed-minded, linear thinkers (which I doubt they will be aware of, or understand...).

----------


## LooseBowels

^ Oh Dear,
The Dustbin twins  :Smile: 

Take anything in

----------


## SteveCM

Circle jerk alert.....

----------


## StrontiumDog

Thai-ASEAN News Network

 

Fortune Teller Predicts Obstacles for Yingluck, Joy for Thaksin 

UPDATE : 27 July 2011                     *

A fortune teller predicts that the PM  to-be will face obstacles, but says that Thaksin Shinnawatra is entering  an auspicious life-cycle.

Yesterday, after a huge bash to celebrate the 62nd birthday of Thaksin  Shinnawatra, core red-shirt supporter, Lieutenant General Pattrasilp  Sudsa-ngaun, who is considered the 'army fortune teller' predicted that  Yingluck Shinnawatra, the PM-elect would form the next government and  govern the country smoothly. 

However, he believes that Yingluck will face some obstacles beginning on December 6. 
*

He said that Yingluck would find it difficult to deal with the Trade Union. 

In addition, after 2 years into her term, she will be harmed by an ill-intentioned group. 

On the other hand, he pointed out that the ousted former PM Thaksin Shinnawatra would be joyous throughout the year. 

It is likely that he will be back on or after December 6. 

Meanwhile, Kaew Fah Temple abbot, Phra kroo Palad Sarn foretasted that  for Thaksin Shinnawatra, this life-cycle would be far better than  previous cycles.

----------


## Pol the Pot

Smart guy.

----------


## Butterfly

> It is likely that he will be back on or after December 6.


the royal pardon rumor ?  :mid:

----------


## Buksida

> * core red-shirt supporter, Lieutenant General Pattrasilp  Sudsa-ngaun, who is considered the 'army fortune teller'*.


Must be a misprint, with the army playing the leading role in the anti-Thaksin conspiracy, surely a military officer could never be a core red shirt leader?

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Germans decline comment on Thaksin visit claim
*
*Germans decline comment on Thaksin visit claim*

                            By Kornchanok Raksaseri,
Jeerapong Prasertpolkrung
The Nation
                                             Published on July 28, 2011                

*Stefan Duppel, charge d'affaires at the German  Embassy, yesterday declined to confirm a report on Thaksin Shinawatra,  saying he would have to contact Berlin about claims the ex-PM had  visited the country despite being on a German exemption list.*

The charge d'affaires is now acting head of the German mission in the absence of the ambassador, who is abroad.  

Duppel said he did not remember whether Germany's decision to put  Thaksin on a national exemption list was related to the Thai Supreme  Court's ruling against Thaksin in 2008. The envoy said he was not  allowed to speak on individual cases.  

The Supreme Court convicted Thaksin of corruption over his wife's  purchase of land in the Ratchadaphisek area and sentenced him to serve  two years in prison.  

The German government declared Thaksin persona non grata, banning  him from entering the country, after his repeated phone-in addresses to  anti-government rallies in Thailand.  

A Thai website quoted a German newspaper as reporting  Germany  had allowed Thaksin, who holds a Montenegrin passport, to visit the  country on July 15. 

Chavanond Intarakomalyasut, secretary to the foreign minister, said the Foreign Ministry was verifying the claim. 

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva said he would not acknowledge the deletion of Thaksin's name from the blacklist. 

He was against trying to connect that decision with the case of a  German company demanding compensation from the Thai government, which  has strained bilateral relations. 

"Don't assume anything by yourself. We can say that only if there's concrete evidence," he said.  

It was up to the new government led by Thaksin's younger sister  Yingluck to allow the former premier to travel to countries more easily,  he said, adding that the new government was expected to treat Thaksin  as any other fugitive.  

Her relationship with Thaksin would be a test for whether  PM-in-waiting Yingluck prioritised national interests ahead of personal  interests, he added.

----------


## tomta

> Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva said he would not acknowledge the deletion of Thaksin's name from the blacklist.  He was against trying to connect that decision with the case of a German company demanding compensation from the Thai government, which has strained bilateral relations.  "Don't assume anything by yourself. We can say that only if there's concrete evidence," he said.  It was up to the new government led by Thaksin's younger sister Yingluck to allow the former premier to travel to countries more easily, he said, adding that the new government was expected to treat Thaksin as any other fugitive.  Her relationship with Thaksin would be a test for whether PM-in-waiting Yingluck prioritised national interests ahead of personal interests, he added.


Does this guy still not realize that he lost the election?

----------


## SteveCM

^
He does - and he's switching into "I'm so bitter and sulky about it" mode.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Germany lifts travel ban on fugitive Thai ex-prime minister - Monsters and Critics
*
*Germany lifts travel ban on fugitive Thai ex-prime minister*

    Jul 28, 2011, 4:15 GMT 

  Berlin - Germany has lifted the travel restriction banning  former Thai  prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra from entering the  country after the  election victory of his proxy party this month.  

  Government  sources said late Wednesday in Berlin that the ban,  imposed in 2009,  had been revoked. The decision came in the wake of  the July 3  parliamentary elections in Thailand, which gave a majority  to the Pheu  Thai Party, in effect led by Thaksin remotely but whose  leader in  Thailand is his sister Yingluck Shinawatra.  

  The political novice is set to take office as prime minister in  early August.  

   Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle lifted the ban on Thaksin's  entry  into Germany on July 15, the German daily Frankfurter  Allgemeine  Zeitung reported.  

  Thaksin was ousted in a 2006 coup, fled the  country and was  convicted in 2008 of abuse of power in absentia and  sentenced to two  years in prison. He turned up in Germany in late 2008  and obtained a  residency permit, but it was revoked, and he was ordered  to leave the  country in 2009 and not to return.  

  The lifting  of the ban has caused controversy in Germany with some  parliamentarians  questioning the possible involvement of their own  security,  intelligence and diplomatic services in Thaksin's 2008  visit.  

   News reports have also speculated that Thaksin, who also holds a   Montenegran passport and Nicaraguan diplomatic travel documents, was   able to visit Germany while the ban was in place.

----------


## Butterfly

maybe he wants to return to Germany to pay for the pending bills on that court order and release the Royal airplane  :mid: 

surely that would be worth a pardon  :mid:

----------


## noelbino

> maybe he wants to return to Germany to pay for the pending bills on that court order and release the Royal airplane 
> 
> surely that would be worth a pardon


Hmmm! Worth considering.

----------


## jamiejambos

Gentllemen,The only reason yingluck entered politics as her brother"s nominee is to lay the foundations and pave the way for his return.....once this has been established,Her exit from politics will be as speedy as her entry !or  am i being obtuse, I think that in the near future and when history is written i will be proved  correct...........

----------


## Mr Lick

> maybe he wants to return to Germany to pay for the pending bills on that court order and release the Royal airplane 
> 
> surely that would be worth a pardon


 


Better still, as he's the de facto leader and despite his denial is seen as part of the new thai PTP government, impound his jet.

Cunning buggers these germans you know.  :Smile:

----------


## Satonic

> Gentllemen,The only reason yingluck entered politics as her brother"s nominee is to lay the foundations and pave the way for his return.....once this has been established,Her exit from politics will be as speedy as her entry !or  am i being obtuse, I think that in the near future and when history is written i will be proved  correct...........


Don't state the obvious, you'll upset people

----------


## The Bold Rodney

> teller'. Must be a misprint, with the army playing the leading role in the anti-Thaksin conspiracy, surely a military officer could never be a core red shirt leader?


A post like this one clearly shows just how little you actually know about Thailand! :smiley laughing:

----------


## Butterfly

> Originally Posted by Buksida
> 
> teller'. Must be a misprint, with the army playing the leading role in the anti-Thaksin conspiracy, surely a military officer could never be a core red shirt leader?
> 
> 
> A post like this one clearly shows just how little you actually know about Thailand!


listen you are a fucking idiot, this has been established long ago, why don't you just fuck off where idiots go die

----------


## LooseBowels

^ He has done you brain dead tit.   :Smile: 
And you prove there is life, albeit limited one-cell-like, after death  

Its so hilarious, absolutely fcuckin hilarious, to see all the sad looser PAD yellow faschist nuttites flapping and thrashin about, hitting out in madness intoxicated  true monkey arse fashion, gurguling dumkopf obscenities, as they slowly sink beneath the cleansing waves of landslide electoral democracy that have refreshingly swept the country. 

Thailand doesn't smell like it did anymore.

Funny init that the Germans should give Khun T his visa back.
Perhaps they found out about something from somewhere.
I wonder where.

You cant argue with that

----------


## sabang

Thaksin can be described as both a victim and a perpetrator of legal abuse. Senior political or legal figures in Thailand are rarely if ever help accountable for the numerous crackdowns, violations & coups in Thailand. Be it the trumped up Communist threat, the southern insurgency, Thammasat massacre, coups various, whatever.

Support for the 2006 coup etc, only ever a minority, has fallen in a heap due to the events and general political ineptness on display since 2006, and now PT has won only the second absolute majority in Thai history. You cant argue with that :mid:  - they have the mandate to govern.

Any enquiry into Thaksins 'war on drugs' would inevitably implicate the military & police, heavily. In Thailand, that means it won't happen. Support for the 'WoD' among the Thai population ran at 90% at the time. It remains a safe majority, and a good deal of the current trumped up bleating is exceedingly hypocritical, emanating as it does from several people who were strongly and vocally in favor of it at the time. But you're whistlin' dixie.

Accountability for the War on Drugs? Accountability for the 2006 Coup? Not gonna happen. You're whistlin' dixie, both sides. Thailand's record of high level impunity will remain unscathed- and given the extent and breadth of miscreance to be whitewashed, probably the practical solution too. It is not like there is a cadre of pure, civic minded virtue available anywhere in Thai politics. Neither is there a strong, independent, impartial Judiciary to administer it.

----------


## Buksida

> Support for the 2006 coup etc, only ever a minority,


Do you have any evidence to support this? On Wednesday, 20 September 2006, Suan Dusit Rajabhat University  published the result of a poll of 2019 people, which showed 82 per cent of Bangkok residents, and 86 per cent  of residents in rural areas supported the coup.




> Support for the 'WoD' among the Thai population ran at 90% at the time.


BS once again. Besides, anyone who supported the WOD was either ignorant of what was going or has no respect for the rule of law.

----------


## Bobcock

I think most people would support a war on drugs, but I think support would not have been the same if the methods and an analysis of the potential abuses had been outlined prior to it's start..........

----------


## Buksida

Most supported, but not the 90% stated.

----------


## SteveCM

> Do you have any evidence to support this? On Wednesday, 20 September 2006, Suan Dusit Rajabhat University published the result of a poll of 2019 people, which showed 82 per cent of Bangkok residents, and 86 per cent of residents in rural areas supported the coup.


Source for this assertion -  and _which_ "rural areas"? The coup actually got under way mid-evening on the 19th. _Remarkable_ - to put it mildly  :mid:  - that SDRU was able to organise a proper and wide-ranging poll so promptly in mid-coup..... 

_"On Wednesday, 20 September 2006, Suan Dusit Rajabhat University  published the result of a poll of 2019 people. The results are that 84%  support the coup d'état, and 75% believe the coup will "improve  politics". Only 5% believe the coup will make politics worse.[146][147]  This should be contrasted with a nationwide poll taken in July that  found that 49% of the people would vote for Thaksin's party in the  now-cancelled October election.[148] Starting Thursday 21 September, the junta ordered the media to stop  publicizing the results of public opinion against the coup, which  presumably includes public opinion polls._"

* 2006 Thai coup d'état - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


".... ordered the media to stop publicizing the results...."? Seems a _very_ strange thing to do if support for the coup was so widely popular as you try to suggest.

----------


## SteveCM

> Quote: Originally Posted by sabang View Post Support for the 'WoD' among the Thai population ran at 90% at the time. BS once again. Besides, anyone who supported the WOD was either ignorant of what was going or has no respect for the rule of law.





> Most supported, but not the 90% stated.


*WAR ON DRUGS: Strong support for crackdown*

_Suan Dusit Poll finds 90% back move despite fear of being killed Despite widespread fears that the government's anti-drug crusade will  lay them open to being framed and killed by either police or the drug  mafia, more than 90 per cent of nearly 10,000 people surveyed said they  totally supported the campaign. The survey was carried out by Suan Dusit Poll between February 15 and  yesterday on 8,674 people, representing 846 communities nationwide, who  were asked their opinions of the government's toughest ever measure  against drug-traders.
_.....

You were saying?

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ and ^^

Polls are funny, right?

90% are said to have supported Thaksin's war on drugs policy.

But just a few years later 84% said they supported the coup to get rid of the same person. 75% saying it would improve politics. 

There's something contradictory about such results...

But then a recent poll suggested the majority of people here tolerate corruption. 

The only conclusions to be drawn are either that the polls are rigged to support whoever is in power at the time, or people here are like sheep and suffer to a massive degree, what is known in psychometric testing as 'socially desirable responses', in other words they answer as they think they should, as opposed to actually giving their true opinion (both are equally likely).

----------


## SteveCM

:rolleyes4:

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ What a surprise, Stevie answered my post with his usual smilie, but didn't address any point I raised. 

Careful stevie, The Bold Rodney will be along soon to remind you that you never answer any points put to you...what am I saying, of course he wont. He only trolls people who he perceives as against him...

----------


## SteveCM

> Stevie


And with that, the jerk circle is complete.




> Stevie





> stevie





> Stevie





> Stevie


https://teakdoor.com/thailand-and-asi...ml#post1738073

----------


## Mr Lick

SD is pretty much on the button with his comments regarding polls in Thailand.

Firstly if the questions are closed (yes or no answers only required) you will get a different poll result than if the same poll had 'open questions', ( requesting a mulitple choice answer).

This isn't unique to Thailand btw.

I think this subject has been previously covered on TD on several occasions and the number of polls together with inferior questions put by those that devise them quite frankly indicates that they have been put together at a moments notice.

The most important factor being that if you don't ask the right questions you will not receive a true reflection of opinions.

Like most organisations in Thailand, poll administrators here appear not fit for purpose.

As SteveCM pointed out so graphically, a poll published within 24 hours of a coup occurring, the subject matter being the coup itself, speaks volumns about the credibility of that, and just about any other poll conducted by these administrators.  :Confused:

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> Stevie
> 
> 
> And with that, the jerk circle is complete.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Consider it a term of endearment.  :Smile:

----------


## SteveCM

^^
_What_ was asked, _of whom_ (i.e. balanced sample to reflect spread of location, age, income, education etc) and _when_ are all crucial. Add to that _how_ the questions are put (e.g. not just was there "push" phrasing of individual questions but also the order of them).

As I've said before, just the fact that some Thai sample sizes are so much higher than the global polling industry's norm (actually what they call the "gold standard") of 1,000-ish for a general population poll has to call into question just how proper/reliable Thai polling companies' methodology is.

----------


## sabang

> Do you have any evidence to support this? On Wednesday, 20 September 2006, Suan Dusit Rajabhat University published the result of a poll of 2019 people, which showed 82 per cent of Bangkok residents, and 86 per cent of residents in rural areas supported the coup.


I have two national post coup election results, both comprehensive victories for the Pro-Thaksin party, plus the fact that Thaksin's government, deposed by coup, enjoyed the greatest electoral margin in Thai history. the only two absolute majorities too, in favor of Thaksin & Yingluck. Do you seriously believe that poll? I certainly don't- and i was living in Thailand at the time. Plus conveniently, the very day after that 'poll' was published-



> Starting Thursday 21 September, the junta ordered the media to stop publicizing the results of public opinion against the coup, which presumably includes public opinion polls.


2006 Thai coup d'état - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Your other point has already been refuted, cheers SteveCM.



> There's something contradictory about such results...


To say the least



> 90% are said to have supported Thaksin's war on drugs policy.
> 
> But just a few years later 84% said they supported the coup


And a few years later, the pro-Thaksin party won a further two safe, consecutive election victories, on a strongly 'pro-Thaksin' campaign..

----------


## Buksida

> Originally Posted by Buksida
> 
>  Quote: Originally Posted by sabang View Post Support for the 'WoD' among the Thai population ran at 90% at the time. BS once again. Besides, anyone who supported the WOD was either ignorant of what was going or has no respect for the rule of law.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You gotta love the way Stevie comes to the rescue of his fellow nutters.

That survey was carried out within the first three weeks of the WOD, a couple of weeks later saw quite a drop (I think this was around the time, Thaksin ordered that numbers of deaths no longer be released).

[8]  According to a survey conducted by Suan Dusit College between March 29  and April 5, 2003, 75 percent of Thai people in all seventy-six  provinces throughout the country fully supported Thaksin's hard line  stand on the drug war,




> Quote:
>      					Originally Posted by *Buksida* 
> _Do  you have any evidence to support this? On Wednesday, 20 September 2006,  Suan Dusit Rajabhat University published the result of a poll of 2019  people, which showed 82 per cent of Bangkok residents, and 86 per cent of residents in rural areas supported the coup._
> 
> Source for this assertion -  and _which_ "rural areas"?


Nation article, 21 September.
Thailand Coup | Phnom Penh Jungle Blog

Stevie, where you here when the coup happened? What about the WOD and the 2001 election?

----------


## Buksida

> And a few years later, the pro-Thaksin party won a further two safe, consecutive election victories, on a strongly 'pro-Thaksin' campaign..


...it should always be remembered that Thaksin was branded a "Human Rights Abuser of the Worst Kind" by HRW, whose rep said in writing, 




> "Our research and that of other credible organizations shows that  Thaksin's time in office was characterized by numerous extrajudicial  executions, 'disappearances,' illegal abductions, arbitrary detentions,  torture and other mistreatment of persons and attacks on media  freedoms,"

----------


## Butterfly

> Originally Posted by sabang
> 
> 
> And a few years later, the pro-Thaksin party won a further two safe, consecutive election victories, on a strongly 'pro-Thaksin' campaign..
> 
> 
> ...it should always be remembered that Thaksin was branded a "Human Rights Abuser of the Worst Kind" by HRW, whose rep said in writing, 
> 
> 
> ...


no wonder he has the blind support of our resident reds like BB, TBR, Calgary and friends

not sure about IRA DrB, but wasn't there also a right wing current within the IRA ?

----------


## Buksida

^ Thaksin is a nutter, supported by nuttier ppl here on TD.

----------


## mc2

> Originally Posted by sabang
> 
> 
> And a few years later, the pro-Thaksin party won a further two safe, consecutive election victories, on a strongly 'pro-Thaksin' campaign..
> 
> 
> ...it should always be remembered that Thaksin was branded a "Human Rights Abuser of the Worst Kind" by HRW, whose rep said in writing, 
> 
> 
> ...


yeh but things got worse under Abhisits leadership.
take media freedom for example, the press freedom index in 2010 was 153 but in 2005 it was just 107. New Zealand was 8.
http://en.rsf.org/spip.php?page=clas..._rubrique=1034

----------


## Butterfly

> ^ Thaksin is a nutter, supported by nuttier ppl here on TD.


indeed, there is a pattern of support for those characters, from GW Bush to Thaksin

----------


## Rural Surin

> ^ Thaksin is a nutter, supported by nuttier ppl here on TD.


Yet, those same _nutters_ are open and disposed to being critical as it applies.
It actually comes down to an overall _anti-establishment_ sentiment and scheme. 
Takki is just a convenient conduit [means] to an end.
Most will admit that elitist power and influence derives itself in hidden colours.

----------


## LooseBowels

The trouble with these opinion polls, the PAD yellow nutters are clutching at, is they were taken at the point of a gun, in a climate of fear.   :Smile: 

Within 24 hours of the junta military coup, and the illegal removal of the thrice democratically elected PM Khun Taksin, what would you say to the junta polster as he pointed his gun at your head?

Obviously those questioned went with the gun, a wise move as it turned out because them very same guns were used in the murders of April 2010.

You can't argue with that

----------


## Bobcock

555...what a knobhead....

----------


## zingerhk

Let the games begin!!!  This is Thailand!!

----------


## LooseBowels

Lets face it the country needs (and wants)  him   :Smile:

----------


## noelbino

> Lets face it the country needs (and wants)  him


Oh! FFKS Sake

----------


## StrontiumDog

Thai-ASEAN News Network



Thaksin to Visit Japan 

UPDATE : 2 August 2011                     *

A foreign news agency has reported that  ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra is prepared to travel to Japan  later this month.

A Japanese news agency reported that former premier Thaksin Shinawatra plans to travel to Japan on August 22 to 28.  

Thaksin has reportedly been invited, by the Japanese Education, Business  and Cultural Committee, to speak about politics and business focusing  on Japan, China and Southeast Asia. 
*

Academics, entrepreneurs and economists are expected to attend the event in Tokyo. 

The news report also mentioned a visit to the disaster-hit sites in  eastern Japan on August 25 to 26 to determine the effectiveness of the  post-disaster recovery efforts.

----------


## LooseBowels

^ Famed International Talisman
The Comeback Kid   :Smile: 

He'll have more visas than Henry Kissinger at this rate.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Bangkok Post : Korkaew: No UDD amnesty demands
*
*Korkaew: No UDD amnesty demands* 
Published: 10/08/2011 at 02:33 PMOnline news:
 The red-shirt group will not ask for amnesty for  its leaders facing charges of terrorism, United Front for Democracy  against Dictatorship co-leader and Pheu Thai list MP Korkaew Pikulthong  said on Wednesday.

 He said the Abhisit Vejjajiva administration had framed the core leaders of the pro-Thaksin UDD.

 Speaking before the House meeting on Wednesday, Mr Korkaew again  accused Mr Abhisit and former deputy PM for  security affairs Suthep  Thaugsuban of ordering a harsh crackdown on UDD protesters in  April-May last year that led to 91 deaths - demonstrators, innocent  civilians, soldiers and police.

 Mr Korkaew and other key UDD leaders, including Jatuporn Prompan and  Natthawut Saikua, were charged with  committing terrorist acts  because of their leading roles in the red-shirt protest.

 All three men are now Pheu Thai party-list MPs, following the general election on July 3.

----------


## Butterfly

> ordering a harsh crackdown on UDD protesters in April-May last year that led to 91 deaths


are they smoking crack ? they must have missed the prior 3 months of patience by the government. Lucky they only shot 91 of them.

I note that not one of the leaders have been shot  :mid:

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Foreign minister pleads for a chance, evasive on Thaksin
*
*Foreign minister pleads for a chance, evasive on Thaksin*

                            By The Nation
                                             Published on August 11, 2011                

*Surapong Towichakchaikul, who rose to the helm of  the Foreign Affairs Ministry to the surprise of many, including himself,  yesterday urged the public to give him a chance to work, but was  evasive on Thaksin Shinawatra.*

                                                            Surapong, known for wearing a Thaksin mask at a rally  and for protesting Britain's revocation of the ousted leader's visa, was  asked about speculation that he would help Thaksin get back his Thai  passport.

"Let me study the issue first," he said. In the same  interview, Surapong said he was appointed to work for the country, not  any individual.

 "I'd never thought I would get this post. I just  knew about the appointment on Tuesday evening," he said yesterday, "I  must admit I am new to this field". 

The foreign portfolio is very  important at a time when Thailand needs to improve ties with Cambodia  and deal with hot issues relating to Thaksin Shinawatra's legal status.

By  law, Thaksin is a fugitive from his home country to avoid serving a  jail term. Since April 2009, Thaksin has been without his Thai passport.  

Political observers suspect that Surapong, a distant relative of  Thaksin, has managed to get the foreign portfolio because of their  close ties. 

Surapong, however, strongly dismissed any suggestion  that he had received this important post because Thaksin had entrusted  him with the mission to bring him home. 

"No, I have not been in  contact with Thaksin," he said, "I have taken up this appointment  because I am going to work for the country. I will do what is right." 

However, Surapong fell short of ruling out the possibility of giving Thaksin back his Thai passport.

When  asked whether Thaksin would get it back, Surapong said, "I will be  studying relevant information first. If the process [to revoke Thaksin's  passport] is not right, we have to fix it."

Amid criticism that  he was not appropriate for the foreign minister's post, Surapong said he  was ready to listen to advice and information given by government  officials. 

"I am going to be in the executive position. I am there to make an informed decision," he said. 

He asked his critics for time to prove himself and promised to work to the fullest of his abilities. 

"I am confident I will be able to do it," he said. He had served in the House committee on finance before.

Surapong  said his policies were to improve ties with neighbouring countries,  restore Thailand's image, and turn a battleground into a trade zone. 

Regarding  the Thai-Cambodia border dispute, Defence Minister General Yuthasak  Sasiprapha said he believed Yingluck should talk to her Cambodian  counterpart Hun Sen about the General Border Committee (GBC) meeting,  which would pave the way for withdrawal of troops in the disputed zone  and the stationing of Indonesian observers. 

The International Court of Justice (ICJ) has ordered removal of the troops.

"We will have to follow the ICJ order but we have to find a way to do it in a win-win manner," Yuthasak said. 

He said the win-win situation would take place only when Thailand and Cambodia saw each other as friends. 

"If  Hun Sen gives the green light, I will invite my Cambodian counterpart  Tea Banh to Bangkok and I will later head to Cambodia for talks with  him," Yuthasak said. 

He said he had met Tea Banh at many meetings before. 

Yuthasak expected Yingluck to make the first move because he said Hun Sen apparently had a good attitude towards her. 

Asean  secretary-general Surin Pitsuwan also said that given Yingluck's good  ties with the Cambodian government, he expected her administration to be  able to improve Thai-Cambodian relationships.

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> ordering a harsh crackdown on UDD protesters in April-May last year that led to 91 deaths
> 
> 
> are they smoking crack ? they must have missed the prior 3 months of patience by the government. Lucky they only shot 91 of them.
> 
> I note that not one of the leaders have been shot


Shitty comment. These people gathered to Bangkok to further their democratic goals. 100 people, whoever they were were bastards and looted

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> ordering a harsh crackdown on UDD protesters in April-May last year that led to 91 deaths
> 
> 
> are they smoking crack ? they must have missed the prior 3 months of patience by the government. Lucky they only shot 91 of them.
> 
> I note that not one of the leaders have been shot


And if I may add, it it still NOT CLEAR who burned up World, maybe men in black? Govt closed electricity and water and so closing down very good (i know) fire suppression systems in central. And vids show men coming in. Oh they werent in red shirts as so called bomb car was left behind only found was "2 red shirts" funny

----------


## Carrabow

> Originally Posted by LooseBowels
> 
> 
> Lets face it the country needs (and wants) him 
> 
> 
> Oh! FFKS Sake


Here you go, take a good look again. *"We want him: we love him, we want more of him"*

*Yingluck looks much better though*

----------


## LooseBowels

And would that be the esteemed, world renowned, internationally acclaimed , highly regarded coup slayer, the one and only Khun Robert him very self in the background there ?   :Smile:

----------


## nidhogg

The front page of yesterdays bangkok post was a hoot.  The centerpiece photo and small article was yingluck sitting talking with the big man.

The much larger surrounding article was a long piece on the selection of cabinet members, and their qualification.  The joke was that, if I recall correctly  yingluck was not even mentioned in the larger article.  It was all taxin selected this person, taxin put that person in this portfolio because, taxin set these conditions.

I though the BK post had it exactly right.  pretty yingluck as the face and figurehead, and fuck all to do with the real politics, which is firmly taxin.

Die hard Taxin cronies are in the ministries that will be instrumental in bringing him back - surprise!

----------


## Pol the Pot

Not a surprise really.

It's what I expected. He won the election, didn't he  :mid:

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Bangkok Post : Japan asked to give Thaksin entry visa
*
*Japan asked to give Thaksin entry visa*
Published: 12/08/2011 at 12:00 AMNewspaper section: News
 Newly appointed Foreign Minister Surapong  Towijakchaikul has asked Japanese authorities to issue a special entry  permit to former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra who plans to visit  Japan later this month, the Kyodo News Agency reports.

 
_Surapong: Met Japanese envoy_

 Kyodo quoted sources as saying that Mr Surapong made the request in  talks with Japanese ambassador Seiji Kojima yesterday _ a day after the  Yingluck cabinet was sworn in.

 "Multiple sources said the Japanese government is apparently  considering whether to have its Justice Ministry issue Thaksin a special  entry permit," Kyodo reported.

 The deposed prime minster wants to visit Japan from Aug 22 to 28 to  visit areas in Miyagi prefecture of northern Japan which were devastated  by the March 11 earthquake and tsunami, according to his Japanese  supporters. Thaksin is also scheduled to speak at a lecture.

 Thaksin has been living abroad for years to avoid a two-year jail term from a corruption conviction.

 Under Japan's Immigration Control and Refugee Recognition Act, a  foreigner convicted of breaking a law and sentenced to imprisonment of  one year or more will not be given permission to enter Japan.

 But the law makes an exception for those convicted of political  offences, for example, and it says the justice minister has the final  say in each individual case.

 Foreign Ministry spokesman Thani Thongphakdi told Kyodo yesterday  that he was unaware about the meeting between the new foreign minister  and the Japanese ambassador.

----------


## sabang

Why bother analysing everything when it is all covered by one single phrase, which was even published in the Wall Street Journal. Thailand's sore losers.

----------


## crippen

Why  do the Yellows(and flutterby!) think that,just because their P.M. was  a puppet,the Reds P.M. must be a puppet too.??? :Confused:

----------


## nidhogg

> Why do the Yellows(and flutterby!) think that,just because their P.M. was a puppet,the Reds P.M. must be a puppet too.???


Well in this particular case, I would say taxins hand up yingluck arse kinda gives it away...

----------


## Butterfly

^^^ Thaksin and friends will be the sore losers again once we have a new coup  :Razz:

----------


## Butterfly

> Why  do the Yellows(and flutterby!) think that,just because their P.M. was  a puppet,the Reds P.M. must be a puppet too.???


you aren't too bright, are you ?

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Thaksin hardly a reliable mentor for Yingluck

EDITORIAL* 

*Thaksin hardly a reliable mentor for Yingluck*

                            By The Nation
                                             Published on August 12, 2011                

*The top conman is far too busy using his PR machine to boost his standing in international community*

For a man who is supposed to care so much for his  sister Yingluck Shinwatra, fugitive former prime minister Thaksin  Shinawatra has a strange way of showing it. 

As Yingluck starts  her job as Thailand's first lady prime minister, her older brother has  already succeeded in putting her in an even more awkward position  internationally than she is in already.

But then again, what do  you expect from a convicted scam artist who tried his best to avoid  paying taxes and instead spent a great deal of his wealth to hire  expensive consultants and a public-relations firm to help project  himself as an important figure internationally - when, in fact, he is  not much more than a pest to the countries he has visited?

The  latest country that Thaksin has brought into an unwanted light is Japan.  According to Kyodo News, Japan's immigration control law does not allow  the entry of a person who has been found guilty and sentenced to a jail  term of more than one year.

Vice president of the Democratic  Party of Japan, Hajime Ishii, confirmed to reporters that he had asked  Prime Minister Naoto Kan to make a political judgement and allow  Thaksin's entry into Japan.

Thaksin is said to be planning to give  a public lecture as well as pay a visit to the Miyagi Prefecture, one  of the areas that was hit by the March 11 earthquake and tsunami.

If  Kan and the Japanese government can't uphold their own laws, then it is  their problem and prerogative. But they can't pretend not to know that a  Thai conman is going to use this visit to Japan to enhance his  tarnished image.

If Thaksin, who has a track record of blood and  violence on his hands, could bring Thailand to its knees on several  occasions, does the Japanese government think he really cares about the  tsunami victims?

Let Thaksin enter your country at your own peril  - but don't pretend that his visit to Japan is more than a public  relations stunt aimed at cleaning up his image at the expense of the  tsunami victims.

The same argument could be made for Germany as well. 

Sadly,  Germany appears to have become the latest country to have been suckered  by Thaksin and his public-relations machine. The German daily  Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung  reported that Foreign Minister Guido  Westerwelle lifted the ban on Thaksin's entry on July 15. 

This followed the election victory of Thaksin's proxy - the Pheu Thai Party - which is led by his sister Yingluck.

Regardless,  it is sad to see a strong and developed country like Germany go  flip-flopping on its domestic policy because of an election result in  another country.

Essentially, it is up to these respective  governments  to decide and weigh the pros and cons of their decision to  grant Thaksin entry to their countries. But because Thaksin is such a  divisive figure, granting him entry will not go down well with everybody  in Thailand. 

The street riots three years ago during Songkran is  a good example of the extent of Thaksin's wrath - not to mention how,  while in power, he wrecked the country's checks-and-balances system,  institutions, initiated the controversial drug war that took the lives  of some 2,500 people, as well as his all-or-nothing approach to the  separatist insurgency in the South that pushed local residents even  further from the state.

Ever since going into exile, Thaksin has  been flying here and there looking for a place to land. If possible, the  man would court local leaders for some snapshots and then quickly  circulate them around the media and cyber space. 

It is just a cheap way of boosting one's international standing. The best way to go about it is not to leave him be.

But  instead of allowing Thaksin to monkey around, the administration of  former prime minister Abhisit Vejjajiva invested a great deal of  political capital to hunt this man down. 

Needless to say, it unnecessarily drained Thailand's political capital abroad.

Yingluck  was elected on a platform to lead the country. She should not use the  premier's office to clear her brother's name even if he doesn't have any  scruples about exploiting his sister's position for his own gains.

----------


## Butterfly

> Japan's immigration control law does not allow the entry of a person who has been found guilty and sentenced to a jail term of more than one year.


good point, and they usually don't make any exceptions

Paris Hilton was even kicked out because of this a few years ago  :Razz:

----------


## Butterfly

> The street riots three years ago during Songkran is a good example of the extent of Thaksin's wrath - not to mention how, while in power, he wrecked the country's checks-and-balances system, institutions, initiated the controversial drug war that took the lives of some 2,500 people, as well as his all-or-nothing approach to the separatist insurgency in the South that pushed local residents even further from the state.


a perfect summary of his regime,

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> The street riots three years ago during Songkran is a good example of the extent of Thaksin's wrath - not to mention how, while in power, he wrecked the country's checks-and-balances system, institutions, initiated the controversial drug war that took the lives of some 2,500 people, as well as his all-or-nothing approach to the separatist insurgency in the South that pushed local residents even further from the state.
> 
> 
> a perfect summary of his regime,


Killing 2500 drug dealers is not an issue to me

----------


## Butterfly

> Killing 2500 drug dealers is not an issue to me


of course it's not, you are a right wing supporter

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> Killing 2500 drug dealers is not an issue to me
> 
> 
> of course it's not, you are a right wing supporter


Whatever, killing drug dealers is not about party politics. Kill em all.

----------


## Mid

so is T back yet ?

 ::chitown::

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ No, but his daughters wedding is December...

----------


## Butterfly

^ December 5th by any chance ?  :Razz: 

any news on that seized plane in Munich ?  :Razz:

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Bangkok Post : PM: No role in Thaksin passport
*
*PM: No role in Thaksin passport*
Published:  2/12/2011 at 04:38 PMOnline news: Local News
 Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra said on  Friday afternoon that she had nothing at all to do with the move to  reissue a Thai passport for her elder brother, former prime minister  Thaksin.

 “I have never interfered in this case and I've left it to the relevant officials.

 "It is a matter to be decided by the Foreign Ministry, but must  be decided in line with the law, and the principles of justice and  equality,” she said.

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ Yet again Yingluck denies knowing anything about issues related to her brother. She does this every time and comes out with the same "in line with the law" type of  rubbish.

Does anyone actually believe this crap?

It's her brother.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by mao say dung
> 
> You raised the point that to address the problem of vote-buying (which I don't see as such a major problem)
> 
> 
> This is one of the main tenets of free and fair elections.  You feel that buying votes instead of votes being cast as an indication of a person's political opinions is not a problem! 
> 
>  That's your choice but its also why such election results are taken with a pinch of salt and are not accepted as truly legit, by many!  Should the red shirts ever get to the point where they can form a political party, they would be wise to clean up their act if they wish to be taken seriously.


Vote buying not a problem? Blind stupid beyond belief. 

Its vote buying sets the barrier that stops all but the most wealthy and if not wealthy, the most well connected candidates being elected who are then completly in the pocket of their sponsors who will want a return on their investment.

Its at the heart of the assinations and violence associated with thai elections.

If the reds were a democracy movement they would be insisting this practice be stamped out instead of pretending its not really a problem.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

^
No let me fix that for you (without changing your post - I hate that)

It should be "Does anyone care, in all of Thailand, of whatever political stripe that this is about to happen since the minority lost the argument in the last election?"

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ Do you mean the 51.87% minority Tom, as Pheu Thai achieved 48.13% of the vote...which isn't a majority of the electorate. 

I know, I'm sorry, facts are so inconvenient...

----------


## Tom Sawyer

A landslide majority of seats in a lower house of parliament under an established principal of plurality - weap away girly. What do you think about the upper house SD?

----------


## mao say dung

> Does anyone actually believe this crap?


So you don't accept all these accusations of Yinglak being nothing more than a "face" and that Thaksin is actually pulling all the strings and that Chalerm is the real puppet behind the clone?

----------


## Tom Sawyer

^
She changes her story as fits her narrative depending on the latest TAN or Notion report.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> Does anyone actually believe this crap?
> 
> 
> So you don't accept all these accusations of Yinglak being nothing more than a "face" and that Thaksin is actually pulling all the strings and that Chalerm is the real puppet behind the clone?


No, that sounds reasonable. Knowing Chinese-Thai families, as I do very well, it would fit with my experiences.

Yingluck is a well-meaning "face". I don't attribute any deliberate malice or deviousness on her part. She's just doing what she believes is right, it is her elder brother after all. Family comes first here. 

Chalerm is the muscle. He is indebted to Thaksin in many ways....he appears to be trying to repay that debt. He is the loyal minion doing his masters work (part of that is obviously to shield Yingluck, take the flack, so she doesn't have to, which I'm sure is related to Thaksin, either as a direct order from him, or to curry favour. Or both!)

Thaksin decides a lot of the policy. Yingluck gets a say, but only on the less important stuff. The overall direction and important policies are all Thaksin. 

It will be interesting to see what Thaksin does, when/if he returns. Can he really stay away or will he back seeking the dictatorship his close friends all have or have had. 

The 111 returning to politics (did they really ever leave?) should be most informative/revealing. Lots of loyalty there....

----------


## mao say dung

^Given all that, I don't see why you find it so hard to believe that she had nothing to do with the moves to get frere Thak a passport.

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Does anyone actually believe this crap?


*
*Yet again Yingluck denies knowing anything about issues related to her brother. She does this every time and comes out with the same "in line with the law" type of rubbish.*Yes, I believe it.

Yingluck is playing the same game as Abhi. previously, whose mantra was very similar.

As his legions were screwing the Red Shirts, he would beatifically pontificate that as long as it was according to the law, blah, blah, blah.

I don't recall PADites calling that _"rubbish_".

In Ms. Y's case, I can understand the reaction exemplified by above quote.

They just cannot get her into the political mud to score points.

Politically shrewd on her part.

But then I forget...she is a political neophyte according to those people.

That is called "_situational critique_"

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by longway

If the reds were a democracy movement they would be insisting this practice be stamped out instead of pretending its not really a problem.


*

I agree with 50% of this quote.

The Reds are a Democracy Movement.

But why the hell don't they come unglued about this vote buying thing.

As I mentioned before, NO-ONE within the political class of this country seems to get too exercised about it.

As much as I deplore it, I take some comfort from Mao say Dung's comments, that in the end, it is not a decisive factor.

No-one claims that the last election result didn't represent the majority of the electorate.

Reminds me about discussions surrounding the practice of torture.

Those opposed to it claim that it does not elicit the desired confessions, only forcing people to say what the interrogators want to hear.

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Actually, could you take Calgary with you as well...on second thoughts, you'd better not, I think he's been hit on the head a few too many times already


*

LOL........................

----------


## Calgary

*



			
				Bangkok Post : Tul threatens to impeach Surapong
			
		

*
_



			
				Political activist Tul Sitthisomwong says he'll bring impeachment proceedings against Foreign Minister Surapong Tovichakchaikul
			
		

........_Political Activist???????........The Amart/PAD media trying to hide this PAD source by calling him a "Political Activist"*



			
				Dr Tui, coordinator of the Network of Citizen Volunteers to Protect the Land
			
		

.......*The PAD narrative of hiding behind what they call _"networks_" of this or that.I expect their "networks" will be ramped up again soon, now that the disaster thing is diminishing, appearing before Parliament pretending to be non-PAD protesters.

There is persistent opinionating from the Red Shirts that this TUL guy is not only Mr. PADite, but also acting as a proxy on behalf of someone else.

This latter point explaining his consistent railing and bravado

----------


## Butterfly

> ^ Yet again Yingluck denies knowing anything about issues related to her brother. She does this every time and comes out with the same "in line with the law" type of  rubbish.
> 
> Does anyone actually believe this crap?
> 
> It's her brother.


sounds like she doesn't know anything her government is doing

----------


## Calgary

[*QUOTE="SteveCM"]Bangkok Post : Noppadon: Thaksin[/quote]*
_[quote="SteveCM"]The Pheu Thai Partys landslide victory in the July 3, 2010 general election, was a proof to the international community that Thaksin was slandered by his political opponents and he is innocence, he added._ 

*Asked whether the move would be an invitation for anti-Thaksin groups to again take to the streets to protest against the Yingluck Shinwatra government,[/QUOTE*].....Who gives a shit.They are the minority and electorally defeated group.

What this quote does highlight however, is the intimidation tactics used by the Amart.

The Red Shirts are starting to get their backs up about this.

They see the PTP and Ms. Y. consistently acquiescing to such tactics and are getting less tolerant of it.

In their role as supporting "_their Govt. and PM_", they are beginning to exert increasing pressure in order to provide some backbone to these people.

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Thaksin decides a lot of the policy. Yingluck gets a say, but only on the less important stuff. The overall direction and important policies are all Thaksin.


*

Should this be true, is there a problem with that?

Is it anything the electorate didn't know when they voted?

They voted knowingly, so the answer to above question, _"no, it is not a problem should it be true_"

The PADites old song of proxy PM's and all that stuff from before, only preaches to their own paranoid choir.

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by walkabout

(re my being banned this from this - I am Nostromo and I definitely did not anything to break the forum rules, expect for disagreeing with you and the dog and I love the King).


*

Huh?

Can someone explain this WALKABOUT statement to me in a dispassionate way and without prejudice?

----------


## StrontiumDog

> ^Given all that, I don't see why you find it so hard to believe that she had nothing to do with the moves to get frere Thak a passport.


It's her brother.

She is the Prime Minister. 

Anything Thaksin related is going to cause uproar. 

For her to not know about it would thus seem to be impossible. Or negligent.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Bangkok Post : New talk of Thaksin passport return sparks critics' fury
*
*New talk of Thaksin passport return sparks critics' fury*
Published:  3/12/2011 at 12:00 AMNewspaper section: News
 Renewed talk of returning a Thai passport to  ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra has sparked an outcry from his  opponents who have vowed to take legal action against the government.

 
Thaksin: May get new passport ‘very soon

 Foreign Minister Surapong Tovichakchaikul said yesterday Thailand will issue Thaksin a passport "very soon".

 Tul Sitthisomwong, coordinator of the anti-Thaksin Network of Citizen  Volunteers to Protect the Land, said he would seek the foreign  minister's impeachment if he proceeds.

 Mr Surapong shrugged off the threat and shot back that it was the  foreign minister's privilege to issue or revoke passports. He also noted  that he planned the return of the passport as a "New Year gift" for  Thaksin, but the passport could be returned even sooner.

 "We are examining the law and we should conclude next week. We may be  able to return the passport sooner than expected," he said.

 Mr Surapong insisted that Thaksin's passport had not been not revoked  by a court of law or the police. It was cancelled by former foreign  minister Kasit Piromya.

 "So I will use my power to do whatever is not illegal under the  regulations of the ministry to give the passport back to the  ex-premier," he said.

 Mr Tul said a fugitive convicted of serious charges should not be  allowed a Thai passport. If a convict is in the country, police are  duty-bound to track him down.

 If a fugitive is living overseas, the Attorney-General's Office and  the Foreign Ministry must cooperate to bring him back, he said.

 Mr Tul pledged to seek Mr Surapong's impeachment if he went ahead  with the plan to issue a passport to Thaksin, who now holds a  Montenegrin passport.

 Parnthep Pourpongpan, spokesman for the People's Alliance for  Democracy, said the yellow shirts would not hold a mass protest against  the move, as they preferred to use legal channels to counter the  government.

 "We will lodge a complaint against the government with the National  Anti-Corruption Commission as soon as the Foreign Ministry issues a  passport to Thaksin," Mr Parnthep said.

 A passport applicant must report to the authority in person, in which  case Thaksin would have to be arrested, he said. "The government will  face a negligence charge if it fails to intercept him," Mr Parnthep  added.

 Democrat Party spokesman Chavanond Intarakomalyasut said the minister  has to explain to the public the benefits of returning a passport to  Thaksin.

 The Democrat-led government revoked Thaksin's passport owing to the  former premier's conviction for abuse of power. "This obviously is not a  New Year's gift for the Thai people," he said. "[The people] want to  see the government help them restore the country and economy after the  floods."

 Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra - Thaksin's sister - said  yesterday she would leave the matter in the hands of the Foreign  Ministry.

 "I will not intervene," she said. "It's an affair the ministry has to  handle as it sees fit. Any decision must be based on the principles of  rule of law and equity."

 Noppadon Pattama, Thaksin's legal adviser, said returning the passport should not be used to rekindle political conflicts.

 Mr Noppadon said the issuing of a Thai passport would not make it any easier for Thaksin to return home.

 "It is a rehabilitation process for those who were treated with  injustice. I think most people know he has been mistreated," he said.

 The government recently abandoned changes to a proposed royal pardon  decree which could have cleared Thaksin of his abuse of power conviction  and allowed him to return home. It abandoned the changes after a public  outcry.

----------


## longway

> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by longway
> 
> If the reds were a democracy movement they would be insisting this practice be stamped out instead of pretending its not really a problem.
> 
> ...


Do you really think people would be paying these sums, if it didnt  matter? It changes the entire character of the political landscape, the  ones who provide the money enjoyed complete privilege from any  accountability.

Why doesn't the PT or the reds take up cases like Moo Ham? It would be a  wildly popular move and a real step towards eradicating the double  standards that pervade thai soicety.

Its because doing this would piss and worry off their real constituents:  the wealthy and connected class that provide the funding.

----------


## Calgary

*



			
				Bangkok Post : New talk of Thaksin passport return sparks critics' fury
			
		

*
_[quote]Tul Sitthisomwong, coordinator of the anti-Thaksin Network of Citizen Volunteers to Protect the Land, said he would seek the foreign minister's impeachment if he proceeds[/quote)......._"network"...Schnedwork"......the PAD, pure and simple.


*



			
				Mr Tul said a fugitive convicted of serious charges should not be allowed a Thai passport
			
		

........*Without mentioning it was a military court and coup administration hoisted into place undemocratically with no electoral validity.........forgot to mention that little detail.The prescription for creating political prisoners and exiles.

As mentioned before, The Red Shirts think this Tul guy is a proxy for somebody.


*



			
				Parnthep Pourpongpan, spokesman for the People's Alliance for Democracy, said the yellow shirts would not hold a mass protest against the move
			
		

 .......T*he BKK. Post thinks it is bolstering its' agenda by quoting two PAD operatives.....why not do some more...I am sure there are more networks around somewhere.*



			
				"I will not intervene," she said. "It's an affair the ministry has to handle as it sees fit. Any decision must be based on the principles of rule of law and equity."
			
		

* .....Same mantra as Abhi used while his minions were screwing the Red Shirts....smart lady!
_



			
				It is a rehabilitation process for those who were treated with injustice. I think most people know he has been mistreated," he said.
			
		

...._Correct!

_



			
				The government recently abandoned changes to a proposed royal pardon decree which could have cleared Thaksin of his abuse of power conviction and allowed him to return home. It abandoned the changes after a public outcry.
			
		

....._Not after a "public outcry"...after an Amart/PAD outcry.Not equivelant to "the Public" as they would like to pretend, as the last election showed.

But stating this as if it is a commonly accepted fact will fool some people.

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by longway

Do you really think people would be paying these sums, if it didnt matter? It changes the entire character of the political landscape


*
I agree with Mao Say Dung, that in spite of this vote buying thing, the election results reflected the majority of the electorate.

It is generally conceded that the Democrat Party and supporters have deeper pockets than the PTP.

If the vote buying thing had been the game changer you suggest, election results should have been different.



*




 Originally Posted by longway

Why doesn't the PT or the reds take up cases like Moo Ham? It would be a wildly popular move and a real step towards eradicating the double standards that pervade thai soicety.


*

I agree completely, and have been very vocal about it, chiding local Red Shirt types.

I tell 'em to dare to be true to their self-proclaimed Democracy principles. 

*




 Originally Posted by longway

Its because doing this would piss and worry off their real constituents: the wealthy and connected class that provide the funding.


*
They may have a constituent element made up of some wealthy and connected, but the majority of their constituents are otherwise.

Election results show it, and this fact has not penetrated the Amart dimwits yet.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by longway
> 
> Its because doing this would piss and worry off their real constituents: the wealthy and connected class that provide the funding.
> 
> ...


Two-thirds of Thailand cabinet are millionaires | World news | The Guardian

*Two-thirds of Thailand cabinet are millionaires*



So, Calgary, which bit of the above don't you understand? Facts, eh! They are just so damn factual and get in the way of wild speculation and fantasy....

(btw, this is The Guardian in the UK...so they are talking about millionaires in Pounds)

----------


## Itchy

> Originally Posted by Itchy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				The UDD is a pro-democracy
> ...



The issue is not that Non RS are not involved, rather what are the constraints placed on Non RS in RS villages.

Given the fixing of a Village as Red Shirt Aligned, where is the protection against RS Allegiance being a requirement to get things done at the local political level?


This RS Village Movement is right out of the Communist methods of taking control of a society - Control at the Grass Roots Level - Allegiance becomes the gateway (open or closed) to getting anything done, for you, for your family, for your business. 


Democracy my ass.

----------


## Itchy

And Calgary, I love your local straw poles, but I have little faith in them.

I've worked in Thailand since 1991, I'm fluent in Thai and I believe I can honestly claim to have strong, trusting relationships with a number of Thai people I've lived and worked with over the years. 

Even with these Thai people who I've known for 20 years I find it almost impossible for to solicit a straight answer when discussing issues that have any kind of conflict attached to them.

Thais are very very guarded with their views on issues that can cause bad feeling.

Yes I would expect a Red Shirt to say that non Red Shirts are not involved, it's a simple kick the question into the long grass answer.

But go try and ask if the Village Head is acting more favourable towards RS than Non RS members of the community and I guarantee you'll not get a straight answer.

----------


## mao say dung

^ ^Point well taken and succinctly put. I am ambivalent about these Villages to say the least, just as I am about what will happen if and when Thaksin comes home and the old guard is free to re-enter politics as themselves.

On the other hand, even in "normal" democracies, especially at City or Town Council level, getting anything done by people affiliated with the group or party that is out of power is equally problematic. 

And I hate to bring this up, but how do you think it is for non-Dem aligned folks living in the South? I don't imagine you can get permission to locate a noodle stand on any street without genuflecting in the direction of the local boss.

Red Villages are apparently morphing into Red Districts now. It will be some time before these districts merge into a monolithic Red Region to compare with the Yellow Region down there, where politics manifest more like a cult than anything else.

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by Itchy

The issue is not that Non RS are not involved, rather what are the constraints placed on Non RS in RS villages.


*

The feedback I received was suggesting that these are the only constraints......non-involvement with RS activities.

Right or wrong....that is what the RS say.

*




 Originally Posted by Itchy

This RS Village Movement is right out of the Communist methods of taking control of a society - Control at the Grass Roots Level


*

I guess one can perceive it negatively like that.

But within a Thai context, it can also be perceived positively, depending on your inclinations.

I see it is a simple re-balancing.

The pervasive and longstanding Amart hegemony being checkmated.

The grassroots....er' riceroots....finally getting their shit together against those who have historically ignored them, enriched themselves from them and stolen their democratic elected Governments.

I wish them all the best and will be there to cheer the creation of twenty more on December 17th.....from the obscure sidelines where Farangs belong in the Thai political world.

If any of you are in the area, join me. We can watch the proceedings together from the sidelines.

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by Itchy

But go try and ask if the Village Head is acting more favourable towards RS than Non RS members of the community and I guarantee you'll not get a straight answer.


*

I will do that, or something similar.

Ask me again after December 17....I will make it a project to investigate the effects of RS Villages on non-RS residents, while I am observing the creation of twenty more.

From me, you will receive a totally unbiased Poll result......you know that ::spin:: 

Questioning how non-RS are disadvantaged in an RS Village?

Quite a turnabout, wouldn't you say.

Heretofore, it has mostly been the RS who have been disadvantaged, especially when the Village top dog is beholden to the Governor, appointed by all those Democrat Govts. created by all their coups.

From that perspective, is creation of RS Villages enhancing the status of RS's a problem?.........Its' about time!

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by Itchy

And Calgary, I love your local straw poles, but I have little faith in them.


*

But I guarantee you, that one will not get a better "window" into the Red Shirt world at the 'riceroots' level.

Whether you have faith or not, agree or not, you can't argue that it is not informative, given the absence from any mention in the domestic media.

Y'all are welcome.

----------


## SteveCM

> *Bangkok Post : PM: No role in Thaksin passport
> *
> *PM: No role in Thaksin passport*Published:  2/12/2011 at 04:38 PMOnline news: Local NewsPrime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra said on  Friday afternoon that she had nothing at all to do with the move to  reissue a Thai passport for her elder brother, former prime minister  Thaksin.
> 
>  “I have never interfered in this case and I've left it to the relevant officials.
> 
>  "It is a matter to be decided by the Foreign Ministry, but must  be decided in line with the law, and the principles of justice and  equality,” she said.


Can anyone identify where in this report (or any of the others) it's stated that YS 


> ...denies knowing...


 about the issue?

Fair enough to criticise the political judgement of not intervening as PM to prevent the FM from changing the status quo (which she presumably could). As previously mentioned, that's a view I share. 




> Facts, eh! They are just so damn factual and get in the way of wild speculation and fantasy....


 - and distortion.

----------


## SteveCM

> ^Given all that, I don't see why you find it so hard to believe that she had nothing to do with the moves to get frere Thak a passport.



_"nothing to do with"_ is IMO plainly _way_ too much of a stretch. As PM, she has both the means and responsibility to stay informed on a matter that has major political repercussions - not to mention the family relationship. Looked at technically/legally, her statements on it appear to be correct. Whether her "leave it to the officials, in line with the law" etc stance is sustainable politically/practically is something else again. In practice, the PM_ not_ interfering (at least to say "leave it be") is a statement in itself - and it will certainly be seen that way.

As PM (as well as before/since), Abhisit constantly referred to the "rule of law" as if all application of it is an untouchable absolute. Again, in practice, that's clearly not the case - political direction and momentum often play a role in whether or not (or at least how keenly) some legal processes proceed.

----------


## mao say dung

^It's a question of interpretation I suppose. To my mind, "nothing to do" just says she is not involved in the process, and I see no reason a PM would need to be. It doesn't mean she is unaware or indifferent.

I would imagine it was decided long before now that as a matter of political expediency the PM would NOT be directly involved so that she could say things like this when the dogs began to howl, i.e. a question of plausible deniability. 

This sort of "formal" adherence to legal and/or bureaucratic niceties is, as you point out in the case of Abhisit, characteristic of Thai governmental process. One can only look forward to the day when it transcends the formal and becomes more or less "real".

I don't think we're quite there yet.

----------


## SteveCM

^The _"plausible deniability"_ factor (well, semi- or technically plausible) is a fact of political life - and not just here in Thailand. Having an underling or spokesperson say/do something obviously allows the leadership to at least "walk it back" later if the howling becomes too much. The recent episode with a Dem deputy spokesperson (Mallika) is a case in point - did she "go off the reservation" or was she "flying a kite" for Abhisit? See Mallika Boonmetrakul: an appalling Thai Politician

As I touched on earlier, apart from _"political expediency"_ there's also the requirement for YS to (at least technically) recuse herself from the decision process.

----------


## Itchy

[QUOTE=Calgary;1951704][B][I][quote="Itchy"
But I guarantee you, that one will not get a better "window" into the Red Shirt world at the 'riceroots' level.[/QUOTE]

Be careful, your on the verge of claiming that what you say regarding the RS World cannot be bettered.

----------


## Itchy

> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Itchy
> 
> The issue is not that Non RS are not involved, rather what are the constraints placed on Non RS in RS villages.
> 
> ...



I believe you've given us the best argument against the Red Villages - It lies in this "Re-Balancing" were we might have pluralism ( a foundation of democracy) we are give polarisation.

It's a long game, but my money is on the outcome being further devision in Thai society and power falling into the hands of the same old faces, the same old families and the same old firm.

A few crumbs for the masses now and then but business as usual, with the real villains, a handful of extremely wealthy Thai families controlling national policy via their grip on the monopolies they hold.

The ONLY chink of light I see is the possibility that the RS form their own political party and elect their own candidates from their own communities.

Absolutely nothing I've seen about PT tells me that they represent the people who voted them in, absolutely everything I've seen about PT tells me they are the same old faces, the same old families and the same old firm fucking the poor like the always have.

Democracy my ass.

----------


## Itchy

Think Singapore, that's the model for the PT.

----------


## SteveCM

[quote=Itchy;1951885][quote=Calgary;1951704][b][i]


> Be careful, your on the verge of claiming that what you say regarding the RS World cannot be bettered.


A fair point (and all people should be aware of such potential hubris/conceit) - but the proof of that "bettered" pudding must be in the eating. Where are the alternative sources of coverage or "windows"?

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> 
> *Bangkok Post : PM: No role in Thaksin passport
> *
> *PM: No role in Thaksin passport*Published:  2/12/2011 at 04:38 PMOnline news: Local NewsPrime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra said on  Friday afternoon that she had nothing at all to do with the move to  reissue a Thai passport for her elder brother, former prime minister  Thaksin.
> 
>  I have never interfered in this case and I've left it to the relevant officials.
> 
> ...


I love how you go to the special effort of copying and pasting different posts of mine in to one piece, just so you can do your often seen personal attack on me (even though they aren't related). It never ends Steve. It seems this special kind of treatment is reserved just for me....

I feel special. No, really, I do. 

Thanks to mao say dung who answered the point. There was of course no point in my replying to you, as you would've ignored the reply, as you always do.

----------


## sabang

This whole Thaksin hatred thing is hyped up, and overblown. Are we meant to actually be surprised that PT & the UDD are taking steps to sort out T's status, and bring him back? Hardly- the real surprise would be if they weren't.

The bottom line is, this never-ending attempt to paint Thaksin as the embodiment of all evil from a small but vocal minority just plain falls flat. No matter how much they blow this non-controversy up in the Press, most people in Thailand just aren't that bothered. I just hope the process does not involve T in isolation, there are several miscarriages and injustices to address.

----------


## Itchy

> This whole Thaksin hatred thing is hyped up, and overblown. Are we meant to actually be surprised that PT & the UDD are taking steps to sort out T's status, and bring him back? Hardly- the real surprise would be if they weren't.
> 
> The bottom line is, this never-ending attempt to paint Thaksin as the embodiment of all evil from a small but vocal minority just plain falls flat. No matter how much they blow this non-controversy up in the Press, most people in Thailand just aren't that bothered. I just hope the process does not involve T in isolation, there are several miscarriages and injustices to address.


You are perhaps forgetting, or maybe were not here, when Thaksin was in power. He spent a great deal of time intimidating the press/media, his war on drugs resulted in the extra judicial killing of over 2700 people and he didn't exactly push civil/human rights in the south.

What he did very well was enrich himself, his family and his cronies.

Regardless, I look forward to yet another U-Turn on returning his Passport.

The Government with it's huge majority in the house and self proclaimed mandate to bring Thaksin home see unable to to sweet fuck all without a U-Turn.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> This whole Thaksin hatred thing is hyped up, and overblown. Are we meant to actually be surprised that PT & the UDD are taking steps to sort out T's status, and bring him back? Hardly- the real surprise would be if they weren't.


True




> The bottom line is, this never-ending attempt to paint Thaksin as the embodiment of all evil from a small but vocal minority just plain falls flat. No matter how much they blow this non-controversy up in the Press, most people in Thailand just aren't that bothered.


You might think that, residing in far away Isaan sabang, but there are a lot of politically active and aware, educated middle-class types who are not at all happy here in Bangkok. 




> I just hope the process does not involve T in isolation, there are several miscarriages and injustices to address.


True.

----------


## sabang

> You are perhaps forgetting, or maybe were not here, when Thaksin was in power.


I remember very well indeed, although I only lived here full time for his last year or so.
The 'thaksinomics' package was an overall success, and probably accounts for much of his popularity, his policy and approach in the south a failure. Etc, etc- some good, some bad. Thailand did not resemble a Stalinist ghetto at all- as some blowhard here once said, neither utopia (although I must admit as a businessman with modest interests in Thailand it was somewhat utopian compared to the grim post- baht collapse years). Yes, corruption continued to be a problem, and has only got worse since. Just putting things in perspective- Thaksin is totally overhyped. He's neither the answer to Thailand's problems, or the cause of them- but the fact remains he was illegally ousted from office.

----------


## Itchy

> Originally Posted by Itchy
> 
> You are perhaps forgetting, or maybe were not here, when Thaksin was in power.
> 
> 
> I remember very well indeed, although I only lived here full time for his last year or so.
> The 'thaksinomics' package was an overall success, and probably accounts for much of his popularity, his policy and approach in the south a failure. Etc, etc- some good, some bad. Thailand did not resemble a Stalinist ghetto at all- as some blowhard here once said, neither utopia (although I must admit as a businessman with modest interests in Thailand it was somewhat utopian compared to the grim post- baht collapse years). Yes, corruption continued to be a problem, and has only got worse since. Just putting things in perspective- Thaksin is totally overhyped. He's neither the answer to Thailand's problems, or the cause of them- but the fact remains he was illegally ousted from office.


You were not here so you can perhaps be forgiven for not knowing the part the Chuanleekpai Government played in rehabilitating Thailand's economy after the economic crash of the 90s. A complete restructuring of debts, rework of the law to enable debts to be managed/cleared and credit brought back into the market. 

Thaksin came to power on the back of Nationalist Campaigning (which incidentally brought with it anti foreigner sentiments) and took charge of the country when it's finances where in very good shape. 

Much was made in Thaksin's Thai Rak Thai campaign of the part George Sorros had played in 'Destroying Thailand's Economy' in truth many of the villains who were manipulating the Bht on the money markets are now in the PTP. 

As George Sorros said at the time, it was the Bht/Dollar trading of members of the Thai Government (New Aspiration Party) that alerted him to the fact that the Bht was doomed. He bet against it, just like many of the then Thai Government were doing, buying hundreds of millions of Dollars immediately before floating the Bht and then buying back in at half price.

But little old ladies gave their jewellery to save the nation.

----------


## mao say dung

> You were not here so you can perhaps be forgiven for not knowing the part the Chuanleekpai Government played in rehabilitating Thailand's economy after the economic crash of the 90s. A complete restructuring of debts, rework of the law to enable debts to be managed/cleared and credit brought back into the market.


Whereas you _were_ here and therefore getting your (cheerleading?) news about the Thai economy from sources close to the government of the time. You are I'm sure aware that there are people, some who were here and some who weren't, who do not take such a sanguine view of Leekpai's responses to IMF demands and the role they played in the "recovery".

And just a quick question about Thaksin's attempts at controlling the media: how do you know about it? I was here at the time and found out all about it in great detail in the BP and Nation. Apparently he failed miserably. 

And that is one thing I will admit the CDR and the Dems have got all over Thaksin; when they silence the media, nobody hears about it from the media.

----------


## SteveCM

*Surapong's passport move 'just a bid to save his job' - The Nation*

The Nation on Sunday December 4, 2011  1:00 am 

 

Democrat Party spokesman Chavanond Intarakomalyasut  said yesterday that he believed Foreign Minister Surapong  Towichukchaikul is pushing hard to issue a passport to former PM Thaksin  Shinawatra because he is worried about being kicked out of the Cabinet.

      Chavanand said the Democrat-led government cancelled Thaksin's Thai  passport because he had an arrest warrant in connection with the  Ratchadaphisek land case and because he was actively providing wrong  information to the public through his phone-ins. 

      "We believe Thaksin poses a security threat to the country, so we do  not want him to travel freely to foreign countries,'' he said.

      The spokesman said Thaksin's passport had expired and the Foreign  Ministry would have to issue him a new passport. This would require that  Thaksin's photograph be taken.

      "The government has a duty to arrest Thaksin since he is a fugitive and  not issue him a passport. Police and security agencies must stop the  government or the Foreign Ministry because Thaksin has an arrest warrant  against him, otherwise the officials involved would be accused of  distorting the facts and the law,'' he said.

      Chavanond said he had heard that Surapong is one of the ministers  facing the axe in the Cabinet, hence he had to show some achievement  benefiting Thaksin, which might help catapult him to a better post.

      "We want to warn Surapong that he is exploiting legal loopholes and he  would come under scrutiny for dereliction of duty,'' he said.

      The Democrat Party, he said, would take action against every official involved in the procedure to issue a passport to Thaksin.

      Chavanond said Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra could not absolve  herself of this responsibility if she allowed Surapong to issue a Thai  passport to Thaksin.

      Surapong dropped a bomb-shell last week when he said that he wanted to return Thaksin's passport to him as a New Year gift.

      Chavanond said instead of giving Thais a New Year's gift, Surapong was thinking of only one person.

----------


## hazz

^^, ^^^you both right. The english media was very much left alone. It looked good internationally and was irelivent domestically. What was not tolerated was decent within the thai language media, revoking licences, withdrawing or spending goverment advertising etc.

----------


## Gerbil

Only a week till the wedding.... the clock is ticking.....

----------


## Itchy

> Originally Posted by Itchy
> 
> 
> 
> You were not here so you can perhaps be forgiven for not knowing the part the Chuanleekpai Government played in rehabilitating Thailand's economy after the economic crash of the 90s. A complete restructuring of debts, rework of the law to enable debts to be managed/cleared and credit brought back into the market. 
> 
> 
> Whereas you _were_ here and therefore getting your (cheerleading?) news about the Thai economy from sources close to the government of the time. You are I'm sure aware that there are people, some who were here and some who weren't, who do not take such a sanguine view of Leekpai's responses to IMF demands and the role they played in the "recovery".
> 
> ...


I read the English Language Papers, the Thai Language Papers and listen to/watch the Thai Language News via Radio and TV.

I do not rely on the Bangkok Post or the Nation as the only source of Thai News.

Though it might fit your mindset to believe that all foreigners in Thailand are unable to speak or read Thai. 

Throughout his Tenure Thaksin made a concerted effort to censure debate and discussion in the media. Journalists, TV and Radio presenters being harassed and in a number of cases simply put out of work for asking questions or discussing topics Thaksin did not want to discuss.

----------


## Itchy

Over 2700 extra judicial killings during Thaksin's ware on drugs.


Any takers?

----------


## mao say dung

> The english media was very much left alone.


No, it wasn't. I recall at one point that the publisher or someone in power at the BP was being investigated for tax fraud or something and there were accusations of Thaksin having ordered the audit and threats of more... I don't recall the details but I'm sure I could find some reference somewhere in my little collection of Thaksinalia. Point is, I got all this from the Post as it was happening.

----------


## mao say dung

> Throughout his Tenure Thaksin made a concerted effort to censure debate and discussion in the media. Journalists, TV and Radio presenters being harassed and in a number of cases simply put out of work for asking questions or discussing topics Thaksin did not want to discuss.


Yup. Never said he didn't. Said it was reported in said media while it was going on. No such protests in the media while the CDR clamped down far more effectively and none expected as most all mainstream media came onside with the Dem-BJ-Army government that eventuated.

I know quite a few farang who speak and read Thai. They don't necessarily share your politics as a result, so I hope you're not planning on going down that particular road.

----------


## mao say dung

> Over 2700 extra judicial killings during Thaksin's ware on drugs.
> 
> 
> Any takers?


Yes, I understand your folks in the CDR investigated that while they were looking high and low for charges they could lay. I believe they let it go. Any idea why?

----------


## Itchy

> Originally Posted by Itchy
> 
> Throughout his Tenure Thaksin made a concerted effort to censure debate and discussion in the media. Journalists, TV and Radio presenters being harassed and in a number of cases simply put out of work for asking questions or discussing topics Thaksin did not want to discuss.
> 
> 
> Yup. Never said he didn't. Said it was reported in said media while it was going on. No such protests in the media while the CDR clamped down far more effectively and none expected as most all mainstream media came onside with the Dem-BJ-Army government that eventuated.
> 
> I know quite a few farang who speak and read Thai. They don't necessarily share your politics as a result, so I hope you're not planning on going down that particular road.



You have no idea what my politics are - you assume them to be yellow, I challenge you to find evidence that they are.

I'm glad you know a few Farangs who can speak, read, write Thai - It demonstrates to you it can be done, it is therefore possible that you too could learn and get your insights into Thai society first hand, rather than relying on others to translate for you.

----------


## Itchy

> Originally Posted by Itchy
> 
> 
> Over 2700 extra judicial killings during Thaksin's ware on drugs.
> 
> 
> Any takers?
> 
> 
> Yes, I understand your folks in the CDR investigated that while they were looking high and low for charges they could lay. I believe they let it go. Any idea why?


Absolutely I know why, because the it is the Military that carried out the killings - But under who's orders were they acting?

Thaksin's policies in the South resulted in creating a massive rise in conflict in a region which had seen a decade of improvements in security.
He was in charge, he was responsible.

Though I accept having the PM in charge of anything is a difficult concept to grasp these days.

----------


## mao say dung

^Any chance you might find it in your "politics" to respond to my posts? I've done you the courtesy of responding to yours.

And just to reset your rather silly set of assumptions: I speak enough Thai to get by and can understand enough of what I hear on the news etc. that with the occasional support of my wife and daughter I feel content that my insights are first hand enough. Planning to get started on the illiteracy abatement program soon.

----------


## mao say dung

> Absolutely I know why, because the it is the Military that carried out the killings - But under who's orders were they acting?


And with Whose sanction/blessing were those orders given? I was here at the time and remember thinking how different the Thai public and the Thai establishment was from what I was used to at home. Many of the same people who cheered the slaughter on while it was happening are now using it as a stick to beat ol' Thaksin. Where were you on the issue at the time? I recall letters in the Post and The Nation from farangs who thought drug-dealing scum deserved no better. Conservatives often express such ugly views.

----------


## Rocksteady

> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by mao say dung
> 
> They started as a group to demand democratic elections and they have not moved much beyond that.
> 
> ...


I hold my hands up.  I have nothing to do with the coups either those gone or those on the way :mid:

----------


## Rocksteady

> Over 2700 extra judicial killings during Thaksin's ware on drugs.   Any takers?


When addressing this, don't forget to justify Thaksin's issue of death targets to Governors with the threat of being replaced if they failed to meet them!  

There's still time for Thailand to do the right thing and have Thaksin tried in the court of human rights, Hague!

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by Itchy

Be careful, your on the verge of claiming that what you say regarding the RS World cannot be bettered.


*

Actually Itchy, I am claiming that (by 'betterd' I mean simply a window on their activities and points-of-view. Not necesarlly interpretating everything they do or say)

I qualify it somewhat as not regarding the macro RS World, but certainly the micro, Riceroots, leadership RS world who in my situation, speak impeccable English.

I would absolutely love to meet another Farang as immersed and involved at the leadership, riceroots level of the Red Shirts as I am.

I don't mean someone who knows a stray Red Shirt here or there, or who lives among some in a village, but whose time is consumed facilitating leadership activities throughout the region. 

Accompanying them in attending many funerals and monk inductions because the status would be enhanced having such leadership present, plus regular meetings with national figures in the Movement.

I just hang around the periphery of all this stuff, and am happy I have an extensive library so I can relax off to the side with a good book. Doesn't mean I don't keep up on the results and discussions that took place.

This in addition to sitting next to a computer desk with 12-hour-a-day, Red Shirt political websites playing constantly. That is where I discovered my lovely, energetic Red Shirt lady avatar.

I would love to compare notes with a Farang living in a similar world.

And you'all benefit from it, as I provide RS information from this level of involvement on TD.

Information unobtainable from other sources and unique in that regard, and most certainly not available on that other censored political discussion Board for Farangs

You are welcome.

I also hasten to add, there are some on this Board with a more comprehensive view of the historical roots of this Movement and how it is interwoven in Thai society as a whole, and who articulate it better than I.

I have learned from them.

At risk of missing some other worthy Posters, Bettyboo comes to mind in this regard.

I don't think many Posters here appreciate his insight enough. His perspective is "BANG ON" and I see the outcomes of the historical forces and current contexts he describes, in all the interaction I have with my local Red Shirt Movement immersion.

Many Posters would be well served analysing his insights and using them as a base of understanding to develop their own informed opinions about Thai political realities.

The foreign media at their cozy little media get-togethers, should invite him as a speaker.

All that said, if there is a Farang equally immersed at all levels of the RS Movement on a daily basis as I am, PM me. I'd love to compare notes.

I saw the occasional Farang at the many Red Shirt Rallies I attended throughout this larger region from 2006 onward, and made a concerted effort to seek him out to speak with him.

None of them were involved beyond the membership of their wife in their village. Although they were all very sympathetic to the Red Shirt Movement, and on that score, we had a lot in common.

----------


## Rocksteady

> And with Whose sanction/blessing were those orders given? IMany of the same people who cheered the slaughter on while it was happening are now using it as a stick to beat ol' Thaksin.


the orders were openly given by Shinawatra with threats issued to those who failed to ensure they were carried out!

Given that lists were put together with no evidence whatsoever and people on the list had no access to a court of law, its obvious why people did everything they could to ensure their name didn't end up on a list...  Life is much more at risk out here than back in your home country and people are very well aware of this.

Does The temple Protest at Tak Bai ring a bell?  Do you remember what happened ot over 70 protesters taken away by truck to an army camp?  This maywell help you to understand the duplicity you  clearly struggle with!

----------


## Calgary

[*QUOTE="SteveCM"]Where are the alternative sources of coverage or "windows"? [/quote]*

(RS Information and insight)

Some are on this Board, and I appreciate them.

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by Itchy

He spent a great deal of time intimidating the press/media


*

I wish Ms. Y and the PTP would take a cue from this.

----------


## mao say dung

^^^Tell me it ain't true, Rock. Just exactly how dumb can you be? I've read just about everything there is to read on the evils of Thaksin, some of it twice and even three times. Hard as it may be for you to believe, you really have nothing to add.

Unlike yourself, who apparently struggles to understand that Thailand is a different place from your home country, I've also read enough to understand that Thaksin is/was not such an outstandingly different sort from the kind of people who've been running things here forever.

While Thaksin was running the war on drugs, he had scads of support, particularly from the middle and upper classes in this country. Now you can whinge about this all you want, but it ain't gonna go away any time soon. At the time, I was horrified by it, but I know a bit more about Thailand now, so can't see the point in railing on about it.

This particular aspect of the argument of you folks with the yellow streak, the constant repetition of "Thaksin-He real BAD!!!", which pretty much sums up the way the establishment has approached their war on democracy over the past 6 or 7 years, is the clearest indication of how bankrupt your position is. It also seems to suggest a certain lack of intellectual acuity, especially since you seem unable to digest the rather simple fact that people with access to the same information you have don't arrive at the same conclusions regarding something as complex and difficult as the struggle for democracy in a country like Thailand. Shame really.

----------


## Calgary

Not being a knowledgable Thaksin guy, and bored-to-death discussing him with Thaksin-haters (who in my opinion are Amart propagandized), my in-house Thai political junkie of many years has quite a consistent Point-of-view.

And she is not a big Thaksin fan.

When I succumb to trying to get a handle on this Amart Thaksin paranoia, she always resorts to discussing the Thaksin leadership and years in power, within a comparative framework to the Democrat Party when they were in ascendancy.

Her experience is that there was a stark difference, in both addressing people's needs as well as the degree of corruption.

She will wax long and detailed, about the massive corruption of Democrat Party Govts. and their lack of response to people's needs, other than their narrow political base in the South.

One example I remember her mentioning, is that the Democrat Party would not allow Rubber Tree farming outside the South, thereby enriching their area exclusively.

----------


## SteveCM

> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Itchy
> 
> He spent a great deal of time intimidating the press/media
> 
> ...


Absolutely not a view I can share. The obvious hostility in so much of the Thai media (print media, anyway) shouldn't be countered with attempts to _silence_ it but with _answering_ it. If that takes increased effort and resources applied through media outlets that _will_ carry the answering, then so be it.

I've said previously that I think the government's declared intention to remove political content from NBT, for example, is fundamentally wrong. All governments need to get their message across - you don't do that by silencing the opposing message.

----------


## SteveCM

> =Calgary;1952443][*QUOTE="SteveCM"]Where are the alternative sources of coverage or "windows"?*


_(RS Information and insight)

Some are on this Board, and I appreciate them.[/quote]_ 


I'm talking about actual information, details etc - not supportive opinions.

----------


## Calgary

> Originally Posted by Calgary
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Itchy
> ...


I think this PTP Govt. should get a grip on who owns this media, whose palms are being greased and by whom.

No Govt. should have to fight the rearguard action this one needs to do daily, and what Thaksin was faced with.

If the whole ownership thing could be balanced out, the trickle-down effect would be good.

I understand the teamwork of this guy Pee Malakul working for somebody, in conjunction with Suttichai Yun from the Nation being challenged, would go a long way.

If this is what Thaksin was trying to do, I wish the PTP would take a cue, and finish the job.

So far, they have shown themselves to be a gutless entity.

----------


## mao say dung

^Of course you have a point and it would be nice if there were some way to "clean up" the media here, but it just can't be done without major transgression against free speech. As I say that, I have to chuckle because there is little-to-no free speech in Thailand now, not even for the government.

A good case could be made for denying the right of the RTA to have anything at all to do with media ownership; problem is they more or less own all the tanks too.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Bangkok Post : The keys to get thaksin back into the kingdom
*
*The keys to get thaksin back into the kingdom*

*A leading PAD figure and prominent academics and activists  debate what a return for the former premier without the threat of  incarceration could look like and what machinations would be involved in  striking that deal* 
Published:  4/12/2011 at 12:00 AMNewspaper section: Spectrum
 There is likely to be an empty seat at the  bride's table later this month after Thaksin Shinawatra's vow to return  for his daughter's wedding was abandoned following public outcry over  the Pheu Thai plan for a royal pardon.

 The convicted fugitive former prime minister's strategies to avoid  prison time _ exceptional circumstances such as a coup excluded _ now  seem to have narrowed to the "amnesty option".

 Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yubamrung announced two weeks ago that  he is in the process of drafting an amnesty law for individuals who were  affected by the 2006 coup. The law would allow Thaksin to be absolved  of his corruption convictions and return a free man.

 Despite the government securing a strong parliamentary majority  following the July 3 elections, enacting the amnesty law will be a  daunting task. Doing so without a clear, step-by-step plan and a deal  with its political opponents may turn the government's strategy into a  fiasco, similar to the draft of the royal pardon decree which was put on  the backburner very quickly as the yellow shirt forces threatened to  mobilise again.

 A leading figure with the anti-Thaksin People's Alliance for  Democracy (PAD), who asked to remain anonymous, said the amnesty law  needs three crucial steps.

 First and foremost, the government has to earn the public's trust  through good governance. The 15 million popular votes the Pheu Thai  Party received in the July 3 elections were not overwhelming enough. The  Democrat Party received roughly 11 million votes and there were around  46 million eligible voters. The Election Commission declared that  35,203,107 voters cast their ballots in the list system and 35,119,885  in the constituency system; in all, about 25% of eligible voters did not  cast ballots. The PAD figure said for Thaksin to return home with the  least possible level of opposition, the government needs to increase its  popularity with the electorate.

 Second, Thaksin supporters need to get their message across through  more credible and persuasive publicity and communication to attract more  support, he said.

 Finally, when the majority of the country is satisfied with how the  country is being managed _ with a perception that Thaksin is playing a  key role in that success _ the government can craft a reconciliation  plan, with an amnesty-for-all arrangement attached.

 The PAD figure said that all political factions would benefit from an amnesty law.

 The Democrat Party needs an amnesty for its handling of last year's  red shirt protests, which resulted in 92 deaths, the red shirts for last  year's violence and for burning down the Central World shopping  complex, and the yellow shirts for seizing Bangkok's two airports in  2008.

 He said political amnesties had happened in the past and they were possible again.

 In the wake of World War II, Khuang Abhaiwongse, the prime minister  at the time, promulgated an amnesty law and a declaration of peace, thus  voiding Thailand's war against the Allies, to prevent Field Marshal  Plaek Pibulsonggram from being hanged for aligning with the Axis powers  and inciting war crimes while he was premier.

 However, Thaksin has been convicted for corruption, and therefore his  criminal status may have to be altered, the top PAD figure said.

 Beyond the three-step approach to an amnesty, some political analysts  also believe a deal has to be forged between Thaksin and his opponents  to pave the way for his return.

 "As long as there is an understanding and arrangement to accept him  back in Thailand, the rest will be workable," said Dr Thitinan  Pongsudhirak, director of Chulalongkorn University's Institute of  Security and International Studies. "It could be one of several  modalities that frees him from conviction and charges by way of a pardon  or an amnesty via parliament."

 Dr Thitinan said depending on how much of a compromise can be struck,  Thaksin could either serve jail time symbolically or not serve at all.  In the absence of a deal, Thaksin's return would be an uphill struggle,  with the prospect of more street protests and division.

 While revealing his plan for an amnesty law, Mr Chalerm said his  proposal would serve as a blanket amnesty for both red shirts and yellow  shirts. But he said the law would not cover the deaths that stemmed  from last year's red shirt protests as they were not a byproduct of the  coup but, he claimed, a result of the Democrat-led government's  arrogance in exercising power.

 When asked if an amnesty would undermine the rule of law, Dr Thitinan  said, "The political crisis has become a multifaceted and multilayered  Gordian knot full of political wrongdoing depending on which side one is  on. The law has been subservient to the power-holders of the day, not  to justice. Ultimately the slate of political crimes will have to be  minimised and cleared for Thailand to be able to start anew."

 Dr Worajet Phakeerat, member of the Nitirat Group and a law professor  at Thammasat University, is strongly opposed to an amnesty law. He said  doing so would permanently wipe out all related court rulings and legal  charges, including those against Thaksin, and the rule of law would be  imperilled again. An amnesty would also obstruct investigations into  previous violence which are meant to establish the truth.

 Instead of a whitewash, Dr Worajet and his Nitirat Group of law  academics have come up with a strategy they believe will remedy the  coup-motivated judicial process. The group wants to nullify the 2006  coup and the subsequent legal actions, including rulings by the Assets  Examination Committee (AEC). The legal actions to be invalidated would  include Thaksin's Ratchadaphisek land and 46 billion baht seizure case.

 "The judicial process taken by the AEC was unjustifiable," said Dr  Worajet, who did not comment on whether the court verdicts were right or  wrong. He said that in the eyes of the judicial system _ if prosecution  was not carried out lawfully _ the court adjudications should not be  upheld. Since the coup was illegal, the formation of the AEC to  prosecute individuals the coup overthrew was also illegal; hence, the  judicial process that the AEC undertook was not legitimate and the court  rulings cannot be honoured.

 The Nitirat group also wants a new constitution enacted to truly return the power to the people through a democratic process.

 "With a new judicial process in place, Thaksin can come back to fight  his cases in a fair trial," he said. "The Nitirat Group's proposal is  based on the principle of justice and not on helping to exculpate  Thaksin."

 Although in the past some leaders who fled the country due to  political reasons were allowed to return home, Thaksin's case is quite  different.

 Field Marshal Thanom Kittikachorn lived in exile in the wake of the  Oct 14, 1973, uprising and returned in October, 1976, as a monk,  resulting in another massacre on the campus of Thammasat University on  Oct 6 that year. Gen Chatichai Choonhavan, on the other hand, was  deposed by the National Peace-Keeping Council in a coup on Feb 23, 1991.  He lived in exile for some time before returning to Thailand and  eventually founded the new Chart Pattana Party on July 12, 1992.

 "Thanom was allowed to return because he was a servant, not a  challenger, to the established order. Chatichai was ousted in a putsch  and was allowed to return because he did not challenge the  establishment. Thaksin is different," said Dr Thitinan. "What [Thaksin]  stood for and his legacy are a challenge to the status quo. If the Thai  masses can only have one patron, Thaksin is not going to be allowed to  be that patron."

----------


## SteveCM

*Bangkok Post : Dems to seek impeachment of Surapong*
Published:  4/12/2011 at 02:27 PMOnline news:
        Legal team of Democrat Party sets to seek  impeachment of the foreign minister on charge of negligence in  connection with the attempt to issue a Thai passport to Thaksin  Shinwatra, reports said.

 Wirat Kalayasiri, head of the main opposition camp, said the fugitive  ex-premier is now under black-list of police and the move by Foreign  Minister Surapong Tovichakchaikul to give the passport back to Thaksin  could be a violation of the law.

 Mr Wirat said the Democrats would both seek impeachment of Mr  Surapong and file a criminal charge against the foreign minister if he  fails to put on hold the plan.

 The penalty for negligence of state official is 5-10 year imprisonment, he added.

----------


## SteveCM

*Bangkok Post : PT: Thaksin should have Thai passport*
Published:  4/12/2011 at 03:00 PMOnline news
The move by the foreign minister to give  passport back to former prime minister Thaksin Shinwatra could be done,  if it is not illegal, Pheu Thai spokesman Prompong Nopparit said on  Sunday.

 Mr Prompong said the reissuance of a Thai passport to Thaksin is just  to give him back justice because his passport was revoked for political  gain by former foreign minister Kasit Piromya of the Democrat-led  coalition government.

 Foreign Minister Surapong Tovichakchaikul has the authority to issue a  Thai passport to the ex-premier as Thaksin is a Thai citizen, he added.

 Whether or not Thaksin has the passport, it will be no problem for  him to travel to foreign countries as he is now holding a Montenegrin  passport, the spokesman said.

 Mr Prompong said the wrong things made by the previous government  should be corrected in order to move forward to bring about national  reconciliation.

 Thaksin has not gain any benefit from the royal pardon decree  endorsed by His Majesty the King this morning, as critics said. Instead,  about 30,000 good behavior inmates will gain benefit, he added.

----------


## Mid

> could be a violation of the law.


and there is the main problem facing Thailand .

It either is or it isn't ,

and NO it does not depend on who you are  :mid:

----------


## StrontiumDog

*AFP: Thai king birthday pardon excludes Thaksin: official

*
_Ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra remains a hugely divisive figure in Thailand (AFP/File, Tang Chhin Sothy)_
*
Thai king birthday pardon excludes Thaksin: official*

  (AFP) – 1 hour ago   

 BANGKOK — An annual royal pardon granted to thousands of convicts to  mark the revered Thai king's birthday this week will not include  fugitive ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra, according to the prisons chief.

Media  reports emerged last month saying the cabinet had endorsed a draft  pardon that could allow Thaksin to return without serving time,  prompting anger from his rivals, but the government later appeared to  back off from such a move.

While around 22,000 prisoners will  benefit from the pardon which comes into effect on Sunday, a day ahead  of King Bhumibol Adulyadej's 84th birthday, Thaksin will not,  corrections department chief Suchart Wongananchai told AFP.

"He (Thaksin) will not qualify," he said.

As in previous years, the royal pardon will only apply to people who have spent time in prison, Suchart added.

Thaksin,  who remains a hugely divisive figure, was deposed by the army in 2006  and lives in self-imposed exile overseas to avoid a two-year prison term  on a corruption conviction that he contends is politically motivated.

His  sister Yingluck is now premier after a resounding election victory by  his party earlier this year, in the wake of mass opposition protests in  2010 by Thaksin's "Red Shirt" supporters which ended with a bloody army  crackdown.

Yingluck's government said Friday that Thailand would  issue a passport for Thaksin "very soon", stoking the tensions with his  opponents.

He was stripped of his passport by the previous  government but received citizenship from Montenegro last year, allowing  him to travel internationally.

News of his new passport comes at a  delicate time for Yingluck as the 44-year-old leader, who was a  political novice before taking office in August, deals with the  aftermath of the kingdom's worst floods in decades.

Yingluck has  not yet taken any legal action clearing the path for her brother's  return, and analysts have warned it would be risky for her to do so  during the flood crisis, although the waters are now receding in many  areas.

----------


## SteveCM

^^^^^


> A leading figure with the anti-Thaksin People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD), who asked to remain anonymous...


Who is this alleged "leading figure" I wonder? With so many disparate voices emanating from PAD these days, difficult to make much of this one.

----------


## Rocksteady

> An annual royal pardon granted to thousands of convicts to mark the revered Thai king's birthday this week will not include fugitive ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra,


Who can forget the dressing down he got from HRH and the string of photos showing taksin's embarassed and ever reddening face?  I'm harldy surprised he wasn't included!

----------


## Calgary

> With so many disparate voices emanating from PAD these days


Ain't that the truth!

Although hiding behind every *network* name they can conjure up

The Red Shirts swear up and down however, that the Tul PADite guy is acting as a proxy for somebody else.

----------


## Itchy

> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Itchy
> 
> He spent a great deal of time intimidating the press/media
> 
> ...


Don't worry she will, she's just a tad to busy getting her men in the top Police slots at the moment.

When the news is always bad, she'll blame the news bringer.

I'm absolutely sure we can look forward to the press being intimidated.


I've said it many times - For a view of where PT want to take Thailand look at Singapore.


Oh and please don't come here telling me you believe in Democracy while wishing the Puppet PM and her Puppet Party would stamp on freedom of the press.

Like I say, Singapore, here we come.

----------


## mao say dung

Considering that there is no freedom of the press now, it would just be transferring control from one group to another, no?

----------


## StrontiumDog

^^ The press were already told to behave....the word used was "reconciliation", the official line being that news outlets/the media should try to avoid a tone/pieces that may promote conflict. In other words, behave.....

NNBT was closed down...............



Last updates there were the 31st of October 2011.

The boss of MCOT removed ( *Bangkok Post : MCOT president sacked )*. There was also a reshuffle on the board.

And then there's the Printing Act......possibly one of the most dangerous pieces of legislation ever proposed here in recent times in relation to press/media freedom. 

From today's piece from Voranai...............

Bangkok Post : You'll need a shovel

_The cabinet tried to sneak through a bill to amend the Printing Act,  which would have given Pol Gen Priewpan the power to censor, ban and  close down media outlets. The council of state advised against it, there  was some public outrage, it was shelved. But Culture Minister Sukumol  Khunploem said the government may consider it again after the floods  have receded._

And then there's Voice TV, some pro-Pheu Thai people being given airtime, the ending of shows on TV critical of this government....and of course no improvement in the amount of website blocking going on. 

It is just like Thaksin's Thailand all over again. Except it could potentially be a lot  worse. I really hope they don't try to get the Printing Act through. That'll be the end of any form of press freedom here.

----------


## Calgary

*^^^*
*




 Originally Posted by Itchy

Oh and please don't come here telling me you believe in Democracy while wishing the Puppet PM and her Puppet Party would stamp on freedom of the press.


*

Well Itchy, here I come.

But isn't it wonderful we can talk about Democracy and all that good stuff. Imagine being on that other Board. You wouldn't have to put up with guys like me.

The puppet PM and her Puppet Party were elected by voters who knew they could be a Puppet PM and Puppet Party.....elected democratically I might add, albeit a faulty electoral exercise.....but better than no electoral exercise at all.

Thaksin beat the shit out of them again....AGAIN!

The old PAD saw of "_proxy PM's_" they used to repeat ad-nauseum with respect to Samak and Somchai just doesn't hold water anymore.

Just goes to show this electorate never accepted the Amart Coup.

The Amart media will be happy to continue attacking a Govt. not of their choosing, and if the other side begins to finally, FINALLY fight back, only their own accolytes would believe their screaming about "_freedom of the Press_".

The electoral majority who have been pissed off with this media attacking their electoral choice will see through the smoke and mirrors. 

What got their goat more than anything, was their unapologetic use of a national disaster with their constant "FROC Flogging"

Had to get it in there somewhere....dont you just love that term...FROC Flogging,.....Has a ring to it, doesn't it.

A little like "_Propaganda laundering_" using Researchy type vehicles.

Sometimes just a few words, say a lot.

----------


## hazz

> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Itchy
> 
> He spent a great deal of time intimidating the press/media
> 
> ...


This has to be one of the most disappointing things you have ever said. 

Have you ever considered the nature of life in countries that have the kind of strict press control, intimidation and censorship you are promoting. Well there is singapore, but what of the others. those lovely  'democratic republics' come to mind, but generally very nice for the ruling elite, that you despise so much. 

The democratic framework has been successful because its ability to remove bad governments from office without loss of live or damage to the economy. An essential part of this, is a critical press. when the government does wrong it should be called out. one thing europe has proved is that a critical press and a press biased to vested interests does not stop progress to a fairer or juster society.

----------


## SteveCM

Just so difficult to find pieces critical of the government these days. Sometimes one has to look through The Notion, Bangkok Post and TANN  for anything up to 30 seconds before coming across one. Apparently much the same in the Thai-language press.

Interesting how ASTV arose phoenix-like from its financial ashes...... Blue Sky now available for Abhisit & Co..... the full range of mainstream terrestrial channels - as well as a large clutch of satellite/cable ones - continuing as before.

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ There's a lot to criticise. 

And yes, I know that was yet another one of your 'completely missing the point of my post, but i cant help myself in passing comment" type of posts Steve. 

There's a good (Pavlov's) dog

----------


## Calgary

*^*
*




 Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

^ There's a lot to criticise.


*

Yeah, one side criticising them for doing too much, the other for doing too little.

----------


## hazz

^^^Yes the press is very critical of the government, quite a bit of it rabidly unfair too. but consider the alternative of the compliant press before and during the war of drugs. If it had been a little less compliant, it would have lost public and political support much sooner. A few more people might be alive and a lot families would have been spared having their assets frozen the utter destruction it caused.

For almost everyone in this country nothing good will come out of legislating a compliant press

----------


## SteveCM

^Neither is a happy situation - but the notion (all it is) that all debate/criticism is being shut down is (to put it kindly) fanciful. NNBT has indeed not been updated since October 31st - but that does not mean "closed down". Even if it _has_ been (activities possibly consolidated into the much better-resourced MCOT? - I don't know), it comes under the government's own PR Dept - i.e. it's a government-controlled "mouthpiece". A bit rich to cite that as part of the catalogue of muzzling criticism of the government.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> ^Neither is a happy situation - but the notion (all it is) that all debate/criticism is being shut down is (to put it kindly) fanciful. NNBT has indeed not been updated since October 31st - but that does not mean "closed down". Even if it _has_ been (activities possibly consolidated into MCOT? - I don't know), it comes under the government's own PR Dept - i.e. it's a government-controlled "mouthpiece". A bit rich to cite that as part of the catalogue of muzzling criticism of the government.


A bit naive of you Steve (I'm being kind). 

NNBT was firmly under Democrat control. It was very much a government mouthpiece for the duration of their tenure. It was an extremely busy portal until it ended, much more so than the bland MCOT. So, I guess it is possible to assume that there were a lot of people sympathetic to the Democrats working there. Sacking and hiring new staff would be a lengthy task. It is logical that Pheu Thai would want those people out...and their own people in. 

Oddly the same thing happened here too Thailand News Update Online, Bangkok Crisis Flood Situation (Thai front-page last updated 28th September, English section last updated early November), which is an MCOT operated website and we all know what happened at MCOT...out with the old, in with the new....

I'm sure the NNBT and TNA news portals suddenly stopping is just pure coincidence, right Steve? 

I haven't bothered to check other MCOT operated/owned sites/outlets, but you can if you wish....here's a nice list of what the government is now in control of....(I know, imagine, lots of government owned media...where's Calgary to tell us how so much of the media is critical of this government again). 

MCOT - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

_Headquartered in Bangkok,  MCOT operates a television station, Modernine TV (formerly Channel  9),MCOT Sattlelite TV (MCOT TV - ASEAN TV), and a nationwide network of  62 radio stations. The company also owns TV Channel 3, but contracts the management of that station out to a private operator, BEC World. In addition, MCOT operates the Thai News Agency (TNA) wire service._

I imagine NNBT and TNA will re-emerge at some point, with a different tone and different staff. However both haven't been updated for some time now. 

Of course, this isn't "muzzling criticism" Steve....No, it is "reconciliation". I'm sure the Printing Act is part of "reconciliation" too. 

There's a good dog Steve.

----------


## SteveCM

Given the generally abysmal cut & paste press release distribution standard of what has long emerged from both TNA (_already_ part of MCOT) and NNBT, I see no problem/delay in placing new (_if_ they were even needed) English-proficient quasi copy-typist staff in either outfit. As already mentioned, consolidating the output of either/both through the better-resourced (particularly in multi-media) MCOT makes sense; certainly the MCOT "brand' has been more active of late. As I recall, it was the MCOT board that removed the chief - oh, but of course, they would have been so easily got at..... so let's say they _were_ got at. Now, I'm inclined to accept the glaringly obvious reality that any Dem-appointed/Dem-loyal head honcho in any outfit has a short shelf life under a new government - but I also accept the equally obvious truth that Thai underlings are well versed in changing tack as required when the prevailing winds change.

Still, none of this will make the slightest impression on those who choose to ignore the fact that _all_ of MCOT (let's also throw in NBT and even Voice TV - why not?) amounts to just a tiny fraction of the ongoing Thai media scene.

----------


## LooseBowels

> And I hate to bring this up, but how do you think it is for non-Dem aligned folks living in the South? I don't imagine you can get permission to locate a noodle stand on any street without genuflecting in the direction of the local boss.


Thats holed a few gormless arguments below the waterline.

You never hear the PAD yellow nutters on that little faschist stitch up down there do you :Smile:

----------


## LooseBowels

> Over 2700 extra judicial killings during Thaksin's ware on drugs.
> 
> 
> Any takers?


Name any?  :Smile:

----------


## LooseBowels

> ou have no idea what my politics are - you assume them to be yellow


I'll wager you are not posting from your new, government provided, Tablet PC :Smile:

----------


## sabang

Of course one can see from the cowering, intimidated tone of the domestic press how utterly petrified they are by the heavy handed censorship of this PT government. No doubt it is being deliberately repressed by the Stalinist (or is that Thaksinist) government and it's minions, so perhaps we should try and keep count-

How many regional radio stations have been closed down at the point of a gun under Yingluck?
How many anti-PT journalists and bloggers have been charged with LM for politicising the Monarchy?
How many death threats have been made against foreign journalists?
How many pro-Yellow/ pro Democrat publications have been closed down?
How much internet has been blocked in Thailand to sites deemed anti-PT?
How much time has Sondhi done in jail for his several libel convictions? Or bankruptcies & bad debts?

Truly scary, indeed- Big Brother is watching you. Bring back the enlightened democratic freedoms of the military junta and their appointed Abhisit government, I say. Even though the people don't want them, at least we won't read about in the press.

----------


## LooseBowels

> There's a lot to criticise.


Speak for yourself  :Smile: 

You can't argue with that

----------


## Calgary

> ^Neither is a happy situation - but the notion (all it is) that all debate/criticism is being shut down is (to put it kindly) fanciful. NNBT has indeed not been updated since October 31st - but that does not mean "closed down". Even if it _has_ been (activities possibly consolidated into the much better-resourced MCOT? - I don't know), it comes under the government's own PR Dept - i.e. it's a government-controlled "mouthpiece". A bit rich to cite that as part of the catalogue of muzzling criticism of the government.


I will defer to your greater knowledge in this regard, but to single out one exception to an overwhelming media attack machine, is hardly comforting to the recipients of that assault.

*EDIT:* Actually, I note in a later Post, you make the same point SteveCM.

----------


## Calgary

> Of course one can see from the cowering, intimidated tone of the domestic press how utterly petrified they are by the heavy handed censorship of this PT government. No doubt it is being deliberately repressed by the Stalinist (or is that Thaksinist) government and it's minions, so perhaps we should try and keep count-
> 
> How many regional radio stations have been closed down at the point of a gun under Yingluck?
> How many anti-PT journalists and bloggers have been charged with LM for politicising the Monarchy?
> How many death threats have been made against foreign journalists?
> How many pro-Yellow/ pro Democrat publications have been closed down?
> How much internet has been blocked in Thailand to sites deemed anti-PT?
> How much time has Sondhi done in jail for his several libel convictions? Or bankruptcies & bad debts?
> 
> Truly scary, indeed- Big Brother is watching you. Bring back the enlightened democratic freedoms of the military junta and their appointed Abhisit government, I say. Even though the people don't want them, at least we won't read about in the press.


*WOW, HELL-OF-A-POST.*

----------


## Calgary

Not sure if this is the correct thread for this item, but never mind.

Going to a meeting later this morning, the purpose of which demonstrates the advantages there are to "_strength in numbers_" vis-a-vis the Red Shirts.

They are creating a "_foundation_" of sorts, designed to provide Funeral insurance to members.

So many times, the attendance by local leaders to attend Funerals is accompanied by making expected donations (or envelopes as they call 'em).

This '_foundation_' will provide some funding assistance for RS funerals.

Apparently the Govt. has a fund matching program which they will take advantage of.

My experience with an existing co-operative funeral insurance program was not good. The insurance funds arrived six months after the event.

With this RS initiative, the leaders will arrive with funds in hand the day of the event, when it is needed most.

December 10th a RS gathering in Bangkok, and December 17th, inauguration of twenty RS Villages not far from here.

I know y'all want to be in the know on these things.

Tell your friends on that other Board who wouldn't have a clue about these things, considering the constraints within which they are allowed to see such information.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Bangkok Post : Thaksin barred as thousands given freedom
*
*Thaksin barred as thousands given freedom*

*Pardoned inmates to be  released within 90 days* 
Published:  5/12/2011 at 12:00 AMNewspaper section: News
 Ex-prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra is  disqualified for the royal pardon which has been granted to 26,000  inmates to mark His Majesty the King's 84th birthday today.

 Authorised by the constitution and the Criminal Procedure Code, the  King made the announcement in the Royal Gazette, dated Dec 3, to give  wrongdoers an opportunity to start a new life and be good persons to  serve the nation.

 However, the royal pardon does not extend to Thaksin, who fled the  country to avoid serving a two-year jail term handed to him in 2008 by  the Supreme Court for abusing his power as prime minister to help his  then-wife Potjaman na Pombejra to buy state-owned land on Ratchadaphisek  Road in Bangkok in 2003.

 By law, the royal pardon applies only to inmates who have served at  least part of their punishment for crimes not related to drugs. But this  year, drug convicts sentenced to less than eight years in jail could  have their terms reduced by the pardon if they have been good inmates.

 Earlier the government of Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra, the  youngest sister of Thaksin, was believed to have drafted a royal decree  seeking to include Thaksin in the royal pardon.

 While this was roundly backed by red shirt supporters, who want  Thaksin to return to Thailand from his self-exile, anti-Thaksin groups,  including the yellow-shirt People's Alliance for Democracy, were  fiercely opposed.

 Ms Yingluck herself announced later that the government had not  included the name of her elder brother in the royal decree, though she  accepted her Pheu Thai Party included among its election promises that  it would bring him back to Thailand.

 The final version of the royal decree, which has been approved by the King, has satisfied the opposition Democrat Party.

 Democrat MP for Nakhon Si Thammarat Thepthai Senpong yesterday  thanked the government for "listening to people's voice" and for  "following the same convention of the preceding government".

 The important details in the royal pardon are not different from  those drafted by the Democrat Party when it led government, he said.

 However, Mr Thepthai wanted the Yingluck government to make its  stance clearer on how it will handle Thaksin's case. He doubted the  government would ask the Foreign Affairs Ministry to work on a plan to  issue Thaksin a new passport and help along his return.

 In the case of Thaksin's arrest warrant, he said: "If the government  has still allowed its people to meet Thaksin, why don't they revoke the  warrant in order to protect the rule of law?"

 Meanwhile, Pheu Thai spokesman Prompong Nopparit, in his response to  the royal pardon, said its announcement proves the government does not  do things to favour Thaksin.

 After the announcement, the Department of Corrections is preparing to  release the first batch of 12,000 inmates on Dec 8, said department  chief Suchat Wongananchai.

 The remainder will be granted their freedom within 90 days of the royal pardon taking effect, Mr Suchat added.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Bangkok Post : Legal threat to Surapong over passport
*
*Legal threat  to Surapong over passport*
Published:  5/12/2011 at 12:00 AMNewspaper section: News
 The Democrat Party is considering seeking to  impeach and file a lawsuit against Foreign Minister Surapong  Tovichakchaikul who last week said he would issue a passport to Thaksin  Shinawatra.

 Since the self-exiled former prime minister is still facing arrest  warrants, it would not be right for Mr Surapong to grant him a passport,  Democrat MP for Songkhla Wirat Kalayasiri, who is head of the party's  legal team, said yesterday.

 If Mr Surapong does issue the passport, he could be deemed in breach  of the law and the Democrats would press a malfeasance suit against him  as well as seek to impeach him, Mr Wirat said.

 
_Foreign Minister Surapong Towijakchaikul has defended both himself,  and his campaign to get ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra back to Thailand._

  Mr Surapong said the threat of impeachment did not worry him as he  was on a similar path, but going in the opposite direction, of former  foreign minister Kasit Piromya when he revoked Thaksin's passport.

  He dismissed claims that he wanted to please Thaksin to survive a new  cabinet reshuffle, saying such a move was not necessary as he had been  performing his duties well, especially in boosting relations with  neighbouring countries.

 "A foreign minister who cannot speak English like me can still call  to speak directly with the Burmese foreign minister. Perhaps the  Democrats should have asked themselves if they ever have been able to do  so," he said in an apparent jibe at Mr Kasit.

 Last week, Mr Surapong said it was the foreign minister's privilege  to issue or revoke passports and he planned to return the passport as a  "New Year gift".

 Pheu Thai spokesman Prompong Nopparit, meanwhile, said if it was not  against the law, he thought returning a passport to Thaksin would be  tantamount to giving him justice.

 Thaksin's legal adviser Noppadon Pattama said the former premier knew  of Mr Surapong's passport pledge, but he did not want to get involved  for fear of being perceived as meddling with the government.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by sabang
> 
> 
> Of course one can see from the cowering, intimidated tone of the domestic press how utterly petrified they are by the heavy handed censorship of this PT government. No doubt it is being deliberately repressed by the Stalinist (or is that Thaksinist) government and it's minions, so perhaps we should try and keep count-
> 
> How many regional radio stations have been closed down at the point of a gun under Yingluck?
> How many anti-PT journalists and bloggers have been charged with LM for politicising the Monarchy?
> How many death threats have been made against foreign journalists?
> How many pro-Yellow/ pro Democrat publications have been closed down?
> ...


Not really, only someone as badly informed as you are would think so....

Here's a fact which addresses at least one of the above points. Much of the other questions Sabang asks, which of course he doesn't supply answers to, are irrelevant and spurious at best, but because it reinforces your rather myopic beliefs, of course to you, it is a "hell-of-a-post". More proof, as if any were needed, of how limited your intellect is. 

Notice the dates on the below. 

RichardBarrow   Paknam Web Network                                                   

_Thailand: ICT Ministry asked Facebook to block 26,000 URL in Aug-Sept & 60,000 URL in Oct-Nov /via [at]sunaibkk_

----------


## longway

> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by longway
> 
> Do you really think people would be paying these sums, if it didnt matter? It changes the entire character of the political landscape
> 
> ...


Its not what I meant, I meant that in general terms vote buying sets the character of the political landscape.

It serves as a barrier to entry, it affects the character of those who choose to become politicians, it changes how these politicians act once elected, it has links to political violence and the prevalence of organised crime figures in thai politics, in short the distorts the whole fabric of politics in thailand. Its poison to democracy; yet the reds fudge this issue.

The reds have 5 years to come up with ideas on making Thailand more democratic, yet they never address any issues that do not benefit Thaksin and the PT. Why? 

The double standards isssue is a prime example, thai society is littered with stunning cases of injustice due to double standards, but these are never touched by the reds, only Thaksin's case is on their lips. why focus on such a marginal and controversial case, when far better ones abound?

The answer is of course money, and they would piss off and scare their real constituents. So how are the reds a democracy movement?

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Bangkok Post : Senator: Give Thaksin a passport
*
*Senator: Give Thaksin a passport*
Published:  5/12/2011 at 03:48 PMOnline news:
 Si Sa Ket Senator Jittipoj Wiriyarote says he  backs the controversial move to issue a new Thai passport to ousted  prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

 Mr Jittipoj said on Monday it was possible the withdrawal of Thaksin's passport by the previous government could be "illegal".

Like  an identity card, a passport was used to identify its holder, so he saw  no reason to cancel it, even though the holder was convicted of an  offence.

He wondered whether other offenders also have their ID cards seized.

Thaksin’s  passport was cancelled during the tertm of the Democrat-led government  after he fled overseas to evade a two-year jail term for abuse of power  while prime minister.

The Supreme Court in 2008 found him guilty of  helping his then-wife Potjaman na Pombejra buy prime state-owned land in  Ratchadaphisek area in 2003.

Foreign Minister Surapong  Tovichakchaikul said recently Thaksin’s passport was revoked by former  foreign minister Kasit Piromya, not by the court or police, and he  planned to return the passport to Thaksin as a “New Year gift.”

His  move has drawn questions from the Democrats, who want the government of  Yingluck Shinawatra, the youngest sister of Thaksin, to clarify its  position on the handling of the Thaksin case.

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by longway

thai society is littered with stunning cases of injustice due to double standards, but these are never touched by the reds, only Thaksin's case is on their lips.


*

Such a singular focus as you suggest is just not true.

I live amongst Red Shirts, have been with them every step of the way since their inception after the 2006 coup, and such singularity you suggest is exactly the characterization the propagandized media and their Amart sponsors has been trying to denigrate them with.

Damn, I hate to talk about Thaksin, but it seems cannot be avoided.

True he is a big player in this general scheme of things, and all voters voted knowledgably, but such simple singularity you accuse the Reds of would piss a lot of them off, because of its misrepresentation.

It would certainly anger the local Reds with whom I am immersed, because they are not significant fans of Mr. Thaksin. Especially considering the lame performance of the PTP so far, being intimidated by the Amart.

It also shows the scary effectiveness of propaganda.

The Nation would love your statement. 

They would dust off their hands gleefully proclaiming, _"Damn, we sure sold that one, didn't we"_

If anyone could be accused of singular focus on Thaksin it would be the paranoid media and their sponsors vis-a-vis Thaksin, to the exclusion of reporting about any other Govt. initiatives.

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by Bkk. Post

Si Sa Ket Senator Jittipoj Wiriyarote says he backs the controversial move


*

Just because the PAD has a Thakisn paranoia, doesn't make this a controversial move.

*




 Originally Posted by Bkk. Post

Thaksin’s passport was cancelled during the tertm of the Democrat-led government after he fled overseas


*

This Amart media sure trying to make a political conviction by a military coup administration sound legitimate, with references to "_fleeing overseas_"

Their choice of language is always PADite laden.

----------


## mao say dung

^Calgary, it's nice to hear that the Reds have emotions and that things unrelated to Thaksin "piss them off", but that doesn't say all that much about what they are doing as a political movement pressing for democratic reform in Thailand.

It seems that the PTP, which is not the same thing at all as the UDD, is preparing to start clamping down on free speech and is apparently quite content to let LM abuses continue without even a comment. Surely this is something that Reds, or at least factions within the UDD, should be speaking out about, and making sure that  some message related to these issues is getting out to a wider, hopefully international audience. After all, they often used English signs and directed their protest at international agencies like the UN while the press for elections was on.

Or is it more or less the case that with the election behind them and the PT in power, the UDD has achieved the only concrete goal they had?

I can't remember what the 5 or 7 goals they outlined in a kind of manifesto last year were, and I can't seem to google it up any longer.

----------


## Gerbil

> Or is it more or less the case that with the election behind them and the PT in power, the UDD has achieved the only concrete goal they had?


Of course. The one's in the UDD that matter have received their reward. Their job is now to muzzle discontent in the ranks and get them back working in the fields. Inaugarate a few 'red villages' now and again, hold the occasional party, etc - just make sure they get back in their place until needed again.

Business as usual.  :Smile:

----------


## hazz

> It serves as a barrier to entry, it affects the character of those who choose to become politicians, it changes how these politicians act once elected, it has links to political violence and the prevalence of organised crime figures in thai politics, in short the distorts the whole fabric of politics in thailand. Its poison to democracy; yet the reds fudge this issue.


irrespective of wether or not vote buying affects the out come of an election. It does alter the relationship between the politician and his constituency. Essentially paid for his position, he owes nothing more to his constituents. If they want his help, they must pay.... just as he paid them for their votes. As for corruption that is his right and how everyone should expect him to make a return on his investment.

Its not the we voted you in, you owe the constituency attitude, Ive encounted when dealing with UK mp's

----------


## LooseBowels

Khun T must have his thai passport immediately re-instated.

He has committed no crime. :Smile: 

Junta proxy governments and coup-issued law hold no democratic authority, only politically motivated illegal acts.

You cant argue with that

----------


## Gerbil

> relationship between the pollution and his constituency


nice one  :Smile:

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> I see no problem/delay in placing new (_if_ they were even needed) English-proficient quasi copy-typist staff in either outfit.


They need native english-language speaking sub-editors (who can actually string a sentence together). But there aren't many around who are actually qualified and willing to work for 1,000 Baht per day.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> It seems that the PTP, which is not the same thing at all as the UDD, is preparing to start clamping down on free speech and is apparently quite content to let LM abuses continue without even a comment. Surely this is something that Reds, or at least factions within the UDD, should be speaking out about,


It's part of the evolution of democracy here. Everyone knew that the UDD was a coalition of socialists, academic pro-democracy types, business families that had tied their wagon to Thaksin and then the pure Thaksin lovers. 

I try to see the positive side of it. Once Thaksin comes back and starts his quasi-dictatorial ways again, a large faction of the UDD may well split and join with the educated, moderate, progressive wing of the anti-Thaksin side. Together they could slowly but surely build a real democratic base to move Thailand forward once enough voters get tired of Thaksin (on one side) and nature takes its course on the other - leaving PAD with no cause celeb.

----------


## Bobcock

> He has committed no crime.


yes, I wouldn't be able to say that and keep a straight face either.

Cudos.

----------


## sabang

> Khun T must have his thai passport immediately re-instated.


Revoking his Thai passport was not supported by any legal norm I am aware of, but revoking his diplomatic passport probably was. His Thai passport should never have been cancelled in the first place, it was merely an act of petulance.



> He has committed no crime


Hasn't he? An extremely rare Thai politician then. More to the point, the judicial process that convicted him was, to understate matters, tainted. It was also ultimately illegitimate, and should certainly be overturned. It certainly would be overturned under any impartial legal system that respects the rule of law and due process. 
The question that remains then, is should Thaksin be re-tried? This is where the large group of other [alleged] miscreants enter the equation. Would they prefer he be re-tried under impartial, legitimate proceedings- and face the same impartial judicial music themselves? Or should a 'deal' be arrived at.

----------


## Butterfly

> His Thai passport should never have been cancelled in the first place, it was merely an act of petulance.


if you are a flight risk and were convicted of a crime, your passport have to be returned to some kind of authority

there were a few cases of dodgy British expats who needed to renew their passport and got caught at the British Embassy and weren't renewed, but instead an arrest warrant was issued for their extradition

they were still free, but no new passport

----------


## Rural Surin

> It's part of the evolution of democracy here. Everyone knew that the UDD was a coalition of socialists, academic pro-democracy types, business families that had tied their wagon to Thaksin and then the pure Thaksin lovers.


Uh huh.
Just as the 1932 coup civilian and military cartel mix inspired the ideals of openess, freedom, and democracy [NOT]...

It's all just a ruse, regardless of the game, motive, or political ambition.
All the rascals sleep in the same bed.

----------


## Calgary

> Originally Posted by LooseBowels
> 
> He has committed no crime.
> 
> 
> yes, I wouldn't be able to say that and keep a straight face either.
> 
> Cudos.


If he was convicted by a legal entity other than that managed by his political enemies after their military coup, I might be tempted to agree with you BC.

But in the absence of such a scenario, only LB's position holds any water.

For heavens sake, they used the judiciary to justify their coup in what the Red Shirts called a "judicial coup". How can one lend credence to legal processes sourced from such a place. 

Within that scenario, how can anyone legitimize Thaksin's conviction, or any other conviction involving political people.

Judicial decisions by one political entity over another one, has no validity.....Not complicated.

Its like LB has been saying all along.....time for a reset... to pre-coup conditions with a judiciary realigned to insure independence and judicial balanced normalities, and then lets see where it goes.

This would have two stages:
#1 - reconfigure legal processes and entities toward independence and away from Amart management

#2 - identify which convictions involved "political people". Overturn them and/or try them again if ya want.

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by sabang

The question that remains then, is


*


> *>should Thaksin be re-tried? This is where the large group of other [alleged] miscreants enter the equation. Would they prefer he be re-tried under impartial, legitimate proceedings- and face the same impartial judicial music themselves?* 
> 
> *>Or should a 'deal' be arrived at.*




I prefer the former over the latter.

Re-trying them, including Thaksin should not be a problem to anyone.

Hopefully, others, such as Suthep and company, would be held to the same standard, with charges being initiated also - the other miscreants Sabang references

----------


## Bobcock

> If he was convicted by a legal entity other than that managed by his political enemies after their military coup, I might be tempted to agree with you BC.


His conviction legitimate or not doesn't even come into my opinion. Direct dealings involving people and companies close to me makes me say that.

Just the same way you and I know suthep T's lack of convictions do not make him an honest man.

----------


## Bobcock

> Re-trying them, including Thaksin should not be a problem to anyone. Hopefully, others, such as Suthep and company, would be held to the same standard, with charges being initiated also - the other miscreants Sabang references


Trying any of them at any time will never be a fair contest in this country. Thailand, sadly, is just not capable of Justice For All at this or any other time.

LB tells us it's here under the new Government, but sadly that is not true and won't be for years to come.

----------


## tomta

> Who can forget the dressing down he got from HRH and the string of photos showing taksin's embarassed and ever reddening face? I'm harldy surprised he wasn't included!


That couldn't be true. the King doesn't interfere in politics.

----------


## tomta

> Notice the dates on the below.  RichardBarrow Paknam Web Network  Thailand: ICT Ministry asked Facebook to block 26,000 URL in Aug-Sept & 60,000 URL in Oct-Nov /via [at]sunaibkk


But SD, you fail to note the nature of these websites.

Sabang asked  this question "How many pro-Yellow/ pro Democrat publications have been closed down?"

The websites that are being blocked are not pro-Yellow/pro Democrat websites. Quite the opposite as Prachatai reports and as the governments ICT minister Grp. Capt. Anudith points out

"According to ICT Minister Grp Cpt Anudith Nakornthap, the CSOC is an  upgrading of the Internet Security Operation Centre (ISOC) which was set  up in 2010, and will employ up-to-date technology in dealing with  inappropriate content on the internet, especially social media such as  Facebook and Twitter, through which offensive materials can be  distributed more easily and quickly. 
 To worship and protect the monarchy is an important duty of the  government which has been announced in its policy statement to  Parliament.  So it is the main duty of the Ministry to pursue the  governments policy to protect the monarchy, particularly in online  social networks by using up-to-date information technology to control  crime with the utmost efficiency, Anudith said.

  The Minister said that during the three months (Sept  Nov) since he  took office, the ministry had blocked over 60,000 URLs or pages,  compared with over 70,000 during the previous three years.  This shows  the intention of this government to demonstrate its loyalty to His  Majesty the King, he said."


MICT: More cyber offenders to be arrested soon | Prachatai English


It seems now that Prachatai has again been banned as well. Hardly a pro-Yellow/pro-Democrat website, SD.

----------


## StrontiumDog

^^ Tomta, the government is Pheu Thai.

They now head ISOC and MICT. 

What is your point? That Pheu Thai are censoring more of the internet? In which case, yes, it appears so.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Returning Thaksin's passport 'would be illegal' - The Nation
*
*Returning Thaksin's passport 'would be illegal'*

         THE NATION December 7, 2011  1:00 am 
 

*The opposition Democrat Party said yesterday that  Foreign Minister Surapong Towichukchaikul's efforts to help former prime  minister Thaksin Shinawatra obtain a Thai passport violated the law.*

The government has no authority to return Thaksin's Thai passport to  him as he is a fugitive from justice, said Democrat spokesman Chavanond  Intarakomalyasut.

The Democrats' revocation of Thaksin's passport was legitimate, but the  Pheu Thai-led government's effort to return it to him was illegitimate,  Chavanond said.

Former foreign minister Kasit Piromya terminated Thaksin's passport in  accordance with the ministry's regulations governing the issuance of  passports, as the ex-premier had harmed the country, Chavanond said.

Thaksin was involved in the protest against the previous government,  the spokesman said, and had an arrest warrant against him. The Foreign  Ministry cannot issue a passport to a person for whom such a warrant has  been issued and who is on the run, said Chavanond, who formerly held  the position of secretary to the foreign minister.

Article 21 of the 2005 Foreign Ministry regulations clearly states that  officials can reject a passport application from any fugitive from a  criminal charge, he said.

Many other articles of the regulation prohibit officials from issuing a passport to a person like Thaksin, he said.

"Like many other fugitives from criminal charges, such as former Kamnan  Somchai Kunplume and former minister Wattana Asavahame, Thaksin cannot  hold a Thai passport," Chavanond said. "Should the minister ask Somchai  and Wattana whether they held Thai passports while fleeing justice?"

Surapong will be making a serious political mistake if he issues a  passport to Thaksin, Chavanond said, adding that the Democrats would  continue to seek Surapong's impeachment over the case, even if he were  to lose his position. 

Surapong said last week that he wanted to return Thaksin's passport to him as a New Year's gift.

----------


## StrontiumDog

This wasn't posted yesterday, but relates..

UAE says it will boost ties with Thailand despite Thaksin issue - The Nation

*UAE says it will boost ties with Thailand despite Thaksin issue*

         Jintana Panyaarvudh,
Somroutai Sapsomboon
Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates December 6, 2011  1:00 am 
 
*
The United Arab Emirates looks forward to stronger  diplomatic ties with Thailand even though former Thai prime minister  Thaksin Shinawatra has taken up residence in Dubai on selfimposed exile.*

"I want to say that the UAE has a very strong relationship with  Thailand in all fields - tourism, politics. Our mission is how to get a  stronger relationship with Thailand," said Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed Al  Nahyan, the UAE's foreign minister.

Despite the sensitive Thaksin issue, discussions are underway to raise  the relationship to a new level, he told a conference organised by the  UAE's National Media Council as part of 40th National Day celebrations. 

The UAE and Thailand established diplomatic relations in 1975 and have  been trade partners since. Thailand buys mostly crude oil from the  federation - 33 per cent of its total needs each year. Thousands of  Emiratis visit Thailand each year for medical treatment and on tourism. 

It seems that the UAE's relations with Thailand hinge on fugitive Thaksin, who has been living in Dubai for at least two years.

However, Abdullah declined to comment on whether the relationship  between the two countries would improve after Thaksin's sister Yingluck  became the prime minister.

"It's a Thai affair," he said. 

When his Thai counterpart Surapong Towichukchaikul paid an official  visit late last month, they discussed many matters including economic  issues and explored ways to enhance the relationship regarding such  issues as extradition and a treaty on visa exemptions for the diplomats  of the two countries, he said.

"We have talked about how we will implement the treaty and how  effective it will be," he said. Abdullah is scheduled to visit Thailand  next year. 

Both countries also have strong labour relations. Surapong said during  his trip to the UAE that Thailand would improve its relations with  Middle Eastern countries especially concerning labour. 

As part of the National Day celebrations, Saqr Ghobash Saeed Ghobash,  the UAE's labour minister, said his ministry had proposed setting up a  national qualification authority to set and evaluate standards for  workers entering the UAE labour market. 

The authority would ensure the country had enough qualified manpower,  including unskilled workers, when it is established next year after it  is approved by the president. 

One of the ministry's key challenges is trying to encourage government  agencies to recruit unskilled workers in the country to solve the  unemployment problem. 

"The first priority is to open jobs for local people as part of our  'Emiratisation' policy especially for lowskilled workers, then expats.  We also try to encourage that policy for the private sector," he said. 

The UAE has almost 4 million foreign workers, half of whom are  unskilled, according to Ghobash. The top three sources are the  Philippines, India and Bangladesh. About 200,000 Emiratis are jobless. 

The new policies could affect foreign workers but Thai authorities were quite optimistic.

"It would not affect us because Thai workers there receive some  training in certain skills and are physically tougher than Emiratis,"  said Prawit Kiangphon, directorgeneral of the Employment Department. 

About 6,0007,000 Thais are working in the UAE, which is a small  presence compared with other Middle East countries. For example, there  are more than 10,000 Thais in Kuwait. Some 400,000 Thais work all over  the world, earning up to Bt60 billion a year. 

Ghobash said he believed in open markets and competition, and the right also for businesses to choose their workers.

"That's why you can see that there are almost 200 nationalities in our labour market," he said.

"We don't have particular policies to encourage certain nationalities  [to work here]. The chances for Thais and others depend on a lot of  conditions such as the variety of skills, salaries and other things and  benefits in this market," he said.

The difference in salaries between the public and private sectors in  the UAE is quite large, sometimes more than 50 per cent. The country  usually compensates its own people through publicsector salaries. That's  why salaries are slightly higher in the public sector.

Within the Gulf Cooperation Council, the UAE pays a little more in wages than some other GCC countries. 

"Qatar, the UAE and Kuwait may be close to one another [in wages], then Saudi Arabia and Bahrain and Oman," Ghobash said.

----------


## LooseBowels

> Returning Thaksin's passport 'would be illegal'


And under who's legal system would that be then, :Smile: 

Junta "Coup-Issued Law ?, or The " Democratically underpinned Institution of Law" 

The question answers itself

You can't argue with that

----------


## sabang

Interesting that what passes for the Bangkok press routinely asks the more hard core PAD activists or apologists within the Democrat party for comment. Actually, no it isn't.

----------


## Calgary

*All about Calendars* 
Calendar distribution also tells a story.

In this instance, three stories.
One story, concerns some commercial firms being forced to distribute certain calendars.

The second story concerns local RS people distributing Yingluck calendars. Certainly a most attractive addition to any wall, for the entire year

The third and final story, is that local RS will be distributing singular Yingluck Calendars without Thaksin. Those were also available but not selected.
Three calendar stories that tell a story.

If I could provide Y'all with one, I would.

----------


## StrontiumDog

Bangkok Post : Surapong's backward priorities

NewsTHINK

*Surapong's backward priorities*
Published:  7/12/2011 at 12:00 AMNewspaper section: News
 In a renewed effort to bring former Prime  Minister Thaksin Shinawatra back to Thailand, Foreign Minister Surapong  Tovichakchaikul last week said he was looking into the possibility of  returning the fugitive former premier's passport after the Abhisit  Vejjajiva Government revoked it two years ago.

 Mr Surapong first floated the idea while attending the United Nations  General Assembly in New York in September, but has not followed it up  partly due to the flooding situation.

 If an ordinary prisoner can still retain his identity card, why can't  Thaksin retain his ordinary passport, which is used as his personal  Thai ID card overseas, the minister explained in re-floating his plan.

 In his capacity as foreign minister, Mr Surapong claimed he was allowed by certain rules to do so.

 According to the ministry's regulation, the minister is authorised to  revoke a passport from any person if he deems the holder likely to  damage Thailand or any foreign country.

 All former prime ministers and foreign ministers have a right to hold  a diplomatic passport for life but then foreign minister Kasit Piromya  decided to seize the red passport from Thaksin at that time because he  was seen as the mastermind of all political unrest in Thailand during  the Abhisit government.

 Thaksin fled the country to avoid a two-year jail term for a land purchase corruption case.

 Diplomatic, or red, passports only help facilitate travel into or out  of a number of countries without the need to apply for a visa.

 Mr Surapong might not be wrong to return the ordinary passport to  Thaksin as he also said that some Thai prisoners who had escaped from  jail could hold that kind of passport. He could also argue that Thaksin  had stopped stirring up trouble for Thailand since the present  government took office.

 But his timing in trying to returning Thaksin's regular passport is  poor since Mr Surapong has no achievements to show for his three months  in office.

 It seems that his first priority as foreign minister was to help Thaksin and return the ordinary passport to the fugitive.

 Mr Surapong has told reporters since he took office in August that he  would try to turn around Thailand's soured relationship with Saudi  Arabia as his first priority as foreign minister.

 Instead of returning a passport to Thaksin as a New Year's gift, why  shouldn't the minister dedicate more effort to restoring the diplomatic  relationship between two countries as promised and make this his New  Year's gift to the Thai people?

 Thai-Saudi diplomatic ties have been rocky for more than 20 years  following the death of four Saudi Arabian diplomats based in Thailand  and the theft of Saudi jewellery by a Thai worker.

 If he can successfully repair the relationship it would greatly  benefit the Thai people, particularly skilled workers who would again be  able to work in the desert kingdom, particularly in light of the  present flood crisis which has put many of them out of work.

 Mr Surapong has not said what he's achieved on this front, if anything.

 The normalisation of Thai-Cambodian relations since the present the  government took office cannot be cited as an achievement since the key  factor which drove the two countries apart was the Democrat government. Phnom Penh disliked the previous administration and when it was replaced  by the Pheu Thai government, which is favoured by Cambodia, relations  quickly returned to normal.

 Mr Surapong cannot claim his trip to attend the UNGA meeting in New  York as an achievement either, as this was a routine job for any foreign  minister in office at the time.

----------


## Bobcock

> Diplomatic, or red, passports only help facilitate travel into or out of a number of countries without the need to apply for a visa.


Really?...that's all they do?

----------


## Calgary

*



			
				Bangkok Post : Surapong's backward priorities
			
		

*

In the opinion of the electoral majority, Surapong has forward priorities.

Not complicated.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> *
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				Bangkok Post : Surapong's backward priorities
> 			
> 		
> 
> ...


Do you mean the 48.13% majority Calgary?

Apparently maths is a bit complicated for you. Other things are as well it would appear....

----------


## hazz

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> Diplomatic, or red, passports only help facilitate travel into or out of a number of countries without the need to apply for a visa.
> 
> 
> Really?...that's all they do?


essentially its a just another (vanity?) passport, with different immigration entry requirements. most countries will grant diplomatic passport holders a week or two in the country without a visa. probably a very important if you have a big ego and come from a country where most places want a you to have a visa.

the diplomatic immunity thing is granted by the host country, at their discretion usually to a list of people who work at the embassy.

SD 48%, whilst not an absolute majority; is a very good result for a parliamentary democracy and does give you the right to run the country

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ I know hazz, but it isn't a majority. So it is fun to remind Calgary of that fact.

----------


## mao say dung

I believe the technical term for a single party winning 48.13% of the vote in a multi-party election is "overwhelming plurality", but that is a drag to have to type every time. 

On the other hand, misusing "majority" does give certain types an opportunity to pretend that the election was anything other than a crushing blow to the so-called "opposition".

----------


## hazz

^You cannot knock it, in a parliamentary democracy getting 48% of the vote is a crushing defeat of the opposition and normally would lead you to gaining a large majority of the seats in parliament. It also gives the right to run the country and carry out your election promises, without interference. 

There is the usual limitation, that if you steam ahead without considering the wishes of those who voted against you and start implementing policies they seriously object too; the result will be street demonstrations. Thats what referendums are for, if you have the confidence to use them.

The constitutional changes deserve a referendum, the army's constitution was installed by one and it deserves to be removed by one to.

Taksin is such a decisive issue in thailand this also deserves a referendum, with both sides accepting the result.... I know the yellow shirts don't believe in democracy on the basis the voters are too stupid and the red shirts only believe in democracy when it yields the the result they want. but its the only way forward, though I don't think PT have the confidence to use one.

----------


## longway

> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by longway
> 
> thai society is littered with stunning cases of injustice due to double standards, but these are never touched by the reds, only Thaksin's case is on their lips.
> 
> ...


Well forget the english language media, I have read nothing from you that dispels my view. You are as selective in whom you single out for criticism as anyone.

If you can take the next step from your observation that the english media focuses heavily on Thaksin you can understand just that the real beef is with Thaksin, not with the red shirts. 

I mentioned before, you have already won, years ago, you dont need to rely on Thaksin or the PT to achieve your politcal aims, they are just the same as the rest. Thaksin and his lackeys in your movement are a hurdle to democracy not a stepping stone.

----------


## Calgary

*^^^*
*




 Originally Posted by mao say dung

On the other hand, misusing "majority" does give certain types an opportunity to pretend that the election was anything other than a crushing blow to the so-called "opposition".__________________


*

Correct MSD.

But the misdirections and pretensions they foment, are essentially insignificant, and yesterday's news.

Their attempts to muddy the waters that have swamped them or pitiful.

They are now a mere inconsequential sideshow to what this Govt. is going to do going forward.

Their electoral legitimacy is not in question, but the "_amount of balls"_ they have is.

The primary issue is no longer the Amart, but this Govt. and its increasingly restless support base.

These latter two forces are beginning to square off and the political movement coming from this confrontation will be the political news of tommorrow.

Time to relegate and ignore the PADites for being the miniscule political no-bodies they are, whose outsized media presence far exceeds their actual being.

The forces of political consequence to watch now, are the PTP and the UDD, whose combined electoral majority is unchallenged.

----------


## mao say dung

^Do you have any sense from your Red contacts that we are going to see anything from them about the apparent intention of this government to increase censorship and do nothing about people languishing in prison awaiting charges that are blatantly politically motivated?

I also recall that one of the Reds' "6 points" was the return of the '97 Constitution.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> ^Do you have any sense from your Red contacts that we are going to see anything from them about the apparent intention of this government to increase censorship and do nothing about people languishing in prison awaiting charges that are blatantly politically motivated?
> 
> I also recall that one of the Reds' "6 points" was the return of the '97 Constitution.


Yes, here is what is going to happen...breaking news a short while ago.

Bangkok Post : Chalerm wants war on lese majeste

*Chalerm wants war on lese majeste*

Published:  7/12/2011 at 03:46 PMOnline news:
 Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yubamrung has  offered to lead a camapaign for the suppression of websites deemed to  broadcast lese majeste content.

 He said on Wednesday he had submitted a proposal through the cabinet  secretary-general to Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra for the setting  up of a committee responsible for the suppression of lese majeste  websites.

 Mr Chalerm said he had also offered to chair the committee.

 The deputy prime minister said he would coordinate with tghe Interior  and Information and Communication Technology ministries and take  drastic action against whoever insults the monarchy, regardless of his  or her political colour code.

 The committee he proposes  would aim to close down all lese majeste websites, he said.

 Mr Chalerm said that as a member of the Pheu Thai Party he  would definitely not allow any websites to commit lese majeste, even  though they might be run by the red-shirts.

----------


## tomta

> The reds have 5 years to come up with ideas on making Thailand more democratic, yet they never address any issues that do not benefit Thaksin and the PT. Why?


They came up with the idea of allowing elected governments to remain in power and not get outsed by a coup.

That's a fairly substantial idea in Thailand.

----------


## mao say dung

> Yes, here is what is going to happen...breaking news a short while ago.


You do realize Chalerm is not a "Red", right? My question was about the Reds.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> Yes, here is what is going to happen...breaking news a short while ago.
> 
> 
> You do realize Chalerm is not a "Red", right? My question was about the Reds.


I realise that Chalerm is Deputy Prime Minister. 

I realise that Yingluck is Prime Minister.

I realise that Thaksin is Yingluck's sister and substantially funded and supported the red shirt movement.

I realise that a lot of red shirts look to Thaksin as some sort of hero and actively seek his return. 

I realise that a lot of the red shirt leadership and senior members are now part of this Pheu Thai government. 

You?

----------


## Buksida

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> The reds have 5 years to come up with ideas on making Thailand more democratic, yet they never address any issues that do not benefit Thaksin and the PT. Why?
> 
> 
> They came up with the idea of allowing elected governments to remain in power and not get outsed by a coup.
> 
> That's a fairly substantial idea in Thailand.


Surely you can't be saying it was their idea, as in they were the first to think of it?

----------


## Calgary

> ^Do you have any sense from your Red contacts that we are going to see anything from them about the apparent intention of this government to increase censorship and do nothing about people languishing in prison awaiting charges that are blatantly politically motivated?
> 
> I also recall that one of the Reds' "6 points" was the return of the '97 Constitution.


I asked this directly of the Red Shirt leadership here MSD, with the following response:
Red Shirt prisoners - this has been the primary "_pressure focus'_ by the UDD toward this PTP Govt. Most political prisoners will be moved to the Police Academy in BKK. on December 21st. Contracts have been signed accordingly. This removes them from the criminal penal system, and recognizes the political nature of their incarceration.Constitution - Pressure is building about this issue, in particular the "_double Standards_' imbalances it is perpetuating. The many Media-unreported, post-coup, non-BKK rallies by the Red Shirts were significantly focussed on this Dbl. Stds. thing. The PTP is losing wiggle room on this issue with their rank-and-file, and it needs to move forward soon.Censorship worse than ever. The PTP key figures regard this issue a lesser evil with which to mollify some people, while pursuing other initiatives. To prevent people from spouting off on certain issues is insignificant in the larger scheme of things. It is even affecting international sources, whereby they '_tag_' certain individuals for special attention when or if they come to Thailand.The whole question of Ms. Y and PTP Govt. inaction is a hot-button issue and getting hotter within their support base, and the UDD in particular. There is a reluctance however, to be too open about this, as it gives comfort to key elements of the Amart. They are consciously seeking to sow such discord in their drive to "_divide and conquer_" There may be disagreements, pressure focus on certain issues, but let there be no doubt, that the UDD/RS will defend their Govt. tooth-and-nail. If the Amart think they can steal another one, they'd better think again.

----------


## Gerbil

> Mr Chalerm said that as a member of the Pheu Thai Party he would definitely not allow any websites to commit lese majeste, even though they might be run by the red-shirts.


Translation: "Know your place, peasants."

----------


## Butterfly

the stupidity of the red electorate is just a disaster waiting to happen,

when the electorate starts to idealize a person instead of a principle or an idea, you know they are fresh meat for the political predators

Thaksin is a political predator, and the red retards are his dinner

it's really that simple,

----------


## mao say dung

> I realise that a lot of the red shirt leadership and senior members are now part of this Pheu Thai government. 
> 
> You?


I guess you imagine your little display demonstrates something other than that you are the witless prat people say you are; it doesn't.

I was asking about the Reds, not about PT, and no matter how perfectly it suits you to constantly make out that they are one and the same, they aren't.

You may think that the 9 Reds who sit on the PT bench are somehow controlling this administration and that therefore whatever Chalerm announces must somehow reflect what Reds in general think, but I live in the real world.

Unlike you, I am wary of the Thai media and don't believe that if there are no reports of Red activity regarding censorship or political prisoners then there is no activity. It just means there are no reports. So I asked Calgary what he'd heard or knew.

When I want another C+P from The Nation and a laughable denial that you share their obscene agenda, I'll.... sorry, cancel that, I won't.

 :deadhorsebig:

----------


## mao say dung

> There may be disagreements, pressure focus on certain issues, but let there be no doubt, that the UDD/RS will defend their Govt. tooth-and-nail. If the Amart think they can steal another one, they'd better think again.


Which is where I will part company from my "support" of the Reds, such as it is and has been. It will essentially mean that the Reds are saying my amart is better than theirs... just like so many of the yellow-tinged cynics on these boards have been saying all along.

----------


## Butterfly

> It will essentially mean that the Reds are saying my amart is better than theirs


jesus, you are a bit fucking slow, aren't you ? that's what they have been saying all along

I bet you fell into the sick buffalo story by more than a few times, how much more evidence do you need ?

----------


## Calgary

^^
[*QUOTE="mao say dung"]It will essentially mean that the Reds are saying my amart is better than theirs... [/quote]*It could.

My belief about this is being sorely tested, but not yet prepared to draw that conclusion.

Let's talk again six months (or thereabouts) from now.

Their timeframe since the election is still relatively short, affected considerably by the flood disaster.

I'l be a Red optimist for awhile longer, but not interminably.

The Reds around here are also on edge about this lack of productivity by the PTP Govt. but are open-minded at the present time.

The kowtowing to certain elements of the Amart seems to be the most troubling to them, and is seriously eroding Thaksin affinities.

----------


## longway

> When I want another C+P from The Nation and a laughable denial that you share their obscene agenda


What is their obscene agenda???

----------


## Gerbil

Prediction: This time next year, Calgary will be solid PADite.  :bunny3:

----------


## Calgary

> When I want another C+P from The Nation and a laughable denial that you share their obscene agenda
> 			
> 		
> 
> What is their obscene agenda???


Your question is the laughable denial MSD was referring to.

----------


## mao say dung

^Yeah, me too. I reckon I can hold out at least until the 111 return... I figure if nothing happens before then to convince me that there are Reds who are really going to stick to the few basic principles they espoused, I'll throw in the towel, get a lobotomy, and join the THAKSIN: HE BAD school of political science.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> Originally Posted by Calgary
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				Bangkok Post : Surapong's backward priorities
> ...


Plurality - happy dek?

----------


## Rocksteady

> That couldn't be true. the King doesn't interfere in politics.


Front page news - string of coloured photos to prove it!  It's probably still in the archives if you wanted to check it out!  A golden moment, to be sure!

----------


## Butterfly

> I'll throw in the towel, get a lobotomy, and join the THAKSIN: HE BAD school of political science.


proves that you have no brain after all and can't think independently

----------


## mao say dung

> Plurality - happy dek?


Prefer "overwhelming plurality", myself.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				When I want another C+P from The Nation and a laughable denial that you share their obscene agenda
> ...


I'll assume that its another bizarre red conspiracy theory then.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

^
So you think the Notion is a credible news source?

----------


## longway

^ Depends, as good and as bad as any in Thailand. The reason I think Calgary is a troll at times is as he fits so perfectly into their reds are nice but dim stereotype.




> join the THAKSIN: HE BAD school of political science.


Closer to the truth than the THEY JEALOUS HIM kindergarten class/nutters convention.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> 
> 
> I realise that a lot of the red shirt leadership and senior members are now part of this Pheu Thai government. 
> 
> You?
> 
> 
> ...


Ah, true to form, after I had been most polite, you resort to the usual, attack the messenger, but ignore what I said and make the usual warped interpretations on things that I have never stated (and of course forget the things I have written). 

You have no idea what I think, as proven by the total crap your wrote above ("9 Reds who sit on the PT bench are somehow controlling this administration" what the hell is that all about? Some bizarre conclusions you draw). 

This is the problem with you and others of the 'blind to reality' fraternity, if anyone dare to question your opinions, all you do is attack and insult. There's no discussion or middle ground. You simply don't have the ability to find one. 

You are totally wrong in what you wrote. But of course, you'll continue to believe otherwise, as how could the intellectual colossus, that you think you are, get things so wrong, so often, right?

And while there are grassroots reds that have a real interest in democracy and reform here, the red leadership do not. People such as Jatuporn were in Thai Rak Thai and have one agenda only. Thaksin. That's all it ever was about. That's all it will ever be about. I don't care whether you believe me or not, I doubt you'll even manage to retain the information contained within this post for longer than the usual nanosecond that afflicts people of your ilk, but that is how it is.  

It is like working on a learning disability ward here sometimes. 

Oh and for the record, once a-f*cking-gain. I post the news that is available and within forum rules. Don't like it? Find some yourself and post it. I spend a lot of time and effort posting things here and all I get is accused of not being "wary" of the Thai media. If it wasn't for people like me, making the effort to post the articles, then there wouldn't be anything to read. 

And yeah, I know you wont apologise or acknowledge your indiscretion, in fact I imagine your response to this will be to red me, further proving just how right I am in everything I've written above. Oh well. People like you don't have the capacity to learn. Closed-minded and myopic. You never got passed the "concrete operational". 

And I wouldn't rely on Calgary for your information. He didn't even know red shirts were protesting at the flood barriers and removing them...he thought it was part of a PAD/Amart plot to "foment unrest" and then bring down the Yingluck government (all part of the grand plot). Yeah, for real, he really wrote it....that is how well informed he is. Oh and he also said that he gets his info from "pillow talk". He's never supplied any evidence to back up his claims and has been banging the "red shirts want action from Pheu Thai drum" for a couple of months now....what has happened? Nothing. It has gotten worse. You have been warned.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Prediction: This time next year, Calgary will be solid PADite.


Or heavily medicated and only allowed to use plastic cutlery.

----------


## Buksida

> Originally Posted by Calgary
> 
> There may be disagreements, pressure focus on certain issues, but let there be no doubt, that the UDD/RS will defend their Govt. tooth-and-nail. If the Amart think they can steal another one, they'd better think again.
> 
> 
> Which is where I will part company from my "support" of the Reds, such as it is and has been. It will essentially mean that the Reds are saying my amart is better than theirs... just like so many of the yellow-tinged cynics on these boards have been saying all along.


"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who don't have it"

Seems you've woken up and smelt the coffee, not really fair to call us cynics or yellows just because we saw clearly what was happening.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Calgary
> ...


You appear to have morphed into Thanong K.

Are you okay?

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by mao say dung
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Calgary
> ...


I don't think he's ready for another revelation quite yet. Once a year is probably enough mate.  :Smile: 

(Yeah, I know this post is childish, but I'm still in utter disbelief at the total shite I was subjected to by him....I will resume normal service soon, after I've discharged my annoyance sufficiently...apologies for the hijack).

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by mao say dung
> 
> 
> ^Do you have any sense from your Red contacts that we are going to see anything from them about the apparent intention of this government to increase censorship and do nothing about people languishing in prison awaiting charges that are blatantly politically motivated?
> 
> I also recall that one of the Reds' "6 points" was the return of the '97 Constitution.
> 
> 
> I asked this directly of the Red Shirt leadership here MSD, with the following response:Red Shirt prisoners - this has been the primary "_pressure focus'_ by the UDD toward this PTP Govt. Most political prisoners will be moved to the Police Academy in BKK. on December 21st. Contracts have been signed accordingly. This removes them from the criminal penal system, and recognizes the political nature of their incarceration.


Cool, so we have a date mentioned. So, we should look forward to announcements of this, so far completely unannounced, move. Great news. That will be a relief to the families of those incarcerated. 




> Constitution - Pressure is building about this issue, in particular the "_double Standards_' imbalances it is perpetuating. The many Media-unreported, post-coup, non-BKK rallies by the Red Shirts were significantly focussed on this Dbl. Stds. thing. The PTP is losing wiggle room on this issue with their rank-and-file, and it needs to move forward soon.


Any timeframe on this, as you have said such things before. Nothing has happened. 




> Censorship worse than ever. The PTP key figures regard this issue a lesser evil with which to mollify some people, while pursuing other initiatives. To prevent people from spouting off on certain issues is insignificant in the larger scheme of things. It is even affecting international sources, whereby they '_tag_' certain individuals for special attention when or if they come to Thailand.


By "other initiatives", I take it you mean the return of Thaksin, as that has to be the trade-off. Part of the previous deal, that had appeared to have gone sour...

By "international sources", who are you referring to? 




> The whole question of Ms. Y and PTP Govt. inaction is a hot-button issue and getting hotter within their support base, and the UDD in particular. There is a reluctance however, to be too open about this, as it gives comfort to key elements of the Amart. They are consciously seeking to sow such discord in their drive to "_divide and conquer_" There may be disagreements, pressure focus on certain issues, but let there be no doubt, that the UDD/RS will defend their Govt. tooth-and-nail. If the Amart think they can steal another one, they'd better think again.


Yes, mustn't protest....must keep quiet. Nothing like democracy, right? And this allowing themselves to be pacified is nothing like it. I think some have fallen for the Pheu Thai propaganda with this. A democracy movement doesn't become all passive and allow itself to be silenced. You either want reform or you don't. Thaksin and his cronies want the red shirts to be quiet. They want them to drift away. For me the interesting bit is watching the lies keep flowing to keep the movement under control. 

Btw, this isn't the UDD/RS government. It was elected by the people of Thailand to serve them. Normal people. The red shirts are a movement of some of the population. The red shirts do not own this government. You do understand this rather basic concept, right? If enough people become disenchanted with this government, then the will of the people must be respected.

----------


## tomta

> ^^ Tomta, the government is Pheu Thai.  They now head ISOC and MICT.  What is your point? That Pheu Thai are censoring more of the internet? In which case, yes, it appears so.


This was my point. It was quite clear.

"But SD, you fail to note the nature of these websites.

Sabang asked  this question "How many pro-Yellow/ pro Democrat publications have been closed down?"" [ From my previous post]

I went on to give the evidence that the PT's censorship (which is quite disgusting) was all about proving how loyal to the monarchy they are not about suppressing the Democrats or anything like that.

My point was the point that was put in the first two lines of my  post that you somehow seemed to miss.  It leads into other ideas that might be interesting but if you can't get the first simple points than I guess it's not worth carrying the conversation any further with you.

----------


## LooseBowels

> ....I will resume normal service soon


Don't bother

----------


## Calgary

*Independence, support, sympathy???* 
_Which is where I will part company from my "support" of the Reds, such as it is and has been___
_I'll be a Red optimist for awhile longer, but not interminably_
_Yeah, me too. I reckon I can hold out at least until the 111 return... I figure if nothing happens before then to convince me that there are Reds who are really going to stick to the few basic principles they espoused, I'll throw in the towel, get a lobotomy, and join the THAKSIN: HE BAD school of political science_The above discussion I had yesterday with MSD, got me to thinking about the question of independence and neutralitycan there credibly be such a thing?

My answer to that question is no.

In the real world where this Farang could vote and be consequential previously, I rigidly voted party lines.

Likewise in this unreal world, where us Farangs are inconsequential, we obviously cannot be supportive of anything, but we can be sympathetic to one side or the other.

Any of you who have read Bettyboos Posts amongst others of similar insight, one will have a very clear idea of the composition of the Amart and their basic impulses.

Without detailing those impulses here for fear of not being comprehensive, suffice it to say these _impulses_ are at their heart Undemocratic.
It is they who have perpetrated many coups in the past, and repeatedly installed their people from the Democrat Party in power afterward.

On the contrary, The UDD/Red Shirt Movement have tried to break this cycle of _political theft via coups_ and been inclined to use Electoral Democracy to achieve it. 

So in spite of all their warts, they are at their heart Democratic, however imperfect it is with them. It is their only choice regardless what motivations one may attribute to them.

All us Farangs can do is debate from an inconsequential sympathetic POV, in favour of one side as described above, or the other side.

IMO, one cannot credibly stand astride both these political forces and cherry-pick which point one agrees with and which not.

One may be critically evaluative, but bottom line, either one has sympathy for those who espouse electoral democratic impulses, or those who dont.

To promote a _pox on all their houses_ approach is cynical and negative. One needs to accept that in Politics as religion, one never agrees with one or the other 100%, but associates with that which has a greater degree of commonality with ones personal, political impulses, and debates a sympathetic position for them.

If one accepts the premise that in Thailand, one side is more Democratically inclined than the other, however imperfect, one cannot at the same time advocate on behalf of undemocratic forces at the same time. Doesnt make sense. A little like trying to be ½ pregnant.

When I see such an attempt, I automatically put them in one camp or the other, and debate them accordingly. 

I dont buy into their self-professed desires to be neutral, thereby hoping their opinions are somehow more valid as a result. 

Imo, it simply devalues their opinion. Consider it to be naive at best.

This particularly applies to those who claim neutrality, but consistently dump on one side or the other.

Cycling back to the quotes above from our discussion of yesterday, one can see the ambivalence in the face of obvious imperfections in Thailands very immature striving for Democracy.

A striving that is considerably complicated with interference from those who see it as a diminishment of their status. 

Nevertheless. where there is a glimmer of impulses in that direction, I will be sympathetic to them. 

For all their warts, those who have Democratic impulses ought to sympathize with those who share it, to even a limited degree.

Expressing sympathy of the other, demonstrates personal political impulses toward undemocratic forces.

----------


## tomta

> Front page news - string of coloured photos to prove it! It's probably still in the archives if you wanted to check it out! A golden moment, to be sure!


Rocksteady, have you ever heard of irony?

----------


## longway

> *Independence, support, sympathy???* 
> _“Which is where I will part company from my "support" of the Reds, such as it is and has been__”_
> _“I'll be a Red optimist for awhile longer, but not interminably”_
> _“Yeah, me too. I reckon I can hold out at least until the 111 return... I figure if nothing happens before then to convince me that there are Reds who are really going to stick to the few basic principles they espoused, I'll throw in the towel, get a lobotomy, and join the THAKSIN: HE BAD school of political science”_The above discussion I had yesterday with MSD, got me to thinking about the question of independence and neutrality……can there credibly be such a thing?
> 
> My answer to that question is ‘no’.
> 
> In the real world where this Farang could vote and be consequential previously, I rigidly voted ‘party lines’.
> 
> ...


There had been no coups since 1991. The 1997 constitution was achieved without the reds. Thailand was heralded as having one of most free presses in se Asia.

It was far from perfect then, but at least on the right road. Thaksin created an environment that made a coup possible, shat on the 1997 constitution and started the cycle muzzling the opposition, since then the reds uncritical support for this violent political thug has kept the country in a cycle of pointless violence.

Time for bit of soul searching from the reds, if you are so good, why is everything so shitty. Do you want democracy or do you want thaksin? They are incompatible.

----------


## Butterfly

> There had been no coups since 1991. The 1997 constitution was achieved without the reds. Thailand was heralded as having one of most free presses in se Asia.
> 
> It was far from perfect then, but at least on the right road. Thaksin created an environment that made a coup possible, shat on the 1997 constitution and started the cycle muzzling the opposition
> 
> since then the reds uncritical support for this violent political thug has kept the country in a cycle of pointless violence.


bravo, perfectly well put, and will probably be lost on the usual red retards,




> Time for bit of soul searching from the reds, if you are so good, why is everything so shitty. Do you want democracy or do you want thaksin? They are incompatible.


again, summarize the situation perfectly

----------


## sabang

Basically, what you Coup apologists are saying is that Thaksin was 'so bad' that a military putsch was justified. 
You are plain wrong, and no impartial observer would say otherwise given the results.

----------


## Rural Surin

> Basically, what you Coup apologists are saying is that Thaksin was 'so bad' that a military putsch was justified. 
> You are plain wrong, and no impartial observer would say otherwise given the results.


A means to an end, Sabang.

One coup easily look back on contemporary Thai history and ask if any of the successful or attempted coups were justified. It's been a way
of life for a few generations, a long story that seemingly will never attain a conclusion.

----------


## Calgary

^
The coup of 2006 needs to be looked at within the context of all the coups, as you say RS.

Not in isolation.

What, 15 during the past 50 years or so.

I suppose if one studies each individual coup within the conext of their day, one could make a case for " _exceptions to the rule_", but in the main, their motivations had many things in common - particularly One dominant thing. 

Sympathizing with forces that have historically been at the root of these coups, positions the opinionater as an anti-democratic individual.

Within today's context, one side of the political divide is coup-insensitive, the other one is not.

----------


## Thaihome

> ...Without detailing those impulses here for fear of not being comprehensive, suffice it to say these _impulses_ are at their heart Undemocratic.
> It is they who have perpetrated many coups in the past, and repeatedly installed their people from the Democrat Party in power afterward..


Repeatedly? You cannot come up with one instance in which a Democrat PM was not eleceted by a parlimentary vote of elected MP's. 


This is the classice "big lie", told again and again.

George Orwell:

To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed....






> ...
> If one accepts the premise that in Thailand, one side is more Democratically inclined than the other, however imperfect, one cannot at the same time advocate on behalf of undemocratic forces at the same time. Doesnt make sense. A little like trying to be ½ pregnant.
> ...


Before you can answer that question, an even better question is "what are the sides"? 

TH

----------


## longway

> Basically, what you Coup apologists are saying is that Thaksin was 'so bad' that a military putsch was justified. 
> You are plain wrong, and no impartial observer would say otherwise given the results.


You have no idea what I said.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> The coup of 2006 needs to be looked at within the context of all the coups.
> 
> Not in isolation.
> 
> What, 15 during the past 50 years or so.
> 
> I suppose if one studies each individual coup within the conext of their day, one could make a case for " _exceptions to the rule_", but in the main, their motivations had many things in common - particularly One dominant thing. 
> 
> Sympathizing with forces that have historically been at the root of these coups, positions the opiniorater as an anti-democratic individual.
> ...


Says the man who is against freedom of opinion and expression. You do realise Calgary, that without such rights, democracy can not function. 

So, it is rather funny that you accuse others of being "anti-democratic"....you do understand this, right?

Calgary, you are anti-democratic.

----------


## Rural Surin

> What, 15 during the past 50 years or so.


Check your facts again.

----------


## longway

> The coup of 2006 needs to be looked at within the context of all the coups.
> 
> Not in isolation.
> 
> What, 15 during the past 50 years or so.
> 
> I suppose if one studies each individual coup within the conext of their day, one could make a case for " _exceptions to the rule_", but in the main, their motivations had many things in common - particularly One dominant thing. 
> 
> Sympathizing with forces that have historically been at the root of these coups, positions the opiniorater as an anti-democratic individual.
> ...


If that 'one dominant thing' is so undemocratic why is it that Thailand was one of the most democratic countries in SE Asia.

A claim has been made, but what's the baseline? Whether there are coups or not? Or whether Thailand could have been so much worse off? Look at every country in SE Asia who doesn't have the supposed handicap of the 'one dominant thing' tell why most of them are not better off than thailand and are in fact far worse.

----------


## Rural Surin

> ...why is it that Thailand was one of the most democratic countries in SE Asia.


Really. According to whom?

Never been democratic nor ever promoted such progressive idealism.

Surface only...

----------


## sabang

> Thailand was one of the most democratic countries in SE Asia.


Wot, during the 'good old' 90's?  :rofl:

----------


## longway

^ how many can you name that were better in those days? And now is it better or worse?

----------


## Calgary

[*QUOTE="longway"]The 1997 constitution was achieved without the reds[/quote]...........*No it wasn't. Where do you think they came from Post-coup.

It is just that the coup forced them to organize in order to stand up to the existing order, much to the chagrin of that "_existing order_"
*




 Originally Posted by longway

 Thaksin created an environment that made a coup possible


* .........Thaksin was not around during those 15 or so other coups in the past 50 years (or so). 

Others were.To skew this discussion to Thaksin is missing its' point.
*




 Originally Posted by longway

started the cycle muzzling the opposition,


.......*You mean the Media right?........The Media has been a bitter enemy of Ms.Y and the PTP Govt. commencing even before she took office, and reaching real crescendo's using a national disaster.

These Media people are political soul-brothers of those who continually create coups.

Any "fight-back" from the PTP and Mz. Y would immediately be characterized as a "_freedom-of-the-press_" issue by them for self-serving purposes.

Thaksin was faced with the same hostile media, because he was of the same political stripe as the PTP and not from these coup-prone people.

At least he had the "balls" to fight back, unlike this current administration.

So what was their knee-jerk reaction?.......

Yup, you got it - another coup!
*[quote="longway"]support for this violent political thug has kept the country in a cycle of pointless violence.[/quote.......*A political thug?........Having the balls to challenge coup-prone anti-democratic forces makes him a "political thug?Millions of voters in the last election voted for a political thug????

Your disrespect for the Thai electorate is appalling.
*




 Originally Posted by longway

Time for bit of soul searching from the reds, if you are so good, why is everything so shitty


.........*Everything is shitty according to those who lost the election only.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> 
> ...why is it that Thailand was one of the most democratic countries in SE Asia.
> 
> 
> 
> Really. According to whom?
> 
> ...


The question is not whether was it good or bad? The question is could anyone else have done better?

----------


## longway

Deleted by self

----------


## longway

[quote]


> [*QUOTE="longway"]The 1997 constitution was achieved without the reds*


One of these days you will realize you are not standing up to the undemocratic forces but supporting one faction of them.

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by Thaihome

what are the sides"?


*

The Amart, with all its' well known component elements.......and......all others.

Starkly visible at Ratchaprasong, and subsequent killings.

I know this distinction is inconvenient for the Amart, but it is reality. 

I also discount Politicians who similarly to TH, try to avoid being classified/positioned on the political spectrum.

They would love to be all things, to all people.

----------


## Calgary

> Originally Posted by Calgary
> 
> 
>  
> What, 15 during the past 50 years or so.
> 
> 
> Check your facts again.


Can someone be more accurate then me on this?

I just used 15/50 as an approximation, but I know someone has the exact figures.

I think the exact figures even more starkly demonstrate my point.

I also understand there are some other sensitivities here as well.

----------


## Seekingasylum

Is your incessant participation in this thread some sort of prescribed therapy or are you quite comfortable with what is evidently a mania ?

----------


## Calgary

I understand that the UDD is finally being forced to address a certain legislative reality.

It is a 'reality' that a UDD splinter group had as their primary rallying call.

The UDD has tried to avoid it, but recently making noises that they are adopting the stance organization wide, to be pressed upon the PTP Govt.

----------


## Seekingasylum

.......and he goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on...........

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by longway

why is it that Thailand was one of the most democratic countries in SE Asia.


*

Election results being repeatedly negated via many coups, does not a Democratic country make.

I realize that a North Korea makes Thailand appear democratic, but that doesn't make Thailand historically a Democratic country.

"Repeated coups" are the "canary-in-the-mine".

_"By their works shall ye know them."_

----------


## Seekingasylum

......and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and.......

----------


## SteveCM

> Originally Posted by Rural Surin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Calgary
> ...


A handy reference (with some useful discussion) here: Counting Thailand’s coups

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by Rural Surin

Never been democratic nor ever promoted such progressive idealism.


*


> *Surface only...*




Yup, but very, very good at projecting that "_surface only_" image.

If reality only matched the image, everyone would be a winner!

----------


## Seekingasylum

.... on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and......

----------


## Calgary

> ^ how many can you name that were better in those days? And now is it better or worse?


If you are comparing economic well-being, citizen happiness, security, stability and all that stuff, this would be a different discussion.

However, this is a discussion narrowly about the presence or absence of Democracy.

China can be hugely succesful economically, as well as Thailand,  but killing people for their political beliefs in Tiannamen Square and doing so at Ratchaprasong.......Wot's the difference?

It all harks back to giving people political choices and letting the majority rule.

Coups are the tool of those who want it otherwise.....demonstrated not only by the 2006 coup but all of those before.

All of which had a common thread.

----------


## Seekingasylum

....on and on and on and on and on and on and on and.......

----------


## Buksida

> Basically, what you Coup apologists are saying is that Thaksin was 'so bad' that a military putsch was justified. 
> You are plain wrong, and no impartial observer would say otherwise given the results.


This is not what Longway said, if your calling him or any others coup apologists then pls back it up with quote.
Longway's post was an excellent summary, the only thing I'd add is Thaksin's acquittal, despite being guilty, was were Thailand turned away from democracy. From then on things have just gotten worse.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> I understand that the UDD is finally being forced to address a certain legislative reality.
> 
> It is a 'reality' that a UDD splinter group had as their primary rallying call.
> 
> The UDD has tried to avoid it, but recently making noises that they are adopting the stance organization wide, to be pressed upon the PTP Govt.


Care to be more specific?

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by longway

One of these days you will realize you are not standing up to the undemocratic forces but supporting one faction of them.


*

I *hope* you are wrong about that.

No faction claiming to be "democratic" will ever be that in a pure sense of the word.

I am not naiive enough to expect perfection in this regard, especially here in Thailand.

I just hope those who I deem to be "democratic" are clearly more so, than those who I catagorize as undemocratic.

I will continue to sympathise with those who demonstrate the *greater* impulse in this regard.

To do otherwise and throw one's hands up in despair, is such negative territory that it would be no fun for a political junkie to discuss politics anymore, and would prompt one to vacate any interest in discussion forums like TD.

I will accept political conditions as they are (not as I would like them to be) and sympathise with those who are *closer* to my ideology of Democracy.

*"Closer"* is good enough for me, at this juncture of Thai political development.

----------


## mao say dung

> From then on things have just gotten worse.


Indeed. Now, instead of only 20~% of the electorate having any real interest or investment in democratic politics, you have many more voters who actually care about who they vote for and therefore whether that vote is allowed to stand or not. 

Of course, from an *pro-democratic* perspective this is a good thing. 

It's a shame that said development has resulted in such rancorous division within the society, but when one side of the divide has all the guns and most of the money and can, whenever it chooses, simply deny the other side its democratic rights and does so without impunity, there is bound to be resentment and anger.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by Buksida
> 
> From then on things have just gotten worse.
> 
> 
> Indeed. Now, instead of only 20~% of the electorate having any real interest or investment in democratic politics, you have many more voters who actually care about who they vote for and therefore whether that vote is allowed to stand or not. 
> 
> Of course, from an *pro-democratic* perspective this is a good thing. 
> 
> It's a shame that said development has resulted in such rancorous division within the society, but when one side of the divide has all the guns and most of the money and can, whenever it chooses, simply deny the other side its democratic rights and does so without impunity, there is bound to be resentment and anger.


This is the annoying part of it, the reds won years ago, just wish they would do something useful with it.




> If you are comparing economic well-being, citizen happiness, security,  stability and all that stuff, this would be a different discussion.


Thanks for being so open about this aspect of it. Its nothing to take lightly. Especially when evaluating the claims made against a certain entity.





> However, this is a discussion narrowly about the presence or absence of Democracy.


Even in this regard I think far more progress was made than in the majority of other SE asian countries. Not saying it was good, just saying it was on the right track.

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by longway

However, this is a discussion narrowly about the presence or absence of Democracy.


*


> *Even in this regard I think far more progress was made than in the majority of other SE asian countries. Not saying it was good, just saying it was on the right track.*




I am also an optimist Longway, and hope this continues.

There is still a "Longway" to go (pardon the pun)

----------


## Rural Surin

> I am also an optimist Longway, and hope this continues.


What is your real stake in Thailand, Calgary?
...and others whom seem quite obsessed in nothing except promoting their blinded political theories.

Roots? Family? 
What is it really?

----------


## SteveCM

> ...the reds won years ago...


Straight questions:

whom do you define as "the reds"?what do you define as "won"?how long is "years ago"?

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Thaksin's fate hinges on reconciliation: PM - The Nation
*
*Thaksin's fate hinges on reconciliation: PM*

          December 8, 2011  1:05 pm 

*Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra on Thursday said  the progress of national reconciliation would dictate the fate of her  brother Thaksin Shinawatra.*

"Everything will depend on bringing about reconciliation," she said.

Yingluck said the issue about Thaksin would be resolved once unity, equality and fairness in law enforcement prevail.

"If all sides abide by the principle of equality and the rule of law,  then there will be a resolution for one another," she said.


The Nation

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ Yingluck coming out once again with her oft heard "rule of law" lines...

----------


## Butterfly

^ yeah basically what she is saying that the rule of law should let her brother get away with breaking the law, as per the elite rule of law

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> ...the reds won years ago...
> 
> 
> Straight questions:whom do you define as "the reds"?what do you define as "won"?how long is "years ago"?


The electorate - and by extension the red leadership who claim to represent them, though I have my doubts that they really do. How long can the facade be maintained?

I think the military, bureaucracy and the police have been eclipsed as a means wielding political power in Thailand, that's what I mean by won. The electorate not strong enough to have its way without compromise, alliances and some strategic thinking on choosing its battles though. And its doing it very badly.

That would depend on how you look at it, but with hindsight I would say 2006, though perhaps it can be said to earlier than that, at some point the balance tipped. I know its ironic to define the year of the coup as the year of the victory, but was a desperate stop gap measure of people whose backs were against the wall, and proved the power of the electorate.

----------


## SteveCM

^Thanks for the straight answers.

As I've raised before (https://teakdoor.com/1863112-post58.html), the last major survey - conducted Sept/Oct 2010 - identified only 14% as "red/leaning red" (7% each). Thus still only a small - if significant and vocal - part of the electorate. While they may well have been more likely to vote on July 3, it still leaves a much larger proportion of the PT-voting electorate to account for. It's also possible, of course, that many of that remainder were voting anti-Dem rather than pro-PT.

Not sure if by "bureaucracy" you mean the upper-echelon movers and shakers and their connections? If you do, I think the effect is more a move in the shading than an actual eclipse - and what has moved before can move again. Assuming that the military have largely accepted the conventional/widespread wisdom that another coup (at least in "normal" circumstances.....) is out, I think that still leaves them as a looming presence that any government views as needing to be catered to - both in terms of material goodies and their declared prime objective of what they exist to protect. With the noises coming from both Chalerm and MICT on increasingly firm anti-LM protection (plus what seem to be signals of the government staying noticeably "hands-off" where existing cases are concerned), I'm inclined to agree that the military have been (for now) almost neutralised as a threat -  to the point where it seems unlikely that a Dem/PAD/military grouping could make much headway. I've said before that I see this as likely the new government shoring up what it views as a dangerously vulnerable flank; whether they're over-reacting to the danger is in itself an interesting issue. I'm a bit puzzled that you include the police in that trio at all; my take is that they haven't been much of a factor/force in the political/power equations - except by inaction.

Choosing the 2006 date is interesting..... and I would argue/agree that it's actually earlier that the tipping became obvious - at least by the 2005 election. I think the coup was certainly a recognition that the electorate were highly likely to repeat the 2005 result in late 2006 - as they largely did in late 2007 and, of course, 2011.

But I'm still left with that question of seeming to equate "reds" with the main body of the electorate - or directly with PT, come to that. Correct me if I'm misinterpreting what you said.

----------


## Itchy

It took the United States 144 years to become a democracy (passing of the 19th Amendment), The UK took several hundred years to move from Feudalism to Democracy, as did all the nations of Europe - Yet we expect Thailand to achieve this in less than 80 years (while perhaps forgetting it was a military coup that brought an end to absolute monarchy in Thailand).

Democracy my ass.

----------


## Gerbil

> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by longway
> 
> why is it that Thailand was one of the most democratic countries in SE Asia.
> 
> ...



Fuck me Nugget Ferret. Geography one of the other many things you know nothing about? North Korea is not part of SE Asia.

----------


## mao say dung

> It took the United States 144 years to become a democracy (passing of the 19th Amendment), The UK took several hundred years to move from Feudalism to Democracy, as did all the nations of Europe - Yet we expect Thailand to achieve this in less than 80 years (while perhaps forgetting it was a military coup that brought an end to absolute monarchy in Thailand).


[QUOTE="Itchy"]

I don't think anyone would deny either of the points you make here, and as far as they go they are valid points.

But... you are using the word "democracy" as if it had one rather simple meaning. It doesn't, which is why the US was referred to as a democracy long before the passing of the 19th amendment. It is also true that the US continued to democratize after 1920, and not until 1964 were voter registration requirements "equalized" to enfranchise more black voters. Some would argue the process is still continuing today.

Countries that started on the road to some version of full democracy after the 1st WW were working in a very different context than those that started while the ancien regimes of Europe were still very much in power, so there is no reason that they would necessarily take as long as Britain and the US. Japan and South Korea provide Asian examples and their  democratic developments (and their democracies) are very different from what happened in "Western" countries. 80 years is by no means too short a time.

And you seem to think that the movement from absolute monarchy to democracy is a particularly long one. Do you know how long absolute monarchy lasted in Thailand? It certainly wasn't any kind of "native tradition" here.

And the military coup that took place in 1932 was ostensibly led by mainly European educated civilians, with disgruntled Young Turk officers jumping on late but, tragically, effectively. It was this mix, IMO, that provided the mold that shaped the future of democratic reform in Thailand and it is still shaping Thai politics today, although not to the extent it did before Sarit took the helm.

Point is, this is a watershed moment in the history of democratic development in Thailand, and as is the case with watersheds (in one sense of the term), things could go either way over the next few years. And that is not to say that Thailand is on the verge of somehow completing the democratic project, any more than the US was when the 19th amendment passed.

----------


## Itchy

MSD, I agree with everything you say, my point is that democracy, if that is where Thailand is going (and I see solid arguments on both sides of the colour divide that suggest otherwise) is not something that happens overnight or in isolation from a nation's culture and history.

Much is made of the part the Aristocracy are alleged to play in the defeat of democracy in Thailand, little is said of the part Thailand's culture of Patronage plays and absolutely nothing is said of the part played by Thailand's wealthy Chinese Thai Commercial Oligarchy (within which Thaksin resides).

Worst of all is the fact (and it is becoming increasingly obvious) that the popular vote of the Red Shirt Movement has been highjacked by a 'Government' which fails to act for the nation as a whole, ignores the people who voted it into power (other than offering a few crumbs) and acts only for its own self interest.

The inevitable conclusion is that the Red Voters have been hoodwinked by the same old faces, the same old families and the same old firm.

Until and only until, the Red Shirt Movement, or any other Thai popular movement, selects its own candidates and votes its own candidates into power there will be no democracy in Thailand.

Until then Thai Parliament shall remain the reserve of those same old faces, those same old families and that same old firm.

Red or Yellow, only the colour changes and most are willing to swap sides provided they keep their snout in the trough.

----------


## tomta

> The question is not whether was it[ the thaksin goevrnment] good or bad? The question is could anyone else have done better? Last edited by longway : Today at 11:08 AM.


Neither of these is the question.

I thought Thaksin's government was bad and that many people, including myself, could have done better. The Army also thought it was bad and thought they could do better.

But the Thai electorate thought otherwise as is their prerogative. Democracy is not about getting a "good' government. It's about getting a government that the people have chosen. they have every right to elect bad governments if that's what they want.

----------


## Itchy

> Democracy is not about getting a "good' government. It's about getting a government that the people have chosen. they have every right to elect bad governments if that's what they want.


Indeed, many of the modern history's most vile regimes came to power on the back of a popular vote (through appeal to Nationalism, Popularism or Religion).

----------


## tomta

> Quote: Originally Posted by tomta View Post Democracy is not about getting a "good' government. It's about getting a government that the people have chosen. they have every right to elect bad governments if that's what they want. Indeed, many of the modern history's most vile regimes came to power on the back of a popular vote (through appeal to Nationalism, Popularism or Religion).


Ah yes, Godwin's Law very quickly put into action. Well done, Itchy.

The Thaksin regime, as we all know, after one month in power organized the burning of the Reichstag, made the army swear an oath of allegiance to the fuhrer Thaksin, sent the Democrats and PAD to Dachau, stripped the Jews of their citizenship and civil rights, took back the Rhineland, Austria and Sudetenland and then invaded Cambodia.

By the way there is just one little thing you're missing in that trinity of Nationalism, Popularism or Religion. And think about who has appealed to it most.

----------


## sabang

> a 'Government' which fails to act for the nation as a whole, ignores the people who voted it into power ... and acts only for its own self interest


I'm of the view it's very early to be either castigating or lauding the Yingluck administration, but what has this government actually done that might lead you to think that?

----------


## LooseBowels

> You cannot come up with one instance in which a Democrat PM was not eleceted by a parlimentary vote of elected MP's.


Being a self professed supporter of Parliamentary democracy, TH, and the way the dems were installed, would you agree that taksin's removal from office was against the Parliamentary democracy you expouse to support .

Waiting and laughing at you

----------


## LooseBowels

> Originally Posted by Buksida
> 
> From then on things have just gotten worse.
> 
> 
> Indeed. Now, instead of only 20~% of the electorate having any real interest or investment in democratic politics, you have many more voters who actually care about who they vote for and therefore whether that vote is allowed to stand or not. 
> 
> Of course, from an *pro-democratic* perspective this is a good thing. 
> 
> It's a shame that said development has resulted in such rancorous division within the society, but when one side of the divide has all the guns and most of the money and can, whenever it chooses, simply deny the other side its democratic rights and does so without impunity, there is bound to be resentment and anger.


And don't forget the PAD yellow amart nutter stated faschist objective to ethnically cleanse the issarn region. :Smile:

----------


## LooseBowels

Before any meaningful discussion about thai democracy can occur , you have to ask yourself if there is room for amart supported military junta coups, and coup-issued law in that democracy.

If you answer yes, you are a supporter of anti-democracy forces of evil, and cannot hold any credible position regards thai democracy. :Smile:

----------


## LooseBowels

> It's about getting a government that the people have chosen. they have every right to elect bad governments if that's what they want.


Indeed, good in who's eyes, bad in who's eyes.

And if the voters think they are good (PT coalition), they will vote em in again. :Smile: 

And if the voters think they are bad(amart junta proxy dems), they will vote em out.

Its called electoral democracy, and the PAD yellow amart nutters on here should go see what its all about. 

You cant argue with that

----------


## Takeovers

> And if the voters think they are good (PT coalition), they will vote em in again.


Sometimes you have to go with the lesser evil because there is no really good choice.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> he fits so perfectly into their reds are nice but dim stereotype.


I don't know whether he is or not. He's very passionate about his cause and sets himself up because he doesn't have the years of experience here. But maybe you don't either?

Cause I'll tell you this - as sure as it will piss down rain next September - I've rarely met people in this world who are as profoundly fucking stupid as many, if not most, of the upper classes I've had to deal with in Thailand. And I deal with them on a daily basis. They are Tim Nice But Dim right down to the big teeth mate.

----------


## Butterfly

> Democracy is not about getting a "good' government. It's about getting a government that the people have chosen.


actually it's not, again another retard who think he has the definition of Democracy right, just because he can do a direct translation of the Greek meaning of the word

Modern Democracy is about balance of power, nothing else




> they have every right to elect bad governments if that's what they want.


no, that's actually called populism, a form of fascism, certainly not democracy

----------


## Tom Sawyer

You're a broken record tete-merd. Do youever go out on a Friday night? It's unusual for me to be on here on a Friday eve. But things happen. Are you bed-ridden and pushing the keyboard with your nose?

----------


## Butterfly

^ it's worth repeating it several times, retards have a tendency to be slow learners, so repetition is key for them

your spelling is all fucked up, posting drunk already ?

----------


## longway

> ^Thanks for the straight answers.
> 
> As I've raised before (https://teakdoor.com/1863112-post58.html), the last major survey - conducted Sept/Oct 2010 - identified only 14% as "red/leaning red" (7% each). Thus still only a small - if significant and vocal - part of the electorate. While they may well have been more likely to vote on July 3, it still leaves a much larger proportion of the PT-voting electorate to account for. It's also possible, of course, that many of that remainder were voting anti-Dem rather than pro-PT.
> 
> Not sure if by "bureaucracy" you mean the upper-echelon movers and shakers and their connections? If you do, I think the effect is more a move in the shading than an actual eclipse - and what has moved before can move again. Assuming that the military have largely accepted the conventional/widespread wisdom that another coup (at least in "normal" circumstances.....) is out, I think that still leaves them as a looming presence that any government views as needing to be catered to - both in terms of material goodies and their declared prime objective of what they exist to protect. With the noises coming from both Chalerm and MICT on increasingly firm anti-LM protection (plus what seem to be signals of the government staying noticeably "hands-off" where existing cases are concerned), I'm inclined to agree that the military have been (for now) almost neutralised as a threat -  to the point where it seems unlikely that a Dem/PAD/military grouping could make much headway. I've said before that I see this as likely the new government shoring up what it views as a dangerously vulnerable flank; whether they're over-reacting to the danger is in itself an interesting issue. I'm a bit puzzled that you include the police in that trio at all; my take is that they haven't been much of a factor/force in the political/power equations - except by inaction.
> 
> Choosing the 2006 date is interesting..... and I would argue/agree that it's actually earlier that the tipping became obvious - at least by the 2005 election. I think the coup was certainly a recognition that the electorate were highly likely to repeat the 2005 result in late 2006 - as they largely did in late 2007 and, of course, 2011.
> 
> But I'm still left with that question of seeming to equate "reds" with the main body of the electorate - or directly with PT, come to that. Correct me if I'm misinterpreting what you said.


It is somewhat ambiguous and confusing to call the electorate as reds. I am clumsily referring to the claim made that the reds are democracy supporters, however this stance is not unique to red movement and extends to nearly all the voters in Thailand, and I think in that sense the movement has a very broad base, more than the opinion polls to which you referred. However with hind sight I think it's better to differentiate between the electorate as a whole and the red supporters.

The red leadership is another matter and I very much doubt most of it pays anything other than lip service to that alleged ideal.

I see thailand's political situation as something analogous to 1942  or 1943 in ww2 the writing is on the wall, but there is still a lot that can change. The red leadership, deliberately or not, are determined to engender instability, instability is an anathema for democracy, it can lead anywhere, but it won't be democracy. 

The red leadership never allows it's supporters to understand they have already won in the sense I speak about, it tries to make out the opposite in fact, that is highly irresponsible at the very least and I think quite reprehensible that thailand's hard won gains could be thrown away just for political power games.

The same as the PAD leadership, the red leadership only shows it's supporters one half of the whole picture, each emphasizes only the opposite half to it's supporters.

The police have a huge influence politically, as they supposedly enforce the laws, IMO the police on a day to day level have the greatest direct negative impact on thailand's citizens, but are afaik they are never singled out for criticism by the red leadership, that silence speaks volumes.

The red movement as it is today is unnecessary and IMO detrimental to the establishment of true democracy in Thailand. It was doing much better without it, they have had 5 years to make a positive impact, and we are still waiting for something worthwhile that would benefit Thai society as a whole. And no, electing the PT government is not a step in the right directions, it's a meaningless distraction, it can do so much better.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> The question is not whether was it[ the thaksin goevrnment] good or bad? The question is could anyone else have done better? Last edited by longway : Today at 11:08 AM.
> 
> 
> Neither of these is the question.
> 
> I thought Thaksin's government was bad and that many people, including myself, could have done better. The Army also thought it was bad and thought they could do better.
> 
> But the Thai electorate thought otherwise as is their prerogative. Democracy is not about getting a "good' government. It's about getting a government that the people have chosen. they have every right to elect bad governments if that's what they want.


In fact I was not talking about Thaksin's government, but someone who has been allegedly at the heart of things for decades. When evaluating criticism about him, how do we derive the baseline? IMO it's by comparing Thailand with it's peers. I think it comes out rather favorably.

In practical terms, could anyone else have done any better? IMO the answer is no, and most would have done considerably worse.

----------


## LooseBowels

^^ Are you Buttered arses shrink, or her patient. :Smile:

----------


## sabang

> The red movement as it is today is unnecessary and IMO detrimental


Would you still think that if they voted for the party you wished they would vote for?
Whatever the case, I disagree- I think they are a very positive development overall.
Don't be at all surprised if you see the PT 'party machine' trying to weaken them.
They are not a mere proxy for PT, or Thaksin. In fact they are a significant force in holding them accountable.

----------


## longway

^ fair enough, I am possibly being too judgmental. I think the PT machine has been too influential already.  Overall I wanted the PT to win, albeit with less seats, But perhaps this is better as the PT now has no excuses, and no economic boom to make them look better than they really are.

As long as thaksin is kept under control another round of turmoil ( well no more than normal for Thailand  :bananaman: ) or some kind of coup is unlikely. They will just squabble amongst themselves and steal as much as possible, just like most of the other governments, I am hoping the rank and file Reds will see through them and some positive change will take effect.

Emotionally I would have preferred abhisit as PM, but let's face it, he has not got what it takes to make the positive changes required, and is far too tainted anyway.

----------


## longway

> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by longway
> 
> why is it that Thailand was one of the most democratic countries in SE Asia.
> 
> ...


I disagree, I think there is no correlation with the number of coups in thailand and the state of democracy, it's been postulated in this manner as it's a convenient spin to make the red supporters more subservient, it's more about responsible voting, eradicating vote buying and other things than pretending a coup is in the offing every 5 minutes.

Afaik Thailand had more coups than any other SE Asian country, yet it's level of democratic progress was far healthier than most of it's peers, and without a red in sight.

I am not saying coups are a good thing, but they died off in 1991, most likely as Thailand's level of economic development precluded them. it took some very special circumstances to bring about the 2006 one, I think it was a special case. What's on the horizon is very special indeed for thailand, I think you know what I mean without me spelling it out.

----------


## Butterfly

> The red leadership never allows it's supporters to understand they have already won in the sense I speak about, it tries to make out the opposite in fact, that is highly irresponsible at the very least and I think quite reprehensible that thailand's hard won gains could be thrown away just for political power games.


very well put, but logic here doesn't work, ask Stevie or Calgary

----------


## LooseBowels

> it took some very special circumstances to bring about the 2006 one, I think it was a special case


What a fool, trying to justify illegal military junta political coups. :Smile: 
Bur thats the PAD for you.

----------


## StrontiumDog

TAN_Network   TAN News Network                                                   

_NIDA Poll: most respondents support reinstating Thaksin's passport but believes his return to fight charges will cause chaos_

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Public split on 1997 charter: survey - The Nation
*
*Public split on 1997 charter: survey*

         The Nation December 12, 2011  1:00 am 

*The public is about evenly split on the  reinstatement of the 2007 constitution and this could flare up into a  fresh round of political conflict, according to Abac Poll.*

The public is about evenly split on the reinstatement of the 1997  constitution and this could flare up into a fresh round of political  conflict, according to Abac Poll.

"Since the numbers of opponents and supporters of the [1997]  constitution are almost equal, it could lead to national division,''  Noppadon Kannikar, director of the pollster, said yesterday.

The results of its opinion poll showed that 38.4 per cent of 1,994  respondents disagree with reintroducing the 1997 charter but would not  rally against its reinstatement, while 9.2 per cent disagree and would  protest against it. 

Of the respondents, 35.2 per cent agree with the idea but would not  rally in support, while 17.2 per cent agree and would rally in support.

The survey of eligible voters found that 89.7 per cent believe in a  democratic government, while the rest, 10.3 per cent, think democracy is  not a good system.

About 91.5 per cent believe a democratic system was better than other  governing systems, although there could be corruption and injustice.

The pollster reported that 72.2 per cent are convinced that the  political parties in the government camp buy votes and 66.5 per cent  believe that the main opposition party also offered money and supplies  in return for votes during the election campaign.

Of the respondents, 43.2 per cent feel that vote-buying worsened from the 2008 election to this year's election.

After the big robbery at the mansion of the permanent secretary of the  Transport Ministry, 90 per cent believe more ill-gotten money was hidden  in the homes of politicians and government officials, while 8.3 per  cent think otherwise.

A Nida poll suggested that most people believe former prime minister  Thaksin Shinawatra could return home if his Thai passport is reissued.  They also assume that government politicians got involved in Thaksin's  passport issuance procedures.

On what would happen if Thaksin staged a comeback, 68 per cent are  afraid the country would be in turmoil, while 48.5 per cent look forward  to him becoming the country's leader again.

----------


## StrontiumDog

"_while 48.5 per cent look forward  to him becoming the country's leader again._"

Surprise, surprise....

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by The Nation

The public is about evenly split on the reinstatement of the 2007 constitution and this could flare up into a fresh round of political conflict, according to Abac Poll.


*

Guaranteed*.*

The UDD is is ramping up to hold the PTP _feet to the fire,_ to eliminate a coup, military constitution, constructed in part to justify its own anti-democratic actions.

The election losers will be "_sucking sand_" trying to prevent it.

----------


## Pol the Pot

> Originally Posted by Calgary
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by longway
> ...


Compared to communist countries like Vietnam and Laos, dictatorships like Burma, corrupt shit holes like the Phills and Cambodia Thailand is indeed doing well.

But the way it's been controlled since the second world war is going to show sooner or later. 

The more educated people get the less likely it will be possible to keep them subjugated.

10 more years and Thailand won't be number 3 or four in ASEAN but at #5.

So I think it's level of democratic progress needs to be put into perspective. Basically it's a small step above most of its neighbours, that's about it.

And no Reds in sight?

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by Pol the Pot

But the way it's


*


> (Thailand)* been controlled since the second world war is going to show sooner or later.*




But I have seen a lot of progress the ten years I have been here, with respect to knowingly knowing the controller.

The Reds have a favorite T-shirt worn by many showing a large eye-ball - indicating their eyes are open now.

*




 Originally Posted by Pol the Pot

And no Reds in sight?


*

I think and hope that is changing as we speak.

They have been patient so far, delayed somewhat by the flood disaster.

But now the "_writing seems to be on the wall'_ for this PTP Govt.

It seems they are choosing the "_path of least resistance_", glorifying the glorified one, and being insensitive to the Red shirts who put them where they are.

It has been noted that Ms. Y has never mentioned the Red Shirts in any of her pronouncements.

Plans are afoot to sensitize them to the demands of those they can thank for their success.

----------


## StrontiumDog

tulsathit   tulsathit                                                   

            In exclusive interview published in Matichon, Noppadol says Thaksin camp is ready for peace talks with opponents.

Key points for suggested peace talks with Thaksin revolve around seized money, "political convictions" and charter amendments.

Asked why Thaksin wants peace talks now, Noppadol says "Crisis has wasted our energy, opportunities, and children's future."

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Bangkok Post : Thai Rath Editorial
*
*Thai Rath Editorial*
Published: 12/12/2011 at 12:00 AMNewspaper section: News
 Thaksin Shinawatra's legal advisers have denied  media reports that the deposed prime minister is getting involved in a  cabinet reshuffle expected to be made some time next year. The denial  was made in the wake of strong criticism from  Thaksin's opponents, who  claimed that a group of Pheu Thai Party MPs had flown to China, where  they met  Thaksin who was on vacation there. The ex-premier reportedly  told the MPs that a cabinet reshuffle could be made after the New Year.

 Thaksin's opponents immediately seized on the reports, claiming they  were proof that the deposed prime minister is the real power behind the  government led by his younger sister Yingluck.

 Without Thaksin, who is still highly popular among the grassroots  people, the Pheu Thai Party would not have won the July 3 general  election, they claimed.

 Thaksin himself had admitted in interviews with the Thai media that  several people had lobbied him for ministerial posts in the Yingluck  government.

 This gave the impression that Ms Yingluck did not have the sole power to choose her cabinet ministers.

 If the prime minister has to continually deny such reports, her credibility will be eroded.

 It's high time that Thaksin stopped giving media interviews that reflect negatively on his sister.

 He may give advice, but he does not have to tell the world about it.

 Ms Yingluck is officially the head of the Executive Branch. She is  the commander-in-chief of the government. And she can consult her own  advisers on a daily basis.

----------


## Calgary

*^*
*




 Originally Posted by Bangkok Post

Thaksin's opponents immediately seized on the reports, claiming they were proof that the deposed prime minister is the real power behind the government led by his younger sister Yingluck.


*
Is there a problem with that?

Begs the question, who was the real power behind Abhi.

The only difference, we can talk about one, but not the other.

Although to be brutally frank, some Red Shirts are also beginning to wonder who the real power is behind the PTP Govt, and it may not be Thaksin.

I understand that Ms. Y. is 'summoned' regularly for consultations.

The UDD are planning to bring pressure to bear to change this reality, if it is such.
*




 Originally Posted by Bangkok Post

Without Thaksin, who is still highly popular among the grassroots people, the Pheu Thai Party would not have won the July 3 general election, they claimed.


*
Could be.

Did this writer just wake up to this fact.

Seriously, the entire point of this article is to inflame the PADites amongst us.

They are still living in previous times, when they couldn't repeat often enough who Samak and Somchai were proxy's for.

The difference this time, if there is any, is that the voters in the last election knew all of this when they voted. 

It isn't as if the voters unwittingly voted for Ms. Y and would not have, if they had known about this proxy thing.

----------


## Seekingasylum

........and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and........

----------


## crippen



----------


## Mid

> The public is about evenly split on the reinstatement of the 2007 constitution


Hogwash !!!

Fokin sample of 1000 odd , complete garbage

----------


## SteveCM

^ I disagree (other than The Notion plainly got their Constitutions mixed up in their first line - the 2007 version is still current so it could hardly be "reinstated").

The report actually mentions a sample size of 1,994 which is already nearly double the so-called "gold standard" of major western polling organisations like Gallup, YouGov, Ipsos-Mori etc - i.e. a few over 1,000 for questions put to the general population to achieve a typical +/- 3% margin of error. Identifying more specific sub-groups does call for a larger sample to achieve that expected accuracy. See Best Estimates: A Guide to Sample Size and Margin of Error | Public Agenda As a broad generalisation, longer/more complex polls (more questions and options) call for bigger samples because fewer people answer all the questions.

As always, it's neutrality of the methodology that's crucial - truly random spread sampling (with responsible demographic weighting if appropriate), framing/order of questions etc.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Calgary
> ...


Putting things in perspective is the whole point of my post, most of SE asia are indeed shit holes compared to Thailand.

Thailand is a work in progress, though it is still far ahead of its peers.

Here's a handy comparison.

Press Freedom Index 2002 - Reporters Without Borders

Reporters without borders press freedom index ranking

2002 
Thailand 65
Malaysia 110

2005
Thailand 107
Malaysia 113

Yes its worse now, the PT have any plans to make things better?

----------


## hazz

^^^Presumably you are both referring to these quotes from an earlier post:




> The results of its opinion poll showed that 38.4 per cent of 1,994 respondents disagree with reintroducing the 1997 charter but would not rally against its reinstatement, while 9.2 per cent disagree and would protest against it.





> On what would happen if Thaksin staged a comeback, 68 per cent are afraid the country would be in turmoil, while 48.5 per cent look forward to him becoming the country's leader again.


On the rather dubious assumption that this sample of 1994 people is random, the sample size is 1994 people, and the yes choice is 48.5%

The 95% confidence range is 46.3-50.7%
The 99% confidence range is 45.6-51.4%

calling these figures garbage purely on the sample size is a little bit unkind. Although I would not want to make the decision on whether or not to call a referendum on a save taksin constitution based on this survey.

I wish someone would just come out and ask the elephant question.

would you vote for any constitution that grants an amnesty to taksin?

something with a sample size between 10-100k, given that the answer is going to be close to the 50% make, you need the large sample to have confidence which side on this make the answer is

----------


## SteveCM

^^^ Incidentally, there's a different (and IMO curious) wording in Bkk Post's reporting of the poll results:

*Bangkok Post : Poll: Majority for return of 1997 charter*
Published: 11/12/2011 at 11:54 AMOnline news: Local News...
Of the majority (52.4 per cent) who agreed to the call for the  reinstatement of the 1997 charter, replacing the 2007 charter, 35.2 per  cent said they would not persuade other people to join the call while  17.2 per cent said they would ask other people to join.


 Of those who disagreed (47.6 per cent), 38.4 per cent said they would  not ask other people to join the opposition while 9.2 per cent said  they would ask other people to do that.
...

----------


## SteveCM

^^^ Any particular reason for selecting just that pair of dates? Here's the full range of available rankings - with indices. As always with these stats/rankings, one also needs to look at what was going on in the specific countries in a given year to affect its score. The picture seems not quite as clear-cut as from just the pair you selected but, fair to say, neither is doing famously well.
*
2010* 
141     Malaysia     50,75
153     Thailand     56,83

*2009* 
130     Thailand     44,00    
131     Malaysia     44,25

*2008* 
124     Thailand     34,50    
132     Malaysia     39,50     

*2007* 
124     Malaysia     41,00 
135     Thailand     53,50    

*2006* 
  92 Malaysia     22,25
122     Thailand     33,50      

*2005* 
107     Thailand     28,00    
113     Malaysia     33,00

*2004* 
   59 Thailand     14,00    
122     Malaysia     39,83

*2003  * 
  82 Thailand     19,67    
104     Malaysia     32,00  

*2002  * 
  65 Thailand     22,75    
110     Malaysia     37,83

----------


## longway

^ Main reason both years are within Thaksin's era, one close to the beginning and the other just before the coup.

I take your point that its not a B&W picture, it would be interesting to see why 2004 did relatively well.

It would have been also very interesting to see rankings like these for previous years too, but none are available.

I think it worth noting how Malaysia without LM laws, always ranks badly, while Thailand has done much better in the past.

Personally what I think what most arguments about LM miss is that if it was not there something much worse could be implemented to replace it, unless the underlying problems are addressed first. The junta was quick to put in even more draconian laws and the PT quick to amend them for their own purposes.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

Again - these kind of polls are bullshit. You really need to see and understand the way they ask the questions in Thai. I have - several times. They'd never stand up to international standards/scrutiny. They are biased from the outset. (edit to add that ABAC and DUSIT are not even recognised/accredited to international polling standards). It's all part of the mind-control freak game that's played here.

----------


## Scaramanga

> I think it worth noting how Malaysia without LM laws, always ranks badly, while Thailand has done much better in the past.


Longway, with respect, maybe you should look at the history of how LM laws have increased since the days Thaksin was PM in comparison with censorship laws of the time rather than trying linking the two.

I am no way a fan of Thaksin but also look at how how the media was treating him: he was wrong to censor them in my opinion, but this was Thailand at a time when the Establishment who still mostly own the media wanted him out and still do.

----------


## SteveCM

> I think it worth noting how *Malaysia without LM laws, always ranks badly*, while Thailand has done much better in the past.


For a reason (about Malaysia's ranking), I think you need look no further than Internal Security Act (Malaysia) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - and, while I can't remember the specifics, there are also fairly draconian blasphemy laws to protect the Muslim religion, "public morals" etc. The situation regarding possible LM in Malaysia is also in a state of flux..... not unrelated to both their national and religious politics.

Yang di-Pertuan Agong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Asia Sentinel - Malaysia's Rulers Want Lese Majeste Law

https://teakdoor.com/1648289-post1.html

Asia Sentinel - Criticizing Malaysia's Royals

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> it took some very special circumstances to bring about the 2006 one, I think it was a special case
> 
> 
> Wibble wibble


you can't argue with that.  :Smile:

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> I think it worth noting how Malaysia without LM laws, always ranks badly, while Thailand has done much better in the past.
> 
> 
> Longway, with respect, maybe you should look at the history of how LM laws have increased since the days Thaksin was PM in comparison with censorship laws of the time rather than trying linking the two.
> 
> I am no way a fan of Thaksin but also look at how how the media was treating him: he was wrong to censor them in my opinion, but this was Thailand at a time when the Establishment who still mostly own the media wanted him out and still do.


I agree with you, but neither of what you and Steve have pointed out contradict that if LM laws did not exist there have could be something much more restrictive in it's place years ago.

In fact steves post seems to allude that this is what happened in Malaysia and it's getting worse.

PT does not have any democratic instincts whatsoever, their first instinct having draconian censorship laws is to try and modify them to their own advantage, rather than repeal them.

The underlying problems are not being addressed by the reds, let alone anyone else. In fact I still think they just make things worse. Far too negative, nothing constructive.

----------


## StrontiumDog

And while we are on the subject...I presume they mean websites....

TAN_Network   TAN News Network                                                   

_Deputy PM Chalerm to launch crackdown on lese majeste website tomorrow_

----------


## DroversDog

> And while we are on the subject...I presume they mean websites....
> 
> TAN_Network   TAN News Network                                                   
> 
> _Deputy PM Chalerm to launch crackdown on lese majeste website tomorrow_


Good, just leave the porn sites alone  :ssssh:

----------


## SteveCM

^^^ Longway, you might (and others here certainly will) label this as naive, but I currently view this government's instincts as currently focused uppermost on survival. I see their position as fragile - though maybe not as fragile as they (seem to) see it. The government being (obviously enough) composed of Thai politicians, I have no illusions about the quality of its deep-seated democratic ideals and convictions as compared to its capacity to be self-serving. Not only that, this is largely the "B" if not the "C' team - and it'll be very revealing to see what improvement in political skills and confidence may emerge when the banned 111 become available in six months time..... assuming the government lasts that long.

For now, I see the "more Catholic than the pope" stance on LM as most likely a consequence of the forces being lined up against them, all too ready to brand any perceived "going soft" on LM as evidence of actually being against the institution itself - a charge that was a key feature of their opponents' election campaign. For recent and ongoing examples of it, look at what Dem deputy spokesperson Mallika is coming out with - with Abhisit not exactly rushing to silence her. Some PT figures (Anudit at MICT, for example) are quite possibly full-blooded "royalists" anyway - while the rest need only to view the danger of the mud sticking as enough reason to shore up/seal off a vulnerable flank. That approach would by itself explain the assiduous courting of the military - giving them enough of the material goodies and ideological reassurance they want so as to remove their main motives for intervening. Without the military, the Dems and PAD are not much more than noisy hecklers.

IMO, it's still very much a fledgeling government and a huge chunk of its first few months in office has been "swamped" (no pun intended) by the floods - a crisis that certainly hasn't boosted its standing. Even without that, there was _never_ going to be a "honeymoon" period - not with almost the entire Thai media and establishment arrayed against them. The most they can hope for in the next few months is a calming down and gradually growing acceptance that they are now the government and do have a sizable popular mandate behind them. But that mandate by itself is certainly not so large as to provide the guaranteed clout and hence the will to simply steamroller any and all measures through come what may.

In this scenario, jumping to take the approach that Giles Ungkaporn* and the more ideologically "pure" reds suggest they should seems tantamount to committing political suicide - something which I suspect would really please some who are advocating such a move. All this may well seem "negative" and not "constructive"..... and certainly it's anything but ideal - but it _is_ realpolitik.

* https://teakdoor.com/1959785-post270.html

----------


## Gerbil

> Even without that, there was never going to be a "honeymoon" period


It doesn't help when they themselves made claims of solving problems within 3 months, 6 months or other ridiculous timescales.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Noppadol: Peace proposal was my idea - The Nation
*
*Noppadol: Peace proposal was my idea*

         The Nation December 13, 2011  1:00 am 
 

*Noppadol Pattama, the legal adviser to former prime  minister Thaksin Shinawatra, yesterday defended his six-point proposal  for national reconciliation, saying it has nothing to do with his  client.*

Noppadol, a former foreign minister, said the measures, including amending the constitution, were all his personal idea.

The recipe for reconciliation was designed to restore justice, lead to  "sustainable democracy" and bring about national harmony, but he was not  surprised by the Democrat Party’s criticisms, he said.

Democrat Party spokesman Chavanont Intarakomalsut lashed out at  Noppadol and offered a six-point counterproposal, including a call for  Thaksin, who has fled abroad to escape a criminal conviction here, to  stop meddling in politics and accept the judicial process without  question.

The attempt to seek a pardon for Thaksin is putting society on a collision course, he said.

The red shirts should "wake up" and realise that their political  struggle over the past two years was not for democracy, he said.

Noppadol's proposal made no mention of class conflicts and the struggle  does not make the poor - called "phrai" by the red shirts - themselves,  any richer, while the only person benefiting from the struggle is  Thaksin, he added.

Democrat Party MP Buranachai Samutarak said if any reconciliation  proposal was aimed at helping Thaksin to retrieve his "ill-gotten"  wealth and return to power, then the Democrats may not join the national  reconciliation process.

That kind of proposal would only kindle a new round of political conflagration, he said.

Appointed Senator Surachai Liangboonlertchai, a member of the now  defunct junta-appointed constitution drafting assembly, defended the  2007 charter framed by the assembly.

The public should not be concerned about how the charter came about but should focus on the content instead, he said.

The charter, as the supreme law of the land, should not be amended so  often. Those in a position to benefit or lose from it are not qualified  to propose any revisions, he said.

Article 237, which has come under pressure for allowing a political  party to be dissolved if its executives are found guilty of election  fraud, was meant to ensure that elections were free and fair.

Some "weaknesses" could be found in the charter, he admitted, but would not elaborate.

On Thaksin's return, he questioned what would happen if the ex-premier  was granted a pardon but that did not foster national reconciliation.

Kwanchai Praipana, a red-shirt leader in Udon Thani, said he would  arrange for the ordination of 999 red shirts at Sanam Luang this month  in honour of His Majesty the King and in the hope that Thaksin will be  granted a royal pardon.

He condemned the government for becoming attached to amending the charter instead of facilitating Thaksin's homecoming.

"We can't wait any longer," he said.

----------


## LooseBowels

> Appointed Senator Surachai Liangboonlertchai, a member of the now defunct junta-appointed constitution drafting assembly, defended the 2007 charter framed by the assembly.


"Junta-appointed"    say no more :Smile: 





> The public should not be concerned about how the charter came about


PAD yellow nutter faschist dictatorship




> but should focus on the content instead, he said.


The content is exactly what folk are focused on, and they don't like it, or what it stands for

----------


## sabang

> Appointed Senator Surachai Liangboonlertchai, a member of the now defunct junta-appointed constitution drafting assembly, defended the 2007 charter framed by the assembly. The public should not be concerned about how the charter came about but should focus on the content instead, he said. The charter, as the supreme law of the land, should not be amended so often. Those in a position to benefit or lose from it are not qualified to propose any revisions, he said.


Oh, I see. So the same Senator who says the public should not be concerned how the new Charter came about (ie illegally) says the Charter should not be changed so often. The same Senator who was appointed to the senate after helping draft the illegitimate military Charter says those who benefit or lose from it should not propose any revisions. What a turkey.

Bottom line though, I agree- there is no point in revising it. Throw it out, it is illegal and illegitimate.

----------


## Pol the Pot

That's just Thailand and Malaysia.

Bring in Cambodia (that 'corrupt shithole of a turd world country') and it gets real interesting. Consistently 20 odd places _above_ either since 2008.

Thailand is average at best (within ASEAN).

Press Freedom Index 2010 - Reporters Without Borders




> Originally Posted by Pol the Pot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by longway
> ...

----------


## sabang

The 'public consumption' excuses for getting rid of Thaksin via illegal Putsch were corruption, and Press repression. Both got significantly worse after the Putsch.

----------


## Rural Surin

> The 'public consumption' excuses for getting rid of Thaksin via illegal Putsch were corruption, and Press repression. Both got significantly worse after the Putsch.


Perhaps we wouldn't have such manipulation and apathy if even half the population had the inner wherewithal to question/challenge instinctively, en lieu of consuming the fed pablum.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Bangkok Post : Pheu Thai resolute on amnesty
*
*Pheu Thai resolute on amnesty*

*Party wants bill tabled at next House session* 
Published: 13/12/2011 at 12:00 AMNewspaper section: News
 The Pheu Thai Party has vowed to push an amnesty  bill through parliament when the House convenes its next session later  this month.

 Pheu Thai MP for Nakhon Phanom and government deputy chief whip  Phaijit Sriworakhan yesterday said the party will work with other  coalition parties to push for the amnesty bill to be tabled during the  next parliamentary session.

 Mr Phaijit said the party will call a meeting today to prepare for  the next House session which will primarily focus on deliberating and  passing legislation drafts.

 He said Pheu Thai needs to make sure party members have reached a  common position on these issues before the House meeting begins on Dec  21.

 Mr Phaijit confirmed the party will press ahead with the  constitutional amendments and with an amnesty bill bid, which were part  of the party's election campaign pledges this year and most party MPs  from all regions have agreed to this.

 It is now up to the prime minister and the party executives to  clarify when and how the party will set out to act on the issues, Mr  Phaijit said.

 He said the party will hold public hearings to listen to public  opinion on proposed amendments on some controversial laws, such as the  Defence Ministry Administration Act or the amnesty bill. Bills to amend  the constitution and to amend other laws such as the Defence Ministry  Administration Act and other legislation bills, notably the amnesty  bill, are expected to be tabled for consideration at the next House  meeting.

 Mr Phaijit said the content of the amnesty bill will be modelled on  the recommendation of a special parliamentary committee on national  reconciliation chaired by Matubhum Party leader Gen Sonthi  Boonyaratkalin. The committee has asked King Prajadhipok's Institute to  draw up a road map for national reconciliation.

 Mr Phaijit admitted some members of the committee have opposed the  amnesty bill. He said it was best for its critics to try to find a  common ground acceptable to all sides.

 Anti-Thaksin groups fear the Pheu Thai Party-led government will try  to use the report to create a new amnesty law that would pave the way  for the return of former premier Thaksin Shinawatra, who was ousted in a  2006 coup led by Gen Sonthi.

 Mr Phaijit believed the amnesty bill should at least pass the first reading during the four-month House session.

 Pheu Thai MP for Nong Bua Lamphu Chaiya Promma, the committee's  spokesman, insisted the committee has nothing to do with proposing any  legislation or legal amendments. It is up to the King Prajadhipok's  Institute to come up with any recommendations, Mr Chaiya said.

 Chaiyaphat Prapassawat, director the Institute for Community Rights, disagreed with Pheu Thai's amnesty bill move.

 He said the primary aim of the move is to clear the name of Thaksin and bring him back to Thailand.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/poli...-launch-agenda
*
*Pheu Thai poised to launch agenda*

*ANALYSIS: As the floods end, the focus shifts back to Thaksin*
Published: 13/12/2011 at 12:00 AMNewspaper section: News
 After the floods receded in many areas and the  King's birthday on Dec 5 passed, the weather cooled down, but politics  did not given the number of recent flare-ups.

 According to Pheu Thai Party spokesman Prompong Nopparit, the ruling  party will hold its MPs meeting today to push forward several  controversial issues. They include the 2007 Charter amendment, an  amnesty bill, and amending the Defence Ministry administrative act.

 Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra made her government's intentions  clear on her weekly radio programme on Saturday. She said that the  "constitution is an assurance of people's freedom and the country's  constitutional monarchy administration. So having a good constitution is  an important factor in bringing about peace and reconciliation in the  nation."

 On the same day, the red shirts held a rally calling for replacing the 2007 charter with the 1997 charter.

  Critics say the Yingluck administration's planned amendments to the  charter, particularly that of Section 309 which insulates the 2006 coup  maker from prosecution and legitimises all of their actions, would  nullify the results of investigations into any alleged corrupt practices  during the Thaksin Shinawatra regime _ clearing the path for him to  return home.

 Also, some consider the planned amnesty bill merely a tool to help  ousted prime minister Thaksin. And the planned changes to the Defence  Ministry administrative act would pave the way for the government to  intervene in military reshuffles to ensure stability, pundits say.

 This three-pronged drive reflects Pheu Thai's gearing up in pursuit  of its ultimate goal _ which critics say is to help get Thaksin back as  it promised voters during the election campaign. They are going for the  prize at a time that society remains exhausted from the severe floods.  Such rapid moves come with a high risk, but the prospect of high return.

 "If the government can asses the situation well and know what issues  will ignite conflict, it can stay longer in office," academic Somchai  Srisuthiyakorn said. "But if it is just using its advantage from winning  a majority of votes and financial power, it will face problems  eventually."

 Mr Somchai, also secretary-general of the People's Network for  Elections in Thailand (P-Net), said the ruling party's internal  management lacks unity. Despite having the same objectives, some groups  are impatient and move in their own direction. Meanwhile, leading  members of the party cannot control them. This type of internal disarray  can cause conflicts in society.

 Pongthep Thepkanchana, one of the 111 former Thai Rak Thai executives  suspended for five years, echoed the academic's sentiments, saying that  the government's priority seems to be to restore its popularity, which  was affected by its handling of the flood crisis. The government should  accelerate implementation of its urgent policies.

 "If your popularity declines, it's easy to be attacked by opponents  and it even opens opportunities for them to do it again," he said,  referring to the 2006 coup.

 "Anything connected to Thaksin instantly touches off resistance. The  government should be wary about trivial issues like trying to return  Thaksin his passport," he said.

 Pheu Thai is seemingly relying on three strategic pillars to reach  its goal _ pushing efforts for post-flood rehabilitation to restore its  popularity, driving its efforts via controllable bureaucratic  mechanisms, and utilising its majority votes in parliament.

 "We still need at least 300 seats in the House so coalition partners  will be kept despite a cabinet reshuffle," party spokesman Mr Prompong  said.

 Several recent political incidents tell us Pheu Thai seems to be following the strategy.

 On Dec 7, fugitive red shirt leader Arisman Pongruangrong  surprisingly surrendered to Pattaya police _ after 18 months on the run _  and then to the Department of Special Investigation the following day  to hear terrorism charges.

 Then the Corrections Department announced that it would relocate a  large number of red shirts currently detained at Khlong Prem Prison to  the old Bang Khen police private school, seen as more comfortable.

 In a related move, the Metropolitan Police Bureau summoned former  prime minister Abhisit Vejjajiva and former deputy prime minister Suthep  Thaugsuban for questioning.

 On Dec 6, police found a home-made bomb planted near the Government  Lottery Office and then Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yubamrung came up  with a conspiracy theory that the plot was masterminded by an old power  clique linked to the 2006 coup maker. The separate incidents seem to  lead in the same destination _ social conflict.

 "If it were a boxing match, the government would be opening its face  too much to its rivals, because it believes in its advantages. Now it  can be patient, but if it fails to change tactics, it may be knocked out  one day," Mr Somchai said.

----------


## StrontiumDog

Thai-ASEAN News Network



Pheu Thai MP Criticizes Govt for Assenting to Outside Influence 

UPDATE : 13 December 2011                      *

A Pheu Thai Party MP lashes out at his  own government, saying that it is subjected to outside manipulation  which is preventing it from performing properly.

 Pheu Thai Party list MP Prakiat Nasimma said the Yingluck Shinawatra  government is totally impotent in solving political and economic  problems, as well as the flood crisis even though has the power and  public support. 
*

He added that this is because the true commanding authority belongs to a  person outside the Cabinet, whose main objective is focused on amending  the Constitution and securing a royal pardon.

Prakiat noted that even the Prime Minister herself can only give orders  based on given cues, while Deputy PM and Interior Minister Yongyuth  Wichaidit once expressed discomfort about overlapping duties among  agencies and officials.

He added that some cabinet members are bickering with each other, while  some ministerial secretaries seem to have more influence than the  ministers themselves.

The Pheu Thai MP went on to say that while it is generally understood  that Thailand is a free market economy, it is, in fact, an oligopoly  with investors determining prices and farmers just being the suppliers  of raw materials. 

He added this is why more than 40 million Thais remain poor and the  government's populist policies are simply weakening them further. 

Prakiat said at this moment, there is no way to fix this except to wait until the current administration completes its term. 

He insisted that he is just expressing his opinion about things that he  thinks are wrong, as an individual who has freedom of speech.

----------


## SteveCM

See also *Bangkok Post : Govt must choose wisely, act quickly to stay in power* posted at  https://teakdoor.com/1960605-post1225.html

----------


## sabang

> The Pheu Thai MP went on to say that while it is generally understood that Thailand is a free market economy, it is, in fact, an oligopoly with investors determining prices and farmers just being the suppliers of raw materials.


Smart cookie. I'm not convinced, however, that a majority of PT MP's really wish to change this status quo. But at least their policies, if implemented, are a step in the right direction.

----------


## hazz

> "We still need at least 300 seats in the House so coalition partners will be kept despite a cabinet reshuffle," party spokesman Mr Prompong said.


These 300 seats do seem to be a very important issue to PT, otherwise it could simply have taken the voters mandate and formed a government on their own. 

The only reason that I can think of this is to use the constitution and the law to change the constitution without putting the thai public to the trouble of deciding for themselves if they want this new constitution or not. whilst completely legal, it does smack of 'we only like democracy, when it delivers the result we want'.

----------


## SteveCM

^ Another reason is the convention (at least that, but anyway a rule in practice) that ministers don't participate in certain types of vote. IIRC that includes confidence/censure motions and "money" bills.

----------


## Mid

just as a matter of interest how long is it since T was overthrown ?

'cause he ain't been outa the News for a single day since  :mid: 

 :rofl:

----------


## hazz

^^Fare enough, they have a majority of 15; so coalition partner(s) would be needed to secure the 'no-minister' votes. Given the fractious nature of thai politics you do need a lot of ministerial and deputy positions to ensure you can reward the ego's that need it, but are there really 49 ministers!

^Well lets be honest he is one of the two people at the centre of the troubles in thailand.... and they are both in the news everyday

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by Bkk. Post

"If the government can asses the situation well and know what issues will ignite conflict, it can stay longer in office,"


*

Amart operatives again trying to implant the notion that it is not elections which determine the length of the mandate.

Coming from undemocratic types as such, this glibness rolls easily off the tongue.

As much as the PTP and Ms. Y are coming under pressure from their electoral base which is geared up to intensify in the New Year, no-one is suggesting a termination of an electroral mandate through any other mechanism than an election, currently slated Four years from now.

This pressure concerns in particular, the Nitirat proposals and other well known UDD issues.

The electoral chances of the PTP in the next election four years from now, will be directly proportional to their progress on these issues.

And they know it!

Also the continued agenda of the Amart media to paint the UDD and Red Shirts as singulalrly focussed on Thaksin, is becoming more absurd by the day.

Thaksin's over-the-top demonstrations of subservience to someone, in both word and deed, are reducing his influence by leaps and bounds. His sister is not far behind if she doesn't "right the ship" in this regard.

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ You really don't have a clue about how governments operate do you Calgary (think, no confidence votes, censure debates, factions forming, coalitions breaking etc)...which further suggests you have no idea about democracy either, but then again, we all knew that, due to your proven stance on freedom of speech (as in you don't like it).

Governments are voted in by the people, to serve the people/country. If the decisions they make are not in the best interests of the electorate, then they may need to resign or call an early election, if opposition grows. That is how things work in the grown up world you appear to be blissfully unaware of. Forget all about the possibility of coup etc...I hope Pheu Thai manage to last 4 years, purely because this country needs some stability, but if all they are going to do is to work for the return and benefit of one man, well, perhaps opposition will grow....

----------


## StrontiumDog

Thai-ASEAN News Network

An Offer No One Can Refuse 

UPDATE : 13 December 2011                     

Noppadol Pattama, a legal adviser to former  Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, has claimed that the six conditions  for reconciliation, which he outlined during a recent interview with  Matichon Newspaper, are simply his own suggestions, not Thakin's. These  conditions touch on political party dissolution laws, Thaksin's  outstanding criminal charges, seized assets, the red and yellow shirts'  legal cases and the reinstatement of the 1997 Charter. 

These conditions or demands aren't new as they were heard even before  last year's red shirt unrest. Thaksin supporters have been condemning  the September 19, 2006 Coup and demanding that the1997 Charter be  brought back in order to nullify the 2007 Constitution drafted by the  coup leaders themselves. Back then, only the politicians, who stood to  lose political power, voiced their opinions on these conditions. Even  Payap Shinawatra, Thaksin's younger brother, had tried to initiate a  talk between the former premier and the junta. 

However, last year's red shirt rally forced the then-government to hold  talks with the Thaksin camp. However, the talks collapsed as seen on  live television. This incident must be retold to demonstrate the real  reason why these demands were bought up again despite the fact that  Thaksin's Pheu Thai Party is now in power. 

The public may have a difficult time trying to agree with Noppadol's  view that Thaksin's fight is not yet over. His demands could have been  taken as an assertion that the political conflict will end only once  everything has been reinstated to what it was before the coup. As a  result, demands which were forced on the Democrat-led government have  been brought up again during the Pheu Thai administration's tenure.  

Even though Noppadol claims that these conditions are simply his  personal opinion, he has also admitted that the his view is not far from  Thakin's. He did not outline a specific course as to how these demands  could be achieved, but it is known that the only possible answer is to  abandon the current charter and revert bring to the 1997 Constitution  and absolve Thaksin of all his crimes. These demands may merely be an  attempt to test the water, but it is clear what Thaksin is aiming for.  Is he trying to make an offer that no one can refuse? 

*Taken from Editorial Section, Kom Chad Leuk Newspaper, Page 4, December 13, 2011

Translated and Rewritten by Kongkrai Maksrivorawan*

----------


## Butterfly

> are simply his own suggestions, not Thakin's.


see below  :mid: 




> Thaksin's outstanding criminal charges, seized assets

----------


## SteveCM

*Pheu Thai to push for national reconciliation next year - The Nation*

 December 13, 2011  6:06 pm 

                 The Pheu Thai Party is expected to designate the  national reconciliation as a top legislative agenda next year, red-shirt  leader Kwanchai Praipana said Wednesday, arguing all parties involved  in the political turmoil would benefit.

      "The legislation on reconciliation will apply to all sides, unlike a  pardon or amnesty law," he said in reference to the criticism that  former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra appears to be the sole  beneficiary of pardon, if granted.

      Kwanchai said Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yoobamrung would spearhead  the reconciliation which would cover all parties and individuals, such  as Democrats Abhisit Vejjajiva and Suthep Thuagsuban for their  involvement in the 2010 bloodshed.

----------


## SteveCM

^ Got to say, I'm never quite clear why Kwanchai should be (or at least be seemingly regarded as) the oracle for what is or isn't due to happen.

----------


## DroversDog

> These 300 seats do seem to be a very important issue to PT, otherwise it could simply have taken the voters mandate and formed a government on their own.


A quick read of the constitution will see why there is need for more then just a majority of the MP's. It is one of the many stupid things in the constitution forced on the people by the junta.

----------


## noelbino

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> Appointed Senator Surachai Liangboonlertchai, a member of the now defunct junta-appointed constitution drafting assembly, defended the 2007 charter framed by the assembly.
> 
> 
> "Junta-appointed"    say no more
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Haven't you had your enema, yet?
You are still talking shit.

----------


## DroversDog

> Governments are voted in by the people, to serve the people/country. If the decisions they make are not in the best interests of the electorate, then they may need to resign or call an early election, if opposition grows.


Why? They do not need to resign or call an early election at all. They are perfectly in their rights to continue until the maximum electoral period if they still maintain a majority in parliament.  

The calls to resign could be coming from a vocal minority and it is not up to them to say what is in the best interests of the electorate.

----------


## DroversDog

> Originally Posted by LooseBowels
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> ...


Do you normally take an enema to shit through your mouth Noelbino? You must have a very interesting physiology. Are you in the same genus as Gerbil?  :Smile:

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> 
> Governments are voted in by the people, to serve the people/country. If the decisions they make are not in the best interests of the electorate, then they may need to resign or call an early election, if opposition grows.
> 
> 
> Why? They do not need to resign or call an early election at all. They are perfectly in their rights to continue until the maximum electoral period if they still maintain a majority in parliament.  
> 
> The calls to resign could be coming from a vocal minority and it is not up to them to say what is in the best interests of the electorate.


Wow, you managed to miss the point by that much?

----------


## hazz

> Originally Posted by hazz
> 
> 
> These 300 seats do seem to be a very important issue to PT, otherwise it could simply have taken the voters mandate and formed a government on their own. 
> 
> 
> A quick read of the constitution will see why there is need for more then just a majority of the MP's. It is one of the many stupid things in the constitution forced on the people by the junta.


A quick inspection does indicate the need for a 2/3 majority to declare war and section 151 dealing with royal assent issues. I assume you don't mean these, could you give some examples of what you mean.

----------


## longway

> That's just Thailand and Malaysia.
> 
> Bring in Cambodia (that 'corrupt shithole of a turd world country') and it gets real interesting. Consistently 20 odd places _above_ either since 2008.
> 
> Thailand is average at best (within ASEAN).
> 
> Press Freedom Index 2010 - Reporters Without Borders
> 
> 
> ...


Yes Thailand has gone downhill. What I am trying to say is that in 2001 thailand was in a much better place democracy wise than it was in 2005 and it's gotten worse since then.
Are the reds involved un war about democracy or is it a war about thaksin? I think the latter, that's why it's getting worse rather than better.

----------


## longway

> ^^^ Longway, you might (and others here certainly will) label this as naive, but I currently view this government's instincts as currently focused uppermost on survival. I see their position as fragile - though maybe not as fragile as they (seem to) see it. The government being (obviously enough) composed of Thai politicians, I have no illusions about the quality of its deep-seated democratic ideals and convictions as compared to its capacity to be self-serving. Not only that, this is largely the "B" if not the "C' team - and it'll be very revealing to see what improvement in political skills and confidence may emerge when the banned 111 become available in six months time..... assuming the government lasts that long.
> 
> For now, I see the "more Catholic than the pope" stance on LM as most likely a consequence of the forces being lined up against them, all too ready to brand any perceived "going soft" on LM as evidence of actually being against the institution itself - a charge that was a key feature of their opponents' election campaign. For recent and ongoing examples of it, look at what Dem deputy spokesperson Mallika is coming out with - with Abhisit not exactly rushing to silence her. Some PT figures (Anudit at MICT, for example) are quite possibly full-blooded "royalists" anyway - while the rest need only to view the danger of the mud sticking as enough reason to shore up/seal off a vulnerable flank. That approach would by itself explain the assiduous courting of the military - giving them enough of the material goodies and ideological reassurance they want so as to remove their main motives for intervening. Without the military, the Dems and PAD are not much more than noisy hecklers.
> 
> IMO, it's still very much a fledgeling government and a huge chunk of its first few months in office has been "swamped" (no pun intended) by the floods - a crisis that certainly hasn't boosted its standing. Even without that, there was _never_ going to be a "honeymoon" period - not with almost the entire Thai media and establishment arrayed against them. The most they can hope for in the next few months is a calming down and gradually growing acceptance that they are now the government and do have a sizable popular mandate behind them. But that mandate by itself is certainly not so large as to provide the guaranteed clout and hence the will to simply steamroller any and all measures through come what may.
> 
> In this scenario, jumping to take the approach that Giles Ungkaporn* and the more ideologically "pure" reds suggest they should seems tantamount to committing political suicide - something which I suspect would really please some who are advocating such a move. All this may well seem "negative" and not "constructive"..... and certainly it's anything but ideal - but it _is_ realpolitik.
> 
> * https://teakdoor.com/1959785-post270.html


The PT is fragile in a sense, so was the last government, the 2007 constitution was designed to make governments fragile.

However it's real fragility come from the fact it's mandate is based on deceit. That's why it's every which way on it's so called policies and was so incoherent in it's response to the floods. There is so much contradictory tugging going on it's doesn't know what to do next.

All they want to do is get thaksin back in a s quickly a possible and not bogged down in legal battles so he can get going in sorting out the mess.

----------


## Butterfly

> Yes Thailand has gone downhill. What I am trying to say is that in 2001 thailand was in a much better place democracy wise than it was in 2005 and it's gotten worse since then.
> Are the reds involved un war about democracy or is it a war about thaksin? I think the latter, that's why it's getting worse rather than better


you have to understand that most of our resident red supporters were never there in 2001 or before Thaksin came to power, so that's why they have no benchmark to measure him against

----------


## Butterfly

> However it's real fragility come from the fact it's mandate is based on deceit. That's why it's every which way on it's so called policies and was so incoherent in it's response to the floods. There is so much contradictory tugging going on it's doesn't know what to do next.


again, you nailed it perfectly.




> All they want to do is get thaksin back in a s quickly a possible and not bogged down in legal battles so he can get going in sorting out the mess.


yep, they need their dictator since they have no fucking clue how to run a government. If Thaksin was to die, they will probably all kill themselves as they have no clue what to do next.

PT is a religious cult, and the reds are their followers, may it be for political calculation or by conviction

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> Originally Posted by DroversDog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by hazz
> ...


Well for a start, the most obvious is the ability to disband an entire party for the action of one or more members of the party executive and the non-prosecution clauses against the coup makers. Remember, when the junta's constitution was put up to "referendum", the people were given a stark choice, either accept this one or we (the Army backed Junta) would impose any previous consitution of its choosing - and of course it wouldn't be the most popular one from 1997.

----------


## mao say dung

> What I am trying to say is that in 2001 thailand was in a much better place democracy wise than it was in 2005 and it's gotten worse since then.


I think what you are really saying is that so long as no political party bothered with such things as platforms including policy promises that would appeal to voters, relying instead on an apathetic and fundamentally apolitical electorate whose voting patterns were determined PURELY by patronage networks, phuak membership and vote-buying, and therefore could never present any kind of threat to the the people who held the real power in Thailand, Thai democracy was healthy.

I'm sure the army and the royalists and their variously aligned business interests would agree. 

But to those of us who've experienced democracy in other contexts, _Premocracy/Thai-style democracy_ is simply not democracy.

----------


## Calgary

*Thai-ASEAN News Network* 
*An Offer No One Can Refuse*  
*UPDATE : 13 December 2011* 
I enjoy countering the propaganda of this source.

I should thank them for providing me this sport. 
*




 Originally Posted by TANN

These conditions or demands aren't new as they were heard even before last year's red shirt unrest


*And were subsequently the issues deciding the election, won by those who advocated them.
*




 Originally Posted by TANN

However, last year's red shirt rally forced the then-government to hold talks with the Thaksin camp. However, the talks collapsed as seen on live television


*They didn't collapse.

It was mafia styled negotiation by one side, suggesting their offer stated pontifically, could not be refused.

The side favoured by this TANN outlet, arrogantly refused to "talk" and "negotiate" in good faith. Demonstrating their low opinion of those they were negotiating with. I am not talking the issue of sincerity, claimed by both sides. Both sides were sincere...period.

The November elections offer was accepted, subject to some modifications.

A very normal negotiating step.

But the arrogant ones preferred to put bullets through taxpayers hearts and heads, rather than engage in normal negotiation processes seeking common ground with respect to proposed modifications.

Preposterous!
*




 Originally Posted by TANN

The public may have a difficult time trying to agree with Noppadol's view that Thaksin's fight is not yet over


*These Amart/PADites keep confusing themselves with "the public". 

The public are those who demonstrated their perspective via their votes.

It is only the Amart/PADites who have difficulty agreeing.

Who cares. They lost!
*




 Originally Posted by TANN

, demands which were forced on the Democrat-led government have been brought up again during the Pheu Thai administration's tenure.


*This time with an electoral mandate.

Big difference.
*




 Originally Posted by TANN

Even though Noppadol claims that these conditions are simply his personal opinion, he has also admitted that the his view is not far from Thakin's


*Admitted?

Is there a problem with that?
*




 Originally Posted by TANN

the only possible answer is to abandon the current charter and revert bring to the 1997 Constitution and absolve Thaksin of all his crimes.


*Yes and yes*.*

Political vendatta's are not crimes, except to those who carry out the vendettas.
*




 Originally Posted by TANN

Is he trying to make an offer that no one can refuse?


*The Amart should know all about this, considering their November electoral offer made in such a fashion, followed up in true mafia style with bullets.

----------


## sabang

> most of our resident red supporters were never there in 2001


Ah yes, I get all starry eyed with nostalgia thinking of those halcyon days of the 90's.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

It certainly started off on the right foot- 1991/2 Prem's boys with guns were in charge
During the 1992 massacre they were sure dancing to the tune of those guns in Bangkok
How many governmennt collapsed in corruption scandals again?
How many elected governments completed their term?
I go all weak at the knees when I think of 'honest john' Banharn. Mr 5%- he sure could count.
And 1997 was a non-stop orgasm- baht down by 50%, SET by 75%.
The late 90's were fantastic- no problems getting a taxi, desperate whores everywhere

Yep, bring back the good ole' days.  :rofl:

----------


## Calgary

> Again - these kind of polls are bullshit. You really need to see and understand the way they ask the questions in Thai. I have - several times. They'd never stand up to international standards/scrutiny. They are biased from the outset. (edit to add that ABAC and DUSIT are not even recognised/accredited to international polling standards). It's all part of the mind-control freak game that's played here.


Or as I see it,* propaganda laundering.*

----------


## Calgary

> ^ Got to say, I'm never quite clear why Kwanchai should be (or at least be seemingly regarded as) the oracle for what is or isn't due to happen.


I asked local Red Shirts about this.

My question, _"How is Kwanchai regarded currently in the Red Shirt Democracy Movement_"?

The answer, "_He is the Red Shirt for 'somebody'_"

Additional comments were made, not subject to discussion here.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> *Thai-ASEAN News Network* 
> *An Offer No One Can Refuse*  
> *UPDATE : 13 December 2011* 
> I enjoy countering the propaganda of this source.
> 
> I should thank them for providing me this sport.


The source being...




> *Taken from Editorial Section, Kom Chad Leuk Newspaper, Page 4, December 13, 2011
> 
> Translated and Rewritten by Kongkrai Maksrivorawan*


You do know what *Kom Chad Leuk* is, right?

----------


## StrontiumDog

*http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/loca...reconciliation
*
*Amnesty  'key to reconciliation'*

*Pheu Thai determined to press ahead with bill * 
Published: 14/12/2011 at 12:00 AMNewspaper section: News
 The Pheu Thai Party-led government expects to  push the amnesty bill through parliament after New Year and has  reiterated that its passage  is crucial to achieving national  reconciliation.

 Pheu Thai is determined to push for an amnesty bill along with bills  to amend the Constitution and other laws such as the Defence Ministry  Administration Act when the House convenes its next session on Dec 21.

 The next parliamentary session will focus on deliberating and passing legislation drafts.

Pheu Thai spokesman Prompong Nopparit said the party's legal team  planned to discuss the legislative proposals at its meeting next week.  The team did not discuss the issue yesterday as it needed more time to  thoroughly study the details.

 
_Pirapan: Headway on amnesty bill_

 Pheu Thai MP for Yasothon Pirapan Palusuk, chief of the party's legal  team, said a backlog of many legislation drafts was awaiting scrutiny  by parliament.

 He said he was not sure if the party could go ahead with the amnesty bill move during the next parliamentary session.

 He said, however, that Pheu Thai has made a lot of headway on the  issue as the party's legal team was now preparing a draft bill and would  wait for the recommendation of a special parliamentary committee on  national reconciliation chaired by Matubhum Party leader Gen Sonthi  Boonyaratkalin.

 The committee has asked King Prajadhipok's Institute to draw up a road map for national reconciliation.

 He stressed that the government's proposed bills would be based on the committee's recommendations.

 Mr Pirapan said some pressure groups were also launching a signature  campaign to push for an amendment to Section 291 of the constitution to  pave the way for a charter-drafting assembly to be set up to amend the  charter.

 The move is in line with the government's policy, Mr Pirapan said.

 Mr Pirapan stressed that the amnesty law must come into force if national reconciliation is to be achieved.

 However, he said if the amnesty bill meets with strong resistance,  the content of the bill could be adjusted and renamed as the national  reconciliation bill, which should be more comprehensive than the amnesty  bill.

 "Without the amnesty bill, it is hard to achieve national  reconciliation," he said, adding that the recent political problems  originate from the Sept 19, 2006 coup that ousted the Thaksin Shinawatra  government.

 Mr Pirapan said that if and when the amnesty bill becomes law, it  would benefit all sides involved in the political conflict, not Thaksin  alone.

 The amnesty bill is aimed at providing blanket amnesty to political offenders since the 2006 coup.

 Those expected to benefit from it include red shirt and yellow shirt  protesters facing criminal charges for their anti-government activities,  politicians stripped of political rights by courts or standing trial  for politically motivated cases and military and police officers  responsible for the crackdowns on red shirt and yellow shirt protesters.

 Pheu Thai MP for Nakhon Phanom and government deputy chief whip  Phaijit Sriworakhan said all party members had agreed that it would be  best to wait for the recommendation of the Sonthi committee before the  party drew up legislation based on the recommendations.

 Kwanchai Praipana, a red shirt leader in Udon Thani, said Deputy  Prime Minister Chalerm Yubamrung had told him that Pheu Thai would go  ahead with national reconciliation efforts.

 The party will push for passage of the national reconciliation law  through parliament to benefit all sides including former deputy prime  minister Suthep Thaugsuban and former prime minister Abhisit Vejjajiva,  who have been accused of ordering a crackdown on the red shirt  protesters that resulted in 92 deaths and more than 1,000 injuries  during the political violence in April and May last year.

 Mr Kwanchai said the controversial amnesty bill would be adjusted and  changed to the national reconciliation bill to mollify its critics.

 He also said he was surprised that Thaksin still could not return  home to Thailand from exile in Dubai even though Pheu Thai was leading  the government with his younger sister Yingluck Shinawatra as prime  minister and he had a lot of supporters.

 Mr Kwanchai said it may be time for the red shirts in the Northeast  to take it upon themselves to bring Thaksin back to Thailand.

 Anti-Thaksin groups oppose any moves that would allow Thaksin's return.

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by DroversDog

Why? They do not need to resign or call an early election at all. They are perfectly in their rights to continue until the maximum electoral period if they still maintain a majority in parliament.


*

That is the strength of a _Parliamentary Constitutional Monarchy_ form of Government, as opposed to the US model.

Once a Party obtains a majority as the PTP enjoy currently, they are fee to act dictatorially of necessary, to advance the agenda they were voted into power with.

The electorate will render judgent four years from now.

This factoid is what is spearheading the current frustrations with this PTP Govt. by its' support base.

Their reluctance to use this electoral mandate will affect them negatively in four years, if they don't "_get their shit together, and soon_".

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by DroversDog

take an enema to shit through your mouth Noelbino?


*

*LOL*

Hell-of-a-line!

----------


## Bobcock

> 'honest john' Banharn.


*snigger* ....a man who's short stature provided no hindrance at all....after all, all his deals are done under the table

----------


## StrontiumDog

^^^^ So, Abhisit and Suthep are back to being included in the amnesty/reconciliation bill once more, after a period of going after them (which is still ongoing) for the murders of late year, and it is looking more and more likely that "amnesty" means that they will be let off for their part in the deaths of April/May 2010. 

Very much a deal being done. Negotiations appeared to have gone well, as I said last week, after floundering around the pardon debacle. The pressure appears to have worked. 

And what does the country gain from this "amnesty"? 

_Nothing._ 

Who gains? 

_Thaksin_

Who avoids responsibility for their crimes?
_
Abhsit and Suthep._

Oh and some yellow shirt guys might avoid any charges for their part in the airport occupation. 

Everyone's a winner, right? 

No, as the people of Thailand gain nothing from such an accommodation amongst the elite. Absolutely nothing. The cycle will just continue. 

And once again, this is all for Thaksin. 

It's amazing really, 92 people die, but as long as Thaksin can be allowed back and get his money back (a stipulation he made last week in his "peace" offering) all responsibility can be shelved. 

And what is up with Kwanchai? He really thinks he can mobilise the red shirts just to push for the return of Thaksin? 

Ah, yes, but as Sabang said...it is people such as I who have the "masturbatory obsession"  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## sabang

> And what does the country gain from this "amnesty"?


Rejection of the Military Coup, Judicial Coup's, and all they stand for.



> Who gains?


Democracy and her slave, the Voter.



> Who avoids responsibility for their crimes?


Sorry, I only have ten fingers.

To repeat, _ad infinitum_, the amnesty process does not only involve Thaksin.
And yes, secretly I would like the whole sleazy bunch jailed, but I realise it is not possible.
Thaksin is their ultimate 'get out of Jail free' card, they should really be kissing his feet.
Thaksin's convictions do not carry the Death penalty. Capital crimes do.

----------


## Calgary

> All they want to do is get thaksin back in a s quickly a possible


That is not all they want to do, by a long shot.

The Amart media would like to suggest that, as a way of inflaming their own kind.

But I am hearing many other issues of greater importance from local Red Shirts.

And when assessing the motivations of red Shirts, I prefer to listen to opinions of Red Shirts over that of the mantra of the Amart media.

The whole Thaksin thing which fixates the media so, has been plummeting amongst the Red Shirts anyway, given his excessive subservient behavior lately.

This may simply be a case of the PTP "_shoring up its' flank_" as SteveCM mentions in a Post above, but Red Shirts are hard-put to accept it as such.

----------


## sabang

Haven't you realised yet calgary? You are *all* Thaksin groupies from Isaan. Even when you aren't.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> And what does the country gain from this "amnesty"?
> 
> 
> Rejection of the Military Coup, Judicial Coup's, and all they stand for.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It doesn't just involve Thaksin...that is the entire point sabang!!!!! It is a deal. "You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours". That's all. A pact. One which allows murderers to walk....quite the deal. I wonder what will happen to the other outstanding court cases Thaksin has, such as the highly dubious dealings he undertook with the Burmese government (Thai court rules on Thaksin)

Do you really believe that this government wants to return to the 1997 constitution for the good of all? Do you really believe an amnesty is going to solve anything? 

I don't see how democracy and the voters gain from Thaksin returning. All this running around like headless chickens just for one man. Panels and groups aplenty. And all for Thaksin. One man. In 68 million. 

Can't this government just get on with running the country....it needs a lot of attention at the moment.

----------


## Calgary

> Haven't you realised yet calgary? You are *all* Thaksin groupies from Isaan. Even when you aren't.


Yeah, I know.

No huge Thaksin lovers around here.

But Thaksin groupies nevertheless.

Who knew!

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> All they want to do is get thaksin back in a s quickly a possible
> 
> 
> That is not all they want to do, by a long shot.
> 
> The Amart media would like to suggest that, as a way of inflaming their own kind.
> 
> ...


I hope you are correct Calgary. 

Giles wrote much the same the other day. 

But people such as Kwanchai create the image (intentional on his part for sure) that Thaksin is the ultimate goal.

----------


## sabang

> I don't see how democracy and the voters gain from Thaksin returning


They gain in spite of T returning. Who appoints and dismisses governments in a democracy, again? Who is a democratic government accountable to, again?



> All this running around like headless chickens just for one man.


Yes quite, but those headless chickens are mostly in your coop. Or is that coup?

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> I don't see how democracy and the voters gain from Thaksin returning
> 
> 
> They gain in spite of T returning. Who appoints and dismisses governments in a democracy, again? Who is a democratic government accountable to, again?


How do the people gain? The voters can vote, they did vote, they will vote. So how is all this being done for one man of benefit for the normal people? Making vague unrelated comments such as you have above, doesn't answer the point at all. Democracy (kind of) already exists here. It happened. The people voted. 

I want to know how democracy and the people of Thailand gain from Thaksin returning. You haven't explained that at all. 




> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> All this running around like headless chickens just for one man.
> 
> 
> Yes quite, but those headless chickens are mostly in your coop. Or is that coup?


No idea what you are referring to here. Again, this appears to be one of your sidetracking techniques being deployed. Accuse someone of something untrue, just because you have no other answer. Despite overwhelming evidence that I didn't support the coup and I don't like the yellow shirt element here, you still dig away at this....it makes you sound like Calgary!

----------


## sabang

> How do the people gain?


By emphatically reminding certain people where political power resides in a constitutional democracy. Those certain people with their bigotry and institutionalised criminality are only damaging to this nation- they corrupt Everything here, including Democracies most cherished and vital institutions. Their day is waning, because the People *finally* put their foot down. It has been a long time coming. They will be quite a long time going, too- but the stage is hopefully set. Democracy is not the plaything of a criminal cabal.
We need to see more of that in the West incidentally, even though our miscreants are not nearly as obscene.



> Accuse someone of something untrue


Silly me, you have never once referred to Thaksin, T, or tiny tim. Most certainly not once. Man thats some killer weed.


Just a general question, SD and others. Who really deserves to have their passport cancelled, and be permanently exiled from their native country? A corrupt politician (perhaps even all of them)- or the perpetrators of a Military Coup?

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by sabang

Just a general question, SD and others. Who really deserves to have their passport cancelled, and be permanently exiled from their native country? A corrupt politician (perhaps even all of them)- or the perpetrators of a Military Coup?


*

Perpetrators of a military coup!

And eliminate the constitution they fabricated to justify and protect themselves.

Not complicated!

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> How do the people gain?
> 
> 
> By emphatically reminding certain people where political power resides in a constitutional democracy. Those certain people with their bigotry and institutionalised criminality are only damaging to this nation- they corrupt Everything here, including Democracies most cherished and vital institutions. Their day is waning, because the People *finally* put their foot down. It has been a long time coming. They will be quite a long time going, too- but the stage is hopefully set. Democracy is not the plaything of a criminal cabal.
> We need to see more of that in the West incidentally, even though our miscreants are not nearly as obscene.


But this doesn't answer my question. How does Thaksin's return address any of this?

He is very much part of the elitist system here. This is a game being played out by the various factions here and nothing to do with the normal people of Thailand. 

You sound like a dreamer Sabang (nothing wrong with that). Someone who clings to some idealised version of the future. But I'd suggest you are imposing your western thinking on a system that is quite different from the ones you grew up with. 




> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> Accuse someone of something untrue
> 
> 
> Silly me, you have never once referred to Thaksin, T, or tiny tim. Most certainly not once. Man thats some killer weed.


Because I dislike Thaksin, doesn't make me a yellow-shirt/PAD supporter. People are more complicated than that Sabang. Again, you are sounding like Calgary. His categorising everything in to labelled boxes, and "if you aren't with us, you must be against us" style of thinking is testament to his rather limited intellectual dexterity. I have more respect for you than that Sabang. Time to leave the failed arguments behind perhaps. 




> Just a general question, SD and others. Who really deserves to have their passport cancelled, and be permanently exiled from their native country? A corrupt politician (perhaps even all of them)- or the perpetrators of a Military Coup?


All of the above. All should be dealt with in a court of law. However, I think they'd need to build many more jails. 

Thaksin should return and face the courts (he has several cases outstanding too). It is what normal people have to do. Why should he be any different?

----------


## sabang

> Thaksin should return and face the courts


Yes, he should. So should many others, who have never left- several for considerably more serious, Capital crimes. Will they? Well you know I don't think so. A 'deal' will be broked.

Justice must either be administered impartially, or amnesty negotiations (partial or otherwise) must similarly proceed impartially. I'm cool with either.

Like Democracy, Justice is not the plaything of a criminal cabal, to be used at their discretion, but overlooked at will. Neither is a criminal conviction emanating from an illegal military Junta appointed court valid.

Thats the state of play as it stands. I'm cool with it proceeding in either impartial direction- but you know as well as me (hopefully) which way it will actually go. TIT.

The Coup's various, plus their backers and apologists, have been firmly rejected by the majority of the population of Thailand. That is the most important thing here.

----------


## BKKBanger

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> Thaksin should return and face the courts
> 
> 
> Yes, he should.  
> 
> The Coup's various, plus their backers and apologists, have been firmly rejected by the majority of the population of Thailand. That is the most important thing here.


With all respect, the majority of the population matter not one jot, they can be purchased or just ignored.

----------


## DroversDog

> Originally Posted by DroversDog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by hazz
> ...





> Section 173: A minister has the right to attend and give statements of fact or opinion at a sitting of the House *but has no right to vote.* In the case where the House of Representatives or the Senate has passed a resolution requiring ministers to attend a sitting for any matter, they shall attend the sitting. The provisions of Section 125 shall apply mutatis mutandis.


This is why some party list MP's give up their MP status to let the next of their part list members to become an MP. They real unfortunate part of this is it encourages governing parties to have non-elected ministers.

----------


## DroversDog

> Who gains? 
> 
> _Thaksin_


SD the one track simpleton strikes again  :rofl:

----------


## sabang

> With all respect, the majority of the population matter not one jot


I rather think the Red shirts threw a spanner in those works.
Call me a cynic, but I also think that most governments would just love to be able to ignore the majority of their people. 
That is indeed why we have the Vote.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> 
> Who gains? 
> 
> _Thaksin_
> 
> 
> SD the one track simpleton strikes again


Says Mr Photoshop 'expert'.  :rofl: 

You really don't have a clue do you DD. As proven by your analysis of photos....Thailand must be a world of wonder to you.

----------


## DroversDog

> Thaksin should return and face the courts (he has several cases outstanding too)


Yes after the coup leaders and the corrupt judiciary, Sonthi etc. There would be a need for international judges to adjudicate the deeds/miss-deeds of Thaksin as the Thai ones have only shown how not to make a fair and impartial decision based on Thai law.

----------


## DroversDog

> Originally Posted by DroversDog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> ...


So how did your trip to the Maldives go? Did Mark give you any browny points for trying to protecting his arse on teak door? Or did you violate it?

Are you wearing your red shirt today?

----------


## StrontiumDog

TAN_Network   TAN News Network                                                   

_Deputy PM Chalerm vows to push forth with amnesty bill; says he won't protect mastermind in murder of Democrat vote canvasser_

----------


## sabang

> Deputy PM Chalerm vows to push forth with amnesty bill; says he won't protect mastermind in murder of Democrat vote canvasser


Why TAN, you have excelled yourself yet again. what does one have to do with the other?

_"The Dalai Lama vows to dally with a Llama; says he won't protect Idi Amin."_

----------


## StrontiumDog

Wont come as a surprise to anyone I'm sure...

veen_NT   veena T.                                                       

_RT @tulsathit: An ASTV article says PAD will take to streets as soon as Yingluck govt introduces amnesty bill that would cover Thaksin._

----------


## sabang

Five angry boy scouts?

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> What I am trying to say is that in 2001 thailand was in a much better place democracy wise than it was in 2005 and it's gotten worse since then.
> 
> 
> I think what you are really saying is that so long as no political party bothered with such things as platforms including policy promises that would appeal to voters, relying instead on an apathetic and fundamentally apolitical electorate whose voting patterns were determined PURELY by patronage networks, phuak membership and vote-buying, and therefore could never present any kind of threat to the the people who held the real power in Thailand, Thai democracy was healthy.
> 
> I'm sure the army and the royalists and their variously aligned business interests would agree. 
> 
> But to those of us who've experienced democracy in other contexts, _Premocracy/Thai-style democracy_ is simply not democracy.


No what I am saying is that the my ammart is better than your ammart comebacks are a load of nonsense.

Thaksin style populism is as undemocratic as the previous style. My mob is bigger than your mob , so kiss my arse, is not democracy.

If you think thaksin is should be back as more people support him, thats fine, but don't call what is happening a fight for democracy. It's just another money driven alliance following it's own selfish interests.

The reds are not tackling any of the root problems as they have gorged themselves stupid on Thaksin's Coin.

----------


## hazz

> Originally Posted by hazz
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by DroversDog
> ...


With you talking about stupid stuff forced on the people by the junta, i thought you might have something new. SteveCM had mentioned this already, although he had not quoted the bible passage and it has been a feature of thai parliamentary democracy since 1997 at the latest.

There is an effective workaround, which is as you say to have ministers who are not MP's.  

so why 300, not 301, 299,290 what ever?

I get suspicious when people talk about controlling 2/3 or 3/5 of anything, because its usually because they want to make use of super majority rules. 

Does anyone know if the government has the full quota of 35 ministers and how many of them are not MPs?

----------


## Mid

> My mob is bigger than your mob , so kiss my arse, is not democracy.


actually ................

----------


## sabang

> My mob is bigger than your mob , so kiss my arse, is not democracy.


But respect my Vote is.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> All they want to do is get thaksin back in a s quickly a possible
> 
> 
> That is not all they want to do, by a long shot.
> 
> The Amart media would like to suggest that, as a way of inflaming their own kind.
> 
> ...


You realize I was talking about the PT here right? There is one other thing they are Intersted in too, and that's staying power so they can steal as much money as possible.

If you analyze their actions with these two motives they make perfect sense, otherwise the excuses are so thin it would make an Ethiopian famine victim cringe and a super model envious.

----------


## mao say dung

> Thaksin style populism


Is just a restatement of "policies that appealed to voters". 

I don't for a minute believe that Thaksin is any sort of democrat. Regardless, and probably in spite of himself, his route to power through the TRT has inadvertently created a politicized electorate such as has never existed before in Thailand. 

Winning a plurality or a majority in election after election does not equate to "my mob is bigger than your mob" unless you mean "more people vote for me than for you", which is, in fact, a democratic principle.

It remains to be seen how effectively that electorate can be beaten back into a state of apathy. 

If the Thaksin crew align themselves effectively with the military crew (Dems and royalists etc...) and create a situation where voters cannot really have even the minor say in choice of governments that democracies around the world, and for the moment Thailand, usually allows them, then we'll be back to what you so naively refer to as "a better place democracy wise".

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
>  My mob is bigger than your mob , so kiss my arse, is not democracy.
> 
> 
> But respect my Vote is.


When thaksin was playing unconstitutional power games, was he respecting the people who voted for him?

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> Thaksin style populism
> 
> 
> Is just a restatement of "policies that appealed to voters". 
> 
> I don't for a minute believe that Thaksin is any sort of democrat. Regardless, and probably in spite of himself, his route to power through the TRT has inadvertently created a politicized electorate such as has never existed before in Thailand. 
> 
> ...



So you are saying the last 6 years have been a complete waste of time? Well welcome to the club.

If thaksin had just stuck too making policies attractive to voters I would have loved him too. It's what he does outside that, that is the problem, his opponentsareto blame as much as him, it's a power struggle by selfish people.

Is the solution still to prance around chanting manufactured marketing gimmicks or finally get around to having some ideas to make things better?

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> My mob is bigger than your mob , so kiss my arse, is not democracy.
> 
> 
> actually ................


Lol  :tieme: 
 :kma:

----------


## mao say dung

^I wonder when the day will come when one of you THAKSIN IS BAD folks will start paying attention to something other than your hatred for the guy and contempt for his followers.

You said Thailand was more democratic before Thaksin and that is obviously nonsense. Premocracy and democracy are not even close to the same thing. So move on to another point, and another and another, because if you just keep spewing the spew, the point by point dismantling of your "arguments" will just get lost in the spray. And we wind up back at THAKSIN IS BAD.

Which absolutely no one disputes.

If the Thais want him or his proxies in power it is their democratic right to vote him in, as they keep doing. If the Reds who are motivated by a desire for a more democratic country feel that he or his proxies are acting in contempt of democratic procedure, it is up to them to find ways to protest and/or get them out of power. 

If they fail, it is still not quite back to your square one of Premocracy because that movement did not exist then. 

One small step for a phrai...

----------


## DroversDog

> I get suspicious when people talk about controlling 2/3 or 3/5 of anything, because its usually because they want to make use of super majority rules. 
> 
> Does anyone know if the government has the full quota of 35 ministers and how many of them are not MPs?


There is nothing wrong with governments using their majority. That's how they were voted in. You also need to consider the senate and other branches of government before you can talk about a super majority.

As for the full quota, I only know of 1 PT party list MP that resigned to become a minister and a small number of appointed ministers. Most ministers are still MP's.

----------


## longway

> ^I wonder when the day will come when one of you THAKSIN IS BAD folks will start paying attention to something other than your hatred for the guy and contempt for his followers.
> 
> You said Thailand was more democratic before Thaksin and that is obviously nonsense. Premocracy and democracy are not even close to the same thing. So move on to another point, and another and another, because if you just keep spewing the spew, the point by point dismantling of your "arguments" will just get lost in the spray. And we wind up back at THAKSIN IS BAD.
> 
> Which absolutely no one disputes.
> 
> If the Thais want him or his proxies in power it is their democratic right to vote him in, as they keep doing. If the Reds who are motivated by a desire for a more democratic country feel that he or his proxies are acting in contempt of democratic procedure, it is up to them to find ways to protest and/or get them out of power. 
> 
> If they fail, it is still not quite back to your square one of Premocracy because that movement did not exist then. 
> ...


Just giving the 2001 situation a label does not dismantle anything I said or win the argument.

Nor will you get democracy by chanting a word that's been dreamt up for you.

Btw I am glad you have finally come around to the thaksin is bad viewpoint.  :Smile: 

I think it still remains to be proven whether the reds will live up to their promise.

----------


## mao say dung

Agreed.

So why don't you present something of an argument for your assertion that the days of Premocracy, not my coinage, which has often been written about in terms of its faux democratic facade, were days when Thailand was a "better place democracy wise"?

----------


## longway

No coups since 1991.

All political change through elections.

Political upheavals were contained swiftly.

The 1997 baht collapse, as painful as it was did not lead to military intervention. In fact the upheaval allowed the establishment of the more democratic 1997 constitution.

A government steered he country through the rough passage, made arguably worse by the IMF conditions, however thailand still largely honoured their debts and international obligations. They were very unpopular but it did not end making Thailand less democratic.

A far more free press than we see today.

2001 saw a promising PM elected under a constitution that made the civilian elected government the most powerful political force in Thailand.

After that it went to rat shit by 2006.

If you think it's was a faux democracy, I agree with you, but how do we judge it? iMO you judge it by looking at the state of Thailand's peers. I think it stood out rather well. No reds around either.

----------


## Rocksteady

> If thaksin had just stuck too making policies attractive to voters I would have loved him too. It's what he does outside that, that is the problem, his opponents are to blame as much as him, it's a power struggle by selfish people.  Is the solution still to prance around chanting manufactured marketing gimmicks or finally get around to having some ideas to make things better?


Agreed, and this is largely because of the ying and yang way the world works.  The orient is largely run along Confucian thoughts based on the 'greater good' of the group rather than individuality, as demonstrated through western democratic principles.

thaksin saw a gap in the market and went for the vote of the working classes which had up until then been largely ignored by those who ran the country.  Had he done this for the right reasons - to better the lot of the farmers and low paid factory workers and to build their future _without_ building his own personal cult/empire (which included spilling a lot of Thai blood) he would have been a great asset.

Shame this wasn't on his agenda!

----------


## longway

^ 6 years of prancing around calling themselves dtaa sawang. Where are they when it really matters? Moo ham, no nothing. Suphansa who got attacked by a drunken policeman, not a whimper. Uncle SMS, 50 lousy red shirts. Useless fuckers.

Thaksin's lapdogs nothing more.

----------


## mao say dung

> No coups since 1991.


With General Prem sitting in the driver's seat (which seat, in case you've forgotten, was at the head of the Privy Council), organizing the army hierarchy to spec, brokering the political deals that determined the make-up of the administrations that were concocted from elected representatives, and gathering an impressive number of seats on the boards of various public and private enterprises, why would there be a coup? It's true that ol' Sarit couped himself out of office in order to step up into full-on dictatorship, but that was a while back.




> Political upheavals were contained swiftly.


Like in China, that paragon of democracy, you mean?




> In fact the upheaval allowed the establishment of the more democratic 1997 constitution.


The '97 Constitution was an achievement of those years, but the impetus came from protests and criticism mainly from royalist elements in Thai society and it was a flawed document from the beginning because it was a melange of pro- and anti-democratic provisions, thus reflecting the make-up of the drafting committee. The independent bodies it established as checks on the power of any one element of the government were populated in a highly politicized attempt to make sure that they worked well, but only in regards to certain people who might get into power.

Thaksin's campaign to undermine those checks and balances was directed as much against their politically biased make-ups  as against their inconvenient existence as blocks to his power drive.




> A far more free press than we see today.


Yes. But the press under Thaksin was also moderately freer than we see today. That said, the press was perceived as free because of its willingness to publicize and pursue corruption in government; they were not "free" to go after the role played by either the military or the royalist elites in jerry-rigging those governments. 

Conveniently, going after corruption and constantly setting up a hue and cry against evil politicians as said "free press" indeed did was and is a perfect fit with the elite anti-democratic campaign to ensure that Thais as a nation do not put their faith in electoral democracy. Politicians, after all, ARE BAD.

In short, the chaos of the past 6  years represents an improvement "democracy wise" over the peace and order of the prison-yard of the period following Black May.

----------


## mao say dung

> Had he done this for the right reasons - to better the lot of the farmers and low paid factory workers and to build their future without building his own personal cult/empire (which included spilling a lot of Thai blood) he would have been a great asset.  Shame this wasn't on his agenda!


So, Rock... I have to ask: are you saying Thaksin was BAD? 

Because if so, a lot of us are going to have to reorder our whole sense of reality! 

Just the kind of startlingly fresh insight that only comes to those who really, really _get_ Thailand.

 :deadhorsebig:

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Chalerm : No backing down on Thaksin Amnesty - The Nation
*
*Chalerm : No backing down on Thaksin Amnesty*

         The Nation December 15, 2011  1:00 am 
 

*The pardon for fugitive former prime minister  Thaksin Shinawatra has not been put on the backburner and the government  is just biding its time until the right occasion comes along, Deputy  Prime Minister Chalerm Yoobamrung said yesterday.*

"The Pheu Thai Party has a clear policy on the amnesty issue," he said.

The draft amnesty law was ready and he would not back down from bringing Thaksin home, he said.

The amnesty law would be pushed through at an opportune time, he said, declining to elaborate on his plans.

The pardon for Thaksin would be part of broader legislation for reconciliation, he said.

Thida Thawornseth, chairwoman of the red-shirt movement, said she  expects the political struggle to heat up because the red shirts would  push for a charter amendment after the House reconvenes on December 21.

"The red shirts will strive to cancel the 2007 Constitution and all unjust laws sponsored by the 2006 coup," she said.

The ultimate goal was to promulgate a charter designed to end power seizures in any form, she said.

She said she wanted to see the rule of law prevail in Thailand where  the judicial process could function without any interference from the  "ammat" regime, a phrase referring to the extra-constitutional power.

The 73 red shirts held in remand should be released on bail pending  trial or accommodated in a special detention facility, she said.

The work of the Truth for Reconciliation Commission of Thailand should  be supported although the TRCT could be more proactive in uncovering  factual evidence on last year's political unrest, she said.

The TRCT has drawn the wrong conclusion by attributing the chaos to the  Constitution Court verdict favouring Thaksin in his asset concealment  case, she said.

"The root case for turmoil is not Thaksin but the refusal of the ammat regime to hand over power to the people," she said.

That refusal is the reason why the transition from absolute monarchy to democracy has been rocky, she said.

The red-shirt movement will continue to work for the overhaul of the  political system regardless of the stance of the Pheu Thai Party, she  said, insisting the movement and the party are two separate entities.

The movement is scheduled to hold a mass rally on Saturday in Sakon Nakhon.

Pheu Thai MP Weng Tojirakarn said the red-shirt MPs from Pheu Thai  would spearhead the drive to include the charter rewrite on the House  agenda.

----------


## sabang

This country should be in the guinness book of records, for the most repeated inane headlines.

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ I was rather impressed at the desperate tone Thida is adopting.....and the bending of the truth in the process.

Repeating the same lines over and over...and sounding more and more hollow. 

Got to keep the masses in line...I wonder how long the act can be maintained.

Good to see Chalerm, Deputy Prime Minister, really making the country his top priority  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## LooseBowels

> Can't this government just get on with running the country....it needs a lot of attention at the moment.


Get the invisible hand off the contols then

----------


## LooseBowels

> "The root case for turmoil is not Thaksin but the refusal of the ammat regime to hand over power to the people," she said.


The money shot

You can't argue with that

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> "The root case for turmoil is not Thaksin but the refusal of the ammat regime to hand over power to the people," she said.
> 
> 
> The money shot
> 
> You can't argue with that


Actually, you can.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> No coups since 1991.
> 
> 
> With General Prem sitting in the driver's seat (which seat, in case you've forgotten, was at the head of the Privy Council), organizing the army hierarchy to spec, brokering the political deals that determined the make-up of the administrations that were concocted from elected representatives, and gathering an impressive number of seats on the boards of various public and private enterprises, why would there be a coup? It's true that ol' Sarit couped himself out of office in order to step up into full-on dictatorship, but that was a while back.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I won't disagree with most of what you said. However...

Do the philipinos, Indonesians, cambodians, Brits, yanks put just about any name here have faith in their politicians? Thai lack of faith in their politicians is based on reality.

However 90% still believe in democracy as they know there is nothing better. The line you trot out has not ever taken root.

The army uses this pretext to come out with circular logic to justify coups, the PAD floated a balloon with a variation of this theme  after which they sunk into oblivion, only a small minority buy into it.

Blaming a certain institution for the lack of democracy in Thai society is a spin,  its you who have bought into propoganda if you think just attacking one particular section Of the elite in this country will help anything.

I did not say that prem wanted the 1997 constitution, I am saying that it's existence proves that the section of the so called ammart that you guys obsess on so much does not call all the shots and has not for a long time.

Whatever spin you want to give about the prison yard, it was still leagues better than almost any other SE Asian country.

If the reds want democracy, they need to attack the real issues, not prance around following some bs propaganda concocted with an agenda in mind.

What thaksin and the reds do is day by day make this country less democratic as they are either have no interest in democracy, bought or stupid. Which probably why even though 90% of the country believe in democracy only a minority identify with the reds.

It's got nothing to do with what the nation says, it's an opinion that is based on what I read here from red supporters.

----------


## sabang

> Blaming a certain institution for the lack of democracy in Thai society is a spin


Whilst I agree with you here, I think few in Thailand think this way.

Thailand has Democratic institutions in place, although of course the military 'constitution' remains illegitimate. It has been a titular democracy since the 1930's- but regularly overthrown, then 're-appointed' again in the preferred mold. That model seems to have failed this time, thank goodness- but the real job is not finished, more like just beginning.

The reason Democratic institutions here do not work as they should comes down to an ingrained Culture of Impunity amongst a self serving robber class. They basically control the Institutions, or if required the means to overthrow them. Parvenu's must either assimilate their values (and 'commission structure'), or be turfed out.

----------


## SteveCM

> I think it worth noting how Malaysia without LM laws, always ranks badly, while Thailand has done much better in the past.


As an update/rider to what I posted at https://teakdoor.com/1959991-post2866.html, see also this: A solemn Christmas for Malaysian Christians | Asian Correspondent

----------


## Pol the Pot

> I think it worth noting how Malaysia without LM laws, always ranks badly, while Thailand has done much better in the past.


I wonder what makes you say that.

1. Malaysia has the ISA instead of LM laws.
2. It's only in recent years (from what I see), that they've overtaken Thailand in the Reporters without Borders annual reports.
3. In the Transparency International reports on corruption they're consistently ahead of Thailand, with Thailand oftentimes not even submitting reports.

----------


## Pol the Pot

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> I think it worth noting how Malaysia without LM laws, always ranks badly, while Thailand has done much better in the past.
> 
> 
> I wonder what makes you say that.
> 
> 1. Malaysia has the ISA instead of LM laws.
> 2. It's only in recent years (from what I see), that they've overtaken Thailand in the Reporters without Borders annual reports.
> 3. In the Transparency International reports on corruption they're consistently ahead of Thailand, with Thailand oftentimes not even submitting reports.


Comparing Thailand with Malaysia is just too optimistic.

Better to compare it with the Philippines, their histories are much more similar. Here, Thailand fares better.

----------


## Thaihome

> ....
> Comparing Thailand with Malaysia is just too optimistic.
> 
> ....


I agree, *Mahathir* did a much better job of setting up a single party government that pretends to be democratic. Race based populism tends to work much better than class based populism.
 :mid: 
TH

----------


## sabang

Must admit, Mahathir gained some brownie points with me when he told the IMF/ west to get stuffed during the financial crisis, and gave financial speculators a caning. Thailand didn't, and paid the price.

Apart from that, a bit of a twat though.

----------


## Thaihome

> Must admit, Mahathir gained some brownie points with me when he told the IMF/ west to get stuffed during the financial crisis, and gave financial speculators a caning. Thailand didn't, and paid the price.
> 
> Apart from that, a bit of a twat though.


 
Having all that oil and pet national oil company makes it easy to tell the IMF to get lost.   

But I do agree what he did was showed that in Malaysia's case there was another way, Thailand, like S. Korea,  didn't really have that option.
TH

----------


## Pol the Pot

In spite of that corruption is lower than in Thailand, people's perception of corruption is lower than in Thailand, the country is more stable, there haven't been any foreign adventures, minorities are better integrated.

It's a trade- off, I guess  :Smile: 

Oh, standard of living is also higher on average than Thailand and travelling, for Malaysians, is much easier.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Bangkok Post : Dems: Thaksin already issued Thai passport
*
*Dems: Thaksin already issued Thai passport*
Published: 15/12/2011 at 03:43 PMOnline news:
 The Foreign Ministry issued a new Thai passport  to fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra on Oct 31, Democrat  Party spokesman Chavanond Intarakomalyasut claimed on Thursday.

 
_Democrat Party spokesman Chavanond Intarakomalyasut_

 Mr Chavanond said he had received an email message from a Foreign  Ministry official who wrote under the pseudonym  ''Buakaew Saiphanmai''  (new blood of the ministry). The message said the ministry had issued a  passport to Thaksin  on Oct 31.

 He quoted the email as saying that a group of ministry officials and  politicians had entered the Department of Consular Affairs, on Chaeng  Wattana Road,  on Oct 31, which was shut that day because of a  declared holiday due to the flooding.

 Those officials and politicians had unlocked the department's  computerised system to prepare a passport for someone. The email sender  had said the group had removed the name of the recipient from the  blacklist to pave way for the issuing of a passport.

 Mr Chavanond, who held the position of secretary to the foreign  minister during the Democrat-led government, said he had checked the  itinerary of Foreign Minister Surapong Tovichakchaikul from Nov 22 to 25  -- as suggested by the email sender -- and found that the minister  had gone to Dubai, where Thaksin now lives since being toppled by a  military coup in 2006.

 The new Thai passport had already been handed to Thaksin, according to the opposition spokesman.

 
_Foreign Minister Surapong Tovichakchaikul_

 He said he wanted Mr Surapong to answer the charge a passport  had been issued for Thaksin and whether the ousted prime minister  was still on the ministry's blacklist.

 Evidence must be shown if the passport was not issued to Thaksin, said Mr Chavanond.

 If Mr Surapong did issue the passport, he could be deemed in breach  of the law and must face legal action,  the Democrat spokesman said.

 Earlier, Mr Surapong had said it was the foreign minister's right to  issue or revoke passports and he planned to reissue a Thai passport to  Thaksin  as a "New Year gift"', after the Democrat-led government  revoked it two years ago.

 Mr Chavanond demanded the newly appointed foreign permanent secretary launch an inquiry into the matter.

----------


## crippen

::spin::  ::spin::  ::spin::  ::spin::  ::spin::

----------


## sabang

Well, big deal. But if it's true, the government should confirm it.

----------


## Calgary

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> Can't this government just get on with running the country....it needs a lot of attention at the moment.
> 
> 
> Get the invisible hand off the contols then


Absolutely correct and gets at the heart of the matter!

Once that is done, watch the progress.

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by Calgary

Bangkok Post : Dems: Thaksin already issued Thai passport


*

When will Amart media-Thaksin fatigue set in with normal people.

This Amart media day after day after day fixation and paranoia  on Thaksin expressed through their media borders on the psychotic.

But many people read this paranoia and think it is normal.

I don't happen to be one of them.

----------


## Calgary

_




 Originally Posted by The Nation

Thida Thawornseth, chairwoman of the red-shirt movement, said she expects the political struggle to heat up because the red shirts would push for a charter amendment after the House reconvenes on December 21. "The red shirts will strive to cancel the 2007 Constitution and all unjust laws sponsored by the 2006 coup," she said.


_

This Thida statement reflects what I have been saying about the Nitirat proposals being considered significant, and will not be swept under the rug as attempted by the Amart.

Perhaps with slight excageration (_damn, I wish this thing had a spell check_) it could be said that the way the PTP handles the Nitirat proposals will be a litmus test for them.

----------


## noelbino

> Originally Posted by LooseBowels
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> ...


Actually you can argue with anything he says.
The problem the problem is he has no sense of reality.

----------


## sabang

> When will Amart media-Thaksin fatigue set in with normal people.


Normal people hardly even read the 'amart media' in Thailand. It's aimed at a specific, besotted minority.
Thai Rath seems to be the least abysmal of an absolutely disgraceful bunch of rags.

----------


## Gerbil

> Thai Rath seems to be the least abysmal of an absolutely disgraceful bunch of rags.


.... the most well known for switching it's allegiance depending on which way the owner perceives the political winds to be blowing (although in fairness she is a bit better in that regard than her father was).

----------


## StrontiumDog

Thai-ASEAN News Network

  

PM Affirms Amnesty Law's Fate Rests with Parliament 

UPDATE : 15 December 2011                     *

The prime minister insists the draft amnesty bill must be reviewed by Parliament regardless of whether it is renamed.

Speaking during her visit to the navy's headquarters, Prime Minister  Yingluck Shinawatra said enactment of the the amnesty law or its renamed  version, the reconciliation law, must be proceeded by Parliament given  its detail must be debated by lawmakers of both chambers. 
*

Yingluck stated the remark by Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yoobumrung  over his continuous push for the amnesty law was merely a personal  viewpoint and she cannot shape any party's move , but insisted the issue  must pass the parliamentary process 

The prime minister suggested the name of the law is not as important as  its contribution to the restoration of the national unity and peace. 

Asked about her stance over the amnesty law allegedly designed to  benefit her fugitive brother Thaksin, the prime minister maintained she  wants to see the reconciliation among the people and the indiscriminate  use of law. 

Meanwhile, Chalerm insisted the proposed renaming of the draft bill from  the amnesty law to the reconciliation law is his own idea and it has  nothing to do with the government. 

Democrat's senior MP for Surat Thani Province Suthep Thaugsuban  described Chalerm's proposal a deception to the general public, adding  the latter should speak out frankly what his real motive behind the  campaign is. 

Suthep advised the government to refrain from moving ahead with issues  prone to instigate the public discontent given it should serve the  people rather than  secure its popularity. 

The opposition MP noted Chalerm's current moves aimed to score points  for the fugitive de facto leader of his governing Pheu Thai Party, but  they could backfire on the government.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Passport already issued to Thaksin : Democrat - The Nation
*
*Passport already issued to Thaksin : Democrat*

         Pimnara Pradabwit
The Nation December 16, 2011  1:00 am 
 

*Democrat spokesman Chavanond Intarakomalyasut said  yesterday he had received a letter claiming that former PM Thaksin  Shinawatra had already been issued a Thai passport on the quiet.*

Chavanond, a former secretary to the foreign minister under the  previous government, showed the original and provided copies of the  letter signed by a "New Breed of Foreign Ministry Official" to the media  yesterday. 

The letter claimed that a ministry computer was unlocked by an official  who wanted to please "big boss", to issue the passport on October 31,  at a time when the Consular Affairs Department's office in Chaeng  Wattana was closed due to flooding. 

According to the letter, a passport was issued and the name of the person in the passport was removed from the black list. 

The chief of the passport division at the Consular Affairs Department  is authorised to issue passports to eligible persons who are required to  apply in person and pay the fee to the Foreign Ministry. The  application form, serial number of the passport and the number on the  fee receipt must be matched. 

Chavanond said that the information was confirmed as he had also  learned from his sources at the ministry that a passport had been issued  and already delivered to Thaksin. It might have been done during  Foreign Minister Surapong Towichuk-chaikul's trip to Dubai from November  22-25, he said.

Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva yesterday called on the foreign  minister to prove that Thaksin has not been issued a passport and that  his name has not been taken off the black list. 

Foreign Ministry spokesman Thani Thongpakdi said he had not received  any information from the department on the issuance of a passport to  Thaksin. Foreign Minister Surapong would inform the public directly, the  spokesman said.

Contacted by reporters seeking clarification, Surapong said he was busy  in a meeting with Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra and would give an  interview on the issue later.

----------


## hazz

> Originally Posted by long way
> 
> A far more free press than we see today.
> 
> 
> Yes. But the press under Thaksin was also moderately freer than we see today. That said, the press was perceived as free because of its willingness to publicize and pursue corruption in government; they were not "free" to go after the role played by either the military or the royalist elites in jerry-rigging those governments.


As part of some reading about the official information act, I came across this artical written in  2002 discussing the act in particular, investigative journalism and the media in thailand 1998-2002. I would recommend reading it if you are going to make comparisons between then and now regards press freedom.

Thailands Incomplete Information Revolution

----------


## mao say dung

^Read it, thanks. 

So what do you take away from that article that might have modified my claim, if anything?

----------


## Butterfly

> Must admit, Mahathir gained some brownie points with me when he told the IMF/ west to get stuffed during the financial crisis, and gave financial speculators a caning. Thailand didn't, and paid the price.


you are mad,

Mahathir little trick cost dearly Malaysia for years, capital inflows went out the window at a time the country needed it the most. It was a spectacular political move and a brave one, but it terms of economic costs, it actually delayed significantly their recovery

In the other hand, Thailand flexibility proved to be successful in the long run, and recovered faster than Malaysia, see the J curve effect.

Thailand is simply lacking proper public funds for infrastructure investment to grow faster and that is the only thing that is stopping them.

----------


## sabang

^ Nonsense. Malaysia is doing fine (well, economically). Nasty Dr Mahathir give your little speculator bottie a hiding, did he? Serves ya right.  :Smile: 
Oh how I laughed at the time, the way these speculators squealed like stuck pigs when it was stuck back to them for a change. big babies.

----------


## Butterfly

> Malaysia is doing fine (well, economically).


they should be doing better, that's exactly my point.




> Mahathir give your little speculator bottie a hiding, did he? Serves ya right.


don't care, I am NOT on the Malaysian Exchange  :Smile: 

like I said, it was a brave political move, but they made the situation much worse eventually.

----------


## Rural Surin

> Originally Posted by Calgary
> 
> When will Amart media-Thaksin fatigue set in with normal people.
> 
> 
> Normal people hardly even read the 'amart media' in Thailand. It's aimed at a specific, besotted minority.
> Thai Rath seems to be the least abysmal of an absolutely disgraceful bunch of rags.


Normal people don't read current event publications [print].
Their Amart media exposure comes through in the form of the Thai TV news and public affairs program. You'll never find such alternative views through electronic media - so, it doesn't really what form of info that one absorbs. Pretty much one and the same controlled by the same source.

----------


## Thaihome

> ^ Nonsense. Malaysia is doing fine (well, economically). Nasty Dr Mahathir give your little speculator bottie a hiding, did he? Serves ya right. 
> Oh how I laughed at the time, the way these speculators squealed like stuck pigs when it was stuck back to them for a change. big babies.


 
People will be debating the right or wrong of Malaysias capital controls and FX peg forever. 

 Personally I have always thought Mahathirs choice was purely political as if he had followed the IMF rules many of the Malaysian conglomerates would have failed (in the TPI model) and as those were basically UMNO partners in the government, it is likely UMNO would have lost control of the government very quickly.

I also think that Malaysias banking sector was not near as bad off as Thailands and S. Koreas and combined with an exporting  national oil company that could float bonds on the international market to raise domestic capital made it much easier for Malaysia to recover.
TH

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Surapong confirms Thaksin removed from blacklist - The Nation
*
*Surapong confirms Thaksin removed from blacklist*

          December 16, 2011  12:00 pm 

*Foreign Minister Surapong Towichukchaikul Friday   confirmed that former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra has been removed   from the blacklist of the Foreign Ministry.*

The removal made Thaksin eligible for getting a Thai citizenship passport.

Surapong said Thaksin applied for a passport so he decided to remove him from the blacklist.

Surapong said Thaksin would not do any harm to Thailand when he is in   foreign countries holding a Thai passport so he decided to remove the   former prime minister from the blacklist.

Surapong said he acted in his authority as the foreign minister.

The Nation

----------


## Butterfly

another case of double standard, unilateral decision without a court order

unbelievable,

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ Done in an incredibly underhand way yet again...and only revealed due to a leak at the ministry....

The evidence for this government being a bunch of utterly mendacious, manipulative sycophants just keeps on piling up!

----------


## Pol the Pot

Is there a law saying the foreign minister can't take a national of his own country off a blacklist? And issue him a passport?

----------


## StrontiumDog

More detail in this report from The Bangkok Post...some repetition with earlier posts, but not going to hack it to pieces.

Bangkok Post : Thaksin's passport ban lifted

*Thaksin's passport ban lifted*
Published: 16/12/2011 at 01:30 PMOnline news:
 Foreign Minister Surapong Tovichakchaikul has  admitted to have lifted an order issued by the Abhisit Vejjajiva  government which revoked a passport of former prime minister Thaksin  Shinawatra.

 Speaking at a press conference this morning, Mr Surapong said he had  ordered the lifting of the revocation after the Consular Affairs  Department sent a letter to him through the permanent secretary that  Thaksin had applied with the Thai ambassador to Abu Dhabi for an  ordinary passport.

 The Consular Affairs Department sought his advice because Thaksin's  passport had been revoked since April 12 by the then foreign minister  Kasit Piromya under Item 23 (7) of the Foreign Affairs Ministry's  regulations.

 Mr Surapong said he and the government were of the opinion that  Thaksin's presence in a foreign country had not caused any damage to the  country and any other countries.

 He, therefore, had issued an order to lift Mr Kasit's revocation order.

 It is now the matter for the Concular Affairs Department to consider Thaksin's request for the passport, Mr Surapong said.

 "I will no longer give an interview on this matter since it would be a  waste of time.  I have the duty to promote international relations.  I  have to make preparations for the prime minister to visit India and  Burma," he said.

 Mr Surapong dared the opposition to scrutinise him in parliament if  it was of the opinion that what he had done was against the law.

----------


## StrontiumDog

tulsathit   tulsathit                                          _
Reports say Surapong giving himself A+ for his 4-month performance, voicing confident he wouldn't be removed from Cabinet._

-----
veen_NT   veena T.                                                   
    “@*tulsathit*: _Surapong says passport can now be issued for Thaksin, "but I don't know if it's been issued."”/and he's the minister of MFA?_

----------


## Pol the Pot

So it's not clear.

They should have written:




> Foreign Minister Surapong Tovichakchaikul has _stated he_ lifted  an order issued by the Abhisit Vejjajiva  government which revoked a  passport of former prime minister Thaksin  Shinawatra.


Saying he 'admitted' already implies guilt.

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by Pol the Pot

Saying he 'admitted' already implies guilt.


*

Who says he said that?

The Bangkok Post?

Nuff said.

----------


## SteveCM

> Is there a law saying the foreign minister can't take a national of his own country off a blacklist? And issue him a passport?


Not that I know of. Nor IIRC was there anything like a "court order" involved when Kasit as FM exercised his (presumed?) prerogative to put Thaksin _on_ the blacklist. If that's the case, why should there be one for another FM to take him off it?

Whatever the obvious political ripples (hence IMO "admit" _does_ seem justified), the timing of this step in the process shouldn't come as much of a surprise to anyone. It follows on quite predictably from Surapong previously announcing that he planned to make the passport a "New Years gift" - 2 weeks from now.

----------


## Pol the Pot

> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Pol the Pot
> 
> Saying he 'admitted' already implies guilt.
> 
> ...


True, always need to take that into consideration, I guess.

----------


## Calgary

> Originally Posted by Calgary
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Pol the Pot
> ...


Unfortunately PTP

----------


## Mr Lick

The fact of the matter is that Mr T is a fugitive from Thai justice and has remained so for around 3 years.

Whether members here are pro-T.anti-T or indifferent is not the issue. Countries around the world simply do not present citizens living abroad in order to escape a prison sentence in their home country, a passport. 

It is tantamount to a permitting a criminal to travel abroad with the governments blessing which of course flies in the face of the courts and justice system.

I can't recall Ronnie Biggs being issued with a UK passport while living abroad during his fugitve years but then of course i may have missed that one.  :Smile: 

The way in which this government is going off the rails in order to satisfy their leader is quite extraordinary. Their performance is sadly lacking in any form of respectability whilst they continue to make Mr T their number one priority over the nation

Should we be surprised therefore that as reported in the press, Yingluck wishes to see 'indiscriminate use of the law' whilst seemingly heading totally in the opposite direction.  :Smile:

----------


## SteveCM

*Thaksin in possesion of new Thai passport : FM - The Nation*

The Nation December 16, 2011  1:53 pm


 


Fugitive ex-PM Thaksin Shinawatra has already been  issued with his new Thai passport, Foreign Ministry's spokesman Thani  Thongpakdi said Friday.

      The Foreign Ministry issued the passport for Thaksin on October 26 and  sent it to him in Abu Dhai, UAE, via diplomatic pouch on the same day,  he said.

      Earlier Foreign Minister Surapong Tohvichakchaikul said his ministry  had repealed the passport ban on Thaksin, which was issued by former  foreign minister Kasit Piromya.

      The minister said this was done because Thaksin is harmless and is not considered a security risk to the country.

      The decision was taken after the ministry's Consular Affairs department  informed him that Thaksin had applied for an ordinary passport via the  Thai Embassy in Abu Dhabi, the United Arab Emirates on October 25. His  original passport had been cancelled on April 12, 2009, at the order of  Kasit Piromya, foreign minister in the Abhisit government.

      The cancellation was ordered under ministerial regulations, which allow  for a ban on holding passports for those nationals who do harm to the  country.

      "However I consider Khun Thaksin as harmless to the country. Therefore, I decided to revoke the order," Surapong said.

      The new government which has Thaksin's sister; Yingluck, as the prime  minister and Surapong of the Pheu Thai party, as the foreign minister,  has never hidden its intention to bring back Thaksin to Thailand.

      The revocation would enable Thaksin to get his new passport.

      Surapong said this was the last time he would talk about the matter as,  in his role as foreign minister, he has other duties to attend to,  including strengthening relationships with other countries.

----------


## Butterfly

it's not clear if that government is trying to provoke the opposition or just simply being stupid,

are they playing some kind of Chinese mind game ? someone is going to get hurt at the end, hopefully Thaksin

----------


## SteveCM

^^


> Fugitive ex-PM Thaksin Shinawatra has already been issued with his new Thai passport, Foreign Ministry's spokesman Thani Thongpakdi said Friday.  The Foreign Ministry issued the passport for Thaksin on October 26 and sent it to him in Abu Dhai, UAE, via diplomatic pouch on the same day, he said.


Something seems out of whack here. If the time-stamp on the report is to be believed (far from always the case with The Nation - so I usually exclude it), then the MFA spokesman was saying all this very soon after his boss was talking only about having revoked the blacklisting - _not about the passport having been dispatched nearly two months ago._

Still, the detail is explicit..... so  :Confused:

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ Same info on this report too, Steve...

Thai-ASEAN News Network

Thaksin's Passport Reinstated Since Oct 26

----------


## StrontiumDog

So, what do these posts on the *2nd of December* suggest about Surapong and this government. Remember, Surapong is Thaksin's cousin-in-law. 

One thing springs to mind. They lie through their teeth. 




> *More on this...*
> 
> Bangkok Post : FM: Thai passport for Thaksin soon
> 
> *FM: Thai passport for Thaksin soon*Published:  2/12/2011 at 10:32 AMOnline news:_Thailand will issue a passport for fugitive  former prime minister  Thaksin Shinawatra "very soon", Foreign Minister  Surapong  Tovichakchaikul said on Friday.
> 
>  
> __File photo of fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra. The   Thai foreign minister has said a passport for Thaksin may be issued   soon.
> 
> ...


And from the government's own website, so some retard doesn't claim bias...




> Best report from the governments own
> 
> Ex-PM Thaksin promised passport as New Year's gift: Foreign Minister
> 
> *Ex-PM Thaksin promised passport as New Year's gift: Foreign Minister*
> 
>   วันศุกร์ ที่ 02 ธ.ค. 2554 
> 
> BANGKOK, Dec 2 - Foreign Minister Surapong Tovichakchaikul on  Friday  said he is preparing to return an ordinary passport to Thailand’s   fugitive ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra soon as a ‘new year's gift’ for   him, insisting that the move complied with ministerial regulations.
> ...


And this from Yingluck herself on the 2nd of December....did she really not know about *her brother's* passport being returned? Anyone believe any of these people? Note her use of tense....it suggest that the matter has yet to be decided. Now we find out he has had it returned since October 26th...*during the height of the floods too!!!!!*

Nice priorities these people have. 




> *Bangkok Post : PM: No role in Thaksin passport
> *
> *PM: No role in Thaksin passport*Published:  2/12/2011 at 04:38 PMOnline news: Local NewsPrime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra said on  Friday afternoon that she  had nothing at all to do with the move to  reissue a Thai passport for  her elder brother, former prime minister  Thaksin.
> 
>  “I have never interfered in this case and I've left it to the relevant officials.
> 
>  "It is a matter to be decided by the Foreign Ministry, but must  be  decided in line with the law, and the principles of justice and   equality,” she said.

----------


## SteveCM

_Ex-PM Thaksin promised passport as New Year's gift: Foreign Minister

BANGKOK, Dec 2 - Foreign Minister Surapong Tovichakchaikul on  Friday said he is preparing to return an ordinary passport to Thailands  fugitive ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra soon as a new year's gift for  him, insisting that the move complied with ministerial regulations._ 

^ Posted earlier in the thread. Plainly, there's a world of difference between saying on December 2 that you're "*preparing* to return" a passport to TS and it actually having *been* returned over a month before you say it.

I suspect Surapong futures will be taking a bit of a tumble after this.....  :mid:

----------


## StrontiumDog

This in the last hour or so.....geewhiz, his sister wont interfere in her brother's passport reinstatement....what a shocker!

TAN_Network   TAN News Network                                                   

_PM orders close watch on risk areas during New Year; not to interfere in Foreign Ministry's reinstatement of Thaksin's passport_

----------


## StrontiumDog

*AFP: Ex-Thai PM Thaksin gets passport reissued

Ex-Thai PM Thaksin gets passport reissued*

 By Boonradom Chitradon (AFP) – 5 hours ago   

 BANGKOK — Thailand has given its fugitive former premier Thaksin  Shinawatra his passport back, the government said Friday, despite strong  opposition from the ex-tycoon's political opponents.

Thaksin,  whose sister Yingluck is now prime minister, received the document from  the Thai embassy in Abu Dhabi in October, the foreign ministry said.

Thaksin  was stripped of his passport by the previous Thai government but  received citizenship from Montenegro last year, allowing him to travel  internationally.

Thaksin, who remains a hugely divisive figure,  was deposed by the army in 2006 and lives in Dubai to avoid a two-year  prison term on a conviction for corruption that he contends is  politically motivated.

"This normal passport has nothing to do  with extradition or whether he's innocent, but only his nationality,"  foreign ministry spokesman Thani Thongphakdi told reporters.

"No  government agency, including the police -- judiciary and interior  ministry -- opposed the re-issue of Thaksin's passport," he said.

Thaksin's  sister Yingluck won a resounding election victory in July of this year,  in the wake of mass opposition protests in 2010 by his "Red Shirt"  supporters which ended with a bloody army crackdown.

Foreign  Minister Surapong Tovichakchaikul told reporters two weeks ago that  Thailand would give Thaksin a passport "very soon". Thani said Surapong  had not been aware then that the document had already been issued.

The  announcement stoked tensions with Thaksin's enemies, already irked by  recent reports -- denied by the government -- of plans to seek a royal  pardon for the ex-premier that could allow him to return without serving  time.

The opposition Democrat Party said at the time it was not  surprised by the decision to issue a new passport for Thaksin, saying  that Surapong's "only duty" as foreign minister was to help the fugitive  ex-premier.
Yingluck has said the passport decision rested with the foreign ministry and she was not involved.

The  row came at a delicate time for Yingluck as the 44-year-old leader, who  was a political novice before taking office in August, has been  grappling with the fallout from devastating floods.

In the early  days of her premiership, Thaksin appeared keen to boost his profile with  controversial trips to Japan and Cambodia, but he has largely remained  silent during the flood crisis, which is now largely over.

Yingluck  has not yet taken any legal steps clearing the path for her brother's  return, and a royal pardon granted to thousands of convicts to mark the  Thai king's birthday earlier this month did not include the ex-premier.

----------


## SteveCM

Dec 2



> I have never interfered in this case and I've left it to the relevant officials.  "It is a matter to be decided by the Foreign Ministry, but must be decided in line with the law, and the principles of justice and equality, she said.


Dec 16



> PM... not to interfere in Foreign Ministry's reinstatement of Thaksin's passport


Same same.

----------


## SteveCM

^^ 


> Thani said Surapong had not been aware then that the document had already been issued.


In which case, those within the MFA who _were_ aware needed to tell him. By rights, ministers necessarily resign over situations like this.

----------


## sabang

> "This normal passport has nothing to do with extradition or whether he's innocent, but only his nationality,"


I have to agree with that. When Thaksin was stripped of his passport- both Diplomatic and normal- there was no due process involved, no court case, not even an application made to cancel. The then foreign minister, fresh from occupying Thailand's major international airport with the PAD, just unilaterally announced that he had cancelled the passport.

----------


## SteveCM

From MCOT:

16 December 2011

17:31  PM says she has just learned of passport being reissued to ex-premier Thaksin

PM says she has just learned of passport being reissued to  ex-premier Thaksin, her brother; Foreign Ministry spokesman says  passport was reissued Oct 26

----------


## Gerbil

^^ Passports are property of the government, not the individual.

----------


## sabang

If the passport was issued on the 26th Oct, I definitely do not agree with the duplicity of the FM though. Why didn't he just announce it? Kasit, now this clown- it doesn't seem that Thailand places much importance on the role of Foreign Minister.

----------


## SteveCM

^At the risk of attracting the usual deluge..... it's not duplicity if he didn't know - but then it looks just plain dumb. As always, if he's the boss supposedly running the place - then, by rights, he has to take responsibility and carry the can for it.

Remembering the comments about his suitability when appointed, it'll no doubt be suggested that he was always intended as a one-trick disposable commodity.

Here's a neat idea: give him the order of the Spanish archer and slide Theera out of Agriculture into the MFA.....  :Cool2:

----------


## lom

> Surapong is Thaksin's cousin-in-law.


and blood is thicker than water 




> I suspect Surapong futures will be taking a bit of a tumble after this.....


yeah but prolly not in the direction you were thinking of  :Smile:

----------


## sabang

> Mr T is a fugitive from Thai justice


If there were such a thing as Thai justice, T would be far from alone in exile.

----------


## Mr Lick

^ Certainly there will always be those who prefer to live abroad rather than 'face the music'. Thailand i suspect has it's fair share of ex-pats residing here in order to evade justice from their home countries

In relation to Thaksin's passport withdrawal by the former government there would be no need to apply to a court for such steps to be taken. It is not a legal matter, no one has the right to own a passport. The issue of one is at the discretion of the government following the submission of an application.

Havng left/not returned to his native country in order to avoid a custodial sentence it would be the duty of the government following the judicial judgement to prevent a high profile character such as Mr T to travel around the world with their blessing.

The excuses put forward by the PTP that the passport is being returned to him as it is a form of ID and/or that he is no longer a threat to the country just doean't hold water. It is simply wrong.

Of course, no one should be surprised that such matters occur when the PM and cabinet ministers are closely related to the fugitive, however, they will continue to feed more ammuntion to the opposition and weaken their case as a 'party for the people' with such actions.

----------


## Butterfly

> PM orders close watch on risk areas during New Year; not to interfere in Foreign Ministry's reinstatement of Thaksin's passport


damn, she must the first PM in Thailand not knowing what's going on in her own cabinet

wait, she might actually be right  :Razz: 




> If there were such a thing as Thai justice, T would be far from alone in exile.


If there was such a thing as Thai justice, T wouldn't have been PM, period.

----------


## StrontiumDog

Bangkok Post : Thaksin advised to stay out of 'Hilton'

ABOUT Politics

*Thaksin advised to stay out of 'Hilton'*

*Exiled ex-PM may be confident of a pardon in the  Ratchadaphisek deal, but other pending cases make a return to Thailand  too risky* 

Published: 17/12/2011 at 12:00 AMNewspaper section: News
 The idea of extending a stay to ousted  ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra at the old ''Hilton'' _ the converted  private police school in Bang Khen _ does not appear to sit well with  the Pheu Thai Party's ranks.

 _
Thaksin: Urged to stay put._

 For a while, fanfare had greeted the possibility of Thaksin being  homeward bound and spending a few nights at the old school, which is  being converted to house political prisoners.

 Some insiders had initially presumed the facility would be stripped from inside out in anticipation of Thaksin's arrival.

 It was thought the former premier might stay at the political  prisoner detention centre while waiting for a hoped-for royal pardon on  his two-year jail term in the Ratchadaphisek land case.

 However, a source close to the former prime minister warned Thaksin  could spend a lot longer at the centre than planned if he decided to  return to Thailand from his self-exile and be detained there.

 Even if Thaksin was to be pardoned over the Ratchadaphisek land case,  he still faces an uncertain future in other pending criminal cases: the  illegal issue of two- and three-digit lotteries, the alleged abuse of  power linked to his approval of an Exim Bank loan to Burma, and  illegally changing telecommunication concession fees into excise tax.

 The charges stemmed from alleged wrongdoings during his time as prime minister between 2001 and 2006.

 The source said it could not be guaranteed that if Thaksin was  pardoned on the Ratchadaphisek sentencing that he would receive a  similar reprieve on other pending cases.

 Pheu Thai members felt that would be too much of a risk for Thaksin to take.

 Each of the cases will be deliberated by nine Supreme Court judges.

 That translates into 27 judges, of whom the majority will have to  give Thaksin clearance if he is to win judgements in the three cases.

 Since the pardon option was uncertain for Thaksin, it came as no  surprise that the government was pressing ahead with an amnesty bill.

 A legislative channel was a surer bet as the ruling Pheu Thai Party  and coalition partners could take advantage of their parliamentary  majority and easily push through the amnesty bill now cloaked under the  fancy guise of a ''draft National Reconciliation Act''.

 The draft seeks to enact a blanket amnesty for offenders across the  political divide who committed political offences after the Sept 19,  2006 coup that drove Thaksin from power.

 Political observers agreed pushing the bill through is the single most important task for the government.

 The task fell in the lap of Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yubamrung,  who has never denied a personal priority to bring Thaksin home a free  man.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*The Himalayan Times : Ex-Thai PM Thaksin Shinawatra reaches Lumbini in Nepal - Detail News : Nepal News Portal
*
*Ex-Thai PM Thaksin Shinawatra reaches Lumbini in Nepal                                                     * 

                                 Added At:  2011-12-16  6:52 PM
                                                                     Last Updated At:  2011-12-16  7:50 PM


AFP/File
                                     Thaksin Shinawatra was ousted by the army in 2006

*THT ONLINE

*                                                                                                                     Local authorities were informed about Shinawatra's visit upon his arrival in Bhairahawa.                                        

KATHMANDU: Former Thai Prime Minister Thaksin  Shinawatra has come to Nepal to visit Lumbini, the birthplace of Lord  Gautam Buddha on Friday.

It has been learnt that he touched down in the Tribhuvan  International Airport in Kathmandu this afternoon. He came on a  chartered plane which flew from Myanmar. 

Boarding a Yeti Airlines plane from Kathmandu, the Thai leader  reached the Gautam Buddha Airport in Bhairahawa at 6:15 pm, according to  our Rupandehi-based reporter Arun Gyawali. 

Shinawatra then headed towards Lumbini, which lies 22 km west of Bhairahawa in Rupandehi district. 

The Thai leader checked in at the Lumbini-based Kasai Hotel,  Inspector Dharma Raj Bhandari of Area Police Office Lumbini confirmed. A  team of police has been deployed for his security.

Local authorities were informed about Shinawatra's "personal trip" upon his arrival in Bhairahawa. 

Shinawatra was ousted from power in a bloodless coup d'état in 2006  and has been living in self-imposed exile in Dubai since then.

*Read Also*: Ex-Thai PM Thaksin gets passport reissued

Earlier today, the Thai government, led by his sister, confirmed that it lifted a ban on Shinawatra holding a Thai passport.

It is not known if the former premier used his Thai passport to enter Nepal*.

-----
** http://www.thehimalayantimes.com/ful...sID=312995&a=3

Former Thai fugitive PM lands in Nepal                                                     * 

  Visit kept hush-hush with authorities refusing to acknowledge 

Added At:  2011-12-16  11:36 PM
                                                                     Last Updated At:  2011-12-16  11:36 PM

*LEKHANATH PANDEY*

KATHMANDU: Former Thai prime minister Thaksin  Shinawatra landed in Kathmandu incognito today, but police and  immigration officials refused to acknowledge any such visit by  Thailand’s billionaire ex-leader. 

It is learnt that Shinawatra landed in Kathmandu ‘all of a sudden’  from Myanmar, along with at least four persons, whose identities could  not be ascertained. Thaksin flew to Kathmandu in a chartered flight as  ‘a guest of Thai Ambassador to Nepal Maria Sangiampongsa’ and landed at  Tribhuvan International Airport at 4:30pm.

Thaksin was received at TIA by the Thai ambassador and embassy officials. 

Knowledgeable sources said the former Thai prime minister then  headed for Lumbini in an Yeti Air flight along with the Thai envoy. 

DIG Narayan Bastakoti merely confirmed that Thai embassy officials  were at the airport to ‘receive a VIP guest’. The security chief at the  airport denied having any knowledge about the visiting personality. “Was  it the ex-prime minister of Thailand himself?” he asked, feigning that  he had no idea about his arrival.

THT correspondent reported from Bhairahawa that Thaksin landed at  Gautam Buddha Airport around 6:15 pm. Police Inspector Dharmaraj  Bhandari of Area Police Office, Lumbini, said he came to know about  Thaksin’s visit through television channels and subsequently deployed  police for his security. 

Foreign Secretary Durga Prasad Bhattarai in Kathmandu said his  ministry was not ‘formally aware’ about his sojourn, while Deputy Prime  Minister and Foreign Minister Narayan Kaji Shrestha told this daily that  he would ask the Thai envoy about the visit. A knowledgeable source,  however, claimed that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs was informed about  the visit weeks ago, but it was kept a top secret due to Thaksin’s  fugitive status.

Security has been beefed up in Lumbini, where Thaksin is scheduled  to spend night at Kasai Hotel. He will perform prayers at the Thai  Monastery as per Buddhist tradition tomorrow morning. 

Thaksin will return to Kathmandu in a Yeti Air flight tomorrow and  will fly to Dubai without entering the city. A staff at the Thai  embassy, however, claimed that members of Thaksin’s delegation would visit the Royal Thai Embassy at Maharajgunj tomorrow morning.

Thaksin’s Kathmandu sojourn coincides with media reports in Bangkok  today that said Thailand gave the fugitive former prime minister his  passport back.

Thaksin was stripped of his passport by the previous Thai government but received citizenship from Montenegro last year, allowing him to travel internationally.

Thaksin’s sister Yingluck, now Thai prime minister, won a resounding  election victory in July of this year, in the wake of mass opposition  protests in 2010 by his ‘Red Shirt’ supporters which ended with a bloody  army crackdown.

In a long-awaited decision, Thailand’s Supreme Court in February  2010 ruled that the fugitive former prime minister had abused his power  for personal gains and should be stripped of $1.4 billion of his frozen  $2.3-billion fortune.

Thaksin remains a hugely divisive figure in his country and was  deposed by the army in 2006. He lives in Dubai to avoid a two-year  prison term on a conviction for corruption that he contends is  politically motivated. In Bangkok, Yingluck government faces tensions  stoked by Thaksin’s enemies, already irked by recent reports of plans to  seek a royal pardon for the ex-premier, allowing Thaksin to return without serving time.

----------


## Mid

so now he's got a passport will he be travelling to Thailand ?  :mid:

----------


## sabang

Rumour has it he's been in and out more than once in the last few years actually.

----------


## Mr Lick

^ His brother Elvis was also rumoured to be playing in a rock band in Radio City.  :Smile:

----------


## noelbino

Was here for his daughter's wedding.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> Originally Posted by Pol the Pot
> 
> 
> ....
> Comparing Thailand with Malaysia is just too optimistic.
> 
> ....
> 
> 
> ...


Uhh.. you mean like since the Malay are the majority -- by far? Yeah wouldn't want to pretend that 90% of the population being controlled by 10% Chinese (who wear their race on their sleeve by the way) is wrong now would we, my learned friend?

----------


## hazz

^i would call you out for talking daily mAil grade bollocks there, but then you are not being very clear about what you are suggesting.

----------


## sabang

The fact that there is even any attempt to eke out some sort of comparison netween Malaysia and Thailand, Mahathir and Thaksin, is pathetic when you look at it. I hereby invoke Godwin's law- lets get back to the good old Nazi's shall we? Always good for a few more meaningless posts, a bit more meaningless drivel.

Why these totally inapt, inept, meaningless 'comparisons'? Because Coup apologists are arguing the indefensible, simple as that. They got nothing.
We are dealing with trashing a Constitution, depriving the people of their Right of Suffrage, Capital crimes, and ultimately, an abject failure that only took Thailand backwards and divided the country like never before. Thats the botom line, and it hardly requires a scholar to work that out. Or a Thaksin fan, for that matter.

The final Act in this tragicomedy, this farce, was when the Yingluck government was voted in by Thailand's second only Absolute majority- and there is a certain exquisite irony there, because of course the first ever Absolute majority was the very same Thaksin government that was illegally ousted in a Military Putsch, some 5 years ago. How sweet. All that remains is a distinct minorities obsession and monomania. Get over it.

----------


## tsicar

> The fact that there is even any attempt to eke out some sort of comparison netween Malaysia and Thailand, Mahathir and Thaksin, is pathetic when you look at it. I hereby invoke Godwin's law- lets get back to the good old Nazi's shall we? Always good for a few more meaningless posts, a bit more meaningless drivel.
> 
> Why these totally inapt, inept, meaningless 'comparisons'? Because Coup apologists are arguing the indefensible, simple as that. They got nothing.
> We are dealing with trashing a Constitution, depriving the people of their Right of Suffrage, Capital crimes, and ultimately, an abject failure that only took Thailand backwards and divided the country like never before. Thats the botom line, and it hardly requires a scholar to work that out. Or a Thaksin fan, for that matter.
> 
> The final Act in this tragicomedy, this farce, was when the Yingluck government was voted in by Thailand's second only Absolute majority- and there is a certain exquisite irony there, because of course the first ever Absolute majority was the very same Thaksin government that was illegally ousted in a Military Putsch, some 5 years ago. How sweet. All that remains is a distinct minorities obsession and monomania. Get over it.


yep.
and that should be the end of it all.
and of this thread.
....but it won't be.
..............unfortunately.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> The fact that there is even any attempt to eke out some sort of comparison netween Malaysia and Thailand, Mahathir and Thaksin, is pathetic when you look at it. I hereby invoke Godwin's law- lets get back to the good old Nazi's shall we? Always good for a few more meaningless posts, a bit more meaningless drivel.
> 
> Why these totally inapt, inept, meaningless 'comparisons'? Because Coup apologists are arguing the indefensible, simple as that. They got nothing.
> We are dealing with trashing a Constitution, depriving the people of their Right of Suffrage, Capital crimes, and ultimately, an abject failure that only took Thailand backwards and divided the country like never before. Thats the botom line, and it hardly requires a scholar to work that out. Or a Thaksin fan, for that matter.
> 
> The final Act in this tragicomedy, this farce, was when the Yingluck government was voted in by Thailand's second only Absolute majority- and there is a certain exquisite irony there, because of course the first ever Absolute majority was the very same Thaksin government that was illegally ousted in a Military Putsch, some 5 years ago. How sweet. All that remains is a distinct minorities obsession and monomania. Get over it.


For someone who claims to not particularly like Thaksin, you spend a lot of time and energy jumping to his defense.

----------


## StrontiumDog

http://www.asianewsnet.net/home/news.php?sec=3

*Thaksin passport takes us out of the water, into the fire*

*News Desk* 
*The Nation*
Publication Date : 18-12-2011

At the height of Thailand's flood crisis,  the Yingluck government gave Thaksin Shinawatra back his passport.  That's a fact that Thailand's divided people will see in different ways.  One side will say Thaksin is still a criminal convict, thus the covert  stunt that took advantage of a nation in flood panic was not just a  betrayal, but an act of contempt for the country's rule of law. The  other side must see the returned passport as another step toward  restoring "justice", disregarding the manner in which the document was  requested and promptly issued. The question, however, remains whether  the prime minister, who was in tears on a few occasions while visiting  flood victims, should have at least waited.

With the Yingluck government also  pondering a "reconciliation" bill that could cover amnesty for Thaksin,  it seems that Thailand has emerged from the flood waters to go straight  into the political fire. The semblance of peace effected by the  months-long natural disaster is threatening to disintegrate. A country  reeling from staggering economic losses and mental damage from the big  floods will now have no choice but try to see through a new round of  potentially explosive political divisions. As a Thai saying goes, we  have fled from a tiger and run straight into a crocodile.

According to the Foreign Ministry, which  was under pressure to make revelations after the Democrat Party tipped  off the public about the returned passport, Thaksin made a request for  the travel document on October 25. One day later, the passport was sent  to him via diplomatic pouch. Foreign Minister Surapong Towichukchaikul  made that possible by de-listing Thaksin as a national security threat.  How the minister came to that conclusion, as well as the assumption that  Thaksin, who's still a fugitive, technically at least, should have more  freedom to travel, we still do not know.

Due to the government's secretive manner  when it comes to Thaksin, all we can do is speculate. It's notable that  Thaksin got his passport before news leaked about the government  attempting to include him in the list of Thai prisoners to be released  to mark His Majesty the King's birthday. The "pardon plan" did not exist  and was a result of media "imagination" only, according to senior  figures in the Yingluck government when they were pressed with questions  about it in November. Does the passport confirmation tell us that the  "pardon plan" was not media imagination after all?

Surapong will cite plenty of reasons that  Thaksin deserved his passport back. But he also owes the Thai public an  explanation for why he had to keep the re-issuance of the passport a  secret. This secret would have remained but for an unsigned letter that a  Democrat spokesman read out to the media earlier this week.

The minister will have to justify the  secrecy. Like the "pardon plan", Thaksin's passport issue deserves total  transparency. Surapong is a state official, which means he is  accountable to the Thai public. Among the first questions to Surapong is  on whether he ever intended to tell the Thai people about Thaksin's new  passport at all. And if he intended to tell the Thai public "at a later  time", when exactly would that have been? Why couldn't he tell the Thai  public immediately after the passport was issued? Did he keep silent  because he thought it was a sensitive issue that could provoke national  tension at a very bad time? If so, why did he do it in the first place?

Last but not least, why did Surapong say  just over a week ago that he "will" give Thaksin back his passport as a  New Year or even Christmas gift? Why did he use the future tense when  talking about something that he had already done? Again, his actions  warrant speculation because of his own suspicious manner. Perhaps he was  aware that the news was about to be leaked, so the lie was a desperate  effort to absorb some shocks to be generated from the Democrat  disclosure.

Maybe Surapong did not think about it,  but he did not insult the Thai public just once. He has done it twice  already, and all indications are that he has not spoken even half the  truth yet.

----------


## Mid

> For someone who claims to not particularly like  Thaksin, you spend a lot of time and energy jumping to his  defense.


and just where outside of the SD manifesto does it say you have to like someone to defend them ?

 :mid:

----------


## StrontiumDog

TAN_Network   TAN News Network                                                   

            Foreign Minister Surapong not worried about Cabinet reshuffle as his achievements are evident

----------


## Mid

^

and this is news  :Sad: 

JHC SD give us a break ?

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> 
> For someone who claims to not particularly like  Thaksin, you spend a lot of time and energy jumping to his  defense.
> 
> 
> and just where outside of the SD manifesto does it say you have to like someone to defend them ?


I don't know Mid...I take it you aren't someone who likes Pol Pot that much? Do you find yourself defending him often?

----------


## StrontiumDog

> ^
> 
> and this is news 
> 
> JHC SD give us a break ?


Yes, it contains information. 

Which bit don't you understand?

----------


## Mid

oh ffs there is NO information there you twat

----------


## Mid

> I don't know Mid...I take it you aren't someone who likes Pol Pot that much? Do you find yourself defending him often?


has exactly what to do with the subject ?

----------


## StrontiumDog

^^ So Surapong, Thaksin's relative, saying that he isn't worried about the theoretical upcoming reshuffle, because of his achievements (returning Thaksin's passport in a completely deceitful manner, as there has been little else) isn't news? 

Oh okay then. Thanks Mid...It is nice to know that you can decide for everyone else what is and isn't newsworthy.

----------


## DroversDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> I don't know Mid...I take it you aren't someone who likes Pol Pot that much? Do you find yourself defending him often?
> 
> 
> has exactly what to do with the subject ?


He is trying to taint everybody who doesn't think like him with the likes of Pol Pot and Stalin.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> I don't know Mid...I take it you aren't someone who likes Pol Pot that much? Do you find yourself defending him often?
> 
> 
> has exactly what to do with the subject ?


It is called a comparison and answers your point. 

However, we could also use Hun Sen, probably a better comparison, as he has been voted in over and over again, for a couple of decades now. 

So, I take it you don't particularly like Hun Sen Mid? Do you find yourself defending him often?

----------


## Mid

you fokin clown , address the question

since when do you have to like someone to defend them ?

----------


## Mid

> Oh okay then. Thanks Mid...It is nice to know that you can decide for everyone else what is and isn't newsworthy.


fok you are a fool , that tweet was no doubt churned out by some 1st yr PR hack who task was to get his bosses name in the papers today

it's even money that the Minister in question didn't even say the words.

and you give the shite traction by breathlessly rebroadcasting it as if it's some earthshattering information

----------


## Butterfly

Mid, why don't you shut up, you idiot american fool ?

----------


## Mid

hello butterbut , was betting you wouldn't be far away , jumping in to stir the pot 

oh yea go fok yourself tool

----------


## Butterfly

> For someone who claims to not particularly like Thaksin, you spend a lot of time and energy jumping to his defense.


typical conservative MO, loyal to fascist leader until the end, just because he likes him

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> Oh okay then. Thanks Mid...It is nice to know that you can decide for everyone else what is and isn't newsworthy.
> 
> 
> fok you are a fool , that tweet was no doubt churned out by some 1st yr PR hack who task was to get his bosses name in the papers today
> 
> it's even money that the Minister in question didn't even say the words.
> 
> and you give the shite traction by breathlessly rebroadcasting it as if it's some earthshattering information


So, Surapong didn't say it?

TAN network, a news gathering service, who by the way, do post corrections for Tweets, are just making it up, right?

----------


## Mid

SD the point is plain , though I'm not surprised you chose to ignore it

----------


## StrontiumDog

> SD the point is plain , though I'm not surprised you chose to ignore it


No, the point isn't plain. It is from a news service. 

Now, you seem to be claiming it is somehow illegitimate. So, go on, explain why it isn't worth posting. 

And while you are at it, you'll have to criticise others, such as SteveCM who also posts tweets....

Oh no, you wont do that, because this isn't about any other than your childish, pathetic ego....

----------


## Mid

I referred to the specific tweet you posted SD , nothing to do with any other tweet .

and the point is as plain as the nose on your face though I'll repeat your obstinance in refusing to acknowledge it does not surprise .

----------


## StrontiumDog

> I referred to the specific tweet you posted SD , nothing to do with any other tweet .
> 
> and the point is as plain as the nose on your face though I'll repeat your obstinance in refusing to acknowledge it does not surprise .


The point being Mid?

Please be more specific.

----------


## Butterfly

SD, stop arguing with Mid, he is a frustrated retard

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> For someone who claims to not particularly like Thaksin, you spend a lot of time and energy jumping to his defense.


For someone who claims to be neutral, you spend a lot of time and energy jumping to the offence about Thaksin.
 :mid:

----------


## sabang

> For someone who claims to not particularly like Thaksin, you spend a lot of time and energy jumping to his defense.


For someone who claims to like democracy, you spend a lot of meaningless time and energy arguing against it. get over it.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> 
>  
> For someone who claims to not particularly like Thaksin, you spend a lot of time and energy jumping to his defense.
> 
> 
> For someone who claims to be neutral, you spend a lot of time and energy jumping to the offence about Thaksin.



Ah, yes, because criticising Thaksin would of course mean I wasn't neutral....well done Tom, yet another fine display of that high IQ you mentioned you possessed before...outstanding reasoning!  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> For someone who claims to not particularly like Thaksin, you spend a lot of time and energy jumping to his defense.
> 
> 
> For someone who claims to like democracy, you spend a lot of meaningless time and energy arguing against it. get over it.


No I don't, where did I say such a thing?...and I hope this post isn't an example of your reasoning skills Sabang. You should be embarrassed.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Thaksin not using Thai passport, adviser says - The Nation
*
*Thaksin not using Thai passport, adviser says*

         The Nation December 19, 2011  1:00 am 

*Noppadon Pattama, a legal adviser to Thaksin  Shinawatra, yesterday dismissed an accusation that the fugitive former  prime minister used a Thai passport to travel to foreign countries.*

Saying Thaksin had been using his Montenegrin passport, Noppadon  accused the opposition Democrat Party of discriminating against Thaksin  when it was in power by cancelling his Thai passport. He said the former  government had not cancelled passports of people sentenced to harsher  penalties, such as Somchai Khunplume ('Kamnan Poh') and Vatana  Asavahame.

The Democrat-led government disseminated false information that Thaksin  was on Interpol's red list and lied when it said that Thaksin was on a  Foreign Ministry blacklist, Noppadon claimed.

He claimed the Democrat-led government had spent almost two years  trying to hunt Thaksin down, but failed because foreign countries knew  that the drive to arrest Thaksin was politically motivated. Many  countries had granted passports to Thaksin, he said. Noppadon said the  fact Thaksin had received his Thai passport did not cause any damage to  the country. "The Democrats are making a lot of noise because they  cannot stand seeing justice handed to Thaksin,'' he said.

----------


## Gerbil

> and lied when it said that Thaksin was on a Foreign Ministry blacklist, Noppadon claimed.


Uhhhmmm.... Didn't they just announce he was on the blacklist but had been removed?




> Many countries had *sold* passports to Thaksin


Fixed that.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## sabang

^^ What is the big deal if he had?

----------


## Butterfly

^ why even advertise he didn't use it ? what a fucking mess they are putting themselves into

----------


## Tom Sawyer

I'll bet they never cancelled the passports of the right-wing dictators forced into exile either. They, and their kids, are routinely flying back and forth between Thailand and California or Pennsylvania. First Class of course. Sweet in'it.

----------


## Rural Surin

> I'll bet they never cancelled the passports of the right-wing dictators forced into exile either. They, and their kids, are routinely flying back and forth between Thailand and California or Pennsylvania. First Class of course. Sweet in'it.


Decent public relations and conditioning of an extended bias.
Life is grand when absorbing the same old pablum continuously.

Historic truths never teach us anything, TS.

----------


## StrontiumDog

Thai-ASEAN News Network

Abhisit: Thaksin Not Eligible for Thai Passport 

UPDATE : 19 December 2011                      *

The Opposition Party Leader urged the government to act responsibly in issuing a Thai passport to the fugitive former leader.

 Opposition Party Leader Abhisit Vejjajiva reiterated that Prime  Minister Yingluck Shinawatra must take responsiblity after Foreign  Minister Surapong Towichakchaikul’s approved the reissue of the Thai  passport of former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra. 
*

Abhisit pointed out that Thaksin, who is also the older sibling of the  premiere, remains a fugitive and has not served time in a corruption  case conviction. 

Consequently, Thaksin should not be eligible for a new passport.

In addition, the officials that lend a hand in the re-issuance should also be held responsible in the matter. 

Abhisit asked why the government concealed the process of issuing the passport. 

Apart from that, the legal adviser to Thaksin, Noppadon Pattama, earlier  denied that Thaksin had sent any petitions asking for a new passport. 

Meanwhile, the Pheu Thai Party spokesman and party list MP Prompong  Nopparit insisted that the premiere had nothing to do with returning the  passport since it is under the authority of the Foreign Minister. 

Prompong blasted the Democrats, saying the moves are politically  motivated and meant as an attack against the government and a ways of  discrediting the Premiere. 

He also threatened to counter-sue the Democrats, should the Democrat's legal team decide to press charges against the Premiere. 

Moreover, Prompong revealed that there are insurgents that are aiming to topple the government after the New Year Festival.

----------


## sabang

He has a point there- a discredited ex-PM is surely not eligible for a passport from the country he was born in. Never mind one born overseas. She'll be right Mark, you've still got the pommy passport mate.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Democrats accuse Thaksin's adviser of distorting facts - The Nation
*
*Democrats accuse Thaksin's adviser of distorting facts*

         The Nation December 20, 2011  1:00 am 
 

*The opposition Democrat Party yesterday accused  former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra's legal adviser of trying to  distort facts related to the ex-PM's passport controversy.*

Democrat spokesman Chavanond Intarakomalsut disputed Noppadon Pattama's  claim that the Democrat-led government had disseminated false  information that Thaksin was on Interpol's "red-notice list" of wanted  persons and had lied that former PM was on the Foreign Ministry's  blacklist.

Chavanond said that his party's legal team was gathering evidence to  file a court petition against Foreign Minister Surapong Towichukchaikul  for violating the law and the Foreign Ministry's regulation against  returning Thaksin his passport.

He told the press yesterday that there was an arrest warrant out for  Thaksin, and that a Supreme Court order had been issued to the Foreign  Ministry explaining why the former PM could not be allowed to return to  Thailand and a wanted notice had been sent to several countries. 

"I wonder if Noppadon has really got a law degree from Oxford  University as he claims. He doesn't understand simple legal statements.  In the past I thought he was just pretending to be stupid, but now I'm  convinced that he is not pretending," Chavanond said.

He said the wanted notice issued by the Foreign Ministry could confirm  Thaksin's status. "This document should be destroyed before someone at  the Foreign Ministry sends me a copy. If I get this document, I will  have proof that the Foreign Ministry was, in fact, aware of Thaksin's  status," he said.

Last week, the Foreign Ministry confirmed that Thaksin's Thai passport,  seized by the previous Democrat-led government, had been returned to  him. The foreign minister had said earlier that he would make sure  Thaksin got his passport back before the New Year. 

The ministry's confirmation came after Chavanond said that he had  learned from unnamed ministry official that the ministry's computer  records about Thaksin being on the black list had been altered so a new  passport could be issued for him.

Yesterday, Chavanond also accused Noppadon of lying when he said that  Thaksin had not filed an appeal for his passport to be returned. The  Democrat spokesman said Foreign Ministry officials had confirmed that  Thaksin had filed a petition with the Thai embassy at the United Arab  Emirates, where the ex-PM is living on self-imposed exile.

"Noppadon did not mention this fact. He is trying to distort this matter," Chavanond said.

He went on to counter Noppadon's accusation that the previous  Democrat-led administration had discriminated against Thaksin by  cancelling his passport. In the accusation, Noppadon cited the fact that  previous governments had not cancelled the passports of other fugitive  politicians, like Vatana Asavahame and Somchai Khunplume, who were  sentenced for harsher offences.

Chavanond said the Foreign Ministry was acting under a ministry  regulation that required the passport of persons who cause damage to the  country while overseas be cancelled. 

"Vatana and Somchai were not in that position," he added.

In response to Noppadon's remark that Thaksin was using his Montenegrin  passport to travel and had no need for a Thai passport, Chavanond  responded that the issue was that Thaksin had been returned his passport  despite the fact that he had violated the law and ministry regulations.  

"Thaksin seems to have more rights than other people. This is an instance of double standards," he said.

----------


## StrontiumDog

Bangkok Post : Loopholes in law cloud the Thaksin passport saga

BEHIND the NEWS

*Loopholes in law cloud  the Thaksin passport saga*
Published: 20/12/2011 at 12:00 AMNewspaper section: News
 The Democrat Party's revelation that Foreign  Minister Surapong Tovichakchaikul reissued an ordinary passport to  former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra in October has fortified  critics' belief in this being a single-agenda government.

 _
Thaksin: Debate over documentation_

 Mr Surapong initially prevaricated when he was asked to confirm the  news. Later he admitted he ordered Foreign Ministry officials to reissue  the passport several weeks earlier.

 Technically, no one can be accused of doing anything wrong since  politicians in the big two parties, Pheu Thai and the Democrats, used a  bus-sized loophole in ministry regulations to take their respective  courses of action _ withdrawal then reissue of the passport.

  In 2008, a source said, the Foreign Ministry wrote to the police and  the Supreme Court for advice on what to do with Thaksin's passport after  he was found guilty of corruption in the Ratchadaphisek land purchase  deal and was given a two-year jail sentence in absentia.

 But their response merely detailed the facts about the case. They  gave no suggestion as to what the ministry should do about the passport,  the source said.

 Kasit Piromya, who was then foreign minister under the Abhisit  administration, cited ministry regulation 23(7) to revoke Thaksin's  passport. The regulation empowers the ministry to recall a passport from  any holder if that person causes damage to the country or other  countries.

 The source said Mr Kasit's decision was based purely on that  regulation, not regulation 21(3) which prohibits a passport being issued  to a person wanted under an arrest warrant from the Criminal Court.

 "The ministry cannot, by itself, deny a passport for a person who is  on the blacklist or being wanted on an arrest warrant. Relevant agencies  are needed to formally notify the Foreign Ministry if they want it to  revoke a passport of someone to prevent that person from travelling  overseas," the source explained.

 Another source said ministry officials did not suggest Mr Surapong return the passport to Thaksin.

 After Thaksin made his request for the return of his ordinary  passport to the Thai Embassy in Abu Dhabi on Oct 25, the Consular  Department only informed Mr Surapong of the cause of the passport  revocation.

 "By using the same regulation 23(7) that was used to revoke Thaksin's  passport, Mr Surapong justified his action that he did not see Thaksin  had caused damage to the country. So he ordered Mr Kasit's order to be  revoked," the source said.

 Now that the passport has been returned, the question arises as to  who is accountable for the whole debacle, especially if malpractice can  be proved in court.

 It seems the ministry officials are protected since it was Mr  Surapong who signed the order for the paper to be returned to Thaksin.

 The minister even assured the ministry staff the government would  take full responsibility for the move if it was brought up in public.

 State civil servants have a duty to comply with government orders,  even though "this issue is always going to be a political issue", the  source said.

 To keep the issue alive, Democrat spokesman Chavanond  Intarakomalyasut yesterday accused Noppadon Pattama, Thaksin 's legal  adviser, of distorting the law in favour of his boss.

 Mr Chavanond said the Democrat-led coalition government had not  revoked the passports of two other high-profile politicians who have  fled the country after being found guilty of criminal offences _ Somchai  Khunploem and Vatana Asavahame _ as neither had tried to incite people  in other countries to move against Thailand.

 Mr Noppadon had earlier pointed out that the previous government had  not cancelled their passports even though they were convicted of more  serious offences.

 Mr Chavanond, a former secretary to Mr Kasit, defended the former  minister's order to revoke Thaksin's passport under regulation 23(7).

 He said the regulation empowers the Foreign Ministry to cancel a  passport if the person travels around and causes damage to Thailand.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/poli...-pm-burma-trip
*
*Thaksin behind PM's Burma trip*

*Paved way for historic Suu Kyi meeting today * 
Published: 20/12/2011 at 12:00 AMNewspaper section: News
_Ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra confirmed  yesterday he travelled to Burma last week to help smooth the way for his  sister, Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra, to visit and said the move  would benefit Thailand._

_The meeting today between Ms Yingluck and Burma's pro-democracy icon  Aung San Suu Kyi is symbolic of democracy and the cordial relations  Thailand and Burma have enjoyed, he said._

_Thaksin told the Bangkok Post in an exclusive interview by phone from  Dubai he travelled to Burma last Thursday and visited Burmese President  Thein Sein and former president Than Shwe._

_Thaksin admitted he helped smooth the way for Ms Yingluck to visit and meet Mrs Suu Kyi._

_Thaksin said the meeting of the two political leaders has significant implications and shows two things._

_First, allowing Ms Yingluck to meet Mrs Suu Kyi means Burma attaches a  great deal of importance to Thailand. It is the first time a Thai  leader has met the democracy icon. Burma has never allowed the leaders  of other countries to hold such a meeting before, Thaksin said._

_Second, the world community will also know Thailand has advocated and  promoted democracy vigorously and that Burma considers Thailand as its  most important neighbour._

_"Relations between Thailand and Burma have never faded since my time.  I never used a stick to deal with Burma like the superpowers did. I  always used a carrot to deal with it," Thaksin said._

_He also said when he was prime minister, he once offered Burma an  opportunity to use Bangkok as a venue to draw up its constitution and  gave Burma a chance to explain itself to western countries with the goal  of them lifting sanctions on the country._


Article goes off topic....click the link to see the rest.....

See also...Burma's poppy profits

----------


## Calgary

^ and ^^

Amart media paranoia floweth over!

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ The second piece is an interview with Thaksin....please explain how that fits into your rather paranoid reality?

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Bangkok Post : Network to seek Surapong's removal
*
*Network to seek Surapong's removal*
Published: 20/12/2011 at 12:09 PMOnline news:
 Tul Sitthisomwong, core member of the Network of  Citizen Volunteers to Protect the Land, has launched a campaign to  gather the signatures of at least 20,000 eligible voters to back a  petition to the Senate seeking the removal of Foreign Minister Surapong  Tovichakchaikul.

 
_Tul Sitthisomwong (Photo by Chanat Katanyu)_

 Dr Tul on Tuesday called on Senate Speaker Teeradej Meepien to  officially notify him of his intention to launch the campaign against Mr  Surapong for re-issueing an ordinary passport for former prime minister  Thaksin Shinawatra in alleged violation of Foreign Ministry  regulations.

 If he was able to acquire sufficient evidence, he would also petition  the National Anti-Corruption Commuission (NACC) for criminal action  against the officials involved, he said.

 Dr Tul said as far as he knew, the process of returning the passport  to Thaksin began with a letter from the Thai ambassador to Abu Dhabi to  the Foreign Ministry.

 The Network of Citizen Volunteers to Protect the Land also issued a  statement condemning the Yingluck Shinawatra government for having not  paid enough attention on flood victims and concentrating only on helping  the ousted premier for the past four months.

 The government had been pushing for an amnesty bill, or a  reconciliation bill, and the amendment of the constitution, all to  serve Thaksin's interests.

 "The network, therefore, condemns the government, Deputy Prime  Minister Chalerm Yubamrung, and Mr Surapong and asks them to stop  helping Thaksin," Dr Tul said.

----------


## StrontiumDog

^Up pops Tul, like the good little doggie he is.....

Surapong need to be hung out to dry for the lies/manipulation/deception he undertook for his relative...but why does it have to be Tul and his cronies? Their involvement sullies the whole thing.

----------


## crippen

Whilst you are all blathering on about the removal and return of his passport,and the why's,wherefores and wrongs and rights of all concerned,the world goes on and about it's business.  Totally unconcerned. ::chitown::

----------


## Calgary

The general consensus within the UDD/Red Shirts is that this Tul guy is a proxy for somebody.

So when he comes out with what he does, it is in fact somebody else considering it an issue.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Whilst you are all blathering on about the removal and return of his passport,and the why's,wherefores and wrongs and rights of all concerned,the world goes on and about it's business.  Totally unconcerned.


Indeed...and the sun is shining and it's a beautiful day. Think I might head out.

----------


## LooseBowels

Indeed, the world moves on, 

BBC News - Thai ex-PM Thaksin Shinawatra gets his passport back

----------


## Butterfly

indeed, another Thai criminal get away with everything

----------


## Bobcock

Rightly so, no one wants double standards....

----------


## Tom Sawyer

Nope - how many yellow shirts are in jail, charged, refused bail again? How many tyrants never had their passports taken away? How many days did Sarit lie in a (something) sponsored funeral? No Bobcock we can't have any double standards.

----------


## LooseBowels

> He said the regulation empowers the Foreign Ministry to cancel a passport if the person travels around and causes damage to Thailand


Oh isn't that nice.

And what's the regulation applied to persons inside thailand who cock the snoot and cause damage to thailand?
We all know who they are

----------


## Bobcock

> No Bobcock we can't have any double standards.


as I said, what were you objecting to?

----------


## Butterfly

indeed, if Thaksin had to go to jail, that would surely proof double standard, since nobody else go to jail here when caught stealing massive amount of money

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Bangkok Post : Reconciling a certainty_ Thaksin
*
*Reconciling a certainty_ Thaksin*

*Ex-PM says he's wary of 'merchants of conflict'* 
Published: 21/12/2011 at 12:00 AMNewspaper section: News
 Ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra has  predicted that national reconciliation will figure prominently in the  political picture next year but that "merchants of conflict" will do  their utmost to thwart peace efforts.

 Thaksin told the Bangkok Post in an exclusive phone interview from  Dubai that politics next year will enter a reconciliation mode with  compensation paid to victims of the political unrest.

 The charter amendment drive will press ahead to ensure  democratically-elected representatives of the people will not be toppled  so easily and that small independent organisations set up under the  present constitution will not wield too much power over others like in  the past, he said.

 Thaksin said a constitution must truly adhere to the principles of  democracy by emphasising the importance of those who are elected by the  people and the importance of checks and balances.

 He said the Thai Rak Thai, the People Power and Pheu Thai parties all won in past elections.

 In particular, the outcome of this year's election after the  political unrest last year, shows the people want reconciliation and for  the country to move forward, Thaksin said.

 He said the charter change drive, the push for legislation to bring  about national reconciliation and the compensation process should run in  parallel to achieve results more swiftly.

 If the three issues are dealt with one at a time, there could be  problems, he said. This is because there are certain elements with  political influence and holding key positions who do not want peace in  the country.

 These people will try to thwart peace efforts because they still want  to benefit from being the merchants of conflict in the country, Thaksin  said.

 He said the merchants of conflict include people holding important positions and some members of the media.

 Thaksin said if these people succeed in obstructing national reconciliation, political violence could ensue.

 Thaksin stressed the importance of the charter amendment move. He  said that in Thai culture, people tend to get around the rules and  regulations and some of them condone actions that violate the  constitution and support the overthrow of elected representatives of the  people.

 "After the [previous 1997] constitution was torn up, the new  constitution was drawn up and strewn with landmines. As a result, the  poor and the underprivileged always have to step on these mines. This is  the weak point of the [present] charter," Thaksin said.

 He insisted he has not and will not influence the present government  and parliament where the Pheu Thai Party commands a majority.

 He said he was only trying to point out problems as an observer who sees what the problems are.

 "Those who are not brutal and not self-centred had better get into reconciliation mode now," Thaksin said.

 Meanwhile, the Pheu Thai Party yesterday held a meeting to prepare  for the next House session which will begin today. The meeting was  attended by several key party MPs and the party's cabinet ministers.

 Pheu Thai spokesman Prompong Nopparit said after the meeting that  party members discussed charter amendment and many agreed with the  party's move to amend the constitution which was a key part of its  election campaign pledges.

 Mr Prompong said the party has not yet reached a decision on the  matter, although it agreed in principle that with the plan to amend  Section 291 to allow the set-up of a new constitution drafting assembly  (CDA).

 Details of the proposed amendments will be discussed later, probably after New Year, Mr Prompong said.

 Previously, Pheu Thai list MP and red shirt co-leader Weng Tojirakarn  said the party's legal team had completed a bill to amend Section 291.

 The provision allows only ministers and MPs to put forward proposed amendments to the charter, rather than a CDA.

 Under the proposed amendment, the CDA would comprise 97 members _ 77  elected from each of the existing provinces and 20 appointed academics.

 A Pheu Thai source said possible changes would be made to provisions  covering the dissolution of political parties and the five-year  political ban.

 The source also said some MPs in the dovish wing of the party  suggested it adopt as a model the famous PM's Office Order 66/23 issued  by the Prem Tinsulanonda government in 1980 to win over communist  insurgents by granting them a general amnesty.

 Then army chief Chavalit Yongchaiyudh was the chief architect of the  policy, which took a political approach to ending the communist threat  instead of a military one.

 As a result of that order, many insurgents turned themselves in which  eventually led to the end of the communist insurgency and peace bing  restored.

 But the source said a referendum should also be held for the public  to decide if they agree with the amnesty model based on the 66/23 order.

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ For those who are rather paranoid or just good old fashioned dumb as dirt, this is an interview with Thaksin. 

Okay, Calgary?

And it's in the Bangkok Post.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Bangkok Post : Thaksin 'not behind' Suu Kyi meeting
*
*Thaksin 'not behind' Suu Kyi meeting*
Published: 21/12/2011 at 11:04 AMOnline news:
 Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra on Wednesday  has rejected reports that her elder brother, fugitive former premier  Thaksin Shinawatra, helped pave way for a meeting between her and  Burma's pro-democracy leader Aung San Suu Kyi.

 "There are no conflicts of interest [between Thaksin and Burma]," Ms  Yingluck said after Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs chairman Kraisak  Choonhavan questioned whether the two leaders discussed business  issues.

Ms Yingluck and Ms Suu Kyi met for half an hour at the  Thai embassy in Rangoon yesterday evening. The meeting was Suu Kyi's  first ever audience with a head of a government in the region since her  release from house arrest about a year ago.

Thaksin earlier told  the Bangkok Post in an exclusive phone interview from Dubai that he  travelled to Burma last Thursday and met Burmese President Thein Sein  and former president Than Shwe to smooth the way for his youngest  sister's visit this week.

----------


## Calgary

Another Thaksin related headline from our lovable Bangkok Post.

Their paranoia overfloweth once again.

Actually a daily occurance, isn't it.

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ Well, he is in the news rather a lot Calgary, seeing as his sister is PM....and also due to the seemingly never ending moves being made by his cronies to return him to Thailand. So, yes, it is an almost daily occurrence. However, as to whose responsibility that is, well, you appear to be somewhat off-kilter in your appraisal shall we say.....

Would you prefer it if they didn't report news about him? You know, with some of this governments members having proven just how trustworthy they are of late.... :Smile: 

Personally I prefer to hear about what this bunch of snakes are up to, but each to their own. Ignorance is bliss, right Calgary?

----------


## Scaramanga

*Country will only reunite if the reds are disbanded, Abhisit says*

_Opposition leader Abhisit Vejjajiva said yesterday that he would work to bring all sides together provided there were no more red-shirt villages and the movement was dispersed.

"If the red-shirt movement does not come to an end, then the reconciliation cannot be achieved as per the 66/23 model," he said.

Pheu Thai MP Wattana Muangsuk, who is also deputy chairman of the House of Representatives committee on reconciliation, said earlier that his panel would study the 66/23 formula for reconciliation.

The 66/23 model was used by General Prem Tinsulanonda's government, which allowed communists to return to society and join a national development programme.

Abhisit said Kanit na Nakhon, chairman of the Truth for Reconciliation Committee of Thailand (TRCT), had said the definition of political prisoners should not include those who used weapons in political protests after the 2006 military coup.

General Sonthi Boonyaratglin, chairman of the House panel on reconciliation, said the committee had asked the Council of State to clarify the definition of political vocabulary as well as provide examples of amnesty being provided to political prisoners.

Committee spokesman Nakorn Machim said the King Prajadhipok Institute had agreed to research the steps that must be taken to bring about reconciliation, but would not draft legislation because that was the job of the Council of State.

In the past, amnesty has been granted to prisoners in cases related to national security, violators of the Communism Act, and students who participated in the 1973 Thammasat University uprising, he said. However, it was up to the public as to whether amnesty should be granted to political offenders, including those facing terrorism charges and violators of the emergency decree, rallies calling for basic rights and rights of expression as well as voting right revocation, Nakorn said.

Meanwhile, in reaction to TRCT's proposal that political detainees be kept away from common criminals, the Department of Corrections has started renovating a temporary prison in Bangkok's Lak Si district for the inmates, including detained red-shirt protesters.

However, Abhisit said it was clear nepotism if the centre was being prepared just so red-shirt detainees could be brought to the Lak Si prison from across the country.

Critics have also been saying that the temporary centre is being renovated to receive fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra if he returns to the country.

Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yoobamrung said yesterday that there was no way Thaksin would be detained at the Lak Si prison, and called on people to stop turning the renovation of the centre into a political issue.

He said he too was jailed when he joined a failed military coup against Prem's government, and his fellow detainees were communists or those waiting to be exiled.

"People who are turning this into a political issue don't know the history of the prison," Chalerm said. "In the first seven days of my detention, I was in solitary confinement and did not know whether it was day or night. Then I was moved to an ordinary cell. But I was still in jail."

Asked whether the renovation had anything to do with Thaksin, Chalerm said: "Nobody [of Thaksin's stature] will come. That's all."

When asked again if he meant Thaksin would not be detained if he returned to Thailand, Chalerm said: "I didn't say so. But don't wait, nobody will come."_
Abhisit shows his true colour    :kma: 


LINK

----------


## Scaramanga

> General Sonthi Boonyaratglin, chairman of the House panel on reconciliation, said the committee had asked the Council of State to clarify the definition of political vocabulary as well as provide examples of amnesty being provided to political prisoners.




A former Commander-in-Chief of the Thai Army who led the 2006 coup which removed an elected government of Thaksin Shinawatra chairs the house committee for reconciliation. 

That is just madness.

----------


## Scaramanga

> Well, he is in the news rather a lot Calgary, seeing as his sister is PM


He has always been in the news: Kasit the PAD could never let him go and neither can the Thai media or you SD 

 :Smile:

----------


## Calgary

There is a term for that.......*Quid pro quo*

You disband the Amart Abhi, and the Red Shirts will do likewise.

One makes about as much sense as the other.

When all is said and done, those are the two opposing forces.

So for a prominent figure in one, to suggest dismantling of the other, is laughable.

----------


## Butterfly

> which removed an illegally elected government of Thaksin Shinawatra


fixed,

----------


## Scaramanga

^

only in your tiny little world Butterfly

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Yingluck shruggs off Thaksin's role in Burma - The Nation
*
*Yingluck shruggs off Thaksin's role in Burma*

          December 21, 2011  10:46 am 

*Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra on Wednesday said  her government's image had not be tainted by her brother Thaksin  Shinawatra's deal making in Burma.*

"I don't think the government's reputation was tarnished," she said.

The Nation

----------


## Butterfly

> only in your tiny little world Butterfly


but he was illegally elected, no matter how much you want to ignore it

----------


## Bobcock

> Abhisit said Kanit na Nakhon, chairman of the Truth for Reconciliation Committee of Thailand (TRCT), had said the definition of political prisoners should not include those who used weapons in political protests after the 2006 military coup.


Be a few yellows at the airport and Government House who will carted off shortly then........ not

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer
> 
> No Bobcock we can't have any double standards.
> 
> 
> as I said, what were you objecting to?


None of the Yellow Shirts are in jail are they..

----------


## Thaihome

> Originally Posted by Bobcock
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer
> ...


 
I believe in December 2010, about 80 or so were sentenced to mostly 2 years for attacking NBT in 2008. I have heard the about 65 are still in jail.  I do wonder if they will be moved to the new "political jail" along with UDD rioters?

TH
Thai

----------


## Bobcock

> None of the Yellow Shirts are in jail are they..


No one of any real importance ever is..... I mean why do you think they let TS leave, because they just do not jail people like him, that was the deal brokered.

Basic rules of Amart Wars.

good news is now that the democratically elected and freedom fighter supporting Government of the red shirts elected by the red shirts for the red shirts is in place justice will be seen to be done and the little people (aka political prisoners) will be released won't they?

It's all good for reconciliation Sondhi style.....

----------


## baldrick

> the move would benefit Thailand


bigger pigs than takky will push to the trough for burmese mineral spoils - for all his dreams he will only be able to compete for the scraps




> I always used a carrot to deal with it,


like loans to purchase from shincorp ?

----------


## Mid

> Opposition leader Abhisit Vejjajiva said yesterday that he would work to bring all sides together provided there were no more red-shirt villages and the movement was dispersed.  
> 
> "If the red-shirt movement does not come to an end, then the reconciliation cannot be achieved as per the 66/23 model," he said.


well ain't that just peachy ......................not .

----------


## SteveCM

> Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Bobcock
> ...


Any confirmation that _any_ (other than maybe two who "confessed") actually made it to jail? Last I saw, those who had pleaded not guilty were given leave to appeal and granted bail:

_82 PAD members given jail for raid on NBT station - The Nation

December 31, 2010 

                 The court yesterday handed 82 members of the  People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) who invaded the state-run National  Broadcasting Services of Thailand (NBT) station in August 2008 to jail  sentences of up to two and a half years._  _

         Three minors who also joined the seizure of NBT, making the total number 85, were given two-year suspended sentences._ _

The  85 people,_  _all of whom have been released temporarily on bail, invaded  NBT in hopes of airing anti-government information on the state-run  channel in a bid to overthrow the government. Hours later, the move  failed because of technical difficulties.

The group, led by the  so-called Sri Vijaya Warriors allegedly under the command of PAD leader  Sondhi Limthongkul, were found guilty of undermining law and order,  assault, and trespassing on government property. Some organic drugs  similar to marijuana were also found on two of the defendants._ _

The  sentences vary depending of whether a member of the group carried  weapons or drugs or committed assaulted. Defendants No 39 and 80 were  fined Bt1,000 in addition of another penalty for possessing drugs. Two  defendants confessed and had their sentences halved. Most of the  offenders were given sentences of one and a half years, however._ *All the defendants are expected to fight in the Appeal Court, and will apply for bail.
*....

[my emphasis above]

Almost exactly a year ago - pretty much "yesterday" by the standards of Thai justice.....

----------


## Tom Sawyer

What do yout think?

----------


## SteveCM

^ I suspect the, ermmm.... process is still ongoing. No, that's aiming a bit high..... so "pending".

----------


## Butterfly

again, there is a difference between monkeys burning buildings and monkeys protesting and doing a raid on public properties

I understand you red supporters have a strange moral compass, but I can assure you that the red monkeys are better off in jail

----------


## baldrick

^ calgary is trying on his black shirt

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Thaksin Shinawatra: "I want to be part of the solution"  * 




         Uploaded by            BangkokPostOnline       on Dec 21, 2011        

_Former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra  discusses national reconciliation, Pheu Thai's economic strategy and  his thoughts on the past election in an interview with Post Today  editors in Brunei._

----------


## StrontiumDog

http://www.asianewsnet.net/home/news.php?id=25278&sec=3

*Amnesty will lead to repetition*

*Editorial Desk*
*The Nation*
Publication Date : 22-12-2011

There is a fugitive from the law who lives in the Burmese sector of the infamous Golden Triangle who, at one time, like former Thai PM Thaksin Shinawatra, held a Thai national identity card and probably a passport.

"Wei", also known as Prasit Cheewinnitipanya, was convicted of drug trafficking. He is one of the top commanders in the United Wa State Army (UWSA), possibly the world's largest armed drug trafficking gang, which produces heroin and methamphetamines.

Thaksin, on the other hand, was convicted on corruption charges and abuse of power. Like Wei, Thaksin fled the country. But unlike Wei, people flock to see Thaksin.

Only media people want to see Wei, but the Wa commander is camera shy, although his superior in the UWSA has granted several interviews over the years.

Like Thaksin, the UWSA is trying hard to be seen as legitimate, with legitimate grievances. Unlike Thaksin, the Wa don't have a Thai government to whitewash them. Perhaps if the UWSA chairman Bao Yuxiang got a sister elected as prime minister of Burma, things might be different for them.

The reason for bringing Wei into this debate is to provide a stark distinction between two criminal cases. One involved a leader of a drug army who will probably never be forgiven for his crime. The other is, of course, former prime minister Thaksin, one of the most divisive figures in Thai political history. He is loved by many and despised by many, and this latter fact was enough to throw a wrench into his plan to galvanise power and become a sort of a political emperor in a kingdom.

But instead of confronting Thaksin over his crimes, many of those who opposed him instead threw all sorts of accusations, fairly and unfairly, such as the claim that he was a threat to the monarchy. 

For all we know, he might have been. But many of his critics were too lazy. Coupled with an ineffective bureaucratic machine, they went for broke, upping the stakes by bringing the monarchy into the picture, even supporting the 2006 coup that ousted him. And now nobody knows how to come down from it all.

A group of lawyers think they have got the answer to it all and suggest that the clock be turned back to before the coup that removed Thaksin. They want to nullify all actions brought as a result of the military action. But what about the previous coup and the one before that? What about the damage and suffering Thaksin has inflicted on the country, both during his term and after it?

Punishing the coup leaders for their crime is not a bad idea, but if we were to take the lawyers' advice, there will probably be another coup. We have the law of the land and we need to make use of it. Our legal system may not be perfect, but it is our responsibility to make it better.

However, we have come to a complete circle, only without Thaksin, the politician who got the highest number of votes and therefore believed that justified all of his actions. Right now we have a Parliament dominated by Thaksin's supporters. His red-shirt supporters have nothing special to cry about other than the same grievances that the rest of the Thai people have - the incompetence of our bureaucrats and elected leaders, the overall quality of life and the difficulties in making a living.

But if we are going to move forward as a society and nation, as a people, we will have to hold on to something that can stand the test of time. That means all wrongdoers have to be punished - from those who took over Government House and then Suvarnabhumi Airport to the red-shirt leaders who broke up an East Asian Summit in Pattaya and burned down shopping malls and town halls across the country.

Unlike Wei, Thaksin has been given a new passport by the Thai Foreign Ministry. They issued it one day after the fugitive made the request. It's amazing how fast our bureaucrats can move if they really want to. Or have to.

Again there is this question over the legality of issuing a passport to a fugitive. With all those law degrees from universities abroad, the public still can't get a straight answer from politicians or bureaucrats about whether issuing Thaksin a passport is legal or illegal. Certainly, Commander Wei wouldn't mind getting one so easily.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Thaksin not a threat to Thailand: FM Surapong - The Nation
*
*Thaksin not a threat to Thailand: FM Surapong*

         The Nation December 22, 2011  1:39 pm 

*Foreign Minister Surapong Tovichakchaikul on  Thursday explained his decision to repeal the passport ban for fugitive  former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, saying he was justified to  reissue the passport because Thaksin was not a security threat.*

"I don't see Thaksin threatening the country, therefore I lifted the passport ban," he said.

Surapong was speaking in the question-and-answer session rebutting an  opposition's motion questioning his judgement on the Thaksin case.

He said his Democrat predecessor Kasit Piromya cited what he saw as  Thaksin's threatening activities as ground for the passport ban.

After assuming office, he detected no threats posed by Thaksin, prompting the ban repeal, he said.

The Consular Department subsequently reissued the passport for Thaksin via the Thai Embassy in Abu Dhabi, he said.

He insisted he had acted within his mandate as foreign minister. He  said the Democrat-led government made an unfair decision to deny Thaksin  his travel document.

"If Thaksin was a threat, then several people should have been fallen  under the same category but the previous government just discriminated  against him alone," he said.

He also said the Ministry of Foreign Affairs could not cancel the  passport just because Thaksin had outstanding arrest warrants.

Under relevant laws, the passport could be recalled only under a  combination of two factors - outstanding warrants and a formal ban on  travelling abroad issued by law enforcement agencies such as the courts,  the prosecutors and the police, he said.

In the Thaksin case, none of the agencies concered had banned his travel despite the arrest warrants issued, he said.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> http://www.asianewsnet.net/home/news.php?id=25278&sec=3
> 
> *Amnesty will lead to repetition*
> 
> *Editorial Desk*
> *The Nation*
> Publication Date : 22-12-2011
> 
> There is a fugitive from the law who lives in the Burmese sector of the infamous Golden Triangle who, at one time, like former Thai PM Thaksin Shinawatra, held a Thai national identity card and probably a passport.
> ...


So you actually* "Search"* for Thaksin stories?  http://www.asianewsnet.net/home/searchresult.php?sec=3&keysh=Thaksin

 :rofl:

----------


## SteveCM

*Thai trouble - FT.com

*Editorial

December 18, 2011


Thaksin  Shinawatra, the former Thai prime minister, has spent much of the past  two years in self- imposed exile dodging a prison sentence for  corruption. The last month, however, has been marked by growing speculation that the newly elected government led by his sister, Yingluck Shinawatra, is pushing for his return.

 Last week the foreign ministry admitted that, two years after it was rescinded, Mr Thaksin has been reissued with a Thai passport.  On one level this is little more than a symbolic gesture. Mr Thaksin  already has Montenegrin and Nicaraguan papers which enable him to travel  as he pleases. But coming after a spat in November over whether Mr  Thaksin would be included in the annual royal pardon of prisoners, it  has raised suspicions over the governments intentions.

 Ms Yingluck would be ill advised to engineer her brothers return.  Mr Thaksin is an intensely polarising figure, loved by Thailands rural  poor but detested by the army and the conservative elite. Last months  rumours of a pardon were enough to catapult protesters from both camps  on to the streets. If Mr Thaksin were to return, there is a serious risk  that the bitter ideological divisions that have scarred Thai politics  since his ousting in a 2006 coup would be reactivated.

 In truth, Ms Yingluck should have more important things to think  about. Her neophyte government faces a number of daunting challenges   not least the pressing need to root out the deeply entrenched corruption  that has long plagued Thailand. Giving special treatment to the  countrys most prominent fugitive would not be a good way to start.

 Ms Yinglucks biggest concern, however, should be reviving the  countrys economy after it was swamped by the worst floods in 50 years.  The October inundation killed more than 600 people, hit thousands of  factories and knocked about 1 percentage point off economic growth in  the third quarter. Ms Yinglucks government was widely criticised for  failing to co-ordinate adequately the response to the disaster. She  cannot afford to bungle management of the recovery as well.

 Even before the floods, the economic problems facing Thailand were  significant: poverty is rife in rural areas; inflation is a threat;  welfare policy is a mess. The challenges now are greater still. Rising  to them would be a good way for Ms Yingluck to boost her governments  standing. Bringing back Mr Thaksin would not.

*More*

*On this story* Thai government denies Thaksin return plan Thaksin vows not to interfere in Yinglucks rule Thais fearful of push to pardon Thaksin Thailand paves way for Thaksin rapprochement Thai parliament begins first post-election session*On this topic* Thai lese-majesty convictions stir debate on freedom Thaksin issued with Thai passport US citizen jailed for insulting Thai monarch Thai floods may force decline in PC market

----------


## SteveCM

*^
Unaddressed cause of Thailand scars - FT.com*

Letters

December 22, 2011

_From Mr Robert R. Amsterdam._

 Sir, Your newspaper’s editorial “Thai trouble”  (December 18) argues that Thailand’s government “would be ill advised”  to engineer the return of former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra. The  editorial surmises: “If Mr Thaksin were to return, there is a serious  risk that the bitter ideological divisions that have scarred Thai  politics since his ousting in a 2006 coup would be reactivated.”

Those  divisions have, in fact, never been deactivated. While the Thai people  now have a government of their own choosing, the root cause of such  divisions – the destruction of the rule of law – has yet to be  addressed.

 The generals who staged an illegal coup in 2006, interrupting 15  years of democratic rule, remain beyond the reach of the law, as do the  civilian and military officials responsible for the deaths of more than  80 protesters in 2010. Dr Thaksin, however, remains in exile due to his  refusal to serve an absurd sentence handed down by a court perceived as  being in the pocket of his sworn enemies.

 Contrary to the statement made in your editorial, Dr Thaksin was not  convicted of “corruption”. Rather, his sentence was based on the court’s  finding that he should not have allowed his wife to participate in an  auction of public land while he served as prime minister. No foreign  government has ever considered the sentence as anything other than  politically motivated, hence Interpol’s decision never to issue a “Red  Notice” for Dr Thaksin.

 As stated in your paper’s editorial, Dr Thaksin is indeed “detested  by the army and the conservative elite”. The editorial, however, did not  explain why it should be up to “the army and the conservative elite” to  decide on matters of policy and national reconciliation, considering  that the Thai electorate overwhelmingly endorsed Dr Thaksin’s return in  the July 2011 elections.

 The international community’s willingness to accept the legitimacy of  actions taken by the Thai establishment over the electorate’s wishes is  a crucial reason why the country finds itself in the midst of a  political crisis of this magnitude. Your paper’s exclusion of a  democratically elected leader from his country demonstrates the utter  failure to comprehend the fact that Thailand’s return to stability and  peace is predicated on the restoration of democracy and the rule of law.  “The army and the conservative elite” should no longer be permitted to  treat a country of 70m people as their own fiefdom.


*Robert R. Amsterdam, Counsel to Thaksin Shinawatra*

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ Yeah, thought about posting that, but changed my mind...it is so full of half-truths and borders on a creation of an alternate reality, that in the end I couldn't be bothered.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> 
> http://www.asianewsnet.net/home/news.php?id=25278&sec=3
> 
> *Amnesty will lead to repetition*
> 
> *Editorial Desk*
> *The Nation*
> ...


Sorry, but what the f*ck are you talking about?

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Chalerm denies charter amendments only meant for Thaksin - The Nation
*
*Chalerm denies charter amendments only meant for Thaksin*

         The Nation December 23, 2011  1:00 am 
 
*
A key government figure yesterday denied that the  ruling coalition's plan to amend the Constitution was aimed at  benefiting fugitive former premier Thaksin Shinawatra.*

Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yoobamrung, a heavyweight in the ruling  Pheu Thai Party, said he did not think people would tolerate it if the  amendment benefited just one person, as is feared by the opposition and  critics. 

"This constitutional amendment is for people across the country.  Different people may get different benefits, but I don't think the  public will be able to stand it if only one person benefits," Chalerm  said.

The veteran politician said he did not believe amending the  Constitution would shorten the government's life, adding that as long as  it was not involved in any irregularities, it should be able to  complete its four-year term. "If the government is corrupt, it won't be  able to stay on," he said.

Chalerm went on to explain that it was his party's policy to amend  certain clauses, especially "dictatorial" ones like Article 309. The  clause reads: "All acts are recognised in Thailand's Interim  Constitution of 2006 as lawful and constitutional, including acts  incidental thereto whether performed prior to or subsequent to the date  of the promulgation of this Constitution, shall be deemed constitutional  under this Constitution".

To many observers, this clause is aimed at protecting the makers of the  2006 coup from legal action. Many critics also warn that removing the  clause could undermine the legal cases against Thaksin.

Yesterday, Chalerm also dismissed concerns that ruling politicians  would influence the amendment by making its trusted people members of  the new charter drafting committee. He said the committee members would  be elected and that the government would possibly not be able to control  the charter drafters. 

Regarding the ongoing debate on the pros and cons of amending Article  112 of the Penal Code, which is related to lese majeste, Chalerm said he  believed this government was "smart enough to not amend the clause".

"This government will heed the majority of the people before doing anything," he added.

Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra, Thaksin's youngest sister, said  yesterday that charter amendments were an issue involving the Parliament  and that her government had not done anything about it. 

"This government will focus on helping people suffering from the recent  floods," she said, as she walked away ignoring questions related to  constitutional amendments.

House Speaker Somsak Kiartsuranond, who also hails from the ruling Pheu  Thai Party, said yesterday that the party had not made any resolutions  about amending the charter. "We support the idea in princible and will  look into the matter after the New Year," he said. 

Somsak, however, declined to say if Thaksin would benefit directly from  the charter changes. "Let's leave him out of this matter and amend the  Constitution by adhering to democratic principles," he said.

Meanwhile, opposition chief whip Jurin Laksanavisit yesterday called on  the government to publicly clarify what points in the Constitution it  found problematic and how they should be amended. He also expressed  concern that the new drafting committee would consist of the government  insiders. 

Jurin, a key Democrat, said that his party's stance against amending  Article 309 remained unchanged. "We agree that amending the clause does  not benefit the public as a whole," he said, adding that he was  convinced that the ultimate goal was to "solve the problems of just one  person".

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Bangkok Post : Democrats continue to question the govt's motives
*
*Democrats continue to question the govt's motives*
Published: 23/12/2011 at 12:00 AMNewspaper section: News
 The Democrat Party believes the ruling Pheu Thai  Party plans to exert influence over the planned constitution drafting  assembly to benefit ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra.

 A source on the Democrat Party's legal team yesterday said Pheu Thai is trying to help Thaksin by amending the constitution.

 Pheu Thai plans to amend Section 291 to set up a CDA and will submit a charter amendment bill to parliament after the New Year.

 The proposed CDA would comprise 97 members _ 77 elected from each province and 20 appointed academics.

 The source said because the majority of provinces are in the Pheu  Thai strongholds in the North and Northeast, the CDA would likely be  dominated by government supporters.

 The source said that meant Pheu Thai would be able to dominate the  CDA, and there was little doubt Thaksin would benefit from this.

 Pheu Thai also plans to remove Section 309 of the constitution, which  insulates the 2006 coup makers from prosecution and legitimises their  actions. The section endorses the investigation of corruption cases  against Thaksin and his government by the Assets Scrutiny Committee  (ASC) set up by the coup-makers.

 Scrapping the provision would invalidate the actions and decisions taken by the now-defunct ASC.

 Democrat list MP and opposition chief whip Jurin Laksanavisit  yesterday said the party opposed any amendment to Section 309. The  change would not benefit the public, but would favour only one person.

 Democrat and opposition leader Abhisit Vejjajiva said the  constitution can be amended so long as it does not create new conflicts  in society. "If the changes improve the system then there wouldn't be a  problem, but I disagree with an amnesty plan as it could create more  conflict in the country," he said.

 Supachai Jaisamut, spokesman for the opposition Bhumjaithai Party,  said the government should wait for the reconciliation road map from the  special parliamentary committee on national reconciliation before going  ahead with the charter change.

----------


## tomta

> Yeah, thought about posting that, but changed my mind...it is so full of half-truths and borders on a creation of an alternate reality, that in the end I couldn't be bothered.



Precisely what are these half-truths and the alternate reality of the article?  A detailed critique would be appreciated.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> ^ Yeah, thought about posting that, but changed my mind...it is so full of half-truths and borders on a creation of an alternate reality, that in the end I couldn't be bothered.


Yeah, sure.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> Yeah, thought about posting that, but changed my mind...it is so full of half-truths and borders on a creation of an alternate reality, that in the end I couldn't be bothered.
> 
> 
> 
> Precisely what are these half-truths and the alternate reality of the article?  A detailed critique would be appreciated.


Really? So you want me to spend my time and energy, producing what would be a very lengthy post, about Amsterdam's diatribe, for you? Anyone else? What would be the point...? It wont change anyone's opinion. Some here are too stupid to remember what I've written in the past, so they are hardly going to benefit from a critical analysis of Amsterdam's piece.

But...here's a little bit for you to chew on, as I'm feeling generous today. And yes, I know what kind of reaction I will get. 

He oddly ignores previous instances in history, such as 1992 and 1976, or any other instances of coup, but focuses solely on 2006...do you know why? Can you work it out? (Hint, his employer).

He cites the one charge where Thaksin was found guilty, but never mentions the other outstanding court cases pending against him. One of which was the satellite deal with Burma....(must suck to claim you are big on human rights, when your client has/had dealings with North Korea and Burma...and lets not even get into Hun Sen). 

This is a personal favourite...

"_Thai electorate overwhelmingly endorsed Dr Thaksins return in  the July 2011 elections._"

So, not the minimum wage, the tablet PC's, the promised healthcare and any of the other policies....or even for Yingluck as Prime Minister. But actually, the people were just there to "overwhelmingly" endorse Dr Thaksin's return. Nice.

Well, he is a lawyer.

----------


## Scaramanga

> ^ Yeah, thought about posting that, but changed my mind...it is so full of half-truths and borders on a creation of an alternate reality




unlike the usual stuff you post    :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> 
> ^ Yeah, thought about posting that, but changed my mind...it is so full of half-truths and borders on a creation of an alternate reality, that in the end I couldn't be bothered.
> 
> 
> Yeah, sure.


Indeed, here is my Tweet, note the time, 23 hours ago, long before Steve posted it here. 

Your signature says your "mind is not for rent", but have you ever considered a trade-in (you wouldn't be able to get a straight like-for-like deal, too much damage to the one you are barely using at the moment  :Smile: ). 

StrontiumDog1   StrontiumDog                                                   

_Unaddressed cause of Thailand’s scars -Financial Times on.ft.com/utIiHw (Robert Amsterdam letter, dealing out half-truths as usual)_

   23 hours ago

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> ^ Yeah, thought about posting that, but changed my mind...it is so full of half-truths and borders on a creation of an alternate reality
> 
> 
> 
> 
> unlike the usual stuff you post


Oh, Tom and GJBKK, I am lucky. 

While the journalists here may be biased and one is forced to sort the wheat from the chaff, I am sure as a journalist, of sorts, you can appreciate how reliable lawyers words are...right? How only a fool would swallow the well spun lines a lawyer weaves for his client?

But of course, it is nice to see the usual Pavlovian response from you when dear Robert's words are questioned, that he produces for his boss. 

I wonder how he reconciles working for Thaksin, someone who said that Putin is his very good friend, and all the while also working for Mikhail Khodorkovsky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

----------


## StrontiumDog

TAN_Network   TAN News Network                                                   

_DSI chief Tharit says arrest warrant for Thaksin cannot be canceled as cases have been sent to prosecutor

-----
More on this from Bangkok Post

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingn...g-thaksin-file

_ *DSI denies erasing Thaksin file*
Published: 23/12/2011 at 11:37 AMOnline news:
 The Department of Special Investigation did not  erase from its database a warrant issued for former prime minister  Thaksin Shinawatra's arrest on terrorism charges as claimed by the  opposition Democrat Party, DSI director general Tharit Pengdit said  Friday.

 _
Department of Special Investigation director general Tharit Pengdit(File Photo)_

 "We cannot erase the warrant as the case has already been sent to the attorney general," Mr Tharit said.

He said the claim was just a rumour but refused to comment whether it was aimed at discrediting the DSI.

Yesterday,  Democrat legal team member Wirat Kalayasiri said the party found in its  investigation that the DSI had removed the fugitive former premier's  arrest warrant under the pretext of improving its computer system.

----------


## Pol the Pot

> ...
> 
> He cites the one charge where Thaksin was found guilty, but never mentions the other outstanding court cases pending against him. One of which was the satellite deal with Burma....(must suck to claim you are big on human rights, when your client has/had dealings with North Korea and Burma...and lets not even get into Hun Sen). 
> 
> ...


You keep mentioning Hun Sen in one breath with the North Korean and Burmese government. Do you actually believe there are more than just glancing similarities? What's wrong with Hun Sen? He's ex KR, so?

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by SteveCM

Thai trouble - FT.com


*_




 Originally Posted by SteveCM

Last week the foreign ministry admitted that, two years after it was rescinded, Mr Thaksin has been reissued with a Thai passport


_Do we need further proof than this article, that the foreign media quotes and propagates Thai media propaganda.

Here is ample proof, of why it was like speaking to PADites, when visiting relatives and friends in Europe recently.

The above even uses the identical Amart propagandistic term of "Admitting", when quoting a statement by a Ms. Y. official. 

As if it is exposing guilt by that official
*




 Originally Posted by SteveCM

Ms Yingluck would be ill advised to engineer her brothers return. Mr Thaksin is an intensely polarising figure,


*The Red Shirt leadership here are no great fans of Thaksin, but a polarizing figure he is not.

If there is a bi-polar circumstance, it is the electoral minority vs. the electoral majority.

That is what elections are designed to sort out......either affirm one perspective, or replace it with the one reflecting the will of the electoral majority.

Not complicated.
*




 Originally Posted by SteveCM

In truth, Ms Yingluck should have more important things to think about


**




 Originally Posted by SteveCM

 Ms Yinglucks government was widely criticised for failing to co-ordinate adequately the response to the disaster.


**




 Originally Posted by SteveCM

 She cannot afford to bungle management of the recovery as well.


**




 Originally Posted by SteveCM

The challenges now are greater still. Rising to them would be a good way for Ms Yingluck to boost her governments standing. Bringing back Mr Thaksin would not.


*All of the above verbatum mantra from the Post/Nation propagandist Media.

But these foreign journalists can get away with such lazy copying or paraphrasing.

Their home audiences don't know the difference or care.

They have political problems of their own.

----------


## SteveCM

^^^^ As Thaksin's "very good friend"-ship with Putin is raised so often, here - without commenting on it - is some useful state as well as personal context for it (PDF file of Wikileaks cable):

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...49uYX3VURDZv8w

----------


## Calgary

*^**Quote from above noted* PDF file of Wikileaks cable
_".......former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra's outward-looking_ _administration (2001-06), with Thaksin pursuing possible arms purchases from Russia in_ _barter deals to boost Thai exports of agricultural products and to lessen Thai military_ _dependence on U.S. systems._ 

_However, since Thaksin's ouster in a bloodless coup in 2006,_ _Thailand has primarily been inwardly focused._This factoid is often quoted by the UDD/RS, as being a very significant Thaksin initiative, bartering Thai rice and other homegrown exports, economically advantaging many.

These economic initiatives died after the Amart putsch.

This has been used as an example of how the Amart are unconcerned about the plight of producers, who in turn cast their votes accordingly.

----------


## baldrick

> other homegrown exports,


C.P. chickens  ?

----------


## SteveCM

^^ & ^^^ On reflection, I _will_ comment on it. On the state aspect, my take is that it suggests PM Thaksin (i.e. 2001-6) exploiting Russian eagerness to get a better foothold in SE Asia - hence his attempts to achieve what would be a win-win for Russia & Thailand. As per the part Calgary cites, such a closening of ties would also inevitably reduce dependence on the US - and/or at least prompt them to "woo" Thailand more..... "sweetheart deals", enhanced "amity" etc.

Post-coup, that process seems to have all but frozen - with Thailand reverting to its more familiar decades-long almost "client state" relationship with the US. On the personal level, whatever one thinks of Putin the near-autocratic ruler, it seems unsurprising that Thaksin would welcome and want to exploit such a powerful figure's continuing at least tacit support. On Putin's side, it doesn't seem too much to see a political calculation that staying "in" with Thaksin is likely to prove beneficial - not least the prospect of at some point being able to pick up where things had (been?) stopped in September 2006.

Once again, that's _realpolitik_ - not pretty but decidedly pragmatic. I daresay Thaksin the man/politician also envies Putin's plainly powerful position - nor would it be likely he'd be indifferent to Putin's reputed power-plays with the Russian oligarchs and state power-brokers..... arrangements which it's suggested again just recently have benefited Putin very much materially as well as politically.

Again, none of this is pretty - but neither in the real world should it be seen as surprising or even remarkable. Nor is it particularly helpful to describe it solely in terms reminiscent of just warm admiration/friendship without cold, pragmatic mutual self-interest.

----------


## Butterfly

^ gee, thanks for the comments Stevie, I guess we couldn't have figured it ourselves 

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## StrontiumDog

> ^^^^ As Thaksin's "very good friend"-ship with Putin is raised so often, here - without commenting on it - is some useful state as well as personal context for it (PDF file of Wikileaks cable):
> 
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...49uYX3VURDZv8w


Cool, but surely Thaksin's own words are sufficient Steve....from an interview you posted....




> *SPIEGEL Interview with Thaksin Shinawatra: 'Thailand Must Be United Again' - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International
> 
> **06/15/2011*
> *
> Thaksin:* "_I also travel to  Russia very often to meet my old friend,  Prime Minister Vladimir Putin.  When I'm on the plane, I go on Skype  and organize my business._"

----------


## tomta

> ^ Unaddressed cause of Thailand scars - FT.com Letters December 22, 2011
>  From Mr Robert R. Amsterdam. 
> 
> Sir, 
> 1.Your newspaper’s editorial “Thai trouble” (December 18) argues that Thailand’s government “would be ill advised” to engineer the return of former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra. 
> 
> 2.The editorial surmises: “If Mr Thaksin were to return, there is a serious risk that the bitter ideological divisions that have scarred Thai politics since his ousting in a 2006 coup would be reactivated.” 
> 
> 3.Those divisions have, in fact, never been deactivated. 
> ...


Since you won't do the analysis of what Amsterdam is saying, Strontium Dog,  but simply put him down as a minion of the evil one, I'll have a go at the job and maybe you might reply to my questions/analysis.

Sentence One and Two: Necessary context. But also a reasonable warning. They would be ill-advised because it has been clearly demonstrated that the army and other elements of thai society are prepared to deny the express wishes of the Thai people. 

You say that the Thai people voted for all sorts of other things , SD, and I'm sure they did but I think in a lot of your posts you quoted this "Thaksin thinks, Pheaua Thai acts". That idea seems to have been welcomed by the majority of the electorate. Personally, I thought it was a shocker but there you go. I thought it was as bad as you did. Democracy doesn't always work perfectly for me  either.

Sentence Three: Yes, seems right, the ideological divisions  continue to exist.

  Sentence Four: Yes , from either side of the equation, the destruction of the rule of law has not been addressed. You mention yourself, SD, that the bigger charges that we were led to believe were being prepared against Thaksin - massive corruption, Tak Bai etc - that the military government and the PAD  justified the coup with are still not ready. They had an army government  and a compliant Democrat government for four years to do this. I don't thyink Abhisit's government was actively pursuing them at alll.



Still no charges on these serious matters. Just a minor property matter.

  Yes, he’s also correct about the coup generals not having been charged.

You say in a previous post, SD that "He [Robert Amsterdam] oddly ignores previous instances in history, such as 1992 and 1976,  or any other instances of coup, but focuses solely on 2006...do you know  why? Can you work it out? (Hint, his employer)."

I don't think that's at all odd.

It would be a serious flaw in a book length study of tody's situation but not in a 2-300 word reply to a published article. We could say that Amsterdam is talking about the "proximate root" causes rather than the "ultimate root" causes. Just how far would you like someone to go in 200 words? Human nature, social anthropology, evolutionary psychology, the Big Bang?

Do you not think that it would be natural for his employer to be most interested in the coup that deposed him rather than in the many, many other coups? Would he not want his employee to talk about that coup mostly? If i was hauled up before the bench, i'd want my lawyer to talk about the things I was accused of, not the broad sweep of history interesting as it might be.

  Sentence five: True

Sentence Six: Arguable, some like myself would say it’s an absurd sentence, others  would say that it is a legitimate decision of the well respected Thai  judicial system whose judgements are so perfect that the law ensures  they cannot be criticized. (Sorry, cannot resist the opportunity for  sarcasm). 

Sentences Seven and Eight: True

Sentence Nine: Certainly true that, despite the Democrat propaganda, Interpol has never been chasing Thaksin and no foreign government that I know of has publicly and explicitly condemned him. Implicitly, perhaps the UK and US did condemn by not allowing him in to their countries. But not explicitly. 

  Sentence Ten: Certainly true for the most part, although perhaps not by all of the army and all of the conservative elite.

Sentence Eleven: True

Sentence Twelve: Arguable and somewhat in contradiction with Sentence Nine.

Sentence Thirteen: Arguable: We could replace the words “utter failure” with “partial” . “misguided” “regrettable” , "ignorant", "unthinking". etc. Utter is harsh.

  Sentence Fourteen: Well, here is the crux: Should the army and the conservative elite be permitted to treat the country as their fiefdom. Should, for instance, General Prayuth be the arbiter of what laws may or may not be discussed or amended as he so often seems to assume that he is? Should General Prem?

Well, for a couple of hundred words in reply to an article which is seriously flawed, this seems to me a pretty reasonable, albeit partisan response. I don't see it as an "alternate reality". You could choose to see half-truths there but only because in 200-300 words, it is impossible to mention everything. 

Over to you, SD.

----------


## mao say dung

> I wonder how he reconciles working for Thaksin, someone who said that Putin is his very good friend, and all the while also working for Mikhail Khodorkovsky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


We seem to be doing the impossible! Uncovering a new wrinkle in the tired and worn THAKSIN IS BAD thought-substitute!!!

Now he's bad because he calls Putin his "old friend". 

Oh, the evil, evil bastard!

----------


## SteveCM

> Originally Posted by SteveCM
> 
> 
> ^^^^ As Thaksin's "very good friend"-ship with Putin is raised so often, here - without commenting on it - is some useful state as well as personal context for it (PDF file of Wikileaks cable):
> 
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...49uYX3VURDZv8w
> 
> 
> Cool, but surely Thaksin's own words are sufficient Steve....from an interview you posted....
> ...


No surprise here. After all..... 


> ...
> I know all I need to know about Thaksin.
> ...


That now appears to make two members who find my post #3129 surplus to requirements.

----------


## Buksida

> Originally Posted by Calgary
> 
> other homegrown exports,
> 
> 
> C.P. chickens  ?


I remember something about an attempted chickens for arms trade off. Wasn't it with Swedes for their jet fighters? They wouldn't have a bar of it. This was around the time the govt was trying to cover  the bird flu epidemic.

----------


## StrontiumDog

^^ and ^^^ Oh dear, oh dear.......

Must jump to Thaksin's defense.....must jump to Thaksin's defense.....good little doggies, the both of you.

----------


## noelbino

> ^ Yeah, thought about posting that, but changed my mind...it is so full of half-truths and borders on a creation of an alternate reality, that in the end I couldn't be bothered.


Yeah. me neither.
But I suppose he has to come up with a load of shit every now and then to justify his fees.

----------


## Calgary

Post cancelled by self.

On second thought, it would just invite a stream of propagandized, Amart media generated, anti-Thaksin regurgitation.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Post cancelled by self.
> 
> On second thought, it would just invite a stream of propagandized, Amart media generated, anti-Thaksin regurgitation.


As opposed to "a stream of propagandized, Thaksin media generated, pro-Thaksin regurgitation", which is your usual fodder.

----------


## Gerbil

> Post cancelled by self.
> 
> On second thought, it would just invite a stream of propagandized, Amart media generated, anti-Thaksin regurgitation.


Yep. We'd much rather have a stream of propagandized, Paranoia generated, pro UDD, anti free speech regurgitation - i.e. see all of your posts from #1 to #1811.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

^ Bugger, you got there before me.  :Smile:

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by noelbino

But I suppose he has to come up with a load of shit every now and then to justify his fees.


*

Contrary to this scatter-gun, no content statement, I would encourage those who have not done so, to read Post #3112 above and draw your own conclusions.

----------


## mao say dung

> Must jump to Thaksin's defense.....must jump to Thaksin's defense.....good little doggies, the both of you.


Hardly... just pointing out what a boring, repetitive, and ultimately witless drone you are. 

How about we try a little experiment: in future discussions of Thai political developments, we shall stipulate that THAKSIN IS/WAS BAD. That is to say, that everyone agrees that THAKSIN IS/WAS BAD.

This would mean, for example, that when someone initiates a discussion of Amsterdam's latest release, we must accept that everyone knows he works for Thaksin, so calling him "Thaksin's shill" and then going on to give yet another instance of THAKSIN IS/WAS BAD is saying absolutely nothing about the points made in Amsterdam's piece.

Do you think you could accept such grievous limits to the field of discussion? I would hope so. It might actually stimulate you to think a little rather than churn out yet another mechanical riff on THAKSIN IS/WAS BAD.

Of course there is always the possibility that nothing but deafening silence would be the outcome; and that's highly unlikely, given the immature satisfaction achieved by voicing yet again the neurotic hatred you boys all feel for the man and the Thais who vote for his proxies.

----------


## tomta

SD, I wonder if you could have a look at my post 3132. I'd like to know if I'm just one of the doggies or if there might be  a couple of reasonable points made. It's addressed to you and it took me some time.

----------


## SteveCM

^ Don't hold your breath.

Yawnnnn..... Same old, same old - sneer'n'smear. Anyone want to point out just what in #'s 3126, 3129 and 3134 constitutes a _"jump to Thaksin's defence"_? One really has to wonder sometimes just what the concern about context is.

----------


## tomta

> Quote: Originally Posted by StrontiumDog I wonder how he reconciles working for Thaksin, someone who said that Putin is his very good friend, and all the while also working for Mikhail Khodorkovsky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Perhaps, because, despite being counsel for Thaksin, he retains the capacity for independent thought.

His thoughts on Lese majeste and the redshirts and the prosecution of those responsible for the deaths of 2010 and the nature of reconciliation certainly diverge strongly from Thaksin's clearly inadequate "forget and forgive" approach. Amsterdam also talks about himself quite consistently now as being a representative of the redshirts not just Thaksin.

I've worked for many people in my life. It has never meant that I supported and defended them unconditionally.

----------


## Gerbil

^ If my lawyer (counsel) didn't 'support and defend me unconditionally', he'd be replaced in an instant.

Amsterdam is Thaksin's mouthpiece, that is it. It may suit Thaksin at the moment to have him say some things that may seem to contradict some of Thaksin's statements, but that is purely strategic of course.

----------


## tomta

> Amsterdam is Thaksin's mouthpiece, that is it. It may suit Thaksin at the moment to have him say some things that may seem to contradict some of Thaksin's statements, but that is purely strategic of course.


Can you let me know, Gerbil, the next time that Amsterdam contradicts one of Thaksin's statements whether this is an actual contradiction or just a strategic move?

I haven't yet got your psychological insight  but I'd like to know how it's done.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> SD, I wonder if you could have a look at my post 3132. I'd like to know if I'm just one of the doggies or if there might be  a couple of reasonable points made. It's addressed to you and it took me some time.


It's a good post, if I get time I'll try to post a long reply. Rather busy of late, social life has taken over for the time being. However, I appreciate you writing it and I have read it. 

Please ignore SteveCM. He is rapidly turning into my stalker....the snide trolling never ends.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> ^ Don't hold your breath.
> 
> Yawnnnn..... Same old, same old - sneer'n'smear. Anyone want to point out just what in #'s 3126, 3129 and 3134 constitutes a _"jump to Thaksin's defence"_? One really has to wonder sometimes just what the concern about context is.


How ironic, this from a man who ignores 99% of my replies to him, never ever has anything positive to say about any of my posts (I've praised many of yours), remains silent when I am accused of things he knows aren't true or unfair (such as Mid's tweet rants), delivers sniping attacks at me which are always personal and never about the topic/news, and has never greened me. 

You should read up on some psychology sometime Steve....

However, I'll give you this bit for free. 

People usually tend to react/respond to things that have meaning and interest to them. If you have no interest in it, or it has no meaning to you, you will be highly unlikely to respond/react to it. 

I'm not into ballet, so if someone were to write a piece criticising some ballet dancer, I'd be unlikely to respond to it or have any comment upon it. No interest and no meaning. 

Now, why would you have developed this highly irrational dislike of me, and feel the never-ending need to attack me at every given opportunity, especially when I dare to question or criticize those you feel aligned with/to (hint, both parts of this are also linked...). See if you can join the dots...

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by Strontium Dog
> 
> Quote: Originally Posted by StrontiumDog I wonder how he reconciles working for Thaksin, someone who said that Putin is his very good friend, and all the while also working for Mikhail Khodorkovsky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> Perhaps, because, despite being counsel for Thaksin, he retains the capacity for independent thought.
> 
> His thoughts on Lese majeste and the redshirts and the prosecution of those responsible for the deaths of 2010 and the nature of reconciliation certainly diverge strongly from Thaksin's clearly inadequate "forget and forgive" approach. Amsterdam also talks about himself quite consistently now as being a representative of the redshirts not just Thaksin.
> 
> I've worked for many people in my life. It has never meant that I supported and defended them unconditionally.


He's a lawyer.

That's all you need to do know. 

And actually, his statements don't contradict Thaksin's at all. Think about it....or maybe there are things you don't know about. This is all part of the game....

----------


## tomta

> Think about it....or maybe there are things you don't know about.


Yes, I'm thinking about it... and yes there are things I don't know about.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Bangkok Post : Abhisit: Thaksin was legally convicted
*
*Abhisit: Thaksin was legally convicted*
Published: 26/12/2011 at 02:47 PMOnline news:
 Opposition leader Abhisit Vejjajiva has repeated  his opposition to any move amend the 2007 constitution to give amnesty  to convicted former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

 Mr Abhisit, the Democrat Party leader, said on Monday that although  the Thaksin Shinawatra government had been toppled by the Sept 19, 2006  military coup  and later prosecuted for corruption,  the verdicts  were  delivered by the court, not by any organisation set up by the coup  makers.

 He said the Assets Scrutiny Committee that the coup council  established had only gathered information on alleged corruption for  presentation through the judicial system. The verdicts were decided by  the court.

 Mr Abhisit said there were moves to change Section 309 of the present  constitution to nullify the consequences of the coup d'etat, but he  thought that the section was provisional and actions relating to the  coup had been finalised.

 He said the 2007 constitution was also a consequence from that coup  and if the present government did not accept the present charter, the  status of the government would also be in doubt because the government  was a consequence of the same charter.

 Election Commissioner Sodsri Sadtayathum said on Monday that constitutional amendment should go to a referendum.

 Former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra was convicted of abusing his  authority as the prime minister to help his ex-wife buy state-owned  land in Bangkok in 2003. The Supreme Court sentenced him to two years in  jail, but he had left the country shortly before it was delivered. The  verdict bars him from returning as prime minister.

 He also faces other charges, which have not been pressed in his absence.

----------


## Calgary

*^*
*




 Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Bangkok Post : Abhisit: Thaksin was legally convicted


*_




 Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

 the verdicts were delivered by the court, not by any organisation set up by the coup makers.


_Yeah right.

I wonder if anyone was watching his face to see if it was straight.

I'm sure the PADites are convinced.

----------


## tsicar

poor, sick little narrow minded people.

that the fact that the constitution needs to be changed is attributed solely to the desire to get amnesty for thaksin alone just shows what a bunch of childish little wankers these people are.

if thaksin benefits from a constitutional change, then so be it:
there will be many others who will benefit too, plus a few losers (like the bunch who think they can get away with pulling a coup and then changing the constitution to provide immunity for themselves)

there are far more issues at stake here than thaksin, and i doubt that all or any of this is about him at all.

at the end of the day, the coup leaders got away with their little number on the promise that within three months they would provide proof that the thaksin regime was so corrupt that it desperately needed to be removed (anybody remember that?- the tv was full of it at the time)
just how long did it take them to come up with instead, some piss-weak minor technicality like the fact that thaksin's wife won a bid for land on a PUBLIC auction, as justification for the coup.
does anybody not think perhaps, that if thaksin was up to the kind of shit/corruption /whatever that was alledged to be justification for the removal of his democratically elected government , that the coup leaders could have come up with something perhaps a little more convincing than they eventually managed to muster?

i hope they change the constitution and then execute anybody who was involved in the coup, if not only to serve justice, then to serve as a warning to anybody considering taking part in a future coup

----------


## Bobcock

The Thaksin conviction always amuses me....

It's a classic example of Rule By Law as opposed to the correct Rule Of law.

I mean, does anyone really doubt that he was guilty of the charge? Of course not.

But, why not go after him for his biggest abuses? There was more than enough of them, if I know people who were directly involved I'm damn sure the powers that be (of the particular day) know. 

But...... that's not the Thai way of doing things, highlighting the bigger crimes may return to bite one in the ass.

Why let him run? That's not the Thai way of doing things, jailing him might just return to bite one in the ass.

At the end of the day, they got their turn at the trough, Thaksin accepts that and was happy to leave. But he will be back, he has power now, who knows it may even take over leadership, but will he be executing coup leaders as suggested above???

Don't make me laugh, of course not, heaven forbid......if he ever puts them near a court, they in turn will be allowed to travel overseas for some to be agreed reason and it'll be their turn to look in from the outside. 

The biggest thing Suthep would ever be charged with would be having an undisclosed meeting in HK with Cambodia, the biggest thing for Sonthi B would be parking tanks on a double yellow line.

That is the Thai way of doing things.

----------


## Butterfly

I love dreamers like the red loons,

they should focus on the real economic injustice instead of pretending to care about Democracy, which they don't give a fuck when it doesn't go the way they want it

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> Some here are too stupid to remember what I've written in the past,


Those few words of yours summarise everything anyone needs to know about you.

----------


## tomta

> Quote: Originally Posted by StrontiumDog Think about it....or maybe there are things you don't know about. Yes, I'm thinking about it... and yes there are things I don't know about.


Please tell me, SD - i'm wiating with bated breath. And while you're at it you might reply to my analysis of that Robert Amsterdam piece you thought was full of half-truths and misinformation.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> 
>  
> Some here are too stupid to remember what I've written in the past, 
> 
> 
> 
> Those few words of yours summarise everything anyone needs to know about you.


Indeed mate, agree. I don't suffer fools....

Speaking of which...

I remember most of what you've written. Except the constant insults that you kindly send my way regularly...those I have forgotten.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> poor, sick little narrow minded people.
> 
> that the fact that the constitution needs to be changed is attributed solely to the desire to get amnesty for thaksin alone just shows what a bunch of childish little wankers these people are.
> 
> if thaksin benefits from a constitutional change, then so be it:
> there will be many others who will benefit too, plus a few losers (like the bunch who think they can get away with pulling a coup and then changing the constitution to provide immunity for themselves)
> 
> there are far more issues at stake here than thaksin, and i doubt that all or any of this is about him at all.
> 
> ...


Here's a list of the outstanding cases against Thaksin, that have been on hold while he has been away.....nothing a few pastry boxes can't solve....

The state of the cases against Thaksin - The Nation

*l Illegal issue of two- and three-digit lotteries*

_The Supreme Court's Criminal Division for political office holders  has suspended the case, as former premier Thaksin Shinawatra is a  fugitive. In 2009, former finance minister Warathep Ratanakorn, former  permanent secretary of finance Somjainuk Engtrakul and former Government  Lottery Office director Chaiwat Phasokphakdee were sentenced to two  years' jail each, but were placed on two years probation. Other  suspects, including some then-cabinet members, were found innocent._
*
l Abuse of power in approving an Exim Bank loan to Burma*  

_Thaksin  was alleged to have abused his power as the loan could benefit his  family's business, Shin Corp. The Supreme Court's Criminal Division for  political office holders has suspended the case because Thaksin is a  fugitive._

*l Illegal changing of telecommunication concession fees into excise tax*

_The change allegedly benefited Shin Corp and caused a Bt66-billion loss to the country._ 

_The National Anti-Corruption Commission and the attorney-general are working together on the case._

*l Case of terrorism against Thaksin*

_The  Department of Special Investigation submitted the case linking Thaksin  to red shirts charged with terrorism related to last year's political  turmoil. The case is now before the Criminal Court._

*l Malfeasance related to the CTX 9000 bomb scanner scandal*

_The  National Anti-Corruption Commission is investigating the malfeasance  case against Thaksin and some of his cabinet members involving alleged  corruption in the devices for Suvarnabhumi Airport._

*l Malfeasance by allowing a Krung Thai Bank loan approved for a private company*

_The  Assets Examination Committee indicted Thaksin for alleged illegal  approval of the bank's Bt9-billion loan to Krisda Mahanakorn while it  was a non-performing loan. Thaksin's son Panthongtae was also indicted  for accepting dirty money. The case is still with the National  Anti-Corruption Commission._

_-----_
Thaksin's "pastry bag" lawyers banned - Nationmultimedia.com

*Thaksin's "pastry bag" lawyers banned*

                                By The Nation
                                                                    Published on September 10, 2009

 
_Pichit_
*
The Lawyers Council of Thailand yesterday imposed a  five-year ban on three lawyers from fugitive ex-premier Thaksin  Shinawatra's defence team fighting the Ratchadaphisek land scandal case -  for their involvement in the "Bt2-million pastry bag" incident.* 

                                  The council's ethics and conduct committee voted  unanimously to ban Pichit Chuenban, Supasri Srisawat and Thana Tansiri  for violating the council's regulations and code of conduct, panel  chairman Sithichok Sricharoen said.

He said the three acted  in contempt of court and each had been sentenced by the Supreme Court  to six months in jail for the offence.

In June last year,  the trio gave a pastry bag filled with Bt2 million in banknotes to an  official at the Supreme Court's Criminal Division for Political Office  Holders, which was hearing the Ratchadaphisek land scandal case against* Thaksin* and his then-wife Pojaman.

The  lawyers argued that it was the result of a mix-up as they intended to  give the court official some pastries instead of the cash.

Sithichok  yesterday said this was the most serious case of conduct violation he  had experienced since he became a member of the committee over a decade ago.

He  said the banned lawyers would not be allowed to act as case lawyers for  the next five years. When the ban is completed, they can apply to  become registered lawyers again but the Lawyers Council of Thailand will  need to approve their applications.

Pichit could not be reached for comment about the matter yesterday.

----------


## tomta

As i said earlier, they've been working on these cases since the coup. And still no charges.

Terrorism? Yes I remember that one. Thaksin was also part of the famous lese majeste mind map case. What happened to that?

The CTX scanner was a beat-up and has been laid to rest.

The others may have merit, i'm not sure, but the fact remains that the only charge that has been pursued against Thaksin himself is that he signed approval for his wife to bid for  some land.

And what is this about suspending investigations because someone is a fugitive. I thought the wheels of justice were supposed to grind on and on.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

..duplicate

----------


## Gerbil

> And what is this about suspending investigations because someone is a fugitive. I thought the wheels of justice were supposed to grind on and on.


No. They must be suspended or the statute of limitations runs out on each case.

----------


## Bobcock

More like they get suspended because they had the result they wanted. He's gone and they can have their turn at the trough. his I'm is to reverse the situation. That is what Amart Wars is all about. No one of note should be jailed, that's against the rules.

----------


## tsicar

> As i said earlier, they've been working on these cases since the coup. And still no charges.
> 
> Terrorism? Yes I remember that one. Thaksin was also part of the famous lese majeste mind map case. What happened to that?
> 
> The CTX scanner was a beat-up and has been laid to rest.
> 
> The others may have merit, i'm not sure, but the fact remains that the only charge that has been pursued against Thaksin himself is that he signed approval for his wife to bid for some land.
> 
> .


prezacterly!

they made such a fuss and song and dance about proving their case for the coup within 3 months, (their case being thaksin's heinous crimes and rampant corruption), and nothing happenned- at least within the first three months as promised.
even with the dice loaded against thaksin, they could not prove their case, and ended up making pussies of themselves.
...then they came up with the weak crap about his wife, and they think they got off the hook.
wankers!

if the real #1 had any balls, he would have retracted his hasty endorsement of the coup, issued a public apology to thaksin and had the coup leaders shot for making a kunt of him as well..

----------


## tomta

And another one bites the dust.

Thaksin had no role in Burma gas deal - The Nation

----------


## StrontiumDog

> And another one bites the dust.
> 
> Thaksin had no role in Burma gas deal - The Nation


Not related....this is about a recent deal. 

There's a thread on it here.

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> Think about it....or maybe there are things you don't know about.
> 
> 
> Yes, I'm thinking about it... and yes there are things I don't know about.


I'm thinking about it too, but how can we know if you do not the things we do not know about?

----------


## nostromo

> *^*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> Bangkok Post : Abhisit: Thaksin was legally convicted
> ...


Well the court was set up by military government, how about that?

----------


## nostromo

Thaksin was convicted by kangaroo court simply because his wife bought some land at market price that can be verified to be fair price by international parties - there has been much discussion elsewhere. And note: They could not after their best efforts find evidence against Thaksin himself. Ie Political 

Thaksin's sentence was as absurd as the charges. Someone to me on this forum said what SET had to do with it, so I wont reprase that, idiots remain idiots. 




> poor, sick little narrow minded people.
> 
> that the fact that the constitution needs to be changed is attributed solely to the desire to get amnesty for thaksin alone just shows whaThakt a bunch of childish little wankers these people are.
> 
> if thaksin benefits from a constitutional change, then so be it:
> there will be many others who will benefit too, plus a few losers (like the bunch who think they can get away with pulling a coup and then changing the constitution to provide immunity for themselves)
> 
> there are far more issues at stake here than thaksin, and i doubt that all or any of this is about him at all.
> 
> ...

----------


## nostromo

Back to original topic. Why not bring back Thaksin? Kangaroo court convictions could be overruled by any international unaffected party.

----------


## nidhogg

Much of what is currently going on seems to be the equivalent of puttng a plaster on a broken leg.  Thailand has to address the root cause of much of the current problem:  The patently wrong handling of the assets concealment case in 2004.

Both thaksin and the courts take a big share of the blame, but there is no way that thaksin should have been allowed to be PM in face of such blatent wrongdoing.  That verdict destroyed any confidence in the country of the impartiality of the justice system, or rather destroyed any confidence that the system would deliver justice.  With that broken, the only option people saw was to take routes outside of the judiciary - yellows, reds, coups.

Simple fact is, thaksin was crooked before he became PM, was crooked while he was PM, and I am sure will remain crooked to the day he dies.

----------


## Butterfly

> The patently wrong handling of the assets concealment case in 2004.


it was 2001, not 2004




> That verdict destroyed any confidence in the country of the impartiality of the justice system, or rather destroyed any confidence that the system would deliver justice.


indeed,




> Simple fact is, thaksin was crooked before he became PM, was crooked while he was PM, and I am sure will remain crooked to the day he dies.


and we are to believe, according to our resident red nutters, that he will support democracy if he was to come back

----------


## mao say dung

^Yes. The root of everything wrong and bad and evil and really not good in Thai politics and government is that case! 

Beside that case, ol' Sarit and his legacy look like Girls Generation with camel toes all round.

----------


## Butterfly

^ missing the point once again, it was supposed to be a new clean start with Thaksin, but it wasn't, it was old same same again

----------


## mao say dung

> Much of what is currently going on seems to be the equivalent of puttng a plaster on a broken leg. Thailand has to address the root cause of much of the current problem: The patently wrong handling of the assets concealment case in 2004.


Yeah. I missed the point.

----------


## Butterfly

in that regard, Thaksin blatant violations of rules and Democracy since 2001 is raising the right questions though, I will give you that. 

Basically, one of the elite was caught red handed and punish by that same elite. That's definitely giving food for thought for the non-elite, even though they are too dumb to understand where the real issue is. Was it for being caught or being punished ? the dummies complain because he was punished so they reveal themselves for what they are, fools. Instead they should revolt because he was caught doing something he wasn't supposed to do, and that's the other dummies, not fools, but hypocrites.

So in short Thailand is split between fools and hypocrites.

----------


## nidhogg

> Originally Posted by nidhogg
> 
> The patently wrong handling of the assets concealment case in 2004.
> 
> 
> it was 2001, not 2004


Correction noted.

----------


## sabang

> Basically, one of the elite was caught red handed and punish by that same elite.


Obviously not from the constitutional court or democrat party then. They never get punished when caught red handed.

_The Democrat Party, moreover, has a record of far worse irregularities. The party narrowly escaped dissolution last year, after the Election Commission found the party guilty of accepting 258 million baht in illegal donations and of misusing another twentynine million. 

.... In its filing that recommended the dissolution of
the Democrat Party in 2007, the Office of the Attorney General found that
high-ranking Democrats officials Sathit Wongnongtoey and Secretary-General
Suthep Thaugsuban were involved in attempts to both bribe small parties
into not participating in the elections, as well as bribing officials belonging
AMSTERDAM & PEROFF | 2011 GENERAL ELECTION REPORT SERIES, NO. 5 4
to the party Prachathippatai Kao Na into registering for the election and
subsequently claim that Thai Rak Thai officials had paid them to do so.
While the junta-appointed Constitutional Tribunal upheld the latter charge
and dissolved Prachathippatai Kao Na, it conveniently cleared top Democrat
officials of the attempted fraud, saving the Democrat Party from dissolution.

.... Meanwhile, Thai Rak Thai was dissolved for allegedly bribing officials from
the small parties Paendin Thai and Pattana Chart Thai, based purely on these
officials’ testimonies, which were replete with inconsistencies.4 The charges
were initiated by Suthep Thaugsuban, who leaked images demonstrating that
the meetings took place, but the full video later released by Thai Rak Thai
dispelled the notion that the officials were given any money. Unsurprisingly,
the Constitutional Tribunal declined to admit the full videos into evidence._
http://www.google.co.th/url?sa=t&rct...inVjkodR1cVcgA

Furthermore, the 'Assets Examination Committee' that froze Thaksin's assets was a coup appointed kangaroo tribunal. I could go on ad infinitum, but it has all been said before- the judicial double standards in Thailand are blatant, the administration of justice (if it can really be called that) entirely selective.

----------


## Calgary

^
An excellent, data supported example of the double-standard issue.

I will save it.

----------


## Mr Lick

^ Yes, the headed picture of this report goes a long way in detailing how seriously it should be taken.  :Smile:

----------


## Butterfly

the double standard is here to stay, so there is no point into fighting against it, even the population support it

what the population should do is to fight for more economic equality

----------


## lom

> And another one bites the dust.
> 
> Thaksin had no role in Burma gas deal - The Nation




*Foreign Minister Surapong Towichukchaikul said...*

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> More like they get suspended because they had the result they wanted. He's gone and they can have their turn at the trough. his I'm is to reverse the situation. That is what Amart Wars is all about. No one of note should be jailed, that's against the rules.


It's also why no one of note gets their brains shot out - That's the other rule. I'm sure many have wanted to do so against rival families they've lost face to or feel they've been cheated by. It would be a Valentine's Day massacre X 100 if American Mafia-style revenge attacks started between Thai Hi-So families here. I wonder if some kind of Hi-So arbitration process exists here to quietly reach agreements here - what do you think?
 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## nostromo

Butters, never mind missing the point since you did not get the point at the beginning of time anyway. You know what Tintin and his dog would say of you?

Some indicators to look about Thaksin's time in office are GDP/GDP-PPP growth, high step up in press freedom index and huge drop in drug usage.

----------


## Bobcock

> what do you think?


I think it is highly likely....

----------


## Butterfly

> I wonder if some kind of Hi-So arbitration process exists here to quietly reach agreements here - what do you think?


jesus, it took you that long to figure it out  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## nidhogg

> and huge drop in drug usage.


So, extrajudicial murders are ok in your book?

----------


## Calgary

> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> 
> and huge drop in drug usage.
> 
> 
> So, extrajudicial murders are ok in your book?


Coups and Militaristic, murderous rampaging through a political demonstration is Ok in your books?

----------


## StrontiumDog

*                         Tensions grow as Thailand awaits Thaksin's return                    * 

*Lindsay Murdoch*

     December 29, 2011    

 
_Thaksin Shinawatra … said to be the power behind the premier. Photo: AFP_

                                 BANGKOK:  Thailand's government has returned the Thai  passport of the fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and is  preparing to welcome him from exile, stoking renewed political tensions  in the country.

              Mr Thaksin, a divisive figure, missed a self-imposed  deadline to be in Bangkok for the wedding of his daughter Pinthongta two  weeks ago.

              But supporters of the telecommunications tycoon, who has lived in exile since 2008, believe he will be home within months.

                                       Advertisement: Story continues below                               

             From Dubai where he is living, Mr Thaksin insists  Thailand is about to enter a period of reconciliation after six years of  upheaval, but warns that ''merchants of conflict'' will try to thwart  the peace efforts.

              ''Those who are not brutal and not self-centred had better get into the reconciliation mode now,'' he told the _Bangkok Post_.

              Powerful forces, including Bangkok's political and  military elite, strongly oppose Mr Thaksin's return, unless he serves at  least part of a two-year prison sentence for alleged corruption.

              But MPs in Yingluck Shinawatra's Puea Thai party  are  planning amnesties for people on both sides of the country's bitterly  divided politics, a move that government  critics say is ostensibly  designed to allow her brother  back into the country without him having  to go to jail.

              The government is also planning constitutional amendments  that Mr Thaksin, who was ousted in a 2006 coup, says should protect  democratically elected representatives from being forced from power.

              Ms Yingluck won a landslide election in July on a promise  to her millions of so-called ''red shirt'' supporters that she would  bring her brother home, and analysts say she will face a backlash from  her own supporters if she fails to fulfil the promise.

              In November the government was forced to withdraw an  endorsement of a royal pardon for Mr Thaksin  after leaders of the  royalist ''yellow shirt'' movement and the opposition  vowed to   strongly protest against it.

              But the Deputy Prime Minister, Chalerm Yoobamrung, a  government heavyweight,  has confirmed Mr Thaksin will be able to return  under a proposed amnesty bill to be passed in parliament, probably in  the first half of 2012, even though the bill will be strongly opposed by  Mr Thaksin's many enemies.

              Since the election Mr Thaksin has been widely credited  with running the government from exile although he says he is just an  observer trying to point out problems.

              In a tongue-in-cheek end-of-year assessment of the  44-year-old Prime Minister, Thai parliamentary reporters said:   ''Yingluck is the bird Thaksin raised in a golden cage and taught to  speak repeatedly the message he wants while avoiding talking politics.''

              Mr Thaksin admitted he had flown to Burma earlier this  month to ''smooth the way'' for Ms Yingluck's official visit  just  before Christmas, which included talks with the reformist President,  Thein Sein, and the democracy leader Aung San Suu Kyi.

              In recent months many government coalition MPs have met  Mr Thaksin in Cambodia, Hong Kong, Singapore and Dubai, including some  who are thought to be looking for promotion  in a cabinet reshuffle  expected early in the new year.  Mr Thaksin is believed to be unhappy  with the performance of several cabinet ministers, including those who  provided Ms Yingluck with incorrect  information and advice during the  country's   devastating floods.

              Ms Yingluck, a political novice,  struggled to deal with  the bureaucracy and politicians during the crisis which left more than  400 people dead and caused billions of dollars worth of damage.

              Mr Thaksin fled Thailand in 2008 before the Supreme Court  sentenced him for abusing his authority as prime minister to help his  former wife buy a state-owned land plot in inner Bangkok in 2003.

              He denies the charge, saying it was a political set-up.



Read more: Tensions grow as Thailand awaits Thaksin's return

----------


## Calgary

^
And the Thaksin paranoia overfloweth again - today's version!

----------


## Calgary

*^^*
*



			
				Powerful forces, including Bangkok's political and military elite, strongly oppose Mr Thaksin's return,
			
		

*More powerful than electoral forces?

Sad but probably true.

At least that has been the case so far into this Govts. mandate.

The UDD/Red Shirts are doing their damndest to bring some equilibrium to this power equation, and seeking to elevate electoral powers.
*



			
				a move that government critics say is ostensibly designed to allow her brother back into the country without him having to go to jail.
			
		

*Government critics - The PAD, Democrat Party and other electoral losers.

I wouldn't expect anything else.

When Abhi. goes to jail, perhaps consideration can be given to Thaksin.
*



			
				Ms Yingluck won a landslide election in July on a promise to her millions of so-called ''red shirt'' supporters that she would bring her brother home, and analysts say she will face a backlash from her own supporters if she fails to fulfil the promise.
			
		

*Yup!

Election promises are promises!
*



			
				In a tongue-in-cheek end-of-year assessment of the 44-year-old Prime Minister, Thai parliamentary reporters said: ''Yingluck is the bird Thaksin raised in a golden cage and taught to speak repeatedly the message he wants while avoiding talking politics.''
			
		

*Propagandists trying to launder their propaganda through a so-called "_tongue-in-cheek"_ approach.

Nice change from researchy type polling by NIDA, Aabac and others.
*



			
				Ms Yingluck, a political novice, struggled to deal with the bureaucracy and politicians during the crisis which left more than 400 people dead and caused billions of dollars worth of damage.
			
		

*Did she struggle?

This is stated as if it should be a commonly accepted fact, when it is merely Amart propaganda.

For a political novice, she did a hell-of-a-job!

----------


## sabang

> Ms Yingluck, a political novice, struggled to deal with the [self serving] bureaucracy and [opposition] politicians during the crisis


Actually, given that central Thailand was inundated by floods it absolutely did not have the infrastructure to handle, plus the Chart Thai cabal managed to stuff everyone else up by being in put charge of the Agriculture Dept (under both Abhi and Ying) and holding dams near full to try and ensure a second rice crop for Suphanburi and surrounds, I don't think Yingluck or the government did a bad job overall. Communication was definitely a stuff-up as the crisis was unfolding, but it did improve. Based on published opinion polls, that seems to be the view of the Thai citizenry overall too. You only need look at the New Orleans debacle or the Jap tsunami to see that government besides Thailand are routinely caught short by serious natural disasters.

It's a cold day in Hell when you don't read some rehash in the bangkok 'press' of the same old 'T bad', 'puppet government' spiel. Rather a waste of time commenting on this endless torrent really- just look up comments based on the same drivel from some months back. Whoever they may or may not take advice from the buck still stops with the elected government, and they alone are answerable to the people of Thailand (aka Voters) for their performance, and relevance. The thai print media can either choose to remain utterly irrelevant outside of narrow sinoThai obsessions in bangkok, or not. To most everyone else, it's just about celebrity gossip and lurid photos, if they bother reading it at all.

----------


## Butterfly

calgary, maybe it's time to reconsider that Thaksin is in charge, not your beloved UDD leaders as you are lead to believe

you and UDD got fucked, Thai Chinese style

----------


## nidhogg

> . You only need look at the New Orleans debacle or the Jap tsunami to see that government besides Thailand are routinely caught short by serious natural disasters.


Just to quibble, both of your examples were the result of pretty sudden events (storm, earthquake).  The Thai disaster was _months_ in the brewing....

----------


## sabang

^^ I'm sure that many in the PT party machine would just love the UDD to roll over like a puppy and play submissive BF, I agree with you there. But they won't, and good on them for that.

^ Doesn't change the fact- a serious volume of water was heading down the Chao praya, infrastructure was totally inadequate to handle it and dams were near full. Disaster management and civil defence for central Bangkok were the main priorities, flood prevention out of the question. The outcome wasn't going to change whether this happened at 50kph, or5kph. You can't change watercourses or put in new dams in that time frame.

----------


## Butterfly

> But they won't, and good on them for that.


they won't have a choice eventually, their leverage is getting smaller by the day

eventually they will become completely irrelevant, for a simple reason, they are not clearly defined and do not have a clear mandate. It's all Thai style crowd movement. It will not grow past that, because a lot of them have little in common.

----------


## Butterfly

for the red leaders, their only exit options are to return to their anonymity or join PT and betray UDD core followers

we all know how it's going to end, we are just eating popcorn and watching the train wreck waiting for it to happen

----------


## Calgary

> Originally Posted by sabang
> 
> 
> . You only need look at the New Orleans debacle or the Jap tsunami to see that government besides Thailand are routinely caught short by serious natural disasters.
> 
> 
> Just to quibble, both of your examples were the result of pretty sudden events (storm, earthquake). The Thai disaster was _months_ in the brewing....


A key point Sabang makes however, is that any assessment of Thai Govt. performance in the face of crisis, sudden or not, must be within the context of other. national Govts. crisis performance.

Judging performance in instances such as these, are all relative.

For the Amart to dump all over this Govt. for poor performance, one either needs to compare to others, or describes what excellent performance would look like.

Their constant FROC flogging, and now using their compliant judicial system to attack the Govt., has no basis of verifiable standards against which to measure.

Therefore, it is seen for what it is - political opportunism.

----------


## nidhogg

> Originally Posted by nidhogg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by sabang
> ...


Sabang can make the point all he wants.  But you cannot equate the response to a sudden massive disaster to a disaster that was months in the brewing.  Apples and oranges.

----------


## Calgary

> ^ I'm sure that many in the PT party machine would just love the UDD to roll over like a puppy and play submissive BF, I agree with you there. But they won't, and good on them for that.


An indication of this lack of submissiveness will be on full display in Korat today.

A rally largely considered to be a concert, will be energetically attended by large numbers of the UDD, and featuring many key speakers, including Natthawut, Jatuporn, my hero Arisman, plus many other Red Shirt luminaries.

PTP observers will be reminded where their allegiance ought to lie, and continued Amart intimidated non-performance will not be tolerated much longer.

I think the PTP has started to get the message, given their more forcefull pursuit of Constitutional reform and other actions.

----------


## SteveCM

*Annan will help bring the country together - The Nation*

*Annan will help bring the country together*


         The Nation December 30, 2011

 

Kofi Annan, former United Nations secretary-general,  will be in Bangkok from February 16-19 to discuss reconciliation  strategies with the Truth for Reconciliation Commission of Thailand  (TRCT), panel member Kittipong Kittayarak said yesterday.

              Annan will meet concerned agencies to share his experiences in bringing  sides together, Kittipong said, adding that the former UN boss had  accepted TRCT's invitation when they visited him in Switzerland in  October. Annan had urged all parties to join hands in removing the  divisions in society. The UN chief also urged the panel to seek public  participation and maintain its independence.

----------


## Bobcock

> my hero Arisman


Genuine question, out of interest what is it about him that makes him your hero?

----------


## sabang

> Sabang can make the point all he wants.


Sure, and if I believed the bk 'media' I would probably believe that Thaksin deliberately made the disaster worse. But I listen to the Thai people, instead.

Not trying to shoot down valid criticisms though. The earlier unco-ordinated and often contradictory government communications were hardly confidence building, the actions of the Agriculture Ministry and it's rather hand in glove relationship with Chart Thai (Banharn) and parochial Suphanburi interests deserves further scrutiny, and there should by rights be a major scandal in the making over the Interior ministry, and it's misdeeds under Abhisit- to presumably reward the Nevin faction that controlled it, for services rendered. The last one is the biggest and most serious of all, so naturally beyond a cursory mention, it is being ignored by the bk 'media'.

----------


## tomta

> Originally Posted by nidhogg View Post Quote: Originally Posted by nostromo View Post and huge drop in drug usage. So, extrajudicial murders are ok in your book? Coups and Militaristic, murderous rampaging through a political demonstration is Ok in your books?


Both thaksin's  War on Drugs and the military's killings are wrong in my books. It's not an either/or situation.

----------


## tomta

> Whoever they may or may not take advice from the buck still stops with the elected government, and they alone are answerable to the people of Thailand (aka Voters) for their performance, and relevance.


That's how it should be Sabang but the government's actions in regard to lese majeste and constitutional amendment seems to indicate that they at least feel as though they are answerable to the army when the fact is that the army should be answerable to them.

----------


## sabang

^ Absolutely. The PT theme of 'reconciliation' is perhaps most blatant of all when it comes to the Army, but we all know why. The Issue of Thailand getting the army under control and actually reporting to the civilian government, dwarfs anything to do with bladdy Thaksin actually . So naturally you read little about it in the 'press'.

----------


## baldrick

> and continued Amart intimidated non-performance will not be tolerated much longer.


until they what ? crank out their own pro yingluk the hard working women of the people propaganda ? is she going to head up the northeast for a photo op on a honda wave ? she is "the clone" after all

----------


## Gerbil

> crank out their own pro yingluk the hard working women of the people propaganda


Which is ironic as she has a reputation for skipping meetings, etc.

----------


## sabang

Certainly the UDD and offshoots are the most interesting phenomenon in contemporary Thai politics. Squabbling PT, Dem's and shifting political alliances are just the 'same old same old', frankly- it was no different in the 90's. Neither is the odd military crackdown or coup anything out of the mold if you read your Thai history- but the broad public reaction to it this time, after a long incubation period, was.

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> 
> and huge drop in drug usage.
> 
> 
> So, extrajudicial murders are ok in your book?


Of course not. But it was not Thaksin who killed anyone, You probably know a bit about Thai power structure.

Though I don't object to killing drug dealers who teach your kids to inject heroin into their eyeballs. If you tolerate that, your kids will be next as the song says, so think of your own morals.

And said action against drug dealers was popular one so you could call it democratic.

----------


## Butterfly

> but the broad public reaction to it this time, after a long incubation period, was.


are you joking ? the broad public reactions were simply paid stooges, and that is true for both the PAD and the UDD,

you are again disillusioning yourself with your idea of a people awakening, they will fall asleep as soon as politics will be back to the old same again

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by nidhogg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by nostromo
> ...


In all fairness, to be honest, frankly, I would think killing some drug dealers is better than events  affecting whole country like military coups and events leading to them.

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by sabang
> 
> but the broad public reaction to it this time, after a long incubation period, was.
> 
> 
> are you joking ? the broad public reactions were simply paid stooges, and that is true for both the PAD and the UDD,
> 
> you are again disillusioning yourself with your idea of a people awakening, they will fall asleep as soon as politics will be back to the old same again


I was thinking you have been joking all the time you have been here :Smile:  But if you are not joking, take your pills, like you said in private message to me.

If you don't see difference between PAD and UDD, you need new eyeballs that are not injected with heroin.

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by baldrick
> 
> crank out their own pro yingluk the hard working women of the people propaganda
> 
> 
> Which is ironic as she has a reputation for skipping meetings, etc.


What is your basis for saying that? Remember, she is busy PM in crisis situation and most probably can not join your Deranged Farangs 1979 Yearly Meeting.

----------


## Gerbil

^ Inside knowledge. 

Also, a number of comments about her 'lack of commitment' have been made.

e.g:

_Yingluck herself has been also been named the "Falling Star MP" by the parliamentary reporters. The reporters who voted for this reasoned that as prime minister and Pheu Thai MP, Yingluck has downplayed the importance of legislative work. The reporters also say that Yingluck has skipped some meetings, including critical ones, which were aimed at resolving disputes between the government and the opposition parties.
_

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by Calgary
> 
> Originally Posted by nidhogg View Post Quote: Originally Posted by nostromo View Post and huge drop in drug usage. So, extrajudicial murders are ok in your book? Coups and Militaristic, murderous rampaging through a political demonstration is Ok in your books?
> 
> 
> Both thaksin's  War on Drugs and the military's killings are wrong in my books. It's not an either/or situation.


I think you are rightfully thinking person, but consider:

The difference is that WOD was popular choice of people and did not hurt the economy - quite opposite. What PAD did harmed (like airport takeovers and grenades all over) whole country and the economy and Thailand's reputation. WOD was basically same that US did, but I don't see anyone crying over it.

----------


## nidhogg

> Originally Posted by nidhogg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by nostromo
> ...


 
A bit silly to be frank.

Extra judicial killings are to be abhorred.  After due process, fire away.

In my humble opinion, one of the factors (not all, just one) that directly led to the coup was the nullification of the judiciary in Thailand by Thaksin.  Corruption of the courts, official tolerance (at the very least) of murder on the streets of people suspected (not proven) to be involved n the drugs trade (which also caught up, if memory serves me correctly many innocent people, including a 9 year old boy).

Extra judicial killing may start with those most reviled by society, but it is a very, very short step from there to "people I don't like"....

----------


## nostromo

Yellow media s*it. In reality, if you watch Thai TV, Yingluck has been very much trying to heal the divide between parties. She even offered  Mark olive branch. What you read in Bangkok Post next day is that Abhisit has offered Ms Y olive branch and she turned it down.

So it makes me wonder where your inside knowledge comes from. Prem's office?




> ^ Inside knowledge. 
> 
> Also, a number of comments about her 'lack of commitment' have been made.
> 
> e.g:
> 
> _Yingluck herself has been also been named the "Falling Star MP" by the parliamentary reporters. The reporters who voted for this reasoned that as prime minister and Pheu Thai MP, Yingluck has downplayed the importance of legislative work. The reporters also say that Yingluck has skipped some meetings, including critical ones, which were aimed at resolving disputes between the government and the opposition parties.
> _

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by nidhogg
> ...



Well said, but decision to kill the drug dealers in the end was made by locals, not the central govt. And 9 year old kid can easily be drug dealer nowadays. After due process, he would be in juvenile prison and his older mates dead anyways.

----------


## sabang

> the broad public reactions were simply paid stooges


Nonsense, and straight out of the PAD play book.

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> the broad public reactions were simply paid stooges
> 
> 
> Nonsense, and straight out of the PAD play book.


This has happened before. And will happen again. And again. And again....

----------


## sabang

> Also, a number of comments about her 'lack of commitment' have been made.


Yingluck manages her government as an executive might a corporation. That means she expects ministers etc to turn up to meetings prepared, and has short shrift with hanging around at unproductive meetings- preferring to reschedule them instead, this time with the participants having prepared. Neither does she feel the need to be sat down at every bitching session, thankfully- and she certainly doesn't waste time with small talk with the rabid bk 'media', which hopefully makes them feel as small as they should feel. The  main negative comment I've heard is that some of her ministers and senior bureaucrats think that she rides them too hard, poor things.

----------


## Butterfly

> Yingluck manages her government as an executive might a corporation. That means she expects ministers etc to turn up to meetings prepared, and has short shrift with hanging around at unproductive meetings- preferring to reschedule them instead, this time with the participants having prepared. Neither does she feel the need to be sat down at every bitching session, thankfully- and she certainly doesn't waste time with small talk with the rabid bk 'media', which hopefully makes them feel as small as they should feel. The main negative comment I've heard is that some of her ministers and senior bureaucrats think that she rides them too hard, poor things.


right, and you can say that because you were at those meetings and she kept you in the loop about what was going on  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## nostromo

Since Yingluck ACTUALLY was a successful corporative executive, she knows about the pros and cons. I always vote for real person instead of plain pollitician. If it was like Mark with only political experience, maybe all of bangkok would be flooded now. Who knows.

----------


## sabang

^ Apart from being a bit more markedly 'pro' central (ie Democrat) Bangkok, I don't think there would have been much difference actually- well, that and the fact the infamous nevin interior ministry would have been in clover, free as they apparently were of virtually any oversight. Plain fact is, there was neither the infrastructure or systems in place to handle the emerging crisis particularly competently, no matter who might have been in charge. Yep, that includes Thaksin too.

----------


## tomta

> Quote: Originally Posted by nostromo View Post Quote: Originally Posted by nidhogg View Post Quote: Originally Posted by nostromo View Post and huge drop in drug usage. So, extrajudicial murders are ok in your book? Of course not. But it was not Thaksin who killed anyone, You probably know a bit about Thai power structure.  Though I don't object to killing drug dealers who teach your kids to inject heroin into their eyeballs. If you tolerate that, your kids will be next as the song says, so think of your own morals.  And said action against drug dealers was popular one so you could call it democratic.  A bit silly to be frank.  Extra judicial killings are to be abhorred. After due process, fire away.  In my humble opinion, one of the factors (not all, just one) that directly led to the coup was the nullification of the judiciary in Thailand by Thaksin. Corruption of the courts, official tolerance (at the very least) of murder on the streets of people suspected (not proven) to be involved n the drugs trade (which also caught up, if memory serves me correctly many innocent people, including a 9 year old boy).  Extra judicial killing may start with those most reviled by society, but it is a very, very short step from there to "people I don't like".... __________________


Nidhogg is right . A society that can tolerate the extrajudicial murders of people in the name of some supposedly greater good like the "war on drugs", can learn to tolerate the extra-judicial  murders of redshirts in the name of  "law and order" and it can tolerate absurd and lengthy jail sentences for more or less randomly picked people in order to protect the "institution" .

They are all of a piece and what they have in common is a fundamental denial of justice and transparency.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> ^
> And the Thaksin paranoia overfloweth again - today's version!


Except that it is the SYDNEY MORNING HERALD...an AUSTRALIAN newspaper. 

Sorry, what was your point again?

----------


## nostromo

> ^ Apart from being a bit more markedly 'pro' central (ie Democrat) Bangkok, I don't think there would have been much difference actually- well, that and the fact the infamous nevin interior ministry would have been in clover, free as they apparently were of virtually any oversight. Plain fact is, there was neither the infrastructure or systems in place to handle the emerging crisis particularly competently, no matter who might have been in charge. Yep, that includes Thaksin too.


Yes, includes Thaksin too. But how many world leaders knew beforehand as in Thaksins time in office, of climate change, which is the initial and definitive reason to all this shit.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by nidhogg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by nostromo
> ...


I try to ignore your posts here, as they are so full of ignorance and quite often the ramblings of a completely stupid moron, but this one goes beyond even that. The 9 year old in question, that was shot dead, was not a drug dealer. There's a thread on it here. 

Also the decision to kill was not down to locals. Lists were drawn up and the decision to kill was made by the killers...the police here, under orders, orders Thaksin was very vocal about, threatening those who did not follow through on the governments "war on drugs" extra-judicial killings policy (it has been posted here numerous times, but you are simply too stupid to adjust your opinions when faced with overwhelming evidence to the contrary). Responsibility, a most basic concept that apparently you have failed to grasp, falls to those who kill and/or order the killings. 

Nostromo, you are quite simply one of the stupidest people I've ever encountered. And I used to work with the learning disabled....

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer
> 
> I wonder if some kind of Hi-So arbitration process exists here to quietly reach agreements here - what do you think?
> 
> 
> jesus, it took you that long to figure it out


Nope - I was just hoping someone would be brave enough to name the name(s) of the arbiters. No luck.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> I used to work with the learning disabled....


Quite a CV you have SD. Of course we all know your posts are all about "you" anyway. Too funny.

What was it again? 

1. A police forensic psychologist.
2. Then it softened to something much less qualified.
3. Now it's about working with learning disabled.

So what exactly is your qualification again? And is that backed up with some kind of recognised degree and kept by a registered body?

Oh, and ok, before you ask yet again - it was top 5 percentile for me. Now of course you know what this means and how it is arrived, so I don't need to explain it to you -- do I?

----------


## Tom Sawyer

I thought he worked at the UN.
EDIT: And buggered lady boyz on soi 4

----------


## DroversDog

> the decision to kill was made by the killers...


Any proof you want to share will be passed on if you want. Pure speculation and gossip will be passed off as are your usual posts.  :Smile:

----------


## DroversDog

> 3. Now it's about working with learning disabled.


Is that why SD qualifies for a disabled parking permit?  ::spin::

----------


## nostromo

As SD said" I used to work with the learning disabled...."
Who was disabled? SD? Learning what? To drool? And write trash on internet?

----------


## nostromo

Don't make jokes that bad, SD does not have driving license from anywhere.

----------


## Calgary

A few comments about the hugely attended Red Shirt/UDD gathering in Korat yesterday:It was more concert, than political speechifyingArisman very skinny compared to the last time saw him. He displayed the new language skills he learned by singing 'Happy Birthday', in what he said was Burmese.Jatuporn lamented the seemingly Opposition role that the UDD was playing at the present time, with Red Shirts still jailed, and the Constitution issue in flux. He suggested as have many, that the gloves come off in the New Year.Nathawut expressed similar sentiments.Given the more pro-active stance of the PTP very recently with respect to Constitutional reform, is an indication that this UDD/RS pressure is beginning to bear fruit.

There is considerable concern however, about Amart machinations being such, that they will seek to steal this Govt. yet again, before the lengthy Constitution reform project is complete, and before they lose some weapons to accomplish the deed. Weapons they built into their Coup-Constitution for just that purpose.

Also this notion of having some appointees for the Constitution reform process is frought with peril, considering the lack of non-Amart academics, and somebody simply forcing the selection.

I am sure all of you have read about this significant UDD/RS event of last night, both in an anticipatory sense, and after the fact, in your Domestic Media.....Right?

Huh, you haven't?...................Must be shades of the past, when your lovable English language Media blacked-out these post-coup events until they arrived in Bangkok. Then they were characterized as the first awakening of the UDD.....surprise, surprise.

Can you imagine if the PAD were able to muster such an event anywhere, how it would be headline news.

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by SteveCM

Annan will help bring the country together - The Nation


*_




 Originally Posted by SteveCM

Annan will meet concerned agencies to share his experiences in bringing sides together


_
If the Nation trumpets this, it immediately brings it under suspicion.

I am sure Annan's primary contacts have been with Amart types, he is not aware of the hidden powers, and probably unaware of the numerical differences between the two sides in this political equation.

The Amart would like to be on an even numerical footing, when advancing their goals via a reconciliation initiative as this article discusses.

----------


## Calgary

> Originally Posted by Calgary
> 
> my hero Arisman
> 
> 
> Genuine question, out of interest what is it about him that makes him your hero?


Of all the UDD leaders, he has been the most effective thorn in the side of the Amart.

And that is why they despise him.

The degree of their dislike for Arisman, is directly proportional to my elevating him to hero status.

Several examples, among many, explaining this comment about "_Thorn effectiveness"_
He first came to the fore during the Pattaya world leader gathering. This was the first time Abhi. and company realized the power of the anti-coup forces out there, and the degree of opposition to the farcical use of Parliamentary procedures, to elevate him into his position.During the many Post-coup confrontations with the Amart, protesting the coup and all its' Amart machinations afterward, it was always Arisman who needed to do the "heavy lifting". This was simply because of his abilities. I saw many instances when Arisman needed to be sent out to accomplish an action that seemed to befuddle other UDD leaders. He had a special knack for agitating the Amart........An example of the above, when the Red Shirts stood up to the Amart before they were gunned down at Ratchaprasong, Amart legislators from an electoral minority, were again preparing coup enabled anti-Red Shirt initiatives. It was important at that moment for Red Shirts to "_get in their face_". A group of them went to the Parliament to do just that, accompanied by a UDD leader. But nothing happened. They were stymied. In exasperation, the UDD sent Arisman over, and in short order, the Red Shirts were confronting those who needed to be confronted.It is not by accident, why this Amart wants to keep him jailed under whatever judicial-fronted pretense they can conjure up.

That is why their media charaterizes him as "hard-core UDD". He is a tough nut for them to crack....Poor babies.

Considering the enthusiastic response he generated at last nights' huge Red Shirt/UDD event in Korat, he is a hero within that movement also. The more the Amart pursues him, the more they show their true motivational colors, and the more they alienate these people.

And that is why Arisman is my "_person of the year_" within the Thai political context. Besides, I met his parents, who are classy people.

----------


## Bobcock

> Well said, but decision to kill the drug dealers in the end was made by locals, not the central govt. And 9 year old kid can easily be drug dealer nowadays. After due process, he would be in juvenile prison and his older mates dead anyways.


Ladies and Gentlemen.....at the 11th we finally have it....

The Most fucking stupid post of 2011.

I reckon it'll make the all time top 2 as well....

----------


## Calgary

> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> Well said, but decision to kill the drug dealers in the end was made by locals, not the central govt. And 9 year old kid can easily be drug dealer nowadays. After due process, he would be in juvenile prison and his older mates dead anyways.
> 
> 
> Ladies and Gentlemen.....at the 11th we finally have it....
> 
> The Most fucking stupid post of 2011.
> 
> I reckon it'll make the all time top 2 as well....


You obviously haven't read some of the Posts I have BC.

Any opinion is worthy of consideration, over Posts where it is just idiotic, vocabulary challenged, say-nothing attacks.

Those are the ones who go down in my estimation as deserving utter disdain.

Nostromo is expressing a POV that can at least be challenged by those who disagree.

How does one challenge the non-opinionated gutter language Posts that I have seen?

I have used the 'ignore' feature to eliminate them from my involvement with TD.

----------


## Bobcock

I am quite selective in what I read, sadly I made a mistake that read that garbage.....

----------


## Calgary

> I am quite selective in what I read, sadly I made a mistake that read that garbage.....


To be selective is a good thing!

----------


## StrontiumDog

*http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/loca...ork-for-public
*
*Democrats urge govt to stop helping Thaksin, work for public*

Published: 31/12/2011 at 12:00 AMNewspaper section: News
 The opposition Democrat Party has urged the  government to cease its efforts to help ousted former prime minister  Thaksin Shinawatra, and instead work for the country as a New Year's  gift for the people.

 There are at least seven acts that have aroused suspicion among  critics that the government is trying to help Thaksin since the Pheu  Thai-led coalition took office in July and Thaksin's sister Yingluck  Shinawatra became prime minister, Democrat Party spokesman Chavanond  Intarakomalyasut said yesterday.

 On Aug 7, the Revenue Department decided not to collect taxes from  Thaksin's children _ Panthongtae and Pinthongta _ on the sale of their  Shin Corp shares to Singapore's Temasek Holdings in 2006, which would  have cost each of them 5.6 billion baht. This followed a tax court  ruling that they were not the real owners of the shares.

 On Aug 11, Foreign Minister Surapong Tovichakchaikul asked the  Japanese embassy to grant Thaksin permission to visit Japan's  tsunami-ravaged region.

 On Aug 30, red shirt leaders were appointed to political posts, which  were seen as rewards for their role in rallies held in an attempt to  oust the preceding Abhisit Vejjajiva government.

 On Sept 7, Justice Minister Pracha Promnok set up a panel to consider  a request to ask for a royal pardon for Thaksin, who was sentenced to  two years in jail by the Supreme Court for abuse of power as prime  minister in the state sale of land on Bangkok's Ratchadaphisek Road. He  fled overseas rather than face the penalty, and now lives in  self-imposed exile.

 On Sept 26, state prosecutors decided not to appeal against the  decision by the Appeal Court to acquit Thaksin's ex-wife Potjaman na  Pombejra on tax-evasion charges.

 On Oct 19, Khunying Potjaman's brother, Pol Gen Priewpan Damapong, was promoted to national police chief.

 On Oct 26, the Foreign Ministry issued a new Thai passport to Thaksin  after his last one was revoked during the Democrat-led administration.

 Thaksin's family and allies of the government "have been given enough  help and rewards", said Mr Chavanond, so it is now time to work for the  public good instead.

 The Democrat spokesman also called on Ms Yingluck to improve her performance by educating herself more on national issues.

 A lack of adequate knowledge on these issues, Mr Chavanond said, "should not be a trait of a prime minister of this country".

 The government must also avoid lying to the people, must not distort  information, exploit voters by asking them to back its questionable  acts, seek more loans or support people suspected of offending the  monarchy.

 If Ms Yingluck continues to help her brother and does nothing to  improve the government's performance, society will suffer great damage,  Mr Chavanond warned.

 Meanwhile, Ms Yingluck said she was ready to accept criticism and work hard for the country.

 Speaking to Government House reporters, led by veteran journalist  Yuwadee Tunyasiri, who met the premier yesterday to wish her a happy New  Year, Ms Yingluck said she was confident her efforts would speak for  themselves and asked for the opportunity for her administration to  complete its term.

 Ms Yingluck said she would work hard to lead the country towards unity and reconciliation.

 Mr Abhisit, the Democrat Party leader, in a New Year message  yesterday, called on the public to help build a more robust society next  year.

----------


## Calgary

*^*
*



			
				http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/loca...ork-for-public Democrats urge govt to stop helping Thaksin, work for public
			
		

*

Today's version of Thaksin paranoia overfloweth again.

A never-ending stream from these people.

I should look up the definition of '_paranoia_' sometime, to get a complete appreciation of their affliction.

'Affliction' is probably the wrong descriptor. 'Fear' may be more appropriate.

----------


## sabang

Someone really should compile a Database of these endlessly repeated, inane articles plugging the same theme, from the good ole' Paste & Notion. It is a rare day we do not have at least one of these rehashes. It would be a weighty tome, indeed.

----------


## SteveCM

> If the Nation trumpets this, it immediately brings it under suspicion.


Suspicion is one thing - and I certainly think it's usually sensible to a] look twice at Thai media reports and b] often take them with a pinch of salt - but see also https://teakdoor.com/1975683-post36.html

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> 
>  
> I used to work with the learning disabled....
> 
> 
> Quite a CV you have SD. Of course we all know your posts are all about "you" anyway. Too funny.
> 
> ...


Ah, insults a plenty from the usual group of adoring fans I seem to have managed to accumulate simply because I post the news and dare to disagree with them.

It may come as a surprise to you Tom, but psychologists tend to work with a range of people, with a range of conditions. I worked for both the public/government and private sectors. In that time I had the dubious pleasure of working with murderers, sex offenders, drug addicts, wife batterers, child abusers, the mentally ill, sociopaths/psychopaths and on and on. The full gamut of dysfunctional behaviour. Some of these had learning disabilities. I know, imagine, not all of them weren't the sharpest tools in the box....funny as hell, that with such a high IQ (which should indicate an ability to work things out for yourself, but apparently not in your case) you are completely unaware that people, who might require a psychologists intervention, often have a range of issues. You know, you might work with a sex offender who has learning disabilities....I guess you are shocked Tom, by this revelation.....well, you're welcome. No charge. People are complex Tom. 

Whether you believe me or not means nothing. 

Oh and for someone of such an allegedly fine intellect, why is it that you write total crap so often? Just asking....

And yes, you do need to explain your IQ test results, I'd like to know which scale was used. The Weschler scale is still commonly used, but MENSA now use Cattell.

----------


## sabang

> In that time I had the dubious pleasure of working with murderers, sex offenders, drug addicts, wife batterers, child abusers, the mentally ill, sociopaths/psychopaths and on and on. The full gamut of dysfunctional behaviour.


So what brought you to TD.  :mid:

----------


## Gerbil

^ He feels right at home  :Smile:

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> In that time I had the dubious pleasure of working with murderers, sex offenders, drug addicts, wife batterers, child abusers, the mentally ill, sociopaths/psychopaths and on and on. The full gamut of dysfunctional behaviour.
> 
> 
> So what brought you to TD.


 :Smile: 

My poster cover is just a ruse, I'm on a mission to try to alter and manipulate the minds of the weak-willed and easily confused (Nostromo, Calgary, Tom etc). Just call me super-amart-undercover-club-extraordinaire (yeah, I know it doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, S.A.U.C.E. for short). I'm affiliated with the PAD-Amart-Yellow (P.A.Y.) and we operate out of a secret underground bunker in Lolita's on Soi 8. If you know the special handshake (and at Lolita's there's a few of those), you can gain entrance to the hidden mission control centre, via the naughty boys corner. If you can get past the female security....they can be distracting. 

From there we study, observe, influence and spy on the masses (and occasionally the goings-on nearby). I am part of the great conspiracy, just ask Calgary, he knows! He can see through our cunning ploys. He has it all worked out!!! I think he might be an occasional visitor to our den of ill-repute, casing the joint, having a very thorough look around at what goes on there...well, I think that's what he was doing....

But, this is all highly confidential information, ok? Don't tell no one. I hope my secret is safe with you Sabang...

----------


## Tom Sawyer

More sloppy research. Lolita's is on Soi 8. 

Not sure which scale was used - it was around 12 years back. At the time they said there were 5 or 6 different tests (accredited).

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ Ah, thanks, I didn't know...I'll adjust my post.....

I'm not familiar with such establishments Tom. It appears you are. Sorry about that.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

No problem. It's just the heightened awareness of superior intellect. 
 :rofl:

----------


## Butterfly

> The full gamut of dysfunctional behaviour. Some of these had learning disabilities.


sounds like TD actually  :Smile:

----------


## Butterfly

people who advertise their IQ levels to make a point on an anonymous message board don't seem to be really that smart after all

more likely pretentious idiots with insecurity issues,

I suspect they score in the lowest percentile, close to Thais and monkeys

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Korn warns govt not to fall into Thaksin 'death trap' - The Nation
*
*Korn warns govt not to fall into Thaksin 'death trap'*

         The Nation January 3, 2012  1:00 am 
 
*
This year will see political conflict boil over with  fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra as the "death trap"  for the Yingluck Shinawatra administration, while the soaring cost of  living could also spell trouble, deputy Democrat Party leader Korn  Chatikavanij warned yesterday.*

Korn, the ex-finance minister, said the economic risks confronting  Thailand will originate from both domestic and foreign fronts. The  public is worried about the surging cost of living - especially after  prices jumped as a result of the recent flood and won’t easily come  down. 

Deputy Premier Kittirat Na-Ranong, who is also the commerce minister, should do more, he said.

The political instability and disputes will deal a direct blow to the  economy. This should have been avoided because the Pheu Thai Party  scored a resounding victory in the general election, he said.

Economic growth was a paltry 1.1 per cent last year, according to the  Finance Ministry, he said. This is very low, and stemmed from the  mismanagement of the flood crisis. It's still unclear how much the  impact will extend into the current year.

As for the international outlook, the oil price is still a risk factor  but there appears to be less volatility, as bigger economies are  demanding less oil. Politics in the Middle East need to be carefully  monitored, he said.

The eurozone debt crisis also calls for close scrutiny, as it may have  serious consequences for the economy in terms of trade and tourists, he  said.

"The economic expansion will also be affected by political factors such  as the US presidential election, which will likely not be good news for  trading partner nations. The economic expansion in the US is also not  good and will impact the Thai economy. This is combined with the slower  growth of other trading partners like China and India. So the prospects  [for this year] are not as bright as they should be.

"As for the stimulation of domestic consumption, it will be up to the  government’s management, which includes fiscal tools, so I don’t think  there will be a crisis. Nevertheless, it will be better than 2011 unless  there is a severe political conflict or major natural calamity that the  government can’t handle," he said.

The government’s forecast for the economy to expand by 7 per cent this  year is possible because the base was very low last year. However, the  government should not get carried away with the growth figure as it  doesn’t reflect the true well-being of the nation, he said.

"I believe that some of the 15 million voters are beginning to be  disappointed as the government has failed to act as it advertised during  the election campaign. This includes the Bt15,000 minimum wage,  guaranteed rice price, debt moratorium and the expectation that living  costs will be reduced. So it is believed this will definitely have an  impact on the electoral base of Pheu Thai.

"The government must recognise that any attempt to stir conflict as a  result of acting for their own good should not be done, especially with  regard to any actions that serve Thaksin. This will be their death  trap," he said.

The latest Dusit poll shows that 52.2 per cent of respondents are  worried about the high cost of living, 42.7 per cent believe that  politics will be as chaotic this year because politicians remain the  same.

The survey of 2,114 people conducted from December 20-31 revealed that  more than 40 per cent are concerned about corruption, especially  budget-related graft.

On the economy, 44.2 per cent believe this year will be better,  although the government should quickly restore investor confidence.

On social issues, 53.6 per cent of respondents were concerned about  drugs and crime and other vices while 40.6 per cent expect no  improvement as the penalties for criminals are not grave enough.

----------


## Gerbil

^ I'll just step in here to save Calgary the bother  :Smile: 

Blah, Blah, Blah... Propaganda.... Amart... Blah.... Blah... Blah.... etc.

 :Smile:

----------


## LooseBowels

korn would have been better informing of "Death Traps" prior to the notorious ratchaprasong 91 assassinations he was complicit in. :Smile: 

All a bit hollow now mr korn after that eh?

You can't argue with that

----------


## Thaihome

> Certainly the UDD and offshoots are the most interesting phenomenon in contemporary Thai politics. Squabbling PT, Dem's and shifting political alliances are just the 'same old same old', frankly- it was no different in the 90's. Neither is the odd military crackdown or coup anything out of the mold if you read your Thai history- but the broad public reaction to it this time, after a long incubation period, was.


 
Certainly the UDD is an interesting phenomenon in contemporary Thai politics. What makes it interesting to me is the fact that the core grassroots membership is the exact same demographics that made up the Village Scouts and the Red Gaur in the 70s. 

These groups were formed and financed by provincial godfathers and influential politicians with money provided from outside sources. These groups used extreme demagoguery and hate filled speeches blaming all the peoples problems on an esoteric antagonist that needed to be removed by violent means. 

The parallels in the formation, funding, and tactics to whip up popular support between the Red Gaur/Village Scouts and the UDD are striking. Do you think it was an accident that Taksins pick for his first proxy PM was Samak?
TH

----------


## Butterfly

> What makes it interesting to me is the fact that the core “grassroots” membership is the exact same demographics that made up the Village Scouts and the Red Gaur in the 70’s.


indeed, interesting




> These groups were formed and financed by provincial godfathers and influential politicians with money provided from outside sources. These groups used extreme demagoguery and hate filled speeches blaming all the people’s problems on an esoteric antagonist that needed to be removed by violent means.


yep, sounds very familiar




> The parallels in the formation, funding, and tactics to whip up popular support between the Red Gaur/Village Scouts and the UDD are striking. Do you think it was an accident that Taksin’s pick for his first proxy PM was Samak?


of course not  :Smile:

----------


## Butterfly

I think Thaksin plan was to empower those fascist groups in UDD until a certain stage, and then use them as leverage to negotiate his return. 

If UDD leadership turns apeshit again like they did in 2010 but against Thaksin and the elite, the Thai military will need him to "decapitate" the movement in a popular "uprising", therefore making his return legitimate

we have to assume that UDD doesn't see their days are coming to an end, and will only fight back when presented with the inevitable betrayal.

----------


## DroversDog

> What makes it interesting to me is the fact that the core grassroots membership is the exact same demographics that made up the Village Scouts and the Red Gaur in the 70s.


What a load of bollocks. The makeup of the UDD is far broader then you are trying to make them out as.

----------


## DroversDog

> those fascist groups


Everybody else is a fascist to you Butters if they don't think like you.  :Smile:

----------


## Bobcock

I would say some members of the PAD are far closer to the Village Scouts and the Red Gaur than many members of the UDD.

That said, it's a typically limited Thai tactic that all probably aspire to follow.....

----------


## Butterfly

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> 
> those fascist groups
> 
> 
> Everybody else is a fascist to you Butters if they don't think like you.


nice try, but the thing is that the majority of pressure groups are fascist groups

nothing to do with what I like or do not like,

There are a lot of things I agree with the UDD, I just don't agree with their methods and leadership, and certain flaws in their political logic

----------


## DroversDog

> Originally Posted by DroversDog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Butterfly
> ...


This is just you Butters -



> The word fascist is sometimes used to denigrate people, institutions, or groups that would not describe themselves as ideologically fascist

----------


## DroversDog

> Originally Posted by Thaihome
> 
> 
> What makes it interesting to me is the fact that the core grassroots membership is the exact same demographics that made up the Village Scouts and the Red Gaur in the 70s.
> 
> 
> What a load of bollocks. The makeup of the UDD is far broader then you are trying to make them out as.


I am talking about the Red Gaur above rather then the village scouts. You are probably correct if you just talking about the Village Scouts as they contained a substantial percentage of the population at their prime and included Thai's from all parts of society.

----------


## Thaihome

> I would say some members of the PAD are far closer to the Village Scouts and the Red Gaur than many members of the UDD.
> 
> That said, it's a typically limited Thai tactic that all probably aspire to follow.....


 
You are refereeing to perceived political leanings, I was referring to demographics.  You would be hard pressed to find much support for the PAD in UDD areas, but that very area was the key support areas for both the Red Gaur and Village Scouts.   

Though the message of the Village Scouts revolved around nationalism, anti-communism, and mostly the monarch, the funding and the tactics as well as the core grassroots support are almost identical to the current UDD.  Replace communist with amart in the Village Scout rhetoric and it sounds almost the same.  If you know any UDD members, ask them if their father and/or grandfather belong to Village Scouts or the Red Gaur.

Though PAD is often portrayed as right wind in its political doctrine and is called a fascist organization, some have labeled it much closer to Leninism without the anti-monarchic part.   Thailand Jumped the Shark: Pluem on the PAD's Political Philosophy

TH

----------


## Calgary

*^*
*




 Originally Posted by Thaihome

You are refereeing to perceived political leanings, I was referring to demographics.


*

In their drive to denigrate the opposition via means other than elections, the PAD and their ilk are reaching into historical mumbo-jumbo, and trying to sound intelligent about it.

They know such historical over-generalizations cannot be proven or debated, so just be stating it as if someone in effect did analyze it, is typical dishonest PADite intellectualization. 

Given their penchant for revising history to fit their political agenda's, always puts this stuff in spurious perspective.

One of their most blatant, recent historical revision attempts to colour themselves the way they want, is to misrepresent their Fascist military assault on a political demonstration.

Trying to suggest because their offer of early elections was rejected, gave them cover for their assault. Those in the know are aware that this offer was accepted, subject to some modifications advancing negotiations to an agreement.

They quickly unleashed their military, suggesting they had no choice. As if an offer was a rejected agreement. They didn't want an agreement, as their intent was to teach these low-lifes a lesson. So to quickly characterize an offer as a rejected agreement, was a convenient bit of historical revisionism.

All of this is in a similar vein as painting the UDD with the same brush as discreditted historical events and entities.

PADite MO........... same old, same old.

But PADites being the type they are, eat this stuff up. They arrogantly think they are intellectually superior to other political forces, and filling their heads with this intellectual candy and dishonesty, supports their elevated perception of themselves.

(_Just a little red meat on the table, to kick off the New Year!)_

----------


## DroversDog

> You are refereeing to perceived political leanings, I was referring to demographics.  You would be hard pressed to find much support for the PAD in UDD areas, but that very area was the key support areas for both the Red Gaur and Village Scouts.


The Village Scouts and Red Gaur are quite different organisations. The Village Scouts were right through out the country including urban areas and at its height was around 20% of the adult population. The Red Gaur were mostly opposing vocational students which numbered around 25,000. Trying to label them as the same demographic is completely wrong and mis-leading.  ::chitown::

----------


## LooseBowels

Oh don't take any notice of that idiot th.
She's just a PAD yellow nuttess propogandist. :Smile: 

She says she's a supporter of Parliamentary Democracy but won't condem the fact that taksins removal was anything but Parliamentart Democracy.

You cant argue with that

----------


## Bobcock

Reckon LB has just come home from the pub..... good night?

----------


## StrontiumDog

*http://www.nationmultimedia.com/poli...-30173082.html
*
*Amnesty to Thaksin would spark conflict, Abhisit warns*

         THE NATION January 4, 2012  1:00 am 
 

*Opposition leader Abhisit Vejjajiva yesterday warned   the Yingluck Shinawatra government against amending the controversial   lese-majeste law or granting amnesty to fugitive former prime minister   Thaksin Shinawatra, saying such moves would spark conflicts in society.*

"I have always stressed that whatever issue causes conflict or is   problematic should be set aside so that Thai society can have a chance   to move forward. Those in politics should just remain still and do our   best job. Do not think that it's bizarre because society can move by   itself. The PM has said she will stay for a full term, and I think she   can if she doesn't cause troubles," said Abhisit, who also cited the   proposed amendment of the Constitution as one of the problematic issues.

Abhisit said the government should instead focus on tackling corruption   and reviving the economy, which has been dealt a blow by the flood. He   said the prices of basic commodities and energy had gone up and needed   the government's attention. The matter will be raised when the House of   Representatives meets today.

Regarding the proposal of Pheu Thai party-list MP Snoh Thienthong to   have Thaksin kept under house arrest in Thailand instead of being jailed   - like Aung San Suu Kyi of Burma - Abhisit said Snoh should find   something more constructive to do and allow the judicial system to take   its course.

Issues that the government should pay special attention to include   preparing the country to integrate with the Asean community of nations.

Deputy House Speaker Nikom Wairatpanich said people might have   differing expectations from the administration, especially on the need   to amend the 2007 junta-sponsored charter.

Nikom criticised those who are trying to link the charter amendment to   the move by civic groups to repeal the lese-majeste law as an attempt to   create confusion among the public. He said Thaksin should go through   proper judicial procedure, adding that any other move could lead to   renewed conflict.

In a related development, Democrat Party spokesman Chavanond   Intarakomalyasut accused the government of failing to keep its campaign   promise to help needy people. He cited the raising of prices of natural   gas for vehicles and liquefied petroleum gas and the reduction of   corporate tax from 30 per cent to 23 per cent as examples of policies   that benefit the rich instead of the poor.

Chavanond added that in some areas, lower-income flood victims had   still not been provided with adequate assistance by the government and   suggested that the government extend the period for guaranteeing the   purchase price of rice.

----------


## Pol the Pot

> The PM has said she will stay for a full term, and I think she   can if she doesn't cause troubles," said Abhisit


Ha, ha, ha, threats from the loser.

----------


## Mid

> Opposition leader Abhisit Vejjajiva yesterday warned the Yingluck Shinawatra government against amending the controversial lese-majeste law or granting amnesty to fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, saying such moves would spark conflicts in society.


of course Abhisit never had conflicts in society .......................  :mid:

----------


## LooseBowels

> He said Thaksin should go through proper judicial procedure


Which is what he should have gone through in the first place, and that ain't "coup-issued  law" and "tampered judiciary" and "contrived charges" 

Like the guy said, "proper judiciary" :Smile: 

You can't argue with that

----------


## Butterfly

> Reckon LB has just come home from the pub..... good night?


I reckon the pub is his home,

----------


## hazz

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> 
> Opposition leader Abhisit Vejjajiva yesterday warned the Yingluck Shinawatra government against amending the controversial lese-majeste law or granting amnesty to fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, saying such moves would spark conflicts in society.
> 
> 
> of course Abhisit never had conflicts in society .......................


As leader of the establishment party, he is presumably referring to conflicts with entitled  classes in society who's opinions count, rather than conflicts with the unimportant little people you are referring too.

Clearly he and a few others have a lot to learn and then intend to learn it the hard way.

----------


## Calgary

*



			
				http://www.nationmultimedia.com/poli...-30173082.html Amnesty to Thaksin would spark conflict, Abhisit warns
			
		

*

As with this article above, ya notice that the propaganda media tries to include flattering foto's of Abhi., every time it is feasible.

I have seen more foto's of him than the PM 

Agenda all over the place!

----------


## sabang

Abhi should really take a back seat for a while, and try and repair the shreds of his reputation. But surrounded as he is by a toadying minority and it's fawning 'press', he probably doesn't even realise it.

----------


## hazz

> Abhi should really take a back seat for a while, and try and repair the shreds of his reputation.


But that takes a courage, introspecting and a sense that one should accept responsibility for both the good and bad that you do in life. Properties you don't often see on political types in any country let a lone a country where culturally these things are just not done.

----------


## Butterfly

ah, sab, your true fascism self is revealing again, as expected

as soon as the opposition is trying to speak, you feel uncomfortable and just wish they would STFU

----------


## Bobcock

Whilst it's true every credible democracy needs a credible opposition, I would agree with sabang that Aphisit comes across as a bit toady at the moment and would do well to stick to parliamentary business rather than dishing out advice on how to lead. 

After all he has zero experience of actual leading.....

----------


## StrontiumDog

> *
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				http://www.nationmultimedia.com/poli...-30173082.html Amnesty to Thaksin would spark conflict, Abhisit warns
> 			
> 		
> 
> ...


Odd, as I haven't. I guess we read different things.

----------


## hazz

I suspect the same things, just from two very different points of view

----------


## Mid

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> He said Thaksin should go through proper judicial procedure
> 
> 
> Which is what he should have gone through in the first place, and that ain't "coup-issued  law" and "tampered judiciary" and "contrived charges" 
> 
> Like the guy said, "proper judiciary"
> 
> You can't argue with that



100% Correct  

and sadly this FACT escapes many here , who with the benefit of western education SHOULD know better .

.

----------


## nidhogg

> Originally Posted by LooseBowels
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> ...


and those should also not forget that it was thaksin who largely broke the judiciary in the first place.  People reaping what they sow is always amusing.

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by Mid

and sadly this FACT escapes many here , who with the benefit of western education SHOULD know better .


*

The above references judicial irregularities, but it can also apply to how easily these western educated types, coming from Democratic traditions, can be fooled with anti-democracy propaganda.

Propaganda from the English Language Amart media, such as the BKK. Post and Nation. But especially that other Farang political discussion Board.

Continually astounds me.

Either they are not too bright, or shows how effective propagandization can be.

I suspect the latter.

----------


## Butterfly

> and those should also not forget that it was thaksin who largely broke the judiciary in the first place. People reaping what they sow is always amusing.


indeed, but dummies like mid always miss half the story

----------


## hazz

^I would have to disagree. the justice system has always been broken. And it does seem to track the political winds quite quickly as we are beginning to witness now.

----------


## noelbino

> Originally Posted by Bobcock
> 
> 
> Reckon LB has just come home from the pub..... good night?
> 
> 
> I reckon the pub is his home,


Nah it's the dunny at any ladyboy bar.

----------


## Butterfly

> the justice system has always been broken


it was, but Thaksin took it to a whole new level

When army boys took over, they saw the benefits of the new justice system designed by Thaksin, and use it at their advantage

and now we have the Thaksin minions (read UDD) moaning about it, speak about poetic justice

----------


## LooseBowels

The judicial system under elected, legitimate, PM taksin was underpinned by democratic votes, the judicial system under the unelected, dictatorial, junta was underpinned by guns and fear. :Smile: 

You cant argue with that

----------


## DroversDog

> Originally Posted by Bobcock
> 
> 
> Reckon LB has just come home from the pub..... good night?
> 
> 
> I reckon the pub is his home,


Just like a cock up your ring piece aye Butters  :kma:

----------


## DroversDog

> Originally Posted by hazz
> 
> the justice system has always been broken
> 
> 
> it was, but Thaksin took it to a whole new level


Eating too many chilli's again Butters that eithen with your loosened bumhole, shite comes out from all passages!

----------


## nidhogg

> The judicial system under elected, legitimate, PM taksin was underpinned by democratic votes, the judicial system under the unelected, dictatorial, junta was underpinned by guns and fear.
> 
> You cant argue with that


LOL.  None so blind.

Thaksin may have been "elected" but he was never "legitimate" - re the assets concealment case where he made the judiciary his bitch.  That case is the direct root of all the following problems.  Thaksin got his money through corruption, kept it and made more through corruption and broke the country through his corruption.

As said before, it is ironic that the guy who played fast and lose with judicial process was eventually felled through judicial process.  Karma is a bitch.

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by nidhogg

Thaksin may have been "elected" but he was never "legitimate


*

Huh?

Abhi. was legitimate?

Elections, regardless how faulty, are illegitimate as a means of obtaining national leaders?

Let me quote from above Post:
_Propaganda from the English Language Amart media, such as the BKK. Post and Nation. But especially that other Farang political discussion Board, has really affected and misdirected Farang political perceptions of Thailand._

_Continually astounds me._

_Either they are not too bright, or shows how effective propagandization can be._*




 Originally Posted by nidhogg

That case is the direct root of all the following problems.


*

This is dead wrong Nidhogg.

To prevent rehashing some stuff all over, and to support the fact that this 'root cause' you suggest, is not the cause of all problems, why don't you pull up Bettyboo's Posts.

The 'cause' you suggest is parrotting State Media propaganda - almost word-for-word. Don't believe them Nidhogg. Rise above those idiots.

Bettyboo has enunciated more clearly than anyone on this Board, the root causes.

If all the subsequent problems are attributed to the root cause you suggest, than what is the root cause of today's political problems?......and believe me, they are the same Nidhogg.

Bettyboo's political Posts will explain that clearly for you. Much better than I can.

----------


## Butterfly

> Thaksin may have been "elected" but he was never "legitimate" - re the assets concealment case where he made the judiciary his bitch. That case is the direct root of all the following problems.


and since when being elected give you a free go to "manipulate" the judicial system for your own benefit, and again, this is completely lost by the usual red tards like LB, DD, Calgary, and all the other loons wagon

Thaksin was illegally elected, and that's a fact

the legal coup was there to correct an illegal situation, making IMO the coup completely legitimate

----------


## Butterfly

> Karma is a bitch.


I prefer to call it poetic justice, 

punished by the very system he used to abuse his power,

----------


## nidhogg

> This is dead wrong Nidhogg.


You talk about Thai politics like virgins talk about sex: with enthusiasm and ignorance.

----------


## Butterfly

> You talk about Thai politics like virgins talk about sex: with enthusiasm and ignorance.


beautiful  :rofl:

----------


## Calgary

> Originally Posted by Calgary
> 
> 
> This is dead wrong Nidhogg.
> 
> 
> You talk about Thai politics like virgins talk about sex: with enthusiasm and ignorance.


LOL.....Yeah, that about describes virgins.

I will Let others be the judge of my political views however Nidhogg.

In the meantime, follow my research suggestions above, and lets' talk again.

----------


## nidhogg

> In the meantime, follow my research suggestions above, and lets' talk again.


No point. You are one of those fools who think there is a "good side" and a "bad side" in Thai politics. There is not. There is a "very bad corrupt side" and a well, "very bad corrupt side" - and they are not even different sides of the same coin!

How do you think Thaksin got his wealth? Through corruption and working hand in hand for decades with the bloody same group that he later turned on.

Thaksin never was, and never will be about the people. He went into politics for one reason ONLY. To safe guard HIS buisness interests - nowt to do with 'the common people". 

He was smart enough to know that to build his power base he had to throw a few crumbs to the masses - and thats what they were. Politics and policies based on nothing more than "cake today and cake tomorrow". He did not give a shit if he ran the country down, only that HIS assets and interests were protected.

Are the dems better? No, no and no. Their sole strategy is based upon protection of the group wealth. No different, no better, no worse. When you understand THAT point, we can talk.

----------


## Butterfly

> Are the dems better? No, no and no. Their sole strategy is based upon protection of the group wealth. No different, no better, no worse. Whe you understand THAT point, we can talk.


to make it worse, some partisans in UDD hoping for change have been "sold out" (ask Stevie) so they could join the "dark side" with the rest of Thaksin gang

it's a hopeless situation, and all we can hope for is that there is no more violence like the reds tried to play in May 2010

----------


## Calgary

*^^*
*




 Originally Posted by nidhogg

How do you think Thaksin got his wealth?


*
_




 Originally Posted by nidhogg

Thaksin never was, and never will be about the people


_
_




 Originally Posted by nidhogg

He was smart enough to know that to build his power base he had to throw a few crumbs to the masses


_

Try to rise above the Thaksin thing Nidhogg.

State propaganda would be pleased to get you stuck there, as they have many other Farangs.

I am speaking of political understanding on a macro scale.

My research suggestions point you in that direction - Bettyboo's political Posts.

Hopefully they will help you and others gain a non-propagandistic perspective.

----------


## nidhogg

^ where in Thailand are you based, and how long you been here?

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by Calgary
> 
> 
>  
> In the meantime, follow my research suggestions above, and lets' talk again.
> 
> 
> No point. You are one of those fools who think there is a "good side" and a "bad side" in Thai politics. There is not. There is a "very bad corrupt side" and a well, "very bad corrupt side" - and they are not even different sides of the same coin!
> 
> ...


Indeed....spot on. It doesn't matter that I say it, you say it and others say it. Calgary (and others) will never get it. He's been drinking the Kool-aid for a long time now....and he's lost touch with reality.

I bet Calgary and a few others here genuinely believe Thaksin was a great businessman....and have no idea about how he made his wealth (even though it has been posted here numerous time, watch their brains delete the information).

----------


## sabang

> I bet Calgary and a few others here genuinely believe Thaksin was a great businessman..


And you of course, his right hand man and mentor, know that he wasn't.  :rofl: 

You will never cease going off on these tangents, all of you, because you just cannot confront the Truth, because of the hoodwink of your prejudice concerning one person (an emotional figurehead, really). The largest democratic majority in the history of Thailand was overthrown by illegal military Coup, and this nation was damaged, it's institutions further corrupted, and it's people divided as a result. A direct result.

But no, that Truth is just too hard, too blatant, too 'in your face'. 
Cue- Thaksin is a Nazi, a Fascist.
Cue- Thaksin was not a good businessman.
Cue- Thaksin is a traitor (not the coup conspirators :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): )
Cue- Thaksin funds the Reds, they will soon collapse
Cue- Thaksin, Thaksin, Thaksin, blah blah blah.

The Nile is a river in Egypt.

----------


## Butterfly

^ sab, you are still missing the point about Democracy  :Smile: 

hint: it's not about a leader or his election

----------


## sabang

> hint: it's not about a leader or his election


Nope- and neither is it about Thaksin. You guys really do overestimate the man.

----------


## nidhogg

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> hint: it's not about a leader or his election
> 
> 
> Nope- and neither is it about Thaksin. You guys really do overestimate the man.


Indeed.  Pure hapstance that the sucessors in leadership of his party (and its reincarnations) included his brother-in-law and his sister.....

----------


## sabang

Yes, is it finally dawning on the opposition that by (ineffectually) demonising the man, you are lionising him to many more people? The problem is the people, the cadre, that _You_ are defending.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> I bet Calgary and a few others here genuinely believe Thaksin was a great businessman..
> 
> 
> And you of course, his right hand man and mentor, know that he wasn't. 
> 
> You will never cease going off on these tangents, all of you, because you just cannot confront the Truth, because of the hoodwink of your prejudice concerning one person (an emotional figurehead, really). The largest democratic majority in the history of Thailand was overthrown by illegal military Coup, and this nation was damaged, it's institutions further corrupted, and it's people divided as a result. A direct result.
> 
> ...


No idea what you are talking about Sabang, you appear to think that I think these things, which is a little strange.

The coup is one issue and should remain separate. It was an illegal act and undemocratic. Thaksin was the victim of that and I feel an element of sympathy for him in what transpired. 

I don't think Thaksin was a traitor and I've no idea why you think I think that, as it appears you do. I view him in the same light as I view Hun Sen, Putin, Berlusconi and George W Bush. Utter disdain. 

I also don't think he is a Nazi or fascist. Again, resorting to such lame accusations is indicative of desperation on your part and a sign that you've lost the argument. I am sure you can do better than that. 

As regards Thaksin's business acumen, there is quite a lot of information on how he was very fortunate to benefit from events that occurred here (given inside info. it is alleged). But that isn't unusual here. You might want to read more on this. It is quite enlightening. 

And finally, he did fund the reds. Lots of evidence to say he did (with help from other wealthy folks too). And we all know why....my only hope is that it comes back to haunt him and the reds move away from Thaksin and his bunch of vile sycophants.  Again, you appear to have forgotten a lot about this (the funding). I can only assume your mind deletes information that you find inconvenient....

----------


## hazz

We have the dems that represent the interests of the existing elite who have become rich by virtue of their land, property and monopolies interests within this country. They see the route to power being though institutions and understand the need to throw them enough scraps to keep them on side.

We have PT what represents the interests of second and third tier elites, who feel their time has come to move up a tier tier two. They see the route to power being the voters and understand the need to throw then a few scraps to keep them on side.

Both are patronage networks, both have a vested interest in keeping thailand very much the way it is and the last thing either group wants is empowerment or wealth sharing with either group. and in both cases their respective protest groups are just a useful tool to be discarded once its has survey its purpose as PAD discovered with the dems and I am sure UDD will discover over the next year or two. 

On the basis that PT is about Taksin's patronage network and little to do with the UDD, I have a prediction. I would suggest that everything is going to be about bringing the boss home. The action being taken against mark et al, the removal of the coup leaders amnesty and that those in the army and government invalid in the killing in april-may 2010 should not be part of any reconciliation is simply posturing to make them see that restoring taksin's amarat privileges and letting him return triumphant as far more palpable than the alternative. I.E there will be reconciliation in 2012; impunity will be given to everybody for everything and UDD can whistle if they think anyone will be held accountable for the 2010 killings. And as part of this reconciliation all those little people who suffered, died or were injured in 2010 will be as forgotten as those of 2009. Yes this will piss off the rank and file UDD, but from now on its as important to PT as PAD are to the dems.

----------


## Butterfly

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> hint: it's not about a leader or his election
> 
> 
> Nope- and neither is it about Thaksin. You guys really do overestimate the man.


no we don't, we just think his followers are idiots

----------


## sabang

The results of the coup speak for themselves- just who are the idiots?

----------


## Butterfly

the results are that we can confirm that they are idiots ready to die for a corrupt man,

why do they need a billionaire to have their voice heard is quite telling of the level of idiocy these people are

----------


## hazz

Well given we have had so many coups non of which seemed to have worked my any objective measure of reality, I can only think that you must be refuring to this thai equivalents this these chaps where at 1:28, they discuss the diabolically clever idea of using the same failed plan for the 18th time.

----------


## Gerbil

> Try to rise above the Thaksin thing Nidhogg.


Maybe you should follow your own advice and change your own bloody signature then!

----------


## hazz

^'Its not about taksin' does seem to be a common retort to anything seen as anti taksin, when nothing better comes to mind

----------


## Calgary

*[QUOTE="sabang"]Yes, is it finally dawning on the opposition that by (ineffectually) demonising the man, you are lionising him to many more people? The problem is the people, the cadre, that You are defending.[/QUOTE*]

I am amazed at how effectively the propaganda media machine, is able to trap so many Farangs in the Thaksin roundabout.

It certainly accomplishes the objective preventing the analysis of a macro Thailand political overview, which runs the risk of exposing them, and all their elements.

----------


## hazz

^You are a rather good example of what can happen when you believe everything you are spoon fed by those around you. 

Its a shame that whilst you can see the the risk we all face of falling into this trap, you seem to be oblivious that you have done this yourself.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> I would say some members of the PAD are far closer to the Village Scouts and the Red Gaur than many members of the UDD.
> 
> That said, it's a typically limited Thai tactic that all probably aspire to follow.....


Depends on what they aspire to follow. Do they all want to kill socialists? I doubt it, given many members of the UDD are the latter. As for Korn the dickhead and his 'chatty' wife, you just know he's the annointed one by (ya know).

----------


## tomta

> And finally, he did fund the reds. Lots of evidence to say he did (with help from other wealthy folks too).


This is not a point-making question. I'd genuinely  like an answer. I feel that Thaksin probably has funded the reds. It would be surprising if he hadn't. But I've never seen any real evidence - apart from CRES mindmaps - on this. Lots  of assertions and columns in The Nation but nothing that would be considered evidential in a properly constituted court of law. It's just something that people seem to know.

So I'd appreciate it if you could point me in the direction of the evidence.

----------


## tomta

[quote=tomta;1981629]


> the legal coup was there to  correct an illegal situation, making IMO the coup completely  legitimate



Not one of the justifications that the coup leaders gave at the time.  Thy never said that the election itself or his status as PM was  "illegal" . They just said he was a bad man not a good man.

These coupsters need your creative mind, butterfly. At what point did the coup become legal.? After  or before it was committed? You can provide  better excuses, The coup was illegal at the time it was committed  and was only made "legal" by subsequent decrees. I guess it was legal  then.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> And finally, he did fund the reds. Lots of evidence to say he did (with help from other wealthy folks too).
> 
> 
> This is not a point-making question. I'd genuinely  like an answer. I feel that Thaksin probably has funded the reds. It would be surprising if he hadn't. But I've never seen any real evidence - apart from CRES mindmaps - on this. Lots  of assertions and columns in The Nation but nothing that would be considered evidential in a properly constituted court of law. It's just something that people seem to know.
> 
> So I'd appreciate it if you could point me in the direction of the evidence.


Google is your friend. I'm not wasting my time doing something for you, that you are perfectly capable of doing yourself. It has also been posted here before.

Try "Thaksin red shirt funding" in Google or words to that effect.

Really mate, it isn't difficult.

----------


## StrontiumDog

Ok, I did say I'd reply. So here goes. Although I know it is likely to be a complete waste of time on my part....but dem's da breaks, right? 




> Originally Posted by SteveCM
> 
> *^ Unaddressed cause of Thailand scars - FT.com Letters December 22, 2011
>  From Mr Robert R. Amsterdam. 
> 
> Sir, 
> 1.Your newspapers editorial Thai trouble (December 18) argues that  Thailands government would be ill advised to engineer the return of  former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra. 
> 
> 2.The editorial surmises: If Mr Thaksin were to return, there is a  serious risk that the bitter ideological divisions that have scarred  Thai politics since his ousting in a 2006 coup would be reactivated.* 
> ...


The dishonest part of this is ignoring that Thaksin is actually part and parcel of the divisions and has helped to foster them. It has been all part of the plan, create a powerful force as leverage. It has worked. However, it may yet backfire on Thaksin... It is a fairly easy (lazy) conclusion to draw that Thaksin's return would indeed create more conflict. Recent incidents have shown people are ready to come out and protest again. 




> Originally Posted by SteveCM
> 
> *^ Unaddressed cause of Thailand scars - FT.com Letters December 22, 2011
>  From Mr Robert R. Amsterdam. 
> 
> 3.Those divisions have, in fact, never been deactivated.*
> 
> 
> _
> Sentence Three: Yes, seems right, the ideological divisions  continue to exist._


Yes, because nothing has been resolved. Thaksin is part of the problem and solution in all this. He has a responsibility in helping to maintain these divisions. Something which is missing from Amsterdam's piece....No surprise. It is amusing to see how he places the blame and responsibility elsewhere throughout this piece, as if Thaksin with his huge support, massive financial muscle and sister as PM is somehow a powerless victim of all that has transpired. Ah, bless. 




> Originally Posted by SteveCM
> 
> *^ Unaddressed cause of Thailand scars - FT.com Letters December 22, 2011
>  From Mr Robert R. Amsterdam. 
> 
> 4.While the Thai people now have a government of their own choosing, the  root cause of such divisions  the destruction of the rule of law  has  yet to be addressed.*
> 
> 
>  _Sentence Four: Yes , from either side of the equation, the destruction  of the rule of law has not been addressed. You mention yourself, SD,  that the bigger charges that we were led to believe were being prepared  against Thaksin - massive corruption, Tak Bai etc - that the military  government and the PAD  justified the coup with are still not ready.  They had an army government  and a compliant Democrat government for  four years to do this. I don't thyink Abhisit's government was actively  pursuing them at alll.
> ...


_

_Again, Amsterdam ignores the culture of impunity that has existed in Thailand for decades. He ignores the past here. The coup was nothing new. The lack of charges being brought against the PAD nothing new. Just ask Chalerm....Thaksin also enjoyed that culture of impunity whilst in power (and before). It is one of the ironies of so much here. Everyone cries foul when they are on the receiving end of it....but wont say a word when they are the beneficiary. Thaksin certainly enjoyed the culture of impunity here whilst in power....

As regards your point about his employer. That is, if anything, agreeing with my point and further reinforcing it, as it exposes the hypocrisy at work here. And the manipulation going on. Amsterdam is working for his employer and does it well. However, for me, that means that most of what he writes should be taken with that in mind, and as with all lawyers, treated with the contempt it deserves. 




> Originally Posted by SteveCM
> 
> 
> 5.The generals who staged an illegal coup in 2006, interrupting 15 years  of democratic rule, remain beyond the reach of the law, as do the  civilian and military officials responsible for the deaths of more than  80 protesters in 2010. 
> 
> 6.Dr Thaksin, however, remains in exile due to his refusal to serve an  absurd sentence handed down by a court perceived as being in the pocket  of his sworn enemies. 
> 
> 7.Contrary to the statement made in your editorial, Dr Thaksin was not convicted of corruption. 
> 
> ...


I think you are either being disingenuous or are genuinely ignorant of how things work here. 

There is no rule of law here. Only the little people go to jail. The ruling elite, of which Thaksin and his associates are very much a part, usually don't. Thaksin got too big for his boots. That's all. There's no mystery. No great conspiracy. It is what it is. He overreached....and he hasn't been to jail yet. 

Where you fail Tomta, is that you are drawn into the arguments as presented. What Amsterdam writes sounds fair and of course what he writes is also true, but it doesn't give the full picture. 

A fine example is this point..

_14.The army and the conservative elite should no longer be permitted to treat a country of 70m people as their own fiefdom._ 

Irrelevant of what transpires in relation to Thaksin, this wont change, it is a sensationalist and emotive line. It sounds great, but it is utterly disingenuous. Oh wouldn't it be nice if such change could occur? Not going to happen. Even if Thaksin becomes Prime Minister again, this wont change...or even worse, we'll have Thaksin's army and conservative elite treating the country as their fiefdom. 

I've skipped several points, as I really don't have time to write a longer reply than this. It is now 2am and I have a lot to do tomorrow. Sorry for the brevity and for the delay in getting back to you (I had forgotten). If I get time i will endeavour to look at some of the points I've missed.

----------


## tomta

> Thaksin red shirt funding


You are making the point that Thaksin funded the reds. I'm not making that point - I have no evidence for it - though I accept that it might be true. Presumably you have the evidence so i'm asking if you can give it to me. If it's too difficult, fine, don't bother. I followed your googling advice and I found this as no. 1 on the list

Land Destroyer: Corporate-funded "People's" Movement

complete madness.

No 2 was a Wikipedia entry on Yingluck.

I could have gone on for hours but Google is not my friend. You are. You know about these things. So why not tell me?

SD, I'm just asking for a shortcut. If you have the information, why not give it to me. It would be quicker and easier than me googling. Or you could give me a rough idea where it is on this website, if that's easier.

thanks for your other response. I'll look at that tomorrow.

----------


## tomta

> Depends on what they aspire to follow. Do they all want to kill socialists? I doubt it, given many members of the UDD are the latter. As for Korn the dickhead and his 'chatty' wife, you just know he's the annointed one by (ya know).


Well, I sort of know who you mean by "ya know"  and I am aware of the constraints we are under but could you say a little bit more.  To my mind there  could be three or four "ya knows", Could you tell me a little bit more.

----------


## LooseBowels

> You are one of those fools who think there is a "good side" and a "bad side" in Thai politics


And you are one of those fools who doesn't think there is a "right way"  and a "wrong way".

You cant argue with that

----------


## LooseBowels

Trouble with the PAD yellow nutter supporters on here is that they are still clinging to illegal coup-issued law and the contrived charges and tampered judiciary to try and make some hollow strawman point against the great elected PM taksin.

The same old made up bullshit repeated over and over

Well guys you lost, and your gonna lose the next one, and the next one, get over it.

Put your strawman charges up before a legitimate court fashioned on the pillar of electoral democracy if you dare?

Khun taksin always was and still is and always will be the choice of the people.

Not as daft as you PAD yellow nutters, are they.

You cant argue with that

----------


## nidhogg

> Well guys you lost, and your gonna lose the next one, and the next one, get over it.


You guys lost????   :rofl: 

You are clearly one of those wankers who think anyone here has a stake in the issue.  get it clear - we don't.

You guys who get so worked up about all this make me laugh.  Get it through your skull - you ain't got a stake, I ain't got a stake - no farang has a stake.

The differences between "red" and "yellow" are wafer thin compared to the difference between "Thai" and "farang".

----------


## LooseBowels

^ and the difference between the "right way" and the "wrong way"......loser




> make me laugh


Well, the winners do laugh, the losers ( you)  can please yoursells

----------


## LooseBowels

> The coup is one issue and should remain separate


Wrong.

The coup is the only issue, all the current illegitimacy radiates from the illegal coup.
The illegitemacy and the coup sponsors must be reset.

You decry the coup itself, but you dont decry its illegitemacy , its sponsors, or its illegal, undemocratic effects.

You can't argue with that

----------


## nidhogg

> ^ and the difference between the "right way" and the "wrong way"......loser
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by nidhogg
> 
> ...


 
You are a bit comprehension challenged, aren't you?

Did you see this in my earlier post:




> Are the dems better? No, no and no. Their sole strategy is based upon protection of the group wealth. No different, no better, no worse.


I know there is a right way and a wrong way, my point is the right way ain't present in Thailand.

----------


## LooseBowels

> Ok, I did say I'd reply. So here goes. Although I know it is likely to be a complete waste of time on my part....but dem's da breaks, right?


Aw don't be like that itchy, I thought the structure, composition, and words,  without doubt and undeniably demonstrated the futility of care in the community   :Smile: 

You can't argue with that

----------


## Gerbil

> no farang has a stake.


Not quite true, some of us have citizenship you know  :Smile:  (and I'd say its a safe bet that the number on TD can be counted on one hand) But yes, 99.99% dont have a stake.

----------


## nidhogg

> Originally Posted by nidhogg
> 
> no farang has a stake.
> 
> 
> Not quite true, some of us have citizenship you know  (and I'd say its a safe bet that the number on TD can be counted on one hand) But yes, 99.99% dont have a stake.


 
Caveat noted.  You can pick sides if you have citizenship and as a stakeholder.  

Still think your choice is between the devil and the deep blue sea, but some have trouble understanding that......

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by nidhogg

Still think your choice is between the devil and the deep blue sea, but some have trouble understanding that


*

Not agreeing does not denote lack of understanding.

So I take it, you will not be expanding your perspectives as I suggested Nidhogg?

But being on this Board is at least a beginning.

One can expand political perspectives through osmosis, if nothing else.

Just consider the alternative on that other Farang political discussion Board.

----------


## nidhogg

^ you are a condescending knob aren't you?

Anyway, like I asked before - how long have you been living in Thailand?

..

----------


## Butterfly

> ^'Its not about taksin' does seem to be a common retort to anything seen as anti taksin, when nothing better comes to mind


it's the stock response we have from sab and friends because they have nothing to add or retort against the valid accusations we make on UDD

----------


## Butterfly

> Anyway, like I asked before - how long have you been living in Thailand?


it's a silly question, nidhogg, he is Thai and a PAD supporter playing games with you, don't fall for it  :Smile:

----------


## crippen

Moves are already afoot to bring back Thaksin.


6 months since the thread opened,and counting!     

Seems a bit slow,even for the L.o S.

 ::chitown::

----------


## StrontiumDog

> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by nidhogg
> 
> Still think your choice is between the devil and the deep blue sea, but some have trouble understanding that
> 
> ...


Shouldn't you be reading about the "Peoples Information Centre"? You know, that red shirt group that did lots of work about red shirts in prisons here....that you hadn't heard of....and neither had your 'friends'.

----------


## StrontiumDog

Bangkok Post : Thaksin won't accept house arrest, no matter how comfortable

IN Print

*Thaksin won't accept house arrest, no matter how comfortable*
Published:  7/01/2012 at 12:00 AMNewspaper section: News
 It is definite that former prime minister  Thaksin Shinawatra will not accept the compromise proposal from Sanoh  Thiengthong, veteran politician and Pheu Thai list MP, that he be  detained in a comfortable place in Thailand, or so-called house arrest,  to serve his two-year jail term before being granted a royal pardon,  noted Thai Rath.

 
_Thaksin Shinawatra will reward loyalty in his absence._

 Thaksin's attitude was revealed by his personal legal lawyer and former foreign minister Noppadol Pattama.

 Mr Noppadol said that accepting the compromise would mean that  Thaksin and his supporters are also accepting the Supreme Court's ruling  which came after he was toppled by the 2006 coup.

 In short, Thaksin insists on revoking any negative ramifications against him as the result of the coup.

 Pheu Thai list MP and United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship  (UDD) leader Jatuporn Phromphan also rejected Mr Sanoh's proposal,  saying Thaksin was a victim of the coup and should not accept injustice,  whether he is detained in jail or at his own home.

 Judging from the reactions of the two loyal followers who have direct  access to Thaksin, Mr Sanoh should keep quiet as the ousted premier is  not one to accommodate neutral people. Either you are with him or  against him.

 Now that the Yingluck Shinawatra administration has been in power for  almost half a year, it should be time for Thaksin to reward his most  loyal followers who fought for him. It is expected that Mr Jatuporn and  Natthawut Saikuea, another Pheu Thai list MP, will be rewarded with  seats in the first cabinet reshuffle expected after Chinese New Year on  Jan 23.

 The two will also have the task of continually whipping up red shirt  support for the Pheu Thai government's attempt to amend the  constitution, issue an amnesty law and be in the vanguard to protect Ms  Yingluck from criticism.

 The second cabinet reshuffle should occur in May when Thaksin has a  wider variety of capable people to choose from, notably among those 111  former executives of Thai Rak Thai (TRT) who were banned from politics  for five years when the party was dissolved in 2007. Thaksin wants to  accelerate the Yingluck administration's achievements as much as  possible so that his youngest sister will stay as head of the government  for as long as possible.

 To do that, professional administrators, especially those who showed  they were competent during the TRT government, must be recruited to  shore up confidence in the Yingluck government, which was badly shaken  during the massive flood of 2011. Of course this will not be easy as the  incumbents will not relinquish their seats easily.

 Thai Rath does not believe Thaksin will abandon loyal followers just  to recruit capable former TRT executives. It's known that most have  retired from politics or stayed neutral, while a few have remained very  loyal.

 It's these capable and loyal TRT executives who will be called upon  to help Ms Yingluck improve the government's performance and image.

 After the May reshuffle, it will be time to implement measures to  help the big boss come home without facing even one day in jail.

 Even though Thaksin seemingly is in command of the Yingluck  government, some capable former TRT executives such as Suwat  Liptapanlop, Pinit Jarusombat, Preecha Laohapongchana and Sonthaya  Khunphluem, are content to play neutral as they believe Thaksin's forces  and the opposition camp are still far too engaged in political  manoeuvring.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> Thaksin red shirt funding
> 
> 
> You are making the point that Thaksin funded the reds. I'm not making that point - I have no evidence for it - though I accept that it might be true. Presumably you have the evidence so i'm asking if you can give it to me. If it's too difficult, fine, don't bother. I followed your googling advice and I found this as no. 1 on the list
> 
> Land Destroyer: Corporate-funded "People's" Movement
> 
> ...


You may want to look a little further, land destroyer is hardly reputable.

Bangkok Post : UDD leader admits protest funds come from Thaksin

*UDD leader admits protest funds come from Thaksin*
Published: 18/05/2010 at 12:00 AMNewspaper section: News
_A United Front for Democracy against  Dictatorship leader has admitted the red shirt rally has received  financial support from ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and  Khunying Sudarat Keyuraphan, the former deputy leader of the dissolved  Thai Rak Thai party ._

_"I accept that Thaksin himself and some politicians, including  Khunying Sudarat, have given us financial support, as have other donors,  but I don't know how much they've donated," UDD co-leader Jaran  Dithapichai said on the Ratchaprasong rally stage last night._

_"What's  wrong with that? Rallies have costs and we need donors. Even other UDD  members and myself have had to spend our personal funds on the rally."_

-----
But of course Thaksin denied it at the time...

Thailand's ex-PM Thaksin predicts guerrilla war | Reuters

_Both Red Shirt leaders and Thaksin deny he funded the anti-government movement._

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> You guys who get so worked up about all this make me laugh. Get it through your skull - you ain't got a stake, I ain't got a stake - no farang has a stake.


 
You do if you have any sense of nationhood and fairness - and most certianly you have a stake if you're married to a Thai and have Thai-Farang kids. Their future aspirations are tied up in the aspirations of "their" country. So their future is your future as well to a degree.

Of course if you're just a retired sexpat living here then I guess it matters little to you - but then why waste your time reading and posting in this forum to slag off those who do care? Maybe you should "stick" to reading Stickman's every column (if you can find your way through all the ads).

----------


## nidhogg

> Originally Posted by nidhogg
> 
> 
>  
> You guys who get so worked up about all this make me laugh. Get it through your skull - you ain't got a stake, I ain't got a stake - no farang has a stake.
> 
> 
> 
>  
> You do if you have any sense of nationhood and fairness - and most certianly you have a stake if you're married to a Thai and have Thai-Farang kids. Their future aspirations are tied up in the aspirations of "their" country. So their future is your future as well to a degree.


I work here, and have a family here.  And if wishes were fishes we would all be rich.  Dream on if you think having connections (work/family/investments) here makes you a "stakeholder" - wake up and smell the poo - it don't.

To the Thais, your opinions simply don't matter, and however much you whinge, rant and bitch one here - that will never change.

----------


## Mid

> Try "Thaksin red shirt funding" in Google or words to that effect.  Really mate, it isn't difficult.


indeed it's not , pity IT DOES NOT turn up any evidence the support the premise  :mid:

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by nidhogg
> ...


What the fuck are you ranting about - of course you have a stake. You have a family here you say (I'm talking about a "Thai" family - kids born here etc - not a foreign family). It's not your opinion that matters it's your actions to defend the rights of your family (e.g. kids) to inherit a country that works for the benefit of them and not a privileged few - as it works now. You're the one that needs to open your eyes if you think being some kind of farang uncle tom is preferable to speaking out and encouraging positive change that will benefit your own kids. And have your red back dickhead..

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by nidhogg

To the Thais, your opinions simply don't matter, and however much you whinge, rant and bitch one here - that will never change


*Here we go again.

Every once in awhile, someone pops up to make the surprising, insightful observation that us Farangs are inconsequential, and that therefore, all opinionating on here must be by idiots.

Lets simply be clear about two things:
#1 - Farangs are inconsequential regarding Thai politics, regardless whether they have a stake. Our opinions don't mean 'nuthin"...NUTHIN!

#2 - Political junkies by their very nature opinionate about Politics......whether it be in Timbuktu or Thailand....... They have a right to do so......... That is what they do......... And they do it on Political discussion Boards such as this one, with great gusto.So whoever has a problem with that, what the hell are they doing on TD.

----------


## Calgary

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> Try "Thaksin red shirt funding" in Google or words to that effect. Really mate, it isn't difficult.
> 
> 
> indeed it's not , pity IT DOES NOT turn up any evidence the support the premise


Just another old saw the propaganda media uses to denigrate the UDD/Red Shirts.

Applying their agenda of diminishing the motives of these people. They don't like the fact that their PADite brethren are a top-down creation, and the Red Shirts a bottom up reaction to a coup . So they need to denigrate them. 

Undoubtedly, moneyed people support their political choices, including well-heeled Red Shirts giving money to the Red Shirts. Where does one think the funding for the Airport occupiers came from. (Never mind their taxpayer funded military killing taxpayers - talk about biting the hand that feeds you)

This Amart agenda is particularly annoying to those of us who assisted Red Shirt friends in all their fund raising efforts. Soliciting funds to pay petrol for transport, hiring busses, buying some food, etc.

Fund raising efforts, including in part going hat-in-hand to those who might contribute, raffling off merchandise such as Gold necklaces, selling 50-50 tickets at events, organizing concerts and rallies where they sold tables, etc. etc.

Rich people sympathetic to the Red Shirts undoubtedly donated to their rallies as all political movements are funded, but the rank and file also did a hell-of-a-lot.

To diminish them is not only disrespectful but ignorant.

----------


## nostromo

> people who advertise their IQ levels to make a point on an anonymous message board don't seem to be really that smart after all
> 
> more likely pretentious idiots with insecurity issues,
> 
> I suspect they score in the lowest percentile, close to Thais and monkeys


I have just logged in after a first busy week at work of 2555 and checking out what I missed since my last posts, and there were several I would want to respond to, but call it your luck I have had enough now.

You equate Thais to monkeys? WTF you do here then? Bugger old monkeys?

You will remain to be a fucking racist nazi to me, Belgium during WW2? Do send me some more reds. 

If you think Thais are monkeys fcuk let them stamp that into your passport.

----------


## Gerbil

> Lets simply be clear about two things:
> #1 - Farangs are inconsequential regarding Thai politics, regardless whether they have a stake. Our opinions don't mean 'nuthin"...NUTHIN!
> 
> #2 - Political junkies by their very nature opinionate about Politics......whether it be in Timbuktu or Thailand....... They have a right to do so......... That is what they do......... And they do it on Political discussion Boards such as this one, with great gusto.
> So whoever has a problem with that, what the hell are they doing on TD.


Dear Twat.

#1 As pointed out, a number of us farangs *do* have Thai citizenship.
#2 This is *not* a Political Discussion Board - The 'Mission Statement' is: *The Thailand expat forum for Travel, Lifestyle and Fun.*

Of course, with your blinkered anti-democratic views where you don't believe that anyone with an opinion different to yours does not deserve a voice, you have decided to (allegedly) ignore me.  :Smile: 

Come on EN, own up - You are Calgary, good troll I have to admit.  :Smile:

----------


## Gerbil

> Blah, Blah Blah, Blah...


Come on, we're still waiting for an answer to why you and your 'red shirt contacts' are so ignorant of the "People's Information Center"?

----------


## nostromo

> Thaksin was illegally elected, and that's a fact


As you said to me, take your meds. 

Difference between us being as for your red message to me I didnt have any meds to take but you seriously need some if you are serious in saying that. Shooting (more) heroin into your eyeballs seems to be favourable option now for you. Does it hurt, or you dont feel? Perhaps you should discuss your feelings with a Real Psychologist SD, oh you have already and no help you need a Psychiatrist who can issue you the drugs you need. Oh again you have one in Soi Nigeria already. Right. Then just...

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by sabang
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> ...


I am shocked to hear SD knows about Lolitas! That must be one of capital sins for catholics? 

I am either so much manipulated by you that it sort of reverses itself like in this sci-fi movie... :Smile:  or I never believed a word you said  :Smile:  well, in this drama, you, believing being a Cicero and a great writer, speaker, accusing me being most retarded human ever or whatever, lets see the audience applaud you :Smile:   (I can hear already: Butters, Gerbil, clapping their hands red until heart failure... and?)

----------


## Tom Sawyer

Come on Gerbil you and Ron Paul and Ayn Rand - the breakfast club

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> 
> those fascist groups
> 
> 
> Everybody else is a fascist to you Butters if they don't think like you.


I have noticed that too :Smile:  While he/she/3rd sex makes quite racists comments and has weird opinions against Thais. Did Goebbels really die or is it BF?

----------


## Gerbil

^^ They're septics aren't they? US politics/philosophy holds no interest for me. (And I'm never up in time for breakfast  :Smile: )

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by Mid
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by LooseBowels
> ...


Why do you say Thaksin broke judiciary? What is your proof, or even decent comment to that? 

I think you just read that 7 years ago in your fav politically-aligned newspaper.

You know, there has been corruption in Thailand for a long time, as in many countries in this area, some of which have been able to get away from that system (I can not finish this sentence without mentioning Singapore).

----------


## Gerbil

> Why do you say Thaksin broke judiciary? What is your proof, or even decent comment to that?


Lunch boxes stuffed full of money delivered to the court would be a good start.....

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by Calgary
> 
> 
>  
> In the meantime, follow my research suggestions above, and lets' talk again.
> 
> 
> No point. You are one of those fools who think there is a "good side" and a "bad side" in Thai politics. There is not. There is a "very bad corrupt side" and a well, "very bad corrupt side" - and they are not even different sides of the same coin!
> 
> ...


If you bother to take a look at any reliable source how Thaksin made his fortune is in business, not on politics - he became politician on later age when he was already a billionaire. 

Any sins Thaksin made and sure, he have made some, and have I. But as we are not catholics we dont care about church but try to do good (can not vouch for the other gentleman, but I think his sister is making good karma for him).

----------


## Gerbil

> If you bother to take a look at any reliable source how Thaksin made his fortune is in business


If *you* bother to look, all his early businesses were failures until he was 'fortuitously' awarded a major contract supplying IT gear to the police, *while* he was still a serving policeman, after which he immediately resigned and went into politics.

----------


## nostromo

> Well given we have had so many coups non of which seemed to have worked my any objective measure of reality, I can only think that you must be refuring to this thai equivalents this these chaps where at 1:28, they discuss the diabolically clever idea of using the same failed plan for the 18th time.


Your vid speaks for itself :Smile:  Good one, miss that series

Seriously, on military coups, perhaps real democracy is needed. And that is perhaps what many people are looking for. Perhaps that brought up Red demonstrations. Perhaps that lead to new path on which Thailand might be on now - if Yingluck has enough power against anti-democracy so-called amart.

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by tomta
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> ...


Oh sad one. Try google:
Strontium Dog hates thaksin
About 5,250 results (0.11 seconds)

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by nidhogg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer
> ...


I must agree with Tom here 100%. We who live here with family or business do have a stake here, and I would not give up my right to say my opinion, or my rights as easily as nid, who seems to have surrendered to "ive lost all kill me" mode. Perhaps its something to do with your conscience. I give to Thailand and hope to take and profit and give more to help the family. I pay taxes and employ Thais and do everything legally. I have the right to say what happens here. Your european social security ideals are like from off-world off stargate, except they never gave a fcuc for europe (only UK). 

Foreigners speaking with Thais do influence each others. I speak a lot of politics with some Thai friends - I listen to their views and I tell what I think - I think we learn from each other. I feel this is the only way to go. Maybe that is exceptional, we discuss religion as well.  

Well, if Euro farang dont want to speak with "in butters language:monkeys" asian people it is Europeans who will face starvation. Asia is rich. Europe is poor. Nervous, butters?

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by Calgary
> 
> Lets simply be clear about two things:
> #1 - Farangs are inconsequential regarding Thai politics, regardless whether they have a stake. Our opinions don't mean 'nuthin"...NUTHIN!
> 
> #2 - Political junkies by their very nature opinionate about Politics......whether it be in Timbuktu or Thailand....... They have a right to do so......... That is what they do......... And they do it on Political discussion Boards such as this one, with great gusto.
> So whoever has a problem with that, what the hell are they doing on TD.
> 
> 
> ...



Are you a mod who can order others as in
"#2 This is *not* a Political Discussion Board - The 'Mission Statement' is: The Thailand expat forum for Travel, Lifestyle and Fun."

----------


## nostromo

> Moves are already afoot to bring back Thaksin.
> 
> 
> 6 months since the thread opened,and counting!     
> 
> Seems a bit slow,even for the L.o S.


 :Smile:  SD is a bit trigger happy when it comes to Shinawatra family

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> Why do you say Thaksin broke judiciary? What is your proof, or even decent comment to that?
> 
> 
> Lunch boxes stuffed full of money delivered to the court would be a good start.....


That would be a proof. If you had that proof... as for now you just prove it. Date, time, vids and photos, you know how the law enforcement works.

----------


## Gerbil

^ Lawyers who did it convicted on evidence and served jail time is good enough proof. Just look it up you lazy git.

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> If you bother to take a look at any reliable source how Thaksin made his fortune is in business
> 
> 
> If *you* bother to look, all his early businesses were failures until he was 'fortuitously' awarded a major contract supplying IT gear to the police, *while* he was still a serving policeman, after which he immediately resigned and went into politics.


You are wrong, or just repeating lies from from your Yellow friend. (Or I could not care less what mr T did in his 20s etc for what you refer to)

Thaksin made most of his money in telecoms business with AIS (I am happy 1-2-call customer too - sold to Singapore investment board is another thing - but a stamp of approval for good business). This money was made in hard world of business I find hard many of you social security fruitcakes ever understand. Europeans? Social security first and then think of work?

----------


## nostromo

> ^ Lawyers who did it convicted on evidence and served jail time is good enough proof. Just look it up you lazy git.


All that happened after military coup is either a fake or a lie or can be proven to be anything else since no real records remain since they were destroyed. Same same, every time, every country.

----------


## nostromo

Oh, Rodent has learnt a new word: git

----------


## hazz

> Thaksin made most of his money in telecoms business with AIS (I am happy 1-2-call customer too - sold to Singapore investment board is another thing - but a stamp of approval for good business). This money was made in hard world of business I find hard many of you social security fruitcakes ever understand. Europeans? Social security first and then think of work?


Its not so hard when you are granted a gsm monopoly and your main competition has problems delivering land lines in months, weeks with the correct bribe? But its a great idea for dealing with social security claimants. given them all their own monopoly.

nostromo, weren't you going to give posting over the weekend a break on the grounds that your brain stops working for 48 hrs after friday night?




> Oh sad one. Try google:
> Strontium Dog hates thaksin
> About 5,250 results (0.11 seconds)


can we all give this google matches a miss. its utter bollocks, after all

taksin gives nostromo  and calgary free oral 

gets 1000 matches, and can anyone seriously imagine he ever doing that?

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> Try "Thaksin red shirt funding" in Google or words to that effect.  Really mate, it isn't difficult.
> 
> 
> indeed it's not , pity IT DOES NOT turn up any evidence the support the premise


You mean like this....

Bangkok Post : UDD leader admits protest funds come from Thaksin

*UDD leader admits protest funds come from Thaksin*Published: 18/05/2010 at 12:00 AMNewspaper section: News_A  United Front for Democracy against  Dictatorship leader has admitted  the red shirt rally has received  financial support from ousted prime  minister Thaksin Shinawatra and  Khunying Sudarat Keyuraphan, the former  deputy leader of the dissolved  Thai Rak Thai party ._

_"I  accept that Thaksin himself and some politicians, including  Khunying  Sudarat, have given us financial support, as have other donors,  but I  don't know how much they've donated," UDD co-leader Jaran  Dithapichai  said on the Ratchaprasong rally stage last night._

_"What's   wrong with that? Rallies have costs and we need donors. Even other UDD   members and myself have had to spend our personal funds on the rally."
_
Clever chap aren't you Mid...

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by sabang
> ...


Firstly I'm an atheist, so I'm free to do what I want, when I want, how I want....

Secondly, not sure I really understand the second paragraph. But lets just settle for, yes, you are utterly and totally manipulated by me....how does it feel? Pear shaped i bet.  :Smile:

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by tomta
> ...


Really, only 5.250....and I'd tried so hard....

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by Gerbil
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by nostromo
> ...


For the six millionth time of posting....

Nostromo, how do you function, if you are unable to retain such information as this. This is not some gigantic task for your, seemingly, rather miniscule memory. I manage to hold down 2 jobs, run a business, have several relationships at the same time, have an active social life, post way too much to TD, tweet vigorously and still remember that Thaksin's lawyers got done for bribery....but you seem to be incapable of retaining anything! I worry for you. I really do. 

Thaksin's "pastry bag" lawyers banned - Nationmultimedia.com

_Thaksin's "pastry bag" lawyers banned

                                By The Nation
                                                                    Published on September 10, 2009

_ _ 
Pichit

The Lawyers Council of Thailand yesterday imposed a  five-year ban on three lawyers from fugitive ex-premier Thaksin  Shinawatra's defence team fighting the Ratchadaphisek land scandal case -  for their involvement in the "Bt2-million pastry bag" incident._  _

The council's ethics and conduct committee voted  unanimously to ban Pichit Chuenban, Supasri Srisawat and Thana Tansiri  for violating the council's regulations and code of conduct, panel  chairman Sithichok Sricharoen said.

He said the three acted  in contempt of court and each had been sentenced by the Supreme Court  to six months in jail for the offence.

In June last year,  the trio gave a pastry bag filled with Bt2 million in banknotes to an  official at the Supreme Court's Criminal Division for Political Office  Holders, which was hearing the Ratchadaphisek land scandal case against Thaksin and his then-wife Pojaman.

The  lawyers argued that it was the result of a mix-up as they intended to  give the court official some pastries instead of the cash.

Sithichok  yesterday said this was the most serious case of conduct violation he  had experienced since he became a member of the committee over a decade ago.

He  said the banned lawyers would not be allowed to act as case lawyers for  the next five years. When the ban is completed, they can apply to  become registered lawyers again but the Lawyers Council of Thailand will  need to approve their applications.

Pichit could not be reached for comment about the matter yesterday._

-----

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009...s_30111866.php

*Thaksin's lawyer has his license revoked for bribery attempt*

_                 By The Nation
_ 
__ _
Pichit_

*The Law Society of Thailand's subcommittee on   professional conduct on Wednesday ruled to revoke the lawyer license of   Pichit Chuenban for his involvement in the bribery attempt last year.

* _Pichit was convicted for contempt of court and served six months in  jail following the discovery that he and two associates left a bag of  pastries containing Bt2 million in cash for officials at the Supreme  Court._

_The bribery incident happened in June, 2008 ahead of  the graft trial on the Ratchadapisek land case involving his client and  ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra._

_Subcommittee chairman Sithichok Sricharoen said Pichet received the maximum punishment for professional misconduct._

_The two associates, Supasri Srisawat and Thana Tansiri, also faced the same penalty._

_The three are barred from practising the legal profession for five years._

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> Thaksin made most of his money in telecoms business with AIS (I am happy 1-2-call customer too - sold to Singapore investment board is another thing - but a stamp of approval for good business). This money was made in hard world of business I find hard many of you social security fruitcakes ever understand. Europeans? Social security first and then think of work?
> 
> 
> Its not so hard when you are granted a gsm monopoly and your main competition has problems delivering land lines in months, weeks with the correct bribe? But its a great idea for dealing with social security claimants. given them all their own monopoly.
> 
> nostromo, weren't you going to give posting over the weekend a break on the grounds that your brain stops working for 48 hrs after friday night?
> 
> ...


hazz, that was is in the past, last year, however I never said it was 48 hours.... or did I? This week just I had early morning to go work where I had to be sharp and shaved. On saturday I woke up after 5 am to fix some things and go to local wat with my wife. Now this has been a week. 

But were there long weekends or holidays before? I happily forget. 

At least I did not shoot any heroin into by eyeballs like some, which some here seemingly would approve.

I would be rude to say who (female member) of Shinawatra family I would I like to receive oral from.... and she is so beautiful too...

----------


## hazz

^you going to break calgary's heart. he was set on a dirty weekend with her breaking chairs over his head

----------


## nostromo

7th million time, Nation propaganda article - you remember timeline, Nation said anything against Thaksin, Thaksin was Alien who destroyed Earth in Independence Day, Thaksin sank the Titanic, Thaksin did this and that, probably with x-ray vision with future penetration capabilities created the Rage of the movies 24 days later and 24 weeks later. 

Sure I believe you.

Still awaiting for any decent proof, not just "I heard that... " or "there were boxes"

SD, you should not be defending rodent. Please keep up, for me at least, your image of you at least being above and not being part of that nazi lot.






> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Gerbil
> ...

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ My god, I'm lost for words....

----------


## nostromo

> ^you going to break calgary's heart. he was set on a dirty weekend with her breaking chairs over his head


Dirty weekends are good! 
Ah! Ah! Turn your f.. A... sorr this forum might be visited by children

In absence of a wife or girlfriend, watch a dvd. Or get some from internet.

It is good for you, only catholics hate sex and they are all crazy as shit. Perhaps there is a connection there...

(waiting for hate mail)

----------


## nostromo

sex dvds from pantip are ok just choose asian ones if you like locals. if you like farang women then why are you here fuck anyways? off then to LA or russia or some shithole. but you might find some free farang girl on khao san load, dirty and smelly and elephant sized aussies of course but if you like that then go man

Did I just say something not politically correct? I, I blame it on Bloomberg TV I am watching. There was just... oh

----------


## nostromo

> ^ My god, I'm lost for words....


God? Who the fck are you are talking about? Zeus? Prem? Rooster?

----------


## hazz

> sex dvds from pantip are ok just choose asian ones if you like locals. if you like farang women then why are you here fuck anyways? off then to LA or russia or some shithole. but you might find some free farang girl on khao san load, dirty and smelly and elephant sized aussies of course but if you like that then go man
> 
> Did I just say something not politically correct? I, I blame it on Bloomberg TV I am watching. There was just... oh


probably, but your biggest problem is that you are kind of repeating the activities this weekend that got you in to MKP's for a few weeks last year. If I were you I would seriously consider unplugging the keyboard until monday morning.

----------


## nostromo

Non topic

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> 
> sex dvds from pantip are ok just choose asian ones if you like locals. if you like farang women then why are you here fuck anyways? off then to LA or russia or some shithole. but you might find some free farang girl on khao san load, dirty and smelly and elephant sized aussies of course but if you like that then go man
> 
> Did I just say something not politically correct? I, I blame it on Bloomberg TV I am watching. There was just... oh
> 
> 
> probably, but your biggest problem is that you are kind of repeating the activities this weekend that got you in to MKP's for a few weeks last year. If I were you I would seriously consider unplugging the keyboard until monday morning.


Thanks, really for notification, but I think I am well within limits here.
Of course, if you were one of these hidden mods or not, you have now put my case on monitoring schedule. I trust you consider everyones manner in the same way  (sorry I can not insert "," character without serious programming :Smile:  -)  thats this keyboard

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> 
> sex dvds from pantip are ok just choose asian ones if you like locals. if you like farang women then why are you here fuck anyways? off then to LA or russia or some shithole. but you might find some free farang girl on khao san load, dirty and smelly and elephant sized aussies of course but if you like that then go man
> 
> Did I just say something not politically correct? I, I blame it on Bloomberg TV I am watching. There was just... oh
> 
> 
> probably, but your biggest problem is that you are kind of repeating the activities this weekend that got you in to MKP's for a few weeks last year. If I were you I would seriously consider unplugging the keyboard until monday morning.


Further to that, I will switch off power from main internet line if I feel that is required (It does not block by mobile hdspa though :Smile: ) . I trust you tell me to do that if you think I am off the hard disk.

----------


## LooseBowels

> Thaksin's lawyer has his license revoked for bribery attempt


A trumped up charge by an illegal junta dictatorship.

And the murderers of the 91 innocent protestors still walk free.

You cant argue with that

----------


## Mid

> Clever chap aren't you Mid...


indeed  :Smile: 




> "I accept that Thaksin himself and some  politicians, including Khunying Sudarat, have given us financial  support, as have other donors, but I don't know how much they've  donated," UDD co-leader Jaran Dithapichai said on the Ratchaprasong  rally stage last night.


since when is accepting proof ?

 :mid:

----------


## nidhogg

> Originally Posted by nidhogg
> 
> 
> Thaksin never was, and never will be about the people. He went into politics for one reason ONLY. To safe guard HIS buisness interests - nowt to do with 'the common people". 
> 
> 
> 
> If you bother to take a look at any reliable source how Thaksin made his fortune is in business, not on politics - he became politician on later age when he was already a billionaire.


If you bother to read my post correctly, you will find out that is exactly what I said.  He went into politcs to protect his buisness assets (AIS etc).  At the time he went into politics, he was setting up several very lucrative (for him) deals with surrounding countries that needed the compliance of the government to go through.  Hence his entry into politics.  

This re-touches on the corruption of the judiciary as it was "hiding" those assets, or failing to declare them that resulted in a trial though could have resulted in him being removed from the premiership.  The fact that Thaksin perverted the course of justice at that point is one of the root causes of the present troubles.

As was stated correctly by (I think) gerbil, before you blather on about all that "hard work" by thaksin, go check out HOW (and more importantly, by WHOM) a lowly police officer was handed a major telecomunications MONOPOLY, and you can also mull over why, for a very very long time telecomunications equipment and service in Thailand were some of the most expensive in the world.....

----------


## Calgary

Wow, that Amart Media has you in a Thaksin roundabout, haven't they Nidhogg.

Round-and-round we go, seemingly forever, just the way they like it. Regurgitating all the stuff they fed you. The way you write it, almost appears as if you were there and know all the inside info, when in fact it is a word-for-word repetition of what propagandists have told you.

Can you raise your head and eyeballs off this beaten-to-death, inconsequential Thaksin stuff and get involved in a meaningful political discussion.

Have a look at the thread of  (House speaker recommends fast-track charter rewrite)House speaker recommends fast-track charter rewrite to get yourself up-to-date and current, on what is politically meaningful in the here-and-now and going forward.

----------


## nidhogg

> Wow, that Amart Media has you in a Thaksin roundabout, haven't they Nidhogg.
> 
> Round-and-round we go, seemingly forever, just the way they like it. Regurgitating all the stuff they fed you. The way you write it, almost appears as if you were there and know all the inside info, 
> .


Dickhead. I WAS here when this was going on, and it was a frequent topic of conversation of expats living here at the time.

----------


## Calgary

> Originally Posted by Calgary
> 
> 
> Wow, that Amart Media has you in a Thaksin roundabout, haven't they Nidhogg.
> 
> Round-and-round we go, seemingly forever, just the way they like it. Regurgitating all the stuff they fed you. The way you write it, almost appears as if you were there and know all the inside info, 
> .
> 
> 
> Dickhead. I WAS here when this was going on, and it was a frequent topic of conversation of expats living here at the time.


That was then....this is now.

Life moves on, so lets keep up.

Propagandists don't need others repeating their stuff ad-infinitum. They do fine all by themselves.

----------


## nidhogg

> Originally Posted by nidhogg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Calgary
> ...


LOL.  And therein lies the problem.

----------


## Butterfly

is nostromo having another of his tourette episode ? we can expect Calgary to join him in his little exercise anytime now,

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> Thaksin's lawyer has his license revoked for bribery attempt
> 
> 
> A trumped up charge by an illegal junta dictatorship.
> 
> And the murderers of the 91 innocent protestors still walk free.
> 
> You cant argue with that


That is the reality & the sad truth.

----------


## Calgary

> Originally Posted by LooseBowels
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> ...


Yes, it is the reality and sad truth.

However, I am cautiously encouraged by the energy I am seeing in the _Red Shirt/UDD Democracy Movement_ presently.

Their nation-wide Constitution Reform petition currently underway (discussed in greater detail in the  (House speaker recommends fast-track charter rewrite)House speaker recommends fast-track charter rewrite  thread) is being studiously ignored by the Amart Media. But is galvanizing the RS/UDD to confront the PTP with an "_are you with us or agin us"_ ultimatum.

Both Chalerm and Apiwan cowardly musing about a delay of Constitution reform isn't cutting it with the rank-and-file out there. 

The petition is an in-your-face challenge to them and their PTP brethren, to declare where they stand vis-a-vis the RS/UDD.

----------


## Butterfly

:rofl:

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by nidhogg
> ...


I did read your post. There we have clearly differencing views and opinions, issues which would require separate thread to resolve. Like you conveniently totally forget Thaksin family business history, etc. For factual part, weird, as you mention, for me telecoms charges including internet in Thailand are much less than in Farang countries. I have had 3g for at least 5 years ie. in Thaksins time before the military coup (yes, not official, but working on 850mhz band, and fast, beating at that time farang countries comparable services, this is for postpaid service). Calls I recall have never been more expensive than anywhere else, less compared to farang countries. I give you that more than for local calls to local networks in China.

You should never state gerbil as your source. Brings you down. But in new year, good will feeling I read your post.

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> Thaksin made most of his money in telecoms business with AIS (I am happy 1-2-call customer too - sold to Singapore investment board is another thing - but a stamp of approval for good business). This money was made in hard world of business I find hard many of you social security fruitcakes ever understand. Europeans? Social security first and then think of work?
> 
> 
> Its not so hard when you are granted a gsm monopoly and your main competition has problems delivering land lines in months, weeks with the correct bribe? But its a great idea for dealing with social security claimants. given them all their own monopoly.
> 
> nostromo, weren't you going to give posting over the weekend a break on the grounds that your brain stops working for 48 hrs after friday night?
> 
> ...


That is my point - to original SD post about how google proves his point. My point being you can put about anything to google and get results.

To return to this, is it your opinion what I said yesterday is a basis for banning me? (I have not been banned, btw) I made many posts since I did not have time during the week - I work hard, you know - to reply to posts since my last login. So I answered to them in chronological order. Sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused. Which of my posts yesterday did you find particularly off limits? Or did anyone else find my posts off limits? That would be interesting to hear - with description better than default butters take your meds or someones f*ck off twat.

Since... ah never mind

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> Thaksin made most of his money in telecoms business with AIS (I am happy 1-2-call customer too - sold to Singapore investment board is another thing - but a stamp of approval for good business). This money was made in hard world of business I find hard many of you social security fruitcakes ever understand. Europeans? Social security first and then think of work?
> 
> 
> Its not so hard when you are granted a gsm monopoly and your main competition has problems delivering land lines in months, weeks with the correct bribe? But its a great idea for dealing with social security claimants. given them all their own monopoly.
> 
> nostromo, weren't you going to give posting over the weekend a break on the grounds that your brain stops working for 48 hrs after friday night?
> 
> ...


Actually with quotes it gives only one result - and it is to your post above.

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by nostromo

To return to this, is it your opinion what I said yesterday is a basis for banning me?


*

It is amazing how the mentality from that other Farang discussion Board has such a grip on some Farangs.

The only thing off-limits to those people is that which their opinion managers and controllers over there deem as such. 

But when they bring it over here, is particularly vexing. I have often wondered how many Posters from here, float back and forth, bringing their indoctrination with them.

But seeing alternatives they are not allowed to see over there, confuses them, with the resultant knee-jerk reaction that you highlight Nostromo. They just never see it.

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> ...


If you are an atheist I give you a plus - would be very boring to have you here as religious preaching nutter as well. If you do not understand second paragraph then, it is your failure, probably miss historical reference to Cicero and get lost after.

----------


## nostromo

> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> To return to this, is it your opinion what I said yesterday is a basis for banning me?
> 
> ...


That other discussion board you mention was a pain already years ago with nazi mods with select opinions and now (perhaps because of the direction they took) that board is directly funded by yellow media (Is it BKK Post or Nation group is of little difference) and is unbelievable. Ok to ask how to go Khao San Road, or - this is my fav, from informed source, joke I hope, "Is there a road to suvarnabhumi airport at night" :Smile:

----------


## hazz

> Originally Posted by hazz
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Which is the point of why its such utter bollocks to do this google search shit. if you had put quotes around "Strontium Dog hates thaksin" you would have got the same result fool.

----------


## nostromo

> Nostromo, how do you function, if you are unable to retain such information as this


For 8th million time, this information you provide is political yellow media, some call it amart, "news" less believable than News of The World but without benefit of spying private telephones.

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by hazz
> ...


I agree with you. SD did not put quotes and then he said everyone hates Thaksin or whatever based on his research (SD I hope you do better research in your professional work, or 3 jobs is it now SD).

In reality, you should google something like StrontiumDog +thaksin without quotes and then filter out the results until you find ones most probably to be related to issue. Oh but that is much more work...

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> Nostromo, how do you function, if you are unable to retain such information as this
> 
> 
> For 8th million time, this information you provide is political yellow media, some call it amart, "news" less believable than News of The World but without benefit of spying private telephones.



Now, please sit down and prepare yourself for a shock. 

Ok, ready?

Here goes.....

Some information is factual and it really happened. Now, get this...Thaksin's lawyers really did do that and they did get jail sentences for it.....and guess what, a newspaper reported those FACTUAL events. 

Imagine...

You okay Nostromo? I know, I understand, it's all a bit much for you to take in. There, there.

----------


## hazz

> As was stated correctly by (I think) gerbil, before you blather on about all that "hard work" by thaksin, go check out HOW (and more importantly, by WHOM) a lowly police officer was handed a major telecomunications MONOPOLY, and you can also mull over why, for a very very long time telecomunications equipment and service in Thailand were some of the most expensive in the world.....


I made my first visits to SEA in 1996/7 I have to admit I was more than shocked just  how expensive mobile phone calls where for the locals. About twice the cost of the UK at the time.

calgary there is this rather interesting and not entirely well understood phenomenon called 'time'. Its the thing that stops everything from happening all at once. This leads to not only the concepts of the past, present and future; but to things like consequences, knockon effects and the idea of the unknown future.

Strangly there are many of us who developed our dislike to taksin in the years around 9 BC, This was a time when the thai police were busy murdering their way though their death lists created as part of taksin's war on drugs. About 2500 thousand thai citizens died on this and over 20,000 families had their assets frozen for ages whilst a dozen or so government officers  verified the legality of their money. There was lots of propaganda, almost all pro taksin as those who broadcast what he didn't like found themselves busy in with liable cases, tax audits and loosing their operating licences. 

The propaganda was somewhat successful as there are many thai's that genuinely believe that all these people were drug dealers and deserved to die. You will even find people on TD who believe this. Some of us could see though this, the whole thing rather rapidly deceneded in to a free assassination service for people who were jealous of or in disputes with others. 

But I supose from your point of view our minds have been clouded by the 'then' and this is the now. 

To quote George Santayana:

 "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

Taksins utter lack of contrition, or even basic empathy with the unintended  victims of his policies together with attitude of the  thai electorate that the past is the past and the present is all that matters.... gives me the dred that this decade is simply going to be a repeat of the last with score settling added to the mix.

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> ...


And as you must know, I will next ask for dates when these jail sentences were given and under which government. If military junta, you know what I will say, and  I know you will want to forget the argument - or argue the undeniable truth, which actually seems more probable.

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by nidhogg
> 
> As was stated correctly by (I think) gerbil, before you blather on about all that "hard work" by thaksin, go check out HOW (and more importantly, by WHOM) a lowly police officer was handed a major telecomunications MONOPOLY, and you can also mull over why, for a very very long time telecomunications equipment and service in Thailand were some of the most expensive in the world.....
> 
> 
> I made my first visits to SEA in 1996/7 I have to admit I was more than shocked just  how expensive mobile phone calls where for the locals. About twice the cost of the UK at the time.
> 
> calgary there is this rather interesting and not entirely well understood phenomenon called 'time'. Its the thing that stops everything from happening all at once. This leads to not only the concepts of the past, present and future; but to things like consequences, knockon effects and the idea of the unknown future.
> 
> ...


In 1996 few western people had mobile telephone, I think, they cost a lot had a handset and huge battery sized like a petrol tank. I think I had motorola US analog version which is not comparable with anything GSM. GSM was not invented yet. Or do you mean 2006? - OK think latter. Costs were high. That was early times for roaming, and charges especially for internet were high as you experienced. And they still are, from SIM card from any country to any other country. This is why, when you travel, buy local prepaid SIM card with 3G and load it with internet asap.

----------


## nidhogg

^^^ Great post hazz.  You are wasting your time of course, but still a great post.

Fraid I have to speread the lurve, but worthy of a green.

By the way, did you see the laughable "that was in the past" of Calgary?  

Too funny.  Apparently history only starts to matter when it is convenient to him....

----------


## nidhogg

> In 1996 few western people had mobile telephone, I think, they cost a lot had a handset and huge battery sized like a petrol tank. .


You are about a decade out.  

This was 1989:




this was produced up to 1994:





This was 1996:

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ LOL....he really doesn't have a clue does he...I had my first mobile in 1994, still have it someplace, stored in some box in the UK.

----------


## hazz

> By the way, did you see the laughable "that was in the past" of Calgary? 
> 
> Too funny. Apparently history only starts to matter when it is convenient to him....


thats why I thought I should use BC, before calgary, years; rather than 2002/2003

shit I had one of those nokia 9000 phones in 1996, biggest f**king phone you could buy, you could beat someone to death with it and still fitted in your pocket and cost about 3 days average earnings. I would say that 90% of working brits I knew at the time used mobiles; it was the new untaxed company perk and the majority would fit in a shirt pocket.

As for costs in thailand. to give people an idea as to how expensive it was in thailand. the price of a macdonalds meal in 1996 thailand would get you about 30-40 seconds and about 2-4 minutes of call time in 1996 UK.

Was anyone else in Thailand gob smacked at just how many thai's at the time were prepared to spend 1-2 months salary just to have the latest palm sized nokia phone?


And yes saying anything to calgary is a waste of time. but doubly so for me as I am on his block list for calling him an arrogant prick and worse suggesting he might agree to join PAD members in bulk buy of their anti psychotic meds.

----------


## nostromo

Yes you are right, I mixed decades... it feels so long time ago. I meant 1986. The first phone in your photos looks like my first phone. First GSM I had in early 1990s and that was much better but I recall calling prices were very high back then. 





> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> 
>  
> 
> In 1996 few western people had mobile telephone, I think, they cost a lot had a handset and huge battery sized like a petrol tank. .
> 
> 
> You are about a decade out.  
> ...

----------


## nostromo

This should make you happy, you can forever remind me I mixed 80s and 90s (while catching up, writing fast and reading fast). As a "psychologist" what does it make me? You diagnose me with Alzheimer disease :Smile:  Oh but you are not a doctor, psychiatrist is a doctor... Makes me wonder if psychiatrists license and papers are more expensive at Khao San Road :Smile: 

Somehow I was reminded of that 1984 phone in your photo that has separate car battery sized battery... 




> ^ LOL....he really doesn't have a clue does he...I had my first mobile in 1994, still have it someplace, stored in some box in the UK.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> Why do you say Thaksin broke judiciary? What is your proof, or even decent comment to that?
> 
> 
> Lunch boxes stuffed full of money delivered to the court would be a good start.....


Proof of sender? Or set up?

----------


## nidhogg

> And yes saying anything to calgary is a waste of time. but doubly so for me as I am on his block list for calling him an arrogant prick and worse suggesting he might agree to join PAD members in bulk buy of their anti psychotic meds.


My own personal feel is that discussing the "merits" of the dems versus the PT/TRT is akin to discussing the merits of turds.  Yes, you can argue that one turd has a better consistency, colour or floatability - but the bottom line is they are both turds, and they both stink.

----------


## hazz

Lets not forget the pointless arguments about which of the turds will improve the sewage system, because non of them will. its not something turds are capable of doing. they just float, sink and stink.


Strangely mr chewit seems to have the same opinion, remember the  "politicians like diapers should be changed frequently" poster?.

It was the poster where he was holding a little girl and looked like he was saying. vote for me or i sell the girl to a brothel. Someone really should have had a word with him about that before he put them up.

----------


## nostromo

[QUOTE="nidhogg"]My own personal feel is that discussing the "merits" of the dems versus the PT/TRT is akin to discussing the merits of turds.[/QUOTE

Yes, but that is the same in every country - not only Thailand issue. Political parties have all become more or less similar with every party seeking and offering the same most popular things the average voter wants.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by hazz
> 
> 
>  
> And yes saying anything to calgary is a waste of time. but doubly so for me as I am on his block list for calling him an arrogant prick and worse suggesting he might agree to join PAD members in bulk buy of their anti psychotic meds.
> 
> 
> My own personal feel is that discussing the "merits" of the dems versus the PT/TRT is akin to discussing the merits of turds.  Yes, you can argue that one turd has a better consistency, colour or floatability - but the bottom line is they are both turds, and they both stink.


Indeed, spot on as usual. 

Strange that some here don't seem to able to appreciate this though.

----------


## nostromo

> Lets not forget the pointless arguments about which of the turds will improve the sewage system, because non of them will. its not something turds are capable of doing. they just float, sink and stink.


This too is not only Thailand issue. For example, have you been to Spain? the trash really stinks much more than in Thailand. Hot climate makes rubbish rot and smell bad quickly, but Spain is hot during hot season, but not hot as Thailand all year so there is no excuse for Spain to stink. Many european countries, and all of Med Club have same problem... Actually what you said "float, sink and stink." could refer to southern europe. (or rather more eurozone :Smile:  )

Thailand in many ways is cleaner than average farang country with graffitis and thrash everywhere which nobody seems to bother to clear. In this respect Thailand is closer to super-clean Singapore than Europe.

----------


## hazz

nostromo, you really do taking things ultra literally don't you.

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> 
> sex dvds from pantip are ok just choose asian ones if you like locals. if you like farang women then why are you here fuck anyways? off then to LA or russia or some shithole. but you might find some free farang girl on khao san load, dirty and smelly and elephant sized aussies of course but if you like that then go man
> 
> Did I just say something not politically correct? I, I blame it on Bloomberg TV I am watching. There was just... oh
> 
> 
> probably, but your biggest problem is that you are kind of repeating the activities this weekend that got you in to MKP's for a few weeks last year. If I were you I would seriously consider unplugging the keyboard until monday morning.


Do please give me an example(s) what bad activities I am involved with? 

Disagreeing with SD and his underlings? But I thought different opinions are allowed on TD? If not, please do let me know and I make my final exit from TD.

I dont have time on workdays and rarely have time to read TD, login and comment. So I must make my posts and answers to posts during weekend. Therefore many times some thread may have several consecutive posts of mine. Perhaps you think I post too much? 

Thanks for your concern anyways.

----------


## LooseBowels

But not withstanding all them PAD yellow nutter turds back there, there is no getting away from the fact that taksin was the choice of the electorate for Prime Minister. :Smile: 

He still is the choice of the people for Prime Minister.

You cant argue with that

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by nostromo

Perhaps you think I post too much?


*

Hang in there Nostromo.

We need all the politically righteous people we can find, within the Farang community.

Other than those in the propaganda grip of the Post, Nation and that other Farang political discussion board.

At least over here, alternative views provide a glimmer of hope for extracting some of the more "_with it_" Farangs from that grip.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*gulfnews : Will Thaksin return?
*
*Will Thaksin return?*

         Some wonder whether  the former Thai PM really needs to come back, as he shows signs of being  able to run the government perfectly well from abroad  — The EconomistPublished: 00:00 January 10, 2012Image Credit: AFP_Thaksin remains a controversial figure in the country. The government has begun exploring every avenue to bring Thaksin back._With the flood waters mercifully receding in much of the  country, normal service has resumed in Thai politics — and that means  talking obsessively about Thaksin Shinawatra. The former prime minister,  ousted in a coup in 2006, has been living in exile since 2008 to avoid  going to prison for corruption on charges that he has always claimed  were politically motivated.                                                                                                                

But now, with a new government in power led, very handily, by his  younger sister Yingluck, it seems that it has become a matter of when,  not whether, he returns to his native land.                                                                                                                                                    

The new government has begun "exploring every avenue to bring  Thaksin back", according to Pavin Chachavalpongpun, an analyst of Thai  politics at the Institute of South-East Asian Studies in Singapore. In  mid-December it was revealed that Thaksin had been given a new Thai  passport. Until then he had been travelling on Nicaraguan and  Montenegrin documents. Now the government is working on an amnesty bill  aimed at pardoning those jailed for political offences over the past few  years. This will cover not just many of their own "red shirt"  supporters but also leaders of the monarchist, anti-Thaksinites known as  the "yellow shirts". Crucially, it will also find ways to take in  Thaksin himself. The legislation might be passed by parliament before  the middle of the year.   

Thaksin remains a highly controversial and divisive figure in  Thailand. So even his own sister's government will have to proceed  cautiously. The government shied away from pressing for a royal pardon  on the occasion of King Bhumibol's birthday on December 5, wary of the  backlash from the yellow-shirt movement that this would surely have  provoked. Indeed, many fear that, however crafty the government is in  eventually getting Thaksin back, the issue risks overshadowing much else  that Yingluck wants to do.                                                                                                                                      

Her stress on national reconciliation, one of her main campaign  themes last year, will begin to look hollow if she exhausts all her  political capital merely to secure a safe passage back to Thailand for  one man, simply out of family loyalty. Besides, some wonder whether  Thaksin really needs to come back at all, given that he shows every sign  of running the Thai government perfectly well from abroad. He has a  grip over appointments to the cabinet and he sends an incessant stream  of advice to ministers and members of parliament. Thaksin also seems to  have become as good as a foreign emissary for his sister too.                                                                                                                

He visited Myanmar last month. In his own words, this was to  "smooth the way" for Yingluck's meeting with the apparently reformist  president, Thein Sein. Before that, he was in Cambodia to ease tensions  over a border dispute with Thailand that blew up under the previous  government of Abhisit Vejjajiva. He has also been spotted on missions to  Singapore and Hong Kong. So much for claims from the man who said last year that he was in “no  hurry” to return home—and who before that had vowed that he would in  future keep out of Thai politics altogether.

Original article can be found here... Thailand

----------


## StrontiumDog

Thaksin's retreat may cut conflict - The Nation

Burning Issue

*Thaksin's retreat may cut conflict*

         Avudh Panananda
THE NATION January 10, 2012  1:00 am 
 
*
This year's political mercury suggests fair weather with occasional storms over petty issues.*

An approaching storm is being thwarted simply because the government  has switched into reverse gear in order to avoid confronting its  opponents over controversies like charter change and lese majeste law.

And clouds should dissipate due to an unspoken message from fugitive  former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra to delay his homecoming.

Although the government leaders did not spell out a change of plan, it  is clear that Thaksin has no longer set a deadline for his amnesty. He  appears to have conceded to two things - that he could not be granted a  pardon by this year and that he could not expect his sister and Prime  Minister Yingluck Shinawatra to engineer his homecoming, due to the fact  it would be a conflict of interest.

Thaksin should be well aware that any hasty push for an amnesty would  only inflame the political situation, hence his decision to bide for  time.

He appears to have also seen that Yingluck is in no position to bring  about an amnesty for him. If and when an opportunity arises to untangle  his legal issues, he will have to make a tough decision on whether to  keep his sister in the position of prime minister, or to replace her  with someone who can resolve the amnesty issue.

Fortunately, the country should see relative calm before Thaksin will  have to choose between his sister and a new prime ministerial candidate  to pave way for his amnesty.

With Thaksin remaining a puppeteer, pulling strings from afar for at  least another year, the government can afford to put the charter rewrite  on hold.

The perceived urgency to amend the charter can be attributed to the  rush to pardon Thaksin. The repeal of the charter's Article 309, which  condones the coup-sanctioned activities, is seen as key to rescuing him  from his conviction.

There is no reason to speed up the amendment process if Thaksin has put off plans to come home.

The red shirts are spearheading a campaign to solicit the support of  50,000 to 200,000 voters in order to sponsor a motion for a rewrite of  the charter. But this is to showcase their movement rather than a  serious move to sideline the government. It will take months or years to  verify the reds' signatures.

The charter change will be activated if and when the government deems  it necessary. The road map for the new charter will hinge on three key  reports compiled by the Truth for Reconciliation Commission of Thailand,  the Independent National Rule of Law Commission and the House Committee  on reconciliation.

The three reports should be completed later this year. So the earliest  date that a redraft of the charter might commence at year-end.

Yingluck's job is safe for now. Thaksin is unlikely to rock the boat before he can fully assess his options for amnesty.

Three contenders to replace Yingluck are Chaturon Chaisang, Surakiart  Sathirathai and Somkid Jatusripitak. But Yingluck's leadership will  prevail for at least a year or two. Thaksin seems to face certain  drawbacks regardless of what he decides. Chaturon is the best qualified  candidate, who could engineer an amnesty, but is seen as his own man.  Whereas Surakiart and Somkid are regarded as aloof to the red shirts,  because of their close ties with the royalist camp.

From now to April, the Yingluck government will face some petty issues,  none of which will trigger a downfall. The most critical is likely to  come from pressure to bring the red shirts, particularly Pheu Thai MP  Jatuporn Promphan, into the Cabinet line-up.

----------


## sabang

> normal service has resumed in Thai politics — and that means talking obsessively about Thaksin Shinawatra


It never lapsed.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Calgary

^^
Two more articles putting the paranoia of the Amart PADites on display. There are one or two of those per day.

To the uninitiated of which I hope we don't have too many on this Board, you would think this paranoia afflicts all of Thailand, instead of just an unelectable minority.

But having control of the media, they get outsized exposure to their hang-ups.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> ^^
> Two more articles putting the paranoia of the Amart PADites on display. There are one or two of those per day.
> 
> To the uninitiated of which I hope we don't have too many on this Board, you would think this paranoia afflicts all of Thailand, instead of just an unelectable minority.
> 
> But having control of the media, they get outsized exposure to their hang-ups.


Except that the first article comes from The Economist, Calgary....so please explain how that can be "Amart/PADite paranoia"

----------


## Calgary

The Foreign media is known for their shameless copying and paraphrasing the Thai propaganda media. They can get away with this because not only do their readers not know, they also don't care. They have enough political problems of their own.

The foreign media is going to a whole other level however, by not only engaging in the above, but even following the paranoid media in their paranoia.

Daily and persistent stuff on Thaksin reflects the paranoia of an electoral Thai minority, but who are a media majority. 

When the foreign media even start following them in choosing Thaksin subject matter, shows their shallowness, never mind following the major Thaksin themes the Amart tries to foist on people via their media.

It is no wonder, when speaking to politically aware people in Europe a few months ago, it was like talking to PADites.

----------


## hazz

^SD I'm a little surprised that you don't understand the logic. You see as far as calgary is is concerned the truth that is so self evident that anyone who does not agree with his view that the UDD, PT and shin family represent everything that is nice and good in this world; that to say otherwise is evidence that you are either an active supporter of the PAD movement or thoroughly brainwashed.

Its rather similar that lead to the soviate state declaring the dissents who reject the perfection of communist society are clearly mad and in desperate need of institutional care.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> The Foreign media is known for their shameless copying and paraphrasing the Thai propaganda media. They can get away with this because not only do their readers not know, they also don't care. They have enough political problems of their own.
> 
> The foreign media is going to a whole other level however, by not only engaging in the above, but even following the paranoid media in their paranoia.
> 
> Daily and persistent stuff on Thaksin reflects the paranoia of an electoral Thai minority, but who are a media majority. 
> 
> When the foreign media even start following them in choosing Thaksin subject matter, shows their shallowness, never mind following the major Thaksin themes the Amart tries to foist on people via their media.
> 
> It is no wonder, when speaking to politically aware people in Europe a few months ago, it was like talking to PADites.


Okay, except that The Economist was famously banned several times during the Democrats/Abhisit governments tenure for its anti-amart pieces. But I guess you don't know that.....otherwise you wouldn't have written the above about one of their articles.

(see this... http://facthai.wordpress.com/2011/04...ain-prachatai/ "_Since Dec 2008 at least 6 editions of the magazine, including the latest  one, have been either officially banned by the Thai police or subject  to self-censorship by the distributor._" )

Are you open to the possibility that you may be wrong? Because, in this, I'm afraid you are. 

The Economist isn't a Thailand based magazine. It is a global publication. They aren't interested in the paranoia you suggest is affecting them. They just write pieces about how things are. They are removed from Thailand. I'd suggest that this piece is fair and reasonable on the whole. Perhaps you should re-read it, keeping in mind what I've written above.

----------


## Gerbil

> Perhaps you should re-read it, keeping in mind what I've written above.


I doubt it. We're still waiting for an explanation about why his 'Red Contacts' had not heard of the People's Information Center.

He's a troll, pure and simple.

----------


## LooseBowels

> They just write pieces about how things are.


"No trust mi" , you are  detatched from reality as usual. :Smile: 

It would be good if they actually did their job and did write the meaningful, on the money, pieces about how things really are.

You cant argue with that

----------


## LooseBowels

> We're still waiting


*****Retard alert******

******Retard alert ******

----------


## nostromo

SD, I think the issue here, that Calgary too might perhaps partly refer to, is that you choose to post only pro-PAD/yellow/amart articles here. 

I do remember Economist being banned in Thailand - and without checking, I am quite sure you did not post those anti-amart articles here either. But when foreign independent media chooses to write something suitable for your agenda, then you will post it here. But you do not post majority of articles for example in the Economist because they do not suit you. 

Problem with smaller foreign media outfits is, as Calgary said, they, especially nowadays, do not afford to have local presence in foreign countries, and just copy and paste and change a wording a little from English language sources they find in those countries. Which in case of Thailand are BKK Post and the Nation, which both are part of super amart-yellow propaganda machine. But this gives you opportunity to find articles suitable for you in foreign media to prove your opinions are "internationally supported".

Then big media corporations like the BBC and CNN who do have local reporters broadcast the more unbiased truth (although simplified by necessity) live from Bangkok as in the last big troubles and get blamed by yellow/democrats/amart for being biased against them. You remember anti-CNN campaign by yellows? And their claims BBC/CNN/WSJ etc etc were all bought off by Thaksin... you probably believe that too...  

Because articles you post are so obviously biased, it might lead to others not bothering to read them too closely, guessing what they will say beforehand.

I remember you posted one good article from Political Prisoners Thailand some weeks or months back. Kudos for you for that. 





> Originally Posted by Calgary
> 
> 
> The Foreign media is known for their shameless copying and paraphrasing the Thai propaganda media. They can get away with this because not only do their readers not know, they also don't care. They have enough political problems of their own.
> 
> The foreign media is going to a whole other level however, by not only engaging in the above, but even following the paranoid media in their paranoia.
> 
> Daily and persistent stuff on Thaksin reflects the paranoia of an electoral Thai minority, but who are a media majority. 
> 
> ...

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ I can't post some things here, due to strict board rules. Also I have no wish to attract the attention of Chalerm's 400 million Baht filtering system and his band of merry little helpers in their "war room". 

Commonsense really. 

I'm not a mod, I don't get any benefit from posting the news here, so if it is okay with you and others, I'll stick to posting things that wont get me into trouble. Self-preservation being more important to me than catering to the needs of people who continually insult me, never thank me and are generally rude and obnoxious to me as often as possible. 

Cheers!  :Smile:

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ Just to add....

Everyone is free to post news articles. So if you feel some have been missed and they comply with board rules, then go right ahead, post away.

----------


## nidhogg

> ^ Just to add....
> 
> Everyone is free to post news articles. So if you feel some have been missed and they comply with board rules, then go right ahead, post away.


Precisely.

----------


## Calgary

*




 Originally Posted by nostromo

I do remember Economist being banned in Thailand


*

If I recall, it was for mentioning unmentionables.

I have no quarrel with the Economist in most cases, this one being an exception.

The Amart propaganda machine for a number of self-serving reasons, frequently run stories on Thaksin, perhaps even daily.

There are many reasons for this paranoia, principally being their fear of him. Even outside the country, he _kicked the shit out of them_ in an election. Imagine what he would do in an unfettered way inside Thailand.

Another motive is to denigrate Ms. Y. Trying to diminish her. I don't know the extent of his behind-the-scenes involvement, but it probably pales in comparison to those who were pulling Abhi's strings.

That said, my quarrel with the Economist or any other foreign publication, is when they follow the paranoia of this Amart media, by also running stories about Thaksin. They are unwittingly allowing themselves to be used by extending Amart propaganda to their foreign audiences.

Invariably this includes the anti-Thaksin narrative of the Amart, which has propagandized many Farangs here, and caused many Europeans I speak with, to sound like PADites.

----------


## nostromo

I know what you say. But Economist did have very many, one could say, anti-yellow articles, which led to them being banned in Thailand. 
Personally I wish the best luck for ms. Yingluck in these very difficult times, she seems to have handled it very well, despite the bureaucrats and top level of military disagreement. "Lower" levels of military have been doing a very good job though and police force too.





> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> I do remember Economist being banned in Thailand
> 
> ...

----------


## nostromo

Double post removed due to slow server.

----------


## nostromo

> ^ I can't post some things here, due to strict board rules. Also I have no wish to attract the attention of Chalerm's 400 million Baht filtering system and his band of merry little helpers in their "war room". 
> 
> Commonsense really. 
> 
> I'm not a mod, I don't get any benefit from posting the news here, so if it is okay with you and others, I'll stick to posting things that wont get me into trouble. Self-preservation being more important to me than catering to the needs of people who continually insult me, never thank me and are generally rude and obnoxious to me as often as possible. 
> 
> Cheers!



I do not know if you are a so called secret mod here. What I hear you are not. Which means you do not need to be unbiased and you can continue with your propaganda. But I hope you do not include me in that group who "continually insult me, never thank me and are generally rude and obnoxious to me" - for that you should consult your mate butters who is an expert on that. I have criticised you purely on your choice of news sources which you choose to present here. I have no problem with you.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

The Economist has been one of the best 'on the money' international publications to explain what's going on in Thailand to the rest of the world. It doesn't cover everything, that's true - but it seemed the Dem-led government was writing a letter to the editor nearly once a month to complain about the coverage. So IMO that meant the magazine was doing a good job.

Marwan at Inter Press, Nirmal Ghosh (Singapore Straits Times), the BBC, CNN and Al Jazeera all did very good work in covering the Red Shirt uprisings and the massacre by the army. At the end of the day though, there's only so much a foreign journalist can do in limited airtime and restricted column inches.

----------


## nostromo

Well I think personally the Economist is quite unbiased on average. Of course they have many people on board who write different articles - ok for me.

Taking a look at this:
Press freedom index from 2006 when Thaksin was in power,
and press freedom index from 2010 with military junta. Thailand dropped quite a lot. A huge lot. 
Base level is low for Thailand because of LM laws. But is you calculate that into the equation, the drop in Thai press freedom would be more massive or even totally massive.

2006:
Press Freedom Index 2006 - Reporters Without Borders

2010:
Press Freedom Index 2010 - Reporters Without Borders

Top ranking countries remain as in the past to in Northern Europe. Namely in order, Finland, Iceland, the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden being at the top. As a side note, interesting to compare that with EURO currency countries.






> The Economist has been one of the best 'on the money' international publications to explain what's going on in Thailand to the rest of the world. It doesn't cover everything, that's true - but it seemed the Dem-led government was writing a letter to the editor nearly once a month to complain about the coverage. So IMO that meant the magazine was doing a good job.
> 
> Marwan at Inter Press, Nirmal Ghosh (Singapore Straits Times), the BBC, CNN and Al Jazeera all did very good work in covering the Red Shirt uprisings and the massacre by the army. At the end of the day though, there's only so much a foreign journalist can do in limited airtime and restricted column inches.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

Funny how the closer one gets to the equator the more fucked up and corrupt it gets while the further north (or south) of the equator the better it gets (notable exception of Russia and North Korea). And please, don't say Singapore is great. Singapore is a police state for chink families who managed to ring fence themselves from the mussie malays in the 1960/70s and then closed the door to others. It's a great place to do business as long as you do it with one of them and never say chink or police state or repression.

----------


## hazz

^Good point, and a theory well confirmed by greece, italy and portugal some of the most corruption free societies in the world.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

South of the better ones mate - far south. Come on - Italy??

----------


## hazz

^ but well north of the equator. But you do have appoint, there are some obvious corrections between countries that are more than average corrupt. It would be interesting to see which are statistically significant.  I think having suffered a dictatorship in the last 50 years would be a better correlation than geography.

----------


## nostromo

> Funny how the closer one gets to the equator the more fucked up and corrupt it gets while the further north (or south) of the equator the better it gets (notable exception of Russia and North Korea). And please, don't say Singapore is great. Singapore is a police state for chink families who managed to ring fence themselves from the mussie malays in the 1960/70s and then closed the door to others. It's a great place to do business as long as you do it with one of them and never say chink or police state or repression.


Obviously there are Chinese-related people (be it HK, Taiwan, or mainland) in Singapore.They are singaporeans now.

My opinion of Singapore is that it is a great place. Having lived there recently. No police approached me to ask for id. Las t time I took long rides underground (similar to like UK where they invented it), also in many other SEA countries) to the suburbs, I was pleasently surprised how small the fare was.

And there was no fear of attack to take your wallet.

----------


## robuzo

Singapore has loosened up a lot. Interestingly, the Singaporean government's policy of openness toward foreign workers, which I think has done a lot to liven up the economy and the culture, is being opposed by the voting population. That in itself is not surprising, but what is surprising is that democracy is being allowed to function, with opposition to the PAP making its biggest gains ever, and the PAP making policy adjustments accordingly rather than simply expecting everyone to fall in line. Young Singaporeans are openly dissatisfied with one-party rule.
I think Thaksin's "vision," such as it was, was to transform Bangkok in Singapore's image, a project which but for some superficial achievements was I think doomed to failure from the start. It's inaccurate to lump the Chinese Singaporeans, especially the ones involved in making Singapore what it is, as "Chinese-related people." The Hokkien and Hakka who run Singapore are culturally not very much like the Teochew who run this joint.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/loca...-luang-prabang
*
*Noppadon: Thaksin in Luang Prabang*
Published: 22/01/2012 at 10:55 AMOnline news:
 Former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra visited  Luang Prabang, a World Heritage town and former capital of Laos, and  spent one night there, Noppadon Pattama posted on his Facebook page on  Sunday.

 Mr Noppadon, Thaksin's personal legal adviser and a former foreign  minister, said while in Luang Prabang Thaksin met a lot of people.

 The former prime minister was still highly admired by many people who  wanted to have their pictures taken with him wherever he went to, Mr  Noppadon said.

 He said Thaksin was in Luang Prabang shortly after the reshuffle of the Yingluck Shinawatra cabinet was announced.

 Thaksin had left Luang Prabang in his personal jet, he said.

----------


## Pol the Pot

The Tae Chiew are basically gangsters. Every Chinese knows that. Especially law enforcement in Shanghai, Hong Kong and Macao.

----------


## hazz

^^^I think singapore is the product of the crisis that lead to and resulted from the country parting with federal  malaysian, combined with a leadership that had  a vision for the country that went well beyond the enrichment of their family and an understanding of what was necessary to active that vision. All financed off providing a stable 'no questions asked financial serves' to SEA's most wealthy and corrupt families.

On the other hand thailand has a long history of exiling or butchering anyone who had even the remotest chance of implementing a vision that went beyond family enrichment.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

Yeah they ran off to Singapore with the loot and ring-fenced the place more than fifty years ago. They (Chinese Malay) were afraid post-colonial Malay(sia) was going to go socialist and there would be land/wealth reforms that would not be in the favour of the Chinese. So they 'opped it.

----------


## hazz

Yes, so many of malay chinese ran to singapore  that only 8 million remain making up 28% of malyasia's population and that compares to a total population of 4 million in sinagpore, which is where you seem to think they all went. perhaps Malaysians and Singaporeans are not very good at counting. 
If by socialist you actually mean communist, in malaysia this was a predominantly an ethnic chinese affair. 
And don't you think that people who are frighted of socalism would tend to not create states based, in part, on socialist principles, which have been part of the core part behind sinagpores development since independence?

----------


## Tom Sawyer

^
Singapore socialist? Come on - do you mean the housing projects, etc? Those were needed because of the limited space and requirements for a workforce (of "singaporeans"). By no measure on this planet could you say Singapore is socialist - though it has some pretty good social programmes for Singaporeans and operates under rule of law (its strength). But remember - the rule of law and transparency only exists because that there can be no further competition. So that's when it's ok to have these things (by chinese singaporean standards). There can be no challenge/ers, politically or corporeal, to the present holders of the "gold"cards. You do business with them - and them alone. Hence no threat to the present elite "order" and all is fine in corporate paradise.

----------


## StrontiumDog

Thaksin wants to return to Thailand

02-08-2012 17:32                                     

Thaksin wants to return to Thailand 


By Tom Plate

DUBAI ― Despite the blockbuster election of his sister Yinglick  Shinawatra as Thai prime minister last summer, her much-older brother  Thaksin, himself prime minister from 2001-2006, is still in exile in a  luxury townhouse in Dubai, isolated and restless, awaiting the  opportunity to return. 

Today, however, Thailand’s most controversial political figure even  admits that as its ambitious leader he was sometimes a hard man to like.  He told me: “I was so angry then ... so full of anger. And in my speed  of reaching my anger and in showing it to everyone ... I was too fast  with all that.” He says this with a kind of resigned sadness.

“That is my bad quality. My good part is being very constructive and  creative in my thinking. But when I cannot stand the pressure, I’m too  easily angered.” It is clear that this is the part of his psyche he has  come to regret. 

The military coup against him in 2006 was a dreadful setback for Thai  democracy, as well as unconstitutional. But it also true that some of  the ugly unfairness derived in part from risky behavior this very rich  man’s enemies could almost invariably point to as suspect. In effect, he  continued to act as a businessman even while he was prime minister. To  his critics and many Thais (and outside observers), this was carrying  the “CEO model” of PM too far.

But he was rich beyond belief ― a billionaire ―even before he became  prime minister. And so I wonder what he would say to this now: “Is it  business or politics that is more cutthroat? Or about the same? Or  impossible to say?” His response: “Business has explicit rules of the  game which every party respects but in politics, especially in the  pseudo- democratic countries, the rules have not been respected and the  referees have never been fair.”

He shifts in his armchair in the living room of his own in leafy  suburban Dubai and admits that to some extent at least, the problem  Thaksin had in running the country was Thaksin. His natural impatience,  which in general is a plus in the private business arena, became a  dysfunctional liability when trying to build a consensus for new policy  directions. 

I ask him: “Now, I’ve only known you for a short period of time, and I  can see you’re a strong guy. So I wonder whether you had anyone on your  staff when you were PM who was not afraid to come up to you and say,  ‘Prime Minister, if you don’t do X or Y or Z you’re going to have a  serious problem.’ My theory is you didn’t have anybody to do that for  you.”

He lets out a faint sigh and nods: “That is the weak point in Thai  culture. Thais dare not speak negative to the boss. Any negative thing  or any kind of negative comment that can annoy the boss ... well, they  try not to.”

Thaksin is at the left side of the living-room couch, poised on the edge. Usually he is sitting back. 

“So I think that the only thing we can do with this is to ask for  reconciliation. They’re afraid of me, they don’t trust that I’m not out  for revenge. But I’m not out for revenge.”

Me asking: “If ― or when ― you go back, would you promise your people in  the military, and in the PAD opposition and so on, amnesty?  Forgiveness?”

“Yes, right.”

“No witch-hunt?”

“No witch-hunt. I think forgiveness is the key. I mean it. I want to  forgive and make the whole country forgive each other. Because, if you  don’t forgive, you cannot reconcile your country. You cannot be one  nation anymore.”

Me pushing: “But some people say it would be better for Thailand overall  if Thaksin says, ‘I’m never going back.’ But you’ve never said that,  because in fact, you want to go back.”

“I definitely want to return.”

“Right, right. So it’s clear in your mind that if you go back, it’ll be better for Thailand than if you don’t go back?”

“Definitely. If I were to go back successfully, you know, the people who  are fighting against me now will not be fighting. And if I go back, and  if I do not take revenge, and if I forgive everyone, those who don’t  like me will start to feel more at ease.”

“And so what you’re saying is that you would be happy ― let me see if I  got this right ― you would be happier to go back to Thailand, even if  not as prime minister, but something lesser, than to stay here in Dubai  for another 10 years? It’s pleasant here, but part of your soul is in  agony here.”

“Right.”

“It is in agony, right?”

“Right, right. My body’s here in Dubai, my soul is there ... in Thailand.”

_Columnist and author Tom Plate has been writing about Asia and  America for the last 15 years. He is the distinguished scholar of Asian  and Pacific studies at Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles.  Contact him at platecolumn@gmail.com.  The above article is an excerpt  from his new book, “Conversations with Thaksin,” book number three in  the “Giants of Asia” series (Marshall Cavendish International,  Singapore)._

----------


## StrontiumDog

Thaksin looks to victory at every level - The Nation

Burning issue

*Thaksin looks to victory at every level*

         Piyanart Srivalo
The Nation February 22, 2012  1:00 am 
 

*Several politicians from the ruling Pheu Thai Party,  the now-defunct Thai Rak Thai party and members of the Shinawatra  family reportedly visited their boss, Thaksin Shinawatra, in Beijing  last week.*

The fugitive ex-prime minister's guests included Deputy Prime Minister  Chalerm Yoobamrung, banned ex-Thai Rak Thai politician Sudarat  Keyuraphan and Bangkok MP Karun Hosakul, as well as Thaksin's sister  Yaowapa Wongsawat and his son Panthongtae. 

Their discussion was about how to win the battle at every level of election. 

"The boss wanted to win back the political base in all areas, after  losing [some areas] to our rivals," said a party leader who asked not to  be named.

One of the biggest polls taking place this year is for the election of  presidents of the Provincial Administration Organisation (PAO) in each  of the 76 provinces. The elections will not be held on one particular  day, as they are dependent on when each incumbent's term expires. 

Winning in the PAO elections would be an excellent pointer to victory  in the next general election, which Thaksin expects could be held soon  after amendment of the Constitution is completed, a party source said. 

The source said Thaksin might have his sister, Prime Minister Yingluck  Shinawatra, call a House dissolution after the country gets a new  charter, the content of which is expected to favour the ruling Pheu Thai  Party, as it will be able to control the majority of the members of a  new Constitution Drafting Assembly (CDA).

Parliament will tomorrow consider three separate charter-amendment  drafts to seek changes to Article 291 of the post-coup 2007 Constitution  and pave the way for the setting up of a CDA. 

With expectations that a new charter would be completed by the  beginning of next year, at the earliest, calling a general election soon  after that would be perfect timing for the 111 banned politicians, who  will be freed from the ban this May, to make a comeback to politics.

However, while waiting for the charter to be completed and then a  general election, Thaksin plans to reshuffle his sister's Cabinet for a  second time once the 111 are no longer subject to the ban. 

Some of the 111 banned politicians, such as Sudarat, Pongthep  Thepkanchana, Prommin Lertsuridej, Chaturon Chaisang, Varathep  Ratanakorn and Suranand Vejjajiva, would then be appointed ministers in  Yingluck's Cabinet.

The next Cabinet reshuffle is, apparently, a win-win strategy. First,  Yingluck will have more experienced people to help her. Second, the 111  currently banned politicians will have a chance to "remove the rust".  Third, Thaksin also wants to win the battle in the Bangkok governor  election, where the current office holder's term ends next January. 

Thaksin plans to appoint Sudarat, formerly head of the party's Bangkok  MPs, as deputy prime minister overseeing Bangkok in the next reshuffle,  to prepare her for running in the gubernatorial election, the source  said.

But if Sudarat were still needed in Yingluck's government as a Cabinet  member, Pheu Thai would then recruit other candidates to run in the  election. 

One of the most important qualifications for a Bangkok governor  candidate is the ability to solve flood problems, according to a party  source. 

"We believe we have a high chance [of winning], but we have to find a  good, high-profile and outstanding figure to run as our candidate," the  source said. 

Thaksin saw an opportunity to win the battle in Bangkok after the clash  between the Democrat Party's Bangkok governor, MR Sukhumbhand  Paribatra, and Yingluck's government during the devastating flooding  that hit Bangkok late last year.

"The Democrat Party, through Sukhumbhand, failed to impress Bangkokians  over tackling the problem, despite [the party] being in administration  [of the capital] for almost eight years. So it's time for us to win back  Bangkokians' hearts," Thaksin was quoted as saying.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Five Years Ago Today: Before the Red Shirts | 2Bangkok.com
*
*Five Years Ago Today: Before the Red Shirts*

 Posted on February 22, 2012 by admin 


 Five Years Ago Today: Before the Red Shirts

_Before the Red Shirts, before the DAAD yellow shirts’ attack on Prem’s  residence, there was the original organization agitating for Thaksin:  PTV.

This all happened during Thaksin’s Revolutionary Season  (as did the 2009 and 2010 protests). These PTV protests were  rudimentary with crowds composed of clumps of impassive men who showed  little interest in the fiery speakers._


-----
The previous articles from the time....all before TD's time..........

http://2bangkok.com/07-ptv.html

*PTV Main Page*

Posted on February 24, 2007 by admin 


         (Photo: 2Bangkok.com)               
 _Right: PTV billboard          near the Din Daeng expressway on-ramp. Here is the PTV  billboard translation: Join to create democracy with true news and  information
         24 hours news station via satellite
         PTV - TV for people
         News that is news, every detail is accurate, not distorted
         Open the station on March 1
         Member subscription: call 0-2934-9000_

            May 9, 2007 - PTV billboards are gone. There was no promised protest Sunday night.  

PTV protests               on May 19-20 

PTV protest on April 27

 PTV protest on April 8

PTV protest on March 30

PTV protest on March 23

 PTV website

 
         (Photo: 2Bangkok.com)

PTV protests nothing more than a masquerade - _The Nation_, April 11, 2007
_...It's laughable that people like Chakrapob Penkair, Veera  Musigapong and  Chatuporn Prompan, among the most ardent supporters of  former prime  minister Thaksin and now PTV executives, expect people to  suddenly  consider them media professionals the moment they take off  their Thai  Rak Thai label. And they want the world to believe that if  they are  singing Thaksin's praises today, they are doing it as  journalists and  not as his political stooges...

_  PTV waits to learn its fate - _The Nation_, March 19, 2007 

PTV in debut blackout mystery - _The Nation_, March 18, 2007

PTV to go on air Wednesday - _The Nation_, February 24, 2007 
_... "I feel great. Let us not be afraid of them. Return                  our democracy and reveal the truth that Thaksin and Thai Rak Thai were                  not wrong," a supporter shouted in jubilation..._

Treat              PTV the same as ASTV, Abhisit tells govt - _The Nation_,      February 22, 2007
_...PTV was started by ex-Thai Rak Thai members after key            party figures, including caretaker leader Chaturon Chaisang, visited            people in the Northeast over the weekend, while ASTV is part of media            firebrand Sondhi Limthongkul's Manager Group.

           Thai Day Dot Com Co, the operator of ASTV, has filed a criminal lawsuit            against the Public Relations Department, alleging that it abused its            powers when questioning ASTV's legal status.

           The Administrative Court granted ASTV's request for an injunction to            stop authorities from taking it off the air while the court is            considering its petition..._

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ Very informative for some here I am sure.....recognise the faces? 

Now you know where the red shirt leadership came from.....

----------


## DroversDog

> ^ Very informative for some here I am sure.....recognise the faces? 
> 
> Now you know where the red shirt leadership came from.....


Fark you really are slow today SD? Do you have any new news? 
Are you sick of reporting gossip about the four seasons, or did you find your old yellow shirt in the back of the wardrobe and feel all nostalgic so you decided to post this?
Whybother?

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ Sorry, DD, are you drunk again? Got any photo analysis to share with us? 

It's hardly a great surprise that you attack the poster and avoid the perplexing and (what must be for you) challenging information posted above.

----------


## DroversDog

> ^ Sorry, DD, are you drunk again? Got any photo analysis to share with us? 
> 
> It's hardly a great surprise that you attack the poster and avoid the perplexing and (what must be for you) challenging information posted above.


Sorry SD your replies are getting more irrational by the day since your chums lost the election. Whybother, when you are on a hiding to nothing? You must be a busy man to post to so many forums. You are leaving your entrails all over the place  :mid:

----------


## LooseBowels

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> 
> ^ Sorry, DD, are you drunk again? Got any photo analysis to share with us? 
> 
> It's hardly a great surprise that you attack the poster and avoid the perplexing and (what must be for you) challenging information posted above.
> 
> 
> Sorry SD your replies are getting more irrational by the day since your chums lost the election. Whybother, when you are on a hiding to nothing? You must be a busy man to post to so many forums. You are leaving your entrails all over the place


 
Spot on DD, "_Whybother_"

Old SD is fast losing it on here and slipping and sliding  uncontrollably into his Thai Visa style PAD yellow nutter anti democracy rants.

"_Whybother_", indeed, "_Whybother_"    :smiley laughing:

----------


## Butterfly

our 2 resident nutters at work

where is the third fool, calgary ? eating alive by a red crowd ?  :rofl:

----------


## gymboy34

> our 2 resident nutters at work
> 
> where is the third fool, calgary ? eating alive by a red crowd ?


the red shirt faLAng guy calgary is over at the other forum tv now, dont know why?

----------


## Calgary

> Originally Posted by DroversDog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> ...


He's a 'plant' over here LB!

So '_whybother_' reading him.

----------


## Calgary

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> 
> ^ Sorry, DD, are you drunk again? Got any photo analysis to share with us? 
> 
> It's hardly a great surprise that you attack the poster and avoid the perplexing and (what must be for you) challenging information posted above.
> 
> 
> Sorry SD your replies are getting more irrational by the day since your chums lost the election. Whybother, when you are on a hiding to nothing? You must be a busy man to post to so many forums. You are leaving your entrails all over the place


"Whybother" indeed DD.

Everyone's time is valuable, so no point in wasting one's time :bananaman:

----------


## baldrick

> the red shirt faLAng guy calgary is over at the other forum tv now, dont know why?


because his reputation here is laughable - only the LB and dribblingdog kiss his arse

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> ^ Very informative for some here I am sure.....recognise the faces? 
> 
> Now you know where the red shirt leadership came from.....


"..She shrieked, with tears welling up in her eyes.."

----------


## DroversDog

> Originally Posted by gymboy34
> 
> the red shirt faLAng guy calgary is over at the other forum tv now, dont know why?
> 
> 
> because his reputation here is laughable - only the LB and dribblingdog kiss his arse


Ah look what mutant has crawled out from under its rock. It is amazing how the lowest form of bacteria has evolved enough to type shite on forums. When you can type something sensible we might class that as an achievement.  ::chitown::

----------


## baldrick

^ you forgot to kiss calgarys cock in your post

----------


## DroversDog

> ^ you forgot to kiss calgarys cock in your post


I will leave that to you as your avatar seems to be puckering up!  ::chitown::

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by baldrick
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by gymboy34
> ...


You don't do irony, do you DD....

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by DroversDog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> ...


Quite right, and I feel very strongly that your time here is wasted....

So off you trot to pastures new. There's a good troll. TV awaits...

----------


## LooseBowels

Oh "SD" tell me it ain't so  :smiley laughing: 

Tell me you ain't two timing yer old SZS monica "Itchy" for that Thai Visa rampant retarded moronic  PAD yellow nutter gay propogandist "Whybother"? :smiley laughing: 

Tell me  its not you, especially after all your desperate claims here of impartiallity, even handedness,  and neutrality  :smiley laughing: 

Credibility Zero.

Deny it or Go

----------


## LooseBowels

Well "SD", what a weez

----------


## nevets

I thought there was some news when this thread was bumped , just children playing.

----------


## hazz

It would appear so, looks like spme used the incantation

Calgary calgary calgary

And rathe like the candyman, calguty appeared out of nowhere with his bum chums

----------


## sabang

A national Referendum should be held on-
1- Exile of Thaksin
2- Constitutional amendment.

In the best and most effective democratic states- such as Switzerland- referenda can be called by private citizens, and thus the political process can not so easily be hijacked by political insiders, whatever your term for them- the beltway crowd, the canberra crowd, amart/ bureaucracy, whatever. The debate and choice is quite simple, and should be put to the citizenry directly- what is happening however is that the debate is being hijacked, and several PT politicians & functionaries are equally as guilty of this as the opposition & so called royalists.

----------


## hazz

The problem with a referendum, is that there are three possible results, you can:

Loose the referendum
Win the referendum by a small majourity
Win the referendum by a super majority

The first result would be ruinus, the second would leave you in the same position ax you were pre referendum. Only the last result puts you in a strong moral position to so you thing and tell your critics the proplehave spoken.

There will only be talk of a taksin referendum if the family are convinced they can get a gold standard result from the vote.  Its obvious that he and his family are not conviced.

----------


## Butterfly

above all when polls have indicated, even among the red elite, that Thaksin return is not a priority

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Oh "SD" tell me it ain't so 
> 
> Tell me you ain't two timing yer old SZS monica "Itchy" for that Thai Visa rampant retarded moronic  PAD yellow nutter gay propogandist "Whybother"?
> 
> Tell me  its not you, especially after all your desperate claims here of impartiallity, even handedness,  and neutrality 
> 
> Credibility Zero.
> 
> Deny it or Go


You are rather stupid aren't you.....

I don't even use ThaiVisa. Why would I? For what?

----------


## DroversDog

> Originally Posted by DroversDog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by baldrick
> ...


Ah as usual SD you have nothing of worth to add to the conversation, though it is nice to see that you have taken time out of your busy forum haunting schedule to grace us with your presence on TD.  :mid:

----------


## DroversDog

> And rathe like the candyman, calguty appeared out of nowhere with his bum chums


Thats a bit rich coming from somebody who always teams up with TD's backdoor specialist Butters.  ::spin::

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by DroversDog
> ...


As I said, you don't do irony do you DD.....

----------


## DroversDog

> And please, don't say Singapore is great. Singapore is a police state for chink families who managed to ring fence themselves from the mussie malays in the 1960/70s and then closed the door to others.


I would not call Singapore closed-doored at all. It treats non-Chinese far better then Thailand ever has. I do agree that it is a police state.

----------


## DroversDog

> Originally Posted by DroversDog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> ...


Again nothing of value to add........  ::chitown:: 
Is 'irony' your wank word this week SD? You better read the part after the pronunciation section in the dictionary before you use it again.   :deadhorsebig:

----------


## DroversDog

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> 
> our 2 resident nutters at work
> 
> where is the third fool, calgary ? eating alive by a red crowd ? 
> 
> 
> the red shirt faLAng guy calgary is over at the other forum tv now, dont know why?


Yes you would have to ask Calgary whybother posting to the cesspit of brown nosing yellow shirts when he knows that they have even less clue then TD's Baldrick. 
Maybe he just enjoys the sport...  :mid:

----------


## robuzo

> Is 'irony' your wank word this week SD? You better read the part after the pronunciation section in the dictionary


What, it's not pronounced, "I, Ernie"?

----------


## DroversDog

> The problem with a referendum, is that there are three possible results, you can:
> 
> Loose the referendum
> Win the referendum by a small majourity
> Win the referendum by a super majority
> 
> The first result would be ruinus, the second would leave you in the same position ax you were pre referendum. Only the last result puts you in a strong moral position to so you thing and tell your critics the proplehave spoken.
> 
> There will only be talk of a taksin referendum if the family are convinced they can get a gold standard result from the vote.  Its obvious that he and his family are not conviced.


It depends how the small majority is defined. If you have a close to a 100% voter turn out, then a small majority would be quite normal if both sides of politics were pushing different lines.
It does become a question though when you have a poor voter turnout as you don't know which way the non voters would have voted.

A small or super majority has much less moral value if the circumstances around the vote favored one outcome. Little things such as banning any opposition or putting parts of the country that may vote the wrong way under martial law.

----------


## hazz

^The whole point of a referendum to solve with a contentious political issue, as sabang was suggesting, is to show the opposition to the proposal that they are a small minority and weaken their moral argument to the point that they have to accept the decision of the majority and that they are fighting a lost cause.

Loosing the referendum, a low turn out,as you say, or a small majority will not have the desired effect, if anything it would give the opposition renewed vigour in their campaign. Under these circumstances it would have been better not to have had the referendum, and maybe this is why PT are not pushing for a referendum over taksin's fate

----------


## nostromo

Everyone knows SD is politically totally bought. There are some dirty undertones to relation how SD deals with his enemies, but let it be. John Lennon. Then again. we possess the right in our mind, and there is no beating that 




> Originally Posted by DroversDog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> ...

----------


## Takeovers

> Everyone knows SD is politically totally bought.


Not everybody. SD is totally oblivious of that fact.

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> Everyone knows SD is politically totally bought.
> 
> 
> Not everybody. SD is totally oblivious of that fact.


Oh, I was wrong there, thanks for pointing that out :Smile:

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ and ^^ 

My god you people are stupid.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by DroversDog
> ...


As I said, you don't do irony, do you DD....

Actually my wank word of the week is fuckwit, which describes you perfectly.

----------


## Butterfly

SD, told you many times, don't engage deranged idiots like Nostro and Drovers, they are american right wingers, no point to discuss anything with them

----------


## LooseBowels

> Originally Posted by LooseBowels
> 
> 
> Oh "SD" tell me it ain't so 
> 
> Tell me you ain't two timing yer old SZS monica "Itchy" for that Thai Visa rampant retarded moronic PAD yellow nutter gay propogandist "Whybother"?
> 
> Tell me its not you, especially after all your desperate claims here of impartiallity, even handedness, and neutrality 
> 
> ...


Oh I see what you mean  "Whybother"   :Smile:

----------


## Bobcock

> let it be. John Lennon.


Despite being credited to Lennon/McCartney, Let It Be was written and sung by Paul MCCartney. The relationship had broken beyond repair and Lennon had all but left the band by the time that album was recorded.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/poli...ces-a-giveaway
*
*Jatuporn assurances a giveaway*

*ANALYSIS:  Thaksin's latest Skype-in to red shirt crowd shows he's still the man in charge*
Published: 28/02/2012 at 02:04 AMNewspaper section: News
 Former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra has  told his red shirt supporters he will reward their core leader Jatuporn  Prompan for his allegiance.

 He made the vow during a Skype linkup before a crowd of 50,000 red shirt supporters on Saturday.

 His promise to Mr Jatuporn, a Pheu Thai list MP who was passed over  for a cabinet seat in the government, is an indication that Thaksin  still wields final authority as the de facto leader of the Pheu Thai  Party-led government.

 He made his remarks on a big screen erected at the Bonanza Khao Yai  Hotel in Nakkhon Ratchasima's Pak Chong district, where a concert was  held to persuade Thais not to allow another coup and to support the  governments' effort to amend to the constitution.

 During the concert, he tried to appease red shirts who might be  dismayed that Mr Jatuporn was not appointed to the cabinet in the most  recent reshuffle.

 "Mr Jatuporn is most suited to become a minister, but I have my own way of rewarding him," Thaksin told the red shirts.

 Thaksin also said he had recently talked to powerful figures in the  government and told them to expedite the payment of 7.5 million baht in  compensation to each family who lost a loved one during the political  chaos in 2010.

 This clearly reflects Thaksin's key role in the last cabinet  reshuffle and that co-leaders of the red shirt United Front for  Democracy against Dictatorship still have influence over the government.  As the leaders enjoy a strong support base from the red shirt legions,  Thaksin is obliged to shower the group's leadership base with rewards.

 Thaksin also indicated that he played a part in helping the Yingluck  Shinawatra administration contact foreign countries to support the  government's policies.

 It was he who liaised with Beijing and the Chinese business sector to  provide assistance to Thailand during the flood crisis last year as  well as to help produce 800,000 tablet computers for Thai students.

 However, it would do more harm than good for Thaksin to assert himself politically in the open.

 If he does, it will only cause more headaches for Prime Minister  Yingluck, his younger sister, who has struggled to deny that she is not  Thaksin's puppet.

 But Thaksin's remarks also showed he is happy with progress towards reconciliation.

 A UDD source said Thaksin is confident he can steer the government  and support its efforts to improve the economy and get the state of  politics in better shape. The source said Thaksin was sure future  conflicts would not be intense and could be managed.

 Signs of reconciliation were also evident when parliament voted to  debate two measures that would create a constitution drafting assembly  to rewrite the charter, the source said. The government also plans to  pursue legislation on reconciliation aimed at bringing about national  harmony through dialogue, not political revenge.

 Noppadon Pattama, Thaksin's legal adviser, has again rejected  suggestions Thaksin is the real leader of the government. Mr Noppadon  said Thaksin's show of appreciation for Mr Jatuporn should not be  misconstrued and that the authority to appoint a cabinet minister rests  solely with Prime Minister Yingluck.

----------


## Butterfly

isn't fascism a wonderful thing ? go Red, go

----------


## baldrick

thaksin is mentally unstable

----------


## StrontiumDog

Video exclusive interview with Bloomberg. Thaksin says he will return this year. Click the link and view the full interview. 

"Yeah, it will happen this year, I believe so," Thaksin told Bloomberg about his return to Thailand.

Thaksin Believes He'll Return From Exile This Year - Video - Bloomberg

*       Thaksin Believes He'll Return From Exile This Year     * 

_March 7 (Bloomberg) -- Thailand's Former Prime Minister  Thaksin Shinawatra talks about his exile, and the outlook for the  country's recovery after floods last year caused the economy to shrink  for the first time since 2009.       Thaksin, 62, has lived overseas since fleeing a two-year jail  sentence in 2008 for helping his wife buy land from the government. He  spoke with Bloomberg's Rishaad Salamat yesterday in Seoul. (Source:  Bloomberg)_

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Chalerm: I can get Thaksin home | Bangkok Post: news
*
*Chalerm: I can get Thaksin home*

Published:  8/03/2012 at 07:59 PMOnline news: Local News
 Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yubamrung on  Thursday said he had figured out a way to get ousted former premier  Thaksin Shinawatra home, but refused to say how as he wanted to keep it a  surprise.

 Mr Chalerm, however, said it would be with the help of the majority of the people who wanted Thaksin back.

 Mr Chalerm made the comment when asked by reporters about Thaksin’s  interview with Bloomberg Television anchor Rishaad Salamat in Seoul on  Tuesday.

 During the interview, Thaksin, who has been living abroad in  self-imposed exile since 2008, expressed hope he would return to  Thailand this year.

 Asked if there was any possible way to get Thaksin home, Mr Chalerm  said he already had a plan for that. However, he declined to disclose  it, saying it would not be a surprise nor would create excitement if the  move was unveiled now. 

 His return had nothing to do with any amendments to the 2007  Constitution. The nation needs reconciliation and it is time for all  sides to face each other, he said. 

 
_Chalerm: "Thaksin can get home soon"_

  Asked if Thaksin could return without being prosecuted, the outspoken  deputy premier said he was not trying to imply that, but there was a  way to bring him back with the help of the majority of the people and  depended on the right time.

 He refused to elaborate on how Thaksin would be spared from serving  his sentence and insisted the move should be kept as a surprise.   

 Asked if his announcement was a test meant to judge how people would  react to Thaksin’s possible return, Mr Chalerm denied it, saying only  that it was normal for people to miss their home.     

 The veteran politican called on the media to understand and give  justice to Thaksin by claiming that the ex-premier “did not commit any  offence but instead happened to do what the law prohibited”. 

 Mr Chalerm was referring to the 772 million baht Ratchadapisek land  case, for which Thaksin was sentenced to two years in jail by the  Supreme Court in 2008. 

 He claimed Thaksin sought advice from the Bank of Thailand and was  assured he could endorse the land purchase contract for his then wife  Potjaman Na Pombejra. The endorsement later earned him a prison term for  abuse of power. The Civil Court nullified the contract and ordered Ms  Potjaman to return the land in exchange for the return of her money. But  Thaksin's critics continued to use the issue to attack him.   

 Mr Chalerm repeated what he said last year that since the sale of the land was nullified, Thaksin has done nothing wrong.

----------


## sabang

This endless palaver about T's return from exile is really quite tedious, given that it was basically set in stone with the electoral trouncing of the Democrats. Will they ever progress to carping on about something that might actually give them a chance of competing in future elections?

----------


## Butterfly

> Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yubamrung on Thursday said he had figured out a way to get ousted former premier Thaksin Shinawatra home, but refused to say how as he wanted to keep it a surprise.


what a surprise, indeed  :rofl:

----------


## hazz

> Mr Chalerm repeated what he said last year that since the sale of the land was nullified, Thaksin has done nothing wrong.


Charlm is just amassing, to deliver this with a straight face, you can tell he's a policeman. 

Look son we got you banged to right's for that bank job, we found the money under your bed next to the gun, you silly boy. But I tell you what, if you hire me as your broker, I will return the money to the bank, then as there would be no missing money.... how could you have stole any? and why would I bother keeping you in this nasty damp cell covered in your blood?

----------


## nidhogg

> The veteran politican called on the media to understand and give justice to Thaksin by claiming that the ex-premier did not commit any offence but instead happened to do what the law prohibited. 
> .


 
"Parsons was Winston's fellow employee at the Ministry of Truth. He was a fattish but active man of paralyzing stupidity, a mass of imbecile enthusiasms-one of those completely unquestioning, devoted drudges on whom, more even than on the thought police, the stability of the Party depended."
- George Orwell, _1984_, Book 1, Chapter 2

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> 
> The veteran politican called on the media to understand and give justice to Thaksin by claiming that the ex-premier did not commit any offence but instead happened to do what the law prohibited. 
> .
> 
> 
>  
> "Parsons was Winston's fellow employee at the Ministry of Truth. He was a fattish but active man of paralyzing stupidity, a mass of imbecile enthusiasms-one of those completely unquestioning, devoted drudges on whom, more even than on the thought police, the stability of the Party depended."
> - George Orwell, _1984_, Book 1, Chapter 2


 :rofl: 

Brilliant!

----------


## hazz

^^I missed that, its classic. 

I wonder how far we will get next time any of us get stopped by the bib we tell them, yes officer I know I should be wearing a helmet; but I was simply doing what the law prohibits and your boss, mr chalrem, said that this does not mean I committed an offence" So are you going to let me go, or do you want to argue this out with chalerm and his son.... you know how those arguments usually end

----------


## Mr Lick

The most nationally settling manner in which Thaksin could return home would be in a casket. 

Lets hope it would be prudently sealed as snakes i believe are quite notorious for slithering their way out of tight spaces.  :Smile:

----------


## BKKBoet

^^^^^^^^^^^^

The problem about being a serial liar is that it can catch up with you sometimes. Not that he would care.

Thai red shirts protests

----------


## StrontiumDog

*TAN Network*     ‏ _

PM states her brother Thaksin won't be returning to Thailand this year; she adds she's worried about high goods' prices_

----------


## StrontiumDog

More on the above.............

PM: Thaksin not coming back yet | Bangkok Post: breakingnews

*PM: Thaksin not coming back yet*
Published: 12/03/2012 at 01:35 PMOnline news:
 Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra says her  fugitive elder brother and former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra is  not about to return home soon.

 "He is not coming back," she said.

 She had bee asked if she was concerned a new round of conflict would  erupt if Thaksin returns to the country soon,  because Deputy Prime  Minister Chalerm Yubamrung had repeatedly claimed that he would  bring the former prime minister home soon back .

 Ms Yingluck said she had replied to this question many times, and Mr Chalerm was giving his personal opinion.

 She said the current constitutional amendment process was intended  only to amend Section 291 to set up a constitution drafting assembly to  rewrite the charter, not to bring anyone home.

 On the People's Alliance for Democracy's (PAD) call for political  reforms, Ms Yingluck reaffirmed that the government is working toward  reconciliation and is open to opinions from all sides.

----------


## Neverna

Thaksin's coming. No he isn't. 
Thaksin's coming. No he isn't. 
Thaksin's coming. No he isn't. 
Thaksin's coming. No he isn't.

How many times have we heard that? 

It's a bit boring unless it's part of a cunning plan to numb our senses to the possibility and then Hey presto! He really is back!

----------


## sabang

And when he has returned? Like, yawwn. Same old same old- talk about a storm in a teacup. Talk about sore losers.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

I think he should ride into town on a fucking stagecoach. Then walk into the Bed Superclub with his spurs and sideirons. Push the air conditioned doors open and watch everyone scurry away (except the women of course - they like danger).

Then cca-click, cca-click, ccaclick - in he goes - until he finds Sondhi-and-Sonhti quivering under the table. 

"This time - I'm a shooting - and unlike your monkeys - I don't miss," he hissed.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Push to bring Thaksin back is my idea, Chalerm says - The Nation
*
*Push to bring Thaksin back is my idea, Chalerm says*

         The Nation March 13, 2012  1:00 am 

*The prime minister and foreign minister appeared to  distance themselves yesterday from Deputy Premier Chalerm Yoobamrung's  declared attempt to bring fugitive ex-PM Thaksin Shinawatra back to  Thailand as a free man.*

Chalerm also stressed yesterday that his push for a reconciliation law,  which would result in amnesty for people linked to political conflict  in recent years, did not involve the ruling Pheu Thai Party, the  government, or Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra.

      Asked about the likelihood of Thaksin coming back to the country this  year, as Chalerm had said, Yingluck just said yesterday: "He cannot  return."

      The prime minister said it was Chalerm's personal view, adding that the  matter would depend on Parliament, and not any one person. "We believe  that everyone will act with the public interest and national benefit in  mind," she said.

She also denied the government's support for constitutional changes was aimed at ensuring any one person's return to Thailand.

      In 2008, Thaksin was sentenced to two years in jail for abuse of power,  in a case based on an inquiry by the post-coup Assets Examination  Committee. He left Thailand shortly before the court read its verdict  and has been living in self-exile, mostly in Dubai.

      Foreign Minister Surapong Towichukchaikul said yesterday he was unaware  of Chalerm's plan to bring Thaksin back this year. "I don't know about  that. I didn't follow it."

      He said that as a Thai citizen, Thaksin could return to Thailand under  the current legal process, adding that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs  had not provided any support in regard to the matter. 

      The foreign minister accused the opposition of trying to politicise the  issue, and asked yellow-shirt protesters to "help build up the country  and restore happiness for Thais".

      Opposition leader Abhisit Vejjajiva said yesterday that as head of the  government, Yingluck could not deny being an interested party. "She has a  conflict of interest, so she has to insist she is going to protect the  national interest," he said, referring to the fact that Yingluck is  Thaksin's younger sister.

      Abhisit, also the Democrat Party leader, said the conflict was now  between the country's legal system and Thaksin, who was trying to avoid  judicial power over him. 

      "Prime Minister Yingluck must represent the state in maintaining the  rule of law and the legal principle so that the country can go forward,"  he said, in an interview to the pro-Democrat, satellite-based Blue Sky  Channel.

      Chalerm, meanwhile, said he never consulted with the prime minister  about any plan to secure Thaksin's return. He said because Thaksin and  Yingluck were siblings, the prime minister should have nothing to do  with the matter.

      "If Abhisit wants to know about this in detail, he should ask me," Chalerm said.

      The veteran politician said he had campaigned for Thaksin's return  since 2009. He would propose the reconciliation law by relying on at  least 20 Pheu Thai MPs to sponsor the bill, adding that "every affected  element would benefit". He cited Article 142 of the Constitution, which  states that a bill may be introduced by at least 20 members of the House  of Representatives. 

      Chalerm said he had no need to whitewash Thaksin's wrongdoing "because  he never committed any. There is no need for him to get an amnesty or  pardon."

      He declined to comment when asked about the court verdict against  Thaksin in the Ratchadaphisek land scandal, in which the ex-premier was  sentenced to two years in jail for abuse of power.

      Yingluck had no involvement in his push for the reconciliation law and he had never talked with Thaksin about it, he said.

      Chalerm declined to be specify whether Thaksin would return to Thailand  this year. "I insist I will do it [push for the law]. If the  reconciliation act succeeds, all sides will have no problems. I'm  confident I will be able to do it," he said.

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ Funny as hell. 

Yingluck, Thaksin's brother, denies being involved. Chalerm, Thaksin's right-hand man takes the flack. How sweet. 

I guess no one talked to anyone in government here....or family....

_"Foreign Minister Surapong Towichukchaikul said yesterday he was unaware   of Chalerm's plan to bring Thaksin back this year. "I don't know about   that. I didn't follow it."_

----------


## Butterfly

we have to question Chalerm motives for being so public about it, what is he trying to accomplish ? some kind of sign of "loyal support" so when he takes the Premiership, he can't be accused by Thaksin minions of a government coup ?

----------


## Mr Lick

> Chalerm said he had no need to whitewash Thaksin's wrongdoing "because he never committed any. There is no need for him to get an amnesty or pardon."


 
It appears Charlem is still making full use of the facilities available at Parliamentary bar prior to issuing any statements  :Smile:

----------


## baldrick

> we have to question Chalerm motives for being so public about it


 aiming for popular support as he probably knows he is being lined up for the chop because he is such a liability

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Democrat calls for amnesty review - The Nation
*
*Democrat calls for amnesty review*

         The Nation March 13, 2012  2:06 pm 
 

*Democrat MP Nipit Intarasombat on Tuesday called for  a review of an amnesty proposal to be granted to protesters with  non-criminal linkage to political rallies held from 2005 to 2010.*

Nipit questioned the research methodology of King Prajadhipok's  Institute in spearheading the amnesty as part of the reconciliation  process.

"I think the proposal should be reconsidered because it is based on a questionable study," he said.

He said in forming the proposal, the institute had solicited the views  of 47 individuals who were asked to fill in a questionaire.

Of the 47, 10 might have a conflict of interest since they would directly benefit from the amnesty, he said.

The 10 included former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, red-shirt  leader Kwanchai Praipana and Deputy Agriculture Minister Natthawut  Saikua.

----------


## StrontiumDog

Thai-ASEAN News Network - Deputy Agriculture Minister Endorses Thaksin's Return

Deputy Agriculture Minister Endorses Thaksin's Return 

UPDATE : 13 March 2012

*Deputy Agriculture Minister Nattawut  Saikuer claims that former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra should  receive justice and allowed to return to Thailand to fight his charges.  He also asked all sides to help promote national reconciliation.

 Former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, who is currently living in a  self-imposed exile abroad, announced to the foreign press earlier that  he will return to Thailand this year.
*

However, Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra has contradicted her  brother's claim, saying that it is unlikely and his return will take  place this year.

Deputy Agriculture Minister Nattawut Saikuer, who is also a prominent  red shirt leader, has also weighted in on the speculation, stating that  Thaksin should be given justice and allowed to return to the country to  fight his charges.

Nattawut believes that Thaksin is a part of the ongoing political rift  and that the former prime minister will return once the country is  deemed to be fully democratized again. He said that Thaksin opted not to  come back at this time because he is still be persecuted by his  opponents.

Nattawut claimed that Thaksin issue is a part of the national  reconciliation process and asked all sides to address the problem  together.

----------


## StrontiumDog

More...

Thaksin deserves better fate than exile, Nattawut says | Bangkok Post: news

*Thaksin deserves better fate than exile, Nattawut says*
Published: 14/03/2012 at 01:49 AMNewspaper section: News

 Ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra should not  suffer the same fate as Thammasat University founder Pridi Banomyong and  the university's former rector Dr Puay Ungpakorn, says Deputy  Agriculture and Cooperatives Minister Nattawut Saikuar.

 The two prominent figures in Thailand's history lived in exile for a  long time and were recognised for their contributions to the country  only after many years.

 "With the situation Thaksin finds himself in, we should not let something like that happen to him," Mr Nattawut said.

 In 1939, Pridi led the civilian wing of the revolt that was  instrumental in putting an end to the absolute monarchy. He was exiled  to China and died later in France.

 Puay, hailed as incorruptible and a champion of education, was once  branded a communist. After the massacre of Oct 6, 1976, he went to live  in England, where he died.

 Mr Nattawut said there had been a systematic effort to destroy  Thaksin, who would return when Thailand had restored democracy. It was  not possible to separate the Thaksin factor from national  reconciliation.

 The former premier plays a major role in the conflict and the case  should be viewed from the "big picture" that includes Thaksin.

 "I think many are waiting for Thaksin to return but it would depend on the political situation," Mr Nattawut said.

 He said the coup-appointed Assets Scrutiny Committee, which sought  prosecution of Thaksin after the 2006 coup, was biased. It was created  by the Council for National Security, the coup engineer, and was  obligated to rule that Thaksin was corrupt, otherwise it would have no  justification for the coup.

 Meanwhile, a source in the Pheu Thai Party said a former cabinet  member in the government of the now-dissolved Thai Rak Thai Party was  pushing for a law to give an amnesty to national politicians pressed  with legal charges related to their political duties, including Thaksin,  after the coup.

 The source said Pheu Thai would have nothing to do with the bill, to avoid criticism.

 The bill will be supported by a group of former Thai Rak Thai politicians who plan to join Pheu Thai later, the source added.

 Former prime minister Anand Panyarachun said yesterday that  long-standing economic inequality was behind the political turmoil over  the past few years.

 He said access to quality schools was limited to children from good families.

 Poorer people face inequality in higher education, and under the law, which affronts their dignity.

 People who lack money try to elevate their status through lobbying, corruption and flattery.

 "If the nation continues to be plagued with corruption, it will  collapse. This may not happen in our generation but our children or  grandchildren will see it," he said.

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ Mr Public Relations company doing his best for his long time employer once again....

----------


## robuzo

^Thaksin and Pridi: Both were forced to live in exile. That's where the comparison, and my reading of this article, ends.

----------


## Mr Lick

> Deputy Agriculture Minister Nattawut Saikuer, who is also a prominent red shirt leader, has also weighted in on the speculation, stating that Thaksin should be given justice and allowed to return to the country to fight his charges.


As far as i am aware he was CONVICTED and failed to appeal within the statutory time frame.

There are no 'charges' to fight.  :Smile:

----------


## noelbino

Right on there.
The Thai court systems allows for a multitude appeals to higher courts.
He did not take this option, but chose to say he was persecuted.
He could have back at anytime and appealed and appealed and appealed.
He chose his bed and now should lie in it.
He is an AH and expects everybody's sympathy.

----------


## sabang

Yawwn. Thaksin, who's government was elected by the largest majority in Thai history, was ousted by an illegal, treasonous military putsch. Then the 'courts' & various 'panels' were established &/or rigged, in an attempt to both 'post factum' justify the coup, and absolve the perpetrators of Capital crimes. Fail. No existing judgement against him would withstand legal scrutiny, whether guilty or not. What you or I might think about the guy is irrelevent.

Considering there are so very few of you, you yellowbellies emit a very loud whine.  :rofl:

----------


## noelbino

But that Government was only allowed to continue due to a flawed verdict of a court.

----------


## mao say dung

> But that Government was only allowed to continue due to a flawed verdict of a court.


True enough. 

But the reasoning at the time had to have been that since the courts usually dance to the tune of either the army, the palace or some other congeries of corrupt power brokers, it couldn't hurt to jig to the rat-a-tat-tat of public opinion for once.

----------


## sabang

We all know where this is going, a deal. Those implicated in and compromised by the coup will not face justice in any meaningful sense, and neither will Thaksin go to jail or remain in exile indefinitely. The pawns of red and yellow color will either be united as cellmates, or another mutual (probably partial) amnesty deal will be arrived at. The constant and irresponsible Bkk media coup talk is falling on deaf ears- the Military leadership, or whomever they listen to, isn't that dumb, and PT isn't going to tarnish their brass- because they ain't that dumb either. May as well get used to it. What is 'solved'? Nothing, although you might say an egregious wrongdoing is undone, and we're back to zero.

----------


## lom

> What is 'solved'? Nothing, although you might say an egregious wrongdoing is undone, and we're back to zero.


There is only a small problem there - zero wasn't any good and was what caused the ousting of Thaksin with help from the military.

----------


## Mr Lick

Of course i was merely pointing out the 'quality' of the ministers/deputy ministers in power atm. 

The Democrats themselves may very well have a few of their own but in my view PTP are well ahead and will cross the finishing line with ease, especially with the champion chump, Captain Chalerm at the helm. Love him really!  :Smile:

----------


## sabang

Yes, I'm sure you guys must dream of the halcyon days of the Banharn administration.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 
Forget about Thaksin, because this is much bigger than him.

----------


## rickpattaya

Chalerm talks a lot more sense when he's pissed.

----------


## hazz

> Originally Posted by noelbino
> 
> 
> But that Government was only allowed to continue due to a flawed verdict of a court.
> 
> 
> True enough. 
> 
> But the reasoning at the time had to have been that since the courts usually dance to the tune of either the army, the palace or some other congeries of corrupt power brokers, it couldn't hurt to jig to the rat-a-tat-tat of public opinion for once.


the justice system in thailand thinking of public opion, they were simply doing what most senior government officers do, look after the interests of those who control their careers. you have to remember that thailand was facing a great deal of what the establishment would have perceived as chaos at the time taksin was elected, the newspapers we actually reporting the results of investigative journalism, even a government minister was taken out by one story. Taksins popularity was in part due to the discust at just how much corruption was being reported about the democrat government at the time. There really was a feeling in the public that a man rich beyond the dreams of averist, would have no reason to be corrupt.

Obviously things were not going the way the the establishment wanted, the children being allowed to play with the country. The establishment wanted a strong leader who would put an end to this experiment the public forced upon them in 1997, and they saw taksin as the man, they sorted his little judicial issue and lets be honest he did not disappoint them in the beginning.

----------


## baldrick

> Thaksin, who's government was elected by the largest majority in Thai history


which election year are we talking about ?

----------


## sabang

His re-election (also a first), Feb 2005.

----------


## rickpattaya

> His re-election (also a first), Feb 2005.


And i guess that there was definitely no vote buying going on in 2005. Hence the huge majority.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> ^Thaksin and Pridi: Both were forced to live in exile. That's where the comparison, and my reading of this article, ends.


do u understand robuzo's point SD?

----------


## lom

> Yes, I'm sure you guys must dream of the halcyon days of the Banharn administration.


Yes everything can be explained with simplified thinking, right Sabang?
Those who don't like Thaksin must be Barnham supporters, those who don't support the red shirt movement must be yellow shirts.

I suppose it is trait from your previous occupation - if it ain't credit then it must be debit.. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## rickpattaya

Greened Iom

----------


## mao say dung

> The establishment wanted a strong leader who would put an end to this experiment the public forced upon them in 1997, and they saw taksin as the man, they sorted his little judicial issue and lets be honest he did not disappoint them in the beginning.


There is speculation and there is pure fantasy. This leans to the latter.

There was a great deal of concern that there would be a massive outcry if such an obvious and overwhelming favorite was turned out on a mere question of corruption.

----------


## mao say dung

> Those who don't like Thaksin must be Barnham supporters, those who don't support the red shirt movement must be yellow shirts.


So who or what do you imagine anti-Reds who base all their political "insight" into Thai politics on the repeated assertion that "Thaksin was bad" do in fact support?
And please don't say no one and nothing, cuz that is just handwaving reduced to absurdity.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by lom
> 
> Those who don't like Thaksin must be Barnham supporters, those who don't support the red shirt movement must be yellow shirts.
> 
> 
> So who or what do you imagine anti-Reds who base all their political "insight" into Thai politics on the repeated assertion that "Thaksin was bad" do in fact support?
> And please don't say no one and nothing, cuz that is just handwaving reduced to absurdity.


Thats rich coming from a nitwit who's 'politica'l 'insight' leads him to the conclusion that there's nothing wrong with vote buying coz everyone does it.

----------


## hazz

> Originally Posted by hazz
> 
>  The establishment wanted a strong leader who would put an end to this experiment the public forced upon them in 1997, and they saw taksin as the man, they sorted his little judicial issue and lets be honest he did not disappoint them in the beginning.
> 
> 
> There is speculation and there is pure fantasy. This leans to the latter.
> 
> There was a great deal of concern that there would be a massive outcry if such an obvious and overwhelming favorite was turned out on a mere question of corruption.


your right I could be fantasising, but consider this.

Why did thailand get a new constitution in 1997?Since Rakkiat Sukthana, how many ministers have ever been jailed fir corruption?how many times have ordinary thai's been able to successfully campaign against discrimation and as a result change the law?

These are just a few of the remarkable events, very much from ground up stuff, that happened between 1996 and 2000.... then nothing. So perhaps there is something to what I am saying

----------


## mao say dung

> there's nothing wrong with vote buying coz everyone does it.


Got a cite, there, halfway...er...wit?

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by robuzo
> 
> 
> ^Thaksin and Pridi: Both were forced to live in exile. That's where the comparison, and my reading of this article, ends.
> 
> 
> do u understand robuzo's point SD?


Yes, do you?

However, seeing as it is Natthawut doing the talking, perhaps you'd like to take the time to address your point to him?

"_Ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra should not  suffer the same fate as  Thammasat University founder Pridi Banomyong and  the university's  former rector Dr Puay Ungpakorn, says Deputy  Agriculture and  Cooperatives Minister Nattawut Saikuar._"

----------


## mao say dung

> Since Rakkiat Sukthana, how many ministers have ever been jailed fir corruption?


I agree that his was a remarkable case and that the '97 Constitution played a significant role in *how* it played out, but not so clearly in the fact that the prosecution was eventually successful.

I also think that if it had been anything other than a nationwide, blatant ripoff run through the medical system and effecting mainly rural, poor people, it wouldn't have gone the way it did, '97 Constitution or no. The fact that it was done at a time when the economy was tanked  and people all over were suffering also contributed.

Your suggestion that it was "investigative journalism" and a "story" that got him done is dead wrong. It was the combined efforts of two rural medical bodies, both parts of the bureaucracy, and a coalition of NGOs, with Rosana Tositrakul acting as the public face, that finally got the media onboard with predictable results. There was no investigative journalism involved.

It is a case that would make for a fine study of how the Thai system manages to be utterly corrupt and yet rarely teeters over into total horror in areas like public medicine, which are remarkably good in spite of the system. I don't think it makes much of study in how judicial procedure or bureaucratic practice was on an upswing at the time.

A number of other officials went to jail in this case and a lot of people who supported the ripoff got off with little more than embarrassment. It also tore apart the SAP.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
>  there's nothing wrong with vote buying coz everyone does it.
> 
> 
> Got a cite, there, halfway...er...wit?


Why do I need a cite?

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by robuzo
> ...


Thaksin wasn't forced into exile, he chose it so he could stir up trouble better  or just panicked and ran, rather go through the court battles. 

His family are living here facing very similar charges with not much problem.

----------


## LooseBowels

See all the PAD yellow nutters on here are as bitter and  twisted as ever that the great man Khun T was the continued, overwhelming choice, again,  of the democratically minded elements of the thai people. :Smile: 

Fantastic to see the squealing and squirming of the electoraliy crushed minority nutter groups, and their mindless intoxicated ranting and thrashings.

Old News

You can't argue with that

----------


## BKKBoet

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> Deputy Agriculture Minister Nattawut Saikuer, who is also a prominent red shirt leader, has also weighted in on the speculation, stating that Thaksin should be given justice and allowed to return to the country to fight his charges.
> 
> 
> As far as i am aware he was CONVICTED and failed to appeal within the statutory time frame.
> 
> There are no 'charges' to fight.


Actually there are. There are still a number of outstanding charges that are still to go to court, the most serious being the one where he approved a Bht 3 Billion soft loan to the Burmese Junta to buy satellite equipment from his own company Shinsat. (Not sure if this has been paid back yet?).

----------


## mao say dung

> Why do I need a cite?


Because I've never said what you said I said and instead of doing the usual yellow-dog/Nation thing of just saying whatever sounds good at the time I think you should provide a citation to back up your crap.

----------


## sabang

> And i guess that there was definitely no vote buying going on in 2005. Hence the huge majority.


Talk about clutching at straws. The two largest, and only absolute, electoral majorities in Thai history belong to Yingluck and Thaksin Shinawatra. And some of you are still insinuating that these resounding victories were 'paid for' :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): . Get real- is it any wonder that the constant carping from the Democrat side of the table, endlessly shoved down our throats by the irrelevant Bangkok media, falls on deaf ears? Hardly.

The Democrat party is not popular with the average voter, certainly when compared to PT, and it's childish petulance only alienates it further from the voter base. They really need to grow up, literally, if they are to compete in a democratic sense. If there is one crew that makes Thaksin look good, it is the Democrat party.

----------


## Thaihome

> Originally Posted by rickpattaya
> 
> And i guess that there was definitely no vote buying going on in 2005. Hence the huge majority.
> 
> 
> Talk about clutching at straws. The two largest, and only absolute, electoral majorities in Thai history belong to Yingluck and Thaksin Shinawatra. And some of you are still insinuating that these resounding victories were 'paid for'. Get real- is it any wonder that the constant carping from the Democrat side of the table, endlessly shoved down our throats by the irrelevant Bangkok media, falls on deaf ears? Hardly.
> 
> The Democrat party is not popular with the average voter, certainly when compared to PT, and it's childish petulance only alienates it further from the voter base. They really need to grow up, literally, if they are to compete in a democratic sense. If there is one crew that makes Thaksin look good, it is the Democrat party.


The majority that TRT won in 2005 was due to the earlier merging of Chavalit’s New Aspiration Party with the TRT. People elect local politicians to Parliament regardless what party those politicians are aligned with for that election. 

Even though Thaksin engaged in a very professional and effective PR campaign when he was PM that focused on his personal popularity, I would not read anything more into his election other than his ability to get the local level north and northeast regional politicians and their godfathers to align with him. 

Election results are based on who a provincial godfather is aligned with. One only has to look a map of election results to see how true this is. How would you explain the Democrat’s winning Phitsanulok, located right in the middle of PT country?
TH

2011 Eelection

----------


## sabang

> Election results are based on who a provincial godfather is aligned with.


A lot less now than before Thaksin, inconveniently. Chief amongst these 'Godfathers' are the likes of Banharn, Suthep, Nevin & Kamnan Poh. None are PT, although in the shifting ooze of Thai politics, who knows about tomorrow.

Admit what you know to be the truth- PT in it's various incarnations has trumped *all* of the democratic elections since T's original election in 2001, because they are more popular with the Thai voter. 

The longer the Democrats remain in denial, and childishly petulant, the longer they will remain democratic also-rans with a regional following in Bangkok and the south. Even in Bangkok and central Thailand their historical advantage is under threat- people, real people, are getting just plain sick of them.

----------


## Mr Lick

The Shinawatra's have been involved in vote buying for as long as i have resided in Thailand, notably 2 of their national political parties have been dissolved in the past 5 years due to violations of electoral laws. 

Additonally111 members of the TRT party i believe, including Thaksin, were banned in 2007 for a period of 5 years for electoral irregularities/fraud

The reformed Shinawatra supported party, PPP who won the next election in 2007 were again dissolved in 2008 for guess what? Yes, electoral fraud.

I might add that during the most recent general election in 2011, vote buying by PTP could be witnessed in the area where i reside (Central Issan). The village where i live incidentally had a by-election less than 2 ago and once again the PTP member was offering a cash payment for votes. (only 100 baht on this occasion, so things must be getting a wee bit tighter for the big man) 

Of course not everyone will sell their vote, especially those who either have a conscience or have an understanding of democracy. Unfortunately for those who urgently need to put a meal on the table for their family, make a debt payment etc; the temptation is there.  :Smile:

----------


## Scaramanga

> How would you explain the Democrat’s winning Phitsanulok



They cheated

----------


## Butterfly

> The longer the Democrats remain in denial, and childishly petulant, the longer they will remain democratic also-rans with a regional following in Bangkok and the south. Even in Bangkok and central Thailand their historical advantage is under threat- people, real people, are getting just plain sick of them.


The Democrats are the Palace party, it's not really a political party, that's the problem actually. There is no credible opposition here in Thailand, they always seem to get bought out eventually. Therefore no political progress possible.




> The two largest, and only absolute, electoral majorities in Thai history belong to Yingluck and Thaksin Shinawatra.


I am sure Stalin and Castro will agree with you, nothing like a good majority to establish democracy in action and credibility. The problem is that it is not. A majority is not a sign of democracy, hardly. Again see Castro and Stalin majority election win as an example. It can only be a credible democratic win when you have a credible opposition. In the case of Thailand and PT, the game was rigged. Money and no competition, typical MO of a business monopoly from a Chinese tycoon.




> Get real- is it any wonder that the constant carping from the Democrat side of the table, endlessly shoved down our throats by the irrelevant Bangkok media, falls on deaf ears? Hardly.


where is the opposition ? why are the reds being bought out ? ask yourself these questions before lecturing us about the merit of Democracy. It's not working here, period. Don't confuse Fascism and populism with Democracy.

----------


## sabang

TH, I have a bone to pick. Not necessarily with you, but with your source. I happen to live in a democrat constituency in Isaan- it has remained democrat for the last two elections. I live in the most electorally diverse Province in Thailand- Ubon Ratchathani. Four parties won seats there.



But does that show in this map- Nope, not at all. The map is blatantly inaccurate, unfortunately.

More positively, for those who think Isaan is an irrevocable sea of red, they should think again. But the Dem's are doing themselves absolutely no favors, as usual. The most electorally uniform region of Thailand remains the south, and it is Democrat.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Thaksin to celebrate Songkran in Laos - The Nation
*
*Thaksin to celebrate Songkran in Laos*

         The Nation March 15, 2012  9:39 am 
 

*Former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra has  made plans to visit Laos during the Songkran festival from April 13 to  15, Pheu Thai MP Somkid Balthaisong said on Thursday.*

"Thaksin has conveyed a message that anyone who misses and wants to see  him can meet him in Laos," Somkid said upon his return from meeting  Thaksin in Hong Kong.

He said he talked to Thaksin for about 10 minutes, seeking his blessing  for his daughter Manthana Balthaisong, who will run for office in Nong  Khai.

Manthana is an aspiring candidate for the chairwoman position of Nong Khai Provincial Administrative Organisation.

----------


## sabang

I'm curious- where did he celebrate Chinese new year?

----------


## baldrick

> Money and no competition


let us not forget violent intimidation of candidates from other parties

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Pheu Thai members head to Cambodia to meet Thaksin | Bangkok Post: news
*
*Pheu Thai members head to  Cambodia to meet Thaksin*
Published: 16/03/2012 at 01:54 AMNewspaper section: News

 Former premier Thaksin Shinawatra has arrived in  Cambodia to visit the sick father of Prime Minister Hun Sen, said a  Pheu Thai Party source.

 Many members of the Pheu Thai Party have flown to Cambodia to meet Thaksin, the source added yesterday.

 Thaksin will tour countries in the region for a while before  returning to Dubai in the United Arab Emirates, where he lives in exile.

 Thaksin was spotted by reporters at Phokeethra Golf and Spa Resort in  Siem Reap. He was accompanied by former Thai Rak Thai executive  Yongyuth Tiyapairat, red shirt leader Suporn Attawong and National  Parks, Wildlife, and Plant Conservation Department chief Damrong Pidech.

 Noppadon Pattama, Thaksin's legal adviser, said it was normal for  Pheu Thai members to make a trip to see Thaksin when he arrived in a  neighbouring country for a visit.

 Mr Noppadon insisted Thaksin's  stay in Cambodia has no political  motive. Now is not the time for any major reshuffle of the cabinet or  government officials, he said.

 Somkid Barnthaisong,  Pheu Thai MP for Nong Khai, said Thaksin would  be in Laos from April 13-15 to celebrate the Songkran festival.

 Meanwhile, Sunai Jullpongsathon, chairman of the House committee on  foreign affairs, said he and members of his panel may meet Thaksin while  his panel spends time in Cambodia.

 The committee reportedly decided to visit Cambodia instead of Myanmar  this week following reports that Thaksin was expected to head to  Cambodia.

 It was reported that members of the committee who will travel to  Cambodia from today until Sunday were members of the Pheu Thai Party.

 Mr Sunai said earlier it was cheaper to go to Cambodia instead of Myanmar.

 He said the aim of his visit to Cambodia was to meet Veera  Somkwamkid, the coordinator of the Thai Patriots Network, and his  secretary Ratree Pipattanapaiboon, both of whom are  imprisoned in Phnom  Penh for espionage and illegal entry into Cambodia. They were arrested  in late December 2010.

 The Foreign Ministry has said it wants to negotiate with Cambodia on a  prisoner exchange deal to bring the activists home. Veera is reported  to be in ill health.

 Mr Sunai said the panel's visit would help foster bilateral  cooperation to improve public health for residents on the common border.

----------


## sabang

I'm relieved the Dem's aren't in charge. There'd be another border war.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*It'll be a bumpy ride home, amnesty or not | Bangkok Post: opinion
*
*It'll be a bumpy ride home, amnesty or not*
Published: 15/03/2012 at 08:10 AMNewspaper section: News

 Thaksin Shinawatra's declaration that he wants  to come back to Thailand from self-exile is another attempt to sound out  the public about whether he is likely to get away returning as a free  man.

 
_Former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra gestures during a meeting  with Bangkok Post and Post Today senior editors at Fauchon Le Cafe in  Dubai on Feb 29._

 Supporters of the deposed former prime minister are likely to end up disappointed.

 Korkaew Pikulthong, a Pheu Thai list MP and key red shirt figure, is  among loyalists who believe Thaksin will return sooner rather than  later.

 Thaksin spends most of his time in Dubai but he travels to other countries including a recent trip to South Korea and Hong Kong.

 Mr Korkaew said Thaksin opponents have lost their steam, citing a  rally by the People's Alliance for Democracy against Dictatorship (PAD)  last Saturday at Lumpini Park which failed to draw the support which  such rallies have traditionally managed to pull.

 PAD supporters gathered to send the message to the government that  Pheu Thai should avoid any charter changes which affect the status of  the monarchy or which clear the way for former telecoms tycoon Thaksin  to come back to the country without facing a penalty for his legal  misdeeds.

 The PAD and opposition Democrat Party suspect the government has a hidden agenda in wanting to change the charter.

 Pheu Thai wants to rewrite the constitution because it was written by  people handpicked by the coup makers after they drove Thaksin out of  the country in 2006.

 So far, the campaign has met few obstacles, after the House passed on  its first reading three bills which will set in motion the rewrite  process.

 The drafts will amend Section 291 to create a body which will rewrite the charter.

 The army, which forced Thaksin out of power in 2006, appears to have  no problem working with his sister, Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra.

 "Now everybody realises the need to reconcile because everybody knows  there is no way to get rid of Thaksin," Mr Korkaew said. "It's better  to keep him so he can help the country."

 But Komson Phokong, a law academic at Sukhothai Thammathirat Open University, disagrees.

 He said changing the charter alone would not necessarily lead to a trip back home for Thaksin.

 The anti-Thaksin camp should not be underestimated because the issue has not reached a make or break situation, he said.

 They would come back in force once the charter rewrite process  reaches a decisive stage because they are looking forward to the day  when Thaksin has to serve his jail term. They do not want to see anybody  holding themselves above the law, the former drafter of the 2007  constitution warned.

 Scrapping Section 309 would bring to an end all cases involving Thaksin including the Ratchadaphisek land deal.

 The Supreme Court's Criminal Division for Holders of Political  Positions convicted and sentenced Thaksin to two years in jail in 2008  for abuse of authority in relation to the deal.

 Thaksin was prime minister at the time and the court ruled in his  absence that he helped his then wife, Khunying Potjaman na Pombejra, win  a bid for a plot of land in one of the prime areas of Bangkok.

 The deputy prime minister and the government's legal chief Chalerm  Yubamrung is promoting a reconciliation bill to give an amnesty to all  people affected by the 2006 coup.

 Mr Chalerm has said the proposed bill would benefit all colour-coded  members and denied it was aimed at helping Thaksin under the guise of  national reconciliation.

 But Mr Komson sees no chance for Thaksin to hitch a free ride back home on this bill.

 The bill would move nowhere if it does not clearly benefit Thaksin, he said.

 Opponents of Thaksin in and outside parliament and the silent  majority would join hands to block it if Mr Chalerm pushes it to the  Lower House with the aim of having Thaksin come back unpunished, he  said.

 PAD lawyer Suwat Apaipak was pessimistic about the chances of Thaksin's return this year.

 He said Mr Chalerm's reconciliation bill will serve as a bargaining  chip for him in talks with the former prime minister to ensure Mr  Chalerm will still have a prominent role in government even if Thaksin  comes home.

 "I'm sure Mr Chalerm is happy sitting at the top of the table as he  is today, and would rather keep that job than being a mere wine server  in the corner of the room when Thaksin returns," Mr Suwat said.

 Mr Suwat said Mr Chalerm is not alone in wanting Thaksin to stay  abroad for the time being. Thaksin's homecoming could upset many key  Pheu Thai figures and cabinet members, as their jobs might have to  change.

 Many Pheu Thai ministers in the Yingluck government are also anxious  to know what will happen to them after former executive members of the  disbanded Thai Rak Thai Party, from which the Pheu Thai Party draws many  of its MPs, finish serving their five-year political ban at the end of  May. Ms Yingluck will reshuffle her government to make room for them to  join her administration.

 For these players, anything which gives them a chance to stay in  power would be better than supporting measures which result in Thaksin's  return, if they think this could threaten their jobs. The charter  change process and reconciliation bill might be intended to help smooth  the way for Thaksin's return, but if some members of the ruling party or  the government dig in their heels, he could have a difficult time of it  nonetheless.


*Nattaya Chetchotiros is Assistant News Editor, Bangkok Post.*

----------


## baldrick

> "Thaksin has conveyed a message that anyone who misses and wants to see him can meet him in Laos,"


I wonder if calgary is enroute

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Thaksin denies he will return for Songkran | Bangkok Post: news
*
*Thaksin denies he will return for Songkran*

*Govt, red shirts, play down Kwanchai vision*
Published: 21/03/2012 at 01:58 AMOnline news: Politics
 Deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra denies  plans are afoot by a red-shirt leader to bring him back to Thailand  during the Songkran holidays.

 Thaksin did not deny his intention to return from self-exile  eventually but said he would not return in the way set out by red shirt  Kwanchai Praipana.

 "I have no clue," he said in a telephone interview. "That's his idea.  That's the way he is. He gets carried away with what he thinks and he  always thinks it out loud."

 The former premier said his comeback would depend on timing and the  political situation in Thailand but added: "It will not be the way Mr  Kwanchai has said."

 The leader of the red shirts in Udon Thani came out of a meeting of  key leaders in 20 northeastern provinces in Khon Kaen on Monday, saying  they planned to bring back their political idol to Thailand across the  Thai-Lao Friendship Bridge in Nong Khai.

 He would return after celebrating the traditional New Year festival in Laos, he claimed.

 "Pol Col Thaksin will return as a hero with 40,000-50,000 red shirts  in Nong Khai and Bung Kan waiting to greet him at the bridge," Mr  Kwanchai said.

 A Lao government source said his government knew nothing about Thaksin's plans other than what it read in the media.

 Thaksin visited the old Lao capital of Luang Prabang early this year to make merit.

 United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship co-leaders and  members of the ruling Pheu Thai Party yesterday criticised Mr Kwanchai  for his remarks.

 Jatuporn Prompan, a UDD leader and Pheu Thai Party list MP, said any  plan to bring back Thaksin now could endanger the government.

 "I just met him and he did not show any rush to return. He understands the political situation," Mr Jatuporn said.

 Korkaew Pikulthong, another leading red shirt, also dismissed Mr Kwanchai's remarks.

 As soon as Thaksin stepped on to Thai soil, police could take him into detention.

 Thaksin, who was convicted of abuse of authority in relation to a land deal, would not be able to just walk free.

 Thaksin was sentenced in absentia to two years in jail in 2008 for  abuse of his authority when he was prime minister for helping his  then-wife, Potjaman na Pombejra, win a bid for a plot of prime land on  Ratchadaphisek Road.

 "Mr Kwanchai should be patient. The reconciliation process is under  way. Once it is complete, Col Pol Thaksin will come back with pride," Mr  Korkaew said.

 Foreign Minister Surapong Tovichakchaikul agreed with Mr Korkaew,  saying Thaksin must come back with dignity and through the appropriate  channels.

 Defence Minister ACM Sukumpol Suwanatat said Thaksin supporters  should ignore what Mr Kwanchai had said. "'Don't let what one person has  said spoil the broth," he said.

 Mr Kwanchai said yesterday he was not speaking on behalf of any red shirt co-leaders in Bangkok.

 He said many red shirt core members are now part of the government  and live in luxury while the movement's supporters live in poverty. Some  had gone broke after five years of participating in red-shirt  campaigns, he said.

 Mr Kwanchai said he wanted to help Thaksin come home because he wanted to seek justice for him.


-----
Govt must block plans for red-shirt 'welcome' for Thaksin - The Nation

*Govt must block plans for red-shirt 'welcome' for Thaksin*

         THE NATION March 21, 2012  1:00 am 
 

*The ruling Pheu Thai Party should try to  block a red-shirt leader from mobilising the crowds in the Northeast to  act as a shield for the homecoming of fugitive former prime minister  Thaksin Shinawatra, a Democrat MP said yesterday.*

"Thai society would be in disarray should mob rule prevail over the  rule of law," Thepthai Senpong said in reference to Kwanchai Praipana's  pledge to ensure a safe passage for Thaksin by mobilising millions of  red shirts.

He said Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra and Deputy Prime Minister Yongyuth Wichaidit were both obliged to uphold the law.

Kwanchai urged Thaksin to return through the Thai-Lao Friendship Bridge  in Nong Khai following the Songkran celebrations in Vientiane in April.  He said he would mobilise some 10 million Isaan people to welcome and  protect Thaksin.

Democrat Party spokesman Chavanond Intarakomalyasut said he was  sceptical that Kwanchai would actually carry out such a mobilisation.

Chavanond said should Thaksin decide to return home, he would first  encounter the immigration police, who could detain and treat him as a  fugitive.

"Thaksin should finally decide to comply with the judicial process so that the political conflict can end," he said.

Deputy Agriculture Minister Natthawut Saikua said Thaksin could decide for himself about the timing for his homecoming.

Although supporters and well-wishers, including Kwanchai, might be  calling for Thaksin's return, this is nothing new and the final decision  will rest with Thaksin, he said.

He said in his personal view, Thaksin should be allowed to return - but  the timing would hinge on prevailing circumstances such as the  political situation.

He said he detected no activity to mobilise the crowds as claimed by Kwanchai.

Foreign Minister Surapong Towichukchaikul said Thaksin's homecoming  should take place in a dignified manner and not through a border  checkpoint, as suggested by Kwanchai.

Surapong said he was unaware of Thaksin's plans because he had not had a meeting or a talk with him for a while.

----------


## sabang

> Thai society would be in disarray should mob rule prevail over the rule of law


Thai society *is* in disarray because people like you encouraged mob rule over the rule of law, khun Thepthai.

As Robert Amsterdam said-

_However, much like Mr. Thepthai’s own prime ministerial boss, who publicly clashed with him after he made several misguided and completely false allegations regarding Red Shirt “terrorist” training camps, we believe Mr Thepthai is struggling to act in an appropriate and reasonable fashion._
Behind the Histrionics of Thepthai Senpong | Robert Amsterdam Thailand

Thepthai Senpong regularly comes up in despatches, as one of the more bombastic yellow apologists. He was sacked (or did he resign?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): ) as an official Democrat party spokesman some time after the above post from Amsterdam.

----------


## Butterfly

> Thai society is in disarray because people like you encouraged mob rule over the rule of law


 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 




> As Robert Amsterdam said


time to take your meds, sab, it's 9am  :Smile:

----------


## Scaramanga

*Pravit on the Thai media’s and SD obsession with Thaksin*

*First, learn how the other side thinks*

_National reconciliation is an admirable goal but it would be a misplaced goal if Thai society has yet to learn how to co-exist and compete with those who think differently about politics in a peaceful, constructive and democratic manner.

The political rift continuing over the past six years or so may be a long and painful road for Thais who are allergic to open conflicts, but there are no shortcuts and society simply cannot afford not to learn how to co-exist and compete peacefully, politically speaking.

Learning more about those who disagree with you and how they think is high on the list of peaceful co-existence. Unfortunately, both sides of the political divide are more comfortable with and keen about denouncing and demonising their opponents.

Those who think that getting rid of the ousted and fugitive former premier Thaksin Shinawatra would end Thailand's marathon political feud would do well to think again. It should become abundantly clear to them that even if Thaksin is no longer active, politically speaking, the millions who support him will not simply disappear.

Most of the Bangkok-based mainstream mass media's over-obsession with Thaksin strangely did not translate into curiosity to learn more about his red-shirt supporters, especially those from the rural poor. It is quite ironic and even perverted to think that foreign media like the International Herald Tribune seem to be spending more time and effort in trying to understand the rural poor who supported Thaksin than most of the mainstream Thai media.

As long as the Thai elite, the educated middle class and mainstream media do not regard the majority of Thais who are poor with respect and treat them more equally and try to understand their plight and aspirations, the less well-to-do reds who have become politically active over the past six years will almost certainly continue to push for some form of political restructuring and greater socio-political and economic equity.

The reds get very upset when Thaksin is scrutinised, unconstitutionally ousted and convicted while some public figures of great social and political influence cannot even be criticised or made accountable.

Many red shirts have long abandoned the mainstream media as they have lost trust in their claimed impartiality and have for years now tuned in to their own television and radio stations.

A taxi driver this writer rode with on Monday tuned in to red community radio FM92.25, which relayed news from Asia Update, one of the two red TV stations. The news presented was very different from that of the mainstream media. I heard Asia Update report in some detail about news that the mainstream media would rather pretend is not newsworthy.

Somsak Jiamteerasakul, a Thammasat University historian and leading advocate for reform of the monarchy, was heard speaking at a forum about the need to do more than just amend the controversial lese majeste law and to launch wide-ranging reforms of the royal institution.

The cabby from Nong Khai who has lived in Nonthaburi for 20 years then told me, "I won't allow Thailand be dragged back into becoming like Burma".

Understanding should be a two-way street, however, and I can't help but feel that the supporters of Thaksin are not really keen on understanding the insecurity and paranoia of their opponents. The reds are also still not open to acknowledging the flaws, mistakes and abuses of power committed by Thaksin. Liberal red shirts such as Red Sunday group leader Sombat Boon-ngam-anong should ensure that ordinary reds value criticism and scrutiny as not just a tool to fight their opponents but also as an indispensable part of a democratic system that should be applied equally to everyone, including their leaders._

----------


## longway

> Quote:
> 
> Thats  rich coming from a nitwit who's 'politica'l 'insight' leads him to the  conclusion that there's nothing wrong with vote buying coz everyone does  it.





> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> Why do I need a cite?
> 
> 
> Because I've never said what you said I said and instead of doing the usual yellow-dog/Nation thing of just saying whatever sounds good at the time I think you should provide a citation to back up your crap.


Lol - so you are actually changed your mind now, its actually in this thread, glad to see you have leant something.


Post 2605




> Quote:
>                          Originally Posted by *Rocksteady* 
> _This  is one of the main tenets of free and fair elections. You feel that  buying votes instead of votes being cast as an indication of a person's  political opinions is not a problem!_
> 
> 
> _To which mao say dumb replies:_
> Studies  have been done that show pretty clearly that "vote-buying", whatever  you imagine that to actually mean as a form of behavior, does not  necessarily stop people from voting their opinions. That's one of the  reasons *I don't see it as a major problem at this time.*
> 
> It's also fairly clear that many of the forms that corruption takes in  Thailand are not seen by a majority of Thais to be such terrible things.  
> ...


 :Smile:

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> Thai society would be in disarray should mob rule prevail over the rule of law
> 
> 
> Thai society *is* in disarray because people like you encouraged mob rule over the rule of law, khun Thepthai.
> 
> As Robert Amsterdam said-
> 
> ...


That is something I can agree to. While there are stranger vibes about...

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by sabang
> 
> Thai society is in disarray because people like you encouraged mob rule over the rule of law
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why not you take your meds mate :Smile:  There might be a pill for euro?hit.

----------


## mao say dung

> Thats  rich coming from a nitwit who's 'politica'l 'insight' leads him to the  conclusion that there's nothing wrong with vote buying coz everyone does  it.




Lol - so you are actually changed your mind now, its actually in this thread, glad to see you have leant something.







> Studies  have been done that show pretty clearly that "vote-buying", whatever  you imagine that to actually mean as a form of behavior, does not  necessarily stop people from voting their opinions. That's one of the  reasons *I don't see it as a major problem at this time.*
> 
> It's also fairly clear that many of the forms that corruption takes in  Thailand are not seen by a majority of Thais to be such terrible things.  
> 
> Anyone who can say with a straight face that the recent election does  not represent the political preference of the majority of Thais who  voted in it is simply deluded.


How you can equate what I said with what you said I said will have to remain one of those mysteries that the stupid always present to those not so blessed.

You have a good day, there.    :smiley laughing:

----------


## longway

^ All well in the world of denial I see. :Smile: 

Obnoxious and stupid in equal measures, what great 'insight' can we expect next. 

I think I better lay out for you more simply, as too many words seem to distract you.

This is what I said




> nitwit who's 'politica'l 'insight' leads him to the  conclusion that there's nothing wrong with vote buying


This is what you said




> *I don't see it as a major problem at this time.*


Of course here you don't even use the thin caveat that 'everyone does it so its ok' - you just dont think its a big problem. The stupidity is even more breathtaking, and I now have a better understanding of why you cant see the link.

----------


## mao say dung

No, longway, what I said was this, no matter how many times you cut it down to the silly kind of cut-and-dried oversimplification you make your stock and trade.




> Studies have been done that show pretty clearly that "vote-buying", whatever you imagine that to actually mean as a form of behavior, does not necessarily stop people from voting their opinions. That's one of the reasons I don't see it as a major problem at this time.  It's also fairly clear that many of the forms that corruption takes in Thailand are not seen by a majority of Thais to be such terrible things.  Anyone who can say with a straight face that the recent election does not represent the political preference of the majority of Thais who voted in it is simply deluded.


Maybe if you move your lips and murmur while you read it?

----------


## longway

^Nothing you have to say can be oversimplified.  :mid: 

As for the rest its your opinion and you are entietled to it. Its funny how you cannot admit to something thats there right in front of you, but thats stock and trade for anyone shares your views.

----------


## mao say dung

> Studies have been done that show pretty clearly that "vote-buying", whatever you imagine that to actually mean as a form of behavior, does not necessarily stop people from voting their opinions.


That is not my opinion.

When I point out that this business of people still voting their opinions, which means they vote for who they prefer regardless of the "vote buying", is one reason I don't see it as a major problem at this time, I'm expressing an opinion.




> Anyone who can say with a straight face that the recent election does not represent the political preference of the majority of Thais who voted in it is simply deluded.


When I said this I was calling you and your ilk stupid. Some opinions take on the appearance of fact as evidence piles up.

You keep on piling fella.  :Smile:

----------


## longway

^One of these days you will wake up to the poison that vote buying is to Thailand's political system.

Until then you can keep burbling on obnoxiously about LM and the rest.

In what way was I wrong? You make a great song and dance about me misrepresenting you, then  you come say:




> I don't see it as a major problem at this time, I'm expressing an opinion.


You do realise I recalled something you wrote 1000 posts ago, and still got the gist, its hardly a gross misrepresentation is it  :bananaman: , you should be complimented that someone even remembers. 

If you think it is a misrepresentation then you got the opportunity to repost your 'insight' yet again.

Can we stop now?

----------


## mao say dung

You said that I said that vote buying was OK because everyone did it.

I didn't say that.

I said that for a number of reasons I didn't see it as a major problem at this time, implying for all but the rabidly yellow that there are much bigger problems at the present time IMO and that it could be taken care of at some time in the future when more serious problems had been dealt with. One of those problems, as I see it, is for Thais in positions of power to consistently do the kind of thing that you and the boys do when you deliberately misrepresent what people stand for etc...

You can stop any time you like.

----------


## longway

^ Yes its oh so different to what I thought you said 1000 posts ago.




> vote buying was OK because everyone did it.


But what you actually said was

Vote buying is not a big problem, because ...umm... its not a big problem.

Thanks for clearing that up. The irony is that it is just as stupid an opinion, if not more so. The stupidity of the 'insight' lies its conclusion not in its rationalisation. capiche?

----------


## Notnow

I have a question.  I think a citizen casts a vote where no one can see him.  Is this not so, or does the payer of the vote bribe go into the space where the citizen votes to insure compliance?  I imagine one does not get paid to vote if one is isolated, so the ones who get paid are available to accept the bribe, so they are in some cases voting because they got paid.  There were a lot of witnesses to the Dems bribing, yet they lost the election.  Ironically, they may have purchased a greater turnout to vote against them.
To really 'buy' a vote, you have to see the ballot and pay those who voted your way.

----------


## longway

^  A variety methods are used,  perhaps take a pic using a mobile phone, I think mobiles have been banned in polling booths now, maybe there would be a presence of the local thugs at a polling booth just as a reminder, or they would ask for house reg documents - many think that records are not kept secret so they would be found out. People with influence get money to ensure votes go in a certain way.

Also the buying of id cards from known opposition supporters goes on which are kept over the election period, which prevents people voting for the opposition

All this money inevitably comes from corruption and crime, and is used to buy the police and many local officials and of course kill and indimidate anyone who gets in the way.

Those effects are just the tip of the iceberg - just have a look at the character of those who get involved in politics- pick a few MPs or local politcians at random - look at their family connections,  their business dealings, the people who they are involved with - once you understand who these people are, you begin to understand how deeply corrupted and venal the entire system is. I'm not saying this has anything in particular to do with Thaksin, its been like this for a long time and will probably stay like for a long time.

But dont worry mao say dumb says its not a major problem. :Smile:

----------


## LooseBowels

Indeed

There is no such thing as votebuying because the buyer doesn't know if he got what he paid for . :Smile: 

You can't argue with that

----------


## BobR

^ Hence the tablet computer scheme.  Makes good sense too, use public money to buy votes from the half monkey types instead of using their own money.

----------


## nidhogg

> ^ Hence the tablet computer scheme. Makes good sense too, use public money to buy votes from the half monkey types instead of using their own money.


Well, to be fair that is politics the world over.  All politics is "I will use YOUR money to give you...whatever".

In most countries voters don't really get that idea.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Thaksin vows 'stylish' return | Bangkok Post: news
*
*Thaksin vows 'stylish' return*
Published: 24/03/2012 at 10:23 PMOnline news: Local News
 Former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra vowed on Saturday that he would soon return to Thailand and would do so in style.

 Thaksin made the daring announcement when he phoned in to a meeting of red shirts from 20 provinces in the Northeast at 4.30pm. 

The meeting was held at the office of Teeyai Poonsrithanakoon, a Pheu Thai MP for Surin, in Surin’s Rattanaburi district. 

"I  want all of you to be strong and patient," Thaksin told his supporters.  "Do not engage in conflict with anyone. The government is working at  its utmost capacity including [seeking ways] to provide remedies to the  red-clad people [affected by the acts of the Abhisit Vejjajiva  administration] both temporarily and permanently.

"Soon I will  come back home and in the meantime if anyone has any problem they can  submit their complaints to MP Tee. I will take care and get them handled  as soon as possible."

The former premier, who himself is on the  run from a two-year jail sentence, also urged the red shirts to be  patient about the cases of their jailed colleagues.

"With regard  to the red-shirt prisoners, I want you to cool it as I am discussing  [the issue] with the judges and everything should be okay," he said. "If  the government doesn’t have money to bail out all the red shirts, I  will use my money to bail out all the red shirts. I will use my money to  bail them all.

Speculation about Thaksin's return has  intensified in recent weeks as the reconciliation process gains momentum  in Parliament and on other fronts. However, public and political  opinion remains sharply divided on whether a general amnesty for various  political actors should apply to the billionaire fugitive.

"If I  am to come home, I will not come in the way that Khun Kwanchai  suggested because that wouldn't be cool. [i] must come stylishly. I will  let you know later what kind of comeback should be called cool,"  Thaksin said.   

He was referring to the announcement early this  week by Udon Thani red-shirt leader Kwanchai Praipana that he and masses  of red shirts from the Northeast would escort Thaksin home within this  year via the Thai-Lao Friendship Bridge in Nong Khai province.

Most Thaksin supporters moved quickly to distance themselves from Mr Kwanchai's comments.

Thaksin  said he would be in Vientiane, Laos during the Songkran holiday on  April 12-13 and in Siem Reap, Cambodia on April 14-15.

He said anyone wanting to visit him should come in a large groups and he would fully welcome them.

----------


## Butterfly

the actual cash buying vote like we see in Thailand could be justified if it was done by the state instead of political parties, as an incentive for people to vote, so it's harmless, yet remains suspicious

a far greater danger though is the "vote buying" of political parties that are being "taken over" to concentrate political leverage. Political diversity is compromised and bring the risk of a monopoly of political ideas to serve a single leader. Not really the work of democracy.

----------


## mao say dung

> But what you actually said was  Vote buying is not a big problem, because ...umm... its not a big problem.


Actually, no... what I said was:




> Studies have been done that show pretty clearly that "vote-buying", whatever you imagine that to actually mean as a form of behavior, does not necessarily stop people from voting their opinions. That's one of the reasons I don't see it as a major problem at this time.  It's also fairly clear that many of the forms that corruption takes in Thailand are not seen by a majority of Thais to be such terrible things.  Anyone who can say with a straight face that the recent election does not represent the political preference of the majority of Thais who voted in it is simply deluded.


And that won't change no matter how many times you try to make  out that I said something as stupid and simplistic as you tend to...

----------


## robuzo

""If I am to come home, I will not come in the way that Khun Kwanchai suggested because that wouldn't be cool. [i] must come stylishly. I will let you know later what kind of comeback should be called cool," Thaksin said."

WTF is he on about? Does he intend to be immediately installed as "Infantile Egomaniac in Chief"?

----------


## sabang

Thaksin will indeed be coming 'home',and 'soon enough', and wow that will change nothing. No sinoThai Coup conspirator will be held accountable, or exiled. Or hung, or shot.

If at least the people's Right of Suffrage has been reinforced in a Constitutional Democracy, that will suffice for now. More challenges lie ahead.

----------


## Mr Lick

> I will let you know later what kind of comeback should be called cool,"


A refridgerated coffin perhaps?  :Smile:

----------


## Rocksteady

Here we go again!  I can't see this amounting to anything apart from rattling of his sabre.  

I wonder why he says people should come and visit him in big numbers?

----------


## sabang

> Here we go again!


No, the mechanism of Coup d'Etat has been rightly been slapped down into the dungeon where it belongs.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

Well it's gonna be interesting anyway.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> But what you actually said was  Vote buying is not a big problem, because ...umm... its not a big problem.
> 
> 
> Actually, no... what I said was:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When we started this little to do I based my remark to you on a recollection of a post you made 1000 posts ago, so perhaps you can forgive me for encapsulating what you said in one sentence. What you said struck me as moronically stupid then as it does now. As I said you are entitled to think that I over simplified your stance  to the extent that it misrepresents you and I am entitled to sit back and laugh at you. Lets put it in terms even you might begin to understand. 

This is a emoticon represents someone who thinks vote buying is ok because evryone does it.

 :Dance: 


and this one represents some who thinks vote buying is not a big problem or, as you like to put it:




> Studies have been done that show pretty clearly that "vote-buying",  whatever you imagine that to actually mean as a form of behavior, does  not necessarily stop people from voting their opinions. That's one of  the reasons I don't see it as a major problem at this time.  It's also  fairly clear that many of the forms that corruption takes in Thailand  are not seen by a majority of Thais to be such terrible things.  Anyone  who can say with a straight face that the recent election does not  represent the political preference of the majority of Thais who voted in  it is simply deluded.


 :Dance:

----------


## mao say dung

> perhaps you can forgive me for encapsulating what you said in one sentence


But you didn't "encapsulate" what I said. You altered it to fit your simplistic worldview and your rhetorical vacuity.

But do keep posting.    :deadhorsebig:

----------


## longway

^ No, I did not alter it, I recollected it. I addressed the difference betwen my recollection and your statement in post #3589.

I also quoted you in full when you asked a cite, but do keep on fantasizing.

You have the notion that vote-buying - whatever that may mean to you, is something that can be tidied up after Thailand reaches 'democracy', I think that vote buying and the behaviours asscoated with it are one of the core resons why thailand will not ever reach democracy. Its got nothing to do with 'simplifying' your view, it just that your view is fundamentally stupid no matter how matter how to try to 'nuance' it.

----------


## Butterfly

> Originally Posted by Rocksteady
> 
> Here we go again!
> 
> 
> No, the mechanism of Coup d'Etat has been rightly been slapped down into the dungeon where it belongs.


clueless as usual  :rofl:

----------


## hazz

It will be rather interesting, doubtless the deal between clique elites behind this government and the one with the army have agreed a no reprisals as part of the deal to bring taksin home. I just don't think that once he's back he will be able to resist temptation, and that will put us firmly into interesting times

----------


## mao say dung

> You have the notion that vote-buying - whatever that may mean to you, is something that can be tidied up after Thailand reaches 'democracy', I think that vote buying and the behaviours asscoated with it are one of the core resons why thailand will not ever reach democracy. Its got nothing to do with 'simplifying' your view, it just that your view is fundamentally stupid no matter how matter how to try to 'nuance' it.


Fine. Then why not address what I actually said:




> Studies have been done that show pretty clearly that "vote-buying", whatever you imagine that to actually mean as a form of behavior, does not necessarily stop people from voting their opinions. That's one of the reasons I don't see it as a major problem at this time. It's also fairly clear that many of the forms that corruption takes in Thailand are not seen by a majority of Thais to be such terrible things. Anyone who can say with a straight face that the recent election does not represent the political preference of the majority of Thais who voted in it is simply deluded.


To do so, you will need to look at the studies. You will need to address the issue of people voting their opinions, which is all anyone does in any democratic state, regardless of vote buying. How Thais feel about vote buying is obviously not relevant to my point, but you might address that anyway. And finally you should address what was in fact the concluding point in what I said about the recent election.

I look forward to your response to what I actually said. Presumably you will try to say something a little less simplistic than "that's stupid".

But maybe not.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Thaksin's 'judge talk' claim denied | Bangkok Post: breakingnews
*
*Thaksin's 'judge talk' claim denied*
Published: 25/03/2012 at 09:11 PMOnline news:
 A Court of Justice spokesman on Sunday denied  claims by former premier Thaksin Shinawatra that he was talking with  judges about bail for the release of jailed red-shirt activists and  supporters.

 Mr Sitthisak Vanachakij said whether bail is granted is a decision  for judges to make on a case-by-case basis. The judges hearing a request  will consider circumstances, the seriousness of the offence and the  value of collateral to secure the person's release.

 He insisted Thaksin cannot coordinate moves or talk with any judge in  an attempt to seek bail approval for the jailed red shirts.

 "I haven’t listened to all of his statement but as far as I follow  the news from media Mr Thaksin may make such a claim to convince people  politically. But the truth is, there has never been coordination [from  Thaksin] because the court doesn’t talk to [those in] politics and  politicians never talk to the court, whether it be the prime minister or  anyone," Mr Sitthisak said.

 “A bail submission is specifically subjective to each case and each  person. Each case has its own panel of judges responsible for it. You  can’t talk to a lone judge and think that you can control [the bail  results in] other cases.”

 Mr Sitthisak declined to say whether Thaksin’s remarks violated the  law, adding only that the court did not want to engage in a legal  dispute with anyone.

 However, the judiciary will take action, whether a mild rebuke or  more serious measures - from providing clarification to taking legal  action - for any remarks intended to discredit judges. 

 Asked if Thaksin should clarify his claim, Mr Sitthisak said the  fugitive ex-premier must learn to untie the knots he created because he  really had no clue about Thaksin’s alleged “coordination” and with  whom  he has been talking.

 Thaksin told his supporters on Saturday he would personally pay for  detained red shirts to be bailed out, and said he was discussing the  issue with judges in a phone call to a meeting of about 300 northeastern  red shirt supporters in Surin.

 ''I would like red shirt detainees to be patient,'' Thaksin said. ''I  am talking with judges and everything should be settled. If the  government has no money to bail out red shirts, I will use my own money  to bail out everyone. I keep in close contact with red shirt leaders.''

 The billionaire fugitive, who fled Thailand in 2008 from a two-year  jail sentence, also said he would soon make an ''elegant'' return to  Thailand.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Reds plan across border Thaksin celebrations, says Jatuporn - The Nation
*
*Reds plan across border Thaksin celebrations, says Jatuporn*

         The Nation March 26, 2012  1:00 am 

*Thousands of red shirts will celebrate  Songkran with former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra in Laos and  Cambodia, Pheu Thai MP Jatuporn Promphan said yesterday.*

"Thaksin is not coming back to Thailand at this time but will stay  close in order to allay the feelings of those who miss him," he said.

Jatuporn said Thaksin will be in Vientiane on April 12-to-13 to meet his red supporters from Udon Thani and Nong Khai.

Thaksin's next stop is Siem Reap on April 14-to-15, he said, revealing  he will lead the red shirts to join Thaksin in a grand celebration.

Cambodia Prime Minister Hun Sen might take part in the event, he said.  At present, a Cambodian aide was looking for a suitable venue to welcome  tens of thousands of red shirts, he added.

Commenting on a recent Thaksin phone-in at Surin, he said he expected Thaksin to come home after receiving a just settlement.

The injustice of the 2006 power seizure was that the Asset Examination  Committee made an unprecedented move in targeting only Thaksin.

In regard to the controversial report on reconciliation measures by the  King Prajadhipok's Institute, Jatuporn said Democrat Party leader  Abhisit Vejjajiva had gone overboard in his critique of the report.

The report alone could not bring about or derail reconciliation, he  said. Fence mending would succeed if all sides agreed to work together,  or fail if they worked against one another, he said.

He said from his point of view, the Democrats seemed to always oppose  reconciliation because they feared turning out losers in the deal.

"The Democrats keep picking on Thaksin because they have no achievements to boast about," he said.

He went on to remind all sides not to get trapped in the past, saying  he was willing to forgive the 2006 coup in order to allow the country to  advance.

As coup leader General Sonthi Boonyaratglin was trying to rectify his  past mistakes by pushing for reconciliation. Society should give him a  chance.

Jatuporn said he disagreed that Chart Thai Pattana MP Sanan Kachornprasart should try to corner Sonthi to reveal coup secrets.

"I don't think there will be additional information about the coup," he said.

He said the opposing sides already had their facts and should move  toward forgiveness instead of confrontation which can trigger a civil  war.

Over the past five years, the red shirts had waged an anti-coup  struggle based on facts presented at each point in time, he said,  conceding he wanted to let bygones be bygones rather than arguing about  who was the real mastermind of the coup.

In a related development, Abhisit issued his third open letter urging the KPI to withdraw its report.

The House committee on reconciliation was acting suspiciously - as if  it planned to misuse the KPI report to draw a lopsided conclusion,  Abhisit said.

He said reconciliation would not materialise from a majority vote in  Parliament, urging the government to take an active role in mending  fences.

Abhisit said he was worried about Thaksin's phone-in message which  claimed to be lobbying judges to grant bail for red shirts involved in  the political disturbances. Thaksin was speaking as if he could  intervene and sway the judiciary, he said.

Democrat Party spokesman Chavanond Intarakomalyasut said Thaksin had  never paid for the defence expenses incurred by the red shirts.

He said the red shirts should see through Thaksin - that he did not  really care about their grievances. Thaksin preyed on the red shirts to  secure his amnesty and safeguard his wealth, he said.

----------


## nostromo

Thaksin, Thaksin, Thaksin. Oh and Thaksin, Thaksin, Thaksin

Speak of one track mind

There was something I was about to say but it is pointless here. I prefer to eat.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Panlop unveils plan for Thaksin return | Bangkok Post: news
*
*Panlop unveils plan for Thaksin return*
Published: 27/03/2012 at 02:31 AMNewspaper section: News

 Gen Panlop Pinmanee, a security adviser to the  prime minister, says he plans to bring former premier Thaksin Shinawatra  back to Thailand this year.

 Thaksin will return on a private jet and arrive at Suvarnabhumi  airport where his supporters will be waiting to welcome him home, Gen  Panlop said.

 The issue of Thaksin returning to Thailand resurfaced over the  weekend after Thaksin told his supporters via a phone-in that he would  come back soon in style.

 He was responding to claims by Udon Thani red shirt leader Kwanchai  Praipana that he would return via the border in Laos after the Songkran  festival.

 Thaksin denied he intended returning to the country that way, but gave no further details of his plans.

 Gen Panlop said he proposed collecting 20,000 signatures to submit an  amnesty bill to parliament, as one way to bring Thaksin back if the  national reconciliation proposal by the King Prajadhipok's Institute  does not result in an amnesty for the exiled politician.

 He said the Pheu Thai Party promised an amnesty bill allowing Thaksin  to come back, during the election campaign in Buri Ram last year, and  the pledge must be fulfilled. Gen Panlop was confident the bill would  pass parliament.

 He and Thaksin had discussed the amnesty push, and he agreed with the  idea. Gen Panlop said he would meet Thaksin in Laos and Cambodia to  discuss the matter again.

 Thaksin plans trips to the neighbouring countries during the Songkran festival from April 12 to 15.

 Parnthep Pourpongpan, spokesman of the People's Alliance for  Democracy, said the group would resume street protests to oppose any  efforts to bring back Thaksin. If Pheu Thai's move to rewrite the  charter and propose an amnesty bill for Thaksin succeed in parliament,  unrest will ensue, he said.

 Meanwhile, Deputy Prime Minister Yutthasak Sasiprapa yesterday  dismissed as groundless Gen Panlop's claims that some military figures  are still plotting to stage another coup.

 Gen Yutthasak, who is in charge of security affairs, was referring to  a remark by Gen Panlop that some members of the military were still  thinking about forming another council for national security, similar to  the one that toppled the Thaksin government on Sept 19, 2006, to stage  another coup.

 He said he did not see any reason why this would happen.

 Gen Yutthasak said military commanders had given full cooperation and  support to the government and he could not see that changing.

 No problems had arisen with the mid-year military reshuffle, or about the armed forces' budget requests.

 The government and the military had agreed they would stay in close  consultation with each other on important matters such as the insurgency  in the South, Gen Yutthasak said.

 Asked whether the ongoing attempts to bring Thaksin back to the  country could lead to a coup, Gen Yutthasak said the military had not  discussed the matter.

 Pol Maj-Gen Thawat Boonfueng, the prime minister's acting  secretary-general, yesterday denied a report that core members of Class  10 of the Armed Forces Academies Preparatory School planned to bring  Thaksin home via Chiang Mai airport.

 Pol Maj-Gen Thawat, also a former cadet of Class 10 and classmate of  Thaksin, said he and other Class 10 members were stunned by Gen Panlop's  claim about another coup and their plan to bring Thaksin home via  Chiang Mai.

 "I can give an assurance that no former members of Class 10, whether  in the military or police force, have ever discussed this matter.

 "I think Thaksin knows well that in this situation, conflict still exists and reconciliation is still far away.

 "I think it's unlikely Thaksin will return to the country this year," Pol Maj-Gen Thawat said.

----------


## Bobcock

Rumours abound that Christiano Ronaldo will move to Chelsea and be the lure to also bring Jose Morinhio back with him.

----------


## sabang

^ Thats Thaksin's fault, undoubtably.  ::chitown::

----------


## Butterfly

indeed, if only he could shut up and retire and spend his last billions on overseas trips

he put himself into this situation, not the army

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Prasong: Chavalit slanting Order 66/23 | Bangkok Post: breakingnews
*
*Prasong: Chavalit distorting Order 66/23*

Published: 27/03/2012 at 06:05 PMOnline news:
 Former Pheu Thai Party chairman Chavalit  Yongchaiyudh has misrepresented the essence of Prime Minister's Office  Order 66/23 to slant it in favour of former prime minister Thaksin  Shinawatra, Squadron Leader Prasong Soonsiri said on Tuesday.

 Sqd Ldr Prasong, a former National Security Council (NSC) chief, said  he could say this because he took part in the process of issuing that  order in 1980.

 Order 66/23 was aimed at granting amnesty to innocent students and  people who were democracy-loving and not holding a communist ideology,  but the political situation pushed them to join the armed struggle of  the Communist Party of Thailand (CPT).

 
Sqd Ldr Prasong Soonsiri(Photo by Pawat Laopaisarntaksin)

 The government at the time considered they were not harmful to  national security and wanted them to return to the fold and join  national development, he said.

 Under Order 66/23, the amnesty did not cover criminals wanted for  setting fire on government offices, murdering government authorities, or  committing other crimes.  These criminals were still subject to legal  actions.

 Therefore, legal cases filed against Thaksin must continue, to  maintain the justice process of the country, Sqd Ldr Prasong said.

 Gen Chavalit, in saying that all cases filed against Thaksin must be invalidated, had distorted the essence of Order 66/23.

 The former NSC chief said the belief that reconciliation would be  achieved by helping a certain group of people off the hook was wrong and  would even escalate the existing conflict.

 Gen Chavalit on Monday said he had issued an 11-page letter voicing  support for the King Prajadhipok's Institute's proposals to grant  amnesty to Thaksin and nullify legal cases filed against him by the  Assets Scrutiny Committee

 He said he would today hold a press conference to give details of his  letter.  But his close aide came out to say that this had been  postponed because Gen Chavalit felt it was not yet the right time for  him to do so.

----------


## sabang

Nice jacket. Extremely old Squadron Leader. Where did they drag him up from?

----------


## StrontiumDog

Go easy on the courts | Bangkok Post: opinion

EDITORIAL  

*Go easy on the courts*
Published: 27/03/2012 at 02:04 AMNewspaper section: News
 Two recent and mostly unconnected controversies  have sent political ripples towards the justice system, and particularly  the courts. Both are provocative, and put pressure and troubles on  judges in unnecessary ways.

 Former primer minister Thaksin Shinawatra's apparently off-hand  remark that he was "talking to judges" about securing bail for detained  red shirts was an incredible claim, as it suggests he is exerting  influence over the courts system which in a properly functioning  democracy he should not possess.

 And the decision by prosecutors to hold over charges until next year  against 10 prominent personalities for a protest they staged at  parliament in 2007 manages to subtly drag the courts into an affair in  which they can hardly be held to blame.

 Thaksin made his remark last weekend in a morale-boosting talk to  about 300 red shirt supporters in the Northeast. Thaksin began by  discussing the lengthy periods of pre-trial detention which many red  shirts have had to serve since the 2010 clashes. They languish in jail,  the courts unwilling to grant them bail, but with no immediate prospect  of their charges being heard.

 Thaksin urged them to be patient, and then said: "I am talking with  judges and everything should be settled. If the government has no money  to bail out red shirts, I will use my own money to bail out everyone."

 Courts of Justice spokesman Sitthisak Wanachakit responded quickly,  insisting bail is handled on a case-by-case basis, and by the judge  appointed to a specific case. Bail hearings are in court, and public.

 Mr Sitthisak was drawing attention to the flaws in the Thaksin's  remarks, which taken at face value suggest he can exercise influence  over the courts which goes beyond that allowed ordinary individuals. The  courts, understandably, are keen to put to rest such ideas, as they  want to be seen as impartial.

 Prosecutors involved in the trial of Jon Ungphakorn and 10 other  prominent democrats for their protest at parliament have also behaved  poorly, and owe the courts an apology should the courts end up  shouldering the blame for their own lack of ability to prosecute the  case speedily.

 Prosecutors at the Office of the Attorney General last week decided  they still had no one capable of prosecuting the defendants. Instead of  dropping charges as they should, OAG lawyers asked the court to delay  the hearing until next year so a reshuffle could be completed at the  prosecutors' office.

 The prosecutors' decision risks passing the buck to the courts for  their own lack of ability to pursue the case in a timely fashion.

 Prosecutors are using the courts as a cover their own lack of action, and in that regard have something in common with Thaksin.

 The former prime minister might well be frustrated by the courts'  reluctance to release more red shirt protesters on bail _ but implying  that he has entered some cosy deal with the judges to secure their  release will hardly help his cause.

----------


## hazz

> Nice jacket. Extremely old Squadron Leader. Where did they drag him up from?


He does look rather like a TSB bank manager doesn't he

as for what he's saying... sounds like taksin fits the bill. he is only paying with left wing politics as a way to get power, he doesn't really believe in any of it at all; and he will continue to be a disruptive influence on the country until he gets what he believes he's entitled too

----------


## Bobcock

> ^ Thats Thaksin's fault, undoubtably.


Shhhhhhh....... It had been pointed out we should not really be talking about old square head in a thread about old square head....... I was just doing as I was told until you spoiled it....

----------


## Mid

*60,000 red shirts likely to meet Thaksin*
29/03/2012

 About 50,000 red shirts from the Northeast will  meet former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra in Vientiane during the  Songkran festival next month.

 Red shirt leader Nisit Sinthuphrai said about 50,000 Thaksin  supporters are expected to leave for Laos to meet him there as he pays a  brief visit to Laos and Cambodia during the festival.

 The red shirts would gather at the stadium of the Nong Khai  provincial administrative organisation on April 11 and leave for  Vientiane the next morning.

 Their travels will be broadcast live on the pro-Thaksin Asia Update television station.

 Mr Nisit said red shirt co-leader Jatuporn Prompan would make  arrangements for another group of red shirts to meet Thaksin in Siem  Reap of Cambodia.

 Theppanom Namlee, a red shirt leader in Surin province, said red  shirts from Yasothon, Buri Ram, Roi Et and Surin provinces would pass  the Chong Jom border pass in Kap Choeng district of Surin on April 13  and head for Thaksin's whereabouts.

 Mr Theppanom said some 10,000 red shirts are expected to join the  trip to meet Thaksin who will be in Siem Reap on April 14 and 15.

 Mr Theppanom said MPs of the Pheu Thai Party should travel along.

 Thaksin made a phone call to a meeting of his northeastern red shirt supporters last Saturday.

 Thaksin, who has been living in Dubai in self-imposed exile since  2008, invited his supporters to meet him either in Siem Reap or in  Vientiane during the Songkran festival. He will be in Vientiane on April  12 and 13.

 Kwanchai Praipana, the red shirt's leader in Udon Thani province,  said he would lead about 1,000 red shirt followers from Udon Thani to  meet Thaksin at Phetchampa Hotel in Vientiane on April 12.

 Red shirts plan to organise a ceremony to pray for Thaksin's well-being and smooth return to Thailand.

 Thaksin's supporters from Udon Thani will return to their home province on the same day.

 Mr Kwanchai said he would organise an event on April 7 at which red shirts would launch a drug campaign with police.

 He expects Thaksin to phone in to greet his supporters on that day.

bangkokpost.com

----------


## Mr Lick

> The 50,000 red shirts would gather at the stadium of the Nong Khai provincial administrative organisation on April 11 and leave for Vientiane the next morning.


All on the same bus presumably  :Smile:

----------


## sabang

I rather think that is an exaggeration actually.  :mid:

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> You have the notion that vote-buying - whatever that may mean to you, is something that can be tidied up after Thailand reaches 'democracy', I think that vote buying and the behaviours asscoated with it are one of the core resons why thailand will not ever reach democracy. Its got nothing to do with 'simplifying' your view, it just that your view is fundamentally stupid no matter how matter how to try to 'nuance' it.
> 
> 
> Fine. Then why not address what I actually said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You just dont get it do you? 

I have already made clear on a number of occasions why I think vote buying is a major problem. If vote-buying and the insidious practices required to keep it in place are no longer a factor then the choices for the voters will be radically different than they are now. Vote buying means criminals are in and competing for political office. To even get into political office you need you have to break the law, or be willing to associate with those who will do it for you.

----------


## Gerbil

> Originally Posted by Mid
> 
> The 50,000 red shirts would gather at the stadium of the Nong Khai provincial administrative organisation on April 11 and leave for Vientiane the next morning.
> 
> 
> All on the same bus presumably


Wouldn't like to be in the queue at the border checkpoint on that day  :bunny3:

----------


## noelbino

Fckuing lemmings.

----------


## hazz

> Mr Kwanchai said he would organise an event on April 7 at which red shirts would launch a drug campaign with police.


This gives me that day jar view feeling of history being about to repeat itself, one has to wonder just how many thai's they are going to kill and how many families are going to be ruined this time round

----------


## Butterfly

I am confused, I thought the reds had nothing to do with Thaksin, so why are they worshiping him like a semi-god ?

----------


## hazz

^Schrödinger's cat

They simultaneously worship him and have nothing to do with him; until someone asks a question at which point the wave function collapses into the most appropriate answer given the circumstances.

----------


## Butterfly

^ yes, DrB is an authority on that MO

----------


## mao say dung

> I am confused, I thought the reds had nothing to do with Thaksin, so why are they worshiping him like a semi-god ?


You should have visited the Rajprasong encampment back in the day... would have lifted your confusion, even if only momentarily.

----------


## sabang

Loads, most, red shirts are Thaksin fans. I daresay the results of the last two elections speak for themselves. Others however are luke warm, and for others it really isn't to do with Thaksin at all, apart from the fact he was illegally ousted contra to the popular mandate.

----------


## Butterfly

> Loads, most, red shirts are Thaksin fans.


fuck, are you sure ? this is fucking incredible,




> You should have visited the Rajprasong encampment back in the day... would have lifted your confusion, even if only momentarily.


I did, and it was like that: Lovely and peaceful Issaan peasants surrounded by petty criminals from Bangkok slums posing as security. It was a scene to be seen for sure.

I am surprised it ended so peacefully actually, I was expecting some major damage. Oh wait !!!

----------


## Mid

*Red shirts plan 'Thaksin tour'*
30/03/2012

 Red Tour 999 will take you on a three-day road  trip to Siem Reap, Cambodia, staying at a four-star hotel for 6,500 baht  each _ but there's a catch.

 

An ad on the Facebook page of a red shirt invites people to join an  April 13-15 tour to Cambodia where they can visit Angkor Wat and meet  ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra.

 "You should be a red shirt," said the tour organiser who goes by the name of Ton7777.

 "We have to be concerned about the safety of [former] prime minister Thaksin [Shinawatra]."

 During the Songkran holidays, April 13-15, the tour will take you to  cultural heritage sites such as Angkor Wat and Angkor Thom, but the  highlight will be on April 14, when tour participants will get a chance  to meet the ousted premier and perform a rod nam dam hua ceremony, in  which Songkran celebrants show respect to their elders by pouring holy  water over their hands.

 Ton7777 says he does not mean to bar non-red shirts from  participating in the tour, but he is concerned about two issues _ the  safety of Thaksin and also the fun factor of the tour itself.

 "If you are a yellow shirt, what fun will you have? How will you get  along with everyone? It will be uncomfortable for you and everyone  else," he said.

 So far, two callers interested in his tour are on his list of suspects.

 The first question he always asks before making a reservation is: "Are you a red shirt?"

 If the caller says yes, but is unable to name which red shirt group he belongs to, then Ton7777 knows something is fishy.

 "If it is someone who is open and doesn't hate Thaksin, it should be  fine," he said of interested vacationers, but he also cautioned that he  has not yet decided on how strict the policy will be.

 There are two purposes for the Red Tour, according to Ton7777.

 The first is for people who love and admire Thaksin to meet him in  person and offer him their respect at the auspicious Songkran ceremony. A  pilgrimage, if you will.

 The second is to gain knowledge in preparation for the Asean Economic Community in 2015.

 Ton7777 said the tour will educate them about the upcoming single  economic community, focusing on issues such as the labour movement,  vocational opportunities and the importance of learning English.

 Ton7777 revealed he is an engineer with a multinational company. He has a master's degree and is working on his doctorate.

 "I wasn't involved in politics before," he said. Like many others, he decided to don a red shirt after the 2006 coup.

 On Saturday, during a phone-in to a red shirt rally in Surin, Thaksin  invited supporters to meet him in Vientiane on April 12 and 13 and in  Siem Reap on April 14 and 15.

 Thus far, the red shirt "We Love Udon" and "We Love Isan" groups are  also organising trips to meet the former prime minister. It is estimated  that up to 10,000 supporters from Udon Thani alone will travel to the  two neighbouring countries this Songkran holiday.

bangkokpost.com

----------


## StrontiumDog

Thai-ASEAN News Network - Poll: Most Oppose Amnesty for Thaksin

Poll: Most Oppose Amnesty for Thaksin 

UPDATE : 5 April 2012 

*According to a recent opinion poll  conducted by the National Institute of Development Administration, 64  percent of those polled oppose amnesty for ousted Prime Minister Thaksin  Shinawatra, but instead want him to return to Thailand to fight his  cases. 
*
The National Institute of Development Administration has announced the  results of its recent opinion poll conducted on the issue of national  reconciliation and political situation. 

According to the results, 48.6 percent of the respondents believe that  the country will fall back into another political confrontation if  former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra is granted amnesty. 

At the same time, only 20.09 percent see that the amnesty will improve  the situation while 18.12 percent do not think that it would bring any  change. 

When asked what Thaksin should do, 64 percent urge the ex-premier to  return to Thailand to fight his charges while 16.3 percent do not think  that he should return at all. 

Only 8.39 percent of the respondents see that he should come back once he is granted amnesty. 

About plans for national reconciliation, 45.41 percent are unsure if the  King Prajadhipok's Institute's report should be incorporated into the  plans while 28.64 percent see that it should be included. 

Meanwhile, 25.95 percent reject the report, saying the reconciliation effort depends solely on the government. 

On their concerns about the current political climate, 61.08 percent are  worried about possible protests from various groups and 25.34 percent  do not want another coup. 

The poll was conducted among 1,246 people randomly selected from all parts of the country.

----------


## Gerbil

> 25.34 percent do not want another coup.


Does that mean 74.66% want one?  :Smile: 





> When asked what Thaksin should do, 64 percent urge the ex-premier to return to Thailand to fight his charges while 16.3 percent do not think that he should return at all.


Interesting.....

----------


## sabang

It's a bent Poll, and everyone knows that- including those that agree with it.
Push polling has been taken to an utterly laughable nadir in this country.
If they are so confident of the results of this Poll, then fine- absolutely no problem for T to return and run for Prime Minister again. no chance.
You said so yourselves, I mean Polls can not possibly lie, can they?  ::chitown::

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> Order 66/23 was aimed at granting amnesty to innocent students and people who were democracy-loving and not holding a communist ideology.
> 
>  
> Sqd Ldr Prasong Soonsiri(Photo by Pawat Laopaisarntaksin)


This guy and his pals (inc Samak) set loose the dogs who raped and killed anyone who didn't agree that the sakdina ("Soon" "siri") and their complaint chink bureaucrats should rule Thailand for themselves and fuck the poor farmers. Wanna bet his grandkids are right now working their way up through the ranks of thai hi-so society bureaucracy (or at UCLA, Harvard etc)? And we all know where the money came from to study abroad don't we?

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Abhisit in '2-for-1' offer - The Nation
*
*Abhisit in '2-for-1' offer*

         The Nation April 7, 2012  1:00 am 
 
*
If Thaksin is not given amnesty, ex-PM and deputy would accept same fate*

Opposition leader Abhisit Vejjajiva has offered to disqualify himself  and his former deputy prime minister Suthep Thaugsuban from any future  amnesty if the same measure applies to ex-PM Thaksin Shinawatra, while  other people involved in the political conflict are set free.

He clearly was trying to emphasise that the government's push for  reconciliation was ultimately aimed at whitewashing Thaksin's  wrongdoings.

Abhisit was responding to a challenge from Pheu Thai MP and red-shirt  leader Jatuporn Prompan that two representatives from each side -  Abhisit and Suthep from the Democrat Party, and Jatuporn and Pheu Thai  MP and red-shirt leader Natthawut Saikua - should be exempted from any  amnesty in the future.

"Let's do it this way. I offer two in exchange for one. Do not grant  amnesty to me and Suthep, as well as Thaksin. I like this better,"  Abhisit said during the House of Representatives debate on  reconciliation proposals on Thursday night.

The lower house debated whether to accept the proposals from the ad hoc  House committee on national reconciliation and to forward them to the  Cabinet for further action.

Abhisit, who served as prime minister in the previous government, and  his then-deputy Suthep have been accused by the red shirts of "ordering  the massacre of protesters" in the political unrest and riots in early  2010.

More than 90 people were killed during more than two months of street  protests and occupations in Bangkok by the pro-Thaksin red shirts  between March and May 2010. Among those killed were soldiers, police,  protesters, passers-by, local residents and foreign journalists.

During the debate, Abhisit said rule of law should be upheld and that  by offering general amnesty to everyone - as proposed by the House panel  and backed by the government MPs - more conflict would be created.

"Don't try to involve Parliament to solve the problem of people who do  not sincerely want to reconcile," Abhisit said. "Don't create a  condition for new conflict. That's not a way to reconciliation. If there  is sincerity for reconciliation, we the opposition will fully support  the move."

Earlier in the debate, Jatuporn remarked that Abhisit once said he  would not reconcile with "the terrorists" - people who wreaked havoc in  Bangkok in 2010. Jatuporn, led the red-shirt protest, told the House  meeting that his side also would not reconcile with "the murderers",  referring to Abhisit and Suthep.

Abhisit responded by cautioning that "the terrorists" and "the  murderers" would end up being in the same group of people. He was  referring to reports that heavily armed men mingled among the red-shirt  protesters.

Pheu Thai Party leader Yongyuth Wichaidit yesterday described Abhisit's  challenge as "just rhetoric that cannot be put into action". "In law,  general amnesty must be applied to everyone and nobody should be  excluded," said Yongyuth, who is also deputy prime minister and interior  minister.

Figures close to Thaksin could not be reached yesterday for comments about the matter. 

After two days of debate in the lower house, 307 MPs early yesterday  voted to support the reconciliation proposals and to forward them to the  Cabinet for further action. There were two abstentions. The opposition  Democrat MPs refused to vote in protest at what they described as a rush  to have the measures passed as soon as possible.

Chief opposition whip Jurin Laksanavisit said the government missed a  chance to avoid negative consequences of the rush by ignoring a  suggestion from King Prajadhipok's Institute that broader debate of  reconciliation was needed to prevent a new round of conflict.

----------


## StrontiumDog

It is certainly telling that after 9 months plus in power, what other society changing legislation has Pheu Thai enacted? 

All their efforts seem to surround amnesty, charter change or reconciliation. So much time spent on what? A massive fraud, which is ultimately going to solve nothing. The divisions and inequality in society will still be there. 

What are they doing to solve the problems with.... poverty, human rights, women's rights, inequality, corruption, rape laws, child abuse laws, human trafficking, gun crime, domestic violence, education, the environment, malpractice and compensation, the southern insurgency, consumer rights and protection, censorship, enforcement of laws and on and on and on and on....Oh, things are discussed, things are rumoured/suggested but where is the parliamentary time being devoted to things that will actually bring long-term positive changes for this country? 

So much parliamentary time and so many people have been involved in this so called 'reconciliation' process and the amnesty associated with it. A non-stop frenzy of activity. It is offensive that they are doing so. While the country grinds on and the lot of the normal people of Thailand doesn't improve. 

And for what....

All for one man, who doesn't have the integrity to face the accusations made against him. 

As time goes by and nothing real comes from Pheu Thai, the con just seems to be more and more obvious. So obvious in fact, that even some of the rather ignorant here must be questioning their blind faith....well, I hope so.

----------


## sabang

> All their efforts seem to surround amnesty, charter change or reconciliation.


I think you are forgetting the minimum wage rise. And the tablet PC's.
Charter change however is a necessity- plain fact is, Thailand is not currently a legally constituted nation because the legal Constitution was thrown out on the back of an illegal military Coup.
The fact that a certain segment of society and their media mouthpieces will say it is only about Thaksin is a given. The fact that the slanted media has therefore become irrelevant to a majority of Thai is a direct result of this.
Personally, I would like to see PT doing more to establish an impartial, strong and independent Judiciary, and removing the Military from the political process. But we all know the risks involved in doing this.
I don't really have a problem with this 'same old, same old' criticism aimed at PT, as long as it is acknowledged that in one, critical respect they are not the same- because they were voted in by the People, with a crushing majority to boot.

----------


## mao say dung

> What are they doing to solve the problems with.... poverty, human rights, women's rights, inequality, corruption, rape laws, child abuse laws, human trafficking, gun crime, domestic violence, education, the environment, malpractice and compensation, the southern insurgency, consumer rights and protection, censorship, enforcement of laws and on and on and on and on....Oh, things are discussed, things are rumoured/suggested but where is the parliamentary time being devoted to things that will actually bring long-term positive changes for this country?  So much parliamentary time and so many people have been involved in this so called 'reconciliation' process and the amnesty associated with it. A non-stop frenzy of activity. It is offensive that they are doing so. While the country grinds on and the lot of the normal people of Thailand doesn't improve.  And for what....  All for one man, who doesn't have the integrity to face the accusations made against him.


And what didn't the previous government do?

And who didn't they do it for?

----------


## sabang

What *did* the previous government do?
Apart from giving free rein to corruption, absolutely nothing that I am aware of.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

To SD - Minimum wage for starters. When Dems and junta were in power their pitch to international investors was come to Thailand because we have a cheap labor force (of course only on behalf of Central and other established companies). What kind of country prides itself on cheap labor? Answer - one that doesn't give a shit about them.

----------


## BKKBoet

^ um, most counties that want foreign investment and to remain competitive given the competition from surrounding countries. You just have to look at the US and Europe to see where expensive labour gets the economy and the ultimate effect it has on the people.

Government intervention in inflating wages is not the right solution, they should rather invest in upgrading the education and qualifications of people so then they can naturally earn a higher wage and add value to the economy without being a burden on the state.

However, handing out cash to buy popularity now, and passing on the bill to the next generation, is how this government operates.


As for the Democrats being responsible for allowing the Evil Capitalists to come to Thailand and exploit the poor labour, well I am sorry but this started long before they were in power.

----------


## nostromo

> ^ um, most counties that want foreign investment and to remain competitive given the competition from surrounding countries. You just have to look at the US and Europe to see where expensive labour gets the economy and the ultimate effect it has on the people.
> 
> Government intervention in inflating wages is not the right solution, they should rather invest in upgrading the education and qualifications of people so then they can naturally earn a higher wage and add value to the economy without being a burden on the state.
> 
> However, handing out cash to buy popularity now, and passing on the bill to the next generation, is how this government operates.
> 
> 
> As for the Democrats being responsible for allowing the Evil Capitalists to come to Thailand and exploit the poor labour, well I am sorry but this started long before they were in power.


Agree with expensive labour in Europe (which many call downfall of Europe, for trade unions forcing companies out of business and people out of work and people not wanting to work more, for they get better social security compared to hard work) - but nothing to do with situation here, Thailand or SE Asia. To simplify, minimum pay is up, and corporate tax rate is down. This means successful businesses will win. Losing businesses have no part in functioning market economy. Except subsidized, paid by "someone else", euro (EU) style crap I wish never enters the Kingdom, this good and beautiful country, and I am quite confident it will never do. Here people can still work hard and be rewarded accordingly.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

People forget that the right to organize and bargain collectively is what built the north american and european middle classes. you can easily trace this rise and then fall (the fall with reagan and thatcher's attack on trade unions). The unions built the prosperity (by spreading it around) and with it nations rose. Now they're all in decline - with weakened unions and little and no social security - again track it with the rise in conservatism. You can say what you like about social programs out of control in Greece or france or wherever, but it was spreading around the largesse that built the "american dream" -not some 'entrepreunurial' quaker with a horse and buggy selling milk on the side of the road.

----------


## mao say dung

^Spot on. It boggles the mind that that is not absolutely crystal clear to anyone who bothers to think about it.

Rising labor costs force innovation as well as expanding markets. The whole post-Ron-and-Maggie "free market" boondoggle is just that.

----------


## MrG

Let's not forget reducing taxes for the wealthy while starting two wars.
Anyone who can't see that the class struggle was started years ago by Reagan & Thatcher has blinders  on.

----------


## nostromo

> People forget that the right to organize and bargain collectively is what built the north american and european middle classes. you can easily trace this rise and then fall (the fall with reagan and thatcher's attack on trade unions). The unions built the prosperity (by spreading it around) and with it nations rose. Now they're all in decline - with weakened unions and little and no social security - again track it with the rise in conservatism. You can say what you like about social programs out of control in Greece or france or wherever, but it was spreading around the largesse that built the "american dream" -not some 'entrepreunurial' quaker with a horse and buggy selling milk on the side of the road.


Unions built the prosperity? I respect your intelligence but also know you are politically something I am not. (however I dont think differences are that many-off topic) I think unions are working to destroy the prosperity - there are good people there, but in the end any union is a dictatorship - take a look at the leaders. Thatcher ended that in the UK in early 1980s. Resulting (not only because of killing the unions, of course, but it was a part of it) in great boom in UK economy (fastest growing economy in Europe for all of 80s). Reagan worked over it and ended with the same, after that US was respected by the Americans, after a long while. How many dollar can you price that? - if you wanted to, of course. 

There are so many parameters here. Philip K Dick said, "".

----------


## MrG

> I think unions are working to destroy the prosperity - there are good people there, but in the end any union is a dictatorship - take a look at the leaders.


Unions are the negotiating arm of organized labor. Please provide an example of how unions are dictatorships!

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> I think unions are working to destroy the prosperity - there are good people there, but in the end any union is a dictatorship - take a look at the leaders.
> 
> 
> Unions are the negotiating arm of organized labor. Please provide an example of how unions are dictatorships!


Union leaders are unelected. In any way resembling democracy. That is dictatorship. Then the Union controls your mind and gets part of your money? Cool eh. Bigger the union, less unelected and more distanced from the people they are supposed to represent. Union leaders are not for union members.
Reference US history last 50 years.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> What are they doing to solve the problems with.... poverty, human rights, women's rights, inequality, corruption, rape laws, child abuse laws, human trafficking, gun crime, domestic violence, education, the environment, malpractice and compensation, the southern insurgency, consumer rights and protection, censorship, enforcement of laws and on and on and on and on....Oh, things are discussed, things are rumoured/suggested but where is the parliamentary time being devoted to things that will actually bring long-term positive changes for this country?  So much parliamentary time and so many people have been involved in this so called 'reconciliation' process and the amnesty associated with it. A non-stop frenzy of activity. It is offensive that they are doing so. While the country grinds on and the lot of the normal people of Thailand doesn't improve.  And for what....  All for one man, who doesn't have the integrity to face the accusations made against him.
> 
> 
> And what didn't the previous government do?
> 
> And who didn't they do it for?


Ah yes, another failed argument. Lets compare this government with the previous one, as if that somehow justifies this one, or perhaps we should all blindly defend and/or applaud the current one, because, you know, it isn't the previous one....errr, what?....Ummm, you get an F. 

The previous government was terrible. And your point is?

I am dealing with the current one, you know, the one supposedly running the country at the moment. Is it really so difficult for you to do the same? 

Now, how about you do something completely original and out of character and address the points being made....go on, I just know you can do it.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> All their efforts seem to surround amnesty, charter change or reconciliation.
> 
> 
> I think you are forgetting the minimum wage rise. And the tablet PC's.
> Charter change however is a necessity- plain fact is, Thailand is not currently a legally constituted nation because the legal Constitution was thrown out on the back of an illegal military Coup.
> The fact that a certain segment of society and their media mouthpieces will say it is only about Thaksin is a given. The fact that the slanted media has therefore become irrelevant to a majority of Thai is a direct result of this.
> Personally, I would like to see PT doing more to establish an impartial, strong and independent Judiciary, and removing the Military from the political process. But we all know the risks involved in doing this.
> I don't really have a problem with this 'same old, same old' criticism aimed at PT, as long as it is acknowledged that in one, critical respect they are not the same- because they were voted in by the People, with a crushing majority to boot.


Ah the great defender comes along to do what only he can do....

The minimum wage rise is being consumed by rapidly rising inflation. Guess what, producers put their prices up preemptively. I know, imagine, businesses being so mean. What the market will bear eh? 

The minimum wage is a joke. It should be much higher....and also country wide.....the cost of living had skyrocketed, especially in Bangkok!

You should read this, it is from a Japanese source. 

Thai wage hike hitting firms / Large increase has manufacturers considering relocation : Business : DAILY YOMIURI ONLINE (The Daily Yomiuri)

*Thai wage hike hitting firms / Large increase has manufacturers considering relocation*



Oh, and did you really say the tablet PC, the ultimate gimmick to buy the voter, was a good policy? Really Sabang....are you so easily duped mate?

----------


## mao say dung

> I am dealing with the current one, you know, the one supposedly running the country at the moment. Is it really so difficult for you to do the same?


Unlike you, I tend to deal with things in a context, in this case the historical records of Thai governments...

Accusing the present travesty of being such because of Thaksin ignores the simple fact that your ridiculous list of things this government hasn't addressed is like saying that they haven't made rain or magically produced fish in the rivers and rice in the fields because they don't have sufficient barami.

Of course, as is always the case with defenders of the status quo here, that is precisely where your "critique" is headed.

Gimme a break.

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by mao say dung
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> ...


We are not in classroom, you can not hand down F's. Unless you are that much distanced from reality. 

You said "previous government was terrible" but while it was in power I never heard you say that - quite opposite, you were a supporter as I saw it through your million posts or so - and remain so posting yellow propaganda of TAN, Nation and the Federation of Yellow Street Dogs etc.

Now, you give me an F for spelling  W A N N A B E   T U R N C O A T

----------


## Notnow

> ^ um, most counties that want foreign investment and to remain competitive given the competition from surrounding countries. You just have to look at the US and Europe to see where expensive labour gets the economy and the ultimate effect it has on the people.
> 
> Government intervention in inflating wages is not the right solution, they should rather invest in upgrading the education and qualifications of people so then they can naturally earn a higher wage and add value to the economy without being a burden on the state.
> 
> However, handing out cash to buy popularity now, and passing on the bill to the next generation, is how this government operates.
> 
> 
> As for the Democrats being responsible for allowing the Evil Capitalists to come to Thailand and exploit the poor labour, well I am sorry but this started long before they were in power.


Germany probably has the strongest labor union in the world, pay and benefits too.  Yet they have produced excellent products that the world is willing to pay for, and it is working well for them.  As a seperate nation, they would be doing well, but have to bail out the sick Euro countries.  It was sorta like that in the U.S. in the past too.  The demands of stockholders for yearly payments gutted the R and D bugets, then to mollify the rabid stockholders they began cutting back on quality too.  After that there was nothing left to cut but the proud middle class workers pay to continue feeding the tiger.  If you refuse to alkocate resources for R and D, the product line will keep putting a new face on the same old dog.  The world became aware of the declines in quality, but Americans were slow to catch on and demand change.  The commiment to a yearly payoff uses money that once kept up with change.  The are some signs of improvent, but the train may have left the station.

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by BKKBoet
> 
> 
> ^ um, most counties that want foreign investment and to remain competitive given the competition from surrounding countries. You just have to look at the US and Europe to see where expensive labour gets the economy and the ultimate effect it has on the people.
> 
> Government intervention in inflating wages is not the right solution, they should rather invest in upgrading the education and qualifications of people so then they can naturally earn a higher wage and add value to the economy without being a burden on the state.
> 
> However, handing out cash to buy popularity now, and passing on the bill to the next generation, is how this government operates.
> 
> ...


Germany is a special case with SME's producing so much good product. Locally negotiated contracts with workforce and labour unions. People pulling it together. To avoid going down. And succeeding. And everyone who is worthy has a job. I for one believe in German workmanship and quality products.

But all this is being undone by the EU commission. 

After they kill (would like to kill) the UK, they go for Germany. Bundesbank is clearly in opposition to this European Dream and they know a bit about money.

German taxpayers ending up a now 600 billion e, or more, on target2 to fund europe - raise VAT to 2048% for thousand years, same for the Netherlands and Finland. No other country is paying in europe. Sick. Euro is a failure for 3 good rich and productive countries, but i guess a jackpot for all the others. Democracy is it, suck down 3 out of 17 in eurozone. 

Note. Luxembourg as in target2 does not actually count being only a tax haven and can skip the program any time. Wish the other 3 countries could. 

After you kill Germany, the Netherlands and Finland, there is just a caveman euro sapiens, staring to the sky, seeing US, UK, China and Japan satellites, not understanding what they are about.

----------


## Mid

*10,000 red shirts rally to Thaksin*
8/04/2012

 About 10,000 red shirts from the lower Northeast  have confirmed they will join the trip to meet former prime minister  Thaksin Shinawatra in Siem Reap in Cambodia during the Songkran holiday,  Theppanom Namlee, a red shirt leader in Surin province, said.

 Mr Theppanom claimed on Sunday about 10,000 Thaksin supporters from  Yasothon, Buri Ram, Roi Et and Surin provinces have already registered  with the trip organisers to meet the ousted premier and perform a _rod nam dam hua_ ceremony, in which Songkran celebrants show respect to their elders by pouring holy water over their hands, on April 14. 

 Thaksin has invited his followers to meet him when he spends his  Songkran holidays in Laos between April 11 and 13 and in Cambodia  between April 14 and 15.

 Mr Theppanom said the trip participants will gather at the Chong Jom  border pass in Kap Choeng district of Surin at 6am on that day and head  to the meeting with Thaksin from there. The caravan will consist of 30  buses and more than 100 cars and pickup trucks. Several Pheu Thai MPs  will join the trip.

 During the visit, red shirt leaders will appear on stage to address  the crowd who will be allowed to enter the World Heritage sites of  Angkor Wat and Angkor Thom for free, he said.

 Last month, another red shirt leader, Nisit Sinthuphrai, boasted that  about 50,000 Thaksin supporters were expected to leave for Laos to meet  him. He said their trip will be broadcast live on the pro-Thaksin Asia  Update television station.

bangkokpost.com

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> I am dealing with the current one, you know, the one supposedly running the country at the moment. Is it really so difficult for you to do the same?
> 
> 
> Unlike you, I tend to deal with things in a context, in this case the historical records of Thai governments...
> 
> Accusing the present travesty of being such because of Thaksin ignores the simple fact that your ridiculous list of things this government hasn't addressed is like saying that they haven't made rain or magically produced fish in the rivers and rice in the fields because they don't have sufficient barami.
> 
> ...


Ah, yet another substantial fail...where is the need to look at this government in a historical context? Unless you are looking at how Pheu Thai are just one group of the same bunch of Chinese-Thai who have been governing here for generations....the names change.....that's all. 

However, there are these things called priorities. 

This government won an overwhelming mandate at the polls. Given to them by the *people* of Thailand. A substantial majority in the house, means they have all the power to push through legislation rapidly.

What have they done? Spent a lot of valuable, *tax-payer* time on reconciliation and an amnesty for Thaksin. Part of this ridiculous deal is going to be to allow the scum PAD to get off scott free for their long-list of crimes...and then there's the Abhisit governments murderous rampage, which at present is looking as though it will mean they and the army will be allowed to exist untouched. Talk about a total failure! Talk about a sell-out! And all for one man. Everything for him. 

I already mentioned the serious lack of parliamentary time devoted to more pressing issues....which you have all but ignored. Thaksin's return is not a pressing issue, it never has been, it never will be. He decided to leave. His choice. His responsibility. 

And the country hasn't changed. Nothing has improved. The lot of the common man has not changed at all. It just drags on........there hasn't been anywhere near the amount of parliamentary time devoted to other more pressing issues. It is all reconciliation or amnesty every day!

Go ahead, argue the point, try it. You can't win this. 

True reconciliation comes when people take responsibility for what they have done. Nothing even remotely close that is in the offing here. Just more of the same avoiding responsibility via 'reconciliation', that this country has seen for decades...

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by mao say dung
> ...


Ah, yet another example, as if any were needed, of your total lies, distortion and trolling.

----------


## mao say dung

> This government won an overwhelming mandate at the polls. Given to them by the people of Thailand. A substantial majority in the house, means they have all the power to push through legislation rapidly.


I read this far and had to just give up... sorry. 

Anyone who thinks having a "substantial majority in the house" means a government has "all the power" to wipe its own ass without genuflecting in the direction of those who could have them couped out in any number of ways has paid very little attention to the "context". 

If they really had "all the power" they would have brought big bro home by now, had Abhisit and his military handlers up on charges, and issued a new constitution that gave the Shin family a 100-year lease on power in the Kingdom... that is, of course, if all your paranoid twaddle were true.

But it ain't... and as has been pointed out before now, you don't really enter into anything resembling rational discussion, and this nonsense has grown boring.

----------


## nostromo

SD - instead of saying I am trolling - well you have said that always when you are losing - why not actually defend your position and present your case, with fact and so on.






> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> ...

----------


## StrontiumDog

> SD - instead of saying I am trolling - well you have said that always when you are losing - why not actually defend your position and present your case, with fact and so on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah, yet another example of your never ending trolling. 

Learn to read. I've 30,000+ posts for you to find your own evidence. You are the accuser. Supply evidence.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> This government won an overwhelming mandate at the polls. Given to them by the people of Thailand. A substantial majority in the house, means they have all the power to push through legislation rapidly.
> 
> 
> I read this far and had to just give up... sorry.


Translation. I realise I've lost so now I will resort to put downs....




> Anyone who thinks having a "substantial majority in the house" means a government has "all the power" to wipe its own ass without genuflecting in the direction of those who could have them couped out in any number of ways has paid very little attention to the "context".


Your naivety is startling! I can't believe you wrote this. Oh yes, I can....

This is supposedly a democracy. Games must be played. Factions pandered to. Ruses employed. Groups kept pacified. The result is the same. It's one big circus. And do try to remember that an electorate has to be appeased/answered to....this is not a dictatorship. 

And also try to remember that Pheu Thai have the military by the balls at the moment..........they can only negotiate such a deal because of the public support they have and their position in parliament. No army sociopath is going to be stupid enough to mount a coup. Or do you still think they will, because Jatuporn has been saying they will for almost 2 and 1/2 years  :rofl: 

I just bet you do................




> If they really had "all the power" they would have brought big bro home by now, had Abhisit and his military handlers up on charges, and issued a new constitution that gave the Shin family a 100-year lease on power in the Kingdom... that is, of course, if all your paranoid twaddle were true.


From the absurd to the ridiculous! Well done. Proof that having failed to discuss anything of worth, your only way out was to lapse into gross hyperbole, seriously flirt with absurdity (and of course get a few patronising digs in) and avoid the arguments by presenting garbage. You really have absolutely no idea how things work do you. Your naivety is childlike. 

Of course there are many groups here, all vying for their piece of the pie. But Pheu Thai are holding all the cards at present and everyone else knows it. The Democrat's can't do a thing to stop them. The only reason that they haven't gone after Abhisit and others, is precisely because they want Thaksin to come back ASAP. He is part of this obscene and offensive deal!

Oh and Thaksin has claimed he will be home soon...in some "style". Or did you miss that bit?

And I'm sure he would love to do what you suggest....but you know, the normal people of Thailand might have a problem with such a betrayal....




> But it ain't... and as has been pointed out before now, you don't really enter into anything resembling rational discussion, and this nonsense has grown boring.


Try some rational discussion first, and I'll be happy to join you. All you've done is write total bollox, ignored a post I took the time and effort to write and then went off into la la land. Your complete lack of integrity is once more on show. No wonder you love Pheu Thai/Thaksin so much. Birds of a feather....

----------


## mao say dung

> What are they doing to solve the problems with.... poverty, human rights, women's rights, inequality, corruption, rape laws, child abuse laws, human trafficking, gun crime, domestic violence, education, the environment, malpractice and compensation, the southern insurgency, consumer rights and protection, censorship, enforcement of laws and on and on and on and on....


 :Smile:  la-la-land?

----------


## hazz

^and the quoted text is la la land because:
Pt are addressing these issues in parliment?
These issues are not the respicibility of the thai government?
Pt has better things to do than worry about these issues?

Fancy fleshing out 'la la' with your thoughts?

----------


## Tom Sawyer

SD and MSD - The answer is simple and there is no real discord that I can see. The majority of people who voted for PTP were voting for Thaksin. I'd like to believe that many were also voting for a move away from class-based patronistic cronyism, and maybe some did - but it's obvious that most had no problem - even cheered a return of old square face. The bottom line is that's what they wanted. So SD - this is your stop - now get off and fuck off.

----------


## mao say dung

> Fancy fleshing out 'la la' with your thoughts?


My thoughts are hardly relevant. Thai governments, whether Dem/Royalist/Military or Thaksinite (since those are all that remain for the nonce), are neither empowered nor inclined to take on that absurdist wishlist.

It is probable that given enough time, the shallow roots that democracy seems to be extending may encourage the growth of a civil society that may begin to demand that some of those issues be taken on by a government, some day.

To criticize an actual on-the-ground administration that has been in power for less than a year for not taking that list of issues on is disingenuous at best, but probably just blatantly dishonest like most of the ranting that is generated by The Nation's perverse worldview.

The Yinglak administration is _elected_, not divine.

----------


## nostromo

I woke up because of the house party. Well it was my back to work party so I blame myself. Instead of killing the bastards who happen to be my friends I eventually came back to TD to see any opinions about my second car purchase. Then for my sins (you know I am not religious) ended here. Again. And it is again in every sense, for this has been going on for so long. Growing older with memory has it's benefits as well, while SD may be "forever young", he "put me down" as old man long time ago, is he mentally 15 or 16? Forever young... that is a good song by Alphaville, btw. 

Thaksin should get a fair trial - he was made fugitive for his wife's land deal at market price.

Not trial by yellow kangaroo court.

Now I take a swim and have breakfast 0700 hours. Can you take a swim in your poor fuc"er universe SD? Or was that the alternate universe you seem to live in.  Good luck with that.

----------


## BKKBoet

^Teakdoor rule No. 1. don't post when you're drunk.  :smiley laughing:

----------


## StrontiumDog

> SD and MSD - The answer is simple and there is no real discord that I can see. The majority of people who voted for PTP were voting for Thaksin. I'd like to believe that many were also voting for a move away from class-based patronistic cronyism, and maybe some did - but it's obvious that most had no problem - even cheered a return of old square face. The bottom line is that's what they wanted. So SD - this is your stop - now get off and fuck off.


So it wasn't the minimum wage rise, or the tablet PC's? 

They all just wanted Thaksin back?

----------


## BKKBoet

^I missed that election poster.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

I'd say they are teachers.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Exiled Thaksin inches closer to return to Thailand | GMA News Online | The Go-To Site for Filipinos Everywhere
*
*Exiled Thaksin inches closer to return to Thailand*

  Amy Sawitta Lefevre, Reuters April 12, 2012 1:43am 

*VIENTIANE, Laos*  - Thailand's fugitive former  premier Thaksin Shinawatra took some small but symbolic steps towards  the fringes of his homeland on Wednesday after five years in self-exile  and at the heart of a bitter and bloody power struggle.

 The tycoon arrived on his personal jet in the Lao capital Vientiane and  waited seven hours before greeting a crowd of 1,000 of his cheering  "red shirt" supporters, who crossed the nearby border to greet the  populist hero as legal moves to bring him home a free man gather steam  in Thailand's parliament.

    "I think about home all the time," a smiling Thaksin told a scrum of Thai reporters, photographers and TV cameramen.

    "I'm here because there are so many people I haven't seen for a long time. I will come back home, but in a smooth way."

     With his 44-year-old sister Yingluck Shinawatra installed as prime  minister and backed by three-fifths of parliament, Thaksin's return,  whitewashed of his graft conviction, is looking increasingly likely, but  could be anything but smooth.

    But while his  homecoming might unnerve his powerful and uncompromising enemies among  the military and establishment elite who might try to thwart him, those  who elected him in 2001 and 2005 landslides are counting down the days.

     "This is the most exciting moment of my life. When I see him, I want to  tell him to fight, fight and to hurry back home," said red shirt  Somboon Chaiyasuth, wearing a T-shirt and necklace bearing pictures of a  smiling Thaksin.

    Thaksin's visit to Vientiane,  just 20 km (12 miles) from Thai soil, is the closest he has been to home  since fleeing into exile for a second time in August 2008 to evade a  two-year jail term for a conflict of interest case levelled by  graft-busters appointed by the military junta that toppled him in a 2006  coup.

    He pleads innocence and insists he wants to stay out of the limelight and has no political ambitions.

     His chief aide, Kwanchai Praipana, a radio deejay who commands  Thaksin's vast network of northeastern red shirts and led bloody  confrontations with the army in 2009 and 2010, insists Thaksin has  officially retired.

    "If Thaksin returns it won't  be as prime minister," he told Reuters on Tuesday, dressed in red  bathtowel at his radio station in Udon Thani, a city he calls the "red  shirt capital" an hour's drive across the border from Laos.

    "Yingluck is the best replacement for Thaksin."

     Thaksin, 62, met politicians, businessmen and loyalists in Vientiane on  Wednesday, adding fuel to opposition claims he is a "remote-control  premier", running a government from his Dubai mansion via his proxy, the  politically inexperienced Yingluck.

    DIVISIVE FIGURE

     While Yingluck has utilized her charisma to uphold an unspoken truce  with Thaksin's enemies since coming to power last July in the third  Shinawatra election landslide in a decade, her elder brother remains an  divisive figure seen by many Thais as capable of derailing the fragile  peace.

    To the rural and urban working classes,  Thaksin was a mould-breaking premier who prioritised millions of  downtrodden poor, but for the army top brass and the elite in faraway  Bangkok, he is crony capitalist who manipulated the masses and  orchestrated the violent red shirt uprisings to try to re-take power.

     Thaksin is racing to consolidate power and shore-up allegiances with  big business and politicians as Yingluck's government pursues changes to  the constitution and a reconciliation programme to strengthen democracy  and heal rifts.

    The current parliament session  has been extended to allow debates over the formation of a 99-member  Constitution Drafting Assembly and a peace bill that has sparked  widespread anger, with the opposition warning of an imminent  "reconciliation war".

    A house reconciliation  committee, chaired by retired General Sonthi Boonyaratakalin, who led  the coup against Thaksin, has selectively picked out two recommendations  by an independent research body to put to debate: an amnesty for  political offenders since 2005 and the nullification of probes by the  now-defunct Assets Scrutiny Committee, appointed by the army to  investigate alleged graft by Thaksin and his cabinet.

     Commentators see trouble brewing and warn of a return of devastating  "yellow shirt" street protests or even a coup if Yingluck's  "parliamentary dictatorship" - as the anti-Thaksin camp calls it - moves  to rescue the multi-millionaire. *— Reuters*

----------


## StrontiumDog

Just as an aside, here is another of Amsterdam's clients....his latest it looks like...

The Post Newspapers Zambia - Latest News, Politics, Business, Sports, Photos, Videos » Main Story » Henry seeks to halt interpol alert

*Henry seeks to halt interpol alert*

                                                                                                        By Chiwoyu Sinyangwe 
                             Tue 10 Apr. 2012, 13:30 CAT   

 
_FILE PICTURE: Henry Banda (in white trousers) runs away from a photojournalist who was taking a picture of him._

HENRY Banda's decision to hire high-profile international lawyer,  Robert Amsterdam gives insight into the amount of money he accumulated  when his father ruled Zambia, says home affairs minister Kennedy Sakeni.

Henry, a fugitive son of former president Rupiah Banda, is wanted by  Zambia's joint investigative team for suspected fraud  in connection  with his role in the US$257 million sale of the Zamtel to LAP Green  Networks of Libya.

Although not a government official in 2008, Henry is alleged to have  connived with former communications minister Dora Siliya to  single-handedly hire RP Capital of Caymen Islands to value the asset  liability position of Zamtel in preparation for the controversial sale  in 2010.

Siliya has been taken to court for allegedly cancelling a duly-awarded  tender for provision of radar services to the then Lusaka and  Livingstone International Airports, a decision investigative wings say  cost the country K1.9 billion.

Henry has been placed on the International Police (Interpol) red notice list as a wanted person.

Henry, currently domiciled in South Africa, has hired Amsterdam of Amsterdam & Peroff LLP to halt the Interpol alert.

"These unspecified allegations against Henry Banda are politically  driven and without foundation. It is clearly not a genuine  investigation," stated Amsterdam, who also represents former president  Banda, in a claim to counter Zambia's pursuit for Henry.

But Sakeni said Henry was not being persecuted but "merely" being asked to come and clear his name.

Sakeni said Henry's hiring of Amsterdam told a big story of how much  "foreign exchange" the former president's son had accumulated.

"People who have money, what can you do? Maybe, he has no confidence in  our local lawyers? We don't know how much they are paying that lawyer,"  Sakeni said in an interview.

"It's up to individual level but certainly they have the money. How else  can they hire an expensive lawyer of the nature if they don't have the  money? It gives us a bigger story. Where have they got that wealth to  hire such as an expensive lawyer? I am told the lawyer is paid millions  of US dollars. I believe we have our lawyers who may be even much better  than  him. But that is their business, we can't go into it."

According to their official website, Amsterdam & Peroff  states that  it offers legal counsel to companies and individuals facing critical  challenges.

Among the prominent individuals Amsterdam has represented are  incarcerated Russian billionaire and politician Mikhail Borisovich  Khodorkovsky, and former Thailand prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

Shinawatra hired Amsterdam to serve as international lawyer and adviser  to the defence counsel of the United Front for Democracy Against  Dictatorship.

Though Amsterdam could not represent Khodorkovsky in Russia as no  foreigner can argue before a Russian court, and the Federation has  refused to issue a visa, he still represents Khodorkovsky on the  international stage.

And Sakeni described as a "welcome development" the announcement by  South African High Commissioner to Zambia  Moses Chikane that South  Africa was aware that Interpol is now active on Henry's case and that  his country was ready to do its part as long as it was within the  stipulated laws.

"The young man is not being persecuted. He shouldn't hide in the  father's immunity just because the father was president," Sakeni said.

"If he is suspected of wrongdoing, we should not just fold our arms and  just look at him like that. He is just like any other citizen. A suspect  is just a suspect like any other person. He is not of special status.  If the state has high suspicion that he was involved in some corruption  or crimes of any kind, he should just own up and appear before the  officers so that they are able to interview him and get the truth."

Sakeni advised Henry to voluntarily come back to Zambia rather than through an arrest.

"Maybe he knows too much that and he is convinced that he committed some  felony of some kind and that is why he has been running away," said  Sakeni.

"Some of his friends, including those who been arrested, are on bail.  So, why run away? For how long is he going to run away? The world has  become too small. Running away will not do. The best he can do is not  even to wait for Interpol to bring him. Let him come back and clear his  name. He has got many years to go in his life. Running away doesn't  solve any problem and the world has become too tiny for anyone to hide.  What happened to Osama  Bin Laden? He eluded the world for so many years but there it was. It's  not good to run away, especially if the cases you are facing are not  capital offences?"

Sakeni said the allegations against Henry were mere white collar crimes.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*I'll be home this year, Thaksin tells supporters - Yahoo! News Philippines
*
*I'll be home this year, Thaksin tells supporters*


AFP News – 9 hours ago


_Former Thai Prime Minister  Thaksin Shinawatra speaks to journalists as he arrives at a hotel in  Vientiane, the capital of Laos. Thaksin told his "Red Shirt" supporters  Wednesday that he expects to set foot in his homeland again this year_

       Thailand's  fugitive former premier Thaksin Shinawatra told his "Red Shirt"  supporters Wednesday that he expects to set foot in his homeland again  this year.

 "With all your support, I'm likely to return home this year. You  probably think I've said often I'll come home. If I can't, please come  to get me," he said in video address from neighbouring Laos.

 An estimated 2,000 people gathered in the Thai town of Nong Khai,  just across the border, to hear the ex-leader speak, police said.

 Thaksin was toppled by royalist generals in 2006 and lives in Dubai  to avoid a two-year prison sentence for corruption that he contends is  politically motivated.

 His sister Yingluck Shinawatra became prime minister last year after a  resounding election victory by the ousted premier's political allies.

 Mass rallies by Thaksin's supporters in the Thai capital in 2010  descended into the kingdom's worst political violence in decades, with  more than 90 people -- mostly civilians -- killed in a military  crackdown.

 "Whether or not I return home, the country must move forward. If  everything is over and I return home, I don't necessarily have to become  prime minister. I can serve people," Thaksin told his supporters in  televised remarks.

 On Saturday Thaksin is set to address thousands of supporters who will attend a rally in neighbouring Cambodia.

 He remains a much-loved figure for many poor Thais, but is hated by  much of the Bangkok-based elite in military, palace and bureaucratic  circles who see him as autocratic and a threat to the monarchy.

 The former leader, who frequently visits other Asian countries, has  previously downplayed suggestions that his political allies are seeking  to clear the way for his return to Thailand without going to jail.

----------


## Butterfly

> Henry, a fugitive son of former president Rupiah Banda, is wanted by Zambia's joint investigative team for suspected fraud in connection with his role in the US$257 million sale of the Zamtel to LAP Green Networks of Libya.


jesus, Amsterdam is really after every corrupted fugitive on the planet, 

must be a lucrative business, can't really blame him, we would probably all do the same  :Smile:

----------


## Mid

> Just as an aside, here is another of Amsterdam's clients....his latest it looks like...


totally off topic and your _slip is showing_

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## robuzo

> *I'll be home this year, Thaksin tells supporters - Yahoo! News Philippines
> *
> *I'll be home this year, Thaksin tells supporters*


I'll be home for Loi Kratong (Sung to the tune of "I'll Be Home for Christmas")

I'm dreamin' tonight of a place I love
Even more then I usually do
And although I know it's a long road back
I promise you

I'll be home for Loi Kratong
You won't have to vote
Incense sticks, banana leaves
And candles on the float
Loi Kratong will find me
Where the love light beams
I'll be home for Loi Kratong
If only in my dreams

----------


## noelbino

All his BS about living through 4 attempts to kill him  is just that" BS.
Give it away square face you are a loser and user.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Thaksin holding Thailand hostage: Abhisit - The Nation
*
*Thaksin holding Thailand hostage: Abhisit*

         The Nation April 12, 2012  4:12 pm 

*The political conflict will persist so long  as fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra is holding the  country as hostage in order to whitewash his conviction and punishment,  Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva said on Thursday.*

"The strength of socity is being challenged whether to bow down for the sake of one man," he said.

Abhisit said all political troubles had Thaksin as the root cause  because society had to sustain the collateral damage stemmed from  efforts to solve Thaksin's legal wrangling.

In rebutting Thaksin's remarks about those benefitted from the conflict  to block reconciliation, he said he could only see those close to  Thaksin as beneficiaries to the conflict stemmed from attempts to  whitewash Thaksin and accomplices.

He reminded the government leaders, particularly Deputy Prime Minister  Yongyuth Wichaidit, that reconciliation could not be forced to happen by  a majority vote.

"I suspect the government is invoking reconciliation as a pretext to grant amnesty," he said.

He said Thaksin would stand to gain from the hasty move for amnesty  while the red shirts would still be in the dark about the bloodshed in  2010.

Thaksin tried to deny he was not a man at the centre of the turmoil but  it was a fact that the conflict erupted because of the Thaksin regime,  he said.

----------


## StrontiumDog

Thai-ASEAN News Network - Thaksin: Privy Council Chief is Not My Enemy



Thaksin: Privy Council Chief is Not My Enemy 

UPDATE : 12 April 2012                 

*During his visit to Laos, former Prime  Minister Thaksin Shinawatra denied that the Privy Council Chief Prem  Tinsulanonda is his enemy.

 Former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra talked to Laotian businessmen upon his visit to the country. 
*
He thanked the Laotian government for a warm welcome and an opportunity  to take part in a religious merit-making ceremony after he had not done  so in a long time while living abroad.

Thaksin also said that he was happy to speak Thai again even though he  was not in Thailand. The former premier claimed that the purpose of his  trip to Laos is to participate in a merit-making ceremony and to meet  with his supporters.

When asked whether national reconciliation will be able take place  within this year, Thaksin appeared hopeful, pointing out that only a  handful of people oppose reconciliation attempts while most want to see  country peaceful again.

His opponents claim that he is the main antagonist to prevent national reconciliation from taking place. 

However, Thaskin claims that he is willing to talk with anyone to move the country forward.

About Chart Thai Pattana Party Chief Adviser Sanan Kachornprasart's  suggestion that he should engage in a dialogue with Privy Council Chief  Prem Tinsulanonda, Thaksin reiterated that Prem is not his enemy. 

The former prime minister also commented on the reconciliation bill, saying that the issue is up to the Parliament. 

He also denied knowing when he would be able to return to Thailand, saying that proper procedure must be taken.

----------


## LooseBowels

> "The strength of socity is being challenged whether to bow down for the sake of one man," he said.


Right quote, wrong "one man"  :Smile: 

You can't argue with that

----------


## sabang

> Abhisit said all political troubles had Thaksin as the root cause


Now coming from the mouth of an unelected ex-Prime minister who's appointed term came between the two largest democratic majorities in Thai history (interrupted by a military putsch), that's a bit rich Mark.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Perhaps a more accurate perspective is that political problems in general arise from that minority that will not accept the political mandate granted the majority. As a repetitive mouthpiece for this minority, Mark is sounding tired and worn out before his time. Might be time for a change of career.

----------


## Butterfly

> Thaksin: Privy Council Chief is Not My Enemy


translation: I am going to get you

jesus, he is so fucking transparent

----------


## Butterfly

> Former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra talked to Laotian businessmen upon his visit to the country.


to teach them what ? how to corrupt government officials ? what a clown,

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Thaksin targets birthday | Bangkok Post: news
*
*Thaksin targets birthday*

*Red shirts aim for July return as 'present' * 
Published: 13/04/2012 at 02:17 AMNewspaper section: News
 Ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra has  indicated that the red shirts are preparing to take him back to Thailand  this year as his birthday present, although he insists he no longer  aspires to be a government leader again.

 _
Exiled former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra wais and thanks Thai  supporters from Nong Khai during a baisri sookwan welcoming ceremony  held yesterday to mark the Songkran festival at Wat Phra That Luang in  the Lao capital of Vientiane. PATTANAPONG HIRUNARD_

 Thaksin said in an interview with the Bangkok Post in Hong Kong  shortly before leaving for Laos that the plan by the red shirts and his  close associates to bring him home by July was beginning to take shape.

 He said the preparations were being made by staunch supporters who viewed him as contributing a great deal to the country.

 His supporters could weigh the situation and know that what he had  done benefited the country, so they wanted to give him a birthday  present by taking him home, Thaksin said.

 "It doesn't matter whether I can return this year. It's OK if I still  cannot. But I think the country is on the path to reconciliation. I  want to make sure all sides are happy," he said.

 Thaksin's birthday is on July 26.

 The former PM also said he did not feel up to becoming prime minister  again if he returns to Thailand from self-imposed exile, even though  red shirt supporters want him to be the central core of the movement and  lead the government.

 "That's impossible, even if I feel grateful to my supporters," Thaksin said before travelling to Laos on Wednesday.

 "When I return to Thailand, I would rather take up teaching duties,  apart from acting as an adviser to the prime minister. I am willing to  teach at any institutions."

 He said he was quite content to act as adviser to Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra, his younger sister.

 "Today is not my day. I'm too old to do so many things like before," the ex-premier said.

 Thaksin also denied talking to judges about securing the release on  bail of red shirt detainees. He was only asking for sympathy for  unfortunate people who were in jail, he said.

 Thaksin yesterday joined Songkran celebrations in Vientiane amid a  healthy crowd of supporters. He received a blessing in a traditional  ceremony joined by 129 Thai monks and 100 local monks at Wat Phra That  Luang.

 Seen by his side were core red shirt members including Tida Tawornseth, Kwachai Praipana and Sutham Saengprathum.

 Thaksin told his supporters that it was the best Songkran ever.

 "This is the best Songkran I've ever had. I have a chance to make  merit with my brothers and sisters who are from the other side of the  Mekong River. This is as close as I can get to my homeland," he told the  crowd.

 Thaksin thanked his supporters who crossed the river to make merit  with him and said he hoped their good deed would bring peace to  Thailand.

 "Wait a little more. It won't be long before I will go back to my brothers and sisters," he said.

 While Thaksin attended the blessing ceremony inside the temple hall,  souvenirs were distributed to red shirts. Each was given a mini-water  container and a paper fan with a best wishes message from Thaksin.

 His next stops are Champassak in southern Laos today and Siem Reap in  Cambodia tomorrow and Sunday where he will also meet red shirts.

 In Surin, preparations were under way for a ceremony to bless Thaksin.

 Nine elephants were selected for the ceremony that will take place at  Chong Jom border checkpoint tomorrow. After the ceremony, the red  shirts will launch the so-called Red Rally to Siem Reap to meet Thaksin.

----------


## robuzo

> *Thaksin holding Thailand hostage: Abhisit - The Nation
> *
> *Thaksin holding Thailand hostage: Abhisit*


It's just that Thailand doesn't know it. Must be Stockholm Syndrome. Could require shock therapy.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Thaksin says he plans to return to Thailand*




         Published on Apr 12, 2012 by     AlJazeeraEnglish 

_Thaksin Shinawatra, the former prime  minister of Thailand currently living in self-imposed exile in Dubai,  received a rock-star like welcoming when he arrived in Laos.

His  supporters had travelled from neighbouring Thailand to see a man they  have been trying to bring home since he was ousted in a military coup  six years ago.

After the coup in 2006, Thaksin was convicted of an abuse of power and handed a two year jail sentence.

With  his sister Yingluck Shinawatra now the prime minister, moves are well  advanced to clear the way for him to leave his base in Dubai for good,  and go back home.

It would be part of a reconciliation process which  may include an amnesty for all political offences since the coup,  meaning Thaksin would avoid jail.

Wayne Hay spoke with Thaksin in Laos in an Al Jazeera exclusive._

----------


## Mid

> "The strength of society is being challenged whether to bow down for the sake of one man," he said.


Oh the Irony .

----------


## robuzo

Careful of the thought police.

----------


## noelbino

> Originally Posted by Abhisit
> 
> 
> "The strength of society is being challenged whether to bow down for the sake of one man," he said.
> 
> 
> Oh the Irony .


Nothing ironic about Abhisit's statement.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

Say what you want - but both Cambodia and Laos have welcomed him to politically use their territory. If they felt he had no chance of a comeback they wouldn't do so. They don't like the thai Establishment and have no regrets (at present) about sticking the knife in do they.

----------


## nostromo

[quote=StrontiumDog;2068421][quote=nostromo;2068324]SD - instead of saying I am trolling - well you have said that always when you are losing - why not actually defend your position and present your case, with fact and so on.



[quote=StrontiumDog;2068293][quote=nostromo;2068083]


> Ah, yet another example of your never ending trolling. 
> 
> Learn to read. I've 30,000+ posts for you to find your own evidence. You are the accuser. Supply evidence.


 SD, do not get me wrong. Criticising you gives me no pleasure. Well, maybe a bit sometimes, in honest debate. But somehow I am starting to get an impression you take this all a bit too personally. This is about political opinions (as news threads here tend to be, and sometimes harsh words are used, sometimes people get a bit carried over as tends to happen in online forums – but, at least in my opinion, this all would be quite boring otherwise). 
  If you (and I do not think you do) nowadays cry yourself to sleep after people criticize and even mock you for position you are known for, then I would be truly sorry if something I said contributed to that, that is not my intention, and that definitely would not give me any pleasure. If too many people started kicking you, I might end defending your right to your opinions. 

  But you must know that you have become official Mr. Yellow, or The Yellow Man. That is now a political grave you have dug for yourself over a long time, from which you now try to rise by stating you never supported previous yellow governments. If you indeed have grown to not believe in yellow Democrat military governments any longer, that is great. Victory to democracy (albeit limited in scaleJ ). We all make mistakes, learn and think, and can change our opinions over time. You too can do just that. And even get respect for that. 

  But, if you just try to, out of sudden, push the idea that you never supported those you were seen supporting for so a long time, that sounds a bit too much 1984 Ministry of Truth, manufacturing new truth at will. Cynical person might even think “oh that is convenient, is he now switching sides, after his side lost, and he has seen hopes of political tricks or military coup bringing his side back to power diminished”. I am not saying that, but that is one logical conclusion some people might end up with.

  If the right honourable gentleman recollects, this very thread was started by him at, at the time when he still supported what he now states he never supported. The point back then, was to prove the Red and Democracy movement were only about bringing back Thaksin – conveniently ignoring the very real movement for democracy. As we now see, yellow ammat propaganda was all fake. This government did not bring Thaksin back at first available flight , and it would be different thread to discuss if K. Thaksin is welcomed back, and whether he might come back. The people of the country should decide that. 
(removed something that could be seen as offensive and negative for SD's rehab to democratic society)

----------


## StrontiumDog

^  :rofl: 

You are either a comic genius (unlikely) or completely off your trolley (more likely).

----------


## sabang

And you, when faced with sensible Post, prove yourself incapable of rational debate, yet again. Have you ever contemplated the sheer absurdity of yourself, of all people, accusing _others_ of it being 'all about Thaksin'? Like so many others of your ilk, it is you that are the obsessive, the monomaniac. You however compounded your position with flagrant dishonesty- by trying to disguise your obsession with a thin veneer of neutrality, which was very soon rendered transparent. Fail.

We await with bated breath your next smiley.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## StrontiumDog

^  :rofl: 

For real Sabang, as someone cursed with massive bias, are you really accusing me of bias? Really? 

You are suggesting that I am one of an ilk? For real!!!!! You, the man who jumps to defend Thaksin constantly with such brilliant lines as he won 2 elections. So did f*cking George W Bush!!!!! Arguably the worst president in US history. 

I tried to engage people here in debate, but when faced with facts that contradict their bizarre opinions, they shut up. 

Then they disappear for a while....

Then they reappear spouting the same crap they did before, having failed to learn from the last time. 

It thus becomes a cyclical event and I can't be bothered to engage in the same crap over and over again. Some people are just too stupid to learn. It is what it is.

----------


## DroversDog

> ^ 
> For real Sabang, as someone cursed with massive bias, are you really accusing me of bias? Really?


Yes you are massively biases SD. You are really trying to flog a dead horse if you are trying to make anybody believe you aren't biased.  :deadhorsebig:

----------


## DroversDog

> Originally Posted by *StrontiumDog*  
> _
> Ah, yet another example of your never ending trolling. 
> 
> Learn to read. I've 30,000+ posts for you to find your own evidence. You are the accuser. Supply evidence.
> _


_
Firstly 29,500+ are copy/pastes articles which you do no more then some formating of the post. i.e. They are not your words.....
The others are - 100+ SD posts, 400+ SD replies

BTW, In the past we have reposted plenty of your posts which have major bias in them. There is no need to repost them. Just get over it. 

_

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ Oh look another of the massively biased Thaksin fan-club pops up and accuses me of bias....3 now....who is next?

Do you people realise how utterly stupid you look? 

Do you understand? YOU ARE BIASED! That is why people who attack your bias appear to be somehow the opposite to you, in your failed, warped thinking. You appear to only be able to hold the concept of 2 opposing sides to any argument in your poor excuses for minds. The old, 'if you aren't with us, you must be against us' extremely poor style of thinking. Childlike in its simplicity and naivety. 

We are not, we simply disagree with your biased, warped thinking. 

Ah, insight....something so rarely found amongst normal people. None of the above possess any. 

Anyway, DroversDog, you did claim a photo had been tampered with/Photoshopped when it fact it was real....proving what a complete failure you are. You refused to accept reality, so strong is your denial and bias.

----------


## Butterfly

> ^ 
> 
> For real Sabang, as someone cursed with massive bias, are you really accusing me of bias? Really? 
> 
> You are suggesting that I am one of an ilk? For real!!!!! You, the man who jumps to defend Thaksin constantly with such brilliant lines as he won 2 elections. So did f*cking George W Bush!!!!! Arguably the worst president in US history. 
> 
> I tried to engage people here in debate, but when faced with facts that contradict their bizarre opinions, they shut up. 
> 
> Then they disappear for a while....
> ...


yep typical MO of fascists wanabee and conservatives

no debate possible, see sabang posts as typical delusional red supporter, hilarious and hopeless

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Thaksin vows to be back for birthday - The Nation
*
*Thaksin vows to be back for birthday*

         The Nation April 14, 2012  1:00 am 
 
                          Pheu Thai Party

*Fugitive former PMThaksin Shinawatra told his  red-shirt supporters yesterday that he would return to Thailand in the  next three or four months.*

Thaksin, who has been in self-exile overseas, did not specify the exact  date but he had said earlier that his supporters were preparing for his  return as "a birthday present". His birthday is on July 26.

"This year's Songkran is a good sign that we will be happy together  again. I will certainly come back in the next three or four months,"  Thaksin said. "All the Thais will be happy. From now on, there will be  no yellow shirts and red shirts. Thai people will make up their  differences. I can't help people who don't want to reconcile," he said,  in a probable reference to opponents of the government's "rushed  reconciliation" moves.

He was addressing a group of red shirts, mostly from the Northeast, at a hotel in Laos' southern province of Champasak.

Thaksin also claimed credit for selecting his sister Yingluck  Shinawatra as a prime-ministerial candidate. "Although I was overseas, I  helped you appoint a prime minister. I chose my younger sister as PM  candidate because I thought she could do the job," he said.

"I believe Prime Minister Yingluck will complete her [four-year] term  in office," said Thaksin, who political observers believe is pulling  strings behind her government.

He also said that the government was implementing many projects to help  prop up prices of farm produce, help poor people and farmers with their  debts, and build motorways and high-speed rail routes.

Earlier yesterday in Vientiane, Thaksin praised Yingluck for avoiding  his errors by refraining from countering political attacks. He said it  was the right strategy for her while serving as the government head.

"It is best not to counterattack. She is doing better than I did. I  can't compare to her in this regard. The PM is patient, and she does not  counter anyone. She is just doing her job. That's the right thing to  do. I did it wrong and she should not copy me," he said.

Thaksin also praised Privy Council President General Prem Tinsulanonda,  who is regarded by many of Thaksin's supporters as his arch-rival. "In  fact, Pa Prem is a senior figure I respect and admire," he said of the  91-year-old elder statesman. 

Thaksin called on Thais to unite for the betterment of the country.

"Songkran should serve as a good beginning for the Thais throughout the  country to love one another. We will do it for our King, for our  country to get stronger, and for every one of us to be happy," Thaksin  said.

The Thai ambassador to Laos, Witthawat Sriwihok, said Thaksin could  travel to Laos because of his good personal ties with many high-ranking  officials in the Laotian government.

-----
Amnesty row widens | Bangkok Post: news

*Amnesty row widens*

*'Political tsunami' lies ahead, Abhisit forecasts*
Published: 14/04/2012 at 02:11 AMNewspaper section: News
 Opposition leader Abhisit Vejjajiva has warned  of a "political tsunami" if the government tries to whitewash the crimes  of former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

 
_Deputy Commerce Minister Poom Sarapol, left, pours water over the  hands of former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra in a traditional rod  nam dam hua ceremony intended to show respect to senior people during  Songkran in the Lao capital of Vientiane. Pheu Thai Party MPs from the  Northeast were also at the ceremony. PATTANAPONG HIRUNARD_

 In an interview with Blue Sky television channel, the opposition  leader said society was not ready to forgive Thaksin, who has been in  self-exile since a 2008 conviction for corruption.

 Mr Abhisit, also a former prime minister, pointed out that the  controversial leader has been at the centre of the political conflicts  of the past few years.

 Earlier this week, Thaksin told his red shirt supporters from Nong  Khai, who travelled to meet him in Vientiane, Laos, that he hoped to  return to Thailand by the end of the year.

 At present, the only way he can do this without being arrested and  serving the two-year jail sentence hanging over him from the 2008  conviction is through a government-sponsored amnesty.

 As it happens, among the government's proposals for forwarding the  national reconciliation process is an amnesty for all people convicted  of political offences resulting from the 2006 coup, which ousted  Thaksin.

 Such an amnesty was crucial for reconciliation, said Banharn  Silpa-archa, chief adviser to the Charthaipattana Party, part of the  Pheu-Thai Party-led coalition government headed by Thaksin's sister  Yingluck Shinawatra.

 Mr Banharn, also a former prime minister, said at a Songkran party in  Suphan Buri that an amnesty should not be aimed at Thaksin alone but  should include all groups, including the red-shirts and the rival yellow  shirt groups.

 But Mr Abhisit said reconciliation would have to consider proposals from all sides if harmony is to be achieved.

 The process should be driven by a neutral party, he said.

 Parliamentarians have been locked in fierce debate since the King  Prajadhipok's Institute (KPI) submitted a report on national  reconciliation.

 Its proposals for achieving reconciliation include granting an  amnesty to those convicted of politically-related crimes in the wake of  the September 2006 coup, as well as dropping corruption charges against  Thaksin by the Assets Scrutiny Committee, a panel set up by the coup  leaders.

 Mr Abhisit said he welcomed the KPI's move to organise public forums  nationwide to invite further opinion on the reconciliation report.

 "Without this public approach, I think a political tsunami will happen," he said.

 "But the process will continue at least until the end of the next House session in November."

 But the government has brushed aside calls for a national debate on the KPI report.

 The House of Representatives voted on April 6 to forward the  proposals by a parliamentary committee on reconciliation, which were  based on the KPI report, to the cabinet for consideration.

 Ironically, the reconciliation committee is chaired by Gen Sonthi  Boonyaratglin, the leader of the 2006 coup and now head of the Matubhum  Party.

 The KPI opposes the move to seek cabinet approval for the proposals.

 It says this would negate the entire process of trying to build "constructive dialogue" towards reconciliation.

 Mr Abhisit said that if the committee's proposals are adopted by the  cabinet, the government would almost certainly push for a general  amnesty.

 He warned that such an action could reopen rifts in society, potentially leading to future conflicts.

 Thaksin insists the reconciliation process and a general amnesty would not trigger renewed political conflicts.

 "It should be left to parliament and the government to work towards national reconciliation," he said yesterday in Vientiane.

 Thaksin called on Mr Abhisit to work with the government in the  reconciliation push. "It's hard to clap with only one hand," he said.

 The former mobile phone magnate also dismissed allegations that he  was in conflict with Privy Council president Prem Tinsulanonda.

 "I wish Gen Prem good physical and mental health for this Songkran  holiday," Thaksin said, adding that all Thais should step back from  conflict and support the country.

----------


## StrontiumDog

See this article from The Economist here...

https://teakdoor.com/thailand-and-asi...ml#post2073978 (House reconciliation panel set up)

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Democrats read between lines of Thaksin's 'return' comment - The Nation
*
*Democrats read between lines of Thaksin's 'return' comment*

         The Nation on Sunday April 15, 2012  1:00 am 
 
                          Former PM Thaksin Shinawatra  receives a blessing from his former ally, veteran politician Snoh  Thienthong, at a ceremony to mark Songkran at a hotel in Siem Reap,  Cambodia, yesterday. Snoh broke ties with Thaksin after the 2006 coup  but reconciled with him
*
Ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra's remark to red  shirts in Laos that he would return to Thailand in three or four months  has political significance, Democrat Party spokesman said yesterday.*

Nakhon Si Thammarat MP Thep-thai Senpong said Parliament would start a  new ordinary session on August 1 and Pheu Thai MPs may table a Royal  amnesty bill to help Thaksin escape being jailed for his offences. He  said Thaksin's three or four month timeframe matched those floated by  Deputy PM Chalerm Yoobamrung and Samut Prakan MP Pracha Prasopdi.

Thepthai said he noticed that Thaksin had also shown a softer political  stance by offering Privy Council President Prem Tinsulanonda well  wishes, even though Thaksin was behind the move of "the downtrodden  [phrai] to topple the elite [ammart]", leading to the unrest in 2010.  Thaksin had also once remarked about a man above the Constitution, an  "invisible hand", by which he meant to involve Prem, the MP said.

"Today, Thaksin has turned 360 degrees to make amends with General  Prem. So there is a suspicion that he has a hidden political agenda.  Since Thaksin has said that he does not see himself as Prem's opponent,  we want to know to who Thaksin was referring when he talked about the  ammart,'' he said.

Thepthai said Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra's Songkran wish  calling on Thais to forgive and move forward could be interpreted as a  political signal intended to help her brother return through an amnesty.

Pheu Thai Party Bangkok MP Jirayu Huangsab said Thaksin's statement  that he would return within the next three or four months did not  reflect the party's intentions, but was a personal view Thaksin had  expressed since Samak Sundaravej was premier.

Meanwhile, Deputy Democrat Party spokesman Mallika Boonmetra-kool said  she would file a complaint of malfeasance and dereliction of duty  against three officials who met Thaksin in Laos and Cambodia, accusing  them of failing to arrest Thaksin. The fugitive former PM faces arrest  warrants in five cases: the special lottery, the Export-Import Bank's  controversial loans to Burma, the Ratchadaphisek land scandal, the  telecom excise-tax conversion and terrorism.

The three officials are Deputy Commerce Minister Poom Sarapol; adviser  to the prime minister Suchon Chalicrua; and Witthawat Sriwihok, the Thai  ambassador to Laos.

Mallika said she would also ask the party's legal team to take action  against MPs who lined up to pour water on Thaksin during Songkran  including Nong Bua Lamphu MP Chaiya Prom-ma, Maha Sarakham MP Yuthapong  Charatsathien, Nong Khai MPs Pongpan Sunthornchai, Somkid Ban-thaisong  and Chompoo Chanthatong, and Bung Kan MP Cherdpong Rat-pongkhan. 

She accused the politicians of demonstrating a lack of conscience by  honouring a fugitive. She said their actions had caused public  confusion.

She also called on Thaksin to give Thais a Songkran gift by returning  to face trial. "He should return tomorrow and not ask any fortune  tellers when he can return home, as he said he wants to return to  Thailand in style,'' she said.

Thepthai supported the idea, saying if Thaksin believed in the justice  system, he should come back to Thailand to face trial. If he wants an  amnesty, Thepthai said, Thaksin must comply with the law and declare  that he does not seek the return of Bt46 billion in assets confiscated  by the state.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Thaksin hails 'signs of reconciliation' - Channel NewsAsia
*
*Thaksin hails 'signs of reconciliation'*

Posted: 14 April 2012 2341 hrs 

 
_A "Red Shirt" supporter of Thailand's  fugitive former premier Thaksin Shinawatra at a rally in Siem Reap  province, Cambodia. (AFP - TANG CHHIN SOTHY) _  

SIEM REAP, Cambodia: Ousted Thai premier Thaksin Shinawatra said  on Saturday Thailand could begin to heal its deep political rifts in an  address to thousands of "Red Shirt" supporters in Cambodia.

Thaksin,  a divisive figure in his homeland who lives abroad to avoid a jail term  for corruption, was greeted with cheers in northwestern Siem Reap  province, in the first major rally he has attended since being toppled  from power in a military coup in 2006.

"There are signs of  reconciliation. Everybody wants it... There are signs that I will be  able to return home to stay with you," he said, adding that royal  anniversaries this year make it an "auspicious time".

Up to  30,000 people had gathered at the site, according to Siem Reap deputy  provincial governor Bun Tharith, although an AFP reporter at the scene  said the crowd appeared closer to 10,000.

Supporters, who filed  through x-ray machines to enter the arena, carried pictures of the  former tycoon and waved banners that read: "We want Thaksin home".

Many  had made the journey across the border in hundreds of cars and buses to  see their hero, who lives in Dubai to avoid a two-year prison sentence  that he contends is politically motivated.

Thaksin is much-loved  by many poor Thais but hated by parts of the Bangkok-based elite in  military, palace and bureaucratic circles who see him as a threat to the  monarchy.

Mass Red Shirt protests in the Thai capital in 2010  descended into the kingdom's worst political violence in decades, with  more than 90 people -mostly civilians - killed in a military crackdown.

Thaksin,  whose sister became Thai prime minister in 2011, has appeared by video  link at the Reds' mass rallies and he sent an address from neighbouring  Laos on Wednesday to say he expects to set foot in Thailand again this  year.

The businessman-turned-politician, who followed his speech  with renditions of popular Thai songs, told the crowd there had been  four failed attempts on his life, but declined to give details, adding:  "I survived, I will not die".

Phnom Penh put on a large security  presence for the event in Siem Reap, best known as the gateway to  Cambodia's famed temples, but denied there was any particular threat.

Cambodia  and Thailand traded heavy arms fire over a disputed border in early  2011 under the previous Thai government, but ties have warmed  significantly since Thaksin's sister Yingluck took power.

- AFP/de

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Il Duce, come-home-now | Bangkok Post: opinion
*
*Il Duce, come-home-now*
Published: 15/04/2012 at 02:34 AMNewspaper section: News
 Aung San Suu Kyi was imprisoned for 15 of the  past 21 years in her own home. Mahatma Gandhi was imprisoned several  times on many different occasions in South Africa and India. Nelson  Mandela spent 27 years in prison.

 The lesson is clear, dear Il Duce: a hero is made of stern stuff and a  leader must prove his mettle. The people mentioned are the heroes your  flock often compare you too.

 But Il Duce, in 2008 you left Thailand to go to the Beijing Olympics,  promising to return; then you pulled a no show. In contrast, Mrs Suu  Kyi's family begged her to leave Myanmar, but she didn't budge as a  matter of principle.

 In 2010, you pledged that you would return and head the red shirt  protest if the government used force; two months and 91 dead bodies  later, you were nowhere to be found, except on Twitter. By contrast,  Gandhi led his people in protests barefoot, facing bullets, batons and  stiff upper lips. Now in Laos in 2012, you've said you will come back  this year. Il Duce, don't tease me.

 I'm not saying all this to criticise you, Il Duce. I'm simply taking a  page out of my high school American football coach's guidebook on how  to inspire the bruised and dead tired to do the impossible. It's called  tough love.

 ''It's fourth quarter!'' (Smack upside the helmet. Ouch!) ''That  tailback been moon-walking all over your ass all night, son!'' (Grab the  face mask, spitting curse-filled degrading/inspiring words. Stink!)  ''Lower your shoulder and hit somebody, boy!'' (Smack again. Ouch!)

 I understand, Il Duce, you don't want to spend a single day in jail. I  wouldn't want to either. Who would? But Il Duce, these are the Songkran  holidays and your red children are flocking to pay homage to you in  Laos and Cambodia. I say, let them bring you back _ a heralded return of  the Kingdom's billionaire son.

 Returning is a risk, Il Duce, I know. But your red flock has risked  lives and limbs for you for the past six years, so I say it's time you  take some risks of your own. It is simply a matter of manliness _ and if  I have to explain this or justify it to anyone, then they ought to put  on skirts and play mahjong.

 There are also practical reasons for your return, Il Duce. The baht  stops with you and no one else. Thailand just can't function without  you. When the Democrats were in government, nobody really knew where the  baht stopped. Was it with Preppy Schoolboy AV? Palm Field Farmer ST?  Khmer Soccer Baron NC? Or Buddha forbid, someone else behind the scenes?  No one knew. It was confusing and it was difficult for the country to  move forward.

 Now that the Pheu Thai Party is in government, we all know where the  baht stops: with you, Il Duce. But the problem is, when ministers and  MPs want things done, they have to fly all the way to Dubai, or maybe  Hong Kong. That's just logistically unsound.

 As well, the business of Thai politics is in a shambles, Il Duce. Who  to approach? Who to grease? How to divide the cake? Somebody has to  make these decisions, but you are so far away and can't wield your power  effectively.

 The licensing auction for 3G has been going on since before Alexander  Graham Bell invented the telephone, and there's no end is in sight. But  if you were here, Il Duce, we know exactly who would get the  concession.

 The Four Seasons Hotel rendezvous wouldn't have been a scandal if you  were the one there, Il Duce. Everybody would have understood it was all  just business _ nothing to see, move along, _ rather than the unsavoury  hanky panky circus it turned into.

 Furthermore, Il Duce, nobody can combat a crisis like you can. Two  months and 91 dead bodies, two years later and they are still arguing  over legal repercussions, reconciliation and amnesty. But you, Il Duce?  You? If you were in charge in 2010, you would have stopped any peaceful,  democratic protest threatening to turn into an illegal, violent  uprising right on the Asia Superhighway. How do I know this? Your resume  speaks for itself.

 In 2003, it took you only three months to come up with some 2,000  dead bodies, without trials, without the due process of law, and not  much longer to reach around 2,600 overall. Legal repercussions? Amnesty  talks? Reconciliation? None. No need. You get things done, Il Duce. Your  body counts are second to none in this Kingdom.

 Under your rule, Bangkok in 2010 would not have been denied Thailand's most treasured national tradition for so long _ shopping.

 Oh sure, Il Duce, there might be those little sissies complaining  about our insensitivity discussing these issues in such a manner. Let  them put on skirts and play mahjong _ we real men roll up our sleeves  and play the Game of Thrones.

 In crisis management, Il Duce, you are incomparable. During last  year's flood crisis, the baht stopped with no one, just as the floods  stopped for no one. You were so far away. If you had been here, you  would have stopped the flood even before it hit the Asia Superhighway.

 You would have set up a bottled water company, put the shares in the  names of your maids and chauffer, bottled the northern run-off, branded  it ''Mr T's Natural Juice'' and made billions with worldwide  distribution. Then you'd have used the profits to set up a casino in Koh  Kong for Thai tourists to go over and enjoy the country's second most  treasured national tradition _ gambling.

 Don't you see, Il Duce? You and I, we speak the same language. We  both studied in the great state of Texas. We know how to get things  done. If we're not sure about something, we can always consult directly  with God, like that other Il Duce from Texas.

 Haters will hate you blindly and lovers will love you blindly, and  they all keep walking into the same brick wall. Only I, Il Duce, will  give you a fair and honest shake, dripping with sarcasm though the shake  may be. You're the most capable prime minister we have had in the past  20 years, Il Duce. Your Otop and 30 baht healthcare schemes were the  best things any prime minister has ever done for the country.

 Sure, you have a track record of human rights abuses and corruption,  but at least 15 million voters do not mind. Meanwhile, other voters cast  their ballots for parties who also have a track record of human rights  abuses and corruption. So frankly, we Thais in general really don't mind  human rights abuses or corruption. Especially the latter, as opinion  polls testify.

 Il Duce, you are still head and shoulders above the rest. I say, this  Songkran, cross the border with your red flock, Il Duce. Ride on a  buffalo as a symbolic gesture. We Thais love pageantry. Should there be a  line of soldiers standing in your way, their rifles levelled, do like  in the movie The Lady, where Mrs Suu Kyi as played by Michelle Yeoh  stares down the barrel of a gun so calmly, so graciously, that the  soldiers can do nothing but turn away in shame.

 Surely if you perform such a heroic deed, a year from now Hollywood  will make a movie of your life, starring Johnny Depp as Il Duce, written  by me and directed by Michael Cimino.

 This, you must do, Il Duce. Don't allow your minions in Italian suits  and German cars to send your red flock to risk their lives and limbs  again. It's time to return the favour. It's time you step up and man up.  We dare to dream big dreams, Il Duce, but first we must take that step  across the border.

 The British empire was built on the playing fields of Eton. The  American empire was built on the high school ''pigskin'' football fields  from sea to shining sea. Your legacy will be built on the back of that  buffalo.

 Heroes are made of stern stuff and leaders must prove their mettle.  Listen to the coach, Il Duce. It's fourth quarter. The clock is ticking  down. You have them on their one-yard line. But they are digging in,  making a goal-line stand.

 It's the longest yard. Motor Mouth CY is bending over right in front  of you; butt high in the air. He's your powerful centre, ready to snap  the ball and bulldoze through the defence. You are flanked by Bad Boy JP  and Vato Loco NS, your fullback and tailback. Pheu Thai MPs are  high-stepping and bouncing their pompoms on the sideline. The former  Missus is calling the play.

 Will you, Il Duce, reach your hands in between the manly thighs of  Motor Mouth CY, and take the ball? Put your shoulder down for a  quarterback sneak, and batter into the endzone for the winning  touchdown?

 Score, Il Duce, and the coach would still smack you upside your  helmet, and so would all your teammates. That's just how things are done  in the manly game. But they would also pat you on your butt; that's how  confident manly men are. Take the snap, Il Duce.

 Or are you going to call a timeout and let Sexy Sister Girl kick the field goal?


* Voranai Vanijaka
*

----------


## sabang

> when ministers and MPs want things done, they have to fly all the way to Dubai, or maybe Hong Kong.





> Alexander Graham Bell invented the telephone


I suppose the editorial department at the BPaste enjoyed their Songkhran.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Of course, here in Asia one is reminded of another glorious Il Duce homecoming- Ninoy Aquino.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassi...gno_Aquino,_Jr.

----------


## robuzo

"The people mentioned are the heroes your flock often compare you too." Seriously?

----------


## StrontiumDog

Thaksin: I won't take any political post | Bangkok Post: breakingnews

*Thaksin: I won't take any political post*
Published: 15/04/2012 at 02:22 PMOnline news:
 Deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra said  he would not take any political post on returning to Thailand but would  only give his younger sister and Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra  advice in her work.

 Thaksin said this on Sunday morning after offering alms to 265 monks  at Angkor Wat in Siem Reap along with a large number of red shirts and  political supporters from Thailand who travelled to Cambodia to give him  a blessing on the occasion of the Songkran festival.

 He said he had long wanted to return to Thailand from self-exile, but  had not done so because the admosphere had not been favourable.

 However, the situation this year was improving, the government and  parliament were functioning properly, and the chance was high for  reconciliation to be achieved and for him to return to his homeland.

 On returning to Thailand, he would not put pressure on the governing  regarding reconciliation and would not take any political post because  of his old age, but would only give advice to Ms Yingluck, he said.

 Concerning amnesty, Thaksin said the matter was still far from  conclusion.  If this really materialised, it must be for the interest of  the majority, he added.

 The former prime minister who was deposed in the Sept 19, 2006 coup,  said there were still talks over another coup, but there was hardly a  chance for this to happen again because this was not acceptable  internationally and the people were now more democratic.

 Even Gen Sonthi Boonyaratkalin, who led the 2006 coup, had admitted that a coup was of no use, Thaksin added.

 On the problem of insurgency in the three southern border provinces,  Thaksin said he agreed to an idea to hold talks at an operative level  because it was no use to continue with fightings and killings.

 All problems should be settled on a negotiation table, he said.

 Thaksin, however, said he disagreed to an idea to set up a special form of administration to solve problems in the South.

-----
Ex-Thai PM Thaksin plans early return from exile | Fox News

*Ex-Thai PM Thaksin plans early return from exile*

 Published April 15, 2012
Associated Press

 BANGKOK –  Exiled former Prime  Minister Thaksin Shinawatra celebrated Thailand's most important holiday  in neighboring Cambodia this weekend, telling thousands of fervent  supporters who crossed the border to meet him that he intends to return  home soon on his own terms.

               Thaksin, ousted by a 2006 military coup after being  accused of abuse of power and disrespect for the monarchy, led a  song-filled rally to mark Songkran, the Thai New Year. Between  appearances on stage, he worked the crowd in a manner recalling his past  political campaigning.

               Thaksin, 62, has been living overseas since jumping  bail in 2008 to avoid a two-year jail term on a corruption conviction he  says was politically motivated. Saturday's event, just a few hours'  drive from northeastern Thailand, raises the question: Will he be  celebrating the next Songkran at home?

               Thaksin —  by far Thailand's most divisive politician  —   has said in the last few days that his return will be "in the next  three to four months," ''not so long," and when "everything is stable."

               He sang several popular songs during his appearance  Saturday, with lyrics changed to stress his homesickness or urge his  supporters to support his younger sister Yingluck, the current prime  minister. He added a strikingly off-key rendition of "My Way," which  segued oddly into "Let It Be."

               Thaksin also visited Laos, another neighbor, as part of  his well-publicized Songkran tour. Since the beginning of the year, he  has visited all four of Thailand's immediate neighbors  —  including  Myanmar and Malaysia  —  suggesting, symbolically at least, that he is  closing on his goal.

               After fleeing Thailand, he based himself in Dubai and  fostered a pro-Thaksin "Red Shirt" movement, a counterweight to a  "Yellow Shirt" royalist group whose 2006 street demonstrations paved the  way for his ouster.

               In 2009, he openly backed Red Shirt rioting against an  anti-Thaksin government led by the Democrat Party, and in 2010 more  discreetly encouraged vastly more disruptive Bangkok street  demonstrations that resulted in the worst political violence in decades,  including the deaths of 91 people over two months.

               Thaksin's battles at the polls have been more fruitful.  Pro-Thaksin parties won convincing victories in all four general  elections since 2001  —  five if an invalidated poll in 2006 is counted.

               With his sister now prime minister and his allies  holding a firm majority in Parliament, Thaksin's prospects appear good.  But his 2006 ouster  —  after becoming the first prime minister ever to  complete a four-year term, and then being re-elected by an unprecedented  majority  —  is a reminder that he still has powerful enemies.

               He has been accused of arrogance, failure to separate  his business interests from affairs of state, and intolerance of  criticism. But many believe he was ousted because his popularity was a  threat to the traditional ruling groups  —  led by an army-palace axis  —   who feared he wanted to usurp their power. <redacted>.

               Post-coup court rulings banning Thaksin's allies from  politics and a constitutional revision to weaken political parties  failed to dent his popularity.

               "The harsh reality is that he wins elections every  time," said Thitinan Pongsudhirak, a political scientist at Bangkok's  Chulalongkorn University. Instead, the prestige and influence of the  army and the palace have declined, dragged down by an antidemocratic  tinge.

               This weekend's Songkran rally is a reminder of  Thaksin's continued electoral potency and places more pressure on his  opponents, Thitinan said.

               Yingluck's government, meanwhile, is taking steps to  get Thaksin off the judicial hook. It has proposed changes to the  military-backed post-coup constitution along with legislation that would  grant an amnesty to participants in the last six years' political  turmoil.

               Thaksin's supporters in Parliament "can do it, they have the votes to act," Thitinan said.

               Opponents hope to delay Thaksin's return until they can  forge a behind-the-scenes agreement to assuage their fears, Thitinan  said. Few take seriously Thaksin's avowals that he does not want to  return to office, and many expect he will seek revenge. Terms that would  preserve the integrity of the army and the <redacted> would be necessary  for closing any such deal.

               But some believe it may be too late.

               "'Stopping him' is not a program. The opposition has  only a negative agenda, and all of them, from the politicians to the  very top, are seen as compromised," prominent Thailand analyst W. Scott  Thompson of Tufts University in the United States wrote last week in  Malaysia's New Straits Times newspaper.

               "About the only good solution that is faintly possible  is if the 'opposition'  —  from Democrat Party to the palace itself  —   realized its hopeless position and negotiated a long-term deal, in which  they gave up much of their privilege, yielded full power to Thaksin's  people, but with a backed-up and locked-in guarantee that he would not  himself take the leadership, and that the palace was safe," Thompson  said. "But this more and more sounds like a fairy tale."




Read more: Ex-Thai PM Thaksin plans early return from exile | Fox News

----------


## robuzo

Tracked down the Thompson piece in the NST in case anyone is interested, it's pretty good:
No fairytale ending in land of smiles - Columnist - New Straits Times

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ yeah, wanted to post that but just too many things to delete, so didn't. Thanks for the link

----------


## sabang

Interesting bloke with some interesting perspectives, is W Scott Thompson. He's an American academic, and an honorary Professor, but lives in Manila. Home page-
W Scott Thompson

----------


## Tom Sawyer

^
Thomson is just another Thaksin hater and apologist for the Yellow side - I mean come on, 'if Thaksin returns he'll destroy democracy' or some such phrase. Fuck off. Tell me again, Mr Ivory Tower, exactly who was it that destroyed democracy?

----------


## sabang

You don't have to be a Thaksin fan to see the total bollocks that the Coup was, and the abject failure of the appointed Abhisit administration. Thompson is no Thaksin fan, but he's certainly a realist compared to the ostrich like yellows that permeate the largely irrelevant Thai media. Worth a read.

I linked his Home page btw because his perspectives are interesting elsewhere too. He's a life long conservative who welcomed the election of Obama for example, a perspective you don't much hear in the polarised American media.

----------


## DroversDog

> He's a life long conservative who welcomed the election of Obama for example, a perspective you don't much hear in the polarised American media.


Maybe because go the other choices were a joke.  :mid:

----------


## robuzo

> ^ yeah, wanted to post that but just too many things to delete, so didn't. Thanks for the link


Yes, I think that is definitely a link only, although sections of it shouldn't be a problem. For example, I think the part that angers Tom S is here, but he only takes notice of part of it (italics mine):

"In fact, he's more of a raging bull right now, feeling _not without reason that he's been cheated_ out of his rightful job, for which he was _overwhelmingly elected_. But his opponents know that _his return means the end of democracy_. His _Mussolini-like bullying may bring benefits to the masses_, but at the end of the day, even _they will no longer have any say_ in whether he ever leaves office."

I think the author simultaneously acknowledges the impropriety of the coup, Thaksin's crypto-fascist populist tendencies- is there really any question that his goal was to achieve a one-party state like has been seen in every other Asian "democracy"?- and the fact that, rather than taking advantage of Thaksin's absence after the coup what his enemies have done is actually to have weakened themselves to the point that once he does get back they will have no longer have any way of stopping him. I alluded to this in a post on the "Thaksin in Cambodia" thread. Next time around not only will the opposition to Thaksin have squandered their moral authority, they also will likely not have the overwhelming advantage in terms of ability to apply main force. 

I'm still expecting that A) as the author also suggests that some might try make him "disappear from the scene, and there are some who hope they can accomplish just that"; failure in such an attempt would strengthen his hand, and B) even when the Thaksin opposition finds their situation hopeless they likely will not go without a fight. They have literally everything to lose. I like the way the author invokes Shakespeare; I have noted in long past posts the Shakespearean elements of events of the past six years. Of course, rather than the War of the Roses we could be looking at something more like England mid-17th century.

----------


## Butterfly

> "In fact, he's more of a raging bull right now, feeling not without reason that he's been cheated out of his rightful job, for which he was overwhelmingly elected. But his opponents know that his return means the end of democracy. His Mussolini-like bullying may bring benefits to the masses, but at the end of the day, even they will no longer have any say in whether he ever leaves office."


that basically says it all, this is the central issue here. What kind of leadership will Thai democracy bring. Obviously it's a breeding ground for dictatorship thanks to the weak Democratic structure of the country and the weakness of the electorate.

----------


## sabang

> Obviously it's a breeding ground for dictatorship thanks to the weak Democratic structure of the country and the weakness of the electorate.


That is quite a stretch given that your sole 'test case' is one guy, twice democratically elected and subsequently removed by coup. Some of the Generals in the post WW2 military junta's were certainly autocratic, but never had a popular mandate.

----------


## robuzo

It's unfair to blame the electorate. The infantilization of the Thai populace was deliberate, I think it's even fair to call it a policy. In any case, everywhere in the world people vote their perceived self-interest. It isn't only the uneducated who vote for the Mussolinis, Perons, and Tanakas (I could go on) of this world. If Thaksin's opponents want to find the parties responsible for the end of democracy (such as it was- the end of the development of democracy, more like) in Thailand, they need look no further than the nearest mirror. Thaksin and the TRT arose in the rubble of an economic crisis (history shows this is no coincidence), and his tenure needed only be a stage. Instead, the reaction of the entrenched elites, military, royalist and otherwise, did nothing but strengthen his hand, and Thaksin played it well until he overplayed it by not realizing he was not (yet) immune to the trump card his opponents held- main force, because democracy and the judiciary be damned, justice in Thailand is the will of the stronger. Thais, in their ongoing embrace of organic conservatism, seem OK with that. So, expect violence. Apparently it remains an acceptable way to settle disputes here.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Too soon to come back, but it's a good year, thaksin says - The Nation
*
*Too soon to come back, but it's a good year, thaksin says*

         The Nation April 16, 2012  1:00 am 
 
*
Fugitive former prime minister Thaksin  Shinawatra yesterday reiterated his wish to end his life in exile and  make a longed-for comeback to Thailand this year, which he said was  marked by auspicious occasions for the Royal Family.*

              After leading red-shirt well-wishers in merit-making at Angkor Wat in  Cambodia's Siem Reap, he told reporters his desire to return to his  homeland was rekindled when thousands of red-shirt followers came to  greet him over Songkran.

      "I'm very happy to see that the people support me and are calling on me to return home," he said.

      "I was moved to see men crying and telling me to go back home … the people love and have mercy for me a lot."

      Even though he had been missing his country very much since Saturday  when he met a lot of red-shirt devotees, the time was not yet ripe for a  homecoming.

      "I would like to wait until the situation has improved to the point that I can have noodles at a roadside shop," he said.

      2012 was an auspicious year for the monarchy and Thais should stop quarrelling and the rifts should be patched, he said.

      His Royal Highness Crown Prince Maha Vajiralongkorn would turn 60 and  Her Majesty the Queen would turn 80 this year - so it was a great year  for Thais, he said.

      There would be no new coup, as the military had learnt it would be useless for the armed forces to seize power.

      The people and all sides, except the opposition Democrat Party, would like to see reconciliation realised.

      His return would not put pressure on the government of his sister  Yingluck to try to bring about reconciliation, as that was a matter for  Parliament.

      The Democrats would eventually find themselves isolated if they did not  heed the people's wish for the nation to see unity and harmony  restored.

      Legal cases had been initiated against him and processed through an  "unfair system" so he would not return to the country to serve a jail  sentence. But he would not mind facing new investigations and trials if  the cases were restarted under a fair judicial system.

      If he returned to Thailand, it would not be to politics because his  sister had been performing well as prime minister and she would be  capably assisted by former Thai Rak Thai Party executives when they  emerge from their five-year political ban next month, he said.

-----
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/loca...ous-homecoming

*Thaksin targets 'auspicious' homecoming*
Published: 16/04/2012 at 01:25 AMNewspaper section: News
 Despite delivering a speech to a crowd of red  shirts saying such an "auspicious" year as this might be the right time  to come home, ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra denies this implies he  is planning an early return.

 Thaksin said he hoped good things would happen to him on what he said was an auspicious year for Thailand.

 He noted that 2012 will mark the 80th birthday of Her Majesty the  Queen and the 60th birthday of HRH Crown Prince Maha Vajiralongkorn.

 He said yesterday that in such a year disputes should be settled and left behind.

 "It is an auspicious year and good things should happen [in such a  year]. As a Buddhist I try to think about auspicious things," he said.

 Thaksin gave alms to monks yesterday in Cambodia's Siem Reap province  with several thousand red shirt supporters who had flocked across the  border to celebrate the New Year with him.

 The former prime minister conceded he desired greatly to return to  his homeland but said he needed to wait for a better atmosphere.

 "Sure, I want to return home very much, but I want to come back when I  can walk freely on the streets, not just sitting in a bulletproof car,"  he said.

 Suriyasai Katasila, a former key member of the anti-Thaksin People's  Alliance for Democracy and now of the Green Politics group, said Thaksin  appears to be pushing hard for reconciliation because the popularity of  his sister's administration is on the wane.

 He said Thaksin sees the need to seize the advantage of Pheu Thai  Party's absolute majority in the House to force through an amnesty plan  and charter amendments while he can.

 Mr Suriyasai also called on the public to read between the lines when Thaksin talked about this as an auspicious year.

 He called the remark an old trick to set the stage for an amnesty.

 "It indicates how he plans to come back in style," said Mr Suriyasai.

 The ousted leader maintained his innocence yesterday, rejecting a  call for him to return to Thailand and serve a two-year jail term to  help further the cause of national reconciliation.

 Thaksin said such an action was unnecessary as he had not done anything wrong. He called the country's justice system unfair.

 "I didn't do anything wrong. If the justice system is just, there is  no need to be afraid if we haven't done anything wrong," he said.

 The former leader insisted he would not take any political posts  after returning to Thailand. Instead he plans on limiting his role to  acting as an adviser to his sister, Prime Minister Yingluck.

 He also admitted yesterday there was little he could do to secure the  release of Veera Somkwamkid, the coordinator of the Thai Patriots  Network, and his secretary Ratree Pipattanapaiboon.

 The two have been imprisoned in Cambodia since December 2010, charged with illegal entry and espionage.

 Thaksin said his efforts were futile, as Veera and Ratree did not  accept the charges. Under Cambodian law, a pardon can be granted only  when convicts admit wrongdoing, he explained.

 He claimed to have brought up the matter with Cambodian Prime  Minister Hun Sen, who has called the ex-premier an "eternal friend", but  Phnom Penh could not break the law to favour the two Thais.

 "Mr Veera doesn't accept wrongdoing. I don't know what to do because Cambodia really wants to help," he said.

 "There's only one way I can help, which is to seek a pardon. That means he has to admit it [that he was wrong]."

 Meanwhile, Democrat leader Abhisit Vejjajiva yesterday urged Ms  Yingluck to exercise political leadership and do her job after returning  to work at the end of the Songkran holiday.

 Mr Abhisit said the prime minister had not been active enough over  the past nine months in office, claiming she seemed unable to  communicate with people to get things done.

 Ms Yingluck also avoided parliamentary meetings, which made her an irresponsible leader, he said.

 "Now that she is here she should work to the best of her ability. I  think Thai society is okay with [her] making mistakes as long as [she]  is doing her job in good faith," he said.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> It's unfair to blame the electorate. The infantilization of the Thai populace was deliberate, I think it's even fair to call it a policy. In any case, everywhere in the world people vote their perceived self-interest. It isn't only the uneducated who vote for the Mussolinis, Perons, and Tanakas (I could go on) of this world. If Thaksin's opponents want to find the parties responsible for the end of democracy (such as it was- the end of the development of democracy, more like) in Thailand, they need look no further than the nearest mirror. Thaksin and the TRT arose in the rubble of an economic crisis (history shows this is no coincidence), and his tenure needed only be a stage. Instead, the reaction of the entrenched elites, military, royalist and otherwise, did nothing but strengthen his hand, and Thaksin played it well until he overplayed it by not realizing he was not (yet) immune to the trump card his opponents held- main force, because democracy and the judiciary be damned, justice in Thailand is the will of the stronger. Thais, in their ongoing embrace of organic conservatism, seem OK with that. So, expect violence. Apparently it remains an acceptable way to settle disputes here.


Excellent post!

Pretty much nailed it.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Lost In Transit From Bangkok To Beijing - Forbes
*
*Lost In Transit From Bangkok To Beijing*

Time to break the radio silence. Goodbye, Bangkok. Hello, Beijing.

 
Chongqing Model Up For Grabs As Party Boss Bo Exits 

 
*Simon Montlake*
Forbes Staff 

I’ve been in China as a resident correspondent for one week  now. And what a week. While I’ve been consumed with bureaucratic hurdles  and domestic irritants, China’s political classes and my journalist  brethren have been consumed by the disgracing of Bo Xilai and his wife.  My colleague Russell Flannery has a take on the affair that you can read here.  Some analysts claim Bo as a flag bearer for the party’s leftist faction  whose downfall suits his liberal rivals. Others see him as a maverick  who didn’t play by the Communist Party rules on seeking consensus and  avoiding public rivalry. As a new arrival, I’m loathe to draw any firm  conclusions. All the evidence isn’t yet in, and there’s plenty that we  don’t know and perhaps won’t know.

 Coming from Bangkok, though, I’m intrigued by the loose parallels  between Bo and Thaksin Shinawatra, the former Thai prime minister. Both  were egotistic, media-savvy populists who used violence to ‘strike hard’  at influential people and then claimed the credit for drops in crime or  extortion. Both played to domestic audiences with nationalist slogans  while furiously courting foreign investors. Thaksin fell from grace in  2006 when the army seized power. He has since fought back doggedly from  exile through political proxies; his sister is now prime minister. Bo’s  political comeback seems far more remote, though the party’s history is  replete with purges and rehabilitations (as Bo’s family knows well). The  fact that some leftist intellectuals  and cadre are on his side may signal an ideological contest inside the  party. But this doesn’t necessarily mean that Bo has any firm political  leanings, beyond his own ambitions. Similarly Thaksin’s supporters  include leftist activists who want to sweep away Thailand’s royalist old  guard and project this ideology onto the ex-premier. He may believe in  none of it, but he needs voters, and the leftists need a figurehead. I  imagine that Bo attracts some of the same support, and for the same  reason.

 Bo and Thaksin hail from two countries with different political  cultures. Crucially, Thaksin ran for office as an outsider, a self-made  tycoon who took on the landed elite. By contrast, Bo is the consummate  insider, a princeling in the party who was groomed for success. That  career has been buried, but other political princelings are sitting  pretty, including leader-in-waiting Xi Jinping. All  in all, an extremely interesting time to be a correspondent in  Beijing. Stay tuned for more, from me and from the rulers of the world’s  most-watched developing economy (which is growing at the slowest rate since 2009). I just hope that I won’t be spending too many days battling with online connections. China dropped off the internet grid  on Thursday for a few hours, in what could be either a technical  failure or a test of the government’s ability to silence online chatter.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*When Thaksin comes home
*
*When Thaksin comes home*

*April 16th, 2012 by Aim Sinpeng, Guest Contributor 
*

“And now the end is here. And so I face the final  curtain. My friend, I’ll say it clear. I’ll state my case, of which I’m  certain. I’ve lived a life that is full. I traveled each and every  highway. And more, much more than this, I did it my way…”As Thaksin and his backup singers sang Frank Sinatra’s _My Way_  in front of a crowd of 30,000 Red Shirts celebrating the Songkran  Festival in Cambodia, he seemed at ease about his prospect of returning  home. “I can smell the air of my mother land. This year I’m confident  it’s a good year. It’s an auspicious year as the Prince will turn 60 and  the Queen will turn 80. There are a lot of indications that I’m going  to be back with my fellow brothers and sisters,” proclaimed Thaksin.

 Late in March 2012, Thai PBS program _Tob Jode_ held a special  roundtable on what Thailand would look like upon Thaksin’s return  (คุยเรื่องทักษิณกลับบ้าน). The discussants were: 1) Sombat Boon-ngam-anong (Red Sunday); 2) Dr. Tul Sitthisomwong (Multi-colored Group); 3) Pravit Rojanapruk (_The Nation_); and 4) Prasong Lert-rattanawisut (Issara Institute).

 Below are some excerpts from the round table.

*Sombat*

 Mass protests will occur when the moment is right, especially upon  Thaksin’s return. Some people would do anything to fight Thaksin, while  others would do anything for him. When Thaksin returns, both groups will  come out to the streets.

 If article 309 is done away with, Thaksin will return. Thaksin has to  think much harder whether he would still be alive when he’s back home.  He was nearly assassinated even when he was prime minister.

 Thaksin’s problems are three fold. First, he has too many fans.  Second, Thailand may get to a point where his party will continue to win  election. Third, the old _barami_ are losing their influence.  All of this means Thaksin has many enemies. Thaksin is part of the  problem and has to be brought back to solve it.

 If Thaksin doesn’t return, there will be status quo in Thai society.  It will remain as divided as it is, nothing will improve. We can’t seem  to move beyond Thaksin. If Thaksin decides to lessen his own political  role, the conflict will be over.

*Tul*

 The forces opposing Thaksin are still strong. Mass mobilization would  occur as soon as people realize Thaksin’s return is imminent. If  Thaksin would be given amnesty, some 300,000 people will be out on the  streets. Thaksin is destroying Thai society and deepening the divide. My  hatred towards Thaksin is logical and reasonable. Thaksin exploits the  differences within Thai society for his own political gains.

 Should Thaksin not come back, things will be the same. It’s unclear  how we can achieve reconciliation. The bigger question is how would the  Yingluck government go on. Whether or not he returns, Thaksin’s crimes  will remain.

*Pravit*

 Both camps will mobilize their forces to oppose/support Thaksin. Thai  society has become so polarized; it’s divided between hatred and  absolute devotion towards Thaksin. Thaksin has become a national  obsession. The media is no exception to this. The middle ground has  become a void. We can’t agree to disagree.

 The Red Shirts can’t accept the hypocrisy in Thai society. Millions  of Thaksin supports do not understand why there is no level playing  field among all public officials, why Thaksin was solely targeted.

 It might be a good thing for the Yingluck government if her brother  does not return. At least it might buy time for people to cool  off…become more mature. Our political system is in transition. How do we  respond to the now awakened poorer, long neglected, section of society?

*Prasong*

 The only way Yingluck would let her brother return home would be via  amnesty. But Thaksin is truly guilty for both the land deal and the Shin  Corp sales.

 Sources from Pheua Thai told me that if Thaksin returns, some inside  the party would lose their interests. Right now they exploit their  relationship with Thaksin (or his party) for their own benefits but once  he’s back, he would reconsolidate his power and many will lose out.

----------


## Butterfly

> If Thaksin's opponents want to find the parties responsible for the end of democracy (such as it was- the end of the development of democracy, more like) in Thailand, they need look no further than the nearest mirror.


absolutely, the opposition and their lack of "democratic ideas" are as much to blame as the dictator himself

----------


## nostromo

> ^ 
> 
> You are either a comic genius (unlikely) or completely off your trolley (more likely).


SD, I did attempt constructive criticism, to which you could have responded much better.
Instead of repeatedly saying I, or anyone who disagrees with you, is stupid, biased, trolling and now off your trolley you could post some argument defending your position. Seems,  for you, there is nothing left really, your lot lost. Just keep copy and paste of yellow propaganda going on. Going for broke?

----------


## nostromo

[QUOTE=Butterfly;2073752]


> ^ 
> 
> yep typical MO of fascists wanabee and conservatives
> 
> no debate possible, see sabang posts as typical delusional red supporter, hilarious and hopeless


Fascists? You repeatedly bring this up, anyone who disagrees with you is a fascist.

I am sure if the professionals dissected your brain they would be amazed with the wiring down there. 

When were people defending democracy fascists? Do please mention Hitler again.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> 
> ^ 
> 
> You are either a comic genius (unlikely) or completely off your trolley (more likely).
> 
> 
> SD, I did attempt constructive criticism, to which you could have responded much better.
> Instead of repeatedly saying I, or anyone who disagrees with you, is stupid, biased, trolling and now off your trolley you could post some argument defending your position. Seems,  for you, there is nothing left really, your lot lost. Just keep copy and paste of yellow propaganda going on. Going for broke?


My side?

Once again, I don't have a side. You do. That's why you think I do. It is your inability to perceive accurately that is at fault. You are incredibly biased. 

Oh, and by yellow propaganda, do you mean the New Mandala, Forbes and Associated Press articles *I* posted above your troll? You do know how to read, right?

----------


## nostromo

> We are not, we simply disagree with your biased, warped thinking.


Besides, who are "we"? Are "we" living in yellow universe now?

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> ...


Why I seem to have an impression you have a side?

Yes you posted one New Mandala article per year. I remember I applauded you for that.

Then this Forbes article by known hater of Thaksin - which is why you posted it in first place - he knows nothing of Asia see his own words "I arrived week ago".

----------


## Gerbil

> he knows nothing of Asia see his own words "I arrived week ago".


Reading remains a problem for you.

He arrived in *China* a week ago..... from Bangkok where he was based before. He's not new to Asia.

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
>  he knows nothing of Asia see his own words "I arrived week ago".
> 
> 
> Reading remains a problem for you.
> 
> He arrived in *China* a week ago..... from Bangkok where he was based before. He's not new to Asia.


I stand corrected. I was just reading his own article. I thought he was based far away in farang world - that is what he sounds like. What I said about him is still correct.

----------


## Gerbil

> What I said about him is still correct.


No it isn't. You should try reading some of his articles.

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> What I said about him is still correct.
> 
> 
> No it isn't. You should try reading some of his articles.


More than 2 that were not PAD dream world? Supply links and I eat these words.

----------


## nostromo

SD, nice job diverting attention from the issue to some obscure "journalist" and giving your henchmen, or disciples more like, do the job. Anytime soon you might end up as a guest in NotTheNation, like K. Thanong of the Nation did. That is fame. 






> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> ...

----------


## Gerbil

> Originally Posted by Gerbil
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by nostromo
> ...


Fuck off and google his name yourself.  :Smile:  I'm not wasting my time to do that for something you will discount / ignore.

----------


## robuzo

Look, the writer drew a connection between Bo and Thaksin- more than a bit tenuous and probably just something that crossed his mind, just sort of an interesting parallel (plus his editor apparently doesn't know the difference between loathe and loath  :Smile: ). The New Mandala piece is a lot more interesting and frankly kind of chilling.

----------


## noelbino

> ^
> Thomson is just another Thaksin hater and apologist for the Yellow side - I mean come on, 'if Thaksin returns he'll destroy democracy' or some such phrase. Fuck off. Tell me again, Mr Ivory Tower, exactly who was it that destroyed democracy?


That's easy.
Thaksin!!!!!!!!!!

----------


## crippen

Moves are already afoot to bring back Thaksin
Published: 5/07/2011 at 12:00 AM

Taking a long time if true.  You can start a human baby and it would have been born by now! ::chitown::

----------


## BKKBoet

He sung 'my way' instead of 'come together'. Says it all.

----------


## LooseBowels

Obviously 4 times democratically elected PM Khun Taksin is waiting till the country is back to the precise democratic position at the time of the illegal junta PAD yellow nutter military coup, before returning home. :Smile: 

Brilliant foresight from the country's only world statesman

You can't argue with that

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Pheu Thai denies trying to hasten amnesty law - The Nation
*
*Pheu Thai denies trying to hasten amnesty law*

         The Nation April 17, 2012  1:00 am 
*
The ruling Pheu Thai Party will not rush to  pass an amnesty bill in order to avoid criticism, Pheu Thai party-list  MP Prompong Nopparit said yesterday*

          Prompong said allegations the party would use its majority voice in  Parliament to single-handedly pass an amnesty bill is false and it could  be next year before such a bill was passed. 

      He also defended Thaksin Shinawatra’s recent claim that he thinks he  could return home this year because it’s an auspicious year in which HM  the Queen turns 80. Such a remark is normal, he said, and reflects  Thaksin's feelings as a Thai who has been away from Thailand for a long  time.

       "He misses home", said Promphong, adding that Thaksin would only  return to Thailand when conditions were right and acceptable to all  sides.

       Asked if Thaksin used the thousands of red shirts who travelled to  Laos and Cambodia to wish him a happy Songkran to pressure Thai society  to accept his return, Prompong discounted such speculation. He said the  red shirts only went there because they truly love Thaksin and others  should not be envious of Thaksin’s popularity.

       Democrat Party deputy spokesperson Sakolthee Pattiyakul said the party  would like to make five demands on the Pheu Thai Party, as well as  Thaksin and PM Yingluck Shinawatra.

       First, Thaksin should accept the existing verdicts handed down by the  Supreme Court. Second, the Pheu Thai party should stop acting  dictatorially by using the party’s majority voice in Parliament to pass  an amnesty bill and amend the charter.

       Third, the setting up of the so-called red-shirt villages should cease  as it creates division, and Thailand should only have one colour.  Fourth, Yingluck must not use her position as PM to help Thaksin, or  pretend not to see the party is doing so. Fifth, Thaksin should stop  being vengeful and cease creating division in the country.

      The government has not sent any signal on whether to issue a  reconciliation law, Deputy House Speaker Charoen Jankomol said. But  Democrat deputy leader Thaworn Senneam suspected it might take a "fast  track" and pass the law swiftly to help fugitive former PM Thaksin  Shinawatra.

      Charoen, a Pheu Thai MP, said the decision on whether to pass a Reconciliation Act was up to the government to decide. 

      "The government has to consider the [Parliament's ad hoc committee]  reconciliation report. It has to inform the Parliament whether it will  or won't take any action within 60 days from the day it receives the  report from Parliament," he said. 

      "It has to give reasons to support why it would not implement and report the progress to the Parliament.

      "The Administrative Branch has the authority to issue a decree for an  urgent case. The Parliament must consider all this in the case of  issuing an Act. So far, there has been no signal from the government on  whether it will issue a law." 

      Democrat deputy leader Thaworn said the government was trying to help  fugitive former premier Thaksin return to Thailand without having to  serve the penalty. 

      This coincided with Thaksin's statement that he would return this year.  However, he said it would be wrong if the government abused its  majority in the Parliament for the sake of itself and cronies without  regard for righteousness and legitimacy, as well as the justice system.

      Thaworn said he believed the government would first issue an amnesty  for Thaksin as a Cabinet resolution to expedite the matter before  informing the Parliament.


-----
Yingluck no comment on Thaksin's return | Bangkok Post: news

*Yingluck no comment on Thaksin's return*
Published: 16/04/2012 at 06:24 PMOnline news: Local News
 Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra on Monday  declined to comment on the remark made by her brother, fugitive former  premier Thaksin, that he hoped to return to Thailand this year because  2012 was auspicious, media reports said.

 Ms Yingluck was updating the progress of the government’s projects to  members of the media at Government House when she was asked by several  reporters about Thaksin’s latest announcement of returning to his  homeland.

 Ms Yingluck reportedly denied to comment on the matter and hurriedly  walked away from the group of reporters and left the premises in her  official limousine.

 Thaksin told a crowd of red shirts when he spent his Songkran holiday  in Cambodia's Siem Reap province on Sunday that 2012 might be the right  time to come home and said he hoped good things would happen to him on  what he said was an auspicious year for Thailand.

 He noted that 2012 will mark the 80th birthday of Her Majesty the  Queen and the 60th birthday of HRH Crown Prince Maha Vajiralongkorn.

 However, the former prime minister, who was deposed in the Sept 19,  2006 coup, denied this implies he is planning an early return.

 Defence Minister Sukumpol Suwanatat on Monday also declined to  comment on the remark, saying only that it was Thaksin’s right to make  such an announcement.  

 On academics’ comments that Thaksin’s “movements” will only hinder  attempts to build reconciliation, ACM Sukumpol said Thaksin had the  right to do so but the government would monitor him to see if it is  within the frame of the law.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Death threat to Thaksin remains : defence minister - The Nation
*
*Death threat to Thaksin remains : defence minister*

         The Nation April 17, 2012  1:00 am 
 

*Defence Minister General Sukampol  Suwannathat re-confirmed yesterday that fugitive former premier Thaksin  Shinawatra is being targeted for assassination.*

Because of security concerns Thaksin is reported to have cancelled a  market visit in Cambodia. He had flown to Phnom Penh to visit the father  of Cambodian premier Hun Sen.

Sukampol added that criticism of Thaksin’s recent moves might hamper  national reconciliation and had not taken into consideration that  Thaksin had the right to travel and his actions were acceptable.

Matichon yesterday reported Thaksin had breakfast at the City Angkor  Hotel in Siem Reap with key members of the Pheu Thai Party and the red  shirts - such as his brother Payap, former People Power Party executive  Yongyuth Tiyapairat, PM's Office Minister Worawat Au-apinyakul, MP  Aim-orn Sinthuprai, and her husband red-shirt leader Nisit, and Aree  Krainara, secretary to the deputy agriculture minister. 

Some red shirts saw him off yesterday and Thaksin also gave money to a girl who danced for him.

      Meanwhile, former 2006 coup leader turned reconciliation maker General  Sonthi Boonyaratglin has warned the passing of any national  reconciliation bill must proceed cautiously.

       Sonthi, head of the House ad hoc committee on national reconciliation,  said it fell on the government to create a mood of reconciliation  before any such bill was passed. This he said, was in accordance with  the recommendation of organisations like the King Prajadhipok’s  Institute (KPI).

       He added that KPI proposals also included a need for fact finding and transitional justice.

      The Pheu Thai party’s support for passing an amnesty bill through  Parliament or for seeking a royal decree must proceed carefully, Sonthi  warned. The party must heed the majority voice in society and ensure  that the move would not deepen existing conflict, he said.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Thaksin eyes a third way home | Bangkok Post: news
*
*Thaksin eyes a third way home*

*ANALYSIS:  Ex-premier could return this year if he plays his cards right, and he may have an ace ready*
Published: 17/04/2012 at 01:26 AMNewspaper section: News
 Ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra told  his red shirt supporters over the Songkran holidays that this year might  be the right time for him to return home.

 But what he didn't tell them is exactly how he would do it.

 Prinya Tevanaruemitrkul, deputy rector of Thammasat University and a  law lecturer, believes there are at least three means the ousted premier  could employ to expedite his way back to Thailand.

 The first is to push for the issuance of the amnesty law. The second  is for a new constitution, which could contain an amnesty clause, being  put in place.

 However, neither of these two options would be an easy task to  achieve because Thaksin's opponents are keeping a close watch on moves  to pass the amnesty law and also the charter amendment, Mr Prinya said.

 Any attempts to enact the amnesty law and new charter could lead to a  resurrection of anti-Thaksin movements, which might gain enough  strength to put the Yingluck Shinawatra administration under serious  pressure, he said.

 Mr Prinya said Thaksin would have looked at other means as well, aside from these two options.

 "A clever man like Thaksin will certainly play several cards at a  time. He will have prepared several methods. Once he sees it is  difficult to play the first two cards, he will have a third  alternative," said Mr Prinya.

 According to Mr Prinya, the third alternative is Thaksin seeking a  royal pardon for the two-year jail term he received in the Ratchadapisek  land case.

 If he obtained a royal pardon Thaksin would then return to Thailand  to face the judicial process in four other cases that are still pending  in the courts.

 However, Thaksin might set the condition that if he is to be tried  for the four other cases, all investigations carried out by the Assets  Scrutiny Committee (ASC) would have to be nullified and re-investigated  by the National Anti-Corruption Commission or any group not hostile to  him, Mr Prinya said.

 The four other cases are the two- and three-digit lottery scheme, the  Exim Bank loan for the Myanmar government, alleged irregularities in  satellite concessions which allegedly favoured Shin Corp, and alleged  assets concealment while he was in political office.

 "This option could be the most acceptable to people who are  politically neutral. Nobody would get everything they wanted, none would  lose everything," said the political analyst.

 Mr Prinya added that people who wanted to see Thaksin jailed would  not get everything they wanted. The same goes for Thaksin's supporters  who want Thaksin to returns home a free man without any legal obstacles _  they will not get everything they want either.

 Meanwhile, Noppadon Pattama, Thaksin's legal adviser, said it would  not be an impossibility for the ruling Pheu Thai Party to help Thaksin  return home by the end of the year.

 He insisted, though, that Thaksin did not want to benefit from any  provision in the amended constitution. In his opinion, the best way home  for Thaksin is the reconciliation bill drafted by Deputy Prime Minister  Chalerm Yubamrung.

 Mr Noppadon said the government deliberately put the reconciliation  bill to parliament so that representatives of the people could freely  debate the proposed legislation.

 "The bill will be thoroughly reviewed by the House committee. The  government would not use any dictatorial means to enact the law," he  said.

 People may have noticed that even the research team from King  Prajadhipok's Institute agrees with the suggestion the investigations by  the coup-appointed ASC should be nullified, he continued.

 "We are not proposing laws to whitewash Thaksin. Instead, we are  proposing them to get rid of the coup's legacy," said Mr Noppadon.

 "Thailand really needs to free itself from the shackles of political disputes to be able to regain a leading role in Asean."

 Over the past seven months, the Yingluck Shinawatra administration  has driven its political reconciliation efforts via parliamentary means,  particularly through meetings of the House committee on national  reconciliation and the House committee on constitutional amendment, he  added.

----------


## Butterfly

a fourth option wasn't given

him being killed and returning in an urn,

could be the best option, his followers could worship him as a god and use his remains as proof that God exists

----------


## robuzo

Needs a royal pardon- there's a casino waiting to be built!

----------


## baldrick

> there's a casino waiting to be built!


on some land his wife bought

oh the irony

----------


## nostromo

> a fourth option wasn't given
> 
> him being killed and returning in an urn,
> 
> could be the best option, his followers could worship him as a god and use his remains as proof that God exists


Inciting violence are we? During military govt you would have been done for that - if inciting violence against them. In democracy you are free to have your opinions, however twisted they are, in all shades of yellow.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Sanoh: Thaksin must accept trade off | Bangkok Post: breakingnews
*
*Sanoh: Thaksin must accept trade off*
Published: 17/04/2012 at 04:38 PMOnline news:

 Veteran politician Sanoh Thienthong on Tuesday  advised fugitive former premier Thaksin Shinawatra to accept that he  will not get back the 46.37 billion baht confiscated by the courts in  his assets seizure case, in return for the likelihood of receiving  amnesty.

 
Pheu Thai Party-list MP Sanoh Thianthong

 The Pheu Thai Party-list MP said the prime minister's party was   discussing proposed reconciliation laws, including granting an amnesty  to political offenders, because the current atmosphere is generally good  for reconciliation.

 The amnesty bill would be pushed through parliament in the name of  the majority Pheu Thai Party, not the coalition government, he said.

 “if an amnesty bill is enacted, there should not be any resistance. I  don’t see anyone has any problem. Apart from the Democrats, who don't  want to reconcile.

 "Well, I don’t care, I don’t have to care about them,” Mr Sanoh said.

 “As for Pol Lt Col Thaksin (Shinawatra), he may have to give in  and accept  that it will not be possible for him to reclaim his 4.6  billion baht.

 "Better to think of the money as a donation to charity. The return of  Pol Lt Col Thaksin is likely to occur after the enaction of the amnesty  bill.”

 Early this month, 307 MPs voted in the House in favour of  forwarding controversial proposals on national reconciliation in a study  report prepared by King Prajadhipok's Institute (KPI) for further  consideration by the cabinet, despite strong opposition from Democrat  Party-led opposition MPs and warnings from the KPI researchers that  their report should not be mis-used for partisan political ends.

 Among the KPI's proposals are granting an amnesty for offenders in  politically related cases back to 2006, and dropping charges of abuse of  power brought against the Thaksin Shinawatra administration by the  former Assets Scrutiny Committee set up by the coupmakers who toppled  the government in September 2006.

 The opposition Democrats and anti-Thaksin groups fear this  could mean the former prime minister could return home without facing  further prosecution in the several cases still pending against him and  that negotiations may result in Thaksin being given back all or part of  his seized assets. 

 The Democrats have vowed to oppose to the very end any move to return the  money to Thaksin.

 Mr Sanoh also said the planned amendment of the post-coup 2007 constitution is necessary.

  “The 2007 constitution must be thoroughly amended because  independent organisations have been given too much power and it's a big  mess,” Mr Sanoh said.

 “It will reman so as long as we establish an independent organisation  to decide a matter by a majority vote. For example, if you can control  five people in a nine-man committee, that is a disaster.”

----------


## taxexile

> "Well, I don’t care, I don’t have to care about them,” Mr Sanoh said.


spoken in the true spirit of reconciliation.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Thaksin expected to return in four months: Surapong - The Nation
*
*Thaksin expected to return in four months: Surapong*

          April 17, 2012  6:01 pm 
*
Fugitive expremier Thaksin Shinawatra is  expected to return to Thailand after a new law for national  reconciliation becomes effect in three to four months, the Foreign  Minister Surapong Towichukchaikul said Tuesday.*

Surapong, who is an MP from the ruling Pheu Thai Party, said that he  saw no obstacles to such a law, adding that he believed that most people  in Thailand wanted to see national reconciliation achieved.

The Nation

----------


## robuzo

> "Well, I dont care, I dont have to care about them, Mr Sanoh said.
> 			
> 		
> 
> spoken in the true spirit of reconciliation.


It's true as far as it goes, nor should he expect them to care, but it isn't especially diplomatic, and alienates not just the Democratic Party politicians but also people who voted for them before but may not be card-carrying members. Disrespecting potential supporters shows a lack of understanding of what democracy is supposed to be about. This place has a long way to go.

----------


## Calgary

> Originally Posted by taxexile
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				"Well, I don’t care, I don’t have to care about them,” Mr Sanoh said.
> ...


Think Sanoh is explicit? 

I have heard more than once from those who cite recent coupist political history and everything R'song demonstrated, that given its' history, the Democrat Party is closer to being a criminal organization than a political party.

Try reconciling with that.

Just fohget about reconciliation IMHO....let elections order political forces.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> *Simon Montlake*
> Forbes Staff 
> 
> I’ve been in China as a resident correspondent for one week now. [...]
> 
> Coming from Bangkok, though, I’m intrigued by the loose parallels between Bo and Thaksin Shinawatra, the former Thai prime minister. 
> 
> [...] Bo and Thaksin hail from two countries with different political cultures. Crucially, Thaksin ran for office as an outsider, a self-made tycoon who took on the landed elite. By contrast, Bo is the consummate insider, a princeling in the party who was groomed for success.


Simon was/is a decent writer - but never (IMO) much of a journalist, and he was always anti-red. His comparison is silly. If anything, Bo and Abhisit would be better comparisons (if anything ever happened to Mark). Since he's now "working" (stringer?) for Forbes - a right wing lock step rag - it's no surprise. It's a good fit. I'll bet Crispin and Tasker are envious.

----------


## Thaihome

^
Actually his totally inaccurate description of Thaksian “as an outsider, a self-made tycoon who took on the landed elite” is nothing more than Thaksin PR.  Thaksin has been in politics for 20 years (held cabinet positions in 3 different governments) and his billions come from telecom concessions granted by a military run government and protected in 1997 crisis by insider knowledge from his deputy PM his position in the Chavalit government. His main support comes from the North and Northeast provincial landed elite.

That is hardly the history of a self made billionaire political outsider.  I think Simon was trying to be nice and here you are criticizing him for repeating the myth. 
TH

----------


## Butterfly

> That is hardly the history of a self made billionaire political outsider.


indeed, he was a cheat, always been, no wonder he has the blind support of some farangs here




> I think Simon was trying to be nice and here you are criticizing him for repeating the myth.


I think he was trying to be ironic with that outrageous myth,

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Democrat tallies 'disastrous' cost of supporting Thaksin - The Nation
*
*Democrat tallies 'disastrous' cost of supporting Thaksin*

         THE NATION April 18, 2012  1:00 am 
 
                          Chavanont
*
The government has been trying to do everything to  favour fugitive former premier Thaksin Shinawatra - and the result has  been a range of disasters, Democrat spokesman Chavanond Intarakomalyasut  said yesterday.*

The first is a moral disaster, Chavanond said, pointing to the damaged morality and conscience of many government officials.

As an example, while Thaksin - a court-convicted fugitive - was in Laos he was welcomed warmly by the Thai ambassador.

Chavanond also quoted Thaksin's claim in an address that national  police chief General Priewpan Damapong had sent him a bulletproof vest.  "It turned out that the court's ruling is meaningless to anyone winning  the election," he said.

The second disaster was one of logic, Chavanond said. Thaksin sang the  song "Let It Be" and told the media the mother of Kamolgade Akkahad -  who was among the 91 who died in the political turmoil of 2010 - should  accept amnesty and sacrifice. He also sang the adapted version of the  song for her. It meant Thaksin, like red-shirt leader Natthawut Saikua,  could ignore the deaths of 91 people and the country's damage so that  Thaksin could celebrate Songkran in Thailand next year, Chavanond said.

Chavanond said another disaster was to the rule of law. Thaksin and his  supporters accused the Supreme Court's ruling of being illegal and  tried to scrap the cases against Thaksin. Thaksin's fight against the  organisations established under the 1997 Constitution was so determined  it led to the dropping of Bt2 million in a pastry box. 

"Pheu Thai party-list MP Pichit Chuenban was jailed for six months and  Thaksin was sentenced to two years in jail and his Bt4.6 billion assets  seized. That is what they call a double standard," Chavanond said.  "According to Thaksin's standard, was the court supposed to accept the  pastry box so it would rule correctly?"

Pichit served a six-month jail term for contempt of court over the  controversial Bt2 million pastry box bribery attempt before the  scheduled ruling on Thaksin's Ratchadapisek land case.

The fourth disaster has been to democracy. The Pheu Thai Party claimed  the 15 million votes were justification for the party to bring Thaksin  home. This appears to be so because the government has not been serious  in implementing the other policies it announced during its election  campaign.

Chavanond said the Democrat Party was not a rival to Thaksin nor the  Pheu Thai Party - but is a political party that sticks to the rule of  law and wants to save the system.

He said the Democrats would not be able to stop Pheu Thai's attempts to  help Thaksin as they did not have enough votes in Parliament. However,  if Pheu Thai is confident it is doing the right thing, it can continue  and see whether the 15 million voters still support it.

Chavanond said his party did not oppose Thaksin's return if he came and  served his penalty. "The younger sister of Thaksin is the prime  minister. His brother-in-law is the national police chief. Thaksin is  the most powerful person in the country. What blocks Thaksin from  returning to the country is the justice system. Thaksin cannot be above  the law."

----------


## Butterfly

> "Pheu Thai party-list MP Pichit Chuenban was jailed for six months and Thaksin was sentenced to two years in jail and his Bt4.6 billion assets seized. That is what they call a double standard," Chavanond said. "According to Thaksin's standard, was the court supposed to accept the pastry box so it would rule correctly?"


worth quoting for our democracy loving friends with a penchant for fascism and populism

----------


## Butterfly

> The younger sister of Thaksin is the prime minister. His brother-in-law is the national police chief.


jesus, that alone is a clear violation of Democratic principles in any nation

here, in fascism paradise, perfectly acceptable

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Main - Side Views - End seems near for Thaksin saga ? Pavin Chachavalpongpun @ Wed Apr 18 2012
*
*End seems near for Thaksin saga — Pavin Chachavalpongpun*

April 18, 2012

APRIL 18 — He may still be on the run from the law but former  Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra has once again managed to raise the  political temperature in Thailand.

 In the latest move to prove his enduring popularity, Thaksin chose to  celebrate Thailand’s most important holiday in neighbouring Cambodia  during the weekend, telling fervent supporters who had crossed the  border to meet him that he planned to return home soon — on his own  terms.

 Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen rolled out the red carpet in Siem  Reap to welcome Thaksin, and even organised a meeting between Thaksin  and his Red-Shirt supporters, underlining yet again the close personal  ties between the two men.

 Thaksin, who was ousted in a 2006 military coup after being accused  of abusing his power and showing disrespect for the <redacted>, led a  song-filled rally to mark Songkran, the Thai New Year.

 Between appearances on stage, he worked the crowd in a manner recalling his powerful political campaigns of the past.

 Thaksin, 62, has been living in different locations overseas since  jumping bail in 2008 to avoid a two-year jail term for corruption. He  maintains that the corruption case was politically motivated.

*A deal in the works?*

 To the Red Shirts, the event in Siem Reap, just a few hours’ drive  from north-eastern Thailand, has raised a crucial question: Will he be  celebrating the next Songkran at home?

 Thaksin said at the rally that his return would be “in the next three  to four months”, “not so long”, and when “everything would be stable”.  But some doubt if that homecoming will be possible so soon.

 There have been some talks between Thaksin’s representatives and  members of the old establishment. In February last year, there were  reports that a deal had been struck between the rival camps, with  Thaksin promising to leave the military and the palace alone and his  enemies agreeing to allow him to return without facing any charges. The  Yingluck government seems to lend credence to such reports through some  of its actions.

 It is apparent that Prime Minister Yingluck is interested in making  peace with the traditional elite, while going ahead with an amnesty plan  that will allow Thaksin to escape his jail sentence.

 <snipped>

*The Hun Sen link*

 Meanwhile, through his excellent hospitality, Hun Sen has lent his support to Thaksin and the Red Shirt movement.

 Indeed, this is the first time in modern history that a Cambodian leader has openly taken sides in Thailand’s internal conflict.

 In the past, it was Thailand which had supported the Cambodian opposition to destabilise the regime in Phnom Penh.

 Hun Sen had a taste of it when Thailand backed a Khmer  Rouge-dominated coalition against him in the 1980s. Several decades on,  Cambodia is no longer a passive player in the relationship with its  neighbour.

 Despite living in self-imposed exile overseas, Thaksin has remained a  key player in Thai politics. His party, through different  reincarnations, has won every single general election since 2001, with  the last one bringing Yingluck into power last year.

 His entrenched political power, through various proxies, has in some  ways eroded the influence of the <redacted> and the military, which critics  claim comprise mainly anti-democratic elements.

 The traditional elite simply could not compete with Thaksin in the  game of electoral politics. And Thaksin’s activities at the weekend are a  sign that his continued electoral potency will put more pressure on the  traditional elite.

*Changes to constitution*

 Yingluck’s government is taking steps to get Thaksin off the judicial  hook. It has proposed changes to the military-backed, post-coup  constitution along with legislation that would grant an amnesty to all  those involved in the political turmoil of the past six years.

 With Yingluck’s Pheu Thai-led government holding a majority in  Parliament, the possibility of it passing a law that could vindicate  Thaksin of his past wrongdoings cannot be ruled out. And, if Thaksin  does indeed return to Thailand, it could only mean one thing: The  success of his enemies in preserving the integrity of the military and  the <redacted> in exchange for his freedom.

 But the question then will be: What will be the future direction of  Thai democracy amid this power rearrangement among the elites? 

** Pavin Chachavalpongpun is associate professor at the Centre for South-east Asian Studies, Kyoto University, in Japan.*

_* This is the personal opinion of the writer or publication._

----------


## crippen

Quote T H 

 His main support comes from the North and Northeast provincial landed elite.



WTF?? ::chitown::

----------


## robuzo

> *Democrat tallies 'disastrous' cost of supporting Thaksin - The Nation
> *
> *Democrat tallies 'disastrous' cost of supporting Thaksin*
> 
>          THE NATION April 18, 2012  1:00 am 
>  
>                           Chavanont
>                   [B]


Thanks for including the photo. It makes it ever so slightly easier to determine whether he said "another disaster was to the rule of law" with a straight face.




> Thaksin is  the most powerful person in the country. What blocks Thaksin from  returning to the country is the justice system.


That has to be a translation error. Surely even a Thai politico can't contradict himself that blatantly in two sequential sentences, unless he is so paranoid that he imparts magical powers to Thaksin in addition to the massive, indeed according to Chavanont unparalleled, influence that keeps him out of the country in which he is the most powerful person.




> Thaksin cannot be above  the law."


Perhaps he'd like to provide a list of who can be above the law, and who can directly benefit from the law being broken and still have the nerve to talk about the sanctity of the rule of law.

Why oh why can't Thaksin have an opposition that can be taken seriously? They make it too damned easy.

----------


## Calgary

> His main support comes from the North and Northeast provincial landed elite.


Really?


All those thousands of Red Shirts I have rubbed shoulders with, at all those rallies since the coupist rape of Thailand in 2006, were "_provincial landed elite_"?

Who knew.

----------


## Seekingasylum

Revisiting this thread one is reminded of the fact that argument for most is just an opportunity to rehearse an unfounded opinion, nurtured and cherished ad nauseam, for no other reason than to bolster the holder's delusion he is more informed than another.

Reading the same old tired meanderings of the Teakdoor Red supporters group, feebly attempting to burnish the tarnished image of an ousted charlatan , it occurs to me that their mental incapacity has reached a chronic stage and is beyond any redemption. 

Further discussion is quite futile.

They are all quite mad and I should imagine the more deranged among them will be trekking towards Cambodia to kiss the hallowed ground where their fearless leader recently addressed his chosen people, the lumpen, toothless Isaan mob wearing their silly cowboy hats and ghastly farmer's weeds.

----------


## Calgary

> The government has been trying to do everything to  favour fugitive former premier Thaksin Shinawatra


Fugitive? Trust 'The Nation' to misleadingly slip in that misnomer at every opportunity. To exile oneself from political enemies who coup'ed him and kangaroo court'ed him, does not a 'fugitive make. No matter how repetitive and frequently they use the term. Only resonates with their fellow coupists.




> _"As an example, while Thaksin - a court-convicted fugitive......"_


Wow, hit 'er again for good ole' agenda sake.




> _It meant Thaksin, like red-shirt leader Natthawut Saikua,  could ignore the deaths of 91 people and the country's damage so that  Thaksin could celebrate Songkran in Thailand next year, Chavanond said._




Huh.........talk about spinning the spin. I know Natthawut scares the hell out of these guys. He is the next generation who will be putting the boots to their slim electoral chances. Denigrating Natthawut, Jatuporn and my hero Arisman will gather strength. Watch for it. Thaksin is perfectly content to letting this powerful next generation of leaders take over. The Red Shirts revere them already and any denigration by the Amart is just digging their own grave.

"_The Pheu Thai Party claimed the 15 million votes were justification for the party to bring Thaksin home. This appears to be so because the government has not been serious in implementing the other policies it announced during its election campaign_"

Yeah, is there a problem with that?...... Thaksin was openly linked to the last election, and the PTP won the election in large part because of that. .....This guy is "pissin' into the wind'




> He said the Democrats would not be able to stop Pheu Thai's attempts to  help Thaksin as they did not have enough votes in Parliament. However,  if Pheu Thai is confident it is doing the right thing, it can continue  and see whether the 15 million voters still support it.


[/I]

That is correct. They lost the election and cannot stop the PTP from implementing its' mandate. They don't have to wait and see if the electorate supports them. That was already accomplished. If he is saying that the PTP will be scrutinized at the next election, I agree with him....Not a problem.





> "anond said his party did not oppose Thaksin's return if he came and  served his penalty.


[/I]

A penalty him and his fellow coupists imposed for daring to win elections, is not a penalty. This guy is 'just suckin' sand'.

----------


## Calgary

> _Indeed, this is the first time in modern history that a Cambodian leader has openly taken sides in Thailand’s internal conflict._


After the PADite Fascist border escapades in order to save their political skin at home, is anyone surprised by this?




> His entrenched political power, through various proxies, has in some  ways eroded the influence of.............. the military[/B]


But I don't think people generally are aware of how much. ......After R'song, the UDD/Red Shirts view this military in the same light as they would a foreign occupying force. It speaks to Ms. Y's political acumen, that she has been able to placate this institution while retaining support of her political base.


[QUOTE_=""]".......the possibility of it passing a law that could vindicate  Thaksin of his past wrongdoings cannot be ruled out.[/QUOTE_*]
*
Since when is winning elections "wrongdoings". ......Well, if you are one of the coupist sympathisers, I guess it is.




> _But the question then will be: What will be the future direction of  Thai democracy amid this power rearrangement among the elites?_


_"Don' worry 'bout it_"...Democratic Elections will amply answer that question. Faulty though they are in Thailand.

----------


## robuzo

> Revisiting this thread one is reminded of the fact that argument for most is just an opportunity to rehearse an unfounded opinion, nurtured and cherished ad nauseam, for no other reason than to bolster the holder's delusion he is more informed than another.


Never fear, thegent, nobody who has been paying attention has any such delusions about you.

Given your worries about Thaksin, and there is reason to worry, it should trouble you all the more that his opposition lacks any semblance of moral authority, because there may soon come a time when violence won't be sufficient to keep Thaksin's "lumpen, toothless Isaan mob" from the halls of power- although maybe Thaksin will manage his lot better than Dems did theirs, keep them from trying to start wars with neighboring countries, etc. Not that it is clear why you seem to prefer the yellow lumpen to the red, but never mind. Did the mob at the airport seem more palatable than those in the Bangkok central shopping district?

----------


## Seekingasylum

I see no moral dimension at work in the political theatre of the absurd that is Thailand, Robuzo.

To embrace rabies in favour of the plague strikes me as a redundant choice particularly when the end result is invariaby the same.

The quaint notion that the great unwashed will wield power sooner than later is as risible as the idea that I will obtain Thai citizenship and especially when one takes into account the prohibition of anyone without a university degree standing for election to the Thai parliament.

The Yellow shirted movement's occupation of the airport was a masterpiece of surgery on the Thai body politic and was a resounding success. The Red rabble's occupation of central Bangkok was simply an assembly of hired louts, hooligans, misfits and political journeymen of the worst sort looking to advance their own self serving agenda. 

The election of the current administration represents no progress and will no doubt dissolve into the usual chaos. It's their way but to expect an emancipation of the poor to emerge from any so called democratic process is quite, quite silly.

Farang should stick to what they know best which in this benighted country is really sweet fuck all.

----------


## mao say dung

Considering this:




> The Yellow shirted movement's occupation of the airport was a masterpiece of surgery on the Thai body politic and was a resounding success. The Red rabble's occupation of central Bangkok was simply an assembly of hired louts, hooligans, misfits and political journeymen of the worst sort looking to advance their own self serving agenda.


You hardly needed to say this:




> Farang should stick to what they know best which in this benighted country is really sweet fuck all.


On the other hand, projecting your own ignorance on to all and sundry is never a good idea. 

"Emancipation of the poor"?

----------


## baldrick

> Quote T H  His main support comes from the North and Northeast provincial landed elite.    WTF??





> All those thousands of Red Shirts I have rubbed shoulders with, at all those rallies since the coupist rape of Thailand in 2006, were "provincial landed elite"?  Who knew.


who do you think pays for all the busloads of rabble ?

face it , thaksin is just another scum who should be in jail

----------


## robuzo

> The quaint notion that the great unwashed will wield power sooner than later is as risible as the idea that I will obtain Thai citizenship and especially when one takes into account the prohibition of anyone without a university degree standing for election to the Thai parliament.


So, a Thai university degree means one has slipped out of the category of "unwashed"? Newin Chidchob will be glad to hear it. I think the notion that the "great unwashed" shouldn't have a vote, which in case you hadn't heard is a means for the average to exercise a degree of political power without actually holding office in a representative democracy, is what the Democrats and their PAD enablers find so distasteful, so apparently they don't share your confidence that the peasantry can't wield power, at least insofar as they can get a demagogue to throw them a bone at the elite's expense. If Thaksin doesn't give them something, which so far hasn't been much but amounts to orders of magnitude above what any other politico has given them before, do you suppose they'd still vote for him? That is how Thaksin got into power, by the way- people voting for him. He didn't take power through the barrel of a gun, or exploit an opportunity that was created by main force, unlike English Mark.

Then again, 


> The Yellow shirted movement's occupation of the airport was a masterpiece of surgery on the Thai body politic and was a resounding success.


 I think you just excused yourself from being taken seriously, 


> Farang should stick to what they know best which in this benighted country is really sweet fuck all.


 although your self-knowledge as is almost as impressive as the vestigial intelligence and decency that now and then show through in between bouts of bitter sputtering about the "benighted country" in which you have chosen to live and, I'm guessing, occasionally fall from your bar stool. That your perspective renders you incapable of seeing a "moral dimension" isn't much of a surprise.

----------


## Butterfly

> It's their way but to expect an emancipation of the poor to emerge from any so called democratic process is quite, quite silly.


it's not silly, it's delusional, and Robuzo is day dreaming, as usual.

----------


## Seekingasylum

Gosh! 

These Reds are sensitive souls, aren't they?

All quite amusing but honestly, sticking westernised labels on the political classes here in Thailand is as futile as pinning a tail on the donkey blindfolded.

You chaps simply haven't a clue.

----------


## mao say dung

Yeah... sensitive to nonsensical posturing. 

"Farang not understand Thai culture" is one thing coming from a Thai, but beyond idiotic coming from a farang whose next statement is always some sweeping generalization intended to demonstrate his deep understanding of Thai culture.

Not that those who engage in such obvious stupidity can be expected to understand that that is what it is.

----------


## StrontiumDog

* Thai government denies death threats to Thaksin     * 

           David Boyle         
 Wednesday, 18 April 2012                                     



Fugitive former Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra gestures to supporters last week on a visit to Siem Reap. Meng Kimlong
 
Thaksin Shinwatra’s personal secretary and Thai government sources  have denied media reports claiming death threats were made against the  controversial ousted former prime minister during his trip to Cambodia  over the New Year holiday. 

Thailand’s The Nation newspaper yesterday reported  that Thai Defence Minister General Sukampol Suwannathat had said  Thaksin had cancelled a trip to visit a market because of a death threat  and instead flew to visit Hun Sen’s father, Hun Neang.

But  Thaksin’s personal secretary Noppadol Pattama told the Post yesterday:  “We are not aware of any death threats or assignation attempts against  Dr Thaksin.

“Preparations went well and no nasty incidents took  place during his stay in Cambodia. We are thankful to Prime Minister Hun  Sen for taking such good care of Dr Thaksin,” he said. 

Prak  Chan Thoeun, deputy commander of military police in Siem Reap, called  the reported death threats “completely exaggerated information”.

Jarupan  Kuldiloke, the spokeswoman of Thaksin’s Puea Thai party, said by email  yesterday that Sukampol Suwannathat had been misquoted and that  “red-shirt” leader Nuttawut Saikua had also denied any threats had been  made. 

“It is a local red shirts leader in Chiangmai said this  news. But nobody else have heard about the assassination [threat],” the  email said. 

The “red shirts” is the common name for the United  Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship, the political pressure group  that allies itself with Puea Thai, which now holds power in Thailand  under the leadership of Thaksin’s sister Yingluck Shinawatra. 

Thaksin was greeted by tens of thousands of adoring red-shirt supporters over the weekend in Siem Reap, where he pledged to return home soon before leaving the country on Monday. 

He was ousted during a bloodless coup in 2006 and later fled the country after being found guilty of corruption.

----------


## robuzo

> Yeah... sensitive to nonsensical posturing.


I'm not sure I'm being accused of that- what did I write that made it appear my feelings have been hurt? I mean, I'm as capable of pity as the next guy, and it is kind of sad to see thegent lowering himself to the level of an airhead like Flufferboy, but then again apparently whatever he came to this "benighted country" for it wasn't to rise but rather to sink, and Pattaya is a good place in which to accomplish that. Why would any self-respecting person stay in a country in which he despises practically every native? Of course, the presence of a large, and if the yellows have their way, permanent underclass lends itself nicely to the creation of places like Pattaya, so there is something for the likes of thegent like about it.

----------


## Butterfly

> assignation attempts against Dr Thaksin.


oh, is it back to Dr Thaksin again like good old times when his minions had to address him as a revered Dr ?

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Thanksin will return if justice system is really fair: defence minister - The Nation
*
*Thaksin will return if justice system is really fair: defence minister*

          April 18, 2012  2:19 pm 
*
Defence Minister Gen Sukampol Suwannathat  said Wednesday that former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra would wait  until he is certain that he will receive fair trials in cases against  him before returning to Thailand.*

Sukampol said Thaksin wanted to return to Thailnad soon but he would  have to wait until it was certain that the justice system would be fair.

"When the scale is not tilted he will return because he is a gentleman," Sukampol said.

The Nation

----------


## Butterfly

> Originally Posted by mao say dung
> 
> 
> Yeah... sensitive to nonsensical posturing.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure I'm being accused of that- what did I write that made it appear my feelings have been hurt? I mean, I'm as capable of pity as the next guy, and it is kind of sad to see thegent lowering himself to the level of an airhead like Flufferboy, but then again apparently whatever he came to this "benighted country" for it wasn't to rise but rather to sink, and Pattaya is a good place in which to accomplish that. Why would any self-respecting person stay in a country in which he despises practically every native? Of course, the presence of a large, and if the yellows have their way, permanent underclass lends itself nicely to the creation of places like Pattaya, so there is something for the likes of thegent like about it.


Robuzo, you are a silly day dreamer. You believe in fairy tales, like many do here, and it's fine. But stop pontificating us with all that Thai democratic non-sense and yellow this and yellow that idiocies.

----------


## robuzo

^Look, this stuff is either worthy of discussion or it's not. If you don't think it is why not piss off, it isn't as if you add anything to the discussion. I mean, if you are fluttering above it all, why bother?

----------


## Calgary

> Thaksin will return if justice system is really fair: defence minister - The Nation


Obviously implying it was not fair before. This time from Cabinet level. Everyone knows that except die-hard coupists and their political brethren. 

They continue their self-serving charade, trying to criminalize those they coup-ed out of politics. They think they have convinced people that Thaksin is the mother-of-all offenders, set apart from all other politicians in Thailand. This is true for readers and believers of the Domestic media, but some people are more discerning. All of this to hopefully legitimize their past political adventurism.

Self-serving deception to the extreme. 

Last years election thoroughly repudiated them and validated their opposites.

----------


## Seekingasylum

As ever, you and your ilk miss the point. It is not through some mystical cultural sleight of hand that farang fail to understand the system here but the fact that in their conceit and stupidity they still cleave to the stupid notion that the Thai political system is anything other than oxymoronic.

Allying yourselves to one group over another is absurd since neither group is representative of anything very much beyond a complex but transient synthesis of personal aggrandisemnent, patronage and economic betterment at the expense of others not within its dedicated orbit. 

Reducing the whole farrago to a simplistic ideological battle between Yellow and Red might suit some western observers vain enough to believe they have an insight worth sharing but in truth they are just being a bit, well, stupid.

----------


## Butterfly

> Look, this stuff is either worthy of discussion or it's not.


it's worthy of a discussion, but we went through every angle of it already, and the conclusion is always the same no matter how long you want to talk about it, we are dealing with two fascist groups and you are trying to lecture us on how one is better than the other.

You add nothing to the debate, nothing we don't know already, and nothing that will change anything, except vent your frustration.

----------


## robuzo

> Allying yourselves to one group over another is absurd since neither group is representative of anything very much beyond a complex but transient synthesis of personal aggrandisemnent, patronage and economic betterment at the expense of others not within its dedicated orbit.


Not sure which ilk you are talking about, but the items you note above are hallmarks, to varying degrees, of politics all over Asia (and maybe everywhere else). Japanese politics, for example, could be described, albeit incompletely, as a "transient synthesis of personal aggrandisemnent, patronage and economic betterment."  The difference in Thailand is violence, and the acceptance of it as the factor that trumps all of the above. Main force has historically been the ultimate deciding factor in Thai politics so often as to make it the norm rather than the exception, to the point where among large segments of society it has come to be viewed as acceptable. In the end all talk comes to nothing, because nothing you mention above makes a bit of difference compared to the 600-lb. gorilla in the room, which is the persistent threat of violence in Thai politics. (I'm using "violence" as shorthand for coups, assassinations, thought-crime imprisonment, intimidation of intellectuals, etc.) 

This does not mean that there is no alternative to the most egregious forms of political violence in Thailand, and for a brief period at the beginning of this century it appeared that there was. That Thaksin's crowd have demonstrably been as bad in this regard as his opposition in the application of violence, at least locally if not nationally- exactly how was his treatment of the southern Muslims any better than the Democrats' treatment of the reds?- is beside the point. Respect for the results of elections is the only alternative to violence, and the 2006 coup was the beginning of a spate of rejections of that alternative, finally culminating in a stated goal of disenfranchisement of the electorate.

Having said that, I am probably no more hopeful than any of the cynics on this board about the direction things are taking. Thaksin's opposition has displayed an utter lack of intelligence, creativity and courage in dealing with the (faux) populist movement he has engendered, and I don't expect Thaksin to be the one to rise above his personal desire for power for the good of the nation. Both sides crow about reconciliation, but neither side has shown a desire for anything but a zero-sum game. Either Thaksin gets bumped off or he "wins," and either way I see no outcome but turmoil.

I'd be happy to be talked down off the ledge.  :bananaman:

----------


## Butterfly

> Thaksin's opposition has displayed an utter lack of intelligence, creativity and courage in dealing with the (faux) populist movement he has engendered, and I don't expect Thaksin to be the one to rise above his personal desire for power for the good of the nation. Both sides crow about reconciliation, but neither side has shown a desire for anything but a zero-sum game. Either Thaksin gets bumped off or he "wins," and either way I see no outcome but turmoil.


glad, we all share the same conclusion

we just need to wait now, and pray

----------


## robuzo

^I don't know about that, somebody else might have a convincing argument for a different possibility.

----------


## mao say dung

> Allying yourselves to one group over another is absurd since neither group is representative of anything very much beyond a complex but transient synthesis of personal aggrandisemnent, patronage and economic betterment at the expense of others not within its dedicated orbit.


Stating the obvious as if it were a superior insight is indicative of what exactly?

Anyone choosing to adopt a perspective saturated with extreme cynicism would say exactly the same of any and every "political system" in the world. The bottom line is that this is what politics is and always has been... everywhere.

Other perspectives are, of course, available and can be applied with validity.

Because so many of thegent's ilk choose to go the route of pretending that Thai politics are somehow unique, we are once again confronted with the kind of thing that Thais say when they want to avoid serious discussion. Funny that.

And stupid.

----------


## Butterfly

> somebody else might have a convincing argument for a different possibility.


well, the solution is both simple and complex

if a certain new head of the house was to be declared, the conflict would automatically end, but if another was to be confirmed, then the reds and yellow battle would be the least of our worries

the situation is explosive not because of "democratic" violations, but because the zoo keeper hasn't been seen doing his role in years, and the animals in their cage are getting nervous because they think nobody is going to change their liter and clean after them

----------


## robuzo

^I think it might be even worse than that by now but  :ssssh:

----------


## Butterfly

the real battle is the battle we don't see, and it has been brewing for years

Thaksin is just the "consequence", not the actual cause of the current situation, it's peanuts for the gallery

like any good shark, Thaksin can smell his victims weakness and the bleeding in the sea

----------


## Calgary

If not elections, for all their faults, as a purely practical matter, what alternatives do PADites who lose by them, and rail against them and Politicians, suggest?

----------


## robuzo

One might expect the embrace of a certain coup-leadin' general of Persian descent might have the effect of the animals looking through the dining room window and seeing the pigs drinking and smoking with the farmers, but that could be my cultural bias getting the better of me.

I'm sure he doesn't want the premiership anyway. He didn't want the coup, either, until he did.

----------


## noelbino

> *Thanksin will return if justice system is really fair: defence minister - The Nation
> *
> *Thaksin will return if justice system is really fair: defence minister*
> 
>           April 18, 2012  2:19 pm 
> *
> Defence Minister Gen Sukampol Suwannathat  said Wednesday that former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra would wait  until he is certain that he will receive fair trials in cases against  him before returning to Thailand.*
> 
> Sukampol said Thaksin wanted to return to Thailnad soon but he would  have to wait until it was certain that the justice system would be fair.
> ...


In whose mind is it twisted?
The average Thai doesn't, it's only the corrupt who do so.
Thaksin a gentleman???
Ask the 4,000 or so who were killed by him.

----------


## Mid

> The average Thai doesn't,


 :smiley laughing: 

pounds to peanuts the majority will tell you otherwise .

----------


## noelbino

Of course.
How silly of me.
The average Thai will tell you the justice system here is tilted in favour of the rich.
The infamous 2001 verdict is evidence of this.

----------


## DroversDog

> Of course.
> How silly of me.
> The average Thai will tell you the justice system here is tilted in favour of the rich.
> The infamous 2001 verdict is evidence of this.


Infamous in what way?  :yourdummy:

----------


## DroversDog

> Originally Posted by crippen
> 
> Quote T H  His main support comes from the North and Northeast provincial landed elite.    WTF??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Who pays for your oxygen? Maybe you should look in your mirror for scum. You will certainly find it if it is at all reflective.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## StrontiumDog

Thai-ASEAN News Network - Defense Minister Expresses Sympathy for Thaksin



Defense Minister Expresses Sympathy for Thaksin 

UPDATE : 18 April 2012                  

*The defense minister has expressed sympathy for former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, who wants to return to Thailand.

Defense Minister Sukumpol Suwanathat has expressed sympathy for former  prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, who has been living in exile abroad  for six years now. 
*

Sukumpol said that he would like to see Thaskin return to Thailand but exactly when is up to the rule of law.  

The minister said that the former premier's return will pose no risk to the national reconciliation process. 

Sukumpol also believes that national reconciliation is the country's answer and what most people want must be respected. 

He said the government could lose public support if the reconciliation process is poorly executed. 

However, he believes that if everyone works together, reconciliation is achievable. 

On the occasion of the Thai New Year, the defense minister wants to see peace in the South. 

He said that even though the security situation is improving, it still needs to be closely monitored.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Is Thaksin’s return to Thailand imminent? | Asia News – Politics, Media, Education | Asian Correspondent
*
*Is Thaksin’s return to Thailand imminent?*

_By Bangkok Pundit Apr 18, 2012 12:10AM UTC_ 

Seth Mydans in the _New York Times_ on Thaksin’s return:Just doing a little shopping, taking a well-earned rest. W*hat is everybody so worked up about?*
 …
 And whoops! Wherever he goes, reporters seem to catch up with him.  Almost every day, it seems, he is in the newspapers back home….

 At one point last week, he ran playfully from reporters in a Hong  Kong department store before turning to tell them, “I have no plan yet.”
 ….
*Mr. Thaksin has “every right to return,” they say; he  “shouldn’t come back at present”; it would be better for him to wait a  year.

*  If he does suddenly decide to return, what will he do? What will the generals do?The _Bangkok Post_ in an article (Thaksin: I will return to save the country soon) entitled “Thaksin: I will return to save the country soon”:*Former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra told his  red-shirted supporters that he would soon return to Thailand to help  settle the pressing problems of the country.*
 The declaration was made on Saturday afternoon…

Thaksin thanked the red-shirts for the party and told them to be patient and wait for his return.Then a _Reuters_ article on Thaksin’s hoping to return to Thailand by the end of the year after there is a general amnesty.

*BP*: Yes, the return of Thaksin has been featuring  prominently in the papers in the last few days after his trip to Laos  and Cambodia, but this is not new.  Seth’s article is from 2006, the _Bangkok Post_ article is from 2009, and the _Reuters_ article is from 2011. Of course, after the election in 2011, Thaksin then stated  that his return was not a major priority. Thaksin always talks about  wanting to come home. He sometimes gives timetables and at other times  just expresses a hope in returning. Thaksin’s latest statements are no  different. While they have raised the impression of Thaksin’s imminent return, Thaksin has said slightly different things on different days. Grant Peck in AP:Will he be celebrating the next Songkran at home?

 Thaksin – by far Thailand’s most divisive politician – *has  said in the past few days that his return will be “in the next three to  four months”, “not so long” and when “everything is stable”.**BP*: That AP article was on April 15, but then on April 16 the _Bangkok Post_ reports:“Sure, I want to return home very much,* but I want to come back when I can walk freely on the streets, not just sitting in a bulletproof car,*” he said.

 The former prime minister conceded he desired greatly to return to  his homeland but said he needed to wait for a better atmosphere.*BP*: That could be late this year or it could be next  – although would say if not by the end of next year then something must  have happened. Yingluck has declined to comment on the recent  statements by Thaksin, but last month said that Thaksin was not returning home soon. The measures are not in place for Thaksin to return home. The _Bangkok Post_:Meanwhile, Noppadon Pattama, Thaksin’s legal adviser,* said it would not be an impossibility for the ruling Pheu Thai Party to help Thaksin return home by the end of the year.*

 He insisted, though, that *Thaksin did not want to benefit  from any provision in the amended constitution. In his opinion, the best  way home for Thaksin is the reconciliation bill drafted by Deputy Prime  Minister Chalerm Yubamrung*.

 Mr Noppadon said the government deliberately put the reconciliation  bill to parliament so that representatives of the people could freely  debate the proposed legislation.

 “The bill will be thoroughly reviewed by the House committee. The  government would not use any dictatorial means to enact the law,” he  said_The Nation_:*The ruling Pheu Thai Party will not rush to pass an amnesty bill in order to avoid criticism*, Pheu Thai party-list MP Prompong Nopparit said yesterday

*Prompong said allegations the party would use its majority  voice in Parliament to single-handedly pass an amnesty bill is false and  it could be next year before such a bill was passed.**BP*: The amnesty option (which would by a law passed  through the legislature) seems to be to the fore while the pardon option  seems to have fallen by the wayside – see posts here and here about Thaksin’s inclusion on a collection pardon last year. As noted at the end of that post:*A pardon would keep Thaksin out of jail for now,  but it would allow the establishment to maintain control over Thaksin  [because of the other legal cases against him]. For now, Thaksin is  outside of Thailand so there is only so much control that they have over  Thaksin*. Hence, the pardon made sense as a compromise  position. Chalerm has raised the amnesty option although there is is no  timeframe for this. One cannot imagine that will go smoothly…The _Bangkok Post_:“A clever man like Thaksin will certainly play several  cards at a time. He will have prepared several methods. Once he sees it  is difficult to play the first two cards, he will have a third  alternative,” said Mr Prinya.

*According to Mr Prinya, the third alternative is Thaksin  seeking a royal pardon for the two-year jail term he received in the  Ratchadapisek land case.*

*If he obtained a royal pardon Thaksin would then return to  Thailand to face the judicial process in four other cases that are still  pending in the courts.*

 However, Thaksin might set the condition that if he is to be tried  for the four other cases, all investigations carried out by the Assets  Scrutiny Committee (ASC) would have to be nullified and re-investigated  by the National Anti-Corruption Commission or any group not hostile to  him, Mr Prinya said.

 The four other cases are the two- and three-digit lottery scheme, the  Exim Bank loan for the Myanmar government, alleged irregularities in  satellite concessions which allegedly favoured Shin Corp, and alleged  assets concealment while he was in political office.

 “This option could be the most acceptable to people who are  politically neutral. Nobody would get everything they wanted, none would  lose everything,” said the political analyst.*BP*: None of the options for Thaksin’s return seems  imminent. BP doesn’t see the inclusion of amnesty within the  constitution as being likely. It is either a collective pardon (after  the fuss last year it seems more difficult although as noted above it  gives the establishment control over Thaksin unlike the slate being  wiped clean with an amnesty) or an amnesty. The advantage of an amnesty  if the government wanted to string it out and get the process right by  following the KPI report would be a longer public discussion – say give  it 6 months – then get parliament to vote on it and perhaps a  referendum. This would be some form of a collective amnesty and while  Thaksin is still popular, his return is not necessarily popular so the  government may not want to proceed with a referendum. Nevertheless, that  would provide the cleanest process. After the Interior Minister stated  that public hearings would be a waste of time and just delay the  process,* Puea Thai spokesperson Promphong stating today that they would  not rush to pass the law. We will have to wait and see, but for now it  seems there is no rush and hence Thaksin’s return is not imminent.

 *This is not to say that substantatively public hearings would  achieve anything. They are more for show. “Fred W. Riggs might say that  public hearings in this country are just ritual, that is they give the  appearance that Thai people have a right to participate but in fact the  people’s input from the limited participation is not considered an issue  in the decision-making process. The public hearings in Thailand in fact  have been used for legitimizing the state decisions in that the public  officials can say that they have followed the process prescribed by the  law” (Page 5 of “Thai Public Hearings: Smokescreen or Ceremony?“). Nevertheless, going through the process will remove criticism over it being rushed and people not being consulted.

----------


## Butterfly

this a chinese mind game,

he is going to get killed eventually,

couldn't happen to a better person,

----------


## Thaihome

> Originally Posted by Thaihome
> 
> His main support comes from the North and Northeast provincial landed elite.
> 
> 
> Really?
> 
> 
> All those thousands of Red Shirts I have rubbed shoulders with, at all those rallies since the coupist rape of Thailand in 2006, were "_provincial landed elite_"?
> ...


 
Your lack of understanding of local provincial and district politics is showing badly again. Look at a 2011 election result map. The answers are there if you care to see it.
TH

----------


## Seekingasylum

> Who pays for your oxygen? Maybe you should look in your mirror for scum. You will certainly find it if it is at all reflective.


 
As a piece of invective this post fails on so many counts but nevertheless probably exemplifies the garbled, incoherent gibberish so symptomatic of the red dross as they struggle to articulate their mania. Rover's Fog is the prime exponent of this but is to be commended for the assiduity with which he applies himself to the advancement of stupidity.

----------


## mao say dung

> he applies himself to the advancement of stupidity.


With great success apparently... having drawn yet another "waff, waff, waff" of puerile pomposity from a fatuous fool.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*The timeline to a political tsunami
*
*The timeline to a political tsunami*

*Suthichai Yoon*
*The Nation*
Publication Date : 19-04-2012

You can never tell whether it's just a  bluff or not that former Thai premier Thaksin Shinawatra knows something  we don't about his own political future. For example, last week in Laos  he said was coming home in "three to four months".

In fact, in one of his recent spate of  interviews to the local press outside the country, Thaksin even  mentioned his birthday on July 26 as the "target date" for his return to  Thailand.

It wasn't made clear how that is to take  place. The former premier would only say that his close associates and  the red shirts were drawing up the plan and that preparations were being  made by staunch supporters who strongly believe he can contribute  greatly to the country with his presence back home.

Thaksin said his advocates want to give  him a "birthday present" by bringing him home. But then he went on to  qualify that with the statement that it's still fine if he doesn't  return to Thailand within this year. He said the country was on the path  to reconciliation. "I want to make sure all sides are happy," he told  the Bangkok Post from Hong Kong last week.

A few days after that, he was in Laos.  The sight of a large number of red-shirt supporters who went to wish him  a happy Songkran (Thailand's traditional new year, which fells between  Apr 13-15 this year) probably gave him enough of a morale boost to make  him say a few firmer words: "I am sure I will be home in three to four  months. There will be no more yellow shirts and red shirts. I am ready  for national reconciliation. I can't help it if anyone doesn't want to  be part of the reconciliation."

He probably forgot that he had said he wanted "all sides" to be happy with his possible move.

If "his side" wants him to return as a  free man, the "other side" has no problem with his coming home on one  very crucial condition: he will have to comply with the verdict of the  court and his two-year jail term and fight the other cases filed against  him.

That's what he is not ready to accept.  And that's why opposition leader Abhisit Vejjajiva says Thaksin's next  move will trigger two "political tsunamis" - one called "amnesty" and  the other "constitutional amendments".

First things first. Abhisit says that  after Songkran, the government could follow one of three scenarios:  organise public hearings on the proposed amnesty bill; produce the draft  amnesty bill; or make the first move but aim for the outcome in the  second.

"I guess the government will go for the  third option, which may be politically less controversial. In the end,  the so-called public hearings will be no more than just a ceremonial  thing. But if the government reads the King Prajadhipok Institute's  report carefully, it will have to be very careful with pursuing the  amnesty bill because that could spark a new round of national conflict.  If the ruling party rams through the bill with its majority vote in  Parliament and Thaksin comes home, the real question is: Can the  country's conflict be really resolved?"

Thaksin's statement about his return home  in the near future is necessarily based on his confidence that somehow,  the amnesty bill will pass through the House and Senate. The timeline  from now is crucial. The government could extend the current House  session to accommodate the move - or the ruling Pheu Thai Party could  call an extraordinary parliamentary session to force through the bill,  which is the only legitimate tool to allow him to come home as a free  man without facing any charges.

Or if it doesn't want to be seen to be  rushing the legislative process just for one man, the government could  wait until the annual Budget Bill is submitted to the House in June. The  next House session, otherwise, is not due until August.

Not everyone in Thaksin's inner circle is  convinced that the road back home is paved with roses. Yongyudh  Tiyapairaj, a former secretary to the former premier, and no doubt a  staunch supporter, had the following exchange with a Prachachat  reporter:

 Q: The procedure to get Thaksin home. How far has it gone as far as you are concerned?

A: First, I must ask: How is he going to  come back? I must ask those who like to say that they will get (premier)  Thaksin home. In fact, he is abroad, doing his business, which is much  more prosperous than that in Thailand. If they take him back home, maybe  he can stay only two days before having to leave again. Therefore, when  they talk about bringing Khun Thaksin home, what they really mean  perhaps is to liberate him from the bondage that has been caused by  injustice.

Q: What would be the decisive factor in determining whether he can come back or not?

A: The law lays down the proper procedure  and steps. He can return only when he is not guilty anymore. That's  when he gets amnesty. Or he can return when he is advised by his  supporters to do so, in which case a confrontation would follow, and  that's not sustainable. The best choice would be for him to return with  mercy and sympathy all around.

In other words, Thaksin was absolutely  right when he said he would come home when "all sides" were happy with  that scenario. He will have to work very hard to achieve that.

----------


## noelbino

> Originally Posted by noelbino
> 
> 
> Of course.
> How silly of me.
> The average Thai will tell you the justice system here is tilted in favour of the rich.
> The infamous 2001 verdict is evidence of this.
> 
> 
> Infamous in what way?


History is not your forte, I see. :deadhorsebig:

----------


## LooseBowels

The PAD yellow nutters supporters on here are clearly misunderstanding the difference between a lawful court based upon the institution of democracy, and an illegal junta appointed court . :Smile: 

When you find out just go back and examine the crap your'e putting up here.

You know who you are

But a nutter is a nutter.

You can't argue with that

----------


## Calgary

> _The PAD yellow nutters supporters on here are clearly misunderstanding the difference between a lawful court based upon the institution of democracy, and an illegal junta appointed court ._


_
_
Couldn't 'a said that better myself...Bang on!





> You can't argue with that       [/I]


Hard to argue with clear and irrefutable facts......but trust me...they will try.

But there isn't the enforced 'group-think' over here as elsewhere, so they are _'swimming upstream'_ over here.

----------


## CaptainNemo

> democracy


 :smiley laughing: 

you _can_ argue with that.

----------


## Calgary

> Originally Posted by LooseBowels
> 
> 
> democracy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you _can_ argue with that.


For all its' faults, and believe me, we all know there are many, electoral realities in Thailand are better than any alternative I can think of. One can just hope the process matures over time, and improves.

Practically speaking, what alternatives do you suggest. The PADite anti-politician mantra, and by extension their anti-electoral agenda, is all good and well, but are you aware of their alternative? I am and it _smells to high heaven_!

----------


## StrontiumDog

Anything to say about this LB or Calgary?

https://teakdoor.com/thailand-and-asi...k-payouts.html (Red lawyers seek to push back payouts: Victims say govt used them to win power)

----------


## Calgary

> Anything to say about this LB or Calgary?
> 
> https://teakdoor.com/thailand-and-asi...k-payouts.html (Red lawyers seek to push back payouts: Victims say govt used them to win power)


All UDD/Red Shirts wish them well. No-one knows the constraints placed upon the PTP by "holy men" and others. These initiatives may give the PTP the leverage to act. Somewhat similar to the roadblocks thrown up to the PTP about Charter reform before the New Year. Pressures from their electoral base got them "_off their ass_" after the New Year, in spite of the torpedoes.

These people have everyone's support, including strong support within the PTP. Hopefully it will get them off their derriere. 

The same can be said about the anti-coup taxpayers who are still incarcerated. That is also combustible, waiting for steam to build up enough to blow away coupist judicial holdovers.

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ But this is the lawyers, of the 111 banned Thai Rak Thai, so an extremely well connected and powerful group, seeking to delay compensation for 6 months....why would they do that?

As regards why there is a delay to the investigation of the majority of the deaths in April/May 2010, and in only cases where the military are known to have been involved are investigations proceeding (18 cases of the 90+), well Calgary, lets just say there is more to this than many seem to be aware of. 

You might be very surprised by the truth. Certainly you appear unaware of what really went on. Yes the army shot people, I saw it with my own eyes. But they weren't the only ones doing the shooting....

Collateral damage. Think about it. 

I also think you might want to stop and think about which 'side' is better in all this, as you have thrown you weight behind one cause. I don't see a better side. When you know more about the workings of things here, the stuff that doesn't appear in any media, for example, how the police really operate, well, you tend to be unable to support any side. 

Remember which side supports Thaksin....and from whence he hails. The Dem's had the army, Thaksin has the police. Believe me. If you can join the dots, a lot of what happened makes perfect sense, but you need to have the wit to do it. Most it seems don't. 

Here's something that might help.........

https://teakdoor.com/thailand-and-asi...police+corrupt (Ombudsman: Royal Thai Police found to be most corrupt)

----------


## Calgary

> Yes the army shot people, I saw it with my own eyes.


No you didn't.............. Forget the ad nauseum regurgitation of your after-the-fact photo's, but you didn't see the army shoot people. ............They did that, but you didn't see it.

BTW, did u see my revised signature. Tell your friends Whybother/Reasonableman.

----------


## baldrick

> a lawful court based upon the institution of democracy





> The infamous 2001 verdict is evidence of this.


no repeatable rationality at all from the cabal of the confused

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> Yes the army shot people, I saw it with my own eyes.
> 
> 
> No you didn't.............. Forget the ad nauseum regurgitation of your after-the-fact photo's, but you didn't see the army shoot people. ............They did that, but you didn't see it.
> 
> BTW, did u see my revised signature. Tell your friends Whybother/Reasonableman.


Yes I did.

Are you now telling me what I did and didn't see?

Have you completely lost your f*cking mind?

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> Yes the army shot people, I saw it with my own eyes.
> 
> 
> No you didn't.............. Forget the ad nauseum regurgitation of your after-the-fact photo's, but you didn't see the army shoot people. ............They did that, but you didn't see it.
> 
> BTW, did u see my revised signature. Tell your friends Whybother/Reasonableman.


Just love how you completely ignore all the other points raised. 

Your real personality and motives are revealed. You don't give a f*ck about the people who died. 

You don't care about how things really operate here. You have your views/opinions based upon surrounding yourself with people who agree with you. You are incapable of accepting alternatives. Really, you are a classic case, fraught with your own issues that have haunted you from childhood that manifest themselves in your current attitudes. A product of your environment, and you exist unaware of that fact. 

I would bet a large chunk of change that you don't even know why you are the way you are. Highly dysfunctional. Total lack of insight. However, you feel some sense of personal justification wandering around the internet forums spreading your distorted gospel, fed to you by others, which you unquestioningly swallow, almost in some bizarre sadomasochistic manner (I just bet you don't understand that at all). And ignoring those who present alternatives. You have some interesting personality disorders....

I'd love to meet you. I'd have you worked out in seconds. I think I already do for the most part....just a few gaps....easily sorted. 

So I'll say it again....

Justice for those who died. What of it? Are you saying you don't care? You have chowed down on the rancid crap fed to you so much you have lost touch with a most basic sense of humanity? Loss, grief, anger, hurt, pain.... People died. What are the red shirts going to do about it? 

There needs to be justice. People were murdered. People lost loved ones. Their loss was for what? Do you have loved ones Calgary (I mean other than Thaksin)? Do you know what it feels like to lose those who you love? I do. I don't f*cking forget it either. Every day it hurts. Every day I miss them. Every day I feel sad. Do you care about the red shirts and normal people who lost loved ones? Where is the justice? 

Oh yeah, paid off with money and then 'reconciliation' for the umpteenth time in this countries history....which has never solved anything before and wont again. The sickest joke of all. Once again....old habits die hard, right. Well it worked before...(have you seen just how much reconciliation is taking place? None is the answer...so what is it happening for? Oh yeah, for Thaksin.....)

Or is the end game your only concern. That your master will be restored? A person who doesn't care for you. In a country that isn't your own and in which you have no stake or say whatsoever. Is that what you seek? 

Or is that the great amorphous mass you describe as 'elite' will somehow fall and you will feel somehow victorious, justified, correct? However, little do you realise you have been fed a lie. There is no better here. Just different names and faces. You are yet another victim...and there are so many.......You support the 'elite' against the 'elite' and you and your 'friends' are the 'army' that puts pressure on one group of 'elite' so that the other group of 'elite' can get the best deal for themselves. Don't believe it? Up to you. You will see....

You really are a champion for 'democracy' in a country where there isn't any real democracy and never has been or is likely to be for a very long time. Keep fighting the good fight mate. Keep fighting the imagined enemies in your mind. Keep fighting the (mis)perceived 'other side'. One day you will realise how you have been utterly butt-f*cked. But I just bet you wont be posting on forums when you do.......oh the huge sense of embarrassment, how could you have been so wrong about so much? I guess you could always change your user name.....

----------


## Gerbil

> Do you have loved ones Calgary (I mean other than Thaksin)?


Yes. His 'Hero', Arseman.

----------


## robuzo

So, what is the argument here? Is the Thai judiciary corrupt? Did Thaksin get fair representation when tried in absentia? Could the judges have been intimated or bought in that case? Could they have been intimidated/bought if Thaksin had been tried while still in power?

Does anybody really think, despite what BKK Spot or Notion editorials have to say, that Thaksin is afraid of returning because he is afraid of doing time?

----------


## Thaihome

> ...Does anybody really think, despite what BKK Spot or Notion editorials have to say, that Thaksin is afraid of returning because he is afraid of doing time?


 
I agree, he is not afraid of doing any time, at 62 or something now, he could put off doing any time for the rest of his life. What he is afraid of is the details of the other 4 cases coming out in open court and having to fight them for the rest of his life.

Nor does he want a full and open investigation into the 2010 protests. 

TH

----------


## robuzo

Yeah, well, I doubt he is afraid of endless court cases, too. If he were there would have been no reason to oust him with a coup. 

As to "Nor does he want a full and open investigation into the 2010 protests." Really? How about an investigation into the 2010 massacre? It strikes me that a deal is being struck to sweep the whole thing under the rug, going back to the coup and after, including the airport siege. We'll never see the light of day on the facts of the latter, let alone what really happened in May 2010, except for a lot of people dying for another election.

I can think of a list of characters it would be fascinating to put on the witness stand with full immunity and possibly the injection of some sort magical truth serum, the stories Thaksin, Sondhi, Sonthi, Sutep, Mark, Prem, et al could tell. Not much sunshine for a tropical country.

----------


## baldrick

> Nor does he want a full and open investigation into the 2010 protests.


this is a point many miss - how involved was he really(or could be proven) with his little generals army that could be accused of terrorism/treason

----------


## Butterfly

> You don't care about how things really operate here. You have your views/opinions based upon surrounding yourself with people who agree with you. You are incapable of accepting alternatives.


he is a Right Wing Authoritarian, you know how they think and act. See that study I sent you a PM about. They describe his case perfectly. He is basically a blind nutter, like most American nut jobs who portrait themselves as conservative patriots. Being far from home, probably found a new cause here that fits such a fascist and narrow political agenda.




> Have you completely lost your f*cking mind?


he never had one in the first place, so how could he lost it ?

----------


## sabang

Thaksin is returning, little question about that- and there are very few ostriches left with their head in the sand, albeit what few there are (PAD) receive inordinate publicity. The politically and judicially biased political suspensions end soon to. The real question is- so what? In many ways it's back to normality- the issues of Judicial corruption & independence, corruption in general, and Military loyalty to the legitimate government of the day still remain. T isn't the Messiah, and I reckon the inordinate amount of attention lavished on him (from both sides) will incrementally fade after his return. 

The last 5 years has really only been useful in reinforcing the peoples Right of Suffrage and national Rule of Law, and at great cost to the nation- but that is an important reinforcement nevertheless. And it is good to see the back of the utterly inept and corrupt governments appointed on the back of the Coup, with their various 'favors owed' and total neglect of the primary interests of the nation. The "loyal opposition" can say what it wants, but the fact remains the last time this nation was really doing well was under Thaksin, in a legitimately appointed government. The staged lead up, military Coup, and aftermath was a disaster for Thailand, probably amounting to something like a lost decade in the larger scheme of things. But the 'normality' Thailand returns to is one of squabbling, corrupt factions putting their own perceived selfish interests first- with a lavish dose of petulant SinoThai face thrown in for good measure.

Perversely, one potential benefit of Thaksins return from exile might be an opportunity for the clownish Democrat party to actually reform itself in some meaningful way, and present a credible democratic alternative to the nation outside of Bangkok sino's and southern fiefdoms. But perhaps I am underestimating their petulance and self defeating arrogance.

----------


## Butterfly

> albeit what few there are (PAD) receive inordinate publicity.


you are starting to sound like Calgary  :mid:

----------


## sabang

Yes, of course the Bangkok sinoThai 'Press' does not exaggerate the importance or relevance of the embittered PAD remnants at all BF.
_snigger chortle chuckle_.

----------


## Butterfly

> but the fact remains the last time this nation was really doing well was under Thaksin, in a legitimately appointed government.


again, that link is weak, you are implying that a "legitimate" government is linked to economic prosperity. You can't make that call seriously just because it happened empirically.

Also on the democratic political front, the Thaksin years were a complete disaster, you seem to conveniently forget that, or maybe you weren't there or you were too drunk to remember between your drinking binge trips to Bangkok after a hard week in HK.




> a lost decade in the larger scheme of things


not economically, but yes politically it was. It started in 2001 btw, not 2006.




> an opportunity for the clownish Democrat party to actually reform itself in some meaningful way,


it will never happen, it's not a political party. The other political parties in Thailand seem to like being part of a monopoly or consortium, very Chinese like thinking, therefore they tend to gather together and form bigger parties with more leverage. TRT rings a bell ?

----------


## sabang

> you are implying that a "legitimate" government is linked to economic prosperity


The point I am making is more of a 'negative' point really- namely an _illegitimate_ government is linked to economic stagnation and fundamental neglect of the national interest. Whatever the appoint Abhi government may have been capable of is basically a moot point- because they were pretty much incapable of doing anything (except pick fights with their neighbours and accelerate corruption and military spending) because of those interests and factions they were in troth to.

Looked at dispassionately, the 'lost decade' could have been far worse. Probably the main things 'lost' were FDI, improvement in basic living standards (hence development of consumer economy), and a near total neglect of Thailands educational requirements as a developing nation. Real estate, the THB & SET haven't done too badly- but they could, should and would have done better sans Coup.

----------


## Butterfly

> namely an illegitimate government is linked to economic stagnation and fundamental neglect of the national interest.


again speculation, economies are not run by government, but private businesses. There was nothing except the coup of 1 year and the economic crisis (you forgot that one I guess) that stopped such strong growth. Economic stagnation had nothing to do with the illegitimate government, and you can't make that link in a credible economic logic. 

For national interest and long term strategic planning, yes, it's true, the Dems and the Coup didn't help at all, it just stopped any long term positive effect that a capable government could have achieved. But that capable government could have been as much illegitimate as legitimate, so again your argument doesn't hold. Election  or legitimate government doesn't guarantee a capable government.




> Whatever the appoint Abhi government may have been capable of is basically a moot point- because they were pretty much incapable of doing anything


it was hard for them to do anything when they had to deal with so many enemies on so many fronts. Since Thaksin wanted a monopoly on populist ideas, he did everything to disturb the LEGITIMATE Democrat government from governing. If that's not FASCISM at play, then I don't know what is. Basically, the Dems found themselves in a snake pit with too many fascist groups to deal with. A military government would have been a better option at that stage.




> Real estate, the THB & SET haven't done too badly- but they could, should and would have done better sans Coup.


again, assumptions and a call you can't make seriously. Forget the SET or properties, exporting companies since 2006 have been booming exponentially. It's not something you see in News or the Bangkok Post but that you see as a direct investor or when you meet CEOs and CFOs to discuss their operations future. It has never been better for them, until the flood that is. Things might never be the same now, and most are afraid of another political fallout with silly Thaksin.

----------


## robuzo

Look at other Asian countries that have a democracy in name with "legitimate" governments headed by parties with virtually no viable political opposition. The fact that the political system didn't really function legitimately was no bar to at least an initial long period of economic prosperity. This is because those countries also instituted a ministerial system that was headed by at least nominally competent technocrats, which is the realm (i.e., the professional as opposed to the representative wing of government) where the intellectual "elites" from the best schools in those countries in those countries head after graduation. Thailand hasn't managed to create either the competent technocrat wing of government or the educational/research infrastructure that supports it. The reasons why it hasn't should be obvious. Thailand's economic success will remain limited, unbalanced (in terms of wealth distribution) and for the most part superficial and lacking a solid foundation until this issue is addressed, and it won't be because the country is run by aristocrats and asset farmers who don't really give a damn.

----------


## Butterfly

> The reasons why it hasn't should be obvious. Thailand's economic success will remain limited, unbalanced (in terms of wealth distribution) and for the most part superficial and lacking a solid foundation until this issue is addressed,


not entirely correct, it's actually a strength for some of these failures you describe, it's definitely not superficial, but yes very unbalanced, which is good when you are all about greed. The ministry void create opportunities for Thai businesses to get away with many things and grow exponentially. In a typical Asian "planned" economy, like Sing or even Malaysia, the governing technocrats would put a stop to such practice and businesses would suffer, but society would benefit.

A typical example is the minimum wage. Should have happened progressively years ago, but not here. Now we have this silly adjustment that is going to fuck everybody even though the increase is legitimate and necessary.

so to answer your question or you weak link, economic prosperity is directly linked to a laissez faire approach to the economy, a void in technocrats and capable ministries, not the other way around. This often leads to catastrophic consequences for society though, with soaring social costs, but who cares since we are focusing here on the argument of economic prosperity which is in majority driven by private businesses, not government.

----------


## Scaramanga

Taksin says “NO” to any prosecution of the people that murdered pro-democracy demonstrators.

In an interview with Jom Petpradab in Cambodia on 17th April, Taksin Shinawat confirmed that “reconciliation” means that “those who killed 91 people do not have to go to jail”. You can see him saying this in the 7th minute of the video below.




It looks like a deal has been struck

----------


## Butterfly

indeed, but nobody believes he will hold his word, so killing him might be the only option for the military eventually

----------


## StrontiumDog

> T
> 
> It looks like a deal has been struck


Wow, you're quick. 

You appear to have only just realised this.

----------


## Scaramanga

SD you are an Idiot

I knew about the speculation but there was no concrete evidence

----------


## robuzo

As I've said for years, Squareface would make a swell martyr. Nothing washes away sins like dying for the cause. Go ahead, Ocha-chan, make my day.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> SD you are an Idiot
> 
> I knew about the speculation but there was no concrete evidence


Ah, so Thaksin saying something is "concrete evidence"? 

 :rofl: 

For real? 

But when other people say it...it isn't concrete....?

----------


## Scaramanga

As I said SD, you are an Idiot, and I bet you cant understand a word he says

----------


## Butterfly

Scaramanga losing it  :rofl:

----------


## baldrick

> and I bet you cant understand a word he says


because his command of english is atrocious

----------


## LooseBowels

Khun Taksin is correct to say no jail for the perpitrators of the dispicable crime of slaying 90 innocent protestors with sniper head shots.

Capital punishment, but I would give them the option of life in the hilton, with a quota of 10 bummings a day. :Smile: 

You can't argue with that

----------


## robuzo

> Originally Posted by Scaramanga
> 
> and I bet you cant understand a word he says
> 
> 
> because his command of english is atrocious


Doesn't stop him trying to speak it, though. I don't think he insists on speaking in English with foreign journos, etc., out of a sense of pride, nor because he is unaware; rather, I think it could be the opposite. I think it could stem from his warped (from a Western perspective) sense of power- in Asian hierarchies, it is up to the subordinate (from Thaksin's point of view, anyone listening) to try to figure out what the superior is saying, and not the duty of the superior to be clear. The lack of clarity also plays to his advantage because it improves his ability to deny what he said earlier- "Oh, no, you misinterpreted me." In other words, Thaksin's insistence on speaking English is just another little "Fvck you" to anyone trying to call on him to account for himself. He doesn't give a damn if anyone understands him; up to you to try to figure out what he is saying. The structure of the Thai language- like other Asian languages with, for example, forms of speech that depend on one's place in the social hierarchy, looseness with/omission of subjects and subject pronouns- lends itself to opacity, but when those routes to double-talk and prevarication are unavailable gibberish can work just as well as when the goal is opacity.

----------


## Butterfly

It's funny to see that Abhisit is against the amnesty and wants a full investigation and then an amnesty eventually, and like certain reds and the victims, he wants to know the truth and wants the full investigation to continue first before anything is forgiven.

but surprise surprise, Thaksin and friends don't want any of that, and just want to go straight to an amnesty without clarification of anything.

are they afraid of the truth ? of course they are, it would reveal a few embarrassing details, and expose Thaksin as a total liar, something for those who can think independently already know.

----------


## Butterfly

> it is up to the subordinate (from Thaksin's point of view, anyone listening) to try to figure out what the superior is saying, and not the duty of the superior to be clear. The lack of clarity also plays to his advantage because it improves his ability to deny what he said earlier- "Oh, no, you misinterpreted me." In other words, Thaksin's insistence on speaking English is just another little "Fvck you" to anyone trying to call on him to account for himself. He doesn't give a damn if anyone understands him; up to you to try to figure out what he is saying.


indeed, those manipulative hiso like to speak in mysterious ways, it gives them more importance and if they say something stupid, like they usually do, they can always blame the listener for not understanding his superior logic.

cute little creatures, aren't they ?

----------


## Bobcock

Most chess players use their pawns sacrificially as well. Thaksin in doesn't give a shit about those who died, after all they served his purpose and played their parts in his play oh so well. From pawn to bargaining chip.

----------


## Butterfly

^ it has been obvious for quite a few, and after all this is politics, so to be expected

not sure why the pawns were so gullible in the first place,

oh wait, that's because they were never interested in politics in the first place, got drawn into it, played, sacrificed and now what ?

low turnout in election might be the next thing as they start to realize their real fate or their real role. 

Indeed, Bangkok politics was never for them.

----------


## sabang

> low turnout in election might be the next thing


Your clamouring fervour is pathetic to behold.  :rofl:

----------


## Butterfly

^ you want to bet ?  :mid: 

would put your whole "democracy" delusional logic into question, wouldn't it ?  :mid:

----------


## sabang

You want to lose another bet? One born every minute.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Butterfly

^ another ? How many have I done on that topic ?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

delusional reds and peasants is a good thing, they will either get smarter from it, or go back to sleep. Either way, a good outcome.

----------


## Bobcock

The Recent bi election staggered to a pathetic 35% turnout.....

----------


## Butterfly

^ indeed, could show a disinterest of a certain electorate for voting

Democrats didn't expect to win at all, just improved their numbers there, so they were equally shocked by the results

Abhisit brought an interesting point, he says that their electorate base is growing, but it's taking time and it's a long term plan. They went from 7m votes to 11m votes, so their strategy is working, yet slowly. In contrast, the flashy billionaire is conducting a blitz marketing campaign with all kind of promotions that only poor souls can't resist.

He thinks they will win the election eventually and that the party has changed itself dramatically in the last 5 years under his command. The results doesn't show now because the transformation is a big and difficult one.

----------


## robuzo

> Most chess players use their pawns sacrificially as well. Thaksin in doesn't give a shit about those who died, after all they served his purpose and played their parts in his play oh so well. From pawn to bargaining chip.


They sacrificed for the greater good, perhaps master will throw the survivors another bone. It's easy to understand how some of them might rationalize their support, considering that no other important political figure in about 65 years has thought of them at all. He will lose some support, but can probably continue to be a more or less successful demagogue (unless he gets dead). Given the foundation the elites had lain for "democracy" in Thailand it is hardly a surprise that somebody like Thaksin came along.

----------


## Butterfly

> Given the foundation the elites had lain for "democracy" in Thailand it is hardly a surprise that somebody like Thaksin came along.


that's another good point, I think the fragile democracy with the weak constitution of 1997 was a dream come true for sociopath and social dominators like Thaksin. If it wasn't him, it would have been someone else, possibly worse.

Another reason why the 1997 constitution shouldn't be re-instated, too weak and too open for such a nascent democracy.

----------


## Calgary

Keep perspective on that last by-election in Pathum Thani.

The PTP pissed the UDD/Red Shirts off, they boycotted the election and the PTP lost.

Next time the PTP will pay attention. Perhaps they already are in Chiang Mai.

I understand the beginning of perhaps something new, in Chiang Mai. There is also a by-election pending, but instead of the PTP designating its' candidate, they are going through a nominating contest. 

A departure from the norm, and a good one. I think it may be a bit of fall-out from the recent Pathum Thani thing. It certainly is a smart move on the PTP's part. 

This way the UDD/Red Shirts cannot question the choice of candidate, if they participated in the choosing.

A similar issue is simmering in Chiang Rai. There is disagreement between the PTP/Thaksin and the UDD/Red Shirts about who should run for the local Obitaw. The PTP/Thaksin side wishes to appoint someone via previous approaches, the wife of somebody or other with Yongyuth connections. The UDD/Red Shirts object, considering this person's lack of quals. in their opinion. 

These type of pressures will hopefully usher in a more merit-oriented way of nominating candidates for this or that. The PTP is beginning to discover previous modus operandi doesn't fly when their electoral base is semi-independent, yet one on which they depend, as Pathum Thani clearly demonstrated.

A merit-based selection system of nominating candidates is vastly superior and the UDD/Red Shirts seem to be forcing it upon the PTP.

If the PTP expects the UDD/Red Shirts to vote for its' candidate, they are being forced into involving them in the selection of that candidate to start with. The nomination process in Chiang Mai is a manifestation of that revised MO.

----------


## Bobcock

I like reading your stuff when you keep to the issue rather than the LB like smugness and insults

----------


## Calgary

> I like reading your stuff when you keep to the issue rather than the LB like smugness and insults


Thx. BC, but I challenge media propaganda when I see it..... That is also an issue, and I cannot stomach giving them unchallenged agenda propagation freedom. 

Left unchallenged, it becomes reality. ......When Farangs see nothing else but the propaganda stuff of the Post and Nation, they have every right to accept that as factual, unless they are faced with alternatives. ......Some of these alternatives may appear petty, but cumulatively, the petty misrepresentations of the Post and Nation distort reality................. Sometimes it is difficult to remain on the high ground, when challenging sewer propaganda.

I do my best to counter it. .......LB's vociforous reactions give pause to those who might otherwise accept that garbage as gospel, and I can't argue with that .............I saw the effects of this on another discussion Board. Not only is the propaganda accepted as gospel, it is systematically reinforced. 

I don't like to see that done to my fellow Farangs, and will counter it whenever I can. Up to them if they accept those alternatives....at least they receive alternatives.

----------


## Bobcock

And you counter it well when you provide balanced posts, you've made me think about a few things in the past when you behave like that.

It's the silliness referring to anyone who disagrees to whatever degree as a PAD nutter or just being insulting where any real message you have gets lost. I wouldn't even notice whether LB has a decent message because I switch off from reading his juvenile shite.

Keep on in your current mood, it serves you better.

----------


## StrontiumDog

It's a hard road home for Thaksin - The Nation

burning issue

*It's a hard road home for Thaksin*

         Piyanart Srivalo
Piyanart@nationgroup.com April 26, 2012  1:00 am 

*It is widely known that the ultimate goal of  the ruling Pheu Thai Party's reconciliation drive is to bring fugitive  ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra home scot-free. But it appears that the  road to his return is not strewn with rose petals. While Prime Minister  Yingluck Shinawatra is trying hard to restore reconciliation in the  country, she should not forget that her core supporters could turn  against her.*

Some groups within the red-shirt movement do not seem happy about the  ruling party's latest strategy, especially the meeting between Yingluck  and some of her Cabinet members and Privy Council President Prem  Tinsulanonda at his residence today.

They warned the government of a backlash from trying to appease the  elite while disappointing its red-shirt supporters. They insisted that  the government should bring the wrongdoers in the deaths of the 91  victims of the crackdown in April-May 2010 to justice.

The red-shirt supporters were also dismayed when they heard several of  their leaders urging them to forgive and forget in exchange for the  country's future or for the sake of the country. The red supporters felt  that the victims, who were sacrificed for the ruling party, were  abandoned while the leaders are now rewarded with ministerial posts.

However, Thaksin is aware of that. He tried to boost the popularity of  the government among the red shirts during the Songkran holiday. He  tried to show sympathy for his supporters after the government was  accused of deserting the red-shirt supporters. But it did not work.

Despite realising that the meeting with Prem could lead to a big and  severe wound in the future, Yingluck and her party pushed hard for  reconciliation and suggested several options

First, Foreign Minister Surapong Tovichakchaikul, who is close to  Thaksin, said he tried to raise the reconciliation issue at the Cabinet  meeting on Tuesday. But he may have just wanted to test the waters, as  in the end, he did not propose it for consideration. He earlier proposed  to the government to heed suggestions from the Truth for Reconciliation  Commission of Thailand. But its chairman Kanit na Nakorn rejected the  idea as he did not want to be manipulated as a political tool for Pheu  Thai.

Second, another close aide of Thaksin, Noppadon Pattama, suggested  issuing a reconciliation bill sponsored by small political parties or  civic groups or the people, not the one sponsored by the ruling Pheu  Thai, in order to avoid criticism over a conflict of interest.  Noppadon's suggestion seems to be the most welcome as Chart Thai  Pattana, a coalition partner, supported the idea.

Third, Snoh Thienthong, a Pheu Thai key figure and party-list MP,  voiced support for a reconciliation bill to bring Thaksin home on  condition that Thaksin will not ask for the return of his seized Bt46  billion. But critics believe it would not be possible, as Thaksin  definitely wants his money back.

Last, Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yoobamrung, who was the first  person in Pheu Thai to suggest a draft for reconciliation, suggested  that the Pheu Thai Party sponsor the bill but his proposal was ignored  by his party colleagues. His idea is likely to fizzle out, as the PM has  repeatedly made it clear that she will leave the issue to the  legislature.

However, the final say on which proposal will be used could not be made  by anyone else than the only man who will benefit from the  reconciliation bill - Thaksin.

The reason why Thaksin and his sister's government are pushing so hard  for reconciliation is because they think the government now has solid  stability while the resistance is so weak.

But one thing Thaksin, Yingluck and her government members should be  well aware of is that a pardon for Thaksin is a very sensitive issue.  Not only does the public closely follow the issue but also the military,  which has kept a keen eye on it.

----------


## Butterfly

> The red-shirt supporters were also dismayed when they heard several of their leaders urging them to forgive and forget in exchange for the country's future or for the sake of the country. The red supporters felt that the victims, who were sacrificed for the ruling party, were abandoned while the leaders are now rewarded with ministerial posts.


we told you so fuckers, but you were too dumb to listen

----------


## Calgary

> It is widely known that the ultimate goal of  the ruling Pheu Thai Party's reconciliation drive is to bring fugitive  ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra home scot-free.


No its' not..........It is widely known that this is Amart agenda, easily identified as such by the characterization of their political enemy as a 'fugitive', instead of a political exile. 

Amart agenda is not the agenda of those who voted in an election heavily associated with Thaksin.




> While Prime Minister  Yingluck Shinawatra is trying hard to restore reconciliation in the  country, she should not forget that her core supporters could turn  against her.


Don't worry about it....... Wont happen...... Wishfull thinking wont even make it happen.




> Some groups within the red-shirt movement do not seem happy about the  ruling party's latest strategy, especially the meeting between Yingluck  and some of her Cabinet members and Privy Council President Prem  Tinsulanonda at his residence today.


Yeah, The UDD/Red Shirts are not the PTP, and have a will of their own. The meeting referenced above was heavily 'editted and circumscribed" as a result.

Also, the UDD/Red Shirts weren't happy with the PTP over the stuff that happened in Pathum Thani, resulting in a subsequent loss by the PTP in a by-election. It drove home the point that the PTP is nothing without the UDD/Red Shirt support......and they need occasional reminding of that fact. The PTP was taken to the woodshed by the UDD/Red Shirts in Pathum Thani via its voter boycott.




> But one thing Thaksin, Yingluck and her government members should be  well aware of is that a pardon for Thaksin is a very sensitive issue.  Not only does the public closely follow the issue but also the military,  which has kept a keen eye on it.


The above is true, except the part about the 'Public". The amart agenda is not the agenda of the Public, as much as they try to suggest it, by stating it as a commonly accepted fact. The election is proof enough of that.
>
<
All the other stuff about trying to characterize internal discussions of alternatives as somehow being divisive and driving wedges between the PTP and UDD/Red Shirts is just so much wishful and hopeful thinking.

The UDD/Red Shirt are keenly aware of what Ms. Y. and company can do now, and what needs to be delayed for the future. The power of this Govt. has definite limits in spite of its electoral mandate. This is evidenced by the Govts. careful tracking of the Nitirat Proposals. The UDD/Red Shirts are patient in this regard, as a way of protecting Ms. Y. and company.

----------


## Mr Lick

> Originally Posted by The Nation -  It is widely known that the ultimate goal of the ruling Pheu Thai Party's reconciliation drive is to bring fugitive ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra home scot-free.
> 
>  No its' not..........It is widely known that this is Amart agenda, easily identified as such by the characterization of their political enemy as a 'fugitive', instead of a political exile.


Have you been drinking all day?  :Smile:

----------


## Butterfly

> their political enemy as a 'fugitive', instead of a political exile.


how do you call jumping sentence then ?

----------


## BKKBoet

^ On that subject...

*Court upholds red radio host sentence* 





 The Appeals Court on Thursday upheld the lower  court's vedict sentencing a red-shirt leader and radio show host to one  year and four months in jail, suspended for two years, for inciting the  torching of the city hall in Ubon Ratchathani province on May 19, 2010.
 The provincial court on Sept 13, 2011 sentenced Ubonkan Amornsin, a  show host of a community radio station, to two years and eight months in  jail for inciting her listeners to set fire to the city hall.
 The jail sentence was halved to one year and four months, suspended for two years, because she confessed.
 The prosecution on Jan 5 this year appealed against the suspension.
 The Region 3 Appeal Court today upheld the original verdict. 



Source : Court upholds red radio host sentence | Bangkok Post: breakingnews


Looks like this is one unlucky person getting sentenced while the amnesty moves are afoot. Lets hope they now peruse the case against those who incited the torching of Bangkok. 

We wouldn't want anyone accused of double standards now would we?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## sabang

> how do you call jumping sentence then ?


From a kangaroo court? Hopping.

----------


## Butterfly

^  :rofl:

----------


## Mid

> Next time the PTP will pay attention. Perhaps they already are in Chiang Mai.  I understand the beginning of perhaps something new, in Chiang Mai. There is also a by-election pending, but instead of the PTP designating its' candidate, they are going through a nominating contest.  A departure from the norm, and a good one. I think it may be a bit of fall-out from the recent Pathum Thani thing. It certainly is a smart move on the PTP's part.


 *Red shirts snub Pheu Thai as northern by-elections loom*
26/04/2012

 Pheu Thai candidates are facing new competition  in Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai by-elections as the party's red shirt  allies ignore appointed candidates and insist on fielding their own  people.

 In Chiang Mai, red shirt supporters have demanded "primary voting" to  select a candidate for the Pheu Thai Party to run in a by-election in  Constituency 3, that covers San Kamphaeng, Mae On and Doi Saket  districts, Dapphichit Tamun, coordinator for the United Front for  Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) in Chiang Mai, said yesterday.

 The UDD Chiang Mai has agreed with local leaders in the three  districts to have constituents vote for a candidate of their choice and  nominate them for the party's consideration rather than to let it "pick a  candidate whom people don't love or have faith in," Mr Dapphichit said.

 Their move comes after the defeat of Pheu Thai candidate Somchai  Rangsiwatanasak to Democrat candidate Kiatisak Songsaeng in a  by-election in Pathum Thani last Saturday. The unsuccessful candidate  has been criticised for not helping people enough during their struggle  against heavy flooding in the province last year.

 The UDD Chiang Mai will meet Pheu Thai key members this Saturday to  discuss the idea of primary voting. The Election Commission has set June  2 as the by-election date to find a replacement for former Pheu Thai MP  Chinnicha Wongsawat, who was disqualified for false asset and  liabilities declarations.

 For the election of the chairman of the Chiang Rai provincial  administration organisation (PAO) on May 27, two factions of the UDD in  Chiang Rai have decided to separately send their own candidates to  compete with a Pheu Thai candidate.

 Phanida Manotham, of the Tawan Daeng for economic stimulus faction,  and former Pheu Thai MP Sarit Uengaphinan, supported by the Siang  Prachachon for democracy faction, will compete against the wife of  former House speaker Yongyuth Tiyaphairat, Salakjit, supported by the  Pheu Thai Party and some red shirt supporters.

 Siang Prachachon leader Somchai Saengthong said his group backed Mr  Sarit because he has continuously helped the group in past political  rallies.
 In contrast, he claimed: "All seven Pheu Thai MPs for Chiang Rai have rarely heeded red shirt people".

 The competition between the party and its allies worries Chiranan  Chanthawong, leader of the June 24 Democracy faction. They will only  snatch votes from one another and let the other candidate and former PAO  head Rattana Chongsutthanamani gain an advantage, she said.

bangkokpost.com

----------


## LooseBowels

Devastating blow to the PAD yellow nutter ( and their falang dope supporters)ethnic cleansing ideology :Smile: 

Remember it, No vote for the "Isaan peasants"

Well, not only has the vote of the "Isaan peasants" kicked out the illegal MAD  PAD proxy government, here comes the "Isaan peasant MP's"

You can't argue with that

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ I think you might be mentally ill LB 

Really, you are becoming more and more deluded by the day.

----------


## Calgary

> ^ I think you might be mentally ill LB 
> 
> Really, you are becoming more and more deluded by the day.


Coming from Whybother and Reasonable man, that is a compliment.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> 
> ^ I think you might be mentally ill LB 
> 
> Really, you are becoming more and more deluded by the day.
> 
> 
> Coming from Whybother and Reasonable man, that is a compliment.


No, it's not, trust me. 

But then again, seeing as you didn't even know who the People's Information Centre were, anything you say or give an opinion on is highly likely to be total crap. 

I mean, c'mon Calgary. The number one organisation overseeing the red shirts in prison, who count them, who monitor them, who stand up for their rights. And you didn't know about it at all? And you claimed to have asked other red shirts about it too? You are just full of shit. 

You and LB have many things in common. You are both clueless trolls for starters.

----------


## BKKBoet

^ You can't argue with that!

----------


## Bobcock

Funny, when you type it I don't imagine the same snivelling voice in my head, blowing snot bubbles as he gets excited at having used the same troll line for the 500th time.....

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Thaksin seen as a victim, lawyer says | Bangkok Post: news
*
*Thaksin seen as a victim, lawyer says*
Published: 28/04/2012 at 03:03 AMNewspaper section: News
 Ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra is  welcomed around the world, his legal adviser says, because he is  recognised as a political victim by the international community.

 Noppadon Pattama was speaking about Thaksin's plan to travel to the  United Kingdom to watch a football match, despite the country barring  him after his 2008 conviction in Thailand for corruption offences.

 But Mr Noppadon cited Thaksin's recent unhindered travels to other  world powers as proof that those countries recognised that Thaksin's  conviction was politically based.

 He said Britain, Germany, France, Japan and China had all granted  visas to Thaksin, although the British government has made no statement  to confirm it had lifted its restriction on Thaksin entering Britain.

 Nevertheless, Thaksin will fly in to England on Monday to watch a  football match between Manchester City, which he once owned, and  Manchester United.

 It will be Thaksin's first trip there since late 2008, when  authorities shut the door on him after Thailand's Supreme Court's  Criminal Division for Holders of Political Positions ruled him guilty in  the Ratchadaphisek land purchase case.

 Some foreign media also report that the UK government has frozen  about US$4.2 billion (130 billion baht) in assets believed to belong to  Thaksin after it revoked his visa in November 2008.

 Mr Noppadon denied the real aim of Thaksin's UK visit is to negotiate  for the release of the assets, saying that none are frozen there  anyway.

 Mr Noppadon said European countries adhered strictly to democracy and respected the people's voice through elections.

 Mr Noppadon added that certain countries had taken action against  Thaksin in the past because they had been pressured to do so when the  Abhisit Vejjajiva government was in power and was attempting to  extradite Thaksin so he could serve his two-year jail sentence.

----------


## Calgary

> Mr Noppadon added that certain countries had taken action against  Thaksin in the past because they had been pressured to do so when the  Abhisit Vejjajiva government was in power and was attempting to  extradite Thaksin so he could serve his two-year jail sentence.


One can only speculate where the pressure was coming from in Thailand, and who it was being exerted on in England.

One can only speculate and not discuss.

----------


## nidhogg

> Funny, when you type it I don't imagine the same snivelling voice in my head, blowing snot bubbles as he gets excited at having used the same troll line for the 500th time.....


Here fucking here.  Use of that line should result in an immediate red.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Suriyasai: Thaksin playing tricks | Bangkok Post: news
*
*Suriyasai: Thaksin playing tricks*
Published: 29/04/2012 at 09:47 PMOnline news: Politics
 Deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra was  using three reconciliation strategies to ensure his return to Thailand,  Green Group coordinator Suriyasai Katasila said on Sunday.

Mr Suriyasia also said that even though some red shirt leaders  were unhappy about the recent meeting between Prime Minister Yingluck  Shinawatra and Privy Council president Prem Tinsulanonda, his view was  that it was simply colour politics. 

 He singled out red shirt core member Shinawat Haboonpad, who had  strongly declared some members of the movement were against the Prem  meeting, but now is silent on the issue. 

 It should be noted that red shirt key figures who had extensively attacked the "_amataya_  (elite) regime" have chosen now to keep quiet. This  ,therefore, reflected the belief that UDD leaders were only using  political issues to encourage their supporters to rally and suffer for  them and their personal interests.  

 The former key member of the anti-Thaksin People's Alliance for  Democracy (PAD) said red shirt political comments seen by some academics  as a people’s force to build democracy and justice is invalid. This was  because Thaksin was still playing puppeteer and maintaining absolute  power over them.   

 “Given the current atmosphere of reconciliation, I believe Pol Lt Col  Thaksin will make a quick move in advancing his cause by using three  strategies including holding secret talks with influential figures in  society, enacting an amnesty bill and maintaining his red shirt army to  control negotiating power,” Mr Surayasai said.

 “He will either get it by trickery or ruse so that he can return home  at the earliest. He can’t wait anymore because the popularity of his  sister’s government is going downhill.”

----------


## Calgary

[QUOTE]*Suriyasai: Thaksin playing tricks | Bangkok Post: news [/QUOTE*]



> ".............. Green Group coordinator Suriyasai Katasila said on Sunday.


In other words, "PADite coordinator".....truly amazing how PADites always like to distance themselves, from themselves.




> It should be noted that red shirt key figures who had extensively attacked the "amataya  (elite) regime" have chosen now to keep quiet


Yes they have. 

Keep in mind they unfailingly will defend Ms. Y. and company against the coupists. They are patient and aware that there are many political forces for Ms. Y. to deal with, and they are not about to exert pressure on her to be a "_bull in a china shop_". 

This pisses off the coupist PAD/Amart. As a result, they haven't been able to lay a finger on Ms. Y. They would love to drag her into a political morass and keep goading her. But they are just _'suckin sand'_.




> This therefore, reflected the belief that UDD leaders were only using  political issues to encourage their supporters to rally and suffer for  them and their personal interests.


No it doesn't.

It reflects political astuteness.




> The former key member of the anti-Thaksin People's Alliance for  Democracy (PAD) said red shirt political comments seen by some academics  as a people’s force to build democracy and justice is invalid.


Not seen by "_some academics_", but by "_PADite academics_"

And one wouldn't expect anything else from them.

The electorate repudiated them and this self-serving spin.




> This was  because Thaksin was still playing puppeteer and maintaining absolute  power over them.


They cannot get the notion of electoral success through their thickness, can they. 

They just cannot fathom political astuteness by anyone other than themselves. As a result, they are on the political sidelines.

Poor babies.




> "...............maintaining his red shirt army to  control negotiating power,” Mr Surayasai said.


An electoral based majority controlling negotiating power is the norm in a Democracy.

Their alternative are pro-coup armed aggressors killing these people. The election took care of their idiocy real good.




> He can’t wait anymore because the popularity of his  sister’s government is going downhill.”


Talk about unsubstantiated wishful thinking to the extreme. This guy will have the next election results shoved down his throat. Hope he chokes.

----------


## mao say dung

^BP does a good job with tracking various polls and so far they show this government maintaining popularity and voter confidence... "going downhill" my ass.

----------


## Calgary

> ^BP does a good job with tracking various polls and so far they show this government maintaining popularity and voter confidence... "going downhill" my ass.


It gets boring sometimes countering such loose, agenized verbiage with nothing behind it other than wishful thinking.

But if ya don't counter it, becomes fact. Farangs read this stuff in the Post and Nation all the time, and unless one takes the time to deal with it, becomes fixed as reality.

Especially over "_on the dark side_", they eliminate the option of countering this stuff, instead sending in their own operatives to reinforce it. It is a travesty what is done to Farangs over there.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

I'm looking forward to a post-Thaksin, post-PAD, social democrat movement. How about you Calgary?

----------


## Calgary

> I'm looking forward to a post-Thaksin, post-PAD, social democrat movement. How about you Calgary?


I think we are closer to a post-Thaksin situation, than many people think. The PADites and Amart would argue against that point vociforously, as they think their criminalization campaign has damaged him. They work hard to tie the UDD/Red Shirts to him. They hope thereby to deprive this Democracy Movement of any political context. Last year's election disproved that point. 

But watching and listening to Thaksin in Cambodia, plus other indicators, suggest to me he is quite happy to be an elder-statesman, exercising behind the scenes influence.  His sister is doing a hell-of-a-job, and there are other "young Turks" in waiting. I don't think he is 'pining away' to get back out in front of this next generation.

The PAD is written off by many, but I'm not so sure. They were a top-down creation, serving as the "Protest wing" of the Amart. The Amart could crank them up again at will I think. If a big-wig told them to re-group, with funding to follow, they could re-constitute themselves in a hurry.

----------


## Calgary

Deleted by self

----------


## mao say dung

> They were a top-down creation, serving as the "Protest wing" of the Amart


This is not precisely true... initially there was as much grass in the roots as the Reds ever had... they did, however, end up serving as shock troops for a palace/military coalition.

----------


## Calgary

> Originally Posted by Calgary
> 
> They were a top-down creation, serving as the "Protest wing" of the Amart
> 
> 
> This is not precisely true... initially there was as much grass in the roots as the Reds ever had... they did, however, end up serving as shock troops for a palace/military coalition.


Several thoughts come to mind as an extension of your points MSD:

Motivation is open to speculation. The majority of PADites were Government Officials, hence a captive audience of said Government. Whether they reported to work, or to a protest made no difference to them. They did whatever their bosses prescribed. The protest was a lot more fun, was pensionable service with all expenses paid, including a spanking new T-shirt.

It would be instructive to look at their entire "body of work" so to speak. When one tallies all the regional rallies carefully blacked out by the media, plus all the Bangkok stuff, research would show, I think, that PADite activities in volume and membership, would pale in comparison to that of the UDD/Red Shirts.

The propaganda media would like to deprive the UDD/Red Shirts of a political context by suggesting everything they did was funded by Thaksin. That they had no political context beyond what they were paid to do. Such is their arrogance and conceit and exagerated political self-opinion, they slander and villify the Red Shirts in this way. I would suggest that when it came to funding, the PAD was funded immensely compared to the Red Shirts.

Speaking from personal observations and assistance provided, local Red Shirts worked overtime, doing fund raisers for their activities. I never saw any of that being undertaken by the PAD. The Red Shirts were supported financially as is any protest movement, but this would pale in comparison to the PAD in my view.

All of this goes to the question of motive and grassroots desire, drive, incentive and disposition.

The hard core of the PAD would be every bit as driven, but the totality of this pales in comparison I think.

The UDD/Red Shirts are truly a _'grassroots Movement_" whereas the PAD would be described otherwise: A_ paid and motivated protest arm of the Amart._ Once the Amart achieved its' aims, the PAD was 'put on the shelf'. You will notice that the UDD/Red Shirt continue as strong as ever, both defending this Government and advancing its objectives of never again to be trodden underfoot by the Amart. That is indicative of a "movement" IMHO.

The PAD continue being the protest arm of the Amart and Opposition, as evidenced by the faux creation of all these so-called protesting networks and distancing themselves from themselves, by pretending to be coloured differently.

----------


## mao say dung

^I was responding to your suggestion that they were a "top-down creation", thereby suggesting that they were initially less "genuine" than the early reds. I don't think this is the case.

PAD formed out of the late-2005 series of "demonstrations" that took place around the moving of Sondhi's TV show from MCOT, due to Thaksin having him taken off the air for criticizing his administration (and using defense of the Monarchy as the excuse... where have we heard that before?), to the web and various outdoor venues... culminating in the 50K or more who showed up at Lumpini.

What PAD became later and what its roots were are arguably not the same thing. Small point, but ignoring the history in the interests of rhetoric serves no one with a desire to maintain some sense of where we've been and where we're headed in this ongoing struggle.

A lot of Thais, some of whom are now no doubt redshirts, were very angry with Thaksin with good reason in 2005/2006. It didn't take "amart propaganda" to make them feel that way; it just took paying attention to Thaksin's behaviour in power.

----------


## mao say dung

Here's a timeline I assembled a couple of years ago on another site:




> August 2005- Sondhi begins criticizing Thaksin blatantly on his TV show _Thailand Weekly_   Up until just before this, Sondhi had been a loud and clear  cheerleader for Thaksin, which was probably why his show was the only  remaining political commentary program on Thai TV.
> 
> 15 September 2005- Sondhi removed from broadcast television, as previous  critics had been long before. Moves his show to a public stage at  Thammasat. 3000 people attend. Shpw is available as video on Manager  website and ASTV cable, thus becoming the very first politically  dissident TV broadcast in Thai history. Shows concentrate on analysis of  all the undemocratic things Thaksin has done, but popularity rises  sharply when Sondhi hits the corruption theme button. Thaksin responds  with lawsuits and secures an injunction to halt the cable broadcast,  meaning ASTV viewers must attend rallies if they want to continue  experiencing this unique event. _Thailand Weekly_ draws 80,000 to  its Lumpini edition in early December. Just before being taken off air,  Sondhi had introduced a novel element: accusations that Thaksin did not  respect the monarchy. At Lumpini, just before the King's birthday,  Sondhi wears a yellow T-shirt with the slogan "We Fight For The King".
> 
> November 11 2005- Sondhi calls for the King to supplant Thaksin and initiate political reform.
> 
> November 18 2005- All three Armed Forces chiefs, plus the Supreme  Commander, rebuke Sondhi for bringing the King so blatantly into  politics. Next day, Sonthi Boonyaratklin is asked about a coup coming  out of this and says "Gone is the era when soldiers staged coups."
> 
> December 4 2005- King's birthday speech- "not even I am above  criticism"- criticises lawsuits (Thaksin) and politics on TV (Sondhi).  "They want to see soap dramas instead....Do not quarrel. No quarelling.  Do not over-do." Thaksin drops lawsuits and Sondhi tones down the shows.  Mid-January Sondhi's _Thailand Weekly_ draws 2000 people. Sondhi  calls for a rally to invade government house and gets 2000 people and  nothing really happens. Sondhi announces a final "farewell" show for  February 4 2006.
> ...


By the time PAD was officially PAD, they were what you suggest. That there was a strong element of grass in the roots is undeniable. Sondhi was getting ready to pack it all in when 50K folks showed up for that farewell performance. That's grass no matter how you mow it.

----------


## Calgary

MSD - #3892 ^
*A lot of Thais, some of whom are now no doubt redshirts, were very angry with Thaksin with good reason in 2005/2006. It didn't take "amart propaganda" to make them feel that way; it just took paying attention to Thaksin's behaviour in power.
*

On the other hand, many admired Thaksin immensely. Electoral results suggest most of them did. This is powerful evidence countering Amart attempts to criminalize him. Were all those people blind? Were they angry at Thaksin's behavior? Were they all stupid being led around by the nose? The only blind ones IMHO, are the ones who have been following the self-serving Amart media, framing things for them, during and after Thaksin's tenure.

Some very well-educated, mature Red Shirts around here, who have been political junkies their entire life, who speak of being integrally involved with historical political upheavels, will speak eloquently, knowledgably with significant political astuteness of the pre-Thaksin era vs. Post-Thaksin.

The improvement was huge in their opinion. They will speak of Democrat Party corruption which dwarfed anything during and after Thaksin. They call it a criminal organization. They have voluminous historical facts and insight to back it up.

They know the Amart and its' MO. They know of the Governing entitlement these people attribute to themselves. They speak at length about their 'eyes' being open now, with respect to other institutions.

The aggressive actions of Thaksin self-servingly painted by the Amart one way, was in fact just a defence against Amart power-plays, including the utilization of their media. To suggest that during Thaksin's reign, the media was his, is untrue. It never was. It was a tool operating at the behest of the Amart and used against him, and he reacted accordingly. Their made-up stories were legendary, to the point he was forced to take them to court to verify the veracity of their stuff reported as fact. In light of today's coupist, Amart anti-Yingluck media, it is deja vu all over again. 

I defer to my highly educated Thai confidants whose opinions I respect highly, for their interpretation of political realities preceding my tenure here of ten years. Their historically-rooted knowledge and interpretation of the Thaksin years as related to the years before, with all of it corroberated by electoral results, is based on a thorough understanding. I sympathise with their perspective completely, and do not accept the way the Amart and their media frames it. The credibility of the Amart, its' media and all other institutions compared to them, is obvious to me.

----------


## mao say dung

> The aggressive actions of Thaksin self-servingly painted by the Amart one way, was in fact just a defence against Amart power-plays, including the utilization of their media.


I have made this argument myself on a number of occasions over the years, but I have never fallen into the trap of suggesting that Thaksin's authoritarian, anti-democratic actions while in power were "just" that.

You need to read some of the books written by non-amart journalists and academics concerning his years in power. If you can still come away believing that his antics were "just" defense against amart manipulation, I'd recommend laying off the Kool-Aid for a while.

I've been fed-to-the-teeth with being called a "Thaksin apologist/supporter" for my support of the UDD as democracy advocates. I accept that Thaksin is the democratic choice of a majority of Thais. I don't accept that that means he was anything but what he so clearly was when in power. 

That Thaksinite policies were in many cases significant advances on previous administrations' is not in doubt. Neither is the impact that his admininstration has had on politicizing formerly disenfranchised Thais. Neither of these things mean that Thaksin himself is a democracy advocate or that his machinations in power were all intended to improve democracy in Thailand. He isn't and they weren't.

I'm still waiting to see whither the UDD once all the ducks are in a row. Whether I continue to support them as democracy advocates will depend on how they behave towards a Thaksin administration that gets comfortable in power. At the moment, I'm less than sanguine.

Just as an aside, Calgary, what is your take on Thaksin's choice of Samak Sundaravej as proxy leader before there was a sister ready to run? "Kill them all... kill them all" was not really the sort of rhetoric you expect from an anti-amart democracy activist, no matter how well he cooked.

----------


## Calgary

> Just as an aside, Calgary, what is your take on Thaksin's choice of Samak Sundaravej as proxy leader before there was a sister ready to run?


I bandied that question about here, with people more knowledgable than I.

At the time, the Amart was _'making hay'_ with its' accusations that Thaksin was anti a certain institution.

Samak had impeccable credentials in that regard.

This was a key reason for his selection, to blunt that attack.

Samak however learned some realities, and ultimately died because of them.

That is about as specific as I can be MSD.

----------


## mao say dung

That is nothing more nor less than the standard "take". Of course it was his credentials as a royalist that made him attractive as a leader.

My question was about his credentials as a leading member of the amart, as a promoter of mass slaughter of pro-democracy protesters, and as someone willing to lie through his teeth in international media as he laughed off the insignificance of the deaths of phrai and students back in the day.

----------


## Calgary

> That is nothing more nor less than the standard "take". Of course it was his credentials as a royalist that made him attractive as a leader.
> 
> My question was about his credentials as a leading member of the amart, as a promoter of mass slaughter of pro-democracy protesters, and as someone willing to lie through his teeth in international media as he laughed off the insignificance of the deaths of phrai and students back in the day.


Maybe the 'standard take' has a reason for being the 'standard take', with respect to the question about why him, at that time.

I passed this past some people. Some comments I received:

Everyone knows who was responsible for some of the things you reference, but just don't speak about it. 

Samak didn't have the power for such a thing.

Discussing these matters is a little bit like discussing French military history without ever referencing Napoleon.

There is a lot of information and understanding about all of this, which you and I will not discuss.

The historical events you reference involved students....R'song involved old men, old women and everything in between.

Who had the power to authorize that?....certainly not Abhi.

When one can only discuss 1/2 of the story, talking about the other 1/2 is misleading.

How can one get a grip on 15 coups the last number of years? Is there a commonality? Does one blame Abhi. for R'song? Does one blame Samak for his involvement? Which other Prime Ministers and military leaders does one blame for those 15 coups? How many R'songs were authorized?

'round and 'round we go, with no consensus. But there seems to be consensus with some people. The Red Shirts have this T-shirt with a big eye-ball on it.

----------


## mao say dung

OK. I give. 

 Have to say though: that riff of non-sequiturs would go down well in any of the mainstream English language media in Thailand.    :Smile:

----------


## LooseBowels

> they did, however, end up serving as shock troops for a palace/military coalition.


Thats putting it mildly :Smile: 

Actually they were no more than amart terrorist, falang propaganderising, brainwashing , nut jobs, on 500 baht a day.
Still walking the streets.

You can't argue with that

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by Calgary
> 
> The aggressive actions of Thaksin self-servingly painted by the Amart one way, was in fact just a defence against Amart power-plays, including the utilization of their media.
> 
> 
> I have made this argument myself on a number of occasions over the years, but I have never fallen into the trap of suggesting that Thaksin's authoritarian, anti-democratic actions while in power were "just" that.
> 
> You need to read some of the books written by non-amart journalists and academics concerning his years in power. If you can still come away believing that his antics were "just" defense against amart manipulation, I'd recommend laying off the Kool-Aid for a while.
> 
> ...


What are the things that the UDD, in their role as 'democracy advocates' have done that advance democracy in this country that is not tied in with helping the PT and Thaksin?

Why is is that when 95% of the country support democracy as the best form of government only 14% or so identify themselves as red-shirts or lean towards them?

----------


## Calgary

Longway, #3901^
*What are the things that the UDD, in their role as 'democracy advocates' have done that advance democracy in this country* 

Win elections and challenge coupists, even though it cost some their lives.

Not complicated.

Any other questions?

----------


## longway

^ Yes you help the PT and Thaksin, thats a given, but what else do you do that advances democracy in this country? Something that is not tied in with their interests. Anything?

----------


## Calgary

> ^ Yes you help the PT and Thaksin, thats a given, but what else do you do that advances democracy in this country? Something that is not tied in with their interests. Anything?


Lots.

Challenging coupists at a cost of lives is the supreme sacrifice. Challenging them for their coupist ways and not accepting coups vs. elections. Then having a subsequent election validate these challenges. 

Having a vibrant anti-coup stance, causing coupists to thank twice about seizing power via non-democratic means. Thereby forcing democratic practices on them. That is progress.

And yes, electoral victories are predicated on one side being populated, in this case by the winning political party, and openly associated with Thaksin. Something the voters had a full knowledge of when last voting. The Democratically elected Government have a number of constituancies, all helping each other winning democratic elections. 

Your implied notion that one constituancy helping another is somehow undemocratic doesn't fly. Like the Opposition trying to denigrate the various components of the winning side as being 'cronies'. 

You bet,............ out with Abhisit cronies, and in with PTP/Red Shirt/Thaksin cronies. That is what winning elections do for ya.

The current administration is there via nation-wide elections, the previous one was not. That is advancing Democracy, wouldn't you say?

To your point of advancing Democracy not linked to the interests of electorally winning elements, one needs look no further than the massive politicization of the largest Political Movement in Thailand. A politicization the Amart and its electoral minority arrogantly dismisses. But let me tell you, these people have a clear idea about what democracy is, what it means, and even a clearer idea of whom is not well served by it and anti-democratic as a result. Such people are exemplified by those who attacked them at R'song......all institutions.

That is education and development my friend. A horribly unanticipated consequence for the coupist Amart.

Now, if one wants to foist all the deficiencies of Thai Democratic practices on the notion that Democracy is not advancing, is a false argument. Nobody expects perfection, and it wont come to Thailand for some time.

But given all of the above, progress has been tremendous, even though that progress has been at the expense of the minority who cannot be elected due to their minority status, but yet believe they are the entitled ones. They would self-servingly denigrate and deny all of the above, and I wouldn't expect anything else from them.

Tell your friends over _'on the dark side'_ Longway, as they insure members are 'ostriched' from this type of thinking and information. That is what is called undemocratic and censoring those they fear...Me.

You OK with that? Don't get me wrong. I appreciate the likes of you and Thaihome plus others being over here. One can have debates from two sides of the fence without disturbing the fence censoriously leaning against one side.

----------


## mao say dung

^Someone doesn't understand that politics, including democratic politics, is always about advancing your interests.

Given the degree of certainty attached to a democratic election in Thailand resulting in a Thaksin victory for the past decade or so, what could anyone do to promote democracy that wouldn't be helping Thaksin and PT, longway?

----------


## Calgary

> ^Someone doesn't understand that politics, including democratic politics, is always about advancing your interests.
> 
> Given the degree of certainty attached to a democratic election in Thailand resulting in a Thaksin victory for the past decade or so, what could anyone do to promote democracy that wouldn't be helping Thaksin and PT, longway?


Let me also address this question in addition to Longway.

One way of doing that would be for the Amart and Democrat Party competing for the _'hearts and minds'_ of majority of Thai's. It would also help, if they were a bit more selective about who their friends are.

They have not been competitive, and have tied their star to fading anti-democratic elements. They only have themselves to blame.

[B[I*]]"..........politics, including democratic politics, is always about advancing your interests"[/*B]

[/I]Good point. 

That is more Democratic progress and what the UDD/Red Shirts have accomplished.

Their membership is now thoroughly aware of what their political interests are.

Again, this is arrogantly disparaged by the Amart, who conceitedly speak as if only they know anything about 'political interests'. As a result, in their exagerated self-opinion, only they have the wherewithal to advance the 'political interests' of the country as a whole. Such arrogance has them on the political sidelines and is merely a testament to their self-perceived sense of governing entitlement.

Placing them electorally on the sidelines is progress in Democratic practices.

----------


## longway

^ Not too sure what Calgary said in post 3904, but basically sounds like nothing, same with 3905, you cant name a thing can you? UDD have done nothing that does not serve to further PT interests. It always looks as if the PT controls the UDD on the whole. 

Now you guys know why you are labelled deluded Thaksin apologists.

If the UDD interests are served by supporting the PT then they are not democracy advocates, but PT advocates, whose special interests are served by ensuring PT are in power. 

As for what they can do outside serving the PT

in a nutshell they should be developing tactics that hobble the patronage system that pervades every aspect of the government, police and army and strangles any movement to democracy and the rule of law, and cements the ties between criminals and politics.

They have had 5-6 years to come up with something, so far, as far as i can find out - zero. They have done nothing that doesn't serve their PT masters.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by mao say dung
> 
> 
> ^Someone doesn't understand that politics, including democratic politics, is always about advancing your interests.
> 
> Given the degree of certainty attached to a democratic election in Thailand resulting in a Thaksin victory for the past decade or so, what could anyone do to promote democracy that wouldn't be helping Thaksin and PT, longway?
> 
> 
> Let me also address this question in addition to Longway.
> ...


Why have not the UDD made the democrats and the PT compete for their support? I think know the answer, but as they are supposed to be 'democracy advocates' its a surprising stance.

----------


## Calgary

> _progress has been tremendous, even though that progress has been at the expense of the minority who cannot be elected due to their minority status, but yet believe they are the entitled ones. They would self-servingly denigrate and deny all of the above, and I wouldn't expect anything else from them._


_
_
Longway proves my point completely. Denigrate and deny all of my points, and coming from a PADite, I wouldn't expect anything elese. Sometimes they are very 'predictive'.

[*QUOTE="longway"] Not too sure what Calgary said in post 3904, but basically sounds like nothing,[/QUOTE]
*

You are very sure about what I said, as it is very clear. And it says a lot. You just dont like what it says. It is intellectually easier just to disparage it with a lazy "_says nothing". 
_


> *UDD have done nothing that does not serve to further PT interests. It always looks as if the PT controls the UDD on the whole. *




Who controls who is a constant mantra of the Amart, as they would love to see discord and disunity.

With respect to the above quote, let me answer it with a quote from MSD in Post # 3905:

_Someone doesn't understand that politics, including democratic politics, is always about advancing your interests 
_




> If the UDD interests are served by supporting the PT then they are not democracy advocates, but PT advocates, whose special interests are served by ensuring PT are in power.


Nope.

Each side of a political equation has a number of elements, who make no bones about supporting each other. Electoral democracy is served by electing the majority, a majority of elements with common political interests.





> in a nutshell they should be developing tactics that hobble the patronage system that pervades every aspect of the government, police and army and strangles any movement to democracy and the rule of law, and cements the ties between criminals and politics.


Let me repeat my answer to this quote of yours Longway, as you obviously didn't bother reading it: 
_Now, if one wants to foist all the deficiencies of Thai Democratic practices on the notion that Democracy is not  
               advancing, is a false argument. Nobody expects perfection, and it wont come to Thailand for some time._



> They have had 5-6 years to come up with something, so far, as far as i can find out - zero. They have done nothing that doesn't serve their PT masters.


Geez, repetition or what......PTP and UDD/Red Shirts have similar political interests. And they support each other to get elected.....what is it about that you don't understand LW. As to who is master of whom, is irrelevant.

----------


## Calgary

> *Why have not the UDD made the democrats and the PT compete for their support? I think know the answer, but as they are supposed to be 'democracy advocates' its a surprising stance.*




The UDD have made the PTP compete for their support...BIG TIME...and continue to do so now.The PTP has their support.

They have no interest in supporting the Democrats, nor have the Democrats competed for it.The Democrats do not have their support.

Nothing surprising about that

There are many reasons for it:.
>They are anti-coupist, hence anti-Democrat Party. Does R'song ring a bell LW?
> The Democrat Party is always the chief beneficiary of coups, because they are coupists.
>The Democrat Party is a creation and extension of the Amart, and the chief reason why the UDD/Red Shirts were formed - to prevent them from achieving their political interests (See above for a discussion about political interests)

etc., etc., etc.

BTW, how do you feel about censorship, and contributing to it LW?

----------


## longway

^ I asked is there anything the UDD does that does not advance PT interests, the answer has been, as far as I can make out, it does not do anything like that; the rationalisation being that there exists a perfect synergy between progressing democracy in Thailand and PT being in power.

Have I summed it up?

This why people laugh at you.




> BTW, how do you feel about censorship, and contributing to it LW?


Dare I ask how I contribute to censorship?




> Someone doesn't understand that politics, including democratic politics, is always about advancing your interests.


I have not said that the UDD should not support the PT, what i am asking is that as self proclaimed 'democracy advocates' what they do to advance democracy that does not serve PT interests. It does not have to be against the PT, but there must be something in the 5-6 years of their existance they must have done outside of serving the PT if they really are 'democracy advocates'.

----------


## Thaihome

> ^Someone doesn't understand that politics, including democratic politics, is always about advancing your interests.
> 
> Given the degree of certainty attached to a democratic election in Thailand resulting in a Thaksin victory for the past decade or so, what could anyone do to promote democracy that wouldn't be helping Thaksin and PT, longway?


 
How about actually doing something about improving the economic future for the rural poor other than hand outs and pork barrel projects. 

Things like land reform, doing away with the rice milling, transportation, and construction monopolies, improving education facilities, improving small farmers agriculture productivity. You know, all the things that the provincial elite, including the ones that support Thaksin, dont actually want to happen, which is why the UDD does not have anything like that in its platform.  

Read Calgarys post #2904.  Just slogans, name calling, hate filled hyperbole and demagoguery. Not a single thing about doing away with the patron-client culture that dominates the rural poors lives.  Calgary and his ilk offer nothing positive.  It is all about making somebody the bogeyman to keep the attention away from the real issues and people behind them. 

The coup is over. There have been two elections since.  Those two elected parliaments have voted in 4 different PMs.  Elections work, everybody knows that.  

Lets get on with developing Thailand and leave the hatred, fear mongering, and divisiveness behind. Lets go after the real economic problems and the groups that benefit from the economic status quo. 

Just a hint, but it aint all about some Bangkok elite or the amart.  
TH

----------


## Butterfly

> Not too sure what Calgary said in post 3904, but basically sounds like nothing, same with 3905, you cant name a thing can you? UDD have done nothing that does not serve to further PT interests. It always looks as if the PT controls the UDD on the whole.


Calgary is not saying anything, he is a fool and really giving a bad name to the reds, almost feel sorry to have someone like him do their promotion for farangs, he is definitely not helping the cause. Nobody could anyhow since the reds movement is as clear as mud, and without Thaksin, it would fall apart. For some reasons, they think that by tricking Thaksin and his money, they will change things. Like I said, fools leading other fools.




> If the UDD interests are served by supporting the PT then they are not democracy advocates, but PT advocates, whose special interests are served by ensuring PT are in power.


in short they are a fascist group, that is a special interest group using violence and intimidation when they don't get what they want from other parties.




> in a nutshell they should be developing tactics that hobble the patronage system that pervades every aspect of the government, police and army and strangles any movement to democracy and the rule of law, and cements the ties between criminals and politics.


absolutely, and yet they are users of that same patronage and corruption system to advance their agenda. Why would they need to change things once they get into power ? they won't. We have seen this scenario 100 times in the past, it's always the same ending, the base get screwed and the leaders get rewarded.




> They have had 5-6 years to come up with something, so far, as far as i can find out - zero. They have done nothing that doesn't serve their PT masters.


that's the problem, no long term vision, only unrealistic dreams based on no action, a bit like winning at the government lottery, incidentally a favorite past time for Issaan locals, so we all know why they are playing that game with PT.

----------


## mao say dung

You boys'd be better off playing by yourselves.

The UDD are/were a protest movement set up to demand elections and a few other very limited goals. How they morph into the future, I'm interested to see.

They are not a political party and they are not the government. 

"Their platform"?

I find all this naive crap about what they haven't done, like improving agricultural productivity, or ending patronage, to be just silly. Everyone knows that the great majority of Reds are/were Thaksin supporters... and for sure we all know that's bad. 

They didn't get the election when they wanted it, but their party won, and thanks in part to their sustained and massive protest the elected government of the Thai people, not of the UDD, is still in power, unlike what might have happened without their having instilled a bit of "fear" in the usual suspects.

Limited goals, limited win.

Suck it up gentleboys and save your hysteria for Lady Gaga. She's definitely coming I hear.

 :Smile:

----------


## Butterfly

> The UDD are/were a protest movement set up to demand elections and a few other very limited goals


really ? not according to their heavily advertised manifesto, also available in English  :mid: 




> They are not a political party and they are not the government.


yes, that's correct. They are a private fascist group, this has been established without any doubt for quite a while.

----------


## longway

> You boys'd be better off playing by yourselves.
> 
> The UDD are/were a protest movement set up to demand elections and a few other very limited goals. How they morph into the future, I'm interested to see.
> 
> They are not a political party and they are not the government. 
> 
> "Their platform"?
> 
> I find all this naive crap about what they haven't done, like improving agricultural productivity, or ending patronage, to be just silly. Everyone knows that the great majority of Reds are/were Thaksin supporters... and for sure we all know that's bad. 
> ...


The only person getting hysterical is as usual Calgary.

Nice, dozens dead and thousands of lives ruined and that's the BS you fall for.

Their main goal, along withe the PT it seems is to ensure conditions are right to ensure Thaksin's return and so far they have failed.

----------


## noelbino

Why do the UDD demand that all villagers belong to the UDD? Where is democracy in that?

----------


## Calgary

> Dare I ask how I contribute to censorship?


By particpating in forums that exercise it. You know full well what I am talking about LW

----------


## Calgary

> Let’s get on with developing Thailand and leave the hatred, fear mongering, and divisiveness behind. Let’s go after the real economic problems and the groups that benefit from the economic status quo.


That coming from a coupist. 

Unbelievable.

Trying to deny being a coupist doesn't work. One needs only 'connect the dots".

Sympathising and defending Democrat Party and PADite shenanigans is defending the pro-coup murderers of R'song, and that makes you a coupist TH.

You and your type would resort to a coup in a heartbeat, if the deck would not be stacked against you this time.

You and your type hold your political opposites in such contempt, that to you this country is going to _hell in a handbasket_ without your hereditary and entitled governance.

And don't give me this holier-than-thou stuff about hatred, fear mongering, and divisiveness. You have the legacy of a recent coup and killings at R'song defending that coup, to live down. To blame others for such stuff, is a bit much.

"_Let’s go after the real economic problems and the groups that benefit from the economic status quo"_  ...What the hell do you think the PTP and Ms. Y. are doing.

But there is that denigrating arrogance again. Never far from the surface. If it is not you and your coupist administrations doing it, things are in turmoil.

Win an election and you can do it right?...... But that is the catch isn't it. Your BIG problem.

----------


## Calgary

> *The only person getting hysterical is as usual Calgary*.


Typical of your type over there on "the dark side" Get presented with alternatives that are buttressed by fact and sound arguments, must be all lies, hysterical, etc.

They have you well trained over there LW.




> *Their main goal, along withe the PT it seems is to ensure conditions are right to ensure Thaksin's return and so far they have failed*.


Opposition agenda, and I would expect that from you.

It fits well within the narrative of them, a narrative based on contempt for political opposites, disparaging and impugning a paucity of political awareness on their part. 

How many times do I read their media talking about turmoil, political armegeddon, bedlam, confusion and disorder without their rightful Governing entitlement. 

But ya gotta win an election.....Damn!

----------


## Calgary

Thaihome, #3912 ^
_Read Calgary’s post #2904. Just slogans, name calling, hate filled hyperbole and demagoguery....."_

Actually TH means Post # 2906, which is on page 117 of this thread.

You decide if the characterization of this Post is as described by TH.

It certainly is at odds with his perspective, and I suppose he would see it as such.

----------


## mao say dung

> really ? not according to their heavily advertised manifesto, also available in English


My copy is stashed away somewhere with my other Rajprasong memorabilia. They had 4 main goals:

1.a democratic state with a constitutional monarchy in which power belongs to the people
2. a fair and just state, a legal state with a fair judicial system; the double standards thing
3. bring back the 97 constitution to  be revised and amended
4. a free capitalist state in which inequality can be addressed by taking economic power out of the hands of the oligarchy

They made clear their support for and defense of Thaksin and their sense of injustice in his treatment etc....

Seems like fairly standard demands for democratic reform. If they still want those things they'll have to keep the pressure on the PT government. I for one will wait and see.

----------


## Butterfly

> Seems like fairly standard demands for democratic reform.


if it was indeed, but you just said it wasn't a movement for democracy, just a pressure group for election and limited goals. This manifesto is hardly for limited goals and definitely more than asking for an election. So which is it ? 

full of contradiction again, exactly like the composition of the red movement

----------


## Butterfly

> They made clear their support for and defense of Thaksin and their sense of injustice in his treatment etc....


again, Thaksin is exactly the type of Amart they are trying to "fight", so how can they defend him and keep a straight face ?

----------


## mao say dung

> I've been fed-to-the-teeth with being called a "Thaksin apologist/supporter" for my support of the UDD as democracy advocates.





> Whether I continue to support them as democracy advocates will depend on how they behave towards a Thaksin administration that gets comfortable in power.





> The UDD are/were a protest movement set up to demand elections and a few other very limited goals. How they morph into the future, I'm interested to see.  They are not a political party and they are not the government.


I mistakenly assumed you read the posts above and about 50 other posts where I've responded to people who wonder why UDD doesn't do something about "agriculture" and other things that pro-democracy protest movements don't usually "do something about".

And I think compared to some of the nonsensical "why don't they____________?" guff that you folks come up with, those 4 demands are rather modest.

----------


## mao say dung

> again, Thaksin is exactly the type of Amart they are trying to "fight", so how can they defend him and keep a straight face ?


No, he's the kind of super wealthy Sino-Thai Northerner whose gramps was a tax farmer that needs votes to get into power; the amart they rattle on about use tanks and royalist-mystico bumpf about phudii to maintain an outmoded form of government. Just because you don't recognize the difference doesn't mean they don't. 

He is bad though, I'll give you that. But so was Jerry Lee Lewis and he's no amart.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> really ? not according to their heavily advertised manifesto, also available in English
> 
> 
> My copy is stashed away somewhere with my other Rajprasong memorabilia. They had 4 main goals:
> 
> 1.a democratic state with a constitutional monarchy in which power belongs to the people
> 2. a fair and just state, a legal state with a fair judicial system; the double standards thing
> ...


 if they want those things they need to develop tactics to remove the patronage system, that they don't do anything beyond supporting the PT means that their stated aims are just empty words.

All their tactics relate only to getting thaksin back in power, which is what they are all about.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> again, Thaksin is exactly the type of Amart they are trying to "fight", so how can they defend him and keep a straight face ?
> 
> 
> No, he's the kind of super wealthy Sino-Thai Northerner whose gramps was a tax farmer that needs votes to get into power; the amart they rattle on about use tanks and royalist-mystico bumpf about phudii to maintain an outmoded form of government. Just because you don't recognize the difference doesn't mean they don't. 
> 
> He is bad though, I'll give you that. But so was Jerry Lee Lewis and he's no amart.


Wow elected criminals as opposed to unelected aristocrats. Bravo to 'them'. 

That they cannot see that the PT and Thaksin relies on patronage, corruption, violence and other illegal means to maintain their grip on power as much as any other group of elites in thailand is why their movement is such a failure or a fraud.

And that you don't realize that the semi mystical mumbo jumbo allowed Thailand to develop in a polical culture that was nowhere near as brutal and repressive as it's neighbors is what makes you as stupid as you are obnoxious.

Yes I know I know the Amart they bad they jealous him.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> Dare I ask how I contribute to censorship?
> 
> 
> By particpating in forums that exercise it. You know full well what I am talking about LW


Yeah I am sorry they banned you. You seemed to cause people to have fits with your posts, it was funny to see.

----------


## LooseBowels

> That is education and development my friend. A horribly unanticipated consequence for the coupist Amart.


Bang on the money there. :Smile: 

But not only as far as internal education and development of the people goes, but most vitaly the education and development of the International democratic community and  authorities knowledge about whats really been going on in thailand.
The coupist have exposed themselves to international scrutiny, big mistake.

You can't argue with that

----------


## mao say dung

> semi mystical mumbo jumbo allowed Thailand to develop in a polical culture that was nowhere near as brutal and repressive as it's neighbors


Indeed. And dogs get the bestest birthday parties because of it.

Do you type on your knees with your head on the ground too?




> That they cannot see that the PT and Thaksin relies on patronage, corruption, violence and other illegal means to maintain their grip on power as much as any other group of elites in thailand is why their movement is such a failure or a fraud.


Can't imagine why you think they "can't see" any of that. They are Thai and patronage and corruption are apparently not judged as harshly by most Thais as they are by people from liberal democracies. This tends to be true throughout Asia. Only a fool would expect a Thai democracy or a Thai pro-democracy movement to have the form and sensibilities of western liberal democracy. Liberalism really isn't a big factor in any Asian society.

----------


## Calgary

> Originally Posted by Calgary
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by longway
> ...


Allright, I will take it that censorship is OK with you.

Just asked.

But I'm happy to see the likes of you over here LW...Shows you are a 'cut' above the others..................... I need 'foils' like you, Thaihome and others, to educate those who read these political threads. ....................Few are involved with the UDD/Red Shirts to any degree, leaving these Posts their only alternative perspective, countering the anti-UDD/Red Shirts stuff inundating them in the domestic media and over there on "_the dark side_".

----------


## Butterfly

> No, he's the kind of super wealthy Sino-Thai Northerner whose gramps was a tax farmer that needs votes to get into power; the amart they rattle on about use tanks and royalist-mystico bumpf about phudii to maintain an outmoded form of government. Just because you don't recognize the difference doesn't mean they don't.


ok there is a difference, it's just has nothing to do with democracy. So again my question stands in your apparent contradiction and interpretation of their movement, what do they really want ? another form of dictatorship based on right wing populism ? the right to choose their dictator ?




> Wow elected criminals as opposed to unelected aristocrats. Bravo to 'them'.


well put, that's basically it. Mao think choosing your dictator is what democracy is all about. Maybe he needs a lecture on political science and the foundation of democratic principles. Hint: it has nothing to do with an election or popularity.




> Yes I know I know the Amart they bad they jealous him.


that's probably closer to the truth than we think, they wish they could be as bad and manipulative as he is  :Smile: 




> Only a fool would expect a Thai democracy or a Thai pro-democracy movement to have the form and sensibilities of western liberal democracy.


that's the problem, the only form of true "demcracy" is the one we have now in the west after hundreds of years of "refinery". The Asian version is nothing more than dictatorships disguised as some version of ultra light Democracy, basically a "fake" Democracy. Very appropriate for Thailand, the hub of fake goods manufacturing.




> Liberalism really isn't a big factor in any Asian society.


indeed, they prefer fascism, it's in their blood, and they love it. We can probably blame it on their long history of strong tribal culture.

----------


## LooseBowels

> choosing your dictator is what democracy is


You can take the nutter out of the PAD, but you can't take the PAD out of the nutter :Smile: 

You can't argue with that

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
>  semi mystical mumbo jumbo allowed Thailand to develop in a polical culture that was nowhere near as brutal and repressive as it's neighbors
> 
> 
> Indeed. And dogs get the bestest birthday parties because of it.
> 
> Do you type on your knees with your head on the ground too?
> 
> ...


You have nothing to say beyond empty headed obnoxiousness have you?

Apparently as you lurch from one contradictory rationalization to another to 'explain' why the UDD don't actually do anything do progress democracy in this country,we must now believe that eradication of patronage networks is 'liberalism' and so is trying to reduce corruption and enforce the rule of law and Thais are not too bothered about anyway. It's just brainless twaddle, but that's just the standard MO for anything to do with the red shirts.

But no matter there are no better alternatives anyway that are realistically possible here, but  just don't call them 'democracy advocates'.

And in future please stop presuming to the a spokesman for Thais and give your silly little lectures on what they think and how they think, its obvious you have no special little skills in that regard.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Calgary
> ...


As long as you are happy Calgary  :Smile:

----------


## mao say dung

> And in future please stop presuming to the a spokesman for Thais and give your silly little lectures on what they think and how they think, its obvious you have no special little skills in that regard.


I don't actually do that, longway.

I do read a lot, however:




> Meanwhile, the tolerance of the people for corruption was high in  Thailand, scoring 8 out of 10. But the country was outscored by  Indonesia (9), the Philippines (8.2) and Vietnam (8.14). Again,  Singapore came out best in Asean with the least tolerance against  corruption of 0.71, followed by Malaysia (5.91).
> 
>  Poldech *cited* research of several *decades* ago *pointing out* that Thai people were not *closely knit* *in terms** of* *social cohesion* and were less *nationalistic* than Japan, South Korea and China. The Thai people did not care so much about *the public good*.Other Thai *traits* that *foster* corruption are *client*-*patron* *relationships*, *power** centralisation* and a *carefree* *attitude*. Most Thais are more *concerned* with their daily lives and having fun. They are easily *bored* and *indifferent* towards corruption by politicians and *bureaucrats*.
> 
>  The tolerance for corruption *permeates* throughout all sectors of society and the *community*. Even the *judiciary* and *independent* organisations are no *exception*. So it is not surprising when one hears of these organisations being *mired in* corruption *allegations*.


There are many studies of attitudes toward corruption in Thailand and most find that, as I said, Thais do not have the same attitudes that folks from liberal-democracies have. Do your own search if you're interested.

I didn't suggest that 


> eradication of patronage networks is 'liberalism'


; I just said that Thais don't look at such things in the same way that folks from liberal democracies do. 

Asians in general, likely because of their more group-oriented values, political and other, don't have the attitudes toward patronage that many "western" people do. And, yes, I do think that our inclination toward liberalism and its emphasis on the individual as the focus of value is likely the source of the difference.




> But no matter there are no better alternatives anyway that are realistically possible here


Your certainty about such things is exemplary. You get that from a fortune-teller or from your indoctrination into the cult of mumbo-jumbo as initiated by Sarit so long ago?

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> And in future please stop presuming to the a spokesman for Thais and give your silly little lectures on what they think and how they think, its obvious you have no special little skills in that regard.
> 
> 
> I don't actually do that, longway.
> 
> I do read a lot, however:
> 
> ...


Look thicko there is a difference between tolerance and acceptance, work it out from there.

You just go every which way jumping around from one lame bunch of bs
 to another to try and justify why the UDD don't do anything to advance democracy in thailand. I don't need your silly lectures to know that people think differently in asia. It's why I choose to live here.

As for the last, you really have nothing beyond being obnoxious do you, if can't answer something just be obnoxious instead and imply some kind of superiority.

----------


## mao say dung

> I don't need your silly lectures to know that people think differently in asia. It's why I choose to live here.


And yet... and yet... you don't seem to be able to accept (or is it tolerate?) the rather obvious difference that that thinking must make in styles of democracy that have and will emerge[d] in Asia. 

You have chosen to live in a country where the majority of voters support the idea of democracy and where their democratic choice of leader is Thaksin. 

Enjoy.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> I don't need your silly lectures to know that people think differently in asia. It's why I choose to live here.
> 
> 
> And yet... and yet... you don't seem to be able to accept (or is it tolerate?) the rather obvious difference that that thinking must make in styles of democracy that have and will emerge[d] in Asia. 
> 
> You have chosen to live in a country where the majority of voters support the idea of democracy and where their democratic choice of leader is Thaksin. 
> 
> Enjoy.


Are you really this thick?





> My copy is stashed away somewhere with my other Rajprasong memorabilia. They had 4 main goals:
> 
> 1.a democratic state with a constitutional monarchy in which power belongs to the people
> 2. a fair and just state, a legal state with a fair judicial system; the double standards thing
> 3. bring back the 97 constitution to be revised and amended
> 4. a free capitalist state in which inequality can be addressed by taking economic power out of the hands of the oligarchy
> 
> They made clear their support for and defense of Thaksin and their sense of injustice in his treatment etc....



It's got nothing to do with what I do or do not accept, something which you don't have a clue about, yet pontificate about it endlessly, just as you do about Thais. Nor has it anything to do with a 'democratic styles'

The question posed was what does the UDD do other than support the PT. They have made these 4 goals not me. What do they do to achieve them? Anything? Still waiting for you or anyone to come up with something.

----------


## mao say dung

> What do they do to achieve them?


In your experience, what do protest groups usually do to achieve their goals?

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> What do they do to achieve them?
> 
> 
> In your experience, what do protest groups usually do to achieve their goals?


Oh it's a protest group now is it? Not activists, advocates or a movement?  And back the to  circular argument again to avoid a straight answer.

This is why myself and 86% of Thais, 95% of whom prefer democracy as their chosen form of government do not identify with the UDD, which makes them alot smarter than you, so please don't try to be their spokesman again.

----------


## mao say dung

OK... so what do activists, advocates or movements generally do to achieve their goals? In your experience...

----------


## longway

> OK... so what do activists, advocates or movements generally do to achieve their goals? In your experience...


 Something other than support a corrupt political party controlled by proxy by a convicted criminal bleeding the country dry with corrupt scams while him and his cronies strive for unfettered power  and try to be above the law. 

But perhaps I am just intolerant of his democratic style.

You asked me this same question before and I gave you a straightforward answer. Any chance you will answer a question in return in a straightforward way, or will you just continue with your tired old obnoxious prevaricating.

----------


## mao say dung

I wasn't asking about people who who refuse to support the Dem/Military/Palace status quo... I want you to say something about what activists, advocates or movements (let's say "pro-democracy a, a or m) usually do in your experience.

----------


## longway

^ so you are going to continue to avoid giving an answer. I asked you a question a long time ago, and answered one of your questions in the meantime, which led to an irrelevant detour, but you still refuse to answer it, and continue to obfuscate.

Pretty obnoxious as usual.

Nothing beneath the veneer of obnoxiousness is there? a hollow shell of an intellectual position.

----------


## mao say dung

Sorry, longway, but you really are a clown. 

This whole phase of this interminable thread revolves around the assertion that UDD is not a democracy "activist, advocate or movement" movement. You have gone on about what they don't do, which you would like to pretend means they aren't a....

I've pointed out that democracy advocate/protest/activist movements are NOT governments and therefore not in a position to do the things you quite rightly point out that they don't do/haven't done.

So now I'd like to know what you think such movements do in fact do.

It's simple really.

So it ought to be a match.

Go for it.

----------


## longway

> Sorry, longway, but you really are a clown. 
> 
> This whole phase of this interminable thread revolves around the assertion that UDD is not a democracy "activist, advocate or movement" movement. You have gone on about what they don't do, which you would like to pretend means they aren't a....
> 
> I've pointed out that democracy advocate/protest/activist movements are NOT governments and therefore not in a position to do the things you quite rightly point out that they don't do/haven't done.
> 
> So now I'd like to know what you think such movements do in fact do.
> 
> It's simple really.
> ...



I have not gone about what they don't do, I have given you an example of one thing they could do.

It is interminable as is your obnoxious bs. Is there anything that the UDD does beside support the PT? It's very simple, give it a shot. 

You answer my question, then I will answer your question. I have already had the courtesy of answering one of your questions, I already know what you are trying to imply, but I find your assertion ludicrous.

So answer mine first then i deal with yours.

----------


## mao say dung

Given your incredibly powerful logic, it's really very difficult to do so, longway. 

Every time someone points out that they've done such things as mount a months-long 100K+ person protest to demand those 4 things I pointed out, you come up with the clever rejoinder "No they didn't!!! They did it for Thaksin and PT". I can only assume that pointing out their memorial demonstrations, their demands that prisoners be released or at least charged etc... will be analysed with the same subtlety and intelligence. "No they haven't. It's just for PT and Thaksin."

It comes down to their stated intentions, their clear impact on the political climate in Thailand, and the wide variety of individuals and groups that make up the UDD with the range of positions they represent versus your "No they don't. It's all for PT and Thaksin."

Have a good day.

----------


## longway

^ wow Mao say dumb finally answers a simple question.

First of all I have never given the rejoinder to an answer of yours that's it's all for thaksin, because until now, you have done everything you can to avoid answering a straightforward question.

And now after all that you come up with the Incredibly murky events of rajaprasong, and want to assert that any connection between that and thaksin is unfair in you customary obnoxious way.

That's it, then that's all you got? That and memorial events, and a still unclear impact on thailand's political climate.

That's fine, good bye dickhead.

----------


## Butterfly

> Oh it's a protest group now is it? Not activists, advocates or a movement? And back the to circular argument again to avoid a straight answer.


don't expect a straight answer, Mao is a contradictory ignorant fool, probably got lost in Thailand as an English teacher

He is just another intellectually dishonest farang, IMO




> Something other than support a corrupt political party controlled by proxy by a convicted criminal bleeding the country dry with corrupt scams while him and his cronies strive for unfettered power and try to be above the law.
> 
> But perhaps I am just intolerant of his democratic style.


Bravo !!!

----------


## BKKBoet

> Can't imagine why you think they "can't see" any of that. They are Thai and patronage and corruption are apparently not judged as harshly by most Thais as they are by people from liberal democracies. This tends to be true throughout Asia. Only a fool would expect a Thai democracy or a Thai pro-democracy movement to have the form and sensibilities of western liberal democracy. Liberalism really isn't a big factor in any Asian society.


I am always amused at the hypocracy of some people on this site when these sort of statements come up. They are outraged about coups and 'unelected' governments as it goes against the model of western style democracy, but quite easily condone  patronage and corruction as it is ''the Asian way'. Hilarious.

What most don't understand, is that to do away with the former,you have to start with rooting out the latter. That is how the western style democracies managed to become what they are today; strong laws that are enforced and applicable to all.

----------


## Calgary

> There are many studies of attitudes toward corruption in Thailand and most find that, as I said, Thais do not have the same attitudes that folks from liberal-democracies have. Do your own search if you're interested.


Isn't that the truth.

I am often amazed, as to the reaction from Thai's, when instances of obvious corruption are brought to their attention.

To be more specific, in this instance I am speaking of an educated Thai, a fierce Democracy advocate, a leading political demonstrator who lived on the streets during R'song, was one of the final ones to exit Wat Patom (sp?), would be considered a hard-core Red Shirt as the domestic media tries to denigrate those holding strong political views.........................but when faced with this obvious corruption, there is voiced opposition but never the 'hellfire reaction' there is to the Amart and its' coupist excesses.

Continues to amaze me. 

Where are the famous 'muckrakers' who challenged Govts. in the early 19th. century.

----------


## Calgary

> You just go every which way jumping around from one lame bunch of bs
>  to another to try and justify why the UDD don't do anything to advance democracy in thailand


You repetitively say the same thing over and over LW, the bit about the UDD doing nothing to advance Democracy.

In addition to MSD's thoughtful and factually supported counter to it, and my lengthy Post countering it as well, you blithely ignore all of that, and just repeat it over and over.

That is why I say, "foils' like you are necessary to elicit reasoned and factual Posts that reasonable people on this Board will read and be informed by.

The likes of you however, who are hopelesly indoctrinated by the propagandist media, and part of the enforced _'group think'_ over there on the dark side, would never understand.

To accept such thinking, would seriously damage self-esteem built upon the construction of political realities as advanced by the propagandistic media, and internalized as gospel. To question such an understanding now, would put the lie to all that you have held near and dear for so long.

That would be painful.

----------


## Mr Lick

> You repetitively say the same thing over and over LW,


 :mid:   :irish:

----------


## mao say dung

> What most don't understand, is that to do away with the former,you have to start with rooting out the latter. That is how the western style democracies managed to become what they are today; strong laws that are enforced and applicable to all.


Besides the massive literature on democratization, a free-for-all of competing theories that rarely come out with this sort of pat oversimplification, and the rather simple historical fact that this is patently not the case, is there some special crystal ball that one can lay hands on to arrive at this conclusion?

Sounds like someone gets his sense of political history from TV and the Illustrated Classics series of comic books.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> You just go every which way jumping around from one lame bunch of bs
>  to another to try and justify why the UDD don't do anything to advance democracy in thailand
> 
> 
> You repetitively say the same thing over and over LW, the bit about the UDD doing nothing to advance Democracy.
> 
> In addition to MSD's thoughtful and factually supported counter to it, and my lengthy Post countering it as well, you blithely ignore all of that, and just repeat it over and over.
> ...



Neither you nor Mao say dumb have any idea what I believe, but it will not stop either of you pontificating about it.

Your writing style is difficult to interpret. I read that post  2-3 times before I got a handle on some of what you are saying.

However I don't think you answered the question, you make the point of politisation of a large cross section of people, but that is not something the UDD does, but something that occurred as a result of the coup, nor do I think that the one eyed potted history of thailand that I see you espouse as advancing democracy in this country, if this what the reds by and large buy into.

As for mao say dumb's bs, he singularly failed to come up with a single example of the UDD doing some other than support the PT. It does not mean that the UDD are a homogenous organization completely orchestrtated by thaksin though, or that the people who participate in it believe themselves to be part of a democracy movement, and give their lives in it's cause.

What I would like to see is evidence from a movement, group, advocates, activists, that calls itself pro democracy show some evidence of putting it's grass roots supporters first and the Nais and elites within it second. Some bs  excuses about 'asianess' prevent ANY sign of the above, is just bs.

What I do see in plain sight however is the move to reconciliation and amnesty, which exactly about the same old shit that has gone on Thailand before, the grass roots get screwed, while the elites cut a deal.

What will happen when the penny drops for the red shirt grass roots?

----------


## sabang

> he singularly failed to come up with a single example of the UDD doing some other than support the PT


There are actually a few examples, including opposing PT 'party machine' picked political contenders with their own choices, and a virtual boycott of the Pathum Thani by election because the previous PT incumbent was adjudged pretty ineffectual during the floods. The UDD is by no means homogenous, and it's emerging tensions with PT, particularly PT's more 'patrician' Parliamentarians such as Chalerm, and indeed within it's own ranks- the Bangkok/ rural divide for example- are and will be of interest. It does rather look like the UDD is here to stay, although I suppose several will make that call after Thaksin has returned.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> Oh it's a protest group now is it? Not activists, advocates or a movement? And back the to circular argument again to avoid a straight answer.
> 
> 
> don't expect a straight answer, Mao is a contradictory ignorant fool, probably got lost in Thailand as an English teacher
> 
> He is just another intellectually dishonest farang, IMO
> 
> ...


He talked to some red shirts and fell in love with them, perhaps even married to one. Calgary has for sure.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
>  he singularly failed to come up with a single example of the UDD doing some other than support the PT
> 
> 
> There are actually a few examples, including opposing PT 'party machine' picked political contenders with their own choices, and a virtual boycott of the Pathum Thani by election because the previous PT incumbent was adjudged pretty ineffectual during the floods. The UDD is by no means homogenous, and it's emerging tensions with PT, particularly PT's more 'patrician' Parliamentarians such as Chalerm, and indeed within it's own ranks- the Bangkok/ rural divide for example- are and will be of interest. It does rather look like the UDD is here to stay, although I suppose several will make that call after Thaksin has returned.


There are a few little encouraging signs lately, but it doesn't mean until now Thaksin and the PT have driven the agenda through lies, money and patronage networks.

----------


## Calgary

> '*................you make the point of politisation of a large cross section of people, but that is not something the UDD does, but something that occurred as a result of the coup,*




Again, Farangs pontificating about the UDD/Red Shirts when their only perceptions are what the Domestic media and "The Dark Side" have hammered home to them, day-after-day.

To say the UDD has had little to do with the politicization of this huge political block is ludicrous.................What, the coup did it?....Huh?

Granted, the coup precipitated the formulation of the UDD/Red Shirts, but then the politicization evolved over time after that via the frequent and ever-growing rallies of the UDD. All of this was augmented by Red Shirt Television outlets that also sprouted up along with the UDD.

The Amart media's studious avoidance of reporting on all this snow-balling activity after the 2006 coup did the country a great disservice. 

I attended many, many of these rallies, both regionally and those that gravitated to Bangkok. Given that exposure, I was amused when the Media couldn't avoid reporting the large Bangkok rallies, with the story that the Red Shirts were gathering for their occasional rallies. Suggesting the Bangkok activity was the only thing happening.

So I can say unequivocally that the UDD was singularly responsible for the politicization of the anti-amart political movement. An unintended consequence of the coup which I am sure the Amart has regretted to this day. Had they refrained form the coup power grab, their grip on Political life may have been maintained. Now they are faced with committed and knowledgable political blocks. No matter how much they try to denigrate them out-of-their-reality, wont work.

----------


## longway

^ still not answering the question, there is a politisation the the UDD took it's roots from and then as you say driven,but how does any of that show them doing something other than drumming up support for the PT?

----------


## sabang

I did answer the question in a previous post, just above. Given that UDD were formed in the aftermath of an illegal and unConstitutional military ouster of Thailands first re-elected PM, who also gained Thailands first absolute electoral majority, their support of Thaksin is hardly surprising- after all, that was the peoples democratic vote. Of equal interest now are tensions with the PT party machine, and we will just have to see how they evolve- but PT would be stupid to ignore them, as they have already demonstrated.

----------


## longway

^ the point is until now at least, it's been subservient to the PT, whatever the internal complexities, in name it calls itself a pro democracy movement, in action there very little it does beyond support the PT. It seems to serve it's elites just as any other political grouping in Thailand, no sign of it going the other way for once.

what happens in the future, well that's to be seen. I would like to see what the various shadowy groupings that make up the reds really are.

----------


## mao say dung

> What I would like to see is evidence from a movement, group, advocates, activists, that calls itself pro democracy show some evidence of putting it's grass roots supporters first and the Nais and elites within it second.


I begin to understand the source of your apparent confusion: you confuse the Red leadership with the Reds. When I talk about the Reds, I'm talking about the Reds. When I want to say something about Jatuporn or Thida, I say it about them.

It's also clear that you think of the UDD as somehow cognate with PT. They're not.

Like Calgary, I think of UDD as a vast sprawling network of people, and like all VSoNs, made up of a variety of folks, some good, some bad, some flagrant assholes.

As unwilling or unable as many are to see it, the Red "grassroots" do not just blindly follow where anyone, including Thaksin, leads. 

I was at Rajprasong when the leaders up on stage announced that they were considering Abhisit's infamous "offer", and the boos and obvious distaste expressed by the crowd confirmed my sense, as did my interactions with a couple of Red ladies I got to know through my wife (who is NOT a red), that there was a clear difference between the politics of the leaders and the passions of the crowd.

I've seen people on these boards go on and on about how the UDD leadership's rejection of that offer was stupid and led to the deaths later on, and how it was, therefore, another example of the people being sacrificed by their venal leaders. It was bullshit then and it's bullshit now when UDD or Reds is used to talk only about a few leaders or Thaksin.

The thing that keeps me interested in this particular phase of Thai history is my hope/belief that the Reds will keep on keeping on. I expect fissures and splits and a definite diminuition in numbers, at least for  a while, because there are Reds who will be more than satisfied just to have Thaksin back and a PT government in place. 

When PT gets more comfortable and starts showing more of what I hated about Thaksin when he was in power, I suspect there will be more than enough Reds to start to take them on.

When you say you "would like to see" blah-blah-blah, you, like so many of your ilk, are just bullshitting; if you cannot now and have not seen that evidence, you never will. Maybe try reading a bit. Or go out and talk to some Reds. I suggest you double up on the Depends if you choose to go the 2nd route.

----------


## Calgary

[QUOTE="sabang"]*It does rather look like the UDD is here to stay, although I suppose several will make that call after Thaksin has returned.[/QUOTE*]

There is no doubt about that in my mind.

Both Natthawut and Jatuporn have been heard to say that regardless what functions they my serve in the PTP adminstrations, they will remain a 'Red Shirt" for their life.

It is also a fact that the UDD/Red Shirts far exceed the personage of Thaksin. If Thaksin should inexplicably advocate the termination of the UDD/red Shirts, he would be cast aside so quickly, it would make your head swim. I also heard Abhi. call for dissolution of the UDD when fearfully speaking of the Red Shirt Villages. Goes to show how much out-of-touch he is, contemplating such a thing as being realistically possible.

Don't believe the Amart and their media mantra about the UDD/Red Shirts being a Thaksin appendage exclusively. That is just part of their agenda to denigrate this political force they fear. 

The only hope that the Amart has, if this Movement and the PTP splinters into groups that are antagonistic to each other. They are by no means homogenous as Sabang mentions, but not in a competitive, antagonistic way.

The Amart, Abhi., the pro-coupist murderers, the Democrat party plus other institutions are the greatest unifyer any political Movement could ask for.

Unless one is involved, one doesn't appreciate the camaradery and affinity Red Shirts have for each other. They have all been beaten on by the Amart and their Media, have political machinations go against them like the artificial elevation of Abhi., murders of their brothers, sisters, mothers and fathers at R'song, etc. etc. One can go anywhere in the country and when meeting a Red Shirt, he/she is an immediate close friend.

That cohesiveness will only strengthen over time. The alternative would be significant diminshment for them under the relentless assault of the Amart, their accolytes and media, and they all know it.

----------


## mao say dung

> Given that UDD were formed in the aftermath of an illegal and unConstitutional military ouster of Thailands first re-elected PM,


Given that longway believes (and I mean this in the religious sense) that the Palace and Military are the protectors/creators of democracy in Thailand, this point won't mean much. In this he is like the rest of them.

----------


## Calgary

> "still not answering the question..............,


And I never will LW. If you accepted anything I said as an answer, would undermine your determined agenda to denigrate the UDD/Red Shirts.

I understand fully, to be caught up in the web of that group-think elsewhere, and step out of it the next minute, over here.

Reasonable people will read the answers you received from a number of Posters, including Sabang, MSD and draw their own conclusions.

----------


## Calgary

> *He talked to some red shirts and fell in love with them, perhaps even married to one. Calgary has for sure*





I am reminded of another anti-Red Shirt Poster protesting that he is not a PADite when accused as such.

I believe him, even though I will continue to call him a PADite.

To be unreservedly anti-Red Shirt means one is unreservedly on the other side of the political divide. 

I would be embarassed to be over there. I can see why they would want to distance themselves from PADites. But when over there, calling them PADites is an easy way to identify their leanings. It is just easier than saying AMART-ites.

When over there, their sympathies link them to murderous coupists, the Fascist PAD, the group-think 'dark side', the propagandist media, other tainted institutions..............all of them very unsavoury, unelectable and with deep-seated anti-democratic impulses. 

Even the PAD tries to disassociate themselves, from themselves. They pretend to be different colours, and use every other means to hide themselves behind faux networks and groupings of every description, other than the PAD, while promoting their undemocratic agenda's.

I'm glad I am not over there, and ashamed of it.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> What I would like to see is evidence from a movement, group, advocates, activists, that calls itself pro democracy show some evidence of putting it's grass roots supporters first and the Nais and elites within it second.
> 
> 
> I begin to understand the source of your apparent confusion: you confuse the Red leadership with the Reds. When I talk about the Reds, I'm talking about the Reds. When I want to say something about Jatuporn or Thida, I say it about them.
> 
> It's also clear that you think of the UDD as somehow cognate with PT. They're not.
> 
> ...


I live in rajaprasong and talked to plenty thanks, I like them too. 

I have no confusion about the average red shirt and it's leadership. Though you and Calgary clearly do.

If you actually had pulled your head out of your arse while at the red rallies you would have noticed that they spent weeks if not months whipping up the protesters into paranoia and hatred, it's not surprising that you would get boos. Just the mention of abhisit's name would result in hisses and catcalls. 

That was the time to talk them down and work out tactics to get the pro testers to disperse peacefully, that they did not coupled with a long sequence of events that led the protesters into rajaprasong shows the cynicism with which they were sacrificed.

It's interesting how all the leaders came out of it completely unscathed and are now doing very well thanks.

Things are far more complex than your cut and dried inanities.

The thing is you don't know anything really, you just think you do.

----------


## mao say dung

> Things are far more complex than my cut and dried inanities.


Fixed that for you.    :Smile:

----------


## Calgary

[QUOTE="longway") [B][U][B][U]I live in rajaprasong and talked to plenty thanks, I like them too  [/U][/B][/U][/B][/QUOTE]

Come on LW, I thought I cured you of that.....I live close by and now have all this insight.

You didn't talk to plenty of them, because they are a unilingual orgainization. At most, you may have wandered through that area one day, but to claim an understanding of them as a result is ludicrous.

Your discussions about the UDD/Red Shirts demonstrate clearly you don't have a clue about them....Well, maybe a tad strong....but essentially, you have no idea beyond what the media and your [I]'dark side' [/I]friends have drilled into your head.

Why do I know this?....because I am immersed in them day-in-day-out, including during R'song and the time they spent under fire in Wat Pathum (sp?) That immersion shows up the anti-red shirt narrative pretending to be knowledgable as total fakery.

[/B][/I][/B][QUOTE="longway"] "...........*at the red rallies you would have noticed that they spent weeks if not months whipping up the protesters into paranoia and hatred, it's not surprising that you would get boos. Just the mention of abhisit's name would result in hisses and catcalls.  
*
Yeah they were being politicised to be sure. And the coup precipitated it. To put politicization and education in such a negative light, is just so much more of the Amart arrogance. Contemptuously depriving the UDD/Red Shirt of their political space.

This follows the same line of propaganda by your political soulmates, as they try to characterize those citizens who stood up to their coup at R'song, as being a radicalized, anarchic rabble......All of that because they objected to a coup.

In that vein, how would one characterise the murderous coupists?.....actually, I just did!

----------


## Calgary

> whipping up the protesters into paranoia and hatred,


Not a problem after a coup stole their Government.

Especially not a problem after the pro-coupists began killing them.

Just some more Amart propaganda characterizing those who stood up to them in R'song, as being "haters and paranoia' people. 

The elections showed who was validated, and who was repudiated. 

Unfortunately it doesn't return those who were killed by Abhi and company.

And the Amart thinks they can drive a wedge in the unity within the UDD/Red Shirts after that.....Not a hope.

----------


## Butterfly

> I was at Rajprasong when the leaders up on stage announced that they were considering Abhisit's infamous "offer", and the boos and obvious distaste expressed by the crowd confirmed my sense, as did my interactions with a couple of Red ladies I got to know through my wife (who is NOT a red), that there was a clear difference between the politics of the leaders and the passions of the crowd.
> 
> I've seen people on these boards go on and on about how the UDD leadership's rejection of that offer was stupid and led to the deaths later on, and how it was, therefore, another example of the people being sacrificed by their venal leaders. It was bullshit then and it's bullshit now when UDD or Reds is used to talk only about a few leaders or Thaksin.
> 
> The thing that keeps me interested in this particular phase of Thai history is my hope/belief that the Reds will keep on keeping on. I expect fissures and splits and a definite diminuition in numbers, at least for a while, because there are Reds who will be more than satisfied just to have Thaksin back and a PT government in place.
> 
> When PT gets more comfortable and starts showing more of what I hated about Thaksin when he was in power, I suspect there will be more than enough Reds to start to take them on.


MSD, let me put it this way in polite terms, you are a dreaming delusional fool  :Smile: 

move to Issaan with Sabang, you two would do a loving couple of Reds farangs  :Razz: 




> The thing is you don't know anything really, you just think you do.


that's what I am thinking too, with his little rant above, Mao is just another calgary, more calm and articulate but as ignorant and foolish.

----------


## mao say dung

> MSD, let me put it this way in polite terms, you are a dreaming delusional fool


Bolstered yet again by rational argument and supported by facts: "monkey... monkey fascist... monkey monkey, and obviously fascist monkey..."   :Smile:

----------


## Calgary

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> MSD, let me put it this way in polite terms, you are a dreaming delusional fool
> 
> 
> Bolstered yet again by rational argument and supported by facts: "monkey... monkey fascist... monkey monkey, and obviously fascist monkey..."


Damn, that's a funny line.....But you forgot..._Thaksin bad_....

----------


## Butterfly

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> MSD, let me put it this way in polite terms, you are a dreaming delusional fool
> 
> 
> Bolstered yet again by rational argument and supported by facts: "monkey... monkey fascist... monkey monkey, and obviously fascist monkey..."


that's the problem, this is your only line of defense

"we are not about Thaksin", the more you say it, the more you guys sounds suspicious and dishonest

Mao, let's be honest, you like fascism and that's why you support the reds because supporting the reds base is supporting Thaksin, and all they want is fascism by their chosen leader

it's really that simple,

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by mao say dung
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Butterfly
> ...


oh dear. never got it right in uni then. fascism then is... off with boring bits... anything you or sd disagree with.

----------


## mao say dung

One of my favourite lecturers at uni was a poli-sci guy who had a big Nixon portrait up in his office... never mentioned the monkey-fascist nexus at all.

Maybe not as smart as he seemed.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> Things are far more complex than my cut and dried inanities.
> 
> 
> Fixed that for you.


I think I know who you are, I saw you at rajaprasong a couple of times. You are the pony tailed farang I saw wandering around wearing a beret and a truth today neckerchief.

Calgary and you, the classic middle class western liberals looking for meaning in their lives, so lost in Asian 3rd world politics, you don't know which way is up anymore.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by sabang
> 
> Given that UDD were formed in the aftermath of an illegal and unConstitutional military ouster of Thailands first re-elected PM,
> 
> 
> Given that longway believes (and I mean this in the religious sense) that the Palace and Military are the protectors/creators of democracy in Thailand, this point won't mean much. In this he is like the rest of them.


The birth if he UDD goes well beyond this trite little line.

As ever you don't have a clue what i believe, I don't think it's a coincidence you are deluded on quite a few other things, your head has been wedged up your arse far so long it's become stuck in there.

----------


## longway

[QUOTE=Calgary;2092345]


> "...........*at the red rallies you would have noticed that they spent weeks if not months whipping up the protesters into paranoia and hatred, it's not surprising that you would get boos. Just the mention of abhisit's name would result in hisses and catcalls.  
> *
> Yeah they were being politicised to be sure. And the coup precipitated it. To put politicization and education in such a negative light, is just so much more of the Amart arrogance. Contemptuously depriving the UDD/Red Shirt of their political space.
> 
> This follows the same line of propaganda by your political soulmates, as they try to characterize those citizens who stood up to their coup at R'song, as being a radicalized, anarchic rabble......All of that because they objected to a coup.
> 
> In that vein, how would one characterise the murderous coupists?.....actually, I just did!


When I say the UDD I am talking about them on an organizational level. Individual reds I don't have any real issues with. 

I told you several times, I live at rajaprasong, I walked up with the reds to the silom intersection on the day they took over rajaprasong.

I was surrounded by the reds everyday for several weeks, and unlike you I can speak Thai.

There is your average red, then there are the shady elements that actually wield power in the UDD organization, and there are the well known leaders of the UDD, and then there the undeniable connection with the PT, to the point where they seem to drive the UDD agenda at an organizational Level(just to make clear for you dunderheads)

Then there are the connection with the royal Thai police. The leastimportant of them all is the average red shirt, they just used to further the agenda of the groups that actually wield power the UDD.

Whats interesting for me is what will happen when the average Red shirt wakes up.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> whipping up the protesters into paranoia and hatred,
> 
> 
> Not a problem after a coup stole their Government.
> 
> Especially not a problem after the pro-coupists began killing them.
> 
> ...


There has been alot of hatred stirred up, quite dangerous really, especially the red shirts feel they have been betrayed once again.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> What I would like to see is evidence from a movement, group, advocates, activists, that calls itself pro democracy show some evidence of putting it's grass roots supporters first and the Nais and elites within it second.
> 
> 
> I begin to understand the source of your apparent confusion: you confuse the Red leadership with the Reds. When I talk about the Reds, I'm talking about the Reds. When I want to say something about Jatuporn or Thida, I say it about them.
> 
> It's also clear that you think of the UDD as somehow cognate with PT. They're not.
> 
> ...



You say nothing here that I don't know already, but your belief that because there were boos and cat calls to abhisit 'infamous' offer of an honorable compromise given twice, once while the reds were at the strongest and once more after they invaded chulalongpkorn hospital and lost alot if public sympathy, the red leaders had no choice but to carry on is just the opinion of a guy with his head up his arse, as it excludes so much else.

And then of course there were early elections anyway, with a peaceful and orderly transfer of power, with the PT taking 6 weeks+ before they actually took over from him.

And now of course it's gone from truth and justice about what happened to money and amnesty, with the UDD ( at an organisational level, just to make it clear as you are a nitwit) keeping very silent.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
>  "still not answering the question..............,
> 
> 
> And I never will LW. If you accepted anything I said as an answer, would undermine your determined agenda to denigrate the UDD/Red Shirts.
> 
> I understand fully, to be caught up in the web of that group-think elsewhere, and step out of it the next minute, over here.
> 
> Reasonable people will read the answers you received from a number of Posters, including Sabang, MSD and draw their own conclusions.


I have still not receive an answer from you or Mao say dumb. Sabang made a point that lately in the prathum Thani elections the local red shirts stayed away in droves to indicate their displeasure with a PT candidate's shenanigans. Well good for them, but it's not clear whether this is something you can attribute to the UDD as an organization.

In Chiangmai, from what I understand the local red shirts are split with he UDD leadership on which candidates to field. What ever the case, it's still very little compare to the resources and tactics deployed to support the PT and thaksin.

----------


## Calgary

> Whats interesting for me is what will happen when the average Red shirt wakes up.


They are awake....you are not.

The domestic media has you so wrapped up in their agenda, you are so far behind, you think you are first.

The Red Shirts have a T-shirt with a large eyeball on it, depicting that their eyes are open now.

You can't wear that LW, as it would be misleading.

----------


## Mr Lick

> The Red Shirts have a T-shirt with a large eyeball on it, depicting that their eyes are open now.


Well, just one of them perhaps  :Smile:

----------


## Calgary

> Originally Posted by Calgary
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by longway
> ...


Yes, the coupists are experts at stirring up hatred. Everything from their 2006 coup, killings at R'song and killing Cambodians at the border.

A lovely bunch they are.

----------


## Calgary

*QUOTE="longway"] abhisit 'infamous' offer of an honorable compromise given twice,[/QUOTE]
Infamous for its' mafia nature. It was an offer, not an agreement. 
*
That was 'honorable' to give an offer twice, before killing them for accepting the offer subject to some modification. 

The audacity of those lesser lights demanding 'modification' of an offer, from him and his ilk, the almighty ones.

Honorable indeed. 

I can tell he didn't kill your mother, father, son or daughter to defend a guy like that, and those who authorized the R'song killings.




> *after they invaded chulalongpkorn hospital and lost alot if public sympathy*,


Invading a _'bastion of PADite intrigue_" did not lose public sympathy. Only pissed of the PADites for being challenged in their _'den of iniquity'_.

[QUOTE="longway"]*And then of course there were early elections anyway, with a peaceful and orderly transfer of power

*Yeah, after killing those demanding a reversal of his coup. 

There should have been an election called, with dates and Parliamentary dissolution during the R'song anti-coup demonstrations. 

Trying to ignore this electoral majority was "_tyranny of the minority_" at its' fullest.

----------


## Mid

meanwhile those who steadfastly maintain that the Reds are nothing but T drones may wish to explain this one ?

_The Pheu Thai Party has suffered its third election defeat in two weeks  when its candidate lost to a Bhumjaithai Party rival in Saturday's race  for the Chiang Rai mayoral seat._

PT loses Chiang Mai mayoralty | Bangkok Post: breakingnews

damn if that doesn't look like independent thought  :mid:

----------


## hazz

You could have explained the by-election losses as voter apathy, something which affects most governments with decent majorities in parliament. but when you loose for  the third time, on a 60% turn out, where you cannot even use the excuse of a split vote caused by two UDD candidates; its a message from the voters.

The optimist in me says its a message from the voters saying "don't take us for granted", but the nialist in me realises they voted for bjt and the message might be more like, "next time bring a bigger wallet"

----------


## Mid

_always look on the bright side of life_  :Smile:

----------


## Calgary

> meanwhile those who steadfastly maintain that the Reds are nothing but T drones may wish to explain this one ?
> 
> _The Pheu Thai Party has suffered its third election defeat in two weeks  when its candidate lost to a Bhumjaithai Party rival in Saturday's race  for the Chiang Rai mayoral seat._
> 
> PT loses Chiang Mai mayoralty | Bangkok Post: breakingnews
> 
> damn if that doesn't look like interdependent thought


And they will lose another one in Chiang Mai.

They need to get themselves sorted out about a nomination process everyone can buy into.

I heard the story about Red Shirts going to the PTP official in Chiang Mai with a list of candidates they approved of.

They were summarily dismissed, with the indication that the PTP had already made its' selection.

A selection based on who they knew, not what they knew, with the chosen candidate being an old guard uninvolved with previous Red Shirt struggles.

I also understand this has pitted the local Red Shirts against Thaksin's selection. 

Like I said, they'd better sort it out.

----------


## hazz

> _always look on the bright side of life_


well they do say that there is nothing more dangerous than an a clever sheep

----------


## BKKBoet

> meanwhile those who steadfastly maintain that the Reds are nothing but T drones may wish to explain this one ?
> 
> _The Pheu Thai Party has suffered its third election defeat in two weeks  when its candidate lost to a Bhumjaithai Party rival in Saturday's race  for the Chiang Rai mayoral seat._
> 
> PT loses Chiang Mai mayoralty | Bangkok Post: breakingnews
> 
> damn if that doesn't look like independent thought


This is great to see. You can't deny that the UDD was set up and funded by Thaksin to pursue his own personal agenda and at the time this aligned with the goals of the "Red Shirts" however now that the PTP is in power the Red Shirts are realizing that they have been duped and have just swapped one set of Bangkok masters for another and they have been marginalized. Will be very interesting to see how PTP handles this.

----------


## Calgary

> Originally Posted by Mid
> 
> 
> meanwhile those who steadfastly maintain that the Reds are nothing but T drones may wish to explain this one ?
> 
> _The Pheu Thai Party has suffered its third election defeat in two weeks  when its candidate lost to a Bhumjaithai Party rival in Saturday's race  for the Chiang Rai mayoral seat._
> 
> PT loses Chiang Mai mayoralty | Bangkok Post: breakingnews
> 
> ...


Word-for-word from the domestic media and Opposition agenda.

The PTP and UDD are an unbeatable electoral combination. 

The domestic media and Opposition agenda are wishfully trying to exagerate internal disagreements, but disagreements in the UDD/PTP family will not help them.

As I have mentioned before, the powerful unifying force represented by the Amart will withstand all.

----------


## Butterfly

well, that's actually good news, they should have their own candidates and tell PT to fuck off

of course, Khun T could retaliate by cutting funding to some of them

tough decision,

----------


## mao say dung

Update: PT loses Chiang Rai mayoralty | Bangkok Post: breakingnews

So... which is it?

----------


## mao say dung

> now that the PTP is in power the Red Shirts are realizing that they have been duped


Why duped? They're just voting to send a message... The insistence that the UDD is nothing but a Thaksin/PT puppet, that they're all brainwashed buffaloes etc... has never been anything more than the conceit of the media and idiot farang around the web who apparently have no idea of how politics work here or anywhere else. Even those reds who ARE Thaksin acolytes and virtual worshippers are not dupes or puppets... it's how they feel and who they want in power.

----------


## Mid

> So... which is it?


Chiang Rai , Bkk Post fok'd up the earlier headline .................

----------


## mao say dung

^ When it was first tweeted I went to the article and thought... huh? only 26K votes? in Chiang Mai... where they've recently installed a thoroughly red municipal council...

Good old Bangkok Post!

----------


## longway

> *QUOTE="longway"] abhisit 'infamous' offer of an honorable compromise given twice,*


What would have happened if Abhisit had dissolved parliament immediately? Spin it how you like Ahisit was the one who compromised, the reds refused to compromise.

But of course Abhist he bad.

BTW 37% voted for the PPP. 30% voted for the democrat party.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by BKKBoet
> 
> now that the PTP is in power the Red Shirts are realizing that they have been duped
> 
> 
> Why duped? They're just voting to send a message... The insistence that the UDD is nothing but a Thaksin/PT puppet, that they're all brainwashed buffaloes etc... has never been anything more than the conceit of the media and idiot farang around the web who apparently have no idea of how politics work here or anywhere else. Even those reds who ARE Thaksin acolytes and virtual worshippers are not dupes or puppets... it's how they feel and who they want in power.


They are duped because at rajaprasong the average protester thought the rally was to bring about democracy and they could trust the people who organised the rally. There is alot of indocrination and propaganda spouted by both sides. What about Jatuporn pretending that THaksin paid off thailand's debts to the IMF from his own pocket or the infamous doctored tapes of Abhisit? Were the PAD protesters duped? How can feeling something equate to not being duped?

----------


## LooseBowels

> They are duped because at rajaprasong the average protester thought the rally was to bring about democracy and they could trust the people who organised the rally


Biggest load of shit I have perused in a while there longnose. :Smile: 
Need to get your head out of the shitter more.

Of course the average protestor was there to bring about democracy, they knew what had happened at Pattaya Asean, and Bangkok 1, when amart forces of evil attacked innocent family's protesting.

You can't argue with that.

----------


## longway

^let's see how funny the average red shirt thinks it is when they realize parts of the UDD leadership have screwed them.

----------


## LooseBowels

^ Oh I expect they get all the laughs they need outa you and the rest of the PAD yellow nutters :Smile: 

You can't argue with that

----------


## longway

^ after you post, do you flush or floss?

----------


## Calgary

> What would have happened if Abhisit had dissolved parliament immediately? Spin it how you like Ahisit was the one who compromised, the reds refused to compromise.


You are confusing "compromising" with "negotiation"

A mafia offer is not either. A mafia offer is "_accept our generous offer, or a bullet in your head....Up to you"_

Trying to spin a mafia offer as somehow equating to compromise is ludicrous.

The idiot made an offer, but then closed his ears to the response. The response was conditional acceptance with some modification. The asshole and his friends didn't consider their political opposites worthy of negotiation.

They received their come-uppance in the election, but only after they tried to kill all of those who stood in their way.

The PADite spin trying to suggest that an Abhisit offer somehow gets him off the hook for the non-negotiation and bullets, doesn't fly.

I dont have time this morning to look up the definition of _negotiation_ for you LW. 

Just keep uppermost in mind...."_An offer is not an agreement_"

Negotiation leads to an agreement, not bullets.

I can say this fact until I'm blue in the face. Because it doesn't fit your desired historical revisionism, it will be ignored.

You PADites can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all the people, all of the time.

----------


## StrontiumDog

Thitinan: From Truce to Reconciliation in Thailand - WSJ.com
OPINION ASIAMay 6, 2012, 12:06 p.m. ET*From Truce to Reconciliation in Thailand* 

*No one hovers over Thai politics quite like Thaksin.*

*By THITINAN PONGSUDHIRAK* 

Thaksin Shinawatra just can't be kept down. The Thai  military, the minority Democrat Party, and monarchists clad in yellow  and other colors all cannot stand the former prime minister. They have  jointly kept him at bay after a military coup deposed him in September  2006. But it hasn't worked. And now his fate has broader implications  for Thailand's democracy than first meet the eye.

 Mr. Thaksin's opponents convicted him on a corruption charge, which  he denies; seized $1.4 billion of his assets; dissolved his political  parties; banned his politicians from running in elections; and repressed  his red-shirt supporters. And yet the party he effectively controls,  Pheu Thai, resoundingly triumphed in the election last July. 

 Since then Yingluck Shinawatra, Mr. Thaksin's younger sister, has  governed. Under her premiership, an uneasy truce has taken hold, but  crucial steps are needed before Thailand can arrive at a genuine  reconciliation among competing political factions and the military after  years of protracted tumult.

 Under the current unspoken truce terms, the Yingluck government has  gone out of its way not to challenge the army's high command and to  ensure the monarchy remains sacrosanct in Thailand's hierarchical  society. Challenges against the monarchy must be put down through  draconian lese-majeste laws. In return, she gets to rule without the  crippling street protests by colorful royalists as happened in the  recent past and Mr. Thaksin has to remain in exile. 

 This deal is now broadening. Ms. Yingluck has proved to be a  bridge-builder. As Thailand's first female prime minister, her  even-handed temperament and disarming charm have endeared her to  establishment figures and defused tensions between them and her brother.  


EPA                 Thaksin Shinawatra waves to supporters in Laos, April 2012.

Thanks to her ability to read and cater  to the public mood, Ms. Yingluck increasingly has become a force to be  reckoned with, leaving potential opponents little choice but to go  along. By accepting Ms. Yingluck, establishment figures, particularly  Privy Council President Gen. Prem Tinsulanond and Army Commander in  Chief Gen. Prayuth Chan-ocha, have tacitly conceded their inability to  put Mr. Thaksin away for good.

 Yet Mr. Thaksin himself may still complicate Thai politics for some  time to come. He is already mobilizing supporters for a possible return  home. Over the traditional Thai New Year celebrations in mid-April, he  was in Laos and Cambodia, mobbed by tens of thousands of his red-shirt  supporters who crossed over from Thailand. It demonstrated his sticky  appeal and the resilience of his populist platform that catered to the  rural poor and urban downtrodden.

 It might appear as though his opponents have resigned themselves to  his homecoming. As Mr. Thaksin angles for a return, members of the  establishment have sent conciliatory signals. Gen. Prem warmly received  Ms. Yingluck at his residence late last month. And she was recently  awarded one of the highest royal decorations.

 But for the Democrat Party, genuine reconciliation would be  tantamount to an indefinite period in opposition. Absent any clear  policy ideas of their own, the Democrats know they'd have to wage  elections on personality—a battle that is simply unwinnable against the  charismatic Mr. Thaksin. Or they'd have to rely on another judicial  dissolution of Mr. Thaksin's party, plus the army's help to take power,  as was the case in December 2008—an option that would be as  destabilizing now as it was back then.

 And among the rank-and-file, yellow-shirted partisans fear that Mr.  Thaksin would bring revenge and retribution to those who have opposed  him in the past, and a return to his allegedly corrupt ways. Ironically,  some of Mr. Thaksin's red-shirt supporters are wary of his return for  the opposite reason—fear that a conciliatory deal to end his exile would  preclude justice for their comrades who were killed by the military in  red-shirt protests two years ago.

 While a deal among key Thai elites seems in the offing, the  color-coded masses from yellows, reds and other stripes will not stand  down easily. These powerful and organic social movements may be beyond  deactivation and dismantlement. Mr. Thaksin would betray the red shirts  if he makes a deal at their expense. Establishment figures would risk  the future of the monarchy if they openly succumb to the forces of  electoral democracy.

 Ultimately, that last point is the key factor—and the underlying  problem confronting Thailand as Mr. Thaksin plans his return. An open  and constructive environment is required to broach and discuss issues  such as Mr. Thaksin's fate. That environment isn't possible so long as  the political system operates in constant fear that establishment  intervention will short-circuit democratic politics.

 Yet right now, strict lese-majeste laws deter the debates Thailand  needs to undertake reforms and undergo an inevitable transformation in  the twilight of a 65-year reign and thereafter. In recent years, the  number of lese-majeste cases has risen dramatically from single digits  to several hundred. Such cases have become a weapon against political  opponents rather than a way to defend the monarchy's prestige.

 Thailand needs to bring its monarchy squarely within its  constitutional confines, pre-empting future coups and  extraconstitutional and extraparliamentary power plays. The best window  to recalibrate the institution of the monarchy and its attendant  privileges and perquisites is during the current reign when King  Bhumibol Adulyadej remains popular. 

 They danger is that these reforms will be delayed too long—past that  window when King Bhumibol himself can preside over the process. It is  clear now that the royalist establishment has lost the battle.  Thailand's challenge is to ensure that the winner is not Mr. Thaksin but  the strengthening of democratic institutions and the obsolescence of  military coups and extra-constitutional manipulation.


_Mr. Thitinan teaches at Chulalongkorn University in Bangkok and directs its Institute of Security and International Studies._

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> What would have happened if Abhisit had dissolved parliament immediately? Spin it how you like Ahisit was the one who compromised, the reds refused to compromise.
> 
> 
> You are confusing "compromising" with "negotiation"
> 
> A mafia offer is not either. A mafia offer is "_accept our generous offer, or a bullet in your head....Up to you"_
> 
> ...


And the clincher was that the crowd booed and hissed when told of it, so of course they had to kill dozens just so they could hold elections a year later, as opposed to 6 months later.

----------


## Calgary

> *From Truce to Reconciliation in Thailand   No one hovers over Thai politics quite like Thaksin.  By THITINAN PONGSUDHIRAK *


*
*


> Mr. Thaksin's opponents convicted him on a corruption charge, which  he denies; seized $1.4 billion of his assets; dissolved his political  parties; banned his politicians from running in elections; and repressed  his red-shirt supporters.


"_Repressed his red-shirts_"? - Is that what you call killing over 90 of them?

And all of that, because they couldn't win an election.

And in spite of all of that, there are Farangs here who sympathize with them.

Unbelievable.




> Under her premiership, an uneasy truce has taken hold


No it hasn't. Political peace reigns the land until the next election.

Opposition 'noise' does not equate to an "uneasy truce". Although in their arrogance, they would like to think otherwise.

What they are saying, is that if they are voted out of office, there will be an uneasy truce between them and the electorate - a truce they break with coups, assholes that they are




> "................after  years of protracted tumult.


There has been no protracted tumult.

There has been arrogant Amart non-acceptance of the will of the electorate, but that does not equate to 'protracted political tumult", although the Opposition would like to think otherwise.

They like to create the impression that when they are in Govt., everything is OK, but when they are losing elections, everything is in tumult and there are uneasy truces.




> Thanks to her ability to read and cater  to the public mood, Ms. Yingluck increasingly has become a force to be  reckoned with, leaving potential opponents little choice but to go  along.


But the PADites, media and idiot Farangs over on the dark side, would not acknowledge competence on her part if their life depended on it. They wouldn't say shit, if their mouth was full of it.




> It might appear as though his opponents have resigned themselves to  his homecoming."


Very difficult to characterize a coup-based exile other than coup-based.

Not an enviable position to try to defend.




> But for the Democrat Party, genuine reconciliation would be  tantamount to an indefinite period in opposition


*Yup!*




> "......his exile would  preclude justice for their comrades who were killed by the military in  red-shirt protests two years ago.


Not killed by the military, and not protests!

Killed by pro-coupist forces and standing up to coupists.




> Establishment figures would risk  the future of the monarchy if they openly succumb to the forces of  electoral democracy.


Hasn't affected Queen Lizzie.

Just their 'red herring' for not wanting electoral democracy in which they are the losers.




> Ultimately, that last point is the key factor—and the underlying  problem confronting Thailand as Mr. Thaksin plans his return


No it's not.

The Opposition would like to frame it as such, but that doesn't make it such.

----------


## Mid

*Thaksin Wants to Avoid Assassination & Prison in Thailand*
Richard S. Ehrlich
 Tuesday, 8 May 2012

*Thaksin Wants to Avoid Assassination & Prison in Thailand*

Fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra hopes assassins will stop hunting him, and a deal can be arranged allowing him to dodge imprisonment and return home a free man.

Mr. Thaksin also hopes his enemies will stop accusing him of presiding over a regime which allegedly included 2,600 extrajudicial executions during his failed "war on drugs" in 2003, plus personal corruption and other wrongdoing.

Ultimately, he wants this predominantly Buddhist society to twist the constitution or the judicial system -- or create other loopholes -- to cancel his two-year prison sentence imposed for a conflict-of-interest deal which enabled his wealthy, politically savvy wife to purchase government-owned real estate in Bangkok during 2003.

Mr. Thaksin, now divorced, dwells in self-exile amid five-star splendor in Dubai. 

 "He has already told the media that he is willing to return, to go through the judicial process," said Defense Minister Sukumpol Suwanatat in April.

That newest scenario apparently would include a fresh trial for the real estate deal, with different judges, amid speculation that even a guilty verdict should result merely in a fine, and not imprisonment.

"The process must be really fair, especially the appointment of people in charge of the process," the pro-Thaksin defense minister said. 

"If things were fair, he would return."

Mr. Thaksin's defense might be that he was too far removed from the government body which oversaw the real estate deal, and thus was merely indirectly involved as prime minister, according to a foreign lawyer who is not involved in the litigation.

Mr. Thaksin might also have to abandon efforts to retrieve 1.2 billion dollars worth of his assets, which Thailand's highest court seized in February 2010 in connection to his personally profitable investments which were deemed corrupt because he made them while prime minister.

"Thaksin may have to give in, and not reclaim" the 1.2 billion dollars, said a supportive parliamentarian Sanoh Thienthong in April.

"Better to think of the money as a donation to charity," Mr. Sanoh said.

If he forfeits that cash, Mr. Thaksin may probably still be a billionaire based on his family's holdings, so such a deal could be his ticket home.

To test the mood, he has been probing along Thailand's northern and eastern borders.

During an April 11-15 trip, he landed his private plane across the Mekong River in communist-controlled Laos, and then celebrated Buddhism's joyous New Year in Cambodia near the ancient, slave-built Angkor Wat temple complex.

"This is as close as I can get to my homeland," Mr. Thaksin told a crowd near Vientiane, Laos.

"It will not be long before I will go back to my brothers and sisters."

In a private video broadcast from Laos, he said, "With your support, I am likely to return home this year."

Mr. Thaksin has not returned to Thailand since fleeing in 2008.

Ditching his hard-line reputation for announcing crackdowns and confronting his opponents, he instead waxed coy and crooned Frank Sinatra's "My Way" and the Beatles' "Let It Be" on April 14 to more than 10,000 eager supporters -- including many of his activist Red Shirts -- who traveled to Cambodia from Thailand to welcome him.

"I managed to escape four assassination attempts, thanks to my good luck and a good amulet," which he believes can protect him, Mr. Thaksin said without elaborating on the murderous attempts.

"I have not harmed anyone or done anything wrong. I want to return home when I will be able to freely walk its streets, not drive around in an armored car."

Gone are his glory days when Mr. Thaksin was thrice voted to be prime minister during his authoritarian 2001-2006 administration.

Thailand's U.S.-trained, pro-royalist military toppled Mr. Thaksin in a 2006 coup amid unhappiness by generals anxious about their promotions, and fears that Mr. Thaksin was installing cronies in powerful positions within this society's military, political and economic structure.

Today, Washington maintains close relations with Mr. Thaksin's youngest sister, Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra, who was elected in August 2011 after Mr. Thaksin hailed the politically inexperienced woman as his "clone."

Apparently learning the lesson from her brother's fate, Mrs. Yingluck is giving the military a freer reign in deciding their promotions, budgets, weapons procurements and other requests.

The sister and brother rule this pro-capitalist country together but Mr. Thaksin, 62, manipulates her from abroad.

The duo are meanwhile having a tough time orchestrating other aspects of their "amnesty" -- also dubbed "reconciliation" -- for Mr. Thaksin so he can return without being jailed.

To sweeten the deal, their coalition government suggested a blanket amnesty for groups of people charged or convicted of "political" crimes since 2005.

This would include generals who staged the coup, even though the military awarded itself immunity immediately after establishing a lackluster junta, and have never faced prosecution.

The amnesty would also include the generals and opposition politicians perceived as responsible for 91 deaths -- mostly civilians -- during nine weeks of street fights between security forces and thousands of Red Shirt supporters, who barricaded Bangkok's streets in 2010 while demanding an immediate election.

Critics warn that any widespread amnesty would destroy Thailand's judicial system.

Some opponents of the amnesty threatened to take to the streets, or call on the military to stage a fresh coup.

Mr. Thaksin, however, relishes the day when he can return.

"When I return to Thailand, I would rather take up teaching duties, apart from acting as an adviser to the prime minister," he told a reporter in April.

"I am willing to teach at any institutions," Mr. Thaksin said.

"You get things done, Il Duce," wrote the Bangkok Post's respected columnist Voranai Vanijaka on April 15, under the headline: "Il Duce, Come Home Now" -- mocking Mr. Thaksin by calling him the nickname of the 20th century's executed Italian Fascist Party leader Benito Mussolini.

"Your body counts are second to none in this kingdom," Mr. Voranai said, referring to the 2,600 people killed in murky circumstances during Mr. Thaksin's war on drugs in 2003.

Shortly after the military seized power in the 2006 coup, it issued a White Paper which said "the narcotic suppression campaign of the previous [Thaksin] government had led to a large number of extra-judicial killings -- approximately 2,500 deaths.

"Such action not only caused grave losses to the families of those who died, but also constituted a serious violation of human rights, of a scale unprecedented in a Buddhist society like Thailand."

scoop.co.nz

----------


## Calgary

> *Thaksin Wants to Avoid Assassination & Prison in Thailand*





> Fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra hopes assassins will stop hunting him


This is the very first sentence in the article, and the very first word in the very first sentence is "fugitive".
This very first word tells me immediately it is a propaganda article.




> "..........a deal can be arranged allowing him to dodge imprisonment


"_dodge imprisonment_"..........Wow....Not sure I want to go beyond this very first sentence to read more of this propaganda garbage.

The coupists in the media are overwhelming. This idiocy of characterizing their self-serving criminalization of the person they coup'ed as 'dodging imprisonment' is convulsive.

I wont bother going beyond this first sentence.

I will leave all the Farangs on the 'dark side' to swallow this stuff holus bolus.

I have discernment and intelligence beyond that, thank you very much!

----------


## noelbino

Whatever you say can be taken with a grain of salt.
There were 91 people who lost their lives in that infamous time.
Not all of them, as you continuously lie, were red shirts.
A number of them were innocent civilians, police and soldiers.
We can never expect myopics like you to state the facts.

----------


## Calgary

> Not all of them, as you continuously lie, were red shirts.
> A number of them were innocent civilians, police and soldiers.


Yes, a small number were.

The vast majority were Red Shirts, and quibling about numbers is just another way the PADites have of diverting attention away from the anti-coupists who gave their lives.

Along the same lines where they lament the death of a pro-coupist commander by name, and others, while lumping together the 90+ anti-coup taxpayers who were killed.

Their media likes to call them "civilians", carefully avoiding saying who they really were - anti-coup taxpayers and citizens. 

Have you PADites and your coup media ever bothered naming those 90+ "civilians", visiting their family and _'feeling their pain'_? ...I have. 

But you haven't, because in your heart-of-hearts, you think they got what they deserved. Along the same lines as characterizing those anti-coup taxpayers as being a anarchic rabble.

----------


## Gerbil

'taxpayers'

 :rofl:

----------


## Scaramanga

> 'taxpayers'


Yes taxpayers !



If only you took your head out of Butterfly’s butt for one second you would see there are many taxpayers in Thailand.

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by Gerbil
> 
> 'taxpayers'
> 
> 
> Yes taxpayers !
> 
> 
> 
> If only you took your head out of Butterflys butt for one second you would see there are many taxpayers in Thailand.


I am a taxpayer in Thailand.

----------


## nostromo

> Whatever you say can be taken with a grain of salt.
> There were 91 people who lost their lives in that infamous time.
> Not all of them, as you continuously lie, were red shirts.
> A number of them were innocent civilians, police and soldiers.
> We can never expect myopics like you to state the facts.


We do not actually know how many died. How many were carried away in military vehicles will never be known. We can quite reliably tell how many military personnel died.

----------


## nostromo

> And all of that, because they couldn't win an election.
> 
> And in spite of all of that, there are Farangs here who sympathize with them.
> 
> Unbelievable.


Never understood that either. This is not thaivisa owned by the nation.

----------


## noelbino

> Originally Posted by noelbino (SD)
> 
> Not all of them, as you continuously lie, were red shirts.
> A number of them were innocent civilians, police and soldiers.
> 
> 
> Yes, a small number were.
> 
> The vast majority were Red Shirts, and quibling about numbers is just another way the PADites have of diverting attention away from the anti-coupists who gave their lives.
> ...


So from that. I take it. you visited the families of  "the small number" of soldiers, police , who were doing their duty. and the innocent civilians who died.

It's not a matter of quibling over numbers, all deaths at the time deserve our respect.
Don't continue putting the blame on one group.
I never heard Mark rant 'bring a litre of petrol and-----

----------


## Calgary

> Originally Posted by Gerbil
> 
> 'taxpayers'
> 
> 
> Yes taxpayers !
> 
> 
> 
> If only you took your head out of Butterflys butt for one second you would see there are many taxpayers in Thailand.


I use the term 'taxpayers' as a means of driving home the point that these R'song victims and demonstrators were ordinary, everyday people you meet and chat with in your daily lives, at the market, friends of your family, in your village, young, middle aged and the elderly.

UDD/Red Shirts are the mainstream of Thai society..............It is those people the coupists killed.

At risk of overgeneralizing, one could argue conversely, that the Amart is not mainstream. They are often referrred to as the elite, the oligarchie, etc. 

These elites/Amart/coupists instruct their media to characterize those who stood up to them at R'song as wild-eyed anarchists, or weak-minded people being led down the garden path to idiocy..

My way of check-mating such characterizations is to call them taxpayers.

It was quite funny over on the dark side. The mushrooms got all caught up in a discussion about whether the village idiots (non-bangkokian's) even paid taxes.

----------


## Calgary

[QUOTE*="noelbino"So from that. I take it. you visited the families of  "the small number" of soldiers, police , who were doing their duty. and the innocent civilians who died. 
*
No, I did not visit the family of the coupist attackers and armed aggressors.

They are not worthy of sympathy. There should have been more of them....over 90 to be specific.

And I will not let the coupist media sidetrack me into being a bleeding heart for a few non-combatants. They were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The coupist media will try to sidetrack this way, as a concerted effort to divert attention away from the taxpayers who stood up to them and who they killed ----over 90 of them.

Coupists try every which way to avoid accepting responsibility for those murders. There is a continuing effort to spin their way out of it, by focussing only on a few black-clad guards who fought back, the way Abhi and Suthep do.

And then the most shamefull of all....Harp away about property damage. Typical of the Amart worried about their precious property, the hell with over 90 dead taxpayers.

*QUOTE="noelbino)....It's not a matter of quibling over numbers, all deaths at the time deserve our respect. Don't continue putting the blame on one group.
*
You bet I will continue to blame one group. Namely the pro-coup, heavily armed killers attacking the mainstream of Thai society who had the audacity to not accept their power-grab.

Not all deaths at R'song deserve our respect. The coupist killers least of all.

Don't try to divert attention away from Amart murderous accountablity.

----------


## Gerbil

> No, I did not visit the family of the coupist attackers and armed aggressors.
> 
> They are not worthy of sympathy. There should have been more of them....over 90 to be specific.


You really are one of the biggest cunts we have had the misfortune to see crawl through the TD doors.

Red sent.  :Sad:

----------


## Please stop now

I have just registered here- I have been reading this forum for a good long while, but never really felt compelled to join.  I have done so now to deliver seven words.  This is as a result of reading the latest in a longrunning series of posts, many of which have crossed the line of decency and eliminated any compassion I had towards the poster's cause, but which only recently have become so repugnant and callous as to make me queasy.  

I don't think I will have any reason to post ever again, so have nothing to lose.  Any attempts to mock me (or congratulate me, if any such were to be offered) will go unmet by any sort of response.

Those seven words:

*Fuck off Calgary, you horrible lunatic asshole.*

----------


## Butterfly

Calgary is a PAD troll, don't pay attention, he is trying to give a bad name to all the red farangs lunatics  :Razz:

----------


## Gerbil

^^  :smilie_clap:

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by Calgary
> 
> No, I did not visit the family of the coupist attackers and armed aggressors.
> 
> They are not worthy of sympathy. There should have been more of them....over 90 to be specific.
> 
> 
> You really are one of the biggest cunts we have had the misfortune to see crawl through the TD doors.
> 
> Red sent.


Insanity begins at home, right. You fucker say you own TD? Well then, small animal (I would bloody not eat your kind), do order a fucking curfew. Oh you can not because you are a loser of the first kind. Now look pops, the world has changed

----------


## nostromo

> I have just registered here- I have been reading this forum for a good long while, but never really felt compelled to join.  I have done so now to deliver seven words.  This is as a result of reading the latest in a longrunning series of posts, many of which have crossed the line of decency and eliminated any compassion I had towards the poster's cause, but which only recently have become so repugnant and callous as to make me queasy.  
> 
> I don't think I will have any reason to post ever again, so have nothing to lose.  Any attempts to mock me (or congratulate me, if any such were to be offered) will go unmet by any sort of response.
> 
> Those seven words:
> 
> *Fuck off Calgary, you horrible lunatic asshole.*


Viagra girl really a man, you fuck off. You have another nick but you just felt it right to get another to insult. What a fucking loser.

----------


## hazz

> No, I did not visit the family of the coupist attackers and armed aggressors.
> 
> They are not worthy of sympathy. There should have been more of them....over 90 to be specific.


congratulations calgary, I did wonder how long it would be before you became the very moister that you rant and rave about. With this statement you have just demonstrated the same thought processes behind be piece of human excriment who ordered those soldiers to execute those nurses in the temple grounds.





> I use the term 'taxpayers' as a means of driving home the point that these R'song victims and demonstrators were ordinary, everyday people you meet and chat with in your daily lives, at the market, friends of your family, in your village, young, middle aged and the elderly.


now generally speaking, when one speaks about tax payers one is generally seen as referring to income tax payers, of which there are about 4 million in a population of 60 million. Most of whom belong to social economic groups which would have you instantly foaming at the mouth screaming padits and amarat.

And out of curiosity why do you have this obsession with dehumanising those you do not like. This is not healthy, don't forget that in you own country there was a huge feminine which is still killing the second and third generations with increased heart decease and diabetes; caused by people who viewed you and your fellow countrymen as 'the enemy' rather than humans.

----------


## nostromo

You are not worthy of reply; can see it now in milliseconds after clicking reply. WTF are you on about?

Self-proclaimed "sickest motherfucker" you belong to a nice place with those nice young men in their nice white coats - rest you can listen to





> Originally Posted by Calgary
> 
> No, I did not visit the family of the coupist attackers and armed aggressors.
> 
> They are not worthy of sympathy. There should have been more of them....over 90 to be specific.
> 
> 
> congratulations calgary, I did wonder how long it would be before you became the very moister that you rant and rave about. With this statement you have just demonstrated the same thought processes behind be piece of human excriment who ordered those soldiers to execute those nurses in the temple grounds.
> 
> ...

----------


## Notnow

> Originally Posted by Calgary
> 
> No, I did not visit the family of the coupist attackers and armed aggressors.
> 
> They are not worthy of sympathy. There should have been more of them....over 90 to be specific.
> 
> 
> congratulations calgary, I did wonder how long it would be before you became the very moister that you rant and rave about. With this statement you have just demonstrated the same thought processes behind be piece of human excriment who ordered those soldiers to execute those nurses in the temple grounds.
> 
> ...


Huge feminine? "Pictures a giant woman stuffing people like paté geese"  Please clarify

----------


## LooseBowels

> There were 91 people who lost their lives in that infamous time.


We all know that nob, :Smile: 
but pray tell us why they lost their lives,  who murdered them, and why they havn't had any semblance of justice?

----------


## LooseBowels

> I never heard Mark rant 'bring a litre of petrol and


No, he attacked first with that infamous declaration of "LIVE FIRE ZONES"

After that it was all self-defence. :Smile: 

Especially after the blueshirt/army unprovoked attack on the reds at Pattaya asean( I was there and watched it unfold over 2 days), and the mad deceased colonels unprovoked attacks on the reds at Bangkok1.

You can't argue with that

----------


## LooseBowels

> I have just registered here- I have been reading this forum for a good long while, but never really felt compelled to join. I have done so now to deliver seven words. This is as a result of reading the latest in a longrunning series of posts, many of which have crossed the line of decency and eliminated any compassion I had towards the poster's cause, but which only recently have become so repugnant and callous as to make me queasy. 
> 
> I don't think I will have any reason to post ever again, so have nothing to lose. Any attempts to mock me (or congratulate me, if any such were to be offered) will go unmet by any sort of response.
> 
> Those seven words:
> 
> *Fuck off Calgary, you horrible lunatic asshole.*


Oh dont go, "Please stop now", please stop now. :Smile: 

Your opinion is fine,  wrong, but its your opinion.

I'd like you to stay a while and give us your opinion on the murdress thai amart and its junta dictator, and its undemocratic coup-issued law, and live fire zones, and red oppression, and censorship, and amart corruption, and murder in the highest.

and of course the murder of 91 innocent citizens on the streets of the capital under the live fire zone proclamation of the unelected junta proxy dictator.

You won't, youv'e already shown your not up to it by childishly undertaking a PAD yellow nutter style attack on a fellow poster. 

You can't argue with that

----------


## Calgary

*Fuck off Calgary, you horrible lunatic asshole*

I wish you wouldn't say that.

Now my wife is calling me that, and she has a reason to :Smile:

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by noelbino
> 
> There were 91 people who lost their lives in that infamous time.
> 
> 
> We all know that nob,
> but pray tell us why they lost their lives,  who murdered them, and why they havn't had any semblance of justice?


For someone's 46 billion which got confiscated a few months before, the army egged on by the parts of UDD leadership, both sides have each other by the balls.

----------


## sabang

> Especially after the blueshirt/army unprovoked attack on the reds at Pattaya asean


Attempts to intimidate the UDD by violence, media demonisation and brutality only made them stronger. This is the real reason we are seeing a more placatory tone from the 'powers that be', sadly- not any ethereal democratic principles of fairness and democratic accountability. They realised, by their failure, that they were toying with the very fabric of a nation, and dangerously so.

----------


## Bobcock

> and why they havn't had any semblance of justice?


You tell us, you are the one who spouted off about the new Government of Democracy, truth and justice. 

You sounded and still sound like someone who has never been to Thailand and had any experience of how things work.

No one will ever be made accountable for what happened and if you think otherwise you are a fool.

It is not the Thai way to prosecute the guilty when they fit the 'right' profile.

----------


## sabang

> No one will ever be made accountable


No one of substance, anyway. The deal has been done.

----------


## BKKBoet

> Especially after the blueshirt/army unprovoked attack on the reds at Pattaya asean.


Unprovoked. They stormed the hotel housing ASEAN heads of state who had to be evacuated by helicopter and afterwards attacked Abhisits car. What do you think the authorities would have done is this had happened in the USA?

----------


## sabang

The BJT blue shirt rentamob instigated the violence actually, I guess the Newin's & allies thought the Reds could be bullied out of there. It was an epic fail, because that made the red shirts actually enter hotel lobbies etc rather than just demonstrate outside. Which promptly made the world news.

----------


## Calgary

> Originally Posted by LooseBowels
> 
> 
> Especially after the blueshirt/army unprovoked attack on the reds at Pattaya asean.
> 
> 
> Unprovoked. They stormed the hotel housing ASEAN heads of state who had to be evacuated by helicopter and afterwards attacked Abhisits car. What do you think the authorities would have done is this had happened in the USA?


Unlikely there would have been a Prime Ministerial usurper "_putting on airs_" with international leaders as if he was legitimate.

Coupists strutting about on the International Stage were a Red Flag to those whose democratic rights had been trampled upon. As opposed to being unprovoked, they were provocative to the extreme.

This event is where Arisman became my hero. He was the first one to rub Abhi's nose in his own illegitimate, bastardization of the political process.

It was a foretaste of what was to come for Abhi. and the coupists who hoisted him into place.

They connived, conspired and killed to preserve their ill-gotten gains, but met their inevitable electoral Waterloo, as the R'song protesters knew they would.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by LooseBowels
> 
> Especially after the blueshirt/army unprovoked attack on the reds at Pattaya asean
> 
> 
> Attempts to intimidate the UDD by violence, media demonisation and brutality only made them stronger. This is the real reason we are seeing a more placatory tone from the 'powers that be', sadly- not any ethereal democratic principles of fairness and democratic accountability. They realised, by their failure, that they were toying with the very fabric of a nation, and dangerously so.


Pandora's box has been opened, what will happen over few years is unpredictable. How much money can be thrown at the problems to make them go away? if ever.

----------


## hazz

> Self-proclaimed "sickest motherfucker" you belong to a nice place with those nice young men in their nice white coats - rest you can listen to


I was given that title by socal, and given the depth and breath of experience he has on this subject I thought I should take him seriously, this once. 




> Huge feminine? "Pictures a giant woman stuffing people like paté geese" Please clarify


As was referring to the great famine holland suffered in the mid forties, which has lead, those "those nice young men in their nice white coats" to discover that gene expression is dynamic with gene's being activated by environmental factors such as starvation  and should this happen before  the cells in your testicals or overies have grown; these changes in gene expression will be inherited by your children with health implications for future generations.  Unfortunately the 'steve jobs knows more about your mind than you do' AI on my spell checker decided I was thinking about women.

----------


## Thaihome

> As was referring to the great famine holland suffered in the mid forties, which has lead, those "those nice young men in their nice white coats" to discover that gene expression is dynamic with gene's being activated by environmental factors such as starvation and should this happen before the cells in your testicals or overies have grown; these changes in gene expression will be inherited by your children with health implications for future generations. .....


Prenatal Exposure to Wartime Famine and Development of Antisocial Personality Disorder in Early Adulthood

Well, that certainly explains a lot about some the Dutch men I have run across. Never knew about it.
 :Smile: 
TH

----------


## Calgary

Post deleted by self.

----------


## Notnow

Hehe ok.  Nice reply.  I knew it was that.

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by LooseBowels
> 
> 
> Especially after the blueshirt/army unprovoked attack on the reds at Pattaya asean.
> 
> 
> Unprovoked. They stormed the hotel housing ASEAN heads of state who had to be evacuated by helicopter and afterwards attacked Abhisits car. What do you think the authorities would have done is this had happened in the USA?


I am not quite sure if you are plain stupid (sorry about that), brainwashed, protecting your freedoms as a low wage employer, or a fooking donkey. I hope the last option suits you, I like animals.

Whatever, you might want to look closer at events that took place. Reds did not attack anyone. If you want to go into who attacked who then I suggest you look at terrorist act of seizing international airport by yellow bastards - one of them even served in military government saying it was all good food. Wnker.

----------


## Mid

> Originally Posted by Calgary
> 
> No, I did not visit the family of the coupist attackers and armed aggressors.
> 
> They are not worthy of sympathy. There should have been more of them....over 90 to be specific.
> 
> 
> You really are one of the biggest cunts we have had the misfortune to see crawl through the TD doors.
> 
> Red sent.


show me where you have treated buttfuk in the same way ?

----------


## BKKBoet

> Originally Posted by BKKBoet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by LooseBowels
> ...


It is quite funny (or sad) that the people who always need to throw the insults around to prove their point all seem to be cut of the same cloth.

PS: If you don't know how to spell you will find Teakdoor has a wonderful spell checker.

----------


## Calgary

*^*



> *I just mentioned that they stormed the hotel and attached the PM's car -*


*
*
Yes, they stormed the hotel, in pursuit of coupists who should never have been there

The PM's car?................ Almost sound respectful........................ Unfortunately where no respect was deserved---PM in name only. 

A shameless usurper by any measure.

Pattaya is where the real world intruded his fake reality.

I recall one of the UDD leaders stating at that time, "_We are going to be Abhi's worst nightmare_"

I think they proved true to their word.

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by nostromo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by BKKBoet
> ...


Right. Sorry then I can not put you down as a donkey, but instead I find you a dickless idiot.

You wanker can run any number of spell checkers and the truth does no change. I know you. You are one of fake english teachers, earning 14k a month, borrowing money from your bargirl and her mother. I am sorry for her and her mother.

----------


## Calgary

> attached the PM's car


What was that about a spell check..........'attached' this guy's car?

----------


## BKKBoet

^ Ha, Ha, ha. Got me.

^^Whatever dude. Think of me however you want if it makes you feel good and makes your life seem a little better. By the way, you are just carrying on and proving my point.

----------


## nostromo

> ^ Ha, Ha, ha. Got me.
> 
> ^^Whatever dude. Think of me however you want if it makes you feel good and makes your life seem a little better. By the way, you are just carrying on and proving my point.


I think nothing of you outside this chat. Here, as I said, you are a dickless idiot, fuking moron. End of.

----------


## Butterfly

> Originally Posted by Gerbil
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Calgary
> ...


our resident retard having another hardon for me  :Razz:

----------


## BKKBoet

^^Geez, you are a repetitive bore. Your small mind still hasn't worked out that your insults mean nothing to me and every post reinforced my point about you.

----------


## DrB0b

Jesus H. Christ. What a bunch of fuck-ups. Have none of you really got nothing better to do than wave your virtual dicks at each other in a desperate effort to prove that your existence is, in some way, worthwhile? While that question applies throughout the board it's particularly pertinent in this forum. You people make me ashamed to be a Westerner. So many serious things to talk about in this benighted country and all you fools care about is making childish snarky comments to previous posts. You people disgust me. Recently an old man, a real person, died in a benighted prison cell where he had been locked up on a trumped-up charge. That's real life, horrific, unfair, abusive, yet you assholes just carry on with your pathetic dicksize wars, intent on scoring non-existent points over each other. Your inane competivity would be disturbing if you were children but taking the the charitable view that the majority of you are adults it's both nauseating and disturbing.

----------


## Butterfly

^ welcome back dear, we missed you  :Smile:

----------


## DrB0b

> ^ welcome back dear, we missed you


Hey Butts. I'm not really back but Holy Mother of Jesus don't these self-regarding assholes get to you too? They don't even bother to troll, they just whinge and complain about each other. Those people shouldn't be on a forum, they should be on a support group where they can indulge their mutual masturbation sessions without messing up the digestive processes of normal people.

----------


## noelbino

> Post deleted by self.


Pity, you didn't delete yourself. ::spin::

----------


## noelbino

> Jesus H. Christ. What a bunch of fuck-ups. Have none of you really got nothing better to do than wave your virtual dicks at each other in a desperate effort to prove that your existence is, in some way, worthwhile? While that question applies throughout the board it's particularly pertinent in this forum. You people make me ashamed to be a Westerner. So many serious things to talk about in this benighted country and all you fools care about is making childish snarky comments to previous posts. You people disgust me. Recently an old man, a real person, died in a benighted prison cell where he had been locked up on a trumped-up charge. That's real life, horrific, unfair, abusive, yet you assholes just carry on with your pathetic dicksize wars, intent on scoring non-existent points over each other. Your inane competivity would be disturbing if you were children but taking the the charitable view that the majority of you are adults it's both nauseating and disturbing.


He started it!!!

----------


## Calgary

^^
Sort of a drive-by shooting of everyone by Dr. Bob. Let me respond to points that interest me, and see if it redeems anyone:

>_Do people have nothing better to do then_................But people on political threads (the only ones that interest me, most of the time) are Political junkies, and that is what PJ's do. The pontificate about matters Political. I enjoy talking Politics, and I appreciate those who do likewise...whether I agree or not, If it wasn't for them, I'd be talking to myself. 

>Yeah, allright, some get carried away focussing on the messenger for reasons peculiar to themselves, with questionable vacabulary. Either they have no rejoinder, or they just don't like the guy for his idiotic opinions.....But never mind.. the world is not perfect. Spouting off is good for your health, didn't you know that.

>Yes, there are serious things to talk about, and there are Posts catering to the serious things people are interested in. For me it is the political thing, being fully cognizant that nothing us Farangs have to say is worth a hill-of-beans in Thailand. But never mind, political junkies talk politics, so give them some slack. If you don't like to talk politics, dont be here.

>Everything you say about the old man dying is absolutely correct - I couldn't have said it better myself. And it has been discussed in a thread attributed to his very 'serious' case, including photos.

>"....._yet you assholes just carry on with your pathetic dicksize wars, intent on scoring non-existent points over each other. Your inane competivity would be disturbing"_ ...Yes, that is another thing Political Junkies do. The argue, bicker, dispute, fued, quible and all that good stuff. How boring otherwise. Enforced uniformity like elsewhere, is most boring of all (see my signature). 

So if you find this all so _nauseating and disturbing_, Why the hell are you over here. Go wherever your interests lead you. 

To denigrate the entire population on here as you have done, assaults all those who enjoy dabbling in this stuff. With all due respect, go dabble somewhere else Dr. Bob.

----------


## Calgary

> Originally Posted by Calgary
> 
> 
> Post deleted by self.
> 
> 
> Pity, you didn't delete yourself.


Sorry to keep confusing you with facts SD.

----------


## Calgary

> He started it!!!


No I didn't.

Hey Mom, SD started it.

----------


## DrB0b

Bunch of childish inadequates  :Sad:

----------


## Gerbil

> If it wasn't for them, I'd be talking to myself


You are talking to yourself. Nobody wants to read essentially the same post again and again and again, yet that's all you can do.




> assaults all those who enjoy dabbling in this stuff. With all due respect, go dabble somewhere else Dr. Bob.


In case you havent noticed, DrBob would be more pro-red than anything, so you've probably just alienated someone who shares your point of view (except for the insane rantings part and your contemptible disregard for human beings which you have demonstrated at least twice now by stating that you 'wish more soldiers had died')

----------


## DrB0b

> To denigrate the entire population on here as you have done, assaults all those who enjoy dabbling in this stuff.


Why should I have any respect for "dabblers'? Dilettantes. Nothing more than train-spotters, except for the fact that train-spotters don't trivialise genuine suffering. I have always denigrated navel-gazing solipsists and I always will.

----------


## mao say dung

So it would appear whoever signed up the idiot new nic to tell Calgary to stop posting has now got hold of a password to use DrBob's nic. No way the real DrBob would refer to Buttmonkey in a way that sounded as if he weren't the very paradigm of what this DrB is pontificating about.

Troll grade: 3/10

----------


## BKKBoet

Dr Bob, good to see you again, respect. I am sure everyone here feels for old uncle SMS who was just a poor innocent who fell through the cracks while both sides were playing the political game persuing their own interests.

----------


## Calgary

> Dr Bob, good to see you again, respect. I am sure everyone here feels for old uncle SMS who was just a poor innocent who fell through the cracks while both sides were playing the political game persuing their own interests.


Yeah, except for Dr.Bob part, who has so many important things on his mind compared to the rest of us dolts, and has so many more important things to do than the rest of us, that I wish he would just get after them instead of telling us all about them, I have to agree with you on your point BB:

_I am sure everyone here feels for old uncle SMS who was just a poor innocent who fell through the cracks while both sides were playing the political game persuing their own interests._ 

Who is this Dr. Bob anyway?..........over 10,000 Posts and here since 2006. I don't recall ever tangling with him or being aware of him. He must have been here, and I just didn't notice.

----------


## lom

> Who is this Dr. Bob anyway?..........over 10,000 Posts and here since 2006. I don't recall ever tangling with him or being aware of him. He must have been here, and I just didn't notice.


Of course you didn't and that because you're so full of yourself.
Comrade B0b is a revolutionist, an anarchist, and a freedom fighter.
Everything that you're dreaming of becoming but which you'll only be a bleak copy of.

----------


## sabang

Quite witty and opinionated when he's been on the sauce too.  :Smile: 
Quite a long sabbatical there DrB- but nice to see you back on form.

----------


## Calgary

> Originally Posted by Calgary
> 
> Who is this Dr. Bob anyway?..........over 10,000 Posts and here since 2006. I don't recall ever tangling with him or being aware of him. He must have been here, and I just didn't notice.
> 
> 
> Of course you didn't and that because you're so full of yourself.
> Comrade B0b is a revolutionist, an anarchist, and a freedom fighter.
> Everything that you're dreaming of becoming but which you'll only be a bleak copy of.


I take it you don't agree with my take on the UDD/Red Shirts lom, and Thai politics in general. But pleased to trade commentary.

Given your attitude, you aren't one of the 'mushrooms' floating back and forth are you (see signature).

I will look forward to Comrade Bob's more constructive contributions then slagging others wholesale.

----------


## Butterfly

this is priceless  :rofl:

----------


## Butterfly

> you'll only be a bleak copy of.


a bleak copy ? oh please, that is quite insulting

more like a long lost retarded brother he is trying to forget,

----------


## Calgary

> "........................old uncle SMS who was just a poor innocent who fell through the cracks while both sides were playing the political game persuing their own interests.


I inquired of UDD/Red Shirt leadership here, if they aren't getting a tad frustrated with Red Shirts remaining behind bars and the death of this seemingly _'sacrificial lamb'
_
I gathered from their response, they retain forbearance and restraint, sensing that things need to be taken one step at a time.

There is also a recognition of the power behind both the R'song thing, and the basis of this old man's incarceration. A basis that is specific in nature and controls everything.

Given those realities, they are exercising tolerance, and accepting progress one small step at a time.

The Opposition obviously seeks to whip up this situation, and would love nothing better than to have the UDD/Red Shirts at the throat of the PTP, making impossible demands, followed by antagonistic division and disunity.

They fail to realize their humongous unifying effect on the PTP/UDD/Red Shirts that overides all this wishful thinking.

----------


## Butterfly

> sensing that things need to be taken one step at a time.


translation: we don't care

----------


## noelbino

> Originally Posted by Calgary
> 
> sensing that things need to be taken one step at a time.
> 
> 
> translation: we don't care


And we shouldn't. More rantings from a troll.

----------


## Calgary

> Originally Posted by Butterfly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Calgary
> ...


And from SD

----------


## LooseBowels

> You tell us, you are the one who spouted off about the new Government of Democracy, truth and justice.


Thing is you Welsh Windbag :Smile: , the democratic election process is in place, the democratic government evolvement process is in place,  the democratic PM selection process is in place, and democratic governance is in place.
Thats democracy. 
Sadly at this point in time, there is an Institution that doesn't answer to that democratic process, and murdressly operates outside that democracy to destroy it.




> You sounded and still sound like someone who has never been to Thailand and had any experience of how things work.


Only in amongst the reds at Pattaya asean during the blueshirt and army attacks.
Wrode with them, grandparents, womenfolk, and children, in the triumphant procession back to Pattaya.
The army and blueshirts attacked helpless old folk, women, and children.
You must be so proud of them, how close did u get?




> No one will ever be made accountable for what happened and if you think otherwise you are a fool.


That remains to be seen, who's the fool now

You can't argue with that

----------


## Calgary

> Sadly at this point in time, there is an Institution that doesn't answer to that democratic process, and murderessly operates outside that democracy to destroy it.


*Yup!.*

I wouldn't dream of arguing with that.

It is very difficult to argue with facts and truth, although mushrooms try.

----------


## Bobcock

The courts?

Gotta do a fair bit of work to get them to the courts...... And I haven't seen the Government of democracy, truth and justice start the process.

----------


## Bobcock

> That remains to be seen, who's the fool now


I'm the fool because what I say and know won't happen hasn't happened???

You really are a fuckwit aren't you.




> You must be so proud of them, how close did u get?


I think my photo threads answer that question.

----------


## Gerbil

It's pretty simple.

DD is not going to jail or ban idiots like Calgary or Loosebowels, etc. because 'controversy encourages traffic' 

I am all for free speech and healthy debate but there is a point when idiotic replies to sensible points discourages active participation from new readers.

That point can only be assessed by DD when he looks at the traffic stats for the site.

but TD has been growing despite the idiot contributions so who knows what will happen?

----------


## mc2

^ you're so off the mark it's funny.
nothing new

----------


## Calgary

Prepare to read and see increasing information about next week Saturday's anniversary Rally by the UDD/Red Shirts at R'song.

It is the anniversary of when the coupists lost all restraint in defending their coup, and killed over 90 taxpayers.

It will be a significantly attended event. This region which doesn't include a major city, is sending 8 bus loads. This being the case in higher Red Shirt populated regions and urban centers, suggest a humongous event.

An event the Bangkok centric, anti-Red Shirt propaganda media, will not even be able to ignore.

Watch for PADites here and mushrooms elsewhere, arrogantly but nervously, heap abuse on these people. 

I would also be nervous if I was them. Will clearly demonstrate their minority electoral status.

----------


## Mr Lick

I hope the PM will deem it appropriate to reduce food prices and offer fuel vouchers for those attending, in appreciation of their efforts in attempting to re-establish her brother's power 2 years ago.. 

No doubt those on TD would also appreciate a few pics of this eventful rally. I myself will be unable to attend as i much prefer the peacefulness and clean fresh air of the countryside rather than the hustle and bustle of the capital especially during an invasion of peasant/serfs. 

As the air temperatures are particularly high at this time of year I do hope for the sake of Bangkokians that matches/lighters are in short supply on ths occasion  :Smile:

----------


## Bobcock

> I would also be nervous if I was them. Will clearly demonstrate their minority electoral status.


I thought the election did that.....

----------


## LooseBowels

> It's pretty simple. DD is not going to jail or ban idiots like Calgary or Loosebowels, etc. because 'controversy encourages traffic' I am all for free speech and healthy debate but there is a point when idiotic replies to sensible points discourages active participation from new readers. That point can only be assessed by DD when he looks at the traffic stats for the site. but TD has been growing despite the idiot contributions so who knows what will happen?


 



> this is priceless


You can't argue with that

----------


## LooseBowels

> I would also be nervous if I was them. Will clearly demonstrate their minority electoral status.
> 			
> 		
> 
> I thought the election did that.....


Which election would that be then.......... :Smile: 

You can't argue with that

----------


## sabang

> especially during an invasion of peasant/serfs


Most folk attending will be from Bk and surrounds actually. There will be a healthy contingent from the Provinces too, but don't forget the UDD has seperate rallies there also. Oh, of course- the Bk 'Press' apparently cannot afford bus tickets, so you don't get to hear about them.  :Smile:

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by Bobcock
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				I would also be nervous if I was them. Will clearly demonstrate their minority electoral status.
> ...


He gets dumber by the minute.

----------


## Calgary

> Originally Posted by LooseBowels
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Bobcock
> ...


When comparing insight to Thai politics, and having a clear perspective of the Amart coupists you unbelievably sympathise with LW, maybe you have little or no credibility with which to be judgemental.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> Recently an old man, a real person, died in a benighted prison cell where he had been locked up on a trumped-up charge. That's real life, horrific, unfair, abusive


What angers me even more is the facebook soap opera bitch and others who cheered the guy's demise. Someone needs to pull her fucking hair - and give her a 'real life' bitch slap.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by LooseBowels
> ...


Have you decided whether thaksin is really a red shirt or not yet?

----------


## LooseBowels

^ Ha what a PAD yellow nutter :Smile: 

You and the rest of your MAD PAD yellow nutters have been accusing the good man of financing the birth  of the democracy movement, so what do you think nutter

You can't argue with that

----------


## longway

> ^ Ha what a PAD yellow nutter
> 
> You and the rest of your MAD PAD yellow nutters have been accusing the good man of financing the birth  of the democracy movement, so what do you think nutter
> 
> You can't argue with that


From the hysterics it's pretty obvious none here know anything about anything particularly pro democratic about the UDD as an organisation, what's happens with the reds once/if the UDD funding is cut is very uncertain.

However all of you are just sooo emotional about the red shirt grass roots. They are not kids, they are grown men and women.

You might like to keep it in mind while you defend every aspect of a very flawed organisation that claims to represent them.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Fugitive Thai PM calls for amnesty - World News | IOL News | IOL.co.za
*
*Fugitive Thai PM calls for amnesty*

                  July 17 2012 at 04:14pm 

 _
REUTERS_
_Thailand's former premier Thaksin Shinawatra._

Thailand - Thailand's  fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra Tuesday called for a  highly-controversial amnesty, saying it is a “key to reconciliation” and  long overdue. 

“Everyone says the same thing,  that reconciliation must include amnesty,” he told a panel discussion at  the Strategic Review Forum in Jakarta. “It's long overdue for Thailand  to bring about reconciliation. 

“If you learn how to forgive,  that's the only key, it's the key to reconciliation. I'd like to urge  all parties in Thailand to forgive.” 

Thailand's government in June said  it was postponing voting in parliament on controversial  “reconciliation” proposals that have stoked political tensions in the  divided kingdom. 

The bills are strongly opposed by  opposition MPs who fear they will be used to grant an amnesty to  Thaksin, ousted by royalist generals in a 2006 coup. 

   Thaksin, a former telecoms tycoon  who lives in Dubai to avoid a jail term for corruption, is loved by many  rural and poor Thais for his populist policies while in power, but  hated by the elite who see him as a threat to the monarchy. 

   Thaksin's sister Yingluck Shinawatra is now prime minister following a landslide election win by her brother's party last year. 

One of the draft laws, which aims  to amend the kingdom's constitution, has angered royalists who see it as  an attempt to weaken the monarchy. 

   Thailand's Constitutional Court on  Friday found complaints against plans by Yingluck's party to amend the  constitution -- drawn up under the military junta that deposed Thaksin  -- were unfounded. 

   Thaksin denied his desire to return to Thailand was linked to the court ruling. 

   “I don't think the Constitutional Court has anything to do with (whether) I'm going back or not,” he said. 

“We'd like to see the constitution amended in a democratic way.” 

Thousands  of royalist “Yellow Shirt” protesters blockaded parliament in May to  prevent the house from discussing the reconciliation plans. 

   In 2010 mass protests by Thaksin's  “Red Shirt” supporters against the previous government descended into  the kingdom's worst civil violence in decades, with more than 90 people  killed in a military crackdown. - AFP

----------


## Gerbil

Either he's totally out of touch, or he's decided that PTP can screw over the red shirts by forcing through reconciliation and then buying them off with other promises.

----------


## Mr Lick

He's barking mad, the only road to reconcilliation is through his demise.

Maybe a shoulder wound would bring him to his senses

----------


## StrontiumDog

_“Everyone says the same thing,  that reconciliation must include  amnesty,” he told a panel discussion at  the Strategic Review Forum in  Jakarta. “It's long overdue for Thailand  to bring about reconciliation._ 

No, anyone with a brain knows that reconciliation can only happen when people accept responsibility and acknowledge mistakes/failures....and amnesty is continuing the the cycle of impunity which got this country in the mess it is in.

_“If you learn how to forgive,  that's the only key, it's the key to  reconciliation. I'd like to urge  all parties in Thailand to forgive.”_

So, no one will accept responsibility? No one will have to face justice...once again he sh*ts all over those who died and will let off anyone who did any wrong doing....just so long as he can get what he wants.......

And people believe Pheu Thai and the stuff they come out...really...!

I bet he'll be saying he was misquoted again soon, like last time. Oh, damn, this time it's AFP....

----------


## DJ Pat

> is loved by many  rural and poor Thais


The idiots of the country who don't know better.

----------


## LooseBowels

> “We'd like to see the constitution amended in a democratic way.”


Well, that is the way of the democratic , civilized world, but not the PAD Yellow nutter terrorist world :Smile: 

Of course, when you have a USA visa, remarks on the world stage by thailands only world statesman do carry such gravitas

You can't argue with that

----------


## harrybarracuda

What am I missing? He wants to go home and not get jailed. I say give him the amnesty. Then double tap the fucker. He's been more divisive for Thailand than anyone I've ever know in my lifetime. And he's a fucking thief.

----------


## sabang

> but hated by the elite who see him as a threat to the monarchy.


That old canard again- Thaksin is and was never a threat to the Monarchy, and they well know it.
Thaksin is a threat to *Them* because 1- he is popular with the people of Thailand and 2- they therefore had to share their corruption monies and other trappings with him and his cronies.

----------


## hunter

he still believes in fairies. Wanker.

----------


## Rural Surin

> He's barking mad, the only road to reconcilliation is through his demise.
> 
> Maybe a shoulder wound would bring him to his senses


A familial shoulder, naturally.

----------


## robuzo

> Either he's totally out of touch, or he's decided that PTP can screw over the red shirts by forcing through reconciliation and then buying them off with other promises.


Looks like more the latter from here.

----------


## BobR

_ Megalomania  is a psycho-pathological condition characterized by delusional fantasies of power, relevance, or omnipotence. 'Megalomania is characterized by an inflated sense of self-esteem and overestimation by persons of their powers and beliefs'._


Yep, fits just fine.

----------


## robuzo

> What am I missing? He wants to go home and not get jailed. I say give him the amnesty. Then double tap the fucker. He's been more divisive for Thailand than anyone I've ever know in my lifetime. And he's a fucking thief.


That the coup planners deliberately allowed him to be exiled rather than waiting until he was here to arrest him/kill him suggests they had reservations about taking him physically. The notion that Thaksin just happened to be in NY and luckily wound up on the lam rather than in irons or shot is laughable. Maybe they thought they'd have a better shot at getting his property were he alive. Maybe his more powerful enemies would prefer to discredit him than make him a martyr. That they haven't managed to discredit him is more the result of their inadequate intelligence and lack of imagination than Thaksin's sterling character.

----------


## robuzo

> _ Megalomania  is a psycho-pathological condition characterized by delusional fantasies of power, relevance, or omnipotence. 'Megalomania is characterized by an inflated sense of self-esteem and overestimation by persons of their powers and beliefs'._
> 
> 
> Yep, fits just fine.


Well, yes, but it broadly applies to an entire social class here. Actually, I think the megalomaniacal tendency is considered a feature rather than bug at the top of the pyramid in Thailand, or maybe it is just thought of as a perk. Humility and modesty don't appear to be considered virtues around these parts. 

"And our leaders have feasts on the backsides of beasts
They still think they're the gods of antiquity. . ."

----------


## Patrick

I am seriously beginning to wonder if Thaksin and his parties' policies are not being deliberately designed to destroy Thailand both socially and economically, perhaps as a maniacal revenge because he now realises he has little chance of returning to Thailand.

The constant refrain about "reconciliation", Charter amendments etc. merely stirs the Red and Yellow mobs to more confrontation and social division.

Populist and totally unsustainable policies are now so embedded in the Thai Economic order that it will be almost impossible to roll them back without causing even more resentment from the Red shirt mob, even though the evidence of the destruction these policies cause is there for them to see. As an example the Rice pledging scheme with its' so-called guaranteed prices for farmers, far above world Market prices, has not benefited farmers but has reduced Thai Rice exports by about 40%, left the Government with warehouses full of unsold rice and lost Thailand the place of top Rice exporter in the world - a position it had held for many years. Despite all of which the Government - i.e. Thaksin - has already stated that the Policy will be continued next year.

That is only one example of course but I am becoming more and more convinced that there is a pattern in all of this.

Patrick

----------


## Blue water dreaming

Let Thailand bring this awful man back as soon as the Government sets up a South African style, independent Truth and Reconcilliation Commission. He can be held under house arrest until his past has been debated. Then he can serve his sentence if it is found to be just, and he can have his money back if it is determined he made it honestly and without corruption.

Who better to make an example of than one of the untouchables.

Or, as Harry says, someone can just whack him and save all the bother.

----------


## robuzo

^^So, Patrick, Thaksin isn't just another asset farmer, he's an asset farmer with an ax to grind, is that it? That's paranoid. He simply found a new tool for self-aggrandizement in demagoguery, something nobody else at the top ever saw the need for, and he used it well. It's not a shadowy plot, it's as old as representative government, which is why the only thing the fascists can think to do now is try to disenfranchise the voters. Not only do they doubt, despite a few weak forays by Mark A, they can beat Thaksin at the game, they think they can get away without even playing, because while Thaksin has the lion's share of the support of the masses, they still have the muscle.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Thaksin calls for constitutional changes in Thailand - The Nation
*
*Thaksin calls for constitutional changes in Thailand*

         Deustche Presse-Agentur
Jakarta July 18, 2012  9:03 am 
*
Fugitive former Thai prime minister Thaksin  Shinawatra on Tuesday said Thailand's constitution needed to be revised  to make it more democratic.*

              His remarks in Jakarta came less than a week after the Constitutional  Court ruled that legislators in Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra’s  governing party could not rewrite the country’s constitution.

    "I would like to urge everybody in Thailand, especially the  Constitutional Court, that Thailand needs to move forward in a  democratic manner, not just like this," he said after participating in a  seminar on reconciliation in Jakarta.

    "This is not good for the country," he said.

    The current constitution was drafted in 2007, a year after the Thai military ousted Thaksin.

    Thaksin, a former telecoms tycoon, fled Thailand to escape a 2-year  sentence after he was convicted of abuse of power in 2008. He now lives  in Dubai.

    He said Friday’s court ruling had nothing to do whether he could return or not.

    "It’s a question of how we can bring back the constitution that is more democratic," he said.

    The Constitutional Court also ruled Friday against a claim that the  government of Yingluck, Thaksin’s sister, was trying to overthrow the  constitutional monarchy with its bid to amend the charter.

    The ruling defused fears that the ruling Pheu Thai party could be  dissolved and its executives banned from involvement in politics for  five years.

    Leaders of the so-called red-shirt movement - which demonstrated in  Bangkok for two-and-a-half months in 2010, leading to street battles  that claimed 91 lives - threatened to the streets again should the court  rule against the government.

    The court halted the passage of the amendment bill after a simultaneous debate last month on a proposed reconciliation bill.

    That bill appeared designed to pave the way for an amnesty for Thaksin,  which would allow his return to Thailand without serving his sentence.

    Thaksin said he would only return when there was a guarantee that there would be no unrest.

    "Definitely I want to go back but I don’t want to go back and create  more conflict," he said. "I want to go back and help reconcile the  country."

    He insisted that he was a victim and not part of the problem. "The  problem is there’s resistance to change among the establishment."

----------


## noelbino

> *Thaksin calls for constitutional changes in Thailand - The Nation
> *
> *Thaksin calls for constitutional changes in Thailand*
> 
>          Deustche Presse-Agentur
> Jakarta July 18, 2012  9:03 am 
> *
> Fugitive former Thai prime minister Thaksin  Shinawatra on Tuesday said Thailand's constitution needed to be revised  to make it more democratic.*
> 
> ...


I'm the VICTIM???
What a load of crap.
Square head listen carefully: YOU are the cause of all the existing problems in this country.
Anyone with any intelligence knows that.
Come back,do your 2 years and everything will be OK???
No fucking way.
Stay where you.

----------


## Yasojack

And heres what he said according to a indonesian newspaper

THAKSIN return to Thailand only for reconciliation - Bisnis.com

----------


## sabang

> YOU are the cause of all the existing problems in this country.


What a load of claptrap. you obviously haven't known Thailand for very long at all.

----------


## StrontiumDog

> And heres what he said according to a indonesian newspaper
> 
> THAKSIN return to Thailand only for reconciliation - Bisnis.com


And your point is..................?

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> He's barking mad, the only road to reconcilliation is through his demise.
> 
> Maybe a shoulder wound would bring him to his senses


The fact of the matter is this is and always has been the beginning of the end of the few families in their we-own-everything-pyramid. So yeah you could kill off Thaksin, but another one would just come along a year or two from now. The dispute is between wealthy clans and which side they're on. The silver lining (IMO) is the general public has been awakened and are demanding in on the game - even in a small way - with better access to education and hope for their kids. I'll bet that's an undesirable consequence for Thaksin (and certainly for his opponents), but one he was prepared to live with if mobilizing the masses would get him back to Thailand and his position of power, influence - and of course money (e.g. returned - though like the Saudi Gems, it's probably already been doled out to the other camp). The eventual outcome for the old family systems of only a handful of hundred families owning everything is approaching its end. It's just a matter of time. If not by Thaksin, then by another. Thaksin's day will come too - now or later, I don't care but I hope for a much brighter future of particpation in democracy and opportunity for the next generation of Thai and a bitter end to the _"Khun ben dek khong krai?"_ system.

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ I hope Thaksin lives to a ripe old age...his son will inherit the lot and that is a very scary prospect for this country....!

He's been getting very active of late, lots of postings on Facebook and public profile raising activities. I shudder to think.....

----------


## Yasojack

Providing another source of info. is there a problem with it ?.

Whatever Thaksin says will become distorted, it sells better.




> Originally Posted by Yasojack
> 
> 
> And heres what he said according to a indonesian newspaper
> 
> THAKSIN return to Thailand only for reconciliation - Bisnis.com
> 
> 
> And your point is..................?

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> ^ I hope Thaksin lives to a ripe old age...his son will inherit the lot and that is a very scary prospect for this country....!
> 
> He's been getting very active of late, lots of postings on Facebook and public profile raising activities. I shudder to think.....


Who? The kid? Why is he scarier than any other spoiled Thai kid?

----------


## Yasojack

most probably because he has celebrity status :Smile:

----------


## tomta

> Square head listen carefully: YOU are the cause of all the existing problems in this country.


All the problems? Perhaps some but I think you need to cultivate a sense of pespective, Noelbino,

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by Mr Lick
> 
> 
> He's barking mad, the only road to reconcilliation is through his demise.
> 
> Maybe a shoulder wound would bring him to his senses
> 
> 
> The fact of the matter is this is and always has been the beginning of the end of the few families in their we-own-everything-pyramid. So yeah you could kill off Thaksin, but another one would just come along a year or two from now. The dispute is between wealthy clans and which side they're on. The silver lining (IMO) is the general public has been awakened and are demanding in on the game - even in a small way - with better access to education and hope for their kids. I'll bet that's an undesirable consequence for Thaksin (and certainly for his opponents), but one he was prepared to live with if mobilizing the masses would get him back to Thailand and his position of power, influence - and of course money (e.g. returned - though like the Saudi Gems, it's probably already been doled out to the other camp). The eventual outcome for the old family systems of only a handful of hundred families owning everything is approaching its end. It's just a matter of time. If not by Thaksin, then by another. Thaksin's day will come too - now or later, I don't care but I hope for a much brighter future of particpation in democracy and opportunity for the next generation of Thai and a bitter end to the _"Khun ben dek khong krai?"_ system.


Don't you think what has happened over the last 10 years has hindered the process rather than helped it? The future only looks as if there has to some kind of authoritarian ruler to rein in the various out of control factions. I can only see thaksin, with some kind of alliance with the military putting a lid back on all this. I don't think it's a good choice, but REALISTICALLY is there another one? But thaksin has really fcuked things up for himself and everyone else.

----------


## robuzo

> ^ I hope Thaksin lives to a ripe old age...his son will inherit the lot and that is a very scary prospect for this country....!
> 
> He's been getting very active of late, lots of postings on Facebook and public profile raising activities. I shudder to think.....


Ooooh, he's big on Facebook. Give us some more reasons why Thaksin's idiot son is worse than any other idiot son, even other  more potentially wealthy and much-loathed sons?

----------


## longway

> I am seriously beginning to wonder if Thaksin and his parties' policies are not being deliberately designed to destroy Thailand both socially and economically, perhaps as a maniacal revenge because he now realises he has little chance of returning to Thailand.
> 
> The constant refrain about "reconciliation", Charter amendments etc. merely stirs the Red and Yellow mobs to more confrontation and social division.
> 
> Populist and totally unsustainable policies are now so embedded in the Thai Economic order that it will be almost impossible to roll them back without causing even more resentment from the Red shirt mob, even though the evidence of the destruction these policies cause is there for them to see. As an example the Rice pledging scheme with its' so-called guaranteed prices for farmers, far above world Market prices, has not benefited farmers but has reduced Thai Rice exports by about 40%, left the Government with warehouses full of unsold rice and lost Thailand the place of top Rice exporter in the world - a position it had held for many years. Despite all of which the Government - i.e. Thaksin - has already stated that the Policy will be continued next year.
> 
> That is only one example of course but I am becoming more and more convinced that there is a pattern in all of this.
> 
> Patrick


 It's a terrible policy, but it's not a populist one, it's designed to dole out money To the puyais in isaan and the north to ensure that his sister survives in government. Why do you think they rushed this policy more even more than the amnesty bills and charter amendments. The floods also played a delaying role for those too of course.

----------


## tomta

> Ooooh, he's big on Facebook. Give us some more reasons why Thaksin's idiot son is worse than any other idiot son, even other more potentially wealthy and much-loathed sons?


You can't actually go too far into the subject of idiot sons. Could be a criminal offence

----------


## robuzo

^Don't have the foggiest idea what you mean.

----------


## tomta

> Don't you think what has happened over the last 10 years has hindered the process rather than helped it? The future only looks as if there has to some kind of authoritarian ruler to rein in the various out of control factions. I can only see thaksin, with some kind of alliance with the military putting a lid back on all this. I don't think it's a good choice, but REALISTICALLY is there another one? But thaksin has really fcuked things up for himself and everyone else.


Thaksin just opened Pandora's box. If it hadn't been him, as Tom Sawyer says, it would have been somebody else. You may be right, Longway, the military may come in and put the clamps on for a long time. On the other hand, good things might happen. And there have been good things that have happened as a consequence of the last ten years. Ta have been sawanged.

----------


## tomta

> Don't have the foggiest idea what you mean.


And of course, neither do I.

----------


## StrontiumDog

Thaksin unclear on return to Thailand - FT.com

 July 18, 2012 5:40 pm

*Thaksin unclear on return to Thailand*

  By Gwen Robinson in Bangkok and Ben Bland in Jakarta

       Thailand’s former prime minister Thaksin  Shinawatra has backtracked from vows to make an imminent return to  Thailand, where he faces corruption-related charges, while his  supporters in Bangkok battle for legal moves to give him an amnesty.

 Speaking while at a conference in Jakarta on Tuesday, Mr Thaksin told  the FT: “Definitely I’d like to go back but I don’t want to go back and  create more conflict. I want to go back to help reconciliation ... I  don’t know how [to go back] yet.” 

In  recent months, Mr Thaksin, who lives in self-imposed exile in Dubai but  spends most of his time in southeast Asia, has told supporters he would  be back “very, very soon”.

 His appearance at the conference came a few days after Thailand’s constitutional court delivered a mixed victory for the government of prime minister Yingluck Shinawatra, Mr Thaksin’s sister, in a battle focused on overhauling the constitution.

 The court cleared her ruling party of accusations that it was trying  to destabilise the monarchy by proposing to rewrite the constitution.  But it added that the charter could not be redrawn without a national  referendum – an exercise that would be politically fraught and  protracted.

 A prerequisite for Mr Thaksin to return without facing arrest would  be constitutional changes to enable the annulment of corruption-related  charges against him. Ms Yingluck’s Pheu Thai party has been paving the  way to rewrite the constitution, drawn up under an interim military  government following the 2006 coup that ousted Mr Thaksin. 

 Independent academics have backed their claims that the charter has  many “undemocratic features”, including empowering the judiciary to  dissolve political parties and ban MPs from politics. But opposition  leaders have complained that a charter overhaul would destabilise the  monarchy. While tensions over the case have been resolved for now, many  analysts believe the reprieve is only temporary. 

 A crucial element is the parallel effort by Ms Yingluck’s party to push related parliamentary bills on “amnesty and reconciliation”,  which would absolve all parties to the 2010 violence, when “red shirt”  supporters of Mr Thaksin clashed with the military, leaving nearly a  hundred dead and hundreds more injured. More importantly, warn  opposition Democrats and other critics, the amnesty measures would also  facilitate Mr Thaksin’s return and his drive to reclaim more than $1.4bn  worth of seized assets.

 In Jakarta on Tuesday, Mr Thaksin reiterated his amnesty calls,  saying the proposed bills were “key to reconciliation” and long overdue.  “Everyone says the same thing, that reconciliation must include  amnesty,” he told the forum. “If you learn how to forgive, that’s the  only key, it’s the key to reconciliation. I’d like to urge all parties  in Thailand to forgive.”

 Meanwhile, some critics questioned Mr Thaksin’s starring role at the  Jakarta forum on “peace and reconciliation in southeast Asia”. The  conference, hosted by the Strategic Review group which has close ties to  Indonesia’s government, was launched by Indonesian president Susilo  Bambang Yudhoyono. As well as Mr Thaksin, José Ramos-Horta, the former  Timor-Leste president, and Anwar Ibrahim, Malaysian opposition leader  and former deputy prime minister, were billed as “Asian statesmen”.

 Korn Chatikavanij, deputy leader of Thailand’s opposition Democrat  party, questioned the group’s inclusion of Mr Thaksin, telling the FT:  “I am assuming the other politicians on that panel were not aware of  Thaksin’s participation, as it doesn’t make them look good regarding  their own attitudes to corruption; but given that the Thai government is  openly controlled by Thaksin ... I can almost excuse the organiser’s  lapse of judgment. If we ourselves are not committed in our fight  against corruption ... then we can’t expect others to respect Thailand  and its institutions.”

----------


## LooseBowels

> then we can’t expect others to respect Thailand and its institutions.”


He's talking about the PAD yellow nutter junta , and the Institution of Democracy.

And  everybody knows so, because the cat is outa the bag as far as the thai axis of evil and the international democratic bodies are concerned. :Smile: 

You can't argue with that

----------


## Yasojack

Its amusing to read as the day progressed, Thaksins Statement has been jumped on by other media and been distorted, and had contributions from others sources, the opposing factions seem to have a OCD about Thaksin and it gets funnier by the day.

In the long run PT will get what they want unless of course if the idiots take over the country once again under there un-democratic waving of the flag.

----------


## BobR

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> but hated by the elite who see him as a threat to the monarchy.
> 
> 
> That old canard again- Thaksin is and was never a threat to the Monarchy, and they well know it.
> Thaksin is a threat to *Them* because 1- he is popular with the people of Thailand and 2- they therefore had to share their corruption monies and other trappings with him and his cronies.


Or hated by the elite who legitimately don't want to pay higher taxes to support silly give away programs.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> Don't you think what has happened over the last 10 years has hindered the process rather than helped it? The future only looks as if there has to some kind of authoritarian ruler to rein in the various out of control factions. I can only see thaksin, with some kind of alliance with the military putting a lid back on all this. I don't think it's a good choice, but REALISTICALLY is there another one? But thaksin has really fcuked things up for himself and everyone else.
> 
> 
> Thaksin just opened Pandora's box. If it hadn't been him, as Tom Sawyer says, it would have been somebody else. You may be right, Longway, the military may come in and put the clamps on for a long time. On the other hand, good things might happen. And there have been good things that have happened as a consequence of the last ten years. Ta have been sawanged.


It's not true, thaksin put the lid on the box, or tried too. The 1997 constitution opened pandora's box, which was giving voice to the thailand's people, which he substituted with his own, in return he promised economic prosperity, whether he could have delivered it,we will never know, what he did was over reach himself with unecessary confrontations and fcuk it up for everyone.

He has single handedly done more to retard democracy in this country than anyone in recent years. In some ways I agree with those who say that his death would be a blessing. I'm not too sure another one who has been as damaging as him will come along too quickly, but it's true there is that possibility.

I think the so called dta sawang also mischaracterize thailand's history with some potted ideas with one eye firmly welded shut.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Former Thai PM Tells Jakarta He Forgives Those Who Ousted Him | The Jakarta Globe
*
*Former Thai PM Tells Jakarta He Forgives Those Who Ousted Him*

*Ismira Lutfia* |  July 18, 2012

 
_From left, Malaysian opposition leader Anwar  Ibrahim, former Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, former East  Timorese President Jose Ramos Horta and former Indonesian Foreign  Affairs Minister Hassan Wirajuda attended a forum in Jakarta on Tuesday.  (EPA Photo/Bagus Indhono)_

 Former Thai Prime Minister Thaksin  Shinawatra told a forum in Jakarta on Tuesday that forgiving was the key  to solving conflict, vowing that he would never have any intention to  seek revenge against those deposed him from power six years ago. 

“I never want to take revenge out on anyone,” the Thai billionaire said. 

Thaksin,  who was Thailand’s prime minister from 2001 until 2006, when he was  overthrown in a military coup, said that Thai people should have moved  toward a reconciliation process a long time ago, and detach themselves  from the past when the country was still divided and in conflict. 

Speaking at the first Strategic Review Forum, he said the continued conflicts have caused Thai people to suffer. 

“I  would suggest that everybody in Thailand detach themselves from the  past,” said Thaksin, citing an example the way Japan forgave the United  States, which dropped atomic bombs on it during World War II, and became  a close ally. 

“If you learn how to forgive, that is success for reconciliation,” Thaksin said. 

Speaking  at the same forum, Malaysian opposition leader Anwar Ibrahim praised  Indonesia for being able to bury the hatchet and forget its past  acrimony while striving to improve the country. 

“I am not  suggesting that Indonesia doesn’t face major problems, but you are able  to move on when you’re not engrossed with the past,” he said. 

Anwar said that Malaysia, unlike Indonesia, continues to be trapped in its past conflicts. 

“It would take a lot of courage and effort to move forward,” said Anwar. 

The  former Malaysian deputy prime minister has been accused of sexual  misconduct in his country. He said that he and his family should move  forward. 

Thaksin agreed, saying: “We can’t forget what went wrong but let’s not be captive to the past.” 

Thaksin’s  younger sister Yingluck assumed the Thai leadership following elections  last July. While she has so far not taken steps toward pardoning her  brother to smooth his return to public life in the country, many  analysts have predicted that is likely during her term as the nation’s  leader. 

Ismira Lutfia

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Its amusing to read as the day progressed, Thaksins Statement has been jumped on by other media and been distorted, and had contributions from others sources, the opposing factions seem to have a OCD about Thaksin and it gets funnier by the day.
> 
> In the long run PT will get what they want unless of course if the idiots take over the country once again under there un-democratic waving of the flag.


Sorry, which other media would that be?

----------


## StrontiumDog

Thaksin Says Sister a Better Prime Minister Than He Was - Southeast Asia Real Time - WSJ
July 19, 2012, 11:30 AM SGT*Thaksin Says Sister a Better Prime Minister Than He Was*

*By Ahmad Pathoni*

 _
Agence France-Presse/Getty Images__A portrait of ousted  premier Thaksin Shinawatra and current Thai Prime Minister Yingluck is  seen in front of Bangkok’s Parliament House during a demonstration on  June 7.

_  JAKARTA – Fugitive former Thai leader Thaksin Shinawatra said in an  appearance in Jakarta that his sister Yingluck Shinawatra was doing a  better job as prime minister than he did.

 Ms. Yingluck became prime minister a year ago in a landslide election  that was widely viewed as a referendum on her brother’s rule, several  years after he was deposed in a 2006 military coup.

 “Yes, so far so good. Better than me, definitely,” Mr. Thaksin said  on Tuesday when asked if his sister was a good prime minister. Mr.  Thaksin, who now lives in Dubai to avoid imprisonment on a 2008  corruption conviction which he says was politically motivated, was  speaking in Jakarta after a seminar that marked the launch of Strategic  Review, a new journal there.

 Many in Thailand still see Mr. Thaksin, a former telecommunications  tycoon, as a hero of the poor after he pushed through populist policies  such as a low-cost health care program for Thais. But critics, including  many Thai military and business leaders, said he engaged in corruption  and human rights abuses while he was in power.

 Political opponents say Mr. Thaksin continues to exert heavy  influence over his sister’s government, despite living overseas, and he  appears often in neighboring countries. But he likened his role in her  administration to an encyclopedia.

 “If they want to consult me, I’m available any time. But if they don’t, I can’t force them. That’s what an encyclopedia does.”

 Mr. Thaksin said last week’s ruling by Thailand’s Constitutional  Court – which clarified rules governing how Ms. Yingluck’s governing  party could try to amend the country’s constitution – had nothing to do  with whether he could go back to the country or not. Political opponents  have said Ms. Yingluck’s Puea Thai party wants to change the country’s  constitution to make it easier for Mr. Thaksin to return, and they  sought to challenge the party’s plans with the latest court case.

 Instead, Mr. Thaksin said, the constitution needs to be revised to  make it more democratic, since it was written in the wake of the 2006  coup.

 “I would like to urge everybody in Thailand, especially the  Constitutional Court, that Thailand needs to move forward in a  democratic manner, not just like this,” he said. “This is not good for  the country.”

 Political analysts had warned that a court ruling against Puea Thai  could have led to the party’s dissolution. But the court stopped short  of that, instead laying out new conditions that could slow the  government’s efforts to change the constitution. Before rewriting the  entire charter, the government must receive approval through a public  referendum– otherwise, it would be limited to amending sections of the  charter individually, the ruling said.

 Party leaders have said they are discussing ways to proceed with their plans to revise the constitution.

----------


## Butterfly

> Thaksin Says Sister a Better Prime Minister Than He Was


can't be hard to accomplish, even Abhisit was better than he was

I quite liker her, let's hope they will keep her for the full term

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Thaksin Criticizes Court Ruling, Calls for Talks Over His Return - Businessweek
*
*Thaksin Criticizes Court Ruling, Calls for Talks Over His Return*

    By  Daniel Ten Kate and Ann Koh on July 20, 2012 

    Self-exiled former Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra criticized a court ruling last week that complicated efforts by his allies to change the constitution, and called for talks over his return. 

The Constitutional Court on July 13 said a referendum was needed before a charter ratified after the 2006 coup that ousted Thaksin could be rewritten. The party of Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra, Thaksin’s sister, will “digest” the ruling before deciding how to move forward, he said. 

The decision “shows what we call judicial overreach,” Thaksin said in a television interview on Singapore’s Channel NewsAsia. “It’s against the rule of the separation of powers,” which is central to democracy. 

Thaksin’s allies are weighing whether to defy the court and press ahead with a vote to overhaul the constitution during the next parliamentary session that starts on Aug. 1. Yingluck’s party wants to reduce the power of appointed bodies it says are undermining elected governments to serve the interest of royalists who backed the coup. 

“Those who benefit from full-fledged democracy want to bring it back,” Thaksin said. “Those who fear democracy may be developed too far resist it. That’s the root cause of the problem.” 

Thaksin has lived overseas since fleeing a jail sentence in 2008 on charges stemming from a military-appointed panel. Thailand’s parliament is considering a broad amnesty for political offenses since the coup, a move that could overturn the two-year sentence he has avoided by remaining overseas. 

*Thaksin’s Wealth* 

It may also undo a court ruling that led to the seizure of about $1.5 billion of Thaksin’s fortune in 2010, two weeks before his supporters began protests that led to more than 90 deaths and ended in a military crackdown. Thaksin’s opponents have vowed to resist the initiatives in parliament, saying they undermine the rule of law. 

Thaksin said his return to Thailand would depend on when reconciliation occurs. His enemies have turned him into “Dracula” in part because parties backed by him have won the past five elections, including one last year, he said. 

“It’s time to face and talk,” Thaksin said in the interview. “We can speak Thai together, we can talk open heart. What do you want? What do you worry about?”

----------


## StrontiumDog

*We have one colour -- Thai colour : Thaksin - The Nation
*
*We have one colour -- Thai colour : Thaksin*

         Channel News Asia/Singapore July 20, 2012  2:48 pm 

*Former Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra is  waiting for national reconciliation to happen before he returns to his  homeland.*

          Thaksin said this in an exclusive interview with Channel News Asia on  the sidelines of the Strategic Review Forum in Jakarta on Tuesday.

     Thaksin may be far from home, but home is never far from his mind.

     "I can go everywhere in the world, except my homeland. Why? I should be  able to go to my homeland, my motherland. But now every country  welcomes me, except my motherland," he said.

     "(This makes me) feel bad. There’s something wrong, (and) that is the  big misunderstanding (between the Thai political factions). It’s time to  face and talk."

     Thaksin also says it was time for forgiveness. "I forgive everyone.  Don’t worry that they might you know, insult me with verbal, or with  legal, or whatever. I forgive them all. I just want to be part of Thai  society. I want to live my normal life," he said.

     At the Strategic Review Forum in Jakarta, Thaksin called for a  highly-controversial amnesty, which he says is key to long-overdue  reconciliation in Thailand.

     "I want to see reconciliation. I want to see peace and unity in  Thailand. I will bring my people and come together with those who are  against me and then we will do something. We will try to find something  that we can have activities together," he said.

     Thaksin said South Africa’s Nelson Mandala served as an inspiration for him.

     "If you were to remember, Nelson Mandela used rugby as the vehicle for  the blacks and the whites to come together and play together. South  Africa has a very good rugby team until now," he said.

     "We might do something that can create the activities that those can  come together with no colours. We have one colour -- Thai colour."

     The fugitive former premier says Thais want to move on from the current political divide.

     "They want reconciliation. ... They want Thailand to be like in the old  days, that we are the Land of Smiles. We can smile to each other, we  don’t have to ask: you are red or you are yellow?"

     The Thai government, led by Thaksin’s sister Yingluck, has put forward  reconciliation proposals, but the parliamentary vote on these have been  postponed due to political tensions. 

     It seems Thaksin may have to wait a little longer before he can go home.

----------


## Blue water dreaming

> "I can go everywhere in the world, except my homeland. Why?


This is not true. He can return to Thailand any time he wants. Even criminals can go home.



> Thaksin said South Africa’s Nelson Mandala served as an inspiration for him.


I'm sure Nelson Mandela would be appalled to hear his name mentioned in the same sentence as Thaksin.

----------


## noelbino

^^^
Agree. He could have come back anytime  and faced his sentence.
But no! Everyone is against ME!
Face it. you fucked up, so suffer the consequences.

----------


## nostromo

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> "I can go everywhere in the world, except my homeland. Why?
> 
> 
> This is not true. He can return to Thailand any time he wants. Even criminals can go home.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually they met, some time after Thaksin, the democratically elected prime minister was "removed" by military when Thaksin was in United Nations. 

No wonder, Mr. Mandala and Mr. Thaksin have something in common. Let you think what it is.

----------


## nostromo

> Agree. He could have come back anytime and faced his sentence.
> But no! Everyone is against ME!
> Face it. you fucked up, so suffer the consequences.


Thaksin was convicted by fake court under military government control, for land case of his then wife, which was at the market price. To put it short.

----------


## Mid

> Thaksin was convicted by fake court under military government control, for land case of his then wife, which was at the market price. To put it short.


That's the rub ,

there are plenty of other things to hang him for *BUT* others go down with him .

----------


## nostromo

> there are plenty of other things to hang him for BUT others go down with him


But they never found out any other, with all their full force and resources of military government,  they did try every angle. And I see you are referring to unknown entities. Can not comment. 

Other things to hang him for would be war on drugs? There we disagree. Would you say US President should have been taken over by miscontents in military after US war on drugs and what would you think of military takeover in US? Since there would be none. Policy was made, rules followed. Democracy.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Democrats slam Thaksin's criticism of court - The Nation
*
*Democrats slam Thaksin's criticism of court*

         The Nation on Sunday July 22, 2012  1:00 am 

*Former premier Thaksin Shinawatra was assailed  yesterday for attempting to discredit the Constitution Court and  criticising its verdict in the charter-change case.*

              Democrat Party MP Thepthai Senpong said that after the court ruling on  July 13, Thaksin told his legal adviser he accepted the verdict even  though he was not satisfied with every point made by the judges. But  later, Thaksin and his cronies thought the verdict was an obstacle in  their bid to amend the charter so they criticised the court through the  foreign media.

     Thepthai said Pheu Thai Party was seeking to amend the Constitution and  he believed it had a plan to amend the charter in two steps. First, it  will amend the articles that block its attempt to amend the whole  charter such as Article 68 (paragraph 2) and Article 165 (paragraph 2)  and once these are amended, the party would call a referendum to draft a  new charter.

     He said Pheu Thai could not amend too many articles because the  procedure would be too lengthy and make  amendments impossible. Besides,  Thaksin couldn't wait that long for the Constitution to be changed in  his favour, as he fears the current government may not complete its  term.

     Siam Samakki Group leader Prasarn Maruekpitak said Thaksin's remark  against the Court's verdict was nothing short of confirmation that he  was desperate to return home without having to face jail. Thaksin  believed that the court's verdict on holding a public referendum to  decide on amending the charter was an obstacle to his return.

     "Thaksin is exploiting the red shirts by pushing them to intimidate the  Constitution Court and using them to increase his bargaining power, and  in the meantime he also pushes for charter amendment. His methodology  does not benefit the government and the country but only brings about  more conflicts,'' he said.

     Pheu Thai Party spokesman Prompong Nopparit denied that some party MPs  met Thaksin in Hong Kong to lobby for positions in a possible Cabinet  reshuffle. He said they went to wish Thaksin well on his birthday and  there was no political significance.

     He said Prime Minister Yingluck had not given a signal for a reshuffle,  though he believed that Cabinet changes would happen after the House  reconvenes for an ordinary session. He dismissed as nonsense reports  that Foreign Minister Surapong Towichukchaikul would replace Yongyuth  Wichaidit as Interior Minister. He said those who spread such rumours  wanted to create infighting in the party.

     He said the PM trusted Yongyuth and if he was removed from the post, that would cause a stir in the party.

     Prompong admitted that there might be a change in the economic  ministers but not Finance Minister Kittiratt Na-Ranong, because the  party believed he was doing well.

----------


## Gerbil

> No wonder, Mr. Mandala and Mr. Thaksin have something in common. Let you think what it is.


They're both terrorists, except one did his time in prison and the other shat his pants and ran?

----------


## nostromo

> They're both terrorists, except one did his time in prison and the other shat his pants and ran?


New angle to this. Interesting, but expected of you. Your kind usually escaped to south america, but you chose to come to Thailand?

Oh, you dropped your swastika. There, have it back.

----------


## nostromo

> They're both terrorists



I hear a song coming up. Must move up to my Korg.

Free-e Nelson Mandela
Free-e Thaksin Shinawatra

----------


## sabang

> Democrats slam Thaksin's criticism of court


They would- it is their most influential ally remaining.



> discredit the Constitution Court


Of course, they did that themselves. Don't blame the messengers.

----------


## expattaffy

Well as far as i am concerned we are not Thais and we have no say in the matter so we should not pass comment. I certainly didnt leave politics in the UK to get onvolved with them here. ::chitown::

----------


## fiddler

There's a simple solution:  Just come home and do the time. 
They'll probably give you a nice room, 2 years is less than you've spent running and probably less than you will in the future. 
It's the only  way to get accepted back into their hearts.

----------


## nostromo

> There's a simple solution:  Just come home and do the time. 
> They'll probably give you a nice room, 2 years is less than you've spent running and probably less than you will in the future. 
> It's the only  way to get accepted back into their hearts.


It is a matter of principle. He did not do the crime, why should he do the time. 
Let's wait for a new democratic court, and have the trial again. Then whatever the outcome is, issue is cleared.

----------


## frank barber

^  :rofl:   :rofl:

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Thaksin said to want unity bill | Bangkok Post: breakingnews
*
*Thaksin said to want unity bill*
Published: 22/07/2012 at 05:11 PMOnline news:
 Opponents of ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra  believe he is preparing to push the government into moving ahead with  the reconciliation bill in the new session of parliament as the charter  amendment is still uncertain.

 Green Politics leader Suriyasai Katasila said there was every chance  Thaksin will switch tactics by ordering the government to quietly slip  the reconciliation bill into the parliament's agenda when it reconvenes  on Aug 1.

 This was because the fugitive ex-premier may have to wait a long time  for the rewriting of a new charter that would pave the way for his  return home. The Pheu Thai Party, which Thaksin effectively controls,  cannot expect a majority vote in parliament anymore after the  Constitution Court suggested a referendum be conducted if the whole  charter was to be rewritten.

 “One must not forget that amending the charter and pushing through  the reconciliation bill are meant to serve one and the same goal - to  whitewash and pardon Thaksin. When the charter amendment process is  stalled and becomes unpredictable, [the government] may have to push for  the reconciliation bill instead,” Mr Suriyasai said.

 The former coordinator of the yellow-shirt People's Alliance for  Democracy (PAD), said Pheu Thai had spread rumours about several  different options to review the present charter, but actually it was  preparing to rush the  reconciliation bill through in three consecutive  readings as they had done with the amendment bill in the last session of  parliament.

 However, the government at that time underestimated opposition to its controversial draft legislation, he said.  

 The reason House Speaker Somsak Kiatsuranont recently strongly  advised Thaksin that the reconciliation process be postponed for three  to six months while wooing public support was because he had not  expected the amendment bill to be stalled in parliament, Mr Suriyasai  said. 

 It should be noted that Thaksin had given priority to the  reconciliation draft bill over charter amendment, which was a difficult  and time-consuming task. He said the more time the charter  amendment took, the more people would know that the amendment efforts  were to benefit only one person. Public opposition to the bill may even  grow stronger then.  

 “I want society to keep an eye on the parliament session that will  start in the coming days. [The government] may surreptitiously slip in  the reconciliation draft legislation and put it among the top priorities  of the new session of parliament,” Mr Suriyasai said.

----------


## sabang

Thaksin = Red herring.

----------


## Butterfly

that's why we need to get rid of him ASAP so the real issues can be addressed

Thaksin Killed == Path to real Democracy

----------


## nostromo

> Thaksin Killed == Path to real Democracy


Inciting violence again, are you. 

And I can see your "real democracy" is yellow PAD "new politics" where only the selected people can vote. 

Eh... What makes you think you would be with the select few? You are a euro loser, dont have the genes. 

Insanity begins at home...

----------


## geoff

I used to live in Thailand forty years ago, and it was the most beautiful place on this planet.   But now.  It has dropped down to the worst place.  They hate, "falangs", and they do their utmost to, "rip us off mercilessly", thinking that, that will be good for their future..............Wrong...................They are shooting themselves in the foot, but are too stupid to see it..............Thank god I got out in time..............Myself, and my Thai wife of over thirty years, now settled in England.  Gods own country.......!!!

----------


## geoff

:kma: I used to live in Thailand forty years ago, and it was the most beautiful place on this planet. But now. It has dropped down to the worst place. They hate, "falangs", and they do their utmost to, "rip us off mercilessly", thinking that, that will be good for their future..............Wrong...................They are shooting themselves in the foot, but are too stupid to see it..............Thank god I got out in time..............Myself, and my Thai wife of over thirty years, now settled in England. Gods own country.......!!!

----------


## Yasojack

How about the dregs of many countries have come to Thailand to live and the Thais are just sick and tired of there shit.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*No policy to bring Thaksin home | Bangkok Post: news
*
*No policy to bring Thaksin home*
Published: 26/08/2012 at 02:43 PMOnline news: Local News
 The government does not have a policy to get  Thaksin Shinawatra extradited because the Foreign Ministry does not know  the exact whereabouts of the deposed prime minister, Foreign Minister  Surapong Tovichakchaikul said on Sunday.

 Mr Surapong said this in response to criticism that the Foreign  Ministry had not done anything to seek the extradition of Thaksin.

 Whoever knows the exact whereabouts of the former prime minister abroad can inform the Foreign Ministry, he said.

 In order to seek the extradition of an individual, the Foreign  Ministry, on knowing of his or her place of residence, is required to  send a request to the Office of the Attorney General through a  diplomatic channel.

 "The ministry is not an agency directly responsible for this matter.  Moreover, the Thai authorities cannot ask any foreign country to  extradite a person if they do not know his or her exact place of  residence," Mr Surapong said.

 Apart from a number of legal cases awaiting him in the country for  further proceedings, Thaksin fled the country before the Supreme Court's  Criminal Division for Holders of Political Positions sentenced him to  two years imprisonment for abuse of authority to help his former wife  Khunying Potjaman to buy a plot of land on Ratchadapisek road.


-----
MP: Thaksin in Myanmar in Nov | Bangkok Post: news

*MP: Thaksin in Myanmar in Nov*
Published: 26/08/2012 at 01:07 PMOnline news: Local News
 Former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra will be  in Myanmar in November, Pheu Thai MP for Nakhon Ratchasima Suchart  Pinyo revealed on Sunday.

 Mr Pinyo expected a large number of Pheu Thai MPs and red-shirt  supporters to head for Myanmar both in groups and as individuals to meet  Thaksin.

 The MP, however, did not explain the purpose of Thaksin's trip to Myanmar.

----------


## Mid

> MP: Thaksin in Myanmar in Nov


bit of scheduling disaster then  :mid: 

https://teakdoor.com/thailand-and-asi...naypyidaw.html (Burma : Thai PM set to visit Naypyidaw in September)

----------


## Butterfly

> because the Foreign Ministry does not know the exact whereabouts of the deposed prime minister,


 :rofl:

----------


## noelbino

> Originally Posted by &quot;StrontiumDog&quot;
> 
> because the Foreign Ministry does not know the exact whereabouts of the deposed prime minister,


 Perhaps they should ask all of those PT MPs who [crawl to] call  on him?

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Bhichai Rattakul's unrealised plan | Bangkok Post: opinion
*
*Bhichai Rattakul's unrealised plan*

Published: 27/08/2012 at 06:25 PMOnline news: Opinion
 Although former Democrat leader Bhichai Rattakul  retired from active politics decades ago, he was frustrated by the  colour-coded political impasse of the last few years and tried to do  something about it - but his own party blocked his efforts.

 Mr Bhichai came under heavy fire from the party's own supporters when  he criticised the party over an unruly incident involving Democrat MPs  in the House of Representatives on May 30. He made the comments during  an interview with Voice TV, a pro-Thaksin cable television channel.

 During a heated debate in the House on the controversial  reconciliation bills, about a dozen Democrat MPs rushed toward House  Speaker Somsak Kiatsuranond, surrounded him and loudly accused the  PheuThai MP of being biased toward the government. At the height of the  confusion, Democrat MP Rangsima Rodrasamee seized the speaker’s chair  from Mr Somsak.

In the interview, Mr Bhichai criticised the  Democrats’ conduct and demanded that they make an apology. Shortly after  the interview was broadcast and posted on the social media, the savage  criticism began. He was accused of having been bought by former prime  minister Thaksin Shinawatra, of betraying the party and of being a  chameleon.

The retired veteran politican appears unperturbed by  the offensive remarks of his critics. During an interview with Matichon  newspaper last week he talked calmy about how he felt about the Democrat  Party and its leader, Abhisit Vejjjajiva, and his unrealised plan to  bring about national reconciliation.

 
Bhichai Rattakul (L) and Abhisit Vejjajiva (Photo by Chanat Katanyu)

 Mr Bhichai said Mr Abhisit was the right choice as party leader  because he is a man of principle, honest and committed to his work.  However, the current Democrat leader has one weak point – that is, he  does not know how to make the best use of the people in the party.

Mr  Bhichai recalled when he first joined the Democrat Party about five  decades ago he was taught by then party leader Kuang Abhaiwong that a  key factor in the success or failure of a party leader is how to make  use of people – that is to bring out the different expertise and talents  of individual party members, put them together and utilise them.

He  said that Mr Abhisit not only does not know how to make best use of  people, but also does not make use of the veteran politicians in the  party.

Asked about his ideas for reconciliation, Mr Bhichai  disclosed that he thought about it two years ago and had consulted a few  "phuyai" about a plan to fly to Dubai to meet with convicted former  prime minister Thaksin.
 Then he elaborated on his plan, which he claimed Thaksin accepted,  which was as follows: He would fly there to meet Thaksin and would  convince him to accept the two-year jail term imposed by the Supreme  Court’s Criminal Division for Holders of Political Positions and they  would then both fly back to Thailand together.

Upon arrival in  Thailand, they would travel together to Siriraj Hospital for an audience  with HM the King, in Thaksin's capacity as a former prime minister, and  seek a royal pardon. If an audience was not granted, Mr Bhichai would  have promised to ask senior palace officials to accept a bouquet of  flowers from Thaksin as well as his petition for a royal pardon.

After  that, both would travel by car to Bang Kwang maximum-security prison.  Mr Bhichai said he would have spent time in prison with Thaksin, but in  another cell, until a royal pardon was granted. This was a guarantee to  the ex-premier that his days in prison would be limited, not the full  two years of the sentence imposed by the court.

 He felt the deal was a win-win solution to Thailand’s protracted political conflict.

"Thaksin and his Pheu Thai party would be the heroes, as well as Mr Abhisit," said the former Democrat leader.

Mr  Bhichai claimed that his terms were acceptable to Thaksin, but  then-prime minister Abhisit objected, insisting that the conviction must  stand.

In the Matichon interview, he made a final interesting remark which is worthy of attention.

 "The Democrats have insisted that Khun Thaksin must face the two-year  jail term without giving him a way out. In politics, there must be a  way out; do not force someone into a corner because he will fight back  fiercely. And the Democrats do not have a way out," he said.

Mr  Bhichai will certainly be bombarded with even more heavy criticism for  his candid interview about Mr Abhisit and about his plan to bring  Thaksin home in order to resolve our ugly political conflict. Some might  wonder why he chose to spill the beans now, and not much earlier.

Unfortunately,  his plan has been overtaken by several events in the past two years,  including the bloody red-shirt protests in Bangkok which led to the  deaths of 92 people and the burning of certain parts of Bangkok. It is  now history.

But as an after-thought, does Mr Bhichai’s plan  sound pragmatic and logical? Is it true that there must be a way out in  politics, otherwise we will be forever stuck in this dilemma?

Last  but not least, I do not think Mr Bhichai is a changed man, a Thaksin  admirer or a chameleon as alleged by his critics. He is, like so many of  us, just sick to death of the endless political insanity and just  wanted to help out -- by offering a way out, even if it didn't please  everyone.


Writer: Veera Prateepchaikul

----------


## MrG

> Mr Bhichai came under heavy fire from the party's own supporters when he criticised the party over an unruly incident involving Democrat MPs in the House of Representatives on May 30. He made the comments during an interview with Voice TV, a pro-Thaksin cable television channel.


Seems they treat their own who disagree with them like they treat the majority of the country who disagree with them--like dirt. 

They're street thugs with money and fashionable clothes.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingn...ksin-come-back
*
*Abac: Let Thaksin come back*Published:  9/09/2012 at 01:12 PMOnline news:A majority of people are of the opinion that  former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra should be allowed to return to  the country to fight cases against him in court and that the government  under Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra should be given a chance to  continue to work, Abac Poll revealed on Sunday.

 The poll was conducted between Sept 4-8 on 2,251 people aged 18 and  up in Bangkok, Pathum Thani, Lop Buri, Ayutthaya, Chanthaburi, Nakhon  Sawan, Phetchabun, Chiang Mai, Mukdahan, Nong Khai, Chaiyaphum, Khon  Kaen, Surin, Udon Thani, Phatthalung, Surat Thani and Nakhon Si  Thammarat provinces.

 The majority, 83.6 per cent, said the Yingluck government should be  given a chance to continue to work and 16.4 per cent said otherwise.

 Most, or 80.3 per cent, against a minority of 19.7 per cent, said Thaksin should be allowed to return to fight cases in court. 

 Asked what was causing the Yingluck government to be shaky and not  stable enough, most or 90.2 per cent pointed to corruption, 81.7 per  cent to internal fights for self interest inside the government, 74.3  per cent to the people's hardship and poverty, 62.0 per cent to powerful  people outside the government, 57.3 per cent to problems over transfers  of government officials, and 49.5 per cent to the opposition.


-----
Majority of Thais say ex-leader should be allowed to return: poll - CNA ENGLISH NEWS

*Majority of Thais say ex-leader should be allowed to return: poll*

                2012/09/09 17:38:20                                                                                          

Bangkok, Sept. 9  (CNA) The majority of Thai nationals think that fugitive former Prime  Minister Thaksin Shinawatra should be allowed to return to Thailand to  fight his own legal battle, according to the results of a poll published  Sunday.

The poll, conducted by the Assumption Business  Administration College (ABAC) Poll Research Center, showed that 80.3  percent of the pollees think the former leader should be allowed to  return to Thailand.

A total of 83.6 percent of the respondents  also believe that incumbent Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra, Thaksin  Shinawatra's sister, should give her brother another chance to serve his  country.

In addition, nearly 90.2 percent said Thailand's  current administration is shaky and unstable due to corruption problems,  according to the poll, which was conducted between Sept. 4-8 on 2,251  Thai nationals aged 18 and above.

About 81.7 percent said the administration's problems also lie in internal fights for self-interest, the poll said.

The  fugitive former leader was enormously popular among the rural poor  during the years he was in power before being ousted in a military coup  in Sept. 2006. He was accused of corruption and abuse of power.

If he returns to Thailand, he faces a two-year jail sentence, after being convicted in absentia on a conflict-of-interest charge.

----------


## sabang

> The majority, 83.6 per cent, said the Yingluck government should be given a chance to continue to work and 16.4 per cent said otherwise.
> 
> Most, or 80.3 per cent, against a minority of 19.7 per cent, said Thaksin should be allowed to return to fight cases in court.


Game over. Those are huge majorities.

----------


## lom

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> The majority, 83.6 per cent, said the Yingluck government should be given a chance to continue to work and 16.4 per cent said otherwise.
> 
> Most, or 80.3 per cent, against a minority of 19.7 per cent, said Thaksin should be allowed to return to fight cases in court.
> 
> 
> Game over. Those are huge majorities.



Is there anything prohibiting Thaksin to return and fight the cases against him in court?
He wants a general amnesty covering all his crimes before he dares to return.

----------


## Gerbil

What game?

Of course he can come back anytime he wishes to fight the charges. No one is disputing that. There's a cell waiting for him. Of course he could apply for bail, but he's absconded from that once, so.......

----------


## StrontiumDog

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> The majority, 83.6 per cent, said the Yingluck government should be given a chance to continue to work and 16.4 per cent said otherwise.
> 
> Most, or 80.3 per cent, against a minority of 19.7 per cent, said Thaksin should be allowed to return to fight cases in court.
> 
> 
> Game over. Those are huge majorities.


And there is nothing and no one stopping him from returning. 

Do try to remember that he left of his own volition. No one made him. 

One wonders why he doesn't come back.....oh yeah, he wants an amnesty first. Doesn't that strike you as odd, for someone who says he is innocent....?

----------


## StrontiumDog

Oh, damn, I forgot...it's a poll.....

Thus it is a tool of the amart, yellow-shirt propaganda etc etc (fill in paranoid delusion here as you see it), so we should disregard it.

----------


## Mr Lick

> In addition, nearly 90.2 percent said Thailand's current administration is shaky and unstable due to corruption problems


So is this unfortunately  :Smile: 


I don't really know how any poll can be established as credible when a little over 2000 people are asked to give a yes/no answer. Those operating such (ABAC) could do more to compile a poll which included toffee's or similar. ABAC would do well to research/purchase the history of polling at TD which is currently available at minimal cost  :Smile:

----------


## Butterfly

> Game over. Those are huge majorities.


jesus, sab, even by your own standards, this is quite a stupid thing to say

let me remind you that he fled the country and he is a fugitive, of course he should return. I bet a number of yellow nutters would also like him to return, just so they can put a bullet in his head.

----------


## hazz

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> The majority, 83.6 per cent, said the Yingluck government should be given a chance to continue to work and 16.4 per cent said otherwise.
> 
> Most, or 80.3 per cent, against a minority of 19.7 per cent, said Thaksin should be allowed to return to fight cases in court.
> 
> 
> Game over. Those are huge majorities.


I would have to agree with you there, 80% of thai's would like takki to return and deal with his court cases the same way they do, by fighting the case in court. Arguably game over for those looking to give him back his, do what the fuck i want, amrat rights with his amnesty.

A it would have been a much more intestesting pole if the had also asked about granting him an amnesty before his return.

As for the opposition, it must be a bit humiliating for mark to be Ranked 6th in cases of government instability after a raft of self inflicted causes.

If you select truly randomly chosen 1000 or 2000 people then the margin of error between what they tell you and what the country would tell you is 3 and 2 percent. So for polls to be credible all they need to do is ask 1-2 thousand people, the fly in the ointment are things like bias whe signicant groups are missing from those asked for example this poll is a phone poll, so it will fail to capture the opinions of people who don't have phones....   And framing, where the questions are deliberately phrased to get a desired answer. As could have been done here, where a question was chosen which would obviously get a lot of people to say yes bring back taki.

----------


## Notnow

> Originally Posted by sabang
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> ...


When the deck is stacked against you leave the game, period.  There is no 'maybe just one more time'.

----------


## Bobcock

I find it laughable that anyone could even believe that someone like him would actually spend time in jail, he could come back tomorrow, who'd going to put him there??? the Police....not on your nelly......

He can come back any time........

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> The majority, 83.6 per cent, said the Yingluck government should be given a chance to continue to work and 16.4 per cent said otherwise.
> 
> Most, or 80.3 per cent, against a minority of 19.7 per cent, said Thaksin should be allowed to return to fight cases in court.
> 
> 
> Game over. Those are huge majorities.



Yes a huge majority is happy with things as they are, and don't favor a amnesty for thaksin and have enough faith in the judicial system to deal with his issues. 90% think that the governments stability is threatened by corruption and 80% by internal rifts. So much for the threat of the 'Amart '. Game over indeed.

Note that if you look at the regions polled they are mostly in PT heartlands. The questions posed in the poll are poorly framed and can interpreted in many ways. 80% want thaksin's sister to give him another chance to serve his country? What kind of question is that? I would say yes to that one myself.

----------


## sabang

Get real- this obsession with all things Thaksin belongs to just a small segment of the Thai population, who also happen to control the English language 'Press' here, and thus pollute and degrade it with their hyperbole. The results of the Polls speak for themselves, loud and clear- and I can assure you an ABAC Poll would not be deliberately overweighted in PT areas.

Yes, Thaksin will be returning to Thailand, yawn. Now can we finally change the subject, monomaniacs?  ::chitown::

----------


## longway

^ get real?

In a poll that partly deals with thaksin. 

You chose to highlight a section about thaksin, not me. It's funny how you turn up on every thread that has thaksin in it, telling everyone not to be obsessed with Thaksin, but we cannot mention him without being labelled thaksin obsessives? Who has ever claimed that he is of great importance to the vast majority of Thais? It's only red shirts and yellow sorts that obsess about him.

I can take him or leave him, but I find him interesting as he has a huge impact on the politics of this  country, and he goes to great lengths to ensure that he stays central to the politics here, for it's detriment in my opinion, but it's no bother to me if you choose not to talk about him, why do you care that I or anyone else would, in every single thread there you are blathering on about him too.

Other posters have also talked about other aspects of the poll, not dealing with thaksin which you chose to ignore also and focused solely on thaksin. 

Now that you have assured me, I am sure that this poll is not overweighted in PT areas. Thanks. I am sure you will assure me you are not a thaksin obsessive or the earth is flat  :mid:

----------


## hazz

> Get real- this obsession with all things Thaksin belongs to just a small segment of the Thai population, who also happen to control the English language 'Press' here, and thus pollute and degrade it with their hyperbole. The results of the Polls speak for themselves, loud and clear- and I can assure you an ABAC Poll would not be deliberately overweighted in PT areas.
> 
> Yes, Thaksin will be returning to Thailand, yawn. Now can we finally change the subject, monomaniacs?



monomania, well to be honest when it comes to takki monomania with the exception of the departed calgary and loosediaper, I cannot think of many posters as interested in the man as yourself. Since your last but one post, every post has more or less been about your substandard comprehension and analysis skills, rather than takki. hardly takki monomania... perhaps a lack of tolerance for bullshit?

----------


## sabang

> I cannot think of many posters as interested in the man as yourself


I cannot think of many less so. Really.



> your substandard comprehension and analysis skills


One hardly needs even standard comprehensive or analytical skills to demolish what passes for analysis from the monomaniacs. What's to 'analyse'? The election results speak for themselves, be they for Thaksin's second (incomplete) term, or Yingluck's landslide election. PT's policy of pursuing general amnesty also- but this of course is twisted by the monomaniacs to just meaning a Thaksin amnesty, which it manifestly is not. More recently, these Abac polls show that the 'issue' of the return of Thaksin is not an issue to most Thai people- and just because you can obsessively read about this in the irrelevant Thai English language media does not change that fact one iota. As I've repeatedly pointed out, many people in Thailand would have a lot more to be worried about than T if the Yingluck government had decided to pursue matters via legal process. How many times have you read that obvious fact in the BPaste? I guess they too must have substandard comprehension and analysis skills :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): .

----------


## noelbino

He can come  home any time he wants and serve his sentence.

Oh, I forgot. he's Hi-So so he can ask: Do you know who my daddy is?

----------


## sabang

Brave words, but as you well know he will come home and not serve any sentence.

----------


## hazz

> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> The majority, 83.6 per cent, said the Yingluck government should be given a chance to continue to work and 16.4 per cent said otherwise.
> ...


As you would have realised the failed logic behind what you were saying, which numerious people then pointed out to you.

As I said not really 'taksin monomania' as much as a lack of tolerance for people posting bollocks. and this monomania accusation you throw at the rest of us is somewhat undermined by you dropping the name more often than the rest of us put together. If you are looking for monomania, you need no look further than your own bathroom mirror.

----------


## Zooheekock

On its anniversary, a press release from Amnesty today on Tak Bai:

"Thailand: Death of 85 protesters must not go unpunished

Members  of the Thai security forces who are responsible for the deaths of 85  protesters eight years ago today at Tak Bai in southern Thailand must be  brought to justice, Amnesty International said. 

It was on 25  October 2004 that security forces opened fire on protesters  demonstrating outside Tak Bai police station in the southern province of  Narathiwat. 

Seven were shot dead, and a further 78 were crushed  or suffocated to death in army vans transporting them to a military  detention camp. 

It is shameful that no one has been brought to  justice for these deaths, and that there is virtual impunity for other  serious human rights violations in the ongoing internal armed conflict  in the south, said Isabelle Arradon, Director of Amnesty  Internationals South East Asia Program. 

Unfortunately, this  case highlights the serious problem of state impunity that currently  prevails in the south and throughout the country. 

A repressive  Emergency Decree - which is in force in Thailands three southernmost  provinces since July 2005 and effectively hands security forces immunity  from prosecution - must be immediately repealed or else amended to  ensure compliance with Thailands human rights obligations. 

During  2012, the authorities took the welcome step of providing financial  compensation to families of the victims of the Tak Bai protest and to  others affected by violations in the south, but this is not enough.

Simply  handing money to victims of human rights violations does not free  authorities from their obligation to bring those responsible to justice,  and provide full reparations to those affected. Nor does it help to  ensure that these types of violations will not happen in the future,  said Arradon.

In June 2012, Thailands Court of Appeal denied  families of Tak Bai victims another chance at justice, after it blocked  an attempt to appeal findings of a 2009 inquest. The inquest had found  security officials had just performed their duty in October 2004.

Since  2004, some 5,000 people have died in the armed conflict between the  state and Muslim insurgents in Thailands three southernmost provinces.  Both sides have been responsible for violations of international law   suspected insurgents have targeted civilians in killings, and carried  out indiscriminate attacks in which civilians have lost their lives.

The  ongoing violence in southern Thailand is appalling. Attacks aimed at  spreading terror among the civilian population have sadly become a  feature of daily life. These violations of international humanitarian  law present a significant challenge to Thailands security apparatus.  However, guaranteeing public security must be carried out while  respecting human rights, and must not stand in the way of providing  justice for human rights abuses committed by both state and insurgent  groups, said Arradon."

Amnesty International | Thailand: Death of 85 protesters must not go unpunished

----------


## gaysexbyproxy

> Death of 85 protesters must not go unpunished


...Oh, but it has and will continue to be. ::chitown::

----------


## Tom Sawyer

But no AI news release calling for release of LM prisoners, nor prosecution of the army for killing unarmed red protectors, nor all the other establishment outrageous against the defenseless in Thailand by its elite kangaroo establishment court system. At the end of the day, isn't Amnesty supposed to be supporting the release of prisoners of consciounce like imprisoned reds an LM defendants? Has Amnesty called for justice for Koreans killed by US soldiers or vitnamese rapes and murders by US army personell? WTF? I have no problem with justice for Tak Bai . It's needed. But AI continues to look so much like a tool of the State Dept and it's "friend" states in need of support to distract

----------


## Zooheekock

But the murders at Tak Bai were 'establishment outrageous against the defenseless in Thailand'. You're right though that Amnesty have been dangerously partial in their criticisms, though perhaps not quite as partial as you think; in their 2012 report they say "Most of those detained, charged, and/or sentenced under the (LM) laws were                   prisoners of conscience" and they were pretty clear when Chiranuch was charged, though noticeably less so when the same fate befell others.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

What about the rohingya, et al? It just seems to me that (as you say) Amnesty are selectively biased (my words now) when choosing what outrage to tackle. When reminding us about a thaksin outrage they're right in there. When it's a dem-sakdina-army triangle against the masses they back off. So it's easy to hit Thaksin - he's almost a soft-target for AI (though I do say that through clenched teeth to be sure)

----------


## StrontiumDog

> But no AI news release calling for release of LM prisoners, nor prosecution of the army for killing unarmed red protectors, nor all the other establishment outrageous against the defenseless in Thailand by its elite kangaroo establishment court system. At the end of the day, isn't Amnesty supposed to be supporting the release of prisoners of consciounce like imprisoned reds an LM defendants? Has Amnesty called for justice for Koreans killed by US soldiers or vitnamese rapes and murders by US army personell? WTF? I have no problem with justice for Tak Bai . It's needed. But AI continues to look so much like a tool of the State Dept and it's "friend" states in need of support to distract


Perhaps you should look at their Thailand site

Thailand News

(with such recent pieces as Free Somyot Now )

And then you might want to reconsider your ill-thought out and inaccurate comment.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

It's the only one to my knowledge AI has uttered in Thailand. Some two years after the fact of the slaughter and maiming of reds in 2010. they continue to remain silent on all other LM and calls for justice for other thai prisoners and victims. There's little ill-informed in that.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*thailand,political prisoners,amnesty,red shirts | Bangkok Post: breakingnews
*
*Reds revive call for amnesty*
Published: 12/01/2013 at 01:37 PMOnline news:
     Red-shirt leaders are floating two proposals to  help secure amnesty for political prisoners, saying hopeful signs have  emerged following recent statements by Privy Council chairman Gen Prem  Tinsulanonda.

     Surachai "Sae Dan" Danwattannanusorn, 70, a <redacted> prisoner,  said the Yingluck Shinawatra government should act swiftly now, as Gen  Prem has said that people who think differently should be able to live  and work together toward nation building.

 "Many people may think our country has been divided," Gen Prem said  in an address to military commanders late last month. "In fact there is  no division, just differences of opinion."

 
Surachai: Clearing Lak Si prison is a priority.

 "Overall, the positions of the Pheu Thai government and the  red-shirts seem better, but discouraging signs are still there as one  more person died in the temporary prison at Lak Si just days before the  New Year," said Surachai. "Therefore, the government must quickly clear  the Lak Si prison."

 Wanchai Raksa-nguansilp, a 30-year-old red-shirt detainee sentenced  to 22 years for burning the Udon Thani municipal office in May 2010,  died on Dec 27 after collapsing at the Lak Si prison.

 Surachai, a former communist rebel from Nakhon Si Thammarat province,  was sentenced to a total of 12.5 years for <redected> but has had his  sentence reduced by a total of 21 months <recated>.

 He had been looking forward to receiving a royal pardon from five <recated> cases he had chosen not to fight any further. But his hope  might be dashed as he faces a new charge laid in November for defying  orders to disband a protest in April 2009 when Thailand hosted the Asean  summit in Pattaya. Surachai said the charge was ridiculous since the  protest took place the night before a crowd stormed the summit venue.

 Surachai proposed that the government could request the Appeal Court  (the Lak Si prisoners are in the appeal process) to accelerate its  rulings, so that the Justice Ministry could proceed to issue a royal  decree for amnesty of these prisoners under Penal Procedural Code  Articles 259 and 261(2).

 "This step could be a precedent for all political detainees,  prisoners including the yellow-shirt members, Abhisit Vejjajiva and  Suthep Thaugsuban," he said, referring to the former Democrat premier  and deputy premier who face murder charges related to the crackdown on  red short protesters in May 2010.

 "And this is an act within the remit of the law," said Surachai from  Bangkok Remand Prison on Friday, where 50 red shirts showed up in  solidarity with red-shirt prisoners there.

 Issuing a royal decree to free prisoners has been done before, he said.

 "In the wake of the fatal Talumpuk storm in Nakhon Si Thammarat in  October 1962, the Sarit Thanarat government singled out prisoners at Pak  Phanang Prison as they did not escape when the prison was inundated and  damaged," he said.

 He noted that the government should pursue the proposal with the same  energy it is using to secure the release of two Thais, Veera Somkwamkid  and Ratree Pipatana-paiboon, from jail in Cambodia.

 "Other governments have jailed us, our governments still detain us. When will we get freedom?" he asked.

 Suda Rungkuphan, a member of the Declaration of Street Justice, said  her group supported the Nitirat Group's proposal to make political  amnesty a new chapter in the new constitution.

 By early February, Dr Suda said, the group hopes to have as many as  10,000 people turn out to appeal to the government to seriously consider  the proposals of the Thammasat University law professors who make up  Nitirat.

 "Those charged under the Emergency Decree should be given a clean  slate, while those fighting court cases should at least get a basic  right of temporary release to defend themselves better in the trials,"  said Dr Suda, whose group helps political prisoners.

 Beneficiaries of the Nitirat amnesty proposals, if accepted, would  include protesters who physically engaged in demonstrations and those  expressing views in magazines or on the internet, including <redacted>  cases, from the time of the Sept 19 2006 coup up to the 2011 general  election.

 However, Somchai Homlaor, a former member of the now-defunct Truth  and Reconciliation Commission and now a member of the Law Reform  Commission (LRC), said that introducing national reconciliation laws or  amending the constitution for the purpose could only be sustainably  achieved once more conducive political sentiment prevailed. And now is  not yet that time, he said.

 "That is why the LRC suggested to Parliament to postpone  consideration of four reconciliation bills in June last year because at  the time then, and even now, the atmosphere is not yet ripe for the  move," said Mr Somchai.


-----
UDD: Mass reds gathering Jan 15 | Bangkok Post: breakingnews

*UDD: Mass reds gathering Jan 15*
Published: 11/01/2013 at 04:39 PMOnline news:The United Front for Democracy against  Dictatorship (UDD) will hold a mass gathering of the red-shirts in front  of Laksi temporary prison on Jan 15, UDD co-leader Jatuporn Prompan  said on Friday.

     Mr Jatuporn said the rally will call on the government to issue an  amnesty decree for political prisoners of all colours, including members  of the Anti-Thaksin Pitak Siam group.

 The UDD co-leader insisted that the amnesty should not cover UDD  co-leaders facing charges of terrorism and former premier and Democrat  Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva and ex-deputy prime minister Suthep  Thuagsuban facing charges of attempted murder relating to the 2010  protests.

 He said the gathering will be from 10am until 3pm.

----------


## noelbino

> The UDD co-leader insisted that the amnesty should not cover UDD co-leaders facing charges of terrorism and former premier and Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva and ex-deputy prime minister Suthep Thuagsuban facing charges of attempted murder relating to the 2010 protests.


So where is he coming from with this??

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> Surachai "Sae Dan" Danwattannanusorn, 70, *a <redacted> prisoner,*  said the Yingluck Shinawatra government should act swiftly now, as Gen  Prem has said that people who think differently should be able to live  and work together toward nation building.


Now then, why or why, would you "redact" that adjective, given the fcking Bangkok Post found it most appropriate to publish? Cap in hand again SD? Or something else in hand?

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ Rules of the news forum Tom. Jesus, don't you know that by now? How long have you been a member here?

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Nitirat group proposes amnesty for political offenders | Bangkok Post: news
*
*Nitirat group proposes amnesty for political offenders*
Published: 14 Jan 2013 at 00.00Newspaper section: News
     The Nitirat group has proposed including an amnesty for political offenders in the government's constitutional amendments.

     The amnesty would reach back to the 2006 coup and would involve all offences by protesters which had taken place since then.

 The group of Thammasat University law lecturers presented the idea  yesterday at the university. It is one of several reconciliation  proposals the group is promoting. The group ultimately backs a broader  goal of writing a whole new charter to repeal the consequences of the  2006 coup.

 The move came after the Pheu Thai-led government hesitated to push  for an amnesty process for rank-and-file red shirts accused of violence  during the political unrest in April-May 2010.

 Worachet Pakeerut, Thammasat University law associate professor and a  key member of Nitirat, said the Sept 19, 2006 coup was the source of  all political conflicts which have led to various protests and political  crimes.

 The charter rewrite process remains stalled in parliament.

 Nitirat wants to seek amendments to the charter by inserting a chapter on an amnesty and conflict resolution.

 The chapter would provide a blanket amnesty to exonerate all  political offenders including both core protest leaders and  rank-and-file protesters since the coup. The offences, however, would  have to be minor infractions including those which carry penalties of no  more than one month in jail under the Criminal Code, offences which  carry penalties of fines only, or penalties of two years in jail or less  under other laws.

 The amnesty must not contradict international treaties and will not  cover state authorities responsible for dispersing the protesters, Mr  Worachet said.

 Under the proposed amnesty chapter, a five-member conflict resolution committee would have the final say on the amnesty process.

 The committee would decide if the political offenders committed offences that carry penalties of more than two years in jail.

 During the committee's investigation, the accused would be spared any prosecution.

 If a trial has commenced, the court would have to suspend the trial and release the defendant.

 In the event the accused has been found guilty and convicted by the  court, the conflict resolution committee could order the release of the  convict until the committee issues its verdict on the case.

 If the committee rules the convict's actions were not politically  motivated, he would be prosecuted under normal legal proceedings, Mr  Worachet said.

 The committee members would comprise one nominated by the cabinet,  two nominated by the House of Representatives _ one MP from the ruling  party and another MP from the opposition _ one judge or retired judge  selected by parliament, and one prosecutor or retired prosecutor also  selected by parliament.

 Mr Worachet said the group will not propose the amnesty as a bill but  as a chapter in the constitution. He said a bill would contradict the  charter and end up being delayed in parliament.

 He insisted the proposal is not intended to help deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra escape any penalty for his crimes.

----------


## importford

here we go again

----------


## Mid

> here we go again


again , nay ...still .

----------


## mareinelie

The committee would decide if the political offenders committed offences that carry penalties of more than two years in jail.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Courts rap Nitirat amnesty panel plan | Bangkok Post: news
*
*Courts rap Nitirat amnesty panel plan*

*Justice system alone must deliver judgement*
Published: 15 Jan 2013 at 00.00Newspaper section: News
       The Nitirat group's proposal to establish a  conflict resolution committee to screen political offenders who could be  eligible for an amnesty does not conform to international judicial  principles, a court spokesman says.

     Court of Justice spokesman Sitthisak Wanachakij yesterday said  disputes are commonly settled by courts of justice worldwide and  establishing a group to exert power instead of a court does not comply  with international practice.

 Judicial power must only be exerted by the courts, he added.

 He was responding to a proposal made on Sunday by the Nitirat group, which comprises Thammasat University law lecturers.

 The group proposed the 2007 charter should be amended by inserting a chapter on amnesties and conflict resolution.

 The chapter would provide an amnesty, which would cover both core  protest leaders and rank-and-file protesters, for minor political  offences committed after the 2006 coup up until the May 19, 2010, red  shirt demonstration, said Thammasat University law associate professor  Worachet Pakeerut, one of the group's members.

 A five-member conflict resolution committee would have the final say  on the amnesty process. The committee would comprise one cabinet  nominee, two MPs from the House of Representatives _ one each from the  ruling party and the opposition _ one judge or retired judge selected by  parliament and a prosecutor or retired prosecutor also selected by  parliament.

 Nitirat says the committee would consider offences carrying a jail term of more than two years.

 During committee probes, an accused would be spared any prosecution. Previous convictions could be reviewed.

 If the committee rules an offenders' actions were not politically  motivated, they would be prosecuted using normal legal proceedings.

 However Mr Sitthisak, the court spokesman, said any resolution by a  committee which was not part of the court system could ultimately be  challenged.

 He said Nittirat's proposal must be deliberated by various groups on  whether it is practical or suitable, adding the idea should not be  abruptly judged.

 He also supports a public forum on the issue to reach common ground.

 Democrat Party spokesman Chavanond Intarakomalyasut dismissed  Nittirat's suggestions, saying the proposed committee could have more  power than the normal judicial system.

 The panel could whitewash those who committed murder and arson on the grounds of political motivation.

 The proposal will be aimed at clearing cases for a large number of offenders, he said.

 Mr Chavanond said the idea is being floated because the  reconciliation bill has hit a snag in parliament. The group proposed  this committee because it wanted more people exonerated, he said.

 Nitirat is thought by some to be a red shirt-aligned group.

 The Democrat Party is ready to support an amnesty for people who only  breached the emergency decree, not those who committed criminal acts,  Mr Chavanond said. Exonerating emergency decree violators will benefit  the rank-and-file protesters, not the protest leaders, Mr Chavanond  said.


-----
Justice rejects amnesty commission idea - The Nation

*Justice rejects amnesty commission idea*

           The Nation January 15, 2013  1:00 am 
*
Justice Ministry spokesman Sittisak Vanachakij  said a proposal by academics to set up a commission to grant amnesty and  solve the lingering political conflict stemming from the 2006-2010  military coup, was done with good intent.*

            However, he said, the Nitirat Group of Thammasat law lecturers lacked  the international norm that would allow such a commission to act in  place of the courts of law.

Sittisak said such a commission as proposed by  Nitirat, (also known as 'enlightened jurists'), was not needed as the  various courts of law are qualified to dispense justice to all. Also,  there has been no such precedent elsewhere where a commission has the  necessary judicial authority.

"The Parliament is the best channel in passing an  [amnesty] bill. It's up to the Parliament to decide," said Sittisak,  adding that what Nitirat proposed was an academic opinion that society  must look into and decide whether was appropriate or not. Sittisak added  that another big hurdle was whether politicians would accept such an  idea.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Compensation is too slow, say red-shirts acquitted of charges over the 2010 riots in Bangkok | Bangkok Post: news
*
*Red prisoners: Compensation too slow*
Published: 15 Jan 2013 at 15.36Online news: Local NewsBANGKOK - Payment of compensation to red-shirts  charged, detained and later acquitted of charges laid during the 2010  riots is slow in coming, and there is mounting dissatisfaction with the  process.

     A protest is planned later this month to demand the government give amnesty to all political prisoners.

 Arthit Baosuwan, one of the nine defendants in Central World theft  case, told Bangkok Post on Tuesday that only a few dozen detainees were  categorised as eligible for the next round of remedial payouts agreed to  by the Pheu Thai government a month ago.

 The acquitted red-shirts included six other adults and two youths in  one case; five defendants (one deaf, one blind) in the Wat Saphan-Din  Daeng case; 11 from Udon Thani province; and 13 from Ubon Ratchathani.  There were others.

 "There are as many as 1,800 people were arrested and charged on  various counts and petty charges following the political mayhem. A  majority of them were jailed under the provisions of the emergency law.  These people should also be entitled under the cabinet resolution (to  compensate acquitted prisoners)," said Mr Arthit.

 He and other people, including the mother of Kamolgade Akkahad, a  volunteer medic killed on April 19, 2010 at Wat Pathumwanaram, met Prime  Minister Yingluck Shinawatra at her official residence, Ban Pitsanulok,  on Nov 7 last year, more than a month before the cabinet decided to pay  to those "legally affected" by the political conflict, he said.

 
Jiam Thongmak (Photo by Achara Ashayagachat)

 Mr Arthit said he felt that any remedial measures for the injustice  should not only provide financial help but also  help restore people's  dignity  through an amnesty to be enacted in parliament.

 "We are talking to brothers and sisters. The payouts need to be given  fairly to all, including those whose human dignity was denigrated by   short-term imprisonment," said Mr Arthit, who had a good office job in  Bangkok prior to being detained on a charge of stealing from the leading  shopping mall, a charge later dismissed

 He was speaking at the self-proclaimed Street Justice Council, which  hopes to mobilise as many as 10,000 supporters to press on their own  government on Jan 29 to seriously consider releasing all political  prisoners from their various jails.

 Jiam Thongmak, 48, from Buri Ram, said the Pheu Thai-led government  had made a nice gesture but there was still no concrete action.

 Ms Jiam was arrested on the same day on the same charge as Mr Arthit,  though they did not know each other before. The court acquitted them of  the theft charges on Dec 1, 2011. No appeal was filed by prosecutors,  so she and eight other co-defendants were entitled to the latest round  of payouts. The two youths tried on separate charges of arson at  CentraWorld were acquitted in December.

 "The Justice Ministry's Department of Rights and Liberties Protection  has said since our acquittal that they will consider compensation for  us — for the one year, six months and 12 days that we were jailed for  doing nothing wrong. But so far, no one has been paid," said Ms Jiam.

 The promised compensation, she said, would not only strengthen the  move to reconciliation among the affected people, but also help restore  their previous life.

 "Many already had debts before being imprisoned, and being in jails  meant we were not able to make repayments. Now our rights and liberties  have been crippled and our post-acquittal future is not bright. How can  we shake off this uninvited stigma hanging over a mere protester," said  the only woman charged in the Central theft case.

 
Narumon Warunroongroj (Photo by Achara Ashayagachat)

 Narumon Warunroongroj, 53, who was acquitted on charges of illegal  possession of weapons and ammunition in August 2011, said the payouts  came very late.

 "Some of those acquitted and those convicted were traumatised and their lives shattered," she said.

 Roi Et taxi driver Yutin Singthimas, a former detainee who eventually  committed suicide by plunging into the Chao Phraya River early this  month, was a clear example, Ms Narumon said.

 Somjit Laimanee, 58, a hawker at Ratchaprasong intersection, said  several hundred street vendors who were affected from the months-long  political rally have also yet to be compensated.

 "Only 767 stall owners, mostly from Siam Centre area, each got 50,000  baht compensation during the Abhisit Vejjajiva government. Not us,"  said Mr Somjit.

 "The previous government provided us with some cheap loans from the  SME bank, and the funding has  already run out," said Ms Somjit from  Minburi.

 She said the government should make it clear when the affected vendors would be compensated.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Red shirts rally at prison - The Nation
*
*Red shirts rally at prison*

           The Nation January 16, 2013  1:00 am 
*
Around 300 members of the red-shirt United Front  for Democracy against Dictatorship held a rally yesterday at the Lak Si  Special Detention Centre, and donated four sets of exercise equipment  to the inmates.*

            UDD leader Thida Thawornset led the group of 300 to make the donation  of treadmills, stationary cycles and other exercise equipment.

     They also read a statement on their proposal to draft an amnesty decree  comprising four articles to release those who have been convicted and  those who are accused of crimes in connection with the political  conflicts and rallies that took place from January 1, 1997 to December  31, 2001.

     The draft has stated that those who have been convicted and sentenced  by the highest court or under trial are regarded as innocent and bear no  responsibility, excluding authorities who made the decisions or issued  orders related to political activities during the period.

     Vendors selling red-shirt CDs, clothing and souvenirs set up shop  around the prison, and loudspeakers broadcast rally activities. Free  food was provided those joining the rally and visiting the prisoners.

----------


## Gerbil

> The United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) will hold a *mass gathering* of the red-shirts in front of Laksi temporary prison on Jan 15, UDD co-leader Jatuporn Prompan said on Friday.





> *Around 300* members of the red-shirt United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship held a rally yesterday at the Lak Si Special Detention Centre


*smirk*

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Red shirts plan protest for amnesty, compensation | Bangkok Post: news
*
*Red shirts plan protest for amnesty, compensation*
Published: 19 Jan 2013 at 00.00Newspaper section: News
       Red shirts are threatening to rally later this  month to demand the government grant amnesty to all political prisoners  and to compensate all those acquitted.

     Compensation for red shirts charged, detained and later acquitted of  charges laid during the 2010 violence has been slow in coming,  increasing dissatisfaction among those affected.

 Arthit Baosuwan, one of nine acquitted defendants in the CentralWorld  mall looting case, told the Bangkok Post that only a few dozen  detainees were eligible for the next round of payouts approved by the  government a month ago.

 These include five acquitted red shirts from the Wat Saphan case in  the Din Daeng area, 11 from Udon Thani province and 13 from Ubon  Ratchathani.

 "As many as 1,800 people were unjustly arrested on petty charges," Mr  Arthit said. "The majority of them were jailed under the provisions of  the emergency decree. These people should also be entitled to  compensation under the cabinet resolution."

 He and other people, including the mother of Kamolkade Akkahad, a  volunteer medic killed on April 19, 2010, at Wat Pathum Wanaram, met  with Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra on Nov 7, more than a month  before the cabinet decided to pay those "legally affected" by the  political conflict, Mr Arthit said.

 "We are talking to brothers and sisters. The payouts need to be  distributed fairly to all, including those whose dignity was denigrated  by short-term imprisonment," Mr Arthit said.

 He said he was joining the "Friends of Thai Political Prisoners", or  the Street Justice movement, to mobilise up to 10,000 supporters on Jan  29 to press the government to release all political prisoners.

 Jiam Thongmak, 48, from Buri Ram, said the Pheu Thai-led government's  gesture was appreciated, but she had yet to see any concrete action.

 Ms Jiam was arrested on the same day and on the same theft charge as  Mr Arthit, though they did not know each other at the time. The court  acquitted them both on Dec 1, 2011.

 "After our acquittal the Justice Ministry's Department of Rights and  Liberties Protection said they would consider compensating us for the  one year, six months and 12 days we spent in jail for doing nothing  wrong. But so far, no one has been paid," Ms Jiam said.

 Compensation, she said, would not only strengthen moves towards  reconciliation, but help affected people put their lives back on track.

 "Many already had debts before being imprisoned, and being in jail  meant we were not able to make repayments," said Ms Jiam, the only woman  charged in the CentralWorld looting case. "Our rights and liberties  have been trampled upon and our futures are not bright."

 Narumon Warunroongroj, 53, who was acquitted in August 2011 of  illegally possessing weapons and ammunition, said she had received  compensation but the payout was very late in coming.

 "Some of those acquitted and those who were convicted were traumatised and their lives shattered," she said.

 Taxi driver Yutin Singthimas, a former detainee from Roi Et who  committed suicide by jumping into the Chao Phraya River early this  month, was a clear example, Ms Narumon said.

 Somjit Laimanee, 58, a vendor at Ratchaprasong intersection, said  several hundred street vendors whose livelihoods were affected by the  political turmoil have also yet to be compensated.

 "Some 767 stall owners, mostly from the Siam Center area, each  received 50,000 baht in compensation from the Abhisit Vejjajiva  government - but not us," he said.

----------


## StrontiumDog

Red shirts' amnesty plan is short on details - The Nation

burning issue

*Red shirts' amnesty plan is short on details*

           Avudh Panananda
The Nation January 18, 2013  1:00 am 

*The debate over amnesty in connection with the  2010 political mayhem will not make headway unless the red shirts get  down to the specifics of what such legal absolution would entail.*

            Red-shirt leader Thida Thavornseth has designated 2013 as the year to  push for amnesty for all protesters involved in political rallies from  January 2007 to December 2011.

     To kick-start her crusade on Tuesday, Thida unveiled a draft decree to  absolve protesters of all political stripes of legal accountability,  except for rally organisers and masterminds behind the political  violence.

     Preceding Thida's move, the Nitirat Group of anti-coup academics  demanded that amnesty for all involved in the political violence be  enshrined in charter provisions.

     The parties concerned have given lukewarm responses to the two amnesty proposals. 

     Their reactions varied from questioning the legal technicalities  associated with granting amnesty to alleging an ulterior motive to  rescue fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

     Wattana Sengpairoh, spokesman for the House speaker, said he was  doubtful whether amnesty, if granted as per the two proposals, would  conform to the rule of law. Wattana made it clear he did not oppose the  idea of granting amnesty; he just wanted it done properly.

     His remarks happen to mirror the views of many, including critics and supporters of the red shirts.

     If the red shirts are serious in trying to bring about amnesty, they  should outline the details of how they would implement the amnesty idea  in a practical manner. 

     At present they are using fancy words, but stop short of spelling out practical steps to translate the idea into reality.

     Thida has a lot of explaining to do if she wants to dispel lingering  doubts on why red leaders are enjoying the perks while their foot  soldiers are trying to survive various stages of prosecution.

     For now, these foot soldiers may be pacified by the idea of amnesty.  But their wrath would be catastrophic if they found they had been left  with an empty promise.

     The amnesty proposal advanced by Nitirat is very theoretical and might  not warrant attention at this juncture, since it hinges on a rewrite of  the Constitution, which has not been activated yet.

     In contrast, Thida has been pushing for a draft decree on amnesty via the government.

     If the draft had all the necessary specifics, then the government could  act on it without delay. It is unfortunate, however, that the draft  provisions have triggered confusion.

     The confusion appears so deep that all government leaders have opted for silence as a virtue.

     If the amnesty debate is to gain momentum, Thida, or her colleagues, should clarify the following issues:

     First, the distinction between protesters, organisers and masterminds for each violent incident.

     Second, the criteria for classifying criminal violations linked to the political protests.

     Third, whether the amnesty should apply to a number of cases not linked  to the protests, but which Thida sees as politically motivated. If it  should, criteria would be needed to classify such cases.

     Fourth, how to prevent the government's usurping of judicial power if amnesty is granted to defendants fighting trials.

     Fifth - given that amnesty for convicted protesters who burned down  provincial halls would not cover organisers - whether red leaders would  be willing to face prosecution as masterminds in such cases.

     Sixth - given that the government is targeting two Democrats, Abhisit  Vejjajiva and Suthep Thuagsuban, for prosecution over the deaths and  injuries inflicted by soldiers - whether red-shirt leaders should be  held accountable for deaths and injuries inflicted by armed protesters.

----------


## StrontiumDog

Amnesty pieces from the Red Shirt website

* A Call for Amnesty* 

                                                                                                                                       Posted by Ratch  /   January 17, 2013                                  

Below is the English translation of the UDD’s statement that was released together with the draft amnesty decree.

 
January 15 2013 UDD Statement: A Call for Amnesty

 The coup d’état of September 19th 2006  executed by the Council of Democratic Reform under the Constitutional  Monarchy (CDRM), later renamed the Council of National Security (CNS),  has provoked political turmoil and has caused a great divide in  Thailand. This split is manifested most clearly in the form of political  movements which disagree on the legitimacy of the actions of the  coup-makers.

One faction advocated for the overthrow  of a democratically-elected government and continues to defend the  military coup. They do so on the grounds that the deposed government was  led by “crony capitalists” and won elections by deception,  vote-bribery, and the ignorance of the electorate. People adhering to  this faction demanded that the military overthrow the government despite  the fact that it had been elected by a majority of voters.

Another group has emerged in opposition  to the 2006 coup d’état. The group grew into a political movement that  defied those who prepared, executed, and supported the coup. The  movement identified the coup d’état and the post-coup intrusions on  Thailand’s democracy as the acts of an aristocratic network. For more  than 5 years it has fought against the repercussions of the coup d’état  which included the tearing up of the 1997 Constitution and the  appointment of a puppet government. The aristocratic network also formed  a committee to write a new constitution in order to control state  apparatuses to suit its beliefs and interests.

Consequently,  there have been large political rallies that have led to violence,  arrests, criminal charges, injuries, and, in the most tragic cases, the  loss of life. The repercussions of this political unrest have been felt  by the entirety of Thai society that has witnessed the violent  suppression of protesters, street massacres, and the imprisonment of  fellow citizens on both sides of the conflict.

Although the United Front for Democracy  against Dictatorship (UDD) does not agree with the political actions  taken by some people in the pro-coup faction, they are fellow Thai  citizens and should be granted amnesty for convicted or ongoing criminal  cases. Ultimately, the responsibility should lie in the hands of  movement leaders.

Until now, we have witnessed a  political struggle that has caused pain, suffering, death, imprisonment,  and convictions. Since the current democratically elected government  has proven that it can run smoothly for more than a year, we have  proposed to the Pheu Thai administration a draft amnesty decree which we  believe would end the suffering that has afflicted both sides of the  conflict.

Furthermore, an amnesty decree would  bring political, economic, and social stability to Thailand’s fragile  political climate. People in each group feel that they are not being  treated fairly due to political biases and post-coup policies that have  corrupted the investigative process and the rule of law. This has  provoked anger and sorrow in the hearts of prisoners and their families.  They have been locked up in jails while their rights to bail and to  defend their cases in fair judicial processes are denied repeatedly. We  fear for their mental and physical wellbeing.

Considering the concerns listed above,  the UDD feels that a continuation of the status quo will do irreparable  damage to the people of Thailand and to any future political, economic,  and social stability. The government has a historic opportunity to  alleviate part of the suffering which stands in the way of national  reconciliation. *The UDD urges the Government of Her Excellency  Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra to consider this draft amnesty decree  and to put it into effect as soon as possible*. This would represent a big step towards finding a sustainable solution for Thai society.

Sincerely, 
the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship

-----
* UDD Draft Amnesty Decree* 

                                                                                                                                       Posted by Ratch  /   January 17, 2013

The following is the draft of an Amnesty Decree. It was proposed by the UDD to the government, together with this statement. 
Draft Amnesty Decree (English Translation) 
Royal Decree on Amnesty  of Political Convicts and Political Defendants Stemming from the  Political Conflict between 1 January 2006 to 31 December 2012, A.D.Article 1: This Decree shall be cited  as “Royal Decree on Amnesty of Political Convicts and Political  Defendants Stemming from the Political Conflict between 1 January 2006  to 31 December 2012, A.D.”.Article 2: This Decree shall come into force the day following the date of its publication in the Royal Thai Government Gazette.Article 3: All persons who have been  charged of committing any crime stemming from the political conflict  between 1 January 2006 to 31 December 2012, be they convicted or  awaiting sentencing, shall be declared as innocent, and shall be freed  of any responsibility for the charges brought against them.The  provision of the preceding paragraph shall not include the leaders who  have authority or are in charge of political movements during that time.Article 4: The Prime Minister shall be in charge of this Decree.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

There needs to be a clearing of the air first. That means a real "truth" commission. The commission MUST have the right to demand appearances by the following people. If they don't show on the day they are to testify they go straight to jail - no BS - and no "bail" or home detention just because they are poo-yai or 'hi-so' - it means a cement floor. If they show up and answer questions, they are free to go after that.

1. Coup leader Sonthi
2. The rest of the leaders of the Armed Forces who went along with him
3. Prem and the entire PC

That's a start. But not the end of it. This is, IMO, the ONLY way to show every puffed up Thai and Thai-Chink in this country that they are but one of millions - and they are NOT above anyone else, much as they like to think they are.

----------


## Gerbil

> Somjit Laimanee, 58, a vendor at Ratchaprasong intersection, said several hundred street vendors whose livelihoods were affected by the political turmoil have also yet to be compensated.


Illegal traders demanding to be compensated for not be able to continue to conduct their illegal business? Tough shit.

----------


## noelbino

> There needs to be a clearing of the air first. That means a real "truth" commission. The commission MUST have the right to demand appearances by the following people. If they don't show on the day they are to testify they go straight to jail - no BS - and no "bail" or home detention just because they are poo-yai or 'hi-so' - it means a cement floor. If they show up and answer questions, they are free to go after that.
> 
> 1. Coup leader Sonthi
> 2. The rest of the leaders of the Armed Forces who went along with him
> 3. Prem and the entire PC
> 
> That's a start. But not the end of it. This is, IMO, the ONLY way to show every puffed up Thai and Thai-Chink in this country that they are but one of millions - and they are NOT above anyone else, much as they like to think they are.


No mention of any udd leaders or sub leaders??Your bias is showing!!!

----------


## hazz

> They also read a statement on their proposal to draft an amnesty decree comprising four articles to release those who have been convicted and those who are accused of crimes in connection with the political conflicts and rallies that took place from January 1, 1997 to December 31, 2001.


Thats quite interesting, it must be a rather select list of people who committed 'polical' crimes between these dates and still be in prison. murder, drugs, LM and fraud are the only things that come to mind. Anyone care to mention why the UDD are interested in this?

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer
> 
> 
> There needs to be a clearing of the air first. That means a real "truth" commission. The commission MUST have the right to demand appearances by the following people. If they don't show on the day they are to testify they go straight to jail - no BS - and no "bail" or home detention just because they are poo-yai or 'hi-so' - it means a cement floor. If they show up and answer questions, they are free to go after that.
> 
> 1. Coup leader Sonthi
> 2. The rest of the leaders of the Armed Forces who went along with him
> 3. Prem and the entire PC
> 
> ...


I'm talking about the coup. Of course there would need to be all the others from all sides in a wider commission

----------


## StrontiumDog

From the back seat of a red taxi | Bangkok Post: opinion

COMMENTARY

*From the back seat of a red taxi*
Published: 20 Jan 2013 at 00.00Newspaper section: News
     Last Tuesday evening, after being rejected by  the shaking head and waving hands of one cabbie, a second took me in and  I was ever appreciative. From Wat Phra Si Maha That temple in Bang Khen  to my home in Lumpini, it was to be a long ride, but an educational  one. There was silence at first, but after a few minutes the cabbie, an  elderly yet robust man, turned on the radio. We caught the last few  minutes of a talk show; the topic of discussion was the Bangkok governor  race.

     One caller lambasted the Democrat candidate as a corrupt member of  the elite who knows nothing and does nothing. Another caller lamented on  how her son, and others like him who live and work in Bangkok but are  not residents of the capital could not vote - otherwise the Pheu Thai  candidate would win for sure.

 There were a couple livelier and more passionate callers invoking the  need to vote Pheu Thai and win Bangkok for the sake of the people and  true democracy. The host, also passionate and lively, wrapped up the  show by saying Bangkok needs a good man as governor, a true man of  democracy, and that man is the Pheu Thai candidate.

 Another period of silence ensued, the cabbie shifted back and forth  in his seat, and kept looking at the rearview mirror, as if he were  measuring my political allegiance, determining whether he should engage  me in a political discussion. Finally he did.

 Friendly and paternally, throughout the conversation he referred to me as por-nhoom, or young man.

 The cabbie waxed poetic about how this once great nation, which our  ancestors sacrificed their blood and lives to forge, is being raped and  pillaged by "them".

 It's interesting to note that those on the other side of the  political divide also wax poetic on the very same thing, except that in  their context, "them" refers to a different set of people.

 I asked who "they" were and his laughing reply was "_por-nhoom_, you know, them".

 This exchange is telling of the atmosphere of fear that still  prevails in Thailand - that which we do not name or speak of, even in  the confines of a taxi. But fair enough, I was a stranger and mistrust  is only a by-product of a culture of fear.

 The cabbie went on to elaborate on how Thailand has more oil than  even Saudi Arabia and that we are so fortunate to be rich in natural  resources because our ancestors chose the right place to settle.

 Unfortunately, however, according to the cabbie, we end up having to  pay high prices for foreign oil because "they" have conspired to funnel  our own oil through secret refineries and sell it in on the world  market, keeping the profits for themselves alone.

 Turning into Lumpini, coming up to the railway track, the cabbie said  that the black trains are the ones that transport the oil. Sure enough,  a train came trudging through. The cabbie pointed and said,"that's one  of them, por-nhoom, a black train".

 I looked out the side window but couldn't make out the colour because  there were so many tents and vendors in front of me, plus it was  already dark.

 "Believe me, por-nhoom, I'm not making this stuff up," said the cabbie. "I learn it all from red radio."

 I don't know if we actually have more oil than Saudi Arabia, but I do  know that his conviction truly reflects the power of the media.

 I then asked the cabbie why the government isn't doing anything about  it. He sighed and replied that they can't - that nothing can be done.

 "Why not?" I asked. "You have sacrificed blood and lives to put them  into office in order to make sweeping reforms in the people's interests,  which includes giving the people 'justice' for the lives lost. You  should expect them to do it, all of it."

 This, you see, is the fine art of instigation by por-nhoom.

 The cabbie laughed and replied that everything is very difficult  because this is Thailand. There are things that can't be done, simply  because this is Thailand.

 This echoes what I mentioned earlier - the other side of the  political divide says the same thing. The proverbial "this is Thailand"  with a sigh and the shake of the head. No one expects much of this  country, let alone the Thai people ourselves. Such is a defeatist  attitude.

 I said that the government has four years and it has now been in  power less than two. Make demands and apply pressure, things might start  rolling. Power to the people and all that: You voted them in, you can  take them out, if they don't fulfil their promises. But if they do, then  you can vote for them again.

 But por-nhoom has a feeling they will cast the same vote no matter what, as the hatred for the other side is too ingrained.

 What I find most interesting here, however, is not the politics, but the sentiments of the people.

 Average citizens on both sides of the political divide lament over  the same thing - that this wonderful nation our ancestors fought and  died for, this jewel of natural resources with fish in the sea and rice  in the paddies, is being raped and pillaged selfishly to profit "them".  The two sides only differ on who "they" are.

 As well, in the end, regardless of the passion, commitment and  belief, push the conversation far enough, and both sides will sigh,  shake their heads and say, "This is Thailand."

 This leads to the conclusion that while we are so very proud of our  perceived glorious past, we hold so little hope for our future.

 The Pheu Thai government can prove that wrong. Don't laugh, but when  the Education Ministry announced more than a week ago that close-cropped  hair is no longer compulsory, ending more than 30 years of control by  humiliation, it was perhaps one the most progressive things any Thai  government has ever done. But then again, por-nhoom rather believes that  hope lies more with the character of individual citizens than with the  policy of any one government.


*Voranai Vanijaka*

----------


## Gerbil

> The cabbie went on to elaborate on how Thailand has more oil than even Saudi Arabia and that we are so fortunate to be rich in natural resources because our ancestors chose the right place to settle.
> 
> Unfortunately, however, according to the cabbie, we end up having to pay high prices for foreign oil because "they" have conspired to funnel our own oil through secret refineries and sell it in on the world market, keeping the profits for themselves alone.





> "Believe me, por-nhoom, I'm not making this stuff up," said the cabbie. "I learn it all from red radio."


Is there anything these idiots wont believe?  :Sad:

----------


## hazz

Humm worse than say the bollocks that hansuman, git, earl, boonme, ent, chrism have been believing this week? Then we have the flat earthers, the creationists, the aids, global warming, tobacco denialists, then the tin foil head brigade in general.

what you describing in a general affliction of the human condition

----------


## StrontiumDog

Govt's alliance with red shirts stuck on shaky ground - The Nation

burning issue

*Govt's alliance with red shirts stuck on shaky ground*

           Avudh Panananda
The Nation January 22, 2013  1:00 am 
*
Within the next few months, the government is  slated to finalise its decision on the Bt300 billion high-speed train  project linking Bangkok and Chiang Mai.*

            Later this year a number of mega-projects, particularly those related  to flood control, are likely to move toward being implemented.

     The signal is crystal clear - the government is confident it can manage  the political risks to ensure stability needed to stay in power and get  things done in the long-term.

     According to her aides, Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra has already started planning for a second term.

     Projects envisioned by former prime minister Thaksin might come to fruition under the leadership of his sister Yingluck.

     Following years of volatility, the ruling Pheu Thai Party is suddenly  enjoying political calm because the Shinawatra clan has put off its plan  to bring Thaksin home.

     Last month, Thaksin made it clear he was in no hurry to end his exile.  The clan, including Thaksin's ex-wife Khunying Pojaman na Pombejra and  his other sister Yaowapha Wongsawat, made an about-turn to delay his  home-coming for the sake of stability.

     The rush to push inflammatory issues such as a charter rewrite and an  amnesty, designed to pave the way for Thaksin to elude his legal  predicament, has been shelved.

     But while the ruling party has toned down matters that would provoke  the opposition, its alliance with the red shirts is curiously at a low  ebb.

     The red shirts have set this year as the time to push for an amnesty.  Their leader Thida Thawornseth last week unveiled a draft decree on  legal absolution for political violence between 2007 and 2011.

     Deputy Commerce Minister Natthawut Saikua insisted he had kept the prime minister fully informed about the draft.

     But Yingluck voiced puzzlement about such a draft. And Government House  officials and the red shirts have not, for the past few weeks, been  able to find a suitable date for Thida to present the draft to the prime  minister.

     The government has set sail to accomplish what it believes it is destined to do and left the red shirts in the lurch.

     It remains to be seen whether the red shirts will retaliate or be pliant and cave-in.

     Although the government has shifted its ground in order to boost  stability, political friction still persists, but not to a degree to  disrupt work.

     One of the contentious issues is the border dispute near Cambodia's Preah Vihear Temple.

     At this juncture, the government and security agencies are united in their approach to tackle the issue.

     The patriotic movement, seen as close to the People's Alliance for  Democracy, wants the government to explore other options than heeding  the verdict of the International Court of Justice. But the movement has  yet to sway sufficient support to make its voice heard.

     So long as the armed forces rally behind the government, the issue will  not spiral out of control even if the ICJ hands down an unfavourable  decision for Thailand.

     With Thaksin remaining in exile, Pheu Thai and the Democrats will have  their ups and downs as usual. But the main opposition party may not have  justification to oust the government.

     Yingluck is likely to experience calm in steering the government. 

     But the catch is she will be obliged to appease the red shirts and  ensure all her allies have equal access to the pie if she wants to  prevent an implosion of her government.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*It's your government, so make it listen | Bangkok Post: opinion
*
*It's your government, so make it listen*
Published: 24 Jan 2013 at 09.31Online news: Opinion
     Here we go again, section 112 of the Criminal  Code, the lese majeste law.  Another citizen, Somyot Prueksakasemsuk, editor of Voice of Taksin, was  found guilty on two counts on Wednesday and sent to prison for 11 years.

 Immediately, some red-shirts organised protests, even if small ones.  Immediately, human rights groups and the various non-Thai bodies,  committees and agencies clicked send on their press releases, condemning  the judgement. 

 Immediately, newspaper writers penned their thoughts on the subject,  tip-toeing ever so gently -- for no one would want to share a cell with  Somyot. Who, me? No way. 

 Indeed, we go through the same routine every time.   

 It’s like wondering if some day we will know why Samson loves Delilah  and whatever happened to Amelia Earhart. What’s the point of wondering  about these things? They are just lines from a song I can’t get out of  my head, since 1999. 

 This is the Criminal Court of the Kingdom of Thailand, a country  where the lese majeste law is honoured and abused, championed and  exploited. What other verdict could there be but guilty, guilty and  guilty?  

 So instead of venting at the court, why not actually change the law? I  swear I’m not the first person to have come up with this idea. Really,  I’m not. 

 There is this government legislative body whose job it is to make or  change laws. This legislative body is the parliament, in which the Pheu  Thai Party holds an absolute majority. The party that received the most  votes in the July 3, 2011 general election. 

 Those who caste the votes, instrumental to the campaign and key to  the Pheu Thai victory, were members and supporters of the red-shirt  United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD). 

 This is a civic group that champions justice, democracy and human  rights – at least that’s the claim. Through the years, the UDD flew the  banner against lese majeste. They cried against it. They marched against  it. 

 The UDD crusaded against old, corrupted power. They raised fists  against outdated, archaic laws that impede  justice, undermine democracy  and destroy human rights. They have sacrificed lives and limbs, for  sincerely and devoutly they believed the Pheu Thai Party would bring  justice, democracy and human rights to Thailand. 

 This is a civic movement that activists, journalists, anonymous  internet bloggers and anyone with a twitter from around the world hailed  as fighting for true justice, true democracy and true human rights.

 The movement that showed the world the power of the people on July 3,  2011 - that yes, we can!  We can make changes! We can make a  difference! We are the power of the people! Pheu Thai is the government  by the people and for the people!

 Today, the UDD – plus activists, journalists, random internet  bloggers and anyone with a twitter from around the world – are still  waiting with baited breath. 

 Hello? What has the prime minister to say about Somyot’s conviction? 

 Hi?  Excuse me, what is the Pheu Thai government’s stance on the lese majeste law? 

 Anyone? 

 No, no, don’t ask the Democrats, the military or the court. We know  whose side they are on. Don’t need to bother them. It would be like  asking a thirsty man if he wants water. We know the answer.

 
A group of people hold signs at the court house to support Somyot  Prueksakasemsuk on Jan 23, 2013. (Photo by Achara Ashayagachat)

 As a side note, let’s applaud those red-shirt members and others who  were at the court house to support Somyot. Those who held signs and made  their voices heard. 

 You may disagree with their politics, but you might want to respect  the consistency of their stance. They are not hypocrites when it comes  to standing up for what they believe is justice, democracy and human  rights. 

 But let’s ask the leadership of the UDD – those men and women, many  of whom now sit in parliament and enjoy ministerial portfolio.

 Excuse me, your excellencies; what do you plan to do with the lese majeste law and with the case of Somyot?  

 You see, there seems to be a clear and transparent way in which you  can change the law, no? A clear stance by the people who voted for you,  no? A clear majority in the parliament, no? So clear the way to change  the legislation, no? 

 Oh I see; it’s a sensitive issue and you’re going to set up  committees to look into it. All right then, understood, mai pen rai  (never mind), carry on.

 What’s that my pink Bentley-driving deputy prime minister? Oh, in  December 2011 you volunteered to lead a campaign against internet  content deemed offensive to the monarchy? What? You don’t even care what  colour shirt the websites belong to?  

 Ah, that clears things up then. See, this is what we like about you. You’re the most honest person in the government.

 
Chalerm Yubamrung comes out of his pink Bentley. (Photo by Apichart Jinakul)

Writer: Voranai Vanijaka

-----
Rule of law commission pushes for amnesty bill - The Nation

*Rule of law commission pushes for amnesty bill*

           Khanittha Thepphajorn
The Nation January 25, 2013  1:00 am *

The Independent National Rule of Law Commission  (NRLC) has called on MPs and Senators to table a bill in Parliament that  pardons those involved in political rallies between September 19, 2006  to May 10, 2011.*

            NRLC chairman Ukrit Mongkol-navin yesterday issued a statement saying  that the six-Article bill aims to bring peace and unity back to the  deeply divided Thai society. 

     According to the bill's Article 3 the following actions undertaken during political rallies will not be considered as offences:

     _ Public statement or advertisement against the Constitution; 

     _ Resisting arrest; 

     _ Protests that lead to negative consequences to others or the assets of others.

     The Article 3 also says that those who committed these offences will not be convicted or made responsible in any way.

     However, the amnesty does not appear to include those who launched the  rallies, were pulling the strings behind the scenes or those who  enforced law to maintain peace. 

     The bill's Article 4 stipulates that investigators and prosecutors drop  cases against those deemed innocent according to Article 3.

     Deputy Senate Speaker Surachai Liengboonlerschai, however, suggested  that the timeframe should start before September 19, 2006, because that  was when the coup was staged and many rallies had been held before the  coup.  

     Opposition whip Jurin Laksana-wisit, meanwhile, advised Prime Minister  Yingluck Shinawatra to be careful when deciding whether this amnesty law  should be legislated. 

     "I believe the country will be in a turmoil when this bill is passed into law," he warned.

----------


## piwanoi

A few weeks ago Thai politics came up in the conversation so I did a little straw poll among the ex pats who were attending a 70th birthday party of guy who had been grievously ill but thankfully had made a full recovery ,I simply asked what do you think will happen if Thaksin ever comes back here? of all the 11 guys who was there 9 said  it would be tantamount to a civil war ,one said he would be bumped off and the last he would have a hero's welcome and be back as the real PM within 3 years or so ,I threw my hat in the ring and agreed with the 9  :Smile:

----------


## Tom Sawyer

Voranai knows full well (and so do you SD), that despite the really strong electoral mandate the PTP hold, they cannot change the constitution, never mind try to abolish or amend the LM law. They'd be overthrown in a heartbeat by the military with the full backing of the 2-3,000 rich families who prospered through this triangular system. So little has changed since Sarit's dirty little reign. Yet where is the Thai media on the real history of this country? Why don't they tear off the cheap gilded plaster that covers up the filth of how this nation came to this point in time? Why doesn't Voranai and others tell people what a cnut Sarit was or Suchinda or critically review Prem's tenure? None of these guys are protected by LM laws - nor are the 2-3,000 families who revel and profit through the present repression. Why not report on them? After all, Thailand has a free press and freedom of speech (LM laws excepted).

----------


## sabang

> a little straw poll among the ex pats


How meaningful. A while ago, the nation of Thailand did a little straw poll among the citizens. PT won by a landslide.

^ I think the charter will be amended Tom (good), and some sort of reconciliation deal will be worked out that involves Thaksin- although it is the UDD demonstrators stewing in jail, several with manifestly ridiculous sentences and dubious convictions, that concern me far more than where Thaksin happens to reside.

By inference, when you insult the Democrat party you insult their stubborn supporters, of which many farangs living in Thailand seem to be even more vocal a crew as they are insignificant. Well, so be it. The current dem party are a bunch of petulant dummy spitters, panty waists but nice panties. Their babyish sense of entitlement is transparently laughable- those clowns do everything they can to overturn the democratic mandate, while presenting themselves as a democratic party. Somchaoi sees right through it. They have a lot of work to do, to compete in a democratic and electoral sense. A bit like the republicans in amerka, it seems to me they rely on a habitual voting base (largely in Bangkok), plus their factional southern fiefdoms, to maintain some semblance of relevance. Like the GOP, they are in trouble.

----------


## Butterfly

the point you are missing, sab, as usual, is that without a strong opposition, there is no real democracy. A landslide is not synonymous of democracy as your typical binary thinking conservative mind is implying. Should I remind you how Caesar was a popular dictator in a previously democratic Rome ? I won't mention Stalin, Mao and the other obvious candidates.

A weak opposition is a red flag for a working democracy,

----------


## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by piwanoi
> 
> a little straw poll among the ex pats
> 
> 
> How meaningful. A while ago, the nation of Thailand did a little straw poll among the citizens. PT won by a landslide.
> 
> ^ I think the charter will be amended Tom (good), and some sort of reconciliation deal will be worked out that involves Thaksin- although it is the UDD demonstrators stewing in jail, several with manifestly ridiculous sentences and dubious convictions, that concern me far more than where Thaksin happens to reside.
> 
> By inference, when you insult the Democrat party you insult their stubborn supporters, of which many farangs living in Thailand seem to be even more vocal a crew as they are insignificant. Well, so be it. The current dem party are a bunch of petulant dummy spitters, panty waists but nice panties. Their babyish sense of entitlement is transparently laughable- those clowns do everything they can to overturn the democratic mandate, while presenting themselves as a democratic party. Somchaoi sees right through it. They have a lot of work to do, to compete in a democratic and electoral sense. A bit like the republicans in amerka, it seems to me they rely on a habitual voting base (largely in Bangkok), plus their factional southern fiefdoms, to maintain some semblance of relevance. Like the GOP, they are in trouble.


 I was'nt aware I was insulting any one unless asking others what their opinions are is regarded as some how insulting ! , maybe it could be constrewed as such if their opinions clash with others, I get the idea that their voting decision was not in line with your opinion , and in closing we all know were the PTP's habitual voting base is don't we, but I would hardly call Issan a fiefdom just cos I do not agree with Thaksin or his brand of politics  :Smile:

----------


## sabang

> I was'nt aware I was insulting any one


You weren't pnoi. Just pointing out that a straw poll of expats, presumably in or around bangkok, is hardly representative of Thai public opinion and, because we don't get to vote here, irrelevant.



> without a strong opposition, there is no real democracy


I happen to agree. I wish the dems would start playing that role.

----------


## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by piwanoi
> 
> I was'nt aware I was insulting any one
> 
> 
> You weren't pnoi. Just pointing out that a straw poll of expats, presumably in or around bangkok, is hardly representative of Thai public opinion and, because we don't get to vote here, irrelevant.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 You presume wrong Sabang ,to a man all of us live in Buriram, slap in the centre of "Buffalo Country" and as far as I am aware all are either married or have an Issan Girl friend ,maybe that,s why they are anti Thaksin cos many have lived here for Donkeys years and have seen Thaksins "throw a sprat catch a 300 kilo bluefin tuna" politics ,and also quite a few personally saw and heard first hand from others as to what took place in Thaksin's war on drugs in 03  :Smile:  and of course they do not have a vote ,but that does not mean their opinions are irrelevant ,every Farang gives their opinion here on TD and they do not have a vote either do they? :Smile:

----------


## sabang

> live in Buriram, slap in the centre of "Buffalo Country"


the dreaded BJT.  :mid: 

 :Smile:

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Rally over 'political prisoners' - The Nation
*
*Rally over 'political prisoners'*

           Atapoom Ongkulna,
Pimnara Pradubwit
The Nation January 29, 2013  1:00 am 
*
A political group calling itself the "29 January  United Front for the Release of Political Prisoners" (UFRPP) will today  launch a campaign at the Royal Plaza to demand "political prisoners"  from every political group be released.*

            The group, previously named "The Declaration Outside the Court", is led  by Suda Rankupan, a lecturer at Chulalongkorn University.

     Members of the group, which claims to have 10,000 supporters, comprise  political activists from the September 2006 coup and those who joined  rallies in 2010.

     But leaders of red-shirt groups, Thida Thavornseth and Kwanchai  Praipana, said their organisations would not join in the rally. 

     Thida said the UFRPP supported the amnesty law drafted by the academic  Nitirat Group, which was different from her group's version. Kwanchai,  meanwhile, said a powerful person had asked him not to join the rally at  the moment as it might hurt the ruling Pheu Thai Party's popularity  during the run-up to the Bangkok governor's poll.

     The group will gather to first lay a wreath to pay respects to those  who sacrificed their lives for democracy in 1932 at the Royal Plaza  before moving to the Government House.

     They will carry out activities on Phitsanulok Road all day, starting  with the reading of a statement that calls for the release of all  political prisoners. Seminars will be held to discuss Thai political  history, the principles of human rights of political prisoners and  political economy and governance, to be conducted by noted academics  such as Somsak Jeamteerasakul, Suthachai Yimprasert and Pichit  Likhitkitsomboon.

     The group has actively campaigned in support of several political  prisoners such as the late Ampol Tangnopakul, a 62-year-old man known as  "Uncle SMS" who died while serving a jail term after he was convicted  of defaming the Royal Family in text messages.

     "The death of Ampol in prison demonstrates the cruelty of the country's justice system," Suda said.

     The group, which claims to be politically neutral, has also campaigned  continuously via the Internet to demand the release of political  prisoners of all colours and in every case, totalling 1,857 people from  3,000 families across the country.

     "Although these people committed offences, their motivation derived  from different political ideologies of state officials,'' Suda said.

     She cited the example of a prisoner convicted of theft and resisting  authority in 2010 - his motivation was a need to protect people from  being assaulted with weapons.

     She said the red-shirt cases had been prosecuted in a speedy manner  while those against the yellow shirts were few, adding that Sondhi  Limthongkul was released on bail even though he was charged with serious  cases.

     The group also moved in support of Panithan Prueksakasemsuk who went on  a 112-hour hunger strike to seek justice for his father, Somyos  Prueksakasemsuk, Voice of Taksin magazine editor and key red-shirt  member.

     After spending 21 months in detention - with 12 bail requests denied -  Somyos was last week sentenced to 10 years jail for publishing two  articles deemed offensive to HM the King and King Rama I.

     Suda said the group supported the Nitirat group's move to amend the  charter and issue an amnesty law and would submit their demands to the  government and wait three months to see how it responds in the next  parliamentary session.

     While she understands that her group is pushing the government to take a  political risk, she said it had the responsibility to help people who  support it.

     In a separate development, the government whip has agreed to ask the  Council of State to consider an amnesty law draft proposed by the  Independent National Rule of Law Commission (NRLC) led by former  Parliament president Ukrit Mongkolnavin, an adviser to Whip Udomdej  Rattanasathien said yesterday.

     The Council of State would be asked to see who would get an amnesty  according to the draft and how different it was from the amnesty law for  political incidents in 1973, he said.

----------


## StrontiumDog

Meanwhile....this.......not sure what it says about the red shirt leaders, but I'm pretty sure it isn't good.

*veena T.*             ‏@*veen_NT*  _

Red-shirt Kwanchai apologizes for  failing to keep his promise to take reds to rally in BKK tomrw. "We're  in Gov side," he said. via @can_nw_

_Kwanchai: the timing isn't right thks to upcoming BKK election. "A  "phuyai" (powerful person) asked me not to pressure Govt." via_

----------


## Butterfly

> I happen to agree. I wish the dems would start playing that role.


they can't when they are dealing with a fascist group on one side, and a bunch of thin skin billionaires criminals on the other

----------


## hazz

I got stuck at the protest about an hour ago, based on 4 people per sam, I estimate the size to be in the order of 2-3,000 with lots of udd flags and memorabilia.  not a bad turn out if its not got support from the udd leaders.

----------


## StrontiumDog

Despite the Red Shirt leaders deciding to stay away, as someone told them to, can't upset Pheu Thai's Bangkok election bid, right? (not sure what that has to do with the 1932 movement and the current amnesty, but never mind eh? Must be good little slaves...do what the big noises want), some Red Shirts have joined today's rally (see Hazz's post above) and pix and video below, from Daily News. Good to see that the Red Shirts (Thaksin proxy) leaders are ignored, gives me hope. 

"

----------


## StrontiumDog

*MCOT English News*             ‏@*MCOT_Eng*  

Red shirt group rallies at  Government House to submit letter to government demanding amnesty law;  Deputy PM Chalerm receives petition

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Red shirt co-leader denies moving against Yingluck government | Bangkok Post: breakingnews
*
*Jatuporn denies Yingluck rift*
Published: 29 Jan 2013 at 11.18Online news:
     Jatuporn Prompan has denied a rumour that he is trying to oust the Yingluck Shinawatra government.

The co-leader of the United front for Democracy against Dictatorship  (UDD) said he considers himself part of the Pheu Thai Party and the  red-shirt group and therefore he would never move against the Pheu  Thai-led administration.

 There were some differences in ideas and views between the UDD and  the government, but these could be settled through discussion, he added.

 Mr Jatuporn believed the rumour was instigated by political rivals attempting to create conflict between the government and UDD.

 Asked about the UDD’s plan to propose its draft amnesty bill to the  government, Mr Jatuporn said UDD leaders will soon discuss with the  prime minister on whether the issuance of the planned law is against the  charter.

 Deputy Commerce Minister Natthawut Saikuar will mediate to arrange a meeting between Ms Yingluck and UDD co-leaders, he said.

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ With the left-out of the cabinet Jatuporn, I'm sure the only disagreement is about how and when he gets his nice new ministerial position. 

Meanwhile, the *real* Red Shirts rally. Without any of the leaders.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

Two things. Why is it ok to post LM stories here w/o your usual 'redactions' and "forum rules" when mentioning HM? Second, my understanding of LM laws related to present HM and immediate family. How does Rama I fit into that? Is that correct? The court ruled on the latter too?

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Jan 29 group rallies at Govt House | Bangkok Post: breakingnews
*
*January 29 group rallies at Govt House*
Published: 29 Jan 2013 at 12.01Online news:
     About 200 members of the January 29 group  rallied in front of Government House on Tuesday demanding the government  release detainees in political cases and accept draft amnesty  legislation to be submitted by several groups for consideration, reports  said.

 The members of the group, drawn from Bangkok and other provinces, began to gather at the Royal Plaza about 6am.

 They set up a stage in front of the equestrian statue of King Rama VI  and put up 18 tents for use by those taking part in the rally.

 Members of the group were later joined by a large number of red-shirts and moved to Government House about 9.30am.

 They planned to submit a draft constitutional amendment drawn up  by the Nitirat Group, which includes provisions on amnesty for those who  were involved in political protests, to Prime Minister Yingluck  Shinawatra.

 The January 29 group would then read out a statement demanding the  release of both detainees and those convicted in political cases.

 The rally was set to end about 10pm on Tuesday.

 Traffic congestion was already evident around the Royal Plaza and Government House by lunch time.

 Thida Thawornseth, chairwoman of the United Front for Democracy  against Dictatorship (UDD), said the UDD had assigned Deputy Commerce  Minister Nattawut Saikuar, a UDD leading member, to submit its draft of  the amnesty decree to the prime minister today.

 "The UDD does not expect the government to use its draft amnesty  decree in its entirety. The draft may be subsequently altered," Mrs  Thida said.

 "Moreover, the UDD would have no objection if the government accepts  for consderation the amnesty proposal of Ukrit Mongkolnavin, chairman of  an independent committee for promotion of the rule of law," she said.

 Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yubamrung said the January 29 group's rally was democratic and not outside the law.

 He did not think the group was applying pressure on the government.

----------


## StrontiumDog

^^ Damed if I do, damned if I don't eh Tom? Thought you'd be pleased. Guess not. Or is it you just like to complain all the time, about everything, especially when it is to do with me.

----------


## piwanoi

> Originally Posted by StrontiumDog
> 
> The UDD co-leader insisted that the amnesty should not cover UDD co-leaders facing charges of terrorism and former premier and Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva and ex-deputy prime minister Suthep Thuagsuban facing charges of attempted murder relating to the 2010 protests.
> 
> 
> So where is he coming from with this??


 WTF does it matter as to who gets amnesty just so long as Thaksin gets it , ain't that why he chose her to go to the polls to  represent him ?, the "sweeteners they produced proved irresistible to those in Issan (the Ayatollahs power base) who only believe in "jam today", tomorrow simply just does not exist  :rofl:

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> ^^ Damed if I do, damned if I don't eh Tom? Thought you'd be pleased. Guess not. Or is it you just like to complain all the time, about everything, especially when it is to do with me.


Not at all. Just seems you pick and choose when to "redact" if the tone of the story strikes your fancy or supports Dem Party leanings or Thaksin-hate campaign.

----------


## Butterfly

> Jatuporn Prompan has denied a rumour that he is trying to oust the Yingluck Shinawatra government.


oh please make it so be true,

----------


## longway

> Voranai knows full well (and so do you SD), that despite the really strong electoral mandate the PTP hold, they cannot change the constitution, never mind try to abolish or amend the LM law. They'd be overthrown in a heartbeat by the military with the full backing of the 2-3,000 rich families who prospered through this triangular system. So little has changed since Sarit's dirty little reign. Yet where is the Thai media on the real history of this country? Why don't they tear off the cheap gilded plaster that covers up the filth of how this nation came to this point in time? Why doesn't Voranai and others tell people what a cnut Sarit was or Suchinda or critically review Prem's tenure? None of these guys are protected by LM laws - nor are the 2-3,000 families who revel and profit through the present repression. Why not report on them? After all, Thailand has a free press and freedom of speech (LM laws excepted).


Don't thailand's problems go much deeper than that? It goes well beyond a few thousand families.

Pretty much the whole is SE Asia is a shithole, with Thailand actually being far better place than most of se asia for working class people. The system is corrupt but it has worked better than the rest. The situation now is about as good as anyone could hope for given the various alternatives.

An elected government is in power and it can enact most of it's policies and be judged for it at the next election cycle. It won't get any better than this. LM and constitutional reform are side issues and are too contentious and too suseptible to subversion to pursue at this stage.

Only a minority are in a hurry to pursue these reforms with most of them having a personal agendas anyway, so fcuk em. Amnesty for the rank and file is another issue and I hope something can be worked out.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Heads of Jan 29 Front have ties to the reds, Thaksin - The Nation
*
*Heads of Jan 29 Front have ties to the reds, Thaksin*

           The Nation January 30, 2013  1:00 am 
*
There are three leaders of the "January 29 Front  - Free Political Prisoners", which held a rally yesterday calling for  the release of people detained for involvement with the 2010 political  unrest and those being imprisoned for violating the lese majeste law.  They are:*

*Kamol Duangpasuk*

     He is a poet with the penname Mai-nueng Kor Kunthi. A resident of Samut  Songkhram, Kamol graduated from Silpakorn University's Faculty of  Painting, Sculpture and Graphic Arts. 

     His poems have been published regularly in the Matichon Weekly magazine  for over a decade. Known as a "people's poet", he participated in many  rallies by the red shirts, reading his poems on stage for the  participants.

*Suda Rangkuphan*

     She is a lecturer at Chulalongkorn University's Faculty of Arts and a  key coordinator of the Patinya Na San (Declaration in front of the  Court) group, which consists of activists campaigning against the coup  of September 2006.

     Her group often campaigned against Article 112 of the Penal Code  involving lese majeste and regularly organised protests at the Criminal  Court following verdicts in the high-profile cases against people found  guilty of insulting the monarchy.

*Darunee Kritboonyalai*

     She is a celebrity businesswoman who is known to have retained good  ties with exiled former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra. Darunee often  took part in street protests by the red shirts and during the 2010  unrest. She was wanted by the authorities, along with other red-shirt  leaders in connection with the upheaval and riots. 

     She made headlines last year when a woman publicly accused her of being  disloyal to the monarchy, which prompted her to file a defamation  complaint.

-----
Red shirts leave Chalerm red-faced - The Nation

*Red shirts leave Chalerm red-faced*

           Atapoom Ongkulna,
Anapat Deechuay
The Nation January 30, 2013  1:00 am 
*
Deputy PM pressured over an amnesty for all 'political prisoners'*

                Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yoobamrung  found himself in an awkward situation yesterday when red-shirt  protesters cornered and pressured him in front of the Government House  to give a promise on a formal amnesty.

     Chalerm appeared confident when he jumped on the sound truck before  some 1,000 red-shirt protesters - only to be red-faced soon after when  the protesters refused to let him leave until he gave them a promise of  amnesty for all red-shirt "political prisoners".

     The protesters led by Suda Rangkuphan, a lecturer at Chulalongkorn  University's Faculty of Arts, gathered at the Royal Plaza at 9.15am.

     They demanded the government grant an amnesty to all political  prisoners through charter amendments as proposed by the Nitirat group of  Thammasat University lecturers.

     The group later moved from the Royal Plaza to rally in front of  Government House. They kept on shouting "29 January - Releasing  political prisoners" and "Power to the people". They demanded that  Cabinet send a representative to accept their demands for adding a  chapter on an amnesty and on political reconciliation to the charter.

     When the atmosphere heated up, Chalerm left Government House to answer the demands.

     After he jumped on the sound truck, he tried to sound friendly with the  protesters, saying he was on the same side as the red-shirts. He said  the prime minister was busy with the Cabinet meeting so she had sent him  to meet them.

     While Chalerm kept on boasting about his performance in stepping up  legal cases against the previous government related to red-shirt  crackdowns, he was interrupted by a red-shirt leader, Mainueng Kor  Kunthee, who was also on the sound truck.

     Mainueng reminded Chalerm that red-shirts rallied yesterday because  they would like to know the government's stand on political prisoners.

     Mainueng said Chalerm must pass on their demands to Cabinet - and it  would have to inform the demonstrators of its decision by yesterday  evening.

     Chalerm tried to please the protesters by telling Mainueng he should  not call red-shirt detainees "political prisoners" because they had done  nothing wrong.

     Mainueng argued that as the red-shirt detainees had done nothing wrong,  why had the government not released them? The question appeared to put  Chalerm in an awkward spot.

     He initially declined to promise that Cabinet would be able to make a  decision about an amnesty informally and inform the protesters by that  evening.

     Chalerm was allowed to leave only after he promised that Cabinet would  send representatives to meet them at the Royal Plaza at 6pm to tell them  of the Cabinet's decision.

     PM's deputy secretary-general Tawat Boonfueng went to the rally venue  last night, took to the stage and said such a law could not be pushed  and finished in one day but the government would work on it. 

     January 29 group leader Suda Rangkuphan, who tried to calm the  protesters, said on the stage that the group would allow the government  to take action within the current parliamentary session, which will  finish in April. 

     Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra said she had assigned Chalerm to  receive the proposal and gather versions of laws presented for the  government to consider. Legal experts, especially the Council of State,  would then look into the matter.

     Red-shirt leader Thida Thavornseth said yesterday Deputy Commerce  Minister Natthawut Saikua, one of the red-shirt leaders, was assigned to  cooperate with the government on the group's version of the amnesty  law, which differs from that of Nitirat and the "29 January" Group.

     The Nitirat Group proposed an amnesty bill as part of a changes to the  constitution. The amnesty would cover all "political prisoners"  including those detained due to lese majeste cases, but would exclude  state officials, while the red shirt-sponsored draft would be in the  form of an executive decree. Leaders of the rallies and state officials  would not get an amnesty.

-----
Grassroots red-shirt rally puts govt in tricky spot - The Nation

*Grassroots red-shirt rally puts govt in tricky spot*

           Attayuth Bootrsripoom
The Nation January 30, 2013  1:00 am 
 
A demonstrator wears a symbolic chain tied to his  neck and wrists during a rally  yesterday outside Government House,  which was led by red-shirt intellectuals calling for the  release of red  protesters from prisons.

*Yesterday's rebel red-shirt protest caught many  political observers by surprise. The rally drew a little over 1,000  people and had failed to get the blessing of the movement's leaders, but  it will likely put the government in an awkward position.*

                The group, calling itself the "January  29 Front - Free Political Prisoners" - demanded the release of  "political prisoners" and accused the government and red-shirt leaders  of ignoring their plight to protect their grip on power. By "political  prisoners" they meant people detained either for participation in the  political unrest in 2010 or for lese majeste.

     In its statement, the group said the ruling politicians and red-shirt  leadership had made no sincere effort to "return justice to the  political prisoners, although the power that you gained directly  resulted from the fight of the red-shirt people". They also urged the  government to pass the constitutional amendment proposed by the Nitirat  group of academics that is said to offer a general amnesty to settle the  political conflict.

     The last straw for the group appeared to be the Criminal Court's recent  sentencing of Voice of Taksin magazine editor Somyot Pruksakasemsuk to  10 years in prison for lese majeste. Earlier, the death of an elderly  man in custody for the same charge also fomented much dissatisfaction  among critics of Article 112 of the Criminal Code, or the "lese majeste"  law. 

     The January 29 Front, which consists mostly of academics and  campaigners against Article 112, is viewed as "more ideological" than  other groups of red shirts. However, some of the group's leaders are  known to be close chums with ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra.

     Yesterday's demonstration was the first protest against the Yingluck Shinawatra government by any group of red shirts. 

     However, other red-shirt groups appear to be lukewarm to the notion of  taking to the streets with this "hot issue" of lese majeste, not to  mention publicly criticising "their government". Red-shirt leader Thida  Thawornseth said the group's cause differed from hers and another  leader, Kwanchai Praipana, said he opted to side with the government.

     The January 29 Front has certainly caused uneasiness for the government  by being aggressive in making its demands and insisting on quick action  by the government.

     This move by its own backers has put the Pheu Thai-led administration  in a difficult position. The ruling coalition has carefully avoided any  "risk factor" that could shorten its life span. They should be aware  that their supporters' anguish could build up to become a strong force  against them. However, by meeting all the demands of their supporters,  the government will also risk upsetting the status quo - a step that  could bring its downfall closer.

----------


## hazz

> PM's deputy secretary-general Tawat Boonfueng went to the rally venue last night, took to the stage and said such a law could not be pushed and finished in one day but the government would work on it.


very true, but one could expect some progress after more than 500 'only one' days in power. after all they control parliament and parliament makes the law. once would have thought they would be in a position to draft laws regarding bail and bail conditions. after all then holding a political prisoner on remand, allowing them out under house arrest with restrictions on who the can communicate with achieves the same result without the unpleasantness of jail.

All I have seen is some window dressing to keep the UDD quiet, namely the charging of mark and shutup.

----------


## Butterfly

this is quite a sad farce,

I don't see how it can end politely,

----------


## sabang

> Jatuporn Prompan has denied a rumour that he is trying to oust the Yingluck Shinawatra government.


Craven nonsense.



> Grassroots red-shirt rally puts govt in tricky spot


So it should. I'm afraid, with the competing interest groups in Thai politics, real grass roots movements and concerns are often shoved to the back of the queue. The UDD are doing the right thing pressuring the government- they are the ones that paid the price, in blood sweat and tears, for the restoration of democracy in this country, and they are the ones being ignored now while the infantile 'big boys' play their silly games. If it wasn't for the UDD, it is questionable if Yingluck would be PM now. If they totally fall out, it is even more questionable she will be so again. The UDD probably control more clout in most swinging constituencies than the democrats.

----------


## longway

It's the other way around, without the PT the reds would be just a rudderless bunches of malcontents and the UDD would not exist.

They were useful when the PT was in opposition, now they are just a useless pain in the arse, a few bones here and there will keep them quiet. The real focus now is getting money into the provinces to maintain stability.

The UDD restored democracy haha, very droll.

----------


## sabang

> without the PT the reds would be just a rudderless bunches of malcontents


That is exactly the way the likes of Chalerm would like it- and it is incumbent on the UDD not to play ball, and just get trampled. You are quite wrong there, but at the same time it is naive to look at them as some sort of monolith. They have several different elements, or factions- provincial, Bangkok, northern, Isaan, rabidly pro-Thaksin, Thaksin neutral. Unlike BJT, I think the UDD are here to stay.

----------


## Norton

> they can't when they are dealing with a fascist group on one side, and a bunch of thin skin billionaires criminals on the other


All part of Thai politics no matter the party. Win majority then seek revenge on your political enemies, legally via a far from independent justice system or via non judicial methods.

----------


## longway

> Originally Posted by longway
> 
> without the PT the reds would be just a rudderless bunches of malcontents
> 
> 
> That is exactly the way the likes of Chalerm would like it- and it is incumbent on the UDD not to play ball, and just get trampled. You are quite wrong there, but at the same time it is naive to look at them as some sort of monolith. They have several different elements, or factions- provincial, Bangkok, northern, Isaan, rabidly pro-Thaksin, Thaksin neutral. Unlike BJT, I think the UDD are here to stay.


Who is looking at them as some kind of monolith? The main thing that most red shirt groups is their pro thaksin stance. He gets more government money spent in the ne and north of the country as long as he delivers the money they are happy.

Outside thaksin they have no real common identity, maybe a few things like anti army sentiments with a substantial minority wanting the unmentionable, but empty of anything but rhetoric, propaganda and negativity.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Kwanchai urges 'slow' amnesty | Bangkok Post: breakingnews
*
*Kwanchai urges 'slow' amnesty*
Published: 30 Jan 2013 at 21.27Online news:Red-shirt core member Kwanchai Praipana  Wednesday called on members of a red shirt-affiliated group to remain  calm after they pressured the government to consider an amnesty for  political offenders, warning such move could undermine voters’ support  for Pheu Thai governor candidate Pongsapat Pongcharoen.

      The Udon Thani-based red-shirt leader was speaking after the “January  29 for the Release of Political Prisoners'' group, led by Chulalongkorn  University lecturer Suda Rankupan, gathered at the Royal Plaza on  Tuesday to urge the government to consider an amnesty proposal by the  Nitirat group.

 “Our Bangkok governor candidate (Pol Gen Pongsapat) is doing well so  far. Coming out like this may unnecessarily frustrate undecided, neutral  voters in the capital,” Mr Kwanchai said.

 “It’s not the right timing [for the rally]. Can’t we wait. Why bring  in the mass of people. Why five or six leaders from the group don’t sit  down and discuss the issue with prime minister, why mobilised the  rally.”

  He said the group should not have thrown a political hot potato to  the government as they already had difficulty handling the amnesty issue  and listening to both supporters and opponents of the proposal. The  group should wait for the outcome of the March 3rd election and file its  request after that, Mr Kwanchai added.

 The January 29 group dispersed about 8pm on Tuesday after Prime  Minister Yingluck Shinawatra had agreed to forward Nitirat's proposal to  the Council of State for consideration. The proposal will be referred  back to the cabinet for further submission to parliament.

  Nitirat's proposed amnesty would reach back to the September 2006  coup that ousted Ms Yingluck's brother Thaksin Shinawatra. It would  cover all political offences committed since then.

 The group, previously named the Declaration Outside the Court, has  been campaigning for the release of political prisoners of all colours.

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ Why is Kwanchai pulling this crap?

This isn't a national election. It isn't removing Abhisit. It is just a normal (if that ever happens here) Bangkok election. Why do the Red Shirts have to play ball and be all quiet? It isn't about causing problems for Pheu Thai at a national level (or all the other excuses used to keep the Red Shirts inline before). It's just Bangkok. 

Further evidence, as if any were needed, that the Red Shirts leaders are nothing but Thaksin's proxies. The real Red Shirts need to break away from these lying sacks of crap as soon as possible.

----------


## Gerbil

Its the symbolism.

Control of Bangkok = control of the country in many peoples eyes.

It's something that the present incumbents of Government house have never been associated with (unless you count Samak who was a complete loose canon anyway).

If they had control of Bangkok, that would go a long way in silencing the critics who say 'it's just the poor uneducated Isaan folk who vote for them'.

On a slightly related note.... Maggie Thatcher abolished the GLC back in the 80's almost purely because she couldn't stand sitting in her office in Westminster and looking across the river at 'Red Ken' in his office.

----------


## sabang

The BMA is plagued by allegations of corruption, even by Thai standards. While this is not necessarily a party political thing, it is certainly being used as such by the challengers.

----------


## longway

^^^ Further consolidation of power? The democrats have managed to field a weak candidate, proving they are in no fit state to govern. If thaksin keeps his yap shut and not too many demos then they have a good chance of claiming it.

The red shirts have been led so far down the garden path they live among the fairies now. Maybe they can try clicking their heels and wishing really really hard.

Small but embarrassing gatherings at awkward times is the best they can manage? Maybe be able to get a concession or 2.

----------


## Gerbil

> Small but embarrassing gathering at awkward times is the best they can manage?

----------


## Tom Sawyer

> Further evidence, as if any were needed, that the Red Shirts leaders are nothing but Thaksin's proxies. The real Red Shirts need to break away from these lying sacks of crap as soon as possible.


Yes they do SD, but not quite yet. They need to live with the devil they know - for now. Do you really think the left-wing of this coalition is blindly following this? And ask yourself this - when the shit hits the fan, which faction is best placed within what is now a real movement for change to call for REAL PEOPLE on the streets for their OWN good? It won't be the newly-rich chink families who were outside of the Amart and thus supporting Thaksin, it will be the masses. And I'll give you this -- I'll bet the right-wing (Thaksin's stooges) are already preparing for that eventuality -- arrests, detentions, etc. Right out of the US play book on assisting 'friendly nations' against insurgency.

----------


## longway

^ The stronger the PT gets the less relevant the factions not associated with the PT become.

----------


## Tom Sawyer

^
Ye of little faith

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Abhisit seeks clarity on amnesty efforts - The Nation
*
*Abhisit seeks clarity on amnesty efforts*

           The Nation

 January 31, 2013  1:00 am 
*
The government should specify the groups and  individuals entitled to amnesty in order to give a clear idea of what  the legal absolution would entail, Democrat Party leader Abhisit  Vejjajiva said yesterday.*

                "The amnesty is part of the reconciliation process but without clear  guidelines, the amnesty debate can deepen the conflict," he said.

    Abhisit said the Democrats did not oppose the absolution of violations  committed due to political belief, although they wanted a clear  classification of those qualified for amnesty.

    He said he doubted whether cases involving assailants, such as the ones  who had fired M-79 grenades into crowds and government installations,  should be included in the amnesty review.

    A hasty move to grant amnesty might set bad precedents on law enforcement, he added.

    Future rally organisers might encourage violence in the hope of  securing amnesty and offenders would cite political belief to justify  their crimes, the former prime minister said.

    He urged the government to show its goodwill by withdrawing the four coalition-sponsored draft bills on reconciliation.

    If the bills were to be dropped, this would give a fresh start to frame  the amnesty debate without animosity and suspicion between the  coalition and the opposition, he said.

    The draft provisions have the ulterior motive of rescuing fugitive  former PM Thaksin Shinawatra and the coalition is using bullying tactics  to try and silence the opposition, he maintained.

    Meanwhile, Defence Minister Sukampol Suwannathat said he could not  comment on the amnesty push by the January 29 faction of the red-shirt  movement. The government has designated agencies to review the faction's  call for amnesty and would give its reply in due course, he said.

    House Speaker Somsak Kiatsuranont said if all sides would take part in a  dialogue on how best to implement an amnesty, then this would be a good  start to settling the political conflict.

    He said the government should take the lead role to involve all sides in the amnesty debate.

-----
Many amnesty ideas, but do any of them have support? - The Nation

burning issue

*Many amnesty ideas, but do any of them have support?*

           Attayuth Bootsripoom
attayuth_nna
Attayuth@nationgroup.com
The Nation January 31, 2013  1:00 am 
*
To grant amnesty or not, is not the key  question. The question is whether an amnesty would really lead to  genuine reconciliation.*

                The Pheu Thai-led government should seriously ponder this question now  that efforts have been stepped up to call for enactment of an amnesty  law.

    A series of calls for amnesty have been made recently and those behind  the calls claimed the efforts were concerted ones. However, several  signs indicated the calls or proposals had something in common, making  the efforts appear collaborative.

    It started with the proposal of the Nitirat group of lecturers from  Thammasat University, who called for a charter amendment to make a new  provision on amnesty. The proposal was a strong-medicine approach in  line with Nitirat's style.

    Nitirat proposed that only the demonstrators should be absolved. Their  leaders would also benefit from the amnesty if they proved they led the  protests because of political conflict, not because they were hired. Of  course, those who were jailed under the lese majeste law would also  receive the benefit.

    But under Nitirat's proposal, no government officials would be absolved  irrespective of whether they were officials carrying out the crackdown  orders or they were the officials who gave the orders. Nitirat claimed  the officials were already protected by the law if they had done nothing  wrong. Refraining from granting amnesty to officials would also set a  precedent for junior officials to refuse wrongful orders in future.

    Of course, the Nitirat proposal was strongly criticised and the  question raised as to why amnesty needed to be included among the  country's highest laws. Critics said Nitirat had ignored the fact that  junior officials would never know whether the orders they received were  right or wrong.

    Of course, Nitirat's proposal was rejected by the government although  it was supported by the extreme leftist red-shirt group. But this  red-shirt group is not a major one and it has definitely infuriated  several mass groups that support the government. Even worse, Nitirat  also linked the amnesty to the campaign for amendment of Article 112 on  lese majeste, so the government could not comply with it.

    Then the mainstream red-shirt movement, the Democratic Alliance Against  Dictatorship, which has the biggest mass support, proposed its own  amnesty draft executive decree. The DAAD called for the government to  issue a decree to grant amnesty because it would be the fastest way.

    The DAAD proposed that all groups of demonstrators who faced charges  after the 2006 coup, should be absolved no matter if they were leaders  or followers. The draft also proposed amnesty for junior officials but  would exclude the top officials, who gave crackdown orders, from the  amnesty.

    But not all sides supported the proposal. The biggest drawback was the  proposal to enact a decree. Doing so would bypass Parliament and would  cause the opponents to seek a ruling from the Constitution Court as to  whether it would be unconstitutional or not.

    Just a few days after the DAAD proposal drew criticism, the independent  National Rule of Law Commission, headed by Ukrit Mongkolnavin, came up  with its own proposal. The NRLC proposed a bill similar to the DAAD's,  but this time the amnesty would have to be approved by Parliament.

    Ukrit's proposal has been so far the most appropriate and could win the most public acceptance.

    On Tuesday, a group of red shirts, which called itself the January 29  Network for Freeing of Political Prisoners, held a rally to again  pressure the government to amend the charter to include amnesty in the  Constitution.

    Following the pressure from this group, the government, which was about  to adopt Ukrit's proposal, would have to think it over again as to  which method it should use.

    But the government could not ignore a key question. Will the amnesty  really be needed for creating reconciliation? If the government is able  to prove that amnesty is really needed for reconciliation, the public  will definitely support it.

    If not, the government should remain open for other options.

----------


## longway

> ^
> Ye of little faith


Nowt to do with faith, just an objective observation. You better pray that he democrats squeeze a win, or the PT will completely outgrow the non PT reds.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Chalerm says 'no' to decree to free reds | Bangkok Post: news
*
*Chalerm says  'no' to decree to free reds*
Published: 31 Jan 2013 at 00.00Newspaper section: News
     Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yubamrung has  rejected the possibility of the government issuing an executive decree  to free red-shirt political prisoners.

     Mr Chalerm was responding yesterday to the demand of a  red-shirt-affiliated group called "January 29 for the Release of  Political Prisoners."The deputy prime minister said if such a decree is  issued, some parties would ask the Constitution Court to rule on its  legality. It would then be nullified because it contradicts Section 184  of the charter.

 The section permits executive decrees only when urgent action is  necessary for national security, public safety, the security of the  economy or the prevention of a public disaster. None of those grounds  would qualify, he said.

 He was speaking personally as a veteran politician. However, the  government had received the demand of the red-shirt group and sent it to  the Council of State for consideration.

 He dismissed the notion that failure to please red-shirt demonstrators would threaten the stability of the government.

 Although the government and red shirts were on the same side, the group had to base its actions upon the law, he said.

 Kwanchai Praipana, leader of another red-shirt group, said yesterday  the January 29 group should not have staged its rally in Bangkok on  Tuesday as it might hurt the chances of the Pheu Thai Party candidate in  the upcoming Bangkok governor election.

 Opposition leader Abhisit Vejjajiva yesterday said the government was  unlikely to push for an amnesty for jailed red-shirt demonstrators  unless it also benefited the "big boss". He was referring to deposed  prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra who is on the run from a jail term.

 Mr Abhisit criticised the government for holding jailed red shirts hostage.

 Mr Abhisit said his Democrat Party did not oppose an amnesty for  people who had breached the state of emergency out of their political  beliefs.

----------


## StrontiumDog

Justice, but at what price? | Bangkok Post: opinion

EDITORIAL  
*
Justice, but at what price?*
Published: 31 Jan 2013 at 00.00Newspaper section: NewsIt is no secret that Thailand has been stuck in  a protracted colour-coded political conflict for more than six years  without any sign of when this conflict will ever be resolved or eased.  It is also no secret that all attempts at national reconciliation have  become bogged down simply because the opposing key players in the  conflict are unable to sit together at the same table to resolve their  differences in a mature and reasonable manner without pointing  accusatory fingers at one another.

     The political quagmire which Thailand has created for itself has  sapped the country's ability to move forward both politically and  economically.

 Ask any foreign investor about what their main concern is about  investing or doing business in Thailand, and the most common answer is  political instability as a result of the long-standing conflict.

 The Nitirat group of academics recently proposed constitutional  amendments to grant an amnesty to all offenders arrested, prosecuted or  sentenced for their involvement in the political crises between  September 2006 and May 2010.

 Like other attempts at reconciliation through the submission of  reconciliation bills to parliament, Nitirat's proposal was greeted with  the cold shoulder from both the government and opposition camps until it  was given a new lease of life when a splinter group of the red-shirt  movement, called the "January 29 for the Release of Political Prisoners  Group," took to the streets on Tuesday demanding the government adopt  the Nitirat group's proposed charter amendment.

 The group leader, Suda Rankupan, a lecturer at Chulalongkorn  University, said the political conflict which has gripped the country  since the coup in September 2006 has caused extensive damage to the  country, resulted in deaths and injuries and led to more than 1,000  people being arrested and detained by the now-defunct Centre for the  Resolution of the Emergency Situation.

 In contrast to the government's half-hearted response to the group's  proposal, Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva said he was willing to  discuss the amnesty issue on the condition that it is limited to  political offenders and does not include those charged with criminal or  corruption offences.

 An amnesty for people charged with defying the emergency decree  during political protests over the past six years _ and not including  those charged with criminal offences such as arson, robbery or shootings  causing injury or death _ makes sense because many of the offenders  believe they were fighting for democracy as they defied the emergency  decree.

 Granting them bail as a prelude to an amnesty would help ease tension  and ease the hardship of families whose breadwinners have been held in  custody since their arrest, in some cases for many months.

 An amnesty has been deployed in many countries as a political tool of  compromise and reunion or reconciliation following a civil war or a  serious political conflict.

 In Thailand, 13 amnesty laws have been promulgated since 1932, mostly to free coup-makers from criminal liability.

 One day we may have to face up to the following tough question: "Do we want peace and reconciliation, or legal justice?"

 In Sierra Leone following a devastating civil war, the United States  and Britain which intervened in the bloody conflict agreed that "peace  and harmony" were more important than pursuing the culprits. There is a  lesson to be learned there.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Of real red-shirts and fake red-shirts | Bangkok Post: opinion
*
*Of real red-shirts and fake red-shirts*
Published: 31 Jan 2013 at 10.12Online news: Opinion
     Within the United Front for Democracy against  Dictatorships (UDD) there are red-shirts who believe the struggle is  more than just about one man. But there are also red-shirts who know  only how to dance at the end of the string dangled by that one man.

       Fake red-shirts are tools of the billionaire political machine –  they yell and scream about power to the people as a marketing gimmick,  but actually serve the interests of the political machine above all  else. They include both the peaceful and the hardcore. 

 Real red-shirts include human rights activists, democracy advocates  and even proponents of republicanism. They fight for what they perceive  as the power of the people, rather than as puppets dangling at the end  of the string of a political machine. They include both the peaceful and  the hardcore.

 
Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yubamrung addresses red-shirt members  who gathered at the Royal Plaza on Tuesday to demand the government  consider an amnesty proposal for political prisoners. (Photo by Patipat  Janthong)

  Fake red-shirts are those who condone and make excuses. They are the  ones who conveniently ignore Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yubamrung’s  open support for the lese majeste law. They are the ones who not only  sit idly by but in fact profer excuses why the Pheu Thai government is  not fulfilling promises made to its support base. 

 Real red-shirts, meanwhile, continue to make demands and put pressure on the Pheu Thai government to fulfill its promises. 

 That the threats to the Pheu Thai government are tanks and protesters  on the streets and judges on the Constitution Court bench have been  well discussed. 

 Those are the threats; what then are the courses of action? To be  cowed into inaction and eventual submission in the interests of staying  in power, or to take a stance and to fulfill the promises made to the  people who voted for them? 

 Thus far, in the case of the lese majeste law, there has only been  not just inaction, but open support for it, as declared by Mr Chalerm –  the irony of it all. 

 To amend the law immediately may perhaps be too controversial,  granted. To do away with the law altogether would be playing with fire,  understood. 

 But to take some sort of a stance, to say a word or two against the  abuse and exploitation of the lese majeste law should not be beyond the  courage and conviction of the Pheu Thai government. That is, if it is  truly sincere in its promises of justice, democracy and human rights. 

 On Tuesday, the real red-shirts, calling themselves the January 29  group, marched on Government House to submit a letter demanding amnesty  for those they call "political prisoners", in accordance with the  proposal by the Nitirat group. 

 Whether one agrees with their political stand or not, they are  exercising democratic power in demanding that the government they voted  for fulfill its promises. 

 One may argue about whether those in jail are "political prisoners"  or "imprisoned terrorists", but one can appreciate the consistency and  conviction of the real red-shirts who are pressuring the Pheu Thai  government.

 Amnesty and lese majeste, two issues on the same plate. Many of those  red-shirts in jail are there on lese majeste charges, most recently  Somyot Prueksakasemsuk, who last week received an 11 year prison  sentence.

 
Red-shirt co-leader Jatuporn Prompan (Photo by Somchai Poomlard)

  The leaders of this January 29 group are not named Jatuporn Prompan  or Nattawut Saikuar. They are Suda Rangkupan, human rights activist and  member of Chulalongkorn University's faculty of arts. They are Mai-nueng  Gor Goontee, writer, poet and human rights activist. 

 During the rally, Mai-nueng even went so far as to announce that if  the government did not have an answer for the group by 6pm, they would  close down Government House and set up a permanent rally stage. 

 It is ironic indeed that Mr Chalerm, who on behalf of the Pheu Thai  government supports lese majeste, was chosen to receive the group’s  letter and addressed them from the stage. Prime Minister Yingluck  Shinawatra said later the government will take all amnesty proposals,  including the demands of the January 29 group, into consideration.

 At the end of it, Thawat Boonfueng, deputy secretary-general for the  prime minister, was sent to address the crowd. He asked for time for the  Council of State to vet to the proposal. Satisfied, at least for now,  the gathering  dispersed by 8pm. 

 Let’s give the government the benefit of the doubt, for now at least.  While the integrity of the Pheu Thai government remains to be  seen, they still have more than two years left to prove themselves. In  fact, let’s be honest, with the way things are going they probably have  another 20 years in power, at least. 

 But today the question is -  should the government be cowed by the  fear of possibly losing power into sacrificing promises of justice,  democracy and human rights; or – at the very least – should it have the  courage to take some sort of a public stand, starting with the lese  majeste law, to simply say something.

 But then again, as has been repeated and is worth repeating again, Mr  Chalerm already has taken that stance on behalf of the government. The  stance is to support lese majeste.  

 Real red-shirts are those who put power to the people above all else.  Fake red-shirts are those who serve the power of the political machine  above all else.

 Regardless, at the end of the day both sides have one thing in common  in that they will vote for Pheu Thai come what may, as the opposition,  the alternative, is far too entrenched with the conservative  establishment.

 Meanwhile, perhaps it’s worthwhile asking a reflective question: what  are we actually fighting for?  Power to the people or power for the  political machine? Some will tell you though, that they are one and the  same – and that’s the magical power of brainwashing. 

 Yet, it does beg the question - depending on who owns and runs the  UDD, which side is actually the real red-shirts and which the fake?


Writer: Voranai Vanijaka

----------


## Butterfly

> political offenders and does not include those charged with criminal or corruption offences.


seems quite reasonable,




> Real red-shirts include human rights activists, democracy advocates and even proponents of republicanism. They fight for what they perceive as the power of the people, rather than as puppets dangling at the end of the string of a political machine. They include both the peaceful and the hardcore.


no matter how real they are, they don't have the political funding to go on their own or the crowd big enough to follow them

----------


## longway

^ Yeah so much for the hype

----------


## sabang

I hardly think an editorialist from the paste is in a situation to define what is a 'real' and what is a 'fake' red shirt. But at least it makes a refreshing change from the earlier invective, basically implying that all UDD demonstrators rode in on buffalo carts from rural Isaan.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Imprisoned red-shirts are merely expendable pawns, opines Veera | Bangkok Post: opinion
*
*Imprisoned red-shirts merely expendable pawns*
Published:  1 Feb 2013 at 13.09Online news: Opinion
     It should not be surprising that the demand for  amnesty for jailed red-shirt protesters has been given the cold  shoulder by both the government and the United Front for Democracy  against Dictatorship, because the government's political stability is  deemed more important than the plight of the prisoners.

     The imprisoned red-shirts, who were involved in the anti-government  protests in April-May 2010, may not have heard what Kwanchai Praipana, a  key red-shirt leader in Udon Thani, said about the rally organised on   Tuesday this week by the January 29 group, a small red-shirt faction, at  the Royal Plaza to demand amnesty for "political prisoners".

 “They (January 29 group) should not be too self-centred. Why can’t  they wait until we have won the Bangkok governor election? Only then,  they should submit their proposed amnesty plan,” Mr Kwanchai was quoted  as saying one day after the group’s rally, which drew about 1,000  participants.

 
The January 29 for the Release of Political Prisoners group, led by  Chulalongkorn University lecturer Suda Rankupan, gathers at the Royal  Plaza from late morning to urge the government to consider an amnesty  proposal by the Nitirat group. Photo by Patipat Janthong.

   It is not only Mr Kwanchai who distanced himself from the rally and  its demand the government accept the Nitirat group’s suggestions for  constitutional amendment and granting of  amnesty to all protesters  charged, detained or convicted for defying the emergency decree during  the political protests. The government and other red-shirt leaders  affiliated with the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship  (UDD)  also gave it a cold reception, although they were more diplomatic  in expressing their views than the blunt Mr Kwanchai.

 Had the imprisoned red-shirts heard Mr Kwanchai’s remarks they might  have retorted: “How much longer do we have to wait Mr Kwanchai? We have  been in prison for more than two years. Do you think that we should be  even more patient and that the governor’s election is more important  than our plight?"

 And finally they might have added: “Mr Kwanchai, join us in prison to  experience life behind bars, so that you know how we feel. Then you  might say differently."

 Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra said the government would consider  all proposals  for amnesty, including the January 29 group's point of  view. But it would have to be vetted by the Council of State for legal  issues and then considered along with the other proposed amnesty bills,  probably in April. 

 Maybe. Again, a cold shoulder.

 It should now be clear to the January 29 group, the imprisoned  red-shirts and their relatives that the prisoners will have to spend  more time behind bars as the government will not do anything about the  amnesty issue before at least April.

 And that does not mean that the issue can be resolved quickly. The  process may take months even though, as a matter of principle, the  opposition Democrats have no objection to it so long as the amnesty is  limited only to people charged with defying the emergency decree, not  people on criminal charges.

 It is understandable that the government does not want to rock the  boat on the amnesty issue because it could well provoke protests from  hard-core yellow-shirt followers of the People's Alliance for Democracy,  who are concerned that a limited amnesty may just be the starter that  paves the way for more amnesties for more offences, including lese  majeste and corruption, which would benefit former prime minister  Thaksin Shinawatra and allow him to escape punishment.

 But the government’s fear is overstated. If it really wants to help  the imprisoned red-shirt protesters it should embrace the amnesty  proposal, but not through constitutional amendment. It should be in the  form of legislation, since the Democrat-led opposition has already made  clear its support for such a bill, on the condition that it is limited  only to breaches of the emergency decree.

 Or the government could help bail out detainees who took part in  protests in the belief they actually were just fighting for democracy.

  But, unfortunately, they are instead being treated as if they are  low-value pawns on a political chess board, and therefore expendable.


Writer: Veera Prateepchaikul


-----
natthawut lobbies pm on draft amnesty decree - The Nation

*natthawut lobbies pm on draft amnesty decree*

           The Nation

 February 2, 2013  1:00 am 
*
Deputy Commerce Minister Natthawut Saikua  yesterday sought support from Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra for the  red-shirt movement's draft executive decree to grant amnesty to  political demonstrators.*

Speaking  to reporters after meeting Yingluck, Natthawut, a red-shirt leader,  said he informed the prime minister of details of the draft executive  decree of the Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship.

He  said he would later submit the draft, which has four articles, to the  prime minister so it could be forwarded to the Council of State for  consideration.

Natthawut  said he informed the prime minister that the decree would seek to  absolve those detained or facing charges because of political conflict  since the September 19, 2006 coup - but leaders of any side or group  would not receive an amnesty under the decree.

He  said he told Yingluck that after the public received the amnesty, it  would be easier to hold talks on reconciliation because people would be  relieved from the pain of crackdowns or persecution by authorities.

Natthawut  said he informed the prime minister there were both proponents and  opponents of an amnesty for the mass of people. For example, the Nitirat  group and the National Rule of Law Commission had proposed their  versions of an amnesty.

Natthawut  said the prime minister was told the opponents, including the Democrat  Party, were not clear in their opposition. They opposed the amnesty only  because they feared former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra would  receive the amnesty as well.

Natthawut  quoted Yingluck as saying her government had a policy to create  reconciliation - but since there are several proposals for an amnesty,  the Council of State should be asked to review all suggestions before  coming up with the best way to grant amnesty.

Yesterday,  Atchaporn Jarujinda, secretary-general of the Council of State, was  summoned to meet the prime minister. He said he had not discussed the  amnesty draft law with the prime minister because the government had not  yet submitted the drafts to his office. "So far, I don't know what to  do with them if the drafts are submitted now because the government has  not yet [deliberated on them]," Atchaporn said.

----------


## piwanoi

Lets be quite Frank here ,all the reds ever were was Political cannon fodder, grist to Thaksins mill!  :Smile:

----------


## Tom Sawyer

Depends on your perspective. To the anti-Red crowd this is the perspective. To Thaksin this might also have been his perspective. To the ever-growing grassroots movement to turn the Kingdom into a real representative democracy, there is another view that is opposite to yours, "Frank".

----------


## Butterfly

> To the ever-growing grassroots movement to turn the Kingdom into a real representative democracy,


there isn't going to be "democracy" without a "socialist" revolution in this country,

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Red rifts will grow if amnesty plight ignored | Bangkok Post: opinion
*
*Red rifts will grow if amnesty plight ignored*
Published:  2 Feb 2013 at 00.00Newspaper section: News
     At a glance, the Yingluck Shinawatra  administration is doing well to restore the country's image after  political protests in the capital and the subsequent bloody crackdown in  2010.

 
The ‘January 29 for the Release of Political Prisoners’ group took to  the streets this week to urge the government to consider amnesty for  political prisoners. PATTARAPONG CHATPATTARASIL

 Yet there are growing signs that it is starting to feel the heat -  not from its political opponents, but from its own supporters.

 Tuesday's rally by the red shirt-affiliated "January 29 for the  Release of Political Prisoners" group clearly demonstrated the rising  levels of discontent among supporters of the Yingluck government. These  people stepped out to demand their fair share from the government which  they helped vote into power.

 The red-shirt movement has progressed politically far beyond the  original United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD). It has  now transformed into a civic group of Pheu Thai supporters, who until  this week had waited patiently for their government to deliver on a  campaign promise it made both openly and behind the scenes - amnesty for  political prisoners.

 Well aware of the sensitivity of such a move, the group has been  timidly begging for justice for their comrades - those on the run as  well as those behind bars - since the installment of the Pheu Thai  government in 2011.

 While it's not their goal to topple the government, the division  within the ranks of government supporters has become more visible.

 While compensation packages to those injured and the families of  those killed in the April-May 2010 crackdown have significantly reduced  frustrations, it is simply not enough for those whose lives have been  derailed, if not shattered, by criminal charges stemming from the  political divide. The lukewarm response to amnesty from the Yingluck  government, which has cited legal technicalities for delaying the move,  must be a disappointment for supporters, especially for the more  progressive red-shirt factions.

 By making excuses and further promises (that the amnesty proposal  needs to first go to the Council of State, etc), the Yingluck government  is simply distancing itself from the contentious issue.

 At the same time, the opposition and anti-red media have had no  hesitation in rubbing salt into the wounds of the families of detainees,  highlighting the point that their demands are being shunned by the very  people for whom they fought to put in power.

 On a more positive note for reconciliation, the case of former Voice  of Taksin editor Somyot Preuksakasemsuk, who was last month sentenced to  10 years in prison for lese majeste, has helped bridge the political  divide. Non-red activists and intellectuals from anti-Thaksin camps have  united and shown sympathy by submitting a petition calling for a  lighter sentence for Somyot.

 Of course, amnesty alone will not bring peace, let alone justice. But it would certainly help.

 The government should consider - and act on - the proposal by the  "January 29" group that some prisoners, especially those who were  mobilised during the political turmoil, be freed or bailed.

 After all, many of the arrested and imprisoned red shirts have  already, in many cases undeservingly, spent many dark days and nights in  prison.

 By granting the amnesty, prisoners' families could move on with their  lives. The prisoners themselves could at least apply for jobs.

 The least the government could do, without the need for more  parliamentary debate, is revoke the thousands of outstanding arrest  warrants stemming from recent political violence.

 It is time for the Pheu Thai government, especially the "red darling"  prime minister, to show a humane face and give something back to its  true supporters.

 The cabinet, meanwhile, should set aside time to discuss the plight  of families who have been torn apart by political conflict and figure  out ways to help them.

 Don't forget that these are the same people who the government will  rely upon to return them to power come election time in two years or so.

 The Democrat Party already learned their lesson from the last  election, where they were punished not only at the grassroots, but also  from their middle-class support base who were sick of their politicking  and below-the-belt tactics.

 Pheu Thai risk losing their progressive turf if they continue to drag their feet on amnesty for political prisoners.

* Achara Ashayagachat


-----
UDD open to compromise | Bangkok Post: news

**UDD open to compromise*
Published:  2 Feb 2013 at 00.00Newspaper section: News
     Red-shirt members do not mind which version of  the political amnesty proposal is passed by the government, as long as  it honours the group's principles, core red-shirt leader Nattawut  Saikuar says.

     Three proposals to grant amnesty to political offenders have been accepted for consideration by the government.

 The red-shirt United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD)  submitted one, along with one from the independent National Rule of Law  Commission and one from the Nitirat group of Thammasat academics.

 Mr Nattawut said the UDD would not pressure the government to accept  its own proposal, as long as it does push through a law that releases  all civilian political prisoners.

 The UDD wants the amnesty to be enabled by an executive decree so  that it can bypass parliamentary scrutiny, while the commission's  version wants an amnesty to be approved by parliament. The Nitirat group  proposed the amnesty be included in the government's constitutional  amendments.

 Mr Nattawut said that the UDD would also accept the findings of the  Council of State, a politically neutral body which has been assigned by  the government to scrutinise all amnesty proposals.

 "No matter what its study says, the UDD is ready to accept it," he said.

 He was speaking after a discussion with Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra about the UDD's amnesty proposal.

 He said the proposed amnesty differs from the draft national  reconciliation bill pending parliamentary scrutiny. The bill did not  discuss amnesty in detail.

 Democrat spokesman Chavanond Intarakomalyasut yesterday voiced  scepticism over the UDD's rush for amnesty to be granted to political  offenders who have been charged since the 2006 coup which ousted Thaksin  Shinawatra.

 He said two court cases were apparently tipping the scales against the red shirts, making the amnesty an urgent matter for them.

 One of them involved a series of defamation lawsuits lodged by  Democrat leader Abhisit Vejjajiva against red-shirt co-leader Jatuporn  Prompan. The other involved a guilty verdict against Parinya Maneekhote,  a former policeman who was on Thursday sentenced to 10 years in prison  for carrying grenades into red-shirt protests in April 2010.


-----
Senators pursue reconciliation | Bangkok Post: news

*Senators pursue reconciliation*
Published:  2 Feb 2013 at 16.23Online news: Politics
     A group of 20 elected and appointed senators is  preparing to propose the establishment of an Upper House committee to  help bring about national reconciliation.

     Uthai Thani senator Singchai Thungthong said the proposal would be made to Senate Speaker Nikom Wairatpanich.

 Mr Singchai said the panel would be responsible for studying the  impact of the political rallies and subsequent violence at the  Ratchaprasong intersection in Bangkok in 2010.

 The committee would focus on ways to help people facing criminal  charges arising from the 2010 events and being held in prison without  bail. However, the effort would not extend to the leaders of the  protests, he said.

 Mr Singchai said he believed the Senate panel would be another way to provide justice to all sides.

 He said the committee would also study draft amnesty bills proposed  by various groups. They would include the Nitirat Group of Thammasat  University legal scholars; the red-shirt United Front for Democracy  against dictatorship; Ukrit Mongkolnavin, the chairman of the  Independent National Rule of Law Commission.

----------


## StrontiumDog

There was an interesting rally today...check the link for pix...Sanook.com

à¸¥à¸¹à¸à¸ªà¸¡à¸¢à¸¨à¸à¸³à¹à¸ªà¸·à¹à¸[at]à¹à¸à¸  à¸à¹à¸§à¸ à¸à¸²à¸à¸à¸[at]à¸¥“à¸à¸£à¸£à¸¡à¸¨à¸²à¸ªà¸à¸£à¹ à¸à¸¸à¸¬à¸²à¸¯“

----------


## Butterfly

the reds want an amnesty because they don't want to be exposed for the lying terrorist thieves that they are,

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Amnesty bill not discussed by cabinet meeting Tuesday | Bangkok Post: news
*
*Amnesty bill not discussed by cabinet*
Published:  5 Feb 2013 at 14.46Online news: PoliticsThe draft amnesty bill proposed by Ukrit  Mongkolnavin was not tabled for the cabinet to consider at today's  meeting, Deputy Prime Minister Pongthep Thepkanchana said on Tuesday.

     Mr Ukrit, chairman of the National Rule of Law Commission, said  earlier at a press conference that he had sent a letter to Prime  Minister Yingluck Shinawatra asking the cabinet to quickly consider the  NRLC's draft amnesty bill,  so that it could be tabled for deliberation  by parliament as soon as possible.

 The bill seeks would grant amnesty to people involved in political  rallies from Sept 19, 2006 to May 10, 2011. It comprises six articles  and excludes officials and leaders of political rallies.
 Mr Pongthep said the NRLC's draft was not on today's cabinet agenda.

 On the proposal for a charter amendment referendum, Mr Pongthep said  the government has commissioned Chulalongkorn, Thammasat and  Ramkhamhaeng universities to make a study of the issue.  The study time  frame was 60 days.

 Government spokesman Tossaporn Serirak said under normal procedure a  draft bill of this kind would have to first go first to the Council of  State, the government's legal advisory body, for examination.


-----
Mockery of justice will resolve little - The Nation

burning issue

*Mockery of justice will resolve little*

           Avudh Panananda
The Nation February 5, 2013  1:00 am 
*
Litigation in connection with the red and yellow  protests will likely take more than a decade to complete and nothing  but grief and animosity are likely to emerge from the long-drawn-out  judicial process.*

            If the red and yellow leaders hope for a judicial review to vindicate  their crusades, then they should think again. The ongoing and upcoming  cases have nothing to do with political belief or whether the protests  were justified.

     The prosecution of the yellow shirts can be traced to grudges of the  red shirts. Likewise, the reds are being tried because their yellow  rivals want to destroy them. The country has been mired in this rough  patch since 2005. Until leaders of the rival camps can reach an amicable  settlement to end the war of political colour, damage will continue.

     Even if key yellow leaders, such as Sondhi Limthongkul and Chamlong  Srimuang, and their red rivals, including Jatuporn Promphan and Weng  Tojirakarn, are penalised or acquitted, their fate would be irrelevant  to resolve any political issues. It’ s time for all sides to choose  whether to move on or to dwell in the past.

     This week public prosecutors are due to start trying some 114 "yellows"  over the closure of Bangkok's two airports in 2008. More than 140  defendants face various trials in connection with the street protests  led by the People's Alliance for Democracy. About 84 are slated to avail  themselves of the Justice Ministry's Fund in order to facilitate bail  applications. The ministry has allocated Bt67 million for bailing the  yellow shirts. Last year, it spent more than Bt80 million to bail the  red shirts.

     It is ironic and awkward that the government sees itself as duty-bound  to bail defendants charged with politically-motivated crimes against the  state.

     It is illogical and senseless that relevant parties start talking about  granting an amnesty regardless of the judicial outcome. If politically  motivated cases deserve state-sponsored bail and an amnesty, isn't it  futile to prosecute?

     Since the judiciary will address alleged offences involving each  defendant, the rival camps aren't about to get vindication or  condemnation for their protests. In other words, judicial rulings on  cases involving the red and yellow shirts won't shed light on how and  why political rallies spiralled into violence.

     Prosecuting the yellow shirts for trespassing at Government House in  2008 will not unmask the culprits behind the M-79 attacks which killed  innocent protesters. And trying the red shirts for terrorism in  connection with their rallies has nothing to do with how and why  violence erupted in mid-2010.

     The manners which investigators and prosecutors build up their cases are haphazard and questionable.

     Based on the trial in progress, the court heard expert testimony that  the authorities might have arrested the wrong culprits for arson attacks  at Central World in the aftermath of the Ratchaprasong rallies.

     Prosecutors took more than three years to collect evidence before  slapping light charges against the yellow shirts despite their  disruptive activities at Government House, Parliament and two airports.  Legal scholars should come up with a plan to preempt the mockery of  justice and leave the judiciary out of the political crossfire between  the rival camps.

     Politicians are obliged to stop exploiting the war of political colours for their individual popularity.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Rule of law agency wants amnesty bill - The Nation
*
*Rule of law agency wants amnesty bill*

           Chanikarn Phumhirun,
Khanittha Thepphajorn,
Praphan Chindalertudomdee
The Nation February 6, 2013  1:00 am 
*
The Independent National Rule of Law Commission  has called on the government to grant an amnesty to political protesters  imprisoned between September 2006 and May 2010.*

              The amnesty proposal would apply to protesters arrested during the  period between the 2006 coup and rallies organised by the red-shirt  movement, commission chairman Ukrit Mongkolnavin said yesterday.

     He said the amnesty, if granted, should be a legislative bill so the Parliament could scrutinise the draft provisions.

     Under the commission's proposal, legal absolution should be granted  unconditionally to all protesters, except rally organisers and state  officials in charge of keeping peace at the rallies.

     The commission has forwarded its six-provision draft bill on an amnesty  so the government can vet it and asked for legislative deliberation on  the issue.

     Ukrit said politicians and rally organisers should, as a gesture of  goodwill, declare their intention to not avail themselves of an amnesty  in order to quell any suspicion of them having an ulterior motive.

     He called on the government to make the bill a priority, so the  legislative process can completed and the bill enacted this session. 

     Pheu Thai MP and red-shirt leader Weng Tojirakarn said he was happy to  draw support from the red-shirt leaders to show that they would not  avail themselves of the amnesty. But he still preferred the red-shirts'  version, in the form of an executive decree. 

     Senator Wanchai Sornsiri, however, said he doubted if the government  would have sufficient votes in the Senate to fast-track the bill. "In my  opinion, all controversial draft laws should undergo the normal  procedure in order to allow full scrutiny," he said.

     Wanchai said he supported the idea of granting an amnesty, but he  feared there may be a hidden agenda to absolve those convicted for lese  majeste and graft.

     Pheu Thai MP Phiraphan Phalusuk said coalition and opposition lawmakers  should hold an informal talk in order to reach a common stand before  debating the issue.

-----
Ukrit presents amnesty bill to Yingluck | Bangkok Post: news

*Ukrit presents  amnesty bill to Yingluck*
Published:  6 Feb 2013 at 00.00Newspaper section: News
     Ukrit Mongkolnavin, chairman of the Independent  Committee for Promotion of the Rule of Law, presented an amnesty bill  to the prime minister yesterday.

 
Ukrit: ‘Better than an executive decree’

 Mr Ukrit said his bill will work better than an executive decree in reconciling the colour-coded conflict.

 The bill seeks to grant an amnesty to protesters who took part in  political rallies from Sept 19, 2006 to May 10, 2011. The amnesty would  exclude the protest leaders and law enforcement authorities.

 Mr Ukrit said the amnesty for colour-coded political offenders should  be passed in an act of parliament, not an executive decree, because an  act would allow lawmakers more control over the content of the law.

 The amnesty bill was submitted to Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra  as head of the cabinet yesterday. It will now be sent to the Council of  State.

 Mr Ukrit said he was confident the bill would be passed quickly  should it reach the House. A bill makes more sense than a decree because  the public is more likely to accept a law that has been scrutinised by  politicians, he said.

 A red-shirt faction has called for an executive decree to grant an  amnesty. The group based the call on recommendations made by the Nitirat  group of academics.

 Mr Ukrit said any decree issued by the cabinet would not solve the  political problem and would lead to a dead-end. A decree would allow no  debate by parliamentarians as it would have to be approved as the  wording stood, he said.

 The decree may also not stand up to a constitutionality test, he said.

 Weng Tojirakarn, Pheu Thai Party list MP and a red-shirt co-leader,  however, said the Ukrit bill could be subject to delays if lawmakers  want to debate it.

----------


## StrontiumDog

Meeting gets positive response - The Nation

Amnesty bills

*Meeting gets positive response*

           Khanittha Thepphajorn
The Nation February 8, 2013  1:00 am 
*
Red, yellow-shirt leaders give 'in principle' okay to two proposals*

     Red-shirt and yellow-shirt leaders yesterday held a closed-door meeting  with Deputy House Speaker Charoen Jankomol to discuss two proposed  amnesty bills directed at those involved in the country's ongoing  political conflict - one for protesters, and the other for protest  leaders.

     Although the meeting was unofficial and its results were inconclusive,  attendants praised the atmosphere as one of mature and reasoned  discussion.

     Charoen invited Pheu Thai Party MP Worachai Hema (Samut Prakan), a  representative from the Nitirat group, Pheu Thai MP Korkaew Pikulthong, a  representative of the Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship (DAAD),  and Panthep Puapongpan, a People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD)  representative, for a two-hour meeting on the amnesty bills.

     Worachai said attendants agreed with the idea to issue both the first  amnesty bill, to pardon those who violated the emergency decree, and the  second bill, to pardon protesters as a way of reducing political  conflicts. The bills would allow for the formation of a neutral central  committee to decide who would be pardoned.

     Although yellow-shirt leader Panthep agreed in principle with the two  proposed bills, he said he was only attending the meeting in a personal  capacity and not as a PAD representative.

     He said other PAD leaders would maintain the principle of fighting the  charges filed against them, because they believed the government at the  time had violated their lawful right to protest by ordering the  emergency decree.

     Korkaew said the red shirts wanted to know what the PAD would and would  not accept, adding that the PAD had ruled out an amnesty bill that  whitewashes Thaksin Shinawatra. He said he would report on proposals  discussed yesterday at a February 19 meeting of DAAD leaders and Pheu  Thai Party members.

     Panthep suggested that the amnesty bills should incorporate the  proposal of Nicha Hiranburana, wife of General Romklao Thuwatham, that  pardons only be granted to those who accept their guilt and pledge not  to commit the same offence again. He added that opposition leader  Abhisit Vejjajiva has already accepted Nicha's proposal.

     In related news, Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra yesterday dismissed  a proposal from Ukrit Mongkolnavin, chairman of the  government-appointed Independent National Rule of Law Commission (NRLC),  that amnesty be granted through an act of Parliament. 

     The NRLC wants the government to urgently bring an amnesty bill before Parliament.

     Yingluck said legislation was the duty of Parliament. The government  has so far preferred to consult on the issue with the Council of State,  its legal advisory agency.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Amnesty bill offers prisoners the speedy reprieve they deserve | Bangkok Post: news
*
*Amnesty bill offers prisoners the speedy reprieve they deserve*
Published:  8 Feb 2013 at 00.00Newspaper section: NewsThe bill granting an amnesty for political  offenders, handed to the prime minister this week, promises to resolve  the long-standing colour-coded conflict.

 
Ukrit: House scrutiny of measure could be finished in just 45 days

 In an interview with reporter KING-OUA LAOHONG, the chairman of the  Independent Committee for Promotion of the Rule of Law, Ukrit  Mongkolnavin,who backs the bill, said it is not intended to exonerate  anyone in particular, or advance anyone's self-interest.

 Before going ahead with this amnesty bill, shouldn't we talk it through with the parties in conflict first?

 We have talked for many years but the problems remain. Many people  think we should free those who are in confinement first. We must not  forget the political offenders who are still incarcerated. They are poor  people.

 The core leaders [of the protests] will be excluded from the proposed  amnesty and they will be subject to the judicial process. We also must  not forget that the people facing charges did what the core leaders  couldn't do _ that is, they helped politicians win government seats and  become cabinet ministers.

 So, they deserve help in return.

 But there are various groups which have proposed the amnesty [for  political offenders], namely Nitirat and the United Front for Democracy  against Dictatorship (UDD), right?

 Nitirat proposed the amnesty via a charter amendment and the  government can't do much about it except take up the issue for  consideration.

 It would be a very slow process, and there is no telling when it will finish.

 The UDD, on the other hand, is pressing for the amnesty by means of  an executive decree, which needs vetting by the Council of State.  [Eventually] it will require royal endorsement.

 This, too, will not be quick and some people might think the decree  is being stalled. Then the Constitutional Court might be asked to  interpret the decree's constitutionality. The decree, once issued,  cannot be reviewed.

 With a bill, it is possible to rush it through in three straight  readings. The good thing is that once a parliament panel is formed its  scrutiny can be wrapped up in 1-2 days. In all, we can finish everything  in 45 days.

 We want the amnesty issue settled in parliament. But it must not be an imposition on anyone.

 I believe if the government is committed to making the amnesty a  reality, we can see [the bill passed into law] before the current  legislative session expires on April 19.

 Some people are curious to know whether the amnesty bill will extend its reach to those facing terrorism charges as well?

 The bill grants an amnesty only to political offenders.

 What do you say to people who call you a red-shirt lawyer serving the government?

 It's up to them. Let us judge from one's deeds. The truth is the  truth. Our committee listened to all sides and collected information  across the colour-coded divide. When we worked, the government could not  order us around.

 The committee has been involved in the study of problems in the far  South and the referendum on charter amendments. There are reports you  receive directives from former premier Thaksin Shinawatra. Is that true?

 The question I must ask in return is who could possibly order me around?

 Thaksin was once my student. I used to teach law at the police cadet  school [Thaksin's alma mater]. I've never met Thaksin but someone once  put a call through for me to speak to him. We talked about health and  life in general.

 I've been parliament president five times and I've never gone to meet any prime minister. They came to me instead.

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ He was once your student, but you never met him.....

Errr. What?

----------


## Tom Sawyer

Must be bad translation - probably said he was once a student at my academy et al

----------


## hazz

In the uk, lectures to a large group of a hundred or more students and are then followed up with tutorials involving all of the relivent departmental teaching staff in groups of 4-6 students. In this environment the chap giving the lecture could justifiably regar him self as having many students the greater majority of which he never meets.

May be some places in Thailand use the same system

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Red-yellow talks backed - The Nation
*
*Red-yellow talks backed*

           Khanittha Thepphajorn
The Nation February 9, 2013  1:00 am 
*
The Independent National Rule of Law Commission  has voiced support for a dialogue between the red and yellow shirts,  leading to amnesty in connection with the political mayhem.*

            "I agree that the parties concerned should consult one another as a way  to lessen the political conflict," commission chairman Ukrit  Mongkolnavin said yesterday. He said should both sides find common  ground on the amnesty issue, it would help speed up the legislative  process to rescue those found to have violated the emergency law. 

     Senator Kamnoon Sidhisamarn said he understood the parties concerned  had agreed to the enactment of two amnesty legislations. He said one  legislation would apply to offenders of the emergency law while the  other would be for offenders of the Internal Security Act.

     The remaining contentious issue was whether to grant amnesty to  criminal offenders such as rally organisers and fugitive former PM  Thaksin Shinawatra, he said.

     He also said the draft provisions should be clearly written on what an  amnesty would entail in order to avoid confusion in enforcing the legal  absolution.

-----
Red, yellow shirts agree on amnesty | Bangkok Post: news

*Arch-enemies reach deal on amnesty*

*Core UDD and PAD leaders pitch two bills*
Published:  9 Feb 2013 at 01.11Online news: Politics
       Members of the red- and yellow-shirt political  camps have reached an agreement to press ahead with a pair of political  amnesty bills.

     Pheu Thai Party list MP and red-shirt United Front for Democracy  against Dictatorship (UDD) core leader Korkaew Pikulthong, and Parnthep  Pourpongpan, a core member and spokesman for the yellow-shirt People's  Alliance for Democracy (PAD) met at parliament on Thursday at the  invitation of deputy House speaker Charoen Chankomol.

 The meeting was revealed Friday by the two leaders of the rival colour-coded groups.

 They reached an initial agreement to issue two amnesty bills.

 
Korkaew (left): "Thaksin may be excluded." Parnthep: "Rule of law must stand."

  The first bill involves the rank-and-file protesters who violated the  emergency decree declared during the political protests five years ago,  and the second bill would set up a committee to decide if anyone else  should be granted amnesty.

 Mr Parnthep said on his Facebook page Friday that Mr Charoen asked  him about his views on an amnesty bill proposed by the Independent  Committee for Promotion of the Rule of Law, chaired by Ukrit  Mongkolnavin.

 The bill seeks to grant amnesty to protesters who took part in the  political rallies from Sept 19, 2006 to May 10, 2011. Mr Parnthep said  the bill also covers the PAD so he felt the need to clarify his position  on the amnesty issue to avoid any conflict outside of parliament after  the bill reaches the House.

 He also consulted with PAD core leader Sondhi Limthongkul and PAD lawyer Suwat Apaipak before deciding to attend the meeting.

 Pheu Thai MP for Samut Prakan Worachai Hema, another red-shirt  co-leader, and Wirapat Pariyawong, a public law expert, were also  present at the meeting.

 Mr Parnthep said he emphasised the PAD's stance that the rule of law  must be upheld and those who broke the law must be punished. For those  who were not guilty of crimes, there would be no need to grant them  amnesty, he said.

 He added that all stakeholders should get a voice in the amnesty,  including the Democrat Party, the Pheu Thai Party and the wife of Gen  Romklao Thuwatham — an army officer killed during the 2010 political  violence.

 Mr Parnthep said he agreed that the amnesty bill should follow the recommendations made by Mrs Nicha, Gen Romklao's wife.

 She had proposed that an amnesty bill must not cover criminal offenders or those implicated in lese majeste cases.

 The government must not lead the public to believe that an amnesty is  reconciliation, she had also said. An amnesty would only be part of the  effort aimed at national reconciliation.

 Mr Parnthep said, however, Mr Korkaew proposed that the amnesty bill should cover additional groups of people.

 The meeting then agreed to propose two separate bills.

 The first bill would follow Mrs Nicha's proposal and the second bill would scrutinise other candidates for amnesty.

 However, Mr Parnthep said, he told the meeting that the PAD would not  join any committee set up under the bill because the PAD does not want  to be used as a tool to probe amnesty claims.

 According to Mr Parnthep, Mr Charoen said he will invite  representatives from the government and the opposition to discuss the  possibility of drafting the two amnesty bills.

 Everyone would be given a chance to review the bills if they are drafted, he said.

 Mr Korkaew said the meeting was only to discuss the amnesty bill issue.

 The proposals from the UDD are different from those of the Nitirat group, which call for a blanket amnesty, Mr Korkaew said.

 The UDD has proposed that the amnesty cover two groups of political  offenders. The first group would comprise the rank-and-file protesters  who violated the emergency decree. The UDD says they should be granted  amnesty straight away.

 The other group would comprise others who would be scrutinised by a  committee to figure out who among them were protest leaders or  instigators.

 Mr Korkaew said the meeting also discussed the possibility of  excluding deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra from the amnesty  process.

 "The outcome of the meeting has yet to represent [the opinions of] the entire group," Mr Korkaew said.

 Mr Charoen said parliament could help both sides reach a resolution,  adding that parliament would draft the bills to present to Pheu Thai and  Democrat MPs for approval before resubmitting them to the House during  this session.

 He said he had now sought opinions from the PAD, UDD and the Democrats.

 Representatives from Pheu Thai and former Pitak Siam leader Boonlert  Kaewprasit will be asked shortly to share their opinions, Mr Charoen  said.

 He said if all sides manage to find a common position on the issue, any parliamentary process that follows should be swift.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Amnesty 'for reds, not for Thaksin' - The Nation
*
*Amnesty 'for reds, not for Thaksin'*

           The Nation on Sunday February 10, 2013  1:00 am 
*
Panthongtae says ousted PM wants Abhisit to stop stalling efforts for reconciliation*

                Former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra is pushing for an amnesty bill  for the sake of ordinary red shirts, and not for himself, his son said  yesterday.

     Panthongtae Shinawatra, son of the ousted and fugitive former PM,  posted a message on his Facebook page that Thaksin's move would benefit  all sides, particularly ordinary red-shirt protesters facing legal  trouble for taking part in the 2010 political unrest.

     He said Thaksin urged opposition leader Abhisit Vejjajiva to stop  stalling the move and to review his own conduct while considering the  benefit to society as a whole by helping the push for an amnesty.

     "Former prime minister Abhisit should stop worrying about [Thaksin] and  focus on keeping his word about supporting amnesty for ordinary  people," Panthongtae said in his Facebook message.

     His father was still concerned about ordinary protesters affected by  the political unrest and keen for them to be "healed", particularly  relatives of those who had been killed and the thousands still facing  charges related to the unrest.

     "They deserve to be granted amnesty," Panthongtae stated.

     He said Thaksin called for "sincerity" from Abhisit in handling the  issue, adding that this would be a test of his character and prove he  was not just good at talking.

     Thaksin, who has been in self-exile overseas to avoid going to jail for  abuse of power at home, yesterday phoned veteran politician Suwat  Liptapanlop, who turned 58. 

     The ex-premier said that he hoped Suwat would be "lucky in all matters", according to a source familiar with the matter.

     Suwat yesterday greeted many politicians from the government and  opposition parties, including Abhisit and Prime Minister Yingluck  Shinawatra, at his Bangkok home in Rajvithi.

     In a related development, Pheu Thai deputy spokesperson Jirayu Huangsab  said the party had yet to officially meet and discuss the issue of an  amnesty bill. 

     There had been some informal discussions on how Thailand should proceed  and achieve reconciliation. This, he said, would have to involve  dialogue with all stakeholders.

     He urged people to tolerate and listen to people with differing views.

     Meanwhile, the opposition Democrats said the party was willing to  endorse an amnesty bill that would cover those who had not committed  criminal offences or corruption, but the court must proceed on those two  types of offences and adjudicate.

     Chavanond Intarakomalyasut, spokesperson of the Democrats, said at a  press conference yesterday that in reaction to what first deputy House  Speaker Charoen Jankomol had said earlier, the party was willing to seek  a solution for the country with others and support an amnesty bill that  would cover ordinary protesters. This should cover those who violated  the emergency decree as well as the Internal Security Act.

     But he said the party opposed granting amnesty to those accused and  convicted of physical assault and corruption. He said those being  granted amnesty should be educated and made to understand that they  should not violate the emergency decree and the Internal Security Act  again, otherwise the problem would resurface.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Experts hose down hopes for amnesty | Bangkok Post: news
*
*Experts hose down hopes for amnesty*

*'Secret' talks dismissed as trivial*
Published: 10 Feb 2013 at 00.00Newspaper section: News
     Political observers have dismissed Thursday's  closed-door talks between red and yellow shirt leaders as trivial,  saying the meeting made little headway towards achieving bipartisan  support for political amnesty.

     The two sides still have key differences of opinion on the issue that could make an amnesty deal impossible, they say.

 Pheu Thai Party list-MP and red shirt United Front for Democracy  against Dictatorship (UDD) core leader Korkaew Pikulthong met Parnthep  Pourpongpan, spokesman for the yellow shirt People's Alliance for  Democracy (PAD), at parliament on Thursday.

 The "secret" meeting, made public on Friday, was arranged by deputy  House speaker Charoen Chankomol to discuss an amnesty deal for  convictions stemming from political protests since the Sept 19, 2006  coup.

 The pair reached an initial agreement to issue an amnesty bill for  rank and file protesters who violated the emergency decree. A separate  bill would set up a committee to decide if anyone else, namely protest  leaders, should be granted amnesty.

 Somchai Srisutthiyakorn, chairman of a Political Development Council  planning committee, said that while the talks were positive, both camps  were still divided on the details of the amnesty bills.

 Both sides still want someone to be held accountable for recent political violence, he said.

 Mr Somchai also noted that both Mr Korkaew and Mr Parnthep were not  the ultimate leaders of each camp, so their stance can not be taken to  represent all of their supporters.

 "The red shirts consist of several factions with different views. I  don't think Mr Korkaew could convince other key red shirt leaders such  as Weng Tojirakarn, Jatuporn Prompan, and the right and left wing red  shirt supporters, to agree with him [on the amnesty bill]," Mr Somchai  said.

 Sombat Thamrongthanyawong, president of the National Institute of  Development Administration, said the talks did succeed in building trust  between the two sides.

 He said a lack of trust has been a major obstacle to achieving peace  between the two camps, but hinted that the meeting may have been more  about appeasing their support base than a genuine attempt at  reconciliation. He said political groups opposing an amnesty stand to  lose support.

 Mr Sombat said participants in political gatherings should be spared  punishment while protest leaders found guilty of crimes must be brought  to justice. "If an amnesty had been considered along these lines, the  issue would have been laid to rest a long time ago," he said.

 Democrat MP for Phatthalung, Nipit Intarasombat, said Saturday his  party supported the idea of granting amnesties to people arrested during  political rallies.

 The party already has a draft amnesty bill ready to submit to parliament.

 The bill aims to exonerate protesters from the red and yellow camps  who violated the emergency decree, but it would not cover those who  committed criminal offences against people or destroyed public and  private property.

 Protest leaders who instigated unrest must be punished, Mr Nipit said.

 Green Politics group coordinator Suriyasai Katasila, a leading member  of the yellow shirts during its street demonstrations, wrote on his  Facebook page Saturday that instead of an amnesty, the proper first step  towards reconciliation would be for all involved to enter the judicial  process and admit fault.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Democrats firm in opposition to blanket amnesty, Abhisit says - The Nation
*
*Democrats firm in opposition to blanket amnesty, Abhisit says*

           The Nation February 11, 2013  1:00 am 
 

*The Democrat Party will not waver in its  resistance to a sweeping pardon for political protesters even if it has  to go it alone, the party leader said yesterday.*

                "I don't think, however, that the Democrats will be isolated or kept  out of the ongoing talks on amnesty," Abhisit Vejjajiva said.

     Last week's secret meeting on amnesty strategy arranged by Deputy House  Speaker Charoen Chankomol was not intended as a snub against the party,  he said.

     The main opposition party's own amnesty proposal was very clear and  consistent - leniency should be reserved for violators of the emergency  decree, he said. Those rally organisers involved in instigating arson  attacks, violence, firings at crowds and the killing of people, as well  as graft, should not be covered, he said.

     The Democrats want the government to explain whether its proposal for a  pardon was a pretext to rescue former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra  from his self-imposed exile abroad, he said.

     If the government is sincere about clemency only for political  protesters, then it should demonstrate this by abandoning the four bills  on amnesty and reconciliation that were designed to save Thaksin, he  said.

     The amnesty bill should contain clear, simple and straightforward  provisions on protesters and not cover rally organisers, he said.

     The call to set up a panel to review which organisers were entitled to mercy would lead to arbitrary decisions, he added.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Amnesty shouldn't cover my father's assassin, MP says - The Nation
*
*Amnesty shouldn't cover my father's assassin, MP says*

           Prapasri Osathanon,
Khanittha Thepphajorn
The Nation February 13, 2013  1:00 am 
 

*Pheu Thai party list MP Kattiya Sawasdipol, who  lost her father, Maj Gen  Khattiya Sawasdipol, during the political  rally in 2010, said yesterday that whoever shot dead her father intended  to kill him and could not be pardoned as part of an amnesty bill.*

                Kattiya said her father did not die  during the dispersal of protesters but as a result of premeditated  murder. Whoever committed the offence must face legal action.

     She agreed, however, with the latest suggestion between the red and  yellow shirts to issue two amnesty bills - one of which would pardon  protesters who broke the security laws - because she believed they had  joined political rallies with good intent.

     Meanwhile, Democrat party list MP Trairong Suwankhiri admitted he had  discussed the amnesty bills with Deputy House Speaker Charoen Chankomol,  and he had already reported to Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva  and Democrat Party adviser Banyat Bantadthan about the talks.

     He said he and Charoen broached two issues: first, to pardon those who  committed security law breaches, which he believed every party agreed  with; and second, to set up a committee to decide which particular  individuals should be pardoned. He said it was now up to the party to  decide on the matter.

     Charoen said he did not take orders from anyone as he had initiated the  calling of a meeting between the red and yellow shirts and political  parties to discuss drafting amnesty bills. He said he had no ulterior  motive but only wanted to be a coordinator for all parties to bring  about reconciliation efforts so the country could achieve peace.

     He said if both the Pheu Thai and the Democrat parties agreed on the  amnesty, he would invite two members from each party to take part in  drafting a bill and tabling it in Parliament.

----------


## StrontiumDog

^ Agree with her, but who was it that ordered it?

----------


## Tom Sawyer

^
Neither should be pardoned - the trigger man and the big boss behind the assassination.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Critics slam blanket amnesty bill | Bangkok Post: news
*
*Critics slam blanket amnesty bill*
Published: 23 Feb 2013 at 00.00Newspaper section: News
     An amnesty bill proposed by the Independent  Committee for Promotion of the Rule of Law has been criticised for its  "wholesale" approach to pardoning political offenders.

 
Nicha: Seeking to uncover the truth

 Democrat Party-list MP Chamni Sakdiset criticised the bill, which was  put forward by committee chairman Ukrit Mongkolnavin earlier this year,  during an amnesty seminar at parliament yesterday.

 He said the bill sought to "grant a blanket amnesty that ignored the complexities" of the situation.

 The bill would grant amnesty to protesters who took part in political rallies from Sept 19, 2006 to May 10, 2011.

 The amnesty would not include protest leaders and law enforcement authorities.

 But the bill needs to be revised, Mr Chamni said, or else it would be met with resistance when presented to parliament.

 He said the wholesale amnesty was not selective about the parties  that stand to benefit from it. Although it would not cover protest  leaders, the range of the amnesty is too broad.

 Most participants at yesterday's seminar said they favoured the  recommendations put forward in a report on the 2010 political violence  issued by the now-defunct Truth for Reconciliation Commission (TRC).

 Nicha Hirunburana Thuwatham, the widow of Gen Romklao Thuwatham - an  army officer killed during the 2010 unrest - said reconciliation must  begin by finding the truth before the judicial process can take its  course.

 This should be followed by compensating damaged parties. An amnesty  can only come after this has occurred, she said. She said the government  had declared reconciliation as part of the national agenda, but had  failed to implement the TRC recommendations that were presented to the  government in September.

 Mrs Nicha stressed that an amnesty should be granted to those who did  not commit criminal and lese majeste offences during political  protests.

 But she said an amnesty would never be possible as long as the truth behind the 2010 unrest remains hidden.

 Banjerd Singkhaneti, dean of the Graduate School of Law at the  National Institute of Development Administration, said the five-year  amnesty period proposed by the Ukrit panel was too long. He said that  timeframe involved many complicated incidents, making it difficult to  identify who should be granted amnesty.

 Mr Banjerd also backed the TRC recommendations, which stress the need to address the root cause of hostility.

 Parnthep Pourpongpan, spokesman for the yellow-shirt People's  Alliance for Democracy, said his group disagreed with efforts to  whitewash criminal offenders or those implicated in corruption.

 He agreed with the TRC recommendation that offenders must accept the legal process.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Pheu Thai changes its focus - The Nation
*
*Pheu Thai changes its focus*

           Khanittha Thepphajorn,
Prapasri Osathanon,
Anapat Deechuay
The Nation March 7, 2013  1:00 am 
*
Now that the Bangkok gubernatorial race is over, Pheu Thai MPs have stepped up their mission to push for amnesty laws.*

                Some 21 Pheu Thai MPs said yesterday that they would submit an amnesty  bill to House Speaker Somsak Kiartsuranon this afternoon. According to  this draft, amnesty should cover everybody involved in political rallies  from September 19, 2006 to May 10, 2011, which marked the end of the  extended red-shirt protest.

    The content of the proposal was mainly in line with previous versions  proposed by the red shirts, the January 29 Front, the  government-appointed National Rule of Law Commission along with points  discussed by red and yellow-shirt leaders during meetings with Deputy  House Speaker Charoen Jankomol.

    Also yesterday, Charoen - who hails from the Pheu Thai Party - vowed to  invite more stakeholders to the discussion as proposed by the yellow  shirts.

    People's Alliance for Democracy spokesman, Parnthep Puapongphan, handed  a letter over to Charoen yesterday asking him to invite more people to  join the discussion on amnesty law. The letter suggested that the  anti-government Pitak Siam group; people affected by the political  turmoil; Nicha Hiranburana, wife of late Colonel Romklao Thuwatham who  was killed during the political rally; as well as representatives from  the Truth for Reconciliation Commission of Thailand (TRCT) be invited to  join.

    The PAD spokesman also said that the draft gleaned from this meeting  should not be amended before it is submitted to Parliament, and the  Reconciliation Bill already submitted should be withdrawn.

    Charoen, meanwhile, has issued an invitation to Pheu Thai Party, the  red shirts, People's Alliance for Democracy and Democrat Party to meet  up and further discuss the amnesty law on Monday.

    The invite has been accepted by the red shirts and Pheu Thai, but  turned down by the Democrats because party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva  believes this will not result in reconciliation, but will instead open  the door for some groups to push the law through no matter what.

    He said that as long as the Reconciliation Bill handed to Parliament  last year is not withdrawn, rifts and chaos would continue.

    Former Pitak Siam leader Boonlert Kaewprasit and ex-TRCT chairman Kanit  na Nakorn also refused to join the talks yesterday, though Payao Payao  Akkahad, mother of paramedic Kamolkade who died during the turmoil, said  she backed the law fully.

    While the proposed amnesty law is focusing on granting amnesty to those  involved in political rallies and those who violated either the  Internal Security Act or emergency decree, the Reconciliation Bill  covers political movements dating back to before 2006 so politicians can  also benefit.

    Charoen said that last month he had discussed the issue with  representatives of the four groups, though some groups denied their  representatives were present.

    At this meeting, he claims to have come up with the idea of two  separate amnesty laws: one for protesters who violated the emergency  decree and the other for protest leaders.

    He said yesterday that he would make preparations to invite more  stakeholders as proposed by Parnthep and would also invite military  officers who worked in the protest-control operations. However, he  admitted that he did not know if the meeting would yield any results.

-----
Amnesty Law back on Pheu Thai party's agenda - The Nation

*Amnesty Law back on Pheu Thai party's agenda*

           Attayuth Bootsripoom
Attayuth@nationgroup.com March 7, 2013  1:00 am 
*
After being put on the back-burner for the gubernatorial race, the heat of political conflicts is set to flare up again.*

                One issue that coalition-leader Pheu Thai paused over, for fear it  would affect its gubernatorial candidate, was finding a solution to the  calls for an amnesty law.

    Before the pause, three proposals for an amnesty law had been floated,  by the 29 January United Front, the Democratic Alliance Against  Dictatorship (DAAD) and the Independent National Rule of Law Commission.  The proposed drafts were sent to the Council of State for  consideration.

    So far, the Council of State, which is the government's legal advisory  body, has not come up with any suggestions. Suggestions are expected  soon, presuming Pheu Thai is not just seeking to buy time.

    Moreover, Deputy House Speaker Charoen Chankomol has also invited  representatives of all sides to discussions on ways to bring about  reconciliation. Following the first meeting, Charoen proposed two bills.  The first bill would absolve demonstrators who violated the 2010  emergency decree. The second bill would seek to end political conflicts  by absolving leaders of the 2010 protests.

    Charoen has renewed his efforts by inviting representatives of Pheu  Thai, the Democrats, the yellow shirts and the red-shirts to a meeting  on Monday. So far, Pheu Thai and the red-shirt movement have agreed to  attend, but the Democrats and yellow shirts turned down the invitation.

    The Democrat Party has insisted on its stand that those in violation of  the penal code and the lese majeste law and those who were guilty of  corruption should not be absolved. The Democrats also fear being  deceived into supporting an amnesty bill that could be amended during  vetting to absolve red-shirt leaders as well.

    The People's Alliance for Democracy said it would send a letter to  affirm its stand to Charoen without taking part in a meeting.

    Moreover, the Democrat and PAD leaders believe they have done nothing  wrong and would thus be able to defend themselves in court without the  need of an amnesty law.

    In its latest move, the red-shirt movement is preparing to propose two  more bills. One would seek amnesty for violators of the emergency decree  while the other would seek to end political conflicts or would be  related to protest leaders. As such, the two bills would be similar to  Charoen's proposals. The red shirts are set to propose the bills despite  having already proposed a draft amnesty law.

    The question is, why do the red-shirt leaders need to rush to push for  amnesty now, when the violators of the emergency decree have already  been freed? Red-shirt leader Jatuporn Promphan has himself said that  only those who violated the Penal Code are still in jail.

    Moreover, the government apparently does not want to touch Article 112 -  the lese majeste law - which the January 29 United Front wants to  amend. As a result, the two bills proposed by the red-shirt movement  would benefit no one.

    So, the goal of the red-shirt leaders is definitely the passage of the  second bill, because all leaders of the protesters would benefit by it.  The cases against them have progressed significantly and, if the court  finds them guilty, they will be sent to jail.

    All these conditions make it hard to view the red-shirt leaders' intentions in any other light.

    It seems they dare not seek amnesty for themselves right away, so they  must first seek amnesty for the general protesters, and only then push  their own case.

    However, Pheu Thai will find it difficult to pass an amnesty bill that  benefits the red-shirt leadership, because of the strong opposition this  would meet from the other side. If Pheu Thai uses its majority to push  for amnesty for the protest leaders, it would not be able to end  political conflicts in line with the spirit of the bill.

    So, Pheu Thai needs to cite general protesters as an excuse to seek amnesty for the leaders.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Amnesty bill submitted to House speaker | Bangkok Post: breakingnews
*
*Amnesty bill submitted to Speaker*
Published:  7 Mar 2013 at 14.35Online news:Draft legislation for a broad amnesty for  people facing politically related charges, signed by 42 MPs of the Pheu  Thai Party led by Worachai Hema, was submitted to House Speaker Somsak  Kiatsuranont on Thursday.

     Mr Worachai, a Samut Prakan MP, said the bill has seven articles.  The gist of it was in Article 3, which seeks to clear all people  involved in political rallies from Sept 19, 2006 to May 10, 2011 of any  wrongdoing.

 However, this would not cover leaders of the rallies or those with  the authority to order actions during that period,  to prevent  allegations the proposed legislation was intended to help former prime  minister Thaksin Shinawatra and some other people in particular, he  said.

 He said the intention was to help people who found themselves victims  of the political violence the courts had ruled was not terrorism.

 The Samut Prakan MP said he wanted the House speaker to put the bill  on the House agenda as soon as possible. He asked the Democrat Party not  to obstruct it for the sake of peace.

 Mr Somsak expected the verification of the bill would take one week.   However, it was for the House to decide when to bring it up for  deliberation.

 He said the House would also decide whether to withdraw the four  reconciliation bills that had not been brought up for consideration, as  demanded by the opposition Democrat Party.

 "I think the conflict continues because there have been no  talks. This matter has nothing to do with anyone living abroad.  It concerns people living in this country," Mr Somsak said.

----------


## StrontiumDog

*An issue that could ignite Bangkok again - The Nation
*
*An issue that could ignite Bangkok again*

           Avudh Panananda
The Nation March 8, 2013  1:00 am 
*
Should the rival camps decide to throw caution to the wind, Thailand may once again be mired in street protests and chaos.*

                As the reds and their rival  yellow-shirts step up their activities in order to push for their  respective versions of amnesty, they should exercise utmost restraint so  as to avoid holding the country hostage.

    In the coming months, the amnesty issue will become a hot talking point. Whether  the debate leads to reconciliation or a new round of political violence  hinges on how much the opposing sides are willing to forego vested  interests.

     On Wednesday, the People's Alliance for Democracy issued a statement,  saying it will never condone granting amnesty to criminals and graft  offenders. It would, however, support legal absolution to the offenders  of emergency and internal security laws.

     On the same day, the red shirts announced that they would push for  amnesty legislation on criminal violations committed in connection with  street protests from 2006 to 2011.

     Even before kicking-off the debate, the red and yellow shirts have a  conflicting take on what the amnesty legislation should entail.

     The red-yellow struggle on amnesty could be a long-drawn-out fight in the legislature as well as in various public forums.

     From the perspective of the yellow shirts, amnesty is a pretext for the  eventual rescue of fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra  from his legal predicament. This is the reason why amnesty, if granted,  should not cover the graft conviction involving Thaksin.

     The yellow shirts' bottomline is that Thaksin must show remorse by  serving at least part of his two-year jail term before discussing his  pardon.

     The anti-Thaksin camp also suspects that the red shirts would extend  the amnesty to cover those convicted of offending the monarchy.

     For opponents of Thaksin, the root of Thailand's political malady is  populism, which they see as a form of vote buying used as a springboard  to plunder the country.

     Until the political system has been cleansed of populism, the yellow  shirts are not prepared to strike a deal with the red shirts in relation  to amnesty.

     In fact, they have threatened to resume street protests if the reds bring about amnesty legislation on criminal violations.

     From the point of view of the reds, amnesty has far-reaching consequences on many levels.

     The red leaders, particularly chairwoman Thida Thavornseth, view  amnesty as a goal essential for them to achieve. The reds do not see  Thaksin as a political outcast, but a victim of the 2006 coup who  deserves to be rescued.

     Thida and her fellow leaders are under pressure from the ranks to end  the legal wrangling involving the reds in a speedy manner.

     In January, the reds' leadership tried but failed to convince the  government to issue an amnesty decree. This led them to try the  legislative channel. Thida and other reds made a calculated move to push  for amnesty legislation despite the risk of a head-on collision with  the yellow shirts and the Democrats.

     The reds managed to sway more than 20 Pheu Thai MPs to sponsor their seven-provision amnesty draft.

     At this juncture, it is almost certain that the ruling party will not  adopt a formal stand on the draft, though it would allow its MPs a free  vote on the matter.

     The reds are hoping to apply public pressure on MPs and senators to support their draft.

     Though Thaksin's blessings are necessary before the amnesty debate goes  to the House floor, but his intervention could automatically trigger a  new round of confrontation between his opponents and supporters.

-----
'No support'so far to bail out detained Reds - The Nation

*'No support'so far to bail out detained Reds*

           Khanittha Thepphajorn 
The Nation March 8, 2013  1:00 am 
 
House Speaker Somsak Kiatsuranont is interviewed  about the 42 Pheu Thai MPs led by Worachai Haema who have submitted  their proposed amnesty law.

*Pheu Thai MPs have been slow in gathering  signatures to help bail out the detained red-shirt supporters, MP  Sangiam Samranrat said yesterday.*

            He explained that he had asked House Speaker Somsak Kiatsuranont and  Pheu Thai MPs to put their names down on a petition to bail out  red-shirt protesters detained in relation to the 2010 rally. The  deadline was Wednesday, but Somsak had been silent about the signatures,  he said. 

     The MP went on to say that he will submit a letter to Pheu Thai Party  about the issue and will also get ready to stage a small rally outside  Parliament calling for action. 

     Separately, 42 Pheu Thai MPs led by Worachai Haema submitted their  version of the amnesty law to Somsak, who said he would verify the names  and add the draft to the parliamentary agenda. 

     The proposal said amnesty would be granted to protesters supporting all  groups, including police and military officers, but excluding leaders. 

     After Somsak received the document from the MPs, his team  (@KhunKhonSomsak) posted a message on Twitter and the Parliament's  Facebook page asking: "Do you agree with the passing of the Amnesty  Act?"

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Amnesty bill 'dead on arrival' | Bangkok Post: news
*
*Critics blast amnesty bill*

*PAD plans to raise legal challenge to red-shirt bid * 
Published:  8 Mar 2013 at 00.00Newspaper section: News
     Opposition critics and academics are sceptical  that a new amnesty bill, supported by 42 red-shirt MPs, will ever be  passed into law.



 Worachai Hema, Pheu Thai Party MP for Samut Prakan and leader of the  red-shirt MPs supporting the bill, presented the bill to House Speaker  Somsak Kiatsuranont at parliament Thursday.

 He insisted the proposed amnesty would not cover ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra or protest leaders.

 The bill is one of eight seeking to grant an amnesty to political offenders.

 Mr Worachai said it aims to absolve "innocent people across the  political divide, military personnel and authorities" who are facing  legal charges or are in prison as a result of political violence since  the Sept 19, 2006, coup until May 10, 2011.

 Mr Worachai said the bill has nothing to do with the Pheu Thai Party.

 "Since it will not help Thaksin return home as a free man, [the  opposition] Democrat Party should not stand in the way of aiding people  in distress," he said.

 "It's pointless keeping our red-shirt folks in jail now that the country is peaceful and calm."

 Karom Polpornklang, a red-shirt lawyer, has said the Worachai bill is  different from other bills in terms of how many people are to be  granted an amnesty and who they are.

 Section 3 of the bill, drafted by red-shirt lawyers, provides an  amnesty to people who were prosecuted for acts or statements that were  construed as contributing to the political conflicts.

 More than 1,000 offenders are expected to be covered by the bill if it is passed into law.

 However, the lawyer said the bill's drafters are open to suggestions  and its coverage could be extended to Pitak Siam rally participants as  well.

 The speaker said yesterday the bill will be checked for any legal  flaws before deciding whether it should be slated in parliament's agenda  alongside four other amnesty bills waiting to be voted on at the first  reading.

 Parliament will also decide if the five bills are too similar in content and should be merged at the first reading vote.

 Mr Somsak dismissed demands by the Democrat Party that the four bills already pending be withdrawn.

 Deputy House Speaker Charoen Chankomol has been sounding out parties  affected by the violence on the design of an amnesty. He says it should  be the product of an inclusive process to ease social conflicts. If and  when all parties can build a consensus around the issue, an amnesty bill  will be drafted, he said.

 Mr Charoen has invited the PAD, the red-shirt UDD, Pheu Thai and the  Democrat Party for talks on the matter, but the Democrats have refused  to join unless the pending bills are withdrawn.

 Democrat leader Abhisit Vejjajiva said the withdrawal of the four  bills would prove the government is not pushing the bills to exonerate  Thaksin.

 Pheu Thai MP for Chiang Rai Samart Kaewmeechai said society remains  split over the amnesty issue. The chances of passing an amnesty bill  without consulting all affected parties are slim.

 People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) spokesman Parnthep Pourpongpan said the PAD rejects the new bill.

 He says it contravenes the constitution by offering a selective amnesty that mainly caters to red shirts.

 The alliance plans to lodge a petition against the constitutionality of the bill.

 Kittisak Prokati, of the faculty of law at Thammasat University, said  the Worachai bill introduces a blanket amnesty that will not teach  society to differentiate right from wrong.

 The bill should include aspects all sides can agree on, such as  granting an amnesty only to those who violated the emergency decrees  imposed during the political violence, he said.

 He said the rights of victims must also be taken into account.

 Trakul Meechai, a political scientist of Chulalongkorn University,  said the latest bill seems to be designed to win favour from Thaksin  despite Mr Worachai's insistence it will not benefit the ousted premier.  "The bill will have no chance of passing," he said.

 "It will only whip up resistance from within and outside parliament. It will deepen cracks in society even more."

----------


## StrontiumDog

*Neizens angry after Parliament Facebook pulls amnesty survey - The Nation
*
*Netizens angry after Parliament Facebook pulls amnesty survey*

           Budsarakham Sinlapalavan
The Nation March 12, 2013  3:38 am 
 

*Neizens angry after Parliament Facebook pulls  amnesty survey  Parliament's Facebook team under House Speaker Somsak Kiatsuranont is  facing howls of protest from the cyber-world for removing an online  survey on an amnesty law after dislikes far outweighed likes.*

                "Why did you delete the voting results? Do you fear the real facts? You should accept the truth," posted Mossiam Mos.

    In the three days from Thursday, when a question was posted on  Parliament's Facebook page asking for comments, to Sunday night when the  question and answers were pulled, there were 2,341 agreeing and 7,455  disagreeing with an amnesty law.

    Social media users criticised the action.

    Ploiiz Pyromancer Meowko: "You should show this poll at all times".

    Joice Manukul: "You should show the poll to make people believe that you are sincere".

    Arcom Thahong: "If you want a result like the result in your mind, you should do research in Red TV".

    Mistertanom Pangpa: "Why did you delete the poll? This is a parliament that's always closed its eyes to people".

    Rung Kha: "I already voted but now I cannot see my vote".

    Auychai Kulpong: "Where is the other 29 poll on social media?"

    Finally the admin page of the "Deep Search Team" posted an explanation:  "A social media monitoring research house posted this question for more  than 30 online media to collect 'deep' information from March 7-10 and  then gather all information for data analysis."

    Noppadon Kannika, director of Abac Poll, commented that this type of  survey is called a "social mentions" survey and is mostly used by the  business sector to gather marketing data or do deep analysis about how  much a product is being mentioned on social media.

    He added that when a social mentions survey was used to measure  political opinion it was difficult to gather data because the majority  of people do not use social media.

    "The online survey was not scientific because it did not choose a representative sample" Noppadon said.

    The admin post said researchers would analyse all posts called "Mention" by age, occupation, education and location.

----------


## StrontiumDog

^

http://www.socialbakers.com/facebook...stics/thailand

*Thailand Facebook Statistics*

Socialbakers     >              Facebook Stats     >              Asia     >     Thailand                                                                                                                         

 

Thailand Facebook statistics.                           

Total Facebook Users             18202320                               

Position in the list             13                               

Penetration of population             27.13%                               

Penetration of online population             124.21%                                               

Facebook monitoring helps to improve your business and social media marketing strategy in every country. Currently, there are *18202320 Facebook users in the Thailand*, which makes it #*13* in the ranking of all Facebook statistics by Country.

----------


## pseudolus

> Penetration of online population 124.21%


Similar to my stats on thaifriendly.com

----------


## Mid

* Thailand: No Amnesty for Rights Abusers      * 
Brad Adams, Asia director        
August 5, 2013

*Proposed Law Would Entrench Culture of Impunity*

_The ruling partys amnesty bill lets both soldiers  and militants responsible for deaths during the 2010 upheaval off the  hook. To ensure justice for the victims of violence and to end  Thailands longstanding culture of impunity, the amnesty bill should  exclude perpetrators of abuses and instead make them accountable for  their crimes.       _ 

 (New York)  A proposed amnesty law before Thailands  parliament should exclude people who ordered or carried out human  rights abuses, Human Rights Watch said today. The Thai government should  affirm that prosecuting those responsible for rights abuses, regardless  of rank or affiliation, is critical to promoting human rights, the rule  of law, and lasting reconciliation in Thailand.

On August 7, 2013, the parliament will begin the first reading of an  amnesty bill proposed by Worachai Hema, a member of parliament from the  ruling Pheu Thai party of Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra.

 The ruling partys amnesty bill lets both soldiers and militants  responsible for deaths during the 2010 upheaval off the hook, said Brad Adams,  Asia director at Human Rights Watch. To ensure justice for the victims  of violence and to end Thailands longstanding culture of impunity, the  amnesty bill should exclude perpetrators of abuses and instead make  them accountable for their crimes.

 Worachais bill broadly promises a full amnesty for all protesters  who have been charged, prosecuted, and convicted for their actions  against the state from the period since the coup that ousted Yinglucks  brother, former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, on September 19,  2006, to May 10, 2011.

 The amnesty would include people whose actions may have affected the  lives and property of others but does not include protest leaders.  Worachai told Human Rights Watch on August 2, 2013, that his bill does  not mention an amnesty for members of the military because not one  soldier has been charged or prosecuted for the political violence from  2006 to 2011.

 From March to May 2010, violent political confrontations took place  between the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD),  popularly known as the Red Shirts, and the government of then-Prime  Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva, in Bangkok and several provinces. According  to the Justice Ministrys Department of Special Investigation (DSI), at  least 98 people lost their lives and more than 2,000 were injured.

 Worachais proposal fails to address the need to hold both military  personnel and elements of the UDD, particularly armed Black Shirt  militants, accountable for violence and serious abuses in 2010.

 A Human Rights Watch report, Descent into Chaos: Thailands 2010 Red Shirt Protests and the Government Crackdown,  concluded that excessive and unnecessary force by the Thai army caused  many deaths and injuries during the 2010 political confrontations. The  security forces were responsible for the majority of deaths and  injuries.

 The high number of casualties  including unarmed demonstrators,  volunteer medics and first responders, reporters, photographers, and  bystanders  resulted in part from the enforcement of live fire zones  around the UDD protest sites in Bangkok, where the army deployed  sharpshooters and snipers. The Department of Special Investigation  announced in September 2012 that the military was responsible for 36  deaths. So far, only nine cases have been submitted to the court for  postmortem inquests. Five victims have been found to have been shot dead  by soldiers acting under orders from the Center for the Resolution of  the Emergency Situation (CRES).

 Successive Thai governments have failed hold the military  accountable, with not a single soldier or official prosecuted for their  actions during the 2010 violence. Shortly after taking office in 2011,  Prime Minister Yingluck publicly vowed that her government would  investigate and prosecute security force personnel responsible for  abuses. But since then, her government has repeatedly announced that  military personnel would not be held responsible for casualties during  the governments crackdown despite overwhelming evidence that soldiers  shot people who posed no threat.

 Despite the Department of Special Investigations findings of the  militarys culpability for 36 deaths, department and police  investigations and inquest rulings show that insufficient efforts have  been made to identify the soldiers and commanding officers responsible  for the shootings. After receiving the inquest results, the department  decided to charge only Abhisit and then-Deputy Prime Minister Suthep  Thaugsuban for the killings. Each has been charged with premeditated  murder on the basis of command responsibility, which allows the  prosecution of superiors for the actions of their subordinates.

 Worachais amnesty bill would provide immunity from prosecution to  elements of the UDD, including Black Shirt militants who were  responsible for deadly armed attacks on soldiers, police, and civilians.  These militants should be investigated, identified, and appropriately  prosecuted. UDD leaders who incited violence with inflammatory speeches  to demonstrators, urging them to carry out arson attacks and looting,  should also be held accountable.

 The status of investigations into alleged crimes by Black Shirt  militants is now unclear, Human Rights Watch said. The Department of  Special Investigation no longer refers to a chart that it had frequently  shown to the media when Abhisit was in power, identifying suspected  Black Shirt militants and linking them with the 2010 violence. The  families of soldiers killed and wounded in the clashes say that they  fear that those responsible will not be prosecuted.

 Against this backdrop, some of the victims families proposed another  bill that specifies which actions will be granted an amnesty. Those who  used violence or committed rights abuses would not be covered in the  families proposed law. The draft legislation would also allow lawsuits  against people or groups who killed people or damaged private property.

 The prime ministers Pheu Thai party and the UDD have declined to  support the families bill. So far, the families have not been able to  obtain the signatures of 20 members of parliament, which is needed for  the bill to be formally presented to the speaker of the House of  Representatives for consideration.

Worachais amnesty bill is an insult to the victims and families of  the 2010 violence, Adams said. It is totally unacceptable that those  who committed serious abuses, including soldiers who pulled the triggers  and commanders who gave the orders, would remain untouchable through an  amnesty.

hrw.org

----------


## mao say dung

^What a joke Mr Brad Adams continues to be. He has been outed as an anti-
Thaksin activist who is on record making unfounded accusations against the Red Shirts and whose organization has demonstrated a unseemly bias in favor of the Democrats. 




> “For the first five year from 2005 onwards both AI and HRW were inactive, silent, and implicitly against the effort to fight this unjust law [lese majeste] and also to help victims of this law. The bottom-line was, in my opinion, that HRW and AI received most of their information from, and followed the views of, a group of local Thai human rights people who are dominated by anti-Thaksin activists. This group are very biased and lack the usual professionalism necessary to uphold human rights principles. They are too politicized and their politics seem to have clouded their views and judgments on human rights issues. Most of them supported the coup and a few senior human rights figures even joined the “tours” organized and financed by the coup regime to explain to the world the necessity of the coup. Their political biases blinded them from seeing the victims of the LM as political prisoners or prisoners of conscience because most of these victims are Thaksin supporters or at least anti-coup regime. Also many of the human rights lawyers became active supporters for the anti-Thaksin, PAD Yellow camp. And even today, these human rights activists and lawyers refuse to provide legal assistance to the poor families of Red Shirts supporters who have been victims of the Abhisit-regimes repressive use of LM laws and who were jailed since the violent crackdown in mid-2010.”


Thongchai Winichakul  Asia Provocateur: Lese Majeste and Thailand's Political Prisoners

Adams' concern here would appear to be with the simple fact that Worachai's amnesty bill DOES NOT propose amnesty for the leaders of either faction, neither for the UDD  nor for those responsible for the crackdown. The culture of impunity Adams so rightly abhors has never included the "ordinary" Thais that this bill aims to release and has always and only given comfort to the elites, which this bill deliberately excludes. Adams' concern is not for impunity as much as it is a simple desire to see as many UDD members punished as possible.

The fact is that Worachai's bill represents a possible problem for relations between PT and the UDD and if it is repressed may bring about an open split between the Reds and the PT and those Reds more concerned with the PT than the UDD.

Red Shirts Put Thaksin, Govt on Notice as Amnesty Bill Heads to Parliament | The Irrawaddy Magazine

----------


## hazz

we all know Ma0; "taksin good" everyone else bad. 

Your like stuck record at times

----------


## mao say dung

Where does it say that... O dyslexic and proud one? I don't mind if you can't write or spell with any accuracy, but reading is essential before making your yellow comments.

----------


## Mid

*Thai parliament passes amnesty bill in first reading*
8 August 2013

           Southeast Asia correspondent Zoe Daniel               Thailand's parliament has passed the  first draft of a controversial amnesty bill that has prompted political  protesters to take to the streets this week.

 
_Thai riot police stand guard next to a demonstration near parliament in Bangkok on August 7, 2013._ 
(Credit:  AFP) 

                                          Thailand's parliament has passed the first draft of a  controversial amnesty bill that has prompted political protesters to  take to the streets this week.

The bill was passed with 300 in favour,  124 against and 14 abstentions. It will now pass to a second reading. 

The bill would clear soldiers and protesters involved in political unrest from 2006 onwards but does not include leaders. 

It's just one of a series of bills that have been put forward. 

Opponents argue it is a ruse by the government to allow Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra's brother Thaksin to return.

He was ousted in a coup in 2006 and lives in self-imposed exile to avoid corruption charges. 

Street  protests to oppose the bill this week have been muted compared to  previous rallies with only a few thousand people attending.

radioaustralia.net.au

----------


## Gerbil

> Opponents argue it is a ruse by the government to allow Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra's brother Thaksin to return.


While it is undisputed that, that is the aim.... It's unclear how this particular bill would move that particular process any further forward?

Also, define 'leaders'. Seems that the red mob had numerous 'leaders' of different factions and local communities. Does this only exclude the half dozen at the top, or the 'local' leaders as well?

----------


## Notnow

It is simple, really. Prosecute and jail the thousands of guilty PAD criminals who are still free, then the amnesty will benefit all.

----------


## gaysexbyproxy

^Ahh...but they are the _good guys_. Fighting for honor and duty, they are.

----------

