#  >  > Living And Legal Affairs In Thailand >  >  > Learn Thai Language >  >  Thai Tone rules

## jimbone

I've create the tone rules for thai...mid, low and high consonants with different endings, tone marks, and such. 

I have it in an excel spreadsheet, which is pretty handy, but have no idea how to do attachments here. So, i've piecemeal added it to this post. If you want the excel file, let me know, or if i can attach, let me know.

            Middle   Consonants  ก จ ฎ ฏ ด ต บ ป อ        Vowel Length   Word Ending   Tone Mark   Tone       Long   None   None   Flat       short   None   None   Low       Long/short   Live   None   Flat       Long/short   Dead   None   Low       Long/short    -----   ก่   Low       Long/short    -----   ฟ้   Falling       Long/short    -----   ส๊   High       Long/short    -----    +   Rising   
            High consonants:  ข ฉ ฐ ถ   ผ ฝ ศ ษ ศ ห       Vowel Length   Word Ending   Tone Mark   Tone       Long   None   None   Rising       short   None   None   Low       Long/short   Live   None   Rising       Long/short   Dead   None   Low       Long/short    -----   ก่   Low       Long/short    -----   ฟ้   Rising   

      Low consonants ค ฆ ง ช ซ ฌ ญ ฑ ฒ   ณ ท ธ น พ ฟ ภ ม ย ร ล ว ฬ ฮ             Vowel Length   Word Ending   Tone Mark   Tone       Long   None   None   Flat       Short   None   None   High       Long/Short   Live   None   Flat       Long   Dead   None   Falling       Short   Dead   None   High       Long/Short    -----   ก่   Falling       Long/Short    -----   ฟ้   High   
      Live Endings: น ง ม ย ว       น   = ณ ญ ร ล ฬ   





      Dead   Endings: ก ด บ   

      ก = ข ค ฆ   


      ด   = ต จ ฎ ฏ ส ศ ษ ถ ฐ ท ธ ฒ ช ซ   
      บ   = ป ฟ ภ ฝ   





      tone mark   Transliteration   Thai   
      ก่   mái eèk   ไม้เอก   
      ฟ้   mái too   ไม้โท   
      ส๊   mái dtrii   ไม้ตรี   
       +   mái jàt-dtà-waa   ไม้จัตวา   


            With ห before these consonants: ย น ล ญ ฬ ง ม ร ว           makes the consonant   a high consonant (with associated tone rules)       



      NOTE: ommited are   the two obsolete consonants: ฃ and    ฅ

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## jimbone

Sorry, the formating didn't work.

Looks like s**t, my apologies

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## Stinky

Dont worry about it :Smile:

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## up2you

thanks for trying The Tones are the bane of my life I find it so hard to hear the difference Am I alone?

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## crazy dog

> thanks for trying The Tones are the bane of my life I find it so hard to hear the difference Am I alone?



Just can't identify Thai's using them at all most of the time, I must be tone deaf.

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## jimbone

I think from a western we don't think about tones except for adding mood (happy, sad, mad, etc), but what i find here, if it's not the right tone, thai's are clueless what the word is. Even my girlfriend doesn't understand me half the time because of the tones...geez

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## Marmite the Dog

I've said it before, but generally Thai only use the rising tone and tend to miss the others out. One  problem foreigners have is that they try too hard with the tones. If you just go with the rising tone and forget the rest, you'll probably be OK, unless you're auditioning to be a newsreader.

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## StrontiumDog

Nice try jimbone and appreciate the effort, but as I can barely read any Thai, I got confused by the above. I need simple, like my brain, before I can grasp it.

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## WhiteLotusLane

Hint: You could do a screen shot of the Excel table. Then include it as an image.




> I think from a western we don't think about tones except for adding mood (happy, sad, mad, etc), but what i find here, if it's not the right tone, thai's are clueless what the word is. Even my girlfriend doesn't understand me half the time because of the tones...geez


As well as questions (rising) and commands/exclamations (falling).  One of the hardest things for Thais learning a Western language is to use tones in questions, or to get to a natural melody in a statement.. Beginners often sound like robots.

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## WhiteLotusLane

So basically, something like this: 




( From thai-language.com )

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## robuzo

> I've said it before, but generally Thai only use the rising tone and tend to miss the others out. One  problem foreigners have is that they try too hard with the tones. If you just go with the rising tone and forget the rest, you'll probably be OK, unless you're auditioning to be a newsreader.


I don't know that "Thai only use the rising tone"- I hear the falling tone, or what I like to refer to as the "emphatic" tone, pretty clearly all the time.  I would agree, although I get a lot of argument about this, that the high and low tones are a lot less distinct than the others.  I also think it is certainly true that foreigners trying to speak Thai tend to overdo the tones- I've noticed that tendency in myself.

I'm probably lucky in that I generally have no trouble hearing the tones and can reproduce them with success usually.  The main problem I have with the tones is reproducing them _spontaneously_, without having to make a conscious effort to recall which to use to get a particular meaning out of a syllable.  The only way to be able to do that is to repeat, repeat, repeat in actual (meaningful) conversation.

The aspect of spoken Thai that drives me crazier than the tones are the consonant sounds.  The vowels themselves are tricky enough, but Thais have a tendency not to enunciate consonants clearly, to the point very often of just dropping them altogether.  After five years of listening, speaking, and sporadically studying Thai, hearing the consonants still gives me a lot of trouble, especially when trying to learn new words from a Thai speaker.

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## Dan

> I've said it before, but generally Thai only use the rising tone and tend to miss the others out.


I don't think that's true at all. It is possible to change other tones to mid-tone in some circumstances (the fa in farang, for example, should be low but comes out mid, though why, I don't know.)




> I also think it is certainly true that foreigners trying to speak Thai tend to overdo the tones- I've noticed that tendency in myself.


Definitely. I sound like a 14-year old boy at times - my voice goes all over the place.




> The aspect of spoken Thai that drives me crazier than the tones are the consonant sounds. The vowels themselves are tricky enough, but Thais have a tendency not to enunciate consonants clearly,


Yes, again. I find the tones impossibly difficult but even more difficult are the บ/ป ด/ต differences and many of the short/long vowel pairs, like ไอ/อาย. I'm absolutely certain that I will never master these.

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## pescator

I am completely tonedeaf, but that hasn`t stopped me from learning the tones.

My advice would be to start off with one syllable words containing long vowels, babystepping 
With long vowels it is much easier to determine what tone you actually hear.
Rising tone on a long vowel in a one syllable word should be quite easy to determine Khaa = leg ขา
Same with falling tone Khaa = kill or price ฆ่า/ค่า
There is no way you can mistake those 2 different tones IMO, especially if they are pronounced right after one another.

Now move on to the slightly more difficult ones, have a thai speaker pronounce them after one another.

Khaa low tone = galangal ข่า
Khaa high tone = to trade ค้า
khaa level/mid tone = ? beats me, regardless we are talking about tones here.

If one is unable to distinguish between the various tones when using this approach, I am afraid there is little hope.

This wont bring you that much further, just build your confidence to a point that you will realize, that YES I CAN hear the difference and tell which one is what in this particular situation anyway.

To eliminate misunderstandings, always use an entire sentense instead of just a single monosyllabic word which can have several if not many meanings depending on the intonation.
The context will usually point the listener in the right direction even though the pronounciation of the tones is less than perfect.

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## thethaireport

For anyone learning Thai but hesitant to dive into reading and writing, I thought I'd share that my speaking ability has accelerated like crazy as a result of learning to read. Once you memorize the alphabet in their correct classes (low/middle/high), reading is pretty simple. Far less exceptions to the rule than English. I don't know what I'm reading 75% of the time, but it has certainly helped my ability to communicate in everyday life!

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## robuzo

> For anyone learning Thai but hesitant to dive into reading and writing, I thought I'd share that my speaking ability has accelerated like crazy as a result of learning to read. Once you memorize the alphabet in their correct classes (low/middle/high), reading is pretty simple. Far less exceptions to the rule than English. I don't know what I'm reading 75% of the time, but it has certainly helped my ability to communicate in everyday life!


Acquiring vocabulary in any language is very difficult if one can't read.

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## thethaireport

[quote=robuzo;1201730]


> Acquiring vocabulary in any language is very difficult if one can't read.


I can't believe how many words I was pronouncing incorrectly.

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## robuzo

[QUOTE=thethaireport;1201815]


> Originally Posted by thethaireport
> 
> 
> 
> Acquiring vocabulary in any language is very difficult if one can't read.
> 
> 
> I can't believe how many words I was pronouncing incorrectly.


I know what you mean, starting with the word "soi".  The transliteration of Thai into roman letters is inconsistent and idiosyncratic to the point of hilarity.

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## English Noodles

> I've said it before, but generally Thai only use the rising tone and tend to miss the others out. One problem foreigners have is that they try too hard with the tones. If you just go with the rising tone and forget the rest, you'll probably be OK, unless you're auditioning to be a newsreader.


What a pile of crap.

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## Marmite the Dog

> What a pile of crap.


The only time I've every heard Thais speak properly is when they're on TV, otherwise their pronunciation is terrible. I stand by what I said, but you being the argumentative twat that you are will argue until you're blue in the face, it still won't change anything.

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## English Noodles

So you say that Thai people in general only use a single tone when speaking Thai, and me disagreeing with you makes me an argumentative twat, okay.

You are completely wrong though.

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## mtone9317

Great posts here. Permit me to add my 1%. Learning Thai is like learning to sing or play, jazz on a wind instrument. There are rising tones, which we call doink and falling tones which we call drop offs, straight tones, vibrato. Learning to play jazz is a lifetime achievement. At one time I had twice the technical ability that Miles Davis had, but his  ability to make 4 measures of music with a few simple notes created a legion of followers (cool jazz). So learning Thai for me is like my learning to play and sing jazz. I can hear the tones, but imitating them takes hours of practice. The problem for us westerners is we want instant results. Sorry folks, it doesn't happen that way

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## mtone9317

I liked Robu's comment that acquiring vocabulary in any language is difficult if you can't read. However, basic conversation only amounts to a couple of thousand words and is an oral tradition. When 5 years olds start to learn how to read their vocab drops dramatically, then they pick it up by the time they are 12>18...IF they have the desire and the intelligence, which is the problem we have in California, we have millions of illegal Mexican immigrants whose parents do not even read their own language and have no real desire to learn English. Most educated Californians can speak basic Mexican Spanish, teachers(1st to 12th) grade, doctors, etc.

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## Marmite the Dog

> So you say that Thai people in general only use a single tone when speaking Thai,


No I didn't.

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## English Noodles

> generally Thai only use the rising tone and tend to miss the others out.


Yes you did.

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## Marmite the Dog

...in addition to the middle tone obviously, as you would have to have a somewhere to rise from.

Are you sure you're not related to Ant?

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## Dan

Sorry, but it's just bollocks to say that Thais only "use" two tones. The fact that you don't hear it doesn't mean that it's not happening.

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## mtone9317

Language interpretation is individual and regional. As a newcomer to New York City i was asked by a person from Boston if I wanted to go to a "potty". No, I said I was potty trained when I was three. Tele personalities tend to have their own style. I like to listen to Tai Oratai when she talks, her Thai is so musical. Then there are young Thai Laos friends of mine in the US whose language is anything but musical, pretty flat. I think it's best to learn Central Thai, that's my goal anyway.

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## Dan

> I liked Robu's comment that acquiring vocabulary in any language is difficult if you can't read.


For some of us, it's more or less essential. Often when I speak Thai, I'm effectively reading from an internal script; I can see the words in my mind which I then read out loud. Different people have different styles but I'm lucky that I learn like this because it's an enormous help with getting my tones right. Although I screw them up, I at least know what I should be saying.

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## Marmite the Dog

> Sorry, but it's just bollocks to say that Thais only "use" two tones. The fact that you don't hear it doesn't mean that it's not happening.


No it isn't. Thais, just like most other people are lazy when they speak and they rarely pronounce the tones properly, just as they rarely pronounce ร properly.

I often don't pronounce _t_ when it is in the middle of a word, just as many Americans think a _t_ should sound like a _d_.

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## Dan

Is this based on your listening skills? Or has a native speaker told you this?

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## Marmite the Dog

> Is this based on your listening skills? Or has a native speaker told you this?


Both, but just because you can't hear it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

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## Dan

A Thai  native speaker told you, with a straight face, that "generally Thai only use the rising tone and tend to miss the others out"? He or she was pulling your chain.

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## English Noodles

:mid:

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## JB Stuart

No matter how big you think your Thai vocabulary is, until you can use all five tones correctly (or close, anyway) Thais will never think you're speaking clearly and probably won't understand half of the words you're trying to say.  Until you can recognize them, it's going to be a rough road trying to understand them as well.

When you try to tell a Thai woman she's beautiful, a correct phrase would be:   คุณสวยมาก (khun suay mach), but  without the proper tones, it comes off as:   คุณซวยมาก , which translates roughly as "you're very bad luck".  Of course, almost any Thai woman knows what you're trying to say and because she knows the trouble that Westerners have with the language will be very happy that you're even close.  But...I know from experience that using the tones correctly gets you a LOT more mileage

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## robuzo

> When you try to tell a Thai woman she's beautiful, a correct phrase would be:   คุณสวยมาก (khun suay mach), but  without the proper tones, it comes off as:   คุณซวยมาก , which translates roughly as "you're very bad luck".  Of course, almost any Thai woman knows what you're trying to say


Or worse, she thinks you are trying to tell her how unfortunate you were to make her acquaintance and instead assumes you're still smitten.  No, really, baby, you're pretty, but I feel like I've followed a black cat under a ladder. . .

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## CRSD

If I may interject here, I think it boils down to a couple of things. First the regional dialects, for instance the substitution in some areas of L for R and vice-versa. In some areas the R in the first consonant cluster is left out, i.e. "Khrap" becomes "Khap". When it comes to tones or lack thereof, I think it's more that with some speakers and regions the tones are less pronounced or are more "subtle" if you will, but they are there. A native speaker will catch them, but it is far more difficult for a non-native (and half deaf, such as myself) to hear such nuances.

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## robuzo

> If I may interject here, I think it boils down to a couple of things. First the regional dialects, for instance the substitution in some areas of L for R and vice-versa. In some areas the R in the first consonant cluster is left out, i.e. "Khrap" becomes "Khap". When it comes to tones or lack thereof, I think it's more that with some speakers and regions the tones are less pronounced or are more "subtle" if you will, but they are there. A native speaker will catch them, but it is far more difficult for a non-native (and half deaf, such as myself) to hear such nuances.


I would like to learn more about regional dialects in spoken Thai- not the Thai vs Lao (Isaan) differences, but actual differences among Thai speakers.  This tendency to drop consonants- is it a Central Thai thing?  I seem to hear it among Thai speakers from Phetchabun/Phichit.  How about shifts in tones- are there tonal shifts from region to region?  My wife (from P-bun) insists that I talk someone from Suphanburi- presumably an uneducated, possibly semi-retarded person from Suphanburi- because of my (mis)application of tones.  Not sure where she gets that idea.  At least I have not been accused of learning Thai from a Suphanburi mia noi.

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## pescator

The tendency to leave out consonants in consonant clusters, particularly R and L, you will find all over Thailand. Same goes with the pronounciation of Ror Ruea as Lor Ling.
One exception may be Kmer speakers in say Buriram who have a distinct R sound in their language.

I dare say it comes more down to education and sloppy pronounciation than regional differences. With exception of course of Lao, that does not have the letter R.
Most thais are perfectly able to use the proper pronounciation when they are pressed for it, e.g. in a formal setting.
They just don`t do it on a daily basis.

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## Marmite the Dog

> Most thais are perfectly able to use the proper pronounciation when they are pressed for it, e.g. in a formal setting. They just don`t do it on a daily basis.


True, but some ignorant folks here seem to think all Thais speak the 'King's' Thai all the time, whereas the reality is that most Thais speak Thai pretty poorly in an everyday setting.

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## Boon Mee

^
Got that right.
Like pronouncing Farang - "Falang"... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## pescator

> True, but some ignorant folks here seem to think all Thais speak the *'King's' Thai* all the time, whereas the reality is that most Thais speak Thai pretty poorly in an everyday setting.


I felt tempted to use that expression myself. But I knew some smartass would say: Hey, the king speaks rachasap  :mid:

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## CRSD

Personally, being from the states, I tend to believe being "lazy" with language is universal. Couple that with regional accents and it can drive you batty if you are a language purist. For example, the pronunciation of words in the New England area can be vastly different from the mid-west and so on. Then there's the "lazy" aspect, such as the difference just between Chicago and southern Illinois. In SI they "warsh" the dishes. If one really wants to go a bit crazy, try Arkansas for a while....lol. I've noticed this in many countries. In some areas of OZ, there's the tendency to add an "r" to the end of words, so "area" becomes "arear" and so on. I really don't think there's an end to the argument of what "Proper" Thai is any more than there's an end to the discussion of what constitutes "Proper" English or any other language.

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