The Gun Issue thread

[hazz]

^ Been in Switzerland many, many times = these pictures are bullshi!.

Why resort to such nonsense - weapons are not allowed to be openly carried and only soldiers have guns at home

Boonmee resorts to this nonsense simply because he would rather knowingly believe in a lie than believe in an inconvenient truth. Numerous people, some who have lived in Switzerland have explained the gun situation there to him and the other tea party frut cakes on numerous occasions, unfortunately often in the dog house.

The truth is that switzerland and canada both show that it is possible for a contry to have high levels of gun ownership without anything like the anual slaughter we see in the US. But then we have the lie, and boonmee knows full well that its a lie, that gun ownership in Switzerland is just like the US.... therefore guns are not the problem. Most of the guns in switserland are the government issued rifles, which used to be kept with 50 rounds of ammunition and for the last 5 years or so no rounds of ammunition. You are allowed to carry a gun in public, as long as you have a legitimate reason for transporting the gun and all ammunition must be carried separately. Carry permits for loaded guns are generally only given to people who have a professional need i.e people who work in security. Do any of think for one second that boonmee or the people who do his thinking for him and make his little pictures would accept a US with swiss like gun laws?

[barbaro]

The truth is that switzerland and canada both show that it is possible for a contry to have high levels of gun ownership without anything like the anual slaughter we see in the US. But then we have the lie, and boonmee knows full well that its a lie, that gun ownership in Switzerland is just like the US.... therefore guns are not the problem. Most of the guns in switserland are the government issued rifles, which used to be kept with 50 rounds of ammunition and for the last 5 years or so no rounds of ammunition. You are allowed to carry a gun in public, as long as you have a legitimate reason for transporting the gun and all ammunition must be carried separately. Carry permits for loaded guns are generally only given to people who have a professional need i.e people who work in security. Do any of think for one second that boonmee or the people who do his thinking for him and make his little pictures would accept a US with swiss like gun laws?

In the gun issue, whether for or against, there are often comparison to other countries. Fair enough.

But I think the American gun issue can really only be discussed in, or about, the US.

Different countries, different histories, different ethnic groups and different cultures.

[hazz]

If the Left didn't employ Hypocrisy at every turn, they'd be totally out of ideas!

Thats a lot more info than your hive mind controllers normally prepair for you, got me quite curious as to just how much bullshit and cherry picking they got upto. Whats quite nice is they have given a source, unusual if your bullshiting.... which leads me to think are you mind controllers being honest or are they working on the assumption that your too dumb to question anything they feed you?


so lets have a look at that original source you have there, Firearm Violence, 1993-2011


lets look at that decline in firearm homicides and crimes.





whats interesting here is that almost all of that decline in gun crime that boonmee's thinkers are quoting happened between 1993 and 1999, then something went horribly wrong after 2000. I have to say that I am quite curious what killed that decline... the nation lost the will to do what was necessary to continue the decline? but very different to the impression of continuous decline in firearm crimes that the monkey past suggests.

And if one goes beyond crimes and for example look at the figures for non-fatal firearm injuries as a whole, Figure 12 in the pdf, a graph showing an almost unrelenting increase in numbers, tracking gun ownership rates? or perhaps the decline in common sense in the US.

One also has to wonder why did boonmee's thinkers talk about the drop in firearm crime rates? why not quote the percentage of violent crime involving guns? after all they say that the increase in gun ownership rates in the US is responsible in part from the drop in gun crimes. Perhaps its because there's been bugger all change

% homicides involving guns: 1993 71.2% 2011 69.6% (table 2 in the pdf)

Gets even worse, another figure they decided to miss out is how victim's of crime protect themselves during crime (table 11 2007-2011)

Threatened or attacked with a firearm: violent crime 0.8% propery crime 0.1%

Given that the US has over 90 guns per 100 citizens, probably the most heavily armed country on the planet and many of those guns sold for self defence..... they don't seem to get used with 70% of Americans faced with voilent crime opting to offer no resistence or using non confretational techniques.

Clearly guns for self defence is more clever marketing by the NRA/Gun industry lobbyists rather than reality.

[hazz]

Apparently less than 2% state prisoners caught with a military style semi automatic or automatic gun

why talk about state prisoners and not gun crimes? Well the answer is spin and deception. you see less than 20% of state prisoners committed a gun crime.... Thus with this littel trick one has reduced the figures five fold.

a more honest statement would be

10% of criminals in state jail for gun crime used a....

less than 1% of armed criminals sourced their gun from a gun show




Here's the source table and boonmee's handlers are right less than 1% of firearms are sourced from gun shows. About 68% are obtained from friends, family, drug dealers and fences and one has to wonder how many of these guns were untracable guns baught at a show? a legitimate question.

But what really stands with all of this talk of taking personal responsibility for what ones does with guns clearly does not work given that 40% of guns come from family and friends. The bit the gun lobby seem to miss out is that the concept of responsibility is meaningless without accountability... something that separates children from adults.
You buy a gun, you are accountable to varying degrees for what's done with it... really until you pass it onto another gun dealer at which point it becomes their issue. rather like a car. except little of this accountability exists, the gun lobby, the nra, those who talk most about personally responsibility are those who are fighing most to keep gun owners from having to face accountability for what they lets their gun be used for.

[barbaro]

whats interesting here is that almost all of that decline in gun crime that boonmee's thinkers are quoting happened between 1993 and 1999, then something went horribly wrong after 2000. I have to say that I am quite curious what killed that decline... the nation lost the will to do what was necessary to continue the decline?

It was and is not about the nations will.

It's about individuals.

The rest of your post is very good with the numbers, IMO.

[panama hat]

In the gun issue, whether for or against, there are often comparison to other countries. Fair enough.

. . . and then you contradict yourself:

But I think the American gun issue can really only be discussed in, or about, the US.

Different countries, different histories, different ethnic groups and different cultures.

How many different ethnicities are there in the US? How many different cultures?

Hardly an argument in itself, more like an excuse

It was and is not about the nations will.

It's about individuals.

Of course it is about the nation's will - the status quo has been accepted and every now and then individuals will rise up to speak only to be battered by the thick majority and the NRA (with the pollies who are in their pockets)

[Morden]

The truth is that switzerland and canada both show that it is possible for a contry to have high levels of gun ownership without anything like the anual slaughter we see in the US. But then we have the lie, and boonmee knows full well that its a lie, that gun ownership in Switzerland is just like the US.... therefore guns are not the problem. Most of the guns in switserland are the government issued rifles, which used to be kept with 50 rounds of ammunition and for the last 5 years or so no rounds of ammunition. You are allowed to carry a gun in public, as long as you have a legitimate reason for transporting the gun and all ammunition must be carried separately. Carry permits for loaded guns are generally only given to people who have a professional need i.e people who work in security. Do any of think for one second that boonmee or the people who do his thinking for him and make his little pictures would accept a US with swiss like gun laws?

In the gun issue, whether for or against, there are often comparison to other countries. Fair enough.

But I think the American gun issue can really only be discussed in, or about, the US.

Different countries, different histories, different ethnic groups and different cultures.

I can understand that some Americans might be irritated by others commenting on the disastrous state of US gun crime, its many regional laws on the subject and the poor enforcement of those laws. However, whilst American interests continue to tell the rest of the world how to behave, those people might learn something of how that feels and learn from the views of others.

The different 'historical' experiences to which you make reference raise an interesting point. European countries have several more centuries of human and legal history than the US. Great Britain, for example, has gone through the phase of having very lax gun laws but has matured beyond that as circumstances change and improved its laws and their enforcement.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'different' ethnic groups'. The US population consists largely of descendants of Europeans and is experiencing changes resulting from more recent immigration, as is Europe. The US culture has developed from European culture but, it seems, is ignoring some of it in the mistaken belief among some of its citizens that is has more freedom. In Western Europe, a black youth can walk home with nothing on his person than candy and a soda drink without being shot to death by a witless wannabe cop. Who has the most freedom in that instance? The European or the American?

Many non-Americans either have family in the US or would like to enjoy vacations in the US without the risk of being shot by some street thug or self-appointed vigilante. Apart from that self-interest, there are foreigners who have a more balanced view of gun control and hope that Americans who presently hold the extreme views of the gun industry's representative, the NRA, might eventually see that something must change for the sake of personal freedom and safety in the US.

The NRA arguments, repeated constantly in the face of common sense, are usually little more than attempts to divert attention from the truth with lies and irrelevancies. There is more to personal freedom than feeding the gun trade or pretending that an AR15 is a hunting rifle.

[Boon Mee]

^ Been in Switzerland many, many times = these pictures are bullshi!.

Why resort to such nonsense - weapons are not allowed to be openly carried and only soldiers have guns at home

Boonmee resorts to this nonsense simply because he would rather knowingly believe in a lie than believe in an inconvenient truth. Numerous people, some who have lived in Switzerland have explained the gun situation there to him and the other tea party frut cakes on numerous occasions, unfortunately often in the dog house.

The truth is that switzerland and canada both show that it is possible for a contry to have high levels of gun ownership without anything like the anual slaughter we see in the US. But then we have the lie, and boonmee knows full well that its a lie, that gun ownership in Switzerland is just like the US.... therefore guns are not the problem. Most of the guns in switserland are the government issued rifles, which used to be kept with 50 rounds of ammunition and for the last 5 years or so no rounds of ammunition. You are allowed to carry a gun in public, as long as you have a legitimate reason for transporting the gun and all ammunition must be carried separately. Carry permits for loaded guns are generally only given to people who have a professional need i.e people who work in security. Do any of think for one second that boonmee or the people who do his thinking for him and make his little pictures would accept a US with swiss like gun laws?

You girls sure do get yer panties in a wad!

[Morden]

^ Been in Switzerland many, many times = these pictures are bullshi!.

Why resort to such nonsense - weapons are not allowed to be openly carried and only soldiers have guns at home

Boonmee resorts to this nonsense simply because he would rather knowingly believe in a lie than believe in an inconvenient truth. Numerous people, some who have lived in Switzerland have explained the gun situation there to him and the other tea party frut cakes on numerous occasions, unfortunately often in the dog house.

The truth is that switzerland and canada both show that it is possible for a contry to have high levels of gun ownership without anything like the anual slaughter we see in the US. But then we have the lie, and boonmee knows full well that its a lie, that gun ownership in Switzerland is just like the US.... therefore guns are not the problem. Most of the guns in switserland are the government issued rifles, which used to be kept with 50 rounds of ammunition and for the last 5 years or so no rounds of ammunition. You are allowed to carry a gun in public, as long as you have a legitimate reason for transporting the gun and all ammunition must be carried separately. Carry permits for loaded guns are generally only given to people who have a professional need i.e people who work in security. Do any of think for one second that boonmee or the people who do his thinking for him and make his little pictures would accept a US with swiss like gun laws?

You girls sure do get yer panties in a wad!

How does the statement over that image explain the shooting of innocent people or their homes by US cops? Are cops the bad guys? The argument that guns are not part of the problem is old and tired.

Guns are dangerous objects. They should be limited by type, use and location and licensed only to individuals who are competent in their use and care. And, of course, the laws should be enforced effectively.

[Boon Mee]

^
Yes, there are bad cops out there...

[barbaro]

Many non-Americans either have family in the US or would like to enjoy vacations in the US without the risk of being shot by some street thug or self-appointed vigilante.

Vigilante shooting are almost non-existent. If you are referring to Zimmerman, he was not a "vigilante" but a citizen defending himself.

As for street thugs, yes this is possible. In parts of some cities like Chicago for example there are street thug killings. Race: black.

Other parts of Los Angeles have the same problem. Race: black and latin.

But other areas have this also. 3 Weeks ago a teenager was shot in rural Washington state in a drive by shooting.

Shooter black; dead victim white.

random act of violence.

I am pointing out black latin because it is an issue ignored and avoided.

And yes, most mass shooters are white males.

[Morden]

^
Yes, there are bad cops out there...

I was referring to the New York and Boston incidents on which cops went wild with their guns. Were they bad cops?

If cops can't get it right, what chance is their of trusting civilians, especially the half-wit wannabe cops?

[MrG]

Vigilante shooting are almost non-existent. If you are referring to Zimmerman, he was not a "vigilante" but a citizen defending himself.

Evidence indicates that Trayvon was defending himself against a stalker with a gun.

[MrG]

The NRA arguments, repeated constantly in the face of common sense, are usually little more than attempts to divert attention from the truth with lies and irrelevancies.

The NRA has money. Money buys Congressmen, Senators, etc.
Politics in America, and it's pretty much on the surface.
Astounding.

[Boon Mee]

Vigilante shooting are almost non-existent. If you are referring to Zimmerman, he was not a "vigilante" but a citizen defending himself.

Evidence indicates that Trayvon was defending himself against a stalker with a gun.

No, evidence suggest little Trayvon threw the first punch and was pummeling Zim MMA style.

[harrybarracuda]

Vigilante shooting are almost non-existent. If you are referring to Zimmerman, he was not a "vigilante" but a citizen defending himself.

Evidence indicates that Trayvon was defending himself against a stalker with a gun.

No, evidence suggest little Trayvon threw the first punch and was pummeling Zim MMA style.

No, I think you'll find that's the NRA's official version.

[Morden]

Vigilante shooting are almost non-existent. If you are referring to Zimmerman, he was not a "vigilante" but a citizen defending himself.

Evidence indicates that Trayvon was defending himself against a stalker with a gun.

Zimmerman, having failed in is desire to become a cop, was a self-appointed 'neighbourhood watch' person. In other words, a vigilante with an attitude problem.

[hazz]

^ Been in Switzerland many, many times = these pictures are bullshi!.

Why resort to such nonsense - weapons are not allowed to be openly carried and only soldiers have guns at home

Boonmee resorts to this nonsense simply because he would rather knowingly believe in a lie than believe in an inconvenient truth. Numerous people, some who have lived in Switzerland have explained the gun situation there to him and the other tea party frut cakes on numerous occasions, unfortunately often in the dog house.

The truth is that switzerland and canada both show that it is possible for a contry to have high levels of gun ownership without anything like the anual slaughter we see in the US. But then we have the lie, and boonmee knows full well that its a lie, that gun ownership in Switzerland is just like the US.... therefore guns are not the problem. Most of the guns in switserland are the government issued rifles, which used to be kept with 50 rounds of ammunition and for the last 5 years or so no rounds of ammunition. You are allowed to carry a gun in public, as long as you have a legitimate reason for transporting the gun and all ammunition must be carried separately. Carry permits for loaded guns are generally only given to people who have a professional need i.e people who work in security. Do any of think for one second that boonmee or the people who do his thinking for him and make his little pictures would accept a US with swiss like gun laws?

You girls sure do get yer panties in a wad!

How does the statement over that image explain the shooting of innocent people or their homes by US cops? Are cops the bad guys? The argument that guns are not part of the problem is old and tired.

Guns are dangerous objects. They should be limited by type, use and location and licensed only to individuals who are competent in their use and care. And, of course, the laws should be enforced effectively.

I don't think boonmee has had an original thought for decades, hence his need to communicte though pictures and slogans, I suspect its the only way he can communicate. Its got to make shopping hell, carrying round all those print outs and just think of the ink costs.... got to be worse than dementia.

the really sad thing is that the biggest economic and security threat to America does not come Muslims, terrorists or communists... it comes from rich americans turing they country into a plutocracy where profits are privatised to the rich and the losses are socialised. where the government bends over to give money to the rich and the large corperations and leaving the poor, and increasingly the middle classes, to wollow in chaos and poverty. And where do they get the power to do this, from the votes that the likes of boonmee, rickthai and the tea party give to them for free (well the cost of a clever marketing campaign and a few slogan picks). At least thais had the sense to ask for cash from the people they gave the country too.

Personally I believe this obsession America has with guns is simply a comfort blanket to help them cope with consequences of handing ever more of the nations GDP to the rich and the negative consequences of doing so. Because they clealy don't actually use them much for self defence as source of boonmee's little monkey paste showed and if push ever came to shove I don't think the NRA and the militias of America are going to fair well against a full onslaught from the American military. Better option would be to man up, face reality and start using their votes to regain their country... not that they ever will if boonmee is representative of the American voter.

[panama hat]

Zimmerman, he was not a "vigilante" but a citizen defending himself.

Umm, no. He is a thug with a gun who followed/stalked a biy who had gone to the shops to buy some stuff. Where do you get this 'citizen defending himself' crap from

No, evidence suggest little Trayvon threw the first punch and was pummeling Zim MMA style.

And who was following whom with a loaded weapon? Who was playing wannabe cop and who was walking hoem from the shops?

Better option would be to man up, face reality and start using their votes to regain their country...

Never going to happen because someone would wrap themselves in the stars and stripes and invent another enemy.
The cost of sheep-like disinformation regurgitation (yes, BM is sadly one of them with his constant use of pictures instead of addressing the argument.

[Boon Mee]

^^
Spoken like a true card-carrying member of the TDMA!

The movement to 'regain' the country is continued exposure of the seditious 'progressive' programs that infest the country. Discontinue the schools meals such a Mooch's which the kids hate. Rejection of that train wreck of Obmacare. Voter ID laws enforced and repudiation of all the intrusive actions of this empty suit referred to as The Messiah.

btw, he's a lame-duck with 3.5 years to go. Good luck with that...

[Morden]

^ Been in Switzerland many, many times = these pictures are bullshi!.

Why resort to such nonsense - weapons are not allowed to be openly carried and only soldiers have guns at home

Boonmee resorts to this nonsense simply because he would rather knowingly believe in a lie than believe in an inconvenient truth. Numerous people, some who have lived in Switzerland have explained the gun situation there to him and the other tea party frut cakes on numerous occasions, unfortunately often in the dog house.

The truth is that switzerland and canada both show that it is possible for a contry to have high levels of gun ownership without anything like the anual slaughter we see in the US. But then we have the lie, and boonmee knows full well that its a lie, that gun ownership in Switzerland is just like the US.... therefore guns are not the problem. Most of the guns in switserland are the government issued rifles, which used to be kept with 50 rounds of ammunition and for the last 5 years or so no rounds of ammunition. You are allowed to carry a gun in public, as long as you have a legitimate reason for transporting the gun and all ammunition must be carried separately. Carry permits for loaded guns are generally only given to people who have a professional need i.e people who work in security. Do any of think for one second that boonmee or the people who do his thinking for him and make his little pictures would accept a US with swiss like gun laws?

You girls sure do get yer panties in a wad!

How does the statement over that image explain the shooting of innocent people or their homes by US cops? Are cops the bad guys? The argument that guns are not part of the problem is old and tired.

Guns are dangerous objects. They should be limited by type, use and location and licensed only to individuals who are competent in their use and care. And, of course, the laws should be enforced effectively.

I don't think boonmee has had an original thought for decades, hence his need to communicte though pictures and slogans, I suspect its the only way he can communicate. Its got to make shopping hell, carrying round all those print outs and just think of the ink costs.... got to be worse than dementia.

the really sad thing is that the biggest economic and security threat to America does not come Muslims, terrorists or communists... it comes from rich americans turing they country into a plutocracy where profits are privatised to the rich and the losses are socialised. where the government bends over to give money to the rich and the large corperations and leaving the poor, and increasingly the middle classes, to wollow in chaos and poverty. And where do they get the power to do this, from the votes that the likes of boonmee, rickthai and the tea party give to them for free (well the cost of a clever marketing campaign and a few slogan picks). At least thais had the sense to ask for cash from the people they gave the country too.

Personally I believe this obsession America has with guns is simply a comfort blanket to help them cope with consequences of handing ever more of the nations GDP to the rich and the negative consequences of doing so. Because they clealy don't actually use them much for self defence as source of boonmee's little monkey paste showed and if push ever came to shove I don't think the NRA and the militias of America are going to fair well against a full onslaught from the American military. Better option would be to man up, face reality and start using their votes to regain their country... not that they ever will if boonmee is representative of the American voter.

Very ell out. Just about sums it all up.

[harrybarracuda]

^^
Spoken like a true card-carrying member of the TDMA!

The movement to 'regain' the country is continued exposure of the seditious 'progressive' programs that infest the country. Discontinue the schools meals such a Mooch's which the kids hate. Rejection of that train wreck of Obmacare. Voter ID laws enforced and repudiation of all the intrusive actions of this empty suit referred to as The Messiah.

btw, he's a lame-duck with 3.5 years to go. Good luck with that...

Er Booners, I don't remember the US Government shelling its own cities, perhaps you could find one of your stoopid fucking pictures for that.

[barbaro]

Vigilante shooting are almost non-existent. If you are referring to Zimmerman, he was not a "vigilante" but a citizen defending himself.

Evidence indicates that Trayvon was defending himself against a stalker with a gun.

There was never stalking.

There is no evidence that Martin knew Z had a gun. That is why the shot was fired while Martin was on top of him, as forensic evidence proves.

In states with CCW laws, people should be very careful not get in physical confrontations - or start a fight as Martin likely did (although we can only speculate who pushed, grabbed, or threw the first punch, depending on whether Z's testimony is true that he was "ambushed").

[harrybarracuda]

Vigilante shooting are almost non-existent. If you are referring to Zimmerman, he was not a "vigilante" but a citizen defending himself.

Evidence indicates that Trayvon was defending himself against a stalker with a gun.

There was never stalking.

There is no evidence that Martin knew Z had a gun. That is why the shot was fired while Martin was on top of him, as forensic evidence proves.

In states with CCW laws, people should be very careful not get in physical confrontations - or start a fight as Martin likely did (although we can only speculate who pushed, grabbed, or threw the first punch, depending on whether Z's testimony is true that he was "ambushed").

You make a valid point. Perhaps the unarmed Martin thought the only way to protect himself from a stalker, and possible lunatic, was to disarm him.

[MrG]

or start a fight as Martin likely did (

Where do you get this jive turkey crap. By what "likelyhood" did Trayvon start a fight with a stranger much bigger than he is who is following him in the night? Because idiots with ideologies have to twist logic to confrom to their world view that, if black people are walking in nice neighborhoods, they deserve to be shot. I grew up in this country with plenty of racists in the family. I know of where I speak.