The Gun Issue thread

[barbaro]

barbaro tries so hard to seem impartial but it just doesn't work.

No one posting on this thread is impartial.

Some believe he was guilty of Murder 2; other don't.

The only impartial people are people who say "I do not know / I do not care."

When this story broke a year and half ago I let the media fool. me. I posted on another forum supporting Martin 100%.

Then, more and more exagerrations came out and the media made this a "race case" which it should never have done. The firing of the NBC writer/reporter for editing the transcirpts was one of a few instances. The media stirred up racial sentiments.

'stand your ground' law.

I have only read the generic media description of these "stand your ground laws" and the one in particular in FL.

But (and none of us are legal experts) I do not see the SyG law here. Why? Because the Zim shot was from the bottom and he had injuries.

Incidences like these have happened in my hometown, just a few minutes drive from where I live.

2 drivers argued over something. One guy gets out his his car, walks up to the other guy sitting in his car, and starts punching him. The guy receiving the punches sitting in the car pulls a gun, fires one shot and kills the guy.

No charges. Self defense.

Different situations could have brought a charge of manslaughter, for this very same incident.

And the ensuing logic is to carry weapons with you at all times and feel free to kill anyone who you feel threatens you, even if you have to follow/stalk them to get to that stage

You cannot kill someoe who threatens you 99% of the time.

It is also hard to claim a "fear for my life" by just exchanging words. People have gone down for Murder 2 for that.

Ocker, I presume you're Australian. Have you lived in the US?

As I noted, these fatal shootings happen everyday in the US over parking disputes, traffic, arguments in bars.

Never assault or start a fight with a stranger in the US, especially in states with CCW laws.

Violence comes about too easily in the US.

[panama hat]

You cannot kill someoe who threatens you 99% of the time.

That is factually incorrect in SYG states

Ocker, I presume you're Australian. Have you lived in the US?

Yes I am and yes I have - Detroit, Chicago, Phoenix, Boston

Never assault or start a fight with a stranger in the US, especially in states with CCW laws.

Here's the problem with that - someone threatens you - you don't have a gun. This someone assaults you - you defend yourself. He feels threatened, pulls out his gun and shoots you. No worries, no witnesses - he's safe and you're dead

Violence comes about too easily in the US.

Here we agree

[Boon Mee]

Big Brother Knows What's Good For You!



Get a handle on those Thought Crimes too!

[barbaro]

Because this trial - and the gun issue - has involved related topics here is a brief commentary.

Please watch it.

I usually loathe O'reilly, but here, I think he raises very good points.

[robuzo]

So, riddle me this gun nuts? Did carrying a pistol make GZ safer or not? Or did he just get lucky A) not to have it taken and B) not to be looking at 5-10 in the clink?

[hazz]

Big Brother Knows What's Good For You!



Get a handle on those Thought Crimes too!

Quite right boonmee after all we must not interferer with the constitutional rights of Americans to go nuts, buy an armery and shoot up a school... After all school massacres are an important part of american culture.

keeps them on message afraid and buying guns and ammo

[Rainfall]

Because this trial - and the gun issue - has involved related topics here is a brief commentary.

Please watch it.

I usually loathe O'reilly, but here, I think he raises very good points.

I watched it. It was painful and good for nothing but to train the pain treshold. O'Reilly is his usual self, a demagogue.

"The reason there is so much violence and chaos in the black precincts is the disintegration of the African-American family. 75% of all black babies are born out of wedlock. That drives poverty and the lack of involved fathers leads to young boys growing up resentful and unsupervised. When was the last time you saw a public ad telling young black girls to avoid becoming pregnant?"

How are (black) people supposed to run a family, and teach values to their kids when they have to work two jobs to make ends meet? That is what the rich demand from the poor trough their mouthpieces like O'Reilly, also mobility, say have a job in a different state and come home and see the family once or twice per month. Families suffer under this stress, and fall apart. So how are market demands on the poor and family reconcilable?

How can the government pay for ads telling young black girls to avoid becoming pregnant, when its budget is being reduced all the time, and diverted to wars and subsidies for the rich? Better than ads would be the government handing out contraception and abortions for free to young black girls, but O'Reilly would call them whores at once.

What he means by 'avoid pregnancies' is not to have sex. That's as outlandish a demand as to ask the Mississipi to flow upstream to avoid pollution of the Gulf. People have sex, especially poor ones because they don't have much more for fun. That is a given, and if one wants to reduce pregnacies, there is no other way than contraception.

So let's turn O'Reilly upside down to get it right, not blacks born out of wedlock drive poverty, but poverty drives blacks born out of wedlock, perpetuating poverty. This is desired by the rich, a fast growing population provides economic growth, and cheap labour, so poverty is being created. And the really neat thing is that the rich don't have to care about the effects poverty produces, such as crime, they're safe in their walled estates.

[barbaro]

[QUOTE=Rainfall;2519866]

How are (black) people supposed to run a family, and teach values to their kids when they have to work two jobs to make ends meet?

I bet less than 50% of blacks (and a lot more less than 50%) work 2 jobs.

How can the government pay for ads telling young black girls to avoid becoming pregnant, when its budget is being reduced all the time

If someone needs to be told by the government not to get pregnant, then he/she is really stupid.

....to get it right, not blacks born out of wedlock drive poverty, but poverty drives blacks born out of wedlock, perpetuating poverty.

Income and employment for blacks has risen a lot in the past several decades - and so have blacks having children out of wedlock.

I would need to see data to show what you are saying in the last quote above.

Have you lived in US cities?

[panama hat]

I bet less than 50% of blacks (and a lot more less than 50%) work 2 jobs.

Of course you can back up this bet with some facts? Surely you can

If someone needs to be told by the government not to get pregnant, then he/she is really stupid.

So you believe that sex education shouldn't be taught in schools?

Income and employment for blacks has risen a lot in the past several decades - and so have blacks having children out of wedlock.

I would need to see data to show what you are saying in the last quote above.

How about you provide facts and stats for 'income ...... has risen 'a lot' for blacks - taking into account taxation, inflation etc...

Have you lived in US cities?

I have, yes. But . . . are you saying that watching the population while sipping a macchiato has more credibility than facts?

[Rainfall]

If someone needs to be told by the government not to get pregnant, then he/she is really stupid.

I did not say that, O'Reilly did. You brought it here and thought he raised very good points.

Income and employment for blacks has risen a lot in the past several decades - and so have blacks having children out of wedlock.

I would need to see data to show what you are saying in the last quote above.

Have you lived in US cities?

No, never been to the US. Seems to be a fundamental law of humanity that poor nations have high birth rates, https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2054rank.html

and in societies with great social divides, the poor breed faster than the rich. Just everywhere. While there might be minor reasons, the fundamental one for high birth rates is poverty.

Born out of wedlock is also a growing global phenomenon. It's approaching 50% in UK and Germany, and most likely amongst the American Caucasians as well. I reckon it's mainly because women have jobs and incomes of their own nowadays, they no longer depend on husbands. For a growing number of women and men alike, marriage is no longer desirable, let alone a must. Then there are the financial hazards of a divorce. That was easy in the communist countries, done within weeks, no alimony for the ex-spouse, child support 10% of the income of the ex-husband per kid until they turned 18. A lost freedom.

[barbaro]

Rainfall,

I agree with many of your points above.

Lots of parents are dysfunctional, and even worse than that. Some people shold not have kids. Having kids is a personal decision.

[panama hat]

I bet less than 50% of blacks (and a lot more less than 50%) work 2 jobs.

Of course you can back up this bet with some facts? Surely you can

If someone needs to be told by the government not to get pregnant, then he/she is really stupid.

So you believe that sex education shouldn't be taught in schools?

Income and employment for blacks has risen a lot in the past several decades - and so have blacks having children out of wedlock.

I would need to see data to show what you are saying in the last quote above.

How about you provide facts and stats for 'income ...... has risen 'a lot' for blacks - taking into account taxation, inflation etc...

Have you lived in US cities?

I have, yes. But . . . are you saying that watching the population while sipping a macchiato has more credibility than facts?

Barbaro?

[hazz]

ocker, a common defifict you will find the dedicated right wingers opinions and facts are the same thing with the same value. Its how they manage to maintain their, often self contradictory, world view

[Morden]

ocker, a common defifict you will find the dedicated right wingers opinions and facts are the same thing with the same value. Its how they manage to maintain their, often self contradictory, world view

I think that few have a real 'world view'. They can see only their own narrow minded and selfish one. If any of them do have a 'world view', it's probably that the place is no more than a shooting gallery.

[barbaro]

I bet less than 50% of blacks (and a lot more less than 50%) work 2 jobs.

Of course you can back up this bet with some facts? Surely you can

If someone needs to be told by the government not to get pregnant, then he/she is really stupid.

So you believe that sex education shouldn't be taught in schools?

Income and employment for blacks has risen a lot in the past several decades - and so have blacks having children out of wedlock.

I would need to see data to show what you are saying in the last quote above.

How about you provide facts and stats for 'income ...... has risen 'a lot' for blacks - taking into account taxation, inflation etc...

Have you lived in US cities?

I have, yes. But . . . are you saying that watching the population while sipping a macchiato has more credibility than facts?

Barbaro?

My comment is based on the facts.

Also, I never stated that I sipped on macchaito's, nor any other gourmet coffee. Straight black, nezcafe, no sugar, no cream.

[hazz]

My comment is based on the facts.

whilst I am sure you believe this. many of us believe that you suffer from a malady known as teabagitus causing you to unable to differentiate between evidence and opinion.

Perhaps could dispell these concerns by showing us where this evidence is

[barbaro]

My comment is based on the facts.

whilst I am sure you believe this. many of us believe that you suffer from a malady known as teabagitus causing you to unable to differentiate between evidence and opinion.

Perhaps could dispell these concerns by showing us where this evidence is

I was never a member of the teaparty and never went to meetings. Haven´t followed the movement much, except for occasional article in the newspaper.

As for showing evidence, I have studied this issue and so has Rainfall.

She has not spent hours googling and I have not either - for the sole purpose of posting the data here.

And you, can show us your data as well.

[Boon Mee]

Remember, only trained professional law enforcement officers can be trusted with guns.

New Jersey police officer indicted with first-degree murder in Gambrills road rage killing.

But if he were a civilian with a gun permit, this would be more than just a local crime story. And if the races were reversed, a totally different outcome...

[Morden]

Remember, only trained professional law enforcement officers can be trusted with guns.

New Jersey police officer indicted with first-degree murder in Gambrills road rage killing.

But if he were a civilian with a gun permit, this would be more than just a local crime story. And if the races were reversed, a totally different outcome...

That shows the folly of letting any old cop go around packing heat.

They can be dangerous off duty too. Remember the NY cops who managed to shoot innocent people whilst taking pop shots at suspects? Remember the Boston cops recently who shot up a whole neighbourhood whilst attempting to apprehend the alleged Boston Bombers? And the cop who shot a colleague when they were firing at a suspect's car from opposite directions?

Only specially trained cops should carry guns. Then again, if you live in a society where civilians are encouraged to carry guns and use them in the street, perhaps even the street cleaners should be armed.

[hazz]

I was never a member of the teaparty and never went to meetings. Haven´t followed the movement much, except for occasional article in the newspaper.
.

we its not like you have to be German to have German measals is it? are are you suffering from an inability to differentiate between evidence and opinon, the primary symptom of teabagitus?

[

As for showing evidence, I have studied this issue and so has Rainfall.

She has not spent hours googling and I have not either - for the sole purpose of posting the data here.

And you, can show us your data as well

Well that quote does somewhet confirm teh diagnosis, after all why would you bother looking for evidence that you are right.... when you simply know that everything you believe is right as a matter of blind faith.

As for me, you will see I will routinely use evidence over opinions and I will give the sources of my evidence so that you can check yourselves that I am correct. as I have done here:
https://teakdoor.com/speakers-corner/...ml#post2518424 (Reasons Citizens Should Own Guns)

https://teakdoor.com/speakers-corner/...ml#post2506393 (Reasons Citizens Should Own Guns)

which why I can say stuff like:

therefore buy making guns readily available to American population each year between 2007-2011:

• 460 americans might have saved their lives by using guns, whilst 32,500 are killed by them, 11,500 homicides
• i.e for each life saved 70 die, of which 25 die as a result of homicide

knowing that I am not talking a complete pile of boonmee or even suffering from your dose of teabagitus

[barbaro]

hazz,

You are asking me to go and collect data on what CAUSES some people to do certain things such as have too many kids, commit violence, and be illiterate.

That was my last discussion with Rainfall, who claimed poverty CAUSES these behaviors and more.

If you want to start a thread on this topic, be my guest.

Rainfall never posted data to back her opinion up either. We both cannot be arsed.

[robuzo]

This is the gun issue thread, amirite? I'll rephrase the question I posed above- if carrying a pistol emboldens you to get into a confrontation you might otherwise avoid and you consequently get knocked on your ass but, since your adversary apparently didn't hit especially hard and/or didn't think to take away your weapon while he was gripping your head with both hands smashing it softly into the concrete (if it were Trayvon M he could have used what according to GZ's description must have been an undisclosed prehensile tail), did carrying the pistol really make you safer? Or did you just get lucky after getting into situation that could have gone horribly wrong? (For you- obviously the incident under discussion above went horribly and unnecessarily wrong for someone and his family.)

[Boon Mee]

Remember, only trained Police Officers and Law Enforcement Officials are qualified to own guns:

Eyewitness: CA Officer Fatally Shot Unarmed Homeless Man After He Called Her ‘B**ch.’

Note that her name isn’t included in the story. Why not?

Police State or what?

[Morden]

Remember, only trained Police Officers and Law Enforcement Officials are qualified to own guns:

Eyewitness: CA Officer Fatally Shot Unarmed Homeless Man After He Called Her ‘B**ch.’

Note that her name isn’t included in the story. Why not?

Police State or what?

The cops over there seem to be as crazy as some of the civilians.

[robuzo]

Cops lose or have guns taken from them, happens not too infrequently- why would anyone think a civilian would not be orders of magnitude more likely to lose his or hers:
(This cop could be one of Springfield's finest) Cop Who Fell Asleep in Patrol Car Loses Loaded Gun | NBC 10 Philadelphia
(Left the dang thing on the bumper, drove away) Officer Loses Gun In Police Parking Lot - Philadelphia News, Weather and Sports from WTXF FOX 29
(Lost it to an 18-year-old, as by rights Zimmerman could easily have lost his to Martin) Beaverton police officer whose gun was taken from him named in court records | OregonLive.com

There are circumstances under which carrying a firearm might make you safer, but not usually. Carrying a pistol didn't make Zimmerman safer, he still got decked and roughed up and was simply lucky not to lose his gun (going strictly by his story*, if you buy it). In the case of most civilians carrying a concealed firearm provides an illusion of security that is likely cause the arms-bearer to get into more trouble than he otherwise would, with often disastrous consequences. I actually considered getting a concealed carry permit after being chased by two enormous Rottweilers while I out on my bicycle (I cycle everywhere, almost never using my car for local travel/shopping, and while I often cycle through very rough black neighborhoods, I've only ever had trouble from white males; lots of cyclist-haters in Flawda). I decided against it because it isn't worth the hassle of worrying about the gun plus the added responsibility- the trouble it can cause is not worth the risk. Plus it would be useless when cycling to-from pub; can't drink at all while carrying. The chain lock or the monkey wrench in the saddle bag will have to do. Not to mention, since my young son has started traveling back to FL with me, all my guns are locked up, in the closet either with trigger locks attached or disassembled.

For some reason open carry is illegal in Florida, while concealed is not; if GZ had been brandishing his weapon when he pursued Martin he would have been breaking the law. A gun is usually worthless unless it is out before the assault begins; wait until you get hit, as Zimmerman claims he did, and you've waited too long. Again, I want to know, how in most cases does concealed carry make you safer? It clearly did not in GZ's case (*again).