Ukraine war mega thread

[bsnub]

You're just plain dumb snub- real, real dumb. Just as they want you to be.

I think the consensus on this forum would be the opposite, Mister this war will never happen.

What is the point debating you- reality is happening right there on the ground, and after a while even your MSM has to admit it.

What is happening is that the Russians have hardly advanced in the last two weeks and are suffering horrible rates of attrition and massive casualties. Reality hurts, and I seem to have struck a nerve.

You are clearly agitated when your alternate reality comes tumbling down.

[pickel]

Adam Zivo: No, Ukraine does not have a neo-Nazi problem

'If you want to know the truth, ask us. We’re here. We’re on the front line and we know better'
Author of the article:
Adam Zivo
Publishing date:
May 01, 2022 • 1 day ago • 4 minute read

KYIV, Ukraine — Ever since Ukrainians freed themselves from Russian domination in the 2014 Euromaidan protests, Russian President Vladimir Putin has been smearing Ukraine as a bastion of fascism and neo-Nazism. Putin even justified his full-scale invasion of Ukraine as “de-Nazification.” Despite overwhelming evidence that the Nazi narrative is hollow propaganda, many continue to believe it. Those who do should try actually speaking to Ukrainians — it would help them realize how ridiculous their beliefs are.

Accusations of Ukraine’s supposed fascism mostly rely on an obsession with the Azov Battalion, a group within the Ukrainian National Guard that has previously described itself as pro-Nazi. The Azov Battalion is undeniably problematic and it’s understandable that photos of its members posing with Nazi flags have been circulated by Ukraine’s critics.

However, the Azov Battalion is only one of 50 battalions operating in Ukraine and its personnel constitute less than one per cent of Ukraine’s military. Meanwhile, Ukrainian far-right groups have consistently secured less than five per cent of election votes since 2014 and, just last September, Ukraine’s parliament approved a new law banning anti-Semitism, which was signed by President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, who is Jewish.

So, on one hand, you have a problematic but ultimately marginal battalion, and then, on the other hand, you have the votes of millions of Ukrainians, as well as the corresponding seat distribution and legislative record within Ukraine’s parliament. Given the balance of evidence, only a fool would believe the Nazi myth.

Despite this, Russia continues to fanatically uphold the Azov Battalion as evidence of widespread fascism, which, if anything, reinforces how flimsy its case is. If Nazism were such a huge issue in Ukraine, presumably Putin and his allies would have more examples to trot around.

Yet many on the far right and far left have accepted Ukrainian Nazism as a fact — because in any war, one can find useful idiots. The far right has been more of an issue in the United States, where extremists such as U.S Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene and media pundit Candace Owens have consistently parroted Kremlin myths.

In Canada, the far left has been more of an issue. In February, a handful of NDP MPs were criticized for amplifying Russian propaganda. Meanwhile, Canada’s radical leftists maintain an insular ecosystem of alternative facts, buoyed by niche online media publications and social media bubbles.

As an example, Davide Mastracci, managing editor of Passage, wrote a lengthy article exaggerating the influence of Nazis in the Ukrainian military. He has since compared criticism of the Ukraine Nazi myth to Holocaust denial.

As someone who has been reporting in Ukraine for about four weeks so far, the persistence of the Nazi myth among some Canadians has been both perplexing and irritating. By this point, I’ve had lengthy conversations with dozens of people on the ground — refugees, aid workers, rights activists, international volunteers, local reporters, everyday Ukrainians and so on. I have over 125 pages of interview transcriptions, which represent only a portion of my recorded interviews. Not once has anyone, at any point, raised Nazism as a serious issue in Ukraine.

While here, I’ve prioritized engaging with minority populations — for example, interviewing Indian and African refugees, as well as LGBTQ Ukrainians (I write for an LGBTQ publication in addition to the National Post). As a byproduct of my LGBTQ connections, I’ve often engaged with Ukrainians working in the cultural sector — writers, photographers, DJs, visual artists and the like.

All of these populations are particularly sensitive to Nazis — and yet, whenever I’ve brought the Nazi narrative up, every single person, without exception, has reacted with anger or exasperation. Many cannot believe that this is still being debated.

“It’s not true. No one is fact-checking and no one is asking us what’s going on. If you want to know the truth, ask us. We’re here. We’re on the front line and we know better,” said Lenny Emson, who is trans and the Executive Director of Kyiv Pride. He continued, “We feel like we are not being heard — like our voices are being silenced by Russian propaganda.”

As I sat in a car heading towards the towns north of Kyiv, talking with volunteers who were cleaning kindergartens vandalized by Russian soldiers, I asked about Nazism in Ukraine. Everyone became livid. “How can people judge, or tell me what’s up in my country, when they’re a thousand miles away?” said Anastasiia Tkachyk, a volunteer in her twenties.

In Lviv, I spoke with two gay Nigerians who had been living in Ukraine for approximately a decade. Neither of them saw Nazism as a significant problem. In fact, both felt that Ukraine had become far more tolerant of minorities since 2014 (when Putin alleges that fascists took over) as Ukrainians sharply veered towards European values. This view is mirrored by the other LGBTQ locals I’ve met. It seems that not only is Putin’s Nazi myth untrue, it’s diametrically opposed to reality.

But, who knows, maybe Ukraine is infested with special phantom Nazis, who control the government and populace while simultaneously being invisible to Ukraine’s ballot boxes, foreign aid workers, civil society actors and minority populations.

Many people have strong beliefs about Ukraine’s political climate. If these beliefs aren’t responsive to facts, such as voting numbers, then hopefully the lived experiences of people actually in Ukraine, especially those most sensitive to Nazism, might make a difference. These people are viscerally experiencing this war and just want to be heard — so listen when they speak.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/ada...o-nazi-problem

[sabang]

.... Independence activists declared the creation of two new autonomous states, the Donetsk and Lugansk People’s Republics. In turn, the new anti-Russian Ukrainian government in Kiev, with abundant Western military support and weapons, launched a brutal war against these breakaway republics – an assault which has gone on ever since.

As it has unfolded, upwards of 14,000 of Ukrainians were killed, and hundreds of thousands more were displaced – all before the Russian invasion commenced on February 24th.

Moreover, the manner in which the two new breakaway republics armed themselves for combat against Kiev’s forces tells you all you need to know about the deep divisions in the Ukrainian polity – fissures which were instantly brought to the surface by the Maidan coup.

According to Jacques Baud, a NATO adviser to Ukraine during that period, the breakaway Republic fighters got their arms mainly from defecting Ukrainian units, not Russia!

Folks, when entire military units defect with their arms and fighting wherewithal, you are not dealing with minor differences of opinion among a nation’s population; it’s a sign of deep and likely irreconcilable strife. As Baud has further noted,

In 2014, I (was) at NATO, responsible for the fight against the proliferation of small arms, and we (were) trying to detect Russian arms deliveries to the rebels in order to see if Moscow (was) involved.

The rebels are armed thanks to the defections of Russian-speaking Ukrainian units which cross over to the rebel side. As the Ukrainian failures progressed, the entire tank, artillery or anti-aircraft battalions swelled the ranks of the autonomists. This is what (drove) the Ukrainians to commit to the Minsk Accords.

Just after signing the Minsk 1 Accords in September 2014, however, then Ukrainian President and corrupt oligarch, Petro Poroshenko, launched a vast anti-terrorist operation against the Donbas. But poorly advised by NATO officers, the Ukrainians suffered a crushing defeat at Debaltsevo, which forced them to commit to the Minsk 2 Agreements in February 2015.

As it happened, these Agreements provided for neither the separation nor the independence of the Republics, but their autonomy within the framework of Ukraine. That is, the ultimate status of the republics was to be negotiated between Kiev and the representatives of the republics, for an internal solution to the crisis of Ukraine’s split polity.

But this was not to be. Instead, the post-coup Kiev government waged a brutal civil war against the Donbas for eight years. This attack was resisted by Russian-speaking Ukrainians who were deathly afraid of being ruled by the neo-Nazi elements which permeated the Kiev government, military and security forces (SBU).

(Longer reads, for those interested and capable)- NATO Put Ukraine on the Path to Partition - Antiwar.com Original

In Praise of Partition - Antiwar.com Original


So, all you Nato groupies, you should be happy that Russia and Ukraine are at war, and Ukrainians are dying in thousands for your cause.

[bsnub]

Spewing the pro Russian propaganda crap narrative over and over like the good little puppet you are.

[pickel]

^^
Mariupol is almost entirely Russian speakers. Do you seriously think they feel "liberated"?

[sabang]

David Stockmanski, no less. I guess the Reagan admin were totally pro-Russian.

Mariupol is overwhelmingly pro-Russian- that includes the 120,000 strong Greek speaking community.

[harrybarracuda]

David Stockmanski, no less. I guess the Reagan admin were totally pro-Russian.

Mariupol is overwhelmingly pro-Russian- that includes the 120,000 strong Greek speaking community.

You think it's pro-Russian now you imbecile?

[pickel]

David Stockmanski, no less. I guess the Reagan admin were totally pro-Russian.

Mariupol is overwhelmingly pro-Russian- that includes the 120,000 strong Greek speaking community.

No idea about who that is. Russian speaking does not mean pro Russian.

You didn't answer my question. Do you think they feel "liberated"?

[pickel]

Mariupol the day before the invasion. They don't sound like they wanted "liberation".

‘Mariupol won’t give up’: Ukrainians defy Russian invasion threat | Russia-Ukraine war News | Al Jazeera

[sabang]

It always was pro-Russian. I think they feel a bit bombed out right now. Wouldn't you? The steelworks troglodytes are just a side show, of no material relevance.
The city is heavily damaged, a new council administration has been appointed, it has been accepted into the Donetsk republic, and reconstruction is already commencing.
The so called but ex-mayor and his cronies fled to Kiev back in February. He's like President Guiado of Venezuela- a meaningless babbler. But they need the laughs in Mariupol.

^ Not by any chance selective media pickle? I mean this war is being totally objectively reported by the western press, surely? Free media, right?

Agreed- Russian speaking does not necessarily mean pro-Russian. Many non-Russians in Ukraine still speak Russian as their lingua franca, and not all ethnic Russians want to be part of Russia anyway. Given it's population decline, not all Ukrainians want to be part Ukraine either.

[pickel]

Still dodging the question.

[bsnub]

Still dodging the question.

Because answering it would bring his entire fantasist house of cards crashing to pieces.

[pickel]

^ Not by any chance selective media pickle? I mean this war is being totally objectively reported by the western press, surely? Free media, right?

Okay then, since you think anything other than what comes out of Putins mouth to be trash. Do you believe, since the invasion, there are more, or fewer pro Russians in Mariupol (including those who have been evacuated)?

[Buckaroo Banzai]

However, the Azov Battalion is only one of 50 battalions operating in Ukraine

I agree ,One fiftieth of the battalions being explicitly Nazi is not a problem, It is after all the norm around the world. What national leader has control of 100% of it's military?

[sabang]

^^ I do not know. Not aware I have ever quoted Vlad here actually, my prime sources are known as the Realist school of foreign relations, and they have warned of this debacle, or the escalating risk of it, for years.

[bsnub]

Actually, prices in Russia have not gone up much at all,

That is total BS. Prices have gone way up and there is a ton of YT videos that show prices in stores and lots of empty shelves. But do push your bogus fantasist narrative.

the Ruble is stronger than it was before the invasion

It doesn't mean that Russians are not suffering, as it is a complex issue that you are trying to simplify.

I do not think this is hurting Russians as much as you hope.

I think Roman the Russian explains perfectly what is really going on...



My guess he knows better than you do.

[Switch]

^^ I do not know. Not aware I have ever quoted Vlad here actually, my prime sources are known as the Realist school of foreign relations, and they have warned of this debacle, or the escalating risk of it, for years.

Does not mean that those sources are accurate or provable. They are just opinions. Sometimes, people need to accept that they were wrong headed and change their opinions. You know like the one who convinced you that Russia would not invade Ukraine!

[HermantheGerman]

It's head and shoulders above what I'm reading in MSM, which is about the level of Twitter these days. Interesting to read about the mistake that was made early in the war too, sending lightly armored & protected columns into eastern Ukraine- for which they paid a heavy price. Classic case of underestimating ones adversary.

We ALL KNOW why you are a huge fan of him

Scott Ritter, chief inspector in Iraq in 1990s, masturbated in online chat with detective posing as underage girl. A former United Nations weapons inspector caught in an online sex sting has been found guilty of six charges, including unlawful contact with a minor, after exchanging explicit messages with a 15-year-old girl in an online chatroom and then performing a sex act on himself.

Former UN weapons inspector found guilty in online sex case | US news | The Guardian


"Only a sick mind would quote a sick mind"

[harrybarracuda]

Actually, prices in Russia have not gone up much at all, the Ruble is stronger than it was before the invasion, but.... you can no longer get a Happy Meal (KFC no problem though). I do not think this is hurting Russians as much as you hope.

Oh look, sabang is going for Hoohoo's village idiot title.

Russia’s annual inflation rate accelerated sharply to 16.7 percent in March of 2022, from 9.15 percent in the previous month, slightly below market forecasts of 16.9 percent. It was the highest reading since March of 2015, amid a sharp depreciation of the rouble as a consequence of Russia's invasion of Ukraine and economic sanctions imposed against the nation. Upward pressure came from prices of food (17.99 percent vs 11.46 percent in February), namely fruits and vegetables (34.83 percent vs 16.05 percent); non-food products (20.34 percent vs 8.96 percent) and services (9.94 percent vs 6.10 percent). On a monthly basis, prices jumped 7.61 percent, the steepest increase since 1999, below market expectations of a 7.8 percent rise.
Russia Inflation Rate - April 2022 Data - 1991-2021 Historical - May Forecast

[harrybarracuda]

Small comfort having a financial wizard like you in their side.

Financial wazzock more like.

[harrybarracuda]

It always was pro-Russian. I think they feel a bit bombed out right now. Wouldn't you? The steelworks troglodytes are just a side show, of no material relevance.
The city is heavily damaged, a new council administration has been appointed, it has been accepted into the Donetsk republic, and reconstruction is already commencing.
The so called but ex-mayor and his cronies fled to Kiev back in February. He's like President Guiado of Venezuela- a meaningless babbler. But they need the laughs in Mariupol.

^ Not by any chance selective media pickle? I mean this war is being totally objectively reported by the western press, surely? Free media, right?

Agreed- Russian speaking does not necessarily mean pro-Russian. Many non-Russians in Ukraine still speak Russian as their lingua franca, and not all ethnic Russians want to be part of Russia anyway. Given it's population decline, not all Ukrainians want to be part Ukraine either.

Fucking hell this is like one of Hoohoo's bullshit posts when he gets fucked over yet again.

[sabang]

Yeh sure 'arry- just like Syria, Venezuela, Iraq & Afghanistan right? How you gonna deal with this latest uncomfortable truth? Must be tough being you.


The war is not yet over, but Ukraine has already lost

BY ANDREW LATHAM, OPINION CONTRIBUTOR - 04/07/22 12:30 PM ET
THE VIEWS EXPRESSED BY CONTRIBUTORS ARE THEIR OWN AND NOT THE VIEW OF THE HILL


The war is not over yet, but the outcome is already clear. Ukraine has lost.

It pains me to say this, of course. Ukraine has fought a just war against an unjust – even barbaric – aggressor. And the country has fought well. Indeed, not only have the Ukrainians put up a better defensive fight than was generally expected in the run-up to the war, but they have taken the fight to the enemy, even pushing the Russians back on several fronts.

But Ukraine has lost the war nonetheless.

Why do I say this? Because, at the end of the day, Russia will have imposed its will on Ukraine while Ukraine will have achieved almost none of the goals – other than survival – it is pursuing on the battlefield and at the negotiating table.

That Russia will end up imposing its will on Ukraine now seems beyond reasonable doubt. Despite suffering terrible casualties and embarrassing battlefield setbacks, Moscow has already forced Kyiv to concede that NATO membership, and probably European Union (EU) membership too, is a non-starter. The separatist enclaves in Donetsk and Luhansk are in no danger of reverting to Ukrainian control, and the only question in the south of the country is how much territory will be added to the Crimean lands pried from Kyiv’s control in 2014.

Ukraine, on the other hand, will likely achieve almost none of its goals. To be sure, Ukraine will continue to inflict losses on the Russian forces, preventing them from taking Kyiv and other major cities and pushing them back here and there in successful, if limited, counter-offensives. But Kyiv will not achieve its operational-level objectives of expelling the Russians from all the territory it has lost since Feb. 24. It will not win a decisive battlefield victory that will vanquish once and for all the Russian invaders.

Mounting a spirited and capable defense is one thing; launching a major operational offensive is another. Ukraine has demonstrated that it can do the former, but there is no indication that it can launch and sustain the type of major combined-arms offensives required to drive the Russians out of those parts of occupied Ukraine that Moscow is really committed to holding.

Nor will Ukraine realize its main strategic objectives – the diplomatic-political goals it has been pursuing in fits and starts since the early-2000s but in earnest and consistently since 2014 – either on the battlefield or at the negotiating table. Not only will Ukraine not recover all the territory lost during the war; it will not re-establish sovereignty over territory lost in 2014. Nor will it definitively break with Russia and decisively accede to the West, either through NATO membership or association with the European Union.

None of this is going to happen. Russia is not willing to concede any of this. And as has already been amply demonstrated, Moscow gets a vote on Ukraine’s future. NATO leaders are not interested in this happening, fearing that if Russian President Vladimir Putin faces decisive defeat – that is, the realization of Ukraine’s main strategic goals – he might play the nuclear card in a final desperate bid to stave off disaster both for him and his country. And Ukraine’s president has already conceded that some form of neutrality is likely to be his country’s future, conceding one of Kyiv’s main strategic objectives.

To be sure, this doesn’t mean that the fighting will stop tomorrow. Getting to the inevitable outcome – which, to reiterate, will be a strategic defeat for Kyiv and a partial (and pyrrhic) victory for Russia – will take some time, and much additional bloodshed, yet. It is in the nature of such conflicts, however, that once a mutually hurting stalemate sets in, both sides will be forced to make difficult concessions, first in the service of agreeing a ceasefire and later, perhaps much later, in the service of a more permanent negotiated settlement.

But such a stalemate is already in sight, even if at the moment both sides continue to cling to the delusion that just one more push and victory will be theirs. The fighting will eventually end, or at least return to pre-war levels.

The hard part to swallow is that between now and then many more people will die, additional destruction will be wrought upon the land and lives of the people of Ukraine, more war-crimes will be perpetrated and much more suffering inflicted and endured — and all for nought. Perpetuating the fighting will yield few, if any, gains for either side. It may be the inescapable logic of such conflicts that they end in this way, pointlessly dragging in the pursuit of victory but at the inevitable expense of innocent people. But it is a bitter pill — one that’s very hard to swallow.

But here’s the truly bitter truth: In broad brush strokes at least, the most-likely post-war settlement is pretty much the same as the settlement that was on offer before the bloodletting began in earnest on Feb. 24. While Putin was the one who pulled the trigger that fateful day, and thus bears full moral responsibility for all that has happened since, there are many others who could have made different choices in the run-up to the war. Different choices could have resulted in a pre-war settlement that would have been almost indistinguishable from the most likely post-war settlement, minus only the untold death and destruction visited on Ukraine these past weeks and months. In that sense, and only in that limited sense, there’s plenty of blame to go around.

https://thehill.com/opinion/international/3261607-the-war-is-not-yet-over-but-ukraine-has-already-lost/


You can stay in Denial as long as you want. Ukraine is losing this war, and Nato has a severe case of egg on it's face. I doubt the Ukrainians will be thanking them when the dust settles. But hey, stay in Denial and impotently watch it unfold. What's a few thousand more Ukrainian lives between friends?

[bsnub]

While Putin was the one who pulled the trigger that fateful day, and thus bears full moral responsibility for all that has happened since, there are many others who could have made different choices in the run-up to the war. Different choices could have resulted in a pre-war settlement that would have been almost indistinguishable from the most likely post-war settlement, minus only the untold death and destruction visited on Ukraine these past weeks and months.

So more of the same crap to try and buttress your fledgling position that has been wrong from the start and continues to be so. The next month will spell out some harsh realities for you and your propaganda masters.

[sabang]

How ya gonna deal with the Truth snubs?

[bsnub]

How ya gonna deal with the Truth snubs?

The truth is what you are busy trying to obfuscate and suppress. You have become a useful idiot of the Russian propagandists. I am sorry to see you in such a state of decline.