Ukraine war mega thread

[OhOh]

My posts are generally in one thread "Eurasia Topics" whose visit numbers are currently appox 68,000. If a thread is started on a topic I will post in it.

most of us are willing to criticise our own countries

If you wish to critisise your own countries, current and previous, that's your choice.

posters such as Ohno, .... are either too scared

I would suggest "scared people" run away and hide.
.

posters such as Ohno, .... are just aren't very clever.

You may have different opinions on the thread to your alleged gang of 4 but generally, we reply with our or opinions of others, on the topic being discussed .

I suggest that posters who cannot reply to the thread topic but critisise the poster, are the "aren't very clever" group. Unfortunately the messenger is attacked. Wounded even, but lives to continue his quests.

Thus the message remains unscathed, standing bravely, chin set, awaiting the coup d'état that is never delivered.

Who has failed?

[Klondyke]

NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard

Michail Gorbachev discussing German unification with Hans-Dietrich Genscher and Helmut Kohl in Russia, July 15, 1990. Photo: Bundesbildstelle / Presseund Informationsamt der Bundesregierung.
Published: Dec 12, 2017

Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner

Slavic Studies Panel Addresses “Who Promised What to Whom on NATO Expansion?”

Washington D.C., December 12, 2017 – U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University (National Security Archive | 35+ Years of Freedom of Information Action).

The documents show that multiple national leaders were considering and rejecting Central and Eastern European membership in NATO as of early 1990 and through 1991, that discussions of NATO in the context of German unification negotiations in 1990 were not at all narrowly limited to the status of East German territory, and that subsequent Soviet and Russian complaints about being misled about NATO expansion were founded in written contemporaneous memcons and telcons at the highest levels.

The documents reinforce former CIA Director Robert Gates’s criticism of “pressing ahead with expansion of NATO eastward [in the 1990s], when Gorbachev and others were led to believe that wouldn’t happen.”[1] The key phrase, buttressed by the documents, is “led to believe.”

President George H.W. Bush had assured Gorbachev during the Malta summit in December 1989 that the U.S. would not take advantage (“I have not jumped up and down on the Berlin Wall”) of the revolutions in Eastern Europe to harm Soviet interests; but neither Bush nor Gorbachev at that point (or for that matter, West German Chancellor Helmut Kohl) expected so soon the collapse of East Germany or the speed of German unification.[2]

Read more
NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard | National Security Archive

[OhOh]

Let us deal with one Evil at a time

Nah, keep filling threads with general hubris.

most of us are willing to criticise our own countries and we regularly do so as a matter of course.

Off-topic, post in the appropriate thread. The back patting thread is ->

Shall we start with the Uyghurs?

Off-topic, post in the appropriate thread. It's ready and waiting for you.

[russellsimpson]

President George H.W. Bush had assured Gorbachev during the Malta summit in December 1989 that the U.S. would not take advantage (“I have not jumped up and down on the Berlin Wall”) of the revolutions in Eastern Europe to harm Soviet interests; but neither Bush nor Gorbachev at that point (or for that matter, West German Chancellor Helmut Kohl) expected so soon the collapse of East Germany or the speed of German unification.[2]

Those are all good points Klondyke. I'm going to do a little research on the Malta Summit.

I understand why there is so much anger around this entire issue and it sad, it could have worked out differently. It was a terrible lost opportunity to secure a measure of peace in our time. We'll never know exactly what went wrong, neither NATO nor the Russians are entirely without dirty and indeed blood on their hands. The Industrial Military complex which Eisenhauer spoke of is alive and well.(on both sides). Financial issues are always at the root of these issue regardless of the fancy rationaliztions from both side.

Both sides believe they are right of course.
Neither side is right, they are both wrong and the entire issue is sad and depressing.

[harrybarracuda]

There is no genocide of the Uyghurs, full stop.

You really are a stupid boy and should try and understand how genocide is defined:

Article Two of the UN genocide convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such":

• Killing members of the group
• Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
• Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
• Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
• Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide-convention.shtml

Now please try and stop demonstrating your complete ignorance in every post.

[harrybarracuda]

My posts are generally in one thread "Eurasia Topics"

And long may it last.

[HermantheGerman]

Pig Face Putin has a problem when he looks in the mirror. Besides the fact that he is ugly as shit, his slanted eyes remind him constantly that his babushka was raped by the Mongol Horde (1240 A.D. to 1480 A.D.)
Why is Putin still afraid of the horde? Why is he locking himself up in a fortress called the Kremlin (like his ancestors ) ? Well, maybe Putin should ask himself why these former east block countries chose to join the NATO horde voluntarily.
Russians have a tendency to live in the past, get drunk, sing sad songs and wonder why nobody likes them.

“Russia is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.” – Winston Churchill

[harrybarracuda]

Why is Putin still afraid of the horde?

Probably because they'd want their billions of dollars back.

[Klondyke]

There's a quite obvious mistake in your first sentence that the party would be most unhappy about: the "nice bottle of Aussie riesling" wouldn't be allowed in any Communist country (unless it was for the elite, who are more equal than others).

Forgive me my nosiness, please disclose to us where did you obtain your knowledge about circumstances in "Communist countries"?

I am really astonished that you know who is (was) allowed to drink which kind of wine...

[hallelujah]

I am really astonished ..

Yes, we know- day to day life is clearly a struggle with the amount of wondering you do.

Along with your other faults, you're also deficient in the humour department.

[hallelujah]

My posts are generally in one thread "Eurasia Topics" whose visit numbers are currently appox 68,000. If a thread is started on a topic I will post in it.


If you wish to critisise your own countries, current and previous, that's your choice.


I would suggest "scared people" run away and hide.
.
You may have different opinions on the thread to your alleged gang of 4 but generally, we reply with our or opinions of others, on the topic being discussed .

I suggest that posters who cannot reply to the thread topic but critisise the poster, are the "aren't very clever" group. Unfortunately the messenger is attacked. Wounded even, but lives to continue his quests.

Thus the message remains unscathed, standing bravely, chin set, awaiting the coup d'état that is never delivered.

Who has failed?

Yet more waffle. Show us a balanced opinion one day and you'll be taken seriously. Until that time, you'll have no respect and will merely be thought of as a brainwashed fool by the majority of the board.

[Klondyke]

We'll never know exactly what went wrong, neither NATO nor the Russians are entirely without dirty and indeed blood on their hands.

So, how do you understand the declaration: "not an inch eastwards"? And what's the reality?
Such unprecedented withdrawal of huge armies... Can you recall any such similar example in history?

Perhaps now in Afghanistan?
BTW, CNN does not agree... Actually, what's the CNN anyway? Corporations are now deciding wars?

Concerns mount that US withdrawal from Afghanistan could risk progress on women's rights
By Jennifer Hansler, CNN
Sat April 10, 2021
Concerns mount that US withdrawal from Afghanistan could risk progress on women's rights - CNNPolitics

Neither side is right, they are both wrong and the entire issue is sad and depressing

"Neither side is right".
It reminds me when - exceptionally - Israel is to be criticized, we are said, the others are also bad...
Similarly: "It was not fair to Iraq, however, Saddam was also not so good..."
Haven't we read here: "For Libya it was not fair, however, the Gaddafi was a butcher..."
Even now: "9 min. necklock was ugly, but he was drug addict anyway".

So, knowing the facts, what's your stance to "not an inch eastwards"?
Being promised and being "led to believe"...

The Coming War on China
John Pilger
The Coming War on China, from award winning journalist John Pilger, reveals what the news doesn’t – that the world’s greatest military power, the United States, and the world’s second economic power, China, both nuclear-armed, may well be on the road to war.

Nuclear war is not only imaginable, but planned. The greatest build-up of NATO military forces since the Second World War is under way on the western borders of Russia. On the other side of the world, the rise of China is viewed in Washington as a threat to American dominance.

To counter this, President Obama announced a ‘pivot to Asia’, which meant that almost two-thirds of all US naval forces would be transferred to Asia and the Pacific, their weapons aimed at China. A policy which has been taken up by his successor Donald Trump, who during his election campaign said “We can’t continue to allow China to rape our country and that’s what they’re doing”.

Filmed on five possible front-lines across Asia and the Pacific over two years, the story is told in chapters that connect a secret and ‘forgotten’ past to the rapacious actions of great power today and to a resistance, of which little is known in the West.


(But the film is few years old, perhaps since that it has changed? To better?)

[russellsimpson]

Along with your other faults, you're also deficient in the humour department.

actually,

Forgive me my nosiness, please disclose to us where did you obtain your knowledge about circumstances in "Communist countries"?

I am really astonished that you know who is (was) allowed to drink which kind of wine...

This is humour. Very dry of course, too dry for most.

Sorry for the interruption.

[Backspin]

Pencil necked putz Blinkin weighed in on the sunday shows

Secretary of State Antony Blinken on Sunday said "it would be serious mistake" for China to strike at Taiwan and expressed "real concerns" about Russia's massing of forces on the border with Ukraine.


In addressing concerns about America's two great Cold War rivals, Blinken stopped short of promising U.S. military intervention — "I'm not going to get into hypotheticals" — but did vow there would be "consequences."



Blinken warns China, Russia about military action - POLITICO

[Backspin]

In both cases, it is the US thousands of miles from home, pushing up against historic respective lands of China and Russia. The US wanted to take Crimea because it is the prized geopolitical asset of the region. Same with Taiwan.

[russellsimpson]

Hey, I got some nice beachfront land in Arizona for sale

Is it close to Tuscon and how much per acre? Feel free to message me with particulars.

Drink the Kool-Aide!

[panama hat]

Show us a balanced opinion one day and you'll be taken seriously. Until that time, you'll have no respect and will merely be thought of as a brainwashed fool by the majority of the board.

That about sums it up . . . luckily we have Skidmark to amuse us:

The US wanted to take Crimea because it is the prized geopolitical asset of the region

Ah, bless . . .

[hallelujah]

actually,





This is humour. Very dry of course, too dry for most.

It's not.

[Backspin]

That about sums it up . . . luckily we have Skidmark to amuse us:


Ah, bless . . .

There is a reason why the US dept of the navy was putting up tenders for work in Crimea in 2013. It was basically a done deal. Overthrow the current govt, put together your own and Crimea is yours.

[Klondyke]

Originally Posted by Klondyke
And results of Ukraine Mejdan 2014? Instead of erecting a Navy base (not of Russia, not of Ukraine) on Crimea, the Crimeans gained their independence...

Can you clarify that?

Russ, perhaps you can assume...
E.g. the link about the generous renovation of school in Sevastopol can help...

Otherwise, do you think that the kind Google will tell you something unpleasant nowadays? Even 7 years ago you would not find much...

Western powers regret not building NATO naval base in Crimea — Russian foreign minister

Sergey Lavrov said that nothing could be done about this as "such is the course of history, such is the will of the Crimean people"

GENEVA, November 28. /TASS/. Western powers regret that they did not have enough time to build a NATO naval base in Crimea before the 2014 referendum, when the Crimean people expressed their desire to become of Russia, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov stated on Wednesday after talks with his Swiss counterpart Ignazio Cassis.
Western powers regret not building NATO naval base in Crimea — Russian foreign minister - World - TASS

DISINFO: NATO PLANNED TO TURN CRIMEA INTO ITS MILITARY BASE
SUMMARY
NATO admitted that it intended to turn the annexed Crimea into its huge naval base. The North Atlantic Alliance chatted about how the future of the peninsula would have developed if Crimea had not become part of Russia.

DISPROOF
EU vs DISINFORMATION

So, when the blue prints for Sevastopol could not be realized, something similar is made near Odessa. And who cares who is the owner?

U.S. Upgrades Ukrainian Ports To Fit American Warships
Paul McLeary, Breaking Defense July 4, 2019
https://www.realcleardefense.com/201...ps_308821.html

[panama hat]

A new hip hasn't curbed Klondyke's fervour . . . good to see.

[Klondyke]

Why is he locking himself up in a fortress called the Kremlin

Why he does not open his fortress as his friends' fortress in Capitol D.C.?

[russellsimpson]

One point credited to Klondyke.

[Backspin]

Pig Face Putin has a problem when he looks in the mirror. Besides the fact that he is ugly as shit,ll

Putin calendar sales surpassing those of Japanese stars in Japan

TOKYO The current leader in 2019 calendar sales at a popular chain store in Japan is not a fresh-faced young idol, nor is it a sexy heart-throb actor. Rather, Vladimir Putin, the 66-year-old president of Russia, takes the cake in that category. That’s right, the very same exercise buff that also has claim to a fragrance in his home country and a manga in Japan is currently contributing to an unprecedented number of calendar sales in a foreign country.


The Putin-dedicated calendars are being sold by Loft, a popular Japanese store that sells miscellaneous household and everyday goods. The company reports that it began selling a variety of “famous people” 2019 calendars back in September, and Putin’s sales have continuously dominated all others throughout its nationwide locations. Loft actually began selling Putin calendars three years ago based on their popularity in Russia
It has also been reported that a recent explosion of self-proclaimed “Putin fans,” or young women with a feverish zeal for the foreign leader, are the ones responsible for propelling these calendar sales to the top. Livedoor News quoted many of the women as saying that they find something attractive about the former KGB intelligence officer and president at the forefront of many controversial policies.

[Backspin]

Good Biden.

Rumor is that Biden might appoint Matthew Rojansky as his Russia advisor. This would be a solid pick. Rojansky is a realist and supports negotiation.

The Russophobes and war hawks are already in full meltdown mode. Rojanskys Twitter account is already locked presumably because of that. Sigh