Ukraine war mega thread

[bsnub]

I've never understand the American fascination with Patton, nobody else actually gives a shit about "old blood and guts."

Who is no one else? A hoser like you and some Brits still butt hurt that Monty was always chasing Patton and never quite catching him.

I am not too fond of Patton to be honest. Patton was a fascist to say the least. I am much more fond of Eisenhower who I personally think was the best post-war president.

[sabang]

I like Eisenhower too. Considered both Patton and Monty to be egotistical, prissy little martinets tbh, although I think (as usual) you are getting your version of 'history' a bit too much from Hollywood- yes, George C Scott played a magnificent Patton but it's a damn movie, not history or a biography. Lets just say, in real life Patton died in ignominy, and leave it at that. Some speculation actually that he was offed by the OSS- precursor to the CIA.

[russellsimpson]

^^ and ^

Agree with all sentiments here expressed.

[Klondyke]

He was reprimanded...

Officially, while publicised. Do we know how many fights the two of them had had?

[Klondyke]

George C Scott played a magnificent Patton but it's a damn movie, not history or a biography.

Yes, we know a lot about history from the magnificent movies...
I guess that the summary of the running times of all war movies had overtaken multiple times the running time of the war...

[Klondyke]

Appears Russian troops are finished their "exercise" and going home.
Wonder why?

Also why the warships heading to Ukraine were suddenly ordered to make a turn 180o?

Perhaps it can be taken in conjunction with the phone discussion of the two leaders, when also the Lukashenko case was brought up by the dangerous Mr.P.?
What was the reaction some sources disclosed? (gurgling?)

[Backspin]

That is not why he was reprimanded by Eisenhower. You are a bot and an idiot.

He was "reprimanded" for being a loose cannon. Nobody felt like having another war at the time

[lom]

Officially, while publicised. Do we know how many fights the two of them had had?

Don't you think it is quite pointless to speculate in how many more fights they had when we don't know if they had any other?

[sabang]

His last 'command' was in charge of researchers and librarians, no armed soldiers. Consider the insult. He was more despised by US Generals than the brits, who had largely forgotten him. Bit of a sad tale really, certainly when compared to the upwards trajectory of one Field Marshall Viscount Montgomery. Neither bloke really deserved it.

[Backspin]

Patton hated civilian life. He was going to have a hard time transitioning. So he wanted to start a war with the Soviets. They could have put him in a box and let him loose in Korea. Or Vietnam

[OhOh]

Putin recites the distribution of power in central Europe

April 26, 2021 by M. K. BHADRAKUMAR

Russian military’s armoured vehicles roll into landing vessels after drill in Crimea, Black Sea, April 23, 2021

"The Colossus in modern European history with whom Russian President Vladimir Putin would draw comparison might be Otto von Bismarck, the first Chancellor of the German Empire who unified his country out of the scattered pieces. Putin is very familiar with German history, culture, society.

Such analogies would always have limitations, but the similarities are striking insofar as Bismarck and Putin share an innate conservatism and immutable belief in a God who agreed with them on all issues and a zeal to defend the existing social and political order in order to prevent a Hobbesian chaos of all against all — and, yet, they cannot by any reckoning be seen as backwoods reactionaries, either, out of touch with the dynamic forces of their turbulent eras.

Thus, it is important to understand the seemingly routine statement by Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu last Thursday announcing the decision to wrap up the Russian troops’ surprise combat readiness checks in the Southern and Western Military Districts. There was much speculation in the West that a Russian invasion of Ukraine was in the cards.

Therefore, Shoigu’s remarks came as a bit of anti-climax, creating confusion and mood swing in the West. However, as the dust settles down, the West is grudgingly realising that Putin has brilliantly outmanoeuvred the US and NATO. The paradox is that the fears of an imminent Russian invasion, stoked by the large build-up of forces on Ukraine’s eastern border and additional forces sent to Crimea, also generated a sense of realism in the western mind that neither the US nor NATO is in any position to go to war with Russia for the defence of Ukraine.

Equally, Ukraine also has sobered up and realises that it is foolhardy to poke the Russian bear on the vague premise that the western powers would come to its help if push comes to shove. After hearing about Shoigu’s announcement, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy promptly wrote on his twitter account that he welcomed “any steps to decrease the military presence and de-escalate the situation in Donbas.”

Of course, the Russian build-up was unnerving. The estimates of troops vary from around 40,000 new troops largely stationed in the city of Voronezh, some 130 km from Ukraine’s border, to the European Union’s higher estimate of 100,000 troops. Analysts agree that this Russian build-up has been the largest since 2014.

Notwithstanding Moscow’s varying explanations of the deployment — that it was reacting to a build-up by Ukrainian troops in eastern Ukraine; that it was reacting to threatening behaviour by NATO forces; and, that the troops were simply on an unscheduled exercise — in the final analysis, it has turned out to be “a bit of geopolitical theatre designed to put pressure on Kyiv and at the same time send a very strong signal to Washington that Russia could, and would, cause a lot of trouble,” as an incisive western analyst noted.

Shoigu has ordered that the troop withdrawal should be completed before the traditional May Day festivities. To quote him, “By May 1, 2021, the personnel of the 58th Army of the Southern Military District, the 41st Army of the Central Military District, the 7th, 76th Airborne Assault and 98th Airborne Divisions of the airborne troops (will have returned) to their permanent deployment points.”

But then, Shoigu also decided that the heavy armour of the 41st Army will remain close to the border with Ukraine “in case something happens” until the Zapod 2021 annual large-scale military exercises due in September. Also, the 56 VDV brigade (Vozdushno-desantnye voyska Rossii or the Russian Airborne Forces) will stay in Crimea to reform itself into a regiment that will henceforth be based there permanently!

The Zapod (Zapod in Russian means “west”) is an annual military exercise which simulates Russian forces defending the motherland against attack from the West, the traditional invasion route, and involves the mobilisation of all the three main battle groups along the entire western front. Plainly put, it is a formidable display of Russian military might along its border with NATO to be duly noted in Brussels.

The pullback signifies Putin’s willingness to hold a summit meeting with the US president Joe Biden, as the latter proposed in a phone call recently. Meanwhile, Pentagon has given up its belligerent posturing by cancelling the deployment of two warships with cruise missiles to the Black Sea and UK too has apparently dropped its plan to send another warship to the Black Sea. Again, a diplomatic row with Moscow that was kickstarted by the US and British intelligence with Czech Republic as their surrogate also fizzled out with Prague washing its hands of it.

To cap it all, today, the Kremlin has thrown down the gauntlet at Washington, claiming it has “all the necessary proofs” regarding a coup attempt against Belarus president Alexander Lukashenka to overthrow the government and eliminate him physically.

The Biden administration has been left in no doubt that Putin has drawn new “red lines”, which should be taken seriously. In a major speech in Moscow on April 22, Putin said, “We really do not want to burn bridges. But if someone mistakes our good intentions for indifference or weakness and intends to burn down or even blow up these bridges, they should know that Russia’s response will be asymmetrical, swift and tough… I hope that no one will think about crossing the “red line” with regard to Russia. We ourselves will determine in each specific case where it will be drawn.”

What comes to mind is Bismarck’s practice of using radical means in the service of his own conservative ends. Europe took time to realise after the famous Battle of Koniggratz (1866) that Bismarck had transformed the distribution of power in central Europe and that Austria, the dominant power in Central Europe for centuries, was reduced to secondary status. Similarly, the massive Russian manoeuvring on Ukraine’s border and the Crimea in the recent weeks have underscored that Moscow has overwhelming military superiority to squash any foolish adventure by the Ukrainian authorities to change the status quo in Donbass or Crimea.

The failure on the part of the Biden administration to recognise this reality is “reflective of the suicidal hubris and arrogance that has gripped what passes for an understanding of modern-day Russia” in Washington, as Scott Ritter, a former US Marine Corps intelligence officer and author, wrote recently.

The French public resented the Prussian victory at Konniggratz and its demand for “revenge” formed part of the narrative that led to the Franco-Prussian War of 1870, which itself was caused primarily by France’s determination to restore its dominant position in continental Europe. Historians cannot agree whether Bismarck deliberately provoked the French into declaring war on Prussia or he merely exploited the circumstances as they unfolded.

At any rate, while Putin has stated that war is not his preferred option, he stressed that his “red lines” are not to be crossed, and that it is Russia who will determine “in each specific case where it will be drawn.”

The distribution of power in central Europe has transformed. "

https://www.indianpunchline.com/puti...entral-europe/

[OhOh]

Neither Moscow nor Vatican received Zelensky’s proposal for meeting with Putin — Kremlin


28 Apr, 17:48

"The Ukrainian leader earlier said in an interview with Italy’s La Repubblica newspaper that the Vatican could be the perfect place for the Donbass peace talks.

Neither Moscow nor the Vatican has received any official proposal from Kiev for holding a meeting between Presidents Vladimir Putin of Russia and Vladimir Zelensky of Ukraine in the Vatican, Kremlin Spokesman Dmitry Peskov told reporters on Wednesday. "President Zelensky said that it would be the perfect place for such a meeting. However, neither the Vatican nor Russia has official information on the matter. We haven’t received specific information about the proposal," Peskov pointed out.

Meanwhile the Kremlin spokesman is unaware if the Russian president will meet with his Ukrainian counterpart anywhere other than in Moscow. "I don’t know if he is ready to travel anywhere," Peskov told reporters on Wednesday. "We all proceed from what President Putin said and since we are not a party to the conflict, there is no need to discuss Donbass issues, peace efforts, with us. It should be discussed within the four-member group. Putin pointed out that should Zelensky be willing to discuss bilateral relations, he is welcome to Moscow," the Kremlin spokesman noted.

Moscow and Kiev cannot tackle the issue of settling the Donbass conflict, since Russia is not a side in this struggle, nevertheless, they should find common ground on this matter, the spokesman pointed out.

"The matter of Donbass cannot be resolved between Kiev and Moscow, because Russia is not a side in this conflict," the spokesman stressed. "But in any case, we need to find common ground. The president [of Russia Vladimir Putin] has confirmed his readiness for dialogue many times."

Commenting on the statement by Ukrainian President Vladimir Zelensky, in which he expressed his desire "to discuss peace with Putin," Peskov noted that striving for peace "should be wholeheartedly supported." "But the thing is that Ukraine and Russia have never been at war, thank God. Although Ukraine has damaged our bilateral relations significantly," the spokesman pointed out. "It seems that such political will prevails in Kiev."

"Work towards peace should be carried out in Ukraine itself. Russia is taking part in the Normandy Four with the aim of aiding this process," Peskov concluded.

On April 20, Zelensky offered Putin to meet in Donbass. Putin said on April 22 that as for discussing the problems of Donbass, the Ukrainian leadership should meet, first and foremost, with the heads of the self-proclaimed Donbass republics. At the same time, the Russian president pointed out that he was ready to welcome Zelensky in Moscow to discuss bilateral relations. The Ukrainian president announced on Monday that he had ordered chief of the presidential staff Andrei Yermak to organize his meeting with Putin.

Zelensky earlier said in an interview with Italy’s La Repubblica newspaper that the Vatican could be the perfect place for the Donbass peace talks. Vatican diplomatic sources said that Zelensky had not discussed his proposal of holding a meeting with Russian leader Vladimir Putin in the Vatican with the Holy See."

Neither Moscow nor Vatican received Zelensky’s proposal for meeting with Putin — Kremlin - Russian Politics & Diplomacy - TASS

[russellsimpson]

Bless you OhOh for I did not to bump this thread myself.

[sabang]

A very good article actually, from 2016. Ya reckon Vlad is bad, and anti-western boohoo? His only credible opposition is much more so. Be careful what you wish for:-


Twelve days after NATO’s expansion, NATO abandoned its status as a solely ‘defensive alliance’ by bombing Serbia without a UN mandate.

Henry Kissinger warned: ‘The transformation of the NATO alliance from a defensive military grouping to an institution prepared to impose its values by force... undercut repeated American and allied assurances that Russia had nothing to fear from NATO expansion’. Yeltsin’s policies and platform was lost and only radical alternatives remained.

The simplified narrative that Putin reversed the policies of his predecessor neglects that he was deliberately put in power by Yeltsin to reform the untenable pro-Western policies. Yeltsin stepped down on 31 December 1999, three months before the presidential elections, to give his prime minister, Vladimir Putin, the advantage of being the incumbent. After demonstrating his ability to reform the failed policies of Yeltsin, Putin defeated the head of the Communist Party, his main rival for the presidency.

Putin: Russia’s last ‘pro-Western’ alternative (lowyinstitute.org)

Worth reading in full.

[russellsimpson]

Putin said on April 22 that as for discussing the problems of Donbass, the Ukrainian leadership should meet, first and foremost, with the heads of the self-proclaimed Donbass republics.

One has to admit that Putin is a cagey character, he plays chess, Zelensky checkers.

Zelensky earlier said in an interview with Italy’s La Repubblica newspaper that the Vatican could be the perfect place for the Donbass peace talks.

Why ? What the hell does the Vatican have to do with anything?

Worth reading in full.

Very much so.

[russellsimpson]

While the West devotes much focus to Russia violating its trust, little attention is dedicated to Russia’s sense of being betrayed. A consensus has been reached in Moscow that any prospect of a ‘Greater Europe’ has failed. With the demise of Putin’s reformed ‘pro-Western’ platform, the opposition is winning the argument that Russia must prepare the military to counter NATO.

https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-in...rn-alternative

Good post. All are invited to read the article.

The situation is gradually moving toward status "intractible"

[OhOh]

Probably not the correct thread but a topical Ukrainian TV series. Ukrainian language with English subs:
Servant of the People

























"Ukrainian school teachers is elected as the country's president

A political comedy about ordinary school teacher becoming the President of Ukraine. He tries to live an ordinary life without all 'President's privileges' and works really hard to build a new country and fight the army of corrupted and deceitful bureaucrats."

It managed 3 seasons.

The first two episodes as a taster for you:

[russellsimpson]

Do not play with the Soviet bear because you will be eaten up and shitted out.

Be thankful for the fact that the hungry bear has not already gobbled you up.

NATO has created Ukraine to irritate and test the bear without getting involved in a general conflagration with said Sovietskis.

Zelensky is a clown and an idiot.

...........Just working a new theory that ties all the bullshit together.

I visit from another galaxy and come in peace.

Piece

[cyrille]

Seems like you're smoking some good $hit these days, Russ.

[Backspin]

^ So Neverna you silly little bitch.

My comment about KW earns me a red.

Cvnt.

If any of your opinions deviate from the dry simpleton mainstream line of any topic , they will systematically red you until you go into negative repo and then you wont be able to repo anyone else. They somehow believe that this then confirms their dry lame opinions.

As people with more dynamic opinions go red, it makes it that much easier for the next one to go red because it eliminates another one from giving repo.

[helge]

If no argument, any denigration of the messenger is welcome...

Forum: Speakers Corner

Air your opinion on current world affairs. A forum for civil discussion and exchange of ideas. No flaming or abuse allowed. All posts should include your opinion on the subject, not your opinion of the member posting.

Well, that was then

[russellsimpson]

No flaming or abuse allowed. All posts should include your opinion on the subject, not your opinion of the member posting.

Must admit I'm probably guilty of some of that.

When in Rome and all that.

[helge]

I'm probably guilty of some of that

A bit lately

When in Lvov...

(must stay on topic)

[russellsimpson]

Sorry about that, moving along then.

[Klondyke]

Well, that was then

I do not see my post you are referring to... (strange and unusual fact...)