Thread: Bali Executions

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Because murder rates have more to do with race than the punishment

Is this back to the theories of Cesare Lombroso? Have a red!

^ Thanks, Latin Dancer.

I read it just now.

Some people are just plain evil and need to die a slow and tortuous death.

Not really. Often they have profound psychiatric problems. It has been estimated that 40% of prisoners have some form of mental illness.

Originally Posted by Norton

For 2013, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty states was 4.4, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 3.4 per capita.

There are many many other factors at play here.

E.g. Texas is a CP state. It is also a culturally more traditional/backward state where violence is resorted to more quickly in disputes than in more culturally progressive states such as north-east so the murder rate will inevitably be higher there regardless of comparitive judicial punishments.

It simply does not bear the common sense test to suggest that the threat of execution is not a very significant disincentive against a path of action. The endless resorting to meaningless statistics is just an attempt to wriggle out of facing this self-evident reality.

Originally Posted by Black Heart

Death penalty is much, much, more expensive that life without parole.

That is because of the legal process. If it was cut down to maximum of 1 year for legal process it would be much cheaper. That is also the reason the death penalty is not as great a deterrent as it should be. They are not worried by the prospect because they know they have 15 years sitting around scratching their ass enjoying their stretch of existence and the system can't touch them. It is BOLLIX and drastically shortening the legal process would solve both problems.

This thread should be executed the same as the filthy drug smuggling scum who deserved to die.

The Filipina maid was walking toward the execution ground when she was told she was granted a temporary reprieve
In this April 26, 2015 photo, workers load coffins that will be delivered to the prison island of Nusakambangan onto a truck ahead of the imminent executions of drug convicts on death row, in Cilacap, Central Java, Indonesia
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Some minutes after the stroke of midnight on Wednesday, eight men walked to the execution ground on the Indonesian island of Nusakambangan. The prisoners, who belonged to different faiths, all chose not to be blindfolded and reportedly sang the Christian hymn “Amazing Grace” until the executioners’ bullets were fired, killing them.
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Pastor Karina de Vega, who was with the condemned drug convicts until the last moment, told the Sydney Morning Herald, “They bonded together. Brotherhood.”

The world had joined together in pleading to Indonesian President Joko “Jokowi” Widodo, who vows not to grant clemency to drug convicts on death row, to spare the prisoners’ lives. Their pleas fell onto deaf ears: the Australians Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran, the Bali Nine pair who had outwardly repented during the decade they spent at a Bali prison; the four Nigerians who included the so-called Death-Row Gospel Singer; one poor Indonesian laborer; and one mentally ill Brazilian died at around 12:25 a.m. local time on Wednesday. Some of them still had ongoing legal appeals.

Jokowi decided to spare the life of the ninth drug convict, however. At literally the last minute, as Mary Jane Veloso, a Filipina migrant worker, was walking out from her cell to the execution ground, she was told she was granted a temporary reprieve.

The delay came after a woman who allegedly recruited Veloso surrendered to the Philippine authorities on Tuesday afternoon. (Veloso maintains she was a victim of human trafficking and duped into carrying 2.6 kg of heroin into Indonesia.) Philippine President Benigno Aquino III, who had met Jokowi on the sidelines of the ASEAN Summit in Kuala Lumpur on Monday, made another appeal to his Indonesian counterpart to spare the 30-year-old Filipina the next day, saying she could be a key witness in prosecuting drug syndicates.

“The execution of Mary Jane has been postponed because there was a request from the Philippine President related to a perpetrator who surrendered herself in the Philippines,” Tony Spontana, spokesman for the Indonesian Attorney General’s Office, told reporters on Wednesday morning. “Mary Jane has been asked to testify.”

Manila’s diplomatic pressures aside, Indonesian migrant activists and women’s-rights activists also played a big role in actively lobbying on behalf of Veloso and helped spark a social-media campaign in Indonesia. The National Commission on Violence Against Women says Veloso was a victim of domestic abuse who, driven by poverty, went to work as a helper in Dubai to support her two sons, but returned home after she was nearly raped by her employer. Driven by desperation, she accepted a job offer in Kuala Lumpur, which led to her arrest in Yogyakarta in 2010. It’s a story that resonates in Indonesia, where millions of women seek work abroad as domestic helpers to support their families, frequently falling victim to ill treatment, exploitation and abuse.

Erwiana Sulistyaningsih, a former Indonesian helper whose severe abuse in the hands of her Hong Kong employer made international headlines, called Veloso a “friend” and, just hours before the scheduled execution, joined other Indonesian citizens in pleading to Jokowi to save Veloso’s life. Sringatin, a migrant worker and activist in Hong Kong, took part in rallies in Jakarta; her fellow worker-activist Eni Lestari led protests in front of the Indonesian consulate general in Hong Kong. Two female legislators from Jokowi’s party, Eva Sundari and Rieke Diah Pitaloka, also voiced their support to the Filipina prisoner.

Anis Hidayah, executive director of Jakarta-based Migrant Care, is among workers’-rights activists who have been campaigning for Veloso. When she attended Jokowi’s emergency meeting to discuss Veloso’s case on Tuesday afternoon, she tells TIME, “I told the President that [Indonesian] migrant workers on death row overseas are in the same position like Mary Jane, they are all victims. As I spoke, I couldn’t help crying.”

Six million Indonesian migrant workers remitted $8.55 billion to their families last year — a record high — according to the World Bank (in contrast, the Philippines’ 12 million workers remitted $28.4 billion back home last year, the biggest in Southeast Asia). But there’s a grim fact: there are hundreds of Indonesians currently on death row overseas (the Indonesian government says there are 229, but Migrant Care puts the number at 290). Jokowi has vowed to fight for their lives, despite his hard-line approach to drug convicts on death row back home.

The latest executions “will have a big impact,” says Anis, whose organization opposes the death penalty. “It will create an obstacle and narrow down the Indonesian government’s room for diplomacy to free migrant workers from death row overseas.”

It isn’t clear yet what will happen to Veloso: if her alleged recruiter is found guilty, whether she would have a new trial. On Wednesday, Jokowi said Veloso’s execution “is only delayed, not canceled.” But Anis vows that migrant-workers’-rights groups from Indonesia and the Philippines will keep on fighting for Veloso.

And, after all the controversy surrounding the latest round of executions, the activist says, “I hope it can be a valuable lesson for the law enforcement that death-penalty decisions should not be made carelessly.”

Philippines: Indonesia's Migrant Workers Save Mary Jane Veloso's Life

Originally Posted by Looper

ourse I do but the reality is that I am only suggesting the death penalty in watertight cases

Nope, that wasn't what you said before. What you said was you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet, clearly indicating you don't mind if a few innocents die.

One aspect of a judicial system is revenge

Nope, it's not. You really oughtta educate yourself before making these absurd, teenage like statements of fact all the time.

Originally Posted by Ronin

Originally Posted by Storekeeper

How on earth can it be possible for the death penalty to be more expensive than a life sentence? Whoever posted that has got to be misreading whatever their source is.

I am not: See Larry Gott on youtube/facebook, better still send him an e-mail. He is an American who has done some good narratives on the death penalty.

Found him and yes he sure does have a lot of videos posted. I'll watch some of them.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by kingwilly

One aspect of a judicial system is revenge

Nope, it's not. You really oughtta educate yourself before making these absurd, teenage like statements of fact all the time.

“The Myth of Moral Justice.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/28/op...baum.html?_r=0

Such statements of unvarnished revenge make many uncomfortable. But how different is revenge from justice, really? Every legal system, however dispassionate and procedural, must still pass the gut test of seeming morally just; and revenge must always be just and proportionate. That is what the biblical phrase “eye for an eye” means. Justice requires that no less than an eye can be taken in retaliation for a lost eye, but no more than an eye either. Despite the stigma of vengeance, it’s as natural to the human species as love and sex. In art and culture, everyone roots for the avenger, and audiences will settle for nothing less than a proper payback — whether it comes from Hamlet, or from the emotionally wounded avengers in “Gladiator,” “Braveheart” or “Unforgiven.” Recent studies in neuroscience and evolutionary psychology have claimed that human beings are hard-wired for vengeance.

Seekingasylum your comparing apples and oranges, murder rates have nothing to do with capital punishment or not.
Capital punishment in the US is reserved for first degree murder, premeditated cold blood killing.
You are saying not having capital punishment, or having it makes a difference to vehicular or negligent homicides, or a guy who kills his wife in the heat of a argument.
People kill each other for lots of reasons, few are classed as capital crimes.

Originally Posted by kingwilly

What you said was you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet, clearly indicating you don't mind if a few innocents die.

Fair enough Willy. You got me there. I was trolling turnip-brain Ronin a little bit with that statement. I do think DP is for water-tight cases only.

Originally Posted by kingwilly

Nope, it's not.

Well I did offer a fairly detailed explanation of my position in support of the claim that there is a substantial element of revenge in the reasoning behind organised justice systems in response to Stroller in post 317 so maybe you could expand a little bit on your 3 word refutation.

The question remains:
Which "avenged victim" will have "the warm feeling of satisfaction from revenge" when Atlaoui, or Rodrigo Gularte get executed?

^who are these punters? Drug smugglers?

If so drug smuggling does not come close to being worthy of the supreme penalty.

Sort of... see the OP.

So, perhaps their relatives would like to have some revenge justice against the judge and the firing squat?

Originally Posted by jamescollister

So why bother putting people in jail, if you arrest one rapist, another will just take his place, right.

That's not the issue: let me try again: in short the death penatly is not the answer as it doesn't solve the problem. The problem is you and too many others aren't interested in the real problem.

Originally Posted by stroller

The question remains: Which "avenged victim" will have "the warm feeling of satisfaction from revenge" when Atlaoui, or Rodrigo Gularte get executed?

Who wrote the question? I get 'satisfaction' at seeing these executions, as a law abiding person, as best I can be, in seeing these bits of shit done away with. They went for the easy money knowing the consequences.

Prime Minister Tony Abbott has described it as "odd" for an Australian university to announce scholarships in honour of executed drug smugglers Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran.

The Australian Catholic University was involved in the campaign for clemency and has announced it would recognise the two men by introducing scholarships in their memory.

The Vice Chancellor, Professor Greg Craven, released a statement explaining the reasoning for the university's decision.

"We did this because ACU is committed to the dignity of the human person, and that applies equally to all human beings: victims as well as to those who have been convicted of crimes," the statement said.

"As a Catholic university committed to promoting a culture of life, we stand opposed to the death penalty."

Indonesian students wanting to study in Australia would be eligible, and would have to submit an essay on the sanctity of human life as part of their application.

"In a small but deeply symbolic way, the writing by Indonesian students on the sanctity of life would be an ongoing contribution toward the eventual abolition of the death penalty in Indonesia," Professor Craven wrote.
Mr Abbott responded to the decision in an interview with radio station 2GB.

I know part of Christian faith is forgiveness but another part of Christian faith is calling people to be their best selves.

Prime Minister, Tony Abbott

"I absolutely deplore what happened this week, it casts a very deep shadow over what is normally a good relationship with Indonesia," he said.
"By the same token there can be no truck with drug trafficking, absolutely none."

Mr Abbott said the university was sending a very unusual message.
"It's, if I may say so, an odd thing for a university to do," he said.
"Particularly for an institution which is supposed to stand up for the best values.

"I know part of Christian faith is forgiveness, but another part of Christian faith is calling people to be their best selves."

He said the men were repentant and seemed to have met their fate with a "kind of nobility".

"All of that is admirable, but whether that justifies what has apparently been done, I think, is open to profound question," Mr Abbott said.

Bali Nine: Australian Catholic University scholarships in honour of Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran 'odd', Tony Abbott says - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

At the end of the day there is not really to much to-debate on this issue. It is the same as a political or religious discussion.

You are ether for it or against it, not much middle ground. Even though people may be against it they acknowledge Indo's right to use their law and how the Australians bought it upon themselves.

Anyway Back in Australia The executions are all over the news and the hard print.

Mixed bag really, Black and white.

Many more are saying that the smugglers played their game and lost.

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

Who wrote the question? I get 'satisfaction' at seeing these executions, as a law abiding person, as best I can be, in seeing these bits of shit done away with. They went for the easy money knowing the consequences.

Most people do not get satisfaction from the death of these two smugglers. To most it matters not whether they live or die.

Most people say, it's not my problem, I am not a scum of the earth drug smuggler peddling death.

Whatever.

I gain nothing from the death of these two except to say a country has every right to enforce their laws.

Easy as that huh.

On Talk back today the usual handful of shit heads front up and say that there is no crime committed that Justifies the Death Penalty.

When I hear or read some tard who pens or speaks these incredibly insane views it makes me to want to turn into a mass murder myself but only murder the ones who hold such incredibly obscene views.

I despise these do gooders. They add nothing to this world.

Originally Posted by terry57

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

Who wrote the question? I get 'satisfaction' at seeing these executions, as a law abiding person, as best I can be, in seeing these bits of shit done away with. They went for the easy money knowing the consequences.

Most people do not get satisfaction from the death of these two smugglers. To most it matters not whether they live or die.

Most people say, it's not my problem, I am not a scum of the earth drug smuggler peddling death.

Whatever.

I gain nothing from the death of these two except to say a country has every right to enforce their laws.

Easy as that huh.

Not quite as clear-cut and 'easy' if you take the trouble to read a few lines before passing judgement:
"Serge Areski Atlaoui - France

The 51-year old was arrested in November 2005 and charged with possessing 138.6 kilograms of methamphetamine, 290 kilograms of ketamine and 316 drums of precursor at a drug-making factory in Tangerang.

He was originally sentenced to life in prison by the Tangerang District Court in November 2006, but it was upgraded to the death penalty in May 2007 by the Supreme Court.

Atlaoui, from Metz, west of Paris, has always maintained his innocence, saying he was only paid to maintain machines in the factory where the drugs were found.

"He was abused. We have always said that he was welding machines in a factory producing acrylic," his lawyer, Richard Sedillot, told French newspaper La Croix.

Mr Sedillot said when Atlaoui was working in Holland he was approached by a "recruiter" to work with him in Indonesia."
That's not exactly smuggling drugs.

"Rodrigo Gularte - Brazil

The 43-year-old Brazilian national was convicted of trying to smuggle 19 kilograms of heroin into Jakarta in 2004.

He was sentenced to death in 2005.

Aid organisation Reprieve said Gularte was diagnosed with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder with psychotic features.

The organisation also claimed international law prohibits the execution of individuals with mental or intellectual disabilities.

Brazil made the decision to recall its ambassador to Indonesia in January following the execution of another of its citizens.

President Dilma Rousseff made the country's position clear to Indonesia, saying she was "distressed and outraged" by the execution in January."

Originally Posted by terry57

On Talk back today the usual handful of shit heads front up and say that there is no crime committed that Justifies the Death Penalty.

When I hear or read some tard who pens or speaks these incredibly insane views it makes me to want to turn into a mass murder myself but only murder the ones who hold such incredibly obscene views.

I despise these do gooders. They add nothing to this world.

Cling to your illusions as instilled by a meaningless existence on the western shores of a continent featuring little other than space, rock, dust and suburban tedium by all means, but the sum total of your contribution to the planet within the universe is represented by the energy produced when you die and your corpse rots away into atoms as infinite as your stupidity.

Originally Posted by Latindancer

Not really. Often they have profound psychiatric problems. It has been estimated that 40% of prisoners have some form of mental illness.

Don't make excuses.

Asshole.