Thread: Bali Executions

Originally Posted by Seekingasylum

Which is why of course there are no murders in the U.S. States which impose the death penalty........

Elementary stupidity, eh Looper?

Not a valid argument, most murders, like assaults are heat of the moment crimes.
Premeditated, cold blood killings are rare in comparison, a bar fight can not be counted the same as a killer who plans and executes a crime.

Deterrents sentences work well in some areas, compare bank robberies to street robberies, rob a bank and you will do real time.
Shoplifting to burglary, technically shoplifters who steal with premeditation commit burglary, but the sentencing does not reflect that.

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Originally Posted by Seekingasylum

Which is why of course there are no murders in the U.S. States which impose the death penalty........

Elementary stupidity, eh Looper?

Not a valid argument, most murders, like assaults are heat of the moment crimes.
Premeditated, cold blood killings are rare in comparison, a bar fight can not be counted the same as a killer who plans and executes a crime.

Deterrents sentences work well in some areas, compare bank robberies to street robberies, rob a bank and you will do real time.
Shoplifting to burglary, technically shoplifters who steal with premeditation commit burglary, but the sentencing does not reflect that.

Is your hobby angling for red herrings?

Unsure if this has been mentioned before, I heard the Barli leaders had previously committed the same crime 5 times before being apprehended or is it just hear say ??

All things being equal I think it is only common sense to accept that the death penalty constitutes a significant disincentive when compared with life imprisonment. The problem is that it is very difficult to hold all other factors equal in order to perform a statistically sound analysis.

However criminal disincentivisation is only one apect of the argument. the death penalty could be championed on other grounds.

e.g.

1. Society's and the victim's right to exact revenge upon a particularly severe outrage against the social contract. Society enjoys a sense of fairness so outrageous crime deserves no mercy.

2. A humane approach to the death penalty in the case of the worst cases of torture/rape/murder. i.e. we are putting a deranged and probably emotionally very unhappy and incurable creature out of its misery

3. A fiscal approach. It is far cheaper than life imprisonment.

Originally Posted by Looper

1. Society's and the victim's right to exact revenge upon a particularly severe outrage against the social contract. Society enjoys a sense of fairness so outrageous crime deserves no mercy.

Revenge does not solve the problem.

2. A humane approach to the death penalty in the case of the worst cases of torture/rape/murder. i.e. we are putting a deranged and probably emotionally very unhappy and incurable creature out of its misery

Plenty of people with supposedly successful careers or relationships suffer from various problems or disorders and live in misery. There are few if any humane approaches to the death penalty.

3. A fiscal approach. It is far cheaper than life imprisonment.

Executing somebody in America is far more expensive than jailing them.

Originally Posted by Ronin

Executing somebody in America is far more expensive than jailing them.

Technically correct in one sense, but very misleading when taken out of context like this.

The average convict sentenced to death in the US spends around 15 years on death row. When they say 'executing them is far more expensive than jailing them" they count the costs of special facilities for death row inmates, ALL OF THE 15 YEARS OR MORE WORTH OF LEGAL PROCEDURES/APPEALS, and all other costs.

Thus, it might technically be cheaper to sentence them to "Life Without The Possibility Of Parole" and just lock them away than to sentence them to death.

That's how 'they' do the calculation to support the OP's statement.

In fact, the cost of the execution is almost nothing. It's mostly handled by prison personnel as part of their duties. Cost of a bullet or two, or a brief surge in electricity consumption, or the cost of a rope or some chemicals. It's getting them there that costs the big bucks.

Idiotic system.

Revenge does not solve the problem.

for many of the victims and those hurt by crime it might.

Originally Posted by taxexile

Revenge does not solve the problem.

for many of the victims and those hurt by crime it might.

BS! How can it? Mere retribution nothing more, so the problem remains thanks to the narrow-mindedness of so many.

Originally Posted by Ronin

Revenge does not solve the problem.

It solves the problem of society's desire for revenge which is a natural human emotion with a sound basis in the evolutionary roots of the human species. Revenge is the natural desire for justice as it is manifested in the human set of emotions.

Originally Posted by Ronin

Plenty of people with supposedly successful careers or relationships suffer from various problems or disorders and live in misery

Totally irrelevant. Do you have a brain? We are talking specifically about individuals who have committed atrocities because they are emotionally damaged. Putting them out of their misery is an argument in favour of the death penalty.

Originally Posted by Ronin

Executing somebody in America is far more expensive than jailing them.

Not if is expedited within say 12 months.

Originally Posted by Looper

Originally Posted by Ronin

Revenge does not solve the problem.

It solves the problem of society's desire for revenge which is a natural human emotion with a sound basis in the evolutionary roots of the human species. Revenge is the natural desire for justice as it is manifested in the human set of emotions.

Mere twaddle: retribution solves nothing as the problem remains - do try thinking out of the box.

Totally irrelevant. Do you have a brain? We are talking specifically about individuals who have committed atrocities because they are emotionally damaged. Putting them out of their misery is an argument in favour of the death penalty.

You are the one without a brain, many people are emotionally damaged in various ways. Try living in the real world Looper or do you desire to be shot when your marriage breaks up?

Originally Posted by Ronin

Executing somebody in America is far more expensive than jailing them.

Not if is expedited within say 12 months.[/QUOTE]

Maybe but that doesn't happen very often to say the least.

Originally Posted by hazz

when one needs to build strawmen as weak as that to make your point... the senible person would realise they have lost the argument. After all we all die so why worry or do anything. sad

the argument was won simply by pointing out the ridiculous clamoring about a couple Aussies getting drilled for committing a crime openly known to carry the death sentence. Your failure to grasp the lunacy of this when posted up against the millions who die in this world due to pure negligence of its society, yet no big out cry from the media, the governments or its general lefty slobbering cry babies.

Strawman argument is the one poised for those criminals who were executed according to the law of the land they were in while comitting their crimes hazz.

Indonesian Attorney-General Muhammad Prasetyo brushed off Australia's withdrawal of its ambassador as a "temporary reaction", saying the Netherlands and Brazil had done the same when their citizens were executed in January.

Originally Posted by Looper

it is only common sense

Logical fallacy, try researching the topic. There is no evidence that the death penalty deters anybody.

Period.

Originally Posted by kingwilly

Originally Posted by Looper

it is only common sense

Logical fallacy, try researching the topic. There is no evidence that the death penalty deters anybody.

Period.

I have already addressed this issue in another post elsewhere but it bears repeating: the statistics show that in comparable sized US states sharing the same demography the murder rate in those with the death penalty is the same or higher than those without the death penalty.

The issue is well documented and only the obdurate or just plain stupid would argue otherwise.

The Indonesians are a typical S.E.Asian state in that their society is crude, ignorant, largely uneducated, corrupt and hypocritical. Quite how the sanctimonious and priggishly self righteous of the forum could possibly argue these drug couriers deserved their fate beats me.

Just been reading the Brazilian victim was diagnosed as a schizophrenic and manic depressive who was oblivious to his fate until a mere few minutes before his murder.

The rising disgust among the civilised world wil hopefully rebound on those ghastly little savages and their leader Wogadodo. I feel pity for the Balinese who pleaded with the man to cease these murders - ultimately, they will be the long term losers.
I shall never venture there, and if I do meet an Indo in the street I may gave him a clip around his ear.

With sausages ?

Originally Posted by kingwilly

With sausages ?

Why sausages?

Executed Indonesian May Have Been Denied Justice by Clerical Blunder: Supreme Court


A coffin bearing the body of Indonesian drug convict Zainal Abidin is buried in Cilacap on Wednesday. (AFP Photo/Romeo Gacad)

Jakarta. Zainal Abidin, the sole Indonesian among a batch of eight drug offenders executed on Wednesday, may have been denied justice because of a bureaucratic blunder, the Supreme Court has revealed.

On its website, the final court of appeals said on Thursday that the case review that it received from Zainal — and subsequently rejected two days before he was put to death — had been submitted 10 years late.

The Palembang District Court in South Sumatra initially convicted Zainal in August 2001 to 18 years in prison for possession of 58.7 kilograms of marijuana. Prosecutors, who had sought the death penalty on trafficking charges, mounted an appeal with the Palembang High Court, which duly handed down the death sentence less than a month later.

In May 2005, Zainal’s lawyers filed a case review, or PK, a final form of appeal that is heard by the Supreme Court. In keeping with procedure, the case review was filed with the original court hearing the case, which was expected to forward the case to the Supreme Court.

However, the Palembang District Court did nothing with the case for nearly 10 years, until April 8 this year, when it grew increasingly apparent that Zainal would be among the next batch of inmates to be put to death.

“The Supreme Court’s assistant clerk for special crimes did not receive the PK until April 8, 2015,” chief clerk Soeroso Ono said in the statement on the website.

“That means that from May 2, 2005, until April 2015, the case was not in the hands of the Supreme Court clerk. The Supreme Court had less than a week in which to hear the review, from April 21, 2015, when it reached the judges, to April 27, 2015, when the ruling was handed down.”

Soeroso said it was worrying that the Palembang District Court had failed to forward the case to the Supreme Court for nearly a decade, and urged courts across the country to be more meticulous about sticking with judicial procedures.

However, there was no explanation from the Supreme Court for why it had not sought to stay Zainal’s execution, given that his case review was still being heard when prosecutors notified him about the impending execution.

Legal analysts have also expressed concern that the court’s rejection of the case review may have been influenced by the time pressure that the judges were under, and that had the review been heard in 2005, as it was supposed to, the outcome might have been different.

Executed Indonesian May Have Been Denied Justice by Clerical Blunder: Supreme Court - The Jakarta Globe

Originally Posted by kingwilly

Legal analysts have also expressed concern that the court’s rejection of the case review may have been influenced by the time pressure that the judges were under, and that had the review been heard in 2005,

More likely a done deal no need for review...

Seekingasylum, comparing murder rates to places with capital punishment is ludicrous, if it indeed reflected any correlation then capital punishment wins hands down.

Japan has capital punishment and probably the lowest murder rate in the world.

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Seekingasylum, comparing murder rates to places with capital punishment is ludicrous, ...

If death penalty was a deterrent, you'd expect murder rates to be low, or at least below average, wouldn't you?

...if it indeed reflected any correlation then capital punishment wins hands down.

Japan has capital punishment and probably the lowest murder rate in the world.

Why take one rather exceptional place, and not look at the overall picture to compare?

Btw, you know that in Japan only 3 people were executed in 2014 - all for multiple murders -, and zero so far in 2015, must be an enormous deterrent for drug dealers.

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Seekingasylum, comparing murder rates to places with capital punishment is ludicrous, if it indeed reflected any correlation then capital punishment wins hands down.

Japan has capital punishment and probably the lowest murder rate in the world.

Have you not digested the data in the U.S.?

Why is it ludicrous to compare rates of murder in U.S. states which impose a death penalty with those which do not? I would have thought the reason for doing so was quite obvious.

Originally Posted by Seekingasylum

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Seekingasylum, comparing murder rates to places with capital punishment is ludicrous, if it indeed reflected any correlation then capital punishment wins hands down.

Japan has capital punishment and probably the lowest murder rate in the world.

Have you not digested the data in the U.S.?

Why is it ludicrous to compare rates of murder in U.S. states which impose a death penalty with those which do not? I would have thought the reason for doing so was quite obvious.

Because murder rates have more to do with race then the punishment.
Maryland [Baltimore] no capital punishment, Texas capital punishment, who's murder rate is higher.

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Because murder rates have more to do with race than the punishment

Is this back to the theories of Cesare Lombroso? Have a red!

^Perhaps one of the highest suicide rates however.