Thread: Bali Executions

Originally Posted by Ronin

There is no evidence the death penalty deters, read the statistics and the facts.

They are not FACTs. They are statistics and statistics can be made to say lots of things that are not true and do not take all factors into account. Only a total cauliflower brain could fail to see the blindingly obvious deterrent effect of the death penalty.

Originally Posted by Ronin

It doesn't, people only imagine it does.

Do the avenged victims only imagine the warm feeling of satisfaction from revenge or do the really feel it. What is the difference between an imagined sensation and a real sensation?

Originally Posted by Ronin

Read the part in bold.

I did. You are still off topic.

Originally Posted by Ronin

Your phrase 'so we make it happen' confirms this. You cannot make it happen.

Why can we not make it happen? Where there is a possible democratic consensus there is a way.

Originally Posted by Ronin

You are dead right; one of my beefs with the death penalty is, it is only a matter of time before an innocent party is executed.

You can't make an omelette without cracking a few eggs.

Originally Posted by Ronin

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Not dealt with many victims I guess, closure for families etc is hard when the face of the criminal appears on TV and newspapers for years after the event.
When they are dead, no appeals, parole boards, no court appearances for crimes while in prison and you will never bump into the criminal on the street in years to come.

This is the usual bumf: As I have said before if you execute one criminal another will take his/her place. Consider this: they used to hang people for stealing horses. Why did they stop? Answer: it didn't stop people stealing horses.

Far as I know, never been a case of an executed criminal re offending, horse thief or not.

How on earth can it be possible for the death penalty to be more expensive than a life sentence? Whoever posted that has got to be misreading whatever their source is.

Two separate issues for me:

1. Do I continue to support the death penalty?
2. Do I continue to support a country's sovereign right to enforce their laws?

A third question would be whether I think a drug offense deserves the death penalty? On this one I'd have to say unequivocally ... NO.

^ Although execution is reasonably cheap, the court case, appeals and death row imprisonment are expensive, especially in the US.

The argument for or against the death penalty has its own thread so I won't repeat myself here.

I am interested in the future awaiting the Frenchman and the Filipino following their temporary reprieves. I don't think either crime warrants death even under Indo laws.

Originally Posted by Looper

Do the avenged victims only imagine the warm feeling of satisfaction from revenge or do the really feel it. What is the difference between an imagined sensation and a real sensation?

Justice is not about revenge.

Looper is trolling, I do not believe anyone can be that willfully stupid or blind.

I wonder which "avenged victim" will have "the warm feeling of satisfaction from revenge" when Atlaoui, or Rodrigo Gularte get executed?

Originally Posted by Storekeeper

How on earth can it be possible for the death penalty to be more expensive than a life sentence? Whoever posted that has got to be misreading whatever their source is.

I am not: See Larry Gott on youtube/facebook, better still send him an e-mail. He is an American who has done some good narratives on the death penalty.

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Far as I know, never been a case of an executed criminal re offending, horse thief or not.

Just like you to miss the point altogether pathetic comprehension as usual: let me spell it out to you even though I seem to recall saying twice already; if you execute one criminal another will take his/her place

Now here's something for you all, although Looper will likely say that has put him out of his misery;

Indonesia executions: Brazilian was 'unaware until end' - BBC News

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Seekingasylum, comparing murder rates to places with capital punishment is ludicrous, ...

If death penalty was a deterrent, you'd expect murder rates to be low, or at least below average, wouldn't you?

...if it indeed reflected any correlation then capital punishment wins hands down.

Japan has capital punishment and probably the lowest murder rate in the world.

Why take one rather exceptional place, and not look at the overall picture to compare?

Btw, you know that in Japan only 3 people were executed in 2014 - all for multiple murders -, and zero so far in 2015, must be an enormous deterrent for drug dealers.

The Indonesian President's chief political rival promised to publicly support Joko Widodo if he granted clemency to Bali Nine ringleaders Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran. Military strongman Prabowo Subianto twice privately assured Mr Joko there would be no political consequences if Chan, Sukumaran and eight others on death row were reprieved.

Mr Prabowo's extraordinary behind-the-scenes intervention would have given the President face-saving political cover to spare the lives of Chan and Sukumaran.

It is understood that Mr Prabowo penned a letter to Mr Joko at the weekend in which he said that if the President were to "postpone the executions indefinitely", he would come out in support of the decision.

Mr Joko, under pressure from his political patron, former president Megawati Sukarnoputri, ignored the offer.

Mr Prabowo, the son-in-law of former dictator Suharto, narrowly lost last year's presidential race to Mr Joko but still wields great influence over Indonesia's Parliament and political system.
To Australian observers, Mr Prabowo had a much better grasp of the international repercussions for Indonesia if the executions went ahead.

Publicly, Mr Prabowo has said he supports the death penalty but that Indonesia should have a "flexible" approach.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/la...-deal-ignored/

I don't know who said: 'Japan has capital punishment and murder rate is low.' However, whoever it was knows nothing about Japanese culture or society. The death penalty has nothing to do with it.

As a mother of two boys and a migrant worker subjected to domestic abuse, convicted drug trafficker Filipina Mary Jane Veloso was the only figure scheduled to be executed this week who drew widespread sympathy from the Indonesian public.

She was the also was the only one to be spared, granted an 11th-hour temporary reprieve by the Indonesian president, Joko Widodo, after a woman handed herself into police in Manila claiming to have recruited her.

The question remains: why on the basis of new evidence is Veloso still alive, while Australians Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran, whose lawyers presented evidence of judicial corruption, were shot dead? Eight people – seven foreign nationals and one Indonesian – were executed by firing squad on Indonesia’s Nusa Kambangan prison island on Wednesday.

Analysts say the outcome is a combination of factors – politics, shoddy diplomacy and the affinity many Indonesians feel with Veloso.

“The Mary Jane Veloso narrative as a foreign worker being duped hits very close to home,” said Indonesian political analyst Yohanes Sulaiman. “So without considering her evidence is kind of, you know, similar to the plight of Indonesian workers in Saudi Arabia.”

Every year there are horror stories about the mistreatment of Indonesian migrant workers ruthlessly beaten and tortured by their employees, some of who are on death row in Saudi Arabia for killing their employers in alleged self defence.
'Am I being executed?' Brazilian killed by Indonesia unaware until end, says priest
Read more

A high-school dropout and former domestic worker in Dubai, who left after an attempted rape, Veloso has consistently claimed she is a victim of human trafficking, duped into smuggling 2.6kg of heroin into Indonesia.

In a country that is virulently against drugs and where approval ratings for capital punishment are high, the Indonesian Twitterati came out in force to support a women they saw as one of their own in the days leading up to her scheduled execution.
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The hashtag #MaryJane was among the highest trending topics, with messages lambasting the president not for battling drugs but “executing poor women, like migrant workers in Saudi Arabia!!”

Noting that “governments have proven to be sensitive to hashtags” and that Widodo seems to “intuitively understand his voters”, Paul Rowland, a Jakarta-based political analyst said the decision would have pandered to a domestic audience.

While the choice to grant the reprieve was a combination of factors, Rowland acknowledged that “the public probably would have been in favour of the president taking a few extra steps”.

Widodo did not have that much to lose when the Philippine president, Benino Aquino III, requested the execution be postponed after a woman claiming to have recruited Veloso unexpectedly turned herself in to Manila police.

The Indonesian president has stressed he has granted only a temporary reprieve while Philippine authorities investigate, but Veloso’s lawyers have vowed to continue their fight in the supreme court on the back of new evidence.

But most tragically for Chan and Sukumaran, the new evidence in their case – that judges were negotiating bribes for more lenient sentences – undermines the integrity of the Indonesian legal system in a way the new evidence in Veloso’s case does not.

Muhammad Rifan, a former lawyer for the Bali Nine duo, told the Sydney Morning Herald that judges had asked for $130,000 to give a sentence of 20 years or less.

After the judges were allegedly ordered by senior government and legal figures in Jakarta to hand down the death penalty, that deal reportedly fell though.

The explosive claims, at a time when the country’s anti-corruption body has suffered blow after blow under Widodo’s rule, might have opened up an ugly “can of worms”, said Sulaiman.
Indonesia executions: prisoners sang Amazing Grace in last moments
Read more

“The accusation of bribery threatens the idea of a fair justice system and the government has already invested too much prestige on being ‘tough on drugs’”, he said.

In a rush job, the judicial commission completed its investigation into the allegations earlier this week but did so without interviewing key witnesses or making its findings public.

“It is illogical,” said Todung Mulya Lubis, of the Bali Nine legal counsel, “if the commission were to investigate then witnesses have to be questioned. Now they don’t have the witnesses.”

According to one researcher from Indonesia Corruption Watch, the judicial commission is generally viewed as quite clean, even though “there are some notes on some of the commissioners”.

Outside court, the lack of diplomatic prowess from the Australian prime minister, Tony Abbott, did not do Chan and Sukumaran any favours either.

Abbott’s insensitive remarks about conditional aid after the 2004 Boxing Day tsunami kickstarted a viral campaign to collect coins to pay Australia back.

In contrast, days before the executions Aquino met his Indonesian counterpart on the sidelines of the Association of South-east Asian Nations (Asean) summit in Malaysia, where he gracefully managed to plant a seed of doubt about Veloso’s innocence.

“President Aquino doesn’t seem to be ‘shirtfronting’ the Indonesian government in the same way Tony Abbott did,” Rowland, referring to Abbott’s aggressive comments about the Russian president Vladimir Putin, “so it got a more

More for Mary Jane Veloso: Why was she spared in the Indonesian executions? | World news | The Guardian

Originally Posted by stroller

Justice is not about revenge.

One aspect of a judicial system is revenge. Sorry if the reality of unpleasant human emotions does not sound nice but it is true. Before the law came along if someone foked you over it was up to you to get revenge using the means at your disposal. Now we have a set of rules with policement and judges and they decide the measure of revenge that is appropriate.

Acts of revenge result from anger and anger is an emotion we evolved to make us seek revenge when we are foked over which is an evolved disincentive for other poeple to fok us over; so anger/revenge is an evolved human behaviour which makes communal tribal living work for homo sapiens. The legal system is the modern represntation of that evolved behaviour.

Imprisonment or execution is punishment meted out by the state in reponse to a crime which often has a victim. The victim is therefore avenged when the sentence is carried out and you feel good when you are avenged.

Originally Posted by Ronin

So you don't care if an innocent party is executed?

Of course I do but the reality is that I am only suggesting the death penalty in watertight cases, and don't say they don't exist because they do. Witness Anders Breivik.

Originally Posted by Ronin

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Far as I know, never been a case of an executed criminal re offending, horse thief or not.

Just like you to miss the point altogether pathetic comprehension as usual: let me spell it out to you even though I seem to recall saying twice already; if you execute one criminal another will take his/her place

So why bother putting people in jail, if you arrest one rapist, another will just take his place, right.

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Seekingasylum, comparing murder rates to places with capital punishment is ludicrous, if it indeed reflected any correlation then capital punishment wins hands down.

Japan has capital punishment and probably the lowest murder rate in the world.

Have you not digested the data in the U.S.?

Why is it ludicrous to compare rates of murder in U.S. states which impose a death penalty with those which do not? I would have thought the reason for doing so was quite obvious.

Will the UK granny get shot or will the Indos bow to the pressure brought to bear by the UK govt.

I suspect she will get a let off, purely because the UK has more political clout than Oz

Originally Posted by Seekingasylum

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Seekingasylum, comparing murder rates to places with capital punishment is ludicrous, if it indeed reflected any correlation then capital punishment wins hands down.

Japan has capital punishment and probably the lowest murder rate in the world.

Have you not digested the data in the U.S.?

Why is it ludicrous to compare rates of murder in U.S. states which impose a death penalty with those which do not? I would have thought the reason for doing so was quite obvious.

Because murder rates have more to do with race then the punishment.
Maryland [Baltimore] no capital punishment, Texas capital punishment, who's murder rate is higher.

For 2013, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty states was 4.4, while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 3.4 per capita.

Murder Rates Nationally and By State | Death Penalty Information Center

Originally Posted by patsycat

A man rammed a glass bottle up a woman's bits and she bled to death. And it wasn't the first time he had done it.

What an evil scumbag.

Did he get the death penalty in LOS?

Life? I assume life.

Any links to this?

Originally Posted by Storekeeper

How on earth can it be possible for the death penalty to be more expensive than a life sentence?

I can only speak for the USA.

Death penalty is much, much, more expensive that life without parole.

(Because of the defunct system.)

It's often more than $1 million dollars because of the lawyers, appeals, and legal motions. It can take decades to carry out a death sentence in the US.

I personally know the family of a victim, whose killer got the death penalty in WA state, and nearly 30 full years later, in the umpteenth appeal / motion, they called the family back to have to testify and gave the guy life on a technicality.

Insane.

Re-torturing the families at the benefit of the perpetrator.

Some death penalty cases in WA state and other states have cost $2-3+ million dollars.

https://teakdoor.com/thailand-and-asi...sodomized.html (Young Woman in Chiang Mai Killed and Sodomized with Glass Water Bottle)