Thread: Islam Ctr Planned Next to Ground Zero

And please none of that soapy 'but they may kill an innocent' hand wringing, unless you can link to a conflict in which only combatants were killed.

Oh I get it, the idea is to reach a point in evolution using technology and advanced teachings to enable a civilised force to fight against a barbarian force without any non-combatants being killed. Oh yes, you got me hooked, definitely.

I'm not at all surprised you don't know what an 'unlawful' order is. You're not in the service, are you?

I think the French way of leading is actually quite close to the American and Russian styles.

This style needs robots.

I've worked with German, Belgian, Danish, Brit and American units. It's quite some time ago though, maybe things have changed.

Here's what I think is a Canadian paper on this subject:

Auftragstaktik

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Originally Posted by Panda

Larv, get real. Soldiers are not required to think. They get paid and trained to blindly follow orders without question. Thats just the way it works in the military.

Originally Posted by larvidchr

Panda you will have to limit yourself to the things you know.

Sorry, Larv, PandyBear is correct. A soldier's main job is to follow orders, whether he/she thinks them right or wrong.

I dont think I anywhere wrote they do not follow orders, actually I wrote they have to be smart to achieve their objectives (orders) it's they way they go about doing that that is different.

And yes as POL writes they are duty bound to refuse "illegal orders", but then that is not a common problem since our officers and NCO's don't order a "My Lai" and a small mass rape to celebrate. When you don't recruit from the scum of society and the education level is fairly high, those situations happen far less often, although violations of the Geneva conventions probably happen in all theaters of war, it is far less likely to happen as often or as blatant with a generally better educated force.

Our societies' have completely different ideologies from the bottom up, from the "dog eat dog" "winning is all" "never mind how and who you trample down" harsh dehumanized US type of mindset, and it makes for young people with a whole different value set and attitude to begin with.

Originally Posted by larvidchr

^^
This is things you have to consider before you sign up as a professional Soldier, you have to trust that you live in a society who's leaders by some considerable margin most likely would not ask you to do things where the legitimacy seen from your side could ever be questioned.

This is the questioned point, Larv. How in h*ll's name can somebody know what will be asked of them? Th commander won't even know until the battle is being fought. You want to be a sissy and question everything, you don't join or will likely be tossed out in boot camp. You join, you follow orders.

Originally Posted by the dogcatcher

Yeah Jet, the Spanish are wankers.

11 million took to the streests of Madrid to send a message to the terrorist that they were not going to bow down to terrorism.

Then fuck me, 2 days later they did exactly what the terorists wanted a voted Zappatero into office.
Twats.

Did they use Diebold's electronic ballot tally machines? The one's with secret proprietary software?

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Originally Posted by larvidchr

^^
This is things you have to consider before you sign up as a professional Soldier, you have to trust that you live in a society who's leaders by some considerable margin most likely would not ask you to do things where the legitimacy seen from your side could ever be questioned.

This is the questioned point, Larv. How in h*ll's name can somebody know what will be asked of them? Th commander won't even know until the battle is being fought. You want to be a sissy and question everything, you don't join or will likely be tossed out in boot camp. You join, you follow orders.

Jet no one can know exactly what orders will specifically given in the future, I was aiming at a higher more principally moral level, that's where you have to make up your mind if the trade as professional Soldier is for you.

No soldier ever agrees 100% with all the orders given in their career, and neither should they have to, as long as the orders are legal you do as told, but if your opinion to often differs significantly with the systems way of acting, skill level, equipment level ect., and or the defense policy of your country then you are in the wrong place.

Can and will you fight and kill, also on foreign soil in conflicts not directly connected to your home country?

Do you in historical and future perspective have confidence in the defense policies of your country and it's leaders?

Do you support the historical decisions made on your country's previous armed intervention policy's?

Everybody who have worked for their Government have on occasion had to do things where you privately have thought, this sucks!! on the other hand you do understand and agree, that the greater system can not work if everyone handpicks what Law's and policy's they privately only want to adhere too, and that it is not on an individual level you change Law's and policy, it is simply not for you to make those decisions, and gasp Jet!!! maybe in fact you do not always know best too, besides within the rules/Law's you always have "level's" of "wriggle room " and that get's bigger the higher up in the system you advance, that is the rules of the game and if you can't accept that you don't work for the Government.

Normal people just dont go out and kill other people unless they believe they have a very good reason. This is true of soldiers also, as they are but normal people in a different environment.
However, psychology experiments have shown that normal people are capable of inflicting a much greater degree of pain and suffering on innocent victims when operating under the cloak of anonymity and without the normal constraints of legal repercussions. Its not surprising then that soldiers lower their moral an ethical standards re the killing and or maiming of fellow humans in the frame of a war setting. Add into that equation the political practice of dehumanizing the enemy; -- the enemy is evil and must be killed. Then you have the human trait of conformity, that is going along with something as small part of the whole and therefore without any responsibility for the overall actions of the group. And to top it all off throw into the mix that as soldiers in a war setting, every individual is well aware that they themselves are being hunted by an equally lethal enemy with equally reduced standards of normal ethical behaviour.

Hence the atrocities and war crimes we so often see in any military conflict. A whole myriad of of factors acting on normal people in an abnormal situation, in order to justify some very abnormal behaviour. Is it any wonder so many soldiers come back from wars mentally screwed up?

But getting normal people to kill other people without conscience is what warfare is all about. The country which kills the most people from the opposing country usually wins the war. Soldiers are not policemen. Soldiers are not PR officers. They are killing machines. Thats their job.

Originally Posted by Panda

Is it any wonder so many soldiers come back from wars mentally screwed up?

Probably happened in cave man days, too. PTSD is on the books for soldiers now; dunno about the civilians affected.
Even in peace, there are local wars, albeit on a much smaller scale -- neighbourhood gangs, mafia groups, drug groups that terrorise people. There will always be arguments, disagreements, envy, and hatred that build up to violent acts. And the need for some to wield power over others - my way or I'll get you. Even folks who can't mind their own business and scream or throw their rubbish or do some other stupid act against their neighbours just because their neighbours eat meat and drive a big car to get a coffee. This just causes disharmony and anger, which can lead to more than shouting matches.

Originally Posted by Panda

Normal people just dont go out and kill other people unless they believe they have a very good reason. This is true of soldiers also, as they are but normal people in a different environment.
However, psychology experiments have shown that normal people are capable of inflicting a much greater degree of pain and suffering on innocent victims when operating under the cloak of anonymity and without the normal constraints of legal repercussions. Its not surprising then that soldiers lower their moral an ethical standards re the killing and or maiming of fellow humans in the frame of a war setting. Add into that equation the political practice of dehumanizing the enemy; -- the enemy is evil and must be killed. Then you have the human trait of conformity, that is going along with something as small part of the whole and therefore without any responsibility for the overall actions of the group. And to top it all off throw into the mix that as soldiers in a war setting, every individual is well aware that they themselves are being hunted by an equally lethal enemy with equally reduced standards of normal ethical behaviour.

Hence the atrocities and war crimes we so often see in any military conflict. A whole myriad of of factors acting on normal people in an abnormal situation, in order to justify some very abnormal behaviour. Is it any wonder so many soldiers come back from wars mentally screwed up?

But getting normal people to kill other people without conscience is what warfare is all about. The country which kills the most people from the opposing country usually wins the war. Soldiers are not policemen. Soldiers are not PR officers. They are killing machines. Thats their job.

Agree with most but the second last sentence of your last paragraph.

Soldiers are not killing machines. Not only do armies not look for your average 'Rambo', they actively try to recruit thinking soldiers.

Officers are meant to think, not blindly follow orders. They can question but cannot refuse to obey orders unless they are willing to face the consequences

Officers are meant to think in tactical terms on the ground. But to have millions of individuals decide for themselves whether each and every order they receive is legal or not, or moral or not, defeats the object of having a chain of command. It's pc gone mad and would throw the most efficient fighting force into dithering confusion.

While some orders may easily be distinguished as questionable, as in kill those kids while nobody's looking, others are not so clear cut and it has to remain for subordinates to follow the order of their commander; he holds the command precisely because someone has to make the decisions and they've made him 'it'.

If this means taking an enemy holdup which they've surrounded with kids, what would you do? Don't know? - that's because you're not trained to know and do not have all the info enjoyed by the person issuing the order.

Unthinkable is a good movie to kick off debates on the morality issue.

Pat Condell talking again on the so called Islamic "community centre" and with comments on the New York Mayors private economic interests in Dubai and Obamas stepping big time in the poo on this one.

Everybody gets an opinion.
It would be nice if a little education came first.
Here's a start:

Article the third [Amendment I]
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

http://www.constitution.org/billofr_.htm

Chatter away.

"Mosque At Ground Zero"

Condell has been resolute and outspoken in his opposition to the development of Park51, near the site of the September 11th World Trade Centre terrorist attacks, in Lower Manhattan. On June 2010 he released a video titled "No mosque at Ground Zero" where he claimed that it was representative of Islamic triumphalism and that the United States was soon on the verge of Islamization and have its freedoms trimmed, as Europe has.[57]. Pat Condell claimed:

To describe it as they have as a tribute to the victims is beyond bad taste, and shows a profound contempt for those who died. It would be hard to find a more provocative gesture short of standing on their graves and burning the American flag. Yet how typical of Islam, with its own hair trigger sensitivity to the slightest imagined insult, to do something so arrogant and insensitive.[58]

Additionally, Condell cast some doubt over the funding of the Mosque, and claimed that Islam would have been banned in the civilized world, if it wasn't for the fact it was a religion, and compared it to Nazi Germany.

Pat Condell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pat Condell, a comedian, outspoken atheist, born in Ireland and resident in the UK. He seems a strange sort of person to give two hoots about an Islamic funded community centre in lower Manhattan.

The controversial Islamic center due to be built near the site of the September 11, 2001 terror attacks in New York City should be moved onto the Ground Zero site itself, documentary filmmaker Michael Moore wrote on his blog on Saturday, saying that such a move would be a way to tear Islam away from the extremists who have kidnapped it.

Moore wrote Saturday that he believed in "an America that says to the world that we are a loving and generous people and if a bunch of murderers steal your religion from you and use it as their excuse to kill 3,000 souls, then I want to help you get your religion back."

"And I want to put it at the spot where it was stolen from you," Moore added.

Commenting further on the planned structure, the controversial filmmaker said that, contrary to popular belief, it was not "going to be a 'mosque,' it's going to be a community center."

"It will have the same prayer room in it that's already there. But to even have to assure people that 'it's not going to be mosque' is so offensive, I now wish they would just build a 111-story mosque there," Moore said, adding that that "would be better than the lame and disgusting way the developer has left Ground Zero an empty hole until recently."

Moore also commented on the support the intended community center received from the local Jewish community center saying that a local rabbi had been advising the Muslim clerics "since the beginning."

"It's been a picture-perfect example of the kind of world we all want to live in," Moore said, later invoking the history of the Jewish struggle for recognition in the New York.
http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/focus-u...-site-1.313276


Those are the sentiments of a Real American.
Don't let either the Islamic or Yank bigots hijack this.
You are better than that.

Until the constitution is changed to only provide freedom of speech and democracy to those who are deemed worthy of it ie those who truly swear allegance to the USA its ideals and principles threads like this will continue forever until of course the Muslims have enough votes to start banning construction of all other faiths places of worship. Better late than never to intervene and put in place steps to stop this happening but it would mean a war on home soil for all non Muslim countries who have allowed so many to settle in their countries even though they do not accept our way of life. It is ridiculous how easy it has become for foreigners to gain full citizenship in our countries. But try to do that in their countries and see if you have the same success and benefits.enuf said.

Originally Posted by Aussie Tigger

Until the constitution is changed to only provide freedom of speech and democracy to those who are deemed worthy of it ie those who truly swear allegance to the USA its ideals and principles threads like this will continue forever until of course the Muslims have enough votes to start banning construction of all other faiths places of worship. Better late than never to intervene and put in place steps to stop this happening but it would mean a war on home soil for all non Muslim countries who have allowed so many to settle in their countries even though they do not accept our way of life. It is ridiculous how easy it has become for foreigners to gain full citizenship in our countries. But try to do that in their countries and see if you have the same success and benefits.enuf said.

Good thinking. Let's destroy our constitution forfeit our freedoms before somebody else does it. That will show them.

I think I hear bin Laden writing his victory speech.

Originally Posted by MrG

I think I hear bin Laden writing his victory speech.

I think Bin Laden has definitely faired well, as well as Al-Qaida and Islamism.

He's achieving some/many of his objectives.

Oh yeah? Where is he?

Originally Posted by Tunaka

Originally Posted by MrG

I think I hear bin Laden writing his victory speech.

I think Bin Laden has definitely faired well, as well as Al-Qaida and Islamism.

He's achieving some/many of his objectives.

Oh yeah? Where is he?

You know what Bin ladens objectives are.

Originally Posted by Tunaka

Originally Posted by MrG

I think I hear bin Laden writing his victory speech.

I think Bin Laden has definitely faired well, as well as Al-Qaida and Islamism.

He's achieving some/many of his objectives.

Oh yeah? Where is he?

It isn't a question of where bin Laden is. It's a question of where we are.

And as I see it, we are less free in our civil affairs, deprived of Habeus Corpus protection, more afraid, less prosperous with less to show for it, less respectful...less knowlegable...of the decent things government can do when it's not lever for corporate interests, many of which live off shore and know no allegiance to any countrymen but themselves.

bin Laden has been very useful to these people. Sort of an accelerator.

Not surprising, but sad none the less-

"Our family has received death threats"

The wife of the imam who plans to build a mosque near Ground Zero revealed Sunday her family has received death threats.

Speaking on Christiane Amanpour's "This Week," Daisy Khan said the family had sought help from the NYPD after receiving terrorizing telephone calls.

"For the record, my life is under threat," said Khan, whose husband is Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf.

Ground Zero mosque: Our family has received death threats, says wife of Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf


In other 'news' in this increasingly farcical saga, Michael Moore has raised $60,000 to Have the "Mosque" moved- to Ground Zero. And a couple of Right wing publicity seekers are starting a sort of celebrity auction for the Park Place site. The execrable Donal Trump offered a lowball $7.5mm for the site, and was soon trumped by the President of the world Chess Federation (a Russian), who offered an 'about right' $10mm foir the site, to build a chess center. Now this could get interesting- there is no shortage of RW publicity seekers out there, with access to funding.

Maybe the Cordoba Foundation should engage in a sort of celebrity Dutch auction, and sell the site for about treble it's market value? And then of course build a considerably grander Community center a block or two away, thanks to sucker money. Theres one born every day.

The most controversial aspect of the scheme – its Muslim prayer space, which would occupy two floors in the basement – will not be a mosque at all as the construction of the building does not satisfy the stringent requirements for a sanctified mosque.


... at least four floors of Park51 are to be given over to a gym and spa, and only two basement floors to a Muslim prayer hall. With a restaurant, artists' studios and a childcare centre, this $140m building clad in an abstract play of Islamic patterns could hardly be less militantly hardcore.

Park51 drawings prove how far 'Ground Zero mosque' claims are from truth | World news | The Guardian


Not a Mosque, not at Ground Zero, Obama is not Moslem, and did not attend a madrassa- it was an International school in Jakarta. Right wing fact primer.

Nice try Sab a muslim prayer room/space/mosque whatever you want to call it supersedes in importance any other function in the building, this is how Islam works and you know it, there is nothing above the faith.

The continued calling it a Islam community centre, talking about cellar rooms and other functions is nothing but very poor spin, that any reasonable knowledgeable individual can see through like clear glass.

At least be open about the main function of the place, lying barefaced about it just makes the whole thing look even more suspect.

They have at present a constitutional right to do it, defend that openly, as others openly say they have a moral obligation to the Nation/US citizens, the victims and their family's not to.