Thread: Islam Ctr Planned Next to Ground Zero

Maybe the americans would do well to ask the Red Indians what occurred when they failed to control immigration. They might well say that they have been fighting terrorism since 1492.

Is history about to repeat itself?

^ 555555 Woodrow Wilson? That prick was a racist and totally screwed the country. And don't forget, those fekin pilgrims were ENGLISH, not Americans. Indians are libbies? OMG, you are reaching, Norts.

Originally Posted by Mr Lick

Maybe the americans would do well to ask the Red Indians what occurred when they failed to control immigration. They might well say that they have been fighting terrorism since 1492.

Is history about to repeat itself?

Erm, I think they were still English back then, so you better blame them. The USA became a nation in 1776.

Originally Posted by Dug

It seems they knew exactly what they were doing by proposing a mosque on this site. Knew there would be protests which they could use to further fuel anti west feeling, then when the shit hits the fan they can say, well look at the people opposing Islam, you bought it on yourself.

Very American. Blame the victim for making you bring it on yourself. Like blaming the woman for tempting the rapist as if he had no control of himself.

Originally Posted by MrG

Originally Posted by Dug

It seems they knew exactly what they were doing by proposing a mosque on this site. Knew there would be protests which they could use to further fuel anti west feeling, then when the shit hits the fan they can say, well look at the people opposing Islam, you bought it on yourself.

Very American. Blame the victim for making you bring it on yourself. Like blaming the woman for tempting the rapist as if he had no control of himself.

You're not making any sense.

Originally Posted by MrG

...Very American. Blame the victim for making you bring it on yourself. Like blaming the woman for tempting the rapist as if he had no control of himself.

Yes, a certain 'minority' do that too, yet they somehow make it seem normal.

The thing about this 'Blame game' is it is entirely impartial, a two edged coin.

One can blame both Palestine and Israel for the occupation of Palestine.
One can blame both AQ and the US for 911.
Both Islamic militants and the invasion of Iraq for the Bali/ Madrid/ London bombings.
And Western Islamophobia or Islam for the Park Place controversy.

All well and good, but I don't see that it leads anywhere.

I'm increasingly of the opinion however that the best cue for radical islam to reform and met the 21st (or even 20th) century will be from the moderate, mainly secular Moslem world. We in the West are too tied up in out own foreign policy blunders and various bigotry's to make much direct impact, although that is not to say we shouldn't encourage moderate Islam over the Fundamentalist loons.

It also occurs to me that the average Moslem living in the West probably hates Islamic terrorism with more of a passion than the average Westerner. It certainly makes integration harder in his adopted society, when he finds himself on the receiving end of suspicion and often prejudice for acts committed by others in the 1.3 billion strong Moslem community.

Originally Posted by sabang

...I'm increasingly of the opinion however that the best cue for radical islam to reform and met the 21st (or even 20th) century will be from the moderate, mainly secular Moslem world. We in the West are too tied up in out own foreign policy blunders and various bigotry's to make much direct impact, although that is not to say we shouldn't encourage moderate Islam over the Fundamentalist loons.

Forget reform, sabang, that's something for the bleeding hearts to wring their hands over; let's reform Islam, have a group hug, grab a coke and everything will be just fine.

What they cannot fathom, is that reform could never move Islam towards civility, only to a harsher and more rigorous interpretation of its doctrines.

It is literally not possible, to improve a perfect object or concept by changing it. This is something we Westerners tend to overlook, since we cannot comprehend that words written by basically ignorant people of the past (Koran, Bible, etc) are to be taken literally.

According to Muslims, Mohamed was the messenger of god and therefore the perfect man; the Koran is also perfect since it is the word of god, as are the Hadith and Sura perfect. Any change, any at all, even to a comma or an apostrophe, would corrupt not just one but the whole essence of Islam, which believes the message of its god is to obliterate the world with perfection.

You don't even need to change a comma or apostrophe; just say you are thinking to do it, and I personally guarantee a fatwa on your life, with or without riots across the Muslim world.

No reform, only confrontation and utter defeat; but we know that won't happen anytime soon.

Originally Posted by sabang

The thing about this 'Blame game' is it is entirely impartial, a two edged coin. One can blame both Palestine and Israel for the occupation of Palestine. One can blame both AQ and the US for 911. Both Islamic militants and the invasion of Iraq for the Bali/ Madrid/ London bombings. And Western Islamophobia or Islam for the Park Place controversy.

I agree, a good point made, Sabang.


The thing that concerns me, although i am not affected directly, is the creeping influence of the Islamic faith into what may be described as civilised moderate countries.

It may prove difficult for citizens of these countries, although tolerant, to relate closely to muslims who are indoctrinated at a young age and spend much of their time in prayer, even devoting their life to it.

I regard such indoctrination as repressive. It may also be difficult to describe such brainwashing, training, coaching, call it what you will, as 'moderation'.

The Iman Raul has been labeled a moderate which for a person devoted to indoctrination, conversion of non believers to become Muslims and follow the Islamic faith, i find quite contradictory. It would seem that if you are not a practising Islamic terrorist then you must be a 'moderate'. I fear that the word 'moderation' is hardly appropriate for a religion such as Islam which in itself fails to accept any form of alternative religion.
It has a religious following that is authoritarian, cruel and brutal on occasions and really one has to say that as such it may be appropriate to mention that it has no place in the modern world, especially within tolerant more moderate countries. I do not feel that it is for these countries to fit in with the Islamic faith, much the reverse. Islam must become more tolerant to the non believers.

The 'freedom of religion' constitution in the US, must surely only apply to those religions that practise peace and understanding and which includes no oppressive traits in their teachings. It unquestionably would be seen as detrimental to the citizens of any country to permit such behaviour.

I feel it is important to have a mind of ones own and whilst it is an advantage to be a good listener one must always be capable of forming ones own opinion (right or wrong) about what matters in life. It would appear that the followers of the Islamic faith have no such opportunity.

Originally Posted by keda

Originally Posted by MrG

...Very American. Blame the victim for making you bring it on yourself. Like blaming the woman for tempting the rapist as if he had no control of himself.

Yes, a certain 'minority' do that too, yet they somehow make it seem normal.

Kinda like the lefties who sue you if they trip over a pebble in your yard. Rather than look to see where they're going, it's easier for them to blame you. Keeps insurance companies, that lefties love to hate, and trial lawyers in biz.

Originally Posted by sabang

the West has in image problem in the Middle East is equally true.

Is that why the Taleban is targetting foreign aid workers in Pakistan?

"According to information available to the US government, [Pakistan militant group] Tehreek-e-Taliban plans to conduct attacks against foreigners participating in the ongoing flood relief operations in Pakistan," the official said.

Pakistan floods: Taliban vows to kidnap foreign aid workers - Telegraph

Originally Posted by sabang

...Both that, and more tolerable. To say Islam has an 'image problem' in the West is quite an understatement. Then again to say the West has in image problem in the Middle East is equally true.

What surprises me is not that Islam has an image problem, but that so many fully grown adult Westerners are surprised that it has - and can't figure why! It cannot be that they don't know Islam reeks of amorality, or that it has become synonymous with terrorism, barbarity, torture, murder, stoning, amputation, kidnapping, beheading, bombing, mutilation and oppression of women. No, it cannot be. It can only be that they want or for ideological reasons need to believe our spineless leaders that tell them there no such thing as Islamic terrorism. Think about it slowly, how dumb such people must be.

Meanwhile, don't worry too much about the West's image problem in the ME and across the Muslim world. Nothing will change as long as it remains civilised and opposed to being taken over by Islam. In case you still don't get it, the West is evil for rejecting Islam, and will be as evil tomorrow and in another 20 years, if it continues to reject Islam. There is no science to this. These are the facts, with nothing to argue over except definitions and minor details.

If you need to argue then I suggest you go to your local imam, because all I have done is echo the doctrines of Islam.

Unless we change our basic system of rights, I don't see that we are really talking about 'banning' a religion.

You want to change what basic system of what?? Have you lost it completely? Why should we change anything? Haven't we changed enough? Haven't we made enough concessions? How far over must we bend before even the most liberal liberal has an outside chance of sensing that we are being rooted?

Now you want to change our system to accommodate what, Islam? Or are you going to say no not Islam but everything because we're still not perfect? If you want perfection, convert to Islam; hopefully that'll shake you up a bit.

Keda has his own view based on the immutability of the 'Word' as expressed in the Koran- but actually there are similar controversies in the Judaic and Christian world...

Don't you go scurrying into a hole by blaming keda for the sickness of the Koran, and the abject bankruptcy of a mass of brain dead people whose goal is to bestow perfection upon the world. The problem is Islam, sabang, not keda. Strive to get a fact straight occasionally; it won't hurt, too much.

And don't jump excitedly as you point at Christianity and Judaism whenever you paint yourself into a corner; there's no way out from there except by getting your feet wet. Stop taking the coward's way out by blaming everyone and everything except Islam, and stop with your but but buts all the time because you cannot find the courage to admit that Islam is the most formidable threat to civilisation and progress in the history of the world.

...When I look at the average practise of Islam, in the largest and most developed Moslem countries, I don't see how we need find this intolerable- no more than Sikhism or Hinduism. Ditto when I look at average Moslems- they've never tried to either convert or stone me, and I guess the loonies wouldn't hang out with the likes of me anyway.

This is a joke, right? What is the "average practice" of Islam? Is this from the same stable as your miracle litmus cure? If you know only twenty Muslims and every one is a great bloke that will barf in the gutter with you, is this your 'average practicing' Muslim? Stop talking crap. You remind me of that moron Kingwilly, who claims Muslims are great because he knows a Muslim deli owner that never once tried to behead him, or some idiocy on those lines.

So. it is not keda that says the Koran is the unalterable word of god, or that the Koran commands Muslims to defeat the infidel and spread Islam throughout the entire world, or that the words of the Koran, the Hadith, the Sura and all other holy Islam texts are to be taken literally, or that Islam is synonymous with terror and evil. It is the holy texts combined with the real world that say so, and it is Islam that has made itself synonymous with evil. Don't blame keda for your inability or abject refusal to see the obvious.

If you want to dispute anything a holy Islamic text states, then stand up like a man and do so in the presence of your 'moderate average practicing litmus tested' Muslim mates. My advice is to first make sure you're wearing a lead collar, or good running boots. But you know that already, don't you, even if you would rather chew your own arm off than pop your own balloon by admitting it.

What is true is that they cannot, and should not, be allowed to infringe on or change our rights because of their own religious belief. We don't stone people, women can drive and work, and no bastard should be allowed to walk into a bank or airport, or even teach or nurse, wearing a full face veil. If they can't handle that, theres always home back in good old Afghanistan or wherever. But really, you are talking about a minority of the Moslem world here anyway. Similarly when the lurid stuff comes out about 911, stonings and so on. we are not exactly talking 'standard' Moslem practise here.

Cannot and should not...I like that. Don't say they cannot because they do, so they can. Should they? - of course not, but we know they do. It is not we, the West, that is intolerant. Islam is the cuckoo of the human world. It takes over the nest of others and expects the parents of those it has overwhelmed to feed its young; and it works, just like it does in the wild, right? It is insanity to adapt to the ways of ones' guests, even if it is commanded by the pc words of the lunatic fringe multicultural progressives or whatever.

We are the tolerant ones. We have welcomed many minorities and refugees into the West, offering them the benefits on a plate that great people made great sacrifices to pass on to us. It is only Islam that demands not just more, but all, and with no preconditions.

It is an evil, totalitarian ideology, and must be ruthlessly eradicated. If we as the most advanced civilisation ever have lost the will to eradicate our greatest threat, then we deserve the consequences.

Certainly Western and radical Islam are in a vicious cycle- well intentioned or not, our foreign policy in the Middle East has fed Islamic radicalism, which in turn feeds western militarism. But the main battle in Islam is being fought in the Moslem world itself, and I think the majority of societies practising a more moderate, secular form of Islam will win. Maybe all we need do (because like it or not, we're on the wane in Iraq and Afghanistan anyway, just leaving the long term thorn in the side of the Palestine issue) is make clear, enforcable rules as to what is and what isn't acceptable if they choose to come and live in our countries.

Again you make the grave, though common error of distinguishing between moderate imams and radical imams, as you have many times in past. You talk of 'moderate' Muslims as though we should join you in gazing romantically into the distant clouds, and that these wonderful people should be praised for not chopping heads off on alternate weekends.

Well then, why are there moderate Muslims and not moderate anything else? When was the last time you used the term 'moderate' in relation to any other humans on this planet? That Muslims are divided into moderate, very moderate, relatively moderate, ultra moderate, not so moderate, etc...says nothing to you, nothing at all except that there must be something terribly wrong with us?

Are you that blinded with rage against the West that gave you everything including the freedom to hate it. Wow!

By the way, you can trumpet for all you're worth about the millions of moderate Muslims, but you would still be wrong because it is not Muslims at the core of our discussions; it is Islam. There is no moderate Islam or radical Islam; there is only one Islam, and every Muslim subscribes to it even if they're still killing each other to conclusively prove which version is the right one.

Sabang has 'modern man disconnect'. Everything is negotiable and all men are reasonable, intelligent and equal. A result of growing up in a modern structured society where rights and rules are respected, I suspect.

Totally out of touch with the real, dog eat dog world (as in Attilla the Hun) that still exists out there.

You can philosophize, 'discuss', negotiate till you are blue in the face. The penny hasn't dropped. You're talking to a stone wall. Whatever reply you are getting, it's bullshit. The aim is absolute power, with or without absolute violence.

Try talking to a hungry bear. You'd prolly have better luck. And he'd prolly be more intelligent.

[By the way, you can trumpet for all you're worth about the millions of moderate Muslims, but you would still be wrong because it is not Muslims at the core of our discussions; it is Islam. There is no moderate Islam or radical Islam; there is only one Islam, and every Muslim subscribes to it even if they're still killing each other to conclusively prove which version is the right one.[/quote]

and that's the bottom line - stop trying to lull us into a false sense of security with constant claims of "they're not all like that" ? - there is only ONE Koran.

(and a green for you )

Originally Posted by FlyFree

The aim is absolute power, with or without absolute violence.

One would have to say they are utter losers then.

Originally Posted by FlyFree

Totally out of touch with the real, dog eat dog world

For a kid that was born in a council house, I did quite well out of the 'real dog eat dog' world thanks.

So Islam is the greatest threat ever to world civilisation. Since the last one, and until the next one. I think some of you folk must be scared of your own shadow. Islamic radicals need more penicillin, but western radicals need more valium.

Originally Posted by Thaiguy

stop trying to lull us into a false sense of security with constant claims of "they're not all like that" ? - there is only ONE Koran.

There's only one Bible, too. Just look at the spectrum of belief, committment, and extent to which one follows Scripture. Are all Christians united in their zeal to end abortion or capital punishment.

Well, burn my Koran and call me extremist
11:08 AM Saturday Aug 28, 2010

You'd think in America's bible belt there wouldn't be a big demand for copies of the Koran. But you can bet in Gainesville, Florida, they're flying off the shelves as fast as pregnancy tests after the school prom.

Because despite being denied a fire permit by the local fire chief, the Dove World Outreach Centre is planning a book burning session to mark the September 11, 2001 attacks. That's right, the church is hosting "International Burn a Koran Day".

It's anti-Islamic but it's not an isolated case. Muslims, who make up only about 2 per cent of the nation's population, are seeing their right to practise their religion challenged across the United States. And nowhere more than in New York's Lower Manhattan where plans to build a 13-storey Islamic centre have set off street protests and given Republicans a grandstanding opportunity that is too hard to resist.

Opponents, who say it is offensive to those who lost loved ones in the September 11 attacks, have labelled the centre the ground-zero mosque, even though it is more a centre with a prayer room and is two blocks away from the World Trade Centre site.

The American Muslims behind the project have given it the name Park51. No doubt opponents will point out that you only need to change a few of the letters around for it to read Death To America.

The Islamic centre will cost US$100 million ($142 million) and feature, among other things, a swimming pool and basketball court. If bomb-making facilities are planned, they've so far kept that quiet.

The driving force behind the project has been the Kuwaiti-born Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, who has been used by the Bush and Obama administrations to spread a message of religious tolerance in Muslim countries.

But to Republican Newt Gingrich he is an extremist trying to spread "moral confusion about the nature of radical Islamism".

On Fox News he likened building the centre to Nazis protesting next to Washington's Holocaust museum. He went on to say: "We would never accept the Japanese putting up a site next to Pearl Harbour." What sort of site he was thinking of, I'm not sure. Maybe a Zen Buddhist temple. Or maybe just a sushi stand. Hard to say.

Park51 has already received the blessings of the city's Mayor, Michael Bloomberg. It also got a convoluted endorsement from President Barack Obama, who said he supported the group's right to build an Islamic centre but, struggling to convince Americans he is a Christian, tried to make it clear he wouldn't be worshipping there.

The opponents, though, are making the most noise. Republican cheerleader Sarah Palin, who, if she stands on tiptoes on the roof of her house in Alaska can see Iran, has called for "peace-seeking Muslims" to oppose the project. Interesting tactic. She obviously knows some Muslims have heard of peace and that some may even be seeking it. I wonder if she would ask Catholics who are not sexually attracted to children to oppose churches being built next to playgrounds in the wake of the scandals that have rocked the Vatican.

Even property mogul Donald Trump got in on the act during an interview this week before his Miss Universe Pageant. "I'm a big believer in freedom of religion but I think the mosque being in that location is absolutely wrong," he said. You know what Donald, I believe your comb-over is absolutely wrong, but it's your First Amendment right to do whatever you want with your hair, regardless of what religion you practise. Meanwhile, as America alienates a group of US citizens over where a mosque, if it can actually be called a mosque, should and should not be built, it continues to send soldiers to Afghanistan to win over the hearts and minds of Muslims who are seeing more and more of their friends and family killed as a result of the US presence in their country.

Unfortunately, that sometimes happens when you are battling extremists.

Pastor Terry Jones of the Dove World Outreach Centre knows all about extremists. He has hired an armed Christian organisation, Right Wing Extreme, to protect his church on International Burn a Koran Day. And no, it's not a Monty Python skit.

Right Wing Extreme founder Shannon Carson is right behind Jones. "We fully support Dove World Outreach Centre and its efforts to put an end to the notion that Islam is a peaceful religion," said Carson, who will be sending between 500 and 2000 men to make sure the book burning goes off without a hitch. "Islam is a violent cult with the goal of world domination."

Spoken like a true extremist.

^
Great article.

Muslims, who make up only about 2 per cent of the nation's population,

Your figures are a tad off! United States -- Muslim 0.6%
Australia -- Muslim 1.5%
Canada -- Muslim 1.9%
China -- Muslim 1.8%

( latest to hand at this date)

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by FlyFree

The aim is absolute power, with or without absolute violence.

One would have to say they are utter losers then.

Just a matter of time, SB, just a matter of time. Rot the structure from within and then take over when they are totally trashed. The liberals are doing a good job of this for them. This imam is using the US Constitution and laws against the decency and wishes of the People. He is legally correct to do so, but he will lose because he has already started to foment hate.
Think I'll buy a koran to burn.

How long have these Muslims been a threat to the decent people of the western world? I am 57 years old and up until the past couple of decades it was always the Communists who were trying to take over the world. Now its the Muslims.

Hillary was in VeitNam recently organizing a nuclear capability for that country where USA fought a war of political ideology costing 60,000 US lives only a few decades ago. At the same time USA is readying for another war, this time against Muslim Iran, incidentally who USA accuse of trying to acquire nuclear weapons capability.

What ever happened to "reds under the beds" ?Is it now those Muzzie bastards we have to watch?

The fact is that Muslim nations have never been a threat to western nations in modern times until we discovered that they had OUR OIL under THEIR GROUND, and we started interfering and trying to control the politics in their countries.

The rise of radical Islam and their hatred of western countries who interfere in the politics of their own countries is a problem of our own making.

By throwing more political/military oppression at them on their home turf we are simply encouraging a grass roots rebellion under the banner of radicalization of the Islamic faith and creating a bigger and even more dangerous enemy. An enemy that doesnt even have to be an enemy in the absence of US aggression as the Yanks are now finding out in Vietnam, --- all be it 40 years too late and 60,00 young men dead. Not to mention the hundreds of thousands permanently injured or mentally scarred. And the millions of Vietnamese dead.

But yea, the profit motivated military support industry always needs a new bogeyman to fight, and now that the Commies are our friends, its the dirty Muzzies turn. Who's turn is it going to be next?