Islam Ctr Planned Next to Ground Zero

**larvidchr** · 10-10-2010, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by Panda

[
I can imagine that the likes of XXX, Larv and XXX would only be happy when all western Muslims are interned in concentration camps surrounded by razor wire, dogs and armed guards.

That is an unfair, wrong and unreasonable assumption on your part Mr. Panda.

You are only right in assuming that I think we should combat all religions, not with weapons, (unless it is necessary to defend the freedom and safety of secular democratic society's), but with political and economic pressure coupled with education education education.

Religions are inhumane dogmas based on fear and threats, mass-brainwashing, seducing and forcing people to live a lie, it is forced on children in schools, which in my view is a crime against humanity.
And Islam as such is by far the worst of them all, because it more than most religions encompasses and set's rigid unbreakable rules for all aspects of political life, justice and life in general, and because it is gender oppressive, homophobic, inhumane, expansionistic and fascistic, even in the way moderates exercise Islam.

Religion is a relic, incompatible with common sense, factual science and the necessary intellectual development of people, it is incompatible with the development of free secular democratic open society's, which is the only one thing, that possibly can bring about more global understanding, acceptance, cooperation and peace between all people regardless of origin.

**Panda** · 10-10-2010, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by larvidchr

Originally Posted by Panda

[
I can imagine that the likes of XXX, Larv and XXX would only be happy when all western Muslims are interned in concentration camps surrounded by razor wire, dogs and armed guards.

That is an unfair, wrong and unreasonable assumption on your part Mr. Panda.

You are only right in assuming that I think we should combat all religions, not with weapons, (unless it is necessary to defend the freedom and safety of secular democratic society's), but with political and economic pressure coupled with education education education.

Religions are inhumane dogmas based on fear and threats, mass-brainwashing, seducing and forcing people to live a lie, it is forced on children in schools, which in my view is a crime against humanity.
And Islam as such is by far the worst of them all, because it more than most religions encompasses and set's rigid unbreakable rules for all aspects of political life, justice and life in general, and because it is gender oppressive, homophobic, inhumane, expansionistic and fascistic, even in the way moderates exercise Islam.

Religion is a relic, incompatible with common sense, factual science and the necessary intellectual development of people, it is incompatible with the development of free secular democratic open society's, which is the only one thing, that possibly can bring about more global understanding, acceptance, cooperation and peace between all people regardless of origin.

As a confirmed Atheist and Humanist, I tend to agree with just about everything you have said there Larv.
I tolerate all religions because I have to. Not because I want to. Just a fact of life when dealing with these humans I am afraid. Space age people with stone age beliefs. But thats just the way it is.

**pickel** · 11-10-2010, 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by larvidchr

You are only right in assuming that I think we should combat all religions, not with weapons, (unless it is necessary to defend the freedom and safety of secular democratic society's), but with political and economic pressure coupled with education education education.

Well Larv, since your native Denmark has a larger Christian population than a Muslim one, what are you doing to combat it? Don't be shy, because you do fit the profile of an Islamaphobe to me. Prove me wrong.

**larvidchr** · 11-10-2010, 04:12 AM

Originally Posted by pickel

Originally Posted by larvidchr

You are only right in assuming that I think we should combat all religions, not with weapons, (unless it is necessary to defend the freedom and safety of secular democratic society's), but with political and economic pressure coupled with education education education.

Well Larv, since your native Denmark has a larger Christian population than a Muslim one, what are you doing to combat it? Don't be shy, because you do fit the profile of an Islamaphobe to me. Prove me wrong.

If being strongly opposed to the damages all religion causes, is to be among other things an "Islamophobe" to you, so be it Pickle, but it is an unusual wrong and simpleminded generalisation on your part, I am also a Chatolicphobe, a Christian right nutterphobe, a Buddhaphobe ect ect, in fact I have a phobia against all religious fanatics and all things religious that kill's, hurts, lies to, or oppresses people.

And I have explained in the post you quote why Islam is right at the top of the list.

And yes Denmarks State religion is Christianity, but you will be hard pressed to find a place more un-religious than Denmark, the churches mainly stays empty on Sundays, and I'm pretty convinced there are many more hardcore Muslims than hardcore Christian's by now in Denmark, and the Danish Christians have a very long tradition for being very relaxed indeed when it comes to practising their religion, the little Christian political party is not in the Danish parliament anymore, they cant get enough votes, even though it only takes 4% to get in, we have Female Bishops and Priest's, divorced can marry in church as many times as they like, we have gay marriages in the Danish church, and the church officially supports abortion and the use of contraceptives.

For my part I opted out of religious education already at school with the consent of my parents, and used my time with something more sensible (that was an option). I have not, as a conscious choice at the time, taken the pledge to God and the church as a teenager like normal Christians do, and I am not a member of the Danish Church and as such do not pay church-taxes, like the rest of the 1 million Danes that actively have taken the trouble to opt out, (you become a member automatically, the only reason why so many are members), In 2006 marriages in the town-hall by the Mayor surpassed church-weddings in Denmark and are now in fact the most common form of marriage, it is difficult to find anywhere, where Religion have less space in politics and daily life than Denmark Pickle. I support and have actively with my vote supported the development away from any religious influences on life and society.

I believe the 9/11 mosque at WTC will be yet another religious trouble spot, a cause of conflict, deliberately instigated by the financiers and backers, and when Rauf says that they have to built it because otherwise radical Muslims outside the US will be enraged and cause trouble, I need no more reasons to say that the Mosque should not be built.

Thaiguy · 11-10-2010, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by Panda
Your hysterical quotes are indeed amusing. If the 2.5 million Muslims in USA
actually believed that shit (as you do), there would be a civil war going on with millions dead.

I dare you to go to any mosque and tell all present how you find the sacred words of Allah and Mohammed so hysterically funny.

Turning the spotlight off the real threat to citizens of the west (which is the radicalization of Muslims due to invasion of their countries and their terrorist threat) and onto peaceful fellow citizens who happen to be of the Muslim faith is a rather bizarre knee jerk reaction of the weak minded and paranoid
.
What a crock of crap ! do you suggest we just look the other way and ignore
whats happening in Europe - next you'll be telling me that "moderates" exist that aren't frightened of retaliation by the fundamentalists - the fanatics are in charge. - dream on or have another go at the gunja.

I can imagine that the likes of you, Larv and Tunaka would only be happy when all western Muslims are interned in concentration camps surrounded by razor wire, dogs and armed guards.

Hmmmm, yes I have given this some thought and have come to the conclusion that in the best interests of my family ,country and myself, that would be the most desirable outcome.

**Tunaka** · 11-10-2010, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by Thaiguy

I dare you to go to any mosque and tell all present how you find the sacred words of Allah and Mohammed so hysterically funny.

That might be dangerous.

I think muslims are more difficult to talk with, discuss their Quran, and criticize than other religions.

**sabang** · 11-10-2010, 11:24 AM

^ That really depends on the type of Muslim you are referring to. But at the end of the day, I don't see much point in discussing any religion with someone committed to it. It all rests on Faith, rather than logic. There is no rational debating with that. If they don't want to bomb me, they can believe the moons a balloon for all I care.

Well good, at least we're getting to one tacitly accepted point of agreement, which I think is important. The 'Ground Zero Mosque' thing is a red herring (as well as a lie)- it's really about Islam. For the record larv, no I do not think everyone opposed to the Park 51 development is a fringe loonie. Several of those whipping up the controversy are however, and the lies and disinformation they are spreading is shameful. I do think that those at the more rational end of things that oppose the development have got their thinking wrong.

Bottom line is, we should be encouraging the moderate and open practise of Islam- and any other religion for that matter- over the Fundamentalist, closed practise. Park 51, apart from not being a Mosque at all, is a very good example of the former. It is not even denominational- ie Sunni, Shiite, Wahhabi, whatever. It is not even 'Moslem' actually- it is open to all, and the board consists of Christians, Jews and Moslems. I worked in the World Financial Centre (joined to WTC) for a while with an Investment Bank, and lived for a month in the World Trade Center Marriot, so I'm a bit familiar with the local area- racially very mixed, and certainly not all rich Yuppes. Then I moved to a shared condo on the Upper West side- quite close to the 92nd St Y as it happens. I can assure you the Y is not just frequented by Jews, far from it- I myself worked out there a couple of times, because it was the cheapest around. It is about as much a 'trojan horse' for Judaism as a lox bagel. Park 51 is of course modeled on the Y, and will be made much the same use of by the cosmopolitan local community- ie those who live or work locally. I would think the floor devoted to day childcare alone will be a valuable local service.

At the end of the day, and whatever your individual reasons, your protestations will be in vain, I am pretty sure. There is too much at stake here- matters to do with the US Constitution & Bill of Rights (ie national integrity), the law of the land, and international relations- particularly with the Moslem world, which is not small. The best you can hope for would be for the community center to be moved elsewhere in lower Manhattan- a Pyrrhic victory at best, seeing as Cordoba would be effectively bribed to move, so you would just end up with a bigger and grander Community center funded by a moderate Moslem foundation, or maybe even two.

And whats the point? This is the sort of Islam we should be- and already are- encouraging. As dubya said, we are not at war with Islam. And if you haven't already met many Moslems in several places that are perfectly moderate, productive citizens you must have lived in an iron lung. Apart from the local community, the significant Jewish community in NYC is in favour of it too- not to say that certain individuals aren't of course. I think you're whistlin' dixie really, and lashing out at entirely the wrong thing because of your issues with certain aspects of Islam, which sure ain't represented by the Cordoba Foundation and a Community center.

**hazz** · 11-10-2010, 11:38 AM

When I hear the word islamaphobe being bantered across, for some reason I have an image of a Klan member in a pointed hat talking about all the discrimination white people face in america.

Islam is both a religion and a political movement. To be opposed to the practices of that religion and to strongly object to the aims of the political movement does not make you a islamaphobe.

Consider the catholic church's attitude towards IVF. It is vocal, load and at time's not very rational; just like this thread. But its their opinion, their right to have it and our right to accept or ignore it. I haven't seen anyone inventing new phobe words to cover either side of the argument.

If you are going to call someone a islamaphobe, unless you are simply using it as a last ditch attempt to discredit someone whose arguments you cannot counter, please treat the word with the same respect as pedophile and racist and explain exactly why you think the person is a islamaphobe rather than someone who just does not like islam for philosophical or political reasons.

Personally I feel that 'islamaphobe' was invented by moslems with a serious case of exceptionalism; as a way of defending their fragile egos against logical discussions of their religion that threatened that ego. Lots of religions and societies go down this road; how many of us have heard the phrase.... "you are not thai, you cannot not understand" as a defence of the indefensible.

**Cujo** · 11-10-2010, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by pickel

Originally Posted by larvidchr

You are only right in assuming that I think we should combat all religions, not with weapons, (unless it is necessary to defend the freedom and safety of secular democratic society's), but with political and economic pressure coupled with education education education.

Well Larv, since your native Denmark has a larger Christian population than a Muslim one, what are you doing to combat it? Don't be shy, because you do fit the profile of an Islamaphobe to me. Prove me wrong.

Why would he have to, or want to , or feel the need to, prove you wrong??

**Cujo** · 11-10-2010, 11:58 AM

how about a new term for muslims 'infidelophobe.'

**sabang** · 11-10-2010, 12:08 PM

Sure, and in this 'perfect world' there are two kinds of people- Islamophobes and Infidelophobes. I don't think so.

**Panda** · 11-10-2010, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by hazz

When I hear the word islamaphobe being bantered across, for some reason I have an image of a Klan member in a pointed hat talking about all the discrimination white people face in america.

Islam is both a religion and a political movement. To be opposed to the practices of that religion and to strongly object to the aims of the political movement does not make you a islamaphobe.

Consider the catholic church's attitude towards IVF. It is vocal, load and at time's not very rational; just like this thread. But its their opinion, their right to have it and our right to accept or ignore it. I haven't seen anyone inventing new phobe words to cover either side of the argument.

If you are going to call someone a islamaphobe, unless you are simply using it as a last ditch attempt to discredit someone whose arguments you cannot counter, please treat the word with the same respect as pedophile and racist and explain exactly why you think the person is a islamaphobe rather than someone who just does not like islam for philosophical or political reasons.

Personally I feel that 'islamaphobe' was invented by moslems with a serious case of exceptionalism; as a way of defending their fragile egos against logical discussions of their religion that threatened that ego. Lots of religions and societies go down this road; how many of us have heard the phrase.... "you are not thai, you cannot not understand" as a defence of the indefensible.

A "phobia" is an irrational fear of something. An Islamophobe is someone who has an irrational fear of all things Islamic. Quite simple really.

**hazz** · 11-10-2010, 11:02 PM

Originally Posted by Panda

A "phobia" is an irrational fear of something. An Islamophobe is someone who has an irrational fear of all things Islamic. Quite simple really.

So please enlighten me as to how to differentiate between someone who has an irrational fear of islam and someone who just doesn't like its ideals and what it's up to as a movement. Because I see islamaphobe being bantered around when anyone says anything critical of islam covering much more than irrational fears.

**oldgit** · 25-10-2010, 03:44 PM

Hi - a very enlightened friend of mine sent me this email about the proposed mosque centre near 9/11 Ground Zero. I find it an interesting point of view, if a bit over-the-top, and thought you might be interested too. Some of you will already know or be able to identify who the sender is ....... M

Subject: Tolerance

I am perplexed that so many people in the USA are against a mosque being built
near Ground Zero. I think it should be the goal of every citizen to be
tolerant. The mosque should be allowed, in an effort to promote tolerance.

That is why I also propose, that two gay nightclubs be opened next door
to the mosque thereby promoting tolerance within the mosque. We could call
the clubs "The Turban Cowboy" and "You Mecca Me So Hot".

Next door should be a butcher shop that specializes in pork and have an
open barbeque with spare ribs as its daily special. Across the street a
very daring lingerie store called "Victoria Keeps Nothing Secret" with sexy
mannequins in the window modelling the goods.

Next door to the lingerie shop, there would be room for an Adult Toy Shop
(Koranal Knowledge?), its name in flashing neon lights, and on the other
side a liquor store, maybe call it "Morehammered"?
If you agree in promoting tolerance and you think this is a good plan,

**sabang** · 01-11-2010, 07:32 AM

The area in question already hosts strip joints, pawnbrokers, gay bars etc.
Apparently when Times Square was cleaned up, a fair bit of the sleaze moved down there.

**Panda** · 01-11-2010, 07:27 PM

Yes, western Muslims are accustomed to living in western society with all the debauchery that goes on, just like Christians, Jews and other religions whose followers might not approve of it.

Amazing isn't it that some anonymous email author, and indeed many of the readers of such stuff actually believe all Muslims in western countries would be so shocked by the sleazy side of our society that they would take off and run to some place else.

Thread: Islam Ctr Planned Next to Ground Zero

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