Thread: Islam Ctr Planned Next to Ground Zero

^ 550^
I shan't bother; Allah hates me enough already.

Originally Posted by MrG

Originally Posted by Thaiguy

stop trying to lull us into a false sense of security with constant claims of "they're not all like that" ? - there is only ONE Koran.

There's only one Bible, too. Just look at the spectrum of belief, committment, and extent to which one follows Scripture. Are all Christians united in their zeal to end abortion or capital punishment.

I wouldn't think so as the bible doesn't instruct them to - BUT - the difference is that the Koran DOES instruct all it's followers to follow the tyranical instructions of its medieaval belieifs.

You are right. Still, allowance should be made for otherwise rational people that simply cannot get their head around the Islamic concept of taking the words of god literally, and of emulating 'in perpetuity' the words and deeds of the 'perfect' man.

Must confess it can't be easy to voluntarily submit to such absurdities.

As said earlier, if you want to radicalize moderate Muslims against the west , just keep bombing their countries, killing civilians and taking control of their governments. The difference between moderate Muslims and radical Muslims is what the west does. This notion of all Muslims being intent on killing all infidels and taking over the world is totally irresponsible groundless panic just making the whole situation a lot worse .

Originally Posted by Panda

As said earlier, if you want to radicalize moderate Muslims against the west , just keep bombing their countries, killing civilians and taking control of their governments. The difference between moderate Muslims and radical Muslims is what the west does. This notion of all Muslims being intent on killing all infidels and taking over the world is totally irresponsible groundless panic just making the whole situation a lot worse .

Funny. So, they quit doing terrorist crap in Spain after Spain pulled its ten troops outta the NATO effort? How about France? Why do the Sunni and Shiites still kill each other off in Iraq? Indonesia...did the Balinese or Timorese offend them?
Pfft, you're reasoning is thin, pandy. They want to dominate and the West is easy pickings because of the liberal laws and easy immigration. Besides, in 20 or so years, they won't need to be radical, they'll just take over the govts of Europe by voting in their imams.

Originally Posted by genghis61

Well, burn my Koran and call me extremist
11:08 AM Saturday Aug 28, 2010


...is more a centre with a prayer room and is two blocks away from the World Trade Centre site.

The American Muslims behind the project have given it the name Park51. No doubt opponents will point out that you only need to change a few of the letters around for it to read Death To America.

The Islamic centre will cost US$100 million ($142 million) and feature, among other things, a swimming pool and basketball court. If bomb-making facilities are planned, they've so far kept that quiet.



...hired an armed Christian organisation, Right Wing Extreme, to protect his church on International Burn a Koran Day.

C L A S S I C Funny !!

But yea, the profit motivated military support industry always needs a new bogeyman to fight, and now that the Commies are our friends, its the dirty Muzzies turn. Who's turn is it going to be next?[/quote]

I think it's a case of "One threat at a time ".
The world was smaller then , now it's easier for Moslems to spread and infect a greater part of the world in a shorter time.
Sort of a pandemic, very similar to "swine flu" but a million times more deadly.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Originally Posted by Panda

As said earlier, if you want to radicalize moderate Muslims against the west , just keep bombing their countries, killing civilians and taking control of their governments. The difference between moderate Muslims and radical Muslims is what the west does. This notion of all Muslims being intent on killing all infidels and taking over the world is totally irresponsible groundless panic just making the whole situation a lot worse .

Funny. So, they quit doing terrorist crap in Spain after Spain pulled its ten troops outta the NATO effort? How about France? Why do the Sunni and Shiites still kill each other off in Iraq? Indonesia...did the Balinese or Timorese offend them?
Pfft, you're reasoning is thin, pandy. They want to dominate and the West is easy pickings because of the liberal laws and easy immigration. Besides, in 20 or so years, they won't need to be radical, they'll just take over the govts of Europe by voting in their imams.

What really bugs me is the number of Australians who periodically start jumping up and down demanding a republic?
For a start Liz doesn't interfere in anyway and costs us nothing , go to a republic and make a million solicitors extremely wealthy changing all the terminology in our laws , changing all the govt. letterheads , debating in the supreme courts the changes to the constitution etc. etc - and what about the possability of a MOSLEM PRESIDENT? - did that ever occur to them? - something to look forward to ?

Originally Posted by sabang

...Rather off topic, but no I do not consider Hamas a terrorist organisation or more to the point (because there certainly are Hamas terrorists) it is as meaningless to call it a Terrorist organisation as it is Hezbollah- they are multi-faceted organisations. A traffic cop working for Hamas is no more a terrorist than a nurse working for Hezbollah.

Hash, more hash. You've been in the civilised world too long and so despise it that the most you are able to concede is that Hamas is only 'partly' a terrorist organisation; and that's after heavy duty soul searching, and naturally with your trademark string of hypocritical buts. That's all anyone ever gets from you; phony commitment to an indefensible cause.

And as far as Imam Rauf criticising aspects of US foreign policy while he condemns Islamic terrorism, I say good on him- and for that matter what he said was entirely reasonable. He would also score a point by reminding several of his international audiences that it is his right to do so as a US citizen, a right many of them do not possess.

Yet again you demonstrate how gullible one needs to be in order to swallow that crap. Where does your hero condemn Islamic terrorism? Easy, lots of places so no need to pressure google. Only, to Rauf, there is no such thing as Islamic Terrorism, so indeed he speaks the truth in condemning something that doesn't exist, except in the minds of the infidel that cannot (or in your case refuses to) comprehend the full frontal deceit of Islam.

Likewise, there is no such thing as an innocent non-Muslim, which is why Rauf and your other 'moderate' terror loving heroes are sincere when they condemn the murder of innocents. Only, innocents, to you, well, not you, civilised people that are not consumed with suicidal hatred, includes women and children and other civilians. Innocent, to those you idolise, means any Muslim.

Stop showing how easily you are fooled into swallowing whatever defenders of your hate-filled faith spout to the generally naive infidel.

You are supposed to be a TD mod. Act like one!

As far as moving the center goes, it is a band aid solution really- you can bet the Cordoba Foundation would be handsomely bribed for it's acquiescence- so the Right will just be up in arms again at US money subsidising a bigger Community centre in lower Manhattan. I don't rule it out, but the real Issue here is the trumped up, over-hyped Opposition- which is both well out of order, and damaging for the US internationally.

Check out the significance of Cordoba to Islam; if you can't be bothered with mumbo jumbo, which as you fessed can be overwhelming when the hole you're in only gets deeper the more you dig, then just ask.

Then take another look at your own fraudulent arguments that you compound by yet again moving to dismiss the GZM scam upon the American people, by pointing at the sideshow of taxpayer subsidies, whether for the GZM or any other construct that furthers the cause of the evil ideology.

As for your closing remark, the real issue is neither trumped up nor over-hyped; the real issue is Islam. But you know that, already.

I hope you wiped the spittle flecks off your monitor, geezer.

Is this bloke moderate enough for you then-

On Saturday, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, 89, spiritual leader to the Israeli Shas party, condemned upcoming Israeli-Palestinian peace talks, and called for the Palestinians and their political leader Mahmoud Abbas to “perish from this world,” Israeli media reported.

“Abu Mazen and all these evil people should perish from this world," Rabbi Ovadia was cited by Israeli media as saying in his weekly sermon, using the nickname for Abbas. "God should strike them with a plague, them and these Palestinians."
Laura Rozen: on foreign policy - POLITICO.com

Reckon I'll just leave you, your righteous army, and your brothers the Islamic loonies to wage global jihad against each other.

Meanwhile, non-Jihadists might find this text from the International crisis group interesting. Short snippet-

Understanding Islamism

Reacting to the spectacular and violent events of 11 September 2001, many Western observers and policy-makers have tended to lump all forms of Islamism together, brand them as radical and treat them as hostile. That approach is fundamentally misconceived. Islamism - or Islamic activism (we treat these terms as synonymous) - has a number of very different streams, only a few of them violent and only a small minority justifying a confrontational response. The West needs a discriminating strategy that takes account of the diversity of outlooks within political Islamism; that accepts that even the most modernist of Islamists are deeply opposed to current U.S. policies and committed to renegotiating their relations with the West; and that understands that the festering Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the war occupation of Iraq, and the way in which the "war against terrorism" is being waged all significantly strengthen the appeal of the most virulent and dangerous jihadi tendencies.

Understanding Islamism - International Crisis Group


With you and your fellow apocalyptic Jihadi's there is no rational debating Keda- it's all part of the 'Great Islamic Conspiracy'. Yet here am I just thinking this is a whipped up storm in a teacup- a privately owned Community centre being developed in a nondescript, even seedy, side street a couple of blocks away from the nearest edge of the WTC- but more like five blocks from the nearest part of actual GZ, the North Tower. And the owner/developer is a moderate Moslem Foundation, who apart from the pool, gym, food court & stuff are putting in a Moslem prayer room (Mosque if you prefer), although the center is open to people of all faiths and nationalities. Like wow, the great Islamic Conspiracy strikes again.

^ SB, you can spout rhetoric from your side of the debate forever and it will still be wrong. It's funny how you leftists translate any comments from any Conservative into something that is filled will racism, hate and bigotry. You all purport to be so smart, yet you cannae see the plain facts in front of your face. I hear Al Sharpton calling you. I think he is still smarting from being totally trounced by Beck on Saturday. Perhaps you could share your Kool-Aid with him, not that he needs more.

And, erm, I thought one-liner posts were verboten in Issues, or are some lefties exempt?

Originally Posted by sabang

I hope you wiped the spittle flecks off your monitor, geezer.

Is this bloke moderate enough for you then-

[I]On Saturday, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, 89, spiritual leader to the Israeli Shas party, condemned upcoming Israeli-Palestinian peace talks, and called for the Palestinians and their political leader Mahmoud Abbas to “perish from this world,” Israeli media reported...

You can't resist it, can you!

Anyway, as you are aware, there is no response I could make to the content of your post without referring to your trademark characteristic of pointing every which way but at the topic, since this would breach certain 'background noise', right?

Therefore, let's start by making it clear that this post is not directed at you, sabang, but at other thick skinned liberals that cannot stay the course in rational discourse, that cannot stay on topic, and that frantically search the web for instances of Jewish and Christian imperfections whenever they are pinned to the floor defending Islam.


The imam that some (not you) would like us to believe is a 'moderate', in fact advocates tolerance only to the naive Westerner, while his book advocates Sharia, which is intolerance. Someone I know claims to have once met a mealy mouthed liberal that actually conceded this irrefutable fact, though only in part.

Rauf says the Christian Arabs in Malaysia were acting legally despite their churches being burned and people attacked, yet calls their actions provocative in the same manner as the proposed GZM is both 'legal' and a provocation. Only, he covets the patent of legality for Islam.

The same 'moderate' Rauf claims there will be no foreign funding for the GZM, and then goes on an all expenses SD paid fundraising trip abroad to draw pledges.

Rauf (and others, even on this illustrious board) says there will be no mosque at GZM, only a 'prayer space', and then when cornered says a prayer space is indeed a mosque.

If ever a document were opposed to and incompatible with Sharia, it would be the US Constitution. Yet the litmus tested imam that some describe as hopelessly 'moderate', claims that the US Constitution is Sharia compliant.

The English title of the average practicing honest and decent moderate imam Rauf's book is, 'What's right with America is right with Islam'. This title is miraculously mistranslated for a more devout audience, into, 'A Call to Prayer from the World Trade Center Rubble: Islamic Dawa (mission, or invitation) in the Heart of America Post 9/11."

I expect our liberally brain dead apologists (definitely not you) to dismiss all of this as untrue bigoted islamophobic nonsense, on the ground that it was posted on Atlasshrugs.com which as we know is not one of the loony left's pet sites. Or, some of them might resort to cowardly evasion by reminding us that pre-modern Christian conquistadors killed many South American natives.


Inbreds that defend Islam find the above distasteful, which is why their deceitful nature compels them to spew layer upon layer of smoke and bile as a firewall for the contemptible ideology. These people (not you) are cowards that know they are holding an indefensible position, and that their best and only face saving recourse is to switch the target and hope others don't notice.


By the way, having now read the rest of your post which is quoted in part above, I resent the fact that 'the background noise' referred to earlier apparently applies one way only.

Examples:

Reckon I'll just leave you, your righteous army, and your brothers the Islamic loonies to wage global jihad against each other.

With you and your fellow apocalyptic Jihadi's there is no rational debating Keda- it's all part of the 'Great Islamic Conspiracy'.

Is this a fatwa against those with an opinion? I think we should know!

^
I would think the guidelines applies equal to everybody, not getting personal and debating the issue at hand rather than the poster is the preferred way, things can get heated, but it is great when posters recognize that, cool down and move on.

But name-calling en bloc is not the way to debate either.

^ Just because rauf speaks softly, does not mean he's a moderate, SB. He is not. You refuse to accept the facts we have provided already.

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by keda

The imam that some (not you) would like us to believe is a 'moderate',

You can certainly add me to that list Keda- he is moderate. People like him I would much prefer to be running places of worship, or speaking for their religion and/or adopted homeland, than firebrands, Fundamentalists and bigots. I don't have to believe in everything he says, or even in his religion, to say he is a much better advocate for his own POV than that lunatic Florida church (more like a Cult) that wants to have a nice Koran burning day on the 9th September are for theirs.

If you say he is a moderate because he is less radical than many others, then yes I would rather have him as my neighbour than Khomeini.

I'll put this explicitly- it is people like them that pose a much bigger threat to the American way of life and personal freedoms than does Imam Rauf and what he stands for. But they are only a lunatic fringe, and safe enough if they stay that way.

That's not even subjective; it's laughable.

Sharia, Sharia, Sharia. Saudi Arabian exceptionalism may last forever for all I know- it is after all a family owned Sheikdom rather than a normal nation state, and of course the 'Holy of Holies' as far as Islam is concerned...

It's as you say a family business. It is also a franchise, and viral.

...but the trend in the Moslem world is absolutely not towards Sharia law or Theocracy.

What makes you believe this, or is it just another throwaway statement that makes you appear able to validate your position?

I hope the fact that western foreign policy has in many cases contributed to Islamic extremism (not the same as Fundamentalism btw, but often closely associated) will die down somewhat in coming years, because at the end of the day the USA can neither afford or justify permanently garrisoning the Middle East to the extent that it is now...

You've been reading up on Rauf, haven't you! That's much what he said. Only, he realised it was unlikely to endear the fence hoppers to his side, and tried to use the now familiar 'out of context' blurb. Only, the entire text of his speech is a matter of record, so there's nothing to take out of context; it's called a stunt, which you may be familiar with. Like many others and countless times, he probably figured most people are too lazy to go check for themselves.

Just keep that oil flowing, while we work on other more sustainable and cleaner energy sources.

One of only two (?) events that imho can make the critical difference, if handled properly.

Just a guess here Keda- and do correct me if I'm wrong. Would it be true to say that in several ways you consider a moderately inclined Islamic scholar like Rauf, and the Cordoba project, to be more dangerous than a good old fashioned religious firebrand- because you see it as a Trojan horse, leading inexorably to the Islamisation of ze world?

It may have something to do with monkeys and typewriters, and you fluffed it with the typo, but I guess thanks are in order; so, thanks. Not sure yours is a good guess at all, but it's certainly the basis for probably the most difficult and involved question on the board in a while. Could end up with lots of fur flying, so gimme time to ponder...may be a while.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

^ Just because rauf speaks softly, does not mean he's a moderate, SB. He is not. You refuse to accept the facts we have provided already.

I'm convinced sabang is playing devils advocate 99% of the time. No one can continually support his positions the way he does in light of the facts - in this case, that imnam on tape, eh?

It's crossed my mind, too.

^ You just embrace the left wing rant, SB. Park 51? How convenient; kinda like man-made disaster. The imam refuses to condemn Hamas, shuns the press, "builds bridges" by pissing on the wishes of 70% of American people, says the mosque brouhaha is only related to the Nov elections, and is now running back to the US to smooth feathers (erm, how about he likely already got enough money to fund the building?).
Yes, we used to have issues with Catholics and Jews, but they never blew up 3,000 citizens or held terrorist attacks against others in the US in the name of their God, did they?

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

You just embrace the left wing rant, SB.

How objective of you. Actually I embrace the moderate rant, unless you consider the US state department to be a tool of the Great Islamic Conspiracy.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Park 51? How convenient;

I guess it's address is quite convenient. "Ground Zero Mosque"? how convenient.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

says the mosque brouhaha is only related to the Nov elections,

Well, as if! I'm sure Limbaugh will be outraged by this outrageous conspiracy theory.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Catholics and Jews, but they never blew up 3,000 citizens or held terrorist attacks against others in the US in the name of their God, did they?

What certain people that practise those and other religions have done in the name of their God is unspeakable. Personally, I'd prefer we not impugn the name of God by associating him or her with a few evil people that blaspheme the name. I'm pleased to say the vast majority of Catholics, Jews, Moslems etc do no such thing. I'm damn sure Rauf hasn't, and so is State.

^ You missed the point again, SB; it was previously called Cordoba House, remember?
You wanna go back to the Inquisition and stuff? I'm talking here and now; the Christians have gotten over doing that sh*t.

You can call it anything you damn well want to call it Jettie, the point remains the same.

And if you want to call the term 'Park 51' propaganda or whitewashing, how do you justify your term for a development that is not at Ground Zero, and would not normally be termed a Mosque in common parlance, just as 92nd Y is not termed a Synagogue?

I am wise to the 'tricks' of Linguistics and Demagoguery and, I fully admit, employ them myself at times.

^ I know you do. So, you just carry on with your leftist charade and keep your blinkers on.