Thread: Islam Ctr Planned Next to Ground Zero

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Why do you keep making excuses?

No excuses need be made- it is a local issue, it has been through all of the relevant legal and planning processes, and the local community is in favour of it. It is also being drummed up as a cause celebre' by the right, for political purposes. What are the excuses of the Park 51 Opponents for wanting to violate the US Bill of Rights and Constitution, and Laws of private property??...

What's a local issue, and who decides? Is a local issue when the POTUS makes no comment, or when a POTUS does make a comment and then backpedals because according to the rest of the world he shouldn't because it's a local issue? Are local issues determined by who is involved (black victims, Muslim victims, white racists) or what? Wish I knew!

Originally Posted by keda

when a POTUS does make a comment

Potus made a mistake commenting imo- because the Right (aka Limbaugh Fox Tea Party) then seized on it and politicised it. If anything, his comment should have just been 'it's a local issue', or none at all.

When the project was first announced in the NY Times back in 2009, there was absolutely no controversy- a community centre in lower Manhattan, good news for local residents I suppose, good news for Muslims in that part of town I guess, apart from that a collective shrug- hardly front page news. It should have stayed that way.

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by keda

when a POTUS does make a comment

Potus made a mistake commenting imo- because the Right (aka Limbaugh Fox Tea Party) then seized on it and politicised it. If anything, his comment should have just been 'it's a local issue', or none at all...

So it wasn't POTUS that politicised it by making the ill advised comment, but the loony right that grabbed and ran with it.

The NYT and HuffPo have much to learn from you.

^ SB is just making diversions. WTF he cares so much about this place is beyond me.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

WTF he cares so much about this place is beyond me.

Thats the whole point- I don't, and neither should you or anyone else. It's not at GZ, and not at the WTC- It's in a seedy side street in what once would have been called the garment district. Truly a storm in a teacup.

The thing is that NONE of the US citizens involved in building this proposed Islamic community center were responsible for 9/11.

The attack was committed by a bunch of radical Muslim terrorists (mainly from Saudi Arabia) primarily for political, NOT religious reasons, -- namely USAs meddling in the Middle East politics.
The very fact that the terrorists banded together under a RADICAL Muslim banner should be enough to differentiate them from USAs 7 million or so other Muslims.
But alas, when the war drums are beating many normal people become paranoid and in their fear and wrath tend to demonize, not just the actual enemy, but anyone who resembles the enemy by way of faith or nationality.
Irrational paranoid hate fanned along by the propaganda of politicans seeking to make personal gain from the lynch mob mentality.

Ask yourself the question,-- had it been a radical Christian group who destroyed the Twin Towers, would there be the same outrage over Methodists, Catholics, Baptists or C of E building a church and community center in the same proposed place?

Originally Posted by Panda

when the war drums are beating many normal people become paranoid and in their fear and wrath tend to demonize, not just the actual enemy, but anyone who resembles the enemy by way of faith or nationality.

Not in America Panda. Never happen.

"Manzanar is most widely known as the site of one of ten camps where over 110,000 Japanese Americans were imprisoned during World War II."

^ You forgot the Germans and the Italians, Norts. All things change during war. You shoulda told the Japs not to bomb Pearl Harbour. It's funny what happens in times of emergency, when people are panicked. One example: I was shocked to hear that New Zealand imposed a curfew after the recent earthquake because of looting. Imagine! Those totally passive Kiwis looting!

Originally Posted by Panda

Ask yourself the question,-- had it been a radical Christian group who destroyed the Twin Towers, would there be the same outrage over Methodists, Catholics, Baptists or C of E building a church and community center in the same proposed place?

Sure, if the Christian terrorists were screaming "For Jehovah" or "Glory be to My Christian God of My Baptist Church" when they slaughtered a bunch of people.

Now we have some Yank religious nutter leading a movement for a mass burning of the Koran.

I would ask people like Jet and Keda if they think this nut case is representative of all Christianity? Or is he simply the leader of a radical minority?

U.S. church plans to burn Korans on 9/11 anniversary will 'endanger' troops in Afghanistan, warns American commander


By Mail Foreign Service

Last updated at 9:15 AM on 7th September 2010

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Plans by a U.S. church to burn copies of the Koran on the anniversary of the 9/11 terror attacks will increase the risk to soldiers fighting in Afghanistan, a commander has warned.

There were also fears the provocative action of burning the Muslim holy book could lead to attacks on American citizens throughout the world.
General David Petraeus said: 'Images of the burning of a Koran would undoubtedly be used by extremists in Afghanistan - and around the world - to inflame public opinion and incite violence.


Read more: US church plans to burn Korans on 9/11 will 'endanger' troops in Afghanistan | Mail Online

U.S. church plans to burn Korans on 9/11 anniversary will 'endanger' troops in Afghanistan, warns American commander

He is undoubtedly a nutcase Panda, but that is not the problem since there is no law that forbids stupidity or nutters, the problem is that burning a "fucking book" could lead other even bigger lunatics to kill people because of it, and there is definitely laws against that, there is no comparison in the lunacy here, if you and I want to burn any kind off books that is nobodies but our own business, as long as the books are ours to do with what we want.

Originally Posted by Panda

Now we have some Yank religious nutter leading a movement for a mass burning of the Koran.

I would ask people like Jet and Keda if they think this nut case is representative of all Christianity? Or is he simply the leader of a radical minority? ...

I think it's a dumb idea, but don't know enough about who's behind it to label them as anything. And no I don't think he's representative of all Christianity; why should anyone think that?

Otoh, the way civilised societies are held to remarkably higher standards than the barbarian, if I were a radical Muslim I would protest as expected but make no move at all that might stop it from happening. I would privately welcome them to go ahead, and then wring every inch out of it.

^ Agree. Initially, I didn't really care, but now I don't support the koran burning although they have the right to do it. The diff here, dear pandy bear, is these Christians have not killed anybody in the name of God. I do, however, expect retribution from those peaceful mozzies. They've already burned the pastor in effigy in Kabul. Amazing how quickly anti-allah news sweeps thru these poor areas. Must be CNN.

Much like the Mohamed cartoons, most of the rentamob and those killed in the riots hadn't even seen them but were told all they ever need to know, that they were offensive to Allah.

Arr yes. They have the right to do it. Its perfectly legal to burn the Muslim holy book in USA. The intent however, is clearly to incite hatred and disrespect towards all Muslims who hold the book sacred.
As if there isn't enough of that hysterical paranoia going on at the moment, --- (eg; ^ )


"Among the incidents under investigation as potential hate crimes, all dating from July and August:
_ A Muslim cab driver in New York City had his face and throat slashed in a suspected hate crime. Michael Enright of Brewster, N.Y., has been indicted on state hate-crime charges in the attack and could also face assault and attempted murder charges.
_ Arson at the site of a future mosque in Murfreesboro, where leaders of the local Islamic Center won permission in the spring to build a new mosque after outgrowing their rented space.
_ A brick nearly smashed a window at the Madera Islamic Center in central California, where signs were left behind that read, "Wake up America, the enemy is here," and "No temple for the god of terrorism."
_ A fire and graffiti at the Dar El-Eman Islamic Center in Arlington, Texas.
_ Police arrested five teenagers after the son of one of the founders of a mosque in Waterport, N.Y., on Lake Ontario was sideswiped by a sport utility vehicle. One teen was charged with firing a shotgun in the air near the mosque a few days earlier."
The Associated Press: DOJ investigating at least 5 anti-Muslim acts

In contrast to a radical Christian minority which is trying to whip up hatred against all Muslims, there is no such malice or intent by the Muslims (and US citizens) who propose to build the Muslim center a few blocks from 9/11 ground zero.

US government and military leaders have condemned this (so called Christian Churchs) attempt to incite religious hatred. As have the leaders of all the major faiths in USA Including the Jewish. Read about in NY Times article in the link below, ---

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/08/us/08muslim.html

The man organizing the burning is a guy called Terry Jones, pastor at the 'Dove World Outreach Center'.

The last organized book burnings in the West were done by the Krauts. So Terry is in good company

Originally Posted by Pol the Pot

The man organizing the burning is a guy called Terry Jones, pastor at the 'Dove World Outreach Center'.

The last organized book burnings in the West were done by the Krauts. So Terry is in good company

That had a congregation of 50. Half left the congregation when the burning was announced.

The media will decide how big a deal this becomes.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

And those peaceful mozzies have never done anything besides slaughtering about 3,000 folks on 9/11?

Kinda pales into insignificance compared to the mass slaughter of well over 100,000 that ensued in Iraq.

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

And those peaceful mozzies have never done anything besides slaughtering about 3,000 folks on 9/11?

Kinda pales into insignificance compared to the mass slaughter of well over 100,000 that ensued in Iraq.

Sure, SB. Slaughter? Not combat? How many did Hussein kill?

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Slaughter?

Loads of it.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Not combat?

Not the sort of combat you see on a Hollywood diet.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

How many did Hussein kill?

Too bladdy many. Don't see why we had to break his record, and foot the bill too.

^ Try again, SB. Yes, civilians were killed by US soldiers, but often by criminals and Iraqis. The diff is, the US and NATO do not target civilians; the enemy does.
Do you think nobody gets killed in war? Perhaps it should be simulated so nobody is injured. Just round up everyone who was in the area when the gameboy attack was made and gas them.
A pity you never joined the forces, nor have anything but disdain for what they do and how they protect us. You should show some respect.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

A pity you never joined the forces, nor have anything but disdain for what they do and how they protect us. You should show some respect.

Ever heard of Annapolis? I went through the Australian version of Annapolis, the Royal Australian Naval College. I was indeed in the forces.

Like it or not, the military in Afhghanistan does sometimes target civilians, although not as the primary target. Several times gatherings where a senior Taliban leader or two is present- or believed to be present- have been hit by predator drones. Thats just part of the complex moral arithmetic of war.

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

A pity you never joined the forces, nor have anything but disdain for what they do and how they protect us. You should show some respect.

Ever heard of Annapolis? I went through the Australian version of Annapolis, the Royal Australian Naval College. I was indeed in the forces.

Like it or not, the military in Afhghanistan does sometimes target civilians, although not as the primary target. Several times gatherings where a senior Taliban leader or two is present- or believed to be present- have been hit by predator drones. Thats just part of the complex moral arithmetic of war.

How nice for you. Did you see combat or shuffle papers?
The US and NATO never target civilians. It's in the ROE. Prove me wrong.

The US and NATO never target civilians. It's in the ROE. Prove me wrong.

I'm not so sure about that.

The Taliban they catch aren't given 'prisoner of war' status, so they pretty much are civilians.