Thread: Islam Ctr Planned Next to Ground Zero

You knew this was coming...

Ground Zero Mosque Downfall from trilliondollarkiss

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

I'm convinced sabang is playing devils advocate 99% of the time

Originally Posted by keda

It's crossed my mind, too.

We all have 'critical thinking' capabilities and processes. Playing the devils advocate can be one- thats really just a form of mental reciprocity, such as the thinking I applied to the Chicago cab adverts placed by 'Leave Islam Safely'. Now I can understand that might be offensive to some, but is it permissible under our Free speech rights? My 'litmus test' was merely to turn it on it's head- what if a cab advert was placed offering a service to leave a much more common religion in the US, being Christianity- would that still be OK? My personal conclusion was yes thats OK, so no problem. The 'problem' would be with one who goes thru' the same process, and would be outraged at an advert placed by a 'leavegodbotheringsafely'.com- he is hardly in a position then to advocate the Free speech legality of a 'leaveislamsafely' advert. Just because I might put fancy names to it like Litmus test and reciprocity, our essential thought processes are not dissimilar. I just think mine is an expedient way to establish hypocricy and self contradiction- which is why I dub it a Litmus test. Blue, or Red?



So, lets look at the latest 'en Vogue' allegation- being that Imam Rauf is in fact a radical Moslem.

Of course no such allegations existed before the last few weeks, which curiously seems to coincide with the whipped up controversy over Park 51. Could there be an agenda here, or is it just coincidence? Why yes- there is a lot of media space being devoted to a certain development in lower Manhattan, and the 'accusers' are the very same as the most vocal opponents to it. Grounds for suspicion then, says the proverbial prudent man. But still, lets call it 'case not proven' (a delightful verdict under Scottish law that curiously does not exist under English) and move on.

In the spirit of selflessness, let us forget 'ego' and 'opinion' and 'self' for the purposes of this excercise, and merely look at the intellectual champions of the opposing positions- one POV being that Rauf is an undercover rad muzzie, the other being that he is moderate.

Well in the Red corner we have quite a distinguished assembly. At the grass roots, blogger level one can't help but notice two names that have cropped up on these pages, being Pamela Geller- dubbed the 'queen of Moslem bashers', and Sultan Knish, an ultra right wing Israeli who lives in NYC. H'mm, without bothering to repeat their track record, lets just say we won't find much credibility or objectivity there, so lets look higher- at mass communicators who could be termed 'mainstream'. Rush Limbaugh, Fox News and it's stable of personalities like Beck and Hannity are certainly mass communicators- how credible are they? Questionable- and they certainly are conveniently vocal in their condemnation of the Park Place project as well, of which Rauf is the visible face. Politically of course, Pres. Obama supports the project- and their feral political opposition to him and his Democrat party is hardly a matter of parlour talk and innuendo. The proverbial 'Prudent man' finds a prima facie case that they may well be pushing a political agenda here, but still lets move on- and look at the opposing team in the other, shall we call it blue, corner.

Bloggers in the red corner provide no satisfaction, so I will ignore bloggers on the blue corner and head straight for mass media. Calling Nick Kristof-
I know Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf and his wife, Daisy Khan — the figures behind the Islamic community center — and they are the real thing. Because I have written often about Arab atrocities in Darfur and about the abuse of women in Islamic countries, some Muslim leaders are wary of me. But Imam Feisal and Ms. Khan are open-minded and have been strong advocates for women within Islam.
The article makes many good points imo- http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/op...stof.html?_r=1

On the face of it, Kristof seems a fairly credible sort. Apart from being a two times Pulitzer prize winner and personally knowing the Rauf's, he has been around a bit- He graduated Phi Beta Kappa from Harvard College and then studied law at Oxford University on a Rhodes Scholarship, graduating with first class honors. He later studied Arabic in Cairo and Chinese in Taipei. While working in France after high school, he caught the travel bug and began backpacking around Africa and Asia during his student years, writing articles to cover his expenses. Mr. Kristof has lived on four continents, reported on six, and traveled to more than 150 countries, plus all 50 states, every Chinese province and every main Japanese island. He's also one of the very few Americans to be at least a two-time visitor to every member of the Axis of Evil.

A worthy Defender then, but still- he's only human. What if the Great Islamic Conspiracy is in fact using him as a stooge, manipulating him? This can happen, even to highly intelligent people. Can we call any other champion for the Defence, the Blue corner? Why yes I believe we can- the US State Department. Does State have considerable informational and intelligent resources at it's disposal? You bet. Does State have any relationship with Rauf? You bet- they send him overseas to talk to influential audiences in Islamic countries to champion moderate Islam, and explain the free practise of Islam and other religions in the USA. Would State sponsor a radical Moslem to do this for them? Obviously not- and as pointed out above, with the resources of the US government at their disposal they would certainly know a lot about him. So the Defence rests it's case.

To quote Nick Kristof from his Op-Ed above-

For much of American history, demagogues have manipulated irrational fears toward people of minority religious beliefs, particularly Catholics and Jews. Many Americans once honestly thought that Catholics could not be true Americans because they bore supreme loyalty to the Vatican.

Today’s crusaders against the Islamic community center are promoting a similar paranoid intolerance, and one day we will be ashamed of it.

We have already established that your hero Rauf is a 'moderate'. There is no argument there, since you clarified that your 'moderate' rating is subjective and valid when compared against "less" moderates, which would include such as Mohamed Atta, Haniyeh, or Khomenie.

Using the same frail argument but with a bit more transparent contortion, you also claim Hamas is not a terrorist organisation, and since not every part and function of Hamas is devoted to terror, it is wrong to call it a terror machine. Bravo for conceding, after much hand wringing, that it may be only partly a terrorist organisation.

Otoh you, among other terminal libs, refer to Israel as an illegal nation since it occupies stolen land, and also a terror state, since you say it has committed acts of terrorism.

Now, since we already know from your defence of Hamas what constitutes for you a terrorism organisation, please confirm that in your view every feature and function of the State of Israel is devoted entirely to killing Palestinians. This could be the reason I can see for you dubbing it a terrorist state.

Sorry mate, not even you can have it both ways. If you want to slash away at your own throat with a knife then be my guest, but don't ask others to believe that this is the right thing to do simply because you're doing it.


You have again trawled for more to divert attention to the nasty Jews and Catholics, since you secretly know that Islam can only ever be defended by adamantly refusing to stay on topic. It's hardly worth pointing out anymore, since that is your trademark defence.


And per-lease, don't even throw into the pot even as seasoning that your litmus tested moderate hero Rauf may be an unwitting stooge being used by more sinister and less moderate Islamists.

That stinks of another characteristic diversion, since if you wish to even put that on the table for mild consideration, then how can you, even you, so forcefully defend GZM if its chair may be a mindless stooge?

If you had the balls to fess up that iyho Rauf is the best of a rotten to the core bunch, that would turn your otherwise flimsy arguments into ones worth listening to. Otherwise, your arguments remain dishonest and without credibility.

Originally Posted by sabang

You can call it anything you damn well want to call it Jettie, the point remains the same.

And if you want to call the term 'Park 51' propaganda or whitewashing, how do you justify your term for a development that is not at Ground Zero, and would not normally be termed a Mosque in common parlance, just as 92nd Y is not termed a Synagogue?

Your hero calls it a mosque! Are you wrong, or is Rauf wrong?

Are you capable of answering a question without launching into some diatribe that only pretends to answer?

To be fair, you once did say it is a mosque 'if you say so', as a grudging confession simply to move on to other related topics. So, is it, in your view, not a mosque because you say so, or is a mosque because I say so, or because Rauf says so, or because it's a mosque whether or not anyone says so?

I am wise to the 'tricks' of Linguistics and Demagoguery and, I fully admit, employ them myself at times.

Could've fooled me!

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

You knew this was coming...

Ground Zero Mosque Downfall from trilliondollarkiss

Brilliant, and to the point.

Definitely not for diehard libs; they'll end up blaming the conquistadors.

Originally Posted by keda

Your hero calls it a mosque! Are you wrong, or is Rauf wrong?

Probably me. I think of a Mosque as in a Church or Synagogue, or Wat or Temple. A purpose built place of worship.

Would the basketball courts be considered part of the Mosque, or in the same building as a Mosque?

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by keda

Your hero calls it a mosque! Are you wrong, or is Rauf wrong?

Probably me. I think of a Mosque as in a Church or Synagogue, or Wat or Temple. A purpose built place of worship.

Would the basketball courts be considered part of the Mosque, or in the same building as a Mosque?

Pffft. My local temples had playgrounds, schools, shops, and big weekly fairs where folks sold everything from chicken satay to hand drills and socks. Guess what? They were still called WATs.
Give it up, SB. You always drone on when you lose.

just as 92nd Y is not termed a Synagogue?

What is the 92nd Y ? What's it got to do with this discussion?

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by keda

Your hero calls it a mosque! Are you wrong, or is Rauf wrong?

Probably me. I think of a Mosque as in a Church or Synagogue, or Wat or Temple. A purpose built place of worship.

Would the basketball courts be considered part of the Mosque, or in the same building as a Mosque?

I'd say a tad more than probably, but to prise even a partial confession out of some people is a major triumph for common sense over diehard liberalism.

If it is a mosque with a community center, swimming pool and basketball, then it's still a mosque but one with a community center and sports facilities. Is every house of worship actually something else because not all of the available space is devoted to prayer? Would it fall within your argumentative interpretation of a 'mosque' only if all 13 floors are devoted exclusively to prayer?

A pedant may follow the same line by saying the project shouldn't be called a mosque because the actual prayer space in terms of 13 floors is significantly less than the rest of the construct. The only way to overcome this would be for the developers to allocate 7 floors or more for actual worship, which I doubt they would do simply to satisfy a handful of misguided linguists.

Or worse, it may be argued that due to the actual prayer space being 2 floors from 13, or some 15%, prayer will be a lesser function than sport and community.

In either case, I would recommend such persons try it on in the relative safety of TD, rather in real life outside a mosque.

Originally Posted by Dug

just as 92nd Y is not termed a Synagogue?

What is the 92nd Y ? What's it got to do with this discussion?

He's trying to make an analogy.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Originally Posted by Dug

just as 92nd Y is not termed a Synagogue?

What is the 92nd Y ? What's it got to do with this discussion?

He's trying to make an analogy.

MY point was, or rather question, what is the 92nd Y.? Anaology with what?

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Originally Posted by Dug

just as 92nd Y is not termed a Synagogue?

What is the 92nd Y ? What's it got to do with this discussion?

He's trying to make an analogy.

Is that what makes people come out in spots?

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

^ Just because rauf speaks softly, does not mean he's a moderate, SB. He is not. You refuse to accept the facts we have provided already.

There are no such things as moderates , only smart lying sob's using that part of the koran that says to use any form of subterfuge to soften up and conquer the infidel!
If you were a genuine moderate would you allow your wonderful religion to be bastardised by fanatics without strident protest?
Either these mythical moderates are too afraid to really protest or secretly support the so called fanatics .
Summary, there are no moderates or if you wish there are no effective moderates.

^Sabang posted the info, let him answer.

92nd Street Young Men's and Young Women's Hebrew Association

History and design

Founded in 1874 by German-Jewish professionals and businessmen, the 92nd Street Y has grown into an organization guided by Jewish principles but serving people of all races and faiths.
The 92Y serves over 300,000 people annually and offers over 200 programs a day. Its 33 program areas include community outreach; lectures and panel discussions; Jewish education and culture; concerts featuring classical, jazz and popular music; humanities classes; dance performances; literary readings; film screenings; parenting programs; camps; a nursery school; fitness classes, singles programs; seniors programs; a library; and a residence program that rents rooms in the Y's main building at 92nd Street and Lexington Avenue.
92nd Street Y - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Basically the Cordoba development is a lower Manhattan copy of the Y- which is well known in NYC- with the obvious difference it is developed by a Moslem not Hebrew association. And the Y itself could be seen as a particularly well frequented YMCA, which also provides Jewish actvities.

Incidentally, do you know that the WTC itself had a Muslim prayer room, in building two? Thats a new one to me too.

This semantic wrangle about what differentiates a prayer room and a Mosque is all a bit trivial. Heres a Muslim that adamantly says Park 51 is Not a Mosque- although apparently Imam Rauf has described it as a Mosque. One thing is for sure- it is not at GZ.

With an emotional and racially charged debate such as this, it is critical we keep our facts straight and that starts with the words we choose. It starts with our language. Anyone that begins their debate or discussion by calling this Islamic Community Center a mosque must immediately be discredited because they do not know what they are talking about.

.... us Muslims need to speak up.

We need to speak up and do an excellent job of differentiating ourselves from the people who flew those planes into those towers.

Although we are the majority in our religion and we know Islam is not about violence, moderate Muslims need to speak up because we have been muddled and lumped together with the terrorists for long enough. We are the ones that pay the price by getting stuck in airport security and extra screening lines, get denied visas, and become marginalized in our societies.

It could not be more clear that around the world we are viewed as the same as those terrorists who kill and plunder in the name of our faith while we remain silent.

We need to stipulate that those men who brought down the Twin Towers were not Muslims. People who park their cars packed with explosives and abandon them in Times Square in the name of Islam are not Muslim. They are terrorists and they terrorize Muslims just as much as anyone else. They are not us and we are not them. And there is no better time for moderate Muslims to reclaim their faith from the terrorists than now, during Ramadan.

And while we go around stipulating and articulating this point, we must make sure that we start calling the Park 51 Community Center what it is: Not a mosque but an Islamic Community Center.
Anushay Hossain: Park 51: The Ground Zero Mosque Is Not a Mosque

I chanced across that article because I did a quick Google to find out what the difference between a Mosque and a prayer room is- and couldn't find one. I do know that a Mosque does contain prayer rooms however.

And this is the authoress-

Anushay Hossain began her career in women's rights as an intern at the Bangladesh Rural Advancement Committee (BRAC) where she worked on microfinance and primary education programs for women and girls in her native country, Bangladesh. After graduating from the University of Virginia, Anushay joined the Nobel Peace Prize nominated Campaign For Afghan Women. Anushay moved to the United Kingdom to complete her Master's in Gender and Development, and spent a year working at UNIFEM UK (United Nations Development Fund for Women) before returning to Washington, DC where she invests the majority of her work analyzing the impact of US foreign policy on the health and rights of women and girls around the world.

In 2009, Anushay founded her blog Anushay's Point, and became a blogger for the Huffington Post. She also regularly writes for Feministing, Ms. Magazine Blog, and NPR (National Public Radio).
Anushay Hossain

Originally Posted by sabang

do you know that the WTC itself had a Muslim prayer room

Yes but so what. It wasn't on ground zero. 18th floor I believe.

Ah I see. So this one in Park Place is taboo because it will only be 12 or 13 floors above the ground.

^ 590^
I never heard about the Y before you mentioned it, but can't see the GZM being modelled on it beyond the facade, and probably more important, the association with a peaceful religion that doesn't need to be constantly watched and appeased.

The spirit of an Islamic institution or establishment will always be that of Islam, period, whether terror-linked CAIR or any of the other so called moderate supporters of intolerance, supremacy, Sharia, and terrorism.

Btw, Cordoba may sound romantic to masses of ignorant Westerners, but to evil ideology it is a comforting reminder, a trophy, just as the GZPS is intended.

Originally Posted by keda

I never heard about the Y before you mentioned it, but can't see the GZM being modelled

It's well known and well used by Manhattanites. The Cordoba foundation have specifically said it is modelled on the Y, but of course can't make you take their word for it.

^ Why make the parallel, SB? We are talking about a bldg that 70% of Americans don't want because they view it as an affront. Why do you keep making excuses? The PEOPLE do not want this because it hurts them. Isn't that enough?

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Why do you keep making excuses?

No excuses need be made- it is a local issue, it has been through all of the relevant legal and planning processes, and the local community is in favour of it. It is also being drummed up as a cause celebre' by the right, for political purposes. What are the excuses of the Park 51 Opponents for wanting to violate the US Bill of Rights and Constitution, and Laws of private property??

With all due respect Dorothy, I don't think a cosmopolitan Manhattanite really cares what they might think In Kansas, and I'm sure the same applies in reverse. If you don't like it, don't go there.

^ OMG, I can't believe how many times you moved your goal posts. Tooo funny. True libbie at heart there, SB.
9/11 draws near, which means I am gonna get real fekin angry again while I remember my friends and all the other folks who were MURDERED that day by MUSLIM terrorists.

Originally Posted by sabang

Incidentally, do you know that the WTC itself had a Muslim prayer room, in building two? Thats a new one to me too.

This semantic wrangle about what differentiates a prayer room and a Mosque is all a bit trivial. Heres a Muslim that adamantly says Park 51 is Not a Mosque- although apparently Imam Rauf has described it as a Mosque. One thing is for sure- it is not at GZ.

Easy; if it is not a mosque then it loses its protected status and all the hogwash about religious freedom and tolerance is wasted. So it wasn't a mosque before, but now it is, which makes you right and semantics is indeed a fine tool for Islam to wield against the gullible infidel.

...One thing is for sure- it is not at GZ...

About the only factual statement you've made recently. Perhaps the NYT should run a campaign to rename it the '2-blocks-from-ground-zero-mosque', or even better, "scarey's nothing at all to do with ground zero you fcukin morons prayer space"?

.... us Muslims need to speak up.

Yes, you Muslims sure need to speak up. You need to speak up each time a Muslim murders civilians in the name of Allah, and when Muslims murder their own mothers and sisters and daughters, and mutilate the genitals of their young girls, for Allah. What kind of person wants to speak out but not against the man that murders his daughter for listening to Western music in a Western land, or hacks away at her clitoris for being born a female? The civilised world strains its ears whenever a suicide bomber murders for Allah; why do you remain silent? You need to stop blaming the infidel for your own failings. He is not evil for rejecting Allah; this was what allowed him to advance. Meanwhile you cannot speak because the treachery of a 7th century desert bandit has been forced down your throat since birth; and look at the state you are in! Islam is your biggest problem, not the infidel. You need to root out and publicly trash the murderers and their defenders hiding in your midst, before the infidel can even begin trusting you again. You also need to speak out against the Muslims and useful fools that whitewash, excuse and celebrate the Muslim desecration and destruction of synagogues, churches and temples, and are at the same time outraged and mortified that anyone might object to putting up a massive icon dedicated to the Islamic ideology of murder.

The dead cannot speak for themselves; if you want to speak and be listened to, then start by speaking for them. Then shout down the ACLU, tell them it is not and can never be the right of every American to join Al Queda and kill Americans. And let's not forget the need for you to speak out against those that blame the US for the insidious character of Islam, that since its birth has compelled Muslim nations to conflict with their neighbours.

And you need to speak up against the Islamic slave industry that operates to this day, sanctioned and endorse by the Sharia, which is the same law of Allah that governs every aspect of your life from birth to dust. If you are not prepared to condemn your own barbarity, what is it you want to speak about that's worth listening to?

Will you shout down your Muslim leaders when they talk of Jihad, murder, domination, and the supremacy of Islam over the infidel? Or speak to your ignorant brethren about civilised values, not to the civilised about yours? No? - then decry your faith and leave in droves, proudly, with the offer to return should it one day become compatible with civilisation and progress.

You rush to take exception when clerics announce that your sensibilities as a good Muslim should be offended, and you will riot and murder and promulgate fatwas at a cartoon or the name of a cuddly toy; yet you consider as perfectly normal the global Islamic diet of murder and mayhem, in the name of your dysfunctional ideology. You only want to speak out against the infidel, because to do so against the real threat, your own religion, is likely to leave you dead, or worse, wishing you were dead.

If you truly want to speak out, then do so against Islam as a crime against Humanity. Your own holy texts are compelling proof.

You need to get your act together, and stop claiming that there's anything special about you so called 'moderate' Muslims, except as soporifics for those dumb infidels that are not quite asleep. You need to speak up when your representatives sponsor tolerance and compromise and separation of religion and state, but only for the cowering infidel.

And don't be afraid to shout the truth when spineless politicians promote Islam as a religion of peace, tolerance and equality; these leaders have lost respect for their own people, so if you absolutely must speak then shout them down with the truth about your own evil ideology.

We need to speak up and do an excellent job of differentiating ourselves from the people who flew those planes into those towers.

You haven't done too bad so far, but get on with those moderate hats for whatever excellence it is you plan.

There is nothing to differentiate. Are you proposing that the Muslim celebrants around the world on 911 are also not Muslims? What about the other "small minority" (another deceitful linguistic stunt?) that daily celebrate the bloodlust of Islam, are these also not Muslims? And the millions of terror supporters and logistics crews around the world, should these also be excommunicated?

On whose say so, yours? And what about Allah, does he have a say?

Will it be you that gets to select who is a good Muslim and who is not a Muslim at all? Then don't be a coward, go proselytise as a New Age Muslim to your brothers from outside the nearest mosque. Sorry mate, these are the words of a foolish exhibitionist that will end up with a very short neck.

Although we are the majority in our religion and we know Islam is not about violence, moderate Muslims need to speak up because we have been muddled and lumped together with the terrorists for long enough.

You can only 'know' Islam as a religion of peace if you willfully ignore reality, know nothing of the Koran, its doctrines, and the challenges that burden every good Muslim. Stop lying by using the Meccan Koran. The Meccan Koran is pre-Islamic, since Islam year 1 begins with the flight to Medina. Stop cheating with every second word.

We are the ones that pay the price by getting stuck in airport security and extra screening lines, get denied visas, and become marginalized in our societies.

It could not be more clear that around the world we are viewed as the same as those terrorists who kill and plunder in the name of our faith while we remain silent.

No it's not you that pay the price. Stop being so selfish. Enough cringing already about your suffering. You have just paralleled the BP CEO's (re Gulf spill) remark that he had suffered enough and wanted to get on with his life. The world was outraged at that, but when you people say it they drop everything to listen politely.

I wonder who is worse. You whispering 'moderates' pretend to take offence at savagery only so long as you do not need to be publicly identified (Islam is peaceful but I'd rather stay back here if you don't mind), or as a halfhearted gesture to muster enough of an audience to selfishly wring your hands about your own perceived suffering (we hate terrorism, even though it's the infidel's fault, because we have to queue longer at airports), or turn it around for consolation with a secondary pop at Western imperialism.

Meanwhile, the dead bodies stack up higher each day in the name of Allah, not Jehovah or Krishna or Jesus.

We need to stipulate that those men who brought down the Twin Towers were not Muslims. People who park their cars packed with explosives and abandon them in Times Square in the name of Islam are not Muslim. They are terrorists and they terrorize Muslims just as much as anyone else. They are not us and we are not them. And there is no better time for moderate Muslims to reclaim their faith from the terrorists than now, during Ramadan.

Who is we? - all three, six, or two hundred of you? Hey sabang, remember our little chat about your reference to millions as a "small minority"? How would you describe a few or even few hundred half-hearted moderates in terms of 1.5 billion? This should be a treat!

And don't try on that nonsense about Ramadan. Mohamed was first to breach the tradition of the conflict free holy months. And Mohamed is perfect and to be emulated in perpetuity by all Muslims, remember? Are you now saying that Mohamed and the Koran upon which Islam rests, must now be ignored because you would like to decide who is a Muslim and who isn't?

Get real. Don't even try to sell Islamic terrorists as non-Muslims, while your Muslim brethren take care of the other front by claiming they are also not terrorists. You are playing with words, and become more transparent each time you use the same dishonest linguistic tricks. It is called Taqiya, but you get away with it only because the masses are still snoozing and unaware of your deceit and duplicity.

And while we go around stipulating and articulating this point, we must make sure that we start calling the Park 51 Community Center what it is: Not a mosque but an Islamic Community Center.[/I]

Anushay Hossain: Park 51: The Ground Zero Mosque Is Not a Mosque

Oh yes, forgive me, didn't realise you are still suckling on the HuffPo.

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by keda

I never heard about the Y before you mentioned it, but can't see the GZM being modelled

It's well known and well used by Manhattanites. The Cordoba foundation have specifically said it is modelled on the Y, but of course can't make you take their word for it.

I have already accepted your/their word on GZM being modeled on the Y. Only, with the suspicion that this follows a proven mo of name dropping, in this case for association with a religion whose spirit does not need constant watching.