Ukraine war mega thread

[helge]

Go Ogle many transport and naval losses on both sides .

Well thanks for your work.

I could figure out that they had losses and I could search for somewhat accurate ones too.

But I don't




I was mostly referring to the TD Bureau of Bias.

You get my point

[david44]

You get my pint

skol now you get mine

[baldrick]

Putin started this war because he believed his own propaganda - there is irony there somewhere

The USSR dissolved because the KGB realised that the Soviet system was inferior and not capable of keeping up with the technological advances of western democracies.

They managed to take over the government and attempted to create a system that kept them in control and fool the people into believing Russia was a democracy.

As the western European block expanded and brought the trappings of democracy closer to the borders the average russian was starting to see the reality of life under these governments and they were liking what they saw.

[bsnub]

I could figure out that they had losses and I could search for somewhat accurate ones too.

Surely you would just refer to the Russian MOD statistics? Since a Marxist shill like yourself would never question them right?

I was mostly referring to the TD Bureau of Bias.

Care to elaborate on this or just once again just being your usual nonsensical contrarian self?

Putin started this war because he believed his own propaganda - there is irony there somewhere

Oh my! The useful idiots will not be happy with you.

[helge]

Surely you would just refer to the Russian MOD statistics?

No
As I posted:

But I don't

Why ?

Because I'm not fucking born yesterday

Since a Marxist shill like yourself would never question them right?

Yes

Because marxists have a weak spot for robber capitalists like Putin

Go ahead and embarras yourself all you can.

You can't go any lower

or just once again just being your usual nonsensical contrarian self?

Contrarian for correcting errors, that I spot, or contrarian for choosing not to march in your little platoon of goose stepping ignorants ?

Which is it, Goofy ?

[bsnub]

Why ?

Because I'm not fucking born yesterday

That is not an excuse for being a full stop idiot.

Yes

Because marxists have a weak spot for robber capitalists like Putin

Go ahead and embarras yourself all you can.

You can't go any lower

Of course, you do. Marxists are typically insipidly stupid enough to get naively led down a path that results in dictators like Putin, you stupidly naive little man.

Contrarian for correcting errors, that I spot, or contrarian for choosing not to march in your little platoon of goose stepping ignorants ?

What "errors" have you corrected? The one about the Kerch Bridge that you claimed was not subject to saltwater corrosion?



You sad little horn tooting pseudo-intellectual wannabe.

[helge]

What "errors" have you corrected? The one about the Kerch Bridge that you claimed was not subjected to saltwater corrosion?

OK

The Asov sea is very little salty due to the flow from the rivers flowing in there.

Because of me being in the generous corner, I admitted that some salt water could flow in there.

Honestly I have no idea.

(Ps. It was your pal Harry who couldn't place the bridge. I'm sure that he'll admit to that )

I do however smell a goose stepper from far away and you are one.

[helge]

Before I forget it:

Some NAFO TV here

One of yours ?




You kids !

[sabang]

^^ An abusive little brat at that. Grow up snubchild, you NAFO shitposter.

naively led down a path that results in dictators like Putin

Elected and with a 77% approval rating, why would He give a shit what some propagandised, ignorant yank thinks from his Seattle basement?
How is sleepy Joe (the 'leader of the Free world') going snubs? Oh that's right- 39% approval rating. Two weeks until the midterms.

[bsnub]

The Asov sea is very little salty due to the flow from the rivers flowing in there.

Elected and with a 77% approval rating

Yet I am the one propagandized.

why would He give a shit what some propagandised, ignorant yank thinks from his Seattle basement?

Oh, my your irony meter just exploded again. There is a global shortage of them, apparently, and you are leading the charge in exploding meters.

How is sleepy Joe (the 'leader of the Free world') going snubs? Oh that's right- 39% approval rating.

Comparing America to Russia. Yet I am the one propagandized.



The idiocy of TD's stooges never fails to disappoint. Clearly disjointed that Ukraine is handing Putin his ass on a plate.

[sabang]

Ukraine is handing Putin his ass on a plate.

Really?




TBH I don't know what is happening. But here is a recent report to mull over.

Military Situation In Ukraine On October 26, 2022 (Map Update)South Front

[bsnub]

TBH I don't know what is happening.

That has been obvious for some time, and posting up a known Russian propaganda source as a point of reference will not help your case one bit. Southfront.org? Yet I am the one who is propagandized.

[helge]

The Asov sea is very little salty due to the flow from the rivers flowing in there.

The usual answer from you, Mr Well Wetted in military history

Here is something for you to read.

It'll keep you out of trouble for a while.

OS - Water exchange between the Sea of Azov and the Black Sea through the Kerch Strait

(probably forever if you have to understand it also)

pseudo-intellectual wannabe.

Yes

I wish

I wish I was a 'pseudo-intellectual'

[sabang]

Originally Posted by sabang (Ukraine war mega thread)
TBH I don't know what is happening.

That has been obvious for some time

P'ssst- and neither do you, snubchild. Just as Caitlin said-

pro-war
pro censorship
pro propaganda
pro trolling ops
pro Ukrainian 'government'

Yep- Caitlin has got you to a T. She knows you so well.

In short, you are as far from an impartial, objective source of information as it is possible to get. Obviously you have your equivalents on the Russian side- and you have a lot in common. Maybe you guys should get a room? Cheerleaders Convention.

Your breathless assertions that Kherson was about to fall- well you may as well have saved your breath. Hasn't happened. Will it? Dunno, time will tell- but it is not imminent.

[bsnub]

In short, you are as far from an impartial, objective source of information as it is possible to get.

When did I ever claim to be impartial? Why the fuck would I want to be in regard to this war? One side is fascist and is trying to wipe the other side off the map. The other side is a democratic nation fighting for its very existence. It sums up the quintessential struggle for human freedom and liberation from tyranny.

No one is impartial in this conflict. You are either on the side of the righteous, or you are on the side of the genocidal mass murderer. To be an appeaser is to be complicit with genocide. Pure and simple.

Obviously you have your equivalents on the Russian side- and you have a lot in common.

Why would I be stupid enough to swallow either? You seem just fine with swallowing the horseshit, I am not. Today is a new world, it is not 1975 it is 2022. There are multiple ways to gather information, vet it and cross-verify it.

With regard to tracking the status of the front line of a battlefield, it has become very easy to do in today's world.

You, like many boomers, are stuck in the last century. Just a kind reminder, it ended 22 years ago.

Your breathless assertions that Kherson was about to fall- well you may as well have saved your breath. Hasn't happened. Will it? Dunno, time will tell- but it is not imminent.

Once again, you are way behind the curve here. Kherson is lost, and it has been for some time. For god’s sake, you clearly know nothing about the history of warfare regarding the Dnipro river. Just to clue you in, it is well taught in military war colleges. There is not one general worth his salt that would have kept his forces on the west side of that river for so long. It is a classic military blunder of epic proportions. It is just another of one after another committed by Russia in this conflict. This conflict will go down in history as the end of what was left of the Russian Empire.

Soon you will see that this war is already lost for Russia. They are just throwing their own people in to a meat grinder at this point.

[Loy Toy]

Whilst I am bored shitless with this war and wish that a fair resolution can be achieved you Snubby, including Sabang with Helge's input, at least keep this thread interesting.

[sabang]

Soon you will see that this war is already lost for Russia.

Lets compare this to the thoughts of Big Serge. Frankly he makes a lot more sense than you-

"So far in this war, Ukraine has achieved two big successes retaking territory: first in the spring, around Kiev, and now the late summer recapture of Kharkov Oblast. In both cases, the Russians had preemptively hollowed out the sector. We have yet to see a successful Ukrainian offensive against the Russian Army in a defensive posture. The obvious solution, therefore, is to raise the force deployment so that it is no longer necessary to hollow out sections of the front.

The initial surge of 300,000 men is being a bit muddled. Not all of the men being called up will be sent to Ukraine. Many will remain in Russia on garrison duty so that existing ready formations can be rotated to Ukraine. Therefore, it is likely that we will see more Russian units arriving in theater much sooner than expected. Additionally, many of the units originally committed to Ukraine have been off the front for refitting and resting. The scale and pace of Russia’s new force generation is likely to shock people. On the whole, the timing of Russia’s manpower surge coincides with the depletion of Ukrainian capabilities.

Ukraine spent the summer sending its 2nd tier conscripts to the front in the Donbas as it lovingly collected NATO-donated weapons and trained units in the rear. With generous NATO help, Ukraine was able to accumulate forces for two full scale offensives - one in Kherson (which failed spectacularly) and one in Kharkov (which succeeded in pushing past the Russian screening force and reaching the Oskil). Much of that carefully accumulated fighting power is now gone or degraded. Rumors circulated of a third offensive towards Melitipol, but Ukraine does not seem to have the combat power to achieve this, and strong Russian forces are in the region behind prepared defensive lines.

.... Anyone who expects the war to slow down during the winter is in for a surprise. Russia is going to launch a late autumn/winter offensive and achieve significant gains. The arc of force generation (both Russia’s increasing force accumulation and Ukraine’s degradation) coincide with the approach of cold weather."

The War Has Just Begun - Big Serge Thoughts


Anyhow, time will tell. Is Russia's war already lost, (snub) or are we going to see further Russian advances in the Winter (Serge)?

[bsnub]

Many will remain in Russia on garrison duty so that existing ready formations can be rotated to Ukraine. Therefore, it is likely that we will see more Russian units arriving in theater much sooner than expected.

Additionally, many of the units originally committed to Ukraine have been off the front for refitting and resting. The scale and pace of Russia’s new force generation is likely to shock people. On the whole, the timing of Russia’s manpower surge coincides with the depletion of Ukrainian capabilities.

Complete horseshit. Also a tweet this bozo made...

Ukrainian activity right now essentially consists of battalion level units making local exploratory attacks, and they've announced yet another mobilization wave covering all men up to 60 years old. The evidence that Ukraine is exhausted is very strong.

An outright lie. Ukraine has no current mobilization, and it is Russia that is pulling 60-year-olds off the street for conscription. Literally everything that clown says is a total fabrication.

Clearly you missed my last post when I spoke about validating your sources. Something you clearly do not do. Basically, you fling whatever shit you can against the wall and hope it will stick.

Big Serge.

[panama hat]

In short, you are as far from an impartial, objective source of information as it is possible to get.

Again sabang causes the irony-meter to explode . . . and makes himself look the utter prat he has become.

[misskit]

Putin Ally Shuts Down Russia’s Claim Ukraine Plans to Unleash Dirty Bomb

Russia is now taking its claim that Kyiv is preparing to use a dirty bomb in Ukraine as an act of provocation to some of Moscow’s closest partners in India and China, in an apparent attempt to shore up support. But the presentation has fallen flat.


Russia’s defense minister, Sergei Shoigu, made the case to India’s defense minister, Rajnath Singh, in recent hours during a phone call, according to India’s defense ministry. Shoigu expressed concerns that Ukraine may be preparing to use a dirty bomb, a combination of conventional explosives and radioactive material, claiming that it’s intended to provoke Russia.

But Singh wasn’t having any of it. Singh told Shoigu “the nuclear option should not be resorted to” in the war, according to a readout from India’s defense ministry. “The prospect of the usage of nuclear or radiological weapons goes against the basic tenets of humanity.”


Singh “reiterated India’s position on the need to pursue the path of dialogue and diplomacy for an early resolution of the conflict.”

India’s warning about the dirty bomb claims echoed western allies’ rejection of Russia’s allegations, which Shoigu began shopping around to leaders over the weekend without providing any evidence. The United States, U.K., and France issued a rare joint statement following Shoigu’s campaign, labeling his claims as “transparently false allegations.”


The dirty bomb claim has caused alarm throughout the globe, raising concerns that Russian President Vladimir Putin might be interested in using the allegation as a way to claim justification for further escalation in the war in Ukraine.


India’s apparent attempt to convince Russia that cooler heads should prevail is the latest sign that some of Putin’s support is drying up. The pushback from India, which has typically been one of Russia’s closer partners on the world stage and is a top recipient of Russian arms, may be a signal that India isn’t pleased with the way Russia is carrying out the war in Ukraine and may be trying to distance itself from the conquest. Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi rebuked Putin publicly just last month, telling him that now is not the time for war. The resistance comes as two of Putin’s closest war hawks in Russia are increasingly pushing back on his war plans, too.


Shoigu also attempted to make his case to China Wednesday, speaking over video teleconference with China’s Minister of National Defense, Wei Fenghe, according to TASS. China has not responded to the call yet, according to Reuters, but Chinese President Xi Jinping has previously been perturbed by Russia’s approach to the war in Ukraine, according to a CIA analysis, and has recently informed Putin of “concerns” about the war.


Putin has only seemed to double down on his claims, however.


“We know about the plans to use the so-called dirty bomb for provocations,” Putin said Wednesday, according to the AP.


Ukraine’s government has accused Russia of preparing dirty bombs itself, and has requested that authorities from the International Atomic Energy Agency investigate nuclear facilities to check that radioactive material hasn’t been dedicated for a dirty bomb. The IAEA has agreed to conduct such “verification activities.”


Ukrainian officials and North Atlantic Treaty Organization Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg have noted that if Russia is accusing someone else of something, they very well may be preparing to do it themselves.


“NATO allies reject this transparently false allegation,” Stoltenberg said Monday. “Russia often accuses others of what they intend to do themselves. We have seen this pattern before from Syria to Ukraine.”


Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky suggested Russia is already likely working behind the scenes on a dirty bomb.


“If Russia calls and says that Ukraine is allegedly preparing something, it means one thing: Russia has already prepared all this,” Zelensky said in a nightly address this week.


The State Department warned, too, that Russia might be plotting.


“The Russians have accused the Ukrainians, the Russians have accused other countries, of what it itself was planning. That is our concern,” spokesperson Ned Price said Monday.


President Joe Biden warned earlier this week that it would be “an incredibly serious mistake” for Russia to use a tactical nuclear weapon.


Biden clarified that it’s not clear if Russia is preparing to use a dirty bomb as part of a false flag operation.


Russia’s Defense Ministry has put its forces in a “state of readiness for action” if a situation of radioactive contamination arises, the Chief of Russia’s Radiation, Chemical and Biological Protection Troops, Lieutenant-General Igor Kirillov, claimed Monday, according to TASS.


The flurry of concern over Russia’s dirty bomb allegations and lobbying campaign comes just as Russia is conducting annual drills on launching ballistic and cruise missiles. The tests are intended to practice a “massive nuclear strike” in retaliation for a nuclear attack on Russia.


There is no evidence that Putin is preparing an attack, though, and the United States hasn’t seen anything from Russia that would cause the Biden administration to change the strategic forces posture, according to the Department of Defense.


“We have not seen at this time… any indication that Russia has made a decision or intends to employ nuclear weapons or a dirty bomb,” Pentagon Press Secretary Gen. Pat Ryder told reporters in a briefing Tuesday. “But again, it’s something that we'll continue to watch closely.”


Last month, when the IAEA visited nuclear facilities in Ukraine, “no undeclared nuclear activities or material were found,” IAEA Director General Rafael Mariano Grossi said.


The Biden Administration has warned that there will be repercussions for Russia if it deploys a dirty bomb or another nuclear weapon.


“There would be consequences for Russia, whether it uses a nuclear weapon or a dirty bomb,” Ryder said.


https://www.thedailybeast.com/putin-...-bomb?ref=home

[baldrick]

Ukraine has no current mobilization

They do

[harrybarracuda]

Still strugling with geography and history, eh Harry ?

Let's say that Nato and Russia-SU have had shared borders since.........1949.

More added in 1999 an 2004.


I understand your post, Shutree, but it lacks somewhat in precision

So in other words, you're trying to be a smug, pedantic wanker and failing as usual.

[sabang]

Ukraine has no current mobilization

Bullshit. Wiki-

From February 2022, since Russian invasion of Ukraine, first of all, reserve servicemen with combat experience who served in the Armed Forces under a contract or took part in hostilities in the Luhansk region and Donbass will be mobilized first. Then, military personnel who served on conscription until 2014 will fall under mobilization. And then those who graduated from the military departments at universities and became a reserve officer, as well as other persons who do not have age and physical restrictions, will be mobilized. General mobilization was announced for a period of three months. The presidential decree was approved by the Rada on 3 March 2022, and in accordance with it, men aged 18 to 60 will be mobilized. Defense Minister Oleksii Reznikov said that the Ukrainian authorities plan to mobilize 1,000,000 people.^[1]
According to the law "On mobilization training and mobilization", general mobilization in Ukraine is carried out simultaneously throughout its territory and concerns the economy, state authorities, local self-government, the armed forces, and other formations, enterprises, institutions, and organizations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobilization_in_Ukraine

Plus of course, males between the age of 18-60 are not even allowed to leave Ukraine.

[sabang]

Under pressure, progressives retract call for diplomacy in Ukraine

The move comes just 24 hours after 30 House Democrats called for negotiations in a letter to President Joe Biden.

OCTOBER 25, 2022
Written by
Connor Echols

Just a day after releasing a letter calling for diplomacy in Ukraine, Rep. Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash.) issued a retraction and accused staff of releasing the document “without vetting.”

In a statement, Jayapal argued that the letter’s timing was a mistake given recent statements from Republican members of Congress like House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.), who has raised the specter of reducing aid to Ukraine if the GOP takes the House in the upcoming midterm elections.
“Every war ends with diplomacy, and this one will too after Ukrainian victory,” she argued, noting that she accepts responsibility for the mishap given her leadership role in the Progressive Caucus. (All 30 of the letter’s signatories are members of that grouping.)

The retraction comes after Jayapal and her progressive allies came under harsh pressure from numerous media figures and politicians, including some from the Progressive Caucus, who argued that the letter was a gift to Republicans before the midterms. Prior to the official walkback, several other signees — including Reps. Ilhan Omar (D-Minn.), Mark Pocan (D-Wis.), and Sara Jacobs (D-Calif.) — publicly claimed that they had signed the letter months before its release and were not aware that it would come out now.

Ukrainian elites also attacked the letter, with some arguing that any talks with Russian President Vladimir Putin are simply “not a viable option.”

The attacks on the letter (and its retraction) earnedconsternation from some on Twitter, who argued that the uproar surrounding it seemed to be removed from its substance. As Marcus Stanley of the Quincy Institute wrote in Responsible Statecraft yesterday, the document “praises the Biden Administration’s policy of supporting Ukraine’s self-defense while simultaneously avoiding direct U.S. military engagement with Russia” while calling on the administration to engage in “vigorous diplomatic efforts in support of a negotiated settlement and ceasefire.”

Some of the letter’s signees have stood by it despite the harsh response, including Rep. Ro Khanna (D-Calif.), who has been outspoken about the need for a diplomatic solution to the conflict.

“We must continue to support Ukraine while mitigating the serious risk of nuclear war, managing the conflict to not escalate, and seeking a just peace,” Khanna tweeted Tuesday.

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/20...cy-in-ukraine/



Why the US must press for a ceasefire in Ukraine

As a key player in Kyiv’s defense and the leader of sanctions against Russia, Washington is obligated to help find a way out.

OCTOBER 17, 2022
Written by
Jack F. Matlock Jr.


Four recent events have put the war in Ukraine on a distinctly more dangerous course.

— The Russian annexation of four additional Ukrainian provinces blocks compromise solutions that were feasible earlier.
— The disabling attacks on both North Stream pipelines make it impossible in the near term to restore Russia as the principal energy supplier to Germany, even if the war in Ukraine should be miraculously ended.
— The Ukrainian attack on the bridge to Crimea gave Russia a pretext to escalate attacks on Ukrainian civilian targets.
— The Russian retaliatory attacks on civilian targets are certain to do more damage to Ukraine than Ukraine can do to Russia.

The leaders of both Russia and Ukraine have set impossible goals. In fact, not a single participant in the war in Ukraine has espoused a goal that can restore peace in the area. Russia’s recent incorporation of four Ukrainian provinces into the Russian Federation will not be accepted by Russia’s neighbors or by most European powers.

Given the passions aroused by the war and its atrocities, Ukraine, even with NATO support, cannot create a stable, functioning state within all the borders it inherited in 1991. If Ukraine tries to regain these territories by force and is encouraged and empowered by the U.S. and NATO to do so, Russia (and not just President Putin) will very likely demolish Ukraine in retaliation. Reality trumps illusion whenever the two conflict.

And if war should stop with the destruction of Ukraine — Kyiv and Lviv leveled as Grozny once was — that would assume that escalation does not involve the use of nuclear weapons. If the Russian leader feels convinced that the U.S. and “Western” goal is to take him out, what is to prevent him taking out others as he goes?

What Went Wrong

It did not have to happen. When the Cold War ended (by negotiation, not by victory) and the USSR fragmented into 15 separate countries (because of pressures from the inside, not from without), Europe was suddenly whole and free, the goal of U.S. and NATO policy during the Cold War. If the future stability and prosperity of Europe were to be ensured, the principal task was to build a security system covering all the countries of Europe.

But a succession of American presidents, from Clinton to Trump, chose instead to enlarge NATO, to trash arms control treaties that ended the Cold War, and to enlist former Soviet republics in a military alliance that excluded Russia. Benjamin Abelow summarized the portentous events in his insightful How the West Brought War to Ukraine.

The war might have been prevented — probably would have been prevented — if Ukraine had been willing to abide by the Minsk agreement, recognize the Donbas as an autonomous entity within Ukraine, avoid NATO military advisors, and pledge not to enter NATO. Nevertheless, what was possible even as late as January 2022 may not be possible now. The Russian annexation of additional territory raises the stakes. But the longer the war continues the harder it is going to be to avoid the utter destruction of Ukraine.

America’s Security

We Americans can only admire the valiant resistance Ukrainians have mounted to the Russian invasion and should be proud that we have been able to support their defense. Everything possible should be done to make sure that Ukraine survives as an independent state. But that does not mean that Ukraine has to recover all the territory it inherited in 1991. In fact, given all the passions aroused by the war and what preceded it (the violent change of government in 2014 that many Russians considered a coup d’etat organized by the United States), the population in some areas is likely to resist a return to Kyiv’s control.

Some will argue that the United States has a moral obligation to support whatever the Ukrainian leaders demand since “they know best.” No, they do not know best what is in the security interests of the American people, and that should be the primary concern of any American government. They also, under the stress of war, may not be the best judges of their own ultimate security interests.

I was ambassador to the Soviet Union in 1990 when the Lithuanians declared their independence from the Soviet Union. The United States had never recognized the annexation of Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia by the Soviet Union, so the Lithuanians requested immediate U.S. recognition of their independence. I had total sympathy with the Lithuanian aspirations but had to explain that it would be a mistake to do so until Lithuania was in fact free. Why? Because, in 1990, U.S. recognition would almost certainly have precipitated a Soviet crack-down which the U.S. could not counter without risking nuclear war.

The Lithuanians, along with their Baltic neighbors, kept their demands for independence peaceful. The U.S. privately kept pressure on the Soviet Government to refrain from using force, and the USSR State Council recognized the independence of Lithuania and its two neighboring countries in September 1991, freeing them legally before the rest of the Soviet Union broke up.

The issue with Ukraine and Russia of course is not recognition of independence but whether the U.S. should support the Ukrainian goal to restore its control over all the territory it received when the Soviet Union broke up. If pursuit of that goal precipitates the progressive destruction of Ukraine, it is obviously not in Ukraine’s interest.

Effect on the World

The fighting in Ukraine continues and intensifies while the world is still struggling with the covid-19 pandemic and remains vulnerable to mutations and new pathogens, while global warming is producing ever more destructive effects. Meanwhile, migrations caused by famine, flood, war, and misgovernment are overwhelming the capacity of even the richest countries to absorb the afflicted. And to all of that one must add the threat of Armageddon, a nuclear holocaust — something no rational leader would risk. But rationality cannot be assumed in either domestic or international politics today.

Europe’s position will be severely tested during the upcoming winter as the result of drastically curtailed trade with Russia, particularly when it comes to energy. Increasingly, European publics are likely to blame the United States for policies that fuel inflation and bring on economic recession, especially as their currencies weaken against the dollar. The U.S. sanctions on Russia will be seen by many as self-serving attempts to dominate Western Europe.

A new iron curtain is now being imposed on Russia — this time by Western policy — even as the United States announces more measures to confront and “contain” an assertive China. This will result, inevitably, in more cooperation between Russia and China. Also, the increasing use of economic sanctions to achieve political purposes will encounter push-back with a greater volume of international trade conducted in national currencies other than the U.S. dollar.

As Europe is weakened and more countries suffer from U.S. sanctions, coalitions to resist U.S. dominance will flourish. Geopolitical competition will take precedence over action to deal with common problems, even as international conflict intensifies them.

What all the parties to the conflict in Ukraine seem to have forgotten is that the future of mankind will not be determined by where international borders are drawn — these have never been static in history and doubtless will continue to change from time to time. The future of mankind will be determined by whether nations learn to settle their differences peacefully.

Is There a Way to Stop the War?

There may not be, given the passions aroused by the conflict. Both Ukraine and Russia have lost enough blood that their populations are likely to oppose any effort to give the other side any portion of what it wants. Their presidents hate each other and see any concession as a personal defeat. But the more the war continues, the more Ukrainian lives will be lost, property destroyed, and the probability of a wider conflict increased.

The only practical way to stop the actual fighting would be to agree on a ceasefire. This is difficult for the Ukrainians since they are liberating some of the occupied territories, but the reality is that if the war continues Russia is capable of damaging Ukraine more than Ukraine can damage Russia without risking a wider war.

As principal arms supplier to Ukraine, the U.S. should encourage the Ukrainians to agree to a ceasefire. As the sponsor of the most punitive sanctions on Russia, the U.S. should use its leverage to induce Russia to agree to genuine negotiations during a ceasefire.

Negotiations must be conducted in private to be successful, which would require a revival of U.S.-Russia diplomacy. Over the past few years, tit-for-tat expulsions have reduced both countries to skeleton diplomatic staffs. Nevertheless, if there is a will to talk and negotiate, ways can be found. So far, it is the will that seems to be lacking.

At present, none of the relevant parties to the conflict in Ukraine seem to be willing to stop fighting and enter into genuine negotiations to bring peace in Ukraine. Until this changes, the fighting stops, and serious negotiations get underway, the world is headed for an outcome where we all are losers.


https://responsiblestatecraft.org/20...ind-a-way-out/


(Jack Matlock was US Ambassador to the Soviet Union, prior to the dissolution of the USSR)

[harrybarracuda]

You sad little horn tooting pseudo-intellectual wannabe.

Pretty accurate description of any of the wanketeers really.