Ukraine war mega thread

[helge]

unpalatable though it is for some.

Both parties have climbed their respective tree and won't come down anytime soon.

Could be that even massive defeats to one side, isn't gonna lead them to the table.


Maybe in the end, this will be down to the people of Russia and Ukraine, to force a solution on that table

[sabang]

Austrian Foreign Minister Alexander Schallenberg believes the bloc must think of future relations with Moscow

European countries should retain a sense of proportion when punishing Russia for its actions in Ukraine, Austrian Foreign Minister Alexander Schallenberg has argued. The diplomat warned against such punitive measures as a blanket visa ban for all Russian citizens.

Speaking at Sciences Po research university in Paris on Monday, Schallenberg said: “We shouldn’t shoot over the target by, for example, imposing a visa ban for 144 million Russians.”

The minister also said Russia would remain part of European history and culture despite current tensions between the EU and its eastern neighbor.

The Austrian diplomat made it clear, however, that Vienna unconditionally supports Ukraine in its conflict with Russia.

But, according to the minister, the West “must also think of the day afterward, the week afterward and the months that follow.”

Schallenberg noted that Europe’s security architecture would still include Russia, one way or another, in the future, taking into consideration its role as a permanent member of the UN Security Council and status as a nuclear power.

He went on to stress the importance of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), and criticized Poland, which chaired the entity’s latest meeting in early December, for barring Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov from the event.

“The OSCE is one of the few remaining platforms where Russian diplomats still sit and have to listen to our arguments, our sharp criticism of the Russian war of aggression,” Austria’s top diplomat explained.

Apart from retaining what he described as a sense of proportion, the West should also strive to stay united in 2023, the official argued.

He said “our conduct today will define the status of the free world in the coming years.”

Russia sent troops into Ukraine on February 24, citing Kiev’s failure to implement the Minsk agreements, designed to give the regions of Donetsk and Lugansk special status within the Ukrainian state. The protocols, brokered by Germany and France, were first signed in 2014. Former Ukrainian president Pyotr Poroshenko has since admitted that Kiev’s main goal was to use the ceasefire to buy time and “create powerful armed forces.”

Shortly before the hostilities broke out, the Kremlin recognized the Donbass republics as independent states and demanded that Ukraine officially declare itself a neutral country that will never join any Western military bloc. Last September, Donetsk and Lugansk, as well as Kherson and Zaporozhye regions, were incorporated into Russia following referendums.

EU country’s top diplomat warns against overkill in Russia sanctions — RT World News

[bsnub]

he more Russia will push out westwards from current borders, towards the Dniepr River and Odessa in the south.

Russia has been on its back foot for months, you utter imbecile.

Meaning a long bloody war, and Ukraine quite likely ending up a landlocked rump state.

Pure fantasy land fairy tail bullshit from the useful idiots.

Or worse still, direct conflict between Russia and Nato.

Russia would never want to face that utter humiliation on the battlefield.

[Hugh Cow]

Austria has done little to help Ukraine in comparison to its neighbours. It is a neutral country whose only "protection" is surrounding NATO countries its opinion is largely irrelevant.
Whatever happens Russia must pay a heavy price. The world must see that taking another countries territory by force is no longer tolerated and yes at the moment it is the west. No it cannot fix every conflict in the world but it must at least do so in its own region, otherwise what does that tell the rest of the world if we cannot aid people who are being invaded in our own backyard.

[sabang]

I see recruit snubski is all worked up today. You can tell by the number of gratuitous laughies.

[Takeovers]

Maybe in the end, this will be down to the people of Russia and Ukraine, to force a solution on that table

If Zelensky would try to reach a deal that gives Russia Crimea and Donbas he would be faced by a new Maidan revolution.

[david44]

Austria has done little to help Ukraine in comparison to its neighbours. It is a neutral country whose only "protection" is surrounding NATO countries its opinion is largely irrelevant.

Possibly in this conflict , though should it lean with Serbia and Hungary away from US position creates a block.

The Austrians virtually invented the present, a few names some more familiar than other

Vienna is also the HQ IAEA of possibly the most important world agency should nuclear accident/war occur and present crisiat ZNPP, threats to Rivno and safeguarding from Chernobyl to Fukushima moot. It is one of the best managed least corrupt and competent UN agencies

Alois Schicklgruber the wounded corporal who ruled much of Europe for a short span ws an Austrian not a German

Eichmann a relative of one of my student gf's who is still an infamous mass torturer

Sigund Freud a broth of a boy and a slip for Joyce

Arnold Schwarzenegger who muscled into the Kennedys and a very nice man in person

Erwin Schrödinger who cannot be sure where your cat is

Ludwig Wittgenstein who can explain why and all that can be said in his Tractatus Logico Philsophicus

Ernst Mach who limited speeds

Modern Economics informed by the founders of teh Vienna School of Carl Menger, Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk, Friedrich von Wieser and more recently by Nobel prize winner Hayek, had a disproportionate influence on the Big bang and modern debt driven trends.

With its neutrality Vienna hosts OPEC, Simon Wiesenthal centre and hordes of spies, strudels and Schnitzls

It seems very clean well organised place compared to almost third world slums like Paris and London , visiting all three last summer.

"Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweige" Wittgenstein

P.S Dietrich Mateschitz had the brains to sell Thai sugary caffeine and water for $5 a can as Red Bull

[david44]

PS Eichmann while born in Germany grew up in Austria where virulent anti-semitism was endemic, I met some of the family in 1970s unaware of their history at that point. Leonding also home to Hitler's father was full of nazi sympathizers in 1960s and 70s the old ladies still wore white hosen and hated jews.
My friend was from one of the few protestant families, all jews had been killed so it was a 99% Catholic village and probably still is. I was the only foreigner there.
He joined SD after Shickelgruber took over in Germany.
One of the few men in history to get a complementary flight off El Al from B Aires

[OhOh]

The world must see that taking another countries territory by force is no longer tolerated

Telling that to the 16% may sink in eventually.

Ignoring UNSC resolutions is their historic behaviour.

"You're with us, you're against us". "Fuck the EU"

Or:

a new Maidan revolution

[helge]

Eichmann a relative of one of my student gf's who is still an infamous mass torturer

Never knew that he tortured anyone.

His deportation trains was horrible if that's what you mean

If Zelensky would try to reach a deal that gives Russia Crimea and Donbas he would be faced by a new Maidan revolution.

Sounds about right.

He would get killed by the nationalists, who most probably have increased in numbers.


I also doubt that anyone would "survive" a peace demonstration in Kiev

[OhOh]

he would be faced by a new Maidan revolution.

Over promising politicians do tend to be quickly disposed of or, if female, resign "to spend more time with their children".

[OhOh]

^
Should be:

"to spend more time with her family.

[helge]

Old stuff but still going


Fact Check: Did Ukraine Put Pink Floyd's Roger Waters on 'Kill List'?

BY JAMES BICKERTON ON 10/5/22 AT 9:13 AM EDT




The British musician Roger Waters, formerly of rock group Pink Floyd, has taken controversial positions on a number of foreign policy issues recently, including the ongoing Russian invasion of Ukraine.

In September, he wrote an open letter to Ukrainian First Lady Olena Zelenska blaming "extreme nationalists" in Ukraine for the ongoing war, claiming Kyiv had "crossed any number of red lines that had been set out quite clearly" by Moscow.

The singer-songwriter called for an end to western arms supplies to Ukraine, which he described as fuel "thrown into the fire from Washington DC."

Roger Waters, formerly of Pink Floyd, performs on stage at the Sydney leg of his 'Dark Side Of The Moon' Tour at Acer Arena on January 25, 2007 in Sydney, Australia.

The Claim

In a Rolling Stone magazine interview published in October, Roger Waters claimed to be "on a kill list that is supported by the Ukrainian government."
NEWSWEEK SUBSCRIPTION OFFERS >
Waters said: "I'm on the f**king list, and they've killed people recently. When they kill you, they write 'liquidated' across your picture. Well, I'm one of those f**king pictures."

The remarks sparked a backlash, with Ukraine and allies accusing Waters of promoting the Kremlin's talking points and being an "apologist" for authoritarians.


Two of the ex-Floyd member's upcoming gigs in the Polish city of Krakow were canceled in protest, with Łukasz Wantuch, a Krakow city councilman, inviting Waters to "come with us to Ukraine and see for yourself how wrong you are."
o be "on a kill list that is supported by the Ukrainian government."

Waters said: "I'm on the f**king list, and they've killed people recently. When they kill you, they write 'liquidated' across your picture. Well, I'm one of those f**king pictures."

The Facts

While he doesn't clarify the finer details, the article's author suggests that Waters appears to be referring to the Mirotvorets list, compiled by Ukrainians, which launched online in December 2014 to detail those they believe are "enemies of Ukraine" who "have signs of crimes against the national security of Ukraine, peace, human security, and the international law."

"Waters' claim isn't true, but it isn't completely false, either," the article says.


"There is a list maintained by a far-right Ukrainian organization that contains hundreds of thousands of enemies of Ukraine, from alleged members of the Wagner private military company to journalists accused of cooperating with puppet governments in the Donbas region.

"The site, which has been roundly internationally condemned — but not taken down by the Ukrainian government itself — claims not to be a kill list but rather "information for law enforcement authorities and special services."

The authors do not provide evidence in support of the "far-right" epithet or clarify what "roundly internationally condemned" amounts to. Newsweek has reached out to the Rolling Stone for comment.

As various media reports on Mirotvorets note, it is an NGO that keeps an open-sourced database of persons that it deems to have promoted anti-Ukrainian narratives or acted to destabilize Ukraine's national security. Since the start of the war, it also keeps count of the Russian soldiers and agents killed on its territory.

It was founded by a Ukrainian politician and activist Heorhiy/Georgiy Tuka. It has also been closely linked to politician Anton Gerashchenko, whom The Times of London in a recent interview referred to as a co-founder of the project.

While the identities of the project's staff are kept secret, Gerashchenko insisted during an interview with the British publication that Mirotvorets is independent of the Ukrainian government and doesn't receive any state funding.

Notably, official Kyiv keeps its own separate list of people it labels "Russian propagandists," to which a number of U.S. conservatives including Tulsi Gabbard and Rand Paul were recently added.

On August 27, 2018, Waters was added to the unofficial Mirotvorets blacklist following comments he made to the Russian newspaper Izvestia, in which he appeared to justify Russia's 2014 annexation of Crimea, internationally recognized as part of Ukraine.

Waters' listing on Mirotvorets accuses the musician of spreading "anti-Ukrainian propaganda" and backing "attempts to legalize the annexation of Crimea by Russia."

The Mirotvorets list has no official standing in Ukraine, though Al Jazeera, citing the rights group Uspishna Varta, reported that it had been used as evidence in more than 100 court cases against those suspected of involvement with pro-Russian paramilitaries.

In April 2015 two pro-Russian Ukrainians, politician Oleg Kalashnikov and publicist Oles Buzina, were shot dead in Kyiv.

Al Jazeera reported that the attacks took place just days after Mirotvorets published personal details, including addresses, about the two men, but no direct link has been found or proven in court.

Both men had been widely known for their pro-Russian and anti-government views that long predated their addition to the list.

Furthermore, there are reportedly as many as 200,000 people on the list now, including European political leaders, such as Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban.



That also includes some of the Russian-installed officials in occupied territories accused by Kyiv of being "collaborators," and some of whom have been targets of reported attacks and assassinations since the Russian occupation.

But there is no evidence to suggest they were targeted because they were named on the list; it was, far more likely, for their alleged roles in enabling the Russian invasion and occupation of Ukraine's territories.

Responding to Al-Jazeera's report, Gerashchenko said: "We are not a punitive body, we are an inquiry office."

Waters' listing on the site, contrary to the musicians claims, is not accompanied by any calls for violence or retribution, less so murder, but instead merely calls for authorities to investigate said persons.

"The Peacemaker Center asks law enforcement agencies to consider this publication on the website as a statement pointing out this citizen's deliberate acts against the national security of Ukraine, peace, the security of mankind and international law and order, as well as other offenses," the disclaimer says.

A separate disclaimer on the About page of the website also makes no calls for violence, and specifies that "The Peacemaker Center carries out its activities in strict accordance with the current legislation of Ukraine and international legal acts ratified by our state."


Roger Waters and Mirotvorets have been contacted for comment.

The Ruling

Misleading.



Waters' characterization of the Mirotvorets website (if that is indeed the list he is referring to) as a "kill list" is inaccurate.

Mirotvorets does not advocate violence against those on its database, and there is no conclusive evidence that it's ever been used as a "kill list," as Waters claims.

Also, while the list has been used by Ukrainian authorities and agencies to keep track of those whom they suspect of undermining Ukraine's sovereignty or promoting the Kremlin's agenda, it has no known or official links to the Ukrainian government.

FACT CHECK BY NEWSWEEK


[/COLOR]

[helge]

The Grayzone's Max Blumenthal speaks to Faina Savenkova, a 13-year-old resident of the Lugansk Republic who was placed on the Myrotvorets (Peacemaker) "kill list" of the Ukrainian government after she issued a call to the United Nations for an end to the war she has lived through since 2014. Meera Terada also joins to provide background on Myrotvorets in the killing of many journalists and doxxing of hundreds of children, and to identify the Ukrainian officials and public figures behind the disturbing website.

[helge]

And allegedly the russians had their "Kill list" before the war.

Hardly surprising either


IMAGE SOURCE,AFP
Image caption,The Kremlin has denied the existence of any "kill list"

By Gordon Corera
Security correspondent, BBC News





The United States says it has "credible information" that Russian forces are creating lists of Ukrainians to be killed or sent to camps in the event of occupation.


It is the latest claim about Russia's alleged plans to be publicised by Western powers.


The Kremlin has denied the existence of any "kill list".


And some Western officials acknowledge the alleged plans are speculative, and may not be put into action.


But Russia's FSB Security Service is believed to be involved in preparing the political ground for any occupation if orders are given.


The little-known Fifth Service of the FSB is likely to play a key role in the event of a significant escalation in Ukraine.



The Fifth Service and its Department of Operational Information runs covert operations in many states neighbouring Russia and has taken the lead in Ukraine.


It has established networks of agents within Ukraine and has been preparing to activate them in the event of conflict, Western intelligence sources say. The aim will be to limit resistance and ensure control.


If there is an attempt to remove the government in Kyiv, that could involve senior figures working in key institutions and industries being approached and instructed to work with Russia - or else face the consequences, it is claimed.


Russia has denied plans to invade, and some Western analysts remain sceptical that Russia has the forces or the intent to mount a full-scale occupation with all the risks that this would entail.


The claim about a list of targets to be arrested or even killed came in a letter from the US Ambassador to UN organisations in Geneva, to the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights.


The US said "likely" targets are those who oppose Russian actions, including Russian and Belarusian dissidents in exile in Ukraine, journalists and anti-corruption activists, as well as religious and ethnic minorities and LGBTQ+ persons. The letter says the US also has information that Russia plans to use lethal measures to disperse protests if there is an occupation.



The letter is the latest salvo in Washington's attempts to expose what it says are Moscow's plans for Ukraine. The US has not presented further details or cited the source of its information. And it is not clear how far any such plans might have progressed, or what scenarios would lead to them being put into action. The purpose of exposing such information is partly to act as a deterrent to Russian behaviour - and some officials acknowledge that they cannot be totally confident what will unfold.


The Kremlin responded by saying talk of a "kill list" was "absolute fiction".


"There is no such list. It's a fake," spokesperson Dmitry Peskov said.


IMAGE SOURCE,AFP VIA GETTY IMAGES
Image caption,The FSB grew in power after its head in the late 1990s, Vladimir Putin, became Russia's leader

The US letter does not specify which part of the Russian intelligence or military services would be involved in such activity, and the FSB's Fifth Service is likely to be preparing political plans for any attempted take-over rather than directly enforcing control through arrests.


"The Fifth Service is the FSB department that would be tasked to provide plans and scenarios for Ukraine's post regime change political future," explains Andrei Soldatov, an expert on the Russian intelligence services.


Even though it is primarily a domestic service, the FSB has the lead role amongst Moscow's intelligence agencies in Ukraine.



Back in 1992 Russia's Foreign Intelligence Service, the SVR, signed a deal with Ukraine and neighbouring states not to spy on them. That left the way open for the FSB which grew in power, particularly after its head in the late 1990s, Vladimir Putin, became Russia's leader.


The SVR and military intelligence, the GRU, both still operate in Ukraine but the FSB leads on intelligence and influence operations.


The current head of Service Five, Sergei Beseda, personally travelled to Ukraine in 2014 during the events surrounding the Maidan uprising that led to the removal of a pro-Russian government.






Media caption,Watch: Amid fears of a Russian invasion, families in Ukraine are worried they will have to flee for a second time


Since 2014, a low-level war has been going on between Ukraine and Russian spy services. The Ukrainian Security Service has accused the FSB of carrying out sabotage and assassinations. In 2017, a senior Ukrainian intelligence official was killed in a car bomb. The FSB were also accused of running a high-level mole within the Ukrainian security services who was also allegedly involved a plan for an assassination.


A recent report for the RUSI think-tank by Jack Watling and Neil Reynolds said that in July 2021 the Ukraine team of the Fifth Service was expanded to form the Ninth Directorate comprising around 200 officers.


The FSB's current network could include further agents within the Ukrainian security and defence establishment ready to switch sides in the event of the crisis escalating whilst other agents could take control of institutions in local districts around the country.


But how far such plans for political change and even arrests are put into action will depend on final decisions on the overall strategy from Russia's leaders.

[sabang]

You know that happy feeling when things are going your way? Everything is turning up roses? You got a nice buzz going? Well, if you feel that way then you certainly are not a member of Ukraine’s ruling elite. Some genuine chaos unfolding in Kiev in the wake of Russia’s victory in Soledar.

Let us commence with the news that someone (or a group of someones) assassinated Ukraine’s top three intelligence officials — the Minister of Internal Affairs of Ukraine Denis Monastyrsky, his first deputy Yevgeny Enin and the State Secretary of the Ministry of Internal Affairs Yuriy Lubkovich. Wait a minute (some will say) we do not know if this was a mechanical failure or pilot error. True, no final conclusions, yet. But an eyewitness interviewed by one of the Kiev media claimed:

that the helicopter with the leadership of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine on board was spinning and burning in the air before the collision.
Telegram

If that witness is giving an accurate account then it is highly unlikely that the mid-air fireball was caused by pilot error or a mechanical malfunction. This sure sounds like a surface-to-air missile, like a U.S. supplied Stinger that popped up on the black market. Here is one of the rumors floating around Ukraine. It emerged shortly after the chopper crashed into a kindergarten courtesy of someone with the nom de plume, Hacker DPR Joker:

I will tell you all, my loyal followers, what happened today in Brovary. The Minister of Internal Affairs of Ukraine had long been aware that the leadership of the Ministry of Defense was trading Western arms, which came to Ukraine in the form of aid, for the benefit of third countries, and that this process was overseen directly by the head of the GUR, Budanov. By the way, this information has already surfaced somewhere.
The leadership of the Interior Ministry wanted their share and began collecting data through their structural units, which are associated with intelligence and surveillance. As a result, they managed to obtain evidence and began blackmailing. The military bosses promised a share to the police leadership, and the first tranche was paid. But it was pointless and unprofitable to pay any further.
In addition, the insolence of the minister of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, who had his head in the wrong place, was putting the military leadership under strain. And now the day had come when the kids from the GUR were able to demonstrate their skills. But that is not all. The sanction for this was given personally by Yermak, who is also in on the secret from the supreme narcissistic clown, Zelensky.

The key point for Hacker DPR Joker is that the head of Internal Affairs, Monastyrsky, was independent of the President, the military and the intelligence service (i.e., SBU). Because Monastyrsky is in charge of Ukraine’s national police, he and his subordinates were in a position to collect dirt on the illegal activities of Zelensky or the military and could use that as “leverage” (aka blackmail) to extract money or concessions.

That is at least one possibility that should be considered. What strikes me is that you had the equivalent of the FBI Director, the FBI Deputy Director and the Attorney General all on board the same aircraft. Why? What was their destination and why were all three on the same helo? Normal security procedures would keep the three men apart to avoid this very scenario. I cannot rule out the possibility that a Russian Spetznaz team carried out a hit. Regardless of who did it, this has created enormous turmoil within Zelensky’s government.
At a minimum, this is going to sharpen suspicions among the police, the military and the intelligence service. Warm, fuzzy feelings do not abound.

Preceding all of this was the forcible removal of Oleksii Arestovych, a former Ukrainian intelligence officer who, until this past weekend, was directing strategic communications for Zelensky. Mr. Arestovych made the mistake of telling the truth about a missile strike on an apartment building in Dnepropetrovsk. Accoridng to Arestovych, it is an errant Ukrainian missile. He said it was not Russian. Whoops!! That is verbotten. Not only was he fired (he reportedly tried to resign), but his name popped up today on the Ukrainian hit list reserved for enemies of Ukraine. That’s right. After a year of faithfully telling lies for Zelensky, he says something truthful and next thing you know he has a target for execution on his back.

Not a lot of good news in Ukraine other than the United States and Europe are promising to send more weapons to a beleaguered Ukrainian army. I actually think the Russians are more delighted by this than Ukraine. Reminds me of a scene from Game of Thrones when Tyrion Lannister thanks mutineers for an unexpected gift:

Are the Ukrainian Political Elite Starting to Eat Each Other? - A Son of the New American Revolution

Interesting scuttlebutt.

[pickel]

Hacker DPR Joker

Along with Intel Slava Z, you've got some fine sources there.

[helge]

^Interesting speculation and you never know

One is about the pilot flying outside the permitted route. The second concerns that there was a technical fault with the helicopter. The third and last is about the helicopter being shot down.

the Ukrainian hit list

It's the Kill List, man !

[sabang]

You keep coming out with this "Intel Slava Z" as if it means something. Being honest, I have no idea who these people are, or are purported to be. Who are they? Some kind of pro-russki version of NAFO, or what?

[pickel]

You keep coming out with this "Intel Slava Z" as if it means something. Being honest, I have no idea who these people are, or are purported to be. Who are they? Some kind of pro-russki version of NAFO, or what?

You literally just posted an article which based it's entire premise on something a guy named Hacker DPR Joker posted on telegram. You did the same before with Intel Slava Z, which was proven to be a fabricated lie. Been explained to you many times. I even pm'd you the posts to clear your confusion. You said you would look at them and get back to me after your lunch. Still waiting.

If you post something ridiculous, don't be surprised when you're ridiculed.

[sabang]

I still have no clue who Intel slava Z is, and have no idea why you keep mentioning them This is what interested me, an eyewitness account-

But an eyewitness interviewed by one of the Kiev media claimed:

that the helicopter with the leadership of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine on board was spinning and burning in the air before the collision.
Telegram

Considering this Kiev government even assassinated a gov't negotiator, in full public view, on the steps of gov't house- what can you rule out?

[sabang]

^^ Hacker DPR is not even the source of that quote, so where do you get the ridiculous notion that the entire premise is based on him? That is nonsense- any literate reader can see that.

[pickel]

^^ Hacker DPR is not even the source of that quote, so where do you get the ridiculous notion that the entire premise is based on him? That is nonsense- any literate reader can see that.

The title of the article:

Are the ukrainian political elite starting to eat each other?

His quote:

Here is one of the rumors floating around Ukraine. It emerged shortly after the chopper crashed into a kindergarten courtesy of someone with the nom de plume, Hacker DPR Joker:

I will tell you all, my loyal followers, what happened today in Brovary. The Minister of Internal Affairs of Ukraine had long been aware that the leadership of the Ministry of Defense was trading Western arms, which came to Ukraine in the form of aid, for the benefit of third countries, and that this process was overseen directly by the head of the GUR, Budanov. By the way, this information has already surfaced somewhere.
The leadership of the Interior Ministry wanted their share and began collecting data through their structural units, which are associated with intelligence and surveillance. As a result, they managed to obtain evidence and began blackmailing. The military bosses promised a share to the police leadership, and the first tranche was paid. But it was pointless and unprofitable to pay any further.
In addition, the insolence of the minister of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, who had his head in the wrong place, was putting the military leadership under strain. And now the day had come when the kids from the GUR were able to demonstrate their skills. But that is not all. The sanction for this was given personally by Yermak, who is also in on the secret from the supreme narcissistic clown, Zelensky.

Quit being such a disingenuous cvnt. And take your blinders off and look at the pm I sent you before.

[sabang]

Stop being such a whining little bitch- it isn't my fault that you got picked on in school. As I said, this is what interested me-

True, no final conclusions, yet. But an eyewitness interviewed by one of the Kiev media claimed:

that the helicopter with the leadership of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine on board was spinning and burning in the air before the collision.
Telegram


If that witness is giving an accurate account then it is highly unlikely that the mid-air fireball was caused by pilot error or a mechanical malfunction. This sure sounds like a surface-to-air missile, like a U.S. supplied Stinger that popped up on the black market.

The quote you are getting your soiled panties in a twist over, is simply presaged by-

Here is one of the rumors floating around Ukraine. It emerged shortly after the chopper crashed into a kindergarten courtesy of someone with the nom de plume, Hacker DPR Joker:

So what? Still no idea who this Intel Slava Z is either, that you soil your panties over.

[pickel]

So what? Still no idea who this Intel Slava Z is either, that you soil your panties over.

Do you have a problem with reading the pm i sent you before? It's got links in it, even pictures, to make it a little easier to understand for simple folk like yourself.