Ukraine war mega thread

[Norton]

Instead, the U.S. foreign policy establishment must work harder to enable European allies to pick up more, even if not the lion’s share, of the burden on their side of the Eurasian continent.

No question this must happen. Should have happened decades ago after European nation economies recovered. Only the military industrial complex benefits from the treasure spent on NATO. Treasure that should be used to benefit average US folks.

NATO's used by date has long past. Europe needs to form and fund an equivalent alliance to replace NATO which excludes the US.

[sabang]

I believe that too, but as long as the US continues to be their benevolent daddy warbucks, too easy just to cower under your protective wing. Let's face it, a lot of powerful vested interests benefit from this too (one of which is not the American people).

[bsnub]

Ukrainian troops struck two key bridges of strategic importance to Russia in Ukraine's southern region on Wednesday, Ukraine's Independence Day, officials said.

Both the Kakhovka Bridge and the Antonovsky Bridge near occupied Kherson were struck by Ukraine's forces. It comes as Ukraine is waging a counter-offensive toward the city, which was seized by Russia in the early stages of the war.

The strikes came as Ukraine marked 31 years of independence from the Soviet Union.

The Kherson region has been almost entirely under the control of Russian forces since the beginning of March when it became the first major city to be seized by Russian troops since the war began.

"Our aircraft launched four strikes on areas where the enemy's manpower, weapons, and equipment were amassed in Beryslav district, in particular, the air defense systems in Nova Kakhovka," Ukraine's Operational Command South said on Facebook.

The command said the bridge was struck by the Ukrainian missile and artillery units as part of fire missions.

"A command and observation point of the battalion tactical group of the 33rd motorized rifle regiment and the 7th military base was hit," the command added.

Kirill Stremousov, deputy head of the Russian-backed Kherson Military-Civilian Administration, was quoted by state-owned media as saying that Ukraine's armed forces had struck the Antonovsky Bridge near Kherson on Wednesday using U.S.-supplied using HIMARS (High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems).

Stremousov, a senior pro-Moscow official, told the TASS news agency that Russia's air defense worked, but that there were some hits.

"There was an attempt to shell, a couple of holes were added, but the bridge was intact, the air defense worked. HIMARS again," Stremousov said, adding that the structure of the bridge was not damaged.

Newsweek was not able to independently verify the news of the latest strikes.

Ukraine has targeted both bridges multiple times using high-precision munitions.

The Antonovsky Bridge is significant because it's the only road bridge connecting Kherson, located on the western side of the Dnipro river, with a part of the Kherson region on the other side. It is the main crossing over the Dnipro, and it's a key route for Russia to supply its forces occupying territory in Ukraine's south.

The Kakhovka bridge, which runs over the Nova Kakhovka dam, is also vital to Russian President Vladimir Putin's forces because it was being used to transport military equipment in the region.

When detailing an earlier strike on the bridge in an August 12 Facebook post, Ukraine's Operational Command South said it was the last bridge connecting the right and left banks.

The British Ministry of Defense assessed on Tuesday that Russia is preparing to build a floating bridge to continue transporting supplies across the southern frontline.

Newsweek has reached out to Russia's foreign ministry for comment.

https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-key...ay-war-1736856

[bsnub]

NATO's used by date has long past. Europe needs to form and fund an equivalent alliance to replace NATO which excludes the US.

Strongly disagree with this. The US is strongly tied to Europe, and a healthy NATO alliance is more important now than ever. It comes as no surprise that the Russian apologist Sabang is quick to agree with you.

[sabang]

A pan-European security apparatus should have been set up that incorporated Russia. Many scholars such as Mearsheimer have pointed this out. Fat chance now- Russia looks East, and Europe pays in rubles if they wanna trade. Glorious Victory!

[misskit]

Russia looks East. Right. That will last until China wants its territory back from Russia.

[bsnub]

A pan-European security apparatus should have been set up that incorporated Russia.

Were you perhaps living on another planet over the entire course of the Cold War?

[harrybarracuda]

A pan-European security apparatus should have been set up that incorporated Russia.

Don't be fucking silly.

Why do you think Finland and Sweden don't even want to remain neutral any more?

Putin is an enemy of the world. The sooner he dies the better.

[sabang]

And then you have to deal with Putin's successor- but Russia remains. What really changes?

Anyway, I don't think they have put it in so many words, but both China and India appreciate the tremendous economic boost you have gifted them- at the expense of Europe.

[harrybarracuda]

And then you have to deal with Putin's successor- but Russia remains. What really changes?

You really are that stupid aren't you.

Anyway, I don't think they have put it in so many words, but both China and India appreciate the tremendous economic boost you have gifted them- at the expense of Europe.

More gloating from the snivelling Putin sycophant.

[Norton]

Strongly disagree with this. The US is strongly tied to Europe, and a healthy NATO alliance is more important now than ever. It comes as no surprise that the Russian apologist Sabang is quick to agree with you.

Figured you would quickly disagree but suppose there was no NATO and Russia invaded the Ukraine. Would that prohibit the US from arming and training the Ukraine? Of course not.

A pan-European security apparatus should have been set up that incorporated Russia.

At the time when NATO formed and the reason it was formed was to provide collective security against the Soviet Union because Stalin decided it would be a good idea to invade a bunch of sovereign nations. That was then and this is now but Putin's invasion of the Ukraine pretty much rules out Russia's inclusion in any sort of European mutual defense organization.

[sabang]

Sure. But back in the day, Putin and Lavrov were virtually begging for it. But that was then. I agree with Mearsheimer overall- I think the "collective West" lost an opportunity there. Now Russia will be asiacentric.

[panama hat]

No question this must happen. Should have happened decades ago after European nation economies recovered. Only the military industrial complex benefits from the treasure spent on NATO. Treasure that should be used to benefit average US folks.

NATO's used by date has long past. Europe needs to form and fund an equivalent alliance to replace NATO which excludes the US.

What a typically Seppo-centric line. European countries had agreed-upon timelines in terms of percentage of GDP for military expenditure - if the US wants to increase its momentum for societal, intellectual and educational atrophy then keep that to yourselves.
As for NATO being obsolete . . . if NATO wasn't there do you think Russia would be holding back the way it has? Sure the US could supply Ukraine but it would have to rely on European nations to assist . . . If only they could form a type of allegiance that would facilitate that . . . maybe call it something geograhically-oriented.

suppose there was no NATO and Russia invaded the Ukraine.

Ukraine would be gone. Next suppositon.

Putin and Lavrov were virtually begging for it

Except they weren't, neither virtually nor in person

Now Russia will be asiacentric.

Rubbish. Russia needs 'Asia' but sits firmly in Europe. They already have shit cars so don't need Tatas and Jaguars. Look at a current world map and at historical maps - you may learn something.

[bsnub]

if NATO wasn't there do you think Russia would be holding back the way it has?

As arrogant as Russia was at the start of the war (lightning strike on Kyiv and the declaration they would decapitate the Ukrainian government in three days.) I think without NATO, Putin would have launched a much larger war, attacking not just Ukraine but the Baltic States and Poland as well.

This becomes more evident when you watch Russian state propaganda. The caustic, bellicose talk from propagandists like Vladimir Solovyovis and others is pretty horrifying towards all the countries I mentioned above. Without NATO, there is no question IMHO that Russia would have absolutely invaded them as well.

[Norton]

What a typically Seppo-centric line. European countries had agreed-upon timelines in terms of percentage of GDP for military expenditure

They agreed upon 2% of GDP. Not Seppo orientated just a personal view of honoring a commitment.

"The number of NATO members which have reached or exceeded this level of spending was still only nine out of the 29 NATO members with armed forces. The list encompasses the U.S., the UK, Greece, Croatia, Estonia, Latvia, Poland, Lithuania and Slovakia, showing that Eastern European nations have potentially been more attuned to military threats in Europe arising again. Romania and France, which had also previously hit the 2-percent goal, stayed slightly below in 2022. The next closest to hitting the threshold were NATO's newest members, Montenegro and North Macedonia at 1.75 to 1.78 percent of GDP in defense spending, followed by Albania, Bulgaria and the Netherlands.

Despite recent gains, larger and wealthier NATO members stayed behind the goal in 2022 - often by a large margin. This includes Germany, Canada, Italy and Spain."

• Chart: Where NATO Defense Expenditure Stands in 2022 | Statista

Sure the US could supply Ukraine but it would have to rely on European nations to assist . . . If only they could form a type of allegiance that would facilitate that . . . maybe call it something geograhically-oriented.

This was my premise re NATO not existing but, let's say, the ETO. A European Treaty Organization in it's place. Same nations sans US, same charter. Then the ETO would have to rely on the US to assist in the Ukraine which they no doubt would.

To me an ETO makes more sense for Europe and the US, not to mention Canada, my birthplace.

[Norton]

I think without NATO, Putin would have launched a much larger war, attacking not just Ukraine but the Baltic States and Poland as well.

Agree if as I point out above no Euro equivalent to NATO existed.

[bsnub]

Despite recent gains, larger and wealthier NATO members stayed behind the goal in 2022 - often by a large margin. This includes Germany, Canada, Italy and Spain."

This is unacceptable, and the US needs to apply leverage against those that do not honor the agreed 2% target. After all, war is on their doorstep and even if Russia has been exposed as a paper tiger that would quickly be defeated by NATO, this is not the time to languish on defense spending.

Agree if as I point out above no Euro equivalent to NATO existed.

You are usually always pretty spot on, but I do not agree with you here. The US gives NATO it's punch, and it does all the heavy lifting, especially with logistics and in air refueling. Russia would not hesitate to attempt to punch an EU equivalent in the nose, IMHO.

[russellsimpson]

not to mention Canada, my birthplace.

I have a friend who managed to get in the American military as well. He did receive some long term medical benefits. He really didn't like that period of his life.

Friendly forces hit him with a planeload of Agent Orange.

the Baltic States and Poland as well.

That's debatable.

[sabang]

The US foreign policy establishment and security must realise it is no longer the World's sole hegemon, and can no longer afford to foot the bill for everything- least of all the trillions of dollars wasted on the sort of folly we have seen this century. It is the most indebted nation in World history and continues to print money hand over fist- yet the most urgent challenges are at home. Your remaining allies, neither. Hubris must give way to Realism. Basically, it is fighting a losing battle based on last centuries outmoded, and frankly discredited, thinking.

Furthermore, as less of the World's international trade is transacted in USD, neither will the US be able to borrow unlimited amounts of money from the rest of the World, forever. Certainly not on as favourable terms. It is only the money guys that are really paying attention to this, but it is a considerable concern- and threatens much more than the USA.

[David48atTD]

The sister ship to the sunken Russian cruiser Moskva has reportedly left its position in the Mediterranean Sea.

The departure of Russia’s Slava-class cruiser comes six months after Moscow had deployed it to the region.

Marshal Ustinov sailed through the Strait of Gibraltar on August 24, after operating in the Mediterranean Sea since early February.
Watch the video to know why is Russia reducing its naval presence in the Mediterranean region.

[David48atTD]

A local discussing the war, over 500,000 views in 2 days

The Crimea analysis is @ the 6 min mark

[David48atTD]

Just some War Porn ...

[misskit]

Kremlin Seeks ‘Limited’ Ukraine Annexation Vote - Reports

The Kremlin is planning to hold referendums on joining Russia next month in just two regions of Ukraine amid continuing heavy fighting, independent Russian media outlets reported Friday.


Moscow is “impatient” and would like to “pull off” referendums in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions as fast as possible amid stalemate on the battlefield, said the Vyorstka news website citing unidentified government sources.


At the same time, the Kremlin is putting off similar referendums in the occupied Ukrainian regions of Kherson and Zaporizhzhia, which it hopes can be staged at a later date, according to Vyorstka.


Putin launched the invasion of Ukraine on Feb. 24 days after recognizing the separatist Donetsk People’s Republic (DNR) and the Luhansk People’s Republic (LNR) as independent states.


The current plan, according to Vyorstka, is for votes to be held in the DNR and LNR on Sept. 14 — three days after local elections are scheduled to take place in Russia.


“These territories are Russian regions,” Andrei Turchak, senior Russian lawmaker and leader of the pro-Kremlin United Russia party, said Thursday at a party meeting.


The Vedomosti business daily reported Thursday that the Kremlin had ditched plans to tie the southeast Ukrainian referendums to Russia’s local elections on Sept. 11 because of the ongoing fighting.


While the entirety of Ukraine’s Luhansk region was seized by Russian troops in July, large parts of Donetsk region remain under Kyiv’s control.


“There’s no final scenario,” Vedomosti quoted an unidentified source close to the Kremlin as saying. The source added that the Kremlin’s plans hinge on “the situation on the frontline in general.”


Both reports follow U.S. warnings that Russia could announce the first “sham” referendum in occupied parts of Ukraine by the end of the week.


"Since they obviously are having trouble achieving geographic gains inside Ukraine, they are trying to gain that through false political means,” White House national security spokesman John Kirby said Wednesday.


Kirby said U.S. intelligence shows Russian officials in the occupied areas are worried local residents will not turn out to take part in the vote.


"The Russian officials themselves know that what they're doing will lack legitimacy, and it will not reflect the will of the people,” he added.

Kremlin Seeks ‘Limited’ Ukraine Annexation Vote – Reports - The Moscow Times

[bsnub]

At the same time, the Kremlin is putting off similar referendums in the occupied Ukrainian regions of Kherson and Zaporizhzhia

Because all the puppet officials they install there keep getting killed by partisans, and you can't have a referendum when Kherson happens to be currently cut off.

[OhOh]

“Europe quietly abandons Ukraine” is not a fact. They are still sending military aid.

The truth.

the fact that the US just announced the largest aid package to date, at $3.1 billion.

Announced more hopium yes , but delivered what game changing resources, to whom, and when?

One man's doubtful, but with many factual sources included, opinion;

August 27, 2022 by M. K. BHADRAKUMAR

Ground beneath Zelensky’s feet is shifting

"Reading and rereading the US President Joe Biden’s statement last Monday on Ukraine Independence Day, one is reminded of English poet John Keats’ immortal line, ‘Heard melodies are sweet but those unheard are sweeter.’ Three things are striking.

Biden repeatedly invoked the abiding nature of the US’ relationship with the Ukrainian people. But in the entire statement, he never once mentioned the Ukrainian government or the leadership of President Volodymyr Zelensky. A careless omission?

Second, Biden underplayed to the point of ignoring the intense US-Ukraine partnership at state-to-state level. The regime in Kiev is unthinkable without robust US support.

Third, most important, Biden was silent on the war as such, which is at a decisive stage at present.

As recently as on August 18, twenty prominent American national security professionals urged the Biden administration to “to produce a satisfactory strategic narrative which enables governments to maintain public support for the NATO engagement over the long term… (and) move more quickly and strategically, in meeting Ukrainian requests for weapons systems.”

But Biden neatly sidestepped all that. Even when he spoke of the latest tranche of arms for Ukraine worth $2.98 billion, Biden expressed the hope that the weapon systems may ensure that Ukraine “can continue to defend itself over the long term.” (Emphasis added.)

American analysts estimate that the $2.98 billion weapons package is radically different in its dispensation mechanism. Thus, while military aid hitherto was drawn from pre-existing stockpiles of US weaponry and equipment, this time around, the aid package will be purchased or ordered from defence contractors.

John Kirby, the spokesman for the National Security Council, admitted to reporters that some of the aid in the latest package could be dispensed more slowly than other parts of the package depending on defence contractors’ current stocks. He vaguely said, “It’s going to depend, quite frankly, on the item that we’re talking about. Some stuff probably will still need some production time to develop.”

In effect, the military-industrial complex may have more to celebrate in Biden’s announcement than Zelensky. The Biden administration is moving away from depleting US current stockpiles, as European allies are also doing.

According to Mark Cancian, Senior Adviser, International Security Program at the CSIS, Biden’s latest $2.98 billion package “will sustain the Ukrainian military over the long term but take months or even years to implement fully… Thus, this (package) will sustain the Ukrainian military over the long term, likely postwar, rather than increase its capabilities in the near or medium term…

“This means that the U.S. ability to provide equipment rapidly may be diminishing… The administration may need to ask Congress for more money soon. Although the bipartisan consensus for supporting Ukraine remains strong, there may be a fight with the progressive left and isolationist right about the wisdom of sending money abroad when there are pressing needs at home.”

This is almost the same dilemmas that the US’ European allies are facing. The prestigious German think tank, Kiel Institute for the World Economy reported last week: “The flow of new international support for Ukraine has dried up in July. No large EU country like Germany, France, or Italy, has made significant new pledges.”

It said the EU commission is pushing for larger and more regular aid packages to Ukraine, but the enthusiasm is lacking at the member country level — “Major EU countries such as France, Spain, or Italy have so far provided very little support or remain very opaque about their aid.”

Waning domestic support is the main factor. Even in Poland, there is “refugee fatigue”. The inflation is the all-consuming concern in the public opinion. The German magazine Spiegel has reported that Chancellor Olaf Scholz is facing dissent within his own party ranks from those who want Berlin to stop providing Kiev with weapons and instead want the chancellor to engage in dialogue with Russia.

On Thursday, Chancellor Scholz made a significant remark at a public event in Magdeburg that Berlin will not provide Kiev with arms that could be used to attack Russia. Scholz explained that Berlin’s goal in sending weapons is to “support Ukraine” and “prevent an escalation of the war into something that would be very different.” He said he was echoing Biden’s thinking.

Indeed, while on the one hand, the United States continues to exert military pressure on Russia, hoping to break the resistance of its long-term strategic adversary, on the other hand, over the past two months, Washington has repeatedly signalled that it is not seeking victory, but a final solution to the Ukraine problem through peaceful negotiations.

As in Germany, there is a huge amount of anti-war pressure in the US too, especially among Democratic Party and the academic elite, as well as retired high-ranking officials and business executives, calling on the administration to stop heating up the situation around Ukraine. if the Democrats lose the midterm elections, or if the Republicans come to power in 2024, then the war could take a fundamentally different turn. Over time, similar changes are highly likely to occur in Europe too.

Already, the steady decline in the intensity of the impact of European and US sanctions against Russia speaks for itself. The Economist, which is a virulent critic of the Kremlin, admitted this week that the expected knockout blow from anti-Russia restrictions “has not materialised.” The magazine wrote: “Energy sales will generate a current-account surplus of $265 billion this year (for Russia), the world’s second-largest after China. After a crunch, Russia’s financial system has stabilised and the country is finding new suppliers for some imports, including China.”

On a sombre note, the Economist wrote, “The unipolar moment of the 1990s, when America’s supremacy was uncontested, is long gone, and the West’s appetite to use military force has waned since the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.”

Again, internationally, the support for Ukraine outside of the western bloc has dropped dramatically in the recent months. Kiev’s proposal on Wednesday to condemn Russia attracted the backing of just 58 out of 193 UN member states, whereas, at the March 2 UN GA session, 141 member countries had voted for a non-binding resolution to condemn Moscow.

Equally, Zelensky’s teflon coating is peeling off. His drug addiction is out in public view. The regime is shaky, as the wave of purges in the Ukrainian security establishment shows. According to Turkish President Recep Erdogan who met Zelensky in Lvov recently, the latter sounded insecure and unsure whether he is being fully kept informed of the ground situation.

Zelensky’s erratic behaviour is not exactly endearing him, either. Pope Francis is the latest figure to be chastised by Kiev — because the Pontiff remarked that Darya Dugina was “innocent.” The Vatican ambassador was summoned to the foreign ministry to receive Kiev’s protest.

The German daily Handelsblatt wrote today that the “internal cohesion” of the Ukrainian government “is in danger. There are serious allegations against the president… At home, the Ukrainian president, who is celebrated abroad as a war hero, is under pressure… The comedian has become a warlord… The 44-year-old has so far been able to switch and act freely with his team, which is partly made up of colleagues from his television production company. But the grace period now seems to have expired.” The daily forecast an approaching political upheaval by winter.

Biden carefully distanced himself from the Kiev regime and focused on the people-to-people relations. Even if the Americans know the Byzantine corridors of power in Kiev, they cannot afford to be explicit like the former Russian president Dmitry Medvedev who predicted last week that the Ukrainian military may stage a coup and enter into peace talks with Russia."

https://www.indianpunchline.com/ground-beneath-zelenskys-feet-is-shifting/


NaGastan has previous in promising xxx, yyy, zzz, many, many times.

It's renowned by some for "winning", remember Grenada.

Others not so much winning, more whooshing away from the tops of buildins or overnight, leaving allies and those it swore to defend from the .... hordes, behind.

As for its current war, allegedly from afar , their next defeat/embarrassing ending is currently unknown and: