Ukraine war mega thread

[pickel]

Suspend bsnubs posting privileges, right now.

It’s not backspit?

Oh dear. Since sabby has left Oz for Thailand, he's had to swap out the cheap wine for Hong Thong.

[hallelujah]

Oh dear. Since sabby has left Oz for Thailand, he's had to swap out the cheap wine for Hong Thong.

Wasn't he complaining elsewhere about posting rights being restricted?

[David48atTD]

It’s not backspit?

Must be BS because didn't have a link to indicate it wasn't

[bsnub]

Suspend bsnubs posting privileges, right now.

The truth hurts, eh dummy?

[sabang]

[Jeez, the boneheads don't even have a funny bone. ]


US and Ukraine, Goals in Conflict

by Patrick J. Buchanan Posted onJune 03, 2022

Among the nations aiding Ukraine in its resistance to the Russian invasion, America has been foremost. Yet the war interests of our two nations are not identical.

To the U.S., the imperative is that the war be contained, not expanded, and that we not be drawn into a wider war with Russia.

For the independence, territorial integrity and democratic rule of Ukraine, while championed by the US, are not vital US interests. None of them justifies a war with Russia that could imperil the security and, if it escalated to nuclear weapons, the very survival of our country.

That America is not "all in" in Ukraine is obvious. Before Feb. 24, the US never brought Ukraine into NATO, never gave it an "Article 5" war guarantee, never agreed to fight alongside it if attacked.

From the first February days of this war, we ruled out US "boots on the ground" or US participation in a "no-fly zone," which would require US pilots to shoot down Russian planes.

These decisions and declarations about what we would not do testified to the limits of the US commitment to Ukraine, as well as to our reluctance to take serious risks to ourselves on Kyiv’s behalf.

President Volodymyr Zelensky’s goal, however, the defeat of the Russian invaders and their expulsion from Ukraine, would require greater support from the US and NATO than he is receiving or is likely to receive.

The US and NATO are willing to supply Ukraine with the weapons to defend themselves and defeat the Russians in battle, but neither NATO nor the US is prepared to fight the Ukrainians’ war for them.

When it comes to the fighting and dying, this is their war, not ours.

To shame NATO and the US more fully and openly into his war, Zelensky is accusing reluctant Western nations of being appeasers cut from the same bolt of cloth as Neville Chamberlain at Munich.

What is Zelensky saying?

Our cause is Europe’s cause. Our cause is NATO’s cause. Our cause is democracy’s cause. Our cause is the world’s cause. If we go down, we will be only the first to fall to Vladimir Putin’s empire. Others will follow.

Henry Kissinger has said that, in any negotiated settlement, Ukraine will likely have to cede some territory to Russia. Ideally, said Kissinger, "the dividing line should be a return to the status quo" before the 2022 invasion. Russia has held Crimea and parts of Luhansk and Donetsk since 2014.

"Pursuing the war beyond that point would not be about the freedom of Ukraine," said Kissinger, "but a new war against Russia itself."

A livid Zelensky replied: "It seems that Mr. Kissinger’s calendar is not 2022, but 1938 … Nobody heard from him then that it was necessary to adapt to the Nazis instead of fleeing them or fighting them."

These cracks in the coalition backing Ukraine are certain to become more pronounced, as Russia appears to be consolidating control of the Donbas, which Putin has set as his principal goal.

Italy, France and Germany are all in contact with Putin. All are pressing for negotiations. None has insisted on what Zelensky has at times demanded: Russia’s surrender of Ukrainian territory it has held since 2014.

East European nations, familiar with Russian rule, echo Zelensky in calling for the defeat, humiliation and expulsion of Russia from Ukraine.

When and if a ceasefire comes and negotiations begin, there seems certain to be a fracturing of the coalition backing Ukraine.

For while Russia was defeated in its offensives to capture Kyiv, Kharkiv, and Odessa, Moscow has succeeded in capturing Mariupol, the Sea of Azov and the "land bridge" it sought from Russia to Crimea – and appears to be moving toward dominance of the entire Donbas.

Ukraine is also blockaded by Russian warships from exporting its wheat and corn, upon which a number of developing nations depend to feed their populations and avert malnutrition and even famine.

And with Russia making slow but steady gains in the Donbas, Putin does not appear to be holding a weak hand in any negotiations.

With the Ukrainians and Russians exchanging artillery fire in the Donbas, Zelensky asked the US for its High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems, known as HIMARS.

With strike capabilities of almost 50 miles, this could put Russia itself in range. But US officials say they have assurances from Ukrainian leaders that HIMARS will not be used against Russian territory.

The Kremlin has warned that any nation sending advanced weapons to Ukraine will face harsh repercussions. Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has charged the West with declaring "total war" on Russia.

What this suggests is that the war is now generating greater risks and dangers for the US than any additional rewards we might realize from "weakening" Russia with further fighting.

It may be time to tell Zelensky not only what we will and will not provide but what we believe are the acceptable terms for a truce.

https://original.antiwar.com/buchanan/2022/06/02/us-and-ukraine-goals-in-conflict/

[sabang]

Perpetual Debt, Perpetual War
by David Stockman Posted on May 27, 2022


....No more. Massive fiscal deficits year-after-year have become a way of life in the Imperial City, but even then CBO’s latest 10-year forecast is a shocker. It shows that even if there is no recession for the next ten years (fat chance!) and existing tax and spending policies (dashed red line) remain in place without enactment of a single new spending program or tax cut (even fatter chance!), the deficit will exceed $3 trillion per year by the end of the decade.


That would amount to a structural deficit equal to 8.4% of GDP and a ticket to fiscal perdition. In dollar terms, it would add $20.3 trillion to the public debt over the next decade, taking the total debt to $50 trillion by 2032.


That is to say, 50-years on from the photo above, the public debt will have risen fifty-fold.




Here’s the thing, however. Such horrendous projections do not phase these clowns one single bit – as was underscored in spades by Congress’ shameful boondoggling on the Ukraine aid bill. That $40 billion was rushed into law sight unseen and without the benefit of any committee hearings at all.


Worse still, the historic party of the antiwar left went abjectly AWOL. The vote among Dems was 48-0 in the Senate and 223-0 in the House. And those stunning counts include Bernie Sanders and the House "squad" all in the "yea" column.


That is to say, if Washington cannot muster even a single Dem "nay" vote on the funding of a mindless war that has no bearing whatsoever on America’s homeland security, then the prospects for restoration of even a semblance of fiscal discipline are somewhere between slim and none.


Indeed, what in the world is wrong with these blithering knuckleheads? Last week’s action brings already spent and promised Ukraine weapons and aid to $54 billion.
For crying out loud, Ukraine’s GDP last year was just $155 billion. At the current run rate, they have spent 120% of Ukraine’s GDP on its own destruction, and with no end in sight.


It is no wonder, therefore, that the pretentious little peacock who parades as the country’s president is now telling the world that the war will go on until the last Ukrainian soldier is dead and Washington’s endless bounty is finally used up.


After all, at a moment when Russia is making steady gains in Donbas, reportedly now poised to take all of Luhansk province, Zelensky instructed the grandees gathered at Davos that Ukrainian forces would fight to liberate all occupied territory:


Ukraine will fight until it reclaims all its territories," he stressed. "It’s about our independence and our sovereignty." This as there have been calls from a handful of European leaders to make some territorial concessions for the sake of ending the war based on a negotiated settlement.


Zelensky had said the day prior, on Tuesday, that negotiating recognition of Russia’s possession of Crimea is not on the table. "Russia will also have to leave Crimea," he had said during a daily briefing according to the Kyiv Independent. Speaking of Kherson, Melitopol, Enerhodar, Mariupol, he said the Russians must exit these and "all other cities and communities where they are still pretending to be the owners."


There is no other way to say it: Washington has empowered a madman, who is so smitten by his own strutting on the world stage that rationality itself has become the victim.


There is not a snowball’s chance in the hot place that Putin is about to give back Crimea, nor the Donbas and all the cities listed above by Zelensky. And when they stay in Russian possession it will not make a damn bit of difference to America’s national security anyway.


But, of course, that’s not what Ukraine is actually about. Those 271 Dem "yea" votes were merely an exercise in political virtue-signalling. They were a vote against Donald Trump’s avatar on the scene – the endlessly demonized Vladimir Putin.


That’s why the discourse about this calamity has lost all touch with reality. For instance, Zelensky is now saying that if Ukraine is not victorious, the Baltics will be next on Putin’s agenda and American servicemen will soon be shedding Article 5 blood in Latvia.


That’s absurd, yet nary of word of rebuke was to be heard from Washington. The town is in full on war heat with no compunction at all about the massive waste of American treasure or putting the American economy itself in harm’s way.


Thus, according to current reports the Biden Administration is looking for more ways to inflict damage on Russia’s economy by targeting buyers of Russian oil. As the New York Times reported last week, these proposed measures include so-called secondary sanctions that would block Russian oil buyers from doing business with companies based in the US and in other nations aligned with Washington.


Right. In order to win a pointless battle over some no count real estate along the Dnieper River, Washington is prepared to declare war on Chinese, Indian, Greek, Brazilian etc. companies.


Likewise, no matter that Russia wants to pay its international debts and US and European lenders are more than happy to receive the proceeds they are owed. But, no, these lenders are being expropriated by Washington’s writ – all to make sure that Putin gets the message.


So after Wednesday, US investors will no longer be allowed to receive bond payments from Russia without breaching sanctions. And this whole misbegotten Ukraine escapade is supposedly about defending economic freedom!

FULL- Perpetual Debt, Perpetual War - Antiwar.com Original


It is about time that Washington started telling clown Zelensky to STFU.

[pickel]

Before Feb. 24, the US never brought Ukraine into NATO, never gave it an "Article 5" war guarantee, never agreed to fight alongside it if attacked.

So no need for Putin to invade then, right?

[bsnub]

Sab's shoveling his usual horseshit.

[sabang]

David Stockman and Pat Buchanan. You wouldn't even be hired to clean their shoes junior.

[panama hat]

Wasn't he complaining elsewhere about posting rights being restricted?

He's fucked up on some cheap booze . . . ban others but he and his fellow cretins can post shit and lies any- and everywhere and anytime.

This is between claiming that China nd Russia are real democracies with polls showing 164% support for the government.

So no need for Putin to invade then, right?

There's the rub . . . never was, still isn't. Ukraine was going nowhere in this regard.

East European nations, familiar with Russian rule, echo Zelensky in calling for the defeat, humiliation and expulsion of Russia from Ukraine.

No shit, but I guess sabang and ohwoe would call these countries cryhards and CIA-stoges.

[harrybarracuda]

Sab's shoveling his usual horseshit.

And reams of it.

[russellsimpson]

But US officials say they have assurances from Ukrainian leaders that HIMARS will not be used against Russian territory.

[sabang]

The kids just gonna have to accept some reality, innit? Expect much resentment, and begrudgement.

[bsnub]

The kids just gonna have to accept some reality, innit?

It sure as shit is not going to come from you, since you are full of horseshit.

[sabang]

Sure, "Mr Putin is having his ass handed to him on a Plate ".

[bsnub]

"Mr Putin is having his ass handed to him on a Plate ".

He is.

‘Russia is failing’ in Ukraine and has already ‘strategically lost’ the war, says the head of Britain’s armed forces

‘Russia is failing’ in Ukraine and has already ‘strategically lost’ the war | Fortune

[sabang]

Just don't blame me kid, as reality inevitably sinks in. I'm just the messenger.

[hallelujah]

He's fucked up on some cheap booze . . . ban others but he and his fellow cretins can post shit and lies any- and everywhere and anytime.

This is between claiming that China nd Russia are real democracies with polls showing 164% support for the government.

.

He is such a hypocrite, but he most definitely has a sympathetic ear or two on the mod team.

[harrybarracuda]

Just don't blame me kid, as reality inevitably sinks in. I'm just the messenger.

You're not a messenger, you're a retarded broken record.

[bsnub]

Just don't blame me kid, as reality inevitably sinks in. I'm just the messenger.

You have no message. You are a clown who bleated on and on for months that Putin would never invade, and you were made a fool of. Furthermore, you had absolutely no clue what you were talking about then, and the same is true now.

[sabang]

Meanwhile Assad is still President of Syria, Maduro still President of Venezuela, amerka got their sorry ass kicked out of Afghanistan, Libya is a mess, Iraq is a mess- and was a bloody debacle and whoops- no WMD. And Chinese GDP will overtake that of the USA around 2028. Guess I wasn't all that wrong after all, e'hhh, Mr "Putin is having his ass handed to him on a Plate". So ferk off with your childishness loser, and the economic sanctions are not working and Ukraine is losing the war, Boohoo.

Shame really, because if you had any adults in the Biden admin/ US State dep't, this whole latest debacle could have been avoided. Boohoo. Now you are gonna have to listen to Kissinger, like it or not.

[bsnub]

Meanwhile Assad is still President of Syria, Maduro still President of Venezuela, amerka got their sorry ass kicked out of Afghanistan, Libya is a mess, Iraq is a mess- and was a bloody debacle and whoops- no WMD. And Chinese GDP will overtake that of the USA around 2028. Guess I wasn't all that wrong after all, e'hhh, Mr "Putin is having his ass handed to him on a Plate". So ferk off with your childishness loser, and the economic sanctions are not working and Ukraine is losing the war, Boohoo.

Yep, more utter horseshit. Just after 4pm and already deep into the piss. A fucking completely clueless utter buffoon blathering on about fuck all. I could pick that horseshit apart line by line, as I have done many times before. But why? Because you are a dense propagandized windup merchant and nothing more.

Why hasn't Russia taken Sievierodonetsk yet, dummy?

Russian forces made marginal gains on the outskirts of Severodonetsk on June 18 but have largely stalled along other axes of advance. Russian troops are likely facing mounting losses and troop and equipment degradation that will complicate attempts to renew offensive operations on other critical locations as the slow battle for Severodonetsk continues. As ISW previously assessed, Russian forces will likely be able to seize Severodonetsk in the coming weeks, but at the cost of concentrating most of their available forces in this small area. Other Russian operations in eastern Ukraine—such as efforts to capture Slovyansk and advance east of Bakhmut—have made little progress in the past two weeks. Russian forces are continuing to fight to push Ukrainian troops away from occupied frontiers north of Kharkiv City and along the Southern Axis, but have not made significant gains in doing so, thus leaving them vulnerable to Ukrainian counteroffensive and partisan pressure.

The Russian military continues to face challenges with the morale and discipline of its troops in Ukraine. The Ukrainian Main Intelligence Directorate released what it reported were intercepted phone calls on June 17 and 18 in which Russian soldiers complained about frontline conditions, poor equipment, and overall lack of personnel.[1] One soldier claimed that units have been largely drained of personnel and that certain battalion tactical groups (BTGs) have only 10 to 15 troops remaining in service.

Russian Offensive Campaign Assessment, June 18 | Institute for the Study of War

So much winning.

[bsnub]

No question that Russia is the most hated nation on the planet...

[harrybarracuda]

Wasn't he complaining elsewhere about posting rights being restricted?

The dopey c u n t started a whole thread saying how bad the west is at censorship, despite being a massive arselicker of the chinkies and Russia, and here he is demanding a poster be censored.

Thick as fucking shit I tell ya.

[sabang]

Are the petulant children all butthurt because the reality is finally sinking in that Ukraine is losing this war, and the sanctions aren't working?