Ukraine war mega thread

[pickel]

Russian Spies Hilariously Screw Up Putin’s ‘Assassination Plot’ Claim

They even showed Molotov cocktails, in plastic bottles. Horrible acting in the videos too.

[pickel]

You introduced "children" into the thread, not I.

Yes, how dare I bring the Russian murders of children into the thread. It spoils your narrative of "liberating" them.

Wanker.

[pickel]

Does the National Enquirer have any unique takes on this matter I wonder? Is Vlad an alien, maybe?

Considering your links to Q-anoners and other wingnuts, I'm sure if they had something that supported your narrative, you'd be the first to use them as a source.

[Troy]

No more gas for Poland

❗Russia has suspended gas supplies to Poland under the "Yamal contract" - Polish portal Onet

According to the newspaper, the Russian Federation did not inform the Polish side about the reasons for the suspension of supplies. A crisis group has already been urgently convened in the Polish government.

Poland refuses to pay in Roubles...and they have 76% storage at the moment although I don't know if that will see them through until the Norway gas pipeline opens in October which screws Russia anyway.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

[sabang]

Just watch their economies plummet, and their foreign investment dive. This is getting stoopid.

[misskit]

At least it is spring, not the dead of winter.

[misskit]

Putin Says ‘Fake’ Bucha Massacre Ruined Chances of Ukraine Peace Deal


He’s apparently had so much Botox it can be hard to see Vladimir Putin’s lips moving—but if they are, you can be sure he’s lying. The Russian president says chances for peace with Ukraine were derailed by what he called “false” Western claims of a massacre around Bucha. After Russian forces retreated from the town this month, the bodies of more than 400 civilians were found, with many discovered to be shot in the head with their hands tied behind their back. The government in Kyiv has asked the International Criminal Court to treat it as a war crime. But in a meeting in the Kremlin on Tuesday with UN chief António Guterres, Putin dismissed reports of “supposed massacres.” “There was a provocation in the village of Bucha, which the Russian army had nothing to do with,” he said, according to The Times of London. “We know who prepared this provocation, by what means, and what kind of people worked on it.”

https://www.thedailybeast.com/vladim...=home?ref=home

[Shutree]

Just watch their economies plummet, and their foreign investment dive. This is getting stoopid.

'Their' includes Russia, right?
No winners here.

[sabang]

Absolutely no winners, as best I can see.

[OhOh]

Following a meeting in Ramstein, the Germans are now intending to send 50 anti-aircraft Geopard SPAAGs to Ukraine.

Politico: "Germany approves tank sales to Ukraine, bowing to pressure"

April 27, 2022

One German's experience in the Bundeswehr, opinion of the selection of military equipment to be "delivered" to a warring countries military from a "defensive" NATO countries" old relics:

"I find it amusing how many misunderstand this move.

First off - the Gepard (Cheetah) is not a tank as the turret has very little protective armor.

It is a short range (5 km / 3 miles) anti-air system on a tank chassis useful against helicopters, drones and low flying planes.

That Scholz decided to offer these, instead of real tanks or armored infantry carriers as the U.S. and the camouflage-Green party demanded, is a nice way out.

It guarantees that the Ukrainians will not be able to use them before the war is over.

The Gepard system with its two 35mm cannons is more than 50 years old but has been upgraded two or three times. The Germany army retired their last one of these in 2010. They have since been held in storage.

I remember them well from my time in the Bundeswehr. While my primary training was as a gunner on a real tank, the Leopard 1A3, two people I knew were trained as gunners for the Gepard. There was a huge difference though. It took 6 months of training to become a reasonably good tank gunner. It took 12 month, including hundreds of hours in a simulator, to become a gunner on a Gepard. The commander role required even more training.

The system was excellent for its time, but also really complicate.

The two radars have various modes for different purposes. One would better use the right one or risk to attract explosive countermeasures. The startup of the turret systems and the handling of their various error modes that could occur were not easy to handle. The tank chassis is also more complicate than the original one. It has an additional motor which powers five electric generators, two Metadyne rotary transformers and a flywheel to handle the extraordinary fast movements of the turret (2.5 sec for a 360°turn).

There are probably less than ten people in the current Bundeswehr who still know how to operate and maintain a Gepard. There is thus little chance to find German crews for them.

If the Ukrainians really want to use these outdated systems they will have to train fresh crews for at least a year. Otherwise those guns will be ineffective and of little use.

My hunch though is that none of these will ever be delivered.

The Swiss, who manufactured the cannons and their ammunition, have seen to that:

Neutral Switzerland has vetoed the re-export of Swiss-made ammunition used in Gepard anti-aircraft tanks that Germany is sending to Ukraine, the government said on Tuesday. Germany earlier announced its first delivery of heavy weapons to Ukraine to help it fend off Russian attacks following weeks of pressure at home and abroad to do so.
The Swiss State Secretariat for Economic Affairs (SECO) confirmed a report by broadcaster SRF that it had blocked Germany from sending munitions for the Gepard tank to Ukraine.

Chancellor Scholz likely knew all that.

The offer of Gepards is a safe way to relieve the pressure put onto him to send arms to Ukraine.

It is an offer of a system that can not be used within the timeframe of the war and for which he can not deliver the necessary specialized ammunition.

Are there still some Lockheed F-104 Starfighter in German storage? If so those flying coffins should be offered next."

MoA - Politico: "Germany approves tank sales to Ukraine, bowing to pressure"

The questions he poses:

1. In storage for 12 years, are they ready to rumble, or will they require servicing/repair prior to being despatched?

2. No defence from planes flying above 3 mills.

3. A competent crew take 6 months to one year's training.

4. Very few trainers/maintenance professionals around.

5. Switzerland has vetoed supplying ammunition for the guns.

6. Switzerland has vetoed Germany sending ammunitions to Ukraine from German stocks.

7. A political "intention/promise" to keep domestic and foreign "allies" satisfied.

Which is how the 16% group operate, day, after day, after day.


THE LORD informs his Foreign Minister of the news from Germany.

[OhOh]

Hold on.

It appears that somebody has declared Transnistria Russian territory..

Council of Europe Designates Transnistria ‘Russian Occupied Territory’

Madalin Necsutu Chisinau BIRN

March 16, 2022 15:58

The Council of Europe on Tuesday for the first time designated Moldova's breakaway region 'occupied territory' as opposed to territory 'under the effective control of the Russian Federation'.

"The Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, PACE, adopted a resolution on Tuesday designating Moldova’s breakaway region of Transnistria as a territory occupied by Russia. Russia’s membership in the Council of Europe was revoked on Wednesday. This was the first official recognition of Transnistria as an “occupied territory” at this level. Until now, the Council of Europe has called the territory “under the effective control of the Russian Federation”.

“Through its attitude and actions, the leadership of the Russian Federation poses an open menace to security in Europe, following a path which also includes the act of military aggression against Moldova and, respectively, the occupation of its Transnistrian region,” the opinion adopted by the PACE reads.

In fact, Russia on Tuesday already said it was quitting the CoE, which it joined in 1996, leaving before it was expelled. As such, it will no longer be a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights, and its citizens will no longer be able to file applications to the European Court of Human Rights ECHR.

Various conflicts in which Russia is involved around the Black Sea – in Ukraine and Georgia – were also condemned in PACE’s opinion.

The resolution on the de facto Russian occupation of the breakaway region of Transnistria was introduced by 21 deputies, of which nine were Romanian. [The region was part of the Romania between the two world wars and most of the population speak Romanian.]

In the resolution adopted unanimously on Tuesday, the PACE said Russia had committed severe violations, incompatible with the status of a member of the Council of Europe.

“Russia has escalated its military activities against Ukraine to unprecedented levels, causing thousands of civilian casualties, displacing millions of people and devastating the country,” it said.

The opposition pro-Russian Socialist Party in Moldova condemned “the haste, emotion and lack of insight” of the resolution condemning Russia’s military operation in Ukraine, its “military aggression against Moldova” and “occupation of the Transnistrian region”.

A former diplomat and political analyst, Igor Munteanu, said the PACE document spoke of an unprecedented display of solidarity among Europe’s democracies against an aggressive Russia.

“This solidarity sends the message to the Chisinau [Moldovan] government that any hesitation on the subject of this military aggression or delicate relations with the oligarchs in Tiraspol [Transnistria] does not bring any ‘discount’ from the aggressor state,” Munteanu said.

He added that the resolution could serve as a strong lever for “the healthy forces of Moldovan society to block, cancel or systematically challenge any attempt to legitimize the current foreign occupation regime on the left bank of Dniester River [in Transnistria] under the camouflage of a ‘special status’, built under the dictates of an aggressor state.”

Moldova lost control of mostly Russian-speaking Transnistria after a short armed conflict, after the former Soviet republic declared independence from the Soviet Union in 1992.

The statelet is effectively sustained by Russia, although it claims to be an independent country. There are 1,500 Russian soldiers and peacekeepers stationed on its soil despite calls from Moldova, NATO, Ukraine, and the United States for them to withdraw.

The Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe is one of the two statutory organs of the Council of Europe. It is made up of 324 parliamentarians from the national parliaments of the Council of Europe’s 47 member states."

Council of Europe Designates Transnistria 'Russian Occupied Territory' | Balkan Insight

"Following the decision of the Committee of Ministers on 16 March 2022 the Russian Federation is no longer a member of the Council of Europe. The website will be updated as soon as possible to take account of this development."

https://search.coe.int/cm/pages/resu...00001680a5d7d9

[misskit]

Russians racist? What a surprise!


‘This War Is a Vampire’: Buryat Activists Protest Ukraine Invasion

From her California home, quantum computer scientist Maria Vyushkova uses open-source information to track how many Russian soldiers from the Siberian republic of Buryatia have been killed in the invasion of Ukraine.


An ethnic Buryat born in Russia and member of the anti-war Free Buryatia Foundation, Vyushkova analyzes social media posts, official statements and media reports about funerals to estimate the number of Buryat deaths in Ukraine.


“At the moment, activists have gathered information about 1,700 killed Russian soldiers of which 48 or 49 are Buryat. That is 2.8%. In comparison, Buryats only make up 0.3% of the Russian population,” said Vyushkova.


The disproportionately high death toll of Buryats was one of the reasons for the establishment last month of the Free Buryatia Foundation, the first anti-war organization founded by members of a Russian ethnic minority.

Lying between Lake Baikal and Mongolia in eastern Siberia, the republic of Buryatia is one of Russia’s poorest regions, with average monthly salary of about 44,000 rubles ($571). Approximately one-third of its population practices a mixture of Buddhism and shamanism.


While ethnic Buryats are concentrated in Buryatia, they are one of the country’s largest indigenous groups and are also found in neighboring Russian regions, as well as nearby Mongolia and China.


The poverty of their home regions means that, for many young Buryats in Russia, joining the Armed Forces is the only way to get a stable income.

“There is a correlation between the median income of the region and the death toll,” Vuyshkova told The Moscow Times. “Almost no one from Moscow has been killed.”


The Free Buryatia Foundation was set up shortly after the start of the war and its members are mainly Buryat emigres, although they have some volunteers inside Russia. The group’s leader, journalist Alexandra Garmazhapova, lives in the Czech capital of Prague.


As well as releasing videos in which Buryats condemn the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the group provides legal advice to Buryat servicemen who do not want to fight, and monitors the number of Buryats killed and wounded in the ongoing conflict.


One of the Free Buryatia Foundation’s aims is to push back against the “Putin’s soldiers” nickname that Ukrainian journalists coined for Buryats fighting in Ukraine because of the sheer numbers of them present in Russian units.


“When Ukrainians talk about the Russian troops, they always mention Buryats and Chechens,” Garmazhapova said. “And we do not want this reputation.”

The phrase was later appropriated by a pro-Kremlin youth movement.


After one of the group’s recent videos featuring Buryats criticizing the Russian invasion, Garmazhapova told The Moscow Times she got hundreds of messages of support from across Russia, including the Buryat capital of Ulan-Ude as well as urban centers Moscow and St. Petersburg.


“Because of the military censorship, people who do not support the war feel like they are alone,” Garmazhapova explained. “Like there is something wrong with them.”

It is difficult to gauge the level of the support among Buryats for the invasion of Ukraine, which is over 5,000 kilometers from the republic of Buryatia.


But there is anecdotal evidence of opposition.


On Monday a local resident damaged a Russian flag emblazoned with a large “Z” – a symbol of support for the war – in front of central Ulan-Ude’s famous bronze Lenin head. Police said the following day that a 46-year-old man had been arrested in connection with the incident.


And a woman in Ulan-Ude demanded Tuesday that a minibus driver remove the letter “Z” from his vehicle. The driver took her to the police station.


While the group has counted almost 50 Buryats killed in Ukraine, a lack of official data about Russian casualties means the real death toll is likely to be far higher.


At least 85 soldiers from the republic of Buryatia have been killed in Ukraine since the beginning of the invasion, according to open-source research published this week by independent media outlet Mediazona that counted both ethnic Russians and ethnic Buryats.


Dead soldiers from Buryatia have been as young as 18.

Of all Russia’s regions, only the majority Muslim North Caucasus republic of Dagestan had a higher death toll than Buryatia, according to the independent Mediazona news website.


“This war,” Vyushkova said, “is like a vampire. It sucks the young blood out of Buryatia.”


Garmazhapova’s group also provides help for Buryat servicemen who do not want to fight in Ukraine. “What we can do here is put the families of the soldiers in touch with lawyers and human rights organizations,” she said. So far, about 20 people have contacted the foundation in connection with this issue.


Many of the killed Buryat soldiers were university graduates who you might not expect to be in the army, according to Vyushkova, including teachers, lawyers and a programmer.


“They couldn’t find any jobs,” Vyushkova said. “Just imagine: a 40-year-old junior sergeant with an arts teacher degree dies in the war, leaving three orphaned kids. These were people who obviously had plans, ambitions, and wanted to do something with their lives.”


Another of Vyushkova’s discoveries when she was looking into Buryat soldiers’ deaths was that the number of high-ranking Buryat officers killed in Ukraine was significantly lower than that of Russian officers overall – one indication of systemic discrimination against Buryats in the military.

“One of our volunteers was in the army,” Vyushkova said. “He told me that in the army, there was even more racial discrimination than in other spheres of life in Russia. ‘They simply will not let you climb up the ranks,’ is what he said.”


Discrimination against Buryats is not something confined to the Armed Forces.


Garmazhapova said she never felt safe using the St. Petersburg metro because people could become aggressive. “The weirdest part is that you get used to it,” she said.


And the deputy head of the Free Buryatia Foundation Viktoria Maladaeva, received hundreds of insults and threats because of her ethnicity when she won the 2014 Mrs. St. Petersburg beauty pageant.


“Living in Moscow and St. Petersburg, we encountered racism on a daily basis,” said Garmazhapova, which is why she has been particularly angered by Russian claims to be “de-nazifying” Ukraine.


“One of our volunteers was beaten up in the streets, the other was bullied at school in Moscow and had to go back to Buryatia. We know that the first country that needs denazification is Russia itself,” she said.

‘This War Is a Vampire’: Buryat Activists Protest Ukraine Invasion - The Moscow Times

[misskit]

Canada intends to transfer seized Russian assets to rebuild Ukraine, compensate to victims


Canadian Foreign Affairs Minister Mélanie Joly has said the federal government of Canada will change its sanctions law to allow seized and sanctioned foreign assets to be redistributed as compensation to victims or to help in rebuilding a foreign state from war, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC) has reported.


"Today, we are seeking the capacity to not only seize but to allow for the forfeiture of the assets of sanctioned individuals and entities and to allow us to compensate victims with the proceeds… These changes would make Canada's sanctions regime the first in the G7 to allow these actions," Joly said in a statement on Tuesday.


The CBC said that Canada is among a number of countries to have imposed sanctions on Russia after it invaded Ukraine on February 24. The changes that Canada aims to bring to its sanctions law will mean that funds or property seized from Russia could be paid out to help rebuild Ukraine or go to those affected by Russia's invasion.


The text of the bill says the seized assets can be used for "the reconstruction of the foreign state adversely affected by a grave breach of international peace and security." The funds could also be used for "the restoration of international peace and security" and to compensate victims when that security is breached.


A similar bill that would allow Canada to seize and confiscate Russian assets for the purpose of supporting victims of Russian attacks was already tabled by Sen. Ratna Omidvar and is poised to be approved by the upper chamber.


According to the CBC, the Ukrainian Embassy to Canada has urged lawmakers to quickly enact Omidvar's bill. "We believe it is absolutely fair that Russian state property or ill-gotten assets of Russian oligarchs must become a part of reparations by the aggressor state to the victim of the aggression... By passing the Bill S-217 Canada will demonstrate leadership and could set an example for others to follow and show that the Russian kleptocratic corrupt regime will pay the full cost of its crimes against Ukraine," the embassy said in a statement.


https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/827545.html

[Troy]

My hunch though is that none of these will ever be delivered.

The Swiss, who manufactured the cannons and their ammunition, have seen to that:
Neutral Switzerland has vetoed the re-export of Swiss-made ammunition used in Gepard anti-aircraft tanks that Germany is sending to Ukraine, the government said on Tuesday. Germany earlier announced its first delivery of heavy weapons to Ukraine to help it fend off Russian attacks following weeks of pressure at home and abroad to do so.
The Swiss State Secretariat for Economic Affairs (SECO) confirmed a report by broadcaster SRF that it had blocked Germany from sending munitions for the Gepard tank to Ukraine.

There are other countries that have the Gepard that use non Swiss ammo so it can be bought from them.

It isn't a tank, it's a SAAG sat on a Leopard 1 tank chassis, and is very potent against low level aircraft. Remember that Russia has been having to fly low level to avoid the Ukraine mid and high level air defence systems.

Although it may take some time for fresh recruits to train on the system, it takes less time to convert, and in times of war it takes even less time...



Carry on...

[Backspin]

It's looking more likely that the Ukraine government will be decapitated. Cruise missiles into govt buildings , Iraq war style .

[misskit]

^ What makes you think this is more likely? You reckon they will do cruise missiles into government buildings when the U.N.’ Gutierrez is there or wait until there are no visiting dignitaries?

[misskit]

Moscow threatens to hit Kyiv with long-range missiles if it attacks Russian soil

Moscow once again threatened to attack Kyiv if Ukraine targeted troop supply lines in Russia, saying it will "retaliate with long-range smart weapons."


The threat came Tuesday evening after U.K. Defense Minister James Heappey said hitting Russian logistics was a "legitimate" part of war as Russian forces continue a second assault in eastern and southern Ukraine.

"It is entirely legitimate to go after targets in the depth of your opponents to disrupt their logistics and supply lines," he said in a BBC Radio interview.


But the Kremlin, which has accused NATO of fighting a proxy war against Russia, said it would strike Ukraine’s capital if its forces were touched on its soil.


"We would like to stress that London’s direct instigation of the regime in Kyiv to commit such actions, should these attempts materialize, will instantly entail our proportionate response," the Russia defense ministry said in a statement, according to Russian state-owned media. "As we have warned, the Russian armed forces are ready round the clock to carry out retaliatory strikes with long-range smart weapons against decision-making centers in Kyiv."


The defense ministry further warned that it would have no qualms hitting Western officials who happen to be in Kyiv providing it with assistance.


"The subjects of one of the Western countries, present at the Ukrainian decision-making centers in Kyiv in the capacity of advisers, will not necessarily constitute a problem for Russia in making a decision to retaliate," the ministry added.


The comments come two days after U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin met with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy in Kyiv.

The trip was the highest-level American visit to Ukraine since the war began more than 60 days ago.


Multiple blasts were reported at a Russian ammunition depot in the Belgorod region and Russia claimed to have intercepted drones in two other border regions Wednesday.


Russia has previously accused Ukraine of hitting cross-border targets, but Kyiv has not taken responsibility for any such attacks.


Though Ukrainian presidential adviser Mykhailo Podolyak called the Wednesday blasts "karma."

"If you decide to massively attack another country, massively kill everyone there, massively crush peaceful people with tanks, and use warehouses in your regions to enable the killings, then sooner or later the debts will have to be repaid," he said.


NATO allies this week renewed pledges to continue arming and aiding Ukraine as it prepares for what defense officials have warned will be a brutal second offensive by Russian forces.

Moscow threatens to hit Kyiv with long-range missiles if it attacks Russian soil | Fox News

[sabang]

A reasonably sober opinion from the Guardian-


It follows that supporting Ukraine is the right thing to do. But it is not at all clear that the kind of support we are giving (and not giving) is the right way to go about preserving the Ukrainian nation.

The longer this war rages on, the more Ukrainians will flee their homeland, and the more devastation will be wrought upon their homes, cities, industry and economy. Yet the west’s current approach of supporting Ukraine’s war aim of defeating the aggressor, and providing arms for that purpose while pointedly avoiding direct military intervention, is guaranteed to prolong the war. Russia’s progress may be slowed, but it’s highly unlikely to be stopped, far less pushed out of Ukraine, and in the meantime the grinding destruction and hideous war crimes will continue.

No day goes past without some senior western politician proclaiming that Ukraine will be “successful” and that Russia is “failing”. This is certainly morale-boosting. But it is clearly nonsense.

The fact is, day by day, more towns and cities are destroyed and then fall to the Russians. In two months, the area under Russian control – originally just the breakaway parts of Donbas – has grown to perhaps five times the size. If Russia continues to suffer “defeats” at this pace, then in another two months the entire south of Ukraine will be in ruins, cities such as Odesa will resemble Mariupol, and thousands upon thousands more Ukrainians will have died.

Worse, as the war goes on, and more towns are destroyed, it becomes less likely that Ukrainians who have fled to other countries will ever return, because they will have no homes or workplaces to come back to. How many citizens of Mariupol will ever return? If Russia’s aim was to exterminate the Ukrainian nation, then the west’s approach is helping to do just that.

Surely, if the lives of Ukrainian people are our concern then the west has to do something to stop the war – now. Encouraging the Ukrainians to continue, however just their cause, is merely making their country uninhabitable.

The trouble is, there are only two ways to stop the war quickly, and neither is palatable to most western leaders.

One would be for Nato to enter the war and make a quick, massive and decisive strike to cripple Russia’s invasion forces. Unlike with Russia’s actions, it would have every right under international law to do so. When Putin intervened in Syria, he very carefully framed this as a response to a request from Syria’s legitimate and internationally recognised government. The west could do the same in Ukraine. Putin himself has no such justification for his invasion.

The risk involved in this – of a third world war – is obvious, and it’s why the west refuses to intervene directly.

The other option is to persuade Putin to implement an immediate ceasefire, by inviting Russia to comprehensive peace talks. Western leaders are disinclined to parley with a butcher such as Putin. But they did it with Serbia’s Slobodan Milošević, only months after the massacre at Srebrenica, and the result was the Dayton agreement that put an end to the war in Bosnia in 1995.

To get Putin to the negotiating table at all, everything would have to be up for discussion – including Ukraine’s borders, Russia’s age-old security concerns, perhaps even the very logic of basing today’s international frontiers in that part of Europe on what were internal borders in the USSR, drawn up by communist leaders precisely to prevent Soviet republics and regions from being viable independent states. The outcome of the talks does not need to be predetermined. The important thing is to talk rather than fight.

Western leaders cannot bring themselves to broach these matters, which would seem to reward Putin for attempting to redraw the map by force. They would rather fight – or more accurately, let Ukraine fight, in the hope of defeating Russia. But if one thing is certain it is that Putin will never accept defeat. He is already too deeply invested in this war to back off with nothing to show for it. If western leaders think that their arms-length encouragement of Ukraine will bring about a Ukrainian military victory, then they are fatally misreading Putin’s intentions and resolve. For Ukraine’s sake, we need to stop him now, one way or the other, before nothing is left of the country we want to protect.

• Angus Roxburgh is a former BBC Moscow correspondent and the author of Moscow Calling: Memoirs of a Foreign Correspondent
  
  Ukraine can’t win this war – we must consider Putin’s terms for making peace (msn.com)

I don't really know if Peace, or at least a cessation of hostilities is achievable at this stage (Putin certainly seems in no hurry), but I do think we should be giving it a chance, which seems to be the opposite of the current approach. What would it take to end this war, and what will be the economic and social costs- particularly in Europe- if it grinds on interminably?

[Norton]

If western leaders think that their arms-length encouragement of Ukraine will bring about a Ukrainian military victory, then they are fatally misreading Putin’s intentions and resolve.

Putin has made his intentions very clear. Convert the entire nation of the Ukraine into a pro Russian state by doing whatever necessary. Short of agreeing to this via peace negotiations is not going to happen as long as Putin is calling thr shots.

One would be for Nato to enter the war and make a quick, massive and decisive strike to cripple Russia’s invasion forces. Unlike with Russia’s actions, it would have every right under international law to do so. When Putin intervened in Syria, he very carefully framed this as a response to a request from Syria’s legitimate and internationally recognised government. The west could do the same in Ukraine. Putin himself has no such justification for his invasion.

The only option that will bring the suffering in the Ukraine to the quickest end.

The risk involved in this – of a third world war – is obvious, and it’s why the west refuses to intervene directly.

It does and Putin relies on the fear to allow him to get away with whatever he wants to do to achieve his stated goal in the Ukraine.

[sabang]

Do you think he has ambitions on the whole of Ukraine norts? I don't personally, but it may be that he wants to leave it as a 'rump state', cut off from the sea- and I do not believe a peace could be arrived at on that basis.

[Switch]

^ What makes you think this is more likely? You reckon they will do cruise missiles into government buildings when the U.N.’ Gutierrez is there or wait until there are no visiting dignitaries?

Socal needs these posts to maintain his reputation as a warmonger. The thoughts of Ukrainians suffering horrible deaths let’s him sleep at night. He is geographically removed from harm by watching slash and burn Russian propaganda video from others like him. Their blogs have single figures support and subscriptions, but that doesn’t bother him. He lives for the death of others no matter how poorly it might be portrayed.

[Switch]

NATO could be waiting for intel about Russian weak spots as Putin scours the homeland for more troops.

Destroying Russian infrastructure at home will make him sit up and pay attention. Putin sits in Moscow with his delusions. That is the last place he expects an attack.

[Hugh Cow]

Nato needs to go in and quickly take over the fight in Ukraine. The alternative is to allow Putin to have his objectives by force of war. That sets a dangerous precedent with China and other dictatorships and oppressive regimes. Then what is to stop Putin in Georgia and Moldova? Inaction because of another Russian threat?
Shades of Hitler and the Wests early aquiesence which did nothing to halt his ambitions. Russia is incapable of attacking the west and defending its territory stolen from Ukraine. I doubt this would happen. The Germans have been dragged kicking and screaming into helping Ukraine and are still filling Putins coffers with blood money from oil and gas.

[harrybarracuda]

A reasonably sober opinion from the Guardian-

A pile of apologist shit that essentially suggests Putin should come out of committing these atrocities with a win.

[NamPikToot]

Do you think he has ambitions on the whole of Ukraine norts? I don't personally, but it may be that he wants to leave it as a 'rump state', cut off from the sea- and I do not believe a peace could be arrived at on that basis.

I think he did until he realised quite how unprepared his exped force was for the resistance they met, now he's settling for the east and will happily keep taking pot shots at the rest of Ukraine using their resistance as justification to do so. Its not at all clear what he'll do once he secures the eastern territory.

One thing is certain, this may have reinvigorated NATO but Putin now knows how poor is outmoded (WWII) strategy is against more modern theatre tech and how poorly trained and commanded his forces are - that means he'll invest heavily in upgrading and that in the face of a perceived increase in NATO threat suggests we are in for well over a decade of cold war stand off around Europe.

Its amazing how quickly the situation changes and how we can find ourselves back where we were 60 years ago, although as has been mentioned frequently and with hindsight the writing was on the wall in 2014 and we've been sleepwalking into this for the past 7 years.