Thread: Trump to announce Jerusalem as capital of Israel

Originally Posted by Norton

Ancient history is irrelevant.

Ancient history colours every single aspect of this conflict and will never, ever be irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Klondyke

Not to forget the few ships coming under the guise of international humanitarian help (for Gaza people) but recognized as supplying WMD (such as hammers, nails, etc), so had to be trapped, some of the crew shot...

Crayons, nutmeg, cinnamon, cardamom, ginger, chocolate, children's books....and the list goes on of things Israel prohibits getting into Gaza "for security reasons".
As you can see (if you google it) , the list is mainly about oppression and disheartening the Palestinians. Yeah, for security reasons we prohibit chocolate because don't forget the great chocolate bomb of '78! You can make rockets with ginger, and corriander can be used to support tunnels.
Lets bomb the city and demolish hundreds of houses, then prohibit cement and wood for rebuilding.

Fluke...what do you have to say about this aspect of Israeli persecution of Palestinians?

Originally Posted by Maanaam

Crayons, nutmeg, cinnamon, cardamom, ginger, chocolate, children's books....and the list goes on of things Israel prohibits getting into Gaza "for security reasons".
As you can see (if you google it) , the list is mainly about oppression and disheartening the Palestinians. Yeah, for security reasons we prohibit chocolate because don't forget the great chocolate bomb of '78! You can make rockets with ginger, and corriander can be used to support tunnels.
Lets bomb the city and demolish hundreds of houses, then prohibit cement and wood for rebuilding.

Fluke...what do you have to say about this aspect of Israeli persecution of Palestinians?

I wasnt going to comment at all , its quite funny to see you and Harry and a few others getting more and more extreme with your false allegations , but, as you did ask .
The import restrictions are also enforced by Egypt as well , along the Gaza/Egypt border and the list of things that you stated that are banned is incorrect .
Import restrictions were lifted in 2010 by Israel and here is a list of the things that are now restricted

On June 17, 2010, the Israel cabinet agreed to ease the restrictions on items permitted into the Gaza strip.
Items Subject to Specific Permission
1. Arms and Munitions: forbidden transfer under all circumstances across Israel's frontiers without specific permits - as defined in the Control of Exports Security Order (Arms and Munitions) 5768-2008, and in the Control of Exports Security Order (Missile Equipment) 5768-2008.
2. Dual Use goods and items: liable to be used, side by side with their civilian purposes, for the development, production, installation or enhancement of military capabilities and terrorist capacities. This list comprises:
Items listed under the Wassenaar Arrangement: As specified in the updated (2008) "Wassenaar Arrangement on Export Controls for Arms and Dual Use Goods and Technologies - List of Dual Use Goods and Technologies and Munitions List."
Items whose entry into the PA Areas is controlled based on Israeli legislation: i.e. materials and equipment liable to be used for terror attacks and technology that could be used by terrorists - as defined in the Control of Exports Security Order (Controlled Dual Use Equipment Transferred to the PA Areas) 5768-2008 and in Orders of the OC Central Command.
These lists include, in detail, a range of chemicals used in the production of explosives (including certain fertilizers); specific types of metal profiles; ball bearings; lathes and their parts; composite materials; hunting knives and machetes; optical equipment, such as lasers and night vision goggles; certain navigation aides; diving equipment; parachutes, gliders and other nonmotorized airborne vehicles; flares and fireworks; avionics and flight control equipment; missile related computer technologies; rock drills and equipment drawing water from excavated sites. Items not necessarily included in the lists above but whose entry into Gaza is controlled, as detailed below:
i. Items and chemicals which could be used in the production of high trajectory weapons (rockets and mortars) by Hamas and other terror groups in Gaza - Fertilizers or other mixtures - specifically containing KCl at more than 5%; Epoxy and Vinyl Ester resins; Hardeners for Epoxy Resins containing Amides or Amines; Accelerators for Vinyl Esters; HTPB; Water purification solutions at concentrations higher than 11%.
ii. Items used as raw materials for improving protection for terror activists - Fibers or woven fabrics containing Carbon or Glass variants.
iii. Vessels.
List No. 2: Construction Items and Materials to be Allowed Entry into Gaza only for PA-authorized Projects Implemented by the International Community
Israel will only permit their entry into Gaza to facilitate construction projects in Gaza which have been authorized by the PA and implemented and monitored by the international community. The often cited reason is that such materials could be used by Hamas for military purposes (building bunkers, fortifying positions and digging tunnels)
This list includes:

• Portland cement and lime (in bulk, bags or barrels)
• Natural and Quarry aggregates and all varieties of gravel
• Ready concrete
• Precast concrete elements and products
• Steel elements and/or construction products
• Iron for foundations and columns, at any diameter (including wielded steel nets)
• Steel cables of any width
• Forms for construction elements (plastics or galvanized iron)
• Industrialized forms for casting concrete
• Plastic or composite beams more than 4 mm thick
• Thermal isolation materials and products
• Blocs (at any width) - Concrete; Silicate; Ytong or its equivalent; or gypsum
• Materials and products for sealing structures
• Asphalt and its components (Bitumen, emulsion) in aggregate or packaged
• Steel elements or framing products for construction
• Cast concrete elements and products for drainage over 1 m in diameter
• Precast units and sea-borne containers
• Vehicles, excluding private cars and including 4X4 vehicles and other categories of motor vehicles liable to be used in terror activities
• Lumber beams and boards more than 2 cm thick, (liable to be used in "offensive" tunneling aimed at penetrating Israeli territory), unless incorporated in finished products
• Specific procedures, on a case by case basis, will be established so as to permit the transfer of such lumber for other purposes in Gaza.

False allegations? But what we say is true.

As for your list, is it complete? No. Because the Israelis don't always itemise, but categorise, for example "communications equipment" is a category, so no phones, no speakers, no microphones no radios, no televisions etc etc.
Currently there are 8500 items listed as "dual use" that are applied for but yet to be approved. Oppression much?
Cement is needed to build houses. Not allowed.
Hey, the import of chickpeas was not allowed until 2007 and only after international outrage.
As for my list, why did the Israelis prohibit cinnamon and kids books (and all the rest) up till 7 years ago? (according to you and assuming your list is correct and complete and the items are still not prohibited?).
I'm vague here because Israel is cagey about being public on what it restricts (international outrage and all). It seems like a current and complete list of prohibited items is not available. Importers find out when their goods reach the border.

For the sake of the discussion, lets take your 2010 items as current and complete (which it's not). Can you, Fluke, offer an explanation as to why most Middle East condiments and children's education materials were prohibited?

Originally Posted by Maanaam

False allegations? But what we say is true.

As for your list, is it complete? No. Because the Israelis don't always itemise, but categorise, for example "communications equipment" is a category, so no phones, no speakers, no microphones no radios, no televisions etc etc.
Currently there are 8500 items listed as "dual use" that are applied for but yet to be approved. Oppression much?
Cement is needed to build houses. Not allowed.
Hey, the import of chickpeas was not allowed until 2007 and only after international outrage.
As for my list, why did the Israelis prohibit cinnamon and kids books (and all the rest) up till 7 years ago? (according to you and assuming your list is correct and complete and the items are still not prohibited?).
I'm vague here because Israel is cagey about being public on what it restricts (international outrage and all). It seems like a current and complete list of prohibited items is not available. Importers find out when their goods reach the border.

For the sake of the discussion, lets take your 2010 items as current and complete (which it's not). Can you, Fluke, offer an explanation as to why most Middle East condiments and children's education materials were prohibited?

Once again, you are making things up, the things that you say that have been banned were not actually banned .Phones, TVs microphones were not banned and chocolate wasnt banned , it was just restricted to certain people who could import it .
Children's educational materials were also not banned, although you will use crayons to denote them as being educational materials
If crayons were banned , that would be enough for you to claim that ALL childrens educational materials were banned

Originally Posted by Maanaam

So what, that doesn't give European Jews the right to take over land where indigenous people live, and have lived for thousands of years.

Hey, I never did say Jewish history in the region gives them the right to occupy that land, just injecting some factual relevance that often gets lost when people use a one-sided historical connection; in this respect it is as Jewish as it is Arab/Muslim. And I make no distinction between European or Sefardi Jews, which seems to matter to whoever brought it up a few posts back.

Lets say my gt gt gt grandfather converted to Zoroastriansim. Does that give me and my kids a right to a section of Iran, even though we have never been there, and neither has my dad, his dad before him nor any of our ancestors that we can reliably trace. No, it's a preposterous idea and I'm sure the Iranians would scoff at it.

So what gives Europen Jews the right to occupy Palestine based on their religion and intangible claims to ancestry?

Nothing to argue, you said it.

And no surprise, the poor soul that either has no opinion or is too anal to share it, has this weird compulsion to show he exists via repos; whatcha say, Neverna, does that accurately describe you? Grow a spine, man up and disagree in public.

Originally Posted by Norton

Ancient history is irrelevant. The UN partition making Palestine into a zone for the Arabs and a zone for the Jews (Israel) is the one in place today. The Jews accepted the agreement the Arabs did not and shortly after attacked Israel and took a wuppin.

Really a dumb move on the Arabs part. Motivated no doubt by religious differences. Had they accepted UN resolution 181 back in 1947 by now Palestine would be a nation rather than what it is now. A place of constant strife with incompetent leaders who still refuse to acknowlege Israel as a legitimate state and in turn Israeli bogus territorial expansion in the name of "security".

Far from a Trump fan and well know his declaration of Jerusalem as the capital was done for domestic political reasons, the impact on Israel/Palestine peace has little impact.

Peace will come only when Arabs accept Israel and the UN comes down hard on illegal Israeli expansion and occupation of Palestinian territory.

Fat chance as long as US has veto power.

Well put, nothing wrong with being critical of your own team, the greatest enemy of the Arab/Pals is not Israel but their own leaders. They could have had what they purport to want, peace and prosperity, generations ago and without continuous strife and the loss of countless thousands of lives.

Originally Posted by jabir

And no surprise, the poor soul that either has no opinion or is too anal to share it, has this weird compulsion to show he exists via repos; whatcha say, Neverna, does that accurately describe you? Grow a spine, man up and disagree in public.

Neverna also does that to me, he doesnt reply much on forums, just sends me a red every few days with a few words of abuse

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Straight out of the four by two playbook.

They build schools and hospitals, they build agriculture and factories. Then the four by twos say they are terrorist hideouts and blow them up.

It's a great vicious circle. Terrorise them into retaliating then go "OOH OOH LOOK THEY'RE TERRORISTS!".

Not sure if you're baiting or serious, but what schools and hospitals, agriculture and factories are you talking about? The ones I know were paid for and built and maintained by UNRWA, Europe and the US; it's a very big tit.

There are two ways to go, either genuine long term peace which will benefit both sides, or attrition until a fatal blow to Israel can somehow be delivered at some future time even if it means sacrificing many or most or all Palestinians in the process.

We could discuss it forever and never agree, so I'm going with the latter because I believe this is the ultimate goal; neither side will swing the other, so pointless squabbling. But if I am wrong and the end goal is true and permanent peace which directly contradicts the core principles of Islam, then as I said before this can only be achieved by starting the demolition process at the top layer of leaders and working down.

Originally Posted by Fluke

Neverna also does that to me, he doesnt reply much on forums, just sends me a red every few days with a few words of abuse

Gives him purpose, I suppose, poor obsessive thing, sent me a string of reds over 7 months when I wasn't even active on the board.

Prince Turki al Faisal: No, Mr. Trump, Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed...215-story.html





Prince Turki al Faisal of Saudi Arabia is a former ambassador to the United States and Britain.

Originally Posted by jabir

Gives him purpose, I suppose, poor obsessive thing, sent me a string of reds over 7 months when I wasn't even active on the board.

Ageing One hasn't sent me a red yet this week , Im getting a bit worried about him.
Could someone go and check-up on him, make sure that hes OK

Originally Posted by Norton

If ancient history was to rule there would never be a settlement.

This is an Arab (muslim) vs Israel (jew) issue that needs to be sorted between the two.

Unfortunately, ancient myth & history are an essential part of their identity, specially for Israel, and negotiation positions are based on that.

Originally Posted by jabir

Not sure if you're baiting or serious, but what schools and hospitals, agriculture and factories are you talking about? The ones I know were paid for and built and maintained by UNRWA, Europe and the US; it's a very big tit.

There are two ways to go, either genuine long term peace which will benefit both sides, or attrition until a fatal blow to Israel can somehow be delivered at some future time even if it means sacrificing many or most or all Palestinians in the process.

We could discuss it forever and never agree, so I'm going with the latter because I believe this is the ultimate goal; neither side will swing the other, so pointless squabbling. But if I am wrong and the end goal is true and permanent peace which directly contradicts the core principles of Islam, then as I said before this can only be achieved by starting the demolition process at the top layer of leaders and working down.

Well for a start most of the reconstruction (and it's usually REconstruction) is paid for by the GCC.

And as for peace "contradicting the core values of Islam", that's just pathetic.

It's like saying smiting is the core value of Christianity.

But you are right, neither side will swing the other. However, as I said, any time there is progress in negotiation, Israel sabotages it.

It's time the US stopped them sucking on its tit, to use your vernacular, and made the handouts conditional on their undoing the expanisionism. Perhaps they then might be more amenable to giving back what they keep stealing.

Originally Posted by jabir

Gives him purpose, I suppose, poor obsessive thing, sent me a string of reds over 7 months when I wasn't even active on the board.

But when I send you reds when you're active, you whinge. Grow a spine, jabir-the-fake.

And by the way, I sent your other nic some greens. You didn't complain about them. Odd (you).

Originally Posted by Fluke

Neverna also does that to me, he doesnt reply much on forums, just sends me a red every few days with a few words of abuse

Ant Ronbertson does that to Me as well.

Yeah, yeah, and I get 2 reds a week from Lulu, regular as clockwork, ever since I joined. So fckukcing what.
Including on this thread.
So, Israel......

Originally Posted by Neverna

But when I send you reds when you're active, you whinge. Grow a spine, jabir-the-fake.

Brilliant and expected. Hey Neverna, sad thing that needs to be noticed, do you have an opinion? On anything? I mean, >12k posts suggests you mean something, to someone, somehow, occasionally, maybe.

But seriously, do you feel a surge of power (or consequence) to repo posters that are inactive for so long that one might reasonable guess (or hope in your case) they have left the board?

And by the way, I sent your other nic some greens. You didn't complain about them. Odd (you).

Pray tell which, I have so many.

Originally Posted by stroller

Unfortunately, ancient myth & history are an essential part of their identity, specially for Israel, and negotiation positions are based on that.

I have no problem with playing the history game for propaganda purposes, that happens all the time, but adding a bit of reality might help reach a starting position for negotiations.

For example, al-Habbash (Abbas adviser and chairman of the Supreme Council for Sharia Justice) recently made the ludicrous claim that Jerusalem has belonged to the Palestinians for 5,000 years. Does anyone believe or know anyone that's at risk of believing such crap?

So as Manaam and others have said, legitimate Jewish claims of historical connection do not give them a right to steal land. Then why should rubbish claims of Palestinian historical connections (ie, 5k years) give them any greater rights to the land - based on those claims?

People do notice absurd one-sidedness, and those that don't are hardly worthy of making great historical decisions.

Originally Posted by Fluke

Ageing One hasn't sent me a red yet this week , Im getting a bit worried about him.
Could someone go and check-up on him, make sure that hes OK

Neverna has sent me three reds in a week and hasnt spoken to me on forums , I guess that hes the shy silent type without much to say for himself .
As I havent sent Neverna any reds , heres a few red words . fukkin twat, bollcks , LOL idiot .Sorry about not being able to send rep .

Originally Posted by Fluke;3681004
As I havent sent Neverna any reds , heres a few red words .[COLOR=#ff0000

fukkin twat, bollcks , LOL idiot .Sorry about not being able to send rep .[/COLOR]

Liar. You have sent me two recently. But anyway, there's a thread for that. This is about Trump announcing Jerusalem as capital of Israel.

Originally Posted by Neverna

Liar. You have sent me two recently. But anyway, there's a thread for that. This is about Trump announcing Jerusalem as capital of Israel.

I did mean in reply to the three reds that you sent me this week .
I did play sending repo for a while , but I got bored of it , rather silly really .
When is my next red due , scheduled for Wednesday ?

Reds is for pooves.

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Reds is for pooves.

For sure, I don't remember ever sending one though god knows how many deserve to be buried in them.