Thread: Trump to announce Jerusalem as capital of Israel

Originally Posted by jabir

Haven't been following the past few days, but as the UN is responsible for this aspect of international law isn't it also the only organ that can officially and legally recognise Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital, or 'future' capital?

Against this would be facts that they have no internationally recognised state as such, and the certainty of a US veto.

No, the UN is not the organ. A country declares it's own capital and that's that. Decalring a country a country is the UN's legal right though.
You're missing the important bits: East Jerusalem was never part of the declared Israeli state. Israel has always had ambitions to "have" it, and occupied E. Jerusalem, but since it's such a contentious issue, has not thus far dared to declare it as a capital, only aspirations of it.
International law and the Geneva Convention forbid occupying forces to settle in occupied land, so E. Jerusalem can never be Israel (despite Israel thumbing it's nose to those laws and conventions for the past 50 years and building settlements).

^

Originally Posted by Maanaam

You're missing the important bits: East Jerusalem was never part of the declared Israeli state. Israel has always had ambitions to "have" it, and occupied E. Jerusalem, but since it's such a contentious issue, has not thus far dared to declare it as a capital, only aspirations of it.
International law and the Geneva Convention forbid occupying forces to settle in occupied land, so E. Jerusalem can never be Israel (despite Israel thumbing it's nose to those laws and conventions for the past 50 years and building settlements).

The reality of this situation is pretty well shown in DW documentary as I advised above, worth to see it:
The other Jerusalem | All media content | DW | 12.12.2017

(even if the Germans are very careful to criticize the Israel)

Originally Posted by Maanaam

No, the UN is not the organ. A country declares it's own capital and that's that. Decalring a country a country is the UN's legal right though.
You're missing the important bits: East Jerusalem was never part of the declared Israeli state. Israel has always had ambitions to "have" it, and occupied E. Jerusalem, but since it's such a contentious issue, has not thus far dared to declare it as a capital, only aspirations of it.
International law and the Geneva Convention forbid occupying forces to settle in occupied land, so E. Jerusalem can never be Israel (despite Israel thumbing it's nose to those laws and conventions for the past 50 years and building settlements).

Sure a country chooses it's own capital, but Palestine is not a country and the PA capital is Ramallah.

Israel has made it clear several times that right of return, 67 borders and a divided Jerusalem are non-negotiable, even in talks without preconditions.

Against this would be facts that they have no internationally recognised state as such,

Yes, they do.

As of 14 September 2015, 136 (7001705000000000000♠70.5%) of the 193 member states of the United Nations and two non-member states have recognized the State of Palestine. Many of the countries that do not recognize the State of Palestine nevertheless recognize the PLO as the "representative of the Palestinian people". On 29 November 2012, the UN General Assembly passed a motion changing Palestine's "entity" status to "non-member observer state" by a vote of 138 to 9, with 41 abstentions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern...e_of_Palestine

A "non-member observer state" status with the UN is exactly the same as the status of Taiwan & The Vatican.

The British Parliament also voted by an overwhelming majority to recognize Palestine- yet strangely enough, it still hasn't happened. Is this Democracy at work?

the certainty of a US veto.

That goes without saying, and frankly grows more irrelevant with every passing year. As does the US.

Originally Posted by sabang

Yes, they do.

As of 14 September 2015, 136 (7001705000000000000♠70.5%) of the 193 member states of the United Nations and two non-member states have recognized the State of Palestine. Many of the countries that do not recognize the State of Palestine nevertheless recognize the PLO as the "representative of the Palestinian people". On 29 November 2012, the UN General Assembly passed a motion changing Palestine's "entity" status to "non-member observer state" by a vote of 138 to 9, with 41 abstentions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern...e_of_Palestine

A "non-member observer state" status with the UN is exactly the same as the status of Taiwan & The Vatican.

The British Parliament also voted by an overwhelming majority to recognize Palestine- yet strangely enough, it still hasn't happened. Is this Democracy at work?


That goes without saying, and frankly grows more irrelevant with every passing year. As does the US.

An impressive testimony to the democratic process. I haven't seen the list so I don't know who voted how, but my guess is that the OIC block voted, so we start with 56 of those 138 votes right there, with the balance coming from rogue and Mickey Mouse states that were bought off cheap. Could argue a vote is a vote even if was bought or rented. But pointless, because I would also guess the A-team abstained. And if they didn't get full recognition under Obama it's a bit ambitious to make noises under Trump.

While the Palestinians have the beginnings of a viable nation with a population united by common descent, history, culture and language, that's not enough. Also needed is UN membership under one government, which includes a constitution by any name, an anthem, flag, currency, DC, defence force and other trimmings of statehood; some are in place and others are details to work on, but if those aspiring to statehood wish to be taken seriously by anyone outside the Muslim world they also need to wean off the welfare tit and start earning. And don't herd me down the refugee route.

You can't have sovereignty just because you want it.

Originally Posted by jabir

An impressive testimony to the democratic process. I haven't seen the list so I don't know who voted how, but my guess is that the OIC block voted, so we start with 56 of those 138 votes right there, with the balance coming from rogue and Mickey Mouse states that were bought off cheap. Could argue a vote is a vote even if was bought or rented. But pointless, because I would also guess the A-team abstained. And if they didn't get full recognition under Obama it's a bit ambitious to make noises under Trump.

While the Palestinians have the beginnings of a viable nation with a population united by common descent, history, culture and language, that's not enough. Also needed is UN membership under one government, which includes a constitution by any name, an anthem, flag, currency, DC, defence force and other trimmings of statehood; some are in place and others are details to work on, but if those aspiring to statehood wish to be taken seriously by anyone outside the Muslim world they also need to wean off the welfare tit and start earning. And don't herd me down the refugee route.

You can't have sovereignty just because you want it.

I think you mean "You can't have anything because the four by twos want it".

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

I think you mean "You can't have anything because the four by twos want it".

If the Pals aspire to genuine peace and prosperity, side by side with Israel, it can only be achieved through sovereignty. Hands up all those who believe they do, won't be many.

If the Pals aspire to destroying Israel, it can still only be done as a sovereign neighbour, not by a few attacks here and there while the whole world can see its people are wilfully deprived of education and most other basics for a viable society.

Either way they need to get their act together, shake off the image of a thoroughly corrupt society governed by two thoroughly corrupt sets of leaders, and demonstrate that they are capable of running a state.


AQ faded to the IS because their plan was plain and simple jihad; they had no plan beyond jihad for the sake of jihad, whereas IS did their dd with infrastructure and trimmings. This is why desperate western leaders celebrate their great victory over the IS in a tiny region, whilst ignoring the fact that it remains a greater global threat than it was before said 'destruction', and that the 'kill zone' will never again be under the control of forces sympathetic to the west.

You are being lied to, and lap it up!

Originally Posted by jabir

If the Pals aspire to genuine peace and prosperity, side by side with Israel, it can only be achieved through sovereignty. Hands up all those who believe they do, won't be many.

If the Pals aspire to destroying Israel, it can still only be done as a sovereign neighbour, not by a few attacks here and there while the whole world can see its people are wilfully deprived of education and most other basics for a viable society.

Either way they need to get their act together, shake off the image of a thoroughly corrupt society governed by two thoroughly corrupt sets of leaders, and demonstrate that they are capable of running a state.


AQ faded to the IS because their plan was plain and simple jihad; they had no plan beyond jihad for the sake of jihad, whereas IS did their dd with infrastructure and trimmings. This is why desperate western leaders celebrate their great victory over the IS in a tiny region, whilst ignoring the fact that it remains a greater global threat than it was before said 'destruction', and that the 'kill zone' will never again be under the control of forces sympathetic to the west.

You are being lied to, and lap it up!

But you are ignoring the fact that *any* time the peace progress has made tangible progress, the blue suede shoes have gone out of their way to be antagonistic and fuck it up.

They want all that Mediterranean oil and gas for themselves.

Originally Posted by Fluke

The Jordanians left the area 50 years ago

Al Aqsa Mosque is under Hashemite guardianship.

Originally Posted by jabir

Israel has made it clear several times that right of return, 67 borders and a divided Jerusalem are non-negotiable, even in talks without preconditions.

?? Eh? That sounds like some very strong preconditions. What are you on about?
And why are Israeli preconditions above Palestinian ones, especially when Israeli preconditions involve breaching international law and the Geneva Convention?

Originally Posted by Maanaam

Al Aqsa Mosque is under Hashemite guardianship.




?? Eh? That sounds like some very strong preconditions. What are you on about?
And why are Israeli preconditions above Palestinian ones, especially when Israeli preconditions involve breaching international law and the Geneva Convention?

I didn't make the rules, that's the way it works. Both sides have preconditions in talks without preconditions. Part of the madness in our modern world.

Originally Posted by jabir

While the Palestinians have the beginnings of a viable nation with a population united by common descent, history, culture and language, that's not enough.

Any hint to specs what is "enough"? Enough what the 193 member states do possess?

Originally Posted by Klondyke

Any hint to specs what is "enough"? Enough what the 193 member states do possess?

"Enough" is five of 193 votes.

I haven't seen the list so I don't know who voted how, but my guess is that the OIC block voted, so we start with 56 of those 138 votes right there, with the balance coming from rogue and Mickey Mouse states that were bought off cheap. Could argue a vote is a vote even if was bought or rented. But pointless, because I would also guess the A-team abstained.

Really? The 'list', that you so asininely say was either bought off or is a rogue nation, includes the worlds three most populous nations- China, India & Indonesia. It includes the BRIC's. It includes Thailand. Obviously, it includes the UN too. It includes most of the world actually.

Just who was bought off? It certainly wasn't those countries in yellow- here, look for yourself.

Harry is a funny one rails against Russia vetoing all UN resolutions on Syria but quite content with the US vetoing all UN resolutions on Israel for as long as time exists.

Originally Posted by buriramboy

Harry is a funny one rails against Russia vetoing all UN resolutions on Syria but quite content with the US vetoing all UN resolutions on Israel for as long as time exists.

How on earth do you draw that conclusion?

FFS what an idiot.

Originally Posted by bsnub

Jeezus this thread devolved into a bozo fest.

Maybe it needs your intellectually calming influence Snubs.
No one would accuse me of muzzie love. In fact some would say if a muzzie was on fire I'd probably pull up a chair open a tinnie and roast a couple of snags. The truth in this one though is the red sea pedestrians have right royally shafted the Palestinians. I reckon blind Freddy ought to be able to see that. Being an expert on world affairs, my suggestion would be since our Deutcher friends caused all this hullabaloo by trying to get rid of the yids, they should just cut off a chunk of the old Deutchland, say maybe Rhineland seeing as they haven't had it back all that long anyway, so probably wouldn't miss it. Put a big fence around it so no one can get in or out chuck the Jews in and Bobs your uncle.. As an added bonus circumcise Trollers cheesy dick (probably need a microsurgeon) give him a prayer shawl and a skull cap and throw him over the fence so he cant get out. Two problems solved. No need to thank me.

^

Originally Posted by jabir
While the Palestinians have the beginnings of a viable nation with a population united by common descent, history, culture and language, that's not enough.

Originally Posted by Klondyke

Any hint to specs what is "enough"? Enough what the 193 member states do possess?

My question was to your statement that the Palestine does not have enough to become a UN member state.
So, what each of the 193 UN member states does possess what the Palestine does not?

Not ignoring that at all. But they get away with it because through the bluster those that matter can see the Pals are a bunch of unproductive, disorganised, disunited peasants living through generations off the welfare tit.

They have a chance to achieve sovereignty, which is worthless if it keeps the people as they are right under the thumb of corrupt despots, so imho it would be a leap forward if they were willing to sacrifice those pathetic leaders to reach that goal.

The other side survived 70 years not by being stupid, but by manipulating and exploiting facts on the ground.

Originally Posted by jabir

Not ignoring that at all. But they get away with it because through the bluster those that matter can see the Pals are a bunch of unproductive, disorganised, disunited peasants living through generations off the welfare tit.

They get away with it because the US protects Israel.

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

They get away with it because the US protects Israel.

Ah, right, not because the non-Muslim world can see through the bluster that the Pals through their leaders are a bunch of unproductive, disorganised, disunited peasants living through generations off the welfare tit.

Needs a major shake up that starts at the top, and from past form I doubt it would be bloodless.

Originally Posted by jabir

Ah, right, not because the non-Muslim world can see through the bluster that the Pals through their leaders are a bunch of unproductive, disorganised, disunited peasants living through generations off the welfare tit.

Straight out of the four by two playbook.

They build schools and hospitals, they build agriculture and factories. Then the four by twos say they are terrorist hideouts and blow them up.

It's a great vicious circle. Terrorise them into retaliating then go "OOH OOH LOOK THEY'RE TERRORISTS!".

Not to forget the few ships coming under the guise of international humanitarian help (for Gaza people) but recognized as supplying WMD (such as hammers, nails, etc), so had to be trapped, some of the crew shot...

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Straight out of the four by two playbook.

They build schools and hospitals, they build agriculture and factories. Then the four by twos say they are terrorist hideouts and blow them up.

It's a great vicious circle. Terrorise them into retaliating then go "OOH OOH LOOK THEY'RE TERRORISTS!".

Not sure if you're baiting or serious, but what schools and hospitals, agriculture and factories are you talking about? The ones I know were paid for and built and maintained by UNRWA, Europe and the US; it's a very big tit.

There are two ways to go, either genuine long term peace which will benefit both sides, or attrition until a fatal blow to Israel can somehow be delivered at some future time even if it means sacrificing many or most or all Palestinians in the process.

We could discuss it forever and never agree, so I'm going with the latter because I believe this is the ultimate goal; neither side will swing the other, so pointless squabbling. But if I am wrong and the end goal is true and permanent peace which directly contradicts the core principles of Islam, then as I said before this can only be achieved by starting the demolition process at the top layer of leaders and working down.

The other side survived 70 years not by being stupid

Seventy years pales into insignificance when you are Palestinian, who have continuously occupied their land throughout the millennia. I daresay they have encountered several Nakba in that considerable time. It is one of the longest continuous habitations in human history, if not the longest- for example, Jaffa is considered to be the longest continuously occupied urban environment in human history- only Aleppo in Syria has a competing claim.

Both places are considerably older than Jerusalem, which was already a thriving city by the standards of the time, long before the first Hebrew set eyes upon the place- it was founded by the Canaanites. It was also the capitol of the Kingdom of Jerusalem (larger than neo-Israel/ Palestine) for two centuries. Now, the Old City is divided into Armenian, Christian & Jewish quarters- and has been for a long time.

Only ever the capital of Israel?? Indivisible?? What a contemptible liar Bibi is, representative of the sort of people he represents. Incidentally, Samaria (land of the Samaritans) was not a part of ancient Israel either, which was in fact divided into two kingdoms of Judea & Israel. Jews can never agree upon themselves either.

Originally Posted by sabang

Seventy years pales into insignificance when you are Palestinian, who have continuously occupied their land throughout the millennia. I daresay they have encountered several Nakba in that considerable time. It is one of the longest continuous habitations in human history, if not the longest- for example, Jaffa is considered to be the longest continuously occupied urban environment in human history- only Aleppo in Syria has a competing claim.

Both places are considerably older than Jerusalem, which was already a thriving city by the standards of the time, long before the first Hebrew set eyes upon the place- it was founded by the Canaanites. It was also the capitol of the Kingdom of Jerusalem (larger than neo-Israel/ Palestine) for two centuries. Now, the Old City is divided into Armenian, Christian & Jewish quarters- and has been for a long time.

Only ever the capital of Israel?? Indivisible?? What a contemptible liar Bibi is, representative of the sort of people he represents. Incidentally, Samaria (land of the Samaritans) was not a part of ancient Israel either, which was in fact divided into two kingdoms of Judea & Israel. Jews can never agree upon themselves either.

What are you saying ?
All Muslims , Jews and Christians should give the land to the original inhabitants ?