Thread: Bali Executions

There should be a choice given,spend rest of days in prison,or you can become a guinea pig for pharma companies.

Originally Posted by ltnt

You may want to ask the parents of drug users if they feel anti-death penalty before you sign off on that one OkrRkr...pretty weak stand...Ever wonder how many die from "drug overdoses," daily?

Whose the murderer now?

This sweeping death rhetoric is pretty weak and inaccurate.
Let's be a bit more specific:
How many Indonesians have died through Cocaine overdoses in Bali during the last ten years?

Wooosh..., that's your argument for at least one execution gone.

How many overdoses from Heroin, Ecstacy and Meth? Do you even know, or are you advocating people's death out of ignorance?

Originally Posted by Horatio Hornblower

There should be a choice given,spend rest of days in prison,or you can become a guinea pig for pharma companies.

If inclined I'd let them 'volunteer' to fight ISIS. Them two Aussie blokes probably would have went for it.

Originally Posted by Necron99

Murder is a legal term. State executions don't meet the definition.

If I want legal assistance or terminology I'll ask my wife or her department/partners and not rely on anonymous contributors on a web-based forum . . . as for how I define something . . . really couldn't give a toss what your opinion is.

Originally Posted by Necron99

You can argue the death penalty is not a deterrent, but neither is prison.

Who is arguing deterrents? I haven't brought that issue up . . . or are you setting up a strawman argument?

Originally Posted by Necron99

Jails are full of career criminals who re-offend once released.

Did I mention anything about recidivism or release as such? No.
Yet again you are setting a scenario that has no relevance to my comment . . . why?

Originally Posted by Necron99

Why burden society with the cost of life without parole?

See point 1. Are you going suggest that those who abhor state-sanctioned murder then pay for the criminals' incarceration? Surely not . . . but then . . .

Originally Posted by OckerRocker

Originally Posted by Necron99

Murder is a legal term. State executions don't meet the definition.

If I want legal assistance or terminology I'll ask my wife or her department/partners and not rely on anonymous contributors on a web-based forum . . . as for how I define something . . . really couldn't give a toss what your opinion is.

If you don't care then why respond?

It's very easy, a state sanctioned judicial killing isn't murder, it's simple English.
Is English your first language? Or is it German?

You think using (incorrectly) an emotive term strengthens your position as per your usual form, and a grade six debating tactic.

"Murder" is the unlawful killing of people.

Using the term inappropriately often distorts an otherwise solid argument.

Originally Posted by ltnt

Originally Posted by OckerRocker

I still think it was wrong for the Indon gov't to murder these people . . . no-one has the right to do so.

You may want to ask the parents of drug users if they feel anti-death penalty before you sign off on that one OkrRkr...pretty weak stand...Ever wonder how many die from "drug overdoses," daily?

Whose the murderer now?

Never really thought about it that way. But now that I am I suppose I'd have a difficult time condemning a drug dealer for killing one of my sons via drug use. Nobody is forcing anyone to snort or inject that crap.

Have no idea what a fair punishment really should be for peddling drugs but the death penalty hardly seems appropriate.

Originally Posted by stroller

Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

Who cares in which nose the snow ends up in. It's effect on Indo society is undenyable. Or haven't you heard that "The effects of drug abuse are wide ranging and affect people of all ages".

It is relevant for this discussion.
If the coke was meant to be shipped to Iran or the M.E., as someone suggested, then it can't be true that the entire population of Indo are victims of this smuggling crime and are somehow 'avenged' by the execution, as you have claimed earlier.

These general arguments about victims and revenge through death are pretty inaccurate and weak when one looks into it.

Indo has its laws and the majority approves it. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time, simple as that. Bali belongs to Indo and the the tourist that want to escape to a beautifull vacation. Not some drug addicts runing wild. I don't think that I have to explain the collateral damages that drugs bring in to a society.
If yes, we have to open another thread.

Originally Posted by Storekeeper

Have no idea what a fair punishment really should be for peddling drugs but the death penalty hardly seems appropriate.

I agree. I think Luigi's idea is good. It's appropriate and poetic justice :

Originally Posted by Luigi

Actually they should have been pumped full of the stuff for 6 months and then locked in a cell without it so they could go through the withdrawal process, with it live on webcam for others thinking of getting involved in it.

Originally Posted by Necron99

If you don't care then why respond?

Are you stalking me now? You start immediately after I return on my Vietnam picture thread and continue.
I didn't ask to discuss anything with you - why do you follow me around . . . still insulting me with pre-pubescent methods?

Originally Posted by Necron99

It's very easy, a state sanctioned judicial killing isn't murder, it's simple English.

It is in my consideration - according to me it is. Nothing you say will change that.

I'll type slowly . . . I believe state-sanctioned killing to be just that - murder.

Easy.

Originally Posted by Necron99

Is English your first language? Or is it German?

Are you stalking me now? Getting personal?

I was jailed for 'stalking' and using 'family references' - which is what you're dong now. Will you be jailed?

Is English your first language? Or is it Bahasa? Come on now, spill the beans.

Originally Posted by Necron99

You think using (incorrectly) an emotive term strengthens your position as per your usual form, and a grade six debating tactic.

Being told that I am anything 'grade six' by someone whose education has been sub-par is quite ludicrous. Funny . . . but ludicrous.

It is my contention that state-sanctioned killings are murder. I am correct in my contention as it is my opinion.

The state has no right to murder its own citizens nor other citizens. That is my opinion. Extrajudicious killing is murder. Quite simple, really . . . simple enough for even you.

You do seem to be stalking me. Are you trying to goad me into an argument so that you can jail me again?

Insults. Personal references . . . Nice going Necron.

Originally Posted by stroller

"Murder" is the unlawful killing of people.

I agree.

Originally Posted by stroller

Using the term inappropriately often distorts an otherwise solid argument.

This is where we disagree. I do not believe that a state has the right to kill people. Ergo sum = it is murder in my eyes.

Whatever the legal verbiage is, is irrelevant. Killing someone is murder and just because a state says it's ok to murder someone doesn't make it right.

Apartheid was legal . . . didn't make it right.

The death penalty is legal in Indo. You may disapprove of the law, but the definition of the term "murder" does not depend on your opinion.

Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

Originally Posted by stroller

Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

Who cares in which nose the snow ends up in. It's effect on Indo society is undenyable. Or haven't you heard that "The effects of drug abuse are wide ranging and affect people of all ages".

It is relevant for this discussion.
If the coke was meant to be shipped to Iran or the M.E., as someone suggested, then it can't be true that the entire population of Indo are victims of this smuggling crime and are somehow 'avenged' by the execution, as you have claimed earlier.

These general arguments about victims and revenge through death are pretty inaccurate and weak when one looks into it.

Indo has its laws and the majority approves it. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time, simple as that.

No, it's not that simple. For one, the law is applied selectively -see earlier in this thread, second we're talking about the death penalty here which in my opinion is way over the top for these crimes and only executed for political gain in this case.

Bali belongs to Indo and the the tourist that want to escape to a beautifull vacation. Not some drug addicts runing wild.

Now you sound like my grandad.

I don't think that I have to explain the collateral damages that drugs bring in to a society.
If yes, we have to open another thread.

I am not argueing against that at all, what I have argued against are the sweeping, inaccurate claims to justify the death penalty as some sort of an eye-for-an-eye revennge 'justice'.

Originally Posted by stroller

The death penalty is legal in Indo. You may disapprove of the law, but the definition of the term "murder" does not depend on your opinion.

It does, actually. Perhaps not for you, but it does for me. The term murder applies to government sanctioned killings = murder.

Originally Posted by OckerRocker

Ergo sum = it is murder in my eyes.

Originally Posted by OckerRocker

Whatever the legal verbiage is, is irrelevant. Killing someone is murder and just because a state says it's ok to murder someone doesn't make it right.

Originally Posted by OckerRocker

Apartheid was legal . . . didn't make it right.

I am quite aware what the legal definition is but it is my opinion, for all the above reasons, Stroller.

Some here are all too ready to hep shit on Muslims practising hudud punishments (quite rightly so) but they shouldn't call it murder, it seems, because these atrocities are committed according to their law = legal and to be accepted.

Originally Posted by OckerRocker

Government sanctioned murder is wrong

Better tell that one to all those countries that have standing army's then?

Execution by a government agency mandated by the countries laws and judicial system is far from murder OkrRkr. Do you sanction "Stoning?" Cutting off the offending hand? Perhaps you'd support Islamic Law? Koran based principles?

Yes terrible this constitutional based democratic law enforcement. Worlds largest single Islamic country by population Indonesia. Their prisons are filled to overflow, same as all prisons globally.

Personally "life in prison," would be fine with me...terrible to look forward to life behind bars without the possibility of release.

Originally Posted by ltnt

Execution by a government agency mandated by the countries laws and judicial system is far from murder OkrRkr. Do you sanction "Stoning?"

Why would I sanction stoning? The end-result is death. It is a death sentence - murder by a government

Originally Posted by ltnt

Perhaps you'd support Islamic Law? Koran based principles?

I live in a country that has a mix of shariah law and common law. Shariah law is solely for Muslims, nothing to do with non-Muslims, and deals with divorce, land distribution, banking, investments etc...
There is a difference between shariah law (practised in Malaysia, as an example) and hudud law (NOT practised in Malaysia, rather used in places like Saudi, Sudan etc... )

Government sanctioned murder is part of hudud law (like stoning and cutting off hands) - which is where it becomes frighteningly similar to countries that don't use hudud law but still murder their citizens according to their laws

Originally Posted by ltnt

Personally "life in prison," would be fine with me...terrible to look forward to life behind bars without the possibility of release.

I agree

Originally Posted by Necron99

Murder is a legal term. State executions don't meet the definition.
You can argue the death penalty is not a deterrent, but neither is prison.
Jails are full of career criminals who re-offend once released.
Why burden society with the cost of life without parole?

So you think all criminals should be executed? Prison is in many western countries supposed to rehabilitate offenders - that's where the system fails.

Originally Posted by OckerRocker

...
Some here are all too ready to hep shit on Muslims practising hudud punishments (quite rightly so) but they shouldn't call it murder, it seems, because these atrocities are committed according to their law = legal and to be accepted.

Yep, if it follows the law it is 'killing' or 'execution', not 'murder'.
Nope, logical fallacy: just because I use the correct English term, doesn't mean I approve of the practise.

Originally Posted by ltnt

Execution by a government agency mandated by the countries laws and judicial system is far from murder OkrRkr. Do you sanction "Stoning?" Cutting off the offending hand? Perhaps you'd support Islamic Law? Koran based principles?

And here come the idiotic strawmen with the usual stuff about stoning and Sharia... long overdue in this thread.
Ironically by the same posters who applaud the Bali executions.

Originally Posted by stroller

Nope, logical fallacy: just because I use the correct English term, doesn't mean I approve of the practise.

Didn't say you approve, Stroller. Many here don't see the parallels.

Originally Posted by stroller

No, it's not that simple. For one, the law is applied selectively -see earlier in this thread, second we're talking about the death penalty here which in my opinion is way over the top for these crimes and only executed for political gain in this case.

I think their selection was a excellent choice, not over the top but right on the spot. We are talking about heroin not a pack of joints.

Chan and Sukumaran were the Australian ringleaders of the so-called "Bali Nine" heroin trafficking group whoe were arrested at the main airport on the holiday island in April 2005 for trying to smuggle 8.3kg of heroin to Australia.

Maybe next time someone should tell these folk that: "Yes, in Indo you can get executed for political gains ! "


P.S. I'am sure you grandad is a great person.

Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

Originally Posted by stroller

No, it's not that simple. For one, the law is applied selectively -see earlier in this thread, second we're talking about the death penalty here which in my opinion is way over the top for these crimes and only executed for political gain in this case.

I think their selection was a excellent choice, not over the top but right on the spot. We are talking about heroin not a pack of joints.

Oh dear, you haven't even informed yourself about the convictions, yet happily applaud people being executed!

That's pretty low, but I suppose it's just a forum where you can spout off and relieve some pressure and frustration...

What first hand information do you have that makes these dealers inocent ? Is it because they are transformed now, and the Lord should have mercy. Maybe they should have asked Allah for help and embrace islam.

The film includes a six-page letter written by Chan entitled "Dear Me: The Dangers of Drugs".
In it he writes: "Dear Me, when you are older you will be in a Bali prison and you will be executed. This happened to you because you thought taking drugs was cool.... Your family and friends are heart broken... Underneath you are not a bad person."
He also addresses young people in the film.
"I have missed weddings, funerals, just the simple presence of my family. The hurt and pain
"My life is a perfect example of an absolute waste. That does not have to be [the case] for you."

The director of the film, Malinda Rutter, met Chan in prison and said he was a transformed man.
"He's funny, articulate, he is charismatic and has a very caring personality," Ms Rutter told News Limited.
She said that his unhappy childhood led him into criminal activity. "He was a really troubled kid and he wanted to be tougher and bigger than the other kids," she said.

You can argue that the punishment is a bit harsh but....

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time !

...and don't count on the Lord to bail you out.

Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

What first hand information do you have that makes these dealers inocent ? Is it because they are transformed now, and the Lord should have mercy. Maybe they should have asked Allah for help and embrace islam.

Bali is Hindu . . . just saying.

Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

What first hand information do you have that makes these dealers inocent ?

Don't think anyone said they were innocent.