Thread: Investigators fail to identify killers of foreign journalists

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

The only thing likely to happen if PT does get in power, is another coup will ensue.

Which is why the biggest challenge facing this country is to expel the Military from politics.
They are not the government, they report to it.
For that reason, the current government of Thailand is illegitimate.

Its fatalistic to say nothing will change no matter what happens.

The first step towards a true democracy is democratic elections.
And the first step towards a dictatorship is rule at the point of a gun, AKA a military coup.

Those who endorse military coups as a kind of political check and balance are certainly heading in the wrong direction for harmonious state of democracy. Its like putting the fox in charge of the hen house.

The only way to achieve reconciliation is through free and fair democratic elections. It wont solve all the problems associated with the widespread corruption infecting Thailand, but it is the first step in the right direction.

The heavy handed murderous treatment of political protesters by the military/government, draconian political censorship of the media, imprisonment of political opponents and blatant double standards by the judicary are precisely the very things the masses are objecting to. These are the products of corruption let run wild through militaries intrusion into politics. The road to a dictatorship and eternal rebellion. Oppression does not promote harmony or justice.
But of course, oppression backed by military force is the only way a dictatorship can stay in power.

Sure, such deep rooted corruption which has in fact become an accepted part of the Thai culture can not be contained overnight simply through democracy. But it can be contained eventually if the people are given a voice in government through the democratic process. Conversely, the current oppressive regime backed by the military simply promotes more corruption and abuse of power.

Thailand is at a political fork in the road now, the people have the numbers to force democracy verses the dictators with the guns and tanks. Thats the big picture.

^ Don't disagree but it can't happen here as things are....I don't think you guys know how deeply entrenched things are....!

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Agree with Panda - "undecided" is a much better description, SD.

Though I'd say you are more like "leaning toward the PAD because they have money and power, and I like the Bangkok vibe their class of people have created cause it gives me a nice lifestyle, but I save some sympathy toward the grassroots reds' unfair treatment by the government"

Panda and you couldn't be more wrong.....you've also no idea of who I am, what I do and my background.

Therefore, everything you and Panda write about is pure speculation and opinion, based upon your own limited comprehension.

Try to join the dots sometime.

Who you are, what you do and what is your background is of little consequence here debating Thai politics anonymously over the Internet. It is what you say that is of consequence.

I am surprised someone who professes to be a forensic psychologist would come up with such a silly rebuttal.

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

The only thing likely to happen if PT does get in power, is another coup will ensue.

Which is why the biggest challenge facing this country is to expel the Military from politics.
They are not the government, they report to it.
For that reason, the current government of Thailand is illegitimate.

Precisely!
In a democracy the people decide who governs. NOT the military.

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

since corruption doesn't have a quick fix it's okay to let the group with most of the guns run the place ?

there is more than one here with this mind set

Political checks and balances are not guns and tanks in a democracy. Simple really.

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

^ Don't disagree but it can't happen here as things are....I don't think you guys know how deeply entrenched things are....!

Of course we do. WTF do you think we've been discussing?

But the ONLY way forward is through democratic elections and FORCING those who would deny the right of the masses to choose into submission.

It won't solve the deep-rooted corruption - it's ingrained, it's in-bred, it's ethnic, it's top-down feudalistic. So short of a Marxist revolution, the ONLY way forward is via elections and throwing in jail the people who try to deny the will of the people their majority choice.

Good God man, are you suggesting that since corruption doesn't have a quick fix it's okay to let the group with most of the guns run the place ?

No, where did I suggest that and how did you draw such a bizarre conclusion?

Do you just pluck these weird little thoughts out of thin air?

It's amusing to see you using western logic in the first part of the above. Maybe you need to explore cultural norms here a bit more. Or feel free to go out and apply your western thinking and see how far it gets you....

A massive shift in ideology/thinking needs to take place, before anything is going to change here (that's the deeply entrenched bit, just so you know.....).

Originally Posted by Panda

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Agree with Panda - "undecided" is a much better description, SD.

Though I'd say you are more like "leaning toward the PAD because they have money and power, and I like the Bangkok vibe their class of people have created cause it gives me a nice lifestyle, but I save some sympathy toward the grassroots reds' unfair treatment by the government"

Panda and you couldn't be more wrong.....you've also no idea of who I am, what I do and my background.

Therefore, everything you and Panda write about is pure speculation and opinion, based upon your own limited comprehension.

Try to join the dots sometime.

Who you are, what you do and what is your background is of little consequence here debating Thai politics anonymously over the Internet. It is what you say that is of consequence.

I am surprised someone who professes to be a forensic psychologist would come up with such a silly rebuttal.

What I say is who I am and vice versa ....I'm surprised you would think the 2 are unrelated. Very strange from you...or is what you write totally unconnected from who you are? If so, seek help urgently.

Crap!
You are posting anonymously on an Internet forum FFS man.

As you, yourself, stated above, I have no idea of who you are, what you do, or what your background is other than what you have posted here on the forum.

Dont try to give me that gobbledygook pseudo-intellectual crap about "you are what you say".
You are judged by your peers here on your Internet nic persona involving the particular debates you enter into is all.

Re: your advice to "seek help", you may be stretching the forensic psychologist credibility title a bit there mate.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

A massive shift in ideology/thinking needs to take place, before anything is going to change here (that's the deeply entrenched bit, just so you know.....).

Thats just the thing. A massive shift in ideology/thinking is actually taking place.
Why else do you think the military/government has States of Emergency in place,
draconian censorship of the media, and imprisoning political opponent activists?

The masses want an end to the social injustice and oppression. Thats why they want to choose their own government through the democratic vote.

Red Shirts urge DSI to speed up investigation cases


Red Shirts urge DSI to speed up investigation cases


วันศุกร์ ที่ 19 พ.ย. 2553

• • 

BANGKOK, Nov 19 -- Thailand's anti-government United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) or the red shirt movement began rallying in Bangkok's Ratchaprasong after gathering at the headquarters of the Department of Special Investigation (DSI) calling for fair treatment and justice for the deaths of 89 people during the April-May unrest.

Pluek Plueksunan represented some 300 demonstrators submitting a letter to DSI Deputy Director-General Sansern Palawatwichai calling on the agency to speed up investigation to bring wrongdoers who were behind the deaths and injuring others during the UDD protests in April and May to justice.

The UDD also rejected the DSI investigation report which blamed the Red Shirt and related groups for some cases of the deaths during the clashes between the government forces and protesters including Deputy Chief of Staff of the 2nd Infantry Division, Royal Guards, Col Romklao Thuwatham.

In the letter, the group also called for compensation for the relatives of the people who died during the protest which could lead to the reconciliation.

The Red Shirt supporters gathered at DSI for about an hour and a half, while two companies of police provided security. They dispersed at noon and proceed to the Ratchaprasong intersection for their activities in the evening.

Their presence at Ratchaprasong intersection has caused traffic snarl around the capital's main shopping area.

The gathering in Bangkok Friday was organised to mark the six-month anniversary of the forced ending by state security forces of the group's protest against the government at Ratchaprasong intersection.

The Red Shirt earlier gathered at the Bangkok Remand Prison, demanding that the Red Shirt protesters still being detained on charges of violating the emergency decree be released.

The organisers said they expected that some 10,000 supporters would turn up at Ratchaprasong intersection and affirmed that the gathering would run peacefully and would end at 8pm.

The Red Shirt rally in downtown Bangkok ended May 19 after the Red Shirt leaders announced the end of the more than ten-week long protest and surrendered to police as the army personnel sealed off their protest area.

Most key protest leaders remain in detention under terrorism charges and their bail has been rejected as the court cited their possible flight to avoid prosecution.

Only Mr Jatuporn, who is an MP for the Puea Thai Party, was granted bail as he has parliamentary immunity.

Eighty-nine persons, both security personnel and protesters, were killed and more than 1,900 were injured in several clashes between the troops and the UDD demonstrators during April and May. (MCOT online news)

Originally Posted by Panda

Crap!
You are posting anonymously on an Internet forum FFS man.

As you, yourself, stated above, I have no idea of who you are, what you do, or what your background is other than what you have posted here on the forum.

Dont try to give me that gobbledygook pseudo-intellectual crap about "you are what you say".
You are judged by your peers here on your Internet nic persona involving the particular debates you enter into is all.

Re: your advice to "seek help", you may be stretching the forensic psychologist credibility title a bit there mate.

I have the annoying thing called integrity. Sorry about that.

I'll further remind you I started a thread and just spent the last 3 hours of my life bringing you and others photos and commentary of the red shirt rally today. Now, why would I do that, if I'm so biased towards the government....? Getting it yet?

What did you do?

Ah yes, nothing....

Oh no, sorry, you did do something, you decided to try to engage me in some stupid discussion, to prove something to yourself, which sadly for you, you are utterly wrong about.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Originally Posted by Panda

Crap!
You are posting anonymously on an Internet forum FFS man.

As you, yourself, stated above, I have no idea of who you are, what you do, or what your background is other than what you have posted here on the forum.

Dont try to give me that gobbledygook pseudo-intellectual crap about "you are what you say".
You are judged by your peers here on your Internet nic persona involving the particular debates you enter into is all.

Re: your advice to "seek help", you may be stretching the forensic psychologist credibility title a bit there mate.

I have the annoying thing called integrity. Sorry about that.

I'll further remind you I started a thread and just spent the last 3 hours of my life bringing you and others photos and commentary of the red shirt rally today. Now, why would I do that, if I'm so biased towards the government....? Getting it yet?

What did you do?

Ah yes, nothing....

Oh no, sorry, you did do something, you decided to try to engage me in some stupid discussion, to prove something to yourself, which sadly for you, you are utterly wrong about.

I am sure we all appreciate your reporting of current events.

However, if you wish to engage in personal debates, thats something you will need to face up to separately from your cut and pastes.

http://www.tannetwork.tv/tan/ViewData.aspx?DataID=1037585

Waiting for the Facts

UPDATE : 19 November 2010

With the public outcry for facts surrounding the May 19 protest dispersal growing louder by the day, its becoming increasingly frustrating to see just how little headway has been made in sorting out the events of six months ago.

The issue at the top of everyone's list for clarification is undoubtedly that of the 91 deaths and over 2,000 injuries sustained amongst both protesters and security agents during the tumult. Department of Special Investigations (DSI) Director Tharit Pengdit has tried to impose some order over the matter, stating that the 89 deaths recorded in Bangkok and the two in the provinces have been categorized into two groups. The groups interestingly enough are; deaths in which evidence and witness testimony have attributed them to the red shirt group and deaths without sufficient evidence to clearly indicate instigators.

The first group is populated by 12 cases, including those of Private Singha On-song, Private Puriwat Praphan and other military and police officers. Nonspecific cases in the roster include the launching of an M79 explosive into the Sala Daeng BTS station; causing one death and 75 injuries, the shooting of a security checkpoint on Rama 4; causing one death, the ambush on officers in front of the Bangkok Bank head office; causing one death and the arson of Central World Shopping Complex.

Stating so definitively that the aforementioned actions were committed by the red shirt group poses a real threat to Tharit and the DSI, if not all agencies involved in the matter. Authorities are now compelled to back the claims and produce incontestable evidence that proves the 12 cases were directly carried out by the red shirt group, that is to say not only by its members or interlopers but actual movement sanctioned acts. Up until now, investigators have had a hard time even placing members of the group in the areas of several of the crimes, yet the DSI believes there is enough backing to publicly proclaim the group's culpability.

A sizable amount of the public however, would beg to differ. Cases such as the ambush of officers at Bangkok Bank or the slaying of Colonel Romklao Thuwatham continue to retain an air of mystery. Both incidents were committed deep in areas at the time declared to be in total control of security forces and would require an extensive infiltration to be carried out, and an even more elaborate escape plan to evade immediate apprehension.

Murder and violence are heinous crimes that must be punished. Those responsible for the 91 deaths in May, regardless of their affiliation or allegiance must be prosecuted to the extent of the law. Justice however, cannot be served by snap judgments and distorted facts. The deliberate altering of events and the truth can be seen as just as deplorable as the atrocities committed during this year's Black May. Six months, hundreds of arrests, dozens of statements and countless reviews onward and yet the Thai people are still waiting for the facts

Khao Sod, November 19 2010

Translated and Rewritten by Itiporn Lakarnchua

Please note that the views expressed in our "Analysis" segment are translated from local newspaper articles and do not reflect the views of the Thai-ASEAN News Network.

You know SD, as one of many long-time observers here regarding your posting and commentary, I'd suggest you shouldn't promote yourself as taking the middle path, as most thinkers can see straight through that. Remember, if you find yourself in a position as one of the principle news and information providers within the TD infrastructure, than you best be prepared for criticism as well as praise. I trust that you haven't fallen under this socially engineered hypnotic suggestion that news, information, and journalism needs to be balanced and objective? Such a fallacy. What might be embarrassing for you, is that you defend yourself as a neutral party amongst these chaotic debates and discussions - certainly as such applies to Thai politics and affairs. Most of us can see through that and crying wolf too often becomes your bane. It's perfectly natural and quite acceptable to have a bias or strong subjectivity, because all of us here do. Generally speaking, it's not a secret as to members' social or political feelings, feelings, identities, or agendas. We agree with one another and we disagree with one another - and it's OK. We all are bias and subjective to one regard or another, yes? The attempt to come across as bipartisan is more amusing than not. Howard Zinn once remarked, that it's difficult to be neutral on a moving train.

Whatever RS, I had more respect for you...I guess I got that wrong.

Not everyone is like you. Not everyone thinks like you. Not everyone's experience is the same as yours. You might want to remember that.

Ummm, that's an incredibly poor argument Panda and and a very bad example.

I've avoided lengthy rebuttals, as this is a thread about something unrelated to our present spat.

I also know it is a pointless exercise arguing with people who think in linear terms. I know enough about you (and others) to know that there's no point discussing anything with you or contributing anything of value to such online chats, as it will make no difference. You are entrenched. You wont change your mind. So, why should I bother? I have better things to do with my valuable time.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Ummm, that's an incredibly poor argument Panda and and a very bad example.

I've avoided lengthy rebuttals, as this is a thread about something unrelated to our present spat.

I also know it is a pointless exercise arguing with people who think in linear terms. I know enough about you (and others) to know that there's no point discussing anything with you or contributing anything of value to such online chats, as it will make no difference. You are entrenched. You wont change your mind. So, why should I bother? I have better things to do with my valuable time.

See ya!

As they say: "Don't go away mad, just go away."

I also find it (as RS points out) more than just a little amusing that you fly into hissy fits when we point out your selective postings give away your claim at neutrality. If I may say so, your selective and negative psycho-interpretations of anyone who challenges your views -- and especially your attempts at academic superiority are worth a grin too. How many people arguing these positions do you 'really' think just fell off a turnip truck?

Well, one thing is for sure, there's no danger of you arguing for your intellectual superiority with such posts as the one above as evidence...