Thread: Investigators fail to identify killers of foreign journalists

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Voranai Vanijaka

This guy is a national treasure, because he is about the only honest reporter in the Bangkok media.
I'm actually surprised he still has a job. Is his daddy rich?

Absolutely agree with you, forthright opinion is pretty scarce.
This guy is great, every week he makes strong,clear points.
He should be compulsory reading.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Originally Posted by Panda

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Originally Posted by Panda

Predicting the future too! Quite an achievement.

From my earlier post in this thread....

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

I'm not going to go into a lengthy piece of prose, about why people exhibit bias, although a quick answer would be that bias exists as a result of opinions formed from experiences. Your bias (and taking a side means you are biased, surely you know that) affects every opinion you have. It is unavoidable. You will filter incoming stimulus as a consequence. Again, unavoidable. If the information/stimulus agrees with your preconceived notions, a positive response will ensue. If it is contrary to your opinion you will discard it, or react negatively. Depending upon the strength of the negative stimulus your response will vary. Several pieces of information coming at you over a period of time, that agree with your formed view, will strengthen your opinion and therefore your bias. Once this is set it is usually difficult to undo.

A significant failure in your belief system is required to alter your opinion. Depending upon the importance of the opinion to you personally, as in how much it emotionally affects you, or how much you have invested in it, the stimulus needed to change your mind will need to be of equal or greater size. People just don't change that easily. Several conflicting instances of contrary information may do so as well, but they need to be consistent and regular and over a lengthy period of time.

If you understand this, you'll grasp a lot about why people do the things they do.

People are also effectively sheep. They herd together, form gangs, by doing so they feel some justification (strength in numbers!). Look around you at society, such things as football, religion and politics prove it. You can witness this on a very small scale (down the pub) right up to global movements. It exists on this forum. I wonder if you know where and how it manifests...?

Hmmm.. some very impressive thoughts there SD. Pity they dont relate much to the discussion here. Though I am sure it all makes perfect sense to you.

And I answered your point with aplomb. Amusingly you failed to acknowledge that....

It's very funny panda. You like to state how you are one of the red faction, a supporter of high ideals, you want freedom and democracy for the downtrodden and those kind of wonderful things, but as a person you are really quite unpleasant. Somewhat of a contradiction in there somewhere....

I find it most interesting. Bitterness and resentment easily voiced, all the while espousing an ethical stance here and sympathy for those who have, through no fault of their own, been born into poverty and a lack of opportunity. Methinks you have some complex unresolved "issues" from your earlier days....you don't like authority or those who are in superior positions to your own.

There's a "split-off" element to you. Something you are unaware of.

You reveal this by your targeting of me. Nothing happens by accident. Actually you have no real reason for attacking me at this time, you just joined in the circle jerk (see my previous point).

Understand that I'm completely unbothered by what you or the others of the red shirt myopic brigade try to do. It appears you failed to learn this from previous run-ins with me.

I've done nothing wrong. I have nothing to answer for. I will continue doing what I do.

Thanks for that free psychoanalysis via the Internet.
You must be a very skilled shrink to be able to do that. Especially in the middle of a heated personal debate.

I have printed out your in depth personality profile and will be fileing it when next I feel the urge to move my bowels.

Hardly in-depth, rather obvious I'd have said.

There's plenty more where that came from. Hell, you may never need to buy toilet paper again!

In the meantime, is it possible we could get back to what the thread is about...please.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

In the meantime, is it possible we could get back to what the thread is about...please.

No problem. I thought you said you were going to have your final say ages ago?
The personal posts are only in reply to your own personal comments.
Feel free to carry on if you wish, but dont try to label me a thread fcuker with the mods just because you want to have the last word in a personal debate. Thats a pretty underhanded tactic. BTW, I did suggest you stick to cut and paste posts some time back if you truly wish to avoid debates over your personal opinions. Up 2 u.

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Voranai Vanijaka

This guy is a national treasure, because he is about the only honest reporter in the Bangkok media.
I'm actually surprised he still has a job. Is his daddy rich?

Kudos extended! We could do the courtesy of appreciating this sort amongst the staid and sober Bangkok press. Good on him. Interestingly enough, there seems to be a modicum of like types at the Post - in the last 6-8 months, especially throughout the opinion pages. A growing refreshment to the expected old lines.

He's right that the Government should "man-up" but he's wrong that the killings were justified.

But his viewpoint is clear and straightforward unlike so much of the weaselly stuff in the Bangkok Post.

Except he's the crumbs thrown out to make it all appear 'balanced' when of course it is anything but balanced reporting!

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Except he's the crumbs thrown out to make it all appear 'balanced' when of course it is anything but balanced reporting!

Of course. This is the obvious, even to those who don't keep a jaded eye. An interesting note in regards to the major and long-standing broadsheets in BKK {Thai & English} and their history - their birth, why they were formed, hidden underwriting, etc. This rather conspiratorial view is quite apt certainly as it applies to the English-language Post and The Nation. Most interesting backgrounds as to how they came about. Thorough research will find that Bangkok has enjoyed scores of newspapers throughout it's history.....most of them short-lived. The odd English and Thai-language types of 1902 {example} would have never seen the day of light in today's Bangkok atmosphere.

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Voranai Vanijaka

This guy is a national treasure, because he is about the only honest reporter in the Bangkok media.
I'm actually surprised he still has a job. Is his daddy rich?

Couldn't agree more. His voice continues to be just about the only local one that does not take sides and says what he thinks.

Here is short bio. I doubt he is hurting for money, though I have no idea about his family.

VORANAI VANIJAKA is currently a political & social commentator with the Bangkok Post. He writes the weekly Sunday column and also hosts two TV shows under the Post Publishing brand. There's Morning Focus on NBT True Visions Channel 5, a daily (7.40-8am) English-language news update and commentary show. Then there's Krachub Wong Kao on TNN24 True Visions Channel 7, a daily (5-5.30pm) Thai-language news update and commentary show. Voranai also teaches Political Communications and Advanced News Reporting at Thammasart University.

Here is my favorite piece he wrote after the 2009 Songkran riots. Many here should read it again and take a look in the mirror.
TH


THE BATTLE FOR PUBLIC OPINION

• Published: 26/04/2009 at 12:00 AM
• Newspaper section: News

The Songkran War is lost. Hence, Thaksin Shinawatra has been on an international media crusade, hammering "catch words" and "cool phrases" everywhere he goes. (Note: The following are not exact quotes, but the gist of Thaksin's argument.)


"I'm the democratically elected prime minister!" "Three times!" "I've been ousted by a military coup!" "Freedom and democracy have been replaced by military dictatorship!" "The Monarchy is involved!" "I'm the legitimate democratic leader, PM Abhisit is not!" "I'm the champion of the poor!" "This conflict is the rich, elite minority versus millions of rural poor!" "The Abhisit government abuses freedom and human rights!" "60 to 70 people are slaughtered by the military, who then hid their bodies to fool the world!"

These claims might well have been uttered by the voice of Charleton Heston, booming down from heaven, with Henri Mancini orchestrating the background music.

Every time the international media hears words such as liberal, freedom, democracy, the people, champion of the poor, human rights, etc., they get all misty-eyed and weak at the knees.

But words such as conservative, military, coup, dictatorship, the Institution, elite, abuse of human rights, etc., could very well give them an epileptic attack, prompting them to get on Thailand's case like the red on Nicaraguan beans.

Thaksin is the first Thai politician smart enough to use the service of professional PR and marketing firms, since his very first election campaign as leader of the now defunct Thai Rak Thai party - and they have worked wonders for him. His expensive PR service well understands what tickles the international media.

When he told of his plight, many international analysts, observers, reporters, opinion writers and editors must have had tears in their eyes and nightmarish images of natives running amok, tearing down all the things that are holy and good, such as freedom and democracy.

No doubt, many immediately reached for their trusty Dummy's Guide to Writing about Third World Conflicts.
The formula is easy to digest: Thaksin + the poor + winning three general elections + UDD = democracy, which is good for Thailand. PAD + military coup + the Institution + PM Abhisit + elitists = dictatorship, which is bad for Thailand. It's like putting H2 and O together. The former gives you international sympathy, the latter gives you water - always.

Never mind charges of Thaksin's misrule: corruption, media manipulation and conspiracy to murder over 2,500 innocent civilians during his reign. The irony that Thaksin and his clique in reality is an integral part of the elite, conservative establishment - who are just now bickering among themselves and using the people as pawns. That's boring news.
He's a fugitive democratically elected leader, ousted by a military coup, a champion of the poor. How can you not support a champion of the poor! It's romantic, it's heroic ... the rich vs the poor! Why, it's a regular Nelson Mandela story, except that it's entirely different. But it makes for great headlines.

Never mind the lack of any evidence to support Thaksin's claim that 60 to 70 civilians have been killed by the military during the Songkran War. Not that it absolutely did not happen. We don't know. But we do know this: There's no evidence. So any attempt to pass an empty accusation off as fact is a blatant lie. The same goes for accusations involving the monarchy.

But a third world massacre of innocent civilians makes for great headlines, proof or not. What of the over 2,500 dead bodies then? Well, that was years ago, old news, irrelevant. Who cares!

Never mind the fact that PM Abhisit was democratically elected by Parliament, the representatives of the people, according to the law and the Constitution of Thailand, and not appointed by the military.

An international observer may argue: "But my opinion trumps fact and the law of a sovereign nation. If I say he's illigitimate, then it must be so! My opinion is universal law! Abhisit? Surayud Chulanont? Which was elected, which was appointed? I can't tell the difference, they all look alike!"
Now let's turn the tables.

Much of the local media definitely leans towards the yellow, or otherwise is painted blatantly yellow. Some lean to the red, or are blatantly in the red. But since we already discuss red, let's now discuss yellow.

Many write that Thaksin is trying to bring down the monarchy and to become president of Shinawatra's Republic of Thailand. Oh how that whips the Thai people into frenzy.

Never mind that there's no proof behind the accusation. Oh, he might have said some mean stuff, made some unfounded accusations. But that's a far cry from any evidence showing an attempt to overthrow the monarchy. The only evidence we have is the attempted overthrow of the Abhisit government.
Some write that the military coup that ousted Thaksin was justifiable and democratic. The coup even called itself the Council for Democratic Reform. Isn't that nifty?

Never mind that a military coup is about as undemocratic as banning and censoring information - something both the Thaksin and Abhisit governments are very adept at, like e-viruses on steroids.

To some in the media, the PAD's illegal actions are condoned and swept under the carpet, while they say the UDD leaders ought to be in jail. No, prosecute both.

The law cannot and should not be selective.

In the battle for public opinion, both at local and international levels - personal prejudices, ignorance, manipulation, rumours, hearsay and downright fabrications are the weapons of choice. How is there to be any reconciliation when so many involved refused to except truth and responsibilities, especially in the media?

Here's the truth: A columnist writes the most shallow, ridiculous commentary supporting the PAD, and yellow-shirt lovers will think it's the greatest writing since Soonthornpoo penned Phra Apaimanee. A columnist pens the most baseless, absurd opinion championing the UDD, and red-shirt lovers will think it's the greatest writing since MR Kukrit Pramoj wrote Four Reigns.

Here's the truth: The conflict is not so black and white as the intellectually challenged would have it. Thaksin may lie and manipulate, but he also has a truth on his side. He was the legitimate, democratically elected leader of a nation, who was undemocratically ousted by a military coup. That is a truth that Thaksin can stand on. But that doesn't in any way excuses his corruption, abuses of power and absolute disrespect for human rights and democracy.

Here's the truth: The Democrat-led coalition is the legitimate, democratic government of Thailand, as recognised by the law. Thaksin deserves to be put on trial and, if found guilty, punished for his crimes that are more than just corruption.
But at the same time, he also deserves justice for the wrong done against his democratic government in the military coup.
But who cares for the truth. The crisis worsens because the media, the politicians and the people, local and international, spew rubbish to fan the fire.

We all really need to get better at what we do, both the local and international media. But I would like to specifically address the international media, not all, only the guilty ones, you know who you are.

You may not fan the fire intentionally. You may just be doing your job. Perhaps believing that you're doing the right thing. Perhaps Thaksin's PR firm has a special relationship with you.
But for the sake of plain old, basic human decency, I hope you don't feel any of that gives you the right to worsen the situation, trivialise and make mockery of over 60 million people who are struggling for our freedom, our democracy, our identity and our nationhood. The media should never be the mouthpiece for anyone.

^ still keeping the spin machine going eh TH?

Got to admire your perseverance but it's just boring now as everyone can see this government for what they really are.

Originally Posted by Nostradamus

Got to admire your perseverance but it's just boring now as everyone can see this government for what they really are.

Not so much boring as tiring, tedious and somewhat ball aching, but personaly I think it's beginning to become all of these and more for Abi.

I for one think he's running out of stamina (going around in circles) so lets hope something changes for the better soon.

Not sure it will but there's now't wrong with a bit of postive thinking.

Nos, hardly, the piece is critical of both sides. Equally scathing. It is reasonably balanced. Something which according to RS (et al.) isn't possible...which says more about them than anything!

You need to stop believing the bullshit. Read it again and let the words wash over you...there's a lot of truth in there.

Both factions in this struggle are dishonest and both seek one thing....power (and the trappings that go with it). Both have lied, cheated, engaged in corrupt practices. Is there a worse? I don't know about you, but having to choose a 'less bad' of 2 failures seems a poor choice to me. I choose neither.

Originally Posted by Nostradamus

^ still keeping the spin machine going eh TH?

Got to admire your perseverance but it's just boring now as everyone can see this government for what they really are.

Are you keeping up with this at all, Nosty?

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Both factions in this struggle are dishonest and both seek one thing....power (and the trappings that go with it). Both have lied, cheated, engaged in corrupt practices. Is there a worse? I don't know about you, but having to choose a 'less bad' of 2 failures seems a poor choice to me. I choose neither.

That's as maybe but why not hold elections, let the Thai people which corrupt politicians they actually prefer?

Not for us to pass judgment, comment yes but at the end of the day we have no vote or influence as to the results.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Nos, hardly, the piece is critical of both sides. Equally scathing. It is reasonably balanced. Something which according to RS (et al.) isn't possible...which says more about them than anything!

You need to stop believing the bullshit. Read it again and let the words wash over you...there's a lot of truth in there.

Both factions in this struggle are dishonest and both seek one thing....power (and the trappings that go with it). Both have lied, cheated, engaged in corrupt practices. Is there a worse? I don't know about you, but having to choose a 'less bad' of 2 failures seems a poor choice to me. I choose neither.

Selective bullshit - read what ISN'T said, then you get the clearer picture my son.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2010...-30143183.html

DSI gives 13 cases over to police

By The Nation
Published on November 26, 2010


The Department of Investigation handed 13 of the 89 cases of people killed during the red-shirt protests in May over to the police for further investigation yesterday.

The 13 deaths for which DSI is seeking more information includes that of a Japanese photographer, an Army conscript and three others in Wat Pathum Wannaram near the Ratchaprasong intersection.

Senior police commander Maj-General Amnuay Nimmano said yesterday that the police investigation would follow the normal procedure and find out how and where they died and who the victims were.

"Police will not judge who is right or wrong and who is responsible for the deaths. That will be decided later after criminal investigation," he added.

The 13 deaths are categorised as "causes or killers unknown", though not ruled out as murders, a DSI report released last week said. The report divides the deaths into two categories - caused by the red-affiliated "men in black" and an unknown group of people.

Amnuay said the police investigation should begin next week and would be joined by public prosecutors and DSI agents. He did not give any details on the time frame.

The officer said he could guarantee the probe would "go in the same direction with the same high standards" of each agency involved, though "they were very difficult to solve" as there is hardly any evidence left.

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Nos, hardly, the piece is critical of both sides. Equally scathing. It is reasonably balanced. Something which according to RS (et al.) isn't possible...which says more about them than anything!

You need to stop believing the bullshit. Read it again and let the words wash over you...there's a lot of truth in there.

Both factions in this struggle are dishonest and both seek one thing....power (and the trappings that go with it). Both have lied, cheated, engaged in corrupt practices. Is there a worse? I don't know about you, but having to choose a 'less bad' of 2 failures seems a poor choice to me. I choose neither.

Selective bullshit - read what ISN'T said, then you get the clearer picture my son.

Selective? Where?

What isn't said? Like what?

You have to remember that all these "media outlets" are mere junta PAD yellow mouthpieces.
Thats why they have no credibility.
Just like the current illegal junta appointed government, created on the back od "coup-issued law"
Has the legality of the "coup-issued" law been tested in any fair free impartial democratic court? Has it bollox.
we have all seen what the thai courts are about thanks to one or two heroic champions of democracy.
How taksin was the victim of the undemocratic junta and tampered courts.
You cannot argue with that.

^ I think you may have finally completely lost it LB.

You have taken on this struggle to such a personal degree and romanticised it, did you change nationality along the way too? And it appears that you've swallowed the Robert Amsterdam phrase book and are incapable of producing words of your own.

The re-framing of reality is complete it appears.

Bizarre!

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/poli...d-in-13-deaths

DSI suspects troops involved in 13 deaths

• Published: 26/11/2010 at 12:00 AM
• Newspaper section: News

The Department of Special Investigation believes security forces were involved in the deaths of 13 of 89 people killed during the red shirt rally earlier this year, a DSI source says.

Among the 13 were Japanese cameraman Hiroyuki Muramoto, Pvt Narongrit Sala, who was shot during clashes on Vibhavadi Rangsit Road, and Mana Atran, who was shot at Dusit Zoo, and three people found dead inside Wat Pathum Wanaram _ Rop Suksathit, Mongkol Kemtong and Suwan Sriraksa.

The source claimed the DSI had evidence to back its assumption, including the testimony of an aide to Muramoto who witnessed the killing of his colleague during the clash between soldiers and red shirt protesters at Khok Wua intersection on April 10, the source said.

The evidence, however, will have to be verified by city police. The DSI has sent the 13 cases back to the police for further investigation.

"The DSI says our autopsies are not complete and not clear as to which side was responsible for the deaths," deputy metropolitan police chief Amnuay Nimmano said yesterday ahead of a meeting with police investigators.

City police have been helping the DSI to conduct autopsies on victims who were killed in areas under their supervision.

Pol Maj Gen Amnuay said cases would be forwarded to the court for consideration if the investigators found government forces were involved in the deaths. But if the probe showed the deaths were not caused by state forces, the cases would be sent back to the DSI.

State prosecutors would also be invited to join the police investigation to make sure the inquest maintained a common standard and that all victims would receive fair treatment.

The DSI's investigation has been questioned by relatives of the victims after the agency attributed the killing of some victims to members of the red shirt group and its militia supporters. Ninety-two people died in total. Suspects have been arrested over two fatalities while the 92nd victim died after the DSI began its inquiries.

The agency initially divided the causes of the 89 deaths into three groups. Besides the group of 13 victims, there are those believed killed by red shirt members and their militia supporters and those whose killers are unidentified.

Meanwhile, two more red shirt detainees _ Rathasat Somgpong and Songchai Palakvangsa na Ayudhya _ have been released by the court on bail under the Justice Ministry's policy to protect the rights of suspects arrested in political gatherings, said Nongporn Roongpetchwong, director of the Rights and Liberties Protection Division.

http://www.tannetwork.tv/tan/ViewData.aspx?DataID=1037857

Police Set up Autopsy Probing Committee

UPDATE : 26 November 2010

The police chief has set up a committee to probe the postmortem examinations on the bodies of red shirt supporters, following an investigation conducted by the Department of Special Investigation which stated government troops were responsible for some of the deaths.
National Police Commissioner Police General Wichien Pojphosree has issued an order to set up a committee to probe the autopsy of red shirt causalities.

The DSI has asked the police to investigate and carry out legal proceedings on four cases, including the three bodies from the Patthumwanaran Temple massacre on May 19, one body from the National Memorial violence on April 28, one from the Dusit Zoo incident on May 10 and the death on Japanese reporter Hiroyuki Muramoto on May 10. The DSI-led investigation believes that the deaths were caused by government troops.

Due to the fact that this case has an impact on peace and national security, the National Police Office has decided to set up a committee to probe the autopsy, to be chaired by Police Legal Adviser Police General Ek Angsananont with Assistant National Police Commissioner Police Lieutenant General Chatchawal Suksomjit as the vice chairman of the committee.

The committee will be authorized to oversee the autopsies and ensure that all procedures are conducted fairly and lawfully.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

DSI suspects troops involved in 13 deaths

Everyone else of course knows they were 'involved' in a lot more than that.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

The committee will be authorized to oversee the autopsies and ensure that all procedures are conducted fairly and lawfully.

sooner or later they will get the correct result