Rethinking the state of Israel

**raycarey** · 28-11-2006, 05:38 PM

i apologize for starting a thread with a quote (and from an editorial, no less), but this is topic that is crying out for discussion. in fact, i started a thread on this topic on the other channel and was reminded of it when i came across this piece....

The greatest mistake Israel could make at the moment is to forget that Israel itself is a mistake. It is an honest mistake, a well-intentioned mistake, a mistake for which no one is culpable, but the idea of creating a nation of European Jews in an area of Arab Muslims (and some Christians) has produced a century of warfare and terrorism of the sort we are seeing now. Israel fights Hezbollah in the north and Hamas in the south, but its most formidable enemy is history itself.

Hunker Down With History

the author of this piece is not willing to go as far as i am concerning the nation state of israel. it seems clear to me that the events of the last fifty odd years demand that it be removed from its present geographic location. put it in europe, the american midwest, fuck, put it in isaan for all i care. but the absolute worst place for it to be is where it is now. give it to the highest bidder.

i'm not denying the israelis a homeland. far from it. however, that homeland shouldn't be in a place where everybody wants it out of the neighborhood.

of course it would be a logistic nightmare, but it could be done. if a man can be put on the moon, if the atom can be split, if animals can be cloned, a few million israelis can be moved to another spot on the planet.

i work with people who are older than the state of israel.

it was a mistake..and a recent one. let's fix the mistake and move on.

**kingwilly** · 28-11-2006, 06:07 PM

^ i agree that the creation of isreal was a well intentioned mistake - but i dont think that we could possibly consider 'relolacting' isreal now. that would create even more bloodshed....

**barbaro** · 28-11-2006, 09:27 PM

^ Yes, it was one of the biggest mistakes of the 20th Century.

But, as Kingwillyhggtb, states.

Israel isn't going anywhere.

And neither is the conflict.

**LesBonsTemps** · 28-11-2006, 09:43 PM

Since there were numerous sabras (native born Jews) in Palestine at the time of the creation of Israel, the mistake can't ethically be rectified by removing them from their birthplace. The original mistake seems to have been codifying a government for Jews, run by European Jews, in a location that had long been shared by multiple Semitic tribes, Jewish and other. The post WWII approach seemed to have been based on artificial boundary creation -- well-meaning, I'm sure, but 50 years later we see the inability to, once drawn, be able to redraw boundaries in Israel, Iraq without consequences.

**Boon Mee** · 10-12-2006, 04:53 AM

Al Jazeera Editor Whines: "We always lose to Israel"

Here’s an interview with Al-Jazeera Editor-in-Chief Ahmed Sheikh, demonstrating why this mouthpiece for the global jihad should never be allowed to spread its propaganda in the United States. It’s a perfect encapsulation of the irrational, obsessive hatred of Jews that drives the Arab-Muslim victimhood mentality.

Who is responsible for the situation?
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the most important reasons why these crises and problems continue to simmer. The day when Israel was founded created the basis for our problems. The West should finally come to understand this. Everything would be much calmer if the Palestinians were given their rights.

Do you mean to say that if Israel did not exist, there would suddenly be democracy in Egypt, that the schools in Morocco would be better, that the public clinics in Jordan would function better?

I think so.

Can you please explain to me what the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has to do with these problems?

The Palestinian cause is central for Arab thinking.

In the end, is it a matter of feelings of self-esteem?

Exactly. It’s because we always lose to Israel. It gnaws at the people in the Middle East that such a small country as Israel, with only about 7 million inhabitants, can defeat the Arab nation with its 350 million. That hurts our collective ego. The Palestinian problem is in the genes of every Arab. The West’s problem is that it does not understand this.

Wrong, Ahmed. The West does understand. In this part of the world, blaming all your problems on a super-powerful fantasy opponent is called “mental illness.”

**stroller** · 10-12-2006, 09:27 AM

Al-Jazeera does provide a different perspective from your average right-wing blogger, Boon mee, and they are expanding.
Live with it.
https://teakdoor.com/middle-east-issu...-airwaves.html

**man with no head** · 13-12-2006, 03:32 PM

The conflict would be over if we stopped supporting one of the sides. Let nature take its course; it's time to stop wasting American tax dollars propping up another apartheid state.

**barbaro** · 13-12-2006, 07:10 PM

A nation-state based on a religion is not good. As one-poster stated that brings a nation-state that is more exclusive than inclusive.

Yes, the surrounding Arab/Muslim countries are exclusive, and very bigoted towards others who hold different beliefs and lifestyles.

But the creation of a nation-state in the 20th Century and the land, water, and political repercussions brings nothing good.

I agree with Surasak, also.

**stroller** · 13-12-2006, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by surasak

Let nature take its course

I can't believe I'm reading this! As in "Holocaust"?

But I agree the US has been too one-sidedly involved. With the US taking a step back, and the UN getting more involved...well, who knows.

**man with no head** · 13-12-2006, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by stroller

Originally Posted by surasak

Let nature take its course

I can't believe I'm reading this! As in "Holocaust"?

But I agree the US has been too one-sidedly involved. With the US taking a step back, and the UN getting more involved...well, who knows.

No, the Holocaust was a sytematic extermination of a group of people spread among many states by one state.

If one coutry invades and conquers another country rarely does the population get wiped out. If Iran or someone else were to take on Israel without any U.S. assistance to Israel then the government might be wiped out. The Jews and Arabs have been living there for thousands of years. I seriously doubt they are going anywhere.

The big objection is the apartheid policies of the current regime in Israel. That is what needs 'wiping out' along with near unilateral U.S. support for a non-democracy which is a source of many of the world's problems right now.

If we ever get the courage to let Israel sink or swim on their own:

Underlying Democratic reticence, according to some, are two other factors: wariness of alienating Israel, which has rejected the panel's ideas about making peace with Syria, and distrust of Baker because of his role helping Bush during the contested 2000 presidential election.

WP: Americans think U.S. losing war - washingtonpost.com Highlights - MSNBC.com

...then maybe the U.S. will be seen as a honest broker and won't be the target of terrorism any longer.

As long as we keep supporting Israel then Americans will die and the Middle East will be in turmoil.

Of course, a Middle East in turmoil benefits oil companies and arms suppliers. American lives are cheaper.

**stroller** · 16-12-2006, 09:27 PM

Mordechai Vanunu spent 18 years in prison for revealing secrets about Israel's nuclear program. With Prime Minister Ehud Olmert apparently spilling the beans, he now feels vindicated, he told SPIEGEL ONLINE in an interview.
...
Israel and the Bomb: Atomic Mole Vanunu Hopes for an End to Hypocrisy - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

**Mr Earl** · 17-12-2006, 03:37 PM

So just because muslims hate jews the jew should go away! Sound familiar?

Perhaps if the muslims quit hating jews the problem would go away.
Live together in peace maybe? Slightly more pragmatic I'd be so bold to say!

**Butterfly** · 17-12-2006, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

So just because Americans hate muslims the muslims should go away! Sound familiar?

Perhaps if the Americans quit hating muslims the problem would go away.
Live together in peace maybe? Slightly more pragmatic I'd be so bold to say!

Fixed it for you.

**Mr Earl** · 17-12-2006, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

So just because Americans hate muslims the muslims should go away! Sound familiar?

Perhaps if the Americans quit hating muslims the problem would go away.
Live together in peace maybe? Slightly more pragmatic I'd be so bold to say!

Fixed it for you.

Rather disingenuous don't your think... to rewrite a quote.(nothing surprising!)

Perhaps I might point that 1.2 million muslims live in the USA along with people from dozens of other ethnic and religious backgrounds.

Even after 9/11 there is nothing inherently muslim hating about the USA.

Quite the opposite in fact. Americans more often than not bend over backwards to accommodate minorities.

That's what pisses "filthy redneck trailer trash" (like myself) off.

**stroller** · 17-12-2006, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

Perhaps I might point that 1.2 million muslims live in the USA along with people from dozens of other ethnic and religious backgrounds.

Let's see, this quote from another thread shows how you "bend over backwards to accomodate this minority":

Originally Posted by Earl

The only reason Islam is of any consequence today is due to how it ha become a religion governed my murderous fanatics who are disseminating hatred and chaos around the world.

**Boon Mee** · 20-12-2006, 04:23 PM

Patrick Henery Writes Again

Two great new songs by Patrick Henry have been posted on the mystery composer's web site: "It's All Because of Israel" and "(You Owe Us An) Apology."

Great tunes!

**barbaro** · 20-12-2006, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

So just because muslims hate jews the jew should go away! Sound familiar?

Perhaps if the muslims quit hating jews the problem would go away.
Live together in peace maybe? Slightly more pragmatic I'd be so bold to say!

Sounds easy, doesn't it?

Right of Return

Return of 1949 borders

**Mr Earl** · 21-12-2006, 08:07 AM

^Actually the easiest solution for Israel/Palestine question is to just call a spade a spade.
In other words since the area in question has been known as Palestine for centuries that's what they should call it, not Israel.
There is historical precedence to consider the jews the original inhabitants of Palestine. The Israelis are actually the true Palestinians. The people who call themselves palestinians now are whining arab immigrants.

The author of the OP article make some very good points. The Israelis should ignore hezbollah and hamas rhetoric and stick with history and begin calling themselves Palestine and palestinian.
That would change things right? Make Iran happy because you just wiped Israel off the map and renamed it what it really is "the Palestine" and the jew who live there the palestinian.

**barbaro** · 21-12-2006, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

^Actually the easiest solution for Israel/Palestine question is to just call a spade a spade.
In other words since the area in question has been known as Palestine for centuries that's what they should call it, not Israel.
There is historical precedence to consider the jews the original inhabitants of Palestine. The Israelis are actually the true Palestinians. The people who call themselves palestinians now are whining arab immigrants.

4th generation living in a refugee camp?

How did they get there?

Where did they go there, from?

**stroller** · 21-12-2006, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

The Israelis are actually the true Palestinians.

Their ancestorswere, when was it you said, 70AD?

Perhaps they could call it "New Canaan", that would include both groups living there now?

**Skulldigger** · 21-12-2006, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

^Actually the easiest solution for Israel/Palestine question is to just call a spade a spade.
In other words since the area in question has been known as Palestine for centuries that's what they should call it, not Israel.
There is historical precedence to consider the jews the original inhabitants of Palestine. The Israelis are actually the true Palestinians. The people who call themselves palestinians now are whining arab immigrants.

The author of the OP article make some very good points. The Israelis should ignore hezbollah and hamas rhetoric and stick with history and begin calling themselves Palestine and palestinian.
That would change things right? Make Iran happy because you just wiped Israel off the map and renamed it what it really is "the Palestine" and the jew who live there the palestinian.

Dont bogart that joint.

**ceburat** · 21-12-2006, 03:14 PM

The land was originally inhabited by Canaanites. In Exodus 3:8 God refers to the land as "Land of the Canaanites". Inhabited by Hitties, Amorities, Perizzites, Hivites, Jubsites. Maybe others also.

However, God gave the land to Abraham and all his seed thereafter for a permanent possission.

Why did God give away the land that belong to another? Because of sin.
The residents of Canna worshiped idols and such. To God this was sin. The Hebrew's now called Israelies obeyed God. So as directed by God, Joshua conquered the land and overthrew God's enemies.

Israel has lost some ownership over the years due to their sin and dis-obidence to God, however, their rights are as "everlasting possession". The Israelites are still God's chosen people.

God created the earth. He owns the land and as owner he can give it to who he wants.

I base all of the above on the Holy Bible. Oh, yes. I know many of you do not accept the Holy Bible. However, you can not show any evidence or true reference to dispute the above.

**Boon Mee** · 21-12-2006, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by ceburat

God gave the land to Abraham and all his seed thereafter for a permanent possission.
Israel has lost some ownership over the years due to their sin and dis-obidence to God, however, their rights are as "everlasting possession". The Israelites are still God's chosen people.

Can't get much simpler than that all you Yid-haters!

Excellent post, ceburat.

**man with no head** · 21-12-2006, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by ceburat

God created the earth. He owns the land and as owner he can give it to who he wants.

I base all of the above on the Holy Bible. Oh, yes. I know many of you do not accept the Holy Bible. However, you can not show any evidence or true reference to dispute the above.

"If you cannot disprove it, therefore, it must be true" is not a valid form of argument.

If the Jews are God's chosen people why do they need weapons made by man to protect themselves? One would think God's chosen people would live in a magic city on a hill protected by a magic cloud which would automagically protect them from any possible harm. If the Jews were God's chosen peolpe He has a funny way of showing it since He allowed the Holocaust to take place.

Bunch of nonsense it all is basing modern day politics on an ancient and unproven story. And some people criticize Muslims for an archaic thoughts

**Skulldigger** · 21-12-2006, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Originally Posted by ceburat

God gave the land to Abraham and all his seed thereafter for a permanent possission.
Israel has lost some ownership over the years due to their sin and dis-obidence to God, however, their rights are as "everlasting possession". The Israelites are still God's chosen people.

Can't get much simpler than that all you Yid-haters!

Excellent post, ceburat.

Are you Jewish or Christian then?

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