Thread: Rethinking the state of Israel

Originally Posted by mao say dung

What's to debate?

Obviously nothing from you Mao.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by mao say dung

It is a democratic state with many liberal features and I reckon it should defend itself against people like Hamas in whatever way it sees fit.

being a democratic state doesn't give you the right to persecute and kill innocent civilians,

never said it did...

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Hamas has the right to defend itself,

Of course. And given that Hamas is committed to the destruction of the state of Israel, I'd say the Israelis are unlikely to ease up on them any time soon. War is hell, and it's particularly bad for the losers.

Originally Posted by mao say dung

never said it did...

but you inferred it, by putting the word democratic state in the same sentence as "defending" itself,

but they are not "defending" themselves, they are attacking and murdering people

The Nazi were also on the defensive with all those death camps and deportation, to save the master race

Originally Posted by mao say dung

it gets really boring...

yes truth is very boring and uneasy, but it doesn't take away its validity

^ Quite right.
There is a close parallel between Hitlers Nazi Germany and the Zionist mindset in Israel. Although Israel hasnt resorted to the kind of mass slaughter Hitler did in the concentration camps, Israel is taking a much slower and more methodical approach to their version of ethnic cleansing and land grabs.

With the remnants of the Palestinian population largely confined to refugee camps that have grown into cities (eg:Gaza), the creeping cancer of Zionist land grabs and ethnic cleansing continues under the guise national security.

Like Hitler with the Jews, the Zionists wish the Palestinians would just go away and live someplace else. But like the Jews of Europe during WW2, the Palestinians have no place to run to. And unlike the Jews of WW2 the Palestinians, with their backs to the wall are putting up a fight for their homeland. Such is the reason its become such a protracted battle for the Zionists to displace the Palestinians and steal their land.

The ironic thing is that although the overwhelming military force of Israel is slowly winning the greedy land grab, The Palestinians with no place to go become absorbed into Israel all be it as second class citizens, but citizens all the same. And since the affluent Israelis birth rate is considerably lower than the poor underclass displaced Palestinians, --- eventually the Palestinians will hold the balance of political power in Israel under a democratic system of government.

But you can bet the Jewish God never said anything about democracy making all men equal regardless of ethnicity or religion.

The saddest thing of all is that the USA funds, militarily supports and protects these atrocities committed by Israel in the UN by its power of veto. While the rest of the world has outspokenly condemned what Israel is doing in relation to war crimes, human rights abuses and breaches of international law, USA has unashamedly shielded them from sanctions by the world community. And indeed has openly and blatantly supported Israels rouge activities.

Originally Posted by mao say dung

On the other hand, I don't give a shit about all this historical justification. Israel is what it is and where it is and that is that. It is a democratic state with many liberal features and I reckon it should defend itself against people like Hamas in whatever way it sees fit.

If you don't care about moral or historical justification, why are you obsessed with justifying Israel's historical and current terrorism and ethnic cleansing. Your only defense of Israel seems to be that it's there, like a burglar who moves into your home "..is there..." and by virtue of his power to keep you at bay is where he belongs. You really have nothing, Mao, except the old Might Makes Right argument, which puts you on the side of Hitler, at least when he was winning. So if Hitler had won in the end, "Ce la vee! (sp). Right?

Originally Posted by mao say dung
You also seem to think that "the Palestinians" (whoever you conceive them to be) being prepared to live in a British Mandate rather than grow the balls to fashion a country for themselves was a good thing, and so they should be given a country now.

I think the balls to fashion a country of their own is what the Palestinians are doing, only on the land they have been living on for generations and so have what most people recognize as more legitimacy than the European/USA imposed colony called Israel. Based on the nonsense you spew, the terrorism used by the militant wings of Hamas and Hezbola can be no worse than Israel's.

It's not Jews we need to fear, it's religeous fanatacism such as "God gave this land to me..." and the fanaticism of Osama bin Laden. (By the way, He didn't give them the land--it was taken from the original inhabitants by an army led by Moses' son, if memory serves me). Bin Laden and Israel are not moral equivalents, but they agree on one thing--kill and terrorize enough people to take what you want. But that doesn't make right. Or does it, Mao?

[quote=MrG;1083272]

Originally Posted by mao say dung

You really have nothing, Mao, except the old Might Makes Right argument, which puts you on the side of Hitler, at least when he was winning. So if Hitler had won in the end, "Ce la vee! (sp). Right?

Oh, ok. Let me see if I can muster a real argument... Uhm... you and Hamas are just like Hitler!!!!

Now I gotcha.

Brilliant! Nothing...but brilliant.

Originally Posted by MrG

If you don't care about moral or historical justification, why are you obsessed with justifying Israel's historical and current terrorism and ethnic cleansing. Your only defense of Israel seems to be that it's there, like a burglar who moves into your home "..is there..." and by virtue of his power to keep you at bay is where he belongs. You really have nothing, Mao, except the old Might Makes Right argument, which puts you on the side of Hitler, at least when he was winning. So if Hitler had won in the end, "Ce la vee! (sp). Right?

beautifully said, this is exactly what it is

Originally Posted by MrG

It's not Jews we need to fear, it's religeous fanatacism such as "God gave this land to me..." and the fanaticism of Osama bin Laden. (By the way, He didn't give them the land--it was taken from the original inhabitants by an army led by Moses' son, if memory serves me). Bin Laden and Israel are not moral equivalents, but they agree on one thing--kill and terrorize enough people to take what you want. But that doesn't make right. Or does it, Mao?

Religious fanatics in Israel will be the destruction of that country, it happened twice before, third time is a charm.

^^ I thought so... I'm surprised that you don't find it flattering that I would try to adapt the subtle brilliance of "They (and you) are just like Nazis", to my side of things. The fact that this is also how 15 year olds analyze their parental units shouldn't put you off; please continue "thinking" this way.

How about this:

I favour giving Palestinians Israeli citizenship and Israel officially absorbing the occupied territories. I favour the Israeli government making it 100% clear up-front that there will be no special dispensations, schools, courts, laws or regulations recognizing the unique character of the Palestinians thus enfranchised. I favour the Israeli police then proceeding to keep a very close eye on Palestinian communities and the Israeli courts being careful not to take "cultural difference" into consideration when sentencing former Palestinians. I favour the educational establishment and social services in Israel being especially vigilant in the area of child abuse, particularly with regard to all the ways that girls can be damaged by being raised in environments that encourage them to see themselves as unable to drive or study or think or choose a husband. I favour making welfare contingent on a minimum period of time spent in gainful employment for all new citizens.

When someone points out that some of these restrictions do not apply to the community at large, like the one concerning "special" schools, I'd say it's up to the Supreme Court to work that out. Benefit everyone, IMO.

Originally Posted by Panda

There is a close parallel between Hitlers Nazi Germany and the Zionist mindset in Israel. Although Israel hasnt resorted to the kind of mass slaughter Hitler did in the concentration camps, Israel is taking a much slower and more methodical approach to their version of ethnic cleansing and land grabs.



The saddest thing of all is that the USA funds, militarily supports and protects these atrocities committed by Israel in the UN by its power of veto. While the rest of the world has outspokenly condemned what Israel is doing in relation to war crimes, human rights abuses and breaches of international law, USA has unashamedly shielded them from sanctions by the world community. And indeed has openly and blatantly supported Israels rouge activities.

Guilty as charged. Don't expect any changes or modifications in the distant future. Same as it ever was.

Originally Posted by mao say dung

I'm surprised that you don't find it flattering that I would try to adapt the subtle brilliance of "They (and you) are just like Nazis", to my side of things. The fact that this is also how 15 year olds analyze their parental units shouldn't put you off; please continue "thinking" this way.

I never said or even implied that you're just like Hitler. Scroll back an read it again. Might makes right is a philosophy that Kings have used throughout history. So do you. Israel is a "...fact on the ground..." (a phrase that's become their latest excuse to keep what they've stolen) but that fact doesn't make it right. Hitler is a bad example simply because it puts everyones hair on fire and is distracting, but in the case of Israel the irony makes it especially relevant. Face it, the comparison of the Warsaw Ghetto to Gaza is self apparrent (a fact on the ground...?) especially given Israel's pledge of "Never Again" as if they were holding up some moral barricade for the future. They should gag on the hypocricy.

But back to the point: We could use other examples. Stalin comes to mind--killed more than Hitler. But it's not the individual that's the analogy, it's the philosophy.

Originally Posted by MrG

Originally Posted by mao say dung

I'm surprised that you don't find it flattering that I would try to adapt the subtle brilliance of "They (and you) are just like Nazis", to my side of things. The fact that this is also how 15 year olds analyze their parental units shouldn't put you off; please continue "thinking" this way.

I never said or even implied that you're just like Hitler. Scroll back an read it again. Might makes right is a philosophy that Kings have used throughout history. So do you.

Uh-huh. Your sense of "history" is so different from mine that it might be best that we leave out such weighty considerations as the philosophies that Kings have used "throughout history" and try to stick more closely to what's been said. For example, I'd like to know where you think I've expressed some "Might makes right" leanings.

I think Hamas and Palestinians in general have the right to fight for what they think of as theirs. I think that if they want to use children as human shields and deliberately provoke Israel into attacking and killing Palestinians, they have that right. I think that if the Palestinians want to vote for representatives whose organisation is built on a commitment to the destruction of Israel and the establishment of an Islamist state based in Shariah, they have that right. And you have the right to support and defend these folk with whatever moralistic bleating you choose to emit.

That does not mean I think that what the Palestinians, Hamas and you are doing is "right", as in "good" or "moral" or "ethical".

I also happen to think that the Israelis have the right to defend themselves against the Palestinian wing of the general Muslim drive to have the Israeli state dismantled or destroyed. I think that they also have the right to hold on to the lands they've occupied as part of that defence. I think they have the right to refuse to pussyfoot around with people who are quite frank in their hatred of Jews, their commitment to the destruction of Israel, and their intention to replace Israel with a theocratic state. I think they have the right to be richer, smarter, better organized and hooked up with better friends than their enemies.

That does not mean that I think what the Israelis do when they kill Palestinians with whatever horrendous weapons they can lay hands on or manufacture is "right", as in "good" or "moral" or "ethical".

Originally Posted by MrG

Israel is a "...fact on the ground..." (a phrase that's become their latest excuse to keep what they've stolen) but that fact doesn't make it right.

What is it that you don't get about the difference between "fact" and "right"? The thing that makes a fact a fact is that it doesn't rely for its existence on your or anyone else's opinion of what is "right". You may obsess over whether gravity and cancer and war are "right", but if you think that that is going to change anything about them you are wrong. And that is a fact.

Originally Posted by MrG

Hitler is a bad example simply because it puts everyones hair on fire and is distracting, but in the case of Israel the irony makes it especially relevant. Face it, the comparison of the Warsaw Ghetto to Gaza is self apparrent (a fact on the ground...?) especially given Israel's pledge of "Never Again" as if they were holding up some moral barricade for the future. They should gag on the hypocricy.

An American-Israeli friend once pointed out that "Never Again" was not intended to be understood as "some moral barricade for the future"; it was intended to be understood as "the next time somebody tries this on us, they will be holding up their dead children for the paparrazi to make a few bucks on". No hypocrisy involved. If it's easier for you to understand, think of it as "Fuck with the Bull, You get the Horn."

So, is Hitler a bad example, or not? You people use Hitler because in your TV news saturated brains, Hitler or Nazi is a way to say "like, really bad, dude, like the baddest thing ever". Anyone with a functioning sense of the historical reality of the Nazi regime, its "Jewish" policies, its historical roots in European anti-Semitism and its governmental style can only laugh when these comparisons are mooted in seriousness. So,

Originally Posted by MrG

But back to the point: We could use other examples. Stalin comes to mind--killed more than Hitler. But it's not the individual that's the analogy, it's the philosophy.

Much better. This one gets a

This whole thing about anyone who opposes the current Israeli atrocities against their neighbours being anti-semitic Nazi sympathizers has gone well beyond the realms of belief. What the Zionist Israelis are doing now has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the Holocaust and is more akin to Adolf Hitlers WW2 policy of ethnic cleansing than Jews defending themselves against any kind of persecution.

I find it distasteful to say the very least that the Zionists would treat their family who died in Nazi death camps with such disrespect only for motives of personal greed based on religious beliefs.

Originally Posted by longway

Is Nazi concept of Lebensraum all that different from a hardline Jew believing in the promised land?

The concept of Lebensraum was not a "Nazi" concept. The notion that a densely populated, highly-industrialized and resource poor nation like Germany would eventually have to make war to take land and resources in order to compete with globe-spanning empires like the English and the French was developed by a couple of German profs in the 1890s. I fail to see the relevance of such a context-specific notion to anything to do with Israel. But please do continue with the game of "making-the-Jews-into-Nazis".

Originally Posted by longway

Perhaps if you consider the Arabs the local equivelent of Slavs then the comparsion makes mroe sense. You obviously believe they are 'unfit' to have their own country in any case, and you use the same kind of sterotyping was used by the nazis to justify their insatiable appetite for Slav territory.

Interesting "reading", if that's what it is. Care to point out where I communicate these things in what I've written so far?

Originally Posted by longway

BTW to say that that you have a view similar to a Nazi is not to say that you are a Nazi, but to offer you a perpective on the type of people who have shared your views.

Yes, yes. I see your point. So, you would say, I take it, that since most of these "the Jews are Nazis" posts are clearly motivated by hatred of Jews, rather than any cogent analysis of anything at all, that most of these pro-Palestinians are in the boat of those who share views with Nazis?

And given that the Hamas charter actually quotes from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and states clearly the goal of eradicating Israel and killing Jews, simply because they are Jews, you would say that these are fellow-travellers in the Nazi boat as well?

The irony in all of this is that Nazi-style anti-Semitism, which was just an industrialized version of standard European thinking, is alive and well in all the usual places.

Originally Posted by longway

The jewish state is not all like the nazi state, but some of the things they do to preserve their state can be compared to nazi methods. Its not laughable, its a grim irony, and something jews should think about IMO.

It's easy enough to say so, but why not spin this out a bit and say how; I mean, the Nazis didn't invent guns or the idea that one kills one's enemies in a mortal conflict.

Originally Posted by longway

Neither side in this conflict can hold their heads up high.

Agreed.

The concept of Lebensraum was not a "Nazi" concept.

Yes you are right, and I did correct it. However the Nazis did use the idea to justify their murderous policies, as do Zionists who use the concept of the 'promised land' to achieve greater srael cleasnsed of all but the chosen people.

There are relevant parallels between the two.

Interesting "reading", if that's what it is. Care to point out where I communicate these things in what I've written so far?

The way you spoke of them not 'getting of their butts' to fight to forge a country. Your other references to them using children as shields, and how they should assimilated into the jewish state by stripping them of their cultural identities through close scrutiny the police, and their need for a general education in 'civilised' behaviour.

clearly motivated by hatred of Jews

Some of the posts in this thread have been disgusting. Not to mention certain other threads. Others are just being more naiive, but I think show how far this whole mess in the ME has sunk.

And given that the Hamas charter actually quotes from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and states clearly the goal of eradicating Israel and killing Jews, simply because they are Jews, you would say that these are fellow-travellers in the Nazi boat as well?

If you say so, I will go with it, I dont know too much about Hamas. Only what I see in the news.

It's easy enough to say so, but why not spin this out a bit and say how; I mean, the Nazis didn't invent guns or the idea that one kills one's enemies in a mortal conflict.

No, but the point is that the Jews are putting Arabs under some of the conditions they were put under by the Nazis, I am talking about the ghettos, high walls, the theft of private property, general economic control and exploitation, barring them from the outside world, and its not the Arabs who did it to the Jews. Its just something I personally think they need to reflect on.

Nazi Germany was all about expansion of the Land, funny how this is exactly how Israel see Palestinian territories

Israelis are the true children of Hitler, how ironic, like a sexually abused child seeking revenge on other children when he grows up

On that basis alone, the finding of "parallels" is an absurdity

I think it has been amply demonstrated by many that your sense of absurdity is not necessarily shared, though you may feel an intellectual superioity in your position, it is no more than that, its just a feeling.

As for thr rest, its pretty much bollocks, the Israelis won,thats why they have what they have. If they want peace instead of putting their heads up their arses about how tough they had it, they should work out a way of living with their neighbours. The chose the location, if they want to be cunts about it that is fine by me, I just hope Westen powers dont get dragged anymore, it would be best in the LT for everyone concerned if Israelis stopped getting preferential treatment on the basis of what happened 60 years ago.

Originally Posted by mao say dung

I'd like to know where you think I've expressed some "Might makes right" leanings.

Here's what you said, Mao.

Israel has the power that it has and the friends that it has. It also has the land that it has. People, especially the Palestinians, need to recognize this, and get over it.

Yes I think that is a definite indication that I’m discussing issues of “rights” and “justification” (check out the name of the thread) with a Might Makes Righter. You support it a page or two later with this bit of rhetorical double talk:

Originally Posted by mao say dung

I think Hamas and Palestinians in general have the right to fight for what they think of as theirs. I think that if they want to use children as human shields and deliberately provoke Israel into attacking and killing Palestinians, they have that right. I think that if the Palestinians want to vote for representatives whose organisation is built on a commitment to the destruction of Israel and the establishment of an Islamist state based in Shariah, they have that right. And you have the right to support and defend these folk with whatever moralistic bleating you choose to emit. That does not mean I think that what the Palestinians, Hamas and you are doing is "right", as in "good" or "moral" or "ethical". I also happen to think that the Israelis have the right to defend themselves against the Palestinian wing of the general Muslim drive to have the Israeli state dismantled or destroyed. I think that they also have the right to hold on to the lands they've occupied as part of that defence. I think they have the right to refuse to pussyfoot around with people who are quite frank in their hatred of Jews, their commitment to the destruction of Israel, and their intention to replace Israel with a theocratic state. I think they have the right to be richer, smarter, better organized and hooked up with better friends than their enemies. That does not mean that I think what the Israelis do when they kill Palestinians with whatever horrendous weapons they can lay hands on or manufacture is "right", as in "good" or "moral" or "ethical".

Lopsided rhetoric trying to have it both ways. Why don’t you just add “Heads I win, Tails you lose”? If Israeli religious fanatics have the right to hide behind their kids who they’ve dragged into a war zone, a settlement on occupied land, they have the right to live with being suicide bombed for generations. I’m not saying it’s right, but to paraphrase you, they should “get over it”. Striped of “morality” that you’re too tough to care about, here’s what I think: I have more right to fire on the guy breaking into my house than he has to fire on me for being in his way. Is that “real world” enough to cut through your crap?

Originally Posted by mao say dung

An American-Israeli friend once pointed out that "Never Again" was not intended to be understood as "some moral barricade for the future"; it was intended to be understood as "the next time somebody tries this on us, they will be holding up their dead children for the paparrazi to make a few bucks on". No hypocrisy involved. If it's easier for you to understand, think of it as "Fuck with the Bull, You get the Horn."

Oh Hell, Mao, everybody knows that. I used to live there. And everyone knows Israel also parades the phrase like a bloody martyrs flag to imply they are protecting the world from the kind of atrocities European Jews suffered (ironically, at the hands of a man who also claimed ancient rights to the lands he invaded. Another comparison to Hitler, I know. But you brought him up.)

Originally Posted by mao say dung

You people use Hitler because in your TV news saturated brains, Hitler or Nazi is a way to say "like, really bad, dude, like the baddest thing ever".

You mean, you don’t think Hitler was a really bad dude…? That I’ve been saturated by TV News (you mean propaganda…?) I was ready to give your attempt at reasonableness a fair shake until you added that.

Originally Posted by mao say dung

Anyone with a functioning sense of the historical reality of the Nazi regime, its "Jewish" policies, its historical roots in European anti-Semitism and its governmental style can only laugh when these comparisons are mooted in seriousness.

That's some blowhard rant you got there. So your theoretical firm grasp on some unarticulated historical reality of Nazis and European anti-Semitism – a grasp which you claim as fact and not the opinion of misguided kids with stars in their eyes – means that an application of morality to world affairs can be shrugged off with a laugh? Wow! Macho pretense at full strut. Dick Cheney still trying that act in defense of invading Iraq.

And then there's this:

Originally Posted by mao say dung

Much better. This one gets a

You’re so Butch. To think you did all that thinking and wrote it all down with one hand wrapped around your dick. Keep laughing.

From the Desk of Dr. Erhard Wetzel, Desk Officer for Racial Matters: Reich Ministry for Eastern Territories... April 1942:

From a racial standpoint the Poles contain essentially almost the same racial strains as the Germans, although the proportions of the individual races are different. The nordic-phalian type is certainly fairly strongly present... That is the result of the strong strain of German blood which the Polish population of this area have received through the Polonization (Verpolung) of the Germans... On the other hand, the Eastern balt racial strain is present in the Polish population to a far greater degree than in the German population. Moreover in addition to dinaric, 'westich' and 'ostich' strains, there are also some fairly primitive 'ostich' types about whom one must have grave doubts as to whether they can be regarded as identical to 'homo alpinus' ... There is in my view some justification.... to term these groups "Lapponoids".

These are the kinds of deliberations that went on before it was decided to escort a few thousand here or ten thousands there into a forest to be shot and buried in a mass grave back in the baddest ol' Nazi days.

People who find "parallels" in contemporary Israeli relations with the Palestinians are presumably of the "Lapponoid"* inclination.


*It was later discovered that reading a few books of history rather than relying on TV news and Hollywood films for information could fly one up to "homo alpinus" status almost instantaneously. Few took this route, however; better a lapponoid than a homo anything seems to have been the dominant rationale.

Originally Posted by mao say dung

I don't deny that the Israelis have done some horrible things and that their response has become more and more disproportionate over time; it is a response though. What the Nazis and their many sympathizers in Europe did was not a response to anything the Jews did; it was an attempt to eradicate what they were. On that basis alone, the finding of "parallels" is an absurdity.

Amazing...! The Israelis steal people land, and when those people fight back, the Israelis are the responders to the aggressive Palestinians. C'mon, Mao. The only place you can get away unchallenged with that bit of propoganda is through the Israeli Tourist Bureau or the American press.

From another post...

Originally Posted by mao say dung

These are the kinds of deliberations that went on before it was decided to escort a few thousand here or ten thousands there into a forest to be shot and buried in a mass grave back in the baddest ol' Nazi days.

"Are they one of us, or do they just live here? Palestinian...! They have to go or I'll have to...respond. Never Again!". Is that a fair imagining of the kind of conversations that went on when Israelis descended on the territory like locusts on free grain?

Originally Posted by mao say dung

People who find "parallels" in contemporary Israeli relations with the Palestinians are presumably of the "Lapponoid"* inclination.

People who don't find "parallels" to contemporary Israeli actions towards the Palestinian issue are presumably of the "Thickus Hominid" variety. You're living proof.