Ukraine war mega thread

[Norton]

At a news conference in Poland after the visit, Mr Austin told reporters the US wants to see "Russia weakened to the degree that it can't do the kinds of things that it has done in invading Ukraine".

Hardly breaking news. The US has for decades and will continue for as long as it takes to keep and weaken Russia and any other nation who for whatever reason invades a country friendly to the US. The Ukraine war is just another chapter in the US end game to continue what will be the end of Russia as a threat to US led "western democracies".

Like it or not the US is by far "the" world power. It has the capacity and the will to remain so.

This last miscalculation by Putin will only accelerate the final demise of what is left of Russia.

[Iceman123]

Hardly breaking news. The US has for decades and will continue for as long as it takes to keep and weaken Russia and any other nation who for whatever reason invades a country friendly to the US.

Just who did Vietnam invade to qualify for this benevolence from the US. Let’s throw in Cambodia, Laos (the most bombed country in history) Afghanistan, Grenada etc.

There is a lot to unpack in your post. The US find it very difficult to accept that the majority of humanity do not want their brand of democracy.

The US is on the wane, it is apparent. Like it or not China is the star in ascendancy.

Many people see the US as sick society, their 3rd rate healthcare, education system, welfare, and absolute crazy gun laws manifest this clearly.

Russia has existed for a lot longer than the US, don’t count on its demise.

[sabang]

Like it or not the US is by far "the" world power.

It has the capacity and the will to remain so.

It did not have the combination of capacity and will to subdue Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, ensure a successful outcome in Syria or a desirable outcome in Libya.
And whether it has the capacity to 'beat' Russia in a war or not is a moot point- because it does not have the will to do so. Thus the Ukrainians are the proxies, doing the fighting and dying.
Diplomatically, the attempt to isolate Russia has been partly successful at best- because most of the world has not joined the sanctions, or refused to trade with Russia.
Economically, the sanctions have not had the desired effect- they are harming the US' European 'allies', and the Russian economy has surprised us all with it's resilience.

Seems like a losing hand to me norts. The USA may be 'hurting' Russia- but it is hurting it's allies more. And the emerging 'Multipolar world order' is household talk now, at least outside the US.

[sabang]

Washington put us all on notice when Zelensky got to town: It has no intention of seeking a diplomatic solution to the Ukraine crisis and every intention of recommitting indefinitely to its ideological war.

Passing through Austin, Texas, the other night, we had drinks with a distinguished observer of global affairs and took the opportunity to ask how he thought the war in Ukraine would conclude. It is a common question these days. While no answer can be definitive, it is always interesting to discover what wise heads see out front.
“Either Russia prevails on its terms,” came the answer, “or there is a nuclear exchange.”

I do not think this stark assessment would have necessarily held up even a month ago. I may not have agreed with it, in any case. But the war has escalated markedly over the past week or two. And our Austin companion’s either/or prediction seems now to be the terrible truth of new circumstances.

There are numerous indications that Russia is preparing to launch a major offensive in coming weeks or months. With Volodymyr Zelensky’s circus-like visit to Washington last week, the Biden administration and the Democrat-controlled Congress have drastically, recklessly increased their investment in the Ukrainian president’s regime — a good-money-after-bad judgment if ever there was one.

This now shakes out as a war between rhetoric and reality. And the former, a war waged with immense volumes of Western weaponry in defense of ideological bombast, is far more dangerous than the latter, a war waged on the ground with clearly defined objectives.

As John Mearsheimer and Jack Matlock, two astute students of this conflict, have argued, neither side can afford to lose in Ukraine. But what is at stake for Russia and the West — Ukraine being the latter’s proxy — is very different.

A Russian defeat in Ukraine would be a direct threat to its security, sovereignty, and altogether its survival. These are legitimate causes. What people would not defend themselves against such a threat — especially given Washington’s long record of subterfuge in nations, not least the Russian Federation, that insist on their independence.

Near-Cosmic Confrontation

The Biden administration’s rhetoric since the Ukraine crisis sharpened prior to the outbreak of hostilities in February has cast this conflict as a near-cosmic confrontation between liberalism and authoritarianism. I do not see that this is very different from Bush II’s biblical baloney about Gog and Magog as it prepared to invade Iraq, or Mike Pompeo’s unhinged end-times talk when he was whipping up war fever against Russia and China while serving as Donald Trump’s secretary of state.

This irresponsible rhetoric has painted every breathing, walking-around American into a corner from which the only escape is capitulation. That is why it is dangerous. Russia can win battles and wage extensive artillery and rocket campaigns and remain open to negotiation at any opportunity conditions present. Putin made this point clear once again on Sunday.

It is difficult to see, by contrast, how our addled president can find his way to talks given how he and the third-rate neoconservatives who control his foreign policies have cast this conflict. And it is too easy to imagine these people reaching for the nuclear buttons once their follies become evident.

Two conclusions are due at this point.

One, on the terms our Austin friend offered, we must hope Russia eventually prevails in Ukraine on its terms. This is the only available path to a stable, enduring global order once the guns go silent.

Two, I must return to my original assessment of Moscow’s “special military operation.” The Russian intervention was regrettable but necessary. Let us not forget the nomenclature here. This is a sovereign nation defending itself against an imperium that will not stop aggressing until it is forced to stop. Thirty years of ignoring Moscow’s repeated requests to negotiate a mutually beneficial post–Cold War security order are demonstration enough of this.

Braggadocio & the Battlefield

The braggadocio coming out of Kiev and Washington, always faithfully reproduced in corporate-owned media, seems to grow more preposterous in direct proportion to the diminishing prospects of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, the AFU, on the ground. This war is going very badly for the Ukrainian side and its backers, never mind the pabulum you read in the major dailies. We read of battlefield victories that are not victories. We read that Russia is running out of matériel when there is no shred of evidence that this is so. As Alexander Mercouris noted in a podcast the other day, Kiev’s response to wave upon wave of punishing rocket and drone attacks amounts to fables to the effect that almost all the drones and rockets are shot down.

FULL- Patrick Lawrence: A War of Rhetoric & Reality - scheerpost.com

[cyrille]

As you do not believe the popularity rating on Putin can you please give us the real number?

There is no real number. Those polling outlets are all Russian state controlled.

That really was a startlingly stupid question, even by Iceprick's standards.

Do you think he was aiming for withering sarcasm?

[Iceman123]

Do you think he was aiming for withering sarcasm?

Spot on Cryall, now quick get back to work, someone has omitted a comma on one of the news threads.

[kingwilly]

You are an idiot who is simply pushing your narrative. It has been pointed out to you countless times with evidence that the polls are nothing more than BS but time and time again you push these falsehoods. You have no desire to see the truth as it blows up your shit false narrative.

A correct summation. That’s why it’s best not to engage the fool.

[helge]

When you spew incomprehensible bilge like this Snubski, are you really surprised that you are seen as the forum fuckwit?

He probably is

He was wasted. Clearly drunk as fuck.

He isn't drunk during all of it (drinking Laphroaig ?)

But if we do have to disregard 'drunk' views, a few of Sabang's, quite a few of mine and all of your posts, would have to go.

He is not "my guy", but although lenghty, some of it is worth the time.

[sabang]

He's a Brit, a Cambridge graduate, and born in HK. Not exactly your normal marine sign-up.

[helge]

a Cambridge graduate

That'll explain his 5th column activity



He is actually refreshingly intelligent for his position.

[sabang]

You are only showing up your own ignorance. The best source for independant polling in Russia is the Levada centre. Don't believe me?- then explain this:-

The justice ministry said Levada had been "included in a register of non-commercial organisations that fulfil the functions of a foreign agent" following an unannounced document check.


Legislation passed in 2012 has designated as foreign agents a number of rights groups, including Memorial, and the independent election monitoring group Golos.


The Moscow Times said the latest move followed a complaint by the pro-Kremlin Anti-Maidan movement over alleged US funding of Levada.


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37278649

or this-
Russia moves to silence Levada Centre after damning public opinion polls | StopFake

As it happened, no they were not silenced (just more breathless agitpop from the West). It is however registered as a "Foreign agent" in Russia- ostensibly because it receives foreign funding. This is their webpage, which has a moving total of Putin's popularity rating, and support for the Ukraine war on the front page-

Levada-Center: From opinion to understanding

Or, if that is too much trouble for you-

Do you approve the activities of V. Putin as the President (Prime Minister) of Russia?

Approve

Disapprove

No answer

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Levada-Center : Indicators




You are the ones being propagandised.

[bsnub]

You are the ones being propagandised.

[bsnub]

[sabang]

Fighting the ‘Psyopcracy’



It is a hard thing to combat because it’s not a physical enemy but rather messages that lodge themselves in millions of people’s minds. And it has come to rule over us.

Former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld; U.S. Army General Henry Shelton, chairman, Joint Chief-of-Staff and Senator John Warner (R-VA), at Pentagon press conference. (Jim Watson, USN/Wikimedia Commons)

By Joe Lauria



Cathy Vogan, the executive producer of Consortium News‘ webcast CN Live!, recently coined a new term to describe rule by psyops, or psychological operations: psyopcracy. According to Wikipedia:

“Psychological operations (PSYOP) are operations to convey selected information and indicators to audiences to influence their emotions, motives, and objective reasoning, and ultimately the behavior of governments, organizations, groups, and individuals.

The purpose of United States psychological operations is to induce or reinforce behavior perceived to be favorable to U.S. objectives.”

William Casey, C.I.A. director under Ronald Reagan, said: “We’ll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false.”

Thus the American people are continuously subject to a number of psychological operations otherwise known as “the news.” U.S. intelligence officials feed journalists disinformation to create a false narrative that is intended to mislead the public and cover-up what is actually taking place. The constant reinforcement of these lies becomes entrenched in the public mind and after time comes to be accepted as unquestionable truth. Here’s an explanation of how the C.I.A. did it in Vietnam:



Through such operations, the American people were led to believe for years that the United States was winning in Vietnam, when it was actually losing, as the Pentagon Papers proved. Since then, many examples have followed of completely false stories being planted into people’s minds to start and keep a war going, the fake WMD narrative in Iraq perhaps the most infamous.

Today the war people are being fooled about is in Ukraine. Sometimes a psyop doesn’t involve inserting false information, so much as leaving out what’s true. The American people, and by extension people around the world, have been led to believe that an unprovoked Russian madman started the war last February.

That’s because they are purposely not told that the war actually began in 2014 after a U.S.-backed coup in Kiev led Russian speakers in Donbass to declare independence, after which the coup government militarily attacked them. Other facts are removed from the story, such as Russia’s proposed treaties with the U.S. and NATO last December that would have prevented Russia’s intervention in the Ukrainian civil war. Robert Parry, the founder of this website, in March 2017 wrote the article, “How US Flooded the World with Psyops,” in which he reported for the first time:

“Newly declassified documents from the Reagan presidential library help explain how the U.S. government developed its sophisticated psychological operations capabilities that – over the past three decades – have created an alternative reality both for people in targeted countries and for American citizens, a structure that expanded U.S. influence abroad and quieted dissent at home.

The documents reveal the formation of a psyops bureaucracy under the direction of Walter Raymond Jr., a senior CIA covert operations specialist who was assigned to President Reagan’s National Security Council staff to enhance the importance of propaganda and psyops in undermining U.S. adversaries around the world and ensuring sufficient public support for foreign policies inside the United States.”

So many people are subject to psyops that telling the truth becomes a formidable task. You become the one that is out of step. You are the one that seems to be mad.

Consortium News‘s mission since 1995 has been to fight against psychological operations that have come to rule over Americans, convincing them of all manner of falsehoods, such as that their nation is motivated by humanitarian and democratic principles in the world. And that the Ukraine war was unprovoked.

https://consortiumnews.com/2022/12/2...he-psyopcracy/

[bsnub]

Consortium News

Another shit propaganda source.

[panama hat]

...not the point of the article...why post if you have nothing relevant to add?...

He lurches from one point to another in a very Trump-like manner.

Makes statement
Gets corrected and called out
Has made seven other false statements since and ignores corrections

Rinse, repeat.

[sabang]

That’s because they are purposely not told that the war actually began in 2014 after a U.S.-backed coup in Kiev led Russian speakers in Donbass to declare independence, after which the coup government militarily attacked them. Other facts are removed from the story, such as Russia’s proposed treaties with the U.S. and NATO last December that would have prevented Russia’s intervention in the Ukrainian civil war

So anybody got a comment on this? it's kinda at the core of the matter.

[Loy Toy]

I believe there are a lot of players who are benefiting due to this war and we commoners will never find out who these people are.

And thousands of innocent people are being killed and those cretins will not be punished only having their bank accounts stuffed with blood money.

[misskit]

There was no coup in Ukraine four years ago. The demonstrations which began in Kyiv in November 2013 – called "Maidan", or "Euromaidan" – were not provoked from outside but were a result of the Ukrainian people's frustration with former President Yanukovych's last minute U-turn when, after seven years of negotiation, he refused to sign the EU–Ukraine Association Agreement and halted progress towards Ukraine's closer relationship with the EU as a result of Russian pressure. The protesters' demands included constitutional reform, a stronger role for parliament, formation of a government of national unity, an end to corruption, early presidential elections and an end to violence. The European Union does not recognise the illegal annexation of Crimea and continues to condemn this violation of international law, and that Russia’s illegal actions remain a direct challenge to international security, with grave implications for the international legal order that protects the unity and sovereignty of all States.

Attention Required! | Cloudflare

[pickel]

So anybody got a comment on this?

It's got a tiny sliver of truth in it, and is then spun, sprinkled with bullshit, and shit into the open mouths of useful idiots like you, who then repeatedly smear it all over the forum. But you've already been told that, and just keep drinking the Kool-aid.

[sabang]

This is speculation, but it increasingly seems to me that the hawkish Straussians/ neo-cons actually wanted to goad Russia into war in the Ukraine (either that or totally capitulate), and miscalculated badly yet again. So it's the history of the 21st century redux, at least from the misguided US foreign policy perspective- Iran/ Afghanistan/ Syria/ Libya, now Ukraine. Is it ever going to sink through that this aggressive approach to foreign policy just plain isn't working? That is without even considering the trillions of dollars of taxpayers money wasted on these follies.

[harrybarracuda]

The USA may be 'hurting' Russia- but it is hurting it's allies more.

Yes, better to leave Russia to invade its allies, the former Soviet Bloc countries, and reestablish the USSR.

You idiot.

[harrybarracuda]

This is speculation, but it increasingly seems to me that the hawkish Straussians/ neo-cons actually wanted to goad Russia into war in the Ukraine (either that or totally capitulate).

It's already at war in Ukraine.

You idiot.

[harrybarracuda]

So anybody got a comment on this? it's kinda at the core of the matter.

It's a load of bollocks. Putin is the one who fomented and supported unrest in Eastern Ukraine to gain a pretext for military action.

And you're an idiot.

[sabang]

The breakdown of the Minsk II peace agreement and the continuing diplomatic impasse in the larger geopolitical conflict between the United States, NATO and Russia plunged relations into a deepening crisis and led to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Officials on all sides must have recognized the dynamics of the underlying security dilemma, and yet they failed to take the necessary diplomatic initiatives to resolve the crisis.

Peaceful, diplomatic alternatives have always been available if the parties chose to pursue them, but they did not. Does that mean that all sides deliberately chose war over peace? They would all deny that. Yet all sides apparently now see advantages in a prolonged conflict, despite the relentless daily slaughter, dreadful and deteriorating conditions for millions of civilians, and the unthinkable dangers of full-scale war between NATO and Russia. All sides have convinced themselves they can or must win, and so they keep escalating the war, along with all its impacts and the risks that it will spin out of control. President Biden came to office promising a new era of American diplomacy, but has instead led the United States and the world to the brink of World War III.

Full Article- https://scheerpost.com/2022/12/27/the-ukraine-crisis-is-a-classic-security-dilemma/