Ukraine war mega thread

[sabang]

Well, whatever the real story I still don't understand why he's having a tilt at Kiev. Or why his single largest force (I believe) is deployed there, when Kharkov and Mariupol are still not taken.

[David48atTD]

I have, myself, full confidence that if all do their duty, if nothing is neglected, and if the best arrangements are made, as they are being made, we shall prove ourselves once again able to defend our Ukraine homeland,
to ride out the storm of war, and to outlive the menace of tyranny, the delusion of Putin and, if necessary for years, if necessary alone because NATO will not engage.

---

I have, myself, full confidence that if all do their duty, if nothing is neglected, and if the best arrangements are made, as they are being made, we shall prove ourselves once again able to defend our Island home, to ride out the storm of war, and to outlive the menace of tyranny, if necessary for years, if necessary alone.

At any rate, that is what we are going to try to do. That is the resolve of His Majesty’s Government-every man of them. That is the will of Parliament and the nation. The British Empire and the French Republic, linked together in their cause and in their need, will defend to the death their native soil, aiding each other like good comrades to the utmost of their strength.

Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail.

We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender,

... and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God’s good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old.

[misskit]

First convoy of civilians escapes besieged Mariupol

More than 160 private cars have left the besieged Ukrainian city of Mariupol, local authorities have said, in what would be the first successful evacuation since the city was encircled by Russian troops more than two weeks ago.


“It is known that as of 13:00 [11:00 GMT] more than 160 private cars managed to leave from Mariupol,” the city council said Monday on its official Telegram channel, adding that the convoy has already passed the town of Berdyansk and was on the move towards Zaporizhzhia.

The council also said that a “regime of silence” was being observed in the established humanitarian corridor.


The city has been subject to relentless bombardment since Russian troops surrounded it on March 2. Since then, the roughly 400,000 people who remain in Mariupol have been left with dwindling access to water, food and medicine. Heat, phone services – and electricity in many areas – have been cut.


The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) warned on Sunday that residents of the city faced the “worst-case scenario” unless Moscow and Kyiv agreed to allow access to humanitarian aid.

Previous attempts to establish evacuation corridors to allow civilians to escape the city, and to allow humanitarian aid to enter, have fallen apart as earlier ceasefires collapsed.


The two parties have traded the blame for such failures, with Ukrainian authorities accusing Russia of deliberately opening fire on aid convoys heading towards Mariupol. Russia has blamed Kyiv for sabotaging ceasefire agreements and holding civilians hostages.


On Monday, Mikhail Mizintsev of the Russian Ministry of Defence said that 450 tonnes of medicines, food and essential supplies have been brought to the city after Russia “eliminated the neo-Nazis’ main forces entrenched in the city’s perimeter residential areas,” he said, according to state media news agency TASS.


Moscow has repeatedly justified its offensive in Ukraine, saying that it was conducting a “special military operation” attacking military targets to “de-nazify” the country. Ukraine and its Western allies have said this is a baseless pretext to invade the country.


Ukrainian authorities ave said as many as 2,500 civilians have died so far in the city, a toll that cannot be independently confirmed. Russia has denied targeting civilians.


A pregnant woman, who became a symbol of Ukraine’s suffering when she was photographed being carried from a bombed maternity hospital in Mariupol last week, has died along with her baby, The Associated Press reported on Monday.

First convoy of civilians escapes besieged Mariupol | Russia-Ukraine war News | Al Jazeera

[misskit]

Some 2,000 private cars have already left Mariupol, surrounded by Russian invaders, on March 15, whereas another 2,000 cars are on their way out of the city.

According to Ukrinform, the Mariupol City Council reported this on Telegram.


"It is known that 2,000 cars left Mariupol as of 14:00. People are traveling along the route Mariupol-Manhush-Berdiansk-Tokmak-Vasylivka-Zaporizhia, where they can get the necessary help. Another 2,000 cars are at the exit from the city," the statement reads.


The city council also noted that for their personal safety people need to arrive in Vasylivka no later than 18:00, and those who do not have time need to find a safe place and spend the night in Berdiansk or Tokmak.


On February 24, Russian President Putin announced the beginning of the invasion of Ukraine. Russian troops simultaneously crossed Ukraine's borders from the north, the east and Crimea. They have been destroying cities, killing civilians, shelling and destroying key infrastructure and residential houses.

2,000 private cars already leave Mariupol, another 2,000 on their way out of city - city council

[Backspin]

Russian soldiers showing off captured western weaponry https://twitter.com/RWApodcast/status/1503728954183716868/video/1

[Backspin]

Some fresh photos from various fronts (showing Russian forces with state of the art gear and not the staged photos provided by the Azov battalion.
)


https://twitter.com/RWApodcast/status/1503528094581379073/photo/1

[MarilynMonroe]

Zelensky is about to address Canadian Parliament in a few minutes. He wants us to give more sanctions I believe.

[Cujo]

Skidmark, Why are you championing the Russians?

[MarilynMonroe]

ERROR: The request could not be satisfied

live

[MarilynMonroe]

ERROR: The request could not be satisfied

not sure if this will work..but he is talking now.

[helge]

I never knew much about Zelensky.

Here is an opinion piece from new York Times:

The Comedian-Turned-President Is Seriously in Over His Head


Feb. 21, 2022




President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine, center, surely never imagined the job would get quite so intense.Credit...Oleg Petrasyuk/EPA, via Shutterstock



By Olga Rudenko
Ms. Rudenko is a Ukrainian journalist and the chief editor of The Kyiv Independent.

KYIV, Ukraine — It’s not hard to guess what President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine must be craving right now: one normal day.
The comic-turned-president surely never imagined the job would be quite so intense.

First, he got tangled up in the impeachment of Donald Trump. Then he had to deal with the Covid pandemic. And now he’s facing the prospect of a full-scale invasion by Russia.

Russia, of course, has been waging a war in eastern Ukraine since 2014. But now the threat is total: Up to 190,000 Russian troops have amassed near Ukraine’s borders and in separatist regions, and an invasion, bringing devastation and disaster, could come at any time.
It’s a gravely serious situation. And Mr. Zelensky, a comedian for most of his life, is in over his head.
When Mr. Zelensky took power in Ukraine in 2019, converting his TV fame into a stellar political career, no one knew what to expect.

His opponents said he was so inexperienced, he was bound to be a disaster. His supporters thought that he would break away from the old ways and end corruption. His harshest critics claimed that Mr. Zelensky, a Russian-speaking man born in eastern Ukraine, would all but sell the country off to Russia.
Others said he was an oligarch puppet.




Yet the truth is more prosaic. Mr. Zelensky, the showman and performer, has been unmasked by reality. And it has revealed him to be dispiritingly mediocre.

After his nearly three years in office, it’s clear what the problem is: Mr. Zelensky’s tendency to treat everything like a show. Gestures, for him, are more important than consequences.
Strategic objectives are sacrificed for short-term benefits. The words he uses don’t matter, as long as they are entertaining. And when the reviews are bad, he stops listening and surrounds himself with fans.
He started brightly. Early in his tenure, Mr. Zelensky commanded more power than any of his predecessors had.
His fame and anti-establishment allure landed him with a parliamentary majority, a handpicked cabinet and a mandate for reform. At first, it seemed to be working. His government opened up the farmland market and expanded digital services across the country.
He began an enormous road construction program, proclaiming that he wanted to be remembered as the president who finally built good roads in Ukraine.

But the successes largely stopped there. Mr. Zelensky’s other major project, a campaign he calls “deoligarchization” that’s aimed at capping the influence of the very wealthy, looks more like a P.R. move than serious policy.
Despite his campaign promises, no progress has been made in fighting corruption.

According to Transparency International, Ukraine remains the third-most-corrupt country in Europe, after Russia and Azerbaijan. Anti-corruption and law enforcement agencies are either stalling or run by loyalists appointed by the president.

Corruption just doesn’t seem to worry Mr. Zelensky much — at least when those implicated are close to him.
In March 2020, when his chief of staff’s brother was caught offering government posts for money, Mr. Zelensky did nothing.
More recently, a top lawmaker was caught on camera drunkenly offering a bribe to a police officer at the site of a car crash he might have caused.
The public was outraged, but Mr. Zelensky mumbled a disapproving comment and moved on. Even the president’s beautiful newly built roads are mired in controversy.
The procurement process is thought to be rigged and the prices too high.




Scandals and tolerance for corruption have chipped away at Mr. Zelensky’s popularity. Sixty-two percent of Ukrainians don’t want him to run for re-election, and if an election were held today, he’d garner about 25 percent of the vote — down from the 30 percent he easily won in the first round of the 2019 election.
He’d still be likely to win, but the historic 73 percent he scored in the second round feels like a distant memory.
The president’s tense relationship with the press doesn’t help, either.
A former actor used to the sound of applause, Mr. Zelensky is notoriously thin-skinned when it comes to criticism and challenging questions.
He is visibly irritated by traditional journalists: In November, this fractious approach led to unseemly at a news conference.

It’s not just the media Mr. Zelensky struggles to work with.
His first year in charge was chaotic. His hastily assembled team quickly fell apart, and yesterday’s allies turned into some of his harshest critics. There were constant reshuffles. New ministers were given very little time to prove themselves and were kicked out if they didn’t.

The churn eventually stopped, but at a cost. Mr. Zelensky, stung by the fallout, came to largely rely on the loyal rather than the qualified.
A former movie producer and longtime friend was made chief of staff, joining other friends and confidants of Mr. Zelensky in wielding outsize power.
The security service is overseen by a childhood friend, a former corporate lawyer, and the president’s party in Parliament is run by a loyal former I.T. businessman.
The circle around the president has become an echo chamber.

In the process, Mr. Zelensky has turned into a version of the politician he campaigned against: insular, closed off, surrounded by yes men.
In normal circumstances, that would be bad enough. But now, when Ukraine is menaced by Russia, it may be affecting Mr. Zelensky’s judgment.

That’s become ever clearer in recent weeks. As the West pursued megaphone diplomacy to discourage an invasion, Mr. Zelensky tried to downplay the threat.
But this understandable effort to project calm and steady skittish markets was undermined by his showy style.

In a tone-deaf address in January, for example, a patronizing Mr. Zelensky effectively mocked Ukrainians for their proneness to panic and laughed off a possible invasion.

The very next day, he claimed Russia might invade Kharkiv, Ukraine’s second-largest city. Instead of being comforted, the country was confused. No wonder 53 percent of Ukrainians think Mr. Zelensky won’t be able to defend the country if there is an invasion.




Yet Mr. Zelensky’s behavior, odd to the point of erratic, obscures a truth: He has no good options.
On the one hand, any concession to Russia, particularly over the conflict in eastern Ukraine, would likely bring hundreds of thousands of people to the streets — threatening him with the fate of Viktor Yanukovych, the president overthrown by a revolution in 2014.
Any decisive move against Russia, on the other hand, risks giving the Kremlin a pretext for a deadly invasion.

The show must go on, of course. The crisis continues. But the president’s performance — strained, awkward, often inappropriate — is hardly helping.


From 21-02

If the young lady who wrote this is right, I reckon, that I just met another.....TRUMP

[Backspin]

Skidmark, Why are you championing the Russians?

I dont support the war. I just totally understand why Russia did it

I just know that the US and Nato pushed Russia into this war. They waltzed over Russia's clear red line. There is literally nothing redeeming about the regime in Kiev that took over in 2014, sponsored by the US.

Page through this Twitter account and tell me why you are championing the regime in Kiev ? https://twitter.com/edolinsky Or look at this thread I made months ago and tell me you support the regime in Kiev. Ukraine is a Nazi state

Nazism is a sensitive subject for Russia for a reason. It looks like Russia is going to take all of Ukraine come hell or high water, and criminalize Nazi glorification in Ukraine.

[MarilynMonroe]

Did you watch the live speech, Skidmark? Especially since you are Canadian?
His plea for support was riveting and extremely sad. Personal appeal for help.
So fucking sad.. he wants a no fly zone. NATO says no as it would be an escalation. World War lll would start for sure..

[Troy]

^ Unfortunately the guy is more comedian than politician. He failed to read the seriousness of the situation and is suffering the consequences.

Burn & Learn, as they say, only he's causing misery for his own and others.

That said, Putin should not have lost his cool and invaded.

The problem is, the threat of the 'red button' could apply to every nation he decided to invade afterwards and no action will strengthen the belief of success.


Time for the comedian to say sorry and bring this war to a swift end before it escalates into something no-one can stop.

[MarilynMonroe]

^ Unfortunately the guy is more comedian than politician. He failed to read the seriousness of the situation and is suffering the consequences.

Burn & Learn, as they say, only he's causing misery for his own and others.

Huh? How is this his fault? That makes no sense.

[pickel]

Is that something where you make assumptions and prevent them as facts?

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

Like you say though:

I really don't know how good the Russians are at propaganda

[russellsimpson]

Although I don't have a source it is being reported that Zelensky has publically announced that he is no longer interested in NATO membership. Many people are saying that this is a major development that might change the course of the war. I can't see that this is going to be the case. The story was trotting across the news wires about the time that his spech to the Canadian parliament was happening.

Anybody else picked up on this? Just wondering.

[Troy]

it is being reported that Zelensky has publically announced that he is no longer interested in NATO membership.

Last week's news, reported on several news sites. However, although that might have been successful in January, it will not be enough now the war has started. Putin will need more than this to save face. A Russian corridor to Crimea and the lands to ensure fresh water to Crimea will be the minimum now.

[OhOh]

And Mr. Zelensky, a comedian for most of his life

His TV series, Servants of the people, as a school teacher unexpectantly becoming the countries' leader, was entertaining. Taking the piss out of Ukrainian government and Ukraine society.

All three seasons available here:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...9jiX2DXWGSvv0T

[MarilynMonroe]

How is this his fault?

Still waiting to hear from Troy on this.

Ukraine is a democratic country, and no one deserve this Putin lunatic to invade and try to overtake their country.

[helge]

Anybody else picked up on this?

Last week's news, reported on several news sites.

Well; he repeated it today ......at a meeting in the Joint Expeditionary Force, JEF. (from Reuters)

[russellsimpson]

Thanks Helge.

[russellsimpson]

It could be that in January that might have been enough to avert a war as Troy has pointed out. Now it is going to take a great deal more. We should not rule out the possibility that Putin will do the unimaginable and try to occupy and hold all of the country. At a time like this mistakes can have massive consequences. Pray for peace.

[Troy]

Still waiting to hear from Troy on this.

Ukraine is a democratic country, and no one deserve this Putin lunatic to invade and try to overtake their country.

Zelensky has been skating on thin ice since he was elected in 2019. Russia was already upset with the way Ukraine was heading and rather than try to appease his bigger neighbour he chose to antagonise. Cutting off the fresh water supply to Crimea was always going to lead to a major event.

I suggest you read the following article written shortly after he was elected.

Peace Will Not Come to Europe’s War: Why Ukraine’s New President Zelensky will be Unable to Improve Relations with Russia | Bundesakademie fur Sicherheitspolitik

Zelensky has no experience of politics and was elected more as a protest than anything else. Instead of bringing expertise and experience into his team, he chose others with little experience. This resulted in Ukraine being even less popular than it was in the eyes of Russia and more reason for them to believe it was becoming a joke, or failed state. It is one of the most corrupt countries in the world and the chances of becoming a member of the EU in its present form are much more slender than Turkey, who have been on the sidelines for years.

Zelensky needed to make reforms and he needed to do so without upsetting Russia. In fact, he needed to do so in such a way that Russia looked up rather down at his ideas. Instead, he simply made promises of becoming an EU member and being under the protection of Nato when both were unlikely in the short or medium term. It simply made Russia even more upset than placating them.

Of course Russia should not have invaded, it is an economic disaster for them and for the whole of Europe. However, to think Zelensky is blameless in the whole affair is very naïve.

[helge]

However, to think Zelensky is blameless in the whole affair is very naïve.

Yep

Good post..again