Ukraine war mega thread

[sabang]

Considering that Kiev was the first Capital of Russia, some might consider the whole nation a Russian enclave.

[russellsimpson]

Good point. This damn conflict will just not go away. The more I reflect on things in that neck of the woods the more I realize it's a friggin powder keg.

[sabang]

Common sense does not figure much in geopolitics this century, but here is what I consider the common sense solution-

1- Donetsk republic- let 'em have it! they are Russian speaking Russians spending rubles with free access to neighbouring Russia, but facing trenches, hostility and entrenched military in the other direction. It is well known that the Ukrainian forces are a demoralised, rain sodden rabble. Of course 'do the right thing' and hold a Referendum- but we all know the outcome. The 'jewel' that is won is a pocket of shell damaged houses and aging, damaged factories, with nothing in the way of natural or strategic resources. But that becomes Russia's problem.

2- neo-Ukraine can now begin the process of becoming something more than a sick joke of a nation, with some degree of national unity, and it's young men and finances not tied down in frozen trenches with absolutely no chance of military success. I'm sure the likes of Monsanto & Cargill are itching to get their claws into that famed Ukrainian black soil. Rebuild, with common purpose.

3- Drive home a deal! get Putin to offer inducements in return for this commonsensical outcome, such as agreeing favourable terms for a guaranteed supply of Russian gas, or the transhipment of Russian gas. It is about the Ukrainian governments only real source of major revenue right now.


Seems to me, everyone wins that way- or thinks they do. Why the heck is Donetsk worth fighting over by either Ukraine or US/Nato?

[harrybarracuda]

Common sense does not figure much in geopolitics this century, but here is what I consider the common sense solution-

1- Donetsk republic- let 'em have it! they are Russian speaking Russians spending rubles with free access to neighbouring Russia, but facing trenches, hostility and entrenched military in the other direction. It is well known that the Ukrainian forces are a demoralised, rain sodden rabble. Of course 'do the right thing' and hold a Referendum- but we all know the outcome. The 'jewel' that is won is a pocket of shell damaged houses and aging, damaged factories, with nothing in the way of natural or strategic resources. But that becomes Russia's problem.

2- neo-Ukraine can now begin the process of becoming something more than a sick joke of a nation, with some degree of national unity, and it's young men and finances not tied down in frozen trenches with absolutely no chance of military success. I'm sure the likes of Monsanto & Cargill are itching to get their claws into that famed Ukrainian black soil. Rebuild, with common purpose.

3- Drive home a deal! get Putin to offer inducements in return for this commonsensical outcome, such as agreeing favourable terms for a guaranteed supply of Russian gas, or the transhipment of Russian gas. It is about the Ukrainian governments only real source of major revenue right now.


Seems to me, everyone wins that way- or thinks they do. Why the heck is Donetsk worth fighting over by either Ukraine or US/Nato?

Sucking up to a dictator again I see.

[bsnub]

It is well known that the Ukrainian forces are a demoralised, rain sodden rabble.

Nonsense.

KYIV, Ukraine — When Russia annexed Ukraine's Crimean Peninsula and threw its support behind separatists in the country's east more than seven years ago, Kyiv's underfunded and disorganized armed forces struggled to mount a credible response.

Now, amid fears that a Russian troop buildup near Ukraine's border could signal a possible attack, military experts say Moscow would face stronger resistance this time. But they emphasize that Ukraine would be well short of what it needs to counter Russia's overwhelming land, sea and air superiority.

Still, years of fighting the separatists have given Ukrainian veterans like Col. Viacheslav Vlasenko the battlefield experience for such a fight.

"In case of Russian aggression. I will have no choice — every Ukrainian is ready to die with arms in hands," said the highly decorated 53-year-old Vlasenko. "Ukraine will never become a part of Russia. If we have to prove it to the Kremlin that Ukraine has the right for freedom and independence, we are ready for it."

While Western military assistance has remained limited, Ukraine still received state-of-the-art foreign weaponry, including sophisticated U.S. anti-tank missiles and Turkish drones to provide a heavier punch than they had in years past.

Vlasenko, who spent 4 1/2 years battling the rebels in the east in a conflict that has killed more than 14,000 people, said the country now has thousands of highly motivated and battle-hardened troops.

"We Ukrainians are defending our land, and there is no place for us to retreat," said Vlasenko, adding that he takes his 13-year-old son to target practice so that he knows "who our enemy is and learns to defend himself and fight back."

Earlier this week, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy praised Ukraine's soldiers on a visit to an area near the conflict zone to mark a military holiday.

"Ukrainian servicemen are continuing to perform their most important mission — to protect the freedom and sovereignty of the state from the Russian aggressor," Zelenskyy said.

U.S. intelligence officials have determined that Russia has moved 70,000 troops near Ukraine's border and has made preparations for a possible invasion early next year. Moscow has denied any plans to attack Ukraine, rejecting Western concerns as part of a smear campaign.

On Tuesday, U.S. President Joe Biden warned Russian President Vladimir Putin in a video conference that Moscow would face "economic consequences like you've never seen" if it invades Ukraine, although he noted that Washington would not deploy its military forces there.

Putin reaffirmed his denial of planning to attack Ukraine but emphasized that NATO's possible expansion to Ukraine was a "red line" for Moscow.

If Russia attacks its neighbor, the 1 million-member Russian military would inevitably overwhelm Ukraine's armed forces, which number about 255,000. But in addition to a promised heavy economic blow from Western sanctions, Russia would also stand to suffer significant military losses that would dent Putin's image at home.

Ukrainian veterans and military analysts say the country won't surrender territory without a fight this time, unlike in 2014 in Crimea, where Russian troops in unmarked uniforms faced virtually no resistance in overtaking the Black Sea peninsula.

"Ukraine will not become easy prey for the Russians. There will be a bloodbath," Vlasenko said. "Putin will get hundreds and thousands of coffins floating from Ukraine to Russia."

Weeks after annexing Crimea, Russia began supporting the separatist uprising in Ukraine's eastern industrial heartland, known as the Donbas. Ukraine and the West have accused Russia of supplying the rebels with troops and weapons — accusations that Moscow has denied, saying that any Russians fighting there were volunteers.

A series of bruising military defeats forced Ukraine to sign a 2015 peace agreement brokered by France and Germany that envisaged broad autonomy for the separatist regions and a sweeping amnesty for the rebels. The deal that was seen by many in Ukraine as a betrayal of its national interests. While it has helped end large-scale fighting, frequent skirmishes have continued amid a political deadlock as Ukraine and Russia have traded accusations.

Mykola Sunhurovskyi, a top military analyst for the Kyiv-based Razumkov Center independent think-tank, said the Ukrainian military has made much progress in recent years, thanks to Western-equipment and training.

"The army today is much stronger than it was in early 2014, and Russia will face serious resistance," he said.

The Western aid included Javelin anti-tank missiles and patrol boats supplied by the United States. The U.S. and other NATO forces have conducted joint drills with the Ukrainian military in exercises that have vexed Russia. Last month, Ukraine signed an agreement with the U.K. for building naval bases on the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov.

Still, Sunhurovskyi argued that the Western assistance is not enough.

"The military aid given by the West is far from what Ukraine needs," Sunhurovskyi said, adding that its slow pace was also a key problem. "The assistance is needed within two months, not two or three years. There are huge gaps in the Ukrainian military potential that need to be taken care of."

He pointed in particular to Ukraine's air defenses.

"The air defense system isn't ready for repelling massive airstrikes by Russia," Sunhurovskyi said, adding that Ukraine also lacks advanced electronic warfare systems and has a shortage of artillery and missiles.

Morale is not a problem, he said.

"From the point of view of combat spirit, Ukraine is ready for war, but there are issues with the technological level of the Ukrainian military, which is below what is needed to deter Russia from launching an attack," he said.

Zelenskyy said Ukraine's military "has come a difficult way to the creation of a highly capable and highly organized combat structure that is confident of its potential and capable of derailing any aggressive plans by the enemy." On Thursday, he spoke with Biden, who briefed him on the discussion with Putin.

The analysts also said Russia would have to be prepared for a nationwide resistance campaign from Ukrainian veterans after any invasion.

"If it launches an aggression, Russia will face a large-scale guerrilla war in Ukraine, and the infrastructure for it has already been set," said Volodymyr Fesenko, head of the Kyiv-based Penta think tank. "Thousands of Ukrainian soldiers served in the east, and there is a local hero in every courtyard who fought the separatists and the Russians."

Ukraine would put up a stronger fight against Russia than last time, experts say : NPR

[panama hat]

Russia population of 150 million. Military 1 million. etc etc etc etc . . . Ukraine is fucked, but so would Russia be - economically afterwards. Lots of Yukie diaspora in high positions . . . lots of lobbying.


Russia, like China, would be mad to do anything stupid . . . but then neither have to answer to their people

[bsnub]

Ukraine is fucked

Well, obviously, but the point of the article is that Russia will pay a high price on the battlefield even though victory is certain.

[panama hat]

but the point of the article is that Russia will pay a high price on the battlefield

No doubt . . . and afterwards as well.

[OhOh]

Russia will pay a high price on the battlefield

Which battlefield, Russian territory or Ukraine?

[bsnub]

Which battlefield, Russian territory or Ukraine?

Why do you persist in being a fucking idiot?

[OhOh]

Why do you persist in being a fucking idiot?

Clarity is useful to understand your drunken rants.

Moving on.

G7 unites behind push to prevent Russia-Ukraine crisis

December 12, 2021

By William James and Humeyra Pamuk

"Washington is sending its top diplomat for Europe, Assistant Secretary Karen Donfried, to Ukraine and Russia on December 13-15 to meet with senior government officials.

"Assistant Secretary Donfried will emphasize that we can make diplomatic progress on ending the conflict in the Donbass through implementation of the Minsk agreements in support of the Normandy Format," the U.S. State Department said in a statement.

G7 unites behind push to prevent Russia-Ukraine crisis | ReutersGlad to hear the G7 speaking in one voice and acknowledging the route forward. to resolve the conflict, is by implementation of The Minsk Agreements between Ukraine and the Donbass people, and the Normandy Format at last.

I suspect The LORD will approve of their decision and public announcement and looks forward to their full delivery of the agreements.

[bsnub]

Clarity is useful to understand your drunken rants.

It is not a drunken rant. Nobody is going to invade Russia, hence why I called you a moron. There will be only one battlefield if there is one, and it will be Ukraine.

[Chico]

Surprised Biden hasn't sent his son

[harrybarracuda]

Why do you persist in being a fucking idiot?

Lack of choice?

[OhOh]

There will be only one battlefield if there is one, and it will be Ukraine.

The "battlefield" you so longingly desired has evaporated:

Readout of President Biden’s Call with President Zelenskyy of Ukraine

"President Joseph R. Biden, Jr. spoke today with President Volodymyr Zelenskyy of Ukraine. ....

1. The leaders called on Russia to de-escalate tensions ....

2. agreed that diplomacy is the best way to make meaningful progress on conflict resolution.

3. President Biden underscored the readiness of the United States to engage in support of confidence-building measures to advance the implementation of the Minsk Agreements, in support of the Normandy Format."

Access Denied

1. Russian military de-escalation, in a far ranging, inclusive diplomatic offer :

Foreign Ministry statement on dialogue with the United States and other Western countries regarding security guarantees

10 December 202118:10

"We note US President Joseph Biden’s readiness expressed at the December 7, 2021 talks with President Vladimir Putin to establish a serious dialogue on issues related to ensuring the security of the Russian Federation. Such a dialogue is urgently needed today when the relations between Russia and the collective West continue to decay and have approached a critical line. At the same time, numerous loose interpretations of our position have emerged in recent days. In this connection we feel it is necessary to once again clarify the following.

Escalating a confrontation with our country is absolutely unacceptable.

As a pretext, the West is using the situation in Ukraine, where it embarked on encouraging Russophobia and justifying the actions of the Kiev regime to undermine the Minsk agreements and prepare for a military scenario in Donbass.Instead of reigning in their Ukrainian protégés, NATO countries are pushing Kiev towards aggressive steps. There can be no alternative interpretation of the increasing number of unplanned exercises by the United States and its allies in the Black Sea. NATO members’ aircraft, including strategic bombers, regularly make provocative flights and dangerous manoeuvres in close proximity to Russia’s borders.

The militarisation of Ukraine’s territory and pumping it with weapons are ongoing. The course has been chosen of drawing Ukraine into NATO, which is fraught with the deployment of strike missile systems there with a minimal flight time to Central Russia, and other destabilising weapons.

Such irresponsible behaviour creates grave military risks for all parties involved, up to and including a large-scale conflict in Europe.At the same time, statements are made that the issue of Ukraine’s hypothetical NATO membership concerns exclusively Kiev and the Alliance, and that nobody should interfere in this process.

Let us recall, however, that NATO countries, apart from the Washington Treaty, have obligations regarding the indivisible security in the Euro-Atlantic and the entire OSCE space. This principle was initially proclaimed in the Helsinki Final Act and was later reaffirmed in the Charter of Paris for a New Europe of 1990, which states: “Security is indivisible and the security of every participating State is inseparably linked to that of all the others”, whereas in 1999, The Charter for European Security was adopted at the OSCE Istanbul summit, which stressed that the participating States “will not strengthen their security at the expense of the security of other States.” All these documents were signed by the leaders of the OSCE member-states, including all NATO countries.

However, in violation of the principle of indivisible security – as well as in violation of the promises given to the Soviet leaders – NATO has been persistently moving eastwards all these years while neglecting Moscow’s concerns. Furthermore, each new member added to NATO’s frenzied anti-Russia charge.We have been saying for a long time that such developments are inadmissible. Over the past decades we have offered a number of times to render the principle of comprehensive and indivisible security in the Euro-Atlantic a legally binding status since the West is obviously inclined to disregard its political obligations.

However, we were invariably refused. In this connection, as President Vladimir Putin stressed, we insist that serious long-term legal guarantees are provided, which would exclude NATO’s further advancement to the east and deployment of weapons on Russia’s western borders which are a threat to Russia.

This must be done within a specific timeframe and on the basis of the principle of comprehensive and indivisible security.

To ensure the vital interests of European security, it is necessary to officially disavow the decision taken at the 2008 NATO summit in Bucharest about “Ukraine and Georgia becoming NATO members” as contrary to the commitment undertaken by all the OSCE participating States “not to strengthen their security at the expense of the security of other States.”

We insist on the adoption of a legally binding agreement regarding the US and other NATO member countries’ non-deployment of strike weapons systems which threaten the territory of the Russian Federation on the territories of adjacent countries, both members and non-members of NATO.

We also insist on receiving a concrete response from NATO to our previous proposals on decreasing tension in Europe, including the following points:

- withdrawal of regions for operative military exercises to an agreed distance from Russia-NATO contact line

;- coordination of the closest approach point of combat ships and aircraft to prevent dangerous military activities, primarily in the Baltic and Black Sea regions;

- renewal of regular dialogue between the defence ministries in the Russia-US and Russia-NATO formats.

We call on Washington to join Russia’s unilateral moratorium on the deployment of surface short- and intermediate-range missiles in Europe, to agree on and introduce measures for the verification of reciprocal obligations.

Russia will shortly present draft international legal documents in the indicated areas to launch talks in respective formats. In particular, we will submit a comprehensive proposal on legal security guarantees as part of preparations for the next round of the Russia-US dialogue on strategic stability.

We will advocate holding an in-depth discussion of the military aspects of ensuring security via defence ministries with the engagement of the foreign ministries of Russia and NATO countries.

We believe that the OSCE, which includes all countries of the Euro-Atlantic region, should not to stay on the sidelines of discussions on addressing the issues of Europe’s security.

We urge our partners to carefully examine Russia’s proposals and start serious talks on agreements that will provide a fair and sustainable balance of interests in our common space."

https://www.mid.ru/en/foreign_policy...ent/id/4991520

2. Diplomacy,

NaGastan seeks a diplomatic/not a military solution.

Russian offer: see 1.

To ensure, We insist, We call on, We advocate, We believe, We urge.

3. Biden Statement above: "Implementation of the Minsk Agreements, in support of the Normandy Format."

NaGastan, accepting the Minsk Agreements as the formulae to adhere to.

The European leader, now Merkel has left, speaks:

Macron warns against "self-fulfilling" prophecies on Ukraine-Russia risks

December 10, 20219:33 PM

"French President Emmanuel Macron warned on Friday about the risk of self-fulfilling prophecies, following a U.S. intelligence assessment that Russia could be planning a multi-front offensive on Ukraine as early as next year.

"I think that our primary objective is to avoid any unnecessary tension, what I will call self-fulfilling news," Macron said, when asked about that assessment.

"What we all want, Europeans and Americans, is to show that we are paying close attention to the situation," he told a joint news conference with Germany's new Chancellor Olaf Scholz. read more

Macron said he had spoken to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy earlier on Friday and that they would discuss new initiatives to unlock peace talks on the conflict in eastern Ukraine when they meet next week.

"We will launch further activities to make sure that Ukraine has a good perspective," said Scholz, who was making his first official visit as chancellor.

"We have a good basis that needs to be revived - for example the talks in the Normandy format," he added, referring to discussions between Germany, France, Russia and Ukraine meant to help solving the crisis.

Macron warns against "self-fulfilling" prophecies on Ukraine-Russia risks | Reuters

Jaw, Jaw, not War, War,is the route.

The NATO countries have been offered, a non-military option by Russia, to digest, discuss and diplomatically reply to.

As so often shown by NATO only winning wars against small Caribbean island's policemen and Africans is very different to attacking Russia.

[NamPikToot]

The NATO countries have been offered, a non-military option by Russia, to digest, discuss and diplomatically reply to.

Oh that's decent of them.

[/QUOTE]As so often shown by NATO only winning wars against small Caribbean island's policemen and Africans is very different to attacking Russia.[/QUOTE]

Russia's bloodless take over of many countries to form the USSR and its decades of civil repression was also a shining example.

You do love love your one sided perspective OhOh

[OhOh]

Why do you persist in being a fucking idiot?

You may wish to read or comment on this:

“A very short period.” How long will the Ukrainian army hold out in the war against Russia

Sugar Mizzy December 11, 2021

Enough for 30 minutes

"American edition. New York Times…

The media continues to insist that, according to US intelligence, the Russian Federation is allegedly preparing an offensive against Ukraine with the involvement of 175 thousand troops and regular military equipment.

Robert Lee, professor at King’s College London and veteran of the United States Marine Corps, expressed the opinion that in this development of events, most of the Ukrainian army would be destroyed by Russian troops in the shortest possible time, since Ukraine does not have serious missile defense systems.

in particular, combat-ready submarines and frigates in the Black Sea armed with cruise missiles, as well as Iskander-M ballistic missiles.

“During the first 30-40 minutes”,

– says General Lee."

“A very short period.” How long will the Ukrainian army hold out in the war against Russia – europe-cities.com

Original from pay-walled NYT:


Ukraine Commanders Say a Russian Invasion Would Overwhelm Them

Ukraine Commanders Say a Russian Invasion Would Overwhelm Them - The New York Times

[OhOh]

You do love love your one sided perspective OhOh

Absorbing a range of sides enables one to decide reality. I prefer diplomatic solutions as opposed to splattering children the world over, day after, day after, day.

It seems more acceptable to me, does it not you?

Some are content with media sound-bites from NaGastani sources. Not renowned for consistency or remaining valid for more than one day, after being headlined. Misspeaking is an NaGastani expression, yes?

I provide a perspective from multiple other official sources, depending on the topic.

You can continue with reading and discussing one viewpoint, however there are other viewpoints that are equally valid.

To use a familiar Thai expression, "It's up to you", which one you are more comfortable with.

Russia's bloodless take over of many countries to form the USSR and its decades of civil repression was also a shining example.

As you suggest "was".

NaGastani genocides, from Native American Indians in .... to splattering Afghani children, last month, and they continue.

[NamPikToot]

As you suggest "was".

well

The NATO countries have been offered, a non-military option by Russia

seems like the little bear is the one issuing veiled threats to revisit past glories.

[OhOh]

^
They are not threats, they are political statements from one country's diplomats to another, in this instance, all NATO members' diplomats. Varying from strident 'demands" to persistent soft 'urges".

The nuances of which, are well understood by the world's diplomatic issuers and receivers.

[harrybarracuda]

The EU is meeting to agree a list of sanctions to dissuade Vlad from being a dick again.

[Backspin]

Nonsense.

KYIV, Ukraine — When Russia annexed Ukraine's Crimean Peninsula and threw its support behind separatists in the country's east more than seven years ago, Kyiv's underfunded and disorganized armed forces struggled to mount a credible response.

Now, amid fears that a Russian troop buildup near Ukraine's border could signal a possible attack, military experts say Moscow would face stronger resistance this time. But they emphasize that Ukraine would be well short of what it needs to counter Russia's overwhelming land, sea and air superiority.

Still, years of fighting the separatists have given Ukrainian veterans like Col. Viacheslav Vlasenko the battlefield experience for such a fight.

"In case of Russian aggression. I will have no choice — every Ukrainian is ready to die with arms in hands," said the highly decorated 53-year-old Vlasenko. "Ukraine will never become a part of Russia. If we have to prove it to the Kremlin that Ukraine has the right for freedom and independence, we are ready for it."

While Western military assistance has remained limited, Ukraine still received state-of-the-art foreign weaponry, including sophisticated U.S. anti-tank missiles and Turkish drones to provide a heavier punch than they had in years past.

Vlasenko, who spent 4 1/2 years battling the rebels in the east in a conflict that has killed more than 14,000 people, said the country now has thousands of highly motivated and battle-hardened troops.

"We Ukrainians are defending our land, and there is no place for us to retreat," said Vlasenko, adding that he takes his 13-year-old son to target practice so that he knows "who our enemy is and learns to defend himself and fight back."

Earlier this week, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy praised Ukraine's soldiers on a visit to an area near the conflict zone to mark a military holiday.

"Ukrainian servicemen are continuing to perform their most important mission — to protect the freedom and sovereignty of the state from the Russian aggressor," Zelenskyy said.

U.S. intelligence officials have determined that Russia has moved 70,000 troops near Ukraine's border and has made preparations for a possible invasion early next year. Moscow has denied any plans to attack Ukraine, rejecting Western concerns as part of a smear campaign.

On Tuesday, U.S. President Joe Biden warned Russian President Vladimir Putin in a video conference that Moscow would face "economic consequences like you've never seen" if it invades Ukraine, although he noted that Washington would not deploy its military forces there.

Putin reaffirmed his denial of planning to attack Ukraine but emphasized that NATO's possible expansion to Ukraine was a "red line" for Moscow.

If Russia attacks its neighbor, the 1 million-member Russian military would inevitably overwhelm Ukraine's armed forces, which number about 255,000. But in addition to a promised heavy economic blow from Western sanctions, Russia would also stand to suffer significant military losses that would dent Putin's image at home.

Ukrainian veterans and military analysts say the country won't surrender territory without a fight this time, unlike in 2014 in Crimea, where Russian troops in unmarked uniforms faced virtually no resistance in overtaking the Black Sea peninsula.

"Ukraine will not become easy prey for the Russians. There will be a bloodbath," Vlasenko said. "Putin will get hundreds and thousands of coffins floating from Ukraine to Russia."

Weeks after annexing Crimea, Russia began supporting the separatist uprising in Ukraine's eastern industrial heartland, known as the Donbas. Ukraine and the West have accused Russia of supplying the rebels with troops and weapons — accusations that Moscow has denied, saying that any Russians fighting there were volunteers.

A series of bruising military defeats forced Ukraine to sign a 2015 peace agreement brokered by France and Germany that envisaged broad autonomy for the separatist regions and a sweeping amnesty for the rebels. The deal that was seen by many in Ukraine as a betrayal of its national interests. While it has helped end large-scale fighting, frequent skirmishes have continued amid a political deadlock as Ukraine and Russia have traded accusations.

Mykola Sunhurovskyi, a top military analyst for the Kyiv-based Razumkov Center independent think-tank, said the Ukrainian military has made much progress in recent years, thanks to Western-equipment and training.

"The army today is much stronger than it was in early 2014, and Russia will face serious resistance," he said.

The Western aid included Javelin anti-tank missiles and patrol boats supplied by the United States. The U.S. and other NATO forces have conducted joint drills with the Ukrainian military in exercises that have vexed Russia. Last month, Ukraine signed an agreement with the U.K. for building naval bases on the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov.

Still, Sunhurovskyi argued that the Western assistance is not enough.

"The military aid given by the West is far from what Ukraine needs," Sunhurovskyi said, adding that its slow pace was also a key problem. "The assistance is needed within two months, not two or three years. There are huge gaps in the Ukrainian military potential that need to be taken care of."

He pointed in particular to Ukraine's air defenses.

"The air defense system isn't ready for repelling massive airstrikes by Russia," Sunhurovskyi said, adding that Ukraine also lacks advanced electronic warfare systems and has a shortage of artillery and missiles.

Morale is not a problem, he said.

"From the point of view of combat spirit, Ukraine is ready for war, but there are issues with the technological level of the Ukrainian military, which is below what is needed to deter Russia from launching an attack," he said.

Zelenskyy said Ukraine's military "has come a difficult way to the creation of a highly capable and highly organized combat structure that is confident of its potential and capable of derailing any aggressive plans by the enemy." On Thursday, he spoke with Biden, who briefed him on the discussion with Putin.

The analysts also said Russia would have to be prepared for a nationwide resistance campaign from Ukrainian veterans after any invasion.

"If it launches an aggression, Russia will face a large-scale guerrilla war in Ukraine, and the infrastructure for it has already been set," said Volodymyr Fesenko, head of the Kyiv-based Penta think tank. "Thousands of Ukrainian soldiers served in the east, and there is a local hero in every courtyard who fought the separatists and the Russians."

Ukraine would put up a stronger fight against Russia than last time, experts say : NPR

Seeing Americans hype the Ukraine army while degrading the Russian army at the same time is just hilarious. Russia has nuclear subs and 5th gen fighters , hypersonic weapons and a 5th gen tank.

[panama hat]

Russia has nuclear subs and 5th gen fighters , hypersonic weapons and a 5th gen tank.

Did you just ejaculate?

As so often shown by NATO only winning wars against small Caribbean island's policemen and Africans

I can't quite remember any time NATO invaded Africa or the Carib . . .

Are you fucked up again, tencent?

[OhOh]

EU is meeting to agree a list of sanctions

European Union stands united on Russia sanctions, top diplomat says

By Robin Emmott and Sabine Siebold

December 14, 2021


"BRUSSELS, Dec 13 (Reuters) - European Union foreign ministers agreed on Monday that any Russia aggression against Ukraine would trigger economic sanctions on Moscow, trying to keep up the pressure after similar statements by NATO and the Group of Seven nations."

"The ministers, all of them, have been very clear today that any aggression against Ukraine will come with political consequences and with a high economic cost for Russia."
The EU and the United States imposed economic sanctions on Russia in July 2014, targeting its energy, banking and defence sectors, and is considering further measures

EU diplomats told Reuters discussions were focused on a potential gradual increase of any sanctions, ranging from possible travel bans and asset freezes on Russian politicians to banning financial and banking links with Russia.
Sanctioning the Nord Stream 2 pipeline between Russia and Germany to prevent it becoming operational was also an option, as well as targeting more Russian state-owned defence and energy companies or cancelling natural gas contracts."

European Union stands united on Russia sanctions, top diplomat says | Reuters

1. The 2014 sanction efforts certainly hurt Russia, eh.

Russia turned it into a reason to upgrade their economy and profitably turned its focus eastwards.


As for financial links, how will the west pay for any imports of Russian energy and food?

2. NS2 cancellation calls from German green party, who have 14% of the popular vote, will hurt who? The NS2 consortium owners, Gazprom international projects LLC, Engie, OMV, Shell, Uniper, Wintershall DEA or the citizens of Europe ....

One suspects there is no current alternative that is able to keep the lights on in Europe, the citizens warm and industry running.

At least the Russian South Stream connected countries will be OK.

As we've seen, as usual, NaGastan/Qatar/ME prefer Asian LNG profits, rather than European citizens human rights.

Along with NaGastan continuing to import Russian oil and gas.

The European move to Spot Markets has been a disaster for its citizens human rights.

[harrybarracuda]

Despite all that waffle, Vlad knows he's in trouble if he escalates.