Ukraine war mega thread

[panama hat]

"Former Soviet Allies and neighbors are moving away from Russia."
Just wonder why?

Yea, hardly an encroachment . . . they want protection from Russia, having been subjugated by these animals for decades.

^^ Never enuff bluddy lebensraum, e'hhh Herman.

I'd suggest you use terms that you don't understand sparingly . . . read up what constitutes 'Lebensraum' the get back to us.

HTG are your lot going to front up for once? or are you going to hide behind others skirts looking after your industrial base

Why are you being a fucking idiot again? It's innate, isn't it . . . or are you replacing chico?

[OhOh]

They have no historic claim to the land any more than the Russians in the crimea that displaced the tartars who were forcibly removed by Stalin.

When did the American Indians get to vote to throw out the invaders?

When did the OZ aborigines get to vote to throw out the invaders?

When did the NZ Māori get to vote to throw out the invaders?

When did the Philippine Austronesian/Negritos get to vote to throw out the invaders?

When did the Diego Garcia Austronesian citizens get to vote to throw out the invaders?

When did ....

[HermantheGerman]

HTG are your lot going to front up for once? or are you going to hide behind others skirts looking after your industrial base

We are not allowed to play with the big boys anymore due to are past excursions (Thank God!)
But to be honest with you, I think you are better off with out us.
We are as useless to Europe as the U.K. was in WW II.

[HermantheGerman]

You are stupid. If you want to compare trade bloc to trade bloc, the Eurasian Economic Union is Ukraine's biggest trade partner. Not the EU.

What the hell is "Eurasian Economic Union"

One of Putin's great achievements


You sure take the cake when it comes to being the dumbest poster here on TD. How long did it take you to google this useless bit of information?

[NamPikToot]

We are not allowed to play with the big boys anymore due to are past excursions (Thank God!)
But to be honest with you, I think you are better off with out us.
We are as useless to Europe as the U.K. was in WW II.

So who in the EU is going to help out Ukraine. The US and U K have said they wil not send troops so surely this is a moment for the EU to stand up and do something more than just sit in Brussels making up rules.

[Hugh Cow]

When did the American Indians get to vote to throw out the invaders?

When did the OZ aborigines get to vote to throw out the invaders?

When did the NZ Māori get to vote to throw out the invaders?

When did the Philippine Austronesian/Negritos get to vote to throw out the invaders?

When did the Diego Garcia Austronesian citizens get to vote to throw out the invaders?

When did ....

So then in your mind because of the wrongs done in the past and with all the knowledge we now have in hindsight, you believe It is justified for Russia to keep doing the same thing in the present. Do you have any idea at all how stupid that makes you look?

[OhOh]

So then in your mind because of the wrongs done in the past and with all the knowledge we now have in hindsight, you believe It is justified for Russia to keep doing the same thing in the present.

You introduce Russian actions against the then indigenous people of a country, way back when.

I listed instances of indigenous peoples being forced to bow at the point of ships cannons, guns, rifles and force, to an invader.

None of the indigenous peoples had any say in whether acceptance or not was a choice, many were slaughtered, splattered in today's vernacular. Fear of their lives was the daily threat. Those countries remain under foreign control today.

Russia did not do the same.

The indigenous peoples, who were fearing for of their lives was the daily threat, held a democratic vote.

The result was an overwhelming demand, to ask Russia if they could rejoin what the indigenous people considered to be their homeland.

The Russian government agreed, and they all became equal Russian citizens. Not sent wandering the prairies with their tents on their backs.

Your knowledge of history is somewhat meagre, 10 or 200 years ago.

Do you have any idea at all how stupid that makes you look?

Buy a mirror.

Last edited by Hugh Cow; Today at 03:11 PM.

As for burning witches no, they put their children in "homes" and sold their children off to foreigners.

[bsnub]

The indigenous peoples, who were fearing for of their lives was the daily threat, held a democratic vote.

You are a blinkered moron of epic proportion.

[sabang]

Actually, I think Putin has been the best and most responsible player in this whole debacle. Not-

• Nato
• EU
• USA
• the retard Clown regime in Ukraine
• Ukrainian neo-fascists
• the pathetic western media, or what is left of it

Most of the western media narrative is pathetic bullshit, frankly.


This Western (!) article is abut the best I've read, and gives the unbiased reader some inkling of the actual situation, on the ground there-

Rebels without a Cause: Russia’s Proxies in Eastern Ukraine | Crisis Group

[pickel]

Actually, I think Putin has been the best and most responsible player in this whole debacle.

Putting 100K troops on the border is being responsible? You've lost your mind.

[NamPikToot]

Putting 100K troops on the border is being responsible? You've lost your mind.

Indeed much like moving missiles to cuba

[sabang]

^^ 200km from border, in response to Nato military exercises & Ukrainian troop movements. SOP.

[bsnub]

200km from border

Oh, really?

New satellite images captured by a private U.S. company show that Russia has continued to build up its forces in annexed Crimea and near Ukraine in recent weeks while pressing the United States for talks over security guarantees it is seeking.

The images released late on Thursday showed a base in Crimea, which Russia annexed from Ukraine in 2014, packed with hundreds of armoured vehicles and tanks as of Dec. 13. A Maxar satellite image of the same base in October showed the base was half empty.

Maxar said a new brigade-level unit, comprised of several hundred armoured vehicles that include BMP-series infantry fighting vehicles, tanks, self-propelled artillery and air defence equipment, had arrived at the Russian garrison.

"Over the past month, our high-resolution satellite imagery has observed a number of new Russian deployments in Crimea as well as in several training areas in western Russia along the periphery of the Ukraine border," Maxar said in a statement.

It cited increased activity at three sites in Crimea and at five sites in western Russia.

Odd, but I had no idea that Crimea was 200 km from the border.

in response to Nato military exercises & Ukrainian troop movements.

BS

[HermantheGerman]

Russia did not do the same.
The indigenous peoples, who were fearing for of their lives was the daily threat, held a democratic vote.

Boy do you have your history screwed up. What school did you visit?

The Battle of Sitka!

Do you need more examples?

[sabang]

I believe there are 6-7 military bases in Russian Crimea- including the Black Sea fleet HQ. They have been there since before Crimea reunited with Russia after the Maidan revolution, and probably most since before Crimea was even signed away to become part of Ukraine SSR in the 1950's.

So basically, my guess is that this is just the latest western media ploy to finesse the bogus narrative, now that it is commonly realised that the "Soviet troops being massed on the border" as we were breathlessly assured, were in fact some 200km away- which is not exactly the sort of panic material the MSM was flogging it as. So now it's like, oh no Russian military equipment in a Russian military base in Russian Crimea! As if. Like, Yawwwwn.

I'm glad actually that Putin is providing 'implied protection' for the Donbass Russians- I would hate to think what massacres might happen if the Ukrainian neo-Nazis were allowed to march in there, and the Russian military stood by. They are not very nice people.

[misskit]

Russia withdraws troops from regions near Ukraine

Over 10,000 Russian soldiers are now heading back to their home bases following month-long drills held in various regions, including those bordering Ukraine.

The pull back was announced by the Southern Military District Command, on Saturday, with Interfax reporting that forces have finished their “operational coordination” exercise. It added that more than 10,000 servicemen would now “march to their home bases from the territory of joint training ranges.”

The command confirmed that the drills, which lasted for about a month, were held in various regions, including Crimea and Rostov Oblast, which border Ukraine. The news comes amid tensions between Moscow and NATO over supposed Russian troop buildup near the country.

The Western media and some officials have been repeatedly pointing to the allegedly growing number of Russian soldiers and hardware deployed to the regions bordering Ukraine. On Thursday Bloomberg reported on yet more allegations of beefing up, citing data provided by Western defense intelligence firm Janes.


The news circulating in the media prompted Washington and its allies to warn Moscow of severe consequences in the case it does attack Ukraine. Russia repeatedly denied such plans even existed and, in turn, requested security guarantees from NATO and the US in the form of a set of proposals sent to Brussels and Washington.

In early December, the head of the Russian General Staff, Army General Valery Gerasimov, said that Moscow does not plan any offensive actions, adding that NATO pays “excessive attention” to “routine military practices” taking place within Russia’s own sovereign territory.


The list of the guarantees included a demand that NATO won’t expand eastward into states that were formerly a part of the USSR. Such a demand was already rejected by NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg in an interview with the German dpa news agency but both NATO and Washington expressed their readiness to negotiate with Russia on security.


Some of the other troop movements that sparked such extreme concerns in the West were apparently also linked to routine drills. In early December, Russia’s Western Military District Command announced that sniper exercises had started in several regions, including the Belgorod and Voronezh regions bordering Ukraine. These were not the only ones to host such drills, since the Smolensk region bordering Belarus was on the list as well.

Russia withdraws troops from regions near Ukraine — RT Russia & Former Soviet Union

[OhOh]

^

Can anyone trust RT though?

Merry Christmas.

[OhOh]

An article from:

Jack F. Matlock is a former U.S. ambassadorto Czechoslovakia and the
SovietUnion

"He was a confidant of both RonaldReagan and Mikhail Gorbachev.

He is now a Visiting Scholarat Duke Universityanda speaker and panelist for the UNC Krasno Global Events Series."

His conclusion, more at the source.

Ukraine: Tragedy of a Nation Divided(1800 words)

Jack F. Matlock, Jr. December 14, 2021

.....

"When I hear comments now such as, “Russia has no right to claim a ‘sphere of influence,’” I am puzzled. It is not a question of legal “rights” but of probable consequences. It is as if someone announces, “We never passed a law of gravity so we can ignore it.”

No one is saying that Ukraine does not have a “right” to apply for NATO membership. Of course it does. The question is whether the members of the alliance would serve their own interest if they agreed. In fact they would assume a very dangerous liability.

I point this out as a veteran of the Cuban missile crisis of 1962. At that time I was assigned to the American embassy in Moscow and it fell to my lot to translate some of Khrushchev’s messages to President John Kennedy.

Why is it relevant? Just this: in terms of international law, the Soviet Union had a “right” to place nuclear weapons on Cuba when the Cuban government requested them, the more so since the United States had deployed nuclear missiles of comparable range that could strike the USSR from Turkey. But it was an exceedingly dangerous move since the United States had total military dominance of the Caribbean and under no circumstances would tolerate the deployment of nuclear missiles in its backyard. Fortunately for both countries and the rest of the world, Kennedy and Khrushchev were able to defuse the situation. Only later did we learn how close we came to a nuclear exchange.

As for the future, the only thing that will convince Moscow to withdraw its military support from the separatist regimes in the Donbas will be Kyiv’s willingness to implement the Minsk agreement. As for the Crimea, it is likely to be a de facto part of Russia for the foreseeable future, whether or not the West recognizes that as “legal.”

For decades, the U.S. and most of its Western allies refused to recognize the incorporation of the
three Baltic countries in the Soviet Union. This eventually was an important factor in their liberation.

However, the Crimea is quite different in one key respect: most of its people, being Russian, prefer to be in Russia. In fact, one can argue that it is in the political interest of Ukrainian nationalists to have Crimea in Russia. Without the votes from Crimea, Viktor Yanukovich would never have been elected president.

One persistent U.S. demand is that Ukraine’s territorial integrity be restored. Indeed, the U.S. is party to the Budapest Memorandum in which Russia guaranteed Ukraine’s territorial integrity in return for Ukraine’s transfer of Soviet nuclear weapons to Russia for destruction in accord with U.S.-Soviet arms control agreements. What the U.S. demand ignores is that, under traditional international law, agreements remain valid rebus sic stantibus (things remaining the same).

When the Budapest memorandum was signed in 1994 there was no plan to expand NATO to the east and Gorbachev had been assured in 1990 that the alliance would not expand. When in fact it did expand right up to Russia’s borders, Russia was confronted with a radically different strategic
situation than existed when the Budapest agreement was signed. Furthermore, Russians would argue that the U.S. is interested in territorial integrity only when its interests are served.

American governments have a record of ignoring it when convenient, as when it and its NATO allies violated Serbian territorial integrity by creating and then recognizing an independent Kosovo. Also, the United Sates violated the principle when it supported the separation of South Sudan from Sudan, Eritrea from Ethiopia, and East Timor from Indonesia.

To the charge that Russia is guilty of unprovoked aggression in Ukraine, Russia would point out that the U.S. invaded Panama to arrest Noriega, invaded Grenada to prevent American citizens from being taken hostage (even though they had not been taken hostage), invaded and occupied Iraq on spurious grounds, maintains military forces in Syria without the permission of the Syrian government, targets people in other countries with drones. In other words, for the U.S. government to preach about respect for sovereignty and preservation of territorial integrity to a Russian resident can seem a claim to special rights not allowed others.

Ultimately, all these legal arguments and appeals to abstract concepts are beside the point. So far as Ukraine is concerned, it can never be a united, prosperous country unless it has reasonably close and civil relations with Russia. That means, inter alia, giving its Russian-speaking citizens equal rights to their language and culture. That is a fact determined by geography and history.

Ukraine’s friends in Europe and North America should help them understand that, rather than pursuing what could easily turn out to be a suicidal course."

https://ccisf.org/wp-content/uploads...ec.-2021-1.pdf

[HermantheGerman]

From my intelligent report: "Putin fucked up big time"

Putin is just like Hitler (both ugly as hell ). He is fighting at too many borders and loosing control of the situation at home.
The "North Caucasus" is slowly but surely heating up. Russia as we know it now, will split up into smaller countries.
That is my New Years prediction.

Happy New Year Pootin!

[HermantheGerman]

So far as Ukraine is concerned, it can never be a united, prosperous country unless it has reasonably close and civil relations with Russia.

Wrong! The WORLD needs nothing from Russia except its natural resources. Russia has simply NOTHING offer, at least under Pootin.

That means, inter alia, giving its Russian-speaking citizens equal rights to their language and culture. That is a fact determined by geography and history.

At least the author got that right. But forgot to mention that the same goes for the poor slobs (over 193 ethnic groups) still living in Russia.

[NamPikToot]

He's got his hands full


Moscow warns Finland and Sweden against joining Nato amid rising tensions


Moscow has warned Finland and Sweden against joining Nato amid rising tensions between Russia and the western military alliance. Maria Zakharova, the Russian foreign ministry spokeswoman, accused the alliance of trying to pull the two countries into its orbit, the Times reports.


“It is quite obvious that the ascension of Finland and Sweden to Nato would have serious military and political consequences that would require an adequate response from Russia,” she said, not specifying what response Russia might take.


*Russia's Ryabkov demands NATO abandons all military activities in Eastern Europe - including Ukraine
*Russia will respond “militarily” to NATO Expansion, says Sergei Ryabkov


Finland and Sweden both pursued a policy of neutrality throughout the Cold War and neither country has ever formally applied to join Nato.However, Sweden, which increased its defence budget after Russia annexed Crimea from Ukraine in 2014, introduced legislation last year that would allow it to join Nato in the future if it decided it was in its interests. Swedish troops have held joint military exercises with Nato.


Finland has also said that it could apply for Nato membership in the future.


Ann Linde, Sweden’s foreign minister, said Russia’s demands would reduce the opportunities for countries to make independent decisions.


“We must have a rules-based world order, where we have international law and each country has the right to make its own security policy choice,” she said.


Nato Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg visited the two countries in October and praised their willingness to work with the alliance amid Russia’s “aggressive posturing”.

https://eutoday.net/news/security-defence/2021/moscow-warns-finland-and-sweden-against-joining-nato-amid-rising-tensions

[harrybarracuda]

He doesn't seem to understand that this macho bullshit is exactly what makes them think about joining NATO.

[NamPikToot]

He also fails to understand that they are sovereign states free to make their own choices, of course having a toothless UN bought by the chinkies means in reality only NATO is there to stand up to despotic states like Russia, China, N Korea etc

[sabang]

But I think he does understand that when the USA makes a promise, it means nothing.

[NamPikToot]

We also understand he thinks nothing of state sponsored assassinations on independent country's soil and through this and other actions is not to be trusted.