Thread: The U.K and the E.U - In or out?

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

Or are you afraid that the EXTRA pampering for Britain will stop and the NUK will fall out of their mouth.

I have no idea what that means.

Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Norway is subject to EU freedom of movement and trade regulations as part of its trade agreements with the EU. As a non member Norway has no say in this if it wants to trade with the EU. Britain will be in the same position. Are you saying you're not aware of this?

Are you saying there is no difference?

No. I am saying that you should check your facts and stop believing nonsense. It's very, very easy to find out the truth of these claims and I don't understand why you and some others can't be bothered to do that. What exactly is that stops you from checking whether what you post is factual or not?

Norway is a member of the EEA and to gain access to the single market it must pay EU dues and adhere to EU policies, which it does. As a non EU member it it has no say in how does dues are spent or how those policies are created.

Switzerland is a Schengen member and is subject to EU freedom of movement directives, two things which those who want Britain to leave are supposedly totally against.

These are the facts.

So tell me again how a Britain which has no say in how the EU is governed but which must pay EU dues, obey EU directives, and allow freedom of movement for all EU citizens (in other words the Norwegian and Swiss models we hear so much about) is better off than it is now?

You need to do some factfinding you too.


As you say, correctly, Norway is party to the EEA treaty, (so are ALL EU member states).
However, Schengen does not come with that package. Schengen is a separate framework that Norway, and most - not all EU member states, is part of.

Switzerland has a very different relationship to EU than EEA. Switzerland negotitate deals with EU on a sector by sector / case by case basis.
They adhere to regulations and directives as negotiated.


(The EEA treaty is one piece of extremely complicated legislation, extremely,
and the legal basis is just weird, weird for those who don't know treaty stuff
and weird for those who do.

I'm pretty sure that the EU would never agree to expand the EEA membership
any further.)

^ your take on it is that norway is akin to a vassal state of the eu. The fact, rather than the myths you peddle, is norway has considerable independence, far more than we have, and it is certainly not without influence and power.

If anyone is interested in facts ignore bob, he just repeats stuff he read in the guardian newspaper.

Originally Posted by longway

^ your take on it is that norway is akin to a vassal state to the eu. The fact, rather than the myths you peddle, is norway had considerable independence and it is certainly not without influence and power.

If anyone is interested in facts ignore bob, he just repeats stuff he read in the guardian newspaper.

How's about actually posting some facts, longway, instead of your usual blowhard whinging? You have not said anything of substance anywhere in this debate, just variations on "it'll all be fine" and Eff Off Johnny Foreigner". What is the independence Norway has that is far greater than the the UK has and how can this be applied to a post-Brexit Britain? How's about a list, surely you have all of this at your fingertips?

I said nothing about Norway being a vassal state, I said that the Norwegian way is not suitable for a post-Brexit Britain as the Norwegian economy is fundamentally different to Britains and as the Norwegian method provides absolutely nothing of what pro leave campaigners are demanding. Specifically it does not stop EU immigration nor does it mean the country no longer makes payments to the EU.

Nor is what I said about Norway from any newspaper, it was said by Erna Solberg during her visit to the UK earlier this year.

Originally Posted by longway

^ your take on it is that norway is akin to a vassal state of the eu. The fact, rather than the myths you peddle, is norway has considerable independence, far more than we have, and it is certainly not without influence and power.

If anyone is interested in facts ignore me, I just talk shite all day and every day

FTFY

As posted in post-fuck-me-it-was-early-on-go-find-it-you-numbskulls, the Norway model will mean very little cut in the contributions, no difference in migration and no voting power but heh, you get some Sovereignty back so you can say: 'we are fucking ourselves' instead of: 'the eu is fucking us'
I think this was one of the links...can't be bothered to find any others but it shouldn't take long for those that actually want to know.

http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/EA022.pdf

I would have thought having Piwanoi and Pat on your side would be enough to realise you were backing a dead fucking horse.

...and that despicable act yesterday is something I find beyond belief, beyond reason and beyond our shores...

R.I.P. Ms Cox MP

^ & ^^ Typical guardian reader crap.

The irony of being told I am blowhard by a poster who has named himself 'DrBob', and whose psychotic rants directed at anyone who disagrees with him fill this thread. and who by the way, has never posted a single fact in any of his idiotic screeds.

Norway does not have to pay a penny to access the eu, it dispenses discretionary grants for in particular areas that it negotiates every 5-7 years.

That Norway chooses to be a member of the schengen area does not translate to it will make no difference to migration in the UK.

Your simplistic take on the relation of norway to the eu, has little semblance of reality. Norway has far more freedom over the implementation of eu laws and directives than the UK.

Also much of the eu laws and legislation come from wto rules and again unlike the uk; norway can sit at wto meetings in its own right and influence decisions at the source level. WTO legislation often require unanimous agreement and its a prime place to influence what goes on in the eu.

The only despicable person is you, trying to make political hay out of a random act of violence, get a grip on yourself.

I don't think its fruitful to talk about the Norway model.
Whether its good or bad it is not available as an option for UK if she leaves EU.

EU will not agree to expand the EEA membership further, (except of course for any new EU member states).

^ Well I didnt bring it up, but the remainers have created a fantasy in their heads about norway's relations with the eu, and what that means for the UK.

Well this thread has turned into to quite a squabble (no surprise). Here's something for you all; EU referendum: lies, myths and half-truths ? video explainer | Politics | The Guardian

Originally Posted by billy the kid

Have we stopped being angry with the Godman Sachs of this world who caused all this shit in the first place. The devastation in the middle east. The Israeli elite, quietly pulling strings and causing mayhem. Blair- Bush war mongers.

Am i missing something ?

Yes.

Muslim warmongers and jihadists.

Originally Posted by ENT

Originally Posted by billy the kid

Have we stopped being angry with the Godman Sachs of this world who caused all this shit in the first place. The devastation in the middle east. The Israeli elite, quietly pulling strings and causing mayhem. Blair- Bush war mongers.

Am i missing something ?

Yes.

Muslim warmongers and jihadists.

Yeah There are thousands in Europe already ,with the UK being very well represented , this video is a bit long winded but the first 10 minutes or so reveals the true enemy within , one can well understand the fears of the electorate at the thought of even more Immigration and now 1 in 3 give it more importance than the economy , thats an awful lot of racist bigots eh?

it was said by Erna Solberg during her visit to the UK earlier this year.

BTW had a look at what the noggies think of our solberg

Not much by the looks of things

A poll Ipsos MMI conducted for Dagbladet shows that the popularity of Norway’s prime minister has fallen from 65 percent in autumn 2013 to 34 percent.

She managed to piss off the whole of norway in about 18 months.

Prime Minister’s Popularity Halved - The Nordic Page - Politics

Must admit, at the beginning of the campaigning, I felt that there would be vote in favour of 'Remain', albeit I haven't lived in the UK for nearly 20 years, and hence can't profess to have first hand knowledge of people's feelings.

However, in spite of all the warnings of impending calamity that both camps have been touting as the future, what has amazed me is that the more that the 'Remain' side leaders and their allies in Europe and elsewhere try to frighten the populace into signing on for more of the same, the more the polls indicate an increasing lead for "Leave".

What is truly astonishing is how at odds the Labour Party is with it's own supporters, and in this instance doesn't appear to be able to grasp the depth of feelings around immigration.

The ready source of EU labour willing to work for less and for longer, worries workers. The lack of housing and large increases in rent cannot be helped by the numbers seeking it, growing year after year. These are the real time economics that people are interested in, not the potential decline in the value of sterling, or the spiralling fall of share prices.

I read this editorial comment this morning (full link here: Britain is in the midst of a working-class revolt | John Harris | Opinion | The Guardian ) and I'll quote a paragraph from it:

"Before anyone with a more right-on view of all this explodes with ire, they might also consider the numbers. Between 1991 and 2003, on average about 60,000 migrants from the EU came to the UK each year. Between 2004 and 2012, that figure rose to 170,000. The 2011 census put the number of UK residents from Poland alone at 654,000."

I'm not British, so I obviously did not vote in the thread poll.

This topic is getting more interesting to me and I have a LOT to learn b/c I haven't followed it too closely.

So (before I read 36 pages!) please tell me.


5 reasons (or more) that leaving the EU is good or better


or


5 reasons (or more) that staying in the EU is good (better):


Thanks.

Originally Posted by PAG

Between 1991 and 2003, on average about 60,000 migrants from the EU came to the UK each year. Between 2004 and 2012, that figure rose to 170,000. The 2011 census put the number of UK residents from Poland alone at 654,000."

And now there are " 850,000 Poles working in Britain" according to an AP article in April this year.

The aticle also states that "Polish immigrants, a community so numerous that Polish has become Britain's second most-spoken language."

Polish workers in UK worry about possibility of Brexit

The chart below suggests to me accession was good for Poles and Poland but not so good for Britain and British workers.

"Unemployment in Poland at the time of accession was close to 20%. Following accession the unemployment rate fell quite rapidly to about 10% in 2006."


Migration Watch UK | MW257 : Incentives for Polish Migration

Originally Posted by PAG

Must admit, at the beginning of the campaigning, I felt that there would be vote in favour of 'Remain', albeit I haven't lived in the UK for nearly 20 years, and hence can't profess to have first hand knowledge of people's feelings.

However, in spite of all the warnings of impending calamity that both camps have been touting as the future, what has amazed me is that the more that the 'Remain' side leaders and their allies in Europe and elsewhere try to frighten the populace into signing on for more of the same, the more the polls indicate an increasing lead for "Leave".

What is truly astonishing is how at odds the Labour Party is with it's own supporters, and in this instance doesn't appear to be able to grasp the depth of feelings around immigration.

The ready source of EU labour willing to work for less and for longer, worries workers. The lack of housing and large increases in rent cannot be helped by the numbers seeking it, growing year after year. These are the real time economics that people are interested in, not the potential decline in the value of sterling, or the spiralling fall of share prices.

I read this editorial comment this morning (full link here: Britain is in the midst of a working-class revolt | John Harris | Opinion | The Guardian ) and I'll quote a paragraph from it:

"Before anyone with a more right-on view of all this explodes with ire, they might also consider the numbers. Between 1991 and 2003, on average about 60,000 migrants from the EU came to the UK each year. Between 2004 and 2012, that figure rose to 170,000. The 2011 census put the number of UK residents from Poland alone at 654,000."

USA Today Exclusive: Brexit Hits 52%, + 20 over Remain After Death of Jo Cox - Breitbart

I do hope this poll proves to be right. It really looks as if the British people are seeing through b.s., they are not falling for the scare mongering, and the attempts to capitalise on the lady's death are back firing badly.

Originally Posted by Cold Pizza

I'm not British, so I obviously did not vote in the thread poll.

This topic is getting more interesting to me and I have a LOT to learn b/c I haven't followed it too closely.

So (before I read 36 pages!) please tell me.


5 reasons (or more) that leaving the EU is good or better


or


5 reasons (or more) that staying in the EU is good (better):


Thanks.

Try this for the Brexit side .

Originally Posted by longway

I do hope this poll proves to be right. It really looks as if the British people are seeing through b.s., they are not falling for the scare mongering, and the attempts to capitalise on the lady's death are back firing badly.

Perhaps, just perhaps, many who were asked for their views, just after Cox had been murdered, told the pollster to politely bugger off and that was put down as a 'don't know'.

First Brexit Poll After Jo Cox Death Reveals Stunning Result


Before the assassination of British MP Jo Cox, the "Leave" campaign had been surging in recent polls...
This was before The IMF unleashed their own version of "we are all doomed" and before Ms. Cox was murdered.

The sad death of pro-EU British MP Jo Cox prompted a buying spree in Sterling that carried on through today as hope sprung eternal that her assassination (and the efforts to politicize the actions of a mad man) would lead to either a delayed vote or sympathetic pro-EU "Remain" swing. JPMorgan hinted before the close that was not the case and now, as USA Today reports, the first post-Cox poll reveals a shocking swing in "Remain" voters...

British support for remaining in the European Union has weakened in the wake of the murder of the pro-EU politician Jo Cox, according to an online research company Friday.

Qriously, a London-based technology start-up that gathers data and intelligence about consumers through mobile phone apps, found that backing among likely voters for Britain's EU membership has dropped to 32% from 40% before her death.

The poll was based on 1,992 British adults surveyed on June 13-16, and then 1,002 on June 17 — the day after Cox was shot and killed in northern England. The start-up claims to have held the first such survey on the topic since the lawmaker's slaying. Most of Qriously’s surveys are done for corporate brands and it has not been previously conducted an EU referendum poll.

Respondents were asked: "Imagine the EU referendum were held today. Would you vote for the U.K. to remain a member of the European Union, or leave the European Union?" They were given three options: "Remain in the EU," "Leave the EU," or "Don't know."
While liquidty is extremely thin, Cable has slid a little on the news in late trading...

With news that The Times newspaper has come out in support of the "Remain" campaign (while The Sun, The Spectator, and The Telegraph all support "Leave"), the fact that Qriously found that 52% will vote to leave the bloc in a national referendum on June 23 (unchanged from before the parliamentarian's death) is telling to the social divide in Britain, but the weakening support for remaining in the EU coincided with a large move toward "Don't know," which leaped to 16% from 9% before Cox's assassination.

The major British polling firms, including YouGov, were expected to release their first EU opinion surveys following Cox's murder over the weekend.

* * *

In a surprisingly late release - one can only imagine in response to the poll above - BMG/Herald has released poll which - surprise, surprise - shows a big lead for "Remain"...

*UK PHONE POLL ON EU SHOWS ~7 PT LEAD FOR REMAIN: BMG/HERALD
Completely out of line with all recent polls... But digging into the numbers, we get a different picture...
Follow
Politico Daily @Politico_Daily
BMG #EUref polls:

Online
Remain: 45%
Leave: 55%

Phone
Remain: 53%
Leave 47%

Excluding Don't Knows.
First Brexit Poll After Jo Cox Death Reveals Stunning Result | Zero Hedge

Originally Posted by Troy

Originally Posted by longway

I do hope this poll proves to be right. It really looks as if the British people are seeing through b.s., they are not falling for the scare mongering, and the attempts to capitalise on the lady's death are back firing badly.

Perhaps, just perhaps, many who were asked for their views, just after Cox had been murdered, told the pollster to politely bugger off and that was put down as a 'don't know'.

Interesting post from elsewhere I just read:

"The EU has given us cheap mobile phone roaming charges, cheaper flights and proper compensation when things go wrong. It has helped clean up the environment, improving our rivers and beaches. It has given us unprecedented freedom to travel visa-free across the continent. And I’m voting out.
Why? I know a painter/decorator who has not been able to raise his wages for 15 years. There’s always someone else, he says, willing to work for less. A driver who arrived from Turkey 18 years ago, who says the bus companies used to pay more than £12 an hour, but can now pay £10 or less because they have so many takers (and yes, the irony is noted). A care-home cleaner in a rundown seaside town who reckons her hopes of ever getting more than the minimum wage are zero. Each blames an influx of workers from the EU. Each of them are voting out. Tell them the EU protects workers’ rights and they just laugh.

When companies launch recruitment drives in eastern Europe they blame skills shortages in Britain. Really? If a big business wants to hire, say, drivers on £25 an hour, it will find it can do so easily; what they really mean is that they can’t find people willing to work for £10 an hour or less, with antisocial hours to boot. Meanwhile, workers here rejecting low wages are told they are lazy, chavvy and feckless when they refuse to be part of the so-called “jobs factory of Europe”."

^ It's from the Guardian.


I like the EU, but I’m voting out
https://www.theguardian.com/eu-vote-brexit-working-people-rents-wages