The Gun Issue thread

[panama hat]

Too bad no one was around w/ a gun to shoot that guy. Ever think of that? Too bust spouting anal leakage.

Yes. Too bad. Ever think about the possibility of that guy not having a gun in the first place?
Too busty spouting anal leakage . . . whatever that means.

Your answer then would be to have every man, woman and child carrying guns?

What could go wrong

(hello to a lurking piwanoi, nice to know you're still hanging on)

[harrybarracuda]

Too bad no one was around w/ a gun to shoot that guy. Ever think of that? Too bust spouting anal leakage.

An armed guard at any school would be the first target. None of these shooters has ever exhibited a fear or anyone being armed.

They are mostly shot by police or themselves.

So realistically, you're just adding another statistic to the death toll. Or risking nervy armed guards pulling their gun on anyone who looks suspicous.

Do you *really* want to live in such a climate of fear?

[AntRobertson]

Recall when Gabrielle Giffords was shot there was an armed dude there (can't recollect if he was official security or just a bystander) who damn near shot an innocent man.

The actual offender was subdued by an unarmed elderly man.

[baldrick]

yay donald - people in gun free zones are sitting ducks - utter retard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=175&v=XM7jxfxjphk

An American Fox News anchor has claimed Australians "have no freedom" while lambasting Australia's gun laws during a live discussion on the recent Oregon shooting.
Nine people were killed and several were injured when a gunman opened fire at the Umpqua Community College campus in Roseburg earlier this month.
Since then, gun control has been hotly debated among politicians in the lead-up to the 2016 presidential election.
But this morning, well-known conservative Fox & Friends host Tucker Carlson described the idea of banning guns as both "insane" and "childish".
"When there's a driving accident, you don't ban cars, you try to prevent drunk people from driving," he said.

etc etc

and the rational can back away from destroying the drink driving statement and let the peabrains hang themselves with it

[Black Heart]

Worthy of discussion once again.

Here is RFK in Roseberg, Oregon, 50 years ago.

[bowie]

An abbreviated excerpt cut and pasted - far too much to copy and paste all - something for everyone - go ahead cherrypick some statistics to make your point(s).


Gun Control - Just Facts

"Gun Control Facts." By James D. Agresti and Reid K. Smith. Just Facts, September 13, 2010. Revised 6/19/15.

Ownership
* As of 2009, the United States has a population of 307 million people.[5]
* Based on production data from firearm manufacturers,[6] there are roughly 300 million firearms owned by civilians in the United States as of 2010. Of these, about 100 million are handguns.[7]

* Based upon surveys, the following are estimates of private firearm ownership in the U.S. as of 2010:

Households With a Gun Adults Owning a Gun Adults Owning a Handgun
40-45% 30-34% 17-19%
47-53 million 70-80 million 40-45 million

Crime and Self-Defense
* Roughly 16,272 murders were committed in the United States during 2008. Of these, about 10,886 or 67% were committed with firearms.[11]

* A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 0.5% of households had members who had used a gun for defense during a situation in which they thought someone "almost certainly would have been killed" if they "had not used a gun for protection." Applied to the U.S. population, this amounts to 162,000 such incidents per year. This figure excludes all "military service, police work, or work as a security guard."[12]

* Based on survey data from the U.S. Department of Justice, roughly 5,340,000 violent crimes were committed in the United States during 2008. These include simple/aggravated assaults, robberies, sexual assaults, rapes, and murders.[13] [14] [15] Of these, about 436,000 or 8% were committed by offenders visibly armed with a gun.[16]

* Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18]

* A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 3.5% of households had members who had used a gun "for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere." Applied to the U.S. population, this amounts to 1,029,615 such incidents per year. This figure excludes all "military service, police work, or work as a security guard."[19]

* A 1994 survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per year.[20]

* A 1982 survey of male felons in 11 state prisons dispersed across the U.S. found:[21]

• 34% had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"
• 40% had decided not to commit a crime because they "knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun"
• 69% personally knew other criminals who had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"[22]

* Click here to see why the following commonly cited statistic does not meet Just Facts' Standards of Credibility: "In homes with guns, the homicide of a household member is almost 3 times more likely to occur than in homes without guns."

________________________________________
└ Vulnerability to Violent Crime

* At the 2013 homicide rate, roughly one in every 285 Americans will be murdered in the course of their lives.[23]

* A U.S. Justice Department study based on crime data from 1974-1985 found:

• 42% of Americans will be the victim of a completed violent crime (assault, robbery, rape) in the course of their lives.
• 83% of Americans will be the victim of an attempted or completed violent crime.
• 52% of Americans will be the victim of an attempted or completed violent crime more than once.[24]

* A 1997 survey of more than 18,000 prison inmates found that among those serving time for a violent crime, "30% of State offenders and 35% of Federal offenders carried a firearm when committing the crime."[25]

________________________________________
└ Criminal Justice System

* Nationwide in 2008, law enforcement agencies reported that 55% of aggravated assaults, 27% of robberies, 40% of rapes, and 64% of murders that were reported to police resulted in an alleged offender being arrested and turned over for prosecution.[26] [27]

* Currently, for every 12 aggravated assaults, robberies, sexual assaults, rapes, and murders committed in the United States, approximately one person is sentenced to prison for committing such a crime.[28] [29] [30]

* A 2002 U.S. Justice Department study of 272,111 felons released from state prisons in 1994 found that within three years of their release:

• at least 67.5% had been arrested for committing a new offense.
• at least 21.6% had been arrested for committing a new violent offense.
• these former inmates had been charged with committing at least 2,871 new homicides, 2,444 new rapes, 3,151 other new sexual assaults, 2,362 new kidnappings, 21,245 new robberies, 54,604 new assaults, and 13,854 other new violent crimes.[31]

* Of 1,662 murders committed in New York City during 2003-2005, more than 90% were committed by people with criminal records.[32]

________________________________________
└ Washington, DC

* In 1976, the Washington, D.C. City Council passed a law generally prohibiting residents from possessing handguns and requiring that all firearms in private homes be (1) kept unloaded and (2) rendered temporally inoperable via disassembly or installation of a trigger lock. The law became operative on Sept. 24, 1976.[33] [34]

* On June 26, 2008, the U.S. Supreme Court, in a 5-4 ruling, struck down this law as unconstitutional.[35][36]

* During the years in which the D.C. handgun ban and trigger lock law was in effect, the Washington, D.C. murder rate averaged 73% higher than it was at the outset of the law, while the U.S. murder rate averaged 11% lower.[37]

________________________________________
Britain

* In 1920, Britain passed a law requiring civilians to obtain a certificate from their district police chief in order to purchase or possess any firearm except a shotgun. To obtain this certificate, the applicant had to pay a fee, and the chief of police had to be "satisfied" that the applicant had "good reason for requiring such a certificate" and did not pose a "danger to the public safety or to the peace." The certificate had to specify the types and quantities of firearms and ammunition that the applicant could purchase and keep.[38]

* In 1968, Britain made the 1920 law stricter by requiring civilians to obtain a certificate from their district police chief in order to purchase or possess a shotgun. This law also required that firearm certificates specify the identification numbers ("if known") of all firearms and shotguns owned by the applicant.[39]

* In 1997, Britain passed a law requiring civilians to surrender almost all privately owned handguns to the police. More than 162,000 handguns and 1.5 million pounds of ammunition were "compulsorily surrendered" by February 1998. Using "records of firearms held on firearms certificates," police accounted for all but fewer than eight of all legally owned handguns in England, Scotland, and Wales.[40]


* Years are calendar years prior to 1998 and fiscal years (April 1 - March 31) thereafter.
† Homicide data is published according to the years in which the police initially reported the offenses as homicides, which are not always the same years in which the incidents took place.

‡ Large anomalies unrelated to guns:
• 2000: 58 Chinese people suffocated to death in a shipping container en route to the UK
• 2002: 172 homicides reported when Dr. Harold Shipman was exposed for killing his patients
• 2003: 20 cockle pickers drowned resulting in manslaughter charges
• 2005: 52 people killed in the July 7th London subway/bus bombings
[41]

* Not counting the above-listed anomalies, the homicide rate in England and Wales has averaged 52% higher since the outset of the 1968 gun control law and 15% higher since the outset of the 1997 handgun ban.[42]

[panama hat]

^ You're making . . . which point?

[chassamui]

^A significant proportion of US citzens are very dangerous people, and a further significant proprtion of US citizens are victims of violent crime.
Gun ownership costs lives in the US.

[baldrick]

maybe a tshirt slogan is more the seppo style

" I will attempt to shoot you before I acknowledge I am an idiot "

[Humbert]

^ You chose the right career, marketing is not one of your strong points.

[AntRobertson]

Thread merged with a two year old Barbara thread? Like there aren't enough of those being bumped already?

[bowie]

^ You're making . . . which point?

During the years in which the D.C. handgun ban and trigger lock law was in effect, the Washington, D.C. murder rate averaged 73% higher than it was at the outset of the law, and,

The homicide rate in England and Wales has averaged 52% higher since the outset of the 1968 gun control law and 15% higher since the outset of the 1997 handgun ban.


Tongue-in-cheek:

As is shown in the above two citations, statistically speaking, it is shown that there is a direct correlation, an easy to connect the dots “cause-and-effect”, that enacting gun control(s) causes a direct and significant increase in murders.

i.e. There are far more murders when gun control legislation is in place. 73% and 52% respectively (apparently DC crooks are nastier than England & Wales crooks, or perhaps more scared of armed victims).

It is shown above that the criminal element is bolder when they know the victims cannot defend themselves.


How would you interpret those two statistics?

[panama hat]

How would you interpret those two statistics?

My uni degree is a major in economics so I can interpret figures in any way to make my point. If one selects statistics that 'prove' a point and discards all others and skews them - voilà. Guns are safe . . . except they're not.

The old and worn argument that guns don't kill people factually true, of course. The old Boon Mee question as to why people are afraid of guns is also a good one.

Sadly these two are disingenuous propositions.

I've addressed this before by saying - replace guns with rubber chickens and see the results.

Guns are used to kill people. Easy access to guns makes it easier to kill people. Guns are the killing tools, designed for nothing other than killing.

Give the 11-year old his dad's rubber chicken instead of his dad's gun and the eight year old would still be alive, and the puppies would be safe.

Simplistic? Of course. Simple? Yes. Factual? Yes

[thaimeme]

More guns for Americans...

[bowie]

^^ Firearms are instruments that are designed to provide deadly force.

They are safe only in the hands of trained professionals... and dangerous in any other circumstance, period.

Legislation cannot and will not solve the problem... only education will.

Unfortunately, only a small portion of mankind will invest the time to be educated.

However, let our politicians legislate to their hearts content. Let them show how much they care for their constituents by enacting piece after piece of useless legislation. Far better to begin enforcing the gun control legislation already on the books before enacting more. Unfortunately, even if the existing legislation was enforced, fairly and equally as it was designed to be - unnecessary deaths will continue.

Education is the key - and it always has been. Yet, the legislation that is enacted is to restrict, not educate.

[Humbert]

Thread merged with a two year old Barbara thread? Like there aren't enough of those being bumped already?

I think you are responding to my suggestion on the wrong thread. See, it's confusing.

[AntRobertson]

See, it's confusing

Very. I half-suspected that my original OP would be dumped in the DH megaturd thread.

Frankly that would've been preferable to yet another of barbara's.

[thaimeme]

^^ Firearms are instruments that are designed to provide deadly force.

They are safe only in the hands of trained professionals... and dangerous in any other circumstance, period.

Legislation cannot and will not solve the problem... only education will.

Unfortunately, only a small portion of mankind will invest the time to be educated.

However, let our politicians legislate to their hearts content. Let them show how much they care for their constituents by enacting piece after piece of useless legislation. Far better to begin enforcing the gun control legislation already on the books before enacting more. Unfortunately, even if the existing legislation was enforced, fairly and equally as it was designed to be - unnecessary deaths will continue.

Education is the key - and it always has been. Yet, the legislation that is enacted is to restrict, not educate.

Has nothing whatsoever to do with the weapon, but the conditioned cultural character.....[one that is steeped in militarism].

[spliff]

Well, you can't just take away a persons constitutional right.

[AntRobertson]

Well, you can't just take away a persons constitutional right.

Is there a constitutional right to not being murdered by a nutter armed with an arsenal of guns?

[spliff]

Not per say.

[misskit]

Well, you can't just take away a persons constitutional right.

No one thinks it takes away their constitutional rights to require a driver's license, registration, or having to pay tax on vehicles. No one thinks it takes away rights to have alcohol taxed and regulated. What is so special about guns, other than the extreme paranoia of gun owners who fear someone will take their weapons.

[panama hat]

^^ Firearms are instruments that are designed to provide deadly force.

True. Items meant to kill

They are safe only in the hands of trained professionals... and dangerous in any other circumstance, period.

Not always the case, but yes, generally

Legislation cannot and will not solve the problem... only education will.

Education doesn't stop anyone getting angry - limiting the access to guns will ensure they don't have guns to act out this anger

Unfortunately, only a small portion of mankind will invest the time to be educated.

They are the ones who don't need to be take care of, oddly enough

Legislation cannot and will not solve the problem... only education will.

I'd disagree. Educate and legislate. People know that tens of thousands die periodically through guns - legislation is the result of education.

Well, you can't just take away a persons constitutional right.

It's called an amendment - the simple definition of the word 'amendment' answers your post

[bobo746]

[spliff]

^^ You mean like the 2nd amendment?