Thread: Rubber trees 101

Originally Posted by jamescollister

I seldom get up early anymore to see.
Are you here, if so come on over for a few beers, stay the night and have a few more beers. Jim

Jim , have you ever tried making your own wine ? this climate is perfect for fermenting and all the ingredients can be had here for peanuts .

Originally Posted by piwanoi

Originally Posted by jamescollister

I seldom get up early anymore to see.
Are you here, if so come on over for a few beers, stay the night and have a few more beers. Jim

Jim , have you ever tried making your own wine ? this climate is perfect for fermenting and all the ingredients can be had here for peanuts .

Not really, but have planted some cashew nut trees, not doing well, but cashew nut apples allegedly make good wine.

Just a beer man over all, wine or spirits make an alco, beer just makes you a drunk.

That's he killer out here, once you step over the beer line, whiskey/ Sam song/ Mekong ,Lao Kow, , time to get out.

Sold cup @ auction yesterday, Udon province, 18.28 baht per kg. 55-45% split.

Originally Posted by thaiguzzi

Sold cup @ auction yesterday, Udon province, 18.28 baht per kg. 55-45% split.

We have been given a load of forms to fill out by the government, as per normal, I can't get a straight answer as to what it's all about.
Nothing to do with the 1,500 Baht per rai scheme.

Questions like how many trees, output etc and alleged assistance for diversifying, replanting, but nothing solid.

Anyone had similar requests, I'm not sure as to whether to fill them in or not, encase it's some trick to see it you should be paying tax.

As some may know, over a certain amount of trees, pigs, chickens etc you stop being a small farmer and become an agro business and up for income tax.
Any thoughts. Jim

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Originally Posted by thaiguzzi

Sold cup @ auction yesterday, Udon province, 18.28 baht per kg. 55-45% split.

We have been given a load of forms to fill out by the government, as per normal, I can't get a straight answer as to what it's all about.
Nothing to do with the 1,500 Baht per rai scheme.

Questions like how many trees, output etc and alleged assistance for diversifying, replanting, but nothing solid.

Anyone had similar requests, I'm not sure as to whether to fill them in or not, encase it's some trick to see it you should be paying tax.

As some may know, over a certain amount of trees, pigs, chickens etc you stop being a small farmer and become an agro business and up for income tax.
Any thoughts. Jim

No idea..nuffin here...suggest forms are perhaps given to registered companies such as yourself.....?

Nope, not heard nothing. Forms come from which dept?

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Originally Posted by thaiguzzi

Sold cup @ auction yesterday, Udon province, 18.28 baht per kg. 55-45% split.

We have been given a load of forms to fill out by the government, as per normal, I can't get a straight answer as to what it's all about.
Nothing to do with the 1,500 Baht per rai scheme.

Questions like how many trees, output etc and alleged assistance for diversifying, replanting, but nothing solid.

Anyone had similar requests, I'm not sure as to whether to fill them in or not, encase it's some trick to see it you should be paying tax.

As some may know, over a certain amount of trees, pigs, chickens etc you stop being a small farmer and become an agro business and up for income tax.
Any thoughts. Jim

wife has a bit of rubber but not heard of these forms, she is in with the local amper people.....
an eg: wife has a agro business that she pays tax on. taxed at source ie sell to big company, then is left to sort the other percents out with the tax office in big city ect... many things that can discount the amount of tax you pay. ie. children school fees, bank loans ect... all will reduce the tax amount. she does pay a local amper tax too, on size of operation sq metre ect. then another tax to do with business stuff, all at local level, not even 10,000 baht a year so not to bad.
have 2 full time workers that get looked at too, they do not pay tax as the income that we declare for them falls just short of 120,000 each per year, over this amount I think that they would have to pay a small amount of tax.
on a side note the "family" have a small village shop, this is also taxed on yearly basis, size sq metre - local amper foods eat in (noddles ect )again at local amper then petrol beer meat ect goes to different offices around a very broad area, the police come and check that all bills are taken care of..... all above you would get change out of 5,000 baht per year. but bigger shop bigger bills........

Originally Posted by thaiguzzi

Nope, not heard nothing. Forms come from which dept?

National rubber board, via the locals.
Wife says everyone who got the last government hand out has received them.
Supposedly for fertilizer grants, replanting assistance, etc.

Bit I don't like is this, how many trees, output and tapping or not, they already know that people got money for up to 25 rai last time and 10 rai this time.

Dangling a carrot in the hope you declare how many trees you have, yet not saying you will get anything for sure.

Going to only claim the 25 rai that they already know of.

Farmerjohn, have a rubber factory/company, pay taxes etc, but anyone working there, [not operating at the moment] are employees, tappers are percentage workers so no social security, no minimum wage.
If they become employees you would need to pay them, daily, weekly or monthly, plus 15 percent tax on your income and VAT if you make enough sheet rubber.

The whole tapping, collecting system would need to change to a continues tapping cycle, less tappers, tapping less trees, but everyday.

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Originally Posted by thaiguzzi

Nope, not heard nothing. Forms come from which dept?

National rubber board, via the locals.
Wife says everyone who got the last government hand out has received them.
Supposedly for fertilizer grants, replanting assistance, etc.

Bit I don't like is this, how many trees, output and tapping or not, they already know that people got money for up to 25 rai last time and 10 rai this time.

Dangling a carrot in the hope you declare how many trees you have, yet not saying you will get anything for sure.

Going to only claim the 25 rai that they already know of.

Farmerjohn, have a rubber factory/company, pay taxes etc, but anyone working there, [not operating at the moment] are employees, tappers are percentage workers so no social security, no minimum wage.
If they become employees you would need to pay them, daily, weekly or monthly, plus 15 percent tax on your income and VAT if you make enough sheet rubber.

The whole tapping, collecting system would need to change to a continues tapping cycle, less tappers, tapping less trees, but everyday.

no sorry, the workers I mention are not the tappers, these work at different business.... the tappers that work the wifes trees don't earn enough to keep themselves let alone have to pay tax........ the wife has been paying tax now for some 5 plus years on other business interests..... the rubber trees only work for afew months of the year, hardly worth having them....... yes our amper have computerized records of farm sub money given out over the years. plus land tax paid over years too.
record keeping is slowly coming into play just like who is where and when in our area.......

Been having a search on farm taxation, looks like if you earn over 150,000 Bt per year your supposed to file a tax return and pay tax.
No one does of course, and the authorities don't know if you have rubber or rice on your land.

But and there is always a but, if they believe your income is over 150,000, then they can sent you an assessed tax bill.

Since most rubber from small plantations is cash in hand deals no records of income.

Not saying this is for tax assessments, but they will be getting numbers, for the land they know of already, not any of the other plantations.

Not much to look forward to according to this article , Too much rubber, too few tyres leaves tappers in sticky place | Bangkok Post: news here in my area 50 kms north of Buriram according to two medium sized rubber farmers all they are getting is 13 baht a kilo .

Originally Posted by piwanoi

Not much to look forward to according to this article , Too much rubber, too few tyres leaves tappers in sticky place | Bangkok Post: news here in my area 50 kms north of Buriram according to two medium sized rubber farmers all they are getting is 13 baht a kilo .

Take all these reports with a grain of salt, BBC today El nino 2016 food shortages, lack of water etc.
Global rubber market web site, rubber production down, 200,000 ton short fall predicted, if they really had some insight, they'ed be billionaires in no time at all.

Local prices will bottom out over the Xmas new year period, everyone is on holiday.
China may have slowed, but it's still growing, will have to just sit it out, even the article is saying tappers are leaving the plantations, how many will impacted output as will El nino.

I find it hard to understand why sheet rubber has gone up, as no one is making it in my area.
Such is life, full rice bowl today, tomorrow will take care of it's self.

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Originally Posted by piwanoi

Not much to look forward to according to this article , Too much rubber, too few tyres leaves tappers in sticky place | Bangkok Post: news here in my area 50 kms north of Buriram according to two medium sized rubber farmers all they are getting is 13 baht a kilo .

Take all these reports with a grain of salt, BBC today El nino 2016 food shortages, lack of water etc.
Global rubber market web site, rubber production down, 200,000 ton short fall predicted, if they really had some insight, they'ed be billionaires in no time at all.

Local prices will bottom out over the Xmas new year period, everyone is on holiday.
China may have slowed, but it's still growing, will have to just sit it out, even the article is saying tappers are leaving the plantations, how many will impacted output as will El nino.

I find it hard to understand why sheet rubber has gone up, as no one is making it in my area.
Such is life, full rice bowl today, tomorrow will take care of it's self.

Nice to read the Thoughts of an eternal optimist , A happy New year Jim ,and lets hope you and all the other rubber farmers have a prosperous 2016

One of my rare forays into the village yesterday, sitting round the camp fire with a couple of boxes of Chang. Banter was among other things, 13 baht per kg for cup on the gate, and 1200 baht per tonne for lumber...

Originally Posted by thaiguzzi

One of my rare forays into the village yesterday, sitting round the camp fire with a couple of boxes of Chang. Banter was among other things, 13 baht per kg for cup on the gate, and 1200 baht per tonne for lumber...

SIL near NK Thammarat got 13baht/kilo last sale...about the same as our 15baht as no water content discount.

I will ask the question once again:
Keep reading about rubber farmers abandoning cutting because of some break-even point of 60+ baht. Surely trees still grow, still produce latex even at a reduced rate if not fertilized etc. What is/are the costs of production..?Beats me, 50% of something is better than 50% of sweet f all surely?
We have maybe 80 rai under the knife; our neighbors, who cut for us, have maybe 20 rai.
FF Sake 600- 800 baht a day is better than Sweet f all!!?

^ You are correct

Due to the daily income aspect of rubber it would be folly to stop tapping, as long as there are a few baht in it then the difference for many would be earning zero or earning a little bit for food etc...

Originally Posted by crepitas

I will ask the question once again:
Keep reading about rubber farmers abandoning cutting because of some break-even point of 60+ baht. Surely trees still grow, still produce latex even at a reduced rate if not fertilized etc. What is/are the costs of production..?Beats me, 50% of something is better than 50% of sweet f all surely?
We have maybe 80 rai under the knife; our neighbors, who cut for us, have maybe 20 rai.
FF Sake 600- 800 baht a day is better than Sweet f all!!?

All about the dollars, that 60 Bt is for RSS, not enough money to cover workers costs, wood electricity and taxes in my case.

My percentage tappers, say to much work for the extra few Baht, owner operator plantations, different story, they could make sheet, but small electric or hand rollers take for ever.

Now out here the locals can't get tappers, so they can only tap their best trees themselves, say 20 rai, leaving the other trees to stand idle.

Small plantations poor trees, the owners take other better paying jobs, when they can, or leave the wife to tap and head off to work in the city.

Local Doctor has about 200 rai, only has workers for 50 rai, so the output here will be down.

No one wants to work for peanuts, so you have to get at least the minimum wage, time will tell how much rubber is being produced.

Plus there is a drought, don't bother me much, we get too much rain, but inland from the mountains, it's dry as a bone and the rubber slows to a trickle, for some not worth the effort.

Thai's aren't really industrious in the first place, have rice and everything else is secondary.

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Originally Posted by crepitas

I will ask the question once again:
Keep reading about rubber farmers abandoning cutting because of some break-even point of 60+ baht. Surely trees still grow, still produce latex even at a reduced rate if not fertilized etc. What is/are the costs of production..?Beats me, 50% of something is better than 50% of sweet f all surely?
We have maybe 80 rai under the knife; our neighbors, who cut for us, have maybe 20 rai.
FF Sake 600- 800 baht a day is better than Sweet f all!!?

All about the dollars, that 60 Bt is for RSS, not enough money to cover workers costs, wood electricity and taxes in my case.

My percentage tappers, say to much work for the extra few Baht, owner operator plantations, different story, they could make sheet, but small electric or hand rollers take for ever.

Now out here the locals can't get tappers, so they can only tap their best trees themselves, say 20 rai, leaving the other trees to stand idle.

Small plantations poor trees, the owners take other better paying jobs, when they can, or leave the wife to tap and head off to work in the city.

Local Doctor has about 200 rai, only has workers for 50 rai, so the output here will be down.

No one wants to work for peanuts, so you have to get at least the minimum wage, time will tell how much rubber is being produced.

Plus there is a drought, don't bother me much, we get too much rain, but inland from the mountains, it's dry as a bone and the rubber slows to a trickle, for some not worth the effort.

Thai's aren't really industrious in the first place, have rice and everything else is secondary.

About 8 years ago SIL and husband got a 50/50 split which included them making sheet...guess things have changed?

Originally Posted by crepitas

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Originally Posted by crepitas

I will ask the question once again:
Keep reading about rubber farmers abandoning cutting because of some break-even point of 60+ baht. Surely trees still grow, still produce latex even at a reduced rate if not fertilized etc. What is/are the costs of production..?Beats me, 50% of something is better than 50% of sweet f all surely?
We have maybe 80 rai under the knife; our neighbors, who cut for us, have maybe 20 rai.
FF Sake 600- 800 baht a day is better than Sweet f all!!?

All about the dollars, that 60 Bt is for RSS, not enough money to cover workers costs, wood electricity and taxes in my case.

My percentage tappers, say to much work for the extra few Baht, owner operator plantations, different story, they could make sheet, but small electric or hand rollers take for ever.

Now out here the locals can't get tappers, so they can only tap their best trees themselves, say 20 rai, leaving the other trees to stand idle.

Small plantations poor trees, the owners take other better paying jobs, when they can, or leave the wife to tap and head off to work in the city.

Local Doctor has about 200 rai, only has workers for 50 rai, so the output here will be down.

No one wants to work for peanuts, so you have to get at least the minimum wage, time will tell how much rubber is being produced.

Plus there is a drought, don't bother me much, we get too much rain, but inland from the mountains, it's dry as a bone and the rubber slows to a trickle, for some not worth the effort.

Thai's aren't really industrious in the first place, have rice and everything else is secondary.

About 8 years ago SIL and husband got a 50/50 split which included them making sheet...guess things have changed?

If I remember correctly they also 50/50 shared the cost of fertiliser and they had to spread it. Also the brush/weed cutting was totally their responsibility.
Our cutters 50/50 share fertiliser and brush/weed cutting costs...doubt they would include making sheets though.

Originally Posted by MeMock

Sorry to interrupt the Rubber thread but as you fellas are in the know, just wondering about Cassarva coming in from Laos to be sold in Thailand?
The village is all talking about that this morning. Coming and selling in Nam Yuen (Southern Ubon) and bringing the price down as a result.
Is this anything new? To do with ASEAN? Something else? Maybe just a first for this area.

Not heard of it, though the NY factory is the main [biggest] processor in the district, so no reason that cassava could not come from Lao.

But in saying that, I have not seen big trucks with Lao plates on the road.
Would make no difference to the price whether it comes from Lao or Timbuktu.

Could simply be, Lao speakers from my area, transporting the cassava to Nam Yuen, better price there and we have had an explosion of planters and buyers, rubber being down and all.

Originally Posted by crepitas

If I remember correctly they also 50/50 shared the cost of fertiliser and they had to spread it. Also the brush/weed cutting was totally their responsibility.
Our cutters 50/50 share fertiliser and brush/weed cutting costs...doubt they would include making sheets though.

Times have changed, just think of it this way, tappers used to make sheet.
Say 120 Baht a kilo, even if they only got say 100 kilos a week, there share was just under 20,000 bt.
Today a bit over 5,000 Bt, but the same amount of work and it's a lot of work, more work then just tapping.

So today, I have less tappers, tapping more trees, no sheet making.

Originally Posted by OhOh

How long, in years, would a mature rubber tree continue to give a good output if all fertiliser, irrigation or pruning stopped completely?

From a technical perspective leaving the tree unfertilised, unirrigated (seldom done anyway) and unpruned (really only done as saplings) will still give you latex without harm to the tree, but you'd have to do a minimum of d3 tapping (tap, rest, rest, tap, rest, rest) on a smaller cut, not the half circumference.

Originally Posted by OhOh

Would it not be an option to just tap the trees and leave everything else on hold, until the price increased?

Yup