The Holocaust

**barbaro** · 13-12-2006, 06:45 PM

A few - not many think it didn't happen or was exagerrated.

Any opinions and links and info. on this.

I think there was exterminations of various groups in the camps in Europe, but I'm curious as to the recent skeptics, and the laws in Europe calling it a crime to say it "didn't exist."

Over to you, folks....

**Butterfly** · 13-12-2006, 06:51 PM

The only thing we know for sure is that Jewish communities are maximizing their return on that sad event by using it as a poor excuse for Israel aggression on others.

I am sure the number are overestimated, that said, it doesn't really matter, even if it was 100,000 killed in death camps, it would have been the same catastrophe.

For sure, the 6 million figure is great advertising for the different jewish extremists. But it still happened, and we can't forget that. It almost happened again with Kosovo, so it seems that Europe didn't get rid of this bad habbit of ignoring (encouraging) ethnic cleansing

**raycarey** · 13-12-2006, 07:14 PM

many world war 2 era (more than 60 years ago!), european jews were victims of despicable crimes.

but 6 million?

now that ahmadinejad has audaciously (some would argue courageously) hosted the international conference on the holocaust, i think we'll find that independent historians begin to re-examine and eventually adjust their numbers.

**machangezi** · 13-12-2006, 07:18 PM

Well a conference on Holocaust just started in Tehran. It will end day after tomorrow. Let's wait and see.

**barbaro** · 13-12-2006, 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by raycarey

many world war 2 era (more than 60 years ago!), european jews were victims of despicable crimes.

but 6 million?

The six million is the number I'm beginning to be curious about.

How was this figure calculated and/or counted?

I know there were gypsies, homosexual, and people with disabilities at the camps.

Six million seems like a huge number, and this only the Jewish communities.

I'm just curious about how the number was brought about.

**stroller** · 13-12-2006, 07:27 PM

It should be easy enough to google.
I don't know much about it, but is Holocaust denial illegal across Europe? It has been illegal in Germany since 1985:

Germany's parliament passed legislation in 1985, making it a crime to deny the extermination of the Jews. In 1994, the law was tightened. Now, anyone who publicly endorses, denies or plays down the genocide against the Jews faces a maximum penalty of five years in jail and no less than the imposition of a fine.

**stroller** · 13-12-2006, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by Milkman

I know there were gypsies, homosexual, and people with disabilities at the camps.

...as well as communists, socialists and others actively opposing the Nazis.

**Butterfly** · 13-12-2006, 07:31 PM

I think the jewish lobby in Europe is trying to defend their 6 million trademark. It's all about business.

Even at 10,000 it's still an horrible number.

**Itchy** · 13-12-2006, 07:55 PM

Holocaust deniers should be treated to a trip around the Auschwitz-Birkenau Museum.

I've been there, it shook the very foundations of my beliefs in the idea of 'Civilized Humanity'.

**obsidian** · 13-12-2006, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by raycarey

now that ahmadinejad has audaciously (some would argue courageously) hosted the international conference on the holocaust, i think we'll find that independent historians begin to re-examine and eventually adjust their numbers.

terrible misread, raymond. this "conference" was a freak show and thus far anyway appears to have had the opposite effect. i am a fan ray but i am disheartened to see this easy grounder go between your lrgs.

**stroller** · 13-12-2006, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by raycarey

but 6 million?

They didn't all end up in the death camps, in the occupied territories many were gathered and killed on a local level. Actually, with some of the massgraves in the east it's not clear whether the Nazis or the Bolshevic army did the killing - but that would not account for a substancial adjustment of the figure.

**Boon Mee** · 13-12-2006, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by stroller

It has been illegal in Germany since 1985:

If they are going to ban that catchy tune, the Horst Wessel Song, they should ban Holocaust deniers...

**stroller** · 13-12-2006, 09:10 PM

That song, as other Nazi propaganda, is illegal in Germany, for any other purpose than historic education, but you may listen to it in private.

**man with no head** · 13-12-2006, 09:40 PM

It's hypocritical that the Holocaust gets so much attention when the Japanese did the same or worse in Asia.

Yet the Germans are left with perpetual feeling of guilt and shame (for something many alive today never had a finger in) while the topic of what the Japanese did is almost never discussed.

**stroller** · 13-12-2006, 09:49 PM

No guilt, but a bit of shame and a lot of awareness here.

Yes, (West-)Germany has 'digested' its history, Japan has not, you won't find many references to what they did in China in school- or history books.

**man with no head** · 13-12-2006, 09:59 PM

You won't find it in any one else's books either.

Not one word about it when I was in high school or college. It was post-college that I came to read about what the Japanese did.

Until that time the impression was that only the Germans did bad things. Well, that was before the Russians. Now we can blame everything on Muslims. Scapegoats are wonderful.

**mad_dog** · 13-12-2006, 10:19 PM

I think it is irooic that the same people who are condemning the holocaust "convention" in Tehran are the same ones who were rallying for freedom of speech with regards to to the senselessly provocative Prophet Mohammed cartoons.

The event in Iran is after all only a academic conference and already Tony Blair has described it as: "
I think it is such a symbol of sectarianism and hatred towards people of another religion, I find it just unbelievable," he said. "I found that this conference that they had questioning the Holocaust is shocking beyond belief."

The hypocracy of the western tyrants sickens me so much. All the "news" surrounding Iran at the moment is a drip, drip, drip of propaganda by the war mongers; the foundation of an excuse to murder more Muslims in order to "free" them.

I am beginning to feel so strongly about the tyranical nature of Britain that I feel it is immoral to live or pay taxes there. I refuse to sanction murder. I refuse to fund it. The chattering classes of the UK oppose but do nothing of any import. Blair should face the gallows and hang on the gates of hell.

**man with no head** · 13-12-2006, 10:22 PM

Ever notice how colonial powers invade other countries to 'change' their ways but when the reverse takes place the immigrants are the ones who are supposed to conform?

**stroller** · 13-12-2006, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by surasak

Until that time the impression was that only the Germans did bad things.

And no-one else was anti-semitic, the allies did all they could to stop the slaughter.

**obsidian** · 14-12-2006, 06:15 AM

Originally Posted by mad_dog

The event in Iran is after all only a academic conference

sixty nuts from thirty countres. academic conference....shit

**Begbie** · 14-12-2006, 06:27 AM

Excellent article in The Nation

Ahmedinejad living in a state of denial

^Ahmedinejad feels the power that comes with re-writing history. He enjoys taunting the West with the past that he denies. He understands the temptation of evil, the lure of forgetfulness. Above all, he is a practical man. It does Ahmedinejad no good for Europe to maintain a sense of history that must put it at cross-purposes with Iran.

Ahemdinejad's purpose is simple: find the weak spots in the chain that links Europe to its past and, through this past, to Israel and the US. Europe's choice is equally clear: to accept absolution for this past from the president of Iran, or to determine whether the standard of truth he applies to history is the same as he applies to nuclear weapons.

**Butterfly** · 14-12-2006, 08:40 AM

In any case, the Old Europe is responsible for the Hollocaust, not only Germany. It was so easy and conforting to ignore what was really happening.

I don't think the Japanese killed millions in their death camps ? or did they ?

Of course, the "palme d'or" for killing Jews and other minorities come to Stalin, but again, this is barely mentionned, maybe because evidence are insufficient or he didn't get caught red handed like Hitler and his friends. Also because the allies didn't defeat Stalin, so it would be pointless to demonize him for what he did.

**Wallace** · 14-12-2006, 11:00 AM

The scale of the slaughter of European jews only really became clear after the war ended. Given that Germany had lost, there would have been no real political mileage in trying to demonize them further. Anyway, the film reels and the living witnesses on both sides are testament to the truth of what happened. And those with an ounce of intelligence and common sense also understand that Stalin and Hirohito were just as bad as Hitler in the way they treated their opponents. What is astonishing is that Hirohito was allowed to stay on - he had supported Japan's warmongering in China and the decision to join Italy and Germany in the larger war against the Allies. We should all know that Stalin was tolerated because of his role in helping to defeat Nazi Germany. The allies were hardly in a position to dictate terms to him.

Perhaps the reason why the Holocaust receives so much more publicity is simply that the survivors settled more in the west and were able to demonstrate to the world what had happened. I don't see too many Chinese calling Japan to order over what happened there in the years leading up to World War 2. Or maybe it's just that western people don't get the exposure to these issues. Perhaps if they did Japan would be forced to confront its history more. As for what the Japanese did to Allied prisoners of war - there has been an ongoing movement to force the Japanese into a public apology since the war ended. The few remaining veterans still haven't given up and their cause receives a lot of publicity in the UK. Anyone who visits Kanchanaburi will hardly come away thinking the Japanese were nice people during this time.

**obsidian** · 14-12-2006, 04:45 PM

the chinese despise the japanese

**raycarey** · 14-12-2006, 05:24 PM

the international conference on the holocaust has already served its purpose by opening dialogue on this topic.

dismiss ahemdinejad at your own risk....he's a savvy politician, popular on the arab street, and (apparently) a true believer.

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