Thread: The Holocaust

Originally Posted by Milkman

I'm off topic of the thread here, but the French were very, very, brutal to the Vietnamese.

Not on the same scale as the Americans with the level of brutality that characterizes modern weapon technology.

And the brutality of America keeps on giving year after year despite the 'long' passage since the end of the VN war (mines, Agent Orange, etc).

Originally Posted by stroller

An interesting article by a Saudi:

Confronting Holocaust Denial
Western and Christian charities in the third world should take it upon themselves to inform Muslims and non-Muslims alike, in the areas where they are active, about the Holocaust.
...
Growing up as a child in Saudi Arabia, I remember my teachers, my mom and our neighbors telling us practically on a daily basis that Jews were evil, the sworn enemies of Muslims who's only goal was to destroy Islam. We were never informed about the Holocaust.

Hirsi Ali Takes on Tehran: Confronting Holocaust Denial - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

At the same time Western Christians are making the Muslims out to be the eternal bogeymen, so, the fertility of yet another Holocaustic harvest is being sown as we speak.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by Milkman

I'm off topic of the thread here, but the French were very, very, brutal to the Vietnamese.

Not on the same scale as the Americans with the level of brutality that characterizes modern weapon technology.

We're comparing apples and oranges in my opinion.

The French were far more brutal in my opinion.


Can you please cite your source on this?

Originally Posted by Milkman

Can you please cite your source on this?

Vietnam War Museum in HoChiMin City

Originally Posted by Lily

I don't have strong opinions one way or the other about Jews or Israel, but I find the growing acceptance of the idea that the holocaust either didn't happen or was exaggerated, really disturbing. ...

I strongly agree.

The Nazis themselves kept meticulous records. The historical record is very complete, including films and eye witness and survivor accounts.

The holocaust wiped out mainstream Judaism in Europe. You may as well deny that World War 2 ever happened.

Telling descriptors of anti-Holocaust propaganda:

- a refusal to post credible, cross-referenced links
- a similarity to Japanese nationalism in the strategy to attempt to re-write history, and pass this off as a "re-interpretation" of history
- a tendency to cite the absence of precise numbers of Jewish dead (as it may never be known exactly how many Jews perished) as consequent proof very few died
- the framing of the above within a Zionist conspiracy

Couple of questions:

1. Would the state of Israel exist today were it not for the Holocaust?
2. Does the fact that Jews were the victim of the Holocaust allow the state of Israel to commit atrocities because nations are afraid to speak out against them for fear of being called hypocritical? Heaven knows nations in Asia continue to use Japanese transgressions of the past as political Molotov cocktails when it suits them: is Israel capable of using the Holocaust as a means to an end?

Easy answers:

1. No
2. No

but again Europe and the US were so guilty in letting it happened, they had no choice. They knew what was going on and yet they couldn't do nothing even even if they could.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Easy answers:

1. No
2. No

but again Europe and the US were so guilty in letting it happened, they had no choice. They knew what was going on and yet they couldn't do nothing even even if they could.

WW2 was largely a failure of the League of Nations to act upon obvious evil aggression.

We are now seeing a similar failure of the United Nations taking steps to halt the current aggression by certain Islamic republics!

Is history repeating itself again perhaps as history so often does!

The UN should have intervened when the US did a Poland in Iraq!

Originally Posted by stroller

The UN should have intervened when the US did a Poland in Iraq!

OK...sure, and how do you suppose the UN could have accomplished that magic feat?

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Originally Posted by stroller

The UN should have intervened when the US did a Poland in Iraq!

OK...sure, and how do you suppose the UN could have accomplished that magic feat?

By clicking their heels together,wishing upon a star and singing "somewhere over the rainbow".

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by Milkman

Can you please cite your source on this?

Vietnam War Museum in HoChiMin City

Ah - a truly unbiased source of information.......

I believe it was called the War Crimes Museum when I visited it back in the mid-90s.......

Originally Posted by Whiteshiva

The Israeli lobbyists have milked the Holocaust for all it was worth, and then some.

Yep, right on and this is mostly the problem I have with those numbers. They are there to draw sympathy, not to learn from our mistakes. They are a distraction really from the real cause of the hatred.

Originally Posted by Whiteshiva

let us also fight against anyone who twists history to suit their own agenda.

Yes this is exactly what those groups have been doing, they are selling those numbers like it was a trademark, shameful really for all who died in those camps, that nobody deny that they existed.

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

WW2 was largely a failure of the League of Nations to act upon obvious evil aggression.

We are now seeing a similar failure of the United Nations taking steps to halt the current aggression by certain Islamic republics!

Is history repeating itself again perhaps as history so often does!

What aggression is that? What country got invaded or absorbed recently by another Islamic country?

The only nation in the Middle East grabbing land is Israel.

Originally Posted by Whiteshiva

The Israeli lobbyists have milked the Holocaust for all it was worth, and then some.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Yep, right on and this is mostly the problem I have with those numbers.

What are the real numbers, then? Are these numbers wrong?

The exact number of people killed by the Nazi regime may never be known, but scholars, using a variety of methods, including documentation from the nazis of determining the death toll, have generally agreed upon common range of the number of victims. Recently declassified British and Soviet documents have indicated the total may be somewhat higher than previously believed.[8] However, the following estimates are considered to be highly reliable. The estimates:

• About 6.0 million Jews, including 3.0–3.5 million Polish Jews[9]
• 1.8 –1.9 million non-Jewish Poles (includes all those killed in executions or those that died in prisons, labor, and concentration camps, as well as civilians killed in the 1939 invasion and the 1944 Warsaw Uprising)[10]
• 200,000–800,000 Roma & Sinti (Gypsies)
• 200,000–300,000 people with disabilities
• 80,000–200,000 Freemasons[11]
• 100,000 communists
• 10,000–25,000 homosexual men
• 2,500–5,000 Jehovah's Witnesses[12]

Raul Hilberg, in the third edition of his ground-breaking three-volume work, The Destruction of the European Jews, estimates that 5.1 million Jews died during the Holocaust. This figure includes "over 800,000" who died from "Ghettoization and general privation"; 1,400,000 who were killed in "Open-air shootings"; and "up to 2,900,000" who perished in camps. Hilberg estimates the death toll in Poland at "up to 3,000,000".[13] Hilberg's numbers are generally considered to be a conservative estimate, as they generally include only those deaths for which some records are available, avoiding statistical adjustment.[14] British historian Martin Gilbert used a similar approach in his Atlas of the Holocaust, but arrived at a number of 5.75 million Jewish victims, since he estimated higher numbers of Jews killed in Russia and other locations.[15]

Map titled "Jewish Executions Carried Out by Einsatzgruppe A" from the December 1941 Jäger Report by the commander of a Nazi death squad. Marked "Secret Reich Matter," the map shows the number of Jews shot in the Baltic region, and reads at the bottom: "the estimated number of Jews still on hand is 128,000". Estonia is marked as judenfrei ("free of Jews").


Lucy S. Dawidowicz used pre-war census figures to estimate that 5.934 million Jews died. Using official census counts may cause an underestimate since many births and deaths were not recorded in small towns and villages. Another reason some consider her estimate too low is that many records were destroyed during the war. Her listing of deaths by country of origin is available in the article about her book, The War Against the Jews.[16]
One of the most authoritative German scholars of the Holocaust, Prof. Wolfgang Benz of the Technical University of Berlin, cites between 5.3 and 6.2 million Jews killed in Dimension des Volksmords (1991), while Yisrael Gutman and Robert Rozett estimate between 5.59 and 5.86 million Jewish victims in the Encyclopaedia of the Holocaust (1990).[17]
The following groups of people were also killed by the Nazi regime, but there is little evidence that the Nazis planned to systematically target them for genocide as was the case for the groups above.

• 3.5–6 million other Slavic civilians
• 2.5–4 million Soviet POWs
• 1–1.5 million political dissidents

Additionally, the Ustaša regime, the Nazis' allies in Croatia, conducted its own campaign of mass extermination against the Serbs in the areas which it controlled, resulting in the deaths of 500,000–1.2 million Serbs.
The Holocaust - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I would like someone to explain why the above figures are wrong and where I might find more accurate data.

I've heard many people disparage these numbers without offering a plausible alternative.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

They are a distraction really from the real cause of the hatred.

And what woiuld the real cause of that hatred be, then?

Originally Posted by Whiteshiva

let us also fight against anyone who twists history to suit their own agenda.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Yes this is exactly what those groups have been doing, they are selling those numbers like it was a trademark, shameful really for all who died in those camps, that nobody deny that they existed.

Ok, if there is a more plausible explanation, I'd like to hear it, with links and cross-referenced data.

Originally Posted by Whiteshiva

Yes it was a genocide, yes around 6 million jews were murdered, but they were far from the only sufferers from the nazi occupation.

But the argument is not what the Israelis have done in the aftermath. It is whether the holocaust actually happened.

Whatever happened after and however the survivors and their descendents behave now has got nothing to do with whether it happened.

Holocaust deniers are using this bad behaviour of Israel's as an excuse to incite hatred and bolster their claims that it didn't happen.

I really think they know it happened but are saying 'they deserved it.'

Mr. Earl must be a Jew.
He keeps defending Israel and accuses those critical of it of anti-semitism.

Anti-Zionist |= anti-Semitic.