Thread: Islam Ctr Planned Next to Ground Zero

^ OK. You'll never know til it happens tho, will you?

Ya, those Indonesian muslims are so nice. We'll forget what they do to the people in Bali and Timor.

What was your question? I get so many, I forget.

Originally Posted by mr Fred

Of course all they arguments are based around not allowing Muslims in because of 9/11.
Can someone please explain why all Muslims are responsible for the actions of a few.

Rather like saying that the arguments against German national socialism were unfounded as not all Germans were bad people. Islam is fundamentally bad, not all Muslims were responsible for 9/11- Islam was.

^ Succinctly put. Thanks, crazy.

Sure, rather like saying that not all Christians are bad people. They were not all responsible for the Inquisition and the barbaric 'Conquest' of South America- Christianity was.

Originally Posted by sabang

Sure, rather like saying that not all Christians are bad people. They were not all responsible for the Inquisition and the barbaric 'Conquest' of South America- Christianity was.

Boxed yourself in there, SB. Dem were all Spanish Catholics.

^ Fred, fair points,

but you are notin 2 political movements (Irish, US) with an apparent religios one.

(A religious one sprinkled with political motivation perhaps.)

Well the ADL has come out against it-

An influential Jewish organization on Friday announced its opposition to a proposed Islamic center and mosque two blocks north of ground zero in Lower Manhattan, intensifying a fierce national debate about the limits of religious freedom and the meaning of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

The decision by the group, the Anti-Defamation League, touched off angry reactions from a range of religious groups, which argued that the country would show its tolerance and values by welcoming the center near the site where radical Muslims killed about 2,750 people.

But the unexpected move by the ADL, a mainstream group that has denounced what it saw as bigoted attacks on plans for the Muslim center, could well be a turning point in the battle over the project.

.... City officials, particularly Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg, have forcefully defended the project on the grounds of religious freedom, saying that government has no place dictating where a house of worship is located. The local community board has given overwhelming backing to the project, and the city’s landmarks commission is expected to do the same on Tuesday.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/31/ny...mosque.html?hp


That certainly ups the ante, but I still don't see Bloomberg and the NYC authorities backing down on this one.

Originally Posted by mr Fred

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

^ If it came to war, would you stand for England or for allah, Fred?

Depends on if the war was just or not.
If the Yanks managed to find a few lies and call them a reason to attack Indonesia (and the British PM joined in because the Yanks were paying him a pile of blood money to do it) I would fight for my family. They're Indonesians.
Of course the CIA hasn't attacked Indonesia for a long while now.

If the Yanks did ever decided to attack this place again I would have no problems shooting at an invading force.
Now if Indonesia attacked the UK, I would take my family to a neural country where they could be safe.
If the nutty brothers of the bomb attacked British (or any other) targets in Indonesia and I was in a position to do something about it, they would be considered my enemy.
Now have another one. I have a copper friend who was a a terrorist shoot out a while ago.
If he was in a position to kill a terrorist he would have pulled the trigger.
If I had been there and seen a terrorist about to kill him and I was in a position to kill that terrorist to save him, I would do so.
Both men are Muslims.
So how do you square your "all Muslims" stuff with the fact that many Muslims actually defend western targets against terrorists as in this case?
So how about my last question

It's a good point made Fred. I just wonder what is more important to any of us, could our religion or nationality ever outweigh our commitment to family members, our husband/wife/children/parents?

Personally i believe it inconceivable that religion or nationality could ever become more worthy than my family. Indeed i have often stated that if Britain was invaded whilst i was residing there i would try to be on the second plane out, after the royal family that is! They have no personal allegiance to myself or family so maybe they should not expect any support in return.

Our real enemy is religion and nationalism. They are not our friends, our family should always take precedence over any propaganda involving the two. Governments are there to balance the books and to see fair play for the citizens amongst other things. Religion is there to support those that believe in their faith and give solace.
Unfortunately, since time immemorial, governments and religions have been involving themselves in unnecessary wars. Citizens should not be coerced into supporting such actions, they have families/friends that could never be described as being second best to any government/religion. Dont defend your country, defend your family!

BTW, i agree that a terrorist is a terrorist whether he is of the same nationality/religion as yourself or other. He/she need not be Muslim or indeed attached to any religion or nationality.

Unfortunately, I for one probably wont be around when nationalism/religion is seen for the balderdash it really is!

Enjoy your life and your family, they will be always be number 1. Nothing else really matters

^ Of course, family is of paramount importance. However, the apathy and/or false sense of security many Western folks feel about issues makes you vulnerable. You say you would be on the second plane out. Out to where? What if no other country accepted British passports anymore or there is no second plane out?
Most folks' brains have atrophied, IMO; they are paying attention and caring only for their families and well-being, expecting their govts to take care of that other stuff. They have had peace for so long they forget that there are indeed enemies who want what we have and/or want to take over and change our way of life. When government policies control more of our freedoms (which demand each of us taking more responsibility, but why bother!) and people just expect peace, prosperity and entitlements, coz that's all they've known, we are simply like most Romans before that empire's fall. Frivolous, impervious to danger, focused on the minutiae of life.

Well, SB, I'm glad the ADL is taking a stand against the Cordoba joint. Bloomberg better pay attention now, even if permission for the bldg has already been granted. Remind me: what's among the first tasks when muslims conquer a country/region? They take over and raze the religious sites and build mosques there, don't they? That bldg site may not be across the street from the WTCs, but one of the planes' parts struck that bldg, no? There are plenty of mosques on NYC already -- about 90. That's enough. Let the Christians build a church on that spot.

Originally Posted by sabang

.... City officials, particularly Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg, have forcefully defended the project on the grounds of religious freedom, saying that government has no place dictating where a house of worship is located. The local community board has given overwhelming backing to the project, and the city’s landmarks commission is expected to do the same on Tuesday.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/31/ny...mosque.html?hp

Non-Muslims are not even allowed to enter the city of Mecca.

Try building a Christian Church or Jewish Mosque or Hindu temple in Saudi Arabia, let alone other muslim countries.

Muslims use the rights to their own advantage, but deny them to others.

Originally Posted by Nice Guy

Non-Muslims are not even allowed to enter the city of Mecca. Try building a Christian Church or Jewish Mosque or Hindu temple in Saudi Arabia, let alone other muslim countries.

If you are correct, I believe that it would be the government of Saudi Arabia that won't allow Christians into Mecca. There's no vote taken from all Muslims world wide that I know of.
If you are correct, I believe that it would be the government of Saudi Arabia that won't allow Christians into Mecca. There's no vote taken from all Muslims world wide that I know of.

Originally Posted by Nice Guy

Muslims use the rights to their own advantage, but deny them to others.

As does just about any other country. Seems to me that we lose if we forfeit our own values to retailiate. Shall we have a Western Sharia too?

^ Because of wimpy socialists, the US and other Western nations have largely lost their true values already. Countries need a firm framework. Fine, you can have different religions, ideas, etc, but the country's constitution and set of values come first. Fek with them, you're out. Why allow this mosque when we all know it's just a first step. Poor England and France. Look at what's happening there. Never mind Spain that capitulated to the terrorists after the train blowup.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Fine, you can have different religions, ideas, etc, but the country's constitution and set of values come first.

Ok, but then you say this:

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Why allow this mosque when we all know it's just a first step.

Why? Go back to your first quote, and then read this:

• First Amendment – Establishment Clause, Free Exercise Clause; freedom of speech, of the press, and of assembly; right to petition

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Did you care much when the previous gov't was shredding the constitution Jet?

Brave defenders bear in mind Islam was founded on the destruction of ancient civilizations and culture.
They're beloved Kaaba itself was originally home to various Christian and pagan deities alike.
Islam inherently has little or no respect for anyone else. They're bloodthirsty and bloody minded. Much of their claims to culture, art, science and medicine were directly stolen from the Egyptians, Greeks and Byzantine empire.
More than any other religion the prey upon the weak, poor and ignorant. They treat women like animals and summarily execute homosexuals.

If you're a Muslim you can be very proud!

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

They're beloved Kaaba itself was originally home to various Christian and pagan deities alike.

True.

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

Islam inherently has little or no respect for anyone else.

You could say the same about Christianity and Judaism.

In the main, the 'behaviour' of Christianity considerably improved after our culture went thru' the Age of Enlightenment. Basically, it became more secular and less closed minded and bigoted.

Within the Islamic world, there is a considerable struggle going on between Fundamentalism and secularism. Heck, there is even some of that still in the Christian & Jewish world. Witness that loony church in Fla that wants to burn copies of the Koran on Sept 11th, or the 'white supremacist' churches of southern Illinois & surrounds.

By failing to differentiate, and casting approbation on the whole of the religion, we are not helping encourage secularism at all- rather encouraging bigotry and Fundamentalism, at least at the margins.

Originally Posted by sabang

I don't see how the US invaded Iraq & Ghan, or precipitated the world financial crisis, because of wimpy Socialists.

Meanwhile those wimpy Chinese socialists are cleaning up.

The Chinese have never been wimpy and I would not say they are socialist today, would you? Commie in name, but their true capitalist spirit has been reignited.

Picks, your continued fight against whatever I post is hilarious. Now you're quoting the US Constitution about religion? You miss the whole point about Islam. It's not only religion, it's total subjugation of the people via sharia law, control of politics, justice, culture, education and the rules against it for women, and the oppression of women, for starters. WAKE UP.

Ah, true, Mr Earl! What are the libbies gonna do when the mozzies take over and kill all the homos? Bans bikinis? Bans women from driving? and on and on.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

kill all the homos

Loads of Homo's in Islamic countries. frikkin loads.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Bans women from driving?

The most famous racing car driver in Iran is a woman. She's a Hunny too.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Bans bikinis?

Beach in Turkey.

Yes, I should have clarified that those are the ultimate goals of Islam as I see it. Take over and change. Turkey? Ataturk totally changed the country, did he not, to modernise? Iran...didn't know they even had race cars. Oh, but they can't drive a male friend or colleague anywhere, but I guess you think that's OK.

Female drivers are not uncommon in Iran (unlike Saudi Arabia, where women are forbidden to drive) but there are still many restrictions on women. Iranians may not be in the company of an unrelated member of the opposite sex, a crime punishable with lashes or jail time. Public transportation is segregated, with women sitting in the rear of buses and on separate train cars, but the rules are more lax in cabs. Women commonly share taxis with male strangers in breach of Iranian law.

Read more: For Iranian Women, Cars Represent Both Limitations And Freedoms

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

I should have clarified that those are the ultimate goals of Islam as I see it.

Thankfully, counties whose populations are predominately Muslims don't agree with your "belief".

^ Just wait, Norts. You or your kids will be kicking yourselves for not believing me.

In Syria, Ban On Veil Raises Few Eyebrows

As a loud and controversial debate continues over wearing the Muslim face veil in Europe, Syria quietly imposed curbs Sunday on the niqab, the veil that exposes only the eyes.
In Syria, Ban On Veil Raises Few Eyebrows : NPR


Meanwhile, in a Galaxy nearby -

For the ninth anniversary of 9/11, the Dove World Outreach Center, a non-denominational church in Florida, is planning something special. They are organizing an “International Burn a Koran Day.”

You may have heard of the Dove World Outreach Center before. They are the same people that sell “Islam is the Devil T-Shirts,” set up a “no homo mayor” campaign, and preaches that gays hate free speech because they “don’t like to hear the truth about their perverted lifestyles.”

International Burn a Koran Day, Brought to You by The Dove World Outreach Center – IndyPosted


We could also look within our own society for signs of a struggle between religious bigotry and fundamentalism, and secularism.

Originally Posted by sabang

International Burn a Koran Day

Originally Posted by sabang

no homo mayor

Odd. Koran is aligned with Dove World Outreach Center programs. Why burn a book which agrees with your position.