Thread: Comments on a world without God.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

You don't believe in science, to say such a thing is utterly preposterous and indicates a serious deficit in your understanding.

your words, not mine, see below

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Or maybe I've evolved to the point that I don't feel a need to address my insecurities by believing in something external to me to explain everything.

Science is precisely something external trying to explain everything, exactly like religion, hence, you are as much a religious animal as anyone else

QED

Ummm, nope, that was not my intended meaning and you know it.

Please try again.

reality is the product of thought surely. the origins of thought are fear and desire. a desire for security especially in the so-called after-life . organised religions have fed this to the people and people lapped it up or had it rammed down their throat. the fear that we have today is always in the future . fear of suffering perhaps and then the grim reaper coming to visit .
buddha said ( i loath buddhism bty) but this is what i like about the buddha,, die every day or every moment .
so thought became continuous in the brain through centuries of bombardment with the organised religion,,, a product of man's thought ,, and there is nothing divine in that .
yes we need thought for our work, even going out to hunt for the bacon needs a plan . but today this thinking thinking 24 hrs. a day almost, is all about Self and when thought is absent ,,what do you have ? forget about a mystery,,, there is no mystery.

Originally Posted by FlyFree

A) You're missing my whole point, it would seem.

not even sure what point you are trying to make, advocating ignorance so it can yield "spontaneity" genius or originality seems to be coming right out of a Disney character book

so please, explain again what you are trying to say about books and education ? I note you purposely failed to answer that question

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Ummm, nope, that was not my intended meaning and you know it.

hum, you mean like a double standard ? saying something but you can't accept the consequence logic of its meaning

Science is also a form of religion, you do realize that, don't you ?

You got the donkey by the ass.

But not serious, we're all gonna die as idiots anyway, no matter how much we learn. So who cares?

The sun is setting, the autumn colours are ablaze in the garden. All I can see is nature, no man-made atrocities. Ze birds dem are a-chirping. Glorious.

Originally Posted by FlyFree

You got the donkey by the ass.

another Disney character I assume, I see your classic literature is at par with the best 20th century thinkers

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Ummm, nope, that was not my intended meaning and you know it.

hum, you mean like a double standard ? saying something but you can't accept the consequence logic of its meaning

I'm good with logic, it appears it passed you by...

I know what I meant, I think you do too. To argue otherwise is disingenuous of you.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Science is also a form of religion, you do realize that, don't you ?

No, because science is based upon facts. Measurable, observable, repeatable facts. Reality if you will.

Religion is manmade, conjured purely from the imagination and has no factual element to it whatsoever. It is total fantasy.

Amen to that

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Lots more here....

Atheist Quotes: Famous Atheism | Atheists NSD

Sneaky.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

...science is based upon facts. Measurable, observable, repeatable facts. Reality if you will.

Religion is manmade, conjured purely from the imagination and has no factual element to it whatsoever. It is total fantasy.

I disagree. Scientists hate religion because they cannot quantify it. If they cannot put it in a box, it must be fantasy. I seem to remember some physics that proves that things can move back and forth in time, which disproves previous theories. I suppose you also believe that no life exists beyond earth because there is no scientific proof?
Folks who have the so-called sixth sense and ability to see beyond what mere mortals can, likely created fables and stories to teach those without this ability. Hence, religion came to the fore. The problem is its various interpretations.
If you have never really meditated or had blessings, likely which you have ignored if you did receive some, you'll never get it. A very young soul boxed into a false reality. Pass the popcorn, wouldya?

pray jet,, what is meditation and what are blessings ? and false reality !!! what is this ?

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Lots more here....

Atheist Quotes: Famous Atheism | Atheists NSD

Sneaky.

I sneak therefore I am

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

...science is based upon facts. Measurable, observable, repeatable facts. Reality if you will.

Religion is manmade, conjured purely from the imagination and has no factual element to it whatsoever. It is total fantasy.

I disagree. Scientists hate religion because they cannot quantify it. If they cannot put it in a box, it must be fantasy.

No, actually religious "experiences" can be measured in the brain. One important piece of research found that religious people tend to have more Dopamine than those who don't have "faith". Areas of the brain that deal with religious experiences are well documented as well. Since fMRI has been used extensively it is possible to observe neurological processes happening in real time. Science is moving on, religion isn't. The workings of the brain, so long a mystery, are being unravelled rapidly.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

I seem to remember some physics that proves that things can move back and forth in time, which disproves previous theories. I suppose you also believe that no life exists beyond earth because there is no scientific proof?

No, I tend to follow mathematical probabilities in determining the likelihood of life elsewhere in the universe. It is highly likely life exists throughout the universe in different stages of development. You are presuming to know my thoughts, not a wise thing to do....

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Folks who have the so-called sixth sense and ability to see beyond what mere mortals can, likely created fables and stories to teach those without this ability. Hence, religion came to the fore. The problem is its various interpretations.
If you have never really meditated or had blessings, likely which you have ignored if you did receive some, you'll never get it. A very young soul boxed into a false reality. Pass the popcorn, wouldya?

What you describe are simply related to neurotransmitters. Mind altering drugs such as LSD 25 give people such experiences. There's nothing mystical in what you've portrayed. All of it can be explained via science, using facts.

While I accept that is your experience and your reality, perhaps you could consider what I've written. I don't wish to trivialise or diminish the experiences you've had as they have no doubt brought you comfort and contentment, but please understand, there is a lot of truth in what I've written.

^ Stronk Sneak, I said I suppose, I do not presume to know your thoughts, suppose as in perusing the ideas of your statements.
Sure, go with your MRIs and transmitters. That's fun. Sadly, your science cannot figure out where we go, what we learn and WTF we can often predict future events. You don't have the science to explain that yet, because...you try to complicate what is simple.
For me, premonition dreams can sometimes be a very bad gift and no, they are not play on demand.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

I'm good with logic, it appears it passed you by...

not that good actually, I suggest you read a few topics on dialectic exercise to improve your skills

You are only seeing one side of the story, and not focusing on the other side, and that's your big mistake.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

I know what I meant, I think you do too. To argue otherwise is disingenuous of you.

I know what you meant from your limited perspective, but you actual fail to take responsibility for the other side of your argument, that's what I am saying. Not disagreeing per se with your argument.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

No, because science is based upon facts. Measurable, observable, repeatable facts. Reality if you will.

is it really ? do we know precisely the temperature of the sun ? the distance of the universe ? we can't even measure strings or the 10+1 dimension, only making estimates and guess about their existence. Scientific theories that we took as the corner stone of Science are being questioned eventually and put everything on a different perspective. Movement and revolution even within the rock hard reality of Science

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Religion is manmade, conjured purely from the imagination and has no factual element to it whatsoever. It is total fantasy.

Yes religion is man made, it's a product of man, because it's the only way we have to interpret the world. We are all religious animals, we need to believe in a model of reality that is not reality. How do we know what we see or feel is even real ? you can't technically, it's only your brain interpretation of your "physical" experience. For all we know we could all be connected to a big Matrix

This is exactly the same logic as Descartes employed when he was questioning reality.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

^ Stronk Sneak, I said I suppose, I do not presume to know your thoughts, suppose as in perusing the ideas of your statements.
Sure, go with your MRIs and transmitters. That's fun. Sadly, your science cannot figure out where we go, what we learn and WTF we can often predict future events. You don't have the science to explain that yet, because...you try to complicate what is simple.
For me, premonition dreams can sometimes be a very bad gift and no, they are not play on demand.

I know what happens when we die.

Some worms get real happy and fat.

That's it.

As regards predictions/premonitions. Again there's no evidence to suggest such dreams are real or true or even nothing more than coincidence or at best some unconscious reaction to events occurring in the real world. But actual premonitions? Nope...

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

No, because science is based upon facts. Measurable, observable, repeatable facts. Reality if you will.

is it really ? do we know precisely the temperature of the sun ? the distance of the universe ? we can't even measure strings or the 10+1 dimension, only making estimates and guess about their existence. Scientific theories that we took as the corner stone of Science are being questioned eventually and put everything on a different perspective. Movement and revolution even within the rock hard reality of Science

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Religion is manmade, conjured purely from the imagination and has no factual element to it whatsoever. It is total fantasy.

Yes religion is man made, it's a product of man, because it's the only way we have to interpret the world. We are all religious animals, we need to believe in a model of reality that is not reality. How do we know what we see or feel is even real ? you can't technically, it's only your brain interpretation of your "physical" experience. For all we know we could all be connected to a big Matrix

This is exactly the same logic as Descartes employed when he was questioning reality.

Quick reply...going out soon.

First part, you seem to be confusing theory and facts.

Second part, by your own reasoning interpretations of reality are just that and as such are highly likely to be wrong. Therefore, religion is manmade interpretations or imaginings if you like and thus it has no basis in reality and is extremely likely to be utterly wrong.

I would also add there's absolutely no evidence whatsoever for any divine presence or guiding hand.

As regards our perceived reality, which of course is an unrelated topic, I agree that it is highly likely we are not fully aware of all that is around us....yet. Science will provide the answers via rigorous testing and facts will be arrived at, eventually.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

^ Stronk Sneak, I said I suppose, I do not presume to know your thoughts, suppose as in perusing the ideas of your statements.
Sure, go with your MRIs and transmitters. That's fun. Sadly, your science cannot figure out where we go, what we learn and WTF we can often predict future events. You don't have the science to explain that yet, because...you try to complicate what is simple.
For me, premonition dreams can sometimes be a very bad gift and no, they are not play on demand.

I know what happens when we die.

Some worms get real happy and fat.

That's it.

As regards predictions/premonitions. Again there's no evidence to suggest such dreams are real or true or even nothing more than coincidence or at best some unconscious reaction to events occurring in the real world. But actual premonitions? Nope...

Because of the fact you are submitting posts I assume you have not died, and as you have not died you can only know what happens to the physical body, you can not really know what happens when we die.

Originally Posted by RPETER65

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

^ Stronk Sneak, I said I suppose, I do not presume to know your thoughts, suppose as in perusing the ideas of your statements.
Sure, go with your MRIs and transmitters. That's fun. Sadly, your science cannot figure out where we go, what we learn and WTF we can often predict future events. You don't have the science to explain that yet, because...you try to complicate what is simple.
For me, premonition dreams can sometimes be a very bad gift and no, they are not play on demand.

I know what happens when we die.

Some worms get real happy and fat.

That's it.

As regards predictions/premonitions. Again there's no evidence to suggest such dreams are real or true or even nothing more than coincidence or at best some unconscious reaction to events occurring in the real world. But actual premonitions? Nope...

Because of the fact you are submitting posts I assume you have not died, and as you have not died you can only know what happens to the physical body, you can not really know what happens when we die.

Indeed and neither can you, and neither can any religion or faith explain it....but they try, oh how they try. Further evidence, as if any were needed, that religion is manmade hokum.

Any suggestion of an afterlife or spirit is equally invalid. Find any evidence to backup such a claim. There's none.

^You gotta be patient, they've only been searching a few thousand years for their evidence... They're slow ya know....

The sad thing about it for me is I'd love there to be a god and an afterlife. I've lost some folks very close to me and I'd really like to see them again. Nothing would make me more happy or bring me more joy than to know this isn't it.

So, please, someone, anyone, produce some evidence.

But I know it isn't going to happen. It can't and wont.

Life isn't a dress rehearsal. Live it.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

As regards our perceived reality, which of course is an unrelated topic, I agree that it is highly likely we are not fully aware of all that is around us....yet. Science will provide the answers via rigorous testing and facts will be arrived at, eventually.

it's not an unrelated topic, it's exactly the topic. Are you sure logic is your strong ?

Science will provide partial answers only in a context we can understand or model of reality, hardly the cold reality that we may never witness. The foundation of Science is based on a few assumptions that haven't been proved by anything (assumptions based on the number 0)

facts are only interpreted in our model of reality, therefore they mean different things to different people, disagreement over facts even by Scientists. Hence, the religious reality.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

First part, you seem to be confusing theory and facts.

hardly, in Science they are highly correlated. There is observation, then theory, and then testing with measurements. That's the last part which is the main problem, because it will depend on our model of reality and of course will consequently question the theory. The issue of measurement is quite central in Science because it's hardly reliable and require certain "faith" on facts to pursue it, like in religion.

No, like I said, you seem to be confusing facts and theories previously. I never said I was.

There are shortcomings in aspects of scientific research methodology, but the wonderful thing about it is, that these will be addressed in time and as much as it's possible for us to reveal and comprehend will be gleaned. Science advances constantly.

If you wish to debate the reality of numbers, by all means go and knock yourself out. Of course there are assumptions about our reality. Our sensory perception is rather limited.

However, none of this pointless rambling by you furthers your point in the slightest. You can criticise elements of science and of course it isn't without its failings, but you can not prove or provide even the slightest shred of evidence to back up your assertions.

It is because you say it is, seems to be about as far as you can go. That's simply not anywhere near to a compelling argument.