Thread: Comments on a world without God.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

agree but only for an educated minority. It remains relevant for a majority, mostly uneducated, that would be more happy to return to the stone age. We remain vicious and salvage animals deep down

Make your mind up butters. You say man is a religious animal and religion brought us out of the caves, now you say we are savages, happy to go back there.
Which is it to be.
Given a reasonable education, and freedom from queer priests, most would choose to follow therie own path to enlightenment.
Globalisation has taken away the need for religion for the majority.
The only ones who still believe are in the dark ages, afraid of being cast into the inferno.
Having said that, if someone like you, who claims to be well versed in such things is a believer, perhaps you are the exeption that proves my rule.
Looper is right and you are wrong.

Originally Posted by chassamui

You say man is a religious animal and religion brought us out of the caves, now you say we are savages, happy to go back there.

ah, I always knew you were a bit "impaired" in terms of logic (aren't you swiss ?), but frankly it's not hard to understand. We are animals, we need "education", the beginning of civilization is "religion", without it we go back to the animal stage. Easier now ?

Originally Posted by chassamui

Globalisation has taken away the need for religion for the majority.

globalization has only serve a few economically and certainly not the majority in terms of education, and guess what, that didn't stop "religion" and the religious extremists, worse they have spread thanks to globalization.

Originally Posted by chassamui

Having said that, if someone like you, who claims to be well versed in such things is a believer

you will find that a lot of scientists, doctors and all kind of educated people have become highly religious, and it's not uncommon to see the 2 extreme of society, the highly educated and the poorly educated to share a common religious beliefs. Actually, scientists have said that their "devotion" has come from their work, that is the more they learn and discover things, the more they were convinced that a god existed.

Originally Posted by chassamui

Looper is right and you are wrong.

you are an ignorant fool and live in the Swiss mountains so who cares

Originally Posted by Butterfly

intrinsically it doesn't need to be, but in the early days it was needed to establish credibility or authority

So would you say that we can have a "social contract" as in "morals" without involving a deity, a religion, an all powerful dictator?

Originally Posted by jandajoy

So would you say that we can have a "social contract" as in "morals" without involving a deity, a religion, an all powerful dictator?

nope, not on a large scale of population like we have, it could work on a very small community, but not with millions of people to manage, you need an "authority" figure to control our "civility"

if you look at Communism, it's exactly what it tries to do, a "social contract" without "interference", but it's after years of brutal dictatorship, to break our "animal instinct"

I vcould argue the point with you all day and all night butterfly. trouble is, you only disagree and contradict others in order to extend the debate.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

ah, I always knew you were a bit "impaired" in terms of logic (aren't you swiss ?), but frankly it's not hard to understand. We are animals, we need "education", the beginning of civilization is "religion", without it we go back to the animal stage. Easier now ?

We are highly developed mammals who have evolved despite religion, not because of it.
you need education to get you over this mental defect that tells you religion is necessary or even essential to the current well being of man. It is not and bever has been.
Religion has been responsible for millions of deaths over the centuries. It is an impediment to further progress for humanity. It may well be a stage we have to go through, in order to appreciate that a god does not exist, and we are quite capable of managing without one.
I honestly believed you were being sargumentative for the sake of it, but maybe you are as dumb as the shite you spout after all.

man has it in himself to be a monster or a buddha , people are conditioned from an early age to believe . ie the majority. fear rules the roost and we will do whatever is necessary to secure our security .and protect our pleasures . almost every important decision a man makes has a pleasure angle attached to it . desire . and what will you do to safeguard your pleasure ? btw you will not be, like a buddha by practicing buddhism .thought created the self and there would be no thinker if there were no thought.

Originally Posted by chassamui

argue the point with you all day and all night butterfly.

to be honest, I don't think you have the brain capacity to argue anything, I have a feeling you are not mentally equipped for that kind of debate

Originally Posted by chassamui

and we are quite capable of managing without one.

assumptions, assumptions, assumptions

I wonder what god you believe in, probably a nasty one

Originally Posted by Butterfly

assumptions, assumptions, assumptions

Mine is based on consumption, not assumption, you chump. If you provide a link to prove that this god of yours exists, then i will provide one to prove he doesn't.

I wonder what god you believe in, probably a nasty one

Surely you have worked it out by now, you being such a clever chap and all?

^ sorry, I was a philosophy major at one point, so yes I read plenty of books on the topic of shit

Originally Posted by Butterfly

it could work on a very small community, but not with millions of people to manage, you need an "authority" figure to control our "civility"

Seems like you are arguing the case for telling the masses that God exists for practical reasons of keeping them in order rather than adressing the philosphical question of whether or not he does exist. You have said that you think that Man needs to believe in God for social order but do you yourself actually believe that God does exist?

I think religious fear was a primitive tool in maintaining social order but the common law system, a police force and the penal code are much more efficient and, crucially, capable of adapting to the shifting mores of society as it evolves its ideas about right and wrong, which religion, with its inflexible absolutism, is not.

Originally Posted by Looper

keeping them in order rather than adressing the philosphical question of whether or not he does exist.

I think those 2 issues are fundamentally different, religion and the possible existence of god. Most people are confused and merged those 2 together. They have nothing to do with each other. Religion obviously doesn't prove that God exist, only that you believe in it. Only scientific and philosophical logic and exercise, not religious logic and exercise, can lead to a debate whether god exist or not.

Originally Posted by Looper

You have said that you think that Man needs to believe in God for social order but do you yourself actually believe that God does exist?

I believe that something does exist that is at the origin of our universe or is a framework of our universe. I don't believe it's a being, more like a thing. So yes technically I am a god believer. I think it's impossible for man not to believe in some form of god. Those who deny it are just repressing themselves, like a catholic priest repressing his love for Choir boys

Originally Posted by Looper

I think religious fear was a primitive tool in maintaining social order but the common law system, a police force and the penal code are much more efficient

definitely, but eventually the social infrastructure could break as "physical" disturbances take its toll. An authoritative being that is mystic and that nobody can see can keep your social order forever

I still think your beliefs are based on archaic principles of the very issue that you support.
You fear the absence of a god becauise, the existence of your god is your own social and psychological safety net.
It also underlines your personal insecurities, that you have to hold on to something so mythical as a 'god'.
I think you are confusing god and religion with faith.

^ jesus Chass, logic wasn't your strong in School

Religion is based on faith, and what define man better than faith and beliefs

not sure why again you are taking all this so personally, afraid to find god ?

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Religion is based on faith, and what define man better than faith and beliefs

Religion is based on fear and control.
I think a healthy dose of reality is much better than blind faith, brought on by people selling fear in order to gain power.
As far as logic is concerned, it obviously has no place in the magical world of the butterfly.
nothing personal butters, i just disagree with your warped views.

^ told you you weren't equipped for a debate

you fear god like anyone else, you just don't know it yet

Originally Posted by Butterfly

you fear god like anyone else

Would that be the all forgiving, all seeing, all knowing, all charitable god of compassion and love that rules through fear of eternal damnation?

That produced the 10 commandments, that start with;

"I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me..."


"Do not make an image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..."


"Do not swear falsely by the name of the LORD..."


Do this or other wise your foked. (my words not gods)

The Christian god?

Is that the one you reckon he's frightened of?

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by Looper

You have said that you think that Man needs to believe in God for social order but do you yourself actually believe that God does exist?

I believe that something does exist that is at the origin of our universe or is a framework of our universe. I don't believe it's a being, more like a thing.

Blurring the distinction between Deist and Theist gods does not really move the discussion forward.

You are saying that a theist God (one that is intimately concerned with the moral decisions of each human at an individual level) is the one that needs to exist in order for society not to fall into chaos. But you say that you only believe in a Deist god (one that is a mystical power at the source of the existence of the universe but is not concerned with the moral behaviour of humans).

Is that correct or do you also think there is a God that can see into your thoughts and who gets concerned if you act in a way that is not in accordance with a social and moral manifesto he has set down?

Do you believe your consciousness persists as a 'soul' after your heart stops beating?

Do you believe that this God is interested in punishing or rewarding your 'soul' once it has left your body based on a scorecard of your thoughts and actions?

^^ you are confusing a religious god with the real God. We are intrinsically all believers, that's what I am saying. Some will recognize it through religion, others will repress it, and others will accept the existence without further proof, may it be Religious, Science or anything.

There may be a God but does he give a shit?

Originally Posted by Looper

You are saying that a theist God (one that is intimately concerned with the moral decisions of each human at an individual level) is the one that needs to exist in order for society not to fall into chaos. But you say that you only believe in a Deist god (one that is a mystical power at the source of the existence of the universe but is not concerned with the moral behaviour of humans).

that is correct,

Originally Posted by Looper

Do you believe your consciousness persists as a 'soul' after your heart stops beating?

I don't, but I might be wrong

Originally Posted by Looper

Do you believe that this God is interested in punishing or rewarding your 'soul' once it has left your body based on a scorecard of your thoughts and actions?

nope, and I might be wrong again

however I do believe that certain behavioral pattern will bring a "certain justice" onto you

A world without God and what a wonderful world it would be.

Hitchens vs Hitchens.

C.Hitchens in full flow;

Originally Posted by Butterfly

you are confusing a religious god with the real God

What's the difference, in YOUR view?


Secondly, "a real God" ? as adverse to "a not real God", I presume.

See my reply above, Looper explained it better than I could