Thread: koran, allah, and all things islam

Originally Posted by sabang

A'isha, or Ayeesha. Actually, the first virgin he took for his wife. Quite a woman she grew into, if you want to read the history.

Quite a woman, and also the source of modern day embarrassment to Muslims and things best not discussed, and probably best to validate some of the more outlandish accounts attributed to her before posting.

As Mohamed's favourite wife, she was on a longer leash than the others; for example, when his wives revolted against his philandering. Mohamed came out with a timely revelation from Allah that scolded him for trying to please all of them and not sleeping with other women, and which went on with a caution to them to stop making waves otherwise he would divorce them and they would all go to hell. End of uprising, though Aisha observes: "Verily, your lord [Allah] is ever quick to fulfill your whims and desires."

Originally Posted by keda

The Koran and Hadith are perfect texts, handed down by god, and anything removed or added or altered must implicitly corrupt the perfect, so that it becomes imperfect.

so....just like the bible.

Originally Posted by keda

Rushdie has been under 24/7 protection ever since at the cost of quite a packet over the past two decades.

fortunately he's still somehow able to escort supermodels to U2 concerts.

Originally Posted by crazy dog

Originally Posted by sabang

A'isha, or Ayeesha. Actually, the first virgin he took for his wife. Quite a woman she grew into, if you want to read the history.

That's the 6 year old, he had at least 12 wives, not surprising she was a virgin. Took is the operative word and still is today in too many cases.

My problem with that is minor compared to repugnance at 21st c Muslims abusing Western principles of religious freedom by demanding the right to 4 wives, each of whom may be young enough for them all to be carried at once.

According to some Islamic clerics, it is not only an entitlement but a duty for good Muslims to marry prepubescent girls, because Mohamed did. Only, Mohamed's first wife was 15 years older than him (25 / 40), and I have not heard any clerics proclaim it a Muslim duty to do the same. Could be convenience, or evil, but something sure stinks.

Originally Posted by keda

According to some Islamic clerics, it is not only an entitlement but a duty for good Muslims to marry prepubescent girls,

the same is true for some christian leaders....particularly those living in utah.

Originally Posted by raycarey

Originally Posted by keda

The Koran and Hadith are perfect texts, handed down by god, and anything removed or added or altered must implicitly corrupt the perfect, so that it becomes imperfect.

so....just like the bible.

Please explain, if your keyboard allows you to rap out more than a couple of lines per post.

Originally Posted by keda

Rushdie has been under 24/7 protection ever since at the cost of quite a packet over the past two decades.

fortunately he's still somehow able to escort supermodels to U2 concerts.[/QUOTE]

Oh, that's ok then. How about an auspicious word or two in support or condemnation of the fatwa? That would be nice.

the bible is littered with exclamations of how it's a perfect text and warnings about not altering it in any way whatsoever.

Is it, can you give us 5 or 6 of these many exclamations then, I really think you have no idea what the bible says. The bible is almost the opposite of the koran in respect of the many changes of content and translations over the centuries. The problem rag heads have when ranting about the perfectness of the koran, as it has never been altered (so they claim) and is in the original language, is in explaining away it's many contradictions. They usually get around this embarrassing flaw by saying that where there is a conflict the later 'revelation' superceeds the earlier one. Of course this sometimes leads to even more embarrassing suras having to be taken as 'perfect' It's all a pile of shit anyway of course

Originally Posted by crazy dog

Is it,

yes, it is.

Originally Posted by crazy dog

can you give us 5 or 6 of these many exclamations then,

5 or 6, eh?

why not 7 or 8?

hell, how about 9 or 10?

Originally Posted by crazy dog

I really think you have no idea what the bible says.

well, we can add that to the list of things you're completely wrong about. btw, the list is growing pretty fast.

anyway.... a quick google search brought up this......

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Deuteronomy 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

and revelations ends with this:

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

The mo was a pedo, pure and simple, been stated even by the mussies, great religion that condones this crappo. Let's see how may reds I get from all the pc nutters.

^Telling the truth, why should you get reddies ?

Originally Posted by Norton

Originally Posted by crazy dog

the perfectness of the koran, as it has never been altered (so they claim) and is in the original language

Mohammad never saw the final Arabic version of the Koran. Little if any is belived to have been actually written by Mohammad but rather in bits and pieces by his followers over many years as he received the word of god from the angel Gabriel. The official version now used was compiled well after his death. Had Mohammad a chance to read the final version he would likely have said in some areas, "That's not what Gabriel told me". IMO the Koran is no more perfect than the bible.

Correct, none of the Koran could have been written by Mohamed because he was illiterate, and Islam makes no bones about that. He had a scribe. As you say, and just like the other major religions' holy texts, the Koran was compiled by people that lived later and did not know Mohamed personally, on the strength of oral traditions relayed through the years - in the same perfect form as the original.

Btw, that scribe mentioned earlier was put to death by Mohamed, for recommending changes to the words that Mohamed dictated, since the grammar and usage were not eloquent enough for Allah. Mohamed agreed, at first, and then later accused the scribe of apostasy since anything from Allah is immutable and not subject to change.

Perhaps someone could throw some light on which revelation indulged Mohamed for agreeing with the scribe in the first place.

Originally Posted by Eliminator

The mo was a pedo, pure and simple, been stated even by the mussies, great religion that condones this crappo. Let's see how may reds I get from all the pc nutters.

He was a pedo to our reckoning here in the 21st c West. He was probably not a pedo or its equivalent 1400 years ago in the Arabian Peninsula. At worst, he may have lowered the traditional prepubescent age from 10 or 11, to 9 for vaginal intercourse, and 6 for other forms of sex.

Islam today agrees on 9 as the minimum age for vaginal sex with a wife, though clerics disagree on the marriageable age for other forms of sex, from 6, mimicking Mohamed, down to as low as one-day, though I hardly imagine that is more than a principle.

The problem kicks in with Islam sponsoring perfection that applies not just to Mohamed's time and place and under those conditions, but for every Muslim everywhere and for all time. Here lies a significant clue to Islam's incompatibility with Western civilisation and progress.

Woman opens first bank account in Lebanon

BEIRUT (AFP)

A Lebanese woman opened a bank account in the name of her underage children on Thursday, setting a precedent in a country where females often face legal discrimination.

"I've been trying to open a bank account for my two sons for 10 years now, but I was continuously told that only my husband could sign the papers," Lebanese-American Barbara Batlouni told AFP.

"It's unfair. They're my children too and I don't see why I cannot, as their mother, teach them to manage their finances," she said at the headquarters of Bank of Beirut and the Arab Countries (BBAC).

Her move came after Lebanon's bank association altered its own rules on December 9, following a campaign to press for the change led by the Institute of Progressive Women and other groups.

A smiling Batlouni signed the first papers at BBAC for an account that named as beneficiaries her two sons, 16-year-old Samer and 14-year-old Jad.

"I'm glad that Lebanon is improving its laws," said Samer, who along with Jad will become the official holder of the account once he turns 18.

The bank also gifted her a 1,000-dollar (790-euro) cheque as a token of their appreciation for her "fight against discrimination," BBAC general manager Ghassan Assaf said.

While the boys' father is Lebanese, Batlouni, the Lebanon country director of the non-profit organisation Amideast, said she insisted on opening the account herself on principle.

"Lebanese women excel in all fields, and yet they do not have their basic rights," she said.

News | Woman opens first bank account in Lebanon

A sign of progress, and all power to the Institute of Progressive Women. Who knows, by 2020 the Lebs may allow women traffic wardens.

Originally Posted by keda

Islam today agrees on 9 as the minimum age for vaginal sex with a wife

nonsense.

who or what is this 'islam' you refer to?

show examples of muslim organizations or countries (anywhere in the world) that agree that 9 is the minimum age for vaginal sex.

good luck.

Here are some excerpts from a Palestinian Children's TV show, aired on Dec 1st.


TV Host: There used to be a girl, who was a student at medical school. She lived in a refugee camp called Al-Am'ari. the Al-Am'ari camp, my dear children, is located near the city of Ramallah in occupied Palestine.

[Wafa Idris] went to the commander of the resistance, and asked to carry out a martyrdom operation. What, a girl carrying out a martyrdom operation?! She said: I want to carry out a martyrdom operation, just like any young man in the resistance. Obviously, the commander hesitated at first, because this was the first time such a thing happened. Since the beginning of the Intifada, no Palestinian girl had carried out a martyrdom operation. But Wafa insisted, until she managed to convince the commander that the Zionists would not pay attention to a girl. Usually, they only inspect the young men. So the commander agreed. In light of her determination, courage, and persistence - he agreed.

--------------

Second boy: Wasn't Wafa afraid among the occupiers? Didn't she hesitate?

TV Host: Of course not. She wasn't afraid, and she did not hesitate, because she placed Allah between her eyes and in her heart. She would always remember Allah and would crush her fear. If fear wanted to come near her calm and peaceful heart, she would get ready to enter Paradise, knowing that she would be among the living, who are sustained [by God]. Who are they? The martyrs.

--------------

Wafa fulfilled her wish by successfully carrying out her martyrdom operation. The result was that she killed an Israeli soldier and wounded about a hundred. Why was Wafa martyred? So that the flower of the homeland would not wither.

--------------

Third boy: When was she martyred?

TV Host: Wafa Idris was martyred on Sunday, January 27, 2002. She has become a role model for any Palestinian girl who harbors the spirit of self-sacrifice, national sentiment, and love of death for the sake of Allah and in defense of the homeland.

Young girl: I want to become a doctor like Wafa, so that I can help the wounded.

TV Host: Allah willing, we will all become like Wafa Idris. We will treat the wounded, and Allah will grant us martyrdom.

MEMRI: Sheik Tells Children the Story of Palestinian Female Suicide Bomber Wafa Idris, Concluding: Allah Willing, We Will All Become Like Wafa Idris


Surely nothing religious about this, heh?

Anyone care to share their thoughts on the barbarity of brainwashing children towards hatred and martyrdom for the sake of Allah?

Still, we can take comfort in knowing deep down all they want is peace, so that's ok then.

Originally Posted by the dogcatcher

You asked for it.

link?

Originally Posted by raycarey

Originally Posted by the dogcatcher

You asked for it.

link?

http://freethinker.co.uk/features/fatwa-culture-and-the-juvenile-muslim-mind/

You asked for it.

Originally Posted by the dogcatcher

Originally Posted by raycarey

Originally Posted by the dogcatcher

You asked for it.

link?

http://freethinker.co.uk/features/fatwa-culture-and-the-juvenile-muslim-mind/

You asked for it.

Very interesting link, but pearl before the swine to those who only want to argue from the point of ignorance rather than from reality.

I thought the quotes this fellow used from Muslim clerics were quite enlightening.

As for governments, I don't think Iran has changed much in the last 20 years.
The late Ayatollah Khomeini, Iran’s spiritual leader seemed to think it was ok to bugger babies.

The other point is that this fellow is now no longer Muslim, and his reasons for this are quite clear me thinks.