Ukraine war mega thread

[Takeovers]

There are no knights in shining armour in the Ukraine conflict that I can see.

We are well aware that you are blind on that eye.

[helge]

For 50 years I have been largely critical of US policies and suspicious of the motives of the Military-Industrial complex

Bingo

I am also able to see that the alternatives -RUssia, China, BRICS, etc. - are no better and often worse.

Another bingo

It really seems to me that the only countries that are really admirable are Canada, most of the EU, Japan, etc... Though they all have their own problems.

As for the EU, I'm sure that one of the reasons for it's existence, was to counter and balance out the US.

Or so the Union romantics saw it.



Many europeans are piss tired with the sole superpower, that is around nowadays.

And so is the chinese and probably a great deal of the other future powers.

The US knows that and does its best to contain the "threats".

the Ukrainians as the flawed heroes.

A goverment and elite of nationalistic tools and a population who's paying the price.

Nothing new there.


An ongoing civil war in the east, that gave excuse and/or oppurtunity for an escalation.

Fact.

Should have been stopped on way or the other

You can pick yourself who's to blame.


Good post btw

[helge]

We are well aware that you are blind on that eye.

"We" ?

When is the coronation ?

[Backspin]

Poland has made up a large part of the post August force in Ukraine. Their conscription is set to start

Up to 200,000 Poles to be called up for military training next year | Notes From Poland

[panama hat]

"We" ?

All apart from three or four posters.

QWERTY's post was spot on and that includes the Ukrainians being the victims.
Yes, they had an unsavoury reputation in Europe pre-invasion, but to take away from Russia's sole responsibility for murder is judging the countless civilian victims as being as 'bad' as you make their leadership sound.

They didn't deserve being killed, maimed, homeless etc ...

In this case, I see the near-Fascist Russian aggressor state as the clear villain and the Ukrainians as the flawed heroes.

Quite

[sabang]

^ Don't the Donbas people, killed in their thousands by the Kiev government after the 2014 Maidan Coup, count as victims in your lexicon PH? Or the victims of the Odessa and Mariupol massacres?

[helge]

All apart from three or four posters.

Is "all" 6-7 posters ?

is judging the countless civilian victims as being as 'bad' as you make their leadership sound.

And I judge that as ..bullshit

The electorate certainly has been irresponsible and ignorant when they elected those tools.

Maybe even fooled,

Goes for the russian one too.

Still nobody deserves this, although it could be expected.

Well done, Germany and France.

You could have stopped it

[pickel]

^ Don't the Donbas people, killed in their thousands by the Kiev government after the 2014 Maidan Coup, count as victims in your lexicon PH? Or the victims of the Odessa and Mariupol massacres?

The killings didn't start until Putin injected his little green men into the country. The traitors are also guilty of killing, and are a minority who should have just moved to Russia.

[sabang]

Well done, Germany and France.

You could have stopped it

That might be questionable, given the lockstep goosemarch pursued by US State and those other assholes in the Kiev coup installed government- but the thing is, they didn't even try.

[helge]

but the thing is, they didn't even try.

But they did admit that it was all a hoax.

Buying time for extremists on both sides to load up.


If Merkel and Hollande is to be trusted this time.....then it is a fact.

[Hugh Cow]

My 'reputation' on TD (snigga) has only hit 'rock bottom' amongst our resident boneheads. I could think of few higher accolades.
I am not sorry it offends you minions, but US foreign policy this century absolutely sucks big, hairy ones. The proof is in the pudding.

Noone could deny that America has made some big mistakes. Sadly that's what dominant powers do. They play the game to protect or enhance their dominance. That has not changed for centuries. Even internally they have made some monumentally bad decisions from prohibition to McArthyism just to name two.
The various european powers did the same they all got a lot wrong. On the way some got a few things right. It is not a coincidence that most of the former british colonies are now some of the most advanced economies in the world outside of Europe. That does not negate many bad decisions they made, all in their own interest. Both you and I are the benficieries of that colonial past and are in a country that in less than 200 years became one of the richest and most stable democracies in the world, albeit with a dark past.
World war 2 despite Americas entrance at the last minute coould've dragged on for years. The post WW2 rebuild of western germany and japan, now two of the most stable democracies in europe and Asia and the ensuing peace, despite the rise the post war soviet union and the prevention of WW3, was largely due to America.
Where your logic is flawed starts with a premise that autocratic dictatorships are a counter to american hegemony in the world. If one is needed then The EU should be the preferred model if they can get it right.
You have ignored the elephant in the room, which is the rights of people and the value of real freedom. China has lifted itself out of absolute poverty by it acceptance pure communism doesnt work and have progressed to a more capitalistic market driven economy. This would have been impossible without America giving it MFN status together with trade with the EU. It is the west that has allowed China to be what it is today, with the hope that along with trade better living conditions and education, China would advance to a more democratic style of govt that would not threaten the peace of the region. At every turn China has sought to bully and cajole countries and even invade (Tibet) using its new found power like a petulant child. Dissadents routinely end up in gaol or disapear. It steals western technology at every oportunity. China has broken trade agreements with Australia at will because Australia is seen as weak economically and militarily, agreements it would not dare break with the USA even though Americas policy towards China is more aggressive.
Russia has its finger in conflicts in Moldova's Transnistria Always "defending" ethnic Russians in a country that is neutral and barely has an army. Then there is south oesettia, the war in Chechnya, which was disturbingly similarly prosecuted. Destroy everything and install a pro Russian puppet government. The same reason Russian troops were in Belorus to prop up another pro russian dictator to prevent the people moving towards democracy and closer to the west. The list goes on. It is all about Russia's right to control countries it thinks it has a right to control as buffers to an agression that certainly will never come from the EU. Its sham elections in annexed areas of Ukraine are seen by you as legitimate without questioning the elections themselves. Crimea a case in point a pro Russian vote of nearly 97% should be an alert to any impartial observer. With a Tartar poulation of well over 10% who are fiercely anti Russian, that should alone ring bells, or maybe the turn out level of voters that was aparently over 123%.
The whole in your argument where you appear to believe a hegemonic China (Russia has taken itself out of the equation) will counter the USA is the contiued reliance on Chinese exports to the west, currently about 20% go to the USA and EU alone and are both currently declining in dollar terms. The Chinese property market, where most ordinary Chinese have their wealth invested, is on the brink of collapse. The belt and road initiative conjured up by China to increase influence around the world, has become a debt trap for third world nations. With its ill conceived projects without due dilligence, many countries will eventually default on these Chinese loans. They've certainly proved the anti vaxxers wrong, with poor rates of vaccination with inferior vaccines. Instead they tried to use typical government autocratic control of the population. We are now seeing the tragic result of this policy on the Chinese people who are now feeling the full effects of their pandemic virus. China may not be a paper tiger yet but the dragons fire is certainly waining.

[helge]

It is not a coincidence that most of the former british colonies are now some of the most advanced economies in the world outside of Europe.

Good one

You really should "cut" up your posts abit.

They are very..white

[39TG]

We are well aware that you are blind on that eye.

A knight in shining armour doesn't need to be perfect.

[39TG]

Sorry, I still haven't worked out the quote function. Taekeovers was commenting on a sabang post about there being no knights in shining armour in the Ukraine conflict.

[helge]

The number for russians killed New Year is now 89..according to the russians

This is from the ukrainians
StratCom of the ZSU / AFU StratCom
✔
Greetings and greetings to Vata and ChMObikes, who were driven to occupied Makiivka and stuffed into the PTU-19 building. As a result of "careless handling of heating devices", neglecting security measures, smoking in an unspecified place, Santa packed about 400 corpses of pig dogs in bags. About 300 more were wounded of varying degrees of severity. It is interesting that all this happened on New Year's Eve

@AFUStratCom - the most relevant and fresh news

Stratcom Centre UA





@StratcomCentre









The Centre for Strategic Communication and Information Security under the Ministry of Culture and Information Policy of Ukraine

Classy and cultural shit, eh ?

[bsnub]

Don't the Donbas people, killed in their thousands by the Kiev government after the 2014 Maidan Coup, count as victims in your lexicon PH? Or the victims of the Odessa and Mariupol massacres?

More utter bullshit Russian propaganda. What happened in Donbass is well documented, and the killing was done by the Russians and their provided puppets. You full well know this, but choose to push your trash propaganda lies.

But they did admit that it was all a hoax.

What "hoax" you are taking in circles again. Drunk?

The number for russians killed New Year is now 89..according to the russians

You would be dumb enough to believe what the Russian say. You clowns are in full force today. Thanks for the laughs.

Classy and cultural shit, eh ?

Seems fitting to me, considering the wide scale genocide and torture being committed by the Russians on a daily basis. BTW the truth will come out soon enough, the death toll will be closer to what the Ukrainians are claiming and not the idiot lying Russian bastards.

[helge]

What "hoax" you are taking in circles again. Drunk?

Try to pay just a little attention

You would be dumb enough to believe what the Russian say.

Why did I write "according to"?

Seems fitting to me

I know

Wasn't directed at you, but it does come from 'the Ministry of Culture'

[sabang]

The killings didn't start until Putin injected his little green men into the country.

Untrue. This is what happens when you swallow propaganda unquestioningly. You get punked. And the victims of the Odessa and Mariupol massacres where not little green men from Russia, not even local military or paramilitary. They were civilian demonstrators.

Listen to this guy:-

In 2014, I am at NATO, responsible for the fight against the proliferation of small arms, and we are trying to detect Russian arms deliveries to the rebels in order to see if Moscow is involved. The information that we receive then comes practically all from the Polish intelligence services and does not “match” with the information from the OSCE: in spite of rather crude allegations, we do not observe any delivery of arms and materials Russian military.

The rebels are armed thanks to the defections of Russian-speaking Ukrainian units which cross over to the rebel side. As the Ukrainian failures progressed, the entire tank, artillery or anti-aircraft battalions swelled the ranks of the autonomists. This is what drives the Ukrainians to commit to the Minsk Accords.

But, just after signing the Minsk 1 Accords, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko launched a vast anti-terrorist operation (ATO/Антитерористична операція) against Donbass. Bis repetita placent : poorly advised by NATO officers, the Ukrainians suffered a crushing defeat at Debaltsevo which forced them to commit to the Minsk 2 Agreements…

It is essential to recall here that the Minsk 1 (September 2014) and Minsk 2 (February 2015) Agreements provided for neither the separation nor the independence of the Republics, but their autonomy within the framework of Ukraine. Those who have read the Accords (they are very, very, very few) will find that it is written in full that the status of the republics was to be negotiated between Kiev and the representatives of the republics, for an internal solution in Ukraine .

This is why since 2014, Russia has systematically demanded their application while refusing to be a party to the negotiations, because it was an internal matter for Ukraine. On the other side, the Westerners – led by France – systematically tried to replace the Minsk Accords with the “Normandy format”, which brought Russians and Ukrainians face to face. However, let us remember, there were never any Russian troops in the Donbass before February 23-24, 2022. Moreover, OSCE observers have never observed the slightest trace of Russian units operating in the Donbass. Thus, the US intelligence map published by the Washington Post on December 3, 2021 does not show Russian troops in Donbass.

In October 2015, Vasyl Hrytsak, director of the Ukrainian Security Service (SBU), confessed that only 56 Russian fighters had been observed in the Donbass. It was an even comparable to that of the Swiss going to fight in Bosnia during the weekends, in the 1990s, or the French who are going to fight in Ukraine today.

https://scheerpost.com/2022/04/09/former-nato-military-analyst-blows-the-whistle-on-wests-ukraine-invasion-narrative/

Once again, for the intellectually curious I recommend reading that article in full.

[pickel]

Untrue. This is what happens when you swallow propaganda unquestioningly. You get punked.

Sure sabang, they weren't "real" Russian troops, they were merely on "vacation".


Russians in Ukraine

Mikhail Bushuev / dc03/04/2015

Evidence is mounting that Russian soldiers are officially fighting in eastern Ukraine. Reporters and human rights activists describe their attempts to remain undercover.

It was a surprising confession. In an interview with the opposition Russian newspaper, Nowaja Gaseta, (from Monday, March 2) a wounded Russian tank operator confirmed what many have long assumed: That contracted Russian soldiers are fighting alongside the separatists in Eastern Ukraine against the Ukrainian army.

And not just a few soldiers. A day after the interview was published, US General Ben Hodges said in Berlin that the US military was working on the assumption of 12,000 Russian troops in the region.

It's not the first time such reports have surfaced. On Feb. 19, the Russian newspaper Kommersant published a surprisingly frank feature about the deployment of Russian soldiers in Eastern Ukraine. The article appeared in the online version of the paper, which belongs to oligarch Alisher Usmanov, known to be loyal to the Kremlin. Reporter Ilja Barabanov recounts how he met three Russians who had until recently been professional soldiers. In the second half of January, they went to Eastern Ukraine to fight.

"Former miners"

The men said they had fought since Jan. 20 on the front in various units of the separatist army of the "People's Republic of Donetsk." Before they left, they applied to end their army contracts and be officially discharged.

Whether or not they were actually discharged, and what their current status is, is unknown.


The three men said that their "indefinite business trip," as it was called by the Kommersant reporter, was approved by Russian officers. Later, in an interview with the Russian broadcaster, Business FM, Barabanov said he'd had the impression that the young men had gone to fight in the war "of their own free will."

In his article, the journalist described the tactics used by the professional Russian fighters in Donbass. They fight on the foremost front, but are constantly making sure that they fly under the radar of journalists and other observers.

"When it's time to do battle, only those who are really there to fight leave the base. They get the job done and come back. In the towns they've occupied, the members of the local citizen's army (term used by the separatists to describe themselves – Ed.) gather round, and the men then like to portray themselves as former miners," Barabanov writes.

It's all meant to give the impression that only local residents are fighting on the side of the rebels, and no one else. Russian President Vladimir Putin gives a similar account of the situation. In Budapest recently, he remarked about the Ukrainian army: "It's always a bad thing to lose, especially when you're losing against former miners and tractor drivers."

"They want remuneration"

In an interview with DW, Dmitri Pyslar of the Association of Russian Soldiers' Mothers said that Russian troops are fighting in Eastern Ukraine, and that they were part of the attack on Debaltseve, even after the ceasefire was agreed. But since such pains are taken to keep everything secret, it is hard to get exact information. Pyslar said it is impossible to say how many soldiers are participating in such operations.

"We tried and we failed. One goes, and another comes. It's not as if troops are sitting there (in Ukraine) over a long period of time," he said. However, he doesn't buy the message being spread in Russia that soldiers are merely "vacationing" on the front in Donbass, or fighting voluntarily without a valid contract from the Russian army.


Valentina Melnikova from the Association of Russian Soldiers' Mothers talks to lots of soldiers but has never heard any confirmation of this official version of events. "No one said anything like that to us," she told DW. Rather, soldiers she spoke to said they were promised "some type of reward" [at]– such as an honor, or a veteran's ID. Often, these promises are not kept. "They complain to us that they don't want to go back to Ukraine a second time because they didn't get what they were promised," she said.

Disappearing soldiers

In Russia, it is only legal for the state to send military personnel to work abroad if the person is a professional soldier on a contract, and if they have expressly agreed to a foreign deployment.

There are many cases of soldiers who have refused, said Melnikova. "The Russian military court opens proceedings for desertion in that case," she said.


The same thing happens to Russian soldiers who are taken prisoner in Ukraine. With her help, the New York Times documented one such case.

An orphan by the name of Petr Khokhlov signed a limited contract in 2014 with the Russian army. One day, he disappeared from his base, without saying a word to either his fiancee or his brother. Some time later, he surfaced again on a video made by Ukrainian authorities as a prisoner of war. Later, his brother learned that Petr had been exchanged for Ukrainian soldiers and had been handed to the separatists. But the Russian army representative didn't want to know about it. Officially, Khokhlov was a deserter. His trail went cold again until months later, a New York Times reporter found Khokhlov at a separatist checkpoint in Eastern Ukraine. He told the reporter that he was there voluntarily.

"Vacationing" in Donbass

The government in Moscow insists that there are "no regular Russian troops" in Ukraine. No Russian army formations have been spotted in Eastern Ukraine. At the end of August last year, though, a large group of Russian soldiers was seen in Ukraine, but Russian authorities explained that they had gotten lost and had crossed over the border without realizing where they were.

That's the Kremlin's official position. However, Russian politicians are more frequently referring to "volunteer" fighters with military backgrounds who've gone to Donbass on their own accord. "Anyone who has left the army or who is on vacation can go where they want," said Russian parliamentarian, Viktor Savarsin. "It's a fact that there are officers and soldiers who have gone there and who have participated in battles, and we are not hiding this fact."

Russians in Ukraine – DW – 03/04/2015

[bsnub]

This is what happens when you swallow propaganda unquestioningly. You get punked. And the victims of the Odessa and Mariupol massacres where not little green men from Russia, not even local military or paramilitary. They were civilian demonstrators.

There is so much laughable hypocrisy rolled up in this post. What a complete clown. More complete fantasy from your shit sources. You have been pushing these egregious lies for long enough.

[bsnub]

Sure sabang, they weren't "real" Russian troops, they were merely on "vacation".

It is all well documented with countless sources and untold hours of actual video footage. I have presented it to him countless times. As I have said before, this useful idiot couldn't care less about the truth. He has a shit fake narrative to push at all costs.

Must be an odd existence to spend your life knowingly pushing lies and falsehoods.

[pickel]

Must be an odd existence to spend your life knowingly pushing lies and falsehoods.

I actually think sabang fully believes he is telling the truth. Just like most cult members do. I wish him well on his future emancipation.

[david44]

Must be an odd existence to spend your life knowingly pushing lies and falsehoods

The gourmet Odyssey of imams rabbis and priests, I'm off to gas up the TESLA got a hot date with Kyle Minogue who's going to give me a full Australian.

Let all men and women of good will hope for a cease fire first , proper negotiations to bring freedom and justice to the Peoples of Ukraine, Russia and Belarus.

I am sure Putin nor Zelensky wish to compromise, things may look different after a bitter winter for both sides.

[harrybarracuda]

I actually think sabang fully believes he is telling the truth. Just like most cult members do. I wish him well on his future emancipation.

Sometimes I get the impression he knows he talks shite.

Then all of a sudden he convinces that he actually believes the garbage he posts.

[sabang]

I actually think sabang fully believes he is telling the truth.

More accurately I believe Col Jacques Baud is telling the truth, and considering he was a senior officer working for Nato at the time, and intimately involved, his evidence can not be just written off because it is inconvenient to the media constructed narrative.

I have said before that one of the epic tragedies- or blunders- of this war is that it happened in the first place. Read Baud and you will see just how easily it could and should have been avoided. Putin now believes that he blundered, by believing that the US/Nato were acting in good faith- and thinks he should have acted sooner.