Ukraine war mega thread

[sabang]

I think it a totally morally bankrupt scheme to destroy Ukraine in the hope of weakening Russia. The real 'nuclear option' was the economic sanctions- and they didn't work.

[pickel]

^
Putin shouldn't have invaded then and foiled their plans.

[Troy]

And basically hand the bully the win.

Do we never learn?

Does it really matter who is in charge to the average pleb?

TBH, in my life it has matteted very little...

...you need to be rich and powerful to win or lose. The rest eat dirt, or...eat dirt.

[harrybarracuda]

Does it really matter who is in charge to the average pleb?

TBH, in my life it has matteted very little...

...you need to be rich and powerful to win or lose. The rest eat dirt, or...eat dirt.

So fuck everyone that lives with a dictator's boot on their neck as long as you're OK, is that it?

[david44]

The toll in life, hatred , ruined homes, disablement, loss of livleyhoods , villages , farms, whole towns razed will need years to rebuild, how long to regain trust?

Even an agreed armistice, even if both sides are forced to compromise won't be soon IMHO.

Putin won't wish to lose any more face
Ukrainian leadership has promised to retake Donbas , possible though may neeed ethnically cleanse all teh separatists who are not killed or escape to Russia.

Crimea will be a bloodbath, the terrain, the mixed populations, resupply issue ad importance to both sides, it may mirror the Somme or Verdun grinder of WW1 or the Kursk or Stalingrad tragedy of of round 2

Too many have interest in prolonging the European Civil war round 3 or 33

USA and China are winning , Russia and Ukraine are losing daily the scum like Bout and his ilk who profit financially are delighted to make, mark up, trial and deliver materiel.

Aside from intended consequences non insurable cargos, oil hikes, there may be teh unaffordability, availibility of basic food rations of food in third world, and of course accidental release of radiation.

[Loy Toy]

^ There is only way to end this RJ.

The West need to get off the fence, send in peace keeping troops with lots of armoury, and push the Ruskies all the way back to the Kremlin.

The money saved from this event can be better used rebuilding Ukraine and its citizens lives.

[helge]

Does it really matter who is in charge to the average pleb?

TBH, in my life it has matteted very little...

...you need to be rich and powerful to win or lose. The rest eat dirt, or...eat dirt.

Good for you

Not the case around here.

This war has had major influence on a lot of people's lifes and well being.

Who caused it is another thing, but the damage is felt

Or is your comment meant for the ukranians only ?

[sabang]

The West need to get off the fence, send in peace keeping troops with lots of armoury

They would hardly be peace keeping troops then, would they? They would be at war with Russia.

[Loy Toy]

It's either that or keep on throwing billions of dollars on a bonfire.

[sabang]

Or arrive at some kind of 'imperfect peace'. The current situation is unsustainable for both Ukraine and Europe.

[Loy Toy]

Would it be not a good idea to send in Western Troops with building materials to repair the damaged infrastructure?

Surely the Ruskies would not fire missiles where western troops are working to repair a damaged water pump.

[Hugh Cow]

I noticed this one on Youtube last night and started watching/ listened....and fell asleep 5 min in I reckon

Did you watch it all ?

Probably 90%. i FFd through the parts that werent relevant. There was no evidence of corruption only speculation. Much of it could have been just incompetence, a product of Russian agents or plain old corruption in an Army that was still based on the soviet model, but has since been getting heavy training into a more NATO type military force. Sabang of course, uses it as a weapon to discredit Ukraine as he does on all his posts in a vain attempt to whitewash the Russian invasion, which only imbecile would be fooled by. His reasoning of NATO expansion Nazis, threats to Russian citizens etc are all excuses for his ambition to expand the Russian empire and maintain a major Russian influence in world politics. The following video gives a much more logical explanation. It is quite long but worth watching.

[qwerty]

Destroying infrastructure is their whole strategy though. They can't defeat the UKA on the battlefield, so destroying the Electrical Grid and waterworks is their only chance of winning this war.

[39TG]

I enjoyed that link thanks. Let's send even more arms to Ukraine and be more brutal with the sanctions. Fxck Russia.

[bsnub]

They can't defeat the UKA on the battlefield, so destroying the Electrical Grid and waterworks is their only chance of winning this war.

That is the reality of it all. In spite of what some here think, Ukraine can liberate its own territory, and it has been doing so consistently since September. The Ukrainian army gets stronger and better equipped every day, while the Russian army withers away, and it only just started to snow. The Russians have no cold weather gear and the Ukrainians have top-notch western cold weather gear, the Russians being the invader are out in the open and exposed to the elements compared to the Ukrainians who are fighting from home. Over the next two months, big things will be happening, and the Ukrainians will liberate more of their territory.

[bsnub]

BAKHMUT /0100 UTC 10 DEC/ RU losses are consistently estimated as 100 soldiers Killed in Action (KIA) per day, w/ scores more wounded daily. UKR officials describe the increasingly futile RU effort to take the city as ‘a meat grinder’.

[HermantheGerman]

Sabang! This is reality and not comedy.


No Peace on Putin’s Terms

Why Russia Must Be Pushed Out of Ukraine

By Kaja Kallas

December 8, 2022

Russia’s war of aggression against Ukraine has never been solely about Ukraine. It is also about the international rules-based order and the security architecture of Europe. In December 2021, the Kremlin gave NATO and the European Union an ultimatum: end NATO’s open-door policy and limit its right to self-defense by refraining from deploying forces and weapons in countries that joined the alliance after 1997—or risk a war.
Since then, horrors that we thought belonged to history have once again happened in Europe. Russia is waging a genocidal war in Ukraine, shocking the world with the magnitude of its war crimes. It is targeting civilians, destroying civilian infrastructure, and using mass killings, torture, and rape as weapons of war. This is not an accident but rather a feature of the Russian way of war. The Kremlin has made clear that it wants to wipe Ukraine off the map. Its false claim to be pursuing “denazification” comes close to an incitement to commit genocide—a crime whether or not genocide actually occurs. And such incitement is working. In areas that Ukrainian troops have liberated from Russian occupation, there is evidence of mass killings, torture, rape, and deportations to Russia.
Russia’s strategy is built around two weapons: pain and fear. The Kremlin aims to inflict pain on Europe by starving it of energy and to stoke fear of a nuclear war. The idea is to coerce Ukraine and its partners into a premature peace agreement that would legitimize Russia’s conquest of territory. Faced with pain, Europe can endure and even prosper. The EU and its member states have understood that they can no longer depend on Russian fossil fuels and are shifting rapidly toward other energy sources. Concerning fear, let us remember what U.S. President Franklin Roosevelt said in 1933: “The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.” If we allow nuclear blackmail to work even just this once, we will wake up in a much more dangerous world.
Now is not the time to push for premature peace. Unless Russia abandons its goal of conquering new territory in Ukraine, peace talks have little chance of achieving anything. History shows that appeasement only strengthens and encourages aggressors and that aggressors can be stopped only with force. As the prime minister of Estonia, a frontline NATO country that endured half a century of Soviet occupation, I know what peace on Russia’s terms really means. Russian peace would not mean the end of suffering but rather more atrocities. The only path to peace is to push Russia out of Ukraine.

LIVING HISTORY

In the Baltic region, we remember the face of Russian occupation painfully well. Imperialism and colonialism are the Kremlin’s twin ideologies, and have been since long before February 24, 2022, when Russia invaded Ukraine. Russia veils its hostile actions with claims to “liberate” people—people who have not asked for liberation. And the Kremlin attempts to justify its messianic zeal by reminding the world of the Soviet Union’s role in defeating Nazi Germany. What Russia always neglects to mention is that the Soviet Union, together with its then-ally Nazi Germany, started World War II.
Although the Soviet Union eventually collapsed, its imperialist ideology did not. In Estonia, our history books were rewritten after the end of Soviet rule, but the same did not happen in Russia. And although Nazi crimes have been unequivocally condemned and tried before tribunals, Communist crimes have not. Russia has never truly had to come to terms with its brutal past or bear the consequences of its actions. We had the Tokyo and Nuremberg tribunals, but there was never a Moscow tribunal. Instead, Russian President Vladimir Putin has revived Stalinism—so effectively, in fact, that in 2019, 70 percent of Russians approved of Stalin and his policies, according to a Levada Center poll. If people admire one dictator, there is no moral obstacle to submitting to another one. If people’s minds and eyes are shut to old atrocities, there are no limits to committing new ones. This helps to explain the brutal crimes of Russian soldiers in Ukraine.
U.S. President Ronald Reagan rightly referred to the Soviet Union as an “evil empire.” Yet many did not challenge Russia, which proclaimed itself the successor of this evil empire and took over its permanent seat on the UN Security Council, where it proudly embraced the Soviet Union’s playbook of evil. With its use of force in Georgia, Moldova, Syria, Ukraine, and elsewhere, Russia has shown that it took this succession literally. The impunity it has enjoyed has consequences for European peace and security; Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine is a crystal clear example of this.

Estonia shares a border and a long history with Russia. Large countries can make mistakes and survive. But small ones have a much smaller margin of error. For us, the need to halt Russian aggression in Ukraine is an existential matter. Following World War II, we Estonians lost everything to Soviet terror: we lost our territory, our freedom, and a fifth of our population. We were forgotten and abandoned behind the Iron Curtain for half a century.
We have learned a few things from this history. First, you need to fight for your freedom, whatever the odds, because not fighting is much worse. Today, Ukrainians are proving the same thing to the world. Second, if you want peace, you must prepare for war. Estonia has been spending two percent of its GDP on defense for many years. Starting next year, Estonian defense spending will be approximately three percent of GDP. We are doubling the size of our territorial defenses and increasing the lethality and range of our armed forces by acquiring new weapons, including high-mobility artillery rocket systems, long-range shore-to-ship missile systems, and midrange air defense systems. Finally, you must follow the motto “Never Alone Again.” When we restored our independence in 1991 after 50 years of occupation, we decided we would never again be without friends and allies. That is why we joined the EU and NATO. Many central and eastern European countries did the same, seeking safety from Russian aggression, and now Sweden and Finland will join the alliance as well, a direct response to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Those who blame NATO for provoking Russia through “expansion” or “escalation” are propagating the Kremlin’s imperial ideology.

A TIME FOR RESOLVE

From the start of Russia’s full-scale war of aggression in Ukraine, my government has supported Ukraine militarily, economically, and politically. Although the United States is Ukraine’s largest supporter in total dollar terms, Estonia is its largest supporter in per capita terms. Despite not being Ukraine’s direct neighbor, Estonia has also been among the most welcoming countries to Ukrainian refugees in per capita terms. We have sought to increase the cost of aggression by isolating Russia and by leading the call for accountability. As a result, Ursula von der Leyen, president of the European Commission, recently announced that the EU would help establish a specialized court to try Russia’s crimes, including the crime of aggression. Estonia has also sent investigators to Ukraine and to the International Criminal Court to ensure that war criminals will be held accountable.
Starting in December 2021, Estonia sent arms, including Javelin antitank weapons, to Ukraine that played a key role in the battle of Kyiv a few months later. Unfortunately, it took us longer to deliver the howitzer artillery systems Ukraine needed. This year, many countries have made historic U-turns and decided to send heavy weapons to Ukraine. But had we and other democratic countries sent the arms and ammunition we are sending now in January or February 2022, many lives would have been saved. We were too restrained. We should learn from this now and give Ukraine all the military aid that it needs to win this war.
The free world must not scale back its military support for Ukraine or seek to freeze the conflict to pursue peace talks. Any pause in the fighting now would only serve Russia’s military interests. It would allow Russian forces to rest and regroup, only to continue their aggression later. In the end, to paraphrase Winston Churchill, we would have both dishonor and war. After all, the international community had the chance to deter future Russian aggression in 2008, after the invasion of Georgia, and again in 2014, when Russia seized and then illegally annexed Crimea. But the free world’s responses to those outrages was weak. Principles were exchanged for cash, truth for gas. And Russia’s confidence only grew.

FREEDOM ISN’T FREE

This year has shown that the Russian army is beatable and that Ukraine is capable of winning the war. But to win, Ukraine needs our support—military, political, moral, and financial. Ukrainian victory means a Russian withdrawal from Ukraine. It means an independent, democratic, and whole Ukraine that is free to choose its foreign policy and alliances. Ukrainian victory also means full accountability for war criminals, including those responsible for the crime of aggression committed against Ukraine. And it means that the aggressor will pay for everything it destroyed. To that end, the UN General Assembly passed a landmark resolution in November stating that Russia must be held accountable for its aggression against Ukraine and recommending the creation of a registry of damages. The resolution also recognized the need for Russia to make reparations for injuries caused by its violations of international law. Only this kind of Ukrainian victory can guarantee of peace and security for countries around the world.
In addition to helping Ukraine achieve victory, we must help the country integrate into the Euro-Atlantic community. Making Ukraine a candidate for European Union membership was a momentous decision and we must support its bid as much as possible. And we must assist Ukraine on its path toward NATO membership, based on commitments made in Bucharest in 2008 and in Madrid in 2022. Ukraine’s full postwar Euro-Atlantic integration is fundamental for its future and necessary for European peace and security.
Finally, European countries must never cease strengthening their own defenses. Russia is waging a hybrid war, not just in Ukraine but in Europe and beyond. The Kremlin hopes that high energy prices and flows of refugees will weaken public support for Ukraine in Europe and leave European countries with fewer resources to send to Ukraine. Russia spreads disinformation, interferes in elections, carries out cyberattacks, and weaponizes other countries’ dependence on its natural resources. Freedom from dependence on Russia means freedom from Russian blackmail.
What is at stake in Ukraine is not just Ukraine’s existence but Europe’s security architecture, with its core principles of territorial integrity, sovereignty, and prohibition of the use of force. We cannot allow the fundamental principles of the UN Charter and the European security architecture to be trampled underfoot. For that reason, Ukraine must win, the Russian aggressor must fail, and war criminals must face justice. No peace that is reached before these goals are achieved can ensure anyone’s security.

KAJA KALLAS is Prime Minister of Estonia. This article draws from a speech she delivered in November at the Paasikivi Society in Helsinki.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/russi...e-putins-terms

[bsnub]

A very balanced take on Crimea. If you are going to comment on it, you better watch it to the end.

[OhOh]

It's either that or keep on throwing billions of dollars on a bonfire.

The printers can be turned off. Help is now at hand,
Provided via POTUS's new Nuclear weapon usage doctrine "review.":

Pentagon’s Strategy Won’t Rule Out Nuclear Use Against Non-Nuclear Threats

• Defense strategy shuns limits on use once embraced by Biden
• US to face both China and Russia as major nuclear powers

By
Anthony Capaccio

27 October 2022 at 22:36 GMT+7Updated on28 October 2022 at 00:46 GMT+7

"The Defense Department said in the document released Thursday that “by the 2030s the United States will, for the first time in its history face two major nuclear powers as strategic competitors and potential adversaries.”

In response, the US will “maintain a very high bar for nuclear employment” without ruling out using the weapons in retaliation to a non-nuclear strategic threat to the homeland, US forces abroad or allies.

The nuclear report that’s part of the broader strategy said the Biden administration reviewed its nuclear policy and concluded that “No First Use” and “Sole Purpose” policies “would result in an unacceptable level of risk in light of the range of non-nuclear capabilities being developed and fielded by competitors that could inflict strategic-level damage” to the US and allies."

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

The nuclear clock moves closer to zero.

so destroying the Electrical Grid and waterworks is their only chance of winning this war.

One presume Ukraine /UK militaries missile attacks on the Crimea road and rail bridge/water supply, or the Zaporozhye NPP, were not supposed to assist their small chance of victory?

I suspect Ukraine military leaders, having the ability to enable their soldiers, weapons, supplies ... to be repositioned to be provided with, ammo, food, via the still somewhat available electric powered trains is of some assistance in their ability to continue waging a war for their, unelected, by its civilians, governments, near and far.

Don't you?

[Takeovers]

You know perfectly well that Zelensky was elected by a large majority in a free and fair election.

In contrast Yanukowytch was elected on a platform to lead Ukraine into the EU. When he turned traitor and sold out Ukraine to Russia, he was driven out by the people. The most democratic process imaginable.

[helge]

You know perfectly well that Zelensky was elected by a large majority in a free and fair election.

He got around 30 % in the first round and runner up 15-16 %

Second round 73 % against an unpopular opponent

Only half of the population voted/ had the opportunity.

If you call that a strong mandate, I'd disagree
PACE website
A report here about the election:

In contrast Yanukowytch was elected on a platform to lead Ukraine into the EU. When he turned traitor and sold out Ukraine to Russia, he was driven out by the people.

Could we say "some of the people" ?

The most democratic process imaginable.

Yeah well

Hard to debate your imagination

[Takeovers]

He got around 30 % in the first round and runner up 15-16 %

Second round 73 % against an unpopular opponent

Only half of the population voted/

That's how democratic votes do happen. High number of abstention is quite normal. Sounds, like you are not aware of the democratic process.

Could we say "some of the people" ?

The people. Nobody besides the riot police stood up for Yanukowytch. In the end the military stood with the people.

If Zelensky tried to appease Putin he would probably end ousted like Yanukowytch.

[helge]

That's how democratic votes do happen. High number of abstention is quite normal.

Not in a healthy democrazy

Sounds, like you are not aware of the democratic process.

You have just proven that it isn't your strong side

The people. Nobody besides the riot police stood up for Yanukowytch. In the end the military stood with the people.

Where have you been since the Maidan thing ?

[Norton]

A very balanced take on Crimea. If you are going to comment on it, you better watch it to the end.

I did. A balanced commentary which concludes the Ukraine could retake the Crimea if a whole lot of things go their way. Worth the watch.

[Takeovers]

Not in a healthy democrazy

You are arguing there are no or very few healthy democracies. Unfortunately low voter turnout is the norm, not the exception

Where have you been since the Maidan thing ?

Observing how a robust democracy is building in Ukraine. Slowly but steadily erasing russian style corruption. Building a strong military, able to take on the russian onslaught.