Ukraine war mega thread

[helge]

Bullshit! YOU are spreading lies, propaganda, fake news like a NAZI.

Getting desperat ?

Who is currently behaving like a Nazi: Russia or Ukraine?

Russia is not on the table here

Come on; just say it:

"Yes; Ukraine have/had a problem with Nazis".

You can even add that Russia is worse if you want to make it easier on yourself.


But you can't

You need the whitewash.

And nothing in this world is white or black

[bsnub]

Russia’s international disinformation campaign seemed to flounder in the early days of the invasion, as narratives about Ukrainian bravery dominated the internet. But in Russia, the country’s propaganda machine was busy churning out a deluge of misinformation aimed at its own citizens.

The narrative disseminated online through state-run and unofficial channels has helped create an alternate reality where the invasion is justified and Ukrainians are to blame for violence. To control the narrative at home, Russia also shut down access to several websites and threatened the news media with long prison sentences for criticizing the war. There’s some evidence that the effort has mollified at least some Russians.

Here is what the war looks like to Russians, based on a review of state news articles, channels on the popular chat app Telegram, and input from several disinformation watchdogs who are monitoring Russia’s propaganda machine.

After Russian shellings killed Ukrainian civilians, Russia blamed ‘neo-Nazis.’

Some of the most disturbing images from the war have come from Mariupol, a port city in the southeastern coast. Shelling battered the region, killing several civilians who were trying to flee the area, during what was supposed to be a cease-fire.

But Russians got a different explanation online: Ukrainians had fired on Russian forces during the cease-fire, and neo-Nazis were “hiding behind civilians as a human shield,” according to the Russian state news website Tass.

Neo-Nazis have been a recurring character in Russian propaganda campaigns for years, used to falsely justify military action against Ukraine in what Russian officials have called “denazification.”

Those claims have only continued during the conflict. To explain away attacks on other Ukrainian apartment buildings, the same article by Tass claimed that neo-Nazis had placed “heavy
weapons in apartment buildings, while some residents are forcibly kept in their homes,” providing no evidence.

Russian social media accounts have used a mix of fake and unconfirmed photos showing Ukrainian soldiers holding Nazi flags or photos of Hitler. An analysis by the Center for Information Resilience, a nonprofit focused on identifying disinformation, showed that the number of tweets connecting Ukrainians to Nazis soared after the invasion began.

“Propaganda works when it coincides with your existing assumptions,” said Pierre Vaux, a senior investigator at the Center for Information Resilience. “The stuff that chimes into the Nazi stuff is really effective.”

After a nuclear facility caught fire, Russians claimed they were protecting it.

After Russia attacked an area near the nuclear complex in Zaporizhzhia, leading to a fire, President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine called it “nuclear terrorism.”

But according to a Kremlin statement reported in Tass, the military seized the facility to prevent Ukrainians and neo-Nazis from “organizing provocations fraught with catastrophic consequences.” Even though Ukrainians heavily fortified the region against an attack, Russian officials claimed they already had control of the compound before Ukrainians opened fire. They added that Ukrainians set fire to an adjacent building before fleeing, providing no evidence. Western experts said controlling the Zaporizhzhia complex would allow Russia to trigger blackouts or shut down the entire power grid.

The image of Russia as a world protector surfaced again after the country’s officials claimed they discovered evidence that Ukraine was working on a nuclear bomb. According to Russian officials, plans for the bomb were uncovered at the abandoned Chernobyl nuclear power plant.

“It doesn’t even make sense, because if you’re going to develop a nuclear weapon, you don’t do your secret development in a nuclear power plant,” Mr. Vaux said. “But that kind of thing is just being beamed out on Russian state TV.”

After Russia shelled a residential neighborhood, Russians claimed Ukrainians did it.

An attack on Kharkiv, a northeast Ukraine city bordering Russia, provided additional evidence that Russia had indiscriminately bombed residential neighborhoods and killed civilians, according to the Atlantic Council, an American research group. The International Criminal Court opened an investigation into war crimes after the assault.

In one attack that included heavy shelling, 34 civilians were killed and 285 were injured, according to the Ukrainian State Emergency Service.

But Russians listening to state media or browsing channels on Telegram heard another story: The missiles, those sources claimed, came from Ukrainian territory.

On a Telegram channel for the Russian news site Readovka, one post described how “Ukrainian missiles” had “arrived from the northwest” — an area controlled by the Ukrainian military.

Russia’s defense department said that it never attacked cities, instead targeting “military infrastructure” with “high-precision weapons,” according to an article in the state-owned news agency RIA Novosti.

After attacks bloodied civilians, Russians called injured Ukrainians crisis actors.

A woman who survived a blast at her apartment building became the focus of disinformation efforts after her bloodied and bandaged photograph spread widely through newspapers and Western media.

The woman was a resident of an apartment complex in Chuhuiv, near Kharkiv. The photojournalist Alex Lourie captured her portrait after the attack, and the image was soon featured on the front pages of newspapers around the world.

But Russian social media channels falsely described her as a member of Ukraine’s psychological operations unit, according to an analysis by the Ukrainian fact-checking website StopFake.

A post by “War on Fakes,” a pro-Russian website and Telegram channel that appeared at the start of the invasion, suggested that the blood could be grape juice and that the woman could be “part of the territorial defense.” As evidence, the post included a shot of another woman bearing some resemblance. That image came from a New York Times photograph, which was taken in Kyiv — a seven-hour drive west of Chuhuiv.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/10/t...a-ukraine.html

[David48atTD]

Retired. Gen. David Petraeus reacts after new satellite images show the long 40-mile-long Russian convoy outside of Kyiv dispersing into fields and wooded areas.

[bsnub]

^

Excellent find David!

I have a couple of informative videos I would like to share with the more reasoned posters of this thread. I was already well aware of some Russian shortcomings, but these videos really spell it out...

[Troy]

That was almost eighty years ago FFS. The Russian's battle doctrine dates back to that era. It is primitive.

Artillery dates back to the Napoleon era and was the primary cause of destruction in WW1. Montgomery was heavily influenced by it following that war and used it extensively in WW2. It's still the major weapon today, either from the field or air. Do you have a suitable alternative?

[sabang]

Right there David. Maybe I was still editing when you checked. Commonsense article anyway, at a time there is not a lot of it about

[bsnub]

Artillery dates back to the Napoleon era and was the primary cause of destruction in WW1. Montgomery was heavily influenced by it following that war and used it extensively in WW2. It's still the major weapon today, either from the field or air.

Well aware but thanks anyway for the history lesson. I served in the Army and am well aware that it is a major weapon today, but you are missing my point...

Do you have a suitable alternative?

They seem to have a problem with directing the artillery fire instead of just using indiscriminate artillery fire. Indiscriminate artillery fire is not something done by NATO forces for the most part. That is what I have an issue with. The Russians have a completely lacking combined arms capability, it would seem.

You would benefit from watching the video that David posted of Gen. Petraeus he mentions it a few times in the video.

[David48atTD]

Just watched the first of snubb's YouTubes above, "Why Russia can't take the skies over Ukraine" ... excellent.

Lot's of intellectual discussion and analysis, focusing more on the development of the Armed Forces equipment and how, in many ways, they aren't designed to defend Russia, but more designed to sell to other countries.

The Russian Military could be described, as is so fond in Texas as "All hat and no cattle"..


Also explains a uniquely Russian doctrine of maskirovka. ... A little masquerade

Russian military deception, sometimes known as maskirovka, is a military doctrine developed from the start of the twentieth century. The doctrine covers a broad range of measures for military deception, from camouflage to denial and deception. WIKI

[David48atTD]

I also looked into one of the vehicles described in that video, the Ural 9 ground combat drone

[bsnub]

Just watched the first of snubb's YouTubes above, "Why Russia can't take the skies over Ukraine" ... excellent.

Well, by your post, you took a lot of it in.

Make sure to watch the one on logistics as well, it is quite telling. The reality is that Russian logistics has always been shit outside their rail network inside of Russia.

[David48atTD]

Just some info on the Stinger Missile used currently in Ukraine.

Lot's of background, but relevant to Ukraine from the 6.40min mark

[Troy]

They seem to have a problem with directing the artillery fire instead of just using indiscriminate artillery fire. Indiscriminate artillery fire is not something done by NATO forces for the most part. That is what I have an issue with. The Russians have a completely lacking combined arms capability, it would seem.

You would benefit from watching the video that David posted of Gen. Petraeus he mentions it a few times in the video.

The Russians expected very little resistance. They were under the impression that the Ukrainian army would quickly surrender and the citizens rejoice at their presence. That's the problem with dictatorship, media censorship, and propaganda. The invasion didn't go according to the initial planning and men on the ground have resorted to basics and suppression fire in an attempt to reduce casualties.

The Russians are well aware of dispersal and finding cover but they are also aware of the soft ground and risk of having to abandon armour. They have been caught between a rock and a hard place and have ended up being forced to change their decision and will probably end up regretting that too.

Frankly, the Russians have made bad decisions after bad right from the start. They should have been more forthright in their language about invading if their fears were not discussed openly, they should have invaded in November when sanctions would hit Europe much harder and the terrain more suitable, they should have concentrated their invasion on Kiev and not open a third front in the South. The list of errors goes on...

Russia needs to be given something to allow them to back away without losing face otherwise this is going to be a long and drawn out war with horrendous suffering on both sides.

[bsnub]

The Russians expected very little resistance. They were under the impression that the Ukrainian army would quickly surrender and the citizens rejoice at their presence. That's the problem with dictatorship, media censorship, and propaganda. The invasion didn't go according to the initial planning and men on the ground have resorted to basics and suppression fire in an attempt to reduce casualties.

It is clear that they are desperate at this point and that is why I fear that more innocent civilians will die because of it.

The Russians are well aware of dispersal and finding cover but they are also aware of the soft ground and risk of having to abandon armour. They have been caught between a rock and a hard place and have ended up being forced to change their decision and will probably end up regretting that too.

Did you watch the video analysis by Gen. Petraeus? The Russian command may be well aware, but NCO's and below seem to be lost and have little influence to change things on the ground. I participated in many field operations when I was in the US army, stationed in Germany more specifically Reforger which was frankly a combined arms tour de force. What happened in the video that Gen. Petraeus reviewed would never under any circumstance happen to any western army. Period. That is just a complete breakdown and I have seen it time and time again in videos on Reddit, YT and Twitter.

Frankly, the Russians have made bad decisions after bad right from the start. They should have been more forthright in their language about invading if their fears were not discussed openly, they should have invaded in November when sanctions would hit Europe much harder and the terrain more suitable, they should have concentrated their invasion on Kiev and not open a third front in the South. The list of errors goes on...

It is not cold enough there in November, as the ground is not frozen. They waited until what is typically the coldest time of the year in Ukraine and Russia, expecting the ground to be frozen over, however due to global warming it has been unseasonably warm, so you can count that to bad luck for Russia. I also disagree with you on the southern front. That is the one place they can resupply via air and ground and the supply lanes are very short unlike the front in Kyiv (once again you need to watch the video with the General).

Russia needs to be given something to allow them to back away without losing face otherwise this is going to be a long and drawn out war with horrendous suffering on both sides.

Frankly, that is the best outcome for all, but I think it is unlikely. Putin is delusional and ill, he is trying to reform the Soviet empire and that is just not going to happen. I am happy that the US has approved another $14 billion in aid to Ukraine. The best we can do at this point is to make sure that Ukraine has plenty of ammunition, anti tank weapons and stinger missiles.

Слава Україні
Slava Ukraini!

[misskit]

Riots kick off among Russian military, army leadership of invader uses tactics of 'firing squads'

A captured Russian military spoke about the use of the tactics of "execution squads" to destroy deserters, the SBU reports.


Putin does not believe in his own army and resorts to Stalinist repression.


"However, this does not save him from the riots that have already begun to arise among the Russian military. Another captured occupier tells about this during interrogation at the SBU. They say that the army leadership has resumed the practice of 'execution squads' - echelons that follow the main forces of the Russian Federation and kill those who want to escape," the SBU said in a message posted on the Telegram channel on Saturday.


The SBU informs that, according to the words of the captured occupier, as they move deep into Ukraine, the military of the Russian Federation begin to realize that they are far from having a peacekeeping mission.


"But they made very clear that we will not return back, because echelons are coming after us, killing deserters who are trying to return home," the prisoner says.


"Now, having become an accomplice in crimes, the invader regrets that they did not have the courage to act like the marines of the Russian Federation: '... near Odesa, 600 marines rebelled and did not leave the ship, because they understood what was happening.' The army of the invaders is demoralized and suppressed. So the victory of Ukraine is not far off!" the SBU said.

SBU: Riots kick off among Russian military, army leadership of invader uses tactics of '''firing squads'''

[bsnub]

This falls inline with the fact that Putin is ill and desperate to try to reestablish the Soviet empire. He is going to fail. Things are not looking good for him.

[Backspin]

China , India , Pakistan , Turkey , Brazil , Mexico , S.Africa ++

https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/...422054406?s=19

A majority of human beings in the world do not condemn Russia's special military operation in Ukraine.

What is causing the most perplexity in Washington and London is the approach of the Commonwealth trio and the largest two democracies in Latin America — Brazil and Mexico.

Both have declined to impose sanctions on Russia and avoided condemning the invasion.

[misskit]

US officials eye Russian reliance on unsophisticated but brutal heavy weaponry in Ukraine

(CNN)Russia has relied far more heavily on less sophisticated, so-called "dumb" bombs than it has on its arsenal of precision-guided munitions in its punishing war on Ukraine. It's a dynamic that US officials are watching closely for clues about the state of Russia's military — as these indiscriminate weapons kill scores of civilians.


Russia has used a combination of missiles, artillery and rocket launchers to pummel major Ukrainian cities over the past two weeks, Lt. Gen. Scott Berrier, the head of the Defense Intelligence Agency, told the Senate Intelligence Committee on Thursday. On Friday, Russia launched a barrage of missile attacks on a wide range of targets across central and western Ukraine, causing substantial damage and using what Russia's defense ministry said were "high-precision long-range weapons."


But the number of "precision-guided munitions that are being dropped from aircraft ... is small," Berrier said.


US and Western officials say they don't know why Russia hasn't used more of these more sophisticated weapons, which its Su-34 fighter-bomber fleet regularly employed, along with other unguided bombs in Syria. It's an approach some US military and intelligence officials say could signal another surprising weakness in Russia's military campaign — or simply a terrifying willingness to employ brutal tactics that lead to countless civilian deaths in a war that many officials think could last weeks or even months.

"It's hard to say at this point whether that's driven by expense, if that's driven by a lack of inventory or if that's just driven by a desire to be more brutal in the use of force," a senior NATO official said on Thursday, calling it a "big question."

Precision-guided munitions, or PGMs, are more expensive, time-consuming and complex to produce than unguided munitions and there has long been speculation that Russia's stockpile is relatively limited. It is possible, some outside analysts say, that Russia is simply holding its PGMs in reserve for later in the conflict — or as an emergency precaution in case Russia finds itself in conflict with NATO. One source familiar with the intelligence said that the Russia burned through the proportion of its PGM arsenal that it allocated for the operation in the early days of the conflict, when Moscow enforced stricter rules of engagement that eschewed widespread civilian casualties.

But whatever the reason, officials say the impact is now being borne by Ukrainian hospitals, schools and apartment buildings destroyed by Russia's indiscriminate bombing campaign — even as a senior defense official cautioned on Wednesday that the US cannot prove whether guided or unguided munitions were used against a given target after the fact.


The strategy may also create direct costs for Russia, according to one senior military official familiar with the latest intelligence. This person said that the use of some of Russia's "dumb" bombs requires its pilots to fly lower, making them more vulnerable to Ukraine's surprisingly effective anti-air defenses. Over the past several days, officials have noted a sharp decrease in overall Russian air activity over Ukraine.

MORE US officials eye Russian reliance on unsophisticated but brutal heavy weaponry in Ukraine - CNNPolitics

[cyrille]

^^In other news - Bhutan and The Saychelles in ‘not opposing the nazis’ shocker.

[Backspin]

Is there any yahoos from TD going to Ukraine to fight ?

Chernihiv, hotel Ukraine, from which they made the headquarters of the "foreign legion" destroyed in Airstrikes

Telegram: Contact @intelslava

[misskit]

^ We were hoping you would volunteer to fight for your idol, Putin!

[Joe 90]

So if Putin starts using WMD , does that give Nato the green light for regime change as was the case in Iraq?

Scary thought, but all this talk of chemical weapons etc is only going to go one way...to the Kremlin.

[NamPikToot]

So if Putin starts using WMD , does that give Nato the green light for regime change

No, as the previous engagements weren't with nuclear powers. NATO is however going to have to think long and hard on its position regards this. Putin is deliberately pushing NATO into confrontation to justify his position and the worry is just how far will he go vis CBRN warfare. He's a nutter so anyone's guess.

[sabang]

Putin is deliberately pushing NATO into confrontation

But not Zelensky, obviously- I mean the fact that he is blathering away on TikTok asking Nato for more guns, missiles, planes etc and to declare a 'no fly zone' (tantamount to a declaration of war) is just false flag stuff, right?


^ Just to put that figure in perspective, that is around 1/10th of the amount of people killed in Donetsk and Luhansk breakaway republics by Ukrainian forces and militia since they declared independence post Maidan- mostly by shelling. How accurate that figure may be in this TikTok war, cannot say.

[misskit]

^ Sure, 13,000 people killed by Ukrainian forces over 7 years. In 15 days 550 civilians killed by Russian forces in Ukraine including Donetsk and Luhansk, also mostly by shelling.

Russians are gaining fast on slaughtering civilians.

[sabang]

Oh, if the war continues for long you can be sure that figure will soon be dwarved. I'm hoping for rationality and a peace deal. The Ukrainian people have been cynically used as pawns as far as I'm concerned.