Ukraine war mega thread

[sabang]

It was a long time ago I was RAN mike tbh- probably closer to the mark to think of me as a bankerwanker.

[bsnub]

But using the word cowardice is stupid, its not cowardice

Deliberately bombing civilians is cowardly, no matter how you slice it.

[baldrick]

I'll leave you to fill in the obvious blanks.

was it manufacturing the evil drugs like wot pootin says ? so pootin targeted a meth lab that was masquerading as a maternity hospital ?

[bsnub]

The left are great with freedom of speech until it doesn't agree with their notion of what is right.

I do not want their posts deleted, FFS. Just placed in the doghouse where they will still be readable by those that chose to read them. The problem is that most of it is just pure shit that clogs up legitimate discourse. I mean, look at the fake news horseshit skiddy has posted up on the previous page.

In regard to the left not favoring free speech, that is the invention of right wing imbeciles. The truth is here in America the right is stifling freedoms wherever it can. They are currently undertaking a massive effort to suppress voting rights and to make it incredibly difficult for minorities to vote, they are trying to rewrite history and in more right wing areas of the south they have banned books from schools.

That is the right in the US, and they are fucking demons who happen to hide behind the bible.

Most people who do not speak out against nazism , like Bsnubs et al, are.

You really can be a moron at times. I hate Nazis and all racists.

[bsnub]

Just plain common sense is quite sufficient here.

Too bad, you have not one scintilla of it. There is photographic evidence that there were patients in that hospital, and it is posted on this forum in the other thread. Russia has a pattern of targeting hospitals, something they did in Syria. You really are a pathetic, grovelling apologist who is spewing complete horseshit as usual.

[sabang]

In regard to the left not favoring free speech, that is the invention of right wing imbeciles.

You sure could've fooled me, serial whinger.

[bsnub]

You sure could've fooled me, serial whinger.

WTF do you think you were doing for months when you continued on and on like a broken record about how Russia would never invade? Massive, epic multi-month whinge fest.

Only to be proven wrong. Now you are trying to marginalize the fact that Russia is deliberately bombing hospitals and other civilian targets.

[sabang]

Just issue another Directive to the Mods, General Portlandia. Yawwwwn. And you accuse Me of being a broken record?

[Joe 90]

was it manufacturing the evil drugs like wot pootin says ? so pootin targeted a meth lab that was masquerading as a maternity hospital ?

Heisenberg won't be happy.

[harrybarracuda]

^^^ You can certainly copy it there Ms Kitty, I guess it belongs! Never heard of this Cawthorn- pretty small beer probably, but I might do a quick check on what the RW loonies have to say about things. Zelensky worship is about as dumb as Putin worship BTW- he's just another thoroughly corrupt and compromised Ukrainian politician. Does a nice Tik Tok though.

Ah look, it's the witless "both sides" shit.

No, Putin is the corrupt arsehole.

[harrybarracuda]

I understand the Geneva Convention. I didn't say that i agreed with what Putin and his forces are doing, quite the opposite. But using the word cowardice is stupid, its not cowardice, it has a myriad other terms like atrocity to the right minded and in fact even efficiency if you want to get technical about it.

'War crime' is a good one.

[sabang]

^^ But of course Zelensky the Hero isn't? Not according to the facts disclosed in the Pandora papers. But i guess he is absolved now.

[harrybarracuda]

Just plain common sense is quite sufficient here. It doesn't make Vlad 'good,' or 'right' or anything like that, it has no bearing on the matter- but I'm afraid I have an old fashioned addiction to the truth, and plain common sense.

if that was the case, you wouldn't post bullshit chinky and putin propaganda all the time. Stop lying.

[david44]

Former Russian foreign minister: “It is mind-boggling what Putin is doing in Ukraine”

WASHINGTON DC – Andrei Kozyrev does not think the Russian president Vladimir Putin is irrational. “[He is] not reasonable,” the former Russian foreign minister was quick to clarify. “It is mind-boggli
By Emily Tamkin
Updated Mar. 10, 2022 01:06 PM

---

Photo by Marcus Yam/Los Angeles Times via Getty Images.
WASHINGTON DC – Andrei Kozyrev does not think the Russian president Vladimir Putin is irrational.
“[He is] not reasonable,” the former Russian foreign minister was quick to clarify. “It is mind-boggling for me, too, what he’s doing in Ukraine, his reference to nuclear war. It’s outlandish.
“It does not mean it’s irrational.”
This distinction – between immoral and out of his mind – is important, Kozyrev insisted. Irrational people “take the knife and try to kill people”. A rational person, on the other hand: “he brandishes the knife, he tries to scare people with the knife, and attacks only if those people are fearful and unable to stand for themselves, and they are disarmed.”
We were not actually speaking about knife fighting, though Kozyrev did return to the theme later on. (He and Putin, he told me, are of the same generation, though Putin grew up in what was then known as Leningrad and is now St Petersburg, whereas Kozyrev grew up in Moscow.) And in a street fight back then, “the rule of the game, the rule of the fight, was: you strike first and as strong as you can.”

The world’s response to Russia – to Putin – has been “too little, too late”. The past two weeks have shown a “much better” response. But he knows there are still some who want to take an incremental approach. You put on sanctions, you see how Russia responds, you increase or decrease accordingly.
“I think it’s a very thoughtful approach, but not to Russians,” he said. “The logic of incremental punishment – it’s probably good for other places, but wrong for Putin’s background.”


Koyzrev was foreign minister from 1990 to 1996, mostly under Putin’s predecessor as president, Boris Yeltsin, when it seemed to some as though Russia might become a fully-fledged democracy, and to others that it would be swallowed by crime and chaos. He put forth to me a similar argument as to why Nato should enact a no-fly zone over Ukraine. The objection to a no-fly zone is that Nato would have to shoot down Russian planes, becoming a party to the conflict and potentially triggering nuclear war. I myself have made this argument.
Kozyrev wasn’t buying it. He believes that if Moscow sees that the West is hesitant to use all the tools at its disposal, then it will go further. “That means that there are no borders,” he said. “They could next jump on, say, the Baltic states, and, again, count on experience that the West could act, but will not, because [Russia] will threaten nuclear weapons. And that means, without ever resorting to nuclear weapons, they’re winning the wars with nuclear weapons.”

If the United States and its partners are worried about playing by the book, well, Kozyrev would have them look at Article 51 of the charter of the United Nations, which states, “nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security.” In Kozyrev’s reading, this is a strong enough basis in law to allow military action on Ukraine’s behalf.

Some of us – again, including myself – do not think it is worth finding out whether Russia is serious about using nuclear weapons in the event of a Nato no-fly zone. But Kozyrev is sure that Putin and company will not. “They will not resort to nuclear weapons unless they think they can get away with everything,” he insisted.
If Russia does manage to conquer Ukraine, he does not believe it will stop there. Besting Ukraine is a military operation. But if Russia wins, and if it is not stopped: “after that, to take, say, Estonia? I mean, it’s just a few hours’ operation.”

And if Russia does pull back? The 70-year-old statesman and author of Firebird: The Elusive Case of Russian Democracy does not believe that sanctions should be lifted right away. The people of the country should first understand what has happened. That is difficult now, because information is so heavily policed in Russia. In the days since Russia invaded Ukraine, independent media has been forced offline and off the air.

The precondition for lifting sanctions? “Free press,” he said. “Nothing humiliating. There is nothing outlandish in this request, this condition. But that’s what’s needed. The Russian people should be given the right to know what is the truth.”
I had, before the end of our phone interview, a question for Kozyrev about his former colleague, Sergei Lavrov. Russia’s current foreign minister, who has staunchly defended Russia’s war-that-it-does-not-call-a-war, was once Kozyrev’s deputy. Lavrov was a career diplomat. Didn’t he know better, I asked? Didn’t he know that all of this was wrong, and was he just going along, or had he convinced himself that Putin’s war was right?
“I’m not a psychologist,” Kozyrev said. “What I see is that people sometimes degrade morally. And again, it’s step by step.”

On the first step, you sell your soul. But the Faustian scene rarely unfolds immediately before you, he said. The devil doesn’t come in with a contract “dripping in blood”. “It takes some time before you start to actually disregard human dignity.”
And that, he added, is why the response should be as full as it can. “The next step,” he warned, “will cost even more.”

[David48atTD]

^ Here is the link I believe ... Former Russian foreign minister: "It is mind-boggling what Putin is doing in Ukraine" - New Statesman

[harrybarracuda]

And to think we used to mock baldy orange cunto for being a mental case.

[Troy]

Deliberately bombing civilians is cowardly, no matter how you slice it.

Well, it beat Japan into submission during WW2...

Selective memory?

[bsnub]

Well, it beat Japan into submission during WW2...

Selective memory?

That was almost eighty years ago FFS. The Russian's battle doctrine dates back to that era. It is primitive.

[HermantheGerman]

Mikey, it was not primarily and certainly not solely being used as a hospital at that time- there are several local accounts of what happened. You can trolley patients into corridors if you like, and miraculously try to keep Doctors, nurse and orderlies away from windows and exterior walls, you can even maybe try to clear the parking lot, ramp and Inpatients & outpatients department, the waiting room- but you still would not get away with a mere 17 injured. Not sorry if the truth hurts- use your common sense.

According to Sabang logic:

Russia is bombing a civilian cities because there are Nazis everywhere.
Russia will be using chemical weapons (like Syria, London) because those Nazis did not give up and do as the Soi Dog Czar said.

Common sense ain't it

[HermantheGerman]

Most people who do not speak out against nazism , like Bsnubs et al, are.

Bullshit! YOU are spreading lies, propaganda, fake news like a NAZI.

Who is currently behaving like a Nazi: Russia or Ukraine?





Keep in mind that the Soi Dog Czar did definitely not invent the Blitz Krieg
But his Reich will be crumbling and never be the same again.

[Troy]

Just a simple question about that though Troy. A busy maternity hospital has the whole facade blown away, and.... only 17 injured, and 3 dead it is reported. It clearly was not primarily being used as a hospital at that time.

I really couldn't say, not enough information. I was simply reporting that the RFO have been accused of fake news and the disinformation removed from twitter.

The area has been under heavy bombardment for several days and I have known pregnant women that have had miscarriages and premature births under less traumatic circumstances. I therefore doubt the hospital was full or busy at the time. Ukraine would have put the death and injury toll much higher if they were pushing the propaganda button.

RFO are claiming they haven't attacked civilian structures but the video and photo evidence suggests otherwise.

[HermantheGerman]

And to think we used to mock baldy orange cunto for being a mental case.

....and we are all bankrupt and posting from a prison cell



Did you know that:

Russia is making money for insulting the Soi Dog Czar. Anyone who insults the Soi Dog Czar faces heavy fines in Russia - a special law designed to protect the "honor and dignity" of the dictator has ensured this for the past year.

Sounds like Nazi Germany to me

[David48atTD]

Who knows what target this would work against?

[sabang]

Britain’s economic war against Vladimir Putin is a mess – and it may be pointless


Simon Jenkins

Ordinary people are likely to feel the pain, and none of the oligarchs directly targeted can influence Russia’s tyrant anyway

Boris Johnson is getting serious about Ukraine. He may not admit many Ukrainian refugees lest they endanger the Conservatives’ claim to being the party of low migration. But he is slamming sanctions on seven more London oligarchs, including Roman Abramovich, Igor Sechin and Oleg Deripaska. The high-profile trio, with four other oligarchs, are eerily accused of “enabling the killing of civilians, destruction of hospitals and illegal occupation of sovereign allies”. Abramovich’s Chelsea football club is to be “frozen” and banned from selling tickets. That should teach Chelsea fans a lesson about who to support, and is meant to make Vladimir Putin shake in his shoes.

War is simple. You fight. You kill. You win or you lose. Economic war, on the other hand, is a mess of signals, boycotts, ill-defined targets and indiscriminate victims. Because it is bloodless, it is somehow detached from whatever issue is at hand. Almost invariably the real sufferers are the poor and impotent. As for Abramovich, what is he supposed to do? The likelihood of his going to Moscow and persuading his chum that the invasion of Ukraine was a terrible mistake must be zero. This is foreign policy as pure theatre.

Ukraine has summoned the west to collective action. The current surge in sanctions has generated a hysteria of Russia-hating gestures by western countries. This has clearly been aimed at relieving their justified reluctance to join or widen the Ukrainian war. The unity of the damnation has been impressive, even if the effectiveness has not. For all the shared condemnation, two weeks of truly colossal financial and commercial disruption have yet to deliver the slightest shift in Putin’s strategy; indeed, sanctions may have even hardened his lethal resolve.


Quite apart from Britain’s shocking aversion to refugees, its barrage of measures seem devoid of direction. Decades of profitable investment in Russia’s economy are somehow to end overnight. The chief effect could well be to repatriate billions of pounds of wealth – as in the case of BP and Shell – to the very oligarchs such actions are supposed to punish. Russia is now proposing to seize and nationalise closed western factories and other western activities, free of charge.

As Russian oil and gas will soon soar in value, Johnson’s decision to enforce sanctions may end up penalising British citizens with even higher energy bills. Who suffers and who gains by forecourt petrol hitting £2 a litre? The Saudis, the Iranians, the Venezuelans and eventually the Russians will laugh all the way to the bank. By banning Russian fertiliser exports, Johnson will punish British farmers. By banning wheat exports he will punish their chief consumers. Meanwhile, Johnson wants to resume British gas fracking and permit the proliferation of onshore wind turbines. Everyone cheers the “tough” gesture. No one ponders its usefulness.


Measures understandable in the heat of battle come to seem pointless and heartless far from the front. Nothing is gained by requiring Russian artists, performers and sports figures on pain of expulsion to denounce their homeland – risking the safety of their families in Russia. There are calls to strip private schools of charitable status if they take Russian pupils. The Welsh may not listen to the Russian Tchaikovsky’s 1812 Overture, appropriately to be replaced by Elgar’s Enigma Variations.

In the ultimate obscenity, HM Revenue and Customs this week told British people not to send relief supplies to Ukraine as the trucks were being held at Calais for the correct Brexit permits in order to enter the EU. We should just give money instead. Why did Johnson not tell us in 2016 that leaving the single market would obstruct relief sent to victims of war?

Little of the news coming out of Russia is reliable. Still, Russia’s instinctive nationalism appears to be rallying to its leader’s cause, as tends to happen in war. Polls that have been registering Putin’s ailing popularity have shown it surging to near 70%. Of course this is aided by a savagely censored media and mendacious publicity machine. But it is no good blaming this for the ineffectiveness of sanctions. Such nationalism is predictable in war and was what sanctions had to overcome to have any impact. Would it now really help the Ukrainian cause if all Apple and Android servers stopped working, as some have demanded?

This appalling war is unlike most in Europe’s history in that it appears to be the will literally of one man rather than an entire country. None of Putin’s top brass are thought to have known of or supported it. Sheer terror now keeps them loyal. Yet no expert is predicting an early coup or assassination – let alone a new boyars’ plot of oligarchs sweeping into the Kremlin in gold-plated helicopters. Somehow or other, mediation is going to have to disentangle this horror on terms vaguely acceptable to Putin.

Then it will be in no one’s interest for the punitive ostracism of Russia to continue a moment longer, on the spurious grounds that ordinary Russians somehow “allowed” Putin to invade Ukraine. Punishing losers is a counter-productive outcome of war. It’s worth remembering the economic devastation and humiliation of Germany after 1918, or Russia after 1989. Ukraine will have to rebuild. So too will Russia.

This is not kindness, just common sense.

• Simon Jenkins is a Guardian columnist

Britain’s economic war against Vladimir Putin is a mess – and it may be pointless | Simon Jenkins | The Guardian

[David48atTD]

^ Link?