Ukraine war mega thread

[Shutree]

Would it impress you if I posted some more propaganda from your mass murdering Empire building Neocon masters ?

Reading this thread gives an insight into how wars get started.

[Hugh Cow]

Reading this thread gives an insight into how wars get started.

Yes. Theres Betty whom I assumed was a soap dodger but maybe not. Snubby of course makes no secret to whom he supports. Helge appears to be guided by his anti sepponess to some degree and one could say after the iraq and vietnam disasters he does have a point. Troy Imo is a little bit more measured in his responses and is my pick for the most reasoned on the subject and thank fook it distracts him from Brexit. I think my position is fairly clear and although I am a lot less gung ho in following the U.S. after iraq, but I still dont buy in to the argument there was no alternative to invading Ukraine and killing innocent civilians.

[Troy]

It's on. The next several days should be decisive. Heavy contact is underway in Zaporizhia. Russian telegram in full on panic mode.

The Russians didn't panic, they carried out their defensive doctrine by the textbook and making Ukraine work hard in this offensive.

From today's ISW report:

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky acknowledged that the progress of Ukrainian counteroffensives has been slower than expected, likely due to effective Russian defenses

Snubby has underestimated the Russian army, believing it to be only conscripts and convicts but it is working well as a defensive unit.

[helge]

Snubby has underestimated the Russian army, believing it to be only conscripts and convicts but it is working well as a defensive unit.

It's a gas station, remember ?

You might be interested in this video, where a guy, who runs the same gas station talk gets educated.

Not propaganda



Lazer Pig video

[helge]

^
I do not have any knowledge about tanks.

I do however know propaganda, when I see it

[helge]

Helge appears to be guided by his anti sepponess to some degree

You have a point there, but only because the seppos have such power and can inflight such economic stress on smaller countries, that there is one choice: Obey !

I have almost regretted my tirade towards Betty, cause I'm sure that he is a man with a good heart.

Good hearts and decent upbringing isn't an advantage in understanding the degree of cynicism the "upper echelons" operate with.

We can't cope with the cynicism and can't believe that our fellow man can act like that.

And these arseholes operate worldwide incl Russia, China and the UK.

All scripted and paid for by us taxpayers.


If you have a few years in the bank, you'll remember the invasion of Kampuchea by Vietnam.

It did relieve most of Kampuchea from Pol Pot, who doesn't need any introduction even for Betty.

Who kept Pol Pot, the mass slaughterer in power in small parts of the country ?

China and the .."west".

Who kept the UN seat for Pol Pot ?

Yes..

Who imposed heavy sanctions on Vietnam for the best invasion ever ?

Yes, the same cynic arseholes that Betty thinks might manipulate a bit, but......


Who is about to throw up ?

Me

Shame on all of us !

one could say after the iraq and vietnam disasters he does have a point.

But Betty has very conveniently forgotten and preaches moral, cause the west ain't that bad.

THEY ARE ALL THE SAME ARSEHOLES, BETTY

No heroes in this Western

Reading this thread gives an insight into how wars get started.

Not that bad, is it ?

[helge]

I still dont buy in to the argument there was no alternative to invading Ukraine and killing innocent civilians.

There were alternatives.

Innocent civilians ?

Everybody seems to forget the many thousands of young men who are getting slaughtered for....nothing.

[Joe 90]

I'm nominations General Snubbles for the Purple Heart for his service to the West in this thread.

[helge]

Would it impress you if I posted some more propaganda from your mass murdering Empire building Neocon masters ?

Fire away. This should be good.

Eh ?

That's your occupation, isn't it ?

I take it that you find a russian lie and russian propaganda to be worsee than ukranian ditto

You really are a nasty twat. There is no comparison at all, not even close.

This is too easy

[pickel]

^
I hate to break it to you helga, but the US is not fighting in this war, the Ukrainians are. The Ukrainians are defending themselves from an illegal invasion by a dictator than can't seem to cope with the fact that a sovereign nation wants to break the shackles and move closer to the West and a democratic society. Given the choice of US help or not, they wisely choose the former.

[helge]

And, Betty.

I think you misunderstood my intention with the posting of a handful of russian propaganda videos (which pretty much lined up with ISW).

They are more reliable than BZnubZ.

Hardly a surprise

Peace

[helge]

I hate to break it to you helga, but the US is not fighting in this war, the Ukrainians are.

Thanks, Pickel

Now I get it

[Troy]

^ There's a lot of it about on the internet and you don't have to look too hard.

Amazing how so many have suddenly become experts.

I'm not an expert on tanks either, although I did do work on the Challenger, years ago, as part of my degree.

I also spent a while doing some tank history, from creation to cold war, mainly because I lived and worked in Lincoln at the time where the tank originated. I still think that Ukraine is trying to fight the same as the Russians, in WW1 style with a head-on approach. Lots of artillery and infantry to break the opposition line of defence and then send in the cavalry, or should I say the modern equivalent, tanks. Perhaps they should read the writings of Sir Basil Liddell Hart who formulated new tactics for the tank after WW1. Unfortunately the tactics were ignored by the British and used by the Germans during WW2. Yes, a little simplistic, it's far more complicated than that but I still believe the simple words ..."Slower is Quicker" and "Longer is Shorter" when it comes to many things including war.

[OhOh]

Meeting with permanent members of the Ru Security Council


Vladimir Putin held an operational meeting with the permanent members of the Security Council via videoconference.


"The meeting was attended by Chairman of the Federation Council Valentina Matvienko, Speaker of the State Duma Vyacheslav Volodin, Deputy Chairman of the Security Council Dmitry Medvedev, Chief of Staff Anton Vaino, Secretary of the Security Council Nikolai Patrushev, Minister of Foreign Affairs Sergei Lavrov, Minister of Defense Sergei Shoigu, Director of the Federal Security Service Alexander Bortnikov, Director of the Foreign Intelligence Service Sergei Naryshkin and Special Representative of the President for Environmental Protection, Ecology and Transport Sergei Ivanov.

Vladimir Putin: Colleagues, good afternoon!

Today we will discuss issues related to measures to improve the efficiency of work with our main partners - both in the CSTO and in the Eurasian Economic Community . A lot has happened lately. One way or another, almost all of us took part in meetings with our colleagues and allies and outlined certain things related to the development of our relations.

Today we'll talk about all this.

But first of all, I would like to start with the issues on the current agenda - the most important ones today, with the situation in the zone of the special military operation.

Sergei Kuzhugetovich [Shoigu], how is the situation in the war zone?

Sergei Shoigu: Thank you, Vladimir Vladimirovich.

Our current situation is as follows. After conducting active hostilities for almost 16 days, having suffered significant losses, the enemy reduced its activity. At the moment, he is engaged in the regrouping and re-staffing of troops. Gathers from disparate parts of the battalions those forces that could continue to lead the offensive. It's in one direction.

In other directions, of course, the enemy still has the strength to conduct further offensive operations, despite the large number of losses both in equipment and in personnel.

In addition, in some areas we are seeing attempts to evacuate destroyed equipment and wrecked equipment. Not everywhere it succeeds, but nevertheless such attempts are being made.

Of course, preparations are underway for further offensive actions. From our side as well.

Vladimir Putin: Okay, I understand. Thank you.

Nikolai Platonovich, I asked you to maintain relations with colleagues from various departments so that we can have an objective picture of what is happening, how it looks from the various departments involved in the special military operation. It is clear that the main responsibility lies with the Ministry of Defense, but nevertheless, information is accumulating in other departments. You are doing this work, I know.

What is the summary data so far?

Nikolay Patrushev: Thank you, Vladimir Vladimirovich.

Indeed, in accordance with your instruction, we are counting the equipment that the enemy has lost, and we receive information from the Ministry of Defense, from the Border Guard Service of the FSB, from the Department of Military Counterintelligence of the FSB, from the Russian Guard. Then we compare it, bring it to a common denominator. In particular, of course, since June 4, we have been looking more closely at this information, since the Armed Forces of Ukraine announced that they had begun to attack.

To date, we have the following data. From June 4 to June 21, they destroyed: tanks - 246 units, including western ones - 13, armored combat vehicles and armored vehicles - 595 units, including infantry fighting vehicles - 152 units, of which 59 were western, armored combat vehicles - 443 units, guns field artillery and mortars - 279 units, of which 48 units are Western. Multiple launch rocket systems - 42 units, anti-aircraft missile systems - two units, tactical fighters - ten units, helicopters - four units, unmanned aerial vehicles - 264 units, automotive equipment - 424 units.

We continue to work in accordance with your instructions.

Thank you.

Vladimir Putin: And in terms of personnel?

Nikolai Patrushev: As for the personnel, I think that more scattered information is being received here, but I can say that it is more than 13,000.

Vladimir Putin: This is generalized data, right?

Nikolai Patrushev: Generalized data, yes. Already all the information that came from the departments: more than 13 thousand.

Vladimir Putin: I understand.

Sergey Kuzhugetovich, we know that they are going to supply the enemy with additional Western equipment. How does the Department of Defense assess threats in this regard?

Sergei Shoigu: Regarding the supplied and planned supply of military equipment. In total, if we talk about tanks, it is planned to deliver 250 tanks in 2023, including about 120 Leopards, 31 Abrams tanks and the remnants that they collect around the world, these are 95 T-72 tanks. Here are the delivery plans.

Combat armored vehicles. 983 units are planned for delivery this year, most of them are in the third and fourth quarters - 822 cars, of which 740 are Western-made cars.

That is, here we also see that in fact everything that was developed by the Soviet Union at one time and in the countries of the former socialist camp, this resource is practically exhausted, as well as the resource that Ukraine had.

Artillery systems caliber 155 millimeters. They are expected to be delivered in 2023 273 units. This is more than two times less than it was delivered before.

Taking into account the losses that Nikolai Platonovich has just announced, and what happened before, we now understand that the quantity that will be delivered in 2023 and has already been delivered will not significantly affect the course of hostilities. And if we add to this that the bulk of armored vehicles, armored combat vehicles are the past, and somewhere the generation before last, having, on the one hand, weak degrees of protection and not the efficiency that modern technology shows, we don’t see any or threats. Moreover, Vladimir Vladimirovich, we are actively forming reserves both in terms of equipment and personnel.

On your instructions, I can report that as of today, this morning, if we talk about the formation of reserves under the contract, we have recruited 114,000 people - this is under a direct contract, plus 52,000 are volunteers. On the volunteers, I know that you have drawn our attention to getting people ready.

Vladimir Vladimirovich, first of all, I want to note their highest motivation: they, as volunteers, naturally, are eager to fight, but we cannot do this. Firstly, there is no such urgent need for this, and secondly, of course, they must undergo serious training, which, in fact, they are doing today at eight training grounds.

They are trained by 645 instructors. All of them, of course, with combat experience. Plus, graduates of our higher educational institutions, our academies, who also work with volunteers, have now been added to this. Today, for the most part, they can already be called not volunteers, but these are fully trained combat units.

In addition, Vladimir Vladimirovich, we are forming reserves as part of the army corps, the army. Plus, five regiments in the 1st and 20th tank armies. Everything is going according to plan there: in fact, by the end of June we will complete the formation of a reserve army and in the near future we will complete the formation of an army corps. Five regiments are also formed by more than 60 percent. In this case, I'm talking about personnel and technology.

For presentation, Vladimir Vladimirovich, - I have listed the equipment that is supplied to the enemy, including Western countries - we have delivered 3786 units of equipment for the formation of these two armies and the army corps. This is only for the formation of an army, an army corps and five subgroups in the 1st and 20th armies.

On average, Vladimir Vladimirovich, to make a complete impression: 1,336 people enter the contract per day - on average, every day. In fact, we receive every essence of the regiment. Plus, Vladimir Vladimirovich, in terms of technology: on average, we receive 112 units every day. This applies to both modernized equipment and new equipment, so here we have gained serious momentum and we do not see any risks of disrupting the formation of the reserve.

Vladimir Putin: Good.

Sergei Kuzhugetovich, and of the equipment that has been destroyed since June 4, and which Nikolai Platonovich has just described as generalized data, in percentage terms, how much Western equipment? Approximately.

Sergei Shoigu: Destroyed?

Vladimir Putin: Yes, from the destroyed one.

Sergei Shoigu: Mr Putin, out of 246 tanks, 13 are Western vehicles. At the same time, Vladimir Vladimirovich, it should be noted that, if we talk about the equipment that was delivered, for tanks in particular: 81 Western-made tanks were delivered. Of the 81 Western tanks, 13 were destroyed.

Of the armored fighting vehicles, 59 Western models have been destroyed. To date, tentatively, a total of Western-made Bradley armored combat vehicles has been delivered - 109. Of the 109 Bradley vehicles, 18 have been destroyed. And in general, Western models - 59 Western-made armored combat vehicles [destroyed].

As far as field artillery and guns are concerned, here, of course, I just immediately consider that out of the 48 destroyed, about 30 percent are Western.

Vladimir Putin: I understand.

I understand that this is preliminary data, because everything on the battlefield cannot be seen to the end, but in general it is clear.

????: And you confirm these data on the losses of enemy personnel?

Sergei Shoigu: Yes, we confirm. Moreover, these data are mainly data taken from intercepts: reports from the commanders of Ukrainian units, who reported on sanitary and irretrievable losses."

Meeting with permanent members of the Security Council • President of Russia

[OhOh]

Some views of Ukraine Failings

"As the Ukrainian offensive begins to culminate well short of its intended objectives, Ukrainian channels have begun to analyze their failures and it provides an interesting insight into the operational difficulties the AFU now finds itself in.

ZeRada has this to say:

1. Complete absence of surprise effect. The APU went where they were expected. Why the hell did the speakers of the OP announce an offensive there in six months? The question is open.

2. Mistakes in the general planning of the operation. Kharkov relaxed. The command expected that the battle of the Sea of ​​Azov would be the same easy walk. There are no tactical surprises at all‼️

3. Underestimation of the engineer-sapper training of the enemy. Conspiracy theorists even wrote that the Russian Armed Forces carried out mining covertly. This, of course, is nonsense. It’s just that even theoretically SUCH total mining was not calculated, although the Tsar trench was visible even from space.

4. The RF Armed Forces were able to produce and accumulate a sufficient amount of guided weapons, both ground and air based. The equipment of the Armed Forces of Ukraine that passed the first minefields was met by Kornets and their counterparts.

5. Echeloned EW front cover by the defenders. Combined-arms systems are also operating, and, which was completely unexpected, trench EW of the RF Armed Forces, which were not often seen before. The Armed Forces of Ukraine faced a loss of communication during the offensive, and FPV drones were ineffective.

6. Massive use of guided bombs. Even at the stage of preparing the offensive, the Aerospace Forces knocked out warehouses and accumulations of equipment with UABs and KABs, preventing them from concentrating normally for a full-fledged strike. Residents of Berdyansk and Primorsk say that after the start of the Sushka offensive, they began to fly even more often. The Aerospace Forces do not spare for the key targets of planning bombs.

7. Alligators. Ka-52 are back in the game. Since the beginning of the great war, they have been written off by drone aficionados. But during the offensive, they were able to fully cover their troops, as if in a shooting range, knocking out the armored vehicles of the Armed Forces of Ukraine with impunity. Arestovich's stories about 6 downed Alligats are not confirmed by anything at all, except for his and Malyar's statements.

8. Deficiency of air defense. A couple of months before the start of the offensive, the command of the Russian Federation declared the main priority of the radar and air defense systems of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. During this time, they managed to knock out a large number of complexes and their components. Therefore, when the offensive began, the infantry of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, on the contrary, was left without cover. During the Battle of the Sea of ​​Azov, not a single helicopter was shot down.

9. The human factor. One and a half years of war are beginning to affect the quality of personnel. Mariupol and Bakhmut, Lisichansk and Severodonetsk, Marinka and Vuhledar - the Armed Forces of Ukraine have lost a huge number of military personnel, volunteers and ideological fighters. Tankers and attack aircraft, even trained in the West, but consisting of mobilized citizens simply do not want to die. They sometimes break and abandon equipment (as the world press wrote about), refuse to follow orders.

Any subsequent offensive actions of the Armed Forces of Ukraine MUST take into account the above factors. Otherwise, this will continue to be not an offensive, but the destruction of our own troops."

t.me/intelslava/49077

[bsnub]

They are more reliable than BZnubZ.

Only to a propagandized moron like yourself. How could this war have been prevented again?

I have almost regretted my tirade towards Betty

Par the course for you vatnik.

It's a gas station, remember ?

Thanks for pointing out the obvious.

[Joe 90]

[Iceman123]

It’s getting time to meet around the negotiating table to end this conflict.

Bsnub’s assertions that Russia is a paper tiger, is like most of his drivel, patently wrong.

[bsnub]

It’s getting time to meet around the negotiating table to end this conflict.

Oh look who shows up again after months long absence to push the propaganda narrative that Ukraine should knuckle under to ruzzia and surrender territory. Fuck off vatnik.

Bsnub’s assertions that Russia is a paper tiger, is like most of his drivel, patently wrong.

The ruzzians have been backpedaling for months. They have lost over 200,000 KIA in this war, you utter buffoon. The counteroffensive has barely started. Some of the laughable shit you posted here over a year ago before you fucked off...

Says the man who claims Ukraine is winning

Yep I am on the side of reality, and unfortunately Ukraine are losing.

Now when are you going to accept the reality that Ukraine are not winning.

the Ukraine has virtually no chance against a superior force in numbers and equipment.

Who’s winning now on planet Bsnub?

here on earth Ukraine are losing for sure.

I will repeat to try to get it to sink in “Russia is winning”

[Iceman123]

^
Good to see I managed to occupy your time and get you doing some research.

I think the Muscovite’s will be sleeping more soundly than their Kiev counterparts, but hey logic is a real bastard eh.

Let me reiterate Ukraine is not winning!

Jump up and down stamp your feet, tell us that the Russians have ran out of men weapons etc but the facts speak for themselves.

You are a sad little fuckwit.

[bsnub]

This will be a fun summer. I look forward to your further humiliation. You are a clown and nothing more.

[Bettyboo]

^
I hate to break it to you helga, but the US is not fighting in this war, the Ukrainians are. The Ukrainians are defending themselves from an illegal invasion by a dictator than can't seem to cope with the fact that a sovereign nation wants to break the shackles and move closer to the West and a democratic society. Given the choice of US help or not, they wisely choose the former.

This is the point.

Given the choice, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, the Czech Republic, the list goes on... have moved away from the former USSR and prospered. Idiots like Chomsky who only rant about anti-America, are forgetting the basic simple facts: 1) people in countries like Ukraine and Estonia are trying to improve their lives by moving away from the former USSR; 2) Putin is insane and trying to rebuild the USSR by invading ex-soviet nations and brutally forcing them into submission against their will. Yes, Britain and other European nations have had long colonial periods, some of which persists, and that isn't right either. But, European colonization and imperialism doesn't somehow make Putin's actions ok.

I work at an international university where more than 25% of the students are Russian, Kazakh, Uzbek, Belarusian and several other USSR-esque nations. These students are lovely intelligent young people who are looking to build a life of opportunity for themselves. &, they see that opportunity outside of Russia, in places like Korea, Europe and the US. They see their country being destroyed by an insane dictator. These people, as well as Ukrainians, are the point. Not all propaganda is the same. I say many negative things about Tony Blair, invasions of Iraq, etc, but that neither gets me put in jail or forced onto the frontline as cannon fodder. Some posters on this thread have rather lost the plot, imho. Npbody dislikes the neo-liberal lies and uber-globalization for profit more than I, but that in no way is equal to or justifies Putin's actions in Ukraine or wars against other ex-soviet nations.

&, it does seem that the Russian defenses are currently more effective than the Ukranian army would like. Maybe this pleases some posters; maybe they'd like Putin to be successful. No, I didn't want Blair to invade Iraq, I personally think he should be put on trial and imprisoned (I believe their is enough evidence), but instead of the "reasoning" that we do similar, so it's ok for Putin, I speak to the students who are delighted to be out of Russia, they tell me about the crimes committed inside their country by Putin's henchmen, the corruption, violence and intimidation that I'm fortunate not to have to live with. To say that all propaganda is the same (and there's no doubt that a wide range of propaganda is used by all sides in wars and generally) is a decontextualized binary statement that is not supported by people's real life experiences or history - people, in this instance the Ukrainians are foregrounded, are the point. Decontextualized ideology, such as Chomsky rants about, can be a dangerous appeasement to violent oppression and mass murder of innocent civilians, as in this invasion of Ukraine.

&, no Ukraine shouldn't be going to peace talks to ease some of posters sensibilities, they have the right to defend their country and reclaim all of their land.

[Bettyboo]

Some interesting Russian internal politics (both short videos which cover different, but associated, comments):

[Bettyboo]

Russian authorities launch criminal probe into Wagner Group head | Russia-Ukraine war News | Al Jazeera

[Joe 90]

Wakey wakey General Snubbles!!!

Time to re-engage the enemy...