Thread: Brexit - It's Still On!

Originally Posted by Switch

Says the forum fraud who still denies having his ass handed to him on IT, finance, and politics. You are just a joke. lol

Even when the EU empire fails, you will still be claiming it as a personal success for you. Mental Pygmy

you are a frigging loon

Clean Brexit is not impossible it just needs the political will. But the political will isn't there as the civil service and most mps want to keep us as entwined as they possibly can to all the EU institutions in the mistaken belief that we will rejoin.

^^Really?

Which part is wrong?

Originally Posted by buriramboy

Clean Brexit is not impossible it just needs the political will. But the political will isn't there as the civil service and most mps want to keep us as entwined as they possibly can to all the EU institutions in the mistaken belief that we will rejoin.

but it's impossible, because the state is a big operation machine that is outside view of the general public and they don't get to see or bother to know how it all works, as long as supermarkets are fully filled, and their favorite TV shows is on

what do you think deep state or permanent state is? it's an organization that takes care of all the small details that your average chavs doesn't know about or care about because it's too boring and too technical to understand

Brexit is a big leak in the permanent state, like the falling of a big central bank, that have fundamental consequences. It's the beginning of the destruction of your social and operational infrastructure. That's what it is.

Chass is an old Pensioner, his mental state doesn't let him project that far, that's why he supports Hard Brexit, without knowing really that means. Like your average clueless uneducated Chav, he thinks the system will take care of itself by magic tricks, like receiving money every month by simply asking for it at your local council

Originally Posted by Dragonfly

but it's impossible, because the state is a big operation machine that is outside view of the general public and they don't get to see or bother to know how it all works, as long as supermarkets are fully filled, and their favorite TV shows is on

what do you think deep state or permanent state is? it's an organization that takes care of all the small details that your average chavs doesn't know about or care about because it's too boring and too technical to understand

Brexit is a big leak in the permanent state, like the falling of a big central bank, that have fundamental consequences. It's the beginning of the destruction of your social and operational infrastructure. That's what it is.

Chass is an old Pensioner, his mental state doesn't let him project that far, that's why he supports Hard Brexit, without knowing really that means. Like your average clueless uneducated Chav, he thinks the system will take care of itself by magic tricks, like receiving money every month by simply asking for it at your local council

Not all of us are as frightened of reality, or as dumb as you are.
What conspiracy will you dream up next? You’re not even a grown up. Leave the real world for adults to deal with. You live in your box of theoretical conspiracy’s.

To recap: according to experts, MPs and more experts the current deal is so outrageous that it doesn't have a hope in hell of being passed, not even by MPs; according to the same and more, the sky falls with a no deal. Good start, and we can't have one or the other.

That leaves revoking or extending A50, or Ref2, all of which lead to political, economic and legal complications. Nothing is good, not even those in the loop can more than guess which is the least bad, and worse, nobody trusts them anyway.

Selmayr and Weyand – the well-connected German officials, behind the scenes
They come from similar backgrounds. Both grew up near the French border (Selmayr, aged 48, in Karlsruhe and Weyand, aged 54 in Saarbruecken). Both are connected with the German CDU. Weyand joined it as a sixth former, according to a proud feature from her local TV station Saarlaendische Rundfunk. Selmayr, meanwhile, edited his own Wikipedia page to remove references to his CDU membership, replacing it with membership of the Flemish Christian Democrats, according to Brussels news service Politico.
Both are close to Peter Altmaier, who has long been seen as Angela Merkel’s closest ally in Berlin. To declare an interest, I have also known Altmaier for 12 years, but I have never met either Selmayr or Weyand.
The same Saarlaendische Rundfunk piece says that Weyand got to know Altmaier when she was a sixth former. The Die Welt piece says that Selmayr counts Altmaier also as a friend since that time. Altmaier is also from the Saarland, which hugs Germany’s western border with France. As it happens, Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer, Merkel’s successor as CDU Party Leader, also comes from the Saarland. In my experience of German politics, hailing from the Saarland tends to make one a Francophile, although Altmaier is also a great enthusiast for the UK, too.
Both are known to work incredibly hard. Selmayr is known in German as a ‘Strippenzieher’, best translated as a scheming powerbroker. He has earned multiple nicknames like the “Monster” and the “Beast of Berlaymont” (the name of the EU headquarters). When Selmayr chairs the Commission Cabinet – according to the FT – other chefs call their Monday meeting “the weekly humiliation”
Selmayr and Weyand’s approach to the Brexit talks: punish “the heretics”
Anyway, enough on the background, which is important in understanding what has happened since the referendum in 2016. Weyand was appointed soon after Barnier, on 1st October 2016. Selmayr has been in situ in one guise or another since 2014.
It has been clear from the beginning that the mission of senior Brussels officials has been to punish Britain for Brexit. Selmayr and Weyand appear to be no exception to this.
As early as May 2017, the Daily Telegraph reported that British officials believed that Mr Selmayr, an “arch-federalist”, was determined to poison the negotiations in a bid to “punish” the UK for leaving the European Union.
In September 2017, Selmayr was reported to have blasted Brexit as “stupid”. “He is a theologian who regards the British as heretics,” was how a former British ambassador to Brussels described him to The Times.
It is Selmayr who stands accused of having leaked the details of two dinners between Theresa May and Jean-Claude Juncker to the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. Although he denies this. The accountsclaimed May “begged for help” and described May as appearing “anxious”, “tormented”, “despondent and discouraged,” and cruelly described how our Prime Minister appeared to be having sleepless nights.
Juncker – or more likely Selmayr – vetoed greater transparency in the Brexit talks and specifically recommendations from the EU’s official watchdog that Weyand’s role be more scrutinised and her meetings published.

Originally Posted by Switch

Selmayr and Weyand – the well-connected German officials, behind the scenes
They come from similar backgrounds. Both grew up near the French border (Selmayr, aged 48, in Karlsruhe and Weyand, aged 54 in Saarbruecken). ............ As it happens, Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer, Merkel’s successor as CDU Party Leader, also comes from the Saarland. In my experience of German politics, hailing from the Saarland tends to make one a Francophile, although Altmaier is also a great enthusiast for the UK, too.

With such an emphasis on geographical background, I'm surprised the author didn't mention he himself is an immigrant and wasn't even born in the EU.

I have a suggestion that has not been discussed yet. How about having a hard Brexit. Then immediately start negotiations on reentry and put the result to a referendum? That is if the EU countries can bring themselves to take GB serious and actually negotiate.

Originally Posted by Switch

Not all of us are as frightened of reality, or as dumb as you are.
What conspiracy will you dream up next? You’re not even a grown up. Leave the real world for adults to deal with. You live in your box of theoretical conspiracy’s.

"afraid of reality" says the old Pensioner stucks in his little English village and demonizing the big EU as everything evil

Since the Withdrawal Agreement was finalised in November, Selmayr and Weyand have left most of the public words to their bosses Juncker and Barnier, but behind the scenes various reports have emerged of what these two officials think. And these officials are the ones who know the detail best. Both have been clear that the Agreement is overwhelmingly favourable to the European Union.
The deal wasn’t even yet signed when Weyand briefed EU ambassadors on Friday 9th November, as reported in The Times: “They must align their rules but the EU will retain all the controls. They apply the same rules. UK wants a lot more from future relationship, so EU retains its leverage.” And that “we should be in the best negotiation position for the future relationship. This requires the customs union as the basis of the future relationship.” And also that Britain “would have to swallow a link between access to products and fisheries in future agreements.”
Dominic Raab resigned over the agreement, and stated that Selmayr had been boasting that “losing Northern Ireland” was the “price of Brexit”. “You would hear swirling around in Brussels – particularly the people around Selmayr, Martin Selmayr in the Commission, and some others – that losing Northern Ireland was the price the UK would pay for Brexit,” said Mr Raab. “This was reported to me through the diplomatic channel”. “It is one thing to defend your interests robustly, but there is another thing in the spirit of so-called European unity to be trying to carve up a major European nation.”
Selmayr told a meeting of EU sherpas on Friday 23rd November that “the power is with us”.
Unusually for such a senior official, Selmayr himself gave an interview to the obscure German regional newspaper the Passauer Neue Presse on 7th December, claiming that the agreement now proved that Brexit “doesn’t work”. “The Europeans are at one on the question of Brexit. All have noticed, that this exit from the EU, which the populists have extolled as a great success, doesn’t work. The other 27 states are united: they have negotiated hard and realised their objectives.”
And to put the ball back into London’s court, an unnamed senior EU official told The Times: “To use a Christmas theme, we want all parties and factions in the British parliament to feel the bleak midwinter.”
These are hardly ringing endorsements of a treaty between friendly, democratic and free-market nations. The agreement, in the word of the EU’s most senior officials, “doesn’t work,” it leaves “the power with us [the EU]”, and that the EU has “the best negotiating position for the future relationship” and that losing part of one’s country is “the price of Brexit”.
So what does it mean for the future?
Some might claim that these are mere officials, and that we should judge the Withdrawal Agreement on its merits, not on how others choose to paint it. There are three reasons why we should be further concerned about what this means for the future trade relationship, yet to be negotiated.
First, the same people are likely to be in charge from the EU side. These are people totally committed to seeing that Britain is harmed. These are also the people most on top of the detail. Selmayr even reportedly wants to run the trade negotiations, even though that would ordinarily be a matter for DG Trade in Brussels.
Selmayr’s views on trade deals in general is also very unhelpful for the UK. For example, there is strong evidence that he wouldn’t allow data to be included in any future EU-UK trade deal. He is reported to have insisted that deals “should include things like cars, cheese and beef”.
Second, Selmayr and Weyand have manipulated the negotiations to first insist that the Future Relationship needed to be separate to the Withdrawal Agreement (which we should never have agreed to – but that’s another story), but nonetheless insert the things that mattered most to them into the Withdrawal Agreement – like Geographic Indicators and the Backstop itself, which are actually all about the future relationship, and not about the divorce. This doesn’t augur well for the future talks. Nor does Weyand’s briefing to EU ambassadors that the agreement “requires the customs union as the basis of the future relationship”.
Third, and most importantly, these officials will be growing in power in the coming months and years. Juncker will be gone in June, after the European elections, as will all the other commissioners, including probably the capable and experienced Trade Commissioner, Cecilia Malmström. Barnier’s future after June is also uncertain. The European Parliament will be new and could well have a very different make up in numbers and in faces to that presently.
The continuity in Brussels will be provided by senior officials like Selmayr and Weyand. If they succeed in getting the Withdrawal Agreement over the line, who will be able to stop them?

Originally Posted by Takeovers

I have a suggestion that has not been discussed yet. How about having a hard Brexit. Then immediately start negotiations on reentry and put the result to a referendum? That is if the EU countries can bring themselves to take GB serious and actually negotiate.

Because all previous opt outs would be lost and have to be renegotiated. Revoking A50 leaves all treaties and opt outs in place.

^^ In short, when all else fails, blame the Germans.

Originally Posted by Troy

^^ In short, when all else fails, blame the Germans.

If the cap fits, and it certainly does in this case, then the evidence is there for you to ignore.

You might recall that I am fond of Germany, and many of the people I met in more than 10 years living there. I am pro Germany and I admire Merkel for her thoughtful management of the country as chancellor. You can hardly call me a hater of Germans.

The two people in question are arch federalists, so their demeanor is not so surprising. It’s also impossible for a tool such as Juncker to dress himself, let alone lead the commission, without someone spoon feeding him.

Anyway, its the management of non elected officials that is to blame for the present impasse in negotiation, and May must take her share of the blame for allowing it.

wait, I get it now

EU == The New Third Reich

Stephen Barclay 'hasn't spoken to EU about delaying Brexit'
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46795406

The Brexit Secretary has cast doubt on claims UK and EU officials are talking about delaying Brexit if MPs reject Theresa May's withdrawal agreement.

Stephen Barclay said the UK remained committed to leaving on 29 March.

According to the Telegraph UK officials had been "putting out feelers" about extending Article 50, the mechanism taking the UK out of the EU.

Mr Barclay said he had not spoken to the EU about that and any delay would cause "some very practical issues".

His remarks came the day after Digital Minister Margot James suggesting Article 50 might have to be extended in order to stop a no-deal Brexit if Mrs May's deal is rejected by Parliament.

Brexit: Ministers speak out against no-deal exit
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46795406

Work and Pensions Secretary, Amber Rudd, has said history will take "a dim view" of ministers if the UK leaves the EU without an agreement.

Ms Rudd told a cabinet meeting earlier that the UK would be less safe if there was a no-deal Brexit.

Business Secretary Greg Clark has also told MPs a no-deal exit in March "should not be contemplated".

MPs are set to vote soon on a measure which may restrict the government's tax powers in the event of a no-deal exit.

Reality Check: Can Parliament stop a no-deal Brexit?
Bid to limit tax powers if no-deal Brexit

The government has refused to rule out leaving the EU without an agreement and is continuing to make contingency plans.

Transport Secretary Chris Grayling told the Commons that ministers would be accused of "irresponsibility" if they weren't planning for all eventualities.

In other Brexit developments:

Brexit Secretary Stephen Barclay has cast doubt on claims UK and EU officials are talking about delaying Brexit if MPs reject Theresa May's withdrawal agreement.
German and Irish foreign ministers meet to try to find a "fix" for the Irish border backstop
A new government website advising consumers and businesses what to do in a no deal situation goes live on Tuesday, backed by a radio advertising campaign
MPs write to the head of the Met Police saying they have "serious concerns" about public order and security outside Parliament, after Tory MP Anna Soubry was verbally abused outside Parliament by pro-Brexit supporters

Mrs May appears to be facing a growing backlash against a possible no-deal Brexit - if her agreement is voted down next week.

It is understood during Tuesday's Cabinet that Ms Rudd, a former home secretary who was a leading figure in the 2016 Remain campaign, told MPs history would take a dim view of the government if it accepted no deal and it would leave the UK a less safe country.

"We have to face the world as we find it, not as we wish it to be, and we have to deal with the facts as we find them," she is reported to have said.

Is the EU about to rescue Theresa May?
Kuenssberg: What has changed?

While she wanted Brexit to go ahead, she said it was important that Parliament tried to reach as much of a consensus as possible.

"More than ever we need to find the centre, reach across the House and find a majority for what will be agreed. Anything will need legislation."

Home Secretary Sajid Javid said no deal would limit the government's ability to return illegal immigrants to other EU countries.

And Environment Secretary Michael Gove said that those considering rejecting Mrs May's agreement in the hope of securing a better deal "were like swingers in their mid-50s waiting for film star Scarlett Johansson to turn up on a date".

Something to cheer up the Brexiters,

Trump, the secret Brexit supporter

US downgrades EU diplomatic status in Washington
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46798861

Originally Posted by Switch

If the cap fits, and it certainly does in this case, then the evidence is there for you to ignore.

I think the evidence points more towards a lack of being able to implement a very poor decision by what can only be described as the worst Government in UK history.

Another defeat in the Commons last night, which was a step closer to seeing No-deal Brexit being squashed, a sign that Parliament, at least, hasn't lost its marbles even if the right wing Tories have.

One can only hope the May Agreement is killed off next, then, with no majority solution in the house, we may get sanity restored.

Originally Posted by Troy

I think the evidence points more towards a lack of being able to implement a very poor decision by what can only be described as the worst Government in UK history.

Another defeat in the Commons last night, which was a step closer to seeing No-deal Brexit being squashed, a sign that Parliament, at least, hasn't lost its marbles even if the right wing Tories have.

One can only hope the May Agreement is killed off next, then, with no majority solution in the house, we may get sanity restored.

The evidence points to nothing that you are suggesting.

It points to an unelected hierarchy in the heart of the Eutopian machinery, that is absolutely determined to punish the UK. It is evidence that the EU is a runaway train on a collision course with any of its member states who dare to even suggest that the time has come to leave a sinking ship.
Any voice that suggests reform or applying the brakes on this monolith is quickly admonished and silenced, simply to give the illusion of unity.

It is a strictly enforced unity, that will try to destroy anything that prevents it. They are openly admitting that the UK must be punished for even thinking about leaving.

The vote last night was effectively meaningless, even the treasury has said it is a minor inconvenience. I can understand the EU not wanting any positive publicity to support leaving, but why is May hiding all the positives about Brexit? What does she have to hide from?

Originally Posted by Switch

I can understand the EU not wanting any positive publicity to support leaving, but why is May hiding all the positives about Brexit?

Probably because there aren't any. Hasn't that sunk in yet?

Originally Posted by Troy

Another defeat in the Commons last night, which was a step closer to seeing No-deal Brexit being squashed, a sign that Parliament, at least, hasn't lost its marbles even if the right wing Tories have.

They were checking the brakes

Originally Posted by Troy

Probably because there aren't any. Hasn't that sunk in yet?

Just because you are pro Eutopia, you have been brainwashed into ignoring them. You actually know they exist and what they are, you have just stopped listening to the logical side of your brain.
Its a bit like butters believing that he is intelligent, when everyone knows he isn’t.

The biggest positive for me, is that the commission is supremely overconfident, and Juncker never bothered to get life rafts for the inevitable sinking of SS Eutopia.

No one will die, but Juncker and his commission will be covered in ignominy for all of history.