Thread: What Will It Take To Get Rid Of ISIS?

Simple.
Big Pharma, a term of reference, implies mega-industrial scale pharmacy, manufacturing and distributing all forms of pharmaceuticals ona global scale.

Working for Olin I was involved in accounting for both incoming and outgoing goods, as well as later on shuffled up into credit control only.

Initially, in training, I worked both bought and credit ledgers and cross refered to sales and costs dept.

I knew how much material, of what form, the cost etc came in, how much went out as manufactured product and so on, right down to how much profit we made per pill of Raudixin a heart tab popular at the time.


The factory floor was awash with chemicals of all forms, and the Raudixin (speed) tabs powder was regularlly snaffled by workers,.....lots.

Around once a month, office staff were given the dubious privilege of being guinnea pigs for our latest product, paid anything up to 2 weeks wages a go, three or four days with a patch on your arm or a shot, then checked out.

That was R and D of ER Squibb Olin Mathieson UK. back then, manufacturing chemists.

We sold bulk all sortsa medicines/products to most major global warehouses and distributors, we were all together essentially Big Pharma, along with all other phrmacological mamufacturers and chemical suppliers in the world at that time.

Big pharma exists, it's a sel-protecting trading froup wiyh fingers in so many pies you'd never believe.

Up, behind it all is ICI and Olin.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Pharma_conspiracy_theory

Ok, maybe I was mixing your definition of the large pharmaceutical industry with wikipedia's definition above. Thanks for the clarification.

No argument that drugs have financed various violent factions, but this would be more illegal drugs than legal, to my knowledge. By diminishing the Afghanistan illegal drug trade, it should also diminish ISIS is what I am hearing then. Not really part of the legitimate pharmaceutical business or Big Pharma, IMO.

This article from the Al Jazeera site gives a fairly good overview of the "image" war being waged; largely on social media. It has become increasingly difficult to know what is real or what is faked. These hearts and minds campaigns are being steadily refined in order to win support and recruits. Some of it is really quite clever and some is just stupid, but it's all pretty dangerous stuff and likely to get a lot of people killed.


While there is an ongoing battle for Tikrit, where the Iraqi and Iranian militaries and affiliated Iraqi Shia and Sunni militias are trying to expel ensconced ISIL fighters, resulting in mounting casualties and the physical destruction of its urban landscape, a simultaneous battle is being waged over a cyber-terrain and media landscape, resulting in the creation of protagonists that both Iraqis and Iranians can root for.

Recent images of Iraq's Angel of Death, a fighter in one of the Shia militias taking part in the fight for Tikrit, is the latest Ramboesque figure to emerge in what has become a decade-long conflict in Iraq. International media has picked up this story, as part of its fascination with the rise of ISIL and its use of new social media.

The Angel of Death is newsworthy because he represents a high-profile cyber counter-attack. However the focus on this persona brings up a greater issue of the conflation between cyber-space and actual violent conflict, where it has become more-and-more difficult to separate reality from its mediated version in cyber-space.

Folk heroes or villains

Since the fall of Baghdad in 2003, the ensuing chaos has produced a wide arrange of folk heroes or villains depending on one’s perspective.


Before the cult around American Sniper emerged, the Iraqi insurgents had their own Baghdad Sniper, a man named Nizar al-Jibouri, affiliated with the Islamic Army in Iraq. This Sniper not only targeted American soldiers, but filmed the deaths of his victims.

The insurgent group released several videos, including the view from his sniper scope, giving a first-person shooter video game perspective. It even created a docudrama video of a day in his life of being a sniper. The insurgent group realised his kills were not enough for the insurgency. It was the production value associated with those kills that built up his myth-like status.

Even Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Jordanian-born progenitor of ISIL, brandished his Rambo-like persona during the early days of the Iraqi insurgency with videos of him firing off bursts from a rifle, which inadvertently backfired in the PR insurgency wars, as commentators in the US military gave press briefings to show his poor handling of his firearm. Comedians also poked fun of the fact that despite his traditional garb, he was wearing either Adidas or New Balance sneakers.

New media environment

ISIL emerged in Iraq in a new media environment, where it could showcase its fighters with new media like Youtube, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. One of its most prominent "poster boys" was Shakir Wahib, who the international media became fixated with, as he was one of the few ISIL fighters who was filmed without a mask, even when he killed three Syrian truck drivers. His ISIL fan base called him the "Desert Lion", and in this regard, Iraq's Angel of Death emerged as Iraq's hero to combat this Lion.

ISIL seeks to dominate, shape and control cyberspace, yet at the same time it has become a space to resist ISIL, through creating virtual heroes such as the Angel of Death, even though he is a real person, Ayyub Faleh al-Rubaie, who discusses in an APF interview the banal aspects of his life, such as dropping his kids off to school.

The emergence of the Angel of Death in cyber-space has been newsworthy, but he also represents a greater Shia cyber-narrative that came about after the rise of ISIL, with Facebook pages stressing unity between Iraq's Shia and its Christian minorities, targeted since the summer of 2014. Shia militias have used cyber-space to wish Iraq's Christians a Merry Christmas and Christian militias even use the logos of the Shia militias on their own Facebook pages.

Iraq's Angel of Death became newsworthy, partly due to his huge fan base that emerged as a result of the "Likes" he received on Facebookand his picture showing up on the Facebook page reportedly belonging to Iran's special forces, at a time when the Iraqi state should ideally downplay the role of Shia Iran in fighting for a predominantly Sunni Tikrit.

Cyber-hero for Iraqis

The emergence of this cyber-hero for Iraqis illustrates media theorist Marshall McLuhan's oft-quoted phrase, "The Medium is the Message". Irrespective of the messages sent by ISIL or Iraq's Shia militias, the medium in and of itself also contains a message.

The message of the medium in this case is that in the age of the easy edit and photoshop it becomes difficult to determine the reality on the ground in Iraq. ISIL's telegenic fighter was reported dead in 2014, but was able to resurrect himself by releasing a photo on the internet.

The message of the medium is that there is a battle over the loyalty of the youth, using their media such as Facebook, for their allegiance. The message of the medium is that terrorism is post-modern, where ISIL's notions of "Jihad", "Caliphate", sexual slavery, the use of child soldiers, and the destruction of Iraq's pre-Islamic heritage can be communicated in 140 characters, or a single image, to be "Liked" in a macabre, transnational referendum.

Combatting terrorism has become post-modern, whether it is Shia militias creating a hero to be equally Liked, to the State Department developing a campaign of tweets to discredit ISIL.

Of course, in this emergence of new technologies and the blurring of reality, there is a reality beyond any doubt on the ground that includes Iraqis and Syrians who have been displaced and dispossessed since the Syrian civil war and the rise of ISIL.
Loyalties, whether to ISIL or the forces combatting ISIL, are not determined by social media, but by long-term processes of socialisation and identity formation. Nevertheless, what social media has done has allowed those outside of the war zone to become voyeurs to this conflict, and has facilitated the creation of virtual personas to celebrate or condemn.

Koman, it is tough to counter social media popularity and I would imagine everything is faked to gain approval from the media followers.

I predict that social media will continue to play a much larger role in global politics, which will be impossible to halt. Just look how Thailand has shown their fear about this phenomenon.

To destroy ISIS, one would think social media would have to be controllable, which it is not. Also difficult to stop supply lines of money in that part of the world. No real solutions to their demise have been offered up yet, only unattainable theories.

It appears we are all in for a very long and difficult time.

Originally Posted by rickschoppers

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Pharma_conspiracy_theory

Ok, maybe I was mixing your definition of the large pharmaceutical industry with wikipedia's definition above. Thanks for the clarification.

No argument that drugs have financed various violent factions, but this would be more illegal drugs than legal, to my knowledge. By diminishing the Afghanistan illegal drug trade, it should also diminish ISIS is what I am hearing then. Not really part of the legitimate pharmaceutical business or Big Pharma, IMO.

All that I've read so far about Afghanistan opium is that it's still in production, and that it flourishes there increasingly because it's protected by both US/coalition forces and Taliban.

More opium and opiates are produced there than can supply the black market drug addict client base, the rest goes to industry, bulk.

Big Pharma can't afford to lose its supply base, and along with Afghanistan's so far untapped mineral wealth, I don't see any sort of a final USA/UK pullout from there.

Taliban nearly completely stopped opium production there before USA moved in.

ENT, all I read states that the legal opium comes from India, Turkey and Australia (mainly Tasmania). If Afghan opium is reaching the legal market, could you supply a link that validates this?

No doubt Afghanistan is producing most of the world's opium, but I can not find any proof that it is reaching the legal drug companys licensed to produce pharmaceutical products.

Originally Posted by rickschoppers

ENT, all I read states that the legal opium comes from India, Turkey and Australia (mainly Tasmania). If Afghan opium is reaching the legal market, could you supply a link that validates this?

No doubt Afghanistan is producing most of the world's opium, but I can not find any proof that it is reaching the legal drug companys licensed to produce pharmaceutical products.

The US consumes something like 80% of the worlds painkiller production.
Most of that is now non morphine based pills such as Oxy.
Tasmania supplies 85% of the wolds Oxy base as well as other opium sourced alkaloids.
Most of the Afghan crop probably goes to heroin production

Originally Posted by rickschoppers

Originally Posted by Necron99

Originally Posted by rickschoppers

ENT, all I read states that the legal opium comes from India, Turkey and Australia (mainly Tasmania). If Afghan opium is reaching the legal market, could you supply a link that validates this?

No doubt Afghanistan is producing most of the world's opium, but I can not find any proof that it is reaching the legal drug companys licensed to produce pharmaceutical products.

The US consumes something like 80% of the worlds painkiller production.
Most of that is now non morphine based pills such as Oxy.
Tasmania supplies 85% of the wolds Oxy base as well as other opium sourced alkaloids.
Most of the Afghan crop probably goes to heroin production

Necron, Oxycodone is an opioid based narcotic as is morphine, so I am not understanding your statement. I would agree with the rest, but I am not sure about the statistics.

As the US is committed to buying 80% of it's morphine base from India and Pakistan, the Tasmanian fields were set up to mostly produce other narcotic akaloids.
Much of the crop is so low in Morphine base that it can't be used to make opium or heroin. The plants have been bred specifically to produce higher quantities of thebaine, the base for the Oxy family of drugs.
Other crops are tweaked the other way, about a 1/4 of the worlds morphine and codeine come from Tas.

What I saying is with so much of the worlds legal market wrapped up in just a handful of producers, I don't think "big pharma" is quietly slipping 1000's of tons of Afgan opium in the back door. If they need more, it just too simple to up the legal production.

Got it, and I agree. FYI, morphine based is not really an accepted medical term. Opioid based would be more correct.

Originally Posted by rickschoppers

Got it, and I agree. FYI, morphine based is not really an accepted medical term. Opioid based would be more correct.

No, it's specific, for the production of morphine only, the US is contracted to source 80% of it's base from India and Pakistan.
For other drugs made from Opioid alkaloids they can buy elsewhere.
It was part of a deal made with the UN decades ago to control poppy production in those two countries.

Interesting since morphine usage has declined over the past several years. It has taken a back seat to Meperidine, Fentanyl and other opioid painkillers within hospitals. Some of this could be related to the high incidence of allergic reactions with injectable morphine and for whatever reason, physicians seem to resist its usage more now than in the past.

If what you are saying is true, the morphine specific opium should have seen a decline in demand.

As stated, drones have become a big part of many countries arsenal. Personally, I would rather have a drone shot down than an aircraft with loss of life.

Besides, how do you think many terrorist leaders have been snuffed. Drones also give a picture of the battlefield and are used to observe rescue aircraft when they pick up wounded soldiers and civilians.

Drones will continue to increase and they have done a good job of tracking ISIS movement.

OhOh, the large part of using drones is surveillance. The last I checked surveillance does not equal the removing of ISIS from the countries you mentioned. It is a definite advantage to have eyes on the ground versus not having them.

Originally Posted by rickschoppers

Interesting since morphine usage has declined over the past several years. It has taken a back seat to Meperidine, Fentanyl and other opioid painkillers within hospitals. Some of this could be related to the high incidence of allergic reactions with injectable morphine and for whatever reason, physicians seem to resist its usage more now than in the past.

If what you are saying is true, the morphine specific opium should have seen a decline in demand.

It didn't much.

Other opium based derivatives saw a marked increase in production, along with increased Afghan production, now at all time highs.

Of course, Afghan opium production is often omitted in reports, which often only include the licit growers,
Tasmania. = 78%
Spain = 20%
France = 1%
Others = 1%
Total production < 500 tons annually, of thebaine/paramorphine/codeine equivalent extract, from the whole plant, sans seed, poppy straw.(2010)

Afghanistan produced 6,400 tons of opium in 2014, an increase of 17% from 5,500 in 2013.

6,400 tons, 90% of world's illicit opium
Ten times more than licit opium/opiate derivatives.

That's only going by discoverable accounts.

All guarded by USA/coalition forces.

So, according to figures gleaned, < 90% + of all global opium is illicitly produced, in Afghanistan guarded and in the hands of USA/coalition/Taliban/Afghan control.

So who's buying?

^
Don't know. You tell me.

Since USA and Europeans eat something like 83% of licit prescription opiates produced by Big Pharma et al , (like 3-5% of global population on opiates) plus whatever slice of the illicit market it can consume, by far one of the greater consumers of such is USA, followed by the rest of Europe/1st world countries.

Third world production of opiates and other drugs far exceeds local demand, so refined opium is sought at a higher rate, locally among growers, mainly heroin freeks, or they go on a yaba binge for a break, Laos all grow it, China grows licit opium and Laos and Burma grow heaps, illegally, it's unaccountable, so there's no market for Afghan opium in South or SE Asia, only the refined forms.

Afghan opium feeds ME and European and US consumers, and there ain't enough of them to consume the 6,400 tons produced there a year, now.

The surplus goes to the best bid, so it goes to the biggest bucks, with safeguards of supply.

The biggest financial clout in the field is US/coalition, so likely a preferred bidder.

Big Pharma would never overlook a cheap source of bulk supply.

Pigs will fly before then.

You may be right ENT and I can not say you are wrong since I do not know for sure.

In all my years in the pharmacy business, I never asked a drug rep where they obtained their raw material for opioid type drugs. I do know that there were several occasions that we could not obtain morphine, meperidine and other opiods due to the lack of raw materials. In fact, if you go on the FDA drug shortage list right now, you will see many drug shortages due to lack of raw materials.

Is this thread still about ISIS and still in Speakers Corner?

Most Afghan opium goes directly to the Russian black market were heroin addiction is rife.

Yes, thank you Neverna. We did get off topic a bit when financing ISIS through selling drugs came up.

I still have not seen a comprehensive idea of how to stop ISIS. Yes, it could be stopped through muslim intervention and pressure but how can that be achieved?

It can also be stopped by halting supplies and money flow, but I have not heard how that will happen.

It could also be slowed if social media were to censor its recruitment efforts, which will never happen.

How can these radicals be stopped, or does anyone really care if they are stopped or not?

Originally Posted by rickschoppers

You may be right ENT and I can not say you are wrong since I do not know for sure.

In all my years in the pharmacy business, I never asked a drug rep where they obtained their raw material for opioid type drugs. I do know that there were several occasions that we could not obtain morphine, meperidine and other opiods due to the lack of raw materials. In fact, if you go on the FDA drug shortage list right now, you will see many drug shortages due to lack of raw materials.

We knew our sources at Sqibb/OLin, it was all cash up on the nail each month.
Which is why I ask about the Afghan supply.

It's reputedly all smuggled out, and again, reputedly makes its way to the underground ME and USAEuro drug trade, again, reputedly via US personnel et al in Afghanistan.

I have no way of corroberating these anecdotal claims, but there's an awful great tonnage of O unaccounted for somewhere betwixt Big Pharma and Afghanistan published figures.

There aren't enough heroin addicts around to account for it.

It's gone somewhere else, and historically, it all went to the big drug houses.

There's no reason to think that the supply line terminated elsewhere.