Thread: Former Russian spy critically ill in Britain after exposure to unidentified substance

Can we say "Veiled threat""?

Russian state television has warned “traitors” and Kremlin critics that they should not settle in England because of an increased risk of dying in mysterious circumstances.
“Don’t choose England as a place to live. Whatever the reasons, whether you’re a professional traitor to the motherland or you just hate your country in your spare time, I repeat, no matter, don’t move to England,” the presenter Kirill Kleymenov said during a news programme on Channel One, state TV’s flagship station.
“Something is not right there. Maybe it’s the climate. But in recent years there have been too many strange incidents with a grave outcome. People get hanged, poisoned, they die in helicopter crashes and fall out of windows in industrial quantities,” Kleymenov said.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...tle-in-england

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Can we say "Veiled threat""?

If you're a moron, sure.

Originally Posted by Neo

If you're a moron, sure.

You'll have no problem then.

Okey dokey, that rules out seafood poisoning then.

*Snigger*

Skripals poisoned with nerve agent, chemical arms watchdog confirms
Anthony Deutsch, Guy Faulconbridge
5 MIN READ


THE HAGUE/LONDON (Reuters) - The lethal poison that struck down a former Russian spy and his daughter last month in England was a highly pure type of Novichok nerve agent, the global chemical weapons watchdog concluded on Thursday, backing Britain’s findings.


Sergei Skripal, a former colonel in Russian military intelligence who betrayed dozens of agents to Britain’s MI6 foreign spy service, and his daughter were found unconscious on a bench in the English cathedral city of Salisbury on March 4.


Britain blamed Russia for the poisoning and Prime Minister Theresa May said that the Skripals had been attacked with a military-grade nerve agent from the Novichok group of poisons, developed by the Soviet Union in the 1970s and 80s.


Moscow denied any involvement and suggested Britain had carried out the attack to stoke anti-Russian hysteria, but Britain asked the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) to check samples from Salisbury.


Testing by four laboratories affiliated with the global chemical weapons watchdog confirmed Britain’s findings and showed that the toxic chemical was “of high purity.”


The chemical weapons watchdog did not explicitly name Novichok in its published summary, say where the poison may have come from or assign blame for the attack. But it did confirm Britain’s analysis about the substance that had been used.


“The results of analysis by OPCW-designated laboratories of environmental and biomedical samples collected by the OPCW team confirm the findings of the United Kingdom relating to the identity of the toxic chemical,” the published summary said.


https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-br...HJ1L0?rpc=401&

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

....that's an admission that they suspect a chemical weapons attack, and an admission that they think that the Syrians have them.

You yourself post the quote which includes the word "suspected". Does that not raise doubts in your mind.

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said on Facebook that “smart” missiles would destroy any evidence of a suspected chemical weapons attack.

That's not an acceptance of the allegation.

Originally Posted by tomcat

...yes: they have to deal with investigative reporters

How many were allowed to the hospital?
(same as to hospital with Litvinenko - the world knows only the one photo on his deathbed...)

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Okey dokey, that rules out seafood poisoning then.

From your link:

"British Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson hailed the findings. “There can be no doubt what was used and there remains no alternative explanation about who was responsible – only Russia has the means, motive and record,” Johnson said.
A German Foreign Ministry spokesman said the OPCW confirmed Britain’s analysis. “It is now up to Russia to finally play a constructive role and answer the open questions,” he said.


Juergen Hardt, foreign policy spokesman for Chancellor Angela Merkel’s conservatives, said the report provided “certainty” that the Skripals were poisoned by Novichok.


“This finding massively increases the pressure on Moscow to fully explain the exact course of events and background of the first nerve agent attack on European soil,” he said. "

The bumbling buffoon calls for Russia to confess where no evidence exists that Russia is the only possible source, that Russia is the only party who has a possible reason and is the only country in the world that has possibly used chemical weapons.

Then the German pipes up with the first use of CW in Europe. I suppose the WWI and WWII usage by all parties have been forgotten. But I suppose the claims that Russia has previously used such weapons in Europe, have been accepted as propaganda.

For both parties to be so accurate as to which CW was allegedly used, must indicate they and UK PD have samples to compare them with. If not a research project to confirm the affects of the CW would have to be undertaken which I suggest would take more than a week or so. I suggest that if there are now three proven sources the UK PD lab and the two unidentified OPCW testing labs, then it can in fact be created.

One wonder which of the other 20 plus OPCW labs also have the same ability and/or samples in store?

Will the Met police investigation have access to all these labs.

The BBC Worlds Service is now suggesting that Russia has an illegal "stockpile", which is defined by the OPCW as 1,000s of tons, as any country who has a competent lab may have. As we know although there are 20 plus OPCW labs spread around the world, Russia has been cleared by previously by OPCW and at least two, Israel and ameristan have not. That's not including any country with unlimited budget and a desire.

The name of the source awaits the Met investigation to publish it's report.

Originally Posted by Klondyke

How many were allowed to the hospital?
(same as to hospital with Litvinenko - the world knows only the one photo on his deathbed...)

Even if they were, do they know who the patients were or could others be easily introduced to stand-ins. The only persons would know are her family members who as we know, from the Met police, the alleged Russian citizen has stated "she" does not want to see them.

Is she or her handlers afraid the stand-in might be exposed?

"a highly pure type of cock and bullshit"

Ftyfy harry.. if it's such a highly pure military grade how come the Skripals are still alive.? Please explain

Originally Posted by OhOh

The OPCW were requested by Russia and Syria at the latest UNSC meeting, they will produce the evidence, they will investigate the evidence and the OPCW report will be published and distributed.

Russia's hand is nowhere in that process. Other than offering some protection of being bombed/struck by missiles, by ameristan and it's vassals.

Correct, Russia's hand is nowhere in that process. Because their draft attempt at taking charge was rightfully knocked back.

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Correct, Russia's hand is nowhere in that process. Because their draft attempt at taking charge was rightfully knocked back.

a good point

I am getting confused OhOh. So can you tell me your theory of what happened? Also your reasons and evidence for your theory? So far as an impartial observer I would say the balance of probabilities firmly points towards Russia.

OhOh
"Even if they were, do they know who the patients were or could others be easily introduced to stand-ins. The only persons would know are her family members who as we know, from the Met police, the alleged Russian citizen has stated "she" does not want to see them.
Is she or her handlers afraid the stand-in might be exposed?"

You are now suggesting there is a "stand in" daughter. Again evidence? If so, would it not be advantageous for the "stand in" to directly implicate the Russians? Her only dissenting statement was to say she disagreed with what her Aunt had said. She did not reject help from the Russian embassy which would have indirectly pointed towards Russia, but said she did not need help at the moment.
What would they do when the "real Yulia" surfaces or do you think she has been "disposed of". In which case they will eventually have to get the "stand in" to "disappear" or risk exposure. The conspiracy is quickly getting very messy and harder to contain. Of course then dear old Dad cannot be allowed to survive and expose this conspiracy. Now a very messy peace of British Anti Russian propaganda. Maybe there is a few holes in my logic so feel free to point them out with evidence to the contrary.
On the other side I am sure if Yulia's Aunt suspected her own country, she would have felt free to say Vlad tried to have my relo's murdered. I'm sure that would have enhanced her lifes' prospects in Russia no end.

Craig Murray's described the pressure on Porton Down to establish that a nerve agent was used in the alleged Skripal attack. I use 'alleged attack', because there is a fair chance that this was no attack, only a serious food poisoning from the very start.
The Skripals had a seafood risotto pesce with king prawns, mussels and squid rings at Zizzi, as reported here in the Daily Mail on March 6.
This is a dish with a well known reputation as a source of shellfish poisoning.
The Skripals were okay when they arrived, okay when they left, and passed out 40 minutes later on the bench with symptoms similar to a paralytic reaction from shellfish poisoning (PSP):

Symptoms of PSP could begin within a few minutes and up to 10 hours after consumption.Symptoms of PSP can include:
...
...
Respiratory difficulty, salivation, temporary blindness, nausea and vomiting may also occur.
In extreme cases, paralysis of respiratory muscles may lead to respiratory arrest and death within two to twelve hours after consumption. Seriously affected people must be hospitalized and placed under respiratory care.

Another official PSP Fact Sheet (pdf) provides:

What is the treatment?Unfortunately, there is no antidote for PSP toxins; however, supportive medical care can be life saving. For example, persons whose breathing muscles become paralyzed can be put on a mechanical respirator and given oxygen to help them breath, and people who develop a cardiac arrhythmia (abnormal heart rhythm) can be given medications to stabilize their heart rhythm.

The similarity with symptoms and effect derived from a nerve agent are striking, but no surprise:
In fact the substance at work in a case of paralytic seafood poison is a neurotoxin called Saxitoxin (STX) which is among the most potent poisons found in nature. It works the same way as a nerve agent: It acts on the neurons, preventing normal cellular function and leading to paralysis and in worst case death. In fact Saxitoxin is so potent that it was weaponized by the U.S. and used as a chemical weapon - a nerve agent.
The U.S. developed Saxitoxin into a chemical weapon in the 1960s. The U.S. military designation is TZ. It was also used by the CIA for covert operations and liquidations as evidenced by the Church commission - see: Excerpts of CIA inventory 1, 2.
Serotoxin is registered by the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) as evidenced in the Wikipedia article Saxitoxin. The agent stays active even after boiling or steaming.
Now back to Porton Down and the pressure to come up with the 'traces of a nerve agent'. The Saxitoxin could obviously pass as a nerve agent, because it is a nerve agent - but without mention of its origin - the food poisoning.
The nerve agent claim was released by police on March 7, three days after the incident.
According to the Daily Mail article mentioned above, the hospital alarmed the police the day after, on March 5, when the staff became aware of Skripal's 'spy credentials', probably through BBC which first brought the news. This means Porton Down at the most had two days from first tests to the conclusion 'nerve agent' announced on the 7th.
This also implies that the hospital probably treated the Skripals for a food poisoning from the start, until they became aware of Skripals credentials the day after. This fits with the letter to the Times from Stephen Davies, the hospital doctor.
(The timeline used above is from the Associated Press' Key moments in the case of former spy Sergei Skripal.)
The media storm had been going on for a week when Theresa May on March 12 entered parliament and announced the 'Novichok'. The blame had been on Russia from the first moment.
Speculation:
Now suppose the government in the meantime had become aware they had a weak case from the start - because they had rushed Porton Down to a premature conclusion?
There would be no way back for May. The die had been cast. The government had walked out on a limb from the start, now they had to continue the theater by naming the agent.
No nerve agent would suit their narrative better than 'Novichok'. Developed in USSR, a substance with some foggy features and many variants - as opposed to other more well known agents with distinct features. And most important an agent that is not listed in OPCW and which was deliberately chosen to confuse. [b adds: 'Novichok' was also known to the British and U.S. public as a 'fearsome Russian agent' through a current spy drama on TV. It increased the propaganda value.]
The initial reluctance to involve the OPCW also fits into this picture: the decision to involve OPCW came after May had landed the Novichok claim in parliament on March 12.
The day before, on March 11, police found traces of a nerve agent in the Zizzi restaurant.

Note that the police inside is unprotected - biggerDid they find the mussel in the risotto? Or 'Novichok'?
More than three weeks into the investigation this is, as far as I know, the only confirmed police find of traces of the nerve agent. Zizzi fits in perfectly as the origin of the poisoning considering the 40 minutes it took before the Skripals passed out on the bench. Though I wonder how a "military grade nerve agent", destined to kill instantly on the battlefield, took that long to incapacitate the Skripals.
I am no doctor, nor a specialist in chemistry - only a retired journalist working with open sources. There are so many curiosities with this case, so many speculations, ...
re Craig Murray's described the pressure on Porton Down to establish that a nerve agent was used in the alleged Skripal attack. I use 'alleged attack', because there is a fair chance that this was no attack, only a serious food poisoning from the very start.
The Skripals had a seafood risotto pesce with king prawns, mussels and squid rings at Zizzi, as reported here in the Daily Mail on March 6.
This is a dish with a well known reputation as a source of shellfish poisoning.
The Skripals were okay when they arrived, okay when they left, and passed out 40 minutes later on the bench with symptoms similar to a paralytic reaction from shellfish poisoning (PSP):

Symptoms of PSP could begin within a few minutes and up to 10 hours after consumption.Symptoms of PSP can include:
...
...
Respiratory difficulty, salivation, temporary blindness, nausea and vomiting may also occur.
In extreme cases, paralysis of respiratory muscles may lead to respiratory arrest and death within two to twelve hours after consumption. Seriously affected people must be hospitalized and placed under respiratory care.

Another official PSP Fact Sheet (pdf) provides:

What is the treatment?Unfortunately, there is no antidote for PSP toxins; however, supportive medical care can be life saving. For example, persons whose breathing muscles become paralyzed can be put on a mechanical respirator and given oxygen to help them breath, and people who develop a cardiac arrhythmia (abnormal heart rhythm) can be given medications to stabilize their heart rhythm.

The similarity with symptoms and effect derived from a nerve agent are striking, but no surprise:
In fact the substance at work in a case of paralytic seafood poison is a neurotoxin called Saxitoxin (STX) which is among the most potent poisons found in nature. It works the same way as a nerve agent: It acts on the neurons, preventing normal cellular function and leading to paralysis and in worst case death. In fact Saxitoxin is so potent that it was weaponized by the U.S. and used as a chemical weapon - a nerve agent.
The U.S. developed Saxitoxin into a chemical weapon in the 1960s. The U.S. military designation is TZ. It was also used by the CIA for covert operations and liquidations as evidenced by the Church commission - see: Excerpts of CIA inventory 1, 2.
Serotoxin is registered by the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) as evidenced in the Wikipedia article Saxitoxin. The agent stays active even after boiling or steaming.
Now back to Porton Down and the pressure to come up with the 'traces of a nerve agent'. The Saxitoxin could obviously pass as a nerve agent, because it is a nerve agent - but without mention of its origin - the food poisoning.
The nerve agent claim was released by police on March 7, three days after the incident.
According to the Daily Mail article mentioned above, the hospital alarmed the police the day after, on March 5, when the staff became aware of Skripal's 'spy credentials', probably through BBC which first brought the news. This means Porton Down at the most had two days from first tests to the conclusion 'nerve agent' announced on the 7th.
This also implies that the hospital probably treated the Skripals for a food poisoning from the start, until they became aware of Skripals credentials the day after. This fits with the letter to the Times from Stephen Davies, the hospital doctor.
(The timeline used above is from the Associated Press' Key moments in the case of former spy Sergei Skripal.)
The media storm had been going on for a week when Theresa May on March 12 entered parliament and announced the 'Novichok'. The blame had been on Russia from the first moment.
Speculation:
Now suppose the government in the meantime had become aware they had a weak case from the start - because they had rushed Porton Down to a premature conclusion?
There would be no way back for May. The die had been cast. The government had walked out on a limb from the start, now they had to continue the theater by naming the agent.
No nerve agent would suit their narrative better than 'Novichok'. Developed in USSR, a substance with some foggy features and many variants - as opposed to other more well known agents with distinct features. And most important an agent that is not listed in OPCW and which was deliberately chosen to confuse. [b adds: 'Novichok' was also known to the British and U.S. public as a 'fearsome Russian agent' through a current spy drama on TV. It increased the propaganda value.]
The initial reluctance to involve the OPCW also fits into this picture: the decision to involve OPCW came after May had landed the Novichok claim in parliament on March 12.
The day before, on March 11, police found traces of a nerve agent in the Zizzi restaurant.

Note that the police inside is unprotected - biggerDid they find the mussel in the risotto? Or 'Novichok'?
More than three weeks into the investigation this is, as far as I know, the only confirmed police find of traces of the nerve agent. Zizzi fits in perfectly as the origin of the poisoning considering the 40 minutes it took before the Skripals passed out on the bench. Though I wonder how a "military grade nerve agent", destined to kill instantly on the battlefield, took that long to incapacitate the Skripals.
I am no doctor, nor a specialist in chemistry - only a retired journalist working with open sources. There are so many curiosities with this case, so many speculations, ...
Here in Norway we have an expression called blodtåke - best translated as blood fog - when all the media are rushing blindly in one direction, without asking the most elementary questions.
After I wrote this they found 'Novichok' on the door of the Skripals' home, which makes it even more unlikely, considering the time frame.
Did they have to divert attention from the restaurant as origin of the poisoning?
There are of course some holes in the above - just regard this as an idea to go along the line of food poisoning.in Norway we have an expression called blodtåke - best translated as blood fog - when all the media are rushing blindly in one direction, without asking the most elementary questions.
After I wrote this they found 'Novichok' on the door of the Skripals' home, which makes it even more unlikely, considering the time frame.
Did they have to divert attention from the restaurant as origin of the poisoning?
There are of course some holes in the above - just regard this as an idea to go along the line of food poisoning.

MoA - The Best Explanation For The Skripal Drama Is Still ... Food Poisoning

March 8	-	Poisioned British-Russian Double-Agent Has Links To Clinton Campaign
March 12	-	Theresa May's "45 Minutes" Moment
March 14	-	Are 'Novichok' Poisons Real? - May's Claims Fall Apart
March 16	-	The British Government's 'Novichok' Drama Was Written By Whom?
March 18	-	NHS Doctor: "No Patients Have Experienced Symptoms Of Nerve Agent Poisoning In Salisbury"
March 21	-	Russian Scientists Explain 'Novichok' - High Time For Britain To Come Clean (Updated)
March 29	-	Last Act Of 'Novichok' Drama Revealed - "The Skripals' Resurrection"
March 31	-	Hillary Clinton Ordered Diplomats To Suppress 'Novichok' Discussions
April 3	-	Operation Hades Blamed Russia - A Model For The 'Novichok' Claims?
April 4	-	It's The Cover-Up" - UK Foreign Office Deletes Tweet, Posts False Transcript, Issues New Lies
April 5	-	Novi-Fog™ In Fleet Street - Truth Cut Off

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

MoA - The Best Explanation For The Skripal Drama Is Still ... Food Poisoning

Er..... no it isn't, and it never was.

Originally Posted by Hugh Cow

I am getting confused OhOh.

Join the club. Being confused affects you as an individual. Having a nuclear armed countries accusing another nuclear armed country of an act of war affects many people. There is a difference. My opinion and possible scenarios expressed here affects nobody.

Unfortunately UK has presented a case which is full of holes. The masses are beginning to wonder.

As regards to the Russian lady, we have a statement issued by the Met police. The statement is a piece of paper, presumably signed by the lady. Have you ever heard of forgeries or a person signing something under duress? Obviously by your reaction such an act by a nuclear armed clique, kept in a position of power by bribing some elected politicians, not. Review a court house, you know where cases of dispute are judged. Witnesses are cross examined, facts challenged and lawyers sum up, hoping to sway the jury. A jury of citizens, from the population, retires to consider and eventually returns a verdit. That procedure is the basis of law.

I have seen nothing like that in this case and as such IMHO, the due process has not been followed.

This announcement could be reinforced if the lady herself made an appearance in front of MSM. No questions, no pressure. Care to explain why this has not happened. Or let enquiring minds postulate. Such a simple course of action, quick to organise and would put many minds at rest.

Are you personally content with 'arry's acceptance that "secrets that cannot be presented to the citizens" override due process? We have seen many instances in history that government allegations have been at best sexed up, at worst deliberate lies to protect a ruling clique's position.

Are you OK with a UK citizen being kidnapped by Thai police, hidden, incommunicado in a Thai military base and the Thai government issuing a statement "Nothing is going one here, go away"? I suggest most would be outraged, but not you or 'arry, it seems.

Originally Posted by Hugh Cow

The conspiracy is quickly getting very messy and harder to contain.

The purported UK authorities, NHS, Police, political leaders "facts" likewise. IMHO.

Originally Posted by OhOh

The masses are beginning to wonder

...rather grandiose self-reference...

Originally Posted by tomcat

...rather grandiose self-reference...

For "masses", read "tin foil hat wearing whackjobs".

Originally Posted by tomcat

...rather grandiose self-reference...

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

For "masses", read "tin foil hat wearing whackjobs".

A YouGov poll, presumably a cross section of the UK citizens or some might say, "The masses".



YouGov/Times poll on military intervention in Syria

12 Apr 2018


"This morning there was a new YouGov/Times poll asking about whether Britain should take part in military intervention in Syria.
A solid majority of the public believe that there probably was a chemical weapons attack by the Syrian government or their allies – 61% agree, compared to 5% who believe that the attack was a fabrication, and 5% who believe neither claim. 29% do not know.


This does not, however, translate into support for military action. By 51% to 17% people oppose sending Britain and allied troops into Syria to remove Assad.

The more likely option of a cruise missile attack on Syrian military targets also faces fairly solid opposition – just 22% would support it, 43% are opposed.


60% of people say they would support enforcing a no-fly zone over Syria, though given the opposition to other military options one suspects this could be because a “no fly zone” is a rather peaceful sounding euphemism for something that would in practice also involve attacking anti-air defences or the Syrian air force. The full tabs for the polling are here."

UK Polling Report

Originally Posted by OhOh

A YouGov poll, presumably a cross section of the UK citizens or some might say, "The masses".



YouGov/Times poll on military intervention in Syria


12 Apr 2018


"This morning there was a new YouGov/Times poll asking about whether Britain should take part in military intervention in Syria.
A solid majority of the public believe that there probably was a chemical weapons attack by the Syrian government or their allies – 61% agree, compared to 5% who believe that the attack was a fabrication, and 5% who believe neither claim. 29% do not know.


This does not, however, translate into support for military action. By 51% to 17% people oppose sending Britain and allied troops into Syria to remove Assad.

The more likely option of a cruise missile attack on Syrian military targets also faces fairly solid opposition – just 22% would support it, 43% are opposed.


60% of people say they would support enforcing a no-fly zone over Syria, though given the opposition to other military options one suspects this could be because a “no fly zone” is a rather peaceful sounding euphemism for something that would in practice also involve attacking anti-air defences or the Syrian air force. The full tabs for the polling are here."

UK Polling Report

Seems to me the masses have a pretty good idea.

A solid majority of the public believe that there probably was a chemical weapons attack by the Syrian government or their allies

The dumbing-down and deep conditioning continues....

Originally Posted by HuangLao

The dumbing-down and deep conditioning continues....

You can't get any dumber Jeff, but your hair probably does need a wash.

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

A solid majority of the public believe that there probably was a chemical weapons attack by the Syrian government or their allies

"Majority of public" where? The West? Also the East with China and Africa? South America either? What was what China said the other day about the West size? (my post few days ago)

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

For "masses", read "tin foil hat wearing whackjobs".

Is this thread harry you are the tin foil hat wearing whackjob