Thread: Abhisit Vejjajiva has been invited to deliver a speech on good governance

Originally Posted by hazz

I would agree with much of what you have said, apart from the first paragraph. Someone attacked the thai army, started a firefight during which someone killed and incapacitated most of the officers in charge of the operation. That combined with the film footage is very good evidence of the existence of the mysterious 'men in black'. I suppose you could suggest the the thai officers killed and injured were perhaps part of a suicide pack, or perhaps playing a game of pass the grenade. The evidence for the existence of the men in black is every bit as good as the evidence that some soldiers spent several hours shooting up a temple and the people hiding in it in may.

Thanks Hazz. The key word is "someone" . We don't really know. And we don't really know who the men in black were. We sort of know who the army were - uniformed generally (at least at street level- we don't know a lot about sniper positions that the army or -which I find less credible - the men in black may have taken above street level) but there was one photograph I remember of a non-uniformed and armed man running with the army. Sorry, I can't give a reference at the moment. If I searched (with my poor skills for days, I might find it but it is out there.Perhaps somebody else may have it to hand and be able to supply it.) Many theories have been proposed. A credible theory - I think ; others may not - has been proposed by Robert Amsterdam on the basis of evidence by Master Sergeant Ray Witty. I have never seen any detailed rebuttal of this evidence. It's persuasive to me, but what does that matter? I can be persuaded by anything . I know zero about ballistics, logistics and all that stuff. BUt I wonder why I haven't seen a serious examination of this theory by other experts, perhaps the Thai Army. I have seen dismissals of it but no real examination of it. In the absence of such an examination, I am persuaded by it. You can see it here. Expert Report by Joe Ray Witty

^Unlike SD and bettyboo I don't really get to meet the scum that run this country, though I am attending the wedding one of the wife's richer relatives who's MP later this month, so there's a chance I might meet some proper scum. I do get to see how they run things within government and and idea of how the tick from their little helpers. So in all honesty I may have a little more insite than most... but not that much more.

My speculation comes from logic deduction and extrapolation of what happened. Why change a winning combination, 2009 was that and 2010 started off in the same way. Specualation is a strong word, and I have logic and reason behind what I believe.

when one considers how the army operation started on april 10th, it is very clear that the army command believed they were facing the same people under the same circumstances that they facing in 2009.... they used the same techniques... techniques that made them very vulnerable to what the men in black had waiting for them. Its hardly speculative to suggest that they were expecting to repeat 2009 and that they were oblivious to what they were walking into.

However talking of idle speculation; I have come to the conclusion that almost all of the violence in april/may 2010 was ultimately orchestrated by the military, in the form of the army command and thai army proper fighting and killing for ababsit and the elites he represents. and rest by major kitty, his boys and probably class 10 officers, and their men in black fighting and killing for thaksin and the elite's he represents. And until the people of this country relise just how seriously they get roggered by these people and they take charge of their own parties and government... nothing is going to change for the better.

This should be at the ICC, abisit, thaksin and numerous army officers and soldiers should all be there explaining how and why so many people died reportedly to simply bring an election forward 9 months.
It won't because every thai government since 2002 has refused to sign thailand up to the ICC, presumably because what the ICC see's as a crime they see as their right. and its why PT will never sign up... dispite its potential to deter bloody coup's. So the best we can hope for is abisit on his own

Originally Posted by hazz

the same people under the same circumstances that they facing in 2009

I disagree. It was a year later and that in itself changes things

This is all pointing to the end. Burning of Central. It was all Red Terrorism? Which gave government authority to pursue any or whatever scheme they could think of and they did. But back to Burning of Central. Security cameras show rioters and men in black - now then comes interesting bit, one of greatest and largest shopping centres in Asia did indeed have very advanced fire suppression systems. Only that military-appointed government shut water and power down.

This is exactly like any of the 9/11 threads.... With the exception that, while terribly biased, tomta agrees that he is biased and tries to make a reasonable argument (albeit at times blurts into emotional partisan discounting of evidence).

Nevertheless, I actually appreciate tomta's contributions - while nostromo, Tom Sawyer, and the other redshirters are just the usual irrational trolls.

Originally Posted by tomta

Originally Posted by Cthulhu

Yes, I agree that Supreme Aerobics Commander Seh Daeng deserved exactly why he received. __________________

You approve of assassination? You approve of murder?

Yes, in the case of people that are better off dead, it is a good thing to put them down like a rabid dog.

Originally Posted by tomta

Originally Posted by longway

I dont see anyone here denying the army killed most of the people who died ( you misunderstand the poster you quoted),

If I did misunderstand the post I was quoting, let me rectify that. I do not think that anyone here on this forum believes that the army was not responsible for at least some of the deaths and injuries. My main point is that against all logic and evidence the army continues to deny this. Because they are clearly lying in this instance, I feel more suspicious and less inclined to believe other things they say. The army is a major witness to what happened and they are not a credible witness. But thye are an important and influential witness that controls much of the information about these events.

You are new to Thailand, right? Your first trip?

Originally Posted by Cthulhu

You are new to Thailand, right? Your first trip?

The logical fallacy of ad hominem.

Yes, I'm new to Thailand. I've only been here for 11 years.

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Don't feed the Daffy Duck troll Tomta

Correct.

We all need to be careful, cognizant and informed about their diversionary techniques.

Diversionary pathways such as:

> simplifying Constitutional reforms to Thaksin, leading into Thaksin-hater threads.

> Steering the conversation away from pro-coupist atrocities at R'song

> sucking one into a debate trying to equate pro-coupist assaults at R'song to the feeble fightback from those being attacked, by magnifying the fightback and minimizing, or not even showing the military attack.

> Characterizing typical demonstrator initiatives as being anarchic.

I'm sure some of you can add more. these are the ones that are top-of-mind.

Originally Posted by Cthulhu

Originally Posted by tomta

Originally Posted by Cthulhu

Yes, I agree that Supreme Aerobics Commander Seh Daeng deserved exactly why he received. __________________

You approve of assassination? You approve of murder?

Yes, in the case of people that are better off dead, it is a good thing to put them down like a rabid dog.

Let's think about this for a while.


I am quite sure you mean "rabid dogs" to be put down are the reds and farmers in northeast and north (although, surprising for you it must be, reds or their ideals are supported by many poor, middle class and rich across the country, including Bangkok).

Eh, when you put down the farmers, it does not make difference to you if you only eat air-flown Japanese cucumbers and buy Chinese fake rolexes. Don't get me wrong, I love Japanese cucumber.

Originally Posted by nostromo

I am quite sure you mean "rabid dogs" to be put down are the reds and farmers in northeast and north

No, I was referring only to one pecific person, hence my intential use of the singular "rabid dog" - so nice of you to attempt to put incorrect words in my mouth, though.

Originally Posted by Calgary

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

"...........the temple including the elevated walkways and Skytrain tracks. To suggest some other group might have been firing from there is yellow-chink-make-believe stupidity.

My family was in that Wat to the bitter end.

Touching.... but you weren't.

Originally Posted by tomta

Yes, I'm new to Thailand. I've only been here for 11 years.

... to hear you talk like you expect ANYONE to take responsibility for ANYTHING in Thailand, sounds like a newbie on his first visit to Thailand.

Originally Posted by Cthulhu

Originally Posted by tomta

Yes, I'm new to Thailand. I've only been here for 11 years.

... to hear you talk like you expect ANYONE to take responsibility for ANYTHING in Thailand, sounds like a newbie on his first visit to Thailand.

If you do not like the country, you are free to leave. I suggest russia would be a good place for you, oh now they would just shoot you after you said 12 words

Originally Posted by nostromo

Originally Posted by Cthulhu

... to hear you talk like you expect ANYONE to take responsibility for ANYTHING in Thailand, sounds like a newbie on his first visit to Thailand.

If you do not like the country, you are free to leave. I suggest russia would be a good place for you, oh now they would just shoot you after you said 12 words

I was talking to tomta - and kids are not supposed to interrupt adults, so, shush!

Originally Posted by tomta

It became absolutely clear that Col. Samsern was lying as time went by. And the story changed as the day went on and it became absolutely clear that the army was firing real bullets. The army is only using blanks changed to the army is only shooting overhead to the army is only using rubber bullets through various configurations as the day went ahead.

Strangely, on this day, i don't remember even registering or knowing of the deaths of the army guys. My bias was to the redshirts and I was thinking of the stuff that was being done to them. I was emotionally engaged and I had a party that I was supporting.So, my testimony is quite suspect. I was looking from one side as we probably all do.

But I still maintain that, if you were to examine the TV and radio tapes of that day ( which no doubt could be done) an objective researcher would find that the army (the only explict story I waS hearing) clearly lied.

As I say, I was not there, I got my story from a bunch of sources, all of which might be wrong and all of which were changing. But the sources, I received proved this, the army lied.

Hi Tomta

I deleted some of your post above for brevity, but yes, absolutely this is also my recollection. And I know for sure, at that time, I posted (on Teakdoor) the video of France24 as soon as I saw it. This was the close-up video of the two soldiers clearly firing live rounds horizontally toward the crowd (of presumably reds if anyone wants to get really pedantic). That cameraman (Canadian guy) was shot three times in the next altercation as the army moved in to break up the reds' demo. He was shot next to Lumpini park - in broad daylight - by the army and there is no question about who shot him. He was shot several times and seriously injured - but lived.

Reading his posts he does not give much value to life, perhaps he is Thai

Originally Posted by tomta

Originally Posted by Cthulhu

Yes, I agree that Supreme Aerobics Commander Seh Daeng deserved exactly why he received. __________________

You approve of assassination? You approve of murder?

No he is just Daffy

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Originally Posted by tomta

It became absolutely clear that Col. Samsern was lying as time went by. And the story changed as the day went on and it became absolutely clear that the army was firing real bullets. The army is only using blanks changed to the army is only shooting overhead to the army is only using rubber bullets through various configurations as the day went ahead.

Strangely, on this day, i don't remember even registering or knowing of the deaths of the army guys. My bias was to the redshirts and I was thinking of the stuff that was being done to them. I was emotionally engaged and I had a party that I was supporting.So, my testimony is quite suspect. I was looking from one side as we probably all do.

But I still maintain that, if you were to examine the TV and radio tapes of that day ( which no doubt could be done) an objective researcher would find that the army (the only explict story I waS hearing) clearly lied.

As I say, I was not there, I got my story from a bunch of sources, all of which might be wrong and all of which were changing. But the sources, I received proved this, the army lied.

Hi Tomta

I deleted some of your post above for brevity, but yes, absolutely this is also my recollection. And I know for sure, at that time, I posted (on Teakdoor) the video of France24 as soon as I saw it. This was the close-up video of the two soldiers clearly firing live rounds horizontally toward the crowd (of presumably reds if anyone wants to get really pedantic). That cameraman (Canadian guy) was shot three times in the next altercation as the army moved in to break up the reds' demo. He was shot next to Lumpini park - in broad daylight - by the army and there is no question about who shot him. He was shot several times and seriously injured - but lived.

I seem to recall he was a Canadian, Nelson Rand. Gladly not shot in the head. He is a war veteran now and all the best for him

Originally Posted by Cthulhu

Originally Posted by nostromo

Originally Posted by Cthulhu

... to hear you talk like you expect ANYONE to take responsibility for ANYTHING in Thailand, sounds like a newbie on his first visit to Thailand.

If you do not like the country, you are free to leave. I suggest russia would be a good place for you, oh now they would just shoot you after you said 12 words

I was talking to tomta - and kids are not supposed to interrupt adults, so, shush!

Very droll, or not. Now there is antonov leaving for moscow in the early hours and you can still make it. Scramble!

Originally Posted by tomta

Originally Posted by hazz

the same people under the same circumstances that they facing in 2009

I disagree. It was a year later and that in itself changes things

why the selective quotes tom? Ive quoted the whole statement below. Its quite clear that I am discussing what the army believed they were facing.... and not the real nature of the redshirts.

So is this the result of selective reading on your part or selective quoting to help you put words in my mouth.

Originally Posted by hazz

it is very clear that the army command believed they were facing the same people under the same circumstances that they facing in 2009.... they used the same techniques... techniques that made them very vulnerable to what the men in black had waiting for them.

Regarding the differences between 2009 an april 2010, there were massive differences. the read shirts were expecting a repeat of 2009 and were ready for it and far more importunely there were people present who were very happy to escalate the violence to engaging in firefights with the thai army and killing/disabling the officers in command of the operation. That was a major escalation in violence and resulted with an inevitable eaculation from the army.

As I have said these people were key to the protest continuing beyond april 10th, but at the cost of initiating the chain of events that lead to most if not all of the deaths in april/may and arguably elevated the protests to an insurrection.

Personally the people who arranged for these 'men in black' to engage the thai army on april 10th have as much explaining to do as abisit. and the only people who would have reason to do that are people who would gain from replacing the dem government with a PT government. If you can offer some better ideas for who put them there... I would like to head them

Originally Posted by Cthulhu

With the exception that, while terribly biased, tomta agrees that he is biased and tries to make a reasonable argument (albeit at times blurts into emotional partisan discounting of evidence).

I said I was biased; you "paraphrased" this into "terribly biased". Please don't twist my words.I am happy to have a discussion with you but I would prefer that the things I say are not twisted.