Oh come on Hazz. Someone lobbed or "DROPPED" a grenade in the middle of Khun hi-so officer that killed him and injured others. But you are way off the mark on the Skytrain shootings. As mentioned before, the army CONTROLLED the entire area around the temple including the elevated walkways and Skytrain tracks. To suggest some other group might have been firing from there is yellow-chink-make-believe stupidity. Not worthy of your better posts if I may say say so.
Thanks Hazz. The key word is "someone" . We don't really know. And we don't really know who the men in black were. We sort of know who the army were - uniformed generally (at least at street level- we don't know a lot about sniper positions that the army or -which I find less credible - the men in black may have taken above street level) but there was one photograph I remember of a non-uniformed and armed man running with the army. Sorry, I can't give a reference at the moment. If I searched (with my poor skills for days, I might find it but it is out there.Perhaps somebody else may have it to hand and be able to supply it.) Many theories have been proposed. A credible theory - I think ; others may not - has been proposed by Robert Amsterdam on the basis of evidence by Master Sergeant Ray Witty. I have never seen any detailed rebuttal of this evidence. It's persuasive to me, but what does that matter? I can be persuaded by anything . I know zero about ballistics, logistics and all that stuff. BUt I wonder why I haven't seen a serious examination of this theory by other experts, perhaps the Thai Army. I have seen dismissals of it but no real examination of it. In the absence of such an examination, I am persuaded by it. You can see it here. Expert Report by Joe Ray WittyQuote:
Originally Posted by hazz
^Unlike SD and bettyboo I don't really get to meet the scum that run this country, though I am attending the wedding one of the wife's richer relatives who's MP later this month, so there's a chance I might meet some proper scum. I do get to see how they run things within government and and idea of how the tick from their little helpers. So in all honesty I may have a little more insite than most... but not that much more.
My speculation comes from logic deduction and extrapolation of what happened. Why change a winning combination, 2009 was that and 2010 started off in the same way. Specualation is a strong word, and I have logic and reason behind what I believe.
when one considers how the army operation started on april 10th, it is very clear that the army command believed they were facing the same people under the same circumstances that they facing in 2009.... they used the same techniques... techniques that made them very vulnerable to what the men in black had waiting for them. Its hardly speculative to suggest that they were expecting to repeat 2009 and that they were oblivious to what they were walking into.
However talking of idle speculation; I have come to the conclusion that almost all of the violence in april/may 2010 was ultimately orchestrated by the military, in the form of the army command and thai army proper fighting and killing for ababsit and the elites he represents. and rest by major kitty, his boys and probably class 10 officers, and their men in black fighting and killing for thaksin and the elite's he represents. And until the people of this country relise just how seriously they get roggered by these people and they take charge of their own parties and government... nothing is going to change for the better.
This should be at the ICC, abisit, thaksin and numerous army officers and soldiers should all be there explaining how and why so many people died reportedly to simply bring an election forward 9 months.
It won't because every thai government since 2002 has refused to sign thailand up to the ICC, presumably because what the ICC see's as a crime they see as their right. and its why PT will never sign up... dispite its potential to deter bloody coup's. So the best we can hope for is abisit on his own
Just a little addition to Ray Witty's report, Hazz. On the day of the Khok Wua incident when the shit started to hit the fan, I was a couple of miles away in Pinklao but I might as well have been 2000 miles but i was watching TV, listening to the radio, (my Thai's not good and my wife was translating intermittentlty and her English is better than my Thai but still not that good) and I was checking internet reports.
It became absolutely clear that Col. Samsern was lying as time went by. And the story changed as the day went on and it became absolutely clear that the army was firing real bullets. The army is only using blanks changed to the army is only shooting overhead to the army is only using rubber bullets through various configurations as the day went ahead.
Strangely, on this day, i don't remember even registering or knowing of the deaths of the army guys. My bias was to the redshirts and I was thinking of the stuff that was being done to them. I was emotionally engaged and I had a party that I was supporting.So, my testimony is quite suspect. I was looking from one side as we probably all do.
But I still maintain that, if you were to examine the TV and radio tapes of that day ( which no doubt could be done) an objective researcher would find that the army (the only explict story I waS hearing) clearly lied.
As I say, I was not there, I got my story from a bunch of sources, all of which might be wrong and all of which were changing. But the sources, I received proved this, the army lied.
I disagree. It was a year later and that in itself changes thingsQuote:
Originally Posted by hazz
This is all pointing to the end. Burning of Central. It was all Red Terrorism? Which gave government authority to pursue any or whatever scheme they could think of and they did. But back to Burning of Central. Security cameras show rioters and men in black - now then comes interesting bit, one of greatest and largest shopping centres in Asia did indeed have very advanced fire suppression systems. Only that military-appointed government shut water and power down.
This is exactly like any of the 9/11 threads.... With the exception that, while terribly biased, tomta agrees that he is biased and tries to make a reasonable argument (albeit at times blurts into emotional partisan discounting of evidence).
Nevertheless, I actually appreciate tomta's contributions - while nostromo, Tom Sawyer, and the other redshirters are just the usual irrational trolls.
Yes, in the case of people that are better off dead, it is a good thing to put them down like a rabid dog.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomta
You are new to Thailand, right? Your first trip?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomta
The logical fallacy of ad hominem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cthulhu
Yes, I'm new to Thailand. I've only been here for 11 years.
Correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer
We all need to be careful, cognizant and informed about their diversionary techniques.
Diversionary pathways such as:
> simplifying Constitutional reforms to Thaksin, leading into Thaksin-hater threads.
> Steering the conversation away from pro-coupist atrocities at R'song
> sucking one into a debate trying to equate pro-coupist assaults at R'song to the feeble fightback from those being attacked, by magnifying the fightback and minimizing, or not even showing the military attack.
> Characterizing typical demonstrator initiatives as being anarchic.
I'm sure some of you can add more. these are the ones that are top-of-mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer
My family was in that Wat to the bitter end.
So to hear PADite/Amart spin contradicting everything that happened is extremely vexing.
Let's think about this for a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by CthulhuYes, in the case of people that are better off dead, it is a good thing to put them down like a rabid dog.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomta
I am quite sure you mean "rabid dogs" to be put down are the reds and farmers in northeast and north (although, surprising for you it must be, reds or their ideals are supported by many poor, middle class and rich across the country, including Bangkok).
Eh, when you put down the farmers, it does not make difference to you if you only eat air-flown Japanese cucumbers and buy Chinese fake rolexes. Don't get me wrong, I love Japanese cucumber.
No, I was referring only to one pecific person, hence my intential use of the singular "rabid dog" - so nice of you to attempt to put incorrect words in my mouth, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by nostromo
Touching.... but you weren't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calgary
... to hear you talk like you expect ANYONE to take responsibility for ANYTHING in Thailand, sounds like a newbie on his first visit to Thailand.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomta
If you do not like the country, you are free to leave. I suggest russia would be a good place for you, oh now they would just shoot you after you said 12 wordsQuote:
Originally Posted by Cthulhu... to hear you talk like you expect ANYONE to take responsibility for ANYTHING in Thailand, sounds like a newbie on his first visit to Thailand.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomta
I was talking to tomta - and kids are not supposed to interrupt adults, so, shush!Quote:
Originally Posted by nostromoIf you do not like the country, you are free to leave. I suggest russia would be a good place for you, oh now they would just shoot you after you said 12 wordsQuote:
Originally Posted by Cthulhu
Hi TomtaQuote:
Originally Posted by tomta
I deleted some of your post above for brevity, but yes, absolutely this is also my recollection. And I know for sure, at that time, I posted (on Teakdoor) the video of France24 as soon as I saw it. This was the close-up video of the two soldiers clearly firing live rounds horizontally toward the crowd (of presumably reds if anyone wants to get really pedantic). That cameraman (Canadian guy) was shot three times in the next altercation as the army moved in to break up the reds' demo. He was shot next to Lumpini park - in broad daylight - by the army and there is no question about who shot him. He was shot several times and seriously injured - but lived.
Reading his posts he does not give much value to life, perhaps he is Thai:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomta
No he is just Daffy
I seem to recall he was a Canadian, Nelson Rand. Gladly not shot in the head. He is a war veteran now and all the best for himQuote:
Originally Posted by Tom SawyerHi TomtaQuote:
Originally Posted by tomta
I deleted some of your post above for brevity, but yes, absolutely this is also my recollection. And I know for sure, at that time, I posted (on Teakdoor) the video of France24 as soon as I saw it. This was the close-up video of the two soldiers clearly firing live rounds horizontally toward the crowd (of presumably reds if anyone wants to get really pedantic). That cameraman (Canadian guy) was shot three times in the next altercation as the army moved in to break up the reds' demo. He was shot next to Lumpini park - in broad daylight - by the army and there is no question about who shot him. He was shot several times and seriously injured - but lived.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CthulhuI was talking to tomta - and kids are not supposed to interrupt adults, so, shush!Quote:
Originally Posted by nostromoIf you do not like the country, you are free to leave. I suggest russia would be a good place for you, oh now they would just shoot you after you said 12 wordsQuote:
Originally Posted by Cthulhu
Very droll, or not. Now there is antonov leaving for moscow in the early hours and you can still make it. Scramble!
why the selective quotes tom? Ive quoted the whole statement below. Its quite clear that I am discussing what the army believed they were facing.... and not the real nature of the redshirts.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomta
So is this the result of selective reading on your part or selective quoting to help you put words in my mouth.
Regarding the differences between 2009 an april 2010, there were massive differences. the read shirts were expecting a repeat of 2009 and were ready for it and far more importunely there were people present who were very happy to escalate the violence to engaging in firefights with the thai army and killing/disabling the officers in command of the operation. That was a major escalation in violence and resulted with an inevitable eaculation from the army.Quote:
Originally Posted by hazz
As I have said these people were key to the protest continuing beyond april 10th, but at the cost of initiating the chain of events that lead to most if not all of the deaths in april/may and arguably elevated the protests to an insurrection.
Personally the people who arranged for these 'men in black' to engage the thai army on april 10th have as much explaining to do as abisit. and the only people who would have reason to do that are people who would gain from replacing the dem government with a PT government. If you can offer some better ideas for who put them there... I would like to head them
I said I was biased; you "paraphrased" this into "terribly biased". Please don't twist my words.I am happy to have a discussion with you but I would prefer that the things I say are not twisted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cthulhu